From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 00:16:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:16:16 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2012 at 21:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > In K&R C (I don't know from ANSI), it was recommended that an int be > whatever type was easiest to deal with. A short int could be the same > or smaller. A long int could be the same or larger. It was explicitly > stated that the only given was that the sizeof long int could not be > SMALLER than the size of int, and the sizeof in could not be smaller > than the sizeof short int. > > int and unsigned int are often the same size, but that was NOT > required. What about the numeric results of a shift on an int? I am aware of more than one system that handles ints as a special case of float; i.e., the int may be 64 bits long, but it's composed of a 16 bit exponent followed by a 48 bit mantissa. It would seem that shifting one of those would produce some "interesting" results. Similarly, sign-magnitude integer representations will give very different results after a shift than will shifting the normal two/s complement int. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 00:21:03 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:21:03 -0800 Subject: DAM it (Was: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: <20120131103343.A3717@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120130151142.A71505@shell.lmi.net> <20120131103343.A3717@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F28D9CF.1000704@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Depending on how you define GCR, it can easily be argued that MFM IS A > TYPE OF GCR. MFM is a (1,3) RLL group code. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 00:27:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:27:57 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F286AED.22351.2004163@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2012 at 23:37, Mouse wrote: > Well, it does have to be in the sense that it has to be possible to > (somehow) refer to individual chars... Thanks, C standards really came too late after K&R for me to take a big interest in them. While I can quote chapter and verse for FORTRAN and COBOL, the closest to "knowing" ANSI C rules is writing some back-end code. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 00:31:14 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 01:31:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201202010631.BAA05545@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > What about the numeric results of a shift on an int? [#4] The result of E1 << E2 is E1 left-shifted E2 bit positions; vacated bits are filled with zeros. If E1 has an E2 unsigned type, the value of the result is E1?2 , reduced modulo one more than the maximum value representable in the result type. If E1 has a signed type and nonnegative value, E2 and E1?2 is representable in the result type, then that is the resulting value; otherwise, the behavior is undefined. [#5] The result of E1 >> E2 is E1 right-shifted E2 bit positions. If E1 has an unsigned type or if E1 has a signed type and a nonnegative value, the value of the result is the integral part of the quotient of E1 divided by the quantity, 2 raised to the power E2. If E1 has a signed type and a negative value, the resulting value is implementation- defined. Unsigned ints, by definition, work as if they were simple binary (two's-complement, though that's not relevant for shifts). > Similarly, sign-magnitude integer representations will give very > different results after a shift than will shifting the normal two/s > complement int. Only for negative values, in which case the result can be whatever the implementation finds convenient (undefined or implementation-defined). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 00:40:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 01:40:48 -0500 Subject: Tek Triple Nickel, Re: OT: HP signature analyzer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F28DE70.2090602@neurotica.com> On 02/01/2012 12:26 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I know the feeling, but [throwing them out] wouldn't be unprecedented. > We (the museum - including me) throw out a lot of stuff and there are > widely-varying opinions about what to toss and what to keep. We have > very limited space (we just got rid of a couple of dozen low-end tube > scopes), the teks do take up a lot of space, and I'm one of the few/only > there who appreciates them. WTF? I thought the people there were largely technical. I'll happily get all the Tek iron out of their way, if you want to drop them a message for me. It's not as common for the rest of us as it is for Will D! > There have been a few occasions where things have been dumpstered before > I had an opportunity to divert them away from the dumpster, e.g. some > nixie-tube calcs, a SAGE 68000 system, etc. Good Heavens. That's unbelievable. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 00:42:30 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 22:42:30 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <20120131180523.GD30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F28AA9D.2090809@telegraphics.com.au> <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F28DED6.3080708@brouhaha.com> On 01/31/2012 07:35 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose it's even possible to create a C where word addresses == > char addresses; the char being aligned in a word, one char per word, > with the remainder of the word unsued. The remainder of the word can't be unused, it has to be a part of the char type, due to requirements on the semantics of the char* type (more on this later). But certainly for n>=16, it is possible to have the character and int size both have exactly n bits. > So does the difference between to void* pointers necessarily equate > to a count of chars between those addresses? Take the case of one > char per word above, for example. The representation of a void* is unspecified, and does not have to be the same as a char*, and you're not allowed to subtract them. It is required that all other data types be representable as an array of char, and it is required that the void* pointer can contain the value of any other pointer type, so void* has to functionally be a superset of char*, but no other pointer type needs more information storage than a char*, so the representations of char* and void* are usually identical. On machines that don't have native byte addressing, the char* and void* pointers are typically implemented as a composite of a native pointer and a byte index. This means that sizeof(char*) and sizeof(void*) may be larger than sizeof(int*) or any other pointer type. If you store an char* (that was not originally an int*) into a void* pointer, then try to cast it to int*, the results are undefined, and the pointer cast itself could crash, even if you don't dereference the pointer. Casting some other type to an int* then back has undefined results; you are *not* guaranteed to get a valid pointer back, let alone the original pointer. > Do char and int addresses have to share the same space? No, but the char* has to be able to point to any C type, so if int and char have separate address spaces, char* has to be able to point into both. This is what allows memcpy() to work for any C type. > Or can chars > and ints enjoy separate addressing spaces? Do addressing spaces need > to be compatible? Any two types other than char could be in separate address spaces, but a char* has to be able to point into any of them. > (I think about low-end PIC 8-bit and AVR where > data stored in code space as constants don't have the same > granularity. > The usual implementations of C on Harvard-architecture processors like the 8-bit PIC and AVR are not complaint with the C standard. For instance, GCC for the AVR requires a special declaration to get a char* that has the correct C semantics of being able to point to anything (i.e., constant data that the compiler/linker has put into program space), and has a huge runtime penalty since the code at runtime has to distinguish between pointers into program space and data space. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 01:00:10 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:00:10 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202010442.XAA02010@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <4F28B50E.6000406@brutman.com> <201202010442.XAA02010@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F28E2FA.5060902@brouhaha.com> On 01/31/2012 08:42 PM, Mouse wrote: > The latter certainly is; there need not be _any_ integer type that's > the same size as a pointer, though on most machines there will be. > (Indeed, I _think_ there's no need that there be any integral type > large enough to hold a pointer....) Correct. ISO/IEC 9899:1999 section 7.18.1.4 states that the integer types intptr_t and uintptr_t can hold the value of a void* (and hence, the value of any pointer type), but that these types are optional. *If* the implementation has intptr_t and uintptr_t, then the same properties should hold for intmax_t and uintmax_t, since these are guaranteed to be at least as large as any other integer types. However, if the implementation does not provide intptr_t or uintptr_t, then intmax_t and uintmax_t aren't guaranteed to be able to hold pointer values. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 01:02:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:02:23 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F28E37F.7070503@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Are there any particular C rules saying that types long, int and char > must be integral multiples of one another. Only that all other types (not just integer types) must be an integral multiple of the size of a char. Section 6.2.6.1 paragraph 4. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 01:23:41 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:23:41 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202010631.BAA05545@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010631.BAA05545@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F2877FD.21063.233462E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 1:31, Mouse wrote: > Only for negative values, in which case the result can be whatever the > implementation finds convenient (undefined or implementation-defined). So, on a system with, say, sign-magnitude arithmetic, masking the sign off after every operation to force a positive result is perfectly legitimate way to implement the unsigned type. Must C language elements be represented by binary numbers? I've read and heard that it's impossible, but is it really? Suppose that a machine operated natively in decimal mode. Logical operation (shift, & | ~ ^) could be implemented as either arithmetic (left-shift by doubling; right by halving) or by table lookup or even conversion to a simply binary form on which the operation would be performed, then converted back to decimal. Would that machine conform to the C standard? Can a ones-complement machine conform to the C standard? In other words, could one elminate -0 from signed arithmetic results and end up with a conforming machine? --Chuck P.S. Forgive me, but since I'm talking wtih someone who knows, I can get these nagging questions authoritatively answered. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 01:27:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:27:04 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sort of. Are there any particular C rules saying that types long, > int and char must be integral multiples of one another. For > instance, could one have a char of 16 bits, an int of 21 bits and a > long of 29 bits? On 01/31/2012 09:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Absolutely. Not in ISO C. All types have to be a multiple of the size of the char type, which must be at least 8 bits. You could have 8-bit char, 24 bit short, 40 bit int, and 48 bit long. You can't have a 21 bit int, unless the char type is 21 bits, because 21 doesn't have any factor n such that 8 <= n < 21. > In K&R C (I don't know from ANSI), it was recommended that an int be > whatever type was easiest to deal with. ISO C section 6.2.5 paragraph 5 says about the int type: A ??plain?? int object has the natural size suggested by the architecture of the execution environment (large enough to contain any value in the range INT_MIN to INT_MAX as defined in the header ). > A short int could be the same or smaller. Section 6.2.5 paragraph 8 and section 6.3.1.1 together require the sizes to obey the relationship: 1 == sizeof(char) <= sizeof(short) <= sizeof(int) <= sizeof(long) <= sizeof(long long) Section 6.2.5 paragraph 6 requires that the unsigned types have the same storage and alignment requirements as the corresponding signed types, so the above relationship also holds for the unsigned types. I just learned, somewhat to my surprise, that ISO C *requires* that there be an integer type of at least 64 bits. This requirement is in sections 7.18.1.2 and 7.18.1.3, on minimum-width integer types and fastest minimum-width integer types, which require an implementation to provide the int_least64_t, uint_least64_t, int_fast64_t, and uint_fast64_t types, and in section 7.18.2.5, which gives requirements for INTMAX_MIN, INTMAX_MAX, and UINTMAX_MAX based on having at least 64 bits. I wonder how many C implementations fail to be standard-conformant due to this requirement? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 01:26:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 02:26:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F28DED6.3080708@brouhaha.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120131180523.GD30381@brevard.conman.org> <4F28AA9D.2090809@telegraphics.com.au> <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com> <4F28DED6.3080708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201202010726.CAA06776@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The representation of a void* is unspecified, and does not have to be > the same as a char*, Um... 6.2.5 Types ... [#26] A pointer to void shall have the same representation and alignment requirements as a pointer to a character type. > Any two types other than char could be in separate address spaces, Not quite; there are certain pairs of types which are required to be "the same". Continuing the above quote: Similarly, pointers to qualified or unqualified versions of compatible types shall have the same representation and alignment requirements. All pointers to structure types shall have the same representation and alignment requirements as each other. All pointers to union types shall have the same representation and alignment requirements as each other. Pointers to other types need not have the same representation or alignment requirements. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 01:32:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:32:23 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202010550.AAA04943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com> <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <201202010550.AAA04943@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F28EA87.7010401@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote: > >> For instance, could one have a char of 16 bits, an int of 21 bits and >> a long of 29 bits? > Sort of. > > You could have a char of 16 bits, an int of 21 significant and 11 > insignificant bits, and a long of 29 significant and 3 insignificant > bits. Good catch! I'd forgotten that integer types other than char and unsigned char are allowed to have padding bits. That's covered in section 6.2.6.2 of the ISO 9899:1999 standard. The no-padding requirement for unsigned char is explicitly stated, and the no-padding requirement for signed char follows from the that together with the requirements on the range of values of the signed char type. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 01:48:20 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2012 23:48:20 -0800 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2877FD.21063.233462E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010631.BAA05545@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2877FD.21063.233462E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F28EE44.6060707@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote: > Only for negative values, in which case the result can be whatever the > implementation finds convenient (undefined or implementation-defined). Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, on a system with, say, sign-magnitude arithmetic, masking the > sign off after every operation to force a positive result is > perfectly legitimate way to implement the unsigned type. > That's definitely not allowed for unsigned char, which is not allowed to have any padding bits. If an unsigned char has n bits, it must be able to represent all values from 0 to (2^n)-1. For the larger integer types it is possible, as all larger integer types are allowed to have padding bits. The requirement is that any bit that is a value bit (and not a sign bit or padding bit) in a signed type must "have the same value as the same bit in the object representation of the corresponding unsigned type" (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 section 6.2.6.2 paragraph 2) Due to the requirements for the integer size limits (limits.h, section 5.2.4.2.1), if you want to do that your short and integer will have to be at least 17 bits, long will have to be at least 33 bits, and long long will have to be at least 65 bits. This would be somewhat reasonable on an 18-bit machine or 36-bit machine, with 9-bit chars, and the other integer types being 18-bit, 36-bit, and 72-bit. However, I think most people would prefer an implementation where the unsigned integer types did not have padding bits, and could represent the full range possible with the width of the type. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 01:55:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 02:55:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2877FD.21063.233462E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com> <201202010631.BAA05545@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2877FD.21063.233462E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201202010755.CAA07693@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Must C language elements be represented by binary numbers? > I've read and heard that it's impossible, but is it really? Yes and no. They must be implemented in a way that looks like binary as far as the semantics visible to the abstract C machine are concerned. Whether the actual underlying storage mechanism is two-state or not is beyond the scope of the standard. (This is sometimes called the "as if" rule: everything else can be thrown out the window as long as the compiler and run-time (if applicable) arrange that it look as if the spec were being followed as far as C code can tell.) So, you can use decimal if you want, but you'll have to go through gyrations to make things like & and << and + operate _as if_ everything were actually binary. (This would probably be difficult, wasteful of storage, or both, especially considering the requirement that every object be viewable as an array of chars without loss of information. It would not be impossible.) 6.2.6.1 [#3] Values stored in unsigned bit-fields and objects of type unsigned char shall be represented using a pure binary notation. [#4] Values stored in non-bit-field objects of any other object type consist of n?CHAR_BIT bits, where n is the size of an object of that type, in bytes. ... > Can a ones-complement machine conform to the C standard? Yes. There are three allowed representations for signed integral types: two's complement, one's complement, and sign/magnitude. 6.2.6.2 [#2] For signed integer types, the bits of the object representation shall be divided into three groups: value bits, padding bits, and the sign bit. There need not be any padding bits; there shall be exactly one sign bit. ... ... If the sign bit is one, the value shall be modified in one of the following ways: -- the corresponding value with sign bit 0 is negated (sign and magnitude); -- the sign bit has the value -(2N) (two's complement); -- the sign bit has the value -(2N-1) (one's complement). Which of these applies is implementation-defined, as is whether the value with sign bit 1 and all value bits zero (for the first two), or with sign bit and all value bits 1 (for one's complement), is a trap representation or a normal value. In the case of sign and magnitude and one's complement, if this representation is a normal value it is called a negative zero. A "trap representation" is an arrangement of bits that does not represent a value of the relevant type, and is not necessarily operable on even to the extent of storing it: 6.2.6.1 [#5] Certain object representations need not represent a value of the object type. If the stored value of an object has such a representation and is read by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined. If such a representation is produced by a side effect that modifies all or any part of the object by an lvalue expression that does not have character type, the behavior is undefined. Such a representation is called a trap representation. For example, on that decimal machine, a C implementation may choose to use only values 0..7 of each digit, to store three bits of information. Any value with an 8 or 9 in it could then be a trap representation. (A trap representation does not have to actually trap; undefined behaviour can include doing something sensible to someone who knows what's really going on under the hood.) I *think* this would conform; I'll ask someone I know who knows this stuff better than I. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 1 02:07:24 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 03:07:24 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2866D1.40502@otter.se> References: <4F2866D1.40502@otter.se> Message-ID: <20120201080724.GA5852@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jonas Otter once stated: > At 11:21 AM -0500 1/31/12, Sean Conner wrote: > >> So now I'm wondering---besides Baudot, 6-bit BCD and EBCDIC, is > >there any > >>other encoding scheme used? And of Baudot, 6-bit BCD and EBCDIC, are > >there > >>any systems using those encoding schemes*AND* have a C compiler > >available? > >> > Not sure what you mean by 6-bit BCD? It's from the Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCD_%286-bit%29 -spc From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Feb 1 03:00:04 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:00:04 +0100 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every other as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also differs in many ways from existing machines. The purpose would be to show myself and others how un-portable portable code really is. I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" /Pontus From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 03:11:35 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 09:11:35 -0000 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F28EE44.6060707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <89AA4775C2CF4CB0A779275C355D990E@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: 01 February 2012 07:48 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems > > > Mouse wrote: > > > > Only for negative values, in which case the result can be > whatever the > > implementation finds convenient (undefined or > implementation-defined). > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > So, on a system with, say, sign-magnitude arithmetic, masking the > > sign off after every operation to force a positive result is > > perfectly legitimate way to implement the unsigned type. > > > That's definitely not allowed for unsigned char, which is not > allowed to > have any padding bits. If an unsigned char has n bits, it > must be able > to represent all values from 0 to (2^n)-1. > > For the larger integer types it is possible, as all larger > integer types > are allowed to have padding bits. The requirement is that > any bit that > is a value bit (and not a sign bit or padding bit) in a > signed type must > "have the same value as the same bit in the object > representation of the > corresponding unsigned type" (ISO/IEC 9899:1999 section > 6.2.6.2 paragraph 2) > > Due to the requirements for the integer size limits > (limits.h, section > 5.2.4.2.1), if you want to do that your short and integer > will have to > be at least 17 bits, long will have to be at least 33 bits, and long > long will have to be at least 65 bits. This would be somewhat > reasonable on an 18-bit machine or 36-bit machine, with 9-bit > chars, and > the other integer types being 18-bit, 36-bit, and 72-bit. > > However, I think most people would prefer an implementation where the > unsigned integer types did not have padding bits, and could represent > the full range possible with the width of the type. > > Can I suggest those interested in producing portable code take a read through "The Standard C Library" http://www.amazon.com/Standard-C-Library-P-J-Plauger/dp/0131315099 Which includes details on how to write a standard "C" libarary and the portablitity issues encountered in each routine. I see used copies are available for a modest sum, and I personally think it's a great read... Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 03:20:51 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 04:20:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201202010920.EAA09067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to > implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every > other as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also > differs in many ways from existing machines. I've often thought it would be useful to have such a thing, a "checkout" compiler which deliberately goes out of its way to break pretty much every not-promised thing it can. Efficiency would sufer, of course, but for these purposes that's a minor matter. > I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it > means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. Usually. It's _hard_ to do anything useful in a strictly conforming C program. And even strict conformance is no guarantee; whichever standard you pick, there will be compilers that predate it and/or ignore various aspects of it. I once used a language for an 8-bit microcontroller whose int was only 8 bits wide - obviously not, strictly, C, though the compiler vendor called it C and it wasn't _completely_ unreasonable of them; it was very very Cish. > E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" > "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" The Jargon File has an entry for "Berkeley Quality Software", which it says "usually has nonexistent, incomplete, or incorrect documentation, has been tested on at least two examples, and core dumps when anyone else attempts to use it". Far too much "portable" software appears to fit this description.... But, yeah, portability is always only relative. Even your example "portable regarding endianess" is only relative; does this putatively portable code actually work in unusual cases such as PDP-endian, or just the two common endiannesses? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Feb 1 03:43:38 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:43:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Isn't MFM just a special case of GCR? In that case, GCR is a RLL code in the sense of limiting the run length of successive zeroes. So at the end, everything's the same and we just have invented all those acronyms to make life more complicated ;-) Christian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 1 04:51:40 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 03:51:40 -0700 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F29193C.1050503@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/1/2012 12:27 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Sort of. Are there any particular C rules saying that types long, >> int and char must be integral multiples of one another. For >> instance, could one have a char of 16 bits, an int of 21 bits and a >> long of 29 bits? > On 01/31/2012 09:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Absolutely. > Not in ISO C. All types have to be a multiple of the size of the char > type, which must be at least 8 bits. You could have 8-bit char, 24 bit > short, 40 bit int, and 48 bit long. You can't have a 21 bit int, unless > the char type is 21 bits, because 21 doesn't have any factor n such that > 8 <= n < 21. I would suspect what the standard needed to read was. "Int's and long are 2^n characters wide, so that shifts can be used to scale indexes and other pointer data as well as ease in fetching non character data." I like that idea, a nice 48/24 bit cpu with 8 bit characters. The only problem is you have to do byte fetches, you cannot grab a words worth of data at once. I was looking at 'B' a few weeks ago, and that just requires a word length (32?) 36 bits long. Characters are packed 4 to a word. Ben. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 1 08:09:37 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:09:37 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/02/12 4:00 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to > implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every other > as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also differs in > many ways from existing machines. > Before the turn of the millennium this would have been redundant, as the differences between architectures and vendor compilers in that heterogeneous area were *quite* sufficient for portability proofs and disproofs. Look at the list of architectures supported by, say, Mathematica in 1990 or 1995. Of course, some still wrote code as if "all the world's VAX," followed by "all the world's a SPARC," and of course we all know what the world is now... That is the environment from which gcc was born. It is still amazing to me how completely gcc met its original goals, eventually supplanting major vendor compilers (which many hoped for, but few could have predicted in the 1980s). --Toby > The purpose would be to show myself and others how un-portable portable > code really is. > > I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it > means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. > > E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" > "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" > > /Pontus > From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 01:56:30 2012 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 01:56:30 -0600 Subject: cobalt qube In-Reply-To: <4F27A301.2080306@neurotica.com> References: <4F25B136.1010803@neurotica.com> <4F27A301.2080306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Well, after some pacing and considering, I bit the bullet and bought a qube 2. So far, I managed to track down a site holding the ISOs for the restore CDs, for now located at http://data.blueonyx.biz/ftp.cobalt.com/iso/(though mark warns me that these original software images are dated and have holes) and I also managed to find the power connector, Kycon KPPX-3P, mouser 806-KPPX-3P so I can build a proper power supply. On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 2:14 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 01/29/2012 05:43 PM, joe lobocki wrote: > >> I wanted to add one to my collection, but for what they sold for about two >> years ago, I decided against it. >> > > The MIPS-based Cobalt machines have a big following. I know probably a > dozen people who run NetBSD or Linux on them and use them for home servers > and network utility boxes. They're extremely power-efficient. That's why > their prices are high. > > > I also remember reading somewhere that telnet-ing (or some other hacking) >> into the qube voided the warranty... I could be off though. >> > > I don't remember anything at all like that. I do recall, though, that > they went out of their way to get people to configure the machines via > their (admittedly kinda neat) front-panel LCD and buttons, rather than > properly editing the config files like a grownup. > > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > New Kensington, PA > From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 1 08:34:31 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:34:31 -0600 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <201202011442.q11Eg3jJ079746@billy.ezwind.net> At 03:00 AM 2/1/2012, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it >means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. And then there's non-portable over time... if the language keeps changing, or compilers develop different habits, then what's the difference? - John From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Wed Feb 1 09:08:55 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:08:55 +0100 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <1328108935.23942.5.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> ons 2012-02-01 klockan 09:09 -0500 skrev Toby Thain: > Of course, some still wrote code as if "all the world's VAX," followed > by "all the world's a SPARC," and of course we all know what the world > is now... > > That is the environment from which gcc was born. It is still amazing to > me how completely gcc met its original goals, eventually supplanting > major vendor compilers (which many hoped for, but few could have > predicted in the 1980s). > > --Toby > > > The purpose would be to show myself and others how un-portable portable > > code really is. > > > > I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it > > means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. > > > > E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" > > "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" > > > > /Pontus > > > GCC = The commissioning engineers jive but for memory. The anecdote that DEC field engineers danced on SAIL's memory cabinets to find the wrinkles in her memory banks. For the case of gcc: a common sw whose deployment is good at finding bit errors in an PC:s memory. Compile gcc, and have gcc recompile itself at least four times, if the compile fails mysteriously (for example BUS ERROR), it is a big probability that the memory is shoot somewhere. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 10:00:36 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:00:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201202011600.LAA15718@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to >> implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every >> other as possible. [...] > Before the turn of the millennium this would have been redundant, as > the differences between architectures and vendor compilers in that > heterogeneous area were *quite* sufficient for portability proofs and > disproofs. Only with respect to some kinds of portability. For exmaple, I don't think anyone used byte sex other than big-endian, little-endian, and PDP-endian; a checkout compiler could use a byte order like 1423 or 2134 or 2413. As another example, consider 8-bit chars, but with 3-byte short, 5-byte int, and 7-byte long - I expect there's some code out there that would explode because long is not an integral number of ints or shorts - and it could use a byte order like 24513. Perhaps a stack that does not grow in a well-defined direction. That sort of thing. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:10:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:10:44 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F29193C.1050503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> <4F29193C.1050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7E824C18-682D-4E52-86B2-92B4A89745F6@gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 5:51 AM, ben wrote: > I like that idea, a nice 48/24 bit cpu with 8 bit characters. The only > problem is you have to do byte fetches, you cannot grab a words > worth of data at once. Well, Motorola's DSP56k isn't too far removed from that. It's a 24-bit CPU (with 56-bit accumulators), complete with a 24-bit bus which is word-addressed, so there are no byte fetches. It's been a while since I've done DSP56k work (and it was never in C), but I recall doing some gymnastics to make strings work nicely (without packing them very sparsely, anyway). - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 10:09:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:09:41 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 9:09 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 01/02/12 4:00 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> >> Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to >> implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every other >> as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also differs in >> many ways from existing machines. >> > > Before the turn of the millennium this would have been redundant, as the differences between architectures and vendor compilers in that heterogeneous area were *quite* sufficient for portability proofs and disproofs. Look at the list of architectures supported by, say, Mathematica in 1990 or 1995. > > Of course, some still wrote code as if "all the world's VAX," followed by "all the world's a SPARC," and of course we all know what the world is now... ARM? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 10:13:41 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:13:41 -0500 Subject: cobalt qube In-Reply-To: References: <4F25B136.1010803@neurotica.com> <4F27A301.2080306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <51E2B7B6-10FF-431F-8312-B7438DC3DB3D@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:56 AM, joe lobocki wrote: > Well, after some pacing and considering, I bit the bullet and bought a qube > 2. So far, I managed to track down a site holding the ISOs for the restore > CDs, for now located at > http://data.blueonyx.biz/ftp.cobalt.com/iso/(though mark warns me that > these original software images are dated and > have holes) and I also managed to find the power connector, Kycon KPPX-3P, > mouser 806-KPPX-3P so I can build a proper power supply. Neat! I will put you in touch with a good friend of mine who has done (and continues to do) tons of stuff with these machines. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:49:24 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:49:24 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202011600.LAA15718@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <201202011600.LAA15718@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <266ECB79-62F4-46D7-A669-C9F1AD92A1CB@gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Mouse wrote: > Only with respect to some kinds of portability. For exmaple, I don't > think anyone used byte sex other than big-endian, little-endian, and > PDP-endian; a checkout compiler could use a byte order like 1423 or > 2134 or 2413. As another example, consider 8-bit chars, but with > 3-byte short, 5-byte int, and 7-byte long - I expect there's some code > out there that would explode because long is not an integral number of > ints or shorts - and it could use a byte order like 24513. Perhaps a > stack that does not grow in a well-defined direction. Now I want to make a compiler that stores items on the stack based on a PRBS sequence. You end up with guaranteed order within 2^n - 1 bytes, at least, and it would make most stack-smash exploits relatively difficult. - Dave From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 10:51:43 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:51:43 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 11:09 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Of course, some still wrote code as if "all the world's VAX," followed by "all the world's a SPARC," and of course we all know what the world is now... > > ARM? Well, it's heading that way, and I'll take that in a heartbeat over x86. ARMs have selectable endianness, too, though I can't recall an implementation that ran them big-endian. Anyone recall any? One of the things I loved about PowerPC was that the endianness was switchable at run-time (though I'm given to understand that never worked all that well) and there were penalty-free byte-reversed load and store instructions. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 12:00:34 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:00:34 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F297DC2.9050506@neurotica.com> On 02/01/2012 11:51 AM, David Riley wrote: > ARMs have selectable endianness, too, though I can't recall an > implementation that ran them big-endian. Anyone recall any? I do not. > One of the things I loved about PowerPC was that the endianness was > switchable at run-time (though I'm given to understand that never > worked all that well) and there were penalty-free byte-reversed load > and store instructions. Very nice. MIPS has selectable endianness as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 12:12:42 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:12:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > One of the things I loved about PowerPC was that the endianness was switchab$ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Compensating, > One of the things I loved about PowerPC was that the endianness was > switchable at run-time (though I'm given to understand that never > worked all that well) [...] Not surprising; it was never designed all that well. I once spent some time reading through the documentation for a particular PowerPC CPU (the 750, I think it was). Little-endian support was...incomplete, I would call it. Put the CPU into little-endian mode and you don't get a little-endian CPU; you get a big-endian CPU with some swizzling in the memory path, and the difference shows. It looked to me as though they wanted to be able to share data structures in memory between code running big-endian and code running little-endian without having to byte-swap when crossing the endianness boundary, and considered that more important than making little-endian mode a self-consistent little-endian machine. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 12:34:44 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:34:44 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2012, at 1:12 PM, Mouse wrote: >> One of the things I loved about PowerPC was that the endianness was switchab$ > > Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Given the option, gladly. Apple has apparently decided that they don't need a line wrap option in their mail client, which I otherwise very much prefer. Manual line wrap is problematic when there's no column position indicator. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 12:45:04 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 11:45:04 -0700 Subject: Well, that's depressing. In-Reply-To: <4F28C479.4000201@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F28C479.4000201@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <4F28C479.4000201 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > eBay item 320840589826. > > I suppose if anyone's looking for a Symbolics Ivory 2 CPU to play around > with (LispM on a chip) here's your chance. Sad to think about all the > machines these came out of... Since these chips were removed for recycling, they may be damaged by static charge effects since there was no concern for keeping them usable. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 12:47:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:47:55 -0500 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> On 02/01/2012 01:34 PM, David Riley wrote: > Apple has apparently decided that they don't need a > line wrap option in their mail client, which I otherwise > very much prefer. Manual line wrap is problematic when > there's no column position indicator. I switched to Thunderbird for precisely that reason. I really liked OS X's Mail.app for several years, but it just seemed to become less nice with each release. I wish they'd learn to just leave stuff the hell alone when it works well and does everything it needs to do. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 1 12:48:57 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:48:57 -0800 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F298919.5050802@bitsavers.org> On 2/1/12 10:12 AM, Mouse wrote: > It looked to me as though they wanted to be able to > share data structures in memory between code running big-endian and > code running little-endian without having to byte-swap when crossing > the endianness boundary It was put in for NT support, since NT had a lot of hard-coded knowledge that it was running on a little-endian architecture. Connectix used it for SoftPC until it disappeared in the G5. That was probably the biggest use of it in the MacOS world. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 12:54:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 10:54:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> > > Isn't MFM just a special case of GCR? On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > In that case, GCR is a RLL code in the sense of limiting the run length of > successive zeroes. That is correct. > So at the end, everything's the same and we just have > invented all those acronyms to make life more complicated ;-) That is correct. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:00:54 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 19:00:54 -0000 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <783CEA1556E34B60A72CE8A433EA1457@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus Pihlgren > Sent: 01 February 2012 09:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems > > > > Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to > implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from > every other > as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also > differs in > many ways from existing machines. > > The purpose would be to show myself and others how > un-portable portable > code really is. > > I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it > means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. > > E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" > "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" I guess that if you then tried to run these:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obfuscated_code And it failed you wouldn't know where to start. I especially like the 12 days of christmas... > > /Pontus > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 13:05:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 14:05:19 -0500 Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F298919.5050802@bitsavers.org> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F298919.5050802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F298CEF.7030304@neurotica.com> On 02/01/2012 01:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/1/12 10:12 AM, Mouse wrote: >> It looked to me as though they wanted to be able to >> share data structures in memory between code running big-endian and >> code running little-endian without having to byte-swap when crossing >> the endianness boundary > > It was put in for NT support, since NT had a lot of hard-coded knowledge > that it was > running on a little-endian architecture. That figures. > Connectix used it for SoftPC until it disappeared in the G5. That was > probably > the biggest use of it in the MacOS world. Ah-HA! So THAT'S why SoftPC never worked right on G5s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Feb 1 13:16:30 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 19:16:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/01/2012 01:34 PM, David Riley wrote: >> Apple has apparently decided that they don't need a >> line wrap option in their mail client, which I otherwise >> very much prefer. Manual line wrap is problematic when >> there's no column position indicator. > > I switched to Thunderbird for precisely that reason. I really liked OS X's > Mail.app for several years, but it just seemed to become less nice with each > release. I wish they'd learn to just leave stuff the hell alone when it > works well and does everything it needs to do. If both the sending and receiving client support format=flowed, then paragraph-length lines get rendered correctly regardless of differences in the sender's and receiver's screen width... Google tells me that apple mail does format=flowed by default, Eudora, Opera, Thunderbird and Hotmail all support it, and I know pine supports it (that's what I use). So, when David Riley sends mail from apple mail, what sort of client do you have to be using to have trouble reading paragraph-long lines? Alexey From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 13:26:06 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:26:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> > > Isn't MFM just a special case of GCR? On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Christian Corti wrote: > In that case, GCR is a RLL code in the sense of limiting the run length of > successive zeroes. MFM being a "special case" (one of many possible instances) of GCR, and MFM being a "special case" (one of many possible instances) of RLL, does NOT NECESSARILY imply logically that GCR and RLL are the same. (Want a Venn diagram how that could work as an intersection of the two?) The relationship between GCR and RLL is going to depend on how you define GCR (and, to a lesser extent, RLL). Both limit the number of consecutive 0 bits. However, GCR generally is table driven, based on only using bit patterns that can be written without adding any clock pulses, while RLL manipulates added clock bits placed between the existing bits to achieve the goal. Our definitions could be used to differentiate the two, OR to demonstrate the equality. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 13:38:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:38:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <783CEA1556E34B60A72CE8A433EA1457@EMACHINE> References: <783CEA1556E34B60A72CE8A433EA1457@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <20120201112852.L44692@shell.lmi.net> > Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to > implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every other > as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also differs in > many ways from existing machines. It would ALMOST be possible to implement a K&R C (which I call "C") on an ANALOG computer. But, ANSI-C (which I do NOT call "C") introduces MANY irrelevant, but prob'ly quite useful, restrictions that are neither present in K&R 1, nor in the spirit of C. K&R never claimed, nor implied that there was ANY portability in C. ANSI took that and created a NEW, DIFFERENT language that while recognizable in its heritage, was obviously NOT the same language. > I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it > means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. > E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" > "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" NOW, "portable to ALL platforms" means one flavor of Linux, Windoze XP, and Mac OSX. ONLY. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 13:40:44 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 11:40:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F284296.21998.162AF51@cclist.sydex.com>, <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120201113845.C44692@shell.lmi.net> > > In K&R C (I don't know from ANSI), it was recommended that an int be > > whatever type was easiest to deal with. > ISO C section 6.2.5 paragraph 5 says about the int type: K&R .NE. ANSI K&R .NE. ISO NOTE: "K&R" refers to edition ONE. Later, K&R wrote a different book to document a different language (ANSI-C) From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:42:06 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:42:06 -0500 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > If both the sending and receiving client support format=flowed, then paragraph-length lines get rendered correctly regardless of differences in the sender's and receiver's screen width... Google tells me that apple mail does format=flowed by default, Eudora, Opera, Thunderbird and Hotmail all support it, and I know pine supports it (that's what I use). So, when David Riley sends mail from apple mail, what sort of client do you have to be using to have trouble reading paragraph-long lines? Pretty sure I recall Mouse mentioning at one point that he wrote his own MUA (or maybe it was MTA? Maybe I dreamed the whole thing up?). That was my understanding of format=flowed, though, because this is a topic I've seen beaten to death on other lists. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 13:41:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:41:16 -0500 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> On 02/01/2012 01:34 PM, David Riley wrote: >>> Apple has apparently decided that they don't need a >>> line wrap option in their mail client, which I otherwise >>> very much prefer. Manual line wrap is problematic when >>> there's no column position indicator. >> >> I switched to Thunderbird for precisely that reason. I really liked OS X's Mail.app for several years, but it just seemed to become less nice with each release. I wish they'd learn to just leave stuff the hell alone when it works well and does everything it needs to do. > > If both the sending and receiving client support format=flowed, then paragraph-length lines get rendered correctly regardless of differences in the sender's and receiver's screen width... Google tells me that apple mail does format=flowed by default, Eudora, Opera, Thunderbird and Hotmail all support it, and I know pine supports it (that's what I use). So, when David Riley sends mail from apple mail, what sort of client do you have to be using to have trouble reading paragraph-long lines? I get super-long unwrapped lines from some people in Thunderbird. Format=flowed is evil. If I want a CR, I'll type one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:44:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:44:04 -0500 Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> Isn't MFM just a special case of GCR? > On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Christian Corti wrote: >> In that case, GCR is a RLL code in the sense of limiting the run length of >> successive zeroes. > > MFM being a "special case" (one of many possible instances) of GCR, and > MFM being a "special case" (one of many possible instances) of RLL, > does NOT NECESSARILY imply logically that GCR and RLL are the same. > (Want a Venn diagram how that could work as an intersection of the two?) > > The relationship between GCR and RLL is going to depend on how you define > GCR (and, to a lesser extent, RLL). Both limit the number of consecutive > 0 bits. However, GCR generally is table driven, based on only using > bit patterns that can be written without adding any clock pulses, while > RLL manipulates added clock bits placed between the existing bits to > achieve the goal. Our definitions could be used to > differentiate the two, OR to demonstrate the equality. Or, in short, "Yes, but the TLAs carry important semantics". :-) - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 13:45:32 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 12:45:32 -0700 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: In article , Alexey Toptygin writes: > [...] what sort of client do you have to > be using to have trouble reading paragraph-long lines? MH -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 13:47:22 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:47:22 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201112852.L44692@shell.lmi.net> References: <783CEA1556E34B60A72CE8A433EA1457@EMACHINE> <20120201112852.L44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 2:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > NOW, "portable to ALL platforms" means one flavor of Linux, Windoze XP, > and Mac OSX. ?ONLY. Also known as "works here!" -ethan (who remembers well the time spent porting code from "all the world's a VAX"). From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 13:59:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 14:59:23 -0500 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04C83C5A-6865-4B39-943A-E54326B8067A@neurotica.com> On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:42 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 1, 2012, at 2:16 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> If both the sending and receiving client support format=flowed, then paragraph-length lines get rendered correctly regardless of differences in the sender's and receiver's screen width... Google tells me that apple mail does format=flowed by default, Eudora, Opera, Thunderbird and Hotmail all support it, and I know pine supports it (that's what I use). So, when David Riley sends mail from apple mail, what sort of client do you have to be using to have trouble reading paragraph-long lines? > > Pretty sure I recall Mouse mentioning at one point that he wrote his own MUA (or maybe it was MTA? Maybe I dreamed the whole thing up?). > > That was my understanding of format=flowed, though, because this is a topic I've seen beaten to death on other lists. The fact that it gets discussed at all is indicative of a problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 1 14:35:07 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:35:07 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201113845.C44692@shell.lmi.net> References: <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> <20120201113845.C44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120201203507.GB17411@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > > In K&R C (I don't know from ANSI), it was recommended that an int be > > > whatever type was easiest to deal with. > > ISO C section 6.2.5 paragraph 5 says about the int type: > > K&R .NE. ANSI > K&R .NE. ISO > > NOTE: "K&R" refers to edition ONE. > Later, K&R wrote a different book to document a different language How does K&R C (which I don't consider C) differ from ANSI-C? I mean, besides function prototypes, formal variable argument functions and a standardize library of functions I can rely upon to exist? -spc (struggling with C code at work that at one point must have been K&R, and it shows ... ugh) From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Feb 1 15:19:29 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:19:29 -0500 Subject: Imaging OSI disks References: Message-ID: <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt> A question for Chuck, Fred and anyone else with relevant experience/knowledge: can OSI disks (specifically Challenger 4P disks) be read by a PC and imaged/recreated ? If so, how? If not, why not? Don't see 'em in either 22disk or Xenocopy, but then they're not CP/M. It's a question from a third party and I don't have any disks or I'd try some imaging programs myself. TIA, m From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 15:28:33 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:28:33 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F29AE81.70009@gmail.com> Sean Conner wrote: > So now I'm wondering---besides Baudot, 6-bit BCD and EBCDIC, is there any > other encoding scheme used? And of Baudot, 6-bit BCD and EBCDIC, are there > any systems using those encoding schemes *AND* have a C compiler available? IBM z/OS. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 15:31:45 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 13:31:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201203507.GB17411@brevard.conman.org> References: <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> <20120201113845.C44692@shell.lmi.net> <20120201203507.GB17411@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120201130837.L49309@shell.lmi.net> > > > > In K&R C (I don't know from ANSI), it was recommended that an int be > > > > whatever type was easiest to deal with. > > > ISO C section 6.2.5 paragraph 5 says about the int type: > > K&R .NE. ANSI > > K&R .NE. ISO > > NOTE: "K&R" refers to edition ONE. > > Later, K&R wrote a different book to document a different language (called "ANSI-C") On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > How does K&R C (which I don't consider C) differ from ANSI-C? I mean, > besides function prototypes, formal variable argument functions and a > standardize library of functions I can rely upon to exist? > -spc (struggling with C code at work that at one point must have been K&R, > and it shows ... ugh) (I guess that any use of "C" without further qualification will result in confusion) There are certainly many similarities, a programmer who knows one will not have MUCH difficulty learning the other. In fact, some K&R1-C programs could be written in ANSI-C, and some ANSI-C programs could be written in K&R1-C. SOME programs could, in theory, be written to run in BOTH! "Ansi C" has STANDARDS! "K&R1 C" does NOT. With ANSI-C, there are many things that you can assume. With K&R1-C, there aren't. Even down to things such as char >= 8 bits, and "everything can be made of chars". If one were sufficiently demented, K&R1-C could be implemented on machines that not all would agree to call "computers". Because of that flexibility, programming in K&R1-C requires MUCH greater knowledge of the specific implementation, and ability to port to anything else is NOT a given. For specific items, such as integer multiples of size, I will now have to retrieve one of my copies of K&R1 and go through systematically to try the daunting task of "proof of non-existence" for numerous issues that have been argued. For any task that is thoroughly abstracted from the hardware, ANSI-C is preferable, since you will know exactly what to expect. For tasks that are VERY close to the hardware, K&R1-C permits use/ABUSE of implementation specifics. IOW, are we going to compute Sales Tax?, or are we going to twiddle bits? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 15:43:31 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:43:31 +0000 Subject: cobalt qube In-Reply-To: <302B1DEE-0C7C-4BA4-84B9-3C18C23C12A6@gmail.com> References: <4F25B136.1010803@neurotica.com> <302B1DEE-0C7C-4BA4-84B9-3C18C23C12A6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 30 January 2012 15:34, Mark Benson wrote: > On 30 Jan 2012, at 14:58, Liam Proven wrote: > >> This thread prompted me to do a quick search. >> >> There's on on eBay UK for 99p at the moment. No PSU, though. It's >> listed as spares/repair but actually he's just vacuous and has lost >> the power cable. >> >> I am tempted, but I have no earthly use for the damned thing... > > Ah of course that's a Qube *3* (AMD) - mine's a Qube 2 (MIPS). Nevermind. > > If you want an old, slow x86 server I suppose it's a good deal. I dunno if it uses the same power cable as a Qube2, but I have several spare plug kits to fit a Qube2 if anyone needs one. Tempting... but I have several old low-spec x86 boxes knocking around that I do not want or need any more and I need to get rid of. I don't need any more, and I certainly have no use for a MIPS server. I see there's a bid on it now, anyway. It's here if anyone's curious: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/160722024952 Got *exactly* one day to go as I write... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 15:45:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 14:45:19 -0700 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB at gmail.com>, David Riley writes: > That was my understanding of format=flowed, though, because this is a topic I 've seen beaten to death on other lists. The problem with format=flowed, is that it just doesn't work well with older mail clients. And besides, if my mail window is really wide because I maximized the window, who says it is easier to read if the text scrolls the whole width of the screen? It is still easier to read if it's in a reasonably sized line width paragraph. There's a reason that *no* print media formats text the way that a mail client would format text with format=flowed. It *sucks*. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 1 15:46:30 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:46:30 +0000 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202010920.EAA09067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <201202010920.EAA09067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7F6742@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Mouse Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2012 1:21 AM > Even your example "portable regarding endianess" is only relative; > does this putatively portable code actually work in unusual cases > such as PDP-endian, or just the two common endiannesses? ^^^^^^^^^^ What does that term mean? ;-> After all, there are 4 different architectures which were all produced under the rubric "PDP-x" by Digital Equipment Corporation, and only one of those has any oddities to its endian behaviour. The others all name the high-order bit of the word "0", with the low-order bit varying in name among "11", "17", and "35". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 15:57:23 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:57:23 -0500 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F29B543.70901@neurotica.com> On 02/01/2012 04:45 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB at gmail.com>, > David Riley writes: > >> That was my understanding of format=flowed, though, because this is a topic I > 've seen beaten to death on other lists. > > The problem with format=flowed, is that it just doesn't work well with > older mail clients. And some new ones as well. Does it honor hard carriage returns as something other than paragraph breaks? > And besides, if my mail window is really wide because I maximized the > window, who says it is easier to read if the text scrolls the whole > width of the screen? It is still easier to read if it's in a > reasonably sized line width paragraph. > > There's a reason that *no* print media formats text the way that a > mail client would format text with format=flowed. It *sucks*. Yes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:21:52 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: <4F2884FF.8020807@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 1, 12 00:19:11 am Message-ID: > > On 31/01/12 19:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > I ahve no idea whay the standard method changed, but if I ever find the > > idiot who came up with it, I'll be tempted to insert a logic analyser > > rectally... > > Ugh, that would be downright cruel. > > To the logic analyser. > > I mean... the only LA I'm aware of which would stand a chance of fitting I thoguth there were some USB instruemtns that claimed to be logic analysers... One of those might be a sutiable enema :-) And I didn't say how hard I was goign to force it in. I am sure either myu K100D or HP1630 could be used for this if pushed hard enough. And the instruemtns won't mind (I've sat on both of them without problems...) > would be the HP LogicDART, and I can think of far better uses for one of > those. Oh so can I. I use mine almost every day, Actually, I noramly use it in the single probe 'investigate' mode where it acts as a voltmeter, frequency meter and a logic probe with the ability to capture the waveform. The 3 channel 'analyse' mode sure is handy though. But I rearely use the continuity tester mode. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:00:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:00:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: from "David Riley" at Jan 31, 12 04:46:36 pm Message-ID: > > On Jan 31, 2012, at 3:24 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 1) RS (used to?) sell cables with a moulded mini-DIN on each end. Cut said > > cable in half and wire the bare ends to whatever you are building. I > > don't think tye do 9 pin ones though (they did do 8 pin ones when I was > > makign serial cables for my Epson PX4/PX8 machines). > > The same applies to power cords: the electronics store near my > parents' house in Baltimore (similar idea to what Radio Shack used to > be, back when it was really Radio Shack) will sell me a power cord with > a wall plug on one end and exposed wires on the other for $5. It will > sell me an otherwise identical extension cord for $2. A pair of cutting > pliers is the great equalizer. :-) I never much cared for moulded mains connectores. You can never be sure the wiring isn't hanging on a couple of strands, and there's no adequte cable clamp (I've seen many moulded mains plugs over here whre the outer cable sheath is pulling out of the plug. But anyway... BAck tyo cutting cables in half... Over here the telephone plug crimp tool [1] is hard to get and expensive (I don';t meen a 6p4c tool, those are easy to get over here, even though we don't use that connector for telephones (officially). I mean the tool fr othe BT Plug 431A, etc. On ther other hand, telephone extensuon cables are easy to get and cheap. You guessed it.... [1] If anyone knows a wouve of a decenmt, not too expensive tool for the UK telephone plug, I am interested. I mena something better than the plastic thing that Maplin, etc, sell, and something that doens't involve spending well over \pounds 1000 for a press tool, punch and die. Getting back to classic ocmputers, one of the few video game consoles I have is the Vectrex. This uses DE9 connectoes for the control pads, but they're recessed into the case so a normal DE9 socket and hood won't fit. About 20 years ago (when I was buildign stuff for htis machine) one of the current games consoles -- I think it was the Sega Megadrive -- used DE9s for the control pads too. I found that if you bought a cheap etension cable or cotnrol pad for that unit, you could shave a little off the moulded DE9 socket so it would fit the Vectrex case, then cut the cable and use it to wire your joystik interface, light pen, etc, to the Vectrex... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:29:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:29:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek Triple Nickel, Re: OT: HP signature analyzer In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Feb 1, 12 03:14:22 am Message-ID: > I have a 561A that makes me happy. :-) I do need to clean its switches, > though. FWIW, I'd love to find a 3A74 plug-in for it. There's enough > stuff that I do with vintage machines, requiring not screaming hot > bandwidth but multiple inputs, that the 3A74 would just be far too cool > for words. Just sayin'=8A I have a tpye M (4 trace) for my 555. A 1A4 (4 trace, but higher bandwidth) would be fun, but I can manage with the tpye M. Once I had the Type M on one beam and a 1A1 in the other beam -- yes, 6 traces on the screen at once. > > I also have a HP 1741A that I use for faster things. At the Museum we > have Tek digital 'phosphor' scopes. For fater repetitive signals (like clock oscillators, the local oscillator in a 2m rig, etc) I use my 1S1, Yes I do have the probve for it (cathode follower probe with a small triode valve inside). > > When people on this list say they don't own an oscilloscope, I wonder how It never fails to amaze me that there are plenty of programmers (even here) who don;t own a 'scope or logic analyser (or even a multimeter), but Iv'e yet to meet a hardware type who doens't own a C compiler and assmeblers and know how to use them. > they fetch water, cook their meals and eliminate their waste products. > For folks who do what we do, a scope seems that basic, to my way of > thinking. I don't use it every day, but when I need it there's no other > tool that compares. -- Ian Actuallly, I use a logic analyser rather more than a 'scope. But I certain;y have several of the latter instruments... I am sometimes suprised by the fact that many people's toolkit is rather more limited than what I consider to be my 'portable toolkit' (screwdrivers, plilers, cutters, soldering iron, nutdrivers, hex keys, torx driers, etc). But then they probably wonder how I live without things that they would consider essential (like, sya, a guitar, or a bicycle, or a car, or sports equipment, or....) I guess we all have our own interests. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:34:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:34:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek Triple Nickel, Re: OT: HP signature analyzer In-Reply-To: <196EB9FC-0A14-44C1-89A1-1869D72864C2@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 31, 12 08:28:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 2012 Jan 31, at 7:14 PM, Ian King wrote: > > > > I have a 561A that makes me happy. :-) I do need to clean its > > switches, > > though. FWIW, I'd love to find a 3A74 plug-in for it. There's enough > > stuff that I do with vintage machines, requiring not screaming hot > > bandwidth but multiple inputs, that the 3A74 would just be far too > > cool > > for words. Just sayin' > > There is a 4-channel plug-in (presumably a 3A74) in one of the 500 > series Tek scopes at the radio museum here. Not sure which 5xx base > it is in. I'd love to be working on it. The 560 seires takes totally different plug-ins from the other 500s... Basically, tjhe 530//540/550 series take 'letter series' (like 'type M') and '1 series' (like '1A1') plug-ins The 560 series take 3-series and 2-series (the latter being the timebases IIRC) plugins. These 'scope mainframes contain almost no electronics apart from the PSU, I think the plug-ins drive the CRT plates directly. The 580 series take 80 series plug-ins, or letter series/1 series with the Tpye 81 adapter. A 4 trace plug-in fro a 530/540/550 could be a Type M or a 1A4. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:40:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:40:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek Triple Nickel, Re: OT: HP signature analyzer In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 31, 12 09:26:03 pm Message-ID: > I know the feeling, but [throwing them out] wouldn't be > unprecedented. We (the museum - including me) throw out a lot of > stuff and there are widely-varying opinions about what to toss and > what to keep. We have very limited space (we just got rid of a couple > of dozen low-end tube scopes), the teks do take up a lot of space, > and I'm one of the few/only there who appreciates them. Without wishing to re-ignite that particualr flame, I feel that some people associeted with said museum need to be LARTed. Now, When a donation is accepted by a museum (and of course the museum has the right to refuse any donaton), the donor should expect that the item will be preserved and not thrown out. Surely if the msueum doens't want somethign it owns, it should offer it to other museums, and failing that to collectors (such as this list), or sell it (if the donor hasn't specified that the item must not be sold) to raise money for the museum. No, a pricate collector may not conserve stuff in the same way a msueum should. But a skip (dumpster) won't conserve it at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:13:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:13:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: <4F2872A6.5050300@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 31, 12 11:00:54 pm Message-ID: > > On 31/01/12 20:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is that a quadrature-output mouse with a 9 pin mini-DIN?=20 > > Yep. 5V LSTTL. Not suprising... > > > I've found that rewireable mini-DINs are significantly larger tham=20 > > moulded ones. Quite often the former won't fit. > > I have a couple of solderable mini-DINs, and you're right, they're far > too big. About twice times the length of the plug on the PS2MouseMini, > and a good 5mm extra diameter. IIRC, they won't fit the mouse socket on the back of an A300/A400 leybaord either, at least not without cutting them. My A310 came (second-hand) without a mouse. At the time, Maplin sold quadrature mice as spares for the ST and Amiga (one was 2 button, the otehr was 3 button, and they had different connectiosn to the DE9 IIRC). So I bought the 3 button one of those, cut the DE9 off and soldered the wires to a 9 pin mini-DIN ARGH!. What made it even more ARGH! was that of coruse Ididn't know which way round the quadrature signals had to be (wich is X1 and which is X2, for example), so I had to swap over a couple of pairs of wires. Moving wires in the mdidle of an already-soldered mini-DIN is a lot worse than DMD rework :-) > > The A3000 will take a moulded mini-DIN plug *and that's it*. > > CJE apparently have spare mouse cables, but they're not much cheaper > than an entire mouse :( > Price for a new mouse? =A343. No, there isn't a missing decimal there, I > asked. Ouch!... I did find a CPC-branded 'replacement' mouse for the Archmedes in a chraity shop many years a go, No, I am not sellign it :-) This will annoy you, but my WHitechapel MG1 came not only with the original Depraz mouse (misisng some of the buttons -- Digitast rocker button swithces on the front), but also with an Acorn mouse that had had the 9 pin mini-DIN cut off and been rewired to a DE9 plug to fit the MG1. I repired the original mouse (I had some suitable switches in the junk box, and the buttons just clop on) but of course I also kept the Acorn one. But it's no use on an Acorn machine any more. > > > 3) Remvoe the darn mini-DIN socket fro mthe PCB, fit a DE9 or similar=20 > > on the case and wire it up. %deity do I hate mini-DINs... > > Actually, I could probably route one through the back. There are some > pads on the board marked "ALTERNATE MOUSE" which appear to connect to > the mouse socket. I'd sooner hide a PIC micro and a PS/2 socket inside > though. Get rid of the external adapter entirely :) Are those pads at a suitalbe spacing to fit some kind of plug to the PCB (e.g. a Molex KK)? If so, fit it and make whatever plug-in adapter you need... > > It's still just about the worst connector they could have picked... :-/ I agree. I hade mini-DINs, They are painful to wire, and don't make good contact even when new. Are they really a DIN standard, or are they named miniDIN simply becuase they look like a smaller version of the well-known audio conenctor? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 1 15:16:56 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 21:16:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commordore 64 character color cycling (Ethan Dicks) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 31, 12 05:49:55 pm Message-ID: > Let me echo Tony Duell's recommendation of turned-pin (machined-pin) > sockets. I use them exclusively, even in kits I buy (I throw the > supplied cheap sockets in a box and use my own). Actually I built a couple of kits recently and did use the suppleid formed-pin sockets. But theyr'e simple enough (a telephone ringing voltage detector [1] and a monitoring audio amplifier based roudn the LM386() that if the socket fails it'll be very easy to trace and and that point I fit a turned-pin one. Not like a RAM IC where a bad conenctions will cause faults that would be hell to trace. [1] This seems to have been designed by 'Mad Man Muntz'. It worked a lot better after I added a resistor and capacitor (to totally different parts of the circuit. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 16:01:14 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:01:14 -0700 Subject: 68000 CPUs available + others (MAC, multiplier) Message-ID: A local guy Abraham Barker has some 68000 chips for sale: 68000 16/32-bit CISC microprocessor: 1x MC68000P8 (Motorola Plastic...) 2x MC68000L8 (Motorola Ceramic) 1x MC68000P10 (Motorola Plastic) 3x MC68000L10 (Motorola Ceramic) 4x MC68000L12 (Motorola Ceramic) 1x SCN68000 CAI64 B (Signetics Ceramic gold plated leads) 16x16 Parallel Multiplier-Accumulator: 1x TDC 1010J (TRW Ceramic/Aluminium gold plated) 3x 1010J1C (TRW Ceramic/Aluminium gold plated) 2x WLT1010 JC (Weitek Ceramic gold plated) 16x16 Parallel Multiplier: 1x MPY 016H (TRW Ceramic/Aluminium gold plated) 1x 016HJ1C (TRW Ceramic/Aluminium gold plated) He didn't post what he was asking for them, but I will pass it along when I know. He was going to list them on ebay in a few days, but I thought someone here might be interested in a first crack. Email me and I will forward any messages to him and he can reply to you directly. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Feb 1 08:56:28 2012 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:56:28 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Parallel DB25 Microswitch ASCII Keyboard Message-ID: <4F29529C.50604@comcast.net> Anyone have a Parallel Microswitch ASCII Keyboard they are willing to part with? From cym224 at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 15:17:25 2012 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:17:25 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <783CEA1556E34B60A72CE8A433EA1457@EMACHINE> <20120201112852.L44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 1 February 2012 14:47, Ethan Dicks wrote (in part): > -ethan (who remembers well the time spent porting code from "all the > world's a VAX"). Speaking of such vile heresies, what is Henry doing nowadays? From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 1 16:18:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:18:16 -0500 Subject: Tek Triple Nickel, Re: OT: HP signature analyzer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F29BA28.4020108@neurotica.com> On 01/31/2012 10:14 PM, Ian King wrote: >> In other happy news, I repaired my Tek 575 this evening. It had >> physical damage to the step generator switch that was holding it in an >> impossible mode (single-family AND repetitive sweep) and a bad 6AL5 tube >> in the step generator, so the step capacitor never got discharged. It >> works great now. > > Congratulations! Thanks! > I have a 561A that makes me happy. :-) I do need to clean its switches, > though. FWIW, I'd love to find a 3A74 plug-in for it. There's enough > stuff that I do with vintage machines, requiring not screaming hot > bandwidth but multiple inputs, that the 3A74 would just be far too cool > for words. Just sayin'? The vast majority of even modern electronics design doesn't need a really fast scope. Some parts do, but not many. > I also have a HP 1741A that I use for faster things. At the Museum we > have Tek digital 'phosphor' scopes. Those are pretty nice. I have a TDS3012 that I use a lot, but not as often as my 2465A. > When people on this list say they don't own an oscilloscope, I wonder how > they fetch water, cook their meals and eliminate their waste products. > For folks who do what we do, a scope seems that basic, to my way of > thinking. I don't use it every day, but when I need it there's no other > tool that compares. -- Ian Yup. On those rare occasions when I have nontechnical visitors, I cringe when I hear things like "why do you have these old RADAR scopes in here?" I try really hard not to associate with such people. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 16:27:42 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 17:27:42 -0500 Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2012, at 4:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Getting back to classic ocmputers, one of the few video game consoles I > have is the Vectrex. This uses DE9 connectoes for the control pads, but > they're recessed into the case so a normal DE9 socket and hood won't > fit. About 20 years ago (when I was buildign stuff for htis machine) one > of the current games consoles -- I think it was the Sega Megadrive -- > used DE9s for the control pads too. I found that if you bought a cheap > etension cable or cotnrol pad for that unit, you could shave a little > off the moulded DE9 socket so it would fit the Vectrex case, then cut the > cable and use it to wire your joystik interface, light pen, etc, to the > Vectrex... Yeah, the MegaDrive (called the Genesis over here) had DE9 connectors. It seemed like an odd choice in an era when Nintendo used much more durable and convenient (but much less standard) proprietary connector for theirs. Either one was better than Nintendo's Famicom (the original Japanese version of the NES), which had hard-wired controllers. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 16:46:04 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 14:46:04 -0800 Subject: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt> References: , <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4F29502C.2271.1525C2D@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 16:19, MikeS wrote: > A question for Chuck, Fred and anyone else with relevant > experience/knowledge: can OSI disks (specifically Challenger 4P disks) > be read by a PC and imaged/recreated ? If so, how? If not, why not? > > Don't see 'em in either 22disk or Xenocopy, but then they're not CP/M. > > It's a question from a third party and I don't have any disks or I'd > try some imaging programs myself. The C4P (as well as other members of the Challenger line) uses a 6850 ACIA and some monostables (for data separation) as a disk controller. The format, data rate, etc. is utterly sui generis. On the other hand, you could probably build something to read from these disks fairly simply. There's not much to it. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 17:29:39 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:29:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201202012329.SAA24459@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > If both the sending and receiving client support format=flowed, [...] > Google tells me that apple mail does format=flowed by default, [...] I suspect Google partially misled you. I don't use Mail.app myself, any more than any other closed-source program, but those who do tell me that Mail.app used to do format=flowed correctly and then was changed to not do so, so it apparently matters what version is at issue. In any case, the message that provoked my remark was not marked format=flowed - I checked - though of course I'm not in a position to know whether this is the fault of its originating UA or some intermediate software. (I'm fairly sure it is not software under my control, though.) > So, when David Riley sends mail from apple mail, what sort of client > do you have to be using to have trouble reading paragraph-long lines? One that recognizes that format=flowed does not apply when it's not actually present. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Feb 1 17:34:09 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 23:34:09 +0000 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <4F27065D.5070505@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4F29CBF1.9050705@dunnington.plus.com> John Many Jars wrote: > Pity... I have an Indy. I put linux on it, as the Irix install was messed > up. It's the slowest linux box ever... (; No it isn't. My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest ever that's still in use :-) If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I could find you copy CDs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 17:48:52 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:48:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201202012348.SAA24774@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> If both the sending and receiving client support format=flowed, then paragr$ > Pretty sure I recall Mouse mentioning at one point that he wrote his own MUA$ My MUA is mostly - entirely, from some perspectives - my own code. My MTA is partially my own code; my SMTP listener is mine, but I use sendmail as a routing engine and first-level delivery backend. However, none of that is relevant. I went back and checked again (I keep a separate copy of all mail that hits my inbox for some weeks). Here is the Content-Type: from Dave's mail, the one that I was replying to when I brought this up, as it hit my inbox: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Note the complete lack of format=flowed. And I do get quite enough mail that _is_ marked format=flowed; quite aside from it not being designed to, there's pragmatic evidence it's not my code stripping it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 17:51:54 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 23:51:54 +0000 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 1 February 2012 18:47, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/01/2012 01:34 PM, David Riley wrote: >> >> Apple has apparently decided that they don't need a >> line wrap option in their mail client, which I otherwise >> very much prefer. ?Manual line wrap is problematic when >> there's no column position indicator. > > > ?I switched to Thunderbird for precisely that reason. ?I really liked OS X's > Mail.app for several years, but it just seemed to become less nice with each > release. ?I wish they'd learn to just leave stuff the hell alone when it > works well and does everything it needs to do. And once again, I have to agree. If anything, T'bird was actually a bit more visual and GUIfied - for instance, you could just click on the blob that indicates read/unread status to toggle it. In Apple Mail, it's a menu operation. And of course, T'bird is quite happily cross-platform aware: I've moved a TB2 message store freely between Mac OS X, Windows XP and Linux with no problems. TB1 struggled with non-native path names - TB2+ seem to just use relative paths and sort themselves out. I was really quite impressed. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 1 17:58:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:58:18 -0800 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F29D19A.4020007@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > The problem with format=flowed, is that it just doesn't work well with > older mail clients. Do you object to format=flowed, when the sending MUA has also wrapped the lines at a reasonable length? As far as I can tell, that's what Thunderbird now does by default. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 1 17:59:30 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 15:59:30 -0800 Subject: Wanted: Parallel DB25 Microswitch ASCII Keyboard In-Reply-To: <4F29529C.50604@comcast.net> References: <4F29529C.50604@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7AB8DCE9-9DE4-40E7-9BFA-0542474811B9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 1, at 6:56 AM, Nick Allen wrote: > Anyone have a Parallel Microswitch ASCII Keyboard they are willing > to part with? As a matter of fact I do, but are we talking the same thing? Briefly, what I have is: - bare keyboard (PCB with switch sensors mounted in stainless steel frames, with encoding matrix and chip) - Microswitch part no.: 61SW12-2 - 1975 (7549) date code - AMI SW 20416 MOS encoder chip - parallel output with strobe - reverse-engineered and tested in 2006 (schematic available) - missing right-hand SHIFT keycap - one non-functioning sensor, which I moved to the right-hand duplicate CTRL position, so no loss of functionality Very nice 70s-era keyboards. Just pressing the keys triggers memories of working at terminals in that era. I had a vague thought of using it one day to make a 70's-style homebrew machine, but that's way way over the horizon in the project queue. Of course, you have to tell us why you are looking for one ..? (You mention DB25, were you looking for something in a detached case?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 18:00:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:00:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org>, <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F286830.25648.1F59044@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120201155909.V55574@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 31 Jan 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What about the numeric results of a shift on an int? I am aware of > more than one system that handles ints as a special case of float; > i.e., the int may be 64 bits long, but it's composed of a 16 bit > exponent followed by a 48 bit mantissa. It would seem that shifting > one of those would produce some "interesting" results. > Similarly, sign-magnitude integer representations will give very > different results after a shift than will shifting the normal two/s > complement int. K&R1-C can and will give different results depending on architecture. ANSI-C will give consistent results, but not be available on all of the platforms. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 18:09:44 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 19:09:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201130837.L49309@shell.lmi.net> References: <201202010437.XAA01952@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F285DD2.14166.1CD1078@cclist.sydex.com> <20120131214157.M20629@shell.lmi.net> <4F28E948.4000302@brouhaha.com> <20120201113845.C44692@shell.lmi.net> <20120201203507.GB17411@brevard.conman.org> <20120201130837.L49309@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201202020009.TAA25309@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > "Ansi C" has STANDARDS! > "K&R1 C" does NOT. Actually, K&R1 C it does have something of a standard; it just is vague on a number of points and does not come from a country-level (or larger) standards body. (Of course, ANSI/ISO C is vague on a number of points too, just a lot fewer.) > With ANSI-C, there are many things that you can assume. > With K&R1-C, there aren't. Sure there are. The set is just smaller than it is for ANSI/ISO C, and less well defined. > Because [...], programming in K&R1-C requires MUCH greater knowledge > of the specific implementation, and ability to port to anything else > is NOT a given. It's not much of a given in ANSI/ISO C, either; it's hard to build a strictly conforming program that actually does very much that's useful. > For tasks that are VERY close to the hardware, K&R1-C permits > use/ABUSE of implementation specifics. So does ANSI/ISO C. It just draws the "beyond this line you are taking advantage of implementation-specific details" line much more clearly. A modern C compiler is, after all, allowed to accept code that the standard says produces undefined behaviour, or that the standard considers syntax errors; it may even produce useful results when it does so. You just can't count on another implementation doing either. (Just like K&R1, actually, in that regard.) There are some circumstances under which the compiler is required to produce "at least one diagnostic message". But the compiler is allowed to carry on, possibly even producing a runnable program if it wants. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 1 18:19:35 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 19:19:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7F6742@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <201202010920.EAA09067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7F6742@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201202020019.TAA25453@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> such as PDP-endian, or just the two common endiannesses? > ^^^^^^^^^^ > What does that term mean? ;-> Some (all? most?) PDP-11 setups were little-endian with respect to (8-bit) bytes within a (16-bit) short, but big-endian with respect to (16-bit) shorts within a (32-bit) long. For example, 0x87654321 would come out as the four consecutive bytes 0x65 0x87 0x21 0x43. My understanding of this phenomenon is minimal, but, for what it's worth, I think this happened because bytes-within-short was done LE by the hardware, but the PDP-11 does not have any 32-bit hardware data type, so it has to be simulated by software (much the way 32-bit machines these days do 64-bit integers), and whoever created that software support did it BE, for whatever reason. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 1 18:21:49 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:21:49 -0600 Subject: Apple II SPI Message-ID: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty way to wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? I'm looking for a temp solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct interface. Something that doesn't require any soldering would be grand (bit banging the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS pins on the RS232 (if that can be done...), etc. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 1 18:37:53 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:37:53 -0700 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F29D19A.4020007@brouhaha.com> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> <4F29D19A.4020007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4F29D19A.4020007 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Richard wrote: > > The problem with format=flowed, is that it just doesn't work well with > > older mail clients. > Do you object to format=flowed, when the sending MUA has also wrapped > the lines at a reasonable length? As far as I can tell, that's what > Thunderbird now does by default. I suppose if you do that, then the receive MUA isn't required to cope with format=flowed (which IIRC says you are free to *reformat* it any way you like, including ignoring EOLs in the existing message as well as adding them). That would be preferable because it still allows MUAs that support format=flowed to do whatever they want, but flows the text to a reasonable length for MUAs that don't support format=flowed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 1 18:46:21 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 16:46:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt> References: <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt> Message-ID: <20120201164312.O55574@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 1 Feb 2012, MikeS wrote: > A question for Chuck, Fred and anyone else with relevant > experience/knowledge: can OSI disks (specifically Challenger 4P disks) be > read by a PC and imaged/recreated ? If so, how? If not, why not? > Don't see 'em in either 22disk or Xenocopy, but then they're not CP/M. > It's a question from a third party and I don't have any disks or I'd try > some imaging programs myself. In XenoCopy, I did a few other formats besides CP/M, such as P-System, "Stand-Alone-BASIC", Coco, etc. But, ONLY ones that could be done with PC hardware. Alas, for the OSI, you will need to build some hardware to read them. I do NOT know the details, but I've heard that that hardware can be built around a UART! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 18:53:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 16:53:01 -0800 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 18:21, Jim Brain wrote: > Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty > way to wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? I'm looking > for a temp solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct > interface. Something that doesn't require any soldering would be > grand (bit banging the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS > pins on the RS232 (if that can be done...), etc. Maybe I'm not understanding this, but just about any small MCU with a sufficient number of pins implements SPI ; most have UARTs on board and so could serve as a cheap-and-dirty bridge. What am I missing? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 19:01:08 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:01:08 -0800 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F296FD4.21811.1CE04BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 18:21, Jim Brain wrote: > Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty > way to wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? I'm looking > for a temp solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct > interface. Something that doesn't require any soldering would be > grand (bit banging the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS > pins on the RS232 (if that can be done...), etc. If you're not in the mood to program an MCU, Altera has an old appnote for using a CPLD as an SPI "bridge": http://www.altera.com/literature/an/an485.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 19:04:13 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:04:13 -0800 Subject: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <20120201164312.O55574@shell.lmi.net> References: , <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt>, <20120201164312.O55574@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F29708D.4540.1D0D7C1@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 16:46, Fred Cisin wrote: > In XenoCopy, I did a few other formats besides CP/M, such as P-System, > "Stand-Alone-BASIC", Coco, etc. But, ONLY ones that could be done with > PC hardware. > > Alas, for the OSI, you will need to build some hardware to read them. > I do NOT know the details, but I've heard that that hardware can be > built around a UART! Could be done with a pulse-timer board, such as a Catweasel pretty easily. Or a small MCU with its built-in UART could also do the trick. Moving heads, etc. is simple. To see what OSI used for data separators and other interface, I believe that somone has a Sam's Photofact online for the C4P showing schematics and timings. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Feb 1 19:37:51 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 20:37:51 -0500 Subject: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120201112852.L44692@shell.lmi.net> References: <783CEA1556E34B60A72CE8A433EA1457@EMACHINE> <20120201112852.L44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F29E8EF.4000100@telegraphics.com.au> On 01/02/12 2:38 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Reading this very interesting thread I got the malevolent idea to >> implement a compliant C compiler which is as different from every other >> as possible. Perhaps also for a fictional machine that also differs in >> many ways from existing machines. > > It would ALMOST be possible to implement a K&R C (which I call "C") on an > ANALOG computer. But, ANSI-C (which I do NOT call "C") introduces MANY > irrelevant, but prob'ly quite useful, restrictions that are neither > present in K&R 1, nor in the spirit of C. > > K&R never claimed, nor implied that there was ANY portability in C. The fact that UNIX-in-C was quickly ported to 5 or 10 platforms other than PDP-11 - many with the help of pcc of course - makes a pretty strong case. > ANSI took that and created a NEW, DIFFERENT language that while > recognizable in its heritage, was obviously NOT the same language. > >> I think statement such as "this program is written to be portable" it >> means portable in just one or a handfull of aspects. >> E.g. "Portable regarding endianess" >> "Has been compiled with GCC on two platforms" > > NOW, "portable to ALL platforms" means one flavor of Linux, Windoze XP, > and Mac OSX. ONLY. At least it does't mean "portable to Ein Platform" as Billy dreamed (and dreams on). --Toby From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 1 20:04:44 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 20:04:44 -0600 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> On 2/1/2012 6:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Feb 2012 at 18:21, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty >> way to wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? I'm looking >> for a temp solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct >> interface. Something that doesn't require any soldering would be >> grand (bit banging the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS >> pins on the RS232 (if that can be done...), etc. > Maybe I'm not understanding this, but just about any small MCU with a > sufficient number of pins implements SPI ; most have UARTs on board > and so could serve as a cheap-and-dirty bridge. > > What am I missing? > > --Chuck > Yes, but I was wondering if there was an even less involved solution. On the 64, the decoded IO at the user port makes this a trivial task, and I'm not sure if the AppleII has a serial card or not. JIm -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 20:18:37 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:18:37 -0800 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com>, <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F2981FD.4726.214F580@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 20:04, Jim Brain wrote: > Yes, but I was wondering if there was an even less involved solution. > On the 64, the decoded IO at the user port makes this a trivial task, > and I'm not sure if the AppleII has a serial card or not. Take a look at my second reply. SPI to 8-bit parallel using a CPLD. But for the Apple code, no software in the bridge itself. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 1 20:32:52 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 20:32:52 -0600 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F2981FD.4726.214F580@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com>, <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> <4F2981FD.4726.214F580@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F29F5D4.5010604@jbrain.com> On 2/1/2012 8:18 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Feb 2012 at 20:04, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Yes, but I was wondering if there was an even less involved solution. >> On the 64, the decoded IO at the user port makes this a trivial task, >> and I'm not sure if the AppleII has a serial card or not. > Take a look at my second reply. SPI to 8-bit parallel using a CPLD. > But for the Apple code, no software in the bridge itself. > > --Chuck > I apologize, I must not be communicating effectively. 1) User in another country 2) Owns an SPI peripheral he wants to talk to 3) Has wire 4) has Apple II of some vintage 5) can attach wire to various A2 ports, if needed. Given those items, and only those items, is there anything that can be done? Adding a uC or a CPLD at this stage adds testing time, development time, and it's not what we'll need for the eventual solution, so I'd rather avoid it if possible. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 1 20:56:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 18:56:15 -0800 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29F5D4.5010604@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com>, <4F2981FD.4726.214F580@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F29F5D4.5010604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F298ACF.28766.23768C6@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2012 at 20:32, Jim Brain wrote: > 1) User in another country > 2) Owns an SPI peripheral he wants to talk to > 3) Has wire > 4) has Apple II of some vintage > 5) can attach wire to various A2 ports, if needed. > > Given those items, and only those items, is there anything that can be > done? > > Adding a uC or a CPLD at this stage adds testing time, development > time, and it's not what we'll need for the eventual solution, so I'd > rather avoid it if possible. Well, SPI is really little more than a shift register, so with an I/O for data-in and one for data-out and one for clock-out, and perhaps one for select, the rest should be little more than software. Perhaps some level translation if the device uses 3V logic. It wouldn't be fast, but it should work. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 1 22:03:25 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Feb 2012 23:03:25 -0500 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 7:21 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty way to > wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? ?I'm looking for a temp > solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct interface. > ?Something that doesn't require any soldering would be grand (bit banging > the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS pins on the RS232 (if that > can be done...), etc. We used to do bit-banged serial at 1200bps from the pins on the Apple II joystick port (the DIP socket near the back corner). We did it to move blocks of data from an Apple disk to a Commodore64 disk (which already _had_ a TTL-level bit-banged serial port on the User Port (as I'm sure you know), so that end was "free") Once we worked out the sector skew, one-by-one, we copied the blocks containing the game data (that we would now recognize as a .z3 file) for Sorcerer on the Apple to overwrite the correct blocks on the C-64 version of Enchanter (same game engine) to play the game there. Unfortunately, I did not write the Apple II end of things so I don't know the intimate details, but the important part was just stuffing two wires (GND and TTL TxD) into the socket and running that to GND and TTL RxD on the C-64 User Port. A quick inspection of the Apple II schematic or technical manuals should show what bits are writable and what address in the $Cxxx block will trigger them. -ethan From jecel at merlintec.com Wed Feb 1 23:13:36 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 02:13:36 -0300 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com> <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <201202020416.q124GHET098085@billy.ezwind.net> Jim Brain wrote: > Yes, but I was wondering if there was an even less involved solution. > On the 64, the decoded IO at the user port makes this a trivial task, > and I'm not sure if the AppleII has a serial card or not. The 16 pin DIP game port in the Apple II had four digital outputs (AN0 to AN3, for "annunciator") and three digital inputs (PB0 to PB2 for "push button") that are trivial to individually control and test. As long as your SPI device can operate at 5V and a few hundred Kbps are good enough, no additional hardware should be needed. -- Jecel From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Feb 1 18:27:55 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 00:27:55 +0000 (WET) Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems Message-ID: <01OBHUCLK5KI000JLZ@beyondthepale.ie> > The problem with format=flowed, is that it just doesn't work well with > older mail clients. It doesn't work particularly well for anyone reading the mailing list archive via the web interface either. However, I can't tell whether the correct header is present or not in the affected messages as the web interface does not reveal the headers. (It works fine if reading messages in VMS mail, until an attempt to reply is made and everything turns out to be on one line...) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 00:58:58 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 01:58:58 -0500 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <201202012348.SAA24774@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> <71B69CD1-64AF-4C19-A4A4-D0D4B6E70DFB@gmail.com> <201202012348.SAA24774@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2012, at 6:48 PM, Mouse wrote: > My MUA is mostly - entirely, from some perspectives - my own code. My > MTA is partially my own code; my SMTP listener is mine, but I use > sendmail as a routing engine and first-level delivery backend. > > However, none of that is relevant. I went back and checked again (I > keep a separate copy of all mail that hits my inbox for some weeks). > Here is the Content-Type: from Dave's mail, the one that I was replying > to when I brought this up, as it hit my inbox: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Note the complete lack of format=flowed. And I do get quite enough > mail that _is_ marked format=flowed; quite aside from it not being > designed to, there's pragmatic evidence it's not my code stripping it. Let me be clear: I wasn't suggesting your MUA/MTA was defective. Someone asked the question, I was just answering my recollection. :-) As far as Mail.app not doing format=flowed anymore, I was completely unaware of that, and I find it kind of egregious. It's a shame; I rather like it in general, but it's been doing things that get on my nerves in the most recent version, so I suppose I'll have to go MUA shopping. I'm not a huge fan of Thunderbird, but it does have a much better extension architecture and doesn't lack what I would consider important features (such as line wrapping). - Dave From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 2 06:11:01 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:11:01 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? Message-ID: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own Experimental Board now: http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. Planned is gold plating and solder stop laquer and signal description on the Bus pins. Boards where mady in germany, not the lowest prices but quality is guaranteed. We don't have the DEC DC00* Chips, so here are on your own, sorry. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Feb 2 07:14:35 2012 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 08:14:35 -0500 Subject: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <4F29708D.4540.1D0D7C1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <8D7E821A13D042C98137021EB91BCE19@vl420mt>, <20120201164312.O55574@shell.lmi.net> <4F29708D.4540.1D0D7C1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <014b01cce1ac$9c9e5b30$d5db1190$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Could be done with a pulse-timer board, such as a Catweasel pretty > easily. Or a small MCU with its built-in UART could also do the > trick. Moving heads, etc. is simple. To see what OSI used for data > separators and other interface, I believe that somone has a Sam's > Photofact online for the C4P showing schematics and timings. It's here: http://www.osiweb.org/ Along with the C1P and a lot of other good OSI docs. Bill From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 2 08:33:26 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 15:33:26 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120202143326.GA29356@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Feb 02, 2012 at 01:11:01PM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. > Planned is gold plating and solder stop laquer and signal description > on the Bus pins. Boards where mady in germany, not the lowest prices > but quality is guaranteed. I'm kind of interested. Could you ballpark the cost? Also, would two of these fit in the PDP-8 Omnibus ? Regards, Pontus. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 2 09:35:29 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 07:35:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <4F298CEF.7030304@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 1, 12 02:05:19 pm" Message-ID: <201202021535.q12FZTQs018290@floodgap.com> > > Connectix used it for SoftPC until it disappeared in the G5. That was > > probably the biggest use of it in the MacOS world. > > Ah-HA! So THAT'S why SoftPC never worked right on G5s. And was the reason why Virtual PC took so long to be ported to G5s. The only version that works right was the last one before Microsoft canned it on Mac OS X altogether. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 2 09:55:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 10:55:36 -0500 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F2AB1F8.6090100@neurotica.com> On 02/02/2012 07:11 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now > and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own > Experimental Board now: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 > > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. > Planned is gold plating and solder stop laquer and signal description > on the Bus pins. Boards where mady in germany, not the lowest prices > but quality is guaranteed. > We don't have the DEC DC00* Chips, so here are on your own, sorry. Yes, definitely! I'm interested in a small quantity of them, depending on where the pricing lands. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 2 10:37:18 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 09:37:18 -0700 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: In article <20120202121101.GB30041 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>, Holm Tiffe writes: > Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now > and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own > Experimental Board now: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 Does Q-bus really require that the edge card fingers are angled like shown in your picture? Oh, and the site you chose to share the picture pops up webcam porn ads when I go to look at the picture. I suggest you use something else that isn't trying to throw porn in my face just to look at your board layout. > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. Have you looked at batchpcb.com? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 2 11:50:34 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 12:50:34 -0500 Subject: Anyone Local have a PLCC32 to DIP 28 adapter I could borrow ?!?!? In-Reply-To: <201202021535.q12FZTQs018290@floodgap.com> References: <201202021535.q12FZTQs018290@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F2ACCEA.3020304@atarimuseum.com> Anyone Local to ZIP 10512 have an adapter I could borrow for a day or two, rather urgent.... Curt From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 2 12:46:05 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 19:46:05 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120202184605.GB31981@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Richard wrote: > > In article <20120202121101.GB30041 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>, > Holm Tiffe writes: > > > Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now > > and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own > > Experimental Board now: > > > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 > > Does Q-bus really require that the edge card fingers are angled like > shown in your picture? No it doesn't. But the russians done that with theyr QBUS Board copies and it works out really good. (Their boards are metric sized, they wouldn't fit) > > Oh, and the site you chose to share the picture pops up webcam porn > ads when I go to look at the picture. I suggest you use something > else that isn't trying to throw porn in my face just to look at your > board layout. Ah ok, I'll make a copy and load it on my own server. I'll mail this to my friend. > > > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. > > Have you looked at batchpcb.com? No. > -- [..] Ive mailed this to an other guy some minutes before, I'll simply copying some sentences here: >> I would like to know the price range, including shipping to the US for >> one and for two boards. > >Shipping isn't really a problem from here to the US (the other way around >really is a problem when I look at ebay, approx $45 for an 11/03 CPU from >the US to germany..), we have an "registered international Letter" wich >should be work out approx 5,50 Euros (Euro x 1.32 = US$) for 2 PCBs, >(even more bords, the Letter with a weight below 500 gramms costs 3,45 Euro >+ 2,05 Euro additional for the registering and insurance for approx 43 >Euros >(the last from the memory, since such a parcel from me got lost at USPS in >the US in the past). > >My Friend made the following statement: > >"Ich wollte mir 5 St?ck Q-Bus Lochrasterplatinen als Prototyp anfertigen >lassen. Das ist nicht so wirklich billig. >Als Kleinserie lohnt sich das bereits ab 10 St?ck. Dann kostet die Platine >je 39 Euro. Dann sogar inklusive L?tstopp, Aufdruck, Gold und anfasen. >Interessenten haben sich auch schon gemeldet. Mit meinen 5 Platinen sind es >schon 12 St?ck. Ab 18 St?ck sind es nur noch 27 Euro. Je mehr desto >billiger wirds." > >That meansi, that he wanted to make 5 boards for himself and that isn't >really cheap. A small batch ~10 pcs will be 39 Euros each with the solder >stopping laquer, the component print (signal numbers) gold plated and >an chamfered conncetor. >With an order over 18 peaces the price is 27 Euros. Wer are currently at 15 >peaces. (I take two, maybe one more..) > >We know that is not cheap in any regard, thats why we are looking for >people that wanting such boards also to order more.... BTW: This is a non profit price, we wan't such boards to have fun with PDP-11's, not to make money. I never seen a PDP-8 in nature, so please one of the people that know this should answer the guy in the other mail above if the boards would fit to an PDP-8, I simply don't know... Kind Reards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 12:52:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 18:52:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F29CBF1.9050705@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 1, 12 11:34:09 pm Message-ID: > > John Many Jars wrote: > > > Pity... I have an Indy. I put linux on it, as the Irix install was messed > > up. It's the slowest linux box ever... (; > > No it isn't. My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest > ever that's still in use :-) If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I Actually I doubt that. I think p850ug1 (this machine) is the slowest linux box currently in use. Can anyone beat 1.15 bogomips? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 2 13:08:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 19:08:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Feb 1, 12 06:21:49 pm Message-ID: > > Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty way > to wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? I'm looking for a > temp solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct > interface. Something that doesn't require any soldering would be grand > (bit banging the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS pins on the > RS232 (if that can be done...), etc. Since you specify bit-banging., I am going to guess that speed is not too important and that there's not that much data to transfer. I also assume you want to talk to an SPI peripheral. Now, IIRC, an PSI peripheral has 3 inputs (CS/, clock, data in) and one output (data out). So you ened 3 outptus and 1 input an the Apple. Older SPI devices used TTL levels. If it's one of thsoe you can interface it ot the Apple ][ with no extra hardware at all (no add-on cards needed). If it's a 3.3V device you'll need to make soem level shifters since the Apple is all 5V TTL. There;s a 'games port' on the Apple ][ motherboard. Amongst oether facilites, oyu have 4 TTL 'annunicaitor outputs's and 3 TTL inputs. The annuncaitor outputs are controed by accessing various locations in memory. It foesn't matter if you read or write to them, the fact that toy've accessed them will cotnrol the output. Here are the addresses (from the Apple 1 Reference Manual Table 9): Annuncaitor State Hex address AB0 Off $C058 On $C059 AN1 Off $C05A On $C05B AN2 Off $C05C On $C05D AN3 Off $C05E On $C05F In binary that's 1100 0000 0101 1xxy where xx slects the output and y gives the state it becomes. The inputs are read as the high bit of locations $C061 to $C063 in the obvious order. The games port is a 16 pin DIL socket in the rear right corner of the motherboad. The pinouts (from figure 16 in the manual) is : 1 : +5V (maximum current drain : 100mA) 2 : PB0 (Input 0) 3 : PB1 (Input 1) 4 : PB2 (Input 2) 5 : C040 Strobe/ 6 : Games Controller 0 (Connext 150k variable resisotor to +5V for an analogue input) 7 : Games controller 2 8 : Ground 9: N/C 10 : Games controller 1 11 : Games controller 3 12 : Annunciator 3 13 : Annunciator 2 14 : Annunciator 1 15 : Annunciator 0 16 N/C So you'd want to conenct to pin 8 (ground), pins 15--12 (outputs) and pins 2-4 (Inputs). Maybe also to pin 1 (+5V) if your circuit can be powered from that.. I do wodner about the people who cuggesets using microcontrollers for this. Are you incapable of designing without them? You already have a programamble microprocessor -- the 6502 in the Apple. Use that!. As it happens the I/O circuitry you need is built-in, if it wasn'tm it'sd only be a few sinmple ICs to add it. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 2 14:11:09 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 15:11:09 -0500 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2AEDDD.5070708@verizon.net> On 02/02/2012 01:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> John Many Jars wrote: >> >>> Pity... I have an Indy. I put linux on it, as the Irix install was messed >>> up. It's the slowest linux box ever... (; >> No it isn't. My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest >> ever that's still in use :-) If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I > Actually I doubt that. I think p850ug1 (this machine) is the slowest > linux box currently in use. Can anyone beat 1.15 bogomips? > Yep, my 386sx/25 that was the 16bit databus variant for laptops and low end systems. The system is actually AT class miniboard with 4 ISA slots (Video board, comboboard 2 serial 1 parallel,and an IDE/FDC board) and maxed out at 16MB of ram. In a very compact box for its time (about 1996). Its .75bogomips running an old version Slackware. Decent command line machine but running X is SLOoowwww. That is officially the oldest and slowest PC I have. The other OSs for it are OS2/Warp3, Concurrent386, and of course DOS3.11. For slowest and longest continued use the K2/450 running WIN/NT4, doing it slowly since 2000. Longest uptime about 6 months, between replacing fans and power supplies that is. The system drive is a 500mb Fujitsu(still running and has the system). A 4.3GB installed in 2003 for more space to replace a cramped 1.07gb Baracuda (that went into a MicroVAX). The two other I have that compete for speed are a 11/23B running unix V6 and a MicroVAX2000 running ultrix V4.2. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 2 14:23:14 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 15:23:14 -0500 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2AF0B2.7060303@verizon.net> >> Barring implementation of 65SPI on a CPLD, is there a quick-n-dirty way >> to wire up a SPI-based module to an Apple II/II+/IIe? I'm looking for a >> temp solution, while I design a Apple II board with a correct >> interface. Something that doesn't require any soldering would be grand >> (bit banging the SPI via some IO pins, Using the DSR/DTR/RTS pins on the >> RS232 (if that can be done...), etc. > SPI bus is a great way to add IO peripherals and mass storage to a system. It's a simple synchronous serial bus and timing is fairly easy. I use it to add a solid state disk to my systems using a SD or MMC which is a SPI interface (SD has a wide mode too, but I don't use it). Bit banging is the way to go. You only need two output bits and one input. The outputs are clock, data-out and the input is data-in. CS/ on the part can be held low if there is only 1. Data rates around 20-50KBits/Second are not too hard to do. The serial port if if has full modem controls, has enough bits but you will have to develop correct voltage levels as they will be +-12V RS232 signaling. A parallel printer port ids ideal as most have at least output bits and 2 input (ready and paper out) and they are TTL. If course a few simple TTL chips on a board can create a port for any AppleII or similar. IT would be a simplified version of a parallel printer port. Allison From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 14:31:24 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 15:31:24 -0500 Subject: Apple II SPI In-Reply-To: <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> References: <4F29D71D.6050806@jbrain.com> <4F296DED.14865.1C69673@cclist.sydex.com> <4F29EF3C.6000507@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Feb 1, 2012, at 9:04 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Yes, but I was wondering if there was an even less involved solution. On the 64, the decoded IO at the user port makes this a trivial task, and I'm not sure if the AppleII has a serial card or not. I'm gonna go with everyone else and say your quick and dirty solution is to use the joystick port as GPIO. There are 4 annunciator pins you can use as #CS, SCK and MOSI, and use a button input as MISO. As far as designing your own board, it's just a damned shift register, so I assume you're using a '164/'166 combo for shift in/shift out (or a universal with parallel load/out) and simple counters for word length/baud generation (assuming you're not just using 1MHz for SCK). You shouldn't need more than about 5 chips to make a really simple SPI board, not counting any level translation. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 2 15:35:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:35:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <01OBHUCLK5KI000JLZ@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01OBHUCLK5KI000JLZ@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20120202133153.A90259@shell.lmi.net> > > The problem with format=flowed, is that it just doesn't work well with > > older mail clients. On Thu, 2 Feb 2012, Peter Coghlan wrote: > It doesn't work particularly well for anyone reading the mailing list archive > via the web interface either. However, I can't tell whether the correct header > is present or not in the affected messages as the web interface does not > reveal the headers. > (It works fine if reading messages in VMS mail, until an attempt to reply is > made and everything turns out to be on one line...) In general, it doesn't play well with others. It works fine with the SAME mail client for receiving as sending. That results in it getting widely adopted by people who are unaware and in denial of diversity, and can't comprehend that not everybody uses the exact same thing that they do. ("But, EVERYBODY uses . . . ") From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Feb 2 17:35:57 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 23:35:57 +0000 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F2AEDDD.5070708@verizon.net> References: <4F2AEDDD.5070708@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F2B1DDD.5070303@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/02/2012 20:11, allison wrote: > On 02/02/2012 01:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I wrote >>> No it isn't. My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest >>> ever that's still in use :-) If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I >> Actually I doubt that. I think p850ug1 (this machine) is the slowest >> linux box currently in use. Can anyone beat 1.15 bogomips? >> > Yep, my 386sx/25 that was the 16bit databus variant for laptops and low > end systems. Yes, I should have known better than to make that claim! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Feb 2 18:09:23 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 19:09:23 -0500 Subject: Yes - Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <4F2AB1F8.6090100@neurotica.com> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2AB1F8.6090100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F2B25B3.2020309@telegraphics.com.au> On 02/02/12 10:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/02/2012 07:11 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now >> and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own >> Experimental Board now: >> >> http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 >> >> Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone >> want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. >> Planned is gold plating and solder stop laquer and signal description >> on the Bus pins. Boards where mady in germany, not the lowest prices >> but quality is guaranteed. >> We don't have the DEC DC00* Chips, so here are on your own, sorry. > > Yes, definitely! I'm interested in a small quantity of them, depending > on where the pricing lands. Same here, I'd speak for 2-5 depending on the final price. --Toby > > -Dave > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 2 18:27:33 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:27:33 -0700 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: <20120202133153.A90259@shell.lmi.net> References: <01OBHUCLK5KI000JLZ@beyondthepale.ie> <20120202133153.A90259@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F2B29F5.1080404@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/2/2012 2:35 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > That results in it getting widely adopted by people who are unaware > and in denial of diversity, and can't comprehend that not > everybody uses the exact same thing that they do. > ("But, EVERYBODY uses . . . ") > But how?? I have their latest version of Windows Firefox and as yet I can't figure how to get the text to print correctly compared what it shows on the screen. > > Windows gripe of the day. Some day I'll see if I can get BSD to work on this box. Ben. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu Feb 2 19:18:45 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 23:18:45 -0200 Subject: Anyone Local have a PLCC32 to DIP 28 adapter I could borrow ?!?!? References: <201202021535.q12FZTQs018290@floodgap.com> <4F2ACCEA.3020304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <198001cce211$e86471c0$6709a8c0@tababook> Why don't you roll your own? http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/conversores_plcc/ I can draw the board if you feel like doing a PCB and not using universal perfoboard like me :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 3:50 PM Subject: Anyone Local have a PLCC32 to DIP 28 adapter I could borrow ?!?!? > Anyone Local to ZIP 10512 have an adapter I could borrow for a day or two, > rather urgent.... > > > > Curt > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 19:32:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 17:32:33 -0800 Subject: Anyone Local have a PLCC32 to DIP 28 adapter I could borrow ?!?!? In-Reply-To: <4F2ACCEA.3020304@atarimuseum.com> References: <201202021535.q12FZTQs018290@floodgap.com>, <4F2ACCEA.3020304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4F2AC8B1.11717.1D976B9@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2012 at 12:50, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone Local to ZIP 10512 have an adapter I could borrow for a day or > two, rather urgent.... I've got an extra you can have, but I'm on the other side of the country. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 2 22:31:48 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 20:31:48 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board Message-ID: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com> I've got a board out of an old microwave oven here that I'm curious about. There are two ICs on the board--an MP1009ANLP (28 pin 0.600" wide DIP), which appears to be a TMS1000 MCU. I know that it's factory-programmed and PMOS (-15V Vdd), and that's a lost cause since I don't know what's in the ROM and there's no way to find out. However, there's one other DIP on the board--a 14 pin SN99324. I'm not certain, but it appears to be part of the LED driver circuitry (7 segment+decimal). Does anyone have a clue as to what a SN99324 is? --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 2 23:10:44 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 21:10:44 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Feb 2, at 8:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a board out of an old microwave oven here that I'm curious > about. There are two ICs on the board--an MP1009ANLP (28 pin 0.600" > wide DIP), which appears to be a TMS1000 MCU. I know that it's > factory-programmed and PMOS (-15V Vdd), and that's a lost cause since > I don't know what's in the ROM and there's no way to find out. > > However, there's one other DIP on the board--a 14 pin SN99324. I'm > not certain, but it appears to be part of the LED driver circuitry (7 > segment+decimal). > > Does anyone have a clue as to what a SN99324 is? Just a guess from the number, any chance of it being TI's numbering for a 324 quad op amp? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 00:12:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 22:12:11 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F2B0A3B.24833.2D9796C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2012 at 21:10, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Just a guess from the number, any chance of it being TI's numbering > for a 324 quad op amp? Good guess, but the power pins don't seem to line up. My best guess is an A-D converter (there's a temperature probe on this oven). --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 3 00:44:06 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 22:44:06 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2B0A3B.24833.2D9796C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2B0A3B.24833.2D9796C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <47E1A819-66E2-4049-85B5-2D09FE1E4DE7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 2, at 10:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2012 at 21:10, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >> Just a guess from the number, any chance of it being TI's numbering >> for a 324 quad op amp? > > Good guess, but the power pins don't seem to line up. My best guess > is an A-D converter (there's a temperature probe on this oven). Funny, the number shows up on parts reseller sites in searches, but no descriptions. I wonder if the entries are contrived. Is there a date code? (I'm guessing mid-late-70s). Haven't found any mention in the 1981 IC Master, which is generally pretty good for these sort of things. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 01:01:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2012 23:01:09 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <47E1A819-66E2-4049-85B5-2D09FE1E4DE7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2B0A3B.24833.2D9796C@cclist.sydex.com>, <47E1A819-66E2-4049-85B5-2D09FE1E4DE7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F2B15B5.31446.30650AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2012 at 22:44, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Is there a date code? (I'm guessing mid-late-70s). Haven't found any > mention in the 1981 IC Master, which is generally pretty good for > these sort of things. M7731, so I'm guessing 1977, which would be in line with the date on the MCU (7740). --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Feb 3 01:04:26 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 07:04:26 -0000 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202184605.GB31981@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120202184605.GB31981@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <6FFC88C6F32F479A94851BEAB6FDB270@Edicons.local> Hi The angled edge connectors are to decrease the insertion/extraction force. The DEC engineers used to do that to their extension boards. I see no reason why they would not fit a PDP8. Provided you know where the Omibus signals are. PS does any body know where in the UK I can beg or borrow a processor board set for a PDP8/e. I have memory loading fault on my 8/e that?s not n the memory. ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe Sent: 02 February 2012 18:46 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? Richard wrote: > > In article <20120202121101.GB30041 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>, > Holm Tiffe writes: > > > Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now > > and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own > > Experimental Board now: > > > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 > > Does Q-bus really require that the edge card fingers are angled like > shown in your picture? No it doesn't. But the russians done that with theyr QBUS Board copies and it works out really good. (Their boards are metric sized, they wouldn't fit) > > Oh, and the site you chose to share the picture pops up webcam porn > ads when I go to look at the picture. I suggest you use something > else that isn't trying to throw porn in my face just to look at your > board layout. Ah ok, I'll make a copy and load it on my own server. I'll mail this to my friend. > > > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. > > Have you looked at batchpcb.com? No. > -- [..] Ive mailed this to an other guy some minutes before, I'll simply copying some sentences here: >> I would like to know the price range, including shipping to the US for >> one and for two boards. > >Shipping isn't really a problem from here to the US (the other way around >really is a problem when I look at ebay, approx $45 for an 11/03 CPU from >the US to germany..), we have an "registered international Letter" wich >should be work out approx 5,50 Euros (Euro x 1.32 = US$) for 2 PCBs, >(even more bords, the Letter with a weight below 500 gramms costs 3,45 Euro >+ 2,05 Euro additional for the registering and insurance for approx 43 >Euros >(the last from the memory, since such a parcel from me got lost at USPS in >the US in the past). > >My Friend made the following statement: > >"Ich wollte mir 5 St?ck Q-Bus Lochrasterplatinen als Prototyp anfertigen >lassen. Das ist nicht so wirklich billig. >Als Kleinserie lohnt sich das bereits ab 10 St?ck. Dann kostet die Platine >je 39 Euro. Dann sogar inklusive L?tstopp, Aufdruck, Gold und anfasen. >Interessenten haben sich auch schon gemeldet. Mit meinen 5 Platinen sind es >schon 12 St?ck. Ab 18 St?ck sind es nur noch 27 Euro. Je mehr desto >billiger wirds." > >That meansi, that he wanted to make 5 boards for himself and that isn't >really cheap. A small batch ~10 pcs will be 39 Euros each with the solder >stopping laquer, the component print (signal numbers) gold plated and >an chamfered conncetor. >With an order over 18 peaces the price is 27 Euros. Wer are currently at 15 >peaces. (I take two, maybe one more..) > >We know that is not cheap in any regard, thats why we are looking for >people that wanting such boards also to order more.... BTW: This is a non profit price, we wan't such boards to have fun with PDP-11's, not to make money. I never seen a PDP-8 in nature, so please one of the people that know this should answer the guy in the other mail above if the boards would fit to an PDP-8, I simply don't know... Kind Reards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Feb 2 11:34:40 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 10:34:40 -0700 Subject: Commordore 64 character color cycling In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I'm not familiar with BG Micro (yet), but I know Unicorn has a hefty >> minimum, which Jameco does not (while you're there, though, you might as >> well pick up the socket as well and maybe some spare parts (like more >> 6502s). >Not long ago, Jameco had commodore PLAs for a song (something like a >dollar or less). I know a brazilian that bought 50 :o) >But remembering - You can put a 27C512 EPROM with a special bin in place >of a PLA! Google is your (best) friend! :D Any idea what part number you saw for the PLAs from Jameco? Although I have all the other ICs I need, I don't have a properly programmed N82S100. I am going to buy the sockets there anyway...I really wouldn't mind buying a programmer, especially if I could get a USB model that was reliable (the sparkfun model I saw did not rate well, but its $50).Is there a programmer that is less than $100 and will do the job?Kevin From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Feb 2 12:58:52 2012 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 19:58:52 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> hello, it is a good idea,but do you know this: http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html some months ago ,I made several circuit boards to reproduce the leningrad computer,a zx spectrum machine ,I paid 10 euro/board,I had to order five,their dimension is 22cm*11cm you can see them here: www.radio-astronomie.com/leningrad.htm best regards a.nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" To: Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2012 1:11 PM Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? > Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now > and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own > Experimental Board now: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 > > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. > Planned is gold plating and solder stop laquer and signal description > on the Bus pins. Boards where mady in germany, not the lowest prices > but quality is guaranteed. > We don't have the DEC DC00* Chips, so here are on your own, sorry. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 3 01:54:09 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 2 Feb 2012 23:54:09 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2B15B5.31446.30650AB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2B0A3B.24833.2D9796C@cclist.sydex.com>, <47E1A819-66E2-4049-85B5-2D09FE1E4DE7@cs.ubc.ca> <4F2B15B5.31446.30650AB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <15191957-642E-4ABF-9A05-5736C66C5D22@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 2, at 11:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2012 at 22:44, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Is there a date code? (I'm guessing mid-late-70s). Haven't found any >> mention in the 1981 IC Master, which is generally pretty good for >> these sort of things. > > M7731, so I'm guessing 1977, which would be in line with the date on > the MCU (7740). Well, I can't find any references for any SN99xxx ICs. I wonder if TI used SN99 as a prefix for custom ICs. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Feb 3 03:18:30 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 09:18:30 +0000 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F29CBF1.9050705@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4F27065D.5070505@dunnington.plus.com> <4F29CBF1.9050705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:34 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > John Many Jars wrote: > >> Pity... I have an Indy. ?I put linux on it, as the Irix install was messed >> up. ?It's the slowest linux box ever... (; > > > No it isn't. ?My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest > ever that's still in use :-) ?If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I could > find you copy CDs. I was going to run my linux BBS on it, but it was too slow for that, and I couldn't get postgres to run on it. I'd *love* to have a copy of Irix. I'd really appreciate that! -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want. ?So now, they'll all vote Republican. ?It's like when I want some bread, I won't settle for half a loaf. ?Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken glass." -Stephen Colbert From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 3 06:00:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:00:04 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> Message-ID: <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> nierveze wrote: > hello, > it is a good idea,but do you know this: > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html No, don't knew this site. It looks that eighter the holes from the boards there arent plated trough or there is no Gold connector involved or they have a smaller amount of holes. Inkl. shipping I think that wouldn't work out cheaper that our own boards. What we don't have is DEC like handles. I don't kow where my friend is ordering the boards, but I do have some out of it's hands here, know they are really good. (other things, network and memory cards for old 8/16 bit computers from the former GDR and such ...) > some months ago ,I made several circuit boards to reproduce the leningrad > computer,a zx spectrum machine ,I paid 10 euro/board,I had to order > five,their dimension is 22cm*11cm Again, no gold plating here and we want some on the connector. To decide if we would make such a board batch, we need to know who want's how many boards. Before we actually ordering the PCBs we would publish the exact costs incl. shipping. So an statement like "I'll take 2-5 depending on price" isn't wery helpful here, how we should calculate this then? We don't want to end with a big stock of such PCBs and have nothing left to live.. (This is hobbyism only) So please guys, mail me how many you want (with your full address please) I'll add them up and will calculate the prices for the batch and the shipping costs (below 500 gramms 5,50 Euro for all people of the world with DHL, insured for ~43 Euros and registered with tracking number, please don't ask what a boards weight is ..) I'll mail back to any who want'S some for the final ok before the order. Than it is at you to decide ok or not. After that you have to pay... (Payment should be possible trough paypal/CC, but please add the paypal fees to your costs, since this is a non profit job, ok?) That's really a risk, I know, but we know that we are good guys, what about you? (Below is my full address, try googling for my name or tiffitech and tsht_de @ ebay...) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Feb 3 07:51:30 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 08:51:30 -0500 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/02/12 7:00 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > nierveze wrote: > >> hello, >> it is a good idea,but do you know this: >> http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > No, don't knew this site. > It looks that eighter the holes from the boards there arent plated trough > or there is no Gold connector involved or they have a smaller amount of > holes. Inkl. shipping I think that wouldn't work out cheaper that our own > boards. What we don't have is DEC like handles. > I don't kow where my friend is ordering the boards, but I do have some out > of it's hands here, know they are really good. (other things, network and > memory cards for old 8/16 bit computers from the former GDR and such ...) > >> some months ago ,I made several circuit boards to reproduce the leningrad >> computer,a zx spectrum machine ,I paid 10 euro/board,I had to order >> five,their dimension is 22cm*11cm > > Again, no gold plating here and we want some on the connector. > > To decide if we would make such a board batch, we need to know who > want's how many boards. Before we actually ordering the PCBs we would > publish the exact costs incl. shipping. > > So an statement like "I'll take 2-5 depending on price" isn't wery helpful > here, how we should calculate this then? Oh, I'm well aware that you will have to be clever in the context of inexact figures. Look at it from our end, though. What I would do in this case, in order to help us (who don't have access to your pricing formula) is compute a worst case (everyone takes their minimum) and a best case (everyone takes their maximum). Then show these two price points to the list *before* asking for a commitment. Thanks. > We don't want to end with a big stock of such PCBs and have nothing left to > live.. (This is hobbyism only) > > So please guys, mail me how many you want ... --Toby > > Regards, > > Holm From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Feb 3 08:57:48 2012 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (LJW cctech) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:57:48 +0000 Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) Message-ID: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> Anyone wanting to see an IBM 360 Model 30, and not able to get to the CHM, can see the one on display at the Science and Technology Museum in Terrassa (immediately west of Barcelona.) This links shows what is on display, and where they came from: http://ordinadors.mnactec.cat/ibm-system360.html This is the exhibition catalogue: http://issuu.com/mnactec/docs/dossier-premsa-expo-historia-ordinador?mode=window&backgroundColor=%23222222 (Note - in Spanish, and Google translate doesn't help much with the first link, but you can work most of it out.) After a bit of a gap I have been busy on my 360/30 project, working on the 1050 (console typewriter) interface so that programs can have a sensible way of doing input and output (via a serial port.