From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 1 00:25:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 01:25:37 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> References: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE5CD51.9070504@neurotica.com> On 5/31/11 10:21 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > For those of you who have heard about a mythical > SIX BUTTON FRONT PANEL for the BA23, > it does exist and actually works. Umm, yeah...Are these unusual? Half of my BA23s have those six-button panels. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 02:19:37 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 08:19:37 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> References: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE5E809.3080502@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2011 03:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > For those of you who have heard about a mythical > SIX BUTTON FRONT PANEL for the BA23, > it does exist and actually works. Mythical? I've probably seen more BA23s with a 6-button panel than without, and both my BA23s have 6-button panels. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jun 1 04:42:25 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 05:42:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel Message-ID: <8CDEE5758D146B0-1968-146E@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> >>On 01/06/2011 03:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> For those of you who have heard about a mythical >> SIX BUTTON FRONT PANEL for the BA23, >> it does exist and actually works. > Mythical? I've probably seen more BA23s with a 6-button panel than > without, and both my BA23s have 6-button panels. Most of the BA23's I ran into over the years had the plain old (white) 4-button panels, and occasionally the (black) 4-button panels. Some had guards around some of the buttons to prevent accidental fat-fingering. If I needed more than 2 drives, I just soldered resistors onto the back of the 4-button panel. Granted, the extra drives were always write-enabled and ready, but how many people really make their drives read-only? I much prefer the 10-button BA123 chassis anyway. ;-) T From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 09:01:35 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 10:01:35 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE5E809.3080502@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> <4DE5E809.3080502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/06/2011 03:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> >> For those of you who have heard about a mythical >> SIX ?BUTTON ?FRONT ?PANEL for the BA23, >> it does exist and actually works. > > Mythical? ?I've probably seen more BA23s with a 6-button panel than without, > and both my BA23s have 6-button panels. Mine have the 4-button panel, but they were both purchased (by a former employer) as MicroVAX-Is (new, at full price! $10,000, IIRC) One was upgraded to a MicroVAX-II (also full price - $17,000, IIRC - new CPU, new memory, new disk (RD51->RD53, IIRC), new disk controller (RQDX1->RQDX3), new TQK50 and external TK50 tape drive, and the most expensive part, a new VMS license). Both had one hard disk and one RX50 so they didn't need the 6-button panel. Much later, each BA23 got the new, less-likely-to-catch-on-fire power harness (one was in the process of failure to the point of emitting unpleasant plastic odors). I remember _trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they didn't work when returned to their former homes. -ethan From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jun 1 10:12:28 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 11:12:28 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> References: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE656DC.8070201@verizon.net> On 05/31/2011 10:21 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > For those of you who have heard about a mythical > SIX BUTTON FRONT PANEL for the BA23, I have several. They were no so unusual. Mine allows me a pair of hard disks (half height) and a floppy in my pedestal 11/53. the MVII in Ba23 also has it only the disks are rd54 and half height 40mb (swap) plus RX33 (uses a RQDX3). > it does exist and actually works. NOTE that the > first hard disk drive MUST be set to DS3 and the > second hard disk drive MUST be set to DS4. > You will almost certainly destroy the format for > BOTH hard drives if they are both set the same. > Yep. Has to be oddly jumpered. Allison > A SIX button front panel for a BA23 had been sitting > on my bench of spare parts for more than a decade. > I finally had an opportunity to use it yesterday for the > first time to make a backup copy of an RD51 to a > second RD51 Both READ ONLY buttons operate > independently and can be turned off and on at any > time - as expected, but now verified. > > There is a simple work around which requires a bit > of soldering to a short piece of 10 pin cable, but then > the READ ONLY button can't be used very well > and is not independent for both drives. I imagine that > Tony could add a bit more with a switch that would > work much better. If you don't ever use the READ > ONLY button, then the simple work around will > be sufficient. > > While I first backed up the RD51 to a TK25 before > I installed the SIX button front panel, being able to > directly copy (and compare) the two hard disk drives > (especially an RD51 which takes under 3 minutes) > is much more convenient. > > This is just to let anyone who is interested that if you > are using an RQDXn with a BA23, you actually are > able to place two hard drives in the same box. > > If I am also using the RX50, then I usually run extra > long cables out the front of the BA23 and keep the > RX50 outside the BA23. If the BA23 backplane is > full and you are also using a TK70, then I put both > the RX50 and the TK70 inside the BA23 and use > the extra long cables to the hard disk drives PLUS > I use a spare PC power supply for the hard disk > drives so that I don't overload the BA23 power supply. > > NOTE that my experiments using a BA123 and ESDI > Hitachi hard drives which tend to run rather hot and > also require their own fans (when I used an external > PC power supply), I found that the TK70 MUST use > the internal power supply from the BA123. I imagine > that the same would apply to the BA23 box for both > a TK50 and a TK70. > > Yes, I occasionally do work with real DEC hardware. > > Jerome Fine > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 1 11:30:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 12:30:15 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <8CDEE5758D146B0-1968-146E@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDEE5758D146B0-1968-146E@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DE66917.4060609@neurotica.com> On 6/1/11 5:42 AM, Tim Thompson wrote: > If I needed more than 2 drives, I just soldered resistors > onto the back of the 4-button panel. Granted, the extra drives > were always write-enabled and ready, but how many people > really make their drives read-only? I use that functionality when copying drives, just for the peace of mind. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 12:27:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 18:27:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at May 31, 11 10:21:14 pm Message-ID: > There is a simple work around which requires a bit > of soldering to a short piece of 10 pin cable, but then > the READ ONLY button can't be used very well > and is not independent for both drives. I imagine that > Tony could add a bit more with a switch that would > work much better. If you don't ever use the READ > ONLY button, then the simple work around will > be sufficient. Do I hear my name being taken in vain :-) I've not looked into the documentation for the BA23 and associated bits, but I cna';t believe it's beyond me to work it out :-). Do scheamtics of the frontpanel boards exist anywhere, for example? Normally when doing a modification like htis, the part that takes the time (and maybe skill) is finding a suitable switch that will fit the panel and look right alongside the otehrs. And if you can't get such a part modifying the panel to take the closest match you can find. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 1 13:36:58 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 19:36:58 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > I've not looked into the documentation for the BA23 and > associated bits, > but I cna';t believe it's beyond me to work it out :-). Do scheamtics > of the frontpanel boards exist anywhere, for example? I did mod a panel once back when I was in DECpark. I asked around and someone in TSC had the schematic, so it was pretty easy to do. I almost certainly have that schematic somewhere so it undoubtedly exists; the question is could I find it before anyone manages to reverse engineer the (fairly simple) schematics :-) Incidentally, when I was emailed the TIFF file I naturally asked if there was a publically accessible repository. I was told that they'd outsourced the scanning to someone and basically had to pay each time they wanted to use one. Seemed really odd to me. Still, it does imply a large stash of scans lying around somewhere ... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 13:52:22 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 19:52:22 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: References: <4DE5A21A.6050109@compsys.to> <4DE5E809.3080502@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DE68A66.7070707@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2011 15:01, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I remember _trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick > disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for > me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they > didn't work when returned to their former homes. You probably didn't set the drive select jumpers correctly. If anyone is interested, the circuit for the switches is very simple. When I made up a distribution card to use with an external drive box (in lieu of an M9058) I drew it out and made some PCBs. You can find the relevant schematics, descriptions, and some PCB layouts at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/ Specifically, the switches schematic is at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/RQDX/RQDXn_LEDs_switches.pdf -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 1 14:02:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 20:02:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 1, 11 07:36:58 pm Message-ID: > > but I cna';t believe it's beyond me to work it out :-). Do scheamtics > > of the frontpanel boards exist anywhere, for example? > > I did mod a panel once back when I was in DECpark. I asked around > and someone in TSC had the schematic, so it was pretty easy to do. > I almost certainly have that schematic somewhere so it undoubtedly > exists; the question is could I find it before anyone manages to > reverse engineer the (fairly simple) schematics :-) >From what I rememebr the switch PCB doesn't have much on it, and I doubt it would tax me too much to trace out a schematic. It must be easier than some of the things I've done, for example... Actually, I suspect it's one of those units where it's quicker to trace out a schematic than try to find out. [I realised years ago that for many things it was quicker nd less stressful to reverse-engineer schematics than to try to convice the manufacturers to sell me a service manual] Undrotuantely the only BA23 I own (which contains a MicroVAX II GPX I think) is hinding behind a MINC-23, a PERQ1 and assoreted smaller machiens. Otherwise I'd regard producing schematic as a pleastant diversion for half an hour or so... -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 1 18:20:05 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 00:20:05 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE6C925.2050009@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2011 20:02, Tony Duell wrote: > From what I rememebr the switch PCB doesn't have much on it, and I doubt > it would tax me too much to trace out a schematic. It must be easier > than some of the things I've done, for example... > > Actually, I suspect it's one of those units where it's quicker to trace > out a schematic than try to find out. I could email you the PDF file or the PostScript file it was generated from, if you like. They're quite small (5k PDF, 26k PS). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 22:02:37 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 22:02:37 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/785 Message-ID: The owner of the 785 and I could not connect last weekend. I had an epidural earlier, and will be allowed to drive tomorrow, and hopefully walk better. The plan is now to see it this weekend, and I hope to take pics and a fairly accurate inventory. I will try to post same day. Paul From ragooman at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 22:58:11 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 23:58:11 -0400 Subject: Have some Core memory made by Fabri-Tek - trying to find what system this came from. Message-ID: I have some Core memory from a guy who worked at Four Phase. They're made by Fabri-Tek and he remembers these being used in some IBM system - the best he can remember. The really cool thing about this is that it's assembled in a way where it folds up. I have some pics at the links below. I'm hoping somebody might know what system this came from. I also have closeup pics of the board, serial, and part numbers too. Then maybe I can find a manual for this. With some luck and some hacking, I can then wire an interface to this for my homebrew PDP-8. http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/5788472143/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/5788471265/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/5789025174/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/5788469637/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/5788469117/in/photostream http://www.flickr.com/photos/ragooman/5789023250/in/photostream =Dan From spedraja at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 06:00:15 2011 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 13:00:15 +0200 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? Message-ID: ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main newspaper in Spain. What's about this ? -- Saludos - Greetings - Freundliche Gr??e - Salutations Sergio http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja http://www.quora.com/Sergio-Pedraja https://www.xing.com/profile/Sergio_Pedraja ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que esta vi?ndolo todo From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jun 1 12:23:29 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 01 Jun 2011 10:23:29 -0700 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> On 2011-06-01 10.00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> > On 01/06/2011 03:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >> >>> >> For those of you who have heard about a mythical >>> >> SIX ?BUTTON ?FRONT ?PANEL for the BA23, >>> >> it does exist and actually works. >> > >> > Mythical? ?I've probably seen more BA23s with a 6-button panel than without, >> > and both my BA23s have 6-button panels. Yeah. Nothing mythical about the 6-button panel. Glad to see that I'm not the only one thinking so. > I remember_trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick > disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for > me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they > didn't work when returned to their former homes. As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can *not* be used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article about this not working. You need the external distribution board for the RQDX3 to use two drives. If you use the BA23 backplane distribution panel with two harddisk drives, you have a high chance of corrupting both disks. (If I remember right, the write gate signal somehow goes to both disks, no matter what, which cause the disk to possibly start writing when the disk is seeking, for example. Very bad.) The BA23 backplane distribution should only be used for one harddisk, and possibly one floppy. Johnny From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Jun 1 13:38:09 2011 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 20:38:09 +0200 Subject: search for SDI and SMD disks (in europe) Message-ID: Hello. To restore a couple of old machines I'm searching for fixed and/or removable disks. For one machine (a DG Nova 4 upgraded to MV7800) I would need an SMD disk or cartridge drive. For the other machine (a DEC PDP11), I need an SDI disk unit. If anybody has some to sell a reasonable price, please let me know. Thanks in advance Andrea From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 2 00:38:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 01:38:41 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE721E1.7040806@neurotica.com> On 6/1/11 7:00 AM, SPC wrote: > ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main > newspaper in Spain. > > What's about this ? Bunk. Looks fine from here, got posts as of a minute or two ago.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 2 00:50:25 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 22:50:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: from SPC at "Jun 1, 11 01:00:15 pm" Message-ID: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> > ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main > newspaper in Spain. My newsbots don't seem to have heard the, uh, news. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When cryptography is outlawed, bayl bhgynjf jvyy unir cevinpl. ------------- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 01:08:09 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 23:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> > > ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main > > newspaper in Spain. > My newsbots don't seem to have heard the, uh, news. "El Pais" ("The Country"?) is officially dead from May 20th. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 2 01:09:29 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 07:09:29 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> Message-ID: Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can *not* be > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article > about this > not working. You need the external distribution board for the > RQDX3 to I used several configs in the DEC lab with 2 RD54s in a BA23 for years and never hit a problem. (Mind you, I also had a KDA50 in a BA23, so I'm not saying you should do this at home :-)). If there's a note, I'd like to see it sometime ... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jun 2 01:10:12 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 07:10:12 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> References: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> Message-ID: <8CBFF9039B9748248F385A6DD0551F09@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Two hard drives in a BA23? Provided you don?t want to connect to another BA23 or use a non-DEC disk controller then a brace of DEC SCSI drives and a flat SCSI cable will do it. I think the drive power cables come direct from the PSU. If so, then you can rip out the backplane and card guides. The guides can be used to make storage units for PC cards. You can use the back plane to make a real 'open' system i.e. one you can get at the pc cards. ? Rod Smallwood (DEC 1975 -1985) ? ????? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny Billquist Sent: 01 June 2011 18:23 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel On 2011-06-01 10.00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 3:19 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> > On 01/06/2011 03:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>> >> >>> >> For those of you who have heard about a mythical >>> >> SIX ?BUTTON ?FRONT ?PANEL for the BA23, >>> >> it does exist and actually works. >> > >> > Mythical? ?I've probably seen more BA23s with a 6-button panel than without, >> > and both my BA23s have 6-button panels. Yeah. Nothing mythical about the 6-button panel. Glad to see that I'm not the only one thinking so. > I remember_trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick > disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for > me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they > didn't work when returned to their former homes. As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can *not* be used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article about this not working. You need the external distribution board for the RQDX3 to use two drives. If you use the BA23 backplane distribution panel with two harddisk drives, you have a high chance of corrupting both disks. (If I remember right, the write gate signal somehow goes to both disks, no matter what, which cause the disk to possibly start writing when the disk is seeking, for example. Very bad.) The BA23 backplane distribution should only be used for one harddisk, and possibly one floppy. Johnny From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jun 2 01:13:29 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 23:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Have some Core memory made by Fabri-Tek - trying to find what system this came from. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <927889.48160.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> This looks like the memory in the Honeywell H316. --Bill From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 2 01:25:31 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 1 Jun 2011 23:25:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, SPC wrote: > ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main > newspaper in Spain. > > What's about this ? Looks just fine to me. Although I rather miss the traffic that used to show up in misc.forsale.computers.workstation. I got a maxed-out Sun IPX there once upon a time. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jun 2 01:30:39 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:30:39 +0200 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: 2011/6/2 Fred Cisin > > > ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main > > > newspaper in Spain. > > My newsbots don't seem to have heard the, uh, news. > > "El Pais" ("The Country"?) is officially dead from May 20th. > > :-) Well, I translate the notice as it appears in the web version of this newspaper: "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service they provide." But I suspect that something is wrong with this, because I can't locate it searching inside 'El Pais' website. However, it appears in the RSS version. Greetings Sergio From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 2 02:08:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 00:08:28 -0700 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com>, <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2011 at 8:30, SPC wrote: > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 > May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host > that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups > formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, > RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service > they provide." Didn't Duke shut down their news server May 20 of *last year*? How many members of the student body even knew in 2010 that Duke maintained an active news server? --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 2 02:20:11 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 08:20:11 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> References: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4DE739AB.8010802@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/06/2011 18:23, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Yeah. Nothing mythical about the 6-button panel. Glad to see that I'm > not the only one thinking so. > >> I remember_trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick >> disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for >> me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they >> didn't work when returned to their former homes. > > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can *not* be > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article about this > not working. You need the external distribution board for the RQDX3 to > use two drives. If you use the BA23 backplane distribution panel with > two harddisk drives, you have a high chance of corrupting both disks. > (If I remember right, the write gate signal somehow goes to both disks, > no matter what, which cause the disk to possibly start writing when the > disk is seeking, for example. Very bad.) Although some manuals do mention that you should only use one hard drive in a BA23 (eg the Maintenance Manual) I've seen several systems -- including mine -- do so with no problem. I've never seen a problem with Write Gate, nor would I expect to. Like all other ST412-type interfaces, the M9058 distribution card has the same write gate signal wired to all the 34-pin HDD connectors in parallel. In fact the /only/ control signals not wired strictly in parallel on those connectors are some of the drive selects. What I do know is that the docs say you must draw no more than 7A from the 12V supply in a BA23, and one RD51 takes 4.5A. So 2 x RD51 would overload it. I believe that's the only restriction, because putting a second RD5x in a BA23C expansion box, connected via an RQDXE, was supported -- and AFAIR the RQDXE doesn't do anything clever with the control or status signals. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 03:13:24 2011 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 09:13:24 +0100 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2 June 2011 08:08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2011 at 8:30, SPC wrote: > >> "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 >> May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host >> that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups >> formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, >> RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service >> they provide." > > Didn't Duke shut down their news server May 20 of *last year*? It was certainly last year sometime, but since I'm still getting a lot of posts via giganews I assume it's not affected anything :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 2 07:31:56 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 05:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jun 2, 11 00:08:28 am" Message-ID: <201106021231.p52CVuNW017398@floodgap.com> > > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 > > May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host > > that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups > > formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, > > RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service > > they provide." > > Didn't Duke shut down their news server May 20 of *last year*? I believe so. Obviously no one at that august news institution gets that Usenet is decentralized by design. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------ From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 07:33:11 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:33:11 -0400 Subject: Have some Core memory made by Fabri-Tek - trying to find what system this came from. In-Reply-To: <927889.48160.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <927889.48160.qm@web82605.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 2:13 AM, William Maddox wrote: > This looks like the memory in the Honeywell H316. > > ok, I'll start looking there. thanks =Dan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 2 07:35:34 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 05:35:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Jun 2011, SPC wrote: > ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main > newspaper in Spain. > > What's about this ? It's utter nonsense. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 2 07:37:48 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 05:37:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, SPC wrote: > 2011/6/2 Fred Cisin > >>>> ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main >>>> newspaper in Spain. >>> My newsbots don't seem to have heard the, uh, news. >> >> "El Pais" ("The Country"?) is officially dead from May 20th. >> >> > :-) > > Well, I translate the notice as it appears in the web version of this > newspaper: > > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 May, Duke > University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host that kept it > alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups formally signed death > . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, RSS, and especially Facebook > and Twitter have sustituidoel service they provide." > > But I suspect that something is wrong with this, because I can't locate it > searching inside 'El Pais' website. However, it appears in the RSS version. > All that means is "El Pais" can't fact-check their way out of a wet paper bag. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jun 2 09:50:24 2011 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 16:50:24 +0200 Subject: search for SDI and SMD disks (in europe) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE7A330.6030301@e-bbes.com> where in europe? On 2011-06-01 20:38, shadoooo wrote: > Hello. > To restore a couple of old machines I'm searching for fixed and/or > removable disks. > For one machine (a DG Nova 4 upgraded to MV7800) I would need an SMD > disk or cartridge drive. > For the other machine (a DEC PDP11), I need an SDI disk unit. > If anybody has some to sell a reasonable price, please let me know. > Thanks in advance > Andrea > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 2 09:53:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 10:53:49 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE7A3FD.4030807@neurotica.com> On 6/2/11 2:25 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main >> newspaper in Spain. >> >> What's about this ? > > Looks just fine to me. Although I rather miss the traffic that used to > show up in misc.forsale.computers.workstation. I got a maxed-out Sun IPX > there once upon a time. eBay has pretty much killed that, but there's heavy activity in the technical groups. Far more than I'd have expected, actually. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 2 09:55:53 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 10:55:53 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DE7A479.90206@neurotica.com> On 6/2/11 2:30 AM, SPC wrote: > Well, I translate the notice as it appears in the web version of this > newspaper: > > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 May, Duke > University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host that kept it > alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups formally signed death > . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, RSS, and especially Facebook > and Twitter have sustituidoel service they provide." My news server receives, on average, 34,000 messages per day. I get a full feed EXCEPT the binaries groups, which account for most of the traffic on Usenet. That's hardly "vegetative". Usenet, much to my utter shock and delight, is still very much alive. > But I suspect that something is wrong with this, because I can't locate it > searching inside 'El Pais' website. However, it appears in the RSS version. What's wrong is that they're clueless. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 2 10:26:20 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 08:26:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE7A3FD.4030807@neurotica.com> References: <4DE7A3FD.4030807@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 2 Jun 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/2/11 2:25 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main >>> newspaper in Spain. >>> >>> What's about this ? >> >> Looks just fine to me. Although I rather miss the traffic that used to >> show up in misc.forsale.computers.workstation. I got a maxed-out Sun IPX >> there once upon a time. > > eBay has pretty much killed that, but there's heavy activity in the > technical groups. Far more than I'd have expected, actually. > Both comp.lang.c and comp.lang.python have a ton of non-spam traffic. (I was going to say "good", but after reading some of it...well....) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jun 2 13:01:12 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:01:12 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE7B46B.5070308@softjar.se> References: <4DE7B46B.5070308@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4DE7CFE8.2020707@verizon.net> Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 2011-06-02 07.56, wrote: >> Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: >>> > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can*not* be >>> > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article >>> > about this >>> > not working. You need the external distribution board for the >>> > RQDX3 to >> I used several configs in the DEC lab with 2 RD54s in a BA23 for years >> and never hit a problem. (Mind you, I also had a KDA50 in a BA23, so >> I'm not saying you should do this at home :-)). > > It's not an issue with two drives, per se, but an issue with the built > in distribution panel. > Correct to a point. The base panel is wired a lot like the twisted floppy cable of PCs. It was intended to have a hard disk and a floppy and the device addresses are plug assigned. If you put in two hard disks with standard jumpers they both try to talk at the same time as the same device... bad! However, if the drive address is jumperd correctly it works fine however the correct jumpers are not given. I derived it by tracing wires. >> If there's a note, I'd like to see it sometime ... > > I'll try to locate it. I know I have it somewhere in paper form, but > hopefully it's been scanned somewhere on bitsavers, since all my > papers are far from me. > > On 2011-06-02 07.56, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > >> Two hard drives in a BA23? > > Like I said above. It's not the question of two drives in the BA23 as > such. It is the built-in distribution panel that is the problem. > >> Provided you don?t want to connect to another BA23 or use a non-DEC disk >> controller then a brace of DEC SCSI drives and a flat SCSI cable will >> do it. > > SCSI disks have even less to do with it. :-) > Correct the cable from the RQDX1/2/3 is 50wice and looks like the same used for old school SCSI but it's not. It's all the address and control lines from the RQDXn for all possible devices (up to 4 MFM disks or 3 and 1 RX50). The back plane distribution board of the BA23 (and a different one in the BA123) breaks this out to the cable pairs used for MFM or the single 34 wide for RX50 or RX33. >> I think the drive power cables come direct from the PSU. If so, then >> you can >> rip out the backplane and card guides. The guides can be used to make >> storage units for PC cards. You can use the back plane to make a real >> 'open' >> system i.e. one you can get at the pc cards. > > Yeah, the power cables comes from the PSU, and yes, there was an issue > with those on some BA23. But that is something else. And just using > the box as a shelf is obviously also not a problem. > All that was in the 5V lines were severl in parallel and the early cable the wires were unequal length and made for current hogging at heavy bus loads. The fixed cable had all the leads of equal length to avoid this. If the older cable is used for light bus load there are no issues but watch for heating ( or overheating) of the pins on the shorter wires. > On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 08:20:11 +0100 Pete Turnbull > wrote: > > > On 01/06/2011 18:23, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > > > >> >> I remember_trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for > quick > > >> >> disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't > work for > > >> >> me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point > that they > > >> >> didn't work when returned to their former homes. > > > > > > > > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can > *not* be > > > > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article > about this > > > > not working. You need the external distribution board for the > RQDX3 to > > > > use two drives. If you use the BA23 backplane distribution panel > with > > > > two harddisk drives, you have a high chance of corrupting both > disks. > > > > (If I remember right, the write gate signal somehow goes to both > disks, > > > > no matter what, which cause the disk to possibly start writing > when the > > > > disk is seeking, for example. Very bad.) > > Although some manuals do mention that you should only use one hard > drive > > in a BA23 (eg the Maintenance Manual) I've seen several systems -- > > including mine -- do so with no problem. I've never seen a problem > with > > Write Gate, nor would I expect to. Like all other ST412-type > > interfaces, the M9058 distribution card has the same write gate signal > > wired to all the 34-pin HDD connectors in parallel. In fact the /only/ > > control signals not wired strictly in parallel on those connectors are > > some of the drive selects. > > The M9058 is the RQDXE. Don't anyone ever read what I write, or am I > really that bad at expressing myself? I wrote "the BA23 backplane > distribution panel". That is *not* the RQDXE. > > With the RQDXE it works just fine. > > > What I do know is that the docs say you must draw no more than 7A from > > the 12V supply in a BA23, and one RD51 takes 4.5A. So 2 x RD51 would > > overload it. I believe that's the only restriction, because putting a > > second RD5x in a BA23C expansion box, connected via an RQDXE, was > > supported -- and AFAIR the RQDXE doesn't do anything clever with the > control or status signals. > There is enough reserve on the 12V line that it works well. Keep in mind DEC only qualified certain configurations. If you not using all the 12V on the bus then you have excess for the RDs. I've found that this was not an issue and heat from the drives more of a concern (two RD54s!) Keep in mind an allowed configuation was RD54 and TK50 for MVII systems. > Yes, the power supply is a separate issue. And yes, there is no issue > putting two drives in the same BA23 if you use a RQDXE. However, if > you plug in two drives using the built-in backplane distribution > panel, you will have a disk crash, which I unfortunately have first > hand experience of having to clean up after. The formatting of one, or > both drives, will be destroyed, and you will need to reformat the > drive to be able to use it again, if reformatting is possible. I never > tried that, as I wanted to get as much data as possible off the two > drives, and afterwards, the machine got SCSI drives instead of the RD > drives, as you might as well upgrade when you were working on it. Initially when trying to put two drives in I had that problem. OOps! Fortunately I had a VS2000 to reformat rather than boot XXDP on the 11/23+ reformat the drives. Its non-distructive in that MFM drives can be low level formatted with out issue and some like the RD32 seemed to need it frequently! The reason for needing to reformat is that when you turn on write is important and is timed off the data and for two drives in parallel (same device address) they will never be in data sync (other than by accident). Once I figured out the address needed for the second drive and then reformatted it was fine that way. Allison > > Johnny > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 2 13:05:50 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 19:05:50 +0100 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE7A479.90206@neurotica.com> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> <4DE7A479.90206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE7D0FE.1080402@philpem.me.uk> On 02/06/11 15:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > My news server receives, on average, 34,000 messages per day. I get a > full feed EXCEPT the binaries groups, which account for most of the > traffic on Usenet. [...] > Usenet, much to my utter shock and delight, is still very much alive. Yes, but how many of those 34k messages are spam messages of some description? (if someone can point me to a decent spam filter or Scorefile for Pan, I'd be most grateful... Usenet suffers greatly from its abysmally poor signal-to-noise ratio...) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 2 13:09:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 14:09:20 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE7D0FE.1080402@philpem.me.uk> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> <4DE7A479.90206@neurotica.com> <4DE7D0FE.1080402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DE7D1D0.4020207@neurotica.com> On 6/2/11 2:05 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> My news server receives, on average, 34,000 messages per day. I get a >> full feed EXCEPT the binaries groups, which account for most of the >> traffic on Usenet. > [...] > > Usenet, much to my utter shock and delight, is still very much alive. > > Yes, but how many of those 34k messages are spam messages of some > description? Very few in the groups that I read, with the notable exception of comp.lang.fortran. It seems the spammers don't consider Usenet to be profitable anymore. This shouldn't be surprising, as the people who use Usenet are likely to be smart, and smart people rarely, if ever, respond to spam with dollars. > (if someone can point me to a decent spam filter or Scorefile for Pan, > I'd be most grateful... Usenet suffers greatly from its abysmally poor > signal-to-noise ratio...) It does, in many groups, but spam isn't as much a percentage of that noise as it used to be. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jun 2 17:44:09 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 18:44:09 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE721E1.7040806@neurotica.com> References: <4DE721E1.7040806@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE81239.50606@compsys.to> >Dave McGuire wrote: > >On 6/1/11 7:00 AM, SPC wrote: > >> ... or at least is what I've read this morning in 'El Pais', the main >> newspaper in Spain. >> >> What's about this ? > > Bunk. Looks fine from here, got posts as of a minute or two ago.. While I monitor only 5 Newsgroups, I have seen nothing to indicate that Usenet is inactive, let alone dead. The 4 Newsgroups of interest are: alt.sys.pdp11 comp.sys.dec comp.sys.dec.micro vmsnet.pdp-11 The third group is rarely active, but the other three have been surprisingly VERY active of late along with one other that I doubt is of interest to most of the list. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jun 2 18:35:54 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 19:35:54 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <8CDEE5758D146B0-1968-146E@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDEE5758D146B0-1968-146E@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DE81E5A.3070904@compsys.to> >Tim Thompson wrote: >>>On 01/06/2011 03:21, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >>>For those of you who have heard about a mythical >>>SIX BUTTON FRONT PANEL for the BA23, >>>it does exist and actually works. >>> >>Mythical? I've probably seen more BA23s with a 6-button panel than >>without, and both my BA23s have 6-button panels. >> >Most of the BA23's I ran into over the years had the >plain old (white) 4-button panels, and occasionally >the (black) 4-button panels. Some had guards around >some of the buttons to prevent accidental fat-fingering. > > Good idea to use a guard. For the work I do on RT-11, I normally turn off the READ ONLY button when I specifically want to change a file on the hard drive. RT-11 itself is quite happy to run with even the system drive in READ ONLY mode. I was not aware that the 6 button panel was so wide spread. While I have probably seen at least a few dozen BA23 boxes (actually not that many I admit), none had a 6 button panel. When I needed to copy an RD51 to a second RD51 drive, avoiding a copy to tape in the middle saved 90% of the time. As Allison confirmed, drive 0 MUST be DS3 and drive 1 MUST be DS4. The first time that a copy was attempted from DU0: to DU1:, both were set at DS3 and the format was lost from both drives. >If I needed more than 2 drives, I just soldered resistors >onto the back of the 4-button panel. Granted, the extra drives >were always write-enabled and ready, but how many people >really make their drives read-only? > > Not many, but I am one. Since the response has been far greater than I expected, I will note my simple extra circuit. I inserted a 10" temporary 10 pin cable into the circuit (to the front panel of the BA23) with a female header at one end and the male header at the other end so that the change was VERY temporary. Within the extra piece of cable, I soldered line 5 to line 1, line 6 to line 2 leaving the portion leading the the front panel on the BA23 hanging (unattached to anything). If I remember correctly, grounding line 5 and line 6 did the same, but after more than 10 years, I am probably wrong and the guess is only that!! I did this over ten years ago without a schematic, so I forget the tests that I did. Since it worked, I assumed that the single switch was able to carry the extra current for at least a reasonable time. If you have the information, can you describe the circuits that were soldered and the size of the resistors? In addition, would Tony (I guess this is twice that I have taken your name in vain - I apologize) be able to suggest the additional circuits needed to add the green and orange LEDs to show the same status that the 6 button front panel for the BA23 shows? As for the extra current on the 12 volt line for the hard drives, it is STRONGLY suggested that when two hard drives are used, an additional PC power supply be used for just the hard drives so that the BA23 power supply is not overloaded. I doubt that this would be a problem if the hard drives are used for less than an hour. But for anything more than an hour, it does not seem to be worth the risk It is also necessary to attach a TK50 / TK70 to the internal power supply. An additional PC power supply does not work, I have never tested with the RX50 except as attached to the internal power supply. If the arrangement is to be permanent, I tend to place the hard drives inside the BA23 and the RX50 / TK70 outside the BA23. The fans inside the BA23 should provide the cooling for the hard drives. However, when I use ESDI hard drives with either a VT103, a Ba23 or a BA123, the hard drives are always attached to an additional PC power supply and separate fans are used for the ESDI hard drives. >I much prefer the 10-button BA123 chassis anyway. ;-) > Likewise, but I believe a BA123 is a bit more cumbersome to carry from one building to another. Otherwise, the back plane is much more accessible. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jun 2 18:42:38 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 19:42:38 -0400 Subject: Is Classiscmp working? Message-ID: <4DE81FEE.8050409@compsys.to> I don't seem to be receiving any posts? Does anyone else have the same problem? Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jun 2 20:29:01 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:29:01 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE739AB.8010802@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> <4DE739AB.8010802@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DE838DD.5060806@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > What I do know is that the docs say you must draw no more than 7A from > the 12V supply in a BA23, and one RD51 takes 4.5A. So 2 x RD51 would > overload it. I believe that's the only restriction, because putting a > second RD5x in a BA23C expansion box, connected via an RQDXE, was > supported -- and AFAIR the RQDXE doesn't do anything clever with the > control or status signals. I checked the drive specs in the BA23 manual. I don't know if the values are correct, however, the manual lists 2.5 Amp on the 12 volt. However, in any case, from my point of view, it is far better to use an additional PC power supply (for just the hard drives) when there are two hard drives used in a BA23 box. This take the load off the internal power supply. And if you want to use an RX50 and a TK70 as well, then you would almost certainly exceed the 7 Amp available on the 12 volt internal power supply. As I mentioned, always use the internal power supply for the TK50 / TK70. Whereas I leave the RX50 outside the BA23 box if there is no TK70, with a TK70 I usually place the RX50 and TK70 inside the BA23 box and the 2 hard drives outside the BA23 box. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Thu Jun 2 20:39:45 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:39:45 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> References: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4DE83B61.70900@compsys.to> >Johnny Billquist wrote: > Yeah. Nothing mythical about the 6-button panel. Glad to see that I'm > not the only one thinking so. The 6 button front panel on the BA23 box is specifically for when there are 2 MFM RD5n / RD3n hard drives. For a system using all DEC hardware in an approved configuration, the 1/2 height MFM RD3n hard drives can be stacked so that 2 hard drives will fit in one bay. > >> I remember_trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick >> disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for >> me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they >> didn't work when returned to their former homes. > > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can *not* be > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article about > this not working. You need the external distribution board for the > RQDX3 to use two drives. If you use the BA23 backplane distribution > panel with two harddisk drives, you have a high chance of corrupting > both disks. > (If I remember right, the write gate signal somehow goes to both > disks, no matter what, which cause the disk to possibly start writing > when the disk is seeking, for example. Very bad.) As both Allison and I mentioned, you must use DS3 for drive 0 and DS4 for drive 1 along with the 6 button BA23 front panel or equivalent wiring. I remember VERY well when I forgot to use DS4 on the second drive (used DS3 on both) and lost the format on both drives. > The BA23 backplane distribution should only be used for one harddisk, > and possibly one floppy. The BA23 box which includes an RD distribution panel supports two hard drives and two floppy drives. The RX50 is a dual drive in a single enclosure and counts as 2 floppy drives. While support for 2 floppy drives is standard, support for 2 hard drives requires a 6 button BA23 front panel. Jerome Fine From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jun 2 14:41:34 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 14:41:34 -0500 Subject: SMS FWT0100 dual 8" floppy for PDP or LSI-11 Message-ID: <20110602194134.GD16345@n0jcf.net> I'm investigating some SMS (Scientific Micro Systems) dual 8" floppy units that were built for PDP- and LSI-11 systems. They are model number FWT0100 and, similar to an RX02, have a "formatter" board inside the box with the floppy drives. Then there is a 40-pin ribbon cable that goes to a host controller in the PDP or LSI which can be either a Unibus or a QBus interface. I am wondering if anyone knows if the box+formatter is electrically and protocol compatible with the real RX02... such that you could connect the box to an RX11 or RX211 controller if you do not have the actual SMS host adapter? The documentation for the OEM version of the SMS box (which is out on Bitsavers) talks about the unit being interface and protocol compatible with the RX02 but it is not clear if they are talking about the complete system including their controller in the host or if they are meaning that the interface to the formatter is compatible. The thing has two modes... normal and enhanced and in enhanced mode, there are extra capabilities that the RX02 can not do and I fully expect that you need the SMS controller to operate in that mode... but the normal mode is still a question. I have an RX211 and no real RX02 drives and I now also have one of these SMS boxes so I'm trying to do a little investigation of their compatibility before I just plug them together and see what happens. The RX211 end is pretty well documented. The SMS end... with details of the formatter board... not so much. There is also a FWT1100 version of the SMS box which has a single 8" floppy and an 8" Winchester in it. These work with the same SMS host controller but then for sure run in enhanced mode in order to support the Winchester capabilities. Does anyone have more info or experience with the SMS dual 8" floppy boxes? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jun 2 22:59:58 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 22:59:58 -0500 Subject: Is Classiscmp working? In-Reply-To: <4DE81FEE.8050409@compsys.to> References: <4DE81FEE.8050409@compsys.to> Message-ID: check your settings perhaps u got it set up to only get daily email list of the msgs sent out On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 6:42 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I don't seem to be receiving any posts? > > Does anyone else have the same problem? > > Jerome Fine > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 19:57:26 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 17:57:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? Message-ID: <20110602175647.E63468@shell.lmi.net> > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 > May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host > that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups > formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, > RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service > they provide." "precursor to the internet"????? If Cern were to shut down their server, would WWW die? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 2 15:25:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 2 Jun 2011 13:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110602132231.E56985@shell.lmi.net> > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 > May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host > that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups > formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, > RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service > they provide." "precursor to the internet"????? If Cern were to shut down their server, would WWW die? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 2 23:37:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 21:37:06 -0700 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <20110602132231.E56985@shell.lmi.net> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com>, , <20110602132231.E56985@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DE80282.31824.31D0867@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2011 at 13:25, Fred Cisin wrote: > > "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 > > May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server > > host that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion > > groups formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, > > but mail, RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel > > service they provide." I checked...DukeToday, May 17, 2010 edition: "On May 20, Duke will shut down its Usenet server, which provides access to a worldwide electronic discussion network of newsgroups started in 1979 by two Duke graduate students, Tom Truscott and Jim Ellis." http://today.duke.edu/2010/05/usenet.html "Hoy, las noticias de ayer." (I hope my rusty Spanish doesn't read like Peggy Hill's). --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 2 16:28:27 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 22:28:27 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE7CFE8.2020707@verizon.net> References: <4DE7B46B.5070308@softjar.se> <4DE7CFE8.2020707@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DE8007B.3030800@dunnington.plus.com> For some reason I've not seen the emails reference below directly from the list; this is from Allison's followup, so I hope I've got the attributions correct... >> On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 08:20:11 +0100 Pete Turnbull >> wrote: >> > Although some manuals do mention that you should only use one hard >> drive >> > in a BA23 (eg the Maintenance Manual) I've seen several systems -- >> > including mine -- do so with no problem. I've never seen a problem >> with >> > Write Gate, nor would I expect to. Like all other ST412-type >> > interfaces, the M9058 distribution card has the same write gate signal >> > wired to all the 34-pin HDD connectors in parallel. In fact the /only/ >> > control signals not wired strictly in parallel on those connectors are >> > some of the drive selects. >> >> The M9058 is the RQDXE. Don't anyone ever read what I write, or am I >> really that bad at expressing myself? I wrote "the BA23 backplane >> distribution panel". That is *not* the RQDXE. I do know, the BA23 backplane panel is not an RQDXE :-) I also know that, no, M9058 is NOT an RQDXE. RQDXE is M7513 (and the smaller and even more primitive RQDXE-1 is M9512). M9058 is the distribution board from the BA123, and I referenced it to point out that the drive control signals are all bussed to all the drives, ie all the HDD ports, on a BA123 -- which is a device that does officially and always has supported multiple HDDs. Proving any problem is not to do with signals going to several drives at the same time. I did read what you wrote -- I understood you to be saying that the problem might be a result of Write Gate going to both drives and I was pointing out that that wouldn't matter. At least, not unless both drives are selected at the same time, which will only happen if the drive select jumpers are misconfigured to select both at the same time, in which case lots of things will go wrong. >> Yes, the power supply is a separate issue. And yes, there is no issue >> putting two drives in the same BA23 if you use a RQDXE. However, if >> you plug in two drives using the built-in backplane distribution >> panel, you will have a disk crash, which I unfortunately have first >> hand experience of having to clean up after. Well, then, two of my machines must be continually crashing silently and miraculously recovering for the last two decades :-) Sorry, but I have physical proof that two drives in a BA23 with no extras (like RQDXE or other interface extensions) can work perfectly well. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 2 14:24:11 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 20:24:11 +0100 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE7D1D0.4020207@neurotica.com> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> <4DE7A479.90206@neurotica.com> <4DE7D0FE.1080402@philpem.me.uk> <4DE7D1D0.4020207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DE7E35B.80103@philpem.me.uk> On 02/06/11 19:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > Very few in the groups that I read, with the notable exception of > comp.lang.fortran. It seems the spammers don't consider Usenet to be > profitable anymore. comp.arch.fpga has been slammed into near oblivion for a while. For extra grins, most of the sci.electronics tree is basically unreadable for all the spam... :( Maybe it's just my Astraweb feed... near-100% completion on binaries, but spammed to hell... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 2 19:09:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 20:09:10 -0400 Subject: seeking PC-DOS 2.0 Message-ID: <4DE82626.2020206@neurotica.com> Hey folks. I'm looking for floppy images (or actual floppies) of PC-DOS v2.0. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 3 00:11:47 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 00:11:47 -0500 Subject: seeking PC-DOS 2.0 In-Reply-To: <4DE82626.2020206@neurotica.com> References: <4DE82626.2020206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: bitsavers? On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Hey folks. I'm looking for floppy images (or actual floppies) of PC-DOS > v2.0. Can anyone point me in the right direction? > > Thanks, > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jun 2 11:03:55 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 02 Jun 2011 09:03:55 -0700 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE7B46B.5070308@softjar.se> On 2011-06-02 07.56, wrote: > Johnny Billquist [bqt at softjar.se] wrote: >> > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can*not* be >> > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article >> > about this >> > not working. You need the external distribution board for the >> > RQDX3 to > I used several configs in the DEC lab with 2 RD54s in a BA23 for years > and never hit a problem. (Mind you, I also had a KDA50 in a BA23, so > I'm not saying you should do this at home :-)). It's not an issue with two drives, per se, but an issue with the built in distribution panel. > If there's a note, I'd like to see it sometime ... I'll try to locate it. I know I have it somewhere in paper form, but hopefully it's been scanned somewhere on bitsavers, since all my papers are far from me. On 2011-06-02 07.56, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Two hard drives in a BA23? Like I said above. It's not the question of two drives in the BA23 as such. It is the built-in distribution panel that is the problem. > Provided you don?t want to connect to another BA23 or use a non-DEC disk > controller then a brace of DEC SCSI drives and a flat SCSI cable will do it. SCSI disks have even less to do with it. :-) > I think the drive power cables come direct from the PSU. If so, then you can > rip out the backplane and card guides. The guides can be used to make > storage units for PC cards. You can use the back plane to make a real 'open' > system i.e. one you can get at the pc cards. Yeah, the power cables comes from the PSU, and yes, there was an issue with those on some BA23. But that is something else. And just using the box as a shelf is obviously also not a problem. On Thu, 02 Jun 2011 08:20:11 +0100 Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/06/2011 18:23, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > >> >> I remember_trying_ to put two hard disks in one machine for quick > >> >> disk-to-disk copies. I have a fuzzy memory that it didn't work for > >> >> me, but I don't remember whacking either drive to the point that they > >> >> didn't work when returned to their former homes. > > > > > > As far as I know, the BA23 backplane distribution panel can *not* be > > > used for two disk drives. I know there is a DEC note/article about this > > > not working. You need the external distribution board for the RQDX3 to > > > use two drives. If you use the BA23 backplane distribution panel with > > > two harddisk drives, you have a high chance of corrupting both disks. > > > (If I remember right, the write gate signal somehow goes to both disks, > > > no matter what, which cause the disk to possibly start writing when the > > > disk is seeking, for example. Very bad.) > Although some manuals do mention that you should only use one hard drive > in a BA23 (eg the Maintenance Manual) I've seen several systems -- > including mine -- do so with no problem. I've never seen a problem with > Write Gate, nor would I expect to. Like all other ST412-type > interfaces, the M9058 distribution card has the same write gate signal > wired to all the 34-pin HDD connectors in parallel. In fact the /only/ > control signals not wired strictly in parallel on those connectors are > some of the drive selects. The M9058 is the RQDXE. Don't anyone ever read what I write, or am I really that bad at expressing myself? I wrote "the BA23 backplane distribution panel". That is *not* the RQDXE. With the RQDXE it works just fine. > What I do know is that the docs say you must draw no more than 7A from > the 12V supply in a BA23, and one RD51 takes 4.5A. So 2 x RD51 would > overload it. I believe that's the only restriction, because putting a > second RD5x in a BA23C expansion box, connected via an RQDXE, was > supported -- and AFAIR the RQDXE doesn't do anything clever with the control or status signals. Yes, the power supply is a separate issue. And yes, there is no issue putting two drives in the same BA23 if you use a RQDXE. However, if you plug in two drives using the built-in backplane distribution panel, you will have a disk crash, which I unfortunately have first hand experience of having to clean up after. The formatting of one, or both drives, will be destroyed, and you will need to reformat the drive to be able to use it again, if reformatting is possible. I never tried that, as I wanted to get as much data as possible off the two drives, and afterwards, the machine got SCSI drives instead of the RD drives, as you might as well upgrade when you were working on it. Johnny From elazzerini at interfree.it Fri Jun 3 16:18:42 2011 From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 23:18:42 +0200 Subject: Ferguson BigBoard I & Microcornucopia Magazine Message-ID: <000001cc2233$d13cc900$73b65b00$@it> Hi at all, this email to remember my website with the hope to can to contact and to maintain alive all possible about and around this (but not only) great old board. For the Bigboard: http://web.tiscali.it/enrico.lazzerini http://www.fergusonbigboard.altervista.org/ For the Magazine: http://enricolazzerini.interfree.it Regards Enrico - Pisa (ITALY) From doug at doughq.com Fri Jun 3 01:04:29 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 16:04:29 +1000 Subject: seeking PC-DOS 2.0 In-Reply-To: References: <4DE82626.2020206@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Surely there copyright... :-) (DUCK) On Fri, Jun 3, 2011 at 3:11 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > bitsavers? > > On Thu, Jun 2, 2011 at 7:09 PM, Dave McGuire > wrote: > > > > > Hey folks. I'm looking for floppy images (or actual floppies) of PC-DOS > > v2.0. Can anyone point me in the right direction? > > > > Thanks, > > -Dave > > > > -- > > Dave McGuire > > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 3 02:13:40 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:13:40 +0100 Subject: Is Classiscmp working? In-Reply-To: <4DE81FEE.8050409@compsys.to> References: <4DE81FEE.8050409@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE889A4.30806@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/06/2011 00:42, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I don't seem to be receiving any posts? > > Does anyone else have the same problem? I seem to have missed a few (eg about 6-button panels from Antonio and Johnny), but I'm obviously getting some (most?). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 3 02:13:49 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 08:13:49 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE838DD.5060806@compsys.to> References: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> <4DE739AB.8010802@dunnington.plus.com> <4DE838DD.5060806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4DE889AD.6010101@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/06/2011 02:29, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> What I do know is that the docs say you must draw no more than 7A from >> the 12V supply in a BA23, and one RD51 takes 4.5A. So 2 x RD51 would >> overload it. I believe that's the only restriction, because putting a >> second RD5x in a BA23C expansion box, connected via an RQDXE, was >> supported -- and AFAIR the RQDXE doesn't do anything clever with the >> control or status signals. > > I checked the drive specs in the BA23 manual. > > I don't know if the values are correct, however, > the manual lists 2.5 Amp on the 12 volt. I got the 4.5A from the microPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide, which happened to be the nearest to hand when I wrote that. It might not be correct; it does seem a lot even for such an old drive. I've just looked hrough some other manuals Incidentally, that Maintenance Guide is the same manual which (on page 8-14) tells how to set the drive select jumpers for DU0: and DU1: in a BA23. Although it also says (on page 5-6) only to install one RD52 in a BA23 :-) > However, in any case, from my point of view, > it is far better to use an additional PC power > supply (for just the hard drives) when there > are two hard drives used in a BA23 box. > This take the load off the internal power supply. I don't bother doing that, but... > And if you want to use an RX50 and a TK70 > as well, then you would almost certainly exceed > the 7 Amp available on the 12 volt internal > power supply. As I mentioned, always use > the internal power supply for the TK50 / TK70. > Whereas I leave the RX50 outside the BA23 > box if there is no TK70, with a TK70 I usually > place the RX50 and TK70 inside the BA23 > box and the 2 hard drives outside the BA23 > box. ...my 11/83 has two RD drives in the BA23 running off the internal supply, and (when I got it) had an external RX50 which had its own PSU. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tiggerlasv at aim.com Fri Jun 3 05:39:18 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 06:39:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel Message-ID: <8CDEFF1A0356945-2330-22E7@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> I've run BA23's with either an RX50 or TK50, and a pair of piggy-backed RD32's. It seemed to work well. I had soldered a pair of 2.2K (?) resistors onto the back of the 4-button panel to force the 2nd drive "ready" and "write enabled" full-time. I may have the details on that particular modification tucked away in my documentation somewhere. I also worked up instructions a while back to construct a ribbon cable to go from an RQDXn controller directly to an RX50 or RX33. I should be able to dig that up as well, if anyone is interested. T From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 09:07:30 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:07:30 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <8CDEFF1A0356945-2330-22E7@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDEFF1A0356945-2330-22E7@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DE8EAA2.70202@compsys.to> >Tim Thompson wrote: >I've run BA23's with either an RX50 or TK50, >and a pair of piggy-backed RD32's. It seemed to work well. > > It is also possible to place the hard disk drives outside the BA23 and use longer cables than normal to connect the drives to the normal distribution points inside the BA23 box. This frees up the 2 drive bays for the RX50 and the TK50 or a TK70. In general, I have found that RT-11 works very well with a TK70 when I use a PDP-11/73 or faster CPU. I recently attempted to use the TK70 with a PDP-11/23 and found that writing to the TK70 was not reliable. I also STRONGLY recommend that when 2 hard disk drives, an RX50 and a TK50 are all used on a BA23 box, an additional PC power supply be used just for the 2 hard disk drives. Otherwise, there will probably be too much current required on the 12 volt supply. In addition, the TK50 requires the power directly from the BA23 (at least in my experience). >I had soldered a pair of 2.2K (?) resistors >onto the back of the 4-button panel to force the 2nd drive >"ready" and "write enabled" full-time. > >I may have the details on that particular modification >tucked away in my documentation somewhere. > > I will note my simple extra circuit. I inserted a 10" temporary 10 pin cable into the standard circuit (to the front panel of the BA23) with a female header at one end and the male header at the other end so that the change was VERY temporary. Within the extra piece of cable, I soldered line 5 to line 1, line 6 to line 2 leaving the portion leading the the front panel on the BA23 hanging (unattached to anything). If I remember correctly, grounding line 5 and line 6 did the same, but after more than 10 years, I am probably wrong and the guess is only that!! The net result is the both hard drives are serviced but the single pair of buttons on the front panel so that both drives are always in the same state. One difficulty is to change the state of the READ ONLY button. Under RT-11, it is sometimes necessary to first UNLOAD DU:, then LOAD DU: which means that DU(X).SYS can't be the Resident System Device. In that case, I transfer the monitor files and other few utilities to the VM: device. >I also worked up instructions a while back to construct >a ribbon cable to go from an RQDXn controller directly to >an RX50 or RX33. > >I should be able to dig that up as well, if anyone is interested. > Yes! Although I doubt that I would ever need to use that circuit. I rarely use the DEC hardware these days as I run RT-11 under Ersatz-11 most of the time. By the way, I also have a dual RX33 configuration that is held inside an empty (discarded) RX50 shell that was from a bad RX50 drive. The RX50 shell makes the two RX33 drives look just like an RX50 at first glance, but the lever to use the diskette gives the situation away at a closer inspection Of course, the RX33 requires an RQDX3 controller. But RT-11 itself (first time ever that DEC supported this function directly within RT-11 for a floppy diskette media) is also able to perform a LLF (Low Level Format) on the RX33 media which is identical to the HD 1.2 MB 5 1/4" PC media and can be formatted on the PC as well if not already formatted (i.e. LLF) when purchased. Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 09:26:05 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:26:05 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE889AD.6010101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DE67591.3040707@softjar.se> <4DE739AB.8010802@dunnington.plus.com> <4DE838DD.5060806@compsys.to> <4DE889AD.6010101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DE8EEFD.20106@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > I got the 4.5A from the microPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide, which > happened to be the nearest to hand when I wrote that. It might not be > correct; it does seem a lot even for such an old drive. I've just > looked hrough some other manuals I believe that I actually measured the current at one point. It was initially 2.5 Amp on the 12 volt, then about 1 Amp after that. > Incidentally, that Maintenance Guide is the same manual which (on page > 8-14) tells how to set the drive select jumpers for DU0: and DU1: in a > BA23. Although it also says (on page 5-6) only to install one RD52 in > a BA23 :-) Whenever I use 2 hard drives on a BA23 for more than about 1 hour, I always use an additional PC power supply just for the hard drives. As for an RD5n or RD3n on an RQDXn, the BA23 circuits fully support 2 hard drives with a 6 button front panel. In my experience, it is the 12 volt current that is the problem. Just be sure to use DS3 for drive 0 and DS4 for drive 1. >> However, in any case, from my point of view, >> it is far better to use an additional PC power >> supply (for just the hard drives) when there >> are two hard drives used in a BA23 box. >> This take the load off the internal power supply. > > I don't bother doing that, but... For a short periods of time under 1 hour, it would probably be OK. BUT, not when you also include an RX50 along with a TK50 or TK70. >> And if you want to use an RX50 and a TK70 >> as well, then you would almost certainly exceed >> the 7 Amp available on the 12 volt internal >> power supply. As I mentioned, always use >> the internal power supply for the TK50 / TK70. >> Whereas I leave the RX50 outside the BA23 >> box if there is no TK70, with a TK70 I usually >> place the RX50 and TK70 inside the BA23 >> box and the 2 hard drives outside the BA23 >> box. > > ...my 11/83 has two RD drives in the BA23 running off the internal > supply, and (when I got it) had an external RX50 which had its own PSU. Just 2 internal hard drives in a lightly loaded BA23 box are probably going to be OK. However, when I used the BA23 box with 2 hard drives, there was also a need for both an RX50 and a TK70. Hence the need for an additional PC power supply just for the hard disk drives. When I run a PDP-11/83 with 4 Hitachi 600 MB ESDI hard drives (which run VERY hot), I always use an additional PC power supply PLUS a fan for each hard drive. I use a Sigma EDSI controller which also supports a passive READ ONLY capability for drives 0, 1 and 2 by grounding a line on a 10 pin cable attached to the controller. I use drive 3 as a scratch drive when I am running an assembly. Jerome Fine From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 3 10:01:27 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 08:01:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <20110602132231.E56985@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jun 2, 11 01:25:33 pm" Message-ID: <201106031501.p53F1Rps011826@floodgap.com> > If Cern were to shut down their server, would WWW die? Well, UMN shut down their gopher server, and we're not dead yet. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Support your local hospital. Play hockey. ---------------------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 3 10:05:01 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 08:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... Message-ID: http://www.filfre.net/2011/05/tops-10-in-a-box/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jun 3 10:53:45 2011 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 11:53:45 -0400 Subject: Reading TOPS-10 and maybe TOPS-20 9 track magtapes? Message-ID: <55182ED3-8B77-4973-A55A-B0F43DEC7CFB@xlisper.com> Does anyone on this list, preferably close to the Boston area, have the ability to read TOPS-10 9 track magtapes? I have a friend with a few tapes from which he'd like to extract the contents. Thanks, David From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 3 11:15:36 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reading TOPS-10 and maybe TOPS-20 9 track magtapes? In-Reply-To: <55182ED3-8B77-4973-A55A-B0F43DEC7CFB@xlisper.com> References: <55182ED3-8B77-4973-A55A-B0F43DEC7CFB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: You might want to talk to Tim Shoppa, though he's in DC. Zane On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone on this list, preferably close to the Boston area, have the > ability to read TOPS-10 9 track magtapes? I have a friend with a few tapes > from which he'd like to extract the contents. > > Thanks, > David From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 3 11:18:31 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Interesting. I think this is the first with a focus on a game. You can find links to other pre-gen'd systems here. http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html My favorite is Ken Harrison's as it includes network support for running under KLH10. Zane On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > http://www.filfre.net/2011/05/tops-10-in-a-box/ > > g. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 3 11:24:55 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 09:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 3 Jun 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Interesting. I think this is the first with a focus on a game. You can > find links to other pre-gen'd systems here. > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html > > My favorite is Ken Harrison's as it includes network support for running > under KLH10. > Thanks for the link Zane. I forwarded it to the page author. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 14:50:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 20:50:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE81E5A.3070904@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jun 2, 11 07:35:54 pm Message-ID: > Good idea to use a guard. For the work I do on Not directly applicable to the BA23 (physcial problems with fitting the things), but at one time you could get miniature toggle switches where you had to pull out the lever slightly to flip them. RS and/or Farnell used to do them (they may still, although I've found a lot of useful switches have been discontinued). When I added a doubles died drive as a second drive to my CoCo ssytem, I added a little logic so that it could appera as either a pair of single sided drives (/D1 and /D2) or as one double-sided drive (/D1). Obviously flipping the mdoe in the middle of disk operations was a sure way to corrupt a disk so I used one of said switches there. > I did this over ten years ago without a schematic, > so I forget the tests that I did. Since it worked, > I assumed that the single switch was able to carry > the extra current for at least a reasonable time. I am sure it can. We are talking about logic-level signals here, I would guess the currents involved are measured in 10's of mA at most. No normal switch is going to have problems with that. > > If you have the information, can you describe the > circuits that were soldered and the size of the > resistors? In addition, would Tony (I guess this > is twice that I have taken your name in vain - > I apologize) be able to suggest the additional > circuits needed to add the green and orange > LEDs to show the same status that the 6 button > front panel for the BA23 shows? Assumeing the circuits on Pete's web page are accurate, it should be quite easy to do this. Are the 4-button and 6-button panels base o nthe same PCB, with the former being partially populated, or are they different PCBs? -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 3 15:51:34 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 21:51:34 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD Message-ID: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Someone has just donated an old ST506 hard drive to the DiscFerret project... This time, it's an Amstrad drive, with part number 40095/A "DRMD20A12A". Thing is, I can't seem to find any information on it -- and at the very least I need to find out what the CHS settings are in order to create a DriveSpec file. Here are a couple of photos: Top of drive: http://twitgoo.com/2bnvcy / http://i52.twitgoo.com/n7yp.jpg PCB: http://twitgoo.com/2bnvdl / http://i53.twitgoo.com/2cgzc0k.jpg Major chips are: Hitachi HD63B01Y0P SanKen STA435A Hitachi HA13426 CF77143FT SSI 540-3CH S8714 32119.1.1F Hybrids: SC619 and SC628 Text at top corner of PCB near power connector: PY349C Head stepper motor is labelled: TYPE 103-4902-0320 10.5VDC 0.26A 0.9 DEG/STEP LOT NO. 05709I 6035095-1 Form factor is 3.5-inch, half-height (about the same height as a 5.25 HH MFM drive) From what I can gather, it's a 20MB MFM drive, with four heads -- there's a sticker on the top which reads: DEFECT:CYLINDER HEAD0 HEAD1 327 386 426 504 HEAD2 HEAD3 216 (The numbers are handwritten -- badly) There's a second sticker along the edge: W A R N I N G WARRANTY VOID IF THIS SHIELD BROKEN Does anyone have any idea what this thing might be? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 3 16:04:28 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 22:04:28 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 03/06/2011 21:51, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > Someone has just donated an old ST506 hard drive to the DiscFerret > project... This time, it's an Amstrad drive, with part number 40095/A > "DRMD20A12A". > > Thing is, I can't seem to find any information on it -- and at the very > least I need to find out what the CHS settings are in order to create a > DriveSpec file. > > Here are a couple of photos: > Top of drive: > http://twitgoo.com/2bnvcy / http://i52.twitgoo.com/n7yp.jpg > PCB: > http://twitgoo.com/2bnvdl / http://i53.twitgoo.com/2cgzc0k.jpg I have one of those, it was the first working hard drive I had on my PC-200. I believe it's a standard 615x4x17 type 2, 20MB drive, or that's how I've always formatted it, I think it will also format up as a 32MB if formatted RLL. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 3 18:02:12 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 19:02:12 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DE967F4.6010407@compsys.to> >Tony Duell wrote: >>I did this over ten years ago without a schematic, >>so I forget the tests that I did. Since it worked, >>I assumed that the single switch was able to carry >>the extra current for at least a reasonable time. >> >I am sure it can. We are talking about logic-level signals here, I would >guess the currents involved are measured in 10's of mA at most. No normal >switch is going to have problems with that. > > That is good to know. I was always concerned that my kludge might damage the hardware. >>If you have the information, can you describe the >>circuits that were soldered and the size of the >>resistors? In addition, would Tony (I guess this >>is twice that I have taken your name in vain - >>I apologize) be able to suggest the additional >>circuits needed to add the green and orange >>LEDs to show the same status that the 6 button >>front panel for the BA23 shows? >> >Assumeing the circuits on Pete's web page are accurate, it should be >quite easy to do this. > >Are the 4-button and 6-button panels base o nthe same PCB, with the >former being partially populated, or are they different PCBs? > I don't have the PCBs for each front panel for the BA23 (4 and 6 button) in front of me, but I would expect that there are at least two significant differences: (a) The lines (probably 5 and 6) from the 10 pin cable which control READY and READ ONLY on drive 2 are not handled at all on the 4 button panel (b) The 4 button panel has 2 LEDs (in the same position as the extra 2 switches on the 6 button panel) which display READ ONLY for the floppy diskette on the RX50 drives (detects when the WRITE PROTECT sticky tab is placed on the media). If possible, it would also be "nice" to have those 2 extra LEDs for the floppy drives displayed on the 6 button panel (or at least added somehow). If I can help in any way, please ask. Jerome Fine From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Fri Jun 3 21:36:50 2011 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Fri, 3 Jun 2011 20:36:50 -0600 Subject: Reading TOPS-10 and maybe TOPS-20 9 track magtapes? References: <55182ED3-8B77-4973-A55A-B0F43DEC7CFB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <99D3B3B551C945D8BCDCCFFC10DDF6E1@RANGER1> you can checkout my website at http://www.3kranger.com/3ktapes.shtm At the bottom of the page I list several other tape conversion sites. One is in NY, 2 in NJ and one in Westford, MA (IBM Conversions). Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Betz" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 03, 2011 09:53 AM Subject: Reading TOPS-10 and maybe TOPS-20 9 track magtapes? Does anyone on this list, preferably close to the Boston area, have the ability to read TOPS-10 9 track magtapes? I have a friend with a few tapes from which he'd like to extract the contents. Thanks, David From phil at ultimate.com Fri Jun 3 11:53:48 2011 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 03 Jun 2011 12:53:48 -0400 Subject: Reading TOPS-10 and maybe TOPS-20 9 track magtapes? In-Reply-To: <55182ED3-8B77-4973-A55A-B0F43DEC7CFB@xlisper.com> References: <55182ED3-8B77-4973-A55A-B0F43DEC7CFB@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <201106031653.p53Grm2W027653@ultimate.com> > Does anyone on this list, preferably close to the Boston area, have > the ability to read TOPS-10 9 track magtapes? I have a friend with a > few tapes from which he'd like to extract the contents. All you need is someone who can image the tapes for you. With those you can use the following to extract the contents: For TOPS-10 BACKUP tapes: ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/backup10.tar.gz For TOPS-20 DUMPER tapes: ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/read20.tar.gz TOPS-20 "archive" tapes can be handled by ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/r20-rutgers.tar.gz phil From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 4 05:33:57 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 12:33:57 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's Message-ID: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> Free for shipping or collecting a Apollo DN 4500 with network and SCSI interface, working is unknown (I never tested it, but the previous owner sayd it's in working condition) Including : keyboard, mouse(cable isolation in bad shape) and video cable. And also included about 30 tapes containing System and Mentor Graphics IC design software. The only thing I'm asking from the new owner is : he is willing to make a binary image of the tapes for Bitsavers.org I promised it to Al, but my workload and other obligations are in the way of completing this task. Everything is located in the Netherlands, but I'm willing to ship worldwide probably 2 heavy boxes. -Rik NB. It's shipping as one lot, I'm not going to part this up. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sat Jun 4 06:31:13 2011 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (Tim Thompson) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 07:31:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel Message-ID: <8CDF0C20B5C50E5-274C-16D35@webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com> Jerome Fine wrote: > If possible, it would also be "nice" to have those 2 extra > LEDs for the floppy drives displayed on the 6 button > panel (or at least added somehow). ISTR that the RQDX3 doesn't have the drive circuitry to support the front panel LED's. Only the RQDX1 and RQDX2. T From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jun 4 07:43:39 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 14:43:39 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's In-Reply-To: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> References: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: It could be interesting. I live in Spain. If you could send one photo it would be great. Regards Sergio 2011/6/4 Rik Bos > Free for shipping or collecting a Apollo DN 4500 with network and SCSI > interface, working is unknown (I never tested it, but the previous owner > sayd it's in working condition) > > Including : keyboard, mouse(cable isolation in bad shape) and video cable. > > And also included about 30 tapes containing System and Mentor Graphics IC > design software. > > The only thing I'm asking from the new owner is : he is willing to make a > binary image of the tapes for Bitsavers.org > > I promised it to Al, but my workload and other obligations are in the way > of > completing this task. > > Everything is located in the Netherlands, but I'm willing to ship worldwide > probably 2 heavy boxes. > > > > > > -Rik > > NB. It's shipping as one lot, I'm not going to part this up. > > From spedraja at ono.com Sat Jun 4 07:45:31 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 14:45:31 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's In-Reply-To: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> References: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Hi again, Rik. Do you asked about this item some months ago ? Just curious. I sent one request then for one machine similar to this in some aspects but I can't faind any message about it. Regards Sergio 2011/6/4 Rik Bos > Free for shipping or collecting a Apollo DN 4500 with network and SCSI > interface, working is unknown (I never tested it, but the previous owner > sayd it's in working condition) > > Including : keyboard, mouse(cable isolation in bad shape) and video cable. > > And also included about 30 tapes containing System and Mentor Graphics IC > design software. > > The only thing I'm asking from the new owner is : he is willing to make a > binary image of the tapes for Bitsavers.org > > I promised it to Al, but my workload and other obligations are in the way > of > completing this task. > > Everything is located in the Netherlands, but I'm willing to ship worldwide > probably 2 heavy boxes. > > > > > > -Rik > > NB. It's shipping as one lot, I'm not going to part this up. > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 4 09:36:42 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 15:36:42 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk> <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> On 03/06/11 22:04, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 03/06/2011 21:51, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Someone has just donated an old ST506 hard drive to the DiscFerret >> project... This time, it's an Amstrad drive, with part number 40095/A >> "DRMD20A12A". [...] > I have one of those, it was the first working hard drive I had on my > PC-200. I believe it's a standard 615x4x17 type 2, 20MB drive, or that's > how I've always formatted it, I think it will also format up as a 32MB > if formatted RLL. Whatever it is, it doesn't have that many cylinders. The head stepper is a 0.9deg/step thing, and the circuitry appears to single-step it. After ~380 steps, the flag on the motor shaft longer moves. It's starting to look like this thing is a Type 01 or 23. But a 3.5in half-height ST506 drive with a 10MB MFM capacity?! That seems too strange to be true... For bonus points, read_winchester is producing 130K of acquisition data per track, and a rotation speed measurement of about 3550RPM. So the data density is (in theory at least) roughly twice what the CDC MFM drive produces. Hmm. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 4 10:29:00 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 08:29:00 -0700 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's In-Reply-To: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> References: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DEA4F3C.3080006@bitsavers.org> On 6/4/11 3:33 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > Free for shipping or collecting a Apollo DN 4500 with network and SCSI > interface I'm interested, if it's still available. CHM has all of the backup media from Apollo through HP, so getting a machine would be helpful. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 4 10:37:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 08:37:16 -0700 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 03/06/2011 21:51, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Someone has just donated an old ST506 hard drive to the DiscFerret > project... This time, it's an Amstrad drive, with part number > 40095/A "DRMD20A12A". Take a closer look--the drive should be "DRND20A"--it's an Alps 20MB unit--615/4/17 are the nominal ratings. 60msec. average access. 10MB isn't unusual for a 3.5" MFM drive; I believe that Rodime even offered a 5MB model (RO-351). --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jun 4 10:52:05 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 17:52:05 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's In-Reply-To: References: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <002101cc22cf$5dd3ad70$197b0850$@xs4all.nl> Sergio, I didn't, this is the first time I offer the machine to a good home.. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens SPC > Verzonden: zaterdag 4 juni 2011 14:46 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's > > Hi again, Rik. Do you asked about this item some months ago ? Just curious. > I sent one request then for one machine similar to this in some aspects but I > can't faind any message about it. > > Regards > Sergio > > 2011/6/4 Rik Bos > > > Free for shipping or collecting a Apollo DN 4500 with network and SCSI > > interface, working is unknown (I never tested it, but the previous > > owner sayd it's in working condition) > > > > Including : keyboard, mouse(cable isolation in bad shape) and video cable. > > > > And also included about 30 tapes containing System and Mentor Graphics > > IC design software. > > > > The only thing I'm asking from the new owner is : he is willing to > > make a binary image of the tapes for Bitsavers.org > > > > I promised it to Al, but my workload and other obligations are in the > > way of completing this task. > > > > Everything is located in the Netherlands, but I'm willing to ship > > worldwide probably 2 heavy boxes. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Rik > > > > NB. It's shipping as one lot, I'm not going to part this up. > > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 4 11:20:38 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 17:20:38 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DEA5B56.4070607@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/11 16:37, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Take a closer look--the drive should be "DRND20A"--it's an Alps 20MB > unit--615/4/17 are the nominal ratings. 60msec. average access. Nope. The label definitely says DRMD20A (with an "M"). Although the similarity with the Alps part number is making me very suspicious... unfortunately photos of Alps MFM drives seem very scarce. Curiously enough, there's also nothing on TULARC about it... One thing I've found out: this thing does NOT support Buffered Seek. Turn that on and it misses steps like crazy... So I need to figure out what value to use for the track-to-track seek delay... Ugh. > 10MB isn't unusual for a 3.5" MFM drive; I believe that Rodime even > offered a 5MB model (RO-351). ... And the RO-352, a 4-head 10MB drive. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 12:54:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 18:54:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DE967F4.6010407@compsys.to> from "Jerome H. Fine" at Jun 3, 11 07:02:12 pm Message-ID: > >>If you have the information, can you describe the > >>circuits that were soldered and the size of the > >>resistors? In addition, would Tony (I guess this > >>is twice that I have taken your name in vain - > >>I apologize) be able to suggest the additional > >>circuits needed to add the green and orange > >>LEDs to show the same status that the 6 button > >>front panel for the BA23 shows? > >> > >Assumeing the circuits on Pete's web page are accurate, it should be > >quite easy to do this. > > > >Are the 4-button and 6-button panels base o nthe same PCB, with the > >former being partially populated, or are they different PCBs? > > > I don't have the PCBs for each front panel for the BA23 > (4 and 6 button) in front of me, but I would expect that > there are at least two significant differences: It sounds like they are differnt PCBs. Darn :-( > > (a) The lines (probably 5 and 6) from the 10 pin cable > which control READY and READ ONLY on drive 2 > are not handled at all on the 4 button panel > > (b) The 4 button panel has 2 LEDs (in the same position > as the extra 2 switches on the 6 button panel) which > display READ ONLY for the floppy diskette on the > RX50 drives (detects when the WRITE PROTECT > sticky tab is placed on the media). RIght... > > If possible, it would also be "nice" to have those 2 extra > LEDs for the floppy drives displayed on the 6 button > panel (or at least added somehow). I assume that's possible too. The reason I am reluctant to powst detailed information at this point is that I normally only post modifications, etc, that I've done myself and thus know can work (no, I cna't prove they always work, but at least I know they've worked once). Similarly any repair methods I mention are ones that I've used. I know vry little abotu the BA23 and related bits, I have no real experiece of working on them (I'm more of a Unibus person :-)). Therefore, I'dwant to get my BA23 onto the bench and test things before saying 'Oh, connect an LED nd resistor here, a switch here', etc. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 4 14:57:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 20:57:59 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEA5B56.4070607@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> <4DEA5B56.4070607@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DEA8E47.8030206@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/11 17:20, Philip Pemberton wrote: > One thing I've found out: this thing does NOT support Buffered Seek. > Turn that on and it misses steps like crazy... So I need to figure out > what value to use for the track-to-track seek delay... Ugh. Another thing I just found out: the head actuator stepper motor isn't stepping properly. Every time I issue a STEP pulse, it seeks out *two* tracks instead of just one. So I end up with a 615-track image, which only contains 308 tracks of valid track data. Does anyone have any ideas why the drive might be doing this, and if it's likely to be fixable? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sat Jun 4 15:19:42 2011 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 16:19:42 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com>, <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net>, <4DE6D47C.23370.36D739F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DEA935E.1030008@ptdprolog.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2011 at 8:30, SPC wrote: > >> "For many years it maintained an almost vegetative life, but on 20 >> May, Duke University, Durham (USA), decided to unplug the server host >> that kept it alive: Usenet, the online network of discussion groups >> formally signed death . It was a precursor to the Internet, but mail, >> RSS, and especially Facebook and Twitter have sustituidoel service >> they provide." > > Didn't Duke shut down their news server May 20 of *last year*? > > How many members of the student body even knew in 2010 that Duke > maintained an active news server? > No pretty pictures and flash menus so why would you expect them to know what Usenet is. BTW New Mexico State University still maintains the hobbes.nmsu.edu server even though almost everyone there probably has no clue as to what ftp (though most access is through http now) is and probably no idea what DOS or OS/2 is. Every few years they ask for donations and people actually always donate more then what is required so they assign a few students to maintain it. The cost is negligible but the historic value is unimaginable for those looking for old OS/2 and DOS freeware/shareware programs. I don't understand why Duke couldn't do the same for it's Usenet server. Mark From vintagecoder at aol.com Sat Jun 4 16:29:17 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 21:29:17 +0000 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? References: <4DEA935E.1030008@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <201106042129.p54LTLU1023395@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sat Jun 4 21:24:22 2011 >> How many members of the student body even knew in 2010 that Duke >> maintained an active news server? Does that even matter? Maybe it wasn't accessible outside their network. > BTW New Mexico State University still maintains the hobbes.nmsu.edu > server even though almost everyone there probably has no clue as to what > ftp (though most access is through http now) is and probably no idea what > DOS or OS/2 is. Every few years they ask for donations and people > actually always donate more then what is required so they assign a few > students to maintain it. The cost is negligible but the historic value > is unimaginable for those looking for old OS/2 and DOS freeware/shareware > programs. The difference is Hobbes is an archive, it's not usenet. Unless they set up mirrors if they go away everything they have goes with them. Not so with usenet, it's a totally separate issue. > I don't understand why Duke couldn't do the same for it's Usenet server. Why would they have to? Usenet is a peering network. Theoretically everything they have is also on other servers. The point of usenet is no individual server needs to exist. It's better if there are more just to distribute the load but no usenet server that operates correctly is indispensible since it should be passing all its articles to other servers. Usenet servers are supposed to be able to come and go without impacting anybody and without loss of data. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 4 16:39:35 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:39:35 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEA8E47.8030206@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> <4DEA5B56.4070607@philpem.me.uk> <4DEA8E47.8030206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DEAA617.1000708@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/11 20:57, Philip Pemberton wrote: > So I end up with a 615-track image, which only contains 308 tracks of > valid track data. OK, I'm an idiot. This was caused by an off-by-one bug in libdiscferret... Basically, the STEP command accepts a number between 0 and 127 for the number of steps to move. 0 is one step, and so on up to 127 for 128 steps. Turns out libdiscferret was sending a value of '1' when it wanted to move the head one step in or out... Then there was a lovely bug which caused the first seek from track 0 to another track to effectively be doubled-up. So if you did a seek from t0 to t4, then from t4 to t10, you'd actually end up at t14... Bugfixed version uploaded with my apologies and a large dose of "D'oh, I can't believe I did something that stupid!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 4 17:00:58 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 23:00:58 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEAA617.1000708@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> <4DEA5B56.4070607@philpem.me.uk> <4DEA8E47.8030206@philpem.me.uk> <4DEAA617.1000708@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DEAAB1A.3080107@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 04/06/2011 22:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 04/06/11 20:57, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> So I end up with a 615-track image, which only contains 308 tracks of >> valid track data. > > OK, I'm an idiot. This was caused by an off-by-one bug in libdiscferret... [Snip!] Doh! We've all been there and done that :( So it turns out that drive is 615x4x[17,26] then ? Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 4 18:19:24 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 00:19:24 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEAAB1A.3080107@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DE94C5C.8060004@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEA42FA.6090905@philpem.me.uk> <4DE9EEBC.20854.1A12DD@cclist.sydex.com> <4DEA5B56.4070607@philpem.me.uk> <4DEA8E47.8030206@philpem.me.uk> <4DEAA617.1000708@philpem.me.uk> <4DEAAB1A.3080107@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4DEABD7C.7040507@philpem.me.uk> On 04/06/11 23:00, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Doh! We've all been there and done that :( I also managed to lean over a powered up CDC Wren-II/HH 5.25in half-height drive while I was probing the DiscFerret's STEP line with my scope. For those of you who have never seen a Wren-II/HH, they have a pair of small-ish HDA interface PCBs on the back of the 'drive enclosure'. There are a dozen or so metal pins joining these two boards. I wear a metal watch. No points for guessing what happened. Thankfully the drive survived, with minimal damage -- a little burning around the Molex socket, and the DiscFerret "power take-off" cable was a little singed, but that's it. Guess I shorted a power rail to the drive casing... > So it turns out that drive is 615x4x[17,26] then ? Yeah, it's a 615-cylinder, 4-head drive. PC-AT drive type 2. If you format it MFM, you get 17 spt (which is how this drive has been formatted). If you format it RLL, you get 26 at the cost of reliability. I don't think I'd bother wiring this drive up to an RLL controller -- the scatter plot for heads 0 and 1 on every track after 75 or so show extreme amounts of 'fuzz' towards the latter half of the track. I'll be surprised if the data on this thing decodes at all. It was probably due for a low-level reformat YEARS ago. Speed accuracy is poor at best -- assuming it's a 3600RPM drive, it's running at least 60RPM slow. Compared this to the CDC, which is barely 2RPM off speed at any given time... Yuck. Oh well, if nothing else it'll probably be handy for stress testing the data-separator and decoder engine. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 4 18:33:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 16:33:02 -0700 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEABD7C.7040507@philpem.me.uk> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DEAAB1A.3080107@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEABD7C.7040507@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DEA5E3E.11819.1CDC6F7@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2011 at 0:19, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'll be surprised if the data on this thing decodes at all. It was > probably due for a low-level reformat YEARS ago. Speed accuracy is > poor at best -- assuming it's a 3600RPM drive, it's running at least > 60RPM slow. Compared this to the CDC, which is barely 2RPM off speed > at any given time... 60 RPM isn't bad at all--less than 2%. Your data separator should have a capture range of at least 5 times that. What matters more is ISV. --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Sat Jun 4 18:57:00 2011 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 19:57:00 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters Message-ID: The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She thought the cases were Bakelite. Is there any value to such things? Is there an on-line market that might let me determine a value, if any? I know she is thinking that if it is worth anything she can use the proceeds to buy supplies. -chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 4 19:00:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 20:00:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> On 6/4/11 7:57 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of > all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to > dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" > meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are > single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, > etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She > thought the cases were Bakelite. > > Is there any value to such things? Is there an on-line market that > might let me determine a value, if any? I know she is thinking that if > it is worth anything she can use the proceeds to buy supplies. There is a gigantic collectors' market for this type of equipment. I have a sizable collection of it myself. Some of it goes for very high dollars, especially Leeds Northrup and Central Scientific equipment. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 4 19:26:23 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:26:23 +0100 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEA5E3E.11819.1CDC6F7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DE94956.6020506@philpem.me.uk>, <4DEAAB1A.3080107@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <4DEABD7C.7040507@philpem.me.uk> <4DEA5E3E.11819.1CDC6F7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DEACD2F.7010102@philpem.me.uk> On 05/06/11 00:33, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 60 RPM isn't bad at all--less than 2%. Your data separator should > have a capture range of at least 5 times that. What matters more is > ISV. If only it was that easy! The timing error in the bad sections is over 20% +/- on the 'good' tracks, and over 60% on cyl 0 head 0. Ho hum. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 4 19:53:33 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 01:53:33 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <8CDF0C20B5C50E5-274C-16D35@webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDF0C20B5C50E5-274C-16D35@webmail-m132.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DEAD38D.7020108@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2011 12:31, Tim Thompson wrote: >> If possible, it would also be "nice" to have those 2 extra >> LEDs for the floppy drives displayed on the 6 button >> panel (or at least added somehow). > > > ISTR that the RQDX3 doesn't have the drive circuitry > to support the front panel LED's. Only the RQDX1 and RQDX2. Not exactly, the RQDX3 has the circuitry (pins 11 and 13 on the 50-way connector) but routed to ready and write protect lines used for a hard drive (the one on DS1). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 4 20:26:15 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 02:26:15 +0100 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DEADB37.2030104@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2011 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> If you have the information, can you describe the >>>> circuits that were soldered and the size of the >>>> resistors? In addition, would Tony (I guess this >>>> is twice that I have taken your name in vain - >>>> I apologize) be able to suggest the additional >>>> circuits needed to add the green and orange >>>> LEDs to show the same status that the 6 button >>>> front panel for the BA23 shows? >>>> >>> Assumeing the circuits on Pete's web page are accurate, it should be >>> quite easy to do this. >>> >>> Are the 4-button and 6-button panels base o nthe same PCB, with the >>> former being partially populated, or are they different PCBs? >>> >> I don't have the PCBs for each front panel for the BA23 >> (4 and 6 button) in front of me, but I would expect that >> there are at least two significant differences: > > It sounds like they are differnt PCBs. Darn :-( > >> (a) The lines (probably 5 and 6) from the 10 pin cable >> which control READY and READ ONLY on drive 2 >> are not handled at all on the 4 button panel >> >> (b) The 4 button panel has 2 LEDs (in the same position >> as the extra 2 switches on the 6 button panel) which >> display READ ONLY for the floppy diskette on the >> RX50 drives (detects when the WRITE PROTECT >> sticky tab is placed on the media). > > RIght... > >> If possible, it would also be "nice" to have those 2 extra >> LEDs for the floppy drives displayed on the 6 button >> panel (or at least added somehow). > > I assume that's possible too. You'd have to add them externally somehow, because the positions they occupy (AFAIR) are taken up by the two illuminated switches for the extra HDD. I thought I had a spare 4-button panel but it turns out my spare is a 6-button, like all the ones on my BA23s here. However, that at least made it easy to have a look at it. If it helps, the PCB number is 5016457, and it's labelled "BA23 FRONT PANEL" in the etch. It has five jumpers on it, one 2-section DIL switch, and three ICs. W1...W4 are all 4-in-a-line molex pins, and all are jumpered pins 1-to-2 and 3-to-4; each is to be connected to one of the four drive-related switches and LEDs. I can't immediately see what W5 or the DIL switch do, and I'm afraid I don't have time to trace it all out at the moment. I do wonder if those jumpers change the routing to suit LEDs for an RX50. Certainly if you removed the fifth and sixth switches, the LED connections would be perfectly placed for LEDs centred in the cutouts in the front panel. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sat Jun 4 21:12:56 2011 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:12:56 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <201106042129.p54LTLU1023395@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> References: <4DEA935E.1030008@ptdprolog.net> <201106042129.p54LTLU1023395@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sat Jun 4 21:24:22 2011 > >>> How many members of the student body even knew in 2010 that Duke >>> maintained an active news server? > > Does that even matter? Maybe it wasn't accessible outside their network. > >> BTW New Mexico State University still maintains the hobbes.nmsu.edu >> server even though almost everyone there probably has no clue as to what >> ftp (though most access is through http now) is and probably no idea what >> DOS or OS/2 is. Every few years they ask for donations and people >> actually always donate more then what is required so they assign a few >> students to maintain it. The cost is negligible but the historic value >> is unimaginable for those looking for old OS/2 and DOS freeware/shareware >> programs. > > The difference is Hobbes is an archive, it's not usenet. Unless they set up > mirrors if they go away everything they have goes with them. Not so with > usenet, it's a totally separate issue. I disagree. I see it as similar. See below. > >> I don't understand why Duke couldn't do the same for it's Usenet server. > > Why would they have to? Usenet is a peering network. Theoretically > everything they have is also on other servers. The point of usenet is no > individual server needs to exist. It's better if there are more just to > distribute the load but no usenet server that operates correctly is > indispensible since it should be passing all its articles to other servers. > Usenet servers are supposed to be able to come and go without impacting > anybody and without loss of data. > But not everyone has access to a usenet server anymore. If there are any free ones left they are limited or have other problems, like poor retention. My ISP still provides Usenet, but I know a lot of people who's ISP killed their usenet service completely. So Usenet is becoming less available. Yes hobbes is an archive, but there are mirrors so it wouldn't be lost entirely, except for the history of it being one of the first and largest of it's kind. If every provider kills their Usenet servers then the network dies. And Google sucks for Usenet, so don't even go there. Mark From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 4 21:16:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:16:19 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> References: <4DEA935E.1030008@ptdprolog.net> <201106042129.p54LTLU1023395@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4DEAE6F3.3080908@neurotica.com> On 6/4/11 10:12 PM, madodel wrote: > But not everyone has access to a usenet server anymore. If there are any > free ones left they are limited or have other problems, like poor > retention. My ISP still provides Usenet, but I know a lot of people > who's ISP killed their usenet service completely. So Usenet is becoming > less available. Yes hobbes is an archive, but there are mirrors so it > wouldn't be lost entirely, except for the history of it being one of the > first and largest of it's kind. If every provider kills their Usenet > servers then the network dies. And Google sucks for Usenet, so don't > even go there. ISPs aren't the only entities capable of running Usenet servers. I'm running one. If you bring one up, I'll peer with you. Usenet isn't in danger of dying, but even if it were, smart people could easily keep it going. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 4 21:22:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 22:22:47 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DE7E35B.80103@philpem.me.uk> References: <201106020550.p525oPpt017864@floodgap.com> <20110601230508.N48060@shell.lmi.net> <4DE7A479.90206@neurotica.com> <4DE7D0FE.1080402@philpem.me.uk> <4DE7D1D0.4020207@neurotica.com> <4DE7E35B.80103@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4DEAE877.4060908@neurotica.com> On 6/2/11 3:24 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Very few in the groups that I read, with the notable exception of >> comp.lang.fortran. It seems the spammers don't consider Usenet to be >> profitable anymore. > > comp.arch.fpga has been slammed into near oblivion for a while. For > extra grins, most of the sci.electronics tree is basically unreadable > for all the spam... :( > > Maybe it's just my Astraweb feed... near-100% completion on binaries, > but spammed to hell... I haven't looked at comp.arch.fpga, but I can certainly see how some groups might have worse spam than others. I wonder how the dirtbags choose which groups to spam. It certainly can't be based on traffic, because I regularly read groups which have the gigantic traffic levels of comp.arch.fpga and see very little spam. I suppose it's possible that my upstream server is doing some sort of spam filtering. I should ask them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Jun 4 21:36:45 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 19:36:45 -0700 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of > all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to > dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" > meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are > single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, > etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She > thought the cases were Bakelite. > > Is there any value to such things? Is there an on-line market that > might let me determine a value, if any? I know she is thinking that if > it is worth anything she can use the proceeds to buy supplies. > Huge collector market, especially in bakelite or wood cased. condition is most everything to collectors. There is still a lab equipment market also, check LabX auctions besides epay. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jun 4 21:48:35 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 19:48:35 -0700 Subject: Info on Sharp CS-4801? Message-ID: <4DEAEE83.8080303@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- I picked up an oddball calculator/computer -- it's labeled on the bottom as a Sharp CS-4801 "Electronic Calculating Machine." At first glance, it looks like a standard desktop 4-function printing + stat function / memory calculator, but it also has a small QWERTY keyboard that slides out from the front. The display is a 20-character alphanumeric VFD. Opening it up reveals a Z80 CPU, 32K of RAM and an EPROM, so there's clearly more than meets the eye here. Unfortunately, I can't get the machine to do anything other than normal calculator functions. I haven't yet dumped the EPROM, but I plan to later this weekend. Anyone know anything about this series? Thanks, Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 4 21:59:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 19:59:18 -0700 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DEA8E96.15041.28A9E1B@cclist.sydex.com> > On Sat, Jun 4, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Charles Dickman stated: > The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of > > all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to > > dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" > > meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are > > single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, > > etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals > on top. Sigh, antique, indeed. I remember Electrical Measurements Lab with wall galvanometers, bakelite and wood-box potentiometers, oil-bath resistors, etc. Heck, I spent several summers carrying around an L&N portable potentiometer to calibrate chart recorders. Said potentiometer had a Weston cell inside as well as a dry cell. You first set your standard against the standard, then used your pocket thrermometer to get the cold-junction temperature, then looked the thermocouple type (Iron-constantan, chromel-alumel, or platinum-rhodium) up in a little booklet and dialed in the corresonding voltage. 3 points or so for each of hundreds of the things. You also took a bit of Windex with you to clean the windows, a pen-cleaning wire, and a few No. 6 dry cells (chart recorders also had Weston cells to calibrate against-- you looked at the position of the calibration slideware to see how far gone the dry cell was) and a few silver slidewire contact beads. It was a long hike back to the shop if you needed something else. Most of the chart recorders were L&N Speedomax, with a few Micromax and whole bunches of Honeywell/Brown Electronik units (tubes, mechanical chopper amplifier). Antiques, indeed. Good memories. --Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jun 4 22:46:32 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 20:46:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> References: <4DEA935E.1030008@ptdprolog.net> <201106042129.p54LTLU1023395@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 4 Jun 2011, madodel wrote: > But not everyone has access to a usenet server anymore. If there are any > free ones left they are limited or have other problems, like poor retention. > My ISP still provides Usenet, but I know a lot of people who's ISP killed > their usenet service completely. So Usenet is becoming less available. Yes > hobbes is an archive, but there are mirrors so it wouldn't be lost entirely, > except for the history of it being one of the first and largest of it's kind. > If every provider kills their Usenet servers then the network dies. And > Google sucks for Usenet, so don't even go there. As Dave McGuire says, he runs a server. There are also news.albasani.net and news.eternal-september.org. Those are good too. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 4 23:13:46 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 04 Jun 2011 21:13:46 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Seattle Retro-Computing Society inaugural meeting June 25th Message-ID: <4DEB027A.1060202@bitsavers.org> -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Seattle Retro-Computing Society inaugural meeting June 25th Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 20:16:11 -0700 (PDT) From: SRCS Admin Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers I am pleased to announce... the Seattle Retro-Computing Society's inaugural meeting, on Saturday, June 25th, 2011! Do you do any of the following with old computers near Seattle? + Use them + Collect them + Play games on them + Write programs for them + Develop new hardware for them + Help other people do any of the above If your answer was "yes," as I expect it will be if you're reading this near Seattle, then the SRCS is for you! We exist so you can show off your awesome stuff, bounce ideas off of fellow enthusiasts, and be inspired by one another's achievements, plans and aspirations. No idea is too big or too small, and we're not picky about what flavor of vintage machine you prefer! Come on down and tell us about it! The meeting is graciously hosted by the Living Computer Museum, a relatively new organization which is building a computer museum in Seattle's SODO neighborhood. There will be refreshments, presentations on various vintage topics of interest, and enough table space & power to set up anything you may want to show off! For further details, please see our page at http://srcs.nfshost.com/. Hope to see you there! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 4 23:53:18 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 21:53:18 -0700 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> References: , <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 6/4/11 7:57 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > > The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of > > all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to > > dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" > > meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are > > single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, > > etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She > > thought the cases were Bakelite. > > > > Is there any value to such things? Is there an on-line market that > > might let me determine a value, if any? I know she is thinking that if > > it is worth anything she can use the proceeds to buy supplies. > > There is a gigantic collectors' market for this type of equipment. I > have a sizable collection of it myself. Some of it goes for very high > dollars, especially Leeds Northrup and Central Scientific equipment. > > -Dave > Hi I have a several nice old RLC bridges. I have this really cool one from Marconi. I even use them every now and then. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 00:28:11 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 01:28:11 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Huge collector market, especially in bakelite or wood cased. condition > is most everything to collectors. Hmmmm...I would not call it huge. In the old radio collector world, the old lab type test equipment is almost at the bottom of the popularity pile. At the old radio swapfests, test equipment, especially the lab type stuff, often ends up in the junker auctions at the end of the day. Sometimes a very good piece can fetch a good price on Ebay, but quite a few more generally do not do very well. There is some good stuff. Any pieces that can be dated to before the turn of the century are good (patent dates are not a great way to figure this out). Any meters with cast metal cases (generally used in power switchboards) are also good. Additionally, any sets that are in super clean condition can fetch a good buck - but I really mean factory-new condition. The meters themselves have value - but only certain ones that are marked with their actual full scale. AC voltmeters from 5 to 10 Volts, as well as from 150 to 600 Volts. DC voltmeters above 300 Volts. DC current meters from 25 to 500 microamps, and from 25 to 500 milliamps. RF ammeters are good no matter what range. Round is better than square. White face is better than black face. Weston is the favorite brand, followed by Western Electric, Westinghouse, GE, Triplett, Roller Smith, Burlington. Null meters are not popular. -- Will From vintagecoder at aol.com Sun Jun 5 02:01:16 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 07:01:16 +0000 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? References: <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <201106050701.p5571KOI024266@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sun Jun 5 06:48:00 2011 > But not everyone has access to a usenet server anymore. If they ever did they also do now. Nothing has changed. Servers come and go. Some ISPs have them, some don't. There are several good free ones, and even a usenet newsgroup just for talking about free news servers called alt.free.newsservers. > If there are any free ones left they are limited or have other problems, > like poor retention. I don't what poor retention means, I guess everybody would define that in his own way. If you use a news client and want articles held for a long time, you are probably going to have to pay for a good server. There are plenty of those still running. You pay for your ISP so why should paying for usenet be objectionable. Ideally it would be free, but... I run my own news server, and judging from the replies to this thread so do several other people. You can do that and control your own retention. > My ISP still provides Usenet, but I know a lot of people who's ISP killed > their usenet service completely. So Usenet is becoming less available. It isn't becoming less available so much as it's used less and is becoming a premium service like anything else that has costs associated with it that has people willing to pay for it. Lucky for us who only care about text newsgroups there are several very nice free servers available, some with signup required but still free. There are other very cheap, good servers. You can use these to peer with and retain as long as you want. > Yes hobbes is an archive, but there are mirrors so it wouldn't be lost > entirely, except for the history of it being one of the first and largest > of it's kind. I hope Hobbes stays around forever and I'm glad to hear there are mirrors. I would be sad to see it go but the data is what matters, and that it's available, not who hosts it. > If every provider kills their Usenet servers then the network dies. As I said before, that's not true. Usenet is a peering protocol. As long as individuals run usenet servers and peer, usenet stays alive. That is the great thing about Usenet. As far as providers killing it, I think more ISPs will get away from usenet simply because it's a cost to them (administration and DASD) and doesn't have much benefit to most of their customers who don't even know what usenet is. Still there are plenty of pay usenet servers thanks to the people who want binaries so big backbone servers are probably going to be around as long as there's pr0n in the world. > And Google sucks for Usenet, so don't even go there. True, so true to the extent that I killfile all google groups posts and so do most of the people I know who run their own newsservers. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 5 05:04:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 06:04:28 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DEB54AC.8010808@neurotica.com> On 6/5/11 1:28 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Huge collector market, especially in bakelite or wood cased. condition >> is most everything to collectors. > > Hmmmm...I would not call it huge. In the old radio collector world, > the old lab type test equipment is almost at the bottom of the > popularity pile. At the old radio swapfests, test equipment, > especially the lab type stuff, often ends up in the junker auctions at > the end of the day. Sometimes a very good piece can fetch a good price > on Ebay, but quite a few more generally do not do very well. The predictable response. You'll find that model trains are fairly unpopular at antique furniture swap meets as well. The antique instrument collectors' world is pretty significant, and quite active. They just tend not to associate much with the antique computer collectors, and even less so with the antique radio collectors...the latter probably because those guys keep peddling the stuff at radio swap meets and it ends up getting trashed! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 5 05:09:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 06:09:51 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: , <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DEB55EF.5090405@neurotica.com> On 6/5/11 12:53 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I have a several nice old RLC bridges. I have this really cool > one from Marconi. Nice! Pics!! > I even use them every now and then. I use mine as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 5 06:14:28 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 07:14:28 -0400 Subject: SIX Button BA23 Front Panel In-Reply-To: <4DEADB37.2030104@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4DEADB37.2030104@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DEB6514.3010304@compsys.to> >Pete Turnbull wrote: > >On 04/06/2011 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: > >>>>> If you have the information, can you describe the >>>>> circuits that were soldered and the size of the >>>>> resistors? In addition, would Tony (I guess this >>>>> is twice that I have taken your name in vain - >>>>> I apologize) be able to suggest the additional >>>>> circuits needed to add the green and orange >>>>> LEDs to show the same status that the 6 button >>>>> front panel for the BA23 shows? >>>>> >>>> Assumeing the circuits on Pete's web page are accurate, it should >>>> be quite easy to do this. >>>> >>>> Are the 4-button and 6-button panels base o nthe same PCB, with the >>>> former being partially populated, or are they different PCBs? >>>> >>> I don't have the PCBs for each front panel for the BA23 >>> (4 and 6 button) in front of me, but I would expect that >>> there are at least two significant differences: >> >> It sounds like they are differnt PCBs. Darn :-( >> >>> (a) The lines (probably 5 and 6) from the 10 pin cable >>> which control READY and READ ONLY on drive 2 >>> are not handled at all on the 4 button panel >>> >>> (b) The 4 button panel has 2 LEDs (in the same position >>> as the extra 2 switches on the 6 button panel) which >>> display READ ONLY for the floppy diskette on the >>> RX50 drives (detects when the WRITE PROTECT >>> sticky tab is placed on the media). >> >> RIght... >> >>> If possible, it would also be "nice" to have those 2 extra >>> LEDs for the floppy drives displayed on the 6 button >>> panel (or at least added somehow). >> >> I assume that's possible too. > > You'd have to add them externally somehow, because the positions they > occupy (AFAIR) are taken up by the two illuminated switches for the > extra HDD. YES!! That would definitely be required!! However, there is certainly room both above and below the 6 buttons where 2 LEDs could be mounted, although to do a professional looking job would probably require quite a bit of work. However, since the PCB and the circuit is so different between the 4 button and the 6 button BA23 front panels, it might be difficult to figure out what is required. I know that I certainly don't have the expertise to even understand what the differences are between the two PCBs, let alone what needs to be added to the 5016457 PCB (without the 2 LEDs for the floppy diskette READ ONLY) to add the required functions - assuming that the 20 pin cable has the needed lines. > I thought I had a spare 4-button panel but it turns out my spare is a > 6-button, like all the ones on my BA23s here. However, that at least > made it easy to have a look at it. If it helps, the PCB number is > 5016457, and it's labelled "BA23 FRONT PANEL" in the etch. It has > five jumpers on it, one 2-section DIL switch, and three ICs. W1...W4 > are all 4-in-a-line molex pins, and all are jumpered pins 1-to-2 and > 3-to-4; each is to be connected to one of the four drive-related > switches and LEDs. I can't immediately see what W5 or the DIL switch > do, and I'm afraid I don't have time to trace it all out at the > moment. I do wonder if those jumpers change the routing to suit LEDs > for an RX50. Certainly if you removed the fifth and sixth switches, > the LED connections would be perfectly placed for LEDs centred in the > cutouts in the front panel. I have 2 spare 4 button BA23 front panels (the first number specified is the PCB number on the non-component side): (a) 5016457 with NO floppy diskette LEDs, but with what looks like circuits ready for 2 more switches 5416458 also appears on the component side of the etch just below the 20 pin header. (b) 5015609 with floppy diskette LEDs at the same location where the extra 2 switches are located within the 6 button front panel for the BA23 box. 5015609-01E1P2 also appears on the component side of the etch just below the 20 pin header. I am also able to confirm that my 6 button BA23 front panel has 5416458 on the component side of the etch. I was not able to see the other side, but I am very confident, based on the location of the components, that 5016457 is on the other side. Both PCBs are substantially different. Based on the information that Pete provided and my own confirmation, it seems quite certain that the PCBs have different circuits. As soon as possible, I will place an RQDX3 into the backplane of the BA23 box with the 4 button BA23 front panel which has the 2 LEDs for displaying when the floppy diskettes are READ ONLY. At present, there is an RQDX1 and the LEDs function correctly. When the RQDX3 is used instead, I will see if they function as well and let you know. Jerome Fine From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jun 5 06:19:34 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 13:19:34 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's In-Reply-To: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> References: <000601cc22a2$ecb8c480$c62a4d80$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <000b01cc2372$767c18f0$63744ad0$@xs4all.nl> It's spoken for.. -Rik From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 5 09:30:56 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 10:30:56 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: References: <4DEA935E.1030008@ptdprolog.net> <201106042129.p54LTLU1023395@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <4DEB9320.8070608@compsys.to> >David Griffith wrote: > >On Sat, 4 Jun 2011, madodel wrote: > >> But not everyone has access to a usenet server anymore. If there are >> any free ones left they are limited or have other problems, like poor >> retention. My ISP still provides Usenet, but I know a lot of people >> who's ISP killed their usenet service completely. So Usenet is >> becoming less available. Yes hobbes is an archive, but there are >> mirrors so it wouldn't be lost entirely, except for the history of it >> being one of the first and largest of it's kind. If every provider >> kills their Usenet servers then the network dies. And Google sucks >> for Usenet, so don't even go there. > > As Dave McGuire says, he runs a server. There are also > news.albasani.net and news.eternal-september.org. Those are good too. Yes, Google is so bad, it is just not even a consideration. I might use them in read only mode, but I would never post. I use news.sunsite.dk and news.external-september.org and both seem to track each other at the 99% level for the 5 Newsgroups that I still follow. Jerome Fine From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 5 13:35:24 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:35:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201106051435.24478.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 04 June 2011 07:57:00 pm Charles Dickman wrote: > The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of > all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to > dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" > meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are > single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, > etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She > thought the cases were Bakelite. > > Is there any value to such things? Is there an on-line market that > might let me determine a value, if any? I know she is thinking that if > it is worth anything she can use the proceeds to buy supplies. > > -chuck I have here an 0-20uA meter I picked up on ebay some time back in just such a configuration as you describe, nice metal slope-front case and a pair of binding posts on top. Cost me a whopping 99 cents, though shipping was a bit more... I wouldn't mind having some more of these in other ranges, but can't afford any sort of an investment at this point in time. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 13:01:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:01:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <4DEABD7C.7040507@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jun 5, 11 00:19:24 am Message-ID: > > Doh! We've all been there and done that :( > > I also managed to lean over a powered up CDC Wren-II/HH 5.25in > half-height drive while I was probing the DiscFerret's STEP line with my > scope. > > For those of you who have never seen a Wren-II/HH, they have a pair of > small-ish HDA interface PCBs on the back of the 'drive enclosure'. There > are a dozen or so metal pins joining these two boards. > > I wear a metal watch. > > No points for guessing what happened. Having worked on stuff with much higher voltages (and currents) than a small winchester hard drive, I was taught very early on not to wear any metal jewellery, wristwatch, etc. FWIW, discharging a car bettery through a metal watch strap is said to be very painful. SImilarly don't keep anything metal (or heavy) in a shirt pocket or similar. I is sure to fall out when you lean ovre something, and, if heave, will find the neck of a CRT or similar, and if metalic will find a point to short-circuit that will do a lot of damage. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 13:17:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:17:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: from "Charles Dickman" at Jun 4, 11 07:57:00 pm Message-ID: > > The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of > all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to > dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" > meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are > single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, > etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She > thought the cases were Bakelite. Some gneeral comments... A good instrument remains a good instrument in many cases. A meter tyhat was good to <1% can be recalibrated and will still be a useful measuring instrument. Soemthing like one of the old potentiometers (I don't mean a 3 terminal variable resisotr, I mean the manual mull-point voltmeter) or measuring bridge is still a very useful thjing to have. In many cases the only advantage that the latest replacemetn gives you is more rapid readings. Which may not matter. I think we all know that just because something is old does not mean it's useless. There si nothing wrong with single-function instruments. I am reminded of a comment in the 'Radio Laboratory Handbook' (M. G. Scroggie). : 'Remember than any instrument, no matter how versatile, can only be in place place in the circuit at any one time'. So while a multimeter is very useful, plain voltmeters, ammeters, etc are also useful. There are also some more specialised meters that turn up occasionally. A moving coil wattmeter is quite a fun thing to have. So is a spot galvanometer (which will measure down to fractions of a microamp in many cases, somethign that nor all DMMs will manage). A ballistic galvanometer, used to measure charge, can be useful. As can electostatic voltmeters. The problem is that these things do not often turn up in school labs. Alas, a lot of school physics equipment (stuff made specifically for schools) was and is cr*p. I bitterly remember some of the stuff we had to sue at school, things like a 'scope with a 2" screen and a continuously variable Y attenuator with approximate calibration markignso n the panel. Fine for seeing a wiggly line, useless for actually measuring anything. Meters that had linearity errors (!) of about 10%. And so on. There are certainly people who collect (and use) old high-quality measuring instruments. I suspect the market for poorer quality ones is a lot less. They might be useful [1] but I doubt anyone will pay a lot for them. I cna;t beleive there's much a of a 'nostalgia market' for them either. [1] For example, if you have a complex analogue device (sauy a radio receiver) that has a naster intermittant fault, you cna connet as many voltmeters as you can find to supply rails, anodes/collectors, etc throughout the device. With it working normally, you note the readings on every meter, or more commonly, just put a mark (chinagraph, write4all, etc) no the meter glass. When it palys up, you cna see what's changeed. You don't need good meters for this, since all you need them to do is show that something has changed. I think I'd want to know a lot more about the instruments in question, brand names, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 5 13:19:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 19:19:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 4, 11 08:00:10 pm Message-ID: > There is a gigantic collectors' market for this type of equipment. I > have a sizable collection of it myself. Some of it goes for very high > dollars, especially Leeds Northrup and Central Scientific equipment. And over here, names like Pye Unicam, Cambridge Instrument Compant, etc But how much of that sort of stuff turns up in school labs? -tony From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 5 13:42:42 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:42:42 -0400 Subject: Usenet is officially dead from May 20th ? In-Reply-To: <201106050701.p5571KOI024266@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> References: <4DEAE628.20402@ptdprolog.net> <201106050701.p5571KOI024266@imr-da02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <201106051442.42593.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 05 June 2011 03:01:16 am vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > From madodel at ptdprolog.net Sun Jun 5 06:48:00 2011 > > > But not everyone has access to a usenet server anymore. > > If they ever did they also do now. Nothing has changed. Servers come and > go. Some ISPs have them, some don't. There are several good free ones, and > even a usenet newsgroup just for talking about free news servers called > alt.free.newsservers. Verizon has one, though it took a while to get the specifics on what I needed to have to access it. They decided a while back that they were no longer going to provide any access to the alt.* stuff, none whatsoever, which is a damn shame because that's where I found some useful stuff from time to time... (snip) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jun 5 13:44:23 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 11:44:23 -0700 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> References: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <80995f026f3e0724868caf2b2935aa9d@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 4, at 5:00 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/4/11 7:57 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> The local high school physics teacher was told to clean out the lab of >> all the "old junk." She has a bunch of meters that she is supposed to >> dump, but she wanted to know if there was any market for "antique" >> meters. I have not seen them, but the way she describes them they are >> single function meters (galvanometers, AC voltmeter, DC voltmeter, >> etc.) in slope from cases with binding screw terminals on top. She >> thought the cases were Bakelite. >> >> Is there any value to such things? Is there an on-line market that >> might let me determine a value, if any? I know she is thinking that if >> it is worth anything she can use the proceeds to buy supplies. > > There is a gigantic collectors' market for this type of equipment. > I have a sizable collection of it myself. Some of it goes for very > high dollars, especially Leeds Northrup and Central Scientific > equipment. We should keep in mind the source of this stuff: a high-school lab. Sure, there's always a possibility there are some old/valuable pieces in there that perhaps were donated to the high school some time ago, but given the situation it's more likely to be lower-end stuff for student/course use from the 70's-or-so and not of much value. I wouldn't anticipate much, either in dollars as the seller or in equipment as a collector. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 5 13:56:24 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 05 Jun 2011 14:56:24 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: <80995f026f3e0724868caf2b2935aa9d@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> <80995f026f3e0724868caf2b2935aa9d@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DEBD158.7010202@neurotica.com> On 6/5/11 2:44 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > We should keep in mind the source of this stuff: a high-school lab. > Sure, there's always a possibility there are some old/valuable pieces in > there that perhaps were donated to the high school some time ago, but > given the situation it's more likely to be lower-end stuff for > student/course use from the 70's-or-so and not of much value. I wouldn't > anticipate much, either in dollars as the seller or in equipment as a > collector. The majority of the high-end stuff coming to the surface these days is coming out of long-forgotten storerooms in colleges. A lot of that stuff got donated to high schools decades ago, and so shows up there as well. Good stuff showing up in high schools is nowhere near as common as colleges, but it does happen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 5 14:26:22 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 15:26:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Old high school physics lab meters In-Reply-To: <80995f026f3e0724868caf2b2935aa9d@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DEAC70A.1070501@neurotica.com> <80995f026f3e0724868caf2b2935aa9d@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > We should keep in mind the source of this stuff: a high-school lab. Sure, > there's always a possibility there are some old/valuable pieces in there > that perhaps were donated to the high school some time ago, but given the > situation it's more likely to be lower-end stuff for student/course use from > the 70's-or-so and not of much value. I wouldn't anticipate much, either in > dollars as the seller or in equipment as a collector. I agree. Those sloped front cases also tend to detract from the value of the meters. And any meters with cracked or chipped cases or glass, open shunts and windings, peeling face paint, or needles that will not zero, are generally worthless. Repair is easy, but I doubt she wants to deal with repair at all. The meter market is largely driven by the vintage audio crowd, and to a lesser extent the ham builder crowd. They have no place for the cases, and tend to junk them. This is also why certain ranges of meters are good, and others are not - they basically correspond to what the circuits are that the guys are playing with - tube filament voltages, plate currents, and so forth. I have sold more than 700 meters in the past 3 years. If the physics teacher needs more advice, I can point out the ones that have potential. Honesty, I think she should see if some local ham club could take them off her hands and sell them at a hamfest, and maybe get a percentage. Maybe the Boy Scouts could help. -- Will From chr15bailey at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jun 5 16:36:26 2011 From: chr15bailey at yahoo.co.uk (chris bailey) Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2011 22:36:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Haul Update. Message-ID: <476512.55367.qm@web27104.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Adrian Graham? witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk? ( Ely, Cambridge) ? - DEC pro 350 (x2) - Vax Console? -? Boxes of 115v fans - Paper tapes - Microfiche + reader - V3201 monitor - ? ? ? Rob Jarrett? robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com? ? -? Microvax II - ? ? John Shadbolt?Documentation, handbooks.??john_shadbolt at talk21.com?? (BT, Martlesham Heath Ipswich). ? - ? ? ? VRxxx + VTxxx - Paul Anderson useddec at gmail.com? (awaiting payment for postage) ? 1. Cook Book on Vax desktop monitors (general lists & Parts lists for all monitors) 2.?VT330 Pocket service guide 3. VT240 series -?Pocket service guide (two copies) 4. VT220 Pocket service guide 5. VT220 Programmer pocket guide 6.?VT102 Programming reference card 7. VT101 series - Pocket service guide 7. VT100 User guide 8. VR330 Pocket service guide 9. VR319 Monitor service guide 10. VR290 Colour video? monitor (illustrated service guide) Also -?VR14 CRT display illustated parts breakdown + troubleshooting procedures for VR14/VR20.+ VT50 (some?paperwork) ? ? PDP12 documents?? Owen Sharp? ohh at panix.com?? (Seattle, Washington USA) ? ? PDP12? - Demo/Monitor/users guide (A4 paperwork inc spacewars, kalidescope info?etc) PDP12??- Instruction List LINC mode (card) ? Boxes Of TU 58's DECtapes? Barry Moyer? iamvirtual at gmail.com?? (Langdon, Calgary,?Canada)? ? ? ? PDP-8 Documents. + boxes of IC's? Gerhard Kreuzer ?gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at? (Vienna, Austria) ? 1.?PDP8?????Diagnostic programs index by options (1973) 2. PDP8???? Product summary (1979) 3.?PDP8?????Software Components catalogue (July 1979) 4. PDP8?????Pocket reference card (two copies)? 5. PDP8/a? Miniprocessor handbook (two copies) 6. PDP8/a? Minicomputer handbook 7. PDP8???? Introduction to programming (two copies) 8. PDP8/e, PDP8/m, PDP8/f? Small computer handbook 9. PDP8/e & PDP8/m? Small computer handbook (1972) 10. OS/8? Operating system RTPS (pocket reference card) 11.??PDP8? Intro to Prog (A4 paperwork) -?Inc. - Front panel exercise ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?- Loading exercise ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? - ODT?exercise. 12. PDP8/a circuit diagrams (Paper drawings) ? ? ? Microvax info?? Peter Coghlan? ?PETER at beyondthepale.ie? (Dublin, Ireland) ? MIcrovax - Maintenance info Vol 2 - Enclosures DECStation 3100 & VAXstation 3100 Maintenance guide & info VAXstation 2000 & Microvax 2000 Maintenance guide. From technobug at comcast.net Mon Jun 6 12:25:34 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2011 10:25:34 -0700 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3B81AEB2-021A-40C0-BC2E-3CF8B1E803D7@comcast.net> On Sun, 05 Jun 2011 00:19:24 +0100, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 04/06/11 23:00, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> Doh! We've all been there and done that :( > > I also managed to lean over a powered up CDC Wren-II/HH 5.25in > half-height drive while I was probing the DiscFerret's STEP line with my > scope. > > For those of you who have never seen a Wren-II/HH, they have a pair of > small-ish HDA interface PCBs on the back of the 'drive enclosure'. There > are a dozen or so metal pins joining these two boards. > > I wear a metal watch. > > No points for guessing what happened. Back in my high school days, a friend working on his relay computer science project laid his metal watch band across a selenium rectifier and managed to cauterize all the veins and such in his wrist - taught me to never wear jewelry and the like. While on my military stint, a gentleman jumped from a truck catching his wedding ring on the deck and completely deboning that finger - taught me to never get married. -> CRC From blkline at attglobal.net Mon Jun 6 12:47:12 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 06 Jun 2011 13:47:12 -0400 Subject: Info on Amstrad 40095/A / DRMD20A12A MFM HDD In-Reply-To: <3B81AEB2-021A-40C0-BC2E-3CF8B1E803D7@comcast.net> References: <3B81AEB2-021A-40C0-BC2E-3CF8B1E803D7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4DED12A0.90005@attglobal.net> On 06/06/2011 01:25 PM, CRC wrote: > While on my military stint, a gentleman jumped from a truck catching > his wedding ring on the deck and completely deboning that finger - > taught me to never get married. > Thanks. Now I have to clean the damned laptop screen. Barry From trs80 at marmotking.com Sat Jun 4 23:34:37 2011 From: trs80 at marmotking.com (David J. Cooper) Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 21:34:37 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Seattle Retro-Computing Society inaugural meeting June 25th In-Reply-To: <4DEB027A.1060202@bitsavers.org> References: <4DEB027A.1060202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3B8E8646C49844FCBB2FD76987FB75B2@newworldorder> Wow, thanks for posting this! This is fantastic! -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow Sent: Saturday, June 04, 2011 9:13 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Fwd: Seattle Retro-Computing Society inaugural meeting June 25th -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Seattle Retro-Computing Society inaugural meeting June 25th Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 20:16:11 -0700 (PDT) From: SRCS Admin Organization: http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.folklore.computers I am pleased to announce... the Seattle Retro-Computing Society's inaugural meeting, on Saturday, June 25th, 2011! Do you do any of the following with old computers near Seattle? + Use them + Collect them + Play games on them + Write programs for them + Develop new hardware for them + Help other people do any of the above If your answer was "yes," as I expect it will be if you're reading this near Seattle, then the SRCS is for you! We exist so you can show off your awesome stuff, bounce ideas off of fellow enthusiasts, and be inspired by one another's achievements, plans and aspirations. No idea is too big or too small, and we're not picky about what flavor of vintage machine you prefer! Come on down and tell us about it! The meeting is graciously hosted by the Living Computer Museum, a relatively new organization which is building a computer museum in Seattle's SODO neighborhood. There will be refreshments, presentations on various vintage topics of interest, and enough table space & power to set up anything you may want to show off! For further details, please see our page at http://srcs.nfshost.com/. Hope to see you there! From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 7 15:42:30 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 22:42:30 +0200 Subject: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 Message-ID: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> As it says a TI Silent 700 terminal, acoustic coupler type. It's in working condition but the keyboard needs attention not all keys are working. -Rik From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 7 16:29:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 17:29:16 -0400 Subject: fun electronics+vintage success Message-ID: <4DEE982C.8030303@neurotica.com> [cross-posted to the hercules-os360 and midatlanticretro lists due to relevant references] Due to all the stuff going on lately, there have been times over the past few weeks when I've needed some therapeutic hack time. I dug up the source code for the Berkeley SPICE 2 analog circuit simulator, plus the assembler assists for IBM 360/370 mainframes. SPICE 2 is written in FORTRAN IV, but it requires assembler assists for a few things, and they must be provided for whatever architecture and operating system you're porting it to. (well, C under UNIX, but assembler on most everything else) The 360/370 assembler assists were written for the VM/370 operating system; they use the DIAGNOSE interface to CP for TOD clock access. While I do run VM/370 from time to time, most recently I've been pretty deeply into MVS. So, I rewrote the assembler assists for MVS, wrote the small pile of JCL required to compile it all, and got it working today. I'm now happily running SPICE simulations under MVS 3.8J on an emulated (via Hercules) IBM 370. This required learning lots of new stuff, which of course is the best part. Now I know a lot more about 360/370 assembler, how to call assembler routines from FORTRAN and pass data back and forth, and how to compile/assemble and link multiple modules into a single executable via JCL. I've not yet tried it under OS/360 MVT, but I will soon. I hope to eventually be able to run this on my real System/370 at the new building in PA. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From shumaker at att.net Tue Jun 7 16:31:02 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 14:31:02 -0700 Subject: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 In-Reply-To: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> interested.. shipping form where? s On 6/7/2011 1:42 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > As it says a TI Silent 700 terminal, acoustic coupler type. > > It's in working condition but the keyboard needs attention not all keys are > working. > > > > -Rik > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 7 18:22:57 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 19:22:57 -0400 Subject: [hercules-os360] fun electronics+vintage success In-Reply-To: <8191DD1B89534D4ABCCB0D83B4C11F5E@EMACHINE> References: <8191DD1B89534D4ABCCB0D83B4C11F5E@EMACHINE> Message-ID: <4DEEB2D1.2090404@neurotica.com> On 6/7/11 5:43 PM, Dave wrote: > I hope to eventually be able to run this on my real System/370 at the > new building in PA. > > Be very interested in seeing the results from this on real hardware. > When I ran Spice II under VM/370R6 I got slightly different results to > the sample print outs provided. I know it was one digit in the last > place so could just be normal floating point jitter, on the other hand > it could be something in the Hercules floating point code not adding > enough guard bytes. Any comment It's easily many months off, but when I do bring up that machine, I'm sure I'll inform (i.e., "brag to" ;)) everyone here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 7 18:54:12 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 18:54:12 -0500 Subject: [hercules-os360] fun electronics+vintage success In-Reply-To: <4DEEB2D1.2090404@neurotica.com> References: <8191DD1B89534D4ABCCB0D83B4C11F5E@EMACHINE>, <4DEEB2D1.2090404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 7 Jun 2011 19:22:57 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: hercules-os360 at yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [hercules-os360] fun electronics+vintage success > CC: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; midatlanticretro at yahoogroups.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 6/7/11 5:43 PM, Dave wrote: > > I hope to eventually be able to run this on my real System/370 at the > > new building in PA. > > > > Be very interested in seeing the results from this on real hardware. > > When I ran Spice II under VM/370R6 I got slightly different results to > > the sample print outs provided. I know it was one digit in the last > > place so could just be normal floating point jitter, on the other hand > > it could be something in the Hercules floating point code not adding > > enough guard bytes. Any comment > > It's easily many months off, but when I do bring up that machine, I'm > sure I'll inform (i.e., "brag to" ;)) everyone here. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL I built this too a couple months ago, using gcc in fortran mode. Only problem I had was the 'time' function to measure the simulation run time. Its not in the gcc intrinsic lib, so I just stubbed it out. My version was 2g.6 Randy From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 7 20:33:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2011 21:33:50 -0400 Subject: [hercules-os360] fun electronics+vintage success In-Reply-To: References: <8191DD1B89534D4ABCCB0D83B4C11F5E@EMACHINE>, <4DEEB2D1.2090404@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DEED17E.3090901@neurotica.com> On 6/7/11 7:54 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > I built this too a couple months ago, using gcc in fortran mode. Neat! Wow, I'm shocked that GNU FORTRAN could digest that ancient FORTRAN IV code! Did you have to change much in the source? My efforts ended up with a single JCL file containing the FORTRAN and assembler sources and three jobsteps that result in an executable. Kinda neat to encapsulate it all that way. (speaking from the standpoint of a 25-year UNIX veteran, that is) > Only problem I had was the 'time' function to measure the simulation > run time. Its not in the gcc intrinsic lib, so I just stubbed it > out. "When in doubt, comment it out!" ;) The time-related stuff is what choked it for me as well, initially. The assembler assists use DIAGNOSE 00C to get the TOD clock values, which assembles just fine of course, but very quickly results in an ABEND when run under MVS. ;) I hadn't really gone through the assembler sources when I first got it built but it wouldn't run. I figured I'd need to understand the FORTRAN<->assembler linkage stuff to debug it, so I went off in that direction. It was then that I was able to decipher enough of the two offending functions (SECOND and DATIME) to notice the DIAGNOSE calls, and said, "ahh, this is for VM/CMS!" I had thought it was an MVS program all along. I've used SPICE for years, but only under UNIX, and never the old FORTRAN version. > My version was 2g.6 That's the one I'm working with as well. It's the last of the SPICE 2 line, as far as I'm aware. Fun stuff! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 8 04:17:28 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:17:28 +0200 Subject: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 In-Reply-To: <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> Message-ID: <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> In the Netherlands.. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens steve shumaker > Verzonden: dinsdag 7 juni 2011 23:31 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 > > interested.. shipping form where? > > s > > On 6/7/2011 1:42 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > As it says a TI Silent 700 terminal, acoustic coupler type. > > > > It's in working condition but the keyboard needs attention not all > > keys are working. > > > > > > > > -Rik > > > > > > From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 8 04:40:27 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 11:40:27 +0200 Subject: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 In-Reply-To: <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Is this model, isn't so ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_700 Sergio 2011/6/8 Rik Bos > In the Netherlands.. > > -Rik > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > ] > > Namens steve shumaker > > Verzonden: dinsdag 7 juni 2011 23:31 > > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Onderwerp: Re: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 > > > > interested.. shipping form where? > > > > s > > > > On 6/7/2011 1:42 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > As it says a TI Silent 700 terminal, acoustic coupler type. > > > > > > It's in working condition but the keyboard needs attention not all > > > keys are working. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Rik > > > > > > > > > > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 8 05:02:35 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:02:35 +0200 Subject: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 In-Reply-To: References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <001401cc25c3$34317a50$9c946ef0$@xs4all.nl> Yes, it is. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens SPC > Verzonden: woensdag 8 juni 2011 11:40 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 > > Is this model, isn't so ? > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_700 > > Sergio > > > 2011/6/8 Rik Bos > > > In the Netherlands.. > > > > -Rik > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > ] > > > Namens steve shumaker > > > Verzonden: dinsdag 7 juni 2011 23:31 > > > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Onderwerp: Re: Free for the cost of shipping : TI Silent 700 > > > > > > interested.. shipping form where? > > > > > > s > > > > > > On 6/7/2011 1:42 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > As it says a TI Silent 700 terminal, acoustic coupler type. > > > > > > > > It's in working condition but the keyboard needs attention not all > > > > keys are working. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -Rik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Wed Jun 8 05:54:20 2011 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 03:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Drawing lines on metal panels Message-ID: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'm trying to recondition a metal front panel which is white with black lettering. ? Some of the controls have boxes drawn around them in black, and on one of the boxes, the black line has faded away. ? I'd like to repair this, and wondered if anyone has any suggestions. The line is about 1mm, possibly 2mm?wide. ? I've tried a quality marker pen, but the ink doesnt 'stick' to the panel, also its not a clean enough edge on the line. ? I'm thinking that something like lettreset might work - the line is only about 5cm long (or 2" in old money). ? I havent managed to find anyone selling 'lines' though, just letters. ? Any ideas? ? Thanks ? Ian ? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jun 8 06:54:14 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 07:54:14 -0400 Subject: PDP11 hardware available for pickup In-Reply-To: <694129b5-b634-43eb-b88d-74abdf8ef7cc@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com> References: <694129b5-b634-43eb-b88d-74abdf8ef7cc@glegroupsg2000goo.googlegroups.com> Message-ID: <4DEF62E6.2010608@compsys.to> Appeared on :"alt.sys.pdp11". I know neither Jim Bostwick nor Bruce Mitchell. I have never had any contact with them. Jerome Fine >Dr. Klahn wrote: >Jim Bostwick's computer collection is going for rescue >or recycling. The following items are up for grabs: > >11/44, 11/40, TU80, Pertec rack mount 9 channel tape, >Fuji J11 board for 11/24, considerable DEC documents, >RK07 drives and packs, RL01/RL02 drives and packs, Fuji >Double Eagle SMDs, CDC 9730/160 SMDs, numerous ST506 >drives. I'm sorry, but I don't have a detailed list of >everything available. > >Any of the above that anyone wants, they can have free. >Pick it up or arrange for pickup in Dayton, MN before June >20, 2011, the sooner the better. > >Bruce Mitchell >Editor Emeritus, "The Multi-Tasker" >Contact me through: http://www.miim.com/consult.html#conts > From doug at doughq.com Wed Jun 8 07:20:16 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 22:20:16 +1000 Subject: Core Memory Board - DEC H215 Message-ID: HI, A couple of months ago there was somebody looking for a replacement core board. I apologise for sending to the list, but I have lost the email. I have one - condition completely unknown, but at least the cores appear intact - and still covered by the perspex shield. It is available for shipping - I am in Australia. It is identified as a 8K x 18 array. Doug From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 8 07:32:55 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 13:32:55 +0100 Subject: Drawing lines on metal panels In-Reply-To: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DEF6BF7.3040203@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/06/2011 11:54, silvercreekvalley wrote: > I'm trying to recondition a metal front panel which is white with black lettering. > > Some of the controls have boxes drawn around them in black, and on one of > the boxes, the black line has faded away. > > I'd like to repair this, and wondered if anyone has any suggestions. The line is > about 1mm, possibly 2mm wide. > > I've tried a quality marker pen, but the ink doesnt 'stick' to the panel, also its > not a clean enough edge on the line. > > I'm thinking that something like lettreset might work - the line is only about 5cm > long (or 2" in old money). > > I havent managed to find anyone selling 'lines' though, just letters. All Letraset sheets have guidelines under the letters, and most have some lines elsewhere which - though not intended as rub-down - do work, especially if you use the "pre-release" technique (which you'd need to do on a hard panel anyway). Alternatively, I'd suggest a Rotring or similar draughtsman's pen, ideally with the "etching" ink normally used for tracing film (as opposed to the usual black ink used for paper and tracing paper). A third option would be the rub-down transfers or tapes used for PCB layouts, still available from Farnell, RS, etc. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From george at rachors.com Wed Jun 8 10:09:07 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:09:07 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> Portland Oregon only.... I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. Is anyone interested if I snag them. Please local pickup in the Beaverton Oregon area only. George Rachor george at rachors.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 8 10:24:28 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 08:24:28 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> Message-ID: <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> On 6/8/11 8:09 AM, George Rachor wrote: > Portland Oregon only.... > > I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. > > Is anyone interested if I snag them. > If you can't save the hardware, please save the docs and software. There are some multibus board docs, like for the ethernet controller, that are very difficult to find. From george at rachors.com Wed Jun 8 10:27:46 2011 From: george at rachors.com (george at rachors.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 08:27:46 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> Message-ID: <37f76703f881290b20ee081f04eb33a9.squirrel@rachors.com> Forgot to mention.. They are presently sitting in some nice racks which are alvailable..... Again.. Beaverton Oregon... george at rachors.com > Portland Oregon only.... > > I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send > some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. > > Is anyone interested if I snag them. > > Please local pickup in the Beaverton Oregon area only. > > George Rachor > > george at rachors.com > From doc at vaxen.net Wed Jun 8 10:38:17 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 10:38:17 -0500 Subject: Drawing lines on metal panels In-Reply-To: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DEF9769.6040201@vaxen.net> silvercreekvalley wrote: > I'm trying to recondition a metal front panel which is white with black lettering. > > Some of the controls have boxes drawn around them in black, and on one of > the boxes, the black line has faded away. > > I'd like to repair this, and wondered if anyone has any suggestions. The line is > about 1mm, possibly 2mm wide. > > > I havent managed to find anyone selling 'lines' though, just letters. > > Any ideas? If you don't mind dropping a couple of dollars on it, get it pinstriped. Your local custom hotrod or motorcycle shop will know who to call. It probably won't cost as much as you'd expect. If you have an example or a photo take it with you. Doc From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 12:23:41 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 10:23:41 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> Message-ID: > Portland Oregon only.... > > I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. > > Is anyone interested if I snag them. > > Please local pickup in the Beaverton Oregon area only. > > George Rachor Hi George, I am interested and could pick up in Portland. I have a 380 and a 330 and some 310 parts so they would fit into my collection. I like the older intel machines and wish I had saved more when we were buying from intel. Let me know if they are still available, I have a van and could pick up. Paxton Astoria, OR -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 12:24:44 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 10:24:44 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> Message-ID: >> I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. OOps, sorry that was supposed to be private.. Pax -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jun 8 12:40:03 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 12:40:03 -0500 Subject: fun electronics+vintage success In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 6/8/11, Dave wrote: > So, I rewrote the assembler assists for MVS, wrote the small pile of >JCL required to compile it all, and got it working today. I'm now >happily running SPICE simulations under MVS 3.8J on an emulated (via >Hercules) IBM 370. At 12:00 -0500 6/8/11, Randy wrote: >I built this too a couple months ago, using gcc in fortran mode. Geek meter: pegged! Pretty cool ... -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 8 13:09:53 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 18:09:53 +0000 Subject: Borland TASM manuals, thanks! Message-ID: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> Charlie, Al, thanks for the Turbo Assembler 5.0 doc! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 8 13:26:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 19:26:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Drawing lines on metal panels In-Reply-To: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "silvercreekvalley" at Jun 8, 11 03:54:20 am Message-ID: > I'm thinking that something like lettreset might work - the line is only ab= > out 5cm > long (or 2" in old money). > =A0 > I havent managed to find anyone selling 'lines' though, just letters. At one time you could get rub-down lines, corners, etc (similar to Letraset) for making PCBs, either to put directly on the coper-clad board (they were resistnat ot the etchant) or for making the artwork to use witha UV exposure unit. I guess 'everybody' uses a CAD system these days, so such things are not common. But they might still be avaialable somwwhere. -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 8 16:21:38 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2011 18:21:38 -0300 Subject: Drawing lines on metal panels References: <804622.14819.qm@web65901.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4DEF6BF7.3040203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <3491DB0FD8414C15B57AEC0A24B9F927@portajara> > A third option would be the rub-down transfers or tapes used for PCB > layouts, still available from Farnell, RS, etc. There are letraset sets with lines for PCB drawing, you cn try using that OR you can use masking tape, and paint to redo the line..its not that hard :) From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Jun 8 23:06:33 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 08 Jun 2011 23:06:33 -0500 Subject: Borland TASM manuals, thanks! In-Reply-To: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com> On 6/8/2011 1:09 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Charlie, Al, thanks for the Turbo Assembler 5.0 doc! > You're quite welcome for what little I did. Al certainly deserves the bulk of the credit. Later, Charlie C. From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 9 08:35:15 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 06:35:15 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D413B95-6059-4837-A74D-2C9BD0C40AEC@rachors.com> Thanks Al, I think I've managed to get local takers.... George On Jun 8, 2011, at 8:24 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/8/11 8:09 AM, George Rachor wrote: >> Portland Oregon only.... >> >> I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. >> >> Is anyone interested if I snag them. >> > > If you can't save the hardware, please save the docs and software. > There are some multibus board docs, like for the ethernet controller, > that are very difficult to find. > > > From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 9 08:36:02 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 06:36:02 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> Message-ID: <78DE7DB3-BF96-44BA-91FC-399FF73F4C05@rachors.com> Thanks everyone! I think I have a couple of local takers... Yay! Saved from the dumpster! George On Jun 8, 2011, at 8:09 AM, George Rachor wrote: > Portland Oregon only.... > > I have a friend that has passed away and his wife is preparing to send some Intel systems to the dump unless I speak up. > > Is anyone interested if I snag them. > > Please local pickup in the Beaverton Oregon area only. > > George Rachor > > george at rachors.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 9 10:11:27 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 08:11:27 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <4D413B95-6059-4837-A74D-2C9BD0C40AEC@rachors.com> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> <4D413B95-6059-4837-A74D-2C9BD0C40AEC@rachors.com> Message-ID: <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> On 6/9/11 6:35 AM, George Rachor wrote: > Thanks Al, > > I think I've managed to get local takers.... > um.. was there any documentation and software? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 9 15:20:05 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 13:20:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FWD: PDP11 hardware available in Dayton, MN Message-ID: Here's something I found in alt.sys.pdp11. I have no connection to Bruce Mitchell. Would someone please save this stuff from the scrap heap? David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu --begin quote-- Tue, 07 Jun 2011 23:28:15 alt.sys.pdp11 Thread 1 of 1 Lines 17 PDP11 hardware available for pickup 6 Responses Dr. Klahn at http://groups.google.com Newsgroups: alt.sys.pdp11 Jim Bostwick's computer collection is going for rescue or recycling. The following items are up for grabs: 11/44, 11/40, TU80, Pertec rack mount 9 channel tape, Fuji J11 board for 11/24, considerable DEC documents, RK07 drives and packs, RL01/RL02 drives and packs, Fuji Double Eagle SMDs, CDC 9730/160 SMDs, numerous ST506 drives. I'm sorry, but I don't have a detailed list of everything available. Any of the above that anyone wants, they can have free. Pick it up or arrange for pickup in Dayton, MN before June 20, 2011, the sooner the better. Bruce Mitchell Editor Emeritus, "The Multi-Tasker" Contact me through: http://www.miim.com/consult.html#conts From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 9 16:10:42 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:10:42 -0500 Subject: FWD: PDP11 hardware available in Dayton, MN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF136D2.8010903@gmail.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Here's something I found in alt.sys.pdp11. I have no connection to > Bruce Mitchell. Would someone please save this stuff from the scrap heap? Sigh. I'll be passing within ten miles of there a few times this summer - but I don't think there'll be a single time that the van won't already be loaded up to the gills with stuff :-( If that changes for some reason, I'll see what I can do (I've got plenty of dry space for it all!) cheers Jules From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 9 18:56:36 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:56:36 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> <4D413B95-6059-4837-A74D-2C9BD0C40AEC@rachors.com> <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I do not know yet. I am going to pick up the stuff tonight and then I will really know what I have got. George Sent from my iPhone george at rachors.com On Jun 9, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/9/11 6:35 AM, George Rachor wrote: >> Thanks Al, >> >> I think I've managed to get local takers.... >> > > um.. was there any documentation and software? > > From george at rachors.com Thu Jun 9 18:56:36 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2011 16:56:36 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> <4D413B95-6059-4837-A74D-2C9BD0C40AEC@rachors.com> <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I do not know yet. I am going to pick up the stuff tonight and then I will really know what I have got. George Sent from my iPhone george at rachors.com On Jun 9, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/9/11 6:35 AM, George Rachor wrote: >> Thanks Al, >> >> I think I've managed to get local takers.... >> > > um.. was there any documentation and software? > > From jthecman at netscape.net Thu Jun 9 20:08:43 2011 From: jthecman at netscape.net (jthecman at netscape.net) Date: Thu, 09 Jun 2011 21:08:43 -0400 Subject: Computer Move in Utah Message-ID: <8CDF5221350E26A-1484-28F93@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com> Hello The museum has been donated a complete ATEX system with all of it's supporting parts. I will be flying into Salt Lake City either late June 23rd or early June 24th to rent a truck move everything to a storage unit there and we can move it to Houston yet (low funds). If anyone living in the area can help it would be really great. Contact me off list if you can help. Thanks, John From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 10 01:41:20 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 08:41:20 +0200 Subject: DT-03 & DT-07 Message-ID: <9c1dece4fdaca9de266a0d4d0eaf4851.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> During cleanup & preparation for reducing my collection, I came across a small backplane with small flip-chips and marked 'DT-03'. The backplane can be mounted horizontally in a rack. The DT-07 is a single card with 3 berg connectors which apparently go to the 2nd card which is named 'DT-07 connector/terminator'. Anyone know what this is? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 10 02:01:00 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 00:01:00 -0700 Subject: DT-03 & DT-07 In-Reply-To: <9c1dece4fdaca9de266a0d4d0eaf4851.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9c1dece4fdaca9de266a0d4d0eaf4851.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4DF1C12C.7070002@brouhaha.com> E. Groenenberg wrote: > During cleanup& preparation for reducing my collection, I came > a small backplane with small flip-chips and marked 'DT-03'. > The DT-07 is a single card with 3 berg connectors which apparently > go to the 2nd card which is named 'DT-07 connector/terminator'. The DT03 and DT07 are Unibus switches. Useful in larger PDP-11 systems, and for larger VAX systems that support Unibus. From george at rachors.com Fri Jun 10 04:22:44 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 02:22:44 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Intel 286/310 and/or 286 380 systems? In-Reply-To: <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> References: <003d01cc2553$6ef03110$4cd09330$@xs4all.nl> <4DEE9896.8050501@att.net> <001301cc25bc$e6e18340$b4a489c0$@xs4all.nl> <6B60250A-B2B5-4CEF-8F58-CFF9DA566E6A@rachors.com> <4DEF942C.6090502@bitsavers.org> <4D413B95-6059-4837-A74D-2C9BD0C40AEC@rachors.com> <4DF0E29F.8080308@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <54F16CC1-039B-45E0-A450-4737C7A608C8@rachors.com> Sorry Al, Just Hardware... No disc's or manuals. George On Jun 9, 2011, at 8:11 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 6/9/11 6:35 AM, George Rachor wrote: >> Thanks Al, >> >> I think I've managed to get local takers.... >> > > um.. was there any documentation and software? > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jun 10 06:47:16 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:47:16 +1200 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest acquisition: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm I've also added the model to my collections site: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC Terry http://www.classic-computers.org.nz From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jun 10 08:06:14 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 09:06:14 -0400 Subject: Source for RT-11 TECO V36 Message-ID: <4DF216C6.2000809@compsys.to> I have used TECO on and off for 30 years (mostly off for the past 15 years). The latest version that I can find which was released for RT-11 is TECO V36. This version was released with V04.00 of RT-11 in 1980. The TECO command "EO=" confirms that the version is V36. About a year ago, I found some source code for TECO V36 which assembles to V36 when asked via "EO=", but the TECO.SAV file is significantly different from the version released with V04.00 of RT-11 in 1980. The version based on the source code that I found is 51 blocks long and it uses more memory. The version from RT-11 V04.00 is just 50 blocks long and has a much smaller root section. Probably most of the code is the same, just that some of the code that is in the root of the version for which I have the source has been moved to an overlay. Does anyone have or know where I might find the actual source code for TECO V36 that was released with V04.00 of RT-11 in 1980? If it is just almost identical, that would be sufficient since it is usually possible to easily make a few modifications to obtain the identical TECO.SAV when the differences are minor. Often, the differences seem major since they can be the result of a single extra word (plus or minus) which shifts the rest of the code and makes an exact comparison impossible. But those changes are easy to find and correct if the knowledge and experience of what to do is available. Since the TECO V36 released with V04.00 of RT-11 is now 31 years old and I have not heard of any bugs, I have much more confidence in its reliability as opposed to the version for which I have the source code. Jerome Fine From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jun 10 12:10:06 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 12:10:06 -0500 Subject: FWD: PDP11 hardware available in Dayton, MN In-Reply-To: <4DF136D2.8010903@gmail.com> References: <4DF136D2.8010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110610171006.GA3921@n0jcf.net> We hope to have it covered sometime this weekend or next. We don't see a lot of this kind of stuff here in MN very often anymore so you can trust that those of us local, are jumping on it. Chris St. Paul, MN On Thursday (06/09/2011 at 04:10PM -0500), Jules Richardson wrote: > David Griffith wrote: >> >> Here's something I found in alt.sys.pdp11. I have no connection to >> Bruce Mitchell. Would someone please save this stuff from the scrap heap? > > Sigh. I'll be passing within ten miles of there a few times this summer - > but I don't think there'll be a single time that the van won't already be > loaded up to the gills with stuff :-( If that changes for some reason, > I'll see what I can do (I've got plenty of dry space for it all!) > > cheers > > Jules -- Chris Elmquist From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 10 12:52:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 10:52:35 -0700 Subject: New NSA declassifications Message-ID: <4DF1F773.11521.559443@cclist.sydex.com> NSA releases 50K pages of documents. See: http://cryptome.org/0004/nsa-50k-docs.pdf Perusing the list, I see quite a number of IBM 7950 "Harvest" documents that should make for some interesting reading. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 10 13:16:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 19:16:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Jun 10, 11 11:47:16 pm Message-ID: > The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC The ROM PAc as little more than ROMs/EPROMs from waht I rememebr. It should be possible to repair it (I asusme somebody has ROM images of it). You may have noticed that the ROM PAC casings are 8-track tape cartridges, slightly modified. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 10 14:33:57 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 20:33:57 +0100 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com> <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4DF271A5.8090304@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/06/2011 12:47, terry stewart wrote: > Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest acquisition: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm Welcome to the ranks of Sorcerer owners :-) > I've also added the model to my collections site: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm > > The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC Images of the four BASIC ROMs are on my website, and you'll find them also on some other Sorcerer websites such as http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ I think I also have a PCB layout for a ROM-PAC somewhere -- not the original, but one I drafted many years ago to use different EPROMs. However, it's easy enough to re-jumper the sockets in the ROM-PAC for different EPROMs, and more than one listmember has a Sorcerer with a PAC I've repaired that way. The original ROMs are mask ROMs, of course, but Exidy designed the PAC to take various different ICs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 11 00:59:02 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 22:59:02 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P Message-ID: Is it possible to change a 6P into a 6MP by adding a Postscript SIMM? If so do the RAM and PS from a 5MP work in a 6P? Just wondering about 6P I picked up as a spare, as my current Laser is a 5MP (and I like the PostScript capabilities), I figure it's good to know these things ahead of time. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 11 03:14:38 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 01:14:38 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF323EE.5030401@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is it possible to change a 6P into a 6MP by adding a Postscript SIMM? Yes. > If so do the RAM and PS from a 5MP work in a 6P? I think the RAM will work, but unfortunately not the PS. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jun 11 07:16:10 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 00:16:10 +1200 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com><261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> <4DF271A5.8090304@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Hi, Peter and others. Yes, I have an EPROM burner but have never used it. This might be the perfect excuse! Are there any docs on what needs to be rejigged to replace those ROMS? THe software on the tapes was a little flaky so I've just spent the evening getting some software off the Net. I found a collection of machine language programs which don't need the BASIC ROM-PAC to run. I used the MESS emulator to convert these binaries to WAV files I can output through the PC soundcard to the sorcerer. Good times! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 7:33 AM Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer > On 10/06/2011 12:47, terry stewart wrote: >> Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest >> acquisition: >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm > > Welcome to the ranks of Sorcerer owners :-) > >> I've also added the model to my collections site: >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm >> >> The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC > > Images of the four BASIC ROMs are on my website, and you'll find them also > on some other Sorcerer websites such as http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/ > > I think I also have a PCB layout for a ROM-PAC somewhere -- not the > original, but one I drafted many years ago to use different EPROMs. > > However, it's easy enough to re-jumper the sockets in the ROM-PAC for > different EPROMs, and more than one listmember has a Sorcerer with a PAC > I've repaired that way. The original ROMs are mask ROMs, of course, but > Exidy designed the PAC to take various different ICs. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 11 08:12:07 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 14:12:07 +0100 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com><261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> <4DF271A5.8090304@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4DF369A7.2040208@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/06/2011 13:16, terry stewart wrote: > Hi, Peter and others. > > Yes, I have an EPROM burner but have never used it. This might be the > perfect excuse! Are there any docs on what needs to be rejigged to > replace those ROMS? The Sorcerer Technical Manual has the information, but if you don't have a copy you can download it from David Williams' Trailing Edge site. http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/hwref.pdf You want to look at the schematic for the ROM PAC which is on page 43 in the PDF file. Exactly what you need to do depends on your EPROM; I used a 2732 last time (the mask ROMs are each 2K x 8bit, making 8K bytes total). > THe software on the tapes was a little flaky so I've just spent the > evening getting some software off the Net. I found a collection of > machine language programs which don't need the BASIC ROM-PAC to run. I > used the MESS emulator to convert these binaries to WAV files I can > output through the PC soundcard to the sorcerer. Good times! It's a while since I looked for software. I only found a couple of items last time, and one of those was corrupt. Any pointer you can give me? But I've found the Sorcerer is very good at handling audio files, and I regularly use MP3 files of two or three demo programs, fed from my iPod or iPhone headphone jack. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Jun 11 08:27:27 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:27:27 -0400 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: <4DF323EE.5030401@brouhaha.com> References: <4DF323EE.5030401@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4DF36D3F.4030508@atarimuseum.com> I think you'd need to upgrade the font's as well.. I have a 4Plus which I upgraded to a 4MP with a ram upgrade and a Postscript Cartridge plugged into the front slot. I already had a Jet Direct card in it that had besides the 10bt port, an Apple Localtalk port on it, so it was set to work on a localtalk network too.... You need the RAM to support the postscript, but you still need the Postscript as well..... Eric Smith wrote: > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > Is it possible to change a 6P into a 6MP by adding a Postscript SIMM? > > Yes. > > > If so do the RAM and PS from a 5MP work in a 6P? > > I think the RAM will work, but unfortunately not the PS. > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 11 19:59:57 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 17:59:57 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: <4DF36D3F.4030508@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DF323EE.5030401@brouhaha.com> <4DF36D3F.4030508@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DF40F8D.40208@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is it possible to change a 6P into a 6MP by adding a Postscript SIMM? I wrote: > I think the RAM will work, but unfortunately not the PS. Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I think you'd need to upgrade the font's as well.. On the 5P/5MP and 6P/6MP, the base PCL fonts are in the "mainframe" ROM inside the printer, and the base Postscript fonts are in the Postscript SIMM. If you add the appropriate Postscript SIMM to the printer, you'll have the necessary base fonts. You can install font SIMMs as well, but I've never seen them. The font SIMMs work with PCL, but I'm not sure whether Postscript supports them. For Postscript you're far better off installing some RAM SIMMs and downloading any fonts you want to use. Both the 5M/MP and 6M/MP can use the same DRAM SIMMs, but need different Postscript SIMMs, because the 5P/5MP use a 20 MHz MCF5102 ColdFire processor, while the 6P/6MP use a 25 MHz Intel 80960JF processor. The Postscript SIMM for the 5P is the C3152A (service P/N C3152-67901), while the Postscript SIMM for the 6P is the C3987A (service P/N C3987-67901). Either can be found for around $50, though at that price you may be better off buying a newer printer. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 11 22:37:11 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 20:37:11 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: <4DF40F8D.40208@brouhaha.com> References: <4DF323EE.5030401@brouhaha.com> <4DF36D3F.4030508@atarimuseum.com> <4DF40F8D.40208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 5:59 PM -0700 6/11/11, Eric Smith wrote: >Both the 5M/MP and 6M/MP can use the same DRAM SIMMs, but need >different Postscript SIMMs, because the 5P/5MP use a 20 MHz MCF5102 >ColdFire processor, while the 6P/6MP use a 25 MHz Intel 80960JF >processor. The Postscript SIMM for the 5P is the C3152A (service >P/N C3152-67901), while the Postscript SIMM for the 6P is the C3987A >(service P/N C3987-67901). Either can be found for around $50, >though at that price you may be better off buying a newer printer. The 6P is going to be a "ready spare" for the 5MP that I bought new back in '96. If need be I can live without the Postscript, that just makes things difficult for VMS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 12 04:53:17 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 21:53:17 +1200 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com><261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> <4DF271A5.8090304@dunnington.plus.com> <4DF369A7.2040208@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Thanks for that info Pete, yes, I do have the Technical Manual. Here is where I got the software. http://www.sendspace.com/file/1agu8j It's designed mostly for use with MESS but it was easy enough to launder the files through that to get readable WAV files. Cheers Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:12 AM Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer > On 11/06/2011 13:16, terry stewart wrote: >> Hi, Peter and others. >> >> Yes, I have an EPROM burner but have never used it. This might be the >> perfect excuse! Are there any docs on what needs to be rejigged to >> replace those ROMS? > > The Sorcerer Technical Manual has the information, but if you don't have a > copy you can download it from David Williams' Trailing Edge site. > http://www.trailingedge.com/exidy/hwref.pdf > You want to look at the schematic for the ROM PAC which is on page 43 in > the PDF file. Exactly what you need to do depends on your EPROM; I used a > 2732 last time (the mask ROMs are each 2K x 8bit, making 8K bytes total). > >> THe software on the tapes was a little flaky so I've just spent the >> evening getting some software off the Net. I found a collection of >> machine language programs which don't need the BASIC ROM-PAC to run. I >> used the MESS emulator to convert these binaries to WAV files I can >> output through the PC soundcard to the sorcerer. Good times! > > It's a while since I looked for software. I only found a couple of items > last time, and one of those was corrupt. Any pointer you can give me? > But I've found the Sorcerer is very good at handling audio files, and I > regularly use MP3 files of two or three demo programs, fed from my iPod or > iPhone headphone jack. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 05:40:10 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 18:40:10 +0800 Subject: DECserver 90L+ Message-ID: Hi all, I have a DECServer 90L+ that I am trying to use as a terminal server. After some time, I managed to get it powered up and started to look for MOP boot requests. However, the expected, give me a MOP boot image broadcast on the network did not occur. The Ethernet frames that I see give the impression that the DECServer is looking for a specific machine on the network. I am also not getting any output on the first serial port (MMJ to MMJ cable connected to a VT320)[1]. So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( Oh, I am considering it a success so far in that I got it powered up and saw Ethernet traffic from it! [1] I haven't checked my MMJ cable for continuity yet. Many thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jun 12 05:57:11 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 11:57:11 +0100 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Simon Fryer [fryers at gmail.com] wrote: > I have a DECServer 90L+ that I am trying to use as a terminal > server. After some time, I managed to get it powered up and > started to look for MOP boot requests. However, the expected, > give me a MOP boot image broadcast on the network did not > occur. The Ethernet frames that I see give the impression > that the DECServer is looking for a specific machine on the > network. I am also not getting any output on the first serial > port (MMJ to MMJ cable connected to a VT320)[1]. There's (at least) one decserver that has the smarts (such as they are) in ROM and doesn't MOP load (or, at least, doesn't need to ... I don't recall if it is possible to upload newer firmware on demand). I have a feeling that the DS90L+ may be the one. You should be able to plug into any of the ports and hit RETURN (perhaps a few times in quick succession) and have it talk to you. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 06:30:55 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 19:30:55 +0800 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On 12 June 2011 18:57, wrote: > Simon Fryer [fryers at gmail.com] wrote: >> I have a DECServer 90L+ that I am trying to use as a terminal >> server. After some time, I managed to get it powered up and >> started to look for MOP boot requests. However, the expected, >> give me a MOP boot image broadcast on the network did not >> occur. The Ethernet frames that I see give the impression >> that the DECServer is looking for a specific machine on the >> network. I am also not getting any output on the first serial >> port (MMJ to MMJ cable connected to a VT320)[1]. > > There's (at least) one decserver that has the smarts (such as they are) > in ROM and doesn't MOP load (or, at least, doesn't need to ... I don't > recall if it is possible to upload newer firmware on demand). > > I have a feeling that the DS90L+ may be the one. After reading the manual, I think the DS90L+ would appear to be the one that has it all in NVRAM. > You should be able to plug into any of the ports and hit RETURN (perhaps > a few times in quick succession) and have it talk to you. Well, in theory. I have just checked and confirmed that my terminal is setting some voltage and the voltage changes slightly with a couple of hits of the return key. However the serial activity LED on the front of the 90L+ does not seem to blink - which according to the manual, *should* when there is activity on the serial ports. Not knowing the history of this DECServer (I have had it a few years and I can not remember the source) I am not sure if there is a configuration issue, or a hardware issue. I guess it is time to look into it a little more. Thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 06:43:44 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 12:43:44 +0100 Subject: Project for someone? Message-ID: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110611/ap_on_hi_te/us_video_games_quadriplegics -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 08:44:41 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 14:44:41 +0100 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2011 11:40, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on > these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( For a proper factory reset you need a running VMS host with DECnet (hopefully phaseIV) started, then you can hop onto it using MC NCP CONN VIA (ethernet interface) PHYS xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx (MAC address printed on the label on the front) Then SET S(erver) F(actory) Y(es) (from memory :)) The reason you might not be getting output on the VT is because you can dedicate each port to a particular LAT session which is why you're seeing requests for a service name. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 08:49:01 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 21:49:01 +0800 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, On 12 June 2011 19:30, Simon Fryer wrote: [DECServer 90L+ has everything in firmware] > Not knowing the history of this DECServer (I have had it a few years > and I can not remember the source) I am not sure if there is a > configuration issue, or a hardware issue. > > I guess it is time to look into it a little more. I just had a more in depth look at what the DECServer is putting onto the network. First thing seems to be an Ethernet frame of type 0x3433 with the terminal servers Ethernet address in both the source and destination fields. I am guessing this first frame is part of the POST. Second are some Ethernet frames of type 0x6002. According to a quick bit of googling (easier than looking it up in a book - bad Simon) this is MOP remote console action. So, there does seem to be some internal configuration that needs to be optimised away. Does anyone have a good incantation for the return to factory settings? Many thanks. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 08:58:20 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 21:58:20 +0800 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On 12 June 2011 21:44, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 12/06/2011 11:40, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > >> So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on >> these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( > > For a proper factory reset you need a running VMS host with DECnet > (hopefully phaseIV) started, then you can hop onto it using > > MC NCP CONN VIA (ethernet interface) PHYS xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx (MAC address > printed on the label on the front) > > Then > > SET > S(erver) > F(actory) > Y(es) > > (from memory :)) Ahhh. The incantation. Many thanks. I was hoping that I didn't require a VMS box. Putting together a box to run VMS is on my todo list. Just not in the short term future. I guess I should get the aphas powered up to see if the same thing can be done with Tru64 or if it is only something supported by VMS. > The reason you might not be getting output on the VT is because you can > dedicate each port to a particular LAT session which is why you're seeing > requests for a service name. Or that the terminal lines are configured off. Many thanks. I have somewhere to start from now. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 09:16:39 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 15:16:39 +0100 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2011 14:58, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > I was hoping that I didn't require a VMS box. Putting together a box > to run VMS is on my todo list. Just not in the short term future. I > guess I should get the aphas powered up to see if the same thing can > be done with Tru64 or if it is only something supported by VMS. You can do it from Tru64 if you're running DECnet/OSI but I've not tried that for many many years. Pity it's not a 90TL you've got because they have a reset button on the front, simples :) >> The reason you might not be getting output on the VT is because you can >> dedicate each port to a particular LAT session which is why you're seeing >> requests for a service name. > > Or that the terminal lines are configured off. You can't turn them off, just assign them a LAT service name. Or set them as printers of course. > Many thanks. I have somewhere to start from now. Get an Alpha running, you know you want to ;) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 09:26:34 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 22:26:34 +0800 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, On 12 June 2011 22:16, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 12/06/2011 14:58, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > >> I was hoping that I didn't require a VMS box. Putting together a box >> to run VMS is on my todo list. Just not in the short term future. I >> guess I should get the aphas powered up to see if the same thing can >> be done with Tru64 or if it is only something supported by VMS. > > You can do it from Tru64 if you're running DECnet/OSI but I've not tried > that for many many years. Pity it's not a 90TL you've got because they have > a reset button on the front, simples :) :) Yes. I first downloaded the manual for the 90TL and then checked the front again... Bummer! >>> The reason you might not be getting output on the VT is because you can >>> dedicate each port to a particular LAT session which is why you're seeing >>> requests for a service name. >> >> Or that the terminal lines are configured off. > > You can't turn them off, just assign them a LAT service name. Or set them as > printers of course. Ahhh. Okay. >> Many thanks. I have somewhere to start from now. > > Get an Alpha running, you know you want to ;) Mmmmm. Real hardware. The Alphas were next on the list. I just needed something to put the serial consoles into! :) Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sun Jun 12 11:57:17 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:57:17 +0100 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2011 15:26, "Simon Fryer" wrote: >> You can do it from Tru64 if you're running DECnet/OSI but I've not tried >> that for many many years. Pity it's not a 90TL you've got because they have >> a reset button on the front, simples :) > > :) Yes. I first downloaded the manual for the 90TL and then checked > the front again... Bummer! Arr, the 90TL is a 'real' server that's essentially a condensed DECserver700-16 which talks LAT/TELNET/3270 etc. The 90l+ was purely a reduced cost LAT server with many limitations, but for a low volume office it was perfect. > Mmmmm. Real hardware. The Alphas were next on the list. I just needed > something to put the serial consoles into! :) You've got a VT to get them running, but bear in mind the 90L+ doesn't do 'reverse' connections for consoles - you need a TL for that which will let you set up telnet listeners on each port. All you can do with the L+ is create LAT sessions TO an alpha, not the other way round. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jun 12 16:34:57 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 14:34:57 -0700 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/12/11 6:44 AM, "Adrian Graham" wrote: > On 12/06/2011 11:40, "Simon Fryer" wrote: > >> So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on >> these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( > > For a proper factory reset you need a running VMS host with DECnet > (hopefully phaseIV) started, then you can hop onto it using Can the VMS host be an emulated one? > > MC NCP CONN VIA (ethernet interface) PHYS xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx (MAC address > printed on the label on the front) > > Then > > SET > S(erver) > F(actory) > Y(es) > > (from memory :)) > > The reason you might not be getting output on the VT is because you can > dedicate each port to a particular LAT session which is why you're seeing > requests for a service name. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 12 16:40:51 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:40:51 -0400 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF53263.7000609@neurotica.com> On 6/12/11 5:34 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>> So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on >>> these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( >> >> For a proper factory reset you need a running VMS host with DECnet >> (hopefully phaseIV) started, then you can hop onto it using > > Can the VMS host be an emulated one? (sorry for jumping in) It can, but the networking has to be functional. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jun 12 16:57:23 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 14:57:23 -0700 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: <4DF53263.7000609@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On 6/12/11 2:40 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On 6/12/11 5:34 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>>> So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on >>>> these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( >>> >>> For a proper factory reset you need a running VMS host with DECnet >>> (hopefully phaseIV) started, then you can hop onto it using >> >> Can the VMS host be an emulated one? > > (sorry for jumping in) > > It can, but the networking has to be functional. > > -Dave No problem :) I just figured that many of the geeks out here are more likely to be able to whip up a virtual machine quicker than actual iron... And figured it wouldn't hurt to ask :) From doug at doughq.com Fri Jun 10 08:05:06 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:05:06 +1000 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com> <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Awesome! I have an Exidy Sorcerer - When it was given to me, it was very dead. It didn't take much fault finding to identify the +12Volts sitting on the A13 line (from memory). From there, the cause was identified - somebody had bent the cartridge connector pins to make better contact - that they did - with the pins on the opposite edge of the connector. It worked a treat while a cart was installed - as soon as it was powered up without a cart.... POP! Every component on the A13 line had to be replaced - the hardest to get was the line driver on the 50 pin interface connector. Be careful not to tension the ROM pack lines...... But - the good side of the story is that the system works a treat - I love it! Doug On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:47 PM, terry stewart wrote: > Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest acquisition: > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm > > I've also added the model to my collections site: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm > > The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC > > Terry > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz > > > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From doug at doughq.com Fri Jun 10 08:08:39 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 10 Jun 2011 23:08:39 +1000 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com> <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Oh - I forgot... I may have a RAM pack - I will have a look on the weekend. If I have one - I will happily dump a ROM for you. Doug On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Awesome! > > I have an Exidy Sorcerer - When it was given to me, it was very dead. > > It didn't take much fault finding to identify the +12Volts sitting on the > A13 line (from memory). From there, the cause was identified - somebody had > bent the cartridge connector pins to make better contact - that they did - > with the pins on the opposite edge of the connector. It worked a treat > while a cart was installed - as soon as it was powered up without a cart.... > POP! > > Every component on the A13 line had to be replaced - the hardest to get was > the line driver on the 50 pin interface connector. > > Be careful not to tension the ROM pack lines...... > > But - the good side of the story is that the system works a treat - I love > it! > > Doug > > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:47 PM, terry stewart wrote: > >> Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest acquisition: >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm >> >> I've also added the model to my collections site: >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm >> >> The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC >> >> Terry >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz >> >> >> > > > -- > Doug Jackson > VK1ZDJ > http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks > http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities > > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From pinball at telus.net Sat Jun 11 11:53:15 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 11 Jun 2011 09:53:15 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF39D7B.9020908@telus.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is it possible to change a 6P into a 6MP by adding a Postscript SIMM? > If so do the RAM and PS from a 5MP work in a 6P? Just wondering about > 6P I picked up as a spare, as my current Laser is a 5MP (and I like > the PostScript capabilities), I figure it's good to know these things > ahead of time. > > Zane > > > Google search found the answer: http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?admit=109447626+1307811036309+28353475&threadId=1082454 "Remove the left side cover. There is a Postscript SIMM module there. Remove that Module and install it in the LJ 6MP and you are set." "The LJ 6MP will support mac and Linux/Unix system right out of the box. The LJ 6MP will also do better with Adobe. As you noticed, the LJ 6P has 2 MB RAM vs LJ 6MP has 3MB." John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 04:18:18 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 05:18:18 -0400 Subject: Need Wang VS6230 Boot Diskettes Message-ID: The Rhode Island Computer Museum has a Wang 6230 CPU in a VS5700 10-slot chassis along with four SCSI controllers and terminal controllers. That probably makes it close to a VS6230. The model for GENEDIT is a 6128. https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/wang-vs6230 The system was donated without the internal SCSI drive. We have plenty of SCSI disks that we can install, but we don't have the VS boot floppy or disk initialization utility for this system. Does anyone know where the diskettes for this system could be located? -- Michael Thompson From bdamer at digitalspace.com Sun Jun 12 17:47:37 2011 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 15:47:37 -0700 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> Team if anyone on this list has a working ASR/KSR-33 they would like to donate for an excellent exhibit at the Exploratorium, please contact Ron below, see note... Your Name: Ron Hipschman Your Email address: ronh at exploratorium.edu Do you guys have a functioning RS-232 teletytpe (ASR-33 or KSR-33) kicking around that might want to be donated to the Exploratorium for a possible exhibit? Ron Hipschman From ss at allegro.com Sun Jun 12 19:32:07 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:32:07 -0700 Subject: New NSA declassifications In-Reply-To: <4DF1F773.11521.559443@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DF1F773.11521.559443@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Re: On Jun 10, 2011, at 10:52 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > NSA releases 50K pages of documents. > > See: http://cryptome.org/0004/nsa-50k-docs.pdf > > Perusing the list, I see quite a number of IBM 7950 "Harvest" > documents that should make for some interesting reading. Have you succeeded in accessing any of the 7950 documents? Most seem to have links like: http://pzvalentino.corp.s.nsa:12080/pls/airs/AIRS.AIRSForm?V_ACCESSION_NUMBER=15883 ...which doesn't work for me. thanks, Stan From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Jun 12 19:48:13 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 02:48:13 +0200 Subject: PDP-10 KI10 front panel auction Message-ID: <20110613004813.GA8127@Update.UU.SE> Hi Did anyone here get this? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160597433178 I was outbid, but I'm a bit surprised at the low price, this must be a hens teeth. Cheers, Pontus. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun Jun 12 19:59:25 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 19:59:25 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 KI10 front panel auction In-Reply-To: <20110613004813.GA8127@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110613004813.GA8127@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: wow it went up another 400 from when i saw it at 5:30 On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > Did anyone here get this? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160597433178 > > I was outbid, but I'm a bit surprised at the low price, this must be a hens > teeth. > > Cheers, > Pontus. > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 12 20:51:15 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 18:51:15 -0700 Subject: New NSA declassifications In-Reply-To: References: <4DF1F773.11521.559443@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DF50AA3.8995.1F981CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jun 2011 at 17:32, Stan Sieler wrote: > Have you succeeded in accessing any of the 7950 documents? > Most seem to have links like: > > http://pzvalentino.corp.s.nsa:12080/pls/airs/AIRS.AIRSForm?V_ACCESSION > _NUMBER=15883 It was my understanding that these documents weren't necessarily maintained online, but were available at the National Archives at College Park. They have their own hoops for you to jump through, but you might drop them a note to see what the status of the documents that you're interested in. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 12 21:03:55 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 19:03:55 -0700 Subject: HP LaserJet 6P In-Reply-To: <4DF39D7B.9020908@telus.net> References: <4DF39D7B.9020908@telus.net> Message-ID: <4DF5700B.1030005@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is it possible to change a 6P into a 6MP by adding a Postscript SIMM? > If so do the RAM and PS from a 5MP work in a 6P? Just wondering about > 6P I picked up as a spare, as my current Laser is a 5MP (and I like > the PostScript capabilities), I figure it's good to know these things > ahead of time. John Robertson wrote: > Google search found the answer: > > http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?admit=109447626+1307811036309+28353475&threadId=1082454 > > > "Remove the left side cover. There is a Postscript SIMM module there. > Remove that Module and install it in the LJ 6MP and you are set." Google search only found the answer to Zane's first question, but not the second. That page says that you can take a Postscript SIMM from a 6MP and put it in a 6P (turning the former effectively into a 6P, and the later into a 6MP). That WILL NOT WORK when the donor is a 5MP and the recipient is a 6P, as their Postscript SIMMs are NOT compatible. > "The LJ 6MP will support mac and Linux/Unix system right out of the > box. The LJ 6MP will also do better with Adobe. As you noticed, the LJ > 6P has 2 MB RAM vs LJ 6MP has 3MB." > The 5MP and 6MP have 1MB more RAM than the 5P and 6P because there is 1MB of RAM on the Postscript SIMM. Exclusive of the Postscript SIMM, the corresponsing P and MP printer models are identical. The "M" in the model number indicates that the Postscript SIMM was preinstalled at the factory. When you see a P or MP in the field, you can't count on the presence or absence of the M to mean anything, because the printer may have been upgraded or downgraded in the field. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 12 21:14:49 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 19:14:49 -0700 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> On 06/12/2011 03:47 PM, Bruce Damer wrote: > Team if anyone on this list has a working ASR/KSR-33 they would like > to donate for an excellent exhibit at the Exploratorium, please > contact Ron below, see note... > > Your Name: Ron Hipschman > Your Email address: ronh at exploratorium.edu > > Do you guys have a functioning RS-232 teletytpe (ASR-33 or KSR-33) > kicking around that might want to be donated to the Exploratorium for > a possible exhibit? > > Ron Hipschman > I've seen a lot of model 33 Teletypes, and I've never yet seen one that is RS-232. They are almost all current loop. I don't recall seeing any mention of an RS-232 option in the manuals, although that may have existed as a third-party modification. IIRC, the model 40, 42, and 43 machines offered RS-232. The 40 is a CRT terminal with an optional printer, and the 43 and 43 are 5-level and ASCII (respectively) versions of a compact dot matrix printing terminal. From ronh at exo.net Mon Jun 13 00:10:38 2011 From: ronh at exo.net (Ron Hipschman) Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 22:10:38 -0700 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> References: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <87AE9AE0-F17F-420D-BD2C-10EE3743A3E8@exo.net> Thanks for the announcement. I think I may have a current-loop to RS232 dongle somewhere around here (or I could make one...) Ron -- Ron Hipschman Exploratorium 3601 Lyon Street San Francisco, CA 94123 http://www.exploratorium.edu On Jun 12, 2011, at 7:14 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On 06/12/2011 03:47 PM, Bruce Damer wrote: >> Team if anyone on this list has a working ASR/KSR-33 they would like to donate for an excellent exhibit at the Exploratorium, please contact Ron below, see note... >> >> Your Name: Ron Hipschman >> Your Email address: ronh at exploratorium.edu >> >> Do you guys have a functioning RS-232 teletytpe (ASR-33 or KSR-33) kicking around that might want to be donated to the Exploratorium for a possible exhibit? >> >> Ron Hipschman >> > I've seen a lot of model 33 Teletypes, and I've never yet seen one that is RS-232. They are almost all current loop. I don't recall seeing any mention of an RS-232 option in the manuals, although that may have existed as a third-party modification. > > IIRC, the model 40, 42, and 43 machines offered RS-232. The 40 is a CRT terminal with an optional printer, and the 43 and 43 are 5-level and ASCII (respectively) versions of a compact dot matrix printing terminal. From tsw-cc at johana.com Mon Jun 13 03:12:05 2011 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 01:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <96855.7832.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message: 13 Date: Sun, 12 Jun 2011 19:14:49 -0700 From: Eric Smith Subject: Re: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: ronh at exploratorium.edu Message-ID: <4DF57299.4090403 at brouhaha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed On 06/12/2011 19:14:39, Eric Smith wrote: >On 06/12/2011 03:47 PM, Bruce Damer wrote: >> Team if anyone on this list has a working ASR/KSR-33 they would like >> to donate for an excellent exhibit at the Exploratorium, please >> contact Ron below, see note... >> >> Your Name: Ron Hipschman >> Your Email address: ronh at exploratorium.edu >> >> Do you guys have a functioning RS-232 teletytpe (ASR-33 or KSR-33) >> kicking around that might want to be donated to the Exploratorium for >> a possible exhibit? >> >> Ron Hipschman >> >I've seen a lot of model 33 Teletypes, and I've never yet seen one that >is RS-232. They are almost all current loop. I don't recall seeing any >mention of an RS-232 option in the manuals, although that may have >existed as a third-party modification. >IIRC, the model 40, 42, and 43 machines offered RS-232. The 40 is a CRT >terminal with an optional printer, and the 43 and 43 are 5-level and >ASCII (respectively) versions of a compact dot matrix printing terminal. Oh ye of little faith. Tymshare made LOTS of RS232 capable ASR-33's. They had a mod kit that they used along with the OEM call control unit. It came in several models. The early one (circa 1968) had a small transformer (to make the proper voltages) and a control board with a relay to turn on the motor when CD (pin 8) became true. It preserved the Local/Off/Line switch function (the rotary switch on the call control unit). A later version used push buttons on the cover plate that goes over the CCU section of the ASR/KSR-33. They replaced the Line/Off/Local rotary switch on the "front panel" that was subject to knob breakage (usually a panicked service call). The front escutcheon that had the hole for the Line/Off/Local switch was replaced with a nice Tymshare enhanced logo snap on plate that looked nice. My (at the moment lost or trashed) ASR-33 I did my own RS-232 conversion. It consisted of taking taps off of the transformer of the CCU (to get the other voltage) and including a nice solid state relay to do the "Carrier Detect" function for motor control. It required only a couple of transistors for the receive (RS232 to 20ma CL) and resistor tree for the other direction. Having a RS-232 capable ASR33 was a real nice thing to have when most of the connectors were DB-25's. On another note: I do have a couple of old DECWRITERS. An LA-30 (modified for lower case) and a larger wide carriage one that I don't remember the model number (upper and lower case as well). Ah yes, fun from the past.... From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 13 04:04:08 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 02:04:08 -0700 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <96855.7832.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <96855.7832.qm@web112416.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DF5D288.60501@brouhaha.com> Tom Watson wrote: > Oh ye of little faith. Tymshare made LOTS of RS232 capable ASR-33's. Like I said, a third party modification: > I don't recall seeing any > mention of an RS-232 option in the manuals, although that may have > existed as a third-party modification. Eric From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Jun 13 04:11:05 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 21:11:05 +1200 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com><4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com><261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <314AA5328E064C2B916D479A9B7056FE@massey.ac.nz> Hi Doug, 12 V on the A 13 line. Ouch!! > I may have a RAM pack - I will have a look on the weekend. > > If I have one - I will happily dump a ROM for you. Thanks very much. When you say RAM PACK do you mean the BASIC ROM PAC? I've got the images for those thanks. I just have to figure out how to burn EPROMS and jumper things to fit. All new territory for me. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Jackson" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 1:08 AM Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer > Oh - I forgot... > > > Doug > > > > On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > >> Awesome! >> >> I have an Exidy Sorcerer - When it was given to me, it was very dead. >> >> It didn't take much fault finding to identify the +12Volts sitting on the >> A13 line (from memory). From there, the cause was identified - somebody >> had >> bent the cartridge connector pins to make better contact - that they >> did - >> with the pins on the opposite edge of the connector. It worked a treat >> while a cart was installed - as soon as it was powered up without a >> cart.... >> POP! >> >> Every component on the A13 line had to be replaced - the hardest to get >> was >> the line driver on the 50 pin interface connector. >> >> Be careful not to tension the ROM pack lines...... >> >> But - the good side of the story is that the system works a treat - I >> love >> it! >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:47 PM, terry stewart >> wrote: >> >>> Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest >>> acquisition: >>> >>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm >>> >>> I've also added the model to my collections site: >>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm >>> >>> The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC >>> >>> Terry >>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Jackson >> VK1ZDJ >> http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks >> http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities >> >> > > > -- > Doug Jackson > VK1ZDJ > http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks > http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 07:24:14 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:24:14 +0100 Subject: Cambridge Z88 Message-ID: Possibly a bit modern for folks on here... ;?) I've just bought 1 cheaply on eBay (under ?15) and am considering a 2nd as a cheap way to get some additional storage for it. The device has 3 proprietary card slots, 2 for RAM or Flash, 1 for an EPROM. I was wondering if anyone had devised some device to let owners use much cheaper modern Flash storage in 'em, such as CF or SD cards? Given that they've been interfaced to Spectrums and so on these days... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 13 08:31:50 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 06:31:50 -0700 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> References: , <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > From: bdamer at digitalspace.com > > Team if anyone on this list has a working ASR/KSR-33 they would like > to donate for an excellent exhibit at the Exploratorium, please > contact Ron below, see note... > > Your Name: Ron Hipschman > Your Email address: ronh at exploratorium.edu > > Do you guys have a functioning RS-232 teletytpe (ASR-33 or KSR-33) > kicking around that might want to be donated to the Exploratorium for > a possible exhibit? > > Ron Hipschman > Hi First, I'm sure the Exploratorium has a work shop that can create RS232 converts without much problem. I wonder what they want with them. While these machine are relatively rugged, they won't hold up to the typical use of those that got to the exploritorium. Erik klein had his setup with an Altar to punch out peoples names on paper tape ( banner style not ASCII ) at the Make Faire. The punch would periodically jam, requiring someone to clear it. I can imaging the pounding some would give it if it locked up without someone there to watch it all the time. Dwight From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 13 13:20:33 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 11:20:33 -0700 Subject: FS: HP iPAQ H1910 with Dyalog's Pocket APL Message-ID: <9E89765E-84E9-43C7-B4E2-8BA8F4A8C007@allegro.com> Hi, I have an HP iPAQ H1910 (almost classic :) for sale: $50 plus postage. Includes: Working HP iPAQ H1910 (Pocket PC, with PocketPC 2002 Pro) (has Outlook, Pocket Excel, Pocket Word). Comes with A/C adapter, stylus, and an HP pouch (probably not the original/correct pouch) No box or manuals. Dyalog's Pocket APL, installed (was legitimately purchased and installed via download, hence no Dyalog media) (code date probably late 2003, and is probably 10.0.3) Synch/charge cable Has a screen protector installed. Condition: very good (nearly unused), except for minor scotch tape residue on the back, and one minor scratch on back. Stan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 13 13:28:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 11:28:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <87AE9AE0-F17F-420D-BD2C-10EE3743A3E8@exo.net> References: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> <87AE9AE0-F17F-420D-BD2C-10EE3743A3E8@exo.net> Message-ID: <20110613111631.Q3204@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 12 Jun 2011, Ron Hipschman wrote: > Thanks for the announcement. I think I may have a current-loop to RS232 > dongle somewhere around here (or I could make one...) OR, the 5150/5160 "Asynchronous Communications Card" supported both RS232 AND Current Loop. Yes, the 8250 won't handle current high speeds, but how fast are you going to drive an ASR-33? OR, find out just what they actually have in mind! Do they want an ASR-33, because it is "RETRO" looking? Or are they looking for a printer that can survive the kind of abuse that kids are capable of? (YES, that is a MAJOR issue for Exploratorium) Is it expected to be returned intact? WHY are they looking for an RS-232? Because it is easier to interface to than current loop? Or, because they want something that can work at the end of a mile of wire? Are they looking for ASCII? or "Baudot" (inaccurate name)? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 13 13:17:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:17:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: from "Doug Jackson" at Jun 10, 11 11:05:06 pm Message-ID: > > Awesome! > > I have an Exidy Sorcerer - When it was given to me, it was very dead. > > It didn't take much fault finding to identify the +12Volts sitting on the > A13 line (from memory). From there, the cause was identified - somebody had Ouch #1 > bent the cartridge connector pins to make better contact - that they did - > with the pins on the opposite edge of the connector. It worked a treat > while a cart was installed - as soon as it was powered up without a cart.... > POP! Ouch #2. Still not as bad as the chap [1] I once knew who pulled boards one at a time and retensioned the edge connectors in am HP9810 machien _with the power on_. He eneded up shoring assrted power rails to TTL logic signals. Alas at that time I didn't know as much about the 9810 as I do now, so I couldn't help him mich. [1] Believe-it-or-not, he volunteered and was accepted to do restoration work at a local museum. Without wanting to restart that flame war, I am sure people like this have very much skewed my judgement. > the line driver on the 50 pin interface connector. > > Be careful not to tension the ROM pack lines...... THere are, of course, edge conenctors that are designed to short betwene the sides when the PCB is removed. One common place to find one is the option connector in a VT100. It intercepts the RS232 signals. So with no board plugged in, the external connector is linked to the RS232 drivers/receivers of the terminal logic, but an option board cna grab the data, interpret it, feed only what it wants to to the terminal, etc. > > But - the good side of the story is that the system works a treat - I love > it! I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt side of the S100 expansion unit... -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jun 13 13:44:42 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:44:42 +0100 Subject: DECserver 90L+ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 12/06/2011 22:57, "Geoffrey Reed" wrote: > On 6/12/11 2:40 PM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On 6/12/11 5:34 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: >>>>> So, first question. Does anyone know how to do a factory reset on >>>>> these. The operating manual isn't much help. :( >>>> >>>> For a proper factory reset you need a running VMS host with DECnet >>>> (hopefully phaseIV) started, then you can hop onto it using >>> >>> Can the VMS host be an emulated one? >> >> (sorry for jumping in) >> >> It can, but the networking has to be functional. >> >> -Dave > > > No problem :) I just figured that many of the geeks out here are more > likely to be able to whip up a virtual machine quicker than actual iron... > And figured it wouldn't hurt to ask :) That's a good point actually, I never think of it as I have VAXen and Alphas easily available but something like Personal Alpha should do it as it has proper networking. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 13 13:39:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 19:39:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 12, 11 07:14:49 pm Message-ID: > I've seen a lot of model 33 Teletypes, and I've never yet seen one that IIRc, the Data Dynamics 390 was the mechamsim from a Model 33 ASR (icluding keuyboard and reader, fitted into a new casing, and with new electroncis. I think some versions of that had RS232 compatibility. But of course it's not a true Model 33 and doesn't look like one. One thing, though... There were Model 33s with modems in the stand. What interface was used to said modem? Rs232 would be 'obvious' (and therefore likely to be wrong :-)) > is RS-232. They are almost all current loop. I don't recall seeing any > mention of an RS-232 option in the manuals, although that may have > existed as a third-party modification. As, of coruse did/do currnet loop <-> RS232 interfaces. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 13 14:22:52 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 14:22:52 -0500 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: References: <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110613192252.GO25205@n0jcf.net> On Monday (06/13/2011 at 07:39PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > One thing, though... There were Model 33s with modems in the stand. What > interface was used to said modem? Rs232 would be 'obvious' (and therefore > likely to be wrong :-)) yes... wrong ;-) At least for one datapoint, I have an Anderson-Jacobson branded ASR-33 which has an AJ 300 baud acoustic coupler built into the right side of the '33 where the dialer (for TWX) was usually placed. This modem plugs into an internal MOLEX connector at the back of the '33 and talks on the 20mA loop directly. No RS232 involved. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 15:56:24 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:56:24 -0400 Subject: Booting OpenVMS/VAX from OpenVMS/Integrity Message-ID: <4DF67978.6050207@gmail.com> Is it possible to clusterboot OpenVMS/VAX 7.2/3 from OpenVMS/Integrity 8.2? Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 13 16:00:24 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 14:00:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Booting OpenVMS/VAX from OpenVMS/Integrity In-Reply-To: <4DF67978.6050207@gmail.com> References: <4DF67978.6050207@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't know about V7.3, BUT, I'm pretty sure the answer is no for V7.2. IIRC, you can cluster OpenVMS/VAX V7.3 with OpenVMS/Ia64 V8.2, though I don't remember if it's supported. Zane On Mon, 13 Jun 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Is it possible to clusterboot OpenVMS/VAX 7.2/3 from OpenVMS/Integrity 8.2? > > Peace... Sridhar > From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Jun 13 16:11:38 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 16:11:38 -0500 Subject: MAINDEC for Alpha? Message-ID: <87B6E91E-31ED-49B8-B3D3-52E6B5CC692D@lunar-tokyo.net> Is there something like MAINDEC for Alpha? I have an AS1000 that randomly goes catatonic and I'd like to try to narrow down what's going on. It will do it shortly after boot, usually within 15 minutes, and won't run for longer than an hour at most. Sometimes it hangs hard and must be power-cycled, sometimes it crashes with random messages. The SRM diagnostics say nothing is wrong, even when run for very long loops. From ss at allegro.com Mon Jun 13 19:31:36 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:31:36 -0700 Subject: FS: HP iPAQ H1910 with Dyalog's Pocket APL References: <9E89765E-84E9-43C7-B4E2-8BA8F4A8C007@allegro.com> Message-ID: <82972BBE-EE0C-4DB3-91E0-27B5C7D48A68@allegro.com> Hi, Sorry for sending this to the wrong list earlier (cctech) I have an HP iPAQ H1910 (almost classic :) for sale: $50 plus postage. Includes: Working HP iPAQ H1910 (Pocket PC, with PocketPC 2002 Pro) (has Outlook, Pocket Excel, Pocket Word). Comes with A/C adapter, stylus, and an HP pouch (probably not the original/correct pouch) No box or manuals. Dyalog's Pocket APL, installed (was legitimately purchased and installed via download, hence no Dyalog media) (code date probably late 2003, and is probably 10.0.3) Synch/charge cable Has a screen protector installed. Condition: very good (nearly unused), except for minor scotch tape residue on the back, and one minor scratch on back. Stan From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 13 20:54:21 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:54:21 -0500 Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? Message-ID: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> A couple of the items we "saved" this weekend from the garage in MN included both an RX01 and an RX02 floppy system. Unfortunately, the mice got to the RX02 before we did and really had quite the palacial estate inside the cardboard box with foam packing that held the unit. Needless to say, everything that comes out of a mouse pretty much covered this drive system. Mouse effluent #1 turned the whole thing to #2. It looks to be a total loss. However, the RX01, in another box, was tightly wrapped in plastic and appears to have survived. Also obtained were a spare set of RX02 "formatter" boards, which are the electronics that go in the chassis and sit above the drives. Does anyone know if a pair of RX01 drives and power supply can be converted to an RX02 by just changing the formatter boards in the chassis? Were the drives themselves different? or did they get to double density by just changing the formatter? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 14 01:21:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 02:21:28 -0400 Subject: MAINDEC for Alpha? In-Reply-To: <87B6E91E-31ED-49B8-B3D3-52E6B5CC692D@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <87B6E91E-31ED-49B8-B3D3-52E6B5CC692D@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4DF6FDE8.4090308@neurotica.com> On 6/13/11 5:11 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > Is there something like MAINDEC for Alpha? > I have an AS1000 that randomly goes catatonic and I'd like to try to narrow down what's going on. > It will do it shortly after boot, usually within 15 minutes, and won't run for longer than an hour at most. > Sometimes it hangs hard and must be power-cycled, sometimes it crashes with random messages. > The SRM diagnostics say nothing is wrong, even when run for very long loops. I can't help you with your specific question, but as far as general info about the AS1000, if you find yourself spending too much time on it, trash it and get something like an AS4100 to replace it. The AS1000 is one of the crappiest, flakiest machines I've ever seen come out of DEC. I've owned several, and every one of them ended up giving me problems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From doug at doughq.com Mon Jun 13 05:29:38 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 20:29:38 +1000 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <314AA5328E064C2B916D479A9B7056FE@massey.ac.nz> References: <201106081809.p58I9dfI001651@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> <4DF046C9.7070405@tx.rr.com> <261FF49A1551482CBDB8E38E2DFF23F8@massey.ac.nz> <314AA5328E064C2B916D479A9B7056FE@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Ahh - sorry about that - I meant ROM pack. It is great that you have the images - now you just have to wrestle with the eprom programmer :-) Doug On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 7:11 PM, terry stewart wrote: > Hi Doug, > > 12 V on the A 13 line. Ouch!! > > > I may have a RAM pack - I will have a look on the weekend. >> >> If I have one - I will happily dump a ROM for you. >> > > Thanks very much. When you say RAM PACK do you mean the BASIC ROM PAC? > I've got the images for those thanks. I just have to figure out how to burn > EPROMS and jumper things to fit. All new territory for me. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Doug Jackson" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 1:08 AM > > Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer > > > Oh - I forgot... >> >> >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 11:05 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: >> >> Awesome! >>> >>> I have an Exidy Sorcerer - When it was given to me, it was very dead. >>> >>> It didn't take much fault finding to identify the +12Volts sitting on the >>> A13 line (from memory). From there, the cause was identified - somebody >>> had >>> bent the cartridge connector pins to make better contact - that they did >>> - >>> with the pins on the opposite edge of the connector. It worked a treat >>> while a cart was installed - as soon as it was powered up without a >>> cart.... >>> POP! >>> >>> Every component on the A13 line had to be replaced - the hardest to get >>> was >>> the line driver on the 50 pin interface connector. >>> >>> Be careful not to tension the ROM pack lines...... >>> >>> But - the good side of the story is that the system works a treat - I >>> love >>> it! >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jun 10, 2011 at 9:47 PM, terry stewart >> >wrote: >>> >>> Some on this list might be interested to read about my latest >>>> acquisition: >>>> >>>> >>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-08-sorcerer-acquisition.htm >>>> >>>> I've also added the model to my collections site: >>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/collection/exidy-sorcerer.htm >>>> >>>> The only thing to do now is to replace or repair the BASIC ROM-PAC >>>> >>>> Terry >>>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Doug Jackson >>> VK1ZDJ >>> http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks >>> http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- >> Doug Jackson >> VK1ZDJ >> http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks >> http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities >> >> > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Mon Jun 13 06:56:01 2011 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 07:56:01 -0400 Subject: Exploratorium looking 4 working ASR-33 or KSR In-Reply-To: <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> References: <201106122252.p5CMqkPH001949@billy.ezwind.net> <4DF57299.4090403@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: RS-232 on an ASR-33 or KSR-33 was a third party option. Though, if you have an otherwise normal '33 with pedestal you could cram a current loop/RS232 converter into the pedestal. The Model 40 printer is probably almost totally unusable now, as many of them have had the print band disintegrate over time resulting in type pellets all over the innards of the printer. Also, if the teletype machines are to be run for very long stretches of time over many days and weeks. I would suggest using a 35 machine. It's an unstoppable force in terms of ASCII machines. (Basically it was the 28 mechanism adapted for ASCII.) Also, to what are the Teletype machines being connected? In most cases of the machine being connected to a classic computer; the computer itself expects to see the Teletype as a current-loop device. (At least in terms of machines that were made to talk with teletypes as terminals.) If the machines are being connected together, I believe one can get away with hooking them to one another, no need for current loop conversion. Cheers to you. Christian On 12 June 2011 22:14, Eric Smith wrote: > On 06/12/2011 03:47 PM, Bruce Damer wrote: >> >> Team if anyone on this list has a working ASR/KSR-33 they would like to >> donate for an excellent exhibit at the Exploratorium, please contact Ron >> below, see note... >> >> Your Name: Ron Hipschman >> Your Email address: ronh at exploratorium.edu >> >> Do you guys have a functioning RS-232 teletytpe (ASR-33 or KSR-33) kicking >> around that might want to be donated to the Exploratorium for a possible >> exhibit? >> >> Ron Hipschman >> > I've seen a lot of model 33 Teletypes, and I've never yet seen one that is > RS-232. They are almost all current loop. ?I don't recall seeing any mention > of an RS-232 option in the manuals, although that may have existed as a > third-party modification. > > IIRC, the model 40, 42, and 43 machines offered RS-232. ?The 40 is a CRT > terminal with an optional printer, and the 43 and 43 are 5-level and ASCII > (respectively) versions of a compact dot matrix printing terminal. > > From doug at doughq.com Mon Jun 13 16:45:48 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:45:48 +1000 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Woot! I don't have the S100 expansion unit for the scorcerer. I do however have a number of unpopulated S100 cards to allow me to make a complete S100 system one day - I just need to get a 4 - 8 slot backplane for less than the stupid amount that people on Ebay are charging..... Take care :-) Doug On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 4:17 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Awesome! > > > > I have an Exidy Sorcerer - When it was given to me, it was very dead. > > > > It didn't take much fault finding to identify the +12Volts sitting on the > > A13 line (from memory). From there, the cause was identified - somebody > had > > Ouch #1 > > > bent the cartridge connector pins to make better contact - that they did > - > > with the pins on the opposite edge of the connector. It worked a treat > > while a cart was installed - as soon as it was powered up without a > cart.... > > POP! > > Ouch #2. > > Still not as bad as the chap [1] I once knew who pulled boards one at a > time and retensioned the edge connectors in am HP9810 machien _with the > power on_. He eneded up shoring assrted power rails to TTL logic signals. > Alas at that time I didn't know as much about the 9810 as I do now, so I > couldn't help him mich. > > [1] Believe-it-or-not, he volunteered and was accepted to do restoration > work at a local museum. Without wanting to restart that flame war, I am > sure people like this have very much skewed my judgement. > > > > > the line driver on the 50 pin interface connector. > > > > Be careful not to tension the ROM pack lines...... > > THere are, of course, edge conenctors that are designed to short betwene > the sides when the PCB is removed. One common place to find one is the > option connector in a VT100. It intercepts the RS232 signals. So with no > board plugged in, the external connector is linked to the RS232 > drivers/receivers of the terminal logic, but an option board cna grab > the data, interpret it, feed only what it wants to to the terminal, etc. > > > > > But - the good side of the story is that the system works a treat - I > love > > it! > > I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt > side of the S100 expansion unit... > > -tony > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From jlw at jlw.com Mon Jun 13 17:09:49 2011 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Mon, 13 Jun 2011 15:09:49 -0700 Subject: recent score :) Message-ID: <4DF68AAD.3050903@jlw.com> > Ok, it's a small one, but it's wonderful to me :) > > I just got a case of 1/2 mag tape EOT markers :) Anyone need a pack? > > Jay West I was perusing old cctech items, and ran across this. I suppose I ought to have some, if you still have any left.... -- Jeff Woolsey {woolsey,jlw}@{jlw,jxh}.com first.last at gmail.com "A toy robot!!!!" -unlucky Japanese scientist "And Leon's getting laaaarrger!" -Johnny "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management "I didn't get a 'Harrumph!' out of _that_ guy." -Gov Le Petomaine Spum bad keming. From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 03:04:42 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 03:04:42 -0500 Subject: VAX 11/785 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here's the latest: The owner of the 11/785 phoned me tonight and has several pallets blocking access to the unit and his forklift is broken. I forgot to ask him if he has a pallet jack. Going to try for this weekend. Thanks, Paul On Wed, Jun 1, 2011 at 10:02 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > The owner of the 785 and I could not connect last weekend. I had an > epidural earlier, and will be allowed to drive tomorrow, and hopefully > walk better. The plan is now to see it this weekend, and I hope to > take pics and a fairly accurate inventory. I will try to post same > day. > > Paul > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jun 14 06:23:15 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 07:23:15 -0400 Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> References: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DF744A3.803@verizon.net> On 06/13/2011 09:54 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > A couple of the items we "saved" this weekend from the garage in MN > included both an RX01 and an RX02 floppy system. > > Unfortunately, the mice got to the RX02 before we did and really had > quite the palacial estate inside the cardboard box with foam packing > that held the unit. Needless to say, everything that comes out of a > mouse pretty much covered this drive system. Mouse effluent #1 turned > the whole thing to #2. It looks to be a total loss. > > However, the RX01, in another box, was tightly wrapped in plastic > and appears to have survived. Also obtained were a spare set of RX02 > "formatter" boards, which are the electronics that go in the chassis > and sit above the drives. > > Does anyone know if a pair of RX01 drives and power supply can be > converted to an RX02 by just changing the formatter boards in the chassis? > > Were the drives themselves different? or did they get to double density > by just changing the formatter? > > Chris Yes, you can. My RX02 is a former RX01with a board change. The other RX02, take it out and hose it down then scrub it the board may be salvageable. After the scrub with mild soap, de-water with 91% Isopopanal then dry well. The mechanics may or may not have survived. Door latches, motors and power supply board should be salvaged and cleaned. Allison > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 09:42:51 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:42:51 -0400 Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: <4DF744A3.803@verizon.net> References: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> <4DF744A3.803@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 7:23 AM, allison wrote: > The mechanics may or may not have survived. ?Door latches, motors and power > supply board should be salvaged and cleaned. Absolutely - I have at least one or two Calcomp drive mechs from RX01/RX02 with a seized motor or a busted latch. All repairable with the right spares. -ethan From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jun 14 10:08:07 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 10:08:07 -0500 Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: References: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> <4DF744A3.803@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110614150807.GG31329@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (06/14/2011 at 10:42AM -0400), Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 7:23 AM, allison wrote: > > The mechanics may or may not have survived. ?Door latches, motors and power > > supply board should be salvaged and cleaned. > > Absolutely - I have at least one or two Calcomp drive mechs from > RX01/RX02 with a seized motor or a busted latch. All repairable with > the right spares. OK. You guys convinced me. The top circuit board in the RX02 (the board on the hinge) has had the traces etched away by Mouse Effluent #1. I think that's a gonner. ME #1 also attacked the large electroyltic filter caps in the power supply to the point that the caps leaked their contents onto the metal below. They're a loss too. The transformer was also soaked in #1 so I don't have high hope for it either. The entire chassis is pitted and rusted as is the front bezel. The drives are jam packed with packing peanuts and shredded Instapak-like expanding foam but if I can get the rusted screws out and remove the bottom panels, I can suck all of that out and inspect the drives themselves. I think the drives served as Duplex housing for two mouse families and so I'm pretty sure it's going to be ugly inside the drives. But-- since I have a second set of RX02 electronics and you guys believe I can swap those with the RX01 electronics while keeping the same drives, we could be in business. The drives in the RX01 have cast aluminum frames which I understand to be the Calcomp drives. The RX02 drives are not a cast aluminum chassis and have the removeable base plate (well, assuming the screws aren't unscrewable) and so are not Calcomp but something newer... and obviously more attactive to mice. Thanks for the info! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 14 11:50:36 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:50:36 -0700 Subject: OT RE: ham radio licenses Message-ID: So, me too. :-) I was first licensed back in 1972 and let it lapse about ten years later, but all this talk got me motivated, too. Unlike Dave, I missed the Extra exam (by only a point, they told me), but I did earn a General class ticket. I'm waiting for crystals to bring up my HT-220, a true "nostalgia toy" as I used to work on them back in the late '70s, and in the meantime I've been working some SSB on 40 and 20, and playing with a 2M handheld. I was going to restore a Drake B-line I picked up a few years ago - again, out of nostalgia for these outstanding radios - but in one of my few eBay transactions where I was snookered, I ended up with a radio that looks like it sat in someone's carport for a few years. After working on it for a bit, I decided it's "a bridge too far" for my available time and patience, and I picked up a Kenwood TS-430S through Craigslist. It's never too late to have a happy childhood! -- Ian (K7PDP) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2011 5:26 PM > To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: OT: ham radio licenses > > > I had a ham license (coded Tech class, KA2UZK) from 1984 to 1994, and was > quite active on VHF FM and HF CW during that time. I've missed it quite a > bit over the years and have always intended to relicense, but the piles of > rules changes gave me pause, as rote memorization isn't really my strong > suit. > > Well, the recent discussion of ham radio licensing motivated me to finally > get off my butt and do it. I studied off-and-on for a few days to assimilate > the new rules & regs, and registered for the VE test given at the hamfest in > Hagerstown, MD on April 31st. I sat for all three exams...Element 2 > (Technician class), Element 3 (General class) and Element 4 (Extra class). > > I am very proud to report that I passed them all the first time through! > And, I don't mind saying, the Extra exam made my head hurt. > The FCC processed my paperwork very quickly, and on May 5th I was granted > an Extra-class license and assigned call sign AK4HZ. > > Of I'm still in West Virginia handling family business, while all of my ham > gear is in Florida, but my mother (who is house-sitting for me in > Florida) was able to ship two of my HTs up here so I'd have something at > least. When I have access to my HF gear (Yaesu FT-ONE and FT-920, Heath > HW-7, HW-8, and HW-9 QRP rigs, and Heath SB-101) I hope to try out some of > the neat new(ish) stuff like PSK31 that came up while I was away. > High-tech stuff aside, I'm sure to do some plain old SSB and CW on the HF > bands. > > Anyway, enough of my blather, I'm just proud to have accomplished that > and wanted to tell everyone. I'm hoping to catch some of you on the air! > > -Dave > 73's DE AK4HZ > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 14 12:40:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 18:40:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 13, 11 08:54:21 pm Message-ID: > However, the RX01, in another box, was tightly wrapped in plastic > and appears to have survived. Also obtained were a spare set of RX02 > "formatter" boards, which are the electronics that go in the chassis > and sit above the drives. > > Does anyone know if a pair of RX01 drives and power supply can be > converted to an RX02 by just changing the formatter boards in the chassis? There are 2 large boards bove the chassis, the top one (on a hinge) is the controller, the lower one is the read/write board. Those boards are bot different betwee nthe RX01 and RX02, and you must have a pair from the same type of drive. There's no (simple) way to use an RX01 controller with an RX02 read/write or vice versa. It sounds like you have a pair of RX02 boards though which will work together. I think the itnerconencting cable between them is differnt between an RX01 and RX02, but that it not a major porblem The pwoer supply is indentical between the 2 typs of drive. So is the chassis and the fan plenum The drives are almsot the same. From what I remember (and you'd have to check the prints or the pocket service guide), there's a resistor (1k?) between pins on the head conenctor that must be fitted if it's ued with one type of read/write board and remvoed for the other. I think all spare drives came with it fitted, and you diked it out if you were fitting the srive to the other type of unit.. IIRC, on a PDP11, you have to use an RX02 bus interface (RX211, RXV21) to use double-density, If you have an RX11 or RXV11, you can only use the thing as a single-density drrvie even if you fit the RX02 boards. Conversely, an RX211 or RXV21 will not work with an RX01. On omnibus PDP8s, the RX8e card wil lwork with boat types of drive unit, and will do sdobule density on an RX02. In one respect the RX01 is more interesting. There's a 36 pin edge connector on the controlelr PCB. It's to connect a KM11 maintenance board which will then dispaly th microcode PC, various flags, etc. And one of the switches on the KM11 does a halt-microcode-on-errrr. I ratehr enjoyed debugging mine that way. For the RX02, you need a logic analyser to figure out what the microcode is doing. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Tue Jun 14 15:10:18 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 15:10:18 -0500 Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: References: <20110614015421.GZ2435@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110614201018.GO31329@n0jcf.net> On Tuesday (06/14/2011 at 06:40PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > There are 2 large boards bove the chassis, the top one (on a hinge) is > the controller, the lower one is the read/write board. Those boards are > bot different betwee nthe RX01 and RX02, and you must have a pair from > the same type of drive. There's no (simple) way to use an RX01 > controller with an RX02 read/write or vice versa. It sounds like you have > a pair of RX02 boards though which will work together. I think the > itnerconencting cable between them is differnt between an RX01 and RX02, > but that it not a major porblem Yes... I have a pair of RX02 boards that has not been etched by ME#1 and I have a pair, in a rusted RX02 chassis, that have been etched by ME#1 with about a 2" x 3" oval of missing traces. > The pwoer supply is indentical between the 2 typs of drive. So is the > chassis and the fan plenum OK. Only the one in the RX01 chassis will be usable. > The drives are almsot the same. From what I remember (and you'd have to > check the prints or the pocket service guide), there's a resistor (1k?) > between pins on the head conenctor that must be fitted if it's ued with > one type of read/write board and remvoed for the other. I think all spare > drives came with it fitted, and you diked it out if you were fitting the > srive to the other type of unit.. I have learned that the RX01 drives are Calcommp drives. They have the cast aluminum chassis while the Mouse Condo RX02 drives do not have the cast aluminum chassis and _were_ a newer design. > IIRC, on a PDP11, you have to use an RX02 bus interface (RX211, RXV21) to > use double-density, If you have an RX11 or RXV11, you can only use the > thing as a single-density drrvie even if you fit the RX02 boards. > Conversely, an RX211 or RXV21 will not work with an RX01. On omnibus > PDP8s, the RX8e card wil lwork with boat types of drive unit, and will do > sdobule density on an RX02. Yes-- I am set here. I have RX211. > In one respect the RX01 is more interesting. There's a 36 pin edge > connector on the controlelr PCB. It's to connect a KM11 maintenance > board which will then dispaly th microcode PC, various flags, etc. And > one of the switches on the KM11 does a halt-microcode-on-errrr. I ratehr > enjoyed debugging mine that way. For the RX02, you need a logic analyser > to figure out what the microcode is doing. Interesting. OK. Well, if this pans out, I will certainly keep the RX01 board set in my collection so that I could change back in the future if need be. Thanks for the info Tony. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jun 14 20:22:43 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:22:43 +1200 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer References: Message-ID: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> > I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt > side of the S100 expansion unit... Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard enough to actually find the computer itself here in New Zealand. I think it will have to remain one of those wistful thoughts. I've decided to have a crack at fixing this BASIC ROM-PAC over the next few months. This is probably a good opportunity to actually LEARN about burning EPROMS and I'm sure I'm going to need to do so if I want to keep my 70's and 80's computers going for the next 20 years. It's going to be a big learning curve for me as my knowledge is still fragmented in this area. Also it's likely to be a slow project as there are lots of competing activities at the moment. However, hopefully you guys can assist if I need to ask what (to you) might seem stupid newbie-type questions. Of course I'm only ASSUMING it's the ROMS. There is not much else in the case though apart from a few caps and a logic chip or two. Is there any quick technique to determine if it IS the ROMS and if so if any particular ROM is faulty? One way that comes to mine with the Sorcerer is to somehow prevent the ROM-PAC from autostarting, then peer into the memory locations the ROM-PAC occupies (with the inbuilt monitor) to see if any of the memory seems messed up (with repeating patterns etc.). If NONE of the memory locations appear accessible this would indicate it might be something OTHER than the ROMS yes? (as it's unlikely all 4 ROMS would have developed a fault). Is this a reasonable approach to start off? I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when switching off (or something). Anyway...I'll report any progress. Terry From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Tue Jun 14 20:24:13 2011 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:24:13 -0400 Subject: Off-topic, but important: My mail seems to have been hacked Message-ID: I got home and logged into my Gmail today only to find a pile of undelived/blocked message reports and a popup box saying something about a login from China. Apparently somebody managed to steal my account info and use it as a spam zombie. As I participate in many retrocomputing groups, I figured that this might be as good a place as any to let folks know what has happened as I try to clean up this mess. Mike From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jun 14 20:41:36 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:41:36 +1200 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> > I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked > through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when > switching off (or something). Or perhaps more useful, when switching ON! (sorry..typo) Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:22 PM Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer >> I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt >> side of the S100 expansion unit... > > Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard > enough to actually find the computer itself here in New Zealand. I think > it will have to remain one of those wistful thoughts. > > I've decided to have a crack at fixing this BASIC ROM-PAC over the next > few months. This is probably a good opportunity to actually LEARN about > burning EPROMS and I'm sure I'm going to need to do so if I want to keep > my 70's and 80's computers going for the next 20 years. > > It's going to be a big learning curve for me as my knowledge is still > fragmented in this area. Also it's likely to be a slow project as there > are lots of competing activities at the moment. However, hopefully you > guys can assist if I need to ask what (to you) might seem stupid > newbie-type questions. > > Of course I'm only ASSUMING it's the ROMS. There is not much else in the > case though apart from a few caps and a logic chip or two. Is there any > quick technique to determine if it IS the ROMS and if so if any particular > ROM is faulty? > > One way that comes to mine with the Sorcerer is to somehow prevent the > ROM-PAC from autostarting, then peer into the memory locations the ROM-PAC > occupies (with the inbuilt monitor) to see if any of the memory seems > messed up (with repeating patterns etc.). If NONE of the memory locations > appear accessible this would indicate it might be something OTHER than the > ROMS yes? (as it's unlikely all 4 ROMS would have developed a fault). Is > this a reasonable approach to start off? > > I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked > through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when > switching off (or something). > > Anyway...I'll report any progress. > > Terry > > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jun 14 20:51:49 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 21:51:49 -0400 Subject: MAINDEC for Alpha? Message-ID: > Is there something like MAINDEC for Alpha? > I have an AS1000 that randomly goes catatonic and > I'd like to try to narrow down what's going on. On some occasions if running VMS, ANAL/ERROR can have useful tidbits. (Or ANAL/ERROR/ELV TRANSLATE on newer versions of VMS. Or DECEvent/Diagnose.) But... it's just an AS1000. Flaky memory and/or flaky sockets and/or crappy power supplies will be the majority of failures. Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 15 00:06:58 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:06:58 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... Message-ID: So my wife wanted to show me a book tonight. Turned out it was one of mine, she'd noticed something interesting. System 360/370 Job Control Language and the Access Methods by Reino Hannula What's up with the Swastika on the spine of the book? It's made up of little triangles, but it's definitely a swastika. Very strange. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 15 00:37:41 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 05:37:41 +0000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:06:58 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > So my wife wanted to show me a book tonight. Turned out it was one > of mine, she'd noticed something interesting. > > System 360/370 > Job Control Language > and the > Access Methods > by Reino Hannula > > What's up with the Swastika on the spine of the book? It's made up > of little triangles, but it's definitely a swastika. Very strange. > > Zane I don't the history of the symbol itself but I have read in a few places it was a sign of good luck (apparently not for everybody, though) before it was used by the Nazis. IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. Here are a couple of links: http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://edwinblack.com/ I have not seen Black's book itself or looked into the issue much. I did see a few reviews on the book and they were very favorable. It will be interesting to see what you find out about your particular book. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jun 14 03:59:30 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 09:59:30 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: MAINDEC for Alpha? Message-ID: <01O2GV48LXWI002FSV@beyondthepale.ie> Dave McGuire wrote: >On 6/13/11 5:11 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> Is there something like MAINDEC for Alpha? >> I have an AS1000 that randomly goes catatonic and I'd like to try to narrow down what's going on. >> It will do it shortly after boot, usually within 15 minutes, and won't run for longer than an hour at most. >> Sometimes it hangs hard and must be power-cycled, sometimes it crashes with random messages. >> The SRM diagnostics say nothing is wrong, even when run for very long loops. > > I can't help you with your specific question, but as far as general >info about the AS1000, if you find yourself spending too much time on >it, trash it and get something like an AS4100 to replace it. The AS1000 >is one of the crappiest, flakiest machines I've ever seen come out of >DEC. I've owned several, and every one of them ended up giving me problems. > I have had a fair amount of grief with my AS1000A machines but I wouldn't say it was much more than my other DEC machines which all have their own share of problems. Do you ever get a real crash complete with crashdump? If so, analysis of the dump may help pin down the problem. If not, there might still be something in the error log. It may be worth making sure the CPU board is seated correctly in its slot - I have had issues with this and I assume the AS1000 and AS1000A are the same in this respect. As far as I can tell the main difference between them is that the AS1000A has more PCI slots instead of (E)ISA slots. The B-Cache on the CPU board seems to be prone to failure, however it usually shows up in the diagnostics. It can be disabled by moving a jumper and the machine will run with reduced performance. (The memexer diagnostic will then spectacularly fail as it appears to divide something by the cache size...) I've also had memory failures but these also showed up in the diagnostics for me (sometimes the diagnostics seem to report the wrong slot as being faulty). However, I've also seen memory problems in other alphas cause random hangs while nothing shows up in diagnostics. You could try running with a reduced amount of memory. As with any machine, it is worth checking the the power supply voltages are correct and don't have excess ripple. Right now, I've got one that used to randomly halt and now randomly switches itself off. I suspect problems with the front panel switches or related logic but I haven't worked up the enthusiasm to check this theory out. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonas at otter.se Tue Jun 14 15:26:48 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:26:48 +0200 Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF7C408.1010805@otter.se> On Mon, 13 Jun 2011, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Unfortunately, the mice got to the RX02 before we did and really had > quite the palacial estate inside the cardboard box with foam packing > that held the unit. Needless to say, everything that comes out of a > mouse pretty much covered this drive system. Mouse effluent #1 turned > the whole thing to #2. It looks to be a total loss. That's why one needs a cat /Jonas From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 01:12:28 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 01:12:28 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: ibm was tied in with the nazi's i though they were amarican not german... gee they sure managed to keep this one quiet On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 12:37 AM, wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:06:58 -0700 > "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > > > So my wife wanted to show me a book tonight. Turned out it was one > > of mine, she'd noticed something interesting. > > > > System 360/370 > > Job Control Language > > and the > > Access Methods > > by Reino Hannula > > > > What's up with the Swastika on the spine of the book? It's made up > > of little triangles, but it's definitely a swastika. Very strange. > > > > Zane > > I don't the history of the symbol itself but I have read in a few places it > was a sign of good luck (apparently not for everybody, though) before it > was used by the Nazis. > > IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after > research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war > apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to > identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. > > Here are a couple of links: > > http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ > http://edwinblack.com/ > > I have not seen Black's book itself or looked into the issue much. I did > see a few reviews on the book and they were very favorable. > > It will be interesting to see what you find out about your particular book. > > -- > +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | > | | > | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | > | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | > | | > | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | > | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | > |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| > | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | > |=======================================+================================| > | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | > | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | > +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 15 01:59:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 23:59:22 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: , <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DF7F5DA.17657.38A59A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2011 at 5:37, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after > research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war > apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to > identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. Excuse me? I'd always been given to believe that CTR was formed from a merger of various operations, including meat processing, scales, time clocks and punched card equipment and subsequently renamed IBM. I recall from first seeing mention in the IEEE Annals of Computing (I still have the issue) that the Reich Rassenamt made extensive use of Hollerith card equipment from IBM's German subsidiary, Dehomag (Deutsche Hollerith-Maschinen GmbH). While correspondence shows that the chairman of Dehomag was a deplorable sycophant; it's not clear to me that T.J. Watson Sr. was interested in anything except the Reich's money. Indeed that attitude can be seen in the Prescott Bush and his involvement in Union Banking Corporation, controlled by the Thyssen family who used their banking connections to move Third Reich money and gold around secretly in direct violation of U.S. law. >From my reading, it's not entirely clear how much direct effect IBM's involvement in the Rassenamt figured in the crimes against humanity carried out by the Third Reich. Here is a (rather bad) reproduction of a poster that was also part of the Annals article: http://soup.tomster.org/post/7762021/bersicht-mit-Hollerith- Lochkarten-The-graphics-artist Somehow, the poster seems to be in the same vein of some of the of materials pitched to various Federal agencies today. The wiretapping, data-mining, profiling, etc. capabilities of today would have seemed like a fantastic dream to an SS boss. --Chuck From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 15 02:38:54 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 07:38:54 +0000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: <4DF7F5DA.17657.38A59A2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201106150738.p5F7cww3014133@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> > IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after >> research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war >> apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to >> identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. > Excuse me? I'd always been given to believe that CTR was formed from a > merger of various operations, including meat processing, scales, time > clocks and punched card equipment and subsequently renamed IBM. Yeah, keep reading. CTR bought out Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Groupe (Dehomag) in 1923 and in 1924 they became IBM. The Hollerith machines are what made IBM all those millions/billions after that and during the war years. Without the Hollerith machine IBM would have been JATC (Just Another Timecard Company). > I recall from first seeing mention in the IEEE Annals of Computing (I > still have the issue) that the Reich Rassenamt made extensive use of > Hollerith card equipment from IBM's German subsidiary, Dehomag (Deutsche > Hollerith-Maschinen GmbH). While correspondence shows that the chairman > of Dehomag was a deplorable sycophant; it's not clear to me that T.J. > Watson Sr. was interested in anything except the Reich's money. So what? How does that take away from the author's research or position, that seems to be supported by all the historians? IBM did make money off the machines and programs used to kill 15 or 20 million people. Is that ok, as long as it was just for the money? Is that what you meant, or did I misunderstand you? And Watson didn't mind receiving a medal of honor from the 3rd Reich. All that stuff is beyond dispute. Yes, later he gave it back. But at the time he accepted it. > Somehow, the poster seems to be in the same vein of some of the of > materials pitched to various Federal agencies today. The wiretapping, > data-mining, profiling, etc. capabilities of today would have seemed like > a fantastic dream to an SS boss. No doubt! Anyway like I said I haven't looked into it much (except just now after the 2 responses) but the documentation about the major facts- the acquisition of Dehomag, IBM's admission in 2001 that their machines were extensively used by the Nazis, etc. are all easily found online. I didn't write the book, but like I said I have seen some reviews including one that Harvard University put out, and nobody seems to be arguing with what Black has written. My post is to answer Zane, not to debate stuff I'm not equipped to debate about, I'm not a historian or history buff and I don't sell books. But if you want to argue with what the book says I would say first read it and then check what the academics have said about it before you start writing your own papers on the topic ;-) Because I think Black has his sources lined up and I'm quite sure you and I dont. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 03:09:15 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 01:09:15 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150738.p5F7cww3014133@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> References: <4DF7F5DA.17657.38A59A2@cclist.sydex.com> <201106150738.p5F7cww3014133@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Jun 15, at 12:38 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after >>> research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war >>> apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to >>> identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. > >> Excuse me? I'd always been given to believe that CTR was formed from >> a >> merger of various operations, including meat processing, scales, time >> clocks and punched card equipment and subsequently renamed IBM. > > Yeah, keep reading. CTR bought out Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Groupe > (Dehomag) in 1923 and in 1924 they became IBM. The Hollerith machines > are > what made IBM all those millions/billions after that and during the war > years. Without the Hollerith machine IBM would have been JATC (Just > Another > Timecard Company). ?!!!? Hollerith cards and equipment were invented by Herman Hollerith (b. Buffalo, NY) in the US and were used in the 1890 US Census. He formed the "Tabulating Machine Company" which amalgamated with others to become CTR in 1911. If CTR bought out Dehomag in 1923, I would guess that Dehomag had earlier spun off or acquired rights from the initial US Hollerith company. > From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 15 03:28:05 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 08:28:05 +0000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: Message-ID: <201106150828.p5F8S9Qj032185@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> > If CTR bought out Dehomag in 1923, I would guess that Dehomag had earlier > spun off or acquired rights from the initial US Hollerith company. That's exactly what happened. I had the same reaction as you: why would IBM have to buy a German Hollerith machine company when the inventor himself was already part of the company that would become IBM? On the face of it, it sounds like a big circle. I guess it was because the Germans developed a better hardware implementation of the machines and the Americans wanted the business in German and the rest of Europe, which Dehomag had bought the rights to. Wikipedia has a little bit on it, not much, and I found an interesting article on the IBM site about a restoration of one of the very early machines from Dehomag. http://www.ibm.com/ibm/greateribm/connections/connections_article26.shtml I don't know if you've ever seen an IBM check sorter, but they are amazing pieces of engineering. I can't see the picture too well in the IBM article but they do mention the check sorters are related to these early machines. From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 03:33:46 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 04:33:46 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150738.p5F7cww3014133@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> References: <4DF7F5DA.17657.38A59A2@cclist.sydex.com> <201106150738.p5F7cww3014133@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DF86E6A.1000807@gmail.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Yeah, keep reading. CTR bought out Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen Groupe > (Dehomag) in 1923 and in 1924 they became IBM. The Hollerith machines are > what made IBM all those millions/billions after that and during the war > years. Without the Hollerith machine IBM would have been JATC (Just Another > Timecard Company). Uhh. No. Dehomag was *founded* as a subsidiary and was reabsorbed. IBM did cooperate with the Nazis (there's a long tradition of American companies supplying both sides during wars), but they were *never* a German company. Hollerith founded one of IBM's antecedent companies in 1896, **in the United States**. Specifically, in Washington, DC. Hollerith was of German descent, but was born in Buffalo, NY, and was decidedly American. Peace... Sridhar From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 15 03:45:23 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 08:45:23 +0000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: <4DF86E6A.1000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201106150845.p5F8jR6S025680@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> > Uhh. No. > > Dehomag was *founded* as a subsidiary and was reabsorbed. Uhh, citation please. Because here it says Dehomag was acquired by CTR in 1923. I have not found anything that says any American company created Dehomag as a subsidiary and reabsorbed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag Maybe you are referring to the fact that IBM had to distance themselves from the Nazis during the war years and spun off some of their operations which they subsequently reabsorbed after the War? That does not mean Dehomag was *founded* as a subsidiary and was reabsorbed. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 04:04:35 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 02:04:35 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150828.p5F8S9Qj032185@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150828.p5F8S9Qj032185@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Jun 15, at 1:28 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> If CTR bought out Dehomag in 1923, I would guess that Dehomag had >> earlier >> spun off or acquired rights from the initial US Hollerith company. > > That's exactly what happened. I had the same reaction as you: why would > IBM have to buy a German Hollerith machine company when the inventor > himself was already part of the company that would become IBM? On the > face > of it, it sounds like a big circle. It's not surprising in the realm of international corporate structures. The problem in all this started with your statement that "IBM started out as a German company". That flies in the face of all the well-known history. > I guess it was because the Germans developed a better hardware > implementation of the machines and the Americans wanted the business in > German and the rest of Europe, which Dehomag had bought the rights to. > Wikipedia has a little bit on it, not much, and I found an interesting > article on the IBM site about a restoration of one of the very early > machines from Dehomag. > http://www.ibm.com/ibm/greateribm/connections/ > connections_article26.shtml From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 15 04:37:42 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:37:42 +0000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: Message-ID: <201106150937.p5F9bkJ8016599@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> > The problem in all this started with your statement that "IBM started out > as a German company". That flies in the face of all the well-known > history. If you go by this thread the "well-known" history isn't. IBM didn't exist before they bought the company that turned out to be their main business and source of income over the next 2 decades. They weren't IBM before they bought Dehomag, the next year they became IBM. There, does that mean we can all be friends again? From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 04:58:13 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 05:58:13 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150845.p5F8jR6S025680@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> References: <4DF86E6A.1000807@gmail.com> <201106150845.p5F8jR6S025680@imr-db02.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DF88235.1060702@gmail.com> vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> Uhh. No. >> >> Dehomag was *founded* as a subsidiary and was reabsorbed. > > Uhh, citation please. Because here it says Dehomag was acquired by CTR in > 1923. I have not found anything that says any American company created > Dehomag as a subsidiary and reabsorbed it. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM Even if you accept the point that Dehomag was a truly independent company before 1923, the first paragraph of the above article is enough to disprove your point that IBM was ever a German company. Peace... Sridhar From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Jun 15 05:17:52 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:17:52 +1200 Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> <12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Ok, progress on checking out this Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC.. I diescovered there was no way you could exit to the monitor program if you had a hung ROM-PAC plugged in BUT....I figured out a way to check the content of the ROM-PAC ROMS. In the Sorcerer the ROM-PAC occupies space from C000-DFFF using 4 chips. Reading the docs I saw that the boot up sequence jumps to DFFD or DFFA depending on if it's a warm or cold start. However, if it finds nothing there, it assumes there is no ROM PAC attached and boots up the monitor. YES! This means all I needed to do is remove the number 4 IC (D800-DFFF) and I should be able to boot to the monitor and then examine the contents of the three lower ICs. I could then substitute the number 4 IC for one of the lower ones and examine its contents too. I removed the number 4 chip, plugged in the ROM-PAC and booted. Success, I was in the monitor. I then dumped the memory locations corresponding to the ROMS. The two lower ICs (C000-CFFF) showed all different hex numbers. In other words it looked like it contained good code. However, the third IC (D000-D777) contained all zeros!! I then swapped over the D800-DFFF chip I'd removed into the socket which originally contained the D000-D777 and checked that number 4 chip. The code looked good and I could even see the bootstrap code at the end at DFFD and DFFA (of course it was at location D7FD and D7FA as I had this number 4 chip in socket 3). Conclusion. It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. Next task. Unpack the EPROM burner and try to figure out how to use it. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:41 PM Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer >> I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked >> through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when >> switching off (or something). > > Or perhaps more useful, when switching ON! (sorry..typo) > > Terry (Tez) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Stewart" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:22 PM > Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer > > >>> I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the >>> fornt >>> side of the S100 expansion unit... >> >> Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard >> enough to actually find the computer itself here in New Zealand. I think >> it will have to remain one of those wistful thoughts. >> >> I've decided to have a crack at fixing this BASIC ROM-PAC over the next >> few months. This is probably a good opportunity to actually LEARN about >> burning EPROMS and I'm sure I'm going to need to do so if I want to keep >> my 70's and 80's computers going for the next 20 years. >> >> It's going to be a big learning curve for me as my knowledge is still >> fragmented in this area. Also it's likely to be a slow project as there >> are lots of competing activities at the moment. However, hopefully you >> guys can assist if I need to ask what (to you) might seem stupid >> newbie-type questions. >> >> Of course I'm only ASSUMING it's the ROMS. There is not much else in the >> case though apart from a few caps and a logic chip or two. Is there any >> quick technique to determine if it IS the ROMS and if so if any >> particular ROM is faulty? >> >> One way that comes to mine with the Sorcerer is to somehow prevent the >> ROM-PAC from autostarting, then peer into the memory locations the >> ROM-PAC occupies (with the inbuilt monitor) to see if any of the memory >> seems messed up (with repeating patterns etc.). If NONE of the memory >> locations appear accessible this would indicate it might be something >> OTHER than the ROMS yes? (as it's unlikely all 4 ROMS would have >> developed a fault). Is this a reasonable approach to start off? >> >> I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked >> through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when >> switching off (or something). >> >> Anyway...I'll report any progress. >> >> Terry >> >> >> > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1513/3693 - Release Date: 06/10/11 > From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed Jun 15 05:22:57 2011 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:22:57 +1000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <005101cc2b46$324b1bf0$96e153d0$@on.net> IBM and the Holocaust is a very good read if you're interested in finding out about some "other" sides of IBM history. But I'd also recommend you read The Maverick and His Machine by Kevin Maney - it's the story of Thomas Watson - once you get some insight into the man it's easier to understand Watson's business style and how he "thinked" and the drivers behind IBM's relatioship with Hollerith and Germany. ++++++++++ Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of vintagecoder at aol.com Sent: Wednesday, 15 June 2011 15:38 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... On Tue, 14 Jun 2011 22:06:58 -0700 "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > So my wife wanted to show me a book tonight. Turned out it was one > of mine, she'd noticed something interesting. > > System 360/370 > Job Control Language > and the > Access Methods > by Reino Hannula > > What's up with the Swastika on the spine of the book? It's made up > of little triangles, but it's definitely a swastika. Very strange. > > Zane I don't the history of the symbol itself but I have read in a few places it was a sign of good luck (apparently not for everybody, though) before it was used by the Nazis. IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. Here are a couple of links: http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ http://edwinblack.com/ I have not seen Black's book itself or looked into the issue much. I did see a few reviews on the book and they were very favorable. It will be interesting to see what you find out about your particular book. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 15 05:42:02 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:42:02 +0000 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: <4DF88235.1060702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201106151042.p5FAg6Fl027459@imr-da03.mx.aol.com> >> Uhh. No. >> >> Dehomag was *founded* as a subsidiary and was reabsorbed. > > Uhh, citation please. Because here it says Dehomag was acquired by CTR in > 1923. I have not found anything that says any American company created > Dehomag as a subsidiary and reabsorbed it. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_IBM > Even if you accept the point that Dehomag was a truly independent company > before 1923, the first paragraph of the above article is enough to > disprove your point that IBM was ever a German company. That's already been addressed since I tried to clarify what I said. While you're taking issue with what I said, you can't support what you said: "Uhh. No. Dehomag was *founded* as a subsidiary and was reabsorbed." since I asked for a citation and you haven't provided one. How many brain surgeons does it take to screw in a lightbulb? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jun 15 05:40:01 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:40:01 +0100 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very interesting! 1. The Swastika is a very old symbol. 2. There may be clue in the name of the author 3. If he is Finnish then there is one obscure possibility 4. At one point the Finns sided with the Germans against the Russians 5. The Finnish aircraft were marked with a blue Swastika. 6. IBM (Blue) book with triangles (aircraft symbol) by Finnish author? Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 15 June 2011 06:07 To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... So my wife wanted to show me a book tonight. Turned out it was one of mine, she'd noticed something interesting. System 360/370 Job Control Language and the Access Methods by Reino Hannula What's up with the Swastika on the spine of the book? It's made up of little triangles, but it's definitely a swastika. Very strange. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 08:16:40 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:16:40 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: > IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after > research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war > apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to > identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. I don't think there are too many historians that take this book seriously. -- Will From db at db.net Wed Jun 15 08:23:27 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:23:27 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 09:16:40AM -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after > > research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war > > apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to > > identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. > > I don't think there are too many historians that take this book seriously. Can I call Godwin on this thread? Please? ;-) -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 08:35:15 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:35:15 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF86E6A.1000807@gmail.com> References: <4DF7F5DA.17657.38A59A2@cclist.sydex.com> <201106150738.p5F7cww3014133@imr-da04.mx.aol.com> <4DF86E6A.1000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Hollerith founded one of IBM's antecedent companies in 1896, **in the United > States**. ?Specifically, in Washington, DC. ? Hollerith was of German > descent, but was born in Buffalo, NY, and was decidedly American. And most of those machines from the interwar years were engineered in Endicott, NY. I do not think the German use of unit record equipment was all that important. When IBM severed ties, the Germans ran out of spare parts quickly, and apparently made no real attempt to self supply them. There are just-postwar reports - probably from the Operation Paperclip and/or EEIS guys - of seeing lots of busted card machines left outside in the rain, for lack of spare parts. -- Will From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jun 15 09:01:26 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:01:26 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> Message-ID: <201106151401.p5FE1eVS015019@billy.ezwind.net> At 08:23 AM 6/15/2011, Diane Bruce wrote: >Can I call Godwin on this thread? Please? ;-) Well, you know, there are none so blind as those who will Nazi. - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 09:34:28 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:34:28 -0500 Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis In-Reply-To: <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> <12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 5:17 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Ok, progress on checking out this Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC.. > >....I figured out a way to check the content of the ROM-PAC ROMS. > > Conclusion. ?It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. Well done! I never had a Sorcerer back in the day, but a mate of mine did. I didn't know about the Dick Smith's connection until you brought it up. I've shopped there many a time, but not until the 1990s, so I missed out on that era. Good luck with everything, -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 15 10:09:24 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 08:09:24 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: At 5:37 AM +0000 6/15/11, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >I don't the history of the symbol itself but I have read in a few places it >was a sign of good luck (apparently not for everybody, though) before it >was used by the Nazis. There is that, there is also the possibility that no one really thought anything of it. I've had the book sitting on a shelf for years, and my wife just noticed it. Of course the shelf has only been visable for about 2 years, but... Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 15 10:11:51 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 08:11:51 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A quick google seems to indicate he was in fact Finnish. Zane At 11:40 AM +0100 6/15/11, Rod Smallwood wrote: >Very interesting! > >1. The Swastika is a very old symbol. > >2. There may be clue in the name of the author > >3. If he is Finnish then there is one obscure possibility > >4. At one point the Finns sided with the Germans against the Russians > >5. The Finnish aircraft were marked with a blue Swastika. > >6. IBM (Blue) book with triangles (aircraft symbol) by Finnish author? -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From db at db.net Wed Jun 15 10:45:21 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:45:21 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 08:09:24AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 5:37 AM +0000 6/15/11, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > >I don't the history of the symbol itself but I have read in a few places it > >was a sign of good luck (apparently not for everybody, though) before it > >was used by the Nazis. http://www.floridashootersnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=39102&start=0 It's not something anyone would want to remember after WWII. > There is that, there is also the possibility that no one really > thought anything of it. I've had the book sitting on a shelf for http://www.flickr.com/photos/silvery/143053448/ "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." Can we move on to the next weird offbeat conspiracy theory? This one is boring. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 11:16:17 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:16:17 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DF8DAD1.6060905@gmail.com> Diane Bruce wrote: > Can we move on to the next weird offbeat conspiracy theory? This one is > boring. OTOH, there is no conspiracy, but I find reading about potential meanings / sources of this particular book's symbol* interesting (Zane, do you have a photo?) * and that includes the possibility that it's entirely random and intended for decorative purposes only, of course :-) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 15 11:31:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:31:38 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> References: , , <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DF87BFA.18333.B054A@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2011 at 11:45, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 08:09:24AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 5:37 AM +0000 6/15/11, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > > >I don't the history of the symbol itself but I have read in a few > > >places it was a sign of good luck (apparently not for everybody, > > >though) before it was used by the Nazis. > > http://www.floridashootersnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=39102&start > =0 > > It's not something anyone would want to remember after WWII. Well, things and their meanings change. For instance, you might Google "Bellamy Salute". --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 15 11:33:01 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:33:01 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> On 6/15/11 1:37 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after > research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war > apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to > identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. Whether the above is a crock or not, this thread happening today is an interesting coincidence for me. My lady and I were at our new building on Monday sweeping and cleaning up stuff. I took a fresh air break (no power there yet, ugh) and was hanging out outside the front door, when a guy who was walking by stopped and chatted me up. He was a very nice guy, but apparently he's the neighborhood bible thumper (ugh) and conspiracy theorist (ugh again). He talked about how IBM was originally a German company and supplied card equipment to the Germans and was "partially responsible" for the Holocaust. Obviously he had read Black's book...with a very active imagination. And obviously, being interested in good stuff like technology and not bullshit like war and people being dicks to each other, I really didn't give a rat's ass. ;) But, as he was very friendly, I listened to what he had to say as his point of view was so very bizarre. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 15 11:37:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:37:28 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF87BFA.18333.B054A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> <4DF87BFA.18333.B054A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DF8DFC8.4090608@neurotica.com> On 6/15/11 12:31 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Well, things and their meanings change. For instance, you might > Google "Bellamy Salute". Is that anything like "bronx cheer"? -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 11:51:29 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:51:29 -0700 Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis In-Reply-To: <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> <12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: <41c5df8d970e5c921420b2f3dd00eb1b@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 15, at 3:17 AM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Ok, progress on checking out this Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC.. > > I diescovered there was no way you could exit to the monitor program > if you had a hung ROM-PAC plugged in BUT....I figured out a way to > check the content of the ROM-PAC ROMS. > > In the Sorcerer the ROM-PAC occupies space from C000-DFFF using 4 > chips. Reading the docs I saw that the boot up sequence jumps to DFFD > or DFFA depending on if it's a warm or cold start. However, if it > finds nothing there, it assumes there is no ROM PAC attached and boots > up the monitor. YES! This means all I needed to do is remove the > number 4 IC (D800-DFFF) and I should be able to boot to the monitor > and then examine the contents of the three lower ICs. I could then > substitute the number 4 IC for one of the lower ones and examine its > contents too. > > I removed the number 4 chip, plugged in the ROM-PAC and booted. > Success, I was in the monitor. I then dumped the memory locations > corresponding to the ROMS. The two lower ICs (C000-CFFF) showed all > different hex numbers. In other words it looked like it contained > good code. However, the third IC (D000-D777) contained all zeros!! > I then swapped over the D800-DFFF chip I'd removed into the socket > which originally contained the D000-D777 and checked that number 4 > chip. The code looked good and I could even see the bootstrap code at > the end at DFFD and DFFA (of course it was at location D7FD and D7FA > as I had this number 4 chip in socket 3). > > Conclusion. It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. > > Next task. Unpack the EPROM burner and try to figure out how to use > it. Great work! Just a suggestion, one more thing you might check, as confirmation, is to place the suspect ROM chip in another location and look at the contents from there, to confirm that it is the ROM chip and not the ROM-selection circuitry or something particular to that chip position causing the problem (although it probably would show all-FFs if it was the selection circuitry). From db at db.net Wed Jun 15 11:53:37 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:53:37 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF87BFA.18333.B054A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> <4DF87BFA.18333.B054A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110615165337.GA16447@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 09:31:38AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jun 2011 at 11:45, Diane Bruce wrote: > i... > > Well, things and their meanings change. For instance, you might > Google "Bellamy Salute". I knew about that one already. I was rather hoping I could avoid mentioning it on this list tbh. > --Chuck - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 15 11:56:34 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:56:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF8DAD1.6060905@gmail.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> <4DF8DAD1.6060905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > Diane Bruce wrote: >> Can we move on to the next weird offbeat conspiracy theory? This one is >> boring. > > OTOH, there is no conspiracy, but I find reading about potential meanings / > sources of this particular book's symbol* interesting (Zane, do you have a > photo?) > > * and that includes the possibility that it's entirely random and intended > for decorative purposes only, of course :-) I'll have to see about taking a photo of it tonight. Due to the time frame of when the book would have been published, I'm inclined to think it is just some random design, and someone not thinking. Still it's strange. It's also strange to have something like that on the spine of the book given that it's from a publisher I recognized. Zane From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 15 11:58:05 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 12:58:05 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4DF8E49D.3000905@snarc.net> >> IBM started out as a German company. There was a book put out after >> research done by Edwin Black showing IBM was part of the Nazi war >> apparatus, since they needed information processing capabilities to >> identify "enemies of the state" and round them up for execution. > I don't think there are too many historians that take this book seriously. > > -- > Will Correct. The book is highly sensationalist. BTW, this thread from went 0-Godwin's Law in the first post! Impressive. :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 12:06:47 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 10:06:47 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106150937.p5F9bkJ8016599@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> References: <201106150937.p5F9bkJ8016599@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Jun 15, at 2:37 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: >> The problem in all this started with your statement that "IBM started >> out >> as a German company". That flies in the face of all the well-known >> history. > > If you go by this thread the "well-known" history isn't. > > IBM didn't exist before they bought the company that turned out to be > their > main business and source of income over the next 2 decades. They > weren't > IBM before they bought Dehomag, the next year they became IBM. There, > does > that mean we can all be friends again? I haven't seen anything in this thread that would counter that well-known history. CTR, an American company (with its foreign acquisition Dehomag) became IBM, an American (headquartered) company. The Hollerith-card technology and equipment originated in America, well before Dehomag existed. According to one of your wiki refs Dehomag provided some patents or intellectual property to IBM, but I have never seen anything to suggest that was a majority or even significant portion of the Hollerith-card technology. I don't know how you would get from all that to "IBM started out as a German company". From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 12:54:32 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:54:32 +0100 Subject: Vintage Portable Computing Suggestions? In-Reply-To: <20110522191113.0b57d8a1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4DD3AC2B.8080202@wickensonline.co.uk> <20110522191113.0b57d8a1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On 22 May 2011 18:11, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 18 May 2011 12:23:23 +0100 > Mark Wickens wrote: > >> I'd welcome suggestions from members of the list as to what I could take >> this year that would be fun to explore but also practical enough to use >> day to day to write text for the website. > IBM WorkPad z50 > Not that practical for text editing, but fun to explore: HP48 I blame this thread for my acquisition of a Z88 yesterday and an Amstrad NC100 today. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 15 12:59:58 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:59:58 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> On 6/15/2011 12:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > He was a very nice guy, but apparently he's the neighborhood bible > thumper (ugh) and conspiracy theorist (ugh again). > But, as he was very friendly, I listened to what he > had to say as his point of view was so very bizarre. I have a habit of entertaining "crazy" people longer than most people have the patience for. I try to have an open mind, and I think there's not much harm in listening to other people's viewpoints, even if the average joe might dismiss them (much sooner than I) as crazy. I often try to do a couple things: 1> try to understand how they came to believe this type of thing 2> to fully understand what their beliefs are 3> get them to tell me the most extreme thing about their subject that they fully believe in. Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer around when faith steps into the room. Mind you, I'm not necessarily linking religion with faith, but rather faith in the context of "belief w/o adequate scientific proof" Keith From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 12:36:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:36:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: <4DF7C408.1010805@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Jun 14, 11 10:26:48 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, 13 Jun 2011, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Unfortunately, the mice got to the RX02 before we did and really had > > quite the palacial estate inside the cardboard box with foam packing > > that held the unit. Needless to say, everything that comes out of a > > mouse pretty much covered this drive system. Mouse effluent #1 turned > > the whole thing to #2. It looks to be a total loss. > > That's why one needs a cat Hmm.. Cats have (minor) problems : They are a darn good sourcve of static electricity. In fact one book I have on making van de Greaf generators, etc, describes the 'cat-o-static', namely a way of charging a leyden jar by stroking a cat. I suspect a cat on its own is quite capable of zapping MOS decices. They like sleeping on whatever service manual you want to look at. One of my previous cats was atreacted to HP manuals only, for some odd reason. That said, I love cats, and not jsut because they perform the useful function of killing vermin. I can't explain it, but stroking a cat is one of the most calming things I know. If I have had major techncial problems, a few minutes with a cat and thigs are not anything like as bad. Muon, the cat who currently lives with me, is a real character. I just have to keep hm away from delicate PCBs, and wait for him to release the manual I want to look at. But it's worth it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 12:40:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:40:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: convert RX01 to RX02? In-Reply-To: <20110614201018.GO31329@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 14, 11 03:10:18 pm Message-ID: > > The drives are almsot the same. From what I remember (and you'd have to > > check the prints or the pocket service guide), there's a resistor (1k?) > > between pins on the head conenctor that must be fitted if it's ued with > > one type of read/write board and remvoed for the other. I think all spare > > drives came with it fitted, and you diked it out if you were fitting the > > srive to the other type of unit.. > > I have learned that the RX01 drives are Calcommp drives. They have the > cast aluminum chassis while the Mouse Condo RX02 drives do not have the > cast aluminum chassis and _were_ a newer design. > Right. The Calcomp deives are much better made than the later ones. The latter are made in a folded metal cas with a removeable base plate. There's a small cast chassis in side carrying the spindle, head (and ppsitioned) and motors. I cna't rememebr who made those. I've onlty ever seen the Calcomp ones in an RX01 though. I have no idea whether they will work in an RX02. As I mentioend, there is something about having to fit/remove a resistor in some cases, this might be to make the later drives compatible with the Calcomp ones (and thus Calcomp ones are only usable with RX01 boards). I think you have to try it, and/or read the printsets caregully. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 13:14:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:14:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis In-Reply-To: <41c5df8d970e5c921420b2f3dd00eb1b@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 15, 11 09:51:29 am Message-ID: > > I removed the number 4 chip, plugged in the ROM-PAC and booted. > > Success, I was in the monitor. I then dumped the memory locations > > corresponding to the ROMS. The two lower ICs (C000-CFFF) showed all > > different hex numbers. In other words it looked like it contained > > good code. However, the third IC (D000-D777) contained all zeros!! > > I then swapped over the D800-DFFF chip I'd removed into the socket > > which originally contained the D000-D777 and checked that number 4 > > chip. The code looked good and I could even see the bootstrap code at > > the end at DFFD and DFFA (of course it was at location D7FD and D7FA > > as I had this number 4 chip in socket 3). > > > > Conclusion. It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. > > > > Next task. Unpack the EPROM burner and try to figure out how to use > > it. > > Great work! > > Just a suggestion, one more thing you might check, as confirmation, is > to place the suspect ROM chip in another location and look at the > contents from there, to confirm that it is the ROM chip and not the > ROM-selection circuitry or something particular to that chip position > causing the problem (although it probably would show all-FFs if it was > the selection circuitry). I thought I understood that he'd put the ROM he removed from socket 4 (to prevent the Pac auto-booting) into the location 3 and found he could read that chip correctly. Which would seem to indicate that the selection circuitry is fine and that the original ROM #3 is defective. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 12:50:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:50:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Jun 15, 11 01:22:43 pm Message-ID: > > > I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt > > side of the S100 expansion unit... > > Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never seen a secod one (or indeed another Sorceror). > enough to actually find the computer itself here in New Zealand. I think it > will have to remain one of those wistful thoughts. > > I've decided to have a crack at fixing this BASIC ROM-PAC over the next few > months. This is probably a good opportunity to actually LEARN about burning > EPROMS and I'm sure I'm going to need to do so if I want to keep my 70's and > 80's computers going for the next 20 years. Excellent!. Wanting to learn is always a Good Thing, and one reason for doing battle with a classic computer. > It's going to be a big learning curve for me as my knowledge is still > fragmented in this area. Also it's likely to be a slow project as there are > lots of competing activities at the moment. However, hopefully you guys can > assist if I need to ask what (to you) might seem stupid newbie-type > questions. I have yet to see a stupid question :-). In other words, ask away and I am sure somebody will help you. > > Of course I'm only ASSUMING it's the ROMS. There is not much else in the Most likely it is :-(. My expeirence is that while LSI devices are more reliable than the equivleant circuit made from MSI chips or discrete components, I do find that as the complexity of the IC goes up, the reliabiltiy goes down. In other words, a single-chip ROM is going to be mroe reliable than decoding the addresses and logically ORing the apporpirate termis using doiode and TTL, but the ROM chip will be less reliable tyhan the (much simpler) TTL chips used as the address decoder in the cartridge. > case though apart from a few caps and a logic chip or two. Is there any > quick technique to determine if it IS the ROMS and if so if any particular > ROM is faulty? My thought is roughly what yopu suggested. If you find a way to get the machine inot a machien code monitor with the ROM PAC in place, I would suggest looking at the address range occupied by each of the chips. An unadresssd chip will probasbly rread as all $FFs or something like that. So if an entire block reads aas $FF, then either that ROM is defective, or it's not being slected. a Loigc probe on the chip select pin will probably tell you which is the case. > > One way that comes to mine with the Sorcerer is to somehow prevent the > ROM-PAC from autostarting, then peer into the memory locations the ROM-PAC > occupies (with the inbuilt monitor) to see if any of the memory seems messed > up (with repeating patterns etc.). If NONE of the memory locations appear > accessible this would indicate it might be something OTHER than the ROMS > yes? (as it's unlikely all 4 ROMS would have developed a fault). Is this a > reasonable approach to start off? Hoiwever, it's not uncommon for a ROM to fail in such a way that it never outputs anything (just leaves the data lines floating, as though it's not there at all). Of course if the chip selection logic -- the little chips in the ROM PAC -- fails, you get the same behaviour. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 13:08:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:08:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis In-Reply-To: <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Jun 15, 11 10:17:52 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, progress on checking out this Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC.. > > I diescovered there was no way you could exit to the monitor program if you > had a hung ROM-PAC plugged in BUT....I figured out a way to check the > content of the ROM-PAC ROMS. > > In the Sorcerer the ROM-PAC occupies space from C000-DFFF using 4 chips. > Reading the docs I saw that the boot up sequence jumps to DFFD or DFFA > depending on if it's a warm or cold start. However, if it finds nothing > there, it assumes there is no ROM PAC attached and boots up the monitor. > YES! This means all I needed to do is remove the number 4 IC (D800-DFFF) > and I should be able to boot to the monitor and then examine the contents of > the three lower ICs. I could then substitute the number 4 IC for one of the > lower ones and examine its contents too. Soundn very sensible. > > I removed the number 4 chip, plugged in the ROM-PAC and booted. Success, I > was in the monitor. I then dumped the memory locations corresponding to the > ROMS. The two lower ICs (C000-CFFF) showed all different hex numbers. In > other words it looked like it contained good code. However, the third IC I often find doing an ASCII dump as well as a hex one helps. You can often spot keyword tables, error messages, etc. And if you see them repeated, it's likely there's some addressing problem so that the same lcoation appaar at 2 processor addresses. > (D000-D777) contained all zeros!! I then swapped over the D800-DFFF chip > I'd removed into the socket which originally contained the D000-D777 and > checked that number 4 chip. The code looked good and I could even see the > bootstrap code at the end at DFFD and DFFA (of course it was at location > D7FD and D7FA as I had this number 4 chip in socket 3). Right. Soundsl ike the address decoding logic is working fine, then. > > Conclusion. It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. I would agreewith you there. -tony From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 15 13:34:19 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:34:19 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> > Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise > intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about > some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no > longer around when faith steps into the room. That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is somehow "different". From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Wed Jun 15 13:39:48 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:39:48 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> On Jun 15, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer around when faith steps into the room. > > That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. > > I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is somehow "different". I believe in God because saying "Nobody Dammit!" sounds dumb. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 15 13:42:01 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> from Evan Koblentz at "Jun 15, 11 02:34:19 pm" Message-ID: <201106151842.p5FIg1u7014342@floodgap.com> >From Nazism to religion, didn't this thread Godwin itself from the beginning? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to not finish sentences, but now I ---------------------------------- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 13:55:02 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:55:02 +0100 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15/06/2011 18:50, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >>> I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt >>> side of the S100 expansion unit... >> >> Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard > > I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but > that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never > seen a secod one (or indeed another Sorceror). You're about 70 miles from one, I have a Sorceror and expansion about 15' from where I'm sitting :D -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 15 13:58:15 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 11:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Jun 15, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >>> Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer around when faith steps into the room. >> >> That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. >> >> I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is somehow "different". > > I believe in God because saying "Nobody Dammit!" sounds dumb. You are SO lucky I didn't have a mouthful of coffee just then. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jun 15 14:09:28 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:09:28 -0500 Subject: DEC paint color matching? Message-ID: <20110615190928.GF8128@n0jcf.net> Has anyone ever tried to color match spray paint to the DEC "taupe" color (ie, the color of the front of a {clean} RL02)? I've got a bunch of stuff now with scratches and rust which I'd like to attempt to touch up or repaint. Is there any sort of standard color code for that DEC color? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 15 14:15:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:15:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jun 15, 11 07:55:02 pm Message-ID: > > I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but > > that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never > > seen a second one (or indeed another Sorceror). > > You're about 70 miles from one, I have a Sorceror and expansion about 15' > from where I'm sitting :D Strangely, my eyesignt is not good enough to see a thing the size of a Sorceory 70 miles away (even if there was nothing in the way). -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 15:09:10 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:09:10 -0700 Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <738d65b70af13c53eb06a06a8a1a560d@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 15, at 11:14 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I removed the number 4 chip, plugged in the ROM-PAC and booted. >>> Success, I was in the monitor. I then dumped the memory locations >>> corresponding to the ROMS. The two lower ICs (C000-CFFF) showed all >>> different hex numbers. In other words it looked like it contained >>> good code. However, the third IC (D000-D777) contained all zeros!! >>> I then swapped over the D800-DFFF chip I'd removed into the socket >>> which originally contained the D000-D777 and checked that number 4 >>> chip. The code looked good and I could even see the bootstrap code >>> at >>> the end at DFFD and DFFA (of course it was at location D7FD and D7FA >>> as I had this number 4 chip in socket 3). >>> >>> Conclusion. It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. >>> >>> Next task. Unpack the EPROM burner and try to figure out how to use >>> it. >> >> Great work! >> >> Just a suggestion, one more thing you might check, as confirmation, is >> to place the suspect ROM chip in another location and look at the >> contents from there, to confirm that it is the ROM chip and not the >> ROM-selection circuitry or something particular to that chip position >> causing the problem (although it probably would show all-FFs if it was >> the selection circuitry). > > I thought I understood that he'd put the ROM he removed from socket 4 > (to > prevent the Pac auto-booting) into the location 3 and found he could > read that chip correctly. Which would seem to indicate that the > selection > circuitry is fine and that the original ROM #3 is defective. Right, that's checked then. I think I saw the addressess with x000 in them and thought he was using the lowest chip location for the test. From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Wed Jun 15 15:11:47 2011 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:11:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <626758.61406.qm@web81003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> And here I have had 5 of them at one time or another, currently 4 and have never seen the expansion or the monitor with the built in drives. David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com From: Adrian Graham To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, June 15, 2011 1:55:02 PM Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer On 15/06/2011 18:50, "Tony Duell" wrote: >> >>> I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt >>> side of the S100 expansion unit... >> >> Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard > > I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but > that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never > seen a secod one (or indeed another Sorceror). You're about 70 miles from one, I have a Sorceror and expansion about 15' from where I'm sitting :D -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 15 15:17:40 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110615130033.O87204@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Diane Bruce wrote: > Can I call Godwin on this thread? Please? ;-) Sure But, Mike explicitly makes an exception to his law when the discussion is actually about Nazis, not just a simile or metaphor. I don't understand, . . . Hollerith (it's too bad that he didn't make it to his 30th birthday :-), was of German ancestry, born in Buffalo, developed the hardware for the 1890 census, . . . but, the GERMAN "HOLLERITH" company was the foundation and technology of IBM?? Wars sure seem to be economically advantageous for big amoral corporations! Hypotheses: The GERMAN Hollerith company had in some way been a spinoff of the american Hollerith company? Watson's company changed name to INTERNATIONAL Business Machines when they mad their first NON-AMERICAN acquisition, not necessarily that that was the most important technology acquisition? (and/or coincidence that the name change was 1 year after the Dehomag acquisition?) mathematical algorithms: Q: When is Hollerith's next birthday? Q: How many is that? Q: Why is 1900 especially important to that calculation? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 15 15:29:26 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:29:26 +0100 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 15/06/2011 20:15, "Tony Duell" wrote: >>> I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but >>> that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never >>> seen a second one (or indeed another Sorceror). >> >> You're about 70 miles from one, I have a Sorceror and expansion about 15' >> from where I'm sitting :D > > Strangely, my eyesignt is not good enough to see a thing the size of a > Sorceory 70 miles away (even if there was nothing in the way). OK then, allow me - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Exidy/ -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:52:37 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:52:37 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106151842.p5FIg1u7014342@floodgap.com> References: <201106151842.p5FIg1u7014342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4DF91B95.7070509@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>From Nazism to religion, didn't this thread Godwin itself from the beginning? I think it's actually a reverse-Godwin. A Niwdog, if you like. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 15 15:50:32 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <20110615132413.W87204@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote: > There is that, there is also the possibility that no one really > thought anything of it. I've had the book sitting on a shelf for > years, and my wife just noticed it. Of course the shelf has only > been visable for about 2 years, but... There are many "whirligig" patterns, that are not necessarily affiliated with the logos of WW2. If you draw a square, then draw both diagonals, then color in every other created triangle, . . . (then put that logo design on the spine of an IBM 360/370 book, . . . A devoutly Jewish friend was designing and building a rotating bookcase, . . . until he glanced at the TOP view of it. Somebody needs to warn the world that all four bladed windmills , . . . With some careful selection of fonts and line lengths, you can find warning messages about Microsoft in vertical columns of the bible! Not to mention, that if you pick an appropriate character representation (5 bits works better than 8), you can follow the characters of PI out zillions of digits and find a Microsoft copyright message! 'course, where _I_ work, the question isn't "Are you paranoid?", it's "Are you paranoid enough?". From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 16:02:43 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:02:43 -0700 Subject: Hollerith birthdays / scratch Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110615130033.O87204@shell.lmi.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> <20110615130033.O87204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <19b92db19c44ccfb64c349570cbec064@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 15, at 1:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Hollerith (it's too bad that he didn't make it to his 30th birthday > :-), > > mathematical algorithms: > Q1: When is Hollerith's next birthday? > Q2: How many is that? > Q3: Why is 1900 especially important to that calculation? > He didn't even make it to his 20th birthday, no? A3: Century years are not leap years even though divisible by 4, unless divisible by 400 (..the arcane things one remembers). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 15 16:16:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:16:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Leap Years algorithms (Was: Hollerith birthdays / scratch Re: In-Reply-To: <19b92db19c44ccfb64c349570cbec064@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> <20110615130033.O87204@shell.lmi.net> <19b92db19c44ccfb64c349570cbec064@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: > He didn't even make it to his 20th birthday, no? As you might have guessed, I was too lazy to look it up > A3: Century years are not leap years even though divisible by 4, unless > divisible by 400 (..the arcane things one remembers). As a "Computer Math" problem, I gave different levels of credit for the answers on whether they took 1900 into account, and whether they took 2000 into account. I'm not sure, but I assume that 1900 leap-year exception was why some Apple time/date data structures start counting in 1904. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 15 16:26:08 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:26:08 +0100 Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DF92370.40900@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/06/2011 19:55, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 15/06/2011 18:50, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >>>> I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt >>>> side of the S100 expansion unit... >>> Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard >> I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but >> that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never >> seen a secod one (or indeed another Sorceror). > > You're about 70 miles from one, I have a Sorceror and expansion about 15' > from where I'm sitting :D Even closer to where my current one came from (about 3-4 miles from where Tony lives) and not much more from where my original one went when I sold it in the early 80s. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 15 16:38:24 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 14:38:24 -0700 Subject: Leap Years algorithms (Was: Hollerith birthdays / scratch Re: In-Reply-To: <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615132327.GA87039@night.db.net> <20110615130033.O87204@shell.lmi.net> <19b92db19c44ccfb64c349570cbec064@cs.ubc.ca> <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <3e89c68f07fce77ade91baa2c576b429@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 15, at 2:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> He didn't even make it to his 20th birthday, no? > > As you might have guessed, I was too lazy to look it up .. and I was too lazy to do the calculations of your other questions. >> A3: Century years are not leap years even though divisible by 4, >> unless >> divisible by 400 (..the arcane things one remembers). > > As a "Computer Math" problem, I gave different levels of credit for the > answers on whether they took 1900 into account, and whether they took > 2000 > into account. > > I'm not sure, but I assume that 1900 leap-year exception was why some > Apple time/date data structures start counting in 1904. > .. ok for another 89 years then. I remember learning about this ca. 1982 when I was revising some code. There we go: int t_isleap( year ) int year; { return( year%4==0 && (year%100!=0 || year%400==0) ); } From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 15 17:16:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:16:00 -0400 Subject: DEC paint color matching? In-Reply-To: <20110615190928.GF8128@n0jcf.net> References: <20110615190928.GF8128@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DF92F20.6070402@neurotica.com> On 6/15/11 3:09 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Has anyone ever tried to color match spray paint to the DEC "taupe" > color (ie, the color of the front of a {clean} RL02)? > > I've got a bunch of stuff now with scratches and rust which I'd like to > attempt to touch up or repaint. > > Is there any sort of standard color code for that DEC color? I have this information in my notes. This is from a thread on this list several years ago. -Dave ------------------------------------------ DEC Grey color: Per Joe Moir (jcmparts on eBay) from an email dated 10/12/2005: "We get ours from Raabe 800-966-7580. It is called low gloss gray. They make it for us special." ----------------------------------------------- System Paint DEC U.S. Area Information Center QRL, Quick Reference List Supplies: PAINT, for PDP and VAXES Updated: 16-APR-1998 Article Expiration Date: 27-MAY-2000 Paints are ordered from Randolf Products, Harlestat, NJ 201-438-3700 Specify Product type, Randolf Products will provide color match. Part Description: DEC Part Number: Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Gray 49-01524-01 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Old Digital Blue/gray 49-01524-02 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Black 49-01524-03 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,End Panel Grey 49-01524-04 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Bright Copen Blue 49-01524-05 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Terra Cotta 49-01524-06 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Scale Grey 49-01524-07 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Blasi Blue 49-01524-08 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Topaz 49-01524-09 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mullen Blue 49-01524-10 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Perferred Red 49-01524-11 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Digital Brown 49-01524-12 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Charcoal 49-01524-13 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mid-Range Gray 49-01524-14 Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mid,Dark Gray 49-01524-15 ------------------------------------------ -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 15 17:23:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:23:45 -0700 Subject: Leap Years algorithms (Was: Hollerith birthdays / scratch Re: In-Reply-To: <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> References: , <19b92db19c44ccfb64c349570cbec064@cs.ubc.ca>, <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DF8CE81.9164.14D653E@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2011 at 14:16, Fred Cisin wrote: > As a "Computer Math" problem, I gave different levels of credit for > the answers on whether they took 1900 into account, and whether they > took 2000 into account. I guess I would have asked "what country" and "in what context"? Remember that many eastern European Churches didn't change until 1923. (Turkey adopted the Gregorian only in 1926; Ethiopia still uses a calendar with no exceptions to the 4-year leap year rule, so it's only 2003 there.). And some adopted the "New Julian Calendar", which is a bit more accurate than the one we in the west use. Then there's the Juche calendar used by the PRK, where our 1997 is the year 1 (the year of Kim Il Sung's birth) The algorithm for leap years is this in the New Julian: isLeapYear = (year MOD 4 = 0) IF isLeapYear THEN IF year MOD 100 = 0 THEN Century = (year / 100) MOD 9 isLeapYear = (Century=2) OR (Century=6) END IF END IF Thus, the Gregorianr and New Julian calendars will be out of whack in 2800, where that year will be a leap year in the NJ, but not in the Gregorian. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 15 20:33:45 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:33:45 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> Message-ID: At 2:34 PM -0400 6/15/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise >>intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about >>some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is >>no longer around when faith steps into the room. > >That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise >intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their >common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. > >I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in >god(s) is somehow "different". I can't grasp how otherwise intelligent, rational people, especially techies, don't believe in God. The alternative is illogical, as we understand better than most, just how complex things really are. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 15 20:59:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 18:59:44 -0700 Subject: Leap Years algorithms (Was: Hollerith birthdays / scratch Re: In-Reply-To: <4DF8CE81.9164.14D653E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net>, <4DF8CE81.9164.14D653E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DF90120.2098.2132052@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2011 at 15:23, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Then there's the Juche calendar used by the PRK, where our 1997 is the > year 1 (the year of Kim Il Sung's birth) Now that's just plain stupid. Kim Il Sung was born April 15, 1912--and that's where year 1 of the Juche calendar starts. The calendar was adopted in 1997. AFAIK, the division into months and rules for leap years follow that of the Gregorian calendar. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 15 22:49:42 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:34 PM -0400 6/15/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise >>> intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some >>> things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer >>> around when faith steps into the room. >> >> That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise >> intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common >> sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. >> >> I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is >> somehow "different". > > I can't grasp how otherwise intelligent, rational people, especially techies, > don't believe in God. The alternative is illogical, as we understand better > than most, just how complex things really are. > Because we're not gullible? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 15 23:12:47 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 00:12:47 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com><4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net><4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <2ACFDF01C0DB4AE19406AD2DA89210ED@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 11:49 PM Subject: Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>> >> >> I can't grasp how otherwise intelligent, rational people, especially >> techies, don't believe in God. The alternative is illogical, as we >> understand better than most, just how complex things really are. >> > Because we're not gullible? > > g. >From my perspective believing in something greater then yourself keeps most people out of trouble (be it GOD, family, nation, etc). When somebody starts organizing that perspective into an infallible religion that makes all other religions false you start to have problems (especially when those people use the word of GOD for their own amusement, persecution of people they don't like, and to make a shitload of tax free money). >From a techie standpoint you can't have a couple dozen religions based on the written infallible word of GOD that all contradict each other and have known incorrect teachings and believe it. Basically they can't all be correct, but they can all be wrong. Complexity is just a bunch of simple things going on at the same time and interacting with each other. Anybody who knows complex math can simulate something very complex with a relatively simple equation. To those without a mathematical background its too hard to figure out so it must be magic! The longer humankind keeps digging into how things work, the more we will turn that magic into equations that don't look so complex after all. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 16 00:32:46 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 22:32:46 -0700 Subject: Life, the Universe and all that other stuff (was RE: Nazi System 360/370 book...) Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:34 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... > > At 2:34 PM -0400 6/15/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise > >>intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about > >>some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no > >>longer around when faith steps into the room. > > > >That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise > >intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their > >common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. > > > >I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in > >god(s) is somehow "different". > > I can't grasp how otherwise intelligent, rational people, especially techies, > don't believe in God. The alternative is illogical, as we understand better > than most, just how complex things really are. > That's an importantly profound observation about the question at hand. Considering the idea of 'least hypothesis', the idea of a consciousness behind the nature of the Universe - i.e. God - seems to be far more straightforward than the mass of conflicting hypotheses to explain the origin of the Universe and the (known) life forms within it. Taken one by one, and within constraints, many of those hypotheses do make sense - for instance, the idea of natural selection. That makes sense as the dynamics of a working system. But the origin of the system it assumes as its basis is not well explained by that same hypothesis, nor are apparently 'disruptive' events within it, e.g. the rise of human-order intelligence (or even the existence of higher-order life). Unfortunately, 'belief in God' is too often tied to 'belief' in a lot of other stuff, much of which seems to be contrived to ensure that those who work in the business of Organized Religion don't miss any meals. That tends to give it a bad name, especially among thinking people. I will argue there's a difference between 'unsupported conclusions' and 'faith.' The latter is more similar to selection of a set of axioms. Axioms are exempt from proof (although showing one is invalid is good for nuking anything premised thereupon), but should be atomic in nature to be useful in logical discourse. Once you show a proof for an article of faith, it enters into the realm of 'known facts.' Unsupported conclusions seem disjoint from the realm of 'known facts' and even from that of 'faith,' assumed to be self-evident without a supporting framework of axioms, hypothesis and logical process. (See, social conservatives.) Given the nature of this discussion, I'm going to the effort to make the following disclaimer: the above is my personal opinion and does not represent the official or casual opinion of my employer. -- Ian From doug at doughq.com Wed Jun 15 06:14:14 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 21:14:14 +1000 Subject: An Exidy Sorcerer ROM-PAC diagnosis In-Reply-To: <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> <12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: Very clever!! If you have this level of diagnostic ability, then you will find burning eproms a cake walk! Doug ! On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 8:17 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Ok, progress on checking out this Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC.. > > I diescovered there was no way you could exit to the monitor program if you > had a hung ROM-PAC plugged in BUT....I figured out a way to check the > content of the ROM-PAC ROMS. > > In the Sorcerer the ROM-PAC occupies space from C000-DFFF using 4 chips. > Reading the docs I saw that the boot up sequence jumps to DFFD or DFFA > depending on if it's a warm or cold start. However, if it finds nothing > there, it assumes there is no ROM PAC attached and boots up the monitor. > YES! This means all I needed to do is remove the number 4 IC (D800-DFFF) > and I should be able to boot to the monitor and then examine the contents of > the three lower ICs. I could then substitute the number 4 IC for one of the > lower ones and examine its contents too. > > I removed the number 4 chip, plugged in the ROM-PAC and booted. Success, I > was in the monitor. I then dumped the memory locations corresponding to the > ROMS. The two lower ICs (C000-CFFF) showed all different hex numbers. In > other words it looked like it contained good code. However, the third IC > (D000-D777) contained all zeros!! I then swapped over the D800-DFFF chip > I'd removed into the socket which originally contained the D000-D777 and > checked that number 4 chip. The code looked good and I could even see the > bootstrap code at the end at DFFD and DFFA (of course it was at location > D7FD and D7FA as I had this number 4 chip in socket 3). > > Conclusion. It's the number 3 IC which is faulty. > > Next task. Unpack the EPROM burner and try to figure out how to use it. > > Terry (Tez) > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:41 PM > Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer > > > I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked >>> through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when >>> switching off (or something). >>> >> >> Or perhaps more useful, when switching ON! (sorry..typo) >> >> Terry (Tez) >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" < >> terry at webweavers.co.nz> >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:22 PM >> Subject: Re: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer >> >> >> I must get mine set up again. From where I am sitting I can see the fornt >>>> side of the S100 expansion unit... >>>> >>> >>> Nice. I would love an expension unit for the Sorcerer but is was hard >>> enough to actually find the computer itself here in New Zealand. I think it >>> will have to remain one of those wistful thoughts. >>> >>> I've decided to have a crack at fixing this BASIC ROM-PAC over the next >>> few months. This is probably a good opportunity to actually LEARN about >>> burning EPROMS and I'm sure I'm going to need to do so if I want to keep my >>> 70's and 80's computers going for the next 20 years. >>> >>> It's going to be a big learning curve for me as my knowledge is still >>> fragmented in this area. Also it's likely to be a slow project as there are >>> lots of competing activities at the moment. However, hopefully you guys can >>> assist if I need to ask what (to you) might seem stupid newbie-type >>> questions. >>> >>> Of course I'm only ASSUMING it's the ROMS. There is not much else in the >>> case though apart from a few caps and a logic chip or two. Is there any >>> quick technique to determine if it IS the ROMS and if so if any particular >>> ROM is faulty? >>> >>> One way that comes to mine with the Sorcerer is to somehow prevent the >>> ROM-PAC from autostarting, then peer into the memory locations the ROM-PAC >>> occupies (with the inbuilt monitor) to see if any of the memory seems messed >>> up (with repeating patterns etc.). If NONE of the memory locations appear >>> accessible this would indicate it might be something OTHER than the ROMS >>> yes? (as it's unlikely all 4 ROMS would have developed a fault). Is this a >>> reasonable approach to start off? >>> >>> I don't know if I can disable the autostart but then I haven't looked >>> through the manual yet. Hopefully I can by holding some keys down when >>> switching off (or something). >>> >>> Anyway...I'll report any progress. >>> >>> Terry >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ----- >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1375 / Virus Database: 1513/3693 - Release Date: 06/10/11 >> >> > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From jlobocki at gmail.com Wed Jun 15 15:20:22 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 15:20:22 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <20110615154521.GA8342@night.db.net> <4DF8DAD1.6060905@gmail.com> Message-ID: there are swastikas (some blatant, some stylized or not easily seen) all over the place, people find them in everything from old hardwood floors to old brick buildings, a lot of them in new york. people have also claimed the "columbia" logo on jackets and such has a clear swastika in it. there are even buildings shaped like them on iirc a naval academy somewhere, google earth found it. I know I have seen quite a few of them when I worked as a cable installer, many middle eastern and eastern cultures use it as a sign of peace and happiness, they paint them in the corner of door threshholds, I remember one customer was pissed because they had just bought the house and had to scrub off all the swastikas from the doors. not trying to start a flamewar, but believe it or not IBM was in with the nazis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust I am surprised they don't throw that in with their "we sent a computer into space" and other "we did this first" commericals... On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 15 Jun 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Diane Bruce wrote: >> >>> Can we move on to the next weird offbeat conspiracy theory? This one is >>> boring. >>> >> >> OTOH, there is no conspiracy, but I find reading about potential meanings >> / sources of this particular book's symbol* interesting (Zane, do you have a >> photo?) >> >> * and that includes the possibility that it's entirely random and intended >> for decorative purposes only, of course :-) >> > > I'll have to see about taking a photo of it tonight. Due to the time frame > of when the book would have been published, I'm inclined to think it is > just some random design, and someone not > thinking. Still it's strange. It's also strange to have something like > that on the spine of the book given that it's from a publisher I > recognized. > > Zane > > From trenchdweller at att.net Wed Jun 15 22:54:05 2011 From: trenchdweller at att.net (Paul Popelka) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:54:05 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... Message-ID: <003d01cc2bd9$09cba3a0$6563a8c0@geek> Reino was an instructor at Cal Poly SLO when I was studying computer science there in the 1970's. He was a nice old guy. I learned 360 BAL from his class. I think he passed away in 2006. If I'm not mistaken I contributed to the writing of that book. I doubt he was a nazi. Paul > So my wife wanted to show me a book tonight. Turned out it was one > of mine, she'd noticed something interesting. > > System 360/370 > Job Control Language > and the > Access Methods > by Reino Hannula > > What's up with the Swastika on the spine of the book? It's made up > of little triangles, but it's definitely a swastika. Very strange. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 01:38:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 23:38:31 -0700 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DF94277.334.3125D63@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jun 2011 at 15:20, joe lobocki wrote: > not trying to start a flamewar, but believe it or not IBM was in with > the nazis > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust That book (as well as the Annals article that preceded it) has been duly noted. But then, so was Prescott Bush (the father of George HW Bush), Henry Ford, and a whole host of others doing business with the Nazis. Some Americans considered it good business. Can we please kill the thread now? --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jun 16 03:07:04 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:07:04 +0100 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com><4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net><4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> Message-ID: Zane I think a logical person might first ask 'What is God' Personally I am neutral, neither believing or disbelieving. There are two quotes that come to mind. "There is more evil done in the name of God than that of the Devil" "God exists only in the mind of the believer. But to him he is real." That said I return to my collection of DEC Computers. Very much the work of men. Many of whom I knew. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 16 June 2011 02:34 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; General Discussion: Subject: Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... At 2:34 PM -0400 6/15/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise >>intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about >>some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is >>no longer around when faith steps into the room. > >That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise >intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their >common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. > >I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in >god(s) is somehow "different". I can't grasp how otherwise intelligent, rational people, especially techies, don't believe in God. The alternative is illogical, as we understand better than most, just how complex things really are. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jun 16 06:23:22 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:23:22 -0500 Subject: DEC paint color matching? In-Reply-To: <4DF92F20.6070402@neurotica.com> References: <20110615190928.GF8128@n0jcf.net> <4DF92F20.6070402@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110616112322.GT2435@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (06/15/2011 at 06:16PM -0400), Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/15/11 3:09 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >Has anyone ever tried to color match spray paint to the DEC "taupe" > >color (ie, the color of the front of a {clean} RL02)? > > > >I've got a bunch of stuff now with scratches and rust which I'd like to > >attempt to touch up or repaint. > > > >Is there any sort of standard color code for that DEC color? > > I have this information in my notes. This is from a thread on > this list several years ago. Cool! Thanks Dave. So, which of these "grey" colors is the off-white of an M9642 "corporate rack"? I'm trying to match the off-white or as someone told me "toupe" color of the trim on that rack. This color is also very close to or the same as the front of an RL02 or the trim on an RX01/RX02. The later of which has a lot of rust on it here ;-) Chris > ------------------------------------------ > DEC Grey color: > Per Joe Moir (jcmparts on eBay) from an email dated 10/12/2005: > "We get ours from Raabe 800-966-7580. It is called low gloss gray. > They make it for us special." > ----------------------------------------------- > System Paint > DEC U.S. Area Information Center > QRL, Quick Reference List > Supplies: PAINT, for PDP and VAXES > Updated: 16-APR-1998 Article Expiration Date: 27-MAY-2000 > Paints are ordered from Randolf Products, Harlestat, NJ 201-438-3700 > Specify Product type, Randolf Products will provide color match. > > Part Description: DEC Part Number: > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Gray 49-01524-01 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Old Digital Blue/gray 49-01524-02 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Black 49-01524-03 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,End Panel Grey 49-01524-04 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Bright Copen Blue 49-01524-05 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Terra Cotta 49-01524-06 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Scale Grey 49-01524-07 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Blasi Blue 49-01524-08 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Topaz 49-01524-09 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mullen Blue 49-01524-10 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Perferred Red 49-01524-11 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Digital Brown 49-01524-12 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Charcoal 49-01524-13 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mid-Range Gray 49-01524-14 > Paint (Lacquer), Touch-up, Aerosol,Mid,Dark Gray 49-01524-15 -- Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 07:42:35 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:42:35 +0100 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 15 June 2011 19:39, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Jun 15, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >>> Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer around when faith steps into the room. >> >> That's exactly how I feel about "God". ?I cannot grasp why otherwise intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. >> >> I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is somehow "different". > > I believe in God because saying "Nobody Dammit!" sounds dumb. It does? Why? And do you seriously think "a magic sky-fairy did it and ran away" is /less/ dumb? I always liked this definition of christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 07:50:45 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:50:45 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110616125045.GA45360@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 06:33:45PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:34 PM -0400 6/15/11, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise ... > > I can't grasp how otherwise intelligent, rational people, especially > techies, don't believe in God. The alternative is illogical, as we > understand better than most, just how complex things really are. So, you are saying that because things are complex, something must have created this complexity? So this thing whatever it is, would have to be more complex to create the complexity we see. So what created this thing that is even more complex than the universe? Tell me this was a POE. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jun 16 07:56:43 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:56:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616125045.GA45360@night.db.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <20110616125045.GA45360@night.db.net> Message-ID: XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX X X X X X X X X X X XXXXX X X X XXXXX X X X X X X X X X X XXXXX X XXXXX X XXXXX X X From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 08:10:41 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:10:41 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <20110616125045.GA45360@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110616131041.GA48097@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:56:43AM -0400, Mike Loewen wrote: > > XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX X > X X X X X X X X X > XXXXX X X X XXXXX X X X > X X X X X X X > XXXXX X XXXXX X XXXXX X X That would make a lot of noise on a asr-33. ;-) But yes I agree. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 08:47:25 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 06:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <20110616125045.GA45360@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > > XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX X > X X X X X X X X X > XXXXX X X X XXXXX X X X > X X X X X X X > XXXXX X XXXXX X XXXXX X X > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Jun 16 08:55:16 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:55:16 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:42 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 15 June 2011 19:39, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >> >> On Jun 15, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> >>> >>>> Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer around when faith steps into the room. >>> >>> That's exactly how I feel about "God". I cannot grasp why otherwise intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. >>> >>> I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is somehow "different". >> >> I believe in God because saying "Nobody Dammit!" sounds dumb. > > It does? Why? And do you seriously think "a magic sky-fairy did it and > ran away" is /less/ dumb? Yes, seriously. Try to yell that out loud after you've smacked your fingers with a hammer, burned yourself with a soldering iron, or driven a pair of RM03s halfway across the continent without setting the head locks and then attempted to mount a pack. It's really long and unwieldy. "God Dammit!" is short and easy to say. I think the winner here is clear. For the sentence to make sense, God must exist. Therefore, God exists so that I can swear out loud after I've done something dumb. It makes me feel better than just sitting there thinking about what a dumbass I am, so it serves a purpose. It also seems to be just as good a reason as most of the other ones people have come up with. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:03:45 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:03:45 +0100 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 16 June 2011 14:55, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Jun 16, 2011, at 7:42 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> On 15 June 2011 19:39, Daniel Seagraves wrote: >>> >>> On Jun 15, 2011, at 1:34 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>>> >>>>> Most of the time I spend time trying to understand why an otherwise intelligent person could come to such unsupported conclusions about some things. It's as if their logical thinking breaks down, and is no longer around when faith steps into the room. >>>> >>>> That's exactly how I feel about "God". ?I cannot grasp why otherwise intelligent, rational people -- especially techies -- suspend their common sense to believe in an invisible man in the sky. >>>> >>>> I welcome a debate with anyone here who claims that believing in god(s) is somehow "different". >>> >>> I believe in God because saying "Nobody Dammit!" sounds dumb. >> >> It does? Why? And do you seriously think "a magic sky-fairy did it and >> ran away" is /less/ dumb? > > Yes, seriously. Try to yell that out loud after you've smacked your fingers with a hammer, burned yourself with a soldering iron, > or driven a pair of RM03s halfway across the continent without setting the head locks and then attempted to mount a pack. > It's really long and unwieldy. "God Dammit!" is short and easy to say. I think the winner here is clear. > > For the sentence to make sense, God must exist. Therefore, God exists so that I can swear out loud after I've done something dumb. > It makes me feel better than just sitting there thinking about what a dumbass I am, so it serves a purpose. > It also seems to be just as good a reason as most of the other ones people have come up with. Excellent. I like it. I personally amended my curses to "gods damnit" (etc.) so the christians don't pounce on me and tell me I do secretly believe every time I lose my temper. Gods plural seems to instantly set one aside from almost every major religious group except the Hindu. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From staylor at mrynet.com Thu Jun 16 09:13:17 2011 From: staylor at mrynet.com (Scott G. Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:13:17 -0500 Subject: Looking for Nissho N1100 PDP-11 CPU upgrade documentation Message-ID: <20110616141317.GA30017@mrynet.com> I've recently acquired a Nissho N1100 CPU upgrade for a UNIBUS PDP-11. Does anyone have documentation on this boardset? (If responding directly to me via email, please use bub7734 at yahoo.com -- I can't manage to get a subscription approved for that address, so can't post from there) TIA! -scott From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 09:22:34 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 09:22:34 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <20110616125045.GA45360@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> >> XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX X >> X X X X X X X X X >> XXXXX X X X XXXXX X X X >> X X X X X X X >> XXXXX X XXXXX X XXXXX X X >> > > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) Ctrl-S :-) From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jun 16 09:26:45 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:26:45 -0400 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4DFA12A5.3060302@attglobal.net> On 06/16/2011 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I personally amended my curses to "gods damnit" (etc.) so the > christians don't pounce on me and tell me I do secretly believe every > time I lose my temper. Gods plural seems to instantly set one aside > from almost every major religious group except the Hindu. "gods dammit" was used in the updated "Battlestar Galactica" series. Barry From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 10:00:32 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:00:32 +0100 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA12A5.3060302@attglobal.net> References: <201106150537.p5F5bjTQ018364@imr-ma04.mx.aol.com> <4DF8DEBD.6010400@neurotica.com> <4DF8F31E.7040500@verizon.net> <4DF8FB2B.1050201@snarc.net> <01D6B412-6D1D-4540-9D82-F4A4AA695C97@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFA12A5.3060302@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On 16 June 2011 15:26, Barry L. Kline wrote: > On 06/16/2011 10:03 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > >> I personally amended my curses to "gods damnit" (etc.) so the >> christians don't pounce on me and tell me I do secretly believe every >> time I lose my temper. Gods plural seems to instantly set one aside >> from almost every major religious group except the Hindu. > > "gods dammit" was used in the updated "Battlestar Galactica" series. Yes indeed. I was doing it first, though, honest! :?) I draw the line at "frack", though. ISTM that for a US series, the whole polytheist-mainstream and heretical monotheistic underground must have been quite transgressive over there. Is that so? It doesn't have much cultural relevance in the rest of the English-speaking world, which is fairly multicutural and religion-free. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 10:17:18 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:17:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. If we want to talk religion why not talk about Commodore vs. Atari Apple vs. IBM CP/M vs. DOS 80x86 vx 68xxx The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 16 10:29:23 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:29:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Jun 16, 11 08:17:18 am" Message-ID: <201106161529.p5GFTNrv012276@floodgap.com> > I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. > If we want to talk religion why not talk about > > Commodore vs. Atari Commodore versus Spectrum. That's my kind of religious war. Also, vi >>> emacs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Light is faster than sound. Some folks look bright until you hear them speak. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 10:30:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:30:57 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 8:17, Christian Liendo wrote: > I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. > If we want to talk religion why not talk about > > Commodore vs. Atari > Apple vs. IBM > CP/M vs. DOS > 80x86 vx 68xxx > > The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. Ones' complement arithmetic vs. two's complement--or where to put the apostrophe? --Chuck From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Jun 16 10:34:46 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:34:46 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> , <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1308238486.8586.9.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Thu, 2011-06-16 at 08:30 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2011 at 8:17, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. > > If we want to talk religion why not talk about > > > > Commodore vs. Atari > > Apple vs. IBM > > CP/M vs. DOS > > 80x86 vx 68xxx > > > > The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. > > Ones' complement arithmetic vs. two's complement--or where to put the > apostrophe? > Endianess arguments are always amusing. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 10:36:12 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Big Endian vs. Little Endian From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 10:40:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Christian Liendo wrote: > I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. > If we want to talk religion why not talk about > > Commodore vs. Atari Commodore Rules! Atari Drools! :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 16 10:50:42 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Jun 16, 11 08:36:12 am" Message-ID: <201106161550.p5GFogKe013260@floodgap.com> > Big Endian vs. Little Endian At the end of the credits for the original Connectix Virtual PC for Mac is my favourite quip on the subject, "Endian Little Hate We." That said, my two favourite architectures (PPC and 6502) are traditionally big-endian and little-endian respectively, though in fairness PPC can be bi-endian. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If your happiness depends on anyone else, you've got a problem. -- R. Bach - From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 16 10:52:34 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:52:34 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: PERL vs. real programming languages :-p ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo [christian_liendo at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. If we want to talk religion why not talk about Commodore vs. Atari Apple vs. IBM CP/M vs. DOS 80x86 vx 68xxx The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 16 10:59:00 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 08:59:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from Ian King at "Jun 16, 11 08:52:34 am" Message-ID: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> > PERL vs. real programming languages :-p If you capitalize Perl as an acronym, you don't use it much. ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Some days you're the bug, and some days you're the windshield. ------------- From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 11:41:26 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:41:26 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> References: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > PERL vs. real programming languages :-p > > > DTL vs. TTL ;) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 11:56:55 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:56:55 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> > PERL vs. real programming languages ?:-p >> > > DTL vs. TTL ?;) Bronze vs Iron. -ethan From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 12:02:35 2011 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Life, the Universe and all that other stuff Message-ID: <207998.30960.qm@web114618.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Bringing this back more on topic (but still not exactly about "classic" computing): 2011 Isaac Asimov Memorial Debate on The Theory of Everything http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYeN66CSQhg That is a fantastically interesting symposium to watch in its entirety, but these parts relate to reality as a computer simulation: Dr. Jim Gates at: 0:09:20 Who he is 1:00:21 What he's found 1:34:15 More specifics about what he's found (binary error correction codes in string theory equations) In the Science Channel show Through the Wormhole, another scientist found that certain characteristics of quantum mechanics can be explained by reality being a computer simulation. He noted that within the next fifty years, the computational power of the human brain will be available in a laptop that consumes the same amount of power or less and that this rate of growth in computational power far exceeds evolutionary increases in the human brain size/computational power being limited currently by the size of the birth canal. He extrapolates that process over billions of years to posit a higher intelligence programming a mega-computer to create our reality. Wild stuff to think about. In another Science Channel show on the nature of reality, I believe it was stated that a room-sized quantum computer may have the power of a conventional computer the size of the universe. As a result of this and the limitations of growth in biological computational power through evolutionary means (although biological intelligence created in vitro may be a means around this once we actually understand the nature biological intelligence), the most likely form of an advanced technological civilization would be a computer with AI. So, any ET civilization older than ours that we'd contact would most likely be AI. Dr. Gates stated in his introduction that Asimov's stories had inspired him to become a scientist. Here's one of them that follows the above conjectures, a story which blew my mind when I read it as a youngster: The Last Question by Isaac Asimov http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 12:10:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:10:33 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DF9D699.14148.644A9F@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 11:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Bronze vs Iron. Analog vs. digital... From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 16 12:32:27 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:32:27 -0700 Subject: Reino Hannula In-Reply-To: <003d01cc2bd9$09cba3a0$6563a8c0@geek> References: <003d01cc2bd9$09cba3a0$6563a8c0@geek> Message-ID: From: Paul Popelka Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:54 PM > Reino was an instructor at Cal Poly SLO when I was studying computer science > there in the 1970's. > He was a nice old guy. I learned 360 BAL from his class. I think he passed > away in 2006. If I'm > not mistaken I contributed to the writing of that book. I doubt he was a > nazi. My only computer-related class as an undergraduate was 360/370 assembler programming (which had several prerequisites, but since I learned FORTRAN IV, COBOL, and PL/1--not yet PL/I--in high school, and 360 assembler the summer after I graduated, the insturctor waived those). We used the first edition of Hannula's textbook. I still have it, packed away in the storage locker. (For that matter, I still have my dusty decks from that class. When we get a card reader going, either a CR11 or one of the ones on the Sigmas, I'm gonna do something with them. ;-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 16 12:39:44 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:39:44 -0700 Subject: Leap Years algorithms In-Reply-To: <4DF8CE81.9164.14D653E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <19b92db19c44ccfb64c349570cbec064@cs.ubc.ca>, <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> <4DF8CE81.9164.14D653E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 3:24 PM > The algorithm for leap years is this in the New Julian: > isLeapYear = (year MOD 4 = 0) > IF isLeapYear THEN > IF year MOD 100 = 0 THEN > Century = (year / 100) MOD 9 > isLeapYear = (Century=2) OR (Century=6) > END IF > END IF > Thus, the Gregorianr and New Julian calendars will be out of whack in > 2800, where that year will be a leap year in the NJ, but not in the > Gregorian. Umm, that's backwards. 28 % 9 = 1. It will be a leap year in the Gregorian and NOT in the New Julian. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 12:44:08 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:44:08 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... Message-ID: On Jun 16, 2011 1:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 16 Jun 2011 at 11:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Bronze vs Iron. > > Analog vs. digital... > Floating Point vs. Fixed Point From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 16 12:49:41 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:49:41 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Perl roolz, Python droolz! ;-> (Seriously? syntactically significant white space??? Really??????) -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... PERL vs. real programming languages :-p ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo [christian_liendo at yahoo.com] Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:17 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. If we want to talk religion why not talk about Commodore vs. Atari Apple vs. IBM CP/M vs. DOS 80x86 vx 68xxx The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 12:54:37 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:54:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Top Posting vs. Bottom Posting From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 16 12:57:02 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 10:57:02 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Christian Liendo Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:17 AM > I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. > If we want to talk religion why not talk about > Commodore vs. Atari > Apple vs. IBM > CP/M vs. DOS > 80x86 vx 68xxx > The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. I used to participate in the Emacs wars (the civil wars, GNU vs. XEmacs, as well as denigrating the visual interface to ex), but the capper was a comment in a keyboard flamefest on some newsgroup (alt.folklore.computers, most likely, but it could have been an Emacs group) in which the winner (as far as I'm concerned) noted: "Keyboards are like assholes: Everybody's got one, but no one wants to touch the other guy's." As is said in the AI koans, "I was enlightened," and withdrew from all flamewars. (But Perl vs. Python is so tempting... :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 13:10:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:10:25 -0700 Subject: Leap Years algorithms In-Reply-To: References: , <4DF8CE81.9164.14D653E@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DF9E4A1.11099.9B1A9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 10:39, Rich Alderson wrote: > Umm, that's backwards. 28 % 9 = 1. It will be a leap year in the > Gregorian and NOT in the New Julian. Yes, you're correct. When I wrote that, I was kind of fuzzy around my mental edges (as evidenced by my stupid Juche calendar posting). --Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 13:12:53 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:12:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <943580.20688.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/16/11, Christian Liendo wrote: > Top Posting vs. You forgot middle posting. > Bottom Posting From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Jun 16 13:16:47 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:16:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > Perl roolz, Python droolz! ;-> > > (Seriously? syntactically significant white space??? Really??????) That's not the worst part! 1) mutators for built-in objects don't return the object, so you can't do more than one thing to an anonymous object; if you want to do 2 things you need to assign it to a variable and then repeatedly do things via the variable. 2) exceptions are not exceptional. You want to break out of a loop? That's an exception. Even a loop from 1 to 10 will stop looping by throwing an exception. 3) PyUnit tests are weaker than Test::More tests. A PyUnit test ends as soon as the first assertion fails (whereas Test::More tests let you continue with the rest of the test), and there is no way to declare the number of assertions you expect to test. Alexey From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:26:59 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:26:59 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DFA4AF3.1070005@gmail.com> Ian King wrote: > PERL vs. real programming languages :-p > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian Liendo [christian_liendo at yahoo.com] > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:17 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... Top posting vs. bottom posting ;-) (did you do that on purpose?) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:27:43 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:27:43 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DFA4B1F.3050202@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2011 at 8:17, Christian Liendo wrote: > >> I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. >> If we want to talk religion why not talk about >> >> Commodore vs. Atari >> Apple vs. IBM >> CP/M vs. DOS >> 80x86 vx 68xxx >> >> The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. > > Ones' complement arithmetic vs. two's complement--or where to put the > apostrophe? Where the sun don't shine? ;-) Personally: CP/M just seemed more "accessible" to me than (MS) DOS, in the same way that m68k did over x86 - not without their quirks, of course, but better suited to the way my brain worked. When comparing systems it's probably best to qualify things with a timeframe, I always think. I lost faith in Apple quite some time ago, but have always admired the early machines for their simplicity and hackability. I liked the Amiga more than the ST, but don't know enough about Atari's earlier machines to make a call there. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:28:39 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:28:39 -0500 Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <943580.20688.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <943580.20688.qm@web121616.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DFA4B57.1070408@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > You forgot middle posting. | horizontal posting? (and rats, someone got there first with a top posting comment :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 13:31:31 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:31:31 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: >On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Perl roolz, Python droolz! ;-> >> >> (Seriously? ?syntactically significant white space??? ?Really??????) Yeah... that _really_ irks me. I spent too much time in the 1980s chasing down lineprinter output alignment issues because "XX" often renders differently than "XX" on different terminals and printers. Why would I want something invisible to me be meaningful to the compiler/interpreter? (We often put terminals in the mode to display glyphs for whitespace to track those issues down). > 2) exceptions are not exceptional. You want to break out of a loop? That's > an exception. Even a loop from 1 to 10 will stop looping by throwing an > exception. That's merely annoying by comparison, but it is annoying. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 16 13:41:28 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 11:41:28 -0700 Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've really basically given up on this... At 10:54 AM -0700 6/16/11, Christian Liendo wrote: >Top Posting vs. Bottom Posting It's just not worth the effort of fighting, thanks to so many people using broken products from Microsoft. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 14:34:05 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:34:05 -0400 Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > I've really basically given up on this... > > > At 10:54 AM -0700 6/16/11, Christian Liendo wrote: > >> Top Posting vs. Bottom Posting >> > > CISC vs RISC ;) From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Jun 16 14:48:42 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:48:42 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> On 6/16/2011 11:40 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Christian Liendo wrote: > >> I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. >> If we want to talk religion why not talk about >> >> Commodore vs. Atari > > Commodore Rules! Atari Drools! :D > > g. > Hahaha. Yup. I remember the Amiga vs 1040-ST arguments. (the Amiga was so much better, I'm not sure even why there was an argument) Keith From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 14:58:25 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:58:25 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: Who is the knob that started this holy war thread anyway? We should be arguing about which brand of cement we will pour down his throat. __ Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:23:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:23:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: New rest-home resident: An Exidy Sorcerer In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jun 15, 11 09:29:26 pm Message-ID: > >>> I got it with my Sorceror. I think I paid \pounds 10.00 for the lot, but > >>> that's when classic computers were actually affordable :-) I've never > >>> seen a second one (or indeed another Sorceror). > >> > >> You're about 70 miles from one, I have a Sorceror and expansion about 15' > >> from where I'm sitting :D > > > > Strangely, my eyesignt is not good enough to see a thing the size of a > > Sorceory 70 miles away (even if there was nothing in the way). > > OK then, allow me - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Exidy/ Err, no. That's a _picture_ of an Exidy Sorceror (I assume). I've seen plenty of such pictures. I do not doubt that you own a Sorceror, or that other people here do to. But the only Sorceror I've seen 'in the silicon' is the one I own. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:53:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:53:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> from "Christian Liendo" at Jun 16, 11 08:36:12 am Message-ID: > > Big Endian vs. Little Endian Postifix ('RPN') .vs. Infix ('algebraic;) :-) -tony (Who can't use an infix calculator). From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:51:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:51:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616131041.GA48097@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jun 16, 11 09:10:41 am Message-ID: > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:56:43AM -0400, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > > XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX X > > X X X X X X X X X > > XXXXX X X X XXXXX X X X > > X X X X X X X > > XXXXX X XXXXX X XXXXX X X > > That would make a lot of noise on a asr-33. ;-) Yes, it did. Next time, please use different characters, not all 'X's to equalise the wear on my type cylinder. Getting moderatly on-topic, does anyone remember doing graphgics with a daisywheel printer? Most such printers allowed you to position the carriage and feed the paper accurately, and you printed '.' charactes in the appropraite places. IIRC, the ApplePlot progam for the Apple ][ included a high-res screen dump routing to a Qume Sprint 5 printer which did this. Made a helluva racket. I also remember (and may still have somewhere), plastic daisywheels with a metal insert on the '.' character to extend the life of the wheel when used like this. I was amazed when reading the dcoumetaiton for the HP9871 daisywheel printer (no, I don;t have one, which I did). that it had set of plotting commands. Typical HP... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:27:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:27:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Leap Years algorithms (Was: Hollerith birthdays / scratch Re: In-Reply-To: <20110615141103.C87204@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 15, 11 02:16:00 pm Message-ID: > > A3: Century years are not leap years even though divisible by 4, unless > > divisible by 400 (..the arcane things one remembers). > > As a "Computer Math" problem, I gave different levels of credit for the > answers on whether they took 1900 into account, and whether they took 2000 > into account. It amused me about 12 years ago that devices that assumed that every year divisiby by 4 was a leap year would get the year 2000 correct (and this was the only end-of-century year thy were likely to have to handle) whereas devices that implemetns the 'years fivisible by 100 are not leap years' would get it wrong. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:55:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:55:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Jun 16, 11 12:41:26 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > PERL vs. real programming languages :-p > > > > > > > > DTL vs. TTL ;) TTL (or other MSI) .vs PLDs/FPGAs Microcontrollers .vs. random logic -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 14:45:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:45:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 16, 11 09:22:34 am Message-ID: > > Gene Buckle wrote: > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > >> > >> XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX XXXXX X > >> X X X X X X X X X > >> XXXXX X X X XXXXX X X X > >> X X X X X X X > >> XXXXX X XXXXX X XXXXX X X > >> > > > > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) > > Ctrl-S > :-) 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) -tony From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 15:19:07 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:19:07 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110616201907.GA93902@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:36:12AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > Big Endian vs. Little Endian Middle Endian vs. both Little and Big Endian. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 15:24:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:24:57 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616201907.GA93902@night.db.net> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com>, <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, <20110616201907.GA93902@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFA0429.1070.1164761@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:19, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:36:12AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > > Big Endian vs. Little Endian > > Middle Endian vs. both Little and Big Endian. Binary vs. decimal (for those old enough to remember) From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 15:27:00 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:27:00 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110616202700.GB93902@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:57:02AM -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Christian Liendo > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:17 AM > > > I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. > > If we want to talk religion why not talk about > > > Commodore vs. Atari > > Apple vs. IBM > > CP/M vs. DOS > > 80x86 vx 68xxx > > > The good old days, where zealots ranted on technology. > > I used to participate in the Emacs wars (the civil wars, GNU vs. XEmacs, I remember when our system admin refused to load an editor, it was way too bloated he said, it would slow down the system. He was refusing to load up vi. (PDP-11/45 Unix release 7) So. Frankly, I just laugh at silly editor wars. Remember kids, emacs is for coding, vi is for conf files, ed is for freaking out unix n00bs. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 15:31:50 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:31:50 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA0429.1070.1164761@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110616201907.GA93902@night.db.net> <4DFA0429.1070.1164761@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110616203150.GC93902@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 01:24:57PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:19, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:36:12AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > Big Endian vs. Little Endian > > > > Middle Endian vs. both Little and Big Endian. > > Binary vs. decimal (for those old enough to remember) 1401 -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 16 15:39:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:39:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA0429.1070.1164761@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 16, 11 01:24:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:19, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:36:12AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > Big Endian vs. Little Endian > > > > Middle Endian vs. both Little and Big Endian. > > Binary vs. decimal (for those old enough to remember) 1248 bcd .vs. 1242 bcd 1248 bcd .vs. XS3 decimal .vs. bi-quinary And more recently hex .vs. octal -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 15:45:51 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:45:51 -0500 Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2011/6/16 Tony Duell : >> > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) >> >> Ctrl-S >> :-) > > 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) +++ATH0 From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 15:55:09 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:55:09 -0400 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 Message-ID: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> You lot seen this? http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 15:59:43 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 13:59:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > 2011/6/16 Tony Duell : >>>> With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) >>> >>> Ctrl-S >>> :-) >> >> 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) > > +++ATH0 > NO CARRIER -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 16:00:39 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:00:39 -0400 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:45:51PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > 2011/6/16 Tony Duell : > >> > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) ... > > 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) > > +++ATH0 And those of us who remember why this did not work on some modems but others? -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 16:03:52 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:03:52 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... Ahhhhhh I miss the old BBS flamewar days... good times, good times.... Keith M wrote: > On 6/16/2011 11:40 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >>> I have not seen a more useless off topic thread in a while. >>> If we want to talk religion why not talk about >>> >>> Commodore vs. Atari >> >> Commodore Rules! Atari Drools! :D >> >> g. >> > > Hahaha. > > Yup. I remember the Amiga vs 1040-ST arguments. > > (the Amiga was so much better, I'm not sure even why there was an > argument) > > Keith > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 16:02:42 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:02:42 -0400 Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DFA6F72.8090800@atarimuseum.com> Paper or Plastic ;-) Dan Roganti wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > >> I've really basically given up on this... >> >> >> At 10:54 AM -0700 6/16/11, Christian Liendo wrote: >> >> >>> Top Posting vs. Bottom Posting >>> >>> >> > > CISC vs RISC ;) > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 16:28:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:28:12 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616203150.GC93902@night.db.net> References: <20110616201907.GA93902@night.db.net>, <4DFA0429.1070.1164761@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110616203150.GC93902@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFA12FC.30548.1503006@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:31, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 01:24:57PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:19, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 08:36:12AM -0700, Christian Liendo wrote: > > > > Big Endian vs. Little Endian > > > > > > Middle Endian vs. both Little and Big Endian. > > > > Binary vs. decimal (for those old enough to remember) > > 1401 Not precisely--the 1401 had a weird system of decimal+binary for addressing. So decimal, sort-of. 1620 was all decimal (8421), however, as was the 7070. (2-of-5). --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 16 16:29:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:29:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA6F72.8090800@atarimuseum.com> References: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA6F72.8090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110616142842.O26310@shell.lmi.net> BIG-Endian V LITTLE-Endian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 16:31:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:31:22 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616202700.GB93902@night.db.net> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, , <20110616202700.GB93902@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFA13BA.19665.1531396@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:27, Diane Bruce wrote: > I remember when our system admin refused to load an editor, it was way > too bloated he said, it would slow down the system. He was refusing to > load up vi. An editor--AN EDITOR?! You'd only use an editor if you were too lazy to walk over to the keypunch. Besides, it's impolite to take control of the system console to run an editor if there are other people on the machine. --Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 16:31:06 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... > Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 16:52:28 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:52:28 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> Says you... punk! ;-P Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >> > Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) > > g. > From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 16:56:45 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 14:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Says you... punk! ;-P > > > > Gene Buckle wrote: >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>> >> Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) >> >> g. Bit words from a top-posting little weasel! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jun 16 17:01:32 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:01:32 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> On 06/16/2011 01:44 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > On Jun 16, 2011 1:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Floating Point vs. Fixed Point vi[m] vs. emacs Barry From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 17:09:18 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:09:18 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> References: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Barry L. Kline wrote: > On 06/16/2011 01:44 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > On Jun 16, 2011 1:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > Floating Point vs. Fixed Point > > > vi[m] vs. emacs > > microcode vs. assembly From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 16 17:10:13 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:10:13 -0700 Subject: The ULTIMATE VS. Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA6F72.8090800@atarimuseum.com> References: <151643.10022.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA6F72.8090800@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: At 5:02 PM -0400 6/16/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >Paper or Plastic ;-) > > >Dan Roganti wrote: >>On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 2:41 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> >>>I've really basically given up on this... >>> >>> >>>At 10:54 AM -0700 6/16/11, Christian Liendo wrote: >>> >>> >>>>Top Posting vs. Bottom Posting >>>> >>>> >>> >> >>CISC vs RISC ;) EMACS vs. vi :-) Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 16 17:13:58 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:13:58 -0700 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> Message-ID: At 4:55 PM -0400 6/16/11, Diane Bruce wrote: >You lot seen this? > >http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf That's the most interesting bit of computer gear I've seen in a long time! Up there with Chameleon 64. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 17:27:36 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 17:27:36 -0500 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> Message-ID: I know someone who developed a pc emulator for the PDP-11 back in the late 80's or early 90's and had it approved by the FAA to replace 11/55's used in older flight simulators. Paul On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 4:55 PM -0400 6/16/11, Diane Bruce wrote: >> >> You lot seen this? >> >> http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf > > That's the most interesting bit of computer gear I've seen in a long time! > ?Up there with Chameleon 64. > > Zane > > > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| OpenVMS Enthusiast ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?| Photographer ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? My flickr Photostream ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? | > | ? ? ? ? ?http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ ? ? ? ? ? | > From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 17:40:13 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:40:13 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA13BA.19665.1531396@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20110616202700.GB93902@night.db.net> <4DFA13BA.19665.1531396@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110616224013.GA12307@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 02:31:22PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2011 at 16:27, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > I remember when our system admin refused to load an editor, it was way ... > An editor--AN EDITOR?! You'd only use an editor if you were too lazy > to walk over to the keypunch. Besides, it's impolite to take control papertape vs. cards. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 16 17:41:15 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> References: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <20110616154045.H26310@shell.lmi.net> > vi[m] vs. emacs Electric Pencil V Wordstar From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 16 17:46:09 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:46:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616224013.GA12307@night.db.net> from Diane Bruce at "Jun 16, 11 06:40:13 pm" Message-ID: <201106162246.p5GMk99N013634@floodgap.com> > papertape vs. cards. I see your papertape vs. cards and raise you keyboard vs. toggles. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 16 17:49:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20110616154709.N26310@shell.lmi.net> AC V DC evolve in the ocean V evolve on land plant V animal From db at db.net Thu Jun 16 18:12:47 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:12:47 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <201106162246.p5GMk99N013634@floodgap.com> References: <20110616224013.GA12307@night.db.net> <201106162246.p5GMk99N013634@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20110616231247.GA16175@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:46:09PM -0700, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > papertape vs. cards. > > I see your papertape vs. cards and raise you keyboard vs. toggles. toggles vs. plugboard! -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 16 18:17:04 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:17:04 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <3590E99AEFA247FCB60067AB40B96386@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:31 PM Subject: Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >> > Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) > > g. I guess you need to put a time frame for that debate, game designers took ages to get the most out of the C64 so early stuff was about the same for both. I would suspect the early 800's were better built then the early C64's but I could be wrong. Mac OS 7 vs Windows 3.1 anybody? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 18:20:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:20:11 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net>, Message-ID: <4DFA2D3B.20578.1B6B61E@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 18:09, Dan Roganti wrote: > microcode vs. assembly I admit to that one escaping me as an either-or. I've certainly used assemblers for microcode. And many assemblers generate code for microcoded instructions. VHDL vs. Verilog --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 18:41:49 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:41:49 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> References: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4DFA94BD.4020402@atarimuseum.com> Edlin vs Edit Barry L. Kline wrote: > On 06/16/2011 01:44 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> On Jun 16, 2011 1:11 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >> > > >> Floating Point vs. Fixed Point >> > > > vi[m] vs. emacs > > > Barry > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 18:43:03 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:43:03 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DFA9507.7060502@atarimuseum.com> I like being on top, only wiggly worms live at the bottom ;-) Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Says you... punk! ;-P >> >> >> >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>>> >>> Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) >>> >>> g. > > Bit words from a top-posting little weasel! :) > > g. > From fryers at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 19:47:01 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:47:01 +0800 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: RS232 vs Current Loop. Serial vs. Parallel. Delay lines vs CRTs. Valves vs Transistors. Relays vs Valves. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 16 20:02:05 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:02:05 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 16, at 5:47 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > RS232 vs Current Loop. > > Serial vs. Parallel. > > Delay lines vs CRTs. > > Valves vs Transistors. I'll argue with the inclusion of that one in a listing of arguments. In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and reliability were sufficient for the application. > Relays vs Valves. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jun 16 20:35:18 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:35:18 +1200 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESS programming issue? References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: Thanks for the encouragement RE: the Exidy Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC. This weekend I'll unpack the ROM burner, read the docs that come with it and take it from there. In the meantime here is another thing to ponder. I had problems loading in machine-language (not BASIC of course) software from the tapes I got given with the machine. I tried a number but the none seem to load successfully expect for the shortest program. Ok, so I figured the tapes were just old and degraded. Googling around and trying things out I found I could make sound files (WAV) from cassette binary archives of Sorcerer software using the MESS emulator. Hooray! BUT...loading these into the Sorcerer via soundcard seemed tricky. No matter how much I fiddled with the volume and tone controls, an error always seemed to appear about 45 seconds to a minute into the run. Very fine adjustments made a slight difference, but the only program I could get to load in was actually a copy of the short file (Martian Invaders) that I'd successfully loaded via real tape. Off the top of my head I think it was just over a minute long (it could be longer). I looked at the WAV file with Audacity. They were nice square waves with a good amptitude. They certainly LOOKED ok. Hmmmm.... After scratching my head a bit, I started to wonder if it was a timing issue? I wondered if somehow the Sorcerer was eventually losing synch with the input data. Acting on this hunch, using Audacity I converted the sound file so it was 5% faster. No improvement. Then I tried 5% slower. Wow, I found that the load got further. Instead of falling over after about 45 seconds it was about 1.30 seconds or so. The volume also didn't seem quite as critical. Eventually after playing around and finding the limits I discovered that if I made the WAV files 8.5% slower I'd always get a successful load no matter how large the file (actually tolerance seemed to be between 7.5% and 9.5%). The more I moved outside those tolerance parameters, the quicker a load failed. >From this I came to a conclusion that it indeed was a synch/timing issue. Now the question is this. 1. Was it caused by an error in code in the MESS emulator, in that the sound files were created with the timing 8.5% faster than it should be OR.... 2. Is there something out of whack with the cassette interface in my machine (a cap out of tolerance maybe) which gives an incorrect timing/synch on load. Making the files 8.5% slower counteracted this fault, so a successful load was (always) accomplished? Any thoughts on this? At first I assumed it was just an error in MESS. That someone just got the timing wrong when writing the tape output routine. Thinking about it, now I'm not so sure? I couldn't seem to get any of the REAL tapes to load except for Martian Invasion (the shortest one). Happily as well as having a real tape, Martian Invasion was also in the binary archive. Before changing the speed, I could also get the Martian Invasion WAV to load with fine volume fiddling. So maybe it is the Sorcerer that's out of synch rather than MESS? I don't know, but it would be good to find out which one of the hypothese is correct. I might try to digitize the tapes. If I get nice square wavs, I'll see if I can slow these down by 8.5%. If I do, then can successfully load them into the Sorcerer, this would indicate that the problem is with my machine rather than MESS. Terry (Tez) From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jun 16 20:42:57 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:42:57 -0500 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (06/16/2011 at 04:55PM -0400), Diane Bruce wrote: > You lot seen this? > > http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf Interesting. The CCI1016 (DHV11, DZQ11, DHQ11 replacement) looks like a Comtrol RocketPort... which is a 16-port PCI multiport serial card I helped develop back in '94. It appears as though they have put some kind of LSI-11 on PCI bus and are then using a mix of off-the-shelf and custom PCI adapters for the various peripherals. Maybe the CPUs are actually a PC running an emulator?? Chris -- Chris Elmquist From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 20:43:30 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:43:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616154045.H26310@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DFA7D3C.4050705@attglobal.net> <20110616154045.H26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: >> vi[m] vs. emacs > > Electric Pencil V Wordstar *hiss* You dare! WordStar!!!!1111oneoneone!!!1 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 20:44:33 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 18:44:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <3590E99AEFA247FCB60067AB40B96386@dell8300> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com><4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <3590E99AEFA247FCB60067AB40B96386@dell8300> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene Buckle" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 5:31 PM > Subject: Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... > > >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>> >> Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) >> >> g. > I guess you need to put a time frame for that debate, game designers took > ages to get the most out of the C64 so early stuff was about the same for > both. I would suspect the early 800's were better built then the early C64's > but I could be wrong. > > Mac OS 7 vs Windows 3.1 anybody? Machine Always Crashes, If Not, The Operating System Hangs. Oh wait. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From david at classiccomputing.com Thu Jun 16 20:46:34 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:46:34 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 15:58:25 -0400 > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 > book... > > Who is the knob that started this holy war thread anyway? We should be > arguing about which brand of cement we will pour down his throat. > __ > Will Oh now, I don't think it would be nice to call anyone out ... Evan Koblentz! ... Now on to some nice political discussion. Evan, you want to start that one off?! ; ) Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast From alexeyt at freeshell.org Thu Jun 16 20:50:42 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:50:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESS programming issue? In-Reply-To: References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > Eventually after playing around and finding the limits I discovered that if I > made the WAV files 8.5% slower I'd always get a successful load no matter how > large the file (actually tolerance seemed to be between 7.5% and 9.5%). The > more I moved outside those tolerance parameters, the quicker a load failed. I don't know if this is the real cause of your problem or not (given that you seem to have the same problem with WAVs and pre-recorded tapes), but the 8.5% number is interesting. Two of the most common sample rates supported by audio cards are 44.1 kHz and 48 kHz; they differ by about 8.8%. Is it possible that the MESS output is intended for a 44.1 kHz sample rate but is actually being played out of your sound card at 48 k samples/sec? That could explain why slowing it down by 8.5% would make it OK again... Alexey From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 20:58:34 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>> >> Not really. ?Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) > > Says you... punk! ;-P > Says my C-64 (after I load "Software Automatic Mouth" and tell it what to say). ;-) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 21:01:54 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:01:54 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616154709.N26310@shell.lmi.net> References: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> <20110616154709.N26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > evolve in the ocean ? V ? evolve on land > plant ?V ?animal Matter v Anti-matter. -ethan From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jun 16 21:03:14 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:03:14 +1200 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz><213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz> > Is it possible that the MESS output is intended for a 44.1 kHz sample rate > but is actually being played out of your sound card at 48 k samples/sec? > That could explain why slowing it down by 8.5% would make it OK again... Hmm...there's a thought. I'll check that out. (I'll have to figure out how!) Terry (Tez) From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 21:10:32 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:10:32 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DFAB798.3010002@atarimuseum.com> Yeah yeah yeah.... Atari's had SAM too, along with the Alien Voice Box and the free Votrax speech box that was detailed in an issue of Antic that you could build yourself, then there was the Covox box, the Parrot and blah blah blah :-P ;-) Man, I'm itching to pull out my old Hayes 1200 and dial up a BBS right now! :-) Flame on!!! Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > >> Gene Buckle wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> >>> >>>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>>> >>>> >>> Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) >>> >> Says you... punk! ;-P >> >> > > Says my C-64 (after I load "Software Automatic Mouth" and tell it what to say). > > ;-) > > -ethan > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 16 21:10:40 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:10:40 -0600 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DFAB7A0.9000205@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/16/2011 7:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was much > debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty quickly > embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and reliability were > sufficient for the application. > But how soon one forgets, that with out the humble crystal diode many of the electronic brains would never have been built. >> Relays vs Valves. Also could not tube like a VFD been made to handle digital signals with a non linear plate curve rather than as display device? Ben. PS. I'm out, all I have is two punched cards and a tribble. From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 16 21:11:19 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:11:19 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4DFAB7C7.6090407@atarimuseum.com> Calculator or Slide Ruler ;-) Simon Fryer wrote: > RS232 vs Current Loop. > > Serial vs. Parallel. > > Delay lines vs CRTs. > > Valves vs Transistors. > > Relays vs Valves. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 16 21:12:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:12:45 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com>, , <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4DFA55AD.21354.254B39D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jun 2011 at 18:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: > In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was > much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty > quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and > reliability were sufficient for the application. Did someone say AUDIO? Zip cord vs. Monster Cable vs. solid silver speaker wire. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 16 21:14:43 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:14:43 -0600 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFAB7C7.6090407@atarimuseum.com> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFAB7C7.6090407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4DFAB893.7020001@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/16/2011 8:11 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Calculator or Slide Ruler ;-) Plate cuves ... From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 21:25:34 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFAB798.3010002@atarimuseum.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> <4DFAB798.3010002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah yeah yeah.... Atari's had SAM too, along with the Alien Voice Box and > the free Votrax speech box that was detailed in an issue of Antic that you > could build yourself, then there was the Covox box, the Parrot and blah blah > blah :-P > > > ;-) > > Man, I'm itching to pull out my old Hayes 1200 and dial up a BBS right now! > :-) Flame on!!! Telnet to aor.retroarchive.org. It's not hooked up to a modem, but it IS a real IIe. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 16 21:26:18 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 19:26:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA55AD.21354.254B39D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com>, , <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> <4DFA55AD.21354.254B39D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2011 at 18:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was >> much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty >> quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and >> reliability were sufficient for the application. > > Did someone say AUDIO? > > Zip cord vs. Monster Cable vs. solid silver speaker wire. > Stretched out coathangers FTW. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 21:40:45 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:40:45 -0500 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:45:51PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> 2011/6/16 Tony Duell : >> >> > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) > ... >> > 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) >> >> +++ATH0 > > And those of us who remember why this did not work on some modems but others? I had plenty of non-Hayes-compatible modems - Ventel comes to mind (it was targeted for the dumb terminal crowd, not the personal-computer-BBSer)... I think the model I had did *not* include a dialer (it was an external accessory). Or did you mean Hayes vs Hayes clones? -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 16 22:28:10 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 20:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (06/16/2011 at 04:55PM -0400), Diane Bruce wrote: >> You lot seen this? >> >> http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf > > Interesting. The CCI1016 (DHV11, DZQ11, DHQ11 replacement) looks like > a Comtrol RocketPort... which is a 16-port PCI multiport serial card > I helped develop back in '94. It appears as though they have put some > kind of LSI-11 on PCI bus and are then using a mix of off-the-shelf and > custom PCI adapters for the various peripherals. > > Maybe the CPUs are actually a PC running an emulator?? Something just occurred to me. If you're using a PDP-11 in a Real-Time environment and need to replace it, the replacements I've seen that rely on an emulator don't seem to mention if the whole replacement is itself RT. In other words, the OS may be RT, but not the OS upon which the virtual hardware is built. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ken at seefried.com Thu Jun 16 23:15:42 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:15:42 -0400 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFAD4EE.6060708@seefried.com> > http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf Interesting. If you look at the daughtercard on the PDQ-1000 (next to the probably-a-pentium-ish-CPU-fan), it looks pretty much like a PC/104 connector (upside down, of course) and the back panel port config is oh-so familiar. I'm betting a bog-standard embedded X86 system (new enough to have PCI) with a QBus interface running an emulator. As to the PDQ-2000 and -3200, I bet those are just Intel motherboards in a rackmount case. Chris Elmquist pointed out the CCI1016 looks (to me as well) to be a Comtrol RocketPort. The CEI-1000 is pretty clearly one of the myriad of Intel desktop Ethernet adapters. Their DQP-1100, -1300 and -1500 are DRV11 work-alikes made by Logical. From ken at seefried.com Thu Jun 16 23:16:34 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:16:34 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370, book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFAD522.8030805@seefried.com> Edison v. Tesla From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu Jun 16 23:42:54 2011 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 21:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fw: Fwd: Commodore CBM Pet 8032 Message-ID: <420554.67343.qm@web81003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I received this and as I am not in the UK, I'm passing it along. Contact them directly if you can help them out. David Williams http://www.trailingedge.com -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Commodore CBM Pet 8032 Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:47:17 +0100 From: 0 Hello there, I live in England and own an old Commodore CBM Pet 8032 computer. Ten years ago it was working fine and today I was clearing house and decided to turn it on before trashing it. It did come to life but has lots of unrecognized characters at bottom half of screen, and when I type anything on keyboard it mostly replies with "?SyntaxC13" or something of this nature. Is there anywhere in the UK you know of where people will be interested in this machine ? As it doesnt appear to be working correctly, I have no real wish to "Ebay" the item. It would be a shame to throw this out. Thanks, Paul. From ragooman at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 23:56:20 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:56:20 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> <20110616154709.N26310@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Matter v Anti-matter. > > Warp Drive vs. Ion Propulsion From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jun 16 12:35:58 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 12:35:58 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <201106161559.p5GFx0eZ014808@floodgap.com> Message-ID: apples vs oranges On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:56 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:41 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Cameron Kaiser >wrote: > > > >> > PERL vs. real programming languages :-p > >> > > > > DTL vs. TTL ;) > > Bronze vs Iron. > > -ethan > From doug at doughq.com Thu Jun 16 18:46:55 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 09:46:55 +1000 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA9507.7060502@atarimuseum.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA9507.7060502@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: :-) Me To Sense Makes Posting Top On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:43 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > I like being on top, only wiggly worms live at the bottom ;-) > > > > Gene Buckle wrote: > >> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> >> Says you... punk! ;-P >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> >>>> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>>> >>>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>>>> >>>>> Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) >>>> >>>> g. >>>> >>> >> Bit words from a top-posting little weasel! :) >> >> g. >> >> -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From doug at doughq.com Thu Jun 16 21:18:55 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:18:55 +1000 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz> <12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: Can you listen to the tones? You should be able to hear 8.5% higher. Doug On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Is it possible that the MESS output is intended for a 44.1 kHz sample >> rate but is actually being played out of your sound card at 48 k >> samples/sec? That could explain why slowing it down by 8.5% would make it OK >> again... >> > > Hmm...there's a thought. I'll check that out. (I'll have to figure out > how!) > > Terry (Tez) > > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From doug at doughq.com Thu Jun 16 21:21:43 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:21:43 +1000 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFAB798.3010002@atarimuseum.com> References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> <4DFAB798.3010002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model 100....... And - just playing with systems. You would *never* guess what my day job is now :-) Doug On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:10 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Yeah yeah yeah.... Atari's had SAM too, along with the Alien Voice Box and > the free Votrax speech box that was detailed in an issue of Antic that you > could build yourself, then there was the Covox box, the Parrot and blah blah > blah :-P > > > ;-) > > Man, I'm itching to pull out my old Hayes 1200 and dial up a BBS right now! > :-) Flame on!!! > > > > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum >> wrote: >> >> >>> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) >>>> >>>> >>> Says you... punk! ;-P >>> >>> >>> >> >> Says my C-64 (after I load "Software Automatic Mouth" and tell it what to >> say). >> >> ;-) >> >> -ethan >> >> >> > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From doug at doughq.com Thu Jun 16 21:24:36 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:24:36 +1000 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA55AD.21354.254B39D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> <4DFA55AD.21354.254B39D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 12:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 16 Jun 2011 at 18:02, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was > > much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty > > quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and > > reliability were sufficient for the application. > > Did someone say AUDIO? > > Zip cord vs. Monster Cable vs. solid silver speaker wire. > Vs $300/foot OCF power cables.... From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 00:56:08 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:56:08 -0500 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <4DFAD4EE.6060708@seefried.com> References: <4DFAD4EE.6060708@seefried.com> Message-ID: wonder what that must cost? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 01:01:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 23:01:21 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2011 at 0:56, Dan Roganti wrote: > Warp Drive vs. Ion Propulsion Fish vs. Fowl Soup vs. Salad --Chuck From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Fri Jun 17 01:01:21 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Thu, 16 Jun 2011 22:01:21 -0800 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4dfad4ee.6060708@seefried.com> Message-ID: If you have to ask, you can't afford it :^). > -----Original Message----- > From: tdk.knight at gmail.com > Sent: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 00:56:08 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 > > wonder what that must cost? ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 01:41:31 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 02:41:31 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Ones' complement arithmetic vs. two's complement--or where to put the > apostrophe? > > > Positive Logic Design vs. Negative Logic Design From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 17 02:23:49 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:23:49 +0100 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz><213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4DFB0105.5030404@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/06/2011 03:03, Terry Stewart wrote: >> Is it possible that the MESS output is intended for a 44.1 kHz sample >> rate but is actually being played out of your sound card at 48 k >> samples/sec? That could explain why slowing it down by 8.5% would make >> it OK again... > > Hmm...there's a thought. I'll check that out. (I'll have to figure out > how!) Sorecerers are usually pretty good at reading tapes, so /something/ is definitely wrong. To see if its a problem with the sample rate, you could try recording something from the Sorcerer and see what happens when you play it back (at the same sample rate obviously!). From the monitor, you can just save a chunk of memory. Saving part of the ROM and loading it back is useful -- it always contains what amounts to pseudo-random data (rather than a whole lot of 0x00, or a whole of 0xFF, which you might have in RAM if you've not been running a program). A command to save 16 tape blocks would be SA TEST E000 EFFF Another thing you can try is connecting the EAR socket to the MIC socket, set it to SAVE something and watch the LED, which should go out while the Sorcerer is sending data. I've usually found that doesn't quite give the best results unless you use an attenuator, but at least it demonstrates that most of the hardware is correctly set up (or not!). The tech manual has a section on testing and if necessary adjusting the cassette interface circuitry, pages 31-33. There's also a write/read test program on page 31, which is short enough to enter as hex data. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 03:00:50 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:00:50 -0700 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFB09B2.6030601@brouhaha.com> Diane Bruce wrote: > You lot seen this? > http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf And also notice the "NuVAX" legend on a box in one of the photos. No mention of that on their web site, as far as I can tell. From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 17 03:03:04 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 01:03:04 -0700 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DFB0A38.9030805@brouhaha.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > Maybe the CPUs are actually a PC running an emulator?? That's certainly what it looks like. The Qbus product appears to be either a custom x86-based board, or perhaps a standard small-form-factor x86 board with a custom bus adapter. The large non-Qbus product looks like it's a normal PC. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jun 17 06:34:55 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:34:55 +1200 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz><213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz> <4DFB0105.5030404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <125E516FF1164E92B792ADEC846E951C@vshack> Thanks Peter, Doug and Alexey I know which hypothesis is the correct one now. It was MESS., rather than a problem with my machine. I found the Sorcerer saved data and reloads it ok. I loaded in a large MESS-sourced Sorcerer program in WAV format through the sound card (slowed by 8.5%), saved it out to a real cassette, then loaded it back in again. Perfect! So record and playback were in sync Next I played a tape of Adventureland and the WAV file of adventureland. With the MESS file reduced 8.5% they took about the same time. The original MESS WAV was about 15 seconds shorter! I then listened to a tape of Adventureland, the original MESS wav of Adventureland and the 8.5% slowed WAV of Aventureland. The latter seemed closer to the pitch of the tape. Then I changed tape recorders and found I could load some of the large program tapes (like Adventureland) anyway. HOWEVER, I could have saved myself all this trouble if I'd checked the MESS Sound Properties first. Not the sound card but the sound configuration in MESS itself. The sampling rate was set at 48000 (Duh!). You were on to it Alexey. Thanks for mentioning that or I might not have thought to check it (MESS has a HUGE number of configurable properties). Well, mystery solved and I've learnt something. I now know to check on sampling rates if I ever output to WAV from emulators like this again! Terry (Tez) From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Fri Jun 17 06:53:49 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 06:53:49 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> On Jun 17, 2011, at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Jun 2011 at 0:56, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> Warp Drive vs. Ion Propulsion > > Fish vs. Fowl > > Soup vs. Salad > What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? You guys disappoint me. From michael.passer at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 07:41:38 2011 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:41:38 -0400 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:45:51PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> 2011/6/16 Tony Duell : > >> >> > With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) > > ... > >> > 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) > >> > >> +++ATH0 > > > > And those of us who remember why this did not work on some modems but > others? > > I had plenty of non-Hayes-compatible modems - Ventel comes to mind (it > was targeted for the dumb terminal crowd, not the > personal-computer-BBSer)... I think the model I had did *not* include > a dialer (it was an external accessory). > > Or did you mean Hayes vs Hayes clones? > > -ethan > I believe the reason it didn't work on some modems is that Hayes had a patent on the use of an escape sequence (+++) with guard time. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:25:45 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:25:45 +0100 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 16 June 2011 20:53, Tony Duell wrote: > -tony (Who can't use an infix calculator). Really? So you can't read or write algebraic equations, either? Because if you can type it, you have therefore shown that can press buttons in that order - which is how calculators work. Personally, at a wet-behind-the-ears 43y old, I've never used an RPN calculator, but I know that I don't really understand RPN and trying to unpack equations and rewrite them in RPN was extremely hard work for me... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:32:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:32:33 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <63786.35610.qm@web113517.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4DFA5E1A.4010600@verizon.net> <4DFA6FB8.5070702@atarimuseum.com> <4DFA7B1C.2070602@atarimuseum.com> <4DFAB798.3010002@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 9:21 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > 100....... ?And - just playing with systems. Why the lift? Quick getaway? -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:32:46 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:32:46 +0100 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On 17 June 2011 12:53, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 17 Jun 2011 at 0:56, Dan Roganti wrote: >> >>> Warp Drive ?vs. ?Ion Propulsion >> >> Fish vs. Fowl >> >> Soup vs. Salad >> > > What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? > You guys disappoint me. For amusement value, there's a clip of me & a friend discussing Lord of the Rings versus Harry Potter in this video - 45sec in: -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 08:34:54 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 08:34:54 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? > You guys disappoint me. Tea, Earl Grey, Hot v Romulan Ale. -ethan From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jun 17 08:37:00 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 06:37:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... Message-ID: <546985.93358.qm@web113501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Kirk vs. Picard, Opps... Wrong group.. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 09:05:22 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:05:22 +0100 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 17/06/2011 14:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Daniel Seagraves > wrote: >> What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? >> You guys disappoint me. > > Tea, Earl Grey, Hot v Romulan Ale. Which makes me wonder why did Picard always state "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot", I mean do they not have macros or pre-programmed settings in the 24th centuary so he could say "normal please" :) :) :) :) Cheers. Phill. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:10:32 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:10:32 +0100 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On 17 June 2011 15:05, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 17/06/2011 14:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Daniel Seagraves >> ?wrote: >>> >>> What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? >>> You guys disappoint me. >> >> Tea, Earl Grey, Hot ?v ?Romulan Ale. > > Which makes me wonder why did Picard always state "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot", I > mean do they not have macros or pre-programmed settings in the 24th centuary > so he could say "normal please" :) :) :) :) You have to be /very/ careful with automation. It was tried once. It wasn't good. When the 'Drink' button is pressed it makes an instant but highly detailed examination of the subject's taste buds, a spectroscopic analysis of the subject's metabolism, and then sends tiny experimental signals down the neural pathways to the taste centres of the subject's brain to see what is likely to be well received. However, no-one knows quite why it does this because it then invariably delivers a cupful of liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:24:08 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 09:24:08 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > On 17/06/2011 14:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Tea, Earl Grey, Hot ?v ?Romulan Ale. > > Which makes me wonder why did Picard always state "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot", I > mean do they not have macros or pre-programmed settings in the 24th centuary > so he could say "normal please" :) :) :) :) Or just stand in front of the dispenser - the computer surely knows who he is (tracking his communicator) and what time it is (mid-morning, mid-afternoon, etc), so if he's such a creature of habit, words are unnecessary. Of course, that doesn't make for good television, so we get oft-repeated taglines. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:24:57 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 09:24:57 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > On 17 June 2011 15:05, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: >> On 17/06/2011 14:34, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Tea, Earl Grey, Hot ?v ?Romulan Ale. >> >> Which makes me wonder why did Picard always state "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot", I >> mean do they not have macros or pre-programmed settings in the 24th centuary >> so he could say "normal please" :) :) :) :) > > You have to be /very/ careful with automation. It was tried once. It > wasn't good. > > When the 'Drink' button is pressed it makes an instant but highly > detailed examination of the subject's taste buds... no-one knows > quite why it does this because it then invariably delivers a cupful of > liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. Because it was made by Lucas? -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 09:25:27 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 07:25:27 -0700 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: <125E516FF1164E92B792ADEC846E951C@vshack> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz><213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> <5AD18FEA346341D683F4105D81689309@massey.ac.nz>, <4DFB0105.5030404@dunnington.plus.com>, <125E516FF1164E92B792ADEC846E951C@vshack> Message-ID: > From: terry at webweavers.co.nz > > Thanks Peter, Doug and Alexey > > I know which hypothesis is the correct one now. It was MESS., rather than a > problem with my machine. > > I found the Sorcerer saved data and reloads it ok. I loaded in a large > MESS-sourced Sorcerer program in WAV format through the sound card (slowed > by 8.5%), saved it out to a real cassette, then loaded it back in again. > Perfect! So record and playback were in sync > > Next I played a tape of Adventureland and the WAV file of adventureland. > With the MESS file reduced 8.5% they took about the same time. The original > MESS WAV was about 15 seconds shorter! > > I then listened to a tape of Adventureland, the original MESS wav of > Adventureland and the 8.5% slowed WAV of Aventureland. The latter seemed > closer to the pitch of the tape. > > Then I changed tape recorders and found I could load some of the large > program tapes (like Adventureland) anyway. > > HOWEVER, I could have saved myself all this trouble if I'd checked the MESS > Sound Properties first. Not the sound card but the sound configuration in > MESS itself. The sampling rate was set at 48000 (Duh!). You were on to it > Alexey. Thanks for mentioning that or I might not have thought to check it > (MESS has a HUGE number of configurable properties). > > Well, mystery solved and I've learnt something. I now know to check on > sampling rates if I ever output to WAV from emulators like this again! > > Terry (Tez) > Hi Terry Your saying that 44000 was the rate it should have been played at and not 48000? Dwight From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 17 09:43:47 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 07:43:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 17, 11 09:24:57 am" Message-ID: <201106171443.p5HEhlXE015894@floodgap.com> > > When the 'Drink' button is pressed it makes an instant but highly > > detailed examination of the subject's taste buds... no-one knows > > quite why it does this because it then invariably delivers a cupful of > > liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. > > Because it was made by Lucas? No, because it was made by the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation, whose highly profitable complaints division consumed the land mass of three major planets and had a sign so heavy with their motto "Share and Enjoy" that it crushed the entire department under its weight. After the catastrophe only the top halves of the sign's letters were visible, which in the local language mean "go stick your head in a pig," and are only lit at times of local celebration. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time is an illusion. Lunch time, doubly so. -- Douglas Adams --------------- From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 17 09:44:59 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:44:59 -0400 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFB686B.8010908@verizon.net> On 6/17/2011 8:41 AM, Michael Passer wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:45:51PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> 2011/6/16 Tony Duell: >>>>>>> With this crowd, you should have tried "ABEND, bitches!" :) >>> ... >>>>> 0x207F (for the P800 crowd here...) >>>> >>>> +++ATH0 >>> >>> And those of us who remember why this did not work on some modems but >> others? >> >> I had plenty of non-Hayes-compatible modems - Ventel comes to mind (it >> was targeted for the dumb terminal crowd, not the >> personal-computer-BBSer)... I think the model I had did *not* include >> a dialer (it was an external accessory). >> >> Or did you mean Hayes vs Hayes clones? >> >> -ethan >> > > I believe the reason it didn't work on some modems is that Hayes had a > patent on the use of an escape sequence (+++) with guard time. I wasn't sure what Diane was getting at here. Either, modems that weren't Hays compatible --- or didn't take commands at all like my Radio Shack 300 baud direct connect. or, it was necessary to type + + + slowly, and then wait, and do ATH0. Keith From db at db.net Fri Jun 17 10:57:31 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:57:31 -0400 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110617155731.GA25852@night.db.net> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:41:38AM -0400, Michael Passer wrote: > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > > > On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:45:51PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: ... > > > > Or did you mean Hayes vs Hayes clones? > > > > -ethan > > > > I believe the reason it didn't work on some modems is that Hayes had a > patent on the use of an escape sequence (+++) with guard time. Yep. stupid patent. Modem companies had to pay or not use it. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From feedle at feedle.net Fri Jun 17 11:00:01 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (Archturiat Baumann) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 09:00:01 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <194B4812-DB2A-4517-82B5-5E48C734E7E3@feedle.net> On Jun 17, 2011, at 6:25 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Personally, at a wet-behind-the-ears 43y old, I've never used an RPN > calculator, but I know that I don't really understand RPN and trying > to unpack equations and rewrite them in RPN was extremely hard work > for me... By comparison, I find RPN inherently makes sense. Then I learned Forth as my first programming language in 1979 when I was a child. What that says about me I'm not sure, but you can take from it what you will. From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 11:31:36 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:31:36 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 7:53 AM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 1:01 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 17 Jun 2011 at 0:56, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > >> Warp Drive vs. Ion Propulsion > > > > Fish vs. Fowl > > > > Soup vs. Salad > > > > What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? > You guys disappoint me. > > eh-hem, Yeoman Janice Rand vs. Counsler Deanna Troi ;) From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 11:34:11 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:34:11 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Daniel Seagraves > wrote: > > What, no "Kirk vs. Picard"? > > You guys disappoint me. > > Tea, Earl Grey, Hot v Romulan Ale. > > eh-hem !! Saurian brandy vs. Romulan Ale From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 17 11:35:56 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 09:35:56 -0700 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110617155731.GA25852@night.db.net> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> <20110617155731.GA25852@night.db.net> Message-ID: <6f803462ab034864bb5d8910f7127f41@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 17, at 8:57 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:41:38AM -0400, Michael Passer wrote: >> >> I believe the reason it didn't work on some modems is that Hayes had a >> patent on the use of an escape sequence (+++) with guard time. > > Yep. stupid patent. Modem companies had to pay or not use it. If it had the effect of limiting the use or propagation of that escape sequence, the patent was a good thing. I always found the delays annoying. How much cumulative time was wasted while people waited for the computer to get control of the modem? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 12:08:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:08:06 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2011 at 2:41, Dan Roganti wrote: > Positive Logic Design vs. Negative Logic Design Most moderately complex designs contain a mixture of both. What irks me when reading a schematic is the idiot who assumes that a 7400 is ALWAYS represented as a quad NAND gate. This sort of thinking, while being bush-league, also obfuscates the actual circuit design. --Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Jun 17 13:26:04 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:26:04 -0400 Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110617155731.GA25852@night.db.net> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> <20110617155731.GA25852@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4DFB9C3C.2080409@verizon.net> On 6/17/2011 11:57 AM, Diane Bruce wrote: > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 08:41:38AM -0400, Michael Passer wrote: >> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 4:00 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: >>>> On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 03:45:51PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > ... >>> >>> Or did you mean Hayes vs Hayes clones? >>> >>> -ethan >>> >> >> I believe the reason it didn't work on some modems is that Hayes had a >> patent on the use of an escape sequence (+++) with guard time. > > Yep. stupid patent. Modem companies had to pay or not use it. > > - Diane Patent is available here, for those interested. http://bit.ly/kbM0AD read someplace that the license was $1. While this might not be worth anything, they did have a court decision find in their (Hayes) favor. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 13:48:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 11:48:40 -0700 Subject: Calcomp Techjet on CL Message-ID: <4DFB3F18.25981.6EF1DB@cclist.sydex.com> http://eugene.craigslist.org/ele/2446255291.html Eugene, OR I'd pick it up, but I don't know what the heck I'd do with it. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 14:21:26 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:21:26 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Jun 2011 at 2:41, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > Positive Logic Design vs. Negative Logic Design > > Most moderately complex designs contain a mixture of both. yes but in essence these are still only positive logic designs, only the assertion levels(active state) of a signal changes, it still relies on Pos.Voltage = Logic Hi. > What irks me when reading a schematic is the idiot who assumes that a 7400 > is > ALWAYS represented as a quad NAND gate. It depends on what the assertion levels(active states) are for the inputs in the design. If the assertion levels are logic Lo, then it would be better to view this using the negative logic symbol as a bubble input OR gate then. I hope you don't expect all databooks past & present to be revised :) These were always written in the context of positive logic. This sort of thinking, while > being bush-league, also obfuscates the actual circuit design. > Negative logic design is usually not for the faint hearted ;) =Dan From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Jun 17 14:37:22 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:37:22 -0400 Subject: Esprit keyboard Message-ID: <18FDCD37243B46859CF275CDFB96CCE7@dell8300> Got an Esprit keyboard today and was wondering if it is a normal PS/2 type keyboard? It looks kind of like the Esprit 125c terminal keyboard but with a PS/2 plug instead of rj11. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 14:40:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 12:40:31 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com>, <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFB4B3F.26583.9E6AEE@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2011 at 15:21, Dan Roganti wrote: > I hope you don't expect all databooks past & present to be revised :) > These were always written in the context of positive logic. No, but I do expect the knucklehead drawing the schematic to use the symbol that best describes the function of the gate. I'm still not following you--if you're referring to voltage levels being positive or negative, e.g. ECL, I still consider that to be positive logic (as expressed in the databooks), even though both logic 1 and 0 are more negative that 0V, but 1 is more positive than 0. But that's just a convention. If you're talking about designing in DeMorgan equivalents, I don't see the issue, unless one is unpracticed. One should be as natural as the other--looking at a truth table, one should see it in both senses. But I don't know how logic design is taught nowadays... --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Jun 17 14:40:52 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:40:52 -0500 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESS programming issue? In-Reply-To: References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> Message-ID: <4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com> On 6/16/2011 8:35 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > Thanks for the encouragement RE: the Exidy Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC. This > weekend I'll unpack the ROM burner, read the docs that come with it and > take it from there. > The burner will almost certainly have a read mode. If it were me, and I realize this is sort of belt and suspenders thinking, I would read and display the suspected bad EPROM contents using the burner. You will likely see the same results, but it should definitely confirm (or question) your original very fine analysis. Later, Charlie C. > > Terry (Tez) > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 17 15:10:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:10:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110617125704.E63301@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Which makes me wonder why did Picard always state "Tea, Earl Grey, Hot", > I mean do they not have macros or pre-programmed settings in the 24th > centuary so he could say "normal please" :) :) :) :) 5) The Nutri-Matic machine deeply analyzes the subject, and then proceeds to provide him with a plastic cup filled with a liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. 4) "normal, please"?? Do you say "please" to the ship's computer?? Orak (sp?) would have a snide response. 3) "normal please" or "the usual" don't fill up as much time between commercials, 2) "normal please" could easily be misinterpreted by the ship's computer to be a request for a more familiar reality, on a par with "stop turning into a penquin". 1) That would not bring in the "product placement" revenue From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 17 15:15:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 13:15:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110617131438.X63301@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. > > Because it was made by Lucas? WHOA! Are you saying that the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation is an ENGLISH company?? From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 17 16:33:00 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:33:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110617131438.X63301@shell.lmi.net> References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20110617131438.X63301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> liquid that is almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea. >> >> Because it was made by Lucas? > > WHOA! > > Are you saying that the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation is an ENGLISH > company?? > > Surely you're not...serious. *gd&r* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 15:04:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:04:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Anything but Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110616210039.GA1506@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jun 16, 11 05:00:39 pm Message-ID: > > +++ATH0 > > And those of us who remember why this did not work on some modems but others? Well, it certainly won't work on modems that don't respond to commands sent over the serial line [1] or modems that have a command set other than the Hayes one. It also won't work on true Hayes modems and those that perfectly emulate them. They require a pause between the +++ and the rest of the comamnd. This was deliberate so that having such a string in the data stream won't have any effect on the moden. I seem to remember there was some legal issue (copyright, patent, something like that) covering this bit of design which is why some 'Hayes compatible' modems implemented the same comamnd set without requirign the pause. [1] Like the one I've spent the last couple of weeks restoring. A Modem 13A and associate Telephone 740. The modem is a PCB in a plinth under a 740 type telephone which is a 746 telephone with the space to mount 4 swtich buttons, here 2 are used to select between the telephone and modem/ The 746 was the standa UK telephone in th 1970s, think of it as being the UK equivalent to a Bell 500 set. Anyway, the mdoem has no spmarts at all. It does contain ICs, 9 Op-amps whic seem to be 748s and a 74L03 quad NAND gate (here used to XOR the received signal with a pahse-shifted versio nof it, the mean voltage at the output of the XOR depends on wheter hte incoming tone is mark or space). The basic disign of the mdoem is as follows : Trransmit : TxD line buffered by an Op-amp (who needs 1489s :-)), this drives som transistors whic change the tap on an LC resonant circuit which is the 'tank' for an oscialltor built round another op-amp. The outptu of that goes to a complex LC filter stage, then to another op-amp which drives the line coupling transformer. Receive : Incoming signal from line transformer is amplified (another op-amp), then another LC fiter, then an active filter (you guessed it, a 748). The output of that goes to (a) a charge pump, the output of which goes to a couple of op-amps to provide the carrier detect signal; (b) to a limiter, an op-amp which saturates to give a square wave. This sqaure wave goes to an LC phase shift network, the outptu of that is XORed with the unshifted version. The output of that goes to an averager (discrete transitors), then to an op-amp to drive the RxD line (1488s? Who needs them?). Power supply : Amazingly this thing can be powered from the telephone line (although I bleive this was only usable on short lines, it does work fine on my line simulator). There's an SMPUS built from discrete transistors (multivibrator, error amplifier, chopper) driving a transoformer. votlage feedback is taken from the primary winding, not ideal, but it saves an opto-isolator (which were not common when this thing was designed). Outptus from the transfomer are rectified and smoothed, giving +/-5V and +/-8V FWIW, the modem PCB works fine (for 'fine' meaning 30 characters per second :-)). The telephone has problems. Some I have put right, like the broken-off screw in the ringer/ One I made worse (I repaired the case with Plastic Weld, and managed to glue one of the buttons solif. I will ahve to make a new button :-(). And one I am still thinking about, a broken off plastic peg in the rotary dial which means the mainspring is not achored. I'll now go back to on-topic stuff (I hope). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 15:11:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:11:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Jun 16, 11 06:09:18 pm Message-ID: > microcode vs. assembly > I am confused. I can understand a holy way : machine code .vs. assembly but microdode is not really related to those, it relates to the internal deisng of the processor control system. You cna of cours write microcode in a form of assembly language, I've done so many times, and have written several mcirocode assmeblers and diassemblers. When does a 'state machine' become 'microcode' though? To a hardware person they are very similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 15:43:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:43:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 16, 11 06:02:05 pm Message-ID: > In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was > much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty > quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and > reliability were sufficient for the application. However, the last isvery important. Professor Wilkes told me (IIRC) that the most unreliable components in EDSAC were the germanium diodes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:30:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:30:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jun 17, 11 02:25:45 pm Message-ID: > > On 16 June 2011 20:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > > -tony (Who can't use an infix calculator). > > Really? So you can't read or write algebraic equations, either? YEs, I can. but actually, I find postfix notation a lot clearer and more logical. When it comes to using a calcualtor, I find that if I try to use an infix one, I am forver prssign the keys in the wrong order (as in 'OK, I want to halve that result' and will press the 2 before the divide key, thus reasign the result on an infix machine). With an infix machine, I have to think what I am doing all the time, with an RPN machine, it's automatic. And that's not to mention the fact that on an RPN machine I know exactly what will happen when I press a key (the operaion will be executed there and then, noting is stored for later use), wehreas on an infix machien I have ot think 'does this machien obey the heirarchy rules, and if so, which ones). In otehr words, on an ifix machine, I have to think what '1+2*3' will evaluate to, on an RPN machine I know exactly what 1 2 3 * + or 1 2 + 3 * will do. > > Because if you can type it, you have therefore shown that can press > buttons in that order - which is how calculators work. Firsltym not it isn't (see above) amd secondly, it appears that you and I use claculators in differnet ways. Very often I don't have an expression to evaulate. It's more a matter of 'Let's work out the reactance of that cpaactiro at this frequency. Now let's add on (in quadrature) the total resistance of that chaim. Now let's work out...' That sort of thing is much easier on an RPN machine, I can assure you. > Personally, at a wet-behind-the-ears 43y old, I've never used an RPN > calculator, but I know that I don't really understand RPN and trying > to unpack equations and rewrite them in RPN was extremely hard work > for me... Odd. It took me less than an afternoon to learn it about 30 years ago. And I am darn glad I did. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:07:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:07:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Jun 17, 11 01:35:18 pm Message-ID: > In the meantime here is another thing to ponder. > > I had problems loading in machine-language (not BASIC of course) software > from the tapes I got given with the machine. I tried a number but the none > seem to load successfully expect for the shortest program. > > Ok, so I figured the tapes were just old and degraded. Googling around and > trying things out I found I could make sound files (WAV) from cassette > binary archives of Sorcerer software using the MESS emulator. Hooray! > > BUT...loading these into the Sorcerer via soundcard seemed tricky. No > matter how much I fiddled with the volume and tone controls, an error always > seemed to appear about 45 seconds to a minute into the run. Very fine > adjustments made a slight difference, but the only program I could get to > load in was actually a copy of the short file (Martian Invaders) that I'd > successfully loaded via real tape. Off the top of my head I think it was > just over a minute long (it could be longer). > > I looked at the WAV file with Audacity. They were nice square waves with a > good amptitude. They certainly LOOKED ok. Hmmmm.... > > After scratching my head a bit, I started to wonder if it was a timing > issue? I wondered if somehow the Sorcerer was eventually losing synch with > the input data. Acting on this hunch, using Audacity I converted the sound > file so it was 5% faster. No improvement. Then I tried 5% slower. Wow, I > found that the load got further. Instead of falling over after about 45 > seconds it was about 1.30 seconds or so. The volume also didn't seem quite > as critical. > > Eventually after playing around and finding the limits I discovered that if > I made the WAV files 8.5% slower I'd always get a successful load no matter > how large the file (actually tolerance seemed to be between 7.5% and 9.5%). > The more I moved outside those tolerance parameters, the quicker a load > failed. > > >From this I came to a conclusion that it indeed was a synch/timing issue. > > Now the question is this. > > 1. Was it caused by an error in code in the MESS emulator, in that the sound > files were created with the timing 8.5% faster than it should be OR.... > 2. Is there something out of whack with the cassette interface in my machine > (a cap out of tolerance maybe) which gives an incorrect timing/synch on > load. Making the files 8.5% slower counteracted this fault, so a successful > load was (always) accomplished? > > Any thoughts on this? > > At first I assumed it was just an error in MESS. That someone just got the > timing wrong when writing the tape output routine. Thinking about it, now > I'm not so sure? I couldn't seem to get any of the REAL tapes to load > except for Martian Invasion (the shortest one). Happily as well as having a > real tape, Martian Invasion was also in the binary archive. Before changing > the speed, I could also get the Martian Invasion WAV to load with fine > volume fiddling. So maybe it is the Sorcerer that's out of synch rather > than MESS? > > I don't know, but it would be good to find out which one of the hypothese is > correct. > > I might try to digitize the tapes. If I get nice square wavs, I'll see if I > can slow these down by 8.5%. If I do, then can successfully load them into > the Sorcerer, this would indicate that the problem is with my machine rather > than MESS. I've foudn my Sorceror Techncial Manual -- do you have it? Is it on-line anywhere? The cassette interface is much more hardware-intensive than on most home micors. It uses the UART on the main logic board along with the encoder/dcecoder circuitry on a daughterbord. The tape signals are carried on a DB25 conenctor, along with the RS232 signals. The normal Mic and Ear signals are also on RCA sockets I think. I assume that the cable you are using is goof. If you are using a DB25 cable, you might want to check it against the schematic on page 36 of the manual. If you are using normal audi cables, check them for continuity, etc. There is an LED on the tape interface board that should be on most of the time, but go off (and stay of, or at worst flicker occasionally) when loading a tpae. Does it? It indicates that the phase locked loop on the tape interface has locked. There's a procedure for testing the tape interface starting on page 31 of the manual, and troubeshooting hints starting on page 32. It's probably worth goign through this. There's a theory-of-operation section starting on page 41, but I don't think that's particularly clear or helpful. I think if all else fails, you'll have to check the frequencies of the signals in your audio files (or tapes), and trace the signals though the read amplifiers nad filters with a 'scope. Then check that the PLL is locking correctly, and that the output clcok frequency of that is what you expect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:38:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:38:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 17, 11 10:08:06 am Message-ID: > > On 17 Jun 2011 at 2:41, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > Positive Logic Design vs. Negative Logic Design > > Most moderately complex designs contain a mixture of both. What irks > me when reading a schematic is the idiot who assumes that a 7400 is > ALWAYS represented as a quad NAND gate. This sort of thinking, while > being bush-league, also obfuscates the actual circuit design. This is going to be a holy war... I find the 'assertion logic' symbols -- things like AND gates with inverting bubbles on both inputsn and outputs (representing, say, a quarter of a 7432 OR gate) -- jar somwhat when I look at a schemaitc. But I have no problems realising thar ORing a couple of active-low signals preforms a logical AND of them. In other words : This IORQ/-----o|\ | >o------- I/ORd/ Rd/------o|/ '32 means I have to think for a milliseond This IORQ/------)\ ) >------- I/ORd/ Rd/-------)/ '32 doesn;t -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:10:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:10:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a In-Reply-To: from "Doug Jackson" at Jun 17, 11 12:18:55 pm Message-ID: > > Can you listen to the tones? > You should be able to hear 8.5% higher. I am _certain_ that I couldn't. My musical skill extend to determining 2 notes are differnt provided they are at least 3 octaves apart :-). Fortunately, I hae a 'scope and a frequency counter... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:11:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:11:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Doug Jackson" at Jun 17, 11 12:21:43 pm Message-ID: > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > 100....... And - just playing with systems. I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 15:07:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:07:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jun 16, 11 02:31:06 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 16 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > The Atari XL's vs C64's were a much more volatile time.... > > > Not really. Everyone knew the Atari was utter crap. :) I wasn't into home micros and games at that time (and am not now), but I always thought the Atari400/800 (Etc0 video chips looked nice on paper. The C64 one looked much more 'normal'. Let the flames begin... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 17 16:21:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:21:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: <125E516FF1164E92B792ADEC846E951C@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Jun 17, 11 11:34:55 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks Peter, Doug and Alexey > > I know which hypothesis is the correct one now. It was MESS., rather than a > problem with my machine. ARGH!!!. I could make some comment about 'yet again the classic computer is not the problem' :-) [...] > HOWEVER, I could have saved myself all this trouble if I'd checked the MESS > Sound Properties first. Not the sound card but the sound configuration in > MESS itself. The sampling rate was set at 48000 (Duh!). You were on to it > Alexey. Thanks for mentioning that or I might not have thought to check it > (MESS has a HUGE number of configurable properties). Fortunately, with real tape recorders you can check the tpae speed using a stroboscope if you have to (meaure the diameeter of the capastan using a micrometer, measure the rotational speed by making the flywheel and strobing it, calcualte the tpe speed in the obviosu way). I hve found that white LEDs are an ideal light source for stroboscopes, and you can easily disng the circuitry to provide a short light pulse with a much longer gap between them which gives a clearer indication of the strobe markings. Some time back I built a pair of such strobes. One has an adjustable oscillator, switchable divider chain, and am output (1:1 mark-space ratio) at the flaching frequency to drive a frequency coutner. The other is crystal-controlled and gneerates 100 or 112 flahses per second to simulate a mains light source in Europe or the States. I find that gives am uch clearer indication for things like floppy drive speed strobe disks than a mains light bulb does. -tony From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Jun 17 16:53:06 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 17:53:06 -0400 Subject: Pdp 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42c9fd62-85be-4136-8e4b-9a4b0d5a6b39@email.android.com> Running pdp 11/40 power ok. Power on...freezes with proc and bus lights on and no front panel response. Working to resolve any off the cuff ideas? Will post details if anyone interested to help. Bill -- Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 17 16:56:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:56:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift > > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > > 100....... And - just playing with systems. On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. The [emergency] phone installed in an elevator (lift) has no coin slot? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 16:57:29 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 14:57:29 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <194B4812-DB2A-4517-82B5-5E48C734E7E3@feedle.net> References: <613058.19480.qm@web113502.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>, , , <194B4812-DB2A-4517-82B5-5E48C734E7E3@feedle.net> Message-ID: > From: feedle at feedle.net > > On Jun 17, 2011, at 6:25 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > > Personally, at a wet-behind-the-ears 43y old, I've never used an RPN > > calculator, but I know that I don't really understand RPN and trying > > to unpack equations and rewrite them in RPN was extremely hard work > > for me... > > By comparison, I find RPN inherently makes sense. > > Then I learned Forth as my first programming language in 1979 when I was a child. What that says about me I'm not sure, but you can take from it what you will. Hi I always find it interesting that people mention unpacking an equation as one of the reasons they don't like RPN. It is funny because that same unpacking is exactly what is needed to solve the equation. When building complex operations that require specific sequencing I always find that RPN thinking makes sense. It is just telling the computer, "Do this, then this and then this". No ambiguity and no interpretation just do what I told you to do. Any interactions are fully understood because the computer is not allowed to change any of the orders. In equations, we put () in place to indicate order in programs, we are supposed to describe things in the order we expect them handled. It is a mixed and confusing system. Dwight From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 17 17:10:10 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:10:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA8B41.19131.325FDDC@cclist.sydex.com> <0E5C4EFB-FA46-428F-A22D-D44AC267A2C9@lunar-tokyo.net> <4DFB5F22.1040409@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <20110617131438.X63301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110617150902.Y63301@shell.lmi.net> > > Are you saying that the Sirius Cybernetics Corporation is an ENGLISH > > company?? On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Gene Buckle wrote: > Surely you're not...serious. > *gd&r* How long after the acquisition of Lucas was the name change and the release of "Real Peopl Personalities"? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 17:13:17 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:13:17 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > > > On 17 Jun 2011 at 2:41, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > > > Positive Logic Design vs. Negative Logic Design > > > > Most moderately complex designs contain a mixture of both. What irks > > me when reading a schematic is the idiot who assumes that a 7400 is > > ALWAYS represented as a quad NAND gate. This sort of thinking, while > > being bush-league, also obfuscates the actual circuit design. > > This is going to be a holy war... > > I find the 'assertion logic' symbols -- things like AND gates with > inverting bubbles on both inputsn and outputs (representing, say, a > quarter of a 7432 OR gate) -- jar somwhat when I look at a schemaitc. But > I have no problems realising thar ORing a couple of active-low signals > preforms a logical AND of them. > > In other words : > > This > > IORQ/-----o|\ > | >o------- I/ORd/ > Rd/------o|/ > '32 > > means I have to think for a milliseond > > This > > IORQ/------)\ > ) >------- I/ORd/ > Rd/-------)/ > '32 > > doesn;t > > -tony Hi In most cases, it makes sense to try to show the demorganed symbol to match the designed logical operation. The only problem with that is that in some cases, it might be that one input doesn't match the logical sense of the other inputs. Now that I've seen this in real circuits and not someones RTL like diagram, I realize that I'd rather just see a nand gate look like a nand gate. I've found that I can't trust the demorganed symbol tell me what any upstream signal really has on that gate. I have to back trace it, anyway, for all but the simplest circuits. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 17 17:18:11 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:18:11 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <263d83d3047961ff8b8ff62000150533@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 16, 11 06:02:05 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > > In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was > > much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty > > quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and > > reliability were sufficient for the application. > > However, the last isvery important. Professor Wilkes told me (IIRC) that > the most unreliable components in EDSAC were the germanium diodes. > > -tony Most germaniums were point contact. One is balancing on the tip of that tiny point. Dwight From db at db.net Fri Jun 17 17:18:49 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 18:18:49 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110617221849.GA71767@night.db.net> On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift > > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > > 100....... And - just playing with systems. > > I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. I was waiting to hear the rest of this, about the duct tape, the whipped cream and the hamsters. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 17 17:24:25 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:24:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift >> (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model >> 100....... And - just playing with systems. > > I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. > ...so he didn't become a guest of the State? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cctech at vax-11.org Fri Jun 17 17:30:17 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 16:30:17 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book.. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> microcode vs. assembly >> > > > I am confused. I can understand a holy way : > > machine code .vs. assembly > > but microdode is not really related to those, it relates to the internal > deisng of the processor control system. You cna of cours write microcode > in a form of assembly language, I've done so many times, and have written > several mcirocode assmeblers and diassemblers. > > When does a 'state machine' become 'microcode' though? To a hardware > person they are very similar. > > -tony > Microcode engines are a subset of state machines which read the state transitions from an external memory instead of the transitions being developed by random logic. Clint From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 17:55:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 15:55:10 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, , Message-ID: <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2011 at 15:13, dwight elvey wrote: > The only problem with that is that in some cases, it might be that one > input doesn't match the logical sense of the other inputs. Now that > I've seen this in real circuits and not someones RTL like diagram, I > realize that I'd rather just see a nand gate look like a nand gate. > I've found that I can't trust the demorganed symbol tell me what any > upstream signal really has on that gate. I have to back trace it, > anyway, for all but the simplest circuits. Dwight If I see a two input OR with bubbles on both inputs and the output, I automatically (i.e. without a lot of conscious thought) say, "That's a negative-logic OR that's masquerading as a positive-logic AND gate. It's pretty much automatic, like resistor color code--you don't mentally run the color chart or some inande mnemonic aid in your head, you just grab a 47K resistor out of the pile because it looks like a 47K resistor. So give me the DeMorganed representation any day. I'll have more confidence that the designer has his thought processes straight. On the other hand, conventional logic symbols are weak in that they shows the component units, but doesn't necessarily show what they're supposed to do. For example, it may be expeditious to construct a XOR gate from leftover NAND gates and inverters, but there's no good way to show the intended function and still keep the components identified. --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jun 17 18:08:08 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:08:08 +1200 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a References: Message-ID: <002FF98C781E47289AE7838590032077@vshack> > Hi Terry > Your saying that 44000 was the rate it should have been played at > and not 48000? > Dwight Well, I don't know Dwight. What I am convinced of now is that the problem lies with MESS and not my machine. I did some more experimenting with MESS this morning. The default sampling rate with MESS appears to be 48000. I changed this to 41000 but actually it didn't make any difference. The file size was exactly the same, with the same loading problems until I slowed it down by 8.5%. Maybe the sampling rate doesn't affect tape OUTPUT to WAV (I don't have a good understanding of the technical details) or maybe there is just a bug in MESS? MESS is .err..well, quite messy. I've had a real struggle to get it to hold any changes in the properties I make using the GUI even though I "apply" the changes. I resorted eventually to editing the .ini files directly, but then in MESS there are three ini files. In the root folder there is one and also two in the ini folder (Sorcerer.ini and a Mess.ini). The latter seem to have the same info in them. Anyway I altered them both. Anyway, I'm not worried. My Sorcerer's cassette interface is working properly, and I can get good loadable WAVs for it by slowing them down 8.5% in Audacity. If anyone on this list is familiar with MESS and in particular the Sorcerer module I'd be happy to further communicate with them to track down this isuue. It if is buggy I'd be happy to do some testing for a possible fix. I intend to document what I did in a Blog entry in case other new Sorcerer owners want to make similar WAV files from MESS. Terry (Tez) From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jun 17 18:12:11 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:12:11 +1200 Subject: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue, or a MESS programming issue? References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack> <4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <660496D935DF40CAA8718D05CC1120C9@vshack> > The burner will almost certainly have a read mode. If it were me, and I > realize this is sort of belt and suspenders thinking, I would read and > display the suspected bad EPROM contents using the burner. You will > likely see the same results, but it should definitely confirm (or > question) your original very fine analysis. > Later, > Charlie C. Yes, I will do that Charlie. I've read the docs and hope to get the ROM burner hooked up and going later today. The process doesn't look too hard. I've found a source of used and unused 27C16 EPROMS here for a cheap price, atlthough they won't be here until the end of next week. I've also ordered a cheap UV eraser, which I will need to use if it's going to be more than a one-off activity. If this works I hope to burn a couple of ROMS for an old PET board I have too. I understand jumpering or some kind of adaptor is needed for these chips though. Anyway, that's in the future. Terry From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 17 18:21:28 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 00:21:28 +0100 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFBE178.4050909@dunnington.plus.com> On 17/06/2011 22:21, Tony Duell wrote: > I hve found that white LEDs are an ideal light source for stroboscopes, > and you can easily disng the circuitry to provide a short light pulse > with a much longer gap between them which gives a clearer indication of > the strobe markings. > > Some time back I built a pair of such strobes. One has an adjustable > oscillator, switchable divider chain, and am output (1:1 mark-space > ratio) at the flaching frequency to drive a frequency coutner. The other > is crystal-controlled and gneerates 100 or 112 flahses per second to > simulate a mains light source in Europe or the States. I find that gives > am uch clearer indication for things like floppy drive speed strobe disks > than a mains light bulb does. They're useful for quite a lot of things. There's a neat design for a simple fixed-frequency short-pulse LED strobe, with construction notes, on the vinylengine website: http://www.vinylengine.com/diy-strobe.shtml http://downloads.nakedresource.com/download_centre/index.php?diy_strobe.pdf -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 19:14:35 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 19:14:35 -0500 Subject: Pdp 11/40 In-Reply-To: <42c9fd62-85be-4136-8e4b-9a4b0d5a6b39@email.android.com> References: <42c9fd62-85be-4136-8e4b-9a4b0d5a6b39@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hi Bill, The 11/40 has jumpers on a lot of the basic boards that have to looked at in relation to the optional boards (KE11-E M7238, KE11-F M7239, KT11-D M7236, line clock- M787, and stack limit option. Every option change require changing jumpers. Every memory set has to have the right starting address and parity jumpers. Shorten the bus to cpu and mininal memory, and try a few toggle in programs. If you have a scope, you can scope the unibus. good luck, and feel free to send me ant questions. Paul On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:53 PM, B Degnan wrote: > Running pdp 11/40 power ok. Power on...freezes with proc and bus lights on and no front panel response. Working to resolve any off the cuff ideas? Will post details if anyone interested to help. > Bill > -- > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Jun 17 22:02:14 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:02:14 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/3/11 12:18 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > Interesting. I think this is the first with a focus on a game. You can > find links to other pre-gen'd systems here. > > http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/pdp10emu.html > > My favorite is Ken Harrison's as it includes network support for running > under KLH10. > > Zane I was playing with the virtual PDP-10 this afternoon and a few minutes ago I was reading an article on Slashdot about Robert Cringley taking a poke at IBM's claim to have invented the personal computer. Cringley disagrees and in the process, links to a Wikipedia article about Ed Roberts and MITS. Then, I remembered that Gates and Allen wrote BASIC for the Altair 8800 using a cross-assembler running on a PDP-10 at Lakeside School. So here's the punch line. Does anyone know if someone ever recreated an 8080 emulator to run on the PDP-10 (under SIMH, since I don't have a PDP-10)? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 22:07:54 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:07:54 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 6:55 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 17 Jun 2011 at 15:21, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > I hope you don't expect all databooks past & present to be revised :) > > These were always written in the context of positive logic. > > No, but I do expect the knucklehead drawing the schematic to use the > symbol that best describes the function of the gate. > > I'm still not following you--if you're referring to voltage levels > being positive or negative, e.g. ECL, I still consider that to be > positive logic (as expressed in the databooks), even though both > logic 1 and 0 are more negative that 0V, but 1 is more positive than > 0. But that's just a convention. I guess a basic way to describe is Negative Logic design is using a different frame of reference. Maybe a good analogy is whether you use RPN or alebra for your math. Whether you're using TTL or ECL, the voltage levels are relative. With Positive Logic, the True state, Logic 1 is a positive voltage relative to the off state. With Negative Logic, the Tru state, Logic 0 is a positive voltage relative to the off state. So in the case of ECL, with a Vee of -5.2v the off state is -0.8v which is more positive than -1.8v > > If you're talking about designing in DeMorgan equivalents, I don't > see the issue, unless one is unpracticed. One should be as natural > as the other--looking at a truth table, one should see it in both > senses. > I guess another basic way to describe is this way A positive Logic AND gate is the equivalent to a Negative Logic OR gate. It's not the bubble input/output OR gate that you see when using DeMorgan theorem.. So the true state in a AND gate is inverted when you're using the OR gate. Another example is the SR latch These days you typically see the NAND gate SR latch. Where the Q output is set to True state(logic1) using the low input - assert logic O This is still postive logic , but with inverted assertion level on the inputs Before when the first IC's came about 50yrs ago, you typically see NOR gate SR latches. Where the Q output is set to True state(logic 0) using a True state/low input - logic 0 again So the NOR SR latch is really a Negative Logic SR latch A very good example of Negative Logic design is the NASA AGC. > > . > . > . > On the other hand, conventional logic symbols are weak in that they > shows the component units, but doesn't necessarily show what they're > supposed to do. For example, it may be expeditious to construct a > XOR gate from leftover NAND gates and inverters, but there's no good > way to show the intended function and still keep the components > identified. > you can actually build a XOR gate from only just 4 NAND gates I hope my skills in ascii schematics are still good (using courier font) +-----\ +--------------------| \ | | O---+ A input | +-----\ +-----| / | +-----\ >----+---| \ | +-----/ +-----| \ | O--| | O--> output >----+---| / | +-----\ +-----| / B input | +-----/ +-----| \ | +-----/ | | O---+ +--------------------| / +-----/ =Dan From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 17 22:13:28 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:13:28 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 11:07 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > I guess a basic way to describe is Negative Logic design is using a > different frame of reference. > Maybe a good analogy is whether you use RPN or alebra for your math. > Whether you're using TTL or ECL, the voltage levels are relative. > With Positive Logic, the True state, Logic 1 is a positive voltage relative > to the off state. > With Negative Logic, the Tru state, Logic 0 is a positive voltage relative > to the off state. > oops typo > So in the case of ECL, with a Vee of -5.2v the off state is -0.8v which is > more positive than -1.8v > > ----------------------------------------------------------------^^^logic 0 level is 0.8v From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 17 22:20:44 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 20:20:44 -0700 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 11:02 PM -0400 6/17/11, Richard Cini wrote: >So here's the punch line. Does anyone know if someone ever recreated an 8080 >emulator to run on the PDP-10 (under SIMH, since I don't have a PDP-10)? Good question, I seem to remember something about a CPU emulator, but can't remember the details. Rich Alderson would be a good person around here to talk to about it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 17 23:55:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 21:55:52 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jun 2011 at 23:07, Dan Roganti wrote: > I guess another basic way to describe is this way > A positive Logic AND gate is the equivalent to a Negative Logic OR > gate. It's not the bubble input/output OR gate that you see when using > DeMorgan theorem.. So the true state in a AND gate is inverted when > you're using the OR gate. It's *exactly* the DeMorgan equivalent. One assumes that all logic levels have a bubble associated with them, so you don't make it explicit. It's just a convention--"1" can be light off, with "0" light on. Or a given phase difference in an AC signal or "1"= tomato soup and "0"=cream of mushroom. Some of the old databooks (I can't recall which) used to show logic gates both ways for reference. Heck, most decent buses (e.g. floppy, Multibus, GPIB) are negative logic. The control lines on most RAM chips are negative (CS is usually low-voltage=true along with WR = low, true). I don't see EE's driving themselves to drink over it. If we'dve created TTL using PNP transistors instead of NPN, would we be having the opposite discussion? > Another example is the SR latch > These days you typically see the NAND gate SR latch. > Where the Q output is set to True state(logic1) using the low input - > assert logic O This is still postive logic , but with inverted > assertion level on the inputs Before when the first IC's came about > 50yrs ago, you typically see NOR gate SR latches. Where the Q output > is set to True state(logic 0) using a True state/low input - logic 0 > again So the NOR SR latch is really a Negative Logic SR latch A very > good example of Negative Logic design is the NASA AGC. You see NOR logic SR latches in RTL and that doesn't require negative logic (at least by your "high voltage = true" definition.. > you can actually build a XOR gate from only just 4 NAND gates > I hope my skills in ascii schematics are still good (using courier > font) Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with the thread. If you're going to dedicate a whole quad NAND package to a single 2-input-XOR, that's not terribly efficient. Although probably every undergrad computer logic professor has pointed out this "neat trick" in class for the last 40+ years, I don't believe it's glitchless, so it's not a really good choice. --Chuck From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Jun 18 00:17:54 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 05:17:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Glitchless XOR gates (was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book...) In-Reply-To: <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with the thread. If you're > going to dedicate a whole quad NAND package to a single 2-input-XOR, > that's not terribly efficient. Although probably every undergrad > computer logic professor has pointed out this "neat trick" in class > for the last 40+ years, I don't believe it's glitchless, so it's not > a really good choice. By 'not glitchless' do you mean that if you simultaneously change the inputs from 00 to 11 you'll see an approx. 1 gate delay wide transient on the output of the XOR due to some of the signals passing through 2 and some through 3 NANDs? Is there a way to build an XOR from other types of gates that won't glitch on any of the input transitions 00 <-> 11 or 10 <-> 01 ? Even if you can't guarantee that all the gate delays are the same? Alexey From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 00:27:12 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 01:27:12 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 12:55 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 17 Jun 2011 at 23:07, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > I guess another basic way to describe is this way > > A positive Logic AND gate is the equivalent to a Negative Logic OR > > gate. It's not the bubble input/output OR gate that you see when using > > DeMorgan theorem.. So the true state in a AND gate is inverted when > > you're using the OR gate. > > It's *exactly* the DeMorgan equivalent. One assumes that all logic > levels have a bubble associated with them, so you don't make it > explicit. It's just a convention--"1" can be light off, with "0" > light on. Or a given phase difference in an AC signal or "1"= tomato > soup and "0"=cream of mushroom. Some of the old databooks (I can't > recall which) used to show logic gates both ways for reference. > hope my ascii schematics still works (using courier font) DeMorgans Theorem Positive Logic <----> Negative Logic _______ +-----\ \ \ A >-------| \ A>----O\ \ | AND |-->C | AND O---->C B >-------| / B>----O/ / +-----/ /______/ (bubble inputs & outputs) A B C A B C 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 1 True State <--SAME--> 1 1 1 True State _______ +-----\ \ \ A >-------| \ A>----O\ \ | NAND O-->C | NAND ----->C B >-------| / B>----O/ / +-----/ /______/ (bubble inputs only) A B C A B C 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 True State <--SAME--> 1 1 0 True State ====================================================== Negative Logic Design Positive Logic <----> Negative Logic _______ +-----\ \ \ A >-------| \ A >-----\ \ | AND |-->C | OR ---->C B* * >-------| / B >-----/ / +-----/ /______/ A B C A B C 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 True State <--INVERSE--> 0 0 0 True State _______ +-----\ \ \ A >-------| \ A >-----\ \ | NAND O-->C | NOR O--->C B* * >-------| / B >-----/ / +-----/ /______/ A B C A B C 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 1 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 True State <--INVERSE--> 0 0 1 True State =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 00:59:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 22:59:02 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 1:27, Dan Roganti wrote: > hope my ascii schematics still works (using courier font) Maybe we're saying the same thing and not seeing it. Positive logic AB --DeMorgan-> ~((~A) + (~B)) To negative logic, drop the bubbles on the DeMorgan equivalence on inputs and outputs. To avoid confusion, we'll say that the logic gates retain their same operation for high (H) and low (L) voltages: AB (postive logic) = (A+B) negative logic LL L LL L LH L LH H HL L HL H HH H HH H If, in the first colum, we take H = 1 and L = 0, and in the second column, H = 0 and L = 1, the logic maps are identical. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 01:00:17 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 02:00:17 -0400 Subject: Glitchless XOR gates (was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book...) In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ~http://www.rogtronics.net On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 1:17 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with the thread. If you're >> going to dedicate a whole quad NAND package to a single 2-input-XOR, >> that's not terribly efficient. > > it doesn't, I was just answering your "query" about XOR gates :) In fact, it relates to transistor logic, instead of SSI logic. Where the same transistor circuit can be repeated and wired in a manner to produce a XOR gate - using only 4 transistors - and a few diodes :) This is one of the things I showed in my Transistor Logic workshop at VCF East. Although probably every undergrad >> computer logic professor has pointed out this "neat trick" in class >> for the last 40+ years, I don't believe it's glitchless, so it's not >> a really good choice. >> > It's still glitchless providing you don't abuse the gates timing, as with any logic can be made to glitch by abusing the timing. You can make a 7486 glitch too, just by abusing the setup time - it doesn't have an infinite operating frequency. > > By 'not glitchless' do you mean that if you simultaneously change the > inputs from 00 to 11 you'll see an approx. 1 gate delay wide transient on > the output of the XOR due to some of the signals passing through 2 and some > through 3 NANDs? > no, that won't make it glitch. If you make a timing diagram , you can see this(even with a liberal gate delay, say , 10nsec - that fits even on graph paper) . Even though the 1st nand gate will change levels, the middle 2 nand gates are still unchanged since they don't enter a true state. So the 4th nand gate remains at a logic 0. This is also true if the states change from 00 -> 01 or 00->10. Even with 11->01 or 11->10. The 4th nand gate is always the sum of both middle nand gates - including their gate delays. > > Is there a way to build an XOR from other types of gates that won't glitch > on any of the input transitions 00 <-> 11 or 10 <-> 01 ? Even if you can't > guarantee that all the gate delays are the same? > like I mentioned about the 7486, you can make that glitch or any other part if you don't observe the timing parameters. =Dan From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 01:04:54 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 02:04:54 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jun 2011 at 1:27, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > hope my ascii schematics still works (using courier font) > > Maybe we're saying the same thing and not seeing it. > > Positive logic > > AB --DeMorgan-> ~((~A) + (~B)) > > To negative logic, drop the bubbles on the DeMorgan equivalence on > inputs and outputs. To avoid confusion, we'll say that the logic > gates retain their same operation for high (H) and low (L) voltages: > > AB (postive logic) = (A+B) negative logic > > LL L LL L > LH L LH H > HL L HL H > HH H HH H > > If, in the first colum, we take H = 1 and L = 0, and in the second > column, H = 0 and L = 1, the logic maps are identical. > > yes, that could be another way to describe it you take the inverse of the logic gate. Did my ascii schematics really come thru properly ? I know sometimes they can get mangled since I'm using gmail =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 01:12:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:12:42 -0700 Subject: Glitchless XOR gates (was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book...) In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFBDF6A.18595.2E1348C@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 5:17, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > By 'not glitchless' do you mean that if you simultaneously change the > inputs from 00 to 11 you'll see an approx. 1 gate delay wide transient > on the output of the XOR due to some of the signals passing through 2 > and some through 3 NANDs? Yes. > Is there a way to build an XOR from other types of gates that won't > glitch on any of the input transitions 00 <-> 11 or 10 <-> 01 ? Even > if you can't guarantee that all the gate delays are the same? You could at the simplest, add a 1 unit delay (buffer) on the A and B lines in parallel with the first NAND gate. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 01:18:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 17 Jun 2011 23:18:02 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFBE0AA.24317.2E616CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 1:27, Dan Roganti wrote: > hope my ascii schematics still works (using courier font) I use fixedsys, but the line-to-line spacing makes reading still difficult. Bed for me, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 18 02:04:48 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 00:04:48 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <915f3e2632fbaa2064fadbfcf6e0f0dd@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 16, at 12:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Postifix ('RPN') .vs. Infix ('algebraic;) :-) Manifest in the 70's as HP vs TI. > -tony (Who can't use an infix calculator). > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 08:45:28 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:45:28 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFA11AA.6060403@gmail.com> <4DF9BF41.17897.91D5F@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 2:21 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > yes but in essence these are still only positive logic designs, only the > assertion levels(active state) of a signal changes, it still relies on > Pos.Voltage = Logic Hi. > > ?Negative logic design is usually not for the faint hearted ;) I've owned PDP-8s for 70% of my life and I still struggle to really understand the R-series stuff. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 08:54:18 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 08:54:18 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift >> > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model >> > 100....... ?And - just playing with systems. > > On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. > > The [emergency] phone installed in an elevator (lift) has no coin slot? I was not aware that emergency phones in lifts in the UK were attached to the PSTN in a way you could gain control of the line. My understanding (which could be inaccurate, I admit) is that in the States, either the phone rings an internal maintenance number (for buildings that are staffed 24/7, and that may be an obsolete practice by now anyway) or it autodials to some off-site service that may eventually result in someone being sent to the site. You don't now nor ever did have a way of getting a dial tone. The closest to this that I'm aware of in my neck of the woods was an acquaintance of mine who loaded the family Apple II into the station wagon and parked by the garden center of the nearby K-Mart. It had a payphone next to an accessible power outlet. I don't recall hearing any tales of split-second getaways, but the arrangement did afford a quick exit. -ethan From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Jun 18 08:59:15 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:59:15 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/17/11 11:20 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > At 11:02 PM -0400 6/17/11, Richard Cini wrote: >> So here's the punch line. Does anyone know if someone ever recreated an 8080 >> emulator to run on the PDP-10 (under SIMH, since I don't have a PDP-10)? > > Good question, I seem to remember something about a CPU emulator, but > can't remember the details. Rich Alderson would be a good person > around here to talk to about it. > > Zane > >From stackoverflow.net (someone was talking about porting/conversion projects they were involved in): "Ported an 8080 simulator written in FORTRAN 77 from a DECSystem-10 running TOPS-10 to an IBM 4381 mainframe running VM/CMS." Interesting comment. I wonder if that's how Gates/Allen would have done it. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ajp166 at verizon.net Sat Jun 18 11:45:28 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:45:28 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFCD628.4020604@verizon.net> On 06/18/2011 09:59 AM, Richard Cini wrote: > On 6/17/11 11:20 PM, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: > >> At 11:02 PM -0400 6/17/11, Richard Cini wrote: >>> So here's the punch line. Does anyone know if someone ever recreated an 8080 >>> emulator to run on the PDP-10 (under SIMH, since I don't have a PDP-10)? >> Good question, I seem to remember something about a CPU emulator, but >> can't remember the details. Rich Alderson would be a good person >> around here to talk to about it. >> >> Zane >> > > From stackoverflow.net (someone was talking about porting/conversion > projects they were involved in): > > "Ported an 8080 simulator written in FORTRAN 77 from a DECSystem-10 running > TOPS-10 to an IBM 4381 mainframe running VM/CMS." > > Interesting comment. I wonder if that's how Gates/Allen would have done it. > > > Rich > Most likely since that was how things were done at the time. I do remember GE Tymshare (PDP-10s I think) in the mid to late 70s had an 8080 Development system/simulator to test flying code on line for a mere $25.00/hr I know that as they also had the same for 8008 and I'd used that. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 18 11:46:04 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 09:46:04 -0700 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFCD64C.9030701@bitsavers.org> On 6/17/11 8:02 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > I remembered that Gates and Allen wrote BASIC for the Altair 8800 > using a cross-assembler running on a PDP-10 at Lakeside School. > It was written on Harvard's PDP-10 long after they were out of high school. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 18 11:57:36 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:57:36 +0100 Subject: What Is It With Mains Filters? Message-ID: <002701cc2dd8$d4847c60$7d8d7520$@ntlworld.com> All the PSUs that have had components pop on me have all been capacitors in the mains filter (except the H7140 in my PDP11 but that was only after I had been messing with it to try to fix it, so that doesn't count). Not being an expert in electronics I am not sure of the reason for this. Can someone explain? Is it the type of capacitor? Is that type of capacitor only used in mains filters? If not, why have I (so far) not seen other PSU capacitors blow up? Regards Rob From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Jun 18 12:00:44 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 13:00:44 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: <4DFCD64C.9030701@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6/18/11 12:46 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > On 6/17/11 8:02 PM, Richard Cini wrote: >> I remembered that Gates and Allen wrote BASIC for the Altair 8800 >> using a cross-assembler running on a PDP-10 at Lakeside School. >> > > It was written on Harvard's PDP-10 long after they were out of high school. > Right machine, wrong school. I was reading two entries while typing. The top of the code even says "Written originally on the PDP-10 at Harvard from February 9 to April 27". My bad. Thanks for the clarification. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 12:22:00 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:22:00 +0100 Subject: What Is It With Mains Filters? In-Reply-To: <002701cc2dd8$d4847c60$7d8d7520$@ntlworld.com> References: <002701cc2dd8$d4847c60$7d8d7520$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: They are a special type of supposedly "self healing" capacitor able to withstand spikes without catching fire. You would be surprised if you scoped your supply, a lot of spikes arrive unless you filter upstream, they have a hard life. Replace with the best you can. Dave Caroline From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 13:06:53 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:06:53 +0100 Subject: Jack Eisenmann's Duo Adept Message-ID: The 8-bit computer that?s been built by hand http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2011/06/17/the-8-bit-computer-thats-been-built-by-hand/ >From the video: [[ The DUO Adept is an 8-bit homebrew TTL CPU + GPU I have designed and built. As a challenge I used only basic kinds of logic chips; no microcontroller or video card. It has a black and white TV monitor and keyboard, and is generally awesome! Oh, and I forgot to mention: I made this when I was a highschooler with no formal education in electronics. :) For more information about the machine, please go to this page: http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/iWeb/adeptpage/menu.html ]] -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 13:10:55 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:10:55 -0400 Subject: elevator phones, was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion In-Reply-To: References: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DFCEA2F.6090702@neurotica.com> On 6/18/11 9:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was not aware that emergency phones in lifts in the UK were attached > to the PSTN in a way you could gain control of the line. My > understanding (which could be inaccurate, I admit) is that in the > States, either the phone rings an internal maintenance number (for > buildings that are staffed 24/7, and that may be an obsolete practice > by now anyway) or it autodials to some off-site service that may > eventually result in someone being sent to the site. You don't now > nor ever did have a way of getting a dial tone. No, you can easily get a dialtone. I've done it. In 1993, my company (Digex) was in very stiff competition with UUnet Technologies. It was outright war. At the time they had periodic "open house" gatherings that only their customers were welcome to attend. We purchased their cheapest service, a dialup UUCP news feed, which afforded us the right to attend the next open house. After eating a very large quantity of baked beans, ("fire for effect!") a few of us, including our president Doug Humphrey, headed over to Virginia to rub elbows with our mortal enemies. It so happened that all of us were "men of mass", who were all quite experienced in the art of elevator manipulation ('vator surfing, etc), so we were sorely tempted to get into some mischief on our way out of the building. We walked into an elevator, along with some random guy leaving his workday from some other company in the building, and we happened to notice that the elevator was particularly "bouncy"...so we bounced it. A lot. The elevator control system noticed this and froze the elevator. Between floors, as luck would have it. So we used the emergency phone, which was configured to auto-dial the 24hr service number of the elevator maintenance company, and told them what was up. They dispatched a van, which we were told would take about 1.5hrs to get there. I noticed that the random guy in the elevator with us was carrying an HT (a handheld ham radio transceiver). It was, as I recall, a Yaesu FT-470, a 2m/440MHz radio with a DTMF keypad. I had an idea. We picked up the elevator's emergency phone and immediately started "flashing" the hook. If you do this with the right timing, you can get a dialtone. I asked the stranger for his HT, tuned it to an unused frequency, turned up the volume, keyed the transmitter, placed the elevator emergency phone's microphone next to the radio's speaker, and dialed "411". We got the number for the nearest Domino's (a crappy US pizza delivery chain), called that using the same method, and ordered a pizza. We requested that it be delivered to that address, "to the northeast elevator, between floors 4 and 5". We described our situation to the Domino's guy, he seemed to believe us, and said our pizza would be on its way shortly. Sadly, he obviously didn't believe us, and the pizza never arrived, and we left the elevator when the service guy showed up and reset the controller. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jun 18 13:19:59 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:19:59 -0400 Subject: Jack Eisenmann's Duo Adept In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201106181420.00177.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 18 June 2011 02:06:53 pm Liam Proven wrote: > The 8-bit computer that?s been built by hand > http://www.pcpro.co.uk/blogs/2011/06/17/the-8-bit-computer-thats-been-built-by-hand/ > > >From the video: > [[ > The DUO Adept is an 8-bit homebrew TTL CPU + GPU I have designed and > built. As a challenge I used only basic kinds of logic chips; no > microcontroller or video card. It has a black and white TV monitor and > keyboard, and is generally awesome! > > Oh, and I forgot to mention: I made this when I was a highschooler > with no formal education in electronics. :) > > For more information about the machine, please go to this page: > http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/iWeb/adeptpage/menu.html > ]] If there's a "C" in the part number it ain't TTL... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 18 13:55:14 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:55:14 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Jun 17, at 10:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jun 2011 at 1:27, Dan Roganti wrote: >> hope my ascii schematics still works (using courier font) > > Maybe we're saying the same thing and not seeing it. > > Positive logic > > AB --DeMorgan-> ~((~A) + (~B)) > > To negative logic, drop the bubbles on the DeMorgan equivalence on > inputs and outputs. To avoid confusion, we'll say that the logic > gates retain their same operation for high (H) and low (L) voltages: > > AB (postive logic) = (A+B) negative logic > > LL L LL L > LH L LH H > HL L HL H > HH H HH H > > If, in the first colum, we take H = 1 and L = 0, and in the second > column, H = 0 and L = 1, the logic maps are identical. When I reverse engineer old equipment (discrete or early SSI where the ICs also have to be decoded) I have to decide whether some collection of components or the object in some black-box IC is a (N)AND or (N)OR gate. As I work through the system I assess what makes the most sense for the overall design. Sometimes it is fairly obvious, for example when the system is built from a lot of structures of the form gateTypeA ==> gateTypeB ==> inverter you can bet it's AND-OR-INVERT, not OR-AND-INVERT. I then carefully specify the logic levels for the system, e.g.: Gates are drawn with Logic 0/false = 0V, Logic 1/true = -10V. I find that's really all that is needed. I actually try to stay away from the terms negative and positive logic as they have always struck me as somewhat ambiguous, I've never really seen a rigorous description. Rhetorically, are we talking about: - voltage levels? (+5 > 0) - magnitude of voltage levels? ABS(-10) > 0. - 'logic' level? (0 is 'more negative' than 1)? - high vs low? (higher as it appears on a scope face? but logic 1 is 'higher' than logic 0 even if 1=0V & 0=+5V) - assertion level? - what if signals are named using false assertion levels, where false is a more positive voltage then true? - etc. I have a schematic from the 60's that used, in essence, 4 types of gate symbols: one each for +/- AND/OR, but you still have to scratch your head some when it comes to interpreting signal levels at the different types of gates. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 14:26:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 12:26:45 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFC9985.9817.144AFDF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 11:55, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I have a schematic from the 60's that used, in essence, 4 types of > gate symbols: one each for +/- AND/OR, but you still have to scratch > your head some when it comes to interpreting signal levels at the > different types of gates. Well, as I said, it's mostly a state of mind. I prefer a gate used as an "AND" to be represented as such, regardless of the logic polarity (a better term?). In fact, it's too bad that we can't use colors to say "this stuff is negative polarity logic" and get rid of the gratuitous bubbles. Like musical notation, there can be problems in getting an idea across. One thing that still throws me is the use of IEC symbols in schematics. I really have to stop and pause over each symbol as I read a schematic. Granted, the IEC symbols can represent logic that would otherwise have to be drawn as a box with a number in the distinctive-shape style (e.g. priority encoder, 3-of-5 gate, etc.), but that doesn't make it any easier to parse. However, I increasingly run across schematics where a number of packages are drawn with tags on almost all leads. Somehow, to get an idea of the logic flow, you're expected to map out the connections in your head, or use colored ink to connect the points until a real schematic emerges. About half of the time, I simply give up and draw my own schematic. Inevitably, these are the result of some CAD schematic-with-PCB EDA tool. Curiously, I've never seen an EDA tool to convert this stuff into more conventionally human-readable schematic form. Maybe they're not intended to be read by people, but merely serve as a reference from which to construct netlists, but I'd still like to see the guy who figured it was a good thing get his come-uppance. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Sat Jun 18 15:09:46 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:09:46 -0400 Subject: What Is It With Mains Filters? Message-ID: > All the PSUs that have had components pop on me have all been capacitors in > the mains filter (except the H7140 in my PDP11 but that was only after I had > been messing with it to try to fix it, so that doesn't count). > Not being an expert in electronics I am not sure of the reason for this. Can > someone explain? Is it the type of capacitor? Is that type of capacitor only > used in mains filters? If not, why have I (so far) not seen other PSU > capacitors blow up? Not sure how far you're going back but... Mains filters from the 50's and 60's likely had paper/wax capacitors in them. At least in the US, there doesn't seem to have been a special rating system for these but most cap failures were benign (not purely luck... even though there was no special rating they were generally made to be on the robust end.) "Modern" ones (70's onwards) have specially rated X1, X2, Y2 capacitors. In small filters these are likely to be ceramics and in larger ones (especially snubber networks) they are more likely to be boxed film capacitors. They all have special fire protection and surge voltage ratings. They do not necessarily lead "Easy" lives - if some nearby inductive appliance is putting crap into the power line, it's the small devices on the same circuit or nearby branch that may end up eating it. Tim. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 18 15:14:53 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 13:14:53 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFC9985.9817.144AFDF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFB2786.12757.12E24A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFBDC36.7035.2D4B053@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFC9985.9817.144AFDF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3bb7c0214c57baf4868609e3d7486bb1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 18, at 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jun 2011 at 11:55, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> I have a schematic from the 60's that used, in essence, 4 types of >> gate symbols: one each for +/- AND/OR, but you still have to scratch >> your head some when it comes to interpreting signal levels at the >> different types of gates. > > Well, as I said, it's mostly a state of mind. I prefer a gate used > as an "AND" to be represented as such, regardless of the logic > polarity (a better term?). In fact, it's too bad that we can't use > colors to say "this stuff is negative polarity logic" and get rid of > the gratuitous bubbles. Like musical notation, there can be > problems in getting an idea across. > > One thing that still throws me is the use of IEC symbols in > schematics. I really have to stop and pause over each symbol as I > read a schematic. Granted, the IEC symbols can represent logic that > would otherwise have to be drawn as a box with a number in the > distinctive-shape style (e.g. priority encoder, 3-of-5 gate, etc.), > but that doesn't make it any easier to parse. I'm not fond of the IEC symbols either, they seem as if they were designed to accommadate primitive graphic rendering systems (no curves), rather than human readability. With that said, the ANSI/MIL symbols can be difficult at times to draw well (esp. when expanding for more inputs). Here are some old variations: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/gates/index.html Old schematics with the circle/triangle form can look quite neat. > However, I increasingly run across schematics where a number of > packages are drawn with tags on almost all leads. Somehow, to get > an idea of the logic flow, you're expected to map out the connections > in your head, or use colored ink to connect the points until a real > schematic emerges. About half of the time, I simply give up and draw > my own schematic. > > Inevitably, these are the result of some CAD schematic-with-PCB EDA > tool. Curiously, I've never seen an EDA tool to convert this stuff > into more conventionally human-readable schematic form. > > Maybe they're not intended to be read by people, but merely serve as > a reference from which to construct netlists, but I'd still like to > see the guy who figured it was a good thing get his come-uppance. Yes, tracing a signal becomes tedious. Seems again that human readability was last on the list of objectives, might was well just throw the netlist at someone. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:29:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:29:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 17, 11 02:56:10 pm Message-ID: > > > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift > > > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > > > 100....... And - just playing with systems. > > On Fri, 17 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. > > The [emergency] phone installed in an elevator (lift) has no coin slot? And you can make calls to arbitrary otehr phones from them? Most emergency phones in lifts seem to only connect to the company switchboard operator or similar (for obvious reaosns). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:56:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:56:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pdp 11/40 In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Jun 17, 11 07:14:35 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Bill, > > The 11/40 has jumpers on a lot of the basic boards that have to looked > at in relation to the optional boards (KE11-E M7238, KE11-F M7239, > KT11-D M7236, line clock- M787, and stack limit option. Every option > change require changing jumpers. Every memory set has to have the > right starting address and parity jumpers. One very obvious question at this point : Do you know if this 11/40 has ever worked in precisely this configuration? The likely faults are rather differnet for a machine that has been working and which one day locks up like this, and for a machine that's may well have had options or peripherals removed since it last worked. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:32:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:32:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jun 17, 11 02:57:29 pm Message-ID: > I always find it interesting that people mention unpacking an equation > as one of the reasons they don't like RPN. It is funny because that same > unpacking is exactly what is needed to solve the equation. My view exactrly (and a similar comment was made in the excellent user manuals for HP RPN calcualtors 30-40 years ago). If you cna evaulate the experession by hand -- that is if you can work out what operation to do first, then what to do next, and so on, you cna turn it into RPN with no more work. And if you can't work out how to do it by hand, I don;t think you just just type it into a calcualtor or computer to get an answer that you hope is the right one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 13:10:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:10:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Dan Roganti" at Jun 17, 11 11:07:54 pm Message-ID: > Another example is the SR latch > These days you typically see the NAND gate SR latch. Of course you van cross-couple 2 NOR gats to make an SR latch which has activ-high set and reset inputs. Something that's not often taught in introductory electronics courses is that if you apply De Morgan's law to one of the gates in a cross-coupled NAND SR latch, and then elimate unecessary inverters, you end up with a cross-coupled AND and OR gate. This (a) is easy to understand in terms of 'an AND gate can force a signal to be 0, an OR gate can force it to be 1) nad (b) is useful if you have to fit an SR flip-flop into a pAL or GAL and don't have CAD tools available. > you can actually build a XOR gate from only just 4 NAND gates Sure... > I hope my skills in ascii schematics are still good (using courier font) > > +-----\ > +--------------------| \ > | | O---+ > A input | +-----\ +-----| / | +-----\ > >----+---| \ | +-----/ +-----| \ > | O--| | O--> output > >----+---| / | +-----\ +-----| / > B input | +-----/ +-----| \ | +-----/ > | | O---+ > +--------------------| / > +-----/ As I mentiondi n anothre mesage, the Modem 13A makes an XOR (aor maybe XNOR) gat from the 4 NAND gates in a 74L03, but it doesn't use that circuit. It does it something like : +-|\ | A>----+--| ||>o--+-----------|\ | +-|/ ||>o-----+ +-)----------------------|/ | | | | | | +---------------+ +-----+----->Output | | | | +------|\ | | +-|\ | ||>o-----+ B>--+----| ||>o--+-----------|/ +-|/ | Where ---+--- meaks attach a pull-up resisstor to that point (remember, it's a 7403, so open-collector). As somebody at HPCC said when I shwoeed them the schematic, 'It takes a certaint amount ot style to make an XOR gate from 4 NANDs nad not use the stnadard cirucit'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:44:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:44:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book.. In-Reply-To: from "cctech@vax-11.org" at Jun 17, 11 04:30:17 pm Message-ID: > Microcode engines are a subset of state machines which read the state > transitions from an external memory instead of the transitions being > developed by random logic. So if you make a cotnrol system using a latch and a PROM programemd to contain the state transistion logic for what I would term a 'state machine', then it's microcode? And if you repalce the microcodoe ROMs in a processor with a large board of decoder ICs and logical OR gates (which is all a ROM is intenrally), said processor ceases to br microcoded? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:41:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:41:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110617221849.GA71767@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jun 17, 11 06:18:49 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift > > > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > > > 100....... And - just playing with systems. > > > > I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. > > I was waiting to hear the rest of this, about the duct tape, the > whipped cream and the hamsters. Duct tape to hopd the accoustic coupler cups to the handset Hamsters to run in lettle treadmill wheels to generate electricity to charge a battery to run the M100 But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? [And the more normal (?) connotations of those objects are not suitable for a family mailing list like this one :-)] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 13:16:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:16:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 17, 11 09:55:52 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Jun 2011 at 23:07, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > I guess another basic way to describe is this way > > A positive Logic AND gate is the equivalent to a Negative Logic OR > > gate. It's not the bubble input/output OR gate that you see when using > > DeMorgan theorem.. So the true state in a AND gate is inverted when > > you're using the OR gate. > > It's *exactly* the DeMorgan equivalent. One assumes that all logic > levels have a bubble associated with them, so you don't make it > explicit. It's just a convention--"1" can be light off, with "0" > light on. Or a given phase difference in an AC signal or "1"= tomato > soup and "0"=cream of mushroom. Some of the old databooks (I can't > recall which) used to show logic gates both ways for reference. > > Heck, most decent buses (e.g. floppy, Multibus, GPIB) are negative > logic. The control lines on most RAM chips are negative (CS is > usually low-voltage=true along with WR = low, true). I don't see > EE's driving themselves to drink over it. If we'dve created TTL > using PNP transistors instead of NPN, would we be having the opposite > discussion? > > > Another example is the SR latch > > These days you typically see the NAND gate SR latch. > > Where the Q output is set to True state(logic1) using the low input - > > assert logic O This is still postive logic , but with inverted > > assertion level on the inputs Before when the first IC's came about > > 50yrs ago, you typically see NOR gate SR latches. Where the Q output > > is set to True state(logic 0) using a True state/low input - logic 0 > > again So the NOR SR latch is really a Negative Logic SR latch A very > > good example of Negative Logic design is the NASA AGC. > > You see NOR logic SR latches in RTL and that doesn't require negative > logic (at least by your "high voltage = true" definition.. > > > you can actually build a XOR gate from only just 4 NAND gates > > I hope my skills in ascii schematics are still good (using courier > > font) > > Yes, but I don't see what that has to do with the thread. If you're > going to dedicate a whole quad NAND package to a single 2-input-XOR, > that's not terribly efficient. Although probably every undergrad > computer logic professor has pointed out this "neat trick" in class > for the last 40+ years, I don't believe it's glitchless, so it's not > a really good choice. > > --Chuck > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 13:17:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:17:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFBCD68.17048.29ADCCC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 17, 11 09:55:52 pm Message-ID: > Heck, most decent buses (e.g. floppy, Multibus, GPIB) are negative Unibus, Omnibus, Qbus, etc... > logic. The control lines on most RAM chips are negative (CS is > usually low-voltage=true along with WR = low, true). I don't see > EE's driving themselves to drink over it. If we'dve created TTL > using PNP transistors instead of NPN, would we be having the opposite > discussion? Gieen that an unconnected TTL input floats high (yes, I know you shouldnever rely o nthat, but plenty of computer companies did :-(), and that the output sinks a lot better than it sources, I often thought it would ahve made more sense to fice the TTL '0' an high and the '1' as low. So a 7400 becomes aNOR gate, etc. I guess they wanted to keep the convetions establisehd with DTL, though -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 15:02:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:02:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 18, 11 08:45:28 am Message-ID: > > =A0Negative logic design is usually not for the faint hearted ;) > > I've owned PDP-8s for 70% of my life and I still struggle to really > understand the R-series stuff. I cna't beleive it's worse than the HP9100 where the logic runs off a -15V supply and the flip-flop inputs are current-operated (directly onto the base of a PNP transistor). The emitter of that transistor goes to a not-so-negative rail (-2.4V or something like that). The diode-and-resisotr AND gate looks like this Input A ----->|------+-----|<------- Output | Input B --/\/\/------+ 4k7 Basically, Current will be sunk form the output (thus turning on the flip-flop input transistor provided input B is -ve (to provde a path for the curren throug hthe resistor) and input A is -ve (if it's ground, the currne will be drawn through the left hand diode, the right-hand diode will be cut off (remmeber the trnasitor emiter returns to a -2.4V rail). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 15:08:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:08:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 18, 11 08:54:18 am Message-ID: > > The [emergency] phone installed in an elevator (lift) has no coin slot? > > I was not aware that emergency phones in lifts in the UK were attached > to the PSTN in a way you could gain control of the line. My That's what normally happens. Occasionally, you can call any telephone withing that compnay from it (this is normally used in lifts where the public do not hae general access), but getting an outside line is not at all common. Of course if you can call any telephone device in that company, you might be able to connect ot a dial-in modem of the company computer system, but if you can get access to such a ligt you are probalby working for said company anyway. > The closest to this that I'm aware of in my neck of the woods was an > acquaintance of mine who loaded the family Apple II into the station > wagon and parked by the garden center of the nearby K-Mart. It had a > payphone next to an accessible power outlet. I don't recall hearing > any tales of split-second getaways, but the arrangement did afford a > quick exit. At one time public telephone boxes in the UK had a light in them which used a normal mains filamnet bulb. There are stories of hackers/crackers removing said bulb and pluging a BC plug into the lampholder to run a terminal/modem. I do not know how reliable said storeis are... [Even older telephone boxes had a mirror in them, for what reason $deity-only-knows, and I've met a person who claimed to have removed the bulb from such a telephone box to plug in an electric shaver which he then used, along with the mirror, for the normal purpose] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:48:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:48:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFB78DE.12271.150A093@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 17, 11 03:55:10 pm Message-ID: > > If I see a two input OR with bubbles on both inputs and the output, I > automatically (i.e. without a lot of conscious thought) say, "That's Sure, it dfoens;t take much thought. but it does jolt me for a couple of milliseconds. I find I follow things more easily if I do the DeMorganing in my head. > a negative-logic OR that's masquerading as a positive-logic AND gate. > It's pretty much automatic, like resistor color code--you don't > mentally run the color chart or some inande mnemonic aid in your > head, you just grab a 47K resistor out of the pile because it looks > like a 47K resistor. Sure... (Although I do have to think a little for some of the E96 series still) > So give me the DeMorganed representation any day. I'll have more > confidence that the designer has his thought processes straight. > > On the other hand, conventional logic symbols are weak in that they > shows the component units, but doesn't necessarily show what they're > supposed to do. For example, it may be expeditious to construct a > XOR gate from leftover NAND gates and inverters, but there's no good > way to show the intended function and still keep the components > identified. Well, tyou vcan label that as a block on the scheamtic, I guess. Incidentally, I always liked the way that DEC drew a NAND gate symbol rounf the juntionons on a wired-AND of open-colllector gates. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:53:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:53:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming In-Reply-To: <4DFBE178.4050909@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 18, 11 00:21:28 am Message-ID: > They're useful for quite a lot of things. There's a neat design for a 'They' meaining stroboscopes or white LEDs? Either is applicable. > simple fixed-frequency short-pulse LED strobe, with construction notes, > on the vinylengine website: > > http://www.vinylengine.com/diy-strobe.shtml > http://downloads.nakedresource.com/download_centre/index.php?diy_strobe.pdf I designed my own on the back of an envelope and had it work first time. The vairable one uses 4000-series CMOS logic with a 7555 oscilator, the 50/60Hz one uses 74HC(T) logic with one of those 4-pin oscilator moduels as the clock. The reason I needed astorboscope intitially, BTW was when I had to rewind the motors in my HP9125A plotter and whatned to check the voltage-speed characteristics of the 2 repaired motors was similar. It was. That needed the asjustable strobe. I knocked up the 50/60Hz one using bits from the junk box, and found it very useful for setting up floppy drive spindle speeds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 12:27:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 18:27:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Pdp 11/40 In-Reply-To: <42c9fd62-85be-4136-8e4b-9a4b0d5a6b39@email.android.com> from "B Degnan" at Jun 17, 11 05:53:06 pm Message-ID: > > Running pdp 11/40 power ok. Power on...freezes with proc and bus lights on = > and no front panel response. Working to resolve any off the cuff ideas? Wil= > l post details if anyone interested to help. What boards do you have in the system, in particular, what is the terminator at the 'far' end of the Unibus? On machiens with an M9302 terminator (this is common in 11/34 machines, but it can be used in others), a common caus of faults like this is an open grant chain, or a malfunctioning peripharal controller that's asserting a greant to deviced further down the bus when it shouldn't be. The M9302 terminaotr has a circuit that asserts SACK if a grant getrs as far as the terminaotr. The problem comes when that grant doesn't start from the processor -- the temiaator asserts SACK, but the process can't deassert the grant line becuase it wasn't asserting it in the first palce. The machine thnn totally locks up. Another cause of this sort of problem in soem machines if if the ACLO or DCLO signals on the Unibus are sserted. This might indicate a problem with te appropratie circuitry in the power supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 13:20:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:20:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <915f3e2632fbaa2064fadbfcf6e0f0dd@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 18, 11 00:04:48 am Message-ID: > > Postifix ('RPN') .vs. Infix ('algebraic;) :-) > > Manifest in the 70's as HP vs TI. Over here, TI calcualtros were not particularly common. The common brand was (and is, I guess) Casio. Of course those of us who prefer RPN bought HPs. -tony [Mind you, when i saw a pristine TI59 with magnetic cards, stnadard library module and hard and soft cases i na charity shop, I grabbed it...] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 15:40:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:40:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Is It With Mains Filters? In-Reply-To: from "Dave Caroline" at Jun 18, 11 06:22:00 pm Message-ID: > > They are a special type of supposedly "self healing" capacitor able to > withstand spikes without catching fire. > You would be surprised if you scoped your supply, a lot of spikes Be careful if ou try this. One side of the 'scope input is earthed (and conencted to the metal case of the 'scope). Connectign a ;scope probe to the maisn will trip an RCD if you have one, or, if you get the leads the otehr way runnd, blow fuses or worse > arrive unless you filter upstream, they have a hard life. > Replace with the best you can. You can get capacitors designed for mains filtering from RS and Farnell. IIRC, there are class X deisgned ot go between live and neutral and class Y designed to go betwene either sideo f hte mains an earth .The latter are specially deisnged so that they can't fail shorted, for obvious safety reasons. Although IU dislike 'shotgun debugging', I must admit that when one capacitor in a mains filter circuit fails, I normally replace the lot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 18 15:50:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:50:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFC9985.9817.144AFDF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 18, 11 12:26:45 pm Message-ID: > However, I increasingly run across schematics where a number of > packages are drawn with tags on almost all leads. Somehow, to get > an idea of the logic flow, you're expected to map out the connections I find it quite helpful to have major funcional blocks (control sequencer, accumualator input gating, etc) drawn essentially semarate with named signals goin in and out. Provided those names are well-chosing. A name like 'muClk' (Microcode clock) is fine. But when some 'genius' decided to call the signals AA, AB, AC, ... AZ, BA, BB, BC etc. it gets painful. You can also go too far the otehr way. It often helps _not_ to draw in all the pwoer and groudn rails, for example, but to have a marker for each one like +5V --- | Othwies the power and gorund lines clutter up the schematic. And I do find that when you have many unlabbled lines running paralell to each otehr across a large scheamtic it can be very hard to make sure you're following the right one. As with most things there's a balance between drawing i nthe connections and breakign them and giving them sensible names. > in your head, or use colored ink to connect the points until a real > schematic emerges. About half of the time, I simply give up and draw > my own schematic. > > Inevitably, these are the result of some CAD schematic-with-PCB EDA > tool. Curiously, I've never seen an EDA tool to convert this stuff > into more conventionally human-readable schematic form. > > Maybe they're not intended to be read by people, but merely serve as > a reference from which to construct netlists, but I'd still like to > see the guy who figured it was a good thing get his come-uppance. I find virtually all CAD-prodsuced schematics to be very hard to follow. I am not sure why, but I much prefer the scheamtics of the 1970s to those produced today. And don't get me started on the multi-colour schematics prosduced by some CAD systems where ICs are one colour, passives are another colour, wires are a 3rd colour and so on. -tony From db at db.net Sat Jun 18 16:08:36 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:08:36 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <20110617221849.GA71767@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110618210836.GA21014@night.db.net> On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 06:41:36PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > On Fri, Jun 17, 2011 at 10:11:49PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a lift ... > Hamsters to run in lettle treadmill wheels to generate electricity to > charge a battery to run the M100 > > But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? Why to feed the hungry hamsters of course! > > [And the more normal (?) connotations of those objects are not suitable > for a family mailing list like this one :-)] You, have a dirty mind! - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth? From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 16:22:58 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:22:58 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in a Gandalf 6' Communication Rack in the Portland area Message-ID: Picked up the intel 330 and 380 today, thanks Vince. However I think I am not going to keep the rack. It is a 6 foot communication rack mount case with a dark glass door and the Gandalf logo on the front top, on wheels. I could deliver it in the Portland Oregon area on Monday as it is in my van at the moment. I want to keep the rails for the 330 and 380 but can leave the power distributor if whomever takes it wants it. Paxton currently in Portland/Eugene but going back to Astoria on Monday. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 18 16:38:27 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110618140636.F879@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I was not aware that emergency phones in lifts in the UK were attached > to the PSTN in a way you could gain control of the line. My > understanding (which could be inaccurate, I admit) is that in the > States, either the phone rings an internal maintenance number (for > buildings that are staffed 24/7, and that may be an obsolete practice > by now anyway) or it autodials to some off-site service that may > eventually result in someone being sent to the site. You don't now > nor ever did have a way of getting a dial tone. No Personal Experience, but I have heard that, not all autodial systems are completely secure. For example, could it be possible to drop the party at the other end, without actually dropping the connection? "I know! Just tell whoever answers at the offsite service to press 90#" :-) From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jun 18 13:19:19 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 11:19:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <271747.62598.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/17/11, Dan Roganti wrote: > eh-hem, > Yeoman Janice Rand? vs.? Counsler Deanna Troi ;) We never did get to see Spock and Kahn duke it out, did we? Or Spock and the Gorn. Was just thinking to myself... 7 of 9 will kick all their collective butts! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 18 16:55:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 14:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: elevator phones, was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion In-Reply-To: <4DFCEA2F.6090702@neurotica.com> References: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> <4DFCEA2F.6090702@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110618145421.C879@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > dialed "411". We got the number for the nearest Domino's (a crappy US > pizza delivery chain), called that using the same method, and ordered a > pizza. We requested that it be delivered to that address, "to the > northeast elevator, between floors 4 and 5". We described our situation > to the Domino's guy, he seemed to believe us, and said our pizza would > be on its way shortly. > Sadly, he obviously didn't believe us, and the pizza never arrived, > and we left the elevator when the service guy showed up and reset the > controller. If he didn't deliver by the time the service guy showed up, then they owe you a free one, and that needs to be published on WWW! From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jun 18 17:00:07 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:00:07 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack><4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com> <660496D935DF40CAA8718D05CC1120C9@vshack> Message-ID: <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2011 11:12 AM Subject: Re: More Sorcerer musings. Cassette interface issue,or a MESS programming issue? >> The burner will almost certainly have a read mode. If it were me, and I >> realize this is sort of belt and suspenders thinking, I would read and >> display the suspected bad EPROM contents using the burner. You will >> likely see the same results, but it should definitely confirm (or >> question) your original very fine analysis. >> Later, >> Charlie C. > > Yes, I will do that Charlie. Well, I've spent a few hours today playing with my Dual Powered Standard Willem ROM burner. It seems reasonably straightforward. I've managed to read the contents of a few 27C256 EPROMS successfully. However, I couldn't read the contents of the BASIC-PAC 2k masked ROMS? I'm sure I have all the jumpers and switches right for a 2716, which I understand is an equivalant EPROM chip . All I got from all the ROMS was a repeating pattern of 0406 for 256 bytes then 1416 for the next 256 bytes and so on. I've checked and rechecked the settings and they seem right? Thinking I might have damaged the original ROMs by trying to read them I re-checked them again in the Sorcerer monitor. The data was still intact, except for the faulty ROM 3, which as before showed all zeros. I did read on a website somewhere that some masked ROMS could not be read by some EPROM programmers. Do you think that's the case here? I won't be able to burn any 27C16s to fix the ROM-PAC until the chips arrive in the post it's a waiting game for now. Terry From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 17:13:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:13:37 -0700 Subject: What Is It With Mains Filters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFCC0A1.19970.1DD71B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 16:09, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Mains filters from the 50's and 60's likely had > paper/wax capacitors in them. At least in the US, > there doesn't seem to have been a special rating > system for these but most cap failures were benign (not > purely luck... even though there was no special rating > they were generally made to be on the robust end.) Don't forget disc ceramic caps used in this application as well. There were even some 3-lead ones made with the center lead meant to be chassis ground. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 18 17:18:57 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 23:18:57 +0100 Subject: Telequipment S51B Oscilloscope Free to a Good Home Message-ID: <005601cc2e05$b8ce6530$2a6b2f90$@ntlworld.com> I was given this oscilloscope recently but have since acquired a better one. This is a single channel oscilloscope and contains valves. The trace drifts up and down a bit and it is probably not calibrated either. I have a manual for it too. You just pay the postage. The item is in Manchester, UK. Regards Rob From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 17:31:03 2011 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 23:31:03 +0100 Subject: Telequipment S51B Oscilloscope Free to a Good Home In-Reply-To: <005601cc2e05$b8ce6530$2a6b2f90$@ntlworld.com> References: <005601cc2e05$b8ce6530$2a6b2f90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Hello Rob, I'd happily take that off your hands if it's not been bagged already. I've collected kit from your house before so no postage hassle either. Cheers, Pete On 18 June 2011 23:18, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I was given this oscilloscope recently but have since acquired a better > one. > This is a single channel oscilloscope and contains valves. The trace drifts > up and down a bit and it is probably not calibrated either. I have a manual > for it too. > > You just pay the postage. The item is in Manchester, UK. > > Regards > > Rob > > -- Pete Edwards "There's a man with a mullet going mad with a mallet in Millets!" - HMHB From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 18 17:38:57 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 15:38:57 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Jun 18, at 11:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Another example is the SR latch >> These days you typically see the NAND gate SR latch. > > Of course you van cross-couple 2 NOR gats to make an SR latch which has > activ-high set and reset inputs. > > Something that's not often taught in introductory electronics courses > is > that if you apply De Morgan's law to one of the gates in a > cross-coupled > NAND SR latch, and then elimate unecessary inverters, you end up with a > cross-coupled AND and OR gate. This (a) is easy to understand in terms > of > 'an AND gate can force a signal to be 0, an OR gate can force it to be > 1) > nad (b) is useful if you have to fit an SR flip-flop into a pAL or GAL > and don't have CAD tools available. I have early calculators where flip-flops are built from a single physical OR gate. The output feeds back to one input so the gate will latch-up on itself. The other inputs to the OR gate are SET inputs, sending one true will latch true. The gate is OC, so RESET inputs are created with simply diodes or direct connections wire-ANDed to the output/loopback-input. Sending such an input false will force the output false and it will latch in that state. So it's actually best described as a flip-flop built with an OR gate and a diode-AND or wire-AND gate. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 18 18:58:55 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 16:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? To feed to the hamsters? To cover the lens of the security camera? From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 18:58:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:58:56 -0400 Subject: elevator phones, was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion In-Reply-To: <20110618145421.C879@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110617145428.Q63301@shell.lmi.net> <4DFCEA2F.6090702@neurotica.com> <20110618145421.C879@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DFD3BC0.7070009@neurotica.com> On 6/18/11 5:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> dialed "411". We got the number for the nearest Domino's (a crappy US >> pizza delivery chain), called that using the same method, and ordered a >> pizza. We requested that it be delivered to that address, "to the >> northeast elevator, between floors 4 and 5". We described our situation >> to the Domino's guy, he seemed to believe us, and said our pizza would >> be on its way shortly. >> Sadly, he obviously didn't believe us, and the pizza never arrived, >> and we left the elevator when the service guy showed up and reset the >> controller. > > If he didn't deliver by the time the service guy showed up, then they owe > you a free one, and that needs to be published on WWW! ROFL! Yes, a great many of the stories from the early Digex days really do need to be published, now that the statute of limitations has run out. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 19:02:07 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:02:07 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DFD3C7F.4060201@neurotica.com> On 6/18/11 7:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? > > To feed to the hamsters? > To cover the lens of the security camera? Somebody mentioned Seven of Nine earlier.. -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 19:19:38 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 01:19:38 +0100 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 June 2011 22:30, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 16 June 2011 20:53, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> > -tony (Who can't use an infix calculator). >> >> Really? So you can't read or write algebraic equations, either? > > YEs, I can. but actually, I find postfix notation a lot clearer and more > logical. > > When it comes to using a calcualtor, I find that if I try to use an infix > one, I am forver prssign the keys in the wrong order (as in 'OK, I want > to halve that result' and will press the 2 before the divide key, thus > reasign the result on an infix machine). > > With an infix machine, I have to think what I am doing all the time, with > an RPN machine, it's automatic. > > And that's not to mention the fact that on an RPN machine I know exactly > what will happen when I press a key (the operaion will be executed there > and then, noting is stored for later use), wehreas on an infix machien I > have ot think 'does this machien obey the heirarchy rules, and if so, > which ones). > > In otehr words, on an ifix machine, I have to think what '1+2*3' will > evaluate to, on an RPN machine I know exactly what 1 2 3 * + or > 1 2 + 3 * will do. > >> >> Because if you can type it, you have therefore shown that can press >> buttons in that order - which is how calculators work. > > Firsltym not it isn't (see above) amd secondly, it appears that you and I > use claculators in differnet ways. Very often I don't have an expression > to evaulate. It's more a matter of 'Let's work out the reactance of that > cpaactiro at this frequency. Now let's add on (in quadrature) the total > resistance of that chaim. Now let's work out...' That sort of thing is > much easier on an RPN machine, I can assure you. > >> Personally, at a wet-behind-the-ears 43y old, I've never used an RPN >> calculator, but I know that I don't really understand RPN and trying >> to unpack equations and rewrite them in RPN was extremely hard work >> for me... > > Odd. It took me less than an afternoon to learn it about 30 years ago. > And I am darn glad I did. Thanks for the serious answer! I'm intrigued. I don't understand, but that's OK. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 19:20:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:20:09 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4DFCDE49.28048.2514B7B@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 15:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I have early calculators where flip-flops are built from a single > physical OR gate. The output feeds back to one input so the gate will > latch-up on itself. I've seen that done with CMOS logic as well. Or a neon lamp, biased just below firimg, with the trigger capacitively coupled in. (I believe there were also some 3-lead neon lamps (wire-lead) where the third electrode could be used for triggering). Whatever happened to AC-coupled (pulse) logic anyway? --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 18 19:25:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFD3C7F.4060201@neurotica.com> References: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> <4DFD3C7F.4060201@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110618172323.V879@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 18 Jun 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? > > To cover the lens of the security camera? > > Somebody mentioned Seven of Nine earlier.. Is that a "Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass" reference? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 18 19:53:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 17:53:14 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4DFCE60A.11663.26F944A@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2011 at 1:19, Liam Proven wrote: > I'm intrigued. I don't understand, but that's OK. After having used both infix and postfix calculators, I think postfix is far more natural to my way of thinking. But that might also be because of too much time spent with the HP16C. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 20:25:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:25:26 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFCE60A.11663.26F944A@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DFCE60A.11663.26F944A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DFD5006.7000909@neurotica.com> On 6/18/11 8:53 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > After having used both infix and postfix calculators, I think postfix > is far more natural to my way of thinking. But that might also be > because of too much time spent with the HP16C. Or just enough. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 20:56:35 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:56:35 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 3:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > TTL (or other MSI) .vs PLDs/FPGAs > Microcontrollers .vs. random logic > ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually =Dan From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 21:14:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:14:20 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:56 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >>> TTL (or other MSI) .vs PLDs/FPGAs >>> >> >> Microcontrollers .vs. random logic >> > > > ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually I use PALASM and I edit its input files with emacs. So there! ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 21:19:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:19:15 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110618172323.V879@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> <4DFD3C7F.4060201@neurotica.com> <20110618172323.V879@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <80015015-CBA3-45EE-A411-6A1CAACEF83C@neurotica.com> >>>> But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? >>> To cover the lens of the security camera? >> >> Somebody mentioned Seven of Nine earlier.. > > Is that a "Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass" reference? Ah, no. Star Trek: Voyager. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 21:25:34 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:25:34 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 18, 2011, at 9:56 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >>> TTL (or other MSI) .vs PLDs/FPGAs > >>> > >> > >> Microcontrollers .vs. random logic > >> > > > > > > ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually > > I use PALASM and I edit its input files with emacs. So there! ;) > > > be a man, and edit the Fusemaps by hand ! ;) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 18 21:51:14 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 19:51:14 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6567bf886d2961c1cebdda6615d59db7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 18, at 11:20 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Postifix ('RPN') .vs. Infix ('algebraic;) :-) >> Manifest in the 70's as HP vs TI. > > Over here, TI calcualtros were not particularly common. The common > brand > was (and is, I guess) Casio. > Interesting, do you know if TI didn't make much market effort over there, or their calcs just weren't well-received in the market? > Of course those of us who prefer RPN bought HPs. I never used them much, but the hidden state in infix calculators didn't inspire confidence during a calculation. There is state in an RPN calculator too, of course - the stack - but it is reviewable at any time, you can check all the intermediate results for saneness as you go. I still love my little HP-21. > -tony [Mind you, when i saw a pristine TI59 with magnetic cards, > stnadard > library module and hard and soft cases i na charity shop, I grabbed > it...] From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 18 22:15:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <80015015-CBA3-45EE-A411-6A1CAACEF83C@neurotica.com> References: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> <4DFD3C7F.4060201@neurotica.com> <20110618172323.V879@shell.lmi.net> <80015015-CBA3-45EE-A411-6A1CAACEF83C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110618193755.F879@shell.lmi.net> > >>>> But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? > >> Somebody mentioned Seven of Nine earlier.. > > Is that a "Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass" reference? On Sat, 18 Jun 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Ah, no. Star Trek: Voyager. That part is a given. But, You DIDN'T have a mental image of ST:V's 7of9 replacing Delores Ericson on their album cover? http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/booth-reviews/2010/12/song-of-the-day---whipped-cream-by-herb-alpert-the-tijuana-brass.html If you have 7of9 in the lift with you, you don't feed the whipcream to the hamsters. Why didn't she make an 8 rating? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 22:49:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 23:49:45 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110618193755.F879@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> <4DFD3C7F.4060201@neurotica.com> <20110618172323.V879@shell.lmi.net> <80015015-CBA3-45EE-A411-6A1CAACEF83C@neurotica.com> <20110618193755.F879@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4DFD71D9.2070109@neurotica.com> On 6/18/11 11:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? >>>> Somebody mentioned Seven of Nine earlier.. >>> Is that a "Herb Alpert and the Tijuana Brass" reference? > >> Ah, no. Star Trek: Voyager. > > > That part is a given. But, > You DIDN'T have a mental image of ST:V's 7of9 replacing Delores Ericson > on their album cover? > http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/booth-reviews/2010/12/song-of-the-day---whipped-cream-by-herb-alpert-the-tijuana-brass.html Ahh, no I hadn't seen that. But yes, I see exactly what you mean. ;) > If you have 7of9 in the lift with you, you don't feed the whipcream to > the hamsters. Why didn't she make an 8 rating? Oh so very true. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 22:50:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 23:50:30 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> On 6/18/11 10:25 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >>> ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually >> >> I use PALASM and I edit its input files with emacs. So there! ;) >> >> >> be a man, and edit the Fusemaps by hand ! ;) ...with an X-Acto knife after de-capping the chip! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 18 23:00:15 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:00:15 -0400 Subject: DEC paint color matching? In-Reply-To: <20110616112322.GT2435@n0jcf.net> References: <20110615190928.GF8128@n0jcf.net> <4DF92F20.6070402@neurotica.com> <20110616112322.GT2435@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4DFD744F.9090901@neurotica.com> On 6/16/11 7:23 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >>> Has anyone ever tried to color match spray paint to the DEC "taupe" >>> color (ie, the color of the front of a {clean} RL02)? >>> >>> I've got a bunch of stuff now with scratches and rust which I'd like to >>> attempt to touch up or repaint. >>> >>> Is there any sort of standard color code for that DEC color? >> >> I have this information in my notes. This is from a thread on >> this list several years ago. > > Cool! Thanks Dave. > > So, which of these "grey" colors is the off-white of an M9642 "corporate > rack"? > > I'm trying to match the off-white or as someone told me "toupe" color > of the trim on that rack. This color is also very close to or the same > as the front of an RL02 or the trim on an RX01/RX02. Sadly I have no clue of which one it is. That info might be in the print sets.