From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 1 05:00:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 06:00:48 -0400 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU Message-ID: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> > > If I am not mistaken, the chopper transistor you are referring to is Q1 > (p88). I checked the resistance with the component still soldered onto the Correct. > board. Looking at it from the front (with a plate behind connected to what > looks like a diode), the resistance between the middle and the left pin was > 170Kohm (or 1Mohm, the multimeter scaling confuses me somewhat, I get > different numbers depending on whether I put the dial on 200K or 2M, either Well, it's not totally shorted, then, which is the common failure mode of chopper transistors. Does your meter have a 'diode check' range? If so, use that, and check the base-emitter and base-collector junctions with the probes both ways round. This will at least tell you if the junctions are good. You really need to remove the transistor from the PCB to test it, though. But perhaps before that we should check a few more things. The chopper circuit is driven by E2 (p88), a good ol' 555 timer wired as an astable. For this to work, it needs to be gettign power. This power comes from one of two places : When the supply is running, it comes from T1 on the PSU motherboard, via pins 7 and H of the connector and diode D7 (p88). At start-up it comes from the mid-point of the mains smoothing capacitors via pins 2 and B and Q6 (p88). The base of Q6 is driven from the network R2 and D2 (p82). You should check the power resistors on the motherboard, actually, R1, R2 and R3 (p82). Now obviously the first can't be doing anything since the supply is not running. But the second source should be there. You should measure the supply voltage at pin 8 of E2 _with respect to pin 1 of E2_. That is, the black meter probe is connected to pin 1 of E2, the red one to pin 8 of the same IC. Be warned that this circuitry is directly connected to the mains, and will have _lethal_ voltages on it with repect to ground. So connect the wires, make sure they can't touch anything, then plug the machine in and see what voltage you get. Unplug the mains and wait for things to discharge before touching anything. -tony -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun May 1 06:58:19 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 07:58:19 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > I did figure out a way that they might be getting their passwd files. > It looks sort of like they are scraping postings from the usenet > archives, and putting together login names with systems from > back in the day. Good catch, especially uucp lists and maps seem very relevant here. All paths go through mimsy :-) later mimsy.umd.edu so... a late 80's UUCP map obviously figured heavily in the simulated networking. By necessity: any retelling of 80's era networking will have so much source information available from UUCP mapping projects and Usenet and mailing lists, than any other more closed sections of the network. (BITNET and later NSFNet are also up there in terms of preserved message/map volume but by no means as huge). It's a little biased but by no means wrong (especially considering my link to the network was largely uucp back then too... I can easily dig up usenet groups from the 80's that I overlapped with, but the bitnet-based listserv's that were popular back then are far harder for me to find references to.) I suspect Henry Spencer's preservation of usenet archive tapes at utzoo will figure heavily in any retellings in the future. History is written by the victors, it seems so! If victors == usenet nerds :-) Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun May 1 07:09:30 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 08:09:30 -0400 Subject: command line "museum" Message-ID: (this time with a subject line!) Vince writes: > I did figure out a way that they might be getting their passwd files. > It looks sort of like they are scraping postings from the usenet > archives, and putting together login names with systems from > back in the day. Good catch, especially uucp lists and maps seem very relevant here. All paths go through mimsy :-) later mimsy.umd.edu so... a late 80's UUCP map obviously figured heavily in the simulated networking. By necessity: any retelling of 80's era networking will have so much source information available from UUCP mapping projects and Usenet and mailing lists, than any other more closed sections of the network. (BITNET and later NSFNet are also up there in terms of preserved message/map volume but by no means as huge). It's a little biased but by no means wrong (especially considering my link to the network was largely uucp back then too... I can easily dig up usenet groups from the 80's that I overlapped with, but the bitnet-based listserv's that were popular back then are far harder for me to find references to.) I suspect Henry Spencer's preservation of usenet archive tapes at utzoo will figure heavily in any retellings in the future. History is written by the victors, it seems so! If victors == usenet nerds :-) If I poke at the right places at classiccmp.org I can find archives from dewey but I don't think I can find the washington.edu/Bill Whitson era. Tim. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 1 08:22:04 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 09:22:04 -0400 Subject: command line "museum" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBD5E7C.9070108@compsys.to> >Shoppa, Tim wrote: >If I poke at the right places at classiccmp.org I can find archives from dewey >but I don't think I can find the washington.edu/Bill Whitson era. > I would be surprised if Tim did not know that "the washington.edu" support for classiccmp ended around February 1st, 2000. But other more recent members of the list would not be aware that the switch to "classiccmp.org" took place around that date. Since I archive the posts to this list which are about RT-11, I have over 10 years of interesting items back to 1998 (well only one item from December 18th, 1998 from Zane Healy for all of 1998). Jerome Fine From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 1 08:59:01 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:59:01 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> References: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> Message-ID: <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Sent: 01 May 2011 11:01 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > > > > If I am not mistaken, the chopper transistor you are referring to is > > Q1 (p88). I checked the resistance with the component still soldered > > onto the > > Correct. > > > board. Looking at it from the front (with a plate behind connected to > > what looks like a diode), the resistance between the middle and the > > left pin > was > > 170Kohm (or 1Mohm, the multimeter scaling confuses me somewhat, I > get > > different numbers depending on whether I put the dial on 200K or 2M, > either > > Well, it's not totally shorted, then, which is the common failure mode of > chopper transistors. > > Does your meter have a 'diode check' range? If so, use that, and check the > base-emitter and base-collector junctions with the probes both ways round. > This will at least tell you if the junctions are good. You really need to remove > the transistor from the PCB to test it, though. > > But perhaps before that we should check a few more things. The chopper > circuit is driven by E2 (p88), a good ol' 555 timer wired as an astable. For > this to work, it needs to be gettign power. This power comes from one of > two places > : > > When the supply is running, it comes from T1 on the PSU motherboard, via > pins > 7 and H of the connector and diode D7 (p88). > > At start-up it comes from the mid-point of the mains smoothing capacitors > via pins 2 and B and Q6 (p88). The base of Q6 is driven from the network R2 > and D2 (p82). You should check the power resistors on the motherboard, > actually, R1, R2 and R3 (p82). > > Now obviously the first can't be doing anything since the supply is not > running. But the second source should be there. You should measure the > supply voltage at pin 8 of E2 _with respect to pin 1 of E2_. That is, the black > meter probe is connected to pin 1 of E2, the red one to pin 8 of the same IC. > Be warned that this circuitry is directly connected to the mains, and will > have _lethal_ voltages on it with repect to ground. So connect the wires, > make sure they can't touch anything, then plug the machine in and see what > voltage you get. Unplug the mains and wait for things to discharge before > touching anything. > I measured 8.6V across pin 1 and 8 of E2. Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 1 13:02:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 11:02:37 -0700 Subject: Interesting device on eBay Message-ID: <4DBD3DCD.29667.6756C5@cclist.sydex.com> For the wannabe spooks, a raster analysis kit: 120718150318 --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:16:54 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 15:16:54 -0300 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... References: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: BTW, anyone looking for a good sunday talk? Incredible I have no one from this list on MSN. If you're looking for some chatting, add webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br to your MSN and lets have a bit of talking :D Boring day... Greetings from Brazil Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun May 1 13:49:30 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 18:49:30 +0000 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... Message-ID: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> > BTW, anyone looking for a good sunday talk? > > Incredible I have no one from this list on MSN. If you're looking for > some chatting, add webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br to your MSN and lets > have a bit of talking :D > > Boring day... > > Greetings from Brazil > Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ Maybe somebody should set up an irc channel on freenode if there isn't one already...that sounds like a good idea to me! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:57:21 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 13:57:21 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: vintage computer forums has a irc On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 1:49 PM, wrote: > > BTW, anyone looking for a good sunday talk? > > > > Incredible I have no one from this list on MSN. If you're looking for > > some chatting, add webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br to your MSN and lets > > have a bit of talking :D > > > > Boring day... > > > > Greetings from Brazil > > Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ > > Maybe somebody should set up an irc channel on freenode if there isn't one > already...that sounds like a good idea to me! > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:57:26 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 19:57:26 +0100 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: we are on #classiccmp om freenode....been there for years Dave Caroline (archivist) On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 7:49 PM, wrote: >> ? ?BTW, anyone looking for a good sunday talk? >> >> ? Incredible I have no one from this list on MSN. If you're looking for >> some chatting, add webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br to your MSN and lets >> have a bit of talking :D >> >> ? Boring day... >> >> ? ?Greetings from Brazil >> ? ?Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ > > Maybe somebody should set up an irc channel on freenode if there isn't one > already...that sounds like a good idea to me! > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 1 13:58:58 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 13:58:58 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: also i added u a week or 2 ago i duno if u accepted me dz_knight at rmail.zapto.org On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 1:57 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > vintage computer forums has a irc > > > On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 1:49 PM, wrote: > >> > BTW, anyone looking for a good sunday talk? >> > >> > Incredible I have no one from this list on MSN. If you're looking for >> > some chatting, add webmaster at pinball-taito.com.br to your MSN and lets >> > have a bit of talking :D >> > >> > Boring day... >> > >> > Greetings from Brazil >> > Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ >> >> Maybe somebody should set up an irc channel on freenode if there isn't one >> already...that sounds like a good idea to me! >> > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun May 1 14:00:47 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 12:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 5/1/11, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > Maybe somebody should set up an irc channel on freenode if > there isn't one > already...that sounds like a good idea to me! > Yeah! They could call it #classiccmp or something. Oh, wait.... -Ian From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:07:14 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:07:14 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: <493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> <493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: won't let me get on that irc chanel From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:15:19 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 20:15:19 +0100 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> <493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: you need to register your nick Dave Caroline On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:07 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > won't let me get on that irc chanel > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:17:58 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 14:17:58 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> <493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: how i can't even get in the chanel to do that From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:20:47 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 20:20:47 +0100 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> <493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: you dont need to enter the chan to register http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#registering Dave Caroline On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > how i can't even get in the chanel to do that > From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun May 1 14:21:39 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 19:21:39 +0000 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... Message-ID: <201105011921.p41JLhKA012829@omr-d32.mx.aol.com> Thus spake dave.thearchivist at gmail.com on Sun May 1 19:19:04 > we are on #classiccmp om freenode....been there for years > > Dave Caroline (archivist) Thanks Dave. Probably good to send that out once in awhile for us newbies so we don't irritate Ian :D From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 1 14:55:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 20:55:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 1, 11 02:59:01 pm Message-ID: > I measured 8.6V across pin 1 and 8 of E2. So the 555 timer is getting power, and 8.6V is enough to run a 555. So why isn't the PSU working? OK, I know what I would do next : 1) Remvoe and test (properly) the chopper transistor. It's the most likely part to fial after all. 2) Remove the Bias and Interface Board and find some way of powering that control circuitry from a bench suppy (or even a 9V battery). Of course you can't then link it to the mains parts of the H7140 (like the chopper transfromer), but now you can connect a 'scope to it and see if that 555 is oscillating, if the chopper transistor is being driven, if the regulation feedback circuit works, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 1 14:42:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 20:42:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <010401cc0777$df5da260$9e18e720$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Apr 30, 11 09:47:48 pm Message-ID: > > Incidentally, where are you based? I assume from the terms you use that > > you're in the UK. > > > Manchester. From what I recall from earlier emails you are in London, Drat!. Not that I have anyhting against Manchester (and I guess you can go and see the Manchester Mark 1 rebuild), but it's too far away for me to be able to take a look at your PSU > correct? Depends on how you define 'London':-) I am not in the City of London. I am in Greater London, south-west near Richmond. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun May 1 14:46:30 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 16:46:30 -0300 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... References: <201105011849.p41InXib028904@omr-d32.mx.aol.com><493636.37511.qm@web121617.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > how i can't even get in the chanel to do that First, you create a nickname. Put something like /nick AdrianStoness after, you register it with /msg nickserv register password email As an example, /msg nickserv register 1234 adrian at foo.net You'll get a messsage on adrian at foo.net asking to confirm the registration of the nick After that, you need to identify yourself to nickserv when you enter the IRC with /msg nickserv identify password From now on, use /join #classiccmp and you're set :) I'm already there! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun May 1 16:13:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 22:13:57 +0100 Subject: New DiscFerret tool released: Merlin Message-ID: <4DBDCD15.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm going to stick my neck out a bit, and assume you all saw the screenshots I posted this week. If you didn't, well... you missed a treat :) I've just committed the current "development alpha" of the DiscFerret software to the DiscFerret Mercurial repository. You can access the files at the following address: http://hg.discferret.com/software/merlin/ Hit the "zip," "gz" or "bz2" link on the top toolbar and you can download a ZIP, tar-gzip or tar-bzip2 file containing all the current source files. At the moment, I've only tested Merlin on Linux (specifically, Ubuntu 10.10 "Maverick Meerkat"), although *in theory* it should also build on the various BSDs and Mac OS X, as long as you have a working copy of the GCC C++ compiler, and the wxWidgets libraries for your system (note that 'wx-config' must be on the PATH). At the moment, it'll only read "Catweasel IMG" files. These are basically dumps of the Catweasel data buffer, sampled at 28MHz, in the following format: File := 1 or more "Track" blocks Track := uchar cylinder // physical cylinder (track) uchar head // physical head (side) uint32le payload_length uchar[] payload // length specified by payload_length uchar = unsigned char, an 8 bit unsigned value uint32le = unsigned integer, 32 bit, little endian. Data is exactly as extracted from the Catweasel memory; 28MHz clock rate, index in the MSbit, bits 6..0 contain the timing value. Please feel free to post your comments on-list, or email me in private if you prefer. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 1 16:32:29 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 22:32:29 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 1, 11 02:59:01 pm Message-ID: <015701cc0847$47693840$d63ba8c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 01 May 2011 20:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > I measured 8.6V across pin 1 and 8 of E2. > > So the 555 timer is getting power, and 8.6V is enough to run a 555. So why > isn't the PSU working? > > OK, I know what I would do next : > > 1) Remvoe and test (properly) the chopper transistor. It's the most likely part > to fial after all. OK, I will do that. My multimeter has a diode check range, but I don't know how to interpret the results, I will just have to tell you what the readout says. > > 2) Remove the Bias and Interface Board and find some way of powering that > control circuitry from a bench suppy (or even a 9V battery). Of course you > can't then link it to the mains parts of the H7140 (like the chopper > transfromer), but now you can connect a 'scope to it and see if that 555 is > oscillating, if the chopper transistor is being driven, if the regulation > feedback circuit works, etc. I have to remove the board to attach diagnostic wires anyway, so removing it is not a problem. Attaching it to an oscilloscope is a big problem, because I don't have one.... Have you got any recommendations for a suitable basic one that I could find for not a lot of money on eBay? I keep thinking I should get one at some point anyway. Regards Rob From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun May 1 17:53:45 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 17:53:45 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: References: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DBDE479.8070004@brutman.com> We have a reasonably active channel over at irc.slashnet.org, #vc . Besides chatting about vintage machines, we often use our vintage machines to get online! (IRCjr runs well on the slowest PC or compatible you can find.) Mike From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 1 19:05:32 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 19:05:32 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: <4DBDE479.8070004@brutman.com> References: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> <4DBDE479.8070004@brutman.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 1, 2011 at 5:53 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > We have a reasonably active channel over at irc.slashnet.org, #vc . Besides > chatting about vintage machines, we often use our vintage machines to get > online! ?(IRCjr runs well on the slowest PC or compatible you can find.) I recommend checking out both channels. If #vc is the computer club meeting, #classiccmp is probably the meet-up in the bar [1] afterward ;) [1] Or pub, since we have a few Euro types, too. -- S.7k From dancohoe at oxford.net Sun May 1 20:29:28 2011 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (Dan Cohoe) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 21:29:28 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova and Eclipse items for rescue on Vancouver Island Message-ID: <2C3CCC4DDE984A749D162CB2E2775750@nharrison> Hello everyone, Looks like Canadian Government Surplus has a large pile of old radar items including a DG Eclipse S/230 system and some version of a Nova. In the picture you can see these items along with a number of large disks and a lot of documentation. Auction closes a couple of days from now and I'm in Canada but 3000 miles away from it. The pile is in Ucluelet BC. Heres a link: If you can't get right to the item, just use the search term "radar". http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=69424&lcn =213328&lct=L&srchtype=&so=ASC&sf=ferm-clos&lci=&str=1<nf=1&test=1 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun May 1 21:16:47 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 1 May 2011 19:16:47 -0700 Subject: Data General Nova and Eclipse items for rescue on Vancouver Island In-Reply-To: <2C3CCC4DDE984A749D162CB2E2775750@nharrison> References: <2C3CCC4DDE984A749D162CB2E2775750@nharrison> Message-ID: On 2011 May 1, at 6:29 PM, Dan Cohoe wrote: > Hello everyone, > > Looks like Canadian Government Surplus has a large pile of old radar > items > including a DG Eclipse S/230 system and some version of a Nova. In the > picture you can see these items along with a number of large disks and > a lot > of documentation. > > Auction closes a couple of days from now and I'm in Canada but 3000 > miles > away from it. > > The pile is in Ucluelet BC. > > Heres a link: > > If you can't get right to the item, just use the search term "radar". > > http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc- > bid&scn=69424&lcn > =213328&lct=L&srchtype=&so=ASC&sf=ferm-clos&lci=&str=1<nf=1&test=1 And I'll guess you'll get it for the min bid of 100$, Ucluelet is a small town way out on the west coast of Vancouver Island, they probably just want somebody to take the stuff away. Relatively speaking it's close to me, but Canada is a big place and it's still a ferry trip and 200+ km of winding road. Spectacular resort area for somebody that wants a scenic holiday however. Tempting to go and just pick up the computer stuff but they'll probably say you have to clear out everything. From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun May 1 14:38:04 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 20:38:04 +0100 Subject: New DiscFerret tool released: Merlin Message-ID: <4DBDB69C.3000107@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm going to stick my neck out a bit, and assume you all saw the screenshots I posted this week. If you didn't, well... you missed a treat :) I've just committed the current "development alpha" of the DiscFerret software to the DiscFerret Mercurial repository. You can access the files at the following address: http://hg.discferret.com/software/merlin/ Hit the "zip," "gz" or "bz2" link on the top toolbar and you can download a ZIP, tar-gzip or tar-bzip2 file containing all the current source files. At the moment, I've only tested Merlin on Linux (specifically, Ubuntu 10.10 "Maverick Meerkat"), although *in theory* it should also build on the various BSDs and Mac OS X, as long as you have a working copy of the GCC C++ compiler, and the wxWidgets libraries for your system (note that 'wx-config' must be on the PATH). At the moment, it'll only read "Catweasel IMG" files. These are basically dumps of the Catweasel data buffer, sampled at 28MHz, in the following format: File := 1 or more "Track" blocks Track := uchar cylinder // physical cylinder (track) uchar head // physical head (side) uint32le payload_length uchar[] payload // length specified by payload_length uchar = unsigned char, an 8 bit unsigned value uint32le = unsigned integer, 32 bit, little endian. Data is exactly as extracted from the Catweasel memory; 28MHz clock rate, index in the MSbit, bits 6..0 contain the timing value. Please feel free to post your comments on-list, or email me in private if you prefer. Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From philpem at philpem.me.uk Sun May 1 14:41:27 2011 From: philpem at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 20:41:27 +0100 Subject: New DiscFerret tool released: Merlin Message-ID: <4DBDB767.6010807@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm going to stick my neck out a bit, and assume you all saw the screenshots I posted this week. If you didn't, well... you missed a treat :) I've just committed the current "development alpha" of the DiscFerret software to the DiscFerret Mercurial repository. You can access the files at the following address: http://hg.discferret.com/software/merlin/ Hit the "zip," "gz" or "bz2" link on the top toolbar and you can download a ZIP, tar-gzip or tar-bzip2 file containing all the current source files. At the moment, I've only tested Merlin on Linux (specifically, Ubuntu 10.10 "Maverick Meerkat"), although *in theory* it should also build on the various BSDs and Mac OS X, as long as you have a working copy of the GCC C++ compiler, and the wxWidgets libraries for your system (note that 'wx-config' must be on the PATH). At the moment, it'll only read "Catweasel IMG" files. These are basically dumps of the Catweasel data buffer, sampled at 28MHz, in the following format: File := 1 or more "Track" blocks Track := uchar cylinder // physical cylinder (track) uchar head // physical head (side) uint32le payload_length uchar[] payload // length specified by payload_length uchar = unsigned char, an 8 bit unsigned value uint32le = unsigned integer, 32 bit, little endian. Data is exactly as extracted from the Catweasel memory; 28MHz clock rate, index in the MSbit, bits 6..0 contain the timing value. Please feel free to post your comments on-list, or email me in private if you prefer. Thanks, -- Phil. philpem at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 1 15:14:05 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 21:14:05 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: command line "museum" Message-ID: <01O0S35MZP0I0018H6@beyondthepale.ie> > >What OS is it supposed to be >running (the starting host seems to be a sort of hybrid of TOPS-10, >Unix and VM/CMS)? > What bit is like VM/CMS? - I've never come across anything else that reminds me of VM/CMS to any degree :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 1 15:46:15 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 01 May 2011 21:46:15 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: command line "museum" Message-ID: <01O0S41SNRK20018H6@beyondthepale.ie> > >By necessity: any retelling of 80's era networking will have so much >source information available from UUCP mapping projects and Usenet >and mailing lists, than any other more closed sections of the network. >(BITNET and later NSFNet are also up there in terms of preserved >message/map volume but by no means as huge). > Where are the preserved BITNET maps to be found? I went looking for BITNET topography related material a few months ago and found only a few examples. One of the people I contacted recently came back to me with a stash of files previously thought to be lost but I would be pleasantly surprised to know if there is more material out there. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon May 2 07:00:38 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 14:00:38 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM manuals Message-ID: Hi, I'm restoring an IBM 3340-A2 winchester disk drive that is part of our new IBM 4331 system[1]; so far so good. It still needs some cleaning and visual inspection; it was incredibly dirty (I've even found a mouse trap inside on top of the air filter housing!) but looks fine otherwise. We also have almost all manuals for the system, except one for the 3340: the first of six volumes, i.e. volume R01 that contains the sections INDEX, MLX, LGND, START, FSI, MSG, SENSE, OLT and OPER. All other manuals will be scanned bit by bit and put on our FTP server. Question: does anybody have that manual? I'd be interested in a scan; i can then put it online if desired. Christian [1] The system consists of a 4331-2, four 3278 terminals including console, a 3287 matrix printer, a 3262 steel band printer, a 8809 tape drive, and a string of one 3340-A2 and one 3344-B2 drive. There were also several 3370 drives that went to the nearby IBM museum. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon May 2 11:09:27 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 11:09:27 -0500 Subject: Dummy loads (was: Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 19:06 -0500 4/29/11, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >...The other side to this is that unless you show kids how do fun things, >they will have a go on their own. Possibly with things that are a lot >more dangereous than a car battery and lead. Oh yes! My kids have done archery, rock climbing, sailing (with *lots* of wind), bicycling (on public roads), snorkeling in the ocean, model rocketry, etc. etc. etc. with my encouragement and supervision. Lots of warnings, but (hopefully) lots of fun, too. At 19:06 -0500 4/29/11, ard wrote: >...I think I've expressed this view before... Everything has some risks >associated with it, even getting out of bed in the morning. So I could >either spend my life lying in bed and die of boredom or I can get on with >what I enjoy, even though there are some dangers in doing so. I'll take >sensible precaustions (not drinking the electrolyte as it may contain >heavy metal ions, not eating solder, making sure high voltage devices are >isolated and discharged before I work on them, etc). My life will >probably be shorter doing that, but it will be a lot more enjoyable which >would seem to be the important thing. I agree almost completely with this. My one provisio is that I'm much more likely to take risks when I (think I) understand them and know how to minimize or control them. There's a lot of chemistry and biochemistry that's not in that category for me, so I'm more cowardly there. At 5:03 -0500 4/29/11, Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: >It has a radio that can be used while working, While my '68 Plymouth 12V bench supply appreciates the compliment, it's not warranted. The AM radio came out in the '80s, and was replaced by an AM-FM-Cassette which subsequently failed. Wish I'd kept the AM radio... But Fred left off one of the most important auxiliary functions! It can also function as a dolly for moving computer cabinets around the workshop at speeds up to ~100 mph (well, OSHA-type regulations notwithstanding...)! -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 2 13:12:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:12:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <015701cc0847$47693840$d63ba8c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 1, 11 10:32:29 pm Message-ID: Please don't take this as an insult, but I am going to make the same recoemndation that I made to another list member a few days ago. Read 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. I think it will help you to understnd some of these circuits. > > OK, I know what I would do next : > > > > 1) Remvoe and test (properly) the chopper transistor. It's the most likely > part > > to fial after all. > > OK, I will do that. My multimeter has a diode check range, but I don't know > how to interpret the results, I will just have to tell you what the readout > says. The diode test range on most digital multimeters is quite simple. It supplies a contanst test current (a few mA) to the probes. The display shows the voltage between the probe. When connected to a working diode junction, connected the right way round (normalyl with the red probe to the anode), that voltage will be about 0.7V. The other way round you'll get 'OL' or however your meter shows an over-range conditon An open junction (or nothing at all) will show 'OL' bot ways round. A shorted jucntion will show 0.00 both ways round. Now, a transistor can be consideded for the purpose of this test to be 2 diode junctions -- one from collector to base and one from emitter to base. Bo, you can't make a transistor by connecting up 2 diodes, (there's some magic that goes on in the thin base layer), but you can test the 2 junctions seprately. Having 2 good juntions don't mean the trransistor is necessarily good, but if you don't have 2 good diode juntions, it can't be a working (bipolar) transistor. The first thing to do is to fidn out the transistor pinouts. Often sites like http://www.datasheetarchive.com/ and http://www.digchip.com/ are useufl. Type i nthe part number and see what turns up. I often use a book called 'Towers International Transistor Selector', but it's quite expensive and probably not worth buying unless you are as insane as I am. Actually, for the sort of small power trnasistor you're looking at, in what's called a 'TO220' pachaga, the pinout is ----------------- | | |------- emitter | O | |------- collector (also connected to the metal tab) | | |------- base ----------------- That shows the transsitor with the metal face downwards (Plastic 'bump' uppermost). The tab is on the left with the mounting hole. Now, this is an NPN transistor which will test as a pair of diodes with a common anode connection. Assuming your meter is conventional : Red Black Probe Probe Reading ---------------------------- b e 0.7V e b OL b c 0.7V (Often this is a little higher than the b-e reading) c b OL c e OL e c OL As I said, that's doesn;'t prove it's a working transisotr, but it's a start, There are much more elaborate specialist transisotr testers out there, going uop to things like 'curve tracers' which will display a graph of say collector current against collector voltage for various vlaues of base current. Tektronix 575 or 577 for example. > > > > > 2) Remove the Bias and Interface Board and find some way of powering that > > control circuitry from a bench suppy (or even a 9V battery). Of course you > > can't then link it to the mains parts of the H7140 (like the chopper > > transfromer), but now you can connect a 'scope to it and see if that 555 > is > > oscillating, if the chopper transistor is being driven, if the regulation > > feedback circuit works, etc. > > I have to remove the board to attach diagnostic wires anyway, so removing it > is not a problem. Attaching it to an oscilloscope is a big problem, because > I don't have one.... Have you got any recommendations for a suitable basic I asusme yuo don't have an adjustable bench power supply either. Let me first explain what I would do. If you look at the Bias and Interface Board scheiamtic, you will see thatwhen the supply is running, this circuitry is powered from a feedback widnign on the transformer (T1 on the PSU motherboard). The output of this winding firstly powers the osiclalator cuircuit, secondly it's connected to a zener diode to the base of a transistor (IIRC bottom left corner of the diagram, I don't have it in front of me). The idea is that if the output votlage rises too high, this transitor affects the opeation of the 555 oscillator, reducing the output votlage. In other words a votlage regualtor. I have looked up the characteristic of that zener diode, it's rated at 12V. Together with the 0.7V b-e drop in the assoctiate transistor, thsi thing is going to regualte at about 12/7V (DEC call it the 13V line on the diagram, which is reasonable). I owuld therefore connect an adjustable PSU to the pins on the connactor on the Bias and Interface Board (removed from teh PSU) that normally to this transformer widning. With the supply set to 10V or so, the oscilator should run, I would check this at the output (pin 3) of the 555. Then, carefully increase the output of the supply and see if the regualtion circuit operates as it should do. If the oscillator is running, then I'd check the circuitry coupling it to the base of the copper trnasistor. Incidentally, it would be worth chercking that the widings of the transfortmer T1 are continuous. An ohmmeter chceck between the appropraite conenctions will do this. > one that I could find for not a lot of money on eBay? I keep thinking I > should get one at some point anyway. In a word 'Tektronix' :-). More serieously, there are 2 schools of thought when it comes to cheap scopes. Some people prefer a cheap-nasty fairly modern thing which will progagbly work as well as it ever did and will keep going with no problems for a few years. Others, including myself. prefer an older, top-quality instrument. It'll be large, it'll probably use valves, and it ill need a bit of tweaking to keep it running. This can be fun (and to be fair, a good older 'scope will be relaible if you look after it), but equally, if you're just starting out you may not want to laearn to fix a 'scope just so you can fix your PDP11. But it's something you may well want to do later. As regards bandwidth, for digital work you want a bandwidth of at leaast 3 times the highest frequency you want to look at. But acutally, a 'scope is not that useufl an instruemtn when dealing with purely digital problems (like debuggign the CPU itelsf), a logic analyser is more useful there. I find I use the 'scope more for looking at SMPSUs, motor drivers, that sort of thing. For qhich a 20MHz bandwidth is adequate. Dual trace is almsot essential, dual timebase (only found on a few models, and no modern cheap ones!) is very useful. A good trigger system is probably the msot important thing of all, if you can't keep the trace steady, you can't measure from it. Alas this is one thing that is rarely mentioned. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 2 13:55:13 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 11:55:13 -0700 Subject: New DiscFerret tool released: Merlin In-Reply-To: <4DBDCD15.2090109@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DBDCD15.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: From: Philip Pemberton Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2011 2:14 PM > Hi guys, > I'm going to stick my neck out a bit, and assume you all saw the > screenshots I posted this week. If you didn't, well... you missed a treat :) > I've just committed the current "development alpha" of the DiscFerret > software to the DiscFerret Mercurial repository. You can access the > files at the following address: > http://hg.discferret.com/software/merlin/ Hi, Phil, The universe of interesting names for things in English is of course limited, so this is not a criticism of the name "Merlin" for your latest version. I do feel the need, on the other hand, to point out that "Merlin" is the name of a TOPS-20 disk copy utility (perhaps pan PDP-10, but I've not seen it on other OSes) with the ability to do a sector-level copy of a blown filesystem in order to recover as much data as possible before re-formatting. At least we're in the same general universe of discourse! ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Mon May 2 14:31:01 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 21:31:01 +0200 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) Message-ID: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Having been given, some time ago, 2 8/L core memory stacks to test and then sell, I set about and fired up my 8/L. This 8/L was bought some years ago for around 500 USD, in known working condition. Try this today.... The memory tests revelead that one stack was nearly OK, the other was seriously sick. The nearly OK one was 99.9% OK, but bit 0 @ address 0 was stuck. I intended to live with that, until it was pointed out on classiccmp that address 0 is very essential indeed.... I decided to take the plunge and tried to repair the memories. The sick module was checked out first. Result : around 20 of the select diodes were either shorted, or open ciruit. Further tests show that the coremats themselves were also sick : resistence of sense and inhibit wires varied widely ( normal values are around 19 ohms vor inhibit, 24 ohms for sense wires ). Select wires were all OK. So the stack, made by Dataram, was opened by cutting through 128 wires and separating the upper diode board from the stack. Then the microscope was fired up and I produced some pictures : An overview of the coremat : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/coremat.jpg Strange to find was a whole bunch of very small cupper wire remains, which where below some lacquer, which means they must have been there since the beginning : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/wire_remains.jpg A whole bunch of repairs, covered by some gunk was found. These also were made during production. They were present only on the sense and inhibit wires : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/old_repair.jpg Wait a minute : only on the sense and inhibit wires? which where also the wires with the variables resistance ? So I took out the smallest tip SMD iron I could find and started resoldering these old repairs. See ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/new_repair.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/new_repair2.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/new_repair_3.jpg And yes, with each repair one more sense or inhibit wire was OK. Yes ! Good ! Until, with one of the last repairs, the inhibit wire broke, some few mm inside the coremat... ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/broken_inhibit.jpg In this picture you can seen the green select wire in the middle, which no longer has an accompaning inhibit wire. The other core lines still have the inhibit wire, in parallel with the select line. Major bugger, since the inhibit line is the lowest of the four wires in each core.... I attempted repair by trying to pull out the whole inihibit wire from that line of cores, only to have it break in several more places.... Endgame for this particular stack..... ... and some weeks later i did open the other stack, made by Fabritek. First impression was much better than the Dataram stack, no loose copper wire segments, the pic shows it all : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/coremat_ft.jpg Also far fewer repairs on this one, and much better organized : instead of just soldering the wire-ends together, the wires are soldered together in some spare PCB holes that are sprinkled about the area for that purpose. ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/wire_hole.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/wire_hole2.jpg The reason of the stack failure was soon apparant, see : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/core_broken_ov_ft.jpg In even greater detail the broken core can be seen here : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/core_broken_ft.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/core_broken2_ft.jpg I strongly suspect mechanical stresses are biggest in the corner, which I assume is why this particulare core was broken. But since this core is situated in the coremat corner, surely a repair must be possible ? I started with cleaning out the remains of the wires that connect the coremat-pcb with the diodeboard. And yes it had to happen : a small shift of the soldering iron, and one select line was broken... ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/omg.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/omg2.jpg Luckily it was outside the stack, so the wire could be repaired ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/omg_repaired.jpg Then I took some individual cores from the Dataram mat, here they are, with a small piece of flatcable for size comparison : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/cores.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/cores2.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/cores3.jpg This is the overal location of the broken core repair, the mat edge, with x/y select and sense/inhibit wires. ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/pcb_edge.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/pcb_edge_2.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/pcb_edge_3_ft.jpg So first the X select line was opened, a core was inserted, and the select line soldered in again. See : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/inhibit2.jpg Next line was the inhibit line, the picture also clearly shows the old, broken, core ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/inhinit_mounted.jpg And the sense and Y select wires were routed through : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/repair_full.jpg ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Cores/repair_full_close.jpg Select, sense and inhibit wires where then measured and found to be OK. I was astonished to find that the Cu-wires on this stack were considerably less brittle than the ones of the Dataram stack, although visually they are the same. Pending a company move, the whole setup was now set away for a few weeks. In the new lab I set about reassembling the stack. Which is when disaster struck ... The new magnifying glass setup was unstable and landed where it could cause maximal damage : the coremat itself, with around 40 cores broken........ Major major bummer, and really only myself to blame. Not only was the stack now lost, but I also now cannot produce evidence that the core repair worked. So in conclusion : can core memory stacks be repaired ? Potentially yes, but it is every bit as difficult as you would expect, and only certains failure modes are repairable. In the 8L stack an additional difficulty is the way the stack is build up with 128 wires to be snipped, 128 holes to be cleaned and to be rewired, all without damaging the cores. So i now have 2 stacks, one Fabritek, one Dataram, both opened. Mechanical differences prevent building one good stack from the two damaged ones. The Fabritek has two known good coremat-pcb's, the Dataram has two potentially good coremat PCB's. I have spent rather too much time on this, and am open to offers on these stacks, in the condition described above. If someone wants to sell their known-defective 8L / 8I Dataram/Fabritek corestacks, I would also be interested. Jos Dreesen From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 15:05:46 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:05:46 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: References: <015701cc0847$47693840$d63ba8c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 1, 11 10:32:29 pm Message-ID: <019f01cc0904$546e5da0$fd4b18e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 02 May 2011 19:13 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > Please don't take this as an insult, but I am going to make the same > recoemndation that I made to another list member a few days ago. Read > 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. I think it will help you to > understnd some of these circuits. > No insult taken :-). I studied some basic electronics many many years ago, but definitely not PSUs of any kind, and I remember very little now. I saw that book recommendation and nearly ordered a copy, I will definitely do so now, but I suspect that you need many years' experience to really understand what is going on. Thanks Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 2 15:10:34 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:10:34 +0100 Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU References: <015701cc0847$47693840$d63ba8c0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 1, 11 10:32:29 pm Message-ID: <01a101cc0905$005ca5e0$0115f1a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 02 May 2011 21:06 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 02 May 2011 19:13 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: H7140 PDP11 PSU > > > > Please don't take this as an insult, but I am going to make the same > > recoemndation that I made to another list member a few days ago. Read > > 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. I think it will help > > you to understnd some of these circuits. > > > > No insult taken :-). I studied some basic electronics many many years ago, > but definitely not PSUs of any kind, and I remember very little now. I saw > that book recommendation and nearly ordered a copy, I will definitely do so > now, but I suspect that you need many years' experience to really > understand what is going on. > > Thanks > > Rob For "our" purposes, 1st or 2nd edition? 2nd edition is a lot more expensive. Regards Rob From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 2 15:12:10 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 13:12:10 -0700 Subject: New DiscFerret tool released: Merlin In-Reply-To: References: <4DBDCD15.2090109@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DBF101A.1080903@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > I do feel the need, on the other hand, to point out that "Merlin" is the > name of a TOPS-20 disk copy utility (perhaps pan PDP-10, but I've not seen > it on other OSes) with the ability to do a sector-level copy of a blown > filesystem in order to recover as much data as possible before re-formatting. > At least we're in the same general universe of discourse! ;-) Merlin was also the name of the IBM 3330 DASD subsystem, which was the first to use a voice coil positioner with a servo for track following. The drive of the DEC RP04 was a Sperry clone of the 3330 model 1, and the drive of the RP05/RP06 was a Memorex clone of the 3330 model 11. In a sense, one could use the Merlin program to recover data from a Merlin drive. Eric From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon May 2 16:30:08 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 22:30:08 +0100 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 Message-ID: <4DBF2260.8080304@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone happen to have a working version of news124f1.tgz from the UTZOO Usenet / NetNews archive set? Part of it is currently available from , but the above file is damaged, and all the .toc files are missing... here's what you get if you try and decompress the file: tar: Unexpected EOF in archive tar: Unexpected EOF in archive tar: Error is not recoverable: exiting now 'Nuff said really... if anyone knows of an alternative source for these files (ideally one which has the complete 124F1 file), please let me know! Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon May 2 16:42:36 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 17:42:36 -0400 Subject: Xircom Parallel Port Ethernet.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DBF254C.2020007@atarimuseum.com> Anyone going to VCF East have a spare Xicom Parallel Port Ethernet adapter and MS DOS drivers (Netbios or Novell) they are looking to sell/trade? Let me know off list please... Curt From evan at snarc.net Mon May 2 21:19:46 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 22:19:46 -0400 Subject: Rick Hanson Message-ID: <4DBF6642.5060101@snarc.net> I hate to keep posting sad news .... but there is more .... Rick Hanson, the owner of Club100.org, died of of cancer this weekend. Rick was an incredible asset and friend to the Model 100/102/200 community. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 2 23:29:55 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 21:29:55 -0700 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On 2011 May 2, at 12:31 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Having been given, some time ago, 2 8/L core memory stacks to test and > then sell, I set about and fired up my 8/L. This 8/L was bought some > years ago for around 500 USD, in known working condition. Try this > today.... > > Which is when disaster struck ... The new magnifying glass setup was > unstable and landed where it could cause maximal damage : the coremat > itself, with around 40 cores broken........ > > Major major bummer, and really only myself to blame. Not only was the > stack now lost, but I also now cannot produce evidence that the core > repair worked. > > So in conclusion : can core memory stacks be repaired ? > > Potentially yes, but it is every bit as difficult as you would expect, > and only certains failure modes are repairable. In the 8L stack an > additional difficulty is the way the stack is build up with 128 wires > to be snipped, 128 holes to be cleaned and to be rewired, all without > damaging the cores. > > So i now have 2 stacks, one Fabritek, one Dataram, both opened. > Mechanical differences prevent building one good stack from the two > damaged ones. > > The Fabritek has two known good coremat-pcb's, the Dataram has two > potentially good coremat PCB's. > I have spent rather too much time on this, and am open to offers on > these stacks, in the condition described above. > > If someone wants to sell their known-defective 8L / 8I > Dataram/Fabritek corestacks, I would also be interested. A valiant effort, really too bad you weren't able to at least check out the success of your repairs. I guess you could relegate the planes to wall art now, like so many other core planes. I too have dropped a tool on an open core plane and broken a block of cores (it doesn't take much to crush them) but the plane was being prepared for a wall display and the damage is barely visible so it was no great consequence. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 3 01:11:05 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 02:11:05 -0400 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > So in conclusion : can core memory stacks be repaired ? > > Potentially yes, but it is every bit as difficult as you would expect, and > only certains failure modes are repairable. I think nearly all failure modes can be repaired. When these core planes were being strung, either by women or machine, wire and core breaks were quite common, and it was expected that nearly all core stacks had to have at least some rework. The main issue is that the knowledge to make these repairs is probably fading away fast as the women are dying. -- Will From jonas at otter.se Mon May 2 03:04:14 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 10:04:14 +0200 Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive Message-ID: <4DBE657E.7030302@otter.se> > Dies tguis just miove the head up and down, or does it also move it from > side to side. I am wondering if it's there to adjust the depth of > engagement between the rack and pinion. It moves the heads in an arc around the rack and pinion as a pivot point. The engagement of the pinion does not seem to be adjustable. The motor can be rotated but not shifted radially as far as I can see. Also the track 0 sensor is adjustable. /Jonas From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon May 2 09:20:28 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 10:20:28 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova and Eclipse items for rescue on Vancouver Island In-Reply-To: References: <2C3CCC4DDE984A749D162CB2E2775750@nharrison> Message-ID: Damn, same country, wrong province (Ontario). Though the radar specific equipment an go away, the DG equipment though, is what I'm interested in (and the docs, and the software)... On 1 May 2011 22:16, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 May 1, at 6:29 PM, Dan Cohoe wrote: > >> Hello everyone, >> >> Looks like Canadian Government Surplus has a large pile of old radar items >> including a DG Eclipse S/230 system and some version of a Nova. In the >> picture you can see these items along with a number of large disks and a >> lot >> of documentation. >> >> Auction closes a couple of days from now and I'm in Canada but 3000 miles >> away from it. >> >> The pile is in Ucluelet BC. >> >> Heres a link: >> >> If you can't get right to the item, just use the search term "radar". >> >> >> http://crownassets.pwgsc.gc.ca/mn-eng.cfm?snc=wfsav&sc=enc-bid&scn=69424&lcn >> =213328&lct=L&srchtype=&so=ASC&sf=ferm-clos&lci=&str=1<nf=1&test=1 > > And I'll guess you'll get it for the min bid of 100$, Ucluelet is a small > town way out on the west coast of Vancouver Island, they probably just want > somebody to take the stuff away. Relatively speaking it's close to me, but > Canada is a big place and it's still a ferry trip and 200+ km of winding > road. Spectacular resort area for somebody that wants a scenic holiday > however. > > Tempting to go and just pick up the computer stuff but they'll probably say > you have to clear out everything. > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon May 2 21:57:57 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 2 May 2011 19:57:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 9000 / 9221 Mini Main Frame on eBay In-Reply-To: <201104241149.51535.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <794521.65159.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I suppose there was a reason for someone bidding on it, but how much gold could be recovered from such an item??? From doug at doughq.com Tue May 3 00:11:47 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 15:11:47 +1000 Subject: [alt.folklore.compute...] PDP11GUI: Home page has moved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Joerg, This looks amazing - One question... After installation, I am having problems locating pdp11.ini on a windows7 machine - do you have any ideas? Or is there somewhere I can download it seperately? Doug On Sat, Apr 23, 2011 at 1:40 AM, Richard wrote: > This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the > original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. > > Date: Sun, 17 Apr 2011 11:35:24 +0200 > Groups: alt.folklore.computers,de.alt.folklore.computer,alt.sys.pdp11 > From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?J=F6rg_Hoppe?= > Org: albasani.net > Subject: PDP11GUI: Home page has moved > Id: > ======== > Home page and online doc of PDP11GUI have moved to > www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui > > The download is an attachement now. > > The old page is still alive, but will disappear without further notice. > > Enjoy! > > Joerg Hoppe > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 3 09:18:58 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 10:18:58 -0400 Subject: Xircom Parallel Port Ethernet.... In-Reply-To: <4DBF254C.2020007@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DBF254C.2020007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DC00ED2.8060404@verizon.net> On 05/02/2011 05:42 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone going to VCF East have a spare Xicom Parallel Port Ethernet > adapter and MS DOS drivers (Netbios or Novell) they are looking to > sell/trade? Let me know off list please... > > > > Curt > > > Curt, If you don't find one let me know. I believe I have spare one complete in the box. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 3 11:27:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 09:27:12 -0700 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch>, Message-ID: <4DBFCA70.13380.784BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 May 2011 at 2:11, William Donzelli wrote: > I think nearly all failure modes can be repaired. When these core > planes were being strung, either by women or machine, wire and core > breaks were quite common, and it was expected that nearly all core > stacks had to have at least some rework. > > The main issue is that the knowledge to make these repairs is probably > fading away fast as the women are dying. Weren't some core frames strung with additional lines in case of failure? I definitely recall an IBM field engineer fishing around in the oil of a 7090 with a magnet on the end of a broomstick to find broken core pieces. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 3 12:18:26 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 11:18:26 -0600 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > So in conclusion : can core memory stacks be repaired ? > > > > Potentially yes, but it is every bit as difficult as you would expect, and > > only certains failure modes are repairable. > > I think nearly all failure modes can be repaired. When these core > planes were being strung, either by women or machine, wire and core > breaks were quite common, and it was expected that nearly all core > stacks had to have at least some rework. > > The main issue is that the knowledge to make these repairs is probably > fading away fast as the women are dying. Is it really the knowledge that's fading away or the technique? I mean, seriously, there is nothing complicated about core planes. Its a bunch of toroids with wires strung through them. The difficulty is not in knowing what needs to be done, but the delicacy and patience of doing it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 3 12:24:21 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 13:24:21 -0400 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Mon, May 2, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > Having been given, some time ago, 2 8/L core memory stacks to test and then > sell, I set about and fired up my 8/L.... > > I decided to take the plunge and tried to repair the memories... A valiant effort and very nice photos of the process. I have a 13-bit core stack that came with my first -8/L (the one I've mentioned numerous times here) that failed numerous locations when I tried out a toggle-in memory test. Being a curious teenager, I cut open the stack to find many dozen broken cores near the edge - I'm sure I caused several of them in my inept and crude dismantling of the stack, but I can only plead youthful ignorance and enthusiasm. I still have the parts. I will have to check if it is a Dataram or a Fabritek stack. It's *possible* that only one of the boards has more damage than is worth repairing (there's a gouge about 3mm wide and 30mm long through one bit), but if that board were to be replaced, I might be able to restore the rest of the damage and perhaps make a working 12-bit module out of the mess. I certainly know substantially more about core memory and have a better hand at repair than I did 30 years ago. > The Fabritek has two known good coremat-pcb's, the Dataram has two > potentially good coremat PCB's. > I have spent rather too much time on this, and am open to offers on these > stacks, in the condition described above. I don't know that I could put the "wrong" boards to use, but I might be able to put the right ones to use. I've been interested in expanding my -8/i to 8K for some time now. This could be the right spur to move in that direction. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue May 3 12:24:05 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 13:24:05 -0400 Subject: Anyone here still use Leverage Host on VMS machines? In-Reply-To: <4DC00ED2.8060404@verizon.net> References: <4DBF254C.2020007@atarimuseum.com> <4DC00ED2.8060404@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DC03A35.8050101@atarimuseum.com> I used to do tons of installs of Leverage Host in Vax sites to allow their Novell users to access and use the Vaxes as Novell Servers... anyone here still actively use Leverage Host? Curt > From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 3 12:51:30 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 12:51:30 -0500 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 5/3/11, Jos wrote: >Major major bummer, and really only myself to blame. Not only was >the stack now lost, but I also now cannot produce evidence that the >core repair worked. Jos, you must have felt terrible. I'm really sorry that happened, but I'm awe-struck at the work you put in investigating and repairing that far, to say nothing of photo-documenting the whole way as you went. That was a great job, and I very much appreciate the post. Thank you most kindly! You deserved a much better outcome. On the broken cores, hm ... do the same places that glue logic also glue cores? :-) -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue May 3 13:16:23 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 14:16:23 -0400 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 Message-ID: I can't help you specifically but I note that that tape would've held some posts from mid-1990 and want to wonder out loud: Wonder if the same posts were on the "Usenet CD-ROM's" that were sold (or maybe just discussed) in the early 90's. "Sterling Software" is one name associated with that but I also remember a Vancouver BC based company doing similarly. Likely I just replaced an unreadable tape with an unfindable CD. I have no idea if the "sell-usenet-on-CD's" ever actually sold any. Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 3 14:04:50 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 12:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I can't help you specifically but I note that that tape would've held some > posts from mid-1990 and want to wonder out loud: > > Wonder if the same posts were on the "Usenet CD-ROM's" that were sold (or > maybe just discussed) in the early 90's. > > "Sterling Software" is one name associated with that but I also remember a > Vancouver BC based company doing similarly. > > Likely I just replaced an unreadable tape with an unfindable CD. I have no > idea if the "sell-usenet-on-CD's" ever actually sold any. I remember the company in Walnut Creek, California selling them. When I was stationed on an Aircraft Carrier between '94-96 I'd buy at least some of them, and put them on the laptop I had running Linux. Mostly I bought the Linux CD's, but I also got a few others like USENET, CP-M, OS/2, and others. All my old CD's from that timeframe are something else I should probably get put together in one location. At the moment they're spread throughout the garage, with probably one or two in my Office. Zane From dm561 at torfree.net Tue May 3 14:39:15 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 15:39:15 -0400 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Mon, 02 May 2011 21:31:01 +0200 > From: Jos Dreesen > Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4DBF0675.9000301 at bluewin.ch> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Pending a company move, the whole setup was now set away for a few weeks. > In the new lab I set about reassembling the stack. > > Which is when disaster struck ... The new magnifying glass setup was > unstable and landed where it could cause maximal damage : the coremat > itself, with around 40 cores broken........ > > Major major bummer, and really only myself to blame. Not only was the > stack now lost, but I also now cannot produce evidence that the core > repair worked. > I feel your pain; all that tedious work and then... (a few similar T-shirts in my wardrobe ;-) ) > The Fabritek has two known good coremat-pcb's, the Dataram has two > potentially good coremat PCB's. > I have spent rather too much time on this, and am open to offers on these > stacks, in the condition described above. > > If someone wants to sell their known-defective 8L / 8I Dataram/Fabritek > corestacks, I would also be interested. > > > Jos Dreesen No idea if they're useful or compatible, but I have a damaged MDS core board and a jar of new loose cores in two sizes somewhere, in case you or anyone else is insane enough to consider repairing those boards. mike From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue May 3 15:03:11 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 13:03:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Rick Hanson In-Reply-To: <4DBF6642.5060101@snarc.net> Message-ID: <598606.1649.qm@web113519.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Awwww man... His site is awesome... Sad we are losing great people like him --- On Mon, 5/2/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: > From: Evan Koblentz > Subject: Rick Hanson > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, May 2, 2011, 10:19 PM > I hate to keep posting sad news .... > but there is more .... Rick Hanson, the owner of > Club100.org, died of of cancer this weekend.? Rick was > an incredible asset and friend to the Model 100/102/200 > community. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 3 14:26:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 20:26:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Epson SMD-400 drive In-Reply-To: <4DBE657E.7030302@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at May 2, 11 10:04:14 am Message-ID: > It moves the heads in an arc around the rack and pinion as a pivot > point. The engagement of the pinion does not seem to be adjustable. The That somewhat suprises me, given that you need very little backlash in this mechanism. I;ve still not dug out either of my STs to see if they have this type of drive. It sounds a horrible design, sure, but morbid curiousity means I want to actually see one... > motor can be rotated but not shifted radially as far as I can see. Also Rotating the motor is for the head radial alignmet. The rotor, and thus the pinion, osition si held relative to the stator (motor body) when the thing is at a particular posituon, so rotating the whole motor will move the heads back and forth. That's quite a normal way of doing it (on all types of drive). > the track 0 sensor is adjustable. Again, this is quite standard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 3 15:07:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 21:07:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: H7140 PDP11 PSU In-Reply-To: <01a101cc0905$005ca5e0$0115f1a0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 2, 11 09:10:34 pm Message-ID: > > > Please don't take this as an insult, but I am going to make the same > > > recoemndation that I made to another list member a few days ago. Read > > > 'The Art of Electronics' by Horrowitz and Hill. I think it will help > > > you to understnd some of these circuits. > > > > > > > No insult taken :-). I studied some basic electronics many many years ago, > > but definitely not PSUs of any kind, and I remember very little now. I saw > > that book recommendation and nearly ordered a copy, I will definitely do > so > > now, but I suspect that you need many years' experience to really > > understand what is going on. Unfortuanely SMPSUs are not easy to understand, and there are few really good books on them. And they are not covered in most electronics courses, which is a pity. Yes, I know letting people loose with rectified mains is a recipe for deaths and lawsuits, but you cna make SMPSUs that take any voltage in, so you could learn alot from making one that runs off a bench power uspply (say 12V input). But it's rarely taught... You are, alas, right, about experience. The first thing you discover when you start seriosuly working on classic computers is that you are never going to stop learning new stuff. Good! If I were teaching a course of classic computer repair, I would not start the PSU seciton with the H7140. Mind you, I'd not start the CPU operation section with the PDP11/45 (for much the same reasons, its a complicated design with all sorts of interesting features). But that was the machine I taught myself how to repari from the gorudn up. I started with something complicatedm and so have you... > For "our" purposes, 1st or 2nd edition? 2nd edition is a lot more expensive. Well, I have both, and I refer to them... More seriously the first edition is more contemporary with classic computers, but the second edition has a seciton on SMPSUs (which are not covered at all in the first edition). Said section even includes a schematic of the Tandy 2000 PSU (IIRC). -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 3 15:58:45 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 13:58:45 -0700 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC06C85.80009@bitsavers.org> On 5/3/11 12:04 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I remember the company in Walnut Creek, California selling them. When I was > stationed on an Aircraft Carrier between '94-96 I'd buy at least some of > them, and put them on the laptop I had running Linux. Mostly I bought the > Linux CD's, but I also got a few others like USENET, CP-M, OS/2, and others. > > All my old CD's from that timeframe are something else I should probably get > put together in one location. At the moment they're spread throughout the > garage, with probably one or two in my Office. > I have been working on collecting Walnut Creek CDs for CHM. I don't recall there being Usenet CDs from Walnut Creek, though. Jason at cd.textfiles.com has been doing a great job of CD preservation. Had a chance to talk to him when he was out here a few months ago. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 3 16:48:29 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 14:48:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: <4DC06C85.80009@bitsavers.org> References: <4DC06C85.80009@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 May 2011, Al Kossow wrote: > I have been working on collecting Walnut Creek CDs for CHM. I don't recall > there being Usenet CDs from Walnut Creek, though. There were two main companies I was buying from, if it wasn't Walnut Creek, it must have been the other. > Jason at cd.textfiles.com has been doing a great job of CD preservation. Had > a chance to talk to him when he was out here a few months ago. Definitely an invaluable resource. I was able to find a most interesting 2nd Volume to one set where the first Volume was one of my very first CD-ROM's, that I purchased in Washington DC. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 3 19:45:13 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 20:45:13 -0400 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > Is it really the knowledge that's fading away or the technique? > > I mean, seriously, there is nothing complicated about core planes. > Its a bunch of toroids with wires strung through them. Tricks of the trade that make the job easier. One of the better known tricks it to pull apart a wire to be strung though a line of cores, rather than cutting it normally, so you get a little bit of a needle like tapered end on the wire. -- Will From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 3 20:41:35 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 3 May 2011 20:41:35 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: <05f401cc0454$6d349bb0$479dd310$@ntlworld.com> <5EBD25F0774A4F949232618EC897A2A5@portajara> Message-ID: I took the plunge today of plugging it in and turning the power on no smoke fans work Upper keypad did not light up buti might be missing something other than I still need to get the ars33 working it's living but I think needs the normal cleaning and oiling From evan at snarc.net Tue May 3 23:39:24 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 00:39:24 -0400 Subject: Help needed in Berkeley Calif. area Message-ID: <4DC0D87C.8070404@snarc.net> A friend of mine (who's been trying to join this list!) needs help rescuing something from the Berkeley California area. Contact him privately at ark72axow at msn.com. From bdamer at digitalspace.com Tue May 3 13:38:22 2011 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Tue, 03 May 2011 11:38:22 -0700 Subject: Looking for Sol-20 program DISKT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201105031838.p43IcMrS031469@billY.EZWIND.NET> CC folks, I have a friend who is looking for a copy of Processor Technology's DISKT, their program for exercising the Helios disk drive, anyone have that out there? bruce damer From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed May 4 09:49:41 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 10:49:41 -0400 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) Message-ID: >> Is it really the knowledge that's fading away or the technique? >> >> I mean, seriously, there is nothing complicated about core planes. >> Its a bunch of toroids with wires strung through them. > > Tricks of the trade that make the job easier. > > One of the better known tricks it to pull apart a wire to be strung > though a line of cores, rather than cutting it normally, so you get a > little bit of a needle like tapered end on the wire. One odd thing about these attitudes we have, is that we're almost all male and the folks who did and understood the work and improved the techniques were almost exclusively female. It's sort of like the boatanchor radio groups where we have men lecturing other men as to how to lace cables or properly wrap a wire around a lug before soldering. The women who actually did the work would laugh at all of us :-). I know they laughed at me and other male techies (anywhere from undergrads to professional machinists to full professors!) who sometimes attempted these sorts of tasks! Tim. From classiccmp at crash.com Wed May 4 11:45:00 2011 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 09:45:00 -0700 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC1828C.6000509@crash.com> On 05/03/2011 11:16 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Wonder if the same posts were on the "Usenet CD-ROM's" that were sold (or m= > aybe just discussed) in the early 90's. > > "Sterling Software" is one name associated with that but I also remember a = > Vancouver BC based company doing similarly. Sterling Software was at least successful giving away piles of these CDs at conferences, as I got a couple (which are buried in storage somewhere). I seem to recall that DejaNews (maybe after it got folded into Google?) was at one point asking for people with those CDs to contribute copies so they could complete their coverage. I know I tried to participate, but can't seem to find that email now... /--/Steve. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed May 4 12:10:00 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 13:10:00 -0400 Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: <4DC1828C.6000509@crash.com> References: <4DC1828C.6000509@crash.com> Message-ID: Steve writes: > On 05/03/2011 11:16 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Wonder if the same posts were on the "Usenet CD-ROM's" that were sold (or >> maybe just discussed) in the early 90's. >> "Sterling Software" is one name associated with that but I also remember a > Sterling Software was at least successful giving away piles of these CDs at conferences, as I got a couple (which are buried in storage somewhere). > I seem to recall that DejaNews (maybe after it got folded into Google?) was at one point asking for people with those CDs to contribute copies so they could complete their coverage. I know I tried to participate, but can't seem to find that email now... Circa 2000 http://groups.google.com/googlegroups/archive_hunt.html Help Us Complete the Usenet Archive Google is attempting to compile the most complete archive possible of Usenet posts, and we need help doing it. We are looking for archives pre-dating 1995, in particular the "NetNews CD Series". These CDs were commercially available through Sterling Software and later through CD Publishing Corporation between early 1992 and 1995. The CDs were released separately and each CD covers approximately a two week time span. We've already located NetNews CDs #6 - #31, which cover March 92 through January 93. If you own NetNews CDs or if you know somebody who does, please contact us at groups-support at google.com. We will pay a finder's fee for any NetNews CD we do not own already. Thanks for helping us build the most authoritative Usenet archive online. Thanks, The Google Team From shumaker at att.net Wed May 4 13:32:08 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steven shumaker) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 11:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Laserjet 5SI boards and software Message-ID: <254471.87909.qm@web83916.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I've seen several mentions on here of folks using LJ5 printers... I recently acquired as part of a govt auction, a C3768A Lj5 SI paper handler board and a Token Ring Jetdirect card with Lj5SI drivers for several O/Ss. Status is unknown although they *look* unused in original boxes. Anyone interested can have them for postage from 95006 (I suspect they would fit a medium flat rate box). Steve From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 4 14:49:37 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 14:49:37 -0500 Subject: Since there is no irc talk... In-Reply-To: References: <380-2201150110048412@M2W119.mail2web.com> <013701cc0807$ee5ae7b0$cb10b710$@ntlworld.com> <4DBDE479.8070004@brutman.com> Message-ID: ok then got it working as tdk_knight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 4 14:57:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 20:57:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 3, 11 08:41:35 pm Message-ID: > > I took the plunge today of plugging it in and turning the power on no > smoke fans work You clearly like living dangerously... > Upper keypad did not light up buti might be missing something other HAve you done any electrical tests at all? At the very least you need to check the power supply voltages, without power the machine is not going to do a lot. They, I guess, you have the fun job or debugging the logic > than I still need to get the ars33 working it's living but I think > needs the normal cleaning and oiling They normalyl need that. The manuals are not hard to get off various web sites, I would recoemnd reading them before you start (I did my firstASR33 with no docuamtation at all, I did all the adjustments by thinking what they should do, and it worked second time... But then I had a mis-spent childhood dismantlign and repairing all sorts of things). You want to get the parts book too. It has exploded diagrams of the complete machine, very useful when you want to know where 'that washer' should go... It's been some years since I worked on an ASR33, but it'll all come back to me very quickly... -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 4 15:40:32 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:40:32 -0400 Subject: Older PDP-8 repair (was Re: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Apr 27, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" >>?I built a simple M-series FLIP-CHIP tester with a DEC backplane >> socket and an 6821 PIA, but it was straightforward to abstract >> different arrangements of inputs and outputs for different modules... >> >> Has anyone ever considered building an automated or semi-automated >> R/S-Series module tester? > > Nope, but Vince and I did a project for "single width" M modules. > Expanding to "dual-width" would be relatively easy. > See www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/flipchip/flipchipstartpage.html or via > the updated navigation pane at the left (my projects -> FlipChip tester) > on www.pdp-11.nl That's a lot more elaborate than the one I did - mine, I threw a 6821 and a single socket onto a Radio Shack 44-pin 0.156-spacing prototype module and plugged it into the cartridge slot of a VIC-20. I never made the software fancy, but it was at least a start. I suppose the place to start would be to take the 20 most common modules used in a Straight-8 and -8/S and go through the handbook to map the gozintas and gozoutas. Obviously the power lines are standardized, but I'm in the dark if there's a pattern to the signal lines. This was sitting around as a draft, so I see Dave McGuire posted a list of what's in an -8/S. Looks like the R107, R111, R113, R151, R202, R302 and R401 are the ones to target. The simpler ones like the R001, R002, and W005 can probably be tested with a rotary switch and a VOM. I suppose the W050 lamp driver test could also be automated, but it might take some more complicated hardware if the test were to include current sourcing on top of simple go-no-go functionality. Thanks for the list, Dave. I have all the handbooks and prints - now I know where to start my study. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 4 15:49:03 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 15:49:03 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: has the tools just no idea how to use my scope is a hp 1703A been able to get a line to display but never been able to get it to give me a reading youtube videos have allways left me scratching me head On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I took the plunge today of plugging it in and turning the power on no > > smoke fans work > > You clearly like living dangerously... > > > Upper keypad did not light up buti might be missing something other > > HAve you done any electrical tests at all? At the very least you need to > check the power supply voltages, without power the machine is not going > to do a lot. They, I guess, you have the fun job or debugging the logic > > > than I still need to get the ars33 working it's living but I think > > needs the normal cleaning and oiling > > They normalyl need that. The manuals are not hard to get off various web > sites, I would recoemnd reading them before you start (I did my > firstASR33 with no docuamtation at all, I did all the adjustments by > thinking what they should do, and it worked second time... But then I had > a mis-spent childhood dismantlign and repairing all sorts of things). > > You want to get the parts book too. It has exploded diagrams of the > complete machine, very useful when you want to know where 'that washer' > should go... > > It's been some years since I worked on an ASR33, but it'll all come back > to me very quickly... > > -tony > From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 4 15:52:24 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 13:52:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UTZOO Usenet archive - need file 124f1 In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at "May 4, 11 01:10:00 pm" Message-ID: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com> > > Sterling Software was at least successful giving away piles of these CDs > > at conferences, as I got a couple (which are buried in storage somewhere). This really sounds like something that should be "preserved somewhere." I'm starting to add more archives to the gopher server and having a Usenet archive hosted on Gopherspace seems highly appropriate, actually. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I've been in the van fifteen years, Harry! -- "True Lies" ------------------ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed May 4 16:05:50 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 22:05:50 +0100 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 3, 11 08:41:35 pm Message-ID: <027d01cc0a9f$0dc25860$29470920$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 04 May 2011 20:57 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new here > > > > > I took the plunge today of plugging it in and turning the power on no > > smoke fans work > > You clearly like living dangerously... > > > Upper keypad did not light up buti might be missing something other > > HAve you done any electrical tests at all? At the very least you need to check > the power supply voltages, without power the machine is not going to do a > lot. They, I guess, you have the fun job or debugging the logic > > > than I still need to get the ars33 working it's living but I think > > needs the normal cleaning and oiling > > They normalyl need that. The manuals are not hard to get off various web > sites, I would recoemnd reading them before you start (I did my > firstASR33 with no docuamtation at all, I did all the adjustments by thinking > what they should do, and it worked second time... But then I had a mis-spent > childhood dismantlign and repairing all sorts of things). > > You want to get the parts book too. It has exploded diagrams of the > complete machine, very useful when you want to know where 'that washer' > should go... > > It's been some years since I worked on an ASR33, but it'll all come back to > me very quickly... > > -tony I hope to get an ASR33 one day. When I do, the plan is to get it connected somehow to SIMH running TOPS-20 on the PDP10 emulation, and probably also to my PDP11, when I get that working.... Regards Rob From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:37:25 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:37:25 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: <027d01cc0a9f$0dc25860$29470920$@ntlworld.com> References: <027d01cc0a9f$0dc25860$29470920$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: kool got a h11 with pile of software also On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 04 May 2011 20:57 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: new here > > > > > > > > I took the plunge today of plugging it in and turning the power on no > > > smoke fans work > > > > You clearly like living dangerously... > > > > > Upper keypad did not light up buti might be missing something other > > > > HAve you done any electrical tests at all? At the very least you need to > check > > the power supply voltages, without power the machine is not going to do a > > lot. They, I guess, you have the fun job or debugging the logic > > > > > than I still need to get the ars33 working it's living but I think > > > needs the normal cleaning and oiling > > > > They normalyl need that. The manuals are not hard to get off various web > > sites, I would recoemnd reading them before you start (I did my > > firstASR33 with no docuamtation at all, I did all the adjustments by > thinking > > what they should do, and it worked second time... But then I had a > mis-spent > > childhood dismantlign and repairing all sorts of things). > > > > You want to get the parts book too. It has exploded diagrams of the > > complete machine, very useful when you want to know where 'that washer' > > should go... > > > > It's been some years since I worked on an ASR33, but it'll all come back > to > > me very quickly... > > > > -tony > > I hope to get an ASR33 one day. When I do, the plan is to get it connected > somehow to SIMH running TOPS-20 on the PDP10 emulation, and probably also > to > my PDP11, when I get that working.... > > Regards > > Rob > > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 4 16:38:32 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 14:38:32 -0700 Subject: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do you have documentation for the scope? The HP stuff is usually good about "first time user" guidance. Agilent (the test equipment spin-off from HP) has it online: Google hp1703a manual for the link (it's a weird dynamic link or I'd just include it here). I have two scopes of this line, I can't recall exactly which ones but I think the 1701 and 1702. It's a very good scope, but there are a lot of knobs on the front. :-) Fortunately most things require using only a few of them. You'll want to look at volts/div, which is the input sensitivity and controls the vertical aspect of the display; input coupling (AC/DC/GND), which either allows or removes the DC component of the input signal (or grounds out the input to the channel); time/div, which is the sweep speed and controls the horizontal aspect of the display; and triggering, which controls whether the sweep actually... sweeps! Set it to 'auto' for most purposes, but if you read nothing else from the manual, read about triggering. It gives you a lot of control over what you see on the screen. What I would recommend is using the scope to look at all the voltages from the power supply. Probably the easiest way to do this is to set the input coupling to AC and (with a 10:1 probe, which is what most scopes come with) set the input sensitivity to 0.1v/div, and set the time/div to maybe 10mS or so. This means that each vertical division on the screen represents one volt. If you see one or more volts of waveform with this setup, you have a problem. A ripple of 1v on a 15v line isn't great but isn't a deal-breaker; on a 5v line, it represents a 20% variance over time, which is bad. (Actually, you really don't want more than a token ripple on the 5v rail - even a half-volt is 10% and can really confuse the logic.) Ideally, you would see a flat line; if you switch the input coupling to DC, the trace should displace 1v/div (e.g. the 5v rail would displace five divisions from a no-input trace). To reiterate: with AC coupling, if you're looking at a pure DC input there will be a flat line at zero volts. I know it doesn't need to be said, but I'll say it anyway: be sure you've hooked the ground lead from the probe to a good voltage ground! On the stuff you're working with here, the chassis of the power supply is a ground reference. Cheers -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 1:49 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: new here > > has the tools just no idea how to use > > my scope is a hp 1703A been able to get a line to display but never > been > able to get it to give me a reading youtube videos have allways left me > scratching me head > > On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 2:57 PM, Tony Duell > wrote: > > > > > > > I took the plunge today of plugging it in and turning the power on > no > > > smoke fans work > > > > You clearly like living dangerously... > > > > > Upper keypad did not light up buti might be missing something other > > > > HAve you done any electrical tests at all? At the very least you need > to > > check the power supply voltages, without power the machine is not > going > > to do a lot. They, I guess, you have the fun job or debugging the > logic > > > > > than I still need to get the ars33 working it's living but I think > > > needs the normal cleaning and oiling > > > > They normalyl need that. The manuals are not hard to get off various > web > > sites, I would recoemnd reading them before you start (I did my > > firstASR33 with no docuamtation at all, I did all the adjustments by > > thinking what they should do, and it worked second time... But then I > had > > a mis-spent childhood dismantlign and repairing all sorts of things). > > > > You want to get the parts book too. It has exploded diagrams of the > > complete machine, very useful when you want to know where 'that > washer' > > should go... > > > > It's been some years since I worked on an ASR33, but it'll all come > back > > to me very quickly... > > > > -tony > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed May 4 16:48:37 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 17:48:37 -0400 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DC1C9B5.6060204@atarimuseum.com> I want to add some RF shielding to a new addon device and without having to go with bent aluminum shielding, I thought I'd go the old Apple ][ route and get some spray on RF coating, anyone know where I can purchase that kind of material in a spray can form? Curt From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 4 16:57:40 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:57:40 -0500 Subject: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i duno what probe to use i got a pile of them hp 10005b 10006b 10006d p6021 ac current prop tektronix 010-0237-03 feel like i've gone over my head From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 4 18:07:24 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 16:07:24 -0700 Subject: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming...." :-) The 10006D is named as the stock probe for the HP 1703A - do get the manual, it's a lot of help. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness [tdk.knight at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 2:57 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) i duno what probe to use i got a pile of them hp 10005b 10006b 10006d p6021 ac current prop tektronix 010-0237-03 feel like i've gone over my head From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 4 18:16:05 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 18:16:05 -0500 Subject: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yea just starting to look at it someone in the irc explained couple things On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 6:07 PM, Ian King wrote: > "Just keep swimming, just keep swimming...." :-) > > The 10006D is named as the stock probe for the HP 1703A - do get the > manual, it's a lot of help. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On > Behalf Of Adrian Stoness [tdk.knight at gmail.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 04, 2011 2:57 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) > > i duno what probe to use i got a pile of them > > hp > 10005b > 10006b > 10006d > > p6021 ac current prop tektronix 010-0237-03 > > feel like i've gone over my head > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 4 18:21:56 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 18:21:56 -0500 Subject: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/1060/probes.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 4 18:29:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 May 2011 16:29:08 -0700 Subject: Various interesting stuff FS in Creswell (Eugene) OR Message-ID: <4DC17ED4.392.1C74FEF@cclist.sydex.com> >From Myles Swift: "Please do post it on the Classic list. I have some other items to sell as well - 8 inch external floppy drive, 2 Kaypro 10s, one is #49 from the first run that I pre-ordered. I also have an original IBM PC with a Tall Trees card and a 5 MB CDC hard drive with the lock bar. I have an ATR-8000. That ATR was the first unit with a programmable floppy controller so you could burn floppies for different systems. I think it was designed as an Atari add-on device. That business died when Kaypro included Uniform to perform that function. I also have a Compaq 386, the one that really put Compaq into high gear. I figured I would try offering the heavy stuff locally first before going to ebay. You can forward this list of items to see if anyone on the Classic list is interested. " He also has a Cipher F880 1/2" drive with Cipher S100 controller card. He also says that he's looking for a Pertec Interface Q-bus card. Contact Myles at mswift "at" computerassistance.com. Cheers, Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed May 4 19:00:04 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 00:00:04 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Free AS4100 parts Message-ID: Sorry if this system is still off topic... I have a full set of guts for the 2-CPU version of the Digital AlphaServer 4100. No CPUs, no memory, no expansion boards, no fans, no PSUs, no disks, but all the other parts that could be removed, down to the little metal clips that make an electrical connection between the case and the cover. http://alexeyt.freeshell.org/AS4100_parts.jpg Here's what happened: I got 2 of incomplete systems in the early 2000s, and put them away to play with 'later'. Then I had to move, so I decided I could keep just one. I took out everything in the less complete system that could be removed, and boxed it up. The more complete one went in the basement of the new house. Fast forward 2 years or so: there's a flood in the basement, and the 'good' AS4100 dies under a foot of water :-( By the time the basement dried out enough to get to it, it was so rusted I was unable to open the case. It did, however, save the lives of a half-dozen other machines that were stacked on top of it. For some reason I kept hanging on to the box of spare parts... I have no way of using these, so I figure I sould give them to someone who can. They're yours for the cost of shipping from 27606; it's about 5-6 pounds all told (I'm guessing, I don't have a scale). Alexey From doug at doughq.com Wed May 4 20:08:10 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 11:08:10 +1000 Subject: 8/L core memories ( long, with pic's, hopefully of interest ) In-Reply-To: References: <4DBF0675.9000301@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: What model number was the board (It is lost to my email...) - I suspect I may have a core plane originally from a PDP8 in the garrage that may not be damaged (again - have to check) that I could ship to you. Doug On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 10:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Is it really the knowledge that's fading away or the technique? > > > > I mean, seriously, there is nothing complicated about core planes. > > Its a bunch of toroids with wires strung through them. > > Tricks of the trade that make the job easier. > > One of the better known tricks it to pull apart a wire to be strung > though a line of cores, rather than cutting it normally, so you get a > little bit of a needle like tapered end on the wire. > > -- > Will > From JHMcCarthy at aol.com Wed May 4 20:36:32 2011 From: JHMcCarthy at aol.com (JHMcCarthy at aol.com) Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 21:36:32 EDT Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H Message-ID: Just a historical question. I have a 10 MB IMI drive that was going to be used in the IBM PC-XT back in 1983. Is IMI still in existence? Was it located in Oregon in 1983? --- Jud Justin (Jud) McCarthy 251 SW 9th Ave Boca Raton, FL 33486 Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 jhmccarthy at aol.com From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu May 5 02:16:50 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 08:16:50 +0100 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_hard_disk_manufacturers for a start to your search Dave Caroline On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:36 AM, wrote: > Just a historical question. ?I have a 10 MB IMI drive that was going ?to be > used in the IBM PC-XT back in 1983. ?Is IMI still in existence? ? Was it > located in Oregon in 1983? ? ?--- ? Jud > > Justin (Jud) ?McCarthy > 251 SW 9th Ave > Boca Raton, FL 33486 > Home (561)391-1422 Cell: ?(561)504-7048 > jhmccarthy at aol.com > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 5 02:57:39 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 00:57:39 -0700 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: IMI is long gone If it is an IMI 5012, it's 306cyl, 4 head 17spt, 307/214 rwc/wpc On 5/4/11 6:36 PM, "JHMcCarthy at aol.com" wrote: > Just a historical question. I have a 10 MB IMI drive that was going to be > used in the IBM PC-XT back in 1983. Is IMI still in existence? Was it > located in Oregon in 1983? --- Jud > > Justin (Jud) McCarthy > 251 SW 9th Ave > Boca Raton, FL 33486 > Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 > jhmccarthy at aol.com > From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu May 5 03:02:56 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 01:02:56 -0700 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: Message-ID: And it probably still works.... On 5/5/11 12:57 AM, "Geoffrey Reed" wrote: > IMI is long gone > > If it is an IMI 5012, it's 306cyl, 4 head 17spt, 307/214 rwc/wpc > > > On 5/4/11 6:36 PM, "JHMcCarthy at aol.com" wrote: > >> Just a historical question. I have a 10 MB IMI drive that was going to be >> used in the IBM PC-XT back in 1983. Is IMI still in existence? Was it >> located in Oregon in 1983? --- Jud >> >> Justin (Jud) McCarthy >> 251 SW 9th Ave >> Boca Raton, FL 33486 >> Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 >> jhmccarthy at aol.com >> > > > From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 5 10:45:22 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 10:45:22 -0500 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC1C9B5.6060204@atarimuseum.com> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com> <4DC1C9B5.6060204@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110505154522.GA15155@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (05/04/2011 at 05:48PM -0400), Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I want to add some RF shielding to a new addon device and without having > to go with bent aluminum shielding, I thought I'd go the old Apple ][ > route and get some spray on RF coating, anyone know where I can purchase > that kind of material in a spray can form? You want nickle impregnated spray paint... http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/841.html GC (aka, General Cement) used to offer it too but it doesn't look like they do anymore. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 11:09:26 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 10:09:26 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear Message-ID: OK, so someone gave me a nice 40U equipment rack. I was planning on using it for my Nuclear Data ND812, which has rackmount plates for everything. I first experimented with the empty dual 8" floppy rack unit and a couple things came up. For reference take a look at these photos to see the ND812 rack units: First, I'd like to minimize the potential for scratching the paint on the rack mount plates. Should I use a plastic or teflon washer between the plate and the mounting screw? Like most rackmount equipment, the only support is from that front panel, so it has to be mounted pretty tight to support the weight. The maintenance manual doesn't say anything specific about mounting the equipment in a rack. Is it typical for things to be supported only by that front mounting panel, or do people add some kind of additional support in the rear? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 5 11:20:18 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 11:20:18 -0500 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no its not just face mount theres also some shelf brakets they rest on to help suport it i shoulda grabed the ones for the pdp8 i found not to late to get em but yea On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Richard wrote: > OK, so someone gave me a nice 40U equipment rack. I was planning on > using it for my Nuclear Data ND812, which has rackmount plates for > everything. I first experimented with the empty dual 8" floppy rack > unit and a couple things came up. > > For reference take a look at these photos to see the ND812 rack units: > > > First, I'd like to minimize the potential for scratching the paint on > the rack mount plates. Should I use a plastic or teflon washer between > the plate and the mounting screw? Like most rackmount equipment, the > only support is from that front panel, so it has to be mounted pretty > tight to support the weight. > > The maintenance manual doesn't say anything specific about mounting the > equipment in a rack. Is it typical for things to be supported only by > that front mounting panel, or do people add some kind of additional > support in the rear? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 5 11:29:47 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 17:29:47 +0100 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/05/2011 17:09, Richard wrote: > First, I'd like to minimize the potential for scratching the paint on > the rack mount plates. Should I use a plastic or teflon washer between > the plate and the mounting screw? Yes, but... > The maintenance manual doesn't say anything specific about mounting the > equipment in a rack. Is it typical for things to be supported only by > that front mounting panel, or do people add some kind of additional > support in the rear? It's usual for deep and/or heavy items to be mounted on rails, not by the front panel. Often the holes in the front are just for extra screws to stop the equipment sliding out. None of your pictures show the sides of the equipment; aren't there any screw holes that might indicate there was provision to fit rails? If not, I'd suggest you use a shelf that's supported at front and rear, or (as I did on a unit that was the right size but had neither provision for rails nor a suitable front flange) put some Dexion or steel angle at the appropriate height between the front and rear rack uprights. If you don't, you run the risk of bending the front plate or even the rack, or stripping a screw. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 11:36:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 09:36:49 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DC26FB1.13413.4852D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 11:20, Adrian Stoness wrote: > no its not just face mount theres also some shelf brakets they rest on > to help suport it i shoulda grabed the ones for the pdp8 i found not > to late to get em but yea It's also customary to use oval-head screws and cup washers to secure rackmount panels, although that's a custom that seems to be vanishing. Distributes the load a bit and gives a nice finished look to the mouthing. If you gotta show screwheads, might as well look pretty. You can use commercial slides or just cut up and drill some angle iron to provide support. I've even riveted standard ball-bearing drawer glides to some to provide a pull-out shelf. Looks very professional, particularly if the shelf is covered with laminate or made of appropriately-edged melanine-finished MDF. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Thu May 5 11:36:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 13:36:41 -0300 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear References: Message-ID: > The maintenance manual doesn't say anything specific about mounting the > equipment in a rack. Is it typical for things to be supported only by > that front mounting panel, or do people add some kind of additional > support in the rear? It depends on weight. I have some 19" equipment that is light enough to be supported by the front mounts. But something big like a HP8924C needs back supports. From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu May 5 12:00:17 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 10:00:17 -0700 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <662F33125D46474EB71A505994278833@tegp4> > Date: Wed, 4 May 2011 21:36:32 EDT > From: JHMcCarthy at aol.com > Subject: Re: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Just a historical question. I have a 10 MB IMI drive that was going to > be > used in the IBM PC-XT back in 1983. Is IMI still in existence? Was it > located in Oregon in 1983? --- Jud > > Justin (Jud) McCarthy > 251 SW 9th Ave > Boca Raton, FL 33486 > Home (561)391-1422 Cell: (561)504-7048 > jhmccarthy at aol.com The IMI 10 MB was never used in the IBM PC/XT; IBM's suppliers were Seagate, MiniScribe and CMI. The IMI drive was likely used in clones. CMI is most famous for its exclusive contract to supply the PC/AT drives which then almost sunk the AT due to their high apparent failure rate. If anyone has a copy of the Core International advertisement offering to build a breakwater at Boca with trade-ins I'd love a copy. Only Seagate survived. Tom From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 12:10:34 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 11:10:34 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: In article <4DC2D07B.3060309 at dunnington.plus.com>, Pete Turnbull writes: > It's usual for deep and/or heavy items to be mounted on rails, not by > the front panel. None of these racks have rail mounts. All of them have casings that have small machine screws that attach the casing to the sides. > If not, I'd suggest you use a shelf that's supported at front and rear, OK, but the shelves I've seen attach to the racks at the same place where the faceplates would attach to the rack. So how do you accommodate both? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 12:15:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 10:15:40 -0700 Subject: Drive Type International Memories, Inc. (IMI) 5012H In-Reply-To: <662F33125D46474EB71A505994278833@tegp4> References: , <662F33125D46474EB71A505994278833@tegp4> Message-ID: <4DC278CC.3449.6BE72B@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 10:00, Tom Gardner wrote: > Only Seagate survived. Miniscribe did, as a Maxtor acquisition. I have a drive here using a Miniscribe casting (has the name on it), but with a Maxtor label. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 5 12:37:34 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 10:37:34 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DC2E05E.8030201@jwsss.com> On 5/5/2011 10:10 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4DC2D07B.3060309 at dunnington.plus.com>, > Pete Turnbull writes: > >> It's usual for deep and/or heavy items to be mounted on rails, not by >> the front panel. > None of these racks have rail mounts. All of them have casings that > have small machine screws that attach the casing to the sides. > >> If not, I'd suggest you use a shelf that's supported at front and rear, > OK, but the shelves I've seen attach to the racks at the same place > where the faceplates would attach to the rack. So how do you > accommodate both? There are some that mount from the rear of the retma rail in the front, and some that mount upside down where there is not equipment below to interfere. Microdata used a custom sheet metal house, Full Metal fab to do all of their units and though you would think there would be interferences, they designed the trays where they were used to attach and not interfere with the equipment bay retma attachments. If you have modern trays and can do it, mount them upside down. This assumes they don't have any downward protruding lips which would then be upward interfering with the equipment. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu May 5 12:41:45 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:41:45 +0100 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I have rack shelves that sandwich behind the rack mounts and wrap under the device, like the rack tray here http://www.leadsdirect.co.uk/productinfo/rackaccessories.html or something like http://www.bryant-unlimited.co.uk/HDRS%2002B Dave Caroline From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 5 13:02:45 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 14:02:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2011, Richard wrote: > First, I'd like to minimize the potential for scratching the paint on > the rack mount plates. Should I use a plastic or teflon washer between > the plate and the mounting screw? Like most rackmount equipment, the > only support is from that front panel, so it has to be mounted pretty > tight to support the weight. I've used aluminum angle stock, 1/8"x2"x2", and bolted it to the inside of the cabinet on each side, between the front and rear rack columns. Home Depot carries it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 12:50:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:50:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Scoping the supply lines (was RE: new here) In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 4, 11 04:57:40 pm Message-ID: > feel like i've gone over my head > Yes, you probably have. Just like I did when I got my PDP11/45. Like Jos did when he was working on core memory planes. In fact like most of us do from time to time :-) Rememebr it's a _hobby_. Nobody is forcing you to do this. If you don't enjoy it, do something else :-). If you don't want to do a particular thing now, leave it for a bit. If you have to learn how to do something, it's good to learn things. But I will tell you this. The feeling when you do repair something, when you do figure out how something works and how to use it, and so on, is a great feeling. It more than maks up for all the hours of learning how to use test gear, clecning cabinets and keycaps (one of my least favourite jobs), reading scehamtics until the small hours, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 13:02:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 19:02:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at May 5, 11 10:09:26 am Message-ID: > First, I'd like to minimize the potential for scratching the paint on > the rack mount plates. Should I use a plastic or teflon washer between > the plate and the mounting screw? Like most rackmount equipment, the > only support is from that front panel, so it has to be mounted pretty > tight to support the weight. > > The maintenance manual doesn't say anything specific about mounting the > equipment in a rack. Is it typical for things to be supported only by > that front mounting panel, or do people add some kind of additional > support in the rear? Very few devices are designed ot be hung on their front panels. The ones that are at short from front to back and quite light in weight. Things like connector panals, power controllers, flip-chip backplanes, etc Procesosr,s drives, interfaces, etc always need more support. Holdign them by the panel only will damage them. There are 2 main ways that this is done. Some units have proper rack silde rails. These are boltaed to the front and rear uprights of the rack. The inside part of the rail is screwed to the side oif the device. The unit can be pulled out onn the rails for servicing. The other way is to ut a couple of lengths of metal angle between the front and rear rails at each side. These support the bottom edges of the unit, itjust rests on them. Serviicng may be more difficult, particularly if you have ot pull the unit out top get to PCBs. In both caes the front panel screws just prevern the unit from sliding out of the rack on its own. They don't support the weight. So they are not that tight. It is common, thoguh, to put a plastic washer between th escrehad and the panel to prvent marking the paintwork. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 5 12:42:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 18:42:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: new here In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 4, 11 03:49:03 pm Message-ID: > > has the tools just no idea how to use > > my scope is a hp 1703A been able to get a line to display but never been > able to get it to give me a reading youtube videos have allways left me > scratching me head Before you use the 'scope to check for supply line ripple, I would check the DC votlage of all the suppl lines using a multimeter. I asusme you have a digital multimeter rather than an analogue one, but I have no idea which one you hve and whether it has automatic or manual range selection. But the procedure is muc hte same in all cases. If it's an autoranging meter, switch it to the DC votlage (DCV) setting. If it's a manual range meter, switch it to a DC voltage range highr than the rail you awnat ot check, but not too high. Most meters have ranges 2V, 20V, 200V. The 20V ranges is the one you want for most computer PSU voltage tests. Connct the black lead of the meter to the computer 0V (logic ground) rail. In most DEC machbines this is connected to the metal casing. Touch the red probe onto the power rail you want to test with the machine turned on. Finding the power rails is the major problem, actually. You might use the pwoer pins of an IC on one of the boards. Or a pin on the connector between the power suypply and the backplane. Read the votlage on the meter :-). Now for 'scopes. I don;t know your 'scope (I prefer Tektronix...), but all 'scopes have simialr features. I would try to get the manual for the 'scope you have, it may well be on the Agilent website (they are putting up scans of a lot of their older instrument manuals). However, most test instument manuals assume you already know the basic principles of using such an instrument amd just explain the features of that particular one. The older non-digital CRT-based 'scope is a fairly simple instrument, and modern digital 'scopes have generally beed designed to work in much the same wayy for the user. The basics are : The electron beam in the CRT makes a bright dot on the screen. There are obvious controls for controlling the brightness and shapness (focus and astigmatism) of the spot. The input signal moves the spot vertically. There will be an intenral amplifier which will have a gain control calrated in 'volts per cm' or something similar (sometimes 'volters per division where a 'division' is one the squares on the graticule on the front of the CRT). If you wet that to 2V/cm and the spot moves by 2.4cm high on the screen, then that means the input is 4.8V Horizotnally, the spot is moved by a 'ramp' voltage from an internal timebase circuit. It moves from left to right at a constant speed and then quickly flies back to the left and repeats. The speed is controlled by a control calibrated in 'ms/cm' or something similar. Thus the 'scope ploits and displays a graph of the input voltage against time. You can m,easure the time between parts of the waveform (say time between peaks) or the votlage between parts of the waveform There are 2 other fauters that need mentioning. The first is the tirgger sicut. The purpose of that is to make the timebase wait for a particular input voltage (and the right direction of change) of the input signal. The idea is that assumign the input signal is repetitive, the timebase will start on a corresponding point of the wavefor each time, so you will get a steady trace on the screen that you can easily view ans makemeasueemtns from (as an aside, the purpose of storage 'scopes, whether analoge or digital, is to be able to hadnle non-repetitive waveforms. You effectively record the waveform for one sweep of the timebace and display it for evermore). The oterh feature is 'AC coupling' Most 'scopes have a swixch in thge vertical section for htis. It has the same effect as connecting a capacitor in series iwth the input signal (in fact in most caes that's what it really does). It removees the steady DC component of the inptu signal and only lets the AC part through to the amplifier. For example, suppose you have 100V supply rail with 0.1V ripple on it, and you want to look at the ripple. To display that supply rail, you probably have to set the Y amplifier to 50V/cm, which means the ripples is 0.02mm high. You can't see that. If you switch to AC coupling, the steady 100V is ignored, so you can turn up the gain of the Y amplifer, perhaps to 0.1V/cm at which point the ripple is easy to see. A word about probes. Most times you use a proper 'scope probe. This has a gorund lead which is actually conencted to mains earth throguh the 'scope so you can't connect it to just any point in the circuit. However, connecting it to the logic ground rail is fine (and what youshould do). Do not however assupe that the conenction through the mains earth is enough (and that you cna ignore the ground lead), it may be OK for low frequencies, but at high frequences the inducatance of that path through the mains earth wires is enough to mess up the display. Most 'scope probles sau '*10' or somethign similar on them. This means they attenuate the signal by a factor of 10. If you set the 'scope to 0.5V/cm when using such a probe the real sensitivity is 5V/cm. There are good reason ofr having this attenuation in the probe, mainly reducing the effectif ogf the capacitance of the cable to the 'scope on the circuit under test. Will that get you started? -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 5 13:36:42 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 12:36:42 -0600 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <20110505154522.GA15155@n0jcf.net> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com> <4DC1C9B5.6060204@atarimuseum.com> <20110505154522.GA15155@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/5/2011 9:45 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (05/04/2011 at 05:48PM -0400), Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> I want to add some RF shielding to a new addon device and without having >> to go with bent aluminum shielding, I thought I'd go the old Apple ][ >> route and get some spray on RF coating, anyone know where I can purchase >> that kind of material in a spray can form? > > You want nickle impregnated spray paint... > > http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/841.html > > GC (aka, General Cement) used to offer it too but it doesn't look like > they do anymore. > > Chris > I wonder if it would work on tubes? Ben. From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Thu May 5 14:07:12 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 12:07:12 -0700 Subject: Thinning the herd. Message-ID: Hunter S. Thompson once said; ".... but once you get into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can..." My drug, of course was classic computers. I shared this "hobby" with my father, whom was retired USAF and retired TWA aircraft mechanic. We would tinker with all sorts of stuff we collected and finally when we had no more room, built a small storage shed.Then a few more, until we had about 2-3. When I had to downsize because of the economy and moved, I stored my collection inside the various sheds we built on his large parcel of land in the Sonoran dessert, Putting them away when we finished or stored them to await further restoration. I don't know how many pdp's or HP we restored or fix to working condition, then gave away to students in the area. I was the bigger collector though. I was most interested in all the DEC stuff we got at auction for next to nothing; alphas, vax;s the occasional pdp's. But I also collected anything that was "pre-80's' Well, my father passed away last month. We had already stopped working on stuff when he was diagnosed with Alzheimers. I would always be back at the shed picking through stuff for my projects. Unfortunately, much of the stuff that was well-ordered and nicely on racks, etc was taken doen when my dad would be searching for stuff and couldn't remember what he was looking for.A lot of the stuff was "reordered" and some "lost" or stored in one of the sheds that lost it's roof in a fierce storm and was all waterlogged. But a lot is still OK. It took me only a few days recently, to realize, that I should be thinning this heard down. My mother may decide to move as she gets older and I cannot move all this stuff to storage. Much of it is commodity stuff. By that I mean it was part of the "lots" we would buy at the university auctions. For one item we wanted, we had to but the whole lot. Much was discarded, but some of it still remains. Sun and SGI stuff, older HP stuff. The stuff I valued, DEc stuff and my pre-80's stuff too need to be taken care of. I have decided to "sell" a bunch of the stuff. Those that will still fetch a decent price on Ebay. Most of the money will go to my mom as her income has been greatly diminished by my fathers death. And besides, she put up with us for all those years. Other stuff, I'll sell to anyone interested in throwing a few buck my way. A lot of stuff is just to be given away. So I"ll be doing triage at first. It is getting "warm" here in SE arizona, on it way to HOT and I'll be doing triage slowly, in the morning and it will take months. There is a lot of stuff I'll give away to anybody that wants it, some is in great condition, some terrible, I'll let you know which. I have lots of odd cabling and lots of odd stuff. If you are looking for something. let me know. I also have lots of documentation and some of it I know Al Kossow was interested in. I soon as I find a cheap/fee web space. I'll start posting what is available, rather than cluttering this mailing list. But here are a few things: A complete IBM RT system (romp processor) with most/all the software and documentation. A couple of AT&T systems, a "lot" of qbus pdp and vax stuff. An 11/04 unibus system with third part floppy's and an TV07 tape drive ( tape drive complete but not functioning) along with the "PDP" rack it's in. A Tektronix 4051 computer, a OSI superboard, a few HP 9000/300 systems. Lots of tabletop vaxes and alphas. a lot of vt 520 terminals, as well as some ADM-3A, VT100's, Vt 220. Vt 320''s and other odd terminals. A few of the Qbus Mac cards. If you are near Tucson Arizona or are coming to the area this summer, you may be able to pick it up in person, or maybe pick through all the stuff. This is not a fire sale! I have decided to let it go slowly as the day may come where I would have to get rid of it fast, but not now. But I'm ready to deal and while most of this stuff isn't really rare and expensive, it;s still worth a few sheckles to collectors. and the money's going to a good cause. Cheers Tom P. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 5 14:09:53 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 20:09:53 +0100 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC2F601.7030601@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/05/2011 19:02, Tony Duell wrote: > > Very few devices are designed ot be hung on their front panels. The ones > that are at short from front to back and quite light in weight. Things > like connector panals, power controllers, flip-chip backplanes, etc Network switches are almost always mounted by the front flange -- but if they're heavy, they're also tall, so the twisting moment is small and distributed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 14:25:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 12:25:08 -0700 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com>, <20110505154522.GA15155@n0jcf.net>, <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DC29724.27272.E26DE1@cclist.sydex.com> When we were building cases from structural foam, we'd have the paint place spray the inside with metallic zinc, which did the job. I think this stuff is the rattle-can equivalent (there are many brands of the stuff): http://www.net4sale.com/Shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=12 --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 5 14:24:44 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 15:24:44 -0400 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com> <4DC1C9B5.6060204@atarimuseum.com> <20110505154522.GA15155@n0jcf.net> <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DC2F97C.8010905@atarimuseum.com> Thanks, that'll do the trick and I found a distributor right up in CT not far from me.... ben wrote: > On 5/5/2011 9:45 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> On Wednesday (05/04/2011 at 05:48PM -0400), Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> I want to add some RF shielding to a new addon device and without >>> having >>> to go with bent aluminum shielding, I thought I'd go the old Apple ][ >>> route and get some spray on RF coating, anyone know where I can >>> purchase >>> that kind of material in a spray can form? >> >> You want nickle impregnated spray paint... >> >> http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/841.html >> >> GC (aka, General Cement) used to offer it too but it doesn't look like >> they do anymore. >> >> Chris >> > > I wonder if it would work on tubes? > Ben. > From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 14:27:49 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 13:27:49 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. This really helps me out and confirms my queasiness at just mounting things from the front flanges. I'm glad I experimented with the empty floppy rack unit first :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 5 14:22:14 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 20:22:14 +0100 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: <4DC2D07B.3060309@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DC2F8E6.3080308@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/05/2011 18:10, Richard wrote: > Pete Turnbull writes: >> If not, I'd suggest you use a shelf that's supported at front and rear, > > OK, but the shelves I've seen attach to the racks at the same place > where the faceplates would attach to the rack. So how do you > accommodate both? I suspect you're thinking of what we call "cantilever shelves" like the ones in the first page Dave suggested (they call them "rack trays") -- they mount on the front of the front column. I mean a rectangular platform that bolts to the inner faces (not the front or back faces) of the front and rear columns of the rack. On the ones we have, the mounting faces of the shelf are /below/ the upper surface. eg http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=157&pageNum=0&blk=78 or http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=157&pageNum=0&blk=78 or even http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=140&pageNum=0&blk=78 but not http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=131&pageNum=0&blk=78 which are a pain in the proverbial. Or you could use these: http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=158&pageNum=0&blk=78 by pretending your server is a rather thick shelf :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 5 14:58:14 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 15:58:14 -0400 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC29724.27272.E26DE1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com>, <20110505154522.GA15155@n0jcf.net>, <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DC29724.27272.E26DE1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com> Which do you think is more effective - Zinc or Nickle flake ? Curt Chuck Guzis wrote: > When we were building cases from structural foam, we'd have the paint > place spray the inside with metallic zinc, which did the job. > > I think this stuff is the rattle-can equivalent (there are many > brands of the stuff): > > http://www.net4sale.com/Shop/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=42&idcategory=12 > > --Chuck > > > From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu May 5 15:35:49 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:35:49 +0000 Subject: Thinning the herd. Message-ID: <201105052035.p45KZo9a005173@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> Tom, I'm very sorry to hear your dad passed away. That's a hard lesson for us all that the real classics are people, and they can't be replaced. I would love to see all the machines and parts you have collected over the years but I am a million miles away and had a recent personal "economic downturn" that leaves me happy to have a roof and a piece of bread. Good luck to you and your mom and I hope whatever else you have to part with won't hurt nearly as much. -- +---------------------------------------+--------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online Com | Collecting software and doc | | ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | for S/360 through OS/390 | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:03:05 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 14:03:05 -0700 Subject: Thinning the herd. In-Reply-To: <201105052035.p45KZo9a005173@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> References: <201105052035.p45KZo9a005173@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, Thanks so much for your thoughts. I know how it is I was "downsized" several years ago and am only now getting back to where I was. But even when I was poor, I was classic computer rich!! LOL. I didn't want to sell, even then, a lot of stuff I have collected, though the market for some collectible classics was much higher than today and needed the money even worse. I do need to "off load" some of the stuff I have. A lot of it will be free or for beer money for anybody who wants to come for it. But the more rare and collectible items will go to the "Mom fund". I hope to be putting out a list and pix of some of the stuff for all list members. Cheers Tom On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 1:35 PM, wrote: > Tom, I'm very sorry to hear your dad passed away. That's a hard lesson for > us all that the real classics are people, and they can't be replaced. > > I would love to see all the machines and parts you have collected over the > years but I am a million miles away and had a recent personal "economic > downturn" that leaves me happy to have a roof and a piece of bread. > > Good luck to you and your mom and I hope whatever else you have to part > with won't hurt nearly as much. > > -- > +---------------------------------------+--------------------------------+ > | Vintage Coder America Online Com | Collecting software and doc | > | ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | for S/360 through OS/390 | > |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| > | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | > |=======================================+================================| > | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | > | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | > +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 5 16:16:38 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 16:16:38 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: kool On Tue, Apr 26, 2011 at 6:34 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > On 4/24/11 10:04 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> There are quite a few PDP8 owners/enthiasts here. I've got an 8/e with > >> 32K words of core, RX01, TU56 and PC04 on my desk. I've also got an 8/a > >> upstairs somewhere, but it's got the 8/e CPU board set in it, not the > >> hex-height 8/a CPU board. I am told that was a stnadard variant. > > We (RICM) have an 8/I with 5x TU55 drives, a pair of bare 8/L, and a > very functional 8/S that now runs FOCAL. > > I can give plenty of advice on ferroresonant power supply capacitors. > Advice is easy to supply. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 16:44:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 14:44:56 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC2F8E6.3080308@dunnington.plus.com> References: , , <4DC2F8E6.3080308@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 20:22, Pete Turnbull wrote: > http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=131&pag > eNum=0&blk=78 which are a pain in the proverbial. > > Or you could use these: > http://www.dataracks.co.uk/products/accessories/shelves/?artid=158&pag > eNum=0&blk=78 by pretending your server is a rather thick shelf :-) Those look pretty flimsly. The Fuji X2444 tape drive in mine is supported by heavy steel fron-to-back brackets. But then the drive weighs well over 100 lbs. I've got it installed in an old HP Storage Array rack--and I repurposed a few of the drive support brackets as equipment supports as well. If you're going to load heavy gear into a tall rack with roll-around casters, make sure that it has an anti-tip feature, should you hit a bump in the floor. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 16:46:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 14:46:38 -0700 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com>, <4DC29724.27272.E26DE1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DC2B84E.12910.163F7EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 15:58, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Which do you think is more effective - Zinc or Nickle flake ? Copper- or silver-flake, but I suspect that zinc or nickle are about equivalent for RFI shielding. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu May 5 18:01:00 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 00:01:00 +0100 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DC2F8E6.3080308@dunnington.plus.com> <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DC32C2C.5060502@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/05/2011 22:44, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Those look pretty flimsly. The Fuji X2444 tape drive in mine is > supported by heavy steel fron-to-back brackets. But then the drive > weighs well over 100 lbs. I've got it installed in an old HP Storage > Array rack--and I repurposed a few of the drive support brackets as > equipment supports as well. Those support rails are actually pretty strong, the steel is thicker than it looks. > If you're going to load heavy gear into a tall rack with roll-around > casters, make sure that it has an anti-tip feature, should you hit a > bump in the floor. We never roll racks around except when empty; all ours are mounted on plinth feet rather than casters. In data centres, they only get moved whn commissioned or decommissioned, and in wiring centres, well, they're kind of tethered :-) And at home I don't have any space left to move the racks :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ss at allegro.com Thu May 5 18:08:44 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 16:08:44 -0700 Subject: IBM 5100 power supply available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Pierre de Globe, at pierrebeau at globetrotter.net , wrote me, saying: I have for sale a power supply unit for an early 1975 IBM 5100 the model one with a cassette drive. If interested, contact me. I wasn't interested, and after exchanging an email or two, I volunteered to post the above here in case anyone wants a power supply. If you're interested, email Pierre. Don't email me :) (I have no other information about the power supply or Pierre.) thanks, Stan From ss at allegro.com Thu May 5 18:20:11 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 16:20:11 -0700 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: re: > With the addition of two more Tektronix 4015-1 terminals, I've > rearranged my Tektronix storage tube terminals in the warehouse and > uploaded some updated pictures of "Tektronix storage tube row". (The > 4015-1 is essentially a 4014 with APL and printer interface options.) > Neither of the 4015's are reported to be in working condition from the > seller, but at least all the keycaps with APL glyphs are present. The Wow, lucky! I used a 4015 for APL programming on a Burroughs B6700 for awhile ... it took me *decades* to break the habit of clearing the screen when the cursor got near the bottom :) I remember when I first saw HP's HP2641 terminal ... I was disappointed it couldn't do all the overstrikes that the Tektronix 4015 could do. Of course, the Tek terminal *really did overstrikes*. The HP 2641 read what was in memory before, considered what was being "overwritten", and replaced the character in memory with the appropriate combination character ... if it had one. Otherwise, you'd see only the second character (IIRC). I.e., it implemented a (small) set of known overstrike characters as separately encoded characters in ROM, and did a two-character lookup to find one when needed. OTOH, the 2641 could scroll :) Stan From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 5 20:00:56 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:00:56 -0400 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC2B84E.12910.163F7EE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201105042052.p44KqOkT016298@floodgap.com>, <4DC29724.27272.E26DE1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com> <4DC2B84E.12910.163F7EE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DC34848.1030009@atarimuseum.com> Thanks!!! Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 May 2011 at 15:58, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > >> Which do you think is more effective - Zinc or Nickle flake ? >> > > Copper- or silver-flake, but I suspect that zinc or nickle are about > equivalent for RFI shielding. > > --Chuck > > From chrise at pobox.com Thu May 5 20:28:43 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:28:43 -0500 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca> <4DC29724.27272.E26DE1@cclist.sydex.com> <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110506012843.GI1011@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (05/05/2011 at 03:58PM -0400), Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Which do you think is more effective - Zinc or Nickle flake ? Ah... the solid metal enclosure that you didn't want ;-) Any sort of (spray) paint on shielding is a compromise. There are challenges in getting it bonded well to the actual ground and in getting a uniform and consistent coating that maintains the shield. You really need to know what the emission levels are before you paint it... and then again afterward... to see if you've made a noticeable (or acceptable) improvement. The whole situation is then also frequency dependent... so again, you need to know where the hot spots are and address those accordingly. Are you making a thing you are going to sell and needs FCC part 15 (or other authority) compliance or are you trying to fix a one-off project that is interfering with something? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu May 5 20:36:19 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:36:19 -0400 Subject: Thinning the herd. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC35093.6050705@compsys.to> Tom, you have my condolences as well. I hope you are able to manage the thinning. Perhaps you can pass along some tips. While I have much less of a collection (90% Qbus PDP-11 in BA23 and BA123 boxes), the basement is still full. Fortunately, the big racks that held RL01 / RL02 drives, the drives themselves and most of the packs are gone along with LA120 printers and 9 track tape drives, i.e. the really big, heavy stuff. At 72 years old, I can still lift a BA23 box (especially without the plastic skins), but the BA123 is beyond my capability - except to roll around on a flat surface. I will probably want to keep at least a few running PDP-11 Qbus systems, but there seems little interest in the others. Please let us know the best way to dispose of your collection. As for what you have, I am an RT-11 software addict. While most of the approximately 25 RT-11 binary distributions have been preserved (although the condition of pre V04.00 distributions is questionable), the languages and other support products are few and far between. Commented source code is even more rare. If you have any of that stuff, please let me know. Jerome Fine From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 5 21:55:22 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 19:55:22 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DC2F8E6.3080308@dunnington.plus.com> <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 2:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Those look pretty flimsly. ?The Fuji X2444 tape drive in mine is > supported by heavy steel fron-to-back brackets. ?But then the drive > weighs well over 100 lbs. ?I've got it installed in an old HP Storage > Array rack--and I repurposed a few of the drive support brackets as > equipment supports as well. 100 lbs? More like 200 lbs according to the manual. That seems about right from when I had to move my M2444AC up a couple of stairs out of the garage by myself. -Glen From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 22:13:02 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:13:02 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DC2F8E6.3080308@dunnington.plus.com> <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > If you're going to load heavy gear into a tall rack with roll-around > casters, make sure that it has an anti-tip feature, should you hit a > bump in the floor. What exaclty is an "anti-tip feature"? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 5 22:15:50 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:15:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: from Richard at "May 5, 11 09:13:02 pm" Message-ID: <201105060315.p463FoRI016966@floodgap.com> > > If you're going to load heavy gear into a tall rack with roll-around > > casters, make sure that it has an anti-tip feature, should you hit a > > bump in the floor. > > What exaclty is an "anti-tip feature"? A strategically placed disposable redshirt assistant. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Murphy's Law is recursive. Washing your car to make it rain doesn't work. -- From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 5 22:18:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 20:18:08 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 19:55, Glen Slick wrote: > 100 lbs? More like 200 lbs according to the manual. That seems about > right from when I had to move my M2444AC up a couple of stairs out of > the garage by myself. no doubt; it's pretty beefy. I seem to recall that the hard part was getting it safely from the bed of my pickup to the mover's dolly on the floor. I needed help with that. A neighbor and a couple of microbrews took care of that, but he didn't want to attempt the stairway... After that, it was floor of the garage, to some 2x6s over the stairs, off the dolly, up to the office and the dolly and thence into the rack, which already had the slides installed. There are some times that you're grateful for friction. If I have to move it out, I figure it'd just be easier to torch the place and collect the insurance money... --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 5 22:18:25 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 20:18:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <794408.65703.qm@web121605.