From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 1 12:24:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 18:24:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1DF40B.9021.1224033@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 31, 10 03:17:31 pm Message-ID: > > On 31 Dec 2010 at 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I > > asusme the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the > > bitstream form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? > > No. The heads in a double-sided drive are offset from each other by > a non-integral multiple of inter-track spacing. Yes, I realised that all too late... next time I will think before posting... I then thought that if the offset was close to an odd multiple of half the track spacing, then perhaps you could use a drive with twice as many cylinders nad read the odd rather than even tracks (e.g. use an 80 cylinder 5.25" drive to read a40 cylinder flippy). Alas, that doesn't work either. IIRC, the side 1 head is offset towards the spindle, so you can't move the head out far enouth to read the otuermost sylinders on side 1 of a flippy. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 1 12:35:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 18:35:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: <3531154f7aa15035afa7e0bc9079881a@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Dec 31, 10 03:37:27 pm Message-ID: > > On 2010 Dec 31, at 2:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Happy new decade to all members of this list and their families. > > > > [Yes, I do start counting from 0 normally. But the calendar doesn't > > :-(, > > and thus I think that new centrieies, decades, etc start with years > > ending in '1'.] > > New year, yes; but (for the other opinion) the decade started last year. I beg to dffer.. It is a histoirical fact that at least in the UK, the start of the 20th centruy was celebrated at the start of 1901. If you want to have the new millennium starting in 2000 (and thus a new decade starting in 2010), you ahve to be able to justify having only 99 years in the 20th century. Yes, I feel there should have been a yeas 0. And for that matter the months and days of the month should start with 0 too (just as hours, minuts, seconds all start at 0 at midnight). But it's not done that way. So I shall stick to claiming that this is the start of a new decade... A little over 11 yaars ago, I came up with 2 definitions : Millennium (latin Mille Annus) : A period of 1000 years, in particular the yeas 1..1000, 1001..2000, 2001..3000, etc Millenium (latin Mille Anus) : 1000 people making a right arse of themselves by celebrating a new millennium in the wrong year. > > The calendar doesn't really denote an absolute time lapse, it just > provides labels to points in time. The epoch is arbitrary (who knows > what really happened in year 1). OK, I might as well wish you a happy new year' on the 19th March at 15:23:10. A period of 365.25 days starts then after all :-) > > As such, the absolute year or decade or century is meaningless. For For that matter a new yrear is meaningless. AFAIK January 1st doesn't correspond exactly to any special point in the earth's orbit. > what it matters at all, it's all about fun and it's more fun to give > special celebration to 9's rolling over into 0's, rather than a Some people really do have an odd idea of fun... > solitary 1 showing up on the right. Does anyone watch for the car > odometer to roll from 10000 to 10001? No, they watch for 9999 to roll Actually, I might. Or I might for a counting devive that I'd just reassambled. To make sure a second carry doesn't occur (with some mechancial coutnters thic cna happen if the star wheels ar emisaligned). > into 10000. Is it exciting because it starts or completes 10000 miles > or kilometres? No, it's just fun to see all the 9's rolling into 0's. In any case, a car odometer is a bad example. They do start from 0. They change to 00001 after the first mile/km. And so on. So going from 09999 1o 10000 idos occur after 10000 miles/km > > Similarly, for general comprehension it makes more sense to group 2010 > with 2011..2019 rather than with 2001..2009; or to associate 2020..2029 > together rather than 2011..2020 together, etc. It may make more sense (and I prefer to start counting from 0 in almost all cases), but alas it's no the way the calendar is set up. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 1 12:42:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 18:42:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <0F734312-348D-416B-86DA-263805CC9284@bellsouth.net> from "Geoff Oltmans" at Dec 31, 10 06:11:54 pm Message-ID: > > Isn't there also an issue of recording direction of flippy discs being oppos= > ite of expected? Or are disc controllers smart enough to account for this? S= > eems like this would also affect interleave as well as the per-sector data r= > eversal. Yes, if you're usinga normal disk controller chip. But the diskferret doesn't do that AFAIK, it reads and stores the raw bitstream from the drive which is later analysed by software. So it would be possible to use said software to reverse the bitstream before decoding it. AFAIK no disk controller chip could ever handle a reversed bitstream, though There have been apocryphal stories of large ('washing machine') hard drifes spinning backwards, Some such drives have 3 phase motors, and of course if you swap roiund a pair of the phase wires, the motor runs backwards. Such drives, apparently, pass all diagnostics, but the packs can't be read on other drives. I am not sure I believe said stories, I would think the heads would be vey unstable under such conditions and would crash very easily. Thinking about it, I am suprised no manufacturer ever reversed the spidnle direction of their floppy drives as a way to prevend disk interchangeablility wiht other machines. At least one manufacturer believed that disk interchanagability would lead to software piracy and did various silly things to try to prevent it. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 1 14:12:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 12:12:06 -0800 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D1DF40B.9021.1224033@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec 31, 10 03:17:31 pm, Message-ID: <4D1F1A16.5086.76927E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2011 at 18:24, Tony Duell wrote: > I then thought that if the offset was close to an odd multiple of half > the track spacing, then perhaps you could use a drive with twice as > many cylinders nad read the odd rather than even tracks (e.g. use an > 80 cylinder 5.25" drive to read a40 cylinder flippy). Alas, that > doesn't work either. IIRC, the side 1 head is offset towards the > spindle, so you can't move the head out far enouth to read the > otuermost sylinders on side 1 of a flippy. Since we're talking about 5.25" "flippies" (although 8" flippies existed and were sold by established manufacturers), a Drivetec drive might do the trick, if one wanted to rework the microcontroller firmware. Since the Drivetec is essentially a closed-loop servo system with two motors for positioning (one coarse, the other fine), it might be possible to hit the opposite-side tracks correctly. Of course, there aren't many Drivetec drives out in the wild as they were never very popular. I also don't know if "half-stepping" the positioner on a conventional drive would work either, as it would take a rework of the drive electronics. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 1 15:15:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 21:15:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1F1A16.5086.76927E@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 1, 11 12:12:06 pm Message-ID: > > On 1 Jan 2011 at 18:24, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I then thought that if the offset was close to an odd multiple of half > > the track spacing, then perhaps you could use a drive with twice as > > many cylinders nad read the odd rather than even tracks (e.g. use an > > 80 cylinder 5.25" drive to read a40 cylinder flippy). Alas, that > > doesn't work either. IIRC, the side 1 head is offset towards the > > spindle, so you can't move the head out far enouth to read the > > otuermost sylinders on side 1 of a flippy. > > Since we're talking about 5.25" "flippies" (although 8" flippies > existed and were sold by established manufacturers), a Drivetec drive > might do the trick, if one wanted to rework the microcontroller > firmware. Since the Drivetec is essentially a closed-loop servo > system with two motors for positioning (one coarse, the other fine), > it might be possible to hit the opposite-side tracks correctly. You might manage to fiddle with the positioner control circuity of an Epson SD320 series drive too. That's the voice-coil one with an optical feedabck syustem somewhat similar to the RK05. > > Of course, there aren't many Drivetec drives out in the wild as they > were never very popular. Howevr, if the side 1 head is offset towards the speindle (as I think it is), you'd have to step the caarriage out beyond the noraml cylinder 0 position to get the side 1 head over cylinder 0 on the flippy. And that, I suspect, would mean modifications ot the drive. > > I also don't know if "half-stepping" the positioner on a conventional > drive would work either, as it would take a rework of the drive > electronics. I was thinking that if the offset was close to a multiple of half the normal track spacing (and I think it is). you might be able to use, say, an 80 cylinder drive to read a 40 cylinder flippy. Noramlly the 40 cylinder positions align with the even-numbered 80 cylinder positons. So half a cylinder offset would mean they corresonded to the odd-numbered 80 cylinder positions. So you probably could read some of the cylinders that way But it doesn't help with the fact that uoui'd have to move the carriage out beoyond the cylidner 0 postion. -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jan 1 16:24:23 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 22:24:23 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D1FA997.506@philpem.me.uk> On 01/01/11 18:42, Tony Duell wrote: > At least one manufacturer > believed that disk interchanagability would lead to software piracy and > did various silly things to try to prevent it. A lot of software vendors seem to think like that... "OH NOES! If someone can read our discs then they can copy them!!!" "But if they can't read them, they can't use the software." "Yes but if they can READ them, they can COPY them!" I've given up dealing with companies which insist on internet activation and all that crap -- instead I try and find a competing product which isn't similarly encumbered. Usually it's possible to find one which uses a name-and-serial-number lockout (which is fine IMO, I don't intend to change my name any time soon), or a key-file (similar idea, the file is effectively the serial number). I could mention some of the lovely "software protection" schemes I've dealt with, but really... there just isn't the space... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 16:38:41 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 20:38:41 -0200 Subject: Discferret questions References: <4D1FA997.506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > I've given up dealing with companies which insist on internet activation > and all that crap -- instead I try and find a competing product which I just hack it :) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jan 1 17:00:27 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 23:00:27 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D1FA997.506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D1FB20B.4000603@philpem.me.uk> On 01/01/11 22:38, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> I've given up dealing with companies which insist on internet >> activation and all that crap -- instead I try and find a competing >> product which > > I just hack it :) I used to do that, until I found I had more fun hacking off the copy protection than I did using the application itself :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 17:18:31 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 21:18:31 -0200 Subject: Discferret questions References: <4D1FA997.506@philpem.me.uk> <4D1FB20B.4000603@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5A3044DA88004FDFB0F666CF9E9639D3@portajara> >>> I've given up dealing with companies which insist on internet >>> activation and all that crap -- instead I try and find a competing >>> product which >> I just hack it :) > I used to do that, until I found I had more fun hacking off the copy > protection than I did using the application itself :) I do reward the developer, but I do hate when I'm treated as a thief. I bought a software to hack the TPM chip of the IBM Thinkpad. A client had it locked, and needed to unlock it. The software is good enough, and I PAID for it. But the developer locks the software to my machine and, if I change the motherboard (it happens with time) or format the HD, I loose the key that makes it work, and the developer DOES NOT send me a new key, in any case. Do you think I'll use a 120GB HD for the rest of my life? And an older motherboard? Sorry developer, I hacked your program, and now it is unlocked. I'll not give it even for registered users, but I'll not loose what I paid for you. I'm the buyer, not the one who pirated it. :o) From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jan 1 17:55:22 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 23:55:22 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <5A3044DA88004FDFB0F666CF9E9639D3@portajara> References: <4D1FA997.506@philpem.me.uk> <4D1FB20B.4000603@philpem.me.uk> <5A3044DA88004FDFB0F666CF9E9639D3@portajara> Message-ID: <4D1FBEEA.7030107@philpem.me.uk> On 01/01/11 23:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I do reward the developer, but I do hate when I'm treated as a thief. Exactly! I used to use a RAW image converter which was included with a memory card I bought. The developers re-wrote it for V4, based it on .NET and gave a few V3 users (myself included) a free upgrade. Of course, this broke Linux support (they never supported Linux, but that never stopped it from working). The icing on the cake? It phones home every so often. Turns out the activation server has a "remote kill" option. They RK'd all the V3 keys... IMO, this falls under the same category as Sony removing Other OS from the PS3. Nobody could care less about the security, but once Sony pissed off the Linux users (and hackers), everyone started looking long and hard at the crypto. End result? It's now pretty much cracked black and blue. The firmware DSA keys have been recovered, signatures defeated... game over. > I bought a software to hack the TPM chip of the IBM Thinkpad. A client > had it locked, and needed to unlock it. The software is good enough, and > I PAID for it. But the developer locks the software to my machine and, > if I change the motherboard (it happens with time) or format the HD, I > loose the key that makes it work, and the developer DOES NOT send me a > new key, in any case. OK, tying a licence to a hard drive... that's stupid. Maybe it was OK *years* ago, but it sure as hell ain't OK now! In the past three years, I've swapped: - A Seagate 7200.11 which died. It and its mate were replaced with Western Digital RE2s after Seagate refused to provide warranty service on the 7200.11. Did I mention the Seagates packed in because of a firmware fault? (yes, I fixed them both, thank $DEITY for FTDI USB-TTL232 cables). - Laptop got a HDD upgrade -- from a Seagate 80GB to a Western Digital Caviar Black 250GB. - A WD 500GB in my HTPC -- upgraded to a 1TB WD GreenPower. Inaudible except in a soundproof chamber. - Two 500GB Seagates in the server. Upgraded to 1.5TB WD GreenPowers after the 7200.11 debacle. And that's just the ones I can remember... and doesn't count the number of times I've formatted one or more of the drives and reinstalled WinXP. I've also lost count of the number of times I've had to call MS to get my copy of XP Pro reactivated... part of the reason I'm not planning on upgrading my desktop machine to Win7 is because I don't feel like dealing with that bullcrap any more. > I'm the buyer, not the one who pirated it. :-) "Circumvention for interoperability: I bought new hardware, and the license says 'one user', not 'one machine'." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 1 17:59:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Jan 2011 15:59:01 -0800 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <5A3044DA88004FDFB0F666CF9E9639D3@portajara> References: , <5A3044DA88004FDFB0F666CF9E9639D3@portajara> Message-ID: <4D1F4F45.29478.1465467@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2011 at 21:18, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > I bought a software to hack the TPM chip of the IBM Thinkpad. A > client had it locked, and needed to unlock it. The software is good > enough, and I PAID for it. But the developer locks the software to my > machine and, if I change the motherboard (it happens with time) or > format the HD, I loose the key that makes it work, and the developer > DOES NOT send me a new key, in any case. It's the way of the future. Take a look at the TOS with some of the newer mobile devices. --Chuck From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 1 18:06:15 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sat, 1 Jan 2011 22:06:15 -0200 Subject: Discferret questions References: , <5A3044DA88004FDFB0F666CF9E9639D3@portajara> <4D1F4F45.29478.1465467@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8732E01BEC654D878AFB60A1F0C33E5C@portajara> > It's the way of the future. Take a look at the TOS with some of the > newer mobile devices. Remote deactivation? I'll surely have it removed before I use it :) Mind why I don't have an iSomething beyond an old ipod? :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 2 02:16:55 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 00:16:55 -0800 Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 1, at 10:35 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> On 2010 Dec 31, at 2:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Happy new decade to all members of this list and their families. >>> >>> [Yes, I do start counting from 0 normally. But the calendar doesn't >>> :-(, >>> and thus I think that new centrieies, decades, etc start with years >>> ending in '1'.] >> >> New year, yes; but (for the other opinion) the decade started last >> year. > > I beg to dffer.. > > It is a histoirical fact that at least in the UK, the start of the 20th > centruy was celebrated at the start of 1901. If you want to have the > new > millennium starting in 2000 (and thus a new decade starting in 2010), > you > ahve to be able to justify having only 99 years in the 20th century. ... > Millenium (latin Mille Anus) : 1000 people making a right arse of > themselves by celebrating a new millennium in the wrong year. Well, it is now an 'historical fact' that hundreds of millions to billions of people celebrated 1999->2000 as the millennial turnover, far more than 2000->2001. Those people make no more an arse of themselves than the people of 'historical fact' who celebrated the beginning of the 20th century at 1901. As 'historical facts', neither proves the 'correctness' of where the decade/century/millenial transition is deemed to occur, although if quantity of people celebrating is the measure, I'm sure 1999->2000 wins. The 2000 celebrators don't have to justify anything, they just chose when to celebrate. If you wish justification though, they can just declare the 1901 celebrators as arses, just as you do of the 2000 celebrators; or make a correction to the century and celebratory practices, much as numerous corrections to the calendar have been made over the centuries. (Over the ages, some years have (been declared to have) over 400 days.) > Yes, I feel there should have been a yeas 0. And for that matter the > months and days of the month should start with 0 too (just as hours, > minuts, seconds all start at 0 at midnight). But it's not done that > way. > > So I shall stick to claiming that this is the start of a new decade... > > A little over 11 yaars ago, I came up with 2 definitions : > > Millennium (latin Mille Annus) : A period of 1000 years, in particular > the yeas 1..1000, 1001..2000, 2001..3000, etc >> The calendar doesn't really denote an absolute time lapse, it just >> provides labels to points in time. The epoch is arbitrary (who knows >> what really happened in year 1). > > OK, I might as well wish you a happy new year' on the 19th March at > 15:23:10. A period of 365.25 days starts then after all :-) >> >> As such, the absolute year or decade or century is meaningless. For > > For that matter a new yrear is meaningless. AFAIK January 1st doesn't > correspond exactly to any special point in the earth's orbit. The beginning/end of a year is in relationship to the winter solstice - a natural phenomenon of significant consequence to humans and human society - albeit displaced slightly for historical reasons (cumulative error before a better way of dealing with the error was developed). >> what it matters at all, it's all about fun and it's more fun to give >> special celebration to 9's rolling over into 0's, rather than a > > Some people really do have an odd idea of fun... > It is odder to be celebrating (and pedantically insisting on the correctness of) some anniversary from some arbitrary point in the distant past, a point of accepted inaccuracy in relation to the event it is supposed to mark, and that event being of disputed, limited, or disagreed-upon relevance. >> solitary 1 showing up on the right. Does anyone watch for the car >> odometer to roll from 10000 to 10001? No, they watch for 9999 to roll > > Actually, I might. Or I might for a counting devive that I'd just > reassambled. To make sure a second carry doesn't occur (with some > mechancial coutnters thic cna happen if the star wheels ar > emisaligned). >> into 10000. Is it exciting because it starts or completes 10000 miles >> or kilometres? No, it's just fun to see all the 9's rolling into 0's. > > In any case, a car odometer is a bad example. They do start from 0. > They > change to 00001 after the first mile/km. And so on. So going from 09999 > 1o 10000 idos occur after 10000 miles/km Which is why I made the suggestion of the 0/1 origin not being of great concern to those excitedly watching the odometer roll over. >> Similarly, for general comprehension it makes more sense to group 2010 >> with 2011..2019 rather than with 2001..2009; or to associate >> 2020..2029 >> together rather than 2011..2020 together, etc. > > It may make more sense (and I prefer to start counting from 0 in almost > all cases), but alas it's no the way the calendar is set up. As I was pointing out, how the calendar is set up (year 1 instead of year 0) at this distance in time is of little relevance, at least for celebratory purposes or labelling of decades. From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jan 2 10:32:48 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 08:32:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: MakeDataExecutable and PowerPC Message-ID: <201101021632.p02GWmIO013894@floodgap.com> I know we have some old(er) Apple developers out there, so I wanted to ask: does MakeDataExecutable have a particular penalty? I'm working on a PowerPC nanojit for Firefox so that Firefox's JavaScript tracer can emit PPC instructions. It works, but it takes a huge initial penalty, more than I would have expected. The pure-C++ JavaScript interpreter beats it on many tasks. I'm sure that part of that is trying to beat gcc's very good PPC optimizer, but I want to eliminate other variables. It also seemed that PPC mulli is still slow compared to unrolled naked adds and bitshifts, and naturally the Firefox bytecodes do not have support for fused multiply-add or other things that POWER does well. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "In God We Trust (All Others We Monitor)" ---------------------------------- From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Sun Jan 2 11:29:21 2011 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 09:29:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy New Decade Message-ID: <271824.82368.qm@web81006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Off by one errors are so much fun to debug... Celebrate whatever you want, whenever you want. Just keep in mind that in the US, the official timekeepers, NIST have said that the third millennium, 21st century and the first decade of the 21st century all official started with 2001. Of course we could just hold all our new year celebrations until Feb 3rd for Chinese New Year... Or better yet, just celebrate all over again. After all it is just an excuse to party mostly anyway right? ;) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 2 12:23:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:23:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1FA997.506@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 1, 11 10:24:23 pm Message-ID: > > On 01/01/11 18:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > At least one manufacturer > > believed that disk interchanagability would lead to software piracy and > > did various silly things to try to prevent it. > > A lot of software vendors seem to think like that... > > "OH NOES! If someone can read our discs then they can copy them!!!" > "But if they can't read them, they can't use the software." > "Yes but if they can READ them, they can COPY them!" Yes, but remember a lot of software vendors (at last back when I was buying software) used to have disclaimers which said the sftware may not work correctlym and that the files on the enclosed media may differ from thase advertised. I susect that supplying unreadable disks would actually have met those terms... > > I've given up dealing with companies which insist on internet activation > and all that crap -- instead I try and find a competing product which > isn't similarly encumbered. Usually it's possible to find one which uses I noramll manage to find an open-source program for anything I want to do now. No such problems _at all_ > a name-and-serial-number lockout (which is fine IMO, I don't intend to > change my name any time soon), or a key-file (similar idea, the file is > effectively the serial number). Serial number of what? If it erads some kind of unique ID from the hardware 1[] then I have major problems with that. Hardware fails and needs to be reparied or replaced. At wich point the serial numbr may well not be the same any more... [1] I have a systems with machine readable serial numbers for the CPU/IO board, The memory/video board, and the cabinet. Fortunately I've not met any software for this machine that makes use of said serial numbers. > I could mention some of the lovely "software protection" schemes I've > dealt with, but really... there just isn't the space... FWIW, I don't pirate. I beleive that authors deserve their payments. But equally, unless I agree in adcance to a tiem-limited license (e.g. I can run this program for 1 year only), then I expect to be able to keep backups. I also expect to bne able to carry on running it on whatever hardware I choose for as long as I want to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 2 12:27:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:27:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1F4F45.29478.1465467@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 1, 11 03:59:01 pm Message-ID: > It's the way of the future. Take a look at the TOS with some of the > newer mobile devices. That is one reason I do not have such a device, and would not accept one ecven as a gift. Period. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 2 12:49:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:49:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 2, 11 00:16:55 am Message-ID: > > It is a histoirical fact that at least in the UK, the start of the 20th > > centruy was celebrated at the start of 1901. If you want to have the > > new > > millennium starting in 2000 (and thus a new decade starting in 2010), > > you > > ahve to be able to justify having only 99 years in the 20th century. > ... > > Millenium (latin Mille Anus) : 1000 people making a right arse of > > themselves by celebrating a new millennium in the wrong year. > > Well, it is now an 'historical fact' that hundreds of millions to > billions of people celebrated 1999->2000 as the millennial turnover, The change in centurt has been celebrate at the start of years ending '01' for quite some time ... > far more than 2000->2001. Those people make no more an arse of And every one of them was _wrong_. Look, you can celebrate whenever you like (but I wish you'd do it in a way that doesn't upsed me, and more importantly my cats), and you're welcome to delebrate multiple carries in the year_increement if you like. But don't call it a new millennium. > themselves than the people of 'historical fact' who celebrated the > beginning of the 20th century at 1901. > > As 'historical facts', neither proves the 'correctness' of where the > decade/century/millenial transition is deemed to occur, although if > quantity of people celebrating is the measure, I'm sure 1999->2000 > wins. I jhave never accepted, and will never accept a majority vote for soemthing like this. > > The 2000 celebrators don't have to justify anything, they just chose Id fedepnds on wwhat they are celebrating. If they want to celebrate a triple carry, that;s fine. If they claim to be celebratign a new millenium (as it's normally defined) then they are plain wrong. AFAIK ther ewas no 'new century' celebration at the start of 1900. Or 1800. The 19th centruy ran from 1801 to 1900 inclusing. If you want the 20th centruy to run from 1901 to 1999 incluse, you had better be able to justivy how a century can contain 99 years. > > >> The calendar doesn't really denote an absolute time lapse, it just > >> provides labels to points in time. The epoch is arbitrary (who knows > >> what really happened in year 1). > > > > OK, I might as well wish you a happy new year' on the 19th March at > > 15:23:10. A period of 365.25 days starts then after all :-) > >> > >> As such, the absolute year or decade or century is meaningless. For > > > > For that matter a new yrear is meaningless. AFAIK January 1st doesn't > > correspond exactly to any special point in the earth's orbit. > > The beginning/end of a year is in relationship to the winter solstice - > a natural phenomenon of significant consequence to humans and human > society - albeit displaced slightly for historical reasons (cumulative > error before a better way of dealing with the error was developed). As I said, Janurary 1st has no particular cignificance. It's close to the winter solstice, but it is not the winter solstice. It is aribtrary. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 2 12:58:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:58:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: <271824.82368.qm@web81006.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "nospam212-cctalk@yahoo.com" at Jan 2, 11 09:29:21 am Message-ID: > > Off by one errors are so much fun to debug... > > Celebrate whatever you want, whenever you want. Indeed, but please don;'t give it the wrong neame. And even more, don't compalin about people who want to celebrate things at the right time. > > Just keep in mind that in the US, the official timekeepers, NIST have > said that the third millennium, 21st century and the first decade of the > 21st century all official started with 2001. As did the Royal Ovbservatory over here. Even thoguh they had a countdown clock to 1st of January 2000 which made them look ratehr foolish in the eyes of some people over here. -tony From scheefj at netscape.net Sun Jan 2 15:24:14 2011 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 16:24:14 -0500 Subject: FS: Texas Instruments POS terminal In-Reply-To: <9jkph6tep2hbd0ad8s6rmp6ovpeaik54ih@4ax.com> References: <9jkph6tep2hbd0ad8s6rmp6ovpeaik54ih@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4D20ECFE.6070702@netscape.net> Charles, To the right collector, this is a piece of history. Where are you located? Do you have any documentation? Jim On 12/30/2010 2:08 PM, Charles wrote: > No, not that kind of POS, but "Point Of Sale"! > > http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/P2150003.jpg > http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/P2150005.jpg > http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/P2150004.jpg > > It has an 8080A processor, a vacuum fluorescent display, keypad, > 20 LED's, and line-operated (120 ac) power supply. > > I bought it from Jameco many, many (25+) years ago and am tired of > tripping over it. I hate to strip it just for the 8080A and EPROMs > since it looks like a good foundation for... something. > > Would someone like it for the bargain price of $7.00 plus the > actual shipping from US zip 65775? > > thanks > Charles From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Sun Jan 2 11:05:37 2011 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 18:05:37 +0100 Subject: Wanted: VAX Systems and Options Summary Brochures Message-ID: Has anyone got "VAX Systems and Options Summary" brochures? I've got the one from 1981 covering VAX-11/780 and VAX-11/750 systems. I'm looking for older/newer ones. Regards Ulli From wedge1020 at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 15:13:43 2011 From: wedge1020 at gmail.com (Matthew Haas) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 16:13:43 -0500 Subject: Cleaning out: VIC-20, TI-99/4a & misc. parts Message-ID: <4D20EA87.7020603@gmail.com> Good day, I've been scanning the message archives off-and-on and finally took the plunge and subscribed. Please let me know if my posting is out of place. I have been a computing enthusiast for several years, starting with the 8-bit game console genre and migrating through some of the 90s RISC "big iron", and finally arriving at a point where I realize I have a storage locker filled with stuff that hasn't been used in quite some time. Not wanting to be selfish and keep it all to myself, I'm attempting to finally clean out my inventory and disperse to good homes. Perhaps a similar story and I'm late to this parade, but it's worth a shot. My intent is to chip away at it slowly (the pile is large, and there's no way I can haul it out to my living room to do a complete inventory). Preference is: Make an offer. I'd prefer to have some shipping costs covered at the very least. I'm in upstate NY (14830), and have easy access to either the USPS or UPS for shipping. The first batch includes: - 1x Commodore VIC-20 unit (no cables or adapters in this box). Should work, cosmetically decent (slight yellowing, with what looks like a small warped area in the plastic from some former owner setting a cigarette on it) - 1x Commodore C2N CASSETTE drive (attached cable). Should also work, I used to use it to load various BASIC games (in another box). - 1x TI-99/4a computer (silver with black trim). Includes a TI Extended BASIC command module cartridge. No other cables or adapters. - 1x The User's Guide to Texas Instruments: TI-99/4A Computer, Software, and Peripherals spiral bound manual. - 1x slightly beat up (but empty) box to the Atari 400/800 Computing Language Assembler Editor. Includes unmarked Atari registration mailer and warranty card (both good condition). -Matthew From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 2 19:22:30 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 01:22:30 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2124D6.5030004@philpem.me.uk> On 02/01/11 18:23, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, but remember a lot of software vendors (at last back when I was > buying software) used to have disclaimers which said the sftware may not > work correctlym and that the files on the enclosed media may differ from > thase advertised. I susect that supplying unreadable disks would actually > have met those terms... You mean like this? THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT HOLDER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE. In other words: "This software might not work, and if it doesn't, you can't sue us. Ha ha ha." Usually law > contract terms. AIUI (and IANAL), you generally can't sign away legal rights in a contract, and adding terms like that is a great way to get the whole contract nulled and voided. > I noramll manage to find an open-source program for anything I want to do > now. No such problems _at all_ I usually manage to find OSS/FS alternatives for most things, but there are exceptions: - Cadsoft EAGLE. Closed source EECAD package. There are two free licences available (Freeware and Freemium) -- give CADSOFT your email address and you can get a Freemium licence which gives you twice the usable board area and still no pin limits. Started using this *years* ago (just after V4 was released) and - Bibble Pro. Closed source RAW converter. Rawstudio and UFRaw work, but need significant work. I wanted a turn-key solution -- spending hours doing postprocessing on Canon CR2 images from my 7D isn't something that appeals to me. Bibble will pull the tone curves from the camera metadata, and use them as a starting point. Usually halves (or better) the post-processing time. - SlySoft AnyDVDHD. I fscking HATE DRM. Hate hate HATE. I do NOT want some nonce in Hollywood telling me that I can only watch my ?25 BluRay or DVD disc in 1080p HD because my NEC MultiSync EA231WMi (a bloody expensive IPS-TFT LCD I bought for photographic work) isn't on the "blessed devices" list. ?70 for a lifetime name-locked licence (they had a sale on a few days ago) is worth it for the amount of aggravation and pain it saves me. - VueScan. Still the nicest non-OEM scanner driver I've seen. Cheaper than SilverFast, and just as capable, if not moreso. A great way of getting a bit more life out of a scanner that's no longer supported on later versions of Windows (read: Minolta DiMAGE Scan Elite 5400, a very expensive 5400dpi film scanner). None of these packages has a machine lockout or online activation scheme -- EAGLE and AnyDVDHD use keyfiles, Bibble and Vuescan use username/serial number pairs. > Serial number of what? If it erads some kind of unique ID from the > hardware 1[] then I have major problems with that. Hardware fails and > needs to be reparied or replaced. At wich point the serial numbr may well > not be the same any more... A serial number calculated based on the name. Something along the lines of 'add each letter of the name together in ASCII'. When someone registers, you give them a code which matches their name; that code unlocks the software. > [1] I have a systems with machine readable serial numbers for the CPU/IO > board, The memory/video board, and the cabinet. Fortunately I've not met > any software for this machine that makes use of said serial numbers. I have a couple of apps for the RiscPC which use the DS2401 hardware serial number chip. Gits. Most of them were foolish enough to use the OS SWI call to access it -- so someone wrote an RMA Module to hook the SWI and fake it out based on the name of the calling process. Tied to the machine? Not any more! It even emulated an ID chip on machines which never had one (A3000 anyone?) meaning such encumbered software could be copied amongst machines quite easily. A few network apps were -- I'm told -- a bit more sneaky: sending broadcast pings every couple of minutes to see if another machine was running with the same HWID... > FWIW, I don't pirate. I beleive that authors deserve their payments. Oh yes indeed. I'm a software developer by trade.. pirating software seems really, really hypocritical to me. Illegal, immoral, name it. Though if I've bought a valid licence without a time limit, I want to use it, irrespective of whether the developer still exists, or if they'd rather sell me V2.0 than activate my copy of V1.5. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Jan 2 19:49:22 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 20:49:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for OKI clock chip? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 29 Dec 2010, David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 29 Dec 2010, Steven Hirsch wrote: > >> I'm trying to find a source for an OKI MSM6242 RTC chip (18-pin DIP >> package). As usual, all my Google searches turn up dozens and dozens of >> sleazy-looking "we can get you anything, submit an RFQ.." sites. >> >> This is the chip used in Amiga 2000s. I'm not sure if there are any >> workable cross-references. > > I see that littlediode.com has it in a SOP24 package for about US$12. Yes, I found a couple of sources for that package. I suppose an adapter could be built and wired, but I'd _really_ rather not go to that much hassle. -- From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Mon Jan 3 00:13:19 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 00:13:19 -0600 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> On 12/31/2010 5:12 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > I'm looking at my aging desktop machine and realize that its replacement > probably won't have a native floppy interface, so I started thinking > about the super-powered USB-floppy interface previously discussed here. > I forgot what it was called, so I stumbled across this page: > http://www.deviceside.com/. I quickly figured out what I wanted was the > Discferret. Does anyone know anything about this anemic alternative? > > This led me to some more questions: > 1) Can the Discferret handle flippies? > 2) Can I daisychain two drives to a single Discferret? > 3) How much more work would it be to make a Discferret talk to an 8-inch > drive? > > I'd buy one or two now, but finances aren't that great right now. > I've no idea which motherboard you are thinking of getting, but I just looked and it appears that several of the Gigabyte ones on NewEgg have a connector labeled FDD. I'm thinking that's for a Floppy Disk Drive, though it seems one is not mentioned in the list of storage devices. BTW, I've no affiliation with either Gigabyte or NewEgg; I'm just a very satisfied customer of both. If you're thinking of an already assembled PC replacement then I'm sure you're right that there won't be a floppy drive included, and for cost reasons there probably won't be a port/connector either. Later, Charlie C. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jan 3 01:22:24 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 23:22:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> References: <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote: > On 12/31/2010 5:12 AM, David Griffith wrote: >> >> I'm looking at my aging desktop machine and realize that its replacement >> probably won't have a native floppy interface, so I started thinking >> about the super-powered USB-floppy interface previously discussed here. >> I forgot what it was called, so I stumbled across this page: >> http://www.deviceside.com/. I quickly figured out what I wanted was the >> Discferret. Does anyone know anything about this anemic alternative? >> >> This led me to some more questions: >> 1) Can the Discferret handle flippies? >> 2) Can I daisychain two drives to a single Discferret? >> 3) How much more work would it be to make a Discferret talk to an 8-inch >> drive? >> >> I'd buy one or two now, but finances aren't that great right now. >> > I've no idea which motherboard you are thinking of getting, but I just looked > and it appears that several of the Gigabyte ones on NewEgg have a connector > labeled FDD. I'm thinking that's for a Floppy Disk Drive, though it seems > one is not mentioned in the list of storage devices. BTW, I've no affiliation > with either Gigabyte or NewEgg; I'm just a very satisfied customer of both. > If you're thinking of an already assembled PC replacement then I'm sure > you're right that there won't be a floppy drive included, and for cost > reasons there probably won't be a port/connector either. I was looking at this one: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130274 which doesn't appear to have a floppy port. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 3 01:41:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Jan 2011 23:41:11 -0800 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> References: , <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D210D17.28822.3245388@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jan 2011 at 0:13, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I've no idea which motherboard you are thinking of getting, but I just > looked and it appears that several of the Gigabyte ones on NewEgg have > a connector labeled FDD. I'm thinking that's for a Floppy Disk Drive, > though it seems one is not mentioned in the list of storage devices. > BTW, I've no affiliation with either Gigabyte or NewEgg; I'm just a > very satisfied customer of both. If you're thinking of an already > assembled PC replacement then I'm sure you're right that there won't > be a floppy drive included, and for cost reasons there probably won't > be a port/connector either. Later, Charlie C. Floppies aren't mentioned in the features section, even when the motherboard has one. My suggestion is to take the motherboard you're thinking about buying and go to the manufacturer's website and download the manual for it. The manual will tell you if and how many floppy drives the motherboard will support. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 3 12:03:09 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 18:03:09 +0000 Subject: [Discferret] Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> <4D1E71FE.9080503@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D220F5D.30803@philpem.me.uk> On 03/01/11 17:03, Torfinn Ingolfsen wrote: > FreeBSD man pages for 8.1 claims otherwise: > http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=libusb > or does "The current implementation supports v1.0 of the libusb API" > mean something else? Huh. OK. It looks like the FreeBSD team are implementing the API themselves, but the libusb developers are concentrating on Linux and Windows. Either way, support is support -- I'll have to set up a BSD virtual machine to test with (and a Darwin one for OSX, seeing as I can't see the point of buying a Mac Mini just for OSX testing). >> -- does anyone here need BSD support? > > Well, if I buy a DiscFerret, then - yes. OK, on the "supported OSes" list it goes, then :) I'll see about doing a test build in the next couple of days. If you (or anyone else for that matter) wants to have a play with the C API, it's available for download at: http://hg.discferret.com/C-API/ Hit "bz2" to grab a tar-bzip2 of the current development TIP ("HEAD" if you're familiar with CVS/Subversion terminology). Building is fairly simple -- just type "make". "make install" will install it into /usr/local/{lib,include}. To uninstall, rm the following files/directories: /usr/local/include/discferret /usr/local/lib/libdiscferret.so* To build an application which uses libdiscferret, you need to link against libusb-1.0 and libdiscferret, e.g.: gcc -o foo foo.o -ldiscferret -lusb-1.0 The only #include you need is: #include I'll sort out a tutorial in the next couple of days; I know the build system for libdiscferret is a bit crap, but it works fairly well... Debian and RPM packages are next on my "to do" list, after the tutorial, and testing on BSD and Windows. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Jan 3 14:41:26 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Mon, 03 Jan 2011 15:41:26 -0500 Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <201012240524.oBO5OBFf020354@floodgap.com> References: <201012240524.oBO5OBFf020354@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D223476.3070008@atarimuseum.com> Just went to the webserver - outstanding dude!!! Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Sorry... thought it might help, still a damned nice machine... I did >> some work here and there on some AM's back in the 80's and 90's and they >> were all the smaller Altair/Imsai sized units, never seen one that big >> before, cool machine and the price is pretty darned good... >> > > No, it is nice looking, I agree. However, it's missing its boot drive and > getting AMOS on it will be a little sticky. It does at least have the VCR > interface, and Alpha Micro does still sell AMOS on VHS tape, so it's possible > for someone enterprising. > > Myself, I like the later Eagles. My Eagle 300 is set up as a web server: > > http://ampm.floodgap.com/ > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 3 14:49:52 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 12:49:52 -0800 Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 2, at 10:49 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> It is a histoirical fact that at least in the UK, the start of the >>> 20th >>> centruy was celebrated at the start of 1901. If you want to have the >>> new >>> millennium starting in 2000 (and thus a new decade starting in 2010), >>> you >>> ahve to be able to justify having only 99 years in the 20th century. >> ... >>> Millenium (latin Mille Anus) : 1000 people making a right arse of >>> themselves by celebrating a new millennium in the wrong year. >> >> Well, it is now an 'historical fact' that hundreds of millions to >> billions of people celebrated 1999->2000 as the millennial turnover, > > The change in centurt has been celebrate at the start of years ending > '01' for quite some time ... > >> far more than 2000->2001. Those people make no more an arse of > > And every one of them was _wrong_. > > Look, you can celebrate whenever you like (but I wish you'd do it in a > way that doesn't upsed me, and more importantly my cats), and you're > welcome to delebrate multiple carries in the year_increement if you > like. > But don't call it a new millennium. They can call it a new millennium if they choose. They were celebrating the beginning of the sensibly labelled millennium spanning 2000-2999. Or they were celebrating the third millennium, even if off by a year according to one definition. The astronomical calendar declares a year 0 immediately prior to year 1. By that calendar a new millenium started at year 2000. It isn't important. Millennia, centuries, decades are generally referred to casually regardless (e.g. the 20's). If one needs precision, one specifies it in more formal manners. There are differing reasonings, definitions and perspectives on the matter. Only the pedantically insistent feel the need to call other people wrong, foolish or arses over such matters. ... >>> For that matter a new yrear is meaningless. AFAIK January 1st doesn't >>> correspond exactly to any special point in the earth's orbit. >> >> The beginning/end of a year is in relationship to the winter solstice >> - >> a natural phenomenon of significant consequence to humans and human >> society - albeit displaced slightly for historical reasons (cumulative >> error before a better way of dealing with the error was developed). > > As I said, Janurary 1st has no particular cignificance. It's close to > the > winter solstice, but it is not the winter solstice. It is aribtrary. It's not arbitrary. It was intended to mark the winter solstice / beginning of the seasonal cycle, and originally coincided with the solstice. It now marks 10/11 days after the winter solstice. ANAICF, periodic errors in the Julian calendar accumulated over the centuries, the cumulative error was accounted for in the switch to the Gregorian calendar but for religious reasons Easter took precedence over the solstice, and the displacement of Jan 1st from the solstice was fixed at 10/11 days. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jan 4 00:20:00 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 00:20:00 -0600 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: References: <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D22BC10.5020802@tx.rr.com> On 1/3/2011 1:22 AM, David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 3 Jan 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote: > >> On 12/31/2010 5:12 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> >>> I'm looking at my aging desktop machine and realize that its replacement >>> probably won't have a native floppy interface, so I started thinking >>> about the super-powered USB-floppy interface previously discussed here. >>> I forgot what it was called, so I stumbled across this page: >>> http://www.deviceside.com/. I quickly figured out what I wanted was the >>> Discferret. Does anyone know anything about this anemic alternative? >>> >>> This led me to some more questions: >>> 1) Can the Discferret handle flippies? >>> 2) Can I daisychain two drives to a single Discferret? >>> 3) How much more work would it be to make a Discferret talk to an 8-inch >>> drive? >>> >>> I'd buy one or two now, but finances aren't that great right now. >>> >> I've no idea which motherboard you are thinking of getting, but I just >> looked and it appears that several of the Gigabyte ones on NewEgg have >> a connector labeled FDD. I'm thinking that's for a Floppy Disk Drive, >> though it seems one is not mentioned in the list of storage devices. >> BTW, I've no affiliation with either Gigabyte or NewEgg; I'm just a >> very satisfied customer of both. If you're thinking of an already >> assembled PC replacement then I'm sure you're right that there won't >> be a floppy drive included, and for cost reasons there probably won't >> be a port/connector either. > > I was looking at this one: > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130274 which > doesn't appear to have a floppy port. > I believe you're correct. I don't do all that many builds and have not used MSI yet, but that appears to be a quite nice board. The user reviews do seem a bit mixed, although the poor grammar in many of the 1-egg ones makes me wonder about the general intelligence and technical competence of the reviewer. I think the Gigabyte boards I quickly looked at were a bit lower on the performance curve than your MSI one. I guess one is lucky to get even one 2-device PATA port and one original type PCI slot these days. I suspect my PC performance needs tend to be a bit lower than many, and as a result I view many of the "improvements" as just a scheme to move more $ out of my account. If I was not concerned about violating Fred's copyright, I'd probably change my signature to "Grumpy old Charlie". ;-) Luck, Charlie C. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Tue Jan 4 00:56:27 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 00:56:27 -0600 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D22C49B.7000701@tx.rr.com> On 12/31/2010 5:15 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 31/12/10 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: >> Would it be possible to read a 'flippy' in a dobule-head drive (I asusme >> the Diskferret has a sid-select output) and then revese the bitstream >> form side 1 in software brfore trying to analyse it? > > Sure, as long as the drive head was aligned correctly to allow that to > work. AIUI some disc formats have the lower head offset by about half a > track relative to the upper head. > > And yes, the DiscFerret does have a side-select output. > > Thanks, This is probably a dumb question and/or one I could Google for, but does anyone know why the tracks were offset? Was there concern the magnetic field while writing side 0 would modify the data on side 1 etc.? My guess would have been that the thickness of the floppy medium was too great to allow significant interaction between the sides. Later, Charlie C. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 4 01:39:00 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 23:39:00 -0800 Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 3, at 12:49 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Jan 2, at 10:49 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> For that matter a new yrear is meaningless. AFAIK January 1st >>>> doesn't >>>> correspond exactly to any special point in the earth's orbit. >>> >>> The beginning/end of a year is in relationship to the winter >>> solstice - >>> a natural phenomenon of significant consequence to humans and human >>> society - albeit displaced slightly for historical reasons >>> (cumulative >>> error before a better way of dealing with the error was developed). >> >> As I said, Janurary 1st has no particular cignificance. It's close to >> the >> winter solstice, but it is not the winter solstice. It is aribtrary. > > It's not arbitrary. It was intended to mark the winter solstice / > beginning of the seasonal cycle, and originally coincided with the > solstice. It now marks 10/11 days after the winter solstice. ANAICF, > periodic errors in the Julian calendar accumulated over the centuries, > the cumulative error was accounted for in the switch to the Gregorian > calendar but for religious reasons Easter took precedence over the > solstice, and the displacement of Jan 1st from the solstice was fixed > at 10/11 days. Researching a little further, and not surprisingly there are some inconsistent sources out there on the net. Pardon the rambling, but for the record: another ref suggests Jan 1st was traditionally the day the Roman senate took office. At the time the Julian calendar was being set (45BC), Caesar was attempting to change the beginning of the calendar year to either the spring equinox or the winter solstice, but Jan 1st in that year was the 1st New Moon after the winter solstice. It was politically untenable to alter it in that year, so it was left for one more year after which it was to change. However Caesar was assassinated shortly thereafter and the change never took place. (http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/tobin.html) From jonas at otter.se Mon Jan 3 06:37:34 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 13:37:34 +0100 Subject: Happy New Decade (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <006601cbab42$ff458b10$fdd0a130$@otter.se> Arguing about this is about as daft as arguing about whether array indices should be zero-based or one-based. It is a fact that some languages use 0 as the index origin, others 1. It is also a fact that a century or decade starts on the year ending with the digit 1, not 0, since there never was a year 0. Possibly not logical, but nonetheless a fact. Claiming anything else is plain wrong, just as claiming that the sun rotates around the earth is wrong, even though it looks that way from the earth. And arguing about it is completely pointless. The concept may be hard to grasp for mathematically challenged persons who think that celebrating the start of a new millennium in 2000 is a good marketing move, but they are still wrong. All the problems with non-year-2000-capable software confuse the issue but the facts still stand. So happy new decade to all! /Jonas From tingox at gmail.com Mon Jan 3 11:03:54 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 3 Jan 2011 18:03:54 +0100 Subject: [Discferret] Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D1E71FE.9080503@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D1E6417.80706@philpem.me.uk> <4D1E71FE.9080503@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi, On Sat, Jan 1, 2011 at 1:14 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > However, I'm still fairly early on in the development of the libdiscferret > library, so it could be ported to libusb-0.1 if necessary. The only OSes > unsupported by libusb-1.0 are FreeBSD, OpenBSD and NetBSD FreeBSD man pages for 8.1 claims otherwise: http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=libusb or does "The current implementation supports v1.0 of the libusb API" mean something else? > -- does anyone here need BSD support? Well, if I buy a DiscFerret, then - yes. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 4 05:19:35 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 06:19:35 -0500 Subject: VCF East 7.0 Message-ID: <4D230247.8090707@snarc.net> Hi all -- Now that it's 2011, I just wanted to remind everyone about VCF East 7.0. It's scheduled for May 14-15 at our usual location -- the InfoAge Science Center, in Wall, New Jersey. Typically most of our exhibitors are from the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast parts of the USA. However last year some exhibitors arrived from farther away -- Mike Lee (Chicago), Vince Briel (Cleveland), and even Robert Bernardo (northern California) -- so the rest of you are running out of excuses distance-wise. :) At some of the past VCF East shows we also had visitors from Missouri, Texas, and California, and from Canada, Germany, Italy, and New Zealand. We're still in the beginning stages of getting keynote speakers and such, so no big announcements yet. But .... a little binary birdie says Forrest Mims may give a talk, and there's a chance (slim, but not out of the realm of possibility) that someone may accept my invitation whose famous three-letter nickname once spelled the first letters of the words in a company called "Wheels Of Zeus". ;) So: right now we're waiting for Sellam to finish the registration page. In the meantime, please start thinking about attending our event. The previous VCF East was our biggest one ever, and we intend to out-do ourselves this year. - Evan From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 4 06:49:37 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 04:49:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alpha Micro... In-Reply-To: <4D223476.3070008@atarimuseum.com> from "Curt @ Atari Museum" at "Jan 3, 11 03:41:26 pm" Message-ID: <201101041249.p04Cnbug018980@floodgap.com> > > Myself, I like the later Eagles. My Eagle 300 is set up as a web server: > > > > http://ampm.floodgap.com/ > > Just went to the webserver - outstanding dude!!! *tips hat* AMOS is still a pretty robust operating system. It just sits there and purrs. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Eight tries. The number is ... seven." ------------------------------------ From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 4 07:17:25 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:17:25 +0100 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility Message-ID: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> Hi all. In order to make room for an 11/44 I'm giving away a PDP-11/23 with two RL01 drives. I have a bunch of spare Q-BUS cards for the 11/23 and I wonder if any of them are compatible with the 11/73. You see, I just got an 11/73 which is quite empty (a CPU and some memory) and I don't want to give away something that's useful in the 11/73. So, here is what I got for the 11/23: Memory: M7506, M8043, M8044, M8047, M8059, M8067 Peripherals: M7513 RQDXE RQDX extender for RQDX2/3 M7941 DRV11 16-bit parallel line unit M7954 IBV11 IEC general purpose M7957 DZV11-M 4-line double-buffered async EAI MUX M8013 RLV11 RL01/RL02 disk control 18-bit M8014 RLV11 M8027 LPV11 Printer interface module M8061 RLV12 RL01/RL02 disk control Other: M9401 Bus extender? M9400-YB Terminator (11/03) M7942 MRV11-AA Space for 4K 16-bit PROM M7952 KWV11 Programmable realtime clock If I've understood the matter correctly the 11/73 can utilize 22 bits of the Q-BUS but the 11/23 only 18 bits and that means that some cards are 18 bit only and others 22 bit only. I think I will hang on to the RLV12 and RQDXE, anything else? It would be great if the memory was compatible. Thanks in advance, Pontus. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 09:25:56 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:25:56 -0500 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Pontus wrote: > Hi all. > > In order to make room for an 11/44 I'm giving away a PDP-11/23 with two RL01 > drives. I have a bunch of spare Q-BUS cards for the 11/23 and I wonder if > any of them are compatible with the 11/73. Most will be (though the RLV11 happens to require a backplane wired with a "CD Interconnect") > So, here is what I got for the 11/23: > > Memory: M7506, M8043, M8044, M8047, M8059, M8067 Checking http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt, your memory pile looks like: M8043: DLV11 - a quad serial card (those four 40-pin DIPs are UARTs, not SRAM) M8044: MSV11-D - if full (most are), it's an MSV11-DD, a 32Kword RAM card - small for a large system M8047: MXV11 - probably a 16Kword card w/SLUs - also small for a large system M8059: MSV11-L - either -LF (64Kword) or -LK (128Kword) - medium-sized M8067: MSV11-P - either -PF (128Kword) or -PK (256Kword) or -PL (512Kword) - large for DEC M7506: MSV11-M - either -MA (256Kword) or -MB (512Kword) Your limits are 2Mword (4Mbytes) of total Qbus memory on a 22-bit system. In my experience, few Qbus machines had more than 4 memory boards of any size, most had 1-2 (if you needed to add more memory, it was "more economical" to remove the older, smaller stuff and use the same number of slots with larger capacity cards. > If I've understood the matter correctly the 11/73 can utilize 22 bits of the > Q-BUS but the 11/23 only 18 bits and that means that some cards are 18 bit > only and others 22 bit only. Not quite. There is a variant (Rev A) of the KDF-11 (11/23) CPU card that can't go above 18 bits, but I've never seen one in the field. Every one I've seen can work in an 18-bit or 22-bit chassis. That's the limiting factor - what's your backplane? A post-rev-A KDF-11 in a BA23 has no problems with being configured as a 22-bit system. It's also possible to run wires to upgrade an 18-bit backplane to 22-bits - many of us on the list have done that. > I think I will hang on to the RLV12 and RQDXE, anything else? It would be > great if the memory was compatible. The RLV12 is a keeper - it works in 18 or 22-bit machines and it doesn't have the limitation of needing to be stuffed into a CD-interconnect slot (unlike the two-board RLV11). The RQDXE is handy if you want to use an RQDX3 in a system other than a single-BA-23 cabinet. If I were keeping memory, I'd keep the larger of your cards (MSV11-L, -P, -M) and populate the departing 11/23 with the MSV11-D (as long as you have a serial card for its console, like the DLV11-J, otherwise, you can configure a small system with the MXV11). In general, the 11/23 with 32Kwords of RAM and a DLV11J (quad serial) and RLV11 with a drive or two makes a nice RT-11 system. If you wanted to run something more elaborate (RSX-11, RSTS/E, 2BSD), I'd recommend more memory, larger disk, and if possible, a newer processor (especially with split I&D space like an 11/44 or 11/73), but you *can* still do a lot with an 11/23 and enough memory and disk. It's just nicer to have a more advanced processor to go with the extra space. I myself don't have an 11/73. My only KDJ-11 systems are a DEC Professional 380 (a former VAXconsole box) and a loose S-box "11/53" card that was once a communication device CPU. I wouldn't turn down an M8190 or M8192, but I haven't run across any for cheap/free, so I still have a few M8186 (KDF11-A) and M8189 (KDF11-B) boards that do just fine. I hope all this information helps rather than obscures your task. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 4 10:14:38 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 16:14:38 +0000 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D23476E.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/01/2011 15:25, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 8:17 AM, Pontus wrote: >> In order to make room for an 11/44 I'm giving away a PDP-11/23 with two RL01 >> drives. I have a bunch of spare Q-BUS cards for the 11/23 and I wonder if >> any of them are compatible with the 11/73. > > Most will be (though the RLV11 happens to require a backplane wired > with a "CD Interconnect") >> Memory: M7506, M8043, M8044, M8047, M8059, M8067 > M8047: MXV11 - probably a 16Kword card w/SLUs - also small for a large system It's an MXV11-A, which won't have a proper diagnostic bootstrap for an 11/73 (it won't initialise everything properly for a KDJ11). You need an MXV11-B for a KDJ11, and the ROMs aren't interchangeable (paging hardware works quite differently). It also only supports 18-bit memory addressing, so it would limit what else you could use. > There is a variant (Rev A) of the KDF-11 (11/23) CPU card that can't > go above 18 bits, but I've never seen one in the field. I've seen one but they're not common. > Every one > I've seen can work in an 18-bit or 22-bit chassis. That's the > limiting factor - what's your backplane? A post-rev-A KDF-11 in a > BA23 has no problems with being configured as a 22-bit system. It's > also possible to run wires to upgrade an 18-bit backplane to 22-bits - > many of us on the list have done that. Yup, I did that to all mine, years ago. The other thing to check is exactly what backplane you have in the 11/73. Is it an 11/73 in a BA11 box (looks like an 11/03 or 11/23)? Or is it a microPDP-11/73 in a BA23/BA123 box? Check, for they have different backplanes! And is the 11/73 a dual-height (M8192) or quad-height (M8190) card? The dual-height ones were often used as upgrades for older 11/23 systems, but were also sold as 11/73S systems in a BA11-S box. A microPDP-11/73 is always a BA23 or BA123 box, but the quad-height boards were sometimes used as upgrades to 11/23plus systems in BA11 boxes. See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis Apart from that, I second what Ethan's already said. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 4 13:19:02 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 11:19:02 -0800 Subject: Happy New Decade (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <006601cbab42$ff458b10$fdd0a130$@otter.se> References: <006601cbab42$ff458b10$fdd0a130$@otter.se> Message-ID: <761f3678c1334b0dc957265d59601a9f@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 3, at 4:37 AM, Jonas Otter wrote: > Arguing about this is about as daft as arguing about whether array > indices > should be zero-based or one-based. It is a fact that some languages > use 0 as > the index origin, others 1. It is also a fact that a century or decade > starts on the year ending with the digit 1, not 0, since there never > was a > year 0. Possibly not logical, but nonetheless a fact. Claiming > anything else > is plain wrong, just as claiming that the sun rotates around the earth > is > wrong, even though it looks that way from the earth. And arguing about > it is > completely pointless. The concept may be hard to grasp for > mathematically > challenged persons who think that celebrating the start of a new > millennium > in 2000 is a good marketing move, but they are still wrong. All the > problems > with non-year-2000-capable software confuse the issue but the facts > still > stand. You're right, it is daft to argue about it. However, it is the xxx1 pedants telling everyone else they are wrong that make an argument out of it. You're not on such solid ground as you would like to believe, as I have laid out prior. See for example: http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/newmill.htm Also: http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/astronomical_year_numbering.htm. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomical_year_numbering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_8601 http://www.hermetic.ch/cal_stud/cal_art.html presents within it another argument for the xxx0 perspective, based on Dionysius' original reasoning for the AD year numbering which the Gregorian calendar uses. It never fails to amaze me how people who like to claim they are right by reason or facts can be so blind and obtuse to wider or alternative reasonings and other facts. From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 4 13:30:06 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 14:30:06 -0500 Subject: VCF East 7.0 In-Reply-To: <4D230247.8090707@snarc.net> References: <4D230247.8090707@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D23753E.2040200@atarimuseum.com> I'm onboard, sign me up as a exhibitor Evan... Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > Hi all -- > > Now that it's 2011, I just wanted to remind everyone about VCF East > 7.0. It's scheduled for May 14-15 at our usual location -- the > InfoAge Science Center, in Wall, New Jersey. > > Typically most of our exhibitors are from the Mid-Atlantic and > Northeast parts of the USA. However last year some exhibitors arrived > from farther away -- Mike Lee (Chicago), Vince Briel (Cleveland), and > even Robert Bernardo (northern California) -- so the rest of you are > running out of excuses distance-wise. :) At some of the past VCF > East shows we also had visitors from Missouri, Texas, and California, > and from Canada, Germany, Italy, and New Zealand. > > We're still in the beginning stages of getting keynote speakers and > such, so no big announcements yet. But .... a little binary birdie > says Forrest Mims may give a talk, and there's a chance (slim, but not > out of the realm of possibility) that someone may accept my invitation > whose famous three-letter nickname once spelled the first letters of > the words in a company called "Wheels Of Zeus". ;) > > So: right now we're waiting for Sellam to finish the registration > page. In the meantime, please start thinking about attending our > event. The previous VCF East was our biggest one ever, and we intend > to out-do ourselves this year. > > - Evan > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 4 15:45:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 21:45:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Jan 4, 11 02:17:25 pm Message-ID: > If I've understood the matter correctly the 11/73 can utilize 22 bits of > the Q-BUS but the 11/23 only 18 bits and that means that some cards are > 18 bit only and others 22 bit only. As I rememebr it, there's a signal on the Qbus (it has no Unibus equivalent) which indicates an access to the I/O page. Properly designed I.O devies (anything from DEC at lesst) use this signal rather than decoding the upper address lines. So any peripheral card which does not do DMA will work with the 11/23 or 11/73 processor. With DMA cards, the stiuation is a little harder. The I.O card generates the addess in during DAM. Older cards (the RLV11 is one, the RXV21 is another IIRC) only generate 18 bits of address. They will work in a 22 bit system, but they can only transfer data to the bottom 128kW of memory. Some OSes IIRC handles this fro you, they set up a buffer in a suitable area of memeory and transfr the data there, Others have problems. Later cards (RLV12 for example I think) gerneate all 22 bits of DAM addrss and work fine with thr 11/73 -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 4 15:27:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 21:27:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 3, 11 12:49:52 pm Message-ID: OK, I give in. I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 4 17:09:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 15:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy Humbug In-Reply-To: References: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net> All this brouhaha over "millenium" is futile. "Millenium" is nothing more than a completely arbitrary point in a completely arbitrary calendar. Calling each other "arses" and "idiots" may be true, but why bother? So, Happy New Year to all of the arses and idiots! We had a big celebration over "odometer rollover" and an object lesson, particularly for COBOL programmers and bureaurats, about the flaws in using 2 decimal digits for year. Aside from the unnoticed total collapse of civilization, the planes did not fall from the sky, and my uncle's hearing aids didn't spontaneously combust. I'm still using a checkbook and lots of forms at work that have 19_ preprinted in the year line. We had another celebration a year later. I slept through both of them. For REAL events to monitor, consider the winter solstice in 2012 the Unix epoch (for those still alive almost 30 years from now) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 4 17:19:32 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 18:19:32 -0500 Subject: Anybody ever notice this website for old computer advertisements? Message-ID: <873254FBA95C4923A019F08DF969F7E9@dell8300> http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads-1980s/15 I was googling for and old computer and stumbled onto this place. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 4 17:27:15 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 15:27:15 -0800 Subject: Happy Humbug In-Reply-To: <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net> References: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: From: Fred Cisin Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2011 3:09 PM > For REAL events to monitor, consider > the winter solstice in 2012 > the Unix epoch (for those still alive almost 30 years from now) The one I'd like to be alive for is the TENEX/TOPS-20/ITS epoch: 7-Aug-2576 23:59:59 As for the next Winter Solstice, I've got 7 other festivals to watch for before then. (2010 was cool, with full moons on the Autumnal Equinox and the Winter Solstice, and a new on their quartering.) Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jan 4 18:12:39 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 19:12:39 -0500 Subject: 8-BIT OPL2 Sound board community project Message-ID: <72AFF4B1487B4512BFE6CEB1475F86EA@andrewdesktop> Hi! There is a community project to make an 8-bit OPL2 sound board. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?23271-8-BIT-OPL2-Soun d-board http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=OPL2 The board is designed already and ready to go to prototype board build and test. The board supports the YM3812 and YM2151 synth chips and the YM3012 and related DACs. There are some interested builders working on the design at vintage-computer.com forums. To order prototype PCBs I need 5 builders to order prototype boards at $30 so we can get some initial hardware for build and test. There will be software for this board to allow OPL2 programming. The board *may* provide some compatibility for legacy PC gaming. If you are interested in participating please contact me by email LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM with OPL2 in the subject. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 19:23:41 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 19:23:41 -0600 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project Message-ID: I picked up an interesting bit of hardware on ebay. It's one of these without components: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=1360 Does anyone have a way of getting at a component list for this? brian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 4 19:25:21 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 17:25:21 -0800 Subject: Happy New Decade In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 4, at 1:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, I give in. > > I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed person. Aside from just being cheap, that's rather unoriginal. With apologies to Samuel Johnson: Wit is the last refuge of the unreasoning. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 4 20:59:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 19:59:36 -0700 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Brian Lanning writes: > I picked up an interesting bit of hardware on ebay. It's one of these > without components: > > http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=1360 > > Does anyone have a way of getting at a component list for this? I would ask on Amiga forums for someone who already has one of these to make you a parts list. FWIW, on the terminator board I'm guessing that the upper left 7 components are pull-up resistor packs to bring bus lines high and the capacitors are decoupling capacitors for some of the signal lines. Power and ground, maybe? The chips on the main board are another matter, but I would guess either slot address decode logic or bus drivers. Maybe you can infer what needs to go there by the tracing the metal runs on the board and referring to a schematic for the Amiga bus. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 21:15:12 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 01:15:12 -0200 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project References: Message-ID: > Does anyone have a way of getting at a component list for this? Bad news Brian, seems there are three programable ICs on the big board...see the bottom (leftmost on the picture) chips, looks like PALs :( From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 4 21:28:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2011 20:28:31 -0700 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Alexandre Souza - Listas" writes: > > Does anyone have a way of getting at a component list for this? > > Bad news Brian, seems there are three programable ICs on the big > board...see the bottom (leftmost on the picture) chips, looks like PALs :( Probably address decode. This is a really simple board and shouldn't defy reverse engineering. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 21:52:27 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 22:52:27 -0500 Subject: Anybody ever notice this website for old computer advertisements? In-Reply-To: <873254FBA95C4923A019F08DF969F7E9@dell8300> References: <873254FBA95C4923A019F08DF969F7E9@dell8300> Message-ID: > http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads-1980s/15 > > I was googling for and old computer and stumbled onto this place. Magazine poachers. -- Will From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 22:23:39 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2011 22:23:39 -0600 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 9:15 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Does anyone have a way of getting at a component list for this? > > ? Bad news Brian, seems there are three programable ICs on the big > board...see the bottom (leftmost on the picture) chips, looks like PALs :( How can you tell? It's practically impossible to read the numbers. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 4 22:55:55 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 02:55:55 -0200 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project References: Message-ID: >How can you tell? It's practically impossible to read the numbers. The logo of the manufacturer :) From scanning.cc at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 02:21:29 2011 From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 00:21:29 -0800 Subject: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? In-Reply-To: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB30227238B@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> References: <1775CC70CD47484EA68ACCD903F02CB30227238B@na3-mail.mgc.mentorg.com> Message-ID: Sorry Michael, I should have checked back sooner. Thanks for the offer but I need the cartridge that will program 28 pin parts. Best regards, Steven On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 4:38 PM, Holley, Michael wrote: > Steven > I have a 315B103 UniPak 2B cartridge, it does Intel 8051 > microprocessors. I am in the Seattle area. Contact me off list. > Michael Holley > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of alan canning > Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 11:56 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Data I/O Unipak 2B ? > > I just bought a Data I/O 29B with an Unipak 2B from Epay. Everything > seems > okay BUT the pinout cartridge ( the little module that plugs in the end > of > the 2B ) is missing. I suspect that all it has is some kind of simple > interlock like two pins tied together to tell the Data I/O the cartridge > is > there ( probably so you can't run the unit with that HAZARDOUS 20 volts > on > the open connector. Anybody know how to get around this or fake it ? The > unit won't do squat without it.... Have not been able to find a > schematic > of the 2B or the pinout cartridge. Thanks. > > Best regards, Steven > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 09:18:18 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 09:18:18 -0600 Subject: Happy Humbug In-Reply-To: <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net> References: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D248BBA.4060907@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > So, Happy New Year to all of the arses and idiots! Happy Another-successful-orbit-of-the-sun Day! :-) > We had a big celebration over "odometer rollover" Our car's not too far from having traveled the distance to the moon, which might be a cause for celebration, but unfortunately it has too many digits on the odo to ever make it the million miles needed for rollover :-( I've had numerous older vehicles that have made it through rollover at least once, though. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 5 09:38:35 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 07:38:35 -0800 Subject: Happy Humbug In-Reply-To: <4D248BBA.4060907@gmail.com> References: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> , <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net>, <4D248BBA.4060907@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi My Rover TC2000 made it to 350K. I did have to rebuild it when I first got it with only 60K. Most cars will easily make it to 200K now days. Things like the PCV save the engine and better materials for valves has significantly improve life of engines. Dwight > Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 09:18:18 -0600 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Happy Humbug > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > So, Happy New Year to all of the arses and idiots! > > Happy Another-successful-orbit-of-the-sun Day! :-) > > > We had a big celebration over "odometer rollover" > > Our car's not too far from having traveled the distance to the moon, which > might be a cause for celebration, but unfortunately it has too many digits on > the odo to ever make it the million miles needed for rollover :-( I've had > numerous older vehicles that have made it through rollover at least once, though. > > cheers > > Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 5 16:34:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:34:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Happy Humbug In-Reply-To: References: <49dc1c3c84f28e955703dbfa0c0274e7@cs.ubc.ca> <20110104145828.X30929@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110105141950.F72390@shell.lmi.net> > > For REAL events to monitor, consider > > the winter solstice in 2012 > > the Unix epoch (for those still alive almost 30 years from now) On Tue, 4 Jan 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > The one I'd like to be alive for is the TENEX/TOPS-20/ITS epoch: > 7-Aug-2576 23:59:59 I hadn't even considered the possibility of anybody here being alive for another half a millenium! In the meantime, howzbout 2108 for MS-DOS FAT? (16 bit packed bitfield date providing an offset of 128 years from 1980?) > As for the next Winter Solstice, I've got 7 other festivals to watch for > before then. (2010 was cool, with full moons on the Autumnal Equinox and > the Winter Solstice, and a new on their quartering.) Are astronomical coincidences really as important as programming short-sightedness of the 1960s? THAT is what we celebrated at the end of 1999; nothing to do with any sort of "millenium", not disunirregardless of how one defines it. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 5 16:50:06 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:50:06 -0800 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > As I rememebr it, there's a signal on the Qbus (it has no Unibus > equivalent) which indicates an access to the I/O page. Properly designed > I.O devies (anything from DEC at lesst) use this signal rather than > decoding the upper address lines. > BBS7 L on card edge connector pin AP2. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 5 16:55:38 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2011 14:55:38 -0800 Subject: Bringing tapes to Room Temp? Message-ID: I'm getting ready to test out my 9-Track tape drive before hauling it into work for some data recovery. I have a box of brand new tapes, which unfortunately haven't been stored under ideal conditions for most of their life (they're probably about 20 years old). Currently they're in the garage, which at the moment is close to freezing. How should I go about bringing the tapes to room temp? The main 4 tapes to be read have been stored under proper conditions for most of their life. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 5 17:21:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 16:21:56 -0700 Subject: Bringing tapes to Room Temp? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Zane H. Healy" writes: > I'm getting ready to test out my 9-Track tape drive before hauling it > into work for some data recovery. I have a box of brand new tapes, > which unfortunately haven't been stored under ideal conditions for > most of their life (they're probably about 20 years old). Currently > they're in the garage, which at the moment is close to freezing. How > should I go about bringing the tapes to room temp? I'd take them to the coldest part of your basement and leave them there for a couple days. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From nick.allen at comcast.net Wed Jan 5 10:10:09 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2011 10:10:09 -0600 Subject: Wanted - 44 Pin expansion cards for Cosmac Elf Message-ID: <4D2497E1.2080605@comcast.net> Hey everyone, does anyone have any of the 44-pin expansion cards for the Cosmac Elf? I am looking for a video board, disk controller, or keyboard interface specifically. Or even some blank prototype style boards would be helpful. Thanks! Nick From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 6 03:25:56 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 10:25:56 +0100 Subject: Bringing tapes to Room Temp? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D258AA4.2090006@update.uu.se> 2011-01-06 00:21, Richard skrev: > In article, > "Zane H. Healy" writes: > >> I'm getting ready to test out my 9-Track tape drive before hauling it >> into work for some data recovery. I have a box of brand new tapes, >> which unfortunately haven't been stored under ideal conditions for >> most of their life (they're probably about 20 years old). Currently >> they're in the garage, which at the moment is close to freezing. How >> should I go about bringing the tapes to room temp? > I'd take them to the coldest part of your basement and leave them > there for a couple days. Avoiding condensation might be a good idea. Put it in an airtight bag while heating it up. (disclaimer: I have no experience of this kind of thing) /Pontus From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 6 04:03:19 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:03:19 +0100 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D259367.8070301@update.uu.se> Thank you Ethan for a comprehensive answer. > Checking http://world.std.com/~mbg/pdp11-field-guide.txt, your memory > pile looks like: A great document! I wouldn't know what to do without it. > M8043: DLV11 - a quad serial card (those four 40-pin DIPs are UARTs, not SRAM) > M8044: MSV11-D - if full (most are), it's an MSV11-DD, a 32Kword RAM > card - small for a large system > M8047: MXV11 - probably a 16Kword card w/SLUs - also small for a large system > M8059: MSV11-L - either -LF (64Kword) or -LK (128Kword) - medium-sized > M8067: MSV11-P - either -PF (128Kword) or -PK (256Kword) or -PL > (512Kword) - large for DEC > M7506: MSV11-M - either -MA (256Kword) or -MB (512Kword) > > Your limits are 2Mword (4Mbytes) of total Qbus memory on a 22-bit > system. In my experience, few Qbus machines had more than 4 memory > boards of any size, most had 1-2 (if you needed to add more memory, it > was "more economical" to remove the older, smaller stuff and use the > same number of slots with larger capacity cards. It seems that I'm lucky my M7506 is -BF which is 512KW (any idea why the field guide above lists it as 1MB?) and that my M8067 is -PL also 512KW. So in total I think I will have 2MW :) if everything is functional that is. So I will hang on to those, I'll also keep a M8059 or two if the bigger boards are broken. > Not quite. > > There is a variant (Rev A) of the KDF-11 (11/23) CPU card that can't > go above 18 bits, but I've never seen one in the field. Every one > I've seen can work in an 18-bit or 22-bit chassis. That's the > limiting factor - what's your backplane? A post-rev-A KDF-11 in a > BA23 has no problems with being configured as a 22-bit system. It's > also possible to run wires to upgrade an 18-bit backplane to 22-bits - > many of us on the list have done that. I have a H9273, a 4x9 18bit CD backplane. No upgrade done. > The RLV12 is a keeper - it works in 18 or 22-bit machines and it > doesn't have the limitation of needing to be stuffed into a > CD-interconnect slot (unlike the two-board RLV11). The RQDXE is handy > if you want to use an RQDX3 in a system other than a single-BA-23 > cabinet. If I were keeping memory, I'd keep the larger of your cards > (MSV11-L, -P, -M) and populate the departing 11/23 with the MSV11-D > (as long as you have a serial card for its console, like the DLV11-J, > otherwise, you can configure a small system with the MXV11). It will be a complete system with KDF11, DLV11, MSV11, RLV11 and BDV11 plus a bunch of spares, a fairly nice 11/23 setup as 11/23s goes. > I hope all this information helps rather than obscures your task. I has indeed helped! Thank you. - Pontus From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 6 04:18:50 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 11:18:50 +0100 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: <4D23476E.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> <4D23476E.