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jun 18 23:39:09 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 23:39:09 -0500 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFD7D6D.2020209@tx.rr.com> On 6/17/2011 3:43 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> In computing (not talking about audio here) I don't think there was >> much debate about valves vs. transistors. Transistors were pretty >> quickly embraced for computer hardware when manufacturing and >> reliability were sufficient for the application. > > However, the last isvery important. Professor Wilkes told me (IIRC) that > the most unreliable components in EDSAC were the germanium diodes. > > -tony > Any idea if that was due to their mechanical construction? I recall a computer system in the early 60's that was plagued with diodes that would sometimes open up with the slightest vibration. Then in the mid 60's I worked on an optical character reader with many more diodes but nary a problem with them. I seem to recall the latter ones being referred to as having "unitrode" construction, which could be my faulty memory, or perhaps that was a TI term as we were using their diodes extensively in the OCR system. Later, Charlie C. From ragooman at gmail.com Sat Jun 18 23:39:15 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 00:39:15 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> References: <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 11:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/18/11 10:25 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually >>>> >>> >>> I use PALASM and I edit its input files with emacs. So there! ;) >>> >>> >>> be a man, and edit the Fusemaps by hand ! ;) >>> >> > ...with an X-Acto knife after de-capping the chip! > > haha Our first programmer at work would have a view of the fusemap on the CRT for each given PAL and you had to fill in the worksheet for that fusemap and use that as your guide as you scroll the cursor thru the screen to mark the appropriate fuse for your design to program. I still can't recall who made that programmer. =Dan From george at rachors.com Sun Jun 19 00:03:09 2011 From: george at rachors.com (George Rachor) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:03:09 -0700 Subject: Anyone interested in a Gandalf 6' Communication Rack in the Portland area In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47F4DE43-9F62-40D1-8AA2-FCD8BAD3861C@rachors.com> Glad the hardware has found a good home. George PS: Ether the 330 or 380 may boot up with xenix 3.5 on it... I helped the owner load it years ago. On Jun 18, 2011, at 2:22 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote: > Picked up the intel 330 and 380 today, thanks Vince. However I think I > am not going to keep the rack. It is a 6 foot communication rack mount > case with a dark glass door and the Gandalf logo on the front top, on > wheels. > > I could deliver it in the Portland Oregon area on Monday as it is in > my van at the moment. I want to keep the rails for the 330 and 380 but > can leave the power distributor if whomever takes it wants it. > > Paxton > currently in Portland/Eugene but going back to Astoria on Monday. > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 19 00:19:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 18 Jun 2011 22:19:17 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFD7D6D.2020209@tx.rr.com> References: , <4DFD7D6D.2020209@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4DFD2465.32536.3632A72@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jun 2011 at 23:39, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Any idea if that was due to their mechanical construction? I recall a > computer system in the early 60's that was plagued with diodes that > would sometimes open up with the slightest vibration. Then in the mid > 60's I worked on an optical character reader with many more diodes but > nary a problem with them. I seem to recall the latter ones being > referred to as having "unitrode" construction, which could be my > faulty memory, or perhaps that was a TI term as we were using their > diodes extensively in the OCR system. Later, Charlie C. 1960's diodes were very different from 1950's. Here's a shot of a 1N34: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1n34.html You can see the "cat whisker" construction in the lower right corner. You can see the construction quite a bit more clearly in this shot of a 1N21 silicon microwave mixer diode: http://www.radiomuseum.org/tubes/tube_1n21a.html Delicate mechanically, and with a current limit of 5 ma, very easy to destroy. Also, the characteristics diode-to-diode were far from uniform. Still, for the postwar hobbyist, the 1N34/1N34A was "the" diode to use. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 19 02:25:52 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:25:52 +0100 Subject: What Is It With Mains Filters? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006b01cc2e52$20298650$607c92f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim > Sent: 18 June 2011 21:10 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: What Is It With Mains Filters? > > > All the PSUs that have had components pop on me have all been > > capacitors in the mains filter (except the H7140 in my PDP11 but that > > was only after I had been messing with it to try to fix it, so that doesn't > count). > > Not being an expert in electronics I am not sure of the reason for > > this. Can someone explain? Is it the type of capacitor? Is that type > > of capacitor only used in mains filters? If not, why have I (so far) > > not seen other PSU capacitors blow up? > > Not sure how far you're going back but... > > Mains filters from the 50's and 60's likely had paper/wax capacitors in them. > At least in the US, there doesn't seem to have been a special rating system for > these but most cap failures were benign (not purely luck... even though there > was no special rating they were generally made to be on the robust end.) > > "Modern" ones (70's onwards) have specially rated X1, X2, Y2 capacitors. In > small filters these are likely to be ceramics and in larger ones (especially > snubber > networks) they are more likely to be boxed film capacitors. > They all have special fire protection and surge voltage ratings. They do not > necessarily lead "Easy" lives - if some nearby inductive appliance is putting > crap into the power line, it's the small devices on the same circuit or nearby > branch that may end up eating it. > > Tim.= The ones I have had fail have all been in MicroVAX II PSUs (both BA23 and BA123) and a DECserver. In fact, every single one of my MicroVAX IIs has had this problem. As Tony said, when one fails I replace them all. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 19 02:37:18 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:37:18 +0100 Subject: Looking for a MicroVAX II BA123 Front Panel Door Message-ID: <006c01cc2e53$b97ecd00$2c7c6700$@ntlworld.com> I recently acquired a MicroVAX II in a BA123 (World Box) enclosure. It has cleaned up really well. The only niggle is that I am missing the little door that goes over the front panel at the lower left of the enclosure. Does anyone have one of these going spare? Regards Rob From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 19 04:59:09 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:59:09 +0100 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFDC86D.10507@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/06/2011 18:53, Tony Duell wrote: > The reason I needed astorboscope intitially, BTW was when I had to rewind > the motors in my HP9125A plotter and whatned to check the voltage-speed > characteristics of the 2 repaired motors was similar. It was. > > That needed the asjustable strobe. I knocked up the 50/60Hz one using > bits from the junk box, and found it very useful for setting up floppy > drive spindle speeds. The one I gave the link to, was for a similar purpose -- checking the speed of turntables for vinyl records -- though it could be used for anything you can put a 50/60Hz strobe pattern on. It's an elegant 2-IC design (a CD4060 and a CD4013) that runs off a PP3 and fits in a small standard box. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 19 06:06:24 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:06:24 +1200 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? References: Message-ID: As usual I've written something on the experiences of getting software for the Sorcerer. It might be helpful to others and at the very least it means I won't forget what I did! http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-18-sorcerer-software-stockup.htm Terry From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 19 07:25:37 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:25:37 +0100 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack><4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com> <660496D935DF40CAA8718D05CC1120C9@vshack> <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack> Message-ID: <4DFDEAC1.9020409@dunnington.plus.com> On 18/06/2011 23:00, Terry Stewart wrote: > Well, I've spent a few hours today playing with my Dual Powered Standard > Willem ROM burner. > > It seems reasonably straightforward. I've managed to read the contents > of a few 27C256 EPROMS successfully. However, I couldn't read the > contents of the BASIC-PAC 2k masked ROMS? I'm sure I have all the > jumpers and switches right for a 2716, which I understand is an > equivalant EPROM chip . A 2716 is an equivalent for 2K x 8 bit mask ROMs in the sense that the capacity is the same, and the data and address lines are on the same pins. However the the chip selects need not be. One of the characteristics that can be "programmed" in the mask is the polarity of the chip select pins. Also an EPROM has pins for programming voltages as well as chip selects. > I did read on a website somewhere that some masked ROMS could not be > read by some EPROM programmers. Do you think that's the case here? No, you just need to deal with the chip select requirements. In this case, the pins that might differ are pins 19, 20, and 21. Pin 19 is A10 on most ROMs and EPROMs, but 12V on 3-rail 2716s. You're unlikely to come across those, so it's unlikely to be of concern. On mask ROMs, pin 20 is a chip select that can be active-high or active-low; on 3-rail 2716 EPROMs it's the A10 address line, and on single-rail 2716s, which are by far the most common, it's an active-low chip select. The Exidy mask ROMs have it as an active-low so it's the same as a common 2716. Pin 21 is most likely to be the problem. On a 3-rail 2716 it's -5V. More importantly, on mask ROMs it's a chip select that can be defined active-low, active-high, or "don't care", while on single-rail 2716s it's a programming voltage, and is set to +5V for reading. That's what your programmer is probably doing, but the mask ROMs you want to read use that pin as an active-low chip select. The solution is to carefully bend pin 21 out sideways a little, just enough that it doesn't go into the programmer socket. Then connect it to pin 12 (0V) with a short test clip. Set up like that, you should be able to read the ROM. Of course you need to make similar arrangements in reverse, if you put a 2716 (or 2732) EPROM into the ROM PAC. Specifically, if you replace one of the mask ROMs with a single-rail 2716 EPROM, look on the PAC's PCB for a set of small pads (jumper positions) with a number that matches the number beside the ROM socket. Looking at the PCB from the component side, with the card edge connector to the left, the sets of jumpers are labelled 1-4 left-right and are in the gap between the LSTTL chips anbd the ROM sockets. The ROMs are 2 (top left) and 4 (top right) and 1 (bottom left) and 3 (bottom right. The arrangement of jumper pads on the PCB matches the layout in the circuit diagram in the Tech Manual. You need to disconnect pin 21 from GND (0V) and jumper it to +5V -- but when you isolate 21 from 0V you will almost certainly also isolate pin 20, so you need to reconnect that to 0V with another jumper afterwards. Photo of one of mine at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pnt103/5848026101/ -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 08:21:59 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 06:21:59 -0700 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: <4DFDEAC1.9020409@dunnington.plus.com> References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz> <213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack><4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com> <660496D935DF40CAA8718D05CC1120C9@vshack>, <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack>, <4DFDEAC1.9020409@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:25:37 +0100 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > > On 18/06/2011 23:00, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > Well, I've spent a few hours today playing with my Dual Powered Standard > > Willem ROM burner. > > > > It seems reasonably straightforward. I've managed to read the contents > > of a few 27C256 EPROMS successfully. However, I couldn't read the > > contents of the BASIC-PAC 2k masked ROMS? I'm sure I have all the > > jumpers and switches right for a 2716, which I understand is an > > equivalant EPROM chip . > > A 2716 is an equivalent for 2K x 8 bit mask ROMs in the sense that the > capacity is the same, and the data and address lines are on the same > pins. However the the chip selects need not be. One of the > characteristics that can be "programmed" in the mask is the polarity of > the chip select pins. Also an EPROM has pins for programming voltages > as well as chip selects. > > > I did read on a website somewhere that some masked ROMS could not be > > read by some EPROM programmers. Do you think that's the case here? > > No, you just need to deal with the chip select requirements. In this > case, the pins that might differ are pins 19, 20, and 21. > > Pin 19 is A10 on most ROMs and EPROMs, but 12V on 3-rail 2716s. You're > unlikely to come across those, so it's unlikely to be of concern. > > On mask ROMs, pin 20 is a chip select that can be active-high or > active-low; on 3-rail 2716 EPROMs it's the A10 address line, and on > single-rail 2716s, which are by far the most common, it's an active-low > chip select. The Exidy mask ROMs have it as an active-low so it's the > same as a common 2716. > > Pin 21 is most likely to be the problem. On a 3-rail 2716 it's -5V. > More importantly, on mask ROMs it's a chip select that can be defined > active-low, active-high, or "don't care", while on single-rail 2716s > it's a programming voltage, and is set to +5V for reading. > > That's what your programmer is probably doing, but the mask ROMs you > want to read use that pin as an active-low chip select. The solution is > to carefully bend pin 21 out sideways a little, just enough that it > doesn't go into the programmer socket. Then connect it to pin 12 (0V) > with a short test clip. Set up like that, you should be able to read > the ROM. ---snip--- Hi I prefer making an adapter. I use two stacked machine pin sockets and rewire things to match up with the selects. I also always remove the programming voltage. No sense blowing up a ROM because I accidentally asked the programmer to write to it. Some programmers leave the programming voltage on while reading as it is allowed on that EPROM, so be careful. Always isolate the programmng voltage pin. Sometimes, jumpering isn't enough to get the EPROM to work. The use needs another select that is high or low on the original ROM that isn't there on the EPROM. For these I've been know to take one of those tiny surface mount ICs to provide the logic needed and hot glue it in the center of another machine pin socket. One last thing. Make up a tag for the adpater you made to get the programmer to read the ROM. I like to use a simple diagram showing the levels of the select pins. Otherwise you end up with a pile of duplicate adapters. Also, I don't recommend bending a ROM pin enough to keep it out of a programmers socket. These are usually ZIF type sockets and you really have to bend it more than you'd want. If it is a ZIF socket, a small folded piece of paper is usually enough to isolate the pin without bending it. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 19 08:36:28 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 06:36:28 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> References: , , <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > > On 6/18/11 10:25 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >>> ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually > >> > >> I use PALASM and I edit its input files with emacs. So there! ;) > >> > >> > >> be a man, and edit the Fusemaps by hand ! ;) > > ...with an X-Acto knife after de-capping the chip! > Hi I wanted to create a 16R4 for my recreated Apple IIe Swift card. I wrote a simple program to enter fuses from a hand made map. It also blew unused fuse lines and crossed to fuses on those lines to reduce power in the final chip. I did it from the map. It wasn't that hard. I don't know why it is suppose to be difficult. It is just logic circuits. Dwight From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 10:17:34 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:17:34 -0700 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFE130E.3080301@bitsavers.org> On 6/19/11 4:06 AM, terry stewart wrote: > As usual I've written something on the experiences of getting software for the Sorcerer. It might be helpful to others and at the very least it means I won't forget what I did! > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-18-sorcerer-software-stockup.htm > > Terry > > I'm forwarding this on to the MESS team. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 19 10:19:18 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:19:18 -0700 Subject: PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE (was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book...) In-Reply-To: References: , , <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org> If you actually post something someone should read! On 6/19/11 6:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > I wanted to create a 16R4 for my recreated Apple IIe Swift > card. I wrote a simple program to enter fuses from a > hand made map. It also blew unused fuse lines and crossed > to fuses on those lines to reduce power in the final chip. > I did it from the map. It wasn't that hard. I don't know > why it is suppose to be difficult. It is just logic circuits. > Dwight > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 19 12:17:32 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:17:32 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> On 6/19/11 12:39 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: >>> ABEL vs CUPL vs PALASM vs. editing Fusemaps manually >>>>> >>>> >>>> I use PALASM and I edit its input files with emacs. So there! ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> be a man, and edit the Fusemaps by hand ! ;) >>>> >>> >> ...with an X-Acto knife after de-capping the chip! > > haha > Our first programmer at work would have a view of the fusemap on the CRT for > each given PAL and you had to fill in the worksheet for that fusemap and use > that as your guide as you scroll the cursor thru the screen to mark the > appropriate fuse for your design to program. I still can't recall who made > that programmer. That actually sounds pretty neat! Someone needs to write a fusemap visualizer for JEDEC PAL fusemap files. Although one can usually visualize it pretty well just by looking at the file. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 19 12:34:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 10:34:31 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> References: , , <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2011 at 13:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Our first programmer at work would have a view of the fusemap on the > > CRT for each given PAL and you had to fill in the worksheet for that > > fusemap and use that as your guide as you scroll the cursor thru the > > screen to mark the appropriate fuse for your design to program. I > > still can't recall who made that programmer. > > That actually sounds pretty neat! Someone needs to write a fusemap > > visualizer for JEDEC PAL fusemap files. Although one can usually > visualize it pretty well just by looking at the file. ;) PAL? Whatever happened to burning your truth tables into bipolar PROM? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 19 13:07:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 14:07:14 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DFE3AD2.6050305@neurotica.com> On 6/19/11 1:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Our first programmer at work would have a view of the fusemap on the >>> CRT for each given PAL and you had to fill in the worksheet for that >>> fusemap and use that as your guide as you scroll the cursor thru the >>> screen to mark the appropriate fuse for your design to program. I >>> still can't recall who made that programmer. >> >> That actually sounds pretty neat! Someone needs to write a fusemap >> >> visualizer for JEDEC PAL fusemap files. Although one can usually >> visualize it pretty well just by looking at the file. ;) > > PAL? Whatever happened to burning your truth tables into bipolar > PROM? You had PROMs? When I was young, all we had were diode arrays!! ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 19 13:41:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 11:41:22 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFE3AD2.6050305@neurotica.com> References: , <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFE3AD2.6050305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4DFDE062.30037.70B843@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2011 at 14:07, Dave McGuire wrote: > You had PROMs? When I was young, all we had were diode arrays!! ;) When I was young, (semiconductor) diodes came in white ceramic packages with metal endcaps and were usually germanium. No, the PROM was for a production design, ca. 1983. It was expensive (particularly if you goofed), but it eliminated quite a few packages. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 19 13:54:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 14:54:49 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFDE062.30037.70B843@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com>, <4DFE3AD2.6050305@neurotica.com> <4DFDE062.30037.70B843@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4DFE45F9.6060403@neurotica.com> On 6/19/11 2:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> You had PROMs? When I was young, all we had were diode arrays!! ;) > > When I was young, (semiconductor) diodes came in white ceramic > packages with metal endcaps and were usually germanium. No, the PROM > was for a production design, ca. 1983. It was expensive > (particularly if you goofed), but it eliminated quite a few > packages. The earliest diodes I remember were packaged in glass. Not the standard glass packages that we see 1N34s and similar diodes packaged in, but about 50% longer and curved, so they bulge a bit in the middle. I have no idea of what type they were, but they were germanium. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 14:16:53 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:16:53 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 1:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Jun 2011 at 13:17, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > Our first programmer at work would have a view of the fusemap on the > > > CRT for each given PAL and you had to fill in the worksheet for that > > > fusemap and use that as your guide as you scroll the cursor thru the > > > screen to mark the appropriate fuse for your design to program. I > > > still can't recall who made that programmer. > > > > That actually sounds pretty neat! Someone needs to write a fusemap > > > > visualizer for JEDEC PAL fusemap files. Although one can usually > > visualize it pretty well just by looking at the file. ;) > > PAL? Whatever happened to burning your truth tables into bipolar > PROM? > > PROM's are too slooow ;) =Dan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 19 14:47:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 12:47:56 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: , <4DFDD0B7.31147.3382E3@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFDEFFC.21017.ADA80E@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jun 2011 at 15:16, Dan Roganti wrote: > PROM's are too slooow ;) For the time period concerned, not too awful, depending on the application. 40-50 nsec for a 82S123. --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 14:54:01 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 15:54:01 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> References: <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com> <4DFE2F2C.1000302@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 19, 2011 at 1:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/19/11 12:39 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> >> haha >> Our first programmer at work would have a view of the fusemap on the CRT >> for >> each given PAL and you had to fill in the worksheet for that fusemap and >> use >> that as your guide as you scroll the cursor thru the screen to mark the >> appropriate fuse for your design to program. I still can't recall who made >> that programmer. >> > > That actually sounds pretty neat! Someone needs to write a fusemap > visualizer for JEDEC PAL fusemap files. Although one can usually visualize > it pretty well just by looking at the file. ;) > > that programmer was pre-PALASM days. Your hardcopy worksheet was your only reference - nobody had the urge to retype the fusemap into a text file. We were all relieved the day PALASM was released in the early 80s. =Dan . From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 19 15:02:56 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 21:02:56 +0100 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFE55F0.9070609@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/06/2011 12:06, terry stewart wrote: > As usual I've written something on the experiences of getting software > for the Sorcerer. It might be helpful to others and at the very least it > means I won't forget what I did! > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-18-sorcerer-software-stockup.htm After downloading the software you found, then downloading MESS, and then spending a frustrating couple of hours trying to get it to actually run (the docs are truly awful and it doesn't help that there are files either missing or in the wrong place) I found the same problem you did with the speed. I thought I'd found the magic setting to save the WAV file at 44100 instead of 4800, but that didn't help. And yet if I compare it to an MP3 that does work, the pitch seems almost the same, while slowing it down 8% to make it load (yes, that worked for me too) the pitch is way low compared to my MP3, and so says my oscilloscope too. The waveform is not great either. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 12:38:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 18:38:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110618210836.GA21014@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jun 18, 11 05:08:36 pm Message-ID: > > But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? > > > Why to feed the hungry hamsters of course! I don;t think cream is very good for them... > > > > > [And the more normal (?) connotations of those objects are not suitable > > for a family mailing list like this one :-)] > > You, have a dirty mind! 'When correctly viewed Everything is lewd' (Tom Lehrer, of course). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 12:45:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 18:45:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Jun 19, 11 10:00:07 am Message-ID: > > It seems reasonably straightforward. I've managed to read the contents of a > few 27C256 EPROMS successfully. However, I couldn't read the contents of > the BASIC-PAC 2k masked ROMS? I'm sure I have all the jumpers and switches > right for a 2716, which I understand is an equivalant EPROM chip . All I I'm not sure it is an exact equivalent. The Sorceror ROM Pac seems ot ahve jumper links associated with each ROM chip (these are shown on the schematic with no explanation!). From what I rememebr, one set of connections for those links will let you use 2716s, but there are, of ocurse, orther arangements of links for chips with slightly differnet pinouts. In generaly, the +5V, grpound, data pins and the lower order address lines are onm the same plins for EPROMs, masked ROMs, etc. But things lik chip selects, and the higher address lines may move around a bit. What I would do is look at the ROM Pac PCB that you took thise ROMs from, and work out just what signal is on each pin of the ROM. You may want to trace the conenctions with an ohmmeter. Of coruse the schematic is very useful too here. You then have a pinout of the mask ROMs. You cna compare tht against the known pinout of a 2716 to see whatis different. if you replace the defective ROM with a 2716, you may have to reconfigure the links to get the signas on the right pins. Foprtuantely, there are separate links for each ROM chip, so you can have a mixture of types on the board. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 13:21:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:21:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jun 19, 11 01:19:38 am Message-ID: [Reasons why I use an RPN calculator snipped] > I'm intrigued. I don't understand, but that's OK. What don;'t you understand ? RPN, or why I prefer to use it? For the former, I assume you are happy with the ideal of a stack. You read an RPN expression left to right. When you come to a number, push it onto the stack. One-argument functions (SIN, SQRT, etc) take the number of the top of stack, perforem the operation on it, and push the result (so the sizxe of the stack is unchanged). Two-argument fucntions take 2 numbers off the stack, combine them, and push the result (so the stack is reduced in size by oen item). Some RPN-based languages and machines allow you to push other things onto th stack (strings, expressions, complex numbers, arrays, etc) and have functions that take more than 2 arguments and, indeed return more htan one reuslt. But the rules are the same. Data is pushed onto the stack, functions thak the arguemtns they need (and remove them from the stack) and push the reuslt. And that's really all there is to RPN. As to why I like it, I prefer tools (in the genral sense) that willalways do what I expect. I want to think about the problem I am trying to solve, not have to worry about what the calcualtor (or whatever) is going to do. RPN has 2 main advntages here. The first is that the above rules are all you need. There are no rules of heirarchy. no brackets, nothing like that. FUcntions are evaluated as you come to them rreading the expresion. I don't ahve to think about what the machine is goign to do. The second is that it's very easy to 'chain' calculations together, partuclarly on a machine with an arbitrarily large stack (such as HP's RPL calcualtors). For example I can do things like : 4700 2200 + 10000 + (That's the total resistanec of a 4.7k, 2.2k and 10k resiutor in series) 3300 3900 + (that's a 3.3k and a 3.9k in series), not that the previous result is not cleared, it's sitting in the sxcond stack level INV SWAP INV + INV (where INV is the reciprocal function, and SWAP exchanges the top 2 stack levels) to work out what the resistance of those 2 resistor chains in parallel is. It's possible to do that sort of thing on some infix calculators, but uou normally have to plan it out rather more, store results in a memory register by hand, etc. RPN does that sort of thing automatcially. RPN is, I suppose rather differnt to many modern computer products. The latter seem to be designed to make simple problems trivial, but unfortunately, they make complex problems very difficult or impossible. RPN (and in gnerally the tools I prefer) makes simple problems pehaps a little more dififcult (but is it really harder to type 2 2 + rahter than 2 + 2?) but make dififuclt problems a lot easier. Since generally I sue calcualtors and computers for difficult problems that I can't solve in my head, I prefer such tools. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 13:28:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:28:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <6567bf886d2961c1cebdda6615d59db7@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 18, 11 07:51:14 pm Message-ID: > >> Manifest in the 70's as HP vs TI. > > > > Over here, TI calcualtros were not particularly common. The common > > brand > > was (and is, I guess) Casio. > > > Interesting, do you know if TI didn't make much market effort over > there, or their calcs just weren't well-received in the market? I don't, I'm afraid. TI calculators doexist over here, but if you just went ot buy 'a caluclator' you'd either get some no-nam hose brand 4-banger or a Casio most likely. I would estimate that Sharp calculators were actually more common than TI over here. > > > > Of course those of us who prefer RPN bought HPs. > > I never used them much, but the hidden state in infix calculators > didn't inspire confidence during a calculation. That/s one reaosn I use RPN :-) > > There is state in an RPN calculator too, of course - the stack - but it > is reviewable at any time, you can check all the intermediate results > for saneness as you go. Many more recent HPs has as large a stack as you want (limited by memory only) and display the top 4 or 5 stack levels on a multi-line LCD. Yes there can be 'hidden state' (Stakc levels beyond those) but (a) generally it's the tope few levels you are interested in and (b) you can scroll up and down the stack wit hthe arrow kleys anyway. > > I still love my little HP-21. I asusme that's the original Woodstock one (from 1975 or thereabouts). I ahve one, I've repaired many more... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 13:03:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:03:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 18, 11 03:38:57 pm Message-ID: > I have early calculators where flip-flops are built from a single > physical OR gate. Now that's one I've not seen... > The output feeds back to one input so the gate will latch-up on itself. > > The other inputs to the OR gate are SET inputs, sending one true will > latch true. > > The gate is OC, so RESET inputs are created with simply diodes or > direct connections wire-ANDed to the output/loopback-input. Sending > such an input false will force the output false and it will latch in > that state. So it really has an AND gate too, albeint a wired AND of open-collector signals. Makes sense. I have an instrument which has flip-foops made from cross-coupled open-collector inverters. The operation si obvious, it's stable in either state nd you filp states by pulling one or other of the outputs, What makes it slightly odd is that these flip-flops are linked to backplane signals wwhich are effectively bidirections. For example, there is a signle signals for 'Print Command/Complete'. Some boards inthe backplane will briefly pull that signal low, it will be latched by such a flip-flop on the pritner itnerface board, and thus the backplane signal will remain low until the pritner interface board clears the flip-flop (which it dos when the pritner has accepted the character). I've not seen that trick done anywhere else. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 14:20:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:20:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming In-Reply-To: <4DFDC86D.10507@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 19, 11 10:59:09 am Message-ID: > The one I gave the link to, was for a similar purpose -- checking the > speed of turntables for vinyl records -- though it could be used for I guesed as much. > anything you can put a 50/60Hz strobe pattern on. It's an elegant 2-IC > design (a CD4060 and a CD4013) that runs off a PP3 and fits in a small > standard box. What does it use as the frequency reference? Does it use a crystal (and if so, how does it handle the frequency change). What is the mark-space ratio of the otuput (I found a narrow flash with a logner dark perid gave a much clearier indication than a 1:1 ratio). My circuit used, IIRC, a 4 pin oscillator module, a 'HCT 393 to divide it down, a 'NCT 163 to ahdnle the /5 or /6 function (basically, it's parallel-loadad with the appropraite value (switch-selected), it then counts up until RCO is asserted whereupon it reloads), and a further HCT163 to give a 1:15 mark-space ratio. The 74xxx are powered from a 7085 on the same bit of stripbpard. I used a 2N3904 to drive the white LEDs and IIRC an other one as an inverter (probably fro the laod input of the first '163) to avoifd hainv another IC package. The whole thing fits in a small handheld case and runs off a 12V supply. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 19 13:04:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 19:04:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110618164503.O879@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 18, 11 04:58:55 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, 18 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > But I am wondering what on earth the whipped cream is for here? > > To feed to the hamsters? > To cover the lens of the security camera? I would think a bit omore of the duct tape would be better than whipped cream for that. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Sun Jun 19 15:39:46 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:39:46 -0700 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 8:21 PM At 11:02 PM -0400 6/17/11, Richard Cini wrote: >> So here's the punch line. Does anyone know if someone ever >> recreated an 8080 emulator to run on the PDP-10 (under SIMH, since >> I don't have a PDP-10)? > Good question, I seem to remember something about a CPU emulator, but > can't remember the details. Rich Alderson would be a good person > around here to talk to about it. DISCLAIMER: I work for Paul Allen. Living Computer Museum is heavily based around his collection of vintage mainframes and minicomputers. Several years prior to the creation of the MITS Altair, Paul Allen and Bill Gates started a company called Traf-O-Data, whose product was to be an 8008 (NB: Eight Zero Zero Eight) computer that processed the data gathered by those counter boxes with pneumatic hoses strung across streets. They hired an engineer to create the hardware, but in the mean time needed to program the software. Paul created a simulator for the 8008 which worked as follows: 1. He created a series of Macro-10 macros to interpret 8008 mnemonics into PDP-10 words, with each word containing a UUO in the left half and an 8-bit 8008 byte in the right half. 2. He wrote a UUO handler to interpret the result on the PDP-10, for debugging, along with adding appropriate code to DDT to interpret words in this format as 8008 instructions. (The latter unfortunately has been lost. He would really really like to find it again.) 3. He wrote a routine to punch the 8-bit data to a paper tape punch on the PDP-10 (or on a TTY), for loading into the Traf-O-Data computer. He wanted Bill Gates to work with him on a BASIC for the 8008, but Bill convinced him that the processor was too limited (14 bits of address, 7 levels of a hardware stack, etc.). When the 8080 came along, he revisited the BASIC question, but Bill wanted to wait for someone to build a computer using the chip. When the Altair 8800 came along, Bill agreed to the project. Once they had a commitment from MITS to look at their BASIC, Paul updated his 8008 simulator to handle the 8080 and they began writing the first version of Altair BASIC (along with Monte Davidoff, whom the brought in to write the math library because he had done that in high school for TSS/8). A lot more detail is available in Paul's book _Idea Man_ (http://www.amazon.com/Idea-Man-Memoir-Cofounder-Microsoft/dp/1591843820/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1308515658&sr=1-1). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 19 16:06:41 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:06:41 +1200 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogrammingissue? References: <4DFE55F0.9070609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: I glad you could verify what I found Pete. I also changed the sound sampling setting from the default of 4800 to 44100 but found it makes no difference at all to the output. Hopefully the effort will help improve MESS. Sometimes things like this can remain hidden in software until people start to use the emulator for the kind of things I attempted here. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 8:02 AM Subject: Re: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogrammingissue? > On 19/06/2011 12:06, terry stewart wrote: >> As usual I've written something on the experiences of getting software >> for the Sorcerer. It might be helpful to others and at the very least it >> means I won't forget what I did! >> >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-18-sorcerer-software-stockup.htm > > After downloading the software you found, then downloading MESS, and then > spending a frustrating couple of hours trying to get it to actually run > (the docs are truly awful and it doesn't help that there are files either > missing or in the wrong place) I found the same problem you did with the > speed. I thought I'd found the magic setting to save the WAV file at > 44100 instead of 4800, but that didn't help. And yet if I compare it to > an MP3 that does work, the pitch seems almost the same, while slowing it > down 8% to make it load (yes, that worked for me too) the pitch is way low > compared to my MP3, and so says my oscilloscope too. The waveform is not > great either. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 19 17:06:39 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 23:06:39 +0100 Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFE72EF.8070209@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/06/2011 20:20, Tony Duell wrote: > What does it use as the frequency reference? Does it use a crystal (and > if so, how does it handle the frequency change). What is the mark-space > ratio of the otuput (I found a narrow flash with a logner dark perid gave > a much clearier indication than a 1:1 ratio). It uses a common crystal. You pick either a 3.2768MHz crystal for 50Hz or a 3.93216MHz for 60Hz; it's assumed that you need one or the other but not both (and generally that's true -- for checking motor speeds, you use the appropriate strobe pattern). It has an 8:1 duty cycle. As you say, you want a short flash. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From blkline at attglobal.net Sun Jun 19 17:58:53 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 18:58:53 -0400 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/19/2011 02:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > but is it really harder to type 2 2 + rahter than > 2 + 2? Actually, that would be 2 + 2 = I prefer RPN myself. RPN is never having to press = Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFN/n8tCFu3bIiwtTARAo/VAKCCKsyy2M6z4pmvystdaqrGs3qmTwCgn55o GeVD8TrjfzF1nvm7xZyZRew= =6h0k -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jun 19 19:29:57 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 20:29:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Google Lisa List In-Reply-To: References: , <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz>, , , Message-ID: On Sat, 14 May 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Fri, 13 May 2011, dwight elvey wrote: >> Someone has been forging googles group members and spamming >> various groups. I had such a spam on the canon cat group. >> It was from one of the members that has otherwise been >> well behaved. >> As a moderator, I had the option to mark it as spam and >> that would ban the member. I almost did this before I recognized >> the name of the sender. >> This same thing may have happened to you. The moderator >> saw a spam and simply pressed the spam button without >> checking the members status, otherwise. >> I chose to just delete the email. > > That's what I originally thought, but I sent two or three "..why?" messages > to the posting address (where presumably the moderator would see them whether > or not I was a member) and the same number to the personal gmail address of > the purported list owner. > > No response. Final disposition on my summary ejection from the Lisa list: At the advice of several folks I tried contacting the owner and admin both through the signup page on Low End Mac. Also tried making a request for reinstatement through the e-mail address given there. Might was well have been sending the messages into the bitbucket for all the response I've received. That's an even dozen messages I've sent to Dan and/or the list admin, who will not extend the common courtesy of an explanation. Go figure. -- From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 19 19:56:12 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 12:56:12 +1200 Subject: Google Lisa List References: , <16C6E8A68F1F48D5B4AF147DDB8C7665@massey.ac.nz>, , , Message-ID: Steve, This is all rather disturbing. I wonder if your email address has been flagged as SPAM and the moderator is not even getting it? If you like I could try to make contact with the list administrator (what's his address). I've only been a member for the list a short time, but my experience with other members has been very positive. There was nothing objectionable in any posts I saw from you, I'm now very curious as to why this has happened. These machine-specific lists are an important support network for all of us and if something is disfunctional it's worth finding out what it is? Another possibility is the moderator is not able to respond due to some event in their lives (accident, death, etc.)? I run one of these google lists (on EACA machines) and I know if I suddenly dropped dead, any emails to me would go into a black hole until my yearly domain subscription runs out. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 12:29 PM Subject: RE: Google Lisa List > On Sat, 14 May 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> On Fri, 13 May 2011, dwight elvey wrote: > >>> Someone has been forging googles group members and spamming >>> various groups. I had such a spam on the canon cat group. >>> It was from one of the members that has otherwise been >>> well behaved. >>> As a moderator, I had the option to mark it as spam and >>> that would ban the member. I almost did this before I recognized >>> the name of the sender. >>> This same thing may have happened to you. The moderator >>> saw a spam and simply pressed the spam button without >>> checking the members status, otherwise. >>> I chose to just delete the email. >> >> That's what I originally thought, but I sent two or three "..why?" >> messages to the posting address (where presumably the moderator would see >> them whether or not I was a member) and the same number to the personal >> gmail address of the purported list owner. >> >> No response. > > Final disposition on my summary ejection from the Lisa list: > > At the advice of several folks I tried contacting the owner and admin both > through the signup page on Low End Mac. Also tried making a request for > reinstatement through the e-mail address given there. Might was well have > been sending the messages into the bitbucket for all the response I've > received. > > That's an even dozen messages I've sent to Dan and/or the list admin, who > will not extend the common courtesy of an explanation. Go figure. > > > > -- > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 19 20:21:33 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:21:33 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz><213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack><4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com><660496D935DF40CAA8718D05CC1120C9@vshack>, <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack>, <4DFDEAC1.9020409@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Thanks for the info, Dwight, Pete and others. That's handy. I'll digest it while these EPROMS are in the post to me, and let the list know of any progress. Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:21 AM Subject: RE: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:25:37 +0100 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > > On 18/06/2011 23:00, Terry Stewart wrote: > > > Well, I've spent a few hours today playing with my Dual Powered Standard > > Willem ROM burner. > > > > It seems reasonably straightforward. I've managed to read the contents > > of a few 27C256 EPROMS successfully. However, I couldn't read the > > contents of the BASIC-PAC 2k masked ROMS? I'm sure I have all the > > jumpers and switches right for a 2716, which I understand is an > > equivalant EPROM chip . > > A 2716 is an equivalent for 2K x 8 bit mask ROMs in the sense that the > capacity is the same, and the data and address lines are on the same > pins. However the the chip selects need not be. One of the > characteristics that can be "programmed" in the mask is the polarity of > the chip select pins. Also an EPROM has pins for programming voltages > as well as chip selects. > > > I did read on a website somewhere that some masked ROMS could not be > > read by some EPROM programmers. Do you think that's the case here? > > No, you just need to deal with the chip select requirements. In this > case, the pins that might differ are pins 19, 20, and 21. > > Pin 19 is A10 on most ROMs and EPROMs, but 12V on 3-rail 2716s. You're > unlikely to come across those, so it's unlikely to be of concern. > > On mask ROMs, pin 20 is a chip select that can be active-high or > active-low; on 3-rail 2716 EPROMs it's the A10 address line, and on > single-rail 2716s, which are by far the most common, it's an active-low > chip select. The Exidy mask ROMs have it as an active-low so it's the > same as a common 2716. > > Pin 21 is most likely to be the problem. On a 3-rail 2716 it's -5V. > More importantly, on mask ROMs it's a chip select that can be defined > active-low, active-high, or "don't care", while on single-rail 2716s > it's a programming voltage, and is set to +5V for reading. > > That's what your programmer is probably doing, but the mask ROMs you > want to read use that pin as an active-low chip select. The solution is > to carefully bend pin 21 out sideways a little, just enough that it > doesn't go into the programmer socket. Then connect it to pin 12 (0V) > with a short test clip. Set up like that, you should be able to read > the ROM. ---snip--- Hi I prefer making an adapter. I use two stacked machine pin sockets and rewire things to match up with the selects. I also always remove the programming voltage. No sense blowing up a ROM because I accidentally asked the programmer to write to it. Some programmers leave the programming voltage on while reading as it is allowed on that EPROM, so be careful. Always isolate the programmng voltage pin. Sometimes, jumpering isn't enough to get the EPROM to work. The use needs another select that is high or low on the original ROM that isn't there on the EPROM. For these I've been know to take one of those tiny surface mount ICs to provide the logic needed and hot glue it in the center of another machine pin socket. One last thing. Make up a tag for the adpater you made to get the programmer to read the ROM. I like to use a simple diagram showing the levels of the select pins. Otherwise you end up with a pile of duplicate adapters. Also, I don't recommend bending a ROM pin enough to keep it out of a programmers socket. These are usually ZIF type sockets and you really have to bend it more than you'd want. If it is a ZIF socket, a small folded piece of paper is usually enough to isolate the pin without bending it. Dwight From doug at doughq.com Sun Jun 19 18:08:36 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 09:08:36 +1000 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Because you were a pimply faced 13 year old, and you couldn't walk into an office building and just use a phone.... And you wanted to not have calls end up on your parents phone... Yep - That was it.! On Sat, Jun 18, 2011 at 7:11 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I have *many* fond memories associated with sitting on the floor of a > lift > > (elevator), with the phone, my 300 baud acoustic coupler, and my Model > > 100....... And - just playing with systems. > > I am wondering why you used a phone in a lift for this. > > -tony > -- Doug Jackson VK1ZDJ http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities From va7nt at telus.net Sun Jun 19 18:31:29 2011 From: va7nt at telus.net (Paul Erickson) Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 16:31:29 -0700 Subject: Poqet PC Message-ID: <4DFE86D1.1090602@telus.net> I would appreciate the info you have on the serial adapter for the Poqet. cheers, Paul From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Jun 20 03:36:21 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:36:21 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: <1E76D58E75554E06B8E1D9A6D8DB7BA2@massey.ac.nz><12D9C6A7FBAC40A39ACB8F075C988F71@massey.ac.nz><213BEE6954E649A4B2D7F0DEFEC66628@vshack><4DFBADC4.3040500@tx.rr.com><660496D935DF40CAA8718D05CC1120C9@vshack>, <9D3A5B9FC22047CCA11EFC44AAED103D@vshack>, <4DFDEAC1.9020409@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <581E31F6B955405D9C54CD61D573D290@vshack> Tonight I made up an "adapter" from a socket as per Dwight's recommendation, wiring it as Pete suggested. I tested the faulty ROM chip and a good one. Perfect! The faulty IC was all zeros and the good one contained code, just as I had seen in the Sorcerer itself. Diagnosis verified. Now to just wait for the EPROMs to arrive! Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > Thanks for the info, Dwight, Pete and others. That's handy. I'll digest > it while these EPROMS are in the post to me, and let the list know of any > progress. > > Terry (Tez) > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dwight elvey" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 1:21 AM > Subject: RE: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements > > >> Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 13:25:37 +0100 >> From: pete at dunnington.plus.com >> To: >> Subject: Re: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements >> >> On 18/06/2011 23:00, Terry Stewart wrote: >> >> > Well, I've spent a few hours today playing with my Dual Powered >> > Standard >> > Willem ROM burner. >> > >> > It seems reasonably straightforward. I've managed to read the contents >> > of a few 27C256 EPROMS successfully. However, I couldn't read the >> > contents of the BASIC-PAC 2k masked ROMS? I'm sure I have all the >> > jumpers and switches right for a 2716, which I understand is an >> > equivalant EPROM chip . >> >> A 2716 is an equivalent for 2K x 8 bit mask ROMs in the sense that the >> capacity is the same, and the data and address lines are on the same >> pins. However the the chip selects need not be. One of the >> characteristics that can be "programmed" in the mask is the polarity of >> the chip select pins. Also an EPROM has pins for programming voltages >> as well as chip selects. >> >> > I did read on a website somewhere that some masked ROMS could not be >> > read by some EPROM programmers. Do you think that's the case here? >> >> No, you just need to deal with the chip select requirements. In this >> case, the pins that might differ are pins 19, 20, and 21. >> >> Pin 19 is A10 on most ROMs and EPROMs, but 12V on 3-rail 2716s. You're >> unlikely to come across those, so it's unlikely to be of concern. >> >> On mask ROMs, pin 20 is a chip select that can be active-high or >> active-low; on 3-rail 2716 EPROMs it's the A10 address line, and on >> single-rail 2716s, which are by far the most common, it's an active-low >> chip select. The Exidy mask ROMs have it as an active-low so it's the >> same as a common 2716. >> >> Pin 21 is most likely to be the problem. On a 3-rail 2716 it's -5V. >> More importantly, on mask ROMs it's a chip select that can be defined >> active-low, active-high, or "don't care", while on single-rail 2716s >> it's a programming voltage, and is set to +5V for reading. >> >> That's what your programmer is probably doing, but the mask ROMs you >> want to read use that pin as an active-low chip select. The solution is >> to carefully bend pin 21 out sideways a little, just enough that it >> doesn't go into the programmer socket. Then connect it to pin 12 (0V) >> with a short test clip. Set up like that, you should be able to read >> the ROM. > ---snip--- > > Hi > I prefer making an adapter. I use two stacked machine pin sockets > and rewire things to match up with the selects. I also always remove > the programming voltage. No sense blowing up a ROM because > I accidentally asked the programmer to write to it. Some programmers > leave the programming voltage on while reading as it is allowed > on that EPROM, so be careful. Always isolate the programmng > voltage pin. > Sometimes, jumpering isn't enough to get the EPROM to work. > The use needs another select that is high or low on the original > ROM that isn't there on the EPROM. For these I've been know > to take one of those tiny surface mount ICs to provide the logic > needed and hot glue it in the center of another machine pin socket. > One last thing. Make up a tag for the adpater you made to get > the programmer to read the ROM. I like to use a simple diagram > showing the levels of the select pins. Otherwise you end up with > a pile of duplicate adapters. > Also, I don't recommend bending a ROM pin enough to keep > it out of a programmers socket. These are usually ZIF type > sockets and you really have to bend it more than you'd want. > If it is a ZIF socket, a small folded piece of paper is usually > enough to isolate the pin without bending it. > Dwight > > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1382 / Virus Database: 1513/3712 - Release Date: 06/18/11 > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 08:54:14 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 06:54:14 -0700 Subject: Creating a 16R4 PAL to use on a recreated SwifCard for an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org> References: , , , , <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com>, , <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 19 Jun 2011 08:19:18 -0700 > From: aek at bitsavers.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: PLEASE CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE (was Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book...) > > If you actually post something someone should read! > > On 6/19/11 6:36 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I wanted to create a 16R4 for my recreated Apple IIe Swift > > card. I wrote a simple program to enter fuses from a > > hand made map. It also blew unused fuse lines and crossed > > to fuses on those lines to reduce power in the final chip. > > I did it from the map. It wasn't that hard. I don't know > > why it is suppose to be difficult. It is just logic circuits. > > Dwight Hi I will have to admit, it took me a few iterations to get it right. I've no excuse for that. Once I knew what I was doing wrong, it all made perfect sense. I paced a copy of the map in front of me and marked dots on the connections I wanted. I wrote the numbers off the sheet into my program at the end. It is generally missing comments but I didn't write it for instructive purposes. Bob R. has a Pal programmer and blew the PALs for me. Since the code is relatively short, here it is: \ Compiles a 16R4 design DKE \ SWYFT vers 3 PAL hope this one works decimal create FuseLines 2048 allot : Index ( FuseLine Increment - Index ) swap ( 32 * ) FuseLines + + FuseLines 2047 + min FuseLines max ; : InitFuse FuseLines 2048 erase ; InitFuse : Connect ( FuseLine Increment - ) \ Used to place fuses to keep Index -1 swap c! ; : C Connect ; create ones 64 allot ones 64 erase : one ( row - ) -1 swap 32 / ones + c! ; : Clean ( - ) \ Unspecified fuse rows must be 0 so cross connect \ something on each unused row. 64 0 do i ones + c@ 0= if i 32 * 0 32 0 do over i + FuseLines + c@ + loop 0= if \ must be unused so need to blow something dup dup 16 / 31 and 2dup Connect 1+ Connect then drop then loop ; handle Swyft.PAL create Return $0D c, $0A c, : Transform ( - ) 2048 0 do i FuseLines + dup c@ if ascii 0 else ascii 1 then swap c! loop ; 0 value ChkSum : CalSum 0 =: ChkSum 256 0 do 0 8 0 do 2/ i j 8 * + FuseLines + c@ ascii 1 = if $80 + then loop \ +!> ChkSum ChkSum + =: ChkSum loop ; create STX 2 c, create ETX 3 c, create Star ascii * c, create LetC ascii C c, 0 value AsciiSum : WR ( A C - ) 2dup Swyft.PAL hwrite drop 0 do dup i + c@ +!> AsciiSum loop drop ; : WritePal ( - ) 0 =: AsciiSum Clean Transform CalSum Swyft.PAL !HCB Swyft.PAL hcreate drop read-write Swyft.PAL hopen drop STX 1 WR " SwyftCard PAL for Apple IIe" WR Return 2 WR " recreate by Dwight Elvey " WR Return 2 WR " Compile by my Forth program " WR Star 1 WR Return 2 WR " L0000" WR 64 0 do Return 2 WR i 32 * FuseLines + 32 WR loop Star 1 WR Return 2 WR LetC 1 WR HEX ChkSum 0 <# # # # # #> WR Star 1 WR ETX 1 WR Return 2 WR AsciiSum 0 <# # # # # #> WR Return 2 WR Swyft.PAL hclose drop ; \ SwyftCard PAL 0 one 192 11 c 192 25 c 224 24 c 224 29 c 256 one 448 16 c 448 20 c 448 23 c 448 25 c 448 28 c 480 16 c 480 20 c 480 23 c 480 24 c 672 0 c 672 11 c 704 1 c 704 9 c 736 5 c 1440 0 c 1440 23 c 1472 1 c 1472 13 c 1504 5 c 1536 7 c 1568 one 1792 5 c 1824 one WritePal SWYFT3.PAL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 09:50:56 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 07:50:56 -0700 Subject: 1820-0092 1 of 10 nixie driver. In-Reply-To: References: , , , , ,,, , , <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com>, , , , <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: Hi I needed to replace the nixie driver on one of my HP counters. These are a real pain. They are hard to find and if I want one, I have to buy 10 at $10+ each. These are frustrating because there is a TTL part that does exactly the same thing. It blanks the display for values above 9 and takes a TTL level input. The part is the 74141. The only problem is that the logic levels are inverted and wired differently. I piggy-backed stacked a 7404, 74141 and a machine socket with some wire and hot glue. The 74141s are also hard to find but many can be found on ebay at a resonable price. I'm quite pleased with the result because I'd moved the failed digit to the last location that rarely gets used. It would only display even numbers for odd. Now they all work :) Dwight From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jun 20 13:45:45 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:45:45 -0700 Subject: 1820-0092 1 of 10 nixie driver. In-Reply-To: References: , , , , , , , , , <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com>, , , , <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: <72cfc5ad73538815f12705702f7218c5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 20, at 7:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I needed to replace the nixie driver on one of my > HP counters. These are a real pain. They are hard to find > and if I want one, I have to buy 10 at $10+ each. > These are frustrating because there is a TTL part that > does exactly the same thing. > It blanks the display for values above 9 and takes a > TTL level input. > The part is the 74141. The only problem is that the > logic levels are inverted and wired differently. I piggy-backed > stacked a 7404, 74141 and a machine socket with some > wire and hot glue. > The 74141s are also hard to find but many can be found > on ebay at a resonable price. > I'm quite pleased with the result because I'd moved the > failed digit to the last location that rarely gets used. > It would only display even numbers for odd. > Now they all work :) I've had a couple of those ICs fail in an HP counter too. I had a junk board from another HP counter that I was able to scavenge replacements from. Those were fairly early MSI ICs (1967). There were several NIXIE drivers being made in that period until the 74141 finally 'settled the argument'. http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/nixieref/index.html http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP5216A/index.html The other funny parts HP made for use in those counters are the decade counter chips (1820-0093 and 1820-0119) with an 11th state to represent a blanked zero. When the counter is reset it is put into the blanked-zero state. During the gate/count period, a given digit will be unblanked if it sees any clock pulses, so at the end of the gate period leading zeroes remain blanked while lower-order zeros are displayed. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:05:23 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:05:23 -0700 Subject: 1820-0092 1 of 10 nixie driver. In-Reply-To: <72cfc5ad73538815f12705702f7218c5@cs.ubc.ca> References: , , , , , , , , ,,, , ,,<4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com>, ,,, , , <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org>, , , , <72cfc5ad73538815f12705702f7218c5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > On 2011 Jun 20, at 7:50 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > I needed to replace the nixie driver on one of my > > HP counters. These are a real pain. They are hard to find > > and if I want one, I have to buy 10 at $10+ each. > > These are frustrating because there is a TTL part that > > does exactly the same thing. > > It blanks the display for values above 9 and takes a > > TTL level input. > > The part is the 74141. The only problem is that the > > logic levels are inverted and wired differently. I piggy-backed > > stacked a 7404, 74141 and a machine socket with some > > wire and hot glue. > > The 74141s are also hard to find but many can be found > > on ebay at a resonable price. > > I'm quite pleased with the result because I'd moved the > > failed digit to the last location that rarely gets used. > > It would only display even numbers for odd. > > Now they all work :) > > I've had a couple of those ICs fail in an HP counter too. I had a junk > board from another HP counter that I was able to scavenge replacements > from. > > Those were fairly early MSI ICs (1967). There were several NIXIE > drivers being made in that period until the 74141 finally 'settled the > argument'. > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/nixieref/index.html > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/HP5216A/index.html > > The other funny parts HP made for use in those counters are the decade > counter chips (1820-0093 and 1820-0119) with an 11th state to represent > a blanked zero. When the counter is reset it is put into the > blanked-zero state. During the gate/count period, a given digit will be > unblanked if it sees any clock pulses, so at the end of the gate period > leading zeroes remain blanked while lower-order zeros are displayed. > Hi I have two of the 5325Bs. These are the full two channel input, frequency/period/counters. I have ideas how to deal with the leading zero problem using preload counters. So far, I've not had any of these go bad. I had one driver and one nixie tube fail. The nixie driver was interesting in that the input lead failed open. For a long time, I could get it to work by stressing the failing pin but it eventually stopped working. It is interesting that these are not ttl inputs. An open is zero not a one. On a active low, that makes it always active. I am looking for one more thing. I am missing a cover. If anyone in the SF bay area has some junk HP stuff, I could use a cover. I like having two because I tend to do long period measurments. When in that mode one loses the programmable divider. I use the other counter as a programmable reference. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 15:14:20 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 13:14:20 -0700 Subject: Creating a 16R4 PAL to use on a recreated SwifCard for an Apple IIe In-Reply-To: References: , , , , ,,, , , <4DFD7206.6060701@neurotica.com>, , , , <4DFE1376.9030801@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com ---snip--- > > > > > I wanted to create a 16R4 for my recreated Apple IIe Swift > > > card. I wrote a simple program to enter fuses from a > > > hand made map. It also blew unused fuse lines and crossed > > > to fuses on those lines to reduce power in the final chip. > > > I did it from the map. It wasn't that hard. I don't know > > > why it is suppose to be difficult. It is just logic circuits. > > > Dwight > Hi I should also note, that the trick of blowing more fuses to reduce power only works for the true fuse type arrays. If it uses the shorted diode type arrays, you want to leave unused fuses alone. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 15:00:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:00:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> from "Barry L. Kline" at Jun 19, 11 06:58:53 pm Message-ID: > On 06/19/2011 02:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > but is it really harder to type 2 2 + rahter than > > 2 + 2? > > Actually, that would be 2 + 2 = Yes, and I suppose on older RPN calculaotrs the first is 2 ENTER 2 + . Spo the same numebr of keystrokes. For simple calcu;lations, RPN and Infix are about equal in number of keystrokes and ease of use. For complex calcualtors, RPN is a lot quicker and easier. > I prefer RPN myself. RPN is never having to press = Well, unless ou want to compare 2 values :-) It's the lack of brackets and having to think what they mean that makes RPN a big win. actually. The conventional infix ntoation is silly. The person who generates the expresson to evaluate has to add brackets to ensure it's evaulated in the ordr he wants. And the person evaulating it has to then work out which operation (in the inntermost brackets) to do first. With RPN the person genrating the expression simply ptus down the operations in the order they are to be performed, and th eperson evaulating it just reads it left-to-rigth and does said operations. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 15:03:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:03:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: <581E31F6B955405D9C54CD61D573D290@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Jun 20, 11 08:36:21 pm Message-ID: > > Tonight I made up an "adapter" from a socket as per Dwight's recommendation, > wiring it as Pete suggested. I tested the faulty ROM chip and a good one. > > Perfect! The faulty IC was all zeros and the good one contained code, just > as I had seen in the Sorcerer itself. > > Diagnosis verified. Now to just wait for the EPROMs to arrive! When you've programmed the EPROM, you'll probably need to reconfigure the jumper links for that socket on the ROM PAC PCB. They're shown on the schematic in the technical manual, let us know id you need help whith how to set them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 20 14:55:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:55:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: SOLVED! Sorcerer Cassette interface issue, or a MESSprogramming In-Reply-To: <4DFE72EF.8070209@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 19, 11 11:06:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 19/06/2011 20:20, Tony Duell wrote: > > > What does it use as the frequency reference? Does it use a crystal (and > > if so, how does it handle the frequency change). What is the mark-space > > ratio of the otuput (I found a narrow flash with a logner dark perid gave > > a much clearier indication than a 1:1 ratio). > > It uses a common crystal. You pick either a 3.2768MHz crystal for 50Hz > or a 3.93216MHz for 60Hz; it's assumed that you need one or the other Right. My design does both simply because it took just one more resistor and a switch contact to do it. I have found that useful, occasionally you find strobe patterns for one type of mains and not the other. Mine uses 4 DIL packages : 1) The master clock is a 4.9152MHz oscilalotr module. This is a standard one, used as the buad rate clock on some RS232 interfaces. 2.4576MHz is also useable, just change one conenction on the next stage. 2) A 74HCT393 dual 4-bit ripple counter. The 2 sctions are cascaded to give a /256 circuit, which is fed from the oscilaltor. This gives 19200Hz. Ifyou use the 2.45..MHz oscillator, just make this a /128 circuit. 3) A /12 or /10 counter/ I built this from a 74HCT163. Thr RCO ouput is inverted (I used a 2N3904 and 3 reistots for this to avod another IC package) and fed to the LD/ input. The parallel load inputs are jammed to 0100 or 0110 respectively (this is easy to arrange, D and A are grounded, C is tied high, B goes to a pull up resistor and the selector swithc to ground). Thus the counter counts up the appropriate number of times, then the RCO output is asserted, it reloads, and reperats. The D output of this counter is thus a clock at 16 times the required strobe frequncy. 4) Another 74HCT163, clocked from the D output of (3). The RCO outptu of that is this a 11:15 mark-space ratio signal at the required frequency (100 or 120 Hz). That drives another 2N3904 via suitable resistors, the collector load of that transistor is 4 white LEDs arranged as 2 parallel sets of 2 series-conencted LEDs with approrpaite limiting resistors. The onyl cotnrol is a 3 position rotary switch. -- the positions being off, 100 flashses/sec, 120 flashes/sec. One pole odf the swtich switches the +ve supply line to the rest of the circuit, anoterhpole controls the B input od that counter. -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Jun 20 16:05:17 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 09:05:17 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: Message-ID: > When you've programmed the EPROM, you'll probably need to reconfigure the > jumper links for that socket on the ROM PAC PCB. They're shown on the > schematic in the technical manual, let us know id you need help whith how > to set them. Thanks Tony. Pete, some of the guys of the Vintage computer Forum, have given me good advice of what to do here so I should be ok. Pete in particular as he's successfully replaced a ROM with an EPROM in his Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC, so he's had direct experience (and even has pictures of the mod). Terry (Tez) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 20 17:25:20 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 15:25:20 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> from "Barry L. Kline" at Jun 19, 11 06:58:53 pm, Message-ID: <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2011 at 21:00, Tony Duell wrote: > The conventional infix ntoation is silly. The person who generates the > expresson to evaluate has to add brackets to ensure it's evaulated in > the ordr he wants. And the person evaulating it has to then work out > which operation (in the inntermost brackets) to do first. With RPN the > person genrating the expression simply ptus down the operations in the > order they are to be performed, and th eperson evaulating it just > reads it left-to-rigth and does said operations. I suppose a calculator with infix entry wouldn't be so bad if it would store the entire entry until the = key is pressed, then evaluate it observing rules of operator precedence. But none AFAIK do, so an infix calculator really isn't. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 20 18:47:41 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 00:47:41 +0100 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/06/2011 22:05, Terry Stewart wrote: > Thanks Tony. Pete, some of the guys of the Vintage computer Forum, > have given me good advice of what to do here so I should be ok. Pete in > particular as he's successfully replaced a ROM with an EPROM in his > Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC, so he's had direct experience (and even has > pictures of the mod). More than once, actually :-) It's a not-uncommon fault, and I've fixed a few Sorcerers. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Jun 20 19:42:23 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 20:42:23 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/19/11 4:39 PM, "Rich Alderson" wrote: > 2. He wrote a UUO handler to interpret the result on the PDP-10, for > debugging, along with adding appropriate code to DDT to interpret > words in this format as 8008 instructions. (The latter unfortunately > has been lost. He would really really like to find it again.) > 3. He wrote a routine to punch the 8-bit data to a paper tape punch on > the PDP-10 (or on a TTY), for loading into the Traf-O-Data computer. Thanks RichA. Does any of the original UUO interpreter code (with the exception of the missing DDT code mentioned above) survive in a publicly-available form? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jun 20 20:10:35 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:10:35 +0100 Subject: Anyone interested in a DiscFerret intro / tutorial presentation? Message-ID: <4DFFEF8B.5070200@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, A couple of hours ago, I found a copy of some old presentation slides I put together for the "pre-release" DiscFerret which was part of my MEng project presentation. They cover the basics of magnetic data recording (on floppies only, this is before I added MFM HDD support), and how the hardware works. So how about this: a short series of DiscFerret presentations, done on Ustream or Livestream, explaining what it is, what it does, how it works, and how to make it do useful stuff. This would be both from the point of view of a user (DF-LUA / Arthur toolkit) and a programmer (LibDiscFerret API). I was thinking something along the lines of a half-hour (or so, depending on subject matter) presentation, followed by about 20 minutes for Q&A. Now for the Million Dollar Question: would anyone be interested in something like this? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From alexeyt at freeshell.org Mon Jun 20 21:14:58 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:14:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> from "Barry L. Kline" at Jun 19, 11 06:58:53 pm, <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 20 Jun 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I suppose a calculator with infix entry wouldn't be so bad if it > would store the entire entry until the = key is pressed, then > evaluate it observing rules of operator precedence. > > But none AFAIK do, so an infix calculator really isn't. I take it you've never used a 'graphing calculator'? The TI-82, TI-83, TI-85 and probably other models all do exactly what you describe, and have been selling 1 per high school student in the USA for some time now... Alexey From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 20 21:27:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:27:18 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net>, <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2011 at 2:14, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > I take it you've never used a 'graphing calculator'? The TI-82, TI-83, > TI-85 and probably other models all do exactly what you describe, and > have been selling 1 per high school student in the USA for some time > now... No, when I was in high school, if you brought a calculator, it probably meant something like a Victor Comptometer. In college, it was a slide rule, although I did know a rich kid with a Curta. Wonder if that was the last advanced technical product to come out of Liechtenstein... --Chuck From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 21:27:40 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:27:40 -0400 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ~http://www.rogtronics.net On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jun 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I suppose a calculator with infix entry wouldn't be so bad if it >> would store the entire entry until the = key is pressed, then >> evaluate it observing rules of operator precedence. >> >> But none AFAIK do, so an infix calculator really isn't. >> > > I take it you've never used a 'graphing calculator'? The TI-82, TI-83, > TI-85 and probably other models all do exactly what you describe, and have > been selling 1 per high school student in the USA for some time now... > > I always had fun with the Casio FX-7000G, the first graphing calculator from '85. With a whopping 422 bytes of memory and holds 10 programs with a huge 96x64 pixels display. Mine's a littlle dusty now, but still works. I heard some schools outlawed these in the beginning cause it was so easy to cheat ;) =Dan From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Jun 20 21:44:52 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 19:44:52 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 6/20/11 7:27 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 21 Jun 2011 at 2:14, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > >> I take it you've never used a 'graphing calculator'? The TI-82, TI-83, >> TI-85 and probably other models all do exactly what you describe, and >> have been selling 1 per high school student in the USA for some time >> now... > > No, when I was in high school, if you brought a calculator, it > probably meant something like a Victor Comptometer. > > In college, it was a slide rule, although I did know a rich kid with > a Curta. Wonder if that was the last advanced technical product to > come out of Liechtenstein... > > --Chuck It's been so long sine I have HAD to use one, I cannot, for the life of me remember how to use my slide rule :( From ragooman at gmail.com Mon Jun 20 21:56:03 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 22:56:03 -0400 Subject: Bob Pease dies in car accident Message-ID: Bob Pease dies in car accident http://tinyurl.com/3btjuar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 20 23:03:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:03:08 -0700 Subject: Bob Pease dies in car accident In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4DFFB58C.2171.288E956@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jun 2011 at 22:56, Dan Roganti wrote: > Bob Pease dies in car accident > http://tinyurl.com/3btjuar Oh, jeez. I'd just finished reading his column on diabetes in ED and was thinking about the response I was going to write to him. How sad. Another Real Original gone. --Chuck From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 20 23:33:25 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 23:33:25 -0500 Subject: Bob Pease dies in car accident In-Reply-To: <4DFFB58C.2171.288E956@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4DFFB58C.2171.288E956@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: The really weird part, is he was leaving the wake of Jim Williams (Linear Tech) > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 21:03:08 -0700 > Subject: Re: Bob Pease dies in car accident > > On 20 Jun 2011 at 22:56, Dan Roganti wrote: > > > Bob Pease dies in car accident > > http://tinyurl.com/3btjuar > > Oh, jeez. I'd just finished reading his column on diabetes in ED and > was thinking about the response I was going to write to him. > > How sad. Another Real Original gone. > > --Chuck > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 21 00:19:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 01:19:04 -0400 Subject: Bob Pease dies in car accident In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0029C8.2030309@neurotica.com> On 6/20/11 10:56 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > Bob Pease dies in car accident > http://tinyurl.com/3btjuar This is absolutely tragic. And on his way out of the memorial service in honor of Jim Williams, whose recent passing was also absolutely tragic! The electronics world has just lost two of its biggest, best people in the span of a few days. I've read dozens upon dozens of papers and articles from both of them over the years; these guys were just amazing. Their intuitive understanding of electronics was unbelievable. Rest In Peace, Bob Pease. Rest In Peace, Jim Williams. You will both be sorely missed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jonas at otter.se Mon Jun 20 04:00:56 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Mon, 20 Jun 2011 11:00:56 +0200 Subject: What Is It With Mains =?UTF-8?Q?Filters=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> They are a special type of supposedly "self healing" capacitor able >> to >> withstand spikes without catching fire. >> You would be surprised if you scoped your supply, a lot of spikes > > Be careful if ou try this. One side of the 'scope input is earthed > (and > conencted to the metal case of the 'scope). Not on my 'scope (a Philips PM3540 with a 16 channel logic analyser built in). It is double insulated and the mains plug is a 2-pin Euro-plug. Yes, the inputs are connected to the 'scope chassis and case, but the case is not earthed. /Jonas From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Tue Jun 21 05:15:27 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:15:27 -0800 Subject: Anyone interested in a DiscFerret intro / tutorial presentation? In-Reply-To: <4DFFEF8B.5070200@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: I know I would, even though I haven't built mine yet! :^) Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > Sent: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 02:10:35 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Anyone interested in a DiscFerret intro / tutorial presentation? > > Hi guys, > > A couple of hours ago, I found a copy of some old presentation slides I > put together for the "pre-release" DiscFerret which was part of my MEng > project presentation. They cover the basics of magnetic data recording > (on floppies only, this is before I added MFM HDD support), and how the > hardware works. > > So how about this: a short series of DiscFerret presentations, done on > Ustream or Livestream, explaining what it is, what it does, how it > works, and how to make it do useful stuff. This would be both from the > point of view of a user (DF-LUA / Arthur toolkit) and a programmer > (LibDiscFerret API). > > I was thinking something along the lines of a half-hour (or so, > depending on subject matter) presentation, followed by about 20 minutes > for Q&A. > > Now for the Million Dollar Question: would anyone be interested in > something like this? > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ ____________________________________________________________ Share photos & screenshots in seconds... TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if1 Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 07:25:03 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:25:03 -0500 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E008D9F.20504@gmail.com> Dan Roganti wrote: > I always had fun with the Casio FX-7000G, the first graphing calculator from > '85. With a whopping 422 bytes of memory and holds 10 programs with a huge > 96x64 pixels display. Mine's a littlle dusty now, but still works. I heard > some schools outlawed these in the beginning cause it was so easy to cheat > ;) Hmm, I had one like that - not the original black model though, but the grey one which came a little later. I don't remember the differences now (more memory?) but it was basically the same thing, I think. I still have mine in storage, and I remember I added some trailing wires and a PP3 battery socket as I was fed up of it chewing its way through the little coin-cell internal batteries. There was a nice little Mandelbrot program for it, which would take several hours to run. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 21 09:01:50 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 07:01:50 -0700 Subject: Bob Pease dies in car accident In-Reply-To: <4E0029C8.2030309@neurotica.com> References: , <4E0029C8.2030309@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 01:19:04 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Bob Pease dies in car accident > > On 6/20/11 10:56 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > > Bob Pease dies in car accident > > http://tinyurl.com/3btjuar > > This is absolutely tragic. And on his way out of the memorial > service in honor of Jim Williams, whose recent passing was also > absolutely tragic! > > The electronics world has just lost two of its biggest, best people > in the span of a few days. I've read dozens upon dozens of papers and > articles from both of them over the years; these guys were just amazing. > Their intuitive understanding of electronics was unbelievable. > > Rest In Peace, Bob Pease. > Rest In Peace, Jim Williams. > > You will both be sorely missed. > Hi Although, I didn't know him real well, I'd gone to lunch with Bob once to talk about tube analog computers. I always found his articles most informative. He was always willing to share what he knew. He will be missed, even by those who never met or knew him. Dwight From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jun 21 10:24:17 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:24:17 -0400 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... Message-ID: <046d01cc3027$49fd8130$ddf88390$@sudbrink@verizon.net> http://nistdigitalarchives.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT= /p15421coll3&CISOPTR=402&CISOBOX=1&REC=8 I'm fascinated and a little horrified by this. Was there really a teletype that could print on toilet paper without shredding it? Or is it that the US Government in the 1950s made its employees use TP that was tough enough to survive a run through a teletype?!?! Egad! From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 11:16:55 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:16:55 +0100 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid> References: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: If you are of a certain age and live in Britain you would know bog paper could be VERY strong. the following is a clip from the web " Minor British Institutions: Izal toilet paper By Sean O'Grady Saturday, 4 July 2009 It is a discomfiting thing to learn that Izal loo roll is still available. Not as discomfiting as it used to be, in the days when this slightly abrasive product was routinely found in school toilets and public conveniences, the harsh price of spending a penny away from home. Today it is not ? quite ? so harsh. San Izal has been rebranded Izal, and the tissue seems less unforgiving than before. Make no mistake, this is not the sort of roll that the Andrex puppy would like to romp around with, but it is just a little less austere than before. The scent of disinfectant seems also to have disappeared, which is a bit of a shame for those who like their khazi karma nice and traditional. It is difficult to believe that, in a world of ultra-soft pastel-hued lavatorial opulence, such a throwback to the age of austerity will still be bought out of choice (it is not particularly cheap either). Some websites market it as a "novelty product". Nostalgia, surely, has its limits: there's no need to scrape the bottom of the barrel. " It would wrinkle into sharp points and hurt ones delicate behind. I could easily see a printer being able to use it. Dave Caroline From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 11:26:38 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:26:38 -0400 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > If you are of a certain age and live in Britain you would know bog > paper could be VERY strong. Dunno if it's the era you are referring to, but I spent the summer of 1985 in Britain and remember the bog paper as being quite stout. I can imagine it surviving the rollers and printhead of an ASR-33 (not sure if it would have buckled enough to snag a dot matrix head or not). -ethan From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 12:30:37 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:30:37 -0500 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4E00D53D.7070004@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> If you are of a certain age and live in Britain you would know bog >> paper could be VERY strong. > > Dunno if it's the era you are referring to, but I spent the summer of > 1985 in Britain and remember the bog paper as being quite stout. I > can imagine it surviving the rollers and printhead of an ASR-33 (not > sure if it would have buckled enough to snag a dot matrix head or > not). The stuff we had to endure at school over there was certainly rather robust - although I recall it not being abrasive as such, but more like baking parchment in terms of texture (i.e. smooth and rather shiny in appearance). I could certainly see it making its way through a printer without mishap. I'm rather surprised that ol' James Dyson hasn't invented a replacement for toilet paper yet (doubtless involving cyclone technology). cheers Jules From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 12:33:18 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:33:18 -0400 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: <4E00D53D.7070004@gmail.com> References: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid> <4E00D53D.7070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... I spent the summer of 1985 in Britain and remember the bog paper >> as being quite stout... > > The stuff we had to endure at school over there was certainly rather robust > - although I recall it not being abrasive as such, but more like baking > parchment in terms of texture (i.e. smooth and rather shiny in appearance). I didn't know how to describe it, but you're spot on. When encountering it, we American students were gobsmacked (I think a couple of students even wrote home to get some of the soft stuff sent over). > I could certainly see it making its way through a printer without mishap. I don't fancy the chances of Charmin through a teletype, but that stuff... probably fine. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 21 12:56:31 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:56:31 -0700 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid> <4E00D53D.7070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <24297cc25476147929a7592a6d4ee8f1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 21, at 10:33 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Jules Richardson > wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> ... I spent the summer of 1985 in Britain and remember the bog paper >>> as being quite stout... >> >> The stuff we had to endure at school over there was certainly rather >> robust >> - although I recall it not being abrasive as such, but more like >> baking >> parchment in terms of texture (i.e. smooth and rather shiny in >> appearance). > > I didn't know how to describe it, but you're spot on. When > encountering it, we American students were gobsmacked (I think a > couple of students even wrote home to get some of the soft stuff sent > over). > >> I could certainly see it making its way through a printer without >> mishap. > > I don't fancy the chances of Charmin through a teletype, but that > stuff... probably fine. Enough about toilet paper, the burning question is how is it there are even numbers in a supposed list of prime number calculations from SEAC? > http://nistdigitalarchives.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php? > CISOROOT= > /p15421coll3&CISOPTR=402&CISOBOX=1&REC=8 From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jun 21 12:56:29 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:56:29 -0700 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Richard Cini Sent: Monday, June 20, 2011 5:42 PM > On 6/19/11 4:39 PM, "Rich Alderson" wrote: >> 2. He wrote a UUO handler to interpret the result on the PDP-10, for >> debugging, along with adding appropriate code to DDT to interpret >> words in this format as 8008 instructions. (The latter unfortunately >> has been lost. He would really really like to find it again.) >> 3. He wrote a routine to punch the 8-bit data to a paper tape punch on >> the PDP-10 (or on a TTY), for loading into the Traf-O-Data computer. > Thanks RichA. Does any of the original UUO interpreter code (with the > exception of the missing DDT code mentioned above) survive in a > publicly-available form? Hi, RichC, I'm afraid not. The original code is the private property of Paul Allen, though Microsoft used later versions in its language business for many years. (A friend of mine was the maintainer/developer of Microsoft's tool chain back in the 1970s and 1980s. He appears in the famous picture of the team from Albuquerque.) We have talked to Mr. Allen about the possibility of making this available, but he has not responded either way. He used the simulator and original source code to create the Altair BASIC which he demonstrated during his interview with Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes, so a working copy (other than the DDT) does exist. We'll announce its availability, when and if we get permission to put it up. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 12:58:51 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 10:58:51 -0700 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: References: <5939424359129599890@unknownmsgid>, <4E00D53D.7070004@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4E00796B.2550.6B2DCE@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2011 at 13:33, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I didn't know how to describe it, but you're spot on. When > encountering it, we American students were gobsmacked (I think a > couple of students even wrote home to get some of the soft stuff sent > over). When I backpacked through Europe around 1976, I was told by friends to pack toilet paper along, that I'd never regret it. I did--and didn't regret it. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:30:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:30:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 20, 11 03:25:20 pm Message-ID: > I suppose a calculator with infix entry wouldn't be so bad if it > would store the entire entry until the = key is pressed, then > evaluate it observing rules of operator precedence. > > But none AFAIK do, so an infix calculator really isn't. Eh? A lot do, going back to the HP9830 (and I think the HP9820, but it's been a few months since I used that machine). You can type in a long expression and then evalulate it. You can also recall the expression, change it and re-evalulate. Yes, these machines are almost 40 years old now... Many modern calculators from Casio, TI, Sharp, etc let you do much the same thing. The HP49/50 series let you either work in algebraic mode (where they behave like a TI/Casio roughly) or in RPN mode. In the latter mode you can push an algebraic (infix) expression onto the stack and evaluate it, or manipulate it. Perhaps one of the nicest pure infix machines was the HP71B. That has a 'calc' mode where you cna type in an expression and evlauate it, recall if for editing, etc. But it also has the feature that as soon as a sub-expression cna be evaluated, it will do so. For example : If you type 2*3, it remains as that on the display. If you then type +, the dispaly changes to 6+ (since + hasa lower priortiy than *, the multiplication cna be evaulated at that point, so that's what the machine does). It's _almost_ as nice as RPN in that is shows you intermediate answers too. But I still prefer RPN. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:15:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:15:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: What Is It With Mains =?UTF-8?Q?Filters=3F?= In-Reply-To: from "jonas@otter.se" at Jun 20, 11 11:00:56 am Message-ID: > > Be careful if ou try this. One side of the 'scope input is earthed > > (and > > conencted to the metal case of the 'scope). > > Not on my 'scope (a Philips PM3540 with a 16 channel logic analyser > built in). > It is double insulated and the mains plug is a 2-pin Euro-plug. > Yes, the inputs are connected to the 'scope chassis and case, but the > case is not earthed. Hmmm.. I don't think I'd want to have a large metal case (the 'scope) sitting at mains voltage. Too easy to touch by accident.... The service manual for the power supply in my P854 computer gives waveforms for the mains-side circuitry, around the chopper transiotr, etc. It tells you to run thge supply off an isolating transformer for thwse measuirmetns, or if such a device is not avaiable to disconnect the mains earth lead of the 'scope. No thanks! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:56:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:56:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: from "Geoffrey Reed" at Jun 20, 11 07:44:52 pm Message-ID: > > In college, it was a slide rule, although I did know a rich kid with > > a Curta. Wonder if that was the last advanced technical product to I'd lovea Curta. but not at the price they now sell for :-). They really are fun to frob about with... > > come out of Liechtenstein... Isn';t that where Nutrik connectors (haigh quality audoo connectors) claim to come from? Althought I doubt they're made there. > > > > --Chuck > > It's been so long sine I have HAD to use one, I cannot, for the life of me > remember how to use my slide rule :( Eh? If you undersnad what a slide rule really does (it add lengths essentially) and know what a logarithm is, you don;t need to remember hgow to sue one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 14:05:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 20:05:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: <046d01cc3027$49fd8130$ddf88390$@sudbrink@verizon.net> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jun 21, 11 11:24:17 am Message-ID: > > http://nistdigitalarchives.contentdm.oclc.org/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT= > /p15421coll3&CISOPTR=402&CISOBOX=1&REC=8 > > I'm fascinated and a little horrified by this. Was there really a teletype > that could print on toilet paper without shredding it? Or is it that the > US Government in the 1950s made its employees use TP that was tough enough > to survive a run through a teletype?!?! Egad! I don;t know about the States, but over here there was a government issue TP that had a glossy finish (!). It was generally nicknamed 'cowboy' (or similar on the grounts it's rough, it's tough anf it don't take no sh*t. I suspect you could feed that through any teletpye... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 13:30:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 19:30:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 20, 11 03:25:20 pm Message-ID: > I suppose a calculator with infix entry wouldn't be so bad if it > would store the entire entry until the = key is pressed, then > evaluate it observing rules of operator precedence. > > But none AFAIK do, so an infix calculator really isn't. Eh? A lot do, going back to the HP9830 (and I think the HP9820, but it's been a few months since I used that machine). You can type in a long expression and then evalulate it. You can also recall the expression, change it and re-evalulate. Yes, these machines are almost 40 years old now... Many modern calculators from Casio, TI, Sharp, etc let you do much the same thing. The HP49/50 series let you either work in algebraic mode (where they behave like a TI/Casio roughly) or in RPN mode. In the latter mode you can push an algebraic (infix) expression onto the stack and evaluate it, or manipulate it. Perhaps one of the nicest pure infix machines was the HP71B. That has a 'calc' mode where you cna type in an expression and evlauate it, recall if for editing, etc. But it also has the feature that as soon as a sub-expression cna be evaluated, it will do so. For example : If you type 2*3, it remains as that on the display. If you then type +, the dispaly changes to 6+ (since + hasa lower priortiy than *, the multiplication cna be evaulated at that point, so that's what the machine does). It's _almost_ as nice as RPN in that is shows you intermediate answers too. But I still prefer RPN. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 21 15:11:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 13:11:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net> > > It's been so long sine I have HAD to use one, I cannot, for the life of me > > remember how to use my slide rule :( On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Eh? If you undersnad what a slide rule really does (it add lengths > essentially) and know what a logarithm is, you don;t need to remember > hgow to sue one. In addition to using scales C & D to add logarithms (multiply!), scales A & D (or B & C) give you squares and square roots. A decent slide rule usually had half a dozen other useful scales. In 1966?, for the SATs?, slide rules were not permitted, and, for obvious historical reasons, they didn't need to write calculators in the rules. I couldn't afford to test their reaction to a Curta. But they encouraged us to bring scratch paper! Even log paper! It did not require any serious origami skill to make a quite usable slide rule. The next year, THEY supplied blank unlined scratch paper. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 21 15:34:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:34:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 21, 11 01:11:57 pm Message-ID: > > > > It's been so long sine I have HAD to use one, I cannot, for the life of me > > > remember how to use my slide rule :( > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > Eh? If you undersnad what a slide rule really does (it add lengths > > essentially) and know what a logarithm is, you don;t need to remember > > hgow to sue one. > > In addition to using scales C & D to add logarithms (multiply!), > scales A & D (or B & C) give you squares and square roots. True, but you can spot that by inspection :-) > > A decent slide rule usually had half a dozen other useful scales. I've always wanted a slide rule with the C and D scaled marked with the E48 (or at least E24 resisotr values). Then if I want a particular ratio in potential divider, I can sert the slide and see which values line up (or at least are close to lining up). > In 1966?, for the SATs?, slide rules were not permitted, and, for obvious FWIW, I've always felt that uou shpuld be able to birng anything you like into an exam, apart from another person or a communicatin device to another person. It's a more realistic test of your abilities (If I am asked to desing or make soemthing, I use whatever books, calculators, tools, tc I can that will help me do so) and if the exam was properly written it would not mean idiots would pass. > historical reasons, they didn't need to write calculators in the rules. I > couldn't afford to test their reaction to a Curta. > But they encouraged us to bring scratch paper! Even log paper! It did > not require any serious origami skill to make a quite usable slide rule. Hmm. I think that anybosy who makes their own slide rule in this way deserves to pass. With flying colours. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 21 16:03:45 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:03:45 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E010731.5040902@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > FWIW, I've always felt that uou shpuld be able to birng anything you like > into an exam, apart from another person or a communicatin device to > another person. I was in an undergrad math class in the early 1980s, and the students kept pestering the instructor about whether they could use this, that, or the other thing on the exam. The instructor finally said that they could use anything that they could carry into the room. One guy carried in a grad student. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 16:07:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:07:06 -0700 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 20, 11 03:25:20 pm, Message-ID: <4E00A58A.28168.117883D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2011 at 19:30, Tony Duell wrote: > Eh? A lot do, going back to the HP9830 (and I think the HP9820, but > it's been a few months since I used that machine). You can type in a > long expression and then evalulate it. You can also recall the > expression, change it and re-evalulate. Yes, these machines are almost > 40 years old now... I guess I've been brainwashed by too many cheap calculators. Looking in my desk drawer, there are a bunch that I've used maybe once and discarded. The latest is a solar-powered job with an all-but invisible decimal point display, so to use it, you pretty much have to keep track of the point mentally. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 21 16:32:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 14:32:40 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: <4E010731.5040902@brouhaha.com> References: , <4E010731.5040902@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E00AB88.2211.12EF01F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jun 2011 at 14:03, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > I was in an undergrad math class in the early 1980s, and the students > kept pestering the instructor about whether they could use this, that, > or the other thing on the exam. The instructor finally said that they > could use anything that they could carry into the room. One guy > carried in a grad student. I remember that Sam Conte would lug in a big Monroe(ISTR) adding machine to the first session of his Numerical Analysis classes at Purdue to demonstrate the idea of significance and error. Isn't there a little project on the web that uses a SDHC and a small microcontroller to render the entire contents of Wikipeida (sans images) as a nice iPod-sized gizmo? --Chuck From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Jun 21 17:43:59 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 18:43:59 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/21/11 1:56 PM, "Rich Alderson" wrote: > Hi, RichC, > > I'm afraid not. The original code is the private property of Paul Allen, > though Microsoft used later versions in its language business for many > years. (A friend of mine was the maintainer/developer of Microsoft's > tool chain back in the 1970s and 1980s. He appears in the famous picture > of the team from Albuquerque.) > > We have talked to Mr. Allen about the possibility of making this available, > but he has not responded either way. > > He used the simulator and original source code to create the Altair BASIC > which he demonstrated during his interview with Leslie Stahl on 60 Minutes, > so a working copy (other than the DDT) does exist. We'll announce its > availability, when and if we get permission to put it up. RichA: Thanks again. I hope Paul ultimately decides to release it for educational purposes -- it would be an interesting read. Always looking to learn something new, I actually downloaded some of the PDP-10 manuals to peruse (not having experience with the 10 myself -- I did own for a while an 11/34 though). Regards, Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From jonas at otter.se Tue Jun 21 04:21:35 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:21:35 +0200 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > [Reasons why I use an RPN calculator snipped] > >> I'm intrigued. I don't understand, but that's OK. > > What don;'t you understand ? RPN, or why I prefer to use it? AFAIK compilers often/usually convert expression to postfix notation (RPN or close) during parsing. Also of course the Burroughs B5000 series and successors (up to B7800 IIRC) were stack machines, using postfix notation internally. At university a calculator was a necessity, I had an HP-25 and I always found that RPN made it a lot easier to keep track of where I was in complex calculations, e.g. when working out the reactance of some series-parallel-whatever network of R, L and C. The equations usually barely fitted on one line of a sheet of notepaper, involved lots of additions, subtractions, divisions and multiplications and conversions between rectangular and polar coordinates, and I did not envy those who used infix calculators. /Jonas From jonas at otter.se Tue Jun 21 04:39:44 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 11:39:44 +0200 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> >> Manifest in the 70's as HP vs TI. >> > >> > Over here, TI calcualtros were not particularly common. The common >> > brand >> > was (and is, I guess) Casio. >> > >> Interesting, do you know if TI didn't make much market effort over >> there, or their calcs just weren't well-received in the market? > > I don't, I'm afraid. > > TI calculators doexist over here, but if you just went ot buy 'a > caluclator' you'd either get some no-nam hose brand 4-banger or a > Casio > most likely. > > I would estimate that Sharp calculators were actually more common > than TI > over here. > >> >> >> > Of course those of us who prefer RPN bought HPs. When I went to university in 1976, everybody got a calculator. There were two models which sold the most: the TI-57 and the HP-25, virtually no other makes were sold at all. They were essentially equivalent, the TI being rather cheaper but faster. The odd HP-67, SR-52 or TI-59 sold as well, although you had to have rich parents, plenty of savings or mortgage parts of your body to the devil to afford one. HPs were considered the BMWs of calculators, the TIs were the Fords :-) I got an HP-25 which I never regretted, the extra money I spent probably gave me a couple of extra years longer life thanks to less stress using it, owing to RPN. /Jonas From martin.huch at gmx.de Tue Jun 21 14:34:51 2011 From: martin.huch at gmx.de (Martin Huch) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 21:34:51 +0200 Subject: mini-cassette LDB 4401 Message-ID: <9B9AC38D-66B6-4D1B-8A47-C918F0B19FDE@gmx.de> found your 6 years old post. Are you still interested in Philips LDB4401 mini cassettes (used)? I've got at least one, and I could check for some more. regards Martin Munich, Germany From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Tue Jun 21 17:25:22 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 23:25:22 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... Message-ID: <01O2RCNGERXU002N2Y@beyondthepale.ie> Richard Cini wrote: >From stackoverflow.net (someone was talking about porting/conversion >projects they were involved in): > >"Ported an 8080 simulator written in FORTRAN 77 from a DECSystem-10 running >TOPS-10 to an IBM 4381 mainframe running VM/CMS." > >Interesting comment. I wonder if that's how Gates/Allen would have done it. > For my final year engineering degree project, I co-wrote a Z80 simulator in somewhat pre-FORTRAN-77 to run on an IBM 4381 running MUSIC (under VM). The college planned to use this to teach students about microprocessors but I don't know if this was ever done. Not having much use for a Z80 simulator myself, I later rewrote it as a 6502 simulator and then converted the core of the simulator from FORTRAN to IBM 370 assembly and later still, VAX assembly. It can run the BASIC rom from the BBC Micro but not the OS rom. Instead some mainly text based OS functions are emulated/simulated directly. Software such as text based adventure games for the BBC Micro can be run on the simulator but anything relying on graphics, sound or trying to play directly with the hardware doesn't do so well. I didn't go on to have any input into MS-DOS or Windows :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From robert.stek at gmail.com Tue Jun 21 19:29:16 2011 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Robert Stek) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 17:29:16 -0700 Subject: : Anyone interested in a DiscFerret intro / tutorial Message-ID: <001801cc3073$6c0f5c20$442e1460$@gmail.com> I would be interested, especially from the user point of view. Bob Stek Saver of lost Sols From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 22 01:36:38 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2011 23:36:38 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net> References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Jun 21, at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> It's been so long sine I have HAD to use one, I cannot, for the life >>> of me >>> remember how to use my slide rule :( > > On Tue, 21 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Eh? If you undersnad what a slide rule really does (it add lengths >> essentially) and know what a logarithm is, you don;t need to remember >> hgow to sue one. > > In addition to using scales C & D to add logarithms (multiply!), > scales A & D (or B & C) give you squares and square roots. > > A decent slide rule usually had half a dozen other useful scales. > As a kid ca. 1974, I received one slide rule for a high school honours award, and another (a sophisticated, 21 scales, 'professional' Faber Castell) as a gift. Not to say I didn't learn something from them, but they were both just in time to be useless in practice as scientific calculators took over. While I much prefer RPN for execution on a key-press calculator, I'd rather read and write infix for textual presentation and programming. I'm not really that fond of Forth as one has to mentally track the stack state as you read the code, but it may be a lack of familiarity as I haven't used really use it extensively. Does anyone actually prefer RPN for textual presentation? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 08:33:15 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 06:33:15 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca ---snip--- > > I'm not really that fond of Forth as one has to mentally track the > stack state as you read the code, but it may be a lack of familiarity > as I haven't used really use it extensively. > > Does anyone actually prefer RPN for textual presentation? > Hi As you probably know, I'm a great fan of Forth. If it is something I'm doing for myself, I'll take Forth. It is easier to write and debug. As for RPN for equations, I don't think I've ever tried to do algebra in RPN. I'm not sure it would be as intuitive. Each has its purpose, I see. RPN is much better for description of what to do. This is what we write programs to do. Describe what to do to a computer. It just seem more natural for that purpose. Othe languages use mixed, like C. For math, it is infixed and for everything else, it is post fixed. Surely, that can't be natural. At least LISP is consistant, everything is postfixed. I just have a problem debugging LISP because I can't follow the order of operation as easily ( I suspose one does get used to it ). So, I guess the answer to your question is that I do not prefer RPN for testual presentation. Even when I comment Forth code, I will use infixed notation. As an example, I might write: : + ( a b - a+b ) + ; I'm not sure if that is because I was taught infixed first or because it is better for presentation. As for keeping track of the stack, I've always felt that what Forth needed was a better editor that kept a stack picture on the side showing state of the stack at the cursor. It would substitute local comments when ever they were there but otherwise would use the stack picture of that operation with the current elements. The only probem I never figured out was how to handle the case were one intentionally had a variable number of items returned on the stack. It isn't used often but when used, it makes sense. Most times, an unbalanced stack is an error but not always. Dwight From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Jun 22 09:32:54 2011 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 07:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II Concert in Los Angeles, looking for more Apple IIs Message-ID: <458701.10092.qm@web113516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I figured someone in Cali would take interest in this. http://machineproject.com/archive/events/2011/06/25/apple-ii-concert/ Apple II Concert Saturday, June 25th, 2011 6pm: Meeting of the Apple II owners/musicians 8pm: Concert The old Apple II, first introduced in 1977, was a revolutionary computer in many ways. Sound capabilities were not one of them. The Apple II?s sound system, unlike contemporaries such as the Atari 800 or Commodore 64, did not use a discreet sound chip, but rather a simple timer circuit that could be coaxed into creating square-wave tones. Most chiptune musicians tend to use sound-chip based systems, but there is a certain charm to square-wave tones. Some may define this charm as ?annoyance.? So, as a grand ?musical? experiment, noted loon Jason Torchinsky has written a crude 16-step sequencer for the Apple II, and is seeking to gather up as many Apple IIs as possible to construct an orchestra which will then perform a live, dynamic concert/musical event. Machine?s resident music guru, Chris Kallemyer, will be on hand to discuss the nature of music, why some of the Apple?s 256 tones are notes and some are not, and generally help make things somewhat listenable. Who knows what the end result will sound like? A chorus of angels, poking at touch-tone phones? All the computers from the background of every sci-fi movie from the 1950s-80s going off at once? A serenade by a truckload of R2-D2s? Come on out and listen for yourselves. We are currently seeking Apple II owners to contribute to making this happen! Please contact machine at machineproject.com if you would like to participate! From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jun 22 11:31:51 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 17:31:51 +0100 Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 19 June 2011 19:21, Tony Duell wrote: > [Reasons why I use an RPN calculator snipped] > >> I'm intrigued. I don't understand, but that's OK. > > What don;'t you understand ? RPN, or why I prefer to use it? [Explanation cut] Sorry, I missed this message until Jonas quoted it. I understand RPN intellectually, but not at a "gut level" - as such I find it a real pain to actually /use/ - & since there is no need to in anything I use, that means I don't, and thus I never improve & probably never will. A bit like binary or octal. > RPN is, I suppose rather differnt to many modern computer products. The > latter seem to be designed to make simple problems trivial, but > unfortunately, they make complex problems very difficult or impossible. > RPN (and in gnerally the tools I prefer) makes simple problems pehaps a > little more dififcult (but is it really harder to type 2 2 + rahter than > 2 + 2?) but make dififuclt problems a lot easier. Since generally I sue > calcualtors and computers for difficult problems that I can't solve in my > head, I prefer such tools. Fair enough. I think you have a point there. There is some "dumbing down" occurring in modern computers. Mostly, I'm strongly in favour of making them simpler, easier & thus more accessible to more people - but that does mean that sometimes, functionality is lost, & that's obviously a damned shame. And occasionally enough to put experienced users off upgrading altogether - as is currently happening with Ubuntu and its new Unity desktop. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 22 12:09:18 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 13:09:18 -0400 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... In-Reply-To: <01O2RCNGERXU002N2Y@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01O2RCNGERXU002N2Y@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4E0221BE.5020708@neurotica.com> On 6/21/11 6:25 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > For my final year engineering degree project, I co-wrote a Z80 simulator in > somewhat pre-FORTRAN-77 to run on an IBM 4381 running MUSIC (under VM). The > college planned to use this to teach students about microprocessors but I > don't know if this was ever done. > > Not having much use for a Z80 simulator myself, I later rewrote it as a 6502 > simulator and then converted the core of the simulator from FORTRAN to IBM 370 > assembly and later still, VAX assembly. It can run the BASIC rom from the BBC > Micro but not the OS rom. Instead some mainly text based OS functions are > emulated/simulated directly. Software such as text based adventure games for > the BBC Micro can be run on the simulator but anything relying on graphics, > sound or trying to play directly with the hardware doesn't do so well. That sounds really, really cool. Do you still have the source code? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jun 22 12:55:45 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:55:45 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: From: dwight elvey Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:33 AM > At least LISP is consistant, everything is postfixed. I just have > a problem debugging LISP because I can't follow the order of > operation as easily ( I suspose one does get used to it ). "post" = "after". Lisp is *pre*fixed, i. e., it uses the original Polish notation, rather than the reverse Polish notation foisted on us by a calculator manufacturer.[1] The order of evaluation of a Lisp expression is depth-first, both for the operator position and for all arguments. Any decent editor will format the code so that the flow is obvious; for that matter, Lisp has had pretty-printer functions since the 1960s to take care of that for you. Lisp is easy to debug. [1] Yes, I know, RPN came into use before HP started making calculators. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 22 13:21:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 11:21:21 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4E01D031.9304.8C12A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jun 2011 at 10:55, Rich Alderson wrote: > "post" = "after". Lisp is *pre*fixed, i. e., it uses the original > Polish notation, rather than the reverse Polish notation foisted on us > by a calculator manufacturer.[1] Strictly speaking, it's not pure "reverse Polish" notation. Consider that infix 3-2 in (forward) Polish notation is - 3 2. If we were dealing with strictly reversed Polish, both the operators and operands would be reversed, and thus 2 3 -. But only the operators are reversed in what we call "Reverse Polish"; thus 3 2 -. It's one thing that's always bugged me a bit. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 13:35:14 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 11:35:14 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, , , , Message-ID: > From: RichA at vulcan.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:55:45 -0700 > Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] > > From: dwight elvey > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:33 AM > > > At least LISP is consistant, everything is postfixed. I just have > > a problem debugging LISP because I can't follow the order of > > operation as easily ( I suspose one does get used to it ). > > "post" = "after". Lisp is *pre*fixed, i. e., it uses the original > Polish notation, rather than the reverse Polish notation foisted on > us by a calculator manufacturer.[1] > Oops! Your right.It was early in the morning for me. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jun 22 13:40:58 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 11:40:58 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: <4E01D031.9304.8C12A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , , , , <4E01D031.9304.8C12A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 22 Jun 2011 at 10:55, Rich Alderson wrote: > > > "post" = "after". Lisp is *pre*fixed, i. e., it uses the original > > Polish notation, rather than the reverse Polish notation foisted on us > > by a calculator manufacturer.[1] > > Strictly speaking, it's not pure "reverse Polish" notation. Consider > that infix 3-2 in (forward) Polish notation is - 3 2. If we were > dealing with strictly reversed Polish, both the operators and > operands would be reversed, and thus 2 3 -. But only the operators > are reversed in what we call "Reverse Polish"; thus 3 2 -. > > It's one thing that's always bugged me a bit. > > --Chuck > Hi Chuck I know what you mean. The operators < and > always confuse me a little for the same reason. I tend to try to think of it like unrolling it backwards from the operation and that doesn't work. You could rewrite Forth easily enough and call it -Forth. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 13:14:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:14:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: <4E010731.5040902@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 21, 11 02:03:45 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > FWIW, I've always felt that uou shpuld be able to birng anything you > like > > into an exam, apart from another person or a communicatin device to > > another person. > > I was in an undergrad math class in the early 1980s, and the students > kept pestering the instructor about whether they could use this, that, > or the other thing on the exam. The instructor finally said that they > could use anything that they could carry into the room. One guy carried > in a grad student. There are sevral (apocryphal) stories of students being told they can 'bring Feynman to the exam' (meaning, of course, the 3 read books or equivalent) and somebody turning up with the Porfessor himself. Fromwhat I've read, I could well believe that Feynman would go along with such a stunt :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 13:53:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:53:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 21, 11 11:36:38 pm Message-ID: > While I much prefer RPN for execution on a key-press calculator, I'd > rather read and write infix for textual presentation and programming. Which is simply an example of 'The right tool to use depends on the circumstancs', a view that I do not disagree with (and I doubt anyone else does either). There are, I agree, some things that are easier to do with an infix expression (althohgh to be honest, that may be because algebra is taught using infix, I am certainy it's possible to come up with equivalent rules to do the manipulations in RPN). In which case I will use infix. Similarly, I don;t feel that one programming lanugage is the right one to use for _all_ programs. Or that one piece of electornic test gear is the best thing to use to find all possible faults. > > I'm not really that fond of Forth as one has to mentally track the > stack state as you read the code, but it may be a lack of familiarity > as I haven't used really use it extensively. It depends on what you are doing. I use Forth (and I use RPL even more), but not for everything. And yes you do have to keep track of the stack, but it gets easier with practice. > Does anyone actually prefer RPN for textual presentation? I am not sure what you are askingaobut here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 22 14:21:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 20:21:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: from "Liam Proven" at Jun 22, 11 05:31:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 19 June 2011 19:21, Tony Duell wrote: > > [Reasons why I use an RPN calculator snipped] > > > >> I'm intrigued. I don't understand, but that's OK. > > > > What don;'t you understand ? RPN, or why I prefer to use it? > [Explanation cut] > > Sorry, I missed this message until Jonas quoted it. > > I understand RPN intellectually, but not at a "gut level" - as such I > find it a real pain to actually /use/ - & since there is no need to in I am sure different people think in differnet ways. For me, as soon as I started learning RPN, I found it very natural, and I picked it up in about an hour. > anything I use, that means I don't, and thus I never improve & > probably never will. A bit like binary or octal. I, of course, use binary and octal all the time... > > > RPN is, I suppose rather differnt to many modern computer products. The > > latter seem to be designed to make simple problems trivial, but > > unfortunately, they make complex problems very difficult or impossible. > > RPN (and in gnerally the tools I prefer) makes simple problems pehaps a > > little more dififcult (but is it really harder to type 2 2 + rahter than > > 2 + 2?) but make dififuclt problems a lot easier. Since generally I sue > > calcualtors and computers for difficult problems that I can't solve in my > > head, I prefer such tools. > > Fair enough. I think you have a point there. There is some "dumbing > down" occurring in modern computers. Mostly, I'm strongly in favour of There is a lot of 'dumbing down' with mdoern computers ;-( > making them simpler, easier & thus more accessible to more people - > but that does mean that sometimes, functionality is lost, & that's I am, of coruse, not in favour of making this difficult to use for no good reason. For example, while I know many of the ASCII codes for common characters in binary (I spend enough timinm,e repairing printers, terminals, etc), I would not want to rplace this keyboard with a row of 7 or 8 toggle wrichs and a 'send character' betton. The thing is, that while I use a computers -- a lot -- I don't _always_ use a computer. I use whatever tools I feel are most approrpatie to the job (OK, somtimes I get it wrong). Most of the time, when I am designing some bit of electronics, I sketch a scheamtic on a bit of paper and do the calcualtions on a hand calcualtor. You can argue that I only design simple stuff, which may well be true (and to be honest, I probsably _wouldn't_ use this method for anything very complicated), but for such simple designs, a CAD system would actually slow me down. So I don't use one. Nor do I use a word processor to record, say, the colours of wires I am disconnectiong. I use a notebook. A paper notebook. The other day I needed to make a new main bearing fro a rotary telephone dial. I did a sketch in aid notbook and marked in the important dimensions. I machines part of it, then tried it for it, and made adjustments. This diagram would certain;t not have been suitable for giving to a production departmetn, but for what I was doing, making a 1-off part that I could fit to the other parts by hamd, it was, IMHO, the right solution No, I use a computer when the job is too difficult to do by hand. Normally this means a lot of repitition. I have better things to do than do the same job over nad over again. Wht this means is that any computer without a probgrammign language, or at least a scripting language, is useless to me. Unforutantely, such things are the first to go when the product is dumbed down. It is also a common mistake to confuse 'easy to learn' with 'easy to use'. I want the latter, which may not mean the former. In othre words, I am happy to spend days/weeks/months learning how to use a tool if that is going to mean I cna do something I couldn't do before, or will produce a superior result, etc. I will not want to use soemthign that takes half an hour to learn if it doesn't improve on what I could already do. Unfortuantel, a lot of modern products seem to be in that category. Quick to be able to get them to do something, but you can never get them to really help you. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 22 14:28:51 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 12:28:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> > FWIW, I've always felt that uou shpuld be able to birng anything you >> like >> > into an exam, apart from another person or a communicatin device to >> > another person. >> >> I was in an undergrad math class in the early 1980s, and the students >> kept pestering the instructor about whether they could use this, that, >> or the other thing on the exam. The instructor finally said that they >> could use anything that they could carry into the room. One guy carried >> in a grad student. > > There are sevral (apocryphal) stories of students being told they can > 'bring Feynman to the exam' (meaning, of course, the 3 read books or > equivalent) and somebody turning up with the Porfessor himself. Fromwhat > I've read, I could well believe that Feynman would go along with such a > stunt :-) > After reading, "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" I would agree. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jun 22 14:36:52 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:36:52 -0400 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System References: Message-ID: <7F6DEFA43DA7471CBAFF8DF121D6D9AE@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System >> >> Tony Duell wrote: >> > FWIW, I've always felt that uou shpuld be able to birng anything you >> like >> > into an exam, apart from another person or a communicatin device to >> > another person. >> >> I was in an undergrad math class in the early 1980s, and the students >> kept pestering the instructor about whether they could use this, that, >> or the other thing on the exam. The instructor finally said that they >> could use anything that they could carry into the room. One guy carried >> in a grad student. > > There are sevral (apocryphal) stories of students being told they can > 'bring Feynman to the exam' (meaning, of course, the 3 read books or > equivalent) and somebody turning up with the Porfessor himself. Fromwhat > I've read, I could well believe that Feynman would go along with such a > stunt :-) > > -tony Back in the late 80's in engineering school we had issues with the ever expanding memory on scientific calculators (I used a Tandy PC-6) and how people could dump enough information and equations to cheat on tests. Professors at the time (some using very old HP calcs that were pre LCD) had no idea you could dump lots of text and full equations into current models of calculators. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 22 17:17:28 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:17:28 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators] In-Reply-To: References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: Rich Alderson wrote: >..rather than the reverse Polish notation foisted on > us by a calculator manufacturer.[1] > >[1] Yes, I know, RPN came into use before HP started making calculators. A few calculators used RPN either internally (for evaluation of algebraically-entered expressions), or as the means for expression entry before HP came out with the 9100A. The Friden 130 was the first calculator to use RPN entry. The Mathatronics Mathatron used RPN internally. Some really complex logic allowed it to evaluate algebraic expressions entered in "as written" form. The algebraic expressions were converted to RPN internally and evaluated on the fly. The Monroe EPIC 2000/3000 calculators also used RPN entry. All of these machines were implemented using discrete transistors and (delay line|magnetic core) for memory. The HP 9100A was implemented with the same technologies, but it was done so elegantly, and in a package that was much smaller and so much more capable than any of its predecessors. That's what made HP famous as the "inventor" of RPN in the context of calculators. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jun 22 17:57:07 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 15:57:07 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 6/22/11 12:28 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: >> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> There are sevral (apocryphal) stories of students being told they can >> 'bring Feynman to the exam' (meaning, of course, the 3 read books or >> equivalent) and somebody turning up with the Porfessor himself. Fromwhat >> I've read, I could well believe that Feynman would go along with such a >> stunt :-) >> > After reading, "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" I would agree. :) > > g. One of may favorite reads. A shame he passed before his time. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 22 18:05:14 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:05:14 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4E02752A.90600@mail.msu.edu> On 6/22/2011 10:55 AM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: dwight elvey > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 6:33 AM > >> At least LISP is consistant, everything is postfixed. I just have >> a problem debugging LISP because I can't follow the order of >> operation as easily ( I suspose one does get used to it ). > "post" = "after". Lisp is *pre*fixed, i. e., it uses the original > Polish notation, rather than the reverse Polish notation foisted on > us by a calculator manufacturer.[1] > > The order of evaluation of a Lisp expression is depth-first, both for > the operator position and for all arguments. Any decent editor will > format the code so that the flow is obvious; for that matter, Lisp has > had pretty-printer functions since the 1960s to take care of that for > you. Lisp is easy to debug. > > [1] Yes, I know, RPN came into use before HP started making calculators. > As befits this conversation of RPN, Lisp, and calculators, I thought I'd mention that at one point a couple of years back I hacked together a Lisp "compiler" (really a translator) for the HP-48 series. It's just a small set of RPL programs that translate Lisp code (written using curly-braces in the place of parens, since that's what the HP-48 uses to denote lists) into its RPL equivalent. The similarities between the two languages is so slight (RPL does stand for "Reverse Polish Lisp" after all) it only took an afternoon of doodling around to get a decent subset of Lisp working. Really, it made me appreciate how flexible the HP-48 is -- RPL programs can generate other RPL programs! As a very simple example, {defun foo {a b} {+ a b}} becomes a program named "foo" containing: << -> a b << a b + >> >> Never found a good use for it, but it was a fun exercise :). (If anyone wants the code, I can send it your way...) - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 22 18:11:52 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:11:52 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: <4E02752A.90600@mail.msu.edu> References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, <4E02752A.90600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E0276B8.4060608@mail.msu.edu> On 6/22/2011 4:05 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > The similarities between the two languages is so slight (RPL does > stand for "Reverse Polish Lisp" after all) it only took an afternoon > of doodling around to get a decent subset of Lisp working. That should be "The *differences* between the two..." but I'm sure you get the idea... - Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 22 18:21:05 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:21:05 -0400 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: <4E02752A.90600@mail.msu.edu> References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, <4E02752A.90600@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4E0278E1.6020605@neurotica.com> On 6/22/11 7:05 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > As befits this conversation of RPN, Lisp, and calculators, I thought I'd > mention that at one point a couple of years back I hacked together a > Lisp "compiler" (really a translator) for the HP-48 series. It's just a > small set of RPL programs that translate Lisp code (written using > curly-braces in the place of parens, since that's what the HP-48 uses to > denote lists) into its RPL equivalent. The similarities between the two > languages is so slight (RPL does stand for "Reverse Polish Lisp" after > all) it only took an afternoon of doodling around to get a decent subset > of Lisp working. Really, it made me appreciate how flexible the HP-48 is > -- RPL programs can generate other RPL programs! > > As a very simple example, > > {defun foo {a b} {+ a b}} > > becomes a program named "foo" containing: > > << -> a b << a b + >> >> > > Never found a good use for it, but it was a fun exercise :). > > (If anyone wants the code, I can send it your way...) Neat!! Hey, I'd love to hack around with that. I have an SX; will it be ok on there? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 22 18:45:41 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 16:45:41 -0700 Subject: Lisp and Polish notation [was RE: Calculators Re: Useless thread...] In-Reply-To: <4E0278E1.6020605@neurotica.com> References: <20110621130323.L12218@shell.lmi.net>, <4E02752A.90600@mail.msu.edu> <4E0278E1.6020605@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E027EA5.2030205@mail.msu.edu> On 6/22/2011 4:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/22/11 7:05 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> >> (If anyone wants the code, I can send it your way...) > > Neat!! Hey, I'd love to hack around with that. I have an SX; will > it be ok on there? > > -Dave > Sure, it's up at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/hplisp now. Just grabbed it off of my HP-50G, I don't believe it uses anything specific to any particular HP-4x series (as far as I know, it should work on the 28 as well if you find yourself with time enough to type it in manually). 'EVALUATE' is the main entrypoint, pass it a list representing a lisp program. DEFUN, IF (named IFF so it doesn't collide with the RPN 'IF'), LET, LOOP (a very tiny subset), SET, and QUOTE (QUO for brevity's sake) are intrinsic. Josh From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 22 21:24:08 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 19:24:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 6/22/11 12:28 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > >>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >>> There are sevral (apocryphal) stories of students being told they can >>> 'bring Feynman to the exam' (meaning, of course, the 3 read books or >>> equivalent) and somebody turning up with the Porfessor himself. Fromwhat >>> I've read, I could well believe that Feynman would go along with such a >>> stunt :-) >>> >> After reading, "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" I would agree. :) >> >> g. > > > One of may favorite reads. A shame he passed before his time. Agreed. I'm a complete hamster when it comes to math, but I could listen to him talk for hours, even if I didn't half of what he was saying. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From jonas at otter.se Wed Jun 22 03:21:13 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2011 10:21:13 +0200 Subject: Interesting teletype/computer artifact... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <799f4c02714bc8942ad72f54b4704f56@otter.se> On Tue, 21 Jun 2011 12:26:38 -0400, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> If you are of a certain age and live in Britain you would know bog >> paper could be VERY strong. > > Dunno if it's the era you are referring to, but I spent the summer of > 1985 in Britain and remember the bog paper as being quite stout. I > can imagine it surviving the rollers and printhead of an ASR-33 (not > sure if it would have buckled enough to snag a dot matrix head or > not). > Izal Medicated :-) Does that stuff still exist? Designed to be as non-absorbent as possible. The difference between using that stuff and a piece of wood was not noticeable. It would probably work quite well as a replacement for roof slates. /Jonas From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 07:14:55 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 08:14:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question re: Lisa expansion cards Message-ID: I picked up a two-port parallel card for my Lisa 2/10. Unfortunately, it fails the POST diagnostics with error '92'. The system does correctly identify which slot it's in, FWIW. Does anyone know what the system firmware is poking around for? Is it asserting a checksum test on the card's EPROM? Checking for an interrupt response? The label covering the parallel card EPROM erase window is long gone, so I'm wondering if it was left in the sunlight and partially erased. Does anyone have an image of the EPROM? Steve -- From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jun 23 12:00:53 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 10:00:53 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gene Buckle > Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 7:24 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System > > On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > > > On 6/22/11 12:28 PM, "Gene Buckle" wrote: > > > >>> On Wed, 22 Jun 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > >>> > >>> There are sevral (apocryphal) stories of students being told they > >>> can 'bring Feynman to the exam' (meaning, of course, the 3 read > >>> books or > >>> equivalent) and somebody turning up with the Porfessor himself. > >>> Fromwhat I've read, I could well believe that Feynman would go > >>> along with such a stunt :-) > >>> > >> After reading, "Surely you're joking, Mr. Feynman!" I would agree. :) > >> > >> g. > > > > > > One of may favorite reads. A shame he passed before his time. > Agreed. I'm a complete hamster when it comes to math, but I could listen to > him talk for hours, even if I didn't half of what he was saying. > I too enjoyed Feynman's biographical books, as well as his Lectures on Physics. He also wrote about computation, another book I have in my collection. -- Ian From als at thangorodrim.de Thu Jun 23 14:05:14 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 21:05:14 +0200 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> <4DFF6660.31567.153A5D4@cclist.sydex.com> <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110623190514.GA24177@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 07:27:18PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Jun 2011 at 2:14, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > > I take it you've never used a 'graphing calculator'? The TI-82, TI-83, > > TI-85 and probably other models all do exactly what you describe, and > > have been selling 1 per high school student in the USA for some time > > now... > > No, when I was in high school, if you brought a calculator, it > probably meant something like a Victor Comptometer. > > In college, it was a slide rule, although I did know a rich kid with > a Curta. Wonder if that was the last advanced technical product to > come out of Liechtenstein... Well, Hilti (famous for making proper power tools for serious users) is a company from Liechtenstein. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jun 23 14:26:58 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:26:58 -0400 Subject: Question re: Lisa expansion cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E039382.4080306@arachelian.com> On 06/23/2011 08:14 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I picked up a two-port parallel card for my Lisa 2/10. Unfortunately, > it fails the POST diagnostics with error '92'. The system does > correctly identify which slot it's in, FWIW. > > Does anyone know what the system firmware is poking around for? Is it > asserting a checksum test on the card's EPROM? Checking for an > interrupt response? > > The label covering the parallel card EPROM erase window is long gone, > so I'm wondering if it was left in the sunlight and partially erased. > > Does anyone have an image of the EPROM? > > Steve > > That's a ROM checksum error. Do you see the ports in the boot menu? Even if the ROM is bad, as long as it's good enough to present the card ID to the Lisa, you might still be able to make use of the card. The ROM is really only used for booting. That and providing icons and an ID to the ROM and OS. So if the ID is still there, you'll likely still be able to use it under LOS/MW+ anyway. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Jun 23 14:29:43 2011 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:29:43 +0100 Subject: Determine installed memory - microVAX 3100 Model 20e. Message-ID: <6C28A544-6415-4A1C-AC06-EB60C675BF62@ozpass.co.uk> Hello all, How do I determine the installed memory in a microVAX 3100 Model 20e? The unit has no disk in it presently. It starts healthily though and talks to my VT420, although it doesn't seem to run many diagnostic tests compared to what I'm used to seeing on my 3100 model 90. It also doesn't report the amount of installed memory and SHOW CONFIG / SHOW MEM / T 9E produce "ILL COMMAND". Can anybody help? -Austin. Sent from my iPad From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 16:25:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 14:25:54 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <20110623190514.GA24177@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net>, <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110623190514.GA24177@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2011 at 21:05, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Well, Hilti (famous for making proper power tools for serious users) > is a company from Liechtenstein. Sure, that's where their headquarters are, but where are their products made? This forum seems to indicate that the point of origin is you-know-where: http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81458 Perhaps Harbor Freight could incorporate in San Marino... All the best, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 23 16:42:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:42:03 -0400 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net>, <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110623190514.GA24177@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E03B32B.4080004@neurotica.com> On 6/23/11 5:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Well, Hilti (famous for making proper power tools for serious users) >> is a company from Liechtenstein. > > Sure, that's where their headquarters are, but where are their > products made? This forum seems to indicate that the point of origin > is you-know-where: > > http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=81458 Welcome to America, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of China. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 16:46:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:46:41 -0400 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com> <20110623190514.GA24177@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Sure, that's where their headquarters are, but where are their > products made? ?This forum seems to indicate that the point of origin > is you-know-where: I have some Hilti gear, and some is from China, some is from Poland. Nice tools. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 16:52:58 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:52:58 -0400 Subject: Hilti Message-ID: > I have some Hilti gear, and some is from China, some is from Poland. And Slovakia. My very old Hilti hammer drill is from Western Germany. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 17:00:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 15:00:27 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net>, <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E03550B.29508.FC5346@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2011 at 17:46, William Donzelli wrote: > I have some Hilti gear, and some is from China, some is from Poland. > > Nice tools. ...and neither is a high-tech product out of Liechtenstein. In a way, it reminds me of what Fender is doing with their guitars. Cheap Far East junk clones of their made-in-the-USA gear in stores; real made-in-USA only for celebrities and rich collectors. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 17:16:47 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 18:16:47 -0400 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4E03550B.29508.FC5346@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net> <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> <4E03550B.29508.FC5346@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > ...and neither is a high-tech product out of Liechtenstein. There still are a few electronics manufacturers in the country. UV lamps for the medical industry, and high tech ceramics. So there. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 23 19:01:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 17:01:44 -0700 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net>, <4E03550B.29508.FC5346@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E037178.31100.16B5ADC@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jun 2011 at 18:16, William Donzelli wrote: > There still are a few electronics manufacturers in the country. UV > lamps for the medical industry, and high tech ceramics. So there. I think it's still interesting that if you search for the phrase "made in Liechtenstein", the Curta comes up several times in the top 10 returns; the remainder seems to be comprised of t-shirts and hoodies... --Chuck From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jun 23 19:05:09 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:05:09 -0400 Subject: Calculators Re: Useless thread, RE:Religion, Re: Nazi System 360/370 book... In-Reply-To: <4E03B32B.4080004@neurotica.com> References: <4DFE7F2D.3020606@attglobal.net>, <4DFF9F16.8055.2312DBE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110623190514.GA24177@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4E034CF2.28480.DCB037@cclist.sydex.com> <4E03B32B.4080004@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E03D4B5.9070603@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 06/23/2011 05:42 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Welcome to America, Inc., a wholly-owned subsidiary of China. That's hilarious! Ha ha ha ha ha ha LOL LOL LOL. Oh wait...... damn. BK -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQFOA9S1CFu3bIiwtTARArKPAJYoptKHXNzIk2dJWdmsllw3ZTs4AJ9kvgr5 RMhIOFhiW5FNyOEveTviIA== =Gc9I -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jun 23 19:50:46 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 20:50:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question re: Lisa expansion cards In-Reply-To: <4E039382.4080306@arachelian.com> References: <4E039382.4080306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 23 Jun 2011, Ray Arachelian wrote: > On 06/23/2011 08:14 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I picked up a two-port parallel card for my Lisa 2/10. Unfortunately, >> it fails the POST diagnostics with error '92'. The system does >> correctly identify which slot it's in, FWIW. >> >> Does anyone know what the system firmware is poking around for? Is it >> asserting a checksum test on the card's EPROM? Checking for an >> interrupt response? >> >> The label covering the parallel card EPROM erase window is long gone, >> so I'm wondering if it was left in the sunlight and partially erased. >> >> Does anyone have an image of the EPROM? > That's a ROM checksum error. Do you see the ports in the boot menu? > Even if the ROM is bad, as long as it's good enough to present the card > ID to the Lisa, you might still be able to make use of the card. The > ROM is really only used for booting. That and providing icons and an ID > to the ROM and OS. > > So if the ID is still there, you'll likely still be able to use it under > LOS/MW+ anyway. Thanks, Ray. I sort of suspected it was checking the ROM. After some digging, I found an image for the parport ROM on the web and blew another 2716. Presto! It now passes diagnostics and will happily boot a ProFile from the upper or lower port :-). The image that came on the card doesn't look at all like the working one. Is it possible it predated the 2/10 and may have been intended for use on a Lisa 1? Steve -- From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 00:50:18 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:50:18 -0500 Subject: Hilti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: most bizzar post ever whats hilti have to do with classic computers. On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > I have some Hilti gear, and some is from China, some is from Poland. > > And Slovakia. My very old Hilti hammer drill is from Western Germany. > > -- > Will > From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 23 18:40:05 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:40:05 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: TOPS-10 in a box... Message-ID: <01O2UBLS4QSY002NX9@beyondthepale.ie> Dave McGuire wrote: >On 6/21/11 6:25 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> For my final year engineering degree project, I co-wrote a Z80 simulator in >> somewhat pre-FORTRAN-77 to run on an IBM 4381 running MUSIC (under VM). The >> college planned to use this to teach students about microprocessors but I >> don't know if this was ever done. >> >> Not having much use for a Z80 simulator myself, I later rewrote it as a 6502 >> simulator and then converted the core of the simulator from FORTRAN to IBM 370 >> assembly and later still, VAX assembly. It can run the BASIC rom from the BBC >> Micro but not the OS rom. Instead some mainly text based OS functions are >> emulated/simulated directly. Software such as text based adventure games for >> the BBC Micro can be run on the simulator but anything relying on graphics, >> sound or trying to play directly with the hardware doesn't do so well. > > That sounds really, really cool. Do you still have the source code? > I do have the source code. I will gather it up and make it available. However, it's not pretty. (I am trying to change ISPs at the moment so bear with me if it takes a little time to get organised.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 23 18:48:07 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 00:48:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Determine installed memory - microVAX 3100 Model 20e. Message-ID: <01O2UC22804I002NX9@beyondthepale.ie> Austin Pass wrote: > >How do I determine the installed memory in a microVAX 3100 Model 20e? > >The unit has no disk in it presently. It starts healthily though and talks >to my VT420, although it doesn't seem to run many diagnostic tests compared >to what I'm used to seeing on my 3100 model 90. It also doesn't report the >amount of installed memory and SHOW CONFIG / SHOW MEM / T 9E produce >"ILL COMMAND". > I haven't come across a model 20e but I would have expected SHOW MEM to work. Try T 50 - hopefully there should be a number giving the memory size in hex just below the line starting with MEM. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From sieler at me.com Thu Jun 23 21:44:01 2011 From: sieler at me.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Thu, 23 Jun 2011 19:44:01 -0700 Subject: Free: HP 3000 Corporate Business System (12-way) in Cupertino Message-ID: Hi, I have an HP 3000 Corporate Business System (3000/996) with 12 CPUs and 1 to 2 GB of RAM, in 6' rack that I'd like to find a home for. It runs! The A/C power plug requires the weird hi-amp 3-prong outlet, not standard household 110. It's in Cupertino, CA, and is housed in a 6' rack (included). (Sadly, it qualifies as a classic, probably from about 1997.) If no home is found fairly quickly, it'll be scrapped, unfortunately. Stan From tim at hunkler.com Fri Jun 24 06:50:54 2011 From: tim at hunkler.com (Tim Hunkler) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 04:50:54 -0700 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's Message-ID: <201106241157.p5OBuuOv010218@billy.ezwind.net> Greetings, I have a friend that is looking for a DN4500 or DN5500. Unfortunately he is in the hospital right now. He had a serious case of spiral meningitis and has been unconscious for a week. The doctors are pulling him through!!! I'd like to keep in touch and maybe he will be interested in a month when he is recovered. He has a DN5500 that was fully intact, including a cartridge drive, but the clock battery leaked acid on the motherboard and it will no longer work. But the disk drive, RAM, cartridge tape, etc. all work. So making a binary image of the tapes seems possible. Both of us used to be Applications Engineers for Mentor Graphics :-) see: www.hunkler.com/aegis.htm Thanks, Tim Hunkler From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 24 09:21:54 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:21:54 +0200 Subject: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's In-Reply-To: <201106241157.p5OBuuOv010218@billy.ezwind.net> References: <201106241157.p5OBuuOv010218@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <000c01cc327a$154341f0$3fc9c5d0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Tim Hunkler > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 juni 2011 13:51 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: free for the cost of shipping : Apollo DN 4500 +extra's > > Greetings, > > I have a friend that is looking for a DN4500 or DN5500. > > Unfortunately he is in the hospital right now. He had a serious case of spiral > meningitis and has been unconscious for a week. The doctors are pulling him > through!!! > > I'd like to keep in touch and maybe he will be interested in a month when he is > recovered. > > He has a DN5500 that was fully intact, including a cartridge drive, but the clock > battery leaked acid on the motherboard and it will no longer work. But the disk > drive, RAM, cartridge tape, etc. all work. So making a binary image of the tapes > seems possible. > > Both of us used to be Applications Engineers for Mentor Graphics :-) > see: www.hunkler.com/aegis.htm > > > Thanks, > Tim Hunkler Hi Tim, The Apollo found a new home a few weeks ago. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 24 09:24:40 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:24:40 +0200 Subject: Hilti In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000d01cc327a$77ea1450$67be3cf0$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > Namens Adrian Stoness > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 juni 2011 7:50 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Hilti > > most bizzar post ever whats hilti have to do with classic computers. > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM, William Donzelli > wrote: > > > > I have some Hilti gear, and some is from China, some is from Poland. > > > > And Slovakia. My very old Hilti hammer drill is from Western Germany. > > > > -- > > Will > > You could use one to open up a cabinet ;-) Or to build a new basement for your classic gear... Or maybe it's designed with a classic computer... -Rik From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jun 24 11:10:53 2011 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:10:53 -0400 Subject: Question re: Lisa expansion cards In-Reply-To: References: <4E039382.4080306@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <4E04B70D.2040805@arachelian.com> On 06/23/2011 08:50 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > Thanks, Ray. I sort of suspected it was checking the ROM. After some > digging, I found an image for the parport ROM on the web and blew > another 2716. > > Presto! It now passes diagnostics and will happily boot a ProFile > from the upper or lower port :-). > > The image that came on the card doesn't look at all like the working > one. Is it possible it predated the 2/10 and may have been intended > for use on a Lisa 1? > I doubt it since the ROM checksum routines are the same for L1s as well as L2s. Most likely it was corrupted. If you really want to you get a binary of the image and look at it with a 68000 disassembler, or send it my way to do the same. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 12:03:20 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:03:20 -0500 Subject: Hilti In-Reply-To: <000d01cc327a$77ea1450$67be3cf0$@xs4all.nl> References: <000d01cc327a$77ea1450$67be3cf0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: lol why would i build a basement in a flood plain for my gear?? i would rather buy a cheap old whearhouse with a service elevator to keep it high and dry :D and have the ultimate geek pad :D On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 9:24 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > ] > > Namens Adrian Stoness > > Verzonden: vrijdag 24 juni 2011 7:50 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: Re: Hilti > > > > most bizzar post ever whats hilti have to do with classic computers. > > > > On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:52 PM, William Donzelli > > wrote: > > > > > > I have some Hilti gear, and some is from China, some is from Poland. > > > > > > And Slovakia. My very old Hilti hammer drill is from Western Germany. > > > > > > -- > > > Will > > > > > You could use one to open up a cabinet ;-) > Or to build a new basement for your classic gear... > Or maybe it's designed with a classic computer... > > -Rik > > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 24 13:25:18 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:25:18 -0700 Subject: Prototype Sphere I Message-ID: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> http://www.wix.com/hivalerie/sphere1#! Gen X website, beware! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 13:33:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:33:05 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.wix.com/hivalerie/sphere1#! Interesting. > Gen X website, beware! Thanks for the warning. I did not have a satisfactory user interface experience. Cool machine, though. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 24 13:36:01 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 11:36:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.wix.com/hivalerie/sphere1#! > > Gen X website, beware! Aaah! The goggles - they do nothing! It was on eBay for a while: http://cgi.ebay.com/290580400322 but got pulled. At least you can go there to look at some pictures of the machine without having to wade through Flash-land. -Ian From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:06:08 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:06:08 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Fri, 6/24/11, Al Kossow wrote: > > > http://www.wix.com/hivalerie/sphere1#! > > > > Gen X website, beware! > > Aaah! The goggles - they do nothing! > > As for the early microcomputers, I still prefer the Compucolor I (model 8001 or 8051) over that any day of the year. It was made the same year in '75, but this was a 8080 based system. The model 8051 also came with a 19" screen. They even had hi-res color graphics. Quite impressive for it's day as a microcomputer. I still remember seeing this at the Computer Mart store in NYC. From what I hear, this is hard to find. =Dan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 24 14:09:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:09:27 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> On 6/24/11 3:06 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: > As for the early microcomputers, I still prefer the Compucolor I (model 8001 > or 8051) over that any day of the year. It was made the same year in '75, > but this was a 8080 based system. The model 8051 also came with a 19" > screen. They even had hi-res color graphics. Quite impressive for it's day > as a microcomputer. I still remember seeing this at the Computer Mart store > in NYC. From what I hear, this is hard to find. I've never seen one in person, but it sounds pretty impressive. Any idea what the resolution and depth of the video subsystem was? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:26:21 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:26:21 -0400 Subject: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout from DEC teletype/line printer? In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 column paper,standard fanfold stuff printed out from DEC teletypes and line printers I'm wondering what the best way to scan this in would be, to get actual text outputthat's readable and usable ? In most cases there is no way even the best OCR could tell the difference betweenan "L", "l", "1" or "I", and "O" or "0" is just as bad. Hand-typing over 6" thick printout is not my idea of fun. Any bright ideas? there's one in particular I want to scan in and get documented, as there's an old-wives tale about the code I want to verify if it's true (it's an original 1970's printout of Zork in Fortran that is supposedly "auto-correcting" after a fashion)not that I buy it... Dan. From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:27:46 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:27:46 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I've never seen one in person, but it sounds pretty impressive. Any idea > what the resolution and depth of the video subsystem was? > > > Visiting the Computer Mart store was a weekly event :) I haven't seen many webpages with a bigger writeup on this other than the old-computer.com website. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=565 =Dan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 24 14:31:16 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:31:16 -0700 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9fc8e1ececec55da69dd8eca900a4446@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 24, at 12:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 6/24/11 3:06 PM, Dan Roganti wrote: >> As for the early microcomputers, I still prefer the Compucolor I >> (model 8001 >> or 8051) over that any day of the year. It was made the same year in >> '75, >> but this was a 8080 based system. The model 8051 also came with a 19" >> screen. They even had hi-res color graphics. Quite impressive for >> it's day >> as a microcomputer. I still remember seeing this at the Computer Mart >> store >> in NYC. From what I hear, this is hard to find. > > I've never seen one in person, but it sounds pretty impressive. Any > idea what the resolution and depth of the video subsystem was? > According to an ad in Kilobaud (Issue #5, May 77) the Compucolor 8001 had ".. 8080 CPU, 8 color CRT Terminal, 8K RAM Workspace, .. 48 Line * 80 Characters/Line, .. Graphics Mode with 160 * 192 Elements". Targeting their market, the screen in the ad displays a color graphic of the Star Trek Enterprise. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:34:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:34:55 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I (and this is when I flood the market) Message-ID: > http://www.wix.com/hivalerie/sphere1#! > > Gen X website, beware! Pretty much all Spheres were prototypes - NONE of them worked properly out of the box (or as a bag of parts), and they ALL had to spend time with a thick ECO list. They were crap, plain and simple. Interestingly, just a couple of days ago, I was informed that the last of my Sphere stuff has been found, and after ten plus years of hiding, is getting back in my hands. I should have enough parts to make at least two "complete" Spheres, plus maybe a third, and then have parts left over. We shall see. I will likely use them as trade bait, unless people want to part with their money. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jun 24 14:39:40 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:39:40 -0700 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <5ac4943bba2fad7096778c4e034dca31@cs.ubc.ca> I have to add, looking back at this May 77 issue of Kilobaud, it seems remarkable (remembering) how much the industry & market developed in the two years from the announcement of the Altair. That was a pretty big bandwagon. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 24 14:41:15 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 12:41:15 -0700 Subject: Prototype Sphere I (and this is when I flood the market) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E04E85B.4020200@bitsavers.org> On 6/24/11 12:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Interestingly, just a couple of days ago, I was informed that the last > of my Sphere stuff has been found, and after ten plus years of hiding, > is getting back in my hands. I should have enough parts to make at > least two "complete" Spheres, plus maybe a third, and then have parts > left over. We shall see. I will likely use them as trade bait, unless > people want to part with their money. > I have the contents of the Sphere User's group (about 100 cassettes) and a big pile of paper from the guy in LA that ran it. Would you be willing to dump the proms? From ragooman at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 14:45:05 2011 From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 15:45:05 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I In-Reply-To: <9fc8e1ececec55da69dd8eca900a4446@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E04E0E7.5080305@neurotica.com> <9fc8e1ececec55da69dd8eca900a4446@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 24, 2011 at 3:31 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > According to an ad in Kilobaud (Issue #5, May 77) the Compucolor 8001 had > ".. 8080 CPU, 8 color CRT Terminal, 8K RAM Workspace, .. 48 Line * 80 > Characters/Line, .. Graphics Mode with 160 * 192 Elements". > > Targeting their market, the screen in the ad displays a color graphic of > the Star Trek Enterprise. > > yep, it had 8 colors, but it was still impressive for it's day. They even made a CP/M version after that, also another model with an 8" floppy =Dan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 24 15:12:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 > column paper,standard fanfold stuff printed out from DEC teletypes and > line printers I'm wondering what the best way to scan this in would be, > to get actual text outputthat's readable and usable ? In most cases > there is no way even the best OCR could tell the difference betweenan > "L", "l", "1" or "I", and "O" or "0" is just as bad. Hand-typing over 6" > thick printout is not my idea of fun. Any bright ideas? there's one in > particular I want to scan in and get documented, as there's an old-wives > tale about the code I want to verify if it's true (it's an original > 1970's printout of Zork in Fortran that is supposedly "auto-correcting" > after a fashion)not that I buy it... It's an interesting task. The good news is that a LOT of disambiguation can be done by context. Such as, a letter between numerals, or a numeral between letters, are less probably than matching adjacent type. If it is FORTRAN listings, then there are a lot of algorithmically available repairs. For example, what characters can be in columns 1 - 5? If the previous card ^H^H^H^H line does not have a 'C' in column 1 nor any character in column 6, then what characters can be in column 7? Who cares what characters are in 73-80? The ideal best OCR software would have a probabilistic ranking, and start by querying the operator (with a graphics image of the page!) for those ambiguous characters with the lowest probability of certainty. A heuristic enhancement would then increase or decrease probability rankings for subsequent identical confusions based on what the operator's response had been. Through use of the heuristic enhancement capability, the OCR software could start with a reasonable font, but could even be started with NO prior font knowledge! Hire the neihbor kid to type whatever shows up in the graphics image on the screen; soon many characters would be matched successfully; eventually, characters requiring operator intervention would be extremely rare. Probabilistic ranking can do quite a bit if set up properly. For example, what characters would be most likely after a 'Q'? ('U', period, comma, or space) What are the most likely characters following a space? (Hint: AFTER A SPACE, it is NOT ETAOINSHRLDU) The OCR software can start with a substantial DB of fonts. But, with heuristic enhancement, it could even start with NO font DB! Hire the neighbor kid to type whatever show up in the graphics image on the scree; soon it will recognize a lot of the characters; eventually, it will recognize damn near all of them. After sufficient use, the only times operator intervention would be needed would be for damaged characters, ligatures, etc. These algorithms have been implemented on experimental bases. Is there any commercial software that does an adequate job? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 24 15:17:14 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:17:14 -0600 Subject: Prototype Sphere I (and this is when I flood the market) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > http://www.wix.com/hivalerie/sphere1#! > > > > Gen X website, beware! > > Pretty much all Spheres were prototypes - NONE of them worked properly > out of the box (or as a bag of parts), and they ALL had to spend time > with a thick ECO list. > > They were crap, plain and simple. Interesting. I had learned of this machine because of its local Utah connection. I even tracked down one of the original employees and had been meaning to do a phone interview with him. IIRC, when I contacted him he reported that he didn't have any original hardware anymore. The original designer has passed away a number of years ago. > Interestingly, just a couple of days ago, I was informed that the last > of my Sphere stuff has been found, and after ten plus years of hiding, > is getting back in my hands. I should have enough parts to make at > least two "complete" Spheres, plus maybe a third, and then have parts > left over. We shall see. I will likely use them as trade bait, unless > people want to part with their money. I have an interested because its connected to Utah, but I haven't been specifically looking for it. IIRC, it doesn't have any graphics out of the box. It has a summary entry in this book: Collectible Microcomputers http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0764316001/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=legaliadulth-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399369&creativeASIN=0764316001 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jun 24 15:20:35 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:20:35 -0600 Subject: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout from DEC teletype/line printer? In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: In article , Dan Gahlinger writes: > I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 > column paper ,standard fanfold stuff printed out from DEC teletypes and > line printers I'm wondering what the best way to scan this in would be, > to get actual text out putthat's readable and usable ? In most cases > there is no way even the best OCR could tell the difference betwee nan > "L", "l", "1" or "I", and "O" or "0" is just as bad. Hand-typing over 6" > thick printout is not my idea of fun. Any bright ideas? there's one > in particular I want to scan in and get documented, as there's an ol > d-wives tale about the code I want to verify if it's true (it's an > original 1970's printout of Zork in Fortran that is supposedly "auto-co > rrecting" after a fashion)not that I buy it... Dan. I would use a high resolution digital camera and a tripod and photograph each page. With the right orientation of the printout and the tripod you can photograph all the "odd" pages first and just flip through each pair of pages on the fanfold printout. Then reorient things and flip through all the "even" pages of the printout. A simple shell script will interleave the images back into their original order. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From shumaker at att.net Fri Jun 24 15:32:51 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:32:51 -0700 Subject: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout from DEC teletype/line printer? In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <4E04F473.6000505@att.net> I've had some fairly good results with a Fujitsu scanner that can handle the sheets sideways and then rotate the images automatically. Model is fi-4530c although there are newer versions. I got this one surplus in a sealed box about 6 months ago. Been scanning an entire office of documents with virtually no misfeeds.. It will take wide printer paper turned sideways. it has a setting to indicate the rotated orientation, it can do duplex color at 600dpi if needed and is designed so that critical feed rollers can be replaced by the user when pages start slipping.. nice unit! I have already scanned an entire file box of wide format printout without issue. steve On 6/24/2011 1:20 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Dan Gahlinger writes: > > >> I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 >> column paper ,standard fanfold stuff printed out from DEC teletypes and >> line printers I'm wondering what the best way to scan this in would be, >> to get actual text out putthat's readable and usable ? In most cases >> there is no way even the best OCR could tell the difference betwee nan >> "L", "l", "1" or "I", and "O" or "0" is just as bad. Hand-typing over 6" >> thick printout is not my idea of fun. Any bright ideas? there's one >> in particular I want to scan in and get documented, as there's an ol >> d-wives tale about the code I want to verify if it's true (it's an >> original 1970's printout of Zork in Fortran that is supposedly "auto-co >> rrecting" after a fashion)not that I buy it... Dan. >> > I would use a high resolution digital camera and a tripod and > photograph each page. With the right orientation of the printout and > the tripod you can photograph all the "odd" pages first and just flip > through each pair of pages on the fanfold printout. Then reorient > things and flip through all the "even" pages of the printout. A > simple shell script will interleave the images back into their > original order. > From shumaker at att.net Fri Jun 24 15:36:00 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:36:00 -0700 Subject: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout from DEC teletype/line printer? In-Reply-To: <4E04F473.6000505@att.net> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <4E04F473.6000505@att.net> Message-ID: <4E04F530.50609@att.net> the OCR is another matter entirely.... steve On 6/24/2011 1:32 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > I've had some fairly good results with a Fujitsu scanner that can > handle the sheets sideways and then rotate the images automatically. > Model is fi-4530c although there are newer versions. I got this one > surplus in a sealed box about 6 months ago. Been scanning an entire > office of documents with virtually no misfeeds.. > > It will take wide printer paper turned sideways. it has a setting to > indicate the rotated orientation, it can do duplex color at 600dpi if > needed and is designed so that critical feed rollers can be replaced > by the user when pages start slipping.. nice unit! I have already > scanned an entire file box of wide format printout without issue. > > steve > > > > > On 6/24/2011 1:20 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article, >> Dan Gahlinger writes: >> >>> I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 >>> column paper ,standard fanfold stuff printed out from DEC teletypes and >>> line printers I'm wondering what the best way to scan this in would be, >>> to get actual text out putthat's readable and usable ? In most cases >>> there is no way even the best OCR could tell the difference betwee nan >>> "L", "l", "1" or "I", and "O" or "0" is just as bad. Hand-typing >>> over 6" >>> thick printout is not my idea of fun. Any bright ideas? there's one >>> in particular I want to scan in and get documented, as there's an ol >>> d-wives tale about the code I want to verify if it's true (it's an >>> original 1970's printout of Zork in Fortran that is supposedly "auto-co >>> rrecting" after a fashion)not that I buy it... Dan. >> I would use a high resolution digital camera and a tripod and >> photograph each page. With the right orientation of the printout and >> the tripod you can photograph all the "odd" pages first and just flip >> through each pair of pages on the fanfold printout. Then reorient >> things and flip through all the "even" pages of the printout. A >> simple shell script will interleave the images back into their >> original order. > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 24 15:37:44 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:37:44 -0400 Subject: Prototype Sphere I (and this is when I flood the market) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E04F598.8030207@neurotica.com> On 6/24/11 3:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Pretty much all Spheres were prototypes - NONE of them worked properly > out of the box (or as a bag of parts), and they ALL had to spend time > with a thick ECO list. > > They were crap, plain and simple. Yeah, but you say that about everything! ;) > Interestingly, just a couple of days ago, I was informed that the last > of my Sphere stuff has been found, and after ten plus years of hiding, > is getting back in my hands. I should have enough parts to make at > least two "complete" Spheres, plus maybe a third, and then have parts > left over. We shall see. I will likely use them as trade bait, unless > people want to part with their money. Neat!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From sieler at me.com Fri Jun 24 16:19:57 2011 From: sieler at me.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 14:19:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 5110 available, somewhere Message-ID: <7096A026-7EE5-49F7-AEF9-0384C9406903@me.com> Hi, Someone (Floyd) emailed me saying: > I have an IBM 5110 that was traded to me in 1979 for a BASIC programming > job at a local route vending company. It worked last time I used it, > (1984?) and has been stored in a closet wrapped in blankets for years. I > am not sure if it works, as a computer tech friend recommended not > plugging it in until it is checked out. Is this something you would be > interested in? I declined, and offered to post here ... Floyd said ok. His email is floydvincent at verizon.net. I don't know his location, price, or anything other than the above. thanks, Stan From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 18:29:55 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:29:55 -0500 Subject: off topic TEK 565 RM duel beam scope---- off topic Message-ID: I was at a local scrapper talking about copper, and saw a a tek 565-RM. had 1/2 the slides, was stored indoors, and I didn't see it last week when dropping off batteries, so it could be fresh from the U of I. He wants $100 for it ( seems high to me) and it weights about 75#s. If anyone wants it, I can get it, and possibly box it. Shipping would be expensive, unless you are close or someone in doing a road trip. I can store it for a few months. . I also have a box up plug in's for these, maybe 10-12. If anyone wants, I can did them out and make up a list. I used to have a few 555's, but I do like the new smaller units Located close to Champaign, IL 61853 Thanks, Paul From shumaker at att.net Fri Jun 24 18:35:01 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 16:35:01 -0700 Subject: Microvax 3400 in IL free for the taking In-Reply-To: <4E04F598.8030207@neurotica.com> References: <4E04F598.8030207@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E051F25.2080709@att.net> spotted: Microvax 3400 system on CraigsList in Evanston, IL. FREE to a good home.. condition/innards unknown but apparently still available http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/sys/2447914128.html anyone close that could check this out? steve From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 24 18:57:21 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:57:21 -0400 Subject: Microvax 3400 in IL free for the taking In-Reply-To: <4E051F25.2080709@att.net> References: <4E04F598.8030207@neurotica.com> <4E051F25.2080709@att.net> Message-ID: <4E052461.8020109@neurotica.com> On 6/24/11 7:35 PM, steve shumaker wrote: > spotted: Microvax 3400 system on CraigsList in Evanston, IL. FREE to a > good home.. > condition/innards unknown but apparently still available > > http://chicago.craigslist.org/nch/sys/2447914128.html > > anyone close that could check this out? I have a friend in that area that is going to contact them shortly. He's been looking for a small MicroVAX-III-class system for a long time. I hope he gets it. Thanks for the heads-up! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 19:59:40 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 20:59:40 -0400 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: But what of "COMMON" statements in Fortran? Is it COMMON "III" or "LLL" or "L1L" or "LIL" or "ILL" or...well you see what I mean... and stuff like if (A = O) was that the variable "O" or the number 0 ?yes I know that's not a proper fortran if... but you get the idea even typing by hand reading by eye can be really hard, as some others would attest. check the sourceforge project TREK7 for some ideas. PS - if ANYONE can help me finish trek7 by writing up terminal assigments in Fortan for Linux,Please let me know - I want to get the multiplayer going.but you can't really do assign(file/read '/dev/pts/7') or something to read/write another users STDIN/STDOUT in linux...or can you? I forgot more fortran than I ever learned... I can't code it any more :( Dan. > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 13:12:41 -0700 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout > > On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 > > column paper,standard fanfold stuff printed out from DEC teletypes and > > line printers I'm wondering what the best way to scan this in would be, > > to get actual text outputthat's readable and usable ? In most cases > > there is no way even the best OCR could tell the difference betweenan > > "L", "l", "1" or "I", and "O" or "0" is just as bad. Hand-typing over 6" > > thick printout is not my idea of fun. Any bright ideas? there's one in > > particular I want to scan in and get documented, as there's an old-wives > > tale about the code I want to verify if it's true (it's an original > > 1970's printout of Zork in Fortran that is supposedly "auto-correcting" > > after a fashion)not that I buy it... > > It's an interesting task. The good news is that a LOT of disambiguation > can be done by context. Such as, a letter between numerals, or a numeral > between letters, are less probably than matching adjacent type. > > If it is FORTRAN listings, then there are a lot of algorithmically > available repairs. For example, what characters can be in columns 1 - 5? > If the previous card ^H^H^H^H line does not have a 'C' in column 1 nor any > character in column 6, then what characters can be in column 7? > Who cares what characters are in 73-80? > > > The ideal best OCR software would have a probabilistic ranking, and start > by querying the operator (with a graphics image of the page!) for those > ambiguous characters with the lowest probability of certainty. > > A heuristic enhancement would then increase or decrease probability > rankings for subsequent identical confusions based on what the operator's > response had been. > > Through use of the heuristic enhancement capability, the OCR software > could start with a reasonable font, but could even be started with NO > prior font knowledge! Hire the neihbor kid to type whatever shows up in > the graphics image on the screen; soon many characters would be matched > successfully; eventually, characters requiring operator intervention would > be extremely rare. > > Probabilistic ranking can do quite a bit if set up properly. For example, > what characters would be most likely after a 'Q'? ('U', period, comma, or > space) What are the most likely characters following a space? (Hint: > AFTER A SPACE, it is NOT ETAOINSHRLDU) > > The OCR software can start with a substantial DB of fonts. > > But, with heuristic enhancement, it could even start with NO font DB! > Hire the neighbor kid to type whatever show up in the graphics image on > the scree; soon it will recognize a lot of the characters; eventually, it > will recognize damn near all of them. After sufficient use, the only > times operator intervention would be needed would be for damaged > characters, ligatures, etc. > > > These algorithms have been implemented on experimental bases. > Is there any commercial software that does an adequate job? > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 24 20:11:48 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 18:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110624180539.C34614@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > But what of "COMMON" statements in Fortran? Is it COMMON "III" or "LLL" > or "L1L" or "LIL" or "ILL" or...well you see what I mean... and stuff > like if (A = O) was that the variable "O" or the number 0 ?yes I know > that's not a proper fortran if... but you get the idea even typing by > hand reading by eye can be really hard, as some others would attest. "Unsupervised" OCR is impossible for anything without significant linguistic context. The purpose of pobabilistic recognition, heuristic enhancement, and any other context sensitivity is to REDUCE the amount of operator participation necessary, not to claim to eliminate it. Anybody who expects otherwise is an idiot. > check the sourceforge project TREK7 for some ideas. PS - if ANYONE can > help me finish trek7 by writing up terminal assigments in Fortan for > Linux,Please let me know - I want to get the multiplayer going.but you > can't really do assign(file/read '/dev/pts/7') or something to > read/write another users STDIN/STDOUT in linux...or can you? I forgot > more fortran than I ever learned... I can't code it any more :( Dan. We've all lost most of our FORTRAN expertise. And those who STARTED with FORTRAN77 may not have ever fully mastered FORMAT statements. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 24 21:11:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:11:59 -0700 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jun 2011 at 20:59, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I forgot more fortran than I ever learned... I > can't code it any more I don't think I could ever forget how--I spent too much of my life working on FORTRAN compilers. I got the DEC PDP-10 source code for Adventure from a DEC field engineer about 1974-75 on a reel of 9-track tape (don't laugh--we were still heavily into 7-track). I was surprised to see that it was text packed into binary form--3 7-bit ASCII characters per 36-bit word (you'd have thought that if it was character data, it'd be one character per tape character); converted it to 6 bit display code and unraveled the DEC-10-specific FORTRAN constructs into their CDC 6000 versions (harder than you'd think, particularly with Hollerith constants); transformed the database to be readable by 6000-series FORTRAN I/O and I was off and running. You have no idea how much company computer time was wasted on that thing. The COMSOURCE admins used to conduct sweeps of employee permanent files and purge every copy they could find. So, if this is anything like that DEC 10 version, I can probably lend a hand... --Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jun 24 21:14:47 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 22:14:47 -0400 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, , , <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: yep, I remember those days,I cut my teeth on fortran on a PDP-11 back in the mid-70s,then onto vax I'm responsible for some of the stuff in the old version of "fortune" for the vax (sigh)... anyhow, it'd be much appreciated... Dan. > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:11:59 -0700 > Subject: RE: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout > > On 24 Jun 2011 at 20:59, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > I forgot more fortran than I ever learned... I > > can't code it any more > > I don't think I could ever forget how--I spent too much of my life > working on FORTRAN compilers. > > I got the DEC PDP-10 source code for Adventure from a DEC field > engineer about 1974-75 on a reel of 9-track tape (don't laugh--we > were still heavily into 7-track). I was surprised to see that it was > text packed into binary form--3 7-bit ASCII characters per 36-bit > word (you'd have thought that if it was character data, it'd be one > character per tape character); converted it to 6 bit display code and > unraveled the DEC-10-specific FORTRAN constructs into their CDC 6000 > versions (harder than you'd think, particularly with Hollerith > constants); transformed the database to be readable by 6000-series > FORTRAN I/O and I was off and running. > > You have no idea how much company computer time was wasted on that > thing. The COMSOURCE admins used to conduct sweeps of employee > permanent files and purge every copy they could find. > > So, if this is anything like that DEC 10 version, I can probably > lend a hand... > > --Chuck > From waltsfo at gmail.com Fri Jun 24 23:27:41 2011 From: waltsfo at gmail.com (walter park) Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 21:27:41 -0700 Subject: TOPS-10 in a box Message-ID: "I do have the source code. I will gather it up and make it available. However, it's not pretty." I'm interested. That certainly ties together several fascinating threads of 'classic' computing. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 25 13:06:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:06:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Prototype Sphere I (and this is when I flood the market) In-Reply-To: <4E04F598.8030207@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 24, 11 04:37:44 pm Message-ID: > > On 6/24/11 3:34 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Pretty much all Spheres were prototypes - NONE of them worked properly > > out of the box (or as a bag of parts), and they ALL had to spend time > > with a thick ECO list. > > > > They were crap, plain and simple. \\Perhaps youcould list the (vrey few) classic computers that you actually approve of. > > Yeah, but you say that about everything! ;) I learnt, on about the second day of existance of this list, that saying a particular machine [1] was 'crap' with no more explation was a waste of time and liabl to start long-running flamewars. Saying that a machine was crap, or poorly designed, or... _because_ it had race hazards everywhere, or the power supply was margine, or it was liable to overheat, or the backplane connectors were prone to developing poor contacts, or that active-high edge-triggered interrupts are insane, or ... can create a sensibel discussion. And of course what one person considers 'crap' might well be an interesting, if marginal, design to somebody else. [1] I made the big mistake of criticising a machine that has a fanaticval followijng. Suffice it to say that it's 6502-based, dates from the late-ish 1970s, and has colour graphics. I sitll don't like the video system., the I/O system, the disk controller, the marginal PSU, etc, but... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 25 13:13:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:13:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: off topic TEK 565 RM duel beam scope---- off topic In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Jun 24, 11 06:29:55 pm Message-ID: > > I was at a local scrapper talking about copper, and saw a a tek > 565-RM. had 1/2 the slides, was stored indoors, and I didn't see it > last week when dropping off batteries, so it could be fresh from the U > of I. He wants $100 for it ( seems high to me) and it weights about > 75#s. If anyone wants it, I can get it, and possibly box it. Shipping > would be expensive, unless you are close or someone in doing a road > trip. I can store it for a few months. . I also have a box up plug > in's for these, maybe 10-12. If anyone wants, I can did them out and > make up a list. I used to have a few 555's, but I do like the new > smaller units Be warned that the plug-ins for the 560-series 'scopes are not the same as for the 530/540/550 series and there are adapters to use the 'wrong' plug-ins.. So if you're looking for a ;'scope to use that 1S1 or whatever that you've found, this is not the one for you. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 25 14:53:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 20:53:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 In-Reply-To: <20110624180539.C34614@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 24, 11 06:11:48 pm Message-ID: > We've all lost most of our FORTRAN expertise. And those who STARTED with > FORTRAN77 may not have ever fully mastered FORMAT statements. I am probably one of the few people (only person?) to get a Ph.D. in particle physics without writing a single line of FORTRAN... -tony From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jun 25 19:27:37 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:27:37 -0500 Subject: LK250 keyboard cable pinout? Message-ID: <20110626002736.GQ12525@n0jcf.net> Does anyone have the pinout for the cable that goes from a DEC LK250 keyboard to an AT DIN or PS/2 keyboard plug? I've got an LK250 that is missing the cable. There's a 6-pin modular jack (standard not MMJ) on the keyboard and I presume the missing cable has a mating modular plug on one end and a DIN or PS/2 plug on the other. I can make one if I can find the pinout... Chris -- Chris Elmquist From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sat Jun 25 21:19:20 2011 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:19:20 -0700 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330581357497&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT Personally I think this is a bit overpriced; I wouldn't pay more than $25K for a VT05 :-) From evan at snarc.net Sat Jun 25 21:33:45 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 22:33:45 -0400 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> References: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4E069A89.5090809@snarc.net> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330581357497&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT > > > Personally I think this is a bit overpriced; I wouldn't pay more than > $25K for a VT05 :-) Ha .... it says, "Could be the ONLY WORKING ONE IN THE WORLD." And the seller still thinks the Boston Computer Museum is in business near him. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 25 21:55:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 19:55:27 -0700 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> References: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> Don North wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330581357497&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT > > > Personally I think this is a bit overpriced; I wouldn't pay more than > $25K for a VT05 :-) > > It's most definitely not the only working one in the world, since I have a working one. If anyone wants to post that as a "question" on that auction, feel free. If I didn't have one, and really really really wanted one, I could maybe see paying $1500-2K for one. From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jun 26 04:42:37 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:42:37 +0200 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> References: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: The only comment to put in 'Ask seller a question' would be: Wah, ah, ah, ah.... Sergio 2011/6/26 Eric Smith > Don North wrote: > >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/**eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=** >> 330581357497&ssPageName=STRK:**MEWAX:IT >> >> Personally I think this is a bit overpriced; I wouldn't pay more than $25K >> for a VT05 :-) >> >> >> > It's most definitely not the only working one in the world, since I have a > working one. If anyone wants to post that as a "question" on that auction, > feel free. > > If I didn't have one, and really really really wanted one, I could maybe > see paying $1500-2K for one. > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 26 10:23:15 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 08:23:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1309101795.86022.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 6/25/11, Eric Smith wrote: > From: Eric Smith > Subject: Re: At least the shipping is free ... > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, June 25, 2011, 10:55 PM > Don North wrote: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330581357497&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT > > > > > Personally I think this is a bit overpriced; I > wouldn't pay more than $25K for a VT05 :-) > > > > > > It's most definitely not the only working one in the world, > since I have a working one.? If anyone wants to post > that as a "question" on that auction, feel free. I don't know what's funnier - the fact he's trying to sell the terminal for $250k, or the fact that he can't even be bothered to take a picture of it, and has to take one from the vt100.net (which, I believe came from some DEC marketing stuff originally). See, I don't know what possesses people to post auctions like this. It sure seems like a scam of some kind (the account hasn't been used in over a year, etc), but at the same time... if you're going to scam something, you'd think you'd post something (at some price) that someone, somewhere, is liable to purchase... -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 10:43:10 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 11:43:10 -0400 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <1309101795.86022.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> <1309101795.86022.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > See, I don't know what possesses people to post auctions like this. It is called marketing. So has anyone else on this list asked him what he really wants to sell it for, off Ebay? -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 26 11:49:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:49:56 -0600 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> References: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4E069F9F.40800 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > If I didn't have [a VT05], and really really really wanted one, I could maybe > see paying $1500-2K for one. I don't have one and would really like one, but I'm not willing to pay that much for one to be honest. As a terminal collector, there's a lot more I could do for my collection with $2K than spend it on one terminal. Even rarer terminals than the VT05 don't sell for that much on ebay. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 26 12:11:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 18:11:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: LK250 keyboard cable pinout?t In-Reply-To: <20110626002736.GQ12525@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 25, 11 07:27:37 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have the pinout for the cable that goes from a DEC LK250 > keyboard to an AT DIN or PS/2 keyboard plug? > > I've got an LK250 that is missing the cable. There's a 6-pin modular > jack (standard not MMJ) on the keyboard and I presume the missing cable > has a mating modular plug on one end and a DIN or PS/2 plug on the other. > > I can make one if I can find the pinout... I don't have the pinout [1] but if nobody repsonds, it whoud lbe possible to work it out. The PS/2 and AT keyboard interface uses 4 signals -- +5V, ground, clock, data. The last 2 are bidirectional data lines, open-collector driven. If you can recognise any IC in the keyboard you should be able to trace the connections (using an ohmmeter) back to the 6p6c (or 6p4c, whatever...) socket to identify the power and ground pins. Assuming you can then find 2 other pins that are the logic signals, it's safe to try those both ways round until you get a keyboard that's recognised by the PC. [1] I think I do have an LK250 somewhere, but it will take soem time to find it... -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jun 26 14:56:36 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 20:56:36 +0100 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: References: <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> <1309101795.86022.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E078EF4.7050601@philpem.me.uk> On 26/06/11 16:43, William Donzelli wrote: >> See, I don't know what possesses people to post auctions like this. > > It is called marketing. > > So has anyone else on this list asked him what he really wants to sell > it for, off Ebay? I wonder how much PR I could drum up if I listed a couple of DiscFerrets for a couple of thousand quid each.... *GRIN* -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 26 15:38:34 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 13:38:34 -0700 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: References: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4E0798CA.7010708@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > If I didn't have [a VT05], and really really really wanted one, I could maybe > see paying $1500-2K for one. Richard wrote: > I don't have one and would really like one, but I'm not willing to pay > that much for one to be honest. As a terminal collector, there's a > lot more I could do for my collection with $2K than spend it on one > terminal. Even rarer terminals than the VT05 don't sell for that much > on ebay. Well, you "would really like one", but obviously you don't "really really really want one". If I wanted to collect terminals, some that I'd want would be: CDC Plato IV terminal IBM 2250 (any model) IBM 2741 Lear Siegler ADM3 (not 3A) Sanders Associates (any model, but especially the CRT display models) SRI NLS terminal Tektronix 4010, 4012, or 4014 Teleray 1061 Teletype Model 37 Teletype Model 38 From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Jun 26 15:51:15 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 21:51:15 +0100 Subject: LK250 keyboard cable pinout?t In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E079BC3.6020409@wickensonline.co.uk> On 26/06/11 18:11, Tony Duell wrote: >> Does anyone have the pinout for the cable that goes from a DEC LK250 >> keyboard to an AT DIN or PS/2 keyboard plug? >> >> I've got an LK250 that is missing the cable. There's a 6-pin modular >> jack (standard not MMJ) on the keyboard and I presume the missing cable >> has a mating modular plug on one end and a DIN or PS/2 plug on the other. >> >> I can make one if I can find the pinout... > I don't have the pinout [1] but if nobody repsonds, it whoud lbe possible > to work it out. > > The PS/2 and AT keyboard interface uses 4 signals -- +5V, ground, clock, > data. The last 2 are bidirectional data lines, open-collector driven. > > If you can recognise any IC in the keyboard you should be able to trace > the connections (using an ohmmeter) back to the 6p6c (or 6p4c, > whatever...) socket to identify the power and ground pins. Assuming you > can then find 2 other pins that are the logic signals, it's safe to try > those both ways round until you get a keyboard that's recognised by the PC. > > [1] I think I do have an LK250 somewhere, but it will take soem time to > find it... > > -tony I have an LK250 and can easily buzz the cable - please email me privately when you get this and I'll sort it out for you. Regards, Mark. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Jun 26 17:11:17 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:11:17 +1200 Subject: Sorcerer BASIC ROM-PAC ROM replacements References: <4DFFDC1D.60506@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <411031F12A344F659BC79781DD2685CE@massey.ac.nz> > More than once, actually :-) It's a not-uncommon fault, and I've fixed a > few Sorcerers. I've written up the project thus far, for those who might be interested. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-06-25-sorcerer-rom-pac-fix-part-1.htm I'm just hoping that I can get this Willem to burn the 27C16s properly. I've got to wait for my UV eraser to arrive though to try again. Terry (Tez) From leaknoil at gmail.com Sun Jun 26 23:34:14 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 21:34:14 -0700 Subject: Free: HP 3000 Corporate Business System (12-way) in Cupertino In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E080846.1030008@gmail.com> Did you find a home for this ? I can let some friends know if not. They love the hp gear. On 6/23/2011 7:44 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: > Hi, > > I have an HP 3000 Corporate Business System (3000/996) with 12 CPUs > and 1 to 2 GB of RAM, in 6' rack that I'd like to find a home for. > > It runs! The A/C power plug requires the weird hi-amp 3-prong outlet, not standard household 110. > > It's in Cupertino, CA, and is housed in a 6' rack (included). > > (Sadly, it qualifies as a classic, probably from about 1997.) > > If no home is found fairly quickly, it'll be scrapped, unfortunately. > > Stan > From jcdrisc at tpg.com.au Sun Jun 26 17:54:26 2011 From: jcdrisc at tpg.com.au (jcdrisc at tpg.com.au) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:54:26 +1000 Subject: Heath E-400 data Message-ID: <1309128866.4e07b8a23af85@postoffice.tpg.com.au> Hello The enquiry is about the Heath analog computer ES-400 Can you make available copies of any of the documentation ? thanks Julian C Driscoll Manager DSCAPE Melbourne Australia From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 07:35:47 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:35:47 -0400 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, , , <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Hey Chuck, send me an email off-list Vax fortran in the 70s was kind of an interesting time,some of it was Fortran-IV, some of it was Fortran-77I don't remember any of the things that makes those different or how to distinguish them. I have some code from that time that would compile "back in the day",but that same exact piece of code will NOT compile on vms 7.x with the compaq compiler. It's almost like I need to have a system running vms 4.2 with the fortran of the time to get it to work.I have to assume the resulting binary would work on modern systems? I have some classic game source code from the time I want to get back online and in the archives Fred - I have a 16.2MP Sony digital camera I could use for "scanning" but doing that with a printoutthat is 6" thick will take an obscenely long amount of time. I don't want to separate the pages, I have this massive fear that as soon as I do, they will get out of order... Dan. > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 24 Jun 2011 19:11:59 -0700 > Subject: RE: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout > > On 24 Jun 2011 at 20:59, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > I forgot more fortran than I ever learned... I > > can't code it any more > > I don't think I could ever forget how--I spent too much of my life > working on FORTRAN compilers. > > I got the DEC PDP-10 source code for Adventure from a DEC field > engineer about 1974-75 on a reel of 9-track tape (don't laugh--we > were still heavily into 7-track). I was surprised to see that it was > text packed into binary form--3 7-bit ASCII characters per 36-bit > word (you'd have thought that if it was character data, it'd be one > character per tape character); converted it to 6 bit display code and > unraveled the DEC-10-specific FORTRAN constructs into their CDC 6000 > versions (harder than you'd think, particularly with Hollerith > constants); transformed the database to be readable by 6000-series > FORTRAN I/O and I was off and running. > > You have no idea how much company computer time was wasted on that > thing. The COMSOURCE admins used to conduct sweeps of employee > permanent files and purge every copy they could find. > > So, if this is anything like that DEC 10 version, I can probably > lend a hand... > > --Chuck > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Jun 27 08:14:17 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 09:14:17 -0400 Subject: Q-bus replacement systems pdp-11 In-Reply-To: <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> References: <20110616205509.GA737@night.db.net> <20110617014257.GV2435@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4E088229.6020100@compsys.to> >Chris Elmquist wrote: >On Thursday (06/16/2011 at 04:55PM -0400), Diane Bruce wrote: > > >>You lot seen this? >> >>http://www.transduction.com/pdf/NuPDPq_brochure_Transduction.pdf >> >> > >Interesting. The CCI1016 (DHV11, DZQ11, DHQ11 replacement) looks like >a Comtrol RocketPort... which is a 16-port PCI multiport serial card >I helped develop back in '94. It appears as though they have put some >kind of LSI-11 on PCI bus and are then using a mix of off-the-shelf and >custom PCI adapters for the various peripherals. > >Maybe the CPUs are actually a PC running an emulator?? > For those of you who might be interested, I contacted Transduction followed by The Logical Company who seems to be responsible for the actual NuPDQ-1000 Qbus board. I have been able to confirm that an emulator is running an Intel chip, probably at least a core 2 duo, although I am not very clear about any of the other details. In addition, it seems highly probable that rather than a VT100 (or other serial terminal) connected as the console device, the emulator application program also supports a PC VGA/keyboard port which can be used instead of the serial line at CSR=177560 to a VT100. In short, the NuPDQ-1000 Qbus board (with the hardware to emulate a PDP-11) seems to serve as a direct Qbus interface to a Qbus backplane which is also available. This directly supports any Qbus hardware which has not been supported (emulated) by the emulator / hardware combinations that are available. If there is any additional interest and response to my information, I will continue to add additional information as it becomes available. In particular, I would be extremely interested in how the emulator code is supported, or more specifically the source of that code. The answer to this question would answer almost every other question. What I am really confused about is how this new development is justified (i.e. cost effective). Are there that many PDP-11 Qbus systems out there performing non-critical applications which are more cost effective to continue to run the PDP-11 software? I had thought that by this time, most of these systems had found other solutions to continue to run. In particular, Strobe Data offers a hardware solution and emulators offer a software solution. The NuPDQ-1000 seems to combine both, but at a much higher cost. I don't yet have a price on the actual NuPDQ-1000 board. Jerome Fine From chrise at pobox.com Mon Jun 27 08:36:15 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:36:15 -0500 Subject: LK250 keyboard cable pinout In-Reply-To: <4E079BC3.6020409@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4E079BC3.6020409@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20110627133615.GC24351@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (06/26/2011 at 09:51PM +0100), Mark Wickens wrote: > I have an LK250 and can easily buzz the cable - please email me > privately when you get this and I'll sort it out for you. And Mark did this so I have what I need. Thanks! Chris -- Chris Elmquist From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 27 09:29:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 08:29:11 -0600 Subject: At least the shipping is free ... In-Reply-To: <4E0798CA.7010708@brouhaha.com> References: <4E069728.9060506@mindspring.com> <4E069F9F.40800@brouhaha.com> <4E0798CA.7010708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <4E0798CA.7010708 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > If I wanted to collect terminals, some that I'd want would be: > CDC Plato IV terminal > IBM 2250 (any model) > IBM 2741 > Lear Siegler ADM3 (not 3A) > Sanders Associates (any model, but especially the CRT display models) > SRI NLS terminal > Tektronix 4010, 4012, or 4014 > Teleray 1061 > Teletype Model 37 > Teletype Model 38 $2K would by several if not half of that list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 27 10:32:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:32:17 -0400 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, , , <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E08A281.9060901@neurotica.com> On 6/27/11 8:35 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Vax fortran in the 70s was kind of an interesting time,some of it was > Fortran-IV, some of it was Fortran-77I don't remember any of the > things that makes those different or how to distinguish them. I have > some code from that time that would compile "back in the day",but > that same exact piece of code will NOT compile on vms 7.x with the > compaq compiler. It's almost like I need to have a system running vms > 4.2 with the fortran of the time to get it to work. I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but have you investigated compatibility-related command line options for the F77 compiler? > I have to assume > the resulting binary would work on modern systems? I have some > classic game source code from the time I want to get back online and > in the archives Cross-release binary compatibility is generally pretty good in VMS; I'd say it's worth a try. For that matter, I'd expect the old compilers themselves to run as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 27 10:42:51 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 09:42:51 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader, 4912 cassette drive Message-ID: Has anyone ever seen either of these? They're introduced in the Tektronix catalog for 1973, pg. 277. I cannot find pictures of either of these peripherals in any catalog. The cassette drive appeared in only the 1973 catalog and the tape punch/reader appeared for only three years. Prices: 4911 4912 1973 $2950 $1950 1974 $2950 1975 $3295 I've collated together all the graphics/terminal products from the various Tektronix catalogs together into a single PDF file: This includes the storage scope displays and related equipment, but omits all the oscilloscope, test equipment and microprocessor development system stuff. It does include the workstations, however. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 10:43:31 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:43:31 -0400 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <4E08A281.9060901@neurotica.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, ,,<20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4E08A281.9060901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I thought about it, but as I mentioned I don't know the difference between Fortran-IV and Fortran-77,so which options do I use? I've had some "Fortran people" tell me the code is Fortran-IV and others tell me it's Fortran-77...not to mention weird "vax-isms" in Fortran of the time period. I have a stack of vaxen sitting here (vaxstation-3000/m76) so I can get at least one running vms 4.2with the old fortran and put the code exactly the way it was at the time and see what happens. or if I'm real lazy I'll setup vms 4.2 on simh and do the same thing :) Dan. > Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:32:17 -0400 > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > To: > Subject: Re: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout > I'm sorry if this is a stupid question, but have you investigated > compatibility-related command line options for the F77 compiler? > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 27 11:26:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 09:26:34 -0700 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E084CCA.4412.2ABC9C@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2011 at 8:35, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Vax fortran in the 70s was kind of an interesting time,some of it was > Fortran-IV, some of it was Fortran-77. This was a big bone of contention with X3J3 when Fortran 8x (became Fortran 90 because of some of the donnybrooks--it was supposed to have been Fortran-88). Is the role of the ANSI working group to invent language or to certify vendors' extensions to the language? Should X3J3 prohibit the addition of extensions if a vendor wanted to claim ANSI conformance? What should the compiler default be? (CODASYL had gone through the same with COBOL 75 and got to be pretty draconian about extensions to the "standard". But then COBOL was a real mess before 75). Both IBM and DEC tried to throw their weight around by threatening to withdraw from X3J3 on some of these issues. So those dialects based on FORTRAN 66 and FORTRAN II could be wildly different. A vendor was supposed to be able to support at a minim something called "USA Basic FORTRAN", which was a very small subset (no logical IF statements, etc.) to claim conformance. But extensions abounded, at least one of which lent itself to ambiguous interpretation--and they were all different--even among compilers from the same vendor. N.B. It's "FORTRAN-77", but "Fortran-90" or "FORTRAN-90". --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 27 12:02:18 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:02:18 -0400 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, , , , , <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com>, , <4E08A281.9060901@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E08B79A.3000502@neurotica.com> On 6/27/11 11:43 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I thought about it, but as I mentioned I don't know the difference > between Fortran-IV and Fortran-77,so which options do I use? I've had > some "Fortran people" tell me the code is Fortran-IV and others tell > me it's Fortran-77...not to mention weird "vax-isms" in Fortran of > the time period. I don't know offhand what compiler options might work, and I don't have a running VMS system at the moment. I'd just look at the help screens if I were you. > I have a stack of vaxen sitting here > (vaxstation-3000/m76) so I can get at least one running vms 4.2with > the old fortran and put the code exactly the way it was at the time > and see what happens. or if I'm real lazy I'll setup vms 4.2 on simh > and do the same thing :) Dan. That sounds like a good plan. Definitely fire up the hardware, though! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 27 12:09:07 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:09:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader, 4912 cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <462109.4922.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 6/27/11, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader, 4912 cassette drive > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, June 27, 2011, 8:42 AM > Has anyone ever seen either of > these?? They're introduced in the Tektronix > catalog for 1973, pg. 277.? I cannot find pictures of > either of these > peripherals in any catalog.? The cassette drive > appeared in only the > 1973 catalog and the tape punch/reader appeared for only > three years. I have the 4911 tape reader/punch. I also have it's manual somewhere. Bob > > Prices: > > ? ? ? ? 4911? ? 4912 > 1973? ? $2950???$1950 > 1974? ? $2950??? > 1975? ? $3295 > > I've collated together all the graphics/terminal products > from the > various Tektronix catalogs together into a single PDF > file: > > > This includes the storage scope displays and related > equipment, but > omits all the oscilloscope, test equipment and > microprocessor development > system stuff.? It does include the workstations, > however. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft > available for download > > > ? ? ? Legalize Adulthood! > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 27 12:16:53 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:16:53 -0600 Subject: 4 tran In-Reply-To: <4E084CCA.4412.2ABC9C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E084CCA.4412.2ABC9C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E08BB05.5010906@jetnet.ab.ca> On 6/27/2011 10:26 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > N.B. It's "FORTRAN-77", but "Fortran-90" or "FORTRAN-90". It can't be Fortran unless it is all UPPER CASE and ROMAN NUMERALS. > --Chuck > What standard of Fortran was it that was out when the PC came out? Ben. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 27 12:23:03 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:23:03 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader, 4912 cassette drive In-Reply-To: <462109.4922.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <462109.4922.qm@web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <462109.4922.qm at web80505.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > I have the 4911 tape reader/punch. I also have it's manual somewhere. Have you posted photos on dvq.com? I'm mostly curious as to what these look like. I put together the combined catalog PDF as I was tired of having to flip through huge PDF documents for only a couple pages of interest. Hopefully these condensed PDFs will be useful to other Tek collectors like yourself. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 27 12:34:17 2011 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:34:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader, 4912 cassette drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <132174.73841.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Richard wrote: > Have you posted photos on dvq.com?? I'm mostly curious > as to what > these look like. > They are not linked yet but here's two photos: http://www.dvq.com/tek/photos/tek_4911_tape_rdr_punch.jpg http://www.dvq.com/tek/photos/tek_4911_inside.jpg These are large photos, not yet scaled down. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 27 12:53:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:53:12 -0700 Subject: 4 tran In-Reply-To: <4E08BB05.5010906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <4E084CCA.4412.2ABC9C@cclist.sydex.com>, <4E08BB05.5010906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4E086118.22389.7A105A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2011 at 11:16, ben wrote: > What standard of Fortran was it that was out when the PC came out? That was FORTRAN-77. ANSI dropped the Roman numeral business because vendors were appropriating Roman numerals for their own "enhanced" versions of FORTRAN IV. Consider, for example, Univac 1107 FORTRAN V (late 1960's). The other issue is that the Roman numerals didn't identify a specific dialect of FORTRAN, just a basic ill-defined subset. So, instead of punching a "D" in column 1 of a card to signify double-precision in FORTRAN II on the IBM 7090, there was a DOUBLE PRECISION (or DO UBLEP RECISION) type statement in FORTRAN IV. --Chuck From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 13:14:47 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:14:47 +0100 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <20110624180539.C34614@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org> <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> <20110624180539.C34614@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: I was just reviewing an old set of conference proceedings Computer Techniques Research and Information Group of the Quantity Surveyors Committee Royal Intitution of Chartered Surveyors 1967 In a listing I noticed a good one the use a strike though 0 for the letter O and a O for 0 OCR that! btw cannot tell which computer system was used, although it was developed by Gleeds, Quantity surveyors for Marks and Spencer and their contractors Bovis Ltd Dave Caroline From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jun 27 13:32:19 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 11:32:19 -0700 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, June 24, 2011 7:12 PM > I got the DEC PDP-10 source code for Adventure from a DEC field > engineer about 1974-75 on a reel of 9-track tape (don't laugh--we > were still heavily into 7-track). I was surprised to see that it was > text packed into binary form--3 7-bit ASCII characters per 36-bit > word (you'd have thought that if it was character data, it'd be one > character per tape character); converted it to 6 bit display code and > unraveled the DEC-10-specific FORTRAN constructs into their CDC 6000 > versions (harder than you'd think, particularly with Hollerith > constants); transformed the database to be readable by 6000-series > FORTRAN I/O and I was off and running. I can guarantee you that the ASCII text was packed 5x7bit into the 36 bit words. (I had access to the same source as you worked from since 1977.) Why would anyone waste 25 bits per word to represent ASCII text???? (The hardware includes byte manipulation instructions which work very nicely.) And tape frames are 8 bits + parity, which loses a bit per 7-bit character so why do that? Let the tape controller handle packing a 36 bit word into 5 tape frames, and stop worrying about it. :-) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 27 14:17:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 13:17:15 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4911 paper tape punch/reader, 4912 cassette drive In-Reply-To: <132174.73841.