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/5/11, Richard wrote: > > What exaclty is an "anti-tip feature"? Most racks have a pull out stabilizer of some kind, or even jutting out little "feet" to prevent them from tipping over forwards while you pull heavy things out on the rails. So, in order to pull out a device, first you pull out the anti-tip bar at the bottom, then pull out the device. The DEC H960 racks don't have that pull-out bar, instead they have two feet that stick out the front of the cabinet a foot or so, and serve to trip people walking too close to the computer... -Ian From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 22:18:45 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:18:45 -0600 Subject: Tektronix photos updated In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Stan Sieler writes: > OTOH, the 2641 could scroll :) And erase! I have a bunch of HP 264x and 262x terminals as well. I need to start photodocumenting more of the computer graphics history museum's collection. This will mostly happen concurrently with me creating a catalog database with Collective Access. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 22:19:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:19:42 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <201105060315.p463FoRI016966@floodgap.com> References: <201105060315.p463FoRI016966@floodgap.com> Message-ID: In article <201105060315.p463FoRI016966 at floodgap.com>, Cameron Kaiser writes: > > > If you're going to load heavy gear into a tall rack with roll-around > > > casters, make sure that it has an anti-tip feature, should you hit a > > > bump in the floor. > > > > What exaclty is an "anti-tip feature"? > > A strategically placed disposable redshirt assistant. *giggle* -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 5 22:23:20 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 21:23:20 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DC2B7E8.22457.1626C5C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 5 May 2011 at 19:55, Glen Slick wrote: > > > 100 lbs? More like 200 lbs according to the manual. That seems about > > right from when I had to move my M2444AC up a couple of stairs out of > > the garage by myself. > > no doubt; it's pretty beefy. > > I seem to recall that the hard part was getting it safely from the > bed of my pickup to the mover's dolly on the floor. I believe I have this same drive. Its damned heavy. IIRC, I used a ramp and a winch strap to inch it into the back of my car and then had help unloading/moving it. Currently its sitting on the base shelf of a 3' high 19" rack with casters so I can move the thing about. Mine has a Pertec interface. I picked it up from a local seller for $0.99 on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 6 00:00:24 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 22:00:24 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 21:23, Richard wrote: > I believe I have this same drive. Its damned heavy. IIRC, I used a > ramp and a winch strap to inch it into the back of my car and then had > help unloading/moving it. Currently its sitting on the base shelf of > a 3' high 19" rack with casters so I can move the thing about. > > Mine has a Pertec interface. I picked it up from a local seller for > $0.99 on ebay. - Got you beat by $0.99. A friend had one sold as surplus inventory by Intel. Brand-new, still in original packing with all the paperwork and rack mounts and a note taped to the front: '''Won't power up". He figured that he'd never get around to fixing it, so he offered it to me if I'd get it out of his garage. I was all set for a nice troubleshooting session, when I looked at the voltage-select jumpers on the rear. They were set for 240VAC and the unit shipped with a 120VAC line cord. Swapped a couple of jumpers and the thing came right up. Sometimes you get lucky. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 6 00:14:52 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 23:14:52 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 5 May 2011 at 21:23, Richard wrote: > > > I believe I have this same drive. Its damned heavy. IIRC, I used a > > ramp and a winch strap to inch it into the back of my car and then had > > help unloading/moving it. Currently its sitting on the base shelf of > > a 3' high 19" rack with casters so I can move the thing about. > > > > Mine has a Pertec interface. I picked it up from a local seller for > > $0.99 on ebay. - > > Got you beat by $0.99. Show off! :-) I think the guy would have given it away if he thought anyone would be interested and just listed it on ebay as something easier than figuring out how to scrap/trash the thing. > Sometimes you get lucky. I consider my $0.99 haul lucky :-). Is yours the pertec interface? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 6 00:55:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 22:55:59 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DC32AFF.28944.323FBA4@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 23:14, Richard wrote: > I consider my $0.99 haul lucky :-). Is yours the pertec interface? Yup. I know that there was supposedly a SCSI interface card for these, but I've never seen one for real. I think the bulk of these things are mostly due to Sun installations and, AFAIK, they used only the Pertec interface. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 6 01:21:20 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 May 2011 23:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 May 2011, Richard wrote: > In article <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A at cclist.sydex.com>, > "Chuck Guzis" writes: > >> On 5 May 2011 at 21:23, Richard wrote: >> >>> I believe I have this same drive. Its damned heavy. IIRC, I used a >>> ramp and a winch strap to inch it into the back of my car and then had >>> help unloading/moving it. Currently its sitting on the base shelf of >>> a 3' high 19" rack with casters so I can move the thing about. >>> >>> Mine has a Pertec interface. I picked it up from a local seller for >>> $0.99 on ebay. - >> >> Got you beat by $0.99. > > Show off! :-) > > I think the guy would have given it away if he thought anyone would be > interested and just listed it on ebay as something easier than > figuring out how to scrap/trash the thing. > >> Sometimes you get lucky. > > I consider my $0.99 haul lucky :-). Is yours the pertec interface? My story is that I scored a couple IMSAIs and Altairs with the catch that I had to take most of the contents of the shed. I'm still selling off that stuff. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 6 01:32:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 May 2011 23:32:36 -0700 Subject: Apple ][ RF Spray Coating In-Reply-To: <20110506012843.GI1011@n0jcf.net> References: <4DC2EE3A.2060605@jetnet.ab.ca>, <4DC30156.3050206@atarimuseum.com>, <20110506012843.GI1011@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DC33394.29863.34583DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 May 2011 at 20:28, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Are you making a thing you are going to sell and needs FCC part 15 (or > other authority) compliance or are you trying to fix a one-off project > that is interfering with something? Good points. We did the zinc coating as the last step in getting VDE certification (tougher than Part 15). We'd already wrapped just about everything in sheet-metal shields with bonded (spot-welded) grounding braid,, but some RFI was escaping and the zinc spray took care of it. I've seen it on the inner sides of other cases as well, but I don't recall that it was the sole line of defense. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 6 09:17:06 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 08:17:06 -0600 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , David Griffith writes: > My story is that I scored a couple IMSAIs and Altairs with the catch that > I had to take most of the contents of the shed. I'm still selling off > that stuff. What else was in the shed? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 6 11:16:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 10:16:21 -0600 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) Message-ID: See item # 170637016956 Described as a "VAXstation 3", but I don't think that's the proper designation. Asking ~$250 I am in Salt Lake City and can pick these up for you if you want. I have no affiliation with the seller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 6 11:24:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 12:24:26 -0400 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC420BA.1080206@neurotica.com> On 5/6/11 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: > See item # 170637016956 > > Described as a "VAXstation 3", but I don't think that's the proper > designation. That could very well be a VAXstation-3. If it was sold as a VAXstation-II and upgraded with a KA650 CPU and MS650 memory module(s), that'd be an appropriate designation. In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World Box", which have dried up significantly on the market in the past couple of years and are becoming much harder to find than they had been. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fsmith at ladylinux.com Fri May 6 12:11:26 2011 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran Smith) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 13:11:26 -0400 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) Message-ID: <4DC42BBE.8080003@ladylinux.com> Hiya, > That could very well be a VAXstation-3. If it was sold as a > VAXstation-II and upgraded with a KA650 CPU and MS650 memory module(s), > that'd be an appropriate designation. I had one just like this back in the day with full graphics , mouse etc that I used as a workstation. I upgraded it from MV-11 to MV-III in box with the above kit. Nice versatile units and I hope they go somewhere they can be used. Fran From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 6 14:38:59 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 12:38:59 -0700 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: <4DC420BA.1080206@neurotica.com> References: <4DC420BA.1080206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 12:24 PM -0400 5/6/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 5/6/11 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: >>See item # 170637016956 >> >>Described as a "VAXstation 3", but I don't think that's the proper >>designation. > > That could very well be a VAXstation-3. If it was sold as a >VAXstation-II and upgraded with a KA650 CPU and MS650 memory >module(s), that'd be an appropriate designation. > > In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World >Box", which have dried up significantly on the market in the past >couple of years and are becoming much harder to find than they had >been. I have a MicroVAX III, nice system. What might be interesting to know is what it has for a disk subsystem. If they upgraded the CPU's and RAM, did the also upgrade the hard drives to something other than MFM? In any case I'd say $250 for a KA650 system in a BA123 is well worth the cost, at least it is if you're local. I wouldn't want to have to pay shipping on it! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From pontus at update.uu.se Fri May 6 15:34:20 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 22:34:20 +0200 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: <4DC420BA.1080206@neurotica.com> References: <4DC420BA.1080206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DC45B4C.6070803@update.uu.se> 2011-05-06 18:24, Dave McGuire skrev: > > In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World > Box", which have dried up significantly on the market in the past > couple of years and are becoming much harder to find than they had been. > It is definitely on the want list :) If anyone local to me (sweden that is) has anything in a BA123 I wouldn't mind driving a bit and pay a bit for it. I've seen two in Sweden, on with GPX Regards, Pontus. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 6 19:13:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 17:13:26 -0700 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear In-Reply-To: References: , <4DC30600.21853.2937A0C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DC31DF8.11330.2F11B1A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DC48EA6.1040902@bitsavers.org> On 5/5/11 11:21 PM, David Griffith wrote: > My story is that I scored a couple IMSAIs and Altairs with the catch that I had to take most of the contents of the shed. I'm still selling off that stuff. > And a good lot of stuff you got there, too. It would be nice to see if Morrow MICRONIX is in there somewhere. re. Fujitsu tape drive If someone wants one in the Bay Area, I have a complete unit I'm about to scrap. From jonas at otter.se Fri May 6 13:09:02 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 20:09:02 +0200 Subject: rack mounting vintage gear Message-ID: <4DC4393E.3010304@otter.se> > > What exaclty is an "anti-tip feature"? > Most racks have a pull out stabilizer of some kind, or even jutting out little "feet" to prevent them> from tipping over forwards while you pull heavy things out on the rails. So, in order to pull out a > device, first you pull out the anti-tip bar at the bottom, then pull out the device. The DEC H960 > racks don't have that pull-out bar, instead they have two feet that stick out the front of the > cabinet a foot or so, and serve to trip people walking too close to the computer... > > -Ian You can see an anti-tip bar here:http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/3789164168/ If you look at the bottom of the rightmost TU80 you can see a silvery T-shaped thing with a foot on it. That is the anti-tip bar. /Jonas From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 04:04:40 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:04:40 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor Message-ID: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder wick (braid?). I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly with the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any solder not matter what I do. One of the pins, however, goes onto a track that is more like a large area of metal and the iron does not even seem to melt the solder there. The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one pin at the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder left holding each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the pump or wick. So it seems to me that you would need to have the solder in all 3 pin holes molten, all at the same time, to be able to lift the component. What is the trick? Or is it just that my soldering iron is not good (powerful) enough? Thanks Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 7 04:40:55 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 10:40:55 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DC513A7.3000405@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not > experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble > desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks > in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap > Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one > of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder > wick (braid?). You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do need a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've found the holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend to be a close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when you get all the solder out. I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do so quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the longer you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to damage something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes adding fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first attempt removes most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh solder helps remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to side to break the last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad across the gap to the pin -- if you can! I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow tip for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, either -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From oe5ewl at gmail.com Sat May 7 06:53:23 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 13:53:23 +0200 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: <4DC45B4C.6070803@update.uu.se> References: <4DC420BA.1080206@neurotica.com> <4DC45B4C.6070803@update.uu.se> Message-ID: same here for austria. regards, wolfgang ps: can pick up and store too, if someone needs this. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/5/6 Pontus : > 2011-05-06 18:24, Dave McGuire skrev: >> >> ?In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World Box", >> which have dried up significantly on the market in the past couple of years >> and are becoming much harder to find than they had been. >> > > It is definitely on the want list :) If anyone local to me (sweden that is) > has anything in a BA123 I wouldn't mind driving a bit and pay a bit for it. > > I've seen two in Sweden, on with GPX > > Regards, > Pontus. > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 7 08:26:01 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 06:26:01 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <4DC513A7.3000405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com>, <4DC513A7.3000405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:40:55 +0100 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > > On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so > > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not > > experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble > > desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks > > in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap > > Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one > > of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder > > wick (braid?). > > You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do need > a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've found the > holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend to be a > close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when you get all > the solder out. > > I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those > trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything > else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do so > quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the longer > you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to damage > something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes adding > fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first attempt removes > most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh solder helps > remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to side to break the > last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad across the gap to the > pin -- if you can! Hi I thought I'd mention that you always need to refill with solder if it misses getting it all out. Try heating both sides with two irons( tough with only two hands but I've gotten good with holding the pump and iron at one side with just the one hand. You need something to clamp the board. Also, when first melting the solder, make sure the pin is free and centered in the hole. I push the lead around with the iron and solder melted until it feels right( it is a feel thing ). It seems that no matter how well it is cleared, some small bridge seems to be there. Often this can be easily broken loose with a little pressure from a small screwdriver. If that doesn't work, I put the iron on the lead with sideways pressure. Just as the lead pops, I remove the iron. The idea is to heat it just enough to make the solder start to soften but not so much as to melt it all and attach the lead someplace else. If this fails, I refill the hole with solder and try to adjust the lead again, while hot, to center it in the hole. As a last resort, I go to a friend house that manufactures burn-in boards. He has a solder pot. It is full and I just set the board on the brim of solder. I then just pull the part out. Do remember through all this, do not put pressure on the traces with the iron. Use a clean iron well tinned iron. You can't clear a partially cleared hole, you need to refill it and try again. Use bottled flux if you can get some, it helps to keep the solder surfaces fresh. Also, although many like solder wick, I'd done more damage with it then I'd like. I now only use the pump( not the small one with the yellow lever on the side. It is junk.The larger the better ). Dwight > > I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow tip > for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, either > -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat May 7 08:40:12 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:40:12 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: A few points 1. If the device is dead, or cheap, just cut it off above the board, the board is rare/delicate the device commodity and replaceable, then each leg can be got out above board, even the solder sucking process can do this for you. least board heating 2. after sucking all three, I try to jiggle each lead to check its free/break any small amount of solder left, hole has to be reasonable clear 3. with a large iron add solder to get a blob on all three, pull device out and then suck holes after 4. similar to above but rapid sliding of iron over the pins to get all melted, then pull device 5. back in the old days there were iron tips around for multi pin melting, I never found them to be too good braid never worked that well for me Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 7 10:33:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 08:33:01 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DC503BD.29324.2A3F5E@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 May 2011 at 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one > pin at the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder > left holding each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the > pump or wick. So it seems to me that you would need to have the > solder in all 3 pin holes molten, all at the same time, to be able to > lift the component. > > What is the trick? Or is it just that my soldering iron is not good > (powerful) enough? If you're going to do much repair of PCBs, a temperature-controlled iron is pretty important. I use my venerable Weller TCP iron--a time- proven design that's still in production after, what, a half-century? However, there are less-expensive imported options. A clean and well-tinned iron is vital to this kind of work. If your iron isn't tinned, the molten solder can't conduct heat to the joint and you end up spending too much time trying to get a joint to melt. If you're using a solder pump, make sure it's the big one; the little ones don't seem to be worth much. It often helps to add solder to a joint before you use the pump to suck the solder out. Once you've sucked the solder out of a joint (you should be able to see daylight through the joint), wiggle the component gently to break the bond between the lead and the PCB trace formed by any remaining solder film and it should pop right out. Others have suggested cutting the component body off the leads to reduce heat conduction away from the joint being worked on--and that's a very good suggestion. If you still don't trust yourself, you may want to look into a low- temperature solution, such as Chip-Quick, which is basically a low- temperature fusible alloy that takes solder into solution. It's quite valuable duing SMT rework (I have yet to damage a PCB using it to replace surface mount ICs), but it might also work with traditional through-hole devices. http://www.chipquikinc.com/index.htm I've got lots of desoldering braid, but I tend to use it for soldering SMT packages, rather than desoldering them. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 7 12:01:54 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:01:54 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1@cs.ubc.ca> > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my > PDP11 so > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. As you are just trying to isolate the device for testing, sometimes it is easier to open the circuits elsewhere to achieve the isolation. For example, if the collector goes to an offboard transformer through a connector, then that lead is easily isolated; the base is probably fed by a resistor and lifting one lead of the resistor will isolate the base. With 2 of the 3 connections to the transistor open, it is isolated for testing purposes. TO-220 packages (3 leads with tab) can be very difficult to remove in one piece when - as Pete was mentioning - the holes are to small. Some manufacturers fail to increase the drill size for the wider TO-220 pins, they can be very tight with no room to wiggle the lead to break the final solder bridge. Sometimes slightly twisting the lead might do it. Sometimes you have to rock the device up and out of the holes with several heating cycles. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat May 7 12:58:36 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:58:36 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <039201cc0ce0$651033b0$2f309b10$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 07 May 2011 18:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my > > PDP11 so > > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. > > As you are just trying to isolate the device for testing, sometimes it is easier to > open the circuits elsewhere to achieve the isolation. For example, if the > collector goes to an offboard transformer through a connector, then that lead > is easily isolated; the base is probably fed by a resistor and lifting one lead of > the resistor will isolate the base. With 2 of the 3 connections to the transistor > open, it is isolated for testing purposes. > > TO-220 packages (3 leads with tab) can be very difficult to remove in one > piece when - as Pete was mentioning - the holes are to small. Some > manufacturers fail to increase the drill size for the wider TO-220 pins, they > can be very tight with no room to wiggle the lead to break the final solder > bridge. Sometimes slightly twisting the lead might do it. Sometimes you have > to rock the device up and out of the holes with several heating cycles. It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. After sending my request I had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. The contacts look to be intact and even if they are not I will be able to use wires to reconnect the transistor pins. Thanks Rob From arcarlini at iee.org Sat May 7 13:44:02 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:44:02 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <8730C5A328D94EE69B0E446A537D6F12@ANTONIOPC> I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already lifted a track. I'd stop now and practise on something that doesn't matter. Removing something like a 4 pin molex power connector from a dead (recent:-)) hard drive or similar is probably the sort of difficulty you want? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From jws at jwsss.com Sat May 7 14:28:02 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 12:28:02 -0700 Subject: "Original" IBM PC Message-ID: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> I'll take half what they are asking for all of my Pee Cees 250814364633 and it comes with 6" floppy drives. Phil? Disk Ferret material? Jim From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 7 14:53:39 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 12:53:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> References: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2011, jim s wrote: > I'll take half what they are asking for all of my Pee Cees > > 250814364633 > > and it comes with 6" floppy drives. Phil? Disk Ferret material? > Make it a third and you've got a deal. I'll even throw in a 3-5/8" floppy disk. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat May 7 15:02:27 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 15:02:27 -0500 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> References: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 2:28 PM, jim s wrote: > I'll take half what they are asking for all of my Pee Cees > > 250814364633 > > and it comes with 6" floppy drives. ?Phil? ?Disk Ferret material? > > Jim What's wrong with people? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 13:43:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:43:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 7, 11 10:04:40 am Message-ID: > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not > experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble > desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks > in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap > Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one You should be able to do it with those tools. Personally, though, I do prefer a temperature-controlled soldering iron. YOu can have problems with being unable to transfer enough heat to the joint to melt the solder, particularly if it's soldered to a ground pane or similar. I know when I tired to used a friend's 25W cheap iron some years ago, I ended up going home to collect my Weller TCP. I simply could not get the IC's out with the cheap one. WIth the TCP, it took a few minutes. > of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder > wick (braid?). > > I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly with > the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any solder not Thats what I tend to find too. I much prefer the solder sucker (pump). A couple of hints on using the solder sucker. Take it apart and put a smear of vaseline on the piston washer (and on the O-ring for the front. This will improve the suction no end. Use a fine/new tip., it's easier to get it onto the joint Melt a little new solder onto the joint (as if you were soldering, not deseoldering). In other words, tin the soldering iron bit, put it on the joint, and feed in a little more sodler. Wait a couple of seconds, then apply the solder sucher and suck. If the connectiuon doesn't clear the first time, it's a waste of time to try using the sucker again. Instead, resolder the connection, then try sucking again. > matter what I do. One of the pins, however, goes onto a track that is more > like a large area of metal and the iron does not even seem to melt the > solder there. In which case your soldering iron is not big enough for the job.... Seen that too many times... > > The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one pin at > the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder left holding Actually, I have had joints come completelyt clear, but it's not common. However, the 'whisker' of solder is not strong, and generally wobbling the pin around with pliers or the end of a screwderiver will break the bond. Of course if you can get 2 of the pins completely free, you cna melt the solder on the remaining one and yank the component out while the iron is still on that joint. Then clean out the solder later. > each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the pump or wick. So > it seems to me that you would need to have the solder in all 3 pin holes > molten, all at the same time, to be able to lift the component. It's even more fun when you want to remove a 40 Pin DIL pacakge :-). More serieosuly, there are/were special soldeirng iron bits to fit the common lead arrangements of multi-pin compoonets so you could melt the solder on all joints simulataneously. I've never found they work that well. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 15:10:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:10:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <039201cc0ce0$651033b0$2f309b10$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 7, 11 06:58:36 pm Message-ID: > > It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. After sending my request I > had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it > for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. Not generally as good idea! These PCBs have plated through holes, meaning there is a metal layer o nthe insisde of the hole which connects traces on both sides. If you drill out the hole you will damage this plating. On a double-sided board you then have to solder the component leads to the traces on both sides. On multilayer boards you have a long day ahead of yuu. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sat May 7 15:13:48 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:13:48 +0100 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > What's wrong with people? You want a list :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 7 15:22:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:22:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <8730C5A328D94EE69B0E446A537D6F12@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at May 7, 11 07:44:02 pm Message-ID: > > I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from > somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. I owuld agree. The only way to learn to solder (as with so many things) is to practice. Does the fact that modern PCBs are soldered with that lead-free muck make any difference? I suspect it'as actually harder to desolder such boards (as the lead-free solder melts at a higher temperature than the leaded stuff) so if you can manage those you'll have very few problems with the PDP11 boards However, most modern PCbs have a lot of SMD parts (surface mounted, no wires/pins through holes in the PCB) which are rather different to work with. You want to conentrate on through-hole parts at lest for the moment. > > You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already > lifted a track. Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat May 7 15:59:36 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 16:59:36 -0400 Subject: IBM 3480 help Message-ID: <201105071659.37382.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not particularly helpful yet. The code the drive displays, immediately after start-up is "CHK 38". Pat -- Patrick Finnegan From IanK at vulcan.com Sat May 7 16:33:26 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:33:26 -0700 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> References: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! "...or 5.25" as they are sometimes called." You mean, by everyone else on the planet, even in metric-based countries? "This computer has been in my family for generations. I inherited the computer from my grandfather and my uncle originally purchased it...." Generations? The machine was introduced in 1981.... Whatever this guy's smoking, it's pretty serious stuff. Maybe *that's* worth $65K, for viable cuttings - not that I would know anything about that sort of thing, really -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 12:28 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: "Original" IBM PC I'll take half what they are asking for all of my Pee Cees 250814364633 and it comes with 6" floppy drives. Phil? Disk Ferret material? Jim From vintagecoder at aol.com Sat May 7 16:51:31 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:51:31 +0000 Subject: IBM 3480 help Message-ID: <201105072151.p47LpZOo009529@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> > I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and > was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for > the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not particularly > helpful yet. > > The code the drive displays, immediately after start-up is "CHK 38". > > Pat That's out of my area but a quick check of the 3490 manuals I could find (couldn't find any relevant 3480 doc) does not look good. It says this is a "call your service rep" type of error- the CHK XX codes are apparently undocumented, at least for 3490s. If you can't find a 3480 guide on bitsavers (I just checked and couldn't find one) then this may or may not be worthwhile: http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/COMP/fcpa/tapes/m2488ce_prod-guide.pdf The only reason I suggest it is Fujitsu has some history of ripping off IBM (they did it with several OS versions and paid over 800 million USD in a settlement) and compatible-hardware manufacturers often try to keep the same error codes to make pubs easier (also by ripping off IBM), so maybe just maybe they are using the same codes as the 3480/90 tape subsystem. See appendix E. for the code listings. Nice piece of hardware btw. IBM's marketing materials say "The A22 control unit is priced at $65,430, and the B22 tape unit, which contains two tape drives, sells for $43,120." Good luck and post back if you find anything. If you don't get any answers from the list or elsewhere (some good places to ask are on IBM-MAIN (you will need to subscribe or nobody will see your posts) and the yahoo hercules groups) email me offline and I'll see if I can find anything. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online Com ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, books, and related doc, | | software and doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390. | | | | Wanted: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA and Solaris (Sparc). | | | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 7 17:10:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 15:10:13 -0700 Subject: IBM 3480 help In-Reply-To: <201105071659.37382.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201105071659.37382.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4DC5C345.2090008@bitsavers.org> On 5/7/11 1:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and > was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for > the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not > particularly helpful yet. > There are about 8 books in the maint set, I'll see about getting them on line. It was also sold as the DEC TA90/E. I have a couple of volumes up under dec/magtape/ta90 From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 7 17:27:13 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 15:27:13 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <8730C5A328D94EE69B0E446A537D6F12@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: On 5/7/11 11:44 AM, "arcarlini at iee.org" wrote: > I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from > somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. > > You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already > lifted a track. > > I'd stop now and practise on something that doesn't matter. Removing > something like > a 4 pin molex power connector from a dead (recent:-)) hard drive or > similar is > probably the sort of difficulty you want? > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org I'd second that.. And use a good de-soldering tool. I use a Hakko 808 desoldering gun. My hot air rework station has an option for a desoldering attachment but the gun is serving me well. Just change the flux filter regularly and clean it out well. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat May 7 17:31:11 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:31:11 +1200 Subject: "Original" IBM PC References: <4DC59D42.1070108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <7AA8AE41411E4906A5DC52AEE4A0B60E@massey.ac.nz> Staggering! I'd better hang onto mine then. Could be a good retirement investment (-: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 9:33 AM Subject: RE: "Original" IBM PC HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! "...or 5.25" as they are sometimes called." You mean, by everyone else on the planet, even in metric-based countries? "This computer has been in my family for generations. I inherited the computer from my grandfather and my uncle originally purchased it...." Generations? The machine was introduced in 1981.... Whatever this guy's smoking, it's pretty serious stuff. Maybe *that's* worth $65K, for viable cuttings - not that I would know anything about that sort of thing, really -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s [jws at jwsss.com] Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 12:28 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: "Original" IBM PC I'll take half what they are asking for all of my Pee Cees 250814364633 and it comes with 6" floppy drives. Phil? Disk Ferret material? Jim From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 7 17:47:58 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 15:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 7 May 2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >> What's wrong with people? > > You want a list :-) Please wait for Petabyte drives to come out. It'll keep costs down. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 7 18:29:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 16:29:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110507162821.X71615@shell.lmi.net> > >> What's wrong with people? > On Sat, 7 May 2011, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > You want a list :-) On Sat, 7 May 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Please wait for Petabyte drives to come out. It'll keep costs down. The growth of THAT list surpasses Moore's law. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 7 18:55:54 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 00:55:54 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <039201cc0ce0$651033b0$2f309b10$@ntlworld.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1@cs.ubc.ca> <039201cc0ce0$651033b0$2f309b10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DC5DC0A.9020207@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/05/2011 18:58, Rob Jarratt wrote: > It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. Ah, that ought to be doable with a 40W iron. When I described using my 100W Weller, I was thinking of bigger stuff with metal cans! > After sending my request I > had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it > for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. I hope those holes weren't plated-through ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 7 19:57:32 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 17:57:32 -0700 Subject: Way out there Ebay auctions (was "Original" IBM PC) In-Reply-To: <20110507162821.X71615@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Looking at the vintage computing on ebay, there's someone with 15 Ppro chips "for gold recovery" and it's been bid up to $390. I am fairly sure that the amount of gold in a Ppro chip is not worth that much, plus the cost of extracting it is pretty high.... From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Sat May 7 20:09:05 2011 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:09:05 -0700 Subject: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) Message-ID: Hello to the cctalk list after a long absence! My wife and I own a small business specializing in vintage computers and electronics, especially 1980s microcomputers and game consoles. We?re in the process of moving from Bloomington, Indiana, out to California, and as part of that move, all of our inventory has to go! Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell everything as a single bulk lot. If you?re a fan of the technology or looking to start your own related business, this is a chance to acquire a mother lode of great old stuff. There are some real treasures included -- we hope that you?ll be able to give these computers a good home. Included are almost 100 systems (Apple, Atari, Commodore, TI, Sinclair, and more); thousands of disks, tapes, and cartridges; over a thousand books and magazines; electronics test equipment; and more. The complete list of stuff is available at http://bit.ly/izaYpw ( https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1JS2fRLSfeOoI27Otf-Zhkl1f84WNZQHwM-jNBkhvvkM ) I can be contacted by email at squunkin at gmail.com, or leave a message on our Google Voice number at (408) 676-6467and I?ll get back to you. (Serious offers only, please -- and feel free to pass the word along to any interested friends!) The sale will go to the best offer from the most reasonable person as quickly as we can manage it. Here are the basic terms and conditions: - We must sell as a single lot and cannot split off individual items. This is not negotiable -- I?m in California, and the inventory is stored in Indiana. (Obviously, we can?t handle returns either.) - This is a LOT of stuff; you will certainly need a U-Haul track or the like. (I?m not a pro at this, but I?d estimate a 20? truck.) - Once the sale has been arranged, I?ll make a trip back to Indiana to help you load up your truck: you?re not on your own. This makes it very important to me to establish a firm pick-up date. I can be flexible about the day of the week. - We cannot guarantee the condition of individual items and must sell as-is: most of this stuff is at least 20 years old. We have always tried to test new equipment as it arrives, and most of the media have been kept in a controlled environment. - Southern Indiana is humid and subject to flooding, and there is a chance that some items may have some moisture damage. If we discover in the process of loading that any items of particular interest to you are damaged, we can adjust the final sale price accordingly. Please let us know about those items in advance! - The list of items we?ve compiled is not exhaustive, but represents a large sample from our inventory database. There?s more. - We currently have around 3-4 dozen WYSE and Falco terminals available, most of which power on. Please let us know ASAP if you want them included -- otherwise, they?ll be heading to recycling on May 14th. - If you have any questions, please ask! I will try to respond to every enquiry with 24 hours. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 7 22:55:27 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:55:27 -0400 Subject: Way out there Ebay auctions (was "Original" IBM PC) In-Reply-To: References: <20110507162821.X71615@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: What part of $1500/oz do you not understand? -- Will On May 7, 2011 5:58 PM, "Geoffrey Reed" wrote: Looking at the vintage computing on ebay, there's someone with 15 Ppro chips "for gold recovery" and it's been bid up to $390. I am fairly sure that the amount of gold in a Ppro chip is not worth that much, plus the cost of extracting it is pretty high.... From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 7 23:06:52 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 22:06:52 -0600 Subject: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mark Meiss writes: > Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell > everything as a single bulk lot. Good luck with that. Pretty much everything listed there is obtainable incrementally and few people are interested in buying huge lots of things when they could obtain them incrementally. I understand its what's easiest for you, but given the economy its probably better to cater to the buyer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Sat May 7 23:33:26 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 23:33:26 -0500 Subject: Way out there Ebay auctions (was "Original" IBM PC) In-Reply-To: References: <20110507162821.X71615@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201105080433.p484Xmhn068932@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:55 PM 5/7/2011, William Donzelli wrote: >What part of $1500/oz do you not understand? Yes, this list had this discussion last November. Since then, I mismantled the two quad PPro servers I had. I'm tempted to keep one for fun and sell the others, but there's a part of me that has low trust for a fanatic gold buyer on eBay. - John From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 7 23:58:45 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 21:58:45 -0700 Subject: Way out there Ebay auctions (was "Original" IBM PC) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/7/11 8:55 PM, "William Donzelli" wrote: > What part of $1500/oz do you not understand? > > -- > Will > > On May 7, 2011 5:58 PM, "Geoffrey Reed" wrote: > > Looking at the vintage computing on ebay, there's someone with 15 Ppro chips > "for gold recovery" and it's been bid up to $390. I am fairly sure that > the amount of gold in a Ppro chip is not worth that much, plus the cost of > extracting it is pretty high.... Unless I am mistaken, the plating on the lid is only a couple microns thick. And while the chips themselves weigh in at 6.8 ish ounces each, only a small portion of that is metals, the bulk of the weight is ceramic material. I tried to find current data on how much gold is contained in ppro chips, but all I was able to find were links to pay "make a fortune in gold recovery" e-books.... 1 ounce = 28.3495231 grams Since it it precious metal weight we are discussing here.... 1 troy ounce = 31.1034768 grams Ah, finally a hit or two.... It looks like Ppro chips have .5 to .75 grams of gold per chip. So to get 1 ounce of gold you would need roughly 62 chips (.75 grams was for processing at an actual lab, not in a home setting), and that is assuming that you are able to extract the minimum and that you can get pure gold as an end product without serious lab equipment.... So assuming one were to be able to process pure gold out of those chips, $390 is pretty much the break even point where you spent as much on the chips as you are going to get out of them from processing (and that isn't even taking into account the time spent on extracting, and the cost of the chemicals and equipment used in processing the chips.) Having torn one of them apart years ago when it burned out, I can tell you that the wires running through the ceramic are not gold. And the sites I've found information on mention palladium and other metals in the ceramic. From chaosotter76 at gmail.com Sun May 8 01:51:17 2011 From: chaosotter76 at gmail.com (Mark Meiss) Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:51:17 -0700 Subject: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, yes, I imagine that few people are, but we're hoping for exactly one, and here seems likelier a place than most. (Not to mention that Bloomington isn't so far from Dayton, and the Hamvention is coming right up in a few weeks.) We're not looking for top dollar (the move is a good move), but a chance to try to transfer these things en masse to somebody with an understanding of what they are -- hence the desire to avoid eBay if possible. On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Mark Meiss writes: > > > Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell > > everything as a single bulk lot. > > Good luck with that. > > Pretty much everything listed there is obtainable incrementally and > few people are interested in buying huge lots of things when they > could obtain them incrementally. > > I understand its what's easiest for you, but given the economy its > probably better to cater to the buyer. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 8 04:47:47 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:47:47 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <865E15B734024AA98E807E829C8F7704@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have > to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) I've lifted my fair share of tracks (possibly more, just natural greed I guess). Once or twice I've had to put down wire to make up for my clumsiness, although mostly I've lifted tracks on scrap that I don't care about (I just wanted whatever component it might have been). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Sun May 8 04:49:03 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:49:03 +0100 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Ian King [IanK at vulcan.com] wrote: > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > "...or 5.25" as they are sometimes called." You mean, by > everyone else on the planet, even in metric-based countries? > "This computer has been in my family for generations. I > inherited the computer from my grandfather and my uncle > originally purchased it...." Generations? The machine was > introduced in 1981.... For $65k surely you'd get more than the promise that maybe some peanuts might be included? You'd have to be very brave (and rich) to bid on this one. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 8 04:57:39 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:57:39 +0100 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <865E15B734024AA98E807E829C8F7704@ANTONIOPC> References: <865E15B734024AA98E807E829C8F7704@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <03ed01cc0d66$5f623a40$1e26aec0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 08 May 2011 10:48 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have > > to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) > > I've lifted my fair share of tracks (possibly more, just natural greed I guess). > > Once or twice I've had to put down wire to make up for my clumsiness, > although mostly I've lifted tracks on scrap that I don't care about (I just wanted > whatever component it might have been). > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it is a little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break in the track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, but I don't recall that happening, and the break seems too wide for the size of bit I was using. Is it possible there might have been a latent track defect that the heat from the iron revealed? Regards Rob From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 8 07:05:54 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 08:05:54 -0400 Subject: S-100 EPROM boards are here! Message-ID: <6B4661ED29914CC8B690BC223940C2F3@andrewdesktop> Hi! The S-100 EPROM PCBs have arrived! These are updated respins of the S-100 EPROM board from last summer with minor corrections and improvements. The S-100 EPROM board supports a wide variety of EPROMs, EEPROMs, FLASH memories, and Static RAMs in 8 or 16 bit modes. It supports many common 28 pin and 32 pin chips. More information is available at John's S100computers.com website here: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm The board is $20 plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! There are plenty of PCBs so even if you weren't on the waiting list there should be plenty to go around. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I have some S-100 4MB SRAM boards, S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard interface boards, and S-100 Serial IO boards left too in case you'd like to get some of those and save on shipping. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun May 8 09:08:03 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:08:03 -0400 Subject: Way out there Ebay auctions (was "Original" IBM PC) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201105081008.03467.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, May 08, 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > So assuming one were to be able to process pure gold out of those > chips, $390 is pretty much the break even point where you spent as > much on the chips as you are going to get out of them from > processing (and that isn't even taking into account the time spent > on extracting, and the cost of the chemicals and equipment used in > processing the chips.) In quantity, the recycler I have charges $1/lb, with a 500lb minimum charge. It's cheap when you do it in bulk. Still, I don't think I'd be buying stuff to scrap unless I could make a decent profit off of it (say, equal to at least half of the sale price). Doing gold scrapping, with all of the labor involved (especially in something like the IBM Es/9000 that was auction), I'd want to make more money than it looks like ebay scrappers are doing. > Having torn one of them apart years ago when it burned out, I can > tell you that the wires running through the ceramic are not gold. > And the sites I've found information on mention palladium and other > metals in the ceramic. Keep in mind that you can get money for more than just gold. The place I use pays you for the copper, silver, gold, platinum, and palladium that they extract. Pat -- Patrick Finnegan From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 8 11:37:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 09:37:15 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <03ed01cc0d66$5f623a40$1e26aec0$@ntlworld.com> References: , <865E15B734024AA98E807E829C8F7704@ANTONIOPC>, <03ed01cc0d66$5f623a40$1e26aec0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DC6644B.215.F1880@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2011 at 10:57, Rob Jarratt wrote: > And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track > damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it > is a little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break > in the track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, > but I don't recall that happening, and the break seems too wide for > the size of bit I was using. Is it possible there might have been a > latent track defect that the heat from the iron revealed? Take a close look at the gap. It's not unusual to see board revisions done this way--just a bit of tape on the master negatives to do a cut in a trace. If the edges of the break look smooth and straight under magnification, you most likely have your answer. Do not attempt to bridge gaps such as this! --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 12:46:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:46:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 7, 11 02:33:26 pm Message-ID: > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > "...or 5.25" as they are sometimes called." You mean, by everyone else on = Indeed... I did wonder if the 5.25" refered to the diameter of the magneitc disk and that the square envelope was larger. However, I have just measured a 5.25" floppy disk with a ruler and the enveleope is 5.25" in each direction... So what 6" refers to is beyond me. (OK, you can call me cluelrdd for not knowing the size of the minifloppy disk, but at least I measurted it rather than making some silly comment...) > the planet, even in metric-based countries? "This computer has been in my = > family for generations. I inherited the computer from my grandfather and my= > uncle originally purchased it...." Generations? The machine was introduc= > ed in 1981....=20 > > Whatever this guy's smoking, it's pretty serious stuff. Maybe *that's* wor= > th $65K, for viable cuttings - not that I would know anything about that so= > rt of thing, really -- Ian =20 Not that I am going to bid on it, but I wonder just how 'original' this is... To me an origianl IBM PC implies a 16K-64K motherboard. And a 63W power supply I would also claim that the expansio cards were origianl IBM ones. I wouldn't object to _ectras_ being third-party, but there should be enough IBM boards, of the types produced when the machine was made, to have a working system (that is, video card and floppy controller at least). But if, for exmaple, an MDA card has been rpelaced at some point by a Hercules card and the originial IBM MDA card is not included with the machine then that is not 'original'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 8 13:01:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:01:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <03ed01cc0d66$5f623a40$1e26aec0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 8, 11 10:57:39 am Message-ID: > And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track Oh you will :-). I'll admit ot having lifted my fair share of tracks too. And damaged the odd bit of through-plating. > damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it is a > little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break in the > track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, but I don't You won;t normally break a track by just letting the iron rub across it. Are you sure this track break is not deliberate? Have you checked the components connected to each side of it and made sure they should be connected accordign to the schematics? -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 8 14:43:59 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 12:43:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Message-ID: Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun May 8 15:02:24 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: > > Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was > wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said > processors. I'm pretty certain there used to be one. Osprey, IIRC, built around a J-11. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 8 17:00:11 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:00:11 -0400 Subject: Way out there Ebay auctions (was "Original" IBM PC) In-Reply-To: <201105080433.p484Xmhn068932@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <20110507162821.X71615@shell.lmi.net> <201105080433.p484Xmhn068932@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: Yes, we have this discussion in the distant and recent past, with people that have expertise in the field, but it just does not seem to sink in. -- Will On May 7, 2011 9:37 PM, "John Foust" wrote: At 10:55 PM 5/7/2011, William Donzelli wrote: >What part of $1500/oz do you not understand? Yes, this list had this discussion last November. Since then, I mismantled the two quad PPro servers I had. I'm tempted to keep one for fun and sell the others, but there's a part of me that has low trust for a fanatic gold buyer on eBay. - John From pinball at telus.net Sat May 7 11:14:25 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 09:14:25 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <4DC513A7.3000405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> <4DC513A7.3000405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DC56FE1.8010300@telus.net> Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my >> PDP11 so >> that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I >> am not >> experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of >> trouble >> desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB >> tracks >> in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap >> Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I >> have one >> of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder >> wick (braid?). > > You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do > need a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've > found the holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend > to be a close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when > you get all the solder out. > > I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those > trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything > else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do > so quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the > longer you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to > damage something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes > adding fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first > attempt removes most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh > solder helps remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to > side to break the last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad > across the gap to the pin -- if you can! > > I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow > tip for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, > either -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. > Also, once you have most of the solder removed from the feed through hole then you can push on the leg of the device with a small screwdriver (or the like) to try to release it from the side of the hole. Most device legs go in the hole on an angle, thus there is a tiny film of solder holding the leg to the side of the hole - sometimes on both the top and the bottom of the hole. You will feel or hear a tiny 'click' as the leg releases. Looks like this (somewhat crappy ASCII sketch) \ |\ | <--- Top of feed through hole | \ | | \ | | \| <--- Bottom of feed through hole \ <--- Leg of device So you are trying to break the top and bottom points by pushing the leg away from the side of the hole it is soldered to. If done correctly the device will then be easy to remove with only finger force - no prying with the screwdriver! Hope that makes sense! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun May 8 17:54:38 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 18:54:38 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC71F2E.8010302@verizon.net> On 05/08/2011 03:43 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I > was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards > containing said processors. > Marineland I believe was the name of a company that put a T11 on a S100 card. Allison From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun May 8 18:29:43 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:29:43 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board Message-ID: <9E10495CD7824BA49B93AC7C29466C70@andrewdesktop> pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -----reply----- Hi Dave, In theory, I don't see anything preventing an S-100 PDP11 CPU board. The only practical concern is there would not be enough demand for the boards to make even small batches of manufactured PCBs economical. This has proven to be the limiting factor the hobbyist projects I've seen. At N8VEM and S100computers.com, we already have about 15 or so boards including an S-100 Z80 CPU board, with a second prototype board of an S-100 68K CPU board on the way, a third prototype board of an S-100 8086 CPU board imminent, and a first prototype board for an S-100 6502 CPU board soon. So certainly there are many CPUs which can be implemented on S-100 boards as bus masters. However, these are all fairly popular mainstream CPUs and are likely to have enough hobbyist interest to warrant at least a small run of manufactured PCBs. I doubt anyone knows for certain how much demand there would be for an exotic S-100 PDP11 CPU board however I'd be willing to support a community project along the lines of the vintage-computers.com XT-IDE, AT2XTKBD, SCSI to IDE/CF, and FM Synth efforts. My role is mostly the schematic capture, PCB layout, and getting the prototype boards made. I am assuming you or someone else would have the knowledge to make the schematic and perform the initial build and test debugging. I don't know much about PDP11 since it is outside my interest area. Using the S-100 bus has some advantages in that we already have a fairly complete suite of peripheral boards already such as RAM, ROM, floppy disk, hard disk, video, serial IO, RTC/PIC, etc. The project could focus solely on making the S-100 PDP11 CPU board a bus master much like the S-100 68K CPU board already in development and just reuse the rest of the boards "as is". This has made initial build and test of our S-100 8086 CPU board *dramatically* easier. By using the S-100 EPROM board, S-100 4MB SRAM board, S-100 Serial IO board, etc the S-100 8086 CPU board booted CP/M-86 almost right away. Very nice! A community project would start with a schematic and PCB layout which should be fairly straight forward to do. Next would be getting some prototype boards which would be typically $30 each if we went the www.33each.com route $150 for 5 PCBs. If a lot of builders wanted to participate we could get a batch of 10 from PCBcart.com for probably around $250 for 10 PCBs. However, as you probably know already the track record for community projects, especially at CCTALK, is pretty poor. Probably the best bet would be to take it elsewhere to improve the "signal to noise" ratio. I am aware of another S-100 hobbyist project that is working to make a multiple board custom 32 bit RISC CPU system. It is quite impressive in scope but well beyond my skill set. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 8 18:32:41 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 16:32:41 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC72819.8060801@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I > was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards > containing said processors. > The documentation is harder to get than the chips. I've got some of the chips, and even a data sheet (in Russian) for one of them, but the data sheet doesn't contain sufficient detail. A proper user manual for the parts existed, but I haven't been able to obtain a copy. On the other hand, I haven't been looking for the last few years, so perhaps one has turned up since. From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun May 8 19:20:06 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:20:06 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> On May 8, 2011, at 4:02 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. > > I'm pretty certain there used to be one. Osprey, IIRC, built around > a J-11. The Osprey was done by Strobe Data Inc. It's still produced I believe. The Osprey is an ISA or PCI product though. I have their Data General board set (Hawk board), it's pretty cool. Rob > -- > roger ivie > rivie at ridgenet.net > Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 8 19:25:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 20:25:33 -0400 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses Message-ID: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> I had a ham license (coded Tech class, KA2UZK) from 1984 to 1994, and was quite active on VHF FM and HF CW during that time. I've missed it quite a bit over the years and have always intended to relicense, but the piles of rules changes gave me pause, as rote memorization isn't really my strong suit. Well, the recent discussion of ham radio licensing motivated me to finally get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days to assimilate the new rules & regs, and registered for the VE test given at the hamfest in Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three exams...Element 2 (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and Element 4 (Extra class). I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time through! And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. The FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was granted an Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. Of I'm still in West Virginia handling family business, while all of my ham gear is in Florida, but my mother (who is house-sitting for me in Florida) was able to ship two of my HTs up here so I'd have something at least. When I have access to my HF gear (Yaesu FT-ONE and FT-920, Heath HW-7, HW-8, and HW-9 QRP rigs, and Heath SB-101) I hope to try out some of the neat new(ish) stuff like PSK31 that came up while I was away. High-tech stuff aside, I'm sure to do some plain old SSB and CW on the HF bands. Anyway, enough of my blather, I'm just proud to have accomplished that and wanted to tell everyone. I'm hoping to catch some of you on the air! -Dave 73's DE AK4HZ -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From db at db.net Sun May 8 19:37:47 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 20:37:47 -0400 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> References: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110509003747.GA55775@night.db.net> On Sun, May 08, 2011 at 08:25:33PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I had a ham license (coded Tech class, KA2UZK) from 1984 to 1994, and > was quite active on VHF FM and HF CW during that time. I've missed it ... congrats! If you are on irc #classiccmp on freenode, you are invited to #hamradio as well. > Anyway, enough of my blather, I'm just proud to have accomplished > that and wanted to tell everyone. I'm hoping to catch some of you on > the air! > > -Dave > 73's DE AK4HZ Yes that would be fun. 73 DE VA3DB Diane Bruce -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 8 21:28:22 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 22:28:22 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> >Robert Borsuk wrote: >>On May 8, 2011, at 4:02 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: > >>>On Sun, 8 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> >> >>>Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. >>> >>> >>I'm pretty certain there used to be one. Osprey, IIRC, built around >>a J-11. >> >> >The Osprey was done by Strobe Data Inc. It's still produced I believe. The Osprey is an ISA or PCI product though. >I have their Data General board set (Hawk board), it's pretty cool. > I am curious. How would such a combination work in practice? For example, the Osprey version was designed to be able to run PDP-11 operating systems within a PC environment and had additional software to support the use of files on the PC as if they were raw devices on the PDP-11 (either Qbus or Unibus) so that the normal device drivers on the PDP-11 could access the data in the files on the PC. As a result, it is possible that the PC continued to operate in the normal fashion while the PDP-11 was a coprocessor. If an S100 board had a PDP-11 CPU, then would that become the master CPU? How would device drivers designed for a Qbus or Unibus do disk I/O? How would serial ports to a terminal operate? Just a few questions which are of interest since my background in hardware extends about as far as just being able to recognize Qbus and Unibus boards and insert them into a slot. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 8 21:32:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:32:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110508193022.L11821@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 8 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I did wonder if the 5.25" refered to the diameter of the magneitc disk > and that the square envelope was larger. However, I have just measured a > 5.25" floppy disk with a ruler and the enveleope is 5.25" in each > direction... So what 6" refers to is beyond me. What is the width of the faceplate of the drive? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Sun May 8 21:45:06 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 19:45:06 -0700 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <20110508193022.L11821@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110508193022.L11821@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DC75532.7010005@jwsss.com> I took the dimension of the front of a modern CD drive which was 148.6 for one unit which == 5.85" On 5/8/2011 7:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I did wonder if the 5.25" refered to the diameter of the magneitc disk >> and that the square envelope was larger. However, I have just measured a >> 5.25" floppy disk with a ruler and the enveleope is 5.25" in each >> direction... So what 6" refers to is beyond me. > What is the width of the faceplate of the drive? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > > > > > > > > > > From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun May 8 23:24:24 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 21:24:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If an S100 board had a PDP-11 CPU, then would that > become the master CPU? Bear in mind that I never used the thing; all I have are old memories of a magazine ad. My impression was that it was just like the ISA Osprey. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From silent700 at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:41:06 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:41:06 -0500 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 11:16 AM, Richard wrote: > See item # 170637016956 > > Described as a "VAXstation 3", but I don't think that's the proper > designation. > I have a uVax II in the BA123 case. What makes this one a VAXStation - a gfx board, or something extra? I have only see VAXStations in the desktop model (3100, 4000, etc.) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 8 23:46:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 00:46:11 -0400 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC77193.5050609@neurotica.com> On 5/9/11 12:41 AM, Jason T wrote: >> See item # 170637016956 >> >> Described as a "VAXstation 3", but I don't think that's the proper >> designation. > > I have a uVax II in the BA123 case. What makes this one a VAXStation > - a gfx board, or something extra? I have only see VAXStations in the > desktop model (3100, 4000, etc.) It becomes a VAXstation when you put a VCB01 or VCB02 graphics subsystem in it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun May 8 23:52:05 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 14:52:05 +1000 Subject: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) In-Reply-To: <4DC77193.5050609@neurotica.com> References: <4DC77193.5050609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 2:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > It becomes a VAXstation when you put a VCB01 or VCB02 graphics subsystem in > it. > I am interested in doing a trade if anyone needs a VCB02, I have a VCB02 which I'm willing to swap for a M7656 (VSV21) if anyone is willing. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 9 00:11:19 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 00:11:19 -0500 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <20110509003747.GA55775@night.db.net> References: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> <20110509003747.GA55775@night.db.net> Message-ID: u have to have a licence to use a ham radio? From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 9 00:15:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 01:15:17 -0400 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: References: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> <20110509003747.GA55775@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DC77865.4070108@neurotica.com> On 5/9/11 1:11 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > u have to have a licence to use a ham radio? Ham radio (more properly, amateur radio) is an activity, not a thing. While anyone can receive as much as they want, a license is required to transmit on the frequency ranges ("bands") that are allocated to the amateur radio service. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 9 01:14:14 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> References: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 May 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > I had a ham license (coded Tech class, KA2UZK) from 1984 to 1994, and > was quite active on VHF FM and HF CW during that time. I've missed it > quite a bit over the years and have always intended to relicense, but > the piles of rules changes gave me pause, as rote memorization isn't > really my strong suit. > > Well, the recent discussion of ham radio licensing motivated me to > finally get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days > to assimilate the new rules & regs, and registered for the VE test given > at the hamfest in Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three > exams...Element 2 (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and > Element 4 (Extra class). > > I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time > through! And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. The > FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was granted an > Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. I sat for my first ham exam in April 2010... long overdue. I got everything right on the Technician exam and missed taking General by one point. Then I got laid off a couple weeks later, so I haven't yet gone on the air. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 8 22:24:39 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 23:24:39 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought the Strobe Data Osprey card was built around a FPGA, and is built for ISA and PCI... not S-100. Though, an S-100 card with a PDP-11 processor would be interesting. On 8 May 2011 16:02, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was >> wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said >> processors. > > I'm pretty certain there used to be one. Osprey, IIRC, built around > a J-11. > -- > roger ivie > rivie at ridgenet.net > From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 9 01:45:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 23:45:30 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DC72B1A.30237.317B1E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 May 2011 at 23:24, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > I thought the Strobe Data Osprey card was built around a FPGA, and is > built for ISA and PCI... not S-100. That's what I was wondering. Rather than using an old Soviet-design IC with uncertain supply, it would make more sense to use one of the FPGA PDP11-design CPUs--and probably with a fairly substantial speed gain.. At least one of the PDP-11 designs on Opencores has a built- in IDE interface. --Chuck From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon May 9 05:55:40 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 06:55:40 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DC7C82C.3020602@verizon.net> On 05/09/2011 12:24 AM, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Sun, 8 May 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> If an S100 board had a PDP-11 CPU, then would that >> become the master CPU? > > Bear in mind that I never used the thing; all I have are old > memories of a magazine ad. My impression was that it was just > like the ISA Osprey. most S100 system only had one cpu! It wasn't till way later under IEE696 that multiple bus master slave CPUs were existent and even then less than common. the typical multiple CPU system would be like a Compupro 8/16 where the one CPU board carried a 8085 and 8088 with provisions to switch between them. So the system using the Marinechip T11 board that was the sole cpu. I have both 8/16 and a true multimaster S100 system the later was my own design boards. Allison From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 9 07:34:21 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 08:34:21 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Message-ID: Closest I have personal experience with, is the Alpha Micro AM100 S-100 processor that used the WD-16 aka MCP1600 chipset (LSI-11 chipset but different microcode). It is not a PDP-11 but lemme tell you, every time I see the WD chips on an AM100 CPU board it screams out "coulda been a LSI-11" to me. Working at the problem the other way: I remember a very early IMSAI product, was some sort of Unibus-to-S-100-interface. Never saw one in the flesh but it was in the IMSAI price lists. I think it was some sort of shared memory but maybe it was more than that (DMA? Doubt it but it would be nice.) Are the early IMSAI marketing docs up on the net anywhere? I think a lot of the mini-oriented stuff they listed early on (e.g. 14" SMD drive systems, 9-track systems) were vaporware but I could be proven wrong. Right now I can't even find the price lists on the net. Tim. From kandres at epssecurity.com Mon May 9 07:40:56 2011 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 08:40:56 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1440E95F4F9304408F505EA3DB78958F08D8F5F09E@Exchange1.epssecurity.com> Desoldering a component is a learned skill. I have been in component level repair since the early to mid 1960's. I was trained for depot repair level by the USN. On normal track devices, DIPs, transistors, diodes, etc I rarely go above 650*. If the component has a large back plane of tracking on either side of the board, I will dial up to 750*. As Phil mentioned, a first attack to remove what oxidation and junk is present, is appropriate. Then I will apply some new solder, and watch closely for the "drop" of the new solder which means it has heated thru the hole to the far side. Both the internal plating of the through hole and the pin help convey the heat. Very inexpensive boards with no thru plating will be your enemy. I would not expect to find that in a PDP. An immediate application of a good vacuum to remove the solder is then warranted. If your vacuum device will not pull a vacuum against the area of skin on the outside of your hand between your thumb and forefinger, get another, it is NOT good enough. Follow that with a dental probe to manipulate the desoldered pin if possible, examining both sides of the board. You may hear or feel a "click" as the last solder whisker lets go. I have never used "braid", I have never liked it, you must heat both the braid and the track/pin to melt temperature, difficult at best. A product called, I believe "Solda-Quik", used in surface mount work, can be used as a catalyst to lower the melt temperature of some solders to around 350* and aid in the more rapid removal of the existing solder. I have done surface mount repair with this product. A lifted track can be repaired with some 30 gauge wire wrap wire stripped clean, bridging gaps, or thru holes to solid track on both sides. I have also socketed any DIP I have ever removed, if at all possible, with a good 2 side wipe socket suck as AMP. Kevin Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc Nicet # 90660 Fire Alarm Systems Level II 616 459 0281 kandres at epssecurity.com epssecurity.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech-request at classiccmp.org Sent: Saturday, May 07, 2011 1:00 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 93, Issue 8 Send cctech mailing list submissions to cctech at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctech-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) (Zane H. Healy) 2. Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) (Fran Smith) 3. Re: rack mounting vintage gear (Jonas Otter) 4. Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) (Pontus) 5. Desoldering a chopper transistor (Rob Jarratt) 6. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Pete Turnbull) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 6 May 2011 12:38:59 -0700 From: "Zane H. Healy" Subject: Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , General Discussion: Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" At 12:24 PM -0400 5/6/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 5/6/11 12:16 PM, Richard wrote: >>See item # 170637016956 >> >>Described as a "VAXstation 3", but I don't think that's the proper >>designation. > > That could very well be a VAXstation-3. If it was sold as a >VAXstation-II and upgraded with a KA650 CPU and MS650 memory >module(s), that'd be an appropriate designation. > > In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World >Box", which have dried up significantly on the market in the past >couple of years and are becoming much harder to find than they had >been. I have a MicroVAX III, nice system. What might be interesting to know is what it has for a disk subsystem. If they upgraded the CPU's and RAM, did the also upgrade the hard drives to something other than MFM? In any case I'd say $250 for a KA650 system in a BA123 is well worth the cost, at least it is if you're local. I wouldn't want to have to pay shipping on it! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 13:11:26 -0400 From: Fran Smith Subject: Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4DC42BBE.8080003 at ladylinux.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hiya, > That could very well be a VAXstation-3. If it was sold as a > VAXstation-II and upgraded with a KA650 CPU and MS650 memory module(s), > that'd be an appropriate designation. I had one just like this back in the day with full graphics , mouse etc that I used as a workstation. I upgraded it from MV-11 to MV-III in box with the above kit. Nice versatile units and I hope they go somewhere they can be used. Fran ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 20:09:02 +0200 From: Jonas Otter Subject: Re: rack mounting vintage gear To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4DC4393E.3010304 at otter.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > What exaclty is an "anti-tip feature"? > Most racks have a pull out stabilizer of some kind, or even jutting out little "feet" to prevent them> from tipping over forwards while you pull heavy things out on the rails. So, in order to pull out a > device, first you pull out the anti-tip bar at the bottom, then pull out the device. The DEC H960 > racks don't have that pull-out bar, instead they have two feet that stick out the front of the > cabinet a foot or so, and serve to trip people walking too close to the computer... > > -Ian You can see an anti-tip bar here:http://www.flickr.com/photos/textfiles/3789164168/ If you look at the bottom of the rightmost TU80 you can see a silvery T-shaped thing with a foot on it. That is the anti-tip bar. /Jonas ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 22:34:20 +0200 From: Pontus Subject: Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DC45B4C.6070803 at update.uu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed 2011-05-06 18:24, Dave McGuire skrev: > > In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World > Box", which have dried up significantly on the market in the past > couple of years and are becoming much harder to find than they had been. > It is definitely on the want list :) If anyone local to me (sweden that is) has anything in a BA123 I wouldn't mind driving a bit and pay a bit for it. I've seen two in Sweden, on with GPX Regards, Pontus. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:04:40 +0100 From: "Rob Jarratt" Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <037a01cc0c95$ce2121c0$6a636540$@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder wick (braid?). I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly with the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any solder not matter what I do. One of the pins, however, goes onto a track that is more like a large area of metal and the iron does not even seem to melt the solder there. The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one pin at the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder left holding each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the pump or wick. So it seems to me that you would need to have the solder in all 3 pin holes molten, all at the same time, to be able to lift the component. What is the trick? Or is it just that my soldering iron is not good (powerful) enough? Thanks Rob ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 10:40:55 +0100 From: Pete Turnbull Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DC513A7.3000405 at dunnington.plus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not > experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble > desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks > in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap > Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one > of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder > wick (braid?). You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do need a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've found the holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend to be a close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when you get all the solder out. I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do so quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the longer you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to damage something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes adding fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first attempt removes most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh solder helps remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to side to break the last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad across the gap to the pin -- if you can! I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow tip for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, either -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York End of cctech Digest, Vol 93, Issue 8 ************************************* From bob at jfcl.com Mon May 9 09:41:11 2011 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:41:11 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> Message-ID: <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> > Jerome Fine (jhfinedp3k at compsys.to) wrote: >How would device drivers designed for a Qbus or Unibus do disk I/O? > How would serial ports to a terminal operate? This is the killer with the S-100 plan. I've got a bag of T-11 chips and had considered doing something like the SBC6120 for a PDP-11, but it's pointless unless all the peripherals are also PDP-11 compatible. Unless, of course, you have lots of time on your hands and want to write your own PDP-11 OS and tools, and that'd take an order of magnitude more time than designing the hardware. You could, if you had the right bits and knew enough about RT11, just write new device drivers for RT11 and port it to S100 hardware. I'm sure there are people with enough knowledge to do that, but RT11 is _not free_. What hobbyists do in their garage is one thing, but any commercial endeavor would have to be careful about putting their name on that. AFAIK there are no "free" OSes that will run on a T11. 2bsd is your only option, and that'll need at least an F11 CPU. An F11 S-100 card would be a cool project (I'd buy one!) but it'd be much harder. F11s are a multi-chip chipset, much less well documented at the hardware pin level, and less available than T11s. There's always the FPGA route, but then the S100 becomes superfluous. You could fit a whole 11/73, including all the peripherals, into any modern FPGA without even trying and all you'd need beyond that are the connectors and level shifters. Bob From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon May 9 09:55:54 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 07:55:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2011, Bob Armstrong wrote: > AFAIK there are no "free" OSes that will run on a T11. What about the fuzzball? I don't know much about it, but IIRC it's free. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon May 9 10:02:03 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:02:03 +0000 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Message-ID: <201105091502.p49EwqdC003209@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> >On Mon May 9 14:57:10 2011 bob at jfcl.com wrote >> Jerome Fine (jhfinedp3k at compsys.to) wrote: >>How would device drivers designed for a Qbus or Unibus do disk I/O? >> How would serial ports to a terminal operate? > You could, if you had the right bits and knew enough about RT11, just > write new device drivers for RT11 and port it to S100 hardware. I'm sure > there are people with enough knowledge to do that, but RT11 is _not free_. > What hobbyists do in their garage is one thing, but any commercial > endeavor would have to be careful about putting their name on that. Wouldn't it be possible to sell a kit containing the complete board and enclosure, power supply etc. and device drivers, but *not* the OS? I think most hobbyists wouldn't have a problem getting RT11/RSX whatever on their own using the hobbyist license and installing it themselves. The hardware part (and the device drivers) is what most people can't do. I think a complete kit less the OS is viable and fair to all parties. I would like to see more (any!) choices in that area, new retro hardware ready for vintage but readily available OS. From db at db.net Mon May 9 10:16:21 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 11:16:21 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <1440E95F4F9304408F505EA3DB78958F08D8F5F09E@Exchange1.epssecurity.com> References: <1440E95F4F9304408F505EA3DB78958F08D8F5F09E@Exchange1.epssecurity.com> Message-ID: <20110509151621.GA51654@night.db.net> On Mon, May 09, 2011 at 08:40:56AM -0400, Kevin Andres wrote: > > Desoldering a component is a learned skill. I have been .. > As Phil mentioned, a first attack to remove what oxidation > and junk is present, is appropriate. Then I will apply some > new solder, and watch closely for the "drop" of the new solder > Follow that with a dental probe to manipulate the desoldered A large sewing needle will do as well, or a small jewelers screwdriver. > A lifted track can be repaired with some 30 gauge wire wrap wire > stripped clean, bridging gaps, or thru holes to solid track on both Don't forget to superglue the wire to the board on longer runs to keep the wire from flopping about. These were always called barnacles around here. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon May 9 10:50:29 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 17:50:29 +0200 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> References: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: "Dave McGuire" Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 2:25 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: OT: ham radio licenses > I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time through! > And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. The FCC > processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was granted an > Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. Well Done! Her in The Netherlands we call the short wave band (10 - 80 meter) the "gelijkstroombanden" (roughly translates to DC current bands). With your call sign (4HZ) you would qualify I guess :-) > Anyway, enough of my blather, I'm just proud to have accomplished that > and wanted to tell everyone. I'm hoping to catch some of you on the air! > > -Dave > 73's DE AK4HZ Would be nice to meet CCMP'ers on the waves. I am ashamed to say that have my full license some 5 years, but yet have to make my first QSO on HF. I have been a licensed HAM radio amateur since the seventies, but took the opportunity to undergo the last official morse code exam here by the Dutch Postal Service. Practiced listening for 4 months *every* day 15 minutes and the last 4 weeks practices my "hand skills". That was enough to pass! I guess it's time to listen out on 20 meters ... 73 de PA8PDP (Henk) From trag at io.com Mon May 9 11:29:54 2011 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 11:29:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2ef7812efc76a6b6876c7172b285f526.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:43:10 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder >> wick (braid?). >> >> I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly >> with the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any >> solder not > > Thats what I tend to find too. I much prefer the solder sucker (pump). I have had similar experiences with several brands of desolder braid/wick but I have also found that the Chemtronics brand always works well for me. Unfortunately, I have not been able to find it anywhere local and always must order it from Digi-Key. I suspect it is simply a matter of being impregnated with flux, but I'm not certain. Jeff Walther From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 9 11:59:36 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 12:59:36 -0400 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor Message-ID: > I have had similar experiences with several brands of desolder braid/wick > but I have also found that the Chemtronics brand always works well for me. > Unfortunately, I have not been able to find it anywhere local and always > must order it from Digi-Key. > I suspect it is simply a matter of being impregnated with flux, but I'm > not certain. ChemWick (which is indeed better than the other brands but this applies to the Other brands too) will "dry out" and become much less useful If not stored properly. I suspect Digikey etc. move it a lot faster and store it more consistently than the local shops or many lesser mail order houses. If it does get dried out, dipping it in one of the fancy-pants fluxes will Pep it up considerably :-) Many of the higher-tech solder pastes and fluxes have to be stored at Even more tightly controlled temperature/humidity. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon May 9 12:53:32 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 13:53:32 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> Message-ID: <4DC82A1C.7060201@verizon.net> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Jerome Fine (jhfinedp3k at compsys.to) wrote: >> How would device drivers designed for a Qbus or Unibus do disk I/O? >> How would serial ports to a terminal operate? >> > > This is the killer with the S-100 plan. I've got a bag of T-11 chips and > had considered doing something like the SBC6120 for a PDP-11, but it's > pointless unless all the peripherals are also PDP-11 compatible. Unless, of > course, you have lots of time on your hands and want to write your own > PDP-11 OS and tools, and that'd take an order of magnitude more time than > designing the hardware. > That is the issue writing RT compatable drivers. The issue is the easy cpu is T11, the only OS that runs on that due to max ram of 32KW is RT11. RT11 is easily found and drivers are not that hard but no one has done that. An alternate is an OS that has a source(in C as in CP/M68) or could be spec'd easily such as CP/M. > You could, if you had the right bits and knew enough about RT11, just > write new device drivers for RT11 and port it to S100 hardware. I'm sure > there are people with enough knowledge to do that, but RT11 is _not free_. > What hobbyists do in their garage is one thing, but any commercial endeavor > would have to be careful about putting their name on that. > > Some things like DL11(Serial line card) compatable port are easy to do and a quad DL could be done and used with a TU58 (or a solidstate analog of one). I have done that and it runs RT out of the box on a T11. It's not S100 and fairly simple but complete as RT11SJ can tell. Forget RT11FB, RSTS or RSX as they will not do well in 24KW. Faster and more involved mass storage is harder but you have a huge assortment of non MSCP devices to imitate. I leave out MSCP as that is a CPU (T11) on a board to do that. One approach is to make a DL compatable port that does not use the serial deivce but looks to RT like DL and has a local PIC or what not to make a SD memory looks like a 32mb disk (RT does not use more than 32MB without LD) and if the handshake looks like DL then your can use the TU driver (TU58) resized for a larger number of blocks. > AFAIK there are no "free" OSes that will run on a T11. 2bsd is your only > option, and that'll need at least an F11 CPU. An F11 S-100 card would be a > cool project (I'd buy one!) but it'd be much harder. F11s are a multi-chip > chipset, much less well documented at the hardware pin level, and less > available than T11s. > > There is UNIX but that is bigger and you still ahve the device driver issue. I'd think something like Linux or uClinux are both possible but again drivers. > There's always the FPGA route, but then the S100 becomes superfluous. You > could fit a whole 11/73, including all the peripherals, into any modern FPGA > without even trying and all you'd need beyond that are the connectors and > level shifters. > > There is that. Genrally the PDP11 on S100 is not a great scheme as the bus to be reasonable has to be run as 16bit mode and memory has to support RMW and that may cause havock with some dynamic cards. That and something like the T11 is just right for a SBC with 32KW of static ram and a DLV11J( 4 DL compatable serial ports). Add a boot/ODT rom at 173000Q and your set to go. That and it's less effort then trying to wedge it into the S100 format and bus. Generally I did the T11 thing to see if I could but, I have a BA11VA with a 11/23 cpu, 256KB of ram, DLV11J (4 port serial) and MRV11(boot rom) running for the last 30 years with a TU58 and generally speaking larger boxes are easier to do. It's more effort to build up a Tll than find the bits to do a 11/23 in a BA32 box. I have several other Qbus 11s (LSI11 [x2], 11/23B[x3], 11/73) as complete systems already. I could ahve used the falcon (SBC21) CPU/Rom/IO card with a pair of MXV11s but the 11/23 is better performance and has the MMU. You have to understand RT11 and DEC pdp11 system for the above to make sense. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 9 12:57:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 10:57:34 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC7C89E.1984.8ECD6F@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 May 2011 at 12:59, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > ChemWick (which is indeed better than the other brands but this > applies to the Other brands too) will "dry out" and become much less > useful If not stored properly. That's "Chem-Wik" (tm) and "Soder-Wick" (tm) by Chemtronics. > If it does get dried out, dipping it in one of the fancy-pants fluxes > will Pep it up considerably :-) I find that a brief dip of the braid in denatured alcohol helps considerably (at least with "Soder Wik".) But, as I said, I use it more in soldering than in de-soldering. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon May 9 12:56:21 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 10:56:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More on telehack Message-ID: http://telehack.com/telehack.html Documentation plus history about what it is and what it can do. Fun stuff! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 9 13:18:18 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 14:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <2ef7812efc76a6b6876c7172b285f526.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <2ef7812efc76a6b6876c7172b285f526.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 May 2011, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:43:10 +0100 (BST) >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > >>> of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder >>> wick (braid?). >>> >>> I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly >>> with the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any >>> solder not >> >> Thats what I tend to find too. I much prefer the solder sucker (pump). > > I have had similar experiences with several brands of desolder braid/wick > but I have also found that the Chemtronics brand always works well for me. > Unfortunately, I have not been able to find it anywhere local and always > must order it from Digi-Key. Seconded. The crappy solder braid at Radio Shack is not worth the effort to throw it in the trash pail. Chemtronics + paste flux works magic. Steve -- From vintagecoder at aol.com Mon May 9 14:50:00 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 19:50:00 +0000 Subject: Vintage Computer Festival East: InfoAge Science Center, Wall Township, New Jersey Message-ID: <201105091950.p49Jo4Yc002312@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> I saw this online and figure it's ok to cross-post here since it's public information. I have no knowledge or involvement in this but thought it might be relevant for the group. If this kind of post is unwelcome, please let me know. ---------------- WHO: You! WHAT: VCF East 7.0 WHERE: InfoAge Science Center, Wall Township, New Jersey WHEN: May 14-15 WHY: Vintage computers! The Vintage Computer Festival East returns on May 14-15 at the InfoAge Science Center, 2201 Marconi Rd., Wall Township, New Jersey, 07719. ? This year's event, VCF East 7.0, is expected to be our largest ever on the east coast. There will be more than 20 hands-on exhibits, six lectures, and two hands-on classes. ?Also planned are a book sale, consignment sale, food, live restoration of an IBM mainframe from 1965, museum tours, prizes, and even a reading of epic technology poetry. The hours are Saturday 10am-7pm and Sunday 10am-5pm. ?Lectures and classes are scheduled for the mornings and the exhibit hall is scheduled for the afternoons. ?Tickets are just $10/day, $15/weekend, and free for ages 17 and younger. ?Parking is free. Our classes are limited to just 10 people each. ?A few spots are still available for a $40 pre-registration. Full details are posted at http://www.vintage.org/2011/east and http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7 or contact VCF East producer Evan Koblentz at evan at snarc.net or (646) 546-9999. Tickets are sold at the gate. ?Class registration is at http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/workshop.php. VCF East 7.0 is sponsored by: - MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists) -- http://www.midatlanticretro.org - VintageTech -- http://www.vintagetech.com - InfoAge Science Center -- http://www.infoage.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 14:04:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:04:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 8, 11 08:25:33 pm Message-ID: > finally get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days > to assimilate the new rules & regs, and registered for the VE test given > at the hamfest in Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three > exams...Element 2 (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and > Element 4 (Extra class). > > I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time > through! And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. > The FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was > granted an Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. Congratulations!. Am I correct that that's all there is to pass (I am not very knowledgable on the US regulations). > > Of I'm still in West Virginia handling family business, while all of > my ham gear is in Florida, but my mother (who is house-sitting for me in > Florida) was able to ship two of my HTs up here so I'd have something at > least. When I have access to my HF gear (Yaesu FT-ONE and FT-920, Heath > HW-7, HW-8, and HW-9 QRP rigs, and Heath SB-101) I hope to try out some > of the neat new(ish) stuff like PSK31 that came up while I was away. > High-tech stuff aside, I'm sure to do some plain old SSB and CW on the > HF bands. IMHO it's a lot more fun to take some glassfets anf design a transmitter and receiver yourself. But then you know me by now :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 14:00:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:00:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <4DC56FE1.8010300@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at May 7, 11 09:14:25 am Message-ID: > Also, once you have most of the solder removed from the feed through > hole then you can push on the leg of the device with a small screwdriver Sometimes fine-nosed pliers are a more suitable tool. > (or the like) to try to release it from the side of the hole. Most > device legs go in the hole on an angle, thus there is a tiny film of > solder holding the leg to the side of the hole - sometimes on both the > top and the bottom of the hole. You will feel or hear a tiny 'click' as > the leg releases. > > Looks like this (somewhat crappy ASCII sketch) > > \ > |\ | <--- Top of feed through hole > | \ | > | \ | > | \| <--- Bottom of feed through hole > \ <--- Leg of device > > So you are trying to break the top and bottom points by pushing the leg > away from the side of the hole it is soldered to. This works well fro removing DIP ICs and the like. After using the solder sucker and freeing the pins on the sodler side, you then put a small screwdriver blade on the component side of the board so that it presses on the ICB pin close rioght on the PCB. Then push the pin inwards, towards the body of the IC. As you said, you'll feel it 'give. After freeing all the pins, the IC should lift out with no problems. Another tirck which I hesitate to metnion for components with pins in a line, like SIL resisotr packs is, after desoldering nad freeing the pins as a bove, if it still won't come free, rock it carefully at right angles ot the line of pins. You can then see whick pinsare moving (and are thus free, and which need to be resoldered and desoldered again to free them. > If done correctly the device will then be easy to remove with only > finger force - no prying with the screwdriver! IMHO much of the skill in removing components is to know how much force you can apply without damaging either the PCB or the component. You can try carefully prising it up with a screwdriver, but if it doesn't come easily, don't apply more force or you will either crack the component or rip traces off the PCB. Stop and find out what's holding it.. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 14:12:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:12:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Stoness" at May 9, 11 00:11:19 am Message-ID: > > u have to have a licence to use a ham radio? > Er, yes!. Or rather, you need a license to transmit on the amateur bands. AFAIK you can receive without a license. To get an amateur radio license (at least in the countries I've heard about, and I aussme it's the same everywhree), you have to pass a technical-ish exam which is supposed to show that you have enough knowledge to transmit without causing interference to other radio services. It makes sesne, radio amateurs are allowed (and IMHO should be encouraged) to design, build, and modify their equipment, so it's important they know how make a transmitter which doesn't hve spurious emissions at other frequencies. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 14:46:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:46:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: from "Roger Ivie" at May 9, 11 07:55:54 am Message-ID: > > On Mon, 9 May 2011, Bob Armstrong wrote: > > AFAIK there are no "free" OSes that will run on a T11. > > What about the fuzzball? I don't know much about it, but IIRC it's free. I don;t know much about it either, and I';ve not looked at it for years, but from ehat I remember you need RT11 (not free) for some of the untilities nad also to build fuzzball in the first place. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 14:07:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:07:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <20110508193022.L11821@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 8, 11 07:32:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 8 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I did wonder if the 5.25" refered to the diameter of the magneitc disk > > and that the square envelope was larger. However, I have just measured a > > 5.25" floppy disk with a ruler and the enveleope is 5.25" in each > > direction... So what 6" refers to is beyond me. > > What is the width of the faceplate of the drive? Comparing it with the width of the disk slot, I would say under 6"... OK, I am sure I can find 2 points inside the drive that are 6" apart (like pin 1 of this IC to pin 13 of that IC :-)).... For that matter I could probably find 2 points inside a TM100 that are 3.5" apart. Does that make it a 3.5" drtve? :-) -tony > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > > > > > > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 14:45:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:45:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <1440E95F4F9304408F505EA3DB78958F08D8F5F09E@Exchange1.epssecurity.com> from "Kevin Andres" at May 9, 11 08:40:56 am Message-ID: [...] > convey the heat. Very inexpensive boards with no thru plating=20 > will be your enemy. I would not expect to find that in a PDP. The advantage of no through plating is that its vairly easy to get all the solder off (it will not remain in the hole, holding the component lead to the sides of the hole). On the other hand, it's a lot easier to lift tracks on such a board. I think all the PCBs in a PDP11 are going to be through plated. It;'s been some time since I've worked on the PSU in question (H7140), but I am pretty sure the PCBs I repaired in mine were through plated. [...] > I have never used "braid", I have never liked it, you must heat Like you I've never got on with braid for desoldering through-hole parts. I have a reel in my toolikt though for some SMD repairs. It's useful for removign bridges between pins on SOICs and PQFPs. Actually, a lot of the ime, braid works well for desoldering such devices for removal. [...] > A lifted track can be repaired with some 30 gauge wire wrap wire > stripped clean, bridging gaps, or thru holes to solid track on both That's fine for logic signal tracks, but for tracks carrying a higher current (for example inside the PSU), I'd use thicker wire. I am told taht for the highest reliability you should solder the wire to a component lead, via, or similar., and not just put it across the break and solder it to the track. That said, I have never found the latter method partciularly unreliable (by that I mean that I have repaired PCBs that way and nevre had problems from the repair going open-circuit). What does NOT work is to but a blob of colder across the break. > sides. I have also socketed any DIP I have ever removed, if at all > possible, with a good 2 side wipe socket suck as AMP.=20 I prefer turned-pin (machined pin) sockets. I don;t think I've evr had a bad contact in one of those. I;ll socket any 'expensive' or programemd device (EPROM, PAL, etc) that I've removed. But I generalyl solder TTL, 4000-series CMOS, etc, directly to the PCB. The on exception is on something that I am designing (where I socket everything), it's a lot easier to debug a circuit if you cna pull one of the ICs and inject suitble signals on the socket contacts. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 9 15:07:34 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 13:07:34 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: <4DC56FE1.8010300@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at May 7, Message-ID: Hi My problem with solder wicks is that if it is working well, it pulls all the solder up the wick, including any that was on the iron and I no longer have good heat conduction. This tends to leave the wick attached to the board and I often end up lifting traces. I haven't lifted any traces with my sucker in many years. ( not to say I never did, just not for quite some time ). Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 9 15:13:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 13:13:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110509131137.H39950@shell.lmi.net> > > What is the width of the faceplate of the drive? On Mon, 9 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Comparing it with the width of the disk slot, I would say under 6"... > OK, I am sure I can find 2 points inside the drive that are 6" apart > (like pin 1 of this IC to pin 13 of that IC :-)).... For that matter I > could probably find 2 points inside a TM100 that are 3.5" apart. Does > that make it a 3.5" drtve? :-) What is the distance from the center of the spindle to the "directory track" (giving myself LOTS of wiggle room) on an 8" disk? Surely radius is more inportant than diameter :-) From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon May 9 15:22:13 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:22:13 -0500 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8051F449-C267-4D73-95E2-023E7A642251@lunar-tokyo.net> On May 9, 2011, at 2:12 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > AFAIK you can receive without a license. I used to be able to say "It is never illegal to possess or use a radio receiver in the US." Then cell-blocking happened, and now I have to say "It is very rarely illegal to possess or use a radio receiver in the US. You cannot monitor cellphones." Now there's a lot of anti-scanning and anti-monitoring laws all over the place, because anyone who listens to the police/fire/EMS/etc are terrorists. So now it's a minefield out there, best to make sure whatever receiver you have CANNOT monitor outside the ham/shortwave bands, lest you meet some unhappy officers and do the taser dance. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 9 15:32:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 21:32:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <20110509131137.H39950@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 9, 11 01:13:46 pm Message-ID: > What is the distance from the center of the spindle to the "directory > track" (giving myself LOTS of wiggle room) on an 8" disk? Surely radius > is more inportant than diameter :-) IIRC, most 8" drives were 48tpi, and had 77 cylinders. What I don't know is the radius of the outside cylinder (which would be track 0 on side 0 IIRC). It's got to be A little under 4", of course. I don;t have a spare 8" disk to rip apart and measure the diameter of the magnetic disk itself, nor do I know how far in track 0 is fro mthe edge of the disk. Once we know that, obvious places pf the directory are on track 0, track 1 (allowing track 0 to be used for a bootstrap) and track 38 (in the middle). Which would be 0, 1/48" and 38/48" in from the position of track 0. [Yes I did once -- but only once -- make the mistake of forgetting to divide the change in diameter by 2 when turning a metal part. In other words I thought 'Oh, I need to take 50 thou off the diameter' and then moved my cutting too in my 50 thou (in several passes of course) on the lathe. Result : the part was undersized, I'd reduced the radius by 50 thou, and thus the diameter by 100 thou. I am otld some Americal lathes have the cross-slide calibrated so that the cutting tool moves half the distance it claims, the side is calibrated for the change in diameter. British lathes do what they say, the slide is calibrated for the actual distance the tool moves. Which is actually more convenient, particualrly if you also do milling or drilling in the the lathe.] -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 9 15:55:33 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 16:55:33 -0400 Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC854C5.3060606@neurotica.com> On 5/9/11 3:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> finally get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days >> to assimilate the new rules& regs, and registered for the VE test given >> at the hamfest in Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three >> exams...Element 2 (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and >> Element 4 (Extra class). >> >> I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time >> through! And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. >> The FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was >> granted an Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. > > Congratulations!. Am I correct that that's all there is to pass (I am > not very knowledgable on the US regulations). Thank you! Yes, that's all there is to pass, "Amateur Extra" is the highest class of license here. >> Of I'm still in West Virginia handling family business, while all of >> my ham gear is in Florida, but my mother (who is house-sitting for me in >> Florida) was able to ship two of my HTs up here so I'd have something at >> least. When I have access to my HF gear (Yaesu FT-ONE and FT-920, Heath >> HW-7, HW-8, and HW-9 QRP rigs, and Heath SB-101) I hope to try out some >> of the neat new(ish) stuff like PSK31 that came up while I was away. >> High-tech stuff aside, I'm sure to do some plain old SSB and CW on the >> HF bands. > > IMHO it's a lot more fun to take some glassfets anf design a transmitter > and receiver yourself. But then you know me by now :-) That's the best thing about amateur radio: It has so many facets, something for everyone. I like just plain "operating", as well as building my own rigs, and (for the benefit of others here, as you already know this) there are dozens of other facets. I built several transmitters and receivers in my younger years, almost exclusively 40m QRP CW single-board designs from the ARRL handbooks. I put rubber feet on the PCBs and ran them like that. :) That facet is great, but I've not done it in a long time. I look forward to doing it again. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From kandres at epssecurity.com Mon May 9 07:50:34 2011 From: kandres at epssecurity.com (Kevin Andres) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 08:50:34 -0400 Subject: Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1440E95F4F9304408F505EA3DB78958F08D8F5F0A4@Exchange1.epssecurity.com> As far as the "broken track", with difficult to remove components, and the lack of an octopus with scope, an exacto knife slice of track can be used to meter suspect components without removal. A solder bridge then repairs the "service trick". As Tony suggested, watch for modifications that may have altered the track on purpose! Kevin Andres Senior Technician Engineered Protection Systems Inc Nicet # 90660 Fire Alarm Systems Level II 616 459 0281 kandres at epssecurity.com epssecurity.com -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech-request at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 6:46 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 93, Issue 10 Send cctech mailing list submissions to cctech at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctech-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: "Original" IBM PC (Tony Duell) 2. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Tony Duell) 3. Re: rack mounting vintage gear (Al Kossow) 4. Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) (Wolfgang Eichberger) 5. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (dwight elvey) 6. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Dave Caroline) 7. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Chuck Guzis) 8. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (John Robertson) 9. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Brent Hilpert) 10. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Rob Jarratt) 11. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (arcarlini at iee.org) 12. IBM 3480 help (Patrick Finnegan) 13. Re: IBM 3480 help (vintagecoder at aol.com) 14. Re: IBM 3480 help (Al Kossow) 15. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Geoffrey Reed) 16. Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Pete Turnbull) 17. Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) (Mark Meiss) 18. Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) (Richard) 19. Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) (Mark Meiss) 20. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (arcarlini at iee.org) 21. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Rob Jarratt) 22. S-100 EPROM boards are here! (Andrew Lynch) 23. RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor (Chuck Guzis) 24. pdp11 CPU on S100 board? (David Griffith) 25. Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? (Roger Ivie) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 18:46:59 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: "Original" IBM PC To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > > HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! > > "...or 5.25" as they are sometimes called." You mean, by everyone else on = Indeed... I did wonder if the 5.25" refered to the diameter of the magneitc disk and that the square envelope was larger. However, I have just measured a 5.25" floppy disk with a ruler and the enveleope is 5.25" in each direction... So what 6" refers to is beyond me. (OK, you can call me cluelrdd for not knowing the size of the minifloppy disk, but at least I measurted it rather than making some silly comment...) > the planet, even in metric-based countries? "This computer has been in my = > family for generations. I inherited the computer from my grandfather and my= > uncle originally purchased it...." Generations? The machine was introduc= > ed in 1981....=20 > > Whatever this guy's smoking, it's pretty serious stuff. Maybe *that's* wor= > th $65K, for viable cuttings - not that I would know anything about that so= > rt of thing, really -- Ian =20 Not that I am going to bid on it, but I wonder just how 'original' this is... To me an origianl IBM PC implies a 16K-64K motherboard. And a 63W power supply I would also claim that the expansio cards were origianl IBM ones. I wouldn't object to _ectras_ being third-party, but there should be enough IBM boards, of the types produced when the machine was made, to have a working system (that is, video card and floppy controller at least). But if, for exmaple, an MDA card has been rpelaced at some point by a Hercules card and the originial IBM MDA card is not included with the machine then that is not 'original'. -tony ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 19:01:19 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain > And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track Oh you will :-). I'll admit ot having lifted my fair share of tracks too. And damaged the odd bit of through-plating. > damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it is a > little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break in the > track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, but I don't You won;t normally break a track by just letting the iron rub across it. Are you sure this track break is not deliberate? Have you checked the components connected to each side of it and made sure they should be connected accordign to the schematics? -tony ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 06 May 2011 17:13:26 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: rack mounting vintage gear To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4DC48EA6.1040902 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/5/11 11:21 PM, David Griffith wrote: > My story is that I scored a couple IMSAIs and Altairs with the catch that I had to take most of the contents of the shed. I'm still selling off that stuff. > And a good lot of stuff you got there, too. It would be nice to see if Morrow MICRONIX is in there somewhere. re. Fujitsu tape drive If someone wants one in the Bay Area, I have a complete unit I'm about to scrap. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 13:53:23 +0200 From: Wolfgang Eichberger Subject: Re: ebay: VAXstations (Salt Lake City; I can pick up for you) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 same here for austria. regards, wolfgang ps: can pick up and store too, if someone needs this. -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/5/6 Pontus : > 2011-05-06 18:24, Dave McGuire skrev: >> >> ?In any event, that one (he says he has two) is in the BA123 "World Box", >> which have dried up significantly on the market in the past couple of years >> and are becoming much harder to find than they had been. >> > > It is definitely on the want list :) If anyone local to me (sweden that is) > has anything in a BA123 I wouldn't mind driving a bit and pay a bit for it. > > I've seen two in Sweden, on with GPX > > Regards, > Pontus. > > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 06:26:01 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:40:55 +0100 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > > On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my PDP11 so > > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I am not > > experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of trouble > > desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB tracks > > in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap > > Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I have one > > of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder > > wick (braid?). > > You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do need > a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've found the > holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend to be a > close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when you get all > the solder out. > > I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those > trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything > else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do so > quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the longer > you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to damage > something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes adding > fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first attempt removes > most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh solder helps > remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to side to break the > last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad across the gap to the > pin -- if you can! Hi I thought I'd mention that you always need to refill with solder if it misses getting it all out. Try heating both sides with two irons( tough with only two hands but I've gotten good with holding the pump and iron at one side with just the one hand. You need something to clamp the board. Also, when first melting the solder, make sure the pin is free and centered in the hole. I push the lead around with the iron and solder melted until it feels right( it is a feel thing ). It seems that no matter how well it is cleared, some small bridge seems to be there. Often this can be easily broken loose with a little pressure from a small screwdriver. If that doesn't work, I put the iron on the lead with sideways pressure. Just as the lead pops, I remove the iron. The idea is to heat it just enough to make the solder start to soften but not so much as to melt it all and attach the lead someplace else. If this fails, I refill the hole with solder and try to adjust the lead again, while hot, to center it in the hole. As a last resort, I go to a friend house that manufactures burn-in boards. He has a solder pot. It is full and I just set the board on the brim of solder. I then just pull the part out. Do remember through all this, do not put pressure on the traces with the iron. Use a clean iron well tinned iron. You can't clear a partially cleared hole, you need to refill it and try again. Use bottled flux if you can get some, it helps to keep the solder surfaces fresh. Also, although many like solder wick, I'd done more damage with it then I'd like. I now only use the pump( not the small one with the yellow lever on the side. It is junk.The larger the better ). Dwight > > I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow tip > for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, either > -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 14:40:12 +0100 From: Dave Caroline Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 A few points 1. If the device is dead, or cheap, just cut it off above the board, the board is rare/delicate the device commodity and replaceable, then each leg can be got out above board, even the solder sucking process can do this for you. least board heating 2. after sucking all three, I try to jiggle each lead to check its free/break any small amount of solder left, hole has to be reasonable clear 3. with a large iron add solder to get a blob on all three, pull device out and then suck holes after 4. similar to above but rapid sliding of iron over the pins to get all melted, then pull device 5. back in the old days there were iron tips around for multi pin melting, I never found them to be too good braid never worked that well for me Dave Caroline ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 08:33:01 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4DC503BD.29324.2A3F5E at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 7 May 2011 at 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The thing I really don't understand is how you desolder more than one > pin at the same time. There is always bound to be just a little solder > left holding each pin in place no matter how much you remove with the > pump or wick. So it seems to me that you would need to have the > solder in all 3 pin holes molten, all at the same time, to be able to > lift the component. > > What is the trick? Or is it just that my soldering iron is not good > (powerful) enough? If you're going to do much repair of PCBs, a temperature-controlled iron is pretty important. I use my venerable Weller TCP iron--a time- proven design that's still in production after, what, a half-century? However, there are less-expensive imported options. A clean and well-tinned iron is vital to this kind of work. If your iron isn't tinned, the molten solder can't conduct heat to the joint and you end up spending too much time trying to get a joint to melt. If you're using a solder pump, make sure it's the big one; the little ones don't seem to be worth much. It often helps to add solder to a joint before you use the pump to suck the solder out. Once you've sucked the solder out of a joint (you should be able to see daylight through the joint), wiggle the component gently to break the bond between the lead and the PCB trace formed by any remaining solder film and it should pop right out. Others have suggested cutting the component body off the leads to reduce heat conduction away from the joint being worked on--and that's a very good suggestion. If you still don't trust yourself, you may want to look into a low- temperature solution, such as Chip-Quick, which is basically a low- temperature fusible alloy that takes solder into solution. It's quite valuable duing SMT rework (I have yet to damage a PCB using it to replace surface mount ICs), but it might also work with traditional through-hole devices. http://www.chipquikinc.com/index.htm I've got lots of desoldering braid, but I tend to use it for soldering SMT packages, rather than desoldering them. --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 09:14:25 -0700 From: John Robertson Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Message-ID: <4DC56FE1.8010300 at telus.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 07/05/2011 10:04, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my >> PDP11 so >> that I can test it and if necessary replace it. The trouble is that I >> am not >> experienced with soldering and desoldering and I am having a lot of >> trouble >> desoldering it. I have made several attempts, damaging one of the PCB >> tracks >> in the process (should be repairable by adding a wire). I have a cheap >> Weller 40W soldering iron and I have been using some narrow tips. I >> have one >> of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder >> wick (braid?). > > You don't normally desolder more than one pin at a time but you do > need a good iron and a good pump. On DEC PSUs particularly, I've > found the holes are, um, less than generous -- the component pins tend > to be a close fit and there's not much room around the pin even when > you get all the solder out. > > I normally use a 100W Weller soldering gun for things like those > trannies (I have a 50W Weller temperature-controlled iron for anything > else). The trick is to get the solder hot enough to flow, and to do > so quickly. If you can't do that, you're unlike to succeed, and the > longer you leave the heat on the pad, the more likely you are to > damage something. Then use a large pump to suck it off. Sometimes > adding fresh solder and trying a second time helps -- the first > attempt removes most of the oxidised stuff and the flux from the fresh > solder helps remove the last of it. Then push the pin from side to > side to break the last whisker of solder that bridges from the pad > across the gap to the pin -- if you can! > > I'd suggest getting a bigger iron if you can, and don't use a narrow > tip for large components. I wouldn't waste any time on solder braid, > either -- fine for small stuff but probably not for this. > Also, once you have most of the solder removed from the feed through hole then you can push on the leg of the device with a small screwdriver (or the like) to try to release it from the side of the hole. Most device legs go in the hole on an angle, thus there is a tiny film of solder holding the leg to the side of the hole - sometimes on both the top and the bottom of the hole. You will feel or hear a tiny 'click' as the leg releases. Looks like this (somewhat crappy ASCII sketch) \ |\ | <--- Top of feed through hole | \ | | \ | | \| <--- Bottom of feed through hole \ <--- Leg of device So you are trying to break the top and bottom points by pushing the leg away from the side of the hole it is soldered to. If done correctly the device will then be easy to remove with only finger force - no prying with the screwdriver! Hope that makes sense! John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 10:01:54 -0700 From: Brent Hilpert Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <0aa498f92dc635573a396ff7494972f1 at cs.ubc.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my > PDP11 so > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. As you are just trying to isolate the device for testing, sometimes it is easier to open the circuits elsewhere to achieve the isolation. For example, if the collector goes to an offboard transformer through a connector, then that lead is easily isolated; the base is probably fed by a resistor and lifting one lead of the resistor will isolate the base. With 2 of the 3 connections to the transistor open, it is isolated for testing purposes. TO-220 packages (3 leads with tab) can be very difficult to remove in one piece when - as Pete was mentioning - the holes are to small. Some manufacturers fail to increase the drill size for the wider TO-220 pins, they can be very tight with no room to wiggle the lead to break the final solder bridge. Sometimes slightly twisting the lead might do it. Sometimes you have to rock the device up and out of the holes with several heating cycles. ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:58:36 +0100 From: "Rob Jarratt" Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <039201cc0ce0$651033b0$2f309b10$@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert > Sent: 07 May 2011 18:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > > I need to desolder a chopper transistor from a PCB in the PSU of my > > PDP11 so > > that I can test it and if necessary replace it. > > As you are just trying to isolate the device for testing, sometimes it is easier to > open the circuits elsewhere to achieve the isolation. For example, if the > collector goes to an offboard transformer through a connector, then that lead > is easily isolated; the base is probably fed by a resistor and lifting one lead of > the resistor will isolate the base. With 2 of the 3 connections to the transistor > open, it is isolated for testing purposes. > > TO-220 packages (3 leads with tab) can be very difficult to remove in one > piece when - as Pete was mentioning - the holes are to small. Some > manufacturers fail to increase the drill size for the wider TO-220 pins, they > can be very tight with no room to wiggle the lead to break the final solder > bridge. Sometimes slightly twisting the lead might do it. Sometimes you have > to rock the device up and out of the holes with several heating cycles. It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. After sending my request I had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. The contacts look to be intact and even if they are not I will be able to use wires to reconnect the transistor pins. Thanks Rob ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:44:02 +0100 From: Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <8730C5A328D94EE69B0E446A537D6F12 at ANTONIOPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already lifted a track. I'd stop now and practise on something that doesn't matter. Removing something like a 4 pin molex power connector from a dead (recent:-)) hard drive or similar is probably the sort of difficulty you want? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 16:59:36 -0400 From: Patrick Finnegan Subject: IBM 3480 help To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <201105071659.37382.pat at computer-refuge.org> Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not particularly helpful yet. The code the drive displays, immediately after start-up is "CHK 38". Pat -- Patrick Finnegan ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 21:51:31 +0000 From: vintagecoder at aol.com Subject: Re: IBM 3480 help To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <201105072151.p47LpZOo009529 at imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and > was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for > the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not particularly > helpful yet. > > The code the drive displays, immediately after start-up is "CHK 38". > > Pat That's out of my area but a quick check of the 3490 manuals I could find (couldn't find any relevant 3480 doc) does not look good. It says this is a "call your service rep" type of error- the CHK XX codes are apparently undocumented, at least for 3490s. If you can't find a 3480 guide on bitsavers (I just checked and couldn't find one) then this may or may not be worthwhile: http://www.fujitsu.com/downloads/COMP/fcpa/tapes/m2488ce_prod-guide.pdf The only reason I suggest it is Fujitsu has some history of ripping off IBM (they did it with several OS versions and paid over 800 million USD in a settlement) and compatible-hardware manufacturers often try to keep the same error codes to make pubs easier (also by ripping off IBM), so maybe just maybe they are using the same codes as the 3480/90 tape subsystem. See appendix E. for the code listings. Nice piece of hardware btw. IBM's marketing materials say "The A22 control unit is priced at $65,430, and the B22 tape unit, which contains two tape drives, sells for $43,120." Good luck and post back if you find anything. If you don't get any answers from the list or elsewhere (some good places to ask are on IBM-MAIN (you will need to subscribe or nobody will see your posts) and the yahoo hercules groups) email me offline and I'll see if I can find anything. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online Com ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, books, and related doc, | | software and doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390. | | | | Wanted: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA and Solaris (Sparc). | | | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 15:10:13 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: IBM 3480 help To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DC5C345.2090008 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/7/11 1:59 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm attempting to figure out an error code on my IBM 3480-B22 drive, and > was wondering if anyone had access to a manual listing error codes for > the drives. I seem to have a "logic" manual, but that's not > particularly helpful yet. > There are about 8 books in the maint set, I'll see about getting them on line. It was also sold as the DEC TA90/E. I have a couple of volumes up under dec/magtape/ta90 ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 15:27:13 -0700 From: Geoffrey Reed Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: cctalk Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" On 5/7/11 11:44 AM, "arcarlini at iee.org" wrote: > I'd be tempted to suggest that you pick up some scrap boards from > somewhere (old TV/computer from the tip) and practise. > > You want to non-destructively remove this component and you've already > lifted a track. > > I'd stop now and practise on something that doesn't matter. Removing > something like > a 4 pin molex power connector from a dead (recent:-)) hard drive or > similar is > probably the sort of difficulty you want? > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org I'd second that.. And use a good de-soldering tool. I use a Hakko 808 desoldering gun. My hot air rework station has an option for a desoldering attachment but the gun is serving me well. Just change the flux filter regularly and clean it out well. ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 00:55:54 +0100 From: Pete Turnbull Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DC5DC0A.9020207 at dunnington.plus.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 07/05/2011 18:58, Rob Jarratt wrote: > It is indeed a TO220 and I do need to test it. Ah, that ought to be doable with a 40W iron. When I described using my 100W Weller, I was thinking of bigger stuff with metal cans! > After sending my request I > had an idea and took the board to a local jeweller, he was able to remove it > for me by using a very fine drill to drill out the just the pins themselves. I hope those holes weren't plated-through ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 18:09:05 -0700 From: Mark Meiss Subject: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Hello to the cctalk list after a long absence! My wife and I own a small business specializing in vintage computers and electronics, especially 1980s microcomputers and game consoles. We?re in the process of moving from Bloomington, Indiana, out to California, and as part of that move, all of our inventory has to go! Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell everything as a single bulk lot. If you?re a fan of the technology or looking to start your own related business, this is a chance to acquire a mother lode of great old stuff. There are some real treasures included -- we hope that you?ll be able to give these computers a good home. Included are almost 100 systems (Apple, Atari, Commodore, TI, Sinclair, and more); thousands of disks, tapes, and cartridges; over a thousand books and magazines; electronics test equipment; and more. The complete list of stuff is available at http://bit.ly/izaYpw ( https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1JS2fRLSfeOoI27Otf-Zhkl1f84WNZQHwM-jNBkhvvkM ) I can be contacted by email at squunkin at gmail.com, or leave a message on our Google Voice number at (408) 676-6467and I?ll get back to you. (Serious offers only, please -- and feel free to pass the word along to any interested friends!) The sale will go to the best offer from the most reasonable person as quickly as we can manage it. Here are the basic terms and conditions: - We must sell as a single lot and cannot split off individual items. This is not negotiable -- I?m in California, and the inventory is stored in Indiana. (Obviously, we can?t handle returns either.) - This is a LOT of stuff; you will certainly need a U-Haul track or the like. (I?m not a pro at this, but I?d estimate a 20? truck.) - Once the sale has been arranged, I?ll make a trip back to Indiana to help you load up your truck: you?re not on your own. This makes it very important to me to establish a firm pick-up date. I can be flexible about the day of the week. - We cannot guarantee the condition of individual items and must sell as-is: most of this stuff is at least 20 years old. We have always tried to test new equipment as it arrives, and most of the media have been kept in a controlled environment. - Southern Indiana is humid and subject to flooding, and there is a chance that some items may have some moisture damage. If we discover in the process of loading that any items of particular interest to you are damaged, we can adjust the final sale price accordingly. Please let us know about those items in advance! - The list of items we?ve compiled is not exhaustive, but represents a large sample from our inventory database. There?s more. - We currently have around 3-4 dozen WYSE and Falco terminals available, most of which power on. Please let us know ASAP if you want them included -- otherwise, they?ll be heading to recycling on May 14th. - If you have any questions, please ask! I will try to respond to every enquiry with 24 hours. ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 07 May 2011 22:06:52 -0600 From: Richard Subject: Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) To: cctalk Message-ID: In article , Mark Meiss writes: > Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell > everything as a single bulk lot. Good luck with that. Pretty much everything listed there is obtainable incrementally and few people are interested in buying huge lots of things when they could obtain them incrementally. I understand its what's easiest for you, but given the economy its probably better to cater to the buyer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 23:51:17 -0700 From: Mark Meiss Subject: Re: Enormous lot of vintage microcomputer stuff for sale (Bloomington, IN) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Well, yes, I imagine that few people are, but we're hoping for exactly one, and here seems likelier a place than most. (Not to mention that Bloomington isn't so far from Dayton, and the Hamvention is coming right up in a few weeks.) We're not looking for top dollar (the move is a good move), but a chance to try to transfer these things en masse to somebody with an understanding of what they are -- hence the desire to avoid eBay if possible. On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 9:06 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > Mark Meiss writes: > > > Because we are anxious to complete our move quickly, we need to sell > > everything as a single bulk lot. > > Good luck with that. > > Pretty much everything listed there is obtainable incrementally and > few people are interested in buying huge lots of things when they > could obtain them incrementally. > > I understand its what's easiest for you, but given the economy its > probably better to cater to the buyer. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:47:47 +0100 From: Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <865E15B734024AA98E807E829C8F7704 at ANTONIOPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have > to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) I've lifted my fair share of tracks (possibly more, just natural greed I guess). Once or twice I've had to put down wire to make up for my clumsiness, although mostly I've lifted tracks on scrap that I don't care about (I just wanted whatever component it might have been). Antonio arcarlini at iee.org ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 10:57:39 +0100 From: "Rob Jarratt" Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <03ed01cc0d66$5f623a40$1e26aec0$@ntlworld.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 08 May 2011 10:48 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor > > Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > > Don't tell me that you've never lifted a track. If you do I will have > > to conclude that you've never worked on a PCB :-) > > I've lifted my fair share of tracks (possibly more, just natural greed I guess). > > Once or twice I've had to put down wire to make up for my clumsiness, > although mostly I've lifted tracks on scrap that I don't care about (I just wanted > whatever component it might have been). > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it is a little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break in the track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, but I don't recall that happening, and the break seems too wide for the size of bit I was using. Is it possible there might have been a latent track defect that the heat from the iron revealed? Regards Rob ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 08:05:54 -0400 From: "Andrew Lynch" Subject: S-100 EPROM boards are here! To: Message-ID: <6B4661ED29914CC8B690BC223940C2F3 at andrewdesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi! The S-100 EPROM PCBs have arrived! These are updated respins of the S-100 EPROM board from last summer with minor corrections and improvements. The S-100 EPROM board supports a wide variety of EPROMs, EEPROMs, FLASH memories, and Static RAMs in 8 or 16 bit modes. It supports many common 28 pin and 32 pin chips. More information is available at John's S100computers.com website here: http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/PROM%20Board/PROM%20Board.htm The board is $20 plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere. Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away! There are plenty of PCBs so even if you weren't on the waiting list there should be plenty to go around. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I have some S-100 4MB SRAM boards, S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard interface boards, and S-100 Serial IO boards left too in case you'd like to get some of those and save on shipping. ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Sun, 08 May 2011 09:37:15 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: RE: Desoldering a chopper transistor To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4DC6644B.215.F1880 at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 8 May 2011 at 10:57, Rob Jarratt wrote: > And just for the record, I have not actually lifted a track. The track > damage is strange and I am not entirely convinced it was me because it > is a little distance from the pin, perhaps 5mm away and it is a break > in the track. It looks like I could have let the iron slip across it, > but I don't recall that happening, and the break seems too wide for > the size of bit I was using. Is it possible there might have been a > latent track defect that the heat from the iron revealed? Take a close look at the gap. It's not unusual to see board revisions done this way--just a bit of tape on the master negatives to do a cut in a trace. If the edges of the break look smooth and straight under magnification, you most likely have your answer. Do not attempt to bridge gaps such as this! --Chuck ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 12:43:59 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Sun, 8 May 2011 13:02:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Roger Ivie Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed On Sun, 8 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: > > Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was > wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said > processors. I'm pretty certain there used to be one. Osprey, IIRC, built around a J-11. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net End of cctech Digest, Vol 93, Issue 10 ************************************** From pinball at telus.net Mon May 9 13:38:56 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 11:38:56 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <2ef7812efc76a6b6876c7172b285f526.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <2ef7812efc76a6b6876c7172b285f526.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: <4DC834C0.2020204@telus.net> Jeff Walther wrote: >> Date: Sat, 7 May 2011 19:43:10 +0100 (BST) >> From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) >> > > >>> of those pumps for sucking out the molten solder. I also have 2mm solder >>> wick (braid?). >>> >>> I seem to have removed most of the solder from two of the pins, mostly >>> with the pump, the solder wick just does not seem to pick up any >>> solder not >>> >> Thats what I tend to find too. I much prefer the solder sucker (pump). >> > > I have had similar experiences with several brands of desolder braid/wick > but I have also found that the Chemtronics brand always works well for me. > Unfortunately, I have not been able to find it anywhere local and always > must order it from Digi-Key. > > I suspect it is simply a matter of being impregnated with flux, but I'm > not certain. > > Jeff Walther > > > > I've tried the solder wick, but keep going back to my Soldapullt full size pump. I've tried the cheap Chinese copies - they break after only a few dozen uses. My Soldapullts last around ten or so years of almost daily use - thousands of IC socket pins... http://www.edsyn.com/index.php?Mode=piw&pn=AS196 (the real one!) The trick to using these suckers is to NEVER let the desoldering tip touch the soldering iron tip. Hold it at around a 45 degree angle and on the opposite side and about 2mm (1/8") away from the tip. When you release the pump it jumps somewhat and if too close or touching the soldering iron tip it can punch the tip into the PCB and knock the trace loose. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 9 17:10:15 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 15:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110509144413.I44753@shell.lmi.net> > > What is the distance from the center of the spindle to the "directory > > track" (giving myself LOTS of wiggle room) on an 8" disk? Surely radius > > is more important than diameter :-) On Mon, 9 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, most 8" drives were 48tpi, and had 77 cylinders. What I don't know > is the radius of the outside cylinder (which would be track 0 on side 0 > IIRC). It's got to be A little under 4", of course. I don;t have a spare > 8" disk to rip apart and measure the diameter of the magnetic disk > itself, nor do I know how far in track 0 is fro mthe edge of the disk. > Once we know that, obvious places pf the directory are on track 0, track > 1 (allowing track 0 to be used for a bootstrap) and track 38 (in the > middle). Which would be 0, 1/48" and 38/48" in from the position of track 0. Or: Cylinder 0 side 0, with only a sector or two for boot (NS-DOS) Cylinder 1 or 2, side 0 are more common in 8" CP/M like formats than cylinder 0 side 1! In some cases, the DIRectory track is deliberately placed in the same place as it was in for the single-sided format, AND there are more than a few formats where side 0 is used first, and side 1 provides tracks 77 - 153, or tracks 153 - 77 Or: the same people who came up with 1,024,000 bytes per Megabyte (or "35mm equivalent" for focal lengths of lenses on digital cameras) could easily insist on measuring to the first track AFTER the DIRectory ("system overhead doesn't count") Therefore, it is certainly not past the current behaviors of certain clueless lusers to call it (8") a "3.5 inch radius" disk :-) Would you get 6" width of a 5.25" drive if you included the AT mounting rails? Why don't they use the circumferential measurement of the disk? :-) or "square inches"? :-) Do the extra access slots on a "twiggy" diskette give it twice as many tracks? :-) How much truth is there in the "bar napkin" story of how the size was chosen for 5.25" disks? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 9 18:03:03 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 16:03:03 -0700 Subject: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> References: <4DC7347D.7000509@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Congratulations, Dave! I'm looking at the same thing myself, and you're a good role model. :-) Many years ago (13 years of age) I was a ham, but after high school I led too nomadic a lifestyle to maintain the hobby and my license (my highest rating Advanced Class) expired. A few years ago I got the idea of getting back into it and bought an HF rig off eBay, the system I could never afford as a teenager: a Drake R4B/T4XB combination. Unfortunately, the rig looked like it had lived in someone's carport for ten years - one of the few times I've been screwed on eBay - and after some initial work troubleshooting it, I got distracted by other things and it got stacked in a corner behind a DEC something-or-other. So the other day some random neural firing led me to a new bout of nostalgia, and I wandered onto eBay to see if the old Motorola HT220 was still around. I used to work on those back in the late 1970s and thought they were too cool for words. Of course, I could never afford to acquire one and modify it for ham operation (I still had the Advanced Class back then). My 'new' HT220 - already modified for and checked out on 2m - should arrive at the end of the week. Then I need to pick up some crystals, a battery - and a license! Oh, and I started working on the Drake again. I learned that my 'good' scope (HP 1701A) is no longer good, having lost deflection left of center. I pulled out my 'old' scope and learned that my signal generator has a messed up front panel interface - it does what I tell it to but doesn't display the result. So I guess I have to fix some tools. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:25 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OT: ham radio licenses I had a ham license (coded Tech class, KA2UZK) from 1984 to 1994, and was quite active on VHF FM and HF CW during that time. I've missed it quite a bit over the years and have always intended to relicense, but the piles of rules changes gave me pause, as rote memorization isn't really my strong suit. Well, the recent discussion of ham radio licensing motivated me to finally get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days to assimilate the new rules & regs, and registered for the VE test given at the hamfest in Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three exams...Element 2 (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and Element 4 (Extra class). I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time through! And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. The FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was granted an Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. Of I'm still in West Virginia handling family business, while all of my ham gear is in Florida, but my mother (who is house-sitting for me in Florida) was able to ship two of my HTs up here so I'd have something at least. When I have access to my HF gear (Yaesu FT-ONE and FT-920, Heath HW-7, HW-8, and HW-9 QRP rigs, and Heath SB-101) I hope to try out some of the neat new(ish) stuff like PSK31 that came up while I was away. High-tech stuff aside, I'm sure to do some plain old SSB and CW on the HF bands. Anyway, enough of my blather, I'm just proud to have accomplished that and wanted to tell everyone. I'm hoping to catch some of you on the air! -Dave 73's DE AK4HZ -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 9 19:21:41 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 17:21:41 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <201105091502.p49EwqdC003209@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> References: <201105091502.p49EwqdC003209@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: From: vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:02 AM > Wouldn't it be possible to sell a kit containing the complete board and > enclosure, power supply etc. and device drivers, but *not* the OS? I think > most hobbyists wouldn't have a problem getting RT11/RSX whatever on their > own using the hobbyist license and installing it themselves. The hardware > part (and the device drivers) is what most people can't do. You do realize, don't you, that there is no such thing as a hobbyist license for any of the PDP-11 operating systems from DEC/Digital/Mentec? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 9 19:32:57 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 20:32:57 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> Message-ID: <4DC887B9.80601@compsys.to> >Bob Armstrong wrote: >>Jerome Fine (jhfinedp3k at compsys.to) wrote: >>How would device drivers designed for a Qbus or Unibus do disk I/O? >>How would serial ports to a terminal operate? >> >> > > This is the killer with the S-100 plan. I've got a bag of T-11 chips and >had considered doing something like the SBC6120 for a PDP-11, but it's >pointless unless all the peripherals are also PDP-11 compatible. Unless, of >course, you have lots of time on your hands and want to write your own >PDP-11 OS and tools, and that'd take an order of magnitude more time than >designing the hardware. > > You could, if you had the right bits and knew enough about RT11, just >write new device drivers for RT11 and port it to S100 hardware. I'm sure >there are people with enough knowledge to do that, but RT11 is _not free_. >What hobbyists do in their garage is one thing, but any commercial endeavor >would have to be careful about putting their name on that. > > AFAIK there are no "free" OSes that will run on a T11. 2bsd is your only >option, and that'll need at least an F11 CPU. An F11 S-100 card would be a >cool project (I'd buy one!) but it'd be much harder. F11s are a multi-chip >chipset, much less well documented at the hardware pin level, and less >available than T11s. > > There's always the FPGA route, but then the S100 becomes superfluous. You >could fit a whole 11/73, including all the peripherals, into any modern FPGA >without even trying and all you'd need beyond that are the connectors and >level shifters. > But then, what do you do with all that hardware once you get it working? I realize that the fun for hardware addicts (as opposed to software addicts like myself) is to get the system working and running the OS. Is that the end of the process? With software, there always seems to be a bug to be fixed or, especially interesting and even more challenging, an enhancement to design, implement and debug. I remember when I wrote some code for a program that made the program Y3K ready. The OS still does not have the required request to process date information for after 2099 CE, but now the code is there waiting. However, when I was testing the program under an earlier version of the OS, the program crashed. I finally figured out that the Y3K ready requests were handled (actually - and correctly - rejected by the OS) by the current (somewhat recent - only 20 years old) version of the OS, but OS versions that were 25 years old could not handle the Y3K requests - which were not yet in any OS. So those challenges always exist with software. What about hardware after the hardware is finished? Jerome Fine From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Mon May 9 19:47:09 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 17:47:09 -0700 Subject: Thinning the Herd (part2) Message-ID: Thanks everybody for the heartwarming responses,,,and the corresponding requests for "first dibs" on much of the collectibles I will be parting with. :-) I really did not fathom, just how much stuff I have. When you get around to trying to inventory it, a project I started and abandoned several times over the lat few years. It seems a bit overwhelming. Add to the fact that much of the stuff that I thought was "here" or "there" was not in the spot I remember it being. This was no doubt to my dad moving stuff around, forgetting he did, and not telling anybody where he put it. Fortunately, I do not think he threw any hardware away, but I'm afraid some documentation may be lost, or put in an area where it was exposed and damaged by the elements, but It will take a lot more "digging" through literally piles of equipment to find stuff. Something I am not looking forward to in the HOT arizona summers. I have decided to tackle this effort by dealing with Items by brand name and since I have a lot of DEC stuff, it will go first, then move on to HP, then IBM, then the odd stuff. So far I have counted close to 200-250 various DEC qbus boards, some VAX, some PDP. More importantly I have about a dozen BA11/BA22 chassis, a few BA123 , a few other BA4xx chassis. Some stuff I will be selling on Ebay, but I would prefer to sell some of my pdp stuff through the list, and to cut down the amount of shipping I would have to do, I would like to sell a few "complete" pdps in the smaller chassis, I have more than a few lsi-11/2, 11/23 and 11/73 with enough peripheral boards and memory for at least 4-5 units, maybe more. On some of the chasis, like a BA11-M they would be sans any actual disk, others would have a rd OR rx50 drive. If no drive they would at least have the qbus board. Whatever boards and odd things I would have left over would go to anyone who will throw a few dollars my way. Almost all the pdp's can be shipped via UPS, except the BA123. My UniBUS machine, the 11/04 is mounted in the standard dec pdp full-height rack with a 3rd party RX02 floppy and a unique TS07 upright reel-to-reel. The 11/04 works, the RX02 gave a lot of read errors (dirt or dust most likely) and the TV07 is a "project" ,not working, but is complete, the whole system, I'm afraid it would need to be freighted, as I would like, if possible, sell it in one piece. I will also be selling a ISI PDP-MAC, that's a M68K processor on a Qbus quad height board. I think this one has the 10Mhz and about 1MB of memory on board (although I'm not real sure as the cards contained between 128k to 1MB on board) expandable to 4mb) with on board MACSBUG 1.0 firmware, two serial ports and a parallel port, I will use most any qbus peripheral card made for the pdp/vax. I was trying to find a Unix prom that would allow it to run 4.2 BSD and maybe even Netbsd (looking through the M68k source code, the qbus hooks are there!) I do not know what OS will run using the MACSBUG firmware. So would there be interest in doing this? I am not going to set a firm price but more of a "make offer" type of deal (be generous as it goes to the widow and orphan fun...mom) but may set a reserve on some things. For someone who doesn't have a pdp, but was looking for one, or wants to get started with a small one, here's your chance. Be prepared to make your own cables, though, as I cannot find the boxes of DEC cables I once had, and you will need to configure it yourself. Some cards may require you to move a few dip switches or set a few jumpers. I know more than a few have asked for certain things and I'm on it, but it may take time to dig through and find stuff. Cheers Tom P From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon May 9 19:59:13 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 20:59:13 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: <201105091502.p49EwqdC003209@omr-m32.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DC88DE1.9060500@compsys.to> >Rich Alderson wrote: >From: vintagecoder at aol.com >Sent: Monday, May 09, 2011 8:02 AM > >>Wouldn't it be possible to sell a kit containing the complete board and >>enclosure, power supply etc. and device drivers, but *not* the OS? I think >>most hobbyists wouldn't have a problem getting RT11/RSX whatever on their >>own using the hobbyist license and installing it themselves. The hardware >>part (and the device drivers) is what most people can't do. >> >You do realize, don't you, that there is no such thing as a hobbyist license >for any of the PDP-11 operating systems from DEC/Digital/Mentec? > Almost true. And strictly speaking, mostly true. Sometime before 1998, Bob Supnik (a VP at DEC at the time) arranged with Mentec to allow specified versions (and prior) of RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11 to run on an emulator from DEC. The license form from Mentec specified that users were allowed to acquire binary distributions and run them under the DEC emulator. Everything was for non-commercial purposes ONLY. No support of any kind was available from DEC or Mentec. In particular, permission was received from DEC and Mentec (or so I heard) to prepare V05.03 of RT-11 on an RL02 drive and compress it along with other files. That zipped file has been available for download since 1998 for use by hobby users. Neither Mentec nor DEC have complained about the current SIMH being used in place of the DEC emulator and the binary distribution of V05.03 of RT-11 has remained continuously available since 1998. Some individuals feel that SIMH does not qualify as a DEC emulator. However, most hobby users who want to use V05.03 of RT-11 under SIMH don't seem to have a problem. On the other hand, very early versions of the DEC emulator must still exist somewhere and would still qualify. Rich, are you aware of that license form from Mentec which allows specified versions of RSTS/E, RSX-11 and RT-11 to be run under a DEC emulator? Jerome Fine From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 9 20:26:31 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 20:26:31 -0500 Subject: Thinning the Herd (part2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: what would a 11-73 sell for? From chd at chdickman.com Mon May 9 20:40:42 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 21:40:42 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? Message-ID: I have 1 LaserJet IIp and 3 LaserJet IIIp printers. None of them are really usable because the toner cartridges are either out of toner or the images have streaks and blotches. I think all of them are functional electrically and the paper feeding is still OK. It has been 3 years since I last tried one. I could always use an extra printer, so I have to decide if I should get them working or just dump them and get something new when I really need it. Is there a source for GOOD toner cartridges? Google finds a bunch of cartridges, but how many are junk refills? I am willing to pay for good cartridges, but I can't tell good from bad. Are feeding parts available if they start to pull multiple sheets, etc? Are there reputable sources? I know these have a good reputation generally, and I used one for a long time in the '90s. -chuck From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Mon May 9 20:45:00 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 18:45:00 -0700 Subject: Thinning the Herd (part2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what would a 11-73 sell for? > Bare Bones? Economy or a cadillac model? There are a lot of ways you can configure an 11/73. You can have a MFM, ESDI or SCSI Disk, Tape drive? How much memory? How much would you pay ? For what? I will probably put together one or two with different configs, run it up the flagpole and see who salutes~!~ LOL Cheers ~Tom From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 9 21:10:10 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 21:10:10 -0500 Subject: Thinning the Herd (part2) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i got a mti mfm card err i think its mfm not sure what model it is other than one of the chips has a sticker with model mqdx2 on it some sorta mob mlsi-mrv11-c dec m8192 and m8028 On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Tom publix wrote: > On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Adrian Stoness > wrote: > > > what would a 11-73 sell for? > > > > Bare Bones? Economy or a cadillac model? There are a lot of ways you can > configure an 11/73. You can have a MFM, ESDI or SCSI Disk, Tape drive? How > much memory? How much would you pay ? For what? > > I will probably put together one or two with different configs, run it up > the flagpole and see who salutes~!~ LOL > > Cheers > ~Tom > From evan at snarc.net Mon May 9 23:18:56 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 00:18:56 -0400 Subject: Final reminder -- VCF East 7.0 Message-ID: <4DC8BCB0.4050505@snarc.net> One last reminder .... only five days until the Vintage Computer Festival East 7.0 ..... bring your kids, they get in for free! http://www.vintage.org/2011/east http://www.facebook.com/vcfeast7 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 10 00:51:22 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 9 May 2011 22:51:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff Message-ID: Si des purgamentum purgamentum accipietis Noli turbare cuium simia virgas tonitrui Si duo sunt in una camera turpis vento facit, qui sciunt et feci -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Tue May 10 01:24:05 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 02:24:05 -0400 Subject: MARCH computer history library Message-ID: <4DC8DA05.7080802@snarc.net> MARCH (Mid-Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists) will debut part of its vast library of computer history at the VCF East this weekend. The collection includes full runs of the first few years of Byte, Compute, Creative Computing, Dr. Dobb's Journal, SCCS Interface, Interface Age, Kilobaud, and more. We also have the early years of the People's Computer Company newsletter, anthologies of the early years of the West Coast Computer Faire, a variety of machine-specific publications, and early issues of various user group newsletters (some on CD). Not to mention * hundreds * of computer books (and related topics) from the 1940s-1980s and zillions of manuals / user guides. Our full library will be organized later this year. It will be a reading / research library, not a lending library, except by special permission. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 10 02:18:41 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 09:18:41 +0200 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110510071841.GA14303@Update.UU.SE> > Si des purgamentum purgamentum accipietis Do unto others as you would have them do unto you > Noli turbare cuium simia virgas tonitrui Uhm. thundermonkey something > Si duo sunt in una camera turpis vento facit, qui sciunt et feci He who dealt it, smelt it? Btw, did you see my mail regarding the FP6120 or did it get caught in some filter? Cheers, Pontus From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 10 02:53:57 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 00:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <20110510071841.GA14303@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110510071841.GA14303@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Si des purgamentum purgamentum accipietis > > Do unto others as you would have them do unto you Garbage in, garbage out. (If you give garbage, then garbage you shall receive.) >> Noli turbare cuium simia virgas tonitrui > > Uhm. thundermonkey something Do not taunt the dynamite monkey. (Do not annoy the monkey wielding thunder rods) >> Si duo sunt in una camera turpis vento facit, qui sciunt et feci > > He who dealt it, smelt it? If two people are in a room and one of them farts, everyone knows who did it. > Btw, did you see my mail regarding the FP6120 or did it get caught in > some filter? I guess. I haven't seen any emails like that in a while. Could you resend it to dave at 661.org? I need to get things switched over once and for all. This idiocy was a bit easier to accomplish if I started with Spanish instead of English. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bob at jfcl.com Tue May 10 08:48:35 2011 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 06:48:35 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <4DC82A1C.7060201@verizon.net> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> <4DC82A1C.7060201@verizon.net> Message-ID: <006001cc0f18$f5c10080$e1430180$@com> >I have done that and it runs RT out of the box on a T11. Did you build a T-11 system? Can you post more information ? >Forget RT11FB, RSTS or RSX as they will not do well in 24KW. FWIW, RSX-11S will run on an unmapped system. Of course RSX-11S was intended for "embedded" applications and it's not very useful as a general purpose OS. And in theory you can build RSX-11S systems on an RSX=11M or M+ system, but I'm not sure all the stuff you need is part of the standard M/M+ distribution so it might be hard to come up with the necessary files. Didn't at least some DSSI drives, like the RX7x, have embedded T11s that ran RSX-11S? Bob From bob at jfcl.com Tue May 10 08:52:40 2011 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 06:52:40 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: from "Roger Ivie" at May 9, 11 07:55:54 am Message-ID: <006101cc0f19$876bf4e0$9643dea0$@com> > What about the fuzzball? I don't know much about it, but IIRC it's free. >I don' know much about it either, and I've not looked at it for years, I just remembered that there's also TSX-11+. That was originally based on RT too, but they got tired of paying the DEC license fees and just rewrote all the RT11 bits that were necessary to make it work. I think Lyle has secured permission for hobbyists to use TSX, but I don't know the terms. Bob From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 10 09:37:16 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:37:16 -0300 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: Message-ID: >I have 1 LaserJet IIp and 3 LaserJet IIIp printers. None of them are really Trash. They were unusable when new, they are unusable squared now. > I could always use an extra printer, so I have to decide if I should get > them working or just dump them and get something new when I really need > it. If it were a full III, I'd tell you to keep it, it is still a good printer. But IIIP? Trashcan! > Is there a source for GOOD toner cartridges? Google finds a bunch of > cartridges, but how many are junk refills? I am willing to pay for good Make it yourself :) > cartridges, but I can't tell good from bad. Are feeding parts available if > they start to pull multiple sheets, etc? Are there reputable sources? There is a smal solenoid that locks one of the paper pull rollers. This solenoid has a smal foam disk on it that when gets old, it locks the solenoid closed and creates all types of paper feeding problems. It is on the right side of the printer, I believe you can see it with the door opened. Replace the foam disk with something like electric tape and you're set. > I know these have a good reputation generally, and I used one for a long > time in the '90s. I just hate them :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 10 09:48:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:48:47 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> On 5/10/11 10:37 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I have 1 LaserJet IIp and 3 LaserJet IIIp printers. None of them are >> really > > Trash. They were unusable when new, they are unusable squared now. > >> I could always use an extra printer, so I have to decide if I should get >> them working or just dump them and get something new when I really >> need it. > > If it were a full III, I'd tell you to keep it, it is still a good > printer. But IIIP? Trashcan! While I agree that the "P" versions were nowhere near the workhorses of the "full" versions, I've personally found them to be surprisingly reliable for light-duty work. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue May 10 09:40:56 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:40:56 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I have 1 LaserJet IIp and 3 LaserJet IIIp printers. None of them are really > usable because the toner cartridges are either out of toner or the images > have streaks and blotches. I think all of them are functional electrically > and the paper feeding is still OK. It has been 3 years since I last tried > one. > > I could always use an extra printer, so I have to decide if I should get > them working or just dump them and get something new when I really need it. > Personally, I use printers until something big breaks, then I toss them. Unless you can cannibalize another unit for spare parts and the fix is easy, it just isn't worth the time or expense to get them running again. I've found that once something breaks on a printer, it's the start of everything else breaking as well. Especially for the *very* old laser printers - usually the fuser and toner are seperate so that's one more consumable to buy, the rollers loose their grip, the path gets clogged up with paper particles and toner, the power supply starts to go, etc... I'd rather pick up a newer-but-used "business class" printer, like an imageRunner or LaserJet 5 series for a couple of hundred and fix that up than dump the money into a twenty year old machine. From keithvz at verizon.net Tue May 10 11:34:36 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 12:34:36 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> On 5/10/2011 10:48 AM, Alexandre Souza and Dave McGuire wrote: >> If it were a full III, I'd tell you to keep it, it is still a good >> printer. But IIIP? Trashcan! > > While I agree that the "P" versions were nowhere near the workhorses of > the "full" versions, I've personally found them to be surprisingly > reliable for light-duty work. > > -Dave > We ran a III like a dog for years at a company I used to work for. We routinely printed huge documents on it. I think in the 8 years we used it, I think the only real failure, was on a network card. We very occasionally would use HP's "refresher" kit which was basically new rollers, maybe a fusing wire(right term?) and a few odds and ends. I want to say we had 200k pages on it, and only replaced it because the newer printers were faster and had more memory (could handle more complex documents, like big pdfs) The duplexer was not very reliable, but did not get much use. Keith From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 10 11:45:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 12:45:57 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DC96BC5.7010501@neurotica.com> On 5/10/11 12:34 PM, Keith M wrote: > We ran a III like a dog for years at a company I used to work for. We > routinely printed huge documents on it. I think in the 8 years we used > it, I think the only real failure, was on a network card. We very > occasionally would use HP's "refresher" kit which was basically new > rollers, maybe a fusing wire(right term?) and a few odds and ends. Corona wire, most likely, or fuser lamp. But yes, that SX engine is a real workhorse. > I want to say we had 200k pages on it, and only replaced it because the > newer printers were faster and had more memory (could handle more > complex documents, like big pdfs) That seemed to be the only reason most people upgraded to later printers. > The duplexer was not very reliable, but did not get much use. I've never used one of those duplexers. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 10 12:42:09 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 12:42:09 -0500 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 5/10/11, Charles wrote: >Is there a source for GOOD toner cartridges? Google finds a bunch of >cartridges, but how many are junk refills? I am willing to pay for good >cartridges, but I can't tell good from bad. Are feeding parts available if >they start to pull multiple sheets, etc? Are there reputable sources? > >I know these have a good reputation generally, and I used one for a long >time in the '90s. I've had reasonable success (with my LaserJet4M+, a later model) with: http://www2.printerworks.com/ No connection, just satisfied customer. YMMV. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue May 10 12:50:26 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:50:26 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <006001cc0f18$f5c10080$e1430180$@com> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to> <003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com> <4DC82A1C.7060201@verizon.net> <006001cc0f18$f5c10080$e1430180$@com> Message-ID: From: Bob Armstrong Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:49 AM >> Forget RT11FB, RSTS or RSX as they will not do well in 24KW. > FWIW, RSX-11S will run on an unmapped system. Of course RSX-11S was > intended for "embedded" applications and it's not very useful as a general > purpose OS. And in theory you can build RSX-11S systems on an RSX=11M or M+ > system, but I'm not sure all the stuff you need is part of the standard M/M+ > distribution so it might be hard to come up with the necessary files. At least one version of RSX-11M will run on an unmapped system in 28KW. The front end PDP-11/40 on a KL-10 runs RSX-20F, which is very much standard -11M with the exception of the 18-bit sector size in the file system. The -20F developer's kit consisted of a bootable RP06 pack with -11M on it, and all the -11M documentation. There is one slim -20F manual which describes the partition layout. (Damn, damn, damn, I wish I had saved that damned pack from LOTS, but I didn't expect that I would ever be managing those systems again at that time.) > Didn't at least some DSSI drives, like the RX7x, have embedded T11s that > ran RSX-11S? In point of fact, the intent of RSX-11S is that you build on RSX-11M and run on -11S. At least, that's what the documentation for the pair says. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 10 12:49:03 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:49:03 -0300 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> > I want to say we had 200k pages on it, and only replaced it because the > newer printers were faster and had more memory (could handle more complex > documents, like big pdfs) 200K+ pages has mine HP4Plus. With me. Because its counter is in 700K+ range. I do love my HP4Plus :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 10 12:50:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:50:41 -0300 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com><4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> <4DC96BC5.7010501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1E2A6EBA568340E5B89F9DF994DA385F@portajara> >> The duplexer was not very reliable, but did not get much use. > I've never used one of those duplexers. This is the ONLY thing I never found in Brazil for my HP4+. And the thing I most wanted :) From RichA at vulcan.com Tue May 10 12:58:11 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:58:11 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards Message-ID: Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing to part with, or loan? We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our Tops-10 system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in the LP20 are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, so we can't do things like cool suspect delay pots. We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 10 12:59:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:59:59 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: <9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> <9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> Message-ID: <4DC97D1F.4080705@neurotica.com> On 5/10/11 1:49 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I want to say we had 200k pages on it, and only replaced it because >> the newer printers were faster and had more memory (could handle more >> complex documents, like big pdfs) > > 200K+ pages has mine HP4Plus. With me. Because its counter is in 700K+ > range. > > I do love my HP4Plus :) They are WONDERFUL printers! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 10 13:09:43 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:09:43 -0500 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: <4DC97D1F.4080705@neurotica.com> References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> <9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> <4DC97D1F.4080705@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201105101810.p4AIAOXS001364@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:59 PM 5/10/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 5/10/11 1:49 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>200K+ pages has mine HP4Plus. With me. Because its counter is in 700K+ >>range. >> >>I do love my HP4Plus :) > > They are WONDERFUL printers! Hmm, hadn't checked the page count on mine in forever. Datecodes 6/1992, but I've only moved 29,491 pages on my 4mp? Only 59 reams in 19 years? - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 10 13:21:13 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:21:13 -0500 Subject: Terak notebooks Message-ID: <201105101822.p4AIMNaM002006@billY.EZWIND.NET> Among the items from the William Mayberry estate, I've scanned four notebooks into a series of TIFF files. Bill kept engineering notebooks to carefully document his thoughts in designing the Terak, as well as meeting notes with other principals. I'll make these available when I'm finished. Each page filename is 000.TIF, 001.TIF, etc. What's the best tool for converting these to a sensible PDF? LibTiff tiffcp to multipage, then tiff2pdf? I have Windows, Mac and Linux. - John From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 10 13:23:03 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:23:03 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. :-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? Zane At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: >Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing >to part with, or loan? > >We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the >M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our Tops-10 >system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in the LP20 >are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to >see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, so we can't >do things like cool suspect delay pots. > >We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From trag at io.com Tue May 10 13:24:31 2011 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:24:31 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 09 May 2011 10:57:34 -0700 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > On 9 May 2011 at 12:59, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >> ChemWick (which is indeed better than the other brands but this >> applies to the Other brands too) will "dry out" and become much less >> useful If not stored properly. > > That's "Chem-Wik" (tm) and "Soder-Wick" (tm) by Chemtronics. > >> If it does get dried out, dipping it in one of the fancy-pants fluxes >> will Pep it up considerably :-) > > I find that a brief dip of the braid in denatured alcohol helps > considerably (at least with "Soder Wik".) Thank you, Chuck and Tim. I did not know that. When I get home this evening I will put the plastic cover back on my spools of braid and perhaps store them in a ziplock bag as well. Jeff Walther From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 12:40:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 18:40:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Subject: Re: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: <1440E95F4F9304408F505EA3DB78958F08D8F5F0A4@Exchange1.epssecurity.com> from "Kevin Andres" at May 9, 11 08:50:34 am Message-ID: > > As far as the "broken track", with difficult to > remove components, and the lack of an octopus with scope, > an exacto knife slice of track can be used to meter > suspect components without removal. A solder bridge then > repairs the "service trick". Err, no. Quite apart form the fact that I don't like making non-reversable changes if I can avoid it (like cuting tracks), a solder blob is not a reliable way of bridign a track cut. It is much better to solder a wire (I often use awg 30 wire-wrap wire with the insulation removed for logic-level tracks) across the cut. -tony [PS : Please delete bits of the messge that you are not commenting on, like the 1000+ lines of digest that I've just removed] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 12:46:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 18:46:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: ham radio licenses In-Reply-To: <4DC854C5.3060606@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 9, 11 04:55:33 pm Message-ID: > That's the best thing about amateur radio: It has so many facets, That is true of several other hobbies too. It's true of classic computing, certainly. not just as to what machines you are interested im, but also 'facets' like restoring the real hardware, writing emulators, making add-ons., archiving software/manauls, etc, etc, etc. And photography, whcih can include not just taking pictures, but also restoring classic cameras, making a camera from scratch, various unusual chemical processe, making accesories, etc, etc, etc. > something for everyone. I like just plain "operating", as well as > building my own rigs, and (for the benefit of others here, as you > already know this) there are dozens of other facets. Indeed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 12:57:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 18:57:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <20110509144413.I44753@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 9, 11 03:10:15 pm Message-ID: > Or: the same people who came up with 1,024,000 bytes per Megabyte (or > "35mm equivalent" for focal lengths of lenses on digital cameras) could Oh don;t get me startedon that one. It's one of my pet hates. The focal length fo a lens as a simple, optical, maining. And the real value should be quoted, not some 'corrected' value. Around I'v got cameras for a number of film sizes from sub-miniature to medium format. Every one of the lenses, if it's marked at all, is marked with the real focal length. So yes, the 'standard' lens might well be 24mm, 30mm, 35mm, 50 mm, 75mm or 80mm. Thsi does not confuse me... Oh, and the next person who claims that changing the focal length affects perspective is likely ot end up being shown another use for an MPP monorail :-) > easily insist on measuring to the first track AFTER the DIRectory ("system > overhead doesn't count") > > Therefore, it is certainly not past the current behaviors of certain > clueless lusers to call it (8") a "3.5 inch radius" disk :-) > Would you get 6" width of a 5.25" drive if you included the AT mounting > rails? It;s going to be getting towards 6", I think, but the only AT I have set up here is the one I am typing this on, and I don;'t feel like dismantling it to check. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 10 13:08:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:08:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <4DC887B9.80601@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at May 9, 11 08:32:57 pm Message-ID: > But then, what do you do with all that hardware once > you get it working? I realize that the fun for hardware > addicts (as opposed to software addicts like myself) > is to get the system working and running the OS. It's not unheard-of for us hardware types to lose interest in a machine once it will pass disgnostics and boot the OS :-) More seriously,. thre's always more hardware to work on. Yet another perpheral to restore, confiogure, and get running. Or something to build, perhaps a test/maintenance board, or an interface to some more modern machine or device. > > Is that the end of the process? With software, there > always seems to be a bug to be fixed or, especially Unfortunately, old hardware does fail. So even when you've got the machine up and running, it may develop faults that oyu have to trace and repair. Another aspect is figuring out just how it really works. This is not a problem with (older) DEC machines which had excellent techncial manuals explaing the microcode and the circuitry, but it is an issue with soem other manufacutrers. So you trace out schematics, desolder the ROMs, read them out and figure out just what it going on. Yes, I've spent far too many late mights working out just what a particular state machine does... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 10 13:32:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:32:34 -0700 Subject: Desoldering a chopper transistor In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DC92252.14197.9E4C3B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2011 at 13:24, Jeff Walther wrote: > Thank you, Chuck and Tim. I did not know that. When I get home this > evening I will put the plastic cover back on my spools of braid and > perhaps store them in a ziplock bag as well. Probably not a bad idea to store those sealed bags in your freezer... --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 10 13:44:40 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:44:40 +0100 Subject: Terak notebooks In-Reply-To: <201105101822.p4AIMNaM002006@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201105101822.p4AIMNaM002006@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4DC98798.7060501@philpem.me.uk> On 10/05/11 19:21, John Foust wrote: > Each page filename is 000.TIF, 001.TIF, etc. What's the best tool > for converting these to a sensible PDF? LibTiff tiffcp to multipage, > then tiff2pdf? I have Windows, Mac and Linux. Use Imagemagick's convert tool to compress the images with TIFF Group 4 FAX compression if the images are black and white, or one of the lossless compression formats (LZW or ZIP/Deflate) if they're greyscale. Or even easier, save the greyscale images as PNG files, and only save the B&W ones as TIFFs... Then use Tumble to convert to PDF. This is a command-line app which runs under Linux (and should work on OSX too; I had a working Windows port at one point but haven't updated it in years) and takes a directory full of TIFFs and converts them into a PDF. My branch (http://hg.philpem.me.uk/tumble/) adds PNG and JPEG2000 support and a bunch of bug fixes (including the black/white inversion glitch). Building is as simple as grabbing the tarball, then running 'make'. You'll need the following libraries and their development headers installed: libtiff libjpeg netpbm (or whatever provides pbm.h) .. And a working C compiler :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 10 13:55:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 11:55:13 -0700 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: References: <20110509144413.I44753@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at May 9, 11 03:10:15 pm, Message-ID: <4DC927A1.19165.B30AA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 May 2011 at 18:57, Tony Duell wrote: > It;s going to be getting towards 6", I think, but the only AT I have > set up here is the one I am typing this on, and I don;'t feel like > dismantling it to check. Well, the BK501 disks (the first floppy?) were 9"... --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 10 14:17:24 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:17:24 -0500 Subject: "Original" IBM PC In-Reply-To: <4DC927A1.19165.B30AA7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110509144413.I44753@shell.lmi.net> <4DC927A1.19165.B30AA7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: the salvation army bit right off the hop would turn me away from biding due to the fact they are corupt organization that has created public health problems in my city for years and gets away with it cause no one has the balls to make them clean up their act agg! end rant thats a crazy amount wonder if it comes with free delivery to ur door? From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue May 10 14:44:23 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:44:23 -0500 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC99597.2020205@tx.rr.com> On 5/10/2011 1:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> But then, what do you do with all that hardware once >> you get it working? I realize that the fun for hardware >> addicts (as opposed to software addicts like myself) >> is to get the system working and running the OS. > > It's not unheard-of for us hardware types to lose interest in a machine > once it will pass disgnostics and boot the OS :-) > > More seriously,. thre's always more hardware to work on. Yet another > perpheral to restore, confiogure, and get running. Or something to build, > perhaps a test/maintenance board, or an interface to some more modern > machine or device. > >> >> Is that the end of the process? With software, there >> always seems to be a bug to be fixed or, especially > > Unfortunately, old hardware does fail. So even when you've got the > machine up and running, it may develop faults that oyu have to trace and > repair. Didn't you mean fortunately? ;-) > > Another aspect is figuring out just how it really works. This is not a > problem with (older) DEC machines which had excellent techncial manuals > explaing the microcode and the circuitry, but it is an issue with soem > other manufacutrers. So you trace out schematics, desolder the ROMs, read > them out and figure out just what it going on. Yes, I've spent far too > many late mights working out just what a particular state machine does... > > -tony > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 10 14:51:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 12:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: <9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com> <4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net> <9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 May 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I want to say we had 200k pages on it, and only replaced it because the >> newer printers were faster and had more memory (could handle more complex >> documents, like big pdfs) > > 200K+ pages has mine HP4Plus. With me. Because its counter is in 700K+ > range. > > I do love my HP4Plus :) > We've got some HP4000's at work that are great workhorses. That and I can change the READY message to things like, "OUT OF CHEESE" or "INSERT 25 CENTS". The look on people's faces is just priceless. :) I'm really looking forward to the day I figure out how to make the Ricoh copy center show a pong game on the LCD display. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue May 10 15:10:39 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:10:39 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com><4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net><9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> Message-ID: <89115231376B4C2A9A42077ADF557795@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 3:51 PM Subject: Re: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? > On Tue, 10 May 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >>> I want to say we had 200k pages on it, and only replaced it because the >>> newer printers were faster and had more memory (could handle more >>> complex documents, like big pdfs) >> >> 200K+ pages has mine HP4Plus. With me. Because its counter is in 700K+ >> range. >> >> I do love my HP4Plus :) > We've got some HP4000's at work that are great workhorses. > > That and I can change the READY message to things like, "OUT OF CHEESE" or > "INSERT 25 CENTS". The look on people's faces is just priceless. :) > > I'm really looking forward to the day I figure out how to make the Ricoh > copy center show a pong game on the LCD display. :D > > g. I have a nice HP 4si in the basement where it will pretty much stay forever (you need 2 people to move it). Very nice printer for its age with all the decent interfaces of the era installed (Apple, parallel, ethernet, tokenring). All I am missing is the duplexer. Postscript printers were nice to have in the 1990's. I also managed to get a new HP toner for it on ebay for something like $11 shipped a few years back, which is better then using old toners that were repeatedly refilled and leave streaks. I have spare rollers and fusers so it will last till I get bored of it. From geoffr at zipcon.net Tue May 10 15:51:13 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 13:51:13 -0700 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: <89115231376B4C2A9A42077ADF557795@dell8300> Message-ID: On 5/10/11 1:10 PM, "Teo Zenios" wrote: > I have a nice HP 4si in the basement where it will pretty much stay forever > (you need 2 people to move it). Very nice printer for its age with all the > decent interfaces of the era installed (Apple, parallel, ethernet, > tokenring). All I am missing is the duplexer. Postscript printers were nice > to have in the 1990's. I also managed to get a new HP toner for it on ebay > for something like $11 shipped a few years back, which is better then using > old toners that were repeatedly refilled and leave streaks. I have spare > rollers and fusers so it will last till I get bored of it. Locally I almost had a 5SIMX a few years ago until my help in getting it busted their shoulder and I couldn't get another person to help me get it our of the 2nd floor office and down to my subaru :( The person giving it away said it was busted, but the symptoms were about $30 in parts and a couple hours to fix... Had fixed about half a dozen for a local computer recycler in trade for some sparc hardware. From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue May 10 16:44:41 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 14:44:41 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com> Look at: http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at the bottom of the page (for hex). They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you order 10 or more. On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and how > many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. :-( I'd > be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height could be used > in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > Zane > > > > At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing >> to part with, or loan? >> >> We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the >> M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our >> Tops-10 >> system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in the >> LP20 >> are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to >> see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, so we >> can't >> do things like cool suspect delay pots. >> >> We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 10 17:04:23 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 15:04:23 -0700 Subject: Terak notebooks In-Reply-To: <4DC98798.7060501@philpem.me.uk> References: <201105101822.p4AIMNaM002006@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4DC98798.7060501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DC9B667.6070009@bitsavers.org> On 5/10/11 11:44 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Then use Tumble to convert to PDF. This is a command-line app which runs under Linux (and should work on OSX too There was a bug with the program on big-endian machines. Don't know if that was ever fixed. I ended up just running it on a Linux box. This is what I use to create the PDFs on bitsavers. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 10 17:46:10 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 15:46:10 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com> References: , <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Got it covered: I have some (that I bought from Douglas). The Douglas website can be a bit hard to navigate, but the folks there are really nice. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Don North [ak6dn at mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 2:44 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards Look at: http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at the bottom of the page (for hex). They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you order 10 or more. On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and how > many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. :-( I'd > be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height could be used > in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > Zane > > > > At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing >> to part with, or loan? >> >> We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the >> M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our >> Tops-10 >> system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in the >> LP20 >> are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to >> see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, so we >> can't >> do things like cool suspect delay pots. >> >> We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 10 17:49:07 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 15:49:07 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hex height would only work in a PDP-8/a. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 11:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. :-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? Zane At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: >Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing >to part with, or loan? > >We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the >M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our Tops-10 >system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in the LP20 >are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to >see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, so we can't >do things like cool suspect delay pots. > >We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 10 18:47:46 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 16:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Terak notebooks In-Reply-To: <4DC9B667.6070009@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "May 10, 11 03:04:23 pm" Message-ID: <201105102347.p4ANllcT013968@floodgap.com> > There was a bug with the program on big-endian machines. Don't know if > that was ever fixed. Doesn't look like it: http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ which is a shame, the tool sounds useful. I might try fixing that myself on Mac OS X PPC. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue May 10 18:58:50 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 00:58:50 +0100 Subject: Terak notebooks In-Reply-To: <201105102347.p4ANllcT013968@floodgap.com> References: <201105102347.p4ANllcT013968@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DC9D13A.8090202@philpem.me.uk> On 11/05/11 00:47, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> There was a bug with the program on big-endian machines. Don't know if >> that was ever fixed. > > Doesn't look like it: > > http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ > > which is a shame, the tool sounds useful. I might try fixing that myself > on Mac OS X PPC. If you want to CC the patch to me, I'll make sure it goes into my branch/fork/whatever you want to call it. Does anyone know what the symptoms of the bug are? I've got a couple of ARM boards here I could probably test with, though I have no idea if they're configured for BE or LE... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 10 20:59:28 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 20:59:28 -0500 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com> References: <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <20110511015928.GM22231@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 02:44PM -0700), Don North wrote: > > Look at: > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at > the bottom of the page (for hex). > They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you > order 10 or more. Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or something similar comes together, add me to the list. Chris > > On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and > >how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. > >:-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height > >could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > > >Zane > > > > > > > >At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > >>to part with, or loan? > >> > >>We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > >>M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of > >>our Tops-10 > >>system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in > >>the LP20 > >>are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > >>see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, > >>so we can't > >>do things like cool suspect delay pots. > >> > >>We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 10 21:47:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 22:47:51 -0400 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: <20110511015928.GM22231@n0jcf.net> References: <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com> <20110511015928.GM22231@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DC9F8D7.5080307@neurotica.com> On 5/10/11 9:59 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Look at: >> http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at >> the bottom of the page (for hex). >> They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you >> order 10 or more. > > Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? > Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. > > I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or > something similar comes together, add me to the list. I'm in, but not for a couple of months. It'll probably take that long to get one together. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue May 10 19:48:15 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 20:48:15 -0400 Subject: And then there were three.. Message-ID: Through a generous donation the Rhode Island Computer Museum now has three PDP-8/S systems. The first PDP-8/S is a rack mount, S/N 517, and was donated earlier this year. It is operational, but still needs some more testing to insure that everything works OK. It does run FOCAL and Fortran, so I suspect that everything is OK. The second PDP-8/S is a desktop, S/N 857. The third PDP-8/S is a rack mount, S/N 537. Both were donated today. Both of these systems will need extensive cleaning and restoration. The rack mount system came with an OMD8S memory/data-break expansion chassis, S/N 96. The OMD8/S only has a single 4 KW core plane installed. During the week I will post pictures and an inventory of the two recent dontations on the RICM Warehouse WWW page. -- Michael Thompson From trenchdweller at att.net Tue May 10 21:18:59 2011 From: trenchdweller at att.net (Paul Popelka) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:18:59 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards Message-ID: <002f01cc0f81$ca28c890$6563a8c0@geek> Douglas Electronics lists these as available. Look here: http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html near the bottom of the page. But, ..... you need to buy 10. Maybe you could by a double and a quad and use them together. You only need to buy 1 of each of those. Paul From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 11 00:46:33 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 00:46:33 -0500 Subject: And then there were three.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: nice On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > Through a generous donation the Rhode Island Computer Museum now has > three PDP-8/S systems. > > The first PDP-8/S is a rack mount, S/N 517, and was donated earlier > this year. It is operational, but still needs some more testing to > insure that everything works OK. It does run FOCAL and Fortran, so I > suspect that everything is OK. > > The second PDP-8/S is a desktop, S/N 857. The third PDP-8/S is a rack > mount, S/N 537. Both were donated today. Both of these systems will > need extensive cleaning and restoration. The rack mount system came > with an OMD8S memory/data-break expansion chassis, S/N 96. The OMD8/S > only has a single 4 KW core plane installed. > > During the week I will post pictures and an inventory of the two > recent dontations on the RICM Warehouse WWW page. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 11 01:04:15 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 23:04:15 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: <20110511015928.GM22231@n0jcf.net> References: <4DC9B1C9.60900@mindspring.com>,<20110511015928.GM22231@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: I didn't get response to email either, so I called them, and they were very nice folks. I think they have a weird email distribution protocol. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist [chrise at pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 02:44PM -0700), Don North wrote: > > Look at: > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at > the bottom of the page (for hex). > They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you > order 10 or more. Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or something similar comes together, add me to the list. Chris > > On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and > >how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. > >:-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height > >could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > > >Zane > > > > > > > >At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > >>to part with, or loan? > >> > >>We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > >>M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of > >>our Tops-10 > >>system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in > >>the LP20 > >>are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > >>see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, > >>so we can't > >>do things like cool suspect delay pots. > >> > >>We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > > > > -- Chris Elmquist From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed May 11 01:20:35 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 07:20:35 +0100 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <006001cc0f18$f5c10080$e1430180$@com> References: <6EE585DB-75DF-4651-913A-2186369CC94D@colourfull.com> <4DC75146.5060306@compsys.to><003601cc0e57$24228f10$6c67ad30$@com><4DC82A1C.7060201@verizon.net> <006001cc0f18$f5c10080$e1430180$@com> Message-ID: <36BDE41E23F84F71AF957429CEA72C93@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Can anybody explain how the Mentec boards fit into all of this. My understanding was they were the next generation of PDP11. There still seems to be a mystery around what happened to the rights to PDP11 they held. I have seen a recent reference to them having been sold to an unnamed American company who would quote 'Make them available'. Can anybody solve the mystery of what actually happened? ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Armstrong Sent: 10 May 2011 14:49 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'Allison' Subject: RE: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? >I have done that and it runs RT out of the box on a T11. Did you build a T-11 system? Can you post more information ? >Forget RT11FB, RSTS or RSX as they will not do well in 24KW. FWIW, RSX-11S will run on an unmapped system. Of course RSX-11S was intended for "embedded" applications and it's not very useful as a general purpose OS. And in theory you can build RSX-11S systems on an RSX=11M or M+ system, but I'm not sure all the stuff you need is part of the standard M/M+ distribution so it might be hard to come up with the necessary files. Didn't at least some DSSI drives, like the RX7x, have embedded T11s that ran RSX-11S? Bob From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed May 11 08:23:59 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:23:59 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Message-ID: > Can anybody explain how the Mentec boards fit into all of this. > My understanding was they were the next generation of PDP11. The early Mentec boards had real DEC J-11's and onboard memory And serial ports (not too conceptually different than 11/53's or 11/93's). This spans the M70 through M100. Toward the end Of this era a big crimp was that J-11's were becoming unavailable (even via Clever routes like removal from old HSC's). Later Mentec boards (after J-11's dried up completely) went to high density TI bitslices and then custom ASICs. This is the M11 and M1. Mentec was all Q-bus. (AFAICT). As the Q-bus peripheral market dried up in The late 90's I remember some talk amongst the Mentec guys of making a M11 or M1 with onboard MSCP-compatible controller for ATA or SCSI drives but I don't think this ever got off the ground. Others made J11 CPU boards too for Q-bus, Unibus, ISA bus, etc. And there were others who sold DEC-compatible CPU's using bitslice and other higher integration techniques (e.g. QED/Quickware). The Mentec and others' main selling points, were cheaper prices and higher Levels of integration on the CPU board (thus reducing total system price). Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 11 09:04:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 10:04:23 -0400 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: <002f01cc0f81$ca28c890$6563a8c0@geek> References: <002f01cc0f81$ca28c890$6563a8c0@geek> Message-ID: <4DCA9767.8070707@neurotica.com> On 5/10/11 10:18 PM, Paul Popelka wrote: > Douglas Electronics lists these as available. Look here: > > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > near the bottom of the page. > > But, ..... you need to buy 10. > > Maybe you could by a double and a quad and use them together. You only need > to buy 1 of each of those. I see no reason why that wouldn't work. I've used two duals side-by-side as a quad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Wed May 11 09:06:49 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:06:49 -0500 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110511140649.GA21661@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 11:04PM -0700), Ian King wrote: > I didn't get response to email either, so I called them, and they were very nice folks. I think they have a weird email distribution protocol. -- Ian OK. Roger that. I was hoping to get them to offer some pictures of their various prototype boards too as I am interested in those as well but find it hard to visualize what the hole patterns and other routing really are on them. Chris > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist [chrise at pobox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:59 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: Rich Alderson > Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards > > On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 02:44PM -0700), Don North wrote: > > > > Look at: > > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at > > the bottom of the page (for hex). > > They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you > > order 10 or more. > > Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? > Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. > > I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or > something similar comes together, add me to the list. > > Chris > > > > > On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and > > >how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. > > >:-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height > > >could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > > > > >Zane > > > > > > > > > > > >At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: > > >>Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > > >>to part with, or loan? > > >> > > >>We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > > >>M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of > > >>our Tops-10 > > >>system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in > > >>the LP20 > > >>are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > > >>see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, > > >>so we can't > > >>do things like cool suspect delay pots. > > >> > > >>We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed May 11 10:16:05 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 11:16:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google Lisa List Message-ID: Does anyone know who owns this list and how to get in touch with them? I joined last month, made about three totally innocuous postings and found myself banned at the next attempt to sign in. Google, in their infinite wisdom, gives you no means to find out if it's a mistake, appeal to the owner, or even get an explanation for why it's occurred! I sent a message to the posting address with no response. I had been given the name of "lowenddan at gmail.com" as list owner, but cannot get any response from that address either. Is there something I should know about becoming worthy of Lisa List membership? Perhaps a secret handshake I've overlooked? I contacted a couple of members privately, and both were utterly baffled as to what the motivation may have been. I'm still operating on the assumption that this is a software glitch or mistake. If I've been thrown off as a deliberate action, then I think it's common courtesy for the list owner to at least explain why this occurred. Steve -- From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Wed May 11 13:13:41 2011 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 20:13:41 +0200 Subject: AW: cctalk Digest, Vol 93, Issue 17 -- Unibus Extender Cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Somebody told us, that this company didn't reponse to eMails, and so I try out. I get this answer within 24 h: Hi Gerhard, Yes, you can order DEC handles and cards through me. The handles only come in white. They are .55 each. Let me know the part numbers you are interested in, and I will give you current pricing and availability. Best Regards, Claire Eichner ________________________________ Claire Eichner, Office Manager Douglas Electronics, Inc. Tel: +1 (510) 483-8770 x20 Fax: +1 (510) 483-6453 E-mail: claire.eichner at douglas.com Problem solved? With best regards Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Mittwoch, 11. Mai 2011 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 93, Issue 17 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Unibus extender cards (Dave McGuire) 2. And then there were three.. (Michael Thompson) 3. Re: Unibus extender cards (Paul Popelka) 4. Re: And then there were three.. (Adrian Stoness) 5. RE: Unibus extender cards (Ian King) 6. RE: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? (Rod Smallwood) 7. Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? (Shoppa, Tim) 8. Re: Unibus extender cards (Dave McGuire) 9. Re: Unibus extender cards (Chris Elmquist) 10. Google Lisa List (Steven Hirsch) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 22:47:51 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DC9F8D7.5080307 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/10/11 9:59 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Look at: >> http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at >> the bottom of the page (for hex). >> They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you >> order 10 or more. > > Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? > Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. > > I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or > something similar comes together, add me to the list. I'm in, but not for a couple of months. It'll probably take that long to get one together. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 20:48:15 -0400 From: Michael Thompson Subject: And then there were three.. To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Through a generous donation the Rhode Island Computer Museum now has three PDP-8/S systems. The first PDP-8/S is a rack mount, S/N 517, and was donated earlier this year. It is operational, but still needs some more testing to insure that everything works OK. It does run FOCAL and Fortran, so I suspect that everything is OK. The second PDP-8/S is a desktop, S/N 857. The third PDP-8/S is a rack mount, S/N 537. Both were donated today. Both of these systems will need extensive cleaning and restoration. The rack mount system came with an OMD8S memory/data-break expansion chassis, S/N 96. The OMD8/S only has a single 4 KW core plane installed. During the week I will post pictures and an inventory of the two recent dontations on the RICM Warehouse WWW page. -- Michael Thompson ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 19:18:59 -0700 From: "Paul Popelka" Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards To: Message-ID: <002f01cc0f81$ca28c890$6563a8c0 at geek> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Douglas Electronics lists these as available. Look here: http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html near the bottom of the page. But, ..... you need to buy 10. Maybe you could by a double and a quad and use them together. You only need to buy 1 of each of those. Paul ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 00:46:33 -0500 From: Adrian Stoness Subject: Re: And then there were three.. To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 nice On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > Through a generous donation the Rhode Island Computer Museum now has > three PDP-8/S systems. > > The first PDP-8/S is a rack mount, S/N 517, and was donated earlier > this year. It is operational, but still needs some more testing to > insure that everything works OK. It does run FOCAL and Fortran, so I > suspect that everything is OK. > > The second PDP-8/S is a desktop, S/N 857. The third PDP-8/S is a rack > mount, S/N 537. Both were donated today. Both of these systems will > need extensive cleaning and restoration. The rack mount system came > with an OMD8S memory/data-break expansion chassis, S/N 96. The OMD8/S > only has a single 4 KW core plane installed. > > During the week I will post pictures and an inventory of the two > recent dontations on the RICM Warehouse WWW page. > > -- > Michael Thompson > ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 23:04:15 -0700 From: Ian King Subject: RE: Unibus extender cards To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: Rich Alderson Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I didn't get response to email either, so I called them, and they were very nice folks. I think they have a weird email distribution protocol. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist [chrise at pobox.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:59 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Cc: Rich Alderson Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 02:44PM -0700), Don North wrote: > > Look at: > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at > the bottom of the page (for hex). > They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you > order 10 or more. Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or something similar comes together, add me to the list. Chris > > On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and > >how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. > >:-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height > >could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > > >Zane > > > > > > > >At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > >>to part with, or loan? > >> > >>We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > >>M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of > >>our Tops-10 > >>system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in > >>the LP20 > >>are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > >>see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, > >>so we can't > >>do things like cool suspect delay pots. > >> > >>We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > > > > -- Chris Elmquist ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 07:20:35 +0100 From: "Rod Smallwood" Subject: RE: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" Message-ID: <36BDE41E23F84F71AF957429CEA72C93 at RODSDEVSYSTEM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Can anybody explain how the Mentec boards fit into all of this. My understanding was they were the next generation of PDP11. There still seems to be a mystery around what happened to the rights to PDP11 they held. I have seen a recent reference to them having been sold to an unnamed American company who would quote 'Make them available'. Can anybody solve the mystery of what actually happened? ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Armstrong Sent: 10 May 2011 14:49 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Cc: 'Allison' Subject: RE: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? >I have done that and it runs RT out of the box on a T11. Did you build a T-11 system? Can you post more information ? >Forget RT11FB, RSTS or RSX as they will not do well in 24KW. FWIW, RSX-11S will run on an unmapped system. Of course RSX-11S was intended for "embedded" applications and it's not very useful as a general purpose OS. And in theory you can build RSX-11S systems on an RSX=11M or M+ system, but I'm not sure all the stuff you need is part of the standard M/M+ distribution so it might be hard to come up with the necessary files. Didn't at least some DSSI drives, like the RX7x, have embedded T11s that ran RSX-11S? Bob ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:23:59 -0400 From: "Shoppa, Tim" Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Can anybody explain how the Mentec boards fit into all of this. > My understanding was they were the next generation of PDP11. The early Mentec boards had real DEC J-11's and onboard memory And serial ports (not too conceptually different than 11/53's or 11/93's). This spans the M70 through M100. Toward the end Of this era a big crimp was that J-11's were becoming unavailable (even via Clever routes like removal from old HSC's). Later Mentec boards (after J-11's dried up completely) went to high density TI bitslices and then custom ASICs. This is the M11 and M1. Mentec was all Q-bus. (AFAICT). As the Q-bus peripheral market dried up in The late 90's I remember some talk amongst the Mentec guys of making a M11 or M1 with onboard MSCP-compatible controller for ATA or SCSI drives but I don't think this ever got off the ground. Others made J11 CPU boards too for Q-bus, Unibus, ISA bus, etc. And there were others who sold DEC-compatible CPU's using bitslice and other higher integration techniques (e.g. QED/Quickware). The Mentec and others' main selling points, were cheaper prices and higher Levels of integration on the CPU board (thus reducing total system price). Tim. ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 10:04:23 -0400 From: Dave McGuire Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4DCA9767.8070707 at neurotica.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 5/10/11 10:18 PM, Paul Popelka wrote: > Douglas Electronics lists these as available. Look here: > > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html > > near the bottom of the page. > > But, ..... you need to buy 10. > > Maybe you could by a double and a quad and use them together. You only need > to buy 1 of each of those. I see no reason why that wouldn't work. I've used two duals side-by-side as a quad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 09:06:49 -0500 From: Chris Elmquist Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , Rich Alderson Message-ID: <20110511140649.GA21661 at n0jcf.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 11:04PM -0700), Ian King wrote: > I didn't get response to email either, so I called them, and they were very nice folks. I think they have a weird email distribution protocol. -- Ian OK. Roger that. I was hoping to get them to offer some pictures of their various prototype boards too as I am interested in those as well but find it hard to visualize what the hole patterns and other routing really are on them. Chris > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chris Elmquist [chrise at pobox.com] > Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:59 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Cc: Rich Alderson > Subject: Re: Unibus extender cards > > On Tuesday (05/10/2011 at 02:44PM -0700), Don North wrote: > > > > Look at: > > http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html at > > the bottom of the page (for hex). > > They will still build them for you, at $100 a pop as long as you > > order 10 or more. > > Are they still in business? If so, perhaps they do not do it by email? > Numerous email to them from here have gone unanswered. > > I'm another guy needing Unibus extender board(s) so if a group buy or > something similar comes together, add me to the list. > > Chris > > > > > On 5/10/2011 11:23 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >One has to wonder what a production run of cards might cost, and > > >how many people would be interested in them. I don't have any. > > >:-( I'd be more interested in dual and quad height. Hex height > > >could be used in a PDP-8 as well, couldn't they? > > > > > >Zane > > > > > > > > > > > >At 10:58 AM -0700 5/10/11, Rich Alderson wrote: > > >>Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > > >>to part with, or loan? > > >> > > >>We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > > >>M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of > > >>our Tops-10 > > >>system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). It turns out that the other cards in > > >>the LP20 > > >>are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > > >>see where things are going wrong. We have no Unibus extenders, > > >>so we can't > > >>do things like cool suspect delay pots. > > >> > > >>We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) -- Chris Elmquist ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 11:16:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Steven Hirsch Subject: Google Lisa List To: Classic Computers Mailing List Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Does anyone know who owns this list and how to get in touch with them? I joined last month, made about three totally innocuous postings and found myself banned at the next attempt to sign in. Google, in their infinite wisdom, gives you no means to find out if it's a mistake, appeal to the owner, or even get an explanation for why it's occurred! I sent a message to the posting address with no response. I had been given the name of "lowenddan at gmail.com" as list owner, but cannot get any response from that address either. Is there something I should know about becoming worthy of Lisa List membership? Perhaps a secret handshake I've overlooked? I contacted a couple of members privately, and both were utterly baffled as to what the motivation may have been. I'm still operating on the assumption that this is a software glitch or mistake. If I've been thrown off as a deliberate action, then I think it's common courtesy for the list owner to at least explain why this occurred. Steve -- End of cctalk Digest, Vol 93, Issue 17 ************************************** From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 11 14:18:08 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:18:08 -0500 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > to part with, or loan? > > We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our Tops-10 > system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). ?It turns out that the other cards in the LP20 > are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > see where things are going wrong. ?We have no Unibus extenders, so we can't > do things like cool suspect delay pots. > > We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 11 14:23:45 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 14:23:45 -0500 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I used to use a dual and a quad for a hex when in the field. I have a W9044 hex here you can borrow, but I think it is set up for VAX boards. I have all the others, but they are still in storage. Paul On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing > to part with, or loan? > > We have created a printer interface card (based one the last rev of the > M8571 plus all relevant ECOs) for an LP20 in the front end of our Tops-10 > system (a DECSYSTEM-2065). ?It turns out that the other cards in the LP20 > are not entirely defect free, so we need to hook up a logic analyzer to > see where things are going wrong. ?We have no Unibus extenders, so we can't > do things like cool suspect delay pots. > > We'd really prefer not to have to try building these. :-) > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu May 12 18:03:52 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 16:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: NSC800 Microprocessor Family Databook (1985) Message-ID: I have a databook from National Semiconductor for the NSC800 family of microprocessor stuff dated 1985. Free for shipping from California. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu May 12 16:59:04 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 22:59:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: latin stuff Message-ID: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> My latin isn't that good. I only know a handful of short well-known phrases/sayings: Canem canem edit Carp? deum Carp? noctum et cetera mea culpa Lame I know. Does anyone know of any good books for learning latin? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 6:51 AM Subject: latin stuff > > Si des purgamentum purgamentum accipietis > > Noli turbare cuium simia virgas tonitrui > > Si duo sunt in una camera turpis vento facit, qui sciunt et feci > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From shumaker at att.net Thu May 12 15:46:36 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 13:46:36 -0700 Subject: HP 36" Pen plotter In CA Message-ID: <4DCC472C.3070308@att.net> ISTR someone looking for a vintage HP penplotter recently... FYI: There is an HP DraftMaster II 36" pen plotter listed on CL (San Francisco Bay Area) for $325. steve From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 12 02:01:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 02:01:28 -0500 Subject: new here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ^^txs i'll have to look through these drawings i found tonight from taking a trip back to the place where this unit came from http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/228/2dec.jpg http://imageshack.us/m/21/7530/1dec.jpg From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu May 12 00:51:40 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 06:51:40 +0100 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks that's very interesting. So what happened to all of this 11-Clone hardware and who has the rights to RSX, RT11, and RSTS? Can a PDP-11 be done in FGPA or some other programmable logic solution? The only thing would be difficult to reproduce would be the edge connector sockets. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim Sent: 11 May 2011 14:24 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? > Can anybody explain how the Mentec boards fit into all of this. > My understanding was they were the next generation of PDP11. The early Mentec boards had real DEC J-11's and onboard memory And serial ports (not too conceptually different than 11/53's or 11/93's). This spans the M70 through M100. Toward the end Of this era a big crimp was that J-11's were becoming unavailable (even via Clever routes like removal from old HSC's). Later Mentec boards (after J-11's dried up completely) went to high density TI bitslices and then custom ASICs. This is the M11 and M1. Mentec was all Q-bus. (AFAICT). As the Q-bus peripheral market dried up in The late 90's I remember some talk amongst the Mentec guys of making a M11 or M1 with onboard MSCP-compatible controller for ATA or SCSI drives but I don't think this ever got off the ground. Others made J11 CPU boards too for Q-bus, Unibus, ISA bus, etc. And there were others who sold DEC-compatible CPU's using bitslice and other higher integration techniques (e.g. QED/Quickware). The Mentec and others' main selling points, were cheaper prices and higher Levels of integration on the CPU board (thus reducing total system price). Tim. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed May 11 23:49:01 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 00:49:01 -0400 Subject: EPITEK IC Chips? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DCB66BD.10503@atarimuseum.com> I have a daughtercard on two of my Mindset computers with a 24pin IC on them marked EPITEK.... anybody ever heard of these company or know of anything about a video IC chip or encoder they made? Curt From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 11 21:55:20 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 20:55:20 -0600 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thought I saw one on ebay recently.... -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chd at chdickman.com Wed May 11 19:57:40 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 20:57:40 -0400 Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Message-ID: This thread begs the perennial question: What is the status of Mentec Inc? Who owns rights to the PDP-11 and the Digital Equipment operating system for that architecture? Some on the list have acknowledged PDP-11 related contact with Mentec in the recent past. If I was a licensed user of RT-11 and I wanted to change the terms of the license, how would I do that? I have no direct knowledge of Mentec so I did some online searching, below are my results. -chuck ------------------------ Some Googling shows: Mentec Inc. 13 Hampshire Drive Hudson, NH?03051 United States Phone: 603-883-7711 Fax: 603-883-7799 www.mentec.com Phone is disconnected. Link goes back to Mentec International in Ireland which I think was the parent of Mentec Inc. ------------------------ A search of corporations in New Hampshire finds this record: Date: 5/11/2011 Filed Documents (Annual Report History, View Images, etc.) Business Name History Name Name Type MENTEC, INC. Legal MENTEC, INC. Home State Corporation - Foreign - Information Business ID: 277927 Status: Admin. Suspension Entity Creation Date: 10/9/1997 Dissolve Date: 11/30/1998 State of Business.: DE Principal Office Address: % WINIFRED S GILL 20 INDUSTRIAL PK DR NASHUA NH 03062 Principal Mailing Address: No Address Last Annual Report Filed Date: Last Annual Report Filed: 0 Registered Agent Agent Name: Gill, Winifred Office Address: 20 INDUSTRIAL PK DR NASHUA NH 03062 Mailing Address: ------------------------ The two addresses are about 3 miles apart. ------------------------ Another entity at: DAYBREAK SOFTWARE INC 20 INDUSTRIAL PK DR NASHUA NH 03062 Which seems to still exist: http://www.daybreak-sw.com/ ------------------------ The building at: 13 Hampshire Drive Hudson, NH 03051 It is half occupied and the rest is available for rent. At least part of the address is a printing company. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed May 11 17:40:08 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 10:40:08 +1200 Subject: Google Lisa List References: Message-ID: <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz> Hi Steve, I've been a member of that list since early March, having registered when I was working on my Lisas. I just trawled through my old emails to see if I could find anyone relevant but I couldn't find any sign of a registration letter or anyone who specifically welcomed me as the moderator. I have a feeling I might have just registered on the list site. I've found people on the list to be very helpful and friendly. I saw your posts there and they looked entirely innocuous. I can only think there has been some kind of mistake or glitch. I wonder if the moderator is ok? Seeing Rick Hason's passing (Club 100) makes one realise that key members of a community can disappear from time to time. Terry Stewart (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 3:16 AM Subject: Google Lisa List > Does anyone know who owns this list and how to get in touch with them? I > joined last month, made about three totally innocuous postings and found > myself banned at the next attempt to sign in. Google, in their infinite > wisdom, gives you no means to find out if it's a mistake, appeal to the > owner, or even get an explanation for why it's occurred! > > I sent a message to the posting address with no response. I had been > given the name of "lowenddan at gmail.com" as list owner, but cannot get any > response from that address either. > > Is there something I should know about becoming worthy of Lisa List > membership? Perhaps a secret handshake I've overlooked? I contacted a > couple of members privately, and both were utterly baffled as to what the > motivation may have been. > > I'm still operating on the assumption that this is a software glitch or > mistake. If I've been thrown off as a deliberate action, then I think > it's common courtesy for the list owner to at least explain why this > occurred. > > Steve > > > -- > > From RichA at vulcan.com Wed May 11 17:38:50 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 15:38:50 -0700 Subject: Unibus extender cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Paul Anderson Sent: Wednesday, May 11, 2011 12:24 PM > On Tue, May 10, 2011 at 12:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Does anyone have hex-height Unibus extender cards they would be willing >> to part with, or loan? > I used to use a dual and a quad for a hex when in the field. I have a > W9044 hex here you can borrow, but I think it is set up for VAX > boards. I have all the others, but they are still in storage. My thanks to Zane Healy, Don North, Chris Elmquist, Paul Popelka, Dave McGuire, and Paul Anderson, as well as to the two private responses I received. As it turns out, Ian (who's been out sick or lecturing at UWash for the last week or so) had some in his personal collection, and dropped off a couple at the office last night. (I had asked on the list because he wasn't around when our colleague noted that he needed them to debug his VM8571 and the other LP20 boards, so we had no idea he had them. :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed May 11 17:29:05 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 18:29:05 -0400 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 9, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I have 1 LaserJet IIp and 3 LaserJet IIIp printers. None of them are really > usable because the toner cartridges are either out of toner or the images > have streaks and blotches. I think all of them are functional electrically > and the paper feeding is still OK. It has been 3 years since I last tried > one. > > I could always use an extra printer, so I have to decide if I should get > them working or just dump them and get something new when I really need it. > > Is there a source for GOOD toner cartridges? Google finds a bunch of > cartridges, but how many are junk refills? I am willing to pay for good > cartridges, but I can't tell good from bad. Are feeding parts available if > they start to pull multiple sheets, etc? Are there reputable sources? > > I know these have a good reputation generally, and I used one for a long > time in the '90s. > > -chuck > I wouldn't reccomend using any of those for "real" usage, but I wouldn't scrap them either. Pick the printer in the best cosmetic and mechanical condition and use the others as parts machines. The IIp and IIIp were great little compact lasers and should make a great addition to any sort of late 16-bit/early 32-bit home computer setup you might have. New old stock toner is still available from a few places on Amazon and it's not too expensive... yet. Assuming you don't plan on using your "historic desktop" too much, a couple of toner cartridges could last you 10 or more years. From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed May 11 14:39:12 2011 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 12:39:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Seeking Teletype KSR-35 for Internet Heritage Site and Archive Message-ID: The Internet Heritage Site and Archive is seeking a Teletype model KSR-35 for their restoration project. They are re-creating the ARPA lab at 3420 Boelter Hall at UCLA from where the first internet message ("lo") was sent. Please see additional information below, and visit the website for more information about this excellent project: http://internethistory.ucla.edu/ Reply-to: Brad Fidler -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 12:14:11 -0700 From: Brad Fidler To: Sellam Ismail Subject: Reaching out to the collector community Hi Sellam, Thank you again for all your help with this. Below is a blurb that you could post. All best, Brad --- There is a project underway to recreate the UCLA ARPANET lab as it stood when it first connected with SRI in 1969. We are interested in borrowing or purchasing a *Teletype KSR-35*, to display in the original space of the ARPANET lab at 3420 Boelter Hall. I invite you to read more about our project at http://internethistory.ucla.edu/p/mission.html . Please get in touch with me at fidler at internethistory.ucla.edu if you can help us in any way. Sincerely, Brad Fidler From cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org Wed May 11 16:35:42 2011 From: cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org (cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 23:35:42 +0200 Subject: Hello Son, I think you will find this Message-ID: <7558505604.M07H7ZNA665682@gqxpuolbb.xyymo.info> WHAT A GREAT IDEA! Ring anytime 1-801-461-5094 We provide a concept that will allow anyone with sufficient work experience to obtain a fully verifiable University Degree. Bachelors, Masters or even a Doctorate. Think of it, within four to six weeks, you too could be a college graduate. Many people share the same frustration, they are doing the work of the person that has the degree and the person that has the degree is getting all the money. Don't you think that it is time you were paid fair compensation for the level of work you are already doing? This is your chance to finally make the right move and receive your due benefits. If you are more than qualified with your experience, but are lacking that prestigious piece of paper known as a diploma that is often the passport to success. CALL US TODAY AND GIVE YOUR WORK EXPERIENCE THE CHANCE TO EARN YOU THE HIGHER COMPENSATION YOU DESERVE! Ring anytime 1-801-461-5094 From cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Thu May 12 22:35:49 2011 From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org (cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org) Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 22:35:49 -0500 Subject: The results of your email commands Message-ID: The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Unprocessed: Ring anytime 1-801-461-5094 We provide a concept that will allow anyone with sufficient work experience to obtain a fully verifiable University Degree. Bachelors, Masters or even a Doctorate. Think of it, within four to six weeks, you too could be a college graduate. Many people share the same frustration, they are doing the work of the person that has the degree and the person that has the degree is getting all the money. Don't you think that it is time you were paid fair compensation for the level of work you are already doing? This is your chance to finally make the right move and receive your due benefits. If you are more than qualified with your experience, but are lacking that prestigious piece of paper known as a diploma that is often the passport to success. CALL US TODAY AND GIVE YOUR WORK EXPERIENCE THE CHANCE TO EARN YOU THE HIGHER COMPENSATION YOU DESERVE! Ring anytime 1-801-461-5094 - Done. From peter.turnbull at york.ac.uk Wed May 11 12:23:28 2011 From: peter.turnbull at york.ac.uk (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 11 May 2011 18:23:28 +0100 Subject: core memory project Message-ID: <4DCAC610.9090807@york.ac.uk> Has anyone seen this? http://www.corememoryshield.com/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri May 13 01:04:32 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 06:04:32 +0000 Subject: Weird spam Message-ID: <201105130604.p4D64aMk012570@omr-m33.mx.aol.com> I just received two weird spam emails froom the list this morning. One was a bounce from cctalk to my email address, obviously a cheap attempt at forging headers that failed. The second is just weird. Did anybody get it and figure out what's going on? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri May 13 02:22:54 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 08:22:54 +0100 Subject: core memory project Message-ID: <4DCCDC4E.5030909@dunnington.plus.com> Has anyone seen this? http://www.corememoryshield.com/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri May 13 02:49:26 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 08:49:26 +0100 Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well done, a very through job indeed. Somewhere there must exist a PDP-11 archive. Do HP have it? Or did it all go to Mentec? There seems to be no evidence that Mentec sold the PDP-11 rights and what ever documentation went with them. Does nobody know the truth? If they do let them speak. Has everything that was in it's day the worlds most successful computer system gone? Was it destroyed or lost perhaps. "And ye shall know the truth and the truth will set you free" John 8:32 ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Dickman Sent: 12 May 2011 01:58 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? This thread begs the perennial question: What is the status of Mentec Inc? Who owns rights to the PDP-11 and the Digital Equipment operating system for that architecture? Some on the list have acknowledged PDP-11 related contact with Mentec in the recent past. If I was a licensed user of RT-11 and I wanted to change the terms of the license, how would I do that? I have no direct knowledge of Mentec so I did some online searching, below are my results. -chuck ------------------------ Some Googling shows: Mentec Inc. 13 Hampshire Drive Hudson, NH?03051 United States Phone: 603-883-7711 Fax: 603-883-7799 www.mentec.com Phone is disconnected. Link goes back to Mentec International in Ireland which I think was the parent of Mentec Inc. ------------------------ A search of corporations in New Hampshire finds this record: Date: 5/11/2011 Filed Documents (Annual Report History, View Images, etc.) Business Name History Name Name Type MENTEC, INC. Legal MENTEC, INC. Home State Corporation - Foreign - Information Business ID: 277927 Status: Admin. Suspension Entity Creation Date: 10/9/1997 Dissolve Date: 11/30/1998 State of Business.: DE Principal Office Address: % WINIFRED S GILL 20 INDUSTRIAL PK DR NASHUA NH 03062 Principal Mailing Address: No Address Last Annual Report Filed Date: Last Annual Report Filed: 0 Registered Agent Agent Name: Gill, Winifred Office Address: 20 INDUSTRIAL PK DR NASHUA NH 03062 Mailing Address: ------------------------ The two addresses are about 3 miles apart. ------------------------ Another entity at: DAYBREAK SOFTWARE INC 20 INDUSTRIAL PK DR NASHUA NH 03062 Which seems to still exist: http://www.daybreak-sw.com/ ------------------------ The building at: 13 Hampshire Drive Hudson, NH 03051 It is half occupied and the rest is available for rent. At least part of the address is a printing company. From spedraja at ono.com Fri May 13 02:53:47 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 09:53:47 +0200 Subject: core memory project In-Reply-To: <4DCCDC4E.5030909@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DCCDC4E.5030909@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: To say "weird" don't make justice to this... 2011/5/13 Pete Turnbull > Has anyone seen this? > http://www.corememoryshield.com/ > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 13 04:06:25 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 02:06:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: NSC800 Microprocessor Family Databook (1985) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: > I have a databook from National Semiconductor for the NSC800 family of > microprocessor stuff dated 1985. Free for shipping from California. Book is claimed. Thanks! -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 13 04:09:14 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 02:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Weird spam In-Reply-To: <201105130604.p4D64aMk012570@omr-m33.mx.aol.com> References: <201105130604.p4D64aMk012570@omr-m33.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I just received two weird spam emails froom the list this morning. > > One was a bounce from cctalk to my email address, obviously a cheap > attempt at forging headers that failed. > > The second is just weird. Did anybody get it and figure out what's going > on? It looks like someone got a list of subscribers then forged an email from each of the subscribers to mailman at classiccmp.org. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From vintagecoder at aol.com Fri May 13 05:06:17 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:06:17 +0000 Subject: Re; Weird spam References: Message-ID: <201105131006.p4DA6Mg1019435@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> David Griffith wrote: >On Fri, 13 May 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > I just received two weird spam emails froom the list this morning. > > One was a bounce from cctalk to my email address, obviously a cheap > attempt at forging headers that failed. > > The second is just weird. Did anybody get it and figure out what's going > on? >> It looks like someone got a list of subscribers then forged an email >> from each of the subscribers to mailman at classiccmp.org. Hi David, thanks for your reply. The headers on the one I got looked odd to me. I thought the "Received" header was always supposed to be reliable but it looked like on the one I got it was sent through my ISP. But I don't run Exim (or any mail server actually) and I checked both the boxes on my LAN that were online at the time for exploits and they're both clean. Can't figure out how the spammer is getting email into the system. Anyway I hope the list owner figures it out. Maybe Richard can track him down since the telephone number on the ad is from SLC and have a discussion with him back behind the barn. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 13 05:22:17 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 03:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re; Weird spam In-Reply-To: <201105131006.p4DA6Mg1019435@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> References: <201105131006.p4DA6Mg1019435@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Maybe Richard can track him down since the telephone number on the ad is > from SLC and have a discussion with him back behind the barn. Sometimes if I'm feeling playful, I'll ring a number like that and have some fun. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From evan at snarc.net Fri May 13 05:57:42 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:57:42 +0000 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll Message-ID: <1812194694-1305284264-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1508191552-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> VCF East this weekend has at least three of those five things. Come visit to see which ones! :) http://www.vintage.org/2011/east Kids get in free. From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Fri May 13 05:58:54 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 03:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FF: Kennedy tape drives, and QBUS PDP 11's Message-ID: <673297.17764.qm@web65910.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> More free stuff for collection in West Yorkshire, UK if anyone is interested. 1) I have two Kennedy tape drives, not sure of the model number, but these are the front loading 19" rack mount type. These are spooled tape drives. Look to be in good condition, but I've never powered them on, so not sure if they still work. Having two is useful (one for spares). 2) I have a couple of rack mount case style PDP 11 QBUS machines. These are complete except for the disk drives(s) and the push on front plastic surround (not sure what its called). They do have the control panel and PSU though and a compliment of QBUS cards. email me of list if interested in any of these. Thanks. Ian. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 13 06:44:04 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 07:44:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz> References: <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > Hi Steve, > > I've been a member of that list since early March, having registered when I > was working on my Lisas. I just trawled through my old emails to see if I > could find anyone relevant but I couldn't find any sign of a registration > letter or anyone who specifically welcomed me as the moderator. I have a > feeling I might have just registered on the list site. The list definitely is moderated and "owned" by someone with a Google account. If you submit a posting, you are told it's going to the moderator for approval. > I've found people on the list to be very helpful and friendly. I saw your > posts there and they looked entirely innocuous. I can only think there has > been some kind of mistake or glitch. I wonder if the moderator is ok? Seeing > Rick Hason's passing (Club 100) makes one realise that key members of a > community can disappear from time to time. As have I. The last message I sent (which never appeared) was a thankyou to the folks who responded to my request for the motherboard schematics. When I went to check the list two days later, it threw me off with the "..you are not worthy.." message. The only way I can even read it is by ensuring no Google session cookies are present. And as I mentioned, I've sent two or three "Why?" messages to the submission address and at least that many to low-end-Dan. No response or acknowledgement to anything. I'm coming to the unfortunate conclusion that I may be dealing with a "difficult" personality of some sort and am trying to see the humor in it. At any rate, there are enough Lisa folks on cctech to make the situation livable. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 13 06:45:26 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 07:45:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 36" Pen plotter In CA In-Reply-To: <4DCC472C.3070308@att.net> References: <4DCC472C.3070308@att.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 May 2011, steve shumaker wrote: > ISTR someone looking for a vintage HP penplotter recently... > > FYI: There is an HP DraftMaster II 36" pen plotter listed on CL (San > Francisco Bay Area) for $325. It took me the better part of two years to _give_ one of those away. I still have a big box of pens somewhere. -- From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri May 13 09:37:06 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:37:06 -0400 Subject: Available S-100 board PCBs Message-ID: <3EA2E88AE2B6409E9A7902BCE26B10D1@andrewdesktop> Hi! I've been ordering new and respin S-100 PCBs for the S100computers.com and N8VEM builders. There are several boards left over and available if anyone on CCTALK would like to get some I've noticed recently that some people do not want to "join" the project and prefer to buy the PCBs on eBay. This is a bit of a surprise but if their preference it is OK with me. You can see the available boards here with links for more information. http://shop.ebay.com/lynchkl/m.html Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri May 13 09:52:21 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 10:52:21 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board Message-ID: <69107347D0D14245AAFBC4DDDC6E07F3@andrewdesktop> pdp11 CPU on S100 board? Given that old Soviet knockoffs of pdp11 cpus can be found on ebay, I was wondering if anyone else has thought of making S100 boards containing said processors. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? -----reply----- Hi Dave, I've been monitoring the S-100 PDP-11 CPU board thread and have a couple of observations. I did not know the Russian clone PDP-11 CPU chips lacked datasheets. This is a major problem but maybe surmountable with prototyping. Also, I was very surprised to learn there are no free/open source operating systems for the PDP-11 which would be required to adapt for existing S-100 peripherals. Apparently not even NetBSD is available which is stunning as it runs on practically every CPU in some form AFAIK. The lack of free/open source operating systems is a major problem since it then requires all the PDP-11 peripherals to be hardware compatible. As a result, either the entire PDP-11 CPU with all peripherals fit on a single S-100 board or a suite of dedicated boards would be needed. Neither scenario is realistic IMO. The only remaining practical options IMO are to either write/port a free/open source operating system to PDP-11 (an enormous task) or design an S-100 board with FPGAs and blow in the whole PDP-11 design (CPU with peripherals). The latter option rather defeats the purpose of using an S-100 bus since you can't easily share other boards and it may be easier to just make a PDP-11 SBC. Sorry the S-100 PDP-11 CPU board project does not seem practical at this time. However if anyone has ideas on how to resolve these issues and launch a community project I would be glad to support as best I can. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 13 10:21:29 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 11:21:29 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <69107347D0D14245AAFBC4DDDC6E07F3@andrewdesktop> References: <69107347D0D14245AAFBC4DDDC6E07F3@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4DCD4C79.9040102@neurotica.com> Andrew, you're awesome, but you really, really, REALLY need to switch to a real mail program. Your reply format is...well, painful at best. No offense is intended. Please see below. On 5/13/11 10:52 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Also, I was very surprised to learn there are no free/open source > operating systems for the PDP-11 which would be required to adapt for > existing S-100 peripherals. > > Apparently not even NetBSD is available which is stunning as it runs > on practically every CPU in some form AFAIK. The lack of free/open > source operating systems is a major problem since it then requires > all the PDP-11 peripherals to be hardware compatible. As a result, > either the entire PDP-11 CPU with all peripherals fit on a single > S-100 board or a suite of dedicated boards would be needed. Neither > scenario is realistic IMO. Well, there's always 2BSD. It actually runs quite well, is pretty solid, and supports reasonably modern networking. It's not a bad OS. NetBSD, while wildly portable, would be damn near impossible to port to the PDP-11. It's just too "big". Don't forget that it's a 16-bit architecture with (at most) 22 bits of address space. Even 2.11BSD, the most modern iteration of the 2BSD lineage, took quite a bit of shoe-horning to finish. Hardware compatibility of emulated or re-implemented PDP-11 peripherals shouldn't be that much of a big deal. Keep in mind most of these peripherals were designed 30-40 years ago. The designers of the time were working with far tighter constraints than we have now, and to top it off, were almost always working on paper. I've studied most of the peripheral controller designs and the majority of them are very simple. Pleasantly so, I might add. :-) For those who will point to MSCP controllers and disagree with that assertion, I will point out that most DEC-built MSCP controllers (RQDXn family) used a T-11 processor, not exactly a high-powered machine. Many third-party implementations were built around mcs51-architecture microcontrollers. This places fairly low limits on complexity. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 13 12:48:28 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 12:48:28 -0500 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 5/13/11, Andrew wrote: >The only remaining practical options IMO are to either write/port a >free/open source operating system to PDP-11 (an enormous task) fig-FORTH? I'm pretty sure there was at least one (buggy?) version for PDP-11; I think maybe it ran on top of RSX-11M because I remember trying to type it in on UTCSR's RSX-11M system. I would expect drivers might be relatively easy to write in FORTH, but I don't know what other OS services might pose a challenge. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 13 15:14:01 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 13:14:01 -0700 Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: References: <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Google Lisa List > > On Thu, 12 May 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: [snip] > When I went to check the list two days later, it threw me off with the > "..you are not worthy.." message. The only way I can even read it is > by > ensuring no Google session cookies are present. I have an email account through my university that is managed by GMail and I've also noticed weird interactions with other Google stuff such as Google Groups. For instance, someone had sent me a link to a Google Groups posting, and I kept getting a weird error message until I closed the browser session displaying my university email. If they want any given customer to use more than one of their services, maybe they should take a look at this scenario.... -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 13 15:33:19 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 16:33:19 -0400 Subject: core memory project In-Reply-To: <4DCAC610.9090807@york.ac.uk> References: <4DCAC610.9090807@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Has anyone seen this? > http://www.corememoryshield.com/ No, but very cool. I'm not suggesting uber-tight packing, but it'd be interesting to see if that could be tweaked to do maybe 8 or 16 bytes - that should still be loose enough to run successfully by hand. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 15:37:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:37:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <1812194694-1305284264-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1508191552-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> from "Evan Koblentz" at May 13, 11 10:57:42 am Message-ID: > > VCF East this weekend has at least three of those five things. Come > visit to see which ones! :) I think the DEC and IBM are given :-) 'Sex'... As in Software EXchange? I would guess some of that would be going on. Or maybe the mating of male and female connectors. 'Drugs', I think most cc'ers would rather keep their minds active. 'Rock'. Well, it's a slang term amongst radio hams here for a quartz crystal, also used as 'I've rocked this ex-PMR rig onto 2m' meaning 'I've changed the crystals and retuned it'. I would be very suprised if there were no crystals at a VCF.. 'Roll'. Paper rolls on the back of ASR33s perhaps? 3-level stack operations in Forth or RPL? > > http://www.vintage.org/2011/east > > Kids get in free. But pay to get out again :-) Seriously, good luck, I hope it all goes well -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 13 15:42:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: from "Mark Tapley" at May 13, 11 12:48:28 pm Message-ID: > > At 12:00 -0500 5/13/11, Andrew wrote: > >The only remaining practical options IMO are to either write/port a > >free/open source operating system to PDP-11 (an enormous task) > > fig-FORTH? I'm pretty sure there was at least one (buggy?) version > for PDP-11; I think maybe it ran on top of RSX-11M because I remember > trying to type it in on UTCSR's RSX-11M system. I would expect > drivers might be relatively easy to write in FORTH, but I don't know > what other OS services might pose a challenge. There was a stnad-alone FIG forth too I think. It was bootable RX01 disk and basically used the 'screen' model for loading/saving data (8 contiguous sectors were a 1K screen). I think I have the RT11 version of Fig Forth soemwhere, and it's pretty obvious how to make it the stnadalone version. The only problem is doing it, and writign the progrma fo the boot sector, etc. -tony From classiccmp at crash.com Fri May 13 16:14:30 2011 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 14:14:30 -0700 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DCD9F36.7070409@crash.com> On 05/13/2011 01:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Drugs', I think most cc'ers would rather keep their minds active. ... however most will be dutifully taking their blood pressure medications, proton pump inhibitors, mood stabilizers, antihistamines, and a wide selection of the modern pharmacopoeia as appropriate to their ages and/or constitutions. Sadly, the world of drugs is a lot less fun than it might have sounded to people 40 years ago. (Perhaps some will see a parallel with computing... ;^) /--/Steve. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri May 13 16:18:46 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 17:18:46 -0400 Subject: core memory project In-Reply-To: References: <4DCAC610.9090807@york.ac.uk> Message-ID: <4DCDA036.3080906@verizon.net> On 05/13/2011 04:33 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 1:23 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: >> Has anyone seen this? >> http://www.corememoryshield.com/ > No, but very cool. I'm not suggesting uber-tight packing, but it'd be > interesting to see if that could be tweaked to do maybe 8 or 16 bytes > - that should still be loose enough to run successfully by hand. > > -ethan > Many years back I did a two wire core plane for 16 bytes. I used cores just slightly larger than those in the early PDP8 that some one gave me a load of. To go larger than maybe 64words/bytes it's better to do a three or four wire approach, two half selects and a sense/inhibit line or separate sense and inhibit. I didn't go there as the finest wire I could find was too thick for more than two wires (select and sense). The hardest part was finding the "write current" and Slice or read timing. next step was write and inhibit. One challanege was sensing the valid read after the huge select pulse. it's small compared to the induced pulse from the select current. What starts to happen as the size of the matrix grows the number of external support parts goes up till you hit some large number like a few K and 4/3 wire geometries. Also you need 1 bit per bit of data (8 for byte 16 for 16bit for example) to hold the captured data during write or read. most system use core as RMW cycle, that is a destructive read, execute, modify if required and then write back. Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 16:35:07 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 15:35:07 -0600 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DCDA40B.4060804@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/13/2011 2:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Kids get in free. > > But pay to get out again :-) Hey kids now days, often have the most money. > Seriously, good luck, I hope it all goes well > No nice Rock'n Roll speakers around. The vintage one's are still the best made I think! > -tony > Ben. Good luck! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri May 13 16:37:25 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 15:37:25 -0600 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <4DCD9F36.7070409@crash.com> References: <4DCD9F36.7070409@crash.com> Message-ID: <4DCDA495.7040607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/13/2011 3:14 PM, Steven M Jones wrote: > On 05/13/2011 01:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> 'Drugs', I think most cc'ers would rather keep their minds active. > > ... however most will be dutifully taking their blood pressure > medications, proton pump inhibitors, mood stabilizers, antihistamines, > and a wide selection of the modern pharmacopoeia as appropriate to their > ages and/or constitutions. > Got anything, to keep them from Drooling on the exhibits? From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri May 13 17:17:13 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 15:17:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: core memory project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <282796.25177.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 5/13/11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > No, but very cool.? I'm not suggesting uber-tight > packing, but it'd be > interesting to see if that could be tweaked to do maybe 8 > or 16 bytes > - that should still be loose enough to run successfully by > hand. In practice, the hysteresis loop for the cores is not perfectly square. One issue in the design of core memories is so called "delta noise" introduced on the sense lines by partial switching of the half-selected cores. Obviously, the effect is greater for larger planes with more cores per sense wire. Techniques such as "disturb pulses" were used to mitigate this effect. It sounds like the designers of this memory did not address this concern, and it is likely that they only got away with it due to the small size. Just a warning against naively scaling up their design... --Bill From IanK at vulcan.com Fri May 13 17:35:59 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 15:35:59 -0700 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <1812194694-1305284264-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1508191552-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1812194694-1305284264-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1508191552-@bda2007.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 3:58 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll > > VCF East this weekend has at least three of those five things. Come > visit to see which ones! :) > > http://www.vintage.org/2011/east > > Kids get in free. > How are you going to make any money that way? -- a 50+ year old kid From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri May 13 18:44:14 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 19:44:14 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <4DCD4C79.9040102@neurotica.com> References: <69107347D0D14245AAFBC4DDDC6E07F3@andrewdesktop> <4DCD4C79.9040102@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DCDC24E.6060505@verizon.net> Sheesh! Any OS needs device driver support the serial IO is just plain damn trivial. Mass storage is the PITA. However if your building the machine that problem be comes one of implementation and since the implementer is the likely programmer where the problem? Use something dirt simple like IDE or CF that does 16 bits and is buffered so PIO is the easy out. As to OS, Anything fits if you use a good compiler and don't try to force PCisms into it. Also you have working platforms like real Qbus or Ubus 11s to develop on. On 05/13/2011 11:21 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Andrew, you're awesome, but you really, really, REALLY need to switch > to a real mail program. Your reply format is...well, painful at best. > No offense is intended. Please see below. > > On 5/13/11 10:52 AM, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Also, I was very surprised to learn there are no free/open source >> operating systems for the PDP-11 which would be required to adapt for >> existing S-100 peripherals. >> >> Apparently not even NetBSD is available which is stunning as it runs >> on practically every CPU in some form AFAIK. The lack of free/open >> source operating systems is a major problem since it then requires >> all the PDP-11 peripherals to be hardware compatible. As a result, >> either the entire PDP-11 CPU with all peripherals fit on a single >> S-100 board or a suite of dedicated boards would be needed. Neither >> scenario is realistic IMO. > > Well, there's always 2BSD. It actually runs quite well, is pretty > solid, and supports reasonably modern networking. It's not a bad OS. > > NetBSD, while wildly portable, would be damn near impossible to port > to the PDP-11. It's just too "big". Don't forget that it's a 16-bit > architecture with (at most) 22 bits of address space. Even 2.11BSD, > the most modern iteration of the 2BSD lineage, took quite a bit of > shoe-horning to finish. > > Hardware compatibility of emulated or re-implemented PDP-11 > peripherals shouldn't be that much of a big deal. Keep in mind most > of these peripherals were designed 30-40 years ago. The designers of > the time were working with far tighter constraints than we have now, > and to top it off, were almost always working on paper. I've studied > most of the peripheral controller designs and the majority of them are > very simple. Pleasantly so, I might add. :-) > > For those who will point to MSCP controllers and disagree with that > assertion, I will point out that most DEC-built MSCP controllers > (RQDXn family) used a T-11 processor, not exactly a high-powered > machine. Many third-party implementations were built around > mcs51-architecture microcontrollers. This places fairly low limits on > complexity. > > -Dave > Sheesh! Any OS needs device driver support the serial IO is just plain damn trivial. Mass storage is the PITA. However if your building the machine that problem be comes one of implementation and since the implementer is the likely programmer where the problem? Use something dirt simple like IDE or CF that does 16 bits and is buffered so PIO is the easy out. As to OS, Anything fits if you use a good compiler and don't try to force PCisms into it. Also you have working platforms like real Qbus or Ubus 11s to develop on. Of course if you never programmed an 11 then you completely lost as PCisms are not there. You have a clean CPU no mmu for T11 but its possible to copy the 11/23-11/34 MMU with not so much work. And you have a full spec and docs available for any 11. What doesnt fit in a 8086 did fit well in PDP11 due to it being truly CISC without bogus 8080 registers. Netbsd, even uClinux are out there and would fit. Just learn how to do real virtual memory and swapping. The KT11 MMU made that programatically possible. Allison From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 13 19:32:53 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:32:53 -0400 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <4DCD9F36.7070409@crash.com> References: <4DCD9F36.7070409@crash.com> Message-ID: <4DCDCDB5.2040709@atarimuseum.com> I'll be there with several bags of drugs.... they keep my systemic infection in check so my heart valves don't get reinfected for a 4th time, getting a little tired of having my chest sawed open... so I'll have all my drugs, some DEC's and hey, if anyone wants to head to a strip club after the show... well, there's your sex ;-) Oh and the Mindset's I'm bringing are IBM compatibles... got that covered too :-D Steven M Jones wrote: > On 05/13/2011 01:37 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> 'Drugs', I think most cc'ers would rather keep their minds active. >> > > ... however most will be dutifully taking their blood pressure > medications, proton pump inhibitors, mood stabilizers, antihistamines, > and a wide selection of the modern pharmacopoeia as appropriate to their > ages and/or constitutions. > > Sadly, the world of drugs is a lot less fun than it might have sounded > to people 40 years ago. (Perhaps some will see a parallel with > computing... ;^) > > /--/Steve. > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri May 13 20:44:49 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:44:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: References: <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2011, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:44 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: Google Lisa List >> >> On Thu, 12 May 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > > [snip] > >> When I went to check the list two days later, it threw me off with the >> "..you are not worthy.." message. The only way I can even read it is >> by >> ensuring no Google session cookies are present. > > I have an email account through my university that is managed by GMail > and I've also noticed weird interactions with other Google stuff such as > Google Groups. For instance, someone had sent me a link to a Google > Groups posting, and I kept getting a weird error message until I closed > the browser session displaying my university email. Unfortunately, this is looking like a deliberate action. I have tried several times to clear cache and cookies, log on again and access the group. If Google knows who I am, it tells me I'm banned. If it doesn't, I get read-only access. > If they want any given customer to use more than one of their services, > maybe they should take a look at this scenario.... -- Ian Don't even get me started on Google in-the-large. Steve -- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 13 21:30:27 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 19:30:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <4DCDCDB5.2040709@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "May 13, 11 08:32:53 pm" Message-ID: <201105140230.p4E2URCN012880@floodgap.com> > I'll be there with several bags of drugs.... they keep my systemic > infection in check so my heart valves don't get reinfected for a 4th > time, getting a little tired of having my chest sawed open... Bacterial endocarditis is a right b*tch. I'm sorry to hear you got landed with it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Remember, Windows is not a virus. Viruses actually do something. ----------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri May 13 22:11:44 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 23:11:44 -0400 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <201105140230.p4E2URCN012880@floodgap.com> References: <201105140230.p4E2URCN012880@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DCDF2F0.5000103@atarimuseum.com> On the bright side, one of my antibiotics is dicloxacillin, which is what they treat for Lyme Disease, so looks like I'll never have to worry about getting Lymes -- oh joy! :-/ Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I'll be there with several bags of drugs.... they keep my systemic >> infection in check so my heart valves don't get reinfected for a 4th >> time, getting a little tired of having my chest sawed open... >> > > Bacterial endocarditis is a right b*tch. I'm sorry to hear you got landed > with it. > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri May 13 22:26:14 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 23:26:14 -0400 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll References: <201105140230.p4E2URCN012880@floodgap.com> <4DCDF2F0.5000103@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <2D80EC4AFD0B4D5CB850497B3B8EBD04@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 11:11 PM Subject: Re: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll > On the bright side, one of my antibiotics is dicloxacillin, which is what > they treat for Lyme Disease, so looks like I'll never have to worry about > getting Lymes -- oh joy! :-/ > > You would need to step outside of the house into a wooded area and wait for an infected tick to bite you to get Lyme disease, something few tech geeks have to worry about. Yes, this is just a joke. I looked up Bacterial Endocarditis (no idea what it was) and it does not look like fun. I hope you get over it. Every time I go to the hospital to visit somebody I wonder if I will snag some kind of untreatable super bacterial bug that seems to live in hospitals these days. Doctors seem to go nuts with antibiotics and new drugs are not a huge profit maker so few are researching them. I would hate to go back to the pre Antibiotic era of the 1950's where common tasks like shaving could give you blood poisoning and death. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri May 13 22:33:44 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 20:33:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <4DCDF2F0.5000103@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "May 13, 11 11:11:44 pm" Message-ID: <201105140333.p4E3XilX003954@floodgap.com> > On the bright side, one of my antibiotics is dicloxacillin, which is > what they treat for Lyme Disease, so looks like I'll never have to worry > about getting Lymes -- oh joy! :-/ At least not while you're on it. :P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We aren't your science project! -- Akane, "Ranma 1/2" (OAV 9) -------------- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 14 00:22:15 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 22:22:15 -0700 Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: References: , <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz>, , , Message-ID: Hi Someone has been forging googles group members and spamming various groups. I had such a spam on the canon cat group. It was from one of the members that has otherwise been well behaved. As a moderator, I had the option to mark it as spam and that would ban the member. I almost did this before I recognized the name of the sender. This same thing may have happened to you. The moderator saw a spam and simply pressed the spam button without checking the members status, otherwise. I chose to just delete the email. Dwight > Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 21:44:49 -0400 > From: snhirsch at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Google Lisa List > > On Fri, 13 May 2011, Ian King wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Steven Hirsch > >> Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 4:44 AM > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > >> Subject: Re: Google Lisa List > >> > >> On Thu, 12 May 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > > [snip] > > > >> When I went to check the list two days later, it threw me off with the > >> "..you are not worthy.." message. The only way I can even read it is > >> by > >> ensuring no Google session cookies are present. > > > > I have an email account through my university that is managed by GMail > > and I've also noticed weird interactions with other Google stuff such as > > Google Groups. For instance, someone had sent me a link to a Google > > Groups posting, and I kept getting a weird error message until I closed > > the browser session displaying my university email. > > Unfortunately, this is looking like a deliberate action. I have tried > several times to clear cache and cookies, log on again and access the > group. If Google knows who I am, it tells me I'm banned. If it doesn't, > I get read-only access. > > > If they want any given customer to use more than one of their services, > > maybe they should take a look at this scenario.... -- Ian > > Don't even get me started on Google in-the-large. > > Steve > > > -- > From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 14 06:41:06 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 12:41:06 +0100 Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 May 2011 16:16, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone know who owns this list and how to get in touch with them? ?I > joined last month, made about three totally innocuous postings and found > myself banned at the next attempt to sign in. ?Google, in their infinite > wisdom, gives you no means to find out if it's a mistake, appeal to the > owner, or even get an explanation for why it's occurred! > > I sent a message to the posting address with no response. ?I had been given > the name of "lowenddan at gmail.com" as list owner, but cannot get any response > from that address either. That's Dan Knight, owner/operator of www.lowendmac.com http://lowendmac.com/contact.html -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat May 14 06:51:47 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 12:51:47 +0100 Subject: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll In-Reply-To: <2D80EC4AFD0B4D5CB850497B3B8EBD04@dell8300> References: <201105140230.p4E2URCN012880@floodgap.com> <4DCDF2F0.5000103@atarimuseum.com> <2D80EC4AFD0B4D5CB850497B3B8EBD04@dell8300> Message-ID: On 14 May 2011 04:26, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Friday, May 13, 2011 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll > > >> On the bright side, one of my antibiotics is dicloxacillin, which is what >> they treat for Lyme Disease, so looks like I'll never have to worry about >> getting Lymes -- oh joy! :-/ >> >> > > You would need to step outside of the house into a wooded area and wait for > an infected tick to bite you to get Lyme disease, something few tech geeks > have to worry about. Yes, this is just a joke. > > I looked up Bacterial Endocarditis (no idea what it was) and it does not > look like fun. I hope you get over it. Every time I go to the hospital to > visit somebody I wonder if I will snag some kind of untreatable super > bacterial bug that seems to live in hospitals these days. Doctors seem to go > nuts with antibiotics and new drugs are not a huge profit maker so few are > researching them. I would hate to go back to the pre Antibiotic era of the > 1950's where common tasks like shaving could give you blood poisoning and > death. Suicide's your best bet, then. No matter what the fundies say, evolution is a demonstrated fact, now, and all manner of parasitic bacteria are cheerfully evolving resistance to antibiotics. The USA is one of the most culpable parties in this, as it is routine to feed antibiotics to farm animals over there - including all the perfectly healthy ones - providing a vast living reservoir for the bugs to live in while they evolve resistance to drugs. Soon enough - a human generation or so - we'll be right back to the pre-WW2 situation, where most or all common bacterial infections are essentially untreatable with medication. It will be a shame - my life's been saved by them, for instance, and I'm jolly grateful - but on the other hand, the human population is grossly inflated now. We're at about 7 thousand million now, when probably, to preserve the planetary ecosystem in reasonable shape, we should be under one thousand million. A few epic mega-plagues would help the numbers move in the right direction quite a lot. Black Death 2, here we come! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat May 14 07:10:47 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 08:10:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: References: , <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz>, , , Message-ID: On Fri, 13 May 2011, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > Someone has been forging googles group members and spamming > various groups. I had such a spam on the canon cat group. > It was from one of the members that has otherwise been > well behaved. > As a moderator, I had the option to mark it as spam and > that would ban the member. I almost did this before I recognized > the name of the sender. > This same thing may have happened to you. The moderator > saw a spam and simply pressed the spam button without > checking the members status, otherwise. > I chose to just delete the email. That's what I originally thought, but I sent two or three "..why?" messages to the posting address (where presumably the moderator would see them whether or not I was a member) and the same number to the personal gmail address of the purported list owner. No response. -- From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 14 12:05:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 10:05:16 -0700 Subject: EPITEK IC Chips? In-Reply-To: <4DCB66BD.10503@atarimuseum.com> References: , , <4DCB66BD.10503@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DCE53DC.21710.7CFBC9@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 May 2011 at 0:49, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I have a daughtercard on two of my Mindset computers with a 24pin IC > on them marked EPITEK.... anybody ever heard of these company or know > of anything about a video IC chip or encoder they made? Canadian outfit, originally. Address of 100 Schneider Rd. Kanata, ON. Acquired by CompAS Electronics in the 1990s. After that, ?. datasheets.org.uk turns up an EDH444TC "TriDAC" - a 3-channel D-to-A converter for video applications. --Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat May 14 14:07:08 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 15:07:08 -0400 Subject: Infections (was Re: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll) References: Message-ID: <49442D230AE04594A24A05E2AE9FFA42@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > > Message: 17 > Date: Fri, 13 May 2011 23:26:14 -0400 > From: "Teo Zenios" > Subject: Re: DEC, IBM, sex, drugs, rock 'n' roll > > You would need to step outside of the house into a wooded area and wait > for an infected tick to bite you to get Lyme disease, something few tech > geeks have to worry about. Yes, this is just a joke. ----- Reply: Apparently we're fortunate up here in Canada; although there are thousands of cases in the bordering US states, according to many doctors the ticks don't cross the border: "...most Canadian doctors are woefully uneducated about Lyme Disease, erroneously believing that it does not occur in Canada." This is *not* a joke! http://www.canadatrails.ca/outdoors/lyme.html From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat May 14 15:31:23 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:31:23 +0200 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <000901cbfe6c$c621d460$52657d20$@xs4all.nl> References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000901cbfe6c$c621d460$52657d20$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000601cc1275$e7863e30$b692ba90$@xs4all.nl> > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility on > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination. > Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. Please > check again later. > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by paypal refunded > money. > I'll keep you people posted. > > -Rik At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. And of cause I payed them.. -Rik From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 14 16:05:49 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 14:05:49 -0700 Subject: Variac and reforming caps... Message-ID: For general use on old personal computer systems, S100, Kaypro, etc.... Would a 5A variac be sufficient? And is there any write ups anywhere on how to use the variac when powering up a system that hasn?t been powered up in > 10 years? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 14 19:49:41 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 17:49:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: Tandon TM-100-4 floppy drive Message-ID: I have a Tandon TM-100-4 floppy drive that needs some work on the drive door. Free for shipping from California. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat May 14 20:34:58 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:34:58 -0300 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com><4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net><9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> Message-ID: <631E40229641487AAAC66D0CA73C6733@portajara> > We've got some HP4000's at work that are great workhorses. I took a look at a HP5SI MX today...R$ 900 if my girlfriend hadn't said to the seller "R$ 300 is a steal on this machine, it must be worthy R$ 2000!!!" :o( > That and I can change the READY message to things like, "OUT OF CHEESE" or > "INSERT 25 CENTS". The look on people's faces is just priceless. :) :oD > I'm really looking forward to the day I figure out how to make the Ricoh > copy center show a pong game on the LCD display. :D ROTF!!! :D :D :D From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat May 14 20:36:54 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:36:54 -0300 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: <4DC9504F.60207@neurotica.com><4DC9691C.8020603@verizon.net><9782093F96EE4AA4A7C331F9AB636080@portajara> <89115231376B4C2A9A42077ADF557795@dell8300> Message-ID: > tokenring). All I am missing is the duplexer. Postscript printers were > nice I dream of finding one for my 4Plus :( > to have in the 1990's. I also managed to get a new HP toner for it on ebay > for something like $11 shipped a few years back, which is better then > using old toners that were repeatedly refilled and leave streaks. I have > spare rollers and fusers so it will last till I get bored of it. You must recondition the entire cartridge, changing the doctor blade, wiper and cylinder....Or else, streaks :) From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat May 14 20:38:50 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 22:38:50 -0300 Subject: HP LJIIp and LJIIIp printers - get them working or dump them? References: Message-ID: <6349647DF8C74AB38011658DA40E6E70@portajara> > Locally I almost had a 5SIMX a few years ago until my help in getting it > busted their shoulder and I couldn't get another person to help me get it > our of the 2nd floor office and down to my subaru :( > The person giving it away said it was busted, but the symptoms were about > $30 in parts and a couple hours to fix... Had fixed about half a dozen for > a > local computer recycler in trade for some sparc hardware. This is a printer I look for to have. There is a real nice one, with duplexer, multiple paper sources and the entire cabinet for R$ 900 near my home. So bad it is too expensive to me :( From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 14 21:57:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 19:57:23 -0700 Subject: FFS: Tandon TM-100-4 floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DCEDEA3.10709.29B158F@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 May 2011 at 17:49, David Griffith wrote: > > I have a Tandon TM-100-4 floppy drive that needs some work on the > drive door. Free for shipping from California. Sounds familiar--the plastic clips that the latch pivots in are broken, right? Probably the most common mechanical failure of the drive. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Sat May 14 23:25:33 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:25:33 -0700 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <000601cc1275$e7863e30$b692ba90$@xs4all.nl> References: <002c01cbfdee$042d42f0$0c87c8d0$@xs4all.nl>, <912282.44998.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000901cbfe6c$c621d460$52657d20$@xs4all.nl>, <000601cc1275$e7863e30$b692ba90$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: You can't blame him for customs. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos [hp-fix at xs4all.nl] Sent: Saturday, May 14, 2011 1:31 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility on > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination. > Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. Please > check again later. > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by paypal refunded > money. > I'll keep you people posted. > > -Rik At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. And of cause I payed them.. -Rik From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 14 23:53:35 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 21:53:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FFS: Tandon TM-100-4 floppy drive In-Reply-To: <4DCEDEA3.10709.29B158F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DCEDEA3.10709.29B158F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 May 2011 at 17:49, David Griffith wrote: > >> I have a Tandon TM-100-4 floppy drive that needs some work on the >> drive door. Free for shipping from California. > > Sounds familiar--the plastic clips that the latch pivots in are > broken, right? Probably the most common mechanical failure of the > drive. Yep. Want it? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 15 11:48:54 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 12:48:54 -0400 Subject: Fan Fole Paper Message-ID: <4DD003F6.3050202@compsys.to> I have about a dozen boxes of fan fold paper. Most are 9 1/2" by 11". The sides with the holes for the sprockets tear off leaving a clean sheet of 8 1/2" by 11". I an in Toronto. Is there any interest these days in fan fold paper. I suspect that the cost of shipping is more than the paper is worth, so local pickup only. If there is no interest, I will dispose of the paper in June. Jerome Fine From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 15 12:04:30 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 10:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRS80 PT210 printing terminal serial board Message-ID: I recently completed a PCB layout for a serial board for the TRS-80 PT210 printing terminal. The primary intended means of connecting to a host to this is an accoustic coupling modem. If you want to use RS232 serial, you need an optional board. These boards have since become very hard to find, so I used the info I found in the service manual to make my own. See http://batchpcb.com/index.php/Products/59707 to get your own made. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pontus at update.uu.se Sun May 15 12:06:29 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 19:06:29 +0200 Subject: Fan Fole Paper In-Reply-To: <4DD003F6.3050202@compsys.to> References: <4DD003F6.3050202@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DD00815.9000103@update.uu.se> Hi Jerome At first I thought you meant fan fold paper tape, which I would pay shipping for. But given the sizes I suppose you are talking about "Continuous form paper" ? That I wont pay shipping for :) Regards, Pontus. (Apparently also know as /fan-fold paper/, /sprocket feed paper/, /burst paper/, /tractor-feed paper/, and /pin feed paper/) 2011-05-15 18:48, Jerome H. Fine skrev: > I have about a dozen boxes of fan fold paper. > Most are 9 1/2" by 11". The sides with the holes > for the sprockets tear off leaving a clean sheet > of 8 1/2" by 11". > > I an in Toronto. Is there any interest these > days in fan fold paper. I suspect that the > cost of shipping is more than the paper is > worth, so local pickup only. > > If there is no interest, I will dispose of the > paper in June. > > Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 15 11:56:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:56:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 In-Reply-To: <000601cc1275$e7863e30$b692ba90$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at May 14, 11 10:31:23 pm Message-ID: > At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. > And of cause I payed them.. Excellent! IIRC one of the devices was an HP59405 HPIB interface for the 9820/9830. You'll ahve fun with that (I speak from experience!), all you need to do is fix the 9830. How are you getting on with that BTW? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 15 12:03:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 18:03:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Variac and reforming caps... In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at May 14, 11 02:05:49 pm Message-ID: > > For general use on old personal computer systems, S100, Kaypro, etc.... > Would a 5A variac be sufficient? On 110V mains (I assume you're in the States), A 5A variac will supply a 550W load or theresbouts. I would think that would be adequate for any of the micros you mention. > > And is there any write ups anywhere on how to use the variac when powering > up a system that hasn=B9t been powered up in > 10 years? > Other than 'don't'? :-). More seriously. most switch mode PSUs will do odd things at low input votlages. They approximate a constant _power_ load, which means the mains current actually increases as the mains input voltage decreases. If the supply is not well-designed (and a lot of them aren't!), you can end up doing damage. S100 machines do not normally have SMPSUS, so you can safely put those on a Variac. But I am not sure what the point of doing that is. I would remove the smoothing capacitors and test/reform them with a bench power supply and series resistor, then check the transformer insulation with a 'Megger' (hgih voltage insulation tester), and then probalby power up the transformer/rectifier/smoothing caps (i.e. with no boards in the backplane) with a filament lamp in series wit hthe mainc. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Sun May 15 14:27:10 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 12:27:10 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Andrew Burton Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2011 2:59 PM > Does anyone know of any good books for learning latin? I'm fond of Moreland & Fleischer, _Latin: An Intensive Course_, for starters. Beyond that, you can get good practice with Dunlop's _Short Latin Stories_ and Groton & May's _Thirty-Eight Latin Stories_, then Hammond and Amory's _Aeneas to Augustus: A Beginning Latin Reader for College Students_ to get an idea of what you'd really like to read. Personally, I like Leonard and Smith's edition of _De rerum natura_, and the Pharr edition of the _Aeneid_ is good for beginners. Then you get into the long stuff, Cicero's law pleadings and the Catilinarians, Caesar's self-promotion, Catullus' wonderful dirty poetry, and the whole of Latinity. "But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." --Dennis Miller (I didn't like Latin for a very long time, but then I learned to read it for real in the UC Berkeley summer intensive course prior to a return to grad school. Greek has more interesting nooks and crannies for the beginning linguist, or so I thought. That class got me over that.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun May 15 16:14:13 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 23:14:13 +0200 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller Message-ID: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> I don't, I ordered the items at the end of January ... You can read the story in one of the earlier messages. > You can't blame him for customs. > ________________________________________ > > > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility > on > > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the > destination. > > Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. > Please > > check again later. > > > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by > paypal refunded > > money. > > I'll keep you people posted. > > > > -Rik > > At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. > And of cause I payed them.. > > -Rik > From IanK at vulcan.com Sun May 15 16:25:52 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 14:25:52 -0700 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller In-Reply-To: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Yes, I've been part of the thread: I'm one of the folks who has had many good transactions with this seller. Unlike the last guy I dealt with: I sent him a private email telling him I was disappointed with the condition of his "nice" item (and his photos are from stock, not representative), and he was incredibly nasty in his response. Ooh, I have lots of good feedback, he says. Well, now he has some bad feedback, not over the product (which was oversold) but his crappy attitude.... Maybe everyone else was happy, but I'm not. Maybe the rest of us are happy with Larry, but you're not. I don't know what happened with your transaction, but I and a lot of other folks have had good experience with this guy. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos [hp-fix at xs4all.nl] Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 2:14 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller I don't, I ordered the items at the end of January ... You can read the story in one of the earlier messages. > You can't blame him for customs. > ________________________________________ > > > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility > on > > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the > destination. > > Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. > Please > > check again later. > > > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by > paypal refunded > > money. > > I'll keep you people posted. > > > > -Rik > > At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. > And of cause I payed them.. > > -Rik > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun May 15 16:32:13 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 23:32:13 +0200 Subject: HP 9830 status.. Message-ID: <002a01cc1347$93784400$ba68cc00$@xs4all.nl> I'm not making a lot of progress, was using my time to fix the Citroen DS replacing thegearbox in it and overhauling the steering cylinder and fixing a lot of little items which you encounter when working on a 44 year old car. It's a little like classic computing, if you don't touch it everything keeps working, but if ....etc. Citroen used a rubber based wire insulation for the DS and Pallas models between 1965 and 1968. This kind of insulation hardens over time and corrodes the copper wires, in the Safari I have, this wiring isn't used for the main wiring harness (lucky me:-) but they used it for smaller components like the wiper engine wiring and ignition resistor wiring etc.. Real fun and lots of fuses ;-) To come back to the HP 9830 I did find some time to connect the LA to the datapath board and look at the Carry and ALU signals The carry doesn't change while the processor is running it's test cycle, the QC and AC lines seems to be consistent to the processor state. So I think I have to look at the timing of U12B and at the BCD mode X2. I'll get it running .. some day -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 15 mei 2011 18:57 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller : sammyslave1 > > > At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. > > And of cause I payed them.. > > Excellent! > > IIRC one of the devices was an HP59405 HPIB interface for the 9820/9830. > You'll ahve fun with that (I speak from experience!), all you need to do is fix the > 9830. How are you getting on with that BTW? > > -tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 15 19:03:54 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:03:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 May 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > Personally, I like Leonard and Smith's edition of _De rerum natura_, > and the Pharr edition of the _Aeneid_ is good for beginners. Then you > get into the long stuff, Cicero's law pleadings and the Catilinarians, > Caesar's self-promotion, Catullus' wonderful dirty poetry, and the > whole of Latinity. If you're really nutty, you can read the Latin versions of the Harry Potter series. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 15 19:32:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 17:32:31 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 May 2011 at 17:03, David Griffith wrote: > If you're really nutty, you can read the Latin versions of the Harry > Potter series. Or catch your news on YLE (Finnish) Radio 1: http://yle.fi/radio1/tiede/nuntii_latini/ Personally, Finnish seems to be much more of a mystery to me than Latin... Ave atque vale, Chuck From fjgjr1 at aol.com Sun May 15 20:04:59 2011 From: fjgjr1 at aol.com (fjgjr1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 21:04:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fan Fole Paper In-Reply-To: <4DD003F6.3050202@compsys.to> References: <4DD003F6.3050202@compsys.to> Message-ID: <8CDE17C695CF12F-16D8-64D18@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com> Me too, but noticed even at our local Staples office supply store - a national chain - presume you have them too - there are still boxes of them offered for sale - I think about the same price as a box of copy paper $30 - $40. Yes, it is the shipping that is the issue - they are heavy ! Looks like mine will just go to the recycling center with a lot of the rest of our stuff as we cleanout / downsize after 40 + years of marriage and very active careers. Good luck - thanks for asking - you never know ! Frank -----Original Message----- From: Jerome H. Fine To: ""General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:53 pm Subject: Fan Fole Paper I have about a dozen boxes of fan fold paper. ost are 9 1/2" by 11". The sides with the holes or the sprockets tear off leaving a clean sheet f 8 1/2" by 11". I an in Toronto. Is there any interest these ays in fan fold paper. I suspect that the ost of shipping is more than the paper is orth, so local pickup only. If there is no interest, I will dispose of the aper in June. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 15 20:54:01 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 21:54:01 -0400 Subject: Fan Fold Paper - Tractor feed paper for printing In-Reply-To: <8CDE17C695CF12F-16D8-64D18@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com> References: <4DD003F6.3050202@compsys.to> <8CDE17C695CF12F-16D8-64D18@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DD083B9.2050205@compsys.to> >fjgjr1 at aol.com wrote: >Me too, but noticed even at our local Staples office supply store - a national chain - presume you have them too - there are still boxes of them offered for sale - I think about the same price as a box of copy paper $30 - $40. > > But not the same volume, so I presume that the mark-up is higher. >Yes, it is the shipping that is the issue - they are heavy ! > > CORRECT!! There are probably about 3000 sheets per box which is why local pickup is the only option. Many of my listings back when I still used hard copy listings were around 3000 sheets for the RT-11 Monitor files. When I switched to hobby use, all of my listings were kept on the 600 MB hard drive and I used 6 VT100 terminals on one desk (stacked two high) to provide sufficient access to edit and debug. Now that I have Ersatz-11, everything is on ONE monitor and the key switches from one "terminal" to the next in about 1/10 second. And the hard drive will soon be 2 TB. What a difference 15 years makes. >Looks like mine will just go to the recycling center with a lot of the rest of our stuff as we cleanout / downsize after 40 + years of marriage and very active careers. > > I am at 54 years of marriage - anyone any longer? >Good luck - thanks for asking - you never know! > >Frank > > That is why I asked. >-----Original Message----- >From: Jerome H. Fine >To: ""General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Sent: Sun, May 15, 2011 12:53 pm >Subject: Fan Fold Paper - Tractor feed paper for printing > > >I have about a dozen boxes of fan fold paper. >Most are 9 1/2" by 11". The sides with the holes >for the sprockets tear off leaving a clean sheet >of 8 1/2" by 11". > > I also have a box of the "green line" paper 15" by 11" >I am in Toronto. Is there any interest these >days in fan fold paper. I suspect that the >cost of shipping is more than the paper is >worth, so local pickup only. >If there is no interest, I will dispose of the >paper in June. >Jerome Fine > From chd at chdickman.com Sun May 15 21:25:23 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 22:25:23 -0400 Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? > > This thread begs the perennial question: What is the status of Mentec > Inc? This has been a touchy subject since I have been playing with DEC hardware. Since I was never professionally involved, I will let those who know, know, and let it fall out as it may. -chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun May 15 23:10:52 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 21:10:52 -0700 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl>, Message-ID: Hi I bought a board from him. His responce to email was slow and I did a will call on the board. The board was in good condition and functional. He has quite a pile of HP stuff that seems to be getting older day by day. I had otherwise a good experience with him. As for Ian's problem, he has the right to file a complaint with ebay. It is not OK to use another photo unless it states so on the photo that it is not the exact item. He has the right to a partial refund or money back. I've gotten to the point that I have no problem filing bad feedback if I find anything poorly done. It is what feedback is about. Seller should know better than to pack poorly or misrepresent items. Dwight > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > Yes, I've been part of the thread: I'm one of the folks who has had many good transactions with this seller. > > Unlike the last guy I dealt with: I sent him a private email telling him I was disappointed with the condition of his "nice" item (and his photos are from stock, not representative), and he was incredibly nasty in his response. Ooh, I have lots of good feedback, he says. Well, now he has some bad feedback, not over the product (which was oversold) but his crappy attitude.... Maybe everyone else was happy, but I'm not. Maybe the rest of us are happy with Larry, but you're not. > > I don't know what happened with your transaction, but I and a lot of other folks have had good experience with this guy. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos [hp-fix at xs4all.nl] > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 2:14 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller > > I don't, I ordered the items at the end of January ... > You can read the story in one of the earlier messages. > > > You can't blame him for customs. > > ________________________________________ > > > > > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility > > on > > > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the > > destination. > > > Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. > > Please > > > check again later. > > > > > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by > > paypal refunded > > > money. > > > I'll keep you people posted. > > > > > > -Rik > > > > At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. > > And of cause I payed them.. > > > > -Rik > > > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 16 00:01:36 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 22:01:36 -0700 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl>, , Message-ID: BTW, after the last email salvo from the unpleasant person I describe below I've decided to post his eBay ID: fyrcomltd1. He's an unbelievably obnoxious person who responded to a polite statement questioning his listing with a sarcastic put-down - and went downhill from there. I'm not going to put the effort into a formal eBay complaint for a $25 item, and I can't believe the effort he's put in to insulting me over... a $25 item. The item? I got nostalgic and decided to pick up a Motorola HT-220 radio. I used to work on these years ago and, for $25, it seemed like fun to buy one; I figured I might test for a new amateur ticket so I can play with the thing. It was described as "nice" and accompanied by some fuzzy photos (which I now see he uses repeatedly in listings for more units he has to sell). Actually, this unit is filthy, lacks a nameplate and has some sort of ID number scratched into its face. The battery compartment looks like something died in there (i.e. I'm going to take step to clean out what looks like chemical corrosion). Supposedly it's been tested in the 2m ham band but, given the lack of honesty regarding the rest of its presentation, I'll believe that when I see it. OK, it's only $25, and if he'd been honest about its physical condition I would have nothing else to say. But this unit is not "nice" by any stretch. Having been involved with acquisition of far older electronic artifacts for many years, I think I can distinguish "nice for its age" from "dug out from under a pile of rotting crap in someone's basement." If he'd just said, "sorry," that would have been the end of it. Instead, he's taken the time to send more than one snotty, hateful, content-free email. While the increasing greed of eBay itself does indeed put me off, it's experiences like this that really discourage me from using this forum for purchases. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey [dkelvey at hotmail.com] Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 9:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller Hi I bought a board from him. His responce to email was slow and I did a will call on the board. The board was in good condition and functional. He has quite a pile of HP stuff that seems to be getting older day by day. I had otherwise a good experience with him. As for Ian's problem, he has the right to file a complaint with ebay. It is not OK to use another photo unless it states so on the photo that it is not the exact item. He has the right to a partial refund or money back. I've gotten to the point that I have no problem filing bad feedback if I find anything poorly done. It is what feedback is about. Seller should know better than to pack poorly or misrepresent items. Dwight > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > Yes, I've been part of the thread: I'm one of the folks who has had many good transactions with this seller. > > Unlike the last guy I dealt with: I sent him a private email telling him I was disappointed with the condition of his "nice" item (and his photos are from stock, not representative), and he was incredibly nasty in his response. Ooh, I have lots of good feedback, he says. Well, now he has some bad feedback, not over the product (which was oversold) but his crappy attitude.... Maybe everyone else was happy, but I'm not. Maybe the rest of us are happy with Larry, but you're not. > > I don't know what happened with your transaction, but I and a lot of other folks have had good experience with this guy. -- Ian > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos [hp-fix at xs4all.nl] > Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 2:14 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller > > I don't, I ordered the items at the end of January ... > You can read the story in one of the earlier messages. > > > You can't blame him for customs. > > ________________________________________ > > > > > Your item was processed through and left our SAN JOSE, CA 95101 facility > > on > > > April 18, 2011 at 11:27 pm. The item is currently in transit to the > > destination. > > > Information, if available, is updated periodically throughout the day. > > Please > > > check again later. > > > > > > If the items arrive in good order I'll of cause will send him the by > > paypal refunded > > > money. > > > I'll keep you people posted. > > > > > > -Rik > > > > At last I recieved my items after they were held in customs .. > > And of cause I payed them.. > > > > -Rik > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 16 00:53:52 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 06:53:52 +0100 Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl>, , Message-ID: <017201cc138d$a3ffab60$ebff0220$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King > Sent: 16 May 2011 06:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller > > BTW, after the last email salvo from the unpleasant person I describe below > I've decided to post his eBay ID: fyrcomltd1. He's an unbelievably obnoxious > person who responded to a polite statement questioning his listing with a > sarcastic put-down - and went downhill from there. I'm not going to put the > effort into a formal eBay complaint for a $25 item, and I can't believe the > effort he's put in to insulting me over... a $25 item. > I really think you should put in a complaint, it does not matter how much or little the item cost, people have no right to behave in this manner and should be taken to account for it. Regards Rob From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 16 02:02:10 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 08:02:10 +0100 Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds like a job for Mulder and Scully to me. ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charles Dickman Sent: 16 May 2011 03:25 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? > Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? > > This thread begs the perennial question: What is the status of Mentec > Inc? This has been a touchy subject since I have been playing with DEC hardware. Since I was never professionally involved, I will let those who know, know, and let it fall out as it may. -chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon May 16 02:36:47 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sun, 15 May 2011 23:36:47 -0800 Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1701726D13F.00000010n0body.h0me@inbox.com> "The Truth is Out There" > -----Original Message----- > From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > Sent: Mon, 16 May 2011 08:02:10 +0100 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 > board? > > > > Sounds like a job for Mulder and Scully to me. > > Rod Smallwood > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Charles Dickman > Sent: 16 May 2011 03:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 > board? > >> Subject: What is the status of Mentec? was: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? >> >> This thread begs the perennial question: What is the status of Mentec >> Inc? > > This has been a touchy subject since I have been playing with DEC > hardware. Since I was never professionally involved, I will let those > who know, know, and let it fall out as it may. > > -chuck ____________________________________________________________ Share photos & screenshots in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if1 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 13:09:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:09:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 9830 status.. In-Reply-To: <002a01cc1347$93784400$ba68cc00$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at May 15, 11 11:32:13 pm Message-ID: > > I'm not making a lot of progress, was using my time to fix the Citroen DS > replacing thegearbox in it and overhauling the steering cylinder and fixing Ah, right... It's a lovely vehicle, but it needs a bit of work to keep it going. I fully understand. > a lot of little items which you encounter when working on a 44 year old car. > It's a little like classic computing, if you don't touch it everything keeps > working, but if ....etc. Exactly. > Citroen used a rubber based wire insulation for the DS and Pallas models > between 1965 and 1968. > This kind of insulation hardens over time and corrodes the copper wires, in Ouch! [...] > To come back to the HP 9830 I did find some time to connect the LA to the > datapath board and look at the Carry and ALU signals > The carry doesn't change while the processor is running it's test cycle, the > QC and AC lines seems to be consistent to the processor state. So I think I > have to look at the timing of U12B and at the BCD mode X2. It's not unhear-of for the 7474 that holds the 2 carry flags to fail. I know I had to chaage it in one of my 9800s (I forget which one). Of course with a logic analyser it's easy to see if the output should be changing. > I'll get it running .. some day I know the feeling... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 13:13:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:13:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller In-Reply-To: <017201cc138d$a3ffab60$ebff0220$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 16, 11 06:53:52 am Message-ID: > > I really think you should put in a complaint, it does not matter how much or > little the item cost, people have no right to behave in this manner and > should be taken to account for it. I would agree. If the seller is going to behave in this way over a $25 item, what's he going to be like with a much more expensive item? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 16 13:26:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:26:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Bad ebay experiance with ebay seller In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 15, 11 02:25:52 pm Message-ID: > Unlike the last guy I dealt with: I sent him a private email telling him I = > was disappointed with the condition of his "nice" item (and his photos are = > from stock, not representative), and he was incredibly nasty in his respons= > e. Ooh, I have lots of good feedback, he says. Well, now he has some bad f= > eedback, not over the product (which was oversold) but his crappy attitude.= > ... Maybe everyone else was happy, but I'm not. Maybe the rest of us are h= > appy with Larry, but you're not. =20 There are a couple of things that I would 'expect' of any seller, whether on E-bay or not. Firstly, the description should be accurate. Saying something is 'nice' when it's totally beat-up is not 'accurate'. Now, I (and I guess eveyone else here) try to be reasoanble about this. I know that I am buying a device that (in many cases) left the factory 30-40 years ago. I do _NOT_ expect it to look brand new. Nor do I expect it to work (things do fail with time). But if I buy a loose PCB and it's covered in corrosion, etc, then that's not 'nice'. Sometimes things do exceed my expectations. I bought a parallel port board for one of my HP machines, it was only a few pouinds on E-bay. I expected an ex-equipment board. What I got was a brand new one, in HP anti-static bag, not screatches on the edge fingers with the manual and stickly labels. Yes, I was very happy. Secondly, IMHO the makrk of a good seller is not whether or not things go wrong, becuaseproblems can heppen to anyoen, and it may well not be the sellers fault. It's how the behave when things go wrong, are they prepared to work with the buyer to put things right. Of course the buyer has to be reasonable about it too. A copule of examples, one on E-bay the other not. I bouigth an HP DAC box from an E-bay seller and it appears to be lost in shipping (the tracking information said it had left the USA but not arrived in the UK). The seller offered me a refund after a sensible time, but I said that hte money was much less useful to me than the unit, and that as they seemed ot be a surplus dealer who was likely to get another one sometime, I was happy to let them keep the money and when they got anoither unit, they could send me that one. They were happy with this. A couple of days later, the shipping company found the original parcel and it arrived -- in great condition. So of course I gave them good feednack. The otehr was a company in England who specialise in model engineering books -- Camden Miniature Steam Services. I oreders some books fromthem, and when they came one of them was the wrong book. The title was identical I think (or very similar), but the author wasn't, and I'd already got that one. Anyway, I phoned them up, they agreed it was a mistake and said that I should send the incorrect book abck and they'd send me the right one. And they did -- very promptly. Needless to say I've ordered from them again, and wil lrecomend them for such books. Fortunately, most of the E-bay sellers I've dealt with have been honest and helpful. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 16 14:01:10 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 12:01:10 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: David Griffith Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 5:04 PM > On Sun, 15 May 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Personally, I like Leonard and Smith's edition of _De rerum natura_, >> and the Pharr edition of the _Aeneid_ is good for beginners. Then you >> get into the long stuff, Cicero's law pleadings and the Catilinarians, >> Caesar's self-promotion, Catullus' wonderful dirty poetry, and the >> whole of Latinity. > If you're really nutty, you can read the Latin versions of the Harry > Potter series. You had better be able to read Cicero and Caesar when you tackle those. Besides the first two books in Latin (and the first in classical Greek), I also have _Tela Charlottae_, _Winnie-ille-Pu_[1] and _Winnie-ille-Pu Semper Ludet_,[2] and _Ferdinandus Taurum_. One of these days I'll pick up _Alice in terra mirabile_ and _Alice per speculo_, and maybe some Asterix or Tin-tin or Babar. The people who do this kind of translation are serious scholars taking a break from serious scholastics, and are only interested in doing things they can be proud of--not unlike restoring a half-century old bit of electronics to working condition...[3] [1] "Qualis fabulas diliget?" "De se ipso, nam talis ursus est." [2] Why it's not _Domus Quadrivio Pu_ I don't know. [3] Some day I'll finish _Ille Hobbitus_. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 16 14:14:42 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 12:14:42 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, , <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2011 5:33 PM Si vales, valeo. > Personally, Finnish seems to be much more of a mystery to me than > Latin... Not surprising, given that it is a member of an entirely different family, Uralic, which is not demonstrably related at a time depth of less than 10,000 years before the present to the Indo-European family (of which Latin is a member). 20 years ago I was willing to entertain the Nostratic hypothesis, which posits a familial relationship among Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic[1], Kartvelian[2], Dravidian[3], and possibly Etruscan, but the efforts of three very talented linguists to demonstrate such a relationship give rise to three massively conflicting reconstructions, so that the only conclusion to be reached is "not provable." I no longer consider it a viable area in which to work. > Ave atque vale, > Chuck Te videbimus. Scribe si laborem obtinas. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 16 14:26:01 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 12:26:01 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, , <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Rich Alderson Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 12:15 PM > 20 years ago I was willing to entertain the Nostratic hypothesis, which > posits a familial relationship among Indo-European, Uralic, Altaic[1], > Kartvelian[2], Dravidian[3], and possibly Etruscan, but the efforts of three > very talented linguists to demonstrate such a relationship give rise to > three massively conflicting reconstructions, so that the only conclusion to > be reached is "not provable." I no longer consider it a viable area in which > to work. Oops, forgot the footnotes: [1] Turkish, Mongolian, and Manchu, possibly Japanese and Korean as well. [2] Georgian, Mingrelian, Laz and Svan, spoken in the south Caucasus. [3] Largely located in southern India. Major members are Tamil, Telugu, Kannada, and Malayalam. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 16 15:05:46 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 13:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: >> If you're really nutty, you can read the Latin versions of the Harry >> Potter series. > > You had better be able to read Cicero and Caesar when you tackle those. > > Besides the first two books in Latin (and the first in classical Greek), > I also have _Tela Charlottae_, _Winnie-ille-Pu_[1] and _Winnie-ille-Pu > Semper Ludet_,[2] and _Ferdinandus Taurum_. One of these days I'll pick > up _Alice in terra mirabile_ and _Alice per speculo_, and maybe some > Asterix or Tin-tin or Babar. > > The people who do this kind of translation are serious scholars taking a > break from serious scholastics, and are only interested in doing things > they can be proud of--not unlike restoring a half-century old bit of > electronics to working condition...[3] I also recently found Dr Seuss stuff translated into Latin. How about Asterix in Gaelic? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Mon May 16 15:18:15 2011 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 15:18:15 -0500 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110516201815.GA18778@RawFedDogs.net> Andrew, On Thu, May 12, 2011 at 10:59:04PM +0100, Andrew Burton wrote: > Does anyone know of any good books for learning latin? I'm currently participating in an online study group that's using An Easy Method for Beginners in Latin by Albert Harkness as a text. The book is available as a PDF from Archive.org. There are usually a number of beginner, and advanced, study groups under way or forming on the LatinStudy mailing list. Most beginner groups on that list use Wheelock's, but a few use other texts. Info on the LatinStudy mailing list can be found at: http://www.quasillum.com/study/latinstudy.php -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 16 15:33:47 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 13:33:47 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> I've often wondered about Google Language Tools and the methods used to render meaningful translations. Recently, I took the Lithuanian national anthem and cranked it into Google Language and received a word-for-word match with a "poetic translation found on the web. Unfortunately, there was very little literal correspondence with the actual words. On another forum, I spouted Horace's "brevis esse laboro, obscurus fio" and someone reported that they'd fed it into Google Language Tools Latin translator and received "To be brief, dance with ugly women". I know that Google Latin is in the alpha stage, but it brought not a chuckle, but a belly laugh. Google's Latin tool: http://translate.google.com/?sl=la&tl=en#la|en| --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 16 15:41:44 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 13:41:44 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: My favorite Latin story: I used to work in a law firm as a legal assistant, and heard this from one of the firm's partners who'd been in the courtroom on this particular day. A lawyer was making his argument to the judge and concluded with, "And well, your honor, res ipsa loquitur." The judge asked him what that phrase meant and the lawyer, looking puzzled, started explaining the legal theory. The judge stopped him and demanded for the literal translation of the Latin phrase. When the (young) lawyer couldn't provide it, the judge threw him out of his courtroom.... -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 1:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: latin stuff > > I've often wondered about Google Language Tools and the methods used > to render meaningful translations. > > Recently, I took the Lithuanian national anthem and cranked it into > Google Language and received a word-for-word match with a "poetic > translation found on the web. Unfortunately, there was very little > literal correspondence with the actual words. > > On another forum, I spouted Horace's "brevis esse laboro, obscurus > fio" and someone reported that they'd fed it into Google Language > Tools Latin translator and received "To be brief, dance with ugly > women". I know that Google Latin is in the alpha stage, but it > brought not a chuckle, but a belly laugh. > > Google's Latin tool: > > http://translate.google.com/?sl=la&tl=en#la|en| > > --Chuck > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 16 15:44:53 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 13:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 May 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've often wondered about Google Language Tools and the methods used > to render meaningful translations. > > Recently, I took the Lithuanian national anthem and cranked it into > Google Language and received a word-for-word match with a "poetic > translation found on the web. Unfortunately, there was very little > literal correspondence with the actual words. > > On another forum, I spouted Horace's "brevis esse laboro, obscurus > fio" and someone reported that they'd fed it into Google Language > Tools Latin translator and received "To be brief, dance with ugly > women". I know that Google Latin is in the alpha stage, but it > brought not a chuckle, but a belly laugh. > > Google's Latin tool: > > http://translate.google.com/?sl=la&tl=en#la|en| That's what I used to come up with the stuff I originally posted. I had to be very careful when selecting words because it would too easily get sidetracked into something nonsensical. Vulgarity is particularly troublesome. For example, "I fart in your general direction" gets translated into "Pedere in I generali instructione", which seems to be just gibberish of something to do with giving orders to an officer's feet. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon May 16 16:20:43 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:20:43 -0500 Subject: IBM 3741 available for rescue In-Reply-To: <622549.28524.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <622549.28524.qm@smtp102.sbc.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201105162121.p4GLLC6C006482@billY.EZWIND.NET> Thank you for finding me! Although I don't have a personal interest in that particular computer, I will forward your email to the Classic Computer Collector mailing list, and someone else may contact you directly. - John Like: http://musi.fwtunesco.org/wolz/index.html Location: http://goo.gl/cvD1E At 03:27 PM 5/16/2011, you wrote: >John: > >I?m not sure if you are interested, but I have a working IBM 3741. It has one 8? floppy and does appear to be loading tax software of some type. The monitor, keyboard, etc. all seems to work. It is in pretty clean condition with everything present. It even has an old parallel computer cable and plug. > >I hate to haul it to the dump and would love to give it to someone who will appreciate it for what it is ? the first commercial computer to move from punch cards to floppy. > >Please let me know if you are interested or if you know someone else who may be interested. > >I am located in New London, WI. > >Thanks, > >Henry >HenryM at inwia.org > >Notice of Confidentiality: This email, and any attachments, is intended only for the use of the addressee(s) and may contain privileged, private, or confidential information. Any distribution, reading, copying or use of this communication and any attachments by anyone other than the addressee is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this email in error, please immediately notify me by email (by replying to this message) or by phone ( 920-982-3244) and permanently destroy or delete the original and any copy or printout of this email and any attachments. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 16 16:26:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 17:26:56 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com> <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On another forum, I spouted Horace's ?"brevis esse laboro, obscurus > fio" and someone reported that they'd fed it into Google Language > Tools Latin translator and received "To be brief, dance with ugly > women". ?I know that Google Latin is in the alpha stage, but it > brought not a chuckle, but a belly laugh. Yep. It still works. Good thing I knew it was coming or you'd owe me a keyboard. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 16 16:34:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 14:34:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110516142106.A4744@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 16 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: > I also recently found Dr Seuss stuff translated into Latin. How about > Asterix in Gaelic? Yes, but is there a translation of Knuth, K&R, or McCracken ("Guide to FORTRAN Programming") in Latin? (I used to have a copy of McCracken in Spanish. When a cow- orker needed to learn Spanish, it was a perfect tool.) Back in the good old days, when students knew languages, I used to start my microcomputer operating systems class with "DOS ex omnes est divisa in partes tres" Nowadays, nobody understands, and want to know, "what do I click on?", rather than "how does it work?" I would be willing to learn Greek just to read whatever Diogenes wrote. But, alas, NOTHING seems to have survived, except for anecdotes that have been mistranslated and redone by people with agendas. (e.g. giving Plato a plucked chicken) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 16 16:58:37 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 15:58:37 -0600 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4DD00E2F.12501.195D8CA@cclist.sydex.com> <4DD127BB.25996.1157396@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DD19E0D.1020702@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/16/2011 3:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On another forum, I spouted Horace's "brevis esse laboro, obscurus >> fio" and someone reported that they'd fed it into Google Language >> Tools Latin translator and received "To be brief, dance with ugly >> women". I know that Google Latin is in the alpha stage, but it >> brought not a chuckle, but a belly laugh. > > Yep. It still works. Good thing I knew it was coming or you'd owe > me a keyboard. > > -ethan > English or Latin keyboard? From RichA at vulcan.com Mon May 16 17:04:14 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 15:04:14 -0700 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <20110516142106.A4744@shell.lmi.net> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110516142106.A4744@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:34 PM On Mon, 16 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: >> I also recently found Dr Seuss stuff translated into Latin. How about >> Asterix in Gaelic? I don't like Geisel's stuff, probably due to my sisters' over-reading of it, so I'd never be tempted. > Yes, but is there a translation of Knuth, K&R, or McCracken > ("Guide to FORTRAN Programming") in Latin? > (I used to have a copy of McCracken in Spanish. When a cow- > orker needed to learn Spanish, it was a perfect tool.) Probably not, but it could be done if someone felt the urge. Well, maybe not Knuth. > Back in the good old days, when students knew languages, I > used to start my microcomputer operating systems class with > "DOS ex omnes est divisa in partes tres" > Nowadays, nobody understands, and want to know, > "what do I click on?", rather than "how does it work?" ITYM "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres." We'll assume that DOS is animate; were it neuter, make it "DOS est omne divisum in partes tres." > I would be willing to learn Greek just to read whatever > Diogenes wrote. But, alas, NOTHING seems to have survived, > except for anecdotes that have been mistranslated and > redone by people with agendas. (e.g. giving Plato a > plucked chicken) It's unlikely that Diogenes actually wrote anything. Like Socrates or Herakleitos, he would simply have been in the habit of lecturing his followers, and dropping the occasional _epos kalos_ ("bon mot"). As for "when students knew languages", it seems that Latin is beginning to make a comeback in parts of the US education system. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 16 17:04:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 18:04:54 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> On 5/13/11 1:48 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > fig-FORTH? I'm pretty sure there was at least one (buggy?) version for > PDP-11; I think maybe it ran on top of RSX-11M because I remember trying > to type it in on UTCSR's RSX-11M system. I would expect drivers might be > relatively easy to write in FORTH, but I don't know what other OS > services might pose a challenge. If you want a really nice standalone FORTH for the PDP-11, there's SOL-11 by Nils M. Holm. It's a bit different from standard FORTH, but not terribly so. It is a pleasure to use; I like it very much. I spoke with Nils about it maybe 3-4 years ago, and he is no longer interested in maintaining it. It's interesting enough that I think it should continue to be maintained, by someone else if necessary. In particular, I'd love to see additional mass storage drivers written for it, which I may tackle myself when life calms down a bit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From arcarlini at iee.org Mon May 16 17:25:32 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 23:25:32 +0100 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <462EF2AF0B3149B5AA08FBB4E09AE273@ANTONIOPC> Rich Alderson [RichA at vulcan.com] wrote: > ITYM "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres." We'll assume > that DOS is animate; were it neuter, make it "DOS est omne divisum in > partes tres." Surely DOS is as animated as Gaul? Possibly more so (even if restricted to CGA graphics ...) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From IanK at vulcan.com Mon May 16 17:38:20 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 15:38:20 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:05 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board > > On 5/13/11 1:48 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > > fig-FORTH? I'm pretty sure there was at least one (buggy?) version > for > > PDP-11; I think maybe it ran on top of RSX-11M because I remember > trying > > to type it in on UTCSR's RSX-11M system. I would expect drivers might > be > > relatively easy to write in FORTH, but I don't know what other OS > > services might pose a challenge. > > If you want a really nice standalone FORTH for the PDP-11, there's > SOL-11 by Nils M. Holm. It's a bit different from standard FORTH, but > not terribly so. It is a pleasure to use; I like it very much. > > I spoke with Nils about it maybe 3-4 years ago, and he is no longer > interested in maintaining it. It's interesting enough that I think it > should continue to be maintained, by someone else if necessary. In > particular, I'd love to see additional mass storage drivers written for > it, which I may tackle myself when life calms down a bit. > I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run on a machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with 4kW of memory. :-) -- Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 16 18:08:37 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110516142106.A4744@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110516152304.R8547@shell.lmi.net> > > Yes, but is there a translation of Knuth, K&R, or McCracken > > ("Guide to FORTRAN Programming") in Latin? > > (I used to have a copy of McCracken in Spanish. When a cow- > > orker needed to learn Spanish, it was a perfect tool.) On Mon, 16 May 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > Probably not, but it could be done if someone felt the urge. > Well, maybe not Knuth. Even with a finite number of monkeys, it could probably be done before he gets his next volume out. > ITYM "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres." You are absolutely correct. I could try to make an excuse that it's been 10 years since I taught that class, and all quotes that i used were written on the outline that I worked from. But, the reality is, that with insufficiently frequent refresh, . . . > > I would be willing to learn Greek just to read whatever > > Diogenes wrote. But, alas, NOTHING seems to have survived, > > except for anecdotes that have been mistranslated and > > redone by people with agendas. (e.g. giving Plato a > > plucked chicken) > It's unlikely that Diogenes actually wrote anything. Like Socrates or > Herakleitos, he would simply have been in the habit of lecturing his > followers, and dropping the occasional _epos kalos_ ("bon mot"). Actually, at least one of those unreliable, inaccurate quotes seems to me to explicitly mention his writings. "Once a man begged Diogenes to lend him one of his books. 'You are a silly fellow', said Diogenes. "You would not eat painted figs, but real ones; yet you overlook the genuine practice of virtue, and seek for what is merely written.'" (for "his books", keep in mind that Diogenes did not keep possessions, such as writings of others) > As for "when students knew languages", it seems that Latin is beginning > to make a comeback in parts of the US education system. Would 'twere so! Due to scholarship?, or due to religious domination of the educational system? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon May 16 18:38:39 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:38:39 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/16/11 6:04 PM, "Rich Alderson" wrote: > As for "when students knew languages", it seems that Latin is beginning > to make a comeback in parts of the US education system. Interesting that you say that. My daughter took Latin last year (5th Grade) and now takes "Latin at Lunch" in 6th Grade. Not to get too OT, but our district (Syosset CSD in New York) starts language in kindergarten and each year of grammar school exposes the kids to a different language (Chinese, Russian, Spanish, French, Italian and Latin). Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 16 18:53:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 16:53:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110516164822.F8547@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 16 May 2011, Richard Cini wrote: > Not to get too OT, but our district (Syosset CSD in New York) starts > language in kindergarten and each year of grammar school exposes the kids to > a different language (Chinese, Russian, Spanish, French, Italian and Latin). WOW! That is wonderful! I am impressed. Add in FORTRAN, COBOL, APL, C, Perl, Python, etc. and we will be back ON-topic! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon May 16 19:04:02 2011 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 20:04:02 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20110516142106.A4744@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DD1BB72.9070201@ptdprolog.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Fred Cisin > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 2:34 PM > > On Mon, 16 May 2011, David Griffith wrote: > >>> I also recently found Dr Seuss stuff translated into Latin. How about >>> Asterix in Gaelic? > > I don't like Geisel's stuff, probably due to my sisters' over-reading of > it, so I'd never be tempted. > >> Yes, but is there a translation of Knuth, K&R, or McCracken >> ("Guide to FORTRAN Programming") in Latin? >> (I used to have a copy of McCracken in Spanish. When a cow- >> orker needed to learn Spanish, it was a perfect tool.) > > Probably not, but it could be done if someone felt the urge. > > Well, maybe not Knuth. > >> Back in the good old days, when students knew languages, I >> used to start my microcomputer operating systems class with >> "DOS ex omnes est divisa in partes tres" >> Nowadays, nobody understands, and want to know, >> "what do I click on?", rather than "how does it work?" > > ITYM "DOS est omnis divisa in partes tres." We'll assume that DOS is > animate; were it neuter, make it "DOS est omne divisum in partes tres." > >> I would be willing to learn Greek just to read whatever >> Diogenes wrote. But, alas, NOTHING seems to have survived, >> except for anecdotes that have been mistranslated and >> redone by people with agendas. (e.g. giving Plato a >> plucked chicken) > > It's unlikely that Diogenes actually wrote anything. Like Socrates or > Herakleitos, he would simply have been in the habit of lecturing his > followers, and dropping the occasional _epos kalos_ ("bon mot"). > > As for "when students knew languages", it seems that Latin is beginning > to make a comeback in parts of the US education system. > My daughter's Catholic high school is the last school in our county to have Latin as a language and I fear it may not be around next year when my son starts high school. They are having problems finding a teacher they can afford. Up until a few years ago several of the public schools had it and they had a competition between the schools. Mark From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon May 16 19:07:09 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 20:07:09 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <20110516164822.F8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 5/16/11 7:53 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2011, Richard Cini wrote: >> Not to get too OT, but our district (Syosset CSD in New York) starts >> language in kindergarten and each year of grammar school exposes the kids to >> a different language (Chinese, Russian, Spanish, French, Italian and Latin). > > WOW! > That is wonderful! I am impressed. > > Add in FORTRAN, COBOL, APL, C, Perl, Python, etc. and we will be back > ON-topic! > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Ok, point well taken. To bring language learning back on-topic to computers, they learn no programming languages at all, even BASIC, although one of the elective courses in high school is Web programming and design. Still, only an elective and not required. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From madodel at ptdprolog.net Mon May 16 19:11:42 2011 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 20:11:42 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DD1BD3E.6060908@ptdprolog.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> If you're really nutty, you can read the Latin versions of the Harry >>> Potter series. >> >> You had better be able to read Cicero and Caesar when you tackle those. >> >> Besides the first two books in Latin (and the first in classical Greek), >> I also have _Tela Charlottae_, _Winnie-ille-Pu_[1] and _Winnie-ille-Pu >> Semper Ludet_,[2] and _Ferdinandus Taurum_. One of these days I'll pick >> up _Alice in terra mirabile_ and _Alice per speculo_, and maybe some >> Asterix or Tin-tin or Babar. >> >> The people who do this kind of translation are serious scholars taking a >> break from serious scholastics, and are only interested in doing things >> they can be proud of--not unlike restoring a half-century old bit of >> electronics to working condition...[3] > > I also recently found Dr Seuss stuff translated into Latin. How about > Asterix in Gaelic? > My daughter has several books including the Cat in the Hat and Winnie the Pooh in Latin. There is also a Latin version of wikipedia http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_prima I don't think they have any classic computer information on it though. Mark From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon May 16 19:15:00 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 17:15:00 -0700 Subject: Decwriter iii's for rescue in Astoria Oregon Message-ID: I just uncovered a couple of Decwriter IIIs that need to go. They have been stored outside but dry (plastic, foam, plastic and tarp). I got them from the basement of an automobile dealership auction about 4 years ago. Free if picked up soon. I don't want to take them apart. I could deliver from Seattle to Eugene (I-5) for gas. Otherwise they will be scrapped. Parts could be available including the print heads. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 16 19:21:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 17:21:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <4DD1BD3E.6060908@ptdprolog.net> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4DD1BD3E.6060908@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20110516172030.S8547@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 16 May 2011, madodel wrote: > My daughter has several books including the Cat in the Hat and Winnie the > Pooh in Latin. There is also a Latin version of wikipedia > http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_prima I don't think they have any > classic computer information on it though. The original documentation and technical manuals for the Antikytheran device were probably in Greek. From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Mon May 16 19:35:17 2011 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 20:35:17 -0400 Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? Message-ID: A while ago, cray-cyber.org, which used to provide online access to various classic CDC and Cray supercomputers went down so that the owners could move the collection to a new home, with a note that access to the supercomputers would become available again in late 2010 or early 2011. Now we're almost halfway through 2011 and things are still down AND there's no word on what's up? Does anybody know what's going on here? Is the only public access classic supercomputer cluster in the world down for good? Mike From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 16 19:49:34 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 17:49:34 -0700 Subject: Important Xref data question. Message-ID: Hey! I?m sick and tired of trying to find a good Xref database for componants, and am considering making my own. What information do you consider critical in cross referencing a part? From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon May 16 20:18:50 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 21:18:50 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <20110516152304.R8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0f193563f4b381e013a6cbf33a1d10ee@bellsouth.net> >> Probably not, but it could be done if someone felt the urge. >> Well, maybe not Knuth. > > Even with a finite number of monkeys, > it could probably be done before he gets his next volume out. Vol 4A is out already. Not sure how long 4B will be, but I wouldn't be surprised to see it in 2 to 3 years. BLS From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 16 21:05:49 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 19:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <0f193563f4b381e013a6cbf33a1d10ee@bellsouth.net> References: <0f193563f4b381e013a6cbf33a1d10ee@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20110516183240.T8547@shell.lmi.net> > >> Probably not, but it could be done if someone felt the urge. > >> Well, maybe not Knuth. > > Even with a finite number of monkeys, > > it could probably be done before he gets his next volume out. On Mon, 16 May 2011 blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: > Vol 4A is out already. Not sure how long 4B will be, but > I wouldn't be surprised to see it in 2 to 3 years. I would. Would his "next volume" be #4B, or #5? Notice the length of time between first release of #3 ("Sorting and Searching") and PART of #4. Only slightly longer than it takes me to READ it! (His works have the highest information density of anything that I've ever read) It would be wonderful if he were to live long enough to finish the series! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon May 16 22:16:49 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 23:16:49 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <20110516183240.T8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <39d3f21106dde66526db10dacf4e4d87@bellsouth.net> > Would his "next volume" be #4B, or #5? > Notice the length of time between first release of #3 ("Sorting and > Searching") and PART of #4. Only slightly longer than it takes me to READ > it! (His works have the highest information density of anything that I've > ever read) > > It would be wonderful if he were to live long enough to finish the series! His plan for the last several years has been to finish 4A, 4B, 4C, and 5, then to do new editions of 1-3 using MMIX and adding new material that has come along since the last editions. Then he plans to do a condensed edition of 1-5. Finally, if he lives that long and there's something to say, he'll work on 6 and 7. The time between 3 and 4A was certainly long, even figuring on 10 years or so for TeX. But even though no new TAOCP material appeared until about 7 years ago, he was writing other stuff. Given that he's got enough of the Ch 7 material together that he's got one volume through the publication process, there's a good chance the tme between 4A. 4B, and 4C will be more like the time between the first editions of 1, 2, and 3 than that between 3 and 4A. BLS From ken at seefried.com Mon May 16 22:38:43 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 23:38:43 -0400 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD1EDC3.70607@seefried.com> On 5/16/11 8:21 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > I used to have a copy of McCracken in Spanish. I have a Chinese language (Mandrin) Fortran textbook. Several, actually. Didn't help a bit. KJ From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon May 16 07:08:45 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 16 May 2011 08:08:45 -0400 Subject: Variac and reforming caps... Message-ID: > From:?Geoffrey Reed > For general use on old personal computer systems, S100, Kaypro, etc.... > Would a 5A variac be sufficient? > > And is there any write ups anywhere on how to use the variac when powering > up a system that hasn?t been powered up in > 10 years? There is lots of information available on reforming capactors. Some of it is useful. This is good introduction: http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/ A Variac can be used to reform caps in a linear power supply. Linear power supplies were common in older computers. The RICM recently used a Variac to reform capacitors during the resurection of a PDP-8/S. The power supplies in the 8/S were linear ferroresonant design, common in DEC equipment. With these power supplies the voltage on the capacitors will slowly increase in relation to the Variac output until you reach about 45 VAC. At that point the ferroresonant circuit kicks in and the output goes to full voltage. The big electrolytic filter caps survived this, but eventually the AC capacitors in the ferroresonant circuit failed. Replacements for those are easy to find. Newer systems, like the Kaypro, probably have a switching power supply. Switching power supplies usually will not have any outout until the Variac reaches the minimum acceptable input voltage for the power supply, usually something like 85-90 VAC. At that point the power supply turns on and tries to make the full output voltage. That can be really tough on old electrolytic capacitors. Eric Smith, as part of the PDP-1 restoration project at the CHM, developed software to control an Agilent power supply and very carefully reform capacitors. This is probably the best solution. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/wrec/ -- Michael Thompson From doug at doughq.com Mon May 16 20:39:38 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:39:38 +1000 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Would SOL-11 run on an 11/34 or a 11/04? On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 8:38 AM, Ian King wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > > Sent: Monday, May 16, 2011 3:05 PM > > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board > > > > On 5/13/11 1:48 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > > > fig-FORTH? I'm pretty sure there was at least one (buggy?) version > > for > > > PDP-11; I think maybe it ran on top of RSX-11M because I remember > > trying > > > to type it in on UTCSR's RSX-11M system. I would expect drivers might > > be > > > relatively easy to write in FORTH, but I don't know what other OS > > > services might pose a challenge. > > > > If you want a really nice standalone FORTH for the PDP-11, there's > > SOL-11 by Nils M. Holm. It's a bit different from standard FORTH, but > > not terribly so. It is a pleasure to use; I like it very much. > > > > I spoke with Nils about it maybe 3-4 years ago, and he is no longer > > interested in maintaining it. It's interesting enough that I think it > > should continue to be maintained, by someone else if necessary. In > > particular, I'd love to see additional mass storage drivers written for > > it, which I may tackle myself when life calms down a bit. > > > > I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run on a > machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with 4kW of memory. > :-) -- Ian > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue May 17 01:50:29 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 07:50:29 +0100 Subject: Important Xref data question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: To me there are a number of aspects. Equipment makers part number to actual part number eg HP 1820-xxxx 74lsxxx there are some lists you can start to populate your database Component manufacturers second sourcing eg a Texas SN74xx to National DM74xx A work alike and can be used to replace some specs may be better NEC V20 (?PD70108) was a processor made by NEC that was a reverse-engineered, pin-compatible version of the Intel 8088 and see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20 Functional work alike but needs thought on fitting eg changing series from 74 to 74F to get something working. And cases where a component was a failure and dropped in favor of an improved b version sometimes including circuit modifications The possibilities are almost endless, the amount of data entry is huge, I did start with an HP parts table some years ago myself but other stuff got done instead. Dave Caroline On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:49 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Hey! ?I?m sick and tired of trying to find a good Xref database for > componants, and am considering making my own. ?What information do you > consider critical in cross referencing a part? > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 17 02:36:03 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 00:36:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <120570.1033.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I found this on YouTube. John Zabolitsky appears in the video, representing the Computermuseum Munchen. It looks to be a news piece on the museum. Perhaps someone who speaks German can summarize for the list. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch8XnNOEsPE --Bill From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue May 17 04:04:08 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:04:08 +0200 Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? In-Reply-To: <120570.1033.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <120570.1033.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110517090408.GA19541@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:36:03AM -0700, William Maddox wrote: > I found this on YouTube. John Zabolitsky appears in the video, representing the Computermuseum Munchen. It looks to be a news > piece on the museum. Perhaps someone who speaks German can summarize > for the list. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch8XnNOEsPE > > --Bill > My german isn't the best, but I'm pretty sure they say that the computer museum in Munich will open in the summer of 2011. If this means that they will start running the crays or not, I can't tell. /P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue May 17 04:30:55 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:30:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? In-Reply-To: <20110517090408.GA19541@Update.UU.SE> References: <120570.1033.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <20110517090408.GA19541@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 May 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 12:36:03AM -0700, William Maddox wrote: >> I found this on YouTube. John Zabolitsky appears in the video, representing the Computermuseum Munchen. It looks to be a news >> piece on the museum. Perhaps someone who speaks German can summarize >> for the list. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ch8XnNOEsPE > > My german isn't the best, but I'm pretty sure they say that the computer > museum in Munich will open in the summer of 2011. If this means that > they will start running the crays or not, I can't tell. Well, summarized they tell the story of the first computer bug. The museum will (wants to) open this summer. I don't know why Focus Online has several articles about Zabolitsky. I know other computer museums in Germany that have been open for over 14 years. I think it's all a matter of money and influence. Christian From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue May 17 05:56:36 2011 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:56:36 +0100 Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110517105636.GA32017@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 08:35:17PM -0400, Michael Kerpan wrote: > A while ago, cray-cyber.org, which used to provide online access to > various classic CDC and Cray supercomputers went down so that the > owners could move the collection to a new home, with a note that > access to the supercomputers would become available again in late 2010 > or early 2011. Now we're almost halfway through 2011 and things are > still down AND there's no word on what's up? Does anybody know what's > going on here? Is the only public access classic supercomputer cluster > in the world down for good? It's up: david at bytemark:~$ date Tue May 17 11:55:13 BST 2011 david at bytemark:~$ ssh david at login.cray-cyber.org ... ############################################################################# # Welcome to the Cray-Cyber network # # Our goal is to provide free access to supercomputers # # As those supercomputers consume lots of power, they're only # # turned on on some days - see the website for a timetable # # # # Have fun using the machines - your Cray-Cyber team # # Website: http://www.cray-cyber.org E-Mail: mail at cray-cyber.org # ############################################################################# Checking which machines are online... 1: yel.cray-cyber.org (Cray Y-MP EL)... no 2: cy960.cray-cyber.org (Cyber 960)... no 3: majestix.cray-cyber.org (Control Data 4680)... yes 4: o2000.cray-cyber.org (SGI Origin 2000)... no 5: e10k.cray-cyber.org (SUN Enterprise 10000)... yes 6: dtcyber.cray-cyber.org (Desktop Cyber)... yes 7: cdcnet.cray-cyber.org (CDCNET Device Interface)... yes -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world fdisk format reinstall, doo-dah, doo-dah; fdisk format reinstall, it's the Windows way From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue May 17 07:43:47 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 08:43:47 -0400 Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? In-Reply-To: <20110517105636.GA32017@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <20110517105636.GA32017@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 6:56 AM, David Cantrell wrote: > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 08:35:17PM -0400, Michael Kerpan wrote: > >> A while ago, cray-cyber.org, which used to provide online access to >> various classic CDC and Cray supercomputers went down so that the >> owners could move the collection to a new home, with a note that >> access to the supercomputers would become available again in late 2010 >> or early 2011. Now we're almost halfway through 2011 and things are >> still down AND there's no word on what's up? Does anybody know what's >> going on here? Is the only public access classic supercomputer cluster >> in the world down for good? > > It's up: > > david at bytemark:~$ date > Tue May 17 11:55:13 BST 2011 > david at bytemark:~$ ssh david at login.cray-cyber.org > ... > ############################################################################# > # ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Welcome to the Cray-Cyber network ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? # > # ? ? ? ? ? Our goal is to provide free access to supercomputers ? ? ? ? ? ?# > # ? ? ? ?As those supercomputers consume lots of power, they're only ? ? ? ?# > # ? ? ? ? turned on on some days - see the website for a timetable ? ? ? ? ?# > # ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? # > # ? ? ? ? ? ?Have fun using the machines - your Cray-Cyber team ? ? ? ? ? ? # > # ? Website: http://www.cray-cyber.org ? ? ? ?E-Mail: mail at cray-cyber.org ? # > ############################################################################# > > Checking which machines are online... > > 1: yel.cray-cyber.org (Cray Y-MP EL)... no > 2: cy960.cray-cyber.org (Cyber 960)... no > 3: majestix.cray-cyber.org (Control Data 4680)... yes > 4: o2000.cray-cyber.org (SGI Origin 2000)... no > 5: e10k.cray-cyber.org (SUN Enterprise 10000)... yes > 6: dtcyber.cray-cyber.org (Desktop Cyber)... yes > 7: cdcnet.cray-cyber.org (CDCNET Device Interface)... yes Very cool. It looks like they've just been too busy to update their site. Mike From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue May 17 08:11:01 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 09:11:01 -0400 Subject: Variac and reforming caps... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 8:08 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> From:?Geoffrey Reed >> For general use on old personal computer systems, S100, Kaypro, etc.... >> Would a 5A variac be sufficient? >> >> And is there any write ups anywhere on how to use the variac when powering >> up a system that hasn?t been powered up in > 10 years? > > There is lots of information available on reforming capactors. Some of > it is useful. > This is good introduction: http://www.nmr.mgh.harvard.edu/~reese/electrolytics/ > > A Variac can be used to reform caps in a linear power supply. Linear > power supplies were common in older computers. The RICM recently used > a Variac to reform capacitors during the resurection of a PDP-8/S. The > power supplies in the 8/S were linear ferroresonant design, common in > DEC equipment. With these power supplies the voltage on the capacitors > will slowly increase in relation to the Variac output until you reach > about 45 VAC. At that point the ferroresonant circuit kicks in and the > output goes to full voltage. The big electrolytic filter caps survived > this, but eventually the AC capacitors in the ferroresonant circuit > failed. Replacements for those are easy to find. > > Newer systems, like the Kaypro, probably have a switching power > supply. Switching power supplies usually will not have any outout > until the Variac reaches the minimum acceptable input voltage for the > power supply, usually something like 85-90 VAC. At that point the > power supply turns on and tries to make the full output voltage. That > can be really tough on old electrolytic capacitors. > > Eric Smith, as part of the PDP-1 restoration project at the CHM, > developed software to control an Agilent power supply and very > carefully reform capacitors. This is probably the best solution. > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/wrec/ > > -- > Michael Thompson > One thing that puzzles me is that all these things seem to imply powering the system's own power supply with a Variac rather than bypassing it. Wouldn't it be possible to have connect a linear transformer with the proper output voltages to a backplane and then power that with the Variac to reform the caps only switching back to the stock supply once the caps have been reformed? Mike From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue May 17 10:01:10 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:01:10 -0500 Subject: pdp 8a loader? Message-ID: hi is there something like a abs loader for the pdp11??? reading my manual see somthing called rim loader but i think i am missing it inless its one of these? http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg where its curently at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDwBZPX_Qjo From doc at vaxen.net Tue May 17 10:09:34 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:09:34 -0500 Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <20110516172030.S8547@shell.lmi.net> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4DD1BD3E.6060908@ptdprolog.net> <20110516172030.S8547@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DD28FAE.5070505@vaxen.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 16 May 2011, madodel wrote: >> My daughter has several books including the Cat in the Hat and Winnie the >> Pooh in Latin. There is also a Latin version of wikipedia >> http://la.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagina_prima I don't think they have any >> classic computer information on it though. > > The original documentation and technical manuals for the Antikytheran > device were probably in Greek. IIRC, the documentation (at least the owner's manual) was printed ON the Antikytheran device, so that should be easily determined.... Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 17 10:16:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:16:24 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DD29148.7020309@neurotica.com> On 5/16/11 9:39 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Would SOL-11 run on an 11/34 or a 11/04? It will run on an 11/34, but not an 11/04. It requires EIS, which the 11/04 lacks. The documentation states that the author considers the EIS requirement to be a bug. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 17 10:49:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:49:41 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DD29915.8060808@neurotica.com> On 5/16/11 6:38 PM, Ian King wrote: > I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run > on a machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with 4kW > of memory. :-) -- Ian You mean EIS; it doesn't require an EAE. But yes, I'd like to do that as well. It requires 28kW of RAM though. I doubt it'll be easy to trim that down much. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 06:39:15 2011 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 04:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <487344.53089.qm@web161313.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This is what I received recently from them... Hello Brian, we are currently online with a CDDC 4680 (MIPS / EP/IX Machine) and a SUN Enterprise10000. The Cyber 960 is not ready for operation yet because of some cable-issues caused by the move. Regarding the Cray Y-MP EL we are working on bringing up the J90 as an replacement. Best regards Frederik Meerwaldt ________________________________ From: Michael Kerpan To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, May 16, 2011 8:35:17 PM Subject: Cray-Cyber Down for the Count? A while ago, cray-cyber.org, which used to provide online access to various classic CDC and Cray supercomputers went down so that the owners could move the collection to a new home, with a note that access to the supercomputers would become available again in late 2010 or early 2011. Now we're almost halfway through 2011 and things are still down AND there's no word on what's up? Does anybody know what's going on here? Is the only public access classic supercomputer cluster in the world down for good? Mike From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue May 17 11:09:05 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 12:09:05 -0400 Subject: Variac and reforming caps... Message-ID: >From: Michael Kerpan > One thing that puzzles me is that all these things seem to imply > powering the system's own power supply with a Variac rather than > bypassing it. Wouldn't it be possible to have connect a linear > transformer with the proper output voltages to a backplane and then > power that with the Variac to reform the caps only switching back to > the stock supply once the caps have been reformed? > > Mike The Variac transformer works because the voltage is AC. The crew at the CHM used a programmable DC power supply to reform the capacitors, after they disconnected them from the system.. -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue May 17 11:11:12 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 12:11:12 -0400 Subject: PR1ME Computer SE50M Message-ID: The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a PR1ME Computer that says it is a model SE50M on the back of the CPU cabinet. I can't find any reference to that model number. Any idea how to identify this system? https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/prime-computer-se50m -- Michael Thompson From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 17 11:44:20 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 09:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PR1ME Computer SE50M In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <621956.5619.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 5/17/11, Michael Thompson wrote: > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has > a PR1ME Computer that says it is > a model SE50M on the back of the CPU cabinet. I can't find > any > reference to that model number. Any idea how to identify > this system? That looks kind of like a 9950, but there were several 9000 series machines with the same control panel/cabinet though. Take the microcode disk out of the drive (the one on the left), and there should be a number on it. (DSK-xxx). I can look the microcode part number up in my manuals and tell you what CPU it has. -Ian From drb at msu.edu Tue May 17 12:10:04 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 13:10:04 -0400 Subject: PR1ME Computer SE50M In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 17 May 2011 12:11:12 EDT.) References: Message-ID: <20110517171004.38084A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a PR1ME Computer that says it is a > model SE50M on the back of the CPU cabinet. I can't find any reference > to that model number. Any idea how to identify this system? The CPU boards are in the upper backplane, the two or three boards connected via top-hats. They'll have a label on the back edge giving the board model number. I can probably look them up from that. The numbers will be in one of two formats: 9999-999, or TLA10999-999. De From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue May 17 12:50:30 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 13:50:30 -0400 Subject: cleaning out collection In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DD2B566.60009@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi, Making room in my basement. I have the following: three 5.25 Full Height Dec hard drives probably from microvax BA123 with 4 disks and a 3104, 7168, 7169, 7546, 7504, 7606, 7609, 7609 two DSD/Qualogy 880 10 or so Maxtor drives (RD52, RD53 size?) spare 8 inch winchester for the DSD boxes BA11 with some boards a 16 x 6 backplane full of qbus boards two more smaller backplanes with some qbus boards. I'm off to Dayton, but when I return, this stuff needs to be gone by the end of the month. First come, first served, FREE, pickup only. Joe From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 17 13:11:04 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:11:04 -0700 Subject: PR1ME Computer SE50M In-Reply-To: <621956.5619.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <621956.5619.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 9:44 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PR1ME Computer SE50M > > --- On Tue, 5/17/11, Michael Thompson > wrote: > > > The Rhode Island Computer Museum has > > a PR1ME Computer that says it is > > a model SE50M on the back of the CPU cabinet. I can't find > > any > > reference to that model number. Any idea how to identify > > this system? > > That looks kind of like a 9950, but there were several 9000 series > machines with the same control panel/cabinet though. Take the microcode > disk out of the drive (the one on the left), and there should be a > number on it. (DSK-xxx). I can look the microcode part number up in my > manuals and tell you what CPU it has. > > -Ian One of my coworkers also suggests it's likely a 9950, definitely a later machine intended as a departmental resource. He also has no idea where the SE50M designation came from. -- Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 17 13:16:25 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:16:25 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <4DD29915.8060808@neurotica.com> References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> <4DD29915.8060808@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DD2BB79.5000503@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/16/11 6:38 PM, Ian King wrote: >> I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run >> on a machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with 4kW >> of memory. :-) -- Ian > > You mean EIS; it doesn't require an EAE. But yes, I'd like to do that as > well. > > It requires 28kW of RAM though. I doubt it'll be easy to trim that down > much. EIS? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 17 13:26:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:26:52 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <4DD2BB79.5000503@gmail.com> References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> <4DD29915.8060808@neurotica.com> <4DD2BB79.5000503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DD2BDEC.6030300@neurotica.com> On 5/17/11 2:16 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run >>> on a machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with 4kW >>> of memory. :-) -- Ian >> >> You mean EIS; it doesn't require an EAE. But yes, I'd like to do that as >> well. >> >> It requires 28kW of RAM though. I doubt it'll be easy to trim that down >> much. > > EIS? Extended Instruction Set. Integer multiply/divide and arithmetic shift instructions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 17 13:35:08 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 11:35:08 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <4DD2BDEC.6030300@neurotica.com> References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> <4DD29915.8060808@neurotica.com> <4DD2BB79.5000503@gmail.com> <4DD2BDEC.6030300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:27 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board > > On 5/17/11 2:16 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>> I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run > >>> on a machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with > 4kW > >>> of memory. :-) -- Ian > >> > >> You mean EIS; it doesn't require an EAE. But yes, I'd like to do > that as > >> well. > >> > >> It requires 28kW of RAM though. I doubt it'll be easy to trim that > down > >> much. > > > > EIS? > > Extended Instruction Set. Integer multiply/divide and arithmetic > shift instructions. > Yup, that's what I meant, EIS. Been playing with -8's too much lately. It's been a while since I messed around with SOL-11, but I didn't recall it being that big. -- Ian From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue May 17 13:51:49 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 10:51:49 -0800 Subject: cleaning out collection In-Reply-To: <4DD2B566.60009@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <2978F0A9BFD.000002CEn0body.h0me@inbox.com> And you're located where? > -----Original Message----- > From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu > Sent: Tue, 17 May 2011 13:50:30 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: cleaning out collection > > > Hi, > > Making room in my basement. I have the following: > > three 5.25 Full Height Dec hard drives probably from microvax > BA123 with 4 disks and a 3104, 7168, 7169, 7546, 7504, 7606, 7609, 7609 > > two DSD/Qualogy 880 > 10 or so Maxtor drives (RD52, RD53 size?) > spare 8 inch winchester for the DSD boxes > BA11 with some boards > a 16 x 6 backplane full of qbus boards > two more smaller backplanes with some qbus boards. > > I'm off to Dayton, but when I return, this stuff needs to be gone by the > end of the month. First come, first served, FREE, pickup only. > > Joe ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue May 17 14:12:58 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 12:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for regional collectors Message-ID: <153117.87708.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I run the website http://oldcomputers.net Almost every day I get offers from people wanting to get rid of their old computers, sometimes for free. Most of the time, though, the systems aren't worth the money to ship across the country to me in California. Therefore I am looking for other collectors across the country (or world) who wouldn't mind being recipients of mid or low value computers. Send me you name, location, email, and what you collect and I'll see if I can send some stuff your way. Do not REPLY, instead send to tosteve at yahoo.com Thank- Steven Stengel http://oldcomputers.net From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue May 17 14:13:02 2011 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 12:13:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for regional collectors Message-ID: <324109.39536.qm@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hi, I run the website http://oldcomputers.net Almost every day I get offers from people wanting to get rid of their old computers, sometimes for free. Most of the time, though, the systems aren't worth the money to ship across the country to me in California. Therefore I am looking for other collectors across the country (or world) who wouldn't mind being recipients of mid or low value computers. Send me you name, location, email, and what you collect and I'll see if I can send some stuff your way. Do not REPLY, instead send to tosteve at yahoo.com Thank- Steven Stengel http://oldcomputers.net From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 17 14:22:40 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:22:40 -0500 Subject: cleaning out collection In-Reply-To: <2978F0A9BFD.000002CEn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> <4DD2B566.60009@splab.cas.neu.edu> <2978F0A9BFD.000002CEn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:51 PM, N0body H0me wrote: > > And you're located where? Guessing Boston area, from the neu.edu address. From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue May 17 14:48:33 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:48:33 -0400 Subject: cleaning out collection, update In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DD2D111.7070403@splab.cas.neu.edu> Sorry I forgot. I am in Eastern MA, driving to Dayton. Might have room for some stuff. It's a long drive, I don't want to stray too much from the beaten path, or stop too long anywhere. We'll be going out the NY thruway, and along the lakes, if I remember. If there is too much effort involved to bring stuff, it'll cost. However, I already promised (a loonng time ago) Patrick to give him some boards, so I'm dragging some stuff already. Much better to grab all the stuff at my house, one big lot, but I'll consider alternatives. Joe From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 17 14:50:00 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 13:50:00 -0600 Subject: [rescue] ACM Publications, circa 1970, in Atlanta GA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If there's anyone in Atlanta that can rescue the SIGGRAPH, SIGCHI and Journal of Computing History portions of it, I'll cover shipping costs to me and give them some money for their time. In article , Sparr writes: > I apologize for the poor timing of this. Had I known there was > interest, and that they were being discarded, earlier I would have > made better arrangements. > > They are at 675 Metropolitan Pkwy, Atlanta GA 30310. The gate code to > enter the complex is 9171* and they are stacked near the dumpsters at > the middle of the complex. > > They include publications from every SIG, including SIGGRAPH and > SIGPLAN and SIGCHI and ... > > The stack has suffered a few minutes of rain damage. I would say that > 10% of them got wet, although they are in a relatively dense stack on > a pallet so the ones on the bottom and in the middle are still fine. > > On Mon, May 16, 2011 at 9:45 AM, Sparr wrote: > > A local geek organization is discarding a few thousand ACM > > publications from around 1968-1982. It includes complete years of > > Transactions, Journals, conference programs, various periodicals, etc. > > It's about one pallet load of boxes, so it would be expensive and > > complicated to ship. If anyone is willing and able to rescue them > > before they get recycled, let me know. > _______________________________________________ > rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue > -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vintagecoder at aol.com Tue May 17 15:00:02 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:00:02 +0000 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow Message-ID: <201105172000.p4HJxwrF006518@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> This is sort of addressed to Al but if anybody else has a scanned copy or knows where to find one that would be great. Al, do you have a copy of the Borland Turbo Assembler doc for v5? I check bitsavers once in a while and have not found it. Do you have any Borland doc you have not put up on the site and if so do you have a list and any ETA? Thank you. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68X, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 13:10:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 19:10:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 16, 11 03:38:20 pm Message-ID: > I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run on a m= > achine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with 4kW of memory. = Do you mean EAE (which is an add-on board for any Unibus PDP11 and is not easiy to find) or EIS (which is the extended instruciton set present in many PDP11) here? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 17 14:41:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 20:41:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Important Xref data question. In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at May 17, 11 07:50:29 am Message-ID: > > To me there are a number of aspects. > Equipment makers part number to actual part number > eg HP 1820-xxxx 74lsxxx there are some lists you can start to > populate your database Such equivalents lists were published in HP Bench Briefs, which are on the web somewhere. Be warned that later lists do not necessarily incldue devices that were on earlier lists (it appears that a device was only included if it was used in an instrument still supported by HP), so you may need to check several lists to find the device > Functional work alike but needs thought on fitting > eg changing series from 74 to 74F to get something working. But watch out for devices which are not the same in differnet families. The common examples are TTL And-Or-Invert gates which have more inputs in some familes than in others. The 74H71 and 74L71, though have almost nothing in common (well, they're both flip-flops...) > And cases where a component was a failure and dropped in favor of an > improved b version > sometimes including circuit modifications And the times that ICs have been redesigned but kept the same number. IIRC the LM379 dual audio amplifier went thoguh a redesign which even changed the number of pins on the package. This IC is used as a servo ampliifer in some hard drives (Micropolis 1200s) and as a deflection ampliifier in some vestor displays (Vectrex at least), so you might come across it in a classic computer. -tony From oe5ewl at gmail.com Tue May 17 15:32:44 2011 From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 22:32:44 +0200 Subject: cleaning out collection In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> <4DD2B566.60009@splab.cas.neu.edu> <2978F0A9BFD.000002CEn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: Hi, Joe. would you mind sending one of the QBUS Backplanes over the pond to europe? I could need this quite good. Regards, Wolfgang -- Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL Operating System Collector Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com Homepage: www.eichberger.org 2011/5/17 Jason T : > On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 1:51 PM, N0body H0me wrote: >> >> And you're located where? > > Guessing Boston area, from the neu.edu address. > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 17 16:01:23 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:01:23 -0700 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <201105172000.p4HJxwrF006518@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> References: <201105172000.p4HJxwrF006518@ims-m13.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DD2E223.1060208@bitsavers.org> On 5/17/11 1:00 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Al, do you have a copy of the Borland Turbo Assembler doc for v5? I have some docs that are not on line, I'll check if I have an assembler manual From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue May 17 16:45:37 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:45:37 -0400 Subject: cleaning out collection, update In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DD2EC81.5030405@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all, Thanks for the quick responses. So far, the list FIFO is William Donzelli Dave McGuire Patrick Finnegan Paul Anderson Nobody home Jason T Jerome Fine I'll start there. Joe From ak6dn at mindspring.com Tue May 17 16:46:45 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 14:46:45 -0700 Subject: pdp 8a loader? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD2ECC5.1030003@mindspring.com> On 5/17/2011 8:01 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > hi is there something like a abs loader for the pdp11??? reading my manual > see somthing called rim loader but i think i am missing it inless its one of > these? > http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg > > where its curently at > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDwBZPX_Qjo > > The RIM loader is a very short sequence that is typically toggled in from the console; it's job is to load RIM (read-in-mode) format paper tapes. It can handle loading only into one field and it does no checksumming of the loaded tape to validate it was read correctly. The BIN loader is a longer set of code that is typically loaded in from a tape in RIM format. Most of the system software, diagnostics, etc are all BIN format paper tapes. BIN loader can handle multiple fields and does checksumming of loaded blocks for validation. The DEC small computer handbook for the PDP-8 series: http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/Small_Computer_Handbook_1973.pdf has listings of both of these loaders on pp. A-31 thru A-34. Don From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 17 17:15:17 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: latin stuff In-Reply-To: <4DD28FAE.5070505@vaxen.net> References: <399121.75978.qm@web29601.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <4DD1BD3E.6060908@ptdprolog.net> <20110516172030.S8547@shell.lmi.net> <4DD28FAE.5070505@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <20110517151237.Q52824@shell.lmi.net> > > The original documentation and technical manuals for the Antikytheran > > device were probably in Greek. On Tue, 17 May 2011, Doc wrote: > IIRC, the documentation (at least the owner's manual) was printed ON > the Antikytheran device, so that should be easily determined.... But, in a tradition that still lives, the documentation provided was insufficient to even identify what the hardware did until it was X-ray'd -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jws at jwsss.com Tue May 17 19:50:06 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 17:50:06 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD317BE.4050704@jwsss.com> I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with getting documenation translated if it can be had. I passed him three auctions with the parts I believe people here could bid on and obtain. He also looked for some information and sent it to me. The latest thread is below: If anyone has some pointers to Soviet documentation which has the information to design a board for these chips, but needs translation, you can post here or reply to me. I will see Pavel can get it and see if it has what would be needed. I didn't add this to the thread of this discussion which is off on the tangent of PDP software legalities, but am rather interested in an S-100 or any variant of this board which can run software, whether it be on an S100 card or other. W/o more information than I've seen I don't think there is much one can do with the chips. The systems for sale would be a better bet.. I also am pasting the three chips I found on ebay with links to them. Many thanks to Pavel for looking into this. Jim Stephens Hello, Jim. Of course, I'll do what I can. 1). I am not too good in PDP systems, but I know at least one good specialist. 2). Excuse me, I do not know, what is S100. Is it important for searching the information? 3). I am afraid, that all documentation would be in Russian. At least I have never seen soviet documentation in English. 4). Have you got a list of particular questions? I mean the list of chips in your interest. 5). Here is soviet small PDP machines: A). BK-0010 family http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=57 Cheap and widespread home line, partly PDP-11 compatible. Cost 50 - 100 USD now. http://molotok.ru/listing.php/search?sg=0&string=%D0%B1%D0%BA&category=66389 2). DVK family http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=254 Rare but usual professional computer, partly PDP-11 compatible. Cost ~1000 USD. http://spb.molotok.ru/kompyuter-dvk-3-2-i1605480948.html 3). Electronica 60 family http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=296 Very similar to PDP-11 computer. Rare today, could cost ~1000 USD. 4). Electronica 85 DEC Professional 3xx clones. Very rare today, could cost >1000 USD. Did I answer to you question correctly? Best regards, Pavel. You wrote 14 May 2011 ?., 01:04:55: > Pavel, > would you be able to look around for the specifications for a PDP 11 > IC? > thanks > Jim Stephens -- ? ?????????, K1801VM1 - USSR Gold Pink Ceramic Planar Clone of DEC PDP-11 CPU 380335079672 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380335079672 Ultra RARE Russian Soviet CPU CLone of DEC PDP-11. MADE IN USSR by Angstrem plant. K1801VM1 in Gold Pink Ceramic Planal body (Angstrem plant, 1991) Great item for chip collectors !!! For more information, please visit - http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/USSR-1801/index.html Another listing: 5x KN1831VU1 USSR Gold Clone PLCC DEC PDP J-11 Family 380335079651 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380335079651 5x KN1831VU1 (WU1) - 84-pin PLCC IC - DEC J-11 clone from the Elektronika-85 Computer with M8 processor Youl'll receive 5 (five) ICs from the old stock with passport and original factory box. Yet another listing 2x KR1801VM1,2 - USSR Clones of DEC PDP-11 CPU -RARE- 380335079630 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380335079630 From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Tue May 17 20:12:17 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:12:17 +1000 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? In-Reply-To: <4DD317BE.4050704@jwsss.com> References: <4DD317BE.4050704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:50 AM, jim s wrote: > 5). Here is soviet small PDP machines: I was really surprised when I found out about this model, a handheld PDP-11 compatible, the ELEKTRONIKA MK-90 http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=174 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 17 21:38:47 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 19:38:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have a Zenith Z29? Message-ID: <546802.40838.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've recently acquired a Morrow MDT 60, which, as far as I had always known, is basically just a Zenith Z29. Playing with it, it seems to have a rather brain damaged control character scheme, and insists on using parity no matter what. If you want a laugh, look at the MDT60 User's Manual, available on Bitsavers, and check out page 2-4 (PDF page 21). Even though switch 3 is defined as parity enable/disable, it's *also* defined in the table below, selecting which kind of parity to use... Therefore, it seems to me that disabling parity simply is not possible... Anyway, I took the back off and took a look at the board. Interestingly enough the logic board itself says "Morrow Terminal Bd", even though the casing and keyboard are clearly the same as the Zenith Z29. The monitor section itself definitely appears to be Zenith. I'm wondering if anyone has a Z29, if you could remove the back and take a picture of the logic board. It's really easy - three 1/4" hex cap screws and the rear pan just folds down. For bonus points, I'd love a copy of the terminal's ROM. I'm wondering just what is going on with this terminal. Did Morrow have Zenith make them? The other way around? Are the logic boards of the two terminals the same, with only different ROMs, or are they totally different devices? Is there any way to make the MDT60 not use parity and otherwise play nice with *nix systems? -Ian From silent700 at gmail.com Tue May 17 22:35:23 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 22:35:23 -0500 Subject: cleaning out collection, update In-Reply-To: <4DD2EC81.5030405@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> <4DD2EC81.5030405@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:45 PM, joe heck wrote: > William Donzelli > Dave McGuire > Patrick Finnegan > Paul Anderson > Nobody home > Jason T > Jerome Fine Not me - I just pointed out where you were :) j From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 17 23:15:57 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:15:57 -0700 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters Message-ID: Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters and Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of drawers of type. Big mistake. They dismantled the machine, after being told not to, and who knows if the damage they did can be repaired. They demolished the units of drawers, and who knows how much type they lost as they moved the stuff half way across country (I'm told that there was loose type in the truck and on the ground when they unloaded). Sounds like the only things they didn't demolish were the bolts of fabric. I've not been able to get over to view the carnage, and I'm not looking forwards to it. I also found that if you're using them to move stuff like computer equipment you have to sign off that they're not responsible for any damage they do. WTF! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Tue May 17 23:40:46 2011 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 21:40:46 -0700 Subject: Jerry Lawson Memorial Celebration (Fairchild Channel F and VideoSoft) In-Reply-To: <016801cbf7b7$ff2a28e0$fd7e7aa0$@com> References: <4C77E5D6.5010504@snarc.net> <016801cbf7b7$ff2a28e0$fd7e7aa0$@com> Message-ID: <002201cc1515$c2967ac0$47c37040$@com> Jerry Lawson passed away last month (4/9/2011) The Memorial Celebration is: May 19th, 7:30pm-10pm David's Restaurant 5151 Stars and Stripes Drive Santa Clara, California 95054 (at the Santa Clara Golf and Tennis Club, next to the Santa Clara Convention Center) Some light food/appetizers will be served. Regards, david. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David W. Erhart > Sent: Sunday, April 10, 2011 12:47 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: Jerry Lawson passed away (developed Fairchild Channel F video > game console) > > Jerry Lawson passed away Saturday morning (4/9/2011) > > I will post more information regarding memorial services, etc. as I get > them. > > Here is a link to a recent article in the San Jose Mercury News about > Jerry. > http://www.mercurynews.com/business/ci_17531389?nclick_check=1 > > Here is another interview with Jerry. > http://www.vintagecomputing.com/index.php/archives/545 > > He will be sorely missed. > > Regards, > david. > ------------------------- > David W. Erhart > david at daviderhart.com > daviderhart at hotmail.com > From spedraja at ono.com Wed May 18 01:15:05 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:15:05 +0200 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is surrealistic. Sergio 2011/5/18 Zane H. Healy > Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters and > Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of drawers of > type. Big mistake. They dismantled the machine, after being told not to, > and who knows if the damage they did can be repaired. They demolished the > units of drawers, and who knows how much type they lost as they moved the > stuff half way across country (I'm told that there was loose type in the > truck and on the ground when they unloaded). > > Sounds like the only things they didn't demolish were the bolts of fabric. > > I've not been able to get over to view the carnage, and I'm not looking > forwards to it. > > I also found that if you're using them to move stuff like computer > equipment you have to sign off that they're not responsible for any damage > they do. WTF! > > Zane > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | | Photographer | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | My flickr Photostream | > | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | > From joeheck at splab.cas.neu.edu Tue May 17 15:54:16 2011 From: joeheck at splab.cas.neu.edu (Joe Heck) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 16:54:16 -0400 Subject: cleaning out collection, update In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DD2E078.1040700@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all, Thanks for the quick responses. So far, the list FIFO is William Donzelli Dave McGuire Patrick Finnegan Paul Anderson Nobody home Jason T Jerome Fine I'll start there. Joe From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue May 17 17:32:42 2011 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 17 May 2011 15:32:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: cleaning out collection In-Reply-To: <4DD2B566.60009@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> <4DD2B566.60009@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <502563.36032.qm@web161318.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi Joe, Anything left. You'll be driving right by me. I am in western NY near Buffalo. I can meet you on the thruway.. Interested on whatever may be left. Thanks, Brian. ________________________________ From: joe heck To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 1:50:30 PM Subject: cleaning out collection Hi, Making room in my basement. I have the following: three 5.25 Full Height Dec hard drives probably from microvax BA123 with 4 disks and a 3104, 7168, 7169, 7546, 7504, 7606, 7609, 7609 two DSD/Qualogy 880 10 or so Maxtor drives (RD52, RD53 size?) spare 8 inch winchester for the DSD boxes BA11 with some boards a 16 x 6 backplane full of qbus boards two more smaller backplanes with some qbus boards. I'm off to Dayton, but when I return, this stuff needs to be gone by the end of the month. First come, first served, FREE, pickup only. Joe From doug at doughq.com Tue May 17 22:25:38 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:25:38 +1000 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: <4DD19F86.7020307@neurotica.com> <4DD29915.8060808@neurotica.com> <4DD2BB79.5000503@gmail.com> <4DD2BDEC.6030300@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Awesome- I will have to ask a potentially silly question - can somebody either share the source with me, or point me to where I can download it? I have done a Google search with no luck, except to get sidetracked drooling over the little sol-20 computer....... I have an 11/34 with RL01 disks, and a console..... Getting the software onto it will be tricky! Doug On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 4:35 AM, Ian King wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > > Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 11:27 AM > > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board > > > > On 5/17/11 2:16 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > >>> I've played with SOL-11. I'd like to rewrite it a bit so it can run > > >>> on a machine without EAE - there are a lot of 11/20s around with > > 4kW > > >>> of memory. :-) -- Ian > > >> > > >> You mean EIS; it doesn't require an EAE. But yes, I'd like to do > > that as > > >> well. > > >> > > >> It requires 28kW of RAM though. I doubt it'll be easy to trim that > > down > > >> much. > > > > > > EIS? > > > > Extended Instruction Set. Integer multiply/divide and arithmetic > > shift instructions. > > > > Yup, that's what I meant, EIS. Been playing with -8's too much lately. > It's been a while since I messed around with SOL-11, but I didn't recall it > being that big. -- Ian > From nico at farumdata.dk Wed May 18 01:48:11 2011 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:48:11 +0200 Subject: Cleaning out shop References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> <4DD2E078.1040700@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <528FCF247011497095913DFF28A649D4@udvikling> Hi all Because of retirement, I'm starting to clean out my stock for peanuts as I hate seeing good parts being scrapped. How about e.g. the intestines of a floppy conversion system for about 800 (mostly european) formats? Size ranges from 3.5" to 8" The controllers come from SMS (512 and 82xx). Includes software /Nico ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joe Heck" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, May 17, 2011 10:54 PM Subject: cleaning out collection, update > Hi all, > > Thanks for the quick responses. > > So far, the list FIFO is > > William Donzelli > Dave McGuire > Patrick Finnegan > Paul Anderson > Nobody home > Jason T > Jerome Fine > > I'll start there. > > Joe > From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed May 18 01:48:31 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:48:31 +0000 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow References: <4DD2E223.1060208@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <201105180648.p4I6mZDt015428@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> > On 5/17/11 1:00 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > Al, do you have a copy of the Borland Turbo Assembler doc for v5? >> I have some docs that are not on line, I'll check if I have an assembler >> manual Thanks. I saw some manuals for earlier releases but I am hoping to find the doc specifically for v5 for DOS/Windows. And a huge THANK YOU for running the bitsavers site and for your other doc/software archival activities! From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Wed May 18 05:02:31 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:02:31 +0200 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? References: <4DD317BE.4050704@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9731B3630F6542138392262FD85096FF@Pc12> hello everyone ,I have several pdp11 compatible machines from soviet union,you can see them here http://www.radio-astronomie.com/ordinosaurus.htm I have bought processors,new ,not uncertain from ebay here: http://www.evita.lt/en/p-aboutus/ the are correct ,ship fast ,not expensive. Other shops exist like Platan etc.... software cand be found here http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/BK/ and here (among lots) http://www.pdp-11.ru/mybk/pdp11/ this guy has ported a small unix to those machines http://vak.ru/doku.php schematics of several pdp11 compatible machines (bk,uknc,dvk)here http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/ this will give you ideas of course it is in russian and cyrillics ,but translators work well I have a colleague in russia who bought for me lots of circuits:microprocessors,fdc,serial controllers,all qbus compatible,I think he would be happy to help you , he is particularly reliable.I hope this will help you.I use those machines since nearly 10 years,and I am thinking of building one as all necessary is available on the net. I am also thinking of building a pdp8 with a 6100,the idea is the use of nvrams like maxim's to simulate core memories...Best regards to all Alain Nierveze 492 all?e Montesquieu 33290 Le Pian Medoc nierveze at radio-astronomie.com www.radio-astronomie.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim s" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:50 AM Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? >I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a fellow >who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with getting >documenation translated if it can be had. > > I passed him three auctions with the parts I believe people here could bid > on and obtain. He also looked for some information and sent it to me. > > The latest thread is below: > > If anyone has some pointers to Soviet documentation which has the > information to design a board for these chips, but needs translation, you > can post here or reply to me. I will see Pavel can get it and see if it > has what would be needed. > > I didn't add this to the thread of this discussion which is off on the > tangent of PDP software legalities, but am rather interested in an S-100 > or any variant of this board which can run software, whether it be on an > S100 card or other. W/o more information than I've seen I don't think > there is much one can do with the chips. The systems for sale would be a > better bet.. > > I also am pasting the three chips I found on ebay with links to them. > > Many thanks to Pavel for looking into this. > > Jim Stephens > > Hello, Jim. > > Of course, I'll do what I can. > > 1). I am not too good in PDP systems, but I know at least one good > specialist. > > 2). Excuse me, I do not know, what is S100. Is it important for > searching the information? > > 3). I am afraid, that all documentation would be in Russian. > At least I have never seen soviet documentation in English. > > 4). Have you got a list of particular questions? > I mean the list of chips in your interest. > > 5). Here is soviet small PDP machines: > > A). BK-0010 family > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=57 > Cheap and widespread home line, partly PDP-11 compatible. > Cost 50 - 100 USD now. > http://molotok.ru/listing.php/search?sg=0&string=%D0%B1%D0%BA&category=66389 > > > 2). DVK family > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=254 > Rare but usual professional computer, partly PDP-11 compatible. > Cost ~1000 USD. > http://spb.molotok.ru/kompyuter-dvk-3-2-i1605480948.html > > 3). Electronica 60 family > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=296 > Very similar to PDP-11 computer. > Rare today, could cost ~1000 USD. > > 4). Electronica 85 > DEC Professional 3xx clones. > Very rare today, could cost >1000 USD. > > > Did I answer to you question correctly? > > Best regards, Pavel. > > You wrote 14 May 2011 ?., 01:04:55: > > > Pavel, > > would you be able to look around for the specifications for a PDP 11 > > IC? > > > > > thanks > > Jim Stephens > > > > -- > ? ?????????, > > K1801VM1 - USSR Gold Pink Ceramic Planar Clone of DEC PDP-11 CPU > > 380335079672 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380335079672 > > Ultra RARE Russian Soviet CPU CLone of DEC PDP-11. MADE IN USSR by > Angstrem plant. > > K1801VM1 in Gold Pink Ceramic Planal body (Angstrem plant, 1991) > > Great item for chip collectors !!! > > For more information, please visit - > http://www.cpu-world.com/CPUs/USSR-1801/index.html > > Another listing: > 5x KN1831VU1 USSR Gold Clone PLCC DEC PDP J-11 Family > > 380335079651 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380335079651 > > 5x KN1831VU1 (WU1) - 84-pin PLCC IC - DEC J-11 clone from the > Elektronika-85 Computer with M8 processor > Youl'll receive 5 (five) ICs from the old stock with passport and original > factory box. > > Yet another listing > > 2x KR1801VM1,2 - USSR Clones of DEC PDP-11 CPU -RARE- > > 380335079630 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380335079630 > > From rtellason at verizon.net Wed May 18 05:17:47 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 06:17:47 -0400 Subject: Important Xref data question. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201105180617.48028.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 May 2011 08:49:34 pm Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Hey! I?m sick and tired of trying to find a good Xref database for > componants, and am considering making my own. What information do you > consider critical in cross referencing a part? I started something of the sort just to cross mfr's part numbers to generic ones, in a spreadsheet. It's still pretty small so far, and only deals with semiconductors. What other parts do you think should be covered? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed May 18 06:23:23 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:23:23 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? Message-ID: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Guys, I used a Cambridge Z88 for Retrochallenge last year (see http://www.retrochallenge.org for last competition) whilst on holiday. The summer challenge runs in the month of July - entries will be welcome anytime by email to me mark at wickensonline dot co dot uk. This year I'd like to use a different, portable computing device to document this year's summer challenge, and possibly include a little programming. My criteria are: * no larger than a Cambridge Z88. * daylight readable screen. * operates on batteries. * preferably with some kind of programming language/environment. I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could take this year that would be fun to explore but also practical enough to use day to day to write text for the website. I will take a laptop for uploading text via wifi, so some sort of PC connectivity is a must (although this could be as simple as an RS232 cable). Many thanks, Mark From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed May 18 07:10:53 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:10:53 -0400 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD3B74D.4080902@atarimuseum.com> Yeah, they've been notorious rip off artists for years, most of the arcade people avoid them like the plague SPC wrote: > This is surrealistic. > > Sergio > > 2011/5/18 Zane H. Healy > > >> Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters and >> Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of drawers of >> type. Big mistake. They dismantled the machine, after being told not to, >> and who knows if the damage they did can be repaired. They demolished the >> units of drawers, and who knows how much type they lost as they moved the >> stuff half way across country (I'm told that there was loose type in the >> truck and on the ground when they unloaded). >> >> Sounds like the only things they didn't demolish were the bolts of fabric. >> >> I've not been able to get over to view the carnage, and I'm not looking >> forwards to it. >> >> I also found that if you're using them to move stuff like computer >> equipment you have to sign off that they're not responsible for any damage >> they do. WTF! >> >> Zane >> >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | | Photographer | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | My flickr Photostream | >> | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >> >> > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed May 18 07:45:14 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 05:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/18/11, Mark Wickens wrote: > My criteria are: > > * no larger than a Cambridge Z88. > * daylight readable screen. > * operates on batteries. > * preferably with some kind of programming > language/environment. > > I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what > I could take this year that would be fun to explore but also > practical enough to use day to day to write text for the > website. I will take a laptop for uploading text via wifi, > so some sort of PC connectivity is a must (although this > could be as simple as an RS232 cable). I don't know how common they are over there, but the Tandy model 100 and 200 computers would fit the bill. They're small, and run on AA batteries. The LCD's are pretty decent (compared to others of the era), and they have built in BASIC as well as a simple word processor and termianl program. They have RS232. They also have a nice well made keyboard. The two machines are pretty much the same - but the 200 has a bigger screen and looks more like a laptop, the 100 doesn't have a hinged lid, since the screen is smaller and fits above the keyboard. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 18 08:06:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 09:06:10 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> On 5/18/11 8:45 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> My criteria are: >> >> * no larger than a Cambridge Z88. * daylight readable screen. * >> operates on batteries. * preferably with some kind of programming >> language/environment. >> >> I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could >> take this year that would be fun to explore but also practical >> enough to use day to day to write text for the website. I will take >> a laptop for uploading text via wifi, so some sort of PC >> connectivity is a must (although this could be as simple as an >> RS232 cable). > > I don't know how common they are over there, but the Tandy model 100 > and 200 computers would fit the bill. They're small, and run on AA > batteries. The LCD's are pretty decent (compared to others of the > era), and they have built in BASIC as well as a simple word processor > and termianl program. They have RS232. They also have a nice well > made keyboard. The two machines are pretty much the same - but the > 200 has a bigger screen and looks more like a laptop, the 100 doesn't > have a hinged lid, since the screen is smaller and fits above the > keyboard. There's also the NEC PC-8201 and PC-8300. These were all built by Kyocera. Olivetti also sold at least one machine built on that design, but I don't know the model number(s). These are all larger than a Z88, though. I think the "no larger than a Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. The Z88 is pretty tiny. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed May 18 08:15:23 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 09:15:23 -0400 Subject: Going to Dayton? Message-ID: <201105180915.23154.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm going to be going to Dayton again, with a pretty good mix of new, old, and non-computer stuff. I'll be in the same spaces as last year - FE3224/3225. Who else is going? -- Patrick Finnegan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 18 09:17:32 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 07:17:32 -0700 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: <4DD3B74D.4080902@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DD3B74D.4080902@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Interesting, it's from arcade people and people here recommending them that I was aware of them. >:-( Zane At 8:10 AM -0400 5/18/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Yeah, they've been notorious rip off artists for years, most of the >arcade people avoid them like the plague > > > > >SPC wrote: >>This is surrealistic. >> >>Sergio >> >>2011/5/18 Zane H. Healy >> >> >>>Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters and >>>Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of drawers of >>>type. Big mistake. They dismantled the machine, after being told not to, >>>and who knows if the damage they did can be repaired. They demolished the >>>units of drawers, and who knows how much type they lost as they moved the >>>stuff half way across country (I'm told that there was loose type in the >>>truck and on the ground when they unloaded). >>> >>>Sounds like the only things they didn't demolish were the bolts of fabric. >>> >>>I've not been able to get over to view the carnage, and I'm not looking >>>forwards to it. >>> >>>I also found that if you're using them to move stuff like computer >>>equipment you have to sign off that they're not responsible for any damage >>>they do. WTF! >>> >>>Zane >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >>>| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >>>| | Photographer | >>>+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >>>| My flickr Photostream | >>>| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | >>> >>> >> >> -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:28:03 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:28:03 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 18 May 2011 14:06, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/18/11 8:45 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> >>> My criteria are: >>> >>> * no larger than a Cambridge Z88. * daylight readable screen. * >>> operates on batteries. * preferably with some kind of programming >>> language/environment. >>> >>> I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could >>> take this year that would be fun to explore but also practical >>> enough to use day to day to write text for the website. I will take >>> a laptop for uploading text via wifi, so some sort of PC >>> connectivity is a must (although this could be as simple as an >>> RS232 cable). >> >> I don't know how common they are over there, but the Tandy model 100 >> and 200 computers would fit the bill. They're small, and run on AA >> batteries. The LCD's are pretty decent (compared to others of the >> era), and they have built in BASIC as well as a simple word processor >> and termianl program. They have RS232. They also have a nice well >> made keyboard. The two machines are pretty much the same - but the >> 200 has a bigger screen and looks more like a laptop, the 100 doesn't >> have a hinged lid, since the screen is smaller and fits above the >> keyboard. > > ?There's also the NEC PC-8201 and PC-8300. ?These were all built by Kyocera. > ?Olivetti also sold at least one machine built on that design, but I don't > know the model number(s). > > ?These are all larger than a Z88, though. ?I think the "no larger than a > Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. ?The Z88 is pretty > tiny. I suppose it depends where you're standing, as it were, but to me, the Z88 is a pretty huge portable device. It's bigger than some modern notebook computers. There are a whole host of smaller portable battery-powered devices, but not many bigger - various PC notebooks & a handful of non-PC notebooks (various Apple Mac notebooks, the Acorn A4, the Tadpole SPARC laptops and not much else). There were various luggables but they were all mains-powered. Of the same form factor as the Z88 - the Epson HX-20, the Tandy Model 100 and its relatives, the Amstrad NC100/150/200, and the Alphasmart Dayna. Smaller - sheesh, how long have you got? Old school: Newbrain. Psion: Organizer & Organizer II; Series 3/3a/3c/3mx (& clones); Series 5/5mx (& clones); Revo, Siena (& clones); MC series. All programmable in OPL, of course. Various Merkin poor copies of Psions ;?) ... HP 95LX, OmniGo models, Jornada 710/720/730; Poqet; Atari Portfolio. Sharp made various pocket-sized BASIC-programmable devices of which I know little, such as the PC-1500, and various companies did similar. This list recently discussed a remarkable Russian one which is a PDP-11 compatible. I could go on, but this would become an essay, which although fun won't pay the bills. There are *dozens*, quite probably *hundreds*, of battery-powered programmable portable computers smaller than the Z88! The only way I can interpret your "I think the "no larger than a Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible" statement is if you are thinking of something entirely different when you read "Z88". This is a Z88: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88 You can't be thinking of a ZX81 - that is bigger than lots of pocketable computers - most Psions, the Sharp devices, all the HP LX and Omnigos and so on. Perhaps a Z80? A bare chip? But even so, there are surely lots of smaller CPUs, surely... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed May 18 10:30:56 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:30:56 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DD3E630.2000007@verizon.net> On 05/18/2011 07:23 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Guys, > > I used a Cambridge Z88 for Retrochallenge last year (see > http://www.retrochallenge.org for last competition) whilst on holiday. > > The summer challenge runs in the month of July - entries will be > welcome anytime by email to me mark at wickensonline dot co dot uk. > > This year I'd like to use a different, portable computing device to > document this year's summer challenge, and possibly include a little > programming. > > My criteria are: > > * no larger than a Cambridge Z88. > * daylight readable screen. > * operates on batteries. > * preferably with some kind of programming language/environment. > > I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could > take this year that would be fun to explore but also practical enough > to use day to day to write text for the website. I will take a laptop > for uploading text via wifi, so some sort of PC connectivity is a must > (although this could be as simple as an RS232 cable). > > Many thanks, Mark > Find yourself a Epson PX8. Runs basic and has CP/M OS, cpu is Z80. it has a serial port (rs232) and there are wedges that anchor to the back of it that are either extended memory (Ramdisk) or Modem(300baud direct connect). It's laptop postable with internal Nicads (1800mah). I have one I've used for years, good portable. Allison From evan at snarc.net Wed May 18 10:34:24 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:34:24 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DD3E700.3090000@snarc.net> > NEC PC-8201 and PC-8300. These were all built by Kyocera. Olivetti > also sold at least one machine built on that design, but I don't know > the model number(s). TRS-80 Model 100 / PC-8201 / M-10 are all the same machine underneath. Rarest of that series is Kyocera's Kyotronic KC-85. > These are all larger than a Z88, though. I think the "no larger than > a Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. The Z88 is > pretty tiny. Right. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed May 18 10:39:03 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:39:03 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DD3E817.7060204@wickensonline.co.uk> On 18/05/11 16:28, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 May 2011 14:06, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 5/18/11 8:45 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>>> My criteria are: >>>> >>>> * no larger than a Cambridge Z88. * daylight readable screen. * >>>> operates on batteries. * preferably with some kind of programming >>>> language/environment. >>>> >>>> I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could >>>> take this year that would be fun to explore but also practical >>>> enough to use day to day to write text for the website. I will take >>>> a laptop for uploading text via wifi, so some sort of PC >>>> connectivity is a must (although this could be as simple as an >>>> RS232 cable). >>> I don't know how common they are over there, but the Tandy model 100 >>> and 200 computers would fit the bill. They're small, and run on AA >>> batteries. The LCD's are pretty decent (compared to others of the >>> era), and they have built in BASIC as well as a simple word processor >>> and termianl program. They have RS232. They also have a nice well >>> made keyboard. The two machines are pretty much the same - but the >>> 200 has a bigger screen and looks more like a laptop, the 100 doesn't >>> have a hinged lid, since the screen is smaller and fits above the >>> keyboard. >> There's also the NEC PC-8201 and PC-8300. These were all built by Kyocera. >> Olivetti also sold at least one machine built on that design, but I don't >> know the model number(s). >> >> These are all larger than a Z88, though. I think the "no larger than a >> Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. The Z88 is pretty >> tiny. > I suppose it depends where you're standing, as it were, but to me, the > Z88 is a pretty huge portable device. It's bigger than some modern > notebook computers. There are a whole host of smaller portable > battery-powered devices, but not many bigger - various PC notebooks& > a handful of non-PC notebooks (various Apple Mac notebooks, the Acorn > A4, the Tadpole SPARC laptops and not much else). There were various > luggables but they were all mains-powered. > > Of the same form factor as the Z88 - the Epson HX-20, the Tandy Model > 100 and its relatives, the Amstrad NC100/150/200, and the Alphasmart > Dayna. > > Smaller - sheesh, how long have you got? > > Old school: Newbrain. > > Psion: Organizer& Organizer II; Series 3/3a/3c/3mx (& clones); Series > 5/5mx (& clones); Revo, Siena (& clones); MC series. All programmable > in OPL, of course. > > Various Merkin poor copies of Psions ;?) ... HP 95LX, OmniGo models, > Jornada 710/720/730; Poqet; Atari Portfolio. > > Sharp made various pocket-sized BASIC-programmable devices of which I > know little, such as the PC-1500, and various companies did similar. > This list recently discussed a remarkable Russian one which is a > PDP-11 compatible. > > I could go on, but this would become an essay, which although fun > won't pay the bills. > > There are *dozens*, quite probably *hundreds*, of battery-powered > programmable portable computers smaller than the Z88! > > The only way I can interpret your "I think the "no larger than a Z88" > requirement will make this pretty much impossible" statement is if you > are thinking of something entirely different when you read "Z88". > > This is a Z88: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_Z88 > > You can't be thinking of a ZX81 - that is bigger than lots of > pocketable computers - most Psions, the Sharp devices, all the HP LX > and Omnigos and so on. > > Perhaps a Z80? A bare chip? But even so, there are surely lots of > smaller CPUs, surely... > Daylight readable display rules out a lot of devices - my IBM Thinkpad X60 for example is completely useless in anything approaching normal daylight (I hasten to add it is one with a non-daylight readable display). This also rules out any other laptop/sub-notebook that uses as standard TFT display. A decent keyboard would be good also, which might rule out some of the smaller devices. I've owned Psion 3s and 5s and wouldn't want to consider anything less usable. Thanks for the suggestions so far - I guess I'm maybe looking for those who have used devices in a similar situation to provide guidance. Certainly the Tandy 100 series would appear to be an ideal candidate. Regards, Mark. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:42:48 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:42:48 -0500 Subject: pdp 8a loader? In-Reply-To: <4DD2ECC5.1030003@mindspring.com> References: <4DD2ECC5.1030003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: when turn on my teletype it says i have atomcomp os 1.5 loaded On Tue, May 17, 2011 at 4:46 PM, Don North wrote: > On 5/17/2011 8:01 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> hi is there something like a abs loader for the pdp11??? reading my >> manual >> see somthing called rim loader but i think i am missing it inless its one >> of >> these? >> http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg >> >> where its curently at >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDwBZPX_Qjo >> >> >> > > The RIM loader is a very short sequence that is typically toggled in from > the console; it's job > is to load RIM (read-in-mode) format paper tapes. It can handle loading > only into one field > and it does no checksumming of the loaded tape to validate it was read > correctly. > > The BIN loader is a longer set of code that is typically loaded in from a > tape in RIM format. > Most of the system software, diagnostics, etc are all BIN format paper > tapes. BIN loader > can handle multiple fields and does checksumming of loaded blocks for > validation. > > The DEC small computer handbook for the PDP-8 series: > > > http://computer-refuge.org/bitsavers/pdf/dec/pdp8/handbooks/Small_Computer_Handbook_1973.pdf > > has listings of both of these loaders on pp. A-31 thru A-34. > > Don > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 18 10:43:29 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 10:43:29 -0500 Subject: pdp 8a loader? In-Reply-To: References: <4DD2ECC5.1030003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: and when i try to load the rim it does not take but then i duno what i am doing so i could be doing it all wrong From feedle at feedle.net Wed May 18 10:58:28 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan / A Baumann) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 08:58:28 -0700 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6B08D7E4-684C-49E4-AC26-BDA7030A4F89@feedle.net> On May 18, 2011, at 5:45 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I don't know how common they are over there, but the Tandy model 100 and 200 computers would fit the bill. Ditto the recommendation for the Model T, especially if you can find a Model 200, or a Model 102. The Model T still has a very active user community, and has proven to be an extremely reliable piece of hardware. If you get a Model T, you NEED to get a NADSbox and/or REX. Both allow for stuffing your machine silly with offline storage and memory. Also do some searches for MTCPM for an interesting project of note: getting CP/M working on the Model T (WARNING: not suitable for children or the weak-willed). From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 18 11:23:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:23:23 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3E817.7060204@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3E817.7060204@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DD3F27B.7050607@neurotica.com> On 5/18/11 11:39 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Thanks for the suggestions so far - I guess I'm maybe looking for those > who have used devices in a similar situation to provide guidance. > Certainly the Tandy 100 series would appear to be an ideal candidate. It's larger than a Z88. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 18 11:26:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:26:21 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DD3F32D.1090405@neurotica.com> On 5/18/11 11:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> These are all larger than a Z88, though. I think the "no larger than a >> Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. The Z88 is pretty >> tiny. > > I suppose it depends where you're standing, as it were, but to me, the > Z88 is a pretty huge portable device. It's bigger than some modern > notebook computers. NETbooks, yes, but notebooks? No. Jus about the only non-netbook laptop I've seen that's smaller than a Z88 is the Macbook Air. I think you may be misremembering the size (or lack thereof) of the Z88. It's extremely thin. (for the era) It's probably 1/2 to 2/3 the thickness of a TRS-80 Model 100 or NEC PC-8201. > There are a whole host of smaller portable > battery-powered devices, Sure, the Tandy PC-1 and PC-2 come to mind. Would you recommend those for writing articles? One-line displays, calculator keyboards...if you're going to do that, might I suggest an HP-41C? > but not many bigger - various PC notebooks& > a handful of non-PC notebooks (various Apple Mac notebooks, the Acorn > A4, the Tadpole SPARC laptops and not much else). There were various > luggables but they were all mains-powered. ...all of which are far larger than the Z88. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From david_comley at yahoo.com Wed May 18 11:40:24 2011 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 09:40:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Going to Dayton? In-Reply-To: <201105180915.23154.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <98093.61153.qm@web30602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/18/11, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Who else is going? I'll be there. -Dave From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 12:00:06 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:00:06 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have a Zenith Z29? In-Reply-To: <546802.40838.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <546802.40838.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <546802.40838.qm at web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > I've recently acquired a Morrow MDT 60, *grumble* :-) > I'm wondering if anyone has a Z29, if you could remove the back and take > a picture of the logic board. Yes, I have one and will try to remember to snap a photo when I'm at the warehouse tonight. Even though Z29s were all over the University of Delaware in the early/mid 80s, I have only been able to find one for sale on ebay. I don't know why this terminal is scarce, except that I guess nobody thought to keep any. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 12:11:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:11:32 -0600 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: HP-41C with HP-IL link? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 12:15:44 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:15:44 -0600 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters > and Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of > drawers of type. Big mistake. Which office? > I also found that if you're using them to move stuff like computer > equipment you have to sign off that they're not responsible for any > damage they do. WTF! I've never had to do this on anything I've shipped with them. All my experiences with them have been excellent, but perhaps I didn't use the office that you used. Each office (obviously) has different staff. Once they pack the unit, its introduced into the freight carrier's system. The freight carrier can still drive a forklift through your items and there's nothing C&F can do about that. Damage is possible during transport no matter what you do. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 12:29:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 11:29:30 -0600 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For the record, here's the dealings I've had: Megatek Whizzard terminal "cardboard crate" (Austin office) 19 Tektronix 4105/4205 terminals individually wrapped and boxed, freight shipped from Hayward, CA to SLC. (San Jose office) SGI 3130, monitor, keyboard, manuals, spare boards. Custom wooden crate. (Atlanta office) E&S image generator 1600 lbs(!). Custom wooden crate. (San Jose office) Aesthedes graphic design system. Multiple large cabinets, 3 large RGB monitors, boxes of manuals, versatec printer, film recorder, rolling cabinets, etc. (Minneapolis/St. Paul office) CDC 525 console. Cardboard crate. (Oklahoma City office) Two SGI 4D/310. Cardboard crate. (Annapolis office) SGI 4D/480VGX. Shrink wrap and pallet strap. (Annapolis office) There might be one or two more that I've forgotten. In every single instance, C&F has packed according to my instructions and been very helpful in selecting the best tradeoff between price and safety (i.e. not everything needs a wooden crate and the 480 I just had them shrink wrap it to keep the doors from opening). I've dealt with multiple offices across the country and always been a very satisfied customer. That said, nobody is perfect and all it takes is one asshole working at one of your offices to trash your reputation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rogpugh at mac.com Wed May 18 12:59:37 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 18:59:37 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DD40909.30805@mac.com> On 05/18/2011 12:23, Mark Wickens wrote: > > I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could > take this year that would be fun to explore but also practical enough > to use day to day to write text for the website. I will take a laptop > for uploading text via wifi, so some sort of PC connectivity is a must > (although this could be as simple as an RS232 cable). > > Many thanks, Mark You could keep it British and go for something like the Psion organisers, Microwriter or Microwriter Agenda or try some of Alan Sugar's products like the NC's or a ppc512. Think of the attention you will get by using a PPC512 on the train.. lol Other alternatives are Apple Newtons, Tandy WP's or Epson HX20's These all have serial ports i think.. If you are interested i think i have a few old Tandy WP devices somewhere from a job lot of stuff i got you can have. Roger From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 13:02:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 19:02:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3F32D.1090405@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 18, 11 12:26:21 pm Message-ID: > Sure, the Tandy PC-1 and PC-2 come to mind. Would you recommend > those for writing articles? One-line displays, calculator > keyboards...if you're going to do that, might I suggest an HP-41C? At least let me have an HP41CX, please. it has a built-in text editor and extended memory to store said text. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 18 12:56:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 18:56:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 18, 11 09:06:10 am Message-ID: > > I don't know how common they are over there, but the Tandy model 100 > > and 200 computers would fit the bill. They're small, and run on AA They are fairly ocmmon in the UK. They were offically osld over here (ahtough the M100 was somewhat different to the US on in tha the internal modem was rmeoved, and the main PCB is thus rather different). > > batteries. The LCD's are pretty decent (compared to others of the > > era), and they have built in BASIC as well as a simple word processor > > and termianl program. They have RS232. They also have a nice well > > made keyboard. The two machines are pretty much the same - but the > > 200 has a bigger screen and looks more like a laptop, the 100 doesn't > > have a hinged lid, since the screen is smaller and fits above the > > keyboard. > > There's also the NEC PC-8201 and PC-8300. These were all built by > Kyocera. Olivetti also sold at least one machine built on that design, > but I don't know the model number(s). Olivetti M10. > > These are all larger than a Z88, though. I think the "no larger than > a Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. The Z88 is > pretty tiny. It rules out a couplke of machines I would have used, namely the HP110 and Portable+/ The latter can have a 'ROM Drawer' fitted which acts like a read-only disk drive, so you can have an editor an a (small) programming language in there. I think the Hp110 has some kind of editor and BASIC in ROM. Ther;es also the HP75C (or D) and HP71B machines. They are much smaller than a Z88,. The former has the better keybaord for typing on, but the latter is much the nicer machine to use, particualrlyt if you add a Forth ROM (BASIC Is stnadard). They only have 1-line LCDs though. They do run on batteries (a special NiC pack fo the HP75, 4 AAA cells for the HP71). The onyl porobkem is the PC connetivity. The HP75 has HPIL as standard, it's an option module for the HP71. And there is an HPIL to RS232 interface. Problem is, that unit -- at least the HP one (HP82164) will not run on battieres. It runs off an 8V AC adapter, and it has to be AC becuase there's a step-up transformer inside the interface to get the RS232 votlages which runs directly off the AC input. Yes, I do have the service manual... Very small, but useable (readable LCD, tiny,m but usable keyboard, runs off a couple of AA cells anf has an RS232 port) are the older HP palmtops, HP95LX, HP100LX, HP200LX. They have an editor, terminmal emulator (with kermit and Xmodem) etc in ROM. But no programming language (unless you vcould Lotus 1-2-3 macros :-)). But I am pretty sure there are versions of BASIC or Forth that you could load onto said machines. -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed May 18 13:14:42 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:14:42 -0400 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters Message-ID: >>>They demolished the >>>units of drawers, and who knows how much type they lost as they moved the >>>stuff half way across country (I'm told that there was loose type in the >>>truck and on the ground when they unloaded). I know it's easy to critique the craters mistakes but there is a point To be learned and I think it's fundamental: High density objects that May normally OK at rest in their usual low density containers, do not travel well unless measures are taken to prevent them from rattling around. Type in drawers is one example, but a more relevant one for this group would be big iron transformers on aluminum or steel sheet metal chassis. That chassis may be Perfectly fine at rest, but keep in mind that its Very likely the transformer was originally shipped separate from the chassis when The unit was new, 30 or 40 or 50 years ago. Every single instance I've seen where a supposedly professional packer/crater Screwed up, it was a high density object that wasn't taken into account that did The damage. I was not so much angry to see the damage inflicted by the transformer Rattling around in the chassis, as I was sad. Tim. From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Wed May 18 13:45:01 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:45:01 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: I'd go for a Psion 3-series. They're small, have good built-in software, a fair amount of RAM and a pretty good programming environment. The straight 3 is pretty limited, but the 3a, 3c and 3mx are pretty good (the 3mx especially, since it has a 21 MHz CPU, but still has awesome battery life) From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 18 14:02:04 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:02:04 -0700 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 2:14 PM -0400 5/18/11, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > >>>They demolished the >>>>units of drawers, and who knows how much type they lost as they moved the >>>>stuff half way across country (I'm told that there was loose type in the >>>>truck and on the ground when they unloaded). > >I know it's easy to critique the craters mistakes but there is a point >To be learned and I think it's fundamental: High density objects that >May normally OK at rest in their usual low density containers, do >not travel well unless measures are taken to prevent them from >rattling around. > >Type in drawers is one example, but a more relevant one for this group would >be big iron transformers on aluminum or steel sheet metal chassis. >That chassis may be >Perfectly fine at rest, but keep in mind that its >Very likely the transformer was originally shipped separate from the >chassis when >The unit was new, 30 or 40 or 50 years ago. > >Every single instance I've seen where a supposedly professional packer/crater >Screwed up, it was a high density object that wasn't taken into >account that did >The damage. I was not so much angry to see the damage inflicted by >the transformer >Rattling around in the chassis, as I was sad. > >Tim. Part of the problem is that they were instructed to remove each drawer, put padding in, and shrink wrap it. I gather they sort of did this on 3 drawers of type. Things would have gone a lot better *IF* they'd followed instructions. They basically totally disregarded the instructions on how to pack everything. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 14:23:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <201105180648.p4I6mZDt015428@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <4DD2E223.1060208@bitsavers.org> <201105180648.p4I6mZDt015428@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110518121815.Y90010@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 May 2011 vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Thanks. I saw some manuals for earlier releases but I am hoping to find > the doc specifically for v5 for DOS/Windows. At some point, Borland stopped selling Turbo Assembler as an independent product, but continued to bundle it with their high-end C/C++? compiler. Philipe Kahn is reputed to have said, "Assembly language is useful for debugging, but nobody programs in it." I wonder what he is upt to these days. Other than the above remark, I always liked his "style". I wonder whether he ever got his chance to play sax with Clinton? -- Grumpy Ol' Nobody From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed May 18 14:28:52 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:28:52 -0700 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:15 AM -0600 5/18/11, Richard wrote: >In article , > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters >> and Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of >> drawers of type. Big mistake. > >Which office? Texas, I want to say San Antonio, but am not sure. I've not been involved with the acquisition, shipping, or receiving other than making the mistake of recommending C&F. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 14:44:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110518123851.S90010@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 May 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > There's also the NEC PC-8201 and PC-8300. These were all built by > Kyocera. Olivetti also sold at least one machine built on that design, > but I don't know the model number(s). The Epson HC20/HX20 (the HC was a different color, and also had katakana on the keyboard and in the character generator ROMs) was a 6803?, smaller screen, microcassette "drive", etc. Not as well suited for general purpose use as the Kyocera machines, but with the addition of a cash drawer made a helluva cash register. > These are all larger than a Z88, though. I think the "no larger than > a Z88" requirement will make this pretty much impossible. The Z88 is > pretty tiny. The smallest machine of THAT vintage was the Epson RC20 (wristwatch computer). Z80 like processor, RAM, ROM, and a serial port. NOT imported into USA. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 14:56:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:56:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> Atari Portfolio - 3rd party MS-DOS imitation (including most of the MS-DOS undocumented functions!) DeSmet C compiler (now "Personal C") fits on a memory card. Poqet - MS-DOS 5 in ROM 2 pre-PCMCIA PCMCIA card slots ("People Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms") Palm Pilots There is a C compiler that will run on it, but normally development is done on desktop machines with packages such as Code-Warrior. Fossil Abacus Palm OS wristwatch -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 14:58:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3E700.3090000@snarc.net> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3E700.3090000@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110518125637.C90010@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 May 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > TRS-80 Model 100 / PC-8201 / M-10 are all the same machine underneath. > Rarest of that series is Kyocera's Kyotronic KC-85. Some of the minor differences do matter, such as connection to the Model 100 DVI, NEC memory cartridges, different battery packs, etc. Rick Hanson used to be the one to go to for details. From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 15:11:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:11:18 -0600 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > At 11:15 AM -0600 5/18/11, Richard wrote: > >Which office? > > Texas, I want to say San Antonio, but am not sure. I've not been > involved with the acquisition, shipping, or receiving other than > making the mistake of recommending C&F. Well, as I say, I've used them many times with great results, although I have not used the San Antonio office. When I've had special instructions for shipment, I've always talked to them on the phone before things were introduced into the freight system. Its kinda like carpenter's measuring twice and cutting once. Since you did nothing other than make a recommendation, we don't know how much blame to lay on C&F and how much was a miscommunication of instructions. When I have special instructions, I email and/or FAX them to the office so that they have a written record of my request. I don't trust them to remember special instructions verbally. Even if we discuss it on the phone and reach a conclusion verbally, I always send a followup email. I had a very miserable experience with CTS freight shipping. At the time when I brought it up on this list, everyone told me all their great shipping experiences with CTS. I won't be using CTS again and I now stay away from "dovebid audio/video exchange" auctions because the stuff is always sold out of Reading, PA and that's outside the service radius of C&F. I appreciate you relaying your story and if I have to deal with the San Antonio office for anything requiring special care, I'll be sure to pay attention. But its not going to stop me from using C&F as I'm a very happy and satisfied customer with all the offices I've used so far (forgot to add that I've also used the Salt Lake office to pickup a bunch of stuff from Hill Air Force Base in Ogden and bring it down to SLC). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 18 15:11:52 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:11:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 18, 11 12:56:11 pm" Message-ID: <201105182011.p4IKBq7x016306@floodgap.com> > Palm Pilots There is a C compiler that will run on it, but normally > development is done on desktop machines with packages such as > Code-Warrior. Plua is a delightful (alas no longer developed) way to write self-hosted apps on PalmOS. They are highly functional and they are Lualicious. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The Internet is, once again, your friend" (I wrote this *before* PacBell!) From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 18 15:13:05 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:13:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20110518125637.C90010@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 18, 11 12:58:44 pm" Message-ID: <201105182013.p4IKD5wT012034@floodgap.com> > > TRS-80 Model 100 / PC-8201 / M-10 are all the same machine underneath. > > Rarest of that series is Kyocera's Kyotronic KC-85. > > Some of the minor differences do matter, such as connection to the > Model 100 DVI, NEC memory cartridges, different battery packs, etc. The memory maps are also different. Code is not necessarily portable (I usually have to do some tweaking on lower-level Model 100 code to get it to run properly on my 8201As). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous. ---------------------------------- From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 18 15:22:00 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:22:00 -0700 Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD42A68.7070906@jwsss.com> I would not expect this of the Anaheim, Ca. office. I was able to inspect their facilities, which at the time was custom crating what appeared to be the contents of a hospital / radiology clinic, and there was no indication that they would have done what you suggest with such details as the type for the typesetter. They were arranging shipping requirments for each item by using input from the customer as well as the original manufacturer. They also had good suggestions for the shipping of the equipment I had them quote (Computer Automation equppment, both assembled and loose). I will not hesitate to use them in the future at this office, but would certainly take care to inspect a special operation before shipping for items of the type you suggest (regardless of your comment, I would be careful). Agree with richard, though, it only takes one bad experience or bad apple to spoil the barrel. Jim On 5/18/2011 12:28 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:15 AM -0600 5/18/11, Richard wrote: >> In article , >> "Zane H. Healy" writes: >> >>> Thanks to past comments here, I recommended the Library use Craters >>> and Freighters to move a hot-press machine, and two units full of >>> drawers of type. Big mistake. >> >> Which office? > > Texas, I want to say San Antonio, but am not sure. I've not been > involved with the acquisition, shipping, or receiving other than > making the mistake of recommending C&F. > > Zane > > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 18 15:27:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 13:27:48 -0700 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <201105182011.p4IKBq7x016306@floodgap.com> References: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "May 18, 11 12:56:11 pm", <201105182011.p4IKBq7x016306@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DD3C954.16310.1222BB1@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 May 2011 at 13:11, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Plua is a delightful (alas no longer developed) way to write > self-hosted apps on PalmOS. They are highly functional and they are > Lualicious. I've seen at least one NEC PC9801 (x86) emulation done on an iPod Touch. I suspect that other emulators exist as well. And then there's the GameBoy... --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 16:07:09 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3F32D.1090405@neurotica.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3F32D.1090405@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110518135643.O94591@shell.lmi.net> When will my OQOs become "vintage"? Howzbout: HP95LX The tablet that Fujitsu came out with when they bought out Poqet Antikythera!! iPaq pocket computers with Windoze CE (Palm Pilot competitor) You could probably install Windoze 3.00 on a Poqet! 8086??, CGA video "Vintage", "portable", and "computer" always need to be defined each and every time they are used. "Smaller than Z88" is a pretty restrictive definion for portable! All of the luggables (5100, etc.), and even the Macintosh were called "portable" when they came out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 16:11:01 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have a Zenith Z29? In-Reply-To: References: <546802.40838.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110518140838.X94591@shell.lmi.net> Which was the Z29? I don't remember the model numbers. On a related note, Moorow's licensing to Zenith of manufacturing of their lunchbox played a significant role in Morrow Computer's demise. (various shenanigans relating to "the IRS contract".) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed May 18 16:11:27 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:11:27 +0000 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? References: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Fred wrote: > Palm Pilots There is a C compiler that will run on it, but normally > development is done on desktop machines with packages such as > Code-Warrior. There are at least 2 Palm-hosted Forth systems and a common LISP. There is a JVM and development system and I believe even an assembler. I can't remember if the assembler is self-hosted but I think it is. There is also a telnet client. The letter recognition system Palms have for the stylus they come with is amazing but it is tiring to use for more than a few sentences. You can also use the virtual keyboard or even an addon physical keyboard on some models but with the tiny screen you really have to like punishing yourself for no reason except to say you did. Any "normal" portable is going to be much more practical and much less painful than a Palm, even though Palms are fun and can do an amazing amount of stuff. And Palm OS is really well written and implemented, the SDK should have been a model for other systems. As usual the good stuff goes the way of the dinosaur and the inferior stuff with better marketing and GUI lives on. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68X, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 18 16:17:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:17:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110518141725.Q94591@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 May 2011, Michael Kerpan wrote: > I'd go for a Psion 3-series. They're small, have good built-in > software, a fair amount of RAM and a pretty good programming > environment. The straight 3 is pretty limited, but the 3a, 3c and 3mx > are pretty good (the 3mx especially, since it has a 21 MHz CPU, but > still has awesome battery life) Which models of Psion will run the Apple ][ emulator? From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed May 18 16:20:45 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:20:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? Message-ID: <1735648079.870015.1305753645990.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 8 >Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 12:23:23 +0100 >From: Mark Wickens < mark at wickensonline.co.uk > >Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? Get an HP LX 95, 100 or 200. The 200 is readily available, runs for weeks on 2AA batteries, and has MS-DOS 5 and a decent serial port. Screen is not backlit, but is fairly readable in daylight. Keyboard is calculator style, but has a numberic keypad in addition to the alpha keys and is not bad to use. Bob From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 18 16:37:08 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:37:08 -0700 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20110518135643.O94591@shell.lmi.net> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3F32D.1090405@neurotica.com> <20110518135643.O94591@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 2:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? > > When will my OQOs become "vintage"? > > > Howzbout: > HP95LX > The tablet that Fujitsu came out with when they bought out Poqet > Antikythera!! > iPaq pocket computers with Windoze CE (Palm Pilot competitor) > > > You could probably install Windoze 3.00 on a Poqet! 8086??, CGA video > > > "Vintage", "portable", and "computer" always need to be defined each > and > every time they are used. "Smaller than Z88" is a pretty restrictive > definion for portable! All of the luggables (5100, etc.), and even the > Macintosh were called "portable" when they came out. > My SparcStation Voyager is 'portable' - comes in its own nylon suitcase! -- Ian From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 18 16:45:20 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:45:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <972744.50693.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/18/11, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > That chassis may be > Perfectly fine at rest, but keep in mind that its > Very likely the transformer was originally shipped separate > from the chassis when > The unit was new, 30 or 40 or 50 years ago. This is a particularly serious problem when an item is to be shipped as a parcel. Most people do not realize that UPS/FedEX/USPS routinely drop these parcels from a height of several feet in routine handling. I've seen the boxes dropping from the chutes onto conveyors at the local UPS depot. I've heard that trucks are loaded from chutes as well. Delivery drivers try to save their backs as well, and would rather slide something heavy off the back of the truck than handle it gently. Your once nice PDP-8E may land face down on the pavement. Many items of a size and weight that would be acceptable to a parcel carrier would be much better off as palletized freight. Various sorts of mishandling are certainly still possible, but it is unlikely that the item will be dropped, and it will kept in an approximately horizontal orientation at all times. It is nearly impossible, for example, to ship an ASR-33 teletype safely as a parcel. With a single shipping bolt to secure the internals, I've had several shipped undamaged boxed up on a pallet. --Bill From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 18 16:57:13 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WARNING! Avoid Craters and Freighters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <526748.85249.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 5/18/11, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Part of the problem is that they were instructed to remove > each > drawer, put padding in, and shrink wrap it.? I gather > they sort of > did this on 3 drawers of type.? Things would have gone > a lot better > *IF* they'd followed instructions.? They basically > totally > disregarded the instructions on how to pack everything. I would have made sure that these instructions were clearly represented in the paperwork, and made sure the shipment was fully insured. If you deal with a carrier that specializes in high-value shipments, and pay for that grade of service, this is possible. If they said "we're not responsible for damage to computers, etc.", either they were referring to issues that are clearly out of their domain (normal vibration, disk heads that were not locked, exceedingly fragile items requiring more than ordinary care) or you were trying to get by with a lower grade of service. Rates for shipment of computers are considerably higher than for shipment of low-value goods, which are again higher than for shipment of scrap. Besides weight and density, liability exposure is one of the factors that figures into basic motor freight rates, in addition to extra charges for insurance. There is a standard system of freight classes (NMFC) that most carriers use to set rates. --Bill From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 17:07:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:07:54 -0600 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921 at imr-da06.mx.aol.com>, vintagecoder at aol.com writes: > There are at least 2 Palm-hosted Forth systems and a common LISP. I've got an original Palm Pilot that would be fun to hack and as a result of this discussion I looked for a FORTH environment but couldn't find one. Do you have a URL? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 18 17:13:53 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 15:13:53 -0700 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Sent: Wednesday, May 18, 2011 3:08 PM > To: cctalk > Subject: Re: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? > > > In article <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921 at imr-da06.mx.aol.com>, > vintagecoder at aol.com writes: > > > There are at least 2 Palm-hosted Forth systems and a common LISP. > > I've got an original Palm Pilot that would be fun to hack and as a > result of this discussion I looked for a FORTH environment but > couldn't find one. Do you have a URL? And for the LISP! I have one that was upgraded to a screamin' 2MB. -- Ian From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 17:29:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:29:54 -0600 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > > In article <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921 at imr-da06.mx.aol.com>, > > vintagecoder at aol.com writes: > > > > > There are at least 2 Palm-hosted Forth systems and a common LISP. > > > > I've got an original Palm Pilot that would be fun to hack and as a > > result of this discussion I looked for a FORTH environment but > > couldn't find one. Do you have a URL? > > And for the LISP! I have one that was upgraded to a screamin' 2MB. -- Ian Found a free scheme: Found a commercial FORTH from Quartus. Any free/OSS ones out there? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 18 17:36:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 16:36:21 -0600 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: <20110518124926.B90010@shell.lmi.net> <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: Found a GPL FORTH for Palm Pilot: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed May 18 18:14:27 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 19:14:27 -0400 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board Message-ID: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> pdp11 CPU on S100 board? jim s jws at jwsss.com Tue May 17 19:50:06 CDT 2011 * Previous message: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? * Next message: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with getting documenation translated if it can be had. I passed him three auctions with the parts I believe people here could bid on and obtain. He also looked for some information and sent it to me. [snip] -----REPLY----- Hi Jim! Thanks! I appreciate your enthusiasm for the S-100 PDP-11 CPU board project. I am willing to capture a schematic in KiCAD, layout a PCB, and get some prototype boards for build and test. At S100computers.com and N8VEM home brew computing project we have a substantial library of free/open source S-100 board designs we could reuse and borrow from to reduce technical risk. However we are missing an important part of this project -- someone to the design the board! I know almost nothing about PDP-11 and certainly not enough to design an S-100 CPU board based on one. Nearly any S-100 CPU board is a significant design effort even with the mere 8080 which the S-100 supports almost natively. Were someone to send me a handwritten schematic I could capture it in KiCAD and send it out for review. Hopefully the datasheets can be made available or translated. That would be helpful. Also, a reliable source of the chips would be helpful too. However, I would like for people to have realistic expectations. This project won't happen unless an actual designer steps forward. This is a substantial project and it will require many skilled and able hands. It would also need someone to write and/or modify an existing free/open source PDP-11 operating system to use existing S-100 peripherals. I suspect that is a major task as well for which we have no volunteers. I would like to see this project happen but it is missing key participants to make it work. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed May 18 19:28:30 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 00:28:30 +0000 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? References: Message-ID: <201105190028.p4J0SdCo021504@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com> Richard wrote: > In article , Ian King > writes: > > In article <201105182111.p4ILBWvg008921 at imr-da06.mx.aol.com>, > > vintagecoder at aol.com writes: > > > > > There are at least 2 Palm-hosted Forth systems and a common LISP. > > > > I've got an original Palm Pilot that would be fun to hack and as a > > result of this discussion I looked for a FORTH environment but > > couldn't find one. Do you have a URL? > > And for the LISP! I have one that was upgraded to a screamin' 2MB. -- > Ian >>>Found a free scheme: That's the one! Sorry, I remembered it wrong, I was thinking it was CLISP. I have it installed but haven't used it much. If you install it be sure and run the geometric shapes demo. It's incredible what a Scheme interpreter running on an old Dragonball can do. >>>Found a commercial FORTH from Quartus. Any free/OSS ones out there? Looks from your next email you found them all. I believe there is a trial of Quartus, I don't know in what way it's limited. Kind of pricey at almost a hundred bucks last time I looked, especially since you can now buy prime NOS Palms for 40 bucks. The doc is free, online, and good though. There used to be a very active development community and tons and tons of great code for Palms, most of it free. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68X, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed May 18 19:52:49 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 00:52:49 +0000 Subject: [OT] more Palm-hosted compilers Message-ID: <201105190052.p4J0qvcY016878@imr-da05.mx.aol.com> Here's an interesting freebie. I haven't tried it yet but it looks worth trying. Still actively developed, the guy is porting it to Android. http://www.ppcompiler.org/index.php?lng=en From feldman.r at comcast.net Wed May 18 20:34:24 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 01:34:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? Message-ID: <787894710.882823.1305768864635.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> >Message: 21 >Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 14:07:09 -0700 (PDT) >From: Fred Cisin < cisin at xenosoft.com > >Subject: Re: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? > >Howzbout: >HP95LX The 95LX runs MS-DOS 3.0, has a non-standard serial port, and non-standard screen, so I would go with the 200LX. >The tablet that Fujitsu came out with when they bought out Poqet This Poqet (the Poqet Plus, IIRC) can use more PC cards than the two earlier models (PQ165 and PQ181), but might be hard to locate. You will almost certainly need to rebuild the rechargeable NiCad battery. The earlier models use 2 AA batteries. >Antikythera!! I don't think that was programmable and I doubt that you can find one for sale. >iPaq pocket computers with Windoze CE ?(Palm Pilot competitor) > >You could probably install Windoze 3.00 on a Poqet! ? 8086??, CGA video Yep, I have Windows 3.0 on my Poqet PQ181 (the middle model). Works nicely with a Barbie (as in the Mattel doll) pen mouse, which might still be available from California Digital, but the serial port adapter is hard to find. If anyone is interested, I think I still have the artwork I made up to make a serial port adapter from printed circuit board. As to the HP LX palmtops, since they run MS-DOS, you can use any number of programming languages. I have used MASM and Turbo C 2.0 on both the 95LX and 200LX. I have a 200LX and?3 Poqets (only one is working, though), but I have heard good things about the Psion 5. Bob From shumaker at att.net Wed May 18 21:15:20 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 19:15:20 -0700 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers Message-ID: <4DD47D38.80304@att.net> Anyone interested in several cartons of empty 8" floppy boxes? A few are cardboard but most are the typical plastic unit. There are at least several dozen. Last chance before the recycler..... steve From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 18 21:58:49 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 21:58:49 -0500 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: <4DD47D38.80304@att.net> References: <4DD47D38.80304@att.net> Message-ID: howmuch for 1 or 2 shipped to manitoba canada of the plastic ones? On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 9:15 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > Anyone interested in several cartons of empty 8" floppy boxes? A few are > cardboard but most are the typical plastic unit. There are at least several > dozen. > > Last chance before the recycler..... > > steve > From shumaker at att.net Wed May 18 22:27:48 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:27:48 -0700 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers Message-ID: <4DD48E34.8000808@att.net> wow - unexpected response! steve: the large flat rate is 12x12x5.5 so 3 will just fit on the short dimension... Adrian: not sure if flat rate goes to Canada - let me check Erik: I'm in Boulder Creek so we could meet someplace for the rest... steve From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 18 22:30:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:30:24 -0700 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> References: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4DD48ED0.5030103@brouhaha.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a > fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with > getting documenation translated if it can be had. Just getting scans of the documentation in Russian would be a huge step forward. I've dealt with Russian datasheets using Google Translate, and have several friends with varying degrees of fluency in Russian. In fact, I'd personally much rather have scans of the Russian documentation than to have a translation but not the originals. (Having both would be great!) Eric From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 18 22:31:56 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 22:31:56 -0500 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: <4DD48E34.8000808@att.net> References: <4DD48E34.8000808@att.net> Message-ID: flate rate last time i checked came up here On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:27 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > wow - unexpected response! > > steve: the large flat rate is 12x12x5.5 so 3 will just fit on the short > dimension... > > Adrian: not sure if flat rate goes to Canada - let me check > > Erik: I'm in Boulder Creek so we could meet someplace for the rest... > > steve > From shumaker at att.net Wed May 18 22:38:02 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 20:38:02 -0700 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: References: <4DD48E34.8000808@att.net> Message-ID: <4DD4909A.9050900@att.net> after looking, yup it does - but looks like first class would be cheaper. ya want a couple? steve On 5/18/2011 8:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > flate rate last time i checked came up here > > On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:27 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > > >> wow - unexpected response! >> >> steve: the large flat rate is 12x12x5.5 so 3 will just fit on the short >> dimension... >> >> Adrian: not sure if flat rate goes to Canada - let me check >> >> Erik: I'm in Boulder Creek so we could meet someplace for the rest... >> >> steve >> >> > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 18 22:42:18 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 22:42:18 -0500 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: <4DD4909A.9050900@att.net> References: <4DD48E34.8000808@att.net> <4DD4909A.9050900@att.net> Message-ID: yes i would be interested in a couple plastic ones On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:38 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > after looking, yup it does - but looks like first class would be cheaper. > ya want a couple? > > steve > > > On 5/18/2011 8:31 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> flate rate last time i checked came up here >> >> On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:27 PM, steve shumaker >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> wow - unexpected response! >>> >>> steve: the large flat rate is 12x12x5.5 so 3 will just fit on the short >>> dimension... >>> >>> Adrian: not sure if flat rate goes to Canada - let me check >>> >>> Erik: I'm in Boulder Creek so we could meet someplace for the rest... >>> >>> steve >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed May 18 22:45:31 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 18 May 2011 23:45:31 -0400 Subject: pdp 8a loader? In-Reply-To: References: <4DD2ECC5.1030003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Looks like you either have mass storage you don't know about, or you have an "entire" OS in ROM. Though, as a question, do you have semi-conductor RAM or core RAM? Becuase, if it's core quite amazingly you might have the last program that ran on the 8/a still in memory (though, that's incredibly doubtful). If you have semi-conductor RAM, you might seriously want to consider trading your bootstrap/powerfail card for something different, mostly because it would be somewhat annoying always booting into the previous device's OS. As an idea, have you tried running the system WITHOUT the bootstrap/powerfail board? You can quite possibly alleviate this problem by just not having a ROM board present. (Though, as an idea, you might wish to get the ROM chips dumped and the images put up on the internet, as some might find the in built software interesting; also, while it's out you might be able to load ROMs of programs that will be useful to you (such as, for example FOCAL or BASIC (or both!) in ROM, giving you a useful system).) Cheers to you. On 18 May 2011 11:43, Adrian Stoness wrote: > and when i try to load the rim it does not take but then i duno what i am > doing so i could be doing it all wrong > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 19 00:17:46 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 00:17:46 -0500 Subject: pdp 8a loader? In-Reply-To: References: <4DD2ECC5.1030003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: as discussed in the irc its core ram yes and i have the os on paper tape if anyone knows how i can hook up my h10 to my laptop to copy the tapes / take the bin's of bit savers to make tapes from?? http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/8412/tapes4.jpg the cards i got M8315 ? KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) M8317 ? KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) M8316 ? DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) G649 ? MM8AA 8K Core stack. H219A ? MM8AA 8K Core memory control. On Wed, May 18, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > Looks like you either have mass storage you don't know about, or you > have an "entire" OS in ROM. > > Though, as a question, do you have semi-conductor RAM or core RAM? > Becuase, if it's core quite amazingly you might have the last program > that ran on the 8/a still in memory (though, that's incredibly > doubtful). If you have semi-conductor RAM, you might seriously want to > consider trading your bootstrap/powerfail card for something > different, mostly because it would be somewhat annoying always booting > into the previous device's OS. > > > As an idea, have you tried running the system WITHOUT the > bootstrap/powerfail board? You can quite possibly alleviate this > problem by just not having a ROM board present. (Though, as an idea, > you might wish to get the ROM chips dumped and the images put up on > the internet, as some might find the in built software interesting; > also, while it's out you might be able to load ROMs of programs that > will be useful to you (such as, for example FOCAL or BASIC (or both!) > in ROM, giving you a useful system).) > > > Cheers to you. > > > > On 18 May 2011 11:43, Adrian Stoness wrote: > > and when i try to load the rim it does not take but then i duno what i am > > doing so i could be doing it all wrong > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu May 19 02:52:26 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 08:52:26 +0100 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> References: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: Perhaps we should start by looking at the difference between the Q-bus and S-100 bus. It also strikes me that that if we can do that that why not our own hobbyists Q-Bus CPU card? Made from USSR chips, FPLA or what have you. Let's try for say a 25 MHz PDP-11 CPU board. If Mentec and what happened was not such a deep dark secret, then that might have been a starting point. To try and explain my thinking lets look at classic cars as an analogy. Notice I said 'classic' not vintage or veteran. The UK has always been the home (with one or two exceptions) of small sports cars. One of the better known marques was (and is) MG. Their MGB and MGBGT models were produced in relatively large numbers and there are still something in excess of 100,000 still running. When production ceased a company bought up the tooling and still produces three or four MGB body shells per day strictly for the amateur restorer / reproducer market. The owners club stocks all the other parts and new 1975 model MGB's get built. So restoring a PDP-8 or PDP-11 is one thing but building a new one from scratch is more of a challenge. Regards ? Rod Smallwood (Digital Equipment Corporation 1975 - 1985) ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 19 May 2011 00:14 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: pdp11 CPU on S100 board pdp11 CPU on S100 board? jim s jws at jwsss.com Tue May 17 19:50:06 CDT 2011 * Previous message: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? * Next message: pdp11 CPU on S100 board? * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with getting documenation translated if it can be had. I passed him three auctions with the parts I believe people here could bid on and obtain. He also looked for some information and sent it to me. [snip] -----REPLY----- Hi Jim! Thanks! I appreciate your enthusiasm for the S-100 PDP-11 CPU board project. I am willing to capture a schematic in KiCAD, layout a PCB, and get some prototype boards for build and test. At S100computers.com and N8VEM home brew computing project we have a substantial library of free/open source S-100 board designs we could reuse and borrow from to reduce technical risk. However we are missing an important part of this project -- someone to the design the board! I know almost nothing about PDP-11 and certainly not enough to design an S-100 CPU board based on one. Nearly any S-100 CPU board is a significant design effort even with the mere 8080 which the S-100 supports almost natively. Were someone to send me a handwritten schematic I could capture it in KiCAD and send it out for review. Hopefully the datasheets can be made available or translated. That would be helpful. Also, a reliable source of the chips would be helpful too. However, I would like for people to have realistic expectations. This project won't happen unless an actual designer steps forward. This is a substantial project and it will require many skilled and able hands. It would also need someone to write and/or modify an existing free/open source PDP-11 operating system to use existing S-100 peripherals. I suspect that is a major task as well for which we have no volunteers. I would like to see this project happen but it is missing key participants to make it work. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu May 19 03:21:26 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 09:21:26 +0100 Subject: empty 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: <4DD47D38.80304@att.net> References: <4DD47D38.80304@att.net> Message-ID: <4DD4D306.5010908@philpem.me.uk> On 19/05/11 03:15, steve shumaker wrote: > Anyone interested in several cartons of empty 8" floppy boxes? A few are > cardboard but most are the typical plastic unit. There are at least > several dozen. I wouldn't mind one or two of the plastic ones... assuming you don't mind shipping to the UK? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu May 19 03:57:00 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 09:57:00 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3F27B.7050607@neurotica.com> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3E817.7060204@wickensonline.co.uk> <4DD3F27B.7050607@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1305795420.3202.4.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> On Wed, 2011-05-18 at 12:23 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/18/11 11:39 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > > Thanks for the suggestions so far - I guess I'm maybe looking for those > > who have used devices in a similar situation to provide guidance. > > Certainly the Tandy 100 series would appear to be an ideal candidate. > > It's larger than a Z88. > > -Dave > Understood. Actually, what I'm looking for is something of a comparable size to the Z88 (in which I'd include the Tandy 100s) and a flat and not clamshell design. I found when using the Z88 that I could carry on working without putting a 'barrier' up between myself and others, which is what a laptop effectively does. So be it on a table or lying by the pool (which I intend to do a lot of!) the fact that I'm using a computing device is pretty much disguised. I'll reiterate that having a screen viewable in bright daylight conditions is an absolute must. That seems to narrow down the selection quite extensively... Thanks for all the other suggestions. Regards, Mark. From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 19 05:55:57 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 11:55:57 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1305795420.3202.4.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3E817.7060204@wickensonline.co.uk> <4DD3F27B.7050607@neurotica.com> <1305795420.3202.4.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> Message-ID: On 19 May 2011 09:57, Mark Wickens wrote: > On Wed, 2011-05-18 at 12:23 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 5/18/11 11:39 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: >> > Thanks for the suggestions so far - I guess I'm maybe looking for those >> > who have used devices in a similar situation to provide guidance. >> > Certainly the Tandy 100 series would appear to be an ideal candidate. >> >> ? ?It's larger than a Z88. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? -Dave >> > > Understood. Actually, what I'm looking for is something of a comparable > size to the Z88 (in which I'd include the Tandy 100s) and a flat and not > clamshell design. I found when using the Z88 that I could carry on > working without putting a 'barrier' up between myself and others, which > is what a laptop effectively does. So be it on a table or lying by the > pool (which I intend to do a lot of!) the fact that I'm using a > computing device is pretty much disguised. > > I'll reiterate that having a screen viewable in bright daylight > conditions is an absolute must. That seems to narrow down the selection > quite extensively... > > Thanks for all the other suggestions. In that case, look at an Amstrad NC100, 150 or 200. After yesterday's post, I went searching eBay. No 200s, one 150, but /loads/ of 100s and they typically sell for under a tenner! Has Protext and BBC BASIC in ROM. I'm wondering if there's any way to get modern Flash media working in one... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 19 08:28:58 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 07:28:58 -0600 Subject: Does anyone have a Zenith Z29? In-Reply-To: <546802.40838.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <546802.40838.qm@web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <546802.40838.qm at web121620.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Mr Ian Primus writes: > I've recently acquired a Morrow MDT 60, which, as far as I had always > known, is basically just a Zenith Z29. Unless a Zenith Z29 is different from a Heath H-29, I don't believe this is true. I took some pictures of my H-29: Mine has screws on the rear of the enclosure to remove the circuit board. There are no screws on the bottom of the enclosure, just the rubber feet. Somewhere I think I have a manual for this, but I'm not certain where it is at the moment. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 19 08:52:19 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 06:52:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: This is a test. Message-ID: <407876.76888.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> This is only a test, if this were a real message, then it wouldn't be a test. Just testing, for some reason, the last two times I've tried to reply to a list message, I get a bounce: Remote host said: 553 5.3.0 Spam blocked -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 19 09:00:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:00:57 -0400 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1305795420.3202.4.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> References: <488658.35806.qm@web121611.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4DD3C442.4050805@neurotica.com> <4DD3E817.7060204@wickensonline.co.uk> <4DD3F27B.7050607@neurotica.com> <1305795420.3202.4.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> Message-ID: <4DD52299.80106@neurotica.com> On 5/19/11 4:57 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Understood. Actually, what I'm looking for is something of a comparable > size to the Z88 (in which I'd include the Tandy 100s) and a flat and not > clamshell design. Gotcha. If you're willing to go *slightly* larger than a Z88 (the '8201, etc, are considerably thicker) then that opens up quite a few interesting possibilities. > I found when using the Z88 that I could carry on > working without putting a 'barrier' up between myself and others, which > is what a laptop effectively does. So be it on a table or lying by the > pool (which I intend to do a lot of!) the fact that I'm using a > computing device is pretty much disguised. So, you don't think looking down at a display and typing on a keyboard is going to give it away, huh? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Thu May 19 09:15:48 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 07:15:48 -0700 Subject: 8" floppy containers Message-ID: <4DD52614.5090305@att.net> response was surprising - everything is spoken for! Steve From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 19 09:24:09 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:24:09 -0400 Subject: This is a test. In-Reply-To: <407876.76888.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <407876.76888.qm@web121604.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DD52809.2080600@atarimuseum.com> {THIS IS A TEST OF THE EMERGENCY IAN PRIMUS SYSTEM}... If this had been an actual emergency, you would be instructed as to where to send your Prime computer equipment to Ian.... ;-) Mr Ian Primus wrote: > This is only a test, if this were a real message, then it wouldn't be a test. > > > Just testing, for some reason, the last two times I've tried to reply to a list message, I get a bounce: > > Remote host said: 553 5.3.0 Spam blocked > > -Ian > > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu May 19 04:54:36 2011 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 11:54:36 +0200 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board References: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> <4DD48ED0.5030103@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <460582C1F63344E1888CA519A205C160@Pc12> hello here you will find several issues of 'bk revue' http://bk0010-private.leob.com/PK-BK/ it is about bk0010 that uses a K1801 VM1 that is a pdp11/03 compatible,in this revue you will find lots of schematics ,data sheets with time diagrams ,(all this do not require the understand russian language),explanations ,programs, also on http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/ you will find lots of docs about bk,dvk,uknc all use the same processor,all this should help you in building your own system.Those microprocessors are a part of a big serie ,gate arrays in fact,this family called kr1801, has several useful members: KR1801VP1-128 is a fdc used in bk ,and uknc KR1801VM1 is the 11/03 KR1801VP1-065 and KR1801VP1-035 are serial controllers (dl11 similar) All those are easily available in russia or around ,new ,in shops,and are not expensive ,the KR1801VM1 costs 1.01euro= 1.42usd at http://www.evita.lt/en/p-catalogue/(yes a pdp 11 for 1.42usd!!!this is really minicomputers for everyone ,Ken Olsen had not dreamed of that) I was not able to find data sheet ,but schematics exist where you can see their use: in the bk0010 ,or uknc for the processor,un the uknc and dvk for the serial controller,here for the fdc of uknc http://www.sensi.org/~tnt23/uknc/ I would sure find others things... It seems others chips exist for example a dma controller be careful in looking at the packages ,I found that some of the circuits are labeled in latin alphabet ,some in cyrillics:))) I hope this will help in clarifying thing,best regards to all A.Nierveze ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 5:30 AM Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a >> fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with >> getting documenation translated if it can be had. > Just getting scans of the documentation in Russian would be a huge step > forward. I've dealt with Russian datasheets using Google Translate, and > have several friends with varying degrees of fluency in Russian. In fact, > I'd personally much rather have scans of the Russian documentation than to > have a translation but not the originals. (Having both would be great!) > > Eric > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 19 10:28:26 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:28:26 -0500 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: <460582C1F63344E1888CA519A205C160@Pc12> References: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> <4DD48ED0.5030103@brouhaha.com> <460582C1F63344E1888CA519A205C160@Pc12> Message-ID: nice find wonders why software is password protected though On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 4:54 AM, nierveze wrote: > hello > here you will find several issues of 'bk revue' > http://bk0010-private.leob.com/PK-BK/ > it is about bk0010 that uses a > K1801 VM1 > > that is a pdp11/03 compatible,in this revue you will find lots of > schematics ,data sheets with time diagrams ,(all this do not require the > understand russian language),explanations ,programs, > > also on > > http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/ > you will find lots of docs about bk,dvk,uknc all use the same processor,all > this should help you in building your own system.Those microprocessors are a > part of a big serie ,gate arrays in fact,this family called kr1801, has > > several useful members: > > KR1801VP1-128 is a fdc used in bk ,and uknc > > KR1801VM1 is the 11/03 > > KR1801VP1-065 and KR1801VP1-035 > > are serial controllers (dl11 similar) > > All those are easily available in russia or around ,new ,in shops,and are > not expensive ,the KR1801VM1 costs 1.01euro= > > 1.42usd at http://www.evita.lt/en/p-catalogue/(yes a pdp 11 for > 1.42usd!!!this is really minicomputers for everyone ,Ken Olsen had not > dreamed of that) > > I was not able to find data sheet ,but schematics exist where you can see > their use: > > in the bk0010 ,or uknc for the processor,un the uknc > > and dvk for the serial controller,here for the fdc of uknc > > http://www.sensi.org/~tnt23/uknc/ > > I would sure find others things... > > It seems others chips exist for example a dma controller > > be careful in looking at the packages ,I found that some of the circuits > are labeled in latin alphabet ,some in cyrillics:))) > > I hope this will help in clarifying thing,best regards to all > > A.Nierveze > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 5:30 AM > Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board > > > > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> >>> I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a >>> fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with >>> getting documenation translated if it can be had. >>> >> Just getting scans of the documentation in Russian would be a huge step >> forward. I've dealt with Russian datasheets using Google Translate, and >> have several friends with varying degrees of fluency in Russian. In fact, >> I'd personally much rather have scans of the Russian documentation than to >> have a translation but not the originals. (Having both would be great!) >> >> Eric >> >> >> > From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu May 19 10:30:10 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:30:10 -0500 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <201105180648.p4I6mZDt015428@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> References: <4DD2E223.1060208@bitsavers.org> <201105180648.p4I6mZDt015428@imr-da06.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DD53782.60300@tx.rr.com> On 5/18/2011 1:48 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> On 5/17/11 1:00 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> >> Al, do you have a copy of the Borland Turbo Assembler doc for v5? > >>> I have some docs that are not on line, I'll check if I have an assembler >>> manual > > Thanks. I saw some manuals for earlier releases but I am hoping to find > the doc specifically for v5 for DOS/Windows. > > And a huge THANK YOU for running the bitsavers site and for your other > doc/software archival activities! > Since I've not seen anything else about this, I assume these manuals are still wanted. Talk about perfect timing! I was just packing away a bunch of stuff last week and one thing was the Borland version 5.0 Turbo Assembler box with the cardboard sleeve still around it. The larger box I put it in was still on the top of a pile and very easy to find this morning as a result. It contains the following: o Borland Turbo Assembler Quick Reference o Borland Turbo Assembler User's Guide o Borland Turbo Debugger User's Guide o Three 3.5" floppies labeled Borland Turbo Assembler Disk 1/2/3 I don't recall whether the debugger had its own floppy or not. If so and it's wanted, I may have that somewhere as well. I'll be glad to help out, but having never participated in one of these efforts I'm unsure how to proceed from here. Ship the whole box to Al? Just the assembler stuff? Other suggestions? (I don't have a functional scanner at the moment.) If we need to discuss this off list, my email address is: csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com. Later, Charlie Carothers From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 19 11:07:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:07:28 -0600 Subject: 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: <4DD52614.5090305@att.net> References: <4DD52614.5090305@att.net> Message-ID: In article <4DD52614.5090305 at att.net>, steve shumaker writes: > response was surprising - everything is spoken for! I guess I'm not surprised; I've accumulated a number of 8" floppies loose. Quite a number more than will fit in the few boxes that I have. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu May 19 11:37:46 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:37:46 +0000 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow References: <4DD53782.60300@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <201105191637.p4JGbodE006902@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> Charlie wrote: > Since I've not seen anything else about this, I assume these manuals are > still wanted. Talk about perfect timing! I was just packing away a > bunch of stuff last week and one thing was the Borland version 5.0 Turbo > Assembler box with the cardboard sleeve still around it. The larger box > I put it in was still on the top of a pile and very easy to find this > morning as a result. It contains the following: > o Borland Turbo Assembler Quick Reference > o Borland Turbo Assembler User's Guide > o Borland Turbo Debugger User's Guide > o Three 3.5" floppies labeled Borland Turbo Assembler Disk 1/2/3 > I don't recall whether the debugger had its own floppy or not. If so and > it's wanted, I may have that somewhere as well. > > I'll be glad to help out, but having never participated in one of these > efforts I'm unsure how to proceed from here. Ship the whole box to Al? > Just the assembler stuff? Other suggestions? (I don't have a > functional scanner at the moment.) > If we need to discuss this off list, my email address is: csquared3 at tx > dot rr dot com. Hi Charlie, Wow that's good news. Thanks for posting it. I hope you can save all that stuff and get the doc scanned in. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu May 19 12:02:28 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 10:02:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <215159.77497.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 5/19/11, Richard wrote: > > I guess I'm not surprised; I've accumulated a number of 8" > floppies > loose. Quite a number more than will fit in the few > boxes that I > have. There's a real simple way to fix that - simply mail all those loose disks to me, and that way all the disks you have will fit in the boxes! Or, I suppose you could get more boxes or something. -Ian From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 19 12:06:36 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 12:06:36 -0500 Subject: 8" floppy containers In-Reply-To: <215159.77497.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <215159.77497.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: lol On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 12:02 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 5/19/11, Richard wrote: > > > > > I guess I'm not surprised; I've accumulated a number of 8" > > floppies > > loose. Quite a number more than will fit in the few > > boxes that I > > have. > > There's a real simple way to fix that - simply mail all those loose disks > to me, and that way all the disks you have will fit in the boxes! > > Or, I suppose you could get more boxes or something. > > -Ian > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu May 19 12:31:16 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 12:31:16 -0500 Subject: pdp11 CPU on S100 board In-Reply-To: References: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> <4DD48ED0.5030103@brouhaha.com> <460582C1F63344E1888CA519A205C160@Pc12> Message-ID: hmm http://www.radio-astronomie.com/ordinosaurus.htm On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > nice find wonders why software is password protected though > > > On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 4:54 AM, nierveze wrote: > >> hello >> here you will find several issues of 'bk revue' >> http://bk0010-private.leob.com/PK-BK/ >> it is about bk0010 that uses a >> K1801 VM1 >> >> that is a pdp11/03 compatible,in this revue you will find lots of >> schematics ,data sheets with time diagrams ,(all this do not require the >> understand russian language),explanations ,programs, >> >> also on >> >> http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/ >> you will find lots of docs about bk,dvk,uknc all use the same >> processor,all this should help you in building your own system.Those >> microprocessors are a part of a big serie ,gate arrays in fact,this family >> called kr1801, has >> >> several useful members: >> >> KR1801VP1-128 is a fdc used in bk ,and uknc >> >> KR1801VM1 is the 11/03 >> >> KR1801VP1-065 and KR1801VP1-035 >> >> are serial controllers (dl11 similar) >> >> All those are easily available in russia or around ,new ,in shops,and are >> not expensive ,the KR1801VM1 costs 1.01euro= >> >> 1.42usd at http://www.evita.lt/en/p-catalogue/(yes a pdp 11 for >> 1.42usd!!!this is really minicomputers for everyone ,Ken Olsen had not >> dreamed of that) >> >> I was not able to find data sheet ,but schematics exist where you can see >> their use: >> >> in the bk0010 ,or uknc for the processor,un the uknc >> >> and dvk for the serial controller,here for the fdc of uknc >> >> http://www.sensi.org/~tnt23/uknc/ >> >> I would sure find others things... >> >> It seems others chips exist for example a dma controller >> >> be careful in looking at the packages ,I found that some of the circuits >> are labeled in latin alphabet ,some in cyrillics:))) >> >> I hope this will help in clarifying thing,best regards to all >> >> A.Nierveze >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 5:30 AM >> Subject: Re: pdp11 CPU on S100 board >> >> >> >> Andrew Lynch wrote: >>> >>>> I have raised the issue of documentation for the Soviet parts with a >>>> fellow who posted here recently who lives in Moscow. He will help with >>>> getting documenation translated if it can be had. >>>> >>> Just getting scans of the documentation in Russian would be a huge step >>> forward. I've dealt with Russian datasheets using Google Translate, and >>> have several friends with varying degrees of fluency in Russian. In fact, >>> I'd personally much rather have scans of the Russian documentation than to >>> have a translation but not the originals. (Having both would be great!) >>> >>> Eric >>> >>> >>> >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 16:01:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 22:01:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <787894710.882823.1305768864635.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> from "feldman.r@comcast.net" at May 19, 11 01:34:24 am Message-ID: > The 95LX runs MS-DOS 3.0, has a non-standard serial port, and non-standard = > screen, so I would go with the 200LX.=20 IMHO the 95LX serial port is no more or less 'stnadard' than that on the 200LX. The 95LX has a 4 pin serial connector (just the data lines and gorunds). It is at RS232 levels, the serial cable is just a cable, no internal electronics (and it's the same cable as for the 48 series of calculators). The 100LX/200LX have a 10 pin serial connector (inclduing hardware handshake lines). Again at RS232 levels. And again yoy need a special cable (which again is just a cable) to turn it into a DE9 or DB25. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 19 16:13:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 22:13:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <1305795420.3202.4.camel@linux.hecnet.eu> from "Mark Wickens" at May 19, 11 09:57:00 am Message-ID: > Understood. Actually, what I'm looking for is something of a comparable > size to the Z88 (in which I'd include the Tandy 100s) and a flat and not > clamshell design. I found when using the Z88 that I could carry on I susemct that rules out Alison's suggestion of the Epson PX8. It has a flip-up display which ahs to be flipepd up to use it (it closes screen-side down). I think it cab be folted reight back, though, but you may thin that's still a 'clamshell' What about a PX4 though? It's only a 40 column display, but it closes screen-side up (and the machien can be used with it closed). It runs CP/M like the PX8. No idea where you'd find one. -tony > working without putting a 'barrier' up between myself and others, which > is what a laptop effectively does. So be it on a table or lying by the Odd... If I saw somebody using a truely vintage laptop, I'd want to talk to them (if only to suggest other machiens :-)). > pool (which I intend to do a lot of!) the fact that I'm using a > computing device is pretty much disguised. > > I'll reiterate that having a screen viewable in bright daylight > conditions is an absolute must. That seems to narrow down the selection > quite extensively... Are there any non-backlit LCDs that don't meet that requirement? -tony From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu May 19 16:31:32 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:31:32 -0500 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <201105191637.p4JGbodE006902@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> References: <4DD53782.60300@tx.rr.com> <201105191637.p4JGbodE006902@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DD58C34.8040103@tx.rr.com> On 5/19/2011 11:37 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Charlie wrote: > >> Since I've not seen anything else about this, I assume these manuals are >> still wanted. Talk about perfect timing! I was just packing away a >> bunch of stuff last week and one thing was the Borland version 5.0 Turbo >> Assembler box with the cardboard sleeve still around it. The larger box >> I put it in was still on the top of a pile and very easy to find this >> morning as a result. It contains the following: >> o Borland Turbo Assembler Quick Reference >> o Borland Turbo Assembler User's Guide >> o Borland Turbo Debugger User's Guide >> o Three 3.5" floppies labeled Borland Turbo Assembler Disk 1/2/3 > >> I don't recall whether the debugger had its own floppy or not. If so and >> it's wanted, I may have that somewhere as well. >> >> I'll be glad to help out, but having never participated in one of these >> efforts I'm unsure how to proceed from here. Ship the whole box to Al? >> Just the assembler stuff? Other suggestions? (I don't have a >> functional scanner at the moment.) >> If we need to discuss this off list, my email address is: csquared3 at tx >> dot rr dot com. > > Hi Charlie, > > Wow that's good news. Thanks for posting it. I hope you can save all that > stuff and get the doc scanned in. > You're very welcome. I'm always glad to help the community when I can. I'll be shipping it all to Al shortly. Later, Charlie C. From micheladam at theedge.ca Thu May 19 17:58:55 2011 From: micheladam at theedge.ca (Michel Adam) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 16:58:55 -0600 Subject: Telephone controled power? In-Reply-To: References: <97F78B199C3A4C9B934920C5488184AC@andrewdesktop> <4DD48ED0.5030103@brouhaha.com> <460582C1F63344E1888CA519A205C160@Pc12> Message-ID: In search of some list wisdom: In the mid 90's, when Canarie (a Canadian government sponsored early backbone provider) brought the internet to the Canadian north, they had a setup that used out-of-band control to switch power on/off on their equipment. >From memory, it was an off-the-shelf 2 or 4 socket power-bar, with a telephone connector, which 'I -think' also allowed passthrough of the phone signal to a modem. The idea being that a single phone line could be used to cycle the power to individual equipment, as well as being used to dial in to a console port on a router. Does anyone know of a current commercial solution that allows passthrough to a modem? All I can seem to find right now are solutions that only handle the remote control, or that are IP based, which is what I want to stay away from, unless the IP based solution also had a dial-in capability (with modem signaling). ??? Thanks Michel Adam micheladam at theedge.ca From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu May 19 18:05:21 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 00:05:21 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD5A231.7040801@wickensonline.co.uk> On 19/05/11 22:13, Tony Duell wrote: >> Understood. Actually, what I'm looking for is something of a comparable >> size to the Z88 (in which I'd include the Tandy 100s) and a flat and not >> clamshell design. I found when using the Z88 that I could carry on > I susemct that rules out Alison's suggestion of the Epson PX8. It has a > flip-up display which ahs to be flipepd up to use it (it closes > screen-side down). I think it cab be folted reight back, though, but you > may thin that's still a 'clamshell' > Well, the PX8 isn't really quite the physical barrier that a standard laptop would provide, and I certainly would welcome what I hear is an excellent keyboard. > What about a PX4 though? It's only a 40 column display, but it closes > screen-side up (and the machien can be used with it closed). It runs > CP/M like the PX8. No idea where you'd find one. > > -tony > Also have been suggested from other avenues that a PX-4 would be a good compromise. You are right however, without some patience I might be out of luck picking one up on ebay (or other channels) at short notice. >> working without putting a 'barrier' up between myself and others, which >> is what a laptop effectively does. So be it on a table or lying by the > Odd... If I saw somebody using a truely vintage laptop, I'd want to talk > to them (if only to suggest other machiens :-)). > Strange you should say that, as I had a couple of lads last year approach me to ask what the computer I was using was. My French not being that great the conversation was probably a bit shorter than required to fully explain what I was up to, but certainly there was some curiosity from folks carrying standard computing fair as to how I was managing to 'get on with it' in bright daylight. Has to be said, however, that in direct sunlight even the straight LCD of the Z88 was struggling when getting warm. The display went decidedly black and smudgy when the machine got too warm. >> pool (which I intend to do a lot of!) the fact that I'm using a >> computing device is pretty much disguised. >> >> I'll reiterate that having a screen viewable in bright daylight >> conditions is an absolute must. That seems to narrow down the selection >> quite extensively... > Are there any non-backlit LCDs that don't meet that requirement? > If you were to remove the non-clamshell requirement then something like a Panasonic Toughbook of good vintage would fulfill the requirements. As a few people have pointed out to date, the Z88 will take some beating in reality! Kudos to Sir Sinclair... Mark. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 19 20:55:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 18:55:26 -0700 Subject: OT: Kingston SDHC in SPI mode? Message-ID: <4DD5679E.11225.2B3EEE3@cclist.sydex.com> I'm putting this out because I know there are some who tinker with microcontroller applications on the list. I can't really get an answer from web searches. At any rate, I've got an ATMega AVR that I'm using with SDCards in SPI mode. I've got a random assortment of MMC and SD and SDHC cards and they all seem to work as expected--until I ran into a bunch of Kingston 4GB Class 4 SDHC cards (model SD-K04G). Then things fall apart. The cards function normally in SD mode. SanDisk 4GB SDHC cards work just fine. Here's the SPI conversation from its start: Sending: 40 00 00 00 00 95 Receiving: 01 Sending: 48 00 00 01 AA 87 Receiving: 05 Sending: 41 00 00 00 00 01 Receiving: 05 Note that both CMD8 and CMD1 fail with "illegal operation". I'm running the SPI clock at about 250KHz, so speed isn't the issue. Can anyone shed any light on this? --Chuck From doug at doughq.com Thu May 19 19:44:33 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:44:33 +1000 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 Message-ID: Hi everybody, I am sure that this has been solved, but I can't see a single cohesive way of doing it so I thought I would ask. I have a PDP11/04, with a RL01 disk drive. Ther are real physical hardware (about 40Kg each....) The hardware now operates - I can boot the custom software that is on one of the RL01 disk packs. It boots and displays "SYS5 READY~" then hangs - The system was used for a race track display board, so some of the custom hardware is not there. There are a couple of other packs that I have verified that don't boot, so what I would love to do is to load some useful software (RT11 or Basic or Forth....). I can not figure out how to actually do that - I have simulated images for SIMH, and can get SIMH to actually boot RT11, but I can't figure out how to actually move the data onto the nice, big, physical disk... Can somebody provide some advice? Doug (In sunny Canberra, Australia) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri May 20 01:56:08 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 07:56:08 +0100 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02f601cc16bb$00ea1ce0$02be56a0$@ntlworld.com> Not tried this myself yet (still trying to get my PDP11 PSU working again), but have a look here: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm Regard Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Doug Jackson > Sent: 20 May 2011 01:45 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 > > Hi everybody, > > I am sure that this has been solved, but I can't see a single cohesive way of > doing it so I thought I would ask. > > I have a PDP11/04, with a RL01 disk drive. Ther are real physical hardware > (about 40Kg each....) > > The hardware now operates - I can boot the custom software that is on one of > the RL01 disk packs. It boots and displays "SYS5 READY~" then hangs - The > system was used for a race track display board, so some of the custom > hardware is not there. > > There are a couple of other packs that I have verified that don't boot, so what > I would love to do is to load some useful software (RT11 or Basic or Forth....). > > I can not figure out how to actually do that - I have simulated images for SIMH, > and can get SIMH to actually boot RT11, but I can't figure out how to actually > move the data onto the nice, big, physical disk... > > Can somebody provide some advice? > > Doug > (In sunny Canberra, Australia) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri May 20 01:59:46 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 23:59:46 -0700 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD61162.3060304@mail.msu.edu> On 5/19/2011 2:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The 95LX runs MS-DOS 3.0, has a non-standard serial port, and non-standard = >> screen, so I would go with the 200LX.=20 > IMHO the 95LX serial port is no more or less 'stnadard' than that on the > 200LX. > > The 95LX has a 4 pin serial connector (just the data lines and gorunds). > It is at RS232 levels, the serial cable is just a cable, no internal > electronics (and it's the same cable as for the 48 series of calculators). The port wiring is not less of a standard than the 200LX, but I recall there's a bug in the serial port hardware on the 95LX that prevents a lot of software from working with it properly. (I was bummed at the time that Telix wouldn't run on it.) It has been awhile, so I may be misremembering this. - Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 20 08:21:15 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 09:21:15 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> >Doug Jackson wrote: >Hi everybody, > >I am sure that this has been solved, but I can't see a single cohesive way >of doing it so I thought I would ask. > >I have a PDP11/04, with a RL01 disk drive. Ther are real physical hardware >(about 40Kg each....) > >The hardware now operates - I can boot the custom software that is on one of >the RL01 disk packs. It boots and displays "SYS5 READY~" then hangs - The >system was used for a race track display board, so some of the custom >hardware is not there. > >There are a couple of other packs that I have verified that don't boot, so >what I would love to do is to load some useful software (RT11 or Basic or >Forth....). > >I can not figure out how to actually do that - I have simulated images for >SIMH, and can get SIMH to actually boot RT11, but I can't figure out how to >actually move the data onto the nice, big, physical disk... > >Can somebody provide some advice? > >Doug >(In sunny Canberra, Australia) > > Normally, you must start with RT-11 already on the RL01 pack along with Kermit or some other method of making file transfers. Since you are essentially starting with a blank RL01 pack, this poses a problem. Since you are so far away, the postage to send an RL01 pack with RT-11 would be expensive - and I don't have one in any case. One possibility is that you are actually booting RT-11, just that you don't know it. This is unlikely if your system hangs and you can't use to get back to RT-11. On the other hand, the user application program which is running may have disabled the abort capability. One way to test that is to boot the custom software, then IMMEDIATELY start to enter as fast as and as many times as possible to prevent that "SYS5 READY~" message. If RT-11 has actually been used and abort has not already been disabled, then you may see the RT-11 "." prompt and be able to enter other commands. It make not always work, so try this a few times before you give up. Let us know if that happens. Otherwise, I suspect that the solution might be to enter a program using ODT to copy a program to the RL01. This would not be too difficult, but you would need to write the program under SIMH and test it, then enter it via ODT on the PDP-11/04. Another solution would be to find a Unibus host adapter and load the software under SIMH to a SCSI hard drive. The SCSI hard drive might be inexpensive, but Unibus SCSI host adapters are very expensive. Can I help in some other way. Jerome Fine From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 20 10:08:31 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 10:08:31 -0500 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> As was mentioned, vtserver really does work pretty well... although it is slow at 9600 baud. I have transfered XXDP, RSTS and RT-11 to blank RL02 this way and then boot the machine from those. I prepare the images in SIMH and the resulting .dsk image file is what you transfer with vtserver. vtserver documentation talks a lot about unix but it works fine for bootstrapping these other OS too. Chris (PDP-11/34A with (2) RL02 and MSCP SCSI w/ dual ZIP drives) On Friday (05/20/2011 at 09:21AM -0400), Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Doug Jackson wrote: > >> Hi everybody, >> >> I am sure that this has been solved, but I can't see a single cohesive way >> of doing it so I thought I would ask. >> >> I have a PDP11/04, with a RL01 disk drive. Ther are real physical hardware >> (about 40Kg each....) >> >> The hardware now operates - I can boot the custom software that is on one of >> the RL01 disk packs. It boots and displays "SYS5 READY~" then hangs - The >> system was used for a race track display board, so some of the custom >> hardware is not there. >> >> There are a couple of other packs that I have verified that don't boot, so >> what I would love to do is to load some useful software (RT11 or Basic or >> Forth....). >> >> I can not figure out how to actually do that - I have simulated images for >> SIMH, and can get SIMH to actually boot RT11, but I can't figure out how to >> actually move the data onto the nice, big, physical disk... >> >> Can somebody provide some advice? >> >> Doug >> (In sunny Canberra, Australia) >> >> > Normally, you must start with RT-11 already on the RL01 > pack along with Kermit or some other method of making file > transfers. Since you are essentially starting with a blank RL01 > pack, this poses a problem. > > Since you are so far away, the postage to send an RL01 pack > with RT-11 would be expensive - and I don't have one in any case. > > One possibility is that you are actually booting RT-11, just that > you don't know it. This is unlikely if your system hangs and you > can't use to get back to RT-11. On the other hand, > the user application program which is running may have disabled > the abort capability. One way to test that is to boot > the custom software, then IMMEDIATELY start to enter > > as fast as and as many times as possible to prevent that > "SYS5 READY~" > message. If RT-11 has actually been used and > abort has not already been disabled, then you may see the > RT-11 "." prompt and be able to enter other commands. > It make not always work, so try this a few times before you > give up. > > Let us know if that happens. > > Otherwise, I suspect that the solution might be to enter a > program using ODT to copy a program to the RL01. This > would not be too difficult, but you would need to write the > program under SIMH and test it, then enter it via ODT > on the PDP-11/04. > > Another solution would be to find a Unibus host adapter and > load the software under SIMH to a SCSI hard drive. The > SCSI hard drive might be inexpensive, but Unibus SCSI host > adapters are very expensive. > > Can I help in some other way. > > Jerome Fine -- Chris Elmquist From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri May 20 10:10:24 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 11:10:24 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi everybody, > > I have a PDP11/04, with a RL01 disk drive. ?Ther are real physical hardware > (about 40Kg each....) Nice. > The hardware now operates... Good. > I would love to ... load some useful software > > I can not figure out how to actually do that - I have simulated images for > SIMH, and can get SIMH to actually boot RT11, but I can't figure out how to > actually move the data onto the nice, big, physical disk... > > Can somebody provide some advice? As mentioned previously, there's vtserver (ftp://minnie.tuhs.org/pub/PDP-11/Vtserver/) - you would just need to hook your console line to a PC host and fire away, *but*, here's an important detail mentioned in the README file: "More specifically, I've used the Ersatz-11 2.0 demo simulator with various CPU models, and RL02 and RK05 disk images, to test copy. Here are the results: copy can read and write disk images for /24, /34A, /40, /44, /45, /70 and /94 systems when they have 256Kbytes of memory. It doesn't work for the 11/35 as it doesn't have the MUL instruction, which the 2.11BSD C compiler generates." The 11/04 maxes out at 56Kbytes (64K minus the I/O page). AFAIK, nobody has written a light-weight vtserver client, but I've thought about it more than once - it would be targeted to only have one client device driver at a time (unless there's room for RX and RL simultaneously), and wouldn't require 18-bit addressing, and if possible, would check for EIS and not use MUL if it wasn't available. Warren Toomey wrote the payload in C as the simplest course, and because his target environment was UNIX, his platform's resources far outstripped vtserver's needs. OTOH, there are plenty of completely useful PDP-11 configurations for DEC operating systems that do _not_ provide enough resources for vtserver as it stands today. One particular use I'd thought of for myself is to cobble up a lightweight client that could run on a PDT-11/150 to use it as an RX01 reader/writer for archiving boxes of floppies. Yes, there are other ways to read and write RX01s, but the next step up would be a smallish 11/03 or 11/04 and an RX02, and (because of the mixed density oddness) *those* have been more problematic to read and write. RXV11s are easier to find (IMO) than RXV21s, so a low-end RL01/RL02 archiver would also be of some use. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri May 20 11:44:48 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 09:44:48 -0700 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:44 AM +1000 5/20/11, Doug Jackson wrote: >I am sure that this has been solved, but I can't see a single cohesive way >of doing it so I thought I would ask. > >I have a PDP11/04, with a RL01 disk drive. Ther are real physical hardware >(about 40Kg each....) Any chance you have a VAX you can hook that RL01 to? That's how I did it on my first PDP-11. Now I boot from CD-ROM unless I'm trying to install RSTS/E (it's painful enough trying to use tapes). Unfortunately this isn't an option for all except a very few people. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 20 11:51:19 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:51:19 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <02f601cc16bb$00ea1ce0$02be56a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02f601cc16bb$00ea1ce0$02be56a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 May 2011, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Not tried this myself yet (still trying to get my PDP11 PSU working again), > but have a look here: http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm Bah, vtserver sucks. It doesn't run on small machines (and has problems on machines it officially supports, it never worked on my 11/45), the code is frightening (IIRC it's a 2.9BSD stand-alone program). I either use KSERVE/Kermit (on an already running host), or my own minimalistic dump/restore program that I wrote just to learn more about the architecture. I did an RK05 version that I used for my 11/45 when the first thing I wanted to do was to dump/archive the disks that came with the machine. The dump program was entered via ASCII upload to the console monitor from a DOS PC. Of course, you need an appropriate receive program on the other end. I'd recommend that you write your own RL01 version (of course, you want to archive your disks before you overwrite them!). Here's my RK05 dump (I need to find the source somewhere, but you can easily disassemble it with the help of the reference card - oh, that's how I assembled it...). Start address is 1000. Christian L 1000 D 005037 D 177570 D 005037 D 177412 D 005002 D 012703 D 177404 D 012700 D 2000 D 012701 D 1000 D 010037 D 177410 D 012737 D 177400 D 177406 D 105713 D 100376 D 012713 D 5 D 105713 D 100376 D 032713 D 40000 D 001013 D 105737 D 177564 D 100375 D 112037 D 177566 D 077106 D 005202 D 010237 D 177570 D 000137 D 1016 D 010200 D 052700 D 100000 D 010037 D 177570 D 013704 D 177412 D 012700 D 3000 D 013720 D 177402 D 013720 D 177404 D 010420 D 012713 D 1 D 105713 D 100376 D 005204 D 010405 D 042705 D 177760 D 020527 D 14 D 103404 D 042704 D 17 D 062704 D 20 D 010437 D 177412 D 012713 D 11 D 012700 D 3000 D 000137 D 1062 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 15:07:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:07:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD5A231.7040801@wickensonline.co.uk> from "Mark Wickens" at May 20, 11 00:05:21 am Message-ID: > > I susemct that rules out Alison's suggestion of the Epson PX8. It has a > > flip-up display which ahs to be flipepd up to use it (it closes > > screen-side down). I think it cab be folted reight back, though, but you > > may thin that's still a 'clamshell' > > > Well, the PX8 isn't really quite the physical barrier that a standard > laptop would provide, and I certainly would welcome what I hear is an > excellent keyboard. Kyeboard feel is a very personal thing IMHO. I persoanlly found the Tandy M100 to have the nicest keyboard of any of the early laptops I tieed (Epsons were a close second). I postiively hated the Z88 keyboard. One advantage of the PX8 over the PX4 is that his has a built-in microcassette drive. This appears as a sort-of disk drive to CP/M, but IIRC random access files are not possible on it. There's also a fairly small driectory size o nteh tape (12 files maximum IIRC), and you _must_ read the manual before using the tape, in particular if you don;t unmount the tape before removing it, you may lose data on that tape _and_ on the next one you use. The PX4 doesn't ahve a built-in tape drive. Instead, there's a cartridge area to the right of the display. Epson made several modules to go there, and there were 3rd party ones too. From Epson there werre at least a tape unit, a small thermal printer and a DVM module (I would _love_ to find that one). I havea 3rd party 512K RAMdisk in mine, which makes it quite a nice machine. > however, that in direct sunlight even the straight LCD of the Z88 was > struggling when getting warm. The display went decidedly black and > smudgy when the machine got too warm. FWIW, I think my brain would have shut down long before that... > As a few people have pointed out to date, the Z88 will take some beating > in reality! Kudos to Sir Sinclair... I had an M100 long before the Z88 came out, and love(d) it. When I got to use a Z88, I pretty much hated it. I found the M100 had a better keyboard, clearer dispaly and was much better documetned (the lack of custom ICs was a bonus too :-)). I guess it comes down to what you are used to :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri May 20 15:11:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 21:11:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD61162.3060304@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at May 19, 11 11:59:46 pm Message-ID: > The port wiring is not less of a standard than the 200LX, but I recall > there's a bug in the serial port hardware on the 95LX that prevents a > lot of software from working with it properly. (I was bummed at the > time that Telix wouldn't run on it.) It has been awhile, so I may be > misremembering this. I miust admit that I've never tried to use the HP95LX serial port other tahn from the built-in software. The termainal emualtor does all I really need (dumb terminal, raw upload/capture, kermit). It does other things too that I don't neeed :-) I wonder if the problem is partly due to the missing handshake lines. Perhaps all handshake inputs are assmed to be inactive, which might upset some prgrams. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Fri May 20 18:20:08 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 18:20:08 -0500 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> On Friday (05/20/2011 at 01:10PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > > (Honestly, the entire installation of RT-11 via the emulated, > oversized, TU58 would be: > INITIALIZE/BACKBLOCK DL0: ^^^^^^^^^ BADBLOCK typo? > COPY/SYSTEM SY:*.* DL0:*.* > COPY/BOOT:DL DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DL0: > BOOT DL0: > And that's it, you're in RT-11 SJ on your real RL01, SYSGEN it if you > wish to tailor your RT-11 install.) -- Chris Elmquist From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri May 20 19:12:24 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 20:12:24 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> >Chris Elmquist wrote: >As was mentioned, vtserver really does work pretty well... although it >is slow at 9600 baud. > > If you read the previous posts to this thread, it does not seem as if RT-11 (or any other OS) is available, as yet, to run VTSERVER, let alone any other program such as Kermit. Dough, can you let us know if you attempted my suggestion? Are you able to find an RL01 pack with RT-11 (or any other OS)? Do you have the ability to produce a simple standalone program to copy an image file to an RL01 which you can (PAINFULLY) enter via ODT? How many serial ports do you have? Do you have a blank RL01 pack to work with? Jerome Fine From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri May 20 12:10:54 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 20 May 2011 13:10:54 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: As an idea to get RT-11 onto your RL01; why not try using a TU58 emulator, with oversized tape images? There's a modified driver file out there - very easy to find too - that'll let you have RT-11 think the DECtape II tapes are the size of an RL02, which will let you boot the RT-11 V5.3 installation pack on the emulator. From there, just install RT-11 to the real RL01 as you would normally install RT-11. It's simple to setup (and if you don't want to fiddle around with disk images, asking will get you one from me or whoever else has done it this way), and all you need on the PDP-11 side of things is a second serial line. Also, it's relatively painless, as the RT-11 install isn't all that difficult. (Honestly, the entire installation of RT-11 via the emulated, oversized, TU58 would be: INITIALIZE/BACKBLOCK DL0: COPY/SYSTEM SY:*.* DL0:*.* COPY/BOOT:DL DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DL0: BOOT DL0: And that's it, you're in RT-11 SJ on your real RL01, SYSGEN it if you wish to tailor your RT-11 install.) Cheers. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat May 21 03:31:39 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:31:39 +0100 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/05/2011 01:12, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> As was mentioned, vtserver really does work pretty well... although it >> is slow at 9600 baud. >> > If you read the previous posts to this thread, > it does not seem as if RT-11 (or any other OS) > is available, as yet, to run VTSERVER, let > alone any other program such as Kermit. Not kermit, no, but the whole point of VTSERVER is to get an OS onto bare metal -- no OS required. It runs on a PC or Unix workstation and squirts a bootstrap to a PDP-11 console, and then can copy the rest of an OS. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chrise at pobox.com Sat May 21 05:45:59 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 05:45:59 -0500 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 09:31AM +0100), Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 21/05/2011 01:12, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >Chris Elmquist wrote: >> >>> As was mentioned, vtserver really does work pretty well... although it >>> is slow at 9600 baud. >>> >> If you read the previous posts to this thread, >> it does not seem as if RT-11 (or any other OS) >> is available, as yet, to run VTSERVER, let >> alone any other program such as Kermit. > > Not kermit, no, but the whole point of VTSERVER is to get an OS onto > bare metal -- no OS required. It runs on a PC or Unix workstation and > squirts a bootstrap to a PDP-11 console, and then can copy the rest of > an OS. That's right... The first step vtserver performs is to chat with ODT and "toggle in" a trivial serial port bootstap. It uses "L" and "D" to deposit that bootstrap at origin 1000 I believe and then executes it. Then it sends a "copy" program which understands how to talk to various RL, RX, etc devices and the VT device which is the virtual tape interface across the serial port to the list of files you have configured into vtserver. >From there, you can copy an image from VT to RL, which puts that image down to the RL sector by sector. You do have to be a little careful if the destination RL has bad blocks because this scheme does not account for those. It puts the image file to the destination media at exactly the same blocks as they are in the image file. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 08:57:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:57:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws Message-ID: This is OT, in that they're not going to be used in a classic computer, but people here tinker with other devies too... I am repariign an old French office telephone at the moment, It is missing a number of screws, whih looked to me M3. I therefore (incorrectly) assmed there'd be no problem replacing them. Alas they are not standard M3. After measuring up some of the exisitng screws, they appear to be 3mm in diamter, 0.6mm pitch (standard M3 is 0,5mm pitch). A look in a 1943 Machinery's Handbook suggests this is a French metric thread. Does anyone know of a source of such screws? If I can't get them, I will have to make them I guess (and I think I can get a suitable die which will make life a lot easier), but I'd prefer to buy them. Ideally slotted cheese head, but I would consider just about anything. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 08:47:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:47:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at May 20, 11 08:12:24 pm Message-ID: > If you read the previous posts to this thread, > it does not seem as if RT-11 (or any other OS) > is available, as yet, to run VTSERVER, let > alone any other program such as Kermit. I thought the whole point of VTSERVR was that it didn't need anything on the target PDP11. I've mever used it, but doesn't it enter a program on the PDP11 using console ODT (the host machine automatically enters the octal values and waits for the repsonse) and then uses that to pull the rest of the stuff over. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 21 11:09:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 09:09:32 -0700 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD7814C.11417.17FFBC@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 May 2011 at 14:57, Tony Duell wrote: > Does anyone know of a source of such screws? If I can't get them, I > will have to make them I guess (and I think I can get a suitable die > which will make life a lot easier), but I'd prefer to buy them. > Ideally slotted cheese head, but I would consider just about anything. It's odd--I have a tap and die for M3x0.6mm, but I've never seen such a screw. I'd probably give your local firearms repair shop (if there is such a thing in your area) or musical instrument repair shop a call. Guns and instruments use all sorts of oddball hardware. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 11:22:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 17:22:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <4DD7814C.11417.17FFBC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 21, 11 09:09:32 am Message-ID: > It's odd--I have a tap and die for M3x0.6mm, but I've never seen such Yes, I have seen some cheap tap and die sets in tool cataloges that include both M3*05. (the normal one) and M3*0.6. I have also found companies that sell the die (and taps) on their own, so presumably it's used for something. FWIW, M3.5 (used for HPIB jackscerews, and slso to fit wall switches and socket outlets to their moutning boxes over here) is normally a 0.6mm pitch, which makes it more difficult to search for the screws I want... > a screw. I'd probably give your local firearms repair shop (if there > is such a thing in your area) or musical instrument repair shop a Err, I am in the UK. We have draconian regualtions about firearms [1] which mean that such shops are very uncommon. In any case, spare parts for particualr items are (at least over here) a form of legalised robbery. As I need quite a few of the screws, I'd much rather get them from a company that deals in such things nad who will sell be a packet of 100 or whatever than as a spare part for soemthing at a rather high cost for one. [1] I've never held a gun, I have no desire to hold a gun. But I am also of the opinion that guns do not of themselves do any harm. Misuse of them does, of course. But that is not a reason to have the regulations we have. -tony From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat May 21 11:36:41 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 17:36:41 +0100 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: <4DD7814C.11417.17FFBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Ive been working as a clockmaker and occasionally made screws for a local black powder gun owner (all the right tickets) and am in the Uk a couple of points 5BA is very close at .59mm pitch but the dia is up a bit at 3.2mm (model engineer use this size) I do have a cnc so can cut arbitary threads, so if you dont find any ask. Dave Caroline From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 21 12:10:45 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 13:10:45 -0400 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <4DD7814C.11417.17FFBC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DD7814C.11417.17FFBC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It's odd--I have a tap and die for M3x0.6mm, but I've never seen such > a screw. It is odd for most of the world, but I think is somewhat "standard"for optical applications. They are available. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 12:11:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:11:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at May 21, 11 05:36:41 pm Message-ID: > > Ive been working as a clockmaker and occasionally made screws for a > local black powder gun owner (all the right tickets) and am in the Uk > > a couple of points 5BA is very close at .59mm pitch but the dia is up Yes, I spotted that one. Unfortunately, I want to keep the telephone as original as possible (I don;t want to drill out and re-tap the holes, if I did, I'd pick something more common than 5BA :-)) Nor do I want to replave the termianl strips with new ones if I can avoid it. > a bit at 3.2mm (model engineer use this size) > > I do have a cnc so can cut arbitary threads, so if you dont find any ask. I 'only' have a manual lathe, but needless to say I can set it for cutting a 0.6mm pitch htread if I want to. However on something this size (and where precision is not that critical), I think a die in a tailstock die holder would be a lot easier. And I am pretty sure I can get the die. Although, perhaps it doesn't fit with my normal cheacter, this time I'd rather buy the screws than amke them :-). If I cna;'t then I start machining metal... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 21 13:21:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 11:21:42 -0700 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: from "Dave Caroline" at May 21, 11 05:36:41 pm, Message-ID: <4DD7A046.8696.90FD9D@cclist.sydex.com> Okay, a quick web search shows that Microfasteners stocks M3x0.6mm socket-head capscrews. The same thread also seems to be used in Zebra barcode printers and is available as a replacement part (HW49152) at replacement-part prices. If it were just onesy-twosy, I suspect a shop specializing in old French bikes and motorcycles (e.g. Motobecane) might have something like that--maybe. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 12:26:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:26:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 21, 11 01:10:45 pm Message-ID: > > > It's odd--I have a tap and die for M3x0.6mm, but I've never seen such > > a screw. > > It is odd for most of the world, but I think is somewhat "standard"for > optical applications. They are available. Can you suggest a supplier (web site, etc), please -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 21 15:16:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:16:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <4DD7A046.8696.90FD9D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 21, 11 11:21:42 am Message-ID: > > Okay, a quick web search shows that Microfasteners stocks M3x0.6mm > socket-head capscrews. The same thread also seems to be used in Thanks, I will take a look... > Zebra barcode printers and is available as a replacement part > (HW49152) at replacement-part prices. Probaly no-tnaks :-) > > If it were just onesy-twosy, I suspect a shop specializing in old > French bikes and motorcycles (e.g. Motobecane) might have something > like that--maybe. I need 14 terminal screws for the barrier strips (say 6mm long), and 4 longer scres (say 10mm or 12mm long) to fix the baseplate on. I would be happy to buy many more though (if they were cheap enough...) -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 21 15:57:52 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 16:57:52 -0400 Subject: S-100 PCBs Message-ID: <20A0C9533EE14A99BF5F6061A93EE7AA@andrewdesktop> Hi! All the S-100 Console IO and S-100 4MB SRAM/FLASH PCBs are gone. If you were looking to get one please let me know and I will add you to the waiting list for the next batch. I still have a couple S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard interface, about ten S-100 EPROM/SRAM/EEPROM/FLASH, and a whole bunch of the S-100 Dual Serial IO, USB, and voice synthesis PCBs left. The good news is I am steadily plowing through the stack and getting these boards out to their builders. The next new boards will be the S-100 IDE V2 (improved dual IDE), S-100 8086 CPU, and S-100 6502 CPU. These will probably be done in the next few weeks. Please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM if you have any questions. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat May 21 16:34:54 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 23:34:54 +0200 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: <4DD7A046.8696.90FD9D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 21, 11 11:21:42 am Message-ID: <002401cc17fe$efe97bd0$cfbc7370$@xs4all.nl> A little OT trivia about French metric, until 1968 they used their own metric system for small screws < M6. I'm having the same problems getting M5 for my Citroen DS from 1967...when they changed to the normal metric system Citroen made a special technical note about it. -Rik From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 21 17:03:18 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:03:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp things that are not pdp Message-ID: Am I the only one who is mildly annoyed at all the various things with "pdp" in their model names that have nothing to do with older computers from DEC? Compaq and Panasonic seem to be the worst, naming memories, power supplies, and toner cartridges with pdp-blahblahblah. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrise at pobox.com Sat May 21 17:57:50 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 17:57:50 -0500 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my > forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with a command that would definitely not work as intended. > Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just > do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad > blocks on the real media. Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and then transfered to the target system? Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of rotating media/disk images and not tape images. What is the right way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? Thanks. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat May 21 20:31:29 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 21:31:29 -0400 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws Message-ID: > Alas they are not standard M3. After measuring up some of the exisitng > screws, they appear to be 3mm in diamter, 0.6mm pitch (standard M3 is > 0,5mm pitch). A look in a 1943 Machinery's Handbook suggests this is a > French metric thread. Maybe wrong side of the pond but: Is it possible that they are 5-40 thread? (3.1mm major diameter, 0.635mm pitch). 5-40 is still common today on barrier strips and I know was even more common on US phone and telecom equipment from 60, 70 years ago. I would not be surprised if barrier strip screw sizes had crossed the pond 70 years ago. Reminds me of the Russian hi-tech chilled water cooling unit we had delivered in the 80's, we thought from the drawing it had some funky metric thread and we called around to all the US metric specialty houses without luck, before we figured out that it was just standard garden hose thread :-) ! Tim. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat May 21 20:50:14 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 18:50:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: seeking pdp 11/70 front panel Message-ID: Once again, I'm checking around to see if anyone has a pdp 11/70 front panel with bezel they'd be willing to sell or trade. I have some IMSAI front panels, an Altair or two, and several complete S100 systems to offer in trade. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 21 21:21:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:21:54 -0400 Subject: pdp things that are not pdp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD87342.1010001@neurotica.com> On 5/21/11 6:03 PM, David Griffith wrote: > Am I the only one who is mildly annoyed at all the various things with > "pdp" in their model names that have nothing to do with older computers > from DEC? Compaq and Panasonic seem to be the worst, naming memories, > power supplies, and toner cartridges with pdp-blahblahblah. Panasonic toner cartridges, "Red Dot" gun sights, arrow heads, Sony and Pioneer plasma display TVs, cymbal stands and snare drums...Oh yes, my usual "find me PDP-8/PDP-11 stuff" eBay search string is quite complex. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun May 22 00:49:08 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 22:49:08 -0700 Subject: pdp things that are not pdp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 3:03 PM -0700 5/21/11, David Griffith wrote: >Am I the only one who is mildly annoyed at all the various things >with "pdp" in their model names that have nothing to do with older >computers from DEC? Compaq and Panasonic seem to be the worst, >naming memories, power supplies, and toner cartridges with >pdp-blahblahblah. While I rarely do searches on PDP-10 or PDP-11 stuff anymore it irritates the **** out of me when I do! :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jonas at otter.se Sat May 21 13:19:25 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 20:19:25 +0200 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD8022D.1050706@otter.se> On 2011-05-21 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > I am repariign an old French office telephone at the moment, It is > missing a number of screws, whih looked to me M3. I therefore > (incorrectly) assmed there'd be no problem replacing them. > > Alas they are not standard M3. After measuring up some of the exisitng > screws, they appear to be 3mm in diamter, 0.6mm pitch (standard M3 is > 0,5mm pitch). A look in a 1943 Machinery's Handbook suggests this is a > French metric thread. It is a French telephone after all ;-) Some quick Googling on French sites tells me that this is an old standard ("S.I.") which does not seem to be used any longer, not even in France. This is a table of those threads:http://www.cijoint.fr/cj200809/cijkUPkub5.jpg They do not seem to be easily obtainable, not even in France. You will probably have to make them yourself, unfortunately. /Jonas From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat May 21 14:18:30 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 15:18:30 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad blocks on the real media. Cheers. On 20 May 2011 19:20, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Friday (05/20/2011 at 01:10PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> (Honestly, the entire installation of RT-11 via the emulated, >> oversized, TU58 would be: >> INITIALIZE/BACKBLOCK DL0: > ? ? ? ? ? ? ^^^^^^^^^ > ? ? ? ? ? ? BADBLOCK > > typo? > >> COPY/SYSTEM SY:*.* DL0:*.* >> COPY/BOOT:DL DL0:RT11SJ.SYS DL0: >> BOOT DL0: >> And that's it, you're in RT-11 SJ on your real RL01, SYSGEN it if you >> wish to tailor your RT-11 install.) > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun May 22 04:15:52 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 02:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? Message-ID: I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. Have your eyebleach at the ready. http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pspan at amerytel.net Sun May 22 07:34:59 2011 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 07:34:59 -0500 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment Message-ID: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> Hello all, I have several LA 120's with and w/o keyboards. All equipment has been in storage for many years. I am tearing apart for scrap. If anyone wants parts and is willing to pay shipping from Wisconsin and a small stipend for the parts and packaging, email me privately. Phil PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" floppy drives and media. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 22 07:46:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 08:46:37 -0400 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <133C0FEF-5F8F-4CDE-BD28-A2001E2155F0@neurotica.com> My eyes, my eyes!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL On May 22, 2011, at 5:15 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. Have your eyebleach at the ready. > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Sun May 22 07:55:17 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 07:55:17 -0500 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> Message-ID: <201105221256.p4MCu0DW048694@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:34 AM 5/22/2011, Phil wrote: >Hello all, > >I have several LA 120's with and w/o keyboards. All equipment has been in storage for many years. I am tearing apart for scrap. If anyone wants parts and is willing to pay shipping from Wisconsin and a small stipend for the parts and packaging, email me privately.\ Based on his ISP, it looks like Phil would be in the Amery, WI area, about 70 miles NE of St. Paul, MN. - John From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun May 22 08:06:54 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 09:06:54 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). > I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with > a command that would definitely not work as intended. > >> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >> blocks on the real media. > Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as > RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and > then transfered to the target system? > > Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of > rotating media/disk images and not tape images. What is the right > way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? > > Thanks. > > Chris > Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools and source files to build a tape image. NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device on the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just slower. That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very different from TU58. So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02 save for the DD driver is used instead. I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing and many of them. Allison From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 09:57:32 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 15:57:32 +0100 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> Message-ID: <002c01cc1890$95620cd0$c0262670$@ntlworld.com> I am keen to get hold of a VT100, but shipping to the UK is likely to be expensive, how much would you want for a VT100? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Phil > Sent: 22 May 2011 13:35 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment > > Hello all, > > I have several LA 120's with and w/o keyboards. All equipment has been in > storage for many years. I am tearing apart for scrap. If anyone wants parts and > is willing to pay shipping from Wisconsin and a small stipend for the parts and > packaging, email me privately. > > Phil > > PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" > floppy drives and media. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 22 11:58:35 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 11:58:35 -0500 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: <133C0FEF-5F8F-4CDE-BD28-A2001E2155F0@neurotica.com> References: <133C0FEF-5F8F-4CDE-BD28-A2001E2155F0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: lol On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 7:46 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > My eyes, my eyes!! > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > On May 22, 2011, at 5:15 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > > > > I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled > across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. Have > your eyebleach at the ready. > > > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > > > > > > -- > > David Griffith > > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > > A: Top-posting. > > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From rogpugh at mac.com Sun May 22 12:08:47 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:08:47 +0100 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD9431F.5000903@mac.com> On 05/22/2011 10:15, David Griffith wrote: > I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled > across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. > Have your eyebleach at the ready. > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html OK... own up.. Who has a PDP in their bedroom??????? LOL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 22 12:11:13 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:11:13 +0200 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110522191113.0b57d8a1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 18 May 2011 12:23:23 +0100 Mark Wickens wrote: > I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could take > this year that would be fun to explore but also practical enough to use > day to day to write text for the website. IBM WorkPad z50 Not that practical for text editing, but fun to explore: HP48 -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 22 12:26:40 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:26:40 +0200 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 May 2011 02:15:52 -0700 (PDT) David Griffith wrote: > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html There are also VAX, Sinclair QL, ... versions on ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ BTW: I met "endergone Zwiebelt?te" in person. I don't think that there was any alcohol or other drugs involved. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 22 12:49:49 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:49:49 -0500 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: <4DD9431F.5000903@mac.com> References: <4DD9431F.5000903@mac.com> Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > On 05/22/2011 10:15, David Griffith wrote: > >> I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled >> across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. Have >> your eyebleach at the ready. >> >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html >> > > OK... own up.. Who has a PDP in their bedroom??????? LOL > i do From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 12:07:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:07:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <4DD8022D.1050706@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at May 21, 11 08:19:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 2011-05-21 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I am repariign an old French office telephone at the moment, It is > > > missing a number of screws, whih looked to me M3. I therefore > > (incorrectly) assmed there'd be no problem replacing them. > > > > Alas they are not standard M3. After measuring up some of the exisitng > > screws, they appear to be 3mm in diamter, 0.6mm pitch (standard M3 is > > 0,5mm pitch). A look in a 1943 Machinery's Handbook suggests this is a > > French metric thread. > > It is a French telephone after all ;-) > I am not sure if you're implying that that's why a 'French Metirc Thread' is likely to be correct or if you're saying 'It's French, it's bound to be odd'. Having maintained Citroen car for 13 years, I came to the conclusion that French engineering is often strange, but equally it's often very good (and ingenious). This telephone is a case in point. When I started work on it, I noticed that there appeared to be no anti-sidetone indcution coil in the unit, and that only 2 wires of the handset cable went wanywhere inside the base of the tleephone. After some more investigation I realised that the earpiece insert has 3 connections, and aftrer carefully dismantling it (I machined off the rolled-over lip that held the front cover on, then removed that and the diaphragm -- the whole thign is held together by the screw-on plastic cap when the handset is assembled), I discovered that the earpiece sinding is tapped, and that thaere's a resistor inside the earpiece too. This forms an anti-sidetone circuit from the looks of things. As I dad, French engineering is odd, but good :-) > Some quick Googling on French sites tells me that this is an old > standard ("S.I.") which does not seem to be used any longer, not even in That I can well believe. The only place I could find mention of it was in an old Machineries Handbook. None of my other sets of workshop tables cover it. > France. What makes this a little odd is that the tap and die for this thread are not difficult to find. If nobody uses it any more, why are the cutting tools still made... > They do not seem to be easily obtainable, not even in France. You will > probably have to make them yourself, unfortunately. Yes, I am coming round to that view :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 12:10:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:10:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <002401cc17fe$efe97bd0$cfbc7370$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at May 21, 11 11:34:54 pm Message-ID: > > A little OT trivia about French metric, until 1968 they used their own > metric system for small screws < M6. Right... That explains a lot. > I'm having the same problems getting M5 for my Citroen DS from 1967...when I've not looked, can you still get the tap and die in the right pitch? If not, M5 is large enough in diameter to be not too difficult to screwcut on a lathe. I guess that would be OK if you need 1 or 2 of them, less fun if you need 100. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 12:22:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:22:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: pdp things that are not pdp In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 21, 11 03:03:18 pm Message-ID: > "pdp" in their model names that have nothing to do with older computers > from DEC? Compaq and Panasonic seem to be the worst, naming memories, > power supplies, and toner cartridges with pdp-blahblahblah. HP is worse :-) ... Firstly you gets hits for 'horsepower'. But even amongst things made by Hewlett Packard, it's very difficult to only get 'classics'. We all know that hte HP9100A nad HP9100B are early calcualtors. The HP9100C is a scanner I think, and much more modern. And searching for partial model numbers (say 5940*) will get hits for printer ink cartridges, battereis for modern (well, more modern than I am interested in) laptops, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 12:30:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at May 21, 11 09:31:29 pm Message-ID: > > > Alas they are not standard M3. After measuring up some of the exisitng=20 > > screws, they appear to be 3mm in diamter, 0.6mm pitch (standard M3 is=20 > > 0,5mm pitch). A look in a 1943 Machinery's Handbook suggests this is a=20 > > French metric thread. > > Maybe wrong side of the pond but: Is it possible that they are 5-40 thread?= > (3.1mm major diameter, 0.635mm pitch). I doubt it for several reasons : Small UNC screws are very uncommon in Europe, other than in imprted American stuff (and getting replacement screws for such things in the UK is an entertainment, I ended up buying a laod from Digikey...). This telephone uses the same thread not just for the barier strip terminals, but also for just about every other screw in the unit (to hold the switches ot the chassis, the chassis to the cover, the various parts of the case together, etc). I think it's very unlikely that that French would use an obscure UNC thread (and the odd numbered ones are much less common than the even numbered ones). I measured the overall diamaeter of the screw with a good micrometer. Alas it's an imperial micrometer, not a metric one, but on conversion, I got a diamaeter of a smidgen under 3mm (I think the conversion was 2.97mm, but it's not as accurate as that). No way is it 3.1mm (or 3.2mm, suggesting 5BA). As for the pitch, I used those pitch guages which conssit of little strips of metal with accurately cut teeth in one edge. Alas my metric set doesn't include 0.6mm ( which is odd, since it's common for M3.5 screws), hut the imperial one that fits is 42tpi. 42tpi is about 0.605mm pitch. I could beleive 0.6mm (it's not that accurate after all). The 40tpi imperial gauge doesn't fit at all. Given that this telephone is French and somewhat old, I suspect an old French thread standard is a very likely candidate... > 5-40 is still common today on barrier strips and I know was even more commo= > n on US phone and telecom equipment from 60, 70 years ago. > > I would not be surprised if barrier strip screw sizes had crossed the pond = > 70 years ago. Reminds me of the Russian hi-tech chilled water cooling unit = Over here, the common barrier strip screws (and there are others) are 6-32 UNC, M3.5 and 4BA. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun May 22 12:32:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:32:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at May 22, 11 02:15:52 am Message-ID: > > > I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled > across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. > Have your eyebleach at the ready. > > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html It looks like an 11/34 with a couple of RL drives. Get the naked man out of the way so I can be sure :-) -tony From IanK at vulcan.com Sun May 22 13:26:46 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 11:26:46 -0700 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9431F.5000903@mac.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 10:50 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: How much do you like your PDP11? > > On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Roger Pugh wrote: > > > On 05/22/2011 10:15, David Griffith wrote: > > > >> I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled > >> across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. > Have > >> your eyebleach at the ready. > >> > >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > >> > > > > OK... own up.. Who has a PDP in their bedroom??????? LOL > > > i do I probably would (just because I could use the space!) but the Spousal Unit would object strenuously. She treats my toys with amused tolerance, as long as they stay in their place.... -- Ian From IanK at vulcan.com Sun May 22 13:29:20 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 11:29:20 -0700 Subject: pdp things that are not pdp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 3:03 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: pdp things that are not pdp > > > Am I the only one who is mildly annoyed at all the various things with > "pdp" in their model names that have nothing to do with older computers > from DEC? Compaq and Panasonic seem to be the worst, naming memories, > power supplies, and toner cartridges with pdp-blahblahblah. > I'd love to hear the natter from the other side of this: "I'm on eBay looking for a Plasma Display Panel and all these crufty old computers show up in my search results! What's that about?" -- Ian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun May 22 13:46:22 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 20:46:22 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? Message-ID: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Hi. In a recent dumpster diving session I rescued three "IMS B012" boards. These are "VMEbus Master Motherboards" with 16 slots for TRAMs (TRAnsputer Modules). The three B012 are equiped with a total of 29 TRAMs. Each TRAM consists of one T800 Transputer chip and 1 MB of DRAM. In addition there is a single B420 Vector Processing TRAM. So, what to do with this stuff? There is a lot of documentation out there on the net. This covers topics like theory of operation, programming languages, libraries, ... but no "how to get started with real hardware" guide. I have a VME chassis to put them in. Currently this chassis houses a MVME68k machine running NetBSD. But as I understand the documentation on the B012 it uses the VME form factor, but has no real VMEbus interface. So my hope to use the MVME68k (or one of my Sun3 / Sun4 VME machines) as a host is lost. It would have been cool to add the transputers as a co-processor to my Sun 4/110 or 4/610... If I can't get any use out of the Transputers I would like to trade them for some more ordinary QBus stuff for my PDP-11. I need a M8061 RLV12 RL01/RL02 disk controller, QBus memory (at least 1 MB) and perhaps a M7559 TQK70 TK70 controller. Alternatively a MVME160x PPC VME CPU board would be nice. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 22 13:46:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 14:46:48 -0400 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <002c01cc1890$95620cd0$c0262670$@ntlworld.com> References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> <002c01cc1890$95620cd0$c0262670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I am keen to get hold of a VT100, but shipping to the UK is likely to be > expensive, how much would you want for a VT100? The chances of a VT100 making it to the UK safely are very small. They are notoriously hard to ship, more so than most CRT devices. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 22 13:51:17 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 12:51:17 -0600 Subject: pdp things that are not pdp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD95B25.60609@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/22/2011 12:29 PM, Ian King wrote: > > I'd love to hear the natter from the other side of this: "I'm on eBay > looking for a Plasma Display Panel and all these crufty old computers > show up in my search results! What's that about?" -- Ian > You forgot all the stupid *NEW* TV's too. When I hear plasma, I still think of the terminals. Ben. From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 22 14:36:10 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 14:36:10 -0500 Subject: seeking pdp 11/70 front panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Dave, I saw a dark blue/ light blue and a purple/ pink or whatever you want to call it, last week while digging for something else. I have a RDC somewhere also. Not sure where the bezels are. Thanks, Paul On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 8:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Once again, I'm checking around to see if anyone has a pdp 11/70 front panel > with bezel they'd be willing to sell or trade. ?I have some IMSAI front > panels, an Altair or two, and several complete S100 systems to offer in > trade. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 22 15:44:21 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 21:44:21 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation Message-ID: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU (I am being ably assisted by a member of the list, so don't worry). As this is for occasional use only I can't justify spending a lot of money. From previous postings on the list I think I need a minimum spec of dual trace and 20MHz bandwidth. Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it would be better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new one. Perhaps someone in the UK on this list has one they want to sell? Regards Rob From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun May 22 17:19:36 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:19:36 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> On 05/22/2011 04:50 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it. > > But yes, an RT-11 build for the TU58 uses the DD.SYS driver. Though, > building it for an oversize TU58 image is the same, just with the > modified driver replacing the "plain, vanilla" DD.SYS. (You can get > the modified driver onto a disk image on your PC via PUTR. You can > even skip using an emulator altogether and just build images in PUTR.) > > I've used PDP-11 sims for a while, mostly because I've only *JUST* got > my hands on a real PDP-11 (11/23 w/256KB RAM, DLVJ-1, and RQDX3); > though I'm relying on the oversized TU58 images as my disk media as I > have no real disks unfortunately. (So the RL02 sized TU58 images, > though slightly slow, provide me an actual usable RT-11 environment > (I've DECUS C and the RT-11 BASIC on my system "tape" while the second > TU58 is my data "tape").) I'm also negotiating for a VT-103 as well. > My collection includes a few real TU58s working. My fun 11 that is the most portable one is: BA11VA 11/23 512K ram DLV11J MRV21 (holds a boot for tu58) I run RT11XM on it and the first boot cycle load the base image and then inits VM: and then copies the system to it and boots VM. After that the system is fairly useful as most mundane tasks do not hit the tape. It ends up with about half of the 512K as virtual disk and XM running in the other half. I do this on the larger systems running RX02 or RX50 with 2mb ram installed and that really is nicer. FYI: for those that have Qbus 11s disks are possible, you need a RQDX1/2/3, cables and the module from the BA123 (or BA23) to break the 50wide cable to MFM hard disk AND 34pin floppy (RX50, RX33). If you can't find a RX50 or RX33 then hunt down anything 5.25" 80track that can be jumpered to work like a TEAC FD55GFR. the preferred distribution board is the one out of the BA123 as it supports more of a given media and different possible media. the bridge baord requires power but if need be it can be hand wired if the backplane lacks room. Generally RQDX controllers are easy to find but most people bemoan the lack of MFM hard disks. But for a floppy only system it can be setup for two RX50 or two RX33s or two RX23s. RT11 supports MSCP controllers of all versions. The preferred controller is the later versions of RQDX3 as the late firmware will also run 3.5" 800k (RX23/22) which uses bacially PC compatable 3.5" media and it also supports the RX33 drive at both 400K side and 1.6MB side. Even without the late firmware Most dial denity 3.5" drives are supportable at the lower density of 400K single sided (same as RX50). For that you that do this will have to use a PC to format media or a mVAX2000 or for those that have it X11 diagnostics. I've taken a 11/23 (m8186), 4 M8059 (1MB of ram total), MRV21 rom card, DRV11J M8043, RQDX3/distribution into a 12 slot dual wide cage and with a DEC BA11 supply (RTC, Bevent-L, and reset support via standard 3 switch panel) into a finished plywood box with two RX33s as a lugable and useful system. The terminal is laptop with minicom or a real VT320 It's light and runs RTXM nicely. Before any one gets upset with that apparent abomination it's built with excess spares for the other six Qbus 11s from LSI11 through 11/73. No Qbus 11s were executed to build it. Of all my Qbus-11s it's the handiest as by PDP11 standards its very portable. Allison > > > On 22 May 2011 09:06, allison wrote: >> On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >>> wrote: >>>> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >>>> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). >>> I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with >>> a command that would definitely not work as intended. >>> >>>> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >>>> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >>>> blocks on the real media. >>> Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as >>> RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and >>> then transfered to the target system? >>> >>> Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of >>> rotating media/disk images and not tape images. What is the right >>> way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? >>> >>> Thanks. >>> >>> Chris >>> >> Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools >> and source files to build a tape image. >> >> NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device on >> the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just slower. >> That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very >> different from TU58. >> >> So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02 >> save for the DD driver is used instead. >> >> I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing >> and many of them. >> >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> From eric at brouhaha.com Sun May 22 18:38:33 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:38:33 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DD99E79.60708@brouhaha.com> Rob Jarratt wrote: > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU (I am If you'll settle for a used analog scope, you might look for a Tektronix 465, which was a very good two-channel 100 MHz scope. I've never been happy with any of the cheap digital scopes. The good digital scopes tend to be rather pricey, even used. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 22 20:34:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 18:34:02 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DD99E79.60708@brouhaha.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, <4DD99E79.60708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DD9571A.26847.2033D6D@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 May 2011 at 16:38, Eric Smith wrote: > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 > PSU > (I am > > If you'll settle for a used analog scope, you might look for a > Tektronix 465, which was a very good two-channel 100 MHz scope. > > I've never been happy with any of the cheap digital scopes. The good > digital scopes tend to be rather pricey, even used. The 465 (A/B) is a great reliable scope. But if you're used to using DSO's, it can take some time getting used to, particularly on low rep- rate traces. And storage-tube scopes (such as the 5441) require quite a bit of getting used to also. I've seen some early used DSOs on eBay (usually without probes), for under $200, but I don't know how well they work. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 22 20:38:33 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 21:38:33 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> >Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >As an idea to get RT-11 onto your RL01; why not try using a TU58 >emulator, with oversized tape images? There's a modified driver file >out there - very easy to find too - that'll let you have RT-11 think >the DECtape II tapes are the size of an RL02, which will let you boot >the RT-11 V5.3 installation pack on the emulator. From there, just >install RT-11 to the real RL01 as you would normally install RT-11. > >It's simple to setup (and if you don't want to fiddle around with disk >images, asking will get you one from me or whoever else has done it >this way), and all you need on the PDP-11 side of things is a second >serial line. Also, it's relatively painless, as the RT-11 install >isn't all that difficult. > > I understand what is required on the PDP-11 side of a TU-58 emulator since I have a real DEC dual external TU-58 drive that I am able to use with real TU-58 tapes. What I am curious about is the specific hardware required for the TU-58 emulator? I assume that a serial port is required? Is the TU-58 emulator able to run under Windows XP or must DOS be used? Or perhaps an OS in-between such as Windows 98 SE? In addition, my TU-58 drive uses a standard 10 pin cable with a standard 10 pin female connector on both ends - the CPU end plugs directly into the DLV11-J port. What does the end of the 10 pin cable look like at the TU-58 emulator? I used to have a site that I could download to obtain the software for the TU-58 emulator. Can you please provide a link address? Jerome Fine From keithvz at verizon.net Sun May 22 20:48:00 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 21:48:00 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DD9BCD0.6010307@verizon.net> On 5/22/2011 4:44 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it would be > better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new one. Perhaps > someone in the UK on this list has one they want to sell? > > Regards > > Rob Rob, Rigol (whose low end scopes are rebadged by Agilent) 'scopes have gotten pretty good reviews. They've been torn apart and reviewed by David Jones of EEVBLOG, and he quite likes them. MCS Test Equipment in Conwy would seem to be your local distributor. http://www.mcs-testequipment.com/search-results-sales-rigol.asp?man=132 The regular north american site for them is http://www.rigolna.com/ From what I've read, the 100mhz hardware is in the 50mhz model, and it's only a serial port hack away from being software-converted. Of course you can brick your new scope, so be careful if this is what you intend to do. I have my eyes on the new Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 X-series 'scopes(designed in-house, not resold from Rigol), but until I have the budget to afford them, it will be just my eyes. :) They start around US $1200, but can quickly get to $2500 for a 'decent' model. HTH Keith From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 22 21:03:53 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:03:53 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DD9C089.5050502@compsys.to> >Chris Elmquist wrote: >Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as >RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and >then transfered to the target system? > I believe that Allison already answered this question. However, since VTSERVER was also specified as part of the answer, there may have been some confusion. By itself, the TU-58 is a block addressable device that is identical to every hard drive EXCEPT: (a) The speed is very slow since the data is transmitted over a serial line (b) The capacity is very small - only 512 blocks. When used as a DD: device, the TU-58 is presented to the RT-11 operating system not as a serial tape device, but as a disk drive with a file directory. There is absolutely no conversion needed to convert an RL02 image to a TU-58 image other than factors associated with the available number of blocks on a TU-58 and an RL02 (which has 20450 user available blocks). Exactly how this works when a TU-58 emulator is used, I am unable to say since I have never used the emulator nor do I understand the exact details. However, if a file of 20450 blocks is set up on the TU-58 emulator and the changes applied to DD.SYS are made, then RT-11 should have no difficulty in setting up a bootable TU-58 emulation. By the way, what are the changes necessary to DD.SYS to be able to use 20450 blocks and why are they needed? I suspect that they allow DUP.SAV to "INIT DD:" at the size of the TU-58 emulation? Am I correct? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 22 21:19:58 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:19:58 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DD9C44E.4000104@compsys.to> >Allison wrote: > The preferred controller is the later versions of RQDX3 as the late > firmware will also > run 3.5" 800k (RX23/22) which uses bacially PC compatable 3.5" media > and it also > supports the RX33 drive at both 400K side and 1.6MB side. Even > without the late > firmware Most dial denity 3.5" drives are supportable at the lower > density of 400K > single sided (same as RX50). For that you that do this will have to > use a PC to > format media or a mVAX2000 or for those that have it X11 diagnostics. I have an RQDX3 on a PDP-11/73 with dual RX33 drives. The only capacity I have ever seen is 2400 blocks or 1.2 MB using PC HD 5 1/4" diskettes, probably at 15 sectors per track. I did notice that for the VERY FIRST TIME, DEC supported the RX33 to be LLF (Low Level Formatted) directly by RT-11 using the "FORMAT DU0:" command. Could you please clarify the capacity of the RX33 drives and how it is possible to have 400K and 1.6 MB capacities? I know that your information is almost always correct, so I am wondering what I am missing? Or have you confused the 5 1/4" RX33 capacity with the capacity of the 3.5" RX23 and RX22 media? Jerome Fine From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun May 22 22:56:32 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:56:32 -0500 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> Message-ID: I need a tractor feed assembly for a LA100, are the ones on the 120 compatible? On May 22, 2011, at 7:34 AM, "Phil" wrote: > Hello all, > > I have several LA 120's with and w/o keyboards. All equipment has been in storage for many years. I am tearing apart for scrap. If anyone wants parts and is willing to pay shipping from Wisconsin and a small stipend for the parts and packaging, email me privately. > > Phil > > PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" floppy drives and media. From useddec at gmail.com Sun May 22 23:47:35 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 23:47:35 -0500 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> Message-ID: The LA120 are part of the unit, and the LA100 are removable. If you don't find one in a few weeks, let me know and I'll try looking. Paul On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 10:56 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > I need a tractor feed assembly for a LA100, are the ones on the 120 compatible? > > On May 22, 2011, at 7:34 AM, "Phil" wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> I have several LA 120's with and w/o keyboards. All equipment has been in storage for many years. I am tearing apart for scrap. If anyone wants parts and is willing to pay shipping from Wisconsin and a small stipend for the parts and packaging, email me privately. >> >> Phil >> >> PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" floppy drives and media. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 23 00:28:33 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:28:33 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU (I am > being ably assisted by a member of the list, so don't worry). As this is for > occasional use only I can't justify spending a lot of money. From previous > postings on the list I think I need a minimum spec of dual trace and 20MHz > bandwidth. > > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it would be > better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new one. Perhaps > someone in the UK on this list has one they want to sell? > > Regards > > Rob > Hi You haven't stated what your intending to use it for. DSO are fine but there are good reasons to go with an analog scope ( I prefer these ). Delayed sweep and a minum of 2 channels is a must for most clasic computer work. Dwight From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 22 15:37:43 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:37:43 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: It's fine, though sorry for being a bit snippy, my neighbour was being his wonderful self and got me all sour. The way I convert non-TU58 images, to the RL02 sized image is: 1. Mount the media to be transferred onto the correct SIMH device. 2. Mount an RT-11 boot disk somewhere. 3. Mount a new RL02 image. 4. Boot RT-11. 5. Initialize the new RL02 (INITIALIZE/BADBLOCK). 6. Copy the files to the RL02. 7. Exit SIMH. 8. Mount the new RL02 to one of the emulated TU58 drives. (With either an RT-11 that's been modified to work with RL02 sized images booting from an RL02 sized image on emulated DD0:, or your real RT-11 built with the modified driver copying from the emulated - RL02 sized - image to whatever disk you wish.) To get a modified TU58 driver to RT-11 I use PUTR (find here: http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/ ) on my PC on the RT-11 install disk, to replace a driver with the modified one. You can get a modified driver ready to read RL02 sized TU58 images here: http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm (Scroll down to a hyperlink that reads "RT-11 DW.sys", it replaces the RT-11 DW.SYS driver, which I believe was only used on the desktop PRO-whatever systems.) The emulator I use is this one: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/ I believe the fortuitous coincidence that SIMH RL02 images and TU58 images are readable in the emulator are because the TU58 is a block addressable tape. In other words, it's a tape that acts like an inordinately slow disk (just like TU55/TU56 DECtape... but not as interesting to watch). Cheers. On 21 May 2011 18:57, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). > > I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with > a command that would definitely not work as intended. > >> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >> blocks on the real media. > > Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as > RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and > then transfered to the target system? > > Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of > rotating media/disk images and not tape images. ?What is the right > way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? > > Thanks. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > > From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun May 22 15:40:46 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 21:40:46 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment Message-ID: <01O1LG6FJZLU001TTL@beyondthepale.ie> > >PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" >floppy drives and media. > I'm looking for a flyback transformer for a VT220 - I'm in Dublin, Ireland. As far as I can tell, there are at least two different types but hopefully only the mounting arrangements differ. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 22 15:50:28 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:50:28 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> Message-ID: Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it. But yes, an RT-11 build for the TU58 uses the DD.SYS driver. Though, building it for an oversize TU58 image is the same, just with the modified driver replacing the "plain, vanilla" DD.SYS. (You can get the modified driver onto a disk image on your PC via PUTR. You can even skip using an emulator altogether and just build images in PUTR.) I've used PDP-11 sims for a while, mostly because I've only *JUST* got my hands on a real PDP-11 (11/23 w/256KB RAM, DLVJ-1, and RQDX3); though I'm relying on the oversized TU58 images as my disk media as I have no real disks unfortunately. (So the RL02 sized TU58 images, though slightly slow, provide me an actual usable RT-11 environment (I've DECUS C and the RT-11 BASIC on my system "tape" while the second TU58 is my data "tape").) I'm also negotiating for a VT-103 as well. On 22 May 2011 09:06, allison wrote: > On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> >> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >> wrote: >>> >>> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >>> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). >> >> I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with >> a command that would definitely not work as intended. >> >>> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >>> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >>> blocks on the real media. >> >> Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as >> RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and >> then transfered to the target system? >> >> Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of >> rotating media/disk images and not tape images. ?What is the right >> way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? >> >> Thanks. >> >> Chris >> > Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools > and source files to build a tape image. > > NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device on > the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just slower. > That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very > different from TU58. > > So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02 > save for the DD driver is used instead. > > I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing > and many of them. > > > > Allison > > > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 22 15:54:29 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:54:29 -0400 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> Message-ID: I might be interested in a VT-100 as well. Though, shipping to Canada might be a bit expensive (and if the company that does the shipping is Schei?e the VT-100 will be in several non-functional pieces). But in general, how much would you want for a VT-100? On 22 May 2011 08:34, Phil wrote: > Hello all, > > I have several LA 120's with and w/o keyboards. All equipment has been in > storage for many years. I am tearing apart for scrap. If anyone wants parts > and is willing to pay shipping from Wisconsin and a small stipend for the > parts and packaging, email me privately. > > Phil > > PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" > floppy drives and media. > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 22 15:57:06 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 16:57:06 -0400 Subject: seeking pdp 11/70 front panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sounds as though you have two 11/70 (or similar) panels? I don't mind if it is lacking the bezel, but if you have one spare, I'd be more then willing to buy it off of you. (Don't have anything worth trading, unless you're interested in about twenty, somewhat crap, PCI video cards.) Cheers. On 22 May 2011 15:36, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Dave, > > I saw a dark blue/ light blue and a purple/ pink or whatever you want > to call it, last week while digging for something else. I have a RDC > somewhere also. Not sure where the bezels are. > > Thanks, Paul > > On Sat, May 21, 2011 at 8:50 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Once again, I'm checking around to see if anyone has a pdp 11/70 front panel >> with bezel they'd be willing to sell or trade. ?I have some IMSAI front >> panels, an Altair or two, and several complete S100 systems to offer in >> trade. >> >> -- >> David Griffith >> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu >> >> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. >> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? >> A: Top-posting. >> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? >> > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun May 22 19:21:21 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 20:21:21 -0400 Subject: PR1ME Computer SE50M Message-ID: > From:?Dennis Boone > Date:?Tue, 17 May 2011 13:10:04 -0400 > The CPU boards are in the upper backplane, the two or three boards > connected via top-hats. ?They'll have a label on the back edge giving > the board model number. ?I can probably look them up from that. > > The numbers will be in one of two formats: 9999-999, or TLA10999-999. Upper CPU Board, P/N 6282-401 Lower CPU Board, P/N 6281-401 Upper Two Memory Boards, P/N 12512-E8 Middle Two Memory Boards, P/N 7615-902 Lower Two Memory Boards, P/N 230-010-904 I/O Boards 2034-901 TLA10019-0012 2302-004 4005-901 2384-004 2301-901 In a box 6105-402 Pictures and part numbers of the boards are at: https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/prime-computer-se50m It would be nice if you could also identify the memory and I/O boards. Thanks for your help. There doesn't seem to be much hardware documentation available for Prime systems. -- Michael Thompson From pinball at telus.net Sun May 22 21:42:50 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 19:42:50 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DD99E79.60708@brouhaha.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <4DD99E79.60708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DD9C9AA.7050002@telus.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Rob Jarratt wrote: > > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU > (I am > > If you'll settle for a used analog scope, you might look for a > Tektronix 465, which was a very good two-channel 100 MHz scope. > > I've never been happy with any of the cheap digital scopes. The good > digital scopes tend to be rather pricey, even used. > > > You can also get the digital-to-analog scope storage converters from eBay or other sources. I have one at the shop that I bought a few years ago - think it was made by B&K - and it interfaces between the signal and the scope and will store up to several seconds or more depending on the clock rate (AIR). I can check on Tuesday if you can't find a reference to the device before then... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 23 01:03:46 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 08:03:46 +0200 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: <01O1LG6FJZLU001TTL@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O1LG6FJZLU001TTL@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <20110523060346.GA8600@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 09:40:46PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > >PS Later on VT 100's and 220's will be going. Other equipment such as 8" > >floppy drives and media. > > > > I'm looking for a flyback transformer for a VT220 - I'm in Dublin, Ireland. > > As far as I can tell, there are at least two different types but hopefully > only the mounting arrangements differ. I did some research on this a while back. In one model the flyback is an easy field replace unit but in the other model the flyback is soldered to the power board. /P From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon May 23 01:04:40 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 07:04:40 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Choices, choices...I would be straight on ebay. I dont recommend analog storage, they tentd to be difficult to keep working. Some of the old Tektronix just work, although the power supply capacitors may fail as in any device. Tektronix 7000 Y amp switches can be delicate when old and the mainframe socket for the plug-in. Telequipment used to be plentiful and cheap. Some of the Advance (Gould) can be cheap and cheerful. Do you want collectors age scope too. to go with the age of the computer, old Tek 500 series. For computer repair I would also want a logic analyser, you can get a combination scope/logic analyser these days although the idea is not new HP1630 logic analyser series started the trend and dont cost too much second hand. If you wish to verge on the older scope I may have manuals to suit http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=oscilloscope Dave Caroline From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 23 01:16:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 07:16:30 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <007601cc1910$f8351020$e89f3060$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: 23 May 2011 06:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > > > > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU > > (I am being ably assisted by a member of the list, so don't worry). As > > this is for occasional use only I can't justify spending a lot of > > money. From previous postings on the list I think I need a minimum > > spec of dual trace and 20MHz bandwidth. > > > > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it > > would be better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new > > one. Perhaps someone in the UK on this list has one they want to sell? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > Hi > You haven't stated what your intending to use it for. In my original posting I said I wanted to use it to fix a PSU. Do you need to know more details? If so, what do you need to know? A couple of people have mentioned analog vs digital. I don't have strong feelings either way. When I was a student I used analog, I have never used a digital one, so I would be happy with whichever is going to be effective and not too expensive. as this is only for occasional use > DSO are fine but there are good reasons to go with an analog scope ( I prefer > these ). > Delayed sweep and a minum of 2 channels is a must for most clasic computer > work. > Dwight > > Thanks Rob = From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon May 23 03:18:09 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:18:09 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <007601cc1910$f8351020$e89f3060$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <007601cc1910$f8351020$e89f3060$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: You will not do better than a Tektronix 465. That's the one a lot of DEC kit was developed on and serviced with. Regards ? Rod Smallwood (Digital Equipment Corporation 1975-1985) ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt Sent: 23 May 2011 07:16 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Recommendation > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: 23 May 2011 06:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > > > > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU > > (I am being ably assisted by a member of the list, so don't worry). As > > this is for occasional use only I can't justify spending a lot of > > money. From previous postings on the list I think I need a minimum > > spec of dual trace and 20MHz bandwidth. > > > > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it > > would be better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new > > one. Perhaps someone in the UK on this list has one they want to sell? > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > Hi > You haven't stated what your intending to use it for. In my original posting I said I wanted to use it to fix a PSU. Do you need to know more details? If so, what do you need to know? A couple of people have mentioned analog vs digital. I don't have strong feelings either way. When I was a student I used analog, I have never used a digital one, so I would be happy with whichever is going to be effective and not too expensive. as this is only for occasional use > DSO are fine but there are good reasons to go with an analog scope ( I prefer > these ). > Delayed sweep and a minum of 2 channels is a must for most clasic computer > work. > Dwight > > Thanks Rob = From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Mon May 23 06:12:23 2011 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 07:12:23 -0400 Subject: pdp things that are not pdp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e7819$6rh0vo@fipsb02.cogeco.net> At 01:22 PM 22/05/2011, you wrote: > > "pdp" in their model names that have nothing to do with older computers > > from DEC? Compaq and Panasonic seem to be the worst, naming memories, > > power supplies, and toner cartridges with pdp-blahblahblah. > >HP is worse :-) ... > >Firstly you gets hits for 'horsepower'. > >But even amongst things made by Hewlett Packard, it's very difficult to >only get 'classics'. We all know that hte HP9100A nad HP9100B are >early calcualtors. The HP9100C is a scanner I think, and much more >modern. > >And searching for partial model numbers (say 5940*) will get hits for >printer ink cartridges, battereis for modern (well, more modern than I am >interested in) laptops, etc. > >-tony From my own experience, if HP finds a model number that they like they don't hesitate to use it over again for some other product! See HP C5100A. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor Ont. 519-254-4991 N8Y3j8 www.chasfoxvideo.com From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon May 23 06:41:24 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 07:41:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DD9BCD0.6010307@verizon.net> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <4DD9BCD0.6010307@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2011, Keith Monahan wrote: > Rigol (whose low end scopes are rebadged by Agilent) 'scopes have gotten > pretty good reviews. They've been torn apart and reviewed by David Jones of > EEVBLOG, and he quite likes them. > > MCS Test Equipment in Conwy would seem to be your local distributor. > > http://www.mcs-testequipment.com/search-results-sales-rigol.asp?man=132 > > The regular north american site for them is > > http://www.rigolna.com/ > > From what I've read, the 100mhz hardware is in the 50mhz model, and it's only > a serial port hack away from being software-converted. Of course you can > brick your new scope, so be careful if this is what you intend to do. I'm a satisfied owner of a "hacked" Rigol 50Mhz. DSO. Very nice gadget! I purchased mine from tequipment.com. -- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon May 23 08:19:40 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 06:19:40 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, <007601cc1910$f8351020$e89f3060$@ntlworld.com>, Message-ID: HI The 465 is my favorite as well. I don't have one but if anyone has an extra sitting around, I'd take it. Even with a bad sweep rate switch ( the weakest part of this one ). Dwight > From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > > > > You will not do better than a Tektronix 465. > That's the one a lot of DEC kit was developed on and serviced with. > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood (Digital Equipment Corporation 1975-1985) > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 23 May 2011 07:16 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > > Sent: 23 May 2011 06:29 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > > > > > > > > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com > > > > > > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 PSU > > > (I am being ably assisted by a member of the list, so don't worry). As > > > this is for occasional use only I can't justify spending a lot of > > > money. From previous postings on the list I think I need a minimum > > > spec of dual trace and 20MHz bandwidth. > > > > > > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it > > > would be better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new > > > one. Perhaps someone in the UK on this list has one they want to sell? > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > Rob > > > > > > > Hi > > You haven't stated what your intending to use it for. > > > In my original posting I said I wanted to use it to fix a PSU. Do you need > to know more details? If so, what do you need to know? > > A couple of people have mentioned analog vs digital. I don't have strong > feelings either way. When I was a student I used analog, I have never used a > digital one, so I would be happy with whichever is going to be effective and > not too expensive. as this is only for occasional use > > > > DSO are fine but there are good reasons to go with an analog scope ( I > prefer > > these ). > > Delayed sweep and a minum of 2 channels is a must for most clasic > computer > > work. > > Dwight > > > > > > Thanks > > Rob > = > From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 23 08:30:26 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:30:26 -0400 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws Message-ID: > As for the pitch, I used those pitch guages which conssit of little > strips of metal with accurately cut teeth in one edge. Alas my metric set > doesn't include 0.6mm ( which is odd, since it's common for M3.5 screws), > hut the imperial one that fits is 42tpi. 42tpi is about 0.605mm pitch. I > could beleive 0.6mm (it's not that accurate after all). The 40tpi > imperial gauge doesn't fit at all. I'd still bet a donut, that a 5-40 would fit just fine for anything without a long engagement. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon May 23 10:06:42 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:06:42 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 22, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it. No. It's a standalone application for use on bare metal on the target side. The "server" side is any modern machine that can compile a C program with certain I/O library requirements (not onerous), that can inject a small bootstrap to the target PDP-11 via ODT if available (or you can toggle in the bootstrap if ODT is not available) then via the bootstrap, the vtserver program can inject a pre-compiled PDP-11 client program that knows the vtserver protocol and knows a bit about common PDP-11 mass storage devices, so you can take 2BSD tape images and write them to disks on the PDP-11 side via the console serial port. The program is not so narrowly written that it's _only_ useful for 2BSD loading, but that was the purpose for which it was written. As mentioned elsewhere, the pre-compiled vtserver client uses the MUL instruction, so will only run on a target machine with EIS, and the client requires 192K of memory (reflecting back to the original purpose of installing 2BSD, it requires that and more, so these limitations aren't limitations for that use, only for use on smaller systems and other target operating systems). There are (at least) two threads going on here - one thread is "use VTSERVER", the other thread is "use the TU58 bootstrap and OS driver with a TU58 emulator that knows how to serve oversized TU58 images". -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 23 11:38:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:38:22 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , Message-ID: <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 May 2011 at 6:19, dwight elvey wrote: > The 465 is my favorite as well. I don't have one but > if anyone has an extra sitting around, I'd take it. > Even with a bad sweep rate switch ( the weakest part > of this one ). As a 465 owner as well, I agree that it's one of the classic scopes. I'll add that if you do get one, get the manual as well. Tek scope manuals are wonderful and worth their weight in widgets. However, there are places where a DSO is far more valuable. As an example, suppose you need to look at a 20 microsecond string of pulses that are triggered every 300 milliseconds. It'll be close to impossible to see them with a regular analog scope, but a DSO will show them nicely. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 23 11:56:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110523095338.B68046@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 23 May 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I'd still bet a donut, that a 5-40 would fit just fine for anything > without a long engagement. Are you suggesting that ARD should use screws that are "almost the right size"?? From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 23 12:02:00 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:02:00 -0400 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws Message-ID: Fred writes: > On Mon, 23 May 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> I'd still bet a donut, that a 5-40 would fit just fine for anything >> without a long engagement. > Are you suggesting that ARD should use screws that are "almost the right > size"?? I was the same guy who once recommended that one should scavenge a spare board to get a terminal working, rather than repair the existing board :-). The moral equivalent here would be to have a "parts phone" that one strips for screws as necessary. Tim. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon May 23 12:09:20 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:09:20 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: 23 May 2011 17:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > On 23 May 2011 at 6:19, dwight elvey wrote: > > > The 465 is my favorite as well. I don't have one but if anyone has an > > extra sitting around, I'd take it. > > Even with a bad sweep rate switch ( the weakest part of this one ). > > As a 465 owner as well, I agree that it's one of the classic scopes. > I'll add that if you do get one, get the manual as well. Tek scope manuals are > wonderful and worth their weight in widgets. > > However, there are places where a DSO is far more valuable. As an example, > suppose you need to look at a 20 microsecond string of pulses that are > triggered every 300 milliseconds. It'll be close to impossible to see them with > a regular analog scope, but a DSO will show them nicely. > > --Chuck The guidance I have had is that for a PSU an analogue 'scope is fine. For logic then a logic analyser is what you need. Are you talking about some other category of hardware? Regards Rob From keithvz at verizon.net Mon May 23 12:19:38 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:19:38 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DDA972A.5020108@verizon.net> On 5/23/2011 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > However, there are places where a DSO is far more valuable. As an > example, suppose you need to look at a 20 microsecond string of > pulses that are triggered every 300 milliseconds. It'll be close to > impossible to see them with a regular analog scope, but a DSO will > show them nicely. > > --Chuck Chuck, While not necessarily applicable to the OP, I've found my DSO and logic analyzers to be WAAAYY more useful for 90% of the electronic projects that I work on. I don't do much analog work, and as a result, don't end up breaking out my analog scope hardly at all. There are SOME things that would be better with an analog scope, I guess I just haven't had much a need for it. Keith From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 23 12:20:08 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:20:08 -0600 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <20110523095338.B68046@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110523095338.B68046@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DDA9748.80902@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/23/2011 10:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 23 May 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> I'd still bet a donut, that a 5-40 would fit just fine for anything >> without a long engagement. > > Are you suggesting that ARD should use screws that are "almost the right > size"?? Hmm... that, a large hammer and WD40. :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 23 12:26:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:26:05 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> On 5/23/11 1:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> As a 465 owner as well, I agree that it's one of the classic scopes. >> I'll add that if you do get one, get the manual as well. Tek scope > manuals are >> wonderful and worth their weight in widgets. >> >> However, there are places where a DSO is far more valuable. As an > example, >> suppose you need to look at a 20 microsecond string of pulses that are >> triggered every 300 milliseconds. It'll be close to impossible to see > them with >> a regular analog scope, but a DSO will show them nicely. > > The guidance I have had is that for a PSU an analogue 'scope is fine. For > logic then a logic analyser is what you need. Are you talking about some > other category of hardware? Keep in mind that a DSO is substantially a different instrument, not simply a "more modern replacement for an analog oscilloscope". Many people, some of whom really should know better, assume this because that's the way things have generally worked with technology, with digital stuff being perceived as "new" and anything analog perceived as "old" or otherwise passe'. This is not completely so with DSOs. They have significant limitations that one MUST be aware of in order to use them effectively. If you don't know what you're doing with a DSO, it will give you incorrect information. That said, I strongly feel that any real electronics bench is incomplete without BOTH an analog oscilloscope and a DSO. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 23 12:30:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:30:10 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA972A.5020108@verizon.net> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <4DDA972A.5020108@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDA99A2.6020104@neurotica.com> On 5/23/11 1:19 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I don't do much analog work, and as a result, don't end up breaking out > my analog scope hardly at all. You're not suggesting that analog oscilloscopes are somehow only suitable for working on analog circuitry, are you? I'm sure it just sounded that way -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 23 12:46:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 10:46:32 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com>, <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4DDA3B08.32407.593651@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 May 2011 at 18:09, Rob Jarratt wrote: > The guidance I have had is that for a PSU an analogue 'scope is fine. > For logic then a logic analyser is what you need. Are you talking > about some other category of hardware? Printers, disk drives, data acquisiton. Logic analyzers are useful beasts, but they don't tell you anything about the *quality* of the signal (e.g. ringing, edges, etc.), although some have "glitch" detection. But we don't live in an exclusively analog world. Before DSOs we had analog storage-tube scopes. --Chuck From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon May 23 14:16:35 2011 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:16:35 +0100 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDAB293.2020605@gifford.co.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > That said, I strongly feel that any real electronics bench is > incomplete without BOTH an analog oscilloscope and a DSO. Philips made (maybe still make?) a hybrid digital/analogue scope. I have one, the PM3335. 50MHz bandwidth, or 20MSa/s in digital mode. They also made an optional RS-232 interface for it. Mine's a bit beaten up, having been used on boats to debug a transputer-based sonar system. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 23 14:27:16 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 15:27:16 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation Message-ID: > Before DSOs we had analog storage-tube scopes. Add this to the permutations: I've used a DSO to repair a Tek 4010 storage-tube terminal. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 23 14:40:51 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 12:40:51 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDAB843.8020207@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Keep in mind that a DSO is substantially a different instrument, not > simply a "more modern replacement for an analog oscilloscope". Many > people, some of whom really should know better, assume this because > that's the way things have generally worked with technology, with > digital stuff being perceived as "new" and anything analog perceived > as "old" or otherwise passe'. This is not completely so with DSOs. > They have significant limitations that one MUST be aware of in order > to use them effectively. If you don't know what you're doing with a > DSO, it will give you incorrect information. Early DSOs certainly were not suitable replacements for analog scopes. Modern DSOs, except perhaps for the very low-end ones, seem to me to be suitable to replace analog scopes for nearly all uses. Perhaps there are some limitations that I haven't encountered? Eric From keithvz at verizon.net Mon May 23 14:47:38 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 15:47:38 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA99A2.6020104@neurotica.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <4DDA972A.5020108@verizon.net> <4DDA99A2.6020104@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDAB9DA.2060603@verizon.net> On 5/23/2011 1:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/23/11 1:19 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> I don't do much analog work, and as a result, don't end up breaking out >> my analog scope hardly at all. > > You're not suggesting that analog oscilloscopes are somehow only > suitable for working on analog circuitry, are you? I'm sure it just > sounded that way > > -Dave > I may have said that, but now that you mention it, this isn't at all what I wanted to say. :) Simply put, I find the storage capabilities of a DSO and the capabilities of a logic analyzer to be more useful to the type of tasks that I find myself working on. Luckily, I haven't found any problems with signal quality or integrity, in the digital circuits that I find myself creating/using. I normally play it safe, don't use unreasonably fast speeds, long cables, do RF designs, or create my own circuit boards (yet). I am often using evaluation boards which have eliminated most of the real bad design decisions that I could make. Or I'm probing circuits that have been designed, tested, and so on --- where I've been able to rely on the fact that the signal at the pin should be within tolerances.(if the device is working as it should be) While I'm by no means an expert in any of this stuff, when I work on non-repeating signals, it's my limited understanding that an analog scope does me little good --especially if it's a temporary condition, and only happens intermittently. I'd much rather have some capability to trigger and store the problem, so I can study it. My understanding with the new Agilent DSO scopes I mentioned, is that they have an update rate of 50,000 waveforms per second, which means that you can now view glitches occurring in real time which would be missed by other devices with much lower refresh rates. Keith From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 14:19:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:19:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at May 23, 11 09:30:26 am Message-ID: > > could believe 0.6mm (it's not that accurate after all). The 40tpi=20 > > imperial gauge doesn't fit at all. Just rechecked 'em with another pitch gauge, they are certianly 0.6mm pitch... > > I'd still bet a donut, that a 5-40 would fit just fine for anything without= > a long engagement. Oh, it might do. I could probably force a normal M3 (0.5mm pitch) in there too. However, I am not sure 5-40 UNC screws are any easier to find (at least not over here, as I said, even getting the 'mormal' 2-56, 4-40, 6-32, 8-32 is difficult). And it's not 'right'. I might as well spend a couple of afternoons in the garage making the right screws. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 14:08:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:08:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 22, 11 10:28:33 pm Message-ID: > You haven't stated what your intending to use it for. I may be able to help there... The OP has an H7140 PSU in his 11/24. It failed, and a bit of testing showed the 'bias supply' which is a small SMPUS that urns all the time the machine is plugged in and which porvides power for the control sircuirty for the rest of the PSU wasn't doing anyting. This particualr part of the supply is not reparier-friendly in that virtualyl evrythign is directly conencted to the mains. But he pulled the 'bias and interface board' and run the circuitry from a 9V battery so that he could look at the pins of the 555 timer that's the control oscilaltor for the supply. The fact that pin 3 was stuck at 0V suggested the 55 was not sscillating, and I suggested he replace it. This he did, alas when he reassembeld the supply and connected it to the mains all hell broke loos with transistors and ICs blasted off the board. I am still trying to work out why. My suggesti9on is that he rebulds the board and runs it off a battery again and checks that wveforms round the 55 and the rest of the chopper drivr cirucitry are sensible. For that he needs a 'socpe. I uspect that for that almost _any_ 'scope would do, but equally it's worth getting something that will be useful for other classic computer repairs. > DSO are fine but there are good reasons to go with > an analog scope ( I prefer these ). My view is tha analogue 'scoep and SO are different instruments and that sometimes one is more use, sometimes the other. I too prefer the analogue 'scope for most work (in fact I don't think I've ever wanted a DSO to repair a clasisc computer, although I do use a logic analyser). > Delayed sweep and a minum of 2 channels is a must > for most clasic computer work. Agreed... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 14:57:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:57:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at May 23, 11 01:02:00 pm Message-ID: > I was the same guy who once recommended that one should scavenge a spare bo= > ard to get a terminal working, rather than repair the existing board :-). And I am sure I commented o nthat at the time. > > The moral equivalent here would be to have a "parts phone" that one strips = > for screws as necessary. OK, where do I find a metal-cased 'Telic' brand office intercom/line phone that I cna raid for parts? Such telephones seem rare at the best of times, the only related thread I could find on the old telephone fora was concerned one for sale at a ridiculous price (a lot more than I paid for mine I can assure you, I found it some years ago in a 'junk shop' over here). In any case 'parts units' don't work for me. I generally have the urge to fix them up too. And for something like this where the missing part (screws) cna be made in the garage in a couple of afternoons it's a no-brainer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 15:06:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 21:06:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDA3B08.32407.593651@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 23, 11 10:46:32 am Message-ID: > > On 23 May 2011 at 18:09, Rob Jarratt wrote: > > > The guidance I have had is that for a PSU an analogue 'scope is fine. > > For logic then a logic analyser is what you need. Are you talking > > about some other category of hardware? > > Printers, disk drives, data acquisiton. Logic analyzers are useful Odd.... I've repaired plenty of printers (impact dot matrix, daisy wheel, thermal dot matrix, inkjet, laser, etc) and plenty of disk drives (hard and floppy) and never had any problems managing with a good analogue 'scope and a logic analyser. I've used plenty of DSOs over the years and don't really feel that they're that useful for the sort of thing I do. If you use a DSO and it works for you, fine. It's the end result (getting the device on the bench, wherther you're designing it or repairing it working properly) that counts. But I am convinced that it's possible to repair the H7140 PSU, and indeed jsut about all other classic computer devices with an analouge 'scope. And I am certain that a good analogue 'scope is better for this than a poor DSO. > beasts, but they don't tell you anything about the *quality* of the > signal (e.g. ringing, edges, etc.), although some have "glitch" > detection. But we don't live in an exclusively analog world. Don't we? One of Vonada's laws is something like 'Digital cirucits are built from analogue parts'. And M.V.Wilkes once said to me soemthing like 'A digital circuit is like a tame animal, the analogue circuit is a wild animal. Every so often the tame animal reverts to the wild' :-) > Before DSOs we had analog storage-tube scopes. Why the past tense? Many of us still use storage tube 'scopes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon May 23 13:54:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 19:54:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at May 22, 11 09:44:21 pm Message-ID: > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I suspect it would be > better to get a higher quality used one than a cheaper new one. Perhaps I would normally go along with that, on the grounds that an old 50MHz 'socpe (say), correctly maintained, is till a 50MHz 'scope and is preferable to a modern 20MHz 'socpe. But... While an older 'socpe is likely to be much easier to repair than a modern one (fewer custom parts, etc) and will probably have much better documetation (the manuals for older Tektronics 'scopes in particular are absolutley excellent), it will prboably fial more often than a brand new 'scxope. Taht said, my experiece is that older good 'scope are still very reliable, but yuou may find you have to do the odd repair from time to time. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon May 23 15:47:07 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 22:47:07 +0200 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: <002401cc17fe$efe97bd0$cfbc7370$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at May 21, 11 11:34:54 pm Message-ID: <001701cc198a$98501c70$c8f05550$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: zondag 22 mei 2011 19:11 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws > > > > > A little OT trivia about French metric, until 1968 they used their own > > metric system for small screws < M6. > > Right... That explains a lot. > > > I'm having the same problems getting M5 for my Citroen DS from > > 1967...when > > I've not looked, can you still get the tap and die in the right pitch? Yes, through a specialized firm, Citrotech www.citrotech.nl They also rebuild and remanufacture hydraulic components for classic Citroens. > > If not, M5 is large enough in diameter to be not too difficult to screwcut on a > lathe. I guess that would be OK if you need 1 or 2 of them, less fun if you need > 100. > > -tony -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 23 16:25:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 14:25:50 -0700 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: from "Shoppa, Tim" at May 23, 11 09:30:26 am, Message-ID: <4DDA6E6E.3018.121FA40@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 May 2011 at 20:19, Tony Duell wrote: > However, I am not sure 5-40 UNC screws are any easier to find (at > least not over here, as I said, even getting the 'mormal' 2-56, 4-40, > 6-32, 8-32 is difficult). And it's not 'right'. I might as well spend > a couple of afternoons in the garage making the right screws. There are some application-specific wierdnesses too. For example, tacquets on US-made piston valvesets for musical instruments are 3- 48. Fortunately, I do have a set of taps and a die for that thread. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 23 17:23:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:23:50 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDAB293.2020605@gifford.co.uk> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> <4DDAB293.2020605@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DDADE76.1030506@neurotica.com> On 5/23/11 3:16 PM, John Honniball wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> That said, I strongly feel that any real electronics bench is >> incomplete without BOTH an analog oscilloscope and a DSO. > > Philips made (maybe still make?) a hybrid digital/analogue scope. > I have one, the PM3335. 50MHz bandwidth, or 20MSa/s in digital > mode. They also made an optional RS-232 interface for it. > Mine's a bit beaten up, having been used on boats to debug a > transputer-based sonar system. Hey, that sounds like a neat scope! I will keep an eye open for one. I've been really impressed with the Philips test equipment that I've seen. My lab counter/timer is a Philips; it's wonderful. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 23 17:57:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:57:46 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDAB843.8020207@brouhaha.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> <4DDAB843.8020207@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DDAE66A.10409@neurotica.com> On 5/23/11 3:40 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Keep in mind that a DSO is substantially a different instrument, not >> simply a "more modern replacement for an analog oscilloscope". Many >> people, some of whom really should know better, assume this because >> that's the way things have generally worked with technology, with >> digital stuff being perceived as "new" and anything analog perceived >> as "old" or otherwise passe'. This is not completely so with DSOs. >> They have significant limitations that one MUST be aware of in order >> to use them effectively. If you don't know what you're doing with a >> DSO, it will give you incorrect information. > > Early DSOs certainly were not suitable replacements for analog scopes. > Modern DSOs, except perhaps for the very low-end ones, seem to me to be > suitable to replace analog scopes for nearly all uses. Perhaps there are > some limitations that I haven't encountered? Display update rates and vertical bandwidth limitations can be issues for high-speed stuff like laser hacking. Lack of vertical resolution (8 bits in many scopes) limits display of waveform detail. The "fade out" effects of CRT phosphor in a fast analog recurrent sweep is useful for some applications and tough to emulate, though Tek's "DPO" (Digital Phosphor Oscilloscope) line did make a good stab at addressing that. Ruggedness in extremely electrically unfriendly environments can also be an issue. My friend Jon Singer (noted laser guy) regularly sees trace curlicues, no joke, on his Tek 7104's display during test firings of his lasers...I'm not at all confident of modern digital scopes' ability to survive that sort of electrical pounding. Some of these things are now being addressed by very high-end digital scopes. So nowadays, you might be able to buy a digitizing scope for about the price of a Porsche 911 that might approach the performance in some of the above-mentioned areas of an analog scope that can be picked up for a few hundred bucks, along with a spare. ;) In that situation, it's pretty foolish to push for a digitizing oscilloscope just for the sake of "going digital". Note well that I'm not poo-pooing digitizing oscilloscopes. I have several (Tek TDS3012, HP 54111D, a few LeCroy high-resolution scopes) and I use them regularly. My intention here is to point out that they are not always viable replacements for analog oscilloscopes...they're fundamentally different pieces of test equipment, with different strengths, weaknesses, and applications. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dm561 at torfree.net Mon May 23 19:00:58 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:00:58 -0400 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment References: Message-ID: <41B225B145C1438B8A3F89C2DC1E95B7@vl420mt> ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 22:56:32 -0500 > From: Daniel Seagraves > Subject: Re: Scraping DEC Equipment > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > I need a tractor feed assembly for a LA100, are the ones on the 120 > compatible? ----- Reply: Apparently not, but I might have one for an LA100. mike From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon May 23 19:44:11 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 17:44:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 844.8 KHz crystal on DEC board In-Reply-To: <41B225B145C1438B8A3F89C2DC1E95B7@vl420mt> Message-ID: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Does anyone have an 844.8 KHz crystal that they could spare? It is used on an DEC M7800 line interface board for the 110 baud versions and also on the M7341 boards. Can't seem to find one anywhere. Thanks, Bob From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon May 23 19:48:22 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 17:48:22 -0700 Subject: 844.8 KHz crystal on DEC board In-Reply-To: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob, I have a *bunch* of M7800 boards however they're all packed up due to moving my shop. I'm sure there's more than one with the right crystal. Let me know if you can't find one elsewhere. TTFN - Guy On May 23, 2011, at 5:44 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Does anyone have an 844.8 KHz crystal that they could spare? > It is used on an DEC M7800 line interface board for the > 110 baud versions and also on the M7341 boards. Can't > seem to find one anywhere. > > Thanks, > > Bob > From eric at brouhaha.com Mon May 23 20:09:09 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 18:09:09 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDAE66A.10409@neurotica.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, , <4DDA2B0E.26545.1ACBCD@cclist.sydex.com> <00a701cc196c$2beebb90$83cc32b0$@ntlworld.com> <4DDA98AD.1090709@neurotica.com> <4DDAB843.8020207@brouhaha.com> <4DDAE66A.10409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDB0535.2090009@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Display update rates and vertical bandwidth limitations can be > issues for high-speed stuff like laser hacking. Lack of vertical > resolution (8 bits in many scopes) limits display of waveform detail. Vertical bandwidth has always been an issue on both analog and digital scopes, in that the more bandwidth you want, the more you pay. DSOs are available with more vertical bandwidth than any analog scope ever had. Naturally, you don't get that much bandwidth in the inexpensive models. You get what you pay for. Similarly, update rates are poor in the most inexpensive models. Obviously I wasn't claiming that any super-el-cheapo DSO was better than a good analog scope. But remember, there were also some pretty crappy analog scopes back in the day. Even Tektronix had a few dogs. > The "fade out" effects of CRT phosphor in a fast analog recurrent > sweep is useful for some applications and tough to emulate, though > Tek's "DPO" (Digital Phosphor Oscilloscope) line did make a good stab > at addressing that. Many of the DSOs do that now. > Ruggedness in extremely electrically unfriendly environments can > also be an issue. My friend Jon Singer (noted laser guy) regularly > sees trace curlicues, no joke, on his Tek 7104's display during test > firings of his lasers...I'm not at all confident of modern digital > scopes' ability to survive that sort of electrical pounding. I don't think most of the high-end analog scopes made in the 1980s and 1990s could withstand that environment either. > > Some of these things are now being addressed by very high-end > digital scopes. Actually, even in some fairly inexpensive DSOs. > So nowadays, you might be able to buy a digitizing scope for about > the price of a Porsche 911 that might approach the performance in some > of the above-mentioned areas of an analog scope that can be picked up > for a few hundred bucks, along with a spare. ;) For *far* less than the price of a Porsche 911, unless you're talking about a really old fixer-upper 911. > In that situation, it's pretty foolish to push for a digitizing > oscilloscope just for the sake of "going digital". No, but if you're ever going to try to use it to troubleshoot complex digital systems, you might be better off with a DSO. > > Note well that I'm not poo-pooing digitizing oscilloscopes. I have > several (Tek TDS3012, HP 54111D, a few LeCroy high-resolution scopes) > and I use them regularly. My intention here is to point out that they > are not always viable replacements for analog oscilloscopes...they're > fundamentally different pieces of test equipment, with different > strengths, weaknesses, and applications. I agree, but I think you're behind the times regarding how they compare. Except for the bottom-of-the-line, almost any DSO now is going to be suitable for the majority of things that analog scopes were used for in the past. Eric From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon May 23 20:25:28 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:25:28 -0500 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <4DDA9748.80902@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20110523095338.B68046@shell.lmi.net> <4DDA9748.80902@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DDB0908.4000902@gmail.com> ben wrote: > On 5/23/2011 10:56 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 23 May 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> I'd still bet a donut, that a 5-40 would fit just fine for anything >>> without a long engagement. >> >> Are you suggesting that ARD should use screws that are "almost the right >> size"?? > > Hmm... that, a large hammer and WD40. :) Uh oh. Quick, to the bunker! :-) From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon May 23 20:50:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 20:50:28 -0500 Subject: 844.8 KHz crystal on DEC board In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: got any odd XT searial cards theres a potential for there being one on them i have been told From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 23 21:35:45 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 19:35:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Genuine gonkulator cable Message-ID: If anyone's looking for a gonkulator cable for your DEC VAX, check out Ebay auction number 200609594604 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spectre at floodgap.com Mon May 23 21:39:38 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 19:39:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Genuine gonkulator cable In-Reply-To: from David Griffith at "May 23, 11 07:35:45 pm" Message-ID: <201105240239.p4O2dc2e012184@floodgap.com> > If anyone's looking for a gonkulator cable for your DEC VAX, check out > Ebay auction number 200609594604 Those catch rabbits, don't they? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to type. - S. Gardner "HOOOOOOOOGAN!" From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon May 23 22:16:09 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 23:16:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: So, I picked up a PDP-11/03 at VCF East, with a single RX01 drive. I'm told it was used as the control processor for a VAX-11/780. It has the following boards installed: M7264 EB 11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM M7940 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) M7946 RX01 8" floppy disk controller M8017 Single-line async control module M7944 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM (external refresh) M9400 YE Headers and 240-ohm terminators (18-bit bus only) There's one open dual-width slot in the card cage. It looks like I have the cable for the M7940 to connect to a terminal, as well as the RX01 cable. With 8KW of RAM, what would I be able to run on this system? Recommendations? I'm a novice in the PDP-11 world. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 23 22:20:57 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 21:20:57 -0600 Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment In-Reply-To: References: <7E8E1FD2BDD24780B686DEC3E60D6E03@LENOVOPHIL> <002c01cc1890$95620cd0$c0262670$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > I am keen to get hold of a VT100, but shipping to the UK is likely to be > > expensive, how much would you want for a VT100? > > The chances of a VT100 making it to the UK safely are very small. They > are notoriously hard to ship, more so than most CRT devices. The tube and keyboard usually survive; its the plastic enclosure that gets damaged. It seems to have gotten quite fragile with the passage of time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon May 23 23:41:37 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 21:41:37 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: At 11:16 PM -0400 5/23/11, Mike Loewen wrote: > So, I picked up a PDP-11/03 at VCF East, with a single RX01 >drive. I'm told it was used as the control processor for a >VAX-11/780. It has the following boards installed: > >M7264 EB 11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM >M7940 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) >M7946 RX01 8" floppy disk controller >M8017 Single-line async control module >M7944 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM (external refresh) >M9400 YE Headers and 240-ohm terminators (18-bit bus only) > > There's one open dual-width slot in the card cage. It looks like >I have the cable for the M7940 to connect to a terminal, as well as >the RX01 cable. > > With 8KW of RAM, what would I be able to run on this system? >Recommendations? I'm a novice in the PDP-11 world. With that little RAM, that's actually a good question, and I'm curious to see what others come up with. I think at least early versions of RT-11SJ will fit. The OS that comes to mind is the Paper-Tape OS, though I don't know if it supports an 11/03. Another problem is your available I/O. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon May 23 23:54:56 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 21:54:56 -0700 Subject: 844.8 KHz crystal on DEC board In-Reply-To: References: <726685.44940.qm@web80503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DDB3A20.9020904@sbcglobal.net> On 5/23/2011 6:50 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > got any odd XT searial cards theres a potential for there being one on them > i have been told > Good idea but no luck so far, all of the old serial cards I could find have an 18.432 MHz oscillator. I remember seeing many more Apple II's connected to Teletypes than PC's so I'll check old Apple serial cards next. Thanks, Bob From bqt at softjar.se Mon May 23 02:13:04 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 00:13:04 -0700 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDA0900.3060904@softjar.se> On 2011-05-22 22.54, Roger Pugh wrote: > On 05/22/2011 10:15, David Griffith wrote: >> > I was looking around for pictures of PDP11 front panels and stumbled >> > across this page. I think mass quantities of alcohol were involved. >> > Have your eyebleach at the ready. >> > >> > http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > OK... own up.. Who has a PDP in their bedroom??????? LOL I used to live with a PDP-8/A in my bedroom for about 10 years. Running 24/7 for lots of those years... Nowadays, I'm more lazy, and only have a PDP-11/93 in the bedroom. The rest of my machines are in the cellar. Johnny From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Mon May 23 05:53:05 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 11:53:05 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Scraping DEC Equipment Message-ID: <01O1M9TAVNZ600123B@beyondthepale.ie> > >> I'm looking for a flyback transformer for a VT220 - I'm in Dublin, Ireland. >> >> As far as I can tell, there are at least two different types but hopefully >> only the mounting arrangements differ. > >I did some research on this a while back. In one model the flyback is an >easy field replace unit but in the other model the flyback is soldered >to the power board. > Mine is soldered to the board but I'm happy enough to adapt the other type to fit if it's the only one I can get. The other components seem to be the same so I am hopeful that the transformers do not differ electrically. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonas at otter.se Mon May 23 07:21:05 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 14:21:05 +0200 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d2663d49b08d46b463905be7af2b9eb@otter.se> >> It is a French telephone after all ;-) >> > > I am not sure if you're implying that that's why a 'French Metirc > Thread' > is likely to be correct or if you're saying 'It's French, it's bound > to > be odd'. Having maintained Citroen car for 13 years, I came to the > conclusion that French engineering is often strange, but equally it's > often very good (and ingenious). > I totally agree with you. I have no problems with French engineering at all. I have spent a lot of my childhood and adolescence in France and I love it. But they do like to do things their own way, so to speak ;-) Very good engineering but usually not like anybody else's. /Jonas From james at machineroom.info Mon May 23 15:25:26 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 21:25:26 +0100 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> Hi Jochen, that's a really nice haul :) I guess you've already found Rams page at http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/. That should have all the data sheets you need. The TRAMs with the T800 and DRAM sound like fairly ordinary processing TRAMs. I've never see a B420 before and I'm guessing it's quite a rare beast. I did sell some of my TRAMs a while back on ePay and they sold well - there's a fairly strong group of collectors out there so you could always raise some funds for PDP kit if you have no interest in them yourself. James On 22/05/2011 19:46, Jochen Kunz wrote: > Hi. > > In a recent dumpster diving session I rescued three "IMS B012" boards. > These are "VMEbus Master Motherboards" with 16 slots for TRAMs > (TRAnsputer Modules). The three B012 are equiped with a total of 29 > TRAMs. Each TRAM consists of one T800 Transputer chip and 1 MB of DRAM. > In addition there is a single B420 Vector Processing TRAM. > > So, what to do with this stuff? > > There is a lot of documentation out there on the net. This covers > topics like theory of operation, programming languages, libraries, ... > but no "how to get started with real hardware" guide. > > I have a VME chassis to put them in. Currently this chassis houses a > MVME68k machine running NetBSD. But as I understand the documentation > on the B012 it uses the VME form factor, but has no real VMEbus > interface. So my hope to use the MVME68k (or one of my Sun3 / Sun4 > VME machines) as a host is lost. It would have been cool to add the > transputers as a co-processor to my Sun 4/110 or 4/610... > > If I can't get any use out of the Transputers I would like to trade > them for some more ordinary QBus stuff for my PDP-11. I need a M8061 > RLV12 RL01/RL02 disk controller, QBus memory (at least 1 MB) and > perhaps a M7559 TQK70 TK70 controller. > > Alternatively a MVME160x PPC VME CPU board would be nice From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue May 24 04:25:41 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 02:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Augat boards on eBay Message-ID: <295722.30865.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This fellow has multiple units of NOS Augat wire-wrap boards for $29.95 each. Seems like a good price given what the gold scrappers are paying these days, which is where they will likely end up if some vintage homebrew hobbyists don't snap them up... Item # 250823044454 http://cgi.ebay.com/Mupac-TLR8922-Proto-Board-Gold-Recovery-/250823044454?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item3a6637ed66&vil=1 --Bill From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue May 24 07:08:28 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 08:08:28 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <201105240808.28714.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, May 23, 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > So, I picked up a PDP-11/03 at VCF East, with a single RX01 > drive. I'm told it was used as the control processor for a > VAX-11/780. It has the following boards installed: > ... > > With 8KW of RAM, what would I be able to run on this system? > Recommendations? I'm a novice in the PDP-11 world. It's too bad that you didn't get the rest of the 11/780, because it'd be best at running the 11/780 console program. :) Unfortunately, that's not much memory. You might want to find a 16 or 28/32kW board to put in. -- Patrick Finnegan From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 24 07:19:50 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 05:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Genuine gonkulator cable In-Reply-To: <201105240239.p4O2dc2e012184@floodgap.com> References: <201105240239.p4O2dc2e012184@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 May 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> If anyone's looking for a gonkulator cable for your DEC VAX, check out >> Ebay auction number 200609594604 > > Those catch rabbits, don't they? Ducks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 24 08:13:24 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:13:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> On 05/23/2011 11:16 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > So, I picked up a PDP-11/03 at VCF East, with a single RX01 drive. > I'm told it was used as the control processor for a VAX-11/780. It > has the following boards installed: > > M7264 EB 11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM > M7940 Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) > M7946 RX01 8" floppy disk controller > M8017 Single-line async control module > M7944 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM (external refresh) > M9400 YE Headers and 240-ohm terminators (18-bit bus only) > > There's one open dual-width slot in the card cage. It looks like I > have the cable for the M7940 to connect to a terminal, as well as the > RX01 cable. > > With 8KW of RAM, what would I be able to run on this system? > Recommendations? I'm a novice in the PDP-11 world. Yep the 780s used a LSI11 as a boot diagnostic processor. It was there to copy the microcode into ram. The 780 had a minimal microcode in rom but the major part was soft loaded. When diagnostics were needed the LSI 11 could load alternate microcode for that and I believe do some system monitoring. With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it would not do much. However finding another 8KB or even a 32KW ram board is not that hard and then any version is runnable. the minimum for a runnable system is 16KB if memory serves. With a single 32KW you actually get 26KW of ram and the rest is mapped out for IO. Allison From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue May 24 08:45:29 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 06:45:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for an Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal Message-ID: <190271.9584.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Well, it's been a good couple of months, and I've managed to acquire a couple of things I've been looking for for a long time. One elusive bit of hardware that I'm still trying to track down is an Ann Arbor Ambassador terminal. Unlike my "big" terminal grail (Tektronix 4010/4014), I've never seen one of these on eBay. I haven't seen one at all in a very, very long time. It probably doesn't show up simply because it's really not all that interesting from a historical perspective. Also, I'm not so sure they were very reliable. It's an ASCII only terminal, no graphics. I don't believe it's VT100 compatible. But it's got some neat features, it's fast, and has a very nice keyboard. So, does anyone even have one of these? I'd definitely be interested in acquiring one, but even if you don't want to part with it, it would be nice to know that there are still some out there. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 24 08:48:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:48:12 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 9:13 AM, allison wrote: > With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it would > not do much. Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) > However finding > another 8KB or even a 32KW ram board is not that hard and then any > version is runnable. the minimum > for a runnable system is 16KB if memory serves. With a single 32KW you > actually get 26KW of ram > and the rest is mapped out for IO. M8044s are everywhere. I have lots of them. Mike, I can't unearth one for you right now, but after my upcoming move I should be able to hook you up. I'm moving to the Pittsburgh area; where in PA are you? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue May 24 08:51:45 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:51:45 -0400 Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws Message-ID: >> However, I am not sure 5-40 UNC screws are any easier to find (at >> least not over here, as I said, even getting the 'mormal' 2-56, 4-40, >> 6-32, 8-32 is difficult). And it's not 'right'. I might as well spend >> a couple of afternoons in the garage making the right screws. > There are some application-specific wierdnesses too. For example, > tacquets on US-made piston valvesets for musical instruments are 3- > 48. Fortunately, I do have a set of taps and a die for that > thread. ??? 5-40, 3-48 etc. are all perfectly "normal" sizes (any decent hardware store will have them, although I wouldn't place any bets on finding the odd numbers at say Home Depot) And Tony, maybe instead of calling it a 6-32 you would have better luck in the UK asking for a "computer case screw." The demise of "decent hardware stores" is perhaps a different thread. Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 24 09:29:50 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 07:29:50 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 9:48 AM -0400 5/24/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 5/24/11 9:13 AM, allison wrote: >>With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it would >>not do much. > > Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) Now those are fighting words... I find v5.4 and higher to be very capable. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 24 09:36:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 10:36:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 10:29 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it would >>> not do much. >> >> Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) > > Now those are fighting words... I find v5.4 and higher to be very capable. Nah, I don't really dislike RT11. I'm just accustomed to multitasking/timesharing operating systems. (beyond RT11FB, you know what I mean..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pspan at amerytel.net Tue May 24 09:37:30 2011 From: pspan at amerytel.net (Phil) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:37:30 -0500 Subject: DEC Scrap Message-ID: Hi All, I thought I would post to everyone at one time with this list rather than an individual emails, for expediancy. 6 ea LA 120's with keyboards, it looked like only the #7 button missing from 1 keyboard 3 ea LA 120's w/o keyboards 6 ea Dual 8" floppy drives made by SMS 3 ea combo 8" floppy and 10 mb Hard disk by SMS 6 ea dual 10mb bernoulli drives (IOMEGA) (also have cartridges) I also have 8" floppy drive media which was DEC formatted, though digging that out might be a little challanging. I think there is enough stuff here for everyone to get a little. Phil PS Please keep in mind that this stuff has been in a non-temp controlled storage for at least 6 years!!!! From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 24 09:40:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 07:40:13 -0700 Subject: Augat boards on eBay In-Reply-To: <295722.30865.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <295722.30865.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DDBC34D.90600@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/11 2:25 AM, William Maddox wrote: > This fellow has multiple units of NOS Augat wire-wrap boards for $29.95 each. > Seems like a good price given what the gold scrappers are paying these days, > which is where they will likely end up if some vintage homebrew hobbyists > don't snap them up... > > Item # 250823044454 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mupac-TLR8922-Proto-Board-Gold-Recovery-/250823044454?pt=BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item3a6637ed66&vil=1 > One thing to be careful of is these boards are thick, and require special Augat edge connectors to mate with. From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Tue May 24 10:08:31 2011 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:08:31 +0200 Subject: Ferro Resonance transformer and IBM Message-ID: Hi all, I am restoring an old IBM terminal with a ferro resonance transformer. I slowly increase the prim voltage with a variac. At the same time I measure the sec voltages. The normal voltage at the prim site is 240V At +/- 130V (prim) I have already normal voltage at the sec site. (+5V , -18V etc) The sec side is loaded and contains no regulators. Anyone any idea why at 130v everything is normal. I don't dear to go to 220V Thanks for all your replies. Henk From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 24 10:35:57 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:35:57 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDBD05D.3040304@verizon.net> On 05/24/2011 10:30 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Ooh, I like the BA11VA chassis, it's quite "cute" in it's compactness. > Though, I'm more partial to the VT-103 -- which I'm still trying to > get from the person who I know has one -- mostly becuase it's a QBUS > '11 in a VT-100 with real TU58 mounted under the CRT (or at least it > was an option to have the TU58, I think; I'm not sure, I have to go > check the BitSavers documentation again). > That combo is possible IF the PDT110 case was hybrided with the VT103 internal hardware. I believe there were some of those made that way for the printing/typesetting industry. My BA11VA was my first 11 back in '79. The TU58 used with it is in a similar box so they stack nice and the BA11 provides the power. > My 11/23 is currently in a PDP-11/03L chassis (9-slot, quad-width, > Q18/CD backplane). Interms of cards in it the system, I have an 11/23 > CPU (with MMU, no FPP, or CIS), 256KB RAM made by a tird-party, DLVJ-1 > quad-SLU, RQDX3, M9058 distributor board for the RQDX3 and the > BDV11-YA 18-bit bootstrap/diagnotics/terminator board. > > It's currently hooked up to my spare PC, which provides both the > terminal, and TU58 emulation to the system. I currently have the > system booting RT-11FB; I'd rather boot RT-11XM, but I'm having > difficulty modifying the DDX.SYS driver. > I have VT100, Vt125, Vt185 (100+125 using factory board), several VT320 and a VT330(color). They just work better than PCs. > Right now I'm looking for disks and diskettes for my system... as well > as generally improving the system. (I'd like to go to Q22 serpentine, > and an 11/73 with enough RAM and disk to run 2.11 BSD; but that might > be slightly difficult given my lack of money, and in-)ability to go > and get anything.) > I have my 11/73 and that a BA11S with a Q22 serpentine. Its populated with 11/73, 4MB ram, RLV21/RL02, RQDX3(3 RD52s 1 RX33), RX02, TK50, DEQNA in a 50inch corp cab. Thats the big system. Others include two BA11S each with 11/23B, 1mb ram running RQDX2 controllers and a RD51, RX50. > Your luggable 11/23 sounds pretty neat. Do you have any photos of it? > Sorry no, I haven't thought to. The dual width 12 slot case set the dimensions as 8" high. With that the drivers are oriented vertical with a bezel to make up the height (pair of TEAC 55GFR) and the PS is along side the card cage with fans in between. Air flow was the real challange and it's in via one side of the back and out via the other side of the back so that it flows across the PS through a divider holding the fans (10V from ba23 with thermal speed control) across the 12slot cage and out that side through a grill (perforated aluminum). The H780 PS with the three switches are front accessable with the floppies and a 4 port serial panel on the rear next to the IEC power connector. The back folds down on a piano hinge for access. Simple box of minimum size to hold all, no miters edges or the like just a box. One of the planned changes is to put a ST225 I have in place of one of the floppies. I've since looked at it and have a slot left for a VK170 video card. Also found a serial ascii keyboard at a flea (boot sale). So I'm considering junking that case and making it bigger to fit a 7" crt or LCD to take the video from the VK170 and having a pocket for the keyboard. Then it would be self contained system but easier to transport and faster than a PDT. The end result would be a PDP11 version of Darth Vaders lunch box (KAYPRO). Allison > Cheers to you, > > -- Christian > > > > > > On 22 May 2011 18:19, allison wrote: >> On 05/22/2011 04:50 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>> Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it. >>> >>> But yes, an RT-11 build for the TU58 uses the DD.SYS driver. Though, >>> building it for an oversize TU58 image is the same, just with the >>> modified driver replacing the "plain, vanilla" DD.SYS. (You can get >>> the modified driver onto a disk image on your PC via PUTR. You can >>> even skip using an emulator altogether and just build images in PUTR.) >>> >>> I've used PDP-11 sims for a while, mostly because I've only *JUST* got >>> my hands on a real PDP-11 (11/23 w/256KB RAM, DLVJ-1, and RQDX3); >>> though I'm relying on the oversized TU58 images as my disk media as I >>> have no real disks unfortunately. (So the RL02 sized TU58 images, >>> though slightly slow, provide me an actual usable RT-11 environment >>> (I've DECUS C and the RT-11 BASIC on my system "tape" while the second >>> TU58 is my data "tape").) I'm also negotiating for a VT-103 as well. >>> >> My collection includes a few real TU58s working. My fun 11 that is the most >> portable one is: >> >> BA11VA >> 11/23 >> 512K ram >> DLV11J >> MRV21 (holds a boot for tu58) >> >> I run RT11XM on it and the first boot cycle load the base image and then >> inits >> VM: and then copies the system to it and boots VM. After that the system is >> fairly useful as most mundane tasks do not hit the tape. It ends up with >> about >> half of the 512K as virtual disk and XM running in the other half. I do >> this on >> the larger systems running RX02 or RX50 with 2mb ram installed and that >> really >> is nicer. >> >> FYI: for those that have Qbus 11s disks are possible, you need a RQDX1/2/3, >> cables >> and the module from the BA123 (or BA23) to break the 50wide cable to MFM >> hard >> disk AND 34pin floppy (RX50, RX33). If you can't find a RX50 or RX33 then >> hunt >> down anything 5.25" 80track that can be jumpered to work like a TEAC >> FD55GFR. >> the preferred distribution board is the one out of the BA123 as it supports >> more >> of a given media and different possible media. the bridge baord requires >> power >> but if need be it can be hand wired if the backplane lacks room. >> >> Generally RQDX controllers are easy to find but most people bemoan the lack >> of >> MFM hard disks. But for a floppy only system it can be setup for two RX50 >> or >> two RX33s or two RX23s. RT11 supports MSCP controllers of all versions. >> >> The preferred controller is the later versions of RQDX3 as the late firmware >> will also >> run 3.5" 800k (RX23/22) which uses bacially PC compatable 3.5" media and it >> also >> supports the RX33 drive at both 400K side and 1.6MB side. Even without the >> late >> firmware Most dial denity 3.5" drives are supportable at the lower density >> of 400K >> single sided (same as RX50). For that you that do this will have to use a >> PC to >> format media or a mVAX2000 or for those that have it X11 diagnostics. >> >> I've taken a 11/23 (m8186), 4 M8059 (1MB of ram total), MRV21 rom card, >> DRV11J M8043, RQDX3/distribution into a 12 slot dual wide cage and with >> a DEC BA11 supply (RTC, Bevent-L, and reset support via standard 3 switch >> panel) into a finished plywood box with two RX33s as a lugable and useful >> system. The terminal is laptop with minicom or a real VT320 It's light and >> runs RTXM nicely. >> >> Before any one gets upset with that apparent abomination it's built with >> excess spares for the other six Qbus 11s from LSI11 through 11/73. No >> Qbus 11s were executed to build it. Of all my Qbus-11s it's the handiest >> as by PDP11 standards its very portable. >> >> >> Allison >> >> >> >> >>> >>> On 22 May 2011 09:06, allison wrote: >>>> On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>>>> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >>>>> wrote: >>>>>> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >>>>>> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). >>>>> I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with >>>>> a command that would definitely not work as intended. >>>>> >>>>>> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >>>>>> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >>>>>> blocks on the real media. >>>>> Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as >>>>> RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and >>>>> then transfered to the target system? >>>>> >>>>> Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of >>>>> rotating media/disk images and not tape images. What is the right >>>>> way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks. >>>>> >>>>> Chris >>>>> >>>> Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools >>>> and source files to build a tape image. >>>> >>>> NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device on >>>> the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just >>>> slower. >>>> That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very >>>> different from TU58. >>>> >>>> So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02 >>>> save for the DD driver is used instead. >>>> >>>> I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing >>>> and many of them. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Allison >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 24 11:10:06 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 12:10:06 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> On 05/24/2011 10:29 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:48 AM -0400 5/24/11, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 5/24/11 9:13 AM, allison wrote: >>> With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it would >>> not do much. >> >> Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) > > Now those are fighting words... I find v5.4 and higher to be very > capable. > Dave, Huh? Well, maybe from the quadcore terabyte Internet connected 3dHD graphics point of view. Technically computers are useless as hammers but very useful like hammers when you have a saw, wood, and a box of nails. So to me in 1983 a relatively small PDP11 with 20mb of removable disk was more useful than a IBM PC running DOS and whole lot faster. I had the experience and foresight with my experience with Z80 and CP/M to know that a few basic tools and environment begest useful software. So from my desk in 1983 what I had was the hammer (the ultimate hammer was a VAX730) and it was mine! That was the working OS for my local system for the better part of 5 years at DEC when other people were still wishing for a "desktop computer" I had one and with EDT, spreadsheet, database, ASMbler, BASIC, and DECUS C, and even connectivity (vterm) to the mainframe. EDT (ked) was no word processor but it understood Teco and was a screen editor very fast and keystroke compatible with Vedit (on my Z80 systems at home). That and it worked like EDIT on the VAX. The reason for that is I could run the VT100 and later VT220 at 19200 and the VAX (MILLRAT::). Connectivity was 4800 baud(and pushing it) current loop then (best guess was more than 1000ft of wire between my desk and the VAX) and terminal servers (LAT) hadn't been invented. So a screen update by edit via VAX was often slow but the PDP11 was not hampered that way. As a result of my work the printer hooked to it was a 12PPM Laser (LN01). That meant I didn't have to read LP26 band printer green bar and like to the other building for it (DEC mill). That system was 11/23 and later 11/23B with 2mb and two RL02s and a RX02 in corp cab next to m desk. I also have a LN01 Printer (using LP27 interface card) for printing. Later it ran RSTS then RSX11 with a DEQNA decnet phaseIII and one of the services was "printserver" allowing local users via network to print to that LN01. To me RT11( I ran XM) was the equivalent of CP/M on Z80 and provided a useful environment to do the things I needed to do. Imagination made it useful as I could gather or cook up the bits needed to do my work and often faster. So RT11V5..useless no, not at all. Allison > Zane > > > From shumaker at att.net Tue May 24 11:20:45 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:20:45 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> There appears to be a complete dual rack Sperry Univac V72 minicomputer in a currently open auction at Dove Bid. auction is electronic manufacturing exchange #142 lot id is 35421 "Equipment Rack" http://www.go-dove.com/event-15292/Electronic-Manufacturing-Exchange-142-Online-Auction-North-America/lot-35421/Equipment-Rack item is listed as an "equipment rack" but photos show what appears to be a complete system including a V72 minicomputer with full front panel controls, power units and a tape drive. I'm lusting here but there's no way.... steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 24 11:29:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 12:29:09 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 12:10 PM, allison wrote: >>>> With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it would >>>> not do much. >>> >>> Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) >> >> Now those are fighting words... I find v5.4 and higher to be very >> capable. > > Dave, > > Huh? Well, maybe from the quadcore terabyte Internet connected 3dHD > graphics > point of view. No, from a connect-ten-terminals-and-a-few-modems point of view. > So RT11V5..useless no, not at all. I never said it was. I just said it doesn't do much, which is true. It's a bit more capable than CP/M. Wonderful and fantastic for single-user, single-terminal work...but that's about it. My only experience with PDP-11 systems in production at work years ago was multitasking, multiuser applications, so that's where my interests lie. For single-user, single-tasking stuff, I'm a CP/M guy. That said, I do use RT11 quite a bit, but my primary PDP-11-related interests lie with the "bigger" OSs and system configurations. This is a matter of point of view, yes...but from a RSTS/E and RSX-11M point of view, not a "quadcore terabyte Interet connected 3dHD" point of view. You should know me better than that by now. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 24 11:40:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:40:13 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> Message-ID: <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> On 5/24/11 9:20 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > item is listed as an "equipment rack" but photos show what appears to be a complete system including a V72 minicomputer with full front panel controls, power units and a tape drive. > > I'm lusting here but there's no way.... > Well, hopefully someone line Bill Maddox will go after this. V-series minis don't show up very often. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue May 24 11:41:57 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:41:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC Scrap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 24 May 2011, Phil wrote: > Hi All, > > I thought I would post to everyone at one time with this list rather than an > individual emails, for expediancy. > > 6 ea LA 120's with keyboards, it looked like only the #7 button missing from > 1 keyboard > 3 ea LA 120's w/o keyboards > 6 ea Dual 8" floppy drives made by SMS > 3 ea combo 8" floppy and 10 mb Hard disk by SMS > 6 ea dual 10mb bernoulli drives (IOMEGA) (also have cartridges) > > I also have 8" floppy drive media which was DEC formatted, though digging > that out might be a little challanging. I think there is enough stuff here > for everyone to get a little. > > Phil > > PS Please keep in mind that this stuff has been in a non-temp controlled > storage for at least 6 years!!!! Geographic location? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From arcarlini at iee.org Tue May 24 11:51:09 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:51:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6913EB7C009843A3BEB8AAB4A8C484F1@ANTONIOPC> Mike Loewen [mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us] wrote: > With 8KW of RAM, what would I be able to run on this system? > Recommendations? I'm a novice in the PDP-11 world. That's pretty low-end - probably best suited to running the VAX-11/780 console software - I'd concentrate on getting hold of the rest of 780 :-) I don't recall RT-11s memory requirements, you might be able to run SJ in that? Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:01:08 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 13:01:08 -0400 Subject: Ferro Resonance transformer and IBM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am restoring an old IBM terminal with a ferro resonance transformer. > I slowly increase the prim voltage with a variac. > At the same time I measure the sec voltages. > The normal voltage at the prim site is 240V > > At +/- 130V (prim) I have already normal voltage at the sec site. > (+5V , -18V etc) > The sec side is loaded and contains no regulators. > > Anyone any idea why at 130v everything is normal. > I don't dear to go to 220V For a high quality ferroresonant transformer, this is possible. They can often maintain regulation over a very wide range of input voltage. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 24 12:24:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 10:24:57 -0700 Subject: Ferro Resonance transformer and IBM In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DDB8779.16806.AF654E@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 May 2011 at 13:01, William Donzelli wrote: > For a high quality ferroresonant transformer, this is possible. They > can often maintain regulation over a very wide range of input voltage. However, it's not a good idea to operate ferros too far from the nameplate voltage. As you get farther away from it, efficiency (not that great to begin with) really starts dropping. If the nameplate says 240V, then that's what should be applied--and at the specified frequency--ferros are not particularly tolerant of supply frequency variations. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:31:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 13:31:12 -0400 Subject: Ferro Resonance transformer and IBM In-Reply-To: <4DDB8779.16806.AF654E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DDB8779.16806.AF654E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > However, it's not a good idea to operate ferros too far from the > nameplate voltage. ?As you get farther away from it, efficiency (not > that great to begin with) really starts dropping. I think he wants to operate it at 220 Volts eventually. -- Will From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue May 24 12:45:52 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 10:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small racks for DEC gear Message-ID: <319054.39530.qm@web65907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'd like to put my PDP 11/35 into a small rack - say a 12U, something that isnt too out of place in an office environment. This needs to be 'full size' ie having the required depth for a PDP 11, and also able to take the weight. Has anyone tried this? Most of the smaller racks I've seen tend to be for music gear, so are light weight and also not as deep as a 'full size' 19" rack. From useddec at gmail.com Tue May 24 12:58:43 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 12:58:43 -0500 Subject: Small racks for DEC gear In-Reply-To: <319054.39530.qm@web65907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <319054.39530.qm@web65907.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I believe the 11/35 came in 3 different boxes. BA11-D 10 1/2 inch tall, used also in 11/05 and 11/10, H750 ps on side BA11-F 21" I think, as used in the 11/70, H742 or H7420 ps, mounted on cab BA11-K 10 1/2 " tall, used also in 11/34, H765 ps mounted on rear. Paul On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 12:45 PM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I'd like to put my PDP 11/35 into a small rack - say a 12U, something that isnt too out of place in an office environment. This needs to be 'full size' ie having the required depth for a PDP 11, and also able to take the weight. > > Has anyone tried this? Most of the smaller racks I've seen tend to be for music gear, so are light weight and also not as deep as a 'full size' 19" rack. > From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue May 24 14:03:35 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 12:03:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Small racks for DEC gear Message-ID: <588827.80755.qm@web65909.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Paul, Mine is the BA11-K (PSU at back). It is quite a deep case so needs the full size rack, but as I'm hoping to use a relatively small SCSI drive (with the appropriate card) dont need a CAB. I'm looking for something small with casters. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue May 24 14:08:26 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:08:26 +0200 Subject: Seeking : HP 13037D - HP 9706 inter connection cables Message-ID: <003c01cc1a45$f9462090$ebd261b0$@xs4all.nl> I'm looking for the inter connection cables to connect my HP 9706 drive to the 13037D MAC controller and to the HP 2114E. I'm also looking for cables to connect the HP 7970 tape drive to the HP 2114E. In return I can offer a trade with HP equipment or some kind of a beer fee. -Rik From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 24 14:09:01 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:09:01 -0500 Subject: DEC Scrap In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201105241909.p4OJ9kXB061901@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:41 AM 5/24/2011, David Griffith wrote: >On Tue, 24 May 2011, Phil wrote: >>PS Please keep in mind that this stuff has been in a non-temp controlled storage for at least 6 years!!!! > >Geographic location? Same guy as a few days ago. Amery, Wisconsin - 90 minutes NE of the Twin Cities. - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 13:07:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:07:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <2d2663d49b08d46b463905be7af2b9eb@otter.se> from "jonas@otter.se" at May 23, 11 02:21:05 pm Message-ID: > I totally agree with you. I have no problems with French engineering at > all. I have spent a lot of my childhood and adolescence in France and I > love it. But they do like to do things their own way, so to speak ;-) > Very good engineering but usually not like anybody else's. Exactly. Unfortunately, often unconventional engineering is regarded as unreliable or poor. My experience (in many fields, cars, cameras, computers, etc) would indicate that very often the unconventional design is as reliable and as usable as the normal one provided you understand it and handle it accoridnigly. For example, if you try to repair as Prestor shutter assuming it works like a Compur you will have problems. There seem to be a lot of clueless repairmen who don't think but just follow the standard procedures, and I suspect that's where the problems stem from. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 13:17:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:17:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at May 23, 11 09:25:26 pm Message-ID: > Hi Jochen, that's a really nice haul :) > I guess you've already found Rams page at > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/. That should have all the data > sheets you need. The TRAMs with the T800 and DRAM sound like fairly > ordinary processing TRAMs. > I've never see a B420 before and I'm guessing it's quite a rare beast. I I have one, but you're right it;s not common. It's a transputer, RAM and a special vector processor chip, not a lot more > did sell some of my TRAMs a while back on ePay and they sold well - > there's a fairly strong group of collectors out there so you could > always raise some funds for PDP kit if you have no interest in them > yourself. > > James > > On 22/05/2011 19:46, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > Hi. > > > > In a recent dumpster diving session I rescued three "IMS B012" boards. > > These are "VMEbus Master Motherboards" with 16 slots for TRAMs I don;t know the B012. I assume it has some kind of host interface circuity (look for C011 or C012 chipss) and maybe some link switches (C004 chips). > > (TRAnsputer Modules). The three B012 are equiped with a total of 29 > > TRAMs. Each TRAM consists of one T800 Transputer chip and 1 MB of DRAM. > > In addition there is a single B420 Vector Processing TRAM. > > > > So, what to do with this stuff? > > > > There is a lot of documentation out there on the net. This covers > > topics like theory of operation, programming languages, libraries, ... > > but no "how to get started with real hardware" guide. I got started at an ever lower level back in 1989, startign with bare chips and wire-wrapping them. I found it a remarkably easy chip to use. On the otehr hand, I was lucky enough to have acess to a microvax with a link afapter card and all th software isntalled, so I have had to do battle with that part. > > > > I have a VME chassis to put them in. Currently this chassis houses a > > MVME68k machine running NetBSD. But as I understand the documentation > > on the B012 it uses the VME form factor, but has no real VMEbus > > interface. So my hope to use the MVME68k (or one of my Sun3 / Sun4 Ah... Are you saying that you don't ahve any form of link adapter. That is a mahor problem. I would trty to find something -- IIRC a B011 is a VME card with a transputer nad link adapter on it, there's the B004 for the ISA bus, etc. You cna then link the RRAMs together and hang it off the host card. Nomrally a transputer runs a bootstrap in internal ROM which downloads a program from the host macvhine over one of the links. It is possible to cofigure a transputer to start running a program in external ROM, and I guess it would be possible to get it to communicate with a host using a more normal serial or parallel interface (in fact the very first INMOS trapsuptr cards used in the ITEM were developped before the link adapter chips and have normal RS232 ports on them (!)). But it's not a trivial project, particualrly if you've never worked with transptuers before. My sgugestions is that you look out for some kind of host card with a link adapter on it. That will get you started. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 13:20:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:20:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <001701cc198a$98501c70$c8f05550$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at May 23, 11 10:47:07 pm Message-ID: > > > I'm having the same problems getting M5 for my Citroen DS from > > > 1967...when > > > > I've not looked, can you still get the tap and die in the right pitch? > > Yes, through a specialized firm, Citrotech www.citrotech.nl > They also rebuild and remanufacture hydraulic components for classic > Citroens. If that's M5*0.9mm pitch, the tap and die are available in the UK. For example Chronos list them. Be warned that soem of the suppliers over here have somewhat crazy ways of lisitng these tools. OFten 'Metric Coarse' means the stnadard one (for example M3 * 0.5). 'Metric Fine' includes eveythings (in this case both M3*0.45 which is the real 'fine' one and M3*0.6 which is coarser than the normal one. Go figure). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 14:15:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:15:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: <4DDA6E6E.3018.121FA40@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at May 23, 11 02:25:50 pm Message-ID: > There are some application-specific wierdnesses too. For example, > tacquets on US-made piston valvesets for musical instruments are 3- > 48. Fortunately, I do have a set of taps and a die for that > thread. Actually, my thread tables claim that 3-48 UNC is a normal thread (well, as 'normal' as any of the odd-numbered ones). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue May 24 14:49:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:49:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT : M3*0.6mm pitch screws In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at May 24, 11 09:51:45 am Message-ID: > ??? 5-40, 3-48 etc. are all perfectly "normal" sizes (any decent hardware s= > tore will have them, although I wouldn't place any bets on finding the odd = > numbers at say Home Depot) You would not get them in the UK at all easily. Hardware shops over here stock the stnadard metric nuts and bolts and if you;re lucky, BA ones too. > > And Tony, maybe instead of calling it a 6-32 you would have better luck in = > the UK asking for a "computer case screw." Actually, yes.. I was amaazed that Maplin (a common high-street electronics shop over here) sold 4-40 and 6-32 scrws as part of their PC assembnly accessories. Alas only in one length (about 1/4" long), but still worth adding to my hardware stock. Incidnetnally, I have no idea if a 5-40 UNC scrww would fit this telephone, but a 4-40 sort-of does. It will screw in badly and hold. But I know it's wrong, so I am not going to do that. I am resigned ot making my own now... > > The demise of "decent hardware stores" is perhaps a different thread. The last good tool shop in London went out of business last year. It didn't sell hardare (no bolts/screws/etc), just tools, but they had an amazign range of those. Oh well.... And there's nowhere in London that I know of where you can buy small quantities of metal (as in 30cm of brass rod or whatever). [By 'London' I do not mena the City of London. I mean Greater London. Or to be more precise, I mean any place I can get to on a London omnibus without [aying any extra fare.] Nobody makes thigns any more :-( -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 24 15:25:08 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:25:08 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> References: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Mon, 23 May 2011 21:25:26 +0100 James Wilson wrote: > Hi Jochen, that's a really nice haul :) Yes. I know what Transputers are and that they are very, _very_, _*very*_ rare. Really rare, not in the ePay sense "rare". The bigger was my surprise to find this stuff in a dumpster. > I guess you've already found Rams page at > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/. ... and a few other pages as well. > That should have all the data sheets you need. The problem is: Datasheets don't tell me _what_ I can do with this stuff and how to do it. Datasheets cover a lot of small details. I am missing the "big picture" that gives me an overview. > I did sell some of my TRAMs a while back on ePay and they sold well - I am no friend of ePay. Ideally I would like to trade this stuff for something I can make a use out of. If I sell it, I would like to prefere people who actually use this stuff. I can't make this selection on ePay. > there's a fairly strong group of collectors out there so you could > always raise some funds for PDP kit if you have no interest in them > yourself. I am not interrested in squeezeing as much EUR out of this stuff as I can. I got it for free. If I know it is going to someone who actually uses this stuff I may sell it for a more symbolic price. Ahh, other hardware of interrest would be a SGI Fuel or a VPro grafics and R14k CPU for my Octane. Or an Onyx 3500. ;-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 24 16:17:57 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:17:57 -0600 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> Message-ID: Wow, how'd you even find that? A search for "univac" turned up nothing from dovebid. I have given up on them because there's no way to setup search notifications and the interesting things show up far too infrequently anymore for it to be worth a manual drill-down. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 24 16:18:40 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:18:40 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> On 05/24/2011 12:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/24/11 12:10 PM, allison wrote: >>>>> With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it >>>>> would >>>>> not do much. >>>> >>>> Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) >>> >>> Now those are fighting words... I find v5.4 and higher to be very >>> capable. >> >> Dave, >> >> Huh? Well, maybe from the quadcore terabyte Internet connected 3dHD >> graphics >> point of view. > > No, from a connect-ten-terminals-and-a-few-modems point of view. > >> So RT11V5..useless no, not at all. > > I never said it was. I just said it doesn't do much, which is true. > It's a bit more capable than CP/M. Wonderful and fantastic for > single-user, single-terminal work...but that's about it. > We are never going to argue there! > My only experience with PDP-11 systems in production at work years > ago was multitasking, multiuser applications, so that's where my > interests lie. For single-user, single-tasking stuff, I'm a CP/M guy. > I did both single user applications oriented and as you describe multi everything. Oddly often the same hardware just different OS. > That said, I do use RT11 quite a bit, but my primary PDP-11-related > interests lie with the "bigger" OSs and system configurations. > I can appreciate that. But I was doing the PC when the PC was still a wannabe. RT11FB or XM gave me a lot more than DOS. but a lot smaller (then) then VMS and the machines it ran on. > This is a matter of point of view, yes...but from a RSTS/E and > RSX-11M point of view, not a "quadcore terabyte Interet connected > 3dHD" point of view. You should know me better than that by now. > ;) leg pulled, yes! Dave, I could not resist! My comments were as much for those that have no idea, where their life didn't exist pre I386 or winders. computing as we knew it took a big change in the early 90s. My other favorites was VMS and RSTS and RSX and even a fun little OS called Ultrix. Allison > -Dave > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue May 24 16:29:18 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:29:18 +0200 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 May 2011 21:44:21 +0100 "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? I am very happy with my HP 1740A. (100 MHz, dual channel.) There is a storage tube variant 1741A. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From shumaker at att.net Tue May 24 16:33:05 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:33:05 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> Message-ID: <4DDC2411.2050403@att.net> pure chance: I was looking at the oscope lots and noticed the front panel display in the image as I was clicking through the items steve On 5/24/2011 2:17 PM, Richard wrote: > Wow, how'd you even find that? A search for "univac" turned up > nothing from dovebid. I have given up on them because there's no way > to setup search notifications and the interesting things show up far > too infrequently anymore for it to be worth a manual drill-down. > From ploopster at gmail.com Tue May 24 16:36:09 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:36:09 -0400 Subject: Genuine gonkulator cable In-Reply-To: References: <201105240239.p4O2dc2e012184@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DDC24C9.5020008@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Mon, 23 May 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> If anyone's looking for a gonkulator cable for your DEC VAX, check out >>> Ebay auction number 200609594604 >> >> Those catch rabbits, don't they? > > Ducks! Shall I gonk you now, or shall I gonk you later? Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 24 16:39:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:39:00 -0400 Subject: Genuine gonkulator cable In-Reply-To: <4DDC24C9.5020008@gmail.com> References: <201105240239.p4O2dc2e012184@floodgap.com> <4DDC24C9.5020008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DDC2574.2010206@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 5:36 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> If anyone's looking for a gonkulator cable for your DEC VAX, check out >>>> Ebay auction number 200609594604 >>> >>> Those catch rabbits, don't they? >> >> Ducks! > > Shall I gonk you now, or shall I gonk you later? Don't bend over, he'll gonk you! Sooner or later! ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Tue May 24 16:42:46 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:42:46 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, Jochen Kunz writes: > > That should have all the data sheets you need. > The problem is: Datasheets don't tell me _what_ I can do with this > stuff and how to do it. Datasheets cover a lot of small details. I am > missing the "big picture" that gives me an overview. Think MIMD parallel processing (multiple instruction, multiple data) with connectivity determined by the topology of the link network. Since each transputer comes with 4 links, most people did a toroidal mesh. You could add more link chips and make a hypercube, but most people just used what was on-chip without adding additional link fabric interconnect. What you do at that point is up to what algorithms you can efficiently map to the network of CPUs. People used Occam (a variation of Tony Hoare's CSP, Communicating Sequential Processes) or C to program the transputer. Occam has some basic primitives to support reliable parallel processing. I think if you programmed it in C, you could call out to a runtime library that implemented these primitives, or you had to manage it yourself, I can't remember which. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 24 16:49:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:49:31 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 5:18 PM, allison wrote: >> My only experience with PDP-11 systems in production at work years ago >> was multitasking, multiuser applications, so that's where my interests >> lie. For single-user, single-tasking stuff, I'm a CP/M guy. > > I did both single user applications oriented and as you describe multi > everything. Oddly often the same hardware just different OS. I love that flexibility of the PDP-11 family. >> That said, I do use RT11 quite a bit, but my primary PDP-11-related >> interests lie with the "bigger" OSs and system configurations. > > I can appreciate that. But I was doing the PC when the PC was still a > wannabe. RT11FB or XM gave me > a lot more than DOS. but a lot smaller (then) then VMS and the machines > it ran on. I never did much PC stuff. I worked as a DOS apps developer (in assembler, C, and Clipper, which is a dBase compiler) for a while, and had a DOS machine at home. This was when 286/16 machines were current and 286/20 and early 386/16 motherboards started appearing. I still had the PDP-11 at home and used it, and later a MicroVAX, as my main machine. My PC was primarily a terminal and a data-interchange machine for the PDP-11 and (later) the VAX. >> This is a matter of point of view, yes...but from a RSTS/E and RSX-11M >> point of view, not a "quadcore terabyte Interet connected 3dHD" point >> of view. You should know me better than that by now. > > ;) leg pulled, yes! Dave, I could not resist! I'll get you for that! ;) > My comments were as much for those that have no idea, where their life > didn't exist pre I386 or winders. > computing as we knew it took a big change in the early 90s. Indeed, that would not be me. ;) I used PDP-11s at work (Princeton University) at an after-school job that went full time after graduation, then I became a commercial VMS sysadmin for a gaggle of MicroVAX-IIs, IIIs, and an 11/750 at a Defense-related facility. My first home computer was briefly an Atari 800, followed by an S-100 CP/M machine, followed a few months later by...you guessed it, a PDP-11/34, running RSX-11M v4.1 and later RSTS/E v9.4. I ran the CP/M machine and the PDP-11 together for a long time. After that, I got a VAXstation-II/GPX and ran Ultrix as my main platform. I sold the PDP-11/34 (but now have more) and I still have the S-100 system. I retired the VAXstation-II/GPX and moved to a Sun-3/50, then a Sun-4/110, then a SPARCstation-1+, then an -IPX, all running SunOS 4, then a string of SGI machines running IRIX, then MacOS X on the desktop and Solaris on UltraSPARC in the datacenter, which is where I am now, and will be for the foreseeable future. I don't mind that a lot of people here never used these machines before they started "collecting" them because they're "vintage". However I DO become irritated when those people assume that everyone here is in the same boat and only recently saw their first PDP-11. I'm guessing that irritates you as well. > My other favorites was VMS and RSTS and RSX and even a fun little OS > called Ultrix. I still love Ultrix. I ran it as my main desktop OS (the aforementioned VAXstation-II/GPX, four-plane VCB02 running in grayscale mode) for a long time. It's a bit quirky compatibility-wise, but it's a rock-solid OS. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 24 16:55:32 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 16:55:32 -0500 Subject: 9-track Tapes gotta go In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, I still have an office full of magnetic tapes that I need to get rid of. If you need some, let me know. I'll box and mail to you if you are willing to pay postage. I'll put the rest on eBay and/or VCM soon if I can't give them away here, and if that doesn't do it, I'll (sadly) trash them. The tapes are reel-to-reel, mostly 10" full-size reels (~2500 feet of tape) but some smaller. Mostly 800 bits/inch, but some 1600. Some Black Watch, many other brands. All are used; the data on them is not proprietary or secret (a lot is UARS satellite data) but I don't know generally what it is or what format it's in. Most reels include the white surround clips with hooks to hang on racks. The tapes are in pretty good-appearing shape, and were stored in climate-controlled storage since new (I believe). Shipping will be from San Antonio, TX, area code 78254. Pick-ups welcome. Please respond by email here, and tell me what you want. I can't be much more specific than "soon" about when I'll start to auction or trash, so promptness would be good (but tardiness probably won't cost you much, if you are willing to prowl auction sites for them). -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 24 17:24:51 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:24:51 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 2:29 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation > > On Sun, 22 May 2011 21:44:21 +0100 > "Rob Jarratt" wrote: > > > Does anyone have any recommendations for what to buy? > I am very happy with my HP 1740A. (100 MHz, dual channel.) > There is a storage tube variant 1741A. > -- > I have one of each. Unfortunately my 1741A has developed a horizontal deflection problem, but the 1740 works just fine (except for a dirty switch I need to clean). For the sort of stuff we do, a 100MHz delayed-trigger dual trace scope is pretty much the bomb. The 174x scopes are IMHO a great example of the genre. Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old Tektronix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend locally. Mmmm, vacuum tubes.... Turn on the scope, go get a beer while it warms up, measure and test with confidence. -- Ian From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue May 24 17:25:34 2011 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:25:34 +0100 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDC305E.2070507@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t know the B012. I assume it has some kind of host interface I don't think it does; I think you'll need a host interface of some sort. > circuity (look for C011 or C012 chipss) and maybe some link switches > (C004 chips). C011 or C012 chips are "link adaptors" that convert a parallel CPU bus to the serial transputer link system. C004 chips are crossbar switches for transputer links. > Ah... Are you saying that you don't ahve any form of link adapter. That > is a mahor problem. I would trty to find something -- IIRC a B011 is a > VME card with a transputer nad link adapter on it, there's the B004 for > the ISA bus, etc. You cna then link the RRAMs together and hang it off > the host card. B004 or B008 are host interfaces for ISA bus. B012 and B014 are host interfaces for VME (typically Sun VME). B016 is a fast shared-memory VME board that can be used as a quad host interface. There are some others, of which the numbers escape me, but I can look them up if needed. One of them is for the NEC PC-98. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue May 24 17:42:12 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:42:12 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, allison wrote: >> ?I never said it was. ?I just said it doesn't do much, which is true. >> ?It's a bit more capable than CP/M. ?Wonderful and fantastic for >> single-user, single-terminal work...but that's about it. >> > We are never going to argue there! I feel fortunate that for a year or so, I made my living writing application and graphics code on RT-11. There probably aren't many people under 50 now who had the chance for that experience. It was a joy to code on, and 99% of what I did was in MACRO-11. > I can appreciate that. ?But I was doing the PC when the PC was still a > wannabe. ?RT11FB or XM gave me > a lot more than DOS... The other guys at my shop at the time were coding in Turbo Pascal on Everex PC-AT clones. I did not envy them. > My other favorites was VMS and RSTS and RSX and even a fun little OS called > Ultrix. I encountered VMS first, then UNIX (4BSD), then Ultrix, then RT-11 - all within a couple of years. Dabbled with RSTS and RSX, but never enough to get good at them. Great times! -ethan From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 24 17:53:25 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:53:25 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 2:50 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/03 > [snip] > My PC was primarily a terminal and a data-interchange machine > for the PDP-11 and (later) the VAX. > ...which, according to many items I've read, was IBM's original intention for the PC - except that you were supposed to be connecting to an IBM mainframe, not a DEC mini! :-) -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue May 24 17:55:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 18:55:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDC375B.4000203@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 6:53 PM, Ian King wrote: >> My PC was primarily a terminal and a data-interchange machine >> for the PDP-11 and (later) the VAX. > > ...which, according to many items I've read, was IBM's original intention for the PC - except that you were supposed to be connecting to an IBM mainframe, not a DEC mini! :-) -- Ian Oh, wouldn't they be pissed! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Tue May 24 17:58:10 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 15:58:10 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDC375B.4000203@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> <4DDC375B.4000203@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 3:55 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: PDP-11/03 > > On 5/24/11 6:53 PM, Ian King wrote: > >> My PC was primarily a terminal and a data-interchange machine > >> for the PDP-11 and (later) the VAX. > > > > ...which, according to many items I've read, was IBM's original > intention for the PC - except that you were supposed to be connecting > to an IBM mainframe, not a DEC mini! :-) -- Ian > > Oh, wouldn't they be pissed! ;) > > -Dave From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 24 18:16:43 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:16:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDC3C5B.606@verizon.net> On 05/24/2011 06:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 4:18 PM, allison wrote: >>> I never said it was. I just said it doesn't do much, which is true. >>> It's a bit more capable than CP/M. Wonderful and fantastic for >>> single-user, single-terminal work...but that's about it. >>> >> We are never going to argue there! > I feel fortunate that for a year or so, I made my living writing > application and graphics code on RT-11. There probably aren't many > people under 50 now who had the chance for that experience. It was a > joy to code on, and 99% of what I did was in MACRO-11. > I've used MACRO-11 and when I started using C I had that dang it it looks like macro moment. >> I can appreciate that. But I was doing the PC when the PC was still a >> wannabe. RT11FB or XM gave me >> a lot more than DOS... > The other guys at my shop at the time were coding in Turbo Pascal on > Everex PC-AT clones. I did not envy them. > I've only used two PC software tools, Turbo Pascal and QB4, both were ok. these days PCs run linux and its' C or LUA I stopped doing webby stuff years ago (coldfusion, HTML, Paradox and MySQL). >> My other favorites was VMS and RSTS and RSX and even a fun little OS called >> Ultrix. > I encountered VMS first, then UNIX (4BSD), then Ultrix, then RT-11 - > all within a couple of years. Dabbled with RSTS and RSX, but never > enough to get good at them. Great times! > I have V4.2 install and a uVax2000 running V4.1 Ultrix, fun little box. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue May 24 18:45:42 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 19:45:42 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDC4326.7060100@verizon.net> On 05/24/2011 05:49 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/24/11 5:18 PM, allison wrote: >>> My only experience with PDP-11 systems in production at work years ago >>> was multitasking, multiuser applications, so that's where my interests >>> lie. For single-user, single-tasking stuff, I'm a CP/M guy. >> >> I did both single user applications oriented and as you describe multi >> everything. Oddly often the same hardware just different OS. > > I love that flexibility of the PDP-11 family. > >>> That said, I do use RT11 quite a bit, but my primary PDP-11-related >>> interests lie with the "bigger" OSs and system configurations. >> >> I can appreciate that. But I was doing the PC when the PC was still a >> wannabe. RT11FB or XM gave me >> a lot more than DOS. but a lot smaller (then) then VMS and the machines >> it ran on. > > I never did much PC stuff. I worked as a DOS apps developer (in > assembler, C, and Clipper, which is a dBase compiler) for a while, and > had a DOS machine at home. This was when 286/16 machines were current > and 286/20 and early 386/16 motherboards started appearing. I still > had the PDP-11 at home and used it, and later a MicroVAX, as my main > machine. My PC was primarily a terminal and a data-interchange > machine for the PDP-11 and (later) the VAX. > Clipper theres a name I'd forgotten, Use a lot of Dbase and Paradox. But by then the machine were 486/66 minimum. >>> This is a matter of point of view, yes...but from a RSTS/E and RSX-11M >>> point of view, not a "quadcore terabyte Interet connected 3dHD" point >>> of view. You should know me better than that by now. >> >> ;) leg pulled, yes! Dave, I could not resist! > > I'll get you for that! ;) Ok, I buy the beer. > >> My comments were as much for those that have no idea, where their life >> didn't exist pre I386 or winders. >> computing as we knew it took a big change in the early 90s. > > Indeed, that would not be me. ;) I used PDP-11s at work (Princeton > University) at an after-school job that went full time after > graduation, then I became a commercial VMS sysadmin for a gaggle of > MicroVAX-IIs, IIIs, and an 11/750 at a Defense-related facility. > I progressed though PDP-8, PDP10(tops10), 8008, CM2100 (16bit), 8080/Z80 Pre-cpm and post, LSI-11 and 11/34, VAX then PCs around 91ish. Now I play with BlackFin and ARM and PICs to PIC24. During the 1974-81 window I got to work with about every major micro (8080, 8085, z80, 8088, 8086, 8048/51, 1802, 6502, 6800, TI9900, SC/MP) and bucket load of 4bitters. After all of them If I can hide the hardware behind the compiler or IDE I do. Some are just ugly hardware. > My first home computer was briefly an Atari 800, followed by an > S-100 CP/M machine, followed a few months later by...you guessed it, a > PDP-11/34, running RSX-11M v4.1 and later RSTS/E v9.4. I ran the CP/M > machine and the PDP-11 together for a long time. > > After that, I got a VAXstation-II/GPX and ran Ultrix as my main > platform. I sold the PDP-11/34 (but now have more) and I still have > the S-100 system. > CP/M still use it and have many machines running it though the Kaypro4/84, AmproLB+, and my souped up NS* s100 crate with 10mhz z80. I also built a machine using Z280/12.5mhz (jrev) using ISA-16 bus boards. Also have Dave Dunfields NS* emulator and MyZ80 in use. > I retired the VAXstation-II/GPX and moved to a Sun-3/50, then a > Sun-4/110, then a SPARCstation-1+, then an -IPX, all running SunOS 4, > then a string of SGI machines running IRIX, then MacOS X on the > desktop and Solaris on UltraSPARC in the datacenter, which is where I > am now, and will be for the foreseeable future. > I added a bunch of uVAX3100s includign two M76/gpx. When they are all running I have a 10way LAVC. Oh and one really big electric bill. > I don't mind that a lot of people here never used these machines > before they started "collecting" them because they're "vintage". > However I DO become irritated when those people assume that everyone > here is in the same boat and only recently saw their first PDP-11. Same for many of the oldies especially the early S100 boxen. My all time favorite was an email asking the details of the NS* Horizon rom BIOS. As in "Doesn't it have a bios like a PC?". > I'm guessing that irritates you as well. > It does. Bugs me more that with all the docs on the net the Microcomputer Handbook is not read cover to cover as it not only tells a outline of the DEC 11 story it details enough of the Qbus machine it's boards and various bits to seriously understand it and it's OSs. >> My other favorites was VMS and RSTS and RSX and even a fun little OS >> called Ultrix. > > I still love Ultrix. I ran it as my main desktop OS (the > aforementioned VAXstation-II/GPX, four-plane VCB02 running in > grayscale mode) for a long time. It's a bit quirky > compatibility-wise, but it's a rock-solid OS. > I have one like that only running VMS5.4-4. the uVAX2000 run ultrix but only with terminal due to monitor (the tube) space limitations in the room. All my 11s are Qbus as they are smaller and easier to keep going with a supply of boards and prints. My sentimental favorite is the 50in corporate rack thats now a 11/73 but was the 11/23 that followed me around DEC. It's going on 27 years since I booted it from loose parts in the lab (fall of 83). It's older than some people I work with! Allison > -Dave > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue May 24 19:07:46 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 17:07:46 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBD85E.8070802@verizon.net> <4DDBDCD5.3090001@neurotica.com> <4DDC20B0.8040709@verizon.net> <4DDC27EB.2020208@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 3:53 PM -0700 5/24/11, Ian King wrote: > > My PC was primarily a terminal and a data-interchange machine > > for the PDP-11 and (later) the VAX. > >...which, according to many items I've read, was IBM's original >intention for the PC - except that you were supposed to be >connecting to an IBM mainframe, not a DEC mini! :-) -- Ian Oddly enough my first experience using *true* IBM PC's was to connect to a Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe running GCOS-8. In fact other than using a Mac to play a couple Infocom games, that was my first experience to a Mac as well... Technically my first experience with UNIX as well since the Mac was running A/UX. Much nicer in both cases than the ancient Honeywell terminals we had. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue May 24 20:59:55 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:59:55 -0500 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDC629B.8080406@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: >> That should have all the data sheets you need. > The problem is: Datasheets don't tell me _what_ I can do with this > stuff and how to do it. Datasheets cover a lot of small details. I am > missing the "big picture" that gives me an overview. ISTR there was a raytracer running on the one that we had at UKC. They had a reasonable repository of transputer stuff which seems to still be around these days at: http://wotug.org/parallel (I see there's a version of POV there) cheers Jules From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue May 24 22:45:12 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 20:45:12 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 2011 May 24, at 3:24 PM, Ian King wrote: > > Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old > Tektronix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend > locally. Mmmm, vacuum tubes.... Turn on the scope, go get a beer > while it warms up, measure and test with confidence. -- Ian Our radio museum here has several old 500-series tek scopes that I'd love to refurbish and get working. There's a 4-channel plug-in in one of them, too. Size, maintenance and fan noise might make them not-so-great for regular use but it would be nice to be able to use them on occasion. I loved the crispness of the trace and the blue tint of the phosphor in the CRTs of that series. I wonder why Tek didn't continue using that phosphor. From jonas at otter.se Tue May 24 03:58:30 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 10:58:30 +0200 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The guidance I have had is that for a PSU an analogue 'scope is fine. > For > logic then a logic analyser is what you need. Are you talking about > some > other category of hardware? > > Regards > > Rob > IMO, keep it simple for the moment. If you are not used to using a 'scope and you are only intending to repair your PSU at the moment, stay with an analogue dual-beam 'scope with a bandwidth of 20 MHz or so. There are excellent ones available cheap on eBay or other places. Philips, Gould, Hameg or Kenwood made decent 'scopes. It will also do fine for audio and even some video work, should the need arise. Learn to use that, then if you really think you need something better, replace it. Tektronix 465 is a lovely 'scope but IMO overkill for what you need at the moment. OTOH, if you anticipate getting deeper into repairing stuff, by all means get a Tex 465, 475. HP 180 'scopes are nice too. /Jonas From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue May 24 09:30:56 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 10:30:56 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> Message-ID: Ooh, I like the BA11VA chassis, it's quite "cute" in it's compactness. Though, I'm more partial to the VT-103 -- which I'm still trying to get from the person who I know has one -- mostly becuase it's a QBUS '11 in a VT-100 with real TU58 mounted under the CRT (or at least it was an option to have the TU58, I think; I'm not sure, I have to go check the BitSavers documentation again). My 11/23 is currently in a PDP-11/03L chassis (9-slot, quad-width, Q18/CD backplane). Interms of cards in it the system, I have an 11/23 CPU (with MMU, no FPP, or CIS), 256KB RAM made by a tird-party, DLVJ-1 quad-SLU, RQDX3, M9058 distributor board for the RQDX3 and the BDV11-YA 18-bit bootstrap/diagnotics/terminator board. It's currently hooked up to my spare PC, which provides both the terminal, and TU58 emulation to the system. I currently have the system booting RT-11FB; I'd rather boot RT-11XM, but I'm having difficulty modifying the DDX.SYS driver. Right now I'm looking for disks and diskettes for my system... as well as generally improving the system. (I'd like to go to Q22 serpentine, and an 11/73 with enough RAM and disk to run 2.11 BSD; but that might be slightly difficult given my lack of money, and in-)ability to go and get anything.) Your luggable 11/23 sounds pretty neat. Do you have any photos of it? Cheers to you, -- Christian On 22 May 2011 18:19, allison wrote: > On 05/22/2011 04:50 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it. >> >> But yes, an RT-11 build for the TU58 uses the DD.SYS driver. Though, >> building it for an oversize TU58 image is the same, just with the >> modified driver replacing the "plain, vanilla" DD.SYS. (You can get >> the modified driver onto a disk image on your PC via PUTR. You can >> even skip using an emulator altogether and just build images in PUTR.) >> >> I've used PDP-11 sims for a while, mostly because I've only *JUST* got >> my hands on a real PDP-11 (11/23 w/256KB RAM, DLVJ-1, and RQDX3); >> though I'm relying on the oversized TU58 images as my disk media as I >> have no real disks unfortunately. (So the RL02 sized TU58 images, >> though slightly slow, provide me an actual usable RT-11 environment >> (I've DECUS C and the RT-11 BASIC on my system "tape" while the second >> TU58 is my data "tape").) I'm also negotiating for a VT-103 as well. >> > My collection includes a few real TU58s working. ?My fun 11 that is the most > portable one is: > > BA11VA > 11/23 > 512K ram > DLV11J > MRV21 (holds a boot for tu58) > > I run RT11XM on it and the first boot cycle load the base image and then > inits > VM: and then copies the system to it and boots VM. ?After that the system is > fairly useful as most mundane tasks do not hit the tape. ?It ends up with > about > half of the 512K as virtual disk and XM running in the other half. ?I do > this ?on > the larger systems running RX02 or RX50 with 2mb ram installed and that > really > is nicer. > > FYI: for those that have Qbus 11s disks are possible, you need a RQDX1/2/3, > cables > and the module from the BA123 (or BA23) to break the 50wide cable to MFM > hard > disk AND 34pin floppy (RX50, RX33). ?If you can't find a RX50 or RX33 then > hunt > down anything 5.25" 80track that can be jumpered to work like a TEAC > FD55GFR. > the preferred distribution board is the one out of the BA123 as it supports > more > of a given media and different possible media. ?the bridge baord requires > power > but if need be it can be hand wired if the backplane lacks room. > > Generally RQDX controllers are easy to find but most people bemoan the lack > of > MFM hard disks. ?But for a floppy only system it can be setup for two RX50 > or > two RX33s or two RX23s. ?RT11 supports MSCP controllers of all versions. > > The preferred controller is the later versions of RQDX3 as the late firmware > will also > run 3.5" 800k (RX23/22) which uses bacially PC compatable 3.5" media and it > also > supports the RX33 drive at both 400K side and 1.6MB side. ?Even without the > late > firmware Most dial denity 3.5" drives are supportable at the lower density > of 400K > single sided (same as RX50). ?For that you that do this will have to use a > PC to > format media or a mVAX2000 or for those that have it X11 diagnostics. > > I've taken a 11/23 (m8186), ?4 M8059 (1MB of ram total), MRV21 rom card, > DRV11J M8043, RQDX3/distribution into a 12 slot dual wide cage and with > a DEC BA11 supply (RTC, ?Bevent-L, and reset support via standard 3 switch > panel) into a finished plywood box with two RX33s as a lugable and useful > system. The terminal is laptop with minicom or a real VT320 ?It's light and > runs RTXM nicely. > > Before any one gets upset with that apparent abomination it's built with > excess spares for the other six Qbus 11s from LSI11 through 11/73. ?No > Qbus 11s were executed to build it. ?Of all my Qbus-11s it's the handiest > as by PDP11 standards its very portable. > > > Allison > > > > >> >> >> On 22 May 2011 09:06, allison ?wrote: >>> >>> On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>>> >>>> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >>>>> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). >>>> >>>> I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle with >>>> a command that would definitely not work as intended. >>>> >>>>> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >>>>> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >>>>> blocks on the real media. >>>> >>>> Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as >>>> RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and >>>> then transfered to the target system? >>>> >>>> Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of >>>> rotating media/disk images and not tape images. ?What is the right >>>> way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? >>>> >>>> Thanks. >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>> Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools >>> and source files to build a tape image. >>> >>> NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device on >>> the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just >>> slower. >>> That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very >>> different from TU58. >>> >>> So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02 >>> save for the DD driver is used instead. >>> >>> I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing >>> and many of them. >>> >>> >>> >>> Allison >>> >>> >>> >>> > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Tue May 24 10:03:39 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:03:39 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> Message-ID: In terms of hardware on the PC side of things, all one needs is a serial port. The software I use (which I'm sure I linked; if not find it here: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/ ) I currently run on my Windows XP Pro SP3 system; it's also been tested under Windows 2000 and Windows 2003 Server Standard by me), with the oversized images. The PC side of the cable is a nine-pin serial port, while the PDP-11 side is the 10-pin cable. The cable I use, has one side as the DLVJ1 connection (10-pin IDC, tab scraped off) and he other side as a DE9M D-sub connector (i.e. the "PC serial port" connector, wired as a DTE). The conenction between the systems is then made with a standard serial null modem cable (I had a couple so I just used a that). (Plus wiring the serial port on the '11 side of things as a DTE is the correct way.) The cable is wired as such: http://upload.cetafurs.com/dlvj1-de9m.png Connect the DE9M serial port to a regular PC serial port via a null modem. The DLVJ1 port should be configured for either 38400 or 9600 bps. Cheers to you, and if you've any questions, feel free to ask. -- Christian On 22 May 2011 21:38, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > >> As an idea to get RT-11 onto your RL01; why not try using a TU58 >> emulator, with oversized tape images? There's a modified driver file >> out there - very easy to find too - that'll let you have RT-11 think >> the DECtape II tapes are the size of an RL02, which will let you boot >> the RT-11 V5.3 installation pack on the emulator. From there, just >> install RT-11 to the real RL01 as you would normally install RT-11. >> >> It's simple to setup (and if you don't want to fiddle around with disk >> images, asking will get you one from me or whoever else has done it >> this way), and all you need on the PDP-11 side of things is a second >> serial line. Also, it's relatively painless, as the RT-11 install >> isn't all that difficult. >> > > I understand what is required on the PDP-11 side of a TU-58 emulator since > I have a real DEC dual external TU-58 drive that I am able to use with real > TU-58 tapes. > > What I am curious about is the specific hardware required for the TU-58 > emulator? ?I assume that a serial port is required? ?Is the TU-58 emulator > able to run under Windows XP or must DOS be used? ?Or perhaps an > OS in-between such as Windows 98 SE? > > In addition, my TU-58 drive uses a standard 10 pin cable with a standard > 10 pin female connector on both ends - the CPU end plugs directly into > the DLV11-J port. ?What does the end of the 10 pin cable look like at the > TU-58 emulator? > > I used to have a site that I could download to obtain the software for the > TU-58 emulator. ?Can you please provide a link address? > > Jerome Fine > From pinball at telus.net Tue May 24 11:10:17 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:10:17 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DD9C9AA.7050002@telus.net> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <4DD99E79.60708@brouhaha.com> <4DD9C9AA.7050002@telus.net> Message-ID: <4DDBD869.6000100@telus.net> John Robertson wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> Rob Jarratt wrote: >> > I find myself in need of an oscilloscope to help me fix my PDP11 >> PSU (I am >> >> If you'll settle for a used analog scope, you might look for a >> Tektronix 465, which was a very good two-channel 100 MHz scope. >> >> I've never been happy with any of the cheap digital scopes. The good >> digital scopes tend to be rather pricey, even used. >> >> >> > You can also get the digital-to-analog scope storage converters from > eBay or other sources. I have one at the shop that I bought a few > years ago - think it was made by B&K - and it interfaces between the > signal and the scope and will store up to several seconds or more > depending on the clock rate (AIR). > > I can check on Tuesday if you can't find a reference to the device > before then... > > John :-#)# > OK, the device was made by B&K and is a model 2501 Digital Storage Adapter. Two channels, from 20us up to 40 sec. time/div, and from 5mv to 5V/div amplitude. I've got a Tek 465 and have only used the 2501 once, but then I'm not fixing old computers usually, rather we service microprocessor controlled arcade games... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From les at frii.com Tue May 24 12:24:24 2011 From: les at frii.com (les at frii.com) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 11:24:24 -0600 Subject: 844.8 KHz crystal on DEC board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Colorado Crystal would make one for you, don't know much that would cost. http://www.coloradocrystal.com/ Les > On 5/23/2011 6:50 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: >> got any odd XT searial cards theres a potential for there being one on them >> i have been told >> > > > Good idea but no luck so far, all of the old serial cards I could find > have an 18.432 MHz oscillator. > > I remember seeing many more Apple II's connected to Teletypes than PC's > so I'll check old Apple serial cards next. > From steerex at ccvn.com Tue May 24 20:16:20 2011 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 21:16:20 -0400 Subject: Augat boards on eBay References: <295722.30865.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000d01cc1a79$5bd25de0$0a01a8c0@win2k> I've got a bunch that are similar. I'd let them go for half that price. If anyone is interested, let me know. SteveRob ----- Original Message ----- From: "William Maddox" To: Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 5:25 AM Subject: Augat boards on eBay > This fellow has multiple units of NOS Augat wire-wrap boards for $29.95 each. > Seems like a good price given what the gold scrappers are paying these days, > which is where they will likely end up if some vintage homebrew hobbyists > don't snap them up... > > Item # 250823044454 > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Mupac-TLR8922-Proto-Board-Gold-Recovery-/250823044454?pt =BI_Electrical_Equipment_Tools&hash=item3a6637ed66&vil=1 > > > --Bill > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed May 25 00:11:57 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:11:57 -0600 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DDC8F9D.6080003@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/24/2011 9:03 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > In terms of hardware on the PC side of things, all one needs is a > serial port. The software I use (which I'm sure I linked; if not find > it here: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/ ) I currently > run on my Windows XP Pro SP3 system; it's also been tested under > Windows 2000 and Windows 2003 Server Standard by me), with the > oversized images. > > The PC side of the cable is a nine-pin serial port, while the PDP-11 > side is the 10-pin cable. The cable I use, has one side as the DLVJ1 > connection (10-pin IDC, tab scraped off) and he other side as a DE9M > D-sub connector (i.e. the "PC serial port" connector, wired as a DTE). > The conenction between the systems is then made with a standard serial > null modem cable (I had a couple so I just used a that). (Plus wiring > the serial port on the '11 side of things as a DTE is the correct > way.) Since serial ports are not many new machines,have you tried it with a USB serial converter? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 25 00:26:24 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:24 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , Message-ID: Hi I thought I should note that I've used high speed sampling scopes several times but that was mostly with a 1GHz+ CPU and an expensive low loading FET probe. I've only used a logic analyzer twice in 30+ years of fixing all kinds of electronics. I find them time consuming and not much good for general debugging. In order to use one right, you need to have a rough idea as to what is wrong. By that time, I have been able to narrow it down, that far, I can quickly trace it with a normal scope. Not saying there were not times I needed a logic analyzer, it just that when I did use it, I knew what I was up against. Both times, it was related to tracing down a design bug and not just a bad part. I do beleive that if you are going to get an analog scope, there is no reason not to get a 100MHz one. They are not that much more expensive than a 50 or 20MHz one and there is no penalty in using one. I also recommend one with a delayed trace. As you get better you'll find it quite useful. I should also admit that I do use a DSO for analog work. I have an old Nicolet with a maximum sample rate of 2MHz. I use it because it has a 12 bit A/D and dual chanel. I use it for two reasons. Just right for my analog computer setups. One is that is has infinite persistance if I want and I can digitally increase the gain by 64X and watch for small amounts of drift when setting up intergrators. Something that would be difficult to do with either an analog scope or a regular 8 bit sample. Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 00:50:23 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:50:23 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: Ran across this while searching for some tek stuff. Fellow has the boards from the first version of the Minuteman guidance computer (Autonetics D17B, late 50s, discrete transistor) laid out as wall art in his living room. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ODi7qSpYg Explains a little about what happened to those computers: donated to universities in the early 70s when they were phased out and apparently inspired a few papers and user group discussions. The CHM has one, I wonder if any others survive. e.g. http://www.stormingmedia.us/75/7570/0757067.html (looks like a few people here were discussing this last Sep on the VCF forum) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 00:50:22 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 22:50:22 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , Message-ID: <4DDC989E.70703@brouhaha.com> dwight elvey wrote: > I've only used a logic analyzer twice in 30+ years of > fixing all kinds of electronics. I find them time consuming > and not much good for general debugging. In order to > use one right, you need to have a rough idea as to what > is wrong. By that time, I have been able to narrow it down, > that far, I can quickly trace it with a normal scope. Not saying > there were not times I needed a logic analyzer, it just > that when I did use it, I knew what I was up against. > Both times, it was related to tracing down a design bug > and not just a bad part. I've used logic analyzers a *lot*, and have found that they almost always save me a great deal of time. However, I've mostly used them on equipment where I *completely* understood the hardware design, either because I was involved in designing it, or because I'd spent a great deal of time studying the hardware documentation. I think a logic analyzer would be considerably less useful trying to diagnose a failure of equipment of a design with which I was not intimately familiar. The other use case I have for them is reverse-engineering a working piece of equipment. I'm not trying to repair a fault, but rather to learn how an undocumented piece of hardware works. Eric From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 01:22:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 02:22:00 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DDC8F9D.6080003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDC8F9D.6080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4DDCA008.5060901@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 1:11 AM, ben wrote: > Since serial ports are not many new machines,have you tried > it with a USB serial converter? I use them regularly for PDP-11s. Most of them work fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 01:25:25 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 02:25:25 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDCA0D5.9010004@neurotica.com> On 5/24/11 11:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old >> Tektronix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend locally. >> Mmmm, vacuum tubes.... Turn on the scope, go get a beer while it warms >> up, measure and test with confidence. -- Ian > > Our radio museum here has several old 500-series tek scopes that I'd > love to refurbish and get working. There's a 4-channel plug-in in one of > them, too. Size, maintenance and fan noise might make them not-so-great > for regular use but it would be nice to be able to use them on occasion. > I loved the crispness of the trace and the blue tint of the phosphor in > the CRTs of that series. I wonder why Tek didn't continue using that > phosphor. Oh, I don't know what it's called, but I LOVE that phosphor! 500-series scopes are just amazing devices in so many ways. If you have the opportunity I strongly encourage you to bring them back to life. They pull a lot of power and generate a lot of heat, but properly maintained they'll behave just fine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 25 01:41:24 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 May 2011, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sun, 22 May 2011 02:15:52 -0700 (PDT) > David Griffith wrote: > >> http://www.schlabonski.de/zwiebeltuete.html > There are also VAX, Sinclair QL, ... versions on > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > > BTW: I met "endergone Zwiebelt?te" in person. I don't think that there > was any alcohol or other drugs involved. ;-) What posessed him to do those pics? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 01:45:30 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:45:30 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDCA0D5.9010004@neurotica.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDCA0D5.9010004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 2011 May 24, at 11:25 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/24/11 11:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old >>> Tektronix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend >>> locally. >>> Mmmm, vacuum tubes.... Turn on the scope, go get a beer while it >>> warms >>> up, measure and test with confidence. -- Ian >> >> Our radio museum here has several old 500-series tek scopes that I'd >> love to refurbish and get working. There's a 4-channel plug-in in one >> of >> them, too. Size, maintenance and fan noise might make them >> not-so-great >> for regular use but it would be nice to be able to use them on >> occasion. >> I loved the crispness of the trace and the blue tint of the phosphor >> in >> the CRTs of that series. I wonder why Tek didn't continue using that >> phosphor. > > Oh, I don't know what it's called, but I LOVE that phosphor! > 500-series scopes are just amazing devices in so many ways. If you > have the opportunity I strongly encourage you to bring them back to > life. They pull a lot of power and generate a lot of heat, but > properly maintained they'll behave just fine. Whenever I see those scopes or pictures with the blue phosphor visible I think "It's 1964, the space race is on and we're doin' real rocket science". I was a child in the 60s, so they're before my professional time, but they were *the* scope of the 60s, and even as a child I was aware of them from photos in books. Usual time issues to getting one going. I'd like to spend some time doing some research, acquaint myself with the innards, and go over it thoroughly before powering up. Sadly, I need to rescue them from the radio museum, one has been damaged since it came into the museum .. grumble. I get the impression from the web there isn't much dollar value to them any longer. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed May 25 02:01:51 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 00:01:51 -0700 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDCA95F.6000707@brouhaha.com> David Griffith wrote: > What posessed him to do those pics? Does it really surprise you that some people love old computers? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed May 25 02:06:19 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 00:06:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: <4DDCA95F.6000707@brouhaha.com> References: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDCA95F.6000707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 May 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> What posessed him to do those pics? > > Does it really surprise you that some people love old computers? Well, someone loved the Berlin Wall so much she married it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed May 25 04:37:13 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 05:37:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? Message-ID: <8CDE8D675F6128C-1890-D4B4@webmail-d066.sysops.aol.com> On Wednesday, May 25th, at 2:01 CDT, Eric Smith wrote: > Does it really surprise you that some people love old computers? It doesn't surprise me that he loves his PDP-11. . . after all, who wouldn't ? . . . but a Sony Vaio? That's just sick. Hehe. T From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 25 07:55:13 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 06:55:13 -0600 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: In article , Brent Hilpert writes: > The CHM has one, I wonder if any others survive. The one at the CHM was a gift from Aaron Insinga and was the one donated to the University of Delaware. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 25 08:34:26 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:34:26 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 5/24/11 10:29 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>>> With 8KW you need a really old copy of RT11 maybe V3 or V2 and it >>>> would >>>> not do much. >>> >>> Heck Allison, RT11 v4 and v5 don't do much either! ;) >> >> Now those are fighting words... I find v5.4 and higher to be very >> capable. > > Nah, I don't really dislike RT11. I'm just accustomed to > multitasking/timesharing operating systems. (beyond RT11FB, you know > what I mean..) You are either unaware of Multi-User Basic under RT-11 or you may have not remembered. While RT-11 has no file sharing capability and is certainly slow when run on a PDP-11/23 and limited in the size of files when only an RK05 is available, Multi-User Basic was available even before 1980 under RT-11. The Chicago Tribune required a system to handle their multi-million dollar newspaper printing presses. 11 computers had to be co-ordinated (using just 9600 baud serial lines - so there was a maximum of only 11 characters per millisecond and only very rarely was more than one computer active at a time) along with a data base that was kept of the 400 plates per day needed to print the newspaper. In 1981, the editorial offices were a few miles from the printing presses and sending a physical negative of each page was too time consuming. A microwave link was used to transmit the data for each page which then directly produced the physical plate for the press. The microwave signals had to be turned on within a time window of about 100 milliseconds, so the PDP-11/23 was quite adequate even when the signal had to be sent to 6 plate makers within that window. Multi-User Basic supported up to 4 users who entered the data as to which plates had to be made that day and which plates had been completed. It ran as a virtual background job under RT11XM. The foreground virtual job scheduled the 11 tasks controlling the 11 computers making the plates as well as the microwave switch. The foreground job scheduled each job on a round robin basis when there was any input character present to process and when finished gave the rest of the CPU time (probably over 95%) to Multi-User Basic. All this was done in 1981 with V04.00 of RT-11 with just 256 KB of physical memory. I don't know if it was ever upgraded to a PDP-11/73, but that would have been just a hardware upgrade. So while I agree that RT-11 is not often used in this manner, it can be done under the correct situation. In addition, while I agree that for a multi-user environment, scheduling a job based on its priority is essential, I have 6 VT100 terminals on my desk for the real PDP-11. System jobs are used to run 5 of the VT100 terminals in EDIT mode so that I can look at sufficient portions of the listing files which are produced by MACRO-11 along with having enough of the program listing displayed when I am debugging the program under SDX.SYS which freezes the complete system when stopped at a break point. While a bit inconvenient, it was not so difficult that switching to TSX-Plus was worth while to allow access to different parts of the listing as I progressed through the program. So, again, within a single user situation, RT-11 does easily support multiple jobs or multi-tasking, especially so under RT11XM with multi-terminal support. After I had set up this system, I stopped making hard copy listings of my programs and kept all of the current listings on a 600 MB ESDI hard drive. I have migrated the identical software to my PC and run Ersatz-11. The only difference is that the system runs many times faster than the PDP-11/83, the available disk space is many times larger, and there is only the single PC monitor on my desk with one keyboard - that is switched in less than 1/10 second from one "terminal" to the other via as supported by E11. In fact, it switches so fast that I can eyeball the different screens to detect where a listing changes to easily determine the differences (as long as the different copies of the same file are aligned, of course, with the same characters in the same location). I hope that my example of how I use RT-11 has convinced you that RT-11 (within the limitations due to the scheduling algorithm) is just as much of a "multitasking/timesharing" system as RSX-11 and RSTS/E. I often set the background task to execute a command file which assembles and links the current program beng developed WHILE I use the system EDIT jobs to look at the listing of the program, especially when the program has many subroutines and many assemblies combined into one program at the end. Jerome Fine From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 09:41:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:41:00 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDCA0D5.9010004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDD14FC.1050700@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 2:45 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Whenever I see those scopes or pictures with the blue phosphor visible I > think "It's 1964, the space race is on and we're doin' real rocket > science". I was a child in the 60s, so they're before my professional > time, but they were *the* scope of the 60s, and even as a child I was > aware of them from photos in books. :-) My first oscilloscope was a Tektronix 543, followed by an Eico 460. Even though I didn't understand much about electronics at the time (the scopes helped that a lot) getting that Eico unit very quickly gave me an appreciation for Tektronix. (I do have a soft spot for Eico stuff though, but for other reasons.) > Usual time issues to getting one going. I'd like to spend some time > doing some research, acquaint myself with the innards, and go over it > thoroughly before powering up. Sadly, I need to rescue them from the > radio museum, one has been damaged since it came into the museum .. > grumble. I get the impression from the web there isn't much dollar value > to them any longer. Look around a bit more. The collectors' market for those scopes is very active, and some of them go for serious money if they haven't been stripped for tubes. The big obstacle those guys face is the shipping expenses...they cost a fortune to ship. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 10:06:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:06:24 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DDD1AF0.2060008@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> Nah, I don't really dislike RT11. I'm just accustomed to >> multitasking/timesharing operating systems. (beyond RT11FB, you know >> what I mean..) > > You are either unaware of Multi-User Basic under RT-11 > or you may have not remembered. While RT-11 has no > file sharing capability and is certainly slow when run > on a PDP-11/23 and limited in the size of files when > only an RK05 is available, Multi-User Basic was > available even before 1980 under RT-11. No, I'm quite aware of it, and it is impressive. It's just that a multitasking language interpreter sitting atop a (mostly) single-tasking operating system isn't really my idea of a "multiuser OS". I'm sure it's possible for users to log in and perform file operations and software development, but logging in and getting a BASIC prompt isn't my idea of how to do it. That's just a matter of opinion. Oh, that, and I've never been able to find a copy of it. ;) (perhaps you'd help me with that?) > The Chicago Tribune required a system to handle > their multi-million dollar newspaper printing presses. ... ... > All this was done in 1981 with V04.00 of RT-11 with > just 256 KB of physical memory. That's a fantastic story, thanks for typing it up! I was unaware of the history of MU-Basic. Those guys did some really impressive things with it. > In addition, while I agree that for a multi-user environment, > scheduling a job based on its priority is essential, I have > 6 VT100 terminals on my desk for the real PDP-11. > System jobs are used to run 5 of the VT100 terminals > in EDIT mode so that I can look at sufficient portions > of the listing files which are produced by MACRO-11 > along with having enough of the program listing displayed > when I am debugging the program under SDX.SYS > which freezes the complete system when stopped at > a break point. While a bit inconvenient, it was not > so difficult that switching to TSX-Plus was worth > while to allow access to different parts of the listing > as I progressed through the program. So, again, > within a single user situation, RT-11 does easily > support multiple jobs or multi-tasking, especially > so under RT11XM with multi-terminal support. While I hadn't forgotten about MU-Basic, I HAD forgotten about multi-terminal support under XM. I've never actually used it. I will fire up simh and give it a run sometime soon. One question: How does it handle user authentication and access control? > I hope that my example of how I use RT-11 has > convinced you that RT-11 (within the limitations > due to the scheduling algorithm) is just as much > of a "multitasking/timesharing" system as RSX-11 > and RSTS/E. I often set the background task to > execute a command file which assembles and links > the current program beng developed WHILE I use > the system EDIT jobs to look at the listing of the > program, especially when the program has many > subroutines and many assemblies combined into > one program at the end. It certainly can be, yes. Note well that I'm not really dissing RT-11; I hope you don't take my comments that way. I use it when I feel it's appropriate. I've always found it odd that DEC added two different ways of achieving multi-user operation to a single-user OS when systems like RSX existed. It has always seemed a bit kludgy to me, and it paints RT-11 in a bad light by seemingly making it "play catch-up" with the OSs of the time which were designed for multiuser/multitasking operation in the first place. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 10:29:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:29:36 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > You are either unaware of Multi-User Basic under RT-11 > or you may have not remembered. About MU-Basic, another listmember just sent me a copy. I've not seen it in about twenty years, and never on one of my own systems. I know what I'll be doing this afternoon! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed May 25 10:39:01 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:39:01 -0400 Subject: cleaning out collection - manuals and books this time In-Reply-To: References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DDD2295.8050309@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all again, Before I forget, I am in Eastern MA, Wrentham, the stuff is pick up only. Since it is already packed, it is all or nothing. I have about 20 shelf-feet of regular size manuals and docs, including but not limited to: VMS, RT11 and TSX+ VAX system and options U.S. system price lists Misc DEC manuals, especially QBus hardware RSX Networking Products catalogs Spares- Self Maintenance catalogs hardware and software option/module catalogs VMS Decnet + VAX FMS 11-MMS (NON regular size, ie, small): VMS Mini doc set Dilog, emulex, sigma, fuji and DTC catalogs and docs In addition I have about another 8 shelf-feet or so of the smaller handbooks, and mini manuals for RT11 and RSX, even a Unix distribution box (DEC style) All the big stuff is packed, I'll be packing the smaller stuff today. thanks Joe Heck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 25 10:40:59 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:40:59 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com>, <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to>, <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone have a copy of the Comdyna Microhybrid I manual? Dwight From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 10:43:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:43:44 -0400 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com>, <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to>, <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDD23B0.4070108@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 11:40 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of the Comdyna Microhybrid I manual? You didn't score that system that was on eBay awhile back, did you? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 25 10:58:45 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 08:58:45 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 9:40 AM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction > > On 5/24/11 9:20 AM, steve shumaker wrote: > > > item is listed as an "equipment rack" but photos show what appears to > be a complete system including a V72 minicomputer with full front panel > controls, power units and a tape drive. > > > > I'm lusting here but there's no way.... > > > > Well, hopefully someone line Bill Maddox will go after this. V-series > minis don't show up very often. > ...or maybe someone like the Living Computer Museum. :-) Al, do you have any docs for this? I wasn't able to find any on BitSavers. Cheers -- Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 25 10:58:40 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:58:40 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201105251608.p4PG8FTD048037@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:29 AM 5/25/2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >On 5/25/11 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>You are either unaware of Multi-User Basic under RT-11 >>or you may have not remembered. > > About MU-Basic, another listmember just sent me a copy. I've not seen it in about twenty years, and never on one of my own systems. I know what I'll be doing this afternoon! :-) I cut my programming teeth on MU-BASIC. In 1979 or so, my high school was fortunate enough to get a 11/03 from the local DEC rep. I think it supported a VT-52, a VT-55, and an LA-120. The weird single-line graphics mode of the VT-55 was intriguing to me. It seemed so much more high-res than the blocky graphics of the IMSAI 8080 that the Computer Club constructed. I remember trying to create an arbitrary line-drawing subroutine that borrowed dots from other lines, but I think it ran out of RAM. By '81 at UW-Madison, I picked up a part-time programming job in MU-BASIC. - John From technobug at comcast.net Wed May 25 11:15:08 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:15:08 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69A9363B-8E79-483E-9C36-DE113D5BDE22@comcast.net> On 5/24/11 11:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old >> Tektronix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend locally. >> Mmmm, vacuum tubes.... Turn on the scope, go get a beer while it warms >> up, measure and test with confidence. -- Ian > > Our radio museum here has several old 500-series tek scopes that I'd > love to refurbish and get working. There's a 4-channel plug-in in one of > them, too. Size, maintenance and fan noise might make them not-so-great > for regular use but it would be nice to be able to use them on occasion. > I loved the crispness of the trace and the blue tint of the phosphor in > the CRTs of that series. I wonder why Tek didn't continue using that > phosphor. The P11 phosphor was available on the 7000 series crates and the 400 series (455,465,475) portables as options. My 7844 has the pretty blue traces from the two-gun CRT as well as a 400 MHz backplane. I still make room and haul it out to make measurements requiring one of the off-the-wall plug-ins with which Tek populated that line of scopes. -> CRC From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:15:35 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:15:35 -0400 Subject: Edusystem-25 BASIC (was Re: PDP-11/03) Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/25/11 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> You are either unaware of Multi-User Basic under RT-11 >> or you may have not remembered. > > ?About MU-Basic, another listmember just sent me a copy. ?I've not seen it > in about twenty years, and never on one of my own systems. ?I know what I'll > be doing this afternoon! :-) This thread got me looking for the PDP-8 equivalent (thinking back to Dave Ahl's original (pre-MSBASIC) edition of "101 BASIC Computer Games") and I found this... http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Langs/Edu25Basic/Ascii/edu25.pa ... but every copy I've found has what looks like some corruption halfway through (just below the label "FOGO2"). Has anyone ever gotten a working version of this? The comments up top suggest a rare but not-impossible-to-assemble set of hardware requirements (especially in emulation)... /EDUSYSTEM 25 BASIC IS FOR THE PDP-8/E, -8/F, -8/M, -8/I, -8/L WITH /12K OR MORE MEMORY AND EITHER THE DC02 OR PT08(KL8E) OPTION /AND TC08 DECTAPE CONTROLLER WITH TU56 OR TWO TU55 TRANSPORT(S) /NOTE: START ADDRESS IS 15200. A bit of brief reading of the code suggests that it could handle up to 8 terminals. I don't happen to have a TC08 (only a TD8E), so it's unlikely I'll ever take it any farther than emulation, presuming an intact version of it is still floating around out there. -ethan From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 25 11:17:10 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 09:17:10 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> John B and I have one of the units + all the cards from a second one. We need the disk drive. for the unit to have it function. Luckily one of the units we have is still functional, but was headed for the wall art display fate, and was rescued, but the other one had been broken into the boards. They were collected for spares for the one that does work. if anyone has information on these machines, or where a disk could be had it would be interesting. Jim On 5/24/2011 10:50 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ran across this while searching for some tek stuff. Fellow has the > boards from the first version of the Minuteman guidance computer > (Autonetics D17B, late 50s, discrete transistor) laid out as wall art > in his living room. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ODi7qSpYg > > Explains a little about what happened to those computers: donated to > universities in the early 70s when they were phased out and apparently > inspired a few papers and user group discussions. The CHM has one, I > wonder if any others survive. > e.g. http://www.stormingmedia.us/75/7570/0757067.html > > (looks like a few people here were discussing this last Sep on the VCF > forum) > > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed May 25 09:00:38 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:00:38 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DDC8F9D.6080003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDC8F9D.6080003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I've never tried it with a USB serial port actually. Then again I've never had the issue of not having serial ports on my PC. (If it doesn't have serial ports, I will buy a serial card... Even if it is my top of the line quad core, multi-terabyte disk space, built for gaming and multimedia PC.) It should work fine though. At the very least, it would work fine for the console connection. On 25 May 2011 01:11, ben wrote: > On 5/24/2011 9:03 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> In terms of hardware on the PC side of things, all one needs is a >> serial port. The software I use (which I'm sure I linked; if not find >> it here: http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/ ) I currently >> run on my Windows XP Pro SP3 system; it's also been tested under >> Windows 2000 and Windows 2003 Server Standard by me), with the >> oversized images. >> >> The PC side of the cable is a nine-pin serial port, while the PDP-11 >> side is the 10-pin cable. The cable I use, has one side as the DLVJ1 >> connection (10-pin IDC, tab scraped off) and he other side as a DE9M >> D-sub connector (i.e. the "PC serial port" connector, wired as a DTE). >> The conenction between the systems is then made with a standard serial >> null modem cable (I had a couple so I just used a that). (Plus wiring >> the serial port on the '11 side of things as a DTE is the correct >> way.) > > Since serial ports are not many new machines,have you tried > it with a USB serial converter? > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed May 25 09:10:56 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:10:56 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: <4DDBD05D.3040304@verizon.net> References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> <4DDBD05D.3040304@verizon.net> Message-ID: Since I'm finally home and not busy, I've gotten a chance to review at the BitSavers documentation for the VT-103. It did support having a TU58 crammed into the space under the normal VT-100 CRT. It was a Q18 4x4 serpentine backplane with lots of customization/"specialness" to work in the VT-100 enclosure. Put an 11/23 and an MXV11-BF into row one and you have three rows of quad slots left in the system. (Which should provide more then enough space for expansion. As you've got CPU and 128KB RAM, 2 SLU, clock and ROM all in those two boards.) I'd probably put an RQDX3 or CMD CQD-22X SCSI controller for mass storage, and another 128KB RAM board, to bring the system to a full 256KB of RAM. And that still leaves two rows empty. What else can one stick into the VT-103? Well, I'm sure you can think of something. (For absolute hilarity, since RSTS/E 10.1 can run on an 11/23 with 256KB RAM, add a DELQA, DLVJ-1 and two DZQ-11 modules and have a desktop timesharing box with network connectivity.) I would prefer a real VT-100 (or VT-125), however I have the slight issues of: 1. Can't find anything in Hamilton. 2. Don't have money. 3. I can't drive any where to pick anything up (because of visual impairment - read: blindness in one eye, and crap vision in the other - I can't drive a car). So that's why I'm currently limited to using a PC. Well that and a slight lack of space. I had a silly idea of what to do with spare QBUS 11 but it would be more silly then anything. Since I'm a bit into the steampunk aesthetic; built a QBUS backplane and PSU into an ornate small cabinet so that it looks like Victorian era furniture, and put a table-top KSR-33 (caseless) or KSR-35 (either caseless or with case) on top of the cabinet and have a "Victorian-11". (Since the front panel on most QBUS 11 systems is so simplistic one could also make the panel look similarly "old." It would be an interesting conversation piece, but mildly odd in apperance. Though, to keep the look you'd have to mount the disk drives behind a small door (otherwise you have Victorian furniture... with a floppy disk drive in it). On 24 May 2011 11:35, allison wrote: > On 05/24/2011 10:30 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >> >> Ooh, I like the BA11VA chassis, it's quite "cute" in it's compactness. >> Though, I'm more partial to the VT-103 -- which I'm still trying to >> get from the person who I know has one -- mostly becuase it's a QBUS >> '11 in a VT-100 with real TU58 mounted under the CRT (or at least it >> was an option to have the TU58, I think; I'm not sure, I have to go >> check the BitSavers documentation again). >> > That combo is possible IF the PDT110 case was ?hybrided with > the VT103 internal hardware. ?I believe there were some of those > made that way for the printing/typesetting industry. > > My BA11VA was my first 11 back in '79. ?The TU58 used with it > is in a similar box so they stack nice and the BA11 provides the > power. > > >> My 11/23 is currently in a PDP-11/03L chassis (9-slot, quad-width, >> Q18/CD backplane). Interms of cards in it the system, I have an 11/23 >> CPU (with MMU, no FPP, or CIS), 256KB RAM made by a tird-party, DLVJ-1 >> quad-SLU, RQDX3, M9058 distributor board for the RQDX3 and the >> BDV11-YA 18-bit bootstrap/diagnotics/terminator board. >> >> It's currently hooked up to my spare PC, which provides both the >> terminal, and TU58 emulation to the system. I currently have the >> system booting RT-11FB; I'd rather boot RT-11XM, but I'm having >> difficulty modifying the DDX.SYS driver. >> > I have VT100, Vt125, Vt185 (100+125 using factory board), > several VT320 and a VT330(color). ?They just work better > than PCs. > > >> Right now I'm looking for disks and diskettes for my system... as well >> as generally improving the system. (I'd like to go to Q22 serpentine, >> and an 11/73 with enough RAM and disk to run 2.11 BSD; but that might >> be slightly difficult given my lack of money, and in-)ability to go >> and get anything.) >> > I have my 11/73 and that a BA11S with a Q22 serpentine. ?Its > populated with 11/73, 4MB ram, RLV21/RL02, RQDX3(3 RD52s 1 RX33), > RX02, TK50, DEQNA in a 50inch corp cab. ?Thats the big system. > > Others include two BA11S each with 11/23B, 1mb ram running RQDX2 > controllers and a RD51, RX50. > >> Your luggable 11/23 sounds pretty neat. Do you have any photos of it? >> > > Sorry no, I haven't thought to. ?The dual width 12 slot case set the > dimensions > as 8" high. ?With that the drivers are oriented vertical with a bezel to > make > up the height (pair of TEAC 55GFR) and the PS is along side the card cage > with fans in between. ?Air flow was the real challange and it's in via one > side > of the back and out via the other side of the back so that it flows across > the > PS through a divider holding the fans (10V from ba23 with thermal speed > control) > across the 12slot cage and out that side through a grill (perforated > aluminum). > The H780 PS with the three switches are front accessable with the floppies > and > a 4 port serial panel on the rear next to the IEC power connector. ?The back > folds > down on a piano hinge for access. > > Simple box of minimum size to hold all, no miters edges or the like just a > box. > One of the planned changes is to put a ST225 I have in place of one of the > floppies. > I've since looked at it and have a slot left for a VK170 video card. ?Also > found a > serial ascii keyboard at a flea (boot sale). ?So I'm considering junking > that case and > making it bigger to fit a 7" crt or LCD to take the video from the VK170 and > having a > pocket for the keyboard. ?Then it would be self contained system but easier > to > transport and faster than a PDT. ?The end result would be a PDP11 version of > Darth Vaders lunch box (KAYPRO). > > Allison > > >> Cheers to you, >> >> -- Christian >> >> >> >> >> >> On 22 May 2011 18:19, allison ?wrote: >>> >>> On 05/22/2011 04:50 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: >>>> >>>> Is VTSERVER a TU58 emulator? I've never actually personally used it. >>>> >>>> But yes, an RT-11 build for the TU58 uses the DD.SYS driver. Though, >>>> building it for an oversize TU58 image is the same, just with the >>>> modified driver replacing the "plain, vanilla" DD.SYS. (You can get >>>> the modified driver onto a disk image on your PC via PUTR. You can >>>> even skip using an emulator altogether and just build images in PUTR.) >>>> >>>> I've used PDP-11 sims for a while, mostly because I've only *JUST* got >>>> my hands on a real PDP-11 (11/23 w/256KB RAM, DLVJ-1, and RQDX3); >>>> though I'm relying on the oversized TU58 images as my disk media as I >>>> have no real disks unfortunately. (So the RL02 sized TU58 images, >>>> though slightly slow, provide me an actual usable RT-11 environment >>>> (I've DECUS C and the RT-11 BASIC on my system "tape" while the second >>>> TU58 is my data "tape").) I'm also negotiating for a VT-103 as well. >>>> >>> My collection includes a few real TU58s working. ?My fun 11 that is the >>> most >>> portable one is: >>> >>> BA11VA >>> 11/23 >>> 512K ram >>> DLV11J >>> MRV21 (holds a boot for tu58) >>> >>> I run RT11XM on it and the first boot cycle load the base image and then >>> inits >>> VM: and then copies the system to it and boots VM. ?After that the system >>> is >>> fairly useful as most mundane tasks do not hit the tape. ?It ends up with >>> about >>> half of the 512K as virtual disk and XM running in the other half. ?I do >>> this ?on >>> the larger systems running RX02 or RX50 with 2mb ram installed and that >>> really >>> is nicer. >>> >>> FYI: for those that have Qbus 11s disks are possible, you need a >>> RQDX1/2/3, >>> cables >>> and the module from the BA123 (or BA23) to break the 50wide cable to MFM >>> hard >>> disk AND 34pin floppy (RX50, RX33). ?If you can't find a RX50 or RX33 >>> then >>> hunt >>> down anything 5.25" 80track that can be jumpered to work like a TEAC >>> FD55GFR. >>> the preferred distribution board is the one out of the BA123 as it >>> supports >>> more >>> of a given media and different possible media. ?the bridge baord requires >>> power >>> but if need be it can be hand wired if the backplane lacks room. >>> >>> Generally RQDX controllers are easy to find but most people bemoan the >>> lack >>> of >>> MFM hard disks. ?But for a floppy only system it can be setup for two >>> RX50 >>> or >>> two RX33s or two RX23s. ?RT11 supports MSCP controllers of all versions. >>> >>> The preferred controller is the later versions of RQDX3 as the late >>> firmware >>> will also >>> run 3.5" 800k (RX23/22) which uses bacially PC compatable 3.5" media and >>> it >>> also >>> supports the RX33 drive at both 400K side and 1.6MB side. ?Even without >>> the >>> late >>> firmware Most dial denity 3.5" drives are supportable at the lower >>> density >>> of 400K >>> single sided (same as RX50). ?For that you that do this will have to use >>> a >>> PC to >>> format media or a mVAX2000 or for those that have it X11 diagnostics. >>> >>> I've taken a 11/23 (m8186), ?4 M8059 (1MB of ram total), MRV21 rom card, >>> DRV11J M8043, RQDX3/distribution into a 12 slot dual wide cage and with >>> a DEC BA11 supply (RTC, ?Bevent-L, and reset support via standard 3 >>> switch >>> panel) into a finished plywood box with two RX33s as a lugable and useful >>> system. The terminal is laptop with minicom or a real VT320 ?It's light >>> and >>> runs RTXM nicely. >>> >>> Before any one gets upset with that apparent abomination it's built with >>> excess spares for the other six Qbus 11s from LSI11 through 11/73. ?No >>> Qbus 11s were executed to build it. ?Of all my Qbus-11s it's the handiest >>> as by PDP11 standards its very portable. >>> >>> >>> Allison >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On 22 May 2011 09:06, allison ? ?wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 05/21/2011 06:57 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> On Saturday (05/21/2011 at 03:18PM -0400), Christian Gauger-Cosgrove >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yes, it was a typo, thanks for pointing out the obviousness (and my >>>>>>> forgetting to manually proofread that part of the message). >>>>>> >>>>>> I just didn't want someone not as familiar with the OS to struggle >>>>>> with >>>>>> a command that would definitely not work as intended. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Still, the point remains, it seems a bit easier then VTSERVER to just >>>>>>> do it via a TU58 emulator, especially if VTSERVER ignores the bad >>>>>>> blocks on the real media. >>>>>> >>>>>> Do you have a recipe for converting various non-TU58 images (such as >>>>>> RL02) to a TU58 image so that it can be put onto the emulator and >>>>>> then transfered to the target system? >>>>>> >>>>>> Many of the images floating around are RL02, RX33, or other kinds of >>>>>> rotating media/disk images and not tape images. ?What is the right >>>>>> way to turn them into tape images for such an emulator? >>>>>> >>>>>> Thanks. >>>>>> >>>>>> Chris >>>>>> >>>>> Simple with an emulator running said disk images you have the tools >>>>> and source files to build a tape image. >>>>> >>>>> NOTE: Vtserver aka tu58 emulator was simply a block addressable device >>>>> on >>>>> the end of a serial line that did everything a disk could do.. just >>>>> slower. >>>>> That is very important as all other tapes are used and handled very >>>>> different from TU58. >>>>> >>>>> So with that a Rt11 build for TU58 is exactly the same as RL02 or RX02 >>>>> save for the DD driver is used instead. >>>>> >>>>> I've never spent much time on sims for PDP11s as I have the real thing >>>>> and many of them. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Allison >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> > > From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 25 11:31:25 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:31:25 -0600 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4DDD2B86.40108 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > John B and I have one of the units + all the cards from a second one. > We need the disk drive. for the unit to have it function. Wouldn't it be better to emulate the disk at this point? Or are you saying you need the *contents* of the disk in order to make it funciton? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 25 11:34:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:34:04 -0600 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDC989E.70703@brouhaha.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com>, <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>, , <4DDC989E.70703@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4DDC989E.70703 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > [...] I think a logic > analyzer would be considerably less useful trying to diagnose a failure > of equipment of a design with which I was not intimately familiar. However, I'd think that exploring a well documented design with a logic analyzer would be fairly productive. Its one thing to look at schematics and "theory of operation" paragraphs; its another thing to look at the signals evolve over time. Particularly when the hardware is spread out over many schematics with connecting signal identifiers between sheets. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 12:12:09 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:12:09 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/11 8:58 AM, Ian King wrote: > ...or maybe someone like the Living Computer Museum. :-) Al, do you have any docs for this? I wasn't able to find any on BitSavers. Cheers -- Ian I think all I have is a handbook. The 70 series was mostly sold while Sperry owned the Varian computer line, and I've not seen much from that time. http://dimka.com/daily/external-pages/spies.com-~aek-orphanage.html has a copy of my old spies web page. I did chase down "Second Source Computers" around 5 years ago, but they weren't very helpful. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 12:16:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:16:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: from "jonas@otter.se" at May 24, 11 10:58:30 am Message-ID: > Philips, Gould, Hameg or Kenwood made decent 'scopes. It will also do In the UK, there's also Telequip/Telequipment (who were part of Tektronix at one time) and Solartron. I have a Solartron CD1400 as my 'portable' 'scope (the Tekky 555 is not easy to move around). It's only 15HMz, but it's a double beam unit (real double beam with 2 electron guns) and plug-in Y ammplifiers nad timebase. I was lucky enough to find the delayed timebase unit for it which makes it a lote morte sueable. It's old and vlaved, though. -tony From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Wed May 25 12:22:56 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 10:22:56 -0700 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. Message-ID: So I finally got my hands on a pdp8/a at the University auction. It's the omnibus model that's built into a desk and called the Classic, short for CLASSroom Interactive Computer. I had no idea it was so heavy as it was loaded for me into the back of my pickup. I discovered it must be real heavy as the my F-150 groaned when loaded and when I came home and unloaded I almost herniated myself. There it sits, almost complete (without the VT52) but has an extra RL01/RL02 board. Is it the desk that gives it the weight. I know the dual RX01 are heavy, but the are the cage, power supply and boards real heavy in these things or is the DESK to blame. Until I put it on something that I can move around, it will sit in my driveway. I can run a terminal cable and an extension cord out to it to maybe boot it up after I do some more research on it to see if all the boards are there. One thing is not clear.n looking at the board numbers, it seems it doesn't have a memory board, but it might have memory aboard the CPU card. Is this right? It uses the newer cmos memory. It has the three board set that also was used in the KIT-1, but it also has a variety of other boards that I'll write down as soon as I can. Cheers Tom From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 12:25:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:25:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 24, 11 10:25:08 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 23 May 2011 21:25:26 +0100 > James Wilson wrote: > > > Hi Jochen, that's a really nice haul :) > Yes. I know what Transputers are and that they are very, _very_, > _*very*_ rare. Really rare, not in the ePay sense "rare". The bigger Are they? I;ve got anumber of them, both as TRAMs and bare chips. > was my surprise to find this stuff in a dumpster. > > > I guess you've already found Rams page at > > http://www.classiccmp.org/transputer/. > ... and a few other pages as well. > > > That should have all the data sheets you need. > The problem is: Datasheets don't tell me _what_ I can do with this > stuff and how to do it. Datasheets cover a lot of small details. I am > missing the "big picture" that gives me an overview. And yet you just said that you know waht a transputer is... Basically (and this is what the data sheets don't tell you), it's a microcontroller. It's a CPU, RAM, ROM (a bootstrap program) and I/O (4 transputer links) on one chip. It's designed for parallel porcesing, you can either have several processings running on one chip (timesliced, of course), or on separate chips commuinicating via the links. The software changes in Occam to go from one to the other are very minor. The chip has an external memory bus, and generates the refresh address for DRAMs. The meory control signals are configruable. Adding external memory (even DRAM) or I/O to these devices is very easy, at lerast on the common T4s and T8s. There's one member of the T8 family (I forget the number, it's either T801 or T805) that was optimised to use SRAM only and has a somewaht faster memeory cycle time than the other members of the family, but I would be surprised if you'd got that one. The TRAM (TRAnsputer Module, BTW) communcated with the outside world via the links only. You don't have access to the memory bus. If you use the bare chip you do. As for what you might use them for, I guess it's more like 'what do you use any computer for' :-) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 12:48:09 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:48:09 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDD40D9.8090007@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 1:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Hi Jochen, that's a really nice haul :) >> Yes. I know what Transputers are and that they are very, _very_, >> _*very*_ rare. Really rare, not in the ePay sense "rare". The bigger > > Are they? I;ve got anumber of them, both as TRAMs and bare chips. They are. Keep in mind that a lot of us here have a lot of things that truly are very rare. Transputer stuff turns up on the market now and then, but not often, and only in very small (typically single-unit) quantities. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed May 25 13:22:10 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:22:10 -0700 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ecab4cdf0e9ca468e415e5a8df57063@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 May 25, at 10:22 AM, Tom publix wrote: > So I finally got my hands on a pdp8/a at the University auction. It's > the > omnibus model that's built into a desk and called the Classic, short > for > CLASSroom Interactive Computer. I had no idea it was so heavy as it was > loaded for me into the back of my pickup. I discovered it must be real > heavy > as the my F-150 groaned when loaded and when I came home and unloaded I > almost herniated myself. There it sits, almost complete (without the > VT52) > but has an extra RL01/RL02 board. Is it the desk that gives it the > weight. I > know the dual RX01 are heavy, but the are the cage, power supply and > boards > real heavy in these things or is the DESK to blame. Until I put it on > something that I can move around, it will sit in my driveway. I can > run a > terminal cable and an extension cord out to it to maybe boot it up > after I > do some more research on it to see if all the boards are there. Looking at some pictures (http://www.piercefuller.com/library/10128.html?id=10128), if that thick desk-top is made from particle-board (typical of office furniture in that era) it would be a major contributor to the weight. (The unit in the photos is on casters.) Didn't one of the 8's use a ferro-resonant power supply, with a consequently larger transformer core? > One thing is not clear.n looking at the board numbers, it seems it > doesn't > have a memory board, but it might have memory aboard the CPU card. Is > this > right? It uses the newer cmos memory. It has the three board set that > also > was used in the KIT-1, but it also has a variety of other boards that > I'll > write down as soon as I can. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 25 13:23:47 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:23:47 -0400 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Tom publix wrote: > So I finally got my hands on a pdp8/a at the University auction. It's the > omnibus model that's built into a desk and called the Classic, short for > CLASSroom Interactive Computer. Interesting. I have a desk-based -8/a that's badged as a DECsystem. > There it sits, almost complete (without the VT52) > but has an extra RL01/RL02 board. Nice. Those are a bit unusual, but handy (the PDP-8 uses the same packs as PDP-11s and VAXen, unlike with RK05s). Did you get the cable? > One thing is not clear.n looking at the board numbers, it seems it doesn't > have a memory board, but it might have memory aboard the CPU card. Is this > right? That's not the usual arrangement. The "standard" -8/a order is... M8315 KK8A PDP-8/A CPU board (hex wide) M8316 DKC8AA PDP-8/A I/O serial/parallel/clock (hex wide) M8317 KM8AA PDP-8/A bootstrap, powerfail (hex wide) Then some amount of memory, in later models, commonly one or more of : M8417 MSC8AA PDP8A 16K MOS Memory (hex wide) M8417 MSC8AB PDP8A 32K MOS Memory (hex wide) M8417 MSC8DJ PDP8A 128K MOS Memory (hex wide) The M8417 comes filled three ways (that I know of) - half-full of 4Kbit DRAMs for 16K, full of 4Kbit DRAMs for 32K, and full of 16Kbit DRAMs for 128K. Memory (and the KM8AA) goes in the slots with a "fifth" backplane connector. That's where the extra EMA bits live that permit expansion above 32K. You can mix and match memory cards in those slots, but if you want to use install more than 32K, you'll need the somewhat rare M8416 KT8A module (I only ever used it when I was dabbling with RTS-8 and wanted a full 32K for my OS/8 task). If you have 32K or less, things can go anywhere, but for cable routing and bus termination and such, stick to the recommended order. Here's a handy guide if you haven't found it already: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8a/EK-8A002-MM-02_PDP8A_UsersMan.pdf (recommended population charts are on page 2-8, but the newer, high-density MOS memory boards (and the KT8A) are newer than this document). > It uses the newer cmos memory. It has the three board set that also > was used in the KIT-1, but it also has a variety of other boards that I'll > write down as soon as I can. It will be interesting to hear how yours is populated. -ethan From shumaker at att.net Wed May 25 13:25:36 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:25:36 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> ahh well... hopefully the winner was someone here. Certainly it would seem that it was recognized as an item of interest (went for $1800!) On 5/25/2011 10:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/25/11 8:58 AM, Ian King wrote: > >> ...or maybe someone like the Living Computer Museum. :-) Al, do you >> have any docs for this? I wasn't able to find any on BitSavers. >> Cheers -- Ian > > I think all I have is a handbook. The 70 series was mostly sold while > Sperry owned the Varian > computer line, and I've not seen much from that time. > > http://dimka.com/daily/external-pages/spies.com-~aek-orphanage.html > > has a copy of my old spies web page. I did chase down "Second Source > Computers" around 5 years > ago, but they weren't very helpful. > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 25 13:28:16 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:28:16 -0400 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. In-Reply-To: <0ecab4cdf0e9ca468e415e5a8df57063@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0ecab4cdf0e9ca468e415e5a8df57063@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 2:22 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (http://www.piercefuller.com/library/10128.html?id=10128), if that thick > desk-top is made from particle-board (typical of office furniture in that > era) it would be a major contributor to the weight. (The unit in the photos > is on casters.) That's the one I have. It is definitely heavy, even if you remove the drives and the Omnibus enclosure (which is not easy to do with those fans sticking out one side). Mine has a dual RX02 and an RL01 as "drawers", a very useful combination. I haven't fired it up in a long time, but back in college, it was a daily-use machine (and took up a good chunk of the dining room in a shared residence, to my housemates' dismay). -ethan From david at classiccomputing.com Wed May 25 13:55:49 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:55:49 -0500 Subject: "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Message-ID: <43d9fcb4e907942bfbb78d5a3481b7dd.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com> "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast, chapter 4 http://bit.ly/izfPBD Loads a little slow - subscribe @ iTunes I would just like to bring this to everyone's attention. It is such a great book, and I have completed another chapter. I intend to start getting new chapters posted much sooner. Please also consider reading about Stan in the article I wrote last year, "Remembering Stan Veit" at http://classiccomputing.com/CC/Blog/Entries/2010/9/3_Stan_Veit.html Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Historical Computer Society Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer audiobook podcast Classic Computing Show video podcast Classic Computing Blog From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 12:50:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:50:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDC305E.2070507@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 24, 11 11:25:34 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > I don;t know the B012. I assume it has some kind of host interface > > I don't think it does; I think you'll need a host interface of > some sort. Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? I've never used one. > > > circuity (look for C011 or C012 chipss) and maybe some link switches > > (C004 chips). > > C011 or C012 chips are "link adaptors" that convert a parallel > CPU bus to the serial transputer link system. C004 chips are > crossbar switches for transputer links. BAsaiclaly what I said... > > > Ah... Are you saying that you don't ahve any form of link adapter. That > > is a mahor problem. I would trty to find something -- IIRC a B011 is a > > VME card with a transputer nad link adapter on it, there's the B004 for > > the ISA bus, etc. You cna then link the RRAMs together and hang it off > > the host card. > > B004 or B008 are host interfaces for ISA bus. B012 and B014 > are host interfaces for VME (typically Sun VME). B016 is a Hang on... Are you now saying the B012 is a host adapter? Thinking back, the B011 was a VME cars with a trnasputer on it, but I think it was normally used if you wanted to make a VME ssytem with the transputer as the main processor. The VME bus was interfaces to the transputer memory bus and you could drive normal VME cards with it. I've done a fair amount with the raw chips, but very little with normal commerical hardware like TRAMs and their motherboards. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 12:59:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:59:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at May 24, 11 10:26:24 pm Message-ID: > I've only used a logic analyzer twice in 30+ years of > fixing all kinds of electronics. I find them time consuming I suspect this is going to come down to personal choice, tempered slightly by the sort of machines you're working on. If you ask a dozen hackers (in the true sense) to do soemthing, you'll get it done a dozen ways, using different tools. And all are equally good... I use a logic analyser a lot. Either a handheld one (which I use just about all the time), or an old Gould. Yes, I probably could dfo the same work with a DSO, but the LA is what I am used to. I think, for exmaple, tracing the microcode in a PERQ, PDP11 or HP9800 would be difficult with most DSOs (you need at least 8 or 12 channels), I do it all the time with the LA. For that matter, just hte other day I needed to trace the operation of a state machien with a 5 bit stat register, and various inputs and outputs. Withot an instruemtn with at least 8 input channels that would have been very difficult. > and not much good for general debugging. In order to > use one right=2C you need to have a rough idea as to what > is wrong. By that time=2C I have been able to narrow it down=2C It's certainly not the first instruemtn I reach for, but I find most of the itme a multimeter and a logic probe (or even better the handheld LA) will let me find the area that's malfunctioning and give me some clues as to what's wrong. And then I grab the LA... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 13:01:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:01:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDC989E.70703@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at May 24, 11 10:50:22 pm Message-ID: > I've used logic analyzers a *lot*, and have found that they almost > always save me a great deal of time. However, I've mostly used them on > equipment where I *completely* understood the hardware design, either > because I was involved in designing it, or because I'd spent a great > deal of time studying the hardware documentation. I think a logic > analyzer would be considerably less useful trying to diagnose a failure > of equipment of a design with which I was not intimately familiar. Trying to repair anything if you don't understand what it should be doing and how it should eb doing it is a waste of time. If you don't knowwhat it should be doing, how on earth can you tell if it's faulty... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed May 25 12:47:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:47:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at May 24, 11 03:24:51 pm Message-ID: > Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old Tektr= > onix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend locally. Mmmm, v= The 560 series are small and relatively simple. Now, what yuu really want is a 545 (early model with the distributed amplifier) or 547. And what yuu swap your firstborn for is a 555 (not the timer chip :-)). The 55 is a complex instrument. Double beam (and therefore with 2 distibuted Y ampliifers). Double timebase (you cna use one for each beam, or use one to delay the other in the typical Tektronix fashion). Double EHT supples. Even double boxes (the PSU is a separate unit). Oh, and even the heater supply to most of the valves is regualted, by a circuit that takes into account the RMS value of the waveform. > acuum tubes.... Turn on the scope, go get a beer while it warms up, measur= > e and test with confidence. -- Ian=20 The 'real' 500s have a time delay relay. All the valves warm up, then this kicks in and the HT rails appear. If the 'scope is working properly, as soon as the relay fires and you get something on the screen, the unit is useable. -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 14:11:43 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:11:43 -0400 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDD546F.7030503@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 1:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Of course, just for vintage warm fuzzies, little can challenge an old Tektr= >> onix scope. I recently acquired a Tek 561A from a friend locally. Mmmm, v= > > The 560 series are small and relatively simple. Now, what yuu really want > is a 545 (early model with the distributed amplifier) or 547. And what > yuu swap your firstborn for is a 555 (not the timer chip :-)). Nice. ;) I currently have an RM547 and a 555. I lack the power supply umbilical cable for the 555 though. I had a 545A many years ago. > The 55 is a complex instrument. Double beam (and therefore with 2 > distibuted Y ampliifers). Double timebase (you cna use one for each beam, > or use one to delay the other in the typical Tektronix fashion). Double > EHT supples. Even double boxes (the PSU is a separate unit). > > Oh, and even the heater supply to most of the valves is regualted, by a > circuit that takes into account the RMS value of the waveform. Glorious. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed May 25 14:27:12 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:27:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Basically (and this is what the data sheets don't tell you), it's a > microcontroller. It's a CPU, RAM, ROM (a bootstrap program) and I/O (4 > transputer links) on one chip. It's designed for parallel porcesing, you > can either have several processings running on one chip (timesliced, of > course), or on separate chips commuinicating via the links. The software > changes in Occam to go from one to the other are very minor. I don't know of any transputers with on-chip ROM, which model would that be? > The chip has an external memory bus, and generates the refresh address for > DRAMs. The meory control signals are configruable. Adding external > memory (even DRAM) or I/O to these devices is very easy, at lerast on the > common T4s and T8s. There's one member of the T8 family (I forget the > number, it's either T801 or T805) that was optimised to use SRAM only and > has a somewaht faster memeory cycle time than the other members of the > family, but I would be surprised if you'd got that one. The 801 is the SRAM optimised one (separate address and data buses); the 805 is the 800 plus the break instruction and the Event Waiting pin. Alexey From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 14:27:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:27:39 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDD582B.60608@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 1:50 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ran across this while searching for some tek stuff. Fellow has the > boards from the first version of the Minuteman guidance computer > (Autonetics D17B, late 50s, discrete transistor) laid out as wall art in > his living room. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ODi7qSpYg Um. Whoa. The fellow in question is none other than Jim Williams, perhaps one of the most legendary analog electronics guys ever. I'm kinda surprised he'd turn that into wall art, but I'm quite certain that, other than that, those boards have a good home. Thread re-convergence: He uses a Tektronix 547 on his bench at Linear Technology. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed May 25 14:38:48 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:38:48 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: <4DDD1AF0.2060008@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> <4DDD1AF0.2060008@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDD5AC8.2000700@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 5/25/11 9:34 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >>> Nah, I don't really dislike RT11. I'm just accustomed to >>> multitasking/timesharing operating systems. (beyond RT11FB, you know >>> what I mean..) >> >> You are either unaware of Multi-User Basic under RT-11 >> or you may have not remembered. While RT-11 has no >> file sharing capability and is certainly slow when run >> on a PDP-11/23 and limited in the size of files when >> only an RK05 is available, Multi-User Basic was >> available even before 1980 under RT-11. > > No, I'm quite aware of it, and it is impressive. It's just that a > multitasking language interpreter sitting atop a (mostly) > single-tasking operating system isn't really my idea of a "multiuser > OS". I'm sure it's possible for users to log in and perform file > operations and software development, but logging in and getting a > BASIC prompt isn't my idea of how to do it. That's just a matter of > opinion. I totally agree. I was only attempting to point out that looking a bit more carefully under the hood of RT-11 is helpful. If I were to actually use reasonable multi-tasking under an RT-11 environment, I would use TSX-Plus. Except that back in 1980, the system hardware would not support the 11 real time tasks. >> The Chicago Tribune required a system to handle >> their multi-million dollar newspaper printing presses. > > ... > ... > >> All this was done in 1981 with V04.00 of RT-11 with >> just 256 KB of physical memory. > > > That's a fantastic story, thanks for typing it up! I was unaware of > the history of MU-Basic. Those guys did some really impressive things > with it. Very much so. And it was a low speed, low cost application for low budget and limited use. >> In addition, while I agree that for a multi-user environment, >> scheduling a job based on its priority is essential, I have >> 6 VT100 terminals on my desk for the real PDP-11. >> System jobs are used to run 5 of the VT100 terminals >> in EDIT mode so that I can look at sufficient portions >> of the listing files which are produced by MACRO-11 >> along with having enough of the program listing displayed >> when I am debugging the program under SDX.SYS >> which freezes the complete system when stopped at >> a break point. While a bit inconvenient, it was not >> so difficult that switching to TSX-Plus was worth >> while to allow access to different parts of the listing >> as I progressed through the program. So, again, >> within a single user situation, RT-11 does easily >> support multiple jobs or multi-tasking, especially >> so under RT11XM with multi-terminal support. > > > While I hadn't forgotten about MU-Basic, I HAD forgotten about > multi-terminal support under XM. I've never actually used it. I will > fire up simh and give it a run sometime soon. Under RT-11 after V05.00 arrived and supported all 4 MB of extended memory (and memory eventually became less expensive), having 64 KB to always run MU-Basic is great. I have not run MU-Basic under Ersatz-11, but is would now be very fast. You could now run MU-Basic as a system job and leave the background job available for regular RT-11 commands. > One question: How does it handle user authentication and access > control? Very well. A "User Id" and "Password" file that can be managed by the SYSADMIN. I don't have the manuals handy, so no details. >> I hope that my example of how I use RT-11 has >> convinced you that RT-11 (within the limitations >> due to the scheduling algorithm) is just as much >> of a "multitasking/timesharing" system as RSX-11 >> and RSTS/E. I often set the background task to >> execute a command file which assembles and links >> the current program beng developed WHILE I use >> the system EDIT jobs to look at the listing of the >> program, especially when the program has many >> subroutines and many assemblies combined into >> one program at the end. > > It certainly can be, yes. Note well that I'm not really dissing > RT-11; I hope you don't take my comments that way. I use it when I > feel it's appropriate. I've always found it odd that DEC added two > different ways of achieving multi-user operation to a single-user OS > when systems like RSX existed. It has always seemed a bit kludgy to > me, and it paints RT-11 in a bad light by seemingly making it "play > catch-up" with the OSs of the time which were designed for > multiuser/multitasking operation in the first place. I was only helping you to remember how useful and fun RT-11 can be as well as letting others know why I am so addicted to RT-11. RT-11 was probably so much less expensive at just (about) $ 2000 for the distribution and DOC set that it made a lot of sense. Often the primary purpose of a PDP-11 used so little of the CPU time that the CPU was idle most of the time. On one system performing data acquisition, I placed that job in the foreground and ran MU-Basic for a group of engineers without access to any computers back in 1981. It was great while it lasted for a few years. I modified the USR to record the Modification Date and Access Date so that I could "backup" the older files. After 6 months, no one ever asked to have files "recovered". Jerome Fine From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed May 25 14:43:12 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:43:12 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DDD5BD0.7000605@verizon.net> On 05/25/2011 12:31 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4DDD2B86.40108 at jwsss.com>, > jim s writes: > >> John B and I have one of the units + all the cards from a second one. >> We need the disk drive. for the unit to have it function. > Wouldn't it be better to emulate the disk at this point? > > Or are you saying you need the *contents* of the disk in order to make > it funciton? The machine is serial so you need the disk as it's both program store and it serves as "registers". It would be possible to simulate all that using shift registers of the correct length. Allison From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 25 14:46:31 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 21:46:31 +0200 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: References: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110525214631.e183c3b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 24 May 2011 23:41:24 -0700 (PDT) David Griffith wrote: > What posessed him to do those pics? A distinctive sense of humor. :-) -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 14:49:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:49:20 -0400 Subject: How much do you like your PDP11? In-Reply-To: <20110525214631.e183c3b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110522192640.f3d19f10.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110525214631.e183c3b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDD5D40.9010108@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 3:46 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> What posessed him to do those pics? > > A distinctive sense of humor. :-) That's one way to put it. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 25 14:55:18 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 21:55:18 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DDC305E.2070507@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110525215518.a03704ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 25 May 2011 18:50:42 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus > and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? As far as I understood the docs the B012 is just a TRAM carrier with some C004 link switch chips. It is VME form factor, but the pinout of the connector is very non-VME. I think it was build that way so that you can use a generic VME card cage and you had to provide your own backplane. The (damaged) card cage I pulled the boards from supports this. It hadn't a real backplane at all. Only connectors with some hand soldered wires, mostly for power. There where cables hanging out where the host was connected. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed May 25 14:57:30 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:57:30 -0400 Subject: Loading software onto a real PDP11 In-Reply-To: References: <20110520232006.GY2700@n0jcf.net> <20110521225750.GC16043@n0jcf.net> <4DD90A6E.7080705@verizon.net> <4DD98BF8.5050808@verizon.net> <4DDBD05D.3040304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDD5F2A.4060006@verizon.net> On 05/25/2011 10:10 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > Since I'm finally home and not busy, I've gotten a chance to review at > the BitSavers documentation for the VT-103. It did support having a > TU58 crammed into the space under the normal VT-100 CRT. It was a Q18 > 4x4 serpentine backplane with lots of customization/"specialness" to > work in the VT-100 enclosure. Put an 11/23 and an MXV11-BF into row > one and you have three rows of quad slots left in the system. (Which > should provide more then enough space for expansion. As you've got CPU > and 128KB RAM, 2 SLU, clock and ROM all in those two boards.) I'd > probably put an RQDX3 or CMD CQD-22X SCSI controller for mass storage, > and another 128KB RAM board, to bring the system to a full 256KB of > RAM. And that still leaves two rows empty. What else can one stick > into the VT-103? Well, I'm sure you can think of something. (For > absolute hilarity, since RSTS/E 10.1 can run on an 11/23 with 256KB > RAM, add a DELQA, DLVJ-1 and two DZQ-11 modules and have a desktop > timesharing box with network connectivity.) > why not find a suitable Qbus uVAX and stuff it in there. Thats been done and VMS supports networking and is available. > I would prefer a real VT-100 (or VT-125), however I have the slight issues of: Vt103 and VT100 are essentially the same. > 1. Can't find anything in Hamilton. Call Dave Dunfield, not that close but he know the locality better than me. > 2. Don't have money. Can't help, thats unfortunately a common problem. > 3. I can't drive any where to pick anything up (because of visual > impairment - read: blindness in one eye, and crap vision in the other > - I can't drive a car). > Thats a limitation but not as serious a problem as finding the gear is the first step. > So that's why I'm currently limited to using a PC. Well that and a > slight lack of space. > You don't want to see my room, 10x14 ft ignoring closets there are 34 computers, my ham radio and my workbench where I build stuff and it's my business desk. > I had a silly idea of what to do with spare QBUS 11 but it would be > more silly then anything. Since I'm a bit into the steampunk > aesthetic; built a QBUS backplane and PSU into an ornate small cabinet > so that it looks like Victorian era furniture, and put a table-top > KSR-33 (caseless) or KSR-35 (either caseless or with case) on top of > the cabinet and have a "Victorian-11". (Since the front panel on most > QBUS 11 systems is so simplistic one could also make the panel look > similarly "old." It would be an interesting conversation piece, but > mildly odd in apperance. Though, to keep the look you'd have to mount > the disk drives behind a small door (otherwise you have Victorian > furniture... with a floppy disk drive in it). > Nothing to stop you from doing that. A loose backplane and power supply is all you need. Insure there is plenty of transverse airflow across the boards and your good. Allison From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 25 15:01:29 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:01:29 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110525220129.57fbb21c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 25 May 2011 18:25:13 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > And yet you just said that you know waht a transputer is... I know what a Transputer is. But I don't know how they where used, i.e. what a typical setup of a complete Transputer system with software developement facilities looked like, feelt like, how the workflow was and what software was used in what way. I.e. I don't know anything around the Transputers. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed May 25 15:03:14 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:03:14 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDD6082.6060408@verizon.net> On 05/25/2011 01:50 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ran across this while searching for some tek stuff. Fellow has the > boards from the first version of the Minuteman guidance computer > (Autonetics D17B, late 50s, discrete transistor) laid out as wall art > in his living room. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6ODi7qSpYg > > Explains a little about what happened to those computers: donated to > universities in the early 70s when they were phased out and apparently > inspired a few papers and user group discussions. The CHM has one, I > wonder if any others survive. > e.g. http://www.stormingmedia.us/75/7570/0757067.html > > (looks like a few people here were discussing this last Sep on the VCF > forum) > > Also a few escaped the unis to persons. I used to know someone that had one and helped him power it and try to program it. This was back around '71 and I have no clue where things got to. I do know it was bear to program and the logic was temperature sensitive. Can't se that I understood it then but it helped me learn. Allison From legalize at xmission.com Wed May 25 15:04:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:04:15 -0600 Subject: identify this computer? Message-ID: Sorry for the slight blur, it was taken with a camera phone. Any ideas? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 25 15:07:38 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:07:38 -0700 Subject: identify this computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks like an HP-2100A On May 25, 2011 1:06 PM, "Richard" wrote: > Sorry for the slight blur, it was taken with a camera phone. > > > Any ideas? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 25 15:10:18 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:10:18 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110525221018.f0735373.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 25 May 2011 18:25:13 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > Yes. I know what Transputers are and that they are very, _very_, > > _*very*_ rare. Really rare, not in the ePay sense "rare". The bigger > Are they? I am a dumpser diver for more then 20 years. I visited museums and attend the Vintage Computing Festival Europa most of the time. I have seen a lot of wired things. Yet, this was the first time I came across Transputers. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed May 25 15:10:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:10:04 -0400 Subject: identify this computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDD621C.9000902@neurotica.com> On 5/25/11 4:04 PM, Richard wrote: > Sorry for the slight blur, it was taken with a camera phone. > > > Any ideas? That's an HP-2100A, isn't it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed May 25 15:21:05 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:21:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: identify this computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 May 2011, Richard wrote: > Sorry for the slight blur, it was taken with a camera phone. > > > Any ideas? HP 2100A? http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=98 > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed May 25 15:21:22 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:21:22 +0200 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110525222122.6b765436.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 24 May 2011 22:26:24 -0700 dwight elvey wrote: > I've only used a logic analyzer twice in 30+ years of > fixing all kinds of electronics. I used a logic analyzer to debug, or better, to verify the correctness of software. A real nifty LA can snoop the CPU bus and give you a complete assembler backtrace of the running programm. Close to things you did with CPU in circuit emulators in the old days or things that you do with JTAG today. I own a LA, rescued from a dumpster. Though, I used it only once for said verification and that was 12 years ago. Ohhh, hell. Already 12 years... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jws at jwsss.com Wed May 25 15:29:42 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:29:42 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDD5BD0.7000605@verizon.net> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDD5BD0.7000605@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDD66B6.5020703@jwsss.com> To Richard and Allison, we just have the "computer" units and I have not seen themm personally to speculate on how they might work. One other unit was dismanteled and was going to become art, and was retrieved along with its card cage, but that is all I know. I believe that this is one of the university units described and the university discarded it to a professor, then the professor discarded it to us. It may have been functional when the department which had it was using it, don't know. I'm not going to be able to do much with it any time soon, but the Bitsaver's archive has an empty directory for the D17. Not wanting Al to think about it, just looked to see if there was anything. was the "disk" solid state, or was it a drum, as was the storage for the LGP-30? sounds like the same sort of situation, since its storage was on drum as well. Jim On 5/25/2011 12:43 PM, allison wrote: > On 05/25/2011 12:31 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article<4DDD2B86.40108 at jwsss.com>, >> jim s writes: >> >>> John B and I have one of the units + all the cards from a second one. >>> We need the disk drive. for the unit to have it function. >> Wouldn't it be better to emulate the disk at this point? >> >> Or are you saying you need the *contents* of the disk in order to make >> it funciton? > > The machine is serial so you need the disk as it's both program store > and it serves as "registers". It would be possible to simulate all that > using shift registers of the correct length. > > Allison > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 15:47:48 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:47:48 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDD66B6.5020703@jwsss.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDD5BD0.7000605@verizon.net> <4DDD66B6.5020703@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DDD6AF4.40001@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/11 1:29 PM, jim s wrote: > I'm not going to be able to do much with it any time soon, but the Bitsaver's archive has an empty directory for the D17. Not wanting Al to think about it, just looked to see if there was anything. > I have slowly been working on one of the D17 users group proceedings. I also bought the D17 documents from NTIS on fiche that I need to scan Obviously I'm interested in finding more documentation, but I'm not too hopeful. > was the "disk" solid state, or was it a drum, as was the storage for the LGP-30? It is a disk. Look at the docs on the Autonetics Recomp-II for hints on how the D17 works. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed May 25 16:03:54 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:03:54 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDD6AF4.40001@bitsavers.org> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDD5BD0.7000605@verizon.net> <4DDD66B6.5020703@jwsss.com> <4DDD6AF4.40001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Obviously I'm interested in finding more documentation, but I'm not too hopeful. Considering that the release of the machines was a big mistake - basically a huge breach in security protocol - the chances of finding any more docs are pretty slim. Scavenge what has already been released, because the rest are probably classified to the hilt. -- Will From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 25 16:44:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:44:58 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDD6AF4.40001@bitsavers.org> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDD5BD0.7000605@verizon.net> <4DDD66B6.5020703@jwsss.com> <4DDD6AF4.40001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DDD785A.2060504@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/11 1:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 5/25/11 1:29 PM, jim s wrote: > >> I'm not going to be able to do much with it any time soon, but the Bitsaver's archive has an empty directory for the D17. Not wanting Al to think about it, just looked to see if there was anything. >> > > I have slowly been working on one of the D17 users group proceedings. looks like some more of the 2nd proceedings are up since the last time I looked http://www.insinga.com/aron/antique/d17b2/ also, one of the NTIS manuals was on line so I've put it up on bitsavers From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 25 16:52:12 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 14:52:12 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> Message-ID: I guess I'm too subtle - as if anyone would believe that! :-) LCM was the winner of this auction. We will ship it to our location in Seattle and put it on the list for restoration. So, this is "official" notice that we're looking for documentation and software. Thanks! -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:26 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction > > ahh well... hopefully the winner was someone here. Certainly it would > seem that it was recognized as an item of interest (went for $1800!) > > On 5/25/2011 10:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/25/11 8:58 AM, Ian King wrote: > > > >> ...or maybe someone like the Living Computer Museum. :-) Al, do > you > >> have any docs for this? I wasn't able to find any on BitSavers. > >> Cheers -- Ian > > > > I think all I have is a handbook. The 70 series was mostly sold while > > Sperry owned the Varian > > computer line, and I've not seen much from that time. > > > > http://dimka.com/daily/external-pages/spies.com-~aek-orphanage.html > > > > has a copy of my old spies web page. I did chase down "Second Source > > Computers" around 5 years > > ago, but they weren't very helpful. > > > > > > > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed May 25 17:47:47 2011 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 23:47:47 +0100 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDD8713.9000201@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus > and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? I've never used > one. Yes, I think so. We had some at INMOS just to hold TRAMs in a rack. >>B004 or B008 are host interfaces for ISA bus. B012 and B014 > > Hang on... Are you now saying the B012 is a host adapter? No, I mis-wrote that! Sorry! I meant the B011 is a host interface. > Thinking back, the B011 was a VME cars with a trnasputer on it, but I > think it was normally used if you wanted to make a VME ssytem with the > transputer as the main processor. The VME bus was interfaces to the > transputer memory bus and you could drive normal VME cards with it. Oh dear, now I'd better dig up my INMOS databooks and check! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From shumaker at att.net Wed May 25 18:36:12 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 16:36:12 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> Message-ID: <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> well then! totally cool. at least my lusting was in support of a good cause. steve On 5/25/2011 2:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > I guess I'm too subtle - as if anyone would believe that! :-) > > LCM was the winner of this auction. We will ship it to our location in Seattle and put it on the list for restoration. So, this is "official" notice that we're looking for documentation and software. Thanks! -- Ian > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:26 AM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction >> >> ahh well... hopefully the winner was someone here. Certainly it would >> seem that it was recognized as an item of interest (went for $1800!) >> >> On 5/25/2011 10:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> On 5/25/11 8:58 AM, Ian King wrote: >>> >>> >>>> ...or maybe someone like the Living Computer Museum. :-) Al, do >>>> >> you >> >>>> have any docs for this? I wasn't able to find any on BitSavers. >>>> Cheers -- Ian >>>> >>> I think all I have is a handbook. The 70 series was mostly sold while >>> Sperry owned the Varian >>> computer line, and I've not seen much from that time. >>> >>> http://dimka.com/daily/external-pages/spies.com-~aek-orphanage.html >>> >>> has a copy of my old spies web page. I did chase down "Second Source >>> Computers" around 5 years >>> ago, but they weren't very helpful. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> > From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 25 18:40:35 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 18:40:35 -0500 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great Find Tom! One thing I'm not sure about is weather you have a 12 slot or 20 slot box. The 12 has one G8016 or G8018, and the 20 slot (which is a LOT heavier) has two of the regulators. I have memory boards, and if you need any feel free to contact me off list. Good Luck! Paul On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Tom publix wrote: > So I finally got my hands on a pdp8/a at the University auction. It's the > omnibus model that's built into a desk and called the Classic, short for > CLASSroom Interactive Computer. I had no idea it was so heavy as it was > loaded for me into the back of my pickup. I discovered it must be real heavy > as the my F-150 groaned when loaded and when I came home and unloaded I > almost herniated myself. There it sits, almost complete (without the VT52) > but has an extra RL01/RL02 board. Is it the desk that gives it the weight. I > know the dual RX01 are heavy, but the are the cage, power supply and boards > real heavy in these things or is the DESK to blame. Until I put it on > something that I can move around, it will sit in my driveway. I can run a > terminal cable and an extension cord out to it to maybe boot it up after I > do some more research on it to see if all the boards are there. > > One thing is not clear.n looking at the board numbers, it seems it doesn't > have a memory board, but it might have memory aboard the CPU card. Is this > right? It uses the newer cmos memory. It has the three board set that also > was used in the KIT-1, but it also has a variety of other boards that I'll > write down as soon as I can. > > Cheers > > Tom > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 25 19:16:49 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:16:49 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> Message-ID: Several replies come to mind, and that's where they're going to stay. :-) Thanks for bringing this to the attention of the list. Cheers -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 4:36 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction > > well then! totally cool. > > at least my lusting was in support of a good cause. > > > steve > > On 5/25/2011 2:52 PM, Ian King wrote: > > I guess I'm too subtle - as if anyone would believe that! :-) > > > > LCM was the winner of this auction. We will ship it to our location > in Seattle and put it on the list for restoration. So, this is > "official" notice that we're looking for documentation and software. > Thanks! -- Ian > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve shumaker > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 11:26 AM > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction > >> > >> ahh well... hopefully the winner was someone here. Certainly it > would > >> seem that it was recognized as an item of interest (went for > $1800!) > >> > >> On 5/25/2011 10:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >>> On 5/25/11 8:58 AM, Ian King wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> ...or maybe someone like the Living Computer Museum. :-) Al, do > >>>> > >> you > >> > >>>> have any docs for this? I wasn't able to find any on BitSavers. > >>>> Cheers -- Ian > >>>> > >>> I think all I have is a handbook. The 70 series was mostly sold > while > >>> Sperry owned the Varian > >>> computer line, and I've not seen much from that time. > >>> > >>> http://dimka.com/daily/external-pages/spies.com-~aek-orphanage.html > >>> > >>> has a copy of my old spies web page. I did chase down "Second > Source > >>> Computers" around 5 years > >>> ago, but they weren't very helpful. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:24:26 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:24:26 -0700 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ok, My initial brief inspection of boards, I missed one. It's the M8417 which is the memory board. YEAH!! So, The back plane is populated by the following boards, From top to bottom: M8315 M8317 M8316 empty M8417 empty M8410 M8411 empty 3 slots M8433 empty 3 slots M842 empty M8655 empty M8357 It appears its a 20 slot back plane of course, there are a few empty spaces, is this important on an omnibus back plane?, Or should the boards be continuous?. It seems that there are a rat's nest of cables balled up in the back cavity, so I would assume all cables are present but I will unravel them all tomorrow. The console is one of the minimal consoles and not the programmers. There is a broken latch on one of the floppy drives, The desk has all four casters, but don't work well, I will need to put it on a wheeled dolly anyway to move it around. Usually when I acquire a classic computer in one piece, it means that it was working when taken out of service. It's when parts are missing (probably cannibalized for other working units) it usually means the computer did not work. Aside from the monitor a VT50 (which may show up at another auction) was missing. It even had some of the pdp handbooks. But alas, not OS/8 diskettes :-( Cheers Tom P On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 4:40 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Great Find Tom! > > One thing I'm not sure about is weather you have a 12 slot or 20 slot > box. The 12 has one G8016 or G8018, and the 20 slot (which is a LOT > heavier) has two of the regulators. I have memory boards, and if you > need any feel free to contact me off list. > > Good Luck! > > Paul > > On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:22 PM, Tom publix > wrote: > > So I finally got my hands on a pdp8/a at the University auction. It's the > > omnibus model that's built into a desk and called the Classic, short for > > CLASSroom Interactive Computer. I had no idea it was so heavy as it was > > loaded for me into the back of my pickup. I discovered it must be real > heavy > > as the my F-150 groaned when loaded and when I came home and unloaded I > > almost herniated myself. There it sits, almost complete (without the > VT52) > > but has an extra RL01/RL02 board. Is it the desk that gives it the > weight. I > > know the dual RX01 are heavy, but the are the cage, power supply and > boards > > real heavy in these things or is the DESK to blame. Until I put it on > > something that I can move around, it will sit in my driveway. I can run a > > terminal cable and an extension cord out to it to maybe boot it up after > I > > do some more research on it to see if all the boards are there. > > > > One thing is not clear.n looking at the board numbers, it seems it > doesn't > > have a memory board, but it might have memory aboard the CPU card. Is > this > > right? It uses the newer cmos memory. It has the three board set that > also > > was used in the KIT-1, but it also has a variety of other boards that > I'll > > write down as soon as I can. > > > > Cheers > > > > Tom > > > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:29:50 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 17:29:50 -0700 Subject: identify this computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Was that one of Roy's stash? I had my eye on several of his HP's, Did you get it, you rat! Alas, I never pulled the trigger on bringing it home, as I have no room as it is. Cheers Tom On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Richard wrote: > Sorry for the slight blur, it was taken with a camera phone. > > > Any ideas? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:53:50 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:53:50 -0500 Subject: Heavy, Heavy Metal. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:24 PM, Tom publix wrote: > Ok, > > My initial brief inspection of boards, I missed one. It's the M8417 which is > the memory board. YEAH!! There you go. > So, The back plane is populated by the following boards, From top to bottom: > > M8315 > M8317 > M8316 The KK8A, the KM8AA, and the DKC8AA - all standard. You might want to check the M8317 for a pair of socketed ceramic DIPs. There should be some letters and numbers stenciled on them that will indicate which PROM set you have. There are three sets I know of, each with a slightly different mix of bootstrap routines on them. Since you have an RL8A (M8433), I think there is only one set with the RL boot on them, so it's likely you are fine as you are. That set should have at least RX and RL. It _may_ be documented with the RL8A manuals; I can't remember for certain. It's newer than the 1978 minicomputer handbook, so I don't think you will find the devices listed there. > M8417 You can check the handle for what variety of card this is, but since you lack a KT8A, it's a good guess that it's either 16K (half populated) or 32K (all populated). > M8410 > M8411 An FPP8A. Never seen one, but I hear they are uncommon and desirable (especially if you have a lot of FORTRAN-IV code to run). > M8433 Your RL8A. > M842 XY8E X/Y plotter control. I don't know much about it, but it might be documented in the multi-volume PDP-8/e/f/m manual set. > M8655 KL8JA serial card. > M8357 RX8E - works with RX01 or RX02 drives. > It appears its a 20 slot back plane of course, there are a few empty spaces, > is this important on an omnibus back plane?, Or should the boards be > continuous?. Empty spaces are fine on the Omnibus. > It seems that there are a rat's nest of cables balled up in the back cavity, > so I would assume all cables are present but I will unravel them all > tomorrow. > > The console is one of the minimal consoles and not the programmers. That's common, especially in the desk where you normally can't reach the front panel. Since you have two kinds of mass storage and a bootstrap board (a typical arrangement), ordinary operation is to halt the machine and toggle the bootstrap line to bring up whichever device is selected on the KM8AA. It's a bit of a pain to switch devices, so if you have floppies that need to be booted, one way to handle that is pick the RX8E and have a standard OS/8 diskette you can use to re-boot via software to bring up a drive on the RL8A. > There is a broken latch on one of the floppy drives, Unfortunate. The RX drives are Calcomp mechanisms, which were once common, so perhaps you can find a replacement latch or carriage assembly. > The desk has all four casters, but don't work well... Unfortunate. ISTR the casters pull out of the tubular legs fairly easily (I needed to do that to let the desk fit in a station wagon. Perhaps you can pull the casters and recondition them. > Aside from the > monitor a VT50 (which may show up at another auction) was missing. It even > had some of the pdp handbooks. But alas, not OS/8 diskettes :-( The VT50 is, in my experience, less common, but also less desirable for regular use because it only has enough internal memory for 12 lines of text (vs 24 lines for the VT52). You will probably find it easier to lay hands on a newer DEC terminal and use the built-in VT52 emulation. I don't recall any OS/8 programs written for VT100 escape codes, but any that do more than just scroll text will be written to send VT50/VT52 escape codes. Sounds like a great system. -ethan From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:01:14 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 21:01:14 -0500 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> Message-ID: was there a biding war or did 1 person only bid? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 25 21:20:55 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:20:55 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: <4DDD23B0.4070108@neurotica.com> References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com>,,<4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to>, <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com>, , <4DDD23B0.4070108@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi Dave I've had mine for a number of year now. It was from eBay though. I had it up at the MakerFaire in San Mateo last weekend. I was using it to do spirographs on a plotter. It seems that Bob R. has a pdf of it in his scanned stuff :) He sent me a copy. Now I'm happy. I do have a 766 unit that plugs into a PC ISA bus. It has connectors for the GP-6 with Microhybrid so I need to make an adapter to convert it to the LGP-20's pins. Dwight > Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 11:43:44 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Comdyna analog computer stuff > > On 5/25/11 11:40 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Does anyone have a copy of the Comdyna Microhybrid I manual? > > You didn't score that system that was on eBay awhile back, did you? > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed May 25 21:22:45 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 19:22:45 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction > > was there a biding war or did 1 person only bid? It wasn't a bidding war as much as a friendly competition. :-) One of the other bidders has already contacted me to ask if we were the 'other guy' and confirm that the machine is going to a good home. Strangely enough, it seems to not be going anywhere. I've received mail from the current (corporate) owner who claims that the machine is NOT for sale, and was entered into the auction by error. I'm still chasing down details but it appears the transaction will be voided. Assuming this plays out as it seems it will, my next task is to try to be certain the machine is in fact going to a new corporate home and not to a scrapper. -- Ian From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed May 25 21:33:25 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 21:33:25 -0500 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 9:22 PM, Ian King wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness > > Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:01 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction > > > > was there a biding war or did 1 person only bid? > > It wasn't a bidding war as much as a friendly competition. :-) One of the > other bidders has already contacted me to ask if we were the 'other guy' and > confirm that the machine is going to a good home. > > Strangely enough, it seems to not be going anywhere. I've received mail > from the current (corporate) owner who claims that the machine is NOT for > sale, and was entered into the auction by error. I'm still chasing down > details but it appears the transaction will be voided. Assuming > this plays out as it seems it will, my next task is to try to be certain the > machine is in fact going to a new corporate home and not to a scrapper. -- > Ian > shibby! From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed May 25 22:02:01 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 20:02:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <885289.11321.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Strangely enough, it seems to not be going anywhere.? > I've received mail from the current (corporate) owner who > claims that the machine is NOT for sale, and was entered > into the auction by error.? It looked like the machine had some Air Force property stickers on it. It is possible that the "owner" did not have title to the machine. If I read the auction description right, the sale the machine was a part of was a Honeywell surplus sale. They do defense contracting, and might have simply been in possession of gear purchased on contract. This can be a problem for universities disposing of surplus as well. --Bill From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed May 25 22:03:37 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 22:03:37 -0500 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow In-Reply-To: <201105191637.p4JGbodE006902@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> References: <4DD53782.60300@tx.rr.com> <201105191637.p4JGbodE006902@omr-d33.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DDDC309.70402@tx.rr.com> Kind folks, For those who may be interested, I finally got the Borland TASM 5.0 and debugger books shipped off to Al this afternoon. I sent them via "media mail" (thanks Al, saved a bit vs. using a flat rate box), and I think the clerk said something like "book rate should get there in 6 to 10 days". Later, Charlie Carothers From shumaker at att.net Wed May 25 22:29:38 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 20:29:38 -0700 Subject: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction In-Reply-To: References: <4DD9BA99.4000403@compsys.to> <4DDBDADD.401@att.net> <4DDBDF6D.8040104@bitsavers.org> <4DDD3869.6040107@bitsavers.org> <4DDD49A0.9040404@att.net> <4DDD926C.1010802@att.net> Message-ID: <4DDDC922.2010002@att.net> that's interesting! I've been watching it since they posted the catalog several weeks ago and the status did change but then was changed back. steve On 5/25/2011 7:22 PM, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian Stoness >> Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2011 7:01 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: DOVE Bid Sperry Univac Mini at auction >> >> was there a biding war or did 1 person only bid? >> > It wasn't a bidding war as much as a friendly competition. :-) One of the other bidders has already contacted me to ask if we were the 'other guy' and confirm that the machine is going to a good home. > > Strangely enough, it seems to not be going anywhere. I've received mail from the current (corporate) owner who claims that the machine is NOT for sale, and was entered into the auction by error. I'm still chasing down details but it appears the transaction will be voided. Assuming this plays out as it seems it will, my next task is to try to be certain the machine is in fact going to a new corporate home and not to a scrapper. -- Ian > > From emu at e-bbes.com Thu May 26 00:40:08 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 07:40:08 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110525220129.57fbb21c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110525220129.57fbb21c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <4DDDE7B8.9000008@e-bbes.com> On 2011-05-25 22:01, Jochen Kunz wrote: > I know what a Transputer is. But I don't know how they where used, i.e. We made a laser printer controller, which used a Transputer. The DRAM interface was just to simple to do ;-) I guess, I still have some PC interface board for them. Cheers From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Wed May 25 11:50:29 2011 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 12:50:29 -0400 Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) Message-ID: You know, it all depends on the person. Personally, I call the logic analyzer the "tool of last resort" or "the dreaded logic analyzer". When you need it, you need it and nothing else will do. But often you can get a long way with a 'scope and a logic probe (in the ancient days when strobes were easily accessible). When you're debugging a 32 bit bus and you've got probes hanging all over the place, then you know you are deep in hell --- one of the circles that Dante didn't describe. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed May 25 14:38:21 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 15:38:21 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B / was Re: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: The disk drive was actually used as memory of the D-17B (and also as the storage for the registers I believe, but I can't remember, and BitSavers has no docs for the D17). But it essence, the D17's disk is similar to the disk of the Autonetics RECOMP II (which DOES have documents on BitSavers), so for a better general idea of what the disk was used for, go check those documents. The contents of the disk drive, though interesting, are probably not going to be easy to get... and they can probably be summed up as: "Aim for Moscow and go boom." On 25 May 2011 12:31, Richard wrote: > > In article <4DDD2B86.40108 at jwsss.com>, > ? ?jim s writes: > >> John B and I have one of the units + all the cards from a second one. >> We need the disk drive. ?for the unit to have it function. > > Wouldn't it be better to emulate the disk at this point? > > Or are you saying you need the *contents* of the disk in order to make > it funciton? > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed May 25 19:27:41 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 20:27:41 -0400 Subject: Ferro Resonance transformer and IBM Message-ID: > From:?h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl > Date:?Tue, 24 May 2011 17:08:31 +0200 > > I am restoring an old IBM terminal with a ferro resonance transformer. > I slowly increase the prim voltage with a variac. > At the same time I measure the sec voltages. > The normal voltage at the prim site is 240V > > At +/- 130V (prim) I have already normal voltage at the sec site. > (+5V , -18V etc) > The sec side is loaded and contains no regulators. > > Anyone any idea why at 130v everything is normal. > I don't dear to go to 220V > > Thanks for all your replies. > > Henk-- I just repaired two DEC ferroresonant power supplies that are 115VAC input. From 45VAC to 115VAC input the +10/-15VDC output is at the normal voltage. What you are seeing is the ferroresonant circuit at work. Our power supplies lasted just a few hours before the AC capacitor failed. I was able to find replacement "run" capacitors on eBay. You can't use "start" capacitors because they are not designed for a 100% duty cycle. Michael Thompson From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu May 26 00:56:42 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 07:56:42 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20110526075642.9a454146.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 24 May 2011 19:17:24 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Ah... Are you saying that you don't ahve any form of link adapter. That > is a mahor problem. No link adapter. > My sgugestions is that you look out for some kind of host card with a > link adapter on it. That will get you started. I suppose getting a link adapter is as hard as to get Transputers. So most likely I'll not find one at all. I could build one myself (good reason to teach myself about FPGAs) but I suspect this will be a lot of hard, non-trivial work. This makes this challenge even more interresting. But I simply don't have the time to do all this interresting work. :-( -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu May 26 05:42:09 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:42:09 +0000 Subject: Borland Turbo Assembler doc? Ping Al Kossow References: <4DDDC309.70402@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <201105261042.p4QAg6f5002007@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> Charlie wrote: > Kind folks, > For those who may be interested, I finally got the Borland TASM 5.0 and > debugger books shipped off to Al this afternoon. I sent them via "media > mail" (thanks Al, saved a bit vs. using a flat rate box), and I think the > clerk said something like "book rate should get there in 6 to 10 days". > Later, > Charlie Carothers Hey thanks a lot, Charlie. I hope I can return the favor sometime. Happy Thursday to you and the group. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68X, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 26 08:59:47 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 06:59:47 -0700 Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com > > You know, it all depends on the person. Personally, I call the logic > analyzer the "tool of last resort" or "the dreaded logic analyzer". When > you need it, you need it and nothing else will do. But often you can get a > long way with a 'scope and a logic probe (in the ancient days when strobes > were easily accessible). > > When you're debugging a 32 bit bus and you've got probes hanging all over > the place, then you know you are deep in hell --- one of the circles that > Dante didn't describe. Hi Yes, I'd say the same. Even then, I've found that the sequence to capture some special event is beyond what the manufacture though anyone would want to do. One of the times I used one, I built a special outside circuit just to condition the trigger. Actually, I was thinking, one of the nicer things to have in general is a ROM-ICE. Much quiker than blowing EPROMs with test code. I have one that I got a few months back but haven't had the chance to play with it much. Dwight From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 26 09:05:08 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 07:05:08 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > The disk drive was actually used as memory of the D-17B (and also as > the storage for the registers I believe, but I can't remember, and > BitSavers has no docs for the D17). But it essence, the D17's disk is > similar to the disk of the Autonetics RECOMP II (which DOES have > documents on BitSavers), so for a better general idea of what the disk > was used for, go check those documents. I would expect that the disk drive also has at least one pre-recorded timing track that provided some clocking signal(s) for the machine. It was very common in the bit serial disk/drum-based main memory computers to use one or more tracks with pre-recorded timing information on them to generate some or all of the clocking for the rest of the logic. This was a convenient source for clock pulses that were synchronized with the various other data recorded on the disk/drum, and also helped correct for the small rotational speed variations of the motor that spins the disk/drum, since the clock pulses governing the operation of the machine skewed along with the data. As such, there probably is some "content" on the disk that is required to get the machine running, in the form of clock pulses. Of course, if the characteristics of the clock signal(s) are known, it's not a complex matter to reproduce them with external logic. The high school I went to had a computer in the computer lab made by 3M (the same people that make Scotch Tape and tons of other stuff). It was a process control machine that was donated to the school by Natural Gas utility that used it to monitor and manage gas pipelines. It was a 24-bit, bit-serial architecture, with two main registers (A and B), and main memory was a magnetic drum that held 8K words. Opcode was 5 bits, and each instruction had both an operand and next instruction address. Disk was organized as block/track/sector, so addresses were formed this way. The drum provided a master clock signal that was used by the rest of the machine for timing. The motor that drove the drum was an inexpensive motor much like that that drives a sewing machine. There was some phase-lock circuitry on the clock signal to let the machine know when the drum was up to speed, which would then make the machine go "ready", but there was no active feedback to control the speed of the motor beyond that. If the clock rate from the drum fell outside a window of tolerance, then the machine would lose ready state, and freeze where it was at. The drum was belt driven and one time the belt broke, and the machine froze. I was able to remove power from the motor, put on a spare belt (looked a lot like a vacuum cleaner belt), re-apply power to the motor, and once the drum came up to speed, the machine resumed what it was doing without a hitch. -Rick From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 26 09:49:31 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:49:31 -0400 Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:59 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > ?Actually, I was thinking, one of the nicer things to have in general > is a ROM-ICE. Much quiker than blowing EPROMs with test > code. Oh, yeah. > ?I have one that I got a few months back but haven't had the > chance to play with it much. I (still) have a couple of Grammar Engine ROM emulators (I used to work with the founder) - a ROMulator and a PromICE - for what we did, both products worked the same, and the ROMulator download application was even available for VMS (because we compiled it for Grammar Engine for them to distribute). For traditional embedded development (MCU plus external ROM), they are awesome. My first experience with ROM emulators was enough to sell me on them for life - I was writing the firmware for our VAXBI version of our COMBOARD (a 68010 with 2MB of local RAM, 128K of local ROM, and a Z8530 dual serial chip) and I was able to plug the ROMulator into our target board, hang the box inside the VAXBI cage, then close the lid on the thin serial cable. The arrangement allowed me to upload new versions of the code without shutting down the VAX, pulling the board, pulling the ROMs, replacing the ROMs, replacing the board, then starting the VAX back up - I even put the upload commands at the end of the Makefile, so rather than 30 minutes per revision cycle that real EPROMs would have taken, we could get a new version of the code running less than 5 minutes after saving the changes. It's all easier now, of course, since modern microcontrollers have onboard FLASH and it's trivial to push code over a serial or USB link, with little or no external hardware, but in the 1980s, it was an amazing thing. -ethan From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu May 26 10:02:27 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:02:27 -0400 Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:50, Mark Kahrs wrote: > You know, it all depends on the person. ?Personally, I call the logic > analyzer the "tool of last resort" or "the dreaded logic analyzer". ?When > you need it, you need it and nothing else will do. ?But often you can get a > long way with a 'scope and a logic probe (in the ancient days when strobes > were easily accessible). As with everything, the logic analyzer is just a tool, and is the right tool for those jobs that require a logic analyzer. If you're debugging a sequencing circuit, or other heaps of logic that can't easily be compartmentalized, it can be the tool that will solve the problem in minutes rather than days. Since these days most "random bunch of logic" is in FPGAs and their ilk, pretty much every HDL development tool comes with a simulator that is effectively a logic analyzer on virtual signals. And it's very useful. When I was working for Castleton debugging DSPs (I was hired as a software guy) I shocked everyone by fixing a random intermittent glitch by grabbing the board and hooking up the logic analyzer: I found that one control signal was changing at the same time as the clock signal, thus it wasn't always latched correctly. Got the hardware guys to reprogram the FPGA to move the signal 1/4 clock ahead in time, and the thing turned out to be rock solid. My boss had no idea how I did it, and I gained major respect from the hardware group. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 26 11:54:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:54:32 -0600 Subject: identify this equipment? Message-ID: OK, you guys were so good at identifying that other equipment from its photo, how about these? They look like HP cabinets, but I didn't feel like digging them out to look closer, just snapped a photo. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 26 11:59:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:59:24 -0400 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDE86EC.6050707@neurotica.com> On 5/26/11 12:54 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, you guys were so good at identifying that other equipment from > its photo, how about these? They look like HP cabinets, but I didn't > feel like digging them out to look closer, just snapped a photo. > > The blue text on the left a few inches down from the dark brown top area looks very much like a Tektronix logo. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:06:22 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:06:22 +0100 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MyTektronic catalog put two related items to that pic part of M4115B with the 3D wireframe option or part of 4991S1 graphic input station (a M4115B being part of the system) Dave Caroline On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Richard wrote: > OK, you guys were so good at identifying that other equipment from > its photo, how about these? ?They look like HP cabinets, but I didn't > feel like digging them out to look closer, just snapped a photo. > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 26 13:23:27 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:23:27 -0400 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDE9A9F.4090301@atarimuseum.com> Maybe they are left overs from the original Battlestar Galactica bridge set from the 70's.... weren't all of the wireframe displays all done by tektronix? :-) Dave Caroline wrote: > MyTektronic catalog put two related items to that pic > > part of M4115B with the 3D wireframe option > > or > > part of 4991S1 graphic input station (a M4115B being part of the system) > > Dave Caroline > > On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Richard wrote: > >> OK, you guys were so good at identifying that other equipment from >> its photo, how about these? They look like HP cabinets, but I didn't >> feel like digging them out to look closer, just snapped a photo. >> >> >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download >> >> >> Legalize Adulthood! >> >> > > From ittybittybytes at gmail.com Thu May 26 13:33:25 2011 From: ittybittybytes at gmail.com (Tom publix) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 11:33:25 -0700 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDE9A9F.4090301@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DDE9A9F.4090301@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At the very least, they used the 4051 as a prop! http://battlestar-galactica.navajo.cz/battlestar-galactica-2.jpg On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 11:23 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Maybe they are left overs from the original Battlestar Galactica bridge set > from the 70's.... weren't all of the wireframe displays all done by > tektronix? :-) > > > > > Dave Caroline wrote: > >> MyTektronic catalog put two related items to that pic >> >> part of M4115B with the 3D wireframe option >> >> or >> >> part of 4991S1 graphic input station (a M4115B being part of the system) >> >> Dave Caroline >> >> On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 5:54 PM, Richard wrote: >> >> >>> OK, you guys were so good at identifying that other equipment from >>> its photo, how about these? They look like HP cabinets, but I didn't >>> feel like digging them out to look closer, just snapped a photo. >>> >>> < >>> http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/tmp/Photo_BC168B00-4C04-E083-3201-B6DAC3791E63.jpg >>> > >>> -- >>> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for >>> download >>> >> > >>> >>> Legalize Adulthood! >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu May 26 14:32:40 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 15:32:40 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> On 05/26/2011 10:05 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> The disk drive was actually used as memory of the D-17B (and also as >> the storage for the registers I believe, but I can't remember, and >> BitSavers has no docs for the D17). But it essence, the D17's disk is >> similar to the disk of the Autonetics RECOMP II (which DOES have >> documents on BitSavers), so for a better general idea of what the disk >> was used for, go check those documents. > > I would expect that the disk drive also has at least one pre-recorded timing track that provided some clocking signal(s) for the machine. It was very common in the bit serial disk/drum-based main memory computers to use one or more tracks with pre-recorded timing information on them to generate some or all of the clocking for the rest of the logic. This was a convenient source for clock pulses that were synchronized with the various other data recorded on the disk/drum, and also helped correct for the small rotational speed variations of the motor that spins the disk/drum, since the clock pulses governing the operation of the machine skewed along with the data. > > As such, there probably is some "content" on the disk that is required to get the machine running, in the form of clock pulses. > Yes, there is. the disk provides clock, several register loops, a few "fast register" multi head loops and the main program store. > Of course, if the characteristics of the clock signal(s) are known, it's not a complex matter to reproduce them with external logic. > If the external logic duplicated the various serial loops as shift register than the clock for the registers would also be the system clock. > The high school I went to had a computer in the computer lab made by 3M (the same people that make Scotch Tape and tons of other stuff). It was a process control machine that was donated to the school by Natural Gas utility that used it to monitor and manage gas pipelines. It was a 24-bit, bit-serial architecture, with two main registers (A and B), and main memory was a magnetic drum that held 8K words. Opcode was 5 bits, and each instruction had both an operand and next instruction address. Disk was organized as block/track/sector, so addresses were formed this way. The drum provided a master clock signal that was used by the rest of the machine for timing. The motor that drove the drum was an inexpensive motor much like that that drives a sewing machine. There was some phase-lock circuitry on the clock signal to let the machine know when the drum was up to speed, which would then make the machine go "ready", but there was no active feedback to control the speed of the motor beyond that. If the clock rate from the drum fell outside a window of tolerance, then the machine would lose ready state, and freeze where it was at. The drum was belt driven and one time the belt broke, and the machine froze. I was able to remove power from the motor, put on a spare belt (looked a lot like a vacuum cleaner belt), re-apply power to the motor, and once the drum came up to speed, the machine resumed what it was doing without a hitch. > There were a bunch of smaller Drum/disk based machines when transistors wer cheap enough but ICs were not yet available. That was a very narrow window in time as by the mid 60s RTL and DRTL were fairly common for gates and basic flops. The bridge to parallel machines was integrated (board level or chip) flipflops that were "cheap" enough to allow for having a lot of them as registers. Allison > -Rick > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 14:07:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:07:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <4DDD546F.7030503@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 25, 11 03:11:43 pm Message-ID: > Nice. ;) I currently have an RM547 and a 555. I lack the power > supply umbilical cable for the 555 though. I had a 545A many years ago. I think the connectors (althoguh maybe not the back shells) are still abailable, if expensive. It should be possible to make up the cable. > > Oh, and even the heater supply to most of the valves is regualted, by a > > circuit that takes into account the RMS value of the waveform. > > Glorious. Of course :-) In case you'rte wondering, the circuit is based round a bright-emitter diode in the PSU box. The filament of this valve runs off the instument heater transformer. The anode current thus depends on the heater temperature, and thus the RMS value of the heater voltage. The anode current controls the grid voltage of a pentode, the anode circuit of that contains the cotnrol windign of a saturable reactor which controls the suppl to the hater transformer. A very elegant circuit. I also have a 1S1 plug-in (1GHZ 'sampler', it aliases high-frequency repetitive signals down into the passband of the 'scope) and it associated cathode follower probe (which has a small triode valve inside the probe itelf). And yes I have used it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 15:06:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 21:06:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDD8713.9000201@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at May 25, 11 11:47:47 pm Message-ID: > > Thinking back, the B011 was a VME cars with a trnasputer on it, but I > > think it was normally used if you wanted to make a VME ssytem with the > > transputer as the main processor. The VME bus was interfaces to the > > transputer memory bus and you could drive normal VME cards with it. > > Oh dear, now I'd better dig up my INMOS databooks and check! When I was at Bristol Universtiy, we did quite abit with Trasnputers. We had a microVac with a 3rd party trasputer link card (not Inmos) in it, the developement tools (Occam compiler, etc) were hosted on said VAX. I was building my own trasnputer-based hardware, so had little to do with any commercial boards. But I rememebr a B001 board being around, and I am pretty sure it ws used as the bus master in a VME crate with varios interfaces, etc, hung off it. Whether the B011 could also be used as a VME slave to hang trasnputers off anotehr VME processor I don't know. To the OP... If you feel up to it uou can get around the problem of not having a C011 or C012 link adapter chip. You need to take a 'spare' transputer chip and configure it to run from ezternal ROM (see the data sheets). And have some ROM whcih reads data from a host interfce board (also mapped into the transputer memory space) and sents it to the transputer's link hardare. You then use said links to talk to your other trasnputers. I am pretty sure some commercial host itnerfaces worked that way. I never saw a schematic of the Q-bus card we had at Bristol, and I wasn't left alone with it for long enough to reverse-engineer it :-). But IIRC it contaisn a T2, some EPROMs and some glue logic (and probably the normal Qbus interace chips, etc). I am pretty sure there was no C011 or C012 on there. But making one yourself may be more than you want to get involved with, at least until you've got some transptuer experience... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 15:16:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 21:16:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110526075642.9a454146.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 26, 11 07:56:42 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 24 May 2011 19:17:24 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Ah... Are you saying that you don't ahve any form of link adapter. That > > is a mahor problem. > No link adapter. > > > My sgugestions is that you look out for some kind of host card with a > > link adapter on it. That will get you started. > I suppose getting a link adapter is as hard as to get Transputers. So Yes :-( Probably the easiest thing to find -- note I did not say it was easy to find, but it's more common than many of the other boards -- is a B004. This is a full-length ISA crd with a link adapter chip (connected to the ISA bus), a T4 or T8 transputer (the T8 has a built-in FPU, they are pin compatible, you vcan pull one and stick in the otehr and some DRAM. The connecto no the rear bracked carries the trasnptuer links from that transputer and the host adapter chip. Normally you fit a jumper to connec the host adapter to one of the links on the on-board trnasputer and then connect the other 3 links to the rest of your hardware, but you don't have to do that. Do not ask me where to find one, though:-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 15:26:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 21:26:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at May 26, 11 10:49:31 am Message-ID: > My first experience with ROM emulators was enough to sell me on them My final year undergraduate project involved an embedded 6809 system. The first thing I did was to build myself (not part of the offical project) an EPROM prgorammer/emulator. Not having to erase EPROMs all the time was great! [Of course said programemr/emulator was controlled by a couple of boards of TTL logic chips. I couldn't use a microprocessor because without the programemr I had no way to burn the firmware ROMs...) -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 26 15:33:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:33:31 -0600 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DDE9A9F.4090301@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: In article , Tom publix writes: > At the very least, they used the 4051 as a prop! > > http://battlestar-galactica.navajo.cz/battlestar-galactica-2.jpg Lots of Tek gear was used on the original Battlestar. The 4081 was used to generate all the on-screen graphics as it had a larger dynamic display list capability. See -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 14:01:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:01:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) In-Reply-To: from "Mark Kahrs" at May 25, 11 12:50:29 pm Message-ID: > > You know, it all depends on the person. Personally, I call the logic > analyzer the "tool of last resort" or "the dreaded logic analyzer". When Well, yes, I guess it is, in that you do the obvious checks (power supply :-:), etc first, and maybe use a logic probe to see if anything is obviously wrong (like one bus line stuck when all the others are changing. But for digital troubleshooting, I grab the logic analyser next. Most of the itme I need at least 8 and often more input channels. I can't afford a DSO with that many inputs :-) Of course it does depend on what I am working on. A logic analyser is not a lot of help in repairing analogue stuff like SMPUs and (most) monitors. > you need it, you need it and nothing else will do. But often you can get a > long way with a 'scope and a logic probe (in the ancient days when strobes > were easily accessible). These are the 'ancient days' aren't they? This is classiccmp, and I am talking about repaurubg classic computers. > > When you're debugging a 32 bit bus and you've got probes hanging all over > the place, then you know you are deep in hell --- one of the circles that > Dante didn't describe. I think it would be very difficult to repair an HP9800 machine or even an HP9866 thermal printe (to name 2 ofd the devices that have been across my bench recently) without a logic analyser. You might get lucky and find a signal that's obviously way off, but much of the time you need to trace the sequence of the microcode or control state machine (which are much the same thing, actually...