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D25970A.1000306@update.uu.se> 2011-01-04 17:14, Pete Turnbull skrev: >> M8047: MXV11 - probably a 16Kword card w/SLUs - also small for a >> large system > > It's an MXV11-A, which won't have a proper diagnostic bootstrap for an > 11/73 (it won't initialise everything properly for a KDJ11). You need > an MXV11-B for a KDJ11, and the ROMs aren't interchangeable (paging > hardware works quite differently). It also only supports 18-bit > memory addressing, so it would limit what else you could use. In the 11/23 the bootstrap is on the BDV11 card if I haven't misunderstood. Is the MXV11 an equivalent or a more modern card? I seem to lack one crucial part for my 11/73 system then. >> Every one I've seen can work in an 18-bit or 22-bit chassis. That's the >> limiting factor - what's your backplane? A post-rev-A KDF-11 in a >> BA23 has no problems with being configured as a 22-bit system. It's >> also possible to run wires to upgrade an 18-bit backplane to 22-bits - >> many of us on the list have done that. > > Yup, I did that to all mine, years ago. The other thing to check is > exactly what backplane you have in the 11/73. Is it an 11/73 in a > BA11 box (looks like an 11/03 or 11/23)? Or is it a microPDP-11/73 in > a BA23/BA123 box? Check, for they have different backplanes! And is > the 11/73 a dual-height (M8192) or quad-height (M8190) card? The > dual-height ones were often used as upgrades for older 11/23 systems, > but were also sold as 11/73S systems in a BA11-S box. A > microPDP-11/73 is always a BA23 or BA123 box, but the quad-height > boards were sometimes used as upgrades to 11/23plus systems in BA11 > boxes. > > See http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > I have a BA23 (with space for drives that slide out in front) I don't know what backplane (it is in storage now). The CPU is the dual-height M8192. I got the chassis and CPU from different places. - Pontus From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 6 07:01:42 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:01:42 +0000 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: <4D259367.8070301@update.uu.se> References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> <4D259367.8070301@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D25BD36.5090307@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2011 10:03, Pontus wrote: > Thank you Ethan for a comprehensive answer. > It seems that I'm lucky my M7506 is -BF which is 512KW (any idea why the > field guide above lists it as 1MB?) and that my M8067 is -PL also 512KW. > So in total I think I will have 2MW :) if everything is functional that > is. DEC typically referred to memory size in words, which are 16-bit on a PDP-11, but many others count bytes. So 512kW is 1024kB. > I have a H9273, a 4x9 18bit CD backplane. No upgrade done. That's pretty easy to upgrade if you want to try it. I always used wire-wrap wire, but soldered, for the extra four address lines. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 6 08:08:22 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 14:08:22 +0000 Subject: 11/23 and 11/73 compatibility In-Reply-To: <4D25970A.1000306@update.uu.se> References: <4D231DE5.5060406@update.uu.se> <4D23476E.4040002@dunnington.plus.com> <4D25970A.1000306@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D25CCD6.9050300@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2011 10:18, Pontus wrote: > In the 11/23 the bootstrap is on the BDV11 card if I haven't > misunderstood. Is the MXV11 an equivalent or a more modern card? Yes, your 11/23 bootstrap is on the BDV11, normally. But the MXV11-A also has a bootstrap. You can disable the bootstrap on either card, so if they were both in the same system, one of them will be disabled. The BDV11 is a bit more versatile in a few ways. You can rejig it by changing wire-wrap links to accommodate different (EP)ROM sizes and mapping arrangements, and thereby use larger bootstraps, albeit spread over several ROMs. It's rather tedious to do this, though; you'll see what I mean if you look at the manual. If you're determined you can even replace a couple of the 24-pin sockets with 28-pin ones and put larger EPROMs on it; I have an 11/23 running with a large bootstrap in 2 28-pin EPROMs. The point of telling you that is that it's one way you could put an 11/73 bootstrap in it. The way the BDV11 mapping hardware works is compatible with the later bootstraps for 11/73 etc. Also, although most BDV11s are 18-bit, that only refers to the bus termination. The I/O functions use BBS7 to decode the I/O page so the cards will work in a 22-bit system and if yours is only 18-bit, ECO M8012-ML005 upgrades the termination to 22-bit and is easy to do. Rev E and later already have that. But see the note below about your BA23 box. As for the MXV11, it's about the same vintage as the BDV11. It was meant as a multifunction card for small systems. Instead of building an 11/03 or 11/23 with CPU, memory, SLU card, and bootstrap/terminator, you can do it all with a CPU and an MXV11 -- two dual cards. It makes a very neat tiny system, and at least a couple of us on the list have systems like that, but it only supports 18-bit memory addressing. The MXV11-B is a completely different card, and that does have an 11/73-compatible bootstrap (as well as much more memory). > I seem to lack one crucial part for my 11/73 system then. Not necessarily, if you're willing to either re-configure or to modify your BDV11. There may be some suitable bootstrap ROM images on certain websites :-) (hint: look at the directories one level above where you found my Q-Bus chassis files) > I have a BA23 (with space for drives that slide out in front) I don't > know what backplane (it is in storage now). The CPU is the dual-height > M8192. I got the chassis and CPU from different places. While a quad-height KDJ11-B and some PMI memory would be nicer, still your dual-height CPU, plus SLUs, bootstrap, and memory will give you a reasonable system. The backplane in a BA23 is always an H9278, which has Q22-CD in the top three slots and Q22-Q22 in serpentine arrangement under that. You can use a dual-height or quad-height CPU in the first slot with up to two cards that need CD-interconnect (or most dual- or quad-height QBus cards, so long as they only need QBus on sections A and B) below that, or use a quad-height KDJ11-B CPU in the second or third slot and put PMI memory in the ones above. Your DZV11 may be worth keeping for extra serial lines in this context, but it can't be used for a console SLU -- you need a DLV11 of some variety for that (your DLV11-J, or the MXV11-A with everything but the SLUs disabled). Your BA23 has a backplane with pluggable terminations, so you don't need the BDV11 for bus termination (nor LTC control), only bootstrap. You don't want to have two sets of terminators, but you can remove the terminating resistor packs from either the backplane or the BDV11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 6 08:54:05 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 06:54:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD-80 debugger... Message-ID: I've been asked to re-instate the download for the DSD-80 full screen debugger that I had up here: http://www.retroarchive.org/cpm/lang/lang.htm Since TCJ is essentially dead and buried, does anyone know who I can contact in order to get some kind of permission to put that back up for download? Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jan 6 11:08:54 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 12:08:54 -0500 Subject: Bringing tapes to Room Temp? Message-ID: Zane writes: > I'm getting ready to test out my 9-Track tape drive before hauling it > into work for some data recovery. I have a box of brand new tapes, > which unfortunately haven't been stored under ideal conditions for > most of their life (they're probably about 20 years old). Currently > they're in the garage, which at the moment is close to freezing. How > should I go about bringing the tapes to room temp? If they've been stored under poor conditions for 20 years, I'm not sure exactly how they're treated in the next few days is gonna matter. If they had data on them and had seen temperature swings, you might want to retension them before using. But if they're blank and gonna be used for testing the transport anyway, hard to see how this can matter. I would be hesitant to retension a tape with valuable data on a drive that had the head in contact with the tape. (Stiction). Retensioning is far from a cure-all. Why does the concept of retensioning exist at all? If a tape is stored under adverse temperature or humidity conditions, the different rate of thermal expansion of the reel and tape, or between the inner tape and outer tape, can cause "bumps" to form in the winding and require an uneven rate of rotation of the hub to spool off the tape at 25 IPS or 75 IPS or whatever the drive runs at. Tim. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 6 12:20:14 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 18:20:14 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working Message-ID: <001801cbadce$5e8eb4b0$1bac1e10$@ntlworld.com> A while back I mentioned that I have a MicroVAX 3400 with one of the H7868 PSUs not wanting to work (green light fails to come on). I have just tried the "faulty" PSU in a MicroVAX 3500 and it works just fine. I took a PSU from the 3500 and put it in the 3400 and it does not work in the 3400 either, only in the 3500. So clearly there is something else that is causing the problem and I am looking for suggestions, especially as the machine is in an awkward location and hard to dismantle speculatively. As a reminder this machine was working fine and I had not done anything at all to it prior to its failure, I had not moved it, changed any components or anything. Regards Rob From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jan 6 12:56:59 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 13:56:59 -0500 Subject: Wanted - 44 Pin expansion cards for Cosmac Elf Message-ID: Nick writes: > Or even some blank prototype style boards would be helpful. 44-pin edge prototype boards are still readily available: http://www.vectorelect.com/Product/Plugbord/PB44C.htm Many in stock at Digikey, Mouser, etc. Probably hanging with The other vector stuff at any surviving local electronics shop(s) Near you. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jan 6 13:53:16 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 14:53:16 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > A while back I mentioned that I have a MicroVAX 3400 with one of the H7868 > PSUs not wanting to work (green light fails to come on). I have just tried > the "faulty" PSU in a MicroVAX 3500 and it works just fine. I took a PSU > from the 3500 and put it in the 3400 and it does not work in the 3400 > either, only in the 3500. So clearly there is something else that is causing > the problem and I am looking for suggestions, especially as the machine is > in an awkward location and hard to dismantle speculatively. As a reminder > this machine was working fine and I had not done anything at all to it prior > to its failure, I had not moved it, changed any components or anything Without sufficient DC load the H7868 will fail to start up. One supply goes to half the slots. There's a Q-bus card That is nothing but a bunch of power resistors for this situation, although I Usually preferred to put in a KDA50 set 'cuz I had a bunch of those :-). Tim. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 6 14:33:13 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 20:33:13 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working Message-ID: <001901cbade0$f25705a0$d70510e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Shoppa, Tim > Sent: 06 January 2011 19:53 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: > > > A while back I mentioned that I have a MicroVAX 3400 with one of the > > H7868 PSUs not wanting to work (green light fails to come on). I have > > just tried the "faulty" PSU in a MicroVAX 3500 and it works just fine. > > I took a PSU from the 3500 and put it in the 3400 and it does not work > > in the 3400 either, only in the 3500. So clearly there is something > > else that is causing the problem and I am looking for suggestions, > > especially as the machine is in an awkward location and hard to > > dismantle speculatively. As a reminder this machine was working fine > > and I had not done anything at all to it prior to its failure, I had > > not moved it, changed any components or anything > > Without sufficient DC load the H7868 will fail to start up. > > One supply goes to half the slots. There's a Q-bus card That is nothing but a > bunch of power resistors for this situation, although I Usually preferred to put in > a KDA50 set 'cuz I had a bunch of those :-). > > Tim. (adding subject line back) In this case I think the load should be there because it is the right hand PSU that won't start, this powers the 6 slots on the right and these contain the memory and CPU, so there should be enough load for the PSU to work. There is indeed a resistor card in the leftmost slot, but the left hand PSU lights up fine. Regards Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 6 14:31:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 20:31:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: <001801cbadce$5e8eb4b0$1bac1e10$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 6, 11 06:20:14 pm Message-ID: > > A while back I mentioned that I have a MicroVAX 3400 with one of the H7868 > PSUs not wanting to work (green light fails to come on). I have just tried > the "faulty" PSU in a MicroVAX 3500 and it works just fine. I took a PSU > from the 3500 and put it in the 3400 and it does not work in the 3400 > either, only in the 3500. So clearly there is something else that is causing > the problem and I am looking for suggestions, especially as the machine is > in an awkward location and hard to dismantle speculatively. As a reminder > this machine was working fine and I had not done anything at all to it prior > to its failure, I had not moved it, changed any components or anything. My first thoguht is the obvious one, taht something in the 3400 is shorted and overloading one of the outputs of the PSU that isn't coming on. Could it be something as trivial (but not trivial to find!) as a decoupling capacitor that's shorted? -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 16:54:11 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 16:54:11 -0600 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 4, 2011 at 10:55 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> How can you tell? ?It's practically impossible to read the numbers. > > ? The logo of the manufacturer :) I talked to someone who used to be involved with bill's board. He pointed me to this: http://olson-ndt.com/AMIGA/BusExpander/ Looks like there's schematics, information about trace errors on the board, and some experimental equations for the PALs, but apparently the originals are lost. brian From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 6 19:38:56 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 18:38:56 -0700 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Brian Lanning writes: > Looks like there's schematics, information about trace errors on the > board, and some experimental equations for the PALs, but apparently > the originals are lost. PALs are simple two-level programmable logic. It shouldn't be hard to create a truth table from the real PALs by adapting them to a PROM reader. From there you can recreate PAL equations from the truth table. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 6 19:43:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 20:43:30 -0500 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D266FC2.2040906@neurotica.com> On 1/6/11 8:38 PM, Richard wrote: >> Looks like there's schematics, information about trace errors on the >> board, and some experimental equations for the PALs, but apparently >> the originals are lost. > > PALs are simple two-level programmable logic. It shouldn't be hard to > create a truth table from the real PALs by adapting them to a PROM > reader. From there you can recreate PAL equations from the truth > table. It's a bit tougher when they're registered and can maintain (relatively) complex state, though. Many (most?) PALs are registered. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 6 20:08:05 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 02:08:05 +0000 Subject: Discferret questions In-Reply-To: <4D22BC10.5020802@tx.rr.com> References: <4D2168FF.7040604@tx.rr.com> <4D22BC10.5020802@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D267585.7020505@philpem.me.uk> On 04/01/11 06:20, Charlie Carothers wrote: > I believe you're correct. I don't do all that many builds and have not > used MSI yet, but that appears to be a quite nice board. The user > reviews do seem a bit mixed, although the poor grammar in many of the > 1-egg ones makes me wonder about the general intelligence and technical > competence of the reviewer. I think the Gigabyte boards I quickly looked > at were a bit lower on the performance curve than your MSI one. I guess > one is lucky to get even one 2-device PATA port and one original type > PCI slot these days. Deviating from the "stated goal" of classiccmp for a minute... From personal experience, my ranking of motherboard manufacturers goes something like this, in order of best to worst: 1. Gigabyte (tied with MSI) -- generally speaking, they make boards that are a little below the performance curve, but are insanely well-built. I might still have one of their early Pentium boards (GA586ATM) -- if I still have it, I know it still works. Or it would if I hadn't stolen the cache ram for another machine (ahem). 2. MSI (tied with Gigabyte) -- rebuilt a lot of machines based on MS6147 Slot One (Celeron/P2) boards. Never saw a dead board... 3. Jetway -- the JNC92 Atom ITX board is REAL nice, especially when you bolt on the 3xGbE expansion board -- I've got one in my home server. Real workhorse, but the fools locked out the NX-bit in the BIOS (grrrr!) 4. Biostar -- lovely AMD boards, got one in the PVR. Cheap and cheerful. The SB600 chipset in the PVR is a bit braindead, but that's AMD's fault, not Biostar's. 5. ASUS -- Awful customer service, reasonable boards. RMA'd a motherboard at significant cost, and got back someone else's broken board. Called them up on it, and they washed their hands of it. Sod that for a game of soldiers. 6. PC Chips and all their many and varied alter-egos. These are the worst motherboards money can buy -- pirated BIOSes (allegedly), zero after-sales support, shoddy build quality. The only guarantee on these is that it'll fail within the 3-month (or whatever) warranty.... or that the guarantee isn't worth the paper it's printed on... take your pick :) ECS/Elitegroup were pretty good, but I don't think they make motherboards any more. They were the only major manufacturer to admit to screwing up during the Capacitor Plague debacle, while everyone else played the Ostrich Game ("bury your head in the sand and hope the problem goes away"). > I suspect my PC performance needs tend to be a bit lower than many, and > as a result I view many of the "improvements" as just a scheme to move > more $ out of my account. True. The Intel Q6600 was a nice chip, 2.4GHz and cheap, but would run stable at ~3GHz air-cooled. Bolt on a vapour-phase cooler or water-cooling rig and you could get 3.5GHz out of them, easy, or 4GHz on a good motherboard (Nforce chipset). Intel chipsets are, in general, pretty diabolical... The machine I'm working on now has an "interesting" issue with SATA-to-SATA transfers. If you transfer data from a SATA drive to USB or LAN, you can get ~50Mbytes/sec (assuming you're running fairly fast drives). Try and copy from one SATA drive to another, and it drops to about 4MBytes/sec max..... The funny thing is, this only affects SA0 and SA1, the first two SATA channels. Drop the hard drives on SA2, SA3, SA4 or SA5, and it's fine... Also: don't even think of using the JMicron ATA controller on the Asus Rampage Formula and similar boards. It'll happily slow the storage subsystem down even further... Turn it off in the BIOS, and get a SATA DVD drive instead (LG drives are tanks but have CD/DVD ripping countermeasures in the firmware; LiteOns are cheap but very hackable)... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com Thu Jan 6 20:17:34 2011 From: Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com (Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:17:34 +0800 Subject: Looking for CMD CQD-220A /223A EPROM images Message-ID: I would love to get EPROM images for a CMD CQD-220A/223A with the Tape AND Disk function in my inbox. Currently only having the Tape OR Disk function and really keen to do the brain surgery. The results Glen found recently are promising and I'm quite positive to successfully modify my controller as well. Does anyone have a CMD CQD-220A/TM or CQD-223A/TM and an EPROM programmer or other means of reading the EPROM images that could send me a copy? Your help is highly appreciated Thanks & Regards. Bernhard From julian at twinax.org Thu Jan 6 22:16:43 2011 From: julian at twinax.org (Julian Wolfe) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 22:16:43 -0600 Subject: Looking for CMD CQD-220A /223A EPROM images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00ab01cbae21$b1c5b8b0$15512a10$@org> I also could use this functionality, if anyone has it at hand. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 8:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for CMD CQD-220A /223A EPROM images I would love to get EPROM images for a CMD CQD-220A/223A with the Tape AND Disk function in my inbox. Currently only having the Tape OR Disk function and really keen to do the brain surgery. The results Glen found recently are promising and I'm quite positive to successfully modify my controller as well. Does anyone have a CMD CQD-220A/TM or CQD-223A/TM and an EPROM programmer or other means of reading the EPROM images that could send me a copy? Your help is highly appreciated Thanks & Regards. Bernhard From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 6 22:22:00 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 23:22:00 -0500 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: <4D266FC2.2040906@neurotica.com> References: <4D266FC2.2040906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 8:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?It's a bit tougher when they're registered and can maintain (relatively) > complex state, though. ?Many (most?) PALs are registered. When I used to work with real MMI PALs in the 1980s, we used *lots* of "H" and "L" parts with only about 5% "R" (Registered) parts (10H8, 14L2...) Could have been a cost thing. Could have been a designer prejudice thing. GALs, though, are a different story, since AFAIK, for all intents and purposes, all outputs are registered (but the flip-flop can be bypassed if the logic terms don't "activate" it). I haven't fully explored GAL complexity, but my understanding is that for the same size of package, one GAL can assume the function of any of the PALs its size (i.e., a 16V8 can be programmed as a drop-in replacement for a 10H8 or 16L2 or 12R6, etc). Then there's the security bit. I don't think we ever set it on ours, but companies paranoid about knockoffs did. -ethan From frebird2 at swbell.net Thu Jan 6 22:42:15 2011 From: frebird2 at swbell.net (chris candrl) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:42:15 -0600 Subject: HP Firesale (Jay West memorabilia) Message-ID: <4D2699A7.50104@swbell.net> Yes, you can own a piece of computing history. Jay West - the man, the myth, the legend - has spent a few cycles using THIS equipment. What we have here folks is a working, rack mounted, HP 9000 K class box. At least it was working when we shut it down 5 years ago. My memory is a bit fuzzy, but I believe that all of the processor slots were filled and it may have been maxed out on ram as well. Peripherals include: (2) HP 6000 SCSI SX-W rackmount enclosures each with 4 gig scsi drives. There is a 3rd drive bay - but I forgot to write the model down. It is larger (8u) than the SX-W boxes. A second HP rack contains (2) Surestore E disk array 12H (also known as AutoRAID) -- each with 12 drives. They appear to be a mix of 4, 9 and 18 gig drives. At least that is what is marked on the drive caddies. Completing the lot is a Citoh 800Q printer, and a Printronix MVP printer. If you act fast, I'll even throw in not one, not two but (3) DTC 72MX's AND all the cabling! I also may have all of the original, printed documentation to go along with this treasure. With a deal like this, how can you refuse? All offers, reaonable and unreasonable accepted. Location: St. Louis. If someone doesn't want this, e-recycling is the next stop. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 6 22:47:31 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 20:47:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP Firesale (Jay West memorabilia) In-Reply-To: <4D2699A7.50104@swbell.net> from chris candrl at "Jan 6, 11 10:42:15 pm" Message-ID: <201101070447.p074lV6Y011168@floodgap.com> > Yes, you can own a piece of computing history. Jay West - the man, the > myth, the legend - has spent a few cycles using THIS equipment. What we > have here folks is a working, rack mounted, HP 9000 K class box. Man, I liked the K-class series. I'd take it if I had the space. My first "real" IT job was feeding a K-class running Informix that we used for CARS (now Jenzabar) at the university. Last I saw it, the K was the ODBC backend to the Resource25 system we were playing with for resource allocation. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FOOLS! I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL! ASK ME HOW! -- "Girl Genius" 8/29/07 -------- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 7 00:18:08 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 06 Jan 2011 22:18:08 -0800 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay Message-ID: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> Not my auction, but looks pretty danged neat. Price isn't too bad. eBay Item 220721080577. Looks cool, wish I lived a little closer :). - Josh From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 00:22:51 2011 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 22:22:51 -0800 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Not my auction, but looks pretty danged neat. ?Price isn't too bad. ?eBay > Item 220721080577. > > Looks cool, wish I lived a little closer :). > > - Josh No kidding... I live close enough, but I don't have $200 and my significant other would have a major fit. :) Mark From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 7 01:50:32 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 02:50:32 -0500 Subject: Anyone doing a shipping run soon??? Message-ID: <4D26C5C8.7020001@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I am purchasing a piece of manufacturing equipment from Wisconsin and I'm located in New York. Unit is a cabinet styled device, roughly the same as a Vax 11/750 unit, about 300 lbs. Anyone doing any runs in the Midwest<-->North East anytime soon, otherwise I'll have to call a freight carrier, but I prefer someone on the list who knows how to properly handle larger size electronic devices. Thanks, Curt From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 7 02:02:02 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 03:02:02 -0500 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> What is that open circle area on the far right side of the keyboard?! Don't tell me that its some kind of touchpad system or perhaps a pen input area? Never seen a kb like that before. Mark Davidson wrote: > On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Not my auction, but looks pretty danged neat. Price isn't too bad. eBay >> Item 220721080577. >> >> Looks cool, wish I lived a little closer :). >> >> - Josh >> > > No kidding... I live close enough, but I don't have $200 and my > significant other would have a major fit. :) > > Mark > > From halarewich at gmail.com Fri Jan 7 02:45:48 2011 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 00:45:48 -0800 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: Copied from digibarn "*Look carefully at the right side of the keyboard. That round circle is a CAT -- a touch sensitive pad that worked like a mouse"* *Chris* On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > What is that open circle area on the far right side of the keyboard?! > > Don't tell me that its some kind of touchpad system or perhaps a pen input > area? Never seen a kb like that before. > > > > > > Mark Davidson wrote: > >> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Josh Dersch >> wrote: >> >> >>> Not my auction, but looks pretty danged neat. Price isn't too bad. eBay >>> Item 220721080577. >>> >>> Looks cool, wish I lived a little closer :). >>> >>> - Josh >>> >>> >> >> No kidding... I live close enough, but I don't have $200 and my >> significant other would have a major fit. :) >> >> Mark >> >> >> > From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Fri Jan 7 08:41:45 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 08:41:45 -0600 Subject: HP Firesale (Jay West memorabilia) In-Reply-To: <201101070447.p074lV6Y011168@floodgap.com> References: <4D2699A7.50104@swbell.net> from chris candrl at "Jan 6, 11 10:42:15 pm" <201101070447.p074lV6Y011168@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46FB2@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I used to take care of a K360 (among other hpux systems) running the regent system at the college. (our old K360, T600 and H70 are all long gone though.....sigh..). -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cameron Kaiser Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 10:48 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP Firesale (Jay West memorabilia) > Yes, you can own a piece of computing history. Jay West - the man, the > myth, the legend - has spent a few cycles using THIS equipment. What we > have here folks is a working, rack mounted, HP 9000 K class box. Man, I liked the K-class series. I'd take it if I had the space. My first "real" IT job was feeding a K-class running Informix that we used for CARS (now Jenzabar) at the university. Last I saw it, the K was the ODBC backend to the Resource25 system we were playing with for resource allocation. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FOOLS! I WILL DESTROY YOU ALL! ASK ME HOW! -- "Girl Genius" 8/29/07 -------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 7 10:21:15 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 11:21:15 -0500 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> That is VERY COOL !!! :-) I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF show, I'd love to see it working... That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free time to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone interested in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no monitors or keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a nice stockpile of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found the chance/time to pursue. Email me off-list if interested. Curt Chris Halarewich wrote: > Copied from digibarn > > "*Look carefully at the right side of the keyboard. That round circle is a > CAT -- a touch sensitive pad that worked like a mouse"* > *Chris* > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum > wrote: > > >> What is that open circle area on the far right side of the keyboard?! >> >> Don't tell me that its some kind of touchpad system or perhaps a pen input >> area? Never seen a kb like that before. >> >> >> >> >> >> Mark Davidson wrote: >> >> >>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Josh Dersch >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Not my auction, but looks pretty danged neat. Price isn't too bad. eBay >>>> Item 220721080577. >>>> >>>> Looks cool, wish I lived a little closer :). >>>> >>>> - Josh >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> No kidding... I live close enough, but I don't have $200 and my >>> significant other would have a major fit. :) >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> > > From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 7 10:25:36 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 11:25:36 -0500 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> We have one in the MARCH collection. I'm not sure about its status. On 01/07/2011 11:21 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > That is VERY COOL !!! :-) > > I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF > show, I'd love to see it working... > > That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" > systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free time > to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone interested > in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no monitors or > keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a nice stockpile > of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found the chance/time > to pursue. > > Email me off-list if interested. > > > Curt > From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 7 10:32:42 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 11:32:42 -0500 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D27402A.102@atarimuseum.com> Evan - maybe you could set it out on display in one of the March room's, so people could see it, even if it may not be functional... Evan Koblentz wrote: > We have one in the MARCH collection. I'm not sure about its status. > > > On 01/07/2011 11:21 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> That is VERY COOL !!! :-) >> >> I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF >> show, I'd love to see it working... >> >> That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" >> systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free >> time to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone >> interested in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no >> monitors or keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a >> nice stockpile of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found >> the chance/time to pursue. >> >> Email me off-list if interested. >> >> >> Curt >> > From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 7 10:43:50 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 11:43:50 -0500 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D27402A.102@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> <4D27402A.102@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D2742C6.9030908@snarc.net> We intend to. Our museum expansion (from 900 square feet of public exhibit space to more than 3,000) is currently on hold because of some bureaucratic issues. We anticipate re-starting our expansion by this summer. Right now our group has two major projects -- 1. Putting some effort into organizing / cataloging our vast collection; 2., Planning for VCF East 7.0. > Evan - maybe you could set it out on display in one of the March > room's, so people could see it, even if it may not be functional... > > > > > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> We have one in the MARCH collection. I'm not sure about its status. >> >> >> On 01/07/2011 11:21 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> That is VERY COOL !!! :-) >>> >>> I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF >>> show, I'd love to see it working... >>> >>> That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" >>> systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free >>> time to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone >>> interested in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no >>> monitors or keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a >>> nice stockpile of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found >>> the chance/time to pursue. >>> >>> Email me off-list if interested. >>> >>> >>> Curt >>> >> > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Jan 7 10:45:46 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:45:46 -0600 (CST) Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > We have one in the MARCH collection. I'm not sure about its status. I have an 860IPS also, with some documentation and word processing software, although not nearly as much as this eBay chap has. I picked it up from an author in Minneapolis who used it to write his masterpieces on. I've never actually gotten around to turning it on, at first because the queue of things ahead of it was too long, and then later because the hand-grenade-sized capacitors in the PSU made me nervous. One of these days I must build/purchase a cap tester. Anyone got one spare? ;) Random pictures, for anyone who is interested: http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_front.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_keyboard.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_screen.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_printer.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_open_PSU_out.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_open_backside.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_CPU_card.jpg - JP > On 01/07/2011 11:21 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > That is VERY COOL !!! :-) > > > > I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF > > show, I'd love to see it working... > > > > That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" > > systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free time > > to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone interested > > in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no monitors or > > keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a nice stockpile > > of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found the chance/time > > to pursue. > > > > Email me off-list if interested. > > > > > > Curt > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 7 11:17:17 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 09:17:17 -0800 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net>, Message-ID: In a machine of this vintage, it's the safest bet to just replace those big filter caps. BTW, nice looking system! -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of JP Hindin [jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com] Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 8:45 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay On Fri, 7 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > We have one in the MARCH collection. I'm not sure about its status. I have an 860IPS also, with some documentation and word processing software, although not nearly as much as this eBay chap has. I picked it up from an author in Minneapolis who used it to write his masterpieces on. I've never actually gotten around to turning it on, at first because the queue of things ahead of it was too long, and then later because the hand-grenade-sized capacitors in the PSU made me nervous. One of these days I must build/purchase a cap tester. Anyone got one spare? ;) Random pictures, for anyone who is interested: http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_front.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_keyboard.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_screen.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_printer.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_open_PSU_out.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_open_backside.jpg http://www.kiwigeek.com/hjp/comps/Xerox_860/Xerox860_CPU_card.jpg - JP > On 01/07/2011 11:21 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > That is VERY COOL !!! :-) > > > > I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF > > show, I'd love to see it working... > > > > That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" > > systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free time > > to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone interested > > in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no monitors or > > keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a nice stockpile > > of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found the chance/time > > to pursue. > > > > Email me off-list if interested. > > > > > > Curt > > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 7 13:01:04 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 12:01:04 -0700 Subject: museum cataloging (was: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay) In-Reply-To: <4D2742C6.9030908@snarc.net> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> <4D27402A.102@atarimuseum.com> <4D2742C6.9030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4D2742C6.9030908 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > Right now our group has two major projects -- 1. Putting some effort > into organizing / cataloging our vast collection; 2., Planning for VCF > East 7.0. I did a little research the last time we talked about cataloging and I found these open source packages for museum cataloging: Here's another one that looks interesting: Any thoughts/opinions on either of these? This *looked* interesting, until I realized that there is nothing to download, just a lot of "plans" and "announcement" type pages. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 7 13:11:52 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:11:52 -0500 Subject: museum cataloging In-Reply-To: References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> <4D27402A.102@atarimuseum.com> <4D2742C6.9030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D276578.1030103@snarc.net> >> Right now our group has two major projects -- 1. Putting some effort into organizing / cataloging our vast collection; 2., Planning for VCF East 7.0. > I did a little research the last time we talked about cataloging and I found these open source packages for museum cataloging .... Any thoughts/opinions on either of these? No, I haven't looked at anything tool-wise. I'm sure they all have pros and cons. Our issue is more on the human resources side. Our museum is open to the public every Sunday; I think what we're going to do is close for a few weeks and have our volunteers focus on doing inventory. From shumaker at att.net Fri Jan 7 14:35:02 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 12:35:02 -0800 Subject: museum cataloging In-Reply-To: References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> <4D273E80.1020504@snarc.net> <4D27402A.102@atarimuseum.com> <4D2742C6.9030908@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D2778F6.3060303@att.net> the Madrona "about us" page makes an interesting statement: Zero One Design Company was founded in 1997 but got interested in collections management back in 1993 when "work on an early collections management system, Superbase, piqued their interest" details... details... details... isn't that what collections management is all about? back to sleep now..... s2 On 1/7/2011 11:01 AM, Richard wrote: > In article<4D2742C6.9030908 at snarc.net>, > Evan Koblentz writes: > > >> Right now our group has two major projects -- 1. Putting some effort >> into organizing / cataloging our vast collection; 2., Planning for VCF >> East 7.0. >> > I did a little research the last time we talked about cataloging and I > found these open source packages for museum cataloging: > > > > Here's another one that looks interesting: > > > Any thoughts/opinions on either of these? > > This *looked* interesting, until I realized that there is nothing to > download, just a lot of "plans" and "announcement" type pages. > > > From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 7 15:26:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 14:26:11 -0700 Subject: HP-HIL (Human Interface Link) specification? Message-ID: Does anyone have a working URL for the HIL specification? The one on wikipedia doesn't work anymore. I didn't find anything on bitsavers or in manx. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 7 13:28:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 19:28:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 6, 11 06:38:56 pm Message-ID: > PALs are simple two-level programmable logic. It shouldn't be hard to > create a truth table from the real PALs by adapting them to a PROM > reader. From there you can recreate PAL equations from the truth > table. The rpoblem comes when the PAL is not simple combinatorial logic, but implements sequiential functions too. There are 2 main ways this can happen. Firslty, there are registered PALs (often with an 'R' in the part number) which hae intenral D-tpye flip-flops. The D inputs come from the programmable logic, the Q outputs are availabe on external pins _and are fed back to the logic internally_. So you can make state machines, etc. The second way is that some 'normal' PALs have feedback terms. That is the outputs of the progamamble logic array not only goes ot output pins but also back into the logic array. You can make SR flip-flops vry easily this way. Wth sequential logic, you can't just try all the inputs, record the outputs nad reduce the logic equations... Iunderstnd there are some early-vrsion PAL equations for this device avaialble. Has anyone looked at them to see what htey do? Is it purely combinatorial (e.g. address decoers), or are there sequential functions too? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 7 14:21:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 20:21:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 6, 11 11:22:00 pm Message-ID: > size of package, one GAL can assume the function of any of the PALs > its size (i.e., a 16V8 can be programmed as a drop-in replacement for > a 10H8 or 16L2 or 12R6, etc). Almost, but not quite. The GAL cna replace _most_ of the PALs, but it doesn't have XOR terms, so it won;'t replae thigns liek a 16X4. Yes, i have seen those used. > Then there's the security bit. I don't think we ever set it on ours, > but companies paranoid about knockoffs did. A lot of companies, particularly in the early days relied on what one of the 'Art of Electronics' books called 'Secrity though solder'. They didn't blow the security fuise, but they soldered the PAL to the PCB. If you were able to remove it without damage, you could get the equations. But then there were HALs (Hard Array Logic), which were essentially mask programmed PALs. Similar part numbers (a HAL10L8 is the mask-programemd PAL10L8, etc. AFAIK there was no way to read the fuse map out of these devices they were effective all secured. -tony From shumaker at att.net Fri Jan 7 15:51:19 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 13:51:19 -0800 Subject: IBM 026 on EPAY In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D278AD7.2080500@att.net> item no 190487994052 IBM 026 punch in Manassas, VA offered by a recycler outfit $500 BIN or offer s2 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jan 7 15:56:34 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 16:56:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: IBM 026 on EPAY In-Reply-To: <4D278AD7.2080500@att.net> References: <4D278AD7.2080500@att.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Jan 2011, steve shumaker wrote: > item no 190487994052 > > IBM 026 punch in Manassas, VA offered by a recycler outfit > > $500 BIN or offer Yuck - major rust and corrosion. Much as I'd like to find one, it looks like too much work. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 6 08:10:57 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2011 14:10:57 -0000 Subject: HP drives References: Message-ID: <000801cbaebb$b1bc5be0$a63d5f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 6:35 PM Subject: Re: HP drives > Alas they don't :-(. I've heard the term 'track' used for hard drives > when they meant 'cylinders'. ARGH!!! > > -tony I thought you could only read/write to the top layer of the harddrive platter, or do some drives allow writing to both sides? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 7 17:39:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 15:39:19 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <000801cbaebb$b1bc5be0$a63d5f0a@user8459cef6fa> References: , <000801cbaebb$b1bc5be0$a63d5f0a@user8459cef6fa> Message-ID: <4D2733A7.29453.658D1BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jan 2011 at 14:10, Andrew Burton wrote: > I thought you could only read/write to the top layer of the harddrive > platter, or do some drives allow writing to both sides? Writing to both sides of a platter has been the way since the IBM 350 RAMAC drive. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 7 22:34:53 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 07 Jan 2011 20:34:53 -0800 Subject: HP-HIL (Human Interface Link) specification? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D27E96D.5080408@bitsavers.org> On 1/7/11 1:26 PM, Richard wrote: > Does anyone have a working URL for the HIL specification? The one on > wikipedia doesn't work anymore. I didn't find anything on bitsavers > or in manx. 1820-4784revB_SDC_Sep86 under the 9000/300 is a start HP-HIL Technical Reference Manual 45918A would be a nice thing to find From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 8 14:13:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 20:13:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <000801cbaebb$b1bc5be0$a63d5f0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Jan 6, 11 02:10:57 pm Message-ID: > > Alas they don't :-(. I've heard the term 'track' used for hard drives > > when they meant 'cylinders'. ARGH!!! > > > > -tony > > > I thought you could only read/write to the top layer of the harddrive > platter, or do some drives allow writing to both sides? Except for a ferw very odd ones (e.g. hard drives which record analagoue singals such as analogue video [1]) every hard disk I've worked on has used both sides of all platters for something. Maybe not user data storage (for excample, it may contain servo information only), but there will be a head on it. [1[] Yes such things did exist. They were used for action replays on TV, for exmaple. And somewhere I have a vido output system for the PDP11 which uses a special hard disk as its video memeory). In the context of a hard disk, though, a 'cylinder' means all the tracks that can be accessed without moving the heads. So if you have 4 data surfaces (such as the ST412), a cylinder contains 4 tracks. In an RK07, which has 3 data surfaces and 1 servo surface, as cylinder it 3 tracks. And so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 8 15:06:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 21:06:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-HIL (Human Interface Link) specification? In-Reply-To: <4D27E96D.5080408@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jan 7, 11 08:34:53 pm Message-ID: > HP-HIL Technical Reference Manual 45918A > would be a nice thing to find I am looking for it too... It is not on any of the obvious web sites. I hae checked, I don;t have it on paper, and nor is it in the HPCC libarary collection if I did I would have made arrangements to get it scanned. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 8 20:34:10 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2011 19:34:10 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds enhanced Message-ID: I've enhanced the bitsavers RSS feeds to provide links to the individual folders and not just the files. So if you see a new entry and want to browse the folder containing that entry, its only one click away. PDF Bits I've made the script change just now, so it will reflect in the RSS feed itself as its generated in the future. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 8 20:52:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2011 19:52:11 -0700 Subject: HP-HIL (Human Interface Link) specification? In-Reply-To: <4D27E96D.5080408@bitsavers.org> References: <4D27E96D.5080408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D27E96D.5080408 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 1/7/11 1:26 PM, Richard wrote: > > Does anyone have a working URL for the HIL specification? The one on > > wikipedia doesn't work anymore. I didn't find anything on bitsavers > > or in manx. > > 1820-4784revB_SDC_Sep86 under the 9000/300 is a start > > HP-HIL Technical Reference Manual 45918A > would be a nice thing to find I found some links to articles in HP Journal: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 8 21:06:16 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2011 20:06:16 -0700 Subject: HP-HIL (Human Interface Link) specification? In-Reply-To: References: <4D27E96D.5080408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article , Richard writes: > I found some links to articles in HP Journal: > > > Woops, that first one is HP-IL, not HP-HIL. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sat Jan 8 20:59:03 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 00:59:03 -0200 Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project References: <4D266FC2.2040906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9363E7D900D148E2B54D3EC047AE49B6@portajara> > It's a bit tougher when they're registered and can maintain (relatively) > complex state, though. Many (most?) PALs are registered. I still think it is easier to look at the circuit, understanding how it works and recreating the equations... (ha ha ha, I have a logic analyser, I can do anything up to 400MHz, la la la, I'm the greatest hacker of the world, la la la) :oD From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Jan 9 08:18:32 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 15:18:32 +0100 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> 2010-10-20 21:12, Richard skrev: > In article<010f01cb7086$d2a94bb0$77fbe310$@ntlworld.com>, > "Rob Jarratt" writes: > >> One question though: a lot of documents were only hosted on vt100.net, have >> these documents also been moved? > No, but Paul Williams who runs vt100.net is on the manx developer > list, so I've asked him about that. Currently you get a message dated > February 2010 that says the stuff will be back "in a few days". Did you get an answer from Paul? I trying to configure a DECserver 100 and could use documents originally on Pauls site. Kind Regards, Pontus. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 9 10:39:29 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 16:39:29 -0000 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <005e01cbb01b$cb648840$622d98c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Pontus > Sent: 09 January 2011 14:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: the new manx is live > > 2010-10-20 21:12, Richard skrev: > > In article<010f01cb7086$d2a94bb0$77fbe310$@ntlworld.com>, > > "Rob Jarratt" writes: > > > >> One question though: a lot of documents were only hosted on > >> vt100.net, have these documents also been moved? > > No, but Paul Williams who runs vt100.net is on the manx developer > > list, so I've asked him about that. Currently you get a message dated > > February 2010 that says the stuff will be back "in a few days". > > Did you get an answer from Paul? I trying to configure a DECserver 100 and > could use documents originally on Pauls site. > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. No, the only answer I ever got was the one you replied to. It really would be great to recover the documents that were only on Paul's site. Regards Rob From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 9 11:02:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:02:18 -0700 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: In article <4D29C3B8.6050005 at update.uu.se>, Pontus writes: > 2010-10-20 21:12, Richard skrev: > > In article<010f01cb7086$d2a94bb0$77fbe310$@ntlworld.com>, > > "Rob Jarratt" writes: > > > >> One question though: a lot of documents were only hosted on vt100.net, hav e > >> these documents also been moved? > > No, but Paul Williams who runs vt100.net is on the manx developer > > list, so I've asked him about that. Currently you get a message dated > > February 2010 that says the stuff will be back "in a few days". > > Did you get an answer from Paul? Nope. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Sun Jan 9 11:14:51 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 12:14:51 -0500 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:02:18 MST.) References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> >>> One question though: a lot of documents were only hosted on vt100.net, have >>> these documents also been moved? >> No, but Paul Williams who runs vt100.net is on the manx developer >> list, so I've asked him about that. Currently you get a message dated >> February 2010 that says the stuff will be back "in a few days". So on casual inspection, the main thing missing seems to be the /mirror tree. I have a mirror of /mirror (!) from 2005 that might serve as a stopgap. I've placed a tarball of it at: http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/vt100.net_mirror.tar File is just over 11 GB. I don't have an organized place to host this; perhaps the new manx project can do something? De From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 9 11:35:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:35:15 -0700 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <20110109171451.645C2A580D3 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > So on casual inspection, the main thing missing seems to be the /mirror > tree. I have a mirror of /mirror (!) from 2005 that might serve as a > stopgap. I've placed a tarball of it at: > > http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/vt100.net_mirror.tar > > File is just over 11 GB. I don't have an organized place to host this; > perhaps the new manx project can do something? I'll see what I can do to get this located on the new manx host. Given the size, I'll have to check with Jay first. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jan 9 11:48:24 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 10:48:24 -0700 Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B Message-ID: What's the difference? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 9 12:40:46 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 10:40:46 -0800 Subject: Single sided HDDs [was Re: HP drives] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E7ED50180C24F5A8F80A6246800051E@tegp4> > Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2011 20:13:16 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: HP drives > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > Alas they don't :-(. I've heard the term 'track' used for hard drives > > > when they meant 'cylinders'. ARGH!!! > > > -tony > > > > I thought you could only read/write to the top layer of the harddrive > > platter, or do some drives allow writing to both sides? > > Except for a ferw very odd ones (e.g. hard drives which record analagoue > singals such as analogue video [1]) every hard disk I've worked on has > used both sides of all platters for something. Maybe not user data > storage (for excample, it may contain servo information only), but there > will be a head on it. > -tony FWIW, there was a period about the turn of this century when most of Maxtor's production was a single disk drive with only one side used. In addition to saving the head assembly there were enuf other cost savings to make it worthwhile. One example is that it is relatively easy to load/unload a bottom head on the ID, thereby making the higher capacity OD real estate available. Tom From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 9 13:04:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 11:04:50 -0800 Subject: HP color samples on Vintage Computer forum Message-ID: <4D299652.21491.940B89@cclist.sydex.com> All: There's a posting over at Erik's VC Forum from someone with some vintage HP color samples, complete with documentation: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?23397 I don't know if they're of interest, but I figure that it's more likely that vintage HP folks are more likely to hang out here. FWIW, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 9 13:18:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:18:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Single sided HDDs [was Re: HP drives] In-Reply-To: <3E7ED50180C24F5A8F80A6246800051E@tegp4> from "Tom Gardner" at Jan 9, 11 10:40:46 am Message-ID: > FWIW, there was a period about the turn of this century when most of Far too modern for me to have seen, let alone worked on... :-) > Maxtor's production was a single disk drive with only one side used. In > addition to saving the head assembly there were enuf other cost savings to > make it worthwhile. One example is that it is relatively easy to > load/unload a bottom head on the ID, thereby making the higher capacity OD > real estate available. Did this drive lift the head off the platter on power-down (e.g, by using some kind of ramp)? The most modern drive I pulled apart, admittedly about 5 years older, landed the heads on the platter (as the older winchesters I've repaired did). If it lands the head(s) on the platter, I can't see any mechanical benefit to having only one head, even if it does use the inner cylinder as the landing area. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 9 12:32:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 18:32:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP-HIL (Human Interface Link) specification? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jan 8, 11 08:06:16 pm Message-ID: > > I found some links to articles in HP Journal: > > > > > > > > Woops, that first one is HP-IL, not HP-HIL. You;r not the first, and won't be last, to confuse thsoe 2 interfaces... I wouldlove to find some detailed infromation on the 2 ICs used for HP-HIL. I have pinouts, but little more. The 'master' IC occupies 4 locations (it has 2 address bit inputs) in the computer's address space, knowing waht all thsoe ports do would be interesting. The 'slave' IC seems to have a Microwire/SPI interface (it was normally, but no always, used with a COP400 series microcontroller), again knowing what you cna send/received over said interface would be interesting. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 9 12:48:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 18:48:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Talking of odd HP interfaces (PCIB) Message-ID: Has anyone come across, or more importantly does anyone have any technicla data on, an HP interface called PCIB (Personal Computer Instrument Bus, I think). It was used to link some simple-ish measuring insturments to a personal computer host (either an ISA sloted thing or an HP150). I've read the apporpriate HP journal and the manuals for the insturments nad host PCBs. I understnad it consisted of a high-ish speed parallel bus and a serial link on the same connector, the latter being opto-isolated at the instrument end. I would love to have a pinout of the interface conenctor, signal specifications, timing diagrams, etc. Does that exist anywhere? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 9 12:28:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 18:28:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Amiga 500/1000 bus expander project In-Reply-To: <9363E7D900D148E2B54D3EC047AE49B6@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 9, 11 00:59:03 am Message-ID: > > > It's a bit tougher when they're registered and can maintain (relatively) > > complex state, though. Many (most?) PALs are registered. > > I still think it is easier to look at the circuit, understanding how it > works and recreating the equations... I prefer to use all possible sources of information. So yes, in this case I might well try to work out the logic equations from the scheamtic and what functions are required. I would then test an existing PAL (if I had one) to see if that behaved in a way consistent with what I'd 'guessed'. > (ha ha ha, I have a logic analyser, I can do anything up to 400MHz, la > la la, I'm the greatest hacker of the world, la la la) :oD Good for you... -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jan 9 13:28:03 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 13:28:03 -0600 Subject: Controlling printer attached to VT220 Message-ID: I have a VT220 as the console terminal for my PDP-11/23+, running at 19200 baud. For the occasions when I want to print something, I have connected a KSR43 Teletype (300 baud) to the VT220 printer port. It works well, if slowly, after straightening out the usual RS232 control line issues. Is there a keyboard sequence to turn the printer on and off, without going into the VT Setup menu? (If I just turn off the TTY it hangs the VT220, presumably waiting for a RTS/CTS). I can't find the VT220 User's Guide online and the available Installation (and Technical) manuals don't seem to have any discussion. thanks Charles From paisley at erols.com Sun Jan 9 18:35:44 2011 From: paisley at erols.com (Todd Paisley) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:35:44 -0500 Subject: H960 rack wanted References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <390701cbb05e$52184dd0$020a0a0a@cj2a> I am looking for a DEC H960 rack in the US. Any condition. Todd Paisley From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 19:31:31 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:31:31 -0600 Subject: HP color samples on Vintage Computer forum In-Reply-To: <4D299652.21491.940B89@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D299652.21491.940B89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There's a posting over at Erik's VC Forum from someone with some > vintage HP color samples, complete with documentation: > > http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?23397 I once had a few dozen of these from the Bell System. They covered most of the colors of 70s and 80s telephones (Trimlines, Princess, 2500 sets, etc.) from Bell as well as some of the later colors offered by AT&T. They were all in thick silver envelopes stamped with expiration dates and warnings about keeping them out of the light. I guess they have the potential to discolor with time (as we know plastic will do) and would then no longer be useful as standards. Maybe not "useful" but a cool piece of history. I guess it could help someone repaint that old HP terminal! -- jht From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 9 19:36:57 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:36:57 -0600 Subject: FFS: DEC 3ph PSU Message-ID: Came out of an SA600 rack where it was probably feeding RA90s. Model # is 881A. Sent to you for the cost of shipping from 60074. Also have the companion UPS for it, which is of course really heavy. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jan 9 21:06:40 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2011 19:06:40 -0800 Subject: H960 rack wanted In-Reply-To: <390701cbb05e$52184dd0$020a0a0a@cj2a> References: <9d257d73e6a6b4eb170eca1e253112a8.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <390701cbb05e$52184dd0$020a0a0a@cj2a> Message-ID: <4D2A77C0.3040304@brouhaha.com> Todd Paisley wrote: > I am looking for a DEC H960 rack in the US. Any condition. If you're serious about "any condition", I've got two that you can have free. They were in a fire, so you might want to sand and repaint them. Pick up on the San Francisco peninsula, or make arrangements for shipping. If you don't want those, I have some others that weren't in a fire, that I'd be willing to sell or trade. If you want side panels or the plastic things that go between adjacent racks when you bolt them together, I can sell or trade some of those too. All of the racks, fire or not, tend to have bad casters, and may have broken or missing levellers. Eric From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 10 02:48:51 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:48:51 +0100 Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2AC7F3.8010407@update.uu.se> 2011-01-09 18:48, Richard skrev: > What's the difference? > I'm not sure about the 240. But the 220 comes in two revisions and the difference was on the power circuit board. On one revision you could replace the flyback, on the other version you had to replace the whole circuit board (with flyback). This was described in the pocket service guide I got from vt100.net Regards, Pontus. From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 10 02:46:50 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:46:50 +0100 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> 2011-01-09 18:14, Dennis Boone skrev: > > So on casual inspection, the main thing missing seems to be the /mirror > tree. I have a mirror of /mirror (!) from 2005 that might serve as a > stopgap. I've placed a tarball of it at: > > http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/vt100.net_mirror.tar > > File is just over 11 GB. I don't have an organized place to host this; > perhaps the new manx project can do something? > > De Great! At least something is out there :) I have begun downloading this (for my own use). It will take about 2-3 days. Is there a chance you could gzip it as well? Or perhaps the contents is already compressed? Regards, Pontus. From drb at msu.edu Mon Jan 10 03:58:54 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 04:58:54 -0500 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:46:50 +0100.) <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> References: <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20110110095854.4A971A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I have begun downloading this (for my own use). It will take about 2-3 > days. Is there a chance you could gzip it as well? Or perhaps the > contents is already compressed? Hmmm, I suppose I should have thought of that earlier, but I just tried it and as it turns out, gzipping it saves almost nothing anyway. I looked at throughput (400 kb/s, pretty slow) and examined the path. Looks like Global Crossing is having a bad day (130ms round trip time at one point about 9 hops from me). Hopefully they'll get that sorted out and your rate will rise. De From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 10 04:55:48 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:55:48 +0100 Subject: Talking of odd HP interfaces (PCIB) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002801cbb0b4$f3a1a510$dae4ef30$@xs4all.nl> Tony, At the hp computer museum you can find several documents regarding the PC Instruments. http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=972 -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zondag 9 januari 2011 19:49 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Talking of odd HP interfaces (PCIB) Has anyone come across, or more importantly does anyone have any technicla data on, an HP interface called PCIB (Personal Computer Instrument Bus, I think). It was used to link some simple-ish measuring insturments to a personal computer host (either an ISA sloted thing or an HP150). I've read the apporpriate HP journal and the manuals for the insturments nad host PCBs. I understnad it consisted of a high-ish speed parallel bus and a serial link on the same connector, the latter being opto-isolated at the instrument end. I would love to have a pinout of the interface conenctor, signal specifications, timing diagrams, etc. Does that exist anywhere? -tony From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 10 09:06:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 08:06:55 -0700 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: In article <4D2AC77A.90506 at update.uu.se>, Pontus writes: > I have begun downloading this (for my own use). It will take about 2-3 > days. Is there a chance you could gzip it as well? Or perhaps the > contents is already compressed? Usually compressing PDF files doesn't gain much. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 10 09:48:05 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 13:48:05 -0200 Subject: HP MX-80 emulation cartridge References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se><20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu><4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Dear sirs, Lots of people asks me everyday - Is it possible to print graphics on MSX? Yes, it is, but needs MX-80 emulation. There was a MX-80 cartridge for the Deskjet 500 (and later). But this cartridge is unobitanium in Brazil. Maybe some of you has a cartridge and could read the ROM memory (and if possible, trace the schematic - there are fewer than 30 connections on it) for me? :) Thanks a lot :) --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Jan 10 10:21:24 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 17:21:24 +0100 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4D2AC77A.90506@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <20110110162124.GA22413@angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 09:46:50AM +0100, Pontus wrote: > 2011-01-09 18:14, Dennis Boone skrev: >> >> So on casual inspection, the main thing missing seems to be the /mirror >> tree. I have a mirror of /mirror (!) from 2005 that might serve as a >> stopgap. I've placed a tarball of it at: >> >> http://yagi.h-net.msu.edu/vt100.net_mirror.tar >> >> File is just over 11 GB. I don't have an organized place to host this; >> perhaps the new manx project can do something? >> >> De > > Great! At least something is out there :) > > I have begun downloading this (for my own use). It will take about 2-3 > days. Is there a chance you could gzip it as well? Or perhaps the > contents is already compressed? The content is not all that compressible, I ran it through a few: - original: 11094 MB - bzip2 -9: 10608 MB - gzip -9 : 10655 MB - lzo -9 : 10775 MB - lzma -9 : 10534 MB So at best you can shave off half a gigabyte by feeding the tar through compression. You can grab the files from my machine as well: http://www.yog-sothoth.ch/tmp/vt100.net_mirror.tar.lzma http://www.yog-sothoth.ch/tmp/vt100.net_mirror.tar It sits on a reasonably fast pipe. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 10 11:23:21 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 09:23:21 -0800 Subject: Talking of odd HP interfaces (PCIB) In-Reply-To: <002801cbb0b4$f3a1a510$dae4ef30$@xs4all.nl> References: <002801cbb0b4$f3a1a510$dae4ef30$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4D2B4089.5050705@bitsavers.org> On 1/10/11 2:55 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > At the hp computer museum you can find several documents regarding the PC > Instruments. > It is a shame they orphaned these devices. I have a box of various PCIB instruments, and discovered when I tried to do something with them that the PC interface and software is unobtainium. I think I mentioned a couple of years ago how the PC interfaced instruments are just a bad idea from a preservation standpoint. Take the Biomation CLAS logic analyzer. Really nice device for the time, had a SCSI interface to the host for user interface, but the only supported computer was the Macintosh II. They never released the communications protocol information. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 10 12:06:56 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:06:56 -0800 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds enhanced In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> On 1/8/11 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: > I've enhanced the bitsavers RSS feeds to provide links to the > individual folders and not just the files. Thanks for taking care of these feeds, Richard. Isn't the first line redundant? Osborne :: Executive :: floppy images :: Executive Double-sided :: labels.txt ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ is the same as clicking on just labels.txt on the next line ---------- Osborne :: Executive :: floppy images :: Executive Double-sided :: labels.txt ------- --------- ------------- ---------------------- ---------- From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 10 12:25:53 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:25:53 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds enhanced In-Reply-To: <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D2B4AC0.8050101 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > On 1/8/11 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: > > I've enhanced the bitsavers RSS feeds to provide links to the > > individual folders and not just the files. > > Thanks for taking care of these feeds, Richard. > > Isn't the first line redundant? Technically yes. > Osborne :: Executive :: floppy images :: Executive Double-sided :: labels.tx t > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > is the same as clicking on just labels.txt on the next line > ---------- > > Osborne :: Executive :: floppy images :: Executive Double-sided :: labels.tx t > ------- --------- ------------- ---------------------- --------- - In an RSS feed, each item has what's called the "permalink", intended to be a permanent URL linking to the content. I've linked to the file as the permalink. Each item can also have an "enclosure". For instance, if it were a podcast, the permalink would be to the web page summarizing the podcast and the audio podcast itself would be the enclosure. The item description would be either the same summary as on the web page, or perhaps an even more condensed version created just for the feed. (The web page at the permalink might contain an entire transcript of the podcast, but the RSS feed just a summary.) Since we don't have much information for the bitsavers RSS feed other than what's in the "what's new" file, the permalink, enclosure and description have some redundancy between them. What I did was add new links in the description so that you could navigate directly to the folder containing the item. I did this because it was something that I often wanted to do while browsing the feed. Say a new Tek 4051 ROM listing comes out; I often want to browse to the folder containing all the other ROM listings. Sometimes the WhatsNew.txt file contains a brief one-line description of the content. When that is present, I fold it into the item description along with the new folder links. For PDF files, I'm considering generating an image of the first two pages of the PDF and including a link to that image with a thumbnail in the description. However, this means I'll have to store the thumbnails and generated images on my web space and I'm not really sure I want to do that considering the number of PDFs on bitsavers. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 10 12:41:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:41:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Talking of odd HP interfaces (PCIB) In-Reply-To: <002801cbb0b4$f3a1a510$dae4ef30$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 10, 11 11:55:48 am Message-ID: > > Tony, > > At the hp computer museum you can find several documents regarding the PC > Instruments. > http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?hwdoc=972 Yes, I've read all of them. Not one contains a bus pinout, timing diagram, schematic, or any similar techncial information :-( I was hoping there was some more detailed information out there. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 10 12:57:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:57:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Talking of odd HP interfaces (PCIB) In-Reply-To: <4D2B4089.5050705@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jan 10, 11 09:23:21 am Message-ID: > > On 1/10/11 2:55 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > > At the hp computer museum you can find several documents regarding the PC > > Instruments. > > > > It is a shame they orphaned these devices. I have a box of various > PCIB instruments, and discovered > when I tried to do something with them that the PC interface and > software is unobtainium. I think you can now get the softwate from the Australian museum site that Rik mentioned. Of course this is no use at all ithout the interface I've seen at least one HP150 PCIB interface on E-bay. Of ocurse this is no use unless you have an HP150. From the photos of the PCB thatI've seen, the interface contained a number of TTL drvies (amybe some PALs, I couldn't read the numbers), a 40 pin microcontroller, and an HP 48 pin ASIC linked ot the interface connector (this was mentioned in the HP Journal article I read). So not easy to figure out. And OI've not seen any of the insturments for sale at a sane price. I any case youd need several to figure ito ut, the simpler/slower ones only used the serial part of the PCIB, which is not a lot of help. > > I think I mentioned a couple of years ago how the PC interfaced > instruments are just a bad idea You don;t need ot convince me of that ;-) > from a preservation standpoint. Take the Biomation CLAS logic > analyzer. Really nice device for > the time, had a SCSI interface to the host for user interface, but the > only supported computer > was the Macintosh II. They never released the communications protocol > information. And yet people tell me how wonderful the USB-inerfaced 'scopes', logic analusers and evne multimeters are. Every one I've looked at comes with vinary-only softare for the currnet version of Windows. There may be a documetned API to write your own high-level prgrams, but I've yet to see one where the low-level protocol is documented. Which means I would be stuck with a particular closed-source OS running on uncoducmented hardawre. NO THANKS! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 10 12:39:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 18:39:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B In-Reply-To: <4D2AC7F3.8010407@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Jan 10, 11 09:48:51 am Message-ID: > > 2011-01-09 18:48, Richard skrev: > > What's the difference? > > > > I'm not sure about the 240. But the 220 comes in two revisions and the > difference was on the power circuit board. On one revision you could > replace the flyback, on the other version you had to replace the whole > circuit board (with flyback). This was described in the pocket service > guide I got from vt100.net I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the flyback transformer.... In any case, that can't be the difference with the 2 models of VT240. That terminal doens't have a built-in CRT. It uses either a VR201 (monochrome) or VR241 (colour) monitor, which is a separate unit. Sometimes DEC suffix letters indicate the mains voltage the unit was designed for (some PSUs came in seaprate 115V or 230V models). But I thought all VT240s werr switchable. There is an internal option connecotr, I believe for a modem PCB. Perhaps the differenec is that one ahs the modem fitted as standard. -tony From drb at msu.edu Mon Jan 10 13:11:38 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:11:38 -0500 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds enhanced In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 10 Jan 2011 10:06:56 PST.) <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20110110191138.F070DA580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> On 1/8/11 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: > I've enhanced the bitsavers RSS feeds to provide links to the > individual folders and not just the files. These are nice. It'd be helpful if the feed titles included "pdf" or "bits". De From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 10 13:21:59 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:21:59 -0800 Subject: Single sided HDDs [was Re: HP drives] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2011 19:18:46 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Single sided HDDs [was Re: HP drives] > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > FWIW, there was a period about the turn of this century when most of > > Far too modern for me to have seen, let alone worked on... :-) > > > Maxtor's production was a single disk drive with only one side used. In > > addition to saving the head assembly there were enuf other cost savings > > make it worthwhile. One example is that it is relatively easy to > > load/unload a bottom head on the ID, thereby making the higher capacity > > OD real estate available. > > Did this drive lift the head off the platter on power-down (e.g, by using > some kind of ramp)? The most modern drive I pulled apart, admittedly > about 5 years older, landed the heads on the platter (as the older > winchesters I've repaired did). If it lands the head(s) on the platter, I > can't see any mechanical benefit to having only one head, even if it does > use the inner cylinder as the landing area. > > -tony I never saw the drives but I was told they had a head lifting ramp mechanism on the baseplate at the ID. Makes for a very simple mechanism compared to other head lifters. Tom From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Mon Jan 10 13:35:13 2011 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 11:35:13 -0800 Subject: Monroe and Northstar on EBay... Message-ID: There are two older systems currently listed on Ebay, both with low bids (for now). The first is apparently a Northstar Advantage (item #320639197081, currently at $15), and the second is a Monroe OC8820 (item #170589045980, currently at $59). The Northstar has 2 bids, the Monroe none. The Monroe was listed earlier at a price of $99. It got zero bids and the seller relisted it. I tried to find some info about the Monroe (even though my significant other would have a cow if another computer showed up at the house) and all I could find were references to people having fits trying to create the properly-formatted floppies for it. Anyone know anything about the Monroe? I thought I'd point these two machines out on the list in case anyone was interested in them. Mark Davidson mdavidson1963 at gmail.com From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 10 14:09:40 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 21:09:40 +0100 Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> 2011-01-10 19:39, Tony Duell skrev: > I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the > flyback transformer.... With glue perhaps? What I should have said was that in one revision the flyback was connected with a plug and a designated FRU (Field Replacable Unit) by digital and in the other case the whole circuit board with a soldered on flyback was an FRU, not the flyback itself. - Pontus. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 10 14:23:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 20:23:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B In-Reply-To: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Jan 10, 11 09:09:40 pm Message-ID: > > 2011-01-10 19:39, Tony Duell skrev: > > I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the > > flyback transformer.... > > With glue perhaps? What I should have said was that in one revision the Maybe... Althought most glued joints can be separated, particularly if you don't care what happens to one part (in this case the defective flyback transformer) :-) > flyback was connected with a plug and a designated FRU (Field Replacable > Unit) by digital and in the other case the whole circuit board with a > soldered on flyback was an FRU, not the flyback itself. Ah yes... For some odd reason field servoids can't use soldering irons... -tony From andy at flirble.org Mon Jan 10 14:33:25 2011 From: andy at flirble.org (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 20:33:25 +0000 Subject: Event with BBC Micro & Domesday speakers. Message-ID: <20110110203325.GC3682@plum.flirble.org> An event in London on Thursday 10th February that may be of interest, that has ex-BBC speakers that were involved with the creation of the BBC Micro and the BBC Domesday project: http://oshug.org/event/7 Regards, Andrew From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 10 14:35:48 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 12:35:48 -0800 Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B In-Reply-To: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> References: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: At 9:09 PM +0100 1/10/11, Pontus wrote: >2011-01-10 19:39, Tony Duell skrev: >>I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the >>flyback transformer.... > >With glue perhaps? What I should have said was that in one revision >the flyback was connected with a plug and a designated FRU (Field >Replacable Unit) by digital and in the other case the whole circuit >board with a soldered on flyback was an FRU, not the flyback itself. > > - Pontus. Suddenly I'm reminded of the horrid stock Commodore power bricks where the whole brick is epoxy. I went to a lot of effort to dig up a good 3rd party brick for my C-64 that can be easily worked on. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 10 16:01:35 2011 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:01:35 +0100 Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: References: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> 2011-01-10 21:35, Zane H. Healy skrev: > At 9:09 PM +0100 1/10/11, Pontus wrote: >> 2011-01-10 19:39, Tony Duell skrev: >>> I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the >>> flyback transformer.... >> >> With glue perhaps? What I should have said was that in one revision >> the flyback was connected with a plug and a designated FRU (Field >> Replacable Unit) by digital and in the other case the whole circuit >> board with a soldered on flyback was an FRU, not the flyback itself. >> >> - Pontus. > > Suddenly I'm reminded of the horrid stock Commodore power bricks where > the whole brick is epoxy. I went to a lot of effort to dig up a good > 3rd party brick for my C-64 that can be easily worked on. > > Zane > > Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem to recall that the C64 brick broke easily, perhaps Commodore got a lot of complaints from service shops. - Pontus. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 10 16:20:25 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 14:20:25 -0800 Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> References: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: At 11:01 PM +0100 1/10/11, Pontus wrote: >2011-01-10 21:35, Zane H. Healy skrev: >>Suddenly I'm reminded of the horrid stock Commodore power bricks >>where the whole brick is epoxy. I went to a lot of effort to dig >>up a good 3rd party brick for my C-64 that can be easily worked on. >> >>Zane > >Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem >to recall that the C64 brick broke easily, perhaps Commodore got a >lot of complaints from service shops. > > - Pontus. IIRC the epoxy made them prone to overheating, plus they were so underpowered that you couldn't upgrade a C-64 much without overtaxing the PS. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Mon Jan 10 16:23:38 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 16:23:38 -0600 (CST) Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Pontus wrote: > 2011-01-10 21:35, Zane H. Healy skrev: > > At 9:09 PM +0100 1/10/11, Pontus wrote: > >> 2011-01-10 19:39, Tony Duell skrev: > >>> I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the > >>> flyback transformer.... > >> > >> With glue perhaps? What I should have said was that in one revision > >> the flyback was connected with a plug and a designated FRU (Field > >> Replacable Unit) by digital and in the other case the whole circuit > >> board with a soldered on flyback was an FRU, not the flyback itself. > >> > >> - Pontus. > > > > Suddenly I'm reminded of the horrid stock Commodore power bricks where > > the whole brick is epoxy. I went to a lot of effort to dig up a good > > 3rd party brick for my C-64 that can be easily worked on. > > > > Zane > > > > > > Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem to > recall that the C64 brick broke easily, perhaps Commodore got a lot of > complaints from service shops. Epoxy transmits heat reasonably well (better than, say, air), so the theory was the heat produced by the electronics in the PSU would be transmitted to the casing which would radiate the heat and keep the unit from cooking. My understanding is due to poor design the epoxy would frequently separate from the inside of the casing, causing a gap that stopped the heat from escaping as designed, ending in heat death for the PSU. Given the amount of supplies they replaced, by the time the C64C rolled along, Commodore had replaced the original bricks design with a better one. As I understand it :) - JP From bryan.pope at comcast.net Mon Jan 10 18:51:48 2011 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 19:51:48 -0500 Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> References: <4D2B6784.3060005@update.uu.se> <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4D2BA9A4.4010409@comcast.net> On 1/10/2011 5:01 PM, Pontus wrote: > 2011-01-10 21:35, Zane H. Healy skrev: >> At 9:09 PM +0100 1/10/11, Pontus wrote: >>> 2011-01-10 19:39, Tony Duell skrev: >>>> I am wondering just how youy make a PCB where you can't replace the >>>> flyback transformer.... >>> >>> With glue perhaps? What I should have said was that in one revision >>> the flyback was connected with a plug and a designated FRU (Field >>> Replacable Unit) by digital and in the other case the whole circuit >>> board with a soldered on flyback was an FRU, not the flyback itself. >>> >>> - Pontus. >> >> Suddenly I'm reminded of the horrid stock Commodore power bricks >> where the whole brick is epoxy. I went to a lot of effort to dig up >> a good 3rd party brick for my C-64 that can be easily worked on. >> >> Zane >> >> > > Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem to > recall that the C64 brick broke easily, perhaps Commodore got a lot of > complaints from service shops. > As a side note, you can replace (or splice in) the C128 square power connector with a C64 round connector on a C128 power supply to allow you to use a SuperCPU, RAM expansion, etc.. Cheers, Bryan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 10 18:58:24 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 00:58:24 +0000 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D2BAB30.8030505@philpem.me.uk> On 09/01/11 17:35, Richard wrote: > I'll see what I can do to get this located on the new manx host. > Given the size, I'll have to check with Jay first. I'd be happy to host it -- there's plenty of free space on Daedalus's RAID array. BTW, is anyone still using the Manx-dev mailing list? The last message I received from it was from the back end of November last year. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Jan 10 21:21:58 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 21:21:58 -0600 Subject: Help with DHV11/16 card? Message-ID: Being stuck indoors by bad weather, I started tinkering with my PDP-11/23+ system :) The 11/23+ chassis came with a sixteen-serial-line (Camintonn DHV11/16) card which is complete with a rack panel of 16 DE-9 serial ports, and fortunately the scrappers had not cut the ribbon cable going to it. Also, somewhere I acquired an RL02 pack with TSX-Plus 5.0, which boots to RT11SJ and even runs TSX+, although I don't have all the devices the original system had. So I would like to set up the system for timesharing using the 16-line card. After perusing the TSX+ manuals I believe I can accomplish a system generation, except for one problem - I don't know the interrupt vector and CSR addresses for the Camintonn DHV11/16. Nothing on Google I could find, and on Bitsavers there is a DEC DHV11 manual but that's an eight-line card... can anyone help with tech info on this 16-line card? thanks Charles (doesn't really need a multi-user system since I'm the only user) :) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 10 23:52:51 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:52:51 -0700 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds enhanced In-Reply-To: <20110110191138.F070DA580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> <20110110191138.F070DA580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <20110110191138.F070DA580D3 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>, Dennis Boone writes: > On 1/8/11 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: > > I've enhanced the bitsavers RSS feeds to provide links to the > > individual folders and not just the files. > > These are nice. It'd be helpful if the feed titles included "pdf" or > "bits". done. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 10 23:55:28 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:55:28 -0700 Subject: the new manx is live In-Reply-To: <4D2BAB30.8030505@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D29C3B8.6050005@update.uu.se> <20110109171451.645C2A580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <4D2BAB30.8030505@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4D2BAB30.8030505 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > On 09/01/11 17:35, Richard wrote: > > I'll see what I can do to get this located on the new manx host. > > Given the size, I'll have to check with Jay first. > > I'd be happy to host it -- there's plenty of free space on Daedalus's > RAID array. Let's see what Jay says first. Its easier to keep everything in one place. > BTW, is anyone still using the Manx-dev mailing list? The last message I > received from it was from the back end of November last year. I hate to say it, but the problem with the "manx dev" project is that noone else contributed a single line of code. I ended up doing it all. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tingox at gmail.com Mon Jan 10 16:32:35 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2011 23:32:35 +0100 Subject: bitsavers RSS feeds enhanced In-Reply-To: <20110110191138.F070DA580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4D2B4AC0.8050101@bitsavers.org> <20110110191138.F070DA580D3@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: Hi, On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 8:11 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > On 1/8/11 6:34 PM, Richard wrote: >> I've enhanced the bitsavers RSS feeds to provide links to the >> individual folders and not just the files. > > These are nice. ?It'd be helpful if the feed titles included "pdf" or > "bits". Perhaps your rss reader allows you to rename the feeds? Works for me (Google Reader). YMMV. -- Torfinn Ingolfsen From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 11 02:31:15 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 08:31:15 +0000 Subject: Help with DHV11/16 card? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2C1553.8090609@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/01/2011 03:21, Charles Morris wrote: > The 11/23+ chassis came with a sixteen-serial-line (Camintonn > DHV11/16) card which is complete with a rack panel of 16 DE-9 serial > ports, and fortunately the scrappers had not cut the ribbon cable > going to it. > So I would like to set up the system for timesharing using the 16-line > card. After perusing the TSX+ manuals I believe I can accomplish a > system generation, except for one problem - I don't know the interrupt > vector and CSR addresses for the Camintonn DHV11/16. Presumably your 11/23+ has a quad-high M8189 KDF11-B CPU, with on-board serial lines, in which case you can assume the console is on that card, not the DHV11 (DEC DHV11s are just serial multiplexers and don't provide a console line, but a few third-party equivalents do). If this is the same as the card I have in one of mine, perhaps it's set up similarly, as if it were the first multiplexer. I don't have a manual, but mine is set up thus: Camintonn CMDHV11: W5 made A12 etc: first 8 closed, remaining 3 open V8 etc: V8 closed, next 2 open, next 2 closed, remaining 6 open 4 molex links by each O/P, all made towards B edge Unfortunately I didn't write down what address/vector that corresponds to, and I can't get at the 11/83 it's in right now. It's probably on the first usable floating address, 17760020, and the first available vector. If that doesn't help, you could at least find out what address it's set to by running a (fairly) little toggle-in program to find all the I/O addresses in use in the machine. Look at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ODT/Listings/FindCSR for example. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jan 11 13:12:25 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 19:12:25 -0000 Subject: Looking for the DECnet Kit For MicroVMS Message-ID: <003e01cbb1c3$836207d0$8a261770$@ntlworld.com> I want to install DECnet on my MicroVAX II running MicroVMS 4.6. I know that I can do this by copying the relevant files from a full-fat version of the VMS 4.6 install tape (which I have). The thing is that I would like to do it "properly" if at all possible by using the actual optional DECnet product for MicroVMS. Does anyone have this? Thanks Rob From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jan 11 13:49:43 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 11:49:43 -0800 Subject: Copy II PC Ver 6 on modern hardware Message-ID: <4D2CB457.30300@bitsavers.org> Does anyone know around what CPU speed CII PC stops working at? It falls over not being able to calibrate to CPU speed on a 800MHz Athlon From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 11 14:18:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:18:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT240A vs. VT240B In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jan 10, 11 12:35:48 pm Message-ID: > Suddenly I'm reminded of the horrid stock Commodore power bricks > where the whole brick is epoxy. I went to a lot of effort to dig up Ah yes, I've dismantled epoxy-potted modules before now. Painful idea. I hope there's a special place in hell reserved for the manufcaturers of such things :-) > a good 3rd party brick for my C-64 that can be easily worked on. I cna't rememebr what the C64 requires (+5V DC and unregualted 9V AC?) but I think I would have designed and made my own replacement. And built it in a propper, earthed, metal case with fuses on both sides of the transformer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 11 14:21:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:21:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: <4D2B81BF.9090603@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Jan 10, 11 11:01:35 pm Message-ID: > Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem to Well, they did hide the case screws under little plastic caps, but that is a minor problem... There were no schematics for the PSUs in the appropriate service manuals either, which was also a minor problem. The C128 brick is very simple (IIRC, it's a mains transodffmer and a switching regulator on the secodnary side of this to give the +5V), the Amiga brick is a normal SMPSU of a fairly standard design. Needless to say Iv'e been inside both over the years... -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Jan 11 17:10:17 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:10:17 +1300 Subject: Lisa 2. Fully operational References: Message-ID: Hi, The Lisa 2 is now fully operational. In the end I took the easy way out and simply ordered replacement keyboard pads from Erik. I'm going to have to make them eventually though, because I've still got the Lisa 2/10 (and its keyboard) to go. I usually write these projects up when I'm finished. They are not detailed technical articles but rather narratives on what I did for those interested. If anyone wants to have a look, the article is at the URL below. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm Thanks to the people that helped with this. The local guy who owns a Lisa 2/10 hasn't yet got it out of storage yet so there has been no progress on that front at this time. Terry (Tez) From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jan 11 19:15:02 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:15:02 -0500 Subject: Lisa 2. Fully operational In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2D0096.1020109@atarimuseum.com> This battlestation is fully operational !!! and it looks like a Lisa 2 ;-) terry stewart wrote: > Hi, > > The Lisa 2 is now fully operational. In the end I took the easy way > out and simply ordered replacement keyboard pads from Erik. I'm going > to have to make them eventually though, because I've still got the > Lisa 2/10 (and its keyboard) to go. > > I usually write these projects up when I'm finished. They are not > detailed technical articles but rather narratives on what I did for > those interested. If anyone wants to have a look, the article is at > the URL below. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm > > Thanks to the people that helped with this. The local guy who owns a > Lisa 2/10 hasn't yet got it out of storage yet so there has been no > progress on that front at this time. > > Terry (Tez) > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Jan 11 20:50:47 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 20:50:47 -0600 Subject: Progress, DHV11/16D card Message-ID: <845qi69vn0700tae9lbvhpvvj3la9rle7a@4ax.com> Thanks to Pete Turnbull's FindCSR (entering it once by hand was enough) :) and reading another manufacturer's DHV11/16 documentation dug up on Bitsavers, I now know my CSR. Actually, two of them, 160140 and 160160, since I have learned that a DHV11/16 appears to the 11/23+ as two DHV11 8-line cards with consecutive address spaces modulo 20 octal. Then I could run the various DHV11 diagnostics from my XXDP pack, and the first time through on VDHAE0, it found the card but stopped on an ILL INT 430 error. So I took the hint and entered 430 instead of the default 300 for the vector interrupt address. Then Unit 1 passed the tests, but Unit 2 had an ILL INT 440 error. Another clue :) With 440 for the 2nd vector it passed all tests. Now to make sure it's not conflicting with my RLV12 controller, make a cable for the user terminal, and start fumbling with TSGEN.MAC and other TSX-Plus files! All I need is a few VT100's and this will be 100% identical to the system I used at my first EE job (in 1981) :) -Charles From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 11 21:28:38 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 03:28:38 +0000 Subject: Progress, DHV11/16D card In-Reply-To: <845qi69vn0700tae9lbvhpvvj3la9rle7a@4ax.com> References: <845qi69vn0700tae9lbvhpvvj3la9rle7a@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4D2D1FE6.9000204@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/01/2011 02:50, Charles Morris wrote: > Thanks to Pete Turnbull's FindCSR (entering it once by hand was > enough) Yes, that I believe! > and reading another manufacturer's DHV11/16 documentation > dug up on Bitsavers, I now know my CSR. Well done! > Actually, two of them, 160140 and 160160, since I have learned that a > DHV11/16 appears to the 11/23+ as two DHV11 8-line cards with > consecutive address spaces modulo 20 octal. Actually, I should have remembered that myself :-( > Then I could run the various DHV11 diagnostics from my XXDP pack, and > the first time through on VDHAE0, it found the card but stopped on an > ILL INT 430 error. So I took the hint and entered 430 instead of the > default 300 for the vector interrupt address. Then Unit 1 passed the > tests, but Unit 2 had an ILL INT 440 error. Another clue :) With 440 > for the 2nd vector it passed all tests. Unusual vectors. BTW, if you ever need to find out what vector something is using, and can make it interrupt, you can set up a "trap catcher". This is also used to identify what device is causing interrupts or traps if you're getting rogue ones. Basically you fill the vector space (or floating vector space) with pairs of words, where the first word for each vector is the address of the next word, and the next word contains a zero. This has the effect that, when the CPU uses the vector, it sets the program counter to the address indicated by the forst word in the vector, and then executes the code there -- and as zero is a HALT instruction, that's what it does. And if it's using console ODT, it also prints out the address it halted at, so you can identify the vector it used. To use the trap catcher, set up the vectors, set up a short loop somewhere else in memory (1000 is a common place), set the CPU executing the loop, and wait for an interrupt. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 11 21:48:14 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2011 22:48:14 -0500 Subject: Progress, DHV11/16D card In-Reply-To: <845qi69vn0700tae9lbvhpvvj3la9rle7a@4ax.com> References: <845qi69vn0700tae9lbvhpvvj3la9rle7a@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4D2D247E.9010103@compsys.to> >Charles Morris wrote: >Thanks to Pete Turnbull's FindCSR (entering it once by hand was >enough) :) and reading another manufacturer's DHV11/16 documentation >dug up on Bitsavers, I now know my CSR. > >Actually, two of them, 160140 and 160160, since I have learned that a >DHV11/16 appears to the 11/23+ as two DHV11 8-line cards with >consecutive address spaces modulo 20 octal. > >Then I could run the various DHV11 diagnostics from my XXDP pack, and >the first time through on VDHAE0, it found the card but stopped on an >ILL INT 430 error. So I took the hint and entered 430 instead of the >default 300 for the vector interrupt address. Then Unit 1 passed the >tests, but Unit 2 had an ILL INT 440 error. Another clue :) With 440 >for the 2nd vector it passed all tests. > >Now to make sure it's not conflicting with my RLV12 controller, make a >cable for the user terminal, and start fumbling with TSGEN.MAC and >other TSX-Plus files! > >All I need is a few VT100's and this will be 100% identical to the >system I used at my first EE job (in 1981) :) > As a software addict, I can appreciate your wish to have the identical hardware that you used back in 1981, especially when it probably cost over $ 20K. I doubt that you will have a conflict with the RL02 controller. The standards are: CSR = 174400 VECTOR = 160 I also used a bit of TSX-Plus over the years. V6.50 is available to hobby users and is Y2K compliant. The RT-11 files from V05.07 which are Y2K compliant may be a bit more difficult to find. If you want to run with V05.03 of RT-11 files under SIMH, you can legally acquire and use the RT-11 V04.00 binary distribution. V05.03 of RT-11 is also legally allowed to be used with SIMH. However, since V05.03 was released in 1985, you will probably want to stay with V04.00 files from 1980. If you ever find that you are cramped for space with 17 VT100 terminals on your desk, you can always switch to running under Ersatz-11. While it will only easily support 12 VT100 terminals (you switch from one VT100 to the next with ), it does run about 200 times as fast as a PDP-11/23 on a core 2 duo of around 3.0 GHz, especially if you have the 6 MB L2 cache version. And since 1 TB SATA2 drives are now less than $ 100, you also find there is almost unlimited storage. Right now I am working on enhancing a program that runs under RT-11, TSX-Plus, RSTS/E and RTEM-11. Ersatz-11 makes the debugging and production much easier. I support RT-11 (and sometimes TSX-Plus) systems for hobby users, so if you have some questions, please ask. Jerome Fine From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 11 23:32:10 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 00:32:10 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 1 Message-ID: <082801cbb21a$0f9507b0$2ebf1710$@sudbrink@verizon.net> _Teletype_Tales_ Warning, this is rather long and in three parts. If you are not interested in TTYs, just skip this and the next two emails. Part 1 - Ancient History My very first interaction with a computer, in 1976, was via an ASR33 teletype. I continued to frequently use ASR33s for the next several years. A good friend of mine actually owned one. Consequently, I have a definite nostalgia for them and wanted to add one to my collection for a long time. I finally acquired one in December of 2001. Actually, I got two model 33 teletypes, an ASR and a KSR. They came from a HAM radio operator. The ASR is on a floor stand and the KSR is a tabletop unit. The ASR had been well used. It was dirty, inside and out, full of dog hair, bug bits and even some broken light bulb glass. There was "goop" all over that I took to be coagulated lubricant but it turned out to be degraded foam rubber (but that part of the story comes later). The cover was yellowed with some cracks here and there. The KSR wasn't much better even though it had been stored in a box. As a matter of fact, it was worse because it had been moved around in the box but the shipping screws were not in place. This allowed the typing unit which is "free floating" to shift around and smash the plastic cover to bits. When I got them home, I immediately put the KSR away for "another day" under the assumption that it was badly damaged. I tried to carefully clean as much of the crud out of the ASR as I could without actually taking anything apart other than taking the cover off. I should point out here that, while I'm not bothered by the complexity of electronic circuits, I find mechanical complexity (lots of levers, gears, cogs and the like) a bit intimidating. After the cleaning, I hand turned the motor a few revolutions. It turned freely, so I went ahead and plugged it in and switched it on to local. The motor hummed nicely, there was no grinding or other bad noises. The hammer pad had been replaced with a plastic faucet washer, held in place with shrink tube. It seemed secure, so I slid some paper in and pressed a few keys. It was clearly trying to do something but it was definitely not right. The hammer was striking the type cylinder but the carriage was not moving. Moving the paper around, you could see that sometimes the struck character corresponded to the pressed key, sometimes not. I asked for help on both cctalk and greenkeys (I really wanted to try to get someone to come "on site" and work on it with me) but didn't get anything very useful. Sadly, I put the ASR away for "another day". End of part 1. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 11 23:33:49 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 00:33:49 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 2 Message-ID: <082901cbb21a$4a6ea490$df4bedb0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> _Teletype_Tales_ Part 2 - Waiting For Another Day For ten years (Really? Ten? Well, more than nine.) the two teletypes have sat in a corner of my basement. From time to time, I made requests (public and private) for help, but nothing I could offer (mostly unlimited pizza and beer) could entice anyone knowledgeable to come give me a hand. That's not to say that no progress was made however. Most of the progress came in the form of further acquisitions. The first was a nice shiny chad bin. There was a chad bin with the ASR when I got it, but the plastic had degraded to an opaque milky yellow and the "lip" that is supposed to hold it in place had broken off and been lost. When I got the ASR, the bin was being held in place with masking tape. The "new" bin is whole and crystal clear. It has just the slightest golden tint to betray its age. I also went to work getting original prints of all of the model 33 documentation. I got them in bits and pieces over the years, some bought, some gifts, a single section here, a collection there. I'm now confident that I have a complete set, in fact, I think I've ended up with two complete sets and three copies of a few of the sections. The best part came on Father's Day of 2002. A greenkeyer pointed me to a shop that had some "new old stock" model 33 parts. The prices weren't too bad and my wife agreed to let me get what they had as my Father's Day present. They didn't have any KSR covers, but they had a complete ASR cover, brand new, punch, reader, top cover, front metal nameplate and mode select knob. Pictures here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/teletype/ The P53* pictures are before installation, the P10* pictures are installed. There are also pictures of my recent work, described in part 3. I unscrewed the reader and punch covers from the old cover and put that on the KSR. Better than nothing. I made occasional attempts to further clean and lubricate the ASR, still afraid to really take it apart. I did manage to get the carriage to move somewhat but not really well. The punch seemed to work, punching values that matched whatever it printed. It would punch a line feed, but the paper wouldn't budge. It would also punch a control-G but the bell would not ring. I never made any attempt to hook up the current loop. Everything I did was in local mode. End of part 2. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 11 23:38:32 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 00:38:32 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 Message-ID: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> _Teletype_Tales_ Part 3 - How I Spent My Christmas Vacation If you're still reading, don't worry, this is the last part... but it is a bit long. This year I ended up with a good chunk of "left over" vacation time. My employer implemented a "use or lose" vacation policy and my boss, a _really_ nice guy, was insistent that none of his staff was going to lose any. So I ended up on vacation for the last two weeks of 2010 despite having a rather heavy feature request list on my plate. What to do? Spend a lot of time with my family of course but after a discussion with my wife it was decided that part of my Christmas present would be several uninterrupted days of hobby time. Time to "bite the bullet" and get that teletype working. Or end up with a big pile of levers, cams, spring, cogs, etc. The day came and I jumped in with both feet. I took a few pictures and made a few notes. Then I pulled all of the cables off of the call control unit, popped out the h-plate and lifted the typing unit out. I guess I half expected springs and gears to go flying everywhere but it came out neat and easy. Even after all of the work I had done before, the filth was incredible. In addition to much more dog hair and bug bits, there was oil soaked chad and this "goop" everywhere. But now I could see the source of the goop. Under the typing unit, there was what had been a large foam rubber pad. It had decayed into crumbly dust that, when exposed to oil, turned into the goop. Clearly, more cleaning was required. Do another halfway job? Nope, take it all the way apart. Four screws later and the call control unit lifted out. Two more after that and the keyboard was free. One last screw and the tape reader was out. Now I could fully clean the subbase. Lots of detergent, warm water, gentle scrubbing and, finally, paper towels and it was squeaky clean. I still didn't have the guts to try and disassemble the typing unit or the keyboard, but with access to their undersides, I was able to clean a lot more gunk out of them with a combination of light instrument oil, canned air, paint brushes and toothpicks. Well, that had to be a good bit better. I put it all back together. Getting the h-plate back in isn't too hard once you get the knack. Plug in, local mode, a definite improvement. The carriage movement wasn't perfect but it was much better. The keypress encode/decode now seemed to match in almost all cases. Two problems remained, no line feed and no bell. I took the typing unit back out and looked carefully at the area of the line feed mechanism. It was substantially different from the illustrations in the documents. At this point, I made what turned out to be a great decision. I brought out the KSR to see if its line feed mechanism looked like the docs. The h-plate in the KSR was already out as a result of its previous misadventures. Pulling the cables to the call control unit was easy and I lifted out the KSR typing unit. Its line feed mechanism seemed to match the docs. As I looked at it, I realized that it didn't seem to be damaged in any way. I hand turned the motor a few revolutions and everything seemed OK. I decided I would give it a try, installed in the ASR. I spent a little while, giving it the same cleaning I gave the ASR typing unit. One interesting "tidbit" about this typing unit is that, sometime in its past, it clearly "ate" a ribbon. There were bits of shredded ribbon all through it. My hands were black. To make a long story short, the KSR typing unit worked perfectly in the ASR, bell, line feed and all. During the test, I didn't reconnect the reader to the call control unit because the reader control mechanism is part of the ASR typing unit and I was concerned that the reader might "run wild". So now I'm looking at the docs, wondering how hard it would be to transfer the punch and reader control over to the KSR typing unit. The punch seemed like it would be almost trivial. It was, _almost_. The punch essentially just bolts onto the side of the typing unit. There are eight small levers that control which holes are punched and there is a large lever that provides the "power". The small levers simply drop into place, connecting with push rods in the typing unit. The large lever connects to a rotating shaft in the typing unit. Here's where the trick is. The lever connects to the shaft via a sleeve. The shaft has holes all the way through it, the sleeve has holes on both sides and screws go all the way through the sleeve and the shaft. There is almost no play in the connection... almost. I took out the KSR typing unit and transferred the punch mechanism to it. I put the KSR typing unit back in, threaded in some tape and tried it. Shredded tape. What??? Everything sure looked OK. The "bit" levers looked like they were all moving correctly, the large lever seemed to be going through its motions. I spent a long time watching it. Finally, I tried putting it back on the ASR typing unit. Shredded tape. WHAT!!! What could possibly have changed? Maybe I attached the sleeve for the large lever to the wrong holes? No, those are the only holes in the shaft. That's when I noticed that little bit of play. Just three or four degrees. That couldn't possibly make any difference, could it? I held the play all the way clockwise and tightened the sleeve screws. Shredded tape. I loosened up the sleeve, held the play all the way counter-clockwise and retightened. Perfect! I moved the punch back to the KSR typing unit and, with my new knowledge, got it attached and working. After the punch experience, I spent a very long taking exact measurements of the reader control mechanism that needed to be moved to the KSR typing unit. It is a complicated little assembly, consisting of a cam controlled lever that moves based on whether a solenoid is energized and in turn opens and closes a switch as the cam rotates. It looked like the location tolerances of the whole thing would be about a sixteenth of an inch. There is a spring that attaches to the lever and keeps it pressed tight against the cam. I transferred the mechanism. Attaching the spring turned out to be the hardest part of the whole job. The lever end of the spring is "permanently" attached, but the other end has to thread through a tight space and hook over a small pin that is part of the typing unit frame. I fooled with it for more than an hour. What finally worked was to tie some plastic fishing line to the end of the spring, guide the line to the pin and use the line to stretch the spring over to the pin. I used a piece of "coat hanger" wire to coax the loop at the end of the spring over the pin and then finally reached in with a long thin scalpel to cut the line and pull it out. "There's the easy part done," I said to myself. I figured I would spend the rest of the day getting the lever, solenoid and switch lined up correctly. I put the KSR... well, now it was really the ASR, typing unit back in and fired it up. The bit gods, or maybe Rube Goldberg himself, smiled upon me. It worked the first time. Now to talk to the world. I don't have anything that is currently configured to "talk" current loop but I have a current loop to RS-232 converter. I'll spare you the details of frustratingly confusing documents that aren't clear about which wire pairs the 33 is sending on and which it is receiving on, but I will mention that the current loop to RS-232 converter is pretty old and populated with tantalum capacitors. Guess what caught fire? Fortunately, B&B publishes the schematics for the converter on the web. They also publish a nice little document that shows how to wire up a 20ma current source for the loop. In case you didn't look before, the pictures are here: http://wsudbrink.dyndns.org:8080/images/teletype/ P1010006 and P1010007 show the converter and the current source, built in an old RS-232 patch box. The pin sockets had been previously damaged, so I removed them and soldered the circuit directly to the PC board in the patch box. Oh, the external power connector on the RS-232 converter melted when the caps burned, so the patch box also supplies power to the converter. But that was it for the problems. The 33 now talks to itself perfectly in local mode and talks to the world over the RS-232 converter. I've hooked it up to one of my IMSAIs and to my Altair 680. So, that's about it, the end of an almost ten year "saga". What's left? Two things, one big but minor and one small but rather major. The big minor thing is the back panel to the stand. It's missing, it's big, but you can't see it unless you pull the unit away from the wall and walk around back. Its absence doesn't seem to hurt anything and I'm not even sure the unit originally had one as there are no scuffs or scratches where you would expect if one had been installed. Now, the small major thing is the small screw (Teletype part number TP183112) that holds the paper tape reader cover in place. It is physically small, but it is major because the cover bounces around during normal operation without it. It seems to be a rather special screw, more like a threaded rod. If I can't get an original, I will probably try to fabricate one myself. Oh, the last thing is the KSR unit. It is partially operating, no bell or line feed and under the wrong cover. I'm going to hang on to it for spares if anything in the ASR breaks. I guess I really lucked out in my recent restoration. I didn't have to dig deeply into the keyboard or the typing units... knock on wood, I can't imagine what horrors of finely tuned springs and levers lurk in them :-). I hope you have enjoyed reading this, Bill Sudbrink, January 2011 From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 00:18:47 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 04:18:47 -0200 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <2035412D675143DD8304558B84C055E8@portajara> > I hope you have enjoyed reading this, Sure I did, congratulations Bill! From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 12 01:24:44 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 02:24:44 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> > The big minor thing is the back panel to the stand. It's missing Bill, we have several *SR-33 "parts" machines; I'll mail you a back panel for the stand. Send me your address in a private message. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 12 02:59:20 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 08:59:20 -0000 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> Message-ID: <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz > Sent: 12 January 2011 07:25 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Teletype Tales Part 3 > > > > The big minor thing is the back panel to the stand. It's missing > > Bill, we have several *SR-33 "parts" machines; I'll mail you a back panel for the > stand. Send me your address in a private message. I remember my first computer experiences were in terminal rooms full of teletypes. You realised just how noisy they were when the machine (a DECSYSTEM-20) went down and all the terminals stopped at once. I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem pretty rare these days. Regards Rob From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 12 03:05:32 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 04:05:32 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> > I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem pretty rare these days. Not really. Check with your nearest ham radio geezer. :) From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jan 12 05:41:22 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:41:22 -0000 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net><005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Be careful.. Teletypes used for ham radio are Baudot code. Those for US TWX and computer are Ascii. Regards ? Rod Smallwood G8DGR ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: 12 January 2011 09:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype Tales Part 3 > I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem pretty rare these days. Not really. Check with your nearest ham radio geezer. :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 12 08:54:54 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 06:54:54 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi I have an ASR33 that is similar. I've just not had time to tinker with it. When I got it, it seemed to be missing the power board for the reader. I finally made one with a piece of vector board. I had the machine and stand shipped in two packages. I'd not opened the stand because I had't finished fiddling with the unit. I needed to make a little more space and guess what I found in the box for the stand. you guessed it, the supply board for the tape reader. The H plate is easy to do, jammed on the end of a screw driver blade. Dwight From db at db.net Wed Jan 12 09:26:34 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:26:34 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> References: <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110112152634.GA93575@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 04:05:32AM -0500, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem pretty rare these days. > > Not really. Check with your nearest ham radio geezer. :) ummm I don't _think_ I am a ham radio geezer *yet*. ;-) - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From db at db.net Wed Jan 12 09:36:05 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:36:05 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 11:41:22AM -0000, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Be careful.. Teletypes used for ham radio are Baudot code. Those for US TWX Hey, I thought you guys steadfastly referred to that as 'Murray code' technically the proper name for it. ;-) > and computer are Ascii. Those were the old TTY 15 or TTY 19s. The 19s were the ASR (paper tape). Some early computer buffs *did* wire those beasts up for printer use in the very early days. BYTE magazine I believe. UPPER CASE ONLY OF COURSE but better than nothing back then. I would imagine these are of interest to some other g33ks too. It would be hard those with a 33 or 35 I'd think. > > > Regards > ? > Rod Smallwood G8DGR - 73 Diane Bruce VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 12 09:53:44 2011 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 07:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110112152634.GA93575@night.db.net> Message-ID: <827282.5518.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > > >I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem > pretty rare these days. > > > > Not really.? Check with your nearest ham radio > geezer.???:) > > ummm I don't _think_ I am a ham radio geezer *yet*.? > ;-) > > - 73 Diane VA3DB Geezerhood seems to get closer all the time for me. "We used to have to load whole operating systems by hand on toggle switches and we had to learn Morse code at 142 WPM while walking up hill in the snow both ways. Hey, you kids, get off my yard!" BLS - WD4AWY From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 10:04:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:04:56 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D2DD128.6040906@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 4:05 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem pretty rare these >> days. > > Not really. Check with your nearest ham radio geezer. :) I dunno about that. Having spent most of the 80s doing lots of ham radio, I knew dozens of hams in the NJ/PA area, and (nature of the beast) several in far-away places. I never knew a single one who had a Teletype. Not one. I've been looking for an ASR-33 since about 1989, and finally got one about a year and a half ago. I didn't really shake the trees, but I did ask pretty much everyone. I suspect these aren't as common as many people seem to think. -Dave (formerly KA2UZK, expired since the early 90's, waiting to get out of "crisis mode" so I can learn all the new regs and re-up) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 12 10:13:18 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:13:18 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2DD128.6040906@neurotica.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <4D2DD128.6040906@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D2DD31E.6090205@snarc.net> > I dunno about that. Having spent most of the 80s doing lots of ham > radio, I knew dozens of hams in the NJ/PA area, and (nature of the > beast) several in far-away places. I never knew a single one who had > a Teletype. Not one. Oh well. Maybe my group has just been lucky. We have a pallet full of parts machines. Lately they've been showing up on our doorstep almost as often as C-64s. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 10:26:48 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:26:48 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2DD31E.6090205@snarc.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <4D2DD128.6040906@neurotica.com> <4D2DD31E.6090205@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D2DD648.6070004@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 11:13 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> I dunno about that. Having spent most of the 80s doing lots of ham >> radio, I knew dozens of hams in the NJ/PA area, and (nature of the >> beast) several in far-away places. I never knew a single one who had a >> Teletype. Not one. > > Oh well. Maybe my group has just been lucky. We have a pallet full of > parts machines. Lately they've been showing up on our doorstep almost as > often as C-64s. When I get home (I'm in WV for an extended stay to help with the estate of a deceased family member) I will check my '33. I know I need a top hat, but there might be a few other things. Maybe I can hit up your pallet of parts machines. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 12 11:07:40 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:07:40 -0800 Subject: DTCyber 5.0 source available Message-ID: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> http://www.controlfreaks.org/DtCyber/trunk/ Tom Hunter posted in Sep, 2009 that the source would be available after Sep, 2010 and he followed through on that promise. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 12 11:13:21 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:13:21 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> Compuserve was a major company in the 80's and early 90's... Are there are video's of their datacenters or a walk-through documentary of them and their network and capabilities, it would be great to have more of understanding of their physical layout and facilities prior to Internet boom of the 90's Curt From db at db.net Wed Jan 12 11:14:05 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:14:05 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <827282.5518.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <20110112152634.GA93575@night.db.net> <827282.5518.qm@web83907.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110112171405.GA95390@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 07:53:44AM -0800, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > > >I would love to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem > > pretty rare these days. ... > Geezerhood seems to get closer all the time for me. > ... > code at 142 WPM while walking up hill in the snow > both ways. Hey, you kids, get off my yard!" Hey, we had to do that barefoot. You guys got it easy. > > BLS - WD4AWY > - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 12 11:14:52 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:14:52 -0600 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110112171452.GF26250@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (01/12/2011 at 10:36AM -0500), Diane Bruce wrote: > > Those were the old TTY 15 or TTY 19s. The 19s were the ASR (paper tape). > Some early computer buffs *did* wire those beasts up for printer use > in the very early days. BYTE magazine I believe. UPPER CASE ONLY OF COURSE > but better than nothing back then. I would imagine these are of interest > to some other g33ks too. It would be hard those with a 33 or 35 I'd think. Don't forget the model 28 which is probably the most popular 5-level unit that many hams ended up with-- and there is the model 32 which looks exactly like a model 33 except that the 32 is baudot and the 33 is ascii. The PROM monitor in the Altair 680b supports a BAUDOT console and the board provids a 60mA current loop interface to connect it up-- for both in and out... and you can load Motorola S-record formatted binaries from your 5-level paper tape reader should you have one. Chris N0JCF -- Chris Elmquist From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 12 11:26:23 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:26:23 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 Message-ID: > I remember my first computer experiences were in terminal rooms full of > teletypes. You realised just how noisy they were when the machine (a > DECSYSTEM-20) went down and all the terminals stopped at once. I would love > to get hold of an ASR33 but they seem pretty rare these days. Don't forget THE SMELL of a room of working model 33's. I'm not sure exactly what the smell was - probably a mix of ozone from the motors, warm oil on the mechanical parts, and some of the smell of oiled paper tape - but that was part of the experience too :-) Oiled paper tape could actually go rancid under some conditions (that I'm unclear about today!). I wonder if that's one of the smells I remember. In particular the smell from the hoppers that Caught the holes punched from the tape as being not the typical Teletype smell but something stronger and more offensive. The hoppers Were not necessarily emptied daily :-) Tim. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 11:29:00 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:29:00 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Compuserve was a major company in the 80's and early 90's... > > Are there are video's of their datacenters or a walk-through documentary of > them and their network and capabilities, it would be great to have more of > understanding of their physical layout and facilities prior to Internet boom > of the 90's It sure would be neat to see, but I doubt there is much at all available. I assume that they were as camera-paranoid as AOL was just a few years later. Taking any pictures or video inside the machine rooms would lead to instant termination. Video crews looking for machine room footage would be shown the door. -- Will From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 11:24:56 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:24:56 -0200 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net> <005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net><4D2DD128.6040906@neurotica.com> <4D2DD31E.6090205@snarc.net> Message-ID: <47183ABE186545ADB2E931F0656124FD@portajara> > Oh well. Maybe my group has just been lucky. We have a pallet full of > parts machines. Lately they've been showing up on our doorstep almost > as often as C-64s. And I still don't have a C64... :( From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 12 11:34:13 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:34:13 +0100 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 12:29:00PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > It sure would be neat to see, but I doubt there is much at all > available. I assume that they were as camera-paranoid as AOL was just > a few years later. Taking any pictures or video inside the machine > rooms would lead to instant termination. Video crews looking for > machine room footage would be shown the door. I wonder why, perhaps afraid to atract burglars? - Pontus. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 11:44:46 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:44:46 -0600 Subject: 802.11b ISA? Message-ID: For fun, I'd like to mix old with slightly-less-old and put an 802.11 wireless card in my old Compaq 386 luggable. Does anyone know if there is a card that is both ISA and has DOS drivers? Doing WEP would be a bonus, 128-bit WEP more so. If no WEP, I can set up a separate AP for it but it would be nice to take it on the road (being a "portable" and all.) The Cisco AIR-ISA34x series seem to fit the bill. One chart I found: http://www.kmj.com/cisco/340a.html ...suggests that the ISA342 will do 128-bit WEP. so maybe that is the one to find. Any other ideas/suggestions/experience? -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 12 11:51:04 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 09:51:04 -0800 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> On 1/12/11 9:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Taking any pictures or video inside the machine >> rooms would lead to instant termination. > I wonder why, perhaps afraid to atract burglars? > Industrial Espionage The same reason you can't take detailed photos of industrial processes or bring cameras into any caged data center. Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in this now, or is it a 'trade skill'? From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 12 11:53:33 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:53:33 -0500 Subject: 802.11b ISA? References: Message-ID: <6534C18C0AF24447B6D380FA8D5CB859@dell8300> Lucent Wavelan PCMCIA cards should have DOS drivers, and there are ISA to PCMCIA cards out there. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason T" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 12:44 PM Subject: 802.11b ISA? > For fun, I'd like to mix old with slightly-less-old and put an 802.11 > wireless card in my old Compaq 386 luggable. Does anyone know if > there is a card that is both ISA and has DOS drivers? Doing WEP would > be a bonus, 128-bit WEP more so. If no WEP, I can set up a separate > AP for it but it would be nice to take it on the road (being a > "portable" and all.) > > The Cisco AIR-ISA34x series seem to fit the bill. One chart I found: > > http://www.kmj.com/cisco/340a.html > > ...suggests that the ISA342 will do 128-bit WEP. so maybe that is the > one to find. > > Any other ideas/suggestions/experience? > > -j > > -- > silent700.blogspot.com > Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: > http://chiclassiccomp.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 12:00:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:00:09 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 12:11:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:11:52 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2DEEE8.7090106@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 1:00 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to > wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? I have one, an SPS: http://www.neurotica.com/wiki/Friden_Flexowriter I got it from MIT on the same trip as my ASR-33 and the PDP-11/50. It is *almost* functional; the carriage advance belt is snapped and needs to be repaired or replaced. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:18:21 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:18:21 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Industrial Espionage With big data centers, often there is just way too much at stake. Look at the damage that occurred when AOL had that very long blackout. > Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the > large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in this > now, or is it a 'trade skill'? I think it is a "trade skill", mostly driven by the telephone and mainframe guys. There is still a huge Bell System and IBM influence in the design of data centers. It is too bad a lot of younger Unix and Windows based companies often ignore this knowledge, and it gets them into trouble, or at best, gives them inefficiencies they never realize. Do modern companies (Dell, Compaq, Cisco, Sun, etc.) even still publish the big old installation planning guides like IBM did (and still does)? The ones I have seen look like afterthoughs written on the back of a gum wrapper. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:19:36 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:19:36 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to > wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? RCS has a few, I think I have one kicking around. -- Will From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Jan 12 12:24:20 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:24:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <152224.95949.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Certainly not the same scale I'm sure, but I seem to recall reading that QuantumLink was only run from one Sun server. ________________________________ From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, January 12, 2011 11:13:21 AM Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? Compuserve was a major company in the 80's and early 90's... Are there are video's of their datacenters or a walk-through documentary of them and their network and capabilities, it would be great to have more of understanding of their physical layout and facilities prior to Internet boom of the 90's Curt From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:09:47 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:09:47 -0200 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org><4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> > Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the > large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in this > now, or is it a 'trade skill'? Common knowledge. You know how much heat the computers generate and how much power they eat, etc. From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 12 12:26:25 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:26:25 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D2DF251.3050308@atarimuseum.com> Well it is true - while working at Exodus Communications/Cable & Wireless back in 1999-2002 camera's were absolutely forbidden. At one point GE needed to see the physical setup of their cages for GE.com and GE Corporate Mail.... we had to have their lawyers and Exodus' lawyers, I had to be given permission to bring a camera into the datacenter, escorted by the security guards, took the photo's - the head of security needed to view the images to make sure no other cage contents from adjacent cages were in the photo and then they were given to the GE lawyers, it was a big deal indeed... Now I know from some old issues of Compuserve Magazine I have someplace (not sure where they are right now) there were some fishbowl taken photo's for a dramatic effect and I've seen one or two other photo's of Compuserve data facilities, but no video. I've seen some photo's that people took in the 80's of the outside of the Compuserve corp headquarters, which appeared to be a massive campus. I'm just hoping that somewhere a documentary film or internal promo film may have been shot and we could see what Compuserve was like. When you think about what they accomplished pre-internet, it was a very ambitious and monumental undertaking and it would great to see if some historical material exists on such a key and important part of the on-line age. Curt Al Kossow wrote: > On 1/12/11 9:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Taking any pictures or video inside the machine >>> rooms would lead to instant termination. > >> I wonder why, perhaps afraid to atract burglars? >> > > Industrial Espionage > > The same reason you can't take detailed photos of industrial processes > or bring cameras into any caged data center. > > Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the > large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in this > now, or is it a 'trade skill'? > > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 12 12:29:18 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:29:18 -0500 Subject: 802.11b ISA? Message-ID: I think the real gotcha will be the DOS drivers. The 802.11b DOS driver+hardware combo I know about is PCMCIA. ORiNOCO Gold is PCMCIA, has MS-DOS drivers, has 128 bit WEP and was a highly respected card when it was new. PCMCIA card to ISA slot ... I remember some bridges that have Windows 95 or Windows NT drivers for the bridge itself. It's not pretty. Tim. From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jan 12 12:29:15 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:29:15 +0100 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Do modern companies (Dell, Compaq, Cisco, Sun, etc.) even still > publish the big old installation planning guides like IBM did (and > still does)? The ones I have seen look like afterthoughs written on > the back of a gum wrapper. > Not sure about this, but I keep one IBM manual with the specifications of the technical floor of our DataCenter. It appears to be standard and not special for us. And I retired it from the dumpster two years ago, together with some old DOS/VS, CICS, DL/I and PL/I manuals. Sergio From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:35:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:35:48 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> Message-ID: > ? Common knowledge. You know how much heat the computers generate and how > much power they eat, etc. It's not so simple... -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:40:44 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:40:44 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DF251.3050308@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <4D2DF251.3050308@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > Now I know from some old issues of Compuserve Magazine I have someplace (not > sure where they are right now) there were some fishbowl taken photo's for a > dramatic effect and I've seen one or two other photo's of Compuserve data > facilities, but no video. ? ? I've seen some photo's that people took in the > 80's of the outside of the Compuserve corp headquarters, which appeared to > be a massive campus. Computer Desicions, a 1970-80s Datamation clone, has a monthly section with pictures of data centers. Pure eye candy. I wonder if Compuserve ever had spread there. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:41:41 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:41:41 -0600 Subject: 802.11b ISA? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I think the real gotcha will be the DOS drivers. > > The 802.11b DOS driver+hardware combo I know about is PCMCIA. ORiNOCO Gold is PCMCIA, has MS-DOS drivers, has 128 bit WEP and was a highly respected card when it was new. > > PCMCIA card to ISA slot ... ?I remember some bridges that have Windows 95 or Windows NT drivers for the bridge itself. It's not pretty. Ahhh....ideas.....I know I have at least one ORiNOCO Gold card (used to be my main wireless card in the wardriving days) and I know I have an ISA-PCMCIA around here somewhere.... From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 12 12:41:49 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:41:49 -0500 Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes Message-ID: http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/computer-room-fisheye.html Betcha there's other pictures in Columbus Ohio newspaper archives, less hands-on-geek stuff and more PR stuff. Tim. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jan 12 12:51:06 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 10:51:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <855457.68060.qm@web121609.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 1/12/11, William Donzelli wrote: > Do modern companies (Dell, Compaq, Cisco, Sun, etc.) even > still > publish the big old installation planning guides like IBM > did (and > still does)? The ones I have seen look like afterthoughs > written on > the back of a gum wrapper. I've never seen any such manual, but I've seen plenty of data center designs like that. One customer's site had several 1 and 2U servers, all jammed into a two-post comms rack, all stacked on top of the one piece of hardware that actually mounted into the rack, the router. It's amazing that the rack didn't fall over. Their other servers were tower cabinets sitting on the floor. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 12:52:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:52:59 -0500 Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/computer-room-fisheye.html > > Betcha there's other pictures in Columbus Ohio newspaper archives, less hands-on-geek stuff and more PR stuff. Are those tower things spinning DECtape racks? -- Will From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 12 13:03:02 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:03:02 -0500 Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes Message-ID: >> http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/computer-room-fisheye.html >> >> Betcha there's other pictures in Columbus Ohio newspaper archives, less hands-on-geek stuff and more PR stuff. > Are those tower things spinning DECtape racks? Yep, even better labeled picture in the lower right here, you can see how they slant in and down: http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/polyptych-1976.html That's a fascinating website not just for pictures but for overall folklore. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 13:26:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:26:26 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> Message-ID: <4D2E0062.8030101@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 1:35 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Common knowledge. You know how much heat the computers generate and how >> much power they eat, etc. > > It's not so simple... Actually it is once you've done it once or twice. The vast majority of it is common sense and logic. Anyone who tells you otherwise is trying to justify a fat bill. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Jan 12 13:40:00 2011 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 14:40:00 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 Message-ID: <089f01cbb290$80f02e50$82d08af0$@sudbrink@verizon.net> dwight elvey wrote: > I needed to make a little more space and guess > what I found in the box for the stand. you guessed > it, the supply board for the tape reader. That is the same way mine is configured. I think it is using the whole stand as a heat sink. > The H plate is easy to do, jammed on the end of > a screw driver blade. Like I said, "once you get the knack". Bill From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 12 13:55:50 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 11:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/computer-room-fisheye.html >>> >>> Betcha there's other pictures in Columbus Ohio newspaper archives, less hands-on-geek stuff and more PR stuff. > >> Are those tower things spinning DECtape racks? > > Yep, even better labeled picture in the lower right here, you can see how they slant in and down: > > http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/polyptych-1976.html > > That's a fascinating website not just for pictures but for overall folklore. > I really, really want to thank you for posting that link. I flipped through the pages a bit and found this: http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/emi-flight-planning-1982-07/ It discusses an online flight planning service that may help get a patent invalidated (a company called FlightPrep is suing a flight planning website for patent infringement - see http://blog.runwayfinder.com if you're curious). g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 14:39:52 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:39:52 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D2E1198.1060804@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 1:18 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Do modern companies (Dell, Compaq, Cisco, Sun, etc.) even still > publish the big old installation planning guides like IBM did (and > still does)? The ones I have seen look like afterthoughs written on > the back of a gum wrapper. They do, but to nowhere the level of detail that IBM does. There's still enough in there to be useful, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 12 14:07:37 2011 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:07:37 -0000 Subject: HP drives References: Message-ID: <01f401cbb299$0b69e1e0$502a5f0a@user8459cef6fa> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 8:13 PM Subject: Re: HP drives > > > > I thought you could only read/write to the top layer of the harddrive > > platter, or do some drives allow writing to both sides? > > Except for a ferw very odd ones (e.g. hard drives which record analagoue > singals such as analogue video [1]) every hard disk I've worked on has > used both sides of all platters for something. Maybe not user data > storage (for excample, it may contain servo information only), but there > will be a head on it. > > [1[] Yes such things did exist. They were used for action replays on TV, > for exmaple. And somewhere I have a vido output system for the PDP11 > which uses a special hard disk as its video memeory). > > In the context of a hard disk, though, a 'cylinder' means all the tracks > that can be accessed without moving the heads. So if you have 4 data > surfaces (such as the ST412), a cylinder contains 4 tracks. In an RK07, > which has 3 data surfaces and 1 servo surface, as cylinder it 3 tracks. > And so on. > > -tony Ahh, I see. Thanks for that Tony. You (or more accurately, I) learn something new every day - especially on this list :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 14:46:04 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:46:04 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org><4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> Message-ID: <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the >> large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in this >> now, or is it a 'trade skill'? > > Common knowledge. You know how much heat the computers generate and how > much power they eat, etc. There are other considerations. For cooling, you have to take into account airflow and hot spots (which are not always easy to predict!), and vent tile type and placement (if raised flooring is in use). For power, there's distribution patterns, phase and branch balancing, headroom, start surge considerations and sequencing, and grounding. And don't forget floor loading considerations. And fire control. And cableways in and out of the room. But as I said earlier, it's almost all common sense and logic. You don't put one of four wheels of a 2000lb computer on a tile that's rated for 400lb, for example. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jan 12 14:56:54 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:56:54 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net><005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <4D2E1596.3080003@brouhaha.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Be careful.. Teletypes used for ham radio are Baudot code. There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of the ITA2 five-level code. Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 12 14:57:03 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:57:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <152224.95949.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from geoffrey oltmans at "Jan 12, 11 10:24:20 am" Message-ID: <201101122057.p0CKv3Tp011902@floodgap.com> > Certainly not the same scale I'm sure, but I seem to recall reading that > QuantumLink was only run from one Sun server. QuantumLink, to the best of my knowledge, was always Stratus. During the waning days AOL kept the old Stratus on for QLink subscribers until they came up with the Y2K excuse and powered it down. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Faith is to be sure of what you hope for. -- The Kry, "Take My Hand" ------- From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 12 14:58:54 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 12:58:54 -0800 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:51 AM > Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the > large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in > this now, or is it a 'trade skill'? There used to be (perhaps still are, but I haven't needed the info) companies that taught classes on computer room design and/or data center design in the large, often in the guise of "disaster planning". These were actually accredited classes which offered Continuing Education Units to those who cared about such things. So while much of it was "trade skill", there were places to get a leg up on the issues. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 15:00:04 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:00:04 -0600 Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 1:03 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Yep, even better labeled picture in the lower right here, you can see how they slant in and down: > > http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/photos/polyptych-1976.html I see three things were required to work in the datacenter back then: ties, beards and plaid :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 14:56:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:56:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3# In-Reply-To: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 12, 11 00:38:32 am Message-ID: > I still didn't have the guts to try and disassemble the typing unit > or the keyboard, but with access to their undersides, I was able to Puty, becaue it really isn't that hard. If i could do it without the manuals and without this list while still at school, then you can do it now :-) > problems remained, no line feed and no bell. I took the typing unit > back out and looked carefully at the area of the line feed mechanism. > It was substantially different from the illustrations in the documents. Do you have the partsbook? I find it to be one of the most useful manuals for the Model 33 becuase of all the exploded diagrams. Anyway, the partsbook I have shows 2 different versions of the friction-feed platten mechanism. The older one has ratchet teeth at both ends of the platten, the later one only at the left side. [..] > The punch seemed like it would be almost trivial. It was, _almost_. The > punch essentially just bolts onto the side of the typing unit. There are > eight small levers that control which holes are punched and there is a > large lever that provides the "power". The small levers simply drop into > place, connecting with push rods in the typing unit. The large lever > connects to a rotating shaft in the typing unit. Here's where the trick is. > The lever connects to the shaft via a sleeve. The shaft has holes all the > way through it, the sleeve has holes on both sides and screws go all the > way through the sleeve and the shaft. There is almost no play in the > connection... almost. I took out the KSR typing unit and transferred the > punch mechanism to it. > > I put the KSR typing unit back in, threaded in some tape and tried it. > Shredded > tape. What??? Everything sure looked OK. The "bit" levers looked like > they were all moving correctly, the large lever seemed to be going through > its motions. I spent a long time watching it. Finally, I tried putting it > back on the ASR typing unit. Shredded tape. WHAT!!! What could possibly > have changed? Maybe I attached the sleeve for the large lever to the wrong > holes? No, those are the only holes in the shaft. That's when I noticed > that little bit of play. Just three or four degrees. That couldn't > possibly make any difference, could it? I held the play all the way > clockwise > and tightened the sleeve screws. Shredded tape. I loosened up the sleeve, > held the play all the way counter-clockwise and retightened. Perfect! I > moved the punch back to the KSR typing unit and, with my new knowledge, got > it attached and working. That link is actually in 2 parts -- the sleeve that clamps to the shaft and the crank plate that carries the link to the punch. They re held together by a screw. Loosening that gives you quite a bit of adjustment (10's of degrees)(, and that's waht you should be using. > > After the punch experience, I spent a very long taking exact measurements of > the reader control mechanism that needed to be moved to the KSR typing unit. > It is a complicated little assembly, consisting of a cam controlled lever > that moves based on whether a solenoid is energized and in turn opens and > closes a switch as the cam rotates. It looked like the location tolerances > of the whole thing would be about a sixteenth of an inch. There is a spring > that attaches to the lever and keeps it pressed tight against the cam. I > transferred the mechanism. Attaching the spring turned out to be the > hardest > part of the whole job. The lever end of the spring is "permanently" It's a lot easier if you remove the transmitter shaft first. Take the distributoir unit apart, then unto the clamps over the bearings and essentailly the shaft justlifts out. > attached, > but the other end has to thread through a tight space and hook over a small > pin that is part of the typing unit frame. I fooled with it for more than > an > hour. What finally worked was to tie some plastic fishing line to the end > of > the spring, guide the line to the pin and use the line to stretch the spring > over to the pin. I used a piece of "coat hanger" wire to coax the loop at > the > end of the spring over the pin and then finally reached in with a long thin > scalpel to cut the line and pull it out. Many years ago I bought a set of speing hooks spedifically for doing things like this. They weren't cheap, but they've saved a lot of bad lanugage over the years :-) > > "There's the easy part done," I said to myself. I figured I would spend the > rest of the day getting the lever, solenoid and switch lined up correctly. > I put the KSR... well, now it was really the ASR, typing unit back in and > fired it up. The bit gods, or maybe Rube Goldberg himself, smiled upon me. > It worked the first time. Actually, I've never hand any problems getting that part to work first time... -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 15:20:18 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:20:18 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <201101122057.p0CKv3Tp011902@floodgap.com> References: <152224.95949.qm@web83913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <201101122057.p0CKv3Tp011902@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > QuantumLink, to the best of my knowledge, was always Stratus. During the > waning days AOL kept the old Stratus on for QLink subscribers until they > came up with the Y2K excuse and powered it down. The Stratus (there may have been more than one) was troublesome, so I bet many were happy to see it leave. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 14:35:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:35:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Progress, DHV11/16D card In-Reply-To: <4D2D1FE6.9000204@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 12, 11 03:28:38 am Message-ID: > Unusual vectors. BTW, if you ever need to find out what vector > something is using, and can make it interrupt, you can set up a "trap > catcher". This is also used to identify what device is causing > interrupts or traps if you're getting rogue ones. Basically you fill > the vector space (or floating vector space) with pairs of words, where > the first word for each vector is the address of the next word, and the > next word contains a zero. This has the effect that, when the CPU uses I seem to rememebnr that RT11 (and possible other OSes) does this to some vector locations anyeay. I recall srotign out a PDP11/34 that was failing with some kind fo illegal address (or illegal instruction, something like that) trap when it tried to boot RT11. The machine would halt with the address of the illegal whatever trap in the display The apporpirate vector locaiton did, indeed cotnain .+2, 0 . And a bit of work showed it was indeed trapping to that location, and not (say) jumping to the second word for some reason. After much testing, etc. I finally found the proble, A dodgy swithc on the DL11-W card was truning the console interrupt vecotr into the illegal instruction one. So as soon as the system eneabled interrupys on the console port and the console port interrupted (probably to say it was ready to outptu a character), the system halted. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 15:03:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:03:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 12, 11 06:54:54 am Message-ID: > > > > Hi > I have an ASR33 that is similar. I've just not had time > to tinker with it. > When I got it=2C it seemed to be missing the power board > for the reader. I finally made one with a piece of > vector board. > I had the machine and stand shipped in two packages. > I'd not opened the stand because I had't finished > fiddling with the unit. > I needed to make a little more space and guess > what I found in the box for the stand. you guessed > it=2C the supply board for the tape reader. That's probably becuase in the standard configuration, the reader power supply is mounted in the stand, not in the main unit. Be warned that the reader power supply does not contain a transformer. The reader solenoid, and the trip contacts at the rear right of the typing unit are thus 'hot'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 14:39:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 1 In-Reply-To: <082801cbb21a$0f9507b0$2ebf1710$@sudbrink@verizon.net> from "Bill Sudbrink" at Jan 12, 11 00:32:10 am Message-ID: > I should point out here that, while I'm not bothered by the complexity > of electronic circuits, I find mechanical complexity (lots of levers, > gears, cogs and the like) a bit intimidating. I guess I had a mis-spent childhood. I grew up taking mechanicla things apart, and more importantly putting them together again. When I got my first ASR33 (back in 1985 I think), I didn't have the maniuals, there were no mailing lists like this (at least not in the UK), but I still, very carefully, took it apart, right down to the last nut and bolt. And then put it together again. I would like to say it worked first time, but that would be a lie. No, I'd mis-assembled the feed-supression linkage so that it moved the carriage on control codes. But it didn't take me too long to figure htat out too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 15:06:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:06:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jan 12, 11 10:36:05 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 11:41:22AM -0000, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > > Be careful.. Teletypes used for ham radio are Baudot code. Those for US TWX > > Hey, I thought you guys steadfastly referred to that as 'Murray code' > technically the proper name for it. ;-) Some of us do, at least when I'm being prcise... > > > and computer are Ascii. > > Those were the old TTY 15 or TTY 19s. The 19s were the ASR (paper tape). There were, of course, many other mdoels. In particular the Mdoel 32 seems ot be the 5-level (Baudot/Murray) version of the Model 33 with quite a few parts in common. Over here, the common Teletype (meaning something made by Teletype Corp) is the model 33. Most of the 5 level machines you get here are Creeds. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 15:11:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:11:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Jan 12, 11 12:26:23 pm Message-ID: > Don't forget THE SMELL of a room of working model 33's. I'm not sure > exactly what the smell was - probably a mix of ozone from the motors, Why would an ASR33 motor emit ozone? [All the AS33s I've seen have induction motors with no brushes or other sparking contacts. Creeds often have seriosu-wound commutator motors (aka 'universal motors') with governers on them. They will spark.] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 15:13:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:13:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 12, 11 10:00:09 am Message-ID: > > > The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to > wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? Alas one flexowriter does not make a 'collection' :-) -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 15:23:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:23:30 -0500 Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I see three things were required to work in the datacenter back then: > ties, beards and plaid :) And I bet those guys are still have the beards and plaid. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 12 15:24:56 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:24:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jan 12, 11 04:20:18 pm" Message-ID: <201101122124.p0CLOuiu011836@floodgap.com> > > QuantumLink, to the best of my knowledge, was always Stratus. During the > > waning days AOL kept the old Stratus on for QLink subscribers until they > > came up with the Y2K excuse and powered it down. > > The Stratus (there may have been more than one) was troublesome, so I > bet many were happy to see it leave. There were probably multiple during the heyday, but I definitely know there was just one at the end. It wasn't connected to anything else and simply sat in its own private hell, essentially. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I've had a wonderful time, but this wasn't it. -- Groucho Marx ------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 12 15:24:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:24:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <01f401cbb299$0b69e1e0$502a5f0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Jan 12, 11 08:07:37 pm Message-ID: > > In the context of a hard disk, though, a 'cylinder' means all the tracks > > that can be accessed without moving the heads. So if you have 4 data > > surfaces (such as the ST412), a cylinder contains 4 tracks. In an RK07, > > which has 3 data surfaces and 1 servo surface, as cylinder it 3 tracks. > > And so on. > Ahh, I see. Thanks for that Tony. The name 'cylinder' comes, of course, from the image of a cylinder paralel to the drive spindle going trhough all the platters. The intersecion of that 'cylinder' and the platters (both sides) are the tracks that you can access without moving the heads. Now, if you had a positioner that could only move half the distance from outside rim of the platter to the spindle, but you had 2 heads per surface suitbleyoffset (so that you could access 2 tracks on each surface without moving the psoitoned) then I would claim that both of thos tracks were part of the same sylinder. For example, if you had 4 data surfaces (and thus 8 hards in this drive), I would say that a 'cylinder' contains 8 tracks, even though the arrangement of said tracks doesn't look like a physical cylinder any more. > You (or more accurately, I) learn something new every day - especially on > this list :) Actually, I learn several things from this list every day. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 12 15:33:26 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 13:33:26 -0800 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D2E1E26.1040501@bitsavers.org> On 1/12/11 12:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:51 AM > >> Something I've wondered about is how people learn to build and run the >> large data centers that now exist. Are there engineering courses in >> this now, or is it a 'trade skill'? > > There used to be (perhaps still are, but I haven't needed the info) > companies that taught classes on computer room design and/or data center > design in the large, often in the guise of "disaster planning". These > were actually accredited classes which offered Continuing Education Units > to those who cared about such things. > > So while much of it was "trade skill", there were places to get a leg up > on the issues. > Actually, I was thinking more about the software side than physical plant. What got me thinking about this were several generations of network based services, things like General Magic, Web TV, Danger, etc. that had big back-end infrastructures, and the huge number of web based services that exist now. Besides being a total nightmare for any attempts for software preservation, I assume that they all came up with differing configuration, backup, and software rollout strategies. The people I have talked to who worked on these systems said that they all learned the stuff on the job, then used what they learned when they built the next system. Rinse, lather, repeat. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 15:36:12 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:36:12 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2E1ECC.2050006@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 4:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to >> wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? > > Alas one flexowriter does not make a 'collection' :-) Sad, it is. What model do you have? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 15:37:01 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:37:01 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <201101122124.p0CLOuiu011836@floodgap.com> References: <201101122124.p0CLOuiu011836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > There were probably multiple during the heyday, but I definitely know there > was just one at the end. It wasn't connected to anything else and simply > sat in its own private hell, essentially. They/it was connected, but not for mere mortals. As I said, troublesome. I bet the numbers dwindled as fast as they could make them go away. It would be sort of fun to decommission a stratus with a big hammer. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 15:37:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:37:14 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2E1F0A.2080904@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 4:11 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Don't forget THE SMELL of a room of working model 33's. I'm not sure >> exactly what the smell was - probably a mix of ozone from the motors, > > Why would an ASR33 motor emit ozone? > > [All the AS33s I've seen have induction motors with no brushes or other > sparking contacts. Creeds often have seriosu-wound commutator motors (aka > 'universal motors') with governers on them. They will spark.] Mine has an induction motor. There are contacts in the "hardware UART", of course, but is there enough current flowing through that circuit to result in anything more than the most insignificant of arcing? If memory serves that's right in the 20mA loop. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 15:39:29 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:39:29 -0600 Subject: Compuserve Fisheyes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 3:23 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I see three things were required to work in the datacenter back then: >> ties, beards and plaid :) > > And I bet those guys are still have the beards and plaid. As long as they ditched the ties, that's ok by me ;) -j From db at db.net Wed Jan 12 15:42:11 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:42:11 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20110112214211.GA99730@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 09:06:48PM +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > ... > > Hey, I thought you guys steadfastly referred to that as 'Murray code' > > technically the proper name for it. ;-) > > Some of us do, at least when I'm being prcise... *nod* ... > > Over here, the common Teletype (meaning something made by Teletype Corp) > is the model 33. Most of the 5 level machines you get here are Creeds. I have seen a Creed and knew they were much more common over in the UK, but they are rare. > > -tony - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 17:25:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:25:45 -0800 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: References: <01f401cbb299$0b69e1e0$502a5f0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Jan 12, 11 08:07:37 pm, Message-ID: <4D2DC7F9.22059.1303E2B@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jan 2011 at 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > Now, if you had a positioner that could only move half the distance > from outside rim of the platter to the spindle, but you had 2 heads > per surface suitbleyoffset (so that you could access 2 tracks on each > surface without moving the psoitoned) then I would claim that both of > thos tracks were part of the same sylinder. For example, if you had 4 > data surfaces (and thus 8 hards in this drive), I would say that a > 'cylinder' contains 8 tracks, even though the arrangement of said > tracks doesn't look like a physical cylinder any more. Well, drives like that certainly existed, as well as drives that used a single positioner located between two or more spindles that moved heads on all drives (think "push pull" or even an X-shaped positioner arm. The CDC 808 recorded 6 tracks in parallel (I still have a head from one) on each head, with IIRC, servicing two spindles on on upper positioner and two spindles on a lower positioner. Transfer was 12 bits in parallel. I know that the 821 (a very rare drive; AFAIK they were specified in some Special Systems RFPs and turned to trash as soon as the 844 drives became available) was similarly configured pretty much the same in appearance. I don't know if any other parallel drives were made by CDC--at least I never used any. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 17:29:06 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:29:06 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Jan 12, 11 12:26:23 pm, Message-ID: <4D2DC8C2.11176.1334F63@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jan 2011 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don't forget THE SMELL of a room of working model 33's. I'm not sure > > exactly what the smell was - probably a mix of ozone from the > > motors, > > Why would an ASR33 motor emit ozone? I did have, years ago, a Model 14 and I seem to recall that the motor may have been centrifugal-start, rather than capacitor start. So there would have been a small arc when starting, but that's it. Mostly, the Teletype oil smelled funny. --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 12 17:59:12 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 15:59:12 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2DC8C2.11176.1334F63@cclist.sydex.com> References: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Jan 12, 11 12:26:23 pm, <4D2DC8C2.11176.1334F63@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Yup, I think it's the oil - and the current-loop circuit board. We've found most of them to be at least browned, if not scorched, and in one machine it had become so hot that one of the resistors had become unsoldered and fallen out! -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 3:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Teletype Tales Part 3 > > On 12 Jan 2011 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Don't forget THE SMELL of a room of working model 33's. I'm not > sure > > > exactly what the smell was - probably a mix of ozone from the > > > motors, > > > > Why would an ASR33 motor emit ozone? > > I did have, years ago, a Model 14 and I seem to recall that the motor > may have been centrifugal-start, rather than capacitor start. So > there would have been a small arc when starting, but that's it. > Mostly, the Teletype oil smelled funny. > > --Chuck > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 12 18:05:20 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 18:05:20 -0600 Subject: TSX-Plus help Message-ID: OK... today I discovered the real-time-clock on my 11/23+ was dead, so TSX-Plus wouldn't run properly. I tracked it down to a bad LM339 comparator (inside the chassis power supply, of all places). Miraculously, my local Radio Shack actually had one in stock and it is now working again :) The RL02 pack has RT-11 V4.00 and *two* versions of TSX-Plus on it. The files with the expected .SAV suffix are version 5.0, but there were also several .NEW files (including TSXMOD.NEW even though there was no TSXMOD.SAV). When I run the new TSX-Plus it's version 6.16. Unfortunately both versions are expecting a DL serial line card, not a DH, and they are not interchangeable as far as drivers. And (of course) LINDEF and DHVDEF are two of the short list of parameters that cannot be patched via TSXMOD, but require regenerating the system :( I was hoping to find the distribution files on the pack (such as TSGEN.MAC) but no such luck. So it sounds like I need a new copy of the TSX-Plus distro files... like the hobby-licensed 6.5 :) Jerome H. Fine, would you please contact me offlist if you can help? I've also emailed Lyle Bickley but I haven't seen him on the list in quite a while. thanks for any and all assistance. -Charles From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 18:10:40 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:10:40 -0800 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center Message-ID: Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 Data Center: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 (I have no connection with this seller or listing) From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 18:16:41 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 16:16:41 -0800 Subject: TSX-Plus help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 4:05 PM, Charles Morris wrote: > OK... today I discovered the real-time-clock on my 11/23+ was dead, so > > Unfortunately both versions are expecting a DL serial line card, not a > DH, and they are not interchangeable as far as drivers. And (of Is your 11/23 an M8186 or an M8189? I assume it must be an M8186 as the M8189 has an on board console. From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 18:33:25 2011 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 00:33:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1056694695.7958373.1294878805437.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed39.prod> LinkedIn ------------ I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Wai Sun Wai Sun Chia Owner at Squid Consulting & Integration Malaysia Confirm that you know Wai Sun Chia https://www.linkedin.com/e/rs1ho6-giuxeoqh-2m/isd/2134540464/iiwlQPzs/ -- (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 18:33:40 2011 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 00:33:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <44692149.7946993.1294878820681.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed35.prod> LinkedIn ------------ General, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Wai Sun Wai Sun Chia Owner at Squid Consulting & Integration Malaysia Confirm that you know Wai Sun Chia https://www.linkedin.com/e/djnwms-giuxf0hz-71/isd/2134541438/V55UmQ-z/ -- (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation From waisun.chia at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 18:33:42 2011 From: waisun.chia at gmail.com (Wai Sun Chia) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 00:33:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Invitation to connect on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1309981575.1695456.1294878822251.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed37.prod> LinkedIn ------------ General, I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - Wai Sun Wai Sun Chia Owner at Squid Consulting & Integration Malaysia Confirm that you know Wai Sun Chia https://www.linkedin.com/e/-silvj6-giuxf1pl-2b/isd/2134541550/lg02LGEk/ -- (c) 2010, LinkedIn Corporation From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 12 18:37:51 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 00:37:51 +0000 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org><4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> On 12/01/2011 20:46, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 1/12/11 1:09 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> Common knowledge. You know how much heat the computers generate and how >> much power they eat, etc. > > There are other considerations. For cooling, you have to take into > account airflow and hot spots (which are not always easy to predict!), > and vent tile type and placement (if raised flooring is in use). For > power, there's distribution patterns, phase and branch balancing, > headroom, start surge considerations and sequencing, and grounding. And > don't forget floor loading considerations. And fire control. And > cableways in and out of the room. And security, access control, network connectivity and layout, cooling types, hot/cold aisles, UPS provision, building and energy monitoring/management systems, server monitoring, KVMs/console servers, space allocation. Yes, quite a lot is common sense but there's a lot to consider and plan, and some of it needs expert input if only for reasons of compliance. (I know, we built two new ones in the last two years). As for knowing how much heat is generated and power consumed, reality bears no resemblance to manufacturers' data. Sadly, that matters a lot (because of costs of power infrastructure and cooling provision) when dealing with budget holders and accountants. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 18:40:48 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:40:48 -0200 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center References: Message-ID: > Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 > Data Center: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 Veeryyy powerful datacenter :D I imagine what cooling requeriments are :D From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 19:08:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:08:50 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > And security, access control, network connectivity and layout, cooling > types, hot/cold aisles, UPS provision, building and energy > monitoring/management systems, server monitoring, KVMs/console servers, > space allocation. ?Yes, quite a lot is common sense but there's a lot to > consider and plan, and some of it needs expert input if only for reasons of > compliance. ?(I know, we built two new ones in the last two years). And planning ahead for maintenance, upgrades, decommissionings*, etc.. See, it is not so simple. -- Will, *who once had to Sawzall an big RS/6000 to get it out without breaking a FDDI ring. From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 12 19:13:53 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:13:53 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2E51D1.9030506@snarc.net> > does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? We at the MARCH museum would * love * to acquire a Flexowriter. If anybody has one to donate / trade, please contact me off-list. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 12 19:34:00 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:34:00 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? Message-ID: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Is there a defined standard as to when the READY output on a Shugart-type disc drive should go active? I'm (slowly!) working through the rebuild of one of the Amstrad drives (an EME231 I know to have working mechanical components, potentially good heads, and a fried control board), and I'm stuck on deciding how to deal with the READY output. My initial thought was to hold it inactive until a few INDEX pulses have passed, and the motor speed was within 5% of 'ideal' speed. The plan was to use a 32kHz oscillator and a 4040 counter to get a several-Hz signal, then rig up some logic to check that the disc speed was OK, and after a few valid index cycles enable the drive. Then I started wondering... am I over-engineering this? Would waiting for a couple of full disc rotations be enough to reliably generate a READY signal? Irony is that the read-amp will probably be the easiest part of the whole system... I've got a Motorola appnote which basically says "if you're using a data rate of X and a rotation speed of Y, these parameters will work" -- X and Y being the two parameters the Amstrad drive uses... That just leaves the write amp and erase logic to design (and maybe a 'write lockout' jumper). Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jan 12 21:00:47 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:00:47 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi I believe all 3.5 inch drives without DiskReady will block both the read data and the index until the drive is considered to be ready. Dwight > Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:34:00 +0000 > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? > > Hi guys, > > Is there a defined standard as to when the READY output on a > Shugart-type disc drive should go active? > > I'm (slowly!) working through the rebuild of one of the Amstrad drives > (an EME231 I know to have working mechanical components, potentially > good heads, and a fried control board), and I'm stuck on deciding how to > deal with the READY output. > > My initial thought was to hold it inactive until a few INDEX pulses have > passed, and the motor speed was within 5% of 'ideal' speed. The plan was > to use a 32kHz oscillator and a 4040 counter to get a several-Hz signal, > then rig up some logic to check that the disc speed was OK, and after a > few valid index cycles enable the drive. > > Then I started wondering... am I over-engineering this? Would waiting > for a couple of full disc rotations be enough to reliably generate a > READY signal? > > Irony is that the read-amp will probably be the easiest part of the > whole system... I've got a Motorola appnote which basically says "if > you're using a data rate of X and a rotation speed of Y, these > parameters will work" -- X and Y being the two parameters the Amstrad > drive uses... That just leaves the write amp and erase logic to design > (and maybe a 'write lockout' jumper). > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 12 21:28:32 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:28:32 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D2E7160.6010402@atarimuseum.com> Throw in load balancing, off-site fail over mirror sites, incage and separate offsite backup storage... Geeez, I just bought a 2TB drive the other day for $79 ! We had EMC come in to do an install for FortuneCity and it was a 1.5TB storage system, it was 4 cabinets - one was the controller cabinet (which was cool, it had a built in laptop that folded out from the door and three storage cabs, they were all 72" tall cabinets filled to the brim with drives and then next to it all was a dedicated Sun E450 pedestal unit for managing the whole thing. 220v 3phase 30amp on the controller, pair of 30amp's on each of the storage cab's... That was in early 2000... man talk about cheap storage today! While guidelines are not a fixed cookie cutter fits-all today, the site spec's still needed to meet the manufacture requirements, the controller was 980lbs, the storage cabs were 1,200lbs each so we had to make sure facilities gave the go ahead on the weight load. Power consumption was calc'd and then the manufacture heat dissapation had to be met, the line of cabs were actually set away from the server racks (about a good 6-7' as I recall) and then they were 3' from the cage fencing wall so that if the datacenter build out ever changed (it was an open walkway at the time) and a cage was added adjacent, the circulation was be unobstructed. The datacenter was always at 62 degree's, after working 4-5 hours in there, your knuckles started to stiffen up and you'd feel the cold from the floor come up into your shins... ah.... good times, good times :-) I loved the quietness, all you heard was the sounds of fans whirling away, it was a deafening kind of quiet background noise, I miss that. Curt William Donzelli wrote: >> And security, access control, network connectivity and layout, cooling >> types, hot/cold aisles, UPS provision, building and energy >> monitoring/management systems, server monitoring, KVMs/console servers, >> space allocation. Yes, quite a lot is common sense but there's a lot to >> consider and plan, and some of it needs expert input if only for reasons of >> compliance. (I know, we built two new ones in the last two years). >> > > And planning ahead for maintenance, upgrades, decommissionings*, etc.. > > See, it is not so simple. > > -- > Will, *who once had to Sawzall an big RS/6000 to get it out without > breaking a FDDI ring. > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 21:29:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:29:17 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D2E010D.25242.20F371A@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 1:34, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Then I started wondering... am I over-engineering this? Would waiting > for a couple of full disc rotations be enough to reliably generate a > READY signal? A couple of one-shots work fine--I've also used an 8-pin microcontroller--extremely simple and very stable. You could even use a 6-pin uC. Have a look at the schematics of any 8" drive for examples of one- shot ready circuits. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 21:30:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:30:00 -0500 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 7:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 > Data Center: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 > > (I have no connection with this seller or listing) A beautiful piece of work. Was this some sort of a marketing model? Does anyone know? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 21:32:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:32:50 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk>, Message-ID: <4D2E01E2.7486.2127676@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jan 2011 at 19:00, dwight elvey wrote: > I believe all 3.5 inch drives without DiskReady will block > both the read data and the index until the drive is considered > to be ready. I don't know about the 3" drives; they're pretty primitive. And they're belt-driven, which belt is one of the most frequently-failing parts on these old drives. I suspect that I'd check the drive speed (with software) before formatting/writing tracks when it counts. If the belt is slipping while you're reading, at least it isn't destructive. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 21:34:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:34:54 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2E7160.6010402@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> <4D2E7160.6010402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D2E72DE.5090801@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 10:28 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Throw in load balancing, off-site fail over mirror sites, incage and > separate offsite backup storage... Well sure...but we were talking more about datacenter design, not computer systems or network design. > Geeez, I just bought a 2TB drive the other day for $79 ! We had EMC come > in to do an install for FortuneCity and it was a 1.5TB storage system, > it was 4 cabinets - one was the controller cabinet (which was cool, it > had a built in laptop that folded out from the door and three storage > cabs, they were all 72" tall cabinets filled to the brim with drives and > then next to it all was a dedicated Sun E450 pedestal unit for managing > the whole thing. 220v 3phase 30amp on the controller, pair of 30amp's on > each of the storage cab's... That was in early 2000... man talk about > cheap storage today! It really is amazing. > The datacenter was always at 62 degree's, after working 4-5 hours in > there, your knuckles started to stiffen up and you'd feel the cold from > the floor come up into your shins... ah.... good times, good times :-) I > loved the quietness, all you heard was the sounds of fans whirling away, > it was a deafening kind of quiet background noise, I miss that. It really is a good feeling. Only true geeks seem to appreciate it, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 21:35:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:35:44 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2E010D.25242.20F371A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk>, <4D2E010D.25242.20F371A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2E0290.10928.2151B76@cclist.sydex.com> Anent the issue of microcontrollers vs. analogue solutions, there's an article that doesn't say much in ED today: http://bit.ly/gDcDx1 --Chuck From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Jan 12 21:35:51 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:35:51 -0500 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> References: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D2E7317.3040100@atarimuseum.com> Okay, somebody needs to pick that up, either Al for the CHM or Sellam or Evan.... put that on display, that is just too damned cool !!! Dave McGuire wrote: > On 1/12/11 7:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 >> Data Center: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 >> >> (I have no connection with this seller or listing) > > A beautiful piece of work. Was this some sort of a marketing model? > Does anyone know? > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 21:39:28 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:39:28 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <19ECA4B4F6414232AC82B977DA866CE1@portajara> <4D2E130C.6040103@neurotica.com> <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D2E73F0.6060801@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 8:08 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > Will, *who once had to Sawzall an big RS/6000 to get it out without > breaking a FDDI ring. Why? FDDI works just fine if a ring is broken. Breaking it twice, though, causes problems...was the customer really so anal about a, what, six- or eight-second loss of redundancy? (Yes, I know there are people who are that anal and procedure-oriented. I just try really hard not to associate with them or validate them in any way.) I can't think of any other reason for not just unplugging it. FDDI's built-in redundancy (when operated as a ring with DAS stations anyway) would've taken care of things. And after typing that, it occurred to me that, if they really were that anal, they'd have used optical bypass switches, yet further isolating the system in question. WTF? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 21:40:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:40:20 -0500 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: <4D2E7317.3040100@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> <4D2E7317.3040100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D2E7424.6000305@neurotica.com> Absolutely. Shit, I'd love it have it in my living room. -Dave On 1/12/11 10:35 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Okay, somebody needs to pick that up, either Al for the CHM or Sellam or > Evan.... put that on display, that is just too damned cool !!! > > > > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On 1/12/11 7:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 >>> Data Center: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 >>> >>> (I have no connection with this seller or listing) >> >> A beautiful piece of work. Was this some sort of a marketing model? >> Does anyone know? >> >> -Dave >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 12 21:43:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 19:43:03 -0800 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2E7160.6010402@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org>, , <4D2E7160.6010402@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D2E0447.14481.21BD0DF@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Jan 2011 at 22:28, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The datacenter was always at 62 degree's, after working 4-5 hours in > there, your knuckles started to stiffen up and you'd feel the cold > from the floor come up into your shins... ah.... good times, good > times :-) I loved the quietness, all you heard was the sounds of > fans whirling away, it was a deafening kind of quiet background noise, > I miss that. The previous generation had lots of 7 and 9 track tape drives. The vacuum pumps in those were anything but quiet, particularly if you had 16 or 24 or more of the damned things. It was like a very loud white noise (maybe 80 dB or so); you had to raise your voice above a normal conversational level to be heard. Over an 8 hour session, you felt that your nerves had been scrubbed raw. Oddly enough, the CPU was quiet--it used water for the heat exchanger; no air. Printers and card readers could get to be loud, but they weren't going all the time and the printers had acoustic hoods. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 21:49:50 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:49:50 -0500 Subject: HP drives In-Reply-To: <4D2DC7F9.22059.1303E2B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01f401cbb299$0b69e1e0$502a5f0a@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew Burton" at Jan 12, 11 08:07:37 pm, <4D2DC7F9.22059.1303E2B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2E765E.5090700@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 6:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The CDC 808 recorded 6 tracks in parallel (I still have a head from > one) on each head, with IIRC, servicing two spindles on on upper > positioner and two spindles on a lower positioner. Transfer was 12 > bits in parallel. > > I know that the 821 (a very rare drive; AFAIK they were specified in > some Special Systems RFPs and turned to trash as soon as the 844 > drives became available) was similarly configured pretty much the > same in appearance. I don't know if any other parallel drives were > made by CDC--at least I never used any. Cray (hey, they're at least related to CDC) made several parallel-transfer drives; the DD-49 comes to mind in particular. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 12 21:52:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:52:10 -0500 Subject: TSX-Plus help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2E76EA.3070004@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 7:05 PM, Charles Morris wrote: > OK... today I discovered the real-time-clock on my 11/23+ was dead, so > TSX-Plus wouldn't run properly. I tracked it down to a bad LM339 > comparator (inside the chassis power supply, of all places). > Miraculously, my local Radio Shack actually had one in stock and it is > now working again :) Nice job. I'm guessing that LM339 is used as a zero-crossing detector fed (indirectly) from the AC line, thus forming most of the LTC circuitry. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rollerton at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 21:52:41 2011 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:52:41 -0600 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: <4D2E7424.6000305@neurotica.com> References: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> <4D2E7317.3040100@atarimuseum.com> <4D2E7424.6000305@neurotica.com> Message-ID: I think they were in the sales reps kit, to show the customer how it would fit in their building, and to visualize a layout. if its not the case here, it was in many other industries. On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 9:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Absolutely. Shit, I'd love it have it in my living room. > > -Dave > > > On 1/12/11 10:35 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Okay, somebody needs to pick that up, either Al for the CHM or Sellam or >> Evan.... put that on display, that is just too damned cool !!! >> >> >> >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> On 1/12/11 7:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> >>>> Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 >>>> Data Center: >>>> >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 >>>> >>>> (I have no connection with this seller or listing) >>>> >>> >>> A beautiful piece of work. Was this some sort of a marketing model? >>> Does anyone know? >>> >>> -Dave >>> >>> > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 12 22:00:06 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 23:00:06 -0500 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D2E78C6.8080305@verizon.net> On 1/12/2011 10:00 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > I believe all 3.5 inch drives without DiskReady will block > both the read data and the index until the drive is considered > to be ready. > Dwight My experience echos this at least on standard PC 3.5" floppy drives. When read data starts pulsing, the data is immediately correct and valid. While the drives spin up, read data isn't active at all. The spec sheets I've read all point to 500ms worst case for spin up. I assume the drive waits 'til the RPMs are within tolerance, and then starts pulsing read data. There aren't any invalid pulses, like time between edges too large due to too slow rotational speed. For my purposes (a read-only amiga controller), the initial data coming off the track isn't valuable anyways because you are ALMOST always in the middle of the track at the beginning of the read. There are some corner cases that need to be caught and dealt with appropriately. I've not bothered to use diskready or index in my application, although they are connected to the FPGA -- but I use them to look at RPM consistency, etc. I simply read slightly more than a full track to guarantee I have all sectors in a sequential buffer rather than screw with wrapping the end of the buffer w/ the beginning. I pay a slight per track performance penalty for this but this is negated because I can start reading prior to receiving an index signal.(where some other solutions would just wait) Keith From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 12 22:05:08 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:05:08 -0800 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: <4D2E7317.3040100@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> <4D2E7317.3040100@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <35e182fb8e08dd69eadb310d14d7a288@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 12, at 7:35 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Okay, somebody needs to pick that up, either Al for the CHM or Sellam > or Evan.... put that on display, that is just too damned cool !!! > There have been links for sales of sets like this mentioned on the list previously but I think they were folded cardboard, not the detailed wood and metal of this set. The ebay page linked to this: http://ibmcollectables.com/360holocaust.html Great story, Bob. (.. now we know who to blame) And speaking therein of 360 front panels: ebay 150541712482 IBM 360/50 front panel goes for $5600. -- From the compuserve thread, a little prescience about this hobby: http://www.gsbrown.org/compuserve/valuable-junk-1989-05/ From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 12 22:54:12 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:54:12 -0600 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> References: <4D2E71B8.3080409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > On 1/12/11 7:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >> >> Short on space, power, and cooling? ?Not a problem with this IBM 1401 >> Data Center: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 >> >> (I have no connection with this seller or listing) Awesome - I saw a set like this many years ago (let's say mid-90s) in the window of an "antiques" (junk) store in St. Charles, IL. I think they wanted around $250 for it, and those were the days I was scraping together $5 for meals, so it wasn't going to happen for me. I always assumed it was a salesman's kit, for helping to lay our datacenters (maybe it came with a big sheet of scaled grid paper to represent floor tiles?) Well, I'll be bidding... -j From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jan 12 23:24:18 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 21:24:18 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2E8C82.4040008@jwsss.com> John B and I have several in stock, as well as Justowriters. Jim On 1/12/2011 10:19 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to >> wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? > RCS has a few, I think I have one kicking around. > > -- > Will > > From bpettitx at comcast.net Thu Jan 13 00:11:11 2011 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:11:11 -0800 Subject: Single Head HDDs Message-ID: <682A4C97E2FA45BD83F2AAB779EF5F41@RosemarysPC> Couldn't find original sender: > Except for a few very odd ones (e.g. hard drives which record analagoue > singals such as analogue video [1]) every hard disk I've worked on has > used both sides of all platters for something. Maybe not user data > storage (for excample, it may contain servo information only), but there > will be a head on it. Because of the enormous pressure to reduce cost, single headed drives are very common. And have been for as long as I've been in the HDD industry. For example, current technology is 667 or 750 GB per platter with 1TB/platter due in next 12 months. Yet there is a demand for 250, 300 or 500 GB drives for ultra low cost drives. Especially in the consumer electronics market - for example, DVRs and security systems. Taking out the cost of one head can save $2.50 to $5.00 of manufacturing cost. That is a big chunk of the $25 manufacturing cost typical of the very low end drives. Servo data has been embedded in the data surface for many many years. Most current drives generate their own servo information. Current drives even have a different tpi for the servo versus the data track, even though they are on the same surface. Billy Pettit From bpettitx at comcast.net Thu Jan 13 00:25:39 2011 From: bpettitx at comcast.net (Billy Pettit) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:25:39 -0800 Subject: Data Centers Message-ID: <28CA337F40864099A2FD55C6B651BEF4@RosemarysPC> I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the most critical part of designing a data center: security. The amount of money involved dictates that all details on a data center be closely guarded. Think about the income from ads for Google or selling music on iTunes. Or retailers like eBay or Amazon. Thus information on data centers are the crown jewels for these companies. No way are they going to share this information. The secrecy has reached a point that they will not even acknowledge what country that many of these centers are in, let alone what building. Most have reached the point the military took years ago: no hardware is ever returned to a vendor for repair. It is destroyed on site, never returned for warrenty. Setting up a large data warehouse is a dark arcane science limited to a select few engineers. And the world of the cloud computing will take this secret keeping to another level of paranoia. Billy Pettit From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 13 00:33:00 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:33:00 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D2E9C9C.6020008@neurotica.com> On 1/12/11 12:38 AM, Bill Sudbrink wrote: ... > I hope you have enjoyed reading this, > Bill Sudbrink, January 2011 I finally got a few minutes to sit down and read this. I VERY MUCH enjoyed reading it, thank you for sharing this story! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jan 13 02:45:01 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 08:45:01 -0000 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2E1596.3080003@brouhaha.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net> <4D2D573C.9010108@snarc.net><005301cbb237$01f09300$05d1b900$@ntlworld.com> <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net><301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2E1596.3080003@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <09992C8CEDB94CE5879403E8B22D5A44@RODSDEVSYSTEM> That?s funny I worked on Creed teleprinters in the 1970's and we always referred to them as five unit Baudot. The tape was narrower than the ASR 33 and had five holes plus a sprocket hole. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 12 January 2011 20:57 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Teletype Tales Part 3 Rod Smallwood wrote: > Be careful.. Teletypes used for ham radio are Baudot code. There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of the ITA2 five-level code. Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 13 03:16:25 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:16:25 -0800 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at the same time) Message-ID: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> A random thought popped into my head this evening, and having nothing better to do (well, ok, I have quite a few things better to do to be honest) I decided to go with the impulse. The idea? I have a number of nubus Mac coprocessors and accelerators, amongst them: - An Orange386 PC coprocessor (16Mhz 80386, 4MB ram, CGA graphics) - A Radius Rocket Stage II (Basically a Quadra on a 12" nubus card, complete with 40Mhz CPU and 32mb of RAM) - A Symbolics MacIvory III (The coolest coprocessor ever -- a lisp machine on a card!) Could I run these all at the same time in my trusty Macintosh IIfx? The answer: Yes. (warning, 1600x1200 image): http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/random/5OS.png That's a 40Mhz 68030 IIfx running System 7.6.1, the Radius Rocket running System 7.1, the Orange386 running DOS 5.0, the MacIvory running Genera 8.3, and just for good measure the IIfx is also running Tenon's MachTEN (BSD 4.3 running as a Mac OS process). I didn't leave it running like that for very long, as it's probably more than a bit stressful on the poor IIfx's power supply. But I just had to try it, thought you guys might get a kick out of it... - Josh From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jan 13 03:29:48 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:29:48 +0100 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at the same time) In-Reply-To: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20110113092948.GA20679@Update.UU.SE> Hah! That is awesome! Lisp machine on a card was the icing on the cake :) /P On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 01:16:25AM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote: > A random thought popped into my head this evening, and having > nothing better to do (well, ok, I have quite a few things better to > do to be honest) I decided to go with the impulse. > > The idea? I have a number of nubus Mac coprocessors and > accelerators, amongst them: > > - An Orange386 PC coprocessor (16Mhz 80386, 4MB ram, CGA graphics) > - A Radius Rocket Stage II (Basically a Quadra on a 12" nubus card, > complete with 40Mhz CPU and 32mb of RAM) > - A Symbolics MacIvory III (The coolest coprocessor ever -- a lisp > machine on a card!) > > Could I run these all at the same time in my trusty Macintosh IIfx? > > The answer: Yes. (warning, 1600x1200 image): > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/random/5OS.png > > That's a 40Mhz 68030 IIfx running System 7.6.1, the Radius Rocket > running System 7.1, the Orange386 running DOS 5.0, the MacIvory > running Genera 8.3, and just for good measure the IIfx is also > running Tenon's MachTEN (BSD 4.3 running as a Mac OS process). > > I didn't leave it running like that for very long, as it's probably > more than a bit stressful on the poor IIfx's power supply. But I > just had to try it, thought you guys might get a kick out of it... > > - Josh From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 13 03:56:24 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:56:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to > wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? Not really a collection, but four or five units (two are LGP-30 models). Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 13 04:00:52 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 11:00:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2DF251.3050308@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2DE131.7000203@atarimuseum.com> <20110112173413.GA21725@Update.UU.SE> <4D2DEA08.3000202@bitsavers.org> <4D2DF251.3050308@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Subject: Re: Video's of inside of Compuserve? [...] > back in 1999-2002 camera's were absolutely forbidden. At one point GE [...] > guards, took the photo's - the head of security needed to view the images to [...] > sure where they are right now) there were some fishbowl taken photo's for a [...] > dramatic effect and I've seen one or two other photo's of Compuserve data > facilities, but no video. I've seen some photo's that people took in the > 80's of the outside of the Compuserve corp headquarters, which appeared to be [...] A fan of greengrocer's apostrophes ;-)) [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostrophe#Commission:_greengrocers.27_apostrophes] Christian From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 13 05:23:58 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 06:23:58 -0500 Subject: SCSI to IDE (SCSI2IDE) PCBs have arrived Message-ID: <8A49BBE828A143988779C6F1912CD28D@andrewdesktop> Hi! There is a community project at vintage-computer.com forums to convert IDE drives to SCSI interface to support legacy computers like Amiga, Mac, Atari, etc. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from- IDE-drive-converter The initial batch of prototype PCBs have arrived. Please contact me if interested in working on the SCSI2IDE project. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jan 13 08:26:31 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:26:31 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201101130926.31550.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, January 12, 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > Will, *who once had to Sawzall an big RS/6000 to get it out without > breaking a FDDI ring. Now, that's thinking "out of the box." :) In a similar vein, Purdue couldn't get rid of all of their CDC 6500 (I think) because its Extended Memory cabinet was too big to get it in the existing elevators. To get it into the basement, they had dug a pit, which now was sealed up. They finally got it out after building an extension on the building, designed for the new Cyber 205 they were getting, and putting in a new elevator that was just barely big enough (they couldn't fit a person in the elevator at the same time as the cabinet). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jan 13 08:32:48 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:32:48 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 Message-ID: ? There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of ? the ITA2 five-level code. ? Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until ? the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. Everyone in the past half century has called a Model 28 TTY a Baudot Teletype when They had to distinguish it from any other type. (Baudot is still the default for Several applications so you don't even have to say it's Baudot.) I suppose classiccmp naturally attracts folks who care about such things (witness The thread I started over a few years ago when I noted that bitsavers had surpassed 100 GBytes and everyone informed me that no, a Gbyte was 1073741824 bytes so I was wrong.) Tim. From db at db.net Thu Jan 13 08:56:04 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:56:04 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110113145604.GA15794@night.db.net> On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 09:32:48AM -0500, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > ??? There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of > ??? the ITA2 five-level code. > ??? Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until > ??? the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. > > That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really ... > I suppose classiccmp naturally attracts folks who care about such things (witness It's a list of pedants, which is actually quite fine with me. It was interesting to me hearing it was actually ITA2 five-level code in some circles. Just learn to smile and nod a lot and it's fine. ;-) > > Tim. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 09:15:34 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:15:34 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <201101130926.31550.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org> <4D2E495F.1080507@dunnington.plus.com> <201101130926.31550.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > Now, that's thinking "out of the box." :) Har har har... Anyway, some doofus managed to string fiber through the cabinet (one of the 9309 style cabinets, common with older big AS/400s and RS/6000s). For some reason, the decommissioned machine had to be removed during the day, but we were forbidden to touch the FDDI outside a 3 AM maintenance window. Several blades later... I'll tell you - IBM uses good steel. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 13 09:23:06 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:23:06 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> On 1/13/11 9:32 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > ? There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of > ? the ITA2 five-level code. > ? Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until > ? the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. > > That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really > Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. Heh, or EIA-232D vs. RS-232. (RS == "Recommended Standard") -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 13 10:26:22 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 08:26:22 -0800 Subject: CHM's "Revolution" opens this morning Message-ID: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> One of the things I've been working on for the past five years. http://venturebeat.com/2011/01/13/that-old-computer-in-your-garage-is-history-not-junk-videos/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 13 10:31:18 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 08:31:18 -0800 Subject: CHM's "Revolution" opens this morning In-Reply-To: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D2F28D6.5040805@bitsavers.org> On 1/13/11 8:26 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > One of the things I've been working on for the past five years. > > http://venturebeat.com/2011/01/13/that-old-computer-in-your-garage-is-history-not-junk-videos/ > Here's a 1/2 hour movie tour http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8x-2_Pcwvs From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Jan 13 11:17:33 2011 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 11:17:33 -0600 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <4D2E0447.14481.21BD0DF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org>, , <4D2E7160.6010402@atarimuseum.com> <4D2E0447.14481.21BD0DF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46FDB@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Yes, but it was the card punches that really got the noise levels high! We had a 2540 in our datacenter and thankfully didn't run the punch very often..but when we did......wow! -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu ####? #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ##? ##? ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA????????? ####? #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, January 12, 2011 9:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Video's of inside of Compuserve? On 12 Jan 2011 at 22:28, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > The datacenter was always at 62 degree's, after working 4-5 hours in > there, your knuckles started to stiffen up and you'd feel the cold > from the floor come up into your shins... ah.... good times, good > times :-) I loved the quietness, all you heard was the sounds of > fans whirling away, it was a deafening kind of quiet background noise, > I miss that. The previous generation had lots of 7 and 9 track tape drives. The vacuum pumps in those were anything but quiet, particularly if you had 16 or 24 or more of the damned things. It was like a very loud white noise (maybe 80 dB or so); you had to raise your voice above a normal conversational level to be heard. Over an 8 hour session, you felt that your nerves had been scrubbed raw. Oddly enough, the CPU was quiet--it used water for the heat exchanger; no air. Printers and card readers could get to be loud, but they weren't going all the time and the printers had acoustic hoods. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 13 11:44:51 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:44:51 -0700 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to > > wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? > > Not really a collection, but four or five units (two are LGP-30 models). I picked up two recently, haven't had a chance to investigate them in more detail yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 13 11:46:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 09:46:37 -0800 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46FDB@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <4D2DDFDC.4020100@bitsavers.org>, <4D2E0447.14481.21BD0DF@cclist.sydex.com>, <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E05B46FDB@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <4D2EC9FD.13098.119121@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 11:17, Bob Brown wrote: > Yes, but it was the card punches that really got the noise levels > high! We had a 2540 in our datacenter and thankfully didn't run the > punch very often..but when we did......wow! -Bob Yes, I remember the angry snarl when the punch started up, which was rare, as the darned thing got pretty warm and after about 1000 cards would start throwing verify faults. So it wasn't used a lot, thankfully. Punching was done row-wise, as opposed to the reader which was column-wise. --Chuck From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 13 12:23:06 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 10:23:06 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <78736A1F9A9A4A86A3F149233306D056@tegp4> > > Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:34:00 +0000 > > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? > > > > Hi guys, > > > > Is there a defined standard as to when the READY output on a > > Shugart-type disc drive should go active? > > Thanks, > > Phil. > > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ Having worked on a number of those HDDs and FDDs my recollection is the "standard" for asserting READY was, at a minimum, that a disk was loaded and the drive was "at speed." In some higher end HDDs I seem to recall that it was not asserted until the heads were at TRACK 00 but I could be wrong. Speed tolerance was pretty poor with ac motors and I think we just clocked a retrigerable singleshot with index and required two (or more) indexes faster than the timeout before we then asserted READY. There was probably a pot on the singleshot and I suspect it was set to about 90% of nominal RPM for ac motor drives and probably about 2% for dc motor drives. The only real issues with motor speed not in range are writing out of sector/track boundary (high speed) and read data recovery. With today's good channels read data recover should not a problem over a wide speed range but with the early primitive channels (e.g. "two time constant") this could be a problem. Tom From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 13 13:02:46 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:02:46 -0600 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> Message-ID: <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> The ham radio people tend to look at the ASR-33 as a light-weight junk teletype for amateurs. They generally tried to get rid of them, until they figured out recently that they'll fetch crazy prices from classic computer collectors, especially if they're maintained and working. - John From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 13 14:10:13 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:10:13 -0500 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at thesame time) References: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: How do you like the MacIvory III? I have a couple IIfx machines and I have them stuffed with cards (had one with dual Radius Rockets before, DSP cards plus I have 386 and 486 Orange Micro cards). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:16 AM Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at thesame time) >A random thought popped into my head this evening, and having nothing >better to do (well, ok, I have quite a few things better to do to be >honest) I decided to go with the impulse. > > The idea? I have a number of nubus Mac coprocessors and accelerators, > amongst them: > > - An Orange386 PC coprocessor (16Mhz 80386, 4MB ram, CGA graphics) > - A Radius Rocket Stage II (Basically a Quadra on a 12" nubus card, > complete with 40Mhz CPU and 32mb of RAM) > - A Symbolics MacIvory III (The coolest coprocessor ever -- a lisp machine > on a card!) > > Could I run these all at the same time in my trusty Macintosh IIfx? > > The answer: Yes. (warning, 1600x1200 image): > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/random/5OS.png > > That's a 40Mhz 68030 IIfx running System 7.6.1, the Radius Rocket running > System 7.1, the Orange386 running DOS 5.0, the MacIvory running Genera > 8.3, and just for good measure the IIfx is also running Tenon's MachTEN > (BSD 4.3 running as a Mac OS process). > > I didn't leave it running like that for very long, as it's probably more > than a bit stressful on the poor IIfx's power supply. But I just had to > try it, thought you guys might get a kick out of it... > > - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 13 14:07:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:07:02 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net>, <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D2EEAE6.20015.921F78@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 13:02, John Foust wrote: > > The ham radio people tend to look at the ASR-33 as a light-weight junk > teletype for amateurs. They generally tried to get rid of them, until > they figured out recently that they'll fetch crazy prices from classic > computer collectors, especially if they're maintained and working. Isn't there quite a lot of old 5 level gear (TTY and simple one-line keyboard-displays) around for TDD (for the deaf)? I'm surprised that some of these compact terminals haven't been hacked into service for use on vintage computer gear. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 13 14:31:11 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:31:11 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2EEAE6.20015.921F78@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net>, <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D2EEAE6.20015.921F78@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2F610F.4010106@neurotica.com> On 1/13/11 3:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> The ham radio people tend to look at the ASR-33 as a light-weight junk >> teletype for amateurs. They generally tried to get rid of them, until >> they figured out recently that they'll fetch crazy prices from classic >> computer collectors, especially if they're maintained and working. > > Isn't there quite a lot of old 5 level gear (TTY and simple one-line > keyboard-displays) around for TDD (for the deaf)? > > I'm surprised that some of these compact terminals haven't been > hacked into service for use on vintage computer gear. Are they really 5-level code?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From go at aerodesic.com Thu Jan 13 14:56:24 2011 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 12:56:24 -0800 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> I managed to snag an SPD a few years ago - a little dirty, but everything functions. Also have a full schematic for the beast if anyone is interested... (http://mycroftxxx.com/~go/Flexowriter_Schematic.ps.bz2) Uncompressed, it's about 680mbytes. (Al Kossow: copy if you want to archive on bitsavers) It was originally scanned as a color .tif, which explains it's size. But what I want to know: what are modern equivalents to the two Cannon (I think) plugs that serve as external interface. Mine has the two requisite dummies (well, one has a bunch of wires that I believes enable the tape reader/punch) but I don't really want to use those for connection. I've scoured the Cannon web pages (and our old catalogs at my company) and can't find a specific cross. Lots look close... Anyone have specific information on what secret codes are needed to order exact replacements? -Gary On 01/13/2011 09:44 AM, Richard wrote: > In article, > Christian Corti writes: > > >> On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> The TTY rescue story was certainly interesting, but that got me to >>> wondering--does anyone have a collection of Friden Flexowriters? >>> >> Not really a collection, but four or five units (two are LGP-30 models). >> > I picked up two recently, haven't had a chance to investigate them in > more detail yet. > From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 13 15:03:42 2011 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:03:42 -0600 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at the same time) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 5:24 -0600 1/13/11, Josh wrote: >Could I run these all at the same time in my trusty Macintosh IIfx? > >The answer: Yes. (warning, 1600x1200 image): >http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/random/5OS.png > That is so far beyond cool cool can't even see it any more! I'm totally awe-struck! What a machine! What an idea! How could you *possibly* have anything better to do than that? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 13 15:26:07 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 13:26:07 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2F6DEF.6020700@brouhaha.com> I wrote: ? There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of ? the ITA2 five-level code. ? Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until ? the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. Tim wrote: > That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really > Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot code used significantly different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion. ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations and will generally interoperate reasonably well. Look at the following rows that enumerate the character encodings, and tell me that a Baudot teleprinter can usefully communicate with a teleprinter using ITA2 or US TTY code. The figures shift and letters shift codes aren't even the same! ITA2 is obviously derived from Murray, and to a first glance, it might look like Murray would interoperate with ITA2 or US TTY, but the letters shift is still in the wrong place. Baudot letters: u A E E I O U Y f J G H B C F D l C X Z S T W V u K M L R Q Z P figures: u 1 2 & 3 4 O 5 f 6 7 H 8 9 F 0 l . , : ; ! ? ' u ( ) = - / # % Murray letters: b E j A l S I U c D R J N F C K T Z L W H Y P Q O B G f M X V d figures: b 3 j u l ' 8 7 c u 4 u - u ( u 5 . / 2 u 6 0 1 9 ? u f , # ) d ITA2 letters: b E j A s S I U c D R J N F C K T Z L W H Y P Q O B G f M X V l figures: b 3 j - s ' 8 7 c w 4 g , u : ( 5 + ) 2 u 6 0 1 9 ? u f . / = l US TTY letters: b E j A s S I U c D R J N F C K T Z L W H Y P Q O B G f M X V l figures: b 3 j - s g 8 7 c $ 4 ' , ! : ( 5 " ) 2 # 6 0 1 9 ? & f . / ; l l letters shift f figures shift b blank c carriage return j line feed s space u undefined or variant graphics w who are you g bell d delete From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 15:26:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 16:26:48 -0500 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: > Anyone have specific information on what secret codes are needed to order > exact replacements? Can you send a picture of your specific need? I have almost a complete run of Radio Masters, and I am pretty sure Cannon had a good sized section in each catalog. -- Will From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 15:56:35 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 16:56:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Flakey Multia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Mark Kahrs wrote: > So, I thought it would nice to use a Multia as a wireless machine, > after all, it does have PCMCIA ports... > > My first challenge was that it wouldn't boot. It would startup and > get to the cursor and then hang. A new battery was suggested. Rather > than use the Rayovac 840, I elected to get a 3 AAA cell holder from > Digikey. I replaced it and watched. Sure enough, it started to boot > and then put characters on the screen and hung. I powered it off and > on and it got further and then hung. Now it won't get that far at all > and complains (via 14 LED flashes) that the DRAM is bad. I removed 2 > and that didn't work so swapped them and that didn't work. > > It would make a nice doorstop, but otherwise what are the suggestions? Is it possible that something went amiss when you opened/disassembled it? Also, isn't the original CMOS battery 3.6V? If so, 3xAAA is 4.5V which may have zapped something. Even at best, these were fussy, flakey little boxes with chronic thermal issues. Steve -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 14:54:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:54:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2E1ECC.2050006@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 12, 11 04:36:12 pm Message-ID: > > Alas one flexowriter does not make a 'collection' :-) > > Sad, it is. What model do you have? ALas I don't know :-( I know where the machine is -- right next to the 370/E [1] but I can't get to it in a hurry... What I can rememebr is that it has the paper tape punch and reader. It also has quite a few relays i nthe unit behind the carriage, and the interface connector on the back (I do have the jumper plug in there). I also know it's not ASCII,or anything close. There are separate codes (punched on the tape) for shift-to-upper-case and shift-to-lower-case. The code punched by a particualr key is not changed when you shift siad key. And I am pretty suere it's an 8 level tape, it's not typesetter tape or anything like that. [1] Despite the number, this is not an IBM machine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:20:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110112214211.GA99730@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jan 12, 11 04:42:11 pm Message-ID: > > Over here, the common Teletype (meaning something made by Teletype Corp) > > is the model 33. Most of the 5 level machines you get here are Creeds. Inicndetally, The Teletype Model 33 appears as a 'Data Dynamics' machine over here too. it's the standard typing unit, punch, keyboard and reader with a Data Dynamics casing and call control unit. At least one version has an RS232 (as opposed to current loop) interface. > > I have seen a Creed and knew they were much more common over in the UK, > but they are rare. Are they? At one time the Creed 7 in one of its versions was very common as an amateur RTTY machine. The Creed 444 is not uncommon either. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:23:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:23:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2DC8C2.11176.1334F63@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 12, 11 03:29:06 pm Message-ID: > > Why would an ASR33 motor emit ozone? > > I did have, years ago, a Model 14 and I seem to recall that the motor > may have been centrifugal-start, rather than capacitor start. So > there would have been a small arc when starting, but that's it. At least one of the Model 33 motors had a current-operated starter relay which disconnected the starting winding when the motot got going. I suppose you'd get a small arc at its contacts when you turned the machine on. But I doubt it would produce enough ozone to smell. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 14:57:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:57:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2E1F0A.2080904@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 12, 11 04:37:14 pm Message-ID: > Mine has an induction motor. There are contacts in the "hardware > UART", of course, but is there enough current flowing through that You mean the 'mechanical UAT' :-). There are no contacts in the receiver section. > circuit to result in anything more than the most insignificant of > arcing? If memory serves that's right in the 20mA loop. It is. The transmitter loop consists of the distributor disk, nad hte keyboard or reader contacts. No electronics. Of course the 20mA loop could be driven by a fialry high voltage, and could hkave an indcutive load (e.g. a telegraph relay), which could cause some sparking But that seems unlikely in a computer applciation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:29:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:29:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2E5688.1000306@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 13, 11 01:34:00 am Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > Is there a defined standard as to when the READY output on a > Shugart-type disc drive should go active? Not that I a maware of. Are there any standards for anything on that interface :-) > > I'm (slowly!) working through the rebuild of one of the Amstrad drives > (an EME231 I know to have working mechanical components, potentially > good heads, and a fried control board), and I'm stuck on deciding how to > deal with the READY output. > > My initial thought was to hold it inactive until a few INDEX pulses have > passed, and the motor speed was within 5% of 'ideal' speed. The plan was > to use a 32kHz oscillator and a 4040 counter to get a several-Hz signal, > then rig up some logic to check that the disc speed was OK, and after a > few valid index cycles enable the drive. > > Then I started wondering... am I over-engineering this? Would waiting > for a couple of full disc rotations be enough to reliably generate a > READY signal? I think that's massively over-engineered :-). Most drives just waited for a couple of index pulses after motor-on which was enough time for the thing to get up to speed. > > Irony is that the read-amp will probably be the easiest part of the > whole system... I've got a Motorola appnote which basically says "if > you're using a data rate of X and a rotation speed of Y, these > parameters will work" -- X and Y being the two parameters the Amstrad That is nto too suprising. Amstrad may have done a lot of odd things, but these drives did turn at 300 rpm and use the standard data rate. > drive uses... That just leaves the write amp and erase logic to design > (and maybe a 'write lockout' jumper). I asusme you've looked at some old drive schematics. The write circuit is normally pretty simple, a divide-by-2 D-type clocked from the WD signal and reset by WG (to get a consistent starring phase when writing), a couple of traisnstors to drive the heads and a current sink. And a bit of enable logic. Often the transistors were part of a tranistor array chip. Many older 5.25" drives (and 8" ones) didn't use a microcontroller at all. it was all SSI/MSI chips. So it's fairly easy to work out what's going on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:33:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:33:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2E01E2.7486.2127676@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 12, 11 07:32:50 pm Message-ID: > > On 12 Jan 2011 at 19:00, dwight elvey wrote: > > > I believe all 3.5 inch drives without DiskReady will block > > both the read data and the index until the drive is considered > > to be ready. > > I don't know about the 3" drives; they're pretty primitive. And I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot better than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to move the hean. ARGH! > they're belt-driven, which belt is one of the most frequently-failing > parts on these old drives. Not all 3" drives are belt driven, altough I think the Amstrad ones we're discussing are. Any particualr reason why the belt i na 3" drive would be more likely to fail than that in a 5.25" or 8" drive (both of which were commonly belt-driven)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:35:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:35:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2E0290.10928.2151B76@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 12, 11 07:35:44 pm Message-ID: > > Anent the issue of microcontrollers vs. analogue solutions, there's > an article that doesn't say much in ED today: > > http://bit.ly/gDcDx1 As you said, pretty much content-free. I think it can be sumarised by 'The best design depends on the applciation, the designer's skills and the contents of the junk box' :-) Something which is hard to disagree with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:39:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:39:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Single Head HDDs In-Reply-To: <682A4C97E2FA45BD83F2AAB779EF5F41@RosemarysPC> from "Billy Pettit" at Jan 12, 11 10:11:11 pm Message-ID: > > Couldn't find original sender: > > > Except for a few very odd ones (e.g. hard drives which record = > analagoue > > singals such as analogue video [1]) every hard disk I've worked on has > > used both sides of all platters for something. Maybe not user data > > storage (for excample, it may contain servo information only), but = > there > > will be a head on it. > > Because of the enormous pressure to reduce cost, single headed drives = > are very common. And have been for as long as I've been in the HDD = > industry. For example, current technology is 667 or 750 GB per platter = > with 1TB/platter due in next 12 months. Yet there is a demand for 250, = > 300 or 500 GB drives for ultra low cost drives. Especially in the = > consumer electronics market - for example, DVRs and security systems. > > Taking out the cost of one head can save $2.50 to $5.00 of manufacturing = > cost. That is a big chunk of the $25 manufacturing cost typical of the = > very low end drives. > > Servo data has been embedded in the data surface for many many years. = > Most current drives generate their own servo information. Current = > drives even have a different tpi for the servo versus the data track, = > even though they are on the same surface. > > Billy Pettit > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 13 15:43:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:43:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <09992C8CEDB94CE5879403E8B22D5A44@RODSDEVSYSTEM> from "Rod Smallwood" at Jan 13, 11 08:45:01 am Message-ID: > > > > That=92s funny I worked on Creed teleprinters in the 1970's and we = > always > referred to them as five unit Baudot. The tape was narrower than the ASR = The original Baudot code, as used on the baudot Quadruplex, was differnet to the 5 unit code used by Creeds, etc in the 1970s... Just as the code used for amateur CW operation (and elsewhere) is most definitely not the original Morse code. > 33 > and had five holes plus a sprocket hole. Yes, I wil agreethat said machines used a 5 unit code, and the tape is as you described. AFAIK the hole diameters and spacing is the same on this 5 level tape and on the more common 8-level tape used on computers. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 13 16:32:31 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:32:31 -0700 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> References: <082a01cbb21a$f377a730$da66f590$@sudbrink@verizon.net>, <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: In article <4D2F66F8.9060505 at aerodesic.com>, Gary Oliver writes: > I managed to snag an SPD a few years ago - a little dirty, but > everything functions. Also have a full schematic for the beast if > anyone is interested... > (http://mycroftxxx.com/~go/Flexowriter_Schematic.ps.bz2) Uncompressed, > it's about 680mbytes. (Al Kossow: copy if you want to archive on > bitsavers) It was originally scanned as a color .tif, which explains > it's size. Apparently, this is a single page, which I distilled into a 2 MB PDF. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 13 16:34:41 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:34:41 -0700 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Anyone have specific information on what secret codes are needed to order > > exact replacements? > > Can you send a picture of your specific need? I have almost a complete > run of Radio Masters, and I am pretty sure Cannon had a good sized > section in each catalog. This one? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 16:44:22 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 16:44:22 -0600 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2F8046.70205@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 12 Jan 2011 at 19:00, dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> I believe all 3.5 inch drives without DiskReady will block >>> both the read data and the index until the drive is considered >>> to be ready. >> I don't know about the 3" drives; they're pretty primitive. And > > I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot better > than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to > move the hean. ARGH! Indeed - I seem to remember the one in my Apple /// would occasionally fail when the head positioner would fall out of the grooved disk. > Not all 3" drives are belt driven, altough I think the Amstrad ones we're > discussing are. > > Any particualr reason why the belt i na 3" drive would be more likely to > fail than that in a 5.25" or 8" drive (both of which were commonly > belt-driven)? I think the belts aren't quite as tall in the 3" drives as they are in 5.25" and 8" ones, though - I wonder if they're more prone to stretching or breaking? (whether they're typically under more stress at start-up or not too, I'm not sure) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 13 16:57:17 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 17:57:17 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2F834D.8070500@neurotica.com> On 1/13/11 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Mine has an induction motor. There are contacts in the "hardware >> UART", of course, but is there enough current flowing through that > > You mean the 'mechanical UAT' :-). There are no contacts in the receiver > section. Ah, yes. :-) I'm still fascinated by that setup after all these years...My first exposures to serial<->parallel conversion were the AY-5-1013 and the wonderful Z80 SIO. >> circuit to result in anything more than the most insignificant of >> arcing? If memory serves that's right in the 20mA loop. > > It is. The transmitter loop consists of the distributor disk, nad hte > keyboard or reader contacts. No electronics. > > Of course the 20mA loop could be driven by a fialry high voltage, and > could hkave an indcutive load (e.g. a telegraph relay), which could cause > some sparking But that seems unlikely in a computer applciation. Yes. But I suppose it's possible. Long wires might provide enough inductance. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 13 17:43:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:43:38 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2F610F.4010106@neurotica.com> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <4D2EEAE6.20015.921F78@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D2F610F.4010106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D2F1DAA.17675.1586D66@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 15:31, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are they really 5-level code?? Yup, uppercase only with limited punctuation. 1 start, 5 data, 1.5 stop at 45.5 bps, IIRC. That low speed and 5 bits creates problems for PC TDD TTY emulators. The most popular one, PCTTY for Windows, uses a novel approach to handle it: http://www.pctty.com/ Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 13 17:45:49 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:45:49 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2E01E2.7486.2127676@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 12, 11 07:32:50 pm, Message-ID: <4D2F1E2D.7219.15A6AAD@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 21:33, Tony Duell wrote: > Not all 3" drives are belt driven, altough I think the Amstrad ones > we're discussing are. > > Any particualr reason why the belt i na 3" drive would be more likely > to fail than that in a 5.25" or 8" drive (both of which were commonly > belt-driven)? I don't know enough about the composition of the belt. But I've got plenty of 8" drives with their original belts running just fine, but I haven't seen a single 3" drive from a Joyce that didn't have a failed belt somewhere in its history. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 13 17:46:50 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:46:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at thesame time) In-Reply-To: from Teo Zenios at "Jan 13, 11 03:10:13 pm" Message-ID: <201101132346.p0DNkoIA011480@floodgap.com> > > Could I run these all at the same time in my trusty Macintosh IIfx? > > > > The answer: Yes. (warning, 1600x1200 image): > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/random/5OS.png THAT IS AWESOME. Well done! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Madness takes its toll. Have exact change ready. --------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 13 17:47:31 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:47:31 -0800 Subject: On the Beeb, EDSAC to be rebuilt Message-ID: <4D2F1E93.28676.15BFB50@cclist.sydex.com> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-12181153 I don't know how real it is yet, but it's a start. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 13 19:57:03 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 01:57:03 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2FAD6F.70102@philpem.me.uk> On 13/01/11 21:33, Tony Duell wrote: > I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot better > than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to > move the hean. ARGH! Sounds a bit like the helicoid in a camera lens... > Not all 3" drives are belt driven, altough I think the Amstrad ones we're > discussing are. Indeed they are. Cheap cassette motor tied to an even cheaper thin plastic "flywheel" by means of a shoddy little drive belt. On the plus side it's a fairly standard cassette drive belt so fairly easy to replace... The worst part about them is that damn flywheel. Most 3.5in drives I've seen use a honking great slab of heavy metal as a combined flywheel / rotor (the ring magnets for the brushless motor are inside). There's enough weight on one of those to smooth out any reasonable level of speed variation... > Any particualr reason why the belt i na 3" drive would be more likely to > fail than that in a 5.25" or 8" drive (both of which were commonly > belt-driven)? In the case of the Amstrad drives? Because they're cheaply-made piles of junk? :P -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jan 13 20:08:19 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:08:19 -0600 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/13/2011 at 10:23AM -0500), Dave McGuire wrote: > On 1/13/11 9:32 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> ? There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of >> ? the ITA2 five-level code. >> ? Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until >> ? the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. >> >> That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really >> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. > > Heh, or EIA-232D vs. RS-232. (RS == "Recommended Standard") You know, that RS-232 that comes straight out of a microcontroller's UART at 3.3v or 1.8v swings... that RS-232. -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jan 13 20:12:17 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:12:17 -0600 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net> <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20110114021217.GG22794@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/13/2011 at 01:02PM -0600), John Foust wrote: > > The ham radio people tend to look at the ASR-33 as a light-weight junk > teletype for amateurs. They generally tried to get rid of them, until > they figured out recently that they'll fetch crazy prices from > classic computer collectors, especially if they're maintained and working. I'm really conflicted because I am one of _those_ ham radio people and a classic computer collector and I've restored two ASR-33 in the past year... so that they are tuned up and adjusted to factory specs... internally as clean as new and run as smooth as can be-- and I am going to keep them ;-) Chris N0JCF -- Chris Elmquist From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 13 20:29:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:29:19 -0500 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D2FB4FF.6080607@neurotica.com> On 1/13/11 9:08 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Heh, or EIA-232D vs. RS-232. (RS == "Recommended Standard") > > You know, that RS-232 that comes straight out of a microcontroller's > UART at 3.3v or 1.8v swings... that RS-232. ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 13 21:04:01 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 19:04:01 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4D2FBD21.8080009@brouhaha.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > You know, that RS-232 that comes straight out of a microcontroller's > UART at 3.3v or 1.8v swings... that RS-232. Cool! That means I can connect it directly to my ASR33! From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Thu Jan 13 22:14:18 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:14:18 -0600 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D2FCD9A.4080604@tx.rr.com> On 1/12/2011 6:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > Short on space, power, and cooling? Not a problem with this IBM 1401 > Data Center: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 > > (I have no connection with this seller or listing) > That's quite interesting. Any one have any idea what that is to the left of the 1402? I think the seller's description calls it a card reader, but I don't recall ever seeing one. There was a 1406 memory expansion unit about that size, but I don't remember it having quite that look. Also, I don't remember the 1407 (typewriter console thingy) having that control panel on the right side. Of course, these models may have been created before the actual hardware design was complete. BTW, 729 tape drives were never "glued together" like those either IMHO. I've no idea what the 3 unmarked boxes behind the tape drives are either. Anyone? Later, Charlie C. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 22:43:01 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 23:43:01 -0500 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center In-Reply-To: <4D2FCD9A.4080604@tx.rr.com> References: <4D2FCD9A.4080604@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: > I've no idea what the 3 unmarked boxes behind the tape drives are either. > ?Anyone? The big things look more 7090ish. -- Will From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jan 13 23:31:56 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 05:31:56 -0000 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20110112214211.GA99730@night.db.net> from "Diane Bruce" at Jan12, 11 04:42:11 pm Message-ID: ? Did somebody say Data Dynamics? Well them I knew well. Whilst at DEC I used to supply them with LA36 print mechanics and logic boards, 500 at a time. They added their own metalwork and I think keyboard. Some were fitted?with Facit tape punches and readers. It made a nice 30cps printing terminal. I would love to get my hands on one those just for old times sake. They had a factory in Hayes. The company was run by a couple of old guys called Tindall and Stabler. This would have been around 1975/76 Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 13 January 2011 21:21 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Teletype Tales Part 3 > > Over here, the common Teletype (meaning something made by Teletype Corp) > > is the model 33. Most of the 5 level machines you get here are Creeds. Inicndetally, The Teletype Model 33 appears as a 'Data Dynamics' machine over here too. it's the standard typing unit, punch, keyboard and reader with a Data Dynamics casing and call control unit. At least one version has an RS232 (as opposed to current loop) interface. > > I have seen a Creed and knew they were much more common over in the UK, > but they are rare. Are they? At one time the Creed 7 in one of its versions was very common as an amateur RTTY machine. The Creed 444 is not uncommon either. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 13 23:53:20 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 21:53:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2F610F.4010106@neurotica.com> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <20110112153605.GB93575@night.db.net>, <201101131903.p0DJ30Ui032409@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D2EEAE6.20015.921F78@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F610F.4010106@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110113214739.I73642@shell.lmi.net> > > Isn't there quite a lot of old 5 level gear (TTY and simple one-line > > keyboard-displays) around for TDD (for the deaf)? > > I'm surprised that some of these compact terminals haven't been > > hacked into service for use on vintage computer gear. On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > Are they really 5-level code?? yes. with acoustic couplers! Don't wait too long - almost everybody is switching to "texting" or at least email. They won't be around much longer. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 14 00:52:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:52:32 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110113214739.I73642@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net>, <4D2F610F.4010106@neurotica.com>, <20110113214739.I73642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D2F8230.22155.2E119E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 21:53, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > Isn't there quite a lot of old 5 level gear (TTY and simple > > > one-line keyboard-displays) around for TDD (for the deaf)? I'm > > > surprised that some of these compact terminals haven't been hacked > > > into service for use on vintage computer gear. > > On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Are they really 5-level code?? > > yes. > > with acoustic couplers! > > Don't wait too long - almost everybody is switching to "texting" or at > least email. They won't be around much longer. Some even have small printers for logging the conversation. There's a Ultratech TDDS for $13.99 BIN on eBay. Battery or AC adapter. Item 130461437516. There's an Ultratech Superprint TDDS for $29.99 with free shipping: 320596936540. Could be fun to play around with. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 14 00:59:57 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 22:59:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2FAD6F.70102@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D2FAD6F.70102@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110113225110.P73642@shell.lmi.net> > > I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot better > > than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to > > move the hean. ARGH! On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Sounds a bit like the helicoid in a camera lens... Flat disc with a spiral, NOT a helix. Used in the Shugart SA400. Just like a primitive music storage system that was called a "record". From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 13 09:34:31 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:34:31 +0000 (WET) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? Message-ID: <01NWKVSKVNS2000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> > >My initial thought was to hold it inactive until a few INDEX pulses have >passed, and the motor speed was within 5% of 'ideal' speed. The plan was >to use a 32kHz oscillator and a 4040 counter to get a several-Hz signal, >then rig up some logic to check that the disc speed was OK, and after a >few valid index cycles enable the drive. > The BBC Micro internally generates the ready signal for the 8271 controller from index, drive select and the 8MHz clock using a 74LS393, 4020 and 4013. I figured out how the circuit works once and my head still hurts. As far as I remember, it works like your description above and if an index pulse is a few percent later than expected, it deasserts ready. This was designed for 5.25in floppies and worked fine with early 3.5in drives. However a problem arose with more recent 3.5in drives. It seems that instead of requiring a particular time between step pulses, these drives allow the controller to step as fast as it likes and they signal the controller that the heads have not yet reached the required location by suppressing index until they do. The circuitry in the BBC notices the lack of index and drops the ready signal to the 8271 resulting in a "drive not ready" error when stepping by more than a couple of tracks (er, I mean cylinders) when using one of these drives. It seems the lessons are firstly that the designers of the BBC micro did not reckon they could rely on getting a good ready signal from the drive and secondly, no matter how you try to be clever, something will later come along to mess up your cunning plan. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 13 09:52:46 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:52:46 +0000 (WET) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? Message-ID: <01NWKW2ZOT0I000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> > >> The datacenter was always at 62 degree's, after working 4-5 hours in >> there, your knuckles started to stiffen up and you'd feel the cold from >> the floor come up into your shins... ah.... good times, good times :-) I >> loved the quietness, all you heard was the sounds of fans whirling away, >> it was a deafening kind of quiet background noise, I miss that. > > It really is a good feeling. Only true geeks seem to appreciate it, >though. > My last boss, who was from the sales end of the organisation occasionally had to help me move stuff in our data centre. He didn't mind the heavy lifting but he really hated being in the place. It didn't bother me at all, especially if the office was hot and sticky. What I miss is from 20 years ago, in a different place, the 400Hz drone of power supplies in equipment connected to a motor-generator set. Never mind the video - does anyone have a sound recording of that? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 14:12:08 2011 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:12:08 -0500 Subject: Flakey Multia Message-ID: So, I thought it would nice to use a Multia as a wireless machine, after all, it does have PCMCIA ports... My first challenge was that it wouldn't boot. It would startup and get to the cursor and then hang. A new battery was suggested. Rather than use the Rayovac 840, I elected to get a 3 AAA cell holder from Digikey. I replaced it and watched. Sure enough, it started to boot and then put characters on the screen and hung. I powered it off and on and it got further and then hung. Now it won't get that far at all and complains (via 14 LED flashes) that the DRAM is bad. I removed 2 and that didn't work so swapped them and that didn't work. It would make a nice doorstop, but otherwise what are the suggestions? From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jan 13 14:33:18 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:33:18 +0000 (WET) Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? Message-ID: <01NWL67C5P0Y000DM2@beyondthepale.ie> > >Anyway, some doofus managed to string fiber through the cabinet (one >of the 9309 style cabinets, common with older big AS/400s and >RS/6000s). For some reason, the decommissioned machine had to be >removed during the day, but we were forbidden to touch the FDDI >outside a 3 AM maintenance window. Several blades later... > >I'll tell you - IBM uses good steel. > Where did the dust end up? On one memorable occasion, when we requested cable access between two of our adjacent cabs, the data centre tech (without telling anyone) took an angle grinder to the cab walls and showered our running equipment with fine steel dust. Any mystery failures after that were blamed on dust getting sucked in by fans and deposited on pcbs. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From go at ao-cs.com Thu Jan 13 17:47:23 2011 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 15:47:23 -0800 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> Message-ID: <4D2F8F0B.3030001@ao-cs.com> Those are the connectors. I've searched for the numbers on mine throughout the Cannon selection mechanism and have never come up with anything that fits. Cannon's catalogs have always been rather impenetrable to me... Especially with older 'lega -Gary On 01/13/2011 02:34 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > William Donzelli writes: > > >>> Anyone have specific information on what secret codes are needed to order >>> exact replacements? >>> >> Can you send a picture of your specific need? I have almost a complete >> run of Radio Masters, and I am pretty sure Cannon had a good sized >> section in each catalog. >> > This one? > > From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Jan 13 17:55:31 2011 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 18:55:31 -0500 Subject: Computer History Museum, et.al. Message-ID: Technology news of two days ago spoke of the Computer History Museum(a past visitor) in Mountainview, CA(Silicon Valley) having a 2000 year timeline and display. I hadn't realized computers have been around for 2000 years! Nevertheless, computer/electronic newsletters such as this should relish in how people/orgaization(s)/institution(s) are attempting to preserve computings past for all, technophiles and technophobes. Maybe this will give encouragement to others who are working diligently, albeit on a smaller scale, on attempts to preserve one little aspect of computing, for example the Computer Museum of Nova Scotia - the Kenbek machine. Compute on! Murray-- From axelsson at acc.umu.se Thu Jan 13 20:39:36 2011 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 03:39:36 +0100 Subject: Xerox 860 IPS system on eBay In-Reply-To: <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D26B020.8020200@mail.msu.edu> <4D26C87A.3050306@atarimuseum.com> <4D273D7B.6040500@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D2FB768.1050201@acc.umu.se> Thanks for bringing that auction up. That answered a question I've had for a while. I got a keyboard together with some other stuff a while ago and I had no idea of where it came from... but now I do. If anyone is interested in it, let me know. I don't have anything else than the keyboard and it isn't related to anything I collect. I'm located in Ume?, Sweden. /G?ran Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > That is VERY COOL !!! :-) > > I hope someone from the list picks this up and brings it to a VCF > show, I'd love to see it working... > > That also reminds me, I have a couple of Xerox 6085's "Daybreak" > systems I bought a few years back that I just don't have the free time > to give attention to and devote desk space for. Anyone interested > in them (trade/sale) ? Just the main CPU boxes, no monitors or > keyboards, though I found a connection in TN that has a nice stockpile > of spare monitors and keyboards, but just never found the chance/time > to pursue. > > Email me off-list if interested. > > > Curt > > > Chris Halarewich wrote: >> Copied from digibarn >> >> "*Look carefully at the right side of the keyboard. That round circle >> is a >> CAT -- a touch sensitive pad that worked like a mouse"* >> *Chris* >> >> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Curt @ Atari Museum >> wrote: >> >> >>> What is that open circle area on the far right side of the keyboard?! >>> >>> Don't tell me that its some kind of touchpad system or perhaps a pen >>> input >>> area? Never seen a kb like that before. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark Davidson wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 10:18 PM, Josh Dersch >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Not my auction, but looks pretty danged neat. Price isn't too >>>>> bad. eBay >>>>> Item 220721080577. >>>>> >>>>> Looks cool, wish I lived a little closer :). >>>>> >>>>> - Josh >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> No kidding... I live close enough, but I don't have $200 and my >>>> significant other would have a major fit. :) >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> > From robgarn at mac.com Thu Jan 13 22:24:22 2011 From: robgarn at mac.com (Robert Garner) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 20:24:22 -0800 Subject: IBM 1401 Data Center model on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C491607-8EB0-4997-8C52-9B8F6ABC0925@mac.com> Regarding the charming wood/metal scale model of a "1401 Data Center" on eBay, in addition to the 3 1401 Central Processing Units, many of the models are actually for an IBM 7070: main frame cabinets, console (7150), and card reader (7500). As a 1401 system, two of the 1401 CPUs are missing their mainspring! ;-) The IBM 1402, in addition to reading and punching cards, also delivers AC and DC power to the 1401 CPU, 1403 printer, and 729 tape string. Technically, the model system is missing two 1402s. Any large 1401 system would also likely have 1406 extended memory units (12,000 characters). I suspect many 7070s also had RAMAC/disk storage units (7300), as did some 1401 systems (1405, 20 MB). For info and pictures about our two operational tape-based 1401 systems at the Computer History Museum(CHM), restored by a grand team of retired IBM CE's, checkout: http://ibm-1401.info/ - Robert p.s. The CHM just opened to the public its new marvelous Revolution exhibit! p.p.s. For mounting SMS logic boards, the 7000-series main frame cabinets used large "Rolygon" sliding gates, while the 1401 used smaller pivoting gate "Cube" packaging. On Jan 13, 2011, at 10:00 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:05:08 -0800 > From: Brent Hilpert > Subject: Re: IBM 1401 Data Center > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <35e182fb8e08dd69eadb310d14d7a288 at cs.ubc.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On 2011 Jan 12, at 7:35 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Okay, somebody needs to pick that up, either Al for the CHM or Sellam >> or Evan.... put that on display, that is just too damned cool !!! >> > There have been links for sales of sets like this mentioned on the list > previously but I think they were folded cardboard, not the detailed > wood and metal of this set. > > The ebay page linked to this: > http://ibmcollectables.com/360holocaust.html > Great story, Bob. (.. now we know who to blame) > > And speaking therein of 360 front panels: > ebay 150541712482 > IBM 360/50 front panel goes for $5600. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2011 22:54:12 -0600 > From: Jason T > Subject: Re: IBM 1401 Data Center > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> On 1/12/11 7:10 PM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> >>> Short on space, power, and cooling? ?Not a problem with this IBM 1401 >>> Data Center: >>> >>> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190490102075 >>> >>> (I have no connection with this seller or listing) > > Awesome - I saw a set like this many years ago (let's say mid-90s) in > the window of an "antiques" (junk) store in St. Charles, IL. I think > they wanted around $250 for it, and those were the days I was scraping > together $5 for meals, so it wasn't going to happen for me. I always > assumed it was a salesman's kit, for helping to lay our datacenters > (maybe it came with a big sheet of scaled grid paper to represent > floor tiles?) > > Well, I'll be bidding... > > -j > ------------------------------ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 14 01:28:28 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2011 23:28:28 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <20110113225110.P73642@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D2FAD6F.70102@philpem.me.uk> <20110113225110.P73642@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <984587de1f78b1efe85e0ee12ddd425c@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 13, at 10:59 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot >>> better >>> than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to >>> move the hean. ARGH! > > On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Sounds a bit like the helicoid in a camera lens... > > Flat disc with a spiral, NOT a helix. Used in the Shugart SA400. Just > like a primitive music storage system that was called a "record". > Spiral in the disc drive, but I think Philip is drawing an analogy to the mechanism in digital cameras that moves the lens in and out and does the zoom. These are concentric cylinders with pins in one cylinder riding in helical grooves in an adjacent cylinder. I think the point is in both cases the objective is to transform rotational motion (easy to generate with a small motor) into linear motion (arguably more difficult to generate directly). Mathematically, I think a helix and spiral can be shown to be topologically equivalent, at least as long there is a hole in the center of the disc with the spiral (imagine expanding the hole, folding the surface of the disc out to become the cylinder wall: one side of the disc becomes the outside of the cylinder, the other side becomes the inside, and the spiral turns into a helix). (Fixed a digital camera for a friend awhile ago which had been dropped with the lens extended. Had to be disassmebled extensively, to find one of the guide pins had been knocked out and was jammed between the cylinder walls.) From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 14 03:59:13 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:59:13 +0100 (CET) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. > > Heh, or EIA-232D vs. RS-232. (RS == "Recommended Standard") Or V.24 vs. (whatever)-232... E.g. the ASR33 is not RS-232 but definitely V.24; the same applies to a DE9 PC "serial port". Christian From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 14 05:23:29 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 03:23:29 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D303231.6050803@brouhaha.com> Christian Corti wrote: > E.g. the ASR33 is not RS-232 but definitely V.24; The Teletype Model 33 ASR may or may not meet V.24, depending on how it is wired. There are a *lot* of different ways to wire it. > the same applies to a DE9 PC "serial port". The DE9 PC serial port meets the EIA/TIA-232 standard electrical characteristics (if the board is designed properly), and TIA-574 standard connector. From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 06:10:21 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 07:10:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2F8046.70205@gmail.com> References: <4D2F8046.70205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> On 12 Jan 2011 at 19:00, dwight elvey wrote: >>> >>>> I believe all 3.5 inch drives without DiskReady will block >>>> both the read data and the index until the drive is considered >>>> to be ready. >>> I don't know about the 3" drives; they're pretty primitive. And >> >> I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot better >> than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to move >> the hean. ARGH! > > Indeed - I seem to remember the one in my Apple /// would occasionally fail > when the head positioner would fall out of the grooved disk. That's why the cover is never fastened to my Northstar Horizon. Head arm has a steel ball under tension that keeps walking out of the groove on the cam. -- From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Jan 14 07:13:18 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 08:13:18 -0500 Subject: Computer History Museum, et.al. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D304BEE.2050800@atarimuseum.com> Well, look at the Abacus, a form of "computer".... The Mesopotamians are believed to be the first civilization to have used abacuses, between around 2700-2300 BC. Talk about old! :-) Curt Murray McCullough wrote: > Technology news of two days ago spoke of the Computer History Museum(a > past visitor) in Mountainview, CA(Silicon Valley) having a 2000 year > timeline and display. I hadn't realized computers have been around for > 2000 years! Nevertheless, computer/electronic newsletters such as this > should relish in how people/orgaization(s)/institution(s) are > attempting to preserve computings past for all, technophiles and > technophobes. Maybe this will give encouragement to others who are > working diligently, albeit on a smaller scale, on attempts to preserve > one little aspect of computing, for example the Computer Museum of > Nova Scotia - the Kenbek machine. > > Compute on! > > Murray-- > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jan 14 08:11:43 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:11:43 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D30599F.9010907@philpem.me.uk> On 13/01/11 21:29, Tony Duell wrote: >> Is there a defined standard as to when the READY output on a >> Shugart-type disc drive should go active? > > Not that I a maware of. Are there any standards for anything on that > interface :-) Not really... other than "read data is a 1us pulse every time there's a transition" and similar stuff like that. It's the minutiae that cause the trouble. >> Then I started wondering... am I over-engineering this? Would waiting >> for a couple of full disc rotations be enough to reliably generate a >> READY signal? > > I think that's massively over-engineered :-). Most drives just waited for > a couple of index pulses after motor-on which was enough time for the > thing to get up to speed. Hmm, fair enough. Doing it that way gets rid of a 555 timer, or a binary counter on the CPLD and a 32kHz crystal oscillator. > That is nto too suprising. Amstrad may have done a lot of odd things, but > these drives did turn at 300 rpm and use the standard data rate. Never a bad thing :) > I asusme you've looked at some old drive schematics. The write circuit is > normally pretty simple, a divide-by-2 D-type clocked from the WD signal > and reset by WG (to get a consistent starring phase when writing), That's the easy part :) > a couple of traisnstors to drive the heads and a current sink. And a bit of > enable logic. Often the transistors were part of a tranistor array chip. Hm, I don't think I have any discrete transistor array chips (unless the ULN2003 and 2803 High Current Darlington Arrays count).. and the only transistors I have any great number of are BC857s (BC547s in SOT23 surface mount packages). The problem I'm trying to figure out is: how much current do I need to put through the head, and how much current did the Amstrad board put through it? I'd rather like to avoid overloading the head -- permanently magnetising or frying it would not be a good start. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 14 09:09:05 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:09:05 -0500 Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) Message-ID: Eric wrote: >>> There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of >>> the ITA2 five-level code. >>> Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until >>> the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. Tim wrote: >> That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really >> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. Eric wrote: > No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot code used significantly > different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and > an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion. > ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations > and will generally interoperate reasonably well. I'm not disagreeing that the academically correct term is ITA #2. (Interestingly most web page hits today call it "ITA 2" or "ITA2" but the 70's and earlier books call it "ITA #2" when they are being pedantic.) I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although technically incorrect. Sort of like when I know the people who used and maintained what they called a 11/74, and then I see folks here telling me that no, it's really A 11/70MP :-). Yeah, in a certain aspect that may be what the paperwork called it. But really everybody called it the 11/74. When I'm told that the academically correct word for something, is different than what everyone actually called it at the time, and I see Wikipedia etc. going for academically correct rather than "actual working term", it sometimes feels like history that I lived is being redefined underneath me by some sort of pedantic streak. Another recent example of a different character set being redefined underneath Me: On Wikipedia, the morse code for -...- is defined as "double dash" with a Possible keyboard equivalent of "equals sign", something I never heard till recently. I called it "BT" with a bar Over top for most of half a century now. I don't doubt that some CCITT standard Called it double dash in the past, just that me and the guys I know who use Morse every day, never called it that. This isn't new to me. I remember getting involved in altmode vs escape key arguments In the distant past. I always called it altmode, what right does anyone else Have to call it escape? :-))))). Big smileys, because I discovered that three Different ASCII codes (0174, 0175 and 033) were being used and I didn't know until Much much later. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 14 09:22:24 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 08:22:24 -0700 Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Shoppa, Tim" writes: > I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level > TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although > technically incorrect. Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up here occasionally. Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9. But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are talking about. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 09:38:56 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:38:56 -0500 Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up here occasionally. > Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9. > But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are > talking about. It is just a way for some people to mouth off. And the thing is that even they are not using the absolute correct nomenclature, as defined by the official MIL STD. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 09:41:12 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:41:12 -0500 Subject: Video's of inside of Compuserve? In-Reply-To: <01NWKW2ZOT0I000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01NWKW2ZOT0I000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > What I miss is from 20 years ago, in a different place, the 400Hz drone of > power supplies in equipment connected to a motor-generator set. Never mind > the video - does anyone have a sound recording of that? Give me a couple of years, and you can experience it first hand (first ear?). -- Will From db at db.net Fri Jan 14 09:41:50 2011 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:41:50 -0500 Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110114154150.GB45868@night.db.net> On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 08:22:24AM -0700, Richard wrote: > > In article , > "Shoppa, Tim" writes: > > > I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level > > TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although > > technically incorrect. > > Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up here occasionally. > Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9. > But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are > talking about. The funniest example I saw of that was in the Radio Amateurs of Canada (RAC) magazine 'The Canadian Amateur' (TCA). One article was the pedantic discussion of shell sizes vs. pin counts and hence DB-9 should be a DE-9, the other article was with a schematic showing a DB-9. I was amused. - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 09:45:58 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:45:58 -0500 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: <4D2F8F0B.3030001@ao-cs.com> References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> <4D2F8F0B.3030001@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: > Those are the connectors. ?I've searched for the numbers on mine > throughout the Cannon selection mechanism and have never come > up with anything that fits. ?Cannon's catalogs have always been > rather impenetrable to me... ?Especially with older 'lega When I get back home, I will check my catalogs. It is possible that the insert is a custom configuration. The K number certainly looks Cannon, but does sort of small custom. Can you tell me the ID of the metal shell? Cannon, and most other "round shell military connector" makers, have different sized shells with the same pin configuration. Making custom inserts is possible with a little effort. -- Will From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Fri Jan 14 09:47:56 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 07:47:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <737552.34684.qm@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> How about "low density" floppy disks? (ducks and runs) ________________________________ From: "Shoppa, Tim" To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 9:09:05 AM Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) Eric wrote: >>> There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant of >>> the ITA2 five-level code. >>> Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until >>> the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. Tim wrote: >> That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, we're all really >> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. Eric wrote: > No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot code used significantly > different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and > an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion. > ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations > and will generally interoperate reasonably well. I'm not disagreeing that the academically correct term is ITA #2. (Interestingly most web page hits today call it "ITA 2" or "ITA2" but the 70's and earlier books call it "ITA #2" when they are being pedantic.) I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although technically incorrect. Sort of like when I know the people who used and maintained what they called a 11/74, and then I see folks here telling me that no, it's really A 11/70MP :-). Yeah, in a certain aspect that may be what the paperwork called it. But really everybody called it the 11/74. When I'm told that the academically correct word for something, is different than what everyone actually called it at the time, and I see Wikipedia etc. going for academically correct rather than "actual working term", it sometimes feels like history that I lived is being redefined underneath me by some sort of pedantic streak. Another recent example of a different character set being redefined underneath Me: On Wikipedia, the morse code for -...- is defined as "double dash" with a Possible keyboard equivalent of "equals sign", something I never heard till recently. I called it "BT" with a bar Over top for most of half a century now. I don't doubt that some CCITT standard Called it double dash in the past, just that me and the guys I know who use Morse every day, never called it that. This isn't new to me. I remember getting involved in altmode vs escape key arguments In the distant past. I always called it altmode, what right does anyone else Have to call it escape? :-))))). Big smileys, because I discovered that three Different ASCII codes (0174, 0175 and 033) were being used and I didn't know until Much much later. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 14 10:10:26 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 11:10:26 -0500 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> <4D2F8F0B.3030001@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: <4D307572.6050105@neurotica.com> On 1/14/11 10:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Those are the connectors. I've searched for the numbers on mine >> throughout the Cannon selection mechanism and have never come >> up with anything that fits. Cannon's catalogs have always been >> rather impenetrable to me... Especially with older 'lega > > When I get back home, I will check my catalogs. > > It is possible that the insert is a custom configuration. The K number > certainly looks Cannon, but does sort of small custom. Can you tell me > the ID of the metal shell? Cannon, and most other "round shell > military connector" makers, have different sized shells with the same > pin configuration. > > Making custom inserts is possible with a little effort. I'm very much interested in this as well; thank you for looking into this. It's my eventual desire to build a little box with a microcontroller to add on to my SPS to make it speak ASCII. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 14 12:05:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:05:57 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <01NWKVSKVNS2000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01NWKVSKVNS2000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4D302005.17653.2A83CA@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2011 at 15:34, Peter Coghlan wrote: > The BBC Micro internally generates the ready signal for the 8271 > controller from index, drive select and the 8MHz clock using a > 74LS393, 4020 and 4013. I figured out how the circuit works once and > my head still hurts. As far as I remember, it works like your > description above and if an index pulse is a few percent later than > expected, it deasserts ready. I should mention that there are many other systems using 5.25" drives that generate their own READY signal. Even the WD1770/1772 controllers do this within the chip. Details from the datasheet are a bit sketchy, but the controller counts 6 index pulses from MOTOR ON before it begins command execution and 10 index pulses after the last command before it deasserts the motor control signal. What I don't know (and the datasheet doesn't say) is what the timeout period is between index pulses before the controller concludes that the drive isn't ready. I've got a WD1770-based ISA controller if you're interested, I can experiement and see what the maximum time between index pulses is if you're curious. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 13:06:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:06:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <01NWKVSKVNS2000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jan 13, 11 03:34:31 pm Message-ID: > This was designed for 5.25in floppies and worked fine with early 3.5in > drives. However a problem arose with more recent 3.5in drives. It That figures... Alas a a lot of modern stuff is (a) badly desingend, (b) doesn't meet published specifcaitons and (c) is assuemd to be used with PCs only. > seems that instead of requiring a particular time between step pulses, > these drives allow the controller to step as fast as it likes and they What happens with one of these drives is you slow the steppign rate (at the cotnroller) right down, say to 20ms steps? Does it still sometimes kil the index pulse? Is this behavious properly documented anywhere? I guess that the days of getting OEM and service manuals for such drives are long gone :-( > It seems the lessons are firstly that the designers of the BBC micro did > not reckon they could rely on getting a good ready signal from the drive I have an idea tht some 5.25" drives didn't output a ready signal at all. > and secondly, no matter how you try to be clever, something will later > come along to mess up your cunning plan. Or alternatively, the number of ways that mdoern stuff is broken-as-designes is ever increasing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 13:14:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:14:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2F834D.8070500@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 13, 11 05:57:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 1/13/11 3:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Mine has an induction motor. There are contacts in the "hardware > >> UART", of course, but is there enough current flowing through that > > > > You mean the 'mechanical UAT' :-). There are no contacts in the receiver > > section. > > Ah, yes. :-) I'm still fascinated by that setup after all these > years...My first exposures to serial<->parallel conversion were the > AY-5-1013 and the wonderful Z80 SIO. My introduction to serial<->parallel conmversion was the ASR33 itself. And the first thing I learnt was that transmission as a lot easier than reception ;-). This is true however you do it (for example it's a lot easier to bit-bang a serial data output than a serial data input). The ASR33 transmitter looks slightly odd to British eyes. The Creeds have one transmitter contact that is toggled one way or the otehr mechancially for each bit -- that is there is a lever in the keyboard or reader that actually represnets the bitstream in real time, it then operates the switch. Some of the Creed readers have a sproket to move the tape that's drtietly driven by the motore (the tape doesn't stop and start for each character as it does in an ASR33) with the row of sense pins ('peckers' in Creed's terminologu) in a slanting line across the tape. They are lifted one at a time by a camshaft inside, sensing the holes in each track one after the other. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 13:52:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:52:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D2FAD6F.70102@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 14, 11 01:57:03 am Message-ID: > > On 13/01/11 21:33, Tony Duell wrote: > > I don;t think they're any worse than other disk drives. And a lot better > > than that darn Shugart thing with the spirally-gooved plastic disk to > > move the hean. ARGH! > > Sounds a bit like the helicoid in a camera lens... Not really. I am talking about a spiral, not a helix. The Shugart mechanism I am thinking of (it was used in the Apple Disk II for example) has a flat plastic disk with a coarse spiral groove in it. The disk is mounted on the stepper mtoro spindle, and is parallel to the floppy disk itself. The head carriage has a follower (looks like a ball bearing on a leaf sprign) that runs in the groove. As the plastic disk rotates, the follower runs in the goove and moves the head. And you can imaging, it was not a prcise mechanism when new. And after a bit of wear it's next-to-hopeless.. Some floppy drives, certain;y 8" ones, had a helical leadscrew on the stepper motro shaft that moved the head cariage via an anti-backleash nut. This mechanism seems to have no major problems. > > > Not all 3" drives are belt driven, altough I think the Amstrad ones we're > > discussing are. > > Indeed they are. Cheap cassette motor tied to an even cheaper thin > plastic "flywheel" by means of a shoddy little drive belt. On the plus Argh!. I didn't relaise the spindle pulley (it's hardly a flywheel!) was plastic. I've acutally never seen one of these drives. The 3" drives I've used are Hitachi ones with direct-drive brushless spindle motors, etc. > side it's a fairly standard cassette drive belt so fairly easy to replace... > > The worst part about them is that damn flywheel. Most 3.5in drives I've > seen use a honking great slab of heavy metal as a combined flywheel / > rotor (the ring magnets for the brushless motor are inside). There's Sure. Driect-drive 5.25" drives have that too. The belt-driven 5.25" and 8" drives that I've worked on have quite massive metall spindle pulleys that act as flywheels. > enough weight on one of those to smooth out any reasonable level of > speed variation... I think if I was rebuilding this drive as you are, I'd be tempted to make a metal spindle pulley, which should have some flywheel effect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 13:55:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 19:55:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 13, 11 08:08:19 pm Message-ID: > You know, that RS-232 that comes straight out of a microcontroller's > UART at 3.3v or 1.8v swings... that RS-232. Ah yes, anotehr of my pet hates... People who equate asynchronous serial communications with RS232. There are of course plenty of asynchronosu data transmission systems which do not use RS232 levels (like te output of a microcomntroller [1]) and there are plenty of RS232 interaces that are synchronous. Equating 'serial port' with either of them annoys me. Particularly people who don't accept that USGB, I2C, SPI, floppy disk data, etc are all seiral interfaces. [1] Of course my first thought for that would be a 5V swing... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 14:00:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 20:00:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D2FBD21.8080009@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 13, 11 07:04:01 pm Message-ID: > > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > You know, that RS-232 that comes straight out of a microcontroller's > > UART at 3.3v or 1.8v swings... that RS-232. > > Cool! That means I can connect it directly to my ASR33! For input (ASR33 to microcontroller) you might get away with it -- after all the trasnmit loop of the ASR33 is just switch contacts. Although for some contacts having too low a voltage can prevent them self-cleaning properly. For output (microcontroller to ASR33), well 'You cna try it if you like but you'd far better not-a'. I doubt the ASR33 would mind a bit, though :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 14:03:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 20:03:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Jan 14, 11 05:31:56 am Message-ID: > > > =A0 > Did somebody say Data Dynamics? Well them I knew well. Whilst at DEC I = Indeed I did.. > used > to supply them with LA36 print mechanics and logic boards, 500 at a = > time. YEs, Data Dynamics seemed to have a fair number of products which used standard mechanisms (like the LA36 or the ASR33) with their own cases/electroncis/modifications. > They added their own metalwork and I think keyboard. Some were = > fitted=A0with > Facit tape punches and readers. It made a nice 30cps printing terminal. = > I > would love to get my hands on one those just for old times sake. > > They had a factory in Hayes. The company was run by a couple of old guys > called Tindall and Stabler. This would have been around 1975/76 They were going long after that. I have a Data Danamics paper tape punch (Model 1130 I think). Some years ago (say late 80's) I phoned the factyry to see if they had any mechanical repair data for it (I hae the electroncis manaul + scheamtics). Alas they didn't keep old manuals :-(, so I had to work it all out myself... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 14:13:49 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 20:13:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D30599F.9010907@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 14, 11 02:11:43 pm Message-ID: > > On 13/01/11 21:29, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Is there a defined standard as to when the READY output on a > >> Shugart-type disc drive should go active? > > > > Not that I a maware of. Are there any standards for anything on that > > interface :-) > > Not really... other than "read data is a 1us pulse every time there's a > transition" and similar stuff like that. Is that 1us guaranteed? IIRC it comes from an RC one-shot in the drive, and there's considerable tolerance there. > > It's the minutiae that cause the trouble. Indeed yes. As I said in another message, at one time you could get OEM and service manuals for floppy drives, at least one of which would docuemnt that drive's interpretation fo the interface. Not any more :-( > > That is nto too suprising. Amstrad may have done a lot of odd things, but > > these drives did turn at 300 rpm and use the standard data rate. > > Never a bad thing :) Try sayign that to an Apple ][ fanatic and watch the fireworks! > > > I asusme you've looked at some old drive schematics. The write circuit is > > normally pretty simple, a divide-by-2 D-type clocked from the WD signal > > and reset by WG (to get a consistent starring phase when writing), > > That's the easy part :) > > > a couple of traisnstors to drive the heads and a current sink. And a > bit of > > enable logic. Often the transistors were part of a tranistor array chip. > > Hm, I don't think I have any discrete transistor array chips (unless the I think they're still available. > ULN2003 and 2803 High Current Darlington Arrays count).. and the only > transistors I have any great number of are BC857s (BC547s in SOT23 > surface mount packages). You mean you don't keep 2N3904s and 2N3908s in stock? I am seriously suprised, I use those by the dozen... > > The problem I'm trying to figure out is: how much current do I need to > put through the head, and how much current did the Amstrad board put > through it? I thought we estimated this some time ago from the resistors on the Amstrad board and a reasonable assumption that the write current was passed through one of the resistors. Alternatively, look at th shcemaitcs for some normal 5.25" and 3.5" drives that use discrete components in the write amplifier (I'll have a go if you can't find any..) Work out the write curtrent from those. It won't be exactly right, but I;ll be it'll be close... > I'd rather like to avoid overloading the head -- permanently magnetising > or frying it would not be a good start. Frying it would be a darn bad idea, I susepct the only sourve of spare heads comes witrh logic boards attached :-) However, you can demagnetise disk drive heads with a tape hard demagnetiser ('defluxer' in some books). Basically a coil with a soft iron cor that's connected to the mains through a push switch. Put the tip of th core on the head, press the switch, slowly move it away to arm's length and then (only then) release the button. I have no idea if you can still buy such things, but they must turn up on E-bay, or I guess you could make one. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 14 14:37:09 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 12:37:09 -0800 Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 14, at 7:09 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Eric wrote: >>>> There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code. They use a US variant >>>> of >>>> the ITA2 five-level code. >>>> Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used >>>> until >>>> the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2. > > Tim wrote: >>> That's a little like saying nobody actually uses ASCII since 1968, > we're all really >>> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true but not common usage. > > Eric wrote: >> No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot code used significantly >> different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and >> an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion. >> ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations >> and will generally interoperate reasonably well. > > I'm not disagreeing that the academically correct term is ITA #2. > (Interestingly > most web page hits today call it "ITA 2" or "ITA2" but the 70's and > earlier > books call it "ITA #2" when they are being pedantic.) > > I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level > TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. > Although > technically incorrect. (In concurrence:) A former list member, Tom Jennings, wrote a treatise on character code development from Morse to ASCII http://wps.com/J/codes/index.html From this, at the time it was created the Murray code was building on the principles of the Baudot code (fixed character lengths of 5 'bits' and simple two-state 'bits'), in contrast to the Morse(-style) codes (variable length characters and variable length primary symbols). While the Murray code might better have been referred to as a 'Baudot-style' code, one can surmise that in the context of the times (early-1900s), the significant point for general reference was not the details of the encoding but distinguishing it from Morse codes. The '-style' was implicit or dropped for simplicity of use and it was just referred to as 'Baudot' code. Some minor changes were made to the Murray encodings and it became the ITA #2, but referring to it as Baudot code continued for general reference. In other words (like so many other things), both terms would seem reasonable or 'correct' depending on the perspective one is coming from. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 14 14:59:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 12:59:34 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: <01NWKVSKVNS2000DIS@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Jan 13, 11 03:34:31 pm, Message-ID: <4D3048B6.29709.C9784B@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jan 2011 at 19:06, Tony Duell wrote: > > seems that instead of requiring a particular time between step > > pulses, these drives allow the controller to step as fast as it > > likes and they > > What happens with one of these drives is you slow the steppign rate > (at the cotnroller) right down, say to 20ms steps? Does it still > sometimes kil the index pulse? This is actuall older than one might think. I've got a FH 5.25" Micropolis 96 tpi drive that uses buffered seek--it blocks index until the head is on-cylinder. Probably 1979 or so; I could check the date codes. It uses a MOS Technology microcontroller (house numbered). It has a HC51/U-sized 2MHz crystal on the PCB. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 14 15:11:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:11:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D3048B6.29709.C9784B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 14, 11 12:59:34 pm Message-ID: > > What happens with one of these drives is you slow the steppign rate > > (at the cotnroller) right down, say to 20ms steps? Does it still > > sometimes kil the index pulse? > > This is actuall older than one might think. I've got a FH 5.25" > Micropolis 96 tpi drive that uses buffered seek--it blocks index > until the head is on-cylinder. Probably 1979 or so; I could check > the date codes. It uses a MOS Technology microcontroller (house > numbered). It has a HC51/U-sized 2MHz crystal on the PCB. Problaby one of those 6500-series microcontrollers, which were used in some disk drives... And it's old enoguh that the Beeb should have taken account of that design .Perhaps it was just so obscure that nobody over here had come across it (I certainly hadn't...) However, can you step it slowly enough (sensibly) that this is not a problem? If you snd, say, 12ms or 20ms-spaced step pulses, will it remain ready all the time? For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk, IMHO. On that thing, you can eitehr send the step pulses one at a time, waiting for hte 'on cylinder; signal to go active after each one. Or you can send a burdt sufficiently fast that the drive will buffer them, then move the head and assert 'on cylinder' when it's done. But if you send the burst of sstep pulses too _slowly_, the drive wil lget confusedand end up o nthe worng cyulinder. Ther reason (and I have the schematics...) is that there's on coiunter that is controleld both by the incoming puses and by the stepper motor derive clock. If the heads are moving when a step pulse comes in, there's a good change the control logic will be in the wrong state and will consider the incoming pulse to be a stepper motor clock pulse or vice versa, so the counter changes in the wrong direction... -tony > > Cheers, > Chuck > > From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 14 15:15:31 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:15:31 -0500 Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) Message-ID: Brent wrote: > Some minor changes were made to the Murray encodings and it became the > ITA #2, but referring to it as Baudot code continued for general > reference. In other words (like so many other things), both terms would > seem reasonable or 'correct' depending on the perspective one is coming > from. I will note that from an academic/historic standpoint that MacKenzie's _Coded Character Sets: History and Development_ calls it CCITT #2 and I don't think he uses the word Baudot at all. But I also feel that MacKenzie's book is written almost entirely from a standards-committee mindset. There's occasional mention of "real world usage after the character set was standardized" but it's brief. Tim. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 14 15:00:39 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:00:39 +0000 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D303231.6050803@brouhaha.com> References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> <4D303231.6050803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D30B977.8090106@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/01/2011 11:23, Eric Smith wrote: > Christian Corti wrote: > > E.g. the ASR33 is not RS-232 but definitely V.24; > > The Teletype Model 33 ASR may or may not meet V.24, depending on how it > is wired. There are a *lot* of different ways to wire it. > > > the same applies to a DE9 PC "serial port". > > The DE9 PC serial port meets the EIA/TIA-232 standard electrical > characteristics (if the board is designed properly), and TIA-574 > standard connector. It would be more accurate to say that TIA-574 meets the DE9 PC serial port "standard" (or non-standard), as the TIA standard postdates the PC use by many years. Before that, most DE9 serial ports were wired like microVAXen. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 14 15:26:07 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 22:26:07 +0100 Subject: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot Message-ID: <005701cbb431$ab9afed0$02d0fc70$@xs4all.nl> I acquired a HP 8018A serial data generator, a very nice piece of equipment. But after a little time the power supply heath sink is getting hot about 70 degrees Celsius (158F). I'm not sure if that is normal, anyone who can help me with this ? -Rik From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 14 15:27:43 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:27:43 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: <4D3048B6.29709.C9784B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 14, 11 12:59:34 pm, Message-ID: <4D304F4F.4509.E33D85@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jan 2011 at 21:11, Tony Duell wrote: > However, can you step it slowly enough (sensibly) that this is not a > problem? If you snd, say, 12ms or 20ms-spaced step pulses, will it > remain ready all the time? Yes, that works also. Akin to stepping an ST412 hard drive in ST506 fashion. > For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk. I have one of those. It has all the warts of an early design. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 14 15:38:33 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:38:33 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D30C259.2060604@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk, IMHO. On > that thing, you can eitehr send the step pulses one at a time, waiting > for hte 'on cylinder; signal to go active after each one. Or you can send > a burdt sufficiently fast that the drive will buffer them, then move the > head and assert 'on cylinder' when it's done. But if you send the burst > of sstep pulses too _slowly_, the drive wil lget confusedand end up o > nthe worng cyulinder. That's definitely less than ideal, but if they documented the minimum burst rate in the OEM manual, an engineer designing a controller for it I would not have had any serious complaint. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 14 16:28:29 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 22:28:29 -0000 Subject: When was the MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Introduced? Message-ID: <00bd01cbb43a$6243e270$26cba750$@ntlworld.com> I have found two conflicting sources for when this machine was introduced. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroVAX) it was April 1994. The source of this information appears to be this article: http://www.cbronline.com/archive/?SearchTerms=MicroVAX+3100+95 However, the following HP article http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/20th/vmsbook.pdf on p60 (bottom right) suggests it is September 1992. Both sources would appear to be pretty reliable, but they can't both be right. Does anyone have any suggestion how I might determine which is the more accurate? Regards Rob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 16:42:26 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:42:26 -0600 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D30D152.7050300@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> What happens with one of these drives is you slow the steppign rate >>> (at the cotnroller) right down, say to 20ms steps? Does it still >>> sometimes kil the index pulse? >> This is actuall older than one might think. I've got a FH 5.25" >> Micropolis 96 tpi drive that uses buffered seek--it blocks index >> until the head is on-cylinder. Probably 1979 or so; I could check >> the date codes. It uses a MOS Technology microcontroller (house >> numbered). It has a HC51/U-sized 2MHz crystal on the PCB. > > Problaby one of those 6500-series microcontrollers, which were used in > some disk drives... > > And it's old enoguh that the Beeb should have taken account of that > design .Perhaps it was just so obscure that nobody over here had come > across it (I certainly hadn't...) I suppose the question is whether Acorn wanted just anyone connecting any old drive to the BBC, or whether they'd rather you went out and bought an off-the-shelf unit (drive, enclosure, and either PSU or power lead for hooking to the BBC's PSU). They might have been aware of drives with buffered seek at design time, but assumed that vendors wouldn't supply that type of drive because it wouldn't work. Of course lots of people *did* homebrew drive setups for the beeb, but (at the time the machine was current) the chances of them having one that supported buffered seek were probably quite low. (are there documented cases of HH 5.25" drives with buffered seek? I don't think I've ever seen a FH drive used with a BBC machine) > For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk, IMHO. Heh, I like that. Oops! :-) cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 14 16:57:21 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 14:57:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110114144149.S9242@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, Richard wrote: > Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up here occasionally. > Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9. > But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are > talking about. When somebody talks about a "DB-15 VIDEO connector", are they talking about a DE-15 or a DA-15 (both of which are (or at least have been) used for video. When I needed an adapter from DA15 TO DE15, what should I call it? What's the best eBay search query for it? For that matter, unless we explicitly state the gender of the two ends of it, what does that "TO" mean? It may be (understatement) futile to try to educate the world to the correct terminology, but if we don't, then it continually gets harder to successfully differentiate ANYTHING. Should we accept people referring to a Macintosh diskette as a "3 and a quarter inch hard disk"? OB_Godwin: Baby Bush called Al-Quaeda "fascist". Are they? Bill Maher lost his TV show for saying that "cowards" was not the most accurate name to call the 9/11 assholes. Why are the REPUBLICAN states the "RED STATES"? Nobody remembers when the Republicans chanted "Better dead than red!"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 14 17:20:23 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 15:20:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F18DA.2060908@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110114151751.F9242@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, Christian Corti wrote: > Or V.24 vs. (whatever)-232... E.g. the ASR33 is not RS-232 but definitely > V.24; the same applies to a DE9 PC "serial port". I remember the manager of a Radio-Shack "Computer Store" telling us that the DIN connector on the Coco was "RS-232 - Radio Shack 232". No, he did NOT know that that was not the canonical use of "RS". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Jan 14 17:24:49 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 12:24:49 +1300 Subject: Red vrs Blue (very off topic)..was Character set pedanticness References: <20110114144149.S9242@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Why are the REPUBLICAN states the "RED STATES"? Nobody remembers when the > Republicans chanted "Better dead than red!"? Very off-topic I know but this has always puzzelled me? Here in New Zealand our main conservative party is associated with BLUE and our more left wing Labour party with RED. Same in the UK I believe. In the US it seems to be the other way around. Socialism is often associated with red in a political sense so how an earth did RED get associated with the American Republican party?? Terry (Tez) From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jan 14 17:44:50 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 23:44:50 +0000 Subject: When was the MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Introduced? In-Reply-To: <00bd01cbb43a$6243e270$26cba750$@ntlworld.com> References: <00bd01cbb43a$6243e270$26cba750$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D30DFF2.8080502@wickensonline.co.uk> On 14/01/11 22:28, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have found two conflicting sources for when this machine was introduced. > > According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroVAX) it was April > 1994. The source of this information appears to be this article: > http://www.cbronline.com/archive/?SearchTerms=MicroVAX+3100+95 > > However, the following HP article > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/20th/vmsbook.pdf on p60 (bottom right) > suggests it is September 1992. > > Both sources would appear to be pretty reliable, but they can't both be > right. Does anyone have any suggestion how I might determine which is the > more accurate? > > Regards > > Rob > The MicroVAX FAQ lists it as 1991 - I doubt if it is as late as 1994 - it's basically the same technology as is in the 4000/90A, so it might be worth cross-referencing with that model introduction. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Jan 14 17:59:59 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:59:59 -0500 Subject: When was the MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Introduced? In-Reply-To: <00bd01cbb43a$6243e270$26cba750$@ntlworld.com> References: <00bd01cbb43a$6243e270$26cba750$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D30E37F.90002@verizon.net> On 01/14/2011 05:28 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have found two conflicting sources for when this machine was introduced. > > According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroVAX) it was April > 1994. The source of this information appears to be this article: > http://www.cbronline.com/archive/?SearchTerms=MicroVAX+3100+95 > > However, the following HP article > http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/20th/vmsbook.pdf on p60 (bottom right) > suggests it is September 1992. > > Both sources would appear to be pretty reliable, but they can't both be > right. Does anyone have any suggestion how I might determine which is the > more accurate? > > Regards > > Rob > > 1992 is more correct. My source is a old 1995 document on microvax model performace. My other source MicroVAX/VAXstation Systems Text FAQ 1996 also says that. Wikipedia is only randomly accurate. I have a very old archive and my VAXen are from that era. I know for a fact personally that the /95 was available before the Palmer corporate bleed of '93 When I left DEC. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 14 18:04:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 16:04:30 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 13, 11 08:08:19 pm, Message-ID: <4D30740E.13995.172C82A@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Jan 2011 at 19:55, Tony Duell wrote: > Equating 'serial port' with either of them annoys me. Particularly > people who don't accept that USGB, I2C, SPI, floppy disk data, etc are > all seiral interfaces. > > [1] Of course my first thought for that would be a 5V swing... What we commonly knew as a "serial mouse" apparently has shifted meaning. I was shopping around to see if anyone still made "combo mice" with PS/2 and RS-232C interfaces. "Serial" apparently now means USB. Okay, but XT, AT, PS/2, RS232C and USB are all "serial". --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jan 14 18:37:13 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 00:37:13 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D30EC39.1000800@philpem.me.uk> On 14/01/11 20:13, Tony Duell wrote: >> Not really... other than "read data is a 1us pulse every time there's a >> transition" and similar stuff like that. > > Is that 1us guaranteed? IIRC it comes from an RC one-shot in the drive, > and there's considerable tolerance there. No, I've seen datasheets spec anything from 250ns to 1us or so as a "typical" value. The DiscFerret will pick up anything down to 1ns, if a pulse that narrow gets through the I/O buffers. Guaranteed maximum data rate through the LVX14s is ~5MHz, though if you used push-pull TTL (i.e. ignore the pull-up resistor pack) you could probably go to 20MHz or beyond. As for propagation delay, the IDC cable will probably cause more trouble than the length of the tracks on the PCB... > Indeed yes. As I said in another message, at one time you could get OEM > and service manuals for floppy drives, at least one of which would > docuemnt that drive's interpretation fo the interface. Not any more :-( The Samsung SFD321B datasheet is 'out there'. Somewhere on www.techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/ as I recall. >> Never a bad thing :) > > Try sayign that to an Apple ][ fanatic and watch the fireworks! "I believe in standards. Everyone should have one!" -- George Morrow, "Quotations from Chairman Morrow" >> Hm, I don't think I have any discrete transistor array chips (unless the > > I think they're still available. They are. And I put a Farnell order in the other day.... without ordering any. > You mean you don't keep 2N3904s and 2N3908s in stock? I am seriously > suprised, I use those by the dozen... My standard transistors are the BC547, BC557 and the SMD variants thereof (BC847 and BC857). I also use 2N7000 and 2N7002 N-MOSFETs like they're going out of fashion, and the Infineon BSS84 low-power logic-level P-MOSFET is a particular favourite :) The BD139 and BD140 are my standard medium-power NPN/PNPs, and I've got a few Mospec MJE2955 and MJE3055 10A/75W TO220 power transistors too. Note that all of these are European parts... the BCs were (AIUI) originated by Philips/Mullard, the BSSes by Siemens/Infineon. In terms of 2N-series parts, I have a couple of 2N2222s and that's about it. Oh, and some 2N3819 JFETs. Apparently there are a couple of 2N3904s and 2N3906es in my "unsorted parts" box, though whether they've been used for something in the meantime I have no idea. > I thought we estimated this some time ago from the resistors on the > Amstrad board and a reasonable assumption that the write current was > passed through one of the resistors. Indeed we did. Brain no workie... > Alternatively, look at th shcemaitcs for some normal 5.25" and 3.5" > drives that use discrete components in the write amplifier (I'll have a > go if you can't find any..) Work out the write curtrent from those. It > won't be exactly right, but I;ll be it'll be close... The Shugart SA800 or the Siemens drive Al Kossow mentioned might be a good starting point... >> I'd rather like to avoid overloading the head -- permanently magnetising >> or frying it would not be a good start. > > Frying it would be a darn bad idea, I susepct the only sourve of spare > heads comes witrh logic boards attached :-) Oh, I have other heads. Two more in fact (if you count the other drive which apparently has a working head and logic board but seriously poor speed regulation), plus the single-sided drive. The plan is to design a double-sided logic board, but try it on the SS drive, then move it to a DS drive to check the head-switching stuff. > However, you can demagnetise disk drive heads with a tape hard > demagnetiser ('defluxer' in some books). Basically a coil with a soft > iron cor that's connected to the mains through a push switch. Put the tip > of th core on the head, press the switch, slowly move it away to arm's > length and then (only then) release the button. I have no idea if you can > still buy such things, but they must turn up on E-bay, or I guess you > could make one. A degausser in other words? I don't think I've ever seen one small enough to go between two disc heads... or even into a tape deck for that matter. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 14 18:57:36 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:57:36 -0600 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <20110114020819.GF22794@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20110115005736.GQ22794@n0jcf.net> On Friday (01/14/2011 at 07:55PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > You know, that RS-232 that comes straight out of a microcontroller's > > UART at 3.3v or 1.8v swings... that RS-232. > > Ah yes, anotehr of my pet hates... People who equate asynchronous serial > communications with RS232. There are of course plenty of asynchronosu > data transmission systems which do not use RS232 levels (like te output > of a microcomntroller [1]) and there are plenty of RS232 interaces that > are synchronous. > > Equating 'serial port' with either of them annoys me. Particularly people > who don't accept that USGB, I2C, SPI, floppy disk data, etc are all seiral > interfaces. > > [1] Of course my first thought for that would be a 5V swing... well, it was mine too... but I was trying to be "hip". When I go to work each day now, I have to leave at least 1.7v at home. -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 20:12:20 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 21:12:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Flakey Multia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, Mark Kahrs wrote: > Actually, the Rayovac 840 is rated at 4.5v 800 mAh, so putting in > 3*AAA is a reasonable (and "cost effective") thing to do. But the > footprint is a tad larger. There's room... Interesting. I'm so used to seeing the 3.6V NiCad and Lithium batterys used for CMOS. So, that's certainly not it. > The NetBSD pages specifically mention a FCT623 as the cause of > problems but I didn't want to get into that mess unless I had to... A > Linux FAQ claimed that changing the video or serial cables could also > cause problems. Is that an SMD? -- From go at aerodesic.com Fri Jan 14 20:30:46 2011 From: go at aerodesic.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:30:46 -0800 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> <4D2F8F0B.3030001@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: <4D3106D6.2080000@aerodesic.com> There is no number, just "Cannon" on the metal shell (containing the strain relief.) The threaded ring that attaches the connector to the female shell *does*, however have a number. The 50 pin male pin body also contains no number that I can find. The numbers on the rings of the two connectors are: CA-K22909-4 KOA6-27-50PM (The KOA6 might be KDA6) -Gary On 01/14/2011 07:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Those are the connectors. I've searched for the numbers on mine >> throughout the Cannon selection mechanism and have never come >> up with anything that fits. Cannon's catalogs have always been >> rather impenetrable to me... Especially with older 'lega >> > When I get back home, I will check my catalogs. > > It is possible that the insert is a custom configuration. The K number > certainly looks Cannon, but does sort of small custom. Can you tell me > the ID of the metal shell? Cannon, and most other "round shell > military connector" makers, have different sized shells with the same > pin configuration. > > Making custom inserts is possible with a little effort. > > -- > Will > > > From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 14 20:48:02 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 18:48:02 -0800 Subject: Flakey Multia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D310AE2.2010906@brouhaha.com> Mark Kahrs wrote: > The NetBSD pages specifically mention a FCT623 as the cause of > problems Steven Hirsch wrote: > Is that an SMD? Yes. The original is a SN74F623DW, which is very power hungry. It definitely does go flaky, and renders the system flaky to completely unusable. The replacement I recommend is the SN74ABT623DW, which is BiCMOS, though others have reported success with the 74FCT623M. SN74F623DW CD74FCT623M SN74ABT623DW ------------- -------------- --------------- max high level A port current -3 uA @ 2.4V -15 uA @ 2.4V -32 uA @ 2.0V max high level B port current -15 uA @ 2.0V -15 uA @ 2.4V -32 uA @ 2.0V max low level A port current 24 mA @ 0.5V 64 mA @ 0.55V 64 mA @ 0.55V max low level B port current 64 mA @ 0.55V 64 mA @ 0.55V 64 mA @ 0.55V max quiescent current (Iccz) 130 mA 1.6 mA 0.25 mA max tPLH, A to B 6.5 ns 7.0 ns 4.6 ns max tPHL, A to B 7.5 ns 7.0 ns 4.6 ns max tPLH, B to A 6.5 ns 7.0 ns 4.6 ns max tPHL, B to A 7.5 ns 7.0 ns 4.6 ns max tPZH, /OEBA to A 12.0 ns 9.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPZL, /OEBA to A 10.0 ns 9.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPHZ, /OEBA to A 7.5 ns 7.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPLZ, /OEBA to A 7.0 ns 7.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPZH, OEAB to B 11.5 ns 9.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPZL, OEAB to B 9.5 ns 9.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPHZ, OEAB to B 10.0 ns 7.5 ns 7.5 ns max tPLZ, OEAB to B 10.0 ns 7.5 ns 7.5 ns For port current, high magnitudes are better. For quiescent current and propagation delays, lower values are better. Note that the CD74FCT623M has slightly slower max tPLH time than the original SN74F623DW. Probably not a problem, but I prefer the SN74ABT623DW for that reason. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 01:23:45 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 23:23:45 -0800 Subject: Help with DHV11/16 card? In-Reply-To: <4D2C1553.8090609@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D2C1553.8090609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 12:31 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > If that doesn't help, you could at least find out what address it's set to > by running a (fairly) little toggle-in program to find all the I/O addresses > in use in the machine. ?Look at > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/ODT/Listings/FindCSR for example. > Another thing to consider is updating the EPROMs on the M8189 KDF11-B to the KDF11B-BH version (23-381E4 / 23-380E4) which has the built in MAP command. See sample output below from my M8189 KDF11-B with the KDF11B-BH EPROMs. I could burn EPROMs for Charles and send them to him for just the postage if he's not setup to do so himself, except they are the less common and more expensive 24-pin MCM68766 instead of the common 28-pin 27C64. Pete has the KDF11-BJ (23-454E4 / 23-453E4) version in his ROM list but doesn't have the binaries files there. I guess he must not have copies of those or they would be there with the other ROM images? -Glen KDF11B-BH ROM V1.0 KB MEMORY 4088 9 STEP MEMORY TEST STEP 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 TOTAL MEMORY ERRORS = 0 CLOCK ENABLED Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:map MAP Type CTRL/C to go to next step CPU OPTIONS EIS FIS MEMORY Starting Ending Address Address 00000000 17757776 I/O Starting Ending Address Address 17772100 17772102 17772150 17772152 17772300 17772316 17772340 17772356 17772516 17772516 17773000 17773776 17775000 17775016 17776500 17776506 Press RETURN to continue 17777520 17777524 17777546 17777546 17777560 17777566 17777572 17777616 17777640 17777656 17777776 17777776 Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:help Command Definition Boot Load and start a program from disk or tape Diagnose Run Extended memory test List Print a list of bootable devices Map Run the system mapping routine Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]:list Bootable devices Device Max Name Type Units DU DSA 8 DL RL01/02 4 DX RX01 2 DY RX02 2 DD TU58 2 XH QNA 2 MS TQK25/TS05 1 MU TK50 1 Type ? for HELP Enter one of [Boot, Diagnose, Help, List, Map]: From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Fri Jan 14 12:18:23 2011 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:18:23 -0500 Subject: Flakey Multia Message-ID: Actually, the Rayovac 840 is rated at 4.5v 800 mAh, so putting in 3*AAA is a reasonable (and "cost effective") thing to do. But the footprint is a tad larger. There's room... The NetBSD pages specifically mention a FCT623 as the cause of problems but I didn't want to get into that mess unless I had to... A Linux FAQ claimed that changing the video or serial cables could also cause problems. From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jan 14 16:28:51 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 22:28:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? Message-ID: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie> > >> seems that instead of requiring a particular time between step pulses, >> these drives allow the controller to step as fast as it likes and they > >What happens with one of these drives is you slow the steppign rate (at >the cotnroller) right down, say to 20ms steps? Does it still sometimes >kil the index pulse? > I tested at the slowest stepping rate available on an unmodified BBC model B (which I think is 24ms) and it still failed occasionally. I suspect that it can fail no matter how slow the stepping rate is. > >Is this behavious properly documented anywhere? I guess that the days of >getting OEM and service manuals for such drives are long gone :-( > Pete Turnbull tells me that the TEAC data sheet for the FD-235HF series mentions it. He also has a write-up on the issue here: http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/BBC/index_and_READY.html Regards, Peter Coghlan. From go at ao-cs.com Fri Jan 14 19:43:19 2011 From: go at ao-cs.com (Gary Oliver) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 17:43:19 -0800 Subject: Flexowriters In-Reply-To: References: <4D2D6EDC.5020504@snarc.net> <301309DF45C443C48DD5975B36BE71AC@RODSDEVSYSTEM> <4D2D7BA9.16728.6284B@cclist.sydex.com> <4D2F66F8.9060505@aerodesic.com> <4D2F8F0B.3030001@ao-cs.com> Message-ID: <4D30FBB7.6000008@ao-cs.com> There is no number, just "Cannon" on the metal shell (containing the strain relief.) The threaded ring that attaches the connector to the female shell *does*, however have a number. The 50 pin male pin body also contains no number that I can find. The numbers on the rings of the two connectors are: CA-K22909-4 KOA6-27-50PM (The KOA6 might be KDA6) -Gary On 01/14/2011 07:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Those are the connectors. I've searched for the numbers on mine >> throughout the Cannon selection mechanism and have never come >> up with anything that fits. Cannon's catalogs have always been >> rather impenetrable to me... Especially with older 'lega >> > When I get back home, I will check my catalogs. > > It is possible that the insert is a custom configuration. The K number > certainly looks Cannon, but does sort of small custom. Can you tell me > the ID of the metal shell? Cannon, and most other "round shell > military connector" makers, have different sized shells with the same > pin configuration. > > Making custom inserts is possible with a little effort. > > -- > Will > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 15 05:10:09 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:10:09 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <4D318091.20503@dunnington.plus.com> On 14/01/2011 22:28, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> Is this behavious properly documented anywhere? I guess that the days of >> getting OEM and service manuals for such drives are long gone :-( >> > > Pete Turnbull tells me that the TEAC data sheet for the FD-235HF series > mentions it. He also has a write-up on the issue here: > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/BBC/index_and_READY.html Peter has a better memory than I; I'd forgotten about that! The TEAC data sheets used to be on TEAC's Data Storage Products Division web pages and available from their fax-back service. Trying to find the index page might be interesting, but AFAICS the docs are still there. They're also on www.devicemanuals.com. The ones I referred to are documents called: 3fd0020a.pdf -- this is mainly a description of the jumpers to select various functions on a TEAC FD235F/FD235HF 3.5" drive, and amongst other things describes the jumper settings for gating the /INDEX and /RD DATA lines. Choices are "full mask" (index valid only when coincident with pulse detection and drive-select and ready (up to speed) and seek complete); "half mask" (pulse and drive select and ready); "no mask" (pulse and drive select and motor on). However, not all FD235 drives have all the jumpers. http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/3fd0020a.pdf http://www.devicemanuals.com/guide/Floppy%20Drives/TEAC/TEAC-3FD0020A-3.5-Desktop-Floppy-Drive-TkRZd05URT.html 5fd0010a.pdf -- a similar document but for the FD5050 combo drive (a 3.5"and 5.25" in the same half-height chassis), though it contains more information about installing the drive. http://www.teac.com/DSPD/pdf/5fd0010a.pdf 5fd0020a.pdf -- description of FD55-BR 5.25" drive; describes jumper settings but doesn't mention any gating of /INDEX. 5fd0050a.pdf -- similar document for the FD55-GFR-3/4/5/7xx drive ranges; also doesn't mention gating /INDEX. Incidentally, all describe how to set the speed select and/or density select according to pin 2 input, and where appropriate, how to make that pin an output; also how to select pin 34 as /READY or /DSK-CHG. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 15 05:20:44 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:20:44 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D318091.20503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie> <4D318091.20503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D31830C.7040008@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/01/2011 11:10, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The TEAC data sheets used to be on TEAC's Data Storage Products Division > web pages and available from their fax-back service. Trying to find the > index page might be interesting, but AFAICS the docs are still there. A bit of digging did eventually find me the support pages at http://www.teac.com/DSPD/support/floppy_drives/floppy_drives.htm which is useful, but the links to what should be the index (http://www.teac.com/DSPD/catalog.htm) to the PDF docs are broken. The files are there, but not (apparently) the index. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 12:09:28 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 10:09:28 -0800 Subject: HP-UX .WAD file format? Message-ID: Anyone here know anything about the .WAD file format in the context of HP-UX 9.0x, or more specifically in the context of an HP 16505A which is logic analyzer application running on top of HP-UX 9.0x on an HP 712/60? I have a set of MS-DOS FAT12 floppy disk images which each contain an UPDATE.WAD and an INFO.WAD file pair. I believe these must be compressed file archives. From looking at hex dumps of the files there are no obvious plain text strings. I would like to be able to view the archive contents and extract whatever files they might contain. Sample hex dumps below. These sample file pairs start with a common 15-byte file header: UPDATE.WAD (file size 320-bytes) 0000:0000 1f9d 9030 6e04 1c08-a320 8c18 060b ca80 ...0n...? ....?. 0000:0010 4123 e08d 1a0c 0fde-40d8 30c6 c484 3016 A#?....?@?0??.0. 0000:0020 6284 61a3 c68d 1920-1bda c038 03e2 c684 b.a??.. .??8.??. 0000:0030 75e6 c879 3107 8e9c-3763 d694 a133 e745 u??y1...7c?.?3?E 0000:0040 1937 765e 9849 c3a6-cc99 9775 e0cc 0130 .7v^.I???..u??.0 0000:0050 50a0 c084 0813 ce88-78e3 e149 a524 4f76 P??...?.x??I?$Ov 0000:0060 fc18 9223 4619 1a9f-c248 b9b2 e5cb 9833 ?..#F...?H????.3 0000:0070 6bde b443 d428 4183-490d 366c d8d4 a4d6 k??C?(A.I.6l???? INFO.WAD (file size 12043 bytes) 0000:0000 1f9d 9030 6e04 1c08-a320 8c18 060b ca40 ...0n...? ....?@ 0000:0010 18f0 8640 1a07 6f20-8418 4362 c283 170b .?. at ..o ..Cb?... 0000:0020 daa8 7163 8647 8836-6624 9401 31a3 8d18 ??qc.G.6f$..1?.. 0000:0030 366c 2081 82b2 068c-1a5f c690 f912 e30b 6l ..?..._?.?.?. 0000:0040 4417 65e4 c801 3022-c40b 3169 dcbc 5833 D.e??.0"?.1i??X3 0000:0050 078d 8211 0a8e 8250-0a62 65cb 9731 67c6 .......P.be?.1g? 0000:0060 8008 22e8 1c3a 61d8-b001 9153 ce1b 3920 .."?.:a??..S?.9 0000:0070 e68c 9193 060e 9da3-4947 a85d cbb6 ad5a ?......?IG?]???Z From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 11:19:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:19:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot In-Reply-To: <005701cbb431$ab9afed0$02d0fc70$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 14, 11 10:26:07 pm Message-ID: > > I acquired a HP 8018A serial data generator, a very nice piece of equipment. > > But after a little time the power supply heath sink is getting hot about 70 > degrees Celsius (158F). That does sound rather hot. Personally, if I can't keep my hand on a heatsink, then I want to investigte (DO NOT try this with SMPSUs where the heatsinks are often live!) > > I'm not sure if that is normal, anyone who can help me with this ? Ifr you don't already have it, you can get the operating/service manual from http://www.agilent.com/ . Once you've found the 'manuals page, you enter the model number (8018) and it'll give you a link to download the pdf manual. Said manual looks to contain full schematics, etc. Anyway, I've not really looked at it, but I did notice that the PSU is entirley linear, and that there's a -5.2V rail, presumably for ECL. To me that suiggests it might run hot, but how hot I don't lnow. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 11:21:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:21:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D304F4F.4509.E33D85@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 14, 11 01:27:43 pm Message-ID: > > For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk. > > I have one of those. It has all the warts of an early design. Except it wasn't an early design. OK, it was an early-ish wincheaster, but stepper motor controllers are much the same whatever you sue them for. The problems were known about and could have been avoided. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 11:27:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:27:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D30C259.2060604@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 14, 11 01:38:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk, > IMHO. On > > that thing, you can eitehr send the step pulses one at a time, waiting > > for hte 'on cylinder; signal to go active after each one. Or you can > send > > a burdt sufficiently fast that the drive will buffer them, then move the > > head and assert 'on cylinder' when it's done. But if you send the burst > > of sstep pulses too _slowly_, the drive wil lget confusedand end up o > > nthe worng cyulinder. > > That's definitely less than ideal, but if they documented the minimum > burst rate in the OEM manual, an engineer designing a controller for it > I would not have had any serious complaint. I don;t know abotu the OEM manual becuase I don't have it, but I would assume it was in there. The service manual, which I do have, says : 'In order to be valid, step pulses must be at one of two rates. I nthe normal mode there will be 1.1 msec or more time delay between incoming step pulses. In the buffered mode, there will be less than 350 $\mu$sec time delay betwene them. If step pulses are incoming 600 $\mu$sec apart for exmaple, then every other pulse would be lost causing the heads to move only half the required number of tracks. The reason for this is that the stap count timer locatad at positon 1A which counts down to zero in apporoximately 500 $\mu$secwould output a low pulse. This pulse then clocks chip 5B blocking out incoming step pulses for another 500 $\mu$sec while cjip 1A once again counts down to zero generating a single track step and a SEEK COMPLETE signal. At this time another step pulse is allowed to enter, but the precious one was lost.' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 11:49:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:49:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D30D152.7050300@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 14, 11 04:42:26 pm Message-ID: > > > > And it's old enoguh that the Beeb should have taken account of that > > design .Perhaps it was just so obscure that nobody over here had come > > across it (I certainly hadn't...) > > I suppose the question is whether Acorn wanted just anyone connecting any old > drive to the BBC, or whether they'd rather you went out and bought an Well, the Beeb was gnerally well-designed and stuck to stnadards (apart from that daft serial port connecotr, whcih was mis-wired anyhow!). My guessis that they would have prefered you to buy their own drvie system, but werne't goiing to stop you using whatever you liked... My guess ithat buffered-seek drives were sufficiently uncommon that either they'd not come caross them or thought the problem would almost nver arise. [...] > (are there documented cases of HH 5.25" drives with buffered seek? I don't > think I've ever seen a FH drive used with a BBC machine) Full height drives were ocmmon on Beebs. The original Acorn-badged drive was a full-height 40 cylidner single-head thing. It was also unreliable. I never got to see inside one, so I don't know who made the mechanism, but it wasn't one of the common ones. I've seen plenty of other full-height drive systems used on beebs too, normally using Tandon TM100s (in one of their many versions) or similar. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 11:55:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:55:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype) In-Reply-To: <20110114144149.S9242@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 14, 11 02:57:21 pm Message-ID: > > When somebody talks about a "DB-15 VIDEO connector", are they talking > about a DE-15 or a DA-15 (both of which are (or at least have been) used > for video. When I needed an adapter from DA15 TO DE15, what should I call I have seen the DE15 connector called an 'HDB15'. ARGH!. But it might be the right name ot use if you'ere dealing with the local PC shop... > it? What's the best eBay search query for it? For that matter, unless we Probalby soemthing involving 'Macintosh' and 'VGA' :-) > explicitly state the gender of the two ends of it, what does that "TO" mean? > > It may be (understatement) futile to try to educate the world to the > correct terminology, but if we don't, then it continually gets harder to > successfully differentiate ANYTHING. I woudlagree. I always try to use the correct terms if I know them, even if they are not the onescommonly used. However, I also try to accept incorrect terms if it's clear what is meant. If somebody asks me for the pinout of the 'DB9' [1] connector on the HP Portable Plus, I don't just replay that there's no such thing. Instead I get out the techref and tell them the pinout of the DE9 serial port. And I call it a DE9 in my reply. [1] $deity that was hard for me to type. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 12:02:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:02:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D30740E.13995.172C82A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 14, 11 04:04:30 pm Message-ID: > What we commonly knew as a "serial mouse" apparently has shifted > meaning. I was shopping around to see if anyone still made "combo > mice" with PS/2 and RS-232C interfaces. > > "Serial" apparently now means USB. Okay, but XT, AT, PS/2, RS232C > and USB are all "serial". Last time I bought a mouse (which was only a couple of months ago), the ones in the local Maplin were labelled as 'USB' or 'PS/2' on the box. Als on RS232 seiral ones at all. Not hat it mattered for what I wanted. I didn't want a mouse at all. I wanted a dual phototransitor to fix a shaft encoder, and a cheap PC mouse was the easies way to get it. I would argue that quadrature mice are not serial but prallel in that the states of the 4 quadrature signasl and the buttons are all available simultaneously on the interfce connector. Yes, you have to look for changes in signals to see if/how the mouse is moving, but I don;t think that makes it serial. Mind you, I am old enough to rememebr descriptions like 'bit parallel, characger serial' for the Centronics interface, meaning that while all the bits of a given character are presented in parallel, the characters of a line are sent one after another -- serially. I also remember digital measuring instruments with a fully parallel BCD interface, whiuch would have perhaps 32 data lines for the 4 bit BCD of each of the 8 digits. All valid at the same time/. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 12:10:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:10:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D30EC39.1000800@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 15, 11 00:37:13 am Message-ID: > Oh, I have other heads. Two more in fact (if you count the other drive > which apparently has a working head and logic board but seriously poor > speed regulation), plus the single-sided drive. The plan is to design a Woudln;'t it be easier to fix the speed cotnrol of that drive? Perhaps it's a motor problem (if it really is a cheap cassette-type motor, I could believe one of the windings was open). I can't beleive the speed control circuitry is that complicated. > double-sided logic board, but try it on the SS drive, then move it to a > DS drive to check the head-switching stuff. > > > However, you can demagnetise disk drive heads with a tape hard > > demagnetiser ('defluxer' in some books). Basically a coil with a soft > > iron cor that's connected to the mains through a push switch. Put the tip > > of th core on the head, press the switch, slowly move it away to arm's > > length and then (only then) release the button. I have no idea if you can > > still buy such things, but they must turn up on E-bay, or I guess you > > could make one. > > A degausser in other words? > > I don't think I've ever seen one small enough to go between two disc > heads... or even into a tape deck for that matter. They were veryt common at one time. The 'business end' was a soft wiron rod about 7 or 8mm in daimeter with a shaped tip. That sould get between the heads of most drives I think. As I said, I have noi dea if they ar still made, but I can't beleive they are rare on Ebay... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jan 15 12:25:30 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 18:25:30 -0000 Subject: When was the MicroVAX 3100 Model 95 Introduced? In-Reply-To: <00bd01cbb43a$6243e270$26cba750$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3ACE4FC5FCDF4704BEB076F92939A20F@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > I have found two conflicting sources for when this machine was > introduced. Only two :-) > According to Wikipedia > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroVAX) it was > April 1994. > The source of this information appears to be this article: >http://www.cbronline.com/archive/?SearchTerms=MicroVAX+3100+95 >However, the following HP article >http://h71000.www7.hp.com/openvms/20th/vmsbook.pdf on p60 (bottom >right) suggests it is September 1992. Actually p60 bottom right suggests "V5.5-2HW September 1992" but the 3100 M95 is listed under "V5.5-2H4 August 1993". If you look at the various technical manuals which you can find on the net, the earliest ones to mention the 95 are dated June 1994. I did have a bunch of info I'd carefully culled for this sort of thing, including references, but that's not handy right now. The UK editions of DECdirect are handy though. The April 1994 edition mentions options for the uVAX 3100-90 but not the -95. By October 1994 (now called "digital" rather than DECdirect) the uVAX 3100-95 is there. The timeline on the DEC 40th Anniversary CD has the uVAX 3100-40 in 1992, the uVAX 3100-85 in 1994 and the VAX 4000-106A in 1995. My recollection is that the uVAX 3100-95 came out at the same time as the -85. So everything I have points to 1994. Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 15 13:02:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:02:57 -0800 Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4D30740E.13995.172C82A@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 14, 11 04:04:30 pm, Message-ID: <4D317EE1.12265.132FAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2011 at 18:02, Tony Duell wrote: > I would argue that quadrature mice are not serial but prallel in that > the states of the 4 quadrature signasl and the buttons are all > available simultaneously on the interfce connector. Yes, you have to > look for changes in signals to see if/how the mouse is moving, but I > don;t think that makes it serial. Perhaps, but when was the last time that you saw a new quadrature mouse being offered for sale? Mice today universally communicate using a single serial bit stream. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 15 13:12:12 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 11:12:12 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D318091.20503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie>, <4D318091.20503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D31810C.28751.1BA5D1@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2011 at 11:10, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The TEAC data sheets used to be on TEAC's Data Storage Products > Division web pages and available from their fax-back service. Trying > to find the index page might be interesting, but AFAICS the docs are > still there. They're also on www.devicemanuals.com. Fine, but what does this have to do with the operation of the 3.0" drives that Philip was asking about? AFAIK, the custom ICs used on Teac drives are sui generis and not shared with other manufacturers. It'd be a little difficult to generalize universal operation from Teac specs, I'd think. At any rate, on many Teac 3.5" drives, there are many undocumented jumpers (look for the pads marked "Sx"), so behavior is a lot more flexible than the OEM documentation would imply for that model. For example, one can convert several models of the FD235HF to operate as FD235HG by changing the setting of the pads at S4. --Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 15 14:08:50 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:08:50 +0100 Subject: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot In-Reply-To: References: <005701cbb431$ab9afed0$02d0fc70$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 14, 11 10:26:07 pm Message-ID: <002101cbb4f0$099e2160$1cda6420$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zaterdag 15 januari 2011 18:20 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot > > I acquired a HP 8018A serial data generator, a very nice piece of equipment. > > But after a little time the power supply heath sink is getting hot > about 70 degrees Celsius (158F). That does sound rather hot. Personally, if I can't keep my hand on a heatsink, then I want to investigte (DO NOT try this with SMPSUs where the heatsinks are often live!) > > I'm not sure if that is normal, anyone who can help me with this ? Ifr you don't already have it, you can get the operating/service manual from http://www.agilent.com/ . Once you've found the 'manuals page, you enter the model number (8018) and it'll give you a link to download the pdf manual. Said manual looks to contain full schematics, etc. Anyway, I've not really looked at it, but I did notice that the PSU is entirley linear, and that there's a -5.2V rail, presumably for ECL. To me that suiggests it might run hot, but how hot I don't lnow. -tony I've the manual and did some measurements, there are 3 current sense resistors one for each supply voltage. The 25V and -5.2V current are within spec. the 5V current is a little high but in spec when I remove the HP-IB option card. ESR of the psu elco's < 0,03 Ohm and tantalium cap's <1 Ohm on the board are good . Measuring the heath sing temperature gives 68-70 degrees Celsius, but the instrument keeps running stable. So I think it's 'designed' to get hot... -Rik From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Jan 15 14:09:55 2011 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 15:09:55 -0500 Subject: need Num Lock keycap for IBM Model M Message-ID: <4D31FF13.9060707@hawkmountain.net> Anyone have a dead model M or some keycaps around. I rescued this one from a recycle pile and it works fine.... a few key caps were off it and I found them, but missed the fact the num lock cap was missing, and now the pile has been hauled off.... so no looking for it now. Let me know if you have a Num Lock key cap. -- Curt From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 15:39:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:39:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Teletype Tales Part 3 In-Reply-To: <4D317EE1.12265.132FAE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 15, 11 11:02:57 am Message-ID: > > On 15 Jan 2011 at 18:02, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I would argue that quadrature mice are not serial but prallel in that > > the states of the 4 quadrature signasl and the buttons are all > > available simultaneously on the interfce connector. Yes, you have to > > look for changes in signals to see if/how the mouse is moving, but I > > don;t think that makes it serial. > > Perhaps, but when was the last time that you saw a new quadrature > mouse being offered for sale? Mice today universally communicate I am pretty sure I've seen new quadrature-output trackballs farily recently. Not quite the same thing, but much the same interface... > using a single serial bit stream. This is classiccmp, right? I think more of my machines take qudrature-ouptut mice than take serial mice (and of the latter, most of them are HP-HIL interfaced mice, which is a bit-serial interface). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 15:45:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 21:45:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D31810C.28751.1BA5D1@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 15, 11 11:12:12 am Message-ID: > > On 15 Jan 2011 at 11:10, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > > The TEAC data sheets used to be on TEAC's Data Storage Products > > Division web pages and available from their fax-back service. Trying > > to find the index page might be interesting, but AFAICS the docs are > > still there. They're also on www.devicemanuals.com. > > Fine, but what does this have to do with the operation of the 3.0" > drives that Philip was asking about? AFAIK, the custom ICs used on > Teac drives are sui generis and not shared with other manufacturers. Absolutely. The point is that different manufacturers did things in different ways (in this case a drive not being 'ready' could bne indicated by inhibiting the index signal). > It'd be a little difficult to generalize universal operation from > Teac specs, I'd think. True. The problem seems to be (and it's come out in this thread) that different manufactuers did their own thing. There is nu universal specification. TYhe best you can do is read as many of the disk drive manuals and specs as you can and work out how to be compatible with all of them. > > At any rate, on many Teac 3.5" drives, there are many undocumented > jumpers (look for the pads marked "Sx"), so behavior is a lot more > flexible than the OEM documentation would imply for that model. Annoyling the jumpers -- even the standard ones -- are not documented in the service manuals at all. They're shown on the schemaitcs, but they just connect to pins on the ASIC. -tony From rivie at ridgenet.net Sat Jan 15 16:18:07 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 14:18:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP-UX .WAD file format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Jan 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > I have a set of MS-DOS FAT12 floppy disk images which each contain an > UPDATE.WAD and an INFO.WAD file pair. I believe these must be > compressed file archives. From looking at hex dumps of the files > there are no obvious plain text strings. Sound like game files for one of the DOOM games. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 15 16:35:37 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 22:35:37 +0000 Subject: HP-UX .WAD file format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D322139.7010509@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 15/01/2011 22:18, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Sat, 15 Jan 2011, Glen Slick wrote: >> I have a set of MS-DOS FAT12 floppy disk images which each contain an >> UPDATE.WAD and an INFO.WAD file pair. I believe these must be >> compressed file archives. From looking at hex dumps of the files >> there are no obvious plain text strings. > > Sound like game files for one of the DOOM games. However I believe that Doom/Heretic/Hexen/RoTT WAD files always have IWAD or PWAD as their first 4 bytes which these do not. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From alexeyt at freeshell.org Sat Jan 15 18:10:42 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 00:10:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: HP-UX .WAD file format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 15 Jan 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > Anyone here know anything about the .WAD file format in the context of > HP-UX 9.0x, or more specifically in the context of an HP 16505A which > is logic analyzer application running on top of HP-UX 9.0x on an HP > 712/60? > > I have a set of MS-DOS FAT12 floppy disk images which each contain an > UPDATE.WAD and an INFO.WAD file pair. I believe these must be > compressed file archives. From looking at hex dumps of the files > there are no obvious plain text strings. > > I would like to be able to view the archive contents and extract > whatever files they might contain. > > Sample hex dumps below. These sample file pairs start with a common > 15-byte file header: > > UPDATE.WAD (file size 320-bytes) > 0000:0000 1f9d 9030 6e04 1c08-a320 8c18 060b ca80 ...0n...? ....?. Several 'magic' files are telling me that files starting with 1f9d are .tar.z files, i.e. tar archives that are LZW compressed. Have you tried: zcat UPDATE.WAD | tar xf - Alexey From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 15 18:29:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:29:22 -0700 Subject: HP-UX .WAD file format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Alexey Toptygin writes: > zcat UPDATE.WAD | tar xf - or 'tar tvf -' just to see what's in it without attempting to extract. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jan 15 19:22:38 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:22:38 -0800 Subject: HP-UX .WAD file format? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 4:10 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote: > > Several 'magic' files are telling me that files starting with 1f9d are > .tar.z files, i.e. tar archives that are LZW compressed. Have you tried: > > zcat UPDATE.WAD | tar xf - > Most excellent. Thank you for the tip. It seems so obvious now given that I assumed it was a compressed file archive for an HP-UX system. It was quicker to try this on my Win32 system where I had the files handy so renamed the .WAD files as .GZ files and used gzip to decompress them and then used GnuWin32 bsdtar -tvf on the decompresed files. Here's the result from the files on the floppy: 16505A CD INSTALL UTILITY Version A.01.40 Part Number: 16505-17571 INFO: -rwxrwxrwx 1 16505 16505 3190 Sep 02 1998 HP16505_cd_1_40.err -rwxrwxrwx 1 16505 16505 75 Sep 02 1998 HP16505_cd_1_40.files -rwxrwxrwx 1 16505 16505 168 Sep 02 1998 HP16505_cd_1_40.info -rwxrwxrwx 1 16505 16505 17540 Sep 02 1998 HP16505_cd_1_40.post -rwxrwxrwx 1 16505 16505 9279 Sep 02 1998 HP16505_cd_1_40.pre UPDATE: drwxrwxr-x 2 16505 16505 0 Sep 02 1998 usr/sprockets/env/filegroups drwxrwxr-x 3 0 3 0 Sep 02 1998 usr/sprockets/env drwxrwxr-x 3 0 3 0 Sep 02 1998 usr/sprockets drwxrwxr-x 3 0 3 0 Sep 02 1998 usr drwxrwxr-x 3 0 3 0 Sep 02 1998 . There is a companion CD-ROM Agilent 16505A Prototype Analyzer System Software REV. A.01.40 Part No. 16505-14601 The CD-ROM contains 29 floppy disk image files, which each contain an INFO.WAD / UPDATE.WAD file pair. HP16505_session-image_1 and HP16505_session-image_2 Update_1_40-image_1 through Update_1_40-image_27 I'll have to extract the INFO.WAD / UPDATE.WAD file pairs from each of those floppy images and view the contents of their .tar archives. Possibly this will actually contain the complete set of 16505A application (which is named "sprockets") files to layer on top of an HP-UX 9.0x installation. I have been trying to figure out how to rebuild an HP 16505A OS and software installation from scratch on a new hard drive for a while. -Glen From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Jan 15 23:21:14 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 23:21:14 -0600 Subject: FS: Apple II prototyping board Message-ID: FS: one unused "Suntronics" wire-wrap prototyping board for Apple II, complete with edge connector. No longer have the IIe ;) http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=P1160071.jpg $10, includes postage in US. thanks -Charles From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 16 07:38:18 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 13:38:18 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D31810C.28751.1BA5D1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie>, <4D318091.20503@dunnington.plus.com> <4D31810C.28751.1BA5D1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D32F4CA.9050600@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/01/2011 19:12, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jan 2011 at 11:10, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> The TEAC data sheets used to be on TEAC's Data Storage Products >> Division web pages > Fine, but what does this have to do with the operation of the 3.0" > drives that Philip was asking about? We've been discussing the general case of index pulses being masked, in relation to the /READY signal. This thread wasn't specifically about 3" drives, it was about the interface, even though Philip asked in relation to a particular drive. You yourself made comments referring to 8"drives ;-) > It'd be a little difficult to generalize universal operation from > Teac specs, I'd think. True. But in response to uncertainty about whether the phenomenon was real I gave an example of a case where the drive design actually does mask index pulses. Surely that's useful/relevant? No-one else has come up with a documented example or evidence. > For example, one can convert several models of the FD235HF to operate > as FD235HG by changing the setting of the pads at S4. As noted in the docs :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jan 16 12:13:00 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 13:13:00 -0500 Subject: preparing an order for more S-100 boards Message-ID: <9BE3B627B9A641988B9E10C638F72041@andrewdesktop> Hi! I am preparing to order some additional S-100 board PCBs. At the moment, the most requested boards on the waiting list are below S-100 buffered prototyping board (12 waiting) S-100 4MB SRAM (11 waiting) S-100 EPROM (9 waiting) There needs about 20-25 firm builders on the waiting list to make a PCB manufacturing order feasible. I cannot afford a lot of leftover PCBs so it is important that most of these boards have a home before I will place an order. If you would like to get some S-100 PCBs based on the projects we have done already please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will add you to the waiting list. Please do not sign up if you are uncertain or unwilling to follow through with getting a PCB. Your word of honor is sufficient to me that you will follow through for PCBs on the waiting list. I still have a small number of S-100 parallel ASCII keyboard boards and S-100 PIC/RTC boards. In particular the S-100 PIC/RTC boards will be very important for the upcoming S-100 8086 CPU board John and I are working on. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS a complete list of completed S-100 boards below. If you are interested in any of these boards please let me know however the number of builders on the waiting list probably means another board order is some time away. Regular Prototyping board Buffered Prototyping board 8 Slot Backplane IDE Parallel ASCII Keyboard converter 4MB SRAM System Monitor Board Bus Extender EPROM IO PIC/RTC Z80 CPU these are in work but not complete yet: Console IO ZFDC 68K CPU 8086 CPU From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 16 12:36:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 10:36:34 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D32F4CA.9050600@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie>, <4D31810C.28751.1BA5D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D32F4CA.9050600@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D32CA32.20761.12210D@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Jan 2011 at 13:38, Pete Turnbull wrote: > We've been discussing the general case of index pulses being masked, > in relation to the /READY signal. This thread wasn't specifically > about 3" drives, it was about the interface, even though Philip asked > in relation to a particular drive. You yourself made comments > referring to 8"drives ;-) To quote Phil's original message. "I'm (slowly!) working through the rebuild of one of the Amstrad drives (an EME231 I know to have working mechanical components, potentially good heads, and a fried control board), and I'm stuck on deciding how to deal with the READY output." My comment on 8" was to the effect of saying that (1) 8" drive schematics are available online (2) that all 8" drives to my knowledge have READY outputs and (3) few 8" drives use undocumented custom ICs to derive this ready signal. Therefore, it would seem to be a good resource for inspecting the legacy way of getting a READY signal. > > For example, one can convert several models of the FD235HF to > > operate as FD235HG by changing the setting of the pads at S4. > > As noted in the docs :-) I'm sitting here with a brand-new FD235HF-A240 drive. Please point me to the documentation for this model that notes the HF-to-HG jumper- -or for that matter, what any of the option pads S1-S6 do. All the best, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 16 14:15:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:15:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic Message-ID: I guess the HP150 counts as a 'classic computer'... I have an HP150 (origianl model, 9" CRT) on my bench, and amongst other things it's reporting touchscreen problems in the POST. This is quite common with such machines, and nearly always means that one or more of the IR beams was blocked during the test. This is often due to dirt build-up on the faces of the opto-devices. it can be due to failure of the devices themselves. The touchscreen electroncis is mounted on a frame-shaped PCB that fits just behind the front bezel. The interface to the rest of the machine is 1 10 pin header plug. From what I rmemeber (and I do have pinouts and shcematics), there are 3 +12V pins, 3 ground pins, a -12V pin and 3 signals : A clcok input (to touchscreen) that moves the IR beam on to the next position A synv output (from the touchscreen) which indicates that the last IR beam is being sampled (or maybe last + 1) I would ahve to check A data output which indicates if the currently selected beam is open or blocked. These signals are all at odd voltage levels (the touchscreen cirucitry is 4000 series CMOS running off a 10V supply obtained from the +12V rail). HP use transsitors on the CPU PCB to get them to/from TTL levels. they then end up on the pins of an 8042 microcontroller which also handles the keyboard and beeper. Connecting a logic analyser to these signals indeed shows that there are some beams that appear blocked. The obvious thing is to be able ot determine which ones so I know which optodevices to test/inspect. I can think of several ways of doing this : Count the clock pulses on the logic analyser screen :-) Make a circuit -- a handful of logic chips, shfit registers, etc that connects to the touchscreen, generates the clock signal, etc and displys the state of each beam on a separate LED. Probably possible with the contents of my junk box, and anywas as I've said, I like soldering. Ditto, but use a microcontroller. It keeps the chip count down, bnt it's probably more work for me. The command list for the 8042 on the HP150 CPU board (in one of the HP manuals) includes a command to test which IR beams are blocked (this is not the same as reporting the touchscreen corrdinates). Unfotunately, (a) you can't use this if the makhine is scannign the keyboard and (b) the description seems incomplete. It says that this command will return 2 bytes giving the numbers of any blocked berams. Well, with only 16 birs (and 36 beams), it can't be a bit vector. It also says that if both bytes are 0xff, then no beams are blocked, if one is 0xff then only one beam is blocked (specified by the other byte). What happens if more than 2 beams are blocked? More importantly, since to use this command you have to disable interrupts and stop the keyboard scanning, it's not going to be possible to do it from interpretted BASIC. And the programming lanaugages on this old version of MS-DOS are not that pleasant... iI can't find an HP diagnostic that gives detailed information on touchscreen problems, or any reference to one. Any suggestions/comments? -tony From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Sun Jan 16 15:55:44 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 13:55:44 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D49AEDA3BBE4081926D9B6AD9F643FF@tegp4> > Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 17:21:34 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > > > For pure bad deisgn, nothing beats the Shugart SA4000 hard disk. > > > > I have one of those. It has all the warts of an early design. > > Except it wasn't an early design. OK, it was an early-ish wincheaster, > but stepper motor controllers are much the same whatever you sue them > for. The problems were known about and could have been avoided. > > -tony I believe it was the first HDD of any sort to use a floppy disk type of interface. It was followed by the SA1000 interface, which in turn became the ubiquitous industry standard ST506 interface. Since it was first, it is not surprising that it had problems, many of which it inherited from the Shugart floppy interfaces it was trying to resemble so as to reduce design in times. Tom From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Jan 16 16:07:30 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 23:07:30 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zondag 16 januari 2011 21:16 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic I guess the HP150 counts as a 'classic computer'... I have an HP150 (origianl model, 9" CRT) on my bench, and amongst other things it's reporting touchscreen problems in the POST. This is quite common with such machines, and nearly always means that one or more of the IR beams was blocked during the test. This is often due to dirt build-up on the faces of the opto-devices. it can be due to failure of the devices themselves. The touchscreen electroncis is mounted on a frame-shaped PCB that fits just behind the front bezel. The interface to the rest of the machine is 1 10 pin header plug. From what I rmemeber (and I do have pinouts and shcematics), there are 3 +12V pins, 3 ground pins, a -12V pin and 3 signals : A clcok input (to touchscreen) that moves the IR beam on to the next position A synv output (from the touchscreen) which indicates that the last IR beam is being sampled (or maybe last + 1) I would ahve to check A data output which indicates if the currently selected beam is open or blocked. These signals are all at odd voltage levels (the touchscreen cirucitry is 4000 series CMOS running off a 10V supply obtained from the +12V rail). HP use transsitors on the CPU PCB to get them to/from TTL levels. they then end up on the pins of an 8042 microcontroller which also handles the keyboard and beeper. Connecting a logic analyser to these signals indeed shows that there are some beams that appear blocked. The obvious thing is to be able ot determine which ones so I know which optodevices to test/inspect. I can think of several ways of doing this : Count the clock pulses on the logic analyser screen :-) Make a circuit -- a handful of logic chips, shfit registers, etc that connects to the touchscreen, generates the clock signal, etc and displys the state of each beam on a separate LED. Probably possible with the contents of my junk box, and anywas as I've said, I like soldering. Ditto, but use a microcontroller. It keeps the chip count down, bnt it's probably more work for me. The command list for the 8042 on the HP150 CPU board (in one of the HP manuals) includes a command to test which IR beams are blocked (this is not the same as reporting the touchscreen corrdinates). Unfotunately, (a) you can't use this if the makhine is scannign the keyboard and (b) the description seems incomplete. It says that this command will return 2 bytes giving the numbers of any blocked berams. Well, with only 16 birs (and 36 beams), it can't be a bit vector. It also says that if both bytes are 0xff, then no beams are blocked, if one is 0xff then only one beam is blocked (specified by the other byte). What happens if more than 2 beams are blocked? More importantly, since to use this command you have to disable interrupts and stop the keyboard scanning, it's not going to be possible to do it from interpretted BASIC. And the programming lanaugages on this old version of MS-DOS are not that pleasant... iI can't find an HP diagnostic that gives detailed information on touchscreen problems, or any reference to one. Any suggestions/comments? -tony I'll use an old video cam to see witch LED isn't sending, Sony has an excellent 'night view"mode witch is very IR sensitive. Do you have the HP 150 technical reference ? -Rik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Sun Jan 16 16:39:38 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 20:39:38 -0200 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic References: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <1F4247FDD286412EBD6CC89C82721112@portajara> > I'll use an old video cam to see witch LED isn't sending, Sony has an > excellent 'night view"mode witch is very IR sensitive. > Do you have the HP 150 technical reference ? Any digital camera can see IR from leds. But if the problem is in the receiver? Use a scope to see the signals on the foot of the IR receiver, I think it is an "easier" way of doing that, beyond using a digital camera (or ANY camera, I can't remember a videocamera with no IR detection) to detect IR emission Good luck! :D From pinball at telus.net Sat Jan 15 15:35:58 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 15 Jan 2011 13:35:58 -0800 Subject: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot In-Reply-To: <005701cbb431$ab9afed0$02d0fc70$@xs4all.nl> References: <005701cbb431$ab9afed0$02d0fc70$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4D32133E.3080602@telus.net> Rik Bos wrote: > I acquired a HP 8018A serial data generator, a very nice piece of equipment. > > But after a little time the power supply heath sink is getting hot about 70 > degrees Celsius (158F). > > I'm not sure if that is normal, anyone who can help me with this ? > > > > -Rik > > > Older equipment should have power supply (and elsewhere) electrolytic capacitors tested/replaced as the average capacitor life span is only a couple of thousand hours (2,000 hr). An ESR meter might help here...or feel the cap after the machine has been on a while (turn it off before touching!), and any that are hot to the touch should likely be replaced as suspects... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jan 16 19:14:54 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 01:14:54 +0000 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D32CA32.20761.12210D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie>, <4D31810C.28751.1BA5D1@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D32F4CA.9050600@dunnington.plus.com> <4D32CA32.20761.12210D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D33980E.6000500@dunnington.plus.com> Hi, Chuck. This pointless argument (if argument it is) doesn't need to be on the list. On 16/01/2011 18:36, Chuck Guzis wrote: > To quote Phil's original message. Yes, I did go back and read Phil's original message. My messages about 3.5" drives and how INDEX and READY are sometimes manipulated followed directly from subsequent messages about INDEX in general. If you'd been following the various splits of the threads in order, I expect you'd have noticed that. OK, so I don't have the docs for an HG drive. It's hardly relevant. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 16 19:47:22 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 17:47:22 -0800 Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D33980E.6000500@dunnington.plus.com> References: <01NWMN7MK1NA000DRA@beyondthepale.ie>, <4D32CA32.20761.12210D@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D33980E.6000500@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D332F2A.23520.19C898E@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2011 at 1:14, Pete Turnbull wrote: > This pointless argument (if argument it is) doesn't need to be on the > list. Hi Pete, My point was that using a Teac 3.5" floppy drive probably would not duplicate the behavior of the original 3" drive that Phil is trying to rebuild. I'm very familiar with the behavior of various drives, including Teac. Some late-model 5.25" drives, for example, won't come ready if a hard-sectored floppy is used. You get no index output at all. Some drives send the index pulse through even if READY hasn't been asserted by the drive. I suppose that I ought to settle this by hauling out one of my 3" drives and document the READY signal behavior. > OK, so I don't have the docs for an HG drive. It's hardly relevant. I suspect that you also don't have detailed documentation on option pads for the FD-235HF-A240 either--neither do I. While I do have some schematics from the Teac FAX-back service, at some point Teac quit honoring requests for low-level technical information on their floppies. I've had to use mostly trial and error to do things, such as find out how to make the 5.25" part of an FD505 operate in 2-speed mode (it can be done). But I'm with you in one respect--further discussion of this topic is less than satisfying. Best regards, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 17 00:37:32 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2011 22:37:32 -0800 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at the same time) In-Reply-To: References: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D33E3AC.1070504@mail.msu.edu> On 1/13/2011 12:10 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > How do you like the MacIvory III? It's a very nice card, and it makes playing with a real Lisp Machine much easier -- considerably less space & noise than a full LispM, and it allows me to use standard monitors and hard disks as well (the full 3600 and XL series machines either use specific ESDI drives (which are getting very hard to find) or SCSI disks that support being formatted to 1280-byte sectors (which are also pretty hard to find). I have the Symbolics ADB keyboard adapter, so I can use a real 'bolix keyboard with it. Genera is a wonderful operating system/development environment, at least if you like Lisp :). It's proof (as far as I'm concerned) that it's possible to make a system that's both powerful and user-friendly (it just takes a lot of design effort.) I just wish my MacIvory was a revision that's compatible with 68040 systems, I'd rather have it running in my Quadra 950, but the IIfx does a good job, too. > > I have a couple IIfx machines and I have them stuffed with cards (had > one with dual Radius Rockets before, DSP cards plus I have 386 and 486 > Orange Micro cards). > Cool. The Rockets are cool cards, though I'm not quite sure what to do with them :). It's also limiting that they only support up to System 7.1, given that they're basically Quadras, it'd be nice to run OS 8.1 on one in my IIfx. I also have the AST Mac286 card set, which I haven't gotten running yet -- it appears the software doesn't like to run on System 7.6. Wish I knew how to make a hard drive image larger than 20mb for the Orange386 card -- 20mb is pretty limiting, and I have gigabytes of space available.... - Josh From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 17 03:56:20 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:56:20 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <1F4247FDD286412EBD6CC89C82721112@portajara> References: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> <1F4247FDD286412EBD6CC89C82721112@portajara> Message-ID: <001101cbb62c$cdc11330$69433990$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Alexandre Souza - Listas Verzonden: zondag 16 januari 2011 23:40 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic > I'll use an old video cam to see witch LED isn't sending, Sony has an > excellent 'night view"mode witch is very IR sensitive. > Do you have the HP 150 technical reference ? Any digital camera can see IR from leds. But if the problem is in the receiver? Use a scope to see the signals on the foot of the IR receiver, I think it is an "easier" way of doing that, beyond using a digital camera (or ANY camera, I can't remember a videocamera with no IR detection) to detect IR emission Good luck! :D You're right but many new cameras have built-in IR-filters with makes them less usable for viewing IR-led's in daylight. The mechanical construction looks a lot like the ones used for HP 16500 LA's only the HP150 use a casing with holes in it where the 16500 LA uses dark IR passing plastic . The touchscreen PCB is bent a little to follow the curves of the screen. This makes it a bit tricky to measure because when the PCB isn't exactly in line with the holes it doesn't work right. So it's a lot easier to diagnose with everything in place, if you know the digital coding of the touchscreen. -Rik From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 17 03:59:17 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:59:17 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001501cbb62d$37b6edf0$a724c9d0$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: zondag 16 januari 2011 21:16 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic I guess the HP150 counts as a 'classic computer'... I have an HP150 (origianl model, 9" CRT) on my bench, and amongst other things it's reporting touchscreen problems in the POST. This is quite common with such machines, and nearly always means that one or more of the IR beams was blocked during the test. This is often due to dirt build-up on the faces of the opto-devices. it can be due to failure of the devices themselves. The touchscreen electroncis is mounted on a frame-shaped PCB that fits just behind the front bezel. The interface to the rest of the machine is 1 10 pin header plug. From what I rmemeber (and I do have pinouts and shcematics), there are 3 +12V pins, 3 ground pins, a -12V pin and 3 signals : A clcok input (to touchscreen) that moves the IR beam on to the next position A synv output (from the touchscreen) which indicates that the last IR beam is being sampled (or maybe last + 1) I would ahve to check A data output which indicates if the currently selected beam is open or blocked. These signals are all at odd voltage levels (the touchscreen cirucitry is 4000 series CMOS running off a 10V supply obtained from the +12V rail). HP use transsitors on the CPU PCB to get them to/from TTL levels. they then end up on the pins of an 8042 microcontroller which also handles the keyboard and beeper. Connecting a logic analyser to these signals indeed shows that there are some beams that appear blocked. The obvious thing is to be able ot determine which ones so I know which optodevices to test/inspect. I can think of several ways of doing this : Count the clock pulses on the logic analyser screen :-) Make a circuit -- a handful of logic chips, shfit registers, etc that connects to the touchscreen, generates the clock signal, etc and displys the state of each beam on a separate LED. Probably possible with the contents of my junk box, and anywas as I've said, I like soldering. Ditto, but use a microcontroller. It keeps the chip count down, bnt it's probably more work for me. The command list for the 8042 on the HP150 CPU board (in one of the HP manuals) includes a command to test which IR beams are blocked (this is not the same as reporting the touchscreen corrdinates). Unfotunately, (a) you can't use this if the makhine is scannign the keyboard and (b) the description seems incomplete. It says that this command will return 2 bytes giving the numbers of any blocked berams. Well, with only 16 birs (and 36 beams), it can't be a bit vector. It also says that if both bytes are 0xff, then no beams are blocked, if one is 0xff then only one beam is blocked (specified by the other byte). What happens if more than 2 beams are blocked? More importantly, since to use this command you have to disable interrupts and stop the keyboard scanning, it's not going to be possible to do it from interpretted BASIC. And the programming lanaugages on this old version of MS-DOS are not that pleasant... iI can't find an HP diagnostic that gives detailed information on touchscreen problems, or any reference to one. Any suggestions/comments? -tony Tony, At page 3-37 to 3-49 of the HP-150 technical reference manual the touchscreen is described. If you don't have it let me know I'll make a scan (can take a few days I'm on a business trip this week). -Rik From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 04:12:50 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:12:50 -0200 Subject: [OT]: Altera DE1/DE2 board References: <001501cbb62d$37b6edf0$a724c9d0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <6DC4FCBE28E74D88A513EE0EAF1EB190@portajara> Anyone has a spare DE1/DE2 Altera board to sell? A friend of mine is looking for one of that, for a classic-computer-related project You can contact him directly if you prefer at miguel (you know the symbol) tabalabs.com.br Thanks! --- Enviado do meu Motorola PT550 From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 08:26:55 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:26:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple A/UX install Message-ID: Anyone on the list have experience installing A/UX on a 68k Mac? I'm running into some very odd issue trying to bring up my Centris 610. The Centris shipped with a 68LC040 processor and I've upgraded to a "full" RC68040 CPU, since that's a requirement for A/UX. The CD-ROM drive is one of the units known to be compatible with A/UX. The FAQ claims that the installer understands third-party hard disks (unlike the MacOS installer) so I'm trying to use (variously) an older IBM Deskstar 850MB and/or Fujitsu 500MB SCSI drive for the install target. Here's the odd part: With the original Apple-branded OEM Quantum drive (which I do not want to overwrite) on the SCSI bus the installer recognizes the CD-ROM and is willing to begin the process. However, with any of the third-party hard drives in the system it is unable to recognize _anything_ on the SCSI bus - doesn't see the hard disk or the CD-ROM. I've checked and double-checked the jumpering on the hard disk and it's not conflicting with the CD-ROM. Both the IBM and Fujitsu are fairly run-of-the-mill 50-pin SCSI units. I've never had issues in the past with non-Apple drives hanging the bus or preventing access to other devices, so this one's really a head-scratcher. Any ideas what might be throwing the SCSI subsystem for a loop? Steve -- From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 17 08:28:25 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:28:25 -0500 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (atthe same time) References: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> <4D33E3AC.1070504@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <7D541106121C4684B7A7ABC1BE391C43@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Josh Dersch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 1:37 AM Subject: Re: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (atthe same time) > I also have the AST Mac286 card set, which I haven't gotten running yet -- > it appears the software doesn't like to run on System 7.6. Wish I knew > how to make a hard drive image larger than 20mb for the Orange386 card -- > 20mb is pretty limiting, and I have gigabytes of space available.... > > - Josh I looked around and only found my 486 manual, have the 386 one somewhere and when I find it I will look up partition information (currently I am running the 486 boards and the 386 are on the shelf). From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 17 08:31:18 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:31:18 -0500 Subject: Apple A/UX install References: Message-ID: What version of A/UX are you trying to install? Do you have the boot disk for that version? Have you checked termination on the new drive along with SCSI ID? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 9:26 AM Subject: Apple A/UX install > Anyone on the list have experience installing A/UX on a 68k Mac? I'm > running into some very odd issue trying to bring up my Centris 610. The > Centris shipped with a 68LC040 processor and I've upgraded to a "full" > RC68040 CPU, since that's a requirement for A/UX. The CD-ROM drive is one > of the units known to be compatible with A/UX. > > The FAQ claims that the installer understands third-party hard disks > (unlike the MacOS installer) so I'm trying to use (variously) an older IBM > Deskstar 850MB and/or Fujitsu 500MB SCSI drive for the install target. > > Here's the odd part: With the original Apple-branded OEM Quantum drive > (which I do not want to overwrite) on the SCSI bus the installer > recognizes the CD-ROM and is willing to begin the process. However, with > any of the third-party hard drives in the system it is unable to recognize > _anything_ on the SCSI bus - doesn't see the hard disk or the CD-ROM. I've > checked and double-checked the jumpering on the hard disk and it's not > conflicting with the CD-ROM. Both the IBM and Fujitsu are fairly > run-of-the-mill 50-pin SCSI units. > > I've never had issues in the past with non-Apple drives hanging the bus or > preventing access to other devices, so this one's really a head-scratcher. > > Any ideas what might be throwing the SCSI subsystem for a loop? > > Steve > > > -- > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 17 08:55:28 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 06:55:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Apple A/UX install In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <869177.86531.qm@web121601.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 1/17/11, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Here's the odd part: With the original Apple-branded > OEM Quantum drive (which I do not want to overwrite) on the > SCSI bus the installer recognizes the CD-ROM and is willing > to begin the process. However, with any of the > third-party hard drives in the system it is unable to > recognize _anything_ on the SCSI bus - doesn't see the hard > disk or the CD-ROM. I've checked and double-checked the > jumpering on the hard disk and it's not conflicting with the > CD-ROM. Both the IBM and Fujitsu are fairly > run-of-the-mill 50-pin SCSI units. It's interesting you should have this problem with A/UX. For many years, the "trick" to formatting non-Apple drives on a Mac was to use the HD Setup that shipped with A/UX - it didn't care. You could use that version of HD Setup to format any hard drive, and after it was formatted, MacOS saw it just fine. Are you sure you're not getting bitten by SCSI termination issues, or ID conflicts? If you boot from floppy with the drive as the only disk on the bus, does it work? The staple of old Mac setup was always a modified Disk Tools floppy - bootable version of System 7, with the Apple HD Setup program replaced with a hacked one, or the one that shipped with A/UX. -Ian From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 09:23:45 2011 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 10:23:45 -0500 Subject: Apple A/UX install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D345F01.90906@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Here's the odd part: With the original Apple-branded OEM Quantum drive > (which I do not want to overwrite) on the SCSI bus the installer > recognizes the CD-ROM and is willing to begin the process. However, with > any of the third-party hard drives in the system it is unable to > recognize _anything_ on the SCSI bus - doesn't see the hard disk or the > CD-ROM. I've checked and double-checked the jumpering on the hard disk > and it's not conflicting with the CD-ROM. Both the IBM and Fujitsu are > fairly run-of-the-mill 50-pin SCSI units. Did you only check the SCSI ID jumpers, or did you also check the termination and termination power jumpers? Multiple devices providing terminator power can sometimes cause this symptom, especially if the SCSI bus arbiter is a bit sensitive. Peace... Sridhar From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jan 17 10:16:01 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 11:16:01 -0500 Subject: [OT]: Altera DE1/DE2 board In-Reply-To: <6DC4FCBE28E74D88A513EE0EAF1EB190@portajara> References: <001501cbb62d$37b6edf0$a724c9d0$@xs4all.nl> <6DC4FCBE28E74D88A513EE0EAF1EB190@portajara> Message-ID: <4D346B41.7080509@verizon.net> On 1/17/2011 5:12 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > Anyone has a spare DE1/DE2 Altera board to sell? > I just bought a Terasic Altera DEO board this weekend -- it should arrive this week. I've had a Xilinx Spartan-3E board for a couple years, and I wanted to go to Altera and check out the competition. Basically, see how capable Altera is in comparison. Most of the Xilinx tools(ISE, Project Navigator, EDK) seem pretty big, and if not bloated, then just resource hungry(and I'm not talking about synthesis or place/route.) Altera's Quartus II seems better, but I haven't played with it enough yet to make a call. Everything I read seems to indicate that Altera's software is not only better laid out, more lightweight, but is actually several times faster for the whole compilation. Plus, I've heard from friends who work in the field, that they do a better job of squeezing logic into less amount of resources by optimizing w/ better results than ISE. The call between the DE0 board and the DE1 board is tough. The DE0 is newer and contains a Cyclone III although it is slightly smaller than the Cyclone II on the DE1. The on-chip resources of the Cyclone III kill the Cyclone II --- namely offering much more on-chip dedicated memory(and are M9K blocks vs M4K blocks), having more available 18x18 multipliers, and just about every other stat. The Cyclone II chosen for the DE1 has about 18k logic elements where the Cyclone III chosen on the DE0 has about 15k. 3k, you say, but that's another 20% or so. Sorry for hijacking your thread. :) Keith From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 11:40:10 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 09:40:10 -0800 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <001101cbb62c$cdc11330$69433990$@xs4all.nl> References: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> <1F4247FDD286412EBD6CC89C82721112@portajara> <001101cbb62c$cdc11330$69433990$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 1:56 AM, Rik Bos wrote: > > ?The mechanical construction looks a lot like the ones used for HP 16500 > LA's only the HP150 use a casing with holes in it where the 16500 LA uses > dark IR passing plastic . On the couple of occasions when I have looked at an HP 16500 where the power up diagnostics said the touch screen was 'impaired' it was due to one of the plastic IR guides working its way loose and out of position. Putting the guide back in its proper position fixed the problem. -Glen From feedle at feedle.net Mon Jan 17 13:22:01 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan / A Baumann) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 11:22:01 -0800 Subject: Apple A/UX install In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2011, at 6:26 AM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Any ideas what might be throwing the SCSI subsystem for a loop? You didn't mention termination.. you are terminating the bus at both ends, right? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 12:48:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 18:48:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot In-Reply-To: <4D32133E.3080602@telus.net> from "John Robertson" at Jan 15, 11 01:35:58 pm Message-ID: > Older equipment should have power supply (and elsewhere) electrolytic > capacitors tested/replaced as the average capacitor life span is only a > couple of thousand hours (2,000 hr). An ESR meter might help here...or I really cn't beliueve it's that short. 2000 hours is less than 100 days. Which, given a reaosnable usage period of the equipment (say 8 hours a dayu on average) would suggest that on average an electrolytic capacitor would need replacing after 1 year. And that is not what I am seeing. Of course I've replaced electrolytics in classic computgers. But I've certainly not replaced all of them. Many of muy machines are over 30 years old, they have been used, and have had no capacitors fail at all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 13:17:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:17:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Disc drive READY output -- any standards? In-Reply-To: <4D33980E.6000500@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 17, 11 01:14:54 am Message-ID: > > Hi, Chuck. > > This pointless argument (if argument it is) doesn't need to be on the > list. I would agree... I see nothing at all wrong with the origianl thread. This isa discussion list. If you want a consultancy service where you ask a question and get an answer back, then I, and I assume many other list memebrs, will be happy to provide one -- for a fee. As it is, we all get something out of the list by the discussion. I have certainly learnt things from this thread. On a discussion list, topics aree goingto drift. It's almost in the nature of a discussion. The term 'clasisc computer' has never been defined, but we all have an idea what it means. Now I think it's fair to say that floppy disks were used with many classic computers. In which case the drives themselves bevome on-topic for this list both as a part of the classic computer (this list is not, and should not be, about processors only) and as a way to preserve the software used on said classic comptuers. So what's happend is that an origianl on-topic question has generated an on-topic discussion. On a discussion list. What on earth is the problem with that? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 13:20:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:20:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <001501cbb62d$37b6edf0$a724c9d0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 17, 11 10:59:17 am Message-ID: > At page 3-37 to 3-49 of the HP-150 technical reference manual the > touchscreen is described. Yes, I have that. I've also looked at the signals with a logic analyser (on the 'other side' of the TTL level shifters on the CPU board, and the signals seem to agree with the manual. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 13:25:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:25:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <001101cbb62c$cdc11330$69433990$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 17, 11 10:56:20 am Message-ID: > The mechanical construction looks a lot like the ones used for HP 16500 > LA's only the HP150 use a casing with holes in it where the 16500 LA uses > dark IR passing plastic . That may well have been an improvement casued by the known problem of dirt collecting in the holes (particularly along the bottom edge) and blocking the beams. HP sold some plastic strips to clip into the holes on the HP150, but theydidn't do a lot of good. The 12" touchscreen that I've seen (e.g. on the HP150-II) works on the same principle, but has an HP-HIL interface. It also has a redesigned bexel without physical holes, presuably to avoid the problem/ > The touchscreen PCB is bent a little to follow the curves of the screen. I will ahe to look at that. It's mounted by 4 corner screws onto the back of the bexzel, I didn't realise that it bent the PCB. > This makes it a bit tricky to measure because when the PCB isn't exactly in > line with the holes it doesn't work right. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 13:05:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:05:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: <2D49AEDA3BBE4081926D9B6AD9F643FF@tegp4> from "Tom Gardner" at Jan 16, 11 01:55:44 pm Message-ID: [SA4000] > I believe it was the first HDD of any sort to use a floppy disk type of > interface. It was followed by the SA1000 interface, which in turn became You might well be right there. All the older hard disks I've come across did have soem kind of parallel bus to specify the cylinder to seek to, rather than a ntep input. > the ubiquitous industry standard ST506 interface. Since it was first, it is > not surprising that it had problems, many of which it inherited from the > Shugart floppy interfaces it was trying to resemble so as to reduce design > in times. Hmm... The problem w as known about and documented, and by that point digital design was well enough understood to know how to avoid it. I guess it wasn;'t regarded a a big enough problem to worry about, especially since if you dit waht hte OEM manual told you, the drive worked properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 13:09:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:09:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 16, 11 11:07:30 pm Message-ID: > I'll use an old video cam to see witch LED isn't sending, Sony has an > excellent 'night view"mode witch is very IR sensitive. I can think of at least 3 problems with that approach : 1) It only checks the emitters, not the detectors (or the path through the 4051 muxes) 2) You may be able to see if a beam looks a bit dim (e.g. the IR LED is weak, or more likely it's covered in dirt), but will you know how dim is too dim to work? 3) I am not sure my video camera has much sensitivity in the IR. It depends on which vidicon is fitted, I think. > Do you have the HP 150 technical reference ? Yes, and the HP150-II suplement. I don't find it that good. The schematics are incomplete, there's at least one error (in that what is shown couldn't work correctly), and I think there are some other differences with the mahcines I have. The programming information is not that clear either (e.g. the section o nthe commands ot the 8042 doesn't explain what the touchscreen diagnostic command does if there are more than 2 blocked beams) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 17 13:12:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 19:12:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <1F4247FDD286412EBD6CC89C82721112@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 16, 11 08:39:38 pm Message-ID: > think it is an "easier" way of doing that, beyond using a digital camera (or > ANY camera, I can't remember a videocamera with no IR detection) to detect > IR emission 'ANY camera'? I think finding IR film for some of my cameras would be a challenge to say the least... -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 17 15:06:16 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:06:16 +0000 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D34AF48.6020803@philpem.me.uk> On 17/01/11 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > 'ANY camera'? I think finding IR film for some of my cameras would be a > challenge to say the least... Ilford SFX200 might work... I've got two rolls of the stuff in the fridge, and an IR filter. One of these days I'll load the EOS33v with it and have a play... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 17 16:05:36 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 23:05:36 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 16, 11 11:07:30 pm Message-ID: <003601cbb692$ae8d08f0$0ba71ad0$@xs4all.nl> > I'll use an old video cam to see witch LED isn't sending, Sony has an > excellent 'night view"mode witch is very IR sensitive. >I can think of at least 3 problems with that approach : >1) It only checks the emitters, not the detectors (or the path through the 4051 muxes) Yes I know, but it is excluding the most obvious faults (the led's). >2) You may be able to see if a beam looks a bit dim (e.g. the IR LED is weak, or more likely it's covered in dirt), but will you know how dim is too dim to work? No but in most cases the working of led's in binary they work or they don't. >3) I am not sure my video camera has much sensitivity in the IR. It depends on which vidicon is fitted, I think. Yes, stupid of me I should have known, mea culpa ;-) > Do you have the HP 150 technical reference ? >Yes, and the HP150-II suplement. >I don't find it that good. The schematics are incomplete, there's at least one error (in that what is shown couldn't work >correctly), and I think there are some other differences with the mahcines I have. The programming information is not >that clear either (e.g. the section o nthe commands ot the 8042 doesn't explain what the touchscreen diagnostic >command does if there are more than 2 blocked beams) Yes but it's better then nothing... >-tony -Rik From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 16:45:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 17:45:33 -0500 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <003601cbb692$ae8d08f0$0ba71ad0$@xs4all.nl> References: <004b01cbb5c9$c84cc740$58e655c0$@xs4all.nl> <003601cbb692$ae8d08f0$0ba71ad0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > No but in most cases the working of led's in binary they work or they don't. I would have to counter with two situations of non-binary-fail specific to classic machines: 1) dirt on the LED (especially tobacco smoke residue because it's dark and sticky and gets on everything) 2) LEDs all dim with age. I've had Sun optical mice die because the IR LED was too dim to reflect off the pad and retain enough brightness to be picked up by the IR phototransistor. ISTR the nominal curve is something like a half-life of tens of thousands of hours, and a multplexed array would leave each individual LED on for less of the time than a continuous-on LED as one might find in a Sun optical mouse, but that's just fine-tuning the time when they will eventually dim to the point that detection is erratic or non-existent. For a first-cut diagnostic, viewing the IR LED side could be useful, but even though I do own an HP IR-LED touchscreen frame (purchased as a loose item at the Dayton Hamfest many years ago) and have a general sense of how it works, I wouldn't be sure what the duty cycle for an individual LED is - if I saw none lit, I couldn't be sure if that was a global fault, or perhaps they just weren't on long enough to visually register. Having a working unit to compare against could help mitigate that. I agree if you spot one or two dim LEDs and the rest bright enough to see clearly, there's a reason to investigate that specific symptom, but the absence of that doesn't tell me as much. -ethan From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 20:15:31 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:15:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple A/UX install - SOLVED In-Reply-To: <4D345F01.90906@gmail.com> References: <4D345F01.90906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Here's the odd part: With the original Apple-branded OEM Quantum drive >> (which I do not want to overwrite) on the SCSI bus the installer >> recognizes the CD-ROM and is willing to begin the process. However, with >> any of the third-party hard drives in the system it is unable to >> recognize _anything_ on the SCSI bus - doesn't see the hard disk or the >> CD-ROM. I've checked and double-checked the jumpering on the hard disk >> and it's not conflicting with the CD-ROM. Both the IBM and Fujitsu are >> fairly run-of-the-mill 50-pin SCSI units. > > Did you only check the SCSI ID jumpers, or did you also check the termination > and termination power jumpers? Multiple devices providing terminator power > can sometimes cause this symptom, especially if the SCSI bus arbiter is a bit > sensitive. Thanks to all who responded! It turned out to be two problems: - Active termination. I've run into this before and should have remembered. Turning on termination at the drive (at least with IBM drives) simply renders the entire bus non-functional. - Synchronous negotiation. This was the default setting for both drives and it apparently must be disabled. Once I made those two changes together, bingo! Back to life. I'm busy installing A/UX right now. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 17 20:45:51 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:45:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update ? Message-ID: Can someone help me out with the above? All the copies I've been able to find on the net have an md5sum consistent with a known-bad image. Thanks in advance. Steve -- From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 17 21:07:56 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:07:56 -0500 Subject: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update ? References: Message-ID: <831FE93881B440A39AC0B23A1C3B81CC@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Hirsch" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 9:45 PM Subject: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update ? > Can someone help me out with the above? All the copies I've been able to > find on the net have an md5sum consistent with a known-bad image. > > Thanks in advance. > > Steve > > > -- > I imaged mine (original) a while back and uploaded it to a FTP site that was supposed to be up forever (lasted a month). If you have some place to dump it email me back and I will dig it up. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Jan 17 21:58:10 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 21:58:10 -0600 Subject: Running TSX-Plus under SIMH? Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone has tried to run TSX-Plus under SIMH? Thanks to another list member, I was able to obtain a copy of the version 6.50 distribution (on "simulated floppy"). It took me all afternoon to re-learn how to use EDIT (which *really* makes you appreciate modern full-screen editors!) and modify TSGEN.MAC. I set it up to match the existing settings of my DLV11/16D card (whichappears as two DLV11's). TSGEN assembles without errors. There are some linker errors though, but the manual says at least some of them are to be expected. I copied the new TSX files and RT11SJ 4.0 over to the simulated RL02 and boot from it. RT-11 boots normally. But when attempting to execute TSX.SAV, SIMH gives an error and halts... I can't see anything wrong with the system generation but it's a lot of work to create a pack with VTServer for the new hardware if it's got a bug. I'm wondering if SIMH can't handle the time-sharing stuff or lack of a simulated DHV11 card. Any thoughts? thanks Charles From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Jan 17 22:02:45 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 22:02:45 -0600 Subject: Still looking for LaserJet lower cassette Message-ID: <554aj6hc5lnbl4t7iemg31qrnh520mnqc1@4ax.com> I'm still trying to locate the "Optional Lower Cassette" for my HP LaserJet IIp+ (that holds 250 sheets of paper and fits underneath the printer (instead of feeding them 20-30 at a time through the front door). Anyone have a "parts" IIp from which I can buy the cassette & paper tray? thanks Charles From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jan 17 22:06:17 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:06:17 -0800 Subject: Looking for: Sun 3/150 or 4/150 Message-ID: <4D3511B9.7000106@mail.msu.edu> Title says it all; I'm basically looking for a VME-based Sun workstation with 5 or 6 slots -- something that's a nice middle ground between the cramped 3-slot machines and the huge 12 and 16-slot ones. It doesn't have to be complete or running, but a working power supply would be helpful... I'm trying to find a suitable host for my Symbolics UX400 (a VME-based lisp coprocessor for old Sun machines), and the Sun 3/140 I have doesn't seem to be able to keep the UX400 cool enough (it crashes quite frequently). Anyone (preferably local to Seattle) have something that fits the bill going spare? I can trade a bunch of Sun3 hardware :). - Josh From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jan 18 04:10:03 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:10:03 +0100 (CET) Subject: HP 8018A heath sink getting hot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Older equipment should have power supply (and elsewhere) electrolytic >> capacitors tested/replaced as the average capacitor life span is only a >> couple of thousand hours (2,000 hr). An ESR meter might help here...or > > I really cn't beliueve it's that short. 2000 hours is less than 100 days. > Which, given a reaosnable usage period of the equipment (say 8 hours a > dayu on average) would suggest that on average an electrolytic capacitor > would need replacing after 1 year. I fully agree with Tony... replacing electrolytics just because of their age is a very premature task. Today's SMPS and PC mainboards are another story where you can literally see how the caps are failing (too much HF stress and heat). Christian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 09:13:08 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:13:08 -0600 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: <2D49AEDA3BBE4081926D9B6AD9F643FF@tegp4> References: <2D49AEDA3BBE4081926D9B6AD9F643FF@tegp4> Message-ID: <4D35AE04.7070905@gmail.com> Tom Gardner wrote: > I believe it was the first HDD of any sort to use a floppy disk type of > interface. It was followed by the SA1000 interface, which in turn became > the ubiquitous industry standard ST506 interface. Since it was first, it is > not surprising that it had problems, many of which it inherited from the > Shugart floppy interfaces it was trying to resemble so as to reduce design > in times. Was it really done that way because it was supposed to look just like a big floppy at the interface level? Is that actually documented somewhere? What would be needed to add a parallel address interface? A counter, comparator, maybe a latch for the address? Anyone care to estimate parts cost to have done it that way at period prices vs. what an actual drive cost? I suspect it wouldn't have added a significant amount to the cost, which does perhaps suggest that it was done the way it was on purpose. cheers Jules From cctech at vax-11.org Tue Jan 18 09:18:43 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 08:18:43 -0700 (MST) Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: For a while now I have been pondering Usenet as a long term, offsite, distributed backup facility. Most of the premium servers are over two years of archive, with pretty decent reliability. Spot checks of files posted over two years ago still indicate 100% article availability. Basically, I propose we select a low-traffic group which is available on most premium servers, and start posting software/documentation to it in a standard rar/par2 format. And somewhat standardized naming conventions. If a file was posted two or three times over the span of a month, then reposted every year we can be almost assured the files would be available to enthusiasts for many years to come. Comments? Clint >> Can someone help me out with the above? All the copies I've been able to >> find on the net have an md5sum consistent with a known-bad image. >> >> Thanks in advance. >> >> Steve >> >> >> -- >> > > I imaged mine (original) a while back and uploaded it to a FTP site that was > supposed to be up forever (lasted a month). If you have some place to dump > it email me back and I will dig it up. From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 18 09:53:33 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:53:33 -0500 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] Message-ID: Clint writes: > For a while now I have been pondering Usenet as a long term, offsite, > distributed backup facility. Most of the premium servers are over two > years of archive, with pretty decent reliability. Spot checks of > files posted over two years ago still indicate 100% article availability. > Basically, I propose we select a low-traffic group which is available on > most premium servers, and start posting software/documentation to it in a > standard rar/par2 format. And somewhat standardized naming conventions. > If a file was posted two or three times over the span of a month, then > reposted every year we can be almost assured the files would be available > to enthusiasts for many years to come. Seems to me, not that different than Cantor and Siegel's Usenet Spam. As in, it's technically possible to do something, so it's OK to do it. Misusing Usenet, not a good idea. Now posting it to a binary warez newsgroup, I don't see much harm in that. Worst case, somebody might complain that what you're posting is not illegal or a copyright violation and therefore you shouldn't do it. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 18 10:57:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:57:11 -0700 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: Jay West makes server and disk space available for appropriate vintage computing purposes. BitSavers also archives "bits" and not just documentation. The only reason why I'd imagine you don't want to use either of these existing services is because you know the stuff you want to archive violates someone's copyright and that they actually pursue violators. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 18 11:03:23 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:03:23 -0600 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201101181711.p0IHBYVk042529@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:53 AM 1/18/2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >Now posting it to a binary warez newsgroup, I don't see much harm in that. Worst case, somebody might complain that what you're posting is not illegal or a copyright violation and therefore you shouldn't do it. Thank you for starting my day with a good belly-laugh. - John From keithvz at verizon.net Tue Jan 18 11:59:36 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:59:36 -0500 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4D35D508.6010304@verizon.net> On 1/18/2011 11:57 AM, Richard wrote: > Jay West makes server and disk space available for appropriate vintage > computing purposes. BitSavers also archives "bits" and not just > documentation. > > The only reason why I'd imagine you don't want to use either of these > existing services is because you know the stuff you want to archive > violates someone's copyright and that they actually pursue violators. Have you checked out Freenet? I need to play with it as well, but the concepts are pretty interesting. And I think its quite applicable to your requirement. At least from an academic perspective, as long as the data is re-inserted regularly, or being downloaded by different people, it should remain online forever. http://freenetproject.org/faq.html The anonymity and free nature makes it interesting. I think from a practical perspective, simply seeding the data once with bittorrent on a popular tracker usually works for rare stuff. The more rare something is (provided there's still SOME interest) in it, the more people will go out of their way to make sure it's available. You may only have 1/2 dozen seeders at any given time, but that's usually enough. Even for 10gb sized downloads. While trying to avoid a personal attack from mr. grumpypants(which is usually swift), I find it a damn shame that some people would rather have this stuff fade into oblivion by not having it available for distribution (and hence preventing one fairly strong method for preservation/archiving) than allow many future generations to enjoy and make further use of it. Keith From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 18 12:40:13 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 10:40:13 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: <4D35AE04.7070905@gmail.com> References: <2D49AEDA3BBE4081926D9B6AD9F643FF@tegp4> <4D35AE04.7070905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D35DE8D.6090205@brouhaha.com> On 01/18/2011 07:13 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Was it really done that way because it was supposed to look just like a > big floppy at the interface level? Is that actually documented somewhere? Yes, the manuals for the SA4000 and SA1000 series specifically state that the control interface is intended to be similar to that of a floppy drive. Even had they not stated that, it is completely obvious looking at the signal descriptions. > What would be needed to add a parallel address interface? A counter, > comparator, maybe a latch for the address? Anyone care to estimate > parts cost to have done it that way at period prices vs. what an actual > drive cost? I suspect it wouldn't have added a significant amount to the > cost, which does perhaps suggest that it was done the way it was on purpose. Of course it was done that way on purpose. Why have counters on each drive, when you can put them on the controller instead? It's not like these things had voice coil actuators. The seek was going to be slow regardless of where the counters were. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 18 12:10:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:10:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <4D34AF48.6020803@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 17, 11 09:06:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 17/01/11 19:12, Tony Duell wrote: > > 'ANY camera'? I think finding IR film for some of my cameras would be a > > challenge to say the least... > > Ilford SFX200 might work... > > I've got two rolls of the stuff in the fridge, and an IR filter. One of > these days I'll load the EOS33v with it and have a play... That's why I said 'some of my cameras' :-). I assume it's available in 35mm cassettes, maybe 120 roll film or 5*4 sheet film. But I doubt very much if you cna get it in 110 or 126 cartridges. 127 roll film. 16mm Minolta/Keiv Vega cartridges. Minox cartridges. 16mm cassettes for a Narciss. And so on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 18 12:13:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:13:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <003601cbb692$ae8d08f0$0ba71ad0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 17, 11 11:05:36 pm Message-ID: > > > > > I'll use an old video cam to see witch LED isn't sending, Sony has an > > excellent 'night view"mode witch is very IR sensitive. > > >I can think of at least 3 problems with that approach : > > >1) It only checks the emitters, not the detectors (or the path through the > 4051 muxes) > > Yes I know, but it is excluding the most obvious faults (the led's). AAcutally, I would think the most obvious fault would be dirt build-up on the opto-devices. Which a video camera won't detect if it's on the phototransistors, and while you might see that one LED looks dimmer than it should do, wil lyou know if it's the dirt is dimming it too much to work? > >3) I am not sure my video camera has much sensitivity in the IR. It depends > on which vidicon is fitted, I think. > > Yes, stupid of me I should have known, mea culpa ;-) I cna't beelive you've forgotten my taste for older devices :-) > > > Do you have the HP 150 technical reference ? > > >Yes, and the HP150-II suplement. > > >I don't find it that good. The schematics are incomplete, there's at least > one error (in that what is shown couldn't work >correctly), and I think > there are some other differences with the mahcines I have. The programming > information is not >that clear either (e.g. the section o nthe commands ot > the 8042 doesn't explain what the touchscreen diagnostic >command does if > there are more than 2 blocked beams) > > Yes but it's better then nothing... It is, indeed. I am just warning you to take care and not follow the manual blindly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 18 12:18:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:18:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 17, 11 05:45:33 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > > No but in most cases the working of led's in binary they work or they don't. > > I would have to counter with two situations of non-binary-fail > specific to classic machines: > > 1) dirt on the LED (especially tobacco smoke residue because it's dark > and sticky and gets on everything) Which I suspect is one of the most common problems with the HP150 tocuchscreen. The optodevices are down little plastic tubes, so at least for the ones along the bottom edge of the screen (LEDs for the horizontal axis IIRC), then can easily collect dirt. Of course sticky smoke residue can collect on any of them (no, I don't smoke, and I won't allow it near any of my machines, but I haven't owned this machine from new). > > 2) LEDs all dim with age. I've had Sun optical mice die because the > IR LED was too dim to reflect off the pad and retain enough brightness > to be picked up by the IR phototransistor. ISTR the nominal curve is > something like a half-life of tens of thousands of hours, and a > multplexed array would leave each individual LED on for less of the > time than a continuous-on LED as one might find in a Sun optical Yes, but a multipexed array also runs the LEDs at a much higher peak current, which may make things worsde than you'd expect from the duty cycle. > mouse, but that's just fine-tuning the time when they will eventually > dim to the point that detection is erratic or non-existent. > > For a first-cut diagnostic, viewing the IR LED side could be useful, > but even though I do own an HP IR-LED touchscreen frame (purchased as > a loose item at the Dayton Hamfest many years ago) and have a general > sense of how it works, I wouldn't be sure what the duty cycle for an > individual LED is - if I saw none lit, I couldn't be sure if that was I think it's a lot less than you'd expect. The LED is turned on by a monostable on the touchscreen board (at lesat in the orignial HP150 version), and from waht I remeebr it's only one for a small fraction of the time taken to scna that LED. And then there are 36 or so LEDs to scan through. I would have to look up the monostable timing and the scan clock freqeuncy if you rally want to know the duty cycle, but ti could be around 1:1000 -tony From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 18 13:18:15 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:18:15 -0500 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] Message-ID: Jules asks: > What would be needed to add a parallel address interface? I believe that could be called the WD1003 :-) In terms of cabling economy parallel cylinder select has some big disadvantages. Not that step-in-step-out cylinder select is awful efficient after you get to having multiple drive systems either (thus ESDI which used similar cabling but much more efficiently). Isn't it wonderful the way the pendulum swings? First parallel cylinder select (e.g. SMD and other bus and tag type address interfaces), then step in/out cylinder select (e.g. SA4000/SA1000/ST-506) and serial cylinder select (e.g. ESDI), then parallel cylinder select (e.g. IDE/ATA/SCSI), then serial cylinder select (e.g. SATA). Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 18 13:45:21 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 11:45:21 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D357D51.15771.588EE6@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2011 at 14:18, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Isn't it wonderful the way the pendulum swings? First parallel > cylinder select (e.g. SMD and other bus and tag type address > interfaces), then step in/out cylinder select (e.g. > SA4000/SA1000/ST-506) and serial cylinder select (e.g. ESDI), then > parallel cylinder select (e.g. IDE/ATA/SCSI), then serial cylinder > select (e.g. SATA). It would seem to be more a matter of "smarts on the disk drive" than anything. IDE/SCSI and SATA all have controllers on the drive and so have no dedicated signal lines for positioning. In particular IDE/SATA LBA and SCSI don't require any knowledge of the drive geometry, other than the sector size and the total number of sectors. with ST506/412 and ESDI, the "smarts" were still external to the drive. Earlier drives had some smarts in the drive, particularly for positioning, which doubtless contributed significantly to the price of the drive. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 18 14:38:32 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 12:38:32 -0800 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f2d9ba86145eabc46976ceac0995a83@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 18, at 10:18 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On Mon, Jan 17, 2011 at 5:05 PM, Rik Bos wrote: >>> No but in most cases the working of led's in binary they work or >>> they don't. >> >> I would have to counter with two situations of non-binary-fail >> specific to classic machines: >> >> 1) dirt on the LED (especially tobacco smoke residue because it's dark >> and sticky and gets on everything) > > Which I suspect is one of the most common problems with the HP150 > tocuchscreen. The optodevices are down little plastic tubes, so at > least > for the ones along the bottom edge of the screen (LEDs for the > horizontal > axis IIRC), then can easily collect dirt. Of course sticky smoke > residue > can collect on any of them (no, I don't smoke, and I won't allow it > near > any of my machines, but I haven't owned this machine from new). > >> >> 2) LEDs all dim with age. I've had Sun optical mice die because the >> IR LED was too dim to reflect off the pad and retain enough brightness >> to be picked up by the IR phototransistor. ISTR the nominal curve is >> something like a half-life of tens of thousands of hours, and a >> multplexed array would leave each individual LED on for less of the >> time than a continuous-on LED as one might find in a Sun optical > > Yes, but a multipexed array also runs the LEDs at a much higher peak > current, which may make things worsde than you'd expect from the duty > cycle. LED's typically run at a higher peak current for visual displays where the objective is to bring up the average energy output to achieve the same 'brightness' for perception by the human eye. In an application such as that at issue though, the instantaneous output from the LED is what matters to the opposing phototransistor/diode. The 'normal' LED current may well be enough (or even more than enough). I wouldn't expect even a 1:1000 duty cycle to be an issue. The peak current requirements could go either way, depending on the sensitivity of the detectors. As to the original question, what about just hacking up an IR phototransistor/diode or an IR receiver/amp module to a scope, manually run it past the LED holes looking for activity (the modules may not provide much indication of relative output though, just presence/absence). Similarly, power up an IR LED and run it past the holes of the detectors and look for activity/change on the detectors data line. >> mouse, but that's just fine-tuning the time when they will eventually >> dim to the point that detection is erratic or non-existent. >> >> For a first-cut diagnostic, viewing the IR LED side could be useful, >> but even though I do own an HP IR-LED touchscreen frame (purchased as >> a loose item at the Dayton Hamfest many years ago) and have a general >> sense of how it works, I wouldn't be sure what the duty cycle for an >> individual LED is - if I saw none lit, I couldn't be sure if that was > > I think it's a lot less than you'd expect. The LED is turned on by a > monostable on the touchscreen board (at lesat in the orignial HP150 > version), and from waht I remeebr it's only one for a small fraction of > the time taken to scna that LED. And then there are 36 or so LEDs to > scan > through. I would have to look up the monostable timing and the scan > clock > freqeuncy if you rally want to know the duty cycle, but ti could be > around 1:1000 > > -tony > From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 18 14:44:31 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:44:31 -0500 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] Message-ID: Chuck writes: On 18 Jan 2011 at 14:18, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Isn't it wonderful the way the pendulum swings? First parallel >> cylinder select (e.g. SMD and other bus and tag type address >> interfaces), then step in/out cylinder select (e.g. >> SA4000/SA1000/ST-506) and serial cylinder select (e.g. ESDI), then >> parallel cylinder select (e.g. IDE/ATA/SCSI), then serial cylinder >> select (e.g. SATA). > It would seem to be more a matter of "smarts on the disk drive" than > anything. IDE/SCSI and SATA all have controllers on the drive and so > have no dedicated signal lines for positioning. In particular > IDE/SATA LBA and SCSI don't require any knowledge of the drive > geometry, other than the sector size and the total number of sectors. > > with ST506/412 and ESDI, the "smarts" were still external to the > drive. There's a difference between what the interface doesn't require a drive To do, and what the most common drive implementations actually do. (I do agree that IDE LBA and SCSI, allowing a disk to be addressed as a "big bunch of blocks", are substantially more sophisticated than purely Physical interfaces.) You might be surprised at how smart many drives were even though they were Using the "not so smart" ST1000, ST-506 or floppy interfaces. e.g. the cabling may only have "Step in" and "Step out" but on the drive the drive itself is counting which cylinder its in to apply appropriate precompensation. E.g. LSI Shugart floppy drives. Any ST-506 non-stepper-motor drive knew what cylinder it was on thanks To internal logic. The SA1000 explicitly defined "buffered step mode" whereby the step Commands on the interface could come in way faster than the physical stepper Could move, and a counter on the drive played out the steps later. So on The very first implementation, the drive was already smarter than the interface Would imply. Tim. From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 18 16:15:46 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 14:15:46 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82FE0362A4344A959E04FECDFD363EE1@tegp4> > Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:13:08 -0600 > From: Jules Richardson > Subject: Re: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4D35AE04.7070905 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed > > Tom Gardner wrote: > > I believe it was the first HDD of any sort to use a floppy disk type of > > interface. It was followed by the SA1000 interface, which in turn > > became the ubiquitous industry standard ST506 interface. Since it was > > first, it is not surprising that it had problems, > > many of which it inherited from the Shugart floppy interfaces > > it was trying to resemble so as to reduce design in times. > > Was it really done that way because it was supposed to look just like a > big floppy at the interface level? That is my understanding from the folks at Shugart who did it. >Is that actually documented somewhere? Possibly, how important is it to find it on paper? It was explicitly stated as an objective of the next generation, SA1000, "Command signals for the SA1000 use the same pin configuration as its floppy counterpart. Data signals are handled through a different data separator because of the higher transfer rates" ED 9/13/1979 > What would be needed to add a parallel address interface? Probably could make it look like an SMD interface with a microcontroller. Tom From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 16:50:03 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 16:50:03 -0600 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: <82FE0362A4344A959E04FECDFD363EE1@tegp4> References: <82FE0362A4344A959E04FECDFD363EE1@tegp4> Message-ID: <4D36191B.7010708@gmail.com> Tom Gardner wrote: >> Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 09:13:08 -0600 >> From: Jules Richardson >> Subject: Re: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Message-ID: <4D35AE04.7070905 at gmail.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed >> >> Tom Gardner wrote: >>> I believe it was the first HDD of any sort to use a floppy disk type of >>> interface. It was followed by the SA1000 interface, which in turn >>> became the ubiquitous industry standard ST506 interface. Since it was >>> first, it is not surprising that it had problems, >>> many of which it inherited from the Shugart floppy interfaces >>> it was trying to resemble so as to reduce design in times. >> Was it really done that way because it was supposed to look just like a >> big floppy at the interface level? > That is my understanding from the folks at Shugart who did it. > > >> Is that actually documented somewhere? > Possibly, how important is it to find it on paper? Oh, I'm happy to take your word for it :-) I just wondered if it were speculation that it was done intentionally, or based on something read/remembered from the time (because a desire to keep the interface simple, or economical constraints, or pre-existing technical knowledge from floppy drives, might also have arrived at the same solution) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 18 17:01:02 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 17:01:02 -0600 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4D361BAE.60104@gmail.com> cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > For a while now I have been pondering Usenet as a long term, offsite, > distributed backup facility. Most of the premium servers are over two > years of archive, with pretty decent reliability. Spot checks of files > posted over two years ago still indicate 100% article availability. I've been making that joke for years, but people normally don't find it funny ;-) > Comments? The sheer amount of data will kill you, I suspect; I've always thought the concept workable* for small amounts of data split over lots of messages on an individual basis, but if lots of people are doing it and the 'files' being posted are quite large, it'd become unwieldy and providers will start killing messages (and accounts). * from a technical point of view. I certainly wouldn't actually *do* it :-) Even before the days of deja's archive, it would have been possible to 'refresh' data on a continual basis to get around issues of article expiry. Sort of like a giant network-attached bank of DRAM. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 18 17:07:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:07:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <20110118145514.S53830@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 18 Jan 2011 cctech at vax-11.org wrote: > For a while now I have been pondering Usenet as a long term, offsite, > distributed backup facility. Most of the premium servers are over two > years of archive, with pretty decent reliability. Spot checks of > files posted over two years ago still indicate 100% article availability. TWO YEARS is NOT what we would consider to be "long term"! That is SHORT term. > Basically, I propose we select a low-traffic group which is available on > most premium servers, and start posting software/documentation to it in a > standard rar/par2 format. And somewhat standardized naming conventions. START your own group. Do NOT hijack and flood somebody else's group! The few people using the low-traffic group might not enjoy having massive amounts of off-topic stuff raining down on them. It is still SPAM, even if it is not "commercial". > If a file was posted two or three times over the span of a month, then > reposted every year we can be almost assured the files would be available > to enthusiasts for many years to come. Reposting annually would, indeed, be needed. But, the current problem is already that people don't follow up and maintain their data files years later. If you have people willing to make that kind of commitment, then a few websites, plus distribution of CDs, DVDs, and whatever comes next would accomplish the same thing, and would survive the total loss of any one collection. Think Don Maslin (R.I.P.) Usenet is not as readily available as it once was. Will that trend continue? Do you really think that it will be publicly and commonly available in 10 or 20 years? Look at gopher! Other than those, it would at least be a start. Howzbout: steganography within certain pictures, glurge, and urban legends -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 18 17:14:24 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:14:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: <20110118145514.S53830@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 18, 11 03:07:00 pm" Message-ID: <201101182314.p0INEO4c018506@floodgap.com> > Usenet is not as readily available as it once was. Will that trend > continue? Do you really think that it will be publicly and commonly > available in 10 or 20 years? Look at gopher! *pats Gopher server in rack* -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 18 17:32:26 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:32:26 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D35B28A.23706.1287668@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2011 at 15:44, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > There's a difference between what the interface doesn't require a > drive To do, and what the most common drive implementations actually > do. Agreed. I've got a 5.25" floppy drive with the tranditional 34- position SA-450 interface that can do buffered seeks. Similarly, the Drivetec floppy drives were very complicated in that department, not only using buffered seeks, but also embedded servo. But the floppy interface only *requires* at a minimum, "step", "direction" and "track 0"--and some drives don't even require track 0 and a drive using the interface can be dumb as a stump. I don't think anyone has mentioned that the SA4000 was remarkable in that it was a hard disk that used a stepper motor as a positioner. Up until that time, every hard drive I know of used either some sort of servo or mechanical adder (e.g. Univac FASTRAND (okay, it's a drum, but a movable head drum) or Bryant 4000). A hard drive using a stepper was extremely unusual before the SA4000. My own SA4008 uses a controller on a PC board that has nearly the same footprint as the drive itself. It's pretty much all SSI/MSI TTL and ends in a GPIB interface. No microprocessors/microcontrollers. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 18 17:36:17 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 15:36:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth (fwd) Message-ID: I figured that someone here who's not on the Sunhelp list might appreciate this. David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 17 Jan 2011 20:21:26 -0500 From: Patrick Giagnocavo Reply-To: The Rescue List To: The Rescue List Subject: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth Some of you here know that I recycle old PC motherboards, etc. though whenever possible I try to divert anything valuable/historical out of the melt-it-down pile. I have many pounds, well over 100lbs., of DEC PDP "flip chip" modules. I have to charge for them, but would like to sell all of them, all at once, to 1 person if possible, at a per-lb price ($8 per lb). Given that these flip chip modules are not very heavy this works out to well under $2 each, I think. Some are in original plastic shrink wrap, but most are not, and have been exposed to moisture but are otherwise complete; some have had the resistors or capacitors on them "weep" which means they would have to be replaced by someone competent with a soldering iron. A random listing of the few that I pulled out: A123 A206 A207 G728 K012 K026 K028 K123 K124 K134 K161 K202 K210 K303 K683 M113 M1502 M155 M207 M230 M502 M652 M7264 M783 M7941 M920 M974 There are many more. Are there any PDP collectors on this list - I know there used to be but perhaps this stuff is just too old these days. Cordially Patrick Giagnocavo patrick at zill.net _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 18 17:59:56 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:59:56 -0500 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: <201101182314.p0INEO4c018506@floodgap.com> References: <201101182314.p0INEO4c018506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D36297C.8050407@neurotica.com> On 1/18/11 6:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Usenet is not as readily available as it once was. Will that trend >> continue? Do you really think that it will be publicly and commonly >> available in 10 or 20 years? Look at gopher! > > *pats Gopher server in rack* Bravo! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Tue Jan 18 18:06:47 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:06:47 -0600 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? Message-ID: I'm pulling my hair out... trying to get an old PC with two COM ports to work with VTServer. Setup: WinXP, AMD K6/300 CPU. Serial mouse is plugged into the DE-9 connector and it's COM1. There is a DB-25 connector on COM2. I can use MS-DOS COPY/B to send binary files out the COM2 port, so I know COM2 works. Unfortunately, after examining the C source code of VTserver, it appears that it is hard-coded to use COM1 only. The comments are interesting ;) >void open_port() >{ >#ifdef _MSC_VER > /* The following is sort of like APL. If I have to explain it to you, you don't deserve to know. */ > /* Actually, I copied most of it from the examples, and I don't understand it that well myself */ > > DCB dcb; > struct _COMMTIMEOUTS TO = {MAXDWORD,MAXDWORD,1,2,1000}; /* NOTE -- timeouts are hard wired for 9600 baud or higher */ > > fprintf(stderr,"Opening port %s .... ", port); fflush(stderr); > > portfd = CreateFile("COM1:",GENERIC_READ|GENERIC_WRITE,0,0,OPEN_EXISTING,FILE_FLAG_OVERLAPPED,0); > if(portfd == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE) > { > fprintf(stderr, "can't open COM1:"); > exit(1); > } Not surprisingly, even when using an initialization line (in the .vtrc setup file) of MODE COM2:19200,n,8,1 which does setup the COM2 port properly, VTserver then outputs to the console: "Opening port COM2:.... can't open COM1:" Aaarrrgh!!! I CANNOT get WinXP and this particular motherboard/BIOS to put the damn mouse on COM2 so I can use COM1. IIRC I encountered this problem years ago when last using VTserver, but that was on a different and even older Win98 PC, and finally did manage to put the mouse on the other port. So the only other fix is to recompile VTserver to use port 2, and I don't even think I have a C compiler let alone any experience using it. Can someone *please* patch VTserver so I can use COM2 instead? thanks for any help! -Charles From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 18 18:36:08 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:36:08 -0600 Subject: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth (fwd) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201101190045.p0J0jq5n061322@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 05:36 PM 1/18/2011, David Griffith wrote: >I figured that someone here who's not on the Sunhelp list might appreciate this. Interesting! Just this weekend I bid on an old flip-chip core memory on eBay. Is there a site that would explain the function of these card numbers? $8/pound for circuit boards? - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 18 19:25:27 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:25:27 -0500 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] Message-ID: <4D363D87.7040403@neurotica.com> On 1/18/11 6:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you have people willing to make that kind of commitment, then a > few websites, plus distribution of CDs, DVDs, and whatever comes > nextwould accomplish the same thing, and would survive the total loss > of any one collection. Think Don Maslin (R.I.P.) Yeah. Using Usenet as an archiving mechanism is one of the worst ideas I've heard in a very long time. The real solution to this problem is a few people with grownup networks (i.e., people with static IP addresses who aren't afraid to actually run some computers, or someone with a machine in colo space) to set up rsync run from a cron job. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jan 18 20:31:06 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:31:06 -0800 Subject: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201101190045.p0J0jq5n061322@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201101190045.p0J0jq5n061322@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: At 6:36 PM -0600 1/18/11, John Foust wrote: >At 05:36 PM 1/18/2011, David Griffith wrote: > >>I figured that someone here who's not on the Sunhelp list might >>appreciate this. > >Interesting! Just this weekend I bid on an old flip-chip core memory >on eBay. Is there a site that would explain the function of these >card numbers? > >$8/pound for circuit boards? > >- John One thing I noticed in reading that was that I'd want to see some photo's. Just what condition are the boards in? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From jws at jwsss.com Wed Jan 19 00:07:19 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 22:07:19 -0800 Subject: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth (fwd) In-Reply-To: <201101190045.p0J0jq5n061322@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201101190045.p0J0jq5n061322@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D367F97.7060701@jwsss.com> ne here who's not on the Sunhelp list might appreciate this. > Interesting! Just this weekend I bid on an old flip-chip core memory > on eBay. Is there a site that would explain the function of these card numbers? > > $8/pound for circuit boards? > > - John I'm helping a friend sell off a lot of old Dell motherboards hopefully for use in systems, but the bottom line blowout price for modern server motherboards is $5 / # from a scrapper here in Orange county, ca. So I can't sell a lot for less than that on epay. also no bidders, but have sold at least one tape drive from the lot. Jim From paul_koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 18 05:47:08 2011 From: paul_koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 06:47:08 -0500 Subject: Fwd: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth References: Message-ID: <2597716D-E397-42FE-814E-022F1DC5F249@dell.com> Figured this might be of interest... paul Begin forwarded message: > Date: January 17, 2011 9:23:22 PM EST > To: pkoning at equallogic.com > Subject: Fwd: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth > > Forwarded in case you know anyone who collects real PDP iron out there... > > john > > > Begin forwarded message: > >> Date: 17 January 2011 20:21:26 EST >> To: The Rescue List >> Subject: [rescue] PDP flip chips and memory boards, many lbs. worth >> Reply-To: The Rescue List >> >> Some of you here know that I recycle old PC motherboards, etc. though >> whenever possible I try to divert anything valuable/historical out of >> the melt-it-down pile. >> >> I have many pounds, well over 100lbs., of DEC PDP "flip chip" modules. >> >> I have to charge for them, but would like to sell all of them, all at >> once, to 1 person if possible, at a per-lb price ($8 per lb). Given >> that these flip chip modules are not very heavy this works out to well >> under $2 each, I think. >> >> Some are in original plastic shrink wrap, but most are not, and have >> been exposed to moisture but are otherwise complete; some have had the >> resistors or capacitors on them "weep" which means they would have to be >> replaced by someone competent with a soldering iron. >> >> A random listing of the few that I pulled out: >> >> A123 >> A206 >> A207 >> G728 >> K012 >> K026 >> K028 >> K123 >> K124 >> K134 >> K161 >> K202 >> K210 >> K303 >> K683 >> M113 >> M1502 >> M155 >> M207 >> M230 >> M502 >> M652 >> M7264 >> M783 >> M7941 >> M920 >> M974 >> >> There are many more. >> >> Are there any PDP collectors on this list - I know there used to be but >> perhaps this stuff is just too old these days. >> >> Cordially >> >> Patrick Giagnocavo >> patrick at zill.net >> _______________________________________________ >> rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue > From nanoman at stny.rr.com Tue Jan 18 20:06:44 2011 From: nanoman at stny.rr.com (N Man) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 21:06:44 -0500 Subject: OT looking for technical data on GE RTV 700 In-Reply-To: <20110118145514.S53830@shell.lmi.net> References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> <20110118145514.S53830@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D364734.5050806@stny.rr.com> Hi, I find this group very resourceful and having access to various documents. I am questing for an old datasheet on GE Silicone RTV 700 (with Beta 1 or Beta 11). I would greatly appreciate getting a copy of the datasheet or a catalog comparison of GE Silicones including RTV 700. Even an old magazine ad would be helpful. I tried GE and Momentive with no luck, As they don't "support" this product any more. I am interested in the technical feature and in particular the high end temperature range. Please forward any information directly to me at nanoman at stny.rr.com Parameter RTV 700 w/ Beta 1 or Beta 11 Mixture 10:1 wt% Color "White" + Blue *Useful Temperature * * * Hardness Shore A Tensile Strength (psi) Elongation (%) Tear Strength (ppi) Thank you in advance. N. Man From matt_marn at optusnet.com.au Wed Jan 19 15:52:48 2011 From: matt_marn at optusnet.com.au (Matt Mckendry) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 13:52:48 -0800 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <0C1E5FD59E0242FBA306D86AB87614BD@UserPC> Hi, I was wondering if you knew how to get a copy or an original manual for the 28-249 200 in 1 electronic project lab, thanks, matt. From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 19 01:34:05 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:34:05 +0100 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4fd00d5b73fac6fdb944f70d5a5f5282.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Well, one quick & dirty way to fix the name is to use a binary editor and replace 'COM1' to 'COM2'. 'bvi' is suchs a program, and it is available for Linux & m$win. Regards, Ed > I'm pulling my hair out... trying to get an old PC with two COM > ports to work with VTServer. > > Setup: WinXP, AMD K6/300 CPU. Serial mouse is plugged into the > DE-9 connector and it's COM1. There is a DB-25 connector on COM2. > I can use MS-DOS COPY/B to send binary files out the COM2 port, so > I know COM2 works. > > Unfortunately, after examining the C source code of VTserver, it > appears that it is hard-coded to use COM1 only. The comments are > interesting ;) > >>void open_port() >>{ >>#ifdef _MSC_VER >> /* The following is sort of like APL. If I have to explain it to you, >> you don't deserve to know. */ >> /* Actually, I copied most of it from the examples, and I don't >> understand it that well myself */ >> >> DCB dcb; >> struct _COMMTIMEOUTS TO = {MAXDWORD,MAXDWORD,1,2,1000}; /* NOTE -- >> timeouts are hard wired for 9600 baud or higher */ >> >> fprintf(stderr,"Opening port %s .... ", port); fflush(stderr); >> >> portfd = >> CreateFile("COM1:",GENERIC_READ|GENERIC_WRITE,0,0,OPEN_EXISTING,FILE_FLAG_OVERLAPPED,0); >> if(portfd == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE) >> { >> fprintf(stderr, "can't open COM1:"); >> exit(1); >> } > > Not surprisingly, even when using an initialization line (in the > .vtrc setup file) of MODE COM2:19200,n,8,1 which does setup the > COM2 port properly, VTserver then outputs to the console: > > "Opening port COM2:.... can't open COM1:" > Aaarrrgh!!! > > I CANNOT get WinXP and this particular motherboard/BIOS to put the > damn mouse on COM2 so I can use COM1. IIRC I encountered this > problem years ago when last using VTserver, but that was on a > different and even older Win98 PC, and finally did manage to put > the mouse on the other port. > > So the only other fix is to recompile VTserver to use port 2, and > I don't even think I have a C compiler let alone any experience > using it. Can someone *please* patch VTserver so I can use COM2 > instead? > > thanks for any help! > -Charles > > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 19 01:35:17 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:35:17 +0100 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: <4D35D508.6010304@verizon.net> References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> <4D35D508.6010304@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110119073517.GB6410@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 12:59:36PM -0500, Keith M wrote: > I think from a practical perspective, simply seeding the data once > with bittorrent on a popular tracker usually works for rare stuff. > The more rare something is (provided there's still SOME interest) in > it, the more people will go out of their way to make sure it's > available. You may only have 1/2 dozen seeders at any given time, > but that's usually enough. Even for 10gb sized downloads. We (a fellow admin and I) have been talking about mirroring bitsavers (and perhaps other sources) "any day now". Perhaps setting up a tracker and create torrents would be a more sensible use of bandwidth! I see a few issues with it though. 1. On what level should I make the torrent? One per file, one per subdirectory, one per manufacturer? - I'm thinking both subdir and manufacturer. It is then easy to select what files you want from a torrent. 