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 09:52:34 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:52:34 -0600 Subject: mail client evilness, was Re: architectural diversity, gcc - Re: C compilers and non-ASCII systems In-Reply-To: References: <20120131162102.GB30381@brevard.conman.org> <20120201090003.GA16575@Update.UU.SE> <4F2947A1.6050301@telegraphics.com.au> <8394255B-0477-4C9D-9F79-6D7BF67329F2@neurotica.com> <07FB8D94-015C-4085-A6FE-3A848FD60F1C@gmail.com> <201202011812.NAA18580@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2988DB.5080704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F2C02C2.8050200@gmail.com> On 02/01/2012 05:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > And of course, T'bird is quite happily cross-platform aware: I've > moved a TB2 message store freely between Mac OS X, Windows XP and > Linux with no problems. TB1 struggled with non-native path names - > TB2+ seem to just use relative paths and sort themselves out. I was > really quite impressed. Minor irritation yesterday when I upgraded to v10 and it slowed to a crawl for 16 hours while it indexed the mail store, but it seems to have finished and perked up now. Memory usage is a down a little, although the store size has increased quite a bit (presumably due to index files). I was really hoping that the latest version would do something sensible with the threading for this list, but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case :-( cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 09:44:15 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 09:44:15 -0600 Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F2C00CF.6030801@gmail.com> On 02/01/2012 01:26 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > (Want a Venn diagram how that could work as an intersection of the two?) In ASCII? That's madness! :-) From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 3 10:12:46 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:12:46 -0500 Subject: Anyone Local have a PLCC32 to DIP 28 adapter I could borrow ?!?!? In-Reply-To: <4F2AC8B1.11717.1D976B9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201202021535.q12FZTQs018290@floodgap.com>, <4F2ACCEA.3020304@atarimuseum.com> <4F2AC8B1.11717.1D976B9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F2C077E.20707@atarimuseum.com> Thanks everyone for the offers of help, I was able to take a spare 32 PLCC to 32 DIP adapter and wire it up to a perf board, put some headers on it and make a 32 to 28 pin adapter which it turns out wasn't too big of a deal, only about 5-10 mins worth of soldering, most of the pins are the same, just a few hand to be removed and the other bent over to line up, so I was able to make a quick and dirty solution and programmed the eeproms without a hitch, so again, thanks to everyone for the offers to help. Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2012 at 12:50, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> Anyone Local to ZIP 10512 have an adapter I could borrow for a day or >> two, rather urgent.... >> > > I've got an extra you can have, but I'm on the other side of the > country. > > --Chuck > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Feb 3 10:13:20 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 11:13:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: <4F2C00CF.6030801@gmail.com> References: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> <4F2C00CF.6030801@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201202031613.LAA08493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> (Want a Venn diagram how that could work as an intersection of the two?) > In ASCII? That's madness! :-) I'm sure it could be done equally well in EBCDIC if you prefer. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 11:08:04 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:08:04 -0500 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <6910CA22-77EB-45C1-BF1E-2AA4E2F84A95@gmail.com> On Feb 3, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > nierveze wrote: > >> hello, >> it is a good idea,but do you know this: >> http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > No, don't knew this site. > It looks that eighter the holes from the boards there arent plated trough > or there is no Gold connector involved or they have a smaller amount of > holes. Inkl. shipping I think that wouldn't work out cheaper that our own > boards. What we don't have is DEC like handles. > I don't kow where my friend is ordering the boards, but I do have some out > of it's hands here, know they are really good. (other things, network and > memory cards for old 8/16 bit computers from the former GDR and such ...) Douglas' breadboards are reputed to be rather nice, but if I recall correctly, you are right in that they are not just grids of holes. They have IC positions laid out, which may not be to everyone's liking, but may be preferable to some people. They are also not extremely cheap, especially with things like handles installed. I would be surprised if they didn't have gold plated card edges, though. You can always email and ask, though; I've used their layout software in the past and have always found them to be quite responsive. I haven't ordered a board from them in quite some time, though. >> some months ago ,I made several circuit boards to reproduce the leningrad >> computer,a zx spectrum machine ,I paid 10 euro/board,I had to order >> five,their dimension is 22cm*11cm > > Again, no gold plating here and we want some on the connector. They might offer that, but according to what I could make out of the French, it was a one-month turnaround. > So an statement like "I'll take 2-5 depending on price" isn't wery helpful > here, how we should calculate this then? > We don't want to end with a big stock of such PCBs and have nothing left to > live.. (This is hobbyism only) If you wind up with spares left over, ping me and I'll buy some. I'm not actively planning anything, so I'm not actively looking to buy anything, but if you need to move them, I'll gladly buy some of them so you're not under water. :-) - Dave From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Feb 3 11:44:24 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 17:44:24 +0000 Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) In-Reply-To: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> References: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051330DC05@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Nice...wish the catalog was in English. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of LJW cctech Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 8:58 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) Anyone wanting to see an IBM 360 Model 30, and not able to get to the CHM, can see the one on display at the Science and Technology Museum in Terrassa (immediately west of Barcelona.) This links shows what is on display, and where they came from: http://ordinadors.mnactec.cat/ibm-system360.html This is the exhibition catalogue: http://issuu.com/mnactec/docs/dossier-premsa-expo-historia-ordinador?mode=window&backgroundColor=%23222222 (Note - in Spanish, and Google translate doesn't help much with the first link, but you can work most of it out.) After a bit of a gap I have been busy on my 360/30 project, working on the 1050 (console typewriter) interface so that programs can have a sensible way of doing input and output (via a serial port.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Feb 3 12:35:56 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:35:56 +0000 Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) In-Reply-To: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> References: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7F8C13@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: LJW Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:58 AM > Anyone wanting to see an IBM 360 Model 30, and not able to get to the > CHM, can see the one on display at the Science and Technology Museum in > Terrassa (immediately west of Barcelona.) > This links shows what is on display, and where they came from: > http://ordinadors.mnactec.cat/ibm-system360.html > This is the exhibition catalogue: > http://issuu.com/mnactec/docs/dossier-premsa-expo-historia-ordinador?mode=window&backgroundColor=%23222222 > (Note - in Spanish, and Google translate doesn't help much with the > first link, but you can work most of it out.) Catalan, actually, which is probably why the translate didn't work so well. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 12:40:28 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:40:28 -0700 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? Message-ID: I saw something on someone's web site the other day claiming that the Tektronix 4027 was the first commercially available color raster graphics terminal. The 4027 first appears in the 1979 Tektronix catalog. I know there were vector based systems that were displaying color before that, but the question here is about raster based systems (i.e. pixel, not vector based). So the question becomes: was anyone else selling a raster color graphics terminal before Tektronix in 1979? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 13:04:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:04:42 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <15191957-642E-4ABF-9A05-5736C66C5D22@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2B15B5.31446.30650AB@cclist.sydex.com>, <15191957-642E-4ABF-9A05-5736C66C5D22@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4F2BBF4A.27837.6A144F@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2012 at 23:54, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, I can't find any references for any SN99xxx ICs. I wonder if TI > used SN99 as a prefix for custom ICs. It could also be that the part was later renamed. 70's TI parts were a bit of a mish-mash of conventions. I note that the Bi-MOS TL505C was a designed-for-TMS1000 ADC, but haven't checked the pinout yet. --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 13:06:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:06:48 -0500 Subject: SuperBrain Disks In-Reply-To: <201202031613.LAA08493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120201105206.D44692@shell.lmi.net> <20120201111418.J44692@shell.lmi.net> <4F2C00CF.6030801@gmail.com> <201202031613.LAA08493@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F858FC4-7CB5-43C3-9E76-C3802EDC7BC9@gmail.com> On Feb 3, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> (Want a Venn diagram how that could work as an intersection of the two?) >> In ASCII? That's madness! :-) > > I'm sure it could be done equally well in EBCDIC if you prefer. Sixbit only, please. On punch cards. Or paper tape, if you really must. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 13:12:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 11:12:55 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2012 at 11:40, Richard wrote: > I saw something on someone's web site the other day claiming that the > Tektronix 4027 was the first commercially available color raster > graphics terminal. The 4027 first appears in the 1979 Tektronix > catalog. > > I know there were vector based systems that were displaying color > before that, but the question here is about raster based systems (i.e. > pixel, not vector based). > > So the question becomes: was anyone else selling a raster color > graphics terminal before Tektronix in 1979? I think ISC had one--the Compucolor PC was 1977. I'm sure there were others. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 13:28:56 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:28:56 -0700 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F2BC137.17510.719B11 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 3 Feb 2012 at 11:40, Richard wrote: > > I saw something on someone's web site the other day claiming that the > > Tektronix 4027 was the first commercially available color raster > > graphics terminal. The 4027 first appears in the 1979 Tektronix > > catalog. > > > > I know there were vector based systems that were displaying color > > before that, but the question here is about raster based systems (i.e. > > pixel, not vector based). > > > > So the question becomes: was anyone else selling a raster color > > graphics terminal before Tektronix in 1979? > > I think ISC had one--the Compucolor PC was 1977. I'm sure there were > others. It's not really a terminal though, more like a home PC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:14:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:14:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F2AEDDD.5070708@verizon.net> from "allison" at Feb 2, 12 03:11:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 02/02/2012 01:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> John Many Jars wrote: > >> > >>> Pity... I have an Indy. I put linux on it, as the Irix install was messed > >>> up. It's the slowest linux box ever... (; > >> No it isn't. My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest > >> ever that's still in use :-) If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I > > Actually I doubt that. I think p850ug1 (this machine) is the slowest > > linux box currently in use. Can anyone beat 1.15 bogomips? > > > Yep, my 386sx/25 that was the 16bit databus variant for laptops and low > end systems. I am not convinced it's slower tham mine... This machine has the original PC/AT motherboard with a 16MHz master clock. The CPU is a 486SLC-thing on a kludgeboard plugged into the 80286 socket. 7-and-a-bit Megabytes of RAM, everythign on the ISA bus. > The system is actually AT class miniboard with 4 ISA slots (Video board, > comboboard 2 serial 1 parallel,and an IDE/FDC board) and maxed out > at 16MB of ram. In a very compact box for its time (about 1996). > Its .75bogomips running an old version Slackware. Decent command I am suprsied that it's that slow, given the higher master clock rate, and more RAM. > line machine but running X is SLOoowwww. That is officially the oldest Err, yes... I don't even try to run X on this machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:20:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:20:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F2B1DDD.5070303@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 2, 12 11:35:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 02/02/2012 20:11, allison wrote: > > On 02/02/2012 01:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I wrote > >>> No it isn't. My 486 laptop is the slowest ever, or at least the slowest > >>> ever that's still in use :-) If you wanted to put Irix 5.3 on it, I > >> Actually I doubt that. I think p850ug1 (this machine) is the slowest > >> linux box currently in use. Can anyone beat 1.15 bogomips? > >> > > Yep, my 386sx/25 that was the 16bit databus variant for laptops and low > > end systems. > > Yes, I should have known better than to make that claim! Most lists have 'My conputer is faster than yours...' type postings. Only on this list do people claim to have the slowest machines :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:37:48 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:37:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 2, 12 08:31:48 pm Message-ID: > However, there's one other DIP on the board--a 14 pin SN99324. I'm > not certain, but it appears to be part of the LED driver circuitry (7 > segment+decimal). > > Does anyone have a clue as to what a SN99324 is? Possibly a segment or digit driver? Can uoi trave out enough of the conenctions to see how it links to the display (display pinouts are easy and fun to find with an analogue ohmmeter) and power/ground, etc? If it appears to be driver IC, does it match any of the 75xxx parts? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:40:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:40:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <47E1A819-66E2-4049-85B5-2D09FE1E4DE7@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 2, 12 10:44:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 2012 Feb 2, at 10:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2 Feb 2012 at 21:10, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > > >> Just a guess from the number, any chance of it being TI's numbering > >> for a 324 quad op amp? > > > > Good guess, but the power pins don't seem to line up. My best guess > > is an A-D converter (there's a temperature probe on this oven). > > Funny, the number shows up on parts reseller sites in searches, but > no descriptions. I wonder if the entries are contrived. Qutie possibly. I am told that with some of these distributors, if you try to order anything they ask you how many pins/what package you want. Even for ICs that have only ever existed in one package (like the custom ICs for HP calculators)... It is rumoured they take any old IC with the right number of pins/package and print the number you want on it. Of course it won't work in the circuit, but that's your problem, not their's -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 3 13:58:36 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:58:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 3, 12 12:28:56 pm Message-ID: > > > I saw something on someone's web site the other day claiming that the > > > Tektronix 4027 was the first commercially available color raster > > > graphics terminal. The 4027 first appears in the 1979 Tektronix > > > catalog. > > > > > > I know there were vector based systems that were displaying color > > > before that, but the question here is about raster based systems (i.e. > > > pixel, not vector based). > > > > > > So the question becomes: was anyone else selling a raster color > > > graphics terminal before Tektronix in 1979? > > > > I think ISC had one--the Compucolor PC was 1977. I'm sure there were > > others. > > It's not really a terminal though, more like a home PC. I am pretty sure the dates on soem of the schematics for my I2S image processor/display systems is 1979, but again those are not really terminals, they are peripherals for minicomputers that connect to the processor bus/ They are raster, they do suppot a colour monitor. When did Sigma Graphics make their first colour terminal? I would guess it was one of the early ones. What about a prestel set? I remember hearign about Prestel in 1977, althohgh I doubt terminals were commonly available at that point. Prestel terminals were colour, but only supportyed block graphics (6 pixels per character cell), so you might not class them as graphics terminals. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 14:02:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:02:02 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: , <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F2BCCBA.7815.9E9411@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2012 at 12:28, Richard wrote: > It's not really a terminal though, more like a home PC. ISC Intecolor 8001. 1977. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 14:05:58 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:05:58 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: , <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F2BCDA6.29699.A22B71@cclist.sydex.com> Byte Dec. 1976 advertising the Intecolor 8001 terminal "Christmas Kit": http://www.8bitrocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/1976_byte_2.jpg Tek wasn't even close. --Chuck From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Feb 3 14:12:04 2012 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:12:04 +0100 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > However, there's one other DIP on the board--a 14 pin SN99324. I'm > not certain, but it appears to be part of the LED driver circuitry (7 > segment+decimal). > > Does anyone have a clue as to what a SN99324 is? > > Possibly a segment or digit driver? I may be completely wrong, but I seem to remember to have used 9316 (?) which are hexadecimal display drivers (0 .. 9 A B C D E F) But wasn't the 9316 (if I have that correct) from Fairchild? - Henk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 14:28:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 12:28:16 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <4F2AF2B4.26488.27D92B0@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 2, 12 08:31:48 pm, Message-ID: <4F2BD2E0.24251.B697A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2012 at 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: > Can uoi trave out enough of the conenctions to see how it links to > the display (display pinouts are easy and fun to find with an analogue > ohmmeter) and power/ground, etc? If it appears to be driver IC, does > it match any of the 75xxx parts? I don't think it's a decoder, but I'll buzz a few things out and see what I can discover. Recall that we're dealing with a PMOS MCU here, so I expect things to be a little strange. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 3 14:34:12 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:34:12 -0800 Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) In-Reply-To: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> References: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On 2012 Feb 3, at 6:57 AM, LJW cctech wrote: > Anyone wanting to see an IBM 360 Model 30, and not able to get to > the CHM, can see the one on display at the Science and Technology > Museum in Terrassa (immediately west of Barcelona.) > > This links shows what is on display, and where they came from: > http://ordinadors.mnactec.cat/ibm-system360.html > This is the exhibition catalogue: http://issuu.com/mnactec/docs/ > dossier-premsa-expo-historia-ordinador?mode=window&backgroundColor=% > 23222222 > > (Note - in Spanish, and Google translate doesn't help much with the > first link, but you can work most of it out.) > > After a bit of a gap I have been busy on my 360/30 project, working > on the 1050 (console typewriter) interface so that programs can > have a sensible way of doing input and output (via a serial port.) I love your tale of getting a real 360/30 going (I read it some years ago, too): http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/Saga.html Lots of interesting diagnosis & repair work. Do you know what eventually happened to the machine after you left it? From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 3 14:35:43 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:35:43 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/02/12 7:00 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >nierveze wrote: > > > >>hello, > >>it is a good idea,but do you know this: > >>http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > > >No, don't knew this site. > >It looks that eighter the holes from the boards there arent plated trough > >or there is no Gold connector involved or they have a smaller amount of > >holes. Inkl. shipping I think that wouldn't work out cheaper that our own > >boards. What we don't have is DEC like handles. > >I don't kow where my friend is ordering the boards, but I do have some out > >of it's hands here, know they are really good. (other things, network and > >memory cards for old 8/16 bit computers from the former GDR and such ...) > > > >>some months ago ,I made several circuit boards to reproduce the leningrad > >>computer,a zx spectrum machine ,I paid 10 euro/board,I had to order > >>five,their dimension is 22cm*11cm > > > >Again, no gold plating here and we want some on the connector. > > > >To decide if we would make such a board batch, we need to know who > >want's how many boards. Before we actually ordering the PCBs we would > >publish the exact costs incl. shipping. > > > >So an statement like "I'll take 2-5 depending on price" isn't wery helpful > >here, how we should calculate this then? > > Oh, I'm well aware that you will have to be clever in the context of > inexact figures. Look at it from our end, though. > > What I would do in this case, in order to help us (who don't have access > to your pricing formula) is compute a worst case (everyone takes their > minimum) and a best case (everyone takes their maximum). Then show these > two price points to the list *before* asking for a commitment. > > Thanks. > > >We don't want to end with a big stock of such PCBs and have nothing left to > >live.. (This is hobbyism only) > > > >So please guys, mail me how many you want ... > > > > --Toby > > > > >Regards, > > > >Holm Toby I'm already done what you suggested in the previous mails above. We currently need 3 more boards ito sell to reach a price of 27 Euros/Board. Remember: I must not sell. We want to give you a chance to get some boards to und make our own a little bit cheaper. If I get a board additionaly to the two that I wanted, there are still 2 left. It's not a big deal to sell 2 boards over ebay here if we have them left over. I you don't trust me, let it be. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 3 14:41:48 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:41:48 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0721317E-45F6-4DA9-B493-E8D9EA76E477@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 3, at 12:12 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> However, there's one other DIP on the board--a 14 pin SN99324. >> I'm not certain, but it appears to be part of the LED driver >> circuitry (7 segment+decimal). >> Does anyone have a clue as to what a SN99324 is? >> Possibly a segment or digit driver? > > I may be completely wrong, but I seem to remember to have used > 9316 (?) which are hexadecimal display drivers (0 .. 9 A B C D E F) > But wasn't the 9316 (if I have that correct) from Fairchild? Yes, Fairchild had a 93xx line of TTL. 9316 was a 4-bit counter, you're probably thinking of the 9368 & 9370 7-seg-hex decoders. From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 3 14:43:32 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:43:32 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <6910CA22-77EB-45C1-BF1E-2AA4E2F84A95@gmail.com> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <6910CA22-77EB-45C1-BF1E-2AA4E2F84A95@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120203204332.GC49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> David Riley wrote: > > On Feb 3, 2012, at 7:00 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > nierveze wrote: > > > >> hello, > >> it is a good idea,but do you know this: > >> http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > > > No, don't knew this site. > > It looks that eighter the holes from the boards there arent plated trough > > or there is no Gold connector involved or they have a smaller amount of > > holes. Inkl. shipping I think that wouldn't work out cheaper that our own > > boards. What we don't have is DEC like handles. > > I don't kow where my friend is ordering the boards, but I do have some out > > of it's hands here, know they are really good. (other things, network and > > memory cards for old 8/16 bit computers from the former GDR and such ...) > > Douglas' breadboards are reputed to be rather nice, but if I recall correctly, you are right in that they are not just grids of holes. They have IC positions laid out, which may not be to everyone's liking, but may be preferable to some people. They are also not extremely cheap, especially with things like handles installed. I would be surprised if they didn't have gold plated card edges, though. Yes, I want to put a CPLD in a PLCC Socket on the board, so your described layout is really not what I want (I have to mimicry the functionality of the DEC Chipset, eg Vector Register and such in the CPLD) > > You can always email and ask, though; I've used their layout software in the past and have always found them to be quite responsive. I haven't ordered a board from them in quite some time, though. > > >> some months ago ,I made several circuit boards to reproduce the leningrad > >> computer,a zx spectrum machine ,I paid 10 euro/board,I had to order > >> five,their dimension is 22cm*11cm > > > > Again, no gold plating here and we want some on the connector. > > They might offer that, but according to what I could make out of the French, it was a one-month turnaround. Half the time is expected here, including shipping. > > > So an statement like "I'll take 2-5 depending on price" isn't wery helpful > > here, how we should calculate this then? > > We don't want to end with a big stock of such PCBs and have nothing left to > > live.. (This is hobbyism only) > > If you wind up with spares left over, ping me and I'll buy some. I'm not actively planning anything, so I'm not actively looking to buy anything, but if you need to move them, I'll gladly buy some of them so you're not under water. :-) > > > - Dave > Since we don't want to produce "masses", the left over boards will get to Ebay Germany for sure. That's the smallest amount of hassle in this case, sorry. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 14:46:33 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:46:33 -0700 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: <4F2BCCBA.7815.9E9411@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2BCCBA.7815.9E9411@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F2BCCBA.7815.9E9411 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 3 Feb 2012 at 12:28, Richard wrote: > > > It's not really a terminal though, more like a home PC. > > ISC Intecolor 8001. 1977. old-computers.com has this classified as a home computer and I'd say I agree from the description. (old-computers.com generally eschews a listing for anything that is a terminal, although there are a few exceptions.) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 14:49:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:49:30 -0700 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: <4F2BCDA6.29699.A22B71@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2BCDA6.29699.A22B71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F2BCDA6.29699.A22B71 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Byte Dec. 1976 advertising the Intecolor 8001 terminal "Christmas > Kit": > > http://www.8bitrocket.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/1976_byte_2.jpg OK, that's different than the compucolor I shown at old-computers.com and I'd say yeah that qualifies as a terminal because they're specficially marketing it as such and then including options to upgrade it to local processing, i.e. home computer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 3 14:51:04 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 12:51:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Feb 3, 12 07:14:41 pm" Message-ID: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> > I am not convinced it's slower tham mine... This machine has the original > PC/AT motherboard with a 16MHz master clock. The CPU is a 486SLC-thing > on a kludgeboard plugged into the 80286 socket. 7-and-a-bit Megabytes of > RAM, everythign on the ISA bus. You probably win, but I run NetBSD/mac68k on a Mac IIci with the original 25MHz '030. It has 128MB of RAM and takes several minutes to pass POST. I now run it without a cache card because that was the major reason why it would kernel panic after some months of uptime (the cache card would inevitably blow a cap). So it's slower, but it's happy. > > line machine but running X is SLOoowwww. That is officially the oldest > > Err, yes... I don't even try to run X on this machine... dt works nice on it, but that's as high as it goes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Surrender" from "Tomorrow Never Dies" ------------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:10:51 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:10:51 -0500 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120203204332.GC49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <6910CA22-77EB-45C1-BF1E-2AA4E2F84A95@gmail.com> <20120203204332.GC49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: On Feb 3, 2012, at 3:43 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Since we don't want to produce "masses", the left over boards will get to > Ebay Germany for sure. That's the smallest amount of hassle in this case, > sorry. No problem, just offering an avenue to offload any extras if you made them and if it would be more convenient. Sounds like you already have one. :-) - Dave From oe5ewl at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:19:30 2012 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:19:30 +0100 Subject: Assistance in reading old Tapes needing Message-ID: Hi all, I'd need assistance (hardware or actually reading in the tape) in reading some old 1600bpi PDP11 Tapes - containing an old operating System. If you can help, I'd appreciate if you contact me off list. Regards, Wolfgang PS: I have a tape drive but the unit is completely dead. Two local contacts which had working drives told me a sad story: Drives decomissioned, scrapped etc...... -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 15:20:30 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:20:30 -0700 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? Message-ID: I know we can get the DEC board handles from Douglas. I seem to recall that there isn't a good supplier for the front panel toggle switches of various colors. Recently the Pocket Factory guys visited our make space and they were asking for ideas for little things they could print that could supply a market demand. The only thing I could think of were the plastic toggle switches and board handles. I'd forgotten about Douglas supplying the board handles until our recent thread about Qbus prototying boards. Is there a supplier for the toggle switches? Obviously printed parts aren't molded so they are obvious replicas, but they can be cheaply made in small quantities if a design file is available. If this is something you'd like to try out, I suggest you contact the pocket factory folks directly at hello at pocketfactory.org. I discussed the idea with them last week, so if you reply relatively soon, they should remember the conversation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 3 15:22:40 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:22:40 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120203212240.GD49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Since prices for origianl (old) double size QBUS Boards are exploding now > and my friends and me wanting to play anyways, we decided to make our own > Experimental Board now: > > http://www.robotrontechnik.de/html/forum/thwb/showtopic.php?threadid=8008 > > Prices are heavyly depending on the number of boards made, so I anyone > want's one or mor, please mail me or my friend redhead.kc85 at t-online.de. > Planned is gold plating and solder stop laquer and signal description > on the Bus pins. Boards where mady in germany, not the lowest prices > but quality is guaranteed. > We don't have the DEC DC00* Chips, so here are on your own, sorry. > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 Answering my self :-) My friend doesn't make boards for other people the first time, we had Boards for other things from him at our community www.robotrontechnik.de in the past. There where memory Boards for an P8000, an Z8000 Unix Computer like the Zilog S8000, and a network board and a generic IDE Interface (GIDE)for Z80 Systems from Robotron in the past. It was my idea to ask here, since I tought somewone is interested here too. PDP-11's wheren't used in the former GDR (at least not officially) so the amount of Fans to this architecture in our Web Forum is small. We had all the questions like them here on prices of the other boards to, but in the Forum at Robotrontechnik.de. The process worked fine for all of us. We know, that the company that maked the PCBs in the past had good quality, and please understand that we not asking companies all over the world to make the cheapest possible boards now, since then we are the rougues that maked the shit happen. Who want's to make a law suit against a company in china or india? So if you want such boards, mail me, my friend, or simply to that list how many boards you want. I'll ad them up, calculate the actual price and will ask back any single person that responded if I should place the order with this amount to that price now. If I get the ok, prepaying trough paypal should happen, we order the boards and we will ship them at least 2-3 days after the arrival. Every person will get the tracking code for DHL. As long as the parcel is below 500 Gramms, the shipping cost is fixed ad 5,50 Euros. http://www.deutschepost.de/mlm.nf/dpag/briefe_ins_ausland/brief/index.html Before someone is asking: DHL is Deutsche Post, there is no difference, at least here in Germany. As you can see, the postage for an 500 Gramms "Letter" is 3,45 Euros, there is a "Weltweit verf?gbare Zusatzleistungen", the registering with insurance for 2,05 Euros additionally, so it sums up to 5,50 Euros. Packing is done for free from me, but sorry, that's alls what I want to make for free, there is no credit until next year and there is no credit until next week. You have to look at the german page of "Deutschepost". they do have an english verision on their site, but it simply doesn't work (dead link). I don't want to get rich with your money but I don't want to loose money also. We make no profit besides of the falling costs of our own boards if we order more of them. We wanted to give you just a chance to get what we will make. If you want no risk, than there is no fun so simple is this. There is no such thing "free lunch". We will wait until wednesday next week. I'll continue to answer questions. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 15:24:59 2012 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 13:24:59 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com> <4F2BCCBA.7815.9E9411@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> > It's not really a terminal though, more like a home PC. >> >> ISC Intecolor 8001. ?1977. > > old-computers.com has this classified as a home computer and I'd say I > agree from the description. ?(old-computers.com generally eschews a > listing for anything that is a terminal, although there are a few > exceptions.) It could be both. It originally came out as an intelligent color terminal. However ISC added a card cage and turned it into a CPM type computer. I seem to remember it used STD bus cards. And an external flat 8 inch floppy box. I had several go through my hands in the early 1990s. I think I even got an early trackball with one. Wished I had saved that one -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Feb 3 15:26:41 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 22:26:41 +0100 Subject: Other Image Location, was:Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Since I've got some criticism about the free hoster, here is the image from the board layout at my own page: http://www.tiffe.de/images/DEC-board.jpg Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Feb 3 15:26:51 2012 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:26:51 +0000 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3 February 2012 19:58, Tony Duell wrote: > What ?about a prestel set? I remember hearign about Prestel in 1977, > althohgh I doubt terminals were commonly available at that point. Prestel > terminals were colour, but only supportyed block graphics (6 pixels per > character cell), so you might not class them as graphics terminals. According to a book in front of me, the teletext standard, was ratified in January 1974. This had provision for colour and graphics. (The IBA test transmissions in 1973 were 22 lines x 40 characters, capitals and numerals only - the BBC were working on 24x32.) Prestel was developed a bit later, so adopted the same format as it was intended to be built into TV sets in the same manner, although dedicated terminals did appear later. Rob -- www.viewdata.org.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 16:33:52 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 14:33:52 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: , <4F2BCDA6.29699.A22B71@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F2BF050.32088.1299594@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2012 at 13:49, Richard wrote: > OK, that's different than the compucolor I shown at old-computers.com > and I'd say yeah that qualifies as a terminal because they're > specficially marketing it as such and then including options to > upgrade it to local processing, i.e. home computer. I remember getting one of these in for evaluation about 1979. Not very fast. We were considering adding color graphics in our offerings catalog. At about $1000 OEM prices, it was somewhat attractive. Marketing sent their people out to talk to existing customers. Most said they had no need for graphics, much less color, so the idea was dropped. I was trying to remember what the name was--I could remember the keyboard (multicolored) quite vividly. All that came to mind was "something"-color. It was most decidely an RS-232C terminal. No disk drives, no way to enter a program. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 16:52:32 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:52:32 -0600 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: in;ess u got a $100,000 plus 3d printer at ur disposal its not really worth prating replica parts for this purpose On Fri, Feb 3, 2012 at 3:20 PM, Richard wrote: > I know we can get the DEC board handles from Douglas. > > I seem to recall that there isn't a good supplier for the front panel > toggle switches of various colors. > > Recently the Pocket Factory guys visited our make space and they were > asking for ideas for little things they could print that could supply > a market demand. > > The only thing I could think of were the plastic toggle switches and > board handles. I'd forgotten about Douglas supplying the board > handles until our recent thread about Qbus prototying boards. > > Is there a supplier for the toggle switches? > > Obviously printed parts aren't molded so they are obvious replicas, > but they can be cheaply made in small quantities if a design file is > available. > > If this is something you'd like to try out, I suggest you contact the > pocket factory folks directly at hello at pocketfactory.org. I discussed > the idea with them last week, so if you reply relatively soon, they > should remember the conversation. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 3 16:57:07 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 14:57:07 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Feb 3, at 11:28 AM, Richard wrote: > In article <4F2BC137.17510.719B11 at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> On 3 Feb 2012 at 11:40, Richard wrote: >>> I saw something on someone's web site the other day claiming that >>> the >>> Tektronix 4027 was the first commercially available color raster >>> graphics terminal. The 4027 first appears in the 1979 Tektronix >>> catalog. >>> >>> I know there were vector based systems that were displaying color >>> before that, but the question here is about raster based systems >>> (i.e. >>> pixel, not vector based). >>> >>> So the question becomes: was anyone else selling a raster color >>> graphics terminal before Tektronix in 1979? There was the COMTAL image processor/display around 1974. It's a little more than just a simple display but it was intended as an IO device to hang off a mini or mainframe. Mentioned in here: http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/baumanpr/geosat2/RS%20History%20II/ RS-History-Part-2.html A brochure with some architectural description: http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=a- c&company=com-4374ca1b5a4a0 I remember playing with one in 1980. From md.benson at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 17:12:07 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 23:12:07 +0000 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3138F166-045D-4BBB-AC89-07AAD2F9EF82@gmail.com> On 3 Feb 2012, at 22:52, Adrian Stoness wrote: > in;ess u got a $100,000 plus 3d printer at ur disposal its not really worth > prating replica parts for this purpose Why? If all you want is a cheap replica for occasional use then why do you need a stupidly expensive rig? I for one would be interested in a set of 22-bit PDP-11 style switches for a project. -- Mark Benson http://DECtec.info Twitter: @DECtecInfo HECnet: STAR69::MARK Online Resource & Mailing List for DEC Enthusiasts. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Feb 3 17:15:21 2012 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:15:21 +0000 Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7F8C13@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7F8C13@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <1328310921.2283.1.camel@entasis> On Fri, 2012-02-03 at 18:35 +0000, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: LJW > Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 6:58 AM > > > Anyone wanting to see an IBM 360 Model 30, and not able to get to the > > CHM, can see the one on display at the Science and Technology Museum in > > Terrassa (immediately west of Barcelona.) > > > This links shows what is on display, and where they came from: > > http://ordinadors.mnactec.cat/ibm-system360.html > > This is the exhibition catalogue: > > http://issuu.com/mnactec/docs/dossier-premsa-expo-historia-ordinador?mode=window&backgroundColor=%23222222 > > > (Note - in Spanish, and Google translate doesn't help much with the > > first link, but you can work most of it out.) > > Catalan, actually, which is probably why the translate didn't work so well. Yes, sorry, realised afterwards. Letting Google automatically detect the language works better! -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From lawrence at ljw.me.uk Fri Feb 3 17:22:19 2012 From: lawrence at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 23:22:19 +0000 Subject: IBM 360/30 on display in Terrassa (Barcelona) In-Reply-To: References: <2143fe7f272ef3cebd07d1ae5277d023@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <1328311339.2283.8.camel@entasis> On Fri, 2012-02-03 at 12:34 -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I love your tale of getting a real 360/30 going (I read it some years > ago, too): > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/Saga.html > Lots of interesting diagnosis & repair work. > > Do you know what eventually happened to the machine after you left it? > I didn't find out until relatively recently, but in the "mid 90s" the Auckland University Computer Science department were invited to look at the machine and got the front panel (it would have been difficult to do much more in a short time, given where it was.) That would have been something like 10 years after I abandoned it! You can follow the link from my page to their info. The other thing I recently found on www.ibm.com was a photo of "the first IBM System/360 in Australia in 1966" which I think is the same machine (also a link from my page.) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 17:40:37 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 16:40:37 -0700 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , Brent Hilpert writes: > There was the COMTAL image processor/display around 1974. > It's a little more than just a simple display but it was intended as > an IO device to hang off a mini or mainframe. > > Mentioned in here: > http://www.oneonta.edu/faculty/baumanpr/geosat2/RS%20History%20II/ > RS-History-Part-2.html > > A brochure with some architectural description: > http://www.computerhistory.org/brochures/companies.php?alpha=a- > c&company=com-4374ca1b5a4a0 > > I remember playing with one in 1980. Yeah, this isn't what I would call a terminal, but more typical of the graphics systems of the time: a peripheral you would attach to a mini. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 3 18:03:34 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 16:03:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120203155807.K37854@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 3 Feb 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > in;ess I can't figure out what word you mean! > u got a $100,000 plus 3d printer at ur disposal its not really worth > prating "printing"? "pirating"? "prattling"? > replica parts for this purpose Seems like a reasonable trivial project to demonstrate the operation of the printer. From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 18:37:52 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 19:37:52 -0500 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 3, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > in;ess u got a $100,000 plus 3d printer at ur disposal its not really worth > prating replica parts for this purpose Where does the $100K figure come from? I think the pocketfactory guys are using a RepRap variant, which usually weigh in at less than $700 for all the parts. You can get pre-printed kits for very nice variants of the extruder (the most involved part) for less than $300 off eBay (doesn't include the stepper, but it can use $20 NEMA form factor ones). I don't think the quality would be *as* nice as the original, but unlike the DEC switches, they'd be available. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 19:05:42 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 19:05:42 -0600 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2C8466.5050202@gmail.com> On 02/03/2012 06:37 PM, David Riley wrote: > I don't think the quality would be *as* nice as the original, but unlike > the DEC switches, they'd be available. I was at the local high school and looking at some of their in-house 3D-printed stuff the other evening; I was rather impressed with the quality. It wasn't the smooth surface that I remember DEC switches being, but OTOH it gave the impression of something that had been molded with an intentional 'mottled' surface, rather than printed with the subsequent "blobby" results that I've seen from a lot of online videos. I'll have to see if I can find out what system they have... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 3 19:06:58 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 19:06:58 -0600 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: <20120203155807.K37854@shell.lmi.net> References: <20120203155807.K37854@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F2C84B2.8090502@gmail.com> On 02/03/2012 06:03 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> u got a $100,000 plus 3d printer at ur disposal its not really worth >> prating > > "printing"? > "pirating"? > "prattling"? And while we're at it... "ur"! :-) From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 19:28:26 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:28:26 -0700 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Riley writes: > Where does the $100K figure come from? I think the pocketfactory guys > are us ing a RepRap variant, which usually weigh in at less than $700 > for all the part s. They have a makerbot and an Up! 3D printer > I don't think the quality would be *as* nice as the original, but > unlike the DEC switches, they'd be available. Yeah, they won't be molded, but they can be printed on demand and would be cheap. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 3 19:29:32 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:29:32 -0700 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: <4F2C8466.5050202@gmail.com> References: <4F2C8466.5050202@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <4F2C8466.5050202 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > On 02/03/2012 06:37 PM, David Riley wrote: > > I don't think the quality would be *as* nice as the original, but unlike > > the DEC switches, they'd be available. > > I was at the local high school and looking at some of their in-house > 3D-printed stuff the other evening; I was rather impressed with the > quality. It wasn't the smooth surface that I remember DEC switches being, > but OTOH it gave the impression of something that had been molded with an > intentional 'mottled' surface, rather than printed with the subsequent > "blobby" results that I've seen from a lot of online videos. I'll have to > see if I can find out what system they have... You can get the smooth surface finish by doing a little hand sanding. You could also paint the surface to get a good color match to your existing switches as well. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Feb 3 19:41:13 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 01:41:13 +0000 Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2C8CB9.6090003@philpem.me.uk> On 01/02/12 21:13, Tony Duell wrote: > of pairs of wires. Moving wires in the mdidle of an already-soldered > mini-DIN is a lot worse than DMD rework :-) Try repairing the upper right corner of an A3000 motherboard some time. That's the bit with all the fine-pitch tracks running under the Podule connector. This damage was caused by me mentioning to a friend "I need to take the motherboard out and drill a hole in the case for the I2C DIN socket..." He took a B&D drill, loaded a 10mm bit and drilled the case. With the motherboard still installed. "Oh, I thought you'd already removed the motherboard...?" I did it with a Metcal MFR-1110, the 0.4mm conical bit and some wire-wrap wire. It wasn't fun, and it wasn't easy, but it's electrically sound and the Podule socket actually works now... :) If it wasn't for the round profile of the tracks and the silver plating (instead of green solder mask) it'd look fairly original. Now I just need to find some instructions for replacing the Caps / Num / Scroll, Power and Disk LEDs on the keyboard assembly. > I did find a CPC-branded 'replacement' mouse for the Archmedes in a > chraity shop many years a go, No, I am not sellign it :-) That's exactly what CJE were selling for ?43. At least a 4:1 markup by my hazy reckoning. They've got used Acorn RiscPC/A5000 mice for about 30 notes though, but that's still expensive (especially for used). > button swithces on the front), but also with an Acorn mouse that had > had the 9 pin mini-DIN cut off and been rewired to a DE9 plug to fit the > MG1. Meh. The MG1 is infinitely cooler than (almost) any Acorn. A working Phoebe would be the only thing that could hope to come close (and as I understand it, there's only one of those -- an escaped prototype). > I repired the original mouse (I had some suitable switches in the > junk box, and the buttons just clop on) but of course I also kept the > Acorn one. But it's no use on an Acorn machine any more. Especially now 9P Mini-DINs are basically unobtainium. >> Actually, I could probably route one through the back. There are some >> pads on the board marked "ALTERNATE MOUSE" which appear to connect to >> the mouse socket. I'd sooner hide a PIC micro and a PS/2 socket inside >> though. Get rid of the external adapter entirely :) > > Are those pads at a suitalbe spacing to fit some kind of plug to the PCB > (e.g. a Molex KK)? If so, fit it and make whatever plug-in adapter you > need... Indeed. Using Mk.1 Eyeball, they're 0.1in pitch. A KK would probably fit, though I'd be more tempted to use a Harwin machined-pin header (smaller pins, more likely to fit through the tiny holes). The board's been wave soldered though, so the holes are full of solder... > I agree. I hade mini-DINs, They are painful to wire, and don't make good > contact even when new. Are they really a DIN standard, or are they named > miniDIN simply becuase they look like a smaller version of the well-known > audio conenctor? Pass on that one. What are your thoughts on the full-size DIN connector? I thought those were fairly decent, if a little big. My A3000 uses a 5pin 180-degree full-size DIN for the I2C connector. I have a Solidisk Teletext adapter which plugs into that, though it's scarcely any use now there's no Teletext to receive. Maybe one day I'll build a VBI inserter/databridge to go with it... Now the phono connector... don't get me started on that one. Whoever decided that the signal pin should make contact before ground should have been subjected to a very painful end... Jack plugs are worse though. Short-circuit on hot-connect, crosstalk, pops 'n' snaps a-plenty, shoddy strain relief grips... Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Feb 3 20:07:25 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 18:07:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2012, Adrian Stoness wrote: > in;ess u got a $100,000 plus 3d printer at ur disposal its not really worth > prating replica parts for this purpose > GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! *head explodes* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 3 20:24:53 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:24:53 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F2C2675.18842.1FD16A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2012 at 21:12, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I may be completely wrong, but I seem to remember to have used > 9316 (?) which are hexadecimal display drivers (0 .. 9 A B C D E F) > But wasn't the 9316 (if I have that correct) from Fairchild? After a bit of probing, it's pretty obvious it's a PMOS 14-pin DIP with pin 3 = GND and pin 12 = Vdd = -15V. I'll have to see about interconnections with the TMS1000--there are a few. The board itself is supplied with -5 and -15 volts, so nothing on the board is TTL. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Feb 3 23:07:38 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 3 Feb 2012 21:07:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Feb 2012, Richard wrote: > In article , > David Riley writes: > >> Where does the $100K figure come from? I think the pocketfactory guys >> are us ing a RepRap variant, which usually weigh in at less than $700 >> for all the part s. > > They have a makerbot and an Up! 3D printer > >> I don't think the quality would be *as* nice as the original, but >> unlike the DEC switches, they'd be available. > > Yeah, they won't be molded, but they can be printed on demand and > would be cheap. I think for acceptable switch cover replacements, you'd have to use one of those 3D printers that uses a polymer powder upon which layers of hardener are sprayed inkjet style. You get reasonably smooth edges that way. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 4 04:46:48 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 11:46:48 +0100 Subject: Other Image Location, was:Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120204104648.GC53123@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Holm Tiffe wrote: > Since I've got some criticism about the free hoster, here is the image from > the board layout at my own page: > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/DEC-board.jpg > > Regards, > > Holm > -- We have currently orders for 25 pcs, so the current price is 27 Euros. More than 27 pcs 24 Euros, next is 36 pcs. 21 Euros. US Dollar to Euro is currently 1,316:1 (yahoo currency converter) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 05:22:25 2012 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 06:22:25 -0500 Subject: Other Image Location, was:Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120204104648.GC53123@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120204104648.GC53123@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: Just a heads up, imgur.com is a real good image host! Minimal ads and allows hotlinking also On Feb 4, 2012 5:50 AM, "Holm Tiffe" wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > Since I've got some criticism about the free hoster, here is the image > from > > the board layout at my own page: > > > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/DEC-board.jpg > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > -- > > We have currently orders for 25 pcs, so the current price is > 27 Euros. More than 27 pcs 24 Euros, next is 36 pcs. 21 Euros. > US Dollar to Euro is currently 1,316:1 (yahoo currency converter) > > Regards, > > Holm > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 4 06:12:02 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 13:12:02 +0100 Subject: ROI BSB-11 Card for PDP11? Message-ID: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Hi, I got an PDP11 board, labeled BSB11 from ROI. There are some diag LEDsi for Power and some BUS Signals, something that looks like an connector for an front paneel, an hughe field of soldering points for placing own circuits, an 5.0688Mhz Crytal oscillator, an GAL, and some 74xx ICs on board. Does someone know what that circuity on the board should do? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 4 06:21:44 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 13:21:44 +0100 Subject: Other Image Location, was:Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120204104648.GC53123@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120204122144.GA53797@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Gary Sparkes wrote: > Just a heads up, imgur.com is a real good image host! Minimal ads and > allows hotlinking also THX, Gary, but this isn't a problem. I don't must pay for the traffic on www.tiffe.de. > On Feb 4, 2012 5:50 AM, "Holm Tiffe" wrote: > > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > Since I've got some criticism about the free hoster, here is the image > > from > > > the board layout at my own page: > > > > > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/DEC-board.jpg > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Holm > > > -- > > > > We have currently orders for 25 pcs, so the current price is > > 27 Euros. More than 27 pcs 24 Euros, next is 36 pcs. 21 Euros. > > US Dollar to Euro is currently 1,316:1 (yahoo currency converter) > > > > Regards, > > > > Holm > > -- > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > We are currently at 27 peaces, so the price is down to 24 Euros/pcb. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Feb 4 06:27:28 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 13:27:28 +0100 Subject: ROI BSB-11 Card for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F2D2430.9060701@e-bbes.com> On 2012-02-04 13:12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Hi, > I got an PDP11 board, labeled BSB11 from ROI. > There are some diag LEDsi for Power and some BUS Signals, > something that looks like an connector for an front paneel, > an hughe field of soldering points for placing own circuits, > an 5.0688Mhz Crytal oscillator, an GAL, and some 74xx ICs on board. > Does someone know what that circuity on the board should do? pictures? From mokuba at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 06:35:03 2012 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 07:35:03 -0500 Subject: Other Image Location, was:Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120204122144.GA53797@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120204104648.GC53123@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120204122144.GA53797@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: Good to hear too. Imgur is funded by minimal ads and premium accounts, but hosting for images and having basic accounts is and will always be 100% free. (Just a heads up for all who may need this service in the future). On Feb 4, 2012 7:24 AM, "Holm Tiffe" wrote: > Gary Sparkes wrote: > > > Just a heads up, imgur.com is a real good image host! Minimal ads and > > allows hotlinking also > > THX, Gary, but this isn't a problem. > I don't must pay for the traffic on www.tiffe.de. > > > On Feb 4, 2012 5:50 AM, "Holm Tiffe" wrote: > > > > > Holm Tiffe wrote: > > > > > > > Since I've got some criticism about the free hoster, here is the > image > > > from > > > > the board layout at my own page: > > > > > > > > http://www.tiffe.de/images/DEC-board.jpg > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > Holm > > > > -- > > > > > > We have currently orders for 25 pcs, so the current price is > > > 27 Euros. More than 27 pcs 24 Euros, next is 36 pcs. 21 Euros. > > > US Dollar to Euro is currently 1,316:1 (yahoo currency converter) > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Holm > > > -- > > > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > > > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > > > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > > > > > We are currently at 27 peaces, so the price is down to 24 Euros/pcb. > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 4 07:41:43 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 14:41:43 +0100 Subject: ROI BSB-11 Card for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <4F2D2430.9060701@e-bbes.com> References: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2D2430.9060701@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20120204134143.GB53959@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-02-04 13:12, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >Hi, > >I got an PDP11 board, labeled BSB11 from ROI. > >There are some diag LEDsi for Power and some BUS Signals, > >something that looks like an connector for an front paneel, > >an hughe field of soldering points for placing own circuits, > >an 5.0688Mhz Crytal oscillator, an GAL, and some 74xx ICs on board. > >Does someone know what that circuity on the board should do? > pictures? http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/ROI-BSB11.jpg Made this in the meantime :-)) Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Feb 4 08:10:38 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:10:38 +0100 Subject: ROI BSB-11 Card for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <20120204134143.GB53959@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2D2430.9060701@e-bbes.com> <20120204134143.GB53959@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F2D3C5E.4090102@e-bbes.com> On 2012-02-04 14:41, Holm Tiffe wrote: > http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/ROI-BSB11.jpg > Made this in the meantime Don't see any wires going to the bus on the top. Picture of the solder side? But probably it is a bus analyzer of some sort. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Feb 4 10:45:46 2012 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 08:45:46 -0800 Subject: ROI BSB-11 Card for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <4F2D3C5E.4090102@e-bbes.com> References: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2D2430.9060701@e-bbes.com> <20120204134143.GB53959@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2D3C5E.4090102@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: At 3:10 PM +0100 2/4/12, emanuel stiebler wrote: >On 2012-02-04 14:41, Holm Tiffe wrote: >>http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/ROI-BSB11.jpg >>Made this in the meantime >Don't see any wires going to the bus on the top. Picture of the solder side? >But probably it is a bus analyzer of some sort. Bus analyzer or possibly a prototyping card with some built in functionality? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 4 11:21:37 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 12:21:37 -0500 Subject: Other Image Location, was:Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120203212641.GE49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120204104648.GC53123@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120204122144.GA53797@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <34780C78-6C68-4109-AD57-78533636A68A@neurotica.com> On Feb 4, 2012, at 7:35 AM, Gary Sparkes wrote: > Good to hear too. Imgur is funded by minimal ads and premium accounts, but > hosting for images and having basic accounts is and will always be 100% > free. Yeah. PayPal said that too. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 4 13:01:04 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:01:04 +0100 Subject: ROI BSB-11 Card for PDP11? In-Reply-To: <4F2D3C5E.4090102@e-bbes.com> References: <20120204121202.GA53576@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2D2430.9060701@e-bbes.com> <20120204134143.GB53959@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2D3C5E.4090102@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20120204190104.GC54806@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2012-02-04 14:41, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >http://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP11/ROI-BSB11.jpg > >Made this in the meantime > Don't see any wires going to the bus on the top. Picture of the solder side? > But probably it is a bus analyzer of some sort. Yes, for sure since there are some BUS signals near the LEDs printed on the PCB. But to what they need a crystal OSC? I make more pics tomorrow. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 13:50:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 19:50:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 3, 12 06:29:32 pm Message-ID: > You can get the smooth surface finish by doing a little hand sanding. > You could also paint the surface to get a good color match to your > existing switches as well. I think painint htem is a bad idea, in that the paint will wear off (think of how much use front panel toggles get). Is it possible to get the raw plastic for such pritners in different colours? Also, how strong are 3D pritned parts comapred to injection-moulded ones?The original ones do break so if the replacements are significantly weaker, they're not goign to last. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 14:17:54 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:17:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2C2675.18842.1FD16A9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 12 06:24:53 pm Message-ID: > > The board itself is supplied with -5 and -15 volts, so nothing on the > board is TTL. Egh> You ave a 5V supply between ground (+ve) and the -5V rail (-ve). That could bn sued to run TTL. I've not seen the board but I don;t think I can say from what you've told us that there can't be any TTL on the board. You might want to look at the schematic for the original Big Trak. (It's on the web somewhere). That used a TMS1000 processor and a driver IC (to drive the motors, lamp, etc). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 14:15:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 20:15:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: <4F2C8CB9.6090003@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 4, 12 01:41:13 am Message-ID: > > On 01/02/12 21:13, Tony Duell wrote: > > of pairs of wires. Moving wires in the mdidle of an already-soldered=20 > > mini-DIN is a lot worse than SMD rework :-) > > Try repairing the upper right corner of an A3000 motherboard some time. > That's the bit with all the fine-pitch tracks running under the Podule > connector. > > This damage was caused by me mentioning to a friend "I need to take the > motherboard out and drill a hole in the case for the I2C DIN socket..." > He took a B&D drill, loaded a 10mm bit and drilled the case. With the > motherboard still installed. > "Oh, I thought you'd already removed the motherboard...?" ARGH! That's not pleasant... I asume the next workpiece that drill was used on was your (ex?-) friend ;-) > > I did it with a Metcal MFR-1110, the 0.4mm conical bit and some > wire-wrap wire. It wasn't fun, and it wasn't easy, but it's electrically > sound and the Podule socket actually works now... :) > > If it wasn't for the round profile of the tracks and the silver plating > (instead of green solder mask) it'd look fairly original. Now I just > need to find some instructions for replacing the Caps / Num / Scroll, > Power and Disk LEDs on the keyboard assembly. Is this the clipped-togheter membranee keyboard that Acorn used at one point? If o, I thin it comes apart from the bottom (unclip the metal backing plate, then take off the memberane layers). The LEds have their leadouts bent over the keyboard moulding and come into contact with pads on one of the membrane sheets. It's worth making sure it;s not contact trouble between the LED and the seeht before you replace them. > > button swithces on the front), but also with an Acorn mouse that had=20 > > had the 9 pin mini-DIN cut off and been rewired to a DE9 plug to fit th= > e=20 > > MG1. > > Meh. The MG1 is infinitely cooler than (almost) any Acorn. A working True :-) It's just a pity the origianl ownder didn't just replace the switch caps on the Depraz mouse. At least he kept said mouse and gave it to me with the machine. > Phoebe would be the only thing that could hope to come close (and as I > understand it, there's only one of those -- an escaped prototype). > > > I repired the original mouse (I had some suitable switches in the > > junk box, and the buttons just clop on) but of course I also kept the=20 > > Acorn one. But it's no use on an Acorn machine any more. > > Especially now 9P Mini-DINs are basically unobtainium. Do RS no longer do them? I';ve not looked for years... It's possibel I have 1 or 2 in the junk box, but it'd take me some time to dfidn them. And they'll be the massive solder-on type. > > >> Actually, I could probably route one through the back. There are some > >> pads on the board marked "ALTERNATE MOUSE" which appear to connect to > >> the mouse socket. I'd sooner hide a PIC micro and a PS/2 socket inside > >> though. Get rid of the external adapter entirely :) > >=20 > > Are those pads at a suitalbe spacing to fit some kind of plug to the PC= > B=20 > > (e.g. a Molex KK)? If so, fit it and make whatever plug-in adapter you=20 > > need... > > Indeed. Using Mk.1 Eyeball, they're 0.1in pitch. A KK would probably Watch out.. As you must know by now, there are 2.5mm pitch and 0.1" pitch connecotrs, and it matters on something with 9 or 10 pins... > fit, though I'd be more tempted to use a Harwin machined-pin header > (smaller pins, more likely to fit through the tiny holes). Right... > > The board's been wave soldered though, so the holes are full of solder... Yes, but you know how to clear those (heat from one side, suck from the other). > > > I agree. I hade mini-DINs, They are painful to wire, and don't make goo= > d=20 > > contact even when new. Are they really a DIN standard, or are they name= > d=20 > > miniDIN simply becuase they look like a smaller version of the well-kno= > wn=20 > > audio conenctor? > > Pass on that one. What are your thoughts on the full-size DIN connector? The connector isn;t too bad, athough I wish the isulator round the pins was made of a plastic with a higher melting point. Often at least one pin moves out of the right position when you solder them. But the standrd audio wirign has the same problems as RS232 only worse. The original 3 pin DIN was used to link a tape recorder to an amplifier (mono) using a straight-through cable. This menas that pin 1 is an output on the amplifier and an input on the recorder (signal to record), pin 3 is an output o nthe recordfer and an input on the amplifier (palyback signal) and pin 2 is ground, Ok so far... The problem comes when it's used fro things that aren't ampliifers or recorders. At least one respected manufacturer says a singal source should output on pin 3 if it's intended ot conenct to an amplidier, and ouput on pin 1 if it's intended to connect to a tape recorder. How the heck should I (as the designer of said signal sourve) know what it's likely to be conencted to. Of course if the pinout is wrong you can wire a corssover cable. Stereo doens't make matters any worse. There were 2 more pins added, pin 4 betwee npins 1 nad 2 and pin 5 between pins 3 and 2. The orignal pins 1 and 3 carry the left cahnnel signals, the new pins carry the right channel signal in the same direction as the adjacent pin. So no extra problems So it's like the null-modem problem with RS232, but worse i nthat all chassis connectors are sockets. So you can't tell by looking which way it's wored (withRS232 , a DTE shoudl be male, a DCE should be female fo course). > I thought those were fairly decent, if a little big. My A3000 uses a > 5pin 180-degree full-size DIN for the I2C connector. I have a Solidisk I think I'd have used a 240 degree one there. It's less likely to get mis-connected to an audio device. > Teletext adapter which plugs into that, though it's scarcely any use now > there's no Teletext to receive. Maybe one day I'll build a VBI > inserter/databridge to go with it... :-). > > Now the phono connector... don't get me started on that one. Whoever > decided that the signal pin should make contact before ground should > have been subjected to a very painful end... Jack plugs are worse Indeed... There are some phone plubs with a sliding sleeve on the outside so tha the froudn makes first, but they are not common... > though. Short-circuit on hot-connect, crosstalk, pops 'n' snaps > a-plenty, shoddy strain relief grips... Indeed. The _original_ use of the jack plug, on telephone switchboards, was quite sensible, in that it made use of the fact you could touch the tip of a plug to the sleeve (mouting bush) of a socket. An operator would do that wit hte plug of the interconneing cable to the socket of the lien to be connected to, and if there was a click in the operator's headset, it meant the line was in use (voltage on the sleeve connection). The oriignal wiring of the 4 pole Plug 420 was sensible too. It was used for the operator's headset (mouthpiece and headphones), the headphoens were connected between tip and sleeve (ring nearest to the body), so they were not conencted until the plug was fully home -- so no clicks as the plug contacts touched other contacts in the socket But dont;' get be started on the wiring of Plug 420 and Plug 505 for British telephones (this is sort-of on-topic becuse the latter was used for Viewdata sets). I have found 15 wiring schemes so far... A telephone is wired differnetly to am answering amchine which is wired differnetly to a fax machine. Heck a telephone for 1 phone-at-a-time plugged in is wired differnetly to a telephone wired for several-phones-plugged-in-at-ocne...ARGH. I have this little multi-way switchbox to sort it all out... But not for audio... My biggest moan ins that there is no compatibiltiy between mono and stereo. If you plug a 2 conecutor plug into a 3 conductor socket, you end up shortign the ring on the socket to the sleeve. This normally means groudn ign the right channel. Not good if it's the output of an amplifier. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 4 15:14:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 21:14:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT : Strange production method Message-ID: This has nothign to do with vintage computers, really. It related to a telepone, and not a particularly old one... But since some of you have knoweldge of production methods, I wonder if you have any thoughs on this. I have a basic 2-piece landline telephone here. Inside is a PCB with qutie a few discrete components (transsitors diodes, passives) and a single IC, which is clearly the dialer. Now the PCB has pads for an 18 pin DIL pacakge, but that's not waht's fitted. Instead there are 1 9-pin headers osldered to the main PCB. On tol fo those is an other little PCB connecting to the 'top 16' pins -- pins 8 and 9 of the origianl DIL position are not connected -- but then they go nowhere o nthe main PCB either. On this litle PCB which is fitted track-side up is a single epoxy-capped IC. I traced out the connections to the dialer keypad, ceramin resonator, poerr and ground in the hope I could identify the device. I then desoldered the header pins from the pin PCB and pulled the assembly out. On the underside (plain side) of this little IC-carrier is silk-screened 'SC91710A'. I ahve typed that into datsheetarchive. It exists as an IC. An 18 pin DIL IC that's a telephone dialer circuit. And all the pins I'd traced match up perfectly. Pins 8 and 9 are for a handsfree function that's not implemented here. So this telephone was clearly designed to use that dialer IC in the DIL package. My question is why was this subassembly made and fitted? I can understand that a driect-on-board IC is cheaper than fitting a DIL pacakge in many cases (for all I find such things objectionable!). But I can't beelive making up this daughterboard and fittign it with the header strips is cheaper than a DIL packaged IC -- is it? -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 4 15:33:52 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 13:33:52 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: , <4F2BC137.17510.719B11@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F2BCDA6.29699.A22B71@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F2DA440.6090201@bitsavers.org> On 2/3/12 12:49 PM, Richard wrote: >> Byte Dec. 1976 advertising the Intecolor 8001 terminal "Christmas >> Kit": >> The 4027 is an architectural decedent of the ISC displays. Graphics are built up from programmable character glyphs. It was tough to build a raster graphics display because of the cost of frame buffer memory at the price that made sense in the terminal market in the 70's. Companies like Hazeltine built color graphics systems that were used in the process control market in the late 60's and early 70's, but they were VERY expensive. ISC Intecolor displays were used a lot in that market because they were inexpensive, and graphics didn't require high resolution. The ISC display monitor was quite clever at the time, too, with their electronic convergence system. Advanced Electronic Design (AED) built one of the first inexpensive frame buffer terminals around 1980, mainly driven by inexpensive 4116 DRAM and high speed integrated circuit D/A converters. So, there are some qualifiers, like all 'firsts'. Full frame buffer, or programmable character sets, for example. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 4 16:30:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 17:30:44 -0500 Subject: OT : Strange production method In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2DB194.5070802@neurotica.com> On 02/04/2012 04:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > This has nothign to do with vintage computers, really. It related to a > telepone, and not a particularly old one... > > But since some of you have knoweldge of production methods, I wonder if > you have any thoughs on this. > > I have a basic 2-piece landline telephone here. Inside is a PCB with > qutie a few discrete components (transsitors diodes, passives) and a > single IC, which is clearly the dialer. Now the PCB has pads for an 18 > pin DIL pacakge, but that's not waht's fitted. > > Instead there are 1 9-pin headers osldered to the main PCB. On tol fo > those is an other little PCB connecting to the 'top 16' pins -- pins 8 > and 9 of the origianl DIL position are not connected -- but then they go > nowhere o nthe main PCB either. On this litle PCB which is fitted > track-side up is a single epoxy-capped IC. > > I traced out the connections to the dialer keypad, ceramin resonator, > poerr and ground in the hope I could identify the device. I then > desoldered the header pins from the pin PCB and pulled the assembly out. > > On the underside (plain side) of this little IC-carrier is silk-screened > 'SC91710A'. I ahve typed that into datsheetarchive. It exists as an IC. > An 18 pin DIL IC that's a telephone dialer circuit. And all the pins I'd > traced match up perfectly. Pins 8 and 9 are for a handsfree function > that's not implemented here. > > So this telephone was clearly designed to use that dialer IC in the DIL > package. > > My question is why was this subassembly made and fitted? I can understand > that a driect-on-board IC is cheaper than fitting a DIL pacakge in many > cases (for all I find such things objectionable!). But I can't beelive > making up this daughterboard and fittign it with the header strips is > cheaper than a DIL packaged IC -- is it? Perhaps they had a few hundred thousand bare boards already made sitting in a warehouse, and doing this was cheaper than trashing those boards and re-spinning them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Feb 4 17:10:10 2012 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:10:10 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2DBAD2.2010607@sbcglobal.net> On 2/3/2012 10:40 AM, Richard wrote: > I saw something on someone's web site the other day claiming that the > Tektronix 4027 was the first commercially available color raster > graphics terminal. The 4027 first appears in the 1979 Tektronix > catalog. > > I know there were vector based systems that were displaying color > before that, but the question here is about raster based systems (i.e. > pixel, not vector based). > > So the question becomes: was anyone else selling a raster color > graphics terminal before Tektronix in 1979? Data Disc made a large graphics system meant to connect to mainframes around 1972. They could connect multiple frame buffers together for gray scale or color. See: http://www.dvq.com/ads/acm/data_disc_acm_72.pdf Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 17:36:27 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:36:27 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <4F2C2675.18842.1FD16A9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 3, 12 06:24:53 pm, Message-ID: <4F2D507B.23026.1520478@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2012 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > I've not seen the board but I don;t think I can say from what you've > told us that there can't be any TTL on the board. -15V is present on both ICs. There's nothing else on the main board in the way of ICs. The capacitive touch panel and clock are on a separate PCB--I haven't taken that assembly apart yet. Pin 1 of the TMS1000 connects to pin 6 of the mystery IC. Otherwise there are no direct connects between the two. The -5V goes to 2 headers for connection to the display/touch panel. Although I haven't disassembled that assembly, I suspect that it's used for the LEDs and clock displays. Perhaps some TTL is on that board. But the -5 connects to no other component on the MCU board. Doesn't sound like TTL to me. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 4 17:33:30 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:33:30 -0800 Subject: ISC history Message-ID: <4F2DC04A.6060204@bitsavers.org> http://peripheralexchange.com/aboutus/aboutus2.htm Detailed History Of ISC / Intecolor In 1973, Mr. Charles A. Muench formed a new company called Intelligent Systems Corporation (ISC). The ISC "basement team" designed a new color terminal product and began light product manufacturing in a prominent northeastern Atlanta neighborhood in the Riverview subdivision in Duluth, Georgia. The initial goal was to design an "intelligent" and affordable "color" cathode ray tube (CRT) terminal. Until this time, most computer terminals were "dumb" (text only) and only monochrome (black and white, green, or amber). ISC's new design was a breakthrough in terminal design since it offered an 8-color display with character graphics capability. The product was based on Intel Corporation's newest microprocessor product releases. At this point in time, Intel Corporation itself was not not much more out of the garage as a company than ISC. Although the Intel 4004 and 8008 products looked promising, ISC ultimately focused on the 8080 8-bit microprocessor from Intel. The Intel 8080 microprocessor married with additional integrated circuit chips from Texas Instruments (TI) made it possible to create the product. TI manufactured a support set of IC's such as the TMS5501 (multi-function I/O), TMS8224 (Clock/Divider), TMS8828 (Bus Controller), and TMS1702/2708/2716 family of Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory(s) (EPROMs). Once this collimation of IC products became generally available, it was the birth of many products with intelligence well beyond a simple four function calculator design. As the demand expanded and licensing to other chip manufacturers began, Advanced Micro Devices (AMD), National Semiconductor (NS), and a few others began cloning the TI chip designs. ISC's first product design used the Intel 8080 processor operating at slightly under 2Mhz along with 8KB of dynamic RAM for use as screen display memory, and about 1-3KB of operating system ROM. The unique design of ISC's "custom" display generator coupled with the Intel and TI chipsets was all that was needed to bring a new product to market. The ISC display generator used the latest IC technology with customized fuse-link ni-chrome devices. Essentially, this display generator used "lattice logic" to create text, color, and graphics. The "Compucolor 1" was the first intelligent color terminal product based on the 8080 microcomputer architecture. This product evolved rapidly and later was re-branded the name "Intecolor". The product name was derived from the founder's notion for the contracted words "Intelligent" and "Color" to come up with "Inte" and "color", or simply "Intecolor". On a parallel path, a consumer home computer product known as the Compucolor II was created by the same design team, and operated as an independent company called Compucolor Corporation. The Compucolor II was positioned as one of the early full featured home computer products selling in the $1,395 to $1,795 range. This product was considered to be the standard in home computing products years before Apple or IBM PC-based products. However, the history depicted here is not concentrated on the Compucolor II, but on the Intecolor brand of products. Why Develop Such A Product? The primary purpose for developing such a product was to fill a rising need from within the petrochemical, paper, electrical, and process control industry. The Intecolor terminal was the first of it's type in a market which was otherwise based on monochrome terminals with either no graphics or limited graphics ability. The Original 8001 Series In 1977, ISC's manufacturing operations relocated to a small warehouse and office space located at 5965A Peachtree Corners East in Norcross, Georgia. The first commercially available terminal product was the 8001 Series. Based on an RCA 19-inch delta-gun cathode ray tube (CRT) design, thousands of these terminals were sold. As newer CRT designs became available, the 8001 used a pre-converged in-line (PIL) CRT designs from Hitachi, Mitsubishi, and Panasonic. This product series lasted for 20 years. F8001G Industrial Terminal. The 8050/8060 Series In 1978, additional options were designed to extend terminal operations into one of the first standalone microcomputers. Operating systems incorporated within the product had included the BASIC language (in EPROM) which was based on Microsoft BASIC (at the time). Options for floppy disk drives (made by Wangco, Shugart, or Seimens), light pens (ICC), printer drivers (Centronics, Daisywriter, Okidata, Qume, Printronix), programming languages (BASIC, 8080 ASM, FORTRAN IV), and developer tools were added to the product line. During this time, there were fewer than three companies manufacturing color microcomputer based products with a robust peripheral offering. The 8050 Series was a self-contained microcomputer system having a proprietary file control system known as FCS. It was a precursor to today's DOS based systems. The 8060 Series was also a self-contained microcomputer system but designed on the CP/M operating system licensed from Digital Research Corporation which was founded by Gary Alan Kildall. Both the 8050 and 8060 Series products filled a niche until about 1988, at which point newer PC competitive products became the new platform of choice. More Manufacturing Space Required By 1979, sales of Intecolor terminal and microcomputer products had increased dramatically. With an immediate need for more manufacturing floor space, the sales and manufacturing portion of the company relocated to 225 Technology Park/Atlanta in Norcross, Georgia. The engineering, inventory, and board level manufacturing portions of the company remained in Peachtree Corners East until late 1987. As a side note: Technology Park/Atlanta was "the" place to have facilities since the office park was comprised of the "who's who" of high tech companies of that time. It was often termed as "Silicon Hill" (Georgia), patterned after Silicon Gulch (Texas), and Silicon Valley (California). Initial Public Offering (IPO) ... Going Public! By late 1980, Intelligent Systems Corporation prepared an initial public offering (IPO), and successfully went public on the NASDAQ market creating the necessary capital to expand sales and manufacturing. At this point in time, practically all industrial control integrators, were purchasing ISC terminals for their control systems. In the early 1980's, ISC created a Master Limited Partnership (MLP) for favorable corporate income tax purposes and acquired additional hardware and software products from other companies. The overall company effectively became known as "Intecolor an Intelligent Systems Company". The product name Intecolor became the new corporate name for this operating division of ISC. Other companies owned were Quadram Corporation, Princeton Graphics Systems, Peachtree Software, Datavue Corporation, and a few other less notable start-up companies. By 1981, the world was looking forward to the debut of IBM's "PC" architecture. At this point , the proprietary design of the 8001 terminal seemed to be in jeopardy, but PC or not, it remained in production until 1993. Cloning the Data And Graphics Terminal Markets In the 1982-1985 timeframe, Intecolor began manufacturing color terminal products to address the data management and scientific graphics markets hugely dominated by Digital Equipment Corporation (DEC) and Tektronix Corporation. Most notable were the Intecolor "ColorTrend" and Advanced Graphics Systems (AGS) terminal series. ColorTrend Series Models designed to compete for the DEC data terminal segment. The ColorTrend series targeted the DEC customer base since it was VT52/100/220 compatible. The AGS Series targeted the Tektronix customer base since it was 4010/4014/4105A compatible. The ColorTrend Series was moderately successful in the markets served by Northern Telecom and Baxter Health Care. Other customers also used the product since DEC had yet to release a color terminal product till the late 1980's. The same cannot be said for the AGS Series, since this market had many other competitive products from other vendors. It could be best described as low volume to a "write-off". Another later design based on "X" technology was designed, but failed due to competitive pressure from other vendors. By this time, Intecolor could not "pull another rabbit out of the hat" in custom terminal design. Time To Sell Off The Assets By 1986, Intelligent Systems Corporation MLP, realized that there was more profit to be made by selling individual business units since the stock price had peaked. Essentially, the marketable inventory, trademark, and patent rights, were sold to create profits. Individually, and in fairly rapid order, Quadram Corporation was sold to National Semiconductor. Princeton Graphics Systems was sold to Worldwide Technologies. Datavue Corporation was sold to a private entity. Peachtree Software was sold back to it's management/employee group (which is now owned by Sage Software). Intecolor Corporation was purchased by it's management/employee group with the help from it's founder. Intecolor, again reverted back to a privately held company owned by it's management team, employees (as 401K holders), and outside venture capitalists. New Manufacturing Location Needed Intecolor was paying for prime corporate office space along with remote warehouse spaces, which led to daily transportation of manufacturing goods from one location to another. Although, assembly operations at the Peachtree Corners East location were only a few miles away from the Technology Park/Atlanta corporate office, it became clear that the daily company truck routine was outgrowing itself. A centralized space was needed badly, and at an overall lower cost per square foot. By 1988, Intecolor decided to relocate to a new facility in the Gwinnett Forest complex at 2150 Boggs Road, Building 100, in Duluth, Georgia. This new 60,000 square foot facility allowed all operations under one roof. This new location was about 8 miles north of Norcross, Georgia and became the all-in-one facility for manufacturing, engineering, marketing, and sales. Since the distance from the original offices to the new location were under 8 miles away, most employees were retained. For once, all aspects of the company resided in a central place making it much easier to conduct daily business. MegaTrend Monitors Monitor products addressing generic PC markets and custom monitors for OEM applications continued to evolve rapidly in the mid 1980's. Market conditions showed that large format color monitors were needed for the PC marketplace. The MegaTrend product line began it's humble beginnings as one of the first 19-inch CGA/EGA monitors available in the PC marketplace. So the "Mega" meaning big, and "Trend" meaning the trend towards larger displays, led to the product line name. As PC video standards evolved, many versions of the product line were manufactured to address standard video interfaces as well as custom "proprietary" interfaces. The MegaTrend was produced from 1985 till 1991. By this time, many OEM companies had settled on their own specific graphics generator and many other monitor manufacturers entered the marketplace. As time passed, many monitor designs were designed but not related to the MegaTrend Series. Future monitor designs took on a product nomenclature such as E01954-20x, or E20Hxxxxx. See Archived Monitors. New Terminal Product Offerings The original 8001 terminal series was showing it's age which led to the development and manufacture of the 8800 and 3800 series product lines. The 8001 product line utilized three independent logic boards to achieve a working product. Given advances in technology, the 8800 and 3800 series product lines were designed to have one logic board rather than three. Another major factor was an emphasis on customized enclosures and harsh environment designs. This added additional life to the specialized terminal market. The 8800 Series proved to be successful as the upgrade path from the 8001 series as well as the smaller 3800 series. Both the 3800 and 8800 series terminal product lines flourished until late 1993. What Happened To Intelligent Systems Corporation (ISC) MLP? After the sell-off of most of it's divisions, Intelligent Systems MLP evolved into a high-tech incubator company helping high technology start-up companies develop products or services. ISC still exists today but has no corporate or financial relationship to Intecolor. Visit www.intelsys.com to learn more about the modern day workings of ISC. 8001 Intecolor Terminal Emulation Software In 1991, Intecolor began offering a terminal emulation software product bundled with an industrial PC workstation product to address the terminal replacement market. However, the combined cost of emulation software and the PC workstation product was significantly more in cost than the terminal product. At this point in time, terminals were still being manufactured, and the emulation software could not generate the equivalent gross revenue, so the emulation solution remained in the background. Leaping forward to 2001 till today, the Intecolor terminal emulation software (ITE8001) is marketed as a software only product and also bundled with a variety of low cost, highly reliable industrialized PC based computers. Terminals Destined For Obsolesce By 1992, Intecolor partnered with several OEM companies to build custom color monitor products and rack mount computer products. A PC-based "workstation" product line referred to the "WS" series was created as a combination of an Intecolor monitor with PC compatible hardware. At the same time, custom color monitor products were being made for Allen-Bradley, Honeywell, Westinghouse, and Bailey Controls (now ABB). The classic product lines including the 8001, 8800, 3800, ColorTrend, AGS, and numerous other terminal models were rapidly discontinued due to accelerating product obsolescence. By mid 1993, these product lines were no longer in production. Custom engineering of PC based computers and further broadening of color monitor designs became Intecolor's new product line direction. Peripheral Exchange Provides Intecolor Product Services In July 1993, the classic Intecolor product line had come to an end. The major thrust had become primarily based on color monitor technology (CRT based), along with industrialized PC-based products, and the beginnings of TFT LCD flat panel display product offerings. Intecolor was positioning itself to manufacture newer product designs to stay ahead of a growing number of competitors. As a result, support for the classic product lines was left behind and became non-existent at best. Peripheral Exchange, (PE) was formed at this time as a service company to continue the service and support of Intecolor classic products for OEM's and the end-user customer base. Rockwell Automation Buys Intecolor For Cash In May 1996, Rockwell Automation completed a total cash buyout of Intecolor Corporation for an undisclosed amount, but was rumored to be about $27 million dollars. Upon this acquisition, Intecolor became a wholly-owned subsidiary of Rockwell Automation and took on the name "Intecolor/Rockwell Automation". Rockwell Automation needed a small company like Intecolor, to fulfill their need for color CRT monitors, TFT LCD flat panel displays, and industrialized PC products for their Allen-Bradley division. As part of the purchasing arrangement, the top Intecolor management agreed to stay intact for a specified term (around 4 years) to keep the new acquisition running smoothly. Meanwhile, Rockwell management bolstered it's management team presence within the Intecolor offices in Duluth, Georgia. By 2001 (or slightly earlier), the entire original Intecolor management team had been retired or replaced. Changes in Business Activity By 1998, Intecolor/Rockwell Automation had discontinued repair and support services on the classic terminal product lines. Repair and support services continued on color monitor products, PC based workstations, and flat-panel monitors. By Fall 2000, Intecolor/Rockwell Automation had ceased production of CRT-based monitors altogether. A stockpile of CRT monitors were built and warehoused as the last production run took place. All efforts were placed on industrialized color TFT LCD flat panel display systems. The ever decreasing cost of flat panel technology and market research showed that flat panel products were the new display technology of choice. The sales of CRT-based products were on a steep decline. Say Goodbye to Intecolor as a Name Brand By 2001, Rockwell Automation decided to dismantle and cease the use of the Intecolor brand product and product name. Effectively the name Intecolor would disappear from the marketplace. The Intecolor flat panel products would continue to be manufactured and sold under the Allen-Bradley name and marketed through AB distribution channels. On September 25, 2001, the Intecolor corporate web site described Rockwell's management decision to close facilities in Duluth, Georgia, and encouraged customers to contact Allen-Bradley's new support facilities. Over 200 Intecolor employees, (many having 15 to 25 years experience), lost their jobs as part of the shut down process. For all practical purposes, the support of the original Intecolor product ceased to exist as did the wealth of technical knowledge. Although, the AB site offers support for "all" Intecolor products, it is strongly advised to contact Peripheral Exchange for product support. The Intecolor/Rockwell Automation operations in Duluth, Georgia closed it's operations in October 2001. A needle roller bearing manufacturer now occupies this location. Who Services Intecolor Terminal Products Today? Peripheral Exchange (PE) acquired the inventory of several Intecolor service centers throughout the 1990's. In addition, a significant amount of Intecolor/Rockwell Automation's inventory was purchased prior to the Duluth Georgia factory closing in 2001. By specializing primarily on Intecolor brand repairs and refurbishments, many other multi-line service providers use our company on a subcontractor basis. We are dedicated to provide service and support of Intecolor products as a service arm to former OEM's and the end-user customer base. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 4 17:41:22 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:41:22 -0800 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: <4F2DA440.6090201@bitsavers.org> References: , , <4F2DA440.6090201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F2D51A2.1260.15682DC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2012 at 13:33, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/3/12 12:49 PM, Richard wrote: > > >> Byte Dec. 1976 advertising the Intecolor 8001 terminal "Christmas > >> Kit": > So, there are some qualifiers, like all 'firsts'. Full frame buffer, > or programmable character sets, for example. That's the crux of the game, isn't it? Add a sufficient number of qualifiers and a clone PC can be "first". But ISC saya in plain English in the ad. "Color graphics terminal"-- and it's definitely raster-scan. I suspect for "Color Graphics Display", meaning attached directly to a mainframe, that likely candidates are military and aeronautical kit. Think of Link, Grumman, etc... --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Feb 4 18:04:54 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 00:04:54 +0000 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2DC7A6.8020106@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/02/2012 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> The board itself is supplied with -5 and -15 volts, so nothing on the >> board is TTL. > > Egh> You ave a 5V supply between ground (+ve) and the -5V rail (-ve). > That could bn sued to run TTL. > > I've not seen the board but I don;t think I can say from what you've told > us that there can't be any TTL on the board. Absolutely. A colleague once told me about equipment he worked on in telephone exchanges. He wondered what the -43V supply was for, until he realised it was the power rail for the TTL. The -48V was the "ground" for it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 4 18:58:50 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 17:58:50 -0700 Subject: First commercially available color RASTER graphics terminal? In-Reply-To: <4F2D51A2.1260.15682DC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4F2DA440.6090201@bitsavers.org> <4F2D51A2.1260.15682DC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F2D51A2.1260.15682DC at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > I suspect for "Color Graphics Display", meaning attached directly to > a mainframe, that likely candidates are military and aeronautical > kit. Think of Link, Grumman, etc... In that arena, the first commercial frame buffer is generally acknowledged to be the Evans & Sutherland frame buffer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 4 19:01:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:01:42 -0700 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > On Fri, 3 Feb 2012, Richard wrote: > > > In article , > > David Riley writes: > > > >> Where does the $100K figure come from? I think the pocketfactory guys > >> are us ing a RepRap variant, which usually weigh in at less than $700 > >> for all the part s. > > > > They have a makerbot and an Up! 3D printer > > > >> I don't think the quality would be *as* nice as the original, but > >> unlike the DEC switches, they'd be available. > > > > Yeah, they won't be molded, but they can be printed on demand and > > would be cheap. > > I think for acceptable switch cover replacements, you'd have to use one of > those 3D printers that uses a polymer powder upon which layers of hardener > are sprayed inkjet style. You get reasonably smooth edges that way. If you are requiring that the printed product be "perfect" right out of the printer, sure. On the other hand, for like 25 cents you can buy a piece of sandpaper and give it a nice smooth finish. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Feb 4 19:12:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:12:46 -0700 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: <4F2DC04A.6060204@bitsavers.org> References: <4F2DC04A.6060204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4F2DC04A.6060204 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > http://peripheralexchange.com/aboutus/aboutus2.htm > > Detailed History Of ISC / Intecolor Thanks, Al, that was very informative! I had heard of the CompuColor II as I drooled over the ads personally in BYTE magazine (but could never afford one). If so many InteColor terminals were sold, where did they all end up? Occasionally I see a CompuColor II on ebay and it sells for $PRICEY. Does the CHM have any of these terminals? I see you just added some ISC docs to bitsavers, thanks :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 4 17:42:29 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:42:29 -0800 Subject: early raster display systems Message-ID: <4F2DC265.1020003@bitsavers.org> Bob said: Data Disc made a large graphics system meant to connect to mainframes around 1972. -- Data Disc goes back well into the 60's with video disk display systems. Hazeltine is even earlier. Disks and drums were used as frame stores along with recirculating magnetorestrictive delay lines in the days before semiconductor shift register memories. RAM replaced the shift registers in the 70's. But this all is getting well off the subject of raster display terminals. There were lots and lots of people making expensive frame stores (Ramtek, Genesco, etc.) Not so many were making things small/cheap enough to be used as terminals. Ramtek and others (trying to remember when Chromerics started) eventually got into that business. PCs and Workstations wiped out the graphics terminal market by the early 80's. Was interesting to find out ISC goes back to 1973. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Feb 4 19:22:47 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 20:22:47 -0500 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> On 03/02/12 3:35 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > ... > We currently need 3 more boards ito sell to reach a price of 27 Euros/Board. > > Remember: I must not sell. We want to give you a chance to get some boards > to und make our own a little bit cheaper. If I get a board additionaly to > the two that I wanted, there are still 2 left. It's not a big deal to sell > 2 boards over ebay here if we have them left over. > > I you don't trust me, let it be. Of course I trust you -- that's not the issue :) > We have currently orders for 25 pcs, so the current price is > 27 Euros. More than 27 pcs 24 Euros, next is 36 pcs. 21 Euros. > US Dollar to Euro is currently 1,316:1 (yahoo currency converter) Please put me down for 3 boards. If it gets to EUR 21, I'll take four... --Toby > > Regards, > > Holm > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Feb 4 20:00:55 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:00:55 -0800 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: <4F2DC04A.6060204@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F2DE2D7.90404@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > If so many InteColor terminals were sold, where did they all end up? > In the landfill, just like everything else that was made in the 1970s. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Feb 4 20:18:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 4 Feb 2012 21:18:22 -0500 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6CF91A50-7B09-4490-A05B-47A1EDF00325@gmail.com> On Feb 4, 2012, at 2:50 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> You can get the smooth surface finish by doing a little hand sanding. >> You could also paint the surface to get a good color match to your >> existing switches as well. > > I think painint htem is a bad idea, in that the paint will wear off > (think of how much use front panel toggles get). Is it possible to get > the raw plastic for such pritners in different colours? It is, though most of the colors in which they are available are quite garish. See: http://ultimachine.com/catalog/print-materials/pla/pla-3mm for a representative sample. > Also, how strong are 3D pritned parts comapred to injection-moulded > ones?The original ones do break so if the replacements are significantly > weaker, they're not goign to last. They're not as strong. But there's also no tooling costs, and once you've printed up one, you can print up a million for the cost of the plastic (probably less than $1 each for a hollow switch that size). - Dave From jws at jwsss.com Sun Feb 5 03:59:56 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 01:59:56 -0800 Subject: IC Pulls Message-ID: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> I have a come into an opportunity which people here might help with. The opportunity is a 75 to 100# box of Eproms. So far w/o any major skimming yielded 2732's 2764's 27128's 27512's and the 1mb 27 series (don't recall the # right now)> I also found a couple of parts that traced back to an HP inhouse 27128 part from AMD. These were recently pulled from a warehouse full of printer material, and are were just packed loose in a 12" x 12" x 12" box for gold scrap. Since there was not manpower or time to sort, this what I got. There are other boxes of NOS which I will deal with later. Any ideas on what to do, what the chances are that they will work? I don't have the means or time to do testing, though recent discussion suggest there might be some cheap eprom programmer which might do that. I have never blown up a prom from normal handling, w/o antistat but with the shear number of parts here, the odds are that some are blown. I am handling these now with antistat, but the prior situation is what it is. Should I sort them by part, list them with a "if it doesn't work I'll send you another", sell them as untested pull lots (I will sort and tube them by type a and PN as my contribution to this project), or some other way? I'm guessing 10000 or more parts, don't know for now. also there could be other parts at lower layers, for now w/o pulling them and risk physical or electrical damage all I see are eproms and some junk pals which will go back into the stew for gold recycle. thanks Jim From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Feb 5 07:18:22 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 14:18:22 +0100 Subject: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Toby Thain wrote: > On 03/02/12 3:35 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >... > >We currently need 3 more boards ito sell to reach a price of 27 > >Euros/Board. > > > >Remember: I must not sell. We want to give you a chance to get some boards > >to und make our own a little bit cheaper. If I get a board additionaly to > >the two that I wanted, there are still 2 left. It's not a big deal to sell > >2 boards over ebay here if we have them left over. > > > >I you don't trust me, let it be. > > Of course I trust you -- that's not the issue :) > > >We have currently orders for 25 pcs, so the current price is > >27 Euros. More than 27 pcs 24 Euros, next is 36 pcs. 21 Euros. > >US Dollar to Euro is currently 1,316:1 (yahoo currency converter) > > > Please put me down for 3 boards. > > If it gets to EUR 21, I'll take four... > > --Toby > > > > > >Regards, > > > >Holm > > Ok, added your boards up... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 12:51:08 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 13:51:08 -0500 Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> References: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <2521395D-BDFB-4C84-A69C-CFF5F2BD7D0A@gmail.com> On Feb 5, 2012, at 4:59 AM, jim s wrote: > I have a come into an opportunity which people here might help with. The opportunity is a 75 to 100# box of Eproms. So far w/o any major skimming yielded 2732's 2764's 27128's 27512's and the 1mb 27 series (don't recall the # right now)> I could certainly use a few of those. > Any ideas on what to do, what the chances are that they will work? I don't have the means or time to do testing, though recent discussion suggest there might be some cheap eprom programmer which might do that. I have never blown up a prom from normal handling, w/o antistat but with the shear number of parts here, the odds are that some are blown. I am handling these now with antistat, but the prior situation is what it is. I dunno, the 27xx parts (especially the non-C parts) are pretty tough. I've never killed one, and I've put them through a lot of abuse (including plugging the power supply in backwards on a ROM board; I could actually see the die glowing underneath the sticker). > Should I sort them by part, list them with a "if it doesn't work I'll send you another", sell them as untested pull lots (I will sort and tube them by type a and PN as my contribution to this project), or some other way? I'd buy a tube or two as an untested tube lot, if the price is right. Mixed or otherwise. I've got uses for all the sizes you mentioned. A cheap EPROM programmer should do the trick for testing them, but it would take ages (if memory serves, the UV erase time for those is at least a few minutes). Otherwise, just programming in a testable pattern (say, a PRBS) should be sufficient to see if anything's obviously blown, though individual bit errors would probably be something you'd want to leave up to the buyer. > I'm guessing 10000 or more parts, don't know for now. also there could be other parts at lower layers, for now w/o pulling them and risk physical or electrical damage all I see are eproms and some junk pals which will go back into the stew for gold recycle. Yeah, the PALs are OTP, so no use there. I'm interested in hearing what else you find; feel free to ping me off list (I suspect there will be many more here along the same lines). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 12:57:29 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 10:57:29 -0800 Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> References: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F2E6099.16428.66F368@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2012 at 1:59, jim s wrote: > Any ideas on what to do, what the chances are that they will work? The chances are good that they'll work--EPROMs are pretty rugged. Sorting them out is an interesting problem. Obviously, the ones with missing leads, or cracked packages/windows are junk--so the first thing would be a cosmetic sort--and you can sort by type in the same pass. So now you have several piles--junk, and then by type. Next would be to sort the types out--try reading one. Since they're used, if they come up with some data, you can put those in the "probably good" pile for each type. If they come up FFs, they might be erased or simply bad. If they come up 00 or all the same pattern, but not FF, those are probably bad. Finally, erase the lot (unless you want to save contents), erase and attempt a program and verify. Those that pass would be the "good" ones. Alternatively, you have to balance what your time is worth against what you expect to make. You might just bag bunches up in anti- static bags and do the old Poly-Paks thing--some mignt be good, some not; it's up to the buyer to determine which. Before you do that, I think it would be a fine idea to pull a couple of sample bags and see what the yield is. The sure-fire way to kill most EPROMs is to install them upside-down and let electricity take its course. But as I said, UVEPROMs are pretty rugged things. --Chuck From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Feb 5 10:57:52 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 11:57:52 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> I have looked high and low it seems for documents that detail the pinout of J1 on a KDJ11-B cpu module. The manual I have shows that J1 is the SLU connection and J2 is for baud rate and status LED's. I have SLU's for MicroVAX II's and 3800's. Both of these have the right pin counts but by no means indicates the pinout is compatible. Pinout diagrams would prevent me from letting out the magic smoke on my only 11/83 CPU module. Please could someone help. Thanks, Dan Snyder Butler, PA USA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:17:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:17:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: <6CF91A50-7B09-4490-A05B-47A1EDF00325@gmail.com> from "David Riley" at Feb 4, 12 09:18:22 pm Message-ID: > > > > I think painting them is a bad idea, in that the paint will wear off > > (think of how much use front panel toggles get). Is it possible to get > > the raw plastic for such pritners in different colours? > > It is, though most of the colors in which they are available are quite > garish. See: http://ultimachine.com/catalog/print-materials/pla/pla-3mm > for a representative sample. So nothing suitable for DEC handles, I guess. > > > Also, how strong are 3D pritned parts comapred to injection-moulded > > ones?The original ones do break so if the replacements are significantly > > weaker, they're not going to last. > > They're not as strong. But there's also no tooling costs, and once > you've printed up one, you can print up a million for the cost of the > plastic (probably less than $1 each for a hollow switch that size). Sure, I understand what 3D printing is. But actually, if you are going to make a million of them, it'd probably be worth making the mould and having them injection-moulded (yes, I know tooling costs are very expensive for such things but for a million...). I doubt there's a market for anything liek that number. And yes, 3D printing woudl allow you to make repalcement handles for DEC frontpanels, but if they break after a few operations (of a few hundred operations), is there any real point? They might be OK for a static dispaly, but I for one use my frontpanels. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:01:34 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:01:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT : Strange production method In-Reply-To: <4F2DB194.5070802@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 4, 12 05:30:44 pm Message-ID: Yes, but why not just fit the DIL-packaged version of the IC, which was clearly available at the time. I guess it's possible that stocks of the DIL packaged version were in short supply bu the bare die was easily avaialbe. Still seems like an odd way to do it. I made a factual error in my original message. Having re-read the data sheet, it appears the -A version is a 16 pin package (as is the similarly-labelled carrier board in this telephone), the -B is an 18 pin package. The latter has a latch for a handsfree button, using the 2 extra pins, the former doesn't. The PCN in the telephone could use either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:05:23 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:05:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2D507B.23026.1520478@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 4, 12 03:36:27 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Feb 2012 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I've not seen the board but I don;t think I can say from what you've > > told us that there can't be any TTL on the board. > > -15V is present on both ICs. There's nothing else on the main board > in the way of ICs. The capacitive touch panel and clock are on a > separate PCB--I haven't taken that assembly apart yet. Pin 1 of the > TMS1000 connects to pin 6 of the mystery IC. Otherwise there are no > direct connects between the two. You are now giving me additional facts, from which I agree that the unknown IC is not a TTL device. But your original somment that the board used -5V and -15V power lines does not IMHO preclude the use of TTL on it. > > The -5V goes to 2 headers for connection to the display/touch panel. > Although I haven't disassembled that assembly, I suspect that it's > used for the LEDs and clock displays. Perhaps some TTL is on that > board. But the -5 connects to no other component on the MCU board. > > Doesn't sound like TTL to me. Agreed. Doesn't sound like any common display driver chip either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:11:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:11:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2DC7A6.8020106@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 5, 12 00:04:54 am Message-ID: > Absolutely. A colleague once told me about equipment he worked on in > telephone exchanges. He wondered what the -43V supply was for, until he > realised it was the power rail for the TTL. The -48V was the "ground" > for it. Seems entirely reasoanble :-). I beelive one of Vonada's laws is 'There is no such thing as ground'. That statement has 2 meanings : 1) Voltmeters have 2 leads, it is potential differences that matter. A circuit that needs 12V can run between a +6V and -6V rail (referenced to something you happen to call ground) 2) All connections have some impedance (particularly inductance) so 2 connections you think you've connected to the point you choose to call ground might well have a significant voltage between them. It's the first meaning that applies here, of course. To get mildly on-topic, I believe there's a TTL IC on one of the boards in an RK05 that is powered between a +10V line (generated o nthat board) and the main +15V line. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 5 13:47:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:47:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <4F2E6099.16428.66F368@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 12 10:57:29 am Message-ID: > Next would be to sort the types out--try reading one. Since they're > used, if they come up with some data, you can put those in the > "probably good" pile for each type. If they come up FFs, they might > be erased or simply bad. If they come up 00 or all the same pattern, > but not FF, those are probably bad. A 'santiy test' I use when I'm dumping the contents of a ROM or PROM for backup or simialr purposes goes like this : 1) Make usre every (used) data line is high sometimes nad low someimes. Finding bout 00 and FF in the dump is a good start. Acutally, I try to make sure that one data line is not exactly the same as another in all cases. 2) Make usre all (used) address lines do something .Make sure there's an even address such that the immediately-following odd address has differnet contents (meaning A0 is significant), THen make usre there's an address with A1 low such that the same address but with A1 high has different contents, and so on/ Finally make sure the high and low halves of the IC are differnet ;-). The problem with these tests for unknown ICs is that there;s no way of knowing which address and data lines were used in the original application. For example, if the EPROM was a character generator for a 7-wire printhead, it would be reasoanble for one of the data liens ot be either 0 or 1 all the time, it wouldn't have been used in the original application. Of if an EPROM was used as a replaemetn for a smaller drvice (say a 27128 used in place of a 2764), it would not be uncommon to program the same data into the high and low halves of the IC. But if the IC contains data (not all FFs) and passes those tests, it's likely to be good. Most failures I've foudn relate to the circuitry conencted to the pisn, so that, for example, an address input appears to the stuch high or low. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 5 14:06:25 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 20:06:25 +0000 Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2EE141.8010709@philpem.me.uk> On 04/02/12 20:15, Tony Duell wrote: >> This damage was caused by me mentioning to a friend "I need to take the >> motherboard out and drill a hole in the case for the I2C DIN socket..." >> He took a B&D drill, loaded a 10mm bit and drilled the case. With the >> motherboard still installed. >> "Oh, I thought you'd already removed the motherboard...?" > > ARGH! That's not pleasant... > > I asume the next workpiece that drill was used on was your (ex?-) friend ;-) No. But I did hurl a series of rather colourful adjectives at him... > Is this the clipped-togheter membranee keyboard that Acorn used at one > point? I think so. It has the feel of a mid-90s PC keyboard... Connection is via two plastic ribbon cables with black (carbon?) tracks and contact pads. > If o, I thin it comes apart from the bottom (unclip the metal > backing plate, then take off the memberane layers). The LEds have their > leadouts bent over the keyboard moulding and come into contact with pads > on one of the membrane sheets. I assume it can be reassembled without damage? Most membrane keyboards I've looked at can be disassembled, but are either difficult or impossible to reassemble. > It's worth making sure it;s not contact trouble between the LED and the > seeht before you replace them. That's a good point... I might attack the LEDs with some contact cleaner first, then. >> Indeed. Using Mk.1 Eyeball, they're 0.1in pitch. A KK would probably > > Watch out.. As you must know by now, there are 2.5mm pitch and 0.1" pitch > connecotrs, and it matters on something with 9 or 10 pins... One of the many alternative uses for a roll of 'rainbow' IDC cable :) >> Pass on that one. What are your thoughts on the full-size DIN connector? > > The connector isn;t too bad, athough I wish the isulator round the pins > was made of a plastic with a higher melting point. Often at least one pin > moves out of the right position when you solder them. Ugh, too right on that point. I usually buy a socket and a plug, mate the two connectors, put the whole thing in the Panavise then use a set of 'helping hands' to hold the wires while I solder them. A little over-the-top, but it keeps the pins nicely in line. >> I thought those were fairly decent, if a little big. My A3000 uses a >> 5pin 180-degree full-size DIN for the I2C connector. I have a Solidisk > > I think I'd have used a 240 degree one there. It's less likely to get > mis-connected to an audio device. I think the "IIC-BUS" label is enough to stop me. Plus I don't have any audio gear which uses those plugs, and the A3000 is the only machine with that particular mod. The RISC PC used to have it (slightly better done, using a spare Podule backplate, a DIN41612 plug and a Eurocard protoboard) but I removed it when I put the second slice in and haven't seen the board since. >> Teletext adapter which plugs into that, though it's scarcely any use now >> there's no Teletext to receive. Maybe one day I'll build a VBI >> inserter/databridge to go with it... > > :-). ... And then I'll make it display Twitter feeds on Teletext! Fun for the whole family. Oh, and of course the Clock Cracker and other Ceefax test cards, assuming I can find page-source for them. I think the Viewdata Preservation site has those. > Indeed... There are some phone plubs with a sliding sleeve on the outside > so tha the froudn makes first, but they are not common... I was wondering if anyone had done that... Nice idea, but expensive and I'll bet prone to failure (springs don't last forever). Probably rather pointless too -- most of the time, phono plugs go in when the stereo is set up, and are left until a house-move or whatever. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 5 14:09:12 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 12:09:12 -0800 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2EE1E8.2030403@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And yes, 3D printing woudl allow you to make repalcement handles for > DEC frontpanels, but if they break after a few operations (of a few > hundred operations), is there any real point? They might be OK for a > static dispaly, but I for one use my frontpanels. -tony There are many different 3D printing processes using many different materials. One of the more common is fused deposition modelling with ABS plastic. This can be done with both commercial 3D printers and hobby-grade 3D printers. The resulting pieces are not quite as robust as molded ABS, but are still quite good. For a switch handle, I'd expect them to last nearly as long as the original molded ones. Certainly they aren't going to break after a few hundred operations. > > It is, though most of the colors in which they are available are quite > > garish. See:http://ultimachine.com/catalog/print-materials/pla/pla-3mm > > for a representative sample. > So nothing suitable for DEC handles, I guess. While the color choices available from stock for the hobby-grade printers are fairly limited, plastics suppliers can produce custom ABS filament in whatever color you need. Usually the minimum order for a custom color is on the order of 5 kg, which is about 4800 cubic centimeters, which I'd expect to be at least enough for 500 switch handles. The cost for 5 kg is likely to be between $300 and $500. This makes the materials cost per switch handle $1 or less. People keep talking about sanding the printed object, but for ABS better results are obtained by polishing with a very small amount of acetone. Eric From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Feb 5 14:09:24 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:09:24 -0500 Subject: ISC history References: Message-ID: ------ Original Message: Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:00:55 -0800 From: Eric Smith Richard wrote: >> If so many InteColor terminals were sold, where did they all end up? > In the landfill, just like everything else that was made in the 1970s. Even in the 80s ;-) We scrapped several hundred of several later models that had been sitting on bond traders' desks; might still have some manuals somewhere if anyone's interested. m From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 5 14:15:30 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 12:15:30 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E7A0FB1-4886-4CF1-89E8-68F0F7679260@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 5, at 11:05 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 4 Feb 2012 at 20:17, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> I've not seen the board but I don;t think I can say from what you've >>> told us that there can't be any TTL on the board. >> >> -15V is present on both ICs. There's nothing else on the main board >> in the way of ICs. The capacitive touch panel and clock are on a >> separate PCB--I haven't taken that assembly apart yet. Pin 1 of the >> TMS1000 connects to pin 6 of the mystery IC. Otherwise there are no >> direct connects between the two. > > You are now giving me additional facts, from which I agree that the > unknown IC is not a TTL device. But your original somment that the > board > used -5V and -15V power lines does not IMHO preclude the use of TTL > on it. It's not new information. In the message you replied to earlier Chuck had specified the IC in question had GND and ?15V on it. You chopped that part in your reply. He had also stated at the beginning of the thread there were only two ICs on the board and the other one appeared to be a TMS1000 with -15V. >> The -5V goes to 2 headers for connection to the display/touch panel. >> Although I haven't disassembled that assembly, I suspect that it's >> used for the LEDs and clock displays. Perhaps some TTL is on that >> board. But the -5 connects to no other component on the MCU board. >> >> Doesn't sound like TTL to me. > > Agreed. Doesn't sound like any common display driver chip either. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 5 14:23:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 15:23:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I beelive one of Vonada's laws is 'There is no such thing as > ground'. Well...in a sense. It's a reasonable approximation when dealnig with low voltages, such as generally occur in computers. But there _is_ a measurable-in-isolation ground potential in the sense of "not charged"; if you're working with electrostatics, which usually means (from computer points of view) very high voltages and very low currents, this can matter in a practical sense. > To get mildly on-topic, I believe there's a TTL IC on one of the > boards in an RK05 that is powered between a +10V line (generated o > nthat board) and the main +15V line. Here's another case where "there is no such thing as ground" can fail: what you outline works only if there are other loads on the on-board +10V line that collectively draw more current than the TTL in question does. (Loading internal to the circuit generating it counts.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 14:26:02 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 13:26:02 -0700 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: <4F2EE1E8.2030403@brouhaha.com> References: <4F2EE1E8.2030403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4F2EE1E8.2030403 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > People keep talking about sanding the printed object, but for ABS better > results are obtained by polishing with a very small amount of acetone. Good idea. The point is not whether you sand or treat with acetone, the point is that just because it doesn't come out of the printer "perfect" doesn't mean that's the end of the story of making a replica toggle switch. I love how I simply suggested that you contact pocket factory if you want to try out this process and everyone who's never used one of these printers comes out of the woodwork and starts whining about how it will never work. I guess they'd rather bitch about how there's no supply of toggle switches and they'll never get replacement switches for their PDP-11/PDP-8 front panels. WAAAAAAAAAAAAH! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 14:39:04 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 12:39:04 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 In-Reply-To: <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > I have looked high and low it seems for documents that detail > the pinout of J1 on a KDJ11-B cpu module. The manual I have > shows that J1 is the SLU connection and J2 is for baud rate and > status LED's. I have SLU's for MicroVAX II's and 3800's. Both > of these have the right pin counts but by no means indicates the pinout > is compatible. Pinout diagrams would prevent me from letting out the magic > smoke on my only 11/83 CPU module. > Some references: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf Page 2-3, Figure 2-2, Pin Assignments for Connectors J2 and J3 Page 2-4, Table 2-2, J2 and J3 Connectors http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184/EK-1184A-TM-PR2_May85.pdf Page E-2, To J1 on KDJ11-B (CPU) <-> CONSOLE DIST BOARD http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf Page 284, 4. Pin out on the 2x5 pin connector block on the DLV11-J Pin 2, Pin 5, Pin 9 Signal ground tied together, Connect to DB25 Pin 7 Pin 3 TRANSMIT DATA+ Connect to DB25 Pin 2 RXD Pin 4 TRANSMIT DATA- Tied to signal ground (is this correct?) Pin 7 RECEIVE DATA- Tied to signal ground Pin 8 RECEIVE DATA+ Connect to DB25 Pin 3 RXD Pin 10 +12V Connect (through resistor) DB25 Pin 20 DTR Page 285, Figure 7, BC21B-05 Modem Cable From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Feb 5 14:50:46 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 20:50:46 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 In-Reply-To: <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: <4F2EEBA6.7090207@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/02/2012 16:57, Daniel Snyder wrote: > I have looked high and low it seems for documents that detail > the pinout of J1 on a KDJ11-B cpu module. The manual I have > shows that J1 is the SLU connection and J2 is for baud rate and > status LED's. I have SLU's for MicroVAX II's and 3800's. Both > of these have the right pin counts but by no means indicates the pinout > is compatible. Pinout diagrams would prevent me from letting out the > magic smoke on my only 11/83 CPU module. You're very unlikely to let any smoke out by connecting J1 incorrectly. It's a 10-pin Berg connector and AFAIR is wired exactly the same as the matching connectors on a KDF11-B, MXV11-A or -B, DLV11-J, etc. The cable to the proper I/O panel is just a 10-way ribbon cable wired pin-to-pin, but any console cable intended for any of the boards above should be fine for a direct connection, and you can set baud rate etc directly on the KDJ11-B DIP switches. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Feb 5 15:10:50 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 21:10:50 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 In-Reply-To: References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: <4F2EF05A.9080409@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/02/2012 20:39, Glen Slick wrote: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184/EK-1184A-TM-PR2_May85.pdf > Page E-2, To J1 on KDJ11-B (CPU)<-> CONSOLE DIST BOARD That shows the normal pinout for similar SLUs on other processors an serial cards. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf > Page 284, 4. Pin out on the 2x5 pin connector block on the DLV11-J > Pin 2, Pin 5, Pin 9 Signal ground tied together, Connect to DB25 Pin 7 > Pin 3 TRANSMIT DATA+ Connect to DB25 Pin 2 RXD typo: TxD :-) > Pin 4 TRANSMIT DATA- Tied to signal ground (is this correct?) Yes, that's common, it forces one side of the differential (RS422) signal to ground, making it single-ended. > Pin 7 RECEIVE DATA- Tied to signal ground > Pin 8 RECEIVE DATA+ Connect to DB25 Pin 3 RXD > Pin 10 +12V Connect (through resistor) DB25 Pin 20 DTR -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 15:41:28 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 16:41:28 -0500 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: References: <4F2EE1E8.2030403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Richard wrote: > I love how I simply suggested that you contact pocket factory if you > want to try out this process and everyone who's never used one of > these printers comes out of the woodwork and starts whining about how > it will never work. I haven't come out of the woodwork, but I've built and operated multiple hobby-grade Fused Filament Deposition printers, I run the 2+-year-old local Makerbot and RepRap user group, and I speak at conventions on the technology. I also own PDP-11s and PDP-8s with front panels and would like to find a new source of toggle handles. With that, I don't think FFD will make very "nice" toggles. Among other things, there are limits to the hobby-grade machines, including not being able to do overhangs (including hidden pockets) over 45 degrees. This affects how one designs the shape and in what orientation one attempts to print. Higher-end printers do "support material", as will the just-released-weeks-ago Makerbot Replicator (where PVA support material experimentation is in its infancy). Also, the injection-molded DEC toggle handles have their own molded pivot pins (which do occasionally break off), which are so small that they would not be strong enough with any 3D printing technique. There are alternatives (like piano wire pivots), but it complicates the effort. > I guess they'd rather bitch about how there's no supply of toggle > switches and they'll never get replacement switches for their > PDP-11/PDP-8 front panels. I have yet to see anyone post an STL file of the toggle handle shape (with or without pivot pips, with or without a hole for a metal pivot wire). If somone who has CAD skills (not me - I make printers not object designs) wants to tackle the shape, I can evaluate it for printableness. It's not "impossible", but in my experience of working with 3D printers, low end printers will have problems making that shape with sufficient fidelity and strength and high end printers will produce nicer results at a substantially higher expense (potentially multiple dollars per toggle). As a cost comparison - someone recently wanted to see how much it would cost to use stereolithography (liquid resin) versions of parts to make a Mendelmax printer. A company in Colorado sells an entire FFD part set, ready to use for $85. The bid for stereolithography for the same parts was $1500 ($800 of which was the resin). Nice parts cost money. One can bang out something that will probably work on a cheap printer. It will not look as nice as a molded part. It will not even closely match color unless you want to pay for a 25lb custom run of color filament (at $15/lb). You can make many thousands of toggle handles from 25lbs of plastic, but you still have to make them one at a time (though you could split the spools of filament amongst multiple printers for volume). Any other questions? -ethan From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 15:51:41 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:51:41 -0000 Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <454494BDDF254B7FB3108B44EDB46ED4@G4UGMT41> There are a number of places with high quality 3-d printers which are accessible for amateur use at low(ISH) COST. In Manchester, England we have a Fab-Lab with a 3-d printer.. http://www.fablabmanchester.org/p20/Dimension-1200es-Series-3D-Printer.html http://fab.cba.mit.edu/about/faq/ Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: 05 February 2012 21:41 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel > toggle switches? > > > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 3:26 PM, Richard wrote: > > I love how I simply suggested that you contact pocket > factory if you > > want to try out this process and everyone who's never used one of > > these printers comes out of the woodwork and starts whining > about how > > it will never work. > > I haven't come out of the woodwork, but I've built and > operated multiple hobby-grade Fused Filament Deposition > printers, I run the > 2+-year-old local Makerbot and RepRap user group, and I speak at > conventions on the technology. I also own PDP-11s and PDP-8s > with front panels and would like to find a new source of > toggle handles. With that, I don't think FFD will make very > "nice" toggles. Among other things, there are limits to the > hobby-grade machines, including not being able to do > overhangs (including hidden pockets) over 45 degrees. This > affects how one designs the shape and in what orientation one > attempts to print. Higher-end printers do "support > material", as will the just-released-weeks-ago Makerbot > Replicator (where PVA support material experimentation is in > its infancy). Also, the injection-molded DEC toggle handles > have their own molded pivot pins (which do occasionally break > off), which are so small that they would not be strong enough > with any 3D printing technique. There are alternatives (like > piano wire pivots), but it complicates the effort. > > > I guess they'd rather bitch about how there's no supply of toggle > > switches and they'll never get replacement switches for their > > PDP-11/PDP-8 front panels. > > I have yet to see anyone post an STL file of the toggle > handle shape (with or without pivot pips, with or without a > hole for a metal pivot wire). If somone who has CAD skills > (not me - I make printers not object designs) wants to tackle > the shape, I can evaluate it for printableness. > > It's not "impossible", but in my experience of working with > 3D printers, low end printers will have problems making that > shape with sufficient fidelity and strength and high end > printers will produce nicer results at a substantially higher > expense (potentially multiple dollars per toggle). As a cost > comparison - someone recently wanted to see how much it would > cost to use stereolithography (liquid resin) versions of > parts to make a Mendelmax printer. A company in Colorado > sells an entire FFD part set, ready to use for $85. The bid > for stereolithography for the same parts was $1500 ($800 of > which was the resin). Nice parts cost money. > > One can bang out something that will probably work on a cheap > printer. It will not look as nice as a molded part. It will > not even closely match color unless you want to pay for a > 25lb custom run of color filament (at $15/lb). You can make > many thousands of toggle handles from 25lbs of plastic, but > you still have to make them one at a time (though you could > split the spools of filament amongst multiple printers for volume). > > Any other questions? > > -ethan > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 5 16:18:46 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:18:46 -0700 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "MikeS" writes: > ------ Original Message: > Date: Sat, 04 Feb 2012 18:00:55 -0800 > From: Eric Smith > > Richard wrote: > >> If so many InteColor terminals were sold, where did they all end up? > > > In the landfill, just like everything else that was made in the 1970s. > > Even in the 80s ;-) We scrapped several hundred of several later models that > had been sitting on bond traders' desks; might still have some manuals > somewhere if anyone's interested. Lots of stuff from the 70s and 80s survived, otherwise we wouldn't have any PDP-11s, VT100s, etc. It just seems surprising that if these terminals were made in large quantities that there aren't any around in collections. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 16:36:34 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 17:36:34 -0500 Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <4F2E6099.16428.66F368@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> <4F2E6099.16428.66F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The sure-fire way to kill most EPROMs is to install them upside-down > and let electricity take its course. I've seen them survive that (though I don't recommend doing it on purpose). > But as I said, UVEPROMs are pretty rugged things. Indeed. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 17:16:14 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:16:14 -0800 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4F2E9D3E.23440.153DA71@cclist.sydex.com> Over at old-computers.com, there's a comment by an ISC-er that the keyboards were a photoelectric affair--i.e. using leds/lamps and photocells/phototransistors. Are there any other keyboards of this type around? --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Sun Feb 5 17:52:01 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:52:01 -0800 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2F1621.9070000@jwsss.com> On 2/5/2012 2:18 PM, Richard wrote: > It just seems surprising that if these terminals were made in large > quantities that there aren't any around in collections. The thing a friend in the TV business said at the time was that a lot of these were made with a commercial tv set display set, rather than having a display that was better suited to terminal use (constant on, bit more rugged so it could be moved around, etc.) They also tended to gas up and go bad. He didn't want one back in the day (late 70's early 80's) because of that. Also these RCA CRT's were a very long old design, not the later ProScan / RCA design with the flat screen short neck tube. The older tubes that you got to have flat fronts were very deep for their purpose. The value added to these was the programming capability. When I had one, it was expensive to obtain much to make the programming useful, so I sold mine off. I guess I had the Open Source mentality or disposition back then, that if I couldn't get a manual, why bother there are a lot of other toys that could do useful things w/o hassle. I got it for quite a lot of money, and sold it for a profit, so I was happy. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Sun Feb 5 17:55:22 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 15:55:22 -0800 Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: References: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> <4F2E6099.16428.66F368@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F2F16EA.7040702@jwsss.com> Many thanks for the suggestions. I've got a lot of evenings to pass sorting the box. I'll let you all know how things go. Back in the day, I once tested a 2732 as Chuck suggests and got an Intel symbol tattoo on the end of my right index finger for it. It was readable for quite a time before my fingerprint came back. If I were of the bad guy persuasion, it would have been interesting to see the fingerprint card. Maybe burn in a Signetics symbol on another finger, and AMD and Harris on the rest. Not recommended. Jim On 2/5/2012 2:36 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 1:57 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The sure-fire way to kill most EPROMs is to install them upside-down >> and let electricity take its course. > I've seen them survive that (though I don't recommend doing it on purpose). > >> But as I said, UVEPROMs are pretty rugged things. > Indeed. > > -ethan > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 5 19:12:57 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 01:12:57 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse Message-ID: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> Hi all, Does anyone have a spare Acorn mouse, either RISC PC/A5000 (rounded profile) or Archimedes (angular brick) style? I can live with broken switches (got a bag of those!) and "it needs a good clean", but the motion sensors need to work, and it must have a mouse ball and the cover for the "ball pit". For anyone who doesn't know what these look like -- they're usually branded either Logitech or CPC, and have a nine-pin Mini-DIN plug on the end of the wire. Colour is almost always cream (or murky yellow if they've been in the sun) or white for the CPC ones. Basically I need one for my A3000... the blasted PS2Mouse adapter doesn't fit! Alternatively if anyone has a chassis-mount 9-pin mini-DIN socket in their spares box, that'll do just as well (the A3000 has pads on the motherboard for an 'alternate' mouse port.. I just need the connector) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 5 19:14:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 17:14:25 -0800 Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <4F2F16EA.7040702@jwsss.com> References: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com>, , <4F2F16EA.7040702@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F2EB8F1.12621.1C00ABB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2012 at 15:55, jim s wrote: > Back in the day, I once tested a 2732 as Chuck suggests and got an > Intel symbol tattoo on the end of my right index finger for it. It > was readable for quite a time before my fingerprint came back. If I > were of the bad guy persuasion, it would have been interesting to see > the fingerprint card. Maybe burn in a Signetics symbol on another > finger, and AMD and Harris on the rest. Not recommended. You forgot Seeq, Fujitsu,.... :) I wonder how many fingers you'd have left. Given what you time is worth, I'd probably sell these by the pound if a few samples turn out to be good. --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Feb 5 21:30:19 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:30:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <4F2E531C.7030306@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1328499019.104.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 2/5/12, jim s wrote: > I have a come into an opportunity > which people here might help with.? The opportunity is > a 75 to 100# box of Eproms.? > Any ideas on what to do, what the chances are that they will > work? They will work. EPROMs are very hard to damage. Despite all the precautions and warnings, most of this stuff is quite resilient. I have a box-o-EPROMs like that, scavenged pulls from a recycler. I think I've come across two or three bad ones out of hundreds. And there's no telling if they even worked before they were tossed into the pile. > I don't have the means or time to do testing, > though recent discussion suggest there might be some cheap > eprom programmer which might do that.? I have never > blown up a prom from normal handling, w/o antistat but with > the shear number of parts here, the odds are that some are > blown.? I am handling these now with antistat, but the > prior situation is what it is. Don't bother testing them. I'll bet they work. As a frequent purchaser/user of scavenged, piled in box EPROMs, I wouldn't worry. If you want to ship small quantities without them getting bent, just make little stacks, interleaving the legs, invert the one on the bottom, and tie them together with a rubber band. But, I've even been shipped a box of ROMs just crammed in there, and they were mostly OK. Yeah, you have to sit there and straighten legs, and a couple will get trashed, but again, these things are hardy. > Should I sort them by part, list them with a "if it doesn't > work I'll send you another", sell them as untested pull lots > (I will sort and tube them by type a and PN as my > contribution to this project), or some other way? If you want, you can sort them out by part number, but I'd just say send them out by the pound as mixed lots. Much easier that way, and most of us hobbyists use a lot of different types of ROMs. Maybe just go by "small flat rate box-full" or something. -Ian From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 5 21:36:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 19:36:50 -0800 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F2F4AD2.7040103@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > Lots of stuff from the 70s and 80s survived, otherwise we wouldn't > have any PDP-11s, VT100s, etc. Only a tiny fraction of the PDP-11s, VT100s, etc. survived. The vast majority were scrapped. While there may have been a lot of ISC terminals made, for some value of "lot", the number obviously was orders of magnitude fewer than VT100s. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 22:29:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 23:29:09 -0500 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2012, at 3:23 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I beelive one of Vonada's laws is 'There is no such thing as >> ground'. > > Well...in a sense. It's a reasonable approximation when dealnig with > low voltages, such as generally occur in computers. > > But there _is_ a measurable-in-isolation ground potential in the sense > of "not charged"; if you're working with electrostatics, which usually > means (from computer points of view) very high voltages and very low > currents, this can matter in a practical sense. And, in the same sense, earthed ground is very important for lots of things. There are two good reasons ECL runs at negative voltages: - The output drivers are emitter-followers, so shorting a positive voltage to ground (0v) by accident can cause big problems (I've popped the tops off PECL chips that way). With an emitter follower, shorting something driving high (in ECL, let's call it -0.7v) to something driving even higher (0v) does nothing. Given the general saturation of most cabinet environments with grounded metal, this just makes a lot of common sense. - The system "ground" is typically more stable, and this provides rather important noise immunity (or at least improvements) for ECL circuits. This has a lot more to do with the way we treat what we want to call "ground" than any reason relating to its absolute potential, of course. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 5 23:01:22 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:01:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > And, in the same sense, earthed ground is very important for lots of things.$ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Compensating, > There are two good reasons ECL runs at negative voltages: > - The output drivers are emitter-followers, so [...] Um, doesn't this assume which polarity of transistor you're using? Except for asymmetries in the behaviour of the dopants, I can't see any raeson why any bipolar technology wouldn't work equally well if you swap NPN and PNP, reverse all diodes, and negate all voltages. Am I missing something? > - The system "ground" is typically more stable, This mystifies me. Why would system ground be more stable if you view the power supply as ground-and-negative rather than ground-and-positive? > This has a lot more to do with the way we treat what we want to call > "ground" than any reason relating to its absolute potential, of > course. I'm still mystified. How do people treat ground-and-negative power differently from ground-and-positive that makes ground stabler? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Feb 5 23:18:54 2012 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:18:54 -0800 Subject: Restoration of a Zenith/Heathkit Z-100 Message-ID: <201202052118.54556.lbickley@bickleywest.com> I recently acquired a Zenith/Heathkit Z-100. I almost didn't buy it because I have a number of S-100 bus systems, including an Intel 8080. But I was curious about its "dual processor" capabilities. So pack-rat that I am, I bought it. Here's the process I followed in my restoration: I checked out Herb Johnson's website which has a lot of good information on this system (http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z100.html). I especially checked out his description of how to strip a Z-100 down to its motherboard (http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/z_repair.html). I did just that - removed the floppy disk and hard disk unit from the Z-100. I then removed the outer case and keyboard. Next came the video board. I also removed the Floppy Disk controller and the Hard Disk controller from the S-100 bus on the motherboard. Next I disconnected the power connections from the motherboard and removed the keyboard and found the foam mounting material gooey and disintegrating (not unusual for vintage systems). Finally I removed the video controller from the motherboard. Stripping the system gave me the opportunity to check out the motherboard - both in terms of integrity and making sure that all the chips (which are socketed) were seated correctly. It also allowed me to document all of the jumper and switch settings on the motherboard. I found that the motherboard had been upgraded to the full 786KB of RAM. I examined the video daughter card - and found it had the full 64K of video RAM. I also found that the motherboard had been upgraded with a "UCI - ZSM 8Mhz" daughter card. I also noted that U146 had been modified with a 74L257 "stacked" on top of whatever chip was originally there. I have no Idea what that was for (if any of you do, please let me know!). I cleaned up the gooey foam and installed some Scotch two sided foam to replace it. I then put a dummy load on the power supply (switching supplies "like" loads). I used an old disk drive for the load (which I didn't care if it got destroyed by an aberrant voltage). I powered the system on - and the disk drive came up normally. I checked out all the power supply voltages: +16 was +15.98; +8 was +7.75; -16 was -16; +5 was +5.01 with 2mv of AC; +12 was 11.82 with 7mv of AC. Given these good readings, I was ready to re-install all the systems components - which I did. (BTW, while I was disassembling the system, I had made extensive notes on what cables went where, etc., so putting it back together was an easy task.) I then cleaned the contacts of the S-100 Floppy Disk Controller and Hard Disk Controller with DeoxIT Gold (formerly ProGold). I've found the stuff is terrific in making sure contacts have great conductivity - and stay that way. I then re-inserted both into the S-100 bus. I connected a video monitor to the system - turned it on - and then powered up the system. To my great (and pleasant) surprise, the screen indicated that the system tried to boot but found a hardware problem. Fortunately, the system's ROM has a number of built-in diagnostics. The "startup" diags passed, as did the memory and keyboard. However, the HDD could not be read. Before I jumped to the conclusion that the HDD was bad (it was spinning happily) - I decided to re-check my re-cabling. Sure enough, I had forgot to re-attach a power connector to the HDD separator board. After fixing my goof, I power up the system again - and to my super pleasure, it booted up to a prompt! I had hoped it would be CP/M - but instead it was Zenith DOS 2.11. I've played with the system a bit - including testing out the floppy disk drive - and backing up the DOS system. Everything seems to work well. Here's the Z-100's hardware configuration: Dual CPU 8085, 8088 RAM 768K Video RAM 64K, Color HDD 10MB FDD 320K (double side, dual density) 8MHz upgrade Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Feb 5 23:38:51 2012 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 21:38:51 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On 5 Feb 2012, at 9:01 PM, Mouse wrote: [snip] > I'm still mystified. How do people treat ground-and-negative power > differently from ground-and-positive that makes ground stabler? IIRC, there's a couple of things at play here: - Ground is presumed to be the most stable voltage in the system (I believe this is *the* reason that ECL is *specified* as positive ground) by virtue of the fact that it's usually nothing more than a (distributed) hunk of metal with only parasitic devices associated with it. - ECL is more or less immune to noise on Vee but fairly sensitive to it on Vcc. That's not to say that you can't build ECL that works as you suggest; there's +5 PECL out there as well as +3.3V LVPECL; I believe that both are differential systems. -- Dr. Christian Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Feb 5 23:50:09 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:50:09 -0500 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:01 AM, Mouse wrote: >> And, in the same sense, earthed ground is very important for lots of things.$ > > Please don't use paragraph-length lines. Sorry. Still searching for something I like better than Thunderbird, which I'll use over Outlook any day but not Mail.app. >> There are two good reasons ECL runs at negative voltages: > >> - The output drivers are emitter-followers, so [...] > > Um, doesn't this assume which polarity of transistor you're using? > Except for asymmetries in the behaviour of the dopants, I can't see any > raeson why any bipolar technology wouldn't work equally well if you > swap NPN and PNP, reverse all diodes, and negate all voltages. Am I > missing something? Well, it does if you're making emitter-followers. They only drive voltage in the direction of the emitter (so NPN will source strongly while PNP will sink strongly). ECL is designed with a complimentary pair of emitters sourcing a low-differential voltage into a termination pulldown (which is necessary, or you'll only get high voltage, since the emitter-follower won't pull the other way). So in short, yes it does assume the polarity, but ECL defines the polarity. They could have done emitter-followers with PNP if they'd wanted, but I imagine at the time the difference between the dopants would have been extreme enough that you'd get severe enough performance degradation that NPN with a negative Vee was considered worthwhile. It can still be a factor of 2 difference between P-type and N-type these days. >> - The system "ground" is typically more stable, > > This mystifies me. Why would system ground be more stable if you view > the power supply as ground-and-negative rather than > ground-and-positive? It's not. It's just that the long-tailed pair (which ECL uses as the input buffer) isn't as sensitive to noise on Vee (because that just changes the common mode voltage) as it is to noise on the inputs (which you'd get through noise on Vcc). Using ground as Vcc makes for a more stable circuit in this case, assuming ground is a quieter rail than a positive Vcc would be. Again, as above, if you could make PNP transistors that performed as well as NPN, they might have opted for that instead. These days, we use PECL (with NPN drivers) for all sorts of things because transistors are better and the noise margins are good enough that we don't have to worry about that; we worry about having enough current to drive hundreds of MHz over long traces with fast edges (which is why you'll see lots of PECL clock buffers even today). >> This has a lot more to do with the way we treat what we want to call >> "ground" than any reason relating to its absolute potential, of >> course. > > I'm still mystified. How do people treat ground-and-negative power > differently from ground-and-positive that makes ground stabler? They're not saying that ground is stabler, they're saying that using ground as Vcc is stabler than using a regulated rail as Vcc (which, in any normal system that's not using a daisy-chain of lamp wire for its grounding, is usually true). Wikipedia actually has a pretty good discussion of this on its ECL page. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 6 00:08:44 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 05 Feb 2012 23:08:44 -0700 Subject: IC Pulls In-Reply-To: <1328499019.104.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1328499019.104.YahooMailClassic@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1328499019.104.YahooMailClassic at web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > If you want, you can sort them out by part number, but I'd just say > send them out by the pound as mixed lots. I'd go for that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Feb 6 00:09:55 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:09:55 +0000 Subject: Restoration of a Zenith/Heathkit Z-100 In-Reply-To: <201202052118.54556.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On 2/5/12 9:18 PM, "Lyle Bickley" wrote: >I recently acquired a Zenith/Heathkit Z-100. I almost didn't buy it >because I have a number of S-100 bus systems, including an Intel 8080. >But I was curious about its "dual processor" capabilities. So pack-rat >that I am, I bought it. > >Here's the process I followed in my restoration: > >I checked out Herb Johnson's website which has a lot of good information >on this system (http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z100.html). I >especially checked out his description of how to strip a Z-100 down to >its motherboard (http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/z_repair.html). > >I did just that - removed the floppy disk and hard disk unit from the >Z-100. I then removed the outer case and keyboard. Next came the video >board. I also removed the Floppy Disk controller and the Hard Disk >controller from the S-100 bus on the motherboard. Next I disconnected the >power connections from the motherboard and removed the keyboard and found >the foam mounting material gooey and disintegrating (not unusual for >vintage systems). Finally I removed the video controller from the >motherboard. > >Stripping the system gave me the opportunity to check out the >motherboard - both in terms of integrity and making sure that all the >chips (which are socketed) were seated correctly. It also allowed me to >document all of the jumper and switch settings on the motherboard. > >I found that the motherboard had been upgraded to the full 786KB of RAM. >I examined the video daughter card - and found it had the full 64K of >video RAM. I also found that the motherboard had been upgraded with a >"UCI - ZSM 8Mhz" daughter card. I also noted that U146 had been modified >with a 74L257 "stacked" on top of whatever chip was originally there. I >have no Idea what that was for (if any of you do, please let me know!). > >I cleaned up the gooey foam and installed some Scotch two sided foam to >replace it. I then put a dummy load on the power supply (switching >supplies "like" loads). I used an old disk drive for the load (which I >didn't care if it got destroyed by an aberrant voltage). I powered the >system on - and the disk drive came up normally. I checked out all the >power supply voltages: +16 was +15.98; +8 was +7.75; -16 was -16; +5 was >+5.01 with 2mv of AC; +12 was 11.82 with 7mv of AC. > >Given these good readings, I was ready to re-install all the systems >components - which I did. (BTW, while I was disassembling the system, I >had made extensive notes on what cables went where, etc., so putting it >back together was an easy task.) > >I then cleaned the contacts of the S-100 Floppy Disk Controller and Hard >Disk Controller with DeoxIT Gold (formerly ProGold). I've found the stuff >is terrific in making sure contacts have great conductivity - and stay >that way. I then re-inserted both into the S-100 bus. > >I connected a video monitor to the system - turned it on - and then >powered up the system. To my great (and pleasant) surprise, the screen >indicated that the system tried to boot but found a hardware problem. >Fortunately, the system's ROM has a number of built-in diagnostics. The >"startup" diags passed, as did the memory and keyboard. However, the HDD >could not be read. Before I jumped to the conclusion that the HDD was bad >(it was spinning happily) - I decided to re-check my re-cabling. Sure >enough, I had forgot to re-attach a power connector to the HDD separator >board. > >After fixing my goof, I power up the system again - and to my super >pleasure, it booted up to a prompt! > >I had hoped it would be CP/M - but instead it was Zenith DOS 2.11. I've >played with the system a bit - including testing out the floppy disk >drive - and backing up the DOS system. Everything seems to work well. > >Here's the Z-100's hardware configuration: > >Dual CPU 8085, 8088 >RAM 768K >Video RAM 64K, Color >HDD 10MB >FDD 320K (double side, dual density) >8MHz upgrade > >Cheers, >Lyle >-- >Lyle Bickley, AF6WS >Bickley Consulting West Inc. >http://bickleywest.com >"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > Very cool find, and a very nice write-up of the restoration. Congratulations, and thanks! -- Ian From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 6 00:31:46 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 01:31:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > They could have done emitter-followers with PNP if they'd wanted, but > I imagine at the time the difference between the dopants would have > been extreme enough that you'd get severe enough performance > degradation that NPN with a negative Vee was considered worthwhile. > It can still be a factor of 2 difference between P-type and N-type > these days. Um. Wow. I had no idea the difference was that great. I'd felt sure there would be a difference, simply because different dopaant atoms are bound to have different properties, but I would have expected the difference to be in the single-digit percentage range. That the difference is more like a factor of two rather gasts my flabber. Given that, I can see how the rest follows from it. But now I'm curious. What sort of performance degradation does PNP exhibit? Slower switching? Higher power dissipation? And what's the underlying difference behind it, do you know? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Feb 5 15:24:11 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 16:24:11 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: <8E31BD38BA1D4C1BAD137332750BE278@OptiplexGX620> Glen, Thanks, once again proves I have eyes and cannot see.. I had these manuals but did not see (read thoroughly). Any info on the SLU for a MVII or MicroVAX 3800 in a BA215? These are the SLU's I have. I also have a Fluke meter, paper and pencil as well and will prpbably ring out the cables and connectors. Thanks again, Dan Snyder Butler, PA USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 3:39 PM Subject: Re: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 > On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 8:57 AM, Daniel Snyder > wrote: >> I have looked high and low it seems for documents that detail >> the pinout of J1 on a KDJ11-B cpu module. The manual I have >> shows that J1 is the SLU connection and J2 is for baud rate and >> status LED's. I have SLU's for MicroVAX II's and 3800's. Both >> of these have the right pin counts but by no means indicates the pinout >> is compatible. Pinout diagrams would prevent me from letting out the >> magic >> smoke on my only 11/83 CPU module. >> > > Some references: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1173/EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf > Page 2-3, Figure 2-2, Pin Assignments for Connectors J2 and J3 > Page 2-4, Table 2-2, J2 and J3 Connectors > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1184/EK-1184A-TM-PR2_May85.pdf > Page E-2, To J1 on KDJ11-B (CPU) <-> CONSOLE DIST BOARD > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/qbus/EB-23144-18_QbusIntrfs_1983.pdf > Page 284, 4. Pin out on the 2x5 pin connector block on the DLV11-J > Pin 2, Pin 5, Pin 9 Signal ground tied together, Connect to DB25 Pin 7 > Pin 3 TRANSMIT DATA+ Connect to DB25 Pin 2 RXD > Pin 4 TRANSMIT DATA- Tied to signal ground (is this correct?) > Pin 7 RECEIVE DATA- Tied to signal ground > Pin 8 RECEIVE DATA+ Connect to DB25 Pin 3 RXD > Pin 10 +12V Connect (through resistor) DB25 Pin 20 DTR > Page 285, Figure 7, BC21B-05 Modem Cable > From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Sun Feb 5 23:49:48 2012 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 00:49:48 -0500 Subject: Computer Language magazine 1986 Message-ID: I am trying to find reprints of "Interpreter Design and Construction" (parts I and II) by Dave Taylor in Computer Language July and September 1986. If anyone can help please drop me a message. Thanks. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 6 03:44:54 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 01:44:54 -0800 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> On 02/05/2012 10:31 PM, Mouse wrote: > But now I'm curious. What sort of performance degradation does PNP > exhibit? Slower switching? Higher power dissipation? And what's the > underlying difference behind it, do you know? If I recall correctly (and I'm no expert on solid-state physics, so I could easily be wrong), the difference comes about because electron mobility in silicon is about three times the hole mobility. Wikipedia says Si at 300K has electron mobility of 1400 cm^2/V*s, vs. hole mobility of 450 cm^2/V*s. From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 06:55:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 07:55:45 -0500 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <5463D8B0-D5A8-4465-BF96-9BF487DB8BDF@gmail.com> On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:44 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 02/05/2012 10:31 PM, Mouse wrote: >> But now I'm curious. What sort of performance degradation does PNP exhibit? Slower switching? Higher power dissipation? And what's the underlying difference behind it, do you know? > If I recall correctly (and I'm no expert on solid-state physics, so I could easily be wrong), the difference comes about because electron mobility in silicon is about three times the hole mobility. Wikipedia says Si at 300K has electron mobility of 1400 cm^2/V*s, vs. hole mobility of 450 cm^2/V*s. Nor am I an expert, but that's pretty much it. In CMOS ICs, the typical practice is to double the channel width of the P channel to compensate for the difference. This roughly equalizes the current of the two halves, but the capacitance for the P transistor's gate is doubled because the gate area is doubled. I don't recall how it affects bipolar devices, though I imagine it's the same. - Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 11:02:10 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:02:10 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/83 SLU - pin outs for J1 and J2 In-Reply-To: <8E31BD38BA1D4C1BAD137332750BE278@OptiplexGX620> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4CA0BE5B5EAF4B9CAE9D7C7B01E907AE@Pc12> <20120203120004.GA37365@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2BE662.3000301@telegraphics.com.au> <20120203203543.GB49331@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F2DD9E7.7030103@telegraphics.com.au> <20120205131822.GA58760@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <02C993944D8B4F60B3B7ECD9A6A1474B@OptiplexGX620> <8E31BD38BA1D4C1BAD137332750BE278@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 5, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Glen, > > Thanks, once again proves I have eyes and cannot see.. I had these manuals > but did not see (read thoroughly). > > Any info on the SLU for a MVII or MicroVAX 3800 in a BA215? These > are the SLU's I have. I also have a Fluke meter, paper and pencil as well > and > will prpbably ring out the cables and connectors. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf Page 58, Console Serial Line Interface Page 59, LEDS and Configuration Connector Page 85. SLU Module for M7608 (KA630) The VAX 20-pin J2 connector does not appear to be compatible with the KDJ11-B connector. It shouldn't be too much work to build your own console cable with a 10-pin IDC connector. I have built a few of those to connect to boards such as CMD CDQ-220 and others which have the same pinout as the 10-pin DEC async connectors. -Glen From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Feb 6 12:44:56 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 12:44:56 -0600 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: <4F2F4AD2.7040103@brouhaha.com> References: , , , <4F2F4AD2.7040103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: The ISC 8001 19" got lots of service in industrial control rooms. Several companies rebadged it (USDATA, Dynapro, Allen Bradley). With character graphics and a special ISA character set it did extremely well in fast screen updates and animation. (Think valves and pipes turning red/green, tanks filling up, etc.) Impressive for a 2MHz 8080. > Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 19:36:50 -0800 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: ISC history > > Richard wrote: > > Lots of stuff from the 70s and 80s survived, otherwise we wouldn't > > have any PDP-11s, VT100s, etc. > > Only a tiny fraction of the PDP-11s, VT100s, etc. survived. The vast > majority were scrapped. > > While there may have been a lot of ISC terminals made, for some value of > "lot", the number obviously was orders of magnitude fewer than VT100s. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 6 12:53:15 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 13:53:15 -0500 Subject: Computer Language magazine 1986 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F30219B.9060009@neurotica.com> On 02/06/2012 12:49 AM, Damien Cymbal wrote: > > I am trying to find reprints of "Interpreter Design and Construction" (parts I and II) by Dave Taylor in Computer Language July and September 1986. If anyone can help please drop me a message. I wouldn't mind a copy of that if you happen to get it in an electronic format. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 12:54:03 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 13:54:03 -0500 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: <4F2F4AD2.7040103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > The ISC 8001 19" got lots of service in industrial control rooms. ?Several companies rebadged it (USDATA, Dynapro, Allen Bradley). ?With character graphics and a special ISA character set it did extremely well in fast screen updates and animation. ?(Think valves and pipes turning red/green, tanks filling up, etc.) ?Impressive for a 2MHz 8080. Now that you mention that, I think Control Data had some early color raster systems for industrial controls, I think before 1979. I think they were semicustom jobs. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 6 12:57:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 10:57:10 -0800 Subject: ISC history In-Reply-To: References: , <4F2F4AD2.7040103@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4F2FB206.10527.60DEA5@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2012 at 12:44, Randy Dawson wrote: > The ISC 8001 19" got lots of service in industrial control rooms. > Several companies rebadged it (USDATA, Dynapro, Allen Bradley). With > character graphics and a special ISA character set it did extremely > well in fast screen updates and animation. (Think valves and pipes > turning red/green, tanks filling up, etc.) Impressive for a 2MHz > 8080. I've seen several outfits on the web who offer servicing and repair for the 8001, so they must still be around. It seems that it found use both in control rooms, and apparently, in early CAD use. Perhaps a few phone calls to said outfits might yield one sitting around in a back room. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Feb 6 13:55:55 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:55:55 +1300 Subject: Restoration of a Zenith/Heathkit Z-100 In-Reply-To: References: <201202052118.54556.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: Very cool. I hope someday to have an S-100 bus system in my collection. Terry Stewart (tez) On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 7:09 PM, Ian King wrote: > On 2/5/12 9:18 PM, "Lyle Bickley" wrote: > > >I recently acquired a Zenith/Heathkit Z-100. I almost didn't buy it > >because I have a number of S-100 bus systems, including an Intel 8080. > >But I was curious about its "dual processor" capabilities. So pack-rat > >that I am, I bought it. > > > >Here's the process I followed in my restoration: > > > >I checked out Herb Johnson's website which has a lot of good information > >on this system (http://www.retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/z100.html). I > >especially checked out his description of how to strip a Z-100 down to > >its motherboard (http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/z_repair.html). > > > >I did just that - removed the floppy disk and hard disk unit from the > >Z-100. I then removed the outer case and keyboard. Next came the video > >board. I also removed the Floppy Disk controller and the Hard Disk > >controller from the S-100 bus on the motherboard. Next I disconnected the > >power connections from the motherboard and removed the keyboard and found > >the foam mounting material gooey and disintegrating (not unusual for > >vintage systems). Finally I removed the video controller from the > >motherboard. > > > >Stripping the system gave me the opportunity to check out the > >motherboard - both in terms of integrity and making sure that all the > >chips (which are socketed) were seated correctly. It also allowed me to > >document all of the jumper and switch settings on the motherboard. > > > >I found that the motherboard had been upgraded to the full 786KB of RAM. > >I examined the video daughter card - and found it had the full 64K of > >video RAM. I also found that the motherboard had been upgraded with a > >"UCI - ZSM 8Mhz" daughter card. I also noted that U146 had been modified > >with a 74L257 "stacked" on top of whatever chip was originally there. I > >have no Idea what that was for (if any of you do, please let me know!). > > > >I cleaned up the gooey foam and installed some Scotch two sided foam to > >replace it. I then put a dummy load on the power supply (switching > >supplies "like" loads). I used an old disk drive for the load (which I > >didn't care if it got destroyed by an aberrant voltage). I powered the > >system on - and the disk drive came up normally. I checked out all the > >power supply voltages: +16 was +15.98; +8 was +7.75; -16 was -16; +5 was > >+5.01 with 2mv of AC; +12 was 11.82 with 7mv of AC. > > > >Given these good readings, I was ready to re-install all the systems > >components - which I did. (BTW, while I was disassembling the system, I > >had made extensive notes on what cables went where, etc., so putting it > >back together was an easy task.) > > > >I then cleaned the contacts of the S-100 Floppy Disk Controller and Hard > >Disk Controller with DeoxIT Gold (formerly ProGold). I've found the stuff > >is terrific in making sure contacts have great conductivity - and stay > >that way. I then re-inserted both into the S-100 bus. > > > >I connected a video monitor to the system - turned it on - and then > >powered up the system. To my great (and pleasant) surprise, the screen > >indicated that the system tried to boot but found a hardware problem. > >Fortunately, the system's ROM has a number of built-in diagnostics. The > >"startup" diags passed, as did the memory and keyboard. However, the HDD > >could not be read. Before I jumped to the conclusion that the HDD was bad > >(it was spinning happily) - I decided to re-check my re-cabling. Sure > >enough, I had forgot to re-attach a power connector to the HDD separator > >board. > > > >After fixing my goof, I power up the system again - and to my super > >pleasure, it booted up to a prompt! > > > >I had hoped it would be CP/M - but instead it was Zenith DOS 2.11. I've > >played with the system a bit - including testing out the floppy disk > >drive - and backing up the DOS system. Everything seems to work well. > > > >Here's the Z-100's hardware configuration: > > > >Dual CPU 8085, 8088 > >RAM 768K > >Video RAM 64K, Color > >HDD 10MB > >FDD 320K (double side, dual density) > >8MHz upgrade > > > >Cheers, > >Lyle > >-- > >Lyle Bickley, AF6WS > >Bickley Consulting West Inc. > >http://bickleywest.com > >"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > > > > > Very cool find, and a very nice write-up of the restoration. > Congratulations, and thanks! -- Ian > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 13:01:13 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:01:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: <4F2EE141.8010709@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 5, 12 08:06:25 pm Message-ID: > >> This damage was caused by me mentioning to a friend "I need to take the > >> motherboard out and drill a hole in the case for the I2C DIN socket..." > >> He took a B&D drill, loaded a 10mm bit and drilled the case. With the > >> motherboard still installed. > >> "Oh, I thought you'd already removed the motherboard...?" > > > > ARGH! That's not pleasant... > > > > I asume the next workpiece that drill was used on was your (ex?-) friend ;-) > > No. But I did hurl a series of rather colourful adjectives at him... Is that _all_ you hurled at him? I would have thought a medium-sized mains transformer would be a suitable missile here :-). Even more so if it has exposed connections and is plugged in at the time... > > > Is this the clipped-together membrane keyboard that Acorn used at one > > point? > > I think so. It has the feel of a mid-90s PC keyboard... > > Connection is via two plastic ribbon cables with black (carbon?) tracks > and contact pads. Soudns like the Acorn membrane one. I may be confusing it with something else (I've had hundreds of keybaords o nthe bench over the yers...) but there's one where there's a plastic key greap with little plastic hooks that fit through slots in the metal bakcing plate. You can carefully free each hook with a small screwdriver (start in one corner) and lift the metal plate off. > > > If o, I thin it comes apart from the bottom (unclip the metal > > backing plate, then take off the memberane layers). The LEds have their > > leadouts bent over the keyboard moulding and come into contact with pads > > on one of the membrane sheets. > > I assume it can be reassembled without damage? Yes. It just all clips back together again if it's the one I am thinking of. Of course you have to be careful not to break the plastic hooks, but breaking one or two won't make too much difference > > Most membrane keyboards I've looked at can be disassembled, but are > either difficult or impossible to reassemble. Many are heat-staked, which makes life difficult. I've never managed to reassemble an LK201, for example. The IBM Type M can be done (yes, that's a membrane keybaord), but you have to drill out the old stake posts on the plastic chassis, tap them, and fit machine screws with nuts on the underside. It's only worth doing because it's a Type M. On the other hand, the membrane keyboard in the Tandy CoCo 2 and 3 is assembled with lots of small self-tapping screws. It comes apart and goines back together with few problems. And I've eseen severa; cheap PC-clone keybaords where the membrane layers are held together by the case (these keyboards have many screws on the bottom), again, you can take them apart and put them together again (but it's questionable if it's worth it :-)). > > > It's worth making sure it;s not contact trouble between the LED and the > > seeht before you replace them. > > That's a good point... I might attack the LEDs with some contact cleaner > first, then. Take the keyboard apart, clean the membeane pads and the LED leads with a Q-tip and propan-2-ol. For obvisou reasons don't try to solder to the membrane sheet... And surely you know how to test LEDs... (analogue ohmmeter, some DMM diode test ranges, battery and resistor, etc) > > >> Indeed. Using Mk.1 Eyeball, they're 0.1in pitch. A KK would probably > > > > Watch out.. As you must know by now, there are 2.5mm pitch and 0.1" pitch > > connecotrs, and it matters on something with 9 or 10 pins... > > One of the many alternative uses for a roll of 'rainbow' IDC cable :) I often use an offcut of stripboard or a DIL socket/IC for this.... > > >> Pass on that one. What are your thoughts on the full-size DIN connector? > > > > The connector isn;t too bad, athough I wish the isulator round the pins > > was made of a plastic with a higher melting point. Often at least one pin > > moves out of the right position when you solder them. > > Ugh, too right on that point. I usually buy a socket and a plug, mate > the two connectors, put the whole thing in the Panavise then use a set > of 'helping hands' to hold the wires while I solder them. A little > over-the-top, but it keeps the pins nicely in line. Sure. I do much the same thing (although I probably have a suitable socket in the junk box, remember that a 6 pi nsocket will take a 5 pin 'B' plug, and an 8 pin circular socket will take 3, 5A and 7 pin plugs too. I have a small metalwork vice on my electronics bench for criming IDC sockets, holdign things when soldering, etc. I've never needed the helping hands, I cna normally hold the cable by hand when soldering to a DIN plug. Even if I do end up with burnt fingers... > > > Indeed... There are some phono plubs with a sliding sleeve on the > > outside so that the ground makes first, but they are not common... > > I was wondering if anyone had done that... I can't rememebr where I saw them, but it was one of the well-known connector manufacturers who made them. > Nice idea, but expensive and I'll bet prone to failure (springs don't > last forever). Sure... But if the slding sleeve foe fail, the thing still works as a normal phono plug, so you are no worse off. > > Probably rather pointless too -- most of the time, phono plugs go in > when the stereo is set up, and are left until a house-move or whatever. You don't live in my workshop... ;-0 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 13:07:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:07:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Feb 5, 12 03:23:22 pm Message-ID: > > To get mildly on-topic, I believe there's a TTL IC on one of the > > boards in an RK05 that is powered between a +10V line (generated o > > nthat board) and the main +15V line. > > Here's another case where "there is no such thing as ground" can fail: > what you outline works only if there are other loads on the on-board > +10V line that collectively draw more current than the TTL in question > does. (Loading internal to the circuit generating it counts.) Sure. In other words the 10V line needs to sink current (from a higher voltage point) rather than source current (towards a lower voltage point). You have to take some care in the design of the cirucit that supplies this 10V rail (as you imply), but that's not difficult once you realise the problem, and it certianly doesn't stop you calling any point oyu likew in the circuit 'ground'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 13:16:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:16:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: any interest in 3D printed DEC front panel toggle switches? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 5, 12 04:41:28 pm Message-ID: > (where PVA support material experimentation is in its infancy). Also, > the injection-molded DEC toggle handles have their own molded pivot > pins (which do occasionally break off), which are so small that they > would not be strong enough with any 3D printing technique. There are > alternatives (like piano wire pivots), but it complicates the effort. My experience of real DEC handles is that these pivots are the major failure mode. If you have the old handle, you cna caefully drill out the pivot and fit a metal rod (piano wire, etc) -- but make sure you have everything correctly aligned before you drill!. As regards (coming out of the woodwork, I'll happily agree I've never used a 3D printer. But I have used plenty of frontpanel switches, and I have had plenty of plastic compoentns fail. THat's why I was _asking_ how the strength of the 3D-printed one would compare with an original. I don't know, please eductate me. Loo, come up with the 3D design, print a set of them, fit them to your 8 or 11 and toggle in varios bootstraps, diagnostics, etc. Then yo ucan see if they;kk hold up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 13:25:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:25:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 6, 12 01:12:57 am Message-ID: > For anyone who doesn't know what these look like -- they're usually > branded either Logitech or CPC, and have a nine-pin Mini-DIN plug on the Quadrature-output mice are getting hard to find now, and many of my machiens depend on them, so I am keeping all I have ;-(. > end of the wire. Colour is almost always cream (or murky yellow if > they've been in the sun) or white for the CPC ones. > > Basically I need one for my A3000... the blasted PS2Mouse adapter > doesn't fit! > > Alternatively if anyone has a chassis-mount 9-pin mini-DIN socket in > their spares box, that'll do just as well (the A3000 has pads on the > motherboard for an 'alternate' mouse port.. I just need the connector) Could you change both parts of the connector (on the machine and the mouse/adapter) and use, say, a DE9? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 13:31:39 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:31:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Feb 6, 12 00:01:22 am Message-ID: > I'm still mystified. How do people treat ground-and-negative power > differently from ground-and-positive that makes ground stabler? If you have multiple power supplies of the same nominal voltage supplying different parts of the system (say several 5V PSUs, each supply part of the TTL logic in the device), you only interconnect one side of them, conventiaolly the side that's called 'ground'. If you conenct both side,s you're connecitng the PSUs in parallel and either high currents will flow in an attempt to equalise the voltages, or one supply wil lend up doing most of the work, since the 2 supplies won't have exactly the same output votlage under all conditions. In that case I cna think of times where it could make a difference whether it was the positive of negative rail that was common throughout the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 6 13:40:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 19:40:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Xerox IC house number cross-reference? Message-ID: Does anyone have a cross-refernece list for Xerox house-numbered ICs? The particular one I am looking for is 733W21L1 It's an 8 pin DIL package. Pins 1,5,8 are not used on the PCB. The others are the conventional op-amp pinout (2 = -ve input, 3 = +ve input, 4 = 0ve supply, 6 = output, 7 = +ve supply). I've replaced it with the obvious 741, and am getting rather better results than with the original (the output of which was stuck at 6V), but I'd like ot know if the original has any odd characteristics. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Feb 6 14:53:56 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:53:56 +0000 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <5463D8B0-D5A8-4465-BF96-9BF487DB8BDF@gmail.com> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> <5463D8B0-D5A8-4465-BF96-9BF487DB8BDF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F303DE4.9070904@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/02/2012 12:55, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:44 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On 02/05/2012 10:31 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> But now I'm curious. What sort of performance degradation does PNP exhibit? Slower switching? Higher power dissipation? And what's the underlying difference behind it, do you know? >> If I recall correctly (and I'm no expert on solid-state physics, so I could easily be wrong), the difference comes about because electron mobility in silicon is about three times the hole mobility. Wikipedia says Si at 300K has electron mobility of 1400 cm^2/V*s, vs. hole mobility of 450 cm^2/V*s. > > Nor am I an expert, but that's pretty much it. In CMOS ICs, the typical > practice is to double the channel width of the P channel to compensate for > the difference. This roughly equalizes the current of the two halves, but > the capacitance for the P transistor's gate is doubled because the gate > area is doubled. I don't recall how it affects bipolar devices, though I > imagine it's the same. The end effect is reduced gain, sometimes accompanied by lower fmax. Nowadays a factor of about two in hfe, but in years gone by it wasn't unusual to see apparently-complimentary transistors with more than a factor of ten difference. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 15:28:57 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:28:57 -0500 Subject: VCF East t-shirt news .... In-Reply-To: References: <4F17815A.3070204@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4F304619.1020403@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 19 January 2012 02:35, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Here's something neat: the VCF East 8.0 t-shirt art is being designed by >> George Beker, who did all the robot art for Creative Computing magazine and >> their "BASIC Computer Games" books. He's drawing a special "VCF Bot" for us >> -- and the ONLY way to get one is to attend the show. > > Liam Proven likes this. > > I only wish I had a spare ?3000 or so, in order that I could afford to attend... Why so much? Peace... Sridhar From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 6 15:33:26 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:33:26 -0500 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F303DE4.9070904@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> <5463D8B0-D5A8-4465-BF96-9BF487DB8BDF@gmail.com> <4F303DE4.9070904@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:53 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Nor am I an expert, but that's pretty much it. In CMOS ICs, the typical >> practice is to double the channel width of the P channel to compensate for >> the difference. This roughly equalizes the current of the two halves, but >> the capacitance for the P transistor's gate is doubled because the gate >> area is doubled. I don't recall how it affects bipolar devices, though I >> imagine it's the same. > > The end effect is reduced gain, sometimes accompanied by lower fmax. Nowadays a factor of about two in hfe, but in years gone by it wasn't unusual to see apparently-complimentary transistors with more than a factor of ten difference. Right. You can see the effect if you look up 2N3904/3906 datasheets and compare; the 3906 has similar characteristics to the 3904, but "worse" in several ways because they've resized the device to have similar gain characteristics to the 3904. For example, comparing Fairchild's datasheets side by side I see the 3906 has slightly higher typical gains by about 10%, but the Ft is 250 MHz instead of 300, probably mostly due to the increased capacitance from the larger junction area, while Vce_max is lower on the 3906 presumably due to the shorter base region length (or heavier doping, it's hard to say). - Dave From ray at arachelian.com Mon Feb 6 16:07:21 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 17:07:21 -0500 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> On 02/03/2012 03:51 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > You probably win, but I run NetBSD/mac68k on a Mac IIci with the > original 25MHz '030. It has 128MB of RAM and takes several minutes to > pass POST. I now run it without a cache card because that was the > major reason why it would kernel panic after some months of uptime > (the cache card would inevitably blow a cap). So it's slower, but it's > happy. Oh yeah, well, in my day, I ran Xenix on a Lisa at 5MHz, no windowing system there, on a pair of 5MB profile drives. :) And yes, you kids have it very nice these days, in my day, we used to hike uphill 5 miles in the snow, both ways, to/from school, and we had to watch out for sabre toothed cats. (Waiting for the guys that ran real UNIX on a PDP-8 to show up and say they rode T-Rex's to school.) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 6 16:56:26 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 22:56:26 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F305A9A.2020800@philpem.me.uk> On 06/02/12 19:25, Tony Duell wrote: > Quadrature-output mice are getting hard to find now, and many of my > machiens depend on them, so I am keeping all I have ;-(. So I've noticed. And nobody seems to sell 3-button ball mice any more (well, not now optical mice are down to the ?5ea price band), so you can't exactly buy one of those, remove the PS/2 controller and add a 74LS14 to make a quadrature mouse. > Could you change both parts of the connector (on the machine and the > mouse/adapter) and use, say, a DE9? The PS2MouseMini is basically a PS/2 socket, a bit of cable and a 9-pin mini-DIN plug, with a microcontroller hidden in the plug. There's nothing you can really do with it... I'd need an in-line 9W mini-DIN socket to make an adapter cable, or a chassis-mount socket to mod the A3000 to have a second mouse socket on one side. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 6 18:57:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 16:57:31 -0800 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > (Waiting for the guys that ran real UNIX on a PDP-8 to show up and say > they rode T-Rex's to school.) No, the PDP-8 Unix is one of the modern ones. Only the guys that ran really early Unix rode T-Rexes. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 6 20:00:28 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 18:00:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Ray Arachelian wrote: >> (Waiting for the guys that ran real UNIX on a PDP-8 to show up and say they >> rode T-Rex's to school.) > No, the PDP-8 Unix is one of the modern ones. Only the guys that ran really > early Unix rode T-Rexes. So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think the PDP-8 could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 6 20:25:38 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 19:25:38 -0700 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F308BA2.2070006@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/6/2012 7:00 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> (Waiting for the guys that ran real UNIX on a PDP-8 to show up and >>> say they rode T-Rex's to school.) >> No, the PDP-8 Unix is one of the modern ones. Only the guys that ran >> really early Unix rode T-Rexes. > No No No ... that was T-nix followed later with U when the programers could club meat, build fire and recite most of the Alphabet*. You seem to have a few 6502 unix style systems hacked together on the web. > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running > Unix? The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think the > PDP-8 could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, > and the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. That came up a few years ago, the pdp8 does not have ample memory to handle Z-code. Ben. * No, not in Octal. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 6 20:34:16 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 18:34:16 -0800 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <4F301D28.31382.2035D0B@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2012 at 18:00, David Griffith wrote: > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running > Unix? The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think > the PDP-8 could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could > handle C, and the answers I get range from "I don't know" to > "Definitely not". Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine > running on the PDP-8. "Running in native mode", I assume. Any Turing-complete processor with enough storage can emulate any other processor, however slowly. So I suppose it's possible to emulate, say, a 68000 on an 8008, given patience that would make Job despair. I think Al K. mentioned a port of of Unix to a Univac 1100 series machine, which probably qualifies both as a crufty and outre implementation (36 bit word, ones' complement). Moving a bit up, Cromemco could run Cromix on a System 3 with ZPU; I think Cromemco claimed that Cromix *was* Unix. A bit later, Onyx ran Unix/Xenix on Z8000. When the 68K came out, everyone was running Unix. --Chuck From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 6 20:42:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:42:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201202070242.VAA15624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running > Unix? The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't > think the PDP-8 could. Any of them could, under emulation if necessary,, given some kind of large-enough storage somehow. But native? The PDP-8 probably could not. The 8080, maybe, barely - it'd be a little like a PDP-11 without split I/D. > I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and the > answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". I'm not sure, but if you relax a few of the modern strictures a little, such as allowing in to be only 12 bits wide and forgetting about floating point and some of the standard library, it probably could. Whether it could run the compiler itself? I'm inclined to doubt. At least if you want builds to finish in finite time. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 6 22:22:51 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 23:22:51 -0500 Subject: Imaging OSI disks References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message: Date: Wed, 01 Feb 2012 17:04:13 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" On 1 Feb 2012 at 16:46, Fred Cisin wrote: > In XenoCopy, I did a few other formats besides CP/M, such as P-System, > "Stand-Alone-BASIC", Coco, etc. But, ONLY ones that could be done with > PC hardware. > > Alas, for the OSI, you will need to build some hardware to read them. > I do NOT know the details, but I've heard that that hardware can be > built around a UART! Could be done with a pulse-timer board, such as a Catweasel pretty easily. Or a small MCU with its built-in UART could also do the trick. Moving heads, etc. is simple. To see what OSI used for data separators and other interface, I believe that somone has a Sam's Photofact online for the C4P showing schematics and timings. --Chuck ------ Reply: Thanks, guys! Now that you've jogged the gray cells I seem to remember something about that 6850 kludge. I was trying to locate a boot disk image for someone and was told that you couldn't do it on a PC so, being from Missouri (Canada) I just wanted to confirm that is indeed the case. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Feb 6 23:51:35 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 21:51:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Feb 6, 12 06:00:28 pm" Message-ID: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? > The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think the PDP-8 > could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and > the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. A while back I asked about PDP-8 Unices. I don't remember any replies, though I seem to remember some existed. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Rational behavior is a choice, not a predestination. -- Kent Paul Dolan ---- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 7 01:09:59 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:09:59 -0800 Subject: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> Chuck writes about reading OSI disks: > Could be done with a pulse-timer board, such as a Catweasel pretty > easily. Yes. > Or a small MCU with its built-in UART could also do the trick. Generally not. While the OSI did use an ordinary asynchronous UART for the FDC data path, it also had additional hardware to do FM encode and decode, so you can't just use a UART in a microcontroller to read the data, unless you implement the FM decode in additional hardware. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 7 01:12:52 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 06 Feb 2012 23:12:52 -0800 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <201202070242.VAA15624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com> <4F304F19.2030205@arachelian.com> <4F3076FB.2080300@brouhaha.com> <201202070242.VAA15624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F30CEF4.4090103@brouhaha.com> Mouse wrote: > Any of them could, under emulation if necessary,, given some kind of > large-enough storage somehow. But native? The PDP-8 probably could > not. The 8080, maybe, barely - it'd be a little like a PDP-11 without > split I/D. The 8080? Not likely. If you're going to compare the 8080 to a PDP-11, it's a register-starved PDP-11 with no indexing. That means the code density is going to be *far* worse than PDP-11 code. A Z80 is much better in that regard. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 04:03:35 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 04:03:35 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: does an 8a count? On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:51 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running > Unix? > > The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think the > PDP-8 > > could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and > > the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > > Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > > A while back I asked about PDP-8 Unices. I don't remember any replies, > though > I seem to remember some existed. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Rational behavior is a choice, not a predestination. -- Kent Paul Dolan > ---- > From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 07:03:33 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 08:03:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> For anyone who doesn't know what these look like -- they're usually >> branded either Logitech or CPC, and have a nine-pin Mini-DIN plug on the > > Quadrature-output mice are getting hard to find now, and many of my > machiens depend on them, so I am keeping all I have ;-(. I _think_ the older Microsoft "Bus Mouse" was a quadrature device. I was able to convert one for use with my NextStation. -- From paco.linux at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 08:41:43 2012 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:41:43 +0100 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F27065D.5070505@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4F27065D.5070505@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I remember my first unix machines, the Iris Indigo, in the Alcuin College. With granite monitor, but 16''. Paco. On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I've had to have a bit of a tidy up, and I have to part with the nice Sony > monitor off one of my SGI INdys. > > Sony GDM-17E21 17" CRT, colour "granite" grey, to match an Indy or O2 > keyboard. Dual inputs: HD15 "VGA" connector and 5 BNC (R/G/B/HS/VS). > > Not used for a few years but should be in good order. I can't ship this > because I can't find a box and packing large enough, so it will have to be > collected from York, UK. It also can't stay here long; it was going to the > electrical waste this weekend before I put my foot down. But it might stay > a few extra days if someone guarantees to collect it. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > -- |_|0|_| |_|_|0| ??? |0|0|0| From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Feb 7 08:02:14 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:02:14 +0100 Subject: Unknown IC on a TMS1000 board In-Reply-To: <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> References: <201202052023.PAA23088@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <201202060501.AAA29458@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20B8AC9A-6C53-47D1-89D4-83B3F29572BD@gmail.com> <201202060631.BAA00592@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F2FA116.702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F312EE6.9040706@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 06.02.2012 10:44, schrieb Eric Smith: > On 02/05/2012 10:31 PM, Mouse wrote: >> But now I'm curious. What sort of performance degradation does PNP >> exhibit? Slower switching? Higher power dissipation? And what's the >> underlying difference behind it, do you know? > If I recall correctly (and I'm no expert on solid-state physics, so I > could easily be wrong), the difference comes about because electron > mobility in silicon is about three times the hole mobility. Wikipedia > says Si at 300K has electron mobility of 1400 cm^2/V*s, vs. hole > mobility of 450 cm^2/V*s. It is an academic issue. True, the electron mobility is different for holes and electrons, but it is not really the dominating factor. Consider Germanium has even higher electron/hole mobility values (3900 vs. 1900 cm^2/Vs) than silicon, but this doesn't make it a better semiconductor material per se. Historically, germanium point contact transistors were mainly PNP for production reasons, this changed to the reverse when mesa and planar transistors based on silicon came up. This is because SiO2 makes up a better insulator than GeO2. For paired PNP/NPN transistors (e.g. complementary transistors on the same die), one could expect a slightly higher h21fe and higher Ic for the NPN part for a given matching Ube curve, but whether this is relevant at all depends on the application. Usually, it isn't relevant, and for single transistors, you can typically find a PNP with the same or better characteristics than a given NPN. This was different, again, historically, with Ge transistors having an fT in the kHz range. And for extreme conditions, e.g. very high frequency or very high power switching, one would nowadays no longer consider bipolar transistors at all, but various types of MOSFETs. -- Holger From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 10:11:04 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:11:04 +0000 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES Message-ID: http://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html Writing a demo for the Nintendo Entertainment System (6502 CPU at 1.79 MHz, 2 Kilobytes of RAM for the CPU, 2 Kilobytes of RAM for the PPU (video)) - in Common Lisp. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 10:36:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:36:57 -0700 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > http://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html > > Writing a demo for the Nintendo Entertainment System (6502 CPU at 1.79 > MHz, 2 Kilobytes of RAM for the CPU, 2 Kilobytes of RAM for the PPU > (video)) - in Common Lisp. Note that LISP is not actually running on the NES. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 10:49:52 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:49:52 +0000 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 February 2012 16:36, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Liam Proven writes: > >> http://ahefner.livejournal.com/20528.html >> >> Writing a demo for the Nintendo Entertainment System (6502 CPU at 1.79 >> MHz, 2 Kilobytes of RAM for the CPU, 2 Kilobytes of RAM for the PPU >> (video)) - in Common Lisp. > > Note that LISP is not actually running on the NES. Hardly, not in 2K. Still an interesting exercise, I thought. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 10:51:24 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:51:24 +0000 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Message-ID: http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html For the HTTP-impaired: Rob Landley rob at landley.net Thu Dec 9 15:45:39 UTC 2010 Previous message: Applet for detecting the filesystem type. Next message: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] On Tuesday 30 November 2010 15:58:00 David Collier wrote: > I see that busybox spreads it's links over these 4 directories. > > Is there a simple rule which decides which directory each link lives > in..... > > For instance I see kill is in /bin and killall in /usr/bin.... I don't > have a grip on what might be the logic for that. You know how Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie created Unix on a PDP-7 in 1969? Well around 1971 they upgraded to a PDP-11 with a pair of RK05 disk packs (1.5 megabytes each) for storage. When the operating system grew too big to fit on the first RK05 disk pack (their root filesystem) they let it leak into the second one, which is where all the user home directories lived (which is why the mount was called /usr). They replicated all the OS directories under there (/bin, /sbin, /lib, /tmp...) and wrote files to those new directories because their original disk was out of space. When they got a third disk, they mounted it on /home and relocated all the user directories to there so the OS could consume all the space on both disks and grow to THREE WHOLE MEGABYTES (ooooh!). Of course they made rules about "when the system first boots, it has to come up enough to be able to mount the second disk on /usr, so don't put things like the mount command /usr/bin or we'll have a chicken and egg problem bringing the system up." Fairly straightforward. Also fairly specific to v6 unix of 35 years ago. The /bin vs /usr/bin split (and all the others) is an artifact of this, a 1970's implementation detail that got carried forward for decades by bureaucrats who never question _why_ they're doing things. It stopped making any sense before Linux was ever invented, for multiple reasons: 1) Early system bringup is the provice of initrd and initramfs, which deals with the "this file is needed before that file" issues. We've already _got_ a temporary system that boots the main system. 2) shared libraries (introduced by the Berkeley guys) prevent you from independently upgrading the /lib and /usr/bin parts. They two partitions have to _match_ or they won't work. This wasn't the case in 1974, back then they had a certain level of independence because everything was statically linked. 3) Cheap retail hard drives passed the 100 megabyte mark around 1990, and partition resizing software showed up somewhere around there (partition magic 3.0 shipped in 1997). Of course once the split existed, some people made other rules to justify it. Root was for the OS stuff you got from upstream and /usr was for your site- local files. Then / was for the stuff you got from AT&T and /usr was for the stuff that your distro like IBM AIX or Dec Ultrix or SGI Irix added to it, and /usr/local was for your specific installation's files. Then somebody decided /usr/local wasn't a good place to install new packages, so let's add /opt! I'm still waiting for /opt/local to show up... Of course given 30 years to fester, this split made some interesting distro- specific rules show up and go away again, such as "/tmp is cleared between reboots but /usr/tmp isn't". (Of course on Ubuntu /usr/tmp doesn't exist and on Gentoo /usr/tmp is a symlink to /var/tmp which now has the "not cleared between reboots" rule. Yes all this predated tmpfs. It has to do with read- only root filesystems, /usr is always going to be read only in that case and /var is where your writable space is, / is _mostly_ read only except for bits of /etc which they tried to move to /var but really symlinking /etc to /var/etc happens more often than not...) Standards bureaucracies like the Linux Foundation (which consumed the Free Standards Group in its' ever-growing accretion disk years ago) happily document and add to this sort of complexity without ever trying to understand why it was there in the first place. 'Ken and Dennis leaked their OS into the equivalent of home because an RK05 disk pack on the PDP-11 was too small" goes whoosh over their heads. I'm pretty sure the busybox install just puts binaries wherever other versions of those binaries have historically gone. There's no actual REASON for any of it anymore. Personally, I symlink /bin /sbin and /lib to their /usr equivalents on systems I put together. Embedded guys try to understand and simplify... Rob -- GPLv3: as worthy a successor as The Phantom Menace, as timely as Duke Nukem Forever, and as welcome as New Coke. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 11:06:47 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:06:47 -0500 Subject: Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split Understanding the bin, sbin, usr/bin , usr/sbin split In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F315A27.5060801@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > 1) Early system bringup is the provice of initrd and initramfs, which deals > with the "this file is needed before that file" issues. We've already _got_ a > temporary system that boots the main system. Only for systems that use such things. There are many that don't. > 2) shared libraries (introduced by the Berkeley guys) prevent you from > independently upgrading the /lib and /usr/bin parts. They two partitions have > to _match_ or they won't work. This wasn't the case in 1974, back then they > had a certain level of independence because everything was statically linked. But then there's /usr/lib and /usr/local/lib and /usr/pkg/lib. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 7 11:46:02 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 09:46:02 -0800 Subject: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> References: , , <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F30F2DA.6602.9765D@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2012 at 23:09, Eric Smith wrote: > Generally not. While the OSI did use an ordinary asynchronous UART > for the FDC data path, it also had additional hardware to do FM encode > and decode, so you can't just use a UART in a microcontroller to read > the data, unless you implement the FM decode in additional hardware. I did mention the one-shot data separator and referred the OP to the C4P schematics. I grovel for forgiveness for not including a circuit diagram and assuming that the poster could fill in the blanks. C'mon, Eric, you know what I was saying. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 12:25:03 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:25:03 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 7, 2012 9:38 AM, "Kevin Reynolds" wrote: > > > I have a license for VMS 5.2 and was considering buying a working system to run it on. My microvax I finally gave up the ghost, and I would rather spend time learning than going through repair at the moment. Do you want to stick with 5.2 or would you be open to running 7.3 with hobbyist licenses? I've tinkered with 7.3 on Q-bus VAX from KA630 to KA692. I haven't done any 5.2 installs and don't know where support for that tops out. What kind of cabinet / backplane do you have? KA650 and KA655 CPUs should be pretty easy to find. 16MB M7622 boards shouldn't be too hard to find either, although if you want 64MB you might be limited by your backplane. -Glen From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 7 13:34:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 11:34:15 -0800 Subject: OT: Pretty cool: Stanford CS classes online for free In-Reply-To: <4F30CEF4.4090103@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <201202070242.VAA15624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4F30CEF4.4090103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F310C37.18219.6C882E@cclist.sydex.com> Just thought I'd alert folks to the Stanford U. lectures starting this month (the page is for natural language processing, but scroll to the bottom for others): http://www.nlp-class.org/ --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 7 13:45:15 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 11:45:15 -0800 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F30CEF4.4090103@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <201202070242.VAA15624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4F30CEF4.4090103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F310ECB.8630.769C61@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2012 at 23:12, Eric Smith wrote: > The 8080? Not likely. If you're going to compare the 8080 to a > PDP-11, it's a register-starved PDP-11 with no indexing. That means > the code density is going to be *far* worse than PDP-11 code. A Z80 > is much better in that regard. It depends largely on how things are implemented. I can well imagine an 8080 running a pcode sort of implmentation, a la Sweet16 (for the 6502). There may be a penalty in execution speed, but code density can be made to be comparable. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 14:05:36 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 20:05:36 -0000 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1D2B37FC8347451881FB76122F5F3482@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: 07 February 2012 02:00 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? > > > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Ray Arachelian wrote: > >> (Waiting for the guys that ran real UNIX on a PDP-8 to > show up and say they > >> rode T-Rex's to school.) > > No, the PDP-8 Unix is one of the modern ones. Only the > guys that ran really > > early Unix rode T-Rexes. > > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer > running Unix? > The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't > think the PDP-8 > could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could > handle C, and > the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > Looking at http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/hist.html It appears that the pdp-8 was never part of real early real Unix, the started on the pdp-7 and then moved to the 11.. > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 14:42:15 2012 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:42:15 -0500 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Hardly, not in 2K. Still an interesting exercise, I thought. The "official" NES memory map provided for up to 16KB of expansion RAM and many later, larger games came with at least 8K on board their cartridges Given that there were several 6502 LISPs (including a subset of InterLISP for Atari 400/800 and a truly compact system for the Acorn BBC Micro that clocked in 5.5 KB of ROM data for the interpreter plus 3 KB of .RAM data with the function definitions), I suspect that an NES implementation would be doable, given a fully loaded flashcart with a full compliment of expansion RAM, though the total user memory would be limited to 18 KB minus whatever space is needed for the function definitions... Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 15:40:02 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 13:40:02 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > > The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. ?This model has a chassis which is 6"x28"x22", and a KD23 CPU (probably faulty). ?It has a maximum RAM capability of 4MB. ?It definitely cannot run netbsd later than 1.61, maybe nothing before that, but I haven't validated... > I figured that I had gone as far as I could go with the hardware anyway. ?If I can't find a good priced replacement in the uv-II or uv-III/III+ line maybe I'll look for a replacement CPU (if thats all that failed). > > I do want to stick with the 5.2 license for the time being, perhaps I will play with my 7.3 hobbyist license when I get bored with it. > Kevin I have never seen a MicroVAX I, but according to this manual the backplane is the same H9278-A that you would find in a BA23: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/610/EK-KD32A-TD-002_MicroVAX_I_CPU_Technical_Description_Aug84.pdf Page 1-11, Backplane - H9278-A Page 1-12, Figure 1-3 MicroVAX I Backplane With a H9278-A you could install either a KA630 with up to 16MB, or a KA650 or KA655 with up to 32MB with DEC memory or up to 64MB with 3rd party memory. The limitation being the (3x) Q22-CD slots in the H9278-A. If you're willing to settle for a KA630 and willing to wait for decent deal you can sometimes find those in the $10-$20 range on eBay. There are some there now for $40 including shipping. Where are you located? You might find someone on this list that has spare KA630/KA650/KA655 boards they are willing to part with for a reasonable exchange. I think I probably have a couple KA630 boards myself that I don't have installed in any systems. I don't know if I have any spare console bulkhead connectors that haven't been corroded by battery leaks. -Glen From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 7 16:15:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:15:33 -0800 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F310ECB.8630.769C61@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <201202070242.VAA15624@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <4F30CEF4.4090103@brouhaha.com> <4F310ECB.8630.769C61@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F31A285.9050705@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It depends largely on how things are implemented. I can well imagine > an 8080 running a pcode sort of implmentation, a la Sweet16 (for the > 6502). There may be a penalty in execution speed, but code density can > be made to be comparable. I thought the discussion was for a native implementation. Certain you can use an 8080 to emulate anything else. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 7 15:55:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:55:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F305A9A.2020800@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 6, 12 10:56:26 pm Message-ID: > And nobody seems to sell 3-button ball mice any more (well, not now I suspect I bought one of the last ball-type mice on the high street when I needed a quick source of a double phototranssitor to fix a aparkjet printer. I still have the remains of that mouse (I never throw anything away...) > optical mice are down to the =A35ea price band), so you can't exactly buy > one of those, remove the PS/2 controller and add a 74LS14 to make a > quadrature mouse. Alas not... There have been quadrature-output optical mice, but those are very rare. And a lot of modern mice have Useless Serial Botch interfaces which are much harder to make interface converters for than PS/2 mise. Oh well... > > > Could you change both parts of the connector (on the machine and the=20 > > mouse/adapter) and use, say, a DE9? > > The PS2MouseMini is basically a PS/2 socket, a bit of cable and a 9-pin > mini-DIN plug, with a microcontroller hidden in the plug. There's > nothing you can really do with it... ARGH!! > > I'd need an in-line 9W mini-DIN socket to make an adapter cable, or a > chassis-mount socket to mod the A3000 to have a second mouse socket on > one side. Hunting around, it appears that 9 pin Mini-DINs are not impossible to find. Farnewll seem to list the cable-mounting plug (bulky, probably not a lot of use to you) and the PCB socket (could you make a PCB to take it?) Digikey _also)_ sell a chassis mount socket, a cable with a moulded plug on oen end and bare wirwes the other [1] and a similar cable with a socket to bare wires. Of ocurse the problem with Digikey for you and I is the shipping nad import cheages but the parts do seem to be available. [1] A friend of mine calls those 'universal connectors'.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 7 15:58:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:58:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F308BA2.2070006@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 6, 12 07:25:38 pm Message-ID: > No No No ... that was T-nix followed later with U when the programers could > club meat, build fire and recite most of the Alphabet*. I guess I'm a total anorak, but there was a TNIX.. [Tektronix Unix, running on a PDP11/23-based development sustem] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 7 16:13:44 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 22:13:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Feb 7, 12 08:03:33 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> For anyone who doesn't know what these look like -- they're usually > >> branded either Logitech or CPC, and have a nine-pin Mini-DIN plug on the > > > > Quadrature-output mice are getting hard to find now, and many of my > > machiens depend on them, so I am keeping all I have ;-(. > > I _think_ the older Microsoft "Bus Mouse" was a quadrature device. I was > able to convert one for use with my NextStation. Yes it was. As were the ST and Amiga mice [1], the Apple Mac mouse used on machiens before ADB, the PERQ 3A mouse [2],the Depraz 83/P mouse (used on the Qhitechapel MG1) and many, many, others. The are probably planty of them around out there if you know where to look, but getting _new_ ones is probably impssible now. [1] About 15 years ago or more, Maplin (a major hobbyist component supplier over here, at least back then) sold clone mice for the ST and Amiga. One had 2 buttons, the other had 3, and they ahd differnet wiring to the DE9 conenctor. I converted several of them to use with other machines by cutting off the moulded connector and soldering the wires to whatever conenctor I needed for the machine I was working on. No, Maplin do not still sell those. [2] But anyone who raids a PERQ 3A (==AGW3300) for parts is goign to be LARTed. That said, I did once find a brnad-new-in-box PERQ 3A keyboard at a radio rally... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 16:39:52 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:39:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? The oldest/weakest I've personally run UNIX on was an 11/24 w/dual RL02 (10MB each) and 2MB of RAM. It's far from a record. If I can find an affordable EAE for my PDP-11/20 and figure out how to sub the swap disk with something other than an unobtanium fixed-head disk, I'd run it there, but that's a long-term project. >> The Z80 definitely did it. UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? >>?I don't think the PDP-8 could. I gotta say that I don't think so either. >> ?I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and >> the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". I am not aware of a C compiler for the PDP-8, but I think it would be exceedingly difficult to write one if were possible at all (I've done a lot of system and embedded code in C and debugged it in assembler, so I know a bit about the syntactical mapping that goes on with C abstractions to the instruction sets of MC68000s, VAXen, PDP-11s, etc). >> Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. I would like that too. I've even thought a lot about it. IMHO, anyone who does it will be writing the Z-machine in PDP-8 assembler, just like what was done for the Z-80 and the 6502 for 1970s and 1980s micros. I _think_ the Mac Z-machine was the first written in C, but I could easily be mistaken on that. I know there were official Z-machines written in C for the Mac and the Amiga, and probably the later ones on the PC (not sure about the early v3 interpreters for DOS). I like Frotz. Frotz is huge compared to the 6K-8K early 8-bit interpreters. It gets more dicey trying to ask a 12-bit machine with 4K pages to emulate a 16-bit virtual machine. I would consider it a win if one could fit the Z-machine code in 2 fields with enough space left over for a 2-page system handler and a 1-page line printer (SCRIPT) handler, using any memory above 8K for object data and game file buffers. Three fields seems plausible. A few years back, I assisted with a modern from-scratch Z-machine effort for ElfOS on the 1802 (that I was showing off at an early VCFmw). On a 32K Spare Time Gizmos Elf2000, once the interpreter was loaded and the object tables were loaded, there was very little room to buffer the game - I think it was on the order of 1-3 512 byte disk blocks. You can fit a v3 game and interpreter in 32K, but to do it in less would probably require a read-write virtual memory scheme on the object data (fortunately, a full boat on a PDP-8 is 32K 12-bit words not 32K 8-bit bytes - that helps too). Strangely enough, I was just thinking about a 12-bit Z-machine this week. Anyone out there have 12-bit coding experience and have time to answer a few questions about OS/8 and file interchange from the 8-bit outer world? -ethan From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Feb 7 16:44:08 2012 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:44:08 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F305A9A.2020800@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F305A9A.2020800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F31A938.8060504@gifford.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 06/02/12 19:25, Tony Duell wrote: >>Quadrature-output mice are getting hard to find now, ... > And nobody seems to sell 3-button ball mice any more (well, not now > optical mice are down to the ?5ea price band), so you can't exactly buy > one of those, remove the PS/2 controller and add a 74LS14 to make a > quadrature mouse. I found a data sheet for one of the early HP mouse chips that said you can! The optical mouse sensor chip had quadtrature outputs in addition to (I think) a PS/2 interface. I may have been old enough that it required an additional chip to add sipport for a scroll wheel. Anyway, I have a couple of mice with that chip in, and one day I'll get around to making a quadrature "tail" to connect to (say) the Atari ST. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 16:45:06 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:45:06 -0500 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > I _think_ the older Microsoft "Bus Mouse" was a quadrature device. ?I was > able to convert one for use with my NextStation. Yes it is, but it has a bizarro round connector with an orientation bar across the bottom. One could steal the mating connector from a Bus Mouse ISA card, or replace the cable. Inside, though, it's like all of its other quadrature-emitting kin. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 7 16:45:56 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:45:56 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F31A285.9050705@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F310ECB.8630.769C61@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F31A285.9050705@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F313924.1470.11C05C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2012 at 14:15, Eric Smith wrote: > I thought the discussion was for a native implementation. Certain you > can use an 8080 to emulate anything else. So, if SWEET16 is emulating something, what is it emulating? To me, it looks like a collection of (native code) subroutines, no matter how Woz pitched it. But on topic, I know that early Unix was not written in C, but has any version of Unix been rewritten in Pascal or Modula-2? --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 7 16:57:04 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:57:04 +0000 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F31AC40.1080208@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/02/2012 21:40, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Kevin > Reynolds wrote: >> >> The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the >> BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. This model >> has a chassis which is 6"x28"x22", and a KD23 CPU (probably >> faulty). > I have never seen a MicroVAX I, but according to this manual the > backplane is the same H9278-A that you would find in a BA23: Is it not just a BA23? I've not seen the machine you're describing, and the tech manual is light on pictures, but the front panel is the standard BA23 front panel and the dimensions are about right. Without the normal skins that make it look like a storage heater, a BA23 is a chassis which contains all the parts and can be rack-mounted and there's a tabletop version as well. I have seen MicroVAX Is in BA23s, they were moderately common, and I have seen one rack-mounted. See pictures in the BA23 manual at http://scandocs.trailing-edge.com/micropdp11-volume_2_enclosures-EK-186AA-MG-001.pdf Pages 1.2, 1.14 show the chassis layout Page 2.2 shows the various enclosures Page 2.20 shows the tabletop appearance; it's just the pedestal turned sideways and with the foot removed. Figure 8.3 in the MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide has a better picture, but I don't know if that's online anywhere. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 7 17:34:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 18:34:49 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F31B519.60504@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2012 04:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:14 AM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> >> The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. This model has a chassis which is 6"x28"x22", and a KD23 CPU (probably faulty). It has a maximum RAM capability of 4MB. It definitely cannot run netbsd later than 1.61, maybe nothing before that, but I haven't validated... >> I figured that I had gone as far as I could go with the hardware anyway. If I can't find a good priced replacement in the uv-II or uv-III/III+ line maybe I'll look for a replacement CPU (if thats all that failed). >> >> I do want to stick with the 5.2 license for the time being, perhaps I will play with my 7.3 hobbyist license when I get bored with it. >> Kevin > > I have never seen a MicroVAX I, but according to this manual the > backplane is the same H9278-A that you would find in a BA23: Most MicroVAX-I machines shipped in BA23s, but I believe they were also available in BA123s. They are not picky; they just require a standard 22-bit Q/CD backplane. I've run them in BA11-SA boxes before. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 7 17:42:11 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 15:42:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120207153710.Q790@shell.lmi.net> > > I _think_ the older Microsoft "Bus Mouse" was a quadrature device. ?I was > > able to convert one for use with my NextStation. On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yes it is, but it has a bizarro round connector with an orientation > bar across the bottom. One could steal the mating connector from a > Bus Mouse ISA card, or replace the cable. Inside, though, it's like > all of its other quadrature-emitting kin. The OLDER Microsoft Bus Mouse used a DE9. The NEWER Microsoft Bus Mouse went to a silly connector. The change was to get people to stop plugging them into video boards, and plugging monitors into the bus mouse board. It happened. A lot. Sometimes carelessness, sometimes the same people who wanted gender changers to interchange serial and parallel ports. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 18:06:26 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:06:26 -0800 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F31A938.8060504@gifford.co.uk> References: <4F305A9A.2020800@philpem.me.uk> <4F31A938.8060504@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 2:44 PM, John Honniball wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >> And nobody seems to sell 3-button ball mice any more (well, not now >> optical mice are down to the ?5ea price band), so you can't exactly buy >> one of those, remove the PS/2 controller and add a 74LS14 to make a >> quadrature mouse. > > > I found a data sheet for one of the early HP mouse chips that > said you can! ?The optical mouse sensor chip had quadtrature > outputs in addition to (I think) a PS/2 interface. I may have > been old enough that it required an additional chip to add > sipport for a scroll wheel. Anyway, I have a couple of mice > with that chip in, and one day I'll get around to making > a quadrature "tail" to connect to (say) the Atari ST. > Looking at some of the data sheets for current Avago Technologies LED/Laser optical sensors it looks like the sensor output is serial (SCLK/SDIO or SCLK/MISO/MOSI) and then there would be microcontroller to connect that to PS/2 or USB or whatever. http://www.avagotech.com/pages/en/navigation_interface_devices/avago_mouse_sensor/ So with optical mice based on those sensors you would have to replace the microcontroller with your own microcontroller to turn the serial data from the sensor into quadrature output. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 7 18:09:36 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:09:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? > > The oldest/weakest I've personally run UNIX on was an 11/24 w/dual > RL02 (10MB each) and 2MB of RAM. It's far from a record. If I can > find an affordable EAE for my PDP-11/20 and figure out how to sub the > swap disk with something other than an unobtanium fixed-head disk, I'd > run it there, but that's a long-term project. > >>> The Z80 definitely did it. > > UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? I don't know the details, but the ones I'm thinking of are Morrow's Micronix and Cromemco's Cromix. Al Kossow knows more about it. >>> Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > > I would like that too. I've even thought a lot about it. IMHO, > anyone who does it will be writing the Z-machine in PDP-8 assembler, > just like what was done for the Z-80 and the 6502 for 1970s and 1980s > micros. I _think_ the Mac Z-machine was the first written in C, but I > could easily be mistaken on that. I know there were official > Z-machines written in C for the Mac and the Amiga, and probably the > later ones on the PC (not sure about the early v3 interpreters for > DOS). I'm thinking ZEMU might be a useful reference for getting a Z-machine running on a PDP-8. I haven't used it yes, but as soon as I can clear off some stuff, I'll see about firing up a PDP-11 emulator. > I like Frotz. Frotz is huge compared to the 6K-8K early 8-bit > interpreters. It gets more dicey trying to ask a 12-bit machine with > 4K pages to emulate a 16-bit virtual machine. I would consider it a > win if one could fit the Z-machine code in 2 fields with enough space > left over for a 2-page system handler and a 1-page line printer > (SCRIPT) handler, using any memory above 8K for object data and game > file buffers. Three fields seems plausible. A few years back, I > assisted with a modern from-scratch Z-machine effort for ElfOS on the > 1802 (that I was showing off at an early VCFmw). On a 32K Spare Time > Gizmos Elf2000, once the interpreter was loaded and the object tables > were loaded, there was very little room to buffer the game - I think > it was on the order of 1-3 512 byte disk blocks. You can fit a v3 > game and interpreter in 32K, but to do it in less would probably > require a read-write virtual memory scheme on the object data > (fortunately, a full boat on a PDP-8 is 32K 12-bit words not 32K 8-bit > bytes - that helps too). > > Strangely enough, I was just thinking about a 12-bit Z-machine this > week. Anyone out there have 12-bit coding experience and have time to > answer a few questions about OS/8 and file interchange from the 8-bit > outer world? Frotz is getting trickier now that I'm trying to reconcile a bunch of Unicode modifications with remaining runnable on DOS. The chief problem is whether zchar is an unsigned char (original) or unsigned short (Unicode modded). When I first applied the changes to Unix Frotz, I found trouble with static strings passed to os_display_string() turning to garbage. Then when I compiled it for DOS, I got garbage on the command line. If you could lend a hand, I'd really appreciate it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 7 18:10:05 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:10:05 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F31BD5D.40301@verizon.net> On 02/07/2012 12:16 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > I have a license for VMS 5.2 and was considering buying a working system to run it on. My microvax I finally gave up the ghost, and I would rather spend time learning than going through repair at the moment.I have many of the parts below from the uvax 1, but who knows whats working and whats not, I need to test. MicroVAX-1 is a oldest Qbus VAX, very limited and slow. You can hope to use maybe 8mb of ram, if you can find it. Also the backplane is small so getting every thing is is hard. The box is basic BA23 but the backplan is unique to uVAX-1. I think the last supporing version was V5 but not later than 5.3. > I have a good configuration for the MicroVAX II to build on, but I was looking at the MicroVAX 3900 since the price disparity is not too significant. The performance of the 3900 is much greater. The UvaxII with KA630 is the first chip VAX and the KA650 is faster but uses different memory. > Unfortunately, I don't have a good hardware build plan for the 3900. I am hoping I can get some good guidance here. > My largest concern is that the hardware is supported by the OS more than anything else.I want to stick with QBUS.I need to have more than 4 async serial ports with modem control (so I can hook it up to other systems) considering the DHV11I need ethernet, DHV11 is not an issue for version though 7.3 and likely later. > thinking DEQNA DEQNA is supported through V5.4 but was being phased out then. Due t isues with DEQNA finding a working one may be problematic. DELQA is preferred for reliability and generally works backward and forward. > Im considering the TK50 tape (I would go tk70 if I knew it was backward compat, I'm just not sure)I dont know which disk controllers to get. The turning point for tk70 is V5.2, or older than V5 tk50, newer either will work.. However TK50 is usable though 7.3. > I'm guessing it should be in the KDA50 with RA82 disks, but I have no idea, just guessing.The standard RX50 floppy.Looking at the VCB02 for video, just as a nicety.And then 64Mb ram. Forget 64MB ram it won't fit in a Qbus unless a very late version 3rd part board. Expect 16mb. RA82 is big as in a 40intall rack minimum, you will need the matching controller. RX50 is norm though with late model Nominal Disk For microVAX is RD54 (several if BA123) or SCSI (RZxx series in 5.25 or 2.5" formats). For that you need a SCSI controller. RQDX3 you can also use RX33 (teac fd55gfr) as its quieter and supports both RX50 format and RX33 (higher density). The RQDXn series controller support floppy and hard disk (MFM). Versions up to VMS V5.4 will fit on RD53 (71mb) though very cramped, RD54 is better at 150mb. Ideal is a 1gb but that is SCSI or SMD interfaces. If you go the VCB make sure you get the harness, pannel insert and the corresponding monitor. I'd go with an VT1200 or VT2000 as you cna support serial line (console) and Xterm. > I have never dealt with the 3900 hardware at all, and I have the hobby funds to procure something that works.Guessing that I can do it for less than $2k even if I had to buy all "new" parts. Obviously I want to limit cost as much as possible, but I would also like to be able to run netbsd on the hardware at a later date if it was interesting to do so. Check on what NetBSD runs on and build that as last I remember they were still challenged on what mass storage devices and video were supported. > I understand that the 3900 can be converted to a microvax III+ with some upgrades, but will it run VMS 5.2? > Any recommendations?Kevin > NO, a MicrovaxII (KA630 and ram) can be upgraded to a MicrovaxIII, the 3900 is a microVAX-III (KA655 cpu and ram) There are three Qbus uVAX cpus KA630(uV-II), KA650(3600) and KA655(3900), they must have the corresponding memory as the memory for the older does not work. The memories have different PMI (over the top bus) and cables plus the later cpus can address more and need faster ram. The uVIII will run V5 or later, a uVAXII will as well. No matter what you want the BA123 or the S-box as you need space for memory, disk, IO, Network, and video. A good box to run V5.2 is any of the 3100 series and the microVAX3100/M76GPX is a good find as it's faster than the uVAXII and smaller/quieter and lower heat output than most Qbus. The GPX had video and serial console. The 3100 series uses SCSI-1 disks so a 1.07GB Baracuda is a great drive for it. The only caveat on disks is the boot drive must be under 1.07GB. The basic BA42 box will hole 2 or three 3.5" format SCSI drives or 2 and a tape. They have external SCSI bus so an external StorageWorks box can add more drives. TZK50F or the SCSI version of the TK70 also can be external. All 3100s support at least several serial lines and some 8 or 16 , VMS running LAT can have network terminals so serial ports on the box are not a must have. All 3100s support 10B2 (coax Ethernet) so you will need a media converter to go from coax to RJ45 (10bt, twisted pair). I have: 3 VAXstation-2000s (VMS5.4 on rd54), (Ultrix4.2 on RD53) and one as a general use formatter. 2 uVAX-IIs the BA23 version is base microVAXII with 12mb and VMX5.4 on it, the other is uVAXII/GPX in BA123 (16mb, 2RD52, 2RZ56 and a RX50, DHV11, TK50, 3plane color video, DELQA, ) I inherited it from DEC when I left during the great bleed. 2 uVAX3100/M76GPX 32MB ram and multiple disks plus serial port option (like DHV11). 6 uVAX3100s basic all have 24or more MB ram, and SCSI disks in them. 4 Storage works boxes with RZ56s in them (2 per). The 3100s and the big uVII can boot as LAVC (Ethernet connected cluster) as VMS V5.4. (thats about 1500W of VAXen running and heating) All of those systems with the exception of the uVAX2000s run V4 though current. The uVAX2000s are so physically small that getting enough disk for later than V5.4 is hard but, they can netboot later versions and use a smaller (31mb) hard disk for swap space. The real question is 3100 pizza box (4"high by 18wide by 16deep) or BA123, Sbox or larger. Anything in a BA23 is way to cramped for boards, power and only two possible slots for disks. The BA123 is fairly large (end table size) but has slots and power that can take up to 5 5.25" sized hard disk, floppy, tape. The backplane is large enough and has the cooling needed for cpu, ram and IO like DHV11. The disks can be RQDX3 (rx50 or 33 floppy and RD5n MFM) or find a CMD SCSI controller and use that with RZ5x, or possibly RZ2x 3.5" format disks. Networking go with DELQA and a AUI to twisted pair converter. I find that one VAX with tape is enough as tape is slow and its accessible through the network if needed. Same for other resources. I rely on a VT320 for serial console or VT1200 for both serial or X-term (DECTerm). As to IO, find a DEC terminal server as LAT or RLAT allows terminals to be remote and still be like they were on a DHV11 (in some cases better), same for serial interface printers. It's possible to use a PC as an Xterm though I've not done that. I have use a PC running PathWorks to connect via network to the VAXen as a terminal. Allison From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 18:28:51 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 00:28:51 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 6 February 2012 01:12, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi all, > > Does anyone have a spare Acorn mouse, either RISC PC/A5000 (rounded > profile) or Archimedes (angular brick) style? > > I can live with broken switches (got a bag of those!) and "it needs a > good clean", but the motion sensors need to work, and it must have a > mouse ball and the cover for the "ball pit". > > For anyone who doesn't know what these look like -- they're usually > branded either Logitech or CPC, and have a nine-pin Mini-DIN plug on the > end of the wire. Colour is almost always cream (or murky yellow if > they've been in the sun) or white for the CPC ones. > > Basically I need one for my A3000... the blasted PS2Mouse adapter > doesn't fit! > > Alternatively if anyone has a chassis-mount 9-pin mini-DIN socket in > their spares box, that'll do just as well (the A3000 has pads on the > motherboard for an 'alternate' mouse port.. I just need the connector) Reading the thread, clearly this is quite hard work to do and new old Acorn mice are expensive. Have you thought of asking in any of the online Acorn communities? Some are still quite lively. There's the Icon Bar, ROOL, and of course the news:comp.sys.acorn hierarchy... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 18:33:09 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 00:33:09 +0000 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7 February 2012 20:42, Michael Kerpan wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Hardly, not in 2K. Still an interesting exercise, I thought. > > The "official" NES memory map provided for up to 16KB of expansion RAM > and many later, larger games came with at least 8K on board their > cartridges Did you RTFA, at all? :?) He does mention that. > Given that there were several 6502 LISPs (including a > subset of InterLISP for Atari 400/800 and a truly compact system for > the Acorn BBC Micro that clocked in 5.5 KB of ROM data for the > interpreter plus 3 KB of .RAM data with the function definitions) I was not aware of that. Impressive stuff. > , I > suspect that an NES implementation would be doable, given a fully > loaded flashcart with a full compliment of expansion RAM, though the > total user memory would be limited to 18 KB minus whatever space is > needed for the function definitions... You should comment and propose this. :?) Any OpenID will allow you to comment on Livejournal without an account. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 7 18:36:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:36:02 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F31BD5D.40301@verizon.net> References: <4F31BD5D.40301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F31C372.2030606@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2012 07:10 PM, allison wrote: >> I have a license for VMS 5.2 and was considering buying a working >> system to run it on. My microvax I finally gave up the ghost, and I >> would rather spend time learning than going through repair at the >> moment.I have many of the parts below from the uvax 1, but who knows >> whats working and whats not, I need to test. > > MicroVAX-1 is a oldest Qbus VAX, very limited and slow. You can hope to > use maybe 8mb of ram, if you can find it. 4MB max on MicroVAX-I, the memory is straight on the Qbus, no PMI. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 7 18:37:29 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:37:29 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> On 02/07/2012 05:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? > The oldest/weakest I've personally run UNIX on was an 11/24 w/dual > RL02 (10MB each) and 2MB of RAM. It's far from a record. If I can > find an affordable EAE for my PDP-11/20 and figure out how to sub the > swap disk with something other than an unobtanium fixed-head disk, I'd > run it there, but that's a long-term project. > 11/23 (KDF11A not KFD11B or later 11/23) with 256K and a RL02 running unixV6. >>> The Z80 definitely did it. > UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? > Yes, UZI unix, Look it up in google. >>> I don't think the PDP-8 could. > I gotta say that I don't think so either. > It's not impossible though you might have a hardware abstraction to deal with recursion and addressing. But it will not be pretty. >>> I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and >>> the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > I am not aware of a C compiler for the PDP-8, but I think it would be > exceedingly difficult to write one if were possible at all (I've done > a lot of system and embedded code in C and debugged it in assembler, > so I know a bit about the syntactical mapping that goes on with C > abstractions to the instruction sets of MC68000s, VAXen, PDP-11s, > etc). > Think of C as a macro assembler. The PDP-8 was generic that it could do all of the possible tasks. The compiler would have to be smart but they write in C for PIC micros. >>> Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > I would like that too. I've even thought a lot about it. IMHO, > anyone who does it will be writing the Z-machine in PDP-8 assembler, > just like what was done for the Z-80 and the 6502 for 1970s and 1980s > micros. I _think_ the Mac Z-machine was the first written in C, but I > could easily be mistaken on that. I know there were official > Z-machines written in C for the Mac and the Amiga, and probably the > later ones on the PC (not sure about the early v3 interpreters for > DOS). > Its likely doable but it would take work. Keep in mind that an -8 maxes memory at 32Kwords. that means bigger will have to have a mechanism for swapping to storage. Keep in mind the Z80 did not ahve many of the addressing modes of C. > I like Frotz. Frotz is huge compared to the 6K-8K early 8-bit > interpreters. It gets more dicey trying to ask a 12-bit machine with > 4K pages to emulate a 16-bit virtual machine. You can hide all that in the virtual machine. You pay the price for speed and there isn't much there. > I would consider it a > win if one could fit the Z-machine code in 2 fields with enough space > left over for a 2-page system handler and a 1-page line printer > (SCRIPT) handler, using any memory above 8K for object data and game > file buffers. Three fields seems plausible. Also consider swapping memory as back when for large PDP-8 programs that was the norm. Something like RS08 disk was the best game for that as you could spool memory to disk or back at data break rates (around 6us/word). > A few years back, I > assisted with a modern from-scratch Z-machine effort for ElfOS on the > 1802 (that I was showing off at an early VCFmw). On a 32K Spare Time > Gizmos Elf2000, once the interpreter was loaded and the object tables > were loaded, there was very little room to buffer the game - I think > it was on the order of 1-3 512 byte disk blocks. You can fit a v3 > game and interpreter in 32K, but to do it in less would probably > require a read-write virtual memory scheme on the object data > (fortunately, a full boat on a PDP-8 is 32K 12-bit words not 32K 8-bit > bytes - that helps too). That and if you do text in six bit ascii you get two cars to a word. > Strangely enough, I was just thinking about a 12-bit Z-machine this > week. Anyone out there have 12-bit coding experience and have time to > answer a few questions about OS/8 and file interchange from the 8-bit > outer world? > Some here, not a lot as I've not run OS/8 in a long time. FYI a suitable dev system would be a DECmateII or III running OS278. The biggest thing to watch for in PDP8 code is recursion as you need a software stack and handler to preserve data/addresses. The DECmates had the 6120 and that implemented IOTs to create a address and data stack( hardware can be built to do that in any omnibus 8). The unique PDP-8 IO made doing things like that more common than would be guessed. Allison From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 7 18:42:34 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 19:42:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F31BD5D.40301@verizon.net> References: <4F31BD5D.40301@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201202080042.TAA02536@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There are three Qbus uVAX cpus KA630(uV-II), KA650(3600) and > KA655(3900), they must have the corresponding memory [...] There's also the KA620, which is the same as the KA630 as far as memory interfaces go. However, it won't run VMS (indeed, that's sort of the point of it). Back in the day, the KA620 was hard to find. I daresay these days it's even harder to find, though whether that's just because all MicroVAX hardware has gotten rarer or not I'm not competent to say. Fortunately, there's little reason to want one unless you're a completist...or have some OS software that expects a KA620 but can't tolerate a KA630 (I don't know of any such software, but it may exist.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rivie at ridgenet.net Tue Feb 7 18:44:59 2012 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 16:44:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> The Z80 definitely did it. > > UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? http://www.dougbraun.com/uzi.html -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Tue Feb 7 18:51:10 2012 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:51:10 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20120207194949.024e6c90@verizon.net> Kevin; I have a MicroVax 3400 and MicroVax 4000-300 that I want to get rid of. I'm in the Washington DC area. Any interest? Doug At 12:16 PM 2/7/2012, you wrote: >I have a license for VMS 5.2 and was considering buying a working >system to run it on. My microvax I finally gave up the ghost, and I >would rather spend time learning than going through repair at the >moment.I have many of the parts below from the uvax 1, but who knows >whats working and whats not, I need to test. >I have a good configuration for the MicroVAX II to build on, but I >was looking at the MicroVAX 3900 since the price disparity is not >too significant. >Unfortunately, I don't have a good hardware build plan for the >3900. I am hoping I can get some good guidance here. >My largest concern is that the hardware is supported by the OS more >than anything else.I want to stick with QBUS.I need to have more >than 4 async serial ports with modem control (so I can hook it up to >other systems) considering the DHV11I need ethernet, thinking >DEQNAIm considering the TK50 tape (I would go tk70 if I knew it was >backward compat, I'm just not sure)I dont know which disk >controllers to get. I'm guessing it should be in the KDA50 with >RA82 disks, but I have no idea, just guessing.The standard RX50 >floppy.Looking at the VCB02 for video, just as a nicety.And then 64Mb ram. >I have never dealt with the 3900 hardware at all, and I have the >hobby funds to procure something that works.Guessing that I can do >it for less than $2k even if I had to buy all "new" >parts. Obviously I want to limit cost as much as possible, but I >would also like to be able to run netbsd on the hardware at a later >date if it was interesting to do so. >I understand that the 3900 can be converted to a microvax III+ with >some upgrades, but will it run VMS 5.2? >Any recommendations?Kevin > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 19:11:29 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:11:29 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <201202080042.TAA02536@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F31BD5D.40301@verizon.net> <201202080042.TAA02536@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Mouse wrote: > > There's also the KA620, which is the same as the KA630 as far as memory > interfaces go. ?However, it won't run VMS (indeed, that's sort of the > point of it). > Back when Boeing Surplus was still open in the Seattle area there were a couple of rtVAX BA213 boxes (I believe they were KA620s) in there one day for something like $50. I didn't know much about VAX systems at the time and didn't grab them when I had the chance but wish I did now. If you want to do anything with Q-bus systems the BA213 boxes are nice to work with, but not so great if you have to deal with shipping them. -Glen From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 7 19:15:35 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:15:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser >> wrote: >>>> The Z80 definitely did it. >> >> UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? > > http://www.dougbraun.com/uzi.html On the P112 Sourceforge page you can download bootable images of UZI-180 for the P112. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 7 19:20:22 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 01:20:22 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F31CDD6.3030401@philpem.me.uk> On 08/02/12 00:28, Liam Proven wrote: > Reading the thread, clearly this is quite hard work to do and new old > Acorn mice are expensive. The big problem with the A3000 is the under-keyboard mouse socket. You need a mouse with a thin cable and a small connector, otherwise you're stuffed. As I recall, the A3010 and A3020 either had a larger mouse socket "tray" to accommodate larger connectors, or had the connector on the panel. I'm leaning towards the latter, but can't check because the A3010 is in the garage feeling sorry for itself (only 1MB RAM, the A3000 has 2MB, the RISC PC has 30-something though I could swear it had 64). > Have you thought of asking in any of the online Acorn communities? > Some are still quite lively. There's the Icon Bar, ROOL, and of course > the news:comp.sys.acorn hierarchy... Huh, I thought Iconbar had closed down. ROOL I knew about (I've been playing with RO6 on a Beagleboard-XM but paying muchos cashola for the C compiler seems like folly), and I thought the CSA tree had died a death now most ISPs have canned their Usenet offerings. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 19:42:09 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 01:42:09 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F31CDD6.3030401@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> <4F31CDD6.3030401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 8 February 2012 01:20, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 08/02/12 00:28, Liam Proven wrote: >> Reading the thread, clearly this is quite hard work to do and new old >> Acorn mice are expensive. > > The big problem with the A3000 is the under-keyboard mouse socket. You > need a mouse with a thin cable and a small connector, otherwise you're > stuffed. Ahh, right. Nothing else uses the same pinouts so that an extension lead would work - as an SVideo one works for ADB? > As I recall, the A3010 and A3020 either had a larger mouse socket "tray" > to accommodate larger connectors, or had the connector on the panel. I'm > leaning towards the latter, but can't check because the A3010 is in the > garage feeling sorry for itself (only 1MB RAM, the A3000 has 2MB, the > RISC PC has 30-something though I could swear it had 64). > >> Have you thought of asking in any of the online Acorn communities? >> Some are still quite lively. There's the Icon Bar, ROOL, and of course >> the news:comp.sys.acorn hierarchy... > > Huh, I thought Iconbar had closed down. Nope. Not very active, mind, but still trickling along. Drobe closed down & editor Chris Williams is now at the Reg. > ROOL I knew about (I've been > playing with RO6 on a Beagleboard-XM RO6? I thought only RO5 ran on them? > but paying muchos cashola for the C > compiler seems like folly), Well quite. > and I thought the CSA tree had died a death > now most ISPs have canned their Usenet offerings. Not quite. Google Groups is free for all, for instance. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 7 19:45:00 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 17:45:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> <4F31CDD6.3030401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Feb 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> and I thought the CSA tree had died a death >> now most ISPs have canned their Usenet offerings. > > Not quite. Google Groups is free for all, for instance. Please don't reccomend people use Google Groups. There are real Usenet servers to be had for free as long as you don't care about the binary newsgroups. There are albasani.net and eternal-september.org which readily spring to mind. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 20:20:48 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:20:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 8:03 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> I _think_ the older Microsoft "Bus Mouse" was a quadrature device. ?I was >> able to convert one for use with my NextStation. > > Yes it is, but it has a bizarro round connector with an orientation > bar across the bottom. One could steal the mating connector from a > Bus Mouse ISA card, or replace the cable. Inside, though, it's like > all of its other quadrature-emitting kin. I took the easy way out and grafted another cable into it. The mouse was designed to plug into an inline converter or some sort originally. -- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 7 21:02:44 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 19:02:44 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F31E5D4.40307@mail.msu.edu> On 2/7/2012 2:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? > The oldest/weakest I've personally run UNIX on was an 11/24 w/dual > RL02 (10MB each) and 2MB of RAM. It's far from a record. If I can > find an affordable EAE for my PDP-11/20 and figure out how to sub the > swap disk with something other than an unobtanium fixed-head disk, I'd > run it there, but that's a long-term project. > I haven't (yet) personally run it, but Accent (the grandfather of Mach) on the PERQ workstation supported multiple personalities, amongst them UNIX. Given the speed of Accent on my PERQ I cannot imagine that UNIX running as a subsystem under it would win any speed contests. (The PERQ's microcode engine ran at about 5Mhz, and it was designed to execute bytecode instructions quickly. The bytecode throughput for Pascal was about 1 million "q-codes" per second, I don't know if the bytecodes for the UNIX/C side of things on Accent was similarly fast...) (I also need to give PNX a try one of these days, I have a spare SA-4000 drive that I plan to use for this purpose when I get the nerve to swap it out...) There's an interesting writeup on the trials and tribulations of porting UNIX to the PERQ (and a lot of other interesting PERQ stuff) here, if anyone's interested: http://www.chilton-computing.org.uk/acd/sus/perq_history/part_5/c21.htm - Josh From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 21:03:57 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:03:57 -0700 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Liam Proven writes: > On 7 February 2012 16:36, Richard wrote: > > > > Note that LISP is not actually running on the NES. > > Hardly, not in 2K. Still an interesting exercise, I thought. Yes, I liked the idea, just thought the subject was a little confusing for anyone who didn't look at the article. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 7 21:05:06 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:05:06 -0700 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Kerpan writes: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > Hardly, not in 2K. Still an interesting exercise, I thought. > > The "official" NES memory map provided for up to 16KB of expansion RAM > and many later, larger games came with at least 8K on board their > cartridges Given that there were several 6502 LISPs (including a > subset of InterLISP for Atari 400/800 and a truly compact system for > the Acorn BBC Micro that clocked in 5.5 KB of ROM data for the > interpreter plus 3 KB of .RAM data with the function definitions), I > suspect that an NES implementation would be doable, given a fully > loaded flashcart with a full compliment of expansion RAM, though the > total user memory would be limited to 18 KB minus whatever space is > needed for the function definitions... Yeah, but no way in hell would it be Common LISP. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 7 21:20:13 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 19:20:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120207191737.B12590@shell.lmi.net> > >>> So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? > > The oldest/weakest I've personally run UNIX on was an 11/24 w/dual > > RL02 (10MB each) and 2MB of RAM. It's far from a record. If I can > > find an affordable EAE for my PDP-11/20 and figure out how to sub the > > swap disk with something other than an unobtanium fixed-head disk, I'd > > run it there, but that's a long-term project. > >>> The Z80 definitely did it. > > UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? > On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, David Griffith wrote: > I don't know the details, but the ones I'm thinking of are Morrow's > Micronix and Cromemco's Cromix. Al Kossow knows more about it. There were numerous "Unix-like" OS's available. Xenix, even when sold by MICROS~1 (for 5160), seemed to actually BE Unix, less the trademark. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 7 21:39:41 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 03:39:41 +0000 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20120207194949.024e6c90@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 2/7/12 4:51 PM, "Douglas Taylor" wrote: >Kevin; > >I have a MicroVax 3400 and MicroVax 4000-300 that I want to get rid >of. I'm in the Washington DC area. Any interest? > >Doug The 4000/300 is a really nice machine - I have one, running 7.3 - but I'll warn you, it's heavy. -- Ian From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 22:29:14 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 04:29:14 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: <4F2F2919.4020901@philpem.me.uk> <4F31CDD6.3030401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On 8 February 2012 01:45, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 8 Feb 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> and I thought the CSA tree had died a death >>> now most ISPs have canned their Usenet offerings. >> >> >> Not quite. Google Groups is free for all, for instance. > > Please don't reccomend people use Google Groups. ?There are real Usenet > servers to be had for free as long as you don't care about the binary > newsgroups. ?There are albasani.net and eternal-september.org which readily > spring to mind. What's so wrong with GGroups? It works, on any machine with a decent web browser, anywhere; I can use it on my Windows boxes, under my default OS of Linux and on my Macs. I have not run a local email client in *years* - I don't really want to have to run a local news client, either. GReader is also pretty much the handiest RSS-type news reader I have, as well - nothing can match the cross-platform abilities of web-based apps. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 7 23:12:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 00:12:59 -0500 Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74C76FAF-A171-4A80-B044-106923B93DA2@gmail.com> On Feb 7, 2012, at 3:42 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 11:49 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Hardly, not in 2K. Still an interesting exercise, I thought. > > The "official" NES memory map provided for up to 16KB of expansion RAM > and many later, larger games came with at least 8K on board their > cartridges Given that there were several 6502 LISPs (including a > subset of InterLISP for Atari 400/800 and a truly compact system for > the Acorn BBC Micro that clocked in 5.5 KB of ROM data for the > interpreter plus 3 KB of .RAM data with the function definitions), I > suspect that an NES implementation would be doable, given a fully > loaded flashcart with a full compliment of expansion RAM, though the > total user memory would be limited to 18 KB minus whatever space is > needed for the function definitions... Well. The RAM is limited to whatever you can bankswitch. The NES memory map has a 32K region set aside for cartridge ROM (plus a bit for RAM, generally used in games for battery-backed SRAM for saving games) but a few games went up to a meg of ROM (Dragon Warrior IV comes to mind). There's no practical limit (for ROM or RAM) aside from how much overhead you want your bank switching function to consume; all the bank switching does is selectively swap address pins in based on a few MSBs of the address on the cartridge pins. Related is the story on folklore.org (entitled "We'll See About That") about extending Apple's 16K "language card" (which bank-switched in 16K of RAM over the ROM address space) to 32K by extending the bank switching bits. It's not a huge technical challenge. - Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 8 00:01:54 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 23:01:54 -0700 Subject: [blog] Recent Additions to BitSavers Message-ID: Based on our recent discussion of ISC and Intecolor terminals and noticing some recent additions to BitSavers prompted me to write this blog post for the Computer Graphics Museum blog: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 8 00:47:31 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2012 22:47:31 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F313924.1470.11C05C7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F310ECB.8630.769C61@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F31A285.9050705@brouhaha.com> <4F313924.1470.11C05C7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F321A83.7040404@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > So, if SWEET16 is emulating something, what is it emulating? It's emulating a virtual machine. Certainly one can't plausibly claim that a chunk of Sweet16 code is native 6502 code. From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Feb 7 11:16:18 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 10:16:18 -0700 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a license for VMS 5.2 and was considering buying a working system to run it on. My microvax I finally gave up the ghost, and I would rather spend time learning than going through repair at the moment.I have many of the parts below from the uvax 1, but who knows whats working and whats not, I need to test. I have a good configuration for the MicroVAX II to build on, but I was looking at the MicroVAX 3900 since the price disparity is not too significant. Unfortunately, I don't have a good hardware build plan for the 3900. I am hoping I can get some good guidance here. My largest concern is that the hardware is supported by the OS more than anything else.I want to stick with QBUS.I need to have more than 4 async serial ports with modem control (so I can hook it up to other systems) considering the DHV11I need ethernet, thinking DEQNAIm considering the TK50 tape (I would go tk70 if I knew it was backward compat, I'm just not sure)I dont know which disk controllers to get. I'm guessing it should be in the KDA50 with RA82 disks, but I have no idea, just guessing.The standard RX50 floppy.Looking at the VCB02 for video, just as a nicety.And then 64Mb ram. I have never dealt with the 3900 hardware at all, and I have the hobby funds to procure something that works.Guessing that I can do it for less than $2k even if I had to buy all "new" parts. Obviously I want to limit cost as much as possible, but I would also like to be able to run netbsd on the hardware at a later date if it was interesting to do so. I understand that the 3900 can be converted to a microvax III+ with some upgrades, but will it run VMS 5.2? Any recommendations?Kevin From tpresence at hotmail.com Tue Feb 7 13:14:38 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 12:14:38 -0700 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: > Do you want to stick with 5.2 or would you be open to running 7.3 with > hobbyist licenses? I've tinkered with 7.3 on Q-bus VAX from KA630 to KA692. > I haven't done any 5.2 installs and don't know where support for that tops > out. > > What kind of cabinet / backplane do you have? KA650 and KA655 CPUs should > be pretty easy to find. 16MB M7622 boards shouldn't be too hard to find > either, although if you want 64MB you might be limited by your backplane. > > -Glen The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. ?This model has a chassis which is 6"x28"x22", and a KD23 CPU (probably faulty). ?It has a maximum RAM capability of 4MB. ?It definitely cannot run netbsd later than 1.61, maybe nothing before that, but I haven't validated... I figured that I had gone as far as I could go with the hardware anyway. ?If I can't find a good priced replacement in the uv-II or uv-III/III+ line maybe I'll look for a replacement CPU (if thats all that failed). I do want to stick with the 5.2 license for the time being, perhaps I will play with my 7.3 hobbyist license when I get bored with it. Kevin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 7 13:48:32 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 11:48:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1328644112.95691.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I think Richard's point was that the title belies the fact that the NES itself is not being programmed, but rather an emulator is being implemented in LISP. I'm all for programming game consoles in any and every language, including PROLOG and Simula-67. Yay. The NES obviously can be expanded via the cartridge port. It seems some sort of bank switching would be necessary (as is the cast on every early peecee (internally) anyway). I find emulation in general a fascinating topic. It seems that not too many people on this list are familiar w/the mechanics of creating an emulator (as of a couple of years ago. I asked a question or 2 and got no reply. Perhaps my queries were regarded as white noise, and were dispensed w/accordingly. Don't know. Anyone? bzzzzzzzz). There seems to be a significant distinction made between emulation and virtualisation. They're similar of course, in both cases code is being utilized to mimic on the host processor the results that would be produced on the targeted system. It seems that in a lot of cases it should be a fairly strait forward process. But even in such cases where there is a more or less 1 to 1 correspondence between the host's ops and and targeted system's ops, it behooves the programmer to recreated every last detail of the targeted system, down to gliches and whatnot. It seems this approach is rather fundamental to virtually (no pun intended) all low and much higher level exercise. If a firmware patch is needed to implement a new feature (such as running flash on a cheap Taiwanese tablet knockoff, where earlier it would refuse or crash the machine), how is this not in a broad sense "emulation" of a sort? I presently have no interest in LISP. Perhaps somewhere down the road. Too much else to on the playlist (including brushing up on my C, bought a cheap tablet to facilitate my endeavor even). It's a crazy project for sure. Interesting. Thanks for the link. I became aware of the MESS project and porting MAME to Linux and other plats. It seems w/all that going on in my life I can barely sustain interest in a particular subject for more then a week (Advance ADD doesn't help either). But seeing stuff like this helps. A question I asked sometime ago was is emulation basically just parsing? Anyone. Bzzzzzzzzzzz. Perhaps that's too simple a description, but it would it seems describe what is taking place (and in that sense all assembling/compiling/translating is simply that, parsing). I also had asked if it were practical to implement an emulator for something _like_ an ibm pc using v86 mode as a skeleton. And being that v86 mode is a stripped down emulator running in microcode, wouldn't such an approach make the product faster? From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Feb 8 01:24:38 2012 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Tue, 7 Feb 2012 23:24:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, allison wrote: > On 02/07/2012 05:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser >> wrote: >>>> I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and >>>> the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". >> I am not aware of a C compiler for the PDP-8, but I think it would be >> exceedingly difficult to write one if were possible at all > Think of C as a macro assembler. The PDP-8 was generic that it could do > all of the possible tasks. The compiler would have to be smart but they > write > in C for PIC micros. While not exactly C, I've done a bit of fiddling with a byte code derived from the venerable Small-C compiler. The compiler figures things out in terms of a simple single-stack machine. There is one module in the compiler that takes the single-stack primitives and outputs assembly code for the target processor. It's possible to replace that module with one that outputs the primitives, then make an back end to turn them into code for something else. By that means, I made a variant of Small C that could compile for a variety processors ranging from from Z80 to VAX. I reworked them a bit to come up with something that could describe a simple FORTH. *That* I made go on stuff ranging from PDP-8 to VAX. Since the low-level words were written in the primitives derived from Small C, the same source could be compiled for any of the processors I ran it on. Essentially, a byte code. Of course, the PDP-8 version used 12-bit bytes. In the PDP-8 variant, each bytecode consisted of a JMS I Z instruction. Page zero was loaded up with JMP instructions that transferred to the routines that implement each primitive. For what it's worth (which is not much), it can be found here: http://anachronda.homeunix.com:8000/~rivie/third/ I've only put up the PDP-8 and Z80 versions, but I've also done a handful of other processors; enough to wring out byte-order and word-size dependencies. The PDP-8 version was done as a degenerate case involving one-byte cells. I used long symbol names in the PDP-8 source, so you'll need a variant of Doug Jone's PAL assembler that I've tweaked to take them. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Feb 8 01:40:02 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 08:40:02 +0100 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <4F308BA2.2070006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20120208084002.3cef271b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 7 Feb 2012 21:58:17 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I guess I'm a total anorak, but there was a TNIX.. > > [Tektronix Unix, running on a PDP11/23-based development sustem] I own one of those and BTW I am looking for software for it. The hard disk needs a fsck(8) and this is a stand alone tool. Unfortunately I didn't get those floppies with the machine. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Feb 8 03:23:42 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:23:42 +0100 (CET) Subject: Understanding the bin, [...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Feb 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > You know how Ken Thompson and Dennis Ritchie created Unix on a PDP-7 in 1969? > Well around 1971 they upgraded to a PDP-11 with a pair of RK05 disk packs (1.5 > megabytes each) for storage. My RK05 packs have 2.34 MB (2400 kB to be precise) each, so ... > the user directories to there so the OS could consume all the space on both > disks and grow to THREE WHOLE MEGABYTES (ooooh!). ... this would have grown to almost five MB. Actually, I have a stripped-down installation of 2.9BSD on one single RK05 pack including swap space. Christian From popeye at p-t-b.com Wed Feb 8 07:24:03 2012 From: popeye at p-t-b.com (Popeye Theophilus Barrnumb) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 05:24:03 -0800 Subject: Does anyone want to buy an Elf 2000 ??? Message-ID: <4F327773.8070509@p-t-b.com> If you would like the opportunity to build your very own Elf 2000, please join the waiting list! If enough people join Bob might make up another batch! Scroll down to the bottom of this webpage to where it says "Sold Out!" and then click on the "Join the waiting list" link below it: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm -- Quinn From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 09:23:42 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:23:42 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. Nope. Bog-standard BA23 or BA123. There are later cabinets for MicroVAX IIIs, but they are models like the BA213. You can take a MicroPDP-11/23 and re-stuff it as a MicroVAX-I or a MicroVAX-II, though you will probably need different peripherals (I don't think the DLV11/DLV1J is supported under VMS, for example, though the RLV12 is). The uVAX-I has a dual-board CPU that must be installed in slots 1-2 of a backplane with CD slots, and the memory sits _on_ the Qbus, so with 22 address bits, you top out at 4MB. The later MicroVAXen fit on a single board and use PMI memory (different boards, matched to the type of CPU). I don't know the MicroVAX III memory max off the top of my head (after my time), but the uVAX-II has 1MB on-board and can take, IIRC, 12MB in the first two slots. Besides memory, the big limitation I remember from those days about upgrades was disk size. The uVAX-I shipped with the RQDX1 which did not support disks over 30MB, I think. (RD52 but not RD53, IIRC). The RQDX3 supports DEC disks up to the RD54 (154MB) and non-DEC disks, though it can be tricky to get the Field Service formatter which can label non-standard disks. Even so, MFM disks top out pretty low. I think I managed to fit VMS 6.0 on an RD54 on a 9MB uVAX-II, but I had to leave something behind (like the HELP files). Using an MSCP SCSI controller bypasses this dance and leaves memory as the critical resource. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 09:38:23 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:38:23 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F3296EF.5090006@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> The Z80 definitely did it. > > UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? Wasn't there (at least at one time) a Minix port? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 10:08:07 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:08:07 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F329DE7.1010003@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 10:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The uVAX-I has a dual-board CPU that must be installed in slots 1-2 of > a backplane with CD slots, and the memory sits _on_ the Qbus, so with > 22 address bits, you top out at 4MB. The later MicroVAXen fit on a > single board and use PMI memory (different boards, matched to the type > of CPU). I don't know the MicroVAX III memory max off the top of my > head (after my time), but the uVAX-II has 1MB on-board and can take, > IIRC, 12MB in the first two slots. The MicroVAX-II maxes out at 16MB. The onboard memory adds to whatever you put in the second and third slots, but if you put two 8MB boards (or a third-party 16MB board, DEC didn't make one but I think Chrislin did, and perhaps Dataram) the onboard 1MB is disabled. That's why we see MicroVAX-IIs with odd amounts of memory like 5MB, 9MB, 13MB, but maxed-out ones have 16MB. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 8 10:18:50 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:18:50 -0700 Subject: Understanding the bin, [...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > Actually, I have a stripped-down installation of 2.9BSD on one single RK05 > pack including swap space. How much space is left in the filesystem after you add reasonable swap space? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 8 10:38:42 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:38:42 -0700 Subject: Emulation vs. Simulation (was: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES) In-Reply-To: <1328644112.95691.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1328644112.95691.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1328644112.95691.YahooMailNeo at web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > I think Richard's point was that the title belies the fact that the NES > itself is not being programmed, but rather an emulator is being implemented > in LISP. It's not an emulator. He wrote a 6502 compiler in LISP. He writes his demo in LISP that when executed compiles to the native instruction set for the NES and presumably writes that out to a file. I admit to having skimmed the article so I didn't read every little detail of how he gets the output of his compiler onto the NES. > I find emulation in general a fascinating topic. It seems that not too many > people on this list are familiar w/the mechanics of creating an emulator > (as of a couple of years ago. I asked a question or 2 and got no reply. > Perhaps my queries were regarded as white noise, and were dispensed > w/accordingly. Don't know. Anyone? bzzzzzzzz). Responses are spotty. When people go on and on for 50 or 100 messages on items that are off-topic, people basically stop paying attention to the entire list. Add to that people's penchant for *not* adjusting the subject line to account for topic drift and I suspect that many people, like me, skim the subject lines and delete en-masse when it doesn't seem interesting. I don't have enough time to read every message on the hope that it might contain something interesting when it's just another meandering topic thread from the Usual Suspects. > There seems to be a > significant distinction made between emulation and virtualisation. Most definitely. > [...] it > behooves the programmer to recreated every last detail of the targeted > system, down to gliches and whatnot. Unfortunately for truly authentic simulations, the glitches aren't often documented and must be discovered the hard way. I would imagine that it's a small number of people that have the drive and patience to faithfully reproduce all the glitches in an obscure system. For something like the C=64, sure, because you've got a community of enthusiasts to keep you motivated, but for something like the Nuclear Data ND-812? I doubt it. > It seems this approach is rather fundamental to virtually (no pun intended) > all low and much higher level exercise. If a firmware patch is needed to > implement a new feature (such as running flash on a cheap Taiwanese tablet > knockoff, where earlier it would refuse or crash the machine), how is this > not in a broad sense "emulation" of a sort? Sorry, you lost me there. Firmware patches aren't any sort of emulation or simulation. > A question I asked sometime ago was is emulation basically just parsing? No, it's not. Parsing is just turning raw text into a data structure. It's the first part of a compiler or interpreter. You could view emulation as having a "parse" of the binary instruction stream, but typically decoding the binary instruction stream is simple enough that it's not considered parsing. In a processor there would be circuitry dedicated to this function and it's generally called "instruction decode" and that's what people writing emulators generally call it as well. > Anyone. Bzzzzzzzzzzz. Perhaps that's too simple a description, but it would > it seems describe what is taking place (and in that sense all > assembling/compiling/translating is simply that, parsing) No, no, no. Parsing is not assembling, compiling or translating. It's important to use the terms properly or you'll just confuse everyone who's listening. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 11:58:24 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:58:24 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F321A83.7040404@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F313924.1470.11C05C7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F321A83.7040404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F324740.22262.16CA98@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2012 at 22:47, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > So, if SWEET16 is emulating something, what is it emulating? > It's emulating a virtual machine. > > Certainly one can't plausibly claim that a chunk of Sweet16 code is > native 6502 code. I suppose it depends upon how you look at it. There are plenty of machines out there with incomplete (i.e. not all instructions present in hardware), where execution of the unimplemented instruction causes a trap to a subroutine that performs the deisred operation. I would not, as a whole, call programs running on those machines, "emulated", even if they use some emulation facilities. Put on the appropriate fully-implemented hardware, nothing is emulated. Whle you could claim that 6502 SWEET16 is an emulator of sorts, really, the difference between a subroutine call with a variable number of arguments and SWEET16 code is vanishingly small. Both are activated by a JSR and control eventually returns to the calling program. So, back to the original premise, operations that take several bytes on an 8080 could be reduced considerably by resorting to a SWEET16 sort of implementation--i.e. an RST byte followed by an opcode byte, followe by operands, if any. So long as control returns to the calling code, that code, as a whole is not being emulated. Contrast this with P-code implementations, or CPU emulatons, where the program never gets control of the real P-counter--it's always being managed by the P-code interpreter or the emulation package. --Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:14:54 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 10:14:54 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2012 8:49 AM, "Kevin Reynolds" wrote: > > Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? > Kevin You are not really concerned about native SCSI support but rather MSCP (disk) and TMSCP (tape). If the OS supports an RQDX controller it should support an MSCP SCSI controller such as the usual CMD CQD Q-bus SCSI controllers. -Glen From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 12:21:11 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 13:21:11 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81B9287D-5FB3-4E99-AB6F-68D5F3983151@gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Feb 8, 2012 8:49 AM, "Kevin Reynolds" wrote: >> >> Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I > really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything > else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? >> Kevin > > You are not really concerned about native SCSI support but rather MSCP > (disk) and TMSCP (tape). If the OS supports an RQDX controller it should > support an MSCP SCSI controller such as the usual CMD CQD Q-bus SCSI > controllers. To my knowledge, VMS doesn't really even see past the MSCP at all; there's not much way it could distinguish between a SCSI disk on a CQD-220 and an MFM disk on an RDQX3. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 12:29:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 13:29:03 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <81B9287D-5FB3-4E99-AB6F-68D5F3983151@gmail.com> References: <81B9287D-5FB3-4E99-AB6F-68D5F3983151@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F32BEEF.7040307@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 01:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 8, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Feb 8, 2012 8:49 AM, "Kevin Reynolds" wrote: >>> >>> Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I >> really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything >> else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? >>> Kevin >> >> You are not really concerned about native SCSI support but rather MSCP >> (disk) and TMSCP (tape). If the OS supports an RQDX controller it should >> support an MSCP SCSI controller such as the usual CMD CQD Q-bus SCSI >> controllers. > > To my knowledge, VMS doesn't really even see past the MSCP at all; there's > not much way it could distinguish between a SCSI disk on a CQD-220 and an > MFM disk on an RDQX3. I can confirm that this is indeed the case. Most will look like an RA81 or similar. (same MSCP interface, same registers etc) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 13:11:08 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (David Clark) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 11:11:08 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> On 2/8/2012 10:14 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I > really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything > else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? I have a CMD CQD-220 SCSI card in my mVAX II and it works great. Boots off CD and hasn't had a problem with any SCSI disk I've thrown at it yet. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 8 14:30:56 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:30:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Emulation vs. Simulation (was: Fun with Lisp: Programming the NES) In-Reply-To: References: <1328644112.95691.YahooMailNeo@web164502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201202082030.PAA18738@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I find emulation in general a fascinating topic. It seems that not >> too many people on this list are familiar w/the mechanics of >> creating an emulator Well, I dunno about "many", but I've done an emulator or two in my day. I'll be happy to answer any questions you have (that I can answer), but you'll need to use some other sending path for your mail for me to see them; Yahoo is too much of an abuse sewer for me to be willing to listen to them directly, and your list mail comes through a webmail system from a host with no rDNS and I thus don't see it either. (You may note I'm replying to someone else's reply to you.) >> There seems to be a significant distinction made between emulation >> and virtualisation. > Most definitely. I agree, though it's really two extremes of a difference of degree, which amounts in practice to a difference of kind. (The difference of degree lies in how much of the emulated system can be handled directly by the real hardware.) >> [...] it behooves the programmer to recreated every last detail of >> the targeted system, down to gliches and whatnot. > Unfortunately for truly authentic simulations, the glitches aren't > often documented and must be discovered the hard way. Indeed. One of those emulators I mentioned is for the KA630. I tried to run the ROM code from a real KA630 under emulation and, upon finding that it didn't work, investigated and discovered that the real hardware has a prefetch buffer which isn't flushed when MAPEN is turned on (or, probably, off). The ROM code enables MAPEN and depends on executing the next instruction or two out of the prefetch buffer. I had to add a prefetch buffer to my emulator to make it work. (That project is currently blocked on a different problem: serial I/O timing.) >> A question I asked sometime ago was is emulation basically just >> parsing? > No, it's not. I agree. Parsing can refer to either of two closely related things in my experience, but neither one is such as to make it true that "emulation [is] basically just parsing". (Loosely put, they are the theoretical and practical versions of the same thing.) They amount to syntax-checking and de-serializing some kind of serialization; in practice, this most often is converting a text representation of something to a data-structure representation of the same thing. >> Perhaps that's too simple a description, Well...more to the point, it's a rather nonstandard use of the verb "parse" and thus isn't too useful if you want to actually communicate with other people. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:13:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:13:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <4F31A938.8060504@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Feb 7, 12 10:44:08 pm Message-ID: > I found a data sheet for one of the early HP mouse chips that > said you can! The optical mouse sensor chip had quadtrature > outputs in addition to (I think) a PS/2 interface. I may have > been old enough that it required an additional chip to add > sipport for a scroll wheel. Anyway, I have a couple of mice > with that chip in, and one day I'll get around to making > a quadrature "tail" to connect to (say) the Atari ST. Obviously you can make an optical mouse with quadrature outputs, and it doesn't suprise me at all that some of the sensor/controller ICs have such outputs avaialbe (as well as PS/2 or whatever). I suspect the problem is knowing which mice have them. It;s hardly going to be mentioned on the box or in the adverts. For some odd reason computer shops dislike you dismantling hardware before buying it :-). And a lot of commodity products exist in several versions, made in dfifernt factories, having the same appearance and funcitonality to the average user , but none-the-less totally different inisde. SO even saying that 'The 10 quid opticla mouse from PC World has a sensor chip with quadrature outptus' is not enough. Some might, others may use a totally different IC. On another point, mouse 'tail' cable is thin anf flexible, and I've not foudn a source of 8 or 9 wire cable that's as flexible (Yes, the cables on the old quadrature mice were, but I've not seen a company that sells it by the metre). So making a new cable is not as easy as it sounds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:15:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:15:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 7, 12 05:45:06 pm Message-ID: > > Yes it is, but it has a bizarro round connector with an orientation > bar across the bottom. One could steal the mating connector from a > Bus Mouse ISA card, or replace the cable. Inside, though, it's like Unless Microsoft have used armoured cable or something for this mouse, can't you just apply wirecutters to remove the original connecotr and then solder on whateer connector you like? > all of its other quadrature-emitting kin. At least one Microsoft mouse I was inside had _horrible_ encoders consisting of a disk with contact pads on it and springy brush contacts. I think I prefere opto-electronic enocders... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:22:42 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:22:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 8, 12 01:42:09 am Message-ID: > > The big problem with the A3000 is the under-keyboard mouse socket. You > > need a mouse with a thin cable and a small connector, otherwise you're > > stuffed. > > Ahh, right. Nothing else uses the same pinouts so that an extension No, it's _9_ pin mini-DIN. Like a Mac+ serial port conencotr but with 9 pins. The only other thing I can rememebr that used tht conencotr were the Psion MC-series laptops (for the serial port) > lead would work - as an SVideo one works for ADB? Only if the 2 groudnsi nthe S video cable are kept separate (this came up a while ago here). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:29:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:29:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F31E5D4.40307@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Feb 7, 12 07:02:44 pm Message-ID: > (I also need to give PNX a try one of these days, I have a spare SA-4000 > drive that I plan to use for this purpose when I get the nerve to swap > it out...) I never really liked PNX. It's a personal thing, but for me the fun of the PERQ is the fact that you can modify the microcode. There is of course no hardware protection on the control store, and the mcirocode is not zwitched on a process switch under PNX (or I assume any other OS, there is no form of memory manager for the control store). There;s little problem modifyiung the microcode on a single-tasking OS like POS, but on a multi-staking one you've got to be darn cvareful differnet processes don;'to change the same thigns in differnt ways. In the end I decided I'd run unix on other machines and use the PERQ for that which only it can do. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 8 14:32:25 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:32:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <20120208084002.3cef271b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Feb 8, 12 08:40:02 am Message-ID: > > I guess I'm a total anorak, but there was a TNIX.. > > > > [Tektronix Unix, running on a PDP11/23-based development sustem] > I own one of those and BTW I am looking for software for it. The hard > disk needs a fsck(8) and this is a stand alone tool. Unfortunately I > didn't get those floppies with the machine. I _may_ have the distribution kit for my machine I will see what I can find. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 15:00:15 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:00:15 -0200 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse References: Message-ID: <0b1001cce6a4$bc84da30$6809a8c0@tababook> > At least one Microsoft mouse I was inside had _horrible_ encoders > consisting of a disk with contact pads on it and springy brush contacts. > I think I prefere opto-electronic enocders... http://tabalabs.com.br/pc/mouse_tpx_pc "Made in Brazil" :o) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 15:01:27 2012 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:01:27 -0200 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse References: Message-ID: <0b1101cce6a4$ed0a6c10$6809a8c0@tababook> Two questions: - Amiga and atari ST uses quadrature mouse (mice!), eh? Why not use them? - Why not just solder a DB9 (or DE-9, whatever) and drill the cabinet? :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 08, 2012 6:22 PM Subject: Re: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse >> > The big problem with the A3000 is the under-keyboard mouse socket. You >> > need a mouse with a thin cable and a small connector, otherwise you're >> > stuffed. >> >> Ahh, right. Nothing else uses the same pinouts so that an extension > > No, it's _9_ pin mini-DIN. Like a Mac+ serial port conencotr but with 9 > pins. The only other thing I can rememebr that used tht conencotr were > the Psion MC-series laptops (for the serial port) > >> lead would work - as an SVideo one works for ADB? > > Only if the 2 groudnsi nthe S video cable are kept separate (this came up > a while ago here). > > -tony > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Feb 8 15:32:27 2012 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:32:27 +0000 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F32E9EB.1040702@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > On another point, mouse 'tail' cable is thin anf flexible, and I've not > foudn a source of 8 or 9 wire cable that's as flexible (Yes, the cables > on the old quadrature mice were, but I've not seen a company that sells > it by the metre). So making a new cable is not as easy as it sounds. Yes, you're absolutely right! This is actually another reason that I've not made up the Atari ST mouse. I've seen some very flexible CAT-5 cable that is, of course, 8-core and might be good enough. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From jws at jwsss.com Wed Feb 8 16:55:29 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:55:29 -0800 Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo Message-ID: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> Just passing it on. I have boots on the ground there if it helps, but no interest in this (as in I don't have ownership). Listing shows some knowledge on the part of the owner. Posting: Own part of the Apple history with this RareVintage Lisa Computer. The Lisa computer was introduced by Apple in the early 80's. This Rare Vintage Lisa Computer will power up but will not accept a floppy disk. The case of the computer is in excellent condition with slight yellowing. The monitor is clear and all the keys on the keyboard appear to work with no chips on the corners. Comes with the mouse. The original price for a Lisa computer was $10,000. http://kansascity.craigslist.org/sys/2841035465.html From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 16:56:47 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:56:47 -0800 Subject: WTD: Acorn or similar 3-button quadrature mouse In-Reply-To: <0b1001cce6a4$bc84da30$6809a8c0@tababook> References: , <0b1001cce6a4$bc84da30$6809a8c0@tababook> Message-ID: <4F328D2F.6298.127F523@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2012 at 19:00, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > At least one Microsoft mouse I was inside had _horrible_ encoders > > consisting of a disk with contact pads on it and springy brush > > contacts. I think I prefere opto-electronic enocders... > > http://tabalabs.com.br/pc/mouse_tpx_pc More inexpensive RS232C mice for the PC were also made this way. I still have a bunch of the 3-button variety that use that type of encoder. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 8 17:29:55 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:29:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> References: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> > original price for a Lisa computer was $10,000. But, THAT was for a working one. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Feb 8 17:42:14 2012 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 23:42:14 +0000 Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> original price for a Lisa computer was $10,000. > > But, THAT was for a working one. > A working NEW one ;) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 8 18:02:32 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:02:32 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F324740.22262.16CA98@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F313924.1470.11C05C7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F321A83.7040404@brouhaha.com> <4F324740.22262.16CA98@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Contrast this with P-code implementations, or CPU emulatons, where the > program never gets control of the real P-counter--it's always being > managed by the P-code interpreter or the emulation package. --Chuck But P-code isn't considered to be native code either. If you go down the path of calling Sweet16 code and P-code "native code", then the phrase "native code" no longer has any meaning. At that point you can claim that any program ever written for a stored-program digital computer is "native code" for my PDP-8, because if I add enough storage to the PDP-8 and spend enough time writing a simulator, I can run it. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 18:22:49 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:22:49 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F324740.22262.16CA98@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2012 at 16:02, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Contrast this with P-code implementations, or CPU emulatons, where > > the program never gets control of the real P-counter--it's always > > being managed by the P-code interpreter or the emulation package. > > But P-code isn't considered to be native code either. Precisely my point. The P-code interpreter never relinquishes access of the *real* P-counter to the calling program. A native code subroutine (and Sweet16) does. You JSR to Sweet16 and it eventually returns. That's not the case with any interpreted code. SWEET16 is a set of routines with an unsual argument-passing convention. The calling program has control at the outset and receives control back when SWEET16 returns. That's not the case with Java, UCSD Pascal, etc. During execution of those the program is never aware of the underlying architecture. I can run P-code compiled programs on any platform that supports that variety of P-code. I cannot do the same with a 6502 program using SWEET16. Too much 6502 native code! --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 18:23:59 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 19:23:59 -0500 Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2012, at 6:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> original price for a Lisa computer was $10,000. > > But, THAT was for a working one. It was also in early '80s dollars. That said, I still wouldn't expect anything close to that even in 2010 dollars if it's not working. - Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 8 18:31:13 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:31:13 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> On 02/08/2012 02:11 PM, David Clark wrote: > On 2/8/2012 10:14 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I >> really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything >> else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? > > I have a CMD CQD-220 SCSI card in my mVAX II and it works great. Boots > off CD and hasn't had a problem with any SCSI disk I've thrown at it yet. > There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. However, any SCSI controller that emulates MSCP protocol is by default supported. The RQDX1/2/3 controller for floppy and hard disk does that, CMD CQD-220 SCSI card are examples of that. The may be others but those are the most known. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 8 18:36:52 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:36:52 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F324740.22262.16CA98@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> > I cannot do the same with a 6502 program using SWEET16. Too much 6502 native code! I can, and have, run SWEET16 code on a non-6502-compatible processor, using an interpreter I wrote. It is true that you can't run mixed SWEET16 and 6502 code on such a setup, unless you simulate the 6502 also, but that's beside the point. SWEET16 code is NOT native 6502 code, even though it usually is run on an interpreter on a 6502. And not, it isn't just an unusual subroutine calling convention. It *is* an interpreter, with a non-6502 machine state, and its own instruction set. That it allows you to return to 6502 code when you want to doesn't somehow magically make it not be an interpreter. It has a loop that fetches, decodes, and executes SWEET16 opcodes. Cleverly done, yes. But SWEET16 code is not 6502 native code, any more than CHIP8 code is 1802 native code. From mc68010 at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 18:48:14 2012 From: mc68010 at gmail.com (David Clark) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 16:48:14 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F3317CE.9000005@gmail.com> On 2/8/2012 4:31 PM, allison wrote: > There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. However, any SCSI controller > that emulates MSCP protocol is by default supported. > The RQDX1/2/3 controller for floppy and hard disk does that, CMD > CQD-220 SCSI card are examples of that. > The may be others but those are the most known. > > Allison Right. It's transparent to the user though. The SCSI disk just shows up as DUB and the card does all the work. No changes to VMS are needed. Makes it very simply. Even easier than putting a SCSI controller in a PC. They have a full set of SCSI utilities for formatting and setting up drives built into the card. Actually booting them from the monitor can be a challenge though. You'll need the manual for sure. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 8 18:50:03 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:50:03 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F33183B.3000204@verizon.net> On 02/08/2012 10:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: >> The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. > Nope. Bog-standard BA23 or BA123. There are later cabinets for > MicroVAX IIIs, but they are models like the BA213. You can take a > MicroPDP-11/23 and re-stuff it as a MicroVAX-I or a MicroVAX-II, > though you will probably need different peripherals (I don't think the > DLV11/DLV1J is supported under VMS, for example, though the RLV12 is). The DLV11J is supported line an DL. But not as console as CPU has one. I believe the backplane was different.for the uVAX1, and different from the 11/23 and uVAXII in the CD slot usage. though the backplane is swappable. Generally a uVAXII in a BA23 is cramped, just not enough slots or places to stick disk drives. If your doing that use the densest memory (8mb boards or 16mb is possible), IO(DHV11) and a RQDX3. Some boards like the RQDX2 are quad width and eat more space than RQDX3 a dual width card. But power may be a factor if care is not taken. > The uVAX-I has a dual-board CPU that must be installed in slots 1-2 of > a backplane with CD slots, and the memory sits _on_ the Qbus, so with > 22 address bits, you top out at 4MB. The later MicroVAXen fit on a > single board and use PMI memory (different boards, matched to the type > of CPU). I don't know the MicroVAX III memory max off the top of my > head (after my time), but the uVAX-II has 1MB on-board and can take, > IIRC, 12MB in the first two slots. > the KA630 was 16mb, KA650 and 655 maxed at 64mb . > Besides memory, the big limitation I remember from those days about > upgrades was disk size. The uVAX-I shipped with the RQDX1 which did > not support disks over 30MB, I think. (RD52 but not RD53, IIRC). The > RQDX3 supports DEC disks up to the RD54 (154MB) and non-DEC disks, > though it can be tricky to get the Field Service formatter which can > label non-standard disks. Even so, MFM disks top out pretty low. I > think I managed to fit VMS 6.0 on an RD54 on a 9MB uVAX-II, but I had > to leave something behind (like the HELP files). Using an MSCP SCSI > controller bypasses this dance and leaves memory as the critical > resource. > Yep, memory is the critical resource to a point, 9mb will run a lot of the later versions but make sure you have swap space on the disk. If your creative, and the box is a BA123 you can use multiple RD54s (up to 4 drives are supported) and space is less an issue. Other ways is a RD54 and a mix of smaller drives. RD52 (quantum D540) is a good drive for swapping as it's fast despite being only 31MB. Using a SCSI controller is the way out but watch for dives over 1GB for the boot drive. I forget if that affected only the older 3100s or also the uVAX-II boot as well. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 8 18:57:04 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:57:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Z-machine In-Reply-To: <4F32841B.3070505@softjar.se> References: <4F32841B.3070505@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4F3319E0.4050404@verizon.net> On 02/08/2012 09:18 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> The biggest thing to watch for in PDP8 code is recursion as you >> need a software stack and handler to preserve data/addresses. > > Not really needed. The Z-machine implementation itself is more or less > an abstract CPU, and does not really need to do any recursion. > However, the Z-machine games themself can do recursion. But as a stack > for this purpose is a part of the requirement of the Z-machine itself, > it will just work, if you implement the Z-machine. > >> The DECmates had the 6120 and that implemented IOTs to create >> a address and data stack( hardware can be built to do that in >> any omnibus 8). The unique PDP-8 IO made doing things like that >> more common than would be guessed. > > Right. But on an Omnibus machine, the easy way would be to instead > have a small subroutine that push/pop on the stack, instead of having > to built new hardware. Johnny, As a PDP-8 owner building hardware is fun as well. I know bits are easier to move than solder. One comment, the PDP-8 is a very odd machine relative to most micros. It always takes me a bit to shift gears to code for the PDP-8 and when I do I find its a remarkably efficient machine. The other CPU thats has that same effect on me is the RCA 1802. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 19:13:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:13:00 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2012 at 16:36, Eric Smith wrote: > It is true that you can't run mixed SWEET16 and 6502 code on such a > setup, unless you simulate the 6502 also, but that's beside the point. > SWEET16 code is NOT native 6502 code, even though it usually is run > on an interpreter on a 6502. That's precisely the point--the program starts out in 6502 native mode. It calls (via JSR) a subroutine (SWEET16) that goes through the argument list (follows the JSR) until the end. If that's not native code, then neither is a printf(), which is invoked via a native-mode CALL instruction, which then interprets the string passed as an argument. I suppose you could argue that printf() is executing printf instructions and not native code, but that seems to be stretching the point. I can similarly run a sequence similar to the following (and I have): CALL DoSomething integer operation-one address operand-one address operand-two integer operation-two address operand-one address operand-two address operand-three 0 But let's get back to my original proposal. Suppose I want to implement an indirect fetch-and-postincrement operation corresponding to C *p++. I could write (in 8080 pseudocode): RST 5 db increment-and-fetch code dw address of pointer and write a servicer for RST 5 that would execute a short subroutine that would fetch the pointer, load and return the byte it points to and then increment and store the pointer. If fetch-and-increment- pointer is a common operation, I can potentially save a large amount of code. It's not emulation. That you need to use emulation to execute a 6502 program on a different platform should be the clue. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Wed Feb 8 19:18:56 2012 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:18:56 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:31 PM, allison wrote: > > There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. > What was the KZQSA for? I got one and thought I had scored a qbus scsi adapter and quickly determined it was pretty much useless. What I never understood for sure was if it lacked hardware documentation and drivers and was not supported for general SCSI use or if it was broken/crippled in some way so that it couldn't be used for general SCSI. -chd From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 19:25:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:25:32 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F33208C.2060705@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 08:18 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:31 PM, allison wrote: > >> >> There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. >> > > What was the KZQSA for? I got one and thought I had scored a qbus scsi > adapter and quickly determined it was pretty much useless. What I > never understood for sure was if it lacked hardware documentation and > drivers and was not supported for general SCSI use or if it was > broken/crippled in some way so that it couldn't be used for general > SCSI. That's a driver issue and was some sort of "business decision". (means "got screwed up by suits for no good reason") And it is an MSCP controller, is it not? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 19:29:56 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 20:29:56 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33183B.3000204@verizon.net> References: <4F33183B.3000204@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F332194.50703@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 07:50 PM, allison wrote: > I believe the backplane was different.for the uVAX1, and different > from the 11/23 and uVAXII in the CD slot usage. though the backplane > is swappable. I'm not aware of any different backplane for the MicroVAX-I. I've certainly run several MicroVAX-Is in different, formerly PDP-11 Qbus chassis, like the BA11-SA for example, and several non-MicroVAX-I BA23s, and my "woodie boxes" (internal DEC prototypes of the BA123 that were built with mostly BA23 parts including a standard BA23 backplane). > Using a SCSI controller is the way out but watch for dives over 1GB for > the boot drive. > I forget if that affected only the older 3100s or also the uVAX-II boot > as well. It's not an issue on the MicroVAX-II because it'll only end up speaking MSCP to the controller, and never knows there's SCSI on the other end. It's an issue for early integrated desktop VAXstations because the boot ROM only uses so many bits (I forget how many just now) to address a logical block. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 19:31:17 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:31:17 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2012 5:22 PM, "Charles Dickman" wrote: > > What was the KZQSA for? I got one and thought I had scored a qbus scsi > adapter and quickly determined it was pretty much useless. What I > never understood for sure was if it lacked hardware documentation and > drivers and was not supported for general SCSI use or if it was > broken/crippled in some way so that it couldn't be used for general > SCSI. > It's great for booting the VMS install media from a SCSI CD-ROM. That's all I've ever done with one and maybe all they are practically good for. -Glen From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 8 19:47:13 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:47:13 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If that's not native code, then neither is a printf(), I suppose the printf() interpreter has a rather usual instruction set, which isn't even close to being Turing-complete, but if you want to call it an interpreter rather than native code, I don't see any strong argument to the contrary. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 8 19:51:35 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:51:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: PDP-8 Z-machine In-Reply-To: <4F3319E0.4050404@verizon.net> References: <4F32841B.3070505@softjar.se> <4F3319E0.4050404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201202090151.UAA22719@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > One comment, the PDP-8 is a very odd machine relative to most micros. I remember noticing, back when I had an -8/f, that it was that very odd thing, a register-poor RISC machine. What's more, it's a RISC machine done before the whole RISC/CISC split really happened in most people's minds. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 19:54:02 2012 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 17:54:02 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33208C.2060705@neurotica.com> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33208C.2060705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > ?And it is an MSCP controller, is it not? > An M5976 KZQSA is not an MSCP controller. An M5977 RQZX1 is supposed to be an MSCP and TMSCP controller. I don't have any first hand knowledge of a RQZX1, just the KZQSA. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 8 19:58:21 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:58:21 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. Some releases of VMS support the KZQSA, which is a native SCSI controller (no MSCP or other emulation). Doesn't that mean that there is some SCSI support in VMS? From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 8 19:59:06 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 17:59:06 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> References: <201202032051.q13Kp40q015032@floodgap.com>, <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F33286A.1070001@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > I suppose the printf() interpreter has a rather usual instruction set, s/usual/unusual/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 20:05:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:05:33 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33208C.2060705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F3329ED.7070003@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 08:54 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 5:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> And it is an MSCP controller, is it not? >> > > An M5976 KZQSA is not an MSCP controller. > > An M5977 RQZX1 is supposed to be an MSCP and TMSCP controller. I > don't have any first hand knowledge of a RQZX1, just the KZQSA. Ahh, the RQZX1 is what I was thinking of. So it's still just a driver issue with the KZQSA, yes? -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Feb 8 20:06:20 2012 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 18:06:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1328753180.43866.YahooMailClassic@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/8/12, Tony Duell wrote: > There is of > course no hardware protection on the control store, and the > mcirocode is? > not zwitched on a process switch under PNX (or I assume any > other OS, > there is no form of memory manager for the control store). The Accent OS could switch among multiple microcoded instruction sets upon a context switch. Spice Lisp (forerunner of CMU Common Lisp) had its own Lisp-machine-like instruction set, while the OS and system utilities ran the Pascal (Q-code) instruction set. I don't know if any of this ever escaped from CMU, however. --Bill From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 20:13:18 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:13:18 +1100 Subject: native code versus interpreters Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That's precisely the point--the program starts out in 6502 native > mode. ?It calls (via JSR) a subroutine (SWEET16) that goes through > the argument list (follows the JSR) until the end. The PDP-11 FORTRAN-IV compiler generated code this way, it was called "threaded code", and the resultant binaries straddle the boundary between "native code" and interpreted code. RBK Dewar (ACM 1975) makes the distinction between indirect and direct threaded code, noting that the PDP-11 FORTRAN-IV compiler generated direct-threaded code - "linear list of addresses of routines to be executed". I feel a strict definition of native code is complicated since it is necessary to place it in time as well as extent; microcoding, writable control stores, extensible instruction sets complicate the definition. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Feb 8 20:13:56 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:13:56 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F332BE4.5000308@verizon.net> On 02/08/2012 08:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: >> There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. > > Some releases of VMS support the KZQSA, which is a native SCSI > controller (no MSCP or other emulation). Doesn't that mean that there > is some SCSI support in VMS? > > > Which releases and where can you find a KZQSA. All kidding that was a V6 or later controller correct? I'm certain V5.4 didn't. I could also add the VS2000 as that had the NCR5380 scsi controller but the scsi driver was totally broken (tape only and that was a unique version of the TK50). Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 20:39:38 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:39:38 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F3331EA.703@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 08:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > allison wrote: >> There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. > > Some releases of VMS support the KZQSA, which is a native SCSI > controller (no MSCP or other emulation). Doesn't that mean that there is > some SCSI support in VMS? Ahh, and what about the NCR5380 in the MicroVAX/VAXstation-2000? There's no other processor on that board to run an MSCP emulation layer, at least not one that I recall. It's only officially supported for tapes, but people have rewritten EPROMs for those machines such that they'll boot from a SCSI disk attached to that interface. I don't recall what device type they show up as, though. (which is sad, because I used a VAXstation-2000 every day for years, eons ago!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 8 20:40:02 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:40:02 -0500 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120209024002.GA1964@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 8 Feb 2012 at 16:02, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Contrast this with P-code implementations, or CPU emulatons, where > > > the program never gets control of the real P-counter--it's always > > > being managed by the P-code interpreter or the emulation package. > > > > But P-code isn't considered to be native code either. > > Precisely my point. The P-code interpreter never relinquishes access > of the *real* P-counter to the calling program. A native code > subroutine (and Sweet16) does. You JSR to Sweet16 and it eventually > returns. > > That's not the case with any interpreted code. It's turtles all the way down though. > SWEET16 is a set of routines with an unsual argument-passing > convention. > > The calling program has control at the outset and receives control > back when SWEET16 returns. There are other VMs that do this. Granted, they too, have unusual argument-passing conventions, but in C, I can call subroutines that run in the Lua VM [1] and receive control back. And said Lua VM can call back into my C code as well. > That's not the case with Java, UCSD Pascal, etc. During execution of > those the program is never aware of the underlying architecture. I > can run P-code compiled programs on any platform that supports that > variety of P-code. I cannot do the same with a 6502 program using > SWEET16. Too much 6502 native code! I'm looking at some technical documentation I have on OS-9 (the non-Macinstosh operating system from Microware) and while I've never actually run OS-9, the documentation does state (about modules): BASIC09, for example, may run either I-code or 6809 machine language procedures arbitrarily by checking the langauge type code. To me, and the fact that the module type can be one of four different types of code [2], says to me that code *can* be written to load up a "module" and "call" it [3]. In fact, the documentation for OS-9 lists seven pre-defined module types, one of which is "program" and one of which is "subroutine", so the implication I see is that you can write "subroutines" in any language, and call them [4]. And yes, you can run a 6502 program using SWEET16---you just need to interpret 6502 code (although that's typically called an "emulator" [5]). -spc (SWEET16 is a simple 16-bit VM inside an Apple ][. I can run an Apple ][ emulator on an Amiga, which itself is emulated on a virtual PC running on a physical PC. At which point do the turtles stop?) [1] Lua code is compiled into an internal representation, and it's this "byte code" that Lua interprets directly. The actual byte code is an implementation detail, as LuaJIT uses a completely different form of bytecode prior to final conversion to native code [6]. [2] 6809 machine code BASIC09 I-code Pascal P-code COBOL I-code [3] Maybe by checking the type of code it is [2], and calling a code-specific argument passing method to invoke it. [4] In theory. Also in theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice however ... [5] Odd, isn't it? If the CPU can interpret the binary data directly, it's execution. If not, then it's interpretation, unless you are trying to interpret the machine code for another machine, then it's called emulation. [6] The LuaJIT is a drop-in replacement for the standard Lua intepreter. You can use either one interchangibly---even if you use Lua as a library. You can either link against lua or luajit. Also, the code LuaJIT produces is *fast* (although Lua itself is one of the fastest interpreters out there) and can rival C code in some cases. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 20:44:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:44:22 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F332BE4.5000308@verizon.net> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> <4F332BE4.5000308@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F333306.9050805@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 09:13 PM, allison wrote: > I could also add the VS2000 as that had the NCR5380 scsi controller but > the scsi driver > was totally broken (tape only and that was a unique version of the TK50). There's an echo in here. ;) What was broken was the driver; one can run NetBSD just fine from that controller. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 8 20:47:56 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 21:47:56 -0500 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> References: <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120209024755.GB1964@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >If that's not native code, then neither is a printf(), > > I suppose the printf() interpreter has a rather usual instruction set, > which isn't even close to being Turing-complete, but if you want to call > it an interpreter rather than native code, I don't see any strong > argument to the contrary. And using printf() does incure some significant overhead. I wrote a hex dump program using printf() and another one using system calls. It took the printf() version 5 seconds to dump a 16034944 byte file to /dev/null [1], while the (final version of the) system call one took only 0.2 seconds for the same operation [2]. And yes, printf() does interpret the format string, so yes, I consider it an interpreter. -spc (And thank God printf() isn't Turing complete ... ) [1] http://boston.conman.org/2012/01/28.1 [2] http://boston.conman.org/2012/02/01.3 From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 21:04:48 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 22:04:48 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F332194.50703@neurotica.com> References: <4F33183B.3000204@verizon.net> <4F332194.50703@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E081087-A991-454A-80EA-5676189BD8F5@gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Using a SCSI controller is the way out but watch for dives over 1GB for >> the boot drive. >> I forget if that affected only the older 3100s or also the uVAX-II boot >> as well. > > It's not an issue on the MicroVAX-II because it'll only end up speaking MSCP to the controller, and never knows there's SCSI on the other end. It's an issue for early integrated desktop VAXstations because the boot ROM only uses so many bits (I forget how many just now) to address a logical block. I think it's actually a limitation of early SCSI commands; the 6-byte READ command has an LBA of 21 bits (1GB if you're talking 512-byte blocks). The 10-byte READ commands have 32-bit LBAs, which will still only do 2TB (which ought to be enough for anyone, right?). - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 21:14:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:14:42 -0800 Subject: native code versus interpreters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F32C9A2.30611.21415FD@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2012 at 13:13, Nigel Williams wrote: > The PDP-11 FORTRAN-IV compiler generated code this way, it was called > "threaded code", and the resultant binaries straddle the boundary > between "native code" and interpreted code. RBK Dewar (ACM 1975) makes > the distinction between indirect and direct threaded code, noting that > the PDP-11 FORTRAN-IV compiler generated direct-threaded code - > "linear list of addresses of routines to be executed". I feel a strict > definition of native code is complicated since it is necessary to > place it in time as well as extent; microcoding, writable control > stores, extensible instruction sets complicate the definition. Sure. And long before Bob wrote his article it was standard practice across a lot of platforms to use threaded code (I think of FORTH as the archetype). And there are other shades of emulation/native code. Getting on 40 years ago, I wrote a compiler in assembly that was implemented in an artifical "compiler language". Macros generated the instructions (all one word long) and an interpreter coded in FORTRAN. The idea was to abstract common items such as tokens, numerics, symbol table management, etc. and get the thing emitting code with lots of sanity checking built in. The result was very slow, but correct compilation implemented in a very short time. The macros were then recoded to native machine code, with calls to support routines written in assembly. to handle the more involved operations, such as symbol table operations and I/O. The result was a very fast compiler, essentially written in assembly, but something that could, simply by changing the environment, could be changed back to an emulated basis. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 21:18:35 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 22:18:35 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4E081087-A991-454A-80EA-5676189BD8F5@gmail.com> References: <4F33183B.3000204@verizon.net> <4F332194.50703@neurotica.com> <4E081087-A991-454A-80EA-5676189BD8F5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F333B0B.6000406@neurotica.com> On 02/08/2012 10:04 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 8, 2012, at 8:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> Using a SCSI controller is the way out but watch for dives over >>> 1GB for the boot drive. I forget if that affected only the older >>> 3100s or also the uVAX-II boot as well. >> >> It's not an issue on the MicroVAX-II because it'll only end up >> speaking MSCP to the controller, and never knows there's SCSI on >> the other end. It's an issue for early integrated desktop >> VAXstations because the boot ROM only uses so many bits (I forget >> how many just now) to address a logical block. > > I think it's actually a limitation of early SCSI commands; the 6-byte > READ command has an LBA of 21 bits (1GB if you're talking 512-byte > blocks). The 10-byte READ commands have 32-bit LBAs, which will > still only do 2TB (which ought to be enough for anyone, right?). That's what I said...kudos for remembering the number of LBA bits, which I forgot. This is handled in the boot ROM, though...once the system is booted, larger-capacity drives aren't a problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 8 21:25:11 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:25:11 -0800 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <20120209024002.GA1964@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com>, <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120209024002.GA1964@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F32CC17.3540.21DB0AB@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2012 at 21:40, Sean Conner wrote: > [5] Odd, isn't it? If the CPU can interpret the binary data directly, > it's execution. If not, then it's interpretation, unless you are > trying to interpret the machine code for another machine, then it's > called emulation. Starting way back when, there were machines that trapped on unimplemented opcodes and diverted the implementation to subroutines. If the machine was upgraded with the associated option, the opcode was implemented in hardware. Standard practice at least since the early 1960s. Other machines simply rolled the subroutines into microcode implementations and substituted hard-wired versions when upgraded. I suppose you could call that "emulation" as well. I guess it's like pornography--you know it when you see it? --Chuck From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 21:31:40 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 22:31:40 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F333B0B.6000406@neurotica.com> References: <4F33183B.3000204@verizon.net> <4F332194.50703@neurotica.com> <4E081087-A991-454A-80EA-5676189BD8F5@gmail.com> <4F333B0B.6000406@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6839CA11-56CB-42B8-983F-3B6F614B427A@gmail.com> On Feb 8, 2012, at 10:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I think it's actually a limitation of early SCSI commands; the 6-byte >> READ command has an LBA of 21 bits (1GB if you're talking 512-byte >> blocks). The 10-byte READ commands have 32-bit LBAs, which will >> still only do 2TB (which ought to be enough for anyone, right?). > > That's what I said...kudos for remembering the number of LBA bits, which I forgot. This is handled in the boot ROM, though...once the system is booted, larger-capacity drives aren't a problem. Well, I'd forgotten it was 5380, which just passes the commands straight through; I've been wading through 53C90[A] datasheets long enough that I forgot it existed; the 53C90 handles a lot of the commands autonomously. - Dave From brain at jbrain.com Wed Feb 8 21:33:22 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 21:33:22 -0600 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <20120209024755.GB1964@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> <20120209024755.GB1964@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F333E82.1000704@jbrain.com> On 2/8/2012 8:47 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > [1] http://boston.conman.org/2012/01/28.1 > [2] http://boston.conman.org/2012/02/01.3 You, my good sir, are a witty blogger. I'm reading your "Protocol Stack..." entries now. Well worth a read by all, given the recent topics here. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Feb 8 21:55:16 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:55:16 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <1328753180.43866.YahooMailClassic@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1328753180.43866.YahooMailClassic@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F3343A4.5020106@mail.msu.edu> On 2/8/2012 6:06 PM, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Wed, 2/8/12, Tony Duell wrote: > >> There is of >> course no hardware protection on the control store, and the >> mcirocode is >> not zwitched on a process switch under PNX (or I assume any >> other OS, >> there is no form of memory manager for the control store). > The Accent OS could switch among multiple microcoded instruction > sets upon a context switch. Spice Lisp (forerunner of CMU Common > Lisp) had its own Lisp-machine-like instruction set, while the OS > and system utilities ran the Pascal (Q-code) instruction set. > I don't know if any of this ever escaped from CMU, however. > > --Bill > > Some of this has been archived on Bitsavers (http://bitsavers.org/bits/PERQ/floppy/accent/). Lisp M2 (which I believe is related to Spice Lisp) is there, but nothing for Accent UNIX. I haven't yet tried it on my real PERQ (I'm not sure if S5 supports the original Z80 subsystem or not, I should just write the floppies out and try it) and my emulator isn't yet to the point where it will run it either. I currently have S4 on my PERQ 1A but it's a very minimal install, no compiler and nothing much interesting other than the Sapphire window manager. - Josh From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 22:25:15 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 23:25:15 -0500 Subject: Interpreted languages, was: ReL Unix implementations In-Reply-To: <20120209024002.GA1964@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120209024002.GA1964@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:40 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > [6] The LuaJIT is a drop-in replacement for the standard Lua intepreter. > You can use either one interchangibly---even if you use Lua as a > library. You can either link against lua or luajit. Also, the code > LuaJIT produces is *fast* (although Lua itself is one of the fastest > interpreters out there) and can rival C code in some cases. I've not seen this "fastest" claim to be true. The plain old Lua interpreter certainly isn't bad as straight bytecode interpreters go (much faster than CPython, for example), and it's definitely one of the smallest in terms of memory footprint (even with the full standard libraries). It's not the speediest, though. I need to find the benchmarks I was looking at (it was from the point of view of implementing in games; Lua landed in the "great for scripting, maybe OK for AI but probably not ideal for physics" zone, but its memory consumption was probably the smallest out of everything (they only considered interpreted languages, so raw C/C++ aren't included). I haven't seen much of LuaJIT, but I know there was a project (IronLua?) to compile Lua to CLI bytecode to be run on Mono. Mono (which also JITs its bytecode) is pretty darn fast, and I'd give it a "nearly as fast as C with some important caveats" prize. It's a memory hog, though (probably because of its enormous .NET standard library). - Dave From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 8 22:40:56 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 23:40:56 -0500 Subject: ReL Unix implementations, was: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F333E82.1000704@jbrain.com> References: <4F331524.60408@brouhaha.com> <4F32AD1C.17146.1A4AAAC@cclist.sydex.com> <4F3325A1.9010507@brouhaha.com> <20120209024755.GB1964@brevard.conman.org> <4F333E82.1000704@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120209044056.GC1964@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jim Brain once stated: > On 2/8/2012 8:47 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >[1] http://boston.conman.org/2012/01/28.1 > > >[2] http://boston.conman.org/2012/02/01.3 > You, my good sir, are a witty blogger. I'm reading your "Protocol > Stack..." entries now. Well worth a read by all, given the recent > topics here. The Protocol Stack From Hell is an SS7 telephony stack by the way. It's a different world than IP networking (which is what I'm familiar with). -spc (And yes, the code in that is scary ... ) From spc at conman.org Wed Feb 8 22:49:19 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 23:49:19 -0500 Subject: Interpreted languages, was: ReL Unix implementations In-Reply-To: References: <4F330D18.6010703@brouhaha.com> <4F32A159.22407.176BBD2@cclist.sydex.com> <20120209024002.GA1964@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120209044919.GD1964@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated: > On Feb 8, 2012, at 9:40 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > > [6] The LuaJIT is a drop-in replacement for the standard Lua intepreter. > > You can use either one interchangibly---even if you use Lua as a > > library. You can either link against lua or luajit. Also, the code > > LuaJIT produces is *fast* (although Lua itself is one of the fastest > > interpreters out there) and can rival C code in some cases. > > I've not seen this "fastest" claim to be true. The plain old Lua interpreter > certainly isn't bad as straight bytecode interpreters go (much faster than > CPython, for example), and it's definitely one of the smallest in terms of > memory footprint (even with the full standard libraries). It's not the speediest, > though. I don't know. I did some benchmarks [1] and Lua held its own against Perl. But that's with a system provided Perl, and a stock compile of Lua and an odd benchmark program. > I haven't seen much of LuaJIT, but I know there was a project (IronLua?) to > compile Lua to CLI bytecode to be run on Mono. Mono (which also JITs its > bytecode) is pretty darn fast, and I'd give it a "nearly as fast as C with > some important caveats" prize. It's a memory hog, though (probably because > of its enormous .NET standard library). LuaJIT compiles to a single library and supports compiling to native x86, PPC and ARM (and on the x86, it's around 200k for the VM/JIT compiler). It also has a native ffi (foreign function interface) that allows you to all any C library directly without writing bindings (as long as you have header files). It's very impressive. -spc (I would love to use LuaJIT at work, but our stuff has to run on SPARC, so I get by with plain Lua) [1] http://boston.conman.org/2009/10/14.3 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 23:11:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 00:11:36 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4F335588.3040905@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2012 02:14 PM, Kevin Reynolds wrote: > The cabinet for the microvax I is different that the BA123 and the > BA23 that are available for the later vaxes I believe. This model > has a chassis which is 6"x28"x22", Can you take a picture of this box please? It sounds like a BA23 to me, and pretty much every MicroVAX-I shipped in bog-standard BA23s. > and a KD23 CPU (probably faulty). KD32. > It has a maximum RAM capability of 4MB. It definitely cannot run > netbsd later than 1.61, maybe nothing before that, but I haven't > validated... Are you certain that it can run NetBSD *at all*? To my knowledge, the somewhat unusual memory addressing scheme of the KD32 (memory directly on the Qbus, unique for a VAX) would require quite a bit of specific kernel support in NetBSD, and I don't think anyone ever did that. It's possible that it happened and I missed it, but I doubt it; port-vax is a pretty low-traffic list and I've been on it since like 1993. (when the ONLY VAX it ran on was the 11/750) -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 8 23:25:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 00:25:57 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F3358E5.5040402@neurotica.com> On 02/07/2012 07:37 PM, allison wrote: > The biggest thing to watch for in PDP8 code is recursion as you > need a software stack and handler to preserve data/addresses. > The DECmates had the 6120 and that implemented IOTs to create > a address and data stack( hardware can be built to do that in > any omnibus 8). The unique PDP-8 IO made doing things like that > more common than would be guessed. Yeah, heck...plugging in a board can actually add instructions to the instruction set! Great stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire New Kensington, PA From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Feb 8 23:48:10 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 05:48:10 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <4F3358E5.5040402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2/8/12 9:25 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: >On 02/07/2012 07:37 PM, allison wrote: >> The biggest thing to watch for in PDP8 code is recursion as you >> need a software stack and handler to preserve data/addresses. >> The DECmates had the 6120 and that implemented IOTs to create >> a address and data stack( hardware can be built to do that in >> any omnibus 8). The unique PDP-8 IO made doing things like that >> more common than would be guessed. > > Yeah, heck...plugging in a board can actually add instructions to the >instruction set! Great stuff. > > -Dave > Yup. IOT instructions *are* instructions, no greater or lesser than any other, and as you add IOT-based peripheral devices you are defining semantics for previously undefined instructions. Very cool. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Feb 9 00:57:16 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 07:57:16 +0100 Subject: KZQSA, was : Re: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F3329ED.7070003@neurotica.com> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33208C.2060705@neurotica.com> <4F3329ED.7070003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120209075716.8q516hq7ks4kgccw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Dave McGuire : > Ahh, the RQZX1 is what I was thinking of. So it's still just a > driver issue with the KZQSA, yes? All from memory, so ... We had this discussion years ago already. AFAIRC, the KZQSA doesn't have any boot EPROM, so it has to use the build in monitor program of the machine it is attached to. And only the 4000 series had the commands build in, to BOOT from a KZQSA. After you boot, you can use the KZQSA on other machines too, if your OS iinstalled the drivers for it. From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Feb 8 02:41:13 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 09:41:13 +0100 Subject: Nokia terminals (Was: Apple ][ disk/game server) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> Finally, after digging out a terminal, reconfigured my new web server and installed samba on it I have some pictures to show of the terminals. http://www.neab.net/temp/ http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-front.jpg Front view http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-back.jpg Model number on the back http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd.jpg Keyboard without overlay http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd-overlay.jpg Overlay for the Notis programs This is of a later version of the monitor, there is an earlier version that is almost identical on the outside. The main difference is that the model name is "NOTIS" instead of "VDU 302 S". The only difference I've found in the working of the terminal is that the NOTIS terminal doesn't have support for reverse video. On the inside there are a couple of details. - The earlier keyboard use an 8048 ceramic EPROM processor, Later models have a plastic OTP 8048. Only difference on the outside is the screws. Straight heads on earlier and philips on later. - The earlier main board have a few wires and a piggy back mounted chip. It also have an RC-circuit added close to the clock circuit. - The earlier terminals use a ceramic 80186 in a socket, later terminals use a PLCC in a socket. The pinout seems to be the same of the sockets. I guess that these terminals were adapted for use with the NOTIS program set, corresponding to the office program suite today. There are a number of non-standard keys on the keyboard, for example "regret", "copy", "strike", "write", "help", "end"... (freely translated from Swedish). It contains 121 keys in total. There is a connector for an external mouse on the back, but I haven't seen any yet. It also looks like there is a graphic mode when the self test is running, but I haven't found any instructions on how to turn it on. You get to the setup menu and self test by pressing Ctrl + help twice. Some day I'll try to reverse engineer the software to see what else fun there is in this terminal. The memory in the terminal is made up of 8 x 41464 (256 kbyte) so the memory seems to be enough to support graphics. Other IC:s on the main board: - NEC D7220AD graphic controller - 2 x 27512 EPROM - KM2817A-25 2kbyte EEPROM - 2 x Intel P82530 serial comm controller, one in socket, one soldered - Fujitsu MB113T400, 40 pin DIL in socket.... haven't found any data on this one, video scan generator possibly? Placed next to two crystal oscillators, 32MHz and 36.389MHz. - Fujitsu MB113T401, 28 pin DIL in socket... haven't found any data on this either. Placed between the memory and the connector to the analog board. - 74S472 with label, 512x8 bit prom, probably character generator - Approximately 40 more TTL and analogue IC:s The terminal seems to be a custom adaption of a Nokia terminal for Norsk Data AS. I also have a generic serial terminal from Nokia that is white but the chassi seems to be cast from the same mould. Here we have the terminal running connected to my ND-110 Satellite. The yellowish tint is because of the white balance in my camera. The phosphor is white as in the top and bottom of the picture. http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/File:SINTRAN_III_Boot_screen.jpg More about ND on the wiki http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Any other questions? ;-) /G?ran Torfinn Ingolfsen skrev 2012-01-28 18:54: > 2012/1/28 G?ran Axelsson > >> I've got a 12 80186 in purple ceramic with sockets. If anyone needs or >> want one, let me know. >> Pulled from working VT-220 compatible Nokia terminals (rebranded as Norsk >> data Notis terminals). >> >> I was offered $5 per piece from a gold refiner, but I rather sell them to >> collectors. >> >> ... and before anyone start harassing me about scrapping working >> terminals. I announced it here on the list two years ago when I helped a >> friend clean out a storage. Of the close to 200 terminals I still have >> 60-70 left but I need to get it down to 20 in the end. So, they are also >> available. >> > Which terminals are those? Models? From jonas at otter.se Wed Feb 8 03:23:13 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:23:13 +0100 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor =?UTF-8?Q?=28UK=29=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37e37400b2e4111bf2e5c4a69ba34a53@otter.se> >> No No No ... that was T-nix followed later with U when the >> programers could >> club meat, build fire and recite most of the Alphabet*. > > I guess I'm a total anorak, but there was a TNIX.. > > [Tektronix Unix, running on a PDP11/23-based development sustem] > > -tony > I used a TNIX system for most of the 1980s, with an 8540 microprocessor emulator connected to it. IIRC TNIX was a stripped-down version of Unix version 7, with most of the programming tools and compilers and other useful stuff removed, these could be bought separately. There were Tek-specific commands added to operate the 8540. On top of that we ran Tek's Pascal development software for 8086. The first version of the compiler was rather awful; very limited symbol table capacity and lots of weird bugs. The consumption of weed and shrooms among the compiler developers must have been remarkable. The manuals are on Bitsavers. I also saw in an old thread here that Tony has an 8560 running TNIX. Nice machine, but very slow. /Jonas From bqt at softjar.se Wed Feb 8 07:36:40 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:36:40 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 Unix In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F327A68.5030604@softjar.se> On 2012-02-07 14.03, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? >> > The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think the PDP-8 >> > could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and >> > the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". >> > Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > A while back I asked about PDP-8 Unices. I don't remember any replies, though > I seem to remember some existed. I very much doubt Unix ever could run on a PDP-8. The biggest reason being the shortage of memory. However, C have nothing to do with this question, as Unix was not written in C initially. I suspect the answer to the question could be the PDP-7, on which Unix was initially implemented (in assembler). However, many would probably hardly recognize it as Unix by todays standards. Unix was rewritten in C after it had moved to the PDP-11. The PDP-7 was an 18-bit machine, so memory space was somewhat acceptable. The original PDP-11 didn't have an MMU, and Unix on that was probably a tight fit, as well as being somewhat restricted. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Feb 8 07:45:56 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 14:45:56 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F327C94.7060901@softjar.se> On 2012-02-07 14.03, ben wrote: > On 2/6/2012 7:00 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> > On Mon, 6 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: >> > >>> >> Ray Arachelian wrote: >>>> >>> (Waiting for the guys that ran real UNIX on a PDP-8 to show up and >>>> >>> say they rode T-Rex's to school.) >>> >> No, the PDP-8 Unix is one of the modern ones. Only the guys that ran >>> >> really early Unix rode T-Rexes. >> > > No No No ... that was T-nix followed later with U when the programers could > club meat, build fire and recite most of the Alphabet*. :-) There is no Unix for the PDP-8. There are, however, several timesharing OSes, and yes, people did use PDP-8s in such environments. > You seem to have a few 6502 unix style systems hacked together on the web. Crazy, if true. >> > So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running >> > Unix? The Z80 definitely did it. Maybe the 8080 could. I don't think the >> > PDP-8 could. I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, >> > and the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". >> > Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > That came up a few years ago, the pdp8 does not have ample memory to handle > Z-code. > Ben. > * No, not in Octal. I'm sure I could do it. A Z-machine implementation really does not need *that* much memory. You'll need a field, possibly two, for the Z-machine itself. After that, the rest of the memory can be used for the storage inside the Z-machine, and then cache for the code, which needs to be paged from secondary storage. No different than any Z-machine for any micro in the 80s. As for PDP-8 handling C. I'm not sure I understand the question. You can definitely have a C compiler that generates code that will execute on a PDP-8. Having a C-compiler running on the PDP-8 would be quite an effort, however. But it can be done. You just need to split the process up into many passes, with careful design. And it might take a very long time to ever compile a single file. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Feb 8 08:18:03 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2012 15:18:03 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 Z-machine (was: PDP-8 Unix) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F32841B.3070505@softjar.se> On 2012-02-08 01.37, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> >> ?I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and >>> >> the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > I am not aware of a C compiler for the PDP-8, but I think it would be > exceedingly difficult to write one if were possible at all (I've done > a lot of system and embedded code in C and debugged it in assembler, > so I know a bit about the syntactical mapping that goes on with C > abstractions to the instruction sets of MC68000s, VAXen, PDP-11s, > etc). Everything is possible. The main question is how slow it would be. >>> >> Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > I would like that too. I've even thought a lot about it. IMHO, > anyone who does it will be writing the Z-machine in PDP-8 assembler, > just like what was done for the Z-80 and the 6502 for 1970s and 1980s > micros. I_think_ the Mac Z-machine was the first written in C, but I > could easily be mistaken on that. I know there were official > Z-machines written in C for the Mac and the Amiga, and probably the > later ones on the PC (not sure about the early v3 interpreters for > DOS). > > I like Frotz. Frotz is huge compared to the 6K-8K early 8-bit > interpreters. It gets more dicey trying to ask a 12-bit machine with > 4K pages to emulate a 16-bit virtual machine. I would consider it a > win if one could fit the Z-machine code in 2 fields with enough space > left over for a 2-page system handler and a 1-page line printer > (SCRIPT) handler, using any memory above 8K for object data and game > file buffers. Three fields seems plausible. A few years back, I > assisted with a modern from-scratch Z-machine effort for ElfOS on the > 1802 (that I was showing off at an early VCFmw). On a 32K Spare Time > Gizmos Elf2000, once the interpreter was loaded and the object tables > were loaded, there was very little room to buffer the game - I think > it was on the order of 1-3 512 byte disk blocks. You can fit a v3 > game and interpreter in 32K, but to do it in less would probably > require a read-write virtual memory scheme on the object data > (fortunately, a full boat on a PDP-8 is 32K 12-bit words not 32K 8-bit > bytes - that helps too). Frotz is nice in its way, but totally unusable if you want to look at doing something on a PDP-8. I think two fields for all the code of the Z-machine itself is possible. Including drivers, yes. Depending on the size of the game, you'll have different amount of memory to play with after that. I assume you by "object tables" mean the in-game read/write memory. I can tell that ZEMU on the PDP-11 can handle any V1 to V8 games dynamically, and takes about 32Kbyte of memory to do that. The rest is used/usable by the game itself. To write a V3-specific interpreter, as well as skipping some fancy screen handling that ZEMU do, it should need way less. > Strangely enough, I was just thinking about a 12-bit Z-machine this > week. Anyone out there have 12-bit coding experience and have time to > answer a few questions about OS/8 and file interchange from the 8-bit > outer world? Sure. Go ahead. And then allison wrote: On 02/07/2012 05:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> I don't think the PDP-8 could. >> I gotta say that I don't think so either. >> > It's not impossible though you might have a hardware abstraction to > deal with recursion and addressing. But it will not be pretty. Right. You need to make some design decisions on how to implement some things in software that other machines do in hardware, but things like a stack is not really that hard to write. >>>> Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. >> I would like that too. I've even thought a lot about it. IMHO, >> anyone who does it will be writing the Z-machine in PDP-8 assembler, >> just like what was done for the Z-80 and the 6502 for 1970s and 1980s >> micros. I _think_ the Mac Z-machine was the first written in C, but I >> could easily be mistaken on that. I know there were official >> Z-machines written in C for the Mac and the Amiga, and probably the >> later ones on the PC (not sure about the early v3 interpreters for >> DOS). >> > Its likely doable but it would take work. Keep in mind that an -8 maxes > memory at 32Kwords. that means bigger will have to have a mechanism > for swapping to storage. > > Keep in mind the Z80 did not ahve many of the addressing modes of C. Right. A Z-machine for the PDP-8 is definitely doable. It might not be that fast, but it would work. >> A few years back, I >> assisted with a modern from-scratch Z-machine effort for ElfOS on the >> 1802 (that I was showing off at an early VCFmw). On a 32K Spare Time >> Gizmos Elf2000, once the interpreter was loaded and the object tables >> were loaded, there was very little room to buffer the game - I think >> it was on the order of 1-3 512 byte disk blocks. You can fit a v3 >> game and interpreter in 32K, but to do it in less would probably >> require a read-write virtual memory scheme on the object data >> (fortunately, a full boat on a PDP-8 is 32K 12-bit words not 32K 8-bit >> bytes - that helps too). > That and if you do text in six bit ascii you get two cars to a word. Right. But that is not much help for the Z-machine, which packs text inside the games in its own format anyway. There is very little text required in the Z-machine itself. >> Strangely enough, I was just thinking about a 12-bit Z-machine this >> week. Anyone out there have 12-bit coding experience and have time to >> answer a few questions about OS/8 and file interchange from the 8-bit >> outer world? >> > Some here, not a lot as I've not run OS/8 in a long time. FYI > a suitable dev system would be a DECmateII or III running OS278. If you have questions about OS/8 or PDP-8 issues, feel free to ask. I only read this list in digest mode, so please cc me directly as well. > The biggest thing to watch for in PDP8 code is recursion as you > need a software stack and handler to preserve data/addresses. Not really needed. The Z-machine implementation itself is more or less an abstract CPU, and does not really need to do any recursion. However, the Z-machine games themself can do recursion. But as a stack for this purpose is a part of the requirement of the Z-machine itself, it will just work, if you implement the Z-machine. > The DECmates had the 6120 and that implemented IOTs to create > a address and data stack( hardware can be built to do that in > any omnibus 8). The unique PDP-8 IO made doing things like that > more common than would be guessed. Right. But on an Omnibus machine, the easy way would be to instead have a small subroutine that push/pop on the stack, instead of having to built new hardware. Johnny From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Feb 8 10:06:14 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 09:06:14 -0700 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: > Using an MSCP SCSI > controller bypasses this dance and leaves memory as the critical > resource. Ethan, Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? Kevin From tingox at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 13:34:31 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:34:31 +0100 Subject: Nokia terminals (Was: Apple ][ disk/game server) In-Reply-To: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> References: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: 2012/2/8 G?ran Axelsson > Finally, after digging out a terminal, reconfigured my new web server and > installed samba on it I have some pictures to show of the terminals. > > http://www.neab.net/temp/ > http://www.neab.net/temp/**Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-front.jpgFront view > http://www.neab.net/temp/**Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-back.jpgModel number on the back > http://www.neab.net/temp/**Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd.jpgKeyboard without overlay > http://www.neab.net/temp/**Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd-**overlay.jpgOverlay for the Notis programs > > This is of a later version of the monitor, there is an earlier version > that is almost identical on the outside. The main difference is that the > model name is "NOTIS" instead of "VDU 302 S". The only difference I've > found in the working of the terminal is that the NOTIS terminal doesn't > have support for reverse video. > On the inside there are a couple of details. > - The earlier keyboard use an 8048 ceramic EPROM processor, Later models > have a plastic OTP 8048. Only difference on the outside is the screws. > Straight heads on earlier and philips on later. > - The earlier main board have a few wires and a piggy back mounted chip. > It also have an RC-circuit added close to the clock circuit. > - The earlier terminals use a ceramic 80186 in a socket, later terminals > use a PLCC in a socket. The pinout seems to be the same of the sockets. > > I guess that these terminals were adapted for use with the NOTIS program > set, corresponding to the office program suite today. There are a number of > non-standard keys on the keyboard, for example "regret", "copy", "strike", > "write", "help", "end"... (freely translated from Swedish). It contains 121 > keys in total. > > There is a connector for an external mouse on the back, but I haven't seen > any yet. It also looks like there is a graphic mode when the self test is > running, but I haven't found any instructions on how to turn it on. You get > to the setup menu and self test by pressing Ctrl + help twice. Some day > I'll try to reverse engineer the software to see what else fun there is in > this terminal. > > The memory in the terminal is made up of 8 x 41464 (256 kbyte) so the > memory seems to be enough to support graphics. > Other IC:s on the main board: > - NEC D7220AD graphic controller > - 2 x 27512 EPROM > - KM2817A-25 2kbyte EEPROM > - 2 x Intel P82530 serial comm controller, one in socket, one soldered > - Fujitsu MB113T400, 40 pin DIL in socket.... haven't found any data on > this one, video scan generator possibly? Placed next to two crystal > oscillators, 32MHz and 36.389MHz. > - Fujitsu MB113T401, 28 pin DIL in socket... haven't found any data on > this either. Placed between the memory and the connector to the analog > board. > - 74S472 with label, 512x8 bit prom, probably character generator > - Approximately 40 more TTL and analogue IC:s > > The terminal seems to be a custom adaption of a Nokia terminal for Norsk > Data AS. I also have a generic serial terminal from Nokia that is white but > the chassi seems to be cast from the same mould. > > Here we have the terminal running connected to my ND-110 Satellite. The > yellowish tint is because of the white balance in my camera. The phosphor > is white as in the top and bottom of the picture. > http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/**File:SINTRAN_III_Boot_screen.**jpg > More about ND on the wiki http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/**Main_Page > > Any other questions? ;-) > neab.net (and www.neab.net) isn't resolving right now. Do you know why? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From iamvirtual at gmail.com Wed Feb 8 16:42:08 2012 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 15:42:08 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I have looked at the Unix 1972 code that is on Bitsavers. I would think that the kernel could be ported to use software math. In place of an RK05 and an RF drive, a single (or pair of) RK05 drive should work, but would be much slower. I am considering porting the code to run on my PDP-11/05 that has 32kW of core memory, a single RK05 drive and a ASR-33 teletype. Any interest from any others? Ultimately, I want the Unix distribution to run on my PDP-11/20. --barrym On Tuesday, February 7, 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 12:51 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> So, does anyone have a record for oldest or weakest computer running Unix? > > The oldest/weakest I've personally run UNIX on was an 11/24 w/dual > RL02 (10MB each) and 2MB of RAM. It's far from a record. If I can > find an affordable EAE for my PDP-11/20 and figure out how to sub the > swap disk with something other than an unobtanium fixed-head disk, I'd > run it there, but that's a long-term project. > >>> The Z80 definitely did it. > > UNIX? Really? Or just something with a Bourne-like command line? > >>> I don't think the PDP-8 could. > > I gotta say that I don't think so either. > >>> I've been trying to figure out if the PDP-8 could handle C, and >>> the answers I get range from "I don't know" to "Definitely not". > > I am not aware of a C compiler for the PDP-8, but I think it would be > exceedingly difficult to write one if were possible at all (I've done > a lot of system and embedded code in C and debugged it in assembler, > so I know a bit about the syntactical mapping that goes on with C > abstractions to the instruction sets of MC68000s, VAXen, PDP-11s, > etc). > >>> Something I'd really like to see is a Z-machine running on the PDP-8. > > I would like that too. I've even thought a lot about it. IMHO, > anyone who does it will be writing the Z-machine in PDP-8 assembler, > just like what was done for the Z-80 and the 6502 for 1970s and 1980s > micros. I _think_ the Mac Z-machine was the first written in C, but I > could easily be mistaken on that. I know there were official > Z-machines written in C for the Mac and the Amiga, and probably the > later ones on the PC (not sure about the early v3 interpreters for > DOS). > > I like Frotz. Frotz is huge compared to the 6K-8K early 8-bit > interpreters. It gets more dicey trying to ask a 12-bit machine with > 4K pages to emulate a 16-bit virtual machine. I would consider it a > win if one could fit the Z-machine code in 2 fields with enough space > left over for a 2-page system handler and a 1-page line printer > (SCRIPT) handler, using any memory above 8K for object data and game > file buffers. Three fields seems plausible. A few years back, I > assisted with a modern from-scratch Z-machine effort for ElfOS on the > 1802 (that I was showing off at an early VCFmw). On a 32K Spare Time > Gizmos Elf2000, once the interpreter was loaded and the object tables > were loaded, there was very little room to buffer the game - I think > it was on the order of 1-3 512 byte disk blocks. You can fit a v3 > game and interpreter in 32K, but to do it in less would probably > require a read-write virtual memory scheme on the object data > (fortunately, a full boat on a PDP-8 is 32K 12-bit words not 32K 8-bit > bytes - that helps too). > > Strangely enough, I was just thinking about a 12-bit Z-machine this > week. Anyone out there have 12-bit coding experience and have time to > answer a few questions about OS/8 and file interchange from the 8-bit > outer world? > > -ethan > > From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Wed Feb 8 18:01:09 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 00:01:09 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS Message-ID: <01OBRL3PVITU000JLZ@beyondthepale.ie> On Feb 8, 2012, at 1:21 PM, David Riley wrote: > >On Feb 8, 2012, at 1:14 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Feb 8, 2012 8:49 AM, "Kevin Reynolds" wrote: >>> >>> Can I put in a SCSI controller on the QBUS of a microvax II or III? I >> really want to keep the QBUS as it is entirely different than everything >> else I have. Do you know if there is SCSI support inVMS 5.2? >>> Kevin >> >> You are not really concerned about native SCSI support but rather MSCP >> (disk) and TMSCP (tape). If the OS supports an RQDX controller it should >> support an MSCP SCSI controller such as the usual CMD CQD Q-bus SCSI >> controllers. > >To my knowledge, VMS doesn't really even see past the MSCP at all; there's >not much way it could distinguish between a SCSI disk on a CQD-220 and an >MFM disk on an RDQX3. > > Perhaps some confusion arises due to VMS having native support for SCSI controllers in later machines such as the Microvax 3100? Lack of this native support in early versions of VMS would cause difficulties using the SCSI controllers in a 3100 but would not be an issue for a QBUS SCSI controller which emulates an MSCP controller. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tpresence at hotmail.com Wed Feb 8 21:12:50 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:12:50 -0700 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> References: , , , , , , , <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net>,<4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > allison wrote: > > There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. > > Some releases of VMS support the KZQSA, which is a native SCSI > controller (no MSCP or other emulation). Doesn't that mean that there > is some SCSI support in VMS? > > > This is kind of strange. I didn't see that response from allison, and given he had a conflicting response to my original post...IS there a pending message that didn't make it to the entire list? I have seen that sometimes I get the response to a message before the actual message itself. Very strange. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Feb 9 01:40:10 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 08:40:10 +0100 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: References: <20120208084002.3cef271b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20120209084010.9ae52cd7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 8 Feb 2012 20:32:25 +0000 (GMT) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I will see what I can find. Thanks. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 9 02:24:37 2012 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 09:24:37 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 stuff In-Reply-To: <4F327C94.7060901@softjar.se> References: <4F327C94.7060901@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20120209082437.GA32352@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Feb 08, 2012 at 02:45:56PM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > >You seem to have a few 6502 unix style systems hacked together on the web. > > Crazy, if true. Certainly true: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LUnix Haven't tried it though, but I have a working 128 here.. perhaps I should. /P From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 9 03:45:48 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 10:45:48 +0100 Subject: Last Call: Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120209094548.GA86420@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> This is the last call for Orders. The Price for the PCBs is down to 21 Euros/PCB. Shipping is worldwide 5,50 Euros for "registered international letters" at the "Deutsche Post". The weight of an double size grant continuity card from dec (with the plastic handles) is approx 90 Gramms, that should be in the same ballpark as the boards we would let make. So the selected shipping mehtod should be good for at lest 5 boards. Paypal fees are 1,9% from the total +0,35 Euros. There are additional fees of 2.5-4% of the exchange rate to Euro. So please guys, send me Euros (yes, that's possible) so that you have this costs at your side. I simply couldn't calculate this exactly for every currency you have. I'll add an handling fee of 50 Eurocent for each order (packing material), hope that's ok for you. Currently I have the following orders (from here): Birkel, Paul A. 4 pcs Malcolm Macleod 3 pcs Pete Turnbull 2 pcs Jos Dreesen 3 pcs Jack Rubin 3 pcs Toby Thain 4 pcs There are orders from elsewhere (german forums, direct contact per mail etc). If I forgot one, please respond. This is also the last chance to get added in for others. I'll close the ordering today 12PM (MET/CET) Again the total works out like this: Jane Doe: 4 pcs. 4 x 21.00 Euros = 84.00 Euros Shipping 5.50 Euros Handling 0.50 Euros -------------------------------------- 100.00 Euros +1.9% Paypal 1.90 Euros -------------------------------------- Total 101.90 Euros For the people where all is clear now, you can send me the money (Euros!!) with paypal to holm at freibergnet.de. That's my private account (again, this is a non profit action, I do have a business, but this has nothing todo with it) I think I could get your complete address out of paypal so I can ship to this address. And last but not least: Please be patient! We will order the boards if we have the money for them, not before. It will take a while to get them and to ship them. I'll add actual messages about the process state here. Wehn I ship, you all should get the tracking code per email from me. Please complain if nothing happens.... Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 9 04:02:43 2012 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 11:02:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: Understanding the bin, [...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Feb 2012, Richard wrote: >> Actually, I have a stripped-down installation of 2.9BSD on one single RK05 >> pack including swap space. > > How much space is left in the filesystem after you add reasonable swap space? Enough to write C programs and run the compiler. Of course, I don't have anything fancy like man pages or a complete userland, it is just to have something to play with :-) (IIRC swap space is set to 256kB). Christian From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 9 04:15:47 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 02:15:47 -0800 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F332BE4.5000308@verizon.net> References: <4F32C8CC.9060804@gmail.com> <4F3313D1.9060801@verizon.net> <4F33283D.5010003@brouhaha.com> <4F332BE4.5000308@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F339CD3.7010603@brouhaha.com> allison wrote: > Which releases and where can you find a KZQSA. All kidding that was a V6 > or later controller correct? I'm certain V5.4 didn't. The VMS 5.5-2 SPD says that the KZQSA is supported. I don't have any idea whether that was the earliest release that supported it. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 06:41:25 2012 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 13:41:25 +0100 Subject: Last Call: Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? In-Reply-To: <20120209094548.GA86420@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120202121101.GB30041@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120209094548.GA86420@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <00fb01cce728$23de96c0$6b9bc440$@gmail.com> Hi Holm, Add me in for 4 boards as well, please. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven Tarthorst 1009 6708 JH Wageningen, The Netherlands -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holm Tiffe Sent: donderdag 9 februari 2012 10:46 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Last Call: Re: Who is interested in double sized PDP11/QBUS universal boards? This is the last call for Orders. The Price for the PCBs is down to 21 Euros/PCB. Shipping is worldwide 5,50 Euros for "registered international letters" at the "Deutsche Post". The weight of an double size grant continuity card from dec (with the plastic handles) is approx 90 Gramms, that should be in the same ballpark as the boards we would let make. So the selected shipping mehtod should be good for at lest 5 boards. Paypal fees are 1,9% from the total +0,35 Euros. There are additional fees of 2.5-4% of the exchange rate to Euro. So please guys, send me Euros (yes, that's possible) so that you have this costs at your side. I simply couldn't calculate this exactly for every currency you have. I'll add an handling fee of 50 Eurocent for each order (packing material), hope that's ok for you. Currently I have the following orders (from here): Birkel, Paul A. 4 pcs Malcolm Macleod 3 pcs Pete Turnbull 2 pcs Jos Dreesen 3 pcs Jack Rubin 3 pcs Toby Thain 4 pcs There are orders from elsewhere (german forums, direct contact per mail etc). If I forgot one, please respond. This is also the last chance to get added in for others. I'll close the ordering today 12PM (MET/CET) Again the total works out like this: Jane Doe: 4 pcs. 4 x 21.00 Euros = 84.00 Euros Shipping 5.50 Euros Handling 0.50 Euros -------------------------------------- 100.00 Euros +1.9% Paypal 1.90 Euros -------------------------------------- Total 101.90 Euros For the people where all is clear now, you can send me the money (Euros!!) with paypal to holm at freibergnet.de. That's my private account (again, this is a non profit action, I do have a business, but this has nothing todo with it) I think I could get your complete address out of paypal so I can ship to this address. And last but not least: Please be patient! We will order the boards if we have the money for them, not before. It will take a while to get them and to ship them. I'll add actual messages about the process state here. Wehn I ship, you all should get the tracking code per email from me. Please complain if nothing happens.... Kind Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ray at arachelian.com Thu Feb 9 07:29:15 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 08:29:15 -0500 Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F33CA2B.2070507@arachelian.com> On 02/08/2012 06:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> original price for a Lisa computer was $10,000. > But, THAT was for a working one. > No, that was for a new, working Lisa 1, and it's around what a working Lisa 1 would fetch today. This is actually a Lisa 2/10, or it might be an "XL" depending on whether MacWorks and a screen modification kit is installed. It probably has a Widget 10MB hard drive in it, whether it works or not is a good question. The 400K floppy drives aren't too hard to repair. Probably worth around $600-$800 on ebay if fully functional, with crazy shipping as it's about 50lbs. It should go for less, maybe $400? because this isn't ebay, and it's not fully working, and that's a Mac Plus mouse, not a Lisa mouse, and no other items are included, i.e. original software, manuals, etc. It's a nice Lisa for someone who wants one and lives nearby. :) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 14 00:33:01 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 22:33:01 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 2/Model 16 ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F2570A9.3090205@xs4all.nl> References: <4F2570A9.3090205@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4F3A001D.4050406@brouhaha.com> Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > There are at least five different boot ROMs for the Model II. I posted > them with some disassemblies and comment at: > http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80m2/. If someone has knowledge of > another version, please let me know. I don't know of another ROM version, but I can explain I/O port EF. It is used for drive select, density select, and side select. Bits 3 down to 0 are the drive select bits, which are active low. At any given time, either all four should be high (no drive selected), or one should be low and the other three high. Bit 6 is side select, which should be 1 for side 0, and 0 for side 1. A single-sided drive will ignore this, but for a double-sided drive it needs to be set to the correct value, even if the medium is single-sided. Bit 7 is 0 for FM (single density), and 1 for MFM (double density). The boot ROM appears to only ever write 4E or 4F (hex) to port EF. 4E will select drive 0, FM mode, side 0, while 4F selects no drive. This makes me wonder whether the documentation for bit 7 is correct; do Model II boot floppies use a single-density boot sector? If the selected drive is double-sided, Port E0 bit 1 should read 0 for a single-sided diskette in the drive, and 1 for a double-sided diskette, as sensed by the index sensor of the drive. (Double-sided diskettes have the index hole in the jacket at a different angular position, and double-sided drives have two sensors, to distinguish single-sided from double-sided media.) Later versions of the FDC card also allow the WD1791 FDC chip to be reset by writing to port E8. The data is ignored. Aside from some of my own comments that have been added, this information is summarized from the Radio Shack "Technical Reference Manual TRS-80 Model II Catalog Number 26-4921 Revised Floppy DIsk Controller Supplement". Any errors above are almost certainly mine. Eric From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 08:30:00 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:30:00 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers available Message-ID: I am helping a company dispose of some of their assets, and amongst the items are a good sized stack of Documation punch card readers. There is everything from supposedly working units to complete junkers. Most are model 200s, but some are model 600s. The widow of the owner is looking to get some decent money for these - I suggested $200 for the top grade units is fair street price, and obviously less for anything lower. There are also some convertors available to hook the Documations up to an RS-232 port, and *maybe* some CR11 cards. There are also some Maul card sorters (great name!) available, probably for considerably less. There are likely no unpunched cards available - they are spoken for. These are located outside on Philadelphia (northwest-ish), and are really either pick-up only (yourself or a pack-n-ship company), or perhaps I could be convinced to pick up when I go down there next week. There is a serious time limit on this stuff - ACT NOW. Contact me off list. ACT NOW. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Feb 17 08:07:22 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 09:07:22 -0500 Subject: Is Classiccmp Active? Message-ID: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> Is Classiccmp Active? Jerome Fine From janprunk at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 11:00:54 2012 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 18:00:54 +0100 Subject: Vintage DEC/SUN/HP/MACINTOSH workstations/servers for sale Message-ID: Hello ! I am releasing my collection of old computer stuff. I prefer personal pickup in Slovenia. Will ship to European countries, but the shipping wont be less than 40 EUR/piece. For USA or Asia shipping, you better forget it ! The equipment consists of : ### DEC ### 1 x DEC VAXstation 4000/200 - 300 EUR 1 x Digital DEC 3000 - 100 EUR 1 x Digital DEC 2000 Alpha - 100 EUR ### SUN ### 2 x SUN Sparcstation 4 - 50 EUR/each ### HP ### 3 x Hewlett Packard Appollo 9000 712/60 - 50 EUR/each 1 x Hewlett Packard PC 9000 PC-308 (XT) - 50 EUR 1 x Hewlett Packard 9000 E35 - 50 EUR ### Macintosh ### 1 x Power Macintosh 7500/100 - 50 EUR All computers were operational the last time, I checked them, but I am selling them in "AS-IS" condition, since many collect dust for some time now. So please DONT ask me either I can TEST the machines for you or provide any system/boot logs and other stuff, that requires my time. I am selling the equipment without any warranty. Its Vintage gear, what do you expect !? Please for any queries contact me directly to my E-mail address janprunk at gmail.com I don't follow the mailing list regularly. Regards, Jan From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 16 22:59:00 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 23:59:00 -0500 Subject: IBM keypunch needed in San Diego Message-ID: <4F3DDE94.2040608@snarc.net> West-coasters -- check out the post by Dave Nuding here: http://www.nycresistor.com/2012/01/15/ibm-129-card-data-recorder/ Not affiliated with me, just passing it on. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Feb 13 08:17:13 2012 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2012 15:17:13 +0100 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe Message-ID: NASA unplugs last mainframe IBM mainframes no longer a NASA workhorse IBM mainframe available for a collector ? http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/nasa-unplugs-last-mainframe -- Stephane FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez FreeDonne. From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Feb 15 18:24:46 2012 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 16:24:46 -0800 Subject: testing testing Message-ID: hello all havent seen qanything from the list since feb 9th please piong back if you read this chris From steve_spiller at msn.com Wed Feb 15 12:41:42 2012 From: steve_spiller at msn.com (Stephen Spiller) Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:41:42 -0800 Subject: VAX Maintenance Handbook, VAX-11/750 Message-ID: Does anybody have a mirror of this online somewhere? http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,2827 I find myself in possession of an 11/750 that doesn't quite work right and it seems this would aid in troubleshooting the thing. Thanks,Steve From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 19:17:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:17:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: List (Was: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> References: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> Has the list gone down? I haven't received anything in 5 days. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 19:05:36 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 17:05:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: <4F33CA2B.2070507@arachelian.com> References: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> <4F33CA2B.2070507@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20120214170451.Q98977@shell.lmi.net> That was the last message that I got from the list! Did it die a violent death? On Thu, 9 Feb 2012, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 02/08/2012 06:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> original price for a Lisa computer was $10,000. > > But, THAT was for a working one. > > > No, that was for a new, working Lisa 1, and it's around what a working > Lisa 1 would fetch today. > > This is actually a Lisa 2/10, or it might be an "XL" depending on > whether MacWorks and a screen modification kit is installed. > > It probably has a Widget 10MB hard drive in it, whether it works or not > is a good question. The 400K floppy drives aren't too hard to repair. > > Probably worth around $600-$800 on ebay if fully functional, with crazy > shipping as it's about 50lbs. It should go for less, maybe $400? > because this isn't ebay, and it's not fully working, and that's a Mac > Plus mouse, not a Lisa mouse, and no other items are included, i.e. > original software, manuals, etc. > > It's a nice Lisa for someone who wants one and lives nearby. :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 14 18:56:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 16:56:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details (fwd) Message-ID: <20120214165507.N98977@shell.lmi.net> Can somebody explain what happened? ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 16:43:19 -0600 (CST) From: Mail Delivery Subsystem To: cisin at xenosoft.com Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details The original message was received at Thu, 9 Feb 2012 16:35:35 -0600 (CST) from shell.lmi.net [66.117.140.246] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... Deferred: huey.classiccmp.org.: Host huey.classiccmp.org. is down Message could not be delivered for 5 days Message will be deleted from queue On Thu, 9 Feb 2012, Ray Arachelian wrote: > No, that was for a new, working Lisa 1, and it's around what a working > Lisa 1 would fetch today. I like the idea that a vintage computer is worth the same as its original new price! Apple I $666 TRS80 $599 5150 $1325 (bare) Who's got a complete pricelist? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 14 18:27:51 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 16:27:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: two more P112 kits left Message-ID: I have two more P112 kits left. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 12:42:32 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:42:32 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 9:30 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I am helping a company dispose of some of their assets, and amongst > the items are a good sized stack of Documation punch card readers. > There is everything from ?supposedly working units to complete > junkers. Most are model 200s, but some are model 600s. The widow of > the owner is looking to get some decent money for these - I suggested > $200 for the top grade units is fair street price, and obviously less > for anything lower. > > These are located outside on Philadelphia (northwest-ish), and are > really either pick-up only (yourself or a pack-n-ship company), or > perhaps I could be convinced to pick up when I go down there next > week. I am not nearby, as you know, so personal pick-up would not be possible. If you are favorably disposed to do a pickup next week, I might be interest in participating in this. I am currently looking at coming out for VCFe in May. I have no specific needs - I'm mostly responding because I know card processing equipment does not come up often. I have an 029 punch that I need to clean and restore, but at least it's stored indoors (i.e. not in a barn) waiting for me to have the time to do the work. If converters or CR-11s are not available, that is not an issue for me - I am able to roll my own interface hardware if needed. I probably wouldn't be reading card decks on a PDP-11 anyway, so while I wouldn't turn away a CR-11, I wouldn't require one either. I do not know the difference between a Documation 200 and a Documation 600. Why would one want one over the other? Thanks, -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 12:43:19 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:43:19 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 1:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: Grr.... meant to go to Will only, not the whole list plus Will. Sorry. -ethan From auringer at tds.net Tue Feb 14 14:59:59 2012 From: auringer at tds.net (auringer tds.net) Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2012 14:59:59 -0600 Subject: List test Message-ID: Is it down, or did I get dropped? From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Feb 17 12:25:19 2012 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:25:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about 1980s Hackers (fwd) Message-ID: I am forwarding this to the list in the hopes that it reaches interested parties in the UK and/or Australia (not sure where this production is intended to take place). Here's an opportunity to claim your 15 minutes of fame. See below forwarded message. Reply-to: Janie Parker -- Sellam Ismail VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:50:40 -0800 (PST) From: Janie Parker To: vcf at vintage.org Subject: Television Program about 1980s Hackers Hi, I am writing to tell you about a project that Matchbox Pictures is making for Channel 10 called Underground. It is based around the hackers working in Melbourne around 1988/89. To help tell the story , we need to accurately replicate the equipment that was used, Commodore 64, Amstrads etc and then the information that is on the screen. We are searching for people that may collect this equipment to loan, sell or hire to us. In our story the hackers get into various Organisations including the US Military/Police/University via the use of a modem. We will need to replicate this by programming codes to make these visuals. Also in the project we have a scene where we are recreating a Computer Market- we will be making up several tables of equipment from the period. This is a scene where we would like collectors to bring along their equipment and be an extra for the day. So there are essentially 3 areas where we would love to get some help from your organisation members. I was wondering if you might be able to put out a message to the group and we could offer you a souvenir from the film, a signed photograph or similar. We are very happy to hear about your organisation and realise that it can be a very valuable resource and i hope we can make it worthwhile and interesting for you. Please feel free to call me to discuss further, Cheers Janie P From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Feb 17 12:46:48 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:46:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Is Classiccmp Active? In-Reply-To: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at "Feb 17, 12 09:07:22 am" Message-ID: <201202171846.q1HIkm4G028596@floodgap.com> > Is Classiccmp Active? No, I ate it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "A View To A Kill" --------------------------------- From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Feb 17 13:05:40 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:05:40 +0000 Subject: Is Classiccmp Active? In-Reply-To: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> References: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> Message-ID: I'm here... On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Is Classiccmp Active? > > Jerome Fine -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want. ?So now, they'll all vote Republican. ?It's like when I want some bread, I won't settle for half a loaf. ?Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken glass." -Stephen Colbert From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 13:22:20 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:22:20 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 2/Model 16 ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F3A001D.4050406@brouhaha.com> References: , <4F2570A9.3090205@xs4all.nl>, <4F3A001D.4050406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F3E386C.16694.5BC633@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2012 at 22:33, Eric Smith wrote: > Later versions of the FDC card also allow the WD1791 FDC chip to be > reset by writing to port E8. The data is ignored. > > Aside from some of my own comments that have been added, this > information is summarized from the Radio Shack "Technical Reference > Manual TRS-80 Model II Catalog Number 26-4921 Revised Floppy DIsk > Controller Supplement". Any errors above are almost certainly mine. 26-491, according to what I have, is the standard Model II tech ref. Where does one find the supplement? Was the schematic of the late model FDC ever published? I've seen 2 versions of the late model unit--one with the "disable head load timer" jumpers (Rev. A) and the other without (original late model). Were there any subsequent revisions? I've had good results with the late model FDC supporting standard PC 1.44MB/1.2MB/1.23MB drives without making up adapter cables. Just populate the 34-pin header pads below J0, jumper pins 21-22 on J0 with a simple shunt and connect pins 10-14 and 12-16 on the new header. You can use a standard PC floppy cable (with a twist on the A: drive) and drives (preset to DS1). Seems to work fine. If you needed a real READY signal, many 1.2M 5.25" drives can be jumpered or option pads connected on some 3.5" drives to provide a READY instead of a "disk changed" signal. Many 1.44M 3.5" drives can be modified to spin at 360 RPM, so they're basically indistinguishable from their 8" cousins. --Chuck From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:34:33 2012 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:34:33 -0500 Subject: testing testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Its aliveeeee On Feb 17, 2012 2:27 PM, "Chris Halarewich" wrote: > hello all > havent seen qanything from the list since feb 9th please piong back if > you read this > > chris > From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Feb 17 13:37:13 2012 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:37:13 +0000 Subject: testing testing Message-ID: <1831292759-1329507448-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2017205884-@b12.c7.bise6.blackberry> I'm seeing the messages. ------Original Message------ From: Chris Halarewich Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: CCTalk ReplyTo: CCTalk Subject: testing testing Sent: Feb 15, 2012 7:24 PM hello all havent seen qanything from the list since feb 9th please piong back if you read this chris Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Feb 17 13:45:28 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:45:28 +0000 Subject: Looking for (retired) IBM CE with System/360 experience Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC169@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> The Living Computer Museum project of Vulcan, Inc., is looking to hire an expert on IBM System/360 hardware maintenance to guide the restoration of a 360/40 which we have acquired. The official job posting can be found at https://jobs.vulcan.com/ as Sr. Systems Engineer (Vintage), job ID 2258, posted 13 Feb 2012. (There doesn't appear to be any way to provide a link directly to the posting because of the programming model used.) I'm happy to answer questions, in the group or offline. I will ignore any flame fest similar to the last time we posted a job. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:50:19 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:50:19 -0500 Subject: List (Was: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9B47F597-5125-4277-8652-F2F2A56A1329@gmail.com> On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Has the list gone down? > > I haven't received anything in 5 days. Yes, I noticed my productivity had increased as well. :-) classiccmp.org (the website, and presumably the entire host) was down for a while as well, but appears to have revived. - Dave From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:53:30 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:53:30 -0600 Subject: testing testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: test seems to of worked as i am seeing it On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hello all > havent seen qanything from the list since feb 9th please piong back if > you read this > > chris > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:56:13 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:56:13 -0600 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hopefully some hackspace trys to get it hehehe From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 13:57:32 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:57:32 -0600 Subject: Is Classiccmp Active? In-Reply-To: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> References: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> Message-ID: its been rather quiet On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 8:07 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Is Classiccmp Active? > > Jerome Fine > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 17 13:58:00 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:58:00 -0700 Subject: Is Classiccmp Active? In-Reply-To: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> References: <4F3E5F1A.2080908@compsys.to> Message-ID: In article <4F3E5F1A.2080908 at compsys.to>, "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > Is Classiccmp Active? FYI, a good way to know the state of affairs when ccmp is unavailable is to join the IRC channel #classiccmp on freenode -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Feb 17 13:58:55 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:58:55 +0000 Subject: testing testing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pong On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 12:24 AM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > hello all > ? ? havent seen qanything from the list since feb 9th please piong back if > you read this > > chris -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "Yes, Obama duped young people by not doing every single thing they want. ?So now, they'll all vote Republican. ?It's like when I want some bread, I won't settle for half a loaf. ?Instead, I will have a muffin made of broken glass." -Stephen Colbert From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:01:25 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:01:25 -0600 Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: <20120214170451.Q98977@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com> <20120208152933.E43095@shell.lmi.net> <4F33CA2B.2070507@arachelian.com> <20120214170451.Q98977@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ask drwest on the irc freenode #classiccmp From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 17 14:05:07 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:05:07 -0700 Subject: VAX Maintenance Handbook, VAX-11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Stephen Spiller writes: > Does anybody have a mirror of this online somewhere? > http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,2827 I find myself in possession of an > 11/750 that doesn't quite work right and it seems this would aid in > troubleshooting the thing. Thanks,Steve I rebuilt as much of the stuff that was mirrored on vt100.net as I could. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 17 14:16:48 2012 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:16:48 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Re: TRS-80 Model II floppy controller In-Reply-To: <4F3C0139.6000804@xs4all.nl> References: <4F3C0139.6000804@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4F3EB5B0.6070306@xs4all.nl> Hi Eric, > [Also sent to cctalk, which appears to be down at the moment.] > > Fred Jan Kraan wrote: >> There are at least five different boot ROMs for the Model II. I posted >> them with some disassemblies and comment at: >> http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80m2/. If someone has knowledge of >> another version, please let me know. > I don't know of another ROM version, but I can explain I/O port EF. It > is used for drive select, density select, and side select. > > Bits 3 down to 0 are the drive select bits, which are active low. At > any given time, either all four should be high (no drive selected), or > one should be low and the other three high. > > Bit 6 is side select, which should be 1 for side 0, and 0 for side 1. A > single-sided drive will ignore this, but for a double-sided drive it > needs to be set to the correct value, even if the medium is single-sided. > > Bit 7 is 0 for FM (single density), and 1 for MFM (double density). > > The boot ROM appears to only ever write 4E or 4F (hex) to port EF. 4E > will select drive 0, FM mode, side 0, while 4F selects no drive. This > makes me wonder whether the documentation for bit 7 is correct; do Model > II boot floppies use a single-density boot sector? Yes, they do. Weird, but probably more 'standard'. > > If the selected drive is double-sided, Port E0 bit 1 should read 0 for a > single-sided diskette in the drive, and 1 for a double-sided diskette, > as sensed by the index sensor of the drive. (Double-sided diskettes > have the index hole in the jacket at a different angular position, and > double-sided drives have two sensors, to distinguish single-sided from > double-sided media.) > > Later versions of the FDC card also allow the WD1791 FDC chip to be > reset by writing to port E8. The data is ignored. > > Aside from some of my own comments that have been added, this > information is summarized from the Radio Shack "Technical Reference > Manual TRS-80 Model II Catalog Number 26-4921 Revised Floppy Disk > Controller Supplement". Any errors above are almost certainly mine. > > Eric > Thanks, I updated the comment in the disassemblies. Most of the information is also in the 1980 version of the Reference Manual, but not the E8 port. Fred Jan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 17 14:35:02 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:35:02 +0100 Subject: List (Was: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001d01ccedb3$a3a46290$eaed27b0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Fred Cisin > Verzonden: woensdag 15 februari 2012 2:17 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: List (Was: Imaging OSI disks > > Has the list gone down? > > I haven't received anything in 5 days. Yep, but now it's online again... Yipie !! -Rik From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:48:35 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:48:35 -0600 Subject: List test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: server issues from what i have seen in the irc chanel freenode #classiccmp On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 2:59 PM, auringer tds.net wrote: > Is it down, or did I get dropped? > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:54:18 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:54:18 -0600 Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about 1980s Hackers (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: this should be put out to the hackspaces in those regions On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 12:25 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > I am forwarding this to the list in the hopes that it reaches interested > parties in the UK and/or Australia (not sure where this production is > intended to take place). Here's an opportunity to claim your 15 minutes > of fame. See below forwarded message. > > Reply-to: Janie Parker > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > VintageTech > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always > simple. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:50:40 -0800 (PST) > From: Janie Parker > To: vcf at vintage.org > Subject: Television Program about 1980s Hackers > > Hi, > > I am writing to tell you about a project that Matchbox Pictures is making > for Channel 10 called Underground. It is based around the hackers working > in Melbourne around 1988/89. > > To help tell the story , we need to accurately replicate the equipment > that was used, Commodore 64, Amstrads etc and then the information that is > on the screen. We are searching for people that may collect this equipment > to loan, sell or hire to us. > > In our story the hackers get into various Organisations including the US > Military/Police/University via the use of a modem. We will need to > replicate this by programming codes to make these visuals. > > Also in the project we have a scene where we are recreating a Computer > Market- we will be making up several tables of equipment from the period. > This is a scene where we would like collectors to bring along their > equipment and be an extra for the day. > > So there are essentially 3 areas where we would love to get some help from > your organisation members. I was wondering if you might be able to put out > a message to the group and we could offer you a souvenir from the film, a > signed photograph or similar. > > We are very happy to hear about your organisation and realise that it can > be a very valuable resource and i hope we can make it worthwhile and > interesting for you. > > Please feel free to call me to discuss further, > > Cheers Janie P > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 17 14:54:51 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:54:51 -0700 Subject: List test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "auringer tds.net" writes: > Is it down, or did I get dropped? In order: yes (but not anymore obviously) and no. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 14:56:53 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 15:56:53 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If you are favorably disposed to do a pickup next week, I might be > interest in participating in this. ?I am currently looking at coming > out for VCFe in May. I will not be at VCFe - I will be on my annual Western roadtrip, in the Bay Area that weekend (I think). -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 17 14:58:11 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:58:11 -0700 Subject: Thanks to Jay West for all things classic computer Message-ID: I'd like to thank Jay West publicly for graciously providing us with bandwidth, storage space, server setups and so-on to support our little endeavours. More importantly, Jay donates his personal time to maintain the infrastructure we have all come to depend on. You may wish to express your thanks, as I did, by making a donation to help cover costs and express your appreciation. Please note that Jay has not asked me for any help in this regard, but considering all he does for me (hosting bitsavers, manx and my computer graphics museum site) I felt it only proper. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 17 15:39:16 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:39:16 -0700 Subject: xml manifest for ROM/PROM dumps? Message-ID: I was just thinking that when we dump a ROM/PROM contents we get a binary file out. In order to understand that binary file we need to know some metadata about the data, such as: - what is the organization of the chip/data? Is it 2048x1 bit or is it 256x8 bits? - is it a character generator table for a terminal? - is it microcode for a CPU? - is it code for a commercial microcontroller/microprocessor? if so, which chip is it for? (8086, 8051, 6809, etc.) - what part number information is on the chip package? - if there is a printed label on the packge, what does it say? (i.e. version number label on an EPROM) - who performed the dump of the data? what is their contact information? It seems to me that this small amount of metadata could easily be housed in an XML manifest file and an XML schema could describe the allowed tags and attributes and their expected values. Yeah, I know XML is "bloated", but there are plenty of tools for processing XML files and there are editors that are schema aware and prompt you for allowed elements. The schema can be made extensible if there is a need for that. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From sander.reiche at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 15:46:08 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:46:08 +0100 Subject: VAX Maintenance Handbook, VAX-11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The 'Antonio' mirror is actually here: http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/antonio/ek-vaxv3-hb-001.pdf On Wed, Feb 15, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Stephen Spiller wrote: > > Does anybody have a mirror of this online somewhere? http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,2827 I find myself in possession of an 11/750 that doesn't quite work right and it seems this would aid in troubleshooting the thing. Thanks,Steve > > > -- ~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system, ? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr From ss at allegro.com Fri Feb 17 15:47:20 2012 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:47:20 -0800 Subject: List (Was: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <26B3856B-3512-4318-B353-AD42338788EB@allegro.com> Hi, Ditto. On Feb 14, 2012, at 5:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Has the list gone down? > > I haven't received anything in 5 days. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 15:14:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 21:14:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: List test In-Reply-To: from "auringer tds.net" at Feb 14, 12 02:59:59 pm Message-ID: > > Is it down, or did I get dropped? > It was down here (as in 'I got no messages') for nearly a week. It seems to be back now (and a big 'Thank you') to the chap who fixed it :-)) -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Feb 17 15:58:16 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:58:16 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 2/Model 16 ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F3E386C.16694.5BC633@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F2570A9.3090205@xs4all.nl>, <4F3A001D.4050406@brouhaha.com> <4F3E386C.16694.5BC633@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F3ECD78.3000106@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > 26-491, according to what I have, The ones I've seen are marked 26-4921. > is the standard Model II tech ref. Where does one find the supplement? I found a PDF online at http://www.pestingers.net/PDFs/Other_computers/Radio_Shack/MODII_16_TRM_FDC_REV.pdf > Was the schematic of the late model FDC ever published? The supplement contains a schematic, which presumably is one of the late revs. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 17 15:59:19 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 16:59:19 -0500 Subject: DEC 874-D power controller Message-ID: <4F3ECDB7.1060504@neurotica.com> Hey, does anyone have an electronic copy of the schematics for the DEC 874-D power controller? I looked on bitsavers and didn't see anything there, my paper originals are 1200 miles away, and I have an 874-D "buzzing" and dropping power periodically. Yuck! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 16:03:46 2012 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:03:46 -0500 Subject: List (Was: Imaging OSI disks In-Reply-To: <9B47F597-5125-4277-8652-F2F2A56A1329@gmail.com> References: <4F30CE47.1010502@brouhaha.com> <20120214171633.S98977@shell.lmi.net> <9B47F597-5125-4277-8652-F2F2A56A1329@gmail.com> Message-ID: Someone realized they forgot to plug back in whatever that cable was after they got done using the outlet for the vaccume.... On Feb 17, 2012 4:52 PM, "David Riley" wrote: > On Feb 14, 2012, at 8:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Has the list gone down? > > > > I haven't received anything in 5 days. > > Yes, I noticed my productivity had increased as well. :-) > > classiccmp.org (the website, and presumably the entire host) was down for > a while as well, but appears to have revived. > > > - Dave > > > From ss at allegro.com Fri Feb 17 16:04:07 2012 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:04:07 -0800 Subject: PDP-8 Unix was Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)? In-Reply-To: <1328753180.43866.YahooMailClassic@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1328753180.43866.YahooMailClassic@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50DA0F27-B0B1-4968-B23B-F5D1B2038CEF@allegro.com> Re: On Feb 8, 2012, at 6:06 PM, William Maddox wrote: > The Accent OS could switch among multiple microcoded instruction > sets upon a context switch. Spice Lisp (forerunner of CMU Common > Lisp) had its own Lisp-machine-like instruction set, while the OS > and system utilities ran the Pascal (Q-code) instruction set. > I don't know if any of this ever escaped from CMU, however. Burroughs B1700 / B1800 / B1900 series did this, too (circa 1973?) The B1700 ran microcode via a "pico code" interpreter, and each program could have its own instruction set. IIRC, there were two COBOL instruction sets (two sets of microcode): one for programs using a small number of variables (hence, fewer address bits needed), and one for large numbers of variables. Plus, different microcodes for the FORTRAN and ALGOL, perhaps others. Stan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 17 16:17:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:17:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about 1980s Hackers In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Feb 17, 12 10:25:19 am Message-ID: > > > I am forwarding this to the list in the hopes that it reaches interested > parties in the UK and/or Australia (not sure where this production is > intended to take place). Here's an opportunity to claim your 15 minutes > of fame. See below forwarded message. A few comments... 1) I can find nothing to suggest that this has anythign to do with the UK. The televisoin company is not a UK one (AFAIK), and while is at least one small village in England called Melbourne, I cna't beleive it had much of a hacker./cracker community. 2) Are common home computers of that period really that hard to find now? I would be very suprised if there wasn't at least one C64 listed on E-bay at hte momnet. 3) I don;'t wish to start a flamwar, but I've head unpleasant stories of people who've lent genuine atiques (furniture, etc) to film/TV companies and had it returned damaged (sometimes deliberately modified) with the comment 'our insurers will pay'. Err, no, money doesn;'t fix everything. Even for soemthing common lie ka C64 I'd want quite a bit in writing before lending it. 4) Most importantly, I do realise the word 'hacker' is misued by journalists nad that the common usage means a computer criminal ( to the extend I tend to refer t o'hackery' rather than 'hacking' for (legal) modifications, etc). But amongst technical people, includign the sort who are likely to have such hardware, a 'hacker' is not a criminal, and to suggst it is insulting. It also shows a certain lack of research o nthe aprt of the TV compnay. I know that I wouldn't want to have anythign to do with an organisation that wished misuse the word 'hacker' (and thus insult me) in this way. -tony > > Reply-to: Janie Parker > > -- > > Sellam Ismail VintageTech > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com > > Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap...The truth is always simple. > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2012 00:50:40 -0800 (PST) > From: Janie Parker > To: vcf at vintage.org > Subject: Television Program about 1980s Hackers > > Hi, > > I am writing to tell you about a project that Matchbox Pictures is making > for Channel 10 called Underground. It is based around the hackers working > in Melbourne around 1988/89. > > To help tell the story , we need to accurately replicate the equipment > that was used, Commodore 64, Amstrads etc and then the information that is > on the screen. We are searching for people that may collect this equipment > to loan, sell or hire to us. > > In our story the hackers get into various Organisations including the US > Military/Police/University via the use of a modem. We will need to > replicate this by programming codes to make these visuals. > > Also in the project we have a scene where we are recreating a Computer > Market- we will be making up several tables of equipment from the period. > This is a scene where we would like collectors to bring along their > equipment and be an extra for the day. > > So there are essentially 3 areas where we would love to get some help from > your organisation members. I was wondering if you might be able to put out > a message to the group and we could offer you a souvenir from the film, a > signed photograph or similar. > > We are very happy to hear about your organisation and realise that it can > be a very valuable resource and i hope we can make it worthwhile and > interesting for you. > > Please feel free to call me to discuss further, > > Cheers Janie P > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Feb 17 16:45:00 2012 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:45:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Documation card readers available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Feb 2012, Ethan Dicks wrote: > If converters or CR-11s are not available, that is not an issue for me > - I am able to roll my own interface hardware if needed. I probably > wouldn't be reading card decks on a PDP-11 anyway, so while I wouldn't > turn away a CR-11, I wouldn't require one either. You can't go wrong with Brian Knittel's USB interface for the Documation: http://media.ibm1130.org/sim/cardread.zip Fairly simply build, works well. > I do not know the difference between a Documation 200 and a Documation > 600. Why would one want one over the other? Speed (285 cards/minute vs. 600 cards/minute). I'd also prefer the newer models (600 or 1000). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 16:49:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:49:09 -0800 Subject: Lisa in Kansas City, mo In-Reply-To: References: <4F32FD61.9010909@jwsss.com>, <20120214170451.Q98977@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4F3E68E5.2055.1191DC2@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2012 at 14:01, Adrian Stoness wrote: > ask drwest on the irc Hmmm, I just set my browser to http://www.classiccmp.org. "He's dead, Jim." --Chuck From steve_spiller at msn.com Fri Feb 17 16:58:34 2012 From: steve_spiller at msn.com (Stephen Spiller) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:58:34 -0800 Subject: VAX Maintenance Handbook, VAX-11/750 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Thank you!! > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: VAX Maintenance Handbook, VAX-11/750 > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 13:05:07 -0700 > > > In article , > Stephen Spiller writes: > > > Does anybody have a mirror of this online somewhere? > > http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,2827 I find myself in possession of an > > 11/750 that doesn't quite work right and it seems this would aid in > > troubleshooting the thing. Thanks,Steve > > > > I rebuilt as much of the stuff that was mirrored on vt100.net as I could. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From sander.reiche at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 18:03:29 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 01:03:29 +0100 Subject: 3-pin hdd power connector Message-ID: Hi guys, I recently picked up a Compaq Portable 486c/66 for fun. It has no hard disk and as I was checking out the bay to see if there was something different in what it would take, I noticed it needed a 3,5" IDE disk powered by a 3-pin connector, not the usual large 4-pin molex power connector. It seems the Maxtor 7000 series was a series of drives with these added power connectors as well as some Quantum Fireballs of which I had one, but apparently has deceased on me. ?J3 ? DC Power and pin connector assignments ?------------------------------------------- ? ? ?+------------+ ? pin 1 ? ?+12 VDC ? ? ?| 4 ?3 ?2 ?1 | ? pin 2 ? ?+12 V Ground Return ? ? ?+------------+ ? pin 3 ? ?+ 5 V Ground Return ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? pin 4 ? ?+ 5 VDC ?J7 ? DC Power and pin connector assignments ?------------------------------------------- ? ? ?+---------+ ? ? ?pin 1 ? ?+ 5 VDC ? ? ?| 1 ?2 ?3 | ? ? ?pin 2 ? ?+12 VDC ? ? ?+---------+ ? ? ?pin 3 ? ?Ground Anyone know what this connector is called and maybe even call out some drive names/types for which I can start the hunt? Kind regards, Sander Reiche From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 19:08:59 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:08:59 -0800 Subject: TRS-80 Model 2/Model 16 ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F3ECD78.3000106@brouhaha.com> References: , <4F3E386C.16694.5BC633@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F3ECD78.3000106@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F3E89AB.27554.19923CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Feb 2012 at 13:58, Eric Smith wrote: > I found a PDF online at > > http://www.pestingers.net/PDFs/Other_computers/Radio_Shack/MODII_16_TR > M_FDC_REV.pdf > > > Was the schematic of the late model FDC ever published? > The supplement contains a schematic, which presumably is one of the > late revs. Thanks! I'll have a look. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 17 19:46:00 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:46:00 -0800 Subject: 3-pin hdd power connector In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F3E9258.29149.1BB0554@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2012 at 1:03, Sander Reiche wrote: > ?J7 ? DC Power and pin connector assignments > ?------------------------------------------- > ? ? ?+---------+ ? ? ?pin 1 ? ?+ 5 VDC > ? ? ?| 1 ?2 ?3 | ? ? ?pin 2 ? ?+12 VDC > ? ? ?+---------+ ? ? ?pin 3 ? ?Ground > > Anyone know what this connector is called and maybe even call out some > drive names/types for which I can start the hunt? You'll find this connector on older Conner IDE drives, such as the CP3024. The following OEM spec identifies it as a Molex product: http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/manuals/ata/30204.pdf --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 19:50:35 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 19:50:35 -0600 Subject: Looking for (retired) IBM CE with System/360 experience In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC169@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC169@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Hi Rich, I passed your search onto a friend who used to be in charge of all the computers at Fermilabs. He said he knew two people who worked on 360's and would try to contact them in a few days. Good luck, Paul On 2/17/12, Rich Alderson wrote: > The Living Computer Museum project of Vulcan, Inc., is looking to hire an > expert on IBM System/360 hardware maintenance to guide the restoration of > a 360/40 which we have acquired. The official job posting can be found at > > https://jobs.vulcan.com/ > > as Sr. Systems Engineer (Vintage), job ID 2258, posted 13 Feb 2012. > > (There doesn't appear to be any way to provide a link directly to the > posting > because of the programming model used.) > > I'm happy to answer questions, in the group or offline. I will ignore any > flame fest similar to the last time we posted a job. > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Feb 17 19:59:53 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:59:53 -0500 Subject: List test In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F3F0619.3080209@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>Is it down, or did I get dropped? >> >It was down here (as in 'I got no messages') for nearly a week. It seems >to be back now (and a big 'Thank you') to the chap who fixed it :-)) > I also found that it was not sending any messages. After a week, I sent a message which did not return. I then sent a few test messages along with one to Jay West. Within an hour, things were back to normal with at least two messages held over from February 13th, 2012 and one additional message held over from February 14th, 2012. So it seems very likely that something did get stuck somewhere. Likewise my THANK YOU to who fixed it again. Jerome Fine From jws at jwsss.com Fri Feb 17 20:56:10 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 18:56:10 -0800 Subject: Looking for (retired) IBM CE with System/360 experience In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC169@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F3F134A.8090700@jwsss.com> The CE for UMR's 360/50 passwd away about 10 years ago, sadly. He also maintained the 360/40 that IBM loaned to them for about a year in 69 or so. He got a call from his supervisor in St. Louis one afternoon and told him he was going to go to train for the CE spot for UMR. It wasn't clear it that it was for electronic apparatus, since all he had done was Selectrics and regular IBM typewriters. He had actually asked to train on the mechanical an small calculators, but got a bit more than he bargained for. He was a very nice guy and always impressed me as to how the IBM maintainence could be passed on to anyone, regardless of background. Not to say anything about him at all, he figured things out very quickly. It was the first I'd heard of them throwing a typewriter repair guy at a 360. Also the 1050 console always worked really well. I'll pass this to a mainframe guy who works at IBM here in Orange County and see if he knows anyone. Only problem he's a bit too young too to know anyone that did 360's for the most part. Jim On 2/17/2012 5:50 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > i Rich, > > I passed your search onto a friend who used to be in charge of all the > computers at Fermilabs. He said he knew two people who worked on 360's > and would try to contact them in a few days. > > Good luck, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 17 23:01:23 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:01:23 -0600 Subject: Looking for (retired) IBM CE with System/360 experience In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC169@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: Sorry, I meant for this to be sent off list. Paul On 2/17/12, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Rich, > > I passed your search onto a friend who used to be in charge of all the > computers at Fermilabs. He said he knew two people who worked on 360's > and would try to contact them in a few days. > > Good luck, Paul > > On 2/17/12, Rich Alderson wrote: >> The Living Computer Museum project of Vulcan, Inc., is looking to hire an >> expert on IBM System/360 hardware maintenance to guide the restoration of >> a 360/40 which we have acquired. The official job posting can be found >> at >> >> https://jobs.vulcan.com/ >> >> as Sr. Systems Engineer (Vintage), job ID 2258, posted 13 Feb 2012. >> >> (There doesn't appear to be any way to provide a link directly to the >> posting >> because of the programming model used.) >> >> I'm happy to answer questions, in the group or offline. I will ignore >> any >> flame fest similar to the last time we posted a job. >> >> >> Rich Alderson >> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer >> Vulcan, Inc. >> 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 >> Seattle, WA 98104 >> >> mailto:RichA at vulcan.com >> mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org >> >> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ >> >> >> >> > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Feb 18 02:13:01 2012 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 09:13:01 +0100 Subject: Tek 8560 (was: Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)?) In-Reply-To: <37e37400b2e4111bf2e5c4a69ba34a53@otter.se> References: <37e37400b2e4111bf2e5c4a69ba34a53@otter.se> Message-ID: <20120218091301.d43a3441.