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 14:24:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:24:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: from "Alexey Toptygin" at May 25, 11 07:27:12 pm Message-ID: > I don't know of any transputers with on-chip ROM, which model would that be? No transputers (AFAIK) have user-programmable ROM, or even mask ROM space that can be programmed as the user wants if you bought enoguh chips. But I'd assumed (and I think the data sheets confirm it) that the bootstrap program that downloads a probram over one of the links was stored in a ROM in the transputer. > The 801 is the SRAM optimised one (separate address and data buses); the > 805 is the 800 plus the break instruction and the Event Waiting pin. Thnaks. I have a couple of T801s somewhere... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 14:51:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:51:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110525215518.a03704ee.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 25, 11 09:55:18 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, 25 May 2011 18:50:42 +0100 (BST) > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > > > Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus > > and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? > As far as I understood the docs the B012 is just a TRAM carrier with > some C004 link switch chips. It is VME form factor, but the pinout of As you know, VME boards are standard double Eurocard form factor. it makes snese to use soemthing like that. IIRC, the B011 has a noraml VME interface on the 'A' (upper) connector but the 'B' connector carried the transputer links. The C004 is a bit like a 'telephone exchange' for trnasputer links :-). It lets you reconfigure how the trnasputers are interconencted. The interface on said chjip to load the conenciton data is ... a transputer link. Makea lot of sense, I guess... You _need_ a host adapter.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 14:57:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:57:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: <20110525222122.6b765436.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 25, 11 10:21:22 pm Message-ID: > I used a logic analyzer to debug, or better, to verify the correctness > of software. So do I, which is one reason I prefer a CPU + external program memory to having everything on one chip with no bus access... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 26 15:36:48 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:36:48 -0600 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Dave Caroline writes: > MyTektronic catalog put two related items to that pic Which year? > part of M4115B with the 3D wireframe option > > or > > part of 4991S1 graphic input station (a M4115B being part of the system) OK, looks like I need to snag these then :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu May 26 15:44:00 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 16:44:00 -0400 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator Message-ID: If you follow the SIMH list at all, you may have heard that the preliminary version of a VAXstation 2000 emulator has been released upon the world. Judging from what I've heard on the VMS newsgroup, a system like that really works best with an older (4.x-era) version of VMS along with the VWS workstation software. I've been able to find DECtape II images of an upgrade only version of VMS 4.7 for use with an 11/750, but can't seem to find anything that has the whole hog? Does anybody know of a place where TK50 images of VMS/MicroVMS 4.7 as well as a few other basics like VWS and maybe Pascal or Fortran or BASIC might be found? Ideally, I'd like to get the setup process written up and a few screenshots made for the curious, so any help that can get me started would be most apprectiated. Mike From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 26 15:46:19 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:46:19 -0600 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah.... now that I look closer I can see the Tektronix blue logo on the cabinet. It was dark where I took the photo and didn't notice this at the time, but the flash got it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Thu May 26 15:48:31 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 13:48:31 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> I have some photos of the disk unit from John B. It includes a photo of where the drive goes in the computer as well as the disk. Looks like head / track sort of technology, looking a lot like a drum in functionality. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2011/05/minuteman-autonetics-d17-disk-drive.html On 5/26/2011 12:32 PM, allison wrote: > On 05/26/2011 10:05 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >>> The disk drive was actually used as memory of the D-17B From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 26 16:15:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:15:39 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDEC2FB.5060303@neurotica.com> On 5/26/11 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus >>> and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? >> As far as I understood the docs the B012 is just a TRAM carrier with >> some C004 link switch chips. It is VME form factor, but the pinout of > > As you know, VME boards are standard double Eurocard form factor. ...or single, or triple.. > The C004 is a bit like a 'telephone exchange' for trnasputer links :-). > It lets you reconfigure how the trnasputers are interconencted. The > interface on said chjip to load the conenciton data is ... a transputer > link. Makea lot of sense, I guess... I'd dearly love a handful of those chips. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 26 16:21:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:21:55 -0400 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDEC473.7090508@neurotica.com> On 5/26/11 4:44 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > If you follow the SIMH list at all, you may have heard that the > preliminary version of a VAXstation 2000 emulator has been released > upon the world. This is great news! > Judging from what I've heard on the VMS newsgroup, a > system like that really works best with an older (4.x-era) version of > VMS along with the VWS workstation software. This is very true. I've run both 4.7 and 5.x on 78032-based hardware, and the performance between 4.7 and 5.0 (in particular) is like night and day. 5.1 sped things up a little, but it never was as fast as 4.7. > I've been able to find > DECtape II images of an upgrade only version of VMS 4.7 for use with > an 11/750, but can't seem to find anything that has the whole hog? > Does anybody know of a place where TK50 images of VMS/MicroVMS 4.7 as > well as a few other basics like VWS and maybe Pascal or Fortran or > BASIC might be found? Ideally, I'd like to get the setup process > written up and a few screenshots made for the curious, so any help > that can get me started would be most apprectiated. This won't help you right now, but I do have what you're looking for. I won't be able to get to those tapes for at least a month, perhaps two. If you still haven't found that stuff by that time. ping me and I'll see if I can help you out. I have to get moved, sort all of my stuff, and then put together a system with a functioning TK50 drive (a tough prospect even with as many TK drives as I have) and make images. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 16:43:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:43:35 -0700 Subject: Oscilloscope Recommendation In-Reply-To: References: <20110525222122.6b765436.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 25, 11 10:21:22 pm, Message-ID: <4DDE6717.29421.128E251@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2011 at 20:57, Tony Duell wrote: > So do I, which is one reason I prefer a CPU + external program memory > to having everything on one chip with no bus access... Seems like we've been here before. I rarely use a LA nowadays mostly because I haven't done a lot lately with non-"system-on-a-chip" stuff. I suspect that the trend away from logic analyzers has also been reflected strongly in industry. --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu May 26 17:54:17 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 18:54:17 -0400 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: <4DDEC473.7090508@neurotica.com> References: <4DDEC473.7090508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I've always liked ver 5.4 it seems like the sweet spot for VMS Sent from my iPhone On May 26, 2011, at 5:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/26/11 4:44 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: >> If you follow the SIMH list at all, you may have heard that the >> preliminary version of a VAXstation 2000 emulator has been released >> upon the world. > > This is great news! > >> Judging from what I've heard on the VMS newsgroup, a >> system like that really works best with an older (4.x-era) version of >> VMS along with the VWS workstation software. > > This is very true. I've run both 4.7 and 5.x on 78032-based hardware, and the performance between 4.7 and 5.0 (in particular) is like night and day. 5.1 sped things up a little, but it never was as fast as 4.7. > >> I've been able to find >> DECtape II images of an upgrade only version of VMS 4.7 for use with >> an 11/750, but can't seem to find anything that has the whole hog? >> Does anybody know of a place where TK50 images of VMS/MicroVMS 4.7 as >> well as a few other basics like VWS and maybe Pascal or Fortran or >> BASIC might be found? Ideally, I'd like to get the setup process >> written up and a few screenshots made for the curious, so any help >> that can get me started would be most apprectiated. > > This won't help you right now, but I do have what you're looking for. I won't be able to get to those tapes for at least a month, perhaps two. If you still haven't found that stuff by that time. ping me and I'll see if I can help you out. I have to get moved, sort all of my stuff, and then put together a system with a functioning TK50 drive (a tough prospect even with as many TK drives as I have) and make images. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Thu May 26 18:23:38 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 16:23:38 -0700 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Michael Kerpan Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2011 1:44 PM > If you follow the SIMH list at all, you may have heard that the > preliminary version of a VAXstation 2000 emulator has been released > upon the world. Judging from what I've heard on the VMS newsgroup, a > system like that really works best with an older (4.x-era) version of > VMS along with the VWS workstation software. I saw the discussion on the SimH list, then on alt.os.vms. I used to have one of these under my desk at Stanford, but I've never seen one running VMS. All of ours were running Ultrix; I'd like to repeat that experience one of these days, though I doubt I'd be able to find a copy of the X Window System, Release 10, such as I started with. Much of the discussion on c.o.v. had to do with the sluggishness of the 2000 under VMS. I found it a sprightly little beast under Ultrix, well able to support X (both 10 and 11), but then, we didn't burden it with Motif and all the other crap that underlay DECwindows, just raw X. I remember the changeover from GNU Emacs 17. to 18, doing the work now done by autoconfig by hand and compiling. Nostalgia ain't what it used to be, that's for sure! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu May 26 18:28:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 19:28:14 -0400 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDEE20E.5030204@neurotica.com> On 5/26/11 7:23 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > I used to have one of these under my desk at Stanford, but I've never > seen one running VMS. All of ours were running Ultrix; I'd like to > repeat that experience one of these days, though I doubt I'd be able > to find a copy of the X Window System, Release 10, such as I started > with. I too started with X10. X10R3 and X10R4 are around; I have the source code here. > I remember the changeover from GNU Emacs 17. to 18, doing the > work now done by autoconfig by hand and compiling. I started with emacs 18.59. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From fryers at gmail.com Thu May 26 18:30:47 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 09:30:47 +1000 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DDD8713.9000201@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: On 27 May 2011 06:06, Tony Duell wrote: [...] > When I was at Bristol Universtiy, we did quite abit with Trasnputers. We > had a microVac with a 3rd party trasputer link card (not Inmos) in it, > the developement tools (Occam compiler, etc) were hosted on said VAX. [VME] > I am pretty sure some commercial host itnerfaces worked that way. I never > saw a schematic of the Q-bus card we had at Bristol, and I wasn't left > alone with it for long enough to reverse-engineer it :-). But IIRC it > contaisn a T2, some EPROMs and some glue logic (and probably the normal > Qbus interace chips, etc). ?I am pretty sure there was no C011 or C012 on > there. If you are referring to the card that I think you are, I grabbed this a couple of years ago when the Physics Dept was throwing out a load of CAMAC and VME stuff. As it seemed I would never really get around to aqcuriing any transputer hardware I passed it on to the National Museum of Computing before I moved back to Australia. [...] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 18:33:13 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 16:33:13 -0700 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDEE339.2030004@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/11 1:44 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote: > If you follow the SIMH list at all, you may have heard that the > preliminary version of a VAXstation 2000 emulator has been released > upon the world. Judging from what I've heard on the VMS newsgroup, a > system like that really works best with an older (4.x-era) version of > VMS along with the VWS workstation software. I've been able to find > DECtape II images of an upgrade only version of VMS 4.7 for use with > an 11/750, but can't seem to find anything that has the whole hog? > Does anybody know of a place where TK50 images of VMS/MicroVMS 4.7 as > well as a few other basics like VWS and maybe Pascal or Fortran or > BASIC might be found? Ideally, I'd like to get the setup process > written up and a few screenshots made for the curious, so any help > that can get me started would be most apprectiated. > I put a couple of tk50 images up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/microvms I'd be interested to know if they work. I'll leave them up for a couple of days. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 26 19:03:02 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:03:02 -0400 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com> <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to> <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?Does anyone have a copy of the Comdyna Microhybrid I manual? Hopefully not. Best used for wrapping fish. Those Comdyna machines were the shittiest pieces of computer equipment I have ever seen - and yes, I include no-name PeeCee clones in my thinking. At one point I owned almost all the LGP-20s ever made (I had 16 of them, I think), and the build quality in every single one was horrid. And do not get me started on the mechanical design. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 19:33:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:33:57 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2011 at 20:03, William Donzelli wrote: > Those Comdyna machines were the shittiest pieces of computer equipment > I have ever seen - and yes, I include no-name PeeCee clones in my > thinking. At one point I owned almost all the LGP-20s ever made (I had > 16 of them, I think), and the build quality in every single one was > horrid. And do not get me started on the mechanical design. Will, you're conflating this thing with the veneered and generated name of Royal-McBee! The Comdyna tower-of-something was the LPG-20. (The R-McB was LGP-30 and -21). --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 26 19:34:13 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:34:13 -0700 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4DDEC473.7090508@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 6:54 PM -0400 5/26/11, Curt Vendel wrote: >I've always liked ver 5.4 it seems like the sweet spot for VMS With v5.5-2 you have the option of running modern commercial TCP/IP stacks. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu May 26 19:41:54 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:41:54 -0400 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Will, you're conflating this thing with the veneered and generated > name of Royal-McBee! ?The Comdyna tower-of-something was the LPG-20. > (The R-McB was LGP-30 and -21). Are you sure about that? This was eight years ago or so, but I remember the Comdyna things as LGP-20s - basically two GP-10s and a MicroHybrid I in a single tower of crap. On the other hand, I was moving some boxes of Royal-McBee LGP-21 tapes and docs earlier today, so I could be all mixed up. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu May 26 19:47:51 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:47:51 -0700 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: <4DDEE339.2030004@bitsavers.org> References: <4DDEE339.2030004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: At 4:33 PM -0700 5/26/11, Al Kossow wrote: >I put a couple of tk50 images up under >http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/microvms >I'd be interested to know if they work. >I'll leave them up for a couple of days. Cool! What format are these? My Microvax III came with v4.something on its RD53. I was stupid and didn't back it up when I booted it, it didn't come back a second time. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 26 19:56:25 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 17:56:25 -0700 Subject: Ancient VMS for an ancient VAX emulator In-Reply-To: References: <4DDEE339.2030004@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DDEF6B9.8090904@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/11 5:47 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Cool! What format are these? > SIMH .tap From useddec at gmail.com Thu May 26 20:38:55 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 20:38:55 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net> <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to> <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com> <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Someone local to me has had a 11/785 and a few options in storage few several years now. I don't remember the configuration, and have no interest in obtaining it myself. A few years back I contacted him on behalf of a list member, but never got very far. I think he wanted too much for it at the time. I seem to recall an expansion box, TU77 or 78, and a CDC 9766.If there is any interest, I can check it out. I've talked to him a month or so ago about something else and he mentioned he still had it. On a side note, I have a 780 spares kit and other parts. Paul On Mon, May 23, 2011 at 10:16 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > ? So, I picked up a PDP-11/03 at VCF East, with a single RX01 drive. I'm > told it was used as the control processor for a VAX-11/780. ?It has the > following boards installed: > > M7264 EB ? ? ? ?11/03 processor with 4-Kword MOS RAM > M7940 ? ? ? ? ? Serial Line Unit (SLU, Async) > M7946 ? ? ? ? ? RX01 8" floppy disk controller > M8017 ? ? ? ? ? Single-line async control module > M7944 ? ? ? ? ? 4-Kword 16-bit MOS RAM (external refresh) > M9400 YE ? ? ? ?Headers and 240-ohm terminators (18-bit bus only) > > ? There's one open dual-width slot in the card cage. ?It looks like I have > the cable for the M7940 to connect to a terminal, as well as the RX01 cable. > > ? With 8KW of RAM, what would I be able to run on this system? > Recommendations? ?I'm a novice in the PDP-11 world. > > > Mike Loewen ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology ? ? ? ?http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 26 20:46:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 18:46:57 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: , <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DDEA021.22231.207AF9C@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 May 2011 at 20:41, William Donzelli wrote: > Are you sure about that? This was eight years ago or so, but I > remember the Comdyna things as LGP-20s - basically two GP-10s and a > MicroHybrid I in a single tower of crap. Heh, I guess you're right and my mind dropped a bit. The image: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_FMBJEkaC8Lw/RcZeulj8YCI/AAAAAAAAALM/vBRWjZRM gVQ/s400/caf6_3.JPG Clearly shows a LGP-20 on the panel, where the caption says LPG-20. 'Scuse my knuckleheadedness, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu May 26 23:04:17 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 22:04:17 -0600 Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? Message-ID: Is anyone aware of an open source program for authoring ASCII animations and playing them back on different terminals at different baud rates with maximum fidelity? Ideally it would be something that stores the animation as meta data and not as raw escape codes for the terminal on which the animation was authored. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 27 00:29:19 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 22:29:19 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: , <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net>, <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to>, <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com>, <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net>, , <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com>, , <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to>, <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com>, , Message-ID: > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > > > Does anyone have a copy of the Comdyna Microhybrid I manual? > > Hopefully not. Best used for wrapping fish. > > Those Comdyna machines were the shittiest pieces of computer equipment > I have ever seen - and yes, I include no-name PeeCee clones in my > thinking. At one point I owned almost all the LGP-20s ever made (I had > 16 of them, I think), and the build quality in every single one was > horrid. And do not get me started on the mechanical design. > > -- > Will Hi Will You most likely owned the one I have at one time. I'll admit that I spent a few hours soldering bad joints in order to get it all working well. Still, I like it. It does what is it suppose to do and is easy to use. I can patch what ever I like with regular banana plugs and not some special jumpers that are no longer available. If searching on the web for those that don't know what we are talking about, look for either LPG-20 or LGP-20. It should be LGP-20. Unless someone gives me a EAI with a as many opamps, I'll use it. Thousands of GP-6s were used in schools and worked well there. To hold up to that kind of use is better than many pieces of electronics can say. Dwight From vevasthings at gmail.com Thu May 26 16:20:59 2011 From: vevasthings at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 14:20:59 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> This is what you are looking for right http://cgi.ebay.com/Minuteman-1-Missile-ICBM-D-17B-Vintage-Computer-Memory-/220784254926 It didnt sell. Maybe you can contact the seller. On May 26, 2011, at 1:48 PM, jim s wrote: > I have some photos of the disk unit from John B. It includes a photo of where the drive goes in the computer as well as the disk. Looks like head / track sort of technology, looking a lot like a drum in functionality. > > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2011/05/minuteman-autonetics-d17-disk-drive.html > > On 5/26/2011 12:32 PM, allison wrote: >> On 05/26/2011 10:05 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: >>> >>>> The disk drive was actually used as memory of the D-17B From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri May 27 01:22:31 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 23:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2011, Richard wrote: > Is anyone aware of an open source program for authoring ASCII > animations and playing them back on different terminals at different > baud rates with maximum fidelity? > > Ideally it would be something that stores the animation as meta data > and not as raw escape codes for the terminal on which the animation > was authored. I'm thinking "The Draw", which was for DOS and "Duh Draw", which was a reimplimentation for Unix. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri May 27 01:43:26 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 07:43:26 +0100 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 1985 catalogue, I googled and a 1984 user manual was in the results Dave Caroline On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:36 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > ? ?Dave Caroline writes: > >> MyTektronic catalog put two related items to that pic > > Which year? > >> part of M4115B with the 3D wireframe option >> >> or >> >> part of 4991S1 graphic input station (a M4115B being part of the system) > > OK, looks like I need to snag these then :-) > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > ? > > ? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 27 01:55:25 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 23:55:25 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 May 26, at 2:20 PM, leaknoil wrote: > This is what you are looking for right > http://cgi.ebay.com/Minuteman-1-Missile-ICBM-D-17B-Vintage-Computer- > Memory-/220784254926 > > It didnt sell. Maybe you can contact the seller. Hmmm, going from the pictures, isn't the actual disk and motor armature (the rotating-parts assembly) missing? > On May 26, 2011, at 1:48 PM, jim s wrote: > >> I have some photos of the disk unit from John B. It includes a photo >> of where the drive goes in the computer as well as the disk. Looks >> like head / track sort of technology, looking a lot like a drum in >> functionality. From cclist at sydex.com Fri May 27 03:06:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 01:06:46 -0700 Subject: OT: HRFS information Message-ID: <4DDEF926.28315.3636C0F@cclist.sydex.com> I've got what I believe to be a drive with a Vxworks HRFS filesystem on it. Anyone know of a quick way to verify this (by peering at the raw data)? Are there any third-party utilities that might let me mount this under Linux or (shudder) Windows? TIA, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri May 27 04:23:24 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 02:23:24 -0700 Subject: identify this equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 26, 2011 at 9:54 AM, Richard wrote: > OK, you guys were so good at identifying that other equipment from > its photo, how about these? ?They look like HP cabinets, but I didn't > feel like digging them out to look closer, just snapped a photo. > > Tektronix workstations of the 4110 or 4120 vintage. In the 1984 to 1987 Tek catalogs. This is the deskside case, not the pedestal. The front of the deskside case pulls out and shows the two 8 inch floppys. A side comes off to get to the card cage I seem to remember. The M4115B was 8086 based and the M4125 series were 80286 based. These were often upgraded and the upgrade path is shown in the 1985 catalog. So when you find one it can have all kinds of cards in it. Up to 8 planes of graphics were available. I have seen a 80386 processor card and also a graphics card called a Rainbow that were in a maxed out one. Both rare cards. In the 90s we went through quite a few of these workstations. Unfortunately they are heavy aluminum cases and heavy circuit cards and of great value to the scrappers. I noted that the model number appears different with the one on the left being longer than the one on the right. The actual configuration of the machine is usually on a plate on the back....although, as mentioned, many were upgraded. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri May 27 04:41:08 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:41:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: LGP-21 (was: Comdyna analog computer stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 26 May 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > On the other hand, I was moving some boxes of Royal-McBee LGP-21 tapes Please make images of these tapes. LGP-21 software is very rare; there's nothing on the net at the moment. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 27 08:32:47 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 09:32:47 -0400 Subject: LGP-21 (was: Comdyna analog computer stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Please make images of these tapes. LGP-21 software is very rare; there's > nothing on the net at the moment. Sorry, I already threw them in recycling. -- Will From jfoust at threedee.com Fri May 27 08:28:59 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 08:28:59 -0500 Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201105271333.p4RDXp1o027038@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:04 PM 5/26/2011, Richard wrote: >Ideally it would be something that stores the animation as meta data >and not as raw escape codes for the terminal on which the animation >was authored. Interesting idea. If the The Draw program only aims to send to a PC-like destination, then certainly you could write a converter to a metadata format, and translators for different terminals. An odd twist on termcap. Maybe that's the route. Maybe someone did that already. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 27 08:46:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 09:46:57 -0400 Subject: LGP-21 In-Reply-To: References: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DDFAB51.2090300@neurotica.com> On 5/27/11 9:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Please make images of these tapes. LGP-21 software is very rare; there's >> nothing on the net at the moment. > > Sorry, I already threw them in recycling. ! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 09:07:51 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 07:07:51 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: , <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to> <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net>, <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to>, <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com>, <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net>, , <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net> <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com>, , <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com> <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to>, <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com>, , Message-ID: <4DDFB037.8010200@bitsavers.org> On 5/26/11 10:29 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > Thousands of GP-6s were used in schools and worked > well there. CHM is looking for a couple of GP-6s to demonstrate the principles of analog computing, if anyone knows of any available. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 09:11:07 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 07:11:07 -0700 Subject: LGP-21 In-Reply-To: References: <4DDE8F05.15305.1C4D8B6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DDFB0FB.605@bitsavers.org> On 5/27/11 6:32 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Please make images of these tapes. LGP-21 software is very rare; there's >> nothing on the net at the moment. > > Sorry, I already threw them in recycling. > I hope you're joking. You and I talked about these and the manuals when you called me. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 27 09:38:47 2011 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 16:38:47 +0200 Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110527143847.GI23309@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2011-05-26 22:04:17 -0600, Richard wrote: > Is anyone aware of an open source program for authoring ASCII > animations and playing them back on different terminals at different > baud rates with maximum fidelity? What kind of animation? There's "real ascii-art" authoring on one side (like what you get upon `telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl'), or ascii-art'ized output of usual movies (like what you get with `mplayer -vo aa somevideo.file')? Real AA is probably mostly copying/modifying a hugh ASCII file containing the frames. (For the telnet output, the guys at http://www.asciimation.co.nz/ seem to have some java program, but it should be easy implementing something like that in shell together with inetd and a GNUish `sleep' (which can sleep fractions of a second.)) For AA'ized movies, I'd just do that: simply view the movie with eg. mpayer and it's AA output filter. It's probably somehow possible to redirect its output so that the software above can simply stream it. (Maybe that could even be done with mplayer and a good number of command line switches.) Searching for ASCII art on a Debian system, there are a good number of programs mentioned. Just to name some promising: aa3d - ASCII art stereogram generator aewan - ASCII-art Editor Without A Name cadubi - Creative ASCII Drawing Utility By Ian boxes - Textmode box- and comment drawing filter libaa1 - ascii art library libaa-bin - sample programs using aalib libcaca0 - colour ASCII art library MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: ...und wenn Du denkst, es geht nicht mehr, the second : kommt irgendwo ein Lichtlein her. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri May 27 11:52:52 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 12:52:52 -0400 Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? Message-ID: Back in the early 80's we created such animations by writing Fortran codes that had hardcoded strings to set up the static parts and used DO loops to emit the escape characters to do the animation on the terminals of the time (first VT52 then VT100). As necessary for regulating the speed of playback, NUL's and other "do nothings" would get inserted along the way in the DO loops. In my circle it was, by definition, being done on a DEC machine (either a -11 or a VAX, sometimes taking advantage of easy portability of the Fortrans). Some guys did this on PDP-10's but the Hollerith strings were not so portable between -10's and the -11/VAX platforms. There wasn't really much abstraction going on in those programs. Fortran was great for do loops etc. but a little bit ugly when it came to emitting character strings. It was often a kludgey combination of Hollerith strings stored in integer variables or arrays, format statements, and (where we had F77 later on) CHARACTER datatypes. We had absolutely no inhibition at using a 4-byte integer to store an escape sequence and then through the ugliness of equivalence statements making one of those bytes be the index of a do loop, and emitting it as a Hollerith string. Usually we did whatever was easiest so it was very common to see multiple approaches mixed together often inside the same format statement :). After making a file containing the escape sequences for an animation it was "released" by putting it in a public directory and/or copying it from site to site via DECNET. VMS Mail could (for a while) be used to send ASCII animations in the body of the message but most sysadmins eventually disabled control characters in message bodies (details of this... oooh I used to know but it escapes me now.) After my time (e.g. by the late 80's and early 90's) the animations were done by younger guys who knew C and some of them even used termcap libraries. From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 27 11:57:06 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:57:06 -0600 Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? In-Reply-To: <20110527143847.GI23309@lug-owl.de> References: <20110527143847.GI23309@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: In article <20110527143847.GI23309 at lug-owl.de>, Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > On Thu, 2011-05-26 22:04:17 -0600, Richard wrote: > > Is anyone aware of an open source program for authoring ASCII > > animations and playing them back on different terminals at different > > baud rates with maximum fidelity? > > What kind of animation? Hand created. Not transcoding existing video files into an ASCII representation like ascii quake. > There's "real ascii-art" authoring on one > side (like what you get upon `telnet towel.blinkenlights.nl'), Yes, like that. > Searching for ASCII art on a Debian system, there are a good number of > programs mentioned. Just to name some promising: > > aa3d - ASCII art stereogram generator > aewan - ASCII-art Editor Without A Name > cadubi - Creative ASCII Drawing Utility By Ian > boxes - Textmode box- and comment drawing filter > libaa1 - ascii art library > libaa-bin - sample programs using aalib > libcaca0 - colour ASCII art library This looks like a good start, thanks. It looks like existing stuff assumes that everything uses the standard ANSI codes and doesn't store the meta-instructions, but the escape code rendering of those instructions. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 27 12:02:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 11:02:21 -0600 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: In article <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467 at cs.ubc.ca>, Brent Hilpert writes: > On 2011 May 26, at 2:20 PM, leaknoil wrote: > > > This is what you are looking for right > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Minuteman-1-Missile-ICBM-D-17B-Vintage-Computer- > > Memory-/220784254926 > > > > It didnt sell. Maybe you can contact the seller. > > Hmmm, going from the pictures, isn't the actual disk and motor armature > (the rotating-parts assembly) missing? Its not clear that these are pictures of the actual item. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 12:19:31 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:19:31 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> On 5/27/11 10:02 AM, Richard wrote: > Its not clear that these are pictures of the actual item. probably is the disk platter is missing From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 27 12:26:30 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:26:30 -0700 Subject: Comdyna analog computer stuff In-Reply-To: References: , , <4DD66ACB.6090607@compsys.to>, <20110520150831.GB14446@n0jcf.net>, <4DD70368.8060207@compsys.to>, , <4DD7786B.6030108@dunnington.plus.com>, , <20110521104559.GA30040@n0jcf.net>, , , , <4DDBAEF4.7030803@verizon.net>, <4DDBB71C.7040000@neurotica.com>, , , <4DDBC256.3020902@neurotica.com>, <4DDD0562.9060002@compsys.to>, <4DDD2060.5060003@neurotica.com>, , , , , Message-ID: Hi A picture of my setup is at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mightyohm/5756040057/in/photostream/ from the Maker Faire. I was generating spyrographs with it. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 19:53:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 01:53:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDEC2FB.5060303@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at May 26, 11 05:15:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 5/26/11 3:51 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus > >>> and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? > >> As far as I understood the docs the B012 is just a TRAM carrier with > >> some C004 link switch chips. It is VME form factor, but the pinout of > > > > As you know, VME boards are standard double Eurocard form factor. > > ...or single, or triple.. While Sun used triple eurocards on a VME bus, I didn't think that was officially part of the standard. > > > The C004 is a bit like a 'telephone exchange' for trnasputer links :-). > > It lets you reconfigure how the trnasputers are interconencted. The > > interface on said chjip to load the conenciton data is ... a transputer > > link. Makea lot of sense, I guess... > > I'd dearly love a handful of those chips. Theyr'e rarer than transputers (and link adapters) ;-(. You didn't need them if you were making a fixed-configuration network after all. While the C004 did re-time the link signals, the links are not that fast (10MHz), and you can get away with using F TTL multiplexers, etc to swich links around on smaller systems. Yes, I have done it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 20:02:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 02:02:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at May 27, 11 09:30:47 am Message-ID: > > I am pretty sure some commercial host itnerfaces worked that way. I never > > saw a schematic of the Q-bus card we had at Bristol, and I wasn't left > > alone with it for long enough to reverse-engineer it :-). But IIRC it > > contaisn a T2, some EPROMs and some glue logic (and probably the normal > > Qbus interace chips, etc). =A0I am pretty sure there was no C011 or C012 = > on > > there. > > If you are referring to the card that I think you are, I grabbed this We had at lest 2 of them, differnt makes, but I think fairly similar circuitry. I cna;t rememebr any more details, I used it about 20 years ago after all... > a couple of years ago when the Physics Dept was throwing out a load of > CAMAC and VME stuff. As it seemed I would never really get around to > aqcuriing any transputer hardware I passed it on to the National > Museum of Computing before I moved back to Australia. Pity it didn't get to somebody who had a microVAX and some transputer stuff :-( I doubt the NoMC will make much of it... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 27 13:16:35 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 14:16:35 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DDFEA83.90006@neurotica.com> On 5/26/11 8:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>> Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the VME bus >>>>> and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? >>>> As far as I understood the docs the B012 is just a TRAM carrier with >>>> some C004 link switch chips. It is VME form factor, but the pinout of >>> >>> As you know, VME boards are standard double Eurocard form factor. >> >> ...or single, or triple.. > > While Sun used triple eurocards on a VME bus, I didn't think that was > officially part of the standard. Perhaps not, but several companies did it. > While the C004 did re-time the link signals, the links are not that fast > (10MHz), and you can get away with using F TTL multiplexers, etc to swich > links around on smaller systems. Yes, I have done it. Neat stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 27 13:38:11 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 20:38:11 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDDE7B8.9000008@e-bbes.com> References: <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <20110525220129.57fbb21c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDDE7B8.9000008@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <20110527203811.247d4721.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:40:08 +0200 "e.stiebler" wrote: > I guess, I still have some PC interface board for them. If you want some TRAMs for it... As said: PeeCee boards usually imply WinDOS. I am not going to touch this @!*$(^#. Not even for Transputers. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 27 13:40:55 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 20:40:55 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <20110526075642.9a454146.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110527204055.eafc4d77.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 26 May 2011 21:16:17 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > Probably the easiest thing to find -- note I did not say it was easy to > find, but it's more common than many of the other boards -- is a B004. > This is a full-length ISA crd with a link adapter chip ISA is a nightmare. I refuse to touch it. Especially as ISA usually implies a PeeCee running WinDOS. Somthing I haven't touched in 18 years and I am not going to change my "!WinDOS" policy. A VAX running Ultrix or even VMS, or a Sun running SunOS or some other real computer running a proper operating system would be fine. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 27 13:41:14 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 20:41:14 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DDEC2FB.5060303@neurotica.com> References: <4DDEC2FB.5060303@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110527204114.558dd233.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 26 May 2011 17:15:39 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > > The C004 is a bit like a 'telephone exchange' for trnasputer links :-). [...] > I'd dearly love a handful of those chips. Well. This could be arranged. If it is OK to you that those chips are soldered on said B012 board... There may be even some TRAMs sitting on top of that B012... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu May 26 21:15:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 03:15:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110527203811.247d4721.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from "Jochen Kunz" at May 27, 11 08:38:11 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 26 May 2011 07:40:08 +0200 > "e.stiebler" wrote: > > > I guess, I still have some PC interface board for them. > If you want some TRAMs for it... > > As said: PeeCee boards usually imply WinDOS. I am not going to touch The Inmos bords pre-date the common usage of Windows, and IIRC the software was MS-DOS based. You may want to moan about that too.. Howeve,r Inmos's doecumatiuon was very complete, and IIRC even included things like the PAL equations (it certainly included a schematic). There was an occam compiler, etc that ran on the trnasputer system so the host PCB essentially became a terminal and fileserver. IIRC the protocol for this was docuemtned. I don;t see why your couldn't write a sutiable host program for any machine/OS and runn the trasputer-hosted tools. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 27 14:12:40 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 21:12:40 +0200 Subject: Debugging styles (was 'scopes) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110527211240.1492cc61.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 26 May 2011 06:59:47 -0700 dwight elvey wrote: > Actually, I was thinking, one of the nicer things to have in general > is a ROM-ICE. Much quiker than blowing EPROMs with test > code. Over a decade ago (on topic! ;-) ) I build an embedded system around a 8051 derivate. The chip had build in Flash, but needed a programing adapter to be flashed. So it would have been the typical, compile, pull chip, "burn" it, put chip back, cycle for testing. Cumbersome. So I designed the board with external RAM and EPROM. (Harvard architecture) I made the external EPROM programm memory visible in the upper 32 kB of data RAM and I used a SRAM chip insted of an EPROM during developement. I put a simple serial bootloader into the build in flash of said 8051 derivate. Thus I needed to programm the chip only once. So developement was: Assemble. Put CPU in Reset state. (Via a switch on the target board.) Enable internal FLASH. (Via a switch on the target board.) Switch off reset, CPU starts RS232 bootloader from build in FLASH. Download code into external programm memory by: cat file.bin > /dev/tty01 Put CPU in Reset state. Disable internal FLASH. Switch off reset, CPU starts downloaded code from external SRAM. Very convenient. Works as well as an EPROM emulator or some JTAG / ISP stuff. -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From shumaker at att.net Fri May 27 14:19:03 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 12:19:03 -0700 Subject: 8" bernoulli cartridges In-Reply-To: <4DDFEA83.90006@neurotica.com> References: <4DDFEA83.90006@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DDFF927.3070808@att.net> ISTR someone seeking "inexpensive" 8" bernoulli cartridges a while back.... check EPay #150609014843. $5 starting bid. seller says he has several steve On 5/27/2011 11:16 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/26/11 8:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>>>> Is the B012 jut a TRAM motherboard then, taking power form the >>>>>> VME bus >>>>>> and bringing the links out on (I asusme) the B connector? >>>>> As far as I understood the docs the B012 is just a TRAM carrier with >>>>> some C004 link switch chips. It is VME form factor, but the pinout of >>>> >>>> As you know, VME boards are standard double Eurocard form factor. >>> >>> ...or single, or triple.. >> >> While Sun used triple eurocards on a VME bus, I didn't think that was >> officially part of the standard. > > Perhaps not, but several companies did it. > >> While the C004 did re-time the link signals, the links are not that fast >> (10MHz), and you can get away with using F TTL multiplexers, etc to >> swich >> links around on smaller systems. Yes, I have done it. > > Neat stuff. > > -Dave > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri May 27 15:56:47 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 22:56:47 +0200 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <20110527203811.247d4721.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20110527225647.29cea489.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 27 May 2011 03:15:02 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: > I don;t see why your couldn't write a sutiable host program for any > machine/OS and runn the trasputer-hosted tools. Available time. :-( If I really get a considerable amount of time to spend on a classic computing related project, it will be a gate-level reimplementation of a Zuse Z23 in a FPGA... -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri May 27 16:18:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:18:00 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE01508.8000207@neurotica.com> On 5/26/11 10:15 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > The Inmos bords pre-date the common usage of Windows, and IIRC the > software was MS-DOS based. You may want to moan about that too.. > > Howeve,r Inmos's doecumatiuon was very complete, and IIRC even included > things like the PAL equations (it certainly included a schematic). There > was an occam compiler, etc that ran on the trnasputer system so the host > PCB essentially became a terminal and fileserver. IIRC the protocol for > this was docuemtned. > > I don;t see why your couldn't write a sutiable host program for any > machine/OS and runn the trasputer-hosted tools. I'm hoping to do something along those lines myself. I have a T805 about halfway wire-wrapped onto a Z80 SBC that I have running Forth. Unfortunately it's at home in Florida and I'm still stuck in West "By God" Virginia, so it'll be a while before I can finish it, but I have Big Plans(tm). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jtp at chinalake.com Fri May 27 16:52:59 2011 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:52:59 -0400 Subject: FS: Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI, also 2 CR-ROM caddies Message-ID: <002101cc1cb8$7231ac80$56950580$@chinalake.com> Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI drive Pulled from storage where it was bagged with desiccant. Clean, no dings/dents/fading I have a few cleaning tapes somewhere, all real media was shredded. Comes with a passive term (AMP type, DIGITAL logo). $30USD OBO Metro-west Boston, MA. Will ship from 01888 (~6lbs packed) Probably have a cable around if needed. Also have two CD-ROM caddies. Clean, usual tan, clear top w/ metal centre cap. Few bucks + shipping would be nice. -Jim (jtp at chinalake.com) From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 27 17:02:30 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 16:02:30 -0600 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4DDFDD23.7010701 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 5/27/11 10:02 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Its not clear that these are pictures of the actual item. > > probably is > the disk platter is missing They seemed nearly identical to some other pictures I saw earlier on this thread; I figure they nicked web photos for their auction, but it could have been the other way round. Aren't the auction photos identical to the ones from Aron Insinga's page? BTW, I think Aron said he might have some other random bits of that system laying around his attic. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Fri May 27 18:21:39 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 16:21:39 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> I talked to John, and he has a complete system, plus another that was disassembled preparing to be a still life for the art dept. Now both are safe. The photos I posted were ones he found on the web looking for the info. He has the same proceedings papers that Aron seems to be working with, and / or Al. I am encouraging him to get the documentation inventoried. Is the sense of this thread that there may only be three of these, two that may be complete enough to function? Jim On 5/27/2011 3:02 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<4DDFDD23.7010701 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> On 5/27/11 10:02 AM, Richard wrote: >> >>> Its not clear that these are pictures of the actual item. >> probably is >> the disk platter is missing > They seemed nearly identical to some other pictures I saw earlier on > this thread; I figure they nicked web photos for their auction, but it > could have been the other way round. Aren't the auction photos > identical to the ones from Aron Insinga's page? > > BTW, I think Aron said he might have some other random bits of that > system laying around his attic. From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri May 27 18:25:02 2011 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 01:25:02 +0200 Subject: program for authoring ASCII animations? In-Reply-To: References: <20110527143847.GI23309@lug-owl.de> Message-ID: <20110527232502.GK23309@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2011-05-27 10:57:06 -0600, Richard wrote: > In article <20110527143847.GI23309 at lug-owl.de>, > Jan-Benedict Glaw writes: > > Searching for ASCII art on a Debian system, there are a good number of > > programs mentioned. Just to name some promising: > > > > aa3d - ASCII art stereogram generator > > aewan - ASCII-art Editor Without A Name > > cadubi - Creative ASCII Drawing Utility By Ian > > boxes - Textmode box- and comment drawing filter > > libaa1 - ascii art library > > libaa-bin - sample programs using aalib > > libcaca0 - colour ASCII art library > > This looks like a good start, thanks. It looks like existing stuff > assumes that everything uses the standard ANSI codes and doesn't store > the meta-instructions, but the escape code rendering of those > instructions. I guess they're these are using a simple file with a fixed number of lines per screen "image". The escape codes are then created by the software (during display of the animation). In theory, that could even mean to just scroll out the old stuff (if run on a `dumb' terminal). MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/faqs/questions.html the second : From legalize at xmission.com Fri May 27 18:25:03 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:25:03 -0600 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4DE03203.5010904 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > Is the sense of this thread that there may only be three of these, two > that may be complete enough to function? I thought the one at CHM was complete. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 27 18:32:33 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 16:32:33 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4DE03491.1050400@bitsavers.org> On 5/27/11 4:21 PM, jim s wrote: > He has the same proceedings papers that Aron seems to be working with, and / or Al. Aron and I have two different proceedings his is TSL-3-71 second meeting nov 1970 the one i've borrowed from richard muller is mcug-2-73 fifth meeting apr 73 Somewhere I have the contents of all the proceedings. The first meeting had the most interesting technical information so it would be good to know which ones John has. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri May 27 18:49:52 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 19:49:52 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Is the sense of this thread that there may only be three of these, two that may be complete enough to function? I know of three other machines. I bet there are even more kicking around. I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri May 27 18:54:54 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 16:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com> <20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> <4DE03203.5010904@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 May 2011, William Donzelli wrote: >> Is the sense of this thread that there may only be three of these, two > that may be complete enough to function? > > I know of three other machines. I bet there are even more kicking around. > > I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > All the more reason to make sure all three work. :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri May 27 19:18:09 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 17:18:09 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <003901cc18c1$088f5e30$19ae1a90$@ntlworld.com><20110524232918.d1255d53.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de><4DDD2B86.40108@jwsss.com> <4DDEAAD8.3020909@verizon.net> <4DDEBC9F.5000208@jwsss.com> <3CEE4B30-69C6-4763-9610-29C80BCBC1F6@gmail.com> <36e20e35861db7d336ed4879713c7467@cs.ubc.ca> <4DDFDD23.7010701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2011 May 27, at 3:02 PM, Richard wrote: > In article <4DDFDD23.7010701 at bitsavers.org>, > Al Kossow writes: > >> On 5/27/11 10:02 AM, Richard wrote: >>> Its not clear that these are pictures of the actual item. >> >> probably is >> the disk platter is missing > > They seemed nearly identical to some other pictures I saw earlier on > this thread; I figure they nicked web photos for their auction, but it > could have been the other way round. Aren't the auction photos > identical to the ones from Aron Insinga's page? They ebay photos are different than the photos jim posted earlier in the thread, look at the surface the units are sitting on. Also, the stamped number on the top of the units is different: http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2011/05/minuteman-autonetics-d17-disk- drive.html http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? ViewItem&_trksid=p4340.l2557&item=220784254926&nma=true&rt=nc&si=lahRCXi IK4mEFgVeuPTXT945NcY%253D If I were looking for a complete unit I wouldn't want to be bidding on it without more info. Too bad, as it would be nice to see stuff come together to complete another system. > BTW, I think Aron said he might have some other random bits of that > system laying around his attic. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri May 27 23:40:42 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 23:40:42 -0500 Subject: Tunne machine video Message-ID: <4DE07CCA.2000401@tx.rr.com> For those interested, there is a new Tunne code breaker machine video available. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13566878 Enjoy, Charlie Carothers From keith at smartdev.demon.co.uk Fri May 27 04:57:05 2011 From: keith at smartdev.demon.co.uk (Keith) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 10:57:05 +0100 Subject: Varian Data Machines Message-ID: Hi, I used to be a field service engineer for VDM in Europe. Did you get the 620L100 working? Was the Tektronix a 611? If so it could have been an early nuclear medicine system. Regards, Keith -- Keith From djg at pdp8online.com Fri May 27 07:28:53 2011 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 08:28:53 -0400 Subject: Edusystem-25 BASIC (was Re: PDP-11/03) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110527122853.GA14958@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 12:15:35PM -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > This thread got me looking for the PDP-8 equivalent (thinking back to > Dave Ahl's original (pre-MSBASIC) edition of "101 BASIC Computer > Games") and I found this... > > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/russ.ucs.indiana.edu/Langs/Edu25Basic/Ascii/edu25.pa > I haven't seen a good copy. The EDU20 paper tape multi user basic is around and good. http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/set8_20040316/tray1/edu20.bin If I remember correctly its really in RIM format. It starts RIM then switches to its own loader to finish the tape. I've run it on my 8/I with a PT08. From james at machineroom.info Fri May 27 15:33:40 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 21:33:40 +0100 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> On 27/05/2011 01:53, Tony Duell wrote: >>> The C004 is a bit like a 'telephone exchange' for trnasputer links :-). >>> It lets you reconfigure how the trnasputers are interconencted. The >>> interface on said chjip to load the conenciton data is ... a transputer >>> link. Makea lot of sense, I guess... >> I'd dearly love a handful of those chips. > Theyr'e rarer than transputers (and link adapters) ;-(. You didn't need > them if you were making a fixed-configuration network after all. > > While the C004 did re-time the link signals, the links are not that fast > (10MHz), and you can get away with using F TTL multiplexers, etc to swich > links around on smaller systems. Yes, I have done it. > > -tony > David May has a page describing some of the boards you're never likely to find in the wild. I was also in touch with his son recently and you'll be glad to know the the Transputer bug has been passed down. He mentioned rumours that someone was putting together a large Transputer museum exhibit. No idea on where/who though. Take a look at http://www.cs.bris.ac.uk/~dave/transputer.html Re. link chips - a quick check on ebay.co.uk shows auction #230614973050 is for C011 chips and he claims to have 15 available. These are just the bare chips, i.e. not an ISA card but they are pretty simple (8 bits data bus <> Inmos link). Also of interest is item #150609267203 which is for a full TDS - I'm watching this one but suspect it'll go for silly money :( James From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat May 28 01:43:14 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 23:43:14 -0700 Subject: Data I/O manual sought in PDF format. Message-ID: Looking for the Calibration/Service manual for the Unipak 2B unit, it has schematics in it and the calibration procedures. Since some of the adapters are unobtanium, with the service/cal manual it should be possible to reverse engineer some of the adapters :) From ats at offog.org Sat May 28 04:56:23 2011 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 10:56:23 +0100 Subject: FS: Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI, also 2 CR-ROM caddies In-Reply-To: <002101cc1cb8$7231ac80$56950580$@chinalake.com> (J. Peterson's message of "Fri, 27 May 2011 17:52:59 -0400") References: <002101cc1cb8$7231ac80$56950580$@chinalake.com> Message-ID: "J. Peterson" writes: > Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI drive One advantage of the SDT-9000 mechanism that might not be immediately obvious: if you install SGI's version of the firmware on it, it can also read audio DATs. I've got quite a lot of use out of mine with wdat on Linux. More information here: http://www.big-bubbles.talktalk.net/personal/ade/dat-dds/ -- Adam Sampson From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 28 10:39:21 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 11:39:21 -0400 Subject: TK25 Problem Message-ID: <4DE11729.6090602@compsys.to> After 20 years, I need to use my TK25 again. I now remember why I switched to the TK70. I takes about 4 minutes every time I need to change a tape. Now there is a hardware problem. When I insert a different tape, the tension cycle shows a flashing (left side of the front panel) green light until the cycle is complete. I am confident that the light changed to solid green in the past, but now the light stays unlit and the unit is not ready. At first, I tried to boot RT-11, but no luck. By accident, I needed to turn off the power, and then turn it back on. The TK25 power was left on and as soon as the PDP-11 started the boot cycle, the green light on the TK25 turned solid green. After RT-11 had booted from the hard drive, the TK25 is ready and everything works. Any suggestions? Controller? Drive? Cable? Since it takes 4 minutes for the tension cycle, having to boot again (less than a minute) is not a deal breaker. Also, now just a boot turns the green light on. Thank you in advance for any suggestions? Jerome Fine From RichA at vulcan.com Sat May 28 12:31:28 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 10:31:28 -0700 Subject: Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI, also 2 CR-ROM caddies In-Reply-To: <002101cc1cb8$7231ac80$56950580$@chinalake.com> References: <002101cc1cb8$7231ac80$56950580$@chinalake.com> Message-ID: We're interested. Can you hold on a day or so? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J. Peterson Sent: Friday, May 27, 2011 2:53 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: FS: Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI, also 2 CR-ROM caddies Sony SDT-S9000 DDS3 External SCSI drive Pulled from storage where it was bagged with desiccant. Clean, no dings/dents/fading I have a few cleaning tapes somewhere, all real media was shredded. Comes with a passive term (AMP type, DIGITAL logo). $30USD OBO Metro-west Boston, MA. Will ship from 01888 (~6lbs packed) Probably have a cable around if needed. Also have two CD-ROM caddies. Clean, usual tan, clear top w/ metal centre cap. Few bucks + shipping would be nice. -Jim (jtp at chinalake.com) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat May 28 13:03:22 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:03:22 -0400 Subject: TK25 Problem In-Reply-To: <4DE11729.6090602@compsys.to> References: <4DE11729.6090602@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE138EA.9040003@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > After 20 years, I need to use my TK25 again. > > I now remember why I switched to the TK70. I takes > about 4 minutes every time I need to change a tape. > > Now there is a hardware problem. When I insert > a different tape, the tension cycle shows a flashing > (left side of the front panel) green light until the cycle > is complete. I am confident that the light changed > to solid green in the past, but now the light stays > unlit and the unit is not ready. At first, I tried to > boot RT-11, but no luck. By accident, I needed > to turn off the power, and then turn it back on. > The TK25 power was left on and as soon as > the PDP-11 started the boot cycle, the green > light on the TK25 turned solid green. After > RT-11 had booted from the hard drive, the TK25 > is ready and everything works. > > Any suggestions? Controller? Drive? Cable? > Since it takes 4 minutes for the tension cycle, > having to boot again (less than a minute) is not > a deal breaker. > > Also, now just a boot turns the green light on. Just to clarify: An ordinary boot via an RT-11 command does not solve the problem. The BOOT command must be done via the "restart" button on the front panel of the BA23 box. > Thank you in advance for any suggestions? > > Jerome Fine From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 14:19:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:19:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at May 27, 11 07:49:52 pm Message-ID: > I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat May 28 14:15:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:15:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at May 27, 11 09:33:40 pm Message-ID: > Re. link chips - a quick check on ebay.co.uk shows auction #230614973050 > is for C011 chips and he claims to have 15 available. These are just the > bare chips, i.e. not an ISA card but they are pretty simple (8 bits data > bus <> Inmos link). Also of interest is item #150609267203 which is for The C011 is very easy to interface to a stnadard microprocessor bus, all you really need to add is an address decoder. IIRC, the internal registers show some similarity with a DL11 (of all things!) > a full TDS - I'm watching this one but suspect it'll go for silly money :( Do you tink an original ITEM would have any financial value? (No, I do not have one for sale). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 28 15:23:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:23:53 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE159D9.3090806@neurotica.com> On 5/28/11 3:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > > Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. *snicker* -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 28 15:33:02 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:33:02 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: All this transputer talk makes me wonder if anyone has implemented the CPU as an FPGA? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat May 28 15:48:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:48:48 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > All this transputer talk makes me wonder if anyone has implemented the > CPU as an FPGA? Why? Transputers are not all that super rare, and like most early MPP architectures, really did not work all that well, as was originally intended. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 28 15:54:34 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:54:34 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE1610A.1010406@neurotica.com> On 5/28/11 4:48 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> All this transputer talk makes me wonder if anyone has implemented the >> CPU as an FPGA? > > Why? Transputers are not all that super rare, and like most early MPP > architectures, really did not work all that well, as was originally > intended. Because: - they're historically important, and as such are worth understanding - they're interesting - some people like them - they actually worked rather well in many applications, mostly math -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat May 28 16:13:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 17:13:07 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE16563.2030100@neurotica.com> On 5/28/11 4:33 PM, Richard wrote: > All this transputer talk makes me wonder if anyone has implemented the > CPU as an FPGA? The designer of the Transputer architecture, Dave May, hasn't been sitting still. His new(ish) company, XMOS, is selling some really nice chips that are generally considered to be descendants of the Transputer architecture. I've not yet messed with them, but they've been on my list since I heard about them a year or two ago. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat May 28 16:52:31 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 14:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> > > I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. On Sat, 28 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat May 28 17:14:48 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 18:14:48 -0400 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing Message-ID: <85FC9E0AF847466588B51F7324F8D4AB@andrewdesktop> Hi! The new N8 (pronounced "innate") Z180 based SBC will be going into beta test at the end of June (estimated). This is what used to be called the N8VEM home computer which was mentioned a couple of times in the "FreeCP/M" thread on comp.os.cpm The N8 is an "all in one" design with Z8S180, 1 MB SRAM, 1 MB EPROM or 512KB Flash, dual serial ports, parallel printer port, PS/2 keyboard and mouse ports, RTC and NVSRAM (DS1302), composite NTSC video (TMS9918A), audio (AY-3-8910), dual joystick ports, IDE port, FDC port, SD socket, optional CSIO port, optional RS-485 networking port, and ECB bus expansion. It can be powered from a 9VDC wall supply or from a scrap PC power supply and fits on a 10"x6" PCB. The N8 is wrapping up its initial round of build and test and I will be ordering the second batch of prototype boards in one week. If you would be interested in participating as a beta tester please let me know. If there is enough interest I can expand the prototype board order to accommodate additional builders. I anticipate the final board to come out sometime this fall. Note this is a PCB only and you will have to source your own components to keep the costs low. Schematics, PCB layout, and part list including supplier information are available on the N8VEM wiki in the "N8" folder. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rlaag at pacbell.net Sat May 28 18:32:26 2011 From: rlaag at pacbell.net (Robert Laag) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: D 17A FRONT PANEL CONSOLE Message-ID: <965468.13337.qm@web180409.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I HAVE A FRONT PANEL CONSOLE FOR A D 17A IF ANYONE NEEDS A PICTURE... From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat May 28 19:08:19 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:08:19 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 5:52 PM Subject: Re: minuteman guidance computer D17B >> > I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > On Sat, 28 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. > > Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? > One big firework. One question I have about the control is would somebody need the control disk (software) to figure out how the design works or are the boards enough? From als at thangorodrim.de Sat May 28 19:52:09 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 02:52:09 +0200 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110529005209.GA23675@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Sat, May 28, 2011 at 02:52:31PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > On Sat, 28 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. > > Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? One or more cans of instant sunshine. The task of the guidance computer and other associated peripherals was to ensure timely and precise delivery to whatever location was deemed to be in urgent need of ... enlightenment. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From legalize at xmission.com Sat May 28 22:33:34 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 21:33:34 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > All this transputer talk makes me wonder if anyone has implemented the > > CPU as an FPGA? > > Why? For the same reason anyone implements any other CPU in an FPGA -- so you can use that CPU architecture in a modern design or as a hardware simulation of a vintage design. > Transputers are not all that super rare, 6502s and 6800s are even more common and both of those are implemented as FPGA cores. > and like most early MPP > architectures, really did not work all that well, as was originally > intended. I think there's a difference between commercial success and not working well. "Not working well" implies to me that it had some functional deficiency. Transputers ended up not being commercially successful because they were expensive and not many people wanted to program in Occam, despite whatever advantages CSP may have had. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat May 28 22:53:52 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 20:53:52 -0700 Subject: next: minuteman II computer D17C / was Re: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <73c271129928565444c6a82fe1274759@cs.ubc.ca> It has been interesting to see how much awareness there is of the D17B. So what about the successor: the D37C? Built from TI's first(?) IC logic family: Minuteman Series DTL (SN3xx), and contemporaneous with the AGC. I haven't found as much info about it as there was for the D17B. There's a paper from 1974 discussing what to do with them once they were surplussed, as for the D17B: http://www.stormingmedia.us/44/4427/0442777.html How many, if any, remain? Known whereabouts? And then there is the D37D of the minuteman III. Or did the military belatedly decide it wasn't a good idea to release these, with software or without? From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat May 28 23:51:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 21:51:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 28 May 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > On Sat, 28 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. > > Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? > A big, long shiny thing with a noisy bit at one end and REALLY noisy bit at the other. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 00:21:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:21:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110528221639.H67931@shell.lmi.net> > >>> I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > >> Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. > > Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? > A big, long shiny thing with a noisy bit at one end and REALLY noisy bit > at the other. Actually, I was kinda asking for some details of what kind of missile the "minuteman" was. But the answers so far have been much more entertaining than that! From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun May 29 00:36:00 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:36:00 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <20110528221639.H67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Liquid fueled ICBM, it could strike a target 6300 miles away from launchsite in 30 minutes. Topped with a 1 or 5 megaton warhead IIRC. On 5/28/11 10:21 PM, "Fred Cisin" wrote: >>>>> I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. >>>> Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. >>> Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? >> A big, long shiny thing with a noisy bit at one end and REALLY noisy bit >> at the other. > > Actually, I was kinda asking for some details of what kind of missile the > "minuteman" was. > > But the answers so far have been much more entertaining than that! > > > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun May 29 00:48:37 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <972335.1706.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 5/28/11, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Liquid fueled ICBM, it could strike a > target 6300 miles away from launchsite > in 30 minutes. Topped with a 1 or 5 megaton warhead IIRC. The Minuteman was actually solid fueled, which allowed it to be easily stored in its silo in launch-ready status. It is for this reason that it's had such a long lifetime. Eariler ICBMs such as the Atlas and Titan I had to be fueled immediately prior to launch. The Titan II used storable liquid propellants, but they were highly corrosive, which led to problems. The Titan IIs had a reasonably long lifetime, into the 80s, but the others were only briefly. --Bill From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun May 29 00:49:16 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:49:16 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/28/11 10:36 PM, "Geoffrey Reed" wrote: > Liquid fueled ICBM, it could strike a target 6300 miles away from launchsite > in 30 minutes. Topped with a 1 or 5 megaton warhead IIRC. > > Sigh.. Did some checking and the Minuteman 1A carried a 1.2 megaton warhead. From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun May 29 00:50:58 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 22:50:58 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <972335.1706.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 5/28/11 10:48 PM, "William Maddox" wrote: > --- On Sat, 5/28/11, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > >> Liquid fueled ICBM, it could strike a >> target 6300 miles away from launchsite >> in 30 minutes. Topped with a 1 or 5 megaton warhead IIRC. > > The Minuteman was actually solid fueled, which allowed it to > be easily stored in its silo in launch-ready status. It is > for this reason that it's had such a long lifetime. > > Eariler ICBMs such as the Atlas and Titan I had to be fueled > immediately prior to launch. The Titan II used storable liquid > propellants, but they were highly corrosive, which led to problems. > The Titan IIs had a reasonably long lifetime, into the 80s, but > the others were only briefly. > > --Bill No problem, I was mostly working from memory, my younger brother was at Grand Forks AFB and Minot babysitting LCFs and silos. From leaknoil at gmail.com Sun May 29 01:09:42 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 23:09:42 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <972335.1706.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <972335.1706.qm@web82606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8AA3FDC8-4E79-4204-ABD9-A62608CB1010@gmail.com> I used to play around in a Titan silo as kid. It was a lot of fun. It felt like we were a million miles underground sometimes. What did they use for guidance computers ? On May 28, 2011, at 10:48 PM, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Sat, 5/28/11, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > Eariler ICBMs such as the Atlas and Titan I had to be fueled > immediately prior to launch. The Titan II used storable liquid > propellants, but they were highly corrosive, which led to problems. > The Titan IIs had a reasonably long lifetime, into the 80s, but > the others were only briefly. > > --Bill > From jws at jwsss.com Sun May 29 01:46:40 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 23:46:40 -0700 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE1EBD0.20108@jwsss.com> A fellow I worked with who was in the Air Force in the early 60's then a hardware designer for Astrodata was babysitting Minutman 1's (I suspect) during the Cuban Missile Crisis, and the son of a friend now is a commander of a crew there now. The unit I have is just the electronics, with no software, so no more related to the mil uses than saying you have to destroy all 386s and so forth because some may be used in other machines. The D17's that are surviving w/o the disks are not useful anymore. Also I suspect that the programming may have been recorded on the disks such that it could not be erased, since thermally programming magnetic media for permanent retention of data is also something I saw with surplus Nike program tapes that were scrapped in the late 60's when I was trying to find recording tape for my tape recorder. In that way the guidance program could not be tampered with, and also would probably be more reliable. Jim On 5/28/2011 10:50 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > No problem, I was mostly working from memory, my younger brother was at > Grand Forks AFB and Minot babysitting LCFs and silos. > From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Sun May 29 07:11:47 2011 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:11:47 -0400 Subject: Collection is cleaned out, gone... Message-ID: <4DE23803.9090006@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi all, Thanks for all the responses and offers. William Donzelli took everything, including all the manuals and handbooks. Quite a haul. My thanks to Will for keeping this stuff from the dump. If there was somehting particular you were looking for, you might want to send him a note. Joe Heck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 08:29:27 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 09:29:27 -0400 Subject: next: minuteman II computer D17C / was Re: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <73c271129928565444c6a82fe1274759@cs.ubc.ca> References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> <73c271129928565444c6a82fe1274759@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Or did the military belatedly decide it wasn't a good idea to release these, > with software or without? Release of the D17Bs was probably a mistake, and I bet a few heads rolled because of it. The military generally will not release anything technical related to nuclear warfare, larger missiles, ECM, crypto, or submarines - not even something as mundane as a test cable to some tertiary subsystem from a little used system. In the 20some years I have been doing surplus, I have never seen anything even remotely significant from these fields "out in the wild", unless completely demilled (gutted and/or crushed and shredded). So don't hold your breath. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun May 29 08:31:20 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 09:31:20 -0400 Subject: TK25 Problem In-Reply-To: <4DE138EA.9040003@compsys.to> References: <4DE11729.6090602@compsys.to> <4DE138EA.9040003@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE24AA8.50701@compsys.to> >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> After 20 years, I need to use my TK25 again. >> >> I now remember why I switched to the TK70. I takes >> about 4 minutes every time I need to change a tape. >> >> Now there is a hardware problem. When I insert >> a different tape, the tension cycle shows a flashing >> (left side of the front panel) green light until the cycle >> is complete. I am confident that the light changed >> to solid green in the past, but now the light stays >> unlit and the unit is not ready. At first, I tried to >> boot RT-11, but no luck. By accident, I needed >> to turn off the power, and then turn it back on. >> The TK25 power was left on and as soon as >> the PDP-11 started the boot cycle, the green >> light on the TK25 turned solid green. After >> RT-11 had booted from the hard drive, the TK25 >> is ready and everything works. >> >> Any suggestions? Controller? Drive? Cable? >> Since it takes 4 minutes for the tension cycle, >> having to boot again (less than a minute) is not >> a deal breaker. >> >> Also, now just a boot turns the green light on. > > > Just to clarify: > > An ordinary boot via an RT-11 command does > not solve the problem. The BOOT command > must be done via the "restart" button on the > front panel of the BA23 box. > >> Thank you in advance for any suggestions? > Um..... THERE IS A BUTTON TO PRESS! It is beside the flashing green light. Um ... It was dark in the room most of the time. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 09:20:43 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:20:43 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > For the same reason anyone implements any other CPU in an FPGA -- so > you can use that CPU architecture in a modern design or as a hardware > simulation of a vintage design. If a hobbyist wants to play with Transputers, the easiest thing to do is just wait until some become available. The things have been floating to the surface for some time now, probably because of hoarding. > I think there's a difference between commercial success and not > working well. ?"Not working well" implies to me that it had some > functional deficiency. ?Transputers ended up not being commercially > successful because they were expensive and not many people wanted to > program in Occam, despite whatever advantages CSP may have had. Inmos managed to miss both of those targets, although I am hesitant to call it a complete commercial failure. They managed to sell a good few of them, but not the "take over the world" amount they certainly were boasting about. The simple systems worked fairly well, due to the raw speed of the processors, but the massive systems stumbled because of the networking. Things basically did not scale well. The Transputer story reflects the whole MPP industry of the 1980s - lots of neat ideas, and lots of "close, but no cigars". Meiko, Convex Exemplar, Thinking Machines, Maspar. Lots of what we learned falls into "what not to do" territory. -- Will, sacred cow tipper From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 09:26:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 10:26:45 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE257A5.9040205@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 10:20 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Inmos managed to miss both of those targets, although I am hesitant to > call it a complete commercial failure. They managed to sell a good few > of them, but not the "take over the world" amount they certainly were > boasting about. The simple systems worked fairly well, due to the raw > speed of the processors, but the massive systems stumbled because of > the networking. Things basically did not scale well. > > The Transputer story reflects the whole MPP industry of the 1980s - > lots of neat ideas, and lots of "close, but no cigars". Meiko, Convex > Exemplar, Thinking Machines, Maspar. Lots of what we learned falls > into "what not to do" territory. > > -- > Will, sacred cow tipper [reminds self to send Will a book about array processor design] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Sun May 29 10:00:08 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 17:00:08 +0200 Subject: Dec M9401 module available Message-ID: Found during sorting out some stuff, a Dec M9401. Text says 'mirror image cable connect module for LSI-11' It has 2 50 pin berg connectors Eur 10 + postage (send from NL) Msg me off list if you have questions Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 29 10:54:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 08:54:30 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DE209C6.24926.7919F@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2011 at 10:20, William Donzelli wrote: > The Transputer story reflects the whole MPP industry of the 1980s - > lots of neat ideas, and lots of "close, but no cigars". Meiko, Convex > Exemplar, Thinking Machines, Maspar. Lots of what we learned falls > into "what not to do" territory. Add to that Evans and Sutherland. Though they managed to hang on as a company by recognizing their weaknesses. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 29 13:32:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 12:32:31 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > For the same reason anyone implements any other CPU in an FPGA -- so > > you can use that CPU architecture in a modern design or as a hardware > > simulation of a vintage design. > > If a hobbyist wants to play with Transputers, the easiest thing to do > is just wait until some become available. The things have been > floating to the surface for some time now, probably because of > hoarding. Well, I've had my eye out for them for some time and at least where I've looked, they're still pricey. > The Transputer story reflects the whole MPP industry of the 1980s - > lots of neat ideas, and lots of "close, but no cigars". Meiko, Convex > Exemplar, Thinking Machines, Maspar. Lots of what we learned falls > into "what not to do" territory. Well, Meiko *is* a transputer machine, so its not another example of failure. By MPP I'm assuming you mean message-passing parallelism? As opposed to symmetric multi-processing? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 29 13:41:52 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 12:41:52 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE209C6.24926.7919F@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DE209C6.24926.7919F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4DE209C6.24926.7919F at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 29 May 2011 at 10:20, William Donzelli wrote: > > > The Transputer story reflects the whole MPP industry of the 1980s - > > lots of neat ideas, and lots of "close, but no cigars". Meiko, Convex > > Exemplar, Thinking Machines, Maspar. Lots of what we learned falls > > into "what not to do" territory. > > Add to that Evans and Sutherland. Are you talking about the ES-1? > Though they managed to hang on as > a company by recognizing their weaknesses. Exactly the opposite case could be made; they sold off all their productive business units and kept the underperforming ones. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 14:51:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 15:51:41 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > By MPP I'm assuming you mean message-passing parallelism? As > opposed to symmetric multi-processing? Massive systems. Remember when we were all supposed to have oodles of little processors we could throw at any problem? -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 15:36:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 16:36:32 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE2AE50.6010900@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 3:51 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> By MPP I'm assuming you mean message-passing parallelism? As >> opposed to symmetric multi-processing? > > Massive systems. Remember when we were all supposed to have oodles of little > processors ...which is a big part of what we've got now.. > we could throw at any problem? Well, *some* problems. Nobody in the game (well, nobody who knew what they were talking about) was ever under any illusions that all problems could effectively map to a massively parallel system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 29 15:41:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 13:41:04 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: , <4DE209C6.24926.7919F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DE24CF0.13079.10DED41@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2011 at 12:41, Richard wrote: > Are you talking about the ES-1? Yes. > Exactly the opposite case could be made; they sold off all their > productive business units and kept the underperforming ones. Two different episodes, I think. First was axeing the ES-1 and concentrating more on simulation hardware. The second was not-so- wisely selling the simulation stuff (particularly the military stuff) to Rockwell-Collins and keeping the imaging business. I think the first was good business sense; the second, as a move of desperation in order to stay solvent. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 29 15:59:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 13:59:30 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE2AE50.6010900@neurotica.com> References: , , <4DE2AE50.6010900@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE25142.19331.11ECF66@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2011 at 16:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > Well, *some* problems. Nobody in the game (well, nobody who knew > what they were talking about) was ever under any illusions that all > problems could effectively map to a massively parallel system. I think (but can't remember for certain) that it was Neil Lincoln who compared massively parallel processors to using nine women to get a baby in one month. Some problems just don't parallelize well... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 16:02:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 17:02:40 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE25142.19331.11ECF66@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DE2AE50.6010900@neurotica.com> <4DE25142.19331.11ECF66@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DE2B470.40700@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 4:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, *some* problems. Nobody in the game (well, nobody who knew >> what they were talking about) was ever under any illusions that all >> problems could effectively map to a massively parallel system. > > I think (but can't remember for certain) that it was Neil Lincoln who > compared massively parallel processors to using nine women to get a > baby in one month. I love that quote. :) > Some problems just don't parallelize well... It's true. Though the theorists have made great strides in recent years, there will always be problems that just won't map to that type of architecture. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 29 17:00:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 16:00:15 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > Massive systems. Remember when we were all supposed to have oodles of little > processors we could throw at any problem? With current multicore CPUs and the SIMD arrays in GPUs, one could argue that Transputer, ConnectionMachine, etc., were just too early. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 17:04:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 18:04:32 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE2C2F0.6030304@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 6:00 PM, Richard wrote: >> Massive systems. Remember when we were all supposed to have oodles of little >> processors we could throw at any problem? > > With current multicore CPUs and the SIMD arrays in GPUs, one could > argue that Transputer, ConnectionMachine, etc., were just too early. There were plenty of array machines during those years; they've been around pretty much constantly since well before the Transputer era. It's not as if it's a new thing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 29 17:07:32 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 16:07:32 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE24CF0.13079.10DED41@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DE209C6.24926.7919F@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DE24CF0.13079.10DED41@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <4DE24CF0.13079.10DED41 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > On 29 May 2011 at 12:41, Richard wrote: > > > Are you talking about the ES-1? > > Yes. ES-1 had a very narrow market window. The design functioned properly at lower clock rates, but one of the chips essentially melted when they ran it at the specified clock rate. The design was non-competitive at lower clock rates. E&S is just one of many companies that missed a transition to smaller devices. E&S never really adapted to the transition to workstations; when a workstation was proposed inside the company, it was said that David Evans pronounced workstations "a fad". When E&S finally did make a workstation in 1988/1989, it was too late to enter as a distinct competitor. They later tried to make graphics adapters for other workstations (Sun, HP, IBM) and had some success there, but it was again too late. Even with acquisition of PC accelerator companies, they were not able to compete in the PC world effectively, either. They were relegated to high-end simulation systems but even there SGI machines were stealing away market share from them. E&S had great engineers but amazingly bad marketing and management. > > Exactly the opposite case could be made; they sold off all their > > productive business units and kept the underperforming ones. > > Two different episodes, I think. First was axeing the ES-1 and > concentrating more on simulation hardware. The second was not-so- > wisely selling the simulation stuff (particularly the military stuff) > to Rockwell-Collins and keeping the imaging business. > > I think the first was good business sense; the second, as a move of > desperation in order to stay solvent. IMO, they never should have embarked on ES-1 to begin with. While late with their workstation effort, they did manage to prove that PHIGS/PEX could be implemented with good performance. While not the only deciding factor, this probably redoubled the efforts of SGI to create OpenGL as a defacto standard instead of the industry settling on PHIGS/PHIGS-PLUS which is an ISO standard. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 29 17:25:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 15:25:56 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE2C2F0.6030304@neurotica.com> References: , , <4DE2C2F0.6030304@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE26584.13661.16DF06B@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 May 2011 at 18:04, Dave McGuire wrote: > There were plenty of array machines during those years; they've > been > around pretty much constantly since well before the Transputer era. > It's not as if it's a new thing. ILLIAC IV anyone? --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 17:26:57 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 18:26:57 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > With current multicore CPUs and the SIMD arrays in GPUs, one could > argue that Transputer, ConnectionMachine, etc., were just too early. Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly hope technology would have marched on during those years. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 17:34:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 18:34:15 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE26584.13661.16DF06B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE2C2F0.6030304@neurotica.com> <4DE26584.13661.16DF06B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > ILLIAC IV anyone? The idea is old as dirt. I am talking about the mid-1980s, when microprocessors were cheap and fast enough to be assembled into a massive system and really do well in the price/performance area. Sure, you could have made an MPP system with some cheap minicomputers like PDP-8/Fs, but the beancounters would start screaming. And I bet it would have sucked. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 17:39:46 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 18:39:46 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE2CB32.2030409@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 6:26 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> With current multicore CPUs and the SIMD arrays in GPUs, one could >> argue that Transputer, ConnectionMachine, etc., were just too early. > > Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We > are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly > hope technology would have marched on during those years. Good heavens. Transputers were by no means "early attempts" at massively parallel machines. Yikes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 17:40:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 18:40:32 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE26584.13661.16DF06B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DE2C2F0.6030304@neurotica.com> <4DE26584.13661.16DF06B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DE2CB60.8050305@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 6:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> There were plenty of array machines during those years; they've >> been >> around pretty much constantly since well before the Transputer era. >> It's not as if it's a new thing. > > ILLIAC IV anyone? Yeah really. ICL DAP, FPS AP-120...oodles more. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun May 29 17:53:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 16:53:53 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > With current multicore CPUs and the SIMD arrays in GPUs, one could > > argue that Transputer, ConnectionMachine, etc., were just too early. > > Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We > are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly > hope technology would have marched on during those years. The architectures aren't substantially different; the component density and communication latencies/bandwidth are substantially different. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Sun May 29 17:54:56 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 08:54:56 +1000 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <20110522204622.ecb064df.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <4DDAC2B6.2010202@machineroom.info> <20110524222508.f759567b.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, May 25, 2011 at 7:42 AM, Richard wrote: > People used Occam (a variation of Tony Hoare's CSP, Communicating > Sequential Processes) or C to program the transputer. ?Occam has some > basic primitives to support reliable parallel processing. and CSP is making a comeback in the form of Google's Go language: http://golang.org/doc/go_faq.html#csp From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun May 29 18:05:19 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 19:05:19 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > The architectures aren't substantially different; the component > density and communication latencies/bandwidth are substantially > different. In other words, the networking. I mentioned that previously as the stumbling block. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 18:11:13 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 19:11:13 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4DE2D291.3000705@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 7:05 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The architectures aren't substantially different; the component >> density and communication latencies/bandwidth are substantially >> different. > > In other words, the networking. I mentioned that previously as the > stumbling block. Interesting. When in fact the Transputer's networking was significantly better than just about anything else that had been built by that time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun May 29 20:27:41 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 21:27:41 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? Message-ID: > Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We > are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly > hope technology would have marched on during those years. If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong problem. Really. Tim. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 29 22:28:59 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 23:28:59 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We >> are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly >> hope technology would have marched on during those years. > > If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong problem. 10 GOTO 10 Parallelize THAT. Peace... Sridhar From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 29 22:36:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 20:36:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> References: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110529203418.A99292@shell.lmi.net> > If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong problem. One process to hold the light bulb, and the others to turn the ladder? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun May 29 22:42:25 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 21:42:25 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> References: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DE31221.7020508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/29/2011 9:28 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We >>> are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly >>> hope technology would have marched on during those years. >> >> If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong >> problem. > > 10 GOTO 10 > > Parallelize THAT. Hmm Wrong Language. 10 please do Come from 10 > > Peace... Sridhar > Still they make good movie props ... look at Jurassic Park. Ben. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 23:00:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 00:00:36 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> References: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DE31664.5050501@neurotica.com> On 5/29/11 11:28 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We >>> are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly >>> hope technology would have marched on during those years. >> >> If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong >> problem. > > 10 GOTO 10 > > Parallelize THAT. Is the goal to decrease the execution time of one iteration, or perform as many iterations as possible in one unit of time? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun May 29 23:04:26 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 00:04:26 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE31664.5050501@neurotica.com> References: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> <4DE31664.5050501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE3174A.4040308@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/29/11 11:28 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We >>>> are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly >>>> hope technology would have marched on during those years. >>> >>> If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong >>> problem. >> >> 10 GOTO 10 >> >> Parallelize THAT. > > Is the goal to decrease the execution time of one iteration, or perform > as many iterations as possible in one unit of time? ;) Your question boils down to: Do we want the world's fastest NOP or the most NOPs per second? :) Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun May 29 23:06:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 00:06:14 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE3174A.4040308@gmail.com> References: <4DE30EFB.5010004@gmail.com> <4DE31664.5050501@neurotica.com> <4DE3174A.4040308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4DE317B6.4050702@neurotica.com> On 5/30/11 12:04 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> Well, yes. A lot of early attempts at *anything* kind of sucked. We >>>>> are now 20 odd years past the MPP "boom" of the mid 80s - I certainly >>>>> hope technology would have marched on during those years. >>>> >>>> If your problem isn't embarrassingly parallel, you're doing the wrong >>>> problem. >>> >>> 10 GOTO 10 >>> >>> Parallelize THAT. >> >> Is the goal to decrease the execution time of one iteration, or perform >> as many iterations as possible in one unit of time? ;) > > Your question boils down to: Do we want the world's fastest NOP or the > most NOPs per second? :) Exactly! We really should have conversations like this when we're drinking. Oh, wait...we do! 8-D -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon May 30 03:21:47 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 01:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: S100 transformers Message-ID: I have five transformers marked "Morrow" that appear to be intended for building linear power supplies for S100 machines. If anyone wants one, they're $20 each shipped. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon May 30 04:53:40 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 06:53:40 -0300 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing References: <85FC9E0AF847466588B51F7324F8D4AB@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <83FB2020076B4B63B4034E5F10CCEAF5@portajara> > The N8 is an "all in one" design with Z8S180, 1 MB SRAM, 1 MB EPROM or > 512KB > Flash, dual serial ports, parallel printer port, PS/2 keyboard and mouse > ports, RTC and NVSRAM (DS1302), composite NTSC video (TMS9918A), audio > (AY-3-8910), dual joystick ports, IDE port, FDC port, SD socket, optional > CSIO port, optional RS-485 networking port, and ECB bus expansion. It can > be powered from a 9VDC wall supply or from a scrap PC power supply and > fits > on a 10"x6" PCB. Are you building a "MSX on a card" ? :oD From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon May 30 06:15:45 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 07:15:45 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? Message-ID: > 10 GOTO 10 > Parallelize THAT. By the 1970's many timesharing and batch type compilers would kick out the embarrassingly useless programs without even trying (the environment well tested by millions of college student's programming attempts). I think the line between embarrassingly useless and embarrassingly parallel may not always be obvious. In many university-type batch processing systems, student programs that ran for more than 5 CPU seconds were summarily terminated as "obviously being stuck in some kind of infinite loop that the compiler can't catch yet". Just a few years later the same problems probably qualified for Grand Challenge grants :-) I remember when a very big fear of the US govt, was that the Japanese would wipe us out with Fifth Generation computers. (The WMD of the 80's) Boy, did that miss the mark. The Japanese came up with the Fuji Eagle (perhaps the most defining commodity-computing storage element ever) and today teraflop-class vector processors are in every fanboy's computer and they're called "graphics cards". Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 30 10:27:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 08:27:13 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2011 at 7:15, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Boy, did that miss the mark. The Japanese came up with the Fuji Eagle > (perhaps the most defining commodity-computing storage element ever) > and today teraflop-class vector processors are in every fanboy's > computer and they're called "graphics cards". The big enemy of supercomputer engineering today is Moore's Law. By the time design and testing is complete and product is rolling off the line, it's obsolete. Better to spend your time building a fast bit of silicon and hoping that it'll see a 6 month to one year product window. Going through the effort of designing an building a mainframe-style supercomputer such as a Cray 3 would be folly today. Witness Steve Chen's "box full of Pentiums" as how badly this sort of thing can go. And it's getting steadily worse. Designing and implementing a new CPU architecture today is becoming a matter of how fast one can cook up a chunk of VHDL. Eventually, I suspect we'll get to the point where a chip will be obsolete by the time the trade rags have gotten aroud to announcing it. Consider that people were prosecuted for espionage for passing "secrets" to the Soviets about the Saxpy Matrix-1 CPU in 1987. Who even remembers Saxpy now (aside from the name of a LINPACK program set)? Saxpy made their product announcement in 1987 and they were pretty much out of business by the end of 1988. I can't even keep up with CPU and microcontroller announcements today. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 30 10:31:15 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:31:15 +0100 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE16563.2030100@neurotica.com> References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> <4DE16563.2030100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 28 May 2011 22:13, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 5/28/11 4:33 PM, Richard wrote: >> >> All this transputer talk makes me wonder if anyone has implemented the >> CPU as an FPGA? > > ?The designer of the Transputer architecture, Dave May, hasn't been sitting > still. ?His new(ish) company, XMOS, is selling some really nice chips that > are generally considered to be descendants of the Transputer architecture. > ?I've not yet messed with them, but they've been on my list since I heard > about them a year or two ago. Oh, cool, I did not know that. XMOS make the coprocessor in the new (not yet commercially-available) AmigaOne X1000. I've seen & played with the prototype - it's a very appealing machine and in the form of AmigaOS 4.1 with a pleasingly small, efficient and very fast OS, plus a respectable library of applications (OK, most running under emulation, but hey) /and/ a choice of decent modern Linux ports. http://www.a-eon.com/ I hadn't realised the XCore XS1-L1 sort-of-RISCy sort-of-DSP-like coprocessor of undefined functionality was in any way Transputer-related. It doesn't make it any more use, but it makes it cooler. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 30 11:12:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 12:12:05 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> <4DE16563.2030100@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE3C1D5.5090501@neurotica.com> On 5/30/11 11:31 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> The designer of the Transputer architecture, Dave May, hasn't been sitting >> still. His new(ish) company, XMOS, is selling some really nice chips that >> are generally considered to be descendants of the Transputer architecture. >> I've not yet messed with them, but they've been on my list since I heard >> about them a year or two ago. > > Oh, cool, I did not know that. > > XMOS make the coprocessor in the new (not yet commercially-available) > AmigaOne X1000. I've seen& played with the prototype - it's a very > appealing machine and in the form of AmigaOS 4.1 with a pleasingly > small, efficient and very fast OS, plus a respectable library of > applications (OK, most running under emulation, but hey) /and/ a > choice of decent modern Linux ports. > > http://www.a-eon.com/ Yes. :) WANT!! > I hadn't realised the XCore XS1-L1 sort-of-RISCy sort-of-DSP-like > coprocessor of undefined functionality was in any way > Transputer-related. It doesn't make it any more use, but it makes it > cooler. :?) You should check out the architecture and read about its history. It's interesting stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon May 30 11:34:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 12:34:26 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DE3C712.4050807@neurotica.com> On 5/30/11 11:27 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The big enemy of supercomputer engineering today is Moore's Law. By > the time design and testing is complete and product is rolling off > the line, it's obsolete. Better to spend your time building a fast > bit of silicon and hoping that it'll see a 6 month to one year > product window. As far as semiconductor process evolution goes, definitely. The type of innovation that can make an impact and last a while is architectural. > Going through the effort of designing an building a mainframe-style > supercomputer such as a Cray 3 would be folly today. Witness Steve > Chen's "box full of Pentiums" as how badly this sort of thing can go. Pentia? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon May 30 13:56:57 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 14:56:57 -0400 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing Message-ID: Alexandre Souza - Listas pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com ________________________________ > The N8 is an "all in one" design with Z8S180, 1 MB SRAM, 1 MB EPROM or > 512KB > Flash, dual serial ports, parallel printer port, PS/2 keyboard and mouse > ports, RTC and NVSRAM (DS1302), composite NTSC video (TMS9918A), audio > (AY-3-8910), dual joystick ports, IDE port, FDC port, SD socket, optional > CSIO port, optional RS-485 networking port, and ECB bus expansion. It can > be powered from a 9VDC wall supply or from a scrap PC power supply and > fits > on a 10"x6" PCB. Are you building a "MSX on a card" ? :oD -----REPLY----- Hi, I am not sure what you mean by your comment but I'll assume it is a serious question I'll take a try at answering it. The intent of the N8 is to be a unique all in one home brew computer with the major functionality built in such as CPU, memory, video, audio, basic IO, and disk storage. Unlike the N8VEM SBC V2 most builders will probably not want to expand it using the ECB backplane although that is retained as an option. The N8 is a little like a combination of a high performance Z180 system like a SB-180, YASBEC, or P112 and an MSX computer. You can plug the N8 into an ECB backplane although it is much larger than the usual Eurocard 160x100mm format board. It has the Z8S180 CPU and a lot of integrated peripherals like the SB-180, YASBEC, and P112 although all DIP/PLCC plated through hole PCB construction for easy hobbyist assembly. Only a couple optional SMT parts are used. In theory the CPU is capable of 33 MHz operation although since the CPU clock is also used for serial baud rate calculations 29.4912 MHz or 24.576 MHz are probably realistic. The N8 has some MSX hardware compatibility and can run many MSX games particularly at BIOS level compatibility. However hardware compatibility is not 100% so it is not an MSX clone computer. There are several major differences such as the use of PS/2 keyboard and some IO peripherals are at differing locations. There are a lot of builder photos and videos present on the N8VEM wiki in the N8 folder so feel free to review them. Also the schematics, PCB layout, and parts list are also posted although not the most current version. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From legalize at xmission.com Mon May 30 14:32:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 13:32:36 -0600 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > The architectures aren't substantially different; the component > > density and communication latencies/bandwidth are substantially > > different. > > In other words, the networking. I mentioned that previously as the > stumbling block. Topologically, they are the same. As far as architecture goes, its the topology that matters. As far as commercial success goes, its the performance that matters. You seem to think they failed on both architecture and commercial success. I'm saying they couldn't make a go of it in the market, but eventually their ideas proved out. Right idea, wrong time/implementation. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From kf5eqz at cox.net Sun May 29 16:14:49 2011 From: kf5eqz at cox.net (kf5eqz at cox.net) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 17:14:49 -0400 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <20110529171449.GNSYE.606721.imail@eastrmwml31> Brian, You had posted back in 2006 that you have the manual for the Radio Shack 300 in one Science Fair. Could you email me copy of the manual? It would be greatly appreciated. I haven't been able to find one online anywhere. Thanks so much. Grant From pinball at telus.net Sat May 28 11:08:30 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 09:08:30 -0700 Subject: Data I/O manual sought in PDF format. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE11DFE.6030302@telus.net> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > Looking for the Calibration/Service manual for the Unipak 2B unit, it has > schematics in it and the calibration procedures. Since some of the adapters > are unobtanium, with the service/cal manual it should be possible to reverse > engineer some of the adapters :) > > There is a Data I/O mail list with support files... <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Data_IO_EPROM/ John :-#)# From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat May 28 15:46:31 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 16:46:31 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28 May 2011 15:19, Tony Duell wrote: >> I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > > Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. > > -tony > But one first needs to get said peripherals! ...Which can probably be found on the ex-Soviet surplus market; or purchased new from the Chinese. ...And which might carry the small risk of spontaneously exploding. From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sat May 28 17:04:59 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sat, 28 May 2011 18:04:59 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 28 May 2011 17:52, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. > On Sat, 28 May 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. > > Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? > Well, the major bundled peripherals are the LGM-30A (or LGM-30B) and the W56. The former might be found in a museum somewhere. The latter would probably have to have a work-alike unit built. Which can probably be found in . Then again, I highly doubt would give you one. Also I'm pretty sure using the D-17B with its original peripherals might irrevocably damage the D-17B. There's also the collateral damage of making a city disappear. But the major issue is losing the D-17B; there are only so many of them left! From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Sun May 29 20:28:29 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Sun, 29 May 2011 21:28:29 -0400 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <20110528221639.H67931@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110528145139.S67931@shell.lmi.net> <20110528221639.H67931@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >From trusty (hah!) old Wikipedia... The Minuteman I (and Minuteman II) were three stage, solid rocket fuel missiles. The warhead they carried had a yield of 1.2 megatonnes. The Minuteman guidance computer was the first one crammed into a missile (first attempt was actually the SM-64 Navaho [sic], which didn't work out). They were also the first solid fuel missiles. (So, significantly less time needed to go from "Holy shit! They be nukin' our base!" to "Here, taste some return pwnage." It mostly cut out the whole step of fueling ("Pump faster extremely toxic chemicals!").) On 29 May 2011 01:21, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> I also bet that operating one would be a treaty violation. >> >> Only if it's connected to certain peripherals. >> > Which peripherals were originally bundled with it? >> A big, long shiny thing with a noisy bit at one end and REALLY noisy bit >> at the other. > > Actually, I was kinda asking for some details of what kind of missile the > "minuteman" was. > > But the answers so far have been much more entertaining than that! > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon May 30 15:29:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 16:29:12 -0400 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: References: <4DE00AA4.7040604@machineroom.info> Message-ID: > Topologically, they are the same. ?As far as architecture goes, its > the topology that matters. ?As far as commercial success goes, its > the performance that matters. ?You seem to think they failed on both > architecture and commercial success. ?I'm saying they couldn't make a > go of it in the market, but eventually their ideas proved out. ?Right > idea, wrong time/implementation. And I am still saying that because the networking between the processors was not good, performance sucked for anything that involved a large number of processors with problems involving lots of message passing between nodes. This was the flaw of pretty much all of those early commercial MPP systems - regardless of the topology. You could have a fully interconnected crossbar for all the nodes of an MPP system, but if that crossbar is crap, then the whole system is going to be crap. "Wrong time/implementation" pretty much equals "did not work all that well", as I see it, regardless of how things have turned out today. -- Will From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon May 30 15:31:00 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 13:31:00 -0700 Subject: Data I/O manual sought in PDF format. In-Reply-To: <4DE11DFE.6030302@telus.net> Message-ID: On 5/28/11 9:08 AM, "John Robertson" wrote: > Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> Looking for the Calibration/Service manual for the Unipak 2B unit, it has >> schematics in it and the calibration procedures. Since some of the adapters >> are unobtanium, with the service/cal manual it should be possible to reverse >> engineer some of the adapters :) >> >> > There is a Data I/O mail list with support files... > > <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Data_IO_EPROM/ > > John :-#)# > I'm on that list, but only found the operation manual. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 30 15:35:11 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 13:35:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110530133403.W35373@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 May 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Eventually, I suspect we'll get to the point where a chip will be > obsolete by the time the trade rags have gotten aroud to announcing > it. "To see the current chips, press F5" From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 30 16:05:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 14:05:59 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110530133403.W35373@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110530133403.W35373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DE3A447.14973.145F09C@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 May 2011 at 13:35, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 30 May 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Eventually, I suspect we'll get to the point where a chip will be > > obsolete by the time the trade rags have gotten aroud to announcing > > it. > > "To see the current chips, press F5" Back to the "nine women, baby in one month" quip--now that I think of it, I don't recall who was the first to say it. I know that I heard it from a number of people prior to 1975, but it's also in Fred Brooks' "Mythical Man month" book. Does anyone know the origin of the statement? Brooks' book was mandatory reading for project managers at CDC in the 70s. Is it still used at all? --Chuck P.S. I believe that Gene Amdahl had something to say about parallelizing problems... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 30 16:09:52 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 15:09:52 -0600 Subject: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE407A0.7070702@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/28/2011 2:46 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote: > ...Which can probably be found on the ex-Soviet surplus market; or > purchased new from the Chinese. > > > > > ...And which might carry the small risk of spontaneously exploding. > That is you have your Relay Launch Computer. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 30 16:32:30 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 14:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE3A447.14973.145F09C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110530133403.W35373@shell.lmi.net> <4DE3A447.14973.145F09C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110530142422.I35373@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 30 May 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back to the "nine women, baby in one month" quip--now that I think of > it, I don't recall who was the first to say it. I know that I heard > it from a number of people prior to 1975, but it's also in Fred > Brooks' "Mythical Man month" book. > Does anyone know the origin of the statement? Brooks' book was > mandatory reading for project managers at CDC in the 70s. Is it > still used at all? I would be interested if you can find any authoritative attribution. I have even heard it attributed to Werner Von Braun, but I don't think that that is reliable. It'll probably be as hard to find definitive attribution as it is for "It is easier to get forgiveness than permission." or: "Those who wouldst take away our rights will start by redefining them as privileges [of the crown]?" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jtp at chinalake.com Mon May 30 16:48:11 2011 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 17:48:11 -0400 Subject: minuteman II computer D17C / was Re: minuteman guidance computer D17B Message-ID: <000001cc1f13$459ae300$d0d0a900$@chinalake.com> > And then there is the D37D of the minuteman III. TI and the minuteman related bits: http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/company/history/timeline/defense/1960/docs/62-sp ecial_ics.htm D37D onboard was used in the initial minuteman III missile guidance set (MGS), the NS-20 configuration. It was about 1/4 the size of the D17, still contained a disk and was/is visually less interesting. It has been replaced with the 16-bit missile guidance computer (MGC) in the current NS-50 MGS. The MGS contained the computer, gyro system, amp and guidance set. In the NS-50 configuration the amp is part of the MGC. The MGS is contained in a slice that sits below the reentry system (warhead and associated support systems). Although START [treaty] dramatically reduced the number and capabilities, there are 400+ MMIII ICBMs that remain operational. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon May 30 17:51:03 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 15:51:03 -0700 Subject: minuteman II computer D17C / was Re: minuteman guidance computer D17B In-Reply-To: <000001cc1f13$459ae300$d0d0a900$@chinalake.com> References: <000001cc1f13$459ae300$d0d0a900$@chinalake.com> Message-ID: <2731cda1a595b04aba86db10c15ec9ea@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 May 30, at 2:48 PM, J. Peterson wrote: >> And then there is the D37D of the minuteman III. > TI and the minuteman related bits: > http://www.ti.com/corp/docs/company/history/timeline/defense/1960/ > docs/62-sp > ecial_ics.htm > Yes, I did see that page. The Minuteman Series ICs are listed in TI's 1965 catalog, here's a photo of the page: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/TI1965Minuteman.jpg with attribution to Autonetics and the Minuteman II. Doesn't seem likely that we're going to see the D37C that used them. I wonder what other equipment might have used them, as apparently TI made them available outside the minuteman contract. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon May 30 20:34:13 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 20:34:13 -0500 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing In-Reply-To: <83FB2020076B4B63B4034E5F10CCEAF5@portajara> References: <85FC9E0AF847466588B51F7324F8D4AB@andrewdesktop>, <83FB2020076B4B63B4034E5F10CCEAF5@portajara> Message-ID: > From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: new Z180 based SBC beta testing > Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 06:53:40 -0300 > > > The N8 is an "all in one" design with Z8S180, 1 MB SRAM, 1 MB EPROM or > > 512KB > > Flash, dual serial ports, parallel printer port, PS/2 keyboard and mouse > > ports, RTC and NVSRAM (DS1302), composite NTSC video (TMS9918A), audio > > (AY-3-8910), dual joystick ports, IDE port, FDC port, SD socket, optional > > CSIO port, optional RS-485 networking port, and ECB bus expansion. It can > > be powered from a 9VDC wall supply or from a scrap PC power supply and > > fits > > on a 10"x6" PCB. > > Are you building a "MSX on a card" ? :oD > > I didn't know you could still get the TMS9918 Heart of the TI 99/4 A cool add on board for those of us that started with the TI9900 'University Board' trainer, a video card that plugged on top from Eyring Research From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue May 31 00:02:46 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 00:02:46 -0500 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110530142422.I35373@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110530133403.W35373@shell.lmi.net> <4DE3A447.14973.145F09C@cclist.sydex.com> <20110530142422.I35373@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DE47676.6080104@tx.rr.com> On 5/30/2011 4:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 30 May 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Back to the "nine women, baby in one month" quip--now that I think of >> it, I don't recall who was the first to say it. I know that I heard >> it from a number of people prior to 1975, but it's also in Fred >> Brooks' "Mythical Man month" book. >> Does anyone know the origin of the statement? Brooks' book was >> mandatory reading for project managers at CDC in the 70s. Is it >> still used at all? > > I would be interested if you can find any authoritative attribution. I > have even heard it attributed to Werner Von Braun, but I don't think that > that is reliable. > > It'll probably be as hard to find definitive attribution as it is for "It > is easier to get forgiveness than permission." I've thought for years that one was from Grace Hopper, but ICBW. Later, Charlie C. > or: > "Those who wouldst take away our rights will start by redefining them as > privileges [of the crown]?" > > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 31 05:57:20 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 05:57:20 -0500 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE25142.19331.11ECF66@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE2AE50.6010900@neurotica.com> <4DE25142.19331.11ECF66@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110531105720.GZ15589@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (05/29/2011 at 01:59PM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 May 2011 at 16:36, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Well, *some* problems. Nobody in the game (well, nobody who knew > > what they were talking about) was ever under any illusions that all > > problems could effectively map to a massively parallel system. > > I think (but can't remember for certain) that it was Neil Lincoln who > compared massively parallel processors to using nine women to get a > baby in one month. I know I sure heard him say that a lot! > Some problems just don't parallelize well... But there are probably not enough of those kinds of problems to build a computer business around anymore. Not one that makes a profit anyway. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 31 06:25:21 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 06:25:21 -0500 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110531112521.GA15589@n0jcf.net> On Monday (05/30/2011 at 08:27AM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Going through the effort of designing an building a mainframe-style > supercomputer such as a Cray 3 would be folly today. Witness Steve > Chen's "box full of Pentiums" as how badly this sort of thing can go. So, there are some people who still want such things-- and some people who will still build them. I know a thing or two about this system, http://www.nas.nasa.gov/hecc/resources/pleiades.html as I did the architecture for the first version rolled out in 2007-- at 487 TFlop in 100 racks. They've since scaled out to 168 racks, adding higher-end CPUs and can now cross the 1.0 PFlop line with LINPACK. I'm no longer with SGI but this product line continues and has been updated to QDR Infiniband, 10 GbE and other enhancements to the interconnect. I can assure you that the performance of the interconnect is still the bottleneck ;-) which is one reason why we put two parallel IB fabrics into this thing. A node in this machine is pretty much a standard Intel Xeon based server without any disks or power supply. It's built on a slightly different PCB form-factor but is otherwise a standard reference design for such a platform. The whole point was to leverage that commodity stuff so that you could A LOT of it together and scale it out at lower cost than totally proprietary stuff. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue May 31 08:37:00 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:37:00 -0400 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing In-Reply-To: References: <85FC9E0AF847466588B51F7324F8D4AB@andrewdesktop> <83FB2020076B4B63B4034E5F10CCEAF5@portajara> Message-ID: On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I didn't know you could still get the TMS9918 > > Heart of the TI 99/4 > > A cool add on board for those of us that started with the TI9900 ?'University Board' trainer, a video card that plugged on top from Eyring Research I suspect that TMS9918s have to be sourced from dead MSX-1s or 99/4s. BTW, does anybody know if the Yamaha 9938/58 enhanced clones were pin-compatible? The extra colors and hardware acceleration might be nice to have if they'd fit... Mike From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue May 31 09:34:14 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 11:34:14 -0300 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing References: <85FC9E0AF847466588B51F7324F8D4AB@andrewdesktop><83FB2020076B4B63B4034E5F10CCEAF5@portajara> Message-ID: <55FE5A9AACF34F89828159251BEEFFE3@portajara> >I suspect that TMS9918s have to be sourced from dead MSX-1s or 99/4s. It is **VERY** common in Brazil >BTW, does anybody know if the Yamaha 9938/58 enhanced clones were >pin-compatible? The extra colors and hardware acceleration might be >nice to have if they'd fit... No, they are 64 pin 0.05" PDIP From cclist at sydex.com Tue May 31 11:46:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 09:46:32 -0700 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <20110531112521.GA15589@n0jcf.net> References: , <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110531112521.GA15589@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DE4B8F8.5611.42AC1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 May 2011 at 6:25, Chris Elmquist wrote: > http://www.nas.nasa.gov/hecc/resources/pleiades.html And I'm sure the spooks have stuff that would put your example to shame. But where does the NASA setup stand in terms of the Peta- (e.g. NCSA Blue Waters) and Tera-scale (too numerous to mention) projects going on now? A few TFlop sure won't seem like much in one or two years, if what I'm reading is any indication. Used to be that you could get 5-10 years out of a supercomputer. Now that notion seems quaint and will be even more strange in the future. --Chuck From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue May 31 18:51:17 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 19:51:17 -0400 Subject: new Z180 based SBC beta testing Message-ID: new Z180 based SBC beta testing Michael Kerpan madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com On Mon, May 30, 2011 at 9:34 PM, Randy Dawson > wrote: > I didn't know you could still get the TMS9918 > > Heart of the TI 99/4 > > A cool add on board for those of us that started with the TI9900 'University Board' trainer, a video card that plugged on top from Eyring Research I suspect that TMS9918s have to be sourced from dead MSX-1s or 99/4s. BTW, does anybody know if the Yamaha 9938/58 enhanced clones were pin-compatible? The extra colors and hardware acceleration might be nice to have if they'd fit... Mike -----REPLY----- Hi! The TMS9918A and AY-3-8910 are both optional components on the N8. They are both available through multiple vendors and consistently on eBay. They are relatively common and low cost if you look around a bit. The initial build and test team mostly used the bare Z8S180 CPU with its dual serial ports for debugging the boot ROM and CP/M. However, adding the video and audio are very handy debugging tools so I would not discount their usefulness. The V9935/V9958 are not pin compatible but are software backward compatible. They use the Shrink DIP-64 so they are about the same physical size but more complex to trace route. I won't consider upgrading the N8 to use the V9938 or V9958 until after our N8VEM S-100 VDP board comes out based on the V9938/V9958 and verifies the design. The separate N8 design is too far along for such a radical change and the TMS9918A is sufficient for usable NTSC composite video comparable to Commodore 64, Apple II, Atari 800, Jupiter ACE, Timex/Sinclair 1000, etc. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From chrise at pobox.com Tue May 31 19:36:19 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 19:36:19 -0500 Subject: What to do with Transputer Equipment? In-Reply-To: <4DE4B8F8.5611.42AC1D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE354E1.32323.FCA8A@cclist.sydex.com> <20110531112521.GA15589@n0jcf.net> <4DE4B8F8.5611.42AC1D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110601003619.GD2435@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (05/31/2011 at 09:46AM -0700), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 May 2011 at 6:25, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > http://www.nas.nasa.gov/hecc/resources/pleiades.html > > And I'm sure the spooks have stuff that would put your example to > shame. But where does the NASA setup stand in terms of the Peta- > (e.g. NCSA Blue Waters) and Tera-scale (too numerous to mention) > projects going on now? A few TFlop sure won't seem like much in one > or two years, if what I'm reading is any indication. well, it cruises at 750+ TFlop... and peaks at 1.2 PFlop so it's in the ball park. Spooky things are often not general purpose systems that can run anybody's old MPI apps on a familiar OS. Although they can really scream, they are purpose built for a single kind of problem and highly optimized for that situation and as a result, either can't even run or really suck at running less Spooky problems. I don't think PFlop machines are going to be falling from trees any time soon and many that do get there, also aren't general purpose. The thing we got from using commodity hardware is that it also runs "commodity software"... eg, SuSE and RedHat Linux right out of the box. Things are happening with GPUs that improve the local to the node performance but you've still got big challenges getting high node to node bandwidth in order to really make it an MPP. Proprietary interconnects are interesting and cool and maybe really fast but they are also really expensive and tend to be one of the gating factors in the scalability. We used off-the-shelf Infiniband which was (relatively) cheap and so we could use more of it and scale out farther (and faster) for the same money. > Used to be that you could get 5-10 years out of a supercomputer. Now > that notion seems quaint and will be even more strange in the future. Pleiades ran its first benchmarks in November 2007 and made #3 on Top500 then. As far as I know, it is still one of the primary resources for NASA Ames and they continue to expand it and keep it fully utilized. So, in 6 months, it'll be 5 years old. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue May 31 21:21:14 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 22:21:14 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel Message-ID: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> For those of you who have heard about a mythical SIX BUTTON FRONT PANEL for the BA23, it does exist and actually works. NOTE that the first hard disk drive MUST be set to DS3 and the second hard disk drive MUST be set to DS4. You will almost certainly destroy the format for BOTH hard drives if they are both set the same. A SIX button front panel for a BA23 had been sitting on my bench of spare parts for more than a decade. I finally had an opportunity to use it yesterday for the first time to make a backup copy of an RD51 to a second RD51 Both READ ONLY buttons operate independently and can be turned off and on at any time - as expected, but now verified. There is a simple work around which requires a bit of soldering to a short piece of 10 pin cable, but then the READ ONLY button can't be used very well and is not independent for both drives. I imagine that Tony could add a bit more with a switch that would work much better. If you don't ever use the READ ONLY button, then the simple work around will be sufficient. While I first backed up the RD51 to a TK25 before I installed the SIX button front panel, being able to directly copy (and compare) the two hard disk drives (especially an RD51 which takes under 3 minutes) is much more convenient. This is just to let anyone who is interested that if you are using an RQDXn with a BA23, you actually are able to place two hard drives in the same box. If I am also using the RX50, then I usually run extra long cables out the front of the BA23 and keep the RX50 outside the BA23. If the BA23 backplane is full and you are also using a TK70, then I put both the RX50 and the TK70 inside the BA23 and use the extra long cables to the hard disk drives PLUS I use a spare PC power supply for the hard disk drives so that I don't overload the BA23 power supply. NOTE that my experiments using a BA123 and ESDI Hitachi hard drives which tend to run rather hot and also require their own fans (when I used an external PC power supply), I found that the TK70 MUST use the internal power supply from the BA123. I imagine that the same would apply to the BA23 box for both a TK50 and a TK70. Yes, I occasionally do work with real DEC hardware. Jerome Fine From pinball at telus.net Tue May 31 01:21:55 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Mon, 30 May 2011 23:21:55 -0700 Subject: Data I/O manual sought in PDF format. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE48903.6090201@telus.net> Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 5/28/11 9:08 AM, "John Robertson" wrote: > > >> Geoffrey Reed wrote: >> >>> Looking for the Calibration/Service manual for the Unipak 2B unit, it has >>> schematics in it and the calibration procedures. Since some of the adapters >>> are unobtanium, with the service/cal manual it should be possible to reverse >>> engineer some of the adapters :) >>> >>> >>> >> There is a Data I/O mail list with support files... >> >> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Data_IO_EPROM/ >> >> John :-#)# >> >> > I'm on that list, but only found the operation manual. > > > > Calibration info appears in manual #981-0001-001 REV A of the Unipak 2 from Sept 84, Section 4 - Maintenance/Troubleshooting/Calibration. Need a copy emailed? Its 7mb in size...pulled from my TTL Data I/O (section down for the moment) archive site, mirrors up soon. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From mikeglw at netplex.net Tue May 31 21:05:13 2011 From: mikeglw at netplex.net (mikeglw) Date: Tue, 31 May 2011 18:05:13 -0800 Subject: Perkin Elmer 7300 Pro System Museum Quality! References: 5.1.1.6.2.20030627081626.0679d860@mail.analog-and-digital-solutions.com Message-ID: <4DE59E59.20109@netplex.net> Hello, I have a Perkin Elmer 7300 and have been looking for the Idris operating system and Basic. If you still have them, I was wondering if you could make copies ( at your price ). Thank You, Michael Glowinski