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <132174.73841.qm@web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <132174.73841.qm at web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > > > Richard wrote: > > Have you posted photos on dvq.com? I'm mostly curious > > as to what > > these look like. > > > > They are not linked yet but here's two photos: > > http://www.dvq.com/tek/photos/tek_4911_tape_rdr_punch.jpg > http://www.dvq.com/tek/photos/tek_4911_inside.jpg Interesting! The catalog says that these are host controllable through the terminal. Since you have the manual, can you summarize how that is supposed to work? Does it sit in between the host and the terminal and use ASCII control codes to control tape punch and playback? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 27 14:25:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 12:25:04 -0700 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4E0876A0.13173.CE2B7A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jun 2011 at 11:32, Rich Alderson wrote: > Why would anyone waste 25 bits per word to represent ASCII text???? > (The hardware includes byte manipulation instructions which work very > nicely.) And tape frames are 8 bits + parity, which loses a bit per > 7-bit character so why do that? Let the tape controller handle > packing a 36 bit word into 5 tape frames, and stop worrying about it. You misunderstand the convention. Just as there were binary punched cards and "coded' punched cards, there were also binary tapes and "coded" tapes. It was often the case that the tape formatter on old mainframes could perform the necessary bit-twiddling on the fly. So the common interchange standard for "coded" 9 track tapes was one 8-bit character (meaning a character, not just a collection of bits) per frame. Any operating system was capable of writing such a tape. Consider that I had to read the tape on a CDC 6600. I couldn't use the "coded" standard interchange format (it would have been a simple copy operation", but I had to deal with the screwball DEC 10 binary format. Further, consider that the CDC 6600 used 60-bit words and was not byte-addressable. So, I had to read 15 frames at a time, which corresponded to 2 60-bit words. However, those 120 bits were 3 1/3 PDP-10 words, from which I had to unpack 16 2/3 7-bit ASCII characters and convert them to 6 bit display code (hope I've got my math right). You get the idea. Conversion between mainframe formats could be a lot of fun. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 27 14:32:45 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 20:32:45 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual Message-ID: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 disk? MANX lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals would be good too. Thanks Rob From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 14:42:42 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:42:42 -0400 Subject: Q-bus chassis Message-ID: The RetroComputing Society of Rhode Island is doing some housecleaning, as we need to make room for a new machine (a Cray J). I will probably offer up some goodies here and on Ebay over the next few weeks. I might even throw some of the Joe Heck stuff in as well. We have a couple of MDB Qbus chassis - no cards. Pretty basic 3rd party DEC stuff. These are rack mount, and are roughly equivalent to a PDP-11/23. We would like to get anything over shipping for these. Additionally, I could probably deliver to any of the NY area hamfests, or even at our open houses in Providence, RI (generally 3rd Saturday of the month). We will also have a massive triage of u-fixum VT100s soon. Those will likely be pickup only. All proceeds over shipping will go to RCS. -- Will, in 10512 From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Jun 27 14:51:19 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 20:51:19 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC RD53 Manual > > > Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 > disk? MANX lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals > would be good too. I have this if it's of any use: EK-LEP07-OM-001 RD54-D, -R Fixed Disk Drive Subsystem Owner's Manual and it's possibly online: http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lep07om1.pdf (if not, perhaps it's on "new manx", if it's not there I can upload it somewhere maybe) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 27 15:08:22 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:08:22 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> I found the RD54 manual (I hadn't searched for it as I was really interested in the RD53 manuals). Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:51 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:33 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DEC RD53 Manual > > > > > > Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 disk? MANX > > lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals would be good too. > > I have this if it's of any use: > > EK-LEP07-OM-001 RD54-D, -R Fixed Disk Drive Subsystem Owner's Manual > > and it's possibly online: > > http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lep07om1.pdf > > (if not, perhaps it's on "new manx", if it's not there I can upload it somewhere > maybe) > > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:10:04 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:10:04 -0300 Subject: HP1650A boot discs References: <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <24DD987441A545879F581EBBDFA4A615@portajara> Hi all! :oD Maybe someone has a link for downloadable disks for the HP1650A Logic Analyzer? :o) Thanks Alexandre Souza --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:18:39 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:18:39 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have the RD53-A technical description EK-RD53A-TD-001on microfiche I dont have a fiche scanner yet so ask any pertinent questions here or on IRC Dave Caroline (archivist on IRC) On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I found the RD54 manual (I hadn't searched for it as I was really interested > in the RD53 manuals). > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org >> Sent: 27 June 2011 20:51 >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >> > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:33 >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Subject: DEC RD53 Manual >> > >> > >> > Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 disk? MANX >> > lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals would be good too. >> >> I have this if it's of any use: >> >> EK-LEP07-OM-001 RD54-D, -R Fixed Disk Drive Subsystem Owner's Manual >> >> and it's possibly online: >> >> http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lep07om1.pdf >> >> (if not, perhaps it's on "new manx", if it's not there I can upload it > somewhere >> maybe) >> >> Antonio >> arcarlini at iee.org > > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jun 27 15:28:42 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:28:42 -0500 (CDT) Subject: HP1650A boot discs In-Reply-To: <24DD987441A545879F581EBBDFA4A615@portajara> Message-ID: On Mon, 27 Jun 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Hi all! :oD > > Maybe someone has a link for downloadable disks for the HP1650A Logic > Analyzer? :o) Unless I'm missing something, Agilent has the software for free download on their website, along with the manuals: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/techSupport.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&nid=-536900196.536896420&pid=1650A%3Aepsg%3Apro&pageMode=OV - JP From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:45:16 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 15:45:16 -0500 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: try ur locaql lybrary they will more then likely have a machean u can use On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I have the RD53-A technical description EK-RD53A-TD-001on microfiche > > I dont have a fiche scanner yet so ask any pertinent questions here or on > IRC > > Dave Caroline (archivist on IRC) > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I found the RD54 manual (I hadn't searched for it as I was really > interested > > in the RD53 manuals). > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > >> Sent: 27 June 2011 20:51 > >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > >> Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > >> > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:33 > >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > Subject: DEC RD53 Manual > >> > > >> > > >> > Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 disk? MANX > >> > lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals would be good too. > >> > >> I have this if it's of any use: > >> > >> EK-LEP07-OM-001 RD54-D, -R Fixed Disk Drive Subsystem Owner's Manual > >> > >> and it's possibly online: > >> > >> http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lep07om1.pdf > >> > >> (if not, perhaps it's on "new manx", if it's not there I can upload it > > somewhere > >> maybe) > >> > >> Antonio > >> arcarlini at iee.org > > > > > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 15:55:07 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 21:55:07 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have a fiche reader here library probably costs money! Dave On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 9:45 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > try ur locaql lybrary they will ?more then likely have a machean u can use > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 3:18 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: > >> I have the RD53-A technical description EK-RD53A-TD-001on microfiche >> >> I dont have a fiche scanner yet so ask any pertinent questions here or on >> IRC >> >> Dave Caroline (archivist on IRC) >> >> On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >> > I found the RD54 manual (I hadn't searched for it as I was really >> interested >> > in the RD53 manuals). >> > >> > Regards >> > >> > Rob >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org >> >> Sent: 27 June 2011 20:51 >> >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' >> >> Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual >> >> >> >> >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> >> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt >> >> > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:33 >> >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> > Subject: DEC RD53 Manual >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 disk? MANX >> >> > lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals would be good too. >> >> >> >> I have this if it's of any use: >> >> >> >> EK-LEP07-OM-001 RD54-D, -R Fixed Disk Drive Subsystem Owner's Manual >> >> >> >> and it's possibly online: >> >> >> >> http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lep07om1.pdf >> >> >> >> (if not, perhaps it's on "new manx", if it's not there I can upload it >> > somewhere >> >> maybe) >> >> >> >> Antonio >> >> arcarlini at iee.org >> > >> > >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 27 16:08:29 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 14:08:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kludge a fanfold scanner feeder (Was: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, , <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, , , <4E04E17F.18733.23F5A0A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110627134619.W41429@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 27 Jun 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Fred - I have a 16.2MP Sony digital camera I could use for "scanning" > but doing that with a printoutthat is 6" thick will take an obscenely > long amount of time. There are (WERE?) commercial scanners set up for exactly that. You can put together a system to do it. You can build something MUCH BETTER and more suitable than THUNDERSCAN! Do a few pages manually to confirm quality. Look at all of your printers that have traction feed. If you don't have an adequate selection, post here, and somebody may be able to help. Find the one that has the largest flat area of paper exposed while it is going through the printer. (a printer that has a dozen teeth in its tractor mechanism is obviously going to be better than one with a small round palaten and only 3 or 4 teeth!). I gave my Centronics 101 to CCSF, but I wasn't able to even give away a big Anadex printer that would have been adequate. Even better, would be to trash a printer, and make a rig using just the tractor mechanism, motor, etc. Set up the camera to be able to photograph the exposed area. If the camera is adequate to the task, remove the existing lens, and use a bellows with L39 thread and an enlarger (flat field!) lens. Wire the printer and the shutter release of the camera to a computer. There are many ways to trigger the camera with the computer; I would use a spare printer port, but it's always nice to have a dedicated camera port. DO { Photograph the exposed section of paper. Line feed or form feed to the next section. } UNTIL DONE You have the skills to automate that! Now, replace that printer with one that exposes the entire page(s) at a time, such as the old IBM 360 printers (no idea of model number) > I don't want to separate the pages, I have this massive fear that as > soon as I do, they will get out of order... A very reasonable fear. Start by taking a very fine point felt pen and make some diagonal edge marks, just like you used to do with decks of cards. It's not adequate protection, but it COULD help. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 27 16:09:14 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 22:09:14 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> I would really like to get a description of the jumpers. The next level of detail might need to be the print set because I have a spin up/down problem which is not the sticking heads problem, and if I get desperate I might start using my newly acquired oscilloscope to see if I can work out why it is happening. I think there are people on this list who have fiche readers, but I don't know if it is possible to get machine readable scans from fiche. The spin up/down problem has only just started happening on one of my disks and is quite odd. I have it in a MicroVAX 2000. When I have seen these problems before the disk will spin up and down quite quickly, but in this case the disk spins fine during the POST, but then when it gets to TEST 7 the test pauses for a while, then the disk slows down, at which point the test prints its question mark, and then the disk speeds up again and the POST continues, but the disk is seen as faulty and that is that for the disk. I have not seen this behaviour before. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 27 June 2011 21:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC RD53 Manual > > I have the RD53-A technical description EK-RD53A-TD-001on microfiche > > I dont have a fiche scanner yet so ask any pertinent questions here or on IRC > > Dave Caroline (archivist on IRC) > > On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I found the RD54 manual (I hadn't searched for it as I was really > > interested in the RD53 manuals). > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of arcarlini at iee.org > >> Sent: 27 June 2011 20:51 > >> To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > >> Subject: RE: DEC RD53 Manual > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > >> > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > >> > Sent: 27 June 2011 20:33 > >> > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > Subject: DEC RD53 Manual > >> > > >> > > >> > Does anyone have a copy of any of the manuals for the RD53 disk? > >> > MANX lists manuals but none are online. RD54 manuals would be good > too. > >> > >> I have this if it's of any use: > >> > >> EK-LEP07-OM-001 RD54-D, -R Fixed Disk Drive Subsystem Owner's Manual > >> > >> and it's possibly online: > >> > >> http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/lep07om1.pdf > >> > >> (if not, perhaps it's on "new manx", if it's not there I can upload > >> it > > somewhere > >> maybe) > >> > >> Antonio > >> arcarlini at iee.org > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 16:38:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 17:38:33 -0400 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > I have a fiche reader here library probably costs money! My experience (which may vary from yours) is that reading fiche at libraries is free but printing copies of fiche costs money. -ethan From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 17:06:48 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:06:48 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Yes the library printing cost was what I was alluding to. I do have a serious microfiche pile (thousands) here though and would rather spend any money I dont have on a digital solution. I also have to get them catalogued and thats likely to take years of spare time unless I can automate the scanning and cataloguing into one process. I will have a go at a digital picture of the reader screen. Dave Caroline On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 10:38 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 4:55 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> I have a fiche reader here library probably costs money! > > My experience (which may vary from yours) is that reading fiche at > libraries is free but printing copies of fiche costs money. > > -ethan > From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 17:08:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 19:08:31 -0300 Subject: HP1650A boot discs References: Message-ID: <3E022EB469D442328DECF139B607173E@portajara> And I **searched** it there... :( Thanks a lot! :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br ----- Original Message ----- From: "JP Hindin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, June 27, 2011 5:28 PM Subject: Re: HP1650A boot discs > > > On Mon, 27 Jun 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > >> >> Hi all! :oD >> >> Maybe someone has a link for downloadable disks for the HP1650A >> Logic >> Analyzer? :o) > > Unless I'm missing something, Agilent has the software for free download > on their website, along with the manuals: > > http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/techSupport.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&nid=-536900196.536896420&pid=1650A%3Aepsg%3Apro&pageMode=OV > > - JP > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 17:33:34 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:33:34 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: heres the jumper page and one other shaky experiment http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2011/2011_06_27_RD53A/ Dave Caroline On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 10:09 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I would really like to get a description of the jumpers. > > The next level of detail might need to be the print set because I have a > spin up/down problem which is not the sticking heads problem, and if I get > desperate I might start using my newly acquired oscilloscope to see if I can > work out why it is happening. I think there are people on this list who have > fiche readers, but I don't know if it is possible to get machine readable > scans from fiche. > > The spin up/down problem has only just started happening on one of my disks > and is quite odd. I have it in a MicroVAX 2000. When I have seen these > problems before the disk will spin up and down quite quickly, but in this > case the disk spins fine during the POST, but then when it gets to TEST 7 > the test pauses for a while, then the disk slows down, at which point the > test prints its question mark, and then the disk speeds up again and the Jumper W1 makes the drive latch the error, you may need to try that the fault finding flow chart is replace board/whatever and retry without much/any detail > POST continues, but the disk is seen as faulty and that is that for the > disk. I have not seen this behaviour before. > > Regards > > Rob From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 17:51:11 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:51:11 -0400 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Dave Caroline wrote: > heres the jumper page and one other shaky experiment > > http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2011/2011_06_27_RD53A/ Allow me to suggest a polarizing filter on your camera to cut the glare. Also, a camera with an external trigger (my Olympus E-10 has that option) plus a tripod would help with stability (and raise production speed). -ethan From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 27 18:06:25 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 00:06:25 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: allow me time to experiment! filters cost money, easier to switch the light off! pic one was hand held hence called an experiment I now have to deal with the camera unable to count above a certain number so its wasted time not storing pics Dave Caroline On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 11:51 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 6:33 PM, Dave Caroline > wrote: >> heres the jumper page and one other shaky experiment >> >> http://www.collection.archivist.info/archive/DJCPD/PD/2011/2011_06_27_RD53A/ > > Allow me to suggest a polarizing filter on your camera to cut the > glare. ?Also, a camera with an external trigger (my Olympus E-10 has > that option) plus a tripod would help with stability (and raise > production speed). > > -ethan > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 27 19:12:25 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 18:12:25 -0600 Subject: SGI servers on gsaauctions.gov Message-ID: There's some SGI servers out at NASA (Langley, VA) on gsaauctions.gov if anyone feels like bidding on them. Opening bid is like $25-35, so definately a bargain. one lot has 2 Onyx 2 cubes and another lot has an Origin 2000 rack (could have graphics, hard to tell). I'd bid on these, but trans-continental freight shipping is prohibitive these days and the purple cubes are definately sensitive to handling. Hopefully someone out on the least coast will snatch 'em up. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Jun 27 22:21:30 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 23:21:30 -0400 Subject: anyone got an ISO of vms 4.2 ? Message-ID: Anyone on the list have an ISO of vms 4.2 I could get a copy of? I have vms v1, v2, v3, and v7+ but seem to have misplaced the images of versions inbetween. It'd be much appreciated. Yes, I have several licenses (purchased with real vax machines) thanks muchly! Dan. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 28 01:02:02 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 07:02:02 +0100 Subject: anyone got an ISO of vms 4.2 ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101cc3558$e7fa3370$b7ee9a50$@ntlworld.com> I have a SIMH virtual tape file which you can have if you like. Do you have an FTP location I can upload it to? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dan Gahlinger > Sent: 28 June 2011 04:22 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: anyone got an ISO of vms 4.2 ? > > > Anyone on the list have an ISO of vms 4.2 I could get a copy of? > I have vms v1, v2, v3, and v7+ but seem to have misplaced the images of > versions inbetween. > It'd be much appreciated. > Yes, I have several licenses (purchased with real vax machines) thanks muchly! > Dan. = From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 01:11:08 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 07:11:08 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have done the whole manual now but there are a few repeats where I thought I had an error like shake I dont like how the centre area tends to burn out and make it difficult to read, I need a better method There are pics near the end showing the method of plate clamped to book shelf and camera mount clamped to plate its at about 5 ft 6" above the floor Dave Caroline From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 28 01:54:16 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 07:54:16 +0100 Subject: DEC RD53 Manual In-Reply-To: References: <00a401cc3500$ff07dfc0$fd179f40$@ntlworld.com> <2483F1EA20DD498F9F225C1507CCC610@ANTONIOPC> <00a601cc3505$f8d66310$ea832930$@ntlworld.com> <00aa01cc350e$79b01960$6d104c20$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001201cc3560$360372f0$a20a58d0$@ntlworld.com> Many thanks, I am assembling the pictures into a PDF. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Caroline > Sent: 28 June 2011 07:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC RD53 Manual > > I have done the whole manual now but there are a few repeats where I > thought I had an error like shake > > I dont like how the centre area tends to burn out and make it difficult to read, > I need a better method > > There are pics near the end showing the method of plate clamped to book > shelf and camera mount clamped to plate its at about 5 ft 6" above the floor > > Dave Caroline From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 14:40:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:40:16 -0400 Subject: Q-bus chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > We will also have a massive triage of u-fixum VT100s soon. Those will > likely be pickup only. Just to clarify: U-fixum mean that they will not be working. Pickup only means be at the open house on the 3rd Saturday of July, about 3 or so. -- Will From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 15:01:53 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 15:01:53 -0500 Subject: Q-bus chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have logic boards and most other parts, but no keyboards. Paul On Tue, Jun 28, 2011 at 2:40 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> We will also have a massive triage of u-fixum VT100s soon. Those will >> likely be pickup only. > > Just to clarify: > > U-fixum mean that they will not be working. > > Pickup only means be at the open house on the 3rd Saturday of July, > about 3 or so. > > -- > Will > From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 15:05:45 2011 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?St=E9phane_Tsacas?=) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:05:45 +0200 Subject: Q-bus chassis In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, Jun 27, 2011 at 21:42, William Donzelli wrote: > > We have a couple of MDB Qbus chassis - no cards. Pretty basic 3rd > party DEC stuff. These are rack mount, and are roughly equivalent to a > PDP-11/23. > > Do they come with a PSU ? Thanks -- Stephane http://www.freedonne.org help scientific and medical research. Join FreeDonne. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 28 15:21:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:21:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Q-bus chassis In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Jun 28, 11 03:01:53 pm Message-ID: > > I have logic boards and most other parts, but no keyboards. My experience with repairing VT100s and VT101s suggests : - Logic fualts (both the main logic board and the keyboard logic) are uncommon. Apart from the 2 ASCIs (video timing and video dot path) these boards are easy to fix anyway. - Keyboard contact probles, cracked plungers and missing keycaps occur as you'd expect on this design of keyboard (it's the same design as the HP85 series, HP9816, original TRS-80 Model 1, VT5x, TI 99/4a, etc, all of whcih can be a source of contacts etc). - The PSU can fail. In the V100 it's a swticher. But it's one of the most reparier-freindly switchers I've ever worked on, in that almost all the controi circuitry is on the isolated, output, side of the PSU. - Video prroblems are by far the most common class of faults. Top of those is a failed flyback transofrmer, which is separately mounted on the chassis. The rectifier diodes o nthe video board can fail, sometimes accelerating the death of the flyback trnasformer. CRts can lose emission, but try cleaning the screen first if you can't get much brightness/contrast from one. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 28 15:31:57 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:31:57 +0100 Subject: DEC Microfiche index In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01CD4D9CD2B7474F97B35F47D691056F@ANTONIOPC> Thanks to the good offices of Mr. Graham, I now have a microfiche reader and quite a lot of fiche. Has anyone produced an index yet? (By "index" I mean which manual is on which fiche. So, picking at random one where I can clearly read "PDP-14 Maintenance Manual" I can see (ok, with a loupe) that it seems to have the manual EP-PDP14-00-MM-A. From a cursory glance, I think I could index a fair few of the technical manuals this way. Not sure about the diagnostics and the other stuff though. (Reading them would, I guess take several additional lifetimes :-)) Incidentally, the fiche user guide (EK-FICHE-UG-001) states that it needs a 42x reader. Pity I spent 15 mins fiddling with my EyeCom 2100 24x reader wondering what I'd done wrong or what the optician had missed before I realised ... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 28 16:08:05 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 14:08:05 -0700 Subject: DEC Microfiche index In-Reply-To: <01CD4D9CD2B7474F97B35F47D691056F@ANTONIOPC> References: <01CD4D9CD2B7474F97B35F47D691056F@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4E0A42B5.50008@bitsavers.org> On 6/28/11 1:31 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Has anyone produced an index yet? not that I know of. there are a LOT of them. PDP-10 alone is over three feet thick. PDP-8 and PDP-11 fit into two DEC fiche boxes (about 1 ft thick each) VAX is bigger than PDP-10 that's not counting source listings, just manuals and diags I'm guessing manuals total are about a foot but a lot of them have been located and scanned from paper. 42x is a real problem for resolution, esp scanning From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 28 16:41:07 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 22:41:07 +0100 Subject: DEC Microfiche index In-Reply-To: <4E0A42B5.50008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > there are a LOT of them. PDP-10 alone is over > three feet thick. PDP-8 and PDP-11 fit into two > DEC fiche boxes (about 1 ft thick each) VAX is > bigger than PDP-10 > > that's not counting source listings, just manuals > and diags A few feet from me sits a metal box with just diags fiches (it says "VSX FS Micrfiche Library/Diagnostics Listings", so I guess that's just diags relevant to VAX systems and their options), so diags is huge. There are also OS source listings and (although they were never published AFAIK there were also source listings for any products that chose to have such produced). > I'm guessing manuals total are about a foot but > a lot of them have been located and scanned from > paper. I wouldn't be surprised to find that some manuals were only ever available on fiche. Surely most diags were only available in source form on fiche? I'd like a list primarily so I can (relatively) quickly find what I have (and maybe what I'm missing). The fiche user guide explains how to keep the library up to date by inserting new fiche and removing old fiche. So there's plenty of scope for things to be mssing (especially if you really want to have -001 and -002 of some manual). > 42x is a real problem for resolution, esp scanning They are what they are I'm afraid. I don't have a fiche scanner so I'm in no position to scan anything yet. Maybe one day (although I don't think I've seen scanned fiche output that looks as easy on the eye as a 600dpi scan yet). Antonio From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 28 20:20:33 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:20:33 -0700 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Re: On Jun 24, 2011, at 1:12 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Jun 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> I have a few rather thick text printouts from the mid-1970's on 132 >> ... > Probabilistic ranking can do quite a bit if set up properly. For example, > what characters would be most likely after a 'Q'? ('U', period, comma, or > space) What are the most likely characters following a space? (Hint: > AFTER A SPACE, it is NOT ETAOINSHRLDU) > > The OCR software can start with a substantial DB of fonts. Your last question, about the space, got me curious... I took your email (including the embedded quote of Dan's email) and counted: I took the liberty of fixing a few typos (e.g.: paper,standard was changed to "paper, standard" (otherwise that "s" wouldn't be counted), and considered the first letter of a word after a paragraph or sentence break still counted as being after a space. I counted uppercase letters with their lowercase counterparts. The most popular four letters were four of the five of "ETAOI": t (# instances: 61) i (# instances: 49) a (# instances: 47) o (# instances: 37) c (# instances: 35) w (# instances: 32) b (# instances: 28) s (# instances: 28) f (# instances: 20) p (# instances: 17) d (# instances: 14) e (# instances: 14) n (# instances: 14) l (# instances: 13) r (# instances: 12) h (# instances: 11) g (# instances: 8) m (# instances: 8) u (# instances: 6) j (# instances: 3) k (# instances: 3) q (# instances: 2) But, I'm curious...what were the letters you thought would appear more frequently? Stan (probably should be working instead :) Sieler From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jun 28 20:22:39 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 21:22:39 -0400 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: <001101cc3558$e7fa3370$b7ee9a50$@ntlworld.com> References: , <001101cc3558$e7fa3370$b7ee9a50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Looks like I made a mistake (badly).I thought 4.2 was on CD I was just trying to remember which vms it was that I used on that micro-vax IIback in the mid-80s, it certainly wasn't on tape would it have been 5.2 ? or what was the earliest CD version of vms?that would probably be the best place to start. if someone had an ISO of that Dan. From ss at allegro.com Tue Jun 28 20:23:14 2011 From: ss at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:23:14 -0700 Subject: Free: HP 3000 Corporate Business System (12-way) in Cupertino In-Reply-To: <4E080846.1030008@gmail.com> References: <4E080846.1030008@gmail.com> Message-ID: Re: On Jun 26, 2011, at 9:34 PM, leaknoil wrote: > Did you find a home for this ? I can let some friends know if not. They love the hp gear. > Possibly...the Living Computer Museum and I are discussing it, and one other person may be interested if they turn it down. thanks! > On 6/23/2011 7:44 PM, Stan Sieler wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I have an HP 3000 Corporate Business System (3000/996) with 12 CPUs >> and 1 to 2 GB of RAM, in 6' rack that I'd like to find a home for. >> >> It runs! The A/C power plug requires the weird hi-amp 3-prong outlet, not standard household 110. >> >> It's in Cupertino, CA, and is housed in a 6' rack (included). >> >> (Sadly, it qualifies as a classic, probably from about 1997.) >> >> If no home is found fairly quickly, it'll be scrapped, unfortunately. >> >> Stan >> > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 28 20:43:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 18:43:27 -0700 Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <4E0A20CF.7556.20DF17A@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jun 2011 at 18:20, Stan Sieler wrote: > But, I'm curious...what were the letters you thought would appear more > frequently? Occasionally, I get a floppy in for conversion that belongs to a typewriter that I'm not familiar with. It becomes a matter of guessing which binary code belongs to what character, as many of these devices simply use the position of the character on the typewheel as its binary value. If you don't have the hardware (very often the case), you have to guess. Spaces and end-of-line sequences are fairly easy to figure out, but then the problem turns into a version of "Cryptoquote": http://www.eastoftheweb.com/cgi-bin/top_scores.pl?game=cryptoquote A bit more complicated, however, since upper- and lowercase codes are different and there is the issue of punctuation and special effects (e.g. bolding, etc.) to figure out. What never ceases to surprise me is how the letter frequency chart can vary, depending on the subject of the document used as a sample. Note on your example, where "e" is on your chart--a letter that is supposed to be the most frequently-encountered vowel and, in fact, the most frequently-encountered letter: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_frequency --Chuck From drac7ft at gmail.com Tue Jun 28 11:25:50 2011 From: drac7ft at gmail.com (Dennis Rosenauer) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 09:25:50 -0700 Subject: Free Sun 4/280 and Other Sun Stuff Message-ID: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Free to a good home. I have some vintage Sun4 equipment that I would like to give away to someone who can use it. The equipment is all located near Vancouver Canada. I will not ship it, you will have to pick it up. I will help you load it. Sun 4/280 in cabinet with 9 track 1600/6250 bpi 1/2 inch tape drive, two Hitachi 900 MB SMD disk drives and 16 channel serial port. Sun Sparc 1 pizza box computer, with 425 MB disk drive Two Sun monitors Sun 4/280 chassis with CPU, memory, disk controller and one Hitachi 900 MB disk drive. Assorted Sun VME boards and extra cables and stuff,(disk controller, SCSI interface etc.) All the computers are currently working and running Sun/OS 4.1.3. Contact Dennis at drac7ft *at* gmail *dot* com. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 29 01:25:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2011 23:25:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 column fanfold mid-1970s text printout In-Reply-To: References: <4E04D68E.1080706@bitsavers.org>, <1308940561.61218.YahooMailClassic@web121614.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, <20110624123325.D30667@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110628224343.K96647@shell.lmi.net> > > Probabilistic ranking can do quite a bit if set up properly. For example, > > what characters would be most likely after a 'Q'? ('U', period, comma, or > > space) What are the most likely characters following a space? (Hint: > > AFTER A SPACE, it is NOT ETAOINSHRLDU) On Tue, 28 Jun 2011, Stan Sieler wrote: > Your last question, about the space, got me curious... > I took your email (including the embedded quote of Dan's email) and counted: > I took the liberty of fixing a few typos (e.g.: paper,standard was > changed to "paper, standard" (otherwise that "s" wouldn't be counted), > and considered the first letter of a word after a paragraph or sentence > break still counted as being after a space. A LOT can be learned from cryptography (which I am almost totally ignorant of) ,for OCR. For example, if we assume (RISKY??) that whitespace is known, a single letter word is PROBABLY one of a very few choices. An important principle to remember is that we can derive a lot of information from the data by paying attention to, and USING, the probabilities and their combinations. Bill Cooper: But isn't "fuzzy logic" just combinatorial probability? Lofti Zadeh: Probably. Using the probabilities may require a LOT of data to work from, not just a few amateur wordy posts. Using another one of the most gross and obvious examples, in general English text, the letter following a 'Q' is generally a 'U', except in characters within acronyms or within or part numbers; in political text, if a word ends in 'q', the word is so likely to be Iraq that much effort can be saved by just looking for confirmation of that rather than struggling with uncertain characters before looking at the word. Likewise in THIS context, the word ending in 'q' is most likely Compaq. The content can also cause ENORMOUS variation. Differences in subject vocabulary can have different frequency statistics. Different scientific disciplines have different vocabularies. And, of course, if somebody had the unenviable task of trying to decode "text-speak" ("C U 4 lunch @ 12?", etc.) there would be different frequencies. (Or email illiteracy of there/their/they're, two/to/too) > I counted uppercase letters with their lowercase counterparts. > The most popular four letters were four of the five of "ETAOI": > t (# instances: 61) > i (# instances: 49) > a (# instances: 47) > o (# instances: 37) > c (# instances: 35) > w (# instances: 32) > b (# instances: 28) > s (# instances: 28) > f (# instances: 20) > p (# instances: 17) > d (# instances: 14) > e (# instances: 14) > . . . > But, I'm curious...what were the letters you thought would appear more > frequently? Not much more than just that letter frequencies of first letters of words should not necessarily be assumed to match the overall frequency, whereas maybe the second or third letter might be a close match. 'E' is not "r at re" as the start of a word, but certainly is NOT the most common first letter. Would it be relevant to glance at the thickness of the sections for the different letters in the dictionary? Well, yes and no. The section length in the dictionary may provide a clue as to how many words start with a given letter, but inaccurately due to the variations in lengths of the definition), and certainly not how frequently said words are used ("the" is generally used more often than "thespian") Some portions of the relative frequencies of letter use are very stable, and some other portions vary wildly. I'm curious about the effects of typos and mispellinqs. You altered the text by correcting our errors. What effect on decoding will the frequency of the words "hte" and "teh" have? There has been some serious research on these subjects, but inadequate application into appropriate fields where that knowledge would be useful, such as OCR, error correction, etc. other than cryptography. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 03:24:04 2011 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 09:24:04 +0100 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: References: <001101cc3558$e7fa3370$b7ee9a50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 29 June 2011 02:22, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > Looks like I made a mistake (badly).I thought 4.2 was on CD > I was just trying to remember which vms it was that I used on that micro-vax IIback in the mid-80s, it certainly wasn't on tape > would it have been 5.2 ? or what was the earliest CD version of vms?that would probably be the best place to start. if someone had an ISO of that > Dan. The earliest ones I have, somewhere, is 5.5 and 5.5-2H4. I remember being onsite with a DEC engineer installing *maybe* 5.2 but I wouldn't swear on it. I just remember being impressed that it was on CD and we didn't have to struggle with TK50s :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jun 29 04:07:14 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:07:14 +0100 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > On 29 June 2011 02:22, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >> Looks like I made a mistake (badly).I thought 4.2 was on CD >> I was just trying to remember which vms it was that I used on that >> micro-vax IIback in the mid-80s, it certainly wasn't on tape would it >> have been 5.2 ? or what was the earliest CD version of vms?that would >> probably be the best place to start. if someone had an ISO of that >> Dan. If Dan was using a MicroVAX in the late 80s it might have been running MicroVMS V4.1(?) and it might have come on RX50 (lots of RX50s ...). The first system I managed was a MicroVAX II which was running MicroVMS V4.5C (had to be V4.5C to be in a LAVC with a VS2000). That one was installed from TK50. I'd have to look to see when the first CD VMS release came out but I know I've seen internal-to-DEC CDs for products dated 1992, so V5.0 seems like a good bet. Adrian Graham [binarydinosaurs at gmail.com] wrote: > The earliest ones I have, somewhere, is 5.5 and 5.5-2H4. I > remember being onsite with a DEC engineer installing *maybe* > 5.2 but I wouldn't swear on it. I just remember being > impressed that it was on CD and we didn't have to struggle > with TK50s :) Until you've used a TU58 to boot S/A BACKUP on a VAX-11/750 as part of the VMS V4.7 to VMS V5.0 upgrade, I don't think you've lived :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 04:19:50 2011 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:19:50 +0100 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 June 2011 10:07, wrote: > > If Dan was using a MicroVAX in the late 80s it might have been running > MicroVMS V4.1(?) and it might have come on RX50 (lots of RX50s ...). I did a cluster of 3500s using RX50s to install V5, then licences, DECnet and clustering from TK50 IIRC. They couldn't afford DEC drives so used Systems Industries instead, biiiiiig boxes! > The first system I managed was a MicroVAX II which was running > MicroVMS V4.5C (had to be V4.5C to be in a LAVC with a VS2000). > That one was installed from TK50. VAX 11/730 running VMS 3.7.... ~20min boot time? That was upgraded to a uVAX II which I still have in my garage. > Until you've used a TU58 to boot S/A BACKUP on a VAX-11/750 > as part of the VMS V4.7 to VMS V5.0 upgrade, I don't think you've > lived :-) Booting that 11/730 took long enough, the memories are coming flooding back now! Just checked our CDs at work and the oldest is V5.5. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 29 05:12:54 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 12:12:54 +0200 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller Message-ID: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & flip-chips and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus controller to talk to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large 'In' connectors and also 2 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which describes some generic IBM info, but I would like to know what kind of device(s) could (if possible) directly be connected to such a thing? Thanks, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 08:13:16 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:13:16 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: Dear friends, Maybe someone with a spare Amiga 2000 SCSI controller/memory expansion, or better, a GVT one is willing to make a brazilian happy, or sell for a nice price? :o) Just made an amiga happy again, and I'd love to use it. But without HD and memory it gets boring... Part of the recovering here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnCOIsqns-Q&feature=mh_lolz&list=FLqcPLtwg3Oho Greetz! Alexandre Souza, PU1BZZ --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 29 09:39:47 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:39:47 -0400 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E0B3933.9000707@neurotica.com> On 6/29/11 6:12 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes& flip-chips > and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus controller to talk > to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large 'In' connectors and also 2 > 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which describes some generic IBM info, > but I would like to know what kind of device(s) could (if possible) directly > be connected to such a thing? Oh, neat! One could have a great deal of fun with that, but it'd likely involve writing lots of code. ;) I'd hack on it if it were here. As far as what could be connected to it...I'd imagine pretty much anything with a B&T interface, which would be most any pre-ESCON IBM mainframe peripheral. Disk controllers, tape controllers, terminal and communications controllers.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Wed Jun 29 09:08:27 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 00:08:27 +1000 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29/06/2011, at 7:07 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > Until you've used a TU58 to boot S/A BACKUP on a VAX-11/750 > as part of the VMS V4.7 to VMS V5.0 upgrade, I don't think you've > lived :-) Much more fun was the V2.4 to V3 upgrade on an 11/780. As part of the upgrade there were two sets of microcode floppies and it was really important to get the right one in at the right time. Failure to do so would lead to installation failures - but it took an hour or so to discover that you'd had the wrong one in :-) Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:04:12 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:04:12 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 09:13, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > ? Dear friends, > ? Maybe someone with a spare Amiga 2000 SCSI controller/memory expansion, or > better, a GVT one is willing to make a brazilian happy, or sell for a nice > price? :o) > > ? Just made an amiga happy again, and I'd love to use it. But without HD and > memory it gets boring... If you're not opposed to putting new hardware into the Amiga (as opposed to keeping it "period-authentic") there are people working on expansions for the 1000, 500 etc that work in the 2000: http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=12037 (RAM + non-booting(?) IDE) http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=7158&highlight=ide68 (for http://iki.fi/mkl/ide/ide68k.html) (CF or IDE interface, bootable with V3+ kickstart, or patched earlier KS) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:10:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:10:05 -0400 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:19 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 29 June 2011 10:07, ? wrote: >> >> If Dan was using a MicroVAX in the late 80s it might have been running >> MicroVMS V4.1(?) and it might have come on RX50 (lots of RX50s ...). Yes... lots of floppies. We bought a MicroVAX I when they were first announced, so I did the MicroVMS 1.0 -> MicroVMS 4.1 -> 4.2 -> etc dance. Because the first one ended up being used for hardware testing of our product before bagging and shipping, we never did upgrade that one (4MB, RQDX1, RD51 (10MB), RX50). We did "cheat" to back it up - the machine had (still has) a quad extender card permanently installed, so we removed the COMBOARD under test, and installed an RLV12 and backed up the machine to RL02. Installs and upgrades still took hours, though. > I did a cluster of 3500s using RX50s to install V5, then licences, > DECnet and clustering from TK50 IIRC. They couldn't afford DEC drives > so used Systems Industries instead, biiiiiig boxes! I've worked with a few of those, but on our 11/750 (with a MASSBUS-like host card). >> The first system I managed was a MicroVAX II which was running >> MicroVMS V4.5C... installed from TK50. TK50 installs weren't much faster than RX50 installs, but at least you could walk away and come back (hours) later and it was done. > VAX 11/730 running VMS 3.7.... ~20min boot time? That was a typical boot time if you used the standard TU58 boot tape, but since the onboard 8085 console processor cached the directory tracks (meaning it didn't have to keep hitting the front off the tape to get a new file), we routinely copied the files off of each successive boot tape and wrote a trivial DCL script to build the tape with the files installed in the order in which they would be read off the media. Our 11/730 ran VMS 5.0 at the end of its days (it was our "linking" machine for producing software releases - the build scripts copied the object files over DECnet to it and built VMS 5.0-friendly executables then pulled the results back to our tape-making area), and with the carefully-scripted boot tapes, we could reboot in well under 10 minutes. The time spent reading tape was only about 2-3 minutes of the process. That was upgraded to a uVAX II which I still have in my garage. Those are good, solid machines as long as what you want to do fits in the max memory available. >> Until you've used a TU58 to boot S/A BACKUP on a VAX-11/750 >> as part of the VMS V4.7 to VMS V5.0 upgrade, I don't think you've >> lived :-) I have lived. More than once, it seems. ;-) > Booting that 11/730 took long enough, the memories are coming flooding > back now! Just checked our CDs at work and the oldest is V5.5. I don't think there are many versions on CD much older than that. I don't remember when distribution CDs first came into fashion, but ISTR getting a dummy CD (blank, with an advertising label) at a DECUS in Anaheim in the late 1980s. We were so behind on the times with our hardware, that in 1994, we were still on 9-track/TU58 and TK50 software distribution, long after CDs were an option. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:17:32 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:17:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:04 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > If you're not opposed to putting new hardware into the Amiga (as > opposed to keeping it "period-authentic") there are people working on > expansions for the 1000, 500 etc that work in the 2000: > > http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=12037 (RAM + non-booting(?) IDE) > http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=7158&highlight=ide68 (for > http://iki.fi/mkl/ide/ide68k.html) > (CF or IDE interface, bootable with V3+ kickstart, or patched earlier KS) Those are neat. It's good to see some new expansion options. My A1000 is loaded with tons of 41256 chips, bought back when they cost between $3.50 and $17.50 *each*, but trying to find those old expansion boards is harder than finding an A1000 in the first place. The IDE and CF interfaces are a really nice touch. I think most A2000s ended up with hard disks (even if early adopters bought them without), but lots of A1000s and A500s were floppy-only. -ethan From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 29 10:18:08 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:18:08 +0200 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0B3933.9000707@neurotica.com> References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B3933.9000707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On 6/29/11 6:12 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes& >> flip-chips >> and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus controller to >> talk >> to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large 'In' connectors and also >> 2 >> 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which describes some generic IBM >> info, >> but I would like to know what kind of device(s) could (if possible) >> directly >> be connected to such a thing? > > Oh, neat! One could have a great deal of fun with that, but it'd > likely involve writing lots of code. ;) I'd hack on it if it were here. > > As far as what could be connected to it...I'd imagine pretty much > anything with a B&T interface, which would be most any pre-ESCON IBM > mainframe peripheral. Disk controllers, tape controllers, terminal and > communications controllers.. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > Ok, that sounds interesting. But could it not be an interface which acts like a sort of device itself without the capability to control another device like a disk or tape? Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 29 10:25:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:25:03 -0400 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B3933.9000707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E0B43CF.2090907@neurotica.com> On 6/29/11 11:18 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes& >>> flip-chips >>> and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus controller to >>> talk >>> to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large 'In' connectors and also >>> 2 >>> 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which describes some generic IBM >>> info, >>> but I would like to know what kind of device(s) could (if possible) >>> directly >>> be connected to such a thing? >> >> Oh, neat! One could have a great deal of fun with that, but it'd >> likely involve writing lots of code. ;) I'd hack on it if it were here. >> >> As far as what could be connected to it...I'd imagine pretty much >> anything with a B&T interface, which would be most any pre-ESCON IBM >> mainframe peripheral. Disk controllers, tape controllers, terminal and >> communications controllers.. > > Ok, that sounds interesting. But could it not be an interface which acts > like a sort of device itself without the capability to control another > device like a disk or tape? I suppose it's possible; I don't know what problem it was originally designed to address. If they were just looking to communicate between a Unibus machine and an IBM mainframe, I'd think B&T might not be the first choice though. Perhaps it looks like a CTC adapter? Got any docs? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:26:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:26:48 -0400 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B3933.9000707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Ok, that sounds interesting. But could it not be an interface which acts > like a sort of device itself without the capability to control another > device like a disk or tape? I think CX11 was used when you wanted to hang a PDP-11 off a mainframe channel, rather than have a PDP-11 control anything IBMy. Somewhere around here I have a similar device that hangs a PDP-11 off a CDC Cyber channel. The PDP-11 (a /24, I think) was basically used as a plotter controller. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 29 10:37:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:37:11 -0400 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B3933.9000707@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E0B46A7.1010706@neurotica.com> On 6/29/11 11:26 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Ok, that sounds interesting. But could it not be an interface which acts >> like a sort of device itself without the capability to control another >> device like a disk or tape? > > I think CX11 was used when you wanted to hang a PDP-11 off a mainframe > channel, rather than have a PDP-11 control anything IBMy. > > Somewhere around here I have a similar device that hangs a PDP-11 off > a CDC Cyber channel. The PDP-11 (a /24, I think) was basically used as > a plotter controller. Innnnnteresting. Are there any docs for the CX11 around? A cursory glance at bitsavers didn't turn up anything. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 10:43:16 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:43:16 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:17, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Those are neat. ?It's good to see some new expansion options. ?My > A1000 is loaded with tons of 41256 chips, bought back when they cost > between $3.50 and $17.50 *each*, but trying to find those old > expansion boards is harder than finding an A1000 in the first place. Heh, did you do the "piggybacking" too? :-) I recently took photos of my ugly hack to expand the 1000 with 512k "slow" ram: http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com/2011/06/ancient-history-my-first-amiga-mod.html This was done in the early 90s, forgive my horrible kluging. I wish I could find the instructions that I built this hack from - a quick search of aminet and the Fish index didn't show anything, I must have gotten the instructions of a BBS at some point. > The IDE and CF interfaces are a really nice touch. ?I think most > A2000s ended up with hard disks (even if early adopters bought them > without), but lots of A1000s and A500s were floppy-only. I just recently found AmiBay and am amazed at the stuff people are building. I'm counting my pennies, one of those IDE/Ram interfaces would definitely be a nice thing... Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 29 10:48:27 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:48:27 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> On 6/29/2011 11:17 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Those are neat. It's good to see some new expansion options. My > A1000 is loaded with tons of 41256 chips, bought back when they cost > between $3.50 and $17.50 *each*, but trying to find those old > expansion boards is harder than finding an A1000 in the first place. I just paid about $5.65 shipped for *each* of my (16) 1Mx4-bit DIPs. I was honestly happy to find them at that price. Those chips are exceedingly rare and this is the first time I've found any for sale at a reasonable price and quantity for the last five years. (and I've been looking) This was to expand a Microbotics VXL*30 RAM-32, from 2mb to 8mb, which is an accelerator/ram expansion device for the A500. The 41256 are much more common and available in comparison. Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 11:04:45 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:04:45 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I just paid about $5.65 shipped for *each* of my (16) 1Mx4-bit DIPs. I > was honestly happy to find them at that price. Those chips are > exceedingly rare and this is the first time I've found any for sale at a > reasonable price and quantity for the last five years. (and I've been > looking) They are not SO rare in Brazil. Although uncommon, these can still be found as pulls. > This was to expand a Microbotics VXL*30 RAM-32, from 2mb to 8mb, which is > an accelerator/ram expansion device for the A500. I'd adapt some 30-pin SIMMs on that... From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 11:03:20 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:03:20 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6B970D340CAB44C695440D66852A7E80@portajara> >If you're not opposed to putting new hardware into the Amiga (as >opposed to keeping it "period-authentic") there are people working on >expansions for the 1000, 500 etc that work in the 2000: I don't care much about age, but as always, I'm (really) short on money. Euro60 for a board with almost no parts is too much to me :) From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 29 12:10:58 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:10:58 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E0B5CA2.2030606@verizon.net> On 6/29/2011 12:04 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I just paid about $5.65 shipped for *each* of my (16) 1Mx4-bit >> DIPs. I was honestly happy to find them at that price. Those chips >> are exceedingly rare and this is the first time I've found any for >> sale at a reasonable price and quantity for the last five years. >> (and I've been looking) > > They are not SO rare in Brazil. Although uncommon, these can still be > found as pulls. I was happy that they were NOS, and I fully tested them, and they seem to work fine. I was nervous that I might have a dead one(DOA), or improper handling would either damage a chip or worse the expansion board. These specific boards are likely to be rare(maybe 1/2 dozen users on amiga sites), and provide 32-bit data for the '030 on the accelerator. Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 12:16:03 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:16:03 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com><4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> <4E0B5CA2.2030606@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I was happy that they were NOS, and I fully tested them, and they seem to > work fine. I was nervous that I might have a dead one(DOA), or improper > handling would either damage a chip or worse the expansion board. These > specific boards are likely to be rare(maybe 1/2 dozen users on amiga > sites), and provide 32-bit data for the '030 on the accelerator. And now I remember I need to build a ram tester, my new EPROM burner doesn't tests RAMs :( From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 12:26:36 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:26:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: > I just paid about $5.65 shipped for *each* of my (16) 1Mx4-bit DIPs... > > This was to expand a Microbotics VXL*30 RAM-32, from 2mb to 8mb, which is an > accelerator/ram expansion device for the A500. I've been looking for four 1Mx4 DIPs for my Rejuvenator ( http://amiga.resource.cx/manual/Rejuvenator.pdf ), but I haven't been looking very hard. > The 41256 are much more common and available in comparison. Indeed. I have tubes of them. They are cheap and available now, but in 1986-1987 (when PCs had DIP sockets not SIMM sockets), the demand was higher than the supply. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 29 12:32:09 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 10:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 11:48 AM, Keith Monahan wrote: >> I just paid about $5.65 shipped for *each* of my (16) 1Mx4-bit DIPs... >> >> This was to expand a Microbotics VXL*30 RAM-32, from 2mb to 8mb, which is an >> accelerator/ram expansion device for the A500. > > I've been looking for four 1Mx4 DIPs for my Rejuvenator ( > http://amiga.resource.cx/manual/Rejuvenator.pdf ), but I haven't been > looking very hard. > >> The 41256 are much more common and available in comparison. > > Indeed. I have tubes of them. They are cheap and available now, but > in 1986-1987 (when PCs had DIP sockets not SIMM sockets), the demand > was higher than the supply. > No kidding! I spent $19 each for those things! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 29 12:43:12 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Jarratt RMA) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:43:12 +0100 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember booting standalone backup from those TU58s just to backup the disk. It took forever. It would be nice to find a 730 and re-live those long waits :-) Regards Rob On 29 June 2011 10:19, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 29 June 2011 10:07, wrote: > > > > If Dan was using a MicroVAX in the late 80s it might have been running > > MicroVMS V4.1(?) and it might have come on RX50 (lots of RX50s ...). > > I did a cluster of 3500s using RX50s to install V5, then licences, > DECnet and clustering from TK50 IIRC. They couldn't afford DEC drives > so used Systems Industries instead, biiiiiig boxes! > > > The first system I managed was a MicroVAX II which was running > > MicroVMS V4.5C (had to be V4.5C to be in a LAVC with a VS2000). > > That one was installed from TK50. > > VAX 11/730 running VMS 3.7.... ~20min boot time? That was upgraded to > a uVAX II which I still have in my garage. > > > Until you've used a TU58 to boot S/A BACKUP on a VAX-11/750 > > as part of the VMS V4.7 to VMS V5.0 upgrade, I don't think you've > > lived :-) > > Booting that 11/730 took long enough, the memories are coming flooding > back now! Just checked our CDs at work and the oldest is V5.5. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 12:53:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:53:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: DEC Microfiche index In-Reply-To: from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Jun 28, 11 10:41:07 pm Message-ID: > I wouldn't be surprised to find that some manuals were > only ever available on fiche. Surely most diags were only > available in source form on fiche? I think I found at least one case where there was more information in the fiche manaul than the paper one. It was something like one of the VT5x terminal technical manuials, the fiche version included a commented source listing of the state machine firmware, the paper version didn't. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 13:00:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:00:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Overdue context sensitivity in OCR (Was: Best way to scan 132 In-Reply-To: <20110628224343.K96647@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jun 28, 11 11:25:20 pm Message-ID: > Using another one of the most gross and obvious examples, in general > English text, the letter following a 'Q' is generally a 'U', except in > characters within acronyms or within or part numbers; in political text, I beleive the original poster was talking about a program source listing. The problem, there, of ocurse is variable names. Yes, in English, a single-letter word is likely to be 'A' or 'I' (or maybe 'O'), but single-letter variable names are common (yes, I know you _should_ use descriptive names, but I am sure we've all used 'X' and 'Y' a lot, along with 'I' for a loop couter, 'S' and 'T', etc). It gets worse, of course, if the language only allowed variable names of a single letter or a letter followed by a digit (as did some versions of BASIC). > if a word ends in 'q', the word is so likely to be Iraq that much effort > can be saved by just looking for confirmation of that rather than > struggling with uncertain characters before looking at the word. > Likewise in THIS context, the word ending in 'q' is most likely Compaq. Err, round here a word ending in 'q' is likely to be 'Perq' :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 13:04:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:04:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at Jun 29, 11 12:12:54 pm Message-ID: > > > Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & flip-chips Are you suree it's a CX11? I have a pair of DX11s which sound like the same thing. 8 rows of flip-chip cards, a sparate PSU and IBM power interlock panel. I havea printset for it somewhree and maybe a diagnostic source listing, but not much elase. > and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus controller to talk > to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large 'In' connectors and also 2 > 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which describes some generic IBM info, > but I would like to know what kind of device(s) could (if possible) directly > be connected to such a thing? >From what I could deduce from the printset, this is straictly a slave device on the IBM channel. In optehr words, it will let a PDP11 communciate iwth an IBM machine, but it won't allow you to connect IBM peripherals to the Unibus (you need the IBM machine to act as a channel 'master'). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 29 13:10:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:10:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jun 29, 11 10:19:50 am Message-ID: > VAX 11/730 running VMS 3.7.... ~20min boot time? That was upgraded to > a uVAX II which I still have in my garage. I see... I teally must spend some time and get my 11/730 running again. It's one of only 2 series of VAXen that I would really consider running at home [1] (the other being the 11/780 series, of course, but I don't have space for that...) [1] In that I can repair it. The 11/730 is all unprotected PALs and standard ICs. The only custom aprts are the memory ECC gate arrays, and I would geuss it's posible to kludge something if that foil (even if you then don;t ahve ECC memory). The crazy thing about the 11/730 is the CPU control store. It's DRAM. Which means the CPU has to be pasued every so often to refresh the control store (unlike video RAM, say, you cna't assume that enough locations will be accessed naturally to do this). Whatever were they thinking????!? -tony From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 13:21:42 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:21:42 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com><4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <84C31B504360454FB13F4B1955FB5E8F@portajara> > Indeed. I have tubes of them. They are cheap and available now, but > in 1986-1987 (when PCs had DIP sockets not SIMM sockets), the demand > was higher than the supply. This is something VERY rare in Brazil, go figure :o( From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 29 13:31:01 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 14:31:01 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net> On 6/29/2011 1:26 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I've been looking for four 1Mx4 DIPs for my Rejuvenator ( > http://amiga.resource.cx/manual/Rejuvenator.pdf ), but I haven't been > looking very hard. http://www.amibay.com/showthread.php?t=12078 LTAC (the user @ amibay selling them) is selling them for 17 EUR per four chips. I thought the price a little high, but I really haven't seen an alternative. And was just honestly glad they were available. My transaction was smooth, good communication, etc. Keith From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 29 13:36:08 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:36:08 +0100 Subject: DEC Rainbow 100 available in Malvern, UK Message-ID: Folks, Had an email from someone who has a Rainbow with RD5x, RX50, VR241, keyboard, manuals and software. He'd prefer collection only but there's a chance I can meet him half way at the weekend so I can ship from work but bear in mind this will be a heavy consignment! Let me know and I'll get back to him ASAP. Cheers, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 13:52:54 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:52:54 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com><4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> <4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net> Message-ID: > I thought the price a little high, but I really haven't seen an > alternative. And was just honestly glad they were available. If I teach you to use a 30-pin simm in place of a pair of 411000 it would be useable to you? From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 29 14:14:12 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:14:12 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com><4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> <4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E0B7984.6000205@verizon.net> On 6/29/2011 2:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I thought the price a little high, but I really haven't seen an >> alternative. And was just honestly glad they were available. > > If I teach you to use a 30-pin simm in place of a pair of 411000 it > would be useable to you? Honestly? Now that I have already bought my chips, not really. :) The 1mx4 chip was a 514400. (or 814400, 71C4400, 4C4001, 44400) Isn't 411000 (or 511000) 1M x 1 anyways? How would that work if we need 4-bits wide (truly, 32 or 64 bits wide in total) Someone went so far as to make small adapter boards(SMT->DIP) to take surface mount 1mx4's, which are more available. I thought about these, but they are kinda expensive for what they are (probably same price as I found the right chips for) and involved 640 solder joints for the project. Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 14:26:18 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:26:18 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com><4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net><4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net> <4E0B7984.6000205@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Isn't 411000 (or 511000) 1M x 1 anyways? How would that work if we need > 4-bits wide (truly, 32 or 64 bits wide in total) Sorry, 441000 > Someone went so far as to make small adapter boards(SMT->DIP) to take > surface mount 1mx4's, which are more available. I thought about these, > but they are kinda expensive for what they are (probably same price as I > found the right chips for) and involved 640 solder joints for the project. You can do that boards at home :) From vintagecoder at aol.com Wed Jun 29 14:28:36 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:28:36 +0000 Subject: Anybody running INN? Message-ID: <201106291928.p5TJSeBB019022@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> Hey is anybody running INN, especially under Solaris 10? I am using leafnode under Linux and I'm mostly happy with it but I'm thinking about moving this service off my desktop and running it on a server, probably under Solaris 10. I figured while I am at it maybe I should consider INN because of the option of using a different spool format that is supposed to increase performance significantly. Recovering or moving my news spool which is not that big at around 4G takes forever (not that I do it a lot, but I have done it and it's a pain) and now the startup each time a client connects takes a while. I think I'm outgrowing leafnode. I'm curious how much work it takes to administer INN for a small network to know if it's worth it or just overkill. Specifically, I want to be able to only host groups I want (about 500) including local-only groups rather than doing a complete usenet grab, and I would like to be able to support SSL connections directly. I use stunnel now on Linux but I've had some problems with it on Solaris 10, so if INN supports it directly that would be a plus. If anybody has any comments or suggestions I would appreciate it. Thanks. -- +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Vintage Coder America Online ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz | | | | Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) | | Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390 | | | | Can't find: Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris (Sparc) | | PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS | |---------------------------------------+--------------------------------| | Powered by Slackware 64 & Solaris 10 | Powered by Hercules | |=======================================+================================| | PGP Key 4096R 0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32 Encrypted email preferred | | PGP Fingerprint 5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0 2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32 | +------------------------------------------------------------------------+ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 15:07:55 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:07:55 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: <4E0B7984.6000205@verizon.net> References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> <4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net> <4E0B7984.6000205@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Keith Monahan wrote: > Someone went so far as to make small adapter boards(SMT->DIP) to take > surface mount 1mx4's, which are more available. ?I thought about these, but > they are kinda expensive for what they are (probably same price as I found > the right chips for) and involved 640 solder joints for the project. I have considered that path as well for my Rejuvenator, a more reasonable prospect since there are only 4 chips involved (1M x 16 total), but for the cost of the small boards, I never pursed it further. At least it's only about 80 joints. -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 29 15:12:34 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 16:12:34 -0400 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff In-Reply-To: References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com> <4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net> <4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net> <4E0B7984.6000205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4E0B8732.8020301@verizon.net> On 6/29/2011 4:07 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > At least it's only about 80 joints. > > -ethan That's more than cheech and chong have on a good night. Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 15:11:23 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:11:23 -0300 Subject: Looking for amiga stuff References: <4E0A008E.3060804@gmail.com><4E0B494B.1090604@verizon.net><4E0B6F65.1010808@verizon.net><4E0B7984.6000205@verizon.net> Message-ID: >I have considered that path as well for my Rejuvenator, a more >reasonable prospect since there are only 4 chips involved (1M x 16 >total), but for the cost of the small boards, I never pursed it >further. >At least it's only about 80 joints. I'll look for some schematics of it, maybe a 4 x 32 72-pin SIMM can be used, AFAIK there are 4 separate CAS lines Or, if it is 16 bit, you can use the same 72 pin simm in half :) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 29 15:22:28 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 13:22:28 -0700 Subject: Who's handling cctalk signups now? Message-ID: <4E0B2714.9494.1005AE4@cclist.sydex.com> All, I received an email message from Fred Bossu, who used to be a subscriber to this list, but unsubscribed in 2010 and has been unsuccessfully trying to re-subscribe. If someone can handle this, drop me a line and I'll forward his message to you. --Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 29 15:27:11 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:27:11 +0200 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> >> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & >> flip-chips > > Are you sure it's a CX11? I have a pair of DX11s which sound like the > same thing. 8 rows of flip-chip cards, a separate PSU and IBM power > interlock panel. I have a printset for it somewhere and maybe a > diagnostic source listing, but not much elase. > >> and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus controller to >> talk >> to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large 'In' connectors and also >> 2 >> 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which describes some generic IBM >> info, >> but I would like to know what kind of device(s) could (if possible) >> directly >> be connected to such a thing? > >>From what I could deduce from the printset, this is strictly a slave > device on the IBM channel. In other words, it will let a PDP11 > communicate iwth an IBM machine, but it won't allow you to connect IBM > peripherals to the Unibus (you need the IBM machine to act as a channel > 'master'). Yes, it is as you describe, several horizontally rackmounted backplanes with a dedicated PSU. I have a FS printset and a user manual. Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jun 29 15:47:54 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:47:54 +0200 Subject: Who's handling cctalk signups now? In-Reply-To: <4E0B2714.9494.1005AE4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E0B2714.9494.1005AE4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4E0B8F7A.9030900@update.uu.se> 2011-06-29 22:22, Chuck Guzis skrev: > I received an email message from Fred Bossu, who used to be a > subscriber to this list, but unsubscribed in 2010 and has been > unsuccessfully trying to re-subscribe. > This seems to be a recurring problem with this list. If the problem is lack of moderators I'm volunteering! Kind Regards, Pontus. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 29 16:31:09 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:31:09 +0100 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E0B999D.2030602@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/06/2011 11:12, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & > flip-chips and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus > controller to talk to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large > 'In' connectors and also 2 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which > describes some generic IBM info, but I would like to know what kind > of device(s) could (if possible) directly be connected to such a > thing? Not sure what the limitations are, but Jim Austin (whom you met, once) has two CX-11s and a bunch of cables and probably some some peripherals, as he has at least two IBM mainframes. IIRC one DX-11 has LEDs and the other has lamps, though I think the LED one isn't complete. They came from a nearby university, when they scrapped an Amdahl mainframe and a lot of related DE stuff about 15 years ago. They also had a couple of QBus systems with IBM channel interface -- but they were rather smaller boxes! They were used to hang a couple of PDP-11 systems off the IBM or Amdahl; as I understand it, the PDPs were comms controllers for the mainframes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 16:33:12 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 18:33:12 -0300 Subject: Who's handling cctalk signups now? References: <4E0B2714.9494.1005AE4@cclist.sydex.com> <4E0B8F7A.9030900@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <535B848D4DC04A8B802DB1E4C0FA028B@portajara> > This seems to be a recurring problem with this list. If the problem is > lack of moderators I'm volunteering! I'm second on that. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 29 16:45:21 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:45:21 +0100 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/06/2011 21:27, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & >>> flip-chips >> Are you sure it's a CX11? I have a pair of DX11s which sound like the >> same thing. 8 rows of flip-chip cards, a separate PSU and IBM power >> interlock panel. I have a printset for it somewhere and maybe a >> diagnostic source listing, but not much elase. Come to think of it, that's what was nagging at the back of my mind when I replied earlier. They're DX-11s, the ones Jim has. > Yes, it is as you describe, several horizontally rackmounted backplanes > with a dedicated PSU. I have a FS printset and a user manual. > > Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv Hmm... all the others I've seen, including Jim's two, are in shorter racks, which therefore they almost fill. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 29 16:53:40 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:53:40 -0400 Subject: Anybody running INN? In-Reply-To: <201106291928.p5TJSeBB019022@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> References: <201106291928.p5TJSeBB019022@ims-m11.mx.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E0B9EE4.308@neurotica.com> On 6/29/11 3:28 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote: > Hey is anybody running INN, especially under Solaris 10? I am. > I am using leafnode under Linux and I'm mostly happy with it but I'm > thinking about moving this service off my desktop and running it on a > server, probably under Solaris 10. I figured while I am at it maybe I > should consider INN because of the option of using a different spool > format that is supposed to increase performance significantly. Recovering > or moving my news spool which is not that big at around 4G takes forever > (not that I do it a lot, but I have done it and it's a pain) and now the > startup each time a client connects takes a while. I think I'm outgrowing > leafnode. I'm running it with a ZFS spool with compression enabled. Performance is good. > I'm curious how much work it takes to administer INN for a small network to > know if it's worth it or just overkill. Specifically, I want to be able to > only host groups I want (about 500) including local-only groups rather > than doing a complete usenet grab, and I would like to be able to support > SSL connections directly. I use stunnel now on Linux but I've had some > problems with it on Solaris 10, so if INN supports it directly that would > be a plus. There's some setup work, but that's par for the course for INN. Once it's set up, it seems to just keep rolling along just fine. If you decide to try it, feel free to contact me if you run into trouble, I may be able to help you out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 29 16:59:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 17:59:56 -0400 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv Does anyone have any lamp information on the indicator panels? I have one (courtesy of a list member) that was gifted to me with no lamps and I'd like to do something interesting with it someday (including, most likely, building LED lamp replacements vs buying dozens of $2 bulbs). -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 29 17:38:45 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 15:38:45 -0700 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0B999D.2030602@dunnington.plus.com> References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B999D.2030602@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <3157f7f21a90dbe033b1830fcaa08bc3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jun 29, at 2:31 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 29/06/2011 11:12, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & >> flip-chips and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus >> controller to talk to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large >> 'In' connectors and also 2 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which >> describes some generic IBM info, but I would like to know what kind >> of device(s) could (if possible) directly be connected to such a >> thing? > > Not sure what the limitations are, but Jim Austin (whom you met, once) > has two CX-11s and a bunch of cables and probably some some > peripherals, as he has at least two IBM > mainframes. IIRC one DX-11 has LEDs and the other has lamps, though I > think the LED one isn't complete. They came from a nearby university, > when they scrapped an Amdahl mainframe and a lot of related DE stuff > about 15 years ago. They also had a couple of QBus systems with IBM > channel interface -- but they were rather smaller boxes! They were > used to hang a couple of PDP-11 systems off the IBM or Amdahl; as I > understand it, the PDPs were comms controllers for the mainframes. Just as an example, the MTS system at UBC here used PDP-11s to multiplex the hundreds of ASCII terminals spread around the campus into the IBM/Amdahl mainframe. Probably standard for other MTS systems, too. I don't actually know what the channel<->PDP interface device was, but this sounds as if it could be a typical application for the CX?DX-11. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 29 18:00:23 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 00:00:23 +0100 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E0BAE87.20906@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/06/2011 22:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv > > Does anyone have any lamp information on the indicator panels? I have > one (courtesy of a list member) that was gifted to me with no lamps > and I'd like to do something interesting with it someday (including, > most likely, building LED lamp replacements vs buying dozens of $2 > bulbs). I can't help directly, but I think they are either OL-1 or OL-2. If Ed's unit is full of LEDs, it has probably been converted, most likely in the same manner as one of my PDP-8/Es. That has a DEC mod which consists of snipping (or unsoldering) one end of the trickle resistor, and replacing the lamp with a 5mm LED that has one leg cut very short and fitted with a miniature resistor to limit the current. The resultant LED+resistor fits into the existing lamp sockets. If Ed's is like that, looking at the resistor should tell you the value, which is really all you need to know. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jun 29 19:55:55 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:55:55 -0400 Subject: anyone got an ISO of the first CD version of vms ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0BC99B.5010801@compsys.to> >Huw Davies wrote: >On 29/06/2011, at 7:07 PM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > > >>Until you've used a TU58 to boot S/A BACKUP on a VAX-11/750 >>as part of the VMS V4.7 to VMS V5.0 upgrade, I don't think you've >>lived :-) >> >> >Much more fun was the V2.4 to V3 upgrade on an 11/780. As part of the upgrade there were two sets of microcode floppies and it was really important to get the right one in at the right time. Failure to do so would lead to installation failures - but it took an hour or so to discover that you'd had the wrong one in :-) > Even booting RT-11 on a TU-58 could take over lunch hour. I could be shorter if the take was set up correctly. The most fun I had with a real DEC TU-58 tape drive and real DEC media was setting up a bootable Y2K version of RT-11 on a TU-58 media, connecting the dual external TU-58 tape drive to a PC via a serial port which had been connected to a PC running the PDP-11 E11 emulator on a Pentium 266 MHz system. It took just as long to boot, but it was worth it the first time. That was around 1997. Jerome Fine From vrs at msn.com Wed Jun 29 21:36:12 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 19:36:12 -0700 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks": Wednesday, June 29, 2011 2:59 PM > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: >>> Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv > > Does anyone have any lamp information on the indicator panels? I have > one (courtesy of a list member) that was gifted to me with no lamps > and I'd like to do something interesting with it someday (including, > most likely, building LED lamp replacements vs buying dozens of $2 > bulbs). I have a panel just like that, and mine is (well, was, anyway) full of OL-2. Vince From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jun 29 22:14:15 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:14:15 -0400 Subject: Help - location edge card connector... In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> Anyone know of a source of 36 pin (18 x 2) edge connectors, but with long pin through leads? Just like this, but 36 pin: http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/153291/AMP%20INC%20-%2022-Position%2044-Pin%20Edge%20card%20connector%20WW%20-%201-67031-5/ Thx Curt From cctech at vax-11.org Wed Jun 29 22:16:34 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 21:16:34 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Fluke 1722A/1752A Service Manual available In-Reply-To: <4DDD2295.8050309@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <002901cc1345$0debcc50$29c364f0$@xs4all.nl> <4DDD2295.8050309@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: FCFS, for the cost of shipping it. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 29 22:16:40 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Help - location edge card connector... In-Reply-To: <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone know of a source of 36 pin (18 x 2) edge connectors, but with long pin > through leads? Just like this, but 36 pin: > > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/153291/AMP%20INC%20-%2022-Position%2044-Pin%20Edge%20card%20connector%20WW%20-%201-67031-5/ I've had some luck cutting the ends off connectors and splicing them together. As long as the pins are on a .1" grid, then things should line up just fine. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From g-wright at att.net Wed Jun 29 22:21:42 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:21:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free items in Seattle area Message-ID: <1309404102.74736.YahooMailRC@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The flowing is free for pick up or what ever it takes for shipping - Jerry >>>>>>>>>>>. IBM Items Manuals 8 1/2 x 11 docs IBM 5253 Display station Parts catalog 40 pages 1982 " " " " I/PAR code guide and C/E Log 8 pages 1983 " " " " Maintenance Info. and Analysis procedures 1983 130 pages IBM System/360 Disk Operating system cobol compiler and library, ver 3, Programmers Guide 1971 265 pages IBM system/360 system/370 fortran IV language 100's of pages 1972 IBM System/360 Fortran IV Library Subprograms 100's of pages 1968 Books System/360 assembly language (don stabley) 1967 Book Programing the IBM 1130 (louden and Ledin) 1967 Book IBM system/36 Procedures and commands IBM 1984 Book IBM AS/400 FC 504x Problem Analysis and repair Software IBM SYStem/36 Q&A Data Base 1984 8" floppy IBM System/36 text management 1985 8" floppy x5 IBM System/36 Utilities 1983 8" floppy x2 IBM System/36 Query/36 1985 8" floppy x3 IBM System/36 RPGII 1983 8" floppy x1 IBM 3880 MIN manuals, 8" floppy and fiche printer manual IBM Printers models D12 and D20 . logic, parts and repair 1986 2 volumes 11 x 17 MISC Items 2 Harris main frame boards. Digital computer controls D-112, MSI, 12 Bit Digital computer installation and maintenance 2 volumes with drawings looks to be copies of originals "OK" copies has ME-6485 written on the cover. Mag tape Micro Data Reality SYS-GEN From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 29 22:27:59 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 20:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT (respond offlist): recommendations for static IP DSL Message-ID: <201106300328.p5U3S0Zt018014@floodgap.com> For those of you like me who run a decently sized home server network, I am unhappily having to leave DSL Extreme (who have treated me pretty well) because the new house, despite having AT&T, is apparently not in their service area. I'm trying to find a new DSL ISP that serves Southern California that offers at least 5 static IPs at a decent rate (6/608, etc) and does not block ports as I run a mail server off it. Nationwide ISPs are fine if they are good, better still if I can prequal and compare rates online. So far rejected Speakeasy after the Covad/Megapath debacle. Now looking at Linkline, Pacific Internet and Keyway. Please reply offlist since this is super off-topic. :) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- To err is human -- to forgive is not company policy. ----------------------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jun 29 22:29:10 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 23:29:10 -0400 Subject: Help - location edge card connector... In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4E0BED86.4070009@atarimuseum.com> Thats actually what I'm trying now... David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 29 Jun 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Anyone know of a source of 36 pin (18 x 2) edge connectors, but with >> long pin through leads? Just like this, but 36 pin: >> >> http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/153291/AMP%20INC%20-%2022-Position%2044-Pin%20Edge%20card%20connector%20WW%20-%201-67031-5/ >> > > I've had some luck cutting the ends off connectors and splicing them > together. As long as the pins are on a .1" grid, then things should > line up just fine. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 00:35:12 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 22:35:12 -0700 Subject: Help - location edge card connector... In-Reply-To: <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Anyone know of a source of 36 pin (18 x 2) edge connectors, but with long > pin through leads? ? ?Just like this, but 36 pin: > > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/153291/AMP%20INC%20-%2022-Position%2044-Pin%20Edge%20card%20connector%20WW%20-%201-67031-5/ > Do you need wire wrap pins? If not, would an EDAC 305-036-520-202 work? http://media.digikey.com/photos/EDAC%20Photos/305-036-520-202.jpg http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=EDC305362-ND From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 01:48:02 2011 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 01:48:02 -0500 Subject: Help - location edge card connector... In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> <4E0BEA07.4040304@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: aww hmm hmmm On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 12:35 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > > Anyone know of a source of 36 pin (18 x 2) edge connectors, but with long > > pin through leads? Just like this, but 36 pin: > > > > > http://www.electronicsurplus.com/Item/153291/AMP%20INC%20-%2022-Position%2044-Pin%20Edge%20card%20connector%20WW%20-%201-67031-5/ > > > > Do you need wire wrap pins? If not, would an EDAC 305-036-520-202 work? > http://media.digikey.com/photos/EDAC%20Photos/305-036-520-202.jpg > > http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=EDC305362-ND > From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 30 02:13:53 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:13:53 +0200 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0B999D.2030602@dunnington.plus.com> References: <9c5f1495430ccb0ae9c1087ce986842e.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B999D.2030602@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > On 29/06/2011 11:12, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & >> flip-chips and has also a half sized lights top panel. It's a Unibus >> controller to talk to an IBM bus and tag device. There are 2 large >> 'In' connectors and also 2 'Out' connectors. I do have a manual which >> describes some generic IBM info, but I would like to know what kind >> of device(s) could (if possible) directly be connected to such a >> thing? > > Not sure what the limitations are, but Jim Austin (whom you met, once) > has two CX-11s and a bunch of cables and probably some some > peripherals, as he has at least two IBM > mainframes. IIRC one DX-11 has LEDs and the other has lamps, though I > think the LED one isn't complete. They came from a nearby university, > when they scrapped an Amdahl mainframe and a lot of related DE stuff > about 15 years ago. They also had a couple of QBus systems with IBM > channel interface -- but they were rather smaller boxes! They were used > to hang a couple of PDP-11 systems off the IBM or Amdahl; as I > understand it, the PDPs were comms controllers for the mainframes. > Hi Pete, This unit was connected to an IBM, not sure which model though. This unit was one of 3 (from what I remember) and they apparently were used to exchange some sort of air traffic data between them. This unit has led's, judging by the orange color of them. Regards, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 30 02:18:14 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:18:14 +0200 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <6aa04e8a9a1a3dc659327ac467733e08.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 29/06/2011 21:27, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>>> Ok, I have this CX-11 which is a half rack full of backplanes & >>>> flip-chips >>> Are you sure it's a CX11? I have a pair of DX11s which sound like the >>> same thing. 8 rows of flip-chip cards, a separate PSU and IBM power >>> interlock panel. I have a printset for it somewhere and maybe a >>> diagnostic source listing, but not much elase. > > Come to think of it, that's what was nagging at the back of my mind when > I replied earlier. They're DX-11s, the ones Jim has. > >> Yes, it is as you describe, several horizontally rackmounted backplanes >> with a dedicated PSU. I have a FS printset and a user manual. >> >> Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv > > Hmm... all the others I've seen, including Jim's two, are in shorter > racks, which therefore they almost fill. > Well, I may have misread it and it is a DX-11 and not a CX-11, but I have to check the docs when I have unearthed them after moving the stuff I keep in the new 'game' room. Regards, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 30 02:38:26 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 09:38:26 +0200 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <4E0B9CF1.1080105@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <5ca1e7e1b4c74124ac8efef6d4439596.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Pete Turnbull > wrote: >>> Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv > > Does anyone have any lamp information on the indicator panels? I have > one (courtesy of a list member) that was gifted to me with no lamps > and I'd like to do something interesting with it someday (including, > most likely, building LED lamp replacements vs buying dozens of $2 > bulbs). > >From what I remember after having briefly looked at the schematics, the indicator panel on the DX-11/CX-11 uses a pull-up & pull down resistor and +5v for power. Regards, Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Jun 30 05:48:51 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 10:48:51 +0000 Subject: Anybody running INN? References: <4E0B9EE4.308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <201106301048.p5UAmtk2000541@imr-ma05.mx.aol.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Hey is anybody running INN, especially under Solaris 10? > I am. Hah! I figured you would! > I'm running it with a ZFS spool with compression enabled. Performance is > good. I wouldn't normally think of using compression but I have to admit, if anything deserves it, it has to be usenet text posts. That does sound like a good idea. Glad you mentioned it. >> I'm curious how much work it takes to administer INN for a small network >> to know if it's worth it or just overkill. Specifically, I want to be >> able to only host groups I want (about 500) including local-only groups >> rather than doing a complete usenet grab, and I would like to be able to >> support SSL connections directly. I use stunnel now on Linux but I've >> had some problems with it on Solaris 10, so if INN supports it directly >> that would be a plus. > There's some setup work, but that's par for the course for INN. How major is it? Are we talking a couple of hours for somebody who hasn't used it before, or a week's worth of tweaking, etc. Some things seem to come up and then it takes a while to get them like you want while others seem not to do anything at all until you get everything right. I don't have any examples right off the top of my head but that's kind of what I am wondering. Did you compile it from source (my preference) or get a package from one of the Solaris package sites? I don't have as much luck building stuff on Solaris as I do on Linux. I recently tried to get Emacs 64 bit built on Solaris and finally gave up and installed XEmacs instead. For some reason the XEmacs build just worked while the regular Emacs refused to cooperate. The Solaris path hell seems to get me sometimes. > Once it's set up, it seems to just keep rolling along just fine. If you > decide to try it, feel free to contact me if you run into trouble, I may > be able to help you out. > > -Dave Thanks a lot, I may just do that. From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 06:01:22 2011 From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:01:22 +1000 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? Message-ID: A friend has a well preserved IBM 3430 tape drive (off an IBM System/38) and we speculated whether we could connect this to one of our AS/400s, which we understand is possible via a suitable SPD card. Before we try to usually difficult process of negotiating down the high prices offered by various eBay sellers, does anyone have any surplus bus/tag cables and terminators (for both) which they can offer please? Here are pictures of the IBM 3430 and most of the cables etc: https://picasaweb.google.com/118247290269860741639/IBM3430TapeDrive Willing to pay shipping to Australia. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 12:35:05 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:35:05 +0100 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London Message-ID: Cornerstone 21/80 One of these: http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/cornerstone/color2180.html Anyone interested? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 12:52:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:52:59 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> from "E. Groenenberg" at Jun 29, 11 10:27:11 pm Message-ID: > Yes, it is as you describe, several horizontally rackmounted backplanes > with a dedicated PSU. I have a FS printset and a user manual. > > Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv It l;ooks a lot like mine, but, of course ,it could have different flip-chip cards or differnt wiring. I am _sure_ mine is a DX11 My lamp panel has LEDs like yours, it also has a panel over it to label them. They basically show the values in the unibus-accessible registers. You can use the same type of lamp panel with the RK11-C cotnroller (obviosuly with differnet lablellign). I should move the panel from one of my DX11s to my RK11-C (which get s a lot more use :-)) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 13:03:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:03:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 29, 11 05:59:56 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> Some pictures can be seen at http://tinyurl.com/5w4l6uv > > Does anyone have any lamp information on the indicator panels? I have > one (courtesy of a list member) that was gifted to me with no lamps >From what I remembrm the panels are just lamps and driver transistrors, so the lap voltage is determined by the PSU you use (within reason ;-)). I think DEC used an 8V (probably unregulted) supply line for them in the DX11. One thing to be aware of is that there are no ground pins on the ribbon cables. All are signals. You have to complete the circuit by ensuring the lmap power supply shares its 0-V rail wit hthe sytem logic supply. > and I'd like to do something interesting with it someday (including, > most likely, building LED lamp replacements vs buying dozens of $2 > bulbs). DEC had some official bi-pin LED modules (I think I've seen similar things in the catalogues, but theu're not cheap, particularly if you need 144 of them). You have to dike out the preheat resistor in each driver circuit if you use LEDs. If you use bare LEDs, you have to add a suitable seires resistro (so suit the supply you're running the lamps from). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 12:59:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 18:59:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: <4E0B999D.2030602@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jun 29, 11 10:31:09 pm Message-ID: > Not sure what the limitations are, but Jim Austin (whom you met, once) > has two CX-11s and a bunch of cables and probably some some > peripherals, as he has at least two IBM > mainframes. IIRC one DX-11 has LEDs and the other has lamps, though I > think the LED one isn't complete. They came from a nearby university, > when they scrapped an Amdahl mainframe and a lot of related DE stuff > about 15 years ago. They also had a couple of QBus systems with IBM > channel interface -- but they were rather smaller boxes! They were used > to hang a couple of PDP-11 systems off the IBM or Amdahl; as I > understand it, the PDPs were comms controllers for the mainframes. Mine came from Cambridge University at about the same time, and AFAIK they werre used for much the same purpose -- that is using PDP11s as frontends to an IBM mainfram. The PDP11s were stufferd iwtrh comms cards -- DMC11s, DMR11s, DUP11s, even the odd DJ11 (16 channel asynchronous mux). Others wanted the 11/34 CPUs, but the (interesting to me) comms stuff all came home with me ;-) Both my DX11s have LED panels. A bit later I was offerend an 'IBM compatible ethernet interface'. No, not an ISA/PCI/etc card. A box made by Storagetek to connect to an IBM channel. I have no idea what I'll use it for (not having got an IBM mainframe), but I certainly wasn;t going to miss that! -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 13:22:25 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 14:22:25 -0400 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: <540d9cb3a5d19a167b044b0cff7598ef.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > You can use the same type of lamp panel with the RK11-C cotnroller > (obviosuly with differnet lablellign). I should move the panel from one > of my DX11s to my RK11-C (which get s a lot more use :-)) That is what I intend to do with my panel - I already have the RK11-C but have never taken the time to clean and restore it (I've been using drives on my RKV11D). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 30 13:50:40 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:50:40 -0700 Subject: Seeking surplus IBM bus / tag cables and terminators? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0CC580.3010304@bitsavers.org> On 6/30/11 4:01 AM, Nigel Williams wrote: > does anyone have any > surplus bus/tag cables and terminators (for both) which they can offer > please? > The Computer History Museum is looking for a short set as well. We ended up using a chunk of 1401 tape cable in the exhibit because we couldn't find a set. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 30 13:34:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 30, 11 02:22:25 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 1:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > You can use the same type of lamp panel with the RK11-C cotnroller > > (obviosuly with differnet lablellign). I should move the panel from one > > of my DX11s to my RK11-C (which get s a lot more use :-)) > > That is what I intend to do with my panel - I already have the RK11-C > but have never taken the time to clean and restore it (I've been using > drives on my RKV11D). Yes, there are 4 edge connectors in the RX11-C backplane to take the cables from this panel. It should just plug in (but do make sure you have a common 0V rail :-)). Was it used with any other peripherals? If so, which ones? I would assume they that to be early-ish devices made from flip chip cards. -tony > > -ethan > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 30 15:36:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:36:33 -0700 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jun 2011 at 18:35, Liam Proven wrote: > Cornerstone 21/80 > One of these: > http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/cornerstone/color2180.html The specs as published seem to indicate that this is a multisync unit, not fixed-sync: H Freq/ V Freq: 31-106 Khz / 50-150 Hz I'm a little puzzled as to why they call it a fixed-frequency monitor. Perhaps because it has a 13W3 connector? --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 30 15:51:44 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 21:51:44 +0100 Subject: Usefullness of a CX-11 controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E0CE1E0.5070300@dunnington.plus.com> On 30/06/2011 18:59, Tony Duell wrote: > Mine came from Cambridge University at about the same time, and AFAIK > they werre used for much the same purpose -- that is using PDP11s as > frontends to an IBM mainfram. The PDP11s were stufferd iwtrh comms cards > -- DMC11s, DMR11s, DUP11s, even the odd DJ11 (16 channel asynchronous > mux). Others wanted the 11/34 CPUs, but the (interesting to me) comms > stuff all came home with me ;-) Coincidence or not I don't know, but the two at Leeds were also on 11/34s, stuffed with serial I/O, mostly Emulex CS111s, and booting off a well-worn RX02. I got one of the 11/34s and some serial cards, plus a few bits and pieces. > Both my DX11s have LED panels. Jim has, IIRC, one of each. > A bit later I was offerend an 'IBM compatible ethernet interface'. No, > not an ISA/PCI/etc card. A box made by Storagetek to connect to an IBM > channel. I have no idea what I'll use it for (not having got an IBM > mainframe), but I certainly wasn;t going to miss that! Leeds also had a couple of brown boxes which were essentially 11/73 machines (each in a 3U-high third-party cabinet) with a rather odd quad QBus ethernet card made by Camtec (as in "Camtec PAD" or "JNT PAD"), some synchronous serial I/O, and some other IBM-related interface, I think. I've still got one of those Ethernet cards somewhere, never found a driver for it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 30 19:57:16 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 01:57:16 +0100 Subject: Free 21" fixed-sync monitor in London In-Reply-To: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4E0C7BE1.17278.10F11BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 30 June 2011 21:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jun 2011 at 18:35, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Cornerstone 21/80 >> One of these: >> http://www.monitorworld.com/Monitors/cornerstone/color2180.html > > The specs as published seem to indicate that this is a multisync > unit, not fixed-sync: > > H Freq/ V Freq: ? ? ? ? ? ? 31-106 Khz / 50-150 Hz > > I'm a little puzzled as to why they call it a fixed-frequency > monitor. ?Perhaps because it has a 13W3 connector? I know - I wondered at that. I got it with a vintage Mac. Can't get a picture out of it with a PC, even at an offically-supported res. Odd... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From david at classiccomputing.com Thu Jun 30 21:25:39 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 22:25:39 -0400 Subject: I'm in a movie! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03EF2030-F4B7-4AF5-B7F1-03726B052657@classiccomputing.com> Well, one of my old computers is the star in an upcoming short film called "Base Code." It's a 1980 Radio Shack TRS-80 Model III. I made a little documentary. You may not want to watch all 20 minutes, but definitely watch the last 2 minutes. Look for me in some places too! http://gallery.me.com/dgreelish/100077 Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 30 21:38:09 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 19:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm in a movie! In-Reply-To: <03EF2030-F4B7-4AF5-B7F1-03726B052657@classiccomputing.com> References: <03EF2030-F4B7-4AF5-B7F1-03726B052657@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011, David Greelish wrote: > Well, one of my old computers is the star in an upcoming short film > called "Base Code." It's a 1980 Radio Shack TRS-80 Model III. I made a > little documentary. You may not want to watch all 20 minutes, but > definitely watch the last 2 minutes. Look for me in some places too! > http://gallery.me.com/dgreelish/100077 > Nothing is worth installing QuickTime to watch, sorry. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.