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:23:13 +0100 jonas at otter.se wrote: > I also saw in an old thread here that Tony has an 8560 running TNIX. I have one too, with the 8540 in circuit emulator. IIRC I have M68k and M6800 probes for it. I have a big box full of documentation, but no usable media and I need the equivalent of fsck(8) for it. Preferably a complete set of instalation media... > Nice machine, but very slow. I had a look inside. It has a M8186 / KDF11 of some sort. I have a M8192 / KDJ11 that was designed as a upgrade for the M8186 / KDF11. So one day I'll do this upgrade to my Tek 8560. I hope it will work. Would be a nice speed improvement. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Sat Feb 18 02:31:10 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:31:10 -0000 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> References: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> Message-ID: <11FBFCDBB92A420FBFD4A6B2AC2F0226@Edicons.local> DEC actually made its own SCSI drives at one point in Germany. It certainly re-branded other makes. There is nothing wrong with the KZQSA and I'll take any that are unwanted. Third party DEC SCSI controllers - more than a couple - no special drivers required and I have several in use. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 09 February 2012 10:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VAX for running old version of VMS On 2012-02-09 02:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 02/08/2012 08:18 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:31 PM, allison wrote: >> > >>> >> >>> >> There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. >>> >> >> > >> > What was the KZQSA for? I got one and thought I had scored a qbus scsi >> > adapter and quickly determined it was pretty much useless. What I >> > never understood for sure was if it lacked hardware documentation and >> > drivers and was not supported for general SCSI use or if it was >> > broken/crippled in some way so that it couldn't be used for general >> > SCSI. > That's a driver issue and was some sort of "business decision". > (means "got screwed up by suits for no good reason") > > And it is an MSCP controller, is it not? As far as I can remember, no. That was the point. It is a SCSI controller, not an MSCP controller. By the way, yes, there is plenty of SCSI support in VMS. All of the more modern VAXstations and whatnot have only native SCSI, and no MSCP or similar. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 18 02:50:19 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 08:50:19 -0000 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <11FBFCDBB92A420FBFD4A6B2AC2F0226@Edicons.local> References: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> <11FBFCDBB92A420FBFD4A6B2AC2F0226@Edicons.local> Message-ID: <00be01ccee1a$5976cca0$0c6465e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: 18 February 2012 08:31 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: VAX for running old version of VMS > > DEC actually made its own SCSI drives at one point in Germany. > It certainly re-branded other makes. > There is nothing wrong with the KZQSA and I'll take any that are unwanted. > Third party DEC SCSI controllers - more than a couple - no special drivers > required and I have several in use. > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > Me too, if anyone has surplus KZQSA or KFQSA, then let me know. Regards Rob From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Feb 18 04:02:38 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:02:38 +0100 Subject: VAX QBUS Memories.. Message-ID: <20120218100238.GA12037@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Hi again, Guys I still have a problem to get my qbus VAx Memory boards working thogether. I do have an KA630CPU, Firmware 1.30, and want to get 2 8MB Memory Boards to work thogether in a H9278 Backplane which has 3 CD interconnect slots. I've tried all variants ot plug the boards and of the switch and Jumper settings. The one board is an National NS638 the other is a Chrislin CM-VI-8. For the memory sizing test I'm booting NetBSD 1.5.3 over the network from my FreeBSD Workstation. There are setting where I get a double fault while booting, think that is why there is to small amaount ov memory enabled. Mostly I get 9MB of Memory (1MB from the KA630 + one 8MB Board) but I had 10Mbytes too so that at least one of the boards must have worked as 1MB Mem. There is also a setting where the machine doesnt boot at all. The NS638 has a Jumper that can be set into the W1 and W2 positions, have tried both of them. I have additionally an MS630 Board with 4MB of memory, this board works thogether with the crislin and the national board, I get 13MB of memory total (8+4 +1MB KA630). An other MS630 with only 2 Mbytes is still untested. So please, please, does anyone here know whats happening here and what for the jumpers and the switches on the handles of the 8MB boards are for? Has anyone those boards too and can confirm this? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 18 08:34:37 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 14:34:37 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Model 30 Owner's Manual Message-ID: <00e901ccee4a$72c07d70$58417850$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone have the PDF for this manual? On manx the link to it is dead and it does not seem to be in the mirrored copy I have. The part number is EK-265AA-OM-001. Thanks Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Feb 18 09:22:48 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 15:22:48 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Model 30 Owner's Manual In-Reply-To: <00e901ccee4a$72c07d70$58417850$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > Does anyone have the PDF for this manual? On manx the link to > it is dead and it does not seem to be in the mirrored copy I > have. The part number is EK-265AA-OM-001. Must've been one of the ones Richard didn't manage to retrieve from elsewhere on the web. It's 38MiB, so a tad large for email. I'll bung it on Rapidshare and send you a link (unless you have a handy FTP site you'd rather I use?). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sat Feb 18 09:22:11 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 10:22:11 -0500 Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S100:702] Re: S-100 Z80 CPU board PCBs In-Reply-To: <531dd11d-1689-458d-bdef-75c0fe3b0b83@m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> References: <001501ccd30c$f58cb790$e0a626b0$@YAHOO.COM> <531dd11d-1689-458d-bdef-75c0fe3b0b83@m5g2000yqk.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <002801ccee51$2fb981f0$8f2c85d0$@YAHOO.COM> Hi, to let you know that there are more of the S-100 Z80 CPU board PCBs available. There is information here: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/Z80%20Board/Z80%20CPU%20Board.h tm http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S-100%20Z80%20C PU Many builders have gotten these boards to work and the board is "clean" with no cuts and jumpers needed. Thanks! Andrew Lynch -----Original Message----- From: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of lynchaj Sent: Sunday, February 12, 2012 10:58 AM To: N8VEM-S100 Subject: [N8VEM-S100:702] Re: S-100 Z80 CPU board PCBs Hi! Good news! The S-100 Z80 CPU board PCBs arrived! Please let me know if you would like one. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 18 09:56:43 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 15:56:43 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Model 30 Owner's Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00e901ccee4a$72c07d70$58417850$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00f401ccee55$eae74e40$c0b5eac0$@ntlworld.com> Rapidshare would be fine. Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 18 February 2012 15:23 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100 Model 30 Owner's Manual > > Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > > Does anyone have the PDF for this manual? On manx the link to it is > > dead and it does not seem to be in the mirrored copy I have. The part > > number is EK-265AA-OM-001. > > Must've been one of the ones Richard didn't manage to retrieve from > elsewhere on the web. It's 38MiB, so a tad large for email. > I'll bung it on Rapidshare and send you a link (unless you have a handy FTP > site you'd rather I use?). > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Feb 18 10:25:50 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 11:25:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <00be01ccee1a$5976cca0$0c6465e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> <11FBFCDBB92A420FBFD4A6B2AC2F0226@Edicons.local> <00be01ccee1a$5976cca0$0c6465e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201202181625.LAA15869@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> There is nothing wrong with the KZQSA and I'll take any that are >> unwanted. > Me too, if anyone has surplus KZQSA or KFQSA, then let me know. Me too. If there are Qbus SCSI boards of any sort looking for homes I doubt they'll have trouble finding takers. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wlewisiii at gmail.com Sat Feb 18 13:05:53 2012 From: wlewisiii at gmail.com (William Barnett-Lewis) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 13:05:53 -0600 Subject: Looking for a Vaxstation 4000 VLC Message-ID: Digging for something else in the basement, I came across my owners manual for the VLC I used to have. I should not have gotten rid of that sweet little box. Anyone out there got one to spare, preferably cheaply, to a good home? I'm in Madison, WI. Thanks, William -- Live like you will never die, love like you've never been hurt, dance like no-one is watching. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Alex White From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 14:17:35 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:17:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: xml manifest for ROM/PROM dumps? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 17, 12 02:39:16 pm Message-ID: > > I was just thinking that when we dump a ROM/PROM contents we get a > binary file out. In order to understand that binary file we need to > know some metadata about the data, such as: I am not sure what the point of this would be, To understand a PROM dump you often need to know a lot more than that, in fact you often need schematics, (and maybe PAL equations, etc) for the device it goes in. And if you have that, most of these questions are answered. > > - what is the organization of the chip/data? > Is it 2048x1 bit or is it 256x8 bits? For PROms with word lengths <=8 biMs (which covers just about all 'classic' ones, it's normal to put one word pe byte, in the low bits of the bute and pack with 0s's. So a 256*4 dump would be 256 bytes long, the high nybble of each byte of the dump woul;d be zero. > > - is it a character generator table for a terminal? If it is, that doesn't tell you everything about it Not all character generators are simple bit-maps. In particular, many character cells on older terminals.dispalys were 7 bits wide, but normal 8-bit EPROMs were used for the chaacter generator. Thie extra bit of the EPROM (often the MSB) was used i na variety of ways, 2 common ones being to extend the last bit sent to the screen into the inter-character gap (so that line drawing chartacters join up), or to signal that this row of the pattern should be shifter by half a dot width to get smoother diagonals (som HPs did that certainly. > > - is it microcode for a CPU? Again, you'd need to know a lot about the CPU architecture to make sense of it if it was. Porbably a schematic would be a good start... And the schematic will show the size/organisation of the PROM. > > - is it code for a commercial microcontroller/microprocessor? > if so, which chip is it for? (8086, 8051, 6809, etc.) That would eb a good start, but again you need to know things like the I.O structure to fully understnad the code in tha lot of cases. > > - what part number information is on the chip package? Does that matter? Many manfacturers used a variet of makes of PROMs at differnt times, based on cost/availability/... I don;'t think it matters that the PROM dump came from an MMI PROM and that the machine you're fixing has an equicalent (for reading at least) National Semiconducator PROM in it. > > - if there is a printed label on the packge, what does it say? > (i.e. version number label on an EPROM) > > - who performed the dump of the data? > what is their contact information? Why on earth odes that matter? > > It seems to me that this small amount of metadata could easily be Actually, in a lot of cases for older machine, the metadata would be several times the size of the PROM dump. 32*8 (thats' 32 bytes, not Kbytes) PROMs were common, used for address decoders, microcode funciton decordes, state machine tables, etc. I susepct specifying the machine it came out of, the lcoation in the circuit, the basic fuction, and the organisation, would take a lot more than 32 bytes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 14:21:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 20:21:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: <4F3ECDB7.1060504@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 17, 12 04:59:19 pm Message-ID: > > > Hey, does anyone have an electronic copy of the schematics for the > DEC 874-D power controller? I looked on bitsavers and didn't see > anything there, my paper originals are 1200 miles away, and I have an > 874-D "buzzing" and dropping power periodically. Yuck! My experience wih DEC power controllers (in general) is that thy;'re very simple, and you can trace out the scheamtic of the control electronics in half an hour maximum,. For the rest of it, it takes longer to draw the components than to figure out what they do. Much of the time a controlelr that buzzes/chatters has a dried-up smoothing capacitr for the supply to the control electronics. I'd check any sizeable electrolytics first. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 18 15:03:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 21:03:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tek 8560 (was: Re: Who wants a nice monitor (UK)?) In-Reply-To: <20120218091301.d43a3441.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at Feb 18, 12 09:13:01 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 08 Feb 2012 10:23:13 +0100 > jonas at otter.se wrote: > > > I also saw in an old thread here that Tony has an 8560 running TNIX. > I have one too, with the 8540 in circuit emulator. IIRC I have M68k and I have 2 of these delevopment sustems. One has the 11/03 CPU board and 2 floppy drives, the toehr had an 11.23, a floppy drie and a hard drive (Micropolis 1200 series). One of them, I forget which, has a TI 9905 (I think) in-circuit emulator. Not terribly ueful to me, but anyway. > M6800 probes for it. I have a big box full of documentation, but no > usable media and I need the equivalent of fsck(8) for it. Preferably a > complete set of instalation media... I've not fogortten... I will see what I can find. -tony From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Feb 18 15:28:18 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 16:28:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 assemblers - Re: PDP-8 Unix In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4F4017F2.9030601@telegraphics.com.au> On 08/02/12 2:24 AM, Roger Ivie wrote: > ... > For what it's worth (which is not much), it can be found here: > > http://anachronda.homeunix.com:8000/~rivie/third/ > Lovely. I collected some 'small C' compiler sources here, and tweaked so they would build more easily: http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/smallcnova/trunk/ > I've only put up the PDP-8 and Z80 versions, but I've also done > a handful of other processors; enough to wring out byte-order > and word-size dependencies. The PDP-8 version was done as a > degenerate case involving one-byte cells. > > I used long symbol names in the PDP-8 source, so you'll need > a variant of Doug Jone's PAL assembler that I've tweaked to > take them. FWIW, my PDP-8 (PAL-III compatible) cross-assembler is here: http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/dpa/trunk What do your mods entail? --Toby From rivie at ridgenet.net Sat Feb 18 16:54:29 2012 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 14:54:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-8 assemblers - Re: PDP-8 Unix In-Reply-To: <4F4017F2.9030601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> <4F4017F2.9030601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, 18 Feb 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 08/02/12 2:24 AM, Roger Ivie wrote: >> I used long symbol names in the PDP-8 source, so you'll need >> a variant of Doug Jone's PAL assembler that I've tweaked to >> take them. > > What do your mods entail? I made two changes: - Upped #define SYMLEN from 7 to 63 - Made certain that the object file is opened "wb" so it works under Windows. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From RichA at vulcan.com Sat Feb 18 20:47:14 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 02:47:14 +0000 Subject: Looking for (retired) IBM CE with System/360 experience In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC169@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC62C@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: jim s Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 6:56 PM > I'll pass this to a mainframe guy who works at IBM here in Orange County > and see if he knows anyone. Only problem he's a bit too young too to > know anyone that did 360's for the most part. > Jim From: Paul Anderson Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 5:51 PM > I passed your search onto a friend who used to be in charge of all the > computers at Fermilabs. He said he knew two people who worked on 360's > and would try to contact them in a few days. > Good luck, Paul Thank you both, gentlemen! We know that we're looking for someone who is likely well beyond nominal retirement age, but the experience involved is the trump card. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 00:23:32 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:23:32 -0500 Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> On 02/18/2012 03:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hey, does anyone have an electronic copy of the schematics for the >> DEC 874-D power controller? I looked on bitsavers and didn't see >> anything there, my paper originals are 1200 miles away, and I have an >> 874-D "buzzing" and dropping power periodically. Yuck! > > My experience wih DEC power controllers (in general) is that thy;'re very > simple, and you can trace out the scheamtic of the control electronics in > half an hour maximum,. For the rest of it, it takes longer to draw the > components than to figure out what they do. > > Much of the time a controlelr that buzzes/chatters has a dried-up > smoothing capacitr for the supply to the control electronics. I'd check > any sizeable electrolytics first. That makes sense; they're pretty simple. I'll yank it and check those capacitors, that's what I was figuring it was anyway, but I generally like to have schematics (if possible) before tearing into something. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 19 00:38:40 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:38:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> References: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201202190638.BAA27815@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...], but I generally like to have schematics (if possible) before > tearing into something. Sure...but don't forget that any schematics you'd get would describe what an 874-D was originally supposed to be. There are any number of reasons why that might differ from what the particular unit you have currently is. Not that a supposed-to-be schematic is worthless, of course; just pointing out that you likely would want to do at least some verificatory tracing anyway, so creating your own schematic may not be all that much extra pain.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 01:09:49 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 02:09:49 -0500 Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: <201202190638.BAA27815@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> <201202190638.BAA27815@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2012, at 1:38 AM, Mouse wrote: >> [...], but I generally like to have schematics (if possible) before >> tearing into something. > > Sure...but don't forget that any schematics you'd get would describe > what an 874-D was originally supposed to be. There are any number of > reasons why that might differ from what the particular unit you have > currently is. Urr? I have about ten 874-Ds now, and in my life probably fifty more have passed through my hands, and I've repaired maybe four of them. I have NEVER seen or heard of a modified one. It's just that my schematics are still at my old house in Florida. > Not that a supposed-to-be schematic is worthless, of course; just > pointing out that you likely would want to do at least some > verificatory tracing anyway, so creating your own schematic may not be > all that much extra pain.... Well sure...but for anything more complex than a simple 874-D, if the goal is to get it working, that can be far more work than is necessary. We've all run across erroneous schematics, but those situations usually stick out like sore thumbs. Just sayin'.. I'd be willing to just put another one in this rack, but my general philosophy is to repair rather than to replace whenever possible. Plus, my place is a right mess at the moment, so actually FINDING a loose one would probably be pretty tough! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 19 03:13:18 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 01:13:18 -0800 Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: References: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> <201202190638.BAA27815@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F40BD2E.2060900@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I have about ten 874-Ds now, and in my life probably fifty more have > passed through my hands, and I've repaired maybe four of them. I have > NEVER seen or heard of a modified one. Nor have I. However, I *have* seen a different DEC power control that was modified. Specifically, it was a DEC Type 811 power control, and it was part of the Type 30G Precision CRT Display attached to the PDP-1 at the Computer History Museum. After we had the PDP-1 restored to operation, we started working on restoring the Type 30. We identified a number of things that were wrong with it, including the deflection power supply (an EQR power supply made by NJE Corporation) being entirely missing. After we repaired and tested all of the Type 30's power supplies, with fire extinguisher at hand, we powered it up. We hit the power switch, the fans spun up, then there was a very loud clack and the circuit breaker tripped. What we found was that the internally wiring of the 811 was completely inexplicable. Documentation on the 811 was found in the museum's archives, and the wiring was significantly different than indicated. As wired, 120VAC was applied directly across the vane switch that closes when it sense airflow across the deflection transistor assemblies. As soon as it closed, it welded shut, and tripped the breaker. We never found out why the 811 was wired that way. We're pretty sure that it wasn't supplied by the factory that way, and that someone did a field modification, but we couldn't make any sense of how the modified version could have been useful for anything. We rewired it to factory spec, replaced the vane switch, and it has worked properly ever since. Eric From sander.reiche at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 04:26:14 2012 From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:26:14 +0100 Subject: Looking for a Vaxstation 4000 VLC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 8:05 PM, William Barnett-Lewis wrote: > Digging for something else in the basement, I came across my owners > manual for the VLC I used to have. I should not have gotten rid of > that sweet little box. Anyone out there got one to spare, preferably > cheaply, to a good home? Same for one in Europe. If there is one lying dormant, with no specific goal in life yet, I am very interested. Looks like a lovely, lovely little machine! Kind regards, Sander Reiche From ama at ugr.es Sun Feb 19 04:53:38 2012 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:53:38 +0100 Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors Message-ID: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> Hello everybody: A while ago I got two Sun GDM-20D10 monitors in very good condition. Both were working find, very clean, and they had been very well kept. I was using one of them with my Ultra 1 workstation and I was very happy with it. The other one I kept in storage (well preserved) to be put in use when I moved to a larger office and had enough space for it. Unfortunately, before that happened, I had to move temporarily to a smaller place, where I was using a TFT screen on a PC instead of my beloved Ultra 1 with it great monitor. When I had the chance to start using the Ultra 1 again the GDM-20D10 screen I had been using didn't work. It won't even start when I switch it on. I then took the second one from storage and try it out and the same happened, it won't start and it won't show any video activity or anything. I really like those monitors and would love to get them working again. That's why I asking here, where I think I have the highest chances to get help with them. Are there maybe any known problems with those monitors when they are off for sometime? I'm wondering because both of them were working fine and then none work anymore. I'm hopping there is something stupid I can easily fixed when I know about it and I can use them again soon. Any ideas, please? Thank you and regards. ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de Granada Full contact data at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ PGP Public key at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From kris at catonic.us Sun Feb 19 04:21:32 2012 From: kris at catonic.us (Kris Kirby) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 04:21:32 -0600 (CST) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> References: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Much of the time a controlelr that buzzes/chatters has a dried-up > > smoothing capacitr for the supply to the control electronics. I'd > > check any sizeable electrolytics first. > > That makes sense; they're pretty simple. I'll yank it and check > those capacitors, that's what I was figuring it was anyway, but I > generally like to have schematics (if possible) before tearing into > something. I should probably find a service manual for my Sony VPC-1272 projector; it's power supply intermittently sings in the most annoying way. Like, louder than the projector's fans. Dave, I see you have your license again; interesting choice of a vanity call. -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst From kris at catonic.us Sun Feb 19 04:24:17 2012 From: kris at catonic.us (Kris Kirby) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 04:24:17 -0600 (CST) Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 13 Feb 2012, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > NASA unplugs last mainframe > IBM mainframes no longer a NASA workhorse > > IBM mainframe available for a collector ? > > http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/nasa-unplugs-last-mainframe They probably have another one somewhere that no one knows about, used for decoding spacecraft data from the 1970s.... ;) -- Kris Kirby, KE4AHR Disinformation Analyst From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 09:53:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 10:53:11 -0500 Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: References: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <64EDA474-537D-436F-8506-4095A3C5CA16@neurotica.com> On Feb 19, 2012, at 5:21 AM, Kris Kirby wrote: > On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> Much of the time a controlelr that buzzes/chatters has a dried-up >>> smoothing capacitr for the supply to the control electronics. I'd >>> check any sizeable electrolytics first. >> >> That makes sense; they're pretty simple. I'll yank it and check >> those capacitors, that's what I was figuring it was anyway, but I >> generally like to have schematics (if possible) before tearing into >> something. > > I should probably find a service manual for my Sony VPC-1272 projector; > it's power supply intermittently sings in the most annoying way. Like, > louder than the projector's fans. Eeeeewww. That's probably a consumer-grade switcher, too. Sucky. > Dave, I see you have your license again; interesting choice of a vanity > call. Oddly enough, that's my FCC-assigned call. I had a few possible vanity calls in mind, but when this one came in, I thought it was pretty neat so I decided to keep it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 12:37:09 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:37:09 +0000 Subject: Would anyone like to buy my Compukit UK101? Message-ID: Please excuse the spam, but a couple of list members asked me to let them know when I was going to sell this. Well, the time has finally come, I'm afraid. I need the space and the money. :?( Complete Compukit UK101 with case, original manual, demo cassette and a bare, uncased, mono composite CRT monitor. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270918417815 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 12:48:06 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:48:06 -0500 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4143E6.1030704@neurotica.com> On 02/13/2012 09:17 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > NASA unplugs last mainframe > IBM mainframes no longer a NASA workhorse > > IBM mainframe available for a collector ? > > http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/nasa-unplugs-last-mainframe The machine in question is a z9, only a few years old. Hardly "collectible", and the whole world is running them. (and the current model, the z10) I'm sure it went for bucks to (or via) a reseller, if it was purchased rather than leased. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 12:48:04 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:48:04 -0500 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4143E4.1080102@neurotica.com> On 02/19/2012 05:24 AM, Kris Kirby wrote: > On Mon, 13 Feb 2012, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> NASA unplugs last mainframe >> IBM mainframes no longer a NASA workhorse >> >> IBM mainframe available for a collector ? >> >> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/nasa-unplugs-last-mainframe > > They probably have another one somewhere that no one knows about, used > for decoding spacecraft data from the 1970s.... > > ;) Quite possibly. But NASA is a BIG organization; I have a very hard time believing that there are NO "mainframes" running there now. First of all, define "mainframe"...If you just mean "IBM mainframes", NASA had a whole lot of P390 systems running for development, and later lots of installations of FLEX-ES. I don't know that anyone can make a definitive statement that "there are no longer any mainframes running at NASA". It sure did make for a nice article, though. (which was probably the point) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 12:53:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 13:53:57 -0500 Subject: Would anyone like to buy my Compukit UK101? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F414545.40805@neurotica.com> On 02/19/2012 01:37 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Please excuse the spam, but a couple of list members asked me to let > them know when I was going to sell this. Well, the time has finally > come, I'm afraid. I need the space and the money. :?( > > Complete Compukit UK101 with case, original manual, demo cassette and > a bare, uncased, mono composite CRT monitor. > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270918417815 Neat machine! I've placed a bid. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From md.benson at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 13:34:59 2012 From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:34:59 +0000 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: <4F4143E6.1030704@neurotica.com> References: <4F4143E6.1030704@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <092401EC-29C9-48A9-9867-D96893C8492D@gmail.com> On 19 Feb 2012, at 18:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/13/2012 09:17 AM, St?phane Tsacas wrote: >> NASA unplugs last mainframe >> IBM mainframes no longer a NASA workhorse >> >> IBM mainframe available for a collector ? >> >> http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/nasa-unplugs-last-mainframe > > The machine in question is a z9, only a few years old. Hardly "collectible", and the whole world is running them. (and the current model, the z10) I'm sure it went for bucks to (or via) a reseller, if it was purchased rather than leased. While your point is valid, if you had the facilities to keep and run 'NASA's last mainframe' it'd be a pretty cool collector's piece down the line, especially if you could get some kind of paperwork to prove it's heritage. I am such a sentimental old romantic (at 31) sometimes ;) -- Mark Benson http://markbenson.org/blog http://twitter.com/MDBenson From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 13:42:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 14:42:44 -0500 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: <092401EC-29C9-48A9-9867-D96893C8492D@gmail.com> References: <4F4143E6.1030704@neurotica.com> <092401EC-29C9-48A9-9867-D96893C8492D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F4150B4.4030902@neurotica.com> On 02/19/2012 02:34 PM, Mark Benson wrote: >> The machine in question is a z9, only a few years old. Hardly >>"collectible", and the whole world is running them. (and the current >>model, the z10) I'm sure it went for bucks to (or via) a reseller, if >>it was purchased rather than leased. > > While your point is valid, if you had the facilities to keep and run > 'NASA's last mainframe' it'd be a pretty cool collector's piece down > the line, especially if you could get some kind of paperwork to > prove it's heritage. Hmm, yes, I agree. (and I do have such facilities, equipped with a similar machine, but not of such interesting heritage) I still have very strong doubts about the whole "last mainframe" thing, though. > I am such a sentimental old romantic (at 31) sometimes ;) A "young fart", perhaps? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From lproven at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 13:45:50 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:45:50 +0000 Subject: Would anyone like to buy my Compukit UK101? In-Reply-To: <4F414545.40805@neurotica.com> References: <4F414545.40805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 19 February 2012 18:53, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/19/2012 01:37 PM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Please excuse the spam, but a couple of list members asked me to let >> them know when I was going to sell this. Well, the time has finally >> come, I'm afraid. I need the space and the money. :?( >> >> Complete Compukit UK101 with case, original manual, demo cassette and >> a bare, uncased, mono composite CRT monitor. >> >> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/270918417815 > > ?Neat machine! ?I've placed a bid. Hey, thanks! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 19 13:49:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 11:49:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: I unplugged my ANS was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: <4F4150B4.4030902@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 19, 12 02:42:44 pm" Message-ID: <201202191949.q1JJnonQ11206854@floodgap.com> Well, on a related note, I unplugged my Apple Network Server 500 from the switch today and transferred its services to the POWER6. It was getting flaky and was definitely slow, but it's a little sad. :'( (I'm not getting rid of it though. It'll be the backup if the POWER6 has a hiccup, and after I get a body double for it I will make stockholm into a toybox and showpiece as Apple's last "real" server.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And then we wonder why the UFO's won't stop by and say hello. -George Carlin From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 14:21:53 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:21:53 -0500 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: <092401EC-29C9-48A9-9867-D96893C8492D@gmail.com> References: <4F4143E6.1030704@neurotica.com> <092401EC-29C9-48A9-9867-D96893C8492D@gmail.com> Message-ID: > While your point is valid, if you had the facilities to keep and run 'NASA's last mainframe' it'd be a pretty cool collector's piece down the line, especially if you could get some kind of paperwork to prove it's heritage. I am such a sentimental old romantic (at 31) sometimes ;) I do not think this machine really is all that historic - if any. NASA's computation is far better suited to run on other architectures, and has been for a very long time. I think this z9 probably was hanging on simply because someone could not let go. Still, neat to have. Watch the surplus lists (and be prepared to be outbid!). -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 19 14:03:33 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:03:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: <4F409564.1090007@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 19, 12 01:23:32 am Message-ID: > That makes sense; they're pretty simple. I'll yank it and check > those capacitors, that's what I was figuring it was anyway, but I > generally like to have schematics (if possible) before tearing into > something. Sure, I do know the value of schematics, that's probably why I have several _thousahns_ of them for assorted devices, computer and otherwise... It's also why I have been lnown to produce them for things where the official diagrams are unobtainable. However, it can be worth comparing the time/effort taken to get the official sechmatic whith that needed to solve the problem without it. Now, if you had a nasty logic fault in a PDP11 CPU, or in a multi-board disk cotnroller, or something like that then I could agree it would be worth spending condsderable time to get the printset. But when it's somehing with a couple of dozen parts, many of them obvious, and no clever tircks, then it may be quicker to just open it up and figure it out. After all, a schematic won't tell you the fault. It should tell you how the devie works, and it might indicate likely candidates that would cause the observed vfault. But you might be able to spot those in the device anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 19 14:12:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:12:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: <4F40BD2E.2060900@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 19, 12 01:13:18 am Message-ID: > We never found out why the 811 was wired that way. We're pretty sure Err, no. Devices that short out the mains in normal operation are not normally very useful. > that it wasn't supplied by the factory that way, and that someone did a > field modification, but we couldn't make any sense of how the modified > version could have been useful for anything. We rewired it to factory > spec, replaced the vane switch, and it has worked properly ever since. How'complex' was the modification, If it was 'just' connectiong some wires to the wrong tags, particularly if they were screw terminals or fastons, then it could have happened by accident. Particularly if some of the wires are the same colour, or if the wires has been mirror-relfected in some wat. If it was a more major modification, how neat was it? Random bits of wire hangl;ig loose, or neatly tied into the cableform? I haev a Creed 444 teleprinte with the associated control unit. They are linked by a piece of telephone cable (which I beleive to be original) of the type that conssits of a number of twised pair. One wire of each pair is whit,e the other is a differnet colour. Anyway, some 'genius' at some point cut this cable midway along and rejoind it, simply matching the colours. Which meant the white wires -- half of the total wires i nthe cable -- were scrambled. It did no permanent damage (Creeds are stronger than that!), but it did casue some inte3resting problems, like having one of the currnet-control lamps glow all the time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 19 14:16:16 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:16:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller In-Reply-To: from "Kris Kirby" at Feb 19, 12 04:21:32 am Message-ID: > I should probably find a service manual for my Sony VPC-1272 projector; > it's power supply intermittently sings in the most annoying way. Like, > louder than the projector's fans. The serive manual for our Sony digital TV set doesn't incldue the SPU board scheamtic :-(. On one page it claims this is because it was an OEM'ed module, on another it's becuase field repairs to the PSU are prohibited for safety reasons. Whatever... You do get scheamtics of the receiver PCB, complete with BGA ICs and the like.... But not of the bit you actually have a chance of fixing with nornal tools... -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 15:42:59 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:42:59 -0000 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <179CB1BDE04A4B398BB8166E588DC70E@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli > Sent: 19 February 2012 20:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe > > > > While your point is valid, if you had the facilities to > keep and run 'NASA's last mainframe' it'd be a pretty cool > collector's piece down the line, especially if you could get > some kind of paperwork to prove it's heritage. I am such a > sentimental old romantic (at 31) sometimes ;) > > I do not think this machine really is all that historic - if any. > NASA's computation is far better suited to run on other architectures, > and has been for a very long time. I think this z9 probably was > hanging on simply because someone could not let go. > I would says its not even a "Mainframe" in the classical sense of the word, in the same way that a 16-way Intel or Sparc box running Herculesm, or even a P370 or P390 isn't a "Mainframe" either. What it realy is I don'y know. > Still, neat to have. Watch the surplus lists (and be prepared > to be outbid!). > > -- > Will > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 19 16:20:05 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 11:20:05 +1300 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) Message-ID: I don't know much about mainframes. However, last night I watched an IBM presentation about mainframes on Youtube. Part 1 (of 5) is here: http://youtu.be/mPCvlr9QRII After watching all five parts, it seems that (contrary to what I thought) the mainframe is very much alive and in fact growing in market-share and use due to cloud computing etc. Of course there could be a bit of IBM spin in this. But, it then begs the question. What is a mainframe anyway, and can a clear distinction be made between the 'mainframe" and other server technologies nowadays? Terry (Tezza) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 17:02:07 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:02:07 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What is a mainframe anyway, and can a > clear distinction be made between the 'mainframe" and other server > technologies nowadays? Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. -- Will From tpresence at hotmail.com Thu Feb 9 07:52:13 2012 From: tpresence at hotmail.com (Kevin Reynolds) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 06:52:13 -0700 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F335588.3040905@neurotica.com> References: , , , , , , <4F335588.3040905@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Are you certain that it can run NetBSD *at all*? To my knowledge, > the somewhat unusual memory addressing scheme of the KD32 (memory > directly on the Qbus, unique for a VAX) would require quite a bit of > specific kernel support in NetBSD, and I don't think anyone ever did > that. It's possible that it happened and I missed it, but I doubt it; > port-vax is a pretty low-traffic list and I've been on it since like > 1993. (when the ONLY VAX it ran on was the 11/750) > > -Dave I can't say it ran any version of netbsd at all. ?I know that after 1.6.1?I had tried it and only got kernel panics. ?After a time with no solution?I gave up. Kevin From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Feb 9 02:53:11 2012 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 2012 09:53:11 +0100 Subject: Nokia terminals (Was: Apple ][ disk/game server) In-Reply-To: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> References: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: 2012/2/8 G?ran Axelsson : > Finally, after digging out a terminal, reconfigured my new web server and > installed samba on it I have some pictures to show of the terminals. > > http://www.neab.net/temp/ > http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-front.jpg Front view > http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-back.jpg Model number on the > back > http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd.jpg Keyboard without > overlay > http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd-overlay.jpg Overlay for the > Notis programs [..] Terminal looks great! Notis keyboard and all. You have several you say? Wonder how much it would be for shipping one to Norway! :-) (I'm still without a real ND to connect one to though) (To Torfinn: neab.net resolves now - I could see those links just fine.) -Tor From jonas at otter.se Thu Feb 9 04:09:15 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:09:15 +0100 Subject: Who wants a nice monitor =?UTF-8?Q?=28UK=29=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e00e4e4ffc6d5fc30500d831be0b43c@otter.se> >> > I guess I'm a total anorak, but there was a TNIX.. >> > >> > [Tektronix Unix, running on a PDP11/23-based development sustem] >> I own one of those and BTW I am looking for software for it. The >> hard >> disk needs a fsck(8) and this is a stand alone tool. Unfortunately I >> didn't get those floppies with the machine. > > I _may_ have the distribution kit for my machine I will see what I > can find. > > -tony > ISTR fsck needed to be run quite often on the 8560. Not the world's most stable system :-( But IIRC Tnix is simply AT&T Unix version 7 with bits taken out and other bits added on, so fsck should be the standard Unix v7 fsck for the PDP-11. I suppose that could be found elsewhere? Or would it have been modified to suit Tek's hardware? /Jonas From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 9 04:50:07 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:50:07 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F33A4DF.4020907@softjar.se> On 2012-02-09 02:26, allison wrote: > > Using a SCSI controller is the way out but watch for dives over 1GB for > the boot drive. > I forget if that affected only the older 3100s or also the uVAX-II boot > as well. The 1MB limit is a restriction in the SCSI commands of the boot monitor of the 3100. As such, this issue never have any bearing on any MSCP controller, since you don't speak SCSI commands to those. And since the uVAX-II talks MSCP, and not SCSI, it therefore is not a problem. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 9 04:52:29 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:52:29 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> On 2012-02-09 02:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On 02/08/2012 08:18 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> > On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:31 PM, allison wrote: >> > >>> >> >>> >> There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. >>> >> >> > >> > What was the KZQSA for? I got one and thought I had scored a qbus scsi >> > adapter and quickly determined it was pretty much useless. What I >> > never understood for sure was if it lacked hardware documentation and >> > drivers and was not supported for general SCSI use or if it was >> > broken/crippled in some way so that it couldn't be used for general >> > SCSI. > That's a driver issue and was some sort of "business decision". > (means "got screwed up by suits for no good reason") > > And it is an MSCP controller, is it not? As far as I can remember, no. That was the point. It is a SCSI controller, not an MSCP controller. By the way, yes, there is plenty of SCSI support in VMS. All of the more modern VAXstations and whatnot have only native SCSI, and no MSCP or similar. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From axelsson at acc.umu.se Thu Feb 9 07:28:35 2012 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Thu, 09 Feb 2012 14:28:35 +0100 Subject: Nokia terminals (Was: Apple ][ disk/game server) In-Reply-To: References: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <4F33CA03.3020806@acc.umu.se> Tor Arntsen skrev 2012-02-09 09:53: > 2012/2/8 G?ran Axelsson: >> Finally, after digging out a terminal, reconfigured my new web server and >> installed samba on it I have some pictures to show of the terminals. >> >> http://www.neab.net/temp/ >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-front.jpg Front view >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-back.jpg Model number on the >> back >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd.jpg Keyboard without >> overlay >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd-overlay.jpg Overlay for the >> Notis programs > [..] > > Terminal looks great! Notis keyboard and all. You have several you > say? Wonder how much it would be for shipping one to Norway! :-) > (I'm still without a real ND to connect one to though) > > (To Torfinn: neab.net resolves now - I could see those links just fine.) > > -Tor > If there is a problem to resolve www.neab.net you could try 62.220.162.71 instead. But as the DNS is located on the same machine it could just be that we have had some problem with the net. Two years ago we had a room half filled with these monitors. My friend said it was 60-80 stored there, but after giving away a number of terminals and scrapping 60 we hadn't even passed the half way point. We tried to throw them at the local recycling center, but after three full cars (20 per trip) I was banned as "I was not a private person, only companies have that many computers". The rest of the terminals were taken to another storage we could use for a couple of months. Finally 95 terminals ended up in one of my storage units but then I could barely close the door. Tor, if you are interested I'm certain something can be arranged. If you can wait a while maybe a transport could be arranged. Where in Norway do you live? And you know that I also have some extra satellites and compacts in my storage. ;-) I think I'll keep the ND-5000 and the butterfly for now... :-D /G?ran From dan at decodesystems.com Fri Feb 17 19:34:19 2012 From: dan at decodesystems.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:34:19 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable Message-ID: <4F3F001B.2000902@decodesystems.com> Hello, First, thanks to Jay West et al for bringing the list back to life. I'm looking for a source for the data cable that connects a Commodore PET, CBM 8032 to a Commodore 4040 dual disk drive. The cable has an IEEE-488 connector on one end and a female PCB connector on the other. Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks! Cheers, Dan dan at decodesystems.com From jonas at otter.se Sat Feb 18 15:05:09 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 18 Feb 2012 22:05:09 +0100 Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s Hackers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F401285.2050002@otter.se> On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 22:17:17 +0000 (GMT), ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > A few comments... > > 1) I can find nothing to suggest that this has anythign to do with the > UK. The televisoin company is not a UK one (AFAIK), and while is at least > one small village in England called Melbourne, I cna't beleive it had > much of a hacker./cracker community. They are based in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia. They must mean Melbourne, Australia. /Jonas From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 08:11:39 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 09:11:39 -0500 Subject: Fwd: NCR System3300 BIOS Questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The RICM has an NCR3300 PC that was missing the disk drive when it was donated. We installed the right part number 200MB SCSI drive but don't know what the SCSI ID should be set to. We tried all IDs and never saw it try to boot from the disk. We tried to boot from a floppy, but it asked for a password. It has a Phoenix BIOS 1.05.00, Setup 3.05.00. Does anyone know how to get around the boot password on this system? Do we need a setup diskette? Any idea where to get one? -- Michael Thompson From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Sun Feb 19 10:26:08 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:26:08 +0000 (WET) Subject: DEC 874-D power controller Message-ID: <01OC6I8UPZMQ0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > >What we found was that the internally wiring of the 811 was completely >inexplicable. Documentation on the 811 was found in the museum's >archives, and the wiring was significantly different than indicated. As >wired, 120VAC was applied directly across the vane switch that closes >when it sense airflow across the deflection transistor assemblies. As >soon as it closed, it welded shut, and tripped the breaker. > >We never found out why the 811 was wired that way. We're pretty sure >that it wasn't supplied by the factory that way, and that someone did a >field modification, but we couldn't make any sense of how the modified >version could have been useful for anything. We rewired it to factory >spec, replaced the vane switch, and it has worked properly ever since. > Is it possible that it could have been deliberately sabbotaged? It seems likely that if someone attempted a modification like that for some useful purpose, they would have tested it. Even if the machine was abandoned after the modification was seen to have failed, the evidence of their having tested it would have remained in the form of a damaged vane switch. It's hard to see why someone would make the modification and never power the machine again unless they knew there would be trouble when it was powered. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From tingox at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 16:49:41 2012 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:49:41 +0100 Subject: Nokia terminals (Was: Apple ][ disk/game server) In-Reply-To: References: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 9, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Tor Arntsen wrote: > 2012/2/8 G?ran Axelsson : >> Finally, after digging out a terminal, reconfigured my new web server and >> installed samba on it I have some pictures to show of the terminals. >> >> http://www.neab.net/temp/ >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-front.jpg Front view >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-back.jpg Model number on the >> back >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd.jpg Keyboard without >> overlay >> http://www.neab.net/temp/Nokia-VDU%20301%20S-kbd-overlay.jpg Overlay for the >> Notis programs > [..] > > Terminal looks great! Notis keyboard and all. You have several you > say? Wonder how much it would be for shipping one to Norway! :-) > (I'm still without a real ND to connect one to though) > > (To Torfinn: neab.net resolves now - I could see those links just fine.) Yes, great looking terminals. How large is the screen? 15 inches or so? -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 19 17:11:38 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:11:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Feb 19, 12 06:02:07 pm" Message-ID: <201202192311.q1JNBcEX11075656@floodgap.com> > > What is a mainframe anyway, and can a > > clear distinction be made between the 'mainframe" and other server > > technologies nowadays? > > Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. B-I-G -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only abnormality is the inability to love. -- Anais Nin ---------------- From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 19 17:14:45 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:14:45 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> On 2/19/2012 4:20 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > I don't know much about mainframes. However, last night I watched an > IBM presentation about mainframes on Youtube. Part 1 (of 5) is here: > http://youtu.be/mPCvlr9QRII > > After watching all five parts, it seems that (contrary to what I > thought) the mainframe is very much alive and in fact growing in > market-share and use due to cloud computing etc. Of course there > could be a bit of IBM spin in this. > > But, it then begs the question. What is a mainframe anyway, and can a > clear distinction be made between the 'mainframe" and other server > technologies nowadays? > > Terry (Tezza) At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as a machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. Thus, Hitachi and IBM manufacture mainframes. I know that's not a good definition, but it's pretty common. And, I would say the market is still very much alive. With IFL, zIIP, and zAAP, one can run Linux and Java on the platform, while there are still mountains of COBOL out there. My firm just upgraded their z Platform, and the last company I was at just upgraded theirs in 2009. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 19 17:24:33 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:24:33 -0600 Subject: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? Message-ID: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> From a friend just getting back into hardware: "I'm wanting to catalog a large collection of chips that my Dad had so I know what I have... 7400 chips are easy to find / grab the datasheets for... Others I'm having issues as it appears manufacturer's have used the same number various times; often times locating on the web is a problem even finding the number... Major question is : 1) Is there a list of somewhere that I can use to identify the chip manufacturer's logo? Some of these chips are from the 70's. " I'm not a "vintage IC" knowledgable person, but I would be happy to pass on any links provided. I also asked him to snap some pics of ICs, and maybe folks here could point him to relevant datasheets for some of them. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 19 17:25:31 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:25:31 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home Message-ID: <014b01ccef5d$c74cd500$55e67f00$@ntlworld.com> I have a VAXstation 3100 that I would like to pass on. I acquired it recently and I have successfully booted it into VMS over the network. It does not have a disk. I am based in Stockport, UK and would prefer collection in person. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 17:27:42 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 15:27:42 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4F4114EE.17339.16AA9CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2012 at 18:02, William Donzelli wrote: > Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. CDC? SDS? XDS? NCR? RCA? --Chuck From a50mhzham at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 17:14:45 2012 From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:14:45 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4f418d89.5c1ce70a.73a8.4657@mx.google.com> So then that's a TLA? At 05:02 PM 2/19/2012, you wrote: > > What is a mainframe anyway, and can a > > clear distinction be made between the 'mainframe" and other server > > technologies nowadays? > >Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. > >-- >Will 910 . [Politics]"Ninety percent of the politicians give the other ten percent a bad reputation." - Henry Kissinger NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux User 385531 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 18:12:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:12:57 -0500 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: <179CB1BDE04A4B398BB8166E588DC70E@EMACHINE> References: <179CB1BDE04A4B398BB8166E588DC70E@EMACHINE> Message-ID: On Feb 19, 2012, at 4:42 PM, "Dave" wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William Donzelli >> Sent: 19 February 2012 20:22 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe >> >> >>> While your point is valid, if you had the facilities to >> keep and run 'NASA's last mainframe' it'd be a pretty cool >> collector's piece down the line, especially if you could get >> some kind of paperwork to prove it's heritage. I am such a >> sentimental old romantic (at 31) sometimes ;) >> >> I do not think this machine really is all that historic - if any. >> NASA's computation is far better suited to run on other architectures, >> and has been for a very long time. I think this z9 probably was >> hanging on simply because someone could not let go. >> > > I would says its not even a "Mainframe" in the classical sense of the word, > in the same way that a 16-way Intel or Sparc box running Herculesm, or even > a P370 or P390 isn't a "Mainframe" either. What it realy is I don'y know. Urrr? You wouldn't consider a z9 to be a mainframe? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA >> From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Feb 19 18:45:25 2012 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 16:45:25 -0800 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion Message-ID: <4F4197A5.2010407@mail.msu.edu> A couple of weeks back I wrote to the list asking for advice on fixing a C1581 drive (and thanks again for all the suggestions!). I now have the drive working again so I thought I'd detail my experience in case it helps someone else... Symptoms: Both LEDs (red & green) stuck on constantly, no response from drive via serial port. Drive does seek back to track zero on powerup. Power supply good. Initially, I had assumed that because the drive was seeking back to track zero on startup, that the CPU was running properly. (I later discovered that this is actually incorrect -- the 3.5" drive unit in the 1581 (an 800K unit identical to those used in the Amiga 500) does this operation itself when it is powered up.) The CPU's clock pin was pulsing so at least -something- was running. The EPROM and WD floppy controller chip are socketed in my unit. There were no visible signs of life on the WD control pins. Dumped the EPROM and verified its contents (they were good). Since the WD controller was socketed and I had a spare, I swapped it out. No joy there. At this point, lacking any other diagnostic information I decided to monitor the CPU's Address and Data lines to see if I could work out what it was trying and failing to do at powerup. Thanks to a new 40-pin DIP clip (thanks again, Ian!) it was pretty easy to connect up my logic analyzer (a Tek 1241 for those curious) and it pretty quickly became clear that while the CPU was running, it wasn't functioning properly at all. No matter how I looked at the address & data I couldn't work how it could possibly be running a valid program. Data matched up to the addresses being read (for addresses within the EPROM's address range anyway) but the ordering of the addresses did not seem to correspond to a running program. I desoldered the 6502 and stuck it in a working Apple II, and sure enough the Apple would not run with the 1581's CPU. I installed a replacement 6502 in the 1581 and I'm happy to report that it now works properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a faulty CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). - Josh From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 19:00:29 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 01:00:29 -0000 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F4114EE.17339.16AA9CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I've Been Moved ? > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 19 February 2012 23:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last > mainframe) > > > On 19 Feb 2012 at 18:02, William Donzelli wrote: > > > Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. > > CDC? SDS? XDS? NCR? RCA? > > --Chuck > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 19:03:20 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 01:03:20 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home In-Reply-To: <014b01ccef5d$c74cd500$55e67f00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Very interested, work in Stockport Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimate Non Carborundum > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 19 February 2012 23:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > I have a VAXstation 3100 that I would like to pass on. I acquired it > recently and I have successfully booted it into VMS over the > network. It > does not have a disk. > > I am based in Stockport, UK and would prefer collection in person. > > Regards > > Rob > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 19:05:00 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 01:05:00 -0000 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5231D3DC205C4453949037F2E616FC91@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 20 February 2012 00:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe > > > On Feb 19, 2012, at 4:42 PM, "Dave" wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > William Donzelli > >> Sent: 19 February 2012 20:22 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe > >> > >> > >>> While your point is valid, if you had the facilities to > >> keep and run 'NASA's last mainframe' it'd be a pretty cool > >> collector's piece down the line, especially if you could get > >> some kind of paperwork to prove it's heritage. I am such a > >> sentimental old romantic (at 31) sometimes ;) > >> > >> I do not think this machine really is all that historic - if any. > >> NASA's computation is far better suited to run on other > architectures, > >> and has been for a very long time. I think this z9 probably was > >> hanging on simply because someone could not let go. > >> > > > > I would says its not even a "Mainframe" in the classical > sense of the word, > > in the same way that a 16-way Intel or Sparc box running > Herculesm, or even > > a P370 or P390 isn't a "Mainframe" either. What it realy is > I don'y know. > > Urrr? You wouldn't consider a z9 to be a mainframe? Well its basically a box of playstation chips, wouldn't be on my list.... > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > > >> > From jon at jonworld.com Sun Feb 19 19:17:07 2012 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:17:07 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F4114EE.17339.16AA9CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> On 19 Feb 2012 at 18:02, William Donzelli wrote: >> >> > Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. >> >> CDC? ?SDS? XDS? NCR? RCA? Wouldn't Amdahl break the meme? From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 19 19:39:32 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:39:32 -0800 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: <5231D3DC205C4453949037F2E616FC91@EMACHINE> References: <5231D3DC205C4453949037F2E616FC91@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <4F41A454.1080902@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote: > Well its basically a box of playstation chips, wouldn't be on my list.... Where do you get that? Are you confusing the z9 with the IBM Roadrunner? The z9 is full of z9 microprocessors, which natively execute the z/Architecture 1 instruction set, which is an enhanced version of ESA/390, which was an enhanced version of ESA/370, which was an enhanced version of System/370 XA, which was an enhanced version of System/370, which was an enhanced version of System/360. In other words, the z9 microprocessor can natively execute System/360 and System/370 code. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 20:14:40 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:14:40 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F4114EE.17339.16AA9CC@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4F413C10.25088.203868C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2012 at 20:17, Jonathan Katz wrote: > >> On 19 Feb 2012 at 18:02, William Donzelli wrote: > >> > >> > Yes, a mainframe can be described in three letters. > >> > >> CDC? ?SDS? XDS? NCR? RCA? > > Wouldn't Amdahl break the meme? Well, so would a lot of company names, e.g. Philco, Burroughs or Univac. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 20:16:41 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:16:41 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as a > machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. Cough..cough..Unisys..cough..Clearpath..cough..cough... -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 19 20:29:25 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:29:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <4F4197A5.2010407@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Feb 19, 12 04:45:25 pm" Message-ID: <201202200229.q1K2TPlT10092764@floodgap.com> > I desoldered the 6502 and stuck it in a working Apple II, and sure > enough the Apple would not run with the 1581's CPU. I installed a > replacement 6502 in the 1581 and I'm happy to report that it now works > properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a faulty > CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). Wow, that's bizarre. 6502s don't fail very often. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin ------------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 19 20:32:29 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:32:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as a > machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. Thus, Hitachi and IBM > manufacture mainframes. I know that's not a good definition, but it's > pretty common. It's a good EXAMPLE, but . . . 1) It is NOT a definition 2) There exist mainframes that do NOT execute 370 assembler. (IBM shops may deny that, but it IS true.) 3) There exist NON-mainframes that DO execute 370 assembler. (add-on boards for 5160, do NOT change an XT into a mainframe.) If a microcomputer FALLS on you, you may be injured. If a minicomputer falls on you, you may be killed. If a mainframe falls on you, they may not find the body. are also examples (of differentiation) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 19 20:48:49 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:48:49 +1300 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: So can I gather that there is no clear definition and Jim's is probably the nearest thing that comes to defining a mainframe these days...for those people that use the term? Terry (tez) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 19 20:53:18 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 18:53:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120219185233.E42771@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > market-share and use due to cloud computing etc. Of course there > could be a bit of IBM spin in this. Is there ANY precedent of IBM spinning anything??!? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 19 20:58:21 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:58:21 +1300 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <201202200229.q1K2TPlT10092764@floodgap.com> References: <4F4197A5.2010407@mail.msu.edu> <201202200229.q1K2TPlT10092764@floodgap.com> Message-ID: They can, In the last 5 years that I've been dabbling with vintage microcomputers I've repaired at least three where the 6502 processor was the part that had failed. Terry (Tez) On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I desoldered the 6502 and stuck it in a working Apple II, and sure > > enough the Apple would not run with the 1581's CPU. I installed a > > replacement 6502 in the 1581 and I'm happy to report that it now works > > properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a faulty > > CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). > > Wow, that's bizarre. 6502s don't fail very often. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Well done is better than well said. -- Benjamin Franklin > ------------------- > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 19 21:09:07 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:09:07 +1300 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Just to follow my own question.... This is what wikipedia says about it...would others agree? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainframe_computer On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > So can I gather that there is no clear definition and Jim's is probably > the nearest thing that comes to defining a mainframe these days...for those > people that use the term? > > Terry (tez) > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 19 21:21:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:21:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > So can I gather that there is no clear definition That is CORRECT. There has never been a definitive definition, but MANY by marketing people who do NOT understand. > and Jim's is probably the > nearest thing that comes to defining a mainframe these days...for those > people that use the term? It's certainly a good EXAMPLE. But, it is NOT a definition. The whole world is not 370. The whole world is not Unix. The whole world is not Windoze. The best that we've come up with have been differentiation examples. You can pick up and carry a microcomputer A minicomputer has casters, or you will need a really solid handtruck. A mainframe requires a forklift and a union moving crew. Howzbout: How do you get it up or down stairs? You can lose a screw in a microcomputer. You can lose a screwdriver in a minicomputer. You can lose a scope in a mainframe. (It is an exaggeration to say that a person could get lost in one. I think.) A microcomputer requires a mains outlet. A minicomputer requires a mains circuit. A mainframe requires a mains account. Your neighbors find your microcomputers amusing. Your neighbors find your minicomputers worrisome. Your neighbors find your mainframes terrifying. Your microcomputer won't have a significant effect on your power bill. Your minicomputer will have a significant effect on your power bill. Your mainframe will attract the attention of the DEA (hydroponics?) and HSA. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 21:21:31 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:21:31 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4F41BC3B.2010402@neurotica.com> On 02/19/2012 10:09 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Just to follow my own question.... > > This is what wikipedia says about it...would others agree? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainframe_computer There's nothing in there that jumps out at me as being obviously wrong. I'd say it's summed up there pretty well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Feb 19 21:26:46 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 03:26:46 +0000 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FC923@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Terry Stewart Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 7:09 PM > On Mon, Feb 20, 2012 at 3:48 PM, Terry Stewart > >wrote: >> So can I gather that there is no clear definition and Jim's is >> probably the nearest thing that comes to defining a mainframe >> these days...for those people that use the term? > This is what wikipedia says about it...would others agree? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mainframe_computer For what it's worth, I agree with the main points of the Wikipedia article. It's certainly in line with what I would tell a visitor not familiar with the field of Information Systems as part of an overall definition of what a computer is and a description of what a computer can do. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 19 21:46:24 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:46:24 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> On 2/19/2012 8:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: >> At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as a >> machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. Thus, Hitachi and IBM >> manufacture mainframes. I know that's not a good definition, but it's >> pretty common. > It's a good EXAMPLE, but . . . > 1) It is NOT a definition > > 2) There exist mainframes that do NOT execute 370 assembler. > (IBM shops may deny that, but it IS true.) > > 3) There exist NON-mainframes that DO execute 370 assembler. > (add-on boards for 5160, do NOT change an XT into a mainframe.) I think I can speak definitively for contemporary IT environments, which is how I started my sentence. I did constrain my statement appropriately, and I did note that the definition was not good, but it is the truth. I have no issues with folks being pedantic, but the above just smacks of knowledge "showboating". And, yes, for those IT shops that remember the "mainframe on a card", they would indeed call that a mainframe. MIPS are not important to the definition. The solution also need not run zOS, as many people run all zIIP or zAAP modules and they still call it a mainframe. As for the "ClearPath" response, I can only say that in all my years at IT functions, I have never seen a product or service referring to such a machine as a mainframe. I think in contemporary IT, it would be denoted as a "ClearPath Server", so as to avoid confusing folks who do indeed expect "mainframe" to be a 370-based machine (unless the ClearPath runs 370 assembler as well, but with it's Burroughs heritage, I would assume not). Like I said, it's not a good definition, but it is the one that is commonly used in IT today. If your solution will natively execute 370 assembler, people would refer to it as a mainframe. Actually, the IT advertising folks would call it "legacy", or "big iron", depending on the advertising context. Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 22:00:02 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:00:02 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > As for the "ClearPath" response, I can only say that in all my years at IT > functions, I have never seen a product or service referring to such a > machine as a mainframe. Well, don't tell Unisys that. >?I think in contemporary IT, it would be denoted as > a "ClearPath Server", so as to avoid confusing folks who do indeed expect > "mainframe" to be a 370-based machine (unless the ClearPath runs 370 > assembler as well, but with it's Burroughs heritage, I would assume not). Clearpath Libra runs the Burroughs architecture, and Clearpath Dorado runs the Univac architecture. Both are still in production, albeit in tiny numbers. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 22:08:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:08:39 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> References: , , <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2012 at 19:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > > So can I gather that there is no clear definition > > That is CORRECT. > There has never been a definitive definition, but MANY by marketing > people who do NOT understand. Supreme Court justices trying to define pornography. You can give some characteristics that might qualify a given hunk of iron as having mainframe status, but there will always be an exception. If it requires special cooling (e.g. chilled water, liquid nitrogen), it's probably a mainframe. If its DC power is derived from the output of an MG set, it's probably a mainframe. If it contains over a ton of wire, it's probably a mainframe. ... From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 19 22:10:44 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:10:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > 3) There exist NON-mainframes that DO execute 370 assembler. > (add-on boards for 5160, do NOT change an XT into a mainframe.) I remember seeing magazine ads for this sort of thing. It showed a PC in a room once occupied by a mainframe of some sort with all the cables now going into the PC. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 19 22:12:59 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 20:12:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> > >> At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as a > >> machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. Thus, Hitachi and IBM > >> manufacture mainframes. I know that's not a good definition, but it's > >> pretty common. > > It's a good EXAMPLE, but . . . > > 1) It is NOT a definition > > 2) There exist mainframes that do NOT execute 370 assembler. > > (IBM shops may deny that, but it IS true.) > > 3) There exist NON-mainframes that DO execute 370 assembler. > > (add-on boards for 5160, do NOT change an XT into a mainframe.) On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > I think I can speak definitively for contemporary IT environments, which > is how I started my sentence. I did constrain my statement > appropriately, and I did note that the definition was not good, but it > is the truth. I have no issues with folks being pedantic, but the above > just smacks of knowledge "showboating". No knowlege to showboat. You definitely have the contemporary expertise. Other than some database access on 4381?, I don't even SEE mainframes. > And, yes, for those IT shops that remember the "mainframe on a card", > they would indeed call that a mainframe. MIPS are not important to the > definition. The solution also need not run zOS, as many people run all > zIIP or zAAP modules and they still call it a mainframe. I am amazed that an XT/370 would be called a "mainframe". And, . . . would all machines that were once called "mainframes" that do NOT tun 370 code, now NO LONGER be mainframes? From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun Feb 19 22:34:48 2012 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:34:48 +1100 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: The term 'mainframe' helped to categorize the physical aspect of machines from the 1950s through 1980s , but since then it has diminished as a differentiator. The mainframe architecture which emphasized dedicated processors to handle IO, front-end processors, support for large numbers of diverse peripheral devices, OSes which included batch and interactive services, also appears to help categorize machines into the 1980s. After that these combination of features started to appear in new systems or were added as extensions to so-called midrange systems (not only IBM), increasingly on lower cost systems. The distinctive mainframe 'style' of computing: the way of interacting with the operating system, OS design, communication protocols, legacy support - captures systems onwards beyond the 1980s till present day. This includes desktop (PC), small deskside cabinet implementations of mainframes like IBM XT/370, P/390, Unisys SCAMP (A-series, Unisys System 80), but also the newer (current day) technology implementations like the z-Series and the Unisys Libra. This criteria helps to answer the question: "What type of computing is a P/390 or Hercules Simulator showing? Answer: a mainframe style of computing, it is not a physical mainframe, but the manifestation shown is a mainframe.'. The marketing folks latched onto the mainframe term as a way to garner some of the halo effect of big, powerful, expensive ("THIS product is just as good as a mainframe but cheaper" etc), meet-the-needs-of-any-business mantra which sold them so well through the early decades. I think at various times marketeers tied themselves into knots trying to reconcile the categories. Unisys advertised the A1 as a "small-frame" computer in the late 1980s. Therefore mainframe only exists today as a identifiable category because examples of the legacy architecture (although significantly updated in technology and implementation) continue to exist. If the mainframe products of IBM and Unisys [*] disappeared tomorrow, the idea of mainframe (as we collectively know them) would fade too. [*] I expect there are other manufacturers, I am using IBM and Unisys as just two examples. From brain at jbrain.com Sun Feb 19 23:01:32 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:01:32 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> On 2/19/2012 10:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I am amazed that an XT/370 would be called a "mainframe". :-) The XT/370 is not the last word in such units (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-based_IBM-compatible_mainframes). > > > And, . . . > would all machines that were once called "mainframes" that do NOT tun 370 > code, now NO LONGER be mainframes? I've heard them referred to as "legacy environments", which is ambiguous since people call the 370 architecture "legacy" as well. The only terms I've heard folks use are the manufacturer or model: I've folks talk about the "Burroughs", and the "UNIVAC System". I won't argue that a complete definition needs to include these other machines, but the term has been largely "redefined" to be 370-based systems at this point. I will still stand by my statement that the term refers to 370-compatible systems, but I did find a few notes (http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Infrastructure/Unisys-Unveils-New-ClearPath-Mainframes-Support-for-iPad-Android-Devices-878709/) referring to Unisys' machines as mainframes. I'll concede the point, but I think one would be hard pressed to find many in IT that even know about Unisys' big-iron solutions. Most people do know them in relation to their Tandem machines. Maybe, the best contemporary definition is "a current computing system that can natively execute code written in a machine architecture commercially available before 1970" (or some arbitrary date that covers the various machines one typically identifies with a mainframe moniker). Note that this would preclude such Hitachi systems that actually run on Xeon CPUs and emulate the z Architecture, but I'm sure some wordsmithing could fix that while keeping things like Hercules emulator from falling into the definition's space. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 19 23:25:00 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:25:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > Maybe, the best contemporary definition is "a current computing system that > can natively execute code written in a machine architecture commercially > available before 1970" (or some arbitrary date that covers the various > machines one typically identifies with a mainframe moniker). Note that this > would preclude such Hitachi systems that actually run on Xeon CPUs and > emulate the z Architecture, but I'm sure some wordsmithing could fix that > while keeping things like Hercules emulator from falling into the > definition's space. I see that Unisys is moving their machinery over to using Xeon CPUs. What does that make the new Unisys machines? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 19 23:31:29 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:31:29 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> On Feb 20, 2012, at 12:25 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > >> Maybe, the best contemporary definition is "a current computing system that can natively execute code written in a machine architecture commercially available before 1970" (or some arbitrary date that covers the various machines one typically identifies with a mainframe moniker). Note that this would preclude such Hitachi systems that actually run on Xeon CPUs and emulate the z Architecture, but I'm sure some wordsmithing could fix that while keeping things like Hercules emulator from falling into the definition's space. > > I see that Unisys is moving their machinery over to using Xeon CPUs. What does that make the new Unisys machines? PCs! I'll bet several people got Intel-branded yachts for making that move. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 19 23:34:05 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:34:05 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: , <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2012 at 15:34, Nigel Williams wrote: > The term 'mainframe' helped to categorize the physical aspect of > machines from the 1950s through 1980s , but since then it has > diminished as a differentiator. I think we're getting tangled up in what's sufficient to call something a mainframe (e.g. it weighs 20 tons and requires at least 50 tons of cooling to operate) and what's necessary ( ...???...) for something to be called mainframe. Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid way, such that any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in question to qualify as a "mainframe"? I don't think so. I think that "what it's used for" isn't a valid criterion. I've used many pieces of iron that were used for nothing more than compiling and running simple programs their entire service life. Some mainframes were little more than I/O front-ends for other mainframes. Hence my paraphrase of the famous Justice Potter Stewart quote and an oblique reference to the elephant test. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 19 23:45:42 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:45:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 20, 2012, at 12:25 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: >> >>> Maybe, the best contemporary definition is "a current computing system that can natively execute code written in a machine architecture commercially available before 1970" (or some arbitrary date that covers the various machines one typically identifies with a mainframe moniker). Note that this would preclude such Hitachi systems that actually run on Xeon CPUs and emulate the z Architecture, but I'm sure some wordsmithing could fix that while keeping things like Hercules emulator from falling into the definition's space. >> >> I see that Unisys is moving their machinery over to using Xeon CPUs. What does that make the new Unisys machines? > > PCs! > > I'll bet several people got Intel-branded yachts for making that move. This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? SGI is just another Intel server company. HP ditched PA-RISC and Alpha to fart around with Itanium and otherwise sells Intel. Sun/Oracle is still going with Sparc, but for how much longer? Oh, and they also sell Intel. Cray ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for AMD. Who did I miss? Is there any meaningful research going on to produce an alternative to the Intel/AMD monoculture? ARM servers sound nice, but so far it's vaporware. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 19 23:48:37 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:48:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net>, <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Feb 2012 at 15:34, Nigel Williams wrote: > >> The term 'mainframe' helped to categorize the physical aspect of >> machines from the 1950s through 1980s , but since then it has >> diminished as a differentiator. > > I think we're getting tangled up in what's sufficient to call > something a mainframe (e.g. it weighs 20 tons and requires at least > 50 tons of cooling to operate) and what's necessary ( ...???...) for > something to be called mainframe. > > Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid way, such that > any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in question to > qualify as a "mainframe"? > > I don't think so. > > I think that "what it's used for" isn't a valid criterion. I've used > many pieces of iron that were used for nothing more than compiling > and running simple programs their entire service life. Some > mainframes were little more than I/O front-ends for other mainframes. > > Hence my paraphrase of the famous Justice Potter Stewart quote and > an oblique reference to the elephant test. Perhaps if you define computers in number of refrigerators it's equivalent in size to. A mini fridge up to one or two standard fridges is a mini. More than two fridges makes it a mainframe. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 19 23:54:50 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:54:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "Feb 19, 12 09:45:42 pm" Message-ID: <201202200554.q1K5soH18913068@floodgap.com> > This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU > monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of > tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? SGI is just > another Intel server company. HP ditched PA-RISC and Alpha to fart around > with Itanium and otherwise sells Intel. Sun/Oracle is still going with > Sparc, but for how much longer? Oh, and they also sell Intel. Cray > ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for AMD. Who did I miss? POWER. There might not be Power Macs anymore, but every major console is PowerPC, and IBM makes buck$$$ on POWER servers (says the man who dropped $9K on a used POWER6). Plus PowerPC is crazy common in embedded environments and there are still PPC Amigas. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby. -- Tom Waits ------------- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 20 00:11:25 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:11:25 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2012 Feb 19, at 7:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > You can lose a screw in a microcomputer. > You can lose a screwdriver in a minicomputer. > You can lose a scope in a mainframe. > (It is an exaggeration to say that a person could get lost in one. I > think.) Whirlwind & SAGE From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 20 00:38:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 01:38:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <201202200638.BAA17888@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as >>> a machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. >> [...] > I have no issues with folks being pedantic, but [...] Well, if you don't mind folks being pedantic... ...then surely you meant "machine code" rather than "assembler"? I'd be surprised if there's _any_ hardware that natively executes 370 _assembler_ code (but it'd be a pretty cool hack if there were!). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Feb 20 00:39:02 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:39:02 +0100 Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von David Griffith : > This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU > monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of > tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? Don't write off MIPS that fast. A lot of new embedded Designs are MIPS based, a lot of research (china!) goes into the MIPS architecture. > HP ditched PA-RISC and Alpha to > fart around with Itanium and otherwise sells Intel. Seems that Itanium is not there to stay either. So "just" an Intel shop ... > Is there any meaningful research going on to produce an alternative to > the Intel/AMD monoculture? ARM servers sound nice, but so far it's > vaporware. ARM still has to deliver the performance there. Nice for power saving tablets, but for anything else ... Cheers From brain at jbrain.com Mon Feb 20 00:45:33 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 00:45:33 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <201202200638.BAA17888@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <201202200638.BAA17888@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F41EC0D.9060308@jbrain.com> On 2/20/2012 12:38 AM, Mouse wrote: >>>> At least in contemporary IT environments, a mainframe is defined as >>>> a machine that will natively execute 370 assembler. >>> [...] >> I have no issues with folks being pedantic, but [...] > Well, if you don't mind folks being pedantic... > > ...then surely you meant "machine code" rather than "assembler"? I'd > be surprised if there's _any_ hardware that natively executes 370 > _assembler_ code (but it'd be a pretty cool hack if there were!). Yep, I did. It's a good distinction. What tripped me up is that the common vernacular is to call is 370 assembler code, not 370 machine code. I'm not sure why, but that's the term they use. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 00:47:19 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:47:19 -0800 Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: , <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com>, Message-ID: <4F417BF7.27224.2FD2457@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2012 at 21:45, David Griffith wrote: > This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU > monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of > tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? Interestingly, the R4000 architecture is pretty much quoted verbatim in the PIC32 microcontrollers. It is odd to think about a MIPS CPU that also implements USB OTG,. > Cray ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for > AMD. Who did I miss? Well, Cray isn't the Cray of Seymour, remember. That's long gone-- "Cray" is only the name for the company formerly known as Tera. That one would expect the current Cray to carry on the Chippewa Falls tradition of innovation is unrealistic. --Chuck From paisley at erols.com Sun Feb 19 20:07:30 2012 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 21:07:30 -0500 Subject: DEC H960 Rack Message-ID: <13d101ccef74$6727d410$020a0a0a@cj2a> Help! I am looking for a DEC H960 rack to house my PDP-8. I don't care what condition it is in as I am going to sandblast it and have it powdercoated. I am willing to offer a reward leading to me obtaining one. I am located in the eastern US. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank. Todd Paisley From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 19 21:05:44 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 19:05:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> why do you assume it's the monitors seeing neither work? Couldn't it be your U1? Or possibly even the video cable. I'm guessing the U1 has a 13w3 connector on the back, meaning you don't have a pc or mac to bnc cable (I have a number of each). If you did, you could plug the monitors into most anything to determine if the problem is indeed w/them. You may not get a legible picture, or a single one, but that might tell the story. I never had to repair any Sony monitor, which speaks to their reliability, so I couldn't help you w/repair issues. The only issue I ever had was when, it seemed, someone rammed a vacuum cleaner into a GDM-something, that refused to turn on, being the switch was decimated. You could go the absolute low tech way and use jumper wires to connect a pc say to the Sun video cable. If you're careful you should be able to determine something. I've gone as far as to wind coils around tiny drill bits and pushing them onto pins. You get the picture (I hope). From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 20 01:07:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 02:07:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F41EC0D.9060308@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <201202200638.BAA17888@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F41EC0D.9060308@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <201202200707.CAA18281@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> ...then surely you meant "machine code" rather than "assembler"? > Yep, I did. It's a good distinction. What tripped me up is that the > common vernacular is to call is 370 assembler code, not 370 machine > code. I'm not sure why, but that's the term they use. I'm not sure why either, but similar things apply in other fields; for example, in my own work I might well say something like "at this point, it's executing C code" even though, of course, a more precise phrasing would be more like "...executing machine code generated by compiling C code". I wonder whether this is just verbal shorthand, or mental blurring of the lines between the various levels, or what.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 01:27:28 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:27:28 +0000 Subject: NASA unplugs last mainframe In-Reply-To: References: <5231D3DC205C4453949037F2E616FC91@EMACHINE> <4F41A454.1080902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I was, it was late in the uk. Note that whilst in general a z9 can run 360 applications it can not run 360 or 370 operating systems as it does not support 370 style io instructions. On 20 Feb 2012 01:42, "Eric Smith" wrote: Dave wrote: > > Well its basically a box of playstation chips, wouldn't be on my list.... Where do you get that? Are you confusing the z9 with the IBM Roadrunner? The z9 is full of z9 microprocessors, which natively execute the z/Architecture 1 instruction set, which is an enhanced version of ESA/390, which was an enhanced version of ESA/370, which was an enhanced version of System/370 XA, which was an enhanced version of System/370, which was an enhanced version of System/360. In other words, the z9 microprocessor can natively execute System/360 and System/370 code. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 20 01:34:44 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:34:44 -0800 Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2012 Feb 19, at 7:05 PM, Chris M wrote: > why do you assume it's the monitors seeing neither work? Couldn't > it be your U1? Or possibly even the video cable. > > I'm guessing the U1 has a 13w3 connector on the back, meaning you > don't have a pc or mac to bnc cable (I have a number of each). If > you did, you could plug the monitors into most anything to > determine if the problem is indeed w/them. You may not get a > legible picture, or a single one, but that might tell the story. I > never had to repair any Sony monitor, which speaks to their > reliability, so I couldn't help you w/repair issues. The only issue > I ever had was when, it seemed, someone rammed a vacuum cleaner > into a GDM-something, that refused to turn on, being the switch was > decimated. I have two (what I understand to be) Sony GDM monitors (19 inch IIRC) - one SUN-branded and one Apple-branded. They both have problems: on one the blue is gone (probably a video driver and not too difficult to repair), the other has an intermittent in the convergence circuitry - for some minutes it will be fine, then the convergence will shift for some minutes, shift back, and so on. They're boat anchors and surplus to me, and so are on the scrap/ recycle list unless somebody wants to take them away. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 20 01:37:59 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 23:37:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <201202200554.q1K5soH18913068@floodgap.com> References: <201202200554.q1K5soH18913068@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU >> monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of >> tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? SGI is just >> another Intel server company. HP ditched PA-RISC and Alpha to fart around >> with Itanium and otherwise sells Intel. Sun/Oracle is still going with >> Sparc, but for how much longer? Oh, and they also sell Intel. Cray >> ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for AMD. Who did I miss? > > POWER. There might not be Power Macs anymore, but every major console is > PowerPC, and IBM makes buck$$$ on POWER servers (says the man who dropped > $9K on a used POWER6). Plus PowerPC is crazy common in embedded environments > and there are still PPC Amigas. > Ah, yes... Where are the PowerPC ATX motherboards we were promised? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From kspt.tor at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 02:55:59 2012 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:55:59 +0100 Subject: Nokia terminals (Was: Apple ][ disk/game server) In-Reply-To: <4F33CA03.3020806@acc.umu.se> References: <4F323529.4060402@acc.umu.se> <4F33CA03.3020806@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: (sorry if this is a duplicate - re-sent because I mailed from (I believe) a non-subscribed address the first time) 2012/2/9 G?ran Axelsson : > Tor, if you are interested I'm certain something can be arranged. If you can > wait a while maybe a transport could be arranged. Where in Norway do you > live? And you know that I also have some extra satellites and compacts in my > storage. ?;-) > > I think I'll keep the ND-5000 and the butterfly for now... ?:-D :-) > /G?ran I'm in Troms?, so just about as far from you as if I were in Oslo, just the other direction. I'm occasionally (although more often in the past) in Kiruna though, visiting the ESA satellite station, but that's about the nearest I get to where I believe you are located - not exactly next door. As for waiting, I'm fully prepared to wait for a very long time :-) (I'm going to move to a bigger house with more space at some point). -Tor From ama at ugr.es Mon Feb 20 04:06:21 2012 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 11:06:21 +0100 Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 07:05:44PM -0800, Chris M wrote: > why do you assume it's the monitors seeing > neither work? Couldn't it be your U1? Or > possibly even the video cable. Because 1) they don't work either with my Ultra 10; 2) both the Ultra 1 and the Ultra 10 work fine with a different monitor; 3) both cables work fine with the other monitor; 4) the monitors won't start. > I'm guessing the U1 has a 13w3 connector on the > back, meaning you don't have a pc or mac to bnc > cable (I have a number of each). Yes, both the U1 and the U10 have such a connector on the back. Unfortunately I don't have such a cable. > You could go the absolute low tech way and use > jumper wires to connect a pc say to the Sun > video cable. If you're careful you should be > able to determine something. I'm afraid my electronic skills (which are close to zero) won't allow me to do that. Although I know somebody who is and who could help me when I know what needs to be done. Thank you. ?ngel -- Angel Martin Alganza Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de Granada Full contact data at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ PGP Public key at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 05:41:48 2012 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:41:48 +0100 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: , <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net>, <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F42317C.3080806@gmail.com> On 2012-02-20 6:48, David Griffith wrote: > A mini fridge up to one or two standard fridges is a mini. I have two Silicon Graphics Crimsons at home. They're classified (by SGI) as "deskside workstations". And rightly so, I would say: they're specifically designed for workstation use. On the other hand, I also own an Origin 2000 deskside, which, while comparable in size to the Crimson, is specifically designed for server use, and could probably qualify for the "mini" moniker. .tsooJ From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 06:45:24 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 07:45:24 -0500 Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 20, 2012, at 0:45, David Griffith wrote: > This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? SGI is just another Intel server company. HP ditched PA-RISC and Alpha to fart around with Itanium and otherwise sells Intel. Sun/Oracle is still going with Sparc, but for how much longer? Oh, and they also sell Intel. Cray ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for AMD. Who did I miss? MIPS is still fairly common in embedded devices, especially routers. PowerPC is also a fairly common embedded device, mostly in telecom (but certainly not exclusively). As ARMs become more powerful and Moore's law makes performance per MHz less relevant, ARM is starting to take those slots, too, though. I actually like ARM (certainly a lot more than 8086), but yes, the whole "monoculture" aspect Is worrying. > Is there any meaningful research going on to produce an alternative to the Intel/AMD monoculture? ARM servers sound nice, but so far it's vaporware. I mean, I guess they sound nice, but once you make an ARM as performance-oriented as modern x86 processors, you lose most of the power benefits. It's an architecture that was designed primarily around simplicity in silicon rather than raw speed, and that's carried through even to the most advanced modern implementations; for example, IIRC, it's only recently that they've had branch prediction hardware. - Dave From chrise at pobox.com Mon Feb 20 08:10:10 2012 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:10:10 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <201202200229.q1K2TPlT10092764@floodgap.com> References: <4F4197A5.2010407@mail.msu.edu> <201202200229.q1K2TPlT10092764@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20120220141010.GA17730@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (02/19/2012 at 06:29PM -0800), Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > I desoldered the 6502 and stuck it in a working Apple II, and sure > > enough the Apple would not run with the 1581's CPU. I installed a > > replacement 6502 in the 1581 and I'm happy to report that it now works > > properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a faulty > > CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). > > Wow, that's bizarre. 6502s don't fail very often. I was given an Apple ][+ which was deader than a doornail... and indeed, it was the 6502 that was shot. It was an SY6502 (Synertek) FWIW. Dropped a new one in the socket and the machine runs just fine. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ats at offog.org Mon Feb 20 08:59:49 2012 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:59:49 +0000 Subject: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? In-Reply-To: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> (Jim Brain's message of "Sun, 19 Feb 2012 17:24:33 -0600") References: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Jim Brain writes: > Major question is : 1) Is there a list of somewhere that I can use to > identify the chip manufacturer's logo? Some of these chips are from > the 70's. " The splendidly wacky Diverse Devices site has a collection of 70s-90s manufacturer logos: http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo1h.jpg http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo2h.jpg http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo3h.jpg http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo4h.jpg Key and links to others here: http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logotext.htm -- Adam Sampson From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 09:41:36 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:41:36 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: > I see that Unisys is moving their machinery over to using Xeon CPUs. ?What > does that make the new Unisys machines? They have been moving to Intel emulation for something like 10 or 15 years, and the low end machines are completely Intel, but the high end machines are still using homespun CMOS. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 09:43:47 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:43:47 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid way, such that > any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in question to > qualify as a "mainframe"? > Fill in the first question mark with an "R". Fill the middle one with an "A". Fill the last one with a "S". Then go look it up. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 10:20:54 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 11:20:54 -0500 Subject: Documation card readers available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regarding the card readers: I am still waiting to hear from the owner about pricing and such, so everyone please keep your pants on. I suspect everything will go OK, but I know the widow is extremely busy taking care of the business shutdown, and this deal is probably pretty low on her to do list. As far as payment is concerned, they indicated that Paypal would probably be a good option. Perhaps all interested parties should send me your phone numbers (off list), and then if need be, I can call you during the day (Wednesday?), and you can shoot over a Paypal payment right then and there. -- Will From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 20 10:21:37 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 08:21:37 -0800 Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F417BF7.27224.2FD2457@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com>, , , <4F417BF7.27224.2FD2457@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hi I doubt they'd be doing much different today if it was the old company. It is all about calculations per watt per unit volume. It is no longer about the fastest processor design. That is for gamers with cooling systems designed to cool houses but used to a single graphics processor. What Cray did then was push the current technology to the limit. The limits have since been redefined. Dwight > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2012 22:47:19 -0800 > Subject: Re: CPU monoculture > > On 19 Feb 2012 at 21:45, David Griffith wrote: > > > This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU > > monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of > > tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? > > Interestingly, the R4000 architecture is pretty much quoted verbatim > in the PIC32 microcontrollers. It is odd to think about a MIPS CPU > that also implements USB OTG,. > > > Cray ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for > > AMD. Who did I miss? > > Well, Cray isn't the Cray of Seymour, remember. That's long gone-- > "Cray" is only the name for the company formerly known as Tera. > That one would expect the current Cray to carry on the Chippewa Falls > tradition of innovation is unrealistic. > > --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 20 10:28:02 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 11:28:02 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F427492.1050908@neurotica.com> On 02/20/2012 10:43 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid way, such that >> any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in question to >> qualify as a "mainframe"? > > Fill in the first question mark with an "R". Fill the middle one with > an "A". Fill the last one with a "S". > > Then go look it up. VERY well put!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 20 11:22:14 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:22:14 +0000 Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F428146.3050800@philpem.me.uk> On 06/02/12 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: > Is that _all_ you hurled at him? I would have thought a medium-sized > mains transformer would be a suitable missile here :-). Even more so if > it has exposed connections and is plugged in at the time... He was extremely lucky. And I haven't seen him since :) > Take the keyboard apart, clean the membeane pads and the LED leads with a > Q-tip and propan-2-ol. For obvisou reasons don't try to solder to the > membrane sheet... Well that's a given. The melting point of solder is, after all, much higher than that of plastic... I'd be tempted to try the PCB cleaning block (one of those brown rubber things from Maplins, but Rapid and Farnell sell them too) if I had a suitable support for the LED legs. > And surely you know how to test LEDs... (analogue ohmmeter, some DMM > diode test ranges, battery and resistor, etc) ... Peak Atlas DCA05 Semiconductor Analyser? :) (As in, the little blue box which IDs the pinout and basic parameters of transistors, diodes, FETs and so on) The multimeter works too, but only just -- the DCA will drive the LED at a decent brightness, the DMM requires that the bench light be turned off in order to see the LED... >> One of the many alternative uses for a roll of 'rainbow' IDC cable :) > > I often use an offcut of stripboard or a DIL socket/IC for this.... I guess you meant "to ID the pin spacing" -- I meant "to work around the issue of mismatched pin spacing". IDC cable has a pitch of 0.05in (1.27mm) as standard, and can be cut and formed to match most pin spacings greater than or equal to that. > I have a small metalwork vice on my electronics bench for criming IDC > sockets, holdign things when soldering, etc. I've got a small ball-head hobby vice for some of that, a Panavise with PCB holder, and the obligatory set of Helping Hands. The Panavise gets the most use. (I also have a set of hand-crimpers for IDC plugs... somewhere...) > I've never needed the > helping hands, I cna normally hold the cable by hand when soldering to a > DIN plug. Even if I do end up with burnt fingers... I prefer to avoid burned fingers wherever possible. Makes it a bit of a pig to type... :) *tap* "Oww." *tappatappa* "Oww, dammit." ..... >>> Indeed... There are some phono plubs with a sliding sleeve on the >>> outside so that the ground makes first, but they are not common... >> >> I was wondering if anyone had done that... > > I can't rememebr where I saw them, but it was one of the well-known > connector manufacturers who made them. Sounds like something Neutrik would do. >> Probably rather pointless too -- most of the time, phono plugs go in >> when the stereo is set up, and are left until a house-move or whatever. > > You don't live in my workshop... ;-0 I also don't hook experimental gear up to my office sound system. I have an LM386-based bench amplifier for that. Even has a built in speaker, and a volume control labelled from 0 to 11 :) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 11:24:01 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 09:24:01 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: , <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2012 at 10:43, William Donzelli wrote: > > Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid way, such that > > any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in question to > > qualify as a "mainframe"? > > > > Fill in the first question mark with an "R". Fill the middle one with > an "A". Fill the last one with a "S". If you're referencing "Reliability, Availability and Serviceability", I think that's not specific enough. ILLIAC IV was certainly a mainframe and had none of those. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Feb 20 11:47:46 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:47:46 +0100 Subject: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? In-Reply-To: References: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <005f01cceff7$c4c99e90$4e5cdbb0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Adam Sampson > Verzonden: maandag 20 februari 2012 16:00 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? > > Jim Brain writes: > > > Major question is : 1) Is there a list of somewhere that I can use to > > identify the chip manufacturer's logo? Some of these chips are from > > the 70's. " > > The splendidly wacky Diverse Devices site has a collection of 70s-90s > manufacturer logos: > http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo1h.jpg > http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo2h.jpg > http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo3h.jpg > http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logo4h.jpg > > Key and links to others here: > http://www.diverse.4mg.com/logotext.htm > > -- > Adam Sampson Which is blocked by Mcafee as dangerous site.!! -Rik From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 12:07:44 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:07:44 -0000 Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1D3818C5FEF844659CA5BA9FA34604DA@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: 20 February 2012 05:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: CPU monoculture > > > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On Feb 20, 2012, at 12:25 AM, David Griffith > wrote: > >> On Sun, 19 Feb 2012, Jim Brain wrote: > >> > >>> Maybe, the best contemporary definition is "a current > computing system that can natively execute code written in a > machine architecture commercially available before 1970" (or > some arbitrary date that covers the various machines one > typically identifies with a mainframe moniker). Note that > this would preclude such Hitachi systems that actually run on > Xeon CPUs and emulate the z Architecture, but I'm sure some > wordsmithing could fix that while keeping things like > Hercules emulator from falling into the definition's space. > >> > >> I see that Unisys is moving their machinery over to using > Xeon CPUs. What does that make the new Unisys machines? > > > > PCs! > > > > I'll bet several people got Intel-branded yachts for > making that move. > > This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU > monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the > exception of > tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? > SGI is just > another Intel server company. HP ditched PA-RISC and Alpha > to fart around > with Itanium and otherwise sells Intel. Sun/Oracle is still > going with > Sparc, but for how much longer? Oh, and they also sell Intel. Cray > ditched its vector, Alpha, and Sparc designs for AMD. Who did I miss? > All the 68000 based pizza boxes, Apple & Motorola on the PowerPC > Is there any meaningful research going on to produce an > alternative to the > Intel/AMD monoculture? ARM servers sound nice, but so far > it's vaporware. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 12:15:34 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:15:34 +0000 Subject: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? In-Reply-To: <005f01cceff7$c4c99e90$4e5cdbb0$@xs4all.nl> References: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> <005f01cceff7$c4c99e90$4e5cdbb0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: It crashed my firefox, I would give that site a wide berth Dave Caroline From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 12:16:20 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:16:20 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > If you're referencing "Reliability, Availability and Serviceability", > I think that's not specific enough. ?ILLIAC IV was certainly a > mainframe and had none of those. ILLIAC IV was not a mainframe. It was a lab animal. - Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 12:26:48 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:26:48 +0000 Subject: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: On 20 February 2012 06:39, wrote: > Zitat von David Griffith : > > >> This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU >> monoculture. ?Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of >> tablets and phones which often use ARM. ?What became of MIPS? > > > Don't write off MIPS that fast. A lot of new embedded Designs are MIPS > based, > a lot of research (china!) goes into the MIPS architecture. It's more than just research. China has the Godson and Longson chips, which are MIPS. There are entire machines using them - such as most of the ~?80 "netbooks" running WinCE that you can get, or Richard Stallman's all-free laptop. In the higher end, there are the TileEra 32-core and 64-core CPUs. MIPS is undergoing a bit of resurgence. Meanwhile, ARM is doing great as well - the high-end ARMs are *very* performance-competitive with low-power-draw x86 parts such as Atom or Via Eden. There's a *lot* of interest in ARM at the moment, especially things like Raspberry Pi. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 12:28:07 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:28:07 +0000 Subject: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? In-Reply-To: References: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> <005f01cceff7$c4c99e90$4e5cdbb0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On 20 February 2012 18:15, Dave Caroline wrote: > It crashed my firefox, I would give that site a wide berth Works fine here in Chrome and Firefox both. /Terrible/ looking site, though. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 12:48:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 10:48:17 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: , <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F4224F1.13024.587CE4@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2012 at 13:16, William Donzelli wrote: > > If you're referencing "Reliability, Availability and > > Serviceability", I think that's not specific enough. ?ILLIAC IV was > > certainly a mainframe and had none of those. > > ILLIAC IV was not a mainframe. It was a lab animal. There were and are many multiple-redundancy setups using microprocessors-I worked on one using IBM 5160s back in the 80s. Reiable--absolutely. Available--ditto. Serviceable--just pull the offending 5160 and plug in a new one. But it was not a mainframe and I don't think anyone would be confused enough to call it one. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Feb 20 13:10:26 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:10:26 +0100 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <4F4197A5.2010407@mail.msu.edu> References: <4F4197A5.2010407@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20120220191026.GA33376@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Josh Dersch wrote: > A couple of weeks back I wrote to the list asking for advice on fixing a > C1581 drive (and thanks again for all the suggestions!). I now have the > drive working again so I thought I'd detail my experience in case it > helps someone else... > > Symptoms: Both LEDs (red & green) stuck on constantly, no response from > drive via serial port. Drive does seek back to track zero on powerup. > Power supply good. > > Initially, I had assumed that because the drive was seeking back to > track zero on startup, that the CPU was running properly. (I later > discovered that this is actually incorrect -- the 3.5" drive unit in the > 1581 (an 800K unit identical to those used in the Amiga 500) does this > operation itself when it is powered up.) The CPU's clock pin was > pulsing so at least -something- was running. > > The EPROM and WD floppy controller chip are socketed in my unit. There > were no visible signs of life on the WD control pins. Dumped the EPROM > and verified its contents (they were good). Since the WD controller was > socketed and I had a spare, I swapped it out. No joy there. > > At this point, lacking any other diagnostic information I decided to > monitor the CPU's Address and Data lines to see if I could work out what > it was trying and failing to do at powerup. Thanks to a new 40-pin DIP > clip (thanks again, Ian!) it was pretty easy to connect up my logic > analyzer (a Tek 1241 for those curious) and it pretty quickly became > clear that while the CPU was running, it wasn't functioning properly at > all. No matter how I looked at the address & data I couldn't work how > it could possibly be running a valid program. Data matched up to the > addresses being read (for addresses within the EPROM's address range > anyway) but the ordering of the addresses did not seem to correspond to > a running program. > > I desoldered the 6502 and stuck it in a working Apple II, and sure > enough the Apple would not run with the 1581's CPU. I installed a > replacement 6502 in the 1581 and I'm happy to report that it now works > properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a faulty > CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). > > - Josh Altough it wasn't an 6502 I had this with an old East German Z80 CPU (U880) too, it was active in some way but wasn't running any correct program anymore ... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 13:22:45 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:22:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 assemblers - Re: PDP-8 Unix In-Reply-To: <4F4017F2.9030601@telegraphics.com.au> References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> <4F4017F2.9030601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > FWIW, my PDP-8 (PAL-III compatible) cross-assembler is here: > http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/dpa/trunk Hi, Toby, I tried to build this on my Ubuntu 11.04 laptop and it did not go well. I installed flex 2.5.35, and bison 2.4.1, and I'm using gcc 4.5.2 (all installed from packages). Here's what I'm getting... $ make cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o main.o main.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o str.o str.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o error.o error.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o assign.o assign.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o symtab.o symtab.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o object.o object.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o gpl.o gpl.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o list.o list.c bison -y -d pdp8/parser.y mv y.tab.c pdp8/parser.tab.c mv y.tab.h pdp8/parser.tab.h flex -t pdp8/lexer.l > pdp8/lexer.c cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o pdp8/lexer.o pdp8/lexer.c :1180:17: warning: ?yyunput? defined but not used :1221:16: warning: ?input? defined but not used cc -O2 -W -Wall -I. -c -o pdp8/parser.tab.o pdp8/parser.tab.c pdp8/parser.y:25:20: error: ?TOK_SYM? undeclared here (not in a function) y.tab.c: In function ?yyparse?: y.tab.c:1339:7: warning: implicit declaration of function ?yylex? make: *** [pdp8/parser.tab.o] Error 1 rm pdp8/lexer.c I've been building programs from source on UNIX for a long time, but I never really got a handle on how to debug problems in lex/yacc files. Any suggestions? The README mentions several environments where it was successfully built and tested. Could this be a tool-chain version problem? I see your pointer to getting 'flex' points to a presently-non-existent page on the gnu.org website (the current page is on the FSF wiki at http://directory.fsf.org/wiki/Flex), so it makes me wonder if there haven't been "improvements" in flex that are not backwards compatible with older sources. Thanks for any tips. I'd love to get a working cross-assembler environment going. -ethan From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Feb 20 13:25:34 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:25:34 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> References: <4F33A56D.4040702@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20120220192534.GB33376@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2012-02-09 02:26, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > >On 02/08/2012 08:18 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > >>> On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 7:31 PM, allison wrote: > >>> > >>>>> > >>>>> There is no SCSI support in VMS at all. > >>>>> > >>> > >>> What was the KZQSA for? I got one and thought I had scored a qbus scsi > >>> adapter and quickly determined it was pretty much useless. What I > >>> never understood for sure was if it lacked hardware documentation and > >>> drivers and was not supported for general SCSI use or if it was > >>> broken/crippled in some way so that it couldn't be used for general > >>> SCSI. > > That's a driver issue and was some sort of "business decision". > >(means "got screwed up by suits for no good reason") > > > > And it is an MSCP controller, is it not? > > As far as I can remember, no. That was the point. It is a SCSI > controller, not an MSCP controller. > > By the way, yes, there is plenty of SCSI support in VMS. All of the more > modern VAXstations and whatnot have only native SCSI, and no MSCP or > similar. > > Johnny > > -- Jonny I have had a very similar problem on my experimental KA630 uVAXII with the Emulex UC07/08 Controllers. I've tried to connect some IBM 4GB Disk since they where quiet. That hasn't worked at all. The Emulex Firmware was happy, but neighter the RT11 (with an 11/53 CPU) nor the VAX could access the two logical disks I've created on that drive. Must have something todo with the emulex firmware that I have on that controller. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Feb 20 13:27:51 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:27:51 +0000 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FCAFA@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Nigel Williams Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 8:35 PM > If the mainframe products of IBM and Unisys [*] disappeared tomorrow, > the idea of mainframe (as we collectively know them) would fade too. > [*] I expect there are other manufacturers, I am using IBM and Unisys > as just two examples. As it happens, I just did the research for a timeline of mainframe computer systems from 1950 to 2011. IBM and Unisys are the only US mainframe manufacturers left. The field has shrunk continuously since the days of "IBM and the Seven Dwarfs" => "IBM and the BUNCH", including the SDS/Xerox Sigma line for completeness' sake. But looking at the class of computing--and it is, IMAO, a valid trait in defining "mainframe--only IBM and Unisys are left. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Feb 20 13:30:35 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:30:35 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/02/12 1:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 20 February 2012 06:39, wrote: >> Zitat von David Griffith: >> >> >>> This reminds me of the depressing trend of a mostly-converged CPU >>> monoculture. Just about everything is x86/amd64 with the exception of >>> tablets and phones which often use ARM. What became of MIPS? >> >> >> Don't write off MIPS that fast. A lot of new embedded Designs are MIPS >> based, >> a lot of research (china!) goes into the MIPS architecture. > > It's more than just research. > > China has the Godson and Longson chips, which are MIPS. There are > entire machines using them - such as most of the ~?80 "netbooks" > running WinCE that you can get, or Richard Stallman's all-free laptop. > > In the higher end, there are the TileEra 32-core and 64-core CPUs. Tilera* http://www.tilera.com/products/processors What's the status of Sun's CoolThreads/Niagara? Fujitsu? http://www.fujitsu.com/global/services/computing/server/sparcenterprise/technology/performance/processor3.html What happened to Transmeta's technology? And is XMOS going anywhere? http://www.xmos.com/technology/architecture http://www.xmos.com/technology/xcore --Toby > > MIPS is undergoing a bit of resurgence. > > Meanwhile, ARM is doing great as well - the high-end ARMs are *very* > performance-competitive with low-power-draw x86 parts such as Atom or > Via Eden. There's a *lot* of interest in ARM at the moment, especially > things like Raspberry Pi. > From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Feb 20 13:31:39 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:31:39 +0000 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FCB0E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Jim Brain Sent: Sunday, February 19, 2012 9:02 PM > referring to Unisys' machines as mainframes. I'll concede the point, > but I think one would be hard pressed to find many in IT that even know > about Unisys' big-iron solutions. Most people do know them in relation > to their Tandem machines. Whose Tandem machines??? Compaq bought Tandem Computers, which was then part of the HP/Compaq merger. HP still sells Non-Stop systems based on the Tandem system architecture. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Feb 20 13:40:09 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 14:40:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 assemblers - Re: PDP-8 Unix In-Reply-To: References: <201202070551.q175pZd0007834@floodgap.com> <4F31C3C9.8000206@verizon.net> <4F4017F2.9030601@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F42A199.4050001@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/02/12 2:22 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Feb 18, 2012 at 4:28 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> FWIW, my PDP-8 (PAL-III compatible) cross-assembler is here: >> http://telegraphics.com.au/svn/dpa/trunk > > Hi, Toby, > > I tried to build this on my Ubuntu 11.04 laptop and it did not go well. > > I installed flex 2.5.35, and bison 2.4.1, and I'm using gcc 4.5.2 (all > installed from packages). Here's what I'm getting... > > $ make > ... > pdp8/parser.y:25:20: error: ?TOK_SYM? undeclared here (not in a function) Thanks... > y.tab.c: In function ?yyparse?: > y.tab.c:1339:7: warning: implicit declaration of function ?yylex? > make: *** [pdp8/parser.tab.o] Error 1 > rm pdp8/lexer.c > > > I've been building programs from source on UNIX for a long time, but I > never really got a handle on how to debug problems in lex/yacc files. > > Any suggestions? The README mentions several environments where it > was successfully built and tested. ... Yes, I didn't realise it had a problem. I'm sure this version has built for me (but I don't use Ubuntu). I'll get back to you. --Toby > > -ethan > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 20 14:22:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:22:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a "workstation"? In-Reply-To: <4F42317C.3080806@gmail.com> References: , <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net>, <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> <4F42317C.3080806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120220121017.Y67764@shell.lmi.net> > SGI) as "deskside workstations". And rightly so, I would say: they're > specifically designed for workstation use. OK, WHAT IS A "WORKSTATION"? One day, one of our newer "fresh out of UC" (SCHEME) instructors came running into the CIS lab (50 PCs, 6 Macs) shouting, "We're getting SUN COMPUTERS! We're getting SUN COMPUTERS!" It turned out that she had just gotten word that there were three "Multimedia Workstations" for us on the loading dock! A week later, two of them arrived (an administrator had snagged one because it was shinier than what they had, although their old stuff would always disappear rather than end up with us) Each one was in a three foot by four foot by one foot box. "Some assembly required" Yep. A "Multimedia Workstation" was a shiny computer desk on wheels. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Feb 20 14:27:04 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:27:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a "workstation"? In-Reply-To: <20120220121017.Y67764@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Feb 20, 12 12:22:09 pm" Message-ID: <201202202027.q1KKR4ZJ9502802@floodgap.com> > > SGI) as "deskside workstations". And rightly so, I would say: they're > > specifically designed for workstation use. > > OK, > > WHAT IS A "WORKSTATION"? I dunno. I'd claim the true workstation is dead. Probably the last was the HP C8000. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to. ------- From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 14:32:42 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:32:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > What happened to Transmeta's technology? Didn't sell well, company dead (last I heard). Market segment taken over by intel Atom line. > And is XMOS going anywhere? > http://www.xmos.com/technology/architecture > http://www.xmos.com/technology/xcore I'm very interested to learn if this or GreenArrays will take off, but I suspect that unless they come up with use cases where this sort of architecture is a must have, people will just keep on buying commodity x86_64 boxes... Alexey From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Feb 20 14:50:07 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 12:50:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:32:42 +0000 (UTC) > From: Alexey Toptygin > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture > > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > >> What happened to Transmeta's technology? > > Didn't sell well, company dead (last I heard). Market segment taken over by > intel Atom line. > >> And is XMOS going anywhere? >> http://www.xmos.com/technology/architecture >> http://www.xmos.com/technology/xcore > > I'm very interested to learn if this or GreenArrays will take off, but I > suspect that unless they come up with use cases where this sort of > architecture is a must have, people will just keep on buying commodity x86_64 > boxes... > > Alexey > I dont think XMOS CPUs are in any way targeted at general purpose computing, more at the FPGA/DSP/real time embedded control space... Peter Wallace From fraveydank at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 15:01:50 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:01:50 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4EE30A1E-AEB3-4BFA-8B2B-6590C1EA17B0@gmail.com> On Feb 20, 2012, at 3:32 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > >> What happened to Transmeta's technology? > > Didn't sell well, company dead (last I heard). Market segment taken over by intel Atom line. > >> And is XMOS going anywhere? >> http://www.xmos.com/technology/architecture >> http://www.xmos.com/technology/xcore > > I'm very interested to learn if this or GreenArrays will take off, but I suspect that unless they come up with use cases where this sort of architecture is a must have, people will just keep on buying commodity x86_64 boxes... Well, they're both definitely targeted to embedded development (in the case of XMOS and Tilera, high-performance embedded). My company was certainly looking at Tilera for some network intelligence stuff, though I don't know if it really went anywhere. In this case, Tilera would supplant some heavy-duty x86 iron if it worked out, but we only used x86 to begin with because we wanted a more massively-deployable target than our previous Cavium project (which is, interestingly enough, based on MIPS). To make it run nice at 10Gbps on Linux consumer hardware, you have to do pretty massive overkill compared to something really meant to push lots of data through. GreenArrays is interesting, and I hope it works (because anything Chuck Moore does is intrinsically fascinating), but I'm having a hard time envisioning what I'd put it in. I know at least Dave McGuire has a GA dev board; is it as fun as it looks? - Dave From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 15:07:25 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:07:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > I dont think XMOS CPUs are in any way targeted at general purpose computing, > more at the FPGA/DSP/real time embedded control space... If you just need DSP/embedded control, then why bother with the transputer-like features? Those are what make it distinct from other, more established DSP products that already have market share. That means they need to come up with some use case where low latecy, high bandwidth core-to-core IO is a requirement. Are there any? Alexey From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 14:41:08 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:41:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: <4F3F001B.2000902@decodesystems.com> from "Dan Veeneman" at Feb 17, 12 08:34:19 pm Message-ID: > > Hello, > > First, thanks to Jay West et al for bringing the list back to life. > > I'm looking for a source for the data cable that connects a Commodore > PET, CBM 8032 to a Commodore 4040 dual disk drive. The cable has an > IEEE-488 connector on one end and a female PCB connector on the other. > > Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks! I assume the pun ('leads') is unintentional :-) I needed such a able about 190years ago, and I couldn't; find oen anywhere (I suspect they do turn up on E-bay). I ended up making an adaptor with a 12*2 0.156" pitch edge connector at one and and a 24 pin microribbon connector at the other. It was only a couple of inches long, so normal ribbon cable worked fine. In fact the hardest part was making the jckposts for the microribbon connector, the right ones seem to be unobtainable over here, so I had to machnin them myself. And then plug a noraml HPIB cable into that (those I assume you have plenty of...) At least the Commodore cable is just a cable. The disk interface 'cable' that I'm sort-of looking for is the one from an HP9830 to an HP11305 controller. I have the 2 units, but the cable has a significant amount of electronics (20 ICs or so) at each end.... Unfortunately, due I susepct in aprt of an idiot who's been writing articles extolling the virtues of the HP9800s andexplaining how to fix broken ones, the price of such machines has skyrocketed recently, the point where I know I'll not be able to afford them. If I ever meet that idiot.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 14:43:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:43:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: <4F401285.2050002@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 18, 12 10:05:09 pm Message-ID: > > A few comments... > > > > 1) I can find nothing to suggest that this has anythign to do with the > > UK. The televisoin company is not a UK one (AFAIK), and while is at least > > one small village in England called Melbourne, I cna't beleive it had > > much of a hacker./cracker community. > > They are based in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia. They must mean > Melbourne, Australia. Sore, I had guessed that. In general 'Melbourne' means the one in Australia, just as 'London' would man the one in England (there are others in the World). I added the comment in case somebody said 'Well, it could be in England, there's a village called Melbourne there'. My original quesiton remains. Is three any eeason to think this production has anythign to do with England? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 14:48:57 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:48:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: IC Manufacturer Logo Listing? In-Reply-To: <4F4184B1.6090401@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Feb 19, 12 05:24:33 pm Message-ID: > Others I'm having issues as it appears manufacturer's have used the same > number various times; often times locating on the web is a problem even > finding the number... > > Major question is : 1) Is there a list of somewhere that I can use to > identify the chip manufacturer's logo? Some of these chips are from the > 70's. " I haev foudn that entring the number of an unknown IC into datasheetarchive (http://www.datasheetarchive.com/) will often fidnm a datasheet if it's not a custom part. Not always (I've foudn a few ICs that aren't there). but it's certainly worth a try, and they do include a lot of older devices. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 15:17:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:17:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Debugging CRT monitors (Philips CM8833 Mk2 / Acorn AKF17) In-Reply-To: <4F428146.3050800@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 20, 12 05:22:14 pm Message-ID: > > On 06/02/12 19:01, Tony Duell wrote: > > Is that _all_ you hurled at him? I would have thought a medium-sized > > mains transformer would be a suitable missile here :-). Even more so if > > it has exposed connections and is plugged in at the time... > > He was extremely lucky. And I haven't seen him since :) Right :-) > > > > Take the keyboard apart, clean the membeane pads and the LED leads with a > > Q-tip and propan-2-ol. For obvisou reasons don't try to solder to the > > membrane sheet... > > Well that's a given. The melting point of solder is, after all, much > higher than that of plastic... I would love to see you melt PTFE with a noraml soldering iron :-) In other words, it depends on the plastic. But the melting point of keyboarf membrane sheets, at least all the ones I've seen, is much lower than that of normal soft solder. > > And surely you know how to test LEDs... (analogue ohmmeter, some DMM > > diode test ranges, battery and resistor, etc) > > ... Peak Atlas DCA05 Semiconductor Analyser? :) > (As in, the little blue box which IDs the pinout and basic parameters of > transistors, diodes, FETs and so on) I've seen it, I don't have one. The doucmentauton is IMHO inadequate for such a complex device. If I need to know more aobut a transistor/diode than a simple multimeter test will tell me, then I fire up the Tekky 575... > > The multimeter works too, but only just -- the DCA will drive the LED at > a decent brightness, the DMM requires that the bench light be turned off > in order to see the LED... Right... I use an analogue meter for this. On the Ohms*1 range it'll light every LED I've tried. However, even if the DMM doesn't pass enpugh current to get a decent glwoe from the ELD, it will display its forware votlage drop (I assume you have a 3+3/4 digit meter). And that will pick up open-circuit LEDs. > > >> One of the many alternative uses for a roll of 'rainbow' IDC cable :) > > > > I often use an offcut of stripboard or a DIL socket/IC for this.... > > I guess you meant "to ID the pin spacing" -- I meant "to work around the > issue of mismatched pin spacing". Ah, OK... > I've got a small ball-head hobby vice for some of that, a Panavise with > PCB holder, and the obligatory set of Helping Hands. The Panavise gets > the most use. I've never needed one (or the 'helping hands' which I think I haev somewhere, but haven't use since the day I was given them). I have got quite good at holding a PCB between middle and 3rd fingers of my left hand, using the little finge to suppor the component, thumb and index finger to feed i nthe soder while my right hand holds the soldering iron... > > (I also have a set of hand-crimpers for IDC plugs... somewhere...) Oh, I know where mine are, in the same toolbox as the modualr plug crimp tool. The latter gets quite a bit of use, but I prefer to crimp ICD connectors in the vice. > >>> Indeed... There are some phono plubs with a sliding sleeve on the > >>> outside so that the ground makes first, but they are not common... > >> > >> I was wondering if anyone had done that... > > > > I can't rememebr where I saw them, but it was one of the well-known > > connector manufacturers who made them. > > Sounds like something Neutrik would do. That's who I was going to say, but I didn't have any way of checking... > I have an LM386-based bench amplifier for that. Even has a built in > speaker, and a volume control labelled from 0 to 11 :) I think an ECL86 would be preferable for that application. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 14:54:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:54:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <201202200229.q1K2TPlT10092764@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser" at Feb 19, 12 06:29:25 pm Message-ID: > > properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a faulty > > CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). > > Wow, that's bizarre. 6502s don't fail very often. I can't remember if I'ev ever had to replace a 6502, but I've certainly had other CPUs fail. Z80, 8085, 6800, 8035 (fortunately ROMless), some 6803-seires microcontrolelr (again ROMless), and so on. My expeirence, as I've said beore is that while LSI ICs (including microprocessors) are more reliable than the same circuit built from TTL or discretes, the LSI chips are less reliable than idividualt TTL ICs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 14:56:29 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219185233.E42771@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 19, 12 06:53:18 pm Message-ID: > Is there ANY precedent of IBM spinning anything??!? Err, Disks, tape reels, golfball-type printheads.... [Could not resist] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 14:28:32 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:28:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who wants a nice monitor =?UTF-8?Q?=28UK=29=3F?= In-Reply-To: <4e00e4e4ffc6d5fc30500d831be0b43c@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at Feb 9, 12 11:09:15 am Message-ID: > But IIRC Tnix is simply AT&T Unix version 7 with bits taken out and > other bits added on, so fsck should be the standard Unix v7 fsck for the > PDP-11. I suppose that could be found elsewhere? Or would it have been > modified to suit Tek's hardware? If, as others have said, fsck was a standalone program on this machine, it must have been modified for the hardware. The Tektronix disk controlelr is nothing like anything DEC used AFAIK. IIRC it's actually the standard Micropolis controller (which mounts on the drive itself) cnnectred to a Tektronix bus interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 20 15:29:51 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:29:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: What is a "workstation"? In-Reply-To: <20120220121017.Y67764@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 20, 12 12:22:09 pm Message-ID: > > > SGI) as "deskside workstations". And rightly so, I would say: they're > > specifically designed for workstation use. > > OK, > > WHAT IS A "WORKSTATION"? One old defintion was the '3M' one : Megapixel, Megabyte, MIPS. That is a personal system with a built-in bitmapped display with 1 million pixels ; 1 megabyte of memory and 1 (VAX) MIPS of CPU performace. I did say it was an old definition :-) Incidentally, one of the first machiens to be conidered to be a workstation, the PERQ, didn't quite meet that definition. The display 12 768*1024 pixels. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 20 15:37:07 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:37:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >>> A few comments... >>> >>> 1) I can find nothing to suggest that this has anythign to do with the >>> UK. The televisoin company is not a UK one (AFAIK), and while is at least >>> one small village in England called Melbourne, I cna't beleive it had >>> much of a hacker./cracker community. >> >> They are based in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia. They must mean >> Melbourne, Australia. > > Sore, I had guessed that. In general 'Melbourne' means the one in > Australia, just as 'London' would man the one in England (there are > others in the World). I added the comment in case somebody said > 'Well, it could be in England, there's a village called Melbourne there'. > > My original quesiton remains. Is three any eeason to think this > production has anythign to do with England? Just for fun, it could be the Melbourne in Florida. I'm in Bakersfield. There's a few of those scattered about. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Feb 20 15:40:51 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:40:51 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/02/12 4:07 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> I dont think XMOS CPUs are in any way targeted at general purpose >> computing, more at the FPGA/DSP/real time embedded control space... > > If you just need DSP/embedded control, then why bother with the > transputer-like features? Those are what make it distinct from other, > more established DSP products that already have market share. That means > they need to come up with some use case where low latecy, high bandwidth > core-to-core IO is a requirement. Are there any? What if you could map Erlang processes to it? There are many industrial and general purpose Erlang programs now. It thrives on low-latency message passing between as many cores as possible. --Toby > > Alexey > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 15:43:43 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 13:43:43 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FCB0E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: , <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com>, <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FCB0E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F424E0F.20791.F91A24@cclist.sydex.com> The discussion is sort of ridiculous. Are we talking about a term of art called "mainframe" or a marketing term? Used to be that "mainframe", loosely defined, was "that physically distinct part of a computer system containing the CPU and memory, but exclusive of the peripherals and external I/O controllers". When systems were bunches of boxes cabled together, referring to the CPU box as the "mainframe" was a pretty useful item. "Mini" was a term of marketing. Is a PB250 or LGP30 or 1130 a minicomputer? If not, why not? Small cars and short skirts of the 60s defined the term. "Micro" isn't even that explicit. True, there were processors the majority of whose computational function was integrated on a single chip, but there were also other systems referred to as "microcomputers" that required a large number of support chips. Has anyone forgotten "midicomputers"? A short skirt, but not as short as a miniskirt... Then we have attempts at confusing prospective customers. I believe that Intel referred to the 432 as a "Micro Mainframe", whatever that means. Televideo marketed a desktop 80186 box as a "Personal Mini". I say that we let the publicity and marketing types have their pie and refer to the actual construction and operating characteristics of the hardware we're talking about. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Mon Feb 20 15:48:20 2012 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:48:20 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F42BFA4.3060303@jbrain.com> On 2/20/2012 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I needed such a able about 190years ago, and I couldn't; find oen > anywhere (I suspect they do turn up on E-bay). I ended up making an > adaptor with a 12*2 0.156" pitch edge connector at one and and a 24 pin > microribbon connector at the other. It was only a couple of inches long, > so normal ribbon cable worked fine. In fact the hardest part was making > the jckposts for the microribbon connector, the right ones seem to be > unobtainable over here, so I had to machnin them myself. Might I borrow a variant of that design? I have 12/24 edge connectors here, and I have proper Centronics 24 pin IEEE connectors. I was thinking a little PCB with the edge connector on one side and the IEEE socket on the other. > At least the Commodore cable is just a cable. The disk interface 'cable' > that I'm sort-of looking for is the one from an HP9830 to an HP11305 > controller. I have the 2 units, but the cable has a significant amount of > electronics (20 ICs or so) at each end.... Unfortunately, due I susepct > in aprt of an idiot who's been writing articles extolling the virtues of > the HP9800s andexplaining how to fix broken ones, the price of such > machines has skyrocketed recently, the point where I know I'll not be > able to afford them. If I ever meet that idiot.... :-) From spc at conman.org Mon Feb 20 16:16:45 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:16:45 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > On 20 Feb 2012 at 10:43, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid way, such that > > > any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in question to > > > qualify as a "mainframe"? > > > > > > > Fill in the first question mark with an "R". Fill the middle one with > > an "A". Fill the last one with a "S". > > If you're referencing "Reliability, Availability and Serviceability", > I think that's not specific enough. ILLIAC IV was certainly a > mainframe and had none of those. Back in the late 90s I worked at a company that had a Stratus. If you rebooted the machine, within twenty minutes, the Status company would call up asking if there were any issues we were experiencing and should a technician be sent out? There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and had ordered itself a replacement. So perhaps it is the service level that makes a mainframe a mainframe. -spc (The software the we wrote for the Stratus also ran under Windows, but cost significanly more ... ) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 20 16:40:33 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 22:40:33 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home In-Reply-To: References: <014b01ccef5d$c74cd500$55e67f00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01bb01ccf020$a9be9140$fd3bb3c0$@ntlworld.com> Yours was the first reply, so it is yours if you want to collect. Would you want to collect daytime, evening or weekend? I can be around Thursday, probably the afternoon, certainly the evening, and working from home Friday. I can also be around at the weekend. I live in Cheadle Hulme. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Sent: 20 February 2012 01:03 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > Very interested, work in Stockport > > Dave Wade G4UGM > Illegitimate Non Carborundum > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 19 February 2012 23:26 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > > > > I have a VAXstation 3100 that I would like to pass on. I acquired it > > recently and I have successfully booted it into VMS over the network. > > It does not have a disk. > > > > I am based in Stockport, UK and would prefer collection in person. > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 16:49:34 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 22:49:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > On 20/02/12 4:07 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> If you just need DSP/embedded control, then why bother with the >> transputer-like features? Those are what make it distinct from other, >> more established DSP products that already have market share. That means >> they need to come up with some use case where low latecy, high bandwidth >> core-to-core IO is a requirement. Are there any? > > What if you could map Erlang processes to it? There are many industrial and > general purpose Erlang programs now. It thrives on low-latency message > passing between as many cores as possible. Sure, you can do that. And GreenArrays chips can run Forth really well. But, given XCore hardware and x86_64 hardware that costs the same, can XCore outperform x86_64 running that same Erlang code? And, even more importantly, are there compute taks that can't be done quickly on x86_64 in any language, but can be done quickly on XCore? Alexey From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 20 17:00:03 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 15:00:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F424E0F.20791.F91A24@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com>, <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FCB0E@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> <4F424E0F.20791.F91A24@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120220145603.E67764@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > "Micro" isn't even that explicit. True, there were processors the > majority of whose computational function was integrated on a single > chip, but there were also other systems referred to as > "microcomputers" that required a large number of support chips. > Has anyone forgotten "midicomputers"? A short skirt, but not as > short as a miniskirt... Easy to forget "midi" when memories of minis and micro-minis are plentiful, memorable, and sometimes quite explicit. I will gladly find a way to provide a 5100 to anybody who can transport me back half a century! From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 17:24:12 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 23:24:12 -0000 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <8389D6B69B9F4D7B8FBB0CE09CFBAC1E@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean Conner > Sent: 20 February 2012 22:17 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last > mainframe) > > > It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > On 20 Feb 2012 at 10:43, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > > Can anyone fill in the ??? is an absolute and lucid > way, such that > > > > any box, regardless of appearance must pass the test in > question to > > > > qualify as a "mainframe"? > > > > > > > > > > Fill in the first question mark with an "R". Fill the > middle one with > > > an "A". Fill the last one with a "S". > > > > If you're referencing "Reliability, Availability and > Serviceability", > > I think that's not specific enough. ILLIAC IV was certainly a > > mainframe and had none of those. > At Newcastle there were lots of problems with their IBM 370 I think it was eventually tracked down to some circuits with faulty bonding of the copper to the pcbs in some units. Recently when we had an IBM MP3000 which some would call a mainframe (It runs 370/xa and ESA code) it had a lower availability that our Windows servers. To me a Mainframe was largely about the i/o, so perhaps eparate, dedicated , programmable, identifiable i/o processor? I am note sure if the z9 has these, or if like the MP3000 the i/o processors are "emulated" by a service processor... > Back in the late 90s I worked at a company that had a > Stratus. If you > rebooted the machine, within twenty minutes, the Status > company would call > up asking if there were any issues we were experiencing and should a > technician be sent out? > > There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing > up at the > office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units > was marginal and > had ordered itself a replacement. > > So perhaps it is the service level that makes a mainframe a > mainframe. > > -spc (The software the we wrote for the Stratus also ran > under Windows, > but cost significanly more ... ) > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 17:27:07 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 23:27:07 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home In-Reply-To: <01bb01ccf020$a9be9140$fd3bb3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 20 February 2012 22:41 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > Yours was the first reply, so it is yours if you want to > collect. Would you > want to collect daytime, evening or weekend? > Thanks very much. Friday sounds best, do you have some contact details? Perhaps I can pop out in my lunch break... > I can be around Thursday, probably the afternoon, certainly > the evening, and > working from home Friday. I can also be around at the > weekend. I live in > Cheadle Hulme. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > > Sent: 20 February 2012 01:03 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > > Very interested, work in Stockport > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimate Non Carborundum > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 19 February 2012 23:26 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > > > > > > > I have a VAXstation 3100 that I would like to pass on. I > acquired it > > > recently and I have successfully booted it into VMS over > the network. > > > It does not have a disk. > > > > > > I am based in Stockport, UK and would prefer collection in person. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 20 17:57:44 2012 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 23:57:44 -0000 Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home In-Reply-To: <01bb01ccf020$a9be9140$fd3bb3c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <014b01ccef5d$c74cd500$55e67f00$@ntlworld.com> <01bb01ccf020$a9be9140$fd3bb3c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01c001ccf02b$71afac20$550f0460$@ntlworld.com> Sorry for the spam, did not spot that this was going out to the list. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 20 February 2012 22:41 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > Yours was the first reply, so it is yours if you want to collect. Would you > want to collect daytime, evening or weekend? > > I can be around Thursday, probably the afternoon, certainly the evening, and > working from home Friday. I can also be around at the weekend. I live in > Cheadle Hulme. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > > Sent: 20 February 2012 01:03 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > > Very interested, work in Stockport > > > > Dave Wade G4UGM > > Illegitimate Non Carborundum > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > > Sent: 19 February 2012 23:26 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: VAXstation 3100 Free To A Good Home > > > > > > > > > I have a VAXstation 3100 that I would like to pass on. I acquired it > > > recently and I have successfully booted it into VMS over the network. > > > It does not have a disk. > > > > > > I am based in Stockport, UK and would prefer collection in person. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 20 18:09:13 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:09:13 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F42E0A9.8090300@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're referencing "Reliability, Availability and Serviceability", > I think that's not specific enough. ILLIAC IV was certainly a > mainframe and had none of those. ILLIAC IV is perhaps better classed as a supercomputer. Though that probably starts another argument about how to distinguish mainframes from supercomputers. There were certainly a lot of supercomputers that didn't have RAS as defined above. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 20 18:39:48 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:39:48 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F42E0A9.8090300@brouhaha.com> References: , <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F42E0A9.8090300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F427754.22115.19A4DC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2012 at 16:09, Eric Smith wrote: > There were certainly a lot of supercomputers that didn't have RAS as > defined above. Certainly on serviceability. MTTR simetimes much longer than the usual mainframe of the day (e.g. Cray "bubbles", ETA 10...). Not nearly as reliable, certainly. Accessible? Certainly no better than the average mainframe. Even though I spent a fair amount of my professional life on supercomputers, I haven't the faintest idea of how to define them in non-marketing terms. Evevn less so on "minisupercomputers". Were there any "midisupercomputers"? (Feels like we're getting into "hemidemisemiquaver" territory...) --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 20 18:53:44 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:53:44 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <8389D6B69B9F4D7B8FBB0CE09CFBAC1E@EMACHINE> References: <8389D6B69B9F4D7B8FBB0CE09CFBAC1E@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <4F42EB18.3070002@neurotica.com> On 02/20/2012 06:24 PM, Dave wrote: >> -----Original Message----- > At Newcastle there were lots of problems with their IBM 370 I think it was > eventually tracked down to some circuits with faulty bonding of the copper > to the pcbs in some units. Recently when we had an IBM MP3000 which some > would call a mainframe (It runs 370/xa and ESA code) it had a lower > availability that our Windows servers. That's scary. I have an MP3000 here that I'm trying to get running. Do you know a bunch about them? I'd definitely call it a mainframe; it uses the same processor chipset as an S/390 G5. (for others reading this, ZERO relation to PowerPC G5) > To me a Mainframe was largely about the i/o, so perhaps eparate, dedicated , > programmable, identifiable i/o processor? I am note sure if the z9 has > these, or if like the MP3000 the i/o processors are "emulated" by a service > processor... The z9 has massive, massive I/O capacity that is most definitely NOT emulated. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Feb 20 18:55:58 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 16:55:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 22:49:34 +0000 (UTC) > From: Alexey Toptygin > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture > > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 20/02/12 4:07 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> If you just need DSP/embedded control, then why bother with the >>> transputer-like features? Those are what make it distinct from other, >>> more established DSP products that already have market share. That means >>> they need to come up with some use case where low latecy, high bandwidth >>> core-to-core IO is a requirement. Are there any? >> >> What if you could map Erlang processes to it? There are many industrial and >> general purpose Erlang programs now. It thrives on low-latency message >> passing between as many cores as possible. > > Sure, you can do that. And GreenArrays chips can run Forth really well. But, > given XCore hardware and x86_64 hardware that costs the same, can XCore > outperform x86_64 running that same Erlang code? > > And, even more importantly, are there compute taks that can't be done quickly > on x86_64 in any language, but can be done quickly on XCore? > > Alexey > Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks X86 is simply not a player here (too hot, and too slow to switch tasks) Peter Wallace From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 20 19:08:03 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:08:03 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> On 02/20/2012 03:32 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> What happened to Transmeta's technology? > > Didn't sell well, company dead (last I heard). Market segment taken over > by intel Atom line. > >> And is XMOS going anywhere? >> http://www.xmos.com/technology/architecture >> http://www.xmos.com/technology/xcore > > I'm very interested to learn if this or GreenArrays will take off, but I > suspect that unless they come up with use cases where this sort of > architecture is a must have, people will just keep on buying commodity > x86_64 boxes... Their chips are primarily targeted at midrange embedded applications, where you can power hundreds of GA chips with what a single x86_64 CPU pulls. The XMOS chips have a similar target market. Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right now!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 20 19:13:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:13:25 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4EE30A1E-AEB3-4BFA-8B2B-6590C1EA17B0@gmail.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4EE30A1E-AEB3-4BFA-8B2B-6590C1EA17B0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F42EFB5.6030005@neurotica.com> On 02/20/2012 04:01 PM, David Riley wrote: > GreenArrays is interesting, and I hope it works (because anything > Chuck Moore does is intrinsically fascinating), but I'm having a hard > time envisioning what I'd put it in. I know at least Dave McGuire > has a GA dev board; is it as fun as it looks? I'm sad to report that I haven't even powered it up yet. I've recently gone from not having enough money to do anything to not having enough time to do anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 20 19:18:36 2012 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:18:36 -0000 Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s References: Message-ID: <007301ccf037$4a249240$36fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, February 20, 2012 9:37 PM Subject: Re: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>> A few comments... > >>> > >>> 1) I can find nothing to suggest that this has anythign to do with the > >>> UK. The televisoin company is not a UK one (AFAIK), and while is at least > >>> one small village in England called Melbourne, I cna't beleive it had > >>> much of a hacker./cracker community. > >> > >> They are based in Sydney and Melbourne, Australia. They must mean > >> Melbourne, Australia. > > > > Sore, I had guessed that. In general 'Melbourne' means the one in > > Australia, just as 'London' would man the one in England (there are > > others in the World). I added the comment in case somebody said > > 'Well, it could be in England, there's a village called Melbourne there'. > > > > My original quesiton remains. Is three any eeason to think this > > production has anythign to do with England? > > Just for fun, it could be the Melbourne in Florida. I'm in Bakersfield. > There's a few of those scattered about. > For further laughs, I live near Cambridge. The last time I searched for Cambridge online, I discovered that there is (atleast) one in Canada, and one in every US state! Since then I always write Cambridge, UK when referring to Cambridge to avoid any possible confusion. As far as the original topic goes, I received an email about this on another email list which points to an article here: http://www.gizmodo.com.au/2012/02/old-school-hacker-movie-set-in-melbourne-needs-your-help/ It seems highly likely that they mean Melbourne, Australia, due to the fact that they contacted John Ferlito, president of Linux Australia, asking for help and the fact that this article appears on an Australian website. I don't like this line in the article though "Because if you use Linux, chances are there's a long-forgotten Amiga 500 in your fridge.", as I would never ditch my Amiga's just for Linux and I also vaguely recall a discussion somewhere (not sure if it was on here or another group) about Linux on Amiga's about a year or so back. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 19:32:17 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:32:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 core that is 2+ times as fast? Alexey From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 19:34:35 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:34:35 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines > talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right > now!) OK, but why do your GSM modems need to be talking to 2+ interlinked cores rather than one core that is 2+ times as fast? What are you doing with them that makes controllling them with a single fast core impractical? Alexey From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 20 19:39:04 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 17:39:04 -0800 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F42F5B8.60800@brouhaha.com> Alexey Toptygin wrote: > And GreenArrays chips can run Forth really well. Only very small Forth programs, though you can run a different small Forth program on each core. I don't think a single one of my non-trivial Forth programs will run on it. Because each core has such a tiny memory, it has to be programmed similarly to a data flow architecture, though at a slightly coarser scale. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 20 19:52:17 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 20:52:17 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F42F8D1.9080904@neurotica.com> On 02/20/2012 08:34 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines >> talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right now!) > > OK, but why do your GSM modems need to be talking to 2+ interlinked > cores rather than one core that is 2+ times as fast? What are you doing > with them that makes controllling them with a single fast core impractical? Well I am in this case; I'm using an ARM7. The point you're missing here (said with respect) is the same point that took me a while to "get", in the context of the GA chips in particular. I spent a long time looking at the datasheets for the GA144, thinking about it in the context of an embedded application, and complaining to myself about the lack of on-chip peripherals like SPI and I2C controllers, UARTs, etc. Then it dawned on me: I had 144 very simple cores that are VERY cheap, less than fourteen cents apiece at the single-unit quantity price: implement a bit-banged SPI controller in one of those cores! Ordinarily I'd frown on such an approach, as I usually have better things for the processor to be doing than managing bit timings, but this chip, at $20/ea, has 144 cores...I can dedicate one (or ten!!) to creating SPI interfaces or being UARTs. It's "general purpose hardware" taken to a different level. In this case, it's not all about distributing "processes" across multiple processors, but "functionality", where some of those functionalities might be implemented in purpose-built, rather than general-purpose hardware on more traditional microcontroller designs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 20:00:01 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:00:01 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: > ?There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the > office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and > had ordered itself a replacement. Yes, the Stratus machine at the Milwaukee School of Engineering did that while I was there, but it was a processor board. Many Stratus sites have similar stories. Very nice machines, if a bit sluggish. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 20 20:02:17 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:02:17 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F42E0A9.8090300@brouhaha.com> References: <4F416ACD.26671.2BA16A1@cclist.sydex.com> <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <4F42E0A9.8090300@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > There were certainly a lot of supercomputers that didn't have RAS as defined > above. Early Crays and Cyber were anything but RAS. That is why they came with a little technician that lived inside the cabinets. -- Will From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Feb 20 20:06:47 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:06:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:32:17 +0000 (UTC) > From: Alexey Toptygin > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture > > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks > > Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low latency > coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low latency task. > Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 core that is 2+ > times as fast? > > Alexey > It all has to do with real time and latency. X86s (and their assosciated chipsets) have great throughput but dreadful latency (this is a common tradeoff) especially for hardware replacement type tasks. The XMOS chips have low latency (ns) and independent I/O available on multiple cores, the X86 cores share a (high latency/buffered) common data path As I said before, the XMOS chips are designed for multiple coupled tasks with (somewhat in FPGA space if the signal frequencies are not above perhaps a few 10 of MHz). It is designed to simulate hardware in software. The x86 cannot do this very well, so as I said simply does not play in the same space at all. Peter Wallace From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Feb 20 20:19:23 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:19:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > It all has to do with real time and latency. X86s (and their assosciated > chipsets) have great throughput but dreadful latency (this is a common > tradeoff) especially for hardware replacement type tasks. The XMOS chips have > low latency (ns) and independent I/O available on multiple cores, the X86 > cores share a (high latency/buffered) common data path > > As I said before, the XMOS chips are designed for multiple coupled tasks with > (somewhat in FPGA space if the signal frequencies are not above perhaps a few > 10 of MHz). It is designed to simulate hardware in software. The x86 cannot > do this very well, so as I said simply does not play in the same space at > all. So, if I undestand you correctly, the point of the XCore/GA style technology is to do in software what would be done in a more traditional design with FPGA/PAL/ASIC based circuits? So the advantage of XCore/GA is rapid prototyping and flexibility of implementation? Alexey From pcw at mesanet.com Mon Feb 20 20:46:57 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:46:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 02:19:23 +0000 (UTC) > From: Alexey Toptygin > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture > > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> It all has to do with real time and latency. X86s (and their assosciated >> chipsets) have great throughput but dreadful latency (this is a common >> tradeoff) especially for hardware replacement type tasks. The XMOS chips >> have low latency (ns) and independent I/O available on multiple cores, the >> X86 cores share a (high latency/buffered) common data path >> >> As I said before, the XMOS chips are designed for multiple coupled tasks >> with (somewhat in FPGA space if the signal frequencies are not above >> perhaps a few 10 of MHz). It is designed to simulate hardware in software. >> The x86 cannot do this very well, so as I said simply does not play in the >> same space at all. > > So, if I undestand you correctly, the point of the XCore/GA style technology > is to do in software what would be done in a more traditional design with > FPGA/PAL/ASIC based circuits? So the advantage of XCore/GA is rapid > prototyping and flexibility of implementation? > > Alexey > I just fits in the continuum of computing devices ranked by latency/parallism you might also choose a GA or XMOS device for ease of programming relative to a FPGA, I think most people would say that XMOS and GA devices are easier than FPGAs to program (or at least use more familiar tools) FPGAs,etc lowest latency greatest parallelism, core local I/O XMOS/GA medium latency medium parallelism, core local I/O DSPs medium/high latency, little/medium parallelism, shared I/O path GP CPUs high latency/ medium parallelism, shared I/O path Peter Wallace From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Feb 20 20:48:04 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 21:48:04 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F42F8D1.9080904@neurotica.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> <4F42F8D1.9080904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F4305E4.209@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/02/12 8:52 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/20/2012 08:34 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >>> Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines >>> talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right >>> now!) >> >> OK, but why do your GSM modems need to be talking to 2+ interlinked >> cores rather than one core that is 2+ times as fast? What are you doing >> with them that makes controllling them with a single fast core >> impractical? > ... > Then it dawned on me: I had 144 very simple cores that are VERY cheap, > less than fourteen cents apiece at the single-unit quantity price: > implement a bit-banged SPI controller in one of those cores! ... > > In this case, it's not all about distributing "processes" across > multiple processors, but "functionality", where some of those > functionalities might be implemented in purpose-built, rather than > general-purpose hardware on more traditional microcontroller designs. > That sounds like the Transputer model -- there was quite a diversity of devices accessible via the standard serial links: I/O, storage, graphics, networks, etc. --Toby > -Dave > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 20 20:56:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 18:56:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> > ?There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the > office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and > had ordered itself a replacement. But, can you program it to also handle all of the institutional paperwork and politics involved in such a purchase? Can it negotiate with college administrators? Is there a defenestration peripheral? From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 20 21:05:54 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:05:54 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F430A12.1020102@bitsavers.org> On 2/20/12 6:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the >> office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and >> had ordered itself a replacement. > > But, can you program it to also handle all of the institutional paperwork > and politics involved in such a purchase? yes, it's called a service contract. From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Feb 20 21:40:14 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 19:40:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1329795614.37340.YahooMailNeo@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> While not a 6502, 6809E chips fail on the Coco quite often. The cartridge connector is directly connected to the processor without buffering or protection of any kind. Removing a cartridge, or jostling the disk controller cartridge with the power on can short lines and kill the chip. Cloud9 sells a board that one can install with a 6809E or the Hitachi version of the 6809 (6309) to protect the processor. http://www.frontiernet.net/~mmarlette/Cloud-9/Hardware/Pro-TectorPlus.html I haven't bought one yet, because I bought 68B09E chips from Jameco for $5 each. I've only seen one Coco with a blown chip, and I got it that way. Al From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 20 21:43:33 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 22:43:33 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F4305E4.209@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> <4F42F8D1.9080904@neurotica.com> <4F4305E4.209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F4312E5.7010606@neurotica.com> On 02/20/2012 09:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines >>>> talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right >>>> now!) >>> >>> OK, but why do your GSM modems need to be talking to 2+ interlinked >>> cores rather than one core that is 2+ times as fast? What are you doing >>> with them that makes controllling them with a single fast core >>> impractical? > > ... >> Then it dawned on me: I had 144 very simple cores that are VERY cheap, >> less than fourteen cents apiece at the single-unit quantity price: >> implement a bit-banged SPI controller in one of those cores! ... >> >> In this case, it's not all about distributing "processes" across >> multiple processors, but "functionality", where some of those >> functionalities might be implemented in purpose-built, rather than >> general-purpose hardware on more traditional microcontroller designs. > > That sounds like the Transputer model -- there was quite a diversity of > devices accessible via the standard serial links: I/O, storage, > graphics, networks, etc. Well sorta, but in that model you'd bit-bang all of that stuff with (mostly) identical Transputers. That would never have been cost-effective back in those days. The cores in the GA144 (and related chips) are SUPER simple (Chuck Moore's specialty) and as such are very cheap. The 144-core die is tiny! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Feb 20 23:12:31 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 00:12:31 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable References: Message-ID: <93851BA077494A1FAC588F7BD3AC163E@vl420mt> ------ Original Message: Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 20:34:19 -0500 From: Dan Veeneman > Hello, > First, thanks to Jay West et al for bringing the list back to life. -- Ditto! -- >I'm looking for a source for the data cable that connects a Commodore PET, >CBM 8032 to a Commodore 4040 dual disk drive. The cable has an IEEE-488 >connector on one end and a female PCB connector on the other. > Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks! > Cheers, > Dan Toronto PET Users Group store: http://www.tpug.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=70 From spc at conman.org Mon Feb 20 23:47:30 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 00:47:30 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > >Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks > > Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low > latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low > latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 > core that is 2+ times as fast? Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away in a data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part I'm responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. Or how about this example: one core for background tasks (interrupt handlers, what have you) and one core for foreground tasks. -spc (Just tossing ideas out there ... ) From spc at conman.org Mon Feb 20 23:52:49 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 00:52:49 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20120221055248.GE1565@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines > >talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right > >now!) > > OK, but why do your GSM modems need to be talking to 2+ interlinked cores > rather than one core that is 2+ times as fast? What are you doing with > them that makes controllling them with a single fast core impractical? One core for handling traffic out, another one for handling traffic coming in. It makes the code easier to write. Handling traffic for both directions, without using threads, means you end up writing a cooperative multitasking system where you have to manage all the state information. It's not impossible, but it tends to turn the code inside out (as it's event driven) and (at least to me) harder to follow. If the system provides threads, then you still have overhead of task switching, so a single CPU running at 2X does not match two CPUs running at X. -spc (Has to deal with event driven code at work, and personally, I don't like it) From spc at conman.org Mon Feb 20 23:55:54 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 00:55:54 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120221055554.GF1565@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin once stated: > > ?There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the > > office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and > > had ordered itself a replacement. > > But, can you program it to also handle all of the institutional paperwork > and politics involved in such a purchase? I'm sure the paperwork that comes with buying (or more likely, leasing) a Stratus covers all that. > Can it negotiate with college administrators? Is there a defenestration > peripheral? -spc (I doubt it---no one likes to clean up after a computer defenestrated itself---the bits get *everywhere*!) From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Feb 21 00:04:33 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 06:04:33 +0000 (UTC) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: >> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> >>> Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks >> >> Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low >> latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low >> latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 >> core that is 2+ times as fast? > > Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC > system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away in a > data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a > properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part I'm > responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. > > Or how about this example: one core for background tasks (interrupt > handlers, what have you) and one core for foreground tasks. You are confusing XCore and SMP. They are very different - XCore cores do not share memory, but communicate using IO channels. Alexey From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 21 00:39:17 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 20 Feb 2012 23:39:17 -0700 Subject: SHOgraphics X/PEX terminals wanted Message-ID: Got one laying around? I'd really like a PEX terminal for my Computer Graphics Museum. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bqt at softjar.se Mon Feb 20 18:14:52 2012 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 01:14:52 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> On 2012-02-20 22:23, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > By the way, yes, there is plenty of SCSI support in VMS. All of the more >> > modern VAXstations and whatnot have only native SCSI, and no MSCP or >> > similar. >> > >> > Johnny >> > >> > -- > Jonny I have had a very similar problem on my experimental KA630 uVAXII > with the Emulex UC07/08 Controllers. I've tried to connect some IBM 4GB > Disk since they where quiet. That hasn't worked at all. The Emulex > Firmware was happy, but neighter the RT11 (with an 11/53 CPU) nor the > VAX could access the two logical disks I've created on that drive. > Must have something todo with the emulex firmware that I have on that > controller. Way too hard to figure out what the problem is with this information. Have you checked that the CSR really is correct, for instance? If the controller firmware itself sees the disks just fine, then the connection between the controller and the OS is one obvious point to look at. But there could be a bunch of issues. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 21 01:23:30 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:23:30 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Johnny Billquist : > On 2012-02-20 22:23, Holm Tiffe wrote: >> Johnny Billquist wrote: >> >>>> By the way, yes, there is plenty of SCSI support in VMS. All of the more >>>> modern VAXstations and whatnot have only native SCSI, and no MSCP or >>>> similar. >>>> >>>> Johnny >>>> >>>> -- >> Jonny I have had a very similar problem on my experimental KA630 uVAXII >> with the Emulex UC07/08 Controllers. I've tried to connect some IBM 4GB >> Disk since they where quiet. That hasn't worked at all. The Emulex >> Firmware was happy, but neighter the RT11 (with an 11/53 CPU) nor the >> VAX could access the two logical disks I've created on that drive. >> Must have something todo with the emulex firmware that I have on that >> controller. > > Way too hard to figure out what the problem is with this information. > Have you checked that the CSR really is correct, for instance? > > If the controller firmware itself sees the disks just fine, then the > connection between the controller and the OS is one obvious point to > look at. But there could be a bunch of issues. Just use a second drive for RT11. (GBytes for RT11???), so you don't have to partition the drives. Probably that's the problem... From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 21 03:49:07 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 10:49:07 +0100 Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: References: <4F3F001B.2000902@decodesystems.com> from "Dan Veeneman" at Feb 17, 12 08:34:19 pm Message-ID: <002f01ccf07e$11990bd0$34cb2370$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 20 februari 2012 21:41 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable > > > > > Hello, > > > > First, thanks to Jay West et al for bringing the list back to life. > > > > I'm looking for a source for the data cable that connects a Commodore > > PET, CBM 8032 to a Commodore 4040 dual disk drive. The cable has an > > IEEE-488 connector on one end and a female PCB connector on the other. > > > > Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks! > > I assume the pun ('leads') is unintentional :-) > > I needed such a able about 190years ago, and I couldn't; find oen anywhere (I > suspect they do turn up on E-bay). I ended up making an adaptor with a 12*2 > 0.156" pitch edge connector at one and and a 24 pin microribbon connector at > the other. It was only a couple of inches long, so normal ribbon cable worked > fine. In fact the hardest part was making the jckposts for the microribbon > connector, the right ones seem to be unobtainable over here, so I had to > machnin them myself. > > And then plug a noraml HPIB cable into that (those I assume you have plenty > of...) > > At least the Commodore cable is just a cable. The disk interface 'cable' > that I'm sort-of looking for is the one from an HP9830 to an HP11305 controller. > I have the 2 units, but the cable has a significant amount of electronics (20 ICs or > so) at each end.... Unfortunately, due I susepct in aprt of an idiot who's been > writing articles extolling the virtues of the HP9800s andexplaining how to fix > broken ones, the price of such machines has skyrocketed recently, the point > where I know I'll not be able to afford them. If I ever meet that idiot.... > > -tony Mirror, mirror on the wall...there were just about 34 readers of the article, (I know it from the source (the *****)) . Just wait and the price will go down, it always does.. Do you know if the interface is based on a standard interface like the TTL or BCD interface ? I just acquired a book called "the designers guide to interfacing" from HP written for the HP9800 series. It describes the 11202A and 11203A interfaces incl. diagrams. -Rik From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 06:58:09 2012 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 07:58:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I'm looking for a source for the data cable that connects a Commodore >> PET, CBM 8032 to a Commodore 4040 dual disk drive. The cable has an >> IEEE-488 connector on one end and a female PCB connector on the other. >> >> Any leads would be appreciated. Thanks! The Toronto Pet User's Group has NOS cables: http://www.tpug.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=73&Itemid=70 It's under 'Accessories', Item 21 $30 + shipping. I just picked one up last fall for my SuperPET. Steve -- From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 07:30:28 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:30:28 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 12:47 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: >> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >> >>> Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks >> >> Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low >> latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low >> latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 >> core that is 2+ times as fast? > > Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC > system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away in a > data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a > properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part I'm > responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, myself. --Toby (uses 8 core at work) > > Or how about this example: one core for background tasks (interrupt > handlers, what have you) and one core for foreground tasks. > > -spc (Just tossing ideas out there ... ) > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 07:33:00 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:33:00 -0500 Subject: Transputer architecture - Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F4312E5.7010606@neurotica.com> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> <4F42F8D1.9080904@neurotica.com> <4F4305E4.209@telegraphics.com.au> <4F4312E5.7010606@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F439D0C.8070706@telegraphics.com.au> On 20/02/12 10:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/20/2012 09:48 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Nobody is putting x86_64s on tiny boards embedded in vending machines >>>>> talking to GSM modems. (something I'm in the process of doing right >>>>> now!) >>>> >>>> OK, but why do your GSM modems need to be talking to 2+ interlinked >>>> cores rather than one core that is 2+ times as fast? What are you doing >>>> with them that makes controllling them with a single fast core >>>> impractical? >> > ... >>> Then it dawned on me: I had 144 very simple cores that are VERY cheap, >>> less than fourteen cents apiece at the single-unit quantity price: >>> implement a bit-banged SPI controller in one of those cores! ... >>> >>> In this case, it's not all about distributing "processes" across >>> multiple processors, but "functionality", where some of those >>> functionalities might be implemented in purpose-built, rather than >>> general-purpose hardware on more traditional microcontroller designs. >> >> That sounds like the Transputer model -- there was quite a diversity of >> devices accessible via the standard serial links: I/O, storage, >> graphics, networks, etc. > > Well sorta, but in that model you'd bit-bang all of that stuff with > (mostly) identical Transputers. My point was that Inmos sold a diversity of adapters interfaced through the links. It *wasn't* necessarily done with Transputers bit-banging (they wouldn't necessarily be fast enough anyway - e.g. video). --Toby > That would never have been > cost-effective back in those days. The cores in the GA144 (and related > chips) are SUPER simple (Chuck Moore's specialty) and as such are very > cheap. The 144-core die is tiny! > > -Dave > From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 07:37:47 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:37:47 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <6E206E33-E6B0-4F8A-B278-081274F339C0@gmail.com> On Feb 20, 2012, at 5:49 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: >> What if you could map Erlang processes to it? There are many industrial and general purpose Erlang programs now. It thrives on low-latency message passing between as many cores as possible. > > Sure, you can do that. And GreenArrays chips can run Forth really well. But, given XCore hardware and x86_64 hardware that costs the same, can XCore outperform x86_64 running that same Erlang code? Maybe not outperform, but (as has been mentioned before) sometimes it's a matter of having to fit in a size/power/heat envelope. Sure, you could bring the hammer down with a Core i7 Xeon or 4 (that's what we did with our application; 32 cores of Nehalem goodness), but you'll burn almost a kilowatt doing what works in a hundred watts for a more purpose-built chip just for the sake of going with COTS hardware. Or, if you're going smaller, it means you can fit it on an AMC card (which has a power budget of 35W). It's also a question of application; there are a lot of things people use DSPs for these days when there's no reason they shouldn't be using an FPGA, but there's also lots of idiots (usually in management) who specify an FPGA because it "sounds cool" when they really should be using a CPU, particularly for networking. In cases like that, manycore CPUs are really handy, because you can just dispatch each incoming packet to a CPU. > And, even more importantly, are there compute taks that can't be done quickly on x86_64 in any language, but can be done quickly on XCore? Probably not, but again, it's a matter of application constraints in a lot of cases. - Dave From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Feb 21 07:47:57 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:47:57 +0100 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120221144757.drqy5nxv1cc8kwgo@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Toby Thain : > Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel > make, myself. If you didn't see it yet ... > --Toby (uses 8 core at work) ... you're not using 8 cores at work ;-) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 21 09:26:34 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 08:26:34 -0700 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120221144757.drqy5nxv1cc8kwgo@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221144757.drqy5nxv1cc8kwgo@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <4F43B7AA.6020008@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/21/2012 6:47 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > Zitat von Toby Thain : > >> Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, >> myself. > > If you didn't see it yet ... > >> --Toby (uses 8 core at work) > > ... you're not using 8 cores at work ;-) > > I got *8* messages today, sounds like every core is busy pounding away the serial bits. Now to check for the **** ads in spam folder to how the Intel chips are doing. Ben. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 21 10:49:59 2012 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:49:59 +0100 Subject: FS or TD: HP 9845B Message-ID: <001501ccf0b8$dc80f7b0$9582e710$@xs4all.nl> I have a HP 9845T (B with 2 tape drives and printer) for trade or sale. The unit is in a nice optical condition, except for a bit screen mold on the monitor and the ROM's are bad, not a real problem because I throw in 2 ROM-boards with the programmed flash IC's. The only thing you have to do is to build the rom boards and place them in the HP 9845B (I did tested it with the board of my own and it works). I tested the PSU and replaced the filter caps with new ones. This also includes a manual and some other papers. Trade for other HP-stuff preferably HP 9800 items (roms manuals interfaces etc.) But I will consider other options. Item is located in the Netherlands. -Rik From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 21 11:24:50 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:24:50 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: > On 21/02/12 12:47 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > >It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: > >>On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >> > >>>Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks > >> > >>Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low > >>latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low > >>latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 > >>core that is 2+ times as fast? > > > > Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC > >system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away in a > >data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a > >properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part I'm > >responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. > > Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, > myself. I did a test on another sub-section of our codebase at work (this just happened to have a decently written Makefile). First, a non-parallel make (same system as above, 8-core SPARC system): real 4m36.002s user 4m3.075s sys 0m29.713s Now, a parallel make: real 0m22.330s user 7m54.787s sys 0m42.245s Something like 21 times faster. -spc (Not bad ... ) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 11:32:34 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:32:34 -0500 Subject: Card reader update Message-ID: On the good news side, it looks like $200 for a decent Documation is an accepted price, and payment can be done with Paypal. On the not so good side, it looks like not this week. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 11:56:24 2012 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:56:24 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F43DAC8.5060807@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Your neighbors find your microcomputers amusing. > Your neighbors find your minicomputers worrisome. > Your neighbors find your mainframes terrifying. That's pretty much what my neighbors think. :) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 12:21:21 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:21:21 -0500 Subject: Transputer architecture - Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F439D0C.8070706@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F418265.9000003@jbrain.com> <20120219182600.E42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41C210.2040501@jbrain.com> <20120219200012.C42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F41D3AC.5030201@jbrain.com> <502FC654-C684-4C17-9CE0-173F9D365251@neurotica.com> <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42EE73.3070306@neurotica.com> <4F42F8D1.9080904@neurotica.com> <4F4305E4.209@telegraphics.com.au> <4F4312E5.7010606@neurotica.com> <4F439D0C.8070706@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F43E0A1.1060404@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 08:33 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> That sounds like the Transputer model -- there was quite a diversity of >>> devices accessible via the standard serial links: I/O, storage, >>> graphics, networks, etc. >> >> Well sorta, but in that model you'd bit-bang all of that stuff with >> (mostly) identical Transputers. > > My point was that Inmos sold a diversity of adapters interfaced through > the links. It *wasn't* necessarily done with Transputers bit-banging > (they wouldn't necessarily be fast enough anyway - e.g. video). I get it. An excellent point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 12:23:48 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:23:48 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 08:30 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >> Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC >> system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away >> in a >> data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a >> properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part >> I'm >> responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. > > Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, > myself. > > --Toby (uses 8 core at work) I've *only* ever seen a superlinear speedup on parallel builds. Are your Makefiles ok? Actually there's one exception: running under SunOS 4. That was ages ago of course. It did SMP, but only one CPU can be in the kernel at once (one big lock!) so system calls were a big bottleneck. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 12:28:12 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:28:12 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120221144757.drqy5nxv1cc8kwgo@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221144757.drqy5nxv1cc8kwgo@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <4F43E23C.2080706@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 8:47 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > Zitat von Toby Thain : > >> Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, >> myself. > > If you didn't see it yet ... > >> --Toby (uses 8 core at work) > > ... you're not using 8 cores at work ;-) > You are perfectly right. I barely use one core, most of the time. Bad wording on my part. :) --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 12:30:17 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:30:17 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 12:24 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: >> On 21/02/12 12:47 AM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: >>>> On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: >>>> >>>>> Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks >>>> >>>> Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low >>>> latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low >>>> latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 >>>> core that is 2+ times as fast? >>> >>> Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC >>> system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away in a >>> data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a >>> properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part I'm >>> responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. >> >> Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, >> myself. > > I did a test on another sub-section of our codebase at work (this just > happened to have a decently written Makefile). First, a non-parallel make > (same system as above, 8-core SPARC system): > > real 4m36.002s > user 4m3.075s > sys 0m29.713s > > Now, a parallel make: > > real 0m22.330s > user 7m54.787s > sys 0m42.245s > > Something like 21 times faster. Where do you get 21x from? I see a wall clock ratio of about 12x (still amazing; can you explain why it's superlinear?) --Toby > > -spc (Not bad ... ) > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 13:00:29 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:00:29 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F43E9CD.3040302@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 1:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/21/2012 08:30 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>> Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC >>> system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away >>> in a >>> data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a >>> properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part >>> I'm >>> responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. >> >> Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, >> myself. >> >> --Toby (uses 8 core at work) > > I've *only* ever seen a superlinear speedup on parallel builds. Are your > Makefiles ok? Yes, I know how to write correct Makefiles. By superlinear I mean, taking less time than the serialised process divided by the number of cores, which is what Sean is seeing. I am not sure I've ever seen this. Close to 1/N, sure. But 0.7/N? --Toby > > Actually there's one exception: running under SunOS 4. That was ages ago > of course. It did SMP, but only one CPU can be in the kernel at once > (one big lock!) so system calls were a big bottleneck. > > -Dave > From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 21 13:18:30 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:18:30 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120221191830.GC7735@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: > On 21/02/12 12:24 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: > >>On 21/02/12 12:47 AM, Sean Conner wrote: > >>>It was thus said that the Great Alexey Toptygin once stated: > >>>>On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > >>>> > >>>>>Much much faster and lower power for multiple low latency coupled tasks > >>>> > >>>>Right. So call me ignorant, and give me some examples of multiple low > >>>>latency coupled tasks that can't be easily implemented as a single low > >>>>latency task. Why do you need 2+ cores talking to each other? Why not 1 > >>>>core that is 2+ times as fast? > >>> > >>> Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore > >>> SPARC > >>>system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away > >>>in a > >>>data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a > >>>properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part > >>>I'm > >>>responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. > >> > >>Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, > >>myself. > > > > I did a test on another sub-section of our codebase at work (this just > >happened to have a decently written Makefile). First, a non-parallel make > >(same system as above, 8-core SPARC system): > > > >real 4m36.002s > >user 4m3.075s > >sys 0m29.713s > > > > Now, a parallel make: > > > >real 0m22.330s > >user 7m54.787s > >sys 0m42.245s > > > > Something like 21 times faster. > > Where do you get 21x from? I see a wall clock ratio of about 12x (still > amazing; can you explain why it's superlinear?) I think I used the wrong value when calculating the 21x figure. But still, 12x is not bad (especially given 22 seconds vs. 4.5 minutes). -spc From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 21 13:22:46 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:22:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 21, 12 01:23:48 pm" Message-ID: <201202211922.q1LJMlbt8585302@floodgap.com> > Actually there's one exception: running under SunOS 4. That was ages > ago of course. It did SMP, but only one CPU can be in the kernel at > once (one big lock!) so system calls were a big bottleneck. Was SunOS 4 SMP? I thought that was the whole point of Solbourne making OS/MP, because SunOS *wasn't*. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TODAY'S HEADLINES: Corduroy pillows ---------------------------------------- From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 21 13:31:58 2012 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:31:58 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43E9CD.3040302@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> <4F43E9CD.3040302@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <20120221193158.GD7735@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: > On 21/02/12 1:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 02/21/2012 08:30 AM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>>Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC > >>>system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away > >>>in a > >>>data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a > >>>properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part > >>>I'm > >>>responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. > >> > >>Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, > >>myself. > >> > >>--Toby (uses 8 core at work) > > > >I've *only* ever seen a superlinear speedup on parallel builds. Are your > >Makefiles ok? > > Yes, I know how to write correct Makefiles. If a "make clean ; make -j" breaks, then the Makefile isn't correct 8-) > By superlinear I mean, taking less time than the serialised process > divided by the number of cores, which is what Sean is seeing. I am not > sure I've ever seen this. Close to 1/N, sure. But 0.7/N? The directory I posted figures for has 389 files to compile (C++). It wouldn't surprise me that there are a few files that take a while to compile, while in the same time, other cores could compile a multiple number of files. I'm sure there's an answer in queueing theory (it's faster for one line of customers to N tellers than one line for one teller). In another section of the codebase, there's a subsection that takes around 1:30 (one minute, 30 seconds) to compile serially, and 1:15 parallel, but that's because there's one file that's a few megabytes in size [1]. -spc (I also avoid recursive makes) [1] I can't be sure of certain data files being install where the program runs, so it's easier to just embed said data files into the executable. This is purely for testing purposes, not release. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 13:51:09 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:51:09 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <201202211922.q1LJMlbt8585302@floodgap.com> References: <201202211922.q1LJMlbt8585302@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F43F5AD.1040800@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 02:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Actually there's one exception: running under SunOS 4. That was ages >> ago of course. It did SMP, but only one CPU can be in the kernel at >> once (one big lock!) so system calls were a big bottleneck. > > Was SunOS 4 SMP? I thought that was the whole point of Solbourne making > OS/MP, because SunOS *wasn't*. Yes, SunOS 4 supports SMP. I ran dozens of multiprocessor machines running SunOS 4. Solbourne scaled it beyond four processors and improved things a bit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 21 13:57:01 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 11:57:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43F5AD.1040800@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 21, 12 02:51:09 pm" Message-ID: <201202211957.q1LJv1kD8519700@floodgap.com> > > Was SunOS 4 SMP? I thought that was the whole point of Solbourne making > > OS/MP, because SunOS *wasn't*. > > Yes, SunOS 4 supports SMP. I ran dozens of multiprocessor machines > running SunOS 4. Solbourne scaled it beyond four processors and > improved things a bit. Ah, okay. Yes, Solbourne certainly did go farther with it in those days. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- All generalizations are false, including this one. -- Mark Twain ----------- From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 14:04:34 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:04:34 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 21/02/12 12:24 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> I did a test on another sub-section of our codebase at work (this just >> happened to have a decently written Makefile). First, a non-parallel make >> (same system as above, 8-core SPARC system): >> >> real 4m36.002s >> user 4m3.075s >> sys 0m29.713s >> >> Now, a parallel make: >> >> real 0m22.330s >> user 7m54.787s >> sys 0m42.245s >> >> Something like 21 times faster. > > Where do you get 21x from? I see a wall clock ratio of about 12x (still amazing; can you explain why it's superlinear?) It's superlinear because of the constraints of I/O (reading the file off the disk) vs. CPU (compiling the file). Actually compiling the file (depending on language, of course) can be miniscule compared to the overhead of reading off the disk. I typically use a number of jobs equal to 1.5 the number of processors in the system; I have a 4-core i7 which masquerades as 8 due to hyperthreading (which they actually got right in the i7, as opposed to the P4). I don't see a *lot* of difference between 9 and 12 jobs. If I were to guess why it would be superlinear in the general case, I would imagine it's because the header files then wind up in the file cache while you're using them. I've never profiled it. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 21 14:12:21 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:12:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <201202211957.q1LJv1kD8519700@floodgap.com> References: <201202211957.q1LJv1kD8519700@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <201202212012.PAA24034@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> Was SunOS 4 SMP? I thought that was the whole point of Solbourne >>> making OS/MP, because SunOS *wasn't*. >> Yes, SunOS 4 supports SMP. I ran dozens of multiprocessor machines >> running SunOS 4. Solbourne scaled it beyond four processors and >> improved things a bit. Also, didn't Solbourne do it earlier? Or is my wetware storage dropping bits again? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 21 14:26:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:26:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120221055554.GF1565@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> <20120221055554.GF1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20120221122149.M3680@shell.lmi.net> > > Can it negotiate with college administrators? Is there a defenestration > > peripheral? On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Sean Conner wrote: > -spc (I doubt it---no one likes to clean up after a computer defenestrated > itself---the bits get *everywhere*!) A properly implemented defestration peripheral will defenestrate admninistrators, with no alteration to the installation nor configuration of the computer. Mainframes, with the possible exception of microcomputer based mainframes such as AT/370, are not subject to the need for inverse defenestration - (throwing windows out of the computer). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 14:37:16 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:37:16 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <201202211957.q1LJv1kD8519700@floodgap.com> References: <201202211957.q1LJv1kD8519700@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F44007C.9080305@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 02:57 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Was SunOS 4 SMP? I thought that was the whole point of Solbourne making >>> OS/MP, because SunOS *wasn't*. >> >> Yes, SunOS 4 supports SMP. I ran dozens of multiprocessor machines >> running SunOS 4. Solbourne scaled it beyond four processors and >> improved things a bit. > > Ah, okay. Yes, Solbourne certainly did go farther with it in those days. Yes. I had a six-processor Solbourne system for awhile. I never could get it running because I didn't have OS media. It was a very well-built piece of hardware! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 21 14:44:17 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 12:44:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F44007C.9080305@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 21, 12 03:37:16 pm" Message-ID: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> > > Ah, okay. Yes, Solbourne certainly did go farther with it in those days. > > Yes. I had a six-processor Solbourne system for awhile. I never > could get it running because I didn't have OS media. It was a very > well-built piece of hardware! I have a Solbourne S3000 with the really hot (well, warm, anyway) orange plasma built-in display and the case. It's a neat system. In storage I have a couple pizza-box S4x00s and there's a big 5/xxx something around there somewhere too. But I love the S3000, especially because it's luggable, and the whole look is more wacky than the SPARCstation voyager. I should have OS/MP 4.1C around here somewhere. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, kids: for great justice take off every zig! ---------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 14:45:57 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:45:57 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <201202212012.PAA24034@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202211957.q1LJv1kD8519700@floodgap.com> <201202212012.PAA24034@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F440285.1030107@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 03:12 PM, Mouse wrote: >>>> Was SunOS 4 SMP? I thought that was the whole point of Solbourne >>>> making OS/MP, because SunOS *wasn't*. >>> Yes, SunOS 4 supports SMP. I ran dozens of multiprocessor machines >>> running SunOS 4. Solbourne scaled it beyond four processors and >>> improved things a bit. > > Also, didn't Solbourne do it earlier? Or is my wetware storage > dropping bits again? Did they? That's certainly possible. I don't recall offhand. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 14:47:25 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:47:25 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F43E9CD.3040302@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20120220073902.j6uja7ka8s0gos88@webmail.opentransfer.com> <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> <4F43E9CD.3040302@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <4F4402DD.6040201@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 02:00 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>> Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC >>>> system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away >>>> in a >>>> data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a >>>> properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part >>>> I'm >>>> responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. >>> >>> Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, >>> myself. >>> >>> --Toby (uses 8 core at work) >> >> I've *only* ever seen a superlinear speedup on parallel builds. Are your >> Makefiles ok? > > Yes, I know how to write correct Makefiles. I did not mean to suggest otherwise. I disagree with some of your viewpoints, but I know that you know your stuff. > By superlinear I mean, taking less time than the serialised process > divided by the number of cores, which is what Sean is seeing. I am not > sure I've ever seen this. Close to 1/N, sure. But 0.7/N? Dave Riley addressed this in a later email when I wasn't looking. :) I agree with his assessment based on my own experiences. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 14:49:13 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:49:13 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F440349.2010409@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 03:04 PM, David Riley wrote: > I have a 4-core i7 which masquerades as 8 due to hyperthreading > (which they actually got right in the i7, as opposed to the P4). I > don't see a *lot* of difference between 9 and 12 jobs. Oh dear, the replay mechanism problem? Wow what a mess that was! I had assumed they'd fixed that by now; I'm glad to hear that they really did. (typing this on a screaming fast i7 just like yours...it's about time x86 processors got almost as fast as my UltraSPARCs, even though they require 3x the clock rate to do it!) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 15:02:23 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:02:23 -0000 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F42EB18.3070002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <12B1BE0F66444950BF8F4422CB787153@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: 21 February 2012 00:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last > mainframe) > > > On 02/20/2012 06:24 PM, Dave wrote: > >> -----Original Message----- > > At Newcastle there were lots of problems with their IBM 370 > I think it was > > eventually tracked down to some circuits with faulty > bonding of the copper > > to the pcbs in some units. Recently when we had an IBM > MP3000 which some > > would call a mainframe (It runs 370/xa and ESA code) it had a lower > > availability that our Windows servers. > > That's scary. > > I have an MP3000 here that I'm trying to get running. Do > you know a > bunch about them? > Sadly no. I am pretty sure I could have had the one from work when we binned it but I didn't take it as I had concerns about keeping it working given the fun the IBM guy had with it when it went wrong, and the fact the getting a licence for VM would have been fun and expensive.... > I'd definitely call it a mainframe; it uses the same processor > chipset as an S/390 G5. (for others reading this, ZERO relation to > PowerPC G5) > > > To me a Mainframe was largely about the i/o, so perhaps > eparate, dedicated , > > programmable, identifiable i/o processor? I am note sure if > the z9 has > > these, or if like the MP3000 the i/o processors are > "emulated" by a service > > processor... > > The z9 has massive, massive I/O capacity that is most > definitely NOT > emulated. Oh yes it's a real monster of a beast, I think perhaps it should be called a "super mainframe" , "Mainframe Complex" or "mainframe cluster" because what you get is a box that can run several independent copies of operating systems. Looking at some articles on the i/o re-enforces this view. In fact I don't think it would make sense to run a single zOS image on one of these modern boxes as you probably can't get it any where near flat out. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 14:33:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:33:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Feb 20, 12 01:37:07 pm Message-ID: > Just for fun, it could be the Melbourne in Florida. I'm in Bakersfield. > There's a few of those scattered about. Indeed. A lot of times when the Brits settled in another country, they founded places with the same names that they rememebred from the UK. But in this case, the original message did specify Australia or the UK, so I think it's reasonable to assuem the Melbourne is one of the oens in theose 2 countries, probably the well-known city in the former. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 15:01:27 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:01:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: <002f01ccf07e$11990bd0$34cb2370$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Feb 21, 12 10:49:07 am Message-ID: > Mirror, mirror on the wall...there were just about 34 readers of the > article, (I know it from the source (the *****)) . It's potentially rather more than that... And the number of people who know such repair information exists is consiterably higher... > Just wait and the price will go down, it always does.. Let's hope... > Do you know if the interface is based on a standard interface like the TTL > or BCD interface ? I am almsot sure it is, but it's complicated. It uses the 'DMA' feature of the 9830 (whcih si not what we'd now call DMA, it's not independant of the PCU, it's more a way of bringing the memory bus out -- serially -- on the I/O connecotr). The 'cable' -- an HP11273 -- has a PCB at each end in a housing that looks like the normal HP9800 I/O module. One plugs into the back of the 9830, the other plugs into a slot on the front of the 11305 disck controller. The HP9830 end contains the shift registers to handle the memory bus, the controlelr end has a 356 word I think it's actually 1K*4) RAM t oact as a sector buffer. I think it will all be stnadard ICs. After all, both the 9830 and 11305 are (well, apart from programmed ROMs). The only power line on the 11305 connecotr is +5V, all signals are TTL level. I hace a pinout of the 11305 conenctor, but that's not really enough to recreate it. > I just acquired a book called "the designers guide to interfacing" from HP > written for the HP9800 series. > It describes the 11202A and 11203A interfaces incl. diagrams. Yes, I found that in a clearout pile at a place I was studying (the pile was labelled 'Please take any of this you are interested in', I took about 3/4 of it). I had it long before I had any 9800 machines. In fact that was a major clue in figuring out the hardware of the 9810 (the 9800 I got fitst) -- I had much of the I/O slot pinout from that book. Given that, I could find things like the I/O register, that led to the serial signals between the CPU sections, and so on. AFIAK there are no official scheamtics for the disk system though. I have an 'unofficial set' for the main 11305 unit, and a microcode lisitng for that. But nothing on the cable (for obvious reasons). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 14:38:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:38:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: <4F42BFA4.3060303@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Feb 20, 12 03:48:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/20/2012 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I needed such a cable about 10 years ago, and I couldn't find oen > > anywhere (I suspect they do turn up on E-bay). I ended up making an > > adaptor with a 12*2 0.156" pitch edge connector at one and and a 24 pin > > microribbon connector at the other. It was only a couple of inches long, > > so normal ribbon cable worked fine. In fact the hardest part was making > > the jckposts for the microribbon connector, the right ones seem to be > > unobtainable over here, so I had to machine them myself. > Might I borrow a variant of that design? I have 12/24 edge connectors > here, and I have proper Centronics 24 pin IEEE connectors. I was > thinking a little PCB with the edge connector on one side and the IEEE > socket on the other. Sure. I don;t think I can lay any claim to a 'design' which is electrically identical to the Commodore cable and which simply consists of matchign up signal names on the 2 conenctors. So feel free to make it on a PCB, sell it commerically (I won't care, maybe whoever nowe owns the rights to Commodore stuff will), etc. If you decide to sell them, I do urge you to make it abaialbe as a bare PCB or kit. Solderign that up is very easy, and if the purchaser does it themselves, they can use whatever solder they like.... Another way to make such an adapter cable is to cut a normal HPIB cable in half and to wire the cut endes ot edge connectors. You then have 2 Commoodre disk unit cables. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 21 14:44:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:44:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: <007301ccf037$4a249240$36fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Feb 21, 12 01:18:36 am Message-ID: > For further laughs, I live near Cambridge. The last time I searched for > Cambridge online, I discovered that there is (atleast) one in Canada, and > one in every US state! Since then I always write Cambridge, UK when > referring to Cambridge to avoid any possible confusion. Yes, but which 'Cambridge, UK'? The City with a well-known university, or the small village in Gloucestershire? -tony From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 15:31:45 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:31:45 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F440349.2010409@neurotica.com> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> <4F440349.2010409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Feb 21, 2012, at 3:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 02/21/2012 03:04 PM, David Riley wrote: >> I have a 4-core i7 which masquerades as 8 due to hyperthreading >> (which they actually got right in the i7, as opposed to the P4). I >> don't see a *lot* of difference between 9 and 12 jobs. > > Oh dear, the replay mechanism problem? Wow what a mess that was! I had assumed they'd fixed that by now; I'm glad to hear that they really did. (typing this on a screaming fast i7 just like yours...it's about time x86 processors got almost as fast as my UltraSPARCs, even though they require 3x the clock rate to do it!) Well, after the P4 mess, they just dropped it from the original Core architecture (which was a complete reboot from the mess that was the P4). They added it back in on the i7 family, and it does help a bit; I get something like a 30% speedup on my simple raytracer running 8 threads instead of 4, and that's basically CPU and memory bound (very, very little I/O and system call overhead; no thread locks except for getting the next pixel position, even). ISTR that hyperthreading generally imposed a performance *penalty* on the P4. - Dave From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 16:41:42 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:41:42 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F441DA6.5030704@gmail.com> On 02/19/2012 04:20 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > But, it then begs the question. What is a mainframe anyway, and can a > clear distinction be made between the 'mainframe" and other server > technologies nowadays? It is not a mainframe unless you can physically fit inside at least one of the cabinets. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 21 16:42:17 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:42:17 -0800 Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: References: <007301ccf037$4a249240$36fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Feb 21, 12 01:18:36 am, Message-ID: <4F43AD49.8869.44831@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2012 at 20:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > For further laughs, I live near Cambridge. The last time I searched > > for Cambridge online, I discovered that there is (atleast) one in > > Canada, and one in every US state! Since then I always write > > Cambridge, UK when referring to Cambridge to avoid any possible > > confusion. > > Yes, but which 'Cambridge, UK'? The City with a well-known university, > or the small village in Gloucestershire? I don't know who the original post is by, but it's not true that there's a "Cambridge" (or a river named Cam) in every US state. Not even close. A quick check shows, for instance, that there's no city or town named "Cambridge" in Oregon, Hawaii or Alaska--the closest one seems to be in Idaho. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 21 16:58:01 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 14:58:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: <4F43AD49.8869.44831@cclist.sydex.com> References: <007301ccf037$4a249240$36fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Feb 21, 12 01:18:36 am, <4F43AD49.8869.44831@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120221145652.G13764@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 21 Feb 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know who the original post is by, but it's not true that > there's a "Cambridge" (or a river named Cam) in every US state. Not > even close. A quick check shows, for instance, that there's no city > or town named "Cambridge" in Oregon, Hawaii or Alaska--the closest > one seems to be in Idaho. How many states are there in USA without a "Springfield"? From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 21 17:07:53 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:07:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s In-Reply-To: <20120221145652.G13764@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Feb 21, 12 02:58:01 pm" Message-ID: <201202212307.q1LN7rLC8913002@floodgap.com> > > I don't know who the original post is by, but it's not true that > > there's a "Cambridge" (or a river named Cam) in every US state. Not > > even close. A quick check shows, for instance, that there's no city > > or town named "Cambridge" in Oregon, Hawaii or Alaska--the closest > > one seems to be in Idaho. > > How many states are there in USA without a "Springfield"? But there are many states that border Springfield. For example, Ohio, Nevada, Maine and Kentucky all do. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Let us live! Let us love! Let us share our darkest secrets! ... you first. - From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Feb 21 17:39:01 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:39:01 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup for an 11/780 at the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 has long ago been scrapped. So, the 11/03 has the following boards: M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1 M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator I also have the RX01 drive. So, other than media, what other options do I need to get this running as an 11/03? Where is the best place to get some basic media images? Is it possible to create boot media on the 8" drives I have connected to my PC using IMAGEDISK, 22DISK or the catweasel? I know a lot of these questions are answered out there, but I've not seen (yet) a simple step by step to get one of these running. I have the opportunity to get a couple of memory boards also: M8044-DB 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11 M8044-DE 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11 So, will these work with this 11/03? It seems they will, but I was looking for verification. Thanks for any help, and of course the associated "have you tried googling..." responses. Kelly From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 17:47:52 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 17:47:52 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F442D28.2070300@gmail.com> On 02/20/2012 08:00 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the >> office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and >> had ordered itself a replacement. > > Yes, the Stratus machine at the Milwaukee School of Engineering did > that while I was there, but it was a processor board. Many Stratus > sites have similar stories. I remember wandering around Weta Digital circa 2001, and the same was true of their SGI systems (in my case it was hard disks that I was told about) - I'm not sure if the "phone home" was an SGI feature, or something that they'd cooked up themselves. It seemed like a useful feature for any kind of environment where uptime was crucial. cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 21 17:50:15 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 15:50:15 -0800 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F440349.2010409@neurotica.com> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> <4F440349.2010409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F442DB7.4010006@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Oh dear, the replay mechanism problem? Wow what a mess that was! I > had assumed they'd fixed that by now; The replay penalty was basically eliminated in the "Prescott" Pentium 4 and later. From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Feb 21 17:59:53 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 18:59:53 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kelly D. Leavitt > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 6:39 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 > > I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup for an > 11/780 at the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 > has long ago been scrapped. > > So, the 11/03 has the following boards: > M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces > M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1 > M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) > M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM > M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller > M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator > I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen) From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 18:17:51 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:17:51 +0000 Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: References: <4F3F001B.2000902@decodesystems.com> Message-ID: On 20 February 2012 20:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > I needed such a able about 190years ago You've been at this game longer than I realised! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 18:19:22 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:19:22 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4F44348A.9040201@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 06:39 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup for an 11/780 at > the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 has long ago been > scrapped. *sniffle* > So, the 11/03 has the following boards: > M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces > M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1 > M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) > M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM > M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller > M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator All good. Make sure you have ROMs on the REV11-E (M9400-YE). I don't recall if they're typically socketed or not. > I also have the RX01 drive. So, other than media, what other options do > I need to get this running as an 11/03? Where is the best place to get > some basic media images? Is it possible to create boot media on the 8" > drives I have connected to my PC using IMAGEDISK, 22DISK or the > catweasel? You should be able to create usable RX01 disks (which are ordinary SS/SD, IBM 3740-compatible format disks) with a standard 8" drive if you have a way to control it. I've not done this with a PC, but I'd imagine the tools you mentioned should work fine. Personally I use an RX02 connected to a PDP-11 running 2.11BSD, so I just FTP a disk image over and dd it to the drive. (haven't even had to do that in a while, since I rarely use floppies on PDP-11s) As far as what other stuff you need, you're good except for memory. Even RT11SJ (the "single job" monitor) (v5.3) appears to require 16kw of memory, at least from my tests awhile back. In practical terms all you'll really be able to run on that machine is RT-11. I'm not saying that as if it's a bad thing, mind you. You can get RT-11 boot disk images for the simh emulator; those are "raw" disk images which you can write directly to a floppy (assuming RX01 vs. RX02) and they'll work. If you have trouble finding that stuff, let me know and I'll make one up for you quickly. > I know a lot of these questions are answered out there, but I've not > seen (yet) a simple step by step to get one of these running. That's because you're supposed to just KNOW! ;) (yeah, that's the way it seems...the only way I "just know" is because I got my first one a few decades ago, and was lucky enough to get all the documentation!) > I have the opportunity to get a couple of memory boards also: > M8044-DB 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11 > M8044-DE 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11 > > So, will these work with this 11/03? It seems they will, but I was > looking for verification. Yes, they should be fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 18:20:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:20:14 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 06:59 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen) Very nice! I love those. Does it have the FIS option? (the fifth 40-pin DIP) You know what that chipset is, right? I mean where it came from originally? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Feb 21 18:50:22 2012 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly D. Leavitt) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:50:22 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> > Dave McGuire wrote > On 02/21/2012 06:59 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > > I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen) > > Very nice! I love those. Does it have the FIS option? > (the fifth 40-pin DIP) > > You know what that chipset is, right? I mean where it > came from originally? > No, it only has 4 40 pin dips. Where did FIS come from? > > So, the 11/03 has the following boards: > > M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces > > M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1 > > M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) > > M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM > > M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller > > M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator > > M7264 : quad wide 11/03 > All good. Make sure you have ROMs on the REV11-E (M9400-YE). I don't recall if they're typically socketed or not. There are no ROMS on the M9400-YE. It seems to have 3 buffers or terminators (16 pin or 14 pin dips), a couple of resistors, and two header sockets. I think these used to go to a board in the 780 and they loaded boot code from there. This might be my biggest problem here. Kelly KB2SYD From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 19:00:46 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:00:46 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 07:50 PM, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: >>> I also have the M7264 quad wide 11/03 (thanks Glen) >> >> Very nice! I love those. Does it have the FIS option? >> (the fifth 40-pin DIP) >> >> You know what that chipset is, right? I mean where it >> came from originally? > > No, it only has 4 40 pin dips. Where did FIS come from? Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. The fifth 40-pin DIP is the FIS option microcode ROM, which gives you floating-point instructions implemented in microcode. > There are no ROMS on the M9400-YE. It seems to have 3 buffers or > terminators (16 pin or 14 pin dips), a couple of resistors, and two > header sockets. I think these used to go to a board in the 780 and they > loaded boot code from there. This might be my biggest problem here. Ok. I've never "de-11/780d" an 11/780 console 11/03; I will see if I can find some info about it. We should just replace that board with a BDV11. I have a bunch of those and can, as the cool kids say, "hook you up". -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 19:14:24 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:14:24 -0500 Subject: Parallel make faster than serial/N? - Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F444170.6050808@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 3:04 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 21, 2012, at 1:30 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >> On 21/02/12 12:24 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> I did a test on another sub-section of our codebase at work (this just >>> happened to have a decently written Makefile). First, a non-parallel make >>> (same system as above, 8-core SPARC system): >>> >>> real 4m36.002s >>> user 4m3.075s >>> sys 0m29.713s >>> >>> Now, a parallel make: >>> >>> real 0m22.330s >>> user 7m54.787s >>> sys 0m42.245s >>> >>> Something like 21 times faster. >> >> Where do you get 21x from? I see a wall clock ratio of about 12x (still amazing; can you explain why it's superlinear?) > > It's superlinear because of the constraints of I/O (reading the file off the disk) vs. CPU (compiling the file). Actually compiling the file Wouldn't a large buffer cache pretty much make that disparity vanish? Most systems can buffer many times more than the total size of source. I still don't see a clear explanation, because my reasoning is: - assume a very small cache in relation to source - parallel job kicks off 1..N compiles, let's say N unique source files and 20*N common include files. So each compile process works through 21 files. - the problem is, if your cache is smaller than that overall job, ANY of these compiles is going to blow the cache. Running in parallel doesn't help. On the other hand, if ALL of the source is cached, again, parallel make doesn't win, because serial make gets exactly the same advantage. Did I miss something - exactly what mechanism is helping if it's not cache? --Toby (depending on language, of course) can be miniscule compared to the overhead of reading off the disk. I typically use a number of jobs equal to 1.5 the number of processors in the system; I have a 4-core i7 which masquerades as 8 due to hyperthreading (which they actually got right in the i7, as opposed to the P4). I don't see a *lot* of difference between 9 and 12 jobs. > > If I were to guess why it would be superlinear in the general case, > I would imagine it's because the header files then wind up in the file cache while you're using them. I've never profiled it. > - Dave > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 19:16:51 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:16:51 -0500 Subject: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <20120221193158.GD7735@brevard.conman.org> References: <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <4F43E134.7020904@neurotica.com> <4F43E9CD.3040302@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221193158.GD7735@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <4F444203.2080000@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 2:31 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated: >> On 21/02/12 1:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On 02/21/2012 08:30 AM, Toby Thain wrote: >>>>> Not an embedded system, but at work we have access to a multicore SPARC >>>>> system (Sun, I don't recall the model since it's actually stashed away >>>>> in a >>>>> data center) with 8 cores. Doing a parallel make (it helps to have a >>>>> properly written makefile; I went to the trouble to do so for the part >>>>> I'm >>>>> responsible for) only takes 1/10th the time of a non-parallel make. >>>> >>>> Impressive. I've yet to see a *super*linear speedup for parallel make, >>>> myself. >>>> >>>> --Toby (uses 8 core at work) >>> >>> I've *only* ever seen a superlinear speedup on parallel builds. Are your >>> Makefiles ok? >> >> Yes, I know how to write correct Makefiles. > > If a "make clean ; make -j" breaks, then the Makefile isn't correct 8-) I'm aware of that. :) It is a good test of correctness. Every makefile I write is expected to pass it. > >> By superlinear I mean, taking less time than the serialised process >> divided by the number of cores, which is what Sean is seeing. I am not >> sure I've ever seen this. Close to 1/N, sure. But 0.7/N? > > The directory I posted figures for has 389 files to compile (C++). It > wouldn't surprise me that there are a few files that take a while to > compile, while in the same time, other cores could compile a multiple number > of files. I'm sure there's an answer in queueing theory (it's faster for > one line of customers to N tellers than one line for one teller). > That seems more plausible than the caching suggestion. > In another section of the codebase, there's a subsection that takes around > 1:30 (one minute, 30 seconds) to compile serially, and 1:15 parallel, but > that's because there's one file that's a few megabytes in size [1]. > > -spc (I also avoid recursive makes) Right. They lead to incomplete graphs, and failures. But we all know that by now... --Toby > > [1] I can't be sure of certain data files being install where the > program runs, so it's easier to just embed said data files into the > executable. This is purely for testing purposes, not release. > From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 21 19:48:37 2012 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 01:48:37 +0000 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:01 PM > Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five > chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode > rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. Um. At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed (by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11 chip set using new microcode. That was 30+ years ago, so I have no way to back it up now, but I'm going to challenge you to provide the evidence that WD came first. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From useddec at gmail.com Tue Feb 21 20:09:12 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:09:12 -0600 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> Message-ID: The only difference between the M8044-DB and DEis the manufacturer of the chips. The first letter A=8K B=16K C=24K D=32K These are easy to find for no more than $25. Paul On 2/21/12, Kelly D. Leavitt wrote: > I have a PDP 11/03 that used to be part of the startup for an 11/780 at > the University of Arkansas at Fayettville. The 780 has long ago been > scrapped. > > So, the 11/03 has the following boards: > M8017-AA : DLV11-E/EC Single-line async control module (Replaces > M8017,M8017-YB) Renamed DLVE1 > M7940 : DLV11 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) > M7944 : MSV11-B 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM > M7946 : RXV11 RX01 8" floppy disk controller > M9400-YE : Bootstrap terminator > > I also have the RX01 drive. So, other than media, what other options do > I need to get this running as an 11/03? Where is the best place to get > some basic media images? Is it possible to create boot media on the 8" > drives I have connected to my PC using IMAGEDISK, 22DISK or the > catweasel? > > I know a lot of these questions are answered out there, but I've not > seen (yet) a simple step by step to get one of these running. > > I have the opportunity to get a couple of memory boards also: > M8044-DB 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11 > M8044-DE 32K, 16-BIT RAM for LSI-11 > > So, will these work with this 11/03? It seems they will, but I was > looking for verification. > > Thanks for any help, and of course the associated "have you tried > googling..." responses. > > Kelly > > > > From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 21 20:11:19 2012 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 20:11:19 -0600 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw. com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201202220210.q1M2AoDC073146@billy.ezwind.net> At 07:48 PM 2/21/2012, Rich Alderson wrote: >At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed >(by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11 >chip set using new microcode. That was 30+ years ago, so I have no >way to back it up now, but I'm going to challenge you to provide the >evidence that WD came first. Wikipedia agrees, and so do I. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MCP-1600 - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 21 20:14:43 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:14:43 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F444F93.1070007@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 08:48 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five >> chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode >> rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. > > Um. > > At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed > (by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11 > chip set using new microcode. That was 30+ years ago, so I have no > way to back it up now, but I'm going to challenge you to provide the > evidence that WD came first. Huh. I have no such evidence, but I regard it as fairly common knowledge. It was explained to me by a DECcie when I was a kid in the early 1980s. How authoritative is the "person who would have known"? The guy who explained it to me could very well have been mistaken. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 21 20:56:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 21:56:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Parallel make faster than serial/N? - Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F444170.6050808@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> <4F444170.6050808@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201202220256.VAA00912@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It's superlinear because [...] > - assume a very small cache in relation to source > - parallel job kicks off 1..N compiles, let's say N unique source > files and 20*N common include files. So each compile process works > through 21 files. > - the problem is, if your cache is smaller than that overall job, > ANY of these compiles is going to blow the cache. Running in > parallel doesn't help. Doesn't help with the cache, but does help, because while job X is waiting for the disk, job Y can be doing something CPU-bound. Single-job it, and all your wait-for-disk moments will be spent idling (at least as far as getting the make done goes). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 21 21:19:54 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:19:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: References: <4F3F001B.2000902@decodesystems.com> Message-ID: <20120221191831.U13764@shell.lmi.net> > On 20 February 2012 20:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > I needed such a able about 190years ago > On Wed, 22 Feb 2012, Liam Proven wrote: > You've been at this game longer than I realised! But, in those days, onwe merely needed "able". Cables were unnecessary. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Feb 21 21:23:03 2012 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:23:03 -0500 Subject: Parallel make faster than serial/N? - Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <201202220256.VAA00912@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> <4F444170.6050808@telegraphics.com.au> <201202220256.VAA00912@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F445F97.6040707@telegraphics.com.au> On 21/02/12 9:56 PM, Mouse wrote: >>> It's superlinear because [...] > >> - assume a very small cache in relation to source >> - parallel job kicks off 1..N compiles, let's say N unique source >> files and 20*N common include files. So each compile process works >> through 21 files. >> - the problem is, if your cache is smaller than that overall job, >> ANY of these compiles is going to blow the cache. Running in >> parallel doesn't help. > > Doesn't help with the cache, but does help, because while job X is > waiting for the disk, job Y can be doing something CPU-bound. > Single-job it, and all your wait-for-disk moments will be spent idling > (at least as far as getting the make done goes). Right, if certain tasks are cpu bound and other tasks are i/o bound then perhaps we run into the more subtle analysis hinted at by Sean, where accidental overlaps might be helping (since nothing is done to *deliberately* optimise this situation). But if everything is I/O bound then I don't see how parallelising it would help. --Toby > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 21 21:31:01 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 19:31:01 -0800 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7FD6A0@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4F446175.5040608@bitsavers.org> On 2/21/12 5:48 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 5:01 PM > >> Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five >> chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode >> rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. > > Um. > > At the time that the WD Pascal MicroEngine came out, I was informed > (by someone who would have known) that *it* was a re-use of the LSI-11 > chip set using new microcode. There was also a WD1600 which was neither PDP-11 nor P-Code, and the original CPU from Alpha Microsystems. I'd have to do some digging to see if that and the WD1600 were similar. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 21 23:22:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 00:22:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: Parallel make faster than serial/N? - Re: non-x86 multicore - Re: CPU monoculture In-Reply-To: <4F445F97.6040707@telegraphics.com.au> References: <4F429F5B.9020308@telegraphics.com.au> <4F42BDE3.8000802@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221054730.GD1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F439C74.6060705@telegraphics.com.au> <20120221172450.GB7735@brevard.conman.org> <4F43E2B9.6000609@telegraphics.com.au> <53D0C6A9-64F8-4DE4-9A8C-6A4A288A54ED@gmail.com> <4F444170.6050808@telegraphics.com.au> <201202220256.VAA00912@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F445F97.6040707@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <201202220522.AAA03273@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [W]hile job X is waiting for the disk, job Y can be doing something >> CPU-bound. [...] > Right, if certain tasks are cpu bound and other tasks are i/o bound > then perhaps [...] > But if everything is I/O bound then I don't see how parallelising it > would help. It won't, in most cases. (It still may in a few special cases.) But few-to-no of the things make is used to drive are really very close to totally CPU-bound or totally I/O-bound. Compilations, for example, are typically I/O-bound for a little while, then CPU-bound for a bit, then I/O-bound again briefly. Depending on how the compiler is designed, of course, the details will vary - for example, there may be three phases of I/O and two of CPU - but the basic idea is still valid; on a short time scale, it switches back and forth between I/O and CPU, and the scheduler is entirely capable of giving the CPU to task Y while the disk gets around to handling task X's I/O; even if it's only a clock tick or two before things switch places, that's enough to help. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 22 00:10:26 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:10:26 -0800 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five > chips. It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode > rewritten to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. Other way around. The WD Pascal Microengine came about a few years after the LSI-11 (1979 vs. February 1975). It was actually the third "standard" use of that chipset, after the LSI-11 and the WD16 (very nearly PDP-11 compatible, used in the Alpha Micro systems before they switched to the 68K). The chipset was specifically designed for the LSI-11. It is optimized for instruction decode and dispatch for the PDP-11 instruction set, and is somewhat less efficient for implementing a bytecode instruction set like UCSD P-code. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 22 00:15:46 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:15:46 +0100 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F442D28.2070300@gmail.com> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F442D28.2070300@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20120222071546.8owmq2hntw4ocww4@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Jules Richardson : > I'm not sure if the "phone home" was an SGI feature, or > something that they'd cooked up themselves. It seemed like a useful > feature for any kind of environment where uptime was crucial. Computers with build in diagnosis? HAL? ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 22 00:25:14 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 01:25:14 -0500 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> On 02/22/2012 01:10 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five chips. >> It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode rewritten >> to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. > > Other way around. The WD Pascal Microengine came about a few years after > the LSI-11 (1979 vs. February 1975). It was actually the third > "standard" use of that chipset, after the LSI-11 and the WD16 (very > nearly PDP-11 compatible, used in the Alpha Micro systems before they > switched to the 68K). Was it really?? Wow, how very embarrassing. I stand corrected. And to think that bit of misinformation has been rattling around in my head since the 11/73 (not /03) was a current machine! > The chipset was specifically designed for the LSI-11. It is optimized > for instruction decode and dispatch for the PDP-11 instruction set, and > is somewhat less efficient for implementing a bytecode instruction set > like UCSD P-code. I read somewhere that it's actually an 8-bit data path, which always seemed odd to me. Very interesting stuff. Is the chipset fully documented anywhere? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Feb 22 00:39:59 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:39:59 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > Zitat von Johnny Billquist : > > >On 2012-02-20 22:23, Holm Tiffe wrote: > >>Johnny Billquist wrote: > >> > >>>> By the way, yes, there is plenty of SCSI support in VMS. All of the > >>>> more > >>>> modern VAXstations and whatnot have only native SCSI, and no MSCP or > >>>> similar. > >>>> > >>>> Johnny > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>Jonny I have had a very similar problem on my experimental KA630 uVAXII > >>with the Emulex UC07/08 Controllers. I've tried to connect some IBM 4GB > >>Disk since they where quiet. That hasn't worked at all. The Emulex > >>Firmware was happy, but neighter the RT11 (with an 11/53 CPU) nor the > >>VAX could access the two logical disks I've created on that drive. > >>Must have something todo with the emulex firmware that I have on that > >>controller. > > > >Way too hard to figure out what the problem is with this information. > >Have you checked that the CSR really is correct, for instance? > > > >If the controller firmware itself sees the disks just fine, then the > >connection between the controller and the OS is one obvious point to > >look at. But there could be a bunch of issues. > > Just use a second drive for RT11. (GBytes for RT11???), so you don't > have to partition the drives. Probably that's the problem... That doesn't explains why NetBSD wasn't able to access it. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 22 00:56:43 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:56:43 -0800 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F4491AB.4030803@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > I read somewhere that it's actually an 8-bit data path, which always > seemed odd to me. It's the classic time/space tradeoff. The IBM 360 is a 32-bit architecture, but the 360/30 has 8-bit data paths, and the 360/40 has 16-bit data paths. A 16-bit data path cost a lot more money than an 8-bit data path, even when it was in 7 micron NMOS. It's only fairly recently that this has ceased to be true, because process geometries are now so small that less complex chips are pad-limited. > Very interesting stuff. Is the chipset fully documented anywhere? Bitsavers has the manual for the KUV11, which is the writeable control store option for the LSI-11. There must have been a tech manual from WD, but I've never seen it, and it would probably be a subset of the information in the KUV11 manual. There is a WD manual on the WD16, but it is at the macroinstruction level (PDP-11-like), and doesn't cover the microarchitecture. From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Feb 22 00:57:33 2012 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:57:33 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Holm Tiffe : >> Just use a second drive for RT11. (GBytes for RT11???), so you don't >> have to partition the drives. Probably that's the problem... > That doesn't explains why NetBSD wasn't able to access it. It doesn't ;-) But, which model of a VAX? Does it show up in "config"? (if it is a newer model) Does NetBSD "see" it at all as an device? You have problems reading/writing to it? From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 21 15:54:30 2012 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 22:54:30 +0100 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> > properly again! I believe this is the first time I've run into a >> faulty >> > CPU in a vintage computer (or peripheral). >> >> Wow, that's bizarre. 6502s don't fail very often. > > I can't remember if I'ev ever had to replace a 6502, but I've > certainly > had other CPUs fail. Z80, 8085, 6800, 8035 (fortunately ROMless), > some > 6803-seires microcontrolelr (again ROMless), and so on. > > My expeirence, as I've said beore is that while LSI ICs (including > microprocessors) are more reliable than the same circuit built from > TTL or > discretes, the LSI chips are less reliable than idividualt TTL ICs. > > -tony I once had an 8088 that behaved very strangely, it read the correct opcodes from memory but executed something completely different sometines. It turned out that the voltage between the +5V pin and the 0V pin was something like 4.65V. 0.1V too low a voltage was enough to make it execute some code correctly and other code completely wrong. Since then I always check the voltage at the chip's pins if strange things are happening. /Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 21 18:15:01 2012 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 16:15:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <1329869701.1449.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Angel M Alganza I'm afraid my electronic skills (which are close to zero) won't allow me to do that. C: It doesn't require any electronics skills at all, but simply stringing wires between pins. ?How did you hope to fix a monitor if that were the case anyway??? All I can suggest is perhaps examining contacts and whatnot, perhaps some sort of cleaning. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 22 01:30:04 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 02:30:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <1329869701.1449.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> <1329869701.1449.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201202220730.CAA05111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I'm afraid my electronic skills (which are close to zero) won't >> allow me to do that. > C: It doesn't require any electronics skills at all, but simply > stringing wires between pins. That involes soldering, or something operationally equivalent. That is quite definitely a skill. To people like me (and, likely, you), who've been doing it for decades, it may seem a bit like walking, something so obvious and natural it's barely even worth mentioning. But to someone who's new to it, it's well, like walking to a toddler: new, difficult, requiring concentration, and even when it's done usually not done all that well. Of course, the only way to get good at it is to practice. But it's not clear to me that ama@ wants to get good at it (as weird as that may seem to me, especially for someone in this hobby). ama, if you do want to get good at soldering, you'll need to practice, practice, and practice some more. This is not necessarily a good thing to practice on, but it's not all that bad a thing; a DB-25 is a relatively easy thing to solder to - not quite as easy as, say, soldering a 2W resistor to an octal vacuum tube socket, but certainly nowhere near as exacting as the QFP packages some people here deal wit hroutinely. And even if you completely ruin the connector somehow, it's a relatively cheap and plentiful thing; it's not like an ASIC from a classic machine that's made of pure unobtanium these days. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Feb 22 01:56:42 2012 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2012 23:56:42 -0800 Subject: Lisa 1s at University of Michigan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9E76C26340E94FCDB156B401D61281EC@WaynePC> Cool photo of a room full of Lisa 1s at the University of Michigan - taken March 4, 1984. http://tinyurl.com/6stp4hf From colineby at isallthat.com Wed Feb 22 02:03:23 2012 From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:03:23 +0000 Subject: What is a "workstation"? In-Reply-To: <201202202027.q1KKR4ZJ9502802@floodgap.com> References: <201202202027.q1KKR4ZJ9502802@floodgap.com> Message-ID: With the decline of the desktop, and rise of the content consumption appliances, I would argue the desktops remaining will be the new 'workstations'. The low end of desktop land is likely to be eroded away leaving the more powerful Windows and Mac systems dominant. And like historic workstations, the hardware is likely to be *relatively* high end. The OS platforms will be mildly diluted and skinned server software. And they will be targeted at specialist content creation. Seems analogous to the workstation of old. -- Colin Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > SGI) as "deskside workstations". And rightly so, I would say: they're > > specifically designed for workstation use. > > OK, > > WHAT IS A "WORKSTATION"? I dunno. I'd claim the true workstation is dead. Probably the last was the HP C8000. -- _____________________________________________ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to. ------- From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Feb 22 02:10:35 2012 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:10:35 -0000 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> Message-ID: DEC Sold the LSI-11 board, board set and in some cases the chip set, through its Components Product Line. There was at that time (1975 onwards) loads of documentation available for the LSI-11 as there was for any product destined for the OEM market place. The OEM side of DEC was huge. Yearly shipments of 100+ 11/34A's to one OEM customer in the UK were not unusual. At that time the magic number was 40%. Europe was 40% of the DEC world wide turnover and the UK was 40% of Europe. At one point DEC had at least ten (possibility as many as fifteen) regional offices in the UK alone. They were second only to IBM. Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire Sent: 22 February 2012 06:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Starting a PDP 11/03 On 02/22/2012 01:10 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Not the FIS, but the LSI-11 chipset itself, either four or five chips. >> It's the WD Pascal MicroEngine chipset, with its microcode rewritten >> to execute the PDP-11 instruction set. > > Other way around. The WD Pascal Microengine came about a few years after > the LSI-11 (1979 vs. February 1975). It was actually the third > "standard" use of that chipset, after the LSI-11 and the WD16 (very > nearly PDP-11 compatible, used in the Alpha Micro systems before they > switched to the 68K). Was it really?? Wow, how very embarrassing. I stand corrected. And to think that bit of misinformation has been rattling around in my head since the 11/73 (not /03) was a current machine! > The chipset was specifically designed for the LSI-11. It is optimized > for instruction decode and dispatch for the PDP-11 instruction set, and > is somewhat less efficient for implementing a bytecode instruction set > like UCSD P-code. I read somewhere that it's actually an 8-bit data path, which always seemed odd to me. Very interesting stuff. Is the chipset fully documented anywhere? -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ama at ugr.es Wed Feb 22 03:04:24 2012 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:04:24 +0100 Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <201202220730.CAA05111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> <1329869701.1449.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <201202220730.CAA05111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120222090424.GE26318@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 02:30:04AM -0500, Mouse wrote: > Of course, the only way to get good at it is to > practice. But it's not clear to me that ama@ > wants to get good at it (as weird as that may > seem to me, especially for someone in this > hobby). I'd love to get good at it, but the point is that currently I'm not. I envy guys like you or > ama, if you do want to get good at soldering, > you'll need to practice, practice, and practice > some more. I might do that at some point, but what I'd need now is to find out is if it's worth to keep those two great monitors and try to fix them or if I should just lose any hope and throw them away. :) That's the reason why I was (am) asking is if anybody might know what might have happened to them and how to check it out and, if possible, to fix them. I'm hopping whatever it might be doesn't force me to go as "low tech" as Chris suggested, because unfortunately I can't do it at this moment. I hope I don't come across as rude or ungrateful. I really appreciate all the information and efforts to help me out saving those lovely monitors. I'm just saying I don't have any electronic skills, but I can get some help with them once I find out what the problem is. Thank you. Angel -- Angel Martin Alganza Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de Granada Full contact data at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ PGP Public key at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 22 03:38:13 2012 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:38:13 +1300 Subject: Lisa 1s at University of Michigan In-Reply-To: <9E76C26340E94FCDB156B401D61281EC@WaynePC> References: <9E76C26340E94FCDB156B401D61281EC@WaynePC> Message-ID: Great photo. I wonder what happened to them all. Terry (Tez) On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Wayne Smith wrote: > Cool photo of a room full of Lisa 1s at the University of Michigan - > taken March 4, 1984. http://tinyurl.com/6stp4hf > > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 22 03:48:30 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 04:48:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <20120222090424.GE26318@darwin.ugr.es> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> <1329869701.1449.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <201202220730.CAA05111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120222090424.GE26318@darwin.ugr.es> Message-ID: <201202220948.EAA07438@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> But it's not clear to me that ama@ wants to get good at [soldering] > I'd love to get good at it, but the point is that currently I'm not. Okay. Depending on your degree of general dexterity, how good you are with your hands in general, you may or may not find yourself capable of dealing with soldering up a serial cable if you try. (Unless you have already tried and know you're bad at it, of course.) > I envy guys like you or [...] Heh. I'm sure there are plenty of things I would envy you for if I knew about them. (Actually, there quite possibly is one I know about: it is likely that English is not your native language, in which case I envy you your competence in a second language. Your English is much better than my French, French being my second-best language.) >> ama, if you do want to get good at soldering, you'll need to >> practice, practice, and practice some more. > I might do that at some point, but what I'd need now is to find out > is if it's worth to keep those two great monitors and try to fix them > or if I should just lose any hope and throw them away. :) Ah, I was thinking the soldering discussion was about making a console cable to connect the U10 to your...Ampex, was it? Fixing a monitor...tony may shudder, but I mostly haven't even bothered trying. The one time I fixed one was a while ago when a flat-screen failed due, apparently, to bad electrolytic capacitors; they were bulging visibly, so I replaced them and it's worked fine ever since. Of course, the monitors that I "mostly haven't even bothered trying" to fix have not been nearly as nice as your GDM-20D10s. > I hope I don't come across as rude or ungrateful. You don't. Well, not to me, at least. You're asking intelligent questions - elementary questions, many of them, but at your present level of knowledge that's to be expected. And you appear to be learning from the responses you get. As far as I am concerned, this adds up to you quite definitely *not* being part of the problem. > I really appreciate all the information and efforts to help me out > saving those lovely monitors. I'm just saying I don't have any > electronic skills, but I can get some help with them once I find out > what the problem is. Well, the symptom is sufficiently vague that I, at least, can't say much useful; there are a lot of possible causes for the symptom you're seeing, from a blown fuse to a fried pwoer supply to an onboard ASIC that handles the pwoer switch being fried to half a dozen other things. Without enough skills and tools to at least take them apart and start making diagnostic measurements, I'm not sure what I can suggest. About the only hopes I can hold out are: (1) if there is someone physically nearby who *does* have the necessary skills and/or tools, you may be able to collaboratively deal with them and learn in the process; (2) if you have the storage space, you might just shelve them and undertake to learn enough to be able to deal with them in, say, a month, a year, however long it takes you; (3) the problem might be something as simple as a blown fuse or a connector come loose (but without the expertise to identify possible causes and test for them, I'm not sure this is much help). I'd love to be the "someone" in case (1), but that's not really practical unless you're near Ottawa or Montreal, which seems unlikely. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ama at ugr.es Wed Feb 22 05:50:18 2012 From: ama at ugr.es (Angel M Alganza) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:50:18 +0100 Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <201202220948.EAA07438@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20120219105338.GD19837@darwin.ugr.es> <1329707144.66076.YahooMailNeo@web164504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <20120220100621.GC7749@darwin.ugr.es> <1329869701.1449.YahooMailNeo@web164505.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <201202220730.CAA05111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20120222090424.GE26318@darwin.ugr.es> <201202220948.EAA07438@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120222115018.GF26318@darwin.ugr.es> On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 04:48:30AM -0500, Mouse wrote: > Okay. Depending on your degree of general > dexterity, how good you are with your hands in > general, you may or may not find yourself Well, not very good, I'm afraid, since I have an unsteady hand. I guess that's not an excuse, and as you said it's a matter of practise. But to be honest, I haven't been interested in electronics before and I have been lazy to try, since I know someone who I usually ask to do the soldering for me (I do other kind things for him in exchange). > it is likely that English is not your native > language, in which case I envy you your > competence in a second language. Your English > is much better than my French, French being my > second-best language.) Oh, thank you. Indeed English isn't my native language, and unfortunately I didn't studied it at School or High School, but I learnt it as an adult when I needed it. I like languages, though, and I spend a good deal of time in perfecting my English (perhaps I should use some of it to get some electronics skills, hehe). > Ah, I was thinking the soldering discussion was > about making a console cable to connect the U10 > to your...Ampex, was it? Well yes, sorry. I started two different threads, actually I only started this one about the monitors, and followed on a different one about recovering old Sun servers which derived to using terminals with them. Somewhere along the discussion, someone (sorry, I can't remember whom it was) said that the Sun box would redirect to the serial console if it didn't find a keyboard attached to it, and then I brought up the Ampex problem I'm trying to solve too. Sorry about the mess I'm making, hehe. > Fixing a monitor...tony may shudder, but I LOL. I'm sure he will. By the way, Tony is one of the guys a envy the most. I really enjoy reading hist posts about fixing and using cool pieces of equipment. I think he's also a kind of "walking encyclopedia". :-) > Of course, the monitors that I "mostly haven't > even bothered trying" to fix have not been > nearly as nice as your GDM-20D10s. They are very cool, yes. I've got another Sun monitors which I'm using at the moment, but they aren't even close to the GDM-20D10s. > asking intelligent questions - elementary > questions, many of them, but at your present > level of knowledge that's to be expected. And Thank you, that's a relieve. As I said before, I haven't been into fixing hardware. I'm usually more interested into recovering it (mainly Sun), cleaning it, and making it work, usually with either OpenBSD or Debian GNU/Linux. But it'd be said to not be able to recover those monitors. > you appear to be learning from the responses you That's what I enjoy the most of this (and other) lists. Even when I don't contribute a lot, I read them and follow some discussions with interest. > Well, the symptom is sufficiently vague that I, > at least, can't say much useful; there are a lot > of possible causes for the symptom you're > seeing, from a blown fuse to a fried pwoer You're totally right. I was hopping somebody would jump in and say he's had the same problem and there was something like a fuse or something I could very easily change myself... Hoping is cheap, isn't it? :D > [Bunch of great suggestions deleted...] > I'd love to be the "someone" in case (1), but > that's not really practical unless you're near > Ottawa or Montreal, which seems unlikely. It'd be great if that was the case. Or if I was in London and I could bother Tony with that in person, LOL. But I'm afraid it isn't going to be possible, since I'm in the south of Spain. :-) One of your suggestions was for me to hold onto the monitors until I can fix them or get them fixed for me, and that's the only think I'm doing for the moment, apart from troubling you guys with it and my incompetence. :D Angel -- Angel Martin Alganza Departamento de Genetica, Universidad de Granada Full contact data at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ PGP Public key at http://www.ugr.es/~ama/ama-pgp-key ------------------------------------------------------ () ASCII Ribbon Campaign - http://www.asciiribbon.org/ /\ Against all HTML e-mail and proprietary attachments Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments http://linux.sgms-centre.com/advocacy/no-ms-office.php From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 06:48:25 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 06:48:25 -0600 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120222071546.8owmq2hntw4ocww4@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <4F442D28.2070300@gmail.com> <20120222071546.8owmq2hntw4ocww4@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <4F44E419.8040801@gmail.com> On 02/22/2012 12:15 AM, emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > Zitat von Jules Richardson : > >> I'm not sure if the "phone home" was an SGI feature, or >> something that they'd cooked up themselves. It seemed like a useful >> feature for any kind of environment where uptime was crucial. > > Computers with build in diagnosis? > HAL? > ;-) :-) It's the only time I've personally seen the "call back to base and order new parts" feature - plenty of setups where the machine would inform local admins of potential faults so they could decide what to do, of course, but not taking it that extra step. cheers J. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 22 09:42:57 2012 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 10:42:57 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F450D01.1030700@compsys.to> >>emu at e-bbes.com wrote: >>Just use a second drive for RT11. (GBytes for RT11???), so you don't >>have to partition the drives. Probably that's the problem... >> I am not sure if the attribution is correct. V05.05 of RT-11 supports enhanced device drivers. The RT-11 MSCP device driver, DU(X).SYS is able to simultaneously access up to 64 partitions of 32 MB each. That works out to 2 GBytes total. In addition, each partition number can be from 0 to 255 which supports a total coverage of 8 GBytes. So the limitation is 64 partitions at a time out of a total of 256 partitions if the drive is physically that large. While current disk drives for a PC are over 2 TBytes, I agree that having even 1 GByte for RT-11 (32 partitions) is an enormous amount of storage. However, I have found that keeping LST files instead of hard copy does require about a GByte and is very handy to have around. My real DEC PDP-11/83 has 3 * 600 MB Hitachi EDSI disk drives (or 20 RT-11 partitions each) with the second and third drives serving as identical backups. When I run under E11, such disk space is trivial to dedicate to the RT-11 files when the hard drive is 130 GBytes. When I upgrade to Windows XP, I expect the 3 hard drives will be 2 TBytes each, so there will be even more storage available. Jerome Fine From markw at anomalous.net Wed Feb 22 09:11:38 2012 From: markw at anomalous.net (Mark L. Weindling) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 09:11:38 -0600 Subject: Lisa 1s at University of Michigan In-Reply-To: References: <9E76C26340E94FCDB156B401D61281EC@WaynePC> Message-ID: <3431F2AB-1814-4491-B2A4-DA153DE03D68@anomalous.net> Actually, they went back to Apple. I'm sure that there were some holdouts, but almost all of the Lisa-1s were upgraded to Lisa-2s and then to Mac XLs, after which they fell by the wayside. By 1988 it was nearly impossible to find a Lisa on campus. UofM's engineering labs, of which this was one, focused primarily on Apollo workstations during this period, starting with DN-330s and through the DN-4500s a few years later. While there were PCs and Macs, they were considered underpowered for the needs of the college, which was doing simulations and circuit analysis. The software and hardware of the "consumer" equipment weren't up to their requirements. -Mark On Feb 22, 2012, at 3:38 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Great photo. > > I wonder what happened to them all. > > Terry (Tez) > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Wayne Smith wrote: > >> Cool photo of a room full of Lisa 1s at the University of Michigan - >> taken March 4, 1984. http://tinyurl.com/6stp4hf From lproven at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 10:11:18 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 16:11:18 +0000 Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: <20120221191831.U13764@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F3F001B.2000902@decodesystems.com> <20120221191831.U13764@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 22 February 2012 03:19, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On 20 February 2012 20:41, Tony Duell wrote: >> > I needed such a able about 190years ago >> > On Wed, 22 Feb 2012, Liam Proven wrote: >> You've been at this game longer than I realised! > > But, in those days, onwe merely needed "able". ?Cables were unnecessary. Well, yes, of course! C wasn't invented until 1969 at Bell Labs, as ani fule kno. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Feb 22 10:38:32 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 17:38:32 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <20120222163832.GB44090@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> emu at e-bbes.com wrote: > Zitat von Holm Tiffe : > > >>Just use a second drive for RT11. (GBytes for RT11???), so you don't > >>have to partition the drives. Probably that's the problem... > >That doesn't explains why NetBSD wasn't able to access it. > > It doesn't ;-) > But, which model of a VAX? Does it show up in "config"? > (if it is a newer model) Old. This is no VAX at all, this is an H9278 Packplane, An KA630-A V1.3, an Emulex UC07/08m an MS630B with 4MB an NS638 8MB board, an DELQA, an PSU from some Compaq Server with a home made Front Paneel, a DELQA. > > Does NetBSD "see" it at all as an device? You have problems > reading/writing to it? After formatting with the Emulex Frimware I couldn't lable or access it. Don't ask me now what The error was was exactly..., something 'like no such device' or 'device not ready' or so.. Even with the 2GB Disk I had to init the 2 logical disks (made with the Emulex firmware) with MDUP.MU /z from RT11 (with an 11/53 CPU) before I could write a disklable with the VAX CPU to them. I've netbooted that NetBSD (1.5.3). Same happened with Quasijarus BSD. I don't tried other OSes so far, don't know anything about VMS so I leaved this alone as long as the hardware wasn't know to be good.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 22 10:50:22 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 08:50:22 -0800 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F4491AB.4030803@brouhaha.com> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> <4F4491AB.4030803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F451CCE.3000101@bitsavers.org> On 2/21/12 10:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >>There must have been a tech manual from WD, but I've never seen it, and it would probably be a > subset of the information in the KUV11 manual. > I have the three volume WD manual set in the scan queue. I'll see if I can get them done today. From ray at arachelian.com Wed Feb 22 10:55:06 2012 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:55:06 -0500 Subject: Lisa 1s at University of Michigan In-Reply-To: <3431F2AB-1814-4491-B2A4-DA153DE03D68@anomalous.net> References: <9E76C26340E94FCDB156B401D61281EC@WaynePC> <3431F2AB-1814-4491-B2A4-DA153DE03D68@anomalous.net> Message-ID: <4F451DEA.9080101@arachelian.com> On 02/22/2012 10:11 AM, Mark L. Weindling wrote: > Actually, they went back to Apple. I'm sure that there were some holdouts, but almost all of the Lisa-1s were upgraded to Lisa-2s and then to Mac XLs, after which they fell by the wayside. By 1988 it was nearly impossible to find a Lisa on campus. > > UofM's engineering labs, of which this was one, focused primarily on Apollo workstations during this period, starting with DN-330s and through the DN-4500s a few years later. While there were PCs and Macs, they were considered underpowered for the needs of the college, which was doing simulations and circuit analysis. The software and hardware of the "consumer" equipment weren't up to their requirements. Wonder if they wrote any custom Lisa apps to do simulations or circuit stuff, would love it if that was available. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 22 13:26:39 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 14:26:39 -0500 Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> References: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> On 02/21/2012 03:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Ah, okay. Yes, Solbourne certainly did go farther with it in those days. >> >> Yes. I had a six-processor Solbourne system for awhile. I never >> could get it running because I didn't have OS media. It was a very >> well-built piece of hardware! > > I have a Solbourne S3000 with the really hot (well, warm, anyway) orange > plasma built-in display and the case. It's a neat system. In storage I have > a couple pizza-box S4x00s and there's a big 5/xxx something around there > somewhere too. But I love the S3000, especially because it's luggable, and > the whole look is more wacky than the SPARCstation voyager. More wacky than a Voyager? That's saying something! Pics? Mine was a 5/600, a deskside box somewhat resemblant of an AlphaServer 2100 but not quite as deep. > I should have OS/MP 4.1C around here somewhere. I'd love a copy of that, if you can manage it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 22 13:54:09 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:54:09 -0800 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F451CCE.3000101@bitsavers.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15E@meow.catcorner.org> <4F4434BE.8040807@neurotica.com> <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B1B15F@meow.catcorner.org> <4F443E3E.5090105@neurotica.com> <4F4486D2.4010808@brouhaha.com> <4F448A4A.90600@neurotica.com> <4F4491AB.4030803@brouhaha.com> <4F451CCE.3000101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F4547E1.90001@bitsavers.org> On 2/22/12 8:50 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/21/12 10:56 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> There must have been a tech manual from WD, but I've never seen it, and it would probably be a >> subset of the information in the KUV11 manual. >> > > I have the three volume WD manual set in the scan queue. I'll see if I can get them done today. > I was mistaken, the three manuals were for the GI CP-1600 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 22 13:56:16 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 11:56:16 -0800 Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> References: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F454860.8070207@bitsavers.org> On 2/22/12 11:26 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: >> I should have OS/MP 4.1C around here somewhere. > > I'd love a copy of that, if you can manage it. > I have several revisions on CD, from the days when wiretap.spies.com was running on a fairly large Solbourne. From fading memory, they got rid of the big single kernel lock that the early SMP SunOS depended upon. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Feb 22 14:08:31 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:08:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <20120222163832.GB44090@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222163832.GB44090@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <201202222008.PAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > This is no VAX at all, this is an H9278 Packplane, An KA630-A V1.3, I'm sure some would disagree, but I would say that if the CPU is a KA630, it's a VAX. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 22 14:24:10 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:24:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 22, 12 02:26:39 pm" Message-ID: <201202222024.q1MKOAiY8913038@floodgap.com> > > I have a Solbourne S3000 with the really hot (well, warm, anyway) orange > > plasma built-in display and the case. It's a neat system. In storage I have > > a couple pizza-box S4x00s and there's a big 5/xxx something around there > > somewhere too. But I love the S3000, especially because it's luggable, and > > the whole look is more wacky than the SPARCstation voyager. > > More wacky than a Voyager? That's saying something! Pics? http://www.floodgap.com/iv/715 http://www.floodgap.com/iv/716 This is a better picture of the profile: http://danjuliodesigns.com/resume/page12.html > > I should have OS/MP 4.1C around here somewhere. > > I'd love a copy of that, if you can manage it. I think it's packed in with one of the pizza boxes. I'll put it up on the Gopher server when I dig it out. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Greek tailor shop: "Euripedes?" "Yes -- Eumenides?" ------------------------ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 22 14:24:41 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:24:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F454860.8070207@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Feb 22, 12 11:56:16 am" Message-ID: <201202222024.q1MKOfYw5898388@floodgap.com> > I have several revisions on CD, from the days when wiretap.spies.com was > running on a fairly large Solbourne. What versions? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I [still] adore my Commodore 64" ------------------------------------------ From fraveydank at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 14:41:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:41:16 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <201202222008.PAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222163832.GB44090@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <201202222008.PAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <736A797C-D6FE-4603-BAF5-759EAD0E1368@gmail.com> On Feb 22, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Mouse wrote: >> This is no VAX at all, this is an H9278 Packplane, An KA630-A V1.3, > > I'm sure some would disagree, but I would say that if the CPU is a > KA630, it's a VAX. It's a VAX, it just doesn't have a number. I'm OK calling my KDF-11 machine a PDP-11/23, mostly because not much else ran that CPU, but I suppose "11/23 equivalent" is probably a lot closer. - Dave From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 22 14:52:51 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:52:51 -0500 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <736A797C-D6FE-4603-BAF5-759EAD0E1368@gmail.com> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222163832.GB44090@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <201202222008.PAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <736A797C-D6FE-4603-BAF5-759EAD0E1368@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F4555A3.4090205@neurotica.com> On 02/22/2012 03:41 PM, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 22, 2012, at 3:08 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> This is no VAX at all, this is an H9278 Packplane, An KA630-A V1.3, >> >> I'm sure some would disagree, but I would say that if the CPU is a >> KA630, it's a VAX. > > It's a VAX, it just doesn't have a number. I'm OK calling my KDF-11 > machine a PDP-11/23, mostly because not much else ran that CPU, but > I suppose "11/23 equivalent" is probably a lot closer. Nah, I'd say it's quite effectively a MicroVAX-II. Stick a VCB01 or VCB02 in it and it'll be a VAXstation-II. No problem. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 22 14:56:55 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:56:55 -0500 Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <201202222024.q1MKOAiY8913038@floodgap.com> References: <201202222024.q1MKOAiY8913038@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4F455697.7000500@neurotica.com> On 02/22/2012 03:24 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I have a Solbourne S3000 with the really hot (well, warm, anyway) orange >>> plasma built-in display and the case. It's a neat system. In storage I have >>> a couple pizza-box S4x00s and there's a big 5/xxx something around there >>> somewhere too. But I love the S3000, especially because it's luggable, and >>> the whole look is more wacky than the SPARCstation voyager. >> >> More wacky than a Voyager? That's saying something! Pics? > > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/715 > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/716 > > This is a better picture of the profile: > > http://danjuliodesigns.com/resume/page12.html Very nice! I love that display. What's its resolution, standard Sun 1152x900? >>> I should have OS/MP 4.1C around here somewhere. >> >> I'd love a copy of that, if you can manage it. > > I think it's packed in with one of the pizza boxes. I'll put it up on the > Gopher server when I dig it out. Cool. Now if I ever run across one again, I'll grab it, because I'll be able to get it running. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 22 14:57:36 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 15:57:36 -0500 Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F454860.8070207@bitsavers.org> References: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> <4F454860.8070207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F4556C0.4010700@neurotica.com> On 02/22/2012 02:56 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/22/12 11:26 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I should have OS/MP 4.1C around here somewhere. >> >> I'd love a copy of that, if you can manage it. >> > > I have several revisions on CD, from the days when wiretap.spies.com was > running on a fairly > large Solbourne. I'd love images of those if you can find the time. > From fading memory, they got rid of the big single > kernel lock that the early > SMP SunOS depended upon. It was a big bottleneck in systems with lots of processes doing I/O. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 15:12:09 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:12:09 -0800 Subject: Starting a PDP 11/03 In-Reply-To: <4F4547E1.90001@bitsavers.org> References: <6A3EF10803A46549B3E6AF9AED8B99B15BD8@meow.catcorner.org>, <4F451CCE.3000101@bitsavers.org>, <4F4547E1.90001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F44E9A9.16668.F3DF27@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2012 at 11:54, Al Kossow wrote: > I was mistaken, the three manuals were for the GI CP-1600 If those weren't in your work queue, by all means please put them there--the CP1600 is one of my favorite "most ignored" early 16-bit microprocessors. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 22 15:12:44 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:12:44 -0800 Subject: Lisa 1s at University of Michigan In-Reply-To: References: <9E76C26340E94FCDB156B401D61281EC@WaynePC> Message-ID: <4F455A4C.30701@brouhaha.com> Terry Stewart wrote: > I wonder what happened to them all. I have no idea, yet can say with high confidence: They got upgraded to the Lisa 2 (free upgrade), then got the screen mod to run as a Macintosh XL, then got scrapped. The reason I can say that with high confidence is that's basically what happened to all Lisa 1 systems. Few owners didn't do the upgrades as they became available, and few kept the machines much beyond 1987. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 22 15:35:20 2012 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 13:35:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F455697.7000500@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 22, 12 03:56:55 pm" Message-ID: <201202222135.q1MLZKWs9634042@floodgap.com> > > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/715 > > http://www.floodgap.com/iv/716 > > > > This is a better picture of the profile: > > > > http://danjuliodesigns.com/resume/page12.html > > Very nice! I love that display. What's its resolution, standard Sun > 1152x900? I believe so. The sick SGI Indy is occupying the bay where I plan to put it. It's in its zipper case in the closet waiting for a slot on the workbench. The display is very crisp and you just don't see those kinds of garish gas plasma displays anymore. :) > > I think it's packed in with one of the pizza boxes. I'll put it up on the > > Gopher server when I dig it out. > > Cool. Now if I ever run across one again, I'll grab it, because I'll > be able to get it running. :-) Dworkin helped me out with my first S4100 which I needed to root. It booted from my little IIci running NetBSD with a restore kernel image. Unfortunately, that first box eventually let the magic smoke out of its hard disk, so the only one I have in fully operational order is the S3000. I have another pizza box as a donor unit, but I haven't merged the two, and the S3000 is much more convenient with its built-in display. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Math according to Pentium: 2 / 2 = 1.037587439439485486372112039523781385 ... From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Feb 22 15:44:18 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:44:18 +0100 Subject: VAX for running old version of VMS In-Reply-To: <201202222008.PAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F42E1FC.3030000@softjar.se> <20120221082330.i129nkm5ckccwggw@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222063959.GB41811@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120222075733.p3vbs5yfk8g8okc0@webmail.opentransfer.com> <20120222163832.GB44090@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <201202222008.PAA14554@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20120222214418.GA45568@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Mouse wrote: > > This is no VAX at all, this is an H9278 Packplane, An KA630-A V1.3, > > I'm sure some would disagree, but I would say that if the CPU is a > KA630, it's a VAX. > I think you know what I meant. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 15:18:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:18:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <201202220730.CAA05111@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Feb 22, 12 02:30:04 am Message-ID: > > >> I'm afraid my electronic skills (which are close to zero) won't > >> allow me to do that. > > C: It doesn't require any electronics skills at all, but simply > > stringing wires between pins. > > That involes soldering, or something operationally equivalent. That is > quite definitely a skill. To people like me (and, likely, you), who've To me there are 2 diffent sets of skills that might be required to repair this monitor : The first I would class as 'mechanical' skills. Being able to take it apart and put it back together, soldering/desoldering so as to be able ot repalce the faulty component(s), make up cables, etc. The second are what I would term the 'eelctronic' skills. Actually fidnig nthe faulty component. Contrary to popualr belief (not on this list :-)), there is no magic box you can plug into the defective monitor (or wahtever) and which will tell you 'rpelace the 10uF capacitor at location C17' or whatever. What you have to do -- and what takes considerable knowledge and practice soemtiems -- is to measure votlages and signals, see how they differe fro mwhat you'd expect (or what is given in the service manual if you have it), then make more tests based on those reuslts to further isolate the problem and so on. > been doing it for decades, it may seem a bit like walking, something so > obvious and natural it's barely even worth mentioning. But to someone > who's new to it, it's well, like walking to a toddler: new, difficult, > requiring concentration, and even when it's done usually not done all > that well. > > Of course, the only way to get good at it is to practice. But it's not > clear to me that ama@ wants to get good at it (as weird as that may > seem to me, especially for someone in this hobby). I can understand that people who wish to run the old software under emulation on new machines probably won't have to get involved in hardware repairs. But if you want to run the vintage machines, you almost certainly will. Old hardware does fail (although not as often as you might expect), and there are very few people who repair it commercially (at least not at prices you could afford :-)). So IMHO if you want to run the old machines they you will be forced into learnign how to trace faults and repair them. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing if you enjoy it (some do, some don't...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 14:54:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:54:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: from "jonas@otter.se" at Feb 21, 12 10:54:30 pm Message-ID: > I once had an 8088 that behaved very strangely, it read the correct > opcodes from memory but executed something completely different > sometines. It turned out that the voltage between the +5V pin and the 0V > pin was something like 4.65V. 0.1V too low a voltage was enough to make > it execute some code correctly and other code completely wrong. Since > then I always check the voltage at the chip's pins if strange things are > happening. Very wise... My PDP11/45 would run for about 30 minutes and then crash in really odd ways (odten asserting a bus grant for no good reason, things like that). I finally traced it to the fact that the +5V lien to the CPU was sitting at 4.3V. Sorting out (and adjusting) the appropriate 'brick' in the PSU fixed all the problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 15:00:38 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:00:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 22, 12 00:17:51 am Message-ID: > > On 20 February 2012 20:41, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I needed such a able about 190years ago > > You've been at this game longer than I realised! Err, yes... Since before the days of Babbage by the looks of things... [It _should_ have been ... 10 yeas ago ... I needed the cable to link an 8250LP to a P500] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 15:04:10 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:04:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wanted: Commodore CBM disk drive cable In-Reply-To: <20120221191831.U13764@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 21, 12 07:19:54 pm Message-ID: > But, in those days, onwe merely needed "able". Cables were unnecessary. Surely you don't think that C was around 190 years ago :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 15:31:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:31:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <20120222090424.GE26318@darwin.ugr.es> from "Angel M Alganza" at Feb 22, 12 10:04:24 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, Feb 22, 2012 at 02:30:04AM -0500, > Mouse wrote: > > > Of course, the only way to get good at it is to > > practice. But it's not clear to me that ama@ > > wants to get good at it (as weird as that may > > seem to me, especially for someone in this > > hobby). > > I'd love to get good at it, but the point is that > currently I'm not. I envy guys like you or The only way to learn is to 'have a go'. Yes, you need to learn some electronics from books, but in the end you have to start tryign to figure things out for yourself, on the actual hardware. I don;t want ot put you off, but I've been repariing classic comptuers for nearly 30 years now (started doing it seriously in 1986), and I am certainly still learning. In fact I don;t thinkyou ever stop learning on soemthing like this. I am not convioncd a mnoitor, particularly one with what sounds to me like a power uspply fault, is the easiest thing to learn on, but then again I wou;dn't pick the PDP11./45 as the fisrt minicomputer to get going, but it's the one I learnt CPU repair on. Sometimes you are forced to work on thigns that wouldn't bee the first choice :-) There may well eb a service manual availabe for this monitor, Sony were pretty good about producing them. I ahve no idea where you'd get it from, and it'll be written for service technicians, it won't be a 'handholding manual'. Most likely it'll be the schematics, PCB layouts, parts lists and n ot a lot more. Votlags nd waveforms may be given on the schematcs/ > now is to find out is if it's worth to keep those > two great monitors and try to fix them or if I > should just lose any hope and throw them away. :) > That's the reason why I was (am) asking is if > anybody might know what might have happened to > them and how to check it out and, if possible, to I could say something like : " I am guessing there's no sign of life at all when you turn them on (no power light, the CRT heaters don't glow, etc). In which case this sounds like a power supply problem. I am going to guess it's a switch-mode PSU. Check the mains fuse and see if it's blackened (indicating a catastrophic failure of the PSU) If not, elimineate the 'silly fault' by making sure the on-off switch cloeses correctly. then suspect the startup resistor, a high vlaue reisstor from the positive side of the mains smoothing capacitor to the chopper drive circuitry." The problem is that while that's what I would do, I doubt you'd be able to find thos componetns without more information and woulnd't know how to trest them, or repalce them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 22 15:53:41 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:53:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sun GDM-20D10 monitors In-Reply-To: <20120222115018.GF26318@darwin.ugr.es> from "Angel M Alganza" at Feb 22, 12 12:50:18 pm Message-ID: > Well, not very good, I'm afraid, since I have an > unsteady hand. I guess that's not an excuse, and > as you said it's a matter of practise. But to be > honest, I haven't been interested in electronics > before and I have been lazy to try, since I know > someone who I usually ask to do the soldering for > me (I do other kind things for him in exchange). Can you ask this friend to kelp you wit hte monitors? > > it is likely that English is not your native > > language, in which case I envy you your > > competence in a second language. Your English > > is much better than my French, French being my > > second-best language.) > > Oh, thank you. Indeed English isn't my native Youre English is very good. I am pretty useles at (human) languages, actually. > language, and unfortunately I didn't studied it at > School or High School, but I learnt it as an adult > when I needed it. I like languages, though, and I > spend a good deal of time in perfecting my English > (perhaps I should use some of it to get some > electronics skills, hehe). You are clearly capable of learnign things if yoy are interested in doing so. I would suggest that if you want to learn electronic fualtfinding nad repair skills that you would eb able to do that, but you might not want to. Ulitmately it is up to you, it's your device and your time. Personally I love puzzles and I love fixing things. So I enjoy figuring out how somethign should work so I can repair it. I enjoy learnign new skills too (I taught myself -- correction 'am teaching myself', becuase it's a never-ending process -- how to use an engineer's lathe so I could make meachanical parts for classic computers, etc. But as I said, that's me, you are diffetent. What you enjou is probably not what I enjoy,. So it is up to you. If you want to have a go, we can help you along the way. If you don't, that's fine too. [...] > > Fixing a monitor...tony may shudder, but I > > LOL. I'm sure he will. By the way, Tony is one > of the guys a envy the most. I really enjoy THank you.... All I can say is that you've not experienced one of my flamefests yet :-) > reading hist posts about fixing and using cool > pieces of equipment. I think he's also a kind of > "walking encyclopedia". :-) Hmmmm.. You do relaise I have plenty of useful books alongside me here :-). One other thing. I've been doing this, as I said, for newarly 30 years. In that time I've meade a lot of mistakes nad had to put them right. I've put porjects aside, only to come back to them months or years later when I've learnt a new skill, got soem more information, and so on. And of course I still make mistakes If you never make a mistake, it means you're not doing anything. > It'd be great if that was the case. Or if I was > in London and I could bother Tony with that in Or turn up with it at a London HPCC meeting.... Stranger things have happened :-) _If_ I had the service manual for this monitor -- and I don't -- I might be able to suggest smoe mroe explicit tests (of the type 'Unplug connctor J3 from the PSU board and check for continuity between pins 1 and 3 and then between pins 2 nd 4 with the power swiutch turned on. If that's OK, then chck resisotr R17 (should be 100k) on the PSU board'. Note : Those are all made up tests, they do not apply to your monitor). But I don;t haev that manual. If I had the monitor in front of me, I might be able ot wuickly figure out some liklely things to test, but again I don't. Hmm.... -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 16:19:30 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:19:30 -0000 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <24B2BFDDA0334EA5BC5B761F6AE6625E@G4UGMT41> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 22 February 2012 20:55 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion > > > > I once had an 8088 that behaved very strangely, it read the correct > > opcodes from memory but executed something completely different > > sometines. It turned out that the voltage between the +5V > pin and the 0V > > pin was something like 4.65V. 0.1V too low a voltage was > enough to make > > it execute some code correctly and other code completely > wrong. Since > > then I always check the voltage at the chip's pins if > strange things are > > happening. > > > Very wise... > > My PDP11/45 would run for about 30 minutes and then crash in > really odd > ways (odten asserting a bus grant for no good reason, things > like that). > I finally traced it to the fact that the +5V lien to the CPU > was sitting > at 4.3V. Sorting out (and adjusting) the appropriate 'brick' > in the PSU > fixed all the problems. > > -tony > The very first 6800 I bought came with a failing carry between the two bytes of the 16-bit registers. Very disconcerting as it was the first micro I had ever made. However the supplier replaced it no questions asked... Dave Wade G4UGM Illegitimi Non Carborundum From evan at snarc.net Wed Feb 22 17:07:46 2012 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 18:07:46 -0500 Subject: Bil Herd / was Re: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <24B2BFDDA0334EA5BC5B761F6AE6625E@G4UGMT41> References: <24B2BFDDA0334EA5BC5B761F6AE6625E@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: <4F457542.9090101@snarc.net> Speaking of Commodore repair ... today we announced that not only is Commodore engineer Bil Herd lecturing at VCF East 8.0, now he's also agreed to teach our Commodore repair/maintenance class. So it's like learning to work on your Model T .... as taught by Henry Ford. Or something like that. :) http://www.vintage.org/2012/east/session.php#158 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 22 19:49:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 20:49:18 -0500 Subject: RL01/RL02 unit select plugs Message-ID: <4F459B1E.40401@neurotica.com> Can anyone here (preferably in the US) spare an RL01/02 unit select plug for unit "2"? I thought I had one but I can't find it. I can swap a "0" if desired. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Wed Feb 22 21:58:09 2012 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 04:58:09 +0100 Subject: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today Message-ID: A nice and illustrated article : http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_ancient_computers_in_use_today.html -- Stephane FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez FreeDonne. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 22 23:02:56 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:02:56 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs Message-ID: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com> http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/radio_shack/trs80_model_ii/trs80m2boot.zip From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 23:08:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:08:03 -0800 Subject: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com> The comments make me sad. To see what the young 'uns say, you'd think it was maybe a matter of a weel or so to replace an old process control computer running a nuclear power plant with an iPad. Or a CNC system running an 84 inch spinning lathe built in 1981. ...or (pick your "working" application). To these people, everthing is an iPad, XBox, iPhone or Web server, I guess. --Chuck On 23 Feb 2012 at 4:58, St?phane Tsacas wrote: > A nice and illustrated article : > http://www.pcworld.com/article/249951/if_it_aint_broke_dont_fix_it_anc > ient_computers_in_use_today.html > > > -- > Stephane > FreeDonne Join FreeDonne - Rejoignez > FreeDonne. > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 22 23:19:25 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:19:25 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2012 at 21:02, Eric Smith wrote: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/radio_shack/trs80_model_i > i/trs80m2boot.zip Is this basically the same content as: http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80m2/m2_cpu_roms.zip --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 22 23:24:11 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 21:24:11 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com> <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F45CD7B.40705@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Is this basically the same content as: > > http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80m2/m2_cpu_roms.zip > Depends on what you mean by "the same". It's the same ROMs. From searetcompsoc at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 00:09:20 2012 From: searetcompsoc at gmail.com (SRCS Admin) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:09:20 -0800 Subject: Seattle Retro-Computing Society meets Saturday Feb. 25th Message-ID: Come one, come all, to the Seattle Retro-Computing Society's regular monthly meeting! It will be held Saturday, February 25th from 11:30 AM to 5:00 PM (please note our new, later starting time). Do you do any of the following with old computers? Will you be near Seattle on Saturday? + Use, collect, and/or restore them + Play games on them + Write programs for them + Develop new hardware for them + Help other people do any of the above If your answer was "yes," then the SRCS is for you! We exist so you can show off your awesome stuff, bounce ideas off of fellow enthusiasts, and be inspired by one another's achievements, plans and aspirations. No idea is too big or too small, and we're not picky about what flavor of vintage machine you prefer! Come on down and tell us about it! The meetings are graciously hosted by the Living Computer Museum, which is gradually fitting out a computer museum in Seattle's SODO neighborhood. There will be refreshments, a Buy-Sell-Free-Trade table, and enough table space & power to set up anything you may want to show off! For further details, please see our web page at http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com/ and our mailing list at http://groups.google.com/group/seattle-retrocomp . Hope to see you there! Gordon "gsteemso" Steemson SRCS agitator-in-chief -- The Seattle Retro-Computing Society http://www.seattleretrocomputing.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 23 00:19:00 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:19:00 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120222071546.8owmq2hntw4ocww4@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: , <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org>, , <4F442D28.2070300@gmail.com>, <20120222071546.8owmq2hntw4ocww4@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: Hi The HaL had a seperate micro processor that would be connected to a terminal for diagnostics. I used to work for them but didn't save any of the documentation on the diagnotic processor ( I forget which one it was as well ). I still have one of the MCM processors ( most likely blown up ). It is cool to look at. Dwight > Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 07:15:46 +0100 > From: emu at e-bbes.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) > > Zitat von Jules Richardson : > > > I'm not sure if the "phone home" was an SGI feature, or > > something that they'd cooked up themselves. It seemed like a useful > > feature for any kind of environment where uptime was crucial. > > Computers with build in diagnosis? > HAL? > ;-) > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 00:20:54 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:20:54 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F45CD7B.40705@brouhaha.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com>, <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F45CD7B.40705@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F456A46.2638.2EA424C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2012 at 21:24, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > Is this basically the same content as: > > > > http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/trs80m2/m2_cpu_roms.zip > > > Depends on what you mean by "the same". It's the same ROMs. What did you use for your disassembler? (I normally use IDA Pro, which makes very short work of most ROM tasks). --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 23 00:35:33 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 22 Feb 2012 22:35:33 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F456A46.2638.2EA424C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com>, <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F45CD7B.40705@brouhaha.com> <4F456A46.2638.2EA424C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F45DE35.9070701@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > What did you use for your disassembler? A simple disassembler I wrote myself. > (I normally use IDA Pro, which makes very short work of most ROM tasks). I've used IDA Pro. I agree that IDA Pro makes it simple to get a reasonable disassembly, but then, a disassembly isn't at all the same thing as "reverse-engineered source code" IMNSHO. A disassembly tells you that 05ah is loaded into the B register, but it usually doesn't tell you what the meaning of 05ah is, nor why it is desired to have it in B. Eric From useddec at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 02:21:06 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 02:21:06 -0600 Subject: RL01/RL02 unit select plugs In-Reply-To: <4F459B1E.40401@neurotica.com> References: <4F459B1E.40401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave, I'll try to look for one this weekend. Paul On 2/22/12, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Can anyone here (preferably in the US) spare an RL01/02 unit select > plug for unit "2"? I thought I had one but I can't find it. I can swap > a "0" if desired. > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire, AK4HZ > New Kensington, PA > From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 23 02:56:10 2012 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:56:10 +0000 Subject: Commodore 1581 repair conclusion In-Reply-To: <24B2BFDDA0334EA5BC5B761F6AE6625E@G4UGMT41> Message-ID: On 2/22/12 2:19 PM, "Dave" wrote: >> >The very first 6800 I bought came with a failing carry between the two >bytes >of the 16-bit registers. Very disconcerting as it was the first micro I >had >ever made. However the supplier replaced it no questions asked... > >Dave Wade G4UGM >Illegitimi Non Carborundum I hadn't thought about this in a long time: I once worked on what we would now call an embedded system, that did video generation for cable TV channels. The system was based on the 6800, and we learned that there were particular product runs where you had to insert a NOP before a SEI (SEt Interrupt mask) or the SEI would fail. It bothered me no end at the time - it just seemed *wrong* to waste precious working store and processor cycles! The file system (on 8" floppies) was also sequential in allocation, so it was 'best practice' to immediately purge a file you didn't need anymore. If you forgot, then N new files later someone had to run a purge that relocated blocks to deal with fragmentation (holes), very very slowly. The assembler didn't spool its print output, either, so we ran full builds as seldom as possible, preferring to patch in the EPROM programmer when we could. Ah, those were the days?. -- Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 07:57:22 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 08:57:22 -0500 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F45DE35.9070701@brouhaha.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com>, <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F45CD7B.40705@brouhaha.com> <4F456A46.2638.2EA424C@cclist.sydex.com> <4F45DE35.9070701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <33C5041E-4E62-4641-A440-23DA4743E2AA@gmail.com> On Feb 23, 2012, at 1:35 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> (I normally use IDA Pro, which makes very short work of most ROM tasks). > I've used IDA Pro. I agree that IDA Pro makes it simple to get a reasonable disassembly, but then, a disassembly isn't at all the same thing as "reverse-engineered source code" IMNSHO. A disassembly tells you that 05ah is loaded into the B register, but it usually doesn't tell you what the meaning of 05ah is, nor why it is desired to have it in B. Agreed, but I find IDA Pro's interactive features to be invaluable for getting there (it's my grey matter that turns it back into source code). It has a lot of quirks that make me want to punch the screen at times, though (especially when dealing with embedded code where an image may be overlaid one or more times). I'm half inclined to write my own as well, but I won't have the time for quite a while. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Feb 23 08:36:47 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 09:36:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <33C5041E-4E62-4641-A440-23DA4743E2AA@gmail.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com> <4F455BDD.1357.2B1F787@cclist.sydex.com> <4F45CD7B.40705@brouhaha.com> <4F456A46.2638.2EA424C@cclist.sydex.com> <4F45DE35.9070701@brouhaha.com> <33C5041E-4E62-4641-A440-23DA4743E2AA@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201202231436.JAA28706@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I've used IDA Pro. I agree that IDA Pro makes it simple to get a reasonabl$ > Agreed, but I find IDA Pro's interactive features to be invaluable for getti$ Please don't use paragraph-length lines. >> I've used IDA Pro. I agree that IDA Pro makes it simple to get a >> reasonable disassembly, but then, a disassembly isn't at all the >> same thing as "reverse-engineered source code" IMNSHO. > [I find IDA Pro helps, but it annoys me sometimes] > I'm half inclined to write my own as well, but I won't have the time > for quite a while. I have an interactive disassembler which I wrote specifically for picking apart unknown binaries. I first started it for dealing with a captured malware binary; since then I've used it for a Y2K consulting gig, dealing with a Y2K bug in closed-source software whose vendor no longer existed (yes, it goes back to before Y2K), and various other such things. Might be usable as a starting point, if nothing else. git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/disas if you'd like to git it; ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/disas/src/ if you'd rather FTP. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 09:25:03 2012 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 10:25:03 -0500 Subject: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today In-Reply-To: <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 12:08 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > To these people, everthing is an iPad, XBox, iPhone or Web server, I > guess. It's the mindset that computers are toys, games, or accessories or something similar. For others the computer is a tool. If it works, you use it. A 20-year old hammer works every bit as well as a new one. The university I worked for still ran an early 80's vintage Amdhal mainframe well into the late 1990's for the sole purpose of running SPSS, because the cost of running the mainframe plus the yearly license for SPSS was cheaper than a site desktop license. Finally, SPSS got fed up supporting the mainframe version (I think the university was the last user using that version) and offered low enough desktop licensing to make it worth moving to that model. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 23 09:49:44 2012 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 07:49:44 -0800 Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F4556C0.4010700@neurotica.com> References: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> <4F454860.8070207@bitsavers.org> <4F4556C0.4010700@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F466018.5030909@bitsavers.org> On 2/22/12 12:57 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > I'd love images of those if you can find the time. > 4.1c and patches along with the release notes have been uploaded to bitsavers. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 12:16:39 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 10:16:39 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineered source code for TRS-80 Model II/12/16 boot ROMs In-Reply-To: <4F45DE35.9070701@brouhaha.com> References: <4F45C880.4060007@brouhaha.com>, <4F456A46.2638.2EA424C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4F45DE35.9070701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F461207.48.B6490@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2012 at 22:35, Eric Smith wrote: > I've used IDA Pro. I agree that IDA Pro makes it simple to get a > reasonable disassembly, but then, a disassembly isn't at all the same > thing as "reverse-engineered source code" IMNSHO. A disassembly tells > you that 05ah is loaded into the B register, but it usually doesn't > tell you what the meaning of 05ah is, nor why it is desired to have it > in B. No--but I asked about disassembly, not reverse-engineering. What I like about IDA is that there are sufficient features to create a source file that looks like you wrote it yourself--with narrative. When you're done disassembling you also get a chart that shows how the various routines interact. Visual cues are largely in the hands of the guy behind the keyboard. If you don't know, what, say, a SCSI CDB looks like, no disassembler is going to help you figure that one out. It does know about some PC-related I/O ports, interrupts and so forth, which is useful for disassembling option ROMs. I haven't looked into seeing if this can be done for other architecutres, such as the Model II, but I would be mildly surprised if it wasn't possible. --Chuck From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 23 13:33:53 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:33:53 +0100 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? Message-ID: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> I want to bould my own PDP11 some day but in an other way as other people here :-) I want to build an Bit Slice CPU out of AM2901 Chips to emulate the PDP11 CPU. As a prt of the design I'LL need some very fast Proms for the microcode and I've found the AM27C291,TMS27C291 and CY7C291 Chips, they are fast and big enough (2Kx8 and 25-35ns). I'mm looking now for a data sheet from the CY7C291 that describes the programming algorithm, getting a datasheet is easy on http://www.datasheetarchive.com/ but there is this sentence in the text: "Programming Information Programming Support is available from Cypress as well as from a number of third party software vendors. For detailed programming information, including a listing of software packages, please see the PROM Programming Information located at the end of this section. Programming algorithms can be obtained from any Cypress repesentative." Ok, so far so good. I don't know of what end of which section I schould look for the programming information, since I don't know from where the datasheet was scanned from. I've contacted Cypress itself some time before..to make it short: they failed. The sold the entire Eprom bussines years agao (forgot to which company) but wheter cypress nor the new company has the required information or want to share them. So please: Maybe someone has this old databook from cypress and could look "at the end of this section"? I got the algorithm for the TMS in a datasheet, but according the german company "Conitec" that makes programmers (have a GALEP-III from them) that seems to be not the same on the CY7C291. The guy there couldn't program my samples I've sent to him. Any help? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 23 13:54:53 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:54:53 -0500 Subject: RL01/RL02 unit select plugs In-Reply-To: References: <4F459B1E.40401@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4F46998D.5050406@neurotica.com> Thank you Paul! -Dave On 02/23/2012 03:21 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I'll try to look for one this weekend. > > Paul > > On 2/22/12, Dave McGuire wrote: >> >> Can anyone here (preferably in the US) spare an RL01/02 unit select >> plug for unit "2"? I thought I had one but I can't find it. I can swap >> a "0" if desired. >> >> Thanks, >> -Dave >> >> -- >> Dave McGuire, AK4HZ >> New Kensington, PA >> -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 13:56:36 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:56:36 -0600 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... Message-ID: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A consoles? I've been offered one locally which the owner says "has a missing knob" - at the moment I'm guessing that means one of the four control levers on the top has been snapped off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm totally unfamiliar with these machines; if that is the case, I don't know if that also means there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's more of a cosmetic issue? They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in order to test it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, I'm totally unfamiliar with these critters - do they have a built-in RF modulator and just use a standard co-ax cable to the TV? Or are they composite video output? Or something else entirely? What about PSU; is this internal, or an external brick? I expect its value in current untested state is peanuts (which might end up being a problem if the seller equates age with value) - even tested, complete units with a similar amount of games don't seem to sell for very much. It'd be nice to get a handle on cost to fix any external issues though (setting aside any electronic problems which might be lurking - are there any gotchas in terms of these beasts being known for bit-rot?) cheers Jules (never an Atari owner!) From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 23 13:59:41 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 11:59:41 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F469AAD.206@brouhaha.com> Holm Tiffe wrote: > I'mm looking now for a data sheet from the CY7C291 that describes the > programming algorithm, There isn't one. > Programming Support is available from Cypress as well as from a number of > third party software vendors. For detailed programming information, > including a listing of software packages, please see the PROM Programming > Information located at the end of this section. Programming algorithms can > be obtained from any Cypress repesentative." [...] > So please: Maybe someone has this old databook from cypress and could look > "at the end of this section"? I remember what is "at the end of this section", which is the list of vendors. It did *not* have programming specifications. Those were really hard to get, even when Cypress was still making the parts. I did eventually get programming specs for one of their CPLDs, but it took nearly a year, and an NDA. Do yourself a favor, and either find a programmer that already supports that part, or design in a more modern part. There are many 45 ns flash chips available. A few of the older ones are available in PLCC, which is easily socketable. Or use a RAM chip, with muxes or three-state buffers driving the address so that something else (e.g., a microprocessor or microcontroller) can load the microcode. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:25:09 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:25:09 +0000 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: In the data book it has the flowchart and timing diagram http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DB/DB41_Cypress_CMOS/ Dave Caroline From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 23 14:26:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:26:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Feb 23, 12 08:33:53 pm Message-ID: > > > I want to bould my own PDP11 some day but in an other way as other people > here :-) > I want to build an Bit Slice CPU out of AM2901 Chips to emulate the > PDP11 CPU. As a prt of the design I'LL need some very fast Proms for the > microcode and I've found the AM27C291,TMS27C291 and CY7C291 Chips, they a= > re > fast and big enough (2Kx8 and 25-35ns). > > I'mm looking now for a data sheet from the CY7C291 that describes the > programming algorithm, getting a datasheet is easy on Unfortunately, I have a Cypress databook that includes this device. I say 'unfortuantely' beucase I also have the 'programming information' section. It's useless!. It's 2 apges long epxlaining in general terms how these devices a differnet from other EPROMs. It then refers you back to the data sheet. There is a little table there which shows how the verios chip select pins are re-assigned in programmign mode (you apply Vpp -- 12.5V -- to one of the thm, then other is the programming pulse, etc. Address inputs are as normal, you apply tjhe data to be programemd onto the data (output) lines, as you'd expect). But I guess you've seen all that as you have the data sheet. What I can't find anyware is a timing diagram. How long should the programming pulse be, etc. And I guess that's what you need to know. I suspect, als, that unless somebody hwas got this information out of Cypress years ago and stil lahs it, you're not goign to find it :-(. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 23 14:36:23 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:36:23 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <4F46A347.4020800@brouhaha.com> Dave Caroline wrote: > In the data book it has the flowchart and timing diagram > > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DB/DB41_Cypress_CMOS/ > > Dave Caroline > Wow, good find! Must be a different (earlier?) edition of the databook than the one I have. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:48:31 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 20:48:31 +0000 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F46A347.4020800@brouhaha.com> References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F46A347.4020800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Spose I should continue a few more pages, 7C291A then....page 3_117 PROM programming information 3 pages total Databook is 1988 Dave Caroline From michael.passer at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 14:50:36 2012 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:50:36 -0500 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> References: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Atari 2600 has a built-in RF modulator and IIRC a permanently attached RF cord with an RCA plug on the end which was intended to be plugged into a "TV/GAME" switchbox. On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 2:56 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A consoles? I've been > offered one locally which the owner says "has a missing knob" - at the > moment I'm guessing that means one of the four control levers on the top > has been snapped off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm totally > unfamiliar with these machines; if that is the case, I don't know if that > also means there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's more of a cosmetic > issue? > > They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in order to test > it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, I'm totally unfamiliar with > these critters - do they have a built-in RF modulator and just use a > standard co-ax cable to the TV? Or are they composite video output? Or > something else entirely? What about PSU; is this internal, or an external > brick? > > I expect its value in current untested state is peanuts (which might end > up being a problem if the seller equates age with value) - even tested, > complete units with a similar amount of games don't seem to sell for very > much. It'd be nice to get a handle on cost to fix any external issues > though (setting aside any electronic problems which might be lurking - are > there any gotchas in terms of these beasts being known for bit-rot?) > > cheers > > Jules (never an Atari owner!) > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 14:51:35 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 12:51:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1330030295.24332.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Jules Richardson wrote: > What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A > consoles? I've been offered one locally which the owner says > "has a missing knob" - at the moment I'm guessing that means > one of the four control levers on the top has been snapped > off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm totally unfamiliar > with these machines; if that is the case, I don't know if > that also means there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's > more of a cosmetic issue? The tops of the switch handles usually just break off. The PCB is single sided, and really simple, especially where the switches are. Chances are, the switch body is still there, with just the silver part on the top snapped off. You can substitute any switch that will fit, but the "right" switch might be hard to get. > They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in > order to test it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, > I'm totally unfamiliar with these critters - do they have a > built-in RF modulator and just use a standard co-ax cable to > the TV? Or are they composite video output? Or something > else entirely? What about PSU; is this internal, or an > external brick? The power supply is a simple unregulated 9v DC wall wart, supplied with a 1/8" mono headphone plug (tip positive). Internally it feeds a 7805 voltage regulator, so you can supply it with just about any DC voltage from 7 volts up to 35 volts, and it will work - just, you know, it'll get real hot at higher voltages :) Internally, the Atari runs on 5 volts DC. Connection to the television is through an integral coaxial cable, terminating in an RCA plug. This is an RF TV signal, on channel 2 or 3 (switch setting dependent). You need an old style "switchbox" to connect it to the VHF terminals on the back of a television, or you can use a simple F connector to RCA adapter to connect it to the cable input of a newer set. The latter is preferable, the cheap tin switchboxes leak RF interference like a sieve. The newer type automatic switchboxes intended for a Nintendo or Sega Genesis won't work, as the Atari's signal is too weak to trip them. > I expect its value in current untested state is peanuts > (which might end up being a problem if the seller equates > age with value) - even tested, complete units with a similar > amount of games don't seem to sell for very much. It'd be > nice to get a handle on cost to fix any external issues > though (setting aside any electronic problems which might be > lurking - are there any gotchas in terms of these beasts > being known for bit-rot?) The consoles are worth very little in general. Don't pay more than $20 for one in working condition. Unless, of course, it's the very early "heavy sixer", made in Sunnyvale, which is worth a bit more simply because it was the first model. But the common 4 switch versions are worth very, very little. Especially broken. There's not much in an Atari to break, usually it's bad solder joints at controller ports and switches, occasionally a bad 7805. Bad power packs are common because of the cheap nasty wire they used. There are three chips inside, the most common failure is the RIOT chip, which handles the controller ports. The Atari 2600 is a fantastic machine, and a wonderful game console. It's very simple, and very reliable. Happy gaming! -Ian From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 15:03:40 2012 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 21:03:40 +0000 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F46A347.4020800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > Spose I should continue a few more pages, > 7C291A > then....page 3_117 > PROM programming information 3 pages total > > Databook is 1988 > > Dave Caroline Now scanned the A version and the programming section http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DB/DB41_Cypress_CMOS/ Dave Caroline From mike at fenz.net Thu Feb 23 15:07:44 2012 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:07:44 +1300 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> References: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f34d8370228a6703f163c0e017d9fcc@vodafone.co.nz> Hi Jules, Yes, with rough treatment those turned switches do break off. Some are momentary and others are 2 position types, though they all look identical. Probably no PCB damage, normally the body of the switch stays put and the shaft goes missing. The connector is probably the power adaptor, 9VDC 600mA or so. Shuold be easy, though they do have a 3.5mm plug. Depending on the model, it could be the RF cable, though the original model had a fixed cable (the 'Junior' model had a socket and removable cable). And yes, these things really aren't worth a great deal, even here in New Zealand, perhaps NZ$60 with a couple of cartridges (that's maybe US$45 or something, at a vague guess). An interesting fix-up project though. I find them reasonably reliable, though ones with faulty ICs are pretty common. Even fixing that isn't so hard. Feel free to drpo me a note if I can help, I have messed with these things a bit. Cheers, Mike On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:56:36 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A consoles? I've been > offered one locally which the owner says "has a missing knob" - at the > moment I'm guessing that means one of the four control levers on the top > has been snapped off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm totally > unfamiliar with these machines; if that is the case, I don't know if that > also means there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's more of a cosmetic > issue? > > They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in order to test > it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, I'm totally unfamiliar with > these critters - do they have a built-in RF modulator and just use a > standard co-ax cable to the TV? Or are they composite video output? Or > something else entirely? What about PSU; is this internal, or an external > brick? > > I expect its value in current untested state is peanuts (which might end up > > being a problem if the seller equates age with value) - even tested, > complete units with a similar amount of games don't seem to sell for very > much. It'd be nice to get a handle on cost to fix any external issues > though (setting aside any electronic problems which might be lurking - are > there any gotchas in terms of these beasts being known for bit-rot?) > > cheers > > Jules (never an Atari owner!) From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 23 15:15:28 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:15:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <1330030295.24332.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1330031728.28373.YahooMailClassic@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The tops of the switch handles usually just break off. The > PCB is single sided, and really simple, especially where the > switches are. I just realized my mistake and should correct it now before other people call me out on it... The 6 switch Atari consoles have a separate PCB for the switches, which is single sided. The later 4 switch consoles have only one board, double sided, which contains all the electronics as well as the switches. Either way, snapping off a switch is unlikely to cause any damage to the PCB that can't be easily patched. -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 15:46:33 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 15:46:33 -0600 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <1330030295.24332.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1330030295.24332.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F46B3B9.4050007@gmail.com> On 02/23/2012 02:51 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 2/23/12, Jules Richardson > wrote: > >> What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A consoles? I've >> been offered one locally which the owner says "has a missing knob" - >> at the moment I'm guessing that means one of the four control levers >> on the top has been snapped off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm >> totally unfamiliar with these machines; if that is the case, I don't >> know if that also means there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's >> more of a cosmetic issue? > > The tops of the switch handles usually just break off. The PCB is single > sided, and really simple, especially where the switches are. Chances > are, the switch body is still there, with just the silver part on the > top snapped off. You can substitute any switch that will fit, but the > "right" switch might be hard to get. Thanks - I do like to make these kinds of things 'right' eventually, but at the same time it doesn't bother me if they're non-original for months or years in the meantime, so I'd be happy to improvise a fix for the broken one and just keep an eye out for a real replacement. >> They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in order to >> test it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, I'm totally >> unfamiliar with these critters - do they have a built-in RF modulator >> and just use a standard co-ax cable to the TV? Or are they composite >> video output? Or something else entirely? What about PSU; is this >> internal, or an external brick? > > The power supply is a simple unregulated 9v DC wall wart, supplied with > a 1/8" mono headphone plug (tip positive). Internally it feeds a 7805 > voltage regulator, so you can supply it with just about any DC voltage > from 7 volts up to 35 volts, and it will work - just, you know, it'll > get real hot at higher voltages :) > > Internally, the Atari runs on 5 volts DC. Ahh, OK, same setup as my Acorn Atoms then - I've probably got a spare PSU somewhere that can supply enough current, or I'll build one, or I'll bypass the regulator and feed it regulated 5V from a junk PC PSU... > Connection to the television is through an integral coaxial cable, > terminating in an RCA plug. This is an RF TV signal, on channel 2 or 3 > (switch setting dependent). You need an old style "switchbox" to connect > it to the VHF terminals on the back of a television, or you can use a > simple F connector to RCA adapter to connect it to the cable input of a > newer set. The latter is preferable, the cheap tin switchboxes leak RF > interference like a sieve. The newer type automatic switchboxes intended > for a Nintendo or Sega Genesis won't work, as the Atari's signal is too > weak to trip them. OK, I don't think that will be a problem; I've got an old CRT TV kicking around with RF input which will hopefully work. > The consoles are worth very little in general. Don't pay more than $20 > for one in working condition. Unless, of course, it's the very early > "heavy sixer", made in Sunnyvale, which is worth a bit more simply > because it was the first model. But the common 4 switch versions are > worth very, very little. Especially broken. Yes, it sounds like this is a 4-switch one (I think the 6-switch ones lacked the 'A' designation). I'm not sure if it's an earlier 4-switch with the wood-grain or a later all-black one (but the owner says they bought it somewhere between '79 and '82, and some googling suggests that the all-black ones didn't come out until some time in '82) This one apparently has around 20 games with it, so it is reasonable in that aspect - I did a quick check on ebay and they seem to be around the $35-$40 mark for a *working* one with that many, but obviously cosmetic damage and unknown operational status make a big difference (well, at least they do to me :-) cheers Jules From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 23 16:22:48 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 14:22:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F46B3B9.4050007@gmail.com> References: <1330030295.24332.YahooMailClassic@web121603.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4F46B3B9.4050007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Feb 2012, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Connection to the television is through an integral coaxial cable, >> terminating in an RCA plug. This is an RF TV signal, on channel 2 or 3 >> (switch setting dependent). You need an old style "switchbox" to connect >> it to the VHF terminals on the back of a television, or you can use a >> simple F connector to RCA adapter to connect it to the cable input of a >> newer set. The latter is preferable, the cheap tin switchboxes leak RF >> interference like a sieve. The newer type automatic switchboxes intended >> for a Nintendo or Sega Genesis won't work, as the Atari's signal is too >> weak to trip them. > > OK, I don't think that will be a problem; I've got an old CRT TV kicking > around with RF input which will hopefully work. See http://longhornengineer.com/atari-av-mods/ for some very good AV mod boards for the 2600 and 7800. What I did for mine was take an octopus cable with composite video, svideo, and the two audio channels and run it through the same hole that the RF cable went. I didn't want to drill into the case of my precious six-switcher. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 23 16:48:00 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 23:48:00 +0100 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F46A347.4020800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120223224800.GB50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Dave Caroline wrote: > On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 8:48 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: > > Spose I should continue a few more pages, > > 7C291A > > then....page 3_117 > > PROM programming information 3 pages total > > > > Databook is 1988 > > > > Dave Caroline > > Now scanned the A version and the programming section > > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DB/DB41_Cypress_CMOS/ > > Dave Caroline Thank you very much Dave!! Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Feb 23 17:04:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 00:04:49 +0100 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F469AAD.206@brouhaha.com> References: <20120223193353.GA50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <4F469AAD.206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120223230449.GC50718@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Eric Smith wrote: > Holm Tiffe wrote: > >I'mm looking now for a data sheet from the CY7C291 that describes the > >programming algorithm, > There isn't one. > > >Programming Support is available from Cypress as well as from a number of > >third party software vendors. For detailed programming information, > >including a listing of software packages, please see the PROM Programming > >Information located at the end of this section. Programming algorithms can > >be obtained from any Cypress repesentative." > [...] > >So please: Maybe someone has this old databook from cypress and could look > >"at the end of this section"? > I remember what is "at the end of this section", which is the list of > vendors. It did *not* have programming specifications. > Those were really hard to get, even when Cypress was still making the > parts. I did eventually get programming specs for one of their CPLDs, > but it took nearly a year, and an NDA. > > Do yourself a favor, and either find a programmer that already supports > that part, or design in a more modern part. There are many 45 ns flash > chips available. A few of the older ones are available in PLCC, which is > easily socketable. Or use a RAM chip, with muxes or three-state buffers > driving the address so that something else (e.g., a microprocessor or > microcontroller) can load the microcode. Why this? The loadable microprogram storage is my 2nd option, already have begun to build some out of old cache rams. As I already wrote, I've contacted the company that made my (now old, only supporting 5V Devices) parallel port programmer, and their boss decided to implement the algorithms for the chips in the library so taht I could use tem with that programmer. Last but not least, that where not the first programmer that I've build myself... An Atmega doesn't cost that much and the hardware is easy to build if you only support one family of chips and don't have too much pin drivers for many different voltages. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Feb 23 17:11:47 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 18:11:47 -0500 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <7f34d8370228a6703f163c0e017d9fcc@vodafone.co.nz> References: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> <7f34d8370228a6703f163c0e017d9fcc@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: You can get any spare parts for any Atari product from Best Electronics www.best-electronics-ca.com Curt Sent from my iPhone On Feb 23, 2012, at 4:07 PM, Mike van Bokhoven wrote: > Hi Jules, > > Yes, with rough treatment those turned switches do break off. Some are > momentary and others are 2 position types, though they all look identical. > Probably no PCB damage, normally the body of the switch stays put and the > shaft goes missing. The connector is probably the power adaptor, 9VDC 600mA > or so. Shuold be easy, though they do have a 3.5mm plug. Depending on the > model, it could be the RF cable, though the original model had a fixed > cable (the 'Junior' model had a socket and removable cable). And yes, these > things really aren't worth a great deal, even here in New Zealand, perhaps > NZ$60 with a couple of cartridges (that's maybe US$45 or something, at a > vague guess). An interesting fix-up project though. I find them reasonably > reliable, though ones with faulty ICs are pretty common. Even fixing that > isn't so hard. Feel free to drpo me a note if I can help, I have messed > with these things a bit. > > Cheers, > Mike > > > On Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:56:36 -0600, Jules Richardson > wrote: >> What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A consoles? I've been > >> offered one locally which the owner says "has a missing knob" - at the >> moment I'm guessing that means one of the four control levers on the top >> has been snapped off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm totally >> unfamiliar with these machines; if that is the case, I don't know if that > >> also means there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's more of a cosmetic >> issue? >> >> They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in order to > test >> it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, I'm totally unfamiliar > with >> these critters - do they have a built-in RF modulator and just use a >> standard co-ax cable to the TV? Or are they composite video output? Or >> something else entirely? What about PSU; is this internal, or an external > >> brick? >> >> I expect its value in current untested state is peanuts (which might end > up >> >> being a problem if the seller equates age with value) - even tested, >> complete units with a similar amount of games don't seem to sell for very > >> much. It'd be nice to get a handle on cost to fix any external issues >> though (setting aside any electronic problems which might be lurking - > are >> there any gotchas in terms of these beasts being known for bit-rot?) >> >> cheers >> >> Jules (never an Atari owner!) From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 23 17:19:19 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:19:19 -0700 Subject: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today In-Reply-To: <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4F455933.28987.2A791F8 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > The comments make me sad. [...] On the contrary, the comments (and the attitude that goes with it), keep my skills valuable. Because they'll soon find out that my expertise is needed when they try to do it their way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Feb 23 18:16:29 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 01:16:29 +0100 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20120219185507.D42771@shell.lmi.net> <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Feb 19, 2012 at 08:08:39PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Feb 2012 at 19:21, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Feb 2012, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > So can I gather that there is no clear definition > > > > That is CORRECT. > > There has never been a definitive definition, but MANY by marketing > > people who do NOT understand. > > Supreme Court justices trying to define pornography. > > You can give some characteristics that might qualify a given hunk of > iron as having mainframe status, but there will always be an > exception. > > If it requires special cooling (e.g. chilled water, liquid nitrogen), > it's probably a mainframe. Well, these days people are building 19" racks for high density datacenters with builtin water cooling at the rack level. And when you look at the power density of e.g. a fully loaded blade system has it makes a lot of sense. Wouldn't call those setups mainframes, though ;-) Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 19:38:03 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:38:03 -0800 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: , <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2012 at 1:16, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Well, these days people are building 19" racks for high density > datacenters with builtin water cooling at the rack level. And when you > look at the power density of e.g. a fully loaded blade system has it > makes a lot of sense. Well, in the old days, there were very few (I can think of one Honeywell system) that used water cooling directly (i.e. direct contact with heatsinks). The CDC gear used it in the condenser coils located in the base of the CPU cabinet cooling unit. it made sense-- why ask the field engineers to run freon lines in addition to cables? The freon was used to cool "cold plates"; i.e., cooling was not done with air. How do your water-fed server racks do their cooling? Air or cold- plate or something else? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 23 19:41:30 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:41:30 -0800 Subject: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today In-Reply-To: References: , <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4F467A4A.23088.1A2ADC3@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2012 at 16:19, Richard wrote: > On the contrary, the comments (and the attitude that goes with it), > keep my skills valuable. Because they'll soon find out that my > expertise is needed when they try to do it their way. Ah, I can see it, being asked to work on gear, hearing aids, coke- bottle bottom spectacles, walker and all. :) --Chuck From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Feb 23 10:07:12 2012 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 16:07:12 -0000 Subject: If It Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It: Ancient Computers in Use Today In-Reply-To: References: <4F455933.28987.2A791F8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >>>> The university I worked for still ran an early 80's vintage Amdhal mainframe well into the late 1990's for the sole purpose of running SPSS, because the cost of running the mainframe plus the yearly license for SPSS was cheaper than a site desktop license. <<<< Oddly enough the University computer centre where I was employed bought its first SUN for a similar (in reverse) reason - it was significantly cheaper to buy the SUN and an Ada compiler for it than to get the Ada compiler for the Honeywell mainframe. As it happens I don't think the /users/ who were demanding we support Ada ever even tried using it so we got a nice new toy and wasted less money. From wgungfu at gmail.com Thu Feb 23 17:20:52 2012 From: wgungfu at gmail.com (Martin Goldberg) Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 17:20:52 -0600 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> References: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules, there's two long running businesses that carry repair parts for every Atari product - myatari.com http://www.best-electronics-ca.com/ They've been selling official service replacement parts since the 80's. On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 1:56 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > What's the parts availability like for Atari CX-2600A consoles? I've been > offered one locally which the owner says "has a missing knob" - at the > moment I'm guessing that means one of the four control levers on the top has > been snapped off (but I'm awaiting clearer info). I'm totally unfamiliar > with these machines; if that is the case, I don't know if that also means > there's likely to be PCB damage or if it's more of a cosmetic issue? > > They also say they can't find "a connector" to hook it up in order to test > it - that's a bit light on detail, too! Again, I'm totally unfamiliar with > these critters - do they have a built-in RF modulator and just use a > standard co-ax cable to the TV? Or are they composite video output? Or > something else entirely? What about PSU; is this internal, or an external > brick? > > I expect its value in current untested state is peanuts (which might end up > being a problem if the seller equates age with value) - even tested, > complete units with a similar amount of games don't seem to sell for very > much. It'd be nice to get a handle on cost to fix any external issues though > (setting aside any electronic problems which might be lurking - are there > any gotchas in terms of these beasts being known for bit-rot?) > > cheers > > Jules (never an Atari owner!) > -- Marty From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Feb 24 03:04:49 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 01:04:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is this: PR1ME computer terminal Message-ID: <1330074289.52231.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> A guy sent me this photo, of his one-piece PR1ME (spelled with s number 1) terminal. They were big in the 70's, not so much in the 80's. Is this something rare? http://oldcomputers.net/temp/prime-terminal.jpg From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Feb 24 05:37:50 2012 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:37:50 +0100 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com> <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120224113750.GA5503@thangorodrim.de> On Thu, Feb 23, 2012 at 05:38:03PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 24 Feb 2012 at 1:16, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > Well, these days people are building 19" racks for high density > > datacenters with builtin water cooling at the rack level. And when you > > look at the power density of e.g. a fully loaded blade system has it > > makes a lot of sense. > > Well, in the old days, there were very few (I can think of one > Honeywell system) that used water cooling directly (i.e. direct > contact with heatsinks). The CDC gear used it in the condenser coils > located in the base of the CPU cabinet cooling unit. it made sense-- > why ask the field engineers to run freon lines in addition to cables? > > The freon was used to cool "cold plates"; i.e., cooling was not done > with air. > > How do your water-fed server racks do their cooling? Air or cold- > plate or something else? I haven't seen those setups in person, but the water cooled racks $VENDOR was pitching to us in a previous job had direct hookups for cold (and return hot) water. They were (IIRC) aiming to get 40+ KW of heat out of the rack. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From vcomp99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 06:04:26 2012 From: vcomp99 at gmail.com (VCOMP) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:04:26 +0100 Subject: KA694 FEPROM Message-ID: <4F477CCA.3010706@gmail.com> Hi All For some time now, I'm a happy owner of a VAX 4000-705 system. Unfortunately, it came with corrupted firmware, and I don't have replacement KA694... In 'KA694 CPU System Maintenance' I found information that there were FEPROM updates distributed (AFAIK it was called Firmware Update Utility). Can someone on this list point me to a source for that? Or at least the firmware image alone? TIA, Piotr From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Feb 24 06:30:20 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 04:30:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is this: PR1ME computer terminal In-Reply-To: <1330074289.52231.YahooMailClassic@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1330086620.95690.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 2/24/12, steven stengel wrote: > A guy sent me this photo, of his > one-piece PR1ME (spelled with s number 1) terminal. They > were big in the 70's, not so much in the 80's. > > Is this something rare? > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/prime-terminal.jpg That is a Perkin-Elmer 1200 "Owl" terminal, rebadged by Prime. Prime's old logo was the PR1ME, later simply changed to PRIME. Prime made minicomputers in the 70's through the 90's, and these terminals were popular in the 70's. Later on, Prime made their own terminals (well, kinda, I think they OEM'ed them out somewhere, but they had custom firmware). I'd say it's fairly rare, you don't see them turn up all that often. They did make a lot of them, and they were pretty inexpensive for the time. I can't imagine too many would have survived though. The ones badged Perkin Elmer may be more common. Of course, as a Prime computer collector, I have to ask, wanna sell it? :D -Ian From fraveydank at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 09:20:03 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 10:20:03 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6E9421D0-AC6E-4BFF-BF15-36B0F742F9FD@gmail.com> On Feb 23, 2012, at 8:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > How do your water-fed server racks do their cooling? Air or cold- > plate or something else? I've actually seen some solutions offered that submerged the blades in an inert liquid, similar to what some of the old Crays did. I've seen some overclockers do the same with e.g. mineral oil, but most cheaply-available non-conductive liquids don't have nearly the thermal capacity of water. Still generally better than air, though. - Dave From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Feb 24 10:02:03 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:02:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <6E9421D0-AC6E-4BFF-BF15-36B0F742F9FD@gmail.com> References: , <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> <6E9421D0-AC6E-4BFF-BF15-36B0F742F9FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201202241602.LAA17338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [...], but most cheaply-available non-conductive liquids don't have > nearly the thermal capacity of water. Water actually is not very conductive if you keep it clean - chemically clean, that is, free of dissolved minerals and salts and such; mechanical contaminants don't matter unless they (a) are conductive in their own right or (b) dissolve into the water and render it conductive. Of course, even if you start with pure water, keeping it pure is going to be a bit of a fight if you're using it to cool "normal" computer hardware, at least until the hardware gets washed clean. And, while it's not a large effect, metallic corrosion may be enough to be a problem on a timescale of months or years - I'd have to try it, or dig up more data, to say anything definite. > Still generally better than air, though. True, that. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 10:50:05 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:50:05 -0500 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <201202241602.LAA17338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4F4156C7.8258.26BE0E7@cclist.sydex.com> <20120224001629.GA21704@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4F46797B.16233.19F84BD@cclist.sydex.com> <6E9421D0-AC6E-4BFF-BF15-36B0F742F9FD@gmail.com> <201202241602.LAA17338@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Water actually is not very conductive if you keep it clean - chemically > clean, that is, free of dissolved minerals and salts and such; Many water cooled systems (computer or otherwise) actually use the non-conductive property of pure water as a gauge - when current is passed through the wire, and it reaches a threshold that trips a comparator or relay, then it is time to change the water out. At CyberResources, Tim told me he would test run his Cybers with a garden hose, and they were fine. Apparently the CDC cooling guys used a very forgiving on-demand system, unlike IBM. -- Will From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Feb 24 11:18:02 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 09:18:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: What is this: PR1ME computer terminal In-Reply-To: <1330086620.95690.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1330103882.39936.YahooMailClassic@web110606.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> It's not mine - I will forward your request. --- On Fri, 2/24/12, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > From: Mr Ian Primus > Subject: Re: What is this: PR1ME computer terminal > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Friday, February 24, 2012, 4:30 AM > --- On Fri, 2/24/12, steven stengel > > wrote: > > > A guy sent me this photo, of his > > one-piece PR1ME (spelled with s number 1) terminal. > They > > were big in the 70's, not so much in the 80's. > > > > Is this something rare? > > > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/prime-terminal.jpg > > That is a Perkin-Elmer 1200 "Owl" terminal, rebadged by > Prime. Prime's old logo was the PR1ME, later simply changed > to PRIME. Prime made minicomputers in the 70's through the > 90's, and these terminals were popular in the 70's. Later > on, Prime made their own terminals (well, kinda, I think > they OEM'ed them out somewhere, but they had custom > firmware). > > I'd say it's fairly rare, you don't see them turn up all > that often. They did make a lot of them, and they were > pretty inexpensive for the time. I can't imagine too many > would have survived though. The ones badged Perkin Elmer may > be more common. > > Of course, as a Prime computer collector, I have to ask, > wanna sell it? :D > > -Ian > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 24 11:45:31 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 12:45:31 -0500 Subject: Card reader update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On the not so good side, it looks like not this week. And back on the good side - Sunday is the day I pick up the readers. So, last call. Three interested people have already been sent Paypal invoices. I think there is at least one good unclaimed unit left, but there may be quite a few more, and certainly lots in less-than-great shape. I am going to try to peddle the less-than-great machines for people, for considerably less money. Anyone want a less than great one? Give me your parameters off list - basically what you will pay and what you want. Remember - YOU have to arrange for pack and ship from Phoenixville, PA, unless I can get you your unit on one of my travels. Let me know NOW. Sunday, I can probably be reached for hands and eyes duty to a limited extent, but you will have to send me your cell number (off list, of course). I still really do not know just how many CR11 cards are there, or how many RS-232 conversion kits for the M200s. And the cards are spoken for, as well as the documentation (guess where). -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Feb 24 13:28:38 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: <4F4699F4.5050100@gmail.com> <7f34d8370228a6703f163c0e017d9fcc@vodafone.co.nz> Message-ID: <1330111718.74878.YahooMailNeo@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Man that website gave me a a headache trying to read it... I want the polo shirt but I don't want to stay on that site long enough to order it. ________________________________ From: Curt Vendel You can get any spare parts for any Atari product from Best Electronics www.best-electronics-ca.com Curt From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 24 14:31:00 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 13:31:00 -0700 Subject: What is this: PR1ME computer terminal In-Reply-To: <1330086620.95690.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1330086620.95690.YahooMailClassic@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <1330086620.95690.YahooMailClassic at web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > --- On Fri, 2/24/12, steven stengel wrote: > > > http://oldcomputers.net/temp/prime-terminal.jpg > > That is a Perkin-Elmer 1200 "Owl" terminal, rebadged by Prime. "Perkin-Elmer Enters CRT Arena", Computerworld, January 17, 1977, pg. 29 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 24 14:45:18 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 15:45:18 -0500 Subject: Solbourne was Re: SunOS 4 SMP was Re: monocultures In-Reply-To: <4F466018.5030909@bitsavers.org> References: <201202212044.q1LKiH6p8585450@floodgap.com> <4F45416F.9000309@neurotica.com> <4F454860.8070207@bitsavers.org> <4F4556C0.4010700@neurotica.com> <4F466018.5030909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4F47F6DE.302@neurotica.com> On 02/23/2012 10:49 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I'd love images of those if you can find the time. > > 4.1c and patches along with the release notes have been uploaded to > bitsavers. Thank you Al! -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 15:23:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:23:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F46A347.4020800@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 23, 12 12:36:23 pm Message-ID: > Wow, good find! Must be a different (earlier?) edition of the databook > than the one I have. I'ev heard the (IMHO mostly bogus) reasons for not releasing such information, and I can understand why it wouldn't be included in earlier databooks and then included in later ones (either because many customers are demandign it, or because they relaise there;'s no major risk in releasing it), but I cna't see why it would be removed form alter versions of the databook. Once the informatio nis out there, it's out there... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 24 15:19:45 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 21:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: from "Michael Passer" at Feb 23, 12 03:50:36 pm Message-ID: > > The Atari 2600 has a built-in RF modulator and IIRC a permanently attached > RF cord with an RCA plug on the end which was intended to be plugged into a > "TV/GAME" switchbox. IIRC tjhat switchbox contains what we (in the UK) call a 'Balun'. I am not sure if that term has crossed the Pond, it's an abreviation of 'Balanced <-> Unbalanced'. The outptu of the RF modualtor is a 75 OHm unbalanced signal, I seem to rememebr most US TVs use a 300 Ohm balanced aerial (antenna) input, which maks siense given the aerial is likelyu to abe a dipole. European TVs ahve a 75 Ohm unbalanced inputs, which is electrical nosense to connect to a dipole, but it works anyway... My expeirence is that with somethign like a gmaes console, if you don't ahve the right Balun, you can get away with just connectign the inner and outer of the RCA phono connecotr to the aerial terminals o nthe TV. It's no a match in any sense of the word, but you'll get a perfectly useable picture. -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Feb 24 16:58:53 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 14:58:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 24 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> The Atari 2600 has a built-in RF modulator and IIRC a permanently attached >> RF cord with an RCA plug on the end which was intended to be plugged into a >> "TV/GAME" switchbox. > > IIRC tjhat switchbox contains what we (in the UK) call a 'Balun'. I am > not sure if that term has crossed the Pond, it's an abreviation of > 'Balanced <-> Unbalanced'. In the US, the term "balun" is not used by the general public. It's used mostly by people into radio professionals or hams. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 24 17:12:37 2012 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:12:37 -0500 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F481965.2060609@atarimuseum.com> Used the term balun often during Token Ring installs too. Balun always referred to the cable changer to go from 75 ohm to 300 ohm for TV connections too.... David Griffith wrote: > On Fri, 24 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> The Atari 2600 has a built-in RF modulator and IIRC a permanently >>> attached >>> RF cord with an RCA plug on the end which was intended to be plugged >>> into a >>> "TV/GAME" switchbox. >> >> IIRC tjhat switchbox contains what we (in the UK) call a 'Balun'. I am >> not sure if that term has crossed the Pond, it's an abreviation of >> 'Balanced <-> Unbalanced'. > > In the US, the term "balun" is not used by the general public. It's > used mostly by people into radio professionals or hams. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 24 17:22:54 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 18:22:54 -0500 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F481BCE.50605@neurotica.com> On 02/24/2012 05:58 PM, David Griffith wrote: >>> The Atari 2600 has a built-in RF modulator and IIRC a permanently >>> attached >>> RF cord with an RCA plug on the end which was intended to be plugged >>> into a >>> "TV/GAME" switchbox. >> >> IIRC tjhat switchbox contains what we (in the UK) call a 'Balun'. I am >> not sure if that term has crossed the Pond, it's an abreviation of >> 'Balanced <-> Unbalanced'. > > In the US, the term "balun" is not used by the general public. It's used > mostly by people into radio professionals or hams. ...but in that world, it's in ALL of the literature, and is common knowledge. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From jws at jwsss.com Sat Feb 25 00:54:02 2012 From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens) Date: Fri, 24 Feb 2012 22:54:02 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F48858A.3090503@jwsss.com> On 2/24/2012 1:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Wow, good find! Must be a different (earlier?) edition of the databook >> than the one I have. > I'ev heard the (IMHO mostly bogus) reasons for not releasing such > information, and I can understand why it wouldn't be included in earlier > databooks and then included in later ones (either because many customers > are demandign it, or because they relaise there;'s no major risk in > releasing it), but I cna't see why it would be removed form alter > versions of the databook. Once the informatio nis out there, it's out > there... > > -tony A lot of the Eprom manufacturers had deals with various programmer manufacturers. They warranted that their eproms would program with those manufacturers, or be replaced. There was the desire not to have any one attempt programming their parts as they really could not tell when a bad version of a programmer destroyed their proms. We had a 2732 programmer which worked for a while, but then seemed to start being flaky. I looked at the waveforms of a blank eprom (and never programmed by our programmer) in a circuit, and saw nice clean waveforms for the accesses. After being programmed, and erased the waveforms stopped reaching the 0 level reliably. If I looked at ones that were programmed with other programmers no problem either. At one time the parts were successfully programmed with what we did, which was out of a databook, but then w/o any notice I ever found it stopped working. We didn't have to do that many more parts, and switched to having them done on a Data I/O at our vendor from then on, then later bought a Chinese rig with the ISA card, etc and it worked as well as I could see. Anyway as long as they had the warranty, I suspect they had the problem of who they let do the programming. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 13:15:37 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:15:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Feb 24, 12 02:58:53 pm Message-ID: > > > > IIRC tjhat switchbox contains what we (in the UK) call a 'Balun'. I am > > not sure if that term has crossed the Pond, it's an abreviation of > > 'Balanced <-> Unbalanced'. > > In the US, the term "balun" is not used by the general public. It's used Ove here, the 'genral public' wouldnt' know what a matching transformer was used for :-) > mostly by people into radio professionals or hams. In othe words people who need to talk about such thigs. The term 'Balun' is commonly used by RF engineers, radio amateurs, etc over here. It sounds like it's used in the same way in the States too. I wans't sure, it might haver been one of those terms like 'Valve' which is different ion the States. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 13:17:02 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:17:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F481965.2060609@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at Feb 24, 12 06:12:37 pm Message-ID: > Balun always referred to the cable changer to go from 75 ohm to 300 ohm > for TV connections too.... Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 25 13:24:04 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:24:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F48858A.3090503@jwsss.com> from "Jim Stephens" at Feb 24, 12 10:54:02 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/24/2012 1:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Wow, good find! Must be a different (earlier?) edition of the databook > >> than the one I have. > > I'ev heard the (IMHO mostly bogus) reasons for not releasing such > > information, and I can understand why it wouldn't be included in earlier > > databooks and then included in later ones (either because many customers > > are demandign it, or because they relaise there;'s no major risk in > > releasing it), but I cna't see why it would be removed form alter > > versions of the databook. Once the informatio nis out there, it's out > > there... > > > > -tony > A lot of the Eprom manufacturers had deals with various programmer > manufacturers. They > warranted that their eproms would program with those manufacturers, or > be replaced. There > was the desire not to have any one attempt programming their parts as > they really could not > tell when a bad version of a programmer destroyed their proms. Sue.w That's one of the rasone often given, but I conisder it to be somewhat bogus. I've got other ways of making an EPROM go flaky, or die. Applying 240V (or 115V AC to the pins gernally kills them. So will a large enough static zap. A lesser static zap will get them to fail some tim The way to make sure I program in correctly is to publsih the programmign algorithm. Then I will follow that,. Having to use a commercial pgrogramemr of a particuler model is not enough IMHO. Programmers can and do fail. If my programmed EPROMs stop behaving coreectly how do I know if the programmer has fialed if I am not sure what it's supposed to be doing? If I know the programming algorithm I can put an logic analyser o nthe pins of the device being programemd and see if it's being programmed correctly. > > We had a 2732 programmer which worked for a while, but then seemed to > start being flaky. > > I looked at the waveforms of a blank eprom (and never programmed by our > programmer) in > a circuit, and saw nice clean waveforms for the accesses. After being > programmed, and > erased the waveforms stopped reaching the 0 level reliably. If I looked > at ones that were > programmed with other programmers no problem either. Do you know waht the problem was? Too low a Vpp? Noise on the Vpp line (or Vcc when programming)? Incorrect programmign pusle width? In any case none of this would explain why a manufactuer would publish the programming algorithm and then remove it from later versions of the databook. If the algorithm is 'out there', somebody is going to find it ans use it. -tony From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Feb 25 13:57:43 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> [...] > Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm > unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Feb 25 14:21:51 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 12:21:51 -0800 Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: Message-ID: <1CF3016D900.000006C8n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Very simple: AN unbalanced cable is one where one conductor is grounded. Most coaxial cables are un balanced: the outer shield is grounded, the center conductor carries the signal. For balanced lines, neither conductor is at ground potential; neither line is grounded. A good example of this is the pairs used on differential SCSI interface (as well as SMD and possibly others). Relative to ground, both wires carry signal. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: mouse at rodents-montreal.org > Sent: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0500 (EST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] > >>> [...] >> Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm >> unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. > > Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced > about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly > obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B ____________________________________________________________ Send your photos by email in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if3 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 25 14:23:11 2012 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:23:11 -0500 Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F49432F.6030402@neurotica.com> On 02/25/2012 02:57 PM, Mouse wrote: >> Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm >> unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. > > Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced > about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly > obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) Compare coaxial cable with twin-lead. In coaxial cable, there's a center conductor surrounded by a (usually grounded) shield, which acts as the other conductor. In twin-lead, the two conductors are symmetrical, and (usually) neither is grounded. -Dave -- Dave McGuire, AK4HZ New Kensington, PA From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Feb 25 14:41:06 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 12:41:06 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The way to make sure I program in correctly is to publsih the > programmign algorithm. Then I will follow that,. Sure, but they're not worried about *you*. They're worried about some random idiot, who *claims* to have followed the published algorithm, but somehow screwed up, and then wants to return an entire lot of EPROMs that he claims are of defective manufacture. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sat Feb 25 15:37:56 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 16:37:56 -0500 Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <1CF3016D900.000006C8n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <1CF3016D900.000006C8n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <028DF456-14D7-4A7F-8493-88F538ECF7AA@gmail.com> On Feb 25, 2012, at 3:21 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > Very simple: > > AN unbalanced cable is one where one conductor > is grounded. Most coaxial cables are un balanced: the outer > shield is grounded, the center conductor carries the signal. > > For balanced lines, neither conductor is at ground potential; > neither line is grounded. A good example of this is the > pairs used on differential SCSI interface (as well as SMD and > possibly others). Relative to ground, both wires carry signal. The additional benefit of balanced conductors is that they have a much higher immunity to common-mode noise (i.e. noise that is identical on both signals) because the actual signal is the *difference* between the two legs. Thus, if your actual signal is A-B, and your noise makes it (A+n)-(B+n), the noise will be cancelled out. That's the theory, anyway; noise is seldom 100% common mode, and even when it is, most real-world differential amps will let through a little common-mode noise (and if there's enough to overdrive the inputs, you get other interesting distortion effects). Note that a balanced signal doesn't necessarily need to be entirely free of ground; LVDS, for example, has very defined common-mode voltage offsets so that systems can be DC-coupled instead of sticking a capacitor inline to block a DC offset that's not what your input amp is designed for. - Dave From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 25 15:48:10 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:48:10 -0800 Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F48E69A.3964.134DF2A@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2012 at 14:57, Mouse wrote: > >> [...] > > Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm > > unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. > > Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced > about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly > obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) Think differential vs. single-ended. In differential, both lines carry the same signal, just 180 degrees out of phase, whereas on conductor in an unbalanced/single-ended line is at a constant fixed potenetial. You know this if you fool with various flavors of SCSI or, say, RS422 vs. RS423. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Feb 25 17:02:55 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:02:55 -0800 Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 14:57:43 -0500 > From: mouse at rodents-montreal.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] > > >> [...] > > Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm > > unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. > > Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced > about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly > obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B Hi Balanced is like 300 ohm twin lead ( no ground ) unbalances is like coax. One side is ground ( Shield ). Dwight From pcw at mesanet.com Sat Feb 25 17:13:07 2012 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:13:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <4F48E69A.3964.134DF2A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4F48E69A.3964.134DF2A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 25 Feb 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 13:48:10 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] > > On 25 Feb 2012 at 14:57, Mouse wrote: > >>>> [...] >>> Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm >>> unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. >> >> Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced >> about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly >> obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) > > Think differential vs. single-ended. In differential, both lines > carry the same signal, just 180 degrees out of phase, whereas on > conductor in an unbalanced/single-ended line is at a constant fixed > potenetial. > > You know this if you fool with various flavors of SCSI or, say, RS422 > vs. RS423. > > --Chuck > Also coax based Ethernet vs twisted pair Peter Wallace From william at donnelly-house.net Sat Feb 25 16:34:10 2012 From: william at donnelly-house.net (William Donnelly) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 14:34:10 -0800 Subject: The Elf 2000 PCBs and GALs are available again Message-ID: <4F4961E2.9000607@donnelly-house.net> I have another batch of Elf 2000 PCBs in stock while, as the saying goes, supplies last. It's the same deal as before - the PCB is a snap apart combination that includes the Elf 2000, Disk/UART/RTC and STG1861 individual PCBs. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Elf2K.htm#Ordering The partial kit includes the aforementioned PCB and all the pre-programmed GALs and one OTP EPROM necessary for these three Gizmos. You have to supply the rest of the parts, however thanks to the feedback from some recent customers a current list of suppliers can be found in the Elf 2000 Wiki: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/wdoc/index.php?title=Elf_2000 Bob Armstrong From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Sat Feb 25 17:30:24 2012 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 15:30:24 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> References: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000c01ccf415$738c8020$5aa58060$@comcast.net> I was an engineer at Data I/O from 1981 to 1997 and made numerous visits to semiconductor companies. The semiconductor companies had a good business reason for limiting access to the programming algorithms. The customers expected the programmed PROMs to work over the entire temperature and voltage range for the life of their products. They also expected a minimal number of chips that failed programming. To achieve this, the semiconductor companies would work with leading PROM programmer companies so they could certify the programmer met there specs. If a customer programmed part with one of these devices, the parts should meet all the specs and the semiconductor would stand behind them. Data I/O would publish a "Wall Chart" listing the thousands of different parts their programmers would handle and what revision of software and hardware was needed. Sometimes the programming algorithm would change after the PROM was released. Some process change would require a longer pulse width or a voltage change. I remember one time National Semiconductor had several production lots of bipolar PROMs that had a poor yield with the current algorithm. National asked the leading programmer companies to rush an update to customers. National could do this with 4 or 5 programmer companies, it couldn't happen with an update to a datasheet and expect every programmer to be updated. Michael Holley -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2012 12:41 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? Tony Duell wrote: > The way to make sure I program in correctly is to publsih the > programmign algorithm. Then I will follow that,. Sure, but they're not worried about *you*. They're worried about some random idiot, who *claims* to have followed the published algorithm, but somehow screwed up, and then wants to return an entire lot of EPROMs that he claims are of defective manufacture. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 26 02:13:42 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 00:13:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: delphi to C++ Message-ID: Does anyone here have any experience with using automated tools to convert Delphi source code to C++? I'm trying to convert a Delphi thing for Windows that does little more than spit a firmware image out a serial port into plain C and I'm not making much sense of the Delphi code. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Feb 25 19:29:28 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 20:29:28 -0500 Subject: KA694 FEPROM References: <4F477CCA.3010706@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44AEE08B8B5648588462472481F4D347@OptiplexGX620> Piotr, Corrupt firmware? Is this a message during boot? I don't have the maintenance manual handy, but to reload firmware a jumper must be set in the cpu faceplate, then boot and update via ethernet method. All that is required, I "think" is the firmware .sys file. Which seems to contain loader and firmware image. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "VCOMP" To: Sent: Friday, February 24, 2012 7:04 AM Subject: KA694 FEPROM > Hi All > For some time now, I'm a happy owner of a VAX 4000-705 system. > Unfortunately, it came with corrupted firmware, and I don't have > replacement KA694... In 'KA694 CPU System Maintenance' I found > information that there were FEPROM updates distributed (AFAIK it was > called Firmware Update Utility). Can someone on this list point me to a > source for that? Or at least the firmware image alone? > > TIA, > Piotr > From vcomp99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 06:40:40 2012 From: vcomp99 at gmail.com (VCOMP) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:40:40 +0100 Subject: KA694 FEPROM In-Reply-To: <44AEE08B8B5648588462472481F4D347@OptiplexGX620> References: <4F477CCA.3010706@gmail.com> <44AEE08B8B5648588462472481F4D347@OptiplexGX620> Message-ID: <4F4A2848.9060406@gmail.com> Hi Dan On 02/26/2012 02:29 AM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Piotr, > > Corrupt firmware? Is this a message during boot? > > I don't have the maintenance manual handy, but to reload firmware > a jumper must be set in the cpu faceplate, then boot and > update via ethernet method. > > All that is required, I "think" is the firmware .sys file. Which > seems to contain loader and firmware image. > > Dan No, during boot there is no message at all... Machine just hangs while performing system test... As for the update process, I found detailed description on a Cybrary mirror... The problem is, I can't find the .sys file you mentioned. Google searches returns nothing, HP/Compaq site hosts only VAX7000 firmware and the only place, where I would find the firmware, was never publicly available (cybrary.inet.cpqcorp.net). If, by a chance, you have the firmware image available, or know where I should ask, please let me know. I'd love to have this beast running... Best regards, Piotr From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Sun Feb 26 07:50:08 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:50:08 +0100 Subject: What is a "workstation"? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1330264208.5389.4.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-02-20 klockan 21:29 +0000 skrev Tony Duell: > > > > > SGI) as "deskside workstations". And rightly so, I would say: they're > > > specifically designed for workstation use. > > > > OK, > > > > WHAT IS A "WORKSTATION"? > > One old defintion was the '3M' one : Megapixel, Megabyte, MIPS. > > That is a personal system with a built-in bitmapped display with 1 > million pixels ; 1 megabyte of memory and 1 (VAX) MIPS of CPU performace. > > I did say it was an old definition :-) > > Incidentally, one of the first machiens to be conidered to be a > workstation, the PERQ, didn't quite meet that definition. The display 12 > 768*1024 pixels. > > -tony How about this: the capacity to in the current publishing sw display an easily readable A4 or folio format page of copy and being able to jump between pages without latency. Think about Frame/(that other big DTP package) on an Sun 1+ or Apollo ws. Current day manual writers/instruction booklet for your BMW or Scania truck, what do they use ? But this becomes mostly an question of sw architecture. The latency issue is a problem for current Word. From Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net Sun Feb 26 07:54:33 2012 From: Stefan.Skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:54:33 +0100 Subject: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1330264473.5389.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> m?n 2012-02-20 klockan 18:56 -0800 skrev Fred Cisin: > > There's also the apocraphyl story of a new fan unit showing up at the > > office---the Stratus noticed one of the existing fan units was marginal and > > had ordered itself a replacement. > > But, can you program it to also handle all of the institutional paperwork > and politics involved in such a purchase? > Can it negotiate with college administrators? Is there a defenestration > peripheral? > Defenestration of irritating administration (economy dept :-) ) people ? How many of you know what city coined the idiom defenestration ? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 26 11:04:23 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:04:23 +0000 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? Message-ID: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive track-to-track seek rates is? I'm finding myself having to modify the seek logic in the DiscFerret to accommodate the Seagate ST-277R RLL drive, which requires that buffered-seek pulses be spaced between 8 and 200 microseconds apart. Any more than that and it assumes you're doing a 'slow' seek at 10ms per step. At the moment the DiscFerret's step rates are set up in 250us intervals, with an 8-bit divider register. Seek rates can be between 250 microseconds and 64 milliseconds in this configuration. Feeding the ST277R the 250us step pulses... really screws it up. The drive deasserts READY and SEEK-COMPLETE and seems to freeze up completely. Hardly unexpected... If I change the seek clock to 125us, I get a minimum of 125us and a maximum of 32ms using the same divider. Is 32ms likely to be enough for even the slowest drives? Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy drive or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track seek rate was? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Feb 26 11:17:00 2012 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 09:17:00 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > Hi guys, > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > track-to-track seek rates is? > > I'm finding myself having to modify the seek logic in the DiscFerret to > accommodate the Seagate ST-277R RLL drive, which requires that > buffered-seek pulses be spaced between 8 and 200 microseconds apart. Any > more than that and it assumes you're doing a 'slow' seek at 10ms per step. > > At the moment the DiscFerret's step rates are set up in 250us intervals, > with an 8-bit divider register. Seek rates can be between 250 > microseconds and 64 milliseconds in this configuration. > > Feeding the ST277R the 250us step pulses... really screws it up. The > drive deasserts READY and SEEK-COMPLETE and seems to freeze up > completely. Hardly unexpected... > > If I change the seek clock to 125us, I get a minimum of 125us and a > maximum of 32ms using the same divider. > > Is 32ms likely to be enough for even the slowest drives? > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy drive > or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track seek > rate was? > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ Most of the drives I've seen with slow seeks will also do auto seek. This is much faster. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 12:22:33 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 10:22:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: defenestration (Was: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <1330264473.5389.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> <1330264473.5389.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> Message-ID: <20120226101522.A41145@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote: > Defenestration of irritating administration (economy dept :-) ) people ? > How many of you know what city coined the idiom defenestration ? I certainly can't say that I know Prague, never having been there. :-( During the famous defenestration, there were no fatalities! Those loyal to the defenestrees claimed divine intervention. Proponents of the defenestrators pointed out that landing in a maure pile makes a less than completely positive divine statement. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 13:05:46 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:05:46 +0000 Subject: UK versus US monitor question Message-ID: So, my UK101 sold for a healthy ?224, which I am very happy about indeed. However, it's to a buyer in the USA and he wants me to split the bundle and send just the computer - he does not want the monitor. He claims that although the computer will run on a 240-to-120V transformer, the monitor will not, as US DC is 60Hz and European is 50Hz. Is this correct? It's news to me. I don't really want to split the package up, TBH - I am not sure that the monitor is worth much on its own. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 13:27:16 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:27:16 -0500 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 26, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > So, my UK101 sold for a healthy ?224, which I am very happy about indeed. > > However, it's to a buyer in the USA and he wants me to split the > bundle and send just the computer - he does not want the monitor. > > He claims that although the computer will run on a 240-to-120V > transformer, the monitor will not, as US DC is 60Hz and European is > 50Hz. > > Is this correct? It's news to me. It's certainly true about US mains vs. UK mains. Whether or not it makes a difference for the monitor is another question, though the specs for the monitor will probably inform that. One can get mains transformers to convert 240v to 120v, but that obviously will not change the frequency of the AC. Most consumer equipment doesn't care that much, but plenty of things do; I would imagine most 50Hz gear would operate on 60Hz because it will reduce the ripple, but that is not universally true. Most clock radios, among other things, will function incorrectly because they use the zero crossing of the AC waveform as a clock, so if you move from 50Hz to 60Hz (or vice versa), you're off by a fifth or sixth. One possible solution is to run the monitor off a UPS; they sometimes convert the mains to DC and convert the DC to AC again, so if you had a UPS that would run off 240V at 60Hz, it might convert to 50Hz on the other end. It might not. It would depend on the UPS. Again, it's also possible that the monitor may run OK at 60Hz. Either way, I would imagine the monitor will cost a fortune to ship overseas. - Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 13:30:31 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:30:31 -0000 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam Proven > Sent: 26 February 2012 19:06 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: UK versus US monitor question > > > So, my UK101 sold for a healthy ?224, which I am very happy > about indeed. > > However, it's to a buyer in the USA and he wants me to split the > bundle and send just the computer - he does not want the monitor. > > He claims that although the computer will run on a 240-to-120V > transformer, the monitor will not, as US DC is 60Hz and European is > 50Hz. > > Is this correct? It's news to me. > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains frequency but I don't think that?s been the case since we went 625 line. Which Monitor was it? > I don't really want to split the package up, TBH - I am not sure that > the monitor is worth much on its own. > Prossibly trying to avoid shipping costs to the US. By default the UK101 produces 50Hz frame sync so he will need a monitor that syncs to 50Hz, not 60Hz as most US monitors do. From the brief web page I read the UK101 also produces PAL not NTSC so he will need a PAL monitor or tweak the UK101. > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 12:54:15 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:54:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Baluns [was Re: Atari CX2600A parts...] In-Reply-To: <201202251957.OAA05511@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse" at Feb 25, 12 02:57:43 pm Message-ID: > > >> [...] > > Which is a Balun in the true sense. A transfomer from the 75 Ohm > > unbalanced cable to the 300 ohm balanced TV input. > > Okay, now I'm curious. What's unbalanced about the one and balanced > about the other? (Of course, it quite possibly would be perfectly > obvious if I knew more about the relevant interfaces.) 'Unbalanced' is much the same thing as single-ended. Of the 2 wires involved, one is the signal, the other is ground. 'Balanced' is differential. The 2 wires both carry the signal in antiphase to each other, neither is ground. So a TV coaxail cable is unblaanced, in thatone of thew wires is th shield, wehich is grounded. A twin feeder is balanaced. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 12:57:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:57:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 25, 12 12:41:06 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > The way to make sure I program in correctly is to publsih the > > programmign algorithm. Then I will follow that,. > > Sure, but they're not worried about *you*. They're worried about some > random idiot, who *claims* to have followed the published algorithm, but > somehow screwed up, and then wants to return an entire lot of EPROMs > that he claims are of defective manufacture. I do wonder just how big a problem this would be... Good hobbyists are goign to be honest, and if they damage the chip are goign to say 'Oh d*mn' and go and buy another one. OK, there may be soem who try to return the chip for a free replacement, but the total number of chips inovlved is going to be fairly small (as a fraction of the totla production of said ICs). Hobbyists tend to use 1 or 2 ICs, not 1 or 2 thousand. And I would have though that hobbyists are the only group likely to take the time to attmpto to designed ap rogrammer. For any commerical organisation it's going to be a lot cheaper to buy a programmer than take the time to buuild one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 13:02:06 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:02:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <000c01ccf415$738c8020$5aa58060$@comcast.net> from "Michael Holley" at Feb 25, 12 03:30:24 pm Message-ID: > > I was an engineer at Data I/O from 1981 to 1997 and made numerous visits to > semiconductor companies. The semiconductor companies had a good business > reason for limiting access to the programming algorithms. The customers > expected the programmed PROMs to work over the entire temperature and > voltage range for the life of their products. They also expected a minimal > number of chips that failed programming. To achieve this, the semiconductor > companies would work with leading PROM programmer companies so they could > certify the programmer met there specs. If a customer programmed part with > one of these devices, the parts should meet all the specs and the > semiconductor would stand behind them. > > Data I/O would publish a "Wall Chart" listing the thousands of different > parts their programmers would handle and what revision of software and > hardware was needed. Sometimes the programming algorithm would change after > the PROM was released. Some process change would require a longer pulse > width or a voltage change. I remember one time National Semiconductor had > several production lots of bipolar PROMs that had a poor yield with the > current algorithm. National asked the leading programmer companies to rush > an update to customers. National could do this with 4 or 5 programmer > companies, it couldn't happen with an update to a datasheet and expect every > programmer to be updated. OK... And did these programmer manufacturers (Data I/O, Stag, etc) then automatically send out free updates to all owners of their programmers? If not, then there will be some (if not many) programmers out there that have not been updated. Perhaps the update cost $100 or soemthing and the company that owned the programmer said 'We don't need to buy that, we only ever use iot for 2764s and there update isn't needed for those'. And then later somebody tries to program another type of device o nit and has problems, for all it claims ot be a supported programmer. Gievn that the 'support' I've had from some manufacturers of such devices is not worth the paper it's written on, the on;y way to then know if the problem is with the IC or the programmer is to know how the IC should be programmer so that I can track down the problem with a 'socpe and logic analyser. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 13:44:31 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:44:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 26, 12 05:04:23 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > track-to-track seek rates is? > > I'm finding myself having to modify the seek logic in the DiscFerret to > accommodate the Seagate ST-277R RLL drive, which requires that > buffered-seek pulses be spaced between 8 and 200 microseconds apart. Any > more than that and it assumes you're doing a 'slow' seek at 10ms per step. A number of hard drives are like that. The worst one I've seen is the SA4000 (Shugart 14" winchester) where there's an aceptable speed range for 'buffered seeks' and a slower range for track-at-a-timne seeks. But if you get between them, the drive will mis-step and end up on the wrong cylinder. With no warning. > > At the moment the DiscFerret's step rates are set up in 250us intervals, > with an 8-bit divider register. Seek rates can be between 250 > microseconds and 64 milliseconds in this configuration. > > Feeding the ST277R the 250us step pulses... really screws it up. The > drive deasserts READY and SEEK-COMPLETE and seems to freeze up > completely. Hardly unexpected... > > If I change the seek clock to 125us, I get a minimum of 125us and a > maximum of 32ms using the same divider. > > Is 32ms likely to be enough for even the slowest drives? The slowest I have seen were some of the full-height 5.25" drives which had a 30ms seek time, So 32ms would eb OK for those. Is the problem in providng a greater reage of times the length of the divider or the numbero f bits needed to sleect the time? If the latter, I mighty be tempted to have a doubling series onece toy get to, say, 10ms (that is, have 10, 20, 40, 80 ms only). I can't think that would cause any problems. Most single-chipl FSCs only allowed for a few different step rants. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 14:03:41 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20120226102440.R41145@shell.lmi.net> > Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy drive > or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track seek > rate was? For 5.25" floppy drives: The Shugart SA400 had a 40ms track to track time. http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/SA400/SA400_Datasheet.pdf Anything much faster than that would have "popped the needle out of the groove" of the SPIRAL (NOT HELICAL) flat disk positioner (designed like a record (NOT "record" as in a file, but record as in ancient sound recording) It would be tempting to not bother supporting that, since the 35 tracks of the SA400 are a subset of the 40 tracks of any "360K" "standard" drive. BUT, the SA400 mechanism (SA390 without the logic board) was what Apple used for the Apple ][ drive. Eventually replaced by other drives. The need to recover data from disks that also have bad alignment might force the need to use the origianl drive. The Micropolis, with HELICAL LEAD SCREW was a little faster, and MUCH more reliable. Later drives, such as the MPI B51 (and eventually Tandon TM100) with split band positioner were much faster (5ms track to track) and more reliable in their stepping. Tandon TM100 became the defacto standard for 5.25" Qume-Trak 142 (5.25" half-height) broke the tradition of quick stepping. When used on the IBM "Portable" (luggable) and PC-Jr, When used at the default step times of PC-DOS 2.00, it would get excessive seek failures. It was actually one of the reasons why PC-DOS 2.00 had to be replaced with 2.10 (with slower step times). The first hit on Google claims 12ms, but at least the original early ones definitely could NOT manage better than about 25ms. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Feb 26 14:04:05 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:04:05 +0100 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <000c01ccf415$738c8020$5aa58060$@comcast.net> References: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> <000c01ccf415$738c8020$5aa58060$@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20120226200405.GD69148@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Michael Holley wrote: > I was an engineer at Data I/O from 1981 to 1997 and made numerous visits to > semiconductor companies. The semiconductor companies had a good business > reason for limiting access to the programming algorithms. The customers > expected the programmed PROMs to work over the entire temperature and > voltage range for the life of their products. They also expected a minimal > number of chips that failed programming. To achieve this, the semiconductor > companies would work with leading PROM programmer companies so they could > certify the programmer met there specs. If a customer programmed part with > one of these devices, the parts should meet all the specs and the > semiconductor would stand behind them. > > Data I/O would publish a "Wall Chart" listing the thousands of different > parts their programmers would handle and what revision of software and > hardware was needed. Sometimes the programming algorithm would change after > the PROM was released. Some process change would require a longer pulse > width or a voltage change. I remember one time National Semiconductor had > several production lots of bipolar PROMs that had a poor yield with the > current algorithm. National asked the leading programmer companies to rush > an update to customers. National could do this with 4 or 5 programmer > companies, it couldn't happen with an update to a datasheet and expect every > programmer to be updated. > > Michael Holley > Thanks Good that the semiconductor Manufacturers published the Algorithms to write to their RAMs ... :-) Sorry, but the above is Nonsense in my eyes. If they publish the datasheets, thy could inform companies that produced the programmers anyways to reach the end users. Ther isn't any benefit when they hold the algorithms secret. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:08:46 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:08:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 26, 12 07:05:46 pm Message-ID: > > So, my UK101 sold for a healthy =A3224, which I am very happy about indee= > d. I really am goign to have to look for another hobby... > > However, it's to a buyer in the USA and he wants me to split the > bundle and send just the computer - he does not want the monitor. > > He claims that although the computer will run on a 240-to-120V > transformer, the monitor will not, as US DC is 60Hz and European is > 50Hz. > > Is this correct? It's news to me. It's very likely to be incorrect. Yes, UK mains is 50Hz and US mains is 60Hz. Almost all monitors simply produce one or more DC rails from this [1]. Provided the PSU in the monitor will handle 60Hz -- and for any reasoable PSU design if it'll run on 50Hz mains it'l lrun on 60Hz mains --then the monitor would be fie on 240V 60Hz. If not, then it would be a fairly easy job to convert it. [1] An amazing number of small (12" or so) monochrome monitors, and not jeust TV tarte ones, produve 12V from the mains by one of a number of PSU circuits. This 12V is used to power the CRT heaters amd the lowe-power cirucitry, the high voltages for the CRT electrodes and the video output stage come fro mthe flyback transformer (itself powered from the 12V DC supply). If it's that sort of design it doesn't much matter where the 12V DC comes from. Do you knw othe make and model of the monitor, just in case one of us has ocme across it and has a scehamtic to hand? A seconadary issue is the vertical sync rreqeucny of the machine. TV cvertical rates are essentially the same as the main frequency i ntyhe country to prevent problems wither with the CRT image beating against the room lighing and cuasing flicker or to reduce the visible effects of ripple from the mains PSU gettign into the video circuitry. So if the buyer wishes to use the machine in the States he will presumably need a monitor that can handle 50Hz vertical. Most small mono monitors can, and in any case the mofification is not complicated. But I'd want to kepe the oroginal monitor if possible. > > I don't really want to split the package up, TBH - I am not sure that > the monitor is worth much on its own. I suspect the _real_ reason is that the monitor is ratehr more delicate than the rest of the machine, and would be fairly expnsive to ship. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 13:38:57 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 11:38:57 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F4A19D1.11855.A66DB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2012 at 17:04, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy > drive or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track > seek rate was? I don't know if it was the absolute slowest, but the early single- sided Micropolis drives (1015/16) were pretty darned slow--about 30 msec. track to track, if my memory is correct. You would actually wait a bit to get from track 77 to track 0. I suspect this was due to the 4-step per track scheme that Micropolis used. I just dredged up a copy of the driver that I did back in 1978 or so for a system. The WD1781 r1r0 bits were "11" for the positioning commands, so it seems as if 30 msec. is correct. Last-gasp Micropolis floppies actually used a buffered-seek positioning scheme--but it wasn't enough to save the line. Even the Memorex 650 drives were only 10 msec. track-to-track. There may be some super-low-cost drives used in typewriters or game consoles that were slower, but I'm not aware of any. That being said, the Micropolis drives were very consistent in their seeks and were nearly indestructible. And they were expensive. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 26 14:13:55 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 20:13:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: from "Dave" at Feb 26, 12 07:30:31 pm Message-ID: > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains frequency but I don't Was it? > think that=92s been the case since we went 625 line. Which Monitor was it= > ? Both 405 line (System A) and 625 line (System I) TVs over here have a 50Hz vertical scan rate (or close to it), but AFAIK they all synced to pluses i nthe video signal. Certainly the schemaitcs for systme A TVs that I've just looekd at confirm this. While there are advantages i nhavign the vertical scan rate cloe to the mains frequency, it's not requried, and you should ahve no problems running a 50Hz vertical monitor off 60Hz mains of vice versa if the PSU in the monitor can handle it. I've vertainly run plenty of US-spec montiors over here. > > > I don't really want to split the package up, TBH - I am not sure that > > the monitor is worth much on its own. > >=20 > > Prossibly trying to avoid shipping costs to the US. By default the UK101 > produces 50Hz frame sync so he will need a monitor that syncs to 50Hz, no= > t > 60Hz as most US monitors do. From the brief web page I read the UK101 als= > o > produces PAL not NTSC so he will need a PAL monitor or tweak the UK101.=20 Eh? I didn;t think the UK101 produced any form of colour output, which is what PAL would specify. Most likely that's a page that incorrectly uses 'PAL' to mean '50Hz vertical'. -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Feb 26 12:34:54 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:34:54 -0500 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F4A7B4E.7070608@verizon.net> On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > track-to-track seek rates is? > > I'm finding myself having to modify the seek logic in the DiscFerret to > accommodate the Seagate ST-277R RLL drive, which requires that > buffered-seek pulses be spaced between 8 and 200 microseconds apart. Any > more than that and it assumes you're doing a 'slow' seek at 10ms per step. > > At the moment the DiscFerret's step rates are set up in 250us intervals, > with an 8-bit divider register. Seek rates can be between 250 > microseconds and 64 milliseconds in this configuration. > > Feeding the ST277R the 250us step pulses... really screws it up. The > drive deasserts READY and SEEK-COMPLETE and seems to freeze up > completely. Hardly unexpected... > > If I change the seek clock to 125us, I get a minimum of 125us and a > maximum of 32ms using the same divider. > > Is 32ms likely to be enough for even the slowest drives? > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy drive > or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track seek > rate was? > > Thanks, slowest seeing floppy was the SA400 at 40ms though you could push them to 35. the ST506 was a stepper driven seek and if memory serves I used 6MS. However the SA4000 (8" HD) was slower. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 14:41:24 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:41:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120226200405.GD69148@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> References: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> <000c01ccf415$738c8020$5aa58060$@comcast.net> <20120226200405.GD69148@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Message-ID: <20120226123927.T41145@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > Thanks Good that the semiconductor Manufacturers published the Algorithms > to write to their RAMs ... :-) > Sorry, but the above is Nonsense in my eyes. > If they publish the datasheets, thy could inform companies that produced > the programmers anyways to reach the end users. > Ther isn't any benefit when they hold the algorithms secret. Who is it that they would WANT to withhold the information from as to how to properly use the parts??!? What are the undesirable consequences of "unauthorized" correct information??!? From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 26 14:43:47 2012 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:43:47 -0700 Subject: delphi to C++ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > Does anyone here have any experience with using automated tools to convert > Delphi source code to C++? The guy who designed Delphi designed C#. You're probably better off converting to C#. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Feb 26 12:35:23 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:35:23 -0500 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F4A7B6B.9080507@verizon.net> On 02/26/2012 12:04 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > track-to-track seek rates is? > > I'm finding myself having to modify the seek logic in the DiscFerret to > accommodate the Seagate ST-277R RLL drive, which requires that > buffered-seek pulses be spaced between 8 and 200 microseconds apart. Any > more than that and it assumes you're doing a 'slow' seek at 10ms per step. > > At the moment the DiscFerret's step rates are set up in 250us intervals, > with an 8-bit divider register. Seek rates can be between 250 > microseconds and 64 milliseconds in this configuration. > > Feeding the ST277R the 250us step pulses... really screws it up. The > drive deasserts READY and SEEK-COMPLETE and seems to freeze up > completely. Hardly unexpected... > > If I change the seek clock to 125us, I get a minimum of 125us and a > maximum of 32ms using the same divider. > > Is 32ms likely to be enough for even the slowest drives? > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy drive > or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track seek > rate was? > > Thanks, slowest seeking floppy was the SA400 at 40ms though you could push them to 35. the ST506 was a stepper driven seek and if memory serves I used 6MS. However the SA4000 (8" HD) was slower. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 14:54:53 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:54:53 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > track-to-track seek rates is? When I worked at Apparat around 1981, the company's main products were for the TRS-80. Shugart tried to get us to sell a cost-reduced floppy drive. I don't recall their model number, but it had two major differences from the normal SA400. It was built on a bent sheet metal frame instead of an aluminum casting, and instead of a stepper motor for head positioning, they used a solenoid mechanism similar to an 8-track player. The direction line on the interface did nothing, and each step pulse moved the positioner inward by one track, until it reached track 34. The next step pulse would cause the positioner to return to track 0. If I recall correctly, the normal track-to-track time was specified at around 400 ms, and the "restore" time at around 1000 ms. You couldn't use the normal seek and restore commands of a 1771/179x controller with this, so you had to rely on the step in command. Normal FDC drivers in TRSDOS, NEWDOS, etc. wouldn't work, so we would have had to supply a modified OS with it. Our conclusion was that even though the drive was slightly less expensive than a normal drive, there would be essentially *zero* customer demand for it. I don't think I've heard of a "real" floppy drive with more than 15 ms track-to-track seek time, nor an ST-506 interface drive with more than 5 ms. There is also a settling time required after a seek, which can be up to 15 ms, but that isn't required for each step. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 14:56:02 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:56:02 -0800 Subject: OT: defenestration (Was: What is a mainframe? (was Re: NASA unplugs last mainframe) In-Reply-To: <20120226101522.A41145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F421131.13927.B3DAF@cclist.sydex.com> <20120220221645.GC1565@brevard.conman.org> <20120220185338.F76316@shell.lmi.net> <1330264473.5389.6.camel@compaq.lokeldarn.hobby-site.org> <20120226101522.A41145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4A9C62.7010003@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Proponents of the defenestrators pointed out that landing in a maure > pile makes a less than completely positive divine statement. And contaminates the manure. From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sun Feb 26 10:46:21 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 11:46:21 -0500 Subject: KA694 FEPROM References: <4F477CCA.3010706@gmail.com> <44AEE08B8B5648588462472481F4D347@OptiplexGX620> <4F4A2848.9060406@gmail.com> Message-ID: Piotr, Found the KA694 maintenance manual. Looks as though powerup tests must finish to the console prompt in order to perform a firmware upgrade. What number do the tests freeze at? Below is a normal powerup sequence: KA694-A V2.4, VMB 2.15 Performing normal system tests. 70..69..68..67..66..65..64..63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55.. 54..53..52..51..50..49..48..47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39.. 38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23.. 22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07.. 06..05..04..03.. Tests completed. Loading system software. (BOOT/R5:0 DIA0) I have looked on Google for the firmware file, did not find it. Maybe try the comp.sys.dec or comp.os.vms newgroups for answers. I even looked in some old Condists for the file. Someone who came from DEC field service may be able to provide a solution. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "VCOMP" To: Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 7:40 AM Subject: Re: KA694 FEPROM > Hi Dan > > On 02/26/2012 02:29 AM, Daniel Snyder wrote: >> Piotr, >> >> Corrupt firmware? Is this a message during boot? >> >> I don't have the maintenance manual handy, but to reload firmware >> a jumper must be set in the cpu faceplate, then boot and >> update via ethernet method. >> >> All that is required, I "think" is the firmware .sys file. Which >> seems to contain loader and firmware image. >> >> Dan > No, during boot there is no message at all... Machine just hangs while > performing system test... > As for the update process, I found detailed description on a Cybrary > mirror... The problem is, I can't find the .sys file you mentioned. Google > searches returns nothing, HP/Compaq site hosts only VAX7000 firmware and > the only place, where I would find the firmware, was never publicly > available (cybrary.inet.cpqcorp.net). > If, by a chance, you have the firmware image available, or know where I > should ask, please let me know. I'd love to have this beast running... > > Best regards, > Piotr > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 14:59:17 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:59:17 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4A9D25.9050009@brouhaha.com> On 02/26/2012 10:57 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> The way to make sure I program in correctly is to publsih the >>> programmign algorithm. Then I will follow that,. >> Sure, but they're not worried about *you*. They're worried about some >> random idiot, who *claims* to have followed the published algorithm, but >> somehow screwed up, and then wants to return an entire lot of EPROMs >> that he claims are of defective manufacture. > I do wonder just how big a problem this would be... > > Good hobbyists are goign to be honest, and if they damage the chip are > goign to say 'Oh d*mn' and go and buy another one. > > OK, there may be soem who try to return the chip for a free replacement, > but the total number of chips inovlved is going to be fairly small (as a > fraction of the totla production of said ICs). Hobbyists tend to use 1 or > 2 ICs, not 1 or 2 thousand. > They're worried about the idiot that builds a one-off programmer for use in production, and doesn't test it thoroughly, and then destroys hundreds or thousands of chips. And yes, that *does* happen. I've seen the evidence of it on two different occasions. And yes, the people involved did try to return the chips and claim that they were defective. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 14:59:42 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:59:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A19D1.11855.A66DB6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> <4F4A19D1.11855.A66DB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20120226125726.N41145@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't know if it was the absolute slowest, but the early single- > sided Micropolis drives (1015/16) were pretty darned slow--about 30 > msec. track to track, if my memory is correct. Certainly quite slow, but not as slow as 40ms Shugart SA400 > You would actually > wait a bit to get from track 77 to track 0. I suspect this was due > to the 4-step per track scheme that Micropolis used. Yes, but it ended up positioned right for the track. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 15:08:46 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:08:46 -0000 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <30794BF3E55E4C35974A4B58C05430CD@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 26 February 2012 20:14 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: UK versus US monitor question > > > > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains > frequency but I don't > > Was it? A long time ago... > > > think that=92s been the case since we went 625 line. Which > Monitor was it= > > ? > > Both 405 line (System A) and 625 line (System I) TVs over here have a > 50Hz vertical scan rate (or close to it), but AFAIK they all > synced to > pluses i nthe video signal. Certainly the schemaitcs for systme A TVs > that I've just looekd at confirm this. > > While there are advantages i nhavign the vertical scan rate > cloe to the > mains frequency, it's not requried, and you should ahve no problems > running a 50Hz vertical monitor off 60Hz mains of vice versa > if the PSU > in the monitor can handle it. I've vertainly run plenty of US-spec > montiors over here. > > > > > > I don't really want to split the package up, TBH - I am > not sure that > > > the monitor is worth much on its own. > > >=20 > > > > Prossibly trying to avoid shipping costs to the US. By > default the UK101 > > produces 50Hz frame sync so he will need a monitor that > syncs to 50Hz, no= > > t > > 60Hz as most US monitors do. From the brief web page I read > the UK101 als= > > o > > produces PAL not NTSC so he will need a PAL monitor or > tweak the UK101.=20 > > Eh? I didn;t think the UK101 produced any form of colour > output, which is > what PAL would specify. Most likely that's a page that > incorrectly uses > 'PAL' to mean '50Hz vertical'. Your right now I have re-read it. 625line Black & White... > > -tony > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 15:10:03 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:10:03 -0800 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4A9FAB.30007@brouhaha.com> Dave wrote: > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains frequency but I > don't think that?s been the case since we went 625 line. Despite some claims, I've never seen credible evidence of the existence of a TV that "synced to the mains frequency", even for the 405-line system. I think it's an urban legend. TVs sync to the recovered vertical sync pulse of the incoming video signal. It's certainly possible that a TV designed for 60 Hz mains might have a power supply that has problems with 50 Hz, and rather less likely the other way around, but that has nothing to do with the field rate of the video signal, which has no inherent synchronization to the mains. There are, on the other hand, several reasons why the broadcast field rate iwas chosen to be the same as the mains frequency. However, even those reasons are questionable, since NTSC color broadcasting has always been done with a field rate that is 0.1% lower than the mains frequency, yet the slow beat between the mains frequency and the field rate has never caused a problem. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Feb 26 14:53:37 2012 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 12:53:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: delphi to C++ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, David Griffith wrote: > > Does anyone here have any experience with using automated tools to convert > Delphi source code to C++? I'm trying to convert a Delphi thing for Windows > that does little more than spit a firmware image out a serial port into plain > C and I'm not making much sense of the Delphi code. If you're trying to improve it, you need to go C++ -> Delphi, not the other way around. :) I can look at the Delphi code for you if you like. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Buying desktop hardware and installing a server OS doesn't make a server-class system any more than sitting in a puddle makes you a duck. [Cipher in a.s.r] From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM Sun Feb 26 15:30:16 2012 From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:30:16 -0500 Subject: S-100 6502 CPU board and S-100 8086 CPU board PCBs Message-ID: <003101ccf4cd$e1bb8e20$a532aa60$@YAHOO.COM> Hi! I have 9 remaining S-100 6502 CPU board PCBs and 6 remaining S-100 8086 CPU board PCBs. My stock of S-100 PCBs are starting to dwindle so if you are considering getting one or both of these PCBs now would be a good time. Both 6502 and 8086 CPU boards for S-100 bus are fairly uncommon in the usual market places like eBay, etc. They are $20 each plus $3 shipping and $6 elsewhere. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 15:56:58 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 13:56:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120226134807.M41145@shell.lmi.net> > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > > track-to-track seek rates is? On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > When I worked at Apparat around 1981, the company's main products were > for the TRS-80. One of the things that I remember about Apparat (slightly before that) was that NewDOS (was it only in NewDos80, or all the way back to APRDOS?) gave the user the capability to set the step time, to be able to take advantage of the 5ms step time of the Tandon, etc. drives, rather than have to always step everything at 40ms to be able to handle the original SA400 (the original drive shipped with TRS80). > Shugart tried to get us to sell a cost-reduced floppy drive. "cost-reduced" is a helluva euphemism for POS! > Our conclusion was that even though the drive was slightly less > expensive than a normal drive, there would be essentially *zero* > customer demand for it. We did have one administrator pushing HARD to have us switch the entire TRS80 lab over to using Exatron "Stringy Floppy"! Sometimes people will put up with amazing things to save a few pennies! > I don't think I've heard of a "real" floppy drive with more than 15 ms > track-to-track seek time, SA400 (at 40ms) was still considered to be a "real" drive in those days, but not for much longer. [Did I give you my Micropolis 35 track with one of my model 1s?] From holm at freibergnet.de Sun Feb 26 16:26:49 2012 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 23:26:49 +0100 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120226123927.T41145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F494762.8080206@brouhaha.com> <000c01ccf415$738c8020$5aa58060$@comcast.net> <20120226200405.GD69148@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> <20120226123927.T41145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20120226222648.GE70656@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > Thanks Good that the semiconductor Manufacturers published the Algorithms > > to write to their RAMs ... :-) > > Sorry, but the above is Nonsense in my eyes. > > If they publish the datasheets, thy could inform companies that produced > > the programmers anyways to reach the end users. > > Ther isn't any benefit when they hold the algorithms secret. > > Who is it that they would WANT to withhold the information from as to how > to properly use the parts??!? What are the undesirable consequences of > "unauthorized" correct information??!? > > Yea, try asking this the manufacturers of GALs, CPLDs and FPGAs. Exactly the same thing. Nobody is telling you how the bitstream for an FPGA is to be build. Nevertheless, I want to use already obsolete technology for hobbyist use, but thy couldn't deliver the needed information ANYMORE, since they had no documentation for the parts anymore, at least at Cypress. The new owner of the EPROM facility don't even answered.. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 26 16:33:47 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 22:33:47 +0000 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4AB34B.7040109@philpem.me.uk> On 26/02/12 19:44, Tony Duell wrote: > A number of hard drives are like that. The worst one I've seen is the > SA4000 (Shugart 14" winchester) where there's an aceptable speed range > for 'buffered seeks' and a slower range for track-at-a-timne seeks. But > if you get between them, the drive will mis-step and end up on the wrong > cylinder. With no warning. Oh, this one has a great failure mode. If you seek at 300us/step, the drive sits there as dead as a doornail until you power-cycle it... INDEX pulses, but READY and SEEK_COMPLETE are stuck inactive... I suspect it'll probably reset if you do a deselect-and-reselect, though I haven't tried that yet. What I'd really like is a copy of the ST277R OEM manual (aka Product Manual)... I bet I'm doing something that it doesn't like. The 'seek wraparound' feature is a nice touch. Seek past the maximum cylinder, and it seeks back to track 0. Bleh. The CDC Wren and Alps 20MB (rebadged as Amstrad) just flag a seek error and wait for a deselect/reselect cycle. > Is the problem in providng a greater reage of times the length of the > divider or the numbero f bits needed to sleect the time? If the latter, I > mighty be tempted to have a doubling series onece toy get to, say, 10ms > (that is, have 10, 20, 40, 80 ms only). I can't think that would cause > any problems. The main issue is getting enough resolution to specify the 'buffered seek' step rates while still being able to specify the tens-of-milliseconds values needed for slower drives. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 16:49:33 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 14:49:33 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <20120226125726.N41145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk>, <4F4A19D1.11855.A66DB6@cclist.sydex.com>, <20120226125726.N41145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4A467D.29319.154EE80@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2012 at 12:59, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I don't know if it was the absolute slowest, but the early single- > > sided Micropolis drives (1015/16) were pretty darned slow--about 30 > > msec. track to track, if my memory is correct. > > Certainly quite slow, but not as slow as 40ms Shugart SA400 I'd forgotten about the stupid 35-cylinder SA400 and the cam-follower scheme. I hated it. It seems odd that anything could be slower than a 4-step per cylinder positioner, but there you go. What's strange is that at the time, most, if anot all 8" drives positioned faster, and some even used a voice-coil setup. And you're right--after things had worn in a little bit, the positioner was a little less than accurate. The usual procedure in case of error was to recalibrate (return to track 0), seek to cylinder, retry 3 times; recalibrate and then to seek one cylinder past the target and then step one back, then repeat 3 times; finally, recalibrate then seek to one cylinder just before the targe cylinder, then pause for a rev., then step one cylinder in and retry. All of this to battle the backlash in the positioner mechanism. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 17:18:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:18:45 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <20120226134807.M41145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> <20120226134807.M41145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4ABDD5.9000907@brouhaha.com> On 02/26/2012 01:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > One of the things that I remember about Apparat (slightly before that) > was that NewDOS (was it only in NewDos80, or all the way back to > APRDOS?) gave the user the capability to set the step time, to be able > to take advantage of the 5ms step time of the Tandon, etc. drives, > rather than have to always step everything at 40ms to be able to > handle the original SA400 (the original drive shipped with TRS80). IIRC, NEWDOS/80 allowed the step rate to be changed on a per-drive basis using the PDRIVE command. In fact, you could change an amazing number of parameters for the drive or the filesystem format using that command. I don't think NEWDOS had such a command, though there might have been ZAPs (patches) to change the step rate globally. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 17:19:26 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:19:26 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <20120226134807.M41145@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> <20120226134807.M41145@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4ABDFE.1010706@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > [Did I give you my Micropolis 35 track with one of my model 1s?] I don't think so. There was a hole in the monitor where a floppy drive had previously been fitted. From fraveydank at gmail.com Sun Feb 26 17:35:39 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:35:39 -0500 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4F4A9FAB.30007@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4A9FAB.30007@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <37AEEF47-99F6-4D42-929A-F3233A410658@gmail.com> On Feb 26, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave wrote: >> It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains frequency but I don't think that?s been the case since we went 625 line. > Despite some claims, I've never seen credible evidence of the existence of a TV that "synced to the mains frequency", even for the 405-line system. I think it's an urban legend. TVs sync to the recovered vertical sync pulse of the incoming video signal. Indeed, I doubt it would even work. It would require your video generator to be in sync with the mains frequency, which is something I'd find unlikely at best even before we dropped the frequency for NTSC color video. - Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 17:37:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 15:37:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4ABDFE.1010706@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4A6617.2070207@philpem.me.uk> <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> <20120226134807.M41145@shell.lmi.net> <4F4ABDFE.1010706@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120226153354.D51905@shell.lmi.net> > > [Did I give you my Micropolis 35 track with one of my model 1s?] On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > I don't think so. There was a hole in the monitor where a floppy drive > had previously been fitted. I had at one point had a TM100 in that one. My Micropolis was in a stand-alone horizontal single drive (blue) case/ps made by Micropolis. I never got around to trying the Micropolis OS (that had come with it) on the TRS80 :-( From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Feb 26 18:44:59 2012 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 16:44:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined Message-ID: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have been scanning and OCRing BYTE magazines, and so far have a stack two feet tall of magazines which have been de-spined with a large paper cutter. Dates are from 1978 to 1987 - not all issues are present. They are free to anyone who wants to pick-up or pay shipping. They are in southern California, Orange County, 92656 I have half as many which have NOT been de-spined, and are intact - someone else has already scanned those issues, so I won't cut up mine, but will still give them away - nothing earlier than 1980 though. Steve. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 26 19:57:39 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 17:57:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F4A9D25.9050009@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4A9D25.9050009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20120226175615.G51905@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > They're worried about the idiot that builds a one-off programmer for use > in production, and doesn't test it thoroughly, and then destroys > hundreds or thousands of chips. > And yes, that *does* happen. I've seen the evidence of it on two > different occasions. And yes, the people involved did try to return the > chips and claim that they were defective. It's too bad that the only way that they can come up with to prevent abuse is to prevent anybody from building a programming device except under close supervision. There must be a better way! From david at classiccomputing.com Sun Feb 26 20:00:54 2012 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:00:54 -0500 Subject: A new, unique Apple podcast In-Reply-To: <41FE618D-70B4-43C3-A8FA-D4B86B446209@classiccomputing.com> References: <41FE618D-70B4-43C3-A8FA-D4B86B446209@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <92C03A49-20EA-4B0C-AA8D-100287F2D46C@classiccomputing.com> Hi everyone, Blake Patterson of blakespot.com / toucharcade.com and myself have launched a new biweekly podcast that looks at the Apple company and it's products of today, balanced with discussion and comparison / contrast to the Apple of the past. I hope you all will give it a listen - http://notanotherapplepodcast.com/ Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Author - "The Complete Historically Brewed" - computer history nostalgia book - on sale now - http://www.classiccomputing.com - Classic Computing Blog - Retro Computing Roundtable podcast - "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast - Classic Computing podcast From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 26 20:22:00 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 21:22:00 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120226175615.G51905@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F4A9D25.9050009@brouhaha.com> <20120226175615.G51905@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201202270222.VAA01689@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> They're worried about the idiot that builds a one-off programmer for >> use in production, and doesn't test it thoroughly, and then destroys >> hundreds or thousands of chips. [...this does happen...] > It's too bad that the only way that they can come up with to prevent > abuse is to prevent anybody from building a programming device except > under close supervision. There must be a better way! Of course there's a better way. I'm not sure there's a better way for someone who wants to do business in the USA today, though; I wrote a rant here, but on reflection it's probably inappropriate. About the best I've come up with: publish nothing officially but leak the data in some plausibly deniable way, so that it's not difficult to find for the likes of us here but is sufficiently dodgy-looking to scare off anyone contemplating depending on it in a corporate production environment? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 26 20:34:55 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:34:55 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <201202270222.VAA01689@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: , <20120226175615.G51905@shell.lmi.net>, <201202270222.VAA01689@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4F4A7B4F.26487.2234011@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Feb 2012 at 21:22, Mouse wrote: > Of course there's a better way. I'm not sure there's a better way for > someone who wants to do business in the USA today, though; I wrote a > rant here, but on reflection it's probably inappropriate. It seems that occasionally, as device production gets passed around that the knowledge becomes unavailable to just about anyone. c.f. My query about programming algorithms for PALCE devices. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 26 20:36:40 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 18:36:40 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120226175615.G51905@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F4A9D25.9050009@brouhaha.com> <20120226175615.G51905@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4AEC38.8070201@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > It's too bad that the only way that they can come up with to prevent > abuse is to prevent anybody from building a programming device except > under close supervision. There must be a better way! The better way that is being used now is to embed the programming algorithm in the device itself, so you feed the data to it in a relatively non-critical way, and the device programs itself. For most current devices, getting the "programming algorithm", i.e., how to present the data and tell it to program itself, is not difficult. The other part that people complain about is not knowing the meaning of the programming data stream for a CPLD or FPGA., and only being able to get that data stream by using the vendor's proprietary tools. That's a different problem, and there are even more reasons for that than there were for not publishing programming algorithms. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 26 21:39:41 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 19:39:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: delphi to C++ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Sun, 26 Feb 2012, David Griffith wrote: > >> Does anyone here have any experience with using automated tools to convert >> Delphi source code to C++? I'm trying to convert a Delphi thing for >> Windows that does little more than spit a firmware image out a serial port >> into plain C and I'm not making much sense of the Delphi code. > > If you're trying to improve it, you need to go C++ -> Delphi, not the other > way around. :) > > I can look at the Delphi code for you if you like. Thanks. Source code sent. The program seems to just start an XMODEM session with the target device so I'm just trying to distill it to the absolute basics. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Feb 26 23:44:08 2012 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 00:44:08 -0500 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... References: Message-ID: Original Message: Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 19:15:37 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > IIRC tjhat switchbox contains what we (in the UK) call a 'Balun'. I am > > not sure if that term has crossed the Pond, it's an abreviation of > > 'Balanced <-> Unbalanced'. > > In the US, the term "balun" is not used by the general public. It's used Ove here, the 'genral public' wouldnt' know what a matching transformer was used for :-) ----- Not just the general public; when one of my tenants had cable TV installed recently the installer told her that she'd have to buy a new second TV because her perfectly good 300-Ohm-only TV was not compatible with the coax from the converter box... From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 27 00:46:43 2012 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 26 Feb 2012 22:46:43 -0800 Subject: uVax II / III boards offered Message-ID: <2EFA573AD8D.00000058n0body.h0me@inbox.com> I'm divesting myself of most of my q-bus stuff, starting with the uVax board sets. M7169 - 4-plane video controller module M7168 - 4-plane color bitmap module (x2) M7622 - 16-Mbyte RAM for KA650 (MicroVAX III) (x2) M7625 - MicroVAX III CPU (workstation license), 60nS M7606-EF Microvax II CPU M7609 - 8-Mbyte parity 36-bit RAM for KA630 (MicroVAX II) (x2) I also have the cable for the video card, and a couple of those switch panels for the CPU's I just need to unload this, make me an offer; would prefer to sell the lot. I could also be bribed to ship this internationally; make me a good offer, and maybe we can cut a deal. Shipping will be from STockton, CA 95212 (USA) ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Feb 27 03:17:18 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 10:17:18 +0100 Subject: 12k-Zapple-BASIC commented Message-ID: <4F4B4A1E.9000508@iais.fraunhofer.de> Hi all, several weeks ago someone asked for a Z80 BASIC, and my recommendation was the 12K Extended BASIC from TDL. I got several offline queries where to obtain this. I myself knew of a hex dump in a German Book (published there for academical and amateur purposes "because the company does not exist anymore"; the book was from 1982). Under this premise I disassembled the hex dump and commented (almost) all code. I'll make this commenting work available to anyone who is interested. I don't publish it on a web page (I don't think I need one), but since the disassembly and my comments are CC-BY-SA, anyone else may feel free to do so. Send me a request offline to receive a ZIP file (86k) with the listing and the hex dump. -- Holger From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Mon Feb 27 07:43:14 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 13:43:14 +0000 Subject: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined In-Reply-To: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Are the scanned/ocd'ed images available? Thanks! -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steven stengel Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2012 6:45 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined I have been scanning and OCRing BYTE magazines, and so far have a stack two feet tall of magazines which have been de-spined with a large paper cutter. Dates are from 1978 to 1987 - not all issues are present. They are free to anyone who wants to pick-up or pay shipping. They are in southern California, Orange County, 92656 I have half as many which have NOT been de-spined, and are intact - someone else has already scanned those issues, so I won't cut up mine, but will still give them away - nothing earlier than 1980 though. Steve. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 07:58:20 2012 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 07:58:20 -0600 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4B8BFC.2000504@gmail.com> On 02/26/2012 02:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I suspect the _real_ reason is that the monitor is ratehr more delicate > than the rest of the machine, and would be fairly expnsive to ship. Delicate and heavy... but I think the issue of hooking a display intended for NTSC up to a system designed to produce PAL is a bigger one, surely? I'm expecting that's going to bite me with a lot of my collection when I eventually ship it over to the US (although one of the things coming over will be an ACW, so at least I'll be able to tap into its built-in display for some systems if needed) cheers Jules From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Mon Feb 27 10:28:55 2012 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 08:28:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Here is an article written by?Jon Gertner who is writing the book ?The Idea Factory: Bell Labs and the Great Age of American Innovation.? For those who remember Bell Labs, you might enjoy the article. http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/innovation-and-the-bell-labs-miracle.html From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Feb 27 09:52:57 2012 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:52:57 +0100 Subject: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <4F4BA6D9.4080006@iais.fraunhofer.de> Am 27.02.2012 14:43, schrieb Bob Brown: > Are the scanned/ocd'ed images available? > Thanks! > -Bob Follow this thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/167235-byte-magazine/ -- Holger From schontman at ymail.com Mon Feb 27 09:54:47 2012 From: schontman at ymail.com (Johannes Schontman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 15:54:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret broken? Message-ID: <1330358087.28372.YahooMailNeo@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Hello all! I have been reading this list some time now. I have a Atari 8 + 16bit collection with hundreds floppies 5.25 and 3.5. I followed the post here about disk imaging and have seen Discferret and Kyroflux. Both look good to me but I use Linux so like the idea of getting a Discferret because its open source. However I found: http://www.fpgarelated.com/usenet/fpga/show/105048-1.php To me this looks Discferret has a problem with either race condition (pulse lost) or ambiguity (two encodings meaning same) and to me this looks this problem is valid for all dumps already made. I talked to other guys from engineering classes and one suggest using 12bits (instead of 8) for counter but this would mean having to few RAMs on the board. Does that mean to better not get a Discferret? Has anyone heard of problems with Kyroflux? Want to start making images soon. Greetings -- Jo From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 12:10:19 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:10:19 +0000 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 26 February 2012 20:08, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> So, my UK101 sold for a healthy =A3224, which I am very happy about indee= >> d. > > I really am goign to have to look for another hobby... (?) > Do you knw othe make and model of the monitor, just in case one of us has > ocme across it and has a scehamtic to hand? >From the listing: ? A little more info about the screen & its box. NB. I am not sure this is the original box for the screen. The CRT is in what must be the original polystyrene packing foam, and this fits snugly into the box but protrudes slightly. However, visibly, when the box was sealed, the contents did bulge out of the top. The flaps were torn open and part is missing, but they did not close 100% even when new. The following text is printed (quite roughly) on the monitor box: XM226 16 9204 MOTOROLA DATA PRODUCTS #155 HARVESTER RD., WEST CHGO, IL. 60185 TO: REDIFON COMPUTERS LTD 17-27 KELVIN WAY CRAWLEY, SUSSEX ENGLAND RH13 2LY PO# RA27731 FO# I100416 And the following is handwritten: 200K pot 040.012-0 There is also the tattered remains of what I think is a shipping label, slightly slug- or snail-eaten. ? Googling the model number bizarrely gives me this repost: http://www.holidays.net/store/Complete-Compukit-UK101-with-case,-VDU,-manual-%26-demo-cassette_270918417815.html That is bizarre and annoying. Anyway, it's a Motorola XM226-16, service #HS.01620-006, serial #9200 5237, manufactured July 1979. > I suspect the _real_ reason is that the monitor is ratehr more delicate > than the rest of the machine, and would be fairly expnsive to ship. Indeed. And I don't really want to split it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 27 13:01:37 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 19:01:37 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <1330358087.28372.YahooMailNeo@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <1330358087.28372.YahooMailNeo@web27401.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F4BD311.6000708@philpem.me.uk> On 27/02/12 15:54, Johannes Schontman wrote: > http://www.fpgarelated.com/usenet/fpga/show/105048-1.php > > To me this looks Discferret has a problem with either race condition > (pulse lost) or ambiguity (two encodings meaning same) and to me this > looks this problem is valid for all dumps already made. I talked to > other guys from engineering classes and one suggest using 12bits > (instead of 8) for counter but this would mean having to few RAMs on > the board. Does that mean to better not get a Discferret? Has anyone > heard of problems with Kyroflux? Want to start making images soon. OK, I'm going to stay out of the Kryoflux argument -- I'm the lead developer for DiscFerret, and developed the entire hardware design, microcode, and a good sized chunk of the software. My commenting on a competitor's product would be extremely unprofessional. There was a discussion about this on-list a few months ago -- First message: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2011-October/127396.html Rest of the thread: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2011-November/thread.html#127525 The bug you mention was a timer ambiguity error which was detected and rectified in.. I think it was Release 0028 of the microcode image. All current versions of the DiscFerret C API and Microcode image have this fix. Basically, what happened was that if a data pulse immediately followed a carry, a zero value would be stored in the RAM. Zero was a special value used to signify a carry. If a pulse landed right on top of a carry, the pulse would be missed completely -- you'd get the carry, but no timing value would be stored. To fix this: * The entire disc reader engine was torn apart and rewritten. * The data storage format has been changed completely to allow the storage of index position to 10ns resolution (previously the state of the index line was stored with each timing or carry store). These changes also remove the carry ambiguity. * The carry ambiguity issue was completely resolved. * A testbench was written. This is run every time a change is made to the read logic, and makes sure that all count values from 0 to 65535 generate the correct data streams. This includes several "impossible" data streams which shouldn't be able to get past the DiscFerret's I/O buffer hardware. I've done extensive testing on this, and I'm going to be absolutely honest here: I can't prove that there aren't any bugs, but I can prove that *the bugs I know about* aren't present. If a bug is found, a testbench is written. ALL testbenches have to pass before a release is made. Commits to the Mercurial (SCM) repositories don't follow this rule and should be considered to be alpha quality at best. Final releases on the Discferret website (on the downloads page) HAVE been run through the testbenches and can be considered production ready. If you have any further questions, please feel free to ask. Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 27 13:06:40 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 11:06:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120227110528.G91848@shell.lmi.net> > > In the US, the term "balun" is not used by the general public. It's used On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, MikeS wrote: > Ove here, the 'genral public' wouldnt' know what a matching transformer > was used for :-) "A transformer is a robot that changes shape between humanoid and other machines." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 14:24:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:24:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <20120226102440.R41145@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 26, 12 12:03:41 pm Message-ID: > For 5.25" floppy drives: > The Shugart SA400 had a 40ms track to track time. > http://www.swtpc.com/mholley/SA400/SA400_Datasheet.pdf That was a _really_ horrible design. Whoever came up with it needs to be shown the clue-by-four.... > Anything much faster than that would have "popped the needle out of the > groove" of the SPIRAL (NOT HELICAL) flat disk positioner (designed like a > record (NOT "record" as in a file, but record as in ancient sound > recording) Actually an _ancient_ sound recording might well be a helical track (think 'wax cylinder' or similar). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 14:30:00 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:30:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120226200405.GD69148@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> from "Holm Tiffe" at Feb 26, 12 09:04:05 pm Message-ID: > Thanks Good that the semiconductor Manufacturers published the Algorithms > to write to their RAMs ... :-) Be careful... I've come across ICs where the full data sheet, needed to use the part in a normal circuit (and not, for example to program it before using it) is covered by an NDA. > > Sorry, but the above is Nonsense in my eyes. And in mine. > If they publish the datasheets, thy could inform companies that produced > the programmers anyways to reach the end users. > Ther isn't any benefit when they hold the algorithms secret. If the hold the algorithm,s secret and soemthing doesn;t work (even if you are usign an apporved programmer) then you have no way of knowing what the problem is. And I am certain;y not happy with that. Surely the thing to do is to publsijh the inforamtion but make it clear it's not supported and that the IC is only gauranteed if you use the apporved programmer, If you build a porgrammer you're on your own. OK, some people will try to cheat. If it's a hbbyist with 1 or 2 ICs, the simplest thing is to replace them -- the first time. It's peanuts to the company to do that. The second time you start asking questions as to why he's so unlucky wen nobody else has problems. If it's a company that's progerammed afew thosand parts and is having problems, you send somebody round to demonstrate what htey are doing. And if they're not using an approved programmer, that;'s the end of it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 14:36:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:36:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <20120226123927.T41145@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 26, 12 12:41:24 pm Message-ID: > Who is it that they would WANT to withhold the information from as to how > to properly use the parts??!? What are the undesirable consequences of > "unauthorized" correct information??!? Yo uand I will nevr understnad how big companies think (or fail to think). Presumably it's the same reason for not supplying complete and accurate service manuals with full schematics. Not supplying spare parts for 'safety reasons' (I've got news for you. It can;'t be less safe for me to repair somethng with the right parts than for me to have to werk out the imporat characteristics of said parts and make soethign that will work). It's probably the same reaso nthat British and European standards docuemts are very expensiv (I was told the full set of standards for the 'kettle plug' connector would cost be well over \pounds 1000). Apparently if they were cheap then people would be encouraged to distribute modified versions and nobody would be sure they had the origianl standard. Come again? The way to make sure eveyon has the original unmodified standard docuemtn is to make that docuemtn aviaalbel for free/low cost. Then people wil lget the origianl. But as I said we'll never understand such people. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 15:07:01 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:07:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A467D.29319.154EE80@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 26, 12 02:49:33 pm Message-ID: > What's strange is that at the time, most, if anot all 8" drives > positioned faster, and some even used a voice-coil setup. The Persci? Lovely drives!. Were there any other 8" voice coil floppy drivces made? I only ever came across one 5.25" drive with a sort-of voice coil mechanism (not quite the same mechancially, but very much the same principle) and that was the Epson 1/3rd height ones used i ntheTF20, QX10, etc. Again really nice drives. I have never seen a 3.5" or 3" floppy drive with a voice coil positioner. Were there any? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 14:41:19 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:41:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: <4F4A9C1D.2010500@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 26, 12 12:54:53 pm Message-ID: > > Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > > track-to-track seek rates is? > When I worked at Apparat around 1981, the company's main products were > for the TRS-80. Shugart tried to get us to sell a cost-reduced floppy > drive. I don't recall their model number, but it had two major Lets see.. Suhgart cam up with that spiral disk positioned that Fred mentioned They came up wit hte SA4000 hard disk which has a lovely bit of misdesign in the logic meaning it will end up o nthe wrong track if you feed it stepping pulses that are too slow for buffered seeks but too fast for individual seeks And then they come up with this.... ARGH! > differences from the normal SA400. It was built on a bent sheet metal > frame instead of an aluminum casting, and instead of a stepper motor for > head positioning, they used a solenoid mechanism similar to an 8-track > player. The direction line on the interface did nothing, and each step > pulse moved the positioner inward by one track, until it reached track > 34. The next step pulse would cause the positioner to return to track 0. That;'s horrible!. DOes anybody have one? I would actually quite like one, not to use for storign data but to demonstate as a way not to design things... > If I recall correctly, the normal track-to-track time was specified at > around 400 ms, and the "restore" time at around 1000 ms. > > You couldn't use the normal seek and restore commands of a 1771/179x > controller with this, so you had to rely on the step in command. Normal > FDC drivers in TRSDOS, NEWDOS, etc. wouldn't work, so we would have had > to supply a modified OS with it. > > Our conclusion was that even though the drive was slightly less > expensive than a normal drive, there would be essentially *zero* > customer demand for it. Given tha all copy-protected software would break, any self-booting disk would break, disk untilites would break, any OS you didn;t supoort would break, etc, I can understand that! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 14:44:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:44:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F4A9D25.9050009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 26, 12 12:59:17 pm Message-ID: > They're worried about the idiot that builds a one-off programmer for use > in production, and doesn't test it thoroughly, and then destroys > hundreds or thousands of chips. How does this differ from the ifiot who designes a PSU which puts a 25V spike on the 5V rail at power up/power down (and yse I have seen a regualtor circuit which does that -- in a commercial bench PSU!) and then tries to cleim all your ICs were defective? Or the idiot who takes zero anti-static precautions and then claims yuor ICs are failing i nthe field a couple of months later? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 15:11:07 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:11:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: <4F4AEC38.8070201@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Feb 26, 12 06:36:40 pm Message-ID: > The other part that people complain about is not knowing the meaning of > the programming data stream for a CPLD or FPGA., and only being able to > get that data stream by using the vendor's proprietary tools. That's a > different problem, and there are even more reasons for that than there > were for not publishing programming algorithms. Well, yes... It prevents you from fully understnading what you design has been turned into. So you can;'t fully predict how it's goign to behave. It prevents you suign the RAM-based PPGAs as self-reconfiguring curcuits. I cna think of no plus points at all... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 15:13:50 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:13:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: from "MikeS" at Feb 27, 12 00:44:08 am Message-ID: > Not just the general public; when one of my tenants had cable TV installed > recently the installer told her that she'd have to buy a new second TV > because her perfectly good 300-Ohm-only TV was not compatible with the coax > from the converter box... Err, yes... But since when have cable TV installers (and filed servoids) been mroe clueful than the 'general public' :-) And how many times have we all been told that $product is not compatible with whatever compute we're using and that we should buy a new computer? Don't tell be you beleive that... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 14:48:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 20:48:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <30794BF3E55E4C35974A4B58C05430CD@EMACHINE> from "Dave" at Feb 26, 12 09:08:46 pm Message-ID: > > > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains > > frequency but I don't > > > > Was it? > > A long time ago... OK, I am sceptical. What do you mean by a 'long time ago'? Unti lthe coming of the National Grid, different areas would be supplied with mains at slightly differnet frequencies (even assuming it was supposed to be nominally 50Hz), and therre would eb no phase relationship at all. So usign that for any form of TV synchronisation is a non-starter. So that really limits us to post-WW2 TVs. The oldest book of schematics I have is dated 1953, but it contains models going back to 1948. Not one attempts to derrive the vertical sync signal from the mains as far as I can see. But I am a scientist... So while I have not found such a TV, I an't say they don't exist. So I would ask you to state the make and model of one or more TVs that derrived the vertcal sync signal from the mains, so that I can track down the scheamtics and see what they did. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 15:19:14 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:19:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4F4B8BFC.2000504@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 27, 12 07:58:20 am Message-ID: > > On 02/26/2012 02:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I suspect the _real_ reason is that the monitor is ratehr more delicate > > than the rest of the machine, and would be fairly expnsive to ship. > > Delicate and heavy... but I think the issue of hooking a display intended > for NTSC up to a system designed to produce PAL is a bigger one, surely? For monochrome (so not PAL!), it's not much of a problem. The video signals are the same voltage levels, and the horizontal sync frequencies are very close -- close enough that most times the 'wrong' monitor will sync anywaym if noy, it's kist a twak of the horizontal hold control. Most of the time the other vertical rate is within the range of the hold control (of ovbvoious reoasns, the same monitor chassis was sold worldwide), if not the vertical section is genreally easy to modify. Colour video is a differnet issue of course. RGB has few problems, but interconverting between NTSC and PAL encoding is 'fun'. > > I'm expecting that's going to bite me with a lot of my collection when I > eventually ship it over to the US (although one of the things coming over > will be an ACW, so at least I'll be able to tap into its built-in display > for some systems if needed) As I am sure you know that's a TTL input RGB monitor at normal UK TV rates. It's actually a Microvitec chassis nad very similar to some of thei stnadalone monitors. You may be able ot coifugre it for analogue RGB inouts (at whcih point it'll not longer take the output of the BBC B+ board in the ACW). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 27 15:24:58 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:24:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Feb 27, 12 06:10:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 February 2012 20:08, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> So, my UK101 sold for a healthy =3DA3224, which I am very happy about = > indee=3D > >> d. > > > > I really am going to have to look for another hobby... > > (?) Quite simple. The price of vintage computes has gone through the roof recently - -\pounds 224 for a simple-=ish single-board 6502 system for example, and ther;es no way I have that sort of money to spare . It was fun when I could pick up some interestign machines for a few 10's of pounds, or when poeple would give them to you, but not any more. I've got some more projects to do with wht I already have, but after that I'll be working on soemthing else -- if I can find soemthing else. > Anyway, it's a Motorola XM226-16, service #HS.01620-006, serial #9200 > 5237, manufactured July 1979. Is that on the monitor itself, or just on the (possibly incorrect) box? If it is a Motorola unit, I would be _very_ suprised if it couldn't be got to work on 60Hz mains. -tony From cb at kryoflux.com Mon Feb 27 15:59:28 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 22:59:28 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4BFCC0.7020301@kryoflux.com> Hi Johannes, I can assure you there has never been a problem like this with KryoFlux. Our devs work in software engineering for large companies (e.g. console hardware and games, chances are you already own a device that has code made by one of us) and are trained to the latest standards. Even dumps made with the very first public beta are valid in regard to data integrity and there is no need to redump anything. There are hundreds of units out in the field, some at large institutes and libraries, where they are being used daily. It's a device made by preservationists for preservationists. For the record: KryoFlux' counters are 32 bits wide. This is no hardware limitation, it was just chosen as sufficient, but we could as well move to 64 if needed. I would recommend our forums at http://forum.kryoflux.com/ which should give you an impression about user satisfaction. We recently added ADF writing, with more formats to follow. Best, Chris Am 27.02.2012 19:00, schrieb cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: > Has anyone heard of problems with Kyroflux? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 27 17:01:06 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:01:06 -0700 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4C0B32.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/27/2012 2:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > And how many times have we all been told that $product is not compatible > with whatever compute we're using and that we should buy a new computer? > Don't tell be you beleive that... I am still thinking what deity came up with USB? How many good printers, keyboards and mice tossed out because of that? Then again I am grumbling because I still have yet to find a Stereo system I like. Every few years and cheaper and crappier media comes out and tries to replace at higher cost the old format. 8 track comes to mind , it is still better than the new multi-button audio of today but to save a few cents they used the cheapest cases possible and runed that media. > -tony > Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 27 17:07:25 2012 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:07:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201202272307.SAA19948@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Not supplying spare parts for 'safety reasons' (I've got news for > you. It can;'t be less safe for me to repair somethng with the right > parts than for me to have to werk out the imporat characteristics of > said parts and make soethign that will work). Your safety is distinctly secondary there. The relevant safety is _their_ safety, from liability suits. If they don't support user repairs at all, they have a more effective legal shield against idiots botching repairs and then blaming them. Calling it user safety is a CYA measure on their part. If more of the world had sane legal systems, this wouldn't be an issue. But a discouragingly large fraction of the world isn't sane in that regard. There's also another effect at work: not providing parts raises the bar. There are people who would attempt a repair given parts but, faced with no easy-to-obtain "correct" parts, will give up and get a new one rather than doing what you do and creating a suitable part or deducing which stock item already is suitable. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Feb 27 17:08:14 2012 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:08:14 -0500 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4C0CDE.7090205@verizon.net> On 02/27/2012 03:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Philip Pemberton wrote: >>> Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive >>> track-to-track seek rates is? >> When I worked at Apparat around 1981, the company's main products were >> for the TRS-80. Shugart tried to get us to sell a cost-reduced floppy >> drive. I don't recall their model number, but it had two major > Lets see.. Suhgart cam up with that spiral disk positioned that Fred > mentioned > SA400(35track) and SA400L (40 track version) and the SA450 (two sided 40 track) they were slow and ugly in every way. But they were the only reasonable game in town in 1977 and for a while after. Step rate was 40ms or if you had a controller that could 35ms was as fast as it could go. You had to wait an additional 40ms for the head to settle after stepping. The Tandon TM100 was a major improvement over shugart. Same for MPI. The bulk of the 5.25 inch drives never got faster than 6ms/step. The 3.5" most of them were 6 or even 3mS. I still run enough non-PC systems with 8, 5.25 and even 3.5" drives to appreciate what just a faster step rate can buy in response time if the OS knows that. Another slow poke hard disk was the SA1000, it's used a stepper. By time Tandy got into the act with a disk the market had already started to turn on shugart for the problematic SA400. But they used it anyway for cost and the first year with the EI and disks (never mind DRAM timing issues) was seriously painful as the data jitter on some SA400s made disks unreadable using the 1771 internal data separator. Using the internal 1771 data sep was stupid to the extreme but the SA400 really was bad. I was there for all that. It wasn't pretty. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 27 17:14:02 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:14:02 -0700 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/27/2012 1:48 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains >>> frequency but I don't >>> >>> Was it? >> >> A long time ago... > > OK, I am sceptical. What do you mean by a 'long time ago'? > > Unti lthe coming of the National Grid, different areas would be supplied > with mains at slightly differnet frequencies (even assuming it was > supposed to be nominally 50Hz), and therre would eb no phase relationship > at all. So usign that for any form of TV synchronisation is a non-starter. > > So that really limits us to post-WW2 TVs. The oldest book of schematics I > have is dated 1953, but it contains models going back to 1948. Not one > attempts to derrive the vertical sync signal from the mains as far as I > can see. > I think it goes back more to the spinning disk TV format from the late 30's. http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html Dig here for more history on TV > But I am a scientist... So while I have not found such a TV, I an't say > they don't exist. So I would ask you to state the make and model of one > or more TVs that derrived the vertcal sync signal from the mains, so that > I can track down the scheamtics and see what they did. > > -tony > Ben. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Feb 27 17:36:44 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:36:44 -0000 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 27 February 2012 20:49 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: UK versus US monitor question > > > > > > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains > > > frequency but I don't > > > > > > Was it? > > > > A long time ago... > > OK, I am sceptical. What do you mean by a 'long time ago'? > > Unti lthe coming of the National Grid, different areas would > be supplied > with mains at slightly differnet frequencies (even assuming it was > supposed to be nominally 50Hz), and therre would eb no phase > relationship > at all. So usign that for any form of TV synchronisation is a > non-starter. > > So that really limits us to post-WW2 TVs. The oldest book of > schematics I > have is dated 1953, but it contains models going back to > 1948. Not one > attempts to derrive the vertical sync signal from the mains > as far as I > can see. > > But I am a scientist... So while I have not found such a TV, > I an't say > they don't exist. So I would ask you to state the make and > model of one > or more TVs that derrived the vertcal sync signal from the > mains, so that > I can track down the scheamtics and see what they did. > Perhaps as amateur sync gen, there is reference to mains sync here:- http://vss.pl/cq_tv/cq-tv31.pdf But I think that's for the sync generation at the camera. I did think the Pye V4 used mains to sync frequency (NOT PHASE) but when I looked it up it didn't. Then I also recall the horrid problems most TV's of that age had with frame sync. I seem to remember one of the Apollo moon shots being described in terms of a number of TVs with no adjustment to frame sync. > -tony > > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 27 17:49:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 15:49:50 -0800 Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4C169E.301@brouhaha.com> On 02/27/2012 12:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> They're worried about the idiot that builds a one-off programmer for use >> in production, and doesn't test it thoroughly, and then destroys >> hundreds or thousands of chips. > How does this differ from the ifiot who designes a PSU which puts a 25V > spike on the 5V rail at power up/power down (and yse I have seen a > regualtor circuit which does that -- in a commercial bench PSU!) and then > tries to cleim all your ICs were defective? That differs in that usually it doesn't result in thousands of the same EPROM being damaged. The problem is usually discovered after only a few. > Or the idiot who takes zero > anti-static precautions and then claims yuor ICs are failing i nthe field > a couple of months later? > If there was some piece of information that the vendor could withhold from the datasheet that would prevent this problem, they would. There obviously isn't. I'm not saying that I think leaving out the programming specifications is the best thing for the vendor to do, just that there *is* at least one reason for it that isn't completely irrational. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 27 18:12:22 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:12:22 -0700 Subject: Tv Trivia Apollo moon TV In-Reply-To: <4F4C169E.301@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4C169E.301@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F4C1BE6.7070103@jetnet.ab.ca> A bit of triva on how we got TV from the moon - more mechanical TV. http://www.hawestv.com/moon_cam/moonctel.htm Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 27 18:16:44 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:16:44 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: References: <4F4A467D.29319.154EE80@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 26, 12 02:49:33 pm, Message-ID: <4F4BAC6C.13757.1806FD5@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Feb 2012 at 21:07, Tony Duell wrote: > The Persci? Lovely drives!. Were there any other 8" voice coil floppy > drivces made? Not that I'm aware of. > I only ever came across one 5.25" drive with a sort-of voice coil > mechanism (not quite the same mechancially, but very much the same > principle) and that was the Epson 1/3rd height ones used i ntheTF20, > QX10, etc. Again really nice drives. > I have never seen a 3.5" or 3" floppy drive with a voice coil > positioner. Were there any? The Imation Superdisk (LS-120/240) and Caleb 3.5" drives use voice- coil type positioning, but maybe that's not what you meant by "floppy drive". Still, both accept 3.5" DS2D and DSHD media. I don't know about Sony HFD. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Feb 27 18:54:50 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:54:50 -0800 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4F4C25DA.1060603@brouhaha.com> ben wrote: > > I think it goes back more to the spinning disk TV format from the late > 30's. > http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html Dig here for more history on TV Even those had to be synchronized to the broadcast, NOT to the mains frequency. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 27 18:55:08 2012 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:55:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: >> They're worried about the idiot that builds a one-off programmer for use >> in production, and doesn't test it thoroughly, and then destroys >> hundreds or thousands of chips. > > How does this differ from the ifiot who designes a PSU which puts a 25V > spike on the 5V rail at power up/power down (and yse I have seen a > regualtor circuit which does that -- in a commercial bench PSU!) and then > tries to cleim all your ICs were defective? Or the idiot who takes zero > anti-static precautions and then claims yuor ICs are failing i nthe field > a couple of months later? Several years ago when the original Pentium was brand-new, a company ordered a tray of them. The engineers found they were all dead. Another tray was ordered and those too were dead. The problem was tracked down to some bean-counter in accounting who was opening the packages to write down serial numbers at his desk without any anti-static precautions whatsoever. One of the engineers who discovered this idiocy is on this list. Maybe he'll say something. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 27 19:06:02 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 18:06:02 -0700 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4F4C25DA.1060603@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F4C25DA.1060603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F4C287A.5000103@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/27/2012 5:54 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > ben wrote: >> >> I think it goes back more to the spinning disk TV format from the late >> 30's. >> http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html Dig here for more history on TV > Even those had to be synchronized to the broadcast, NOT to the mains > frequency. A quick scan leaves you wondering, is the broadcasting device ( mechanical camera) tied to to the mains frequency. I found a good bit on the receivers, but not on the cameras. > Ben. From tom94022 at comcast.net Mon Feb 27 19:24:14 2012 From: tom94022 at comcast.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 17:24:14 -0800 Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't know what was the slowest, but I suspect u can get by with what was the slowest defacto industry standard as default and not worry about anyone who was faster. As I recall Shugart dominated the 8 and 5? inch FDs and they were not buffered. So your step rates from their specs are SA800 ? 8 msec SA400 ? 40 msec SA400L ? 20 msec I believe most of the 3? did use buffered seek and I would get the Sony spec, not the first Sony but the one that complied with the MIC standard cartridge spec. Sony may have adopted the Shugart spec, which was: SA300 Unbuffered ? 6 msec SA300 Buffered ? 50 usec minimum period; 1 usec minimum pulse width The SA1000 8-inch HDD from a secondary source apparently can accept buffered pulses at a 1.0 u sec min spacing. The ST506 OEM manual is at Bitsavers; it was unbuffered only at 3 msec minimum period, 10 usec minimum pulse width. (there was a hidden internal second pulse generated at 2.8 msec) The ST412 specification [Apr 82] was one Seagate buffered mode implementation that most everyone had to follow ST412 Unbuffered ? 3 msec ST412 Buffered ? 25 usec minimum period; 200 usec maximum period, 2.0 usec minimum pulse width Microprocessor utilization on the ST412 adds the capability of capturing and storing up to 305 step pulses. The controller may burst pulses to the 412 and they will be accepted until 1) time after last pulse exceeds 200 usec or 2) 305 step pulses are received. At the occurrence of either of these conditions, the ST 412 microprocessor will stop accepting step pulses from the controller and will begin issuing them to the stepper motor. Depending on the length of seek, the microprocessor will select the optimum algorithm. Any pulses issued at a rate between 200 usec and 3 msec may be lost. Note the subsequent ST212 (Apr 84) has a buffered spec of 5 usec min, 500 usec max with a 2 usec min pulse width. So I would set my defaults Unbuffered FDD seek ? 40 msec Buffered FDD seek ? not supported Unbuffered HDD seek ? 6 msec Buffered HDD Seek ? 25 usec period with a 2 usec pulse Good luck Tom > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > Hi guys, > > Does anyone know what the typical range of floppy and ST506/ST412 drive > track-to-track seek rates is? > > I'm finding myself having to modify the seek logic in the DiscFerret to > accommodate the Seagate ST-277R RLL drive, which requires that > buffered-seek pulses be spaced between 8 and 200 microseconds apart. Any > more than that and it assumes you're doing a 'slow' seek at 10ms per > step. > > At the moment the DiscFerret's step rates are set up in 250us intervals, > with an 8-bit divider register. Seek rates can be between 250 > microseconds and 64 milliseconds in this configuration. > > Feeding the ST277R the 250us step pulses... really screws it up. The > drive deasserts READY and SEEK-COMPLETE and seems to freeze up > completely. Hardly unexpected... > > If I change the seek clock to 125us, I get a minimum of 125us and a > maximum of 32ms using the same divider. > > Is 32ms likely to be enough for even the slowest drives? > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know what the slowest-seeking floppy drive > or MFM/RLL hard drive ever made was, and what its track-to-track seek > rate was? > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Feb 28 01:11:32 2012 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 01:11:32 -0600 Subject: Apple ][ disk/game server In-Reply-To: <4F226B33.3435.2AFC16@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <201201270219.q0R2Itc3032020@billy.ezwind.net>, <4F224D83.20703@gmail.com> <4F226B33.3435.2AFC16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4F4C7E24.6010301@tx.rr.com> On 1/27/2012 11:15 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 27 Jan 2012 at 0:08, Rob Doyle wrote: > >> I work in Aerospace. We are still shipping lots of products that use >> the Intel 188 and 186 of different variants... ditto 386DX, 386EX, >> etc. >> >> It was never intended to do DOS. It was an embedded controller. Most >> of the peripherals were not PC compliant and they certainly weren't >> mapped at the right IO addresses. > > I'll take issue with that, Rob. Bill Davidow was on our board of > directors. When the software and hardware people ptiched the Moto > 68K as a processor for the new machine, Davidow got mad (the 80286 > was still not ready for prime time) and said it would be a cold day > in hell if any product he had any say in wouldn't use an Intel > processor. At the time, DOS (MS, SC, or PC) wasn't an issue. > > We were pointed at the 80186, along with the yet-nascent 80286 > (they'd gotten real-mode sort of working, but PM wasn't there yet). > The 80186 early steppings we were given were pretty buggy--one bug > that still sticks in my mind is one where the SI and DI registers > could be destroyed if an interrupt hit during a DMA operation. We > went up to Bellvue and talked to Microsoft about Xenix on 2 CPU > machines and came away with a listing of the I/O mechanism used on > the TRS-80 model 16 (uses the Z80 for I/O, but otherwise executes on > the 68K). At no time did the subject of the PC ever come up, > although we did port an early copy of MS-DOS (1.something) to the > 80186. The subject of IBM PC compatibility never came up. > > Altos and Televideo were also involved in using the early 80186 > steppings. > > The problem was that Intel didn't really have anything ready to > supplant the 8086, which was already showing its age, particularly in > comparison to the 68K and the not-yet-ready-for-primetime NSC CPU. > The 432 project had fizzled badly and the 186 and 286 were the only > thing Intel had close to being ready at the time. The support > peripherals for the 8086 were really old technology as well, mostly > created to work with the 8085. > > It's interesting that the 80C186 EC contains several IBM-PC compliant > components, such as cascaded 8259 PICs. So DOS was somewhere in > their minds. > > --Chuck > I worked with the 386EX for several years and always had the impression I could run DOS on it if only I was willing to create a BIOS for it. We were using it in an embedded way so I never seriously looked into it though, so ICBW. -- Later, Charlie C. In God We Trust!!! From cctech at beyondthepale.ie Mon Feb 27 17:32:57 2012 From: cctech at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 23:32:57 +0000 (WET) Subject: UK versus US monitor question Message-ID: <01OCI3H2YQKY0012HE@beyondthepale.ie> > > > > > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains > > > frequency but I don't > > > > > > Was it? > > > > A long time ago... > > OK, I am sceptical. What do you mean by a 'long time ago'? > > Unti lthe coming of the National Grid, different areas would be supplied > with mains at slightly differnet frequencies (even assuming it was > supposed to be nominally 50Hz), and therre would eb no phase relationship > at all. So usign that for any form of TV synchronisation is a non-starter. > > So that really limits us to post-WW2 TVs. The oldest book of schematics I > have is dated 1953, but it contains models going back to 1948. Not one > attempts to derrive the vertical sync signal from the mains as far as I > can see. > > I'm not sure why I'm getting into this, seeing as I know little about it. However... Perhaps studio sync sources were derived from mains power at one time purely as a method of picking a reference to use so that there would be minimal picture roll when transmission output is switched between different sources? Maybe this was found to be counterproductive when large changes in load caused momentarty variations in frequency even though the electricity producers worked to average these out in the longer term? (I don't have any guesses as to what might have been used for a line sync source.) If a three phase grid system is in use with individual receivers normally connected to single phase supplies derived from it and having no choice as to which phase they ended up getting powered by, it would seem to be rather more difficult to attempt to use the power supply waveform as a sync source for reception than to use the sync pulses present in the transmission. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From dan at decodesystems.com Mon Feb 27 20:04:25 2012 From: dan at decodesystems.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Mon, 27 Feb 2012 21:04:25 -0500 Subject: Old Murata databook Message-ID: <4F4C3629.1060902@decodesystems.com> Hello, Does anyone have access to a Murata databook from the 1998 - 2004 time frame? I'm looking for a datasheet for a particular part and have not been able to find anything online. Please contact me off-list. Thanks! Cheers, Dan dan at decodesystems.com From dgunix at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 06:22:41 2012 From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:22:41 +0200 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amazing article. Thanks. People do use words like "innovation" or "creativity" too loosely. Nice perspective. Read it enviously. Bell Labs, as it was, certainly seems like the best place in the world to work in. Adam On Mon, Feb 27, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Christian Liendo < christian_liendo at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > Here is an article written by Jon Gertner who is writing the book ?The > Idea Factory: Bell Labs and the Great Age of American Innovation.? > > For those who remember Bell Labs, you might enjoy the article. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/opinion/sunday/innovation-and-the-bell-labs-miracle.html > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 06:48:34 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 07:48:34 -0500 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Read it enviously. Bell Labs, as it was, certainly seems like the best > place in the world to work in. It was not. The Bell Labs old timers I meet mostly universally say office politics, backstabbing, and competition were intense at the Labs. Plus, all that fun Bell System red tape. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 08:43:26 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:43:26 +0000 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 28 February 2012 12:48, William Donzelli wrote: >> Read it enviously. Bell Labs, as it was, certainly seems like the best >> place in the world to work in. > > It was not. The Bell Labs old timers I meet mostly universally say > office politics, backstabbing, and competition were intense at the > Labs. Plus, all that fun Bell System red tape. Was it not AT&T that was the corporate home of Scott Adams, who later dramatized his terrible experiences of bureaucracy & incompetence in the Dilbert comic strip & has been doing so for about 20 years now? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dan at ekoan.com Tue Feb 28 08:51:42 2012 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:51:42 -0500 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F4CE9FE.6000703@ekoan.com> On 2/28/2012 9:43 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Was it not AT&T that was the corporate home of Scott Adams, who later > dramatized his terrible experiences of bureaucracy & incompetence in > the Dilbert comic strip & has been doing so for about 20 years now? Pacific Bell. --Dan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 08:55:09 2012 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:55:09 -0500 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 28, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 28 February 2012 12:48, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Read it enviously. Bell Labs, as it was, certainly seems like the best >>> place in the world to work in. >> >> It was not. The Bell Labs old timers I meet mostly universally say >> office politics, backstabbing, and competition were intense at the >> Labs. Plus, all that fun Bell System red tape. > > Was it not AT&T that was the corporate home of Scott Adams, who later > dramatized his terrible experiences of bureaucracy & incompetence in > the Dilbert comic strip & has been doing so for about 20 years now? Pacific Bell, one of the Baby Bells that spawned from the break-up of AT&T (that later recombined). -ethan From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 08:59:49 2012 From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 09:59:49 -0500 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8615AD34-8C65-45E9-8B15-414593A82CBC@gmail.com> On Feb 28, 2012, at 9:43, Liam Proven wrote: > Was it not AT&T that was the corporate home of Scott Adams, who later > dramatized his terrible experiences of bureaucracy & incompetence in > the Dilbert comic strip & has been doing so for about 20 years now? I thought he was a Pacific Bell engineer, but that's coming from my increasingly fuzzy memory and may well be wrong. One could always look it up. I guess Pac Bell *was* AT&T, but I think they were broken apart by then. - Dave From dan at ekoan.com Tue Feb 28 09:00:30 2012 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:00:30 -0500 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F4CEC0E.1050406@ekoan.com> On 2/28/2012 7:22 AM, Adam wrote: > Bell Labs, as it was, certainly seems like the best > place in the world to work in. No. For instance, I find it amusing that Bell Labs proudly advertised that Claude Shannon worked there. According to a colleague who got his ScD at MIT and worked at the Labs, Shannon left the Labs to teach and do research at MIT because of the caustic environment and poor management. In particular, many senior employees in the math group looked down on Shannon, and were allowed by management to treat him accordingly, because his theories and papers were not rigorous enough for them. Shannon was much happier at MIT than Bell Labs. --Dan From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Feb 28 09:10:13 2012 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 15:10:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Why ISO standards are too expensive to use, was Re: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > It's probably the same reaso nthat British and European standards > docuemts are very expensiv (I was told the full set of standards for the > 'kettle plug' connector would cost be well over \pounds 1000). No, the reason for that is to exclude competitors from the marketplace. A full set of telephony standards costs millions of dollars, and that's not including the national variants that are almost exactly the same but have some small bit tweaked to make them incompatible. If you're part of the manufacturer's cabal, you're on the committee that writes the standards and you get free copies. If you're a startup trying to break into the market then $*&% you. Alexey From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Feb 28 10:04:13 2012 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:04:13 +0000 Subject: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined In-Reply-To: <4F4BA6D9.4080006@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <4F4BA6D9.4080006@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513382D22@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Very nice...has anyone put together a package of the scanned bytes or a torrent do download a bunch at once? Also, any scanned images of creative computing? That was the first computer magazine I ever subscribed to..I wish I had saved copies of it. Thanks. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holger Veit Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:53 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined Am 27.02.2012 14:43, schrieb Bob Brown: > Are the scanned/ocd'ed images available? > Thanks! > -Bob Follow this thread: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/167235-byte-magazine/ -- Holger From lproven at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 10:35:00 2012 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:35:00 +0000 Subject: Nice Article about Bell Labs In-Reply-To: <8615AD34-8C65-45E9-8B15-414593A82CBC@gmail.com> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <1330360135.95998.YahooMailNeo@web113511.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <8615AD34-8C65-45E9-8B15-414593A82CBC@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 28 February 2012 14:59, David Riley wrote: > On Feb 28, 2012, at 9:43, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Was it not AT&T that was the corporate home of Scott Adams, who later >> dramatized his terrible experiences of bureaucracy & incompetence in >> the Dilbert comic strip & has been doing so for about 20 years now? > > I thought he was a Pacific Bell engineer, but that's coming from my increasingly fuzzy memory and may well be wrong. One could always look it up. > > I guess Pac Bell *was* AT&T, but I think they were broken apart by then. Thanks all for the clarification. It appears I was off target, albeit not totally misguided. Amazing as it may seem to Americans, we citizens of the rest of the world don't have AT&T - any of it - or Sprint or Verizon or Cingular, so it's all a bit confusing... (Mind you, saying that, with the modern climate of megacorporations who own chunks of one another, I am sure their tentacles pervade even the British market.) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 11:11:01 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 17:11:01 +0000 Subject: Why ISO standards are too expensive to use, was Re: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 February 2012 15:10, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Mon, 27 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > > It's probably the same reaso nthat British and European standards >> docuemts are very expensiv (I was told the full set of standards for the >> 'kettle plug' connector would cost be well over \pounds 1000). >> > > You public library probably has access to this standard. I can see (but not download and print) about 120 BSi and ISO standards from any PC just by inputting my library card number, but I can't find one that matchs the latching plug > No, the reason for that is to exclude competitors from the marketplace. A > full set of telephony standards costs millions of dollars, and that's not > including the national variants that are almost exactly the same but have > some small bit tweaked to make them incompatible. If you're part of the > manufacturer's cabal, you're on the committee that writes the standards and > you get free copies. If you're a startup trying to break into the market > then $*&% you. > > Alexey > From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Feb 28 12:00:54 2012 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 10:00:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Slowest-seeking floppy or hard drive ever made? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1330452054.11454.YahooMailNeo@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I remember taking a copy of NewDos 2.1+ , and an issue of 80-Micro to my local Radio Shack and using their Model I to apply zaps to the OS to speed up the boot and step speed. The store manager thought I was crazy, but it worked great! There were also zaps for TRS-DOS 1.3 which I applied to a copy of that, and made copies for the store. They gave out the faster TRS-DOS to all their disk drive sales as a way to enhance the sale. By that time, the drives were all Tandon TM-100's and could easily handle 12ms stepping. I think I also applied the 40 track patch as well. Al Hartman From: Eric Smith On 02/26/2012 01:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > One of the things that I remember about Apparat (slightly before that)? > was that NewDOS (was it only in NewDos80, or all the way back to? > APRDOS?) gave the user the capability to set the step time, to be able? > to take advantage of the 5ms step time of the Tandon, etc. drives,? > rather than have to always step everything at 40ms to be able to? > handle the original SA400 (the original drive shipped with TRS80).? IIRC, NEWDOS/80 allowed the step rate to be changed on a per-drive basis? using the PDRIVE command. In fact, you could change an amazing number of? parameters for the drive or the filesystem format using that command. I don't think NEWDOS had such a command, though there might have been? ZAPs (patches) to change the step rate globally.| From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 28 12:12:57 2012 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:12:57 -0000 Subject: Why ISO standards are too expensive to use, was Re: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > You public library probably has access to this standard. I > can see (but not download and print) about 120 BSi and ISO > standards from any PC just by inputting my library card > number, but I can't find one that matchs the latching plug As a UK library card holder, can I ask you point me there? I did hit upon the BSI shop. Trying a few standards at random, the cost of a download seemed to be anything from ?18 to ?171 (the latter being BS 1363-1:1995). Some of the standards look like they are in multiple parts. So if you need to know eevrything about 13A moulded plugs, then you need to acquire 4 standards. That's perhaps getting on for ?800 (I didn't feel the need to check all four prices!). Antonio From d235j.1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 13:54:42 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:54:42 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4BFCC0.7020301@kryoflux.com> References: <4F4BFCC0.7020301@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: Hi, The aforementioned issue in the Discferret was fixed in early January. We found it after putting the Discferret through some heavy testing and noticing discrepancies. Hey, it happens. Anyway, so far I've been pleased with the quality of the Discferret hardware, and Phil's friendliness and desire to work with others. As with many other open source projects, there's an IRC chat room on Freenode, #discferret, where a lot of development work gets done. The hardware, I can say, is extremely solid. The software has a little ways to go, mainly decoding wise. We're working on it, though anyone is welcome to help. :) Feel free to come and ask questions, even if you don't have a board! I do have a Kryoflux board too ? I got it mainly for testing purposes. The Kryoflux team does not seem interested in working together with interested people at the same level as Phil ? their actually-useful analysis software is very expensive and even dongle protected, according to the FAQ at http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1241 . The basic DTC software is closed-source and can be rather temperamental, as is the firmware. Though Christian says the Kryoflux "never had such a problem," I have never seen an independent analysis or source code or anything confirming that. I may end up doing this myself. Without source it's definitely more work to verify it. An overview of the engineering of the Kryoflux board indicates it was designed mainly with low cost in mind. The level buffers on it are very ESD-sensitive and are not designed for cables (so a long floppy cable may cause issues), and there's lack of protection overall, especially in the power supply. Anyway, the real beauty of the Discferret is that it can sample at more than 25MHz. The Kryoflux is fixed at a 24MHz sample rate, but with the Discferret I can do 50MHz or even 100MHz. The provided 512KiB of SRAM has plenty of space for multiread ? for a 1.44MB floppy disk, 10 copies of one track at 25MHz, 5 at 50MHz, and two at 100MHz. Of course this slows it down, but the additional data can be used to reconstruct weak and damaged sectors. For doing things like this, 100MHz is absolutely needed: http://chrisfenton.com/cray-1-digital-archeology/ . I have a lot of DEC removable media and I'd like to image it, and I will probably end up using the Discferret. The same can be said about MFM and RLE hard drives. There's no way the current Kryoflux design ever will be able to image high-RPM media. As for Linux support: I've seen several complaints lately on the Kryoflux forums about libusb and glibc issues. Take a look: http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewforum.php?f=3 . Even though they're somewhat responsive, it's still relying on them for support. I've never had a problem compiling the Discferret software, and Phil accepts good patches. :) There's also the issue of the Kryoflux software lagging behind. Currently the Mac version (which is what I use) is a few months old, and lacks many of the features I would like. When I asked about this, I got brushed away, saying that the person who usually builds that version is busy. It's been nearly two months since I asked, and I'm getting irritated. The Linux version lagged behind even more, until it got updated not too long ago. Anyway, feel free to email or join the IRC channel if you have any questions! :) --Dave From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 28 13:21:30 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:21:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: from "Dave" at Feb 27, 12 11:36:44 pm Message-ID: > Perhaps as amateur sync gen, there is reference to mains sync here:- > > http://vss.pl/cq_tv/cq-tv31.pdf > > But I think that's for the sync generation at the camera. I did think the Yes, and hat makes sense. Havign the vertical sync of a small closed-circuit system or an amateur TV system locked ot the mains means that if there's any maind hum/ripple in the video signal (and given the verty small signal from the target of a vidicon tube, it's likely there will be), havinf the signal mlocked ot the mains means you have a static 'hum bar rather than one that drifts up and down the picture. The former is a lot less annoying. But that's not the samething as suggestign a TV receiver would sync to the mains rather than some sync pulse in the incoming signal -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 28 13:13:09 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:13:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F4C0B32.6090302@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 27, 12 04:01:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/27/2012 2:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > And how many times have we all been told that $product is not compatible > > with whatever compute we're using and that we should buy a new computer? > > Don't tell be you beleive that... > > I am still thinking what deity came up with USB? How many good printers, I think my views on USB are well-know. The name is wrong. It's not universal (in that of the 200+ computers I own, not one has a USB port or can have a USB port), it is serial, but it certainlt isn't a bus/ Still, 1 out of 3 is better than nome, I guess. I feel that the idea od a 'universal' interface is stupid. It makes about as much sense as a universal motor vehicle, which will win a Grand Prix, carry a family to town and back economically, carry may tonnes of frieght and withstand a driect hit from a medium-sized shell. USB zeems to be over-compicated for a lot of applications. I've read the spec and it made my head spin. I would not want ot have to implement that in simple gates and/or transistors. But I can do that with GPIB, RS232, etc No, it's a useless serial botch. > keyboards and mice tossed out because of that? Then again I am grumbling > because I still have yet to find a Stereo system I like. Every few years and Problem is, good ones are old and expensive. And so are replacement KT66s.... > cheaper and crappier media comes out and tries to replace at higher cost > the old format. 8 track comes to mind , it is still better than the new I think I prefer reel-to-reel tape. At 7.5ips at least, prefereably 15ips. > multi-button > audio of today but to save a few cents they used the cheapest cases possible > and runed that media. Hmm.. The idea ofd an endless loop cartirdige wit the tape having to slip voer itself does bother me. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 28 13:17:17 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:17:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 27, 12 04:14:02 pm Message-ID: [TV getting vertial sync from tha mains] > I think it goes back more to the spinning disk TV format from the late 30's. > http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html Dig here for more history on TV According to all the published information I have 9including instructions for buildign such a receiver and scheamtics published at the time, there was no vertical synchronisation in this system. The drive motor for the disk had a synchronistation device conisiting of a toothed wheel between the poles of an electromagnet. This provided a line synchronaistion, ensurign the picture lines started in the right place but which line started the frame wasn't specified. Rather the viewer had to mnually retard the disk (press a thumb on it) until the picture didn't ahve a bar across it. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Feb 28 14:18:45 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 12:18:45 -0800 Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II Message-ID: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> Looking for early TRSDOS disks (pre-2.0) for the TRS-80 Model II. This would be on 8-inch disks. This is NOT the same as any TRSDOS for the Model I or Model III. Thanks! Eric From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 15:20:05 2012 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 21:20:05 -0000 Subject: Why ISO standards are too expensive to use, was Re: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8465271C0CFA431087314690161A7FA4@EMACHINE> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 28 February 2012 18:13 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Why ISO standards are too expensive to use, was > Re: Fast Eproms CY7C291 Data? > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Wade > > > You public library probably has access to this standard. I > > can see (but not download and print) about 120 BSi and ISO > > standards from any PC just by inputting my library card > > number, but I can't find one that matchs the latching plug > > As a UK library card holder, can I ask you point me there? > You need to check you individual library... For Stockport they are here:- http://www.stockport.gov.uk/services/leisureculture/libraries/libraryonline/ informationonline/ For Manchester here http://www.manchester.gov.uk/info/500140/library_online_services/110/24_hour _library But Trafford no longer seem to provide this service... But you don't have to live in Stockport to get a library card, but you do have to visit a Library in person... > I did hit upon the BSI shop. Trying a few standards at random, > the cost of a download seemed to be anything from ?18 to ?171 > (the latter being BS 1363-1:1995). > > Some of the standards look like they are in multiple parts. So if > you need to know eevrything about 13A moulded plugs, then you > need to acquire 4 standards. That's perhaps getting on for > ?800 (I didn't feel the need to check all four prices!). > > Antonio > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 28 15:55:12 2012 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 14:55:12 -0700 Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4D4D40.2070705@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/28/2012 12:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> cheaper and crappier media comes out and tries to replace at higher cost >> the old format. 8 track comes to mind , it is still better than the new > > I think I prefer reel-to-reel tape. At 7.5ips at least, prefereably 15ips. > I got reel to reel here, but sticky tape and warped reels are a problem. >> multi-button >> audio of today but to save a few cents they used the cheapest cases possible >> and runed that media. > > Hmm.. The idea ofd an endless loop cartirdige wit the tape having to slip > voer itself does bother me. What!!! Here I thought it came and went from another dimension. :) > -tony Has anybody compared over the years the quality of tone,loudness and dynamic range of speakers. Ben. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 28 16:37:31 2012 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:37:31 -0000 Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s References: Message-ID: <008101ccf66c$40132880$89fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 8:44 PM Subject: Re: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s > > For further laughs, I live near Cambridge. The last time I searched for > > Cambridge online, I discovered that there is (atleast) one in Canada, and > > one in every US state! Since then I always write Cambridge, UK when > > referring to Cambridge to avoid any possible confusion. > > Yes, but which 'Cambridge, UK'? The City with a well-known university, or > the small village in Gloucestershire? > > -tony > The one with the well-known university, hospital (Addenbrookes) and other things. I'm only a few miles from the outskirts. I didn't know there is another Cambridge in Gloucestershire. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 28 16:46:05 2012 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:46:05 -0000 Subject: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s References: <007301ccf037$4a249240$36fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Feb 21, 12 01:18:36 am, <4F43AD49.8869.44831@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <008301ccf66c$44b07e60$89fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 10:42 PM Subject: Re: ATTN: Nerds UK and Down Under: Television Program about, 1980s > On 21 Feb 2012 at 20:44, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > For further laughs, I live near Cambridge. The last time I searched > > > for Cambridge online, I discovered that there is (atleast) one in > > > Canada, and one in every US state! Since then I always write > > > Cambridge, UK when referring to Cambridge to avoid any possible > > > confusion. > > > > Yes, but which 'Cambridge, UK'? The City with a well-known university, > > or the small village in Gloucestershire? > > I don't know who the original post is by, but it's not true that > there's a "Cambridge" (or a river named Cam) in every US state. Not > even close. A quick check shows, for instance, that there's no city > or town named "Cambridge" in Oregon, Hawaii or Alaska--the closest > one seems to be in Idaho. > That would be me. Not sure where that thought came from, and since I'm not from the USA I'll have to do a little research this weekend and see how wrong I was. A quick google reveals one in Massachusetts. That makes a grand total of 2 so far... :( (*bangs head against wall*) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From jecel at merlintec.com Tue Feb 28 19:59:25 2012 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:59:25 -0300 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4F4C25DA.1060603@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F4C25DA.1060603@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201202290202.q1T22OVD059543@billy.ezwind.net> Eric Smith wrote on Mon, 27 Feb 2012 16:54:50 -0800 > ben wrote: > > > > I think it goes back more to the spinning disk TV format from the late > > 30's. > > http://www.tvhistory.tv/index.html Dig here for more history on TV > Even those had to be synchronized to the broadcast, NOT to the mains > frequency. My impression is that this isn't quite true. You have to synchronize to the frequency of the broadcast and also to the exact phase of the broadcast. We are used to handling both with a single circuit, but they are separate issues. Though modern recreations of mechanical TV receivers seem to favor DC motors, many original devices used synchronous AC motors instead. So if the broacast was using the mains as a reference the receiver would, after a start up period, be in sync in terms of frequency. The phase difference between the sender and receiver would be arbitrary, of course. The way to solve that is to have the viewer adjust some knob until the picture looked right. One solution is to have the knob add some friction to the motor when pressed, causing the rotation to fall slightly allowing the picture to drift into the desired position. My father started working at RCA in 1957 and tells me that hybrid receivers (with electronic horizontal circuits and mechanical vertical) were still common at that time. I found absolutely nothing about them online. Even museums that list their TV receivers seem to jump directly from full mechanical models to fully electronic ones. http://www.earlytelevision.org/ I did see a hybrid camera at this site near the bottom of http://www.earlytelevision.org/safar_studios.html Anyway, even after mechanical and hybrid sets were forgotten there was enough line noise in typical power supplies to make it a good idea to keep the picture synchronized with the mains. And even today, with nice switching power supplies, having the TV run at the line rate makes the terrible noise that appears on the screen when someone turns on a blender in the next room remain a stationary line instead of moving all over. -- Jecel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 28 20:48:22 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 18:48:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <201202290202.q1T22OVD059543@billy.ezwind.net> References: <4F4C0E3A.8030606@jetnet.ab.ca> <4F4C25DA.1060603@brouhaha.com> <201202290202.q1T22OVD059543@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20120228184225.G47455@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > My father started working at RCA in 1957 and tells me that hybrid > receivers (with electronic horizontal circuits and mechanical vertical) > were still common at that time. outside of museums??!? 1957??!? I didn't buy my first NEW TV until 1961 (Philco 17" "portable", WITH UHF!), so I don't have first hand knowledge of what was available in 1957, but the barely working clunkers in Goodwill, etc. were not mechanical. OTOH, some of the first REMOTE CONTROL TVs (a little later) had a motor to TURN the channel selection knob! From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Feb 29 00:00:34 2012 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 00:00:34 -0600 Subject: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined In-Reply-To: <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513382D22@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <1330303499.30937.YahooMailClassic@web110614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A051337E2E2@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu>, <4F4BA6D9.4080006@iais.fraunhofer.de>, <88A3E8FC8961874EB3066FDCD90D2A0513382D22@ADMMBXS1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: Hi Bob, If you are on windows, get filezilla (ftp client) its grabbing them all at once for me. Randy > From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined > Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 16:04:13 +0000 > > Very nice...has anyone put together a package of the scanned bytes or a torrent do download a bunch at once? > > Also, any scanned images of creative computing? That was the first computer magazine I ever subscribed to..I wish I had saved > copies of it. > Thanks. > -Bob > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Holger Veit > Sent: Monday, February 27, 2012 9:53 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: FREE: Old BYTE magazines - some de-spined > > Am 27.02.2012 14:43, schrieb Bob Brown: > > Are the scanned/ocd'ed images available? > > Thanks! > > -Bob > Follow this thread: > http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/167235-byte-magazine/ > > -- > Holger > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 29 00:04:14 2012 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:04:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <201202290202.q1T22OVD059543@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 2/28/12, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > My father started working at RCA in 1957 and tells me that > hybrid > receivers (with electronic horizontal circuits and > mechanical vertical) > were still common at that time. I found absolutely nothing > about them > online. Even museums that list their TV receivers seem to > jump directly > from full mechanical models to fully electronic ones. I think you might have misunderstood something about that. All electronic television was well and truly common by 1957. In fact, RCA had color sets on the market in 1955. Even in the late 40's, television was all electronic. Electrostatic deflection, however, was quite common back then - perhaps that's what he meant. Instead of magnetic coils to deflect the beam, early small screen sets used electrostatic tubes, with deflection plates in them. Most oscilloscopes used electrostatic tubes for a long time thereafter, but as television sets got bigger, they went to all magnetic deflection. -Ian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 29 00:26:15 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:26:15 -0800 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B23141A-F90D-4F8A-B073-CB877238DC3B@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 28, at 10:04 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Tue, 2/28/12, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > >> My father started working at RCA in 1957 and tells me that >> hybrid >> receivers (with electronic horizontal circuits and >> mechanical vertical) >> were still common at that time. I found absolutely nothing >> about them >> online. Even museums that list their TV receivers seem to >> jump directly >> from full mechanical models to fully electronic ones. > > I think you might have misunderstood something about that. All > electronic television was well and truly common by 1957. In fact, > RCA had color sets on the market in 1955. > > Even in the late 40's, television was all electronic. Electrostatic > deflection, however, was quite common back then - perhaps that's > what he meant. Instead of magnetic coils to deflect the beam, early > small screen sets used electrostatic tubes, with deflection plates > in them. Most oscilloscopes used electrostatic tubes for a long > time thereafter, but as television sets got bigger, they went to > all magnetic deflection. I don't have examples, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he was referring to special cases such as projection TVs or some-or-other studio equipment. Working in RCA he might have been seeing stuff most people wouldn't. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 29 00:39:38 2012 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 22:39:38 -0800 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <20120228184225.G47455@shell.lmi.net> References: , <201202290202.q1T22OVD059543@billy.ezwind.net>, <20120228184225.G47455@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4F4D57AA.31162.2F79212@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Feb 2012 at 18:48, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > My father started working at RCA in 1957 and tells me that hybrid > > receivers (with electronic horizontal circuits and mechanical > > vertical) were still common at that time. > > outside of museums??!? > 1957??!? I can't say that I've ever seen one that way, including pre-war "kit" models, like the Meissner (they of "signal shifter" VFO fame): http://www.myvintagetv.com/meissner101153.htm Our 1948 10" Philco tabletop certainly didn't use that scheme (had a huge transformer in it though). And neither did our "big screen" 1953 RCA set. Perhaps he's thinking of the CBS color system with the motor-powered wheel: http://www.novia.net/~ereitan/Color_Sys_CBS.html --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 00:43:16 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 01:43:16 -0500 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <5B23141A-F90D-4F8A-B073-CB877238DC3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5B23141A-F90D-4F8A-B073-CB877238DC3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I don't have examples, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he > was referring to special cases such as projection TVs or some-or-other > studio equipment. Working in RCA he might have been seeing stuff most people > wouldn't. I have a LOT of 1950s tech docs on RCA television equipment, and I have never seen any hybrid mechanical systems mentioned in them. Perhaps he might be confusing the television for radar indicators. In the mid 1950s, there were still some PPI scopes with the rasters scanned mechanically, by rotating the yoke. This was a very common method to get the rotating raster back in the 1940s, but started to be replaced by all electronic sweep generators in the 1950s. The last use I can think of for these rotating yokes was on the SAGE gap filler nodes, made by Westinghouse - up to seven yokes on seven tubes spinning in sync. -- Will From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Feb 28 18:27:51 2012 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2012 19:27:51 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 102, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From:?ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject:?Re: UK versus US monitor question >> > > It used to be the case that TVs synced to the mains >> > frequency but I don't >> > >> > Was it? >> >> A long time ago... > > OK, I am sceptical. ?What do you mean by a 'long time ago'? > > Unti lthe coming of the National Grid, different areas would be supplied > with mains at slightly differnet frequencies (even assuming it was > supposed to be nominally 50Hz), and therre would eb no phase relationship > at all. So usign that for any form of TV synchronisation is a non-starter. > > So that really limits us to post-WW2 TVs. The oldest book of schematics I > have is dated 1953, but it contains models going back to 1948. Not one > attempts to derrive the vertical sync signal from the mains as far as I > can see. > > But I am a scientist... So while I have not found such a TV, I ?an't say > they don't exist. So I would ask you to state the make and model of one > or more TVs that derrived the vertcal sync signal from the mains, so that > I can track down the scheamtics and see what they did. > > -tony There is a schematic from 1930 on this WWW page from our local museum. http://www.newsm.org/Wireless/TV/mechanical_TV.html Click on the link for the booklet "The Romance and Reality of Television". -- Michael Thompson From cc at corti-net.de Wed Feb 29 04:00:36 2012 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:00:36 +0100 (CET) Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > Looking for early TRSDOS disks (pre-2.0) for the TRS-80 Model II. > > This would be on 8-inch disks. This is NOT the same as any TRSDOS for the > Model I or Model III. I have put two disk images on our ftp server. Christian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 29 04:40:16 2012 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 02:40:16 -0800 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5B23141A-F90D-4F8A-B073-CB877238DC3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4B9AF6EF-8559-4979-AA03-7E8594F847DF@cs.ubc.ca> On 2012 Feb 28, at 10:43 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I don't have examples, but to give him the benefit of the doubt, >> perhaps he >> was referring to special cases such as projection TVs or some-or- >> other >> studio equipment. Working in RCA he might have been seeing stuff >> most people >> wouldn't. > > I have a LOT of 1950s tech docs on RCA television equipment, and I > have never seen any hybrid mechanical systems mentioned in them. > > Perhaps he might be confusing the television for radar indicators. In > the mid 1950s, there were still some PPI scopes with the rasters > scanned mechanically, by rotating the yoke. This was a very common > method to get the rotating raster back in the 1940s, but started to be > replaced by all electronic sweep generators in the 1950s. The last use > I can think of for these rotating yokes was on the SAGE gap filler > nodes, made by Westinghouse - up to seven yokes on seven tubes > spinning in sync. I'm not having much luck finding examples of actual models, and I don't know about RCA specifically, but TMU there were theatre or large-screen projection TVs made with Kerr cells (for light modulation) and rotating mirrors (scanning) for display of the standard TV signal around that era. I thought Scott made a home TV of this form (40s). As such, there were mechanical-scan systems aside from the very early (20s-30s) experimental systems and the CBS sequential-field colour system. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Feb 29 05:46:40 2012 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 03:46:40 -0800 Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> On 02/29/2012 02:00 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: >> Looking for early TRSDOS disks (pre-2.0) for the TRS-80 Model II. > > I have put two disk images on our ftp server. Thank you! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 07:27:27 2012 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 08:27:27 -0500 Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4B9AF6EF-8559-4979-AA03-7E8594F847DF@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1330495454.82395.YahooMailClassic@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5B23141A-F90D-4F8A-B073-CB877238DC3B@cs.ubc.ca> <4B9AF6EF-8559-4979-AA03-7E8594F847DF@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > I'm not having much luck finding examples of actual models, and I don't know > about RCA specifically, but TMU there were theatre or large-screen > projection TVs made with Kerr cells (for light modulation) and rotating > mirrors (scanning) for display of the standard TV signal around that era. I would not call these "still common at that time" (1957). -- Will From vcomp99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 07:42:07 2012 From: vcomp99 at gmail.com (VCOMP) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:42:07 +0100 Subject: KA694 FEPROM In-Reply-To: References: <4F477CCA.3010706@gmail.com> <44AEE08B8B5648588462472481F4D347@OptiplexGX620> <4F4A2848.9060406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4F4E2B2F.2050609@gmail.com> Dan, On 02/26/2012 05:46 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Piotr, > > Found the KA694 maintenance manual. Looks as though powerup tests must > finish > to the console prompt in order to perform a firmware upgrade. What > number do > the tests freeze at? > > Below is a normal powerup sequence: > > KA694-A V2.4, VMB 2.15 > Performing normal system tests. > 70..69..68..67..66..65..64..63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55.. > 54..53..52..51..50..49..48..47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39.. > 38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23.. > 22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07.. > 06..05..04..03.. > Tests completed. > Loading system software. > (BOOT/R5:0 DIA0) > > I have looked on Google for the firmware file, did not find it. > Maybe try the comp.sys.dec or comp.os.vms newgroups for > answers. I even looked in some old Condists for the file. > Someone who came from DEC field service may be able > to provide a solution. > > Dan Thank you for your help and hints - I'll try to ask at c.s.d. and c.o.v. As for the boot problems - during startup, system tests are stoping in different stage - sometimes I see first two lines, sometimes I see nothing except 'Performing normal system test' and sometimes it hangs after all tests complete... It's very strange, and the firmware is my first suspect. Unfortunately, I don't have spare CPU card so I can't verify what is the real problem... Regards, Piotr From dave12 at dunfield.com Wed Feb 29 08:00:05 2012 From: dave12 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 09:00:05 -0500 Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com>, , <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> On 29 Feb 2012 at 3:46, Eric Smith wrote: > On 02/29/2012 02:00 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: > >> Looking for early TRSDOS disks (pre-2.0) for the TRS-80 Model II. > > > > I have put two disk images on our ftp server. Is this a publically accessable server? I'd be happy to add these to my Model-II system disk archive if I can get copies. Dave -- dave12 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com (dot) com Classic computers: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Feb 29 08:18:03 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:18:03 +0000 Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Dave Dunfield wrote: > On 29 Feb 2012 at 3:46, Eric Smith wrote: > >> On 02/29/2012 02:00 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> > On Tue, 28 Feb 2012, Eric Smith wrote: >> >> Looking for early TRSDOS disks (pre-2.0) for the TRS-80 Model II. >> > >> > I have put two disk images on our ftp server. > > Is this a publically accessable server? > I'd be happy to add these to my Model-II system disk archive if I > can get copies. > Indeed. I've love a copy of Trashdos, I mean Crapdos, sorry... TRSDOS.... > Dave > -- > dave12 (at) ? ?Dave Dunfield > dunfield ? ? ? Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > (dot) com ? ? ?Classic computers: ?http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/ > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From cb at kryoflux.com Wed Feb 29 11:34:16 2012 From: cb at kryoflux.com (Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd.) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 18:34:16 +0100 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> Hi Dave, answers below. I must admit I was not expecting this in a thread with this title, but I spotted it because I had replied the other day. I hope I can address all your questions. Best, Chris Am 29.02.2012 15:00, schrieb cctalk-request at classiccmp.org: > > I do have a Kryoflux board too ? I got it mainly for testing purposes. > The Kryoflux team does not seem interested in working together with > interested people at the same level as Phil ? Are we? In fact many people working on KryoFlux are contributors. Several people work with the source, and we recently even visited a KEEP (http://www.keep-project.eu/ezpub2/index.php) workshop to discuss and exchange with others, to name just one occasion. I never got a request or proposal from you, but if you have ideas or comments, or whatever to share... please let us know! If you want to browse our website... there is a ton of information we shared (and still do) over the last decade. > their actually-useful > analysis software is very expensive and even dongle protected, > according to the FAQ at > http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3#p1241 . Yes it is, so are many products. It must admit I don't get how this is related to KryoFlux, or us being interested? I have several products from the same company, some are cheap, others are more expensive. Some come with a dongle, others activate only (yikes!). People that want it can contact us. Some did/do. And some use the software as part of a special arrangement. I really don't see why this is wrong. > The basic DTC > software is closed-source and can be rather temperamental, as is the > firmware. Is it? I'd be happy to hear about quirks. I in fact have many posts and mails that report the opposite. People are in fact happy it works so well. If anything is broken, please send in a bug report. I haven't seen one and I really wonder about the firmware. How would one notice that it's currently "temperamental"? I wonder what this has to do with the status of the source. I'd say it does say nothing about quality. I in fact know many quality products that are not open but I think they are very well executed. Does that mean being open but flawed would be more desireable? > Though Christian says the Kryoflux "never had such a > problem," I have never seen an independent analysis or source code or > anything confirming that. We don't have anything to hide. We do have eleven years of field experience in regard to preservation. The problem outlined by Johannes was a design fault, it's not a glitch. You must not have ambiguity in encoding. Apparently it was fixed lately, a year after release. > I may end up doing this myself. Without > source it's definitely more work to verify it. Let me know how we can help you. It feels a bit odd to read the above when in fact you never asked for anything of the above. How should we know you would want to audit it? > An overview of the engineering of the Kryoflux board indicates it was > designed mainly with low cost in mind. The level buffers on it are > very ESD-sensitive and are not designed for cables (so a long floppy > cable may cause issues), and there's lack of protection overall, > especially in the power supply. I think this is very easy to explain... it was made to be as cheap as possible without sacrificing ingestion quality. We like to make it affordable, and we'd even make it cheaper if we could. We don't want it to be more expensive. The buffers work very well, and we haven't had a single dead one in more than 600 units sold. In regard to protection: One dead board in 600 units supplied, the PSU was broken and just fried the board. We exchanged it. Should I have made all 600 more expensive to cover that one case? That's 599 vs 1. And again: We don't have to hide anything - so I am telling you here in public. > There's no way the current Kryoflux design ever will be able > to image high-RPM media. That's correct. The software could, but the hardware defnitely can't. We never targeted harddrives. We focussed on one specific field of use. And it's working very well. If we'd want to do harddrives or other high-RPM media, we would do another model or product. If these things were cars... we wanted to make something that drives, not something that floats or flies. Just one thing... but very well executed. > As for Linux support: I've seen several complaints lately on the > Kryoflux forums about libusb and glibc issues. Right, you did not want to mention that this is more or less a "theoretical problem"? We offer 32bit and 64bit builds. The 32bit worked for all users (as far as I know, and also on 64bit systems), the 64bit version needed to be refined to make it work on as many distributions as possible. That's just the way it is with binaries on Linux. I am not really happy with that. But on the other hand it satisfies many customers. Just install the software, attach the board - have fun. Buying a bread instead of always baking your own isn't that bad. I wonder how many users will be able to compile a source on Windows or Mac, just to shed some light on the other side of the coin. It's not all black and white. > Take a look: > http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewforum.php?f=3 . Even though they're > somewhat responsive, it's still relying on them for support. I don't get the meaning of this but... if you mean we need a bug report to remove a bug... yes, we do. The wording "somewhat responsive" makes me wonder... people usually get replies the next working day, and even fixes come along pretty quickly. What is wrong with that? To make it better, we have to listen. We do. > There's also the issue of the Kryoflux software lagging behind. > Currently the Mac version (which is what I use) is a few months old, > and lacks many of the features I would like. That is true, you would have to use Windows or Linux. Today. > When I asked about this, > I got brushed away, saying that the person who usually builds that > version is busy. Excuse me, would you mind publishing the answer I gave you as well? I wonder where I did brush you away. I think I was very polite and explained that the Mac port was being worked on. And yes, it's true, our Mac devs are very busy, which is why the team was expanded and a new release is near completion. We welcome everyone that needs an earlier port to step forward and help. Sometimes it's just diffing some files and applying a few platform specific changes. Still, it needs to be done with care and by someone who knows what he's doing. We take quality very serious. From d235j.1 at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 12:14:14 2012 From: d235j.1 at gmail.com (David Ryskalczyk) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:14:14 -0500 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> References: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <0E133AB8-A8EC-4A1B-B5EF-DB18AED54232@gmail.com> I will answer in brief. A proprietary analyzer is not in the best interests of preservation. It instead keeps preservation limited to a small group of "elite" people. This is wrong. If you really were afraid that people would post bad dumps, then you'd be signing official releases. If you have to dongle-protect the analyzer, there has to be some reason for it ? and the only reason I can see is to make money, and keep it out of the hands of people. The bug in the DiscFerret lasted that long because it wasn't really used heavily enough to be detected. After we put it to some use, the bug was found rather quickly. If I had started my testing back in August rather than late December, I'm certain it would have been caught back then. My understanding is that the Catweasel has similar issues. As for software and Linux support: Please make an open, accessible repository containing the source code for DTC, so I can recompile it for various platforms. I often use Linux platforms other than x86 or x86_64. This would help the community greatly. The firmware source code would be useful to people too, I am very certain. "People that want it can contact us. Some did/do. And some use the software as part of a special arrangement. I really don't see why this is wrong." "How should we know you would want to audit it?" Why is this the case? If the project is geared towards preservation, I should not have to jump through hoops to contribute. With many popular open source projects today, people submit pull requests all the time. There's zero hoops to jump through ? clone the project, commit new code, send a request upstream. Works great for the community. Or if not, at least make the USB protocol available. But no, I don't expect any of that from you, since I've seen enough. Though I haven't had 14 years in the industry, I have had several years of working with various open source and preservation related projects to know what's better for the community. I will put all my effort into making the DiscFerret a viable solution for imaging floppy disks, hard drives, and other media. This includes making the software extremely easy to use, and stable. Thank you for your time. I cannot support a project that favors elitism over preservation. --Dave From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 29 13:09:35 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:09:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kryoflux (Was: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> References: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <20120229110541.P75750@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > We don't have anything to hide. We do have eleven years of field > experience in regard to preservation. Even "post-millenium" newcomers are very welcome! Glad to have y'all involved. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 29 13:39:02 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 11:39:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> Message-ID: <20120229113708.O75750@shell.lmi.net> > >> >> Looking for early TRSDOS disks (pre-2.0) for the TRS-80 Model II. > >> > I have put two disk images on our ftp server. > > Is this a publically accessable server? > > I'd be happy to add these to my Model-II system disk archive if I > > can get copies. > Indeed. I've love a copy of Trashdos, I mean Crapdos, sorry... Sorry, the offer ws for Model 2 TRSDOS. The others will cost you. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Feb 29 14:46:56 2012 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:46:56 +0000 Subject: Wanted: TRSDOS 1.1, 1.2 for TRS-80 Model II In-Reply-To: <20120229113708.O75750@shell.lmi.net> References: <4F4D36A5.9050902@brouhaha.com> <4F4E1020.4080903@brouhaha.com> <4F4E2F65.12851.BD44A3@dave12.dunfield.com> <20120229113708.O75750@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 7:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Sorry, the offer ws for Model 2 TRSDOS. ?The others will cost you. Heh. I used to (try) to use that thing in anger, back in the day. Unfortunately, my wife absolutely refused to ship my Model II to the United Kingdom when we moved. ... and my PDP 11... I don't think they would have liked the power here anyway. Ah, the good old days, when I was about 10, hacking around on my father's friends TRS80 while they (being hypochondriacs) spent hours taking each other's blood pressure with this wonderful new invention -- a portable electronic blood pressure tester... -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- Your mama's so FAT she doesn't support files larger than 4 GB. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 29 14:29:47 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:29:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari CX2600A parts... In-Reply-To: <4F4D4D40.2070705@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 28, 12 02:55:12 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/28/2012 12:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> cheaper and crappier media comes out and tries to replace at higher cost > >> the old format. 8 track comes to mind , it is still better than the new > > > > I think I prefer reel-to-reel tape. At 7.5ips at least, prefereably 15ips. > > > > I got reel to reel here, but sticky tape and warped reels are a problem. I found that aluminium reels don't warp at least unless you step on them :-) And I do find it curious that you have problems with reel-to-reel tape but not with 8 track cartirdiges. The latter seem much more likely to jam up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 29 14:38:59 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:38:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 102, Issue 33 In-Reply-To: from "Michael Thompson" at Feb 28, 12 07:27:51 pm Message-ID: > There is a schematic from 1930 on this WWW page from our local museum. > http://www.newsm.org/Wireless/TV/mechanical_TV.html > Click on the link for the booklet "The Romance and Reality of Television". With mechancial TV, the number of lines per picture is fixed by the number of holes i nthe disk, so vetical and horizontal rates can't drift separately. Every mechancial system I've ever looked at has had a line sync only. If you get that right, you'll get a recognisable picture, but mayee one in 2 sections (rather like mis-set framining on a cine film projector). But as I said in another post the normal thing was to get the viewer to reard the disk until the picture looked right. It would then stay in sync (you hope). But I don;t think any form of sync was then derrived from the mains, at least not at the receiver. The transmitter disk might well ahve been sdriven my a synchronous motor, but that's not what we're worried about. And in any case I doubt suych a display device was ever used with a microcomputer :-_ However, to sort-of get this on-topic. the OHP displays for the HP48 and 49 calcualtors have a similar issue. The calculatore conenctor has a line sync pulse but not a frame (vertical) sync. WHen you connect the OHP display you might well get an image where the top line of the display is halfway down the screen. You frob a button on the OHP display unit until it's right, it's much the same thing as retarding a mechncial scanning disk... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 29 14:48:40 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:48:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <201202290202.q1T22OVD059543@billy.ezwind.net> from "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." at Feb 28, 12 10:59:25 pm Message-ID: > My father started working at RCA in 1957 and tells me that hybrid > receivers (with electronic horizontal circuits and mechanical vertical) Are you sayig these sets had a single-azis CRT to provide the horizontal scan and a mirror drum or similar to provide the vertical scan? Kersqueeble. I have never seen anythign like that over here. From the mid 19830s onwards all our TVs were fully electronic. I did heard of some CCD-based camers which had a single-axis CDD (considerably simplerand easier to driv than a 2-axis one) that was mechancially scanned acorss the iamge (or used a mirror to do the same thing), but that's rather differnet. > keep the picture synchronized with the mains. And even today, with nice > switching power supplies, having the TV run at the line rate makes the A number of TVs and monitors ran their SMPSUs at the horizontal scan rate. The DEC VR241 colour monitor is one such -- it's a Hitachi chassis. The power supply is driven from the horizotanl oscillator, at least once it's all got going (and $deity help you if you have to trace a startup fault on that thing). One manufactuer in Europe had that they called the 'IPSALO circuit'. That was an acronym for 'Integrated Power Supply and Line Output' -- 'Line Output' is what you woudl call 'Horizontal Output'. Yes, the chopper transformer and flyback transformer were one and the same. IIRC< the vetical defleciton coils were o nthe output side of the pSU isolation barrier, the horizontal deflection coils were on the mains side. Just a little trap for the unwary... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 29 14:55:22 2012 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 20:55:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: <4B9AF6EF-8559-4979-AA03-7E8594F847DF@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 29, 12 02:40:16 am Message-ID: > I'm not having much luck finding examples of actual models, and I > don't know about RCA specifically, but TMU there were theatre or > large-screen projection TVs made with Kerr cells (for light > modulation) and rotating mirrors (scanning) for display of the > standard TV signal around that era. I thought Scott made a home TV of > this form (40s). As such, there were mechanical-scan systems aside We had back-projection home TVs over here -- White-Ibbotson was the best known. But they used a small convntional CRT (2" screen) with a highr than normal EHT (25kV or so) in a Schmidt-type optical assembly. No mechanical scanning. Did you have 'mirror in the lid' TVs in the States? Due to the small defleciton angle, the CRTs in early (1930's) TVs wrre very long from base to screen. Some mnufactuered stood them vertically with the screen on top and had a front-silvered mirror in a hinged lid on top of the cabinet. For viewing you lifted the lid to the 45 degree position and viewed the refleciton of the screen in the mirror. (Yes it would be back-to-front compared to what was actualyl on the screen, but having one of the defleciton coils revesed mant the picutre you actually saw was the right way round) Again fully electronic scanning. -tony From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Wed Feb 29 12:14:54 2012 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (ddsnyder at zoominternet.net) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 13:14:54 -0500 Subject: KA694 FEPROM Message-ID: <4136.1330539294@zoominternet.net> Piotr, I had problems with my KA694 system at first, I reseated all the cards including the power supply and problems went away. Dan On Wed 02/29/12 8:42 AM , VCOMP vcomp99 at gmail.com sent: Dan, On 02/26/2012 05:46 PM, Daniel Snyder wrote: > Piotr, > > Found the KA694 maintenance manual. Looks as though powerup tests must > finish > to the console prompt in order to perform a firmware upgrade. What > number do > the tests freeze at? > > Below is a normal powerup sequence: > > KA694-A V2.4, VMB 2.15 > Performing normal system tests. > 70..69..68..67..66..65..64..63..62..61..60..59..58..57..56..55.. > 54..53..52..51..50..49..48..47..46..45..44..43..42..41..40..39.. > 38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23.. > 22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07.. > 06..05..04..03.. > Tests completed. > Loading system software. > (BOOT/R5:0 DIA0) > > I have looked on Google for the firmware file, did not find it. > Maybe try the comp.sys.dec or comp.os.vms newgroups for > answers. I even looked in some old Condists for the file. > Someone who came from DEC field service may be able > to provide a solution. > > Dan Thank you for your help and hints - I'll try to ask at c.s.d. and c.o.v. As for the boot problems - during startup, system tests are stoping in different stage - sometimes I see first two lines, sometimes I see nothing except 'Performing normal system test' and sometimes it hangs after all tests complete... It's very strange, and the firmware is my first suspect. Unfortunately, I don't have spare CPU card so I can't verify what is the real problem... Regards, Piotr From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 29 16:07:09 2012 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 14:07:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: UK versus US monitor question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20120229140505.C86495@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 29 Feb 2012, Tony Duell wrote: > Did you have 'mirror in the lid' TVs in the States? Due to the small > defleciton angle, the CRTs in early (1930's) TVs wrre very long from base > to screen. Some mnufactuered stood them vertically with the screen on top > and had a front-silvered mirror in a hinged lid on top of the cabinet. > For viewing you lifted the lid to the 45 degree position and viewed the > refleciton of the screen in the mirror. > (Yes it would be back-to-front compared to what was actualyl on the > screen, but having one of the defleciton coils revesed mant the picutre > you actually saw was the right way round) > Again fully electronic scanning. My grandparents had a tiny portable one of those. I haven't seen it in close to 50 years, but I heard that my cousin has it, and he's enough of an elctronics hobbyist to appreciate it. From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 16:25:43 2012 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:25:43 +0100 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller Message-ID: Hello. Anybody has a one/two of RLV12 (RL02 controller) to sell at reasonable price, preferred in europe? Thanks Andrea From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Feb 29 17:05:42 2012 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 23:05:42 +0000 Subject: Atlantic Research Comstate manual wanted Message-ID: <4F4EAF46.5030401@dunnington.plus.com> Does anyone have a Operator's Field Reference Guide (or any other manual) for an Atlantic Research Interview Comstate 1? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From useddec at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 17:35:06 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 17:35:06 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Andrea, I have several RLV12's here for $50 and the RLV11's for $30. $10 s/h for US. I actually just moved these last week. Thanks, Paul On 2/29/12, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > Anybody has a one/two of RLV12 (RL02 controller) to sell at reasonable > price, preferred in europe? > Thanks > Andrea > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 17:41:57 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 17:41:57 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: would you have the controllor for the pdp8? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 29 18:57:51 2012 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2012 00:57:51 +0000 Subject: Discferret broken? In-Reply-To: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> References: <4F4E6198.3010507@kryoflux.com> Message-ID: <4F4EC98F.2010909@philpem.me.uk> On 29/02/12 17:34, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote: > Are we? In fact many people working on KryoFlux are contributors. > Several people work with the source, and we recently even visited a KEEP > (http://www.keep-project.eu/ezpub2/index.php) workshop to discuss and > exchange with others, to name just one occasion. I never got a request > or proposal from you, but if you have ideas or comments, or whatever to > share... please let us know! What I find interesting is that several of my UK, European and Japanese contacts (at various computer museums in those countries) were scared off of working with the DiscFerret. Nearly every one of them cited the same reason: "conflicts of interest" between assisting with DiscFerret and using commercial versions of the Kryoflux analysis software (which I suspect would be CTA or a variant thereof). I'm making no accusations or insinuations here. I just find it interesting that six people backed out and cited the exact same reasons. > If you want to browse our website... there is a ton of information we > shared (and still do) over the last decade. There was one question I asked which I don't recall you answering... In the CTA analyser screenshots in the WIPs, the Speedgraph has two lines plotted on it; one is magenta, one is blue. The magenta line appears to be the relative width of the bit cells after decoding (or possibly the PLL's 'VCO control voltage'). What does the blue line represent and how is it calculated? > I wonder what this has to do with the status of the source. I'd say it > does say nothing about quality. I in fact know many quality products > that are not open but I think they are very well executed. Does that > mean being open but flawed would be more desireable? At this point in time, the read side of the DiscFerret microcode has been proven correct with testbenches and physical testing with various floppies and MFM/RLL drives. It works. I'm not going to say it's perfect and bug free, because nothing made by humans can ever be "perfect". Heck, even natural evolution doesn't get it right all the time. (though no doubt Mother Nature doesn't like to admit it! *GRIN*) > We don't have anything to hide. We do have eleven years of field > experience in regard to preservation. The problem outlined by Johannes > was a design fault, it's not a glitch. You must not have ambiguity in > encoding. Apparently it was fixed lately, a year after release. Yes, the DiscFerret hardware has existed for a year, but it's only been in the last six months or so that the hardware has really been "out in the field". I never said it was production ready: that's why the initial production run was limited to 15 units (of which 13 were saleable and two were kept by myself). You're forgetting: there are only 15 DiscFerrets in circulation. Most of the users who bought the early units haven't even contacted me or joined the mailing list. It's only fairly recently that the project has gained any sort of momentum. Rome wasn't built in a day, and acorns don't grow into massive oaks overnight either. > I think this is very easy to explain... it was made to be as cheap as > possible without sacrificing ingestion quality. And you've succeeded. I did comment on your Facebook page -- I think I said something to the effect of "Is that a 74LS244? Interesting choice for an input buffer, especially when the source driver is open-collector on the end of a long cable." This comment got me blocked from your Facebook page. Simply for pointing out that I found the design "interesting." Also, the 74LVC14 and 74LVC07 combination is no more expensive than the 74HC244, and the hysteresis on the input side (Schmitt trigger) is very useful for cleaning up 'slow' rising/falling edges on O/C signals. Especially when they've been transmitted across 60cm (or more) of cable. In this case "doing it right" would have cost almost the same. When I designed the input stage of the DiscFerret, I looked at what disc drive manufacturers recommended, and I asked myself: "What is the worst thing a user can do to this, and how do I prevent it from damaging or destroying the I/O buffers?" The parts used for the I/O stage took an insane amount of time to track down and source, and I'm confident that they are the best possible parts for their intended application. As a point of reference, the current ST506 adapter boards for the DiscFerret are mostly passive: the RD_DATA / WR_DATA signalling is fed through an RS422 line driver/receiver chip as necessitated by the drive interface, but the control signals are passed straight through. Even with over a metre of cable between the drive and the DiscFerret, the signals are still razor sharp at both the drive end and the DiscFerret FPGA. If that's not a good design, I don't know what is. > The buffers work very well, and we haven't had a > single dead one in more than 600 units sold. You've been very lucky. Ideally you need a 33-ohm source resistor and clamping diodes to protect the inputs on a HC244... some of them are extremely sensitive to ESD due to the manufacturing process. > That's correct. The software could, but the hardware defnitely can't. We > never targeted harddrives. We focussed on one specific field of use. And > it's working very well. If we'd want to do harddrives or other high-RPM > media, we would do another model or product. Which is why I stated that the DiscFerret was intended to supplement rather than compete with Kryoflux. DiscFerret --> Generic solution. Buy the board, adapt it for anything. In theory, it can even handle ESDI (if the decoding is done on the FPGA). Built in support for hard-sector discs from the get-go. Reprogrammable SRAM-based microcode and flash-based firmware, with recovery bootloader for the latter. Kryoflux --> Floppy discs only. Some noted issues with 8-inch drives and/or hard-sector discs (unless I've misunderstood the messages on your forum?). The one thing that concerns me about Kryoflux is that you've sidestepped the requirement for a device-unique USB Vendor and Product ID pair by using Atmel's EVKIT VID/PID. This is going to cause big problems for anyone who has (and wants to use) the Atmel AVR USB Developer Kit. Read the USB-IF Standard License and Atmel's USB Stack Licenses *very* carefully. > Right, you did not want to mention that this is more or less a > "theoretical problem"? We offer 32bit and 64bit builds. The 32bit worked > for all users (as far as I know, and also on 64bit systems), the 64bit > version needed to be refined to make it work on as many distributions as > possible. That's just the way it is with binaries on Linux. I am not > really happy with that. Build on Debian stable -- i686 or x86_64 MultiLib. Watch in awe and amazement as your binaries work on any Debian-derived distribution (Linux Mint, Ubuntu and its variants, and so on). Do the same on CentOS 5. Watch as the binaries run perfectly on CentOS, Red Hat Enterprise, Fedora and any of the derivatives. > I wonder how many users will be able to compile a source on Windows or > Mac, just to shed some light on the other side of the coin. It's not all > black and white. When the DiscFerret software is considered stable, binary releases will be made for Windows and OS X. For Linux, an Ubuntu Launchpad PPA will be available when the final release is done -- installing DiscFerret will be as simple as: sudo apt-add-repository ppa:discferret/main sudo apt-get update sudo apt-get install discferret-all I Libdiscferret's dependency list is short -- and that's by design. Magpie's is almost as short. And as I said, this is all beta quality code. We know that reading works, writing is mostly untested (it needs a testbench, and one is being written -- it's on my hard drive actually) and decoding needs to be finished. Christian, can you answer one question for me, on behalf of SPS? Do you have any problem with my adding STREAM format support to my analysis tools and libraries? Several people have requested it be added to Merlin, but I've been holding off because I didn't want to cause any issues with SPS. If you need to consult with other members of SPS, that's fine, but a public statement as to what we can and can't do with STREAM and IPF would be most appreciated. Thanks. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:07:57 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:07:57 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The RL8-A is a hex board that only works on the 8-A. I have one or two left, but can't find them and still owe one to someone on the list. Paul On 2/29/12, Adrian Stoness wrote: > would you have the controllor for the pdp8? > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:08:15 2012 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:08:15 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2/29/12, Paul Anderson wrote: > The RL8-A is a hex board that only works on the 8-A. I have one or two > left, but can't find them and still owe one to someone on the list. > > Paul > > On 2/29/12, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> would you have the controllor for the pdp8? >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:16:31 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:16:31 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: might be me if ur the guy that offerd in january but had to dig it out but not for few months From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Feb 29 19:19:00 2012 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 29 Feb 2012 19:19:00 -0600 Subject: WTB: DEC RLV12 RL02 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7197/6929974463_78f10207a3_b.jpg On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > On 2/29/12, Paul Anderson wrote: > > The RL8-A is a hex board that only works on the 8-A. I have one or two > > left, but can't find them and still owe one to someone on the list. > > > > Paul > > > > On 2/29/12, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> would you have the controllor for the pdp8? > >> > > >