2. How does one handle updates? - I have no clue ... a whole new torrent for one new/changed/deleted file in a directory? Is there such a thing as incremental torrents? 3. Would bitsavers and other agree to be a seed as well? - A critical mass of users is ofcourse necessary. Hmm.. perhaps I should just rsync it and use the existing ftp server. Cheers, Pontus From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 19 02:02:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 00:02:32 -0800 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D362A18.29440.2FB7957@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2011 at 18:06, Charles wrote: > I'm pulling my hair out... trying to get an old PC with two COM > ports to work with VTServer. Just asking the obvious... Have you considered using a PS/2 mouse to free up COM1:? Alternatively, if you're using XP, go to Settings->Control Panel- >System and look at the Resources for COM1: and COM2:. Uncheck the "use automatic settings" box and swap the IRQ and port addresses of COM1: and COM2: That might work... --Chuck From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jan 19 02:11:52 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 09:11:52 +0100 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I patched this some time ago for my own purposes (one PDP-11/23 PLUS connected via serial port to one ACER big laptop) but I don't have it at and actually. Regards Sergio 2011/1/19 Charles > I'm pulling my hair out... trying to get an old PC with two COM > ports to work with VTServer. > > Setup: WinXP, AMD K6/300 CPU. Serial mouse is plugged into the > DE-9 connector and it's COM1. There is a DB-25 connector on COM2. > I can use MS-DOS COPY/B to send binary files out the COM2 port, so > I know COM2 works. > > Unfortunately, after examining the C source code of VTserver, it > appears that it is hard-coded to use COM1 only. The comments are > interesting ;) > > >void open_port() > >{ > >#ifdef _MSC_VER > > /* The following is sort of like APL. If I have to explain it to > you, you don't deserve to know. */ > > /* Actually, I copied most of it from the examples, and I don't > understand it that well myself */ > > > > DCB dcb; > > struct _COMMTIMEOUTS TO = {MAXDWORD,MAXDWORD,1,2,1000}; /* NOTE -- > timeouts are hard wired for 9600 baud or higher */ > > > > fprintf(stderr,"Opening port %s .... ", port); fflush(stderr); > > > > portfd = > CreateFile("COM1:",GENERIC_READ|GENERIC_WRITE,0,0,OPEN_EXISTING,FILE_FLAG_OVERLAPPED,0); > > if(portfd == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE) > > { > > fprintf(stderr, "can't open COM1:"); > > exit(1); > > } > > Not surprisingly, even when using an initialization line (in the > .vtrc setup file) of MODE COM2:19200,n,8,1 which does setup the > COM2 port properly, VTserver then outputs to the console: > > "Opening port COM2:.... can't open COM1:" > Aaarrrgh!!! > > I CANNOT get WinXP and this particular motherboard/BIOS to put the > damn mouse on COM2 so I can use COM1. IIRC I encountered this > problem years ago when last using VTserver, but that was on a > different and even older Win98 PC, and finally did manage to put > the mouse on the other port. > > So the only other fix is to recompile VTserver to use port 2, and > I don't even think I have a C compiler let alone any experience > using it. Can someone *please* patch VTserver so I can use COM2 > instead? > > thanks for any help! > -Charles > From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 19 02:29:21 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 03:29:21 -0500 Subject: Long term publicly accessible backups [Was: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update] In-Reply-To: <20110119073517.GB6410@Update.UU.SE> References: <447E21A9EEB8462EB2474BCA2F449761@andrewdesktop> <4D35D508.6010304@verizon.net> <20110119073517.GB6410@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4D36A0E1.7050808@verizon.net> On 1/19/2011 2:35 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > We (a fellow admin and I) have been talking about mirroring bitsavers > (and perhaps other sources) "any day now". Perhaps setting up a tracker > and create torrents would be a more sensible use of bandwidth! > > I see a few issues with it though. > > 1. On what level should I make the torrent? One per file, one per > subdirectory, one per manufacturer? > > - I'm thinking both subdir and manufacturer. It is then easy to > select what files you want from a torrent. > How big is the stuff you are talking about? I would imagine documentation, which hasn't been converted properly, would probably take up a bunch of room. If we are talking about binaries and such, then space probably isn't a big concern. This really comes back to size for manageability --- you could .rar each manufacturer, and then distribute a torrent of multiple .rar's. Don't make the mistake of having multiple torrents for the whole project. I think that's a mistake. Have one big torrent, with the individual files being selected/selected within the clients. When sharing and redistributing this stuff, I much like to download one huge mama file that contains EVERYTHING. Bandwidth and disk space is pretty cheap these days. Plus, if this ever gets redistributed into the wild, you don't want to end up splitting the content. Right? So maybe they have IBM and DEC (or whatever) but no CPM or whatever. Then people have to try to find the right torrents --- your collection is no longer a full collection. > 2. How does one handle updates? > > - I have no clue ... a whole new torrent for one new/changed/deleted > file in a directory? Is there such a thing as incremental torrents? Have you seen the TOSECs? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TOSEC Not so much for naming per se, but how they distribute them? They basically have a new torrent released for each update -- with each update happening perhaps every 6 months or year. You could just do quarterly updates or something, and release a new torrent that contains the latest files. It's not too hard just to look for the latest .torrent out there. Mame ROMs distribution works the same way. Added a couple more roms to the collection? bump version from .133 to .136 and release a new torrent. Oh, and one last thing on this. You can download one torrent "on top" of an existing directory of a completed torrent. The individual files get hashed.... meaning .133 contains ibm.rar dec.rar and cpm.rar .136 is going to modify cpm.rar but not ibm.rar and dec.rar As long as the directory structure between torrents is consistent, and the download directory is the same --- ibm.rar and dec.rar will be listed as finished with cpm.rar showing inconsistent. You would need to delete the inconsistent(ie older) rar and then restart the download (so the hash re-check occurs) Obviously some of this is torrent-client specific, but I think you could make this work. > > 3. Would bitsavers and other agree to be a seed as well? > > - A critical mass of users is ofcourse necessary. You likely need less than you think. I've seen torrents being kept alive for years with just a handful of seeders. As long as you maintain a couple "official" seeders, you should be fine. Once again comes back to size. > > Hmm.. perhaps I should just rsync it and use the existing ftp server. > > Cheers, > Pontus Yup. Keith From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Jan 19 05:42:08 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 06:42:08 -0500 Subject: Running TSX-Plus under SIMH? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D36CE10.9060701@compsys.to> >Charles Morris wrote: >Just wondering if anyone has tried to run TSX-Plus under SIMH? > I can't think of a reason for your asking this question unless you have attempted to run under SIMH and it does not work. With that assumption, have you tried under Ersatz-11 to see if you have a system (of files on your PC that hold the RT-11 base system which you are using to boot into TSX-Plus) that works correctly as opposed to a system that will not run either RT-11 or TSX-Plus? >Thanks to another list member, I was able to obtain a copy of the >version 6.50 distribution (on "simulated floppy"). It took me all > Personally, I tend to use KED under RT-11 as a full screen editor to look at or modify files. Fortunately, under Ersatz-11, ALL of the KEYPAD keys work correctly, so there is no problem. Perhaps under SIMH that is not the case? >afternoon to re-learn how to use EDIT (which *really* makes you >appreciate modern full-screen editors!) and modify TSGEN.MAC. I set it >up to match the existing settings of my DLV11/16D card (whichappears >as two DLV11's). TSGEN assembles without errors. > > Ersatz-11 also supports multiple DLV11-J cards as well as DHV11 and DZV11 cards. >There are some linker errors though, but the manual says at least some >of them are to be expected. > >I copied the new TSX files and RT11SJ 4.0 over to the simulated RL02 >and boot from it. RT-11 boots normally. But when attempting to execute >TSX.SAV, SIMH gives an error and halts... > > There might be a problem with V04.00 of RT-11 as far as TSX-Plus is concerned. If I remember correctly, TSX-Plus might limit you use of certain hardware devices depending on which version of RT-11 you boot from. >I can't see anything wrong with the system generation but it's a lot >of work to create a pack with VTServer for the new hardware if it's >got a bug. I'm wondering if SIMH can't handle the time-sharing stuff >or lack of a simulated DHV11 card. Any thoughts? > Just again that TSX-Plus may object to which RT-11 version is being used. Since it will be so easy (as far as I know for myself) to download V05.03 of RT-11 and us it to boot TSX-Plus, that may be you next test to try. Jerome Fine From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 06:02:56 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 07:02:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Uncorrupted A/UX 3.1 Update ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 17 Jan 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Can someone help me out with the above? All the copies I've been able to > find on the net have an md5sum consistent with a known-bad image. I am all set. Thanks to those who responded! Steve -- From cctech at vax-11.org Wed Jan 19 09:28:47 2011 From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 08:28:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It looks like you could open the binary up in Emacs, and perform a global search/replace of COM1 with COM2. Clint On Tue, 18 Jan 2011, Charles wrote: > I'm pulling my hair out... trying to get an old PC with two COM > ports to work with VTServer. > > Setup: WinXP, AMD K6/300 CPU. Serial mouse is plugged into the > DE-9 connector and it's COM1. There is a DB-25 connector on COM2. > I can use MS-DOS COPY/B to send binary files out the COM2 port, so > I know COM2 works. > > Unfortunately, after examining the C source code of VTserver, it > appears that it is hard-coded to use COM1 only. The comments are > interesting ;) > >> void open_port() >> { >> #ifdef _MSC_VER >> /* The following is sort of like APL. If I have to explain it to you, you don't deserve to know. */ >> /* Actually, I copied most of it from the examples, and I don't understand it that well myself */ >> >> DCB dcb; >> struct _COMMTIMEOUTS TO = {MAXDWORD,MAXDWORD,1,2,1000}; /* NOTE -- timeouts are hard wired for 9600 baud or higher */ >> >> fprintf(stderr,"Opening port %s .... ", port); fflush(stderr); >> >> portfd = CreateFile("COM1:",GENERIC_READ|GENERIC_WRITE,0,0,OPEN_EXISTING,FILE_FLAG_OVERLAPPED,0); >> if(portfd == INVALID_HANDLE_VALUE) >> { >> fprintf(stderr, "can't open COM1:"); >> exit(1); >> } > > Not surprisingly, even when using an initialization line (in the > .vtrc setup file) of MODE COM2:19200,n,8,1 which does setup the > COM2 port properly, VTserver then outputs to the console: > > "Opening port COM2:.... can't open COM1:" > Aaarrrgh!!! > > I CANNOT get WinXP and this particular motherboard/BIOS to put the > damn mouse on COM2 so I can use COM1. IIRC I encountered this > problem years ago when last using VTserver, but that was on a > different and even older Win98 PC, and finally did manage to put > the mouse on the other port. > > So the only other fix is to recompile VTserver to use port 2, and > I don't even think I have a C compiler let alone any experience > using it. Can someone *please* patch VTserver so I can use COM2 > instead? > > thanks for any help! > -Charles > From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 19 10:03:56 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 11:03:56 -0500 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] Message-ID: Chuck mentions: > I don't think anyone has mentioned that the SA4000 was remarkable in > that it was a hard disk that used a stepper motor as a positioner. > Up until that time, every hard drive I know of used either some sort > of servo or mechanical adder (e.g. Univac FASTRAND (okay, it's a > drum, but a movable head drum) or Bryant 4000). A hard drive using a > stepper was extremely unusual before the SA4000. Without a doubt the stepper motor+band positioner was a huge step forward in economizing microcomputer-oriented hard drives. I figured that chronologically the taut-band floppy drives came first but now that I think about it, maybe the SA4000 came first and the floppy application came later? Certainly stepper-motor use was first in the floppies. At least, AFAIK :-) Tim. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 19 10:22:34 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:22:34 -0600 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:02:58 -0600, you wrote: >Have you considered using a PS/2 mouse to free up COM1:? I am not sure exactly what one is... but this is a very old (relatively speaking) PC; the only jacks on the back panel besides the parallel printer port are the 9-pin COM1: and 25-pin COM2: ports. >Alternatively, if you're using XP, go to Settings->Control Panel- >>System and look at the Resources for COM1: and COM2:. Uncheck the >"use automatic settings" box and swap the IRQ and port addresses of >COM1: and COM2: > >That might work... > >--Chuck Thanks, but I already thought of that and tried it. Then the mouse didn't work :( and Windows is already enough of a PITA before taking away mouse support. Looks like the binary editor may be the best patch! -Charles From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 19 12:02:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:02:10 -0800 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D36B6A2.24531.7879C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2011 at 10:22, Charles wrote: > On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 02:02:58 -0600, you wrote: > > >Have you considered using a PS/2 mouse to free up COM1:? > > I am not sure exactly what one is... but this is a very old > (relatively speaking) PC; the only jacks on the back panel besides the > parallel printer port are the 9-pin COM1: and 25-pin COM2: ports. If you're running XP on it, it can't be that old (unless I've misread your initial description of what you're doing). Even relatively inexpensive P1 systems at least had headers on the motherboard for a PS/2 mouse, if not an outright connector. Many early AT enclosures, however didn't leave a hole next to the keyboard jack for the mouse, so you may want to have a look. If it's an ATX-layout machine, then for certain there's a mouse jack there. --Chuck From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 19 12:14:31 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:14:31 -0600 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 19 Jan 2011 12:00:01 -0600, you wrote: >From: cctech at vax-11.org > >It looks like you could open the binary up in Emacs, and perform a global >search/replace of COM1 with COM2. > >Clint Good idea, suggested by Ed also, so I just tried it. Although VTserver now says it opened COM2:, and starts transmitting (the usual slow scrolling line feeds appear, I don't have it hooked up to the PDP-11)... But. There is nothing actually coming out of the COM2: port! For hardware test purposes, in the MSDOS window "COPY/B COM2:" *does* work correctly (I can see with a scope the serial data coming out on the COM2 TxD pin). More ideas please? thanks -Charles From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 19 12:28:07 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 10:28:07 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D36BCB7.3008.1F48F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2011 at 11:03, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I figured that chronologically the taut-band floppy drives came first > but now that I think about it, maybe the SA4000 came first and the > floppy application came later? > > Certainly stepper-motor use was first in the floppies. At least, AFAIK > :-) I'd have to see which came first on the taut-band issue. I don't recall myself. My own system with the SA4008 had Micropolis leadscrew floppies, but then Micropolis was a holdout. Tandon certainly had taut-band floppies at the time. I did a little searching and it seems that US patent 3,881,189 (Mayeda, filed 1973, published 1975) assigned to Sanyo seems to be the operative one. When I looked up other patents by Mayeda, it turned up 3,900,893 (1974/75) which certainly looks like it's the Bernoulli box mechanism. Funny, I'd always thought of both as US-origin inventions. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 18 12:51:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 18:51:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <9f2d9ba86145eabc46976ceac0995a83@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 18, 11 12:38:32 pm Message-ID: > > Yes, but a multipexed array also runs the LEDs at a much higher peak > > current, which may make things worsde than you'd expect from the duty > > cycle. > > LED's typically run at a higher peak current for visual displays where > the objective is to bring up the average energy output to achieve the > same 'brightness' for perception by the human eye. In an application True. > such as that at issue though, the instantaneous output from the LED is > what matters to the opposing phototransistor/diode. The 'normal' LED > current may well be enough (or even more than enough). I wouldn't > expect even a 1:1000 duty cycle to be an issue. The peak current > requirements could go either way, depending on the sensitivity of the > detectors. The LEDs are wired in a matrix with a ULN2804 driver to ground and a ULN2580 drive to the +10V line. There's a 10 Ohm resistor in series with each of the outputs of one of the drivers. This suggests a peak current of a little under 1A. It is a low duty cycle, my guyess of 1:1000 seems about right. > > As to the original question, what about just hacking up an IR > phototransistor/diode or an IR receiver/amp module to a scope, manually > run it past the LED holes looking for activity (the modules may not > provide much indication of relative output though, just > presence/absence). Possible. But I still think dim beams are a very common problem. > > Similarly, power up an IR LED and run it past the holes of the > detectors and look for activity/change on the detectors data line. It may be less work in the end to make up some kind of tester to plug into the touchscreen PCB and display the status of all the beams... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 19 13:58:30 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 11:58:30 -0800 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: <9f2d9ba86145eabc46976ceac0995a83@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 18, 11 12:38:32 pm, Message-ID: <4D36D1E6.19440.720852@cclist.sydex.com> Re: viewing IR beams. You may be able to borrow an IR sensor card from a friend who works with IR laser equipment. Alternatively, a sensor card can be had for not a lot of money: http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-72-6772-/72- 6772 No electronics involved at all. FWIW, Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jan 19 14:45:08 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:45:08 -0000 Subject: TZ30 tape drive (faulty?) Message-ID: <021e01cbb819$c3d4fdc0$4b7ef940$@ntlworld.com> I recently acquired a TZ30 tape drive. It does not want to load any tapes I put in it. I have never used a TZ30 before so I am not sure how it is supposed to be used. Let me explain what happens: The lock lever is over to the left in the unlocked position. I insert the tape in the slot, but nothing prevents it being pushed out again, I have to hold it in place while I move the lock lever across. This does not feel right, but I don't know, is it supposed to stay in place without me having to hold it there? While I am holding the tape in place the green light comes on and does not flash. After moving the lever to the lock position the lights flash a few moments and then the green light flashes to tell me there is a problem with the tape. However the drive mechanism makes no attempt to load the tape (I can see this because I have the cover of the system removed). It strikes me that the drive is faulty, but it could be user error. Can someone tell me if I am doing it right, and if I am, does anyone know of any well-known faults that might cause this? Thanks Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 18 14:39:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2011 20:39:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <4D36D1E6.19440.720852@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 19, 11 11:58:30 am Message-ID: > > Re: viewing IR beams. > > You may be able to borrow an IR sensor card from a friend who works > with IR laser equipment. Alternatively, a sensor card can be had for > not a lot of money: I wonder how such a card would manage with light pulses foa few us and a 1000:1 duty cycle... I do have an electronic IR handset tester, built from the Maplin keit many years ago. IR photodiode + A few trasnsitors driveing an LED. I think there's an RC pulse stretcher circuit in there too. Runs off one of those 12V batteries that are a bit smaller than an N cell (and FWIW, it still runs on the battery I put in when I built it). I could try that, but I am not sure it't tell me much... > http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-72-6772-/72- > 6772 I suspext (without checking) that the shipping would cost more than the device... -tony From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jan 19 16:20:21 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:20:21 -0800 Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Wher3e is the source available at? From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 19 17:46:07 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:46:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Can someone patch VTserver? In-Reply-To: <4D36B6A2.24531.7879C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D36B6A2.24531.7879C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110119154504.S94421@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 19 Jan 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're running XP on it, it can't be that old (unless I've misread > your initial description of what you're doing). Even relatively > inexpensive P1 systems at least had headers on the motherboard for a > PS/2 mouse, if not an outright connector. Many early AT enclosures, > however didn't leave a hole next to the keyboard jack for the mouse, > so you may want to have a look. If it's an ATX-layout machine, then > for certain there's a mouse jack there. . . . and if it were an old machine, you could use a "bus" mouse. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 19 19:44:26 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 20:44:26 -0500 Subject: TZ30 tape drive (faulty?) In-Reply-To: <021e01cbb819$c3d4fdc0$4b7ef940$@ntlworld.com> References: <021e01cbb819$c3d4fdc0$4b7ef940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I recently acquired a TZ30 tape drive. It does not want to load any tapes I > put in it. I have never used a TZ30 before so I am not sure how it is > supposed to be used.... I have used plenty of TK50s and TK70s but, AFAIK, this part is unchanged: is there a "barb" that is swept across the front of the open tape cartridge when you attempt to load? One very common load fault is that barb breaks off the end of the leader and there's nothing to hook on the loop at the end of the tape and pull the tape into the path. -ethan From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 19 21:17:06 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:17:06 -0600 Subject: FS: M9302 Unibus terminator card Message-ID: <54afj6pqa3ed18miumcc3fqnojhofukqnm@4ax.com> FS cheap: One M9302 (dual-height) Unibus terminator card. Don't need and can't test because I only have a Qbus PDP-11! There isn't much on it that could go wrong though. Make me any reasonable offer... shipping from US zip 65775. thanks Charles From thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net Wed Jan 19 23:01:29 2011 From: thomas.gardner at sbcglobal.net (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 21:01:29 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 11:03:56 -0500 > From: "Shoppa, Tim" > Subject: Re: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] > To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Chuck mentions: > Without a doubt the stepper motor+band positioner was a huge step forward > in economizing microcomputer-oriented hard drives. > > I figured that chronologically the taut-band floppy drives came first but > now that I think about it, maybe the SA4000 came first and the floppy > application came later? > > Certainly stepper-motor use was first in the floppies. At least, AFAIK :-) > > Tim. The band-capstan-stepper motor actuator usage in disk drive art was probably invented by Warren Dalziel (US Patent # 4,161,004) who tells me he is pretty sure he designed the linear version for the double sided floppy (SA850) first and then the hard drive rotary version (SA4000). I suspect they shipped in that order too but the SA4000 probably wasn't too far behind. The patent filing date is Apr 5, 1977 which, given the way things work, is probably just before the first public showing. Anyone know of any early disk drives with a band-capstan-stepper motor actuator? Tom From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 20 00:34:00 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 22:34:00 -0800 Subject: SA4000 [was: Disc drive READY output -- any standards?] In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D3766D8.13843.2B7D9F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2011 at 21:01, Tom Gardner wrote: > The patent filing date is Apr 5, 1977 which, given the way things > work, is probably just before the first public showing. Anyone know > of any early disk drives with a band-capstan-stepper motor actuator? Like all things patent-ish, application and wording count for a lot. For example, the split-band mechanism is shown in 3,488,098 (Solczak, assigned to Teletype), yet it's not cited in the Dalziel patent. Mayeda's patent 3,881,189 looks remarkably like that mechanism used in a disk drive, but the word "stepper" isn't used and the patent is called out for mostly audio and video applications. Dalziel's patent (which cites the earlier Mayeda patent) looks like more of a refinement of the Mayeda patent, rather than something revolutionary. --Chuck From jonas at otter.se Wed Jan 19 12:39:11 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 19:39:11 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic Message-ID: <003001cbb808$2ab27a20$80176e60$@otter.se> > > >3) I am not sure my video camera has much sensitivity in the IR. It > > >depends > > on which vidicon is fitted, I think. > > > > Yes, stupid of me I should have known, mea culpa ;-) > > I cna't beelive you've forgotten my taste for older devices :-) > What do you mean, "older"? Vidicons are modern. Iconoscopes and image orthicons are "older". Cranky ol' Jonas From equityfi at comcast.net Wed Jan 19 15:51:30 2011 From: equityfi at comcast.net (Allen) Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 14:51:30 -0700 Subject: Northgate omnikey ultra Message-ID: <000001cbb823$085fbfd0$191f3f70$@net> I will buy it from you for the $5.00 as I have one and need some of the parts. Thanks, Allen From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 20 02:16:47 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 00:16:47 -0800 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 18, at 10:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Similarly, power up an IR LED and run it past the holes of the >> detectors and look for activity/change on the detectors data line. > > It may be less work in the end to make up some kind of tester to plug > into the touchscreen PCB and display the status of all the beams... Narrows the problem down, but then you still don't know whether it's the emitter or detector. If the logic analyser gives indication of blocked beams as you stated in your original message, why not just poke a finger around on the screen to find which locations don't change the data stream (or change it for only one axis). Appropriate poking sequences should distinguish between X & Y blockages. (Assuming the detectors feed selectors giving individual time slots in the data stream, as opposed to being wire-ORed.) Or finger poking on the good beams to map out the data stream. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 20 03:16:30 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 01:16:30 -0800 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <003001cbb808$2ab27a20$80176e60$@otter.se> References: <003001cbb808$2ab27a20$80176e60$@otter.se> Message-ID: <4D37FD6E.2040104@brouhaha.com> Jonas Otter wrote: > Vidicons are modern. CCDs are postmodern? :-) From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jan 20 07:01:04 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 13:01:04 -0000 Subject: TZ30 tape drive (faulty?) In-Reply-To: References: <021e01cbb819$c3d4fdc0$4b7ef940$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <024801cbb8a2$19df04d0$4d9d0e70$@ntlworld.com> Yes, the leader looks fine, the problem seems to be that there is no movement at all in the mechanism to try to load the tape. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks > Sent: 20 January 2011 01:44 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TZ30 tape drive (faulty?) > > On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Rob Jarratt > wrote: > > I recently acquired a TZ30 tape drive. It does not want to load any > > tapes I put in it. I have never used a TZ30 before so I am not sure > > how it is supposed to be used.... > > I have used plenty of TK50s and TK70s but, AFAIK, this part is unchanged: > is there a "barb" that is swept across the front of the open tape cartridge when > you attempt to load? One very common load fault is that barb breaks off the > end of the leader and there's nothing to hook on the loop at the end of the tape > and pull the tape into the path. > > -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 20 13:56:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:56:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 20, 11 00:16:47 am Message-ID: > > On 2011 Jan 18, at 10:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> Similarly, power up an IR LED and run it past the holes of the > >> detectors and look for activity/change on the detectors data line. > > > > It may be less work in the end to make up some kind of tester to plug > > into the touchscreen PCB and display the status of all the beams... > > Narrows the problem down, but then you still don't know whether it's > the emitter or detector. > > If the logic analyser gives indication of blocked beams as you stated > in your original message, why not just poke a finger around on the > screen to find which locations don't change the data stream (or change > it for only one axis). Appropriate poking sequences should distinguish > between X & Y blockages. (Assuming the detectors feed selectors giving > individual time slots in the data stream, as opposed to being > wire-ORed.) Or finger poking on the good beams to map out the data > stream. Oh, I know the format of the data output -- and I have schematics for the touchscreen PCB, which cotnains just 4000-series CMOS logic chips, a quad op-map (324 I think) and the LED drivers. Nothing custom, nothing programmable. The microcontroller I mentioned is on the CPU board and interfaces between the 8088 bus and the touchscreen, keyboard interface (simuilar, but IIRC the microcontroller, not the device provides the sync pulse), and the beeper. If I look at the ribbon cable to the touchscreen, I am looking at the raw signls before the microcontroller has a go at them :-) The format is something like : X axis in oder (L->R), one unusued, Y sesors in order (Top->Bottom), Sync pulse (on the other output), repeat. That's from memory, I can find the exact details if you want them. But I have heard it said that a 'hacker' is somebody, who, if he has to do a task a dozen times and each time takes 5 minutes, he'll happly spend a day finding an automatic to do it. So yes, I could just count pulses on the logic analyser, but the hacker in me (is there one?) says that I whould be finding a way to avoid doing that ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 20 13:48:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 19:48:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <003001cbb808$2ab27a20$80176e60$@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Jan 19, 11 07:39:11 pm Message-ID: > > > > >3) I am not sure my video camera has much sensitivity in the IR. It > > > >depends > > > on which vidicon is fitted, I think. > > > > > > Yes, stupid of me I should have known, mea culpa ;-) > > > > I cna't beelive you've forgotten my taste for older devices :-) > > > > What do you mean, "older"? Vidicons are modern. Iconoscopes and image > orthicons are "older". No, 'Old' = Nipkow disk and photomultiplier :-) I siad 'older', not 'oldest' :-). I think the vidicon is older than the CCD/Reticon/other IC-like image sensors. Of course I'd like an image orthicon based camera, but there';s little chance of me getting one. Or finding the space for an iconoscope... My video camears are, alas, modern enough to use transistors, and most of them, inclduing the colour [1] one, even use ICs... [1] 3 separete vidicon tubes and a dichroic prism assembly, of course. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 20 18:27:22 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 20 Jan 2011 16:27:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <4D37FD6E.2040104@brouhaha.com> References: <003001cbb808$2ab27a20$80176e60$@otter.se> <4D37FD6E.2040104@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110120162633.U35613@shell.lmi.net> > Vidicons are modern. Do any of your photographic light meters have an adequate IR sensitivity? From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Jan 21 02:22:06 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 08:22:06 -0000 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: from "Brent Hilpert"at Jan 20, 11 00:16:47 am Message-ID: <6E71F70119C04ECCA8EE1DFBBBD6DBC2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Vidicon - 1949 - 1953 CBS CCD - 1969 - Bell Labs Regards ? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 20 January 2011 19:56 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic > > On 2011 Jan 18, at 10:51 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> Similarly, power up an IR LED and run it past the holes of the > >> detectors and look for activity/change on the detectors data line. > > > > It may be less work in the end to make up some kind of tester to plug > > into the touchscreen PCB and display the status of all the beams... > > Narrows the problem down, but then you still don't know whether it's > the emitter or detector. > > If the logic analyser gives indication of blocked beams as you stated > in your original message, why not just poke a finger around on the > screen to find which locations don't change the data stream (or change > it for only one axis). Appropriate poking sequences should distinguish > between X & Y blockages. (Assuming the detectors feed selectors giving > individual time slots in the data stream, as opposed to being > wire-ORed.) Or finger poking on the good beams to map out the data > stream. Oh, I know the format of the data output -- and I have schematics for the touchscreen PCB, which cotnains just 4000-series CMOS logic chips, a quad op-map (324 I think) and the LED drivers. Nothing custom, nothing programmable. The microcontroller I mentioned is on the CPU board and interfaces between the 8088 bus and the touchscreen, keyboard interface (simuilar, but IIRC the microcontroller, not the device provides the sync pulse), and the beeper. If I look at the ribbon cable to the touchscreen, I am looking at the raw signls before the microcontroller has a go at them :-) The format is something like : X axis in oder (L->R), one unusued, Y sesors in order (Top->Bottom), Sync pulse (on the other output), repeat. That's from memory, I can find the exact details if you want them. But I have heard it said that a 'hacker' is somebody, who, if he has to do a task a dozen times and each time takes 5 minutes, he'll happly spend a day finding an automatic to do it. So yes, I could just count pulses on the logic analyser, but the hacker in me (is there one?) says that I whould be finding a way to avoid doing that ;-) -tony From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Jan 21 11:21:31 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 17:21:31 +0000 Subject: TZ30 tape drive (faulty?) In-Reply-To: <024801cbb8a2$19df04d0$4d9d0e70$@ntlworld.com> References: <021e01cbb819$c3d4fdc0$4b7ef940$@ntlworld.com> <024801cbb8a2$19df04d0$4d9d0e70$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D39C09B.1080508@wickensonline.co.uk> On 20/01/11 13:01, Rob Jarratt wrote: > Yes, the leader looks fine, the problem seems to be that there is no > movement at all in the mechanism to try to load the tape. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >> On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks >> Sent: 20 January 2011 01:44 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: TZ30 tape drive (faulty?) >> >> On Wed, Jan 19, 2011 at 3:45 PM, Rob Jarratt >> wrote: >>> I recently acquired a TZ30 tape drive. It does not want to load any >>> tapes I put in it. I have never used a TZ30 before so I am not sure >>> how it is supposed to be used.... >> I have used plenty of TK50s and TK70s but, AFAIK, this part is unchanged: >> is there a "barb" that is swept across the front of the open tape > cartridge when >> you attempt to load? One very common load fault is that barb breaks off > the >> end of the leader and there's nothing to hook on the loop at the end of > the tape >> and pull the tape into the path. >> >> -ethan Rob, Yes, I'd noticed that problem with the drive when I was putting together the youtube videos of how the take up works. The issue is that as you insert the tape it should 'click' into place - there must be a mechanism that clicks in underneath the tape so that as you push it home it gets locked into the drive. This also appears to affect the locking arm. The tape up mechanism for the tape itself looked good. Mark. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 21 14:48:49 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:48:49 +0100 Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: References: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 20, 11 00:16:47 am Message-ID: <005801cbb9ac$a0724d30$e156e790$@xs4all.nl> >But I have heard it said that a 'hacker' is somebody, who, if he has to do a task a dozen times and each time takes 5 >minutes, he'll happly spend a day finding an automatic to do it. So yes, I could just count pulses on the logic analyser, >but the hacker in me (is there one?) says that I whould be finding a way to avoid doing that ;-) >-tony And that's what makes it "Zen and the art of hacking" to use some plagiaristic sentence. -Rik From shumaker at att.net Fri Jan 21 15:00:00 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 13:00:00 -0800 Subject: Sol-20 system in Seattle Message-ID: <4D39F3D0.8060008@att.net> For those interested, there is a really nice looking Sol-20 "with extensive documentation and various software applications" as well as a dual floppy drive posted on CL for Seatle. Looks in very clean condition. Seattle Craigs List item: 2167746702 From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 21 15:52:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:52:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <20110120162633.U35613@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Jan 20, 11 04:27:22 pm Message-ID: > > > Vidicons are modern. > > Do any of your photographic light meters have an adequate IR sensitivity? I haev no idea. Quite likely some do, the ones that use a photodiode sensor. Whenterh they would repsond to a sub-=millisecond pulse (which is what the LED output is, I think), I don't know. I think it would be easier to homebrew a photodiode+op-amp circuit if I want an IR detector. I don't need to make an absolute measurement [1] so calibration isn't a major problem. [1] I susepct that the standard for luminous intensity is one of the hardest to get an reasonable approximation to. Photographic exposure meters with a log_2 scale, are actually not a lot of use here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 21 15:53:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 21:53:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP150 Touchscreen diagnostic In-Reply-To: <6E71F70119C04ECCA8EE1DFBBBD6DBC2@RODSDEVSYSTEM> from "Rod Smallwood" at Jan 21, 11 08:22:06 am Message-ID: > > Vidicon - 1949 - 1953 CBS > CCD - 1969 - Bell Labs Was that using a CCD as an image sensor, or as a shift register (analogue or otherwise)? And if the former, I assume it was a linear, not area, device. Anyway, I think that confirms the vidicon is older than the CCD. And AFAIK, that's the order they appeared in small-ish video cameras too. A vidicon-based camera is likely to be olde rthan a CCD one. -tony From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Jan 21 16:26:41 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 16:26:41 -0600 Subject: FS: another Apple II prototyping board Message-ID: Found in the junkbox: another Apple II prototyping board made by "Suntronics", their p/n SUN722. This one has a number of wire wrap sockets tack-soldered (by one pin on each opposite corner only, so they can be easily removed if desired). Mix of gold and tin plated contacts. There is (1) 40-pin, (2) 28-pin, (3) 20-pin, (3) 16-pin, and (5) 14-pin DIP sockets. http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=P1210086.jpg http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=P1210087.jpg $10.00 (shipped free in USA). thanks Charles From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Fri Jan 21 20:30:37 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:30:37 -0600 Subject: FS: Windows 3.0 and MS-DOS 5.0 Message-ID: <0ufkj61sfki8fs6s87usk6vcho51mitc6e@4ax.com> More vintage software, gathering dust... Windows 3.0 on five 1.2MB 5.25" floppy disks. Used once (to load the hard drive on a Zenith 486-33). Appear to be in perfect shape but I no longer have any PC's with five-inch drives. Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0 on five 5.25" floppies. Also only read once. $10 for each set (*includes postage* in USA). Will ship internationally for additional postage. thanks Charles From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 21 22:12:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 20:12:24 -0800 Subject: IBM Centennial Film: They Were There - People who changed the way the world works Message-ID: <4D3A5928.2030705@brouhaha.com> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrhDaAmn5Uw From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 22 10:15:53 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 16:15:53 +0000 Subject: DEC ROMs (was Re: Help with DHV11/16 card?) In-Reply-To: References: <4D2C1553.8090609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D3B02B9.1080203@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/01/2011 07:23, Glen Slick wrote: > Another thing to consider is updating the EPROMs on the M8189 KDF11-B > to the KDF11B-BH version (23-381E4 / 23-380E4) which has the built in > MAP command. See sample output below from my M8189 KDF11-B with the > KDF11B-BH EPROMs. > Pete has the KDF11-BJ (23-454E4 / 23-453E4) version in his ROM list > but doesn't have the binaries files there. I guess he must not have > copies of those or they would be there with the other ROM images? Exactly so; I try to list all the PDP-11 ROMs (and some others) I know of, but there are quite a few I've not got images for. I've got the images for KDF11-BG (aka KDF11-BH - this is one of those weird ones where the parts documentation lists one code but the firmware itself reports a slightly different one) but I don't have images of KDF11-BJ. I've just done one of my aperiodic checks and updates, so I've added a few ROM images (for a VAXstation II's VCB02 framebuffer) and made some corrections and updates to the lists. I'm still looking for the following images, if anyone has or can get any of them: 23-031E2 VT100 terminal ROM 23-051L1 M7546 TQK50 Rev.D1 E3 ROM 23-065L1 M7546 TQK50 Rev.J1 E3 ROM 23-077E5 M8190 KDJ-11B (PDP11/73+) boot Version 6 23-078E5 M8190 KDJ-11B (PDP11/73+) boot Version 6 23-094E2 VT100 extra chargen 23-095E2 VT100 extra chargen 23-096E2 VT100 extra chargen 23-097E2 VT132 extra chargen 23-098E2 VT132 extra chargen 23-139E2 VT100 terminal board ROM 23-140E2 VT100 terminal board ROM 23-170E5 M7546 TQK50 ROMs, rev.1 23-171E5 M7546 TQK50 ROMs, rev.1 23-180E2 VT132 terminal board ROM 23-180E5 M7546 TQK50 ROMs, rev.2 (C1) 23-181E2 VT132 terminal board ROM 23-181E5 M7546 TQK50 ROMs, rev.2 (C1) 23-182E2 VT132 terminal board ROM 23-183E2 VT132 terminal board ROM 23-228E4 M7792 DEUNA Port Module ROM 23-229E4 M7792 DEUNA Port Module ROM 23-287E8 VAXstation 4000 VLC (40-pin EPROM) 23-288E8 VAXstation 4000 VLC (40-pin EPROM) 23-368E9 KZMSA-F001 FCO (goes with PAL 23-E89J5) 23-410E6 M7559 TKQ70 FCO TQK70-R001 23-411E6 M7559 TKQ70 FCO TQK70-R001 23-432E4 M7521 DELUA ROM, FC0 DELUA-I002 23-433E4 M7521 DELUA ROM, FC0 DELUA-I002 23-453E6 TK50Z-GA ROM 23-453E4 M8189 KDF11-BJ (uPDP11/23) boot, last release 23-454E4 M8189 KDF11-BJ (uPDP11/23) boot, last release BTW, does anyone have any spare MCM68766 or MCM68764 EPROMs? They're the 8Kx8 24-pin ones often used by DEC (MCM68764 is slower, though), but also to be found in some other microcompters of the era. Someone promised to send me a few a some years back, but I never got any :-( -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 11:07:09 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 11:07:09 -0600 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters Message-ID: Can anyone recommend a good step-down voltage converter? I'd like to be able to plug 110 power tools into 220 european style outlets. Some of the power tools are 1.5hp induction motors, while others have the typical universal motors. I'll need a high-wattage unit. At least 2000watts I think, whatever is the maximum for a 20amp 110 outlet. Amazon has one for something like $85. But I'd happily pay twice that or more for one built like a tank with high quality components. Can anyone suggest one? brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 22 11:55:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 17:55:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jan 22, 11 11:07:09 am Message-ID: > > Can anyone recommend a good step-down voltage converter? I'd like to > be able to plug 110 power tools into 220 european style outlets. Some > of the power tools are 1.5hp induction motors, while others have the > typical universal motors. I'll need a high-wattage unit. At least > 2000watts I think, whatever is the maximum for a 20amp 110 outlet. > Amazon has one for something like $85. But I'd happily pay twice that > or more for one built like a tank with high quality components. Can > anyone suggest one? You don';t say where you're located... In the UK, all 'portable' power tools used industirally (for example an electric dril lused ona buildingsite) must be 110V units, powered from an isolating transformer with the outptu centre-tapped to ground. The idea is that if there's an insulation failuer, the worst shock the user could receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. Over here, portabel transformers giving 110V are quite common. They are often rated at 3000VA (the maximum we can get from a UK 13A socket outlet) and have a pair of 110V 16A output sockets. these are not the small US tupe, but large, 3 pin ones. When I learnt about such things they were cakked 'BS4343' sockets, I am told theres now a CEN number which I can't remember. The socket outlets and plugs are yellow in colour (this specifies the voltage, blue = 220V or so, red = 415V 3 phase. plugs and sockets of different colours will not fit together for obvious safety reasons). Even if you're `just' an enthusiast, scuh a transformer is worth having. Some power tools, particularly, the industrial-spcification ones only come in 110V versions. And although the output is centre-tapped to earth rather than having one side earthed, the transformer is useful for running US stuff over here, at least for testing (I made up a cable with a BS4343 plug on one end and a US socket on the other). These transfoemrs are not particuarly cheap (I would guess perhaps $200 or so), and they are not light, so shipping might be expensive. But they are designed to run power tools. -tony From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sat Jan 22 12:02:59 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 10:02:59 -0800 Subject: Sol-20 system in Seattle In-Reply-To: <4D39F3D0.8060008@att.net> Message-ID: <832AECDA304.0000012En0body.h0me@inbox.com> Yah. Definitely 'Investment Grade'. And he knows it. > -----Original Message----- > From: shumaker at att.net > Sent: Fri, 21 Jan 2011 13:00:00 -0800 > To: > Subject: Sol-20 system in Seattle > > For those interested, there is a really nice looking Sol-20 "with > extensive documentation and various software applications" as well as a > dual floppy drive posted on CL for Seatle. Looks in very clean > condition. > > Seattle Craigs List item: 2167746702 ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jan 22 13:44:55 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 13:44:55 -0600 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > In the UK, all 'portable' power tools used industirally (for example an > electric dril lused ona buildingsite) must be 110V units, powered from an > isolating transformer with the outptu centre-tapped to ground. The idea > is that if there's an insulation failuer, the worst shock the user could > receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. So if you were to go to a store that sells routers or maybe a benchtop drill press with a 1hp induction motor, that would be 115 volts? > Over here, portabel transformers giving 110V are quite common. They are > often rated at 3000VA (the maximum we can get from a UK 13A socket > outlet) and have a pair of 110V 16A output sockets. The 110 lines here are usually rates at 15 amps, but can sometimes be rated at 20 amps with (or sometimes without) a special plug with one of the spades rotated 90 degrees. I'd like to be able to handle the 20 amps, although 15 would probably be enough. > Even if you're `just' an enthusiast, scuh a transformer is worth having. > Some power tools, particularly, the industrial-spcification ones only > come in 110V versions. And although the output is centre-tapped to earth > rather than having one side earthed, the transformer is useful for > running US stuff over here, at least for testing (I made up a cable with > a BS4343 plug on one end and a US socket on the other). > These transfoemrs are not particuarly cheap (I would guess perhaps $200 > or so), and they are not light, so shipping might be expensive. But they > are designed to run power tools. This sounds like what I'm after. Can you point me at one online somewhere? brian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 22 14:50:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:50:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jan 22, 11 01:44:55 pm Message-ID: > > On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > In the UK, all 'portable' power tools used industirally (for example an > > electric dril lused ona buildingsite) must be 110V units, powered from an > > isolating transformer with the outptu centre-tapped to ground. The idea > > is that if there's an insulation failuer, the worst shock the user could > > receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. > > So if you were to go to a store that sells routers or maybe a benchtop > drill press with a 1hp induction motor, that would be 115 volts? I would think a bench drill press wouldn't be classed as a 'portable' power tool, and thus would be 230V. Certainly small lathes have 230V motors (and larger ones have 415V 3 phase motors). But routers (the woodworking tool, not the network switch :-)) would be 110V. As are electric drills, angle grinders, etc. While the socket is rated at 16A, it will pass more for a short period. Certainly I've sene an angle grider which can take 28A (!) under surge conditions, and that was suppleid with a '16A' plug and runs off a normal transformer. There is a 32A version of the connextor (and I beleive 63A and 125A ones, but I have never seen them, at any votlage rating). It's less common, and I've never seen a portable transforemr with it fitted. There are larger transformers, 5kVA rating or more, but I doubt you'd be able to feed the input of that. > > > > Over here, portabel transformers giving 110V are quite common. They are > > often rated at 3000VA (the maximum we can get from a UK 13A socket > > outlet) and have a pair of 110V 16A output sockets. > > The 110 lines here are usually rates at 15 amps, but can sometimes be > rated at 20 amps with (or sometimes without) a special plug with one > of the spades rotated 90 degrees. I'd like to be able to handle the > 20 amps, although 15 would probably be enough. Yes, I've seen that plug. The one used i nthe UK for power tools is totally different, but It's not ahrd to wire an adapter cable. The plugs (at least the 16A ones for 110V and 230V) are easy to get over here, even some high street electrical shops keep them. Any proper electrical supplier (and many electronic component suppliers like RS or Farnell) sell them. > > > > Even if you're `just' an enthusiast, scuh a transformer is worth having. > > Some power tools, particularly, the industrial-spcification ones only > > come in 110V versions. And although the output is centre-tapped to earth > > rather than having one side earthed, the transformer is useful for > > running US stuff over here, at least for testing (I made up a cable with > > a BS4343 plug on one end and a US socket on the other). > > > These transfoemrs are not particuarly cheap (I would guess perhaps $200 > > or so), and they are not light, so shipping might be expensive. But they > > are designed to run power tools. > > This sounds like what I'm after. Can you point me at one online somewhere? I will take a look for you. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Jan 22 16:22:52 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 22:22:52 -0000 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> This sounds like what I'm after. Can you point me at one online >> somewhere? First hit on google: http://www.airlinktransformers.com/sitetransformers.asp ?120 (~$200) for a 3kVA 230V -> 2x110V unit. 14kg :-( Antonio From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 22 18:15:57 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:15:57 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... Message-ID: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> Hi all -- Obviously no one here "collects" the ENIAC, but it's certainly old enough to be on-topic. :) Having said that, here is a new site devoted to ENIAC -- www.the-eniac.com -- the six orange links up top are packed solid with useful information. Disclosure: it's NOT my site, but I was involved in its creation. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 22 20:37:40 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 02:37:40 +0000 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3B9474.8040500@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2011 20:50, Tony Duell wrote: >> On Sat, Jan 22, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> In the UK, all 'portable' power tools used industirally (for example an >>> electric dril lused ona buildingsite) must be 110V units, powered from an >>> isolating transformer with the outptu centre-tapped to ground. The idea >>> is that if there's an insulation failuer, the worst shock the user could >>> receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. >> So if you were to go to a store that sells routers or maybe a benchtop >> drill press with a 1hp induction motor, that would be 115 volts? > > I would think a bench drill press wouldn't be classed as a 'portable' > power tool, and thus would be 230V. Certainly small lathes have 230V > motors (and larger ones have 415V 3 phase motors). Yes, it's only portable tools that have to be 110V. Anything mounted on a bench or floor-fixed, and not on a building site, is likely to be 230V single-phase (with neutral at approximately ground potential) if it's small, say 1HP or less, or 415V three-phase if larger. 110V is used for portable lighting and other things as well. > There is a 32A version of the connextor (and I beleive 63A and 125A ones, > but I have never seen them, at any votlage rating). It's less common, and > I've never seen a portable transforemr with it fitted. There are larger > transformers, 5kVA rating or more, but I doubt you'd be able to feed the > input of that. The biggest I have in use is 32A and I do have quite a few of them, but our Estates Department have 63A ones. IEC60309 is the standards number Tony was thinking of; the connectors are sometimes called "Commando" plugs, because that's a trade name owned by one of the most common makes. >>> Even if you're `just' an enthusiast, scuh a transformer is worth having. >>> Some power tools, particularly, the industrial-spcification ones only >>> come in 110V versions. And although the output is centre-tapped to earth >>> rather than having one side earthed, the transformer is useful for >>> running US stuff over here, at least for testing (I made up a cable with >>> a BS4343 plug on one end and a US socket on the other). >>> These transfoemrs are not particuarly cheap (I would guess perhaps $200 >>> or so), and they are not light, so shipping might be expensive. But they >>> are designed to run power tools. >> This sounds like what I'm after. Can you point me at one online somewhere? Yes, they are useful; I have one at home. Prices range from about UKP50 to several times that (and much more for large site transformers, which can be almost a metre cube). Take a look at http://uk.farnell.com/pro-elec/p20-2/transformer-site-2-x-16a-2kva/dp/1355095 or http://uk.farnell.com/clairtronic/10260/transformer-isolation-2250va/dp/1498773 and you'll see some fairly small examples (the second one is similar to my one at home, except mine's 3kVA). Click on "Product range" to see more. The "Technical Data Sheet" is no help if you want to know how heavy they are, but mine is heavy enough that I'd not normally try to carry anything else at the same time :-) Or look up "site transformers" on Amazon.co.uk (not on amazon.com). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Jan 22 21:54:54 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:54:54 -0600 Subject: Need blank 3U panel, PDP-11 corporate cabinet Message-ID: <649nj6djt9eb1sie467jfsbbee47rqr4jn@4ax.com> I've been looking at a blank space in the front of my PDP-11/23+ for quite a while. Since I have been wrestling with TSX-Plus, and changing unit 0 packs frequently, I have finally got around to rearranging it "correctly" as shown on the cover of Microcomputers and Memories (thanks Pete for the pic). That is, with one RL02 drive on top, a 1U blank panel, and the 11/23+ underneath that. Then a 3U space, the other RL02, and the bottom panel. Now the "hole" is even more obvious. http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=P1220089.jpg Does anyone (preferably in the US so postage won't be outrageous) have a 3U blank panel I can purchase (or trade something for)? I'm also wondering if there is supposed to be some kind of long narrow cover plates along the top between the RL02 and the side panels? http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/?action=view¤t=P1220090.jpg thanks Charles From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 22 22:17:46 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:17:46 -0800 Subject: Need blank 3U panel, PDP-11 corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: <649nj6djt9eb1sie467jfsbbee47rqr4jn@4ax.com> References: <649nj6djt9eb1sie467jfsbbee47rqr4jn@4ax.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 22, at 7:54 PM, Charles wrote: > I've been looking at a blank space in the front of my PDP-11/23+ > for quite a while. Since I have been wrestling with TSX-Plus, and > changing unit 0 packs frequently, I have finally got around to > rearranging it "correctly" as shown on the cover of Microcomputers > and Memories (thanks Pete for the pic). > > That is, with one RL02 drive on top, a 1U blank panel, and the > 11/23+ underneath that. Then a 3U space, the other RL02, and the > bottom panel. Now the "hole" is even more obvious. > > http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x426/DrCharlesMorris/? > action=view¤t=P1220089.jpg > > Does anyone (preferably in the US so postage won't be outrageous) > have a 3U blank panel I can purchase (or trade something for)? I have such a DEC blank panel, 3-7/16" high. Is that 2U or 3U? (White-grey, 1-7/16" deep, rounded corners, typical 80's DEC stuff, probably came off the IO cab (tape/disk) for a 750 originally, that or somewhere on a 780.) I rescued it from the trash when it was thrown out during some rack rearrangements back in the 80's, figuring it could be cut up to make little cases with some additional sheet Al. Never used it and I've never managed to send it off to metal recycling, so it's been annoying me everytime I fumble around in my parts closet for the past quarter century. I'll take a picture for your approval or confirmation if of interest. Free if you cover shipping. Downside is it's in Vancouver, Canada - perhaps you'll find something closer. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 22 22:26:54 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 20:26:54 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <70211af0c8d5a134461c48dad1b3fe28@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 22, at 4:15 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Hi all -- > > Obviously no one here "collects" the ENIAC, but it's certainly old > enough to be on-topic. :) > > Having said that, here is a new site devoted to ENIAC -- > www.the-eniac.com -- the six orange links up top are packed solid with > useful information. > > Disclosure: it's NOT my site, but I was involved in its creation. Great to see more about the ENIAC. I see somebody has done a graphical simulation. Another project I don't have to do now (I did a graphical sim of the ABC, always wanted to do one for the ENIAC, could still be fun though). But holy smokes: http://www.cjr.org/page_views/number_cruncher.php The rancor just goes on and on (.. not taking sides, just noting ..) From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 22 23:05:20 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 21:05:20 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> Message-ID: Oh boy, let's argue the "first computer" question again.... This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really a computer, but ENIAC was. From what I've read of both machines, the ABC can't be seen to be less of a computer than ENIAC - although it was certainly less successful. The argument of this website is that the ABC was nothing more than a calculator. I would suggest that both ABC and ENIAC were in fact computers of limited application, to wit, the calculation of complex and repetitive arithmetic, and both were originally designed for particular purposes. ENIAC was later programmed for other arithmetic tasks, and perhaps that would have been possible with the ABC as well - but history suggests that the ABC just wasn't very well built (it didn't have federal dollars behind it!) and was not as robust as one might hope. But robust and popular or flaky and obscure, the factual history - not the mud-slinging against documentarian Smiley for what may well have been sloppy journalism - seems to suggest that the ABC was the first of the genre, "electronic digital computer," as limited as those initial machines were - all of them. The fact that Colossus was purpose-built and served to decipher codes should not take away from the importance of its design. It was possibly as 'programmable' as the ENIAC, but the scope of programming development was somewhat limited by fear of annihilation at the hands of the Nazi regime. One must wonder what would have become of it had its destruction not been ordered and its very existence declared a state secret. I think ENIAC's overwhelming historical importance was the conversations it started. It was not an obscure project by a college professor of physics nor a super-secret defense project (although it did start out that way, it later became an 'open' secret), and its significance was more about why it wasn't all it could be than what it was. Von Neumann's observations would likely not have occurred without the context of the ENIAC, nor would the interest in the potential of information technology have been quite so stoked. I wonder how history would have been written if Atanasoff had been more interested in fame and fortune than in quantum physics, or if he and Berry had been (or could have hired) better engineers. The Eckstein citation on this site does not constitute scholarship, just recursively poor journalism. It's a shame this site diminishes an otherwise worthwhile goal of celebrating the ENIAC by regurgitating an old, emotional and unsupported argument. ENIAC was far more important to history, but that does not mean we must disregard history that demonstrates it was not first of its class. (First "general purpose" machine? Clearly later, with EDSAC/EDVAC/UNIVAC, which were deliberately built by principle to be computers and to subsequently fulfill specific roles at the behest of their programmers.) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz [evan at snarc.net] Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 4:15 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: ENIAC .... Hi all -- Obviously no one here "collects" the ENIAC, but it's certainly old enough to be on-topic. :) Having said that, here is a new site devoted to ENIAC -- www.the-eniac.com -- the six orange links up top are packed solid with useful information. Disclosure: it's NOT my site, but I was involved in its creation. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 00:23:44 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 22:23:44 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <838a87eb4f9cfdc3c357da79aa502823@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 22, at 9:05 PM, Ian King wrote: > Oh boy, let's argue the "first computer" question again.... > > This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really a > computer, but ENIAC was. From what I've read of both machines, the > ABC can't be seen to be less of a computer than ENIAC - although it > was certainly less successful. The argument of this website is that > the ABC was nothing more than a calculator. I would suggest that both > ABC and ENIAC were in fact computers of limited application, to wit, > the calculation of complex and repetitive arithmetic, and both were > originally designed for particular purposes. ENIAC was later > programmed for other arithmetic tasks, and perhaps that would have > been possible with the ABC as well - but history suggests that the ABC > just wasn't very well built (it didn't have federal dollars behind > it!) and was not as robust as one might hope. But robust and popular > or flaky and obscure, the factual history - not the mud-slinging > against documentarian Smiley for what may well have been sloppy > journalism - seems to suggest that the ABC was the first of the genre, > "electronic digital computer," as limited as those initial machines > were - all of them. Yes, there is too much ABC bashing in there. They won't even allow the ABC credit for what it did do, or fail to understand what it did. They state: "It?s true that the ABC used vacuum tubes for counting, but that concept was already established in other inventions such as ray counters." The ABC did not use counters, one of it's most significant accomplishments was that it broke from counter-based arithmetic to do arithmetic with logic and gates. > The fact that Colossus was purpose-built and served to decipher codes > should not take away from the importance of its design. It was > possibly as 'programmable' as the ENIAC, but the scope of programming > development was somewhat limited by fear of annihilation at the hands > of the Nazi regime. One must wonder what would have become of it had > its destruction not been ordered and its very existence declared a > state secret. I looked into the Colossus claims of programmability a little, but was not convinced, at least from the technical description I recall seeing. There was some flexibility in there, but very limited compared to the ENIAC. > I think ENIAC's overwhelming historical importance was the > conversations it started. It was not an obscure project by a college > professor of physics nor a super-secret defense project (although it > did start out that way, it later became an 'open' secret), and its > significance was more about why it wasn't all it could be than what it > was. Von Neumann's observations would likely not have occurred > without the context of the ENIAC, nor would the interest in the > potential of information technology have been quite so stoked. Are you referring to the 'stored program' 'observations'? I believe it has been reasonably established that the stored program concept could not be attributed to Von Neumann - that the concept either came out of the group discussions for EDVAC and could not be attributed to individuals, or that Eckert and Mauchly had already arrived at the notion before Von Neumann's involvement. > I wonder how history would have been written if Atanasoff had been > more interested in fame and fortune than in quantum physics, or if he > and Berry had been (or could have hired) better engineers. > > The Eckstein citation on this site does not constitute scholarship, > just recursively poor journalism. > > It's a shame this site diminishes an otherwise worthwhile goal of > celebrating the ENIAC by regurgitating an old, emotional and > unsupported argument. ENIAC was far more important to history, but > that does not mean we must disregard history that demonstrates it was > not first of its class. (First "general purpose" machine? Clearly > later, with EDSAC/EDVAC/UNIVAC, which were deliberately built by > principle to be computers and to subsequently fulfill specific roles > at the behest of their programmers.) -- Ian From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 04:46:51 2011 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (Alexandre LJ) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:46:51 +0100 Subject: Sun and DEC equipment in the in Duesseldorf, Germany Message-ID: Hello all, Just sounding the mailing list. Is there anyone in the area of K?ln (Cologne)/D?sseldorf, Germany that would be interested in the following: (1) a dual-processor SPARCstation 20 (maximum RAM, 8 MB VRAM, 2x75 MHz processors); (2) a DEC 3000-300 ("Pelican" Alpha station); (3) a Sun Netra T1 with 768 MB RAM; or (4) two Sun 601 enclosures containing 120 GB non-SE drives? Before I put them on eBay, I wanted to check here. I do need some money for these items (struggling student and all...). Thanks, Alex From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 08:37:35 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:37:35 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> > This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really a computer How can any machine be a "computer" if it doesn't have any ability to run a program? > the calculation of complex and repetitive arithmetic Actually, the ABC required * human intervention * after every calculation. > both were originally designed for particular purposes That's incorrect. You hit upon a common fallacy regarding ENIAC -- that it was "designed" for Army ballistics purposes. The truth is, Mauchly was working on a general-purpose computer, and then the Army Ballistics Lab * funded * his work. Essentially the Army said, "We'll pay for your research if we get to use it first when it's done." Unfortunately many people today think that means that ENIAC was commissioned * by * the Army or at least specifically designed for them. It's not true! > ENIAC was later programmed for other arithmetic tasks, and perhaps that would have been possible with the ABC as well Perhaps. But it wasn't. Perhaps Columbus would have eventually sailed in the right direction. He didn't. > history suggests that the ABC just wasn't very well built (it didn't have federal dollars behind it!) Also not true. Atanasoff spent years and lots of money working in the Navy Ordnance Lab (at times with Mauchly's assistance) yet he still failed to make a competitive computer. > the factual history ... seems to suggest that the ABC was the first of the genre, "electronic digital computer," .... Except that its electronic logic was impeded by its electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to run a program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". > The fact that Colossus was purpose-built and served to decipher codes should not take away from the importance of its design. Well we agree on that. :) > Von Neumann's observations would likely not have occurred without the context of the ENIAC You mean his plagiarizing of other people's work and sticking his own name on it, and then widely distributing that classified document without permission? Yes, i agree. :) > I wonder how history would have been written if Atanasoff had been more interested in fame and fortune than in quantum physics, or if he and Berry had been (or could have hired) better engineers. Nobody is saying (for reals) that Atanasoff wasn't a brilliant guy. It's not his fault that Jane Smiley and Mollenhoff before her wrote an abortion of a "history book" and put Atanasoff's legacy through all of this. Atanasoff made a fine electromechanical calculator, and he was one of many people who helped others such as Mauchly meld their own ideas. > The Eckstein citation on this site does not constitute scholarship, just recursively poor journalism. Which citation do you mean? Remember, everything on the bottom half of the site is merely someone's blog posts. > It's a shame this site diminishes an otherwise worthwhile goal of celebrating the ENIAC by regurgitating an old, emotional and unsupported argument. Emotional? Unsupported? Back up those claims. Otherwise you'll sound like Jane Smiley. > ENIAC was far more important to history, but that does not mean we must disregard history that demonstrates it was not first of its class. Not at all. The page "Was it the first computer?" clearly shows how Babbage had many of the original ideas, Zuse was first to implement them, and Colossus was first to make them all-electronic. > (First "general purpose" machine? Clearly later, with EDSAC/EDVAC/UNIVAC, which were deliberately built by principle to be computers and to subsequently fulfill specific roles at the behest of their programmers.) All of those others were post-ENIAC, which (as I already explained) was also " deliberately built by principle to be computers and to subsequently fulfill specific roles at the behest of their programmers". Also, some of these (mainly the stored-program concept) are addressed in the "UNIVAC generation" link. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 08:40:04 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:40:04 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <838a87eb4f9cfdc3c357da79aa502823@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <838a87eb4f9cfdc3c357da79aa502823@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3C3DC4.3070109@snarc.net> > They state: "It?s true that the ABC used vacuum tubes for counting, > but that concept was already established in other inventions such as > ray counters." The ABC did not use counters, one of it's most > significant accomplishments was that it broke from counter-based > arithmetic to do arithmetic with logic and gates. You're right. And you're the second person to point this out to me. "Counting" is now changed to "logic". > Are you referring to the 'stored program' 'observations'? I believe it > has been reasonably established that the stored program concept could > not be attributed to Von Neumann - that the concept either came out of > the group discussions for EDVAC and could not be attributed to > individuals, or that Eckert and Mauchly had already arrived at the > notion before Von Neumann's involvement. Correct. Unfortunately VN got credit for it. (Explanation in my previous reply.) From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 23 09:56:35 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 07:56:35 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3C4FB3.5040309@bitsavers.org> On 1/22/11 4:15 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Having said that, here is a new site devoted to ENIAC You neglected to mention the fact that this is John Machly's son's site. View the contents with that in mind. Jane Smiley will be giving a lecture at CHM this Thursday http://www.computerhistory.org/events/index.php?id=1288639215 The new CHM "Revolution" exhibit includes several sections of ENIAC on loan from the Smithsonian, and the reconstruction of ABC on loan from the University of Iowa. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 23 10:00:15 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:00:15 +0000 Subject: Old LCD info Message-ID: <4D3C508F.2020605@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Hi, I'm trying to repair an old Husky rugged handheld, circa 1981 so deffo on topic :) Anyway the machine mostly seems to work apart from the LCD is a little flakey. It can only be read from a cirtain angle and fades after a couple of minutes on. The LCD is an Epson MA-B965B does anyone have, or know where I can get the datasheet for this module ? Cheers, Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 23 10:25:45 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:25:45 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, , <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3BE609.3055.883BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2011 at 9:37, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really > > a computer > > How can any machine be a "computer" if it doesn't have any ability to > run a program? The word "computer" is a strange topic. Note that IBM didn't call the 704 a "computer" (data processing machine, calculator, but not a computer). So we're essentially trying to define things by a word that has its meaning rooted in later devices. Good luck with that. I knew some people who refused to call a MITS 8800 a "computer"... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 23 10:35:14 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 11:35:14 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3BE609.3055.883BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, , <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3BE609.3055.883BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D3C58C2.8000709@neurotica.com> On 1/23/11 11:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I knew some people who refused to call a MITS 8800 a "computer"... I've had one guy look me dead in the eye and tell me that my PDP-11/70 couldn't possibly be a computer, and that I had no idea of what I was talking about. Where's the mouse? Where's the "Start" button? Circa 1974, huh? No, I'm clearly nuts, computers only came around in the 1990s, "when modems were invented so we could surf the Internet". I very nearly experienced spontaneous combustion. I'm reminded of a T-shirt that I had in the mid-1990s. It said "NO, the Internet is NOT cool! Go away!" -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jan 23 10:39:56 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:39:56 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C4FB3.5040309@bitsavers.org> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C4FB3.5040309@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D3C59DC.4080006@bitsavers.org> On 1/23/11 7:56 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > ABC on loan from the University > of Iowa. > should be Iowa State From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 23 10:47:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 08:47:14 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C58C2.8000709@neurotica.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, <4D3BE609.3055.883BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D3C58C2.8000709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D3BEB12.19317.1C2FA3@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2011 at 11:35, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 1/23/11 11:25 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I knew some people who refused to call a MITS 8800 a "computer"... > > I've had one guy look me dead in the eye and tell me that my > PDP-11/70 couldn't possibly be a computer, and that I had no idea of > what I was talking about. Where's the mouse? Where's the "Start" > button? Circa 1974, huh? No, I'm clearly nuts, computers only came > around in the 1990s, "when modems were invented so we could surf the > Internet". This was in 1975 and it was a (female) co-worker who wanted to see my computer. Her response was withering: "That's not a computer! That's a toy!". I don't think I've ever recovered from that. --Chuck From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Jan 23 11:46:39 2011 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 09:46:39 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> Message-ID: <07b701cbbb25$7eb3ae80$7c1b0b80$@com> On Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:38 AM Evan Koblentz Wrote: > You mean his plagiarizing of other people's work and sticking his own name on it, and then widely distributing that classified document without permission? Yes, i agree. :) I agree with most of the rest of your text, but not with this. Von Neumann did not plagiarize anything. He documented what he learned and passed it up the chain. The distribution was done by "military intelligence" and the names of those involved in the top-secret project redacted by the same "intelligence." Von Neumann didn't mean to steal credit from the other Johns. Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 6:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ENIAC .... > This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really a computer How can any machine be a "computer" if it doesn't have any ability to run a program? > the calculation of complex and repetitive arithmetic Actually, the ABC required * human intervention * after every calculation. > both were originally designed for particular purposes That's incorrect. You hit upon a common fallacy regarding ENIAC -- that it was "designed" for Army ballistics purposes. The truth is, Mauchly was working on a general-purpose computer, and then the Army Ballistics Lab * funded * his work. Essentially the Army said, "We'll pay for your research if we get to use it first when it's done." Unfortunately many people today think that means that ENIAC was commissioned * by * the Army or at least specifically designed for them. It's not true! > ENIAC was later programmed for other arithmetic tasks, and perhaps that would have been possible with the ABC as well Perhaps. But it wasn't. Perhaps Columbus would have eventually sailed in the right direction. He didn't. > history suggests that the ABC just wasn't very well built (it didn't have federal dollars behind it!) Also not true. Atanasoff spent years and lots of money working in the Navy Ordnance Lab (at times with Mauchly's assistance) yet he still failed to make a competitive computer. > the factual history ... seems to suggest that the ABC was the first of the genre, "electronic digital computer," .... Except that its electronic logic was impeded by its electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to run a program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". > The fact that Colossus was purpose-built and served to decipher codes should not take away from the importance of its design. Well we agree on that. :) > Von Neumann's observations would likely not have occurred without the context of the ENIAC You mean his plagiarizing of other people's work and sticking his own name on it, and then widely distributing that classified document without permission? Yes, i agree. :) > I wonder how history would have been written if Atanasoff had been more interested in fame and fortune than in quantum physics, or if he and Berry had been (or could have hired) better engineers. Nobody is saying (for reals) that Atanasoff wasn't a brilliant guy. It's not his fault that Jane Smiley and Mollenhoff before her wrote an abortion of a "history book" and put Atanasoff's legacy through all of this. Atanasoff made a fine electromechanical calculator, and he was one of many people who helped others such as Mauchly meld their own ideas. > The Eckstein citation on this site does not constitute scholarship, just recursively poor journalism. Which citation do you mean? Remember, everything on the bottom half of the site is merely someone's blog posts. > It's a shame this site diminishes an otherwise worthwhile goal of celebrating the ENIAC by regurgitating an old, emotional and unsupported argument. Emotional? Unsupported? Back up those claims. Otherwise you'll sound like Jane Smiley. > ENIAC was far more important to history, but that does not mean we must disregard history that demonstrates it was not first of its class. Not at all. The page "Was it the first computer?" clearly shows how Babbage had many of the original ideas, Zuse was first to implement them, and Colossus was first to make them all-electronic. > (First "general purpose" machine? Clearly later, with EDSAC/EDVAC/UNIVAC, which were deliberately built by principle to be computers and to subsequently fulfill specific roles at the behest of their programmers.) All of those others were post-ENIAC, which (as I already explained) was also " deliberately built by principle to be computers and to subsequently fulfill specific roles at the behest of their programmers". Also, some of these (mainly the stored-program concept) are addressed in the "UNIVAC generation" link. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 23 11:53:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:53:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need blank 3U panel, PDP-11 corporate cabinet In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 22, 11 08:17:46 pm Message-ID: > I have such a DEC blank panel, 3-7/16" high. Is that 2U or 3U? That sounds like 2U. 1U = 1.75" or thereeabouts. I think I saw a tape measure calibrated in 'U' in one of the catalogues (may RS or Farnell). It wouid be quite fun to own one of those... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 23 11:59:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:59:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jan 22, 11 09:05:20 pm Message-ID: [...] > The fact that Colossus was purpose-built and served to decipher codes shoul= > d not take away from the importance of its design. It was possibly as 'pro= Whether or not a device is important (and I will happily agree that both Colossus and ENIAC are historically and socially importnat) has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it's a computer. > grammable' as the ENIAC, but the scope of programming development was somew= > hat limited by fear of annihilation at the hands of the Nazi regime. One m= > ust wonder what would have become of it had its destruction not been ordere= > d and its very existence declared a state secret. =20 I have yet to see any proper technical information on either ENIAC or Colossus. Alas most of the technical-looking links on the currently-discussed ENIAC site go pages whre you have to be an IEEE member to go further. But I was under the impression that neither, in their original form, were stored-program machines, and that to me would seem to be one criterion for defining 'computer' -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 12:17:13 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:17:13 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <07b701cbbb25$7eb3ae80$7c1b0b80$@com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <07b701cbbb25$7eb3ae80$7c1b0b80$@com> Message-ID: > Von Neumann did not plagiarize anything. ?He documented what he learned and > passed it up the chain. ?The distribution was done by "military > intelligence" and the names of those involved in the top-secret project > redacted by the same "intelligence." I am curious - what was the *official* classification of the ENIAC project? Is there a primary source available? -- Will From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Sun Jan 23 12:29:05 2011 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 10:29:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC . . . . In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2050.28606.qm@web114614.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is a fantastic, technically oriented book from MIT Press that I heartily recommend to anyone seriously interested in the history of computers: The First Computers--History and Architectures http://www.amazon.com/First-Computers--History-Architectures-History-Computing/dp/0262681374/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295806901&sr=8-1 An excerpt from it comparing the ENIAC with the ENIAC-on-a-chip is found, along with an image of the ENIAC chip, at the bottom of my web page here: http://diephotos.blogspot.com/ From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 14:09:50 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:09:50 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3C8B0E.8020703@snarc.net> > I have yet to see any proper technical information on either ENIAC or Colossus. Alas most of the technical-looking links on the currently-discussed ENIAC site go pages whre you have to be an IEEE member to go further. You might like this page: http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/46eniac-report/index.html > But I was under the impression that neither, in their original form, were stored-program machines True. > and that to me would seem to be one criterion for defining 'computer' One could even get into the definition of stored program. ENIAC's program was in the form of patch cables until a later revision allowed for stored-in-memory programs. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 14:28:52 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:28:52 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <07b701cbbb25$7eb3ae80$7c1b0b80$@com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <07b701cbbb25$7eb3ae80$7c1b0b80$@com> Message-ID: <4D3C8F84.10100@snarc.net> >> You mean his plagiarizing of other people's work and sticking his own name on it, and then widely distributing that classified document without permission? > I agree with most of the rest of your text, but not with this. Von Neumann did not plagiarize anything. He documented what he learned and passed it up the chain. ... Von Neumann didn't mean to steal credit from the other Johns. I'm curious how you know what his intentions were .... Regardless, VN didn't do anything to dissuade people from giving him credit. He never said, "I just learned this from the others and wrote it up in a nice way and distributed it -- but it's their ideas." Instead, he sat back while the world used "The von Neumann architecture." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 23 14:44:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:44:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C8B0E.8020703@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Jan 23, 11 03:09:50 pm Message-ID: > > > > I have yet to see any proper technical information on either ENIAC > or Colossus. Alas most of the technical-looking links on the > currently-discussed ENIAC site go pages whre you have to be an IEEE > member to go further. > > You might like this page: > http://ftp.arl.army.mil/~mike/comphist/46eniac-report/index.html Thanks, I will take a look. > > > But I was under the impression that neither, in their original form, > were stored-program machines > > True. > > > and that to me would seem to be one criterion for defining 'computer' > > One could even get into the definition of stored program. ENIAC's > program was in the form of patch cables until a later revision allowed > for stored-in-memory programs. When was this stored-program (in the normal sense) system added? Before or after other stored-program machines such as EDSAC Manchester Mk1, etc? And what di the patch cables do? If they were some kind of addressqable 'ROM' that was somehow sequenced, then I would consider that ot be a stored program. If they are interconecting logic blocks (adders, registers, etc) then I most probbly wouldn't As an aside, there were several projects in electronics magazines over here in the 1970s to make a pocket calculator 'programamble'. Typically they ahad a small RAM, the otuptus of which were used to simulate keypresses on the calcualtor. The better ones had some kind of conditional (often dtecting the -ve sign or the position of the decimal point in the display. My view is that the calcuaotr with this kuldge is a stored-program comptuer, without it, it isn;'t. So going ban to ENIAC, it may well have been modified int oa computer at some point, but this doesn't mean it was a computer at the start. I do not, however, dispute the imprtance of ENIAC... -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 15:02:25 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:02:25 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 23, at 6:37 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really a >> computer > > How can any machine be a "computer" if it doesn't have any ability to > run a program? Because it depends on the definition one is working with. As usual, we are in the realm of varying definitions. If we go with the modern understanding of the word, neither the ABC or ENIAC was a computer. Perhaps people should stick to facts: "this did that"; rather than declarations: "this was that". All these machines had their contributions. ENIAC doesn't get to claim everything, and when you boil off all the hyperbole on both sides, I think that was the primary point or outcome of the court case. I drew up this years ago when I was reading more about these issues: http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/conceptsmachines.gif although I don't think I was the first to arrive at such a diagram. Of course there are various improvements that could be made. And I suppose there may be arguments about the arrow from the ABC to ENIAC. >> the calculation of complex and repetitive arithmetic > > Actually, the ABC required * human intervention * after every > calculation. This is not correct. On my site at: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/ABC/omflow.html is a flowchart of the problem solving process using the ABC. Note it carefully distinguishes between what the human operator did and what the ABC did. Note the portions in blue (particularly in stages 2,3,4) include a loop structure with decisions and calculations (on multiple 50-bit binary numbers), all performed automatically. There were 2 or 3 mostly-hard-wired programs in the ABC, those programs had some plug-board flexibility and were data-sensitive. >> both were originally designed for particular purposes > > That's incorrect. You hit upon a common fallacy regarding ENIAC -- > that it was "designed" for Army ballistics purposes. The truth is, > Mauchly was working on a general-purpose computer, and then the Army > Ballistics Lab * funded * his work. Essentially the Army said, "We'll > pay for your research if we get to use it first when it's done." > Unfortunately many people today think that means that ENIAC was > commissioned * by * the Army or at least specifically designed for > them. It's not true! I'm not entirely disagreeing with you but this strikes me as another grey area. Yes, Mauchly was researching automatic computation prior to ENIAC, for other than ballistics purposes. However, I've never seen anything to suggest he had arrived at the design that would become the ENIAC before his time at the Ballistics lab. I'd guess it highly likely Mauchly had his greater purposes in mind as he and Eckert designed ENIAC, but I believe the design of ENIAC took place in the working environment of the Ballistics Lab and was very much targeted at the ballistics calculations it was funded for. The Army funded ENIAC for a specific purpose, not as a general or head-in-the-clouds research effort. On the other hand, I also like to argue the developments would have taken place regardless of the military and the only reason the ENIAC was a 'military' machine was (as with the mis-attribution to Willi Sutton) "That's where the money is". It was a case of desire and interest (a researcher wanting greater computing capabilities), meeting dire and timely need (war/ballistics) which motivated funding (from society through the Army). >> ENIAC was later programmed for other arithmetic tasks, and perhaps >> that would have been possible with the ABC as well > > Perhaps. But it wasn't. Perhaps Columbus would have eventually sailed > in the right direction. He didn't. > Yes, the ABC (like Colossus) was limited in it's flexibility relative to ENIAC. >> history suggests that the ABC just wasn't very well built (it didn't >> have federal dollars behind it!) The ABC was a small project compared to the others being spoken of. There was one aspect of it (base-2 card printing and punching) that had a problematic error rate. The processing and memory aspects apparently did well. > Also not true. Atanasoff spent years and lots of money working in the > Navy Ordnance Lab (at times with Mauchly's assistance) yet he still > failed to make a competitive computer. That was a different effort and project than the ABC, let's not confuse them. >> the factual history ... seems to suggest that the ABC was the first >> of the genre, "electronic digital computer," > > .... Except that its electronic logic was impeded by its > electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to run > a program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". Yes, the ABC was limited by the mechanical drum rotation. However, in his paper about the ASM (Add-Subtract Mechanism[1]), Atanasoff did recognise and promote that the arithmetic or logical computation through that mechanism took place at electronic speeds. To mention, all the drum computers (IBM 650, Bendix G-15, LGP-30, etc) of the 50s were electromechanical by this definition. [1] Use of the word 'Mechanism' in the name is a bit of an anachronism - the ASM was a fully electronic mechanism. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jan 23 15:15:36 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:15:36 -0600 Subject: Continuing adventures with VTServer Message-ID: After another list member kindly patched VTserver.c and recompiled, data would come out on COM2: ok but it still couldn't "hear" the received characters. You won't believe this... the pigtail cable inside the PC, from the motherboard COM2 header to the back-panel DB25, had been installed one position off (by me, of course) =:^O The nonstandard location of TxD and ground on the DB25 should have been my first clue, but I just ass-umed that it was something unique to the PC and not EIA RS-232... I couldn't see any visible damage to the COM2 ribbon cable, but the proof of the pudding was a successful loopback test using a jumper to connect straight to the header pins :) After carefully examining and continuity-checking the pigtail, the inescapable conclusion was that I must have incorrectly plugged it into the header. Sure enough, with proper installation, data comes and goes as ordered. And on the proper pins 2 and 3, also! Recall that, again rather unbelievably, when I first resurrected this old PC from the scrap heap, I found that a mouse had eaten the mouse port cable (not joking) inside the case, but the other ribbon cable pigtail for COM1. Probably I plugged it back in wrong when reinstalling them both. Oh well, live and learn. Now if I could only get TSX-Plus 6.50 to sysgen properly on SIMH, I would have something to VTserve to my PDP-11! -Charles From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 15:16:27 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:16:27 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3C9AAB.4050308@snarc.net> > When was this stored-program (in the normal sense) system added? Before or after other stored-program machines such as EDSAC Manchester Mk1, etc? Good question. Conventional wisdom says it happened in 1948, which is the same year as the Manchester computer. Wikipedia (FWIW) says the Manchester computer first operated on June 21. I don't know when in 1948 ENIAC got its own stored-program ability. But .... here's something interesting to ruffle the Manchester fans' feathers: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/acm-meeting.jpg. It's a memo stating that, at the first meeting of the ACM in 1947, the unfinished EDVAC computer was working and demonstrated. EDVAC was a stored-program machine too. So if the memo's claims are true, then it's possible this function was show pre-Manchester. (Personally I think that argument is pointless. It's not like the Manchester team didn't do any testing; I have to assume that the June 21 day of running its first program was not actually the first day it was turned on and tested. Still, the memo linked above is talking about March 1947, which is a long time before June 1948. So it just might hold water.) > there were several projects in electronics magazines over here in the 1970s to make a pocket calculator 'programamble'. Typically they ahad a small RAM, the otuptus of which were used to simulate keypresses on the calcualtor. The better ones had some kind of conditional (often dtecting the -ve sign or the position of the decimal point in the display. My view is that the calcuaotr with this kuldge is a stored-program comptuer, without it, it isn;'t. So going ban to ENIAC, it may well have been modified int oa computer at some point, but this doesn't mean it was a computer at the start. I disagree about the need for a program to be of the stored variety for the machine to be a computer. What's important is that the program can be accessed at electronic speeds vs. electromechanical speeds. To the ABC advocates, I ask, "How did your machine access its program ... oh wait, I almost forgot, it didn't have one." :) Ergo a calculator -- and not even an all-electronic one at that. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 15:25:21 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:25:21 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3C9CC1.8010903@snarc.net> > Perhaps people should stick to facts: "this did that"; rather than > declarations: "this was that". All these machines had their > contributions. ENIAC doesn't get to claim everything I agree. That's why the page at http://the-eniac.com/first/ is organized exactly as you described. The only thing claimed is that ENIAC was the first "general-purpose, all-electronic" computer. Babbage designed a computer. Unfortunately he wasn't able to build it. Zuse designed a computer, but it was electromechanical. Colossus was an all-electronic computer, but it was single-purpose. What ENIAC did was make the advancement to being general-purpose AND all-electronic. > On my site at: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/ABC/omflow.html is a > flowchart of the problem solving process using the ABC. Note it > carefully distinguishes between what the human operator did and what > the ABC did. A lot to read there! I will have to get back to you. > On the other hand, I also like to argue the developments would have > taken place regardless of the military and the only reason the ENIAC > was a 'military' machine was (as with the mis-attribution to Willi > Sutton) "That's where the money is". Absolutely. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 15:34:46 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 13:34:46 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C3DC4.3070109@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <838a87eb4f9cfdc3c357da79aa502823@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3C3DC4.3070109@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5a87991345f7be300b690081abc2ead2@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 6:40 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> They state: "It?s true that the ABC used vacuum tubes for counting, >> but that concept was already established in other inventions such as >> ray counters." The ABC did not use counters, one of it's most >> significant accomplishments was that it broke from counter-based >> arithmetic to do arithmetic with logic and gates. > > You're right. And you're the second person to point this out to me. > "Counting" is now changed to "logic". I think you still miss the point. Your text now reads: "It?s true that the ABC used vacuum tubes for logic, but that concept was already established in other inventions such as ray counters." Just changing the one word does not account for it. 'Ray counters', if we are talking the same thing, were flip-flops chained into a typical digital counter. Atanasoff's development was to take the notion of performing binary arithmetic in terms of logic gates, not in terms of counting and not implemented in flip-flops and counters, and implement that logic in electronics. (To what degree he actually conceptualised it in _formal_ logic terms, I don't know.) Yes, there were electronic 'coincidence' gates before Atanasoff and the ray counters may have used them for gating pulses into the counter, but there is a fundamental difference between what Atanasoff did and 'ray counters'. An interesting point here is that the ENIAC did not use that concept, instead taking the more-conventional-for-the-time approach of flip-flop-based counters, and it wasn't until the DR on the EDVAC that the logic concept re-emerged, and the EDVAC looked more like the ABC in that they were both bit-serial separated-memory-and-logic machines. You also continue to write further down the page: "because it used vacuum tubes for counting" From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 15:51:26 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:51:26 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <5a87991345f7be300b690081abc2ead2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <838a87eb4f9cfdc3c357da79aa502823@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3C3DC4.3070109@snarc.net> <5a87991345f7be300b690081abc2ead2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3CA2DE.1040703@snarc.net> > Atanasoff's development was to take the notion of performing binary > arithmetic in terms of logic gates I have evidence that he wasn't the first to do this. I know this will sound lame to you, but I haven't got that evidence handy and in a digestable form. I will get it for you. > You also continue to write further down the page: "because it used > vacuum tubes for counting" Thanks for catching that. Will edit it. I'll also add -- www.the-eniac.com is meant to be mostly historical in nature, not extremely technical. Essentially the site owner (as Al mentioned, it's Bill Mauchly) asked my help in writing some historical content. His hope is that people find the site as a useful alternative, in light of Smiley's book. Other than Intel's John Gustafson, who's an avowed ABC guy, there is * nobody * defending her book. (Not counting clueless book reviewers, who focus on the nice story and how she tells it, vs. what actually happened.) Sadly, according to Amazon sales ranks, Smiley's book is on its way to becoming to best-selling computer history book of all time. It's riddled with major mistakes, and it not only calls Mauchly a thief, but even implies that he had something to do with Cliff Berry's death. (Tongue firmly in cheek, Bill M. wrote to me, "My dad wasn't only a crook, he was a murderer ... not bad!") I know Al can't speak for CHM so I will not put him on the spot. However I personally feel it's terrible that CHM is giving Smiley a forum to tell her ill-researched story and be taken seriously. There was even one senior CHM employee -- I will absolutely not name that person or give any hints that could reveal their identity -- who wrote to me and AGREED with my assessment of Smiley's book. So I hope that CHM and its audience uses the opportunity to challenge Smiley in person, not accept her drivel as good work. (Smiley herself is massively backpedaling in recent interviews. She claims the book is about ALL of the people whose work LED to computers. If that's true, then why did she allow her publisher to call it "The Man Who Invented the Computer" vs. "The * MEN (plural)"...... ???? As a Pulitzer winner she certainly has the leverage to not let a publisher push her around. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 23 16:26:19 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 14:26:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to run a > program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". Perhaps you could enlighten us with the definitive definistion of "computer"? > You mean his plagiarizing of other people's work and sticking his own > name on it, and then widely distributing that classified document > without permission? Yes, i agree. :) like Vannevar Bush? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 16:30:06 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 14:30:06 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C9AAB.4050308@snarc.net> References: <4D3C9AAB.4050308@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 23, at 1:16 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> When was this stored-program (in the normal sense) system added? >> Before or after other stored-program machines such as EDSAC >> Manchester Mk1, etc? > > Good question. Conventional wisdom says it happened in 1948, which is > the same year as the Manchester computer. Wikipedia (FWIW) says the > Manchester computer first operated on June 21. I don't know when in > 1948 ENIAC got its own stored-program ability. The 1948 modifications were to use the function tables (hundreds of manually-set switches) as an instruction ROM. This didn't really make it a 'stored-program' machine in terms of what the concept meant even back then (data and modifiable instructions in one R/W memory), it was a half-way step. In modern terms it would probably be described as a ROM-based Harvard-architecture machine at that point. Some core was later added, but that of course would have to be after core was developed (>1952). Exactly how the architecture would be described at that point I don't know. > But .... here's something interesting to ruffle the Manchester fans' > feathers: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/acm-meeting.jpg. It's > a memo stating that, at the first meeting of the ACM in 1947, the > unfinished EDVAC computer was working and demonstrated. EDVAC was a > stored-program machine too. So if the memo's claims are true, then > it's possible this function was show pre-Manchester. > > (Personally I think that argument is pointless. It's not like the > Manchester team didn't do any testing; I have to assume that the June > 21 day of running its first program was not actually the first day it > was turned on and tested. Still, the memo linked above is talking > about March 1947, which is a long time before June 1948. So it just > might hold water.) From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 16:35:02 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 17:35:02 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> >> electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to run a program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". > Perhaps you could enlighten us with the definitive definistion of "computer"? Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 16:51:01 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 14:51:01 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C9CC1.8010903@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3C9CC1.8010903@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4f952b2aa92cf289451a438155f9e506@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 1:25 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Perhaps people should stick to facts: "this did that"; rather than >> declarations: "this was that". All these machines had their >> contributions. ENIAC doesn't get to claim everything > > I agree. That's why the page at http://the-eniac.com/first/ is > organized exactly as you described. The only thing claimed is that > ENIAC was the first "general-purpose, all-electronic" computer. > > Babbage designed a computer. Unfortunately he wasn't able to build > it. Zuse designed a computer, but it was electromechanical. > Colossus was an all-electronic computer, but it was single-purpose. TMU, Colossus was actually like the ABC in that it did some processing in electronics but the primary data flow still had electro-mechanics in the path (giant paper tape loops). The electronics was still beneficial in both because continually rotating mechanisms (ABC:drum, Colossus:paper tape loops) could operate at higher speeds than toggling relays (changing momentum). > What ENIAC did was make the advancement to being general-purpose AND > all-electronic. Yes. But the ABC still needs credit in that list for what it did do. >> On my site at: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/ABC/omflow.html is a >> flowchart of the problem solving process using the ABC. Note it >> carefully distinguishes between what the human operator did and what >> the ABC did. > > A lot to read there! I will have to get back to you. > >> On the other hand, I also like to argue the developments would have >> taken place regardless of the military and the only reason the ENIAC >> was a 'military' machine was (as with the mis-attribution to Willi >> Sutton) "That's where the money is". > > Absolutely. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 17:09:17 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:09:17 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> Message-ID: <9f6329cbeb4f7fcbda8a270f8fd441bd@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 2:35 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to >>> run a program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". >> Perhaps you could enlighten us with the definitive definistion of >> "computer"? > > Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's > subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very > least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? I know you want to distinguish between a computer and a calculator, and of course there is a pertinent distinction to be made between programmable devices and those that are not, but I think historically 'computer' is pretty much anything that computes. The Antikythera mechanism is referred to as a computer. Such things as bombsights and artillery aiming devices are application-specific analog computers. They are configurable with different parameters, but they always solve the same equation. They are different than programmable analog computers, but nonetheless are still called computers. If I want to distinguish something as programmable I call it programmable. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jan 23 17:11:47 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:11:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3C58C2.8000709@neurotica.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, , <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3BE609.3055.883BF@cclist.sydex.com> <4D3C58C2.8000709@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20110123150636.L47428@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 23 Jan 2011, Dave McGuire wrote: > button? Circa 1974, huh? No, I'm clearly nuts, computers only came > around in the 1990s, "when modems were invented so we could surf the > Internet". The definition is quite "fluid" - it is "defined" primarily by people who have no expertise. The majority of people will define "computer", or at least "first computer" based ENTIRELY on what ahd when first got their attention. Thus, there are some media "writers" who think only in terms of Apple][, IBM PC, Mac. Too many people equate the history of computers with WWW. If there had not been porn on the web, would the public have ever even noticed computers? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 17:16:23 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 18:16:23 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <9f6329cbeb4f7fcbda8a270f8fd441bd@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> <9f6329cbeb4f7fcbda8a270f8fd441bd@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3CB6C7.9060204@snarc.net> >> Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's >> subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very >> least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? > > > I know you want to distinguish between a computer and a calculator, > and of course there is a pertinent distinction to be made between > programmable devices and those that are not, but I think historically > 'computer' is pretty much anything that computes. The Antikythera > mechanism is referred to as a computer. Actually I've been arguing for years that he Ant. is not a computer. But that is a whole different thread. Let's table that one, okay? :) > Such things as bombsights and artillery aiming devices are > application-specific analog computers. They are configurable with > different parameters, but they always solve the same equation. They > are different than programmable analog computers, but nonetheless are > still called computers. Analog is a whole different can of worms. If it makes you happy then I consent to adding the prefix "digital" to everything I've said so far. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 23 17:26:32 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:26:32 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net>, <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D3C48A8.1839.189C22F@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2011 at 14:26, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > electromechanical everything else; and that without the ability to > > run a program, it doesn't meet the definition of "computer". > > Perhaps you could enlighten us with the definitive definistion of > "computer"? Well, if you collect such documents, pull out the ANSI standards document for COBOL or FORTRAN and read the preface commentary. A "computer" is designated by anything, and particularly humans, that computes. Period. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 17:44:40 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 15:44:40 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3CA2DE.1040703@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <838a87eb4f9cfdc3c357da79aa502823@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3C3DC4.3070109@snarc.net> <5a87991345f7be300b690081abc2ead2@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3CA2DE.1040703@snarc.net> Message-ID: <52335c73b16854ffb7eafcafc5f24fa5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 1:51 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Atanasoff's development was to take the notion of performing binary >> arithmetic in terms of logic gates > > I have evidence that he wasn't the first to do this. I know this will > sound lame to you, but I haven't got that evidence handy and in a > digestable form. I will get it for you. Could be interesting, but keep in mind the point is implementing those concepts in electronics (part of my statement is cut above), not just the theory. The concepts were out there in the 30's (e.g. Shannon's paper on relays and logic), and being implemented in relays: Stibitz's K-model and the CNC. Roughly, what Stibitz did for calculation and relays, Atanasoff did for calculation and electronics. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 18:08:32 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 19:08:32 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4f952b2aa92cf289451a438155f9e506@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3C9CC1.8010903@snarc.net> <4f952b2aa92cf289451a438155f9e506@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3CC300.5070201@snarc.net> > TMU, Colossus was actually like the ABC in that it did some processing > in electronics but the primary data flow still had electro-mechanics > in the path (giant paper tape loops). So you're saying Colossus was * not * fully electronic? I didn't know that. Very interesting. > >> What ENIAC did was make the advancement to being general-purpose AND >> all-electronic. > > Yes. > > But the ABC still needs credit in that list for what it did do. You might have a point there. I'll think about adding in what the ABC * did * do. Maybe I'll write something about how it innovated in using electronics for calculating. But I'm also sticking with "no program = not a computer." From geoffr at zipcon.net Sun Jan 23 18:39:58 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 16:39:58 -0800 Subject: Continuing adventures with VTServer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/23/11 1:15 PM, "Charles" wrote: > After another list member kindly patched VTserver.c and > recompiled, data would come out on COM2: ok but it still couldn't > "hear" the received characters. > > You won't believe this... the pigtail cable inside the PC, from > the motherboard COM2 header to the back-panel DB25, had been > installed one position off (by me, of course) =:^O You're welcome. I am looking at the source and some examples so I can compile it to allow specifying the com port on the command line :) then I will make the modified source available :) I also fixed what looked like a minor bug to me in that it showed a bogus port address for what it was communicating on the PC with. From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 19:50:39 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:50:39 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> > I drew up this years ago when I was reading more about these issues: > http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/conceptsmachines.gif > although I don't think I was the first to arrive at such a diagram. Of > course there are various improvements that could be made. And I > suppose there may be arguments about the arrow from the ABC to ENIAC. I admit that your ABC page is over my head, technical-wise. So, I asked Bill M. for his opinion. Here is what he said (with permission for me to quote it here): ---------------------------------- The [Atanasoff] machine had several operations, which were initiated by pressing the appropriate button. Two of them were decimal input and output, and just one that did arithmetic. Calling the arithmetic operation "programmable" and assigning it an adjective like "data-sensitive" is a stretch; if you use those terms so loosely, you will have to say a mechanical adding machine also has those properties. There were 30 separate adders and 30 pairs of coefs. The user had to select which pair was to be eliminated. This selection happened by the human moving a jumper cable from one set of holes to another. Selecting one of the 30 for final output happened in a similar way, I believe. The I/O for cards happened in groups of 5 and had real switches. But except for selecting an input, there are no "programmable options" on the arithmetic. There was a switch you could set, so that it would either start with a subtract or start with an add. (Once it started it would flip back and forth.) The user has to know which way to set this by examining the signs of the coefs. I wouldn't call this a programmable option as much as a hazard. If you set it the wrong way, the machine runs forever and never finishes. (Well, not forever, it will definitely finish in 2 to 50th seconds. 35M years.) As to the other part, data sensitivity, this is somewhat true. The machine is doing a "long" division by repeated adding and subtracting. In the end, the result is just a simple math operation, but the length of time it takes is dependent on the actual numbers you plug in. It is literally just testing if the sign bit flipped, and throwing a relay each time it does. I guess you could say every multiplier is data dependent. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 22:32:59 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 20:32:59 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 5:50 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> I drew up this years ago when I was reading more about these issues: >> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/conceptsmachines.gif >> although I don't think I was the first to arrive at such a diagram. >> Of course there are various improvements that could be made. And I >> suppose there may be arguments about the arrow from the ABC to ENIAC. > > I admit that your ABC page is over my head, technical-wise. So, I > asked Bill M. for his opinion. Here is what he said (with permission > for me to quote it here): > > ---------------------------------- > The [Atanasoff] machine had several operations, which were initiated > by pressing the appropriate button. Two of them were decimal input > and output, and just one that did arithmetic. This is not correct. The decimal input and output operations did binary <-> decimal conversion. These involved a loop with repeated full-register additions and subtractions (arithmetic) and sensing of the data state (data-sensitive) along the way. This is shown in the flowchart. The other operation was pair-elimination which was a similar loop. > Calling the arithmetic operation "programmable" and assigning it an > adjective like "data-sensitive" is a stretch; if you use those terms > so loosely, you will have to say a mechanical adding machine also has > those properties. To be accurate I did not call or claim it to be programmable and I too would be reluctant to do so. I said there was some flexibility in the internal programs and I agree it was limited. The jumpers mentioned below actually select which register the sign and zero detection would be performed on in the loop. Dismissing the points by equating them with mechanical adding machines is flippant. No, mechanical adding machines do not have the properties mentioned, however mechanical machines with built-in and multiplication and division were complex machines. More below about M & D. Sometimes one has to look at underlying concepts rather than common surface-level perceptions. > There were 30 separate adders and 30 pairs of coefs. The user had to > select which pair was to be eliminated. This selection happened by > the human moving a jumper cable from one set of holes to another. > Selecting one of the 30 for final output happened in a similar way, I > believe. The I/O for cards happened in groups of 5 and had real > switches. > > But except for selecting an input, there are no "programmable options" > on the arithmetic. There was a switch you could set, so that it > would either start with a subtract or start with an add. (Once it > started it would flip back and forth.) The user has to know which way > to set this by examining the signs of the coefs. I wouldn't call this > a programmable option as much as a hazard. If you set it the wrong > way, the machine runs forever and never finishes. (Well, not forever, > it will definitely finish in 2 to 50th seconds. 35M years.) -- > As to the other part, data sensitivity, this is somewhat true. The > machine is doing a "long" division by repeated adding and subtracting. > In the end, the result is just a simple math operation, but the > length of time it takes is dependent on the actual numbers you plug > in. It is literally just testing if the sign bit flipped, and > throwing a relay each time it does. I guess you could say every > multiplier is data dependent. This is largely correct, but dismissing the ABC on the above is again flippant. Multiplication and division have been implemented as small programs throughout the history of computers, be it in a hardware state machine, microcode, or (frequently) as instruction-level programs as many machines do not provide those ops as instructions. Various 'real computers' have gotten by with little or nothing more than sign- and/or zero-detection for data-sensitivity/conditional operation, just as the ABC provides. One of the first three programs to run on the Manchester Baby (first stored program machine) was Turing's long division routine. The other two were factoring routines and no more complex. Routines like this were enough to exercise the machine and show it could do practical work. The relative scale of the projects should also be kept in mind, ENIAC was a large well-funded project, ABC was a small two-man project. Despite it's small size, the concepts embodied and implemented in the ABC were significant. ENIAC was much larger but which machine actually embodied more original concepts is not obvious to answer. I don't like to overstate what the ABC did, which is why I prepared that web article about it, to try to put down concisely what it did technically. I think some have overstated what it did it on occasion, but it is also about time the ENIAC supporters acknowledged what the ABC did do, rather than just trying to dismiss it. I understand there are the familial/emotional issues of having Mauchly's name dragged through the mud and I can sympathise on that. And I understand there may still be differing opinions on how much influence Mauchly obtained from Atanasoff. But the technical assessments need to be separated from those matters. If one were to take the same attitude I perceive from ENIAC supporters in their dismissal of the ABC, one could just as easily dismiss the ENIAC: it wasn't a stored program machine, took hours to change a program, wasn't a universal machine, could only operate on decimal numbers, could not do general symbolic logic at least with any facility, had next to no memory, couldn't do the things the machines that came after it could, was an architectural dead-end, was just an overblown calculator, it simply wasn't a 'computer'. The ABC had an architecture closer to the stored-program proto-design EDVAC than did ENIAC. Computing history began with the stored program machines, Turing laid the theoretical basis for stored program machines, the Manchester Baby was the first one to run, the EDSAC was the first one to provide real service. And those were all British developments. So there. (..and I'm not British.) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 23 22:44:17 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 23:44:17 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Computing history began with the stored > program machines, The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it seems there is no precise point when computing history began. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 23:04:41 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 21:04:41 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3CC300.5070201@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3C9CC1.8010903@snarc.net> <4f952b2aa92cf289451a438155f9e506@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3CC300.5070201@snarc.net> Message-ID: <208b4b1a6308ba8daf7855c0b1b7b6ca@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 4:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> TMU, Colossus was actually like the ABC in that it did some >> processing in electronics but the primary data flow still had >> electro-mechanics in the path (giant paper tape loops). > > So you're saying Colossus was * not * fully electronic? I didn't know > that. Very interesting. Yes, it was not fully electronic. The ciphertext was on a long paper tape loop cycling at high speed through pulleys and an optical reader. The wheels of the Lorenz cipher machine were simulated with electronics and data from the tape and wheels were compared through a logical function again in electronics. The paper tape data was not "loaded into" the machine, it was a primary data source throughout the processing. Although - it was running at 5000 characters per second, so I guess that's getting into a grey area as to whether the electronics (of the time) were being limited by the mechanical. >>> What ENIAC did was make the advancement to being general-purpose >>> AND all-electronic. >> >> Yes. >> >> But the ABC still needs credit in that list for what it did do. > > You might have a point there. I'll think about adding in what the ABC > * did * do. Maybe I'll write something about how it innovated in > using electronics for calculating. I think that would be good. If I can help clarify anything, feel free to ask. Check out the beginning page of my ABC article if you haven't, as well as the ASM page. > But I'm also sticking with "no program = not a computer." > As you wish for the definition of computer you choose. Not programmable: I'd tend to agree. No program: that's not so clear, I'd tend to disagree. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 23 23:07:34 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 21:07:34 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <1488f52762c6ad9d6668e17ad99c5168@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 23, at 8:44 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Computing history began with the stored >> program machines, > > The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. > I do hope it was clear I was being utterly rhetorical (one never knows how things will be interpreted). From evan at snarc.net Sun Jan 23 23:11:31 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 00:11:31 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> > Dismissing the points by equating them with mechanical adding machines > is flippant. No, mechanical adding machines do not have the properties > mentioned, however mechanical machines with built-in and > multiplication and division were complex machines. There are many complex calculating machines that aren't computers. > dismissing the ABC on the above is again flippant. Multiplication and > division have been implemented as small programs throughout the > history of computers, be it in a hardware state machine, microcode, or > (frequently) as instruction-level programs as many machines do not > provide those ops as instructions. Various 'real computers' have > gotten by with little or nothing more than sign- and/or zero-detection > for data-sensitivity/conditional operation, just as the ABC provides. That m/d is one point among many; nobody's saying it was a useless technique. > the Manchester Baby (first stored program machine) Not necessarily; see my email citing the 1947 EDVAC memo. > I don't like to overstate what the ABC did, which is why I prepared > that web article about it, to try to put down concisely what it did > technically. I think some have overstated what it did it on occasion, > but it is also about time the ENIAC supporters acknowledged what the > ABC did do, rather than just trying to dismiss it. I understand there > are the familial/emotional issues of having Mauchly's name dragged > through the mud and I can sympathise on that. And I understand there > may still be differing opinions on how much influence Mauchly obtained > from Atanasoff. But the technical assessments need to be separated > from those matters. You're right. I am rewriting parts of the new web site to reflect this. > ENIAC .... took hours to change a program That was certainly one of the biggest knocks against it. A fast computer has limited utility if setting up the program was tedious. > wasn't a universal machine Please elaborate. > was an architectural dead-end That's not true, but I think you and I each made our points already about ABC and ENIAC. > was just an overblown calculator, it simply wasn't a 'computer' :-) > stored program machines, the Manchester Baby was the first one to run See above, re: Baby. > EDSAC was the first one to provide real service. Oy! ENIAC was providing "real service", i.e. running important applications for academia, government, and the Army, by 1945 (and with a stored program by 1948). EDSAC wasn't even a pipe dream in 1945, and didn't go into operation until 1949. Truce? From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jan 24 00:02:57 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:02:57 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 24 00:32:01 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 23 Jan 2011 22:32:01 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 23, at 9:11 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> Dismissing the points by equating them with mechanical adding >> machines is flippant. No, mechanical adding machines do not have the >> properties mentioned, however mechanical machines with built-in and >> multiplication and division were complex machines. > > There are many complex calculating machines that aren't computers. > >> dismissing the ABC on the above is again flippant. Multiplication and >> division have been implemented as small programs throughout the >> history of computers, be it in a hardware state machine, microcode, >> or (frequently) as instruction-level programs as many machines do not >> provide those ops as instructions. Various 'real computers' have >> gotten by with little or nothing more than sign- and/or >> zero-detection for data-sensitivity/conditional operation, just as >> the ABC provides. > > That m/d is one point among many; nobody's saying it was a useless > technique. > >> the Manchester Baby (first stored program machine) > > Not necessarily; see my email citing the 1947 EDVAC memo. Yes, I did see that and it sounds interesting, but the consensus for the time being is still the Baby. >> I don't like to overstate what the ABC did, which is why I prepared >> that web article about it, to try to put down concisely what it did >> technically. I think some have overstated what it did it on occasion, >> but it is also about time the ENIAC supporters acknowledged what the >> ABC did do, rather than just trying to dismiss it. I understand there >> are the familial/emotional issues of having Mauchly's name dragged >> through the mud and I can sympathise on that. And I understand there >> may still be differing opinions on how much influence Mauchly >> obtained from Atanasoff. But the technical assessments need to be >> separated from those matters. > > You're right. I am rewriting parts of the new web site to reflect this. > >> ENIAC .... took hours to change a program > > That was certainly one of the biggest knocks against it. A fast > computer has limited utility if setting up the program was tedious. And one of the primary issues that led to the development of the stored program concept. See below. >> wasn't a universal machine > > Please elaborate. In the Universal Turing Machine sense, from computing theory. A UTM can compute a certain class of functions. Any machine with a certain set of capabilities can be shown to be a UTM equivalent and thereby able to compute the same set of functions. With the assumption of being given enough memory and enough time. That is, the assessment is made on qualitative characterisation not quantitative. All our general purpose machines today are UTM equivalents. Harvard arch microcontrollers arguably excepted. I think it would be difficult to construe the ENIAC into a UTM equivalent. Although this quote from the Wikipedia article is intriguing: "Minsky goes on to demonstrate Turing equivalence of a counter machine" There was an interesting article a few years ago that showed the Zuse Z3 (1941, harvard-arch relay machine) could be turned into a UTMeq by providing it with a program implementing a stored-program pseudo machine. >> was an architectural dead-end > > That's not true, but I think you and I each made our points already > about ABC and ENIAC. The point is that the EDVAC and the stored-program-machine/UTM-equivalents that came after bore no architectural resemblance to the ENIAC. (Architecture here meaning the processor structure, not the implementation (tubes, relays, etc.)) ENIAC's accomplishment was to achieve electronic speed computation. At the same time it achieved that, it exposed it's own shortcoming: the programming bottleneck. Enormous amounts of computing time were lost while the program was changed. All those cables and plugs and switches needed to be changed into electronic switches controlled by an equally fast memory. Along with issues related to memory assignment, a radical change in architecture was necessary and the stored program concept was created. And there we step into the fog of what happened in those meetings and how much Von Neumann with some knowledge of Turing's Turing machine paper from the 30s influenced that creation. Some interesting comments under stored program concept on: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Turing_machine >> was just an overblown calculator, it simply wasn't a 'computer' > > :-) > >> stored program machines, the Manchester Baby was the first one to run > > See above, re: Baby. > >> EDSAC was the first one to provide real service. > > Oy! ENIAC was providing "real service", i.e. running important > applications for academia, government, and the Army, by 1945 (and with > a stored program by 1948). EDSAC wasn't even a pipe dream in 1945, > and didn't go into operation until 1949. Keeping in mind the rhetoric.. if the ENIAC wasn't a computer then the EDSAC gets that credit. (I'd disagree about the 1948 stored program ENIAC, as I mentioned in a previous message.) > Truce? What? This list finally has a good thread about computing history and you want to stop!? (Yes, I do have to get other things done, too.) From evan at snarc.net Mon Jan 24 00:38:08 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 01:38:08 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3D1E50.4050301@snarc.net> >> Truce? > > What? This list finally has a good thread about computing history and > you want to stop!? (Yes, I do have to get other things done, too.) Exactamundo. If I wanted to drag it on, then I would have commented: > ENIAC's accomplishment was to achieve electronic speed computation. At > the same time it achieved that, it exposed it's own shortcoming: the > programming bottleneck I agree, not like the ABC .... oh darn it, I still keep forgetting, the ABC * didn't have * a program to slow it down. ;) Goodnight. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Jan 24 01:13:49 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 07:13:49 -0000 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Gentlemen I think what is missing here is he concept of evolution. There is no 'first', only steps on the path from primitive counting to to-days systems. First implies an absolute like climbing Mount Everest. With computing there is no reachable end goal. The mountain is of infinite height. Identifying significant contributors is very valid however. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith Sent: 24 January 2011 06:03 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ENIAC .... William Donzelli wrote: > The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 24 07:57:40 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:57:40 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <201101240857.40749.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, January 24, 2011, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Gentlemen > I think what is missing here is he concept of evolution. There is no > 'first', only steps on the path from primitive counting to to-days > systems. I don't believe in machine "evolution", only in machine "intelligent design". :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 24 09:52:20 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:52:20 +0000 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual Message-ID: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just bought myself another Big, Heavy Hard Drive... This time, it's a CDC/Magnetic Peripherals 94205-51, 42MB MFM, 5.25in Half Height, (though it looks a lot bigger than 5.25in), with an ST412 style interface. I also snagged a Western Digital WD1003-WA2 MFM controller, and a full set of cables. Whether I'll be able to fit the WD1003 into the 386 PC remains to be seen: if it will fit, it'll be a tight squeeze. As for condition, there are few bad tracks marked on the drive label, but it spins, appears to pass the seek test, and unlocks the actuator successfully (there's a loud CLACK just before the seek test starts). Question: Does anyone have an OEM Manual or similar for this drive? There's a manual for the Wren II ESDI on Bitsavers, but apparently not for this drive. I can work from the ST506 spec if need be, but the original manual would be nice to have. For the pathologically curious: I'm building an ST412 adapter for the DiscFerret (details will, of course, be published "when it's done"). It turns out I've over-engineered the DiscFerret's PSU quite significantly: even with the 20W load the Wren places on the power rails, the PSU doesn't even break a sweat... I'll probably end up adding a 4-way DIP switch to set the "drive select" value, and run it off of the Ferret's DS0. That leaves me with DS1 to use for head-switching, along with a few other I/Os which are on the Shugart floppy interface but not the ST506 Control connector. MFM RDAT/WDAT will be fed to the High Speed I/O connector for obvious reasons :) I'm planning on replacing the "recommended" 75157/75158 "dual differential driver/receiver" pair with a 26LS31/26LS32 quad diff RX/TX pair on the grounds that: * The 26LS parts are cheaper by about a factor of 3 * the 26LS parts seem to be easier to find (higher stock levels at Farnell and Digikey when I last checked). Anyone reckon I'm likely to have any problems with this substitution? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jan 24 09:58:12 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:58:12 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... Message-ID: Evan writes: > BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very > least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? Personally, I would not agree. In the 1940's "computing" definitely meant solving systems of linear equations (ABC) and artillery tables (ENIAC) and other applications (e.g. Analytical Engine). Note that even today LAPACK (linear equations) is the Standard supercomputer benchmark. In the 2000's "computing" usually means E-mail, Web, and Word Processing, all of which can be done on machines that lack or lock out end-user programming. And compare with 21st century "quantum computing" which is set up on optical benches. Tim. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 24 10:38:00 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 08:38:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors Message-ID: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Here's something I was thinking about the other day. I *know* for a fact that SCSI interface hard drives existed with 8" platters. I've never seen one, however. Does anyone know of any specific model numbers, or have any product information or pictures of such devices? Along the same lines, did SCSI interface devices exist with 14" platters? An option for the venerable Fujitsu Eagle, perhaps? I know that Adaptec made a standalone SCSI-SMD bridge board. I have one, although I've never been able to get it to work. I got as far as hand-crafting SCSI commands to try to get it to format the drive, and it would sit there, device active, but the drive never stepped or seeked off the first cylinder. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 11:01:05 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:01:05 -0500 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors In-Reply-To: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Along the same lines, did SCSI interface devices exist with 14" platters? An option for the venerable Fujitsu Eagle, perhaps? I think some of the Argus 14" drives were SCSI. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 24 11:03:39 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 09:03:39 -0800 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors In-Reply-To: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 8:38 AM -0800 1/24/11, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >Here's something I was thinking about the other day. I *know* for a >fact that SCSI interface hard drives existed with 8" platters. I've >never seen one, however. Does anyone know of any specific model >numbers, or have any product information or pictures of such devices? > >Along the same lines, did SCSI interface devices exist with 14" >platters? An option for the venerable Fujitsu Eagle, perhaps? > >I know that Adaptec made a standalone SCSI-SMD bridge board. I have >one, although I've never been able to get it to work. I got as far >as hand-crafting SCSI commands to try to get it to format the drive, >and it would sit there, device active, but the drive never stepped >or seeked off the first cylinder. > >-Ian Interesting question, I've never seen any sign of 8" SCSI drives. I have some DEC 8" RA series drives, they're the largest physically that I own (I don't have an RA8x drives). The largest SCSI drives I've ever seen were 5.25" full-height. I've also seen ESDI drives with SCSI converters. Even early on, many of the SCSI HD's were 3.5", so I've always thought of the 5.25" full-height drives as the large form factor. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 11:17:54 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:17:54 -0500 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors In-Reply-To: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Here's something I was thinking about the other day. I *know* for a fact that SCSI interface hard drives existed with 8" platters. I've never seen one, however. I have seen them. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 11:25:11 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:25:11 -0600 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors In-Reply-To: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D3DB5F7.2010307@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I know that Adaptec made a standalone SCSI-SMD bridge board. I have one, > although I've never been able to get it to work. I got as far as > hand-crafting SCSI commands to try to get it to format the drive, and it > would sit there, device active, but the drive never stepped or seeked off > the first cylinder. I wonder if it needs some vendor-specific command to define the attached drive geometry before it'll do anything? Lots of old SCSI-to-something converters worked that way. (Does it support - and return something sensible for - the Inquiry command? Some converters did at least respond to that without any initial setup, and it'd at least indicate that your board's partially operational and listening) cheers Jules From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jan 24 11:26:41 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:26:41 -0500 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors Message-ID: > Here's something I was thinking about the other day. I > *know* for a fact that SCSI interface hard drives existed > with 8" platters. I've never seen one, however. Does anyone > know of any specific model numbers, or have any product > information or pictures of such devices? CDC/Imprimis/Seagate Sabre drives were 8" and available with a variety Of interfaces. SMD, IPI-2, SCSI. J on the end is SMD, K On the end is IPI-2, G on the end is SCSI. The part numbers Are dizzying depending on whether's it's a CDC or Seagate number... 97201-12G is a CDC number, ST81236N is the Seagate number. > Along the same lines, did SCSI interface devices exist with > 14" platters? An option for the venerable Fujitsu Eagle, perhaps? To be nitpicky Eagles are 10.5" platters in a 14" form factor. > I know that Adaptec made a standalone SCSI-SMD bridge board. I > have one, although I've never been able to get it to work. I > got as far as hand-crafting SCSI commands to try to get it to > format the drive, and it would sit there, device active, but > the drive never stepped or seeked off the first cylinder. I have seen Eagles with bridge cards in the back. I don't think Fujitsu made them that way but they were added by US-based vendors. You are most likely to find Sabre and SCSI-SMD bridge drives if you find Late 80's/early 90's Sun installations. If you're lucky you can find Some SCSI-Pertec Formatted bridges and tape drives too. Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jan 24 11:50:07 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 12:50:07 -0500 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors Message-ID: > I think some of the Argus 14" drives were SCSI. Oooh, trying to find some overlap here... Ferranti Argus? I'm stretching it though :-) Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 24 12:09:08 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 10:09:08 -0800 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D3D4FC4.30058.1ADC38@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2011 at 15:52, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Question: Does anyone have an OEM Manual or similar for this drive? > There's a manual for the Wren II ESDI on Bitsavers, but apparently not > for this drive. I can work from the ST506 spec if need be, but the > original manual would be nice to have. I have a Wren II manual, but not sure about the interface. I'll check later today. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 24 13:39:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:39:41 -0800 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3D4FC4.30058.1ADC38@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk>, <4D3D4FC4.30058.1ADC38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D3D64FD.13298.6DC0FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2011 at 10:09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a Wren II manual, but not sure about the interface. I'll check > later today. I'll be darned--I found it. 77738035, Rev. H, April 1986. "This OEM Manual 77738035 provides the basic information and instructions for installing and operating Control Data WREN II Disk Drives; Models 94151, 94155 and 94156. It also provides information to aid in servicing those parts of the drive external to the sealed enclosure." Do you want me to scan and forward the whole thing to you? It's not terribly long, only about 40 pages. Or was there something specific that you were interested in? --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 24 13:56:15 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 19:56:15 +0000 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3D64FD.13298.6DC0FC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk>, <4D3D4FC4.30058.1ADC38@cclist.sydex.com> <4D3D64FD.13298.6DC0FC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D3DD95F.5010908@philpem.me.uk> On 24/01/11 19:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'll be darned--I found it. 77738035, Rev. H, April 1986. > > "This OEM Manual 77738035 provides the basic information and > instructions for installing and operating Control Data WREN II Disk > Drives; Models 94151, 94155 and 94156. It also provides information > to aid in servicing those parts of the drive external to the sealed > enclosure." Does it cover the physical interface for the 94155? (I ask because the 94151 is SASI, the '155 is ST506, and the 156 is ESDI). In any case, it's a good few months newer than the 94156-specific manual that's on Bitsavers (which is dated August 1985, rev B) and is described as a "product specification" rather than a full OEM manual. > Do you want me to scan and forward the whole thing to you? It's not > terribly long, only about 40 pages. Would you mind? I hope I'm not asking too much... (And if Al doesn't want it for Bitsavers, I'll set up a 'disc drive manuals' section on the DiscFerret site and put it there!) Thanks again, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 24 15:09:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 21:09:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3CB6C7.9060204@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Jan 23, 11 06:16:23 pm Message-ID: > > 'computer' is pretty much anything that computes. The Antikythera > > mechanism is referred to as a computer. > > Actually I've been arguing for years that he Ant. is not a computer. I wasn't aware anyone conisdered it to be a computer. The earliest known mechncail calculating device, sure. [...] > Analog is a whole different can of worms. If it makes you happy then I > consent to adding the prefix "digital" to everything I've said so far. Isn't the Ant. device analogue? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 24 14:48:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 20:48:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 23, 11 01:02:25 pm Message-ID: > > On 2011 Jan 23, at 6:37 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >> This site promote the hoary old argument that the ABC wasn't really a > >> computer > > > > How can any machine be a "computer" if it doesn't have any ability to > > run a program? > > Because it depends on the definition one is working with. As usual, we > are in the realm of varying definitions. If we go with the modern > understanding of the word, neither the ABC or ENIAC was a computer. Ditto Colossus (I believe). I have no problem with that. They are significant machines, they are certainy staps in the devlopment of the modern computer, but that doesn't make thmm computers themselves. So? And of course defitions change over time. 15 years ago (say), if you said that yuour PC had 1GByte of memory, you would most likely have been regarded as clueless because you were confuising hard disk size and RAM size. But go back 35 years and companies like HP refered to 'disk memory' and 'cassette memory' in their manuals. It's hard to claim that HP were clueless. And the defintiion of 'computer' has certain;y changed. I think the original definiton was 'somebody who does calculations'. Then it bacame 'a person who operates a calculating machine'. And then the (programamble) machine itself. I think one of the papers on what we would now call a 'computer' (probably EDSAC) uses the word 'computer' to mean what we would now call an ALU (or maybe the data path -- ALU + registers). > Perhaps people should stick to facts: "this did that"; rather than > declarations: "this was that". Sure. And I don't think anybody doubts that ENIAC made a contribution to computing. However, the term 'eelctronic digital computer' in its modern meaning would seem to imply a stroed program. Byt that definition, ENIAC in its origianl form was not a 'computer'. Whether ENIAC was the first machine (after modifications) to run a stored program is something I do not know. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 24 14:52:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 20:52:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Continuing adventures with VTServer In-Reply-To: from "Charles" at Jan 23, 11 03:15:36 pm Message-ID: > You won't believe this... the pigtail cable inside the PC, from > the motherboard COM2 header to the back-panel DB25, had been > installed one position off (by me, of course) =3D:^O > > The nonstandard location of TxD and ground on the DB25 should have > been my first clue, but I just ass-umed that it was something > unique to the PC and not EIA RS-232... Actually, if a PC serial port is a DB25, it's nearly always wired as a subset of the RS232 standard, and as a DTE. It's easy to be wise after the event, of course, but if I'd seen a supposed serial port on a DB25 connector with the signals in the wrong places, I would ahve checked things out. I don't recall you mentioning this 'odd' pinout earlier, but I maw well ahve bmissed it/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 24 15:25:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 21:25:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 24, 11 03:52:20 pm Message-ID: > I'm planning on replacing the "recommended" 75157/75158 "dual > differential driver/receiver" pair with a 26LS31/26LS32 quad diff RX/TX > pair on the grounds that: > * The 26LS parts are cheaper by about a factor of 3 > * the 26LS parts seem to be easier to find (higher stock levels at > Farnell and Digikey when I last checked). > > Anyone reckon I'm likely to have any problems with this substitution? I am assuming this is for the data in/out signals on the ST412 interface... Every (I think, if not then a very large majority) of the ST412 disk drives and controllers I've reverse-engineered, looked at, or reparied over the years has used the 26LS31 nad 26LS32 chips. So I can't see why you'd have problems with them. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 24 16:36:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 14:36:57 -0800 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3DD95F.5010908@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk>, <4D3D64FD.13298.6DC0FC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D3DD95F.5010908@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D3D8E89.31077.1100DA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2011 at 19:56, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Does it cover the physical interface for the 94155? > (I ask because the 94151 is SASI, the '155 is ST506, and the 156 is > ESDI). Yes, it's called the "CDC506" interface. BTW, the manual also identifies the signals on the PCB interconnections. If Al also wants the manual, I imagine that he has specific scanning requirements (e.g. resolution, for example). If he'll tell me what to use, I'll be happy to scan the thing and forward it to him as well. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 24 21:41:34 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 03:41:34 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard Message-ID: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, It seems my 386 has gone off to join the Choir Invisible. I pulled the motherboard to clean off some battery residue and other gunk, and replace the RTC chip socket -- now it's completely dead. I'm getting "D-SUB: NO INPUT" on the monitor, no beeps or noise from the board, no signs of life whatsoever. The HDD spins up, and the lights blink, but the brain isn't doing squat. I did find a broken 14.31818MHz xtal which I've replaced, but still nothing. I have a sneaking suspicion the through-plating on the RTC socket might have gone iffy (I'll be breaking the plastic alignment bands on the socket and soldering the top-side tomorrow) but on the off-chance this fails to resurrect the board.. Does anyone have a 386 or 486 AT-form-factor PC motherboard kicking around? The board I had was one of these: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/I/INFORMTECH-INTERNATIONAL-INC-486-IT-AM33-40-DLC.html Basically: - Baby-AT -- fits in a mini-tower case, AT power supply - AMD 386DX-40 CPU - Socket for 387 or Weitek math coprocessor - 8 sockets for 30pin SIMMs -- max 32MB, but I've been running this one on 8MB. I've got a box of 72pin SIMMs too. - I/O on expansion cards, or at least some way of disabling the on-motherboard IDE controller. This thing needs to drive a Seagate ST21R RLL controller and a WD WD1003-WA2 (not at the same time, of course!) - A couple of 16-bit ISA slots (this board has 5, I need at least two) I'm wishing I hadn't thrown out my old Pentium-P100 board... that would have been just about perfect for this :( Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 25 10:25:43 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:25:43 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D3EF987.3050602@philpem.me.uk> On 25/01/11 03:41, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > It seems my 386 has gone off to join the Choir Invisible. [...] > I'm wishing I hadn't thrown out my old Pentium-P100 board... that would > have been just about perfect for this :( Hi guys, Just found an old AMD K6-II/500 machine in the scrap pile. Turns out it's got 192MB RAM, and an "all in one" motherboard with two ISA slots and a bunch of PCI slots. But the good part is that it works with both the Western Digital MFM and Seagate RLL controller cards! The WD1003-WA2 needs to be set up in the BIOS -- as in, you need to set the CHS values for the drive. Cycle power and it boots (if you've got the cables wired correctly, that is!). The card appears to have no BIOS of its own, so it has none of the auto-detection or other toys (e.g. low-level formatter) that the Seagate has. For the Seagate ST22R, you set the BIOS to "no MASTER/SLAVE HDD" on either the primary or secondary channel (depending on how the controller is jumpered) and let the controller's BIOS do the hard work. Even simpler... It looks like it'll probably only work with Seagate drives, though you'd pretty much expect that from a Seagate controller... Another morning successfully wasted :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From trebor77 at execpc.com Tue Jan 25 13:11:58 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:11:58 -0600 Subject: Looking for Schematics for an IMS SIO-2 Card Message-ID: <4D3F207E.8080301@execpc.com> I am Looking for Schematics for an IMS SIO-2 Card. I have been working on getting my N* Horizon Running. I added the PROM Option to my N* CPB-A2 but am having trouble with the Monitor Prom. I can't get it to accept Keyboard Input. I have a BYT-8 which I am now using to TEST with in order to bypass any Problems with the Built in Serial Logic on the N* Motherboard. I have the Manuals for the SIO but they don't have the Circuit Diagrams which I want to look at to see the Connections from the Edge Connector to the 8251. I am hoping someone may know where I might obtain them. TIA Bob in Wisconsin From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 25 12:56:54 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:56:54 -0500 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual References: Message-ID: ---------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 11:39:41 -0800 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4D3D64FD.13298.6DC0FC at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 24 Jan 2011 at 10:09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I have a Wren II manual, but not sure about the interface. I'll check > later today. I'll be darned--I found it. 77738035, Rev. H, April 1986. "This OEM Manual 77738035 provides the basic information and instructions for installing and operating Control Data WREN II Disk Drives; Models 94151, 94155 and 94156. It also provides information to aid in servicing those parts of the drive external to the sealed enclosure." Do you want me to scan and forward the whole thing to you? It's not terribly long, only about 40 pages. Or was there something specific that you were interested in? --Chuck -------------------Reply: I've got the Product Specification Manual (77715909-C, May/85, 61pp) for that CDC506 (ST506) 94155 series (and an opened drive as a piece of "art" beside my desk), but those are FH drives so I don't know how relevant it'd be. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 25 13:25:08 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:25:08 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: From: Eric Smith Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:03 PM > William Donzelli wrote: >> The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it >> seems there is no precise point when computing history began. > Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) OK, I give up. What happened on the Ides of January in the year 764 AUC?[1] [1] QVOD OCCIDIT IDVM IANVARII ANNO DCCLXIV AVC? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ <=== New site now live!!!! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 25 13:23:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:23:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 25, 11 03:41:34 am Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > It seems my 386 has gone off to join the Choir Invisible. I pulled the > motherboard to clean off some battery residue and other gunk, and > replace the RTC chip socket -- now it's completely dead. I'm getting > "D-SUB: NO INPUT" on the monitor, no beeps or noise from the board, no > signs of life whatsoever. The HDD spins up, and the lights blink, but > the brain isn't doing squat. Hae you looked for activity on the bus lines, processor pins, SIMM sockets, etc? It may be soemthing obvious. > > I did find a broken 14.31818MHz xtal which I've replaced, but still nothing. I susepct that this is the crystal for the OSC pin on the ISA bus and nothing more. It's used as a colour subcarrier master clock by CGA cards, as master clock for soem other boards that can use an odd frequency like that and very little else. > > I have a sneaking suspicion the through-plating on the RTC socket might > have gone iffy (I'll be breaking the plastic alignment bands on the > socket and soldering the top-side tomorrow) but on the off-chance this I asusme ther are internal signal layers too, so resoldering both surfaces may not be enough. > fails to resurrect the board.. Does anyone have a 386 or 486 > AT-form-factor PC motherboard kicking around? A rater OT question ; Can uou buy new, at any price, a PC motherboard tht will take ISA cards? Ive got a lot of number of special-purpose ISA cards I have, and seen even more, but I guess if you want to use things like that you have to keep an old machine running. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jan 25 13:27:57 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:27:57 +0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Folks, Picked up one of these wee beasts today at long last, Z80 CP/M and CP/N machine from ~1981, complete with not-oft-spotted hi-res colour PAL boards and incomplete as it's missing its floppy drive cable but I can probably thieve one from the BBC Micro-style Cumana dual drives that I have in abundance. The case, PSU and mains socket tell me it's been stored somewhere damp for a long time though I know for the last 10 or 11 months it's been on a shelf in an electrical retailer warehouse so clean and dry. Capacitors in the PSU notwithstanding, what else should I check before applying 240V? Can the PSU be powered up slowly with a variac? I don't know if it's a switcher or not but it's big enough not to be! Initial dismantling hasn't happened yet... Pic: http://f0p.co.uk/IMG_0571.JPG (1024x768 jpeg, 204k) Thanks! Adrian/Witchy Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 25 13:27:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:27:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3EF987.3050602@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 25, 11 04:25:43 pm Message-ID: > The WD1003-WA2 needs to be set up in the BIOS -- as in, you need to set > the CHS values for the drive. Cycle power and it boots (if you've got > the cables wired correctly, that is!). The card appears to have no BIOS > of its own, so it has none of the auto-detection or other toys (e.g. > low-level formatter) that the Seagate has. Unlike the PC/XT, the original PC/AT (IBM 5170) motherboard BIOS included the hard disk driver routines to talk to an WD controller (or an IDE drive, actually, sicne they look the same in software). Many of the PC/AT disk controllers did not have BIOS ROMs on them as a result. It's a pity in some ways. Putting the firmware to drive an interface on the the same board as the interface would seem to be a lot more versatile. -tony From alexeyt at freeshell.org Tue Jan 25 13:32:43 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:32:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Jan 2011, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Eric Smith > Sent: Sunday, January 23, 2011 10:03 PM > >> William Donzelli wrote: >>> The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it >>> seems there is no precise point when computing history began. > >> Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) > > OK, I give up. What happened on the Ides of January in the year 764 AUC?[1] > > [1] QVOD OCCIDIT IDVM IANVARII ANNO DCCLXIV AVC? I think that was a reference to CHM's "Revolution: The First 2000 Years of Computing" which opened on Jan 13 this year :-) Alexey From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jan 25 13:34:23 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:34:23 -0500 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual References: Message-ID: <4EE1E2810BE44F88BCAE6BC84FE660A5@vl420mt> ---------------Original Message: Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 15:52:20 +0000 From: Philip Pemberton Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual To: cctalk Message-ID: <4D3DA034.9000702 at philpem.me.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Hi guys, I'm planning on replacing the "recommended" 75157/75158 "dual differential driver/receiver" pair with a 26LS31/26LS32 quad diff RX/TX pair on the grounds that: * The 26LS parts are cheaper by about a factor of 3 * the 26LS parts seem to be easier to find (higher stock levels at Farnell and Digikey when I last checked). Anyone reckon I'm likely to have any problems with this substitution? ---------------Reply: I wouldn't think so since the WREN II manual in fact specifies 26LS31/26LS32s ;-) mike From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 25 13:35:45 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:35:45 -0500 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3F2611.7090209@neurotica.com> On 1/25/11 2:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It's a pity in some ways. Putting the firmware to drive an interface on > the the same board as the interface would seem to be a lot more versatile. Yay SBUS and PCI! (for what PCI was *supposed* to be, and what non-PC PCI cards are, anyway) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 25 13:53:10 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:53:10 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 24, at 1:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> 'computer' is pretty much anything that computes. The Antikythera >>> mechanism is referred to as a computer. >> >> Actually I've been arguing for years that he Ant. is not a computer. > > I wasn't aware anyone conisdered it to be a computer. The earliest > known > mechncail calculating device, sure. I'm not fully acquainted with the Antikythera device but, it was composed of >30 gears, with some sort of differential mechanism in there. It solves a couple of equations in parallel. I'm not completely clear on how complex those equations are, i.e. whether they are more than a single simple relationship each, but it wasn't a simple device, it was more than a rotary slide rule. For the sake of discussion, here are some incremental definitions of 'computer' (not to say that these are the only possible definitions): 1 - something that performs a computation/calculation 2 - something that executes a program automatically (solves an equation where the equation is more than one simple arithmetic operation) 3 - something that is programmable (can solve a wide variety of equations) 4 - a stored-program (/universal) machine By some standards, something that fits *only* in category 1 is a calculator, e.g. a slide rule is an analog calculator, an adding machine is a digital calculator. Parallellism adds another level of complexity in the characterisations. And if one has some appreciation for the history of mathematics and logic, one know it becomes another argument as to what constitutes a computation or calculation. The following categorisations could be made: 1: EDVAC, ENIAC, Harvard Mark 1, ABC, Antikythera, adding machine, slide rule 2: EDVAC, ENIAC, Harvard Mark 1, ABC, Antikythera 3: EDVAC, ENIAC, Harvard Mark 1 4: EDVAC It may be one could argue the Antikythera is in a grey area between 1 and 2. Depending on your definition, one can call the Antikythera Device a fixed-program analog computer. - One can pick or choose a definition and declare their device a computer to suit one's purposes if one is so inclined. Things become a little more controversial when one declares somebody else's device not a computer, unless you're being completely clear about what definition you're working with. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 25 13:56:33 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 11:56:33 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D3F2AF1.3090202@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. I wrote: > Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) Rich Alderson wrote: > OK, I give up. What happened on the Ides of January in the year 764 AUC?[1] > [1] QVOD OCCIDIT IDVM IANVARII ANNO DCCLXIV AVC? It was 2000 years prior to the opening of the Computer History Museum's "Revolution: The First 2000 Years of Computing" exhibit. Though I suppose I am probably off by ten days due to the change from the Julian calendar to the Gregorian calendar. Perhaps the correct date is January 23, 11 CE. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 25 14:14:13 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:14:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing epoch (Was: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110125114205.G32377@shell.lmi.net> > > The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it > > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. > Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) Any Unix type can tell you that history began at 00:00:00 January 1, 1970. But, they do allow negative timestamps, to mark any PRE-HISTORIC events. It will "go bad" January 19, 2038. Did John Titor find his magical 5100? Mac history began January 1, 1904. For a long time, I couldn't figure out what was special about that date, but finally realized that it was picked over 1900 in order to avoid the leap year exception. Therefore, it will "go bad" on March 1, 2100. MS-DOS FAT sets the beginning of history at January 1, 1980. No provision for negative times, but FAT12 and FAT16 (except >= NT) do permit negative file sizes. (Unfortunately, that is incompletely implemented - when I copied a -2GB file to an almost full hard drive, it did NOT increase the free space!) It will "go bad" in 2108, although some claim that it "went bad" on January 1, 1980. The classic COBOL 2 digit year started in 1900, and "went bad" in 2000. Shysters made money telling us that we had "trouble, right here in River city!", planes fell from the skies, all electronics exploded, and civilization collapsed. Don't forget that the Mayan calendar, which is said to be marginally more accurate than ours, will "go bad" on December 21, 2013. Does the Antikytherian device have a start or end point? > > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. So, like Morrow's standards ("Everyone can have a unique one of their own"), there are MANY precise points when computing history began. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 25 14:23:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:23:58 -0800 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D3F315E.3040700@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm planning on replacing the "recommended" 75157/75158 "dual > differential driver/receiver" pair with a 26LS31/26LS32 quad diff > RX/TX pair on the grounds that: > * The 26LS parts are cheaper by about a factor of 3 > * the 26LS parts seem to be easier to find (higher stock levels at > Farnell and Digikey when I last checked). > > Anyone reckon I'm likely to have any problems with this substitution? The spec only requires that the differential drivers and receivers meet EIA-422 specs (formerly RS-422). The Am26LS31 and Am26LS32 will work, as would the MC3486 and MC3487 or many other parts. EIA-485 transceivers (e.g., SN751765) can also be used, when configured as driver only or receiver only. From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 25 14:32:37 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:32:37 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> References: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D3F3365.9000608@snarc.net> > I'm not fully acquainted with the Antikythera device I highly recommend a book called "Decoding the Heavens". It came out a year or two ago. It covers the latest research on this device. The famous (but old) article "Gears of the Greeks" has been proven wrong by researchers using modern optic tools. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jan 25 14:33:17 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:33:17 -0800 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4D3F315E.3040700@brouhaha.com> References: <4D3DA034.9000702@philpem.me.uk> <4D3F315E.3040700@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D3F338D.1080302@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > EIA-485 transceivers (e.g., SN751765) can also be used, Supposed to have been SN75176. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 25 14:33:25 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 12:33:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> > > Perhaps you could enlighten us with the definitive definistion of > > "computer"? On Sun, 23 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's > subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very > least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? Surprisingly, NO. I was not implying that your definition was WRONG - your definition and mine are pretty close. I was merely pointing out that unless we define the term, then our definitions are no more defensible than, "a device that connects me to eBay and Facebook"! Are non-programmable "netbook"s available yet? The general public would still call those computers, even more so than a 360 ("It doesn't even have a screen or internet!") It would not surprise me if Steve Jobs were to release a machine that can not be programmed by anybody but HIS staff. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 25 14:35:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:35:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jan 25, 11 11:53:10 am Message-ID: > > > On 2011 Jan 24, at 1:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >>> 'computer' is pretty much anything that computes. The Antikythera > >>> mechanism is referred to as a computer. > >> > >> Actually I've been arguing for years that he Ant. is not a computer. > > > > I wasn't aware anyone conisdered it to be a computer. The earliest > > known > > mechncail calculating device, sure. > > I'm not fully acquainted with the Antikythera device but, it was > composed of >30 gears, with some sort of differential mechanism in > there. I am not very familiar with it either, I should probably find out more about it... > It solves a couple of equations in parallel. I'm not completely clear > on how complex those equations are, i.e. whether they are more than a > single simple relationship each, but it wasn't a simple device, it was > more than a rotary slide rule. Sure. But to me that's stil a calculator. It's a special-purpose machine, and I prefer to reserve the term 'computer' for more general devices. But I understand that others use the term somewhat differnently Actusally, like some others here, I find this 'Is it a computer or not' argument somewhat pointless. There are things that everybody would class as a computer (I don't think anyone here would claim the PDP8/e on my desk was anyhting other than a computer). Other things that nobody would claim to be a computer (the 746 telephone currently sitting next to it, for example). Othre things thate may or may not be computers. How about the HP9810 sitting alongside my desk? The makers called it a 'calcualtor', It its basic form it handles digits only. But it is user-programmable, and can be expanded to have a simple form of character I/O. Is that a computer? How abotu the servo system of an RK07 hard drive. That's a dedicated analogue computer by some definitions. When things are close to being computers, even if they are not computers by some definitions -- things like the ABC, ENIAC, the Ant, mechnaism, etc then I doubt anyone who has a serious interest in classic computing could be uninterested in them. Comptuers or not, they are certainly importat, interesting deviecs that are closely related to things that everybody calls computers. > > For the sake of discussion, here are some incremental definitions of > 'computer' (not to say that these are the only possible definitions): > 1 - something that performs a computation/calculation > 2 - something that executes a program automatically (solves an > equation > where the equation is more than one simple arithmetic operation) > 3 - something that is programmable (can solve a wide variety of > equations) > 4 - a stored-program (/universal) machine Waht do you call machins that contain a stored program, even a use-alterable stored progrma with loops, conditionals and subroutines (say) but which doesn't actually perform any numerical computations? I have deisgned a few such things over there years -- special-purpose programamble control systems that repond to inputs and generate outputs. Computers? Sequencers? Programamble controllers? Whatever you call them they must be related to at least part of a 'computer' -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 25 14:18:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:18:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 25, 11 07:27:57 pm Message-ID: > > Folks, > > Picked up one of these wee beasts today at long last, Z80 CP/M and CP/N > machine from ~1981, complete with not-oft-spotted hi-res colour PAL boards The H-res board is not that rare. The PAL enocder is, if you have that. Most of them just have the composite monochrome output (which is standard) and maybe the RGB encoder (recognisable by the 4 BNC sockets -- you cna internally configure it for sompostie sync o nthe 4th socket or sync-on-green). > and incomplete as it's missing its floppy drive cable but I can probably Is this the 5.25" floppy version or the 8"? I thought the former normally had the drives in the processor box, in which case the cabel is internal (but you say you've not dismantled it). The floppy controller is based on a 1771, and has a standard Shugart-ish interface for the drives. > thieve one from the BBC Micro-style Cumana dual drives that I have in > abundance. Alternatively, a bit of ribbon cable, some IDC connectors and a bench vice :-) > > The case, PSU and mains socket tell me it's been stored somewhere damp for a > long time though I know for the last 10 or 11 months it's been on a shelf in > an electrical retailer warehouse so clean and dry. > > Capacitors in the PSU notwithstanding, what else should I check before > applying 240V? Can the PSU be powered up slowly with a variac? I don't know > if it's a switcher or not but it's big enough not to be! Initial dismantling > hasn't happened yet... You get inside from the top (the top plate of the cabinet is held on by screws at the abck. The PCBs stad vertiallyt in card guides and are interconnected by a 50 way ribbon cable along the top. There is no PCB backplane/motehrboard. Other cables plug into these boards too, going to the flppy drives and the rear panel connectotrs. The text video board connects to the CPU board by a special cable (soldered to the video board) The PSU output to all the cards is carried by a tiny 10 way ribbon cable and connecotr that plugs into the CPU board. Power between the PCBs is carried along the bus ribbon cable. I don't like it! IIRC there are separate output cables from the PSU to the disk drives. Iwould start by making a diagram of waht goes where, then disconnecting the ribbon cables and taking out all the PCBs (there are a few cables, particularly coaxial video ones that you can only disconnect when the PCB is out, so be careful. It's been a logn time since I've been insde the PSU of one of these machines, but I seem to rememebr a metal chssis over it carrying the regualtors, etc. It comes out fairly easilu revealing the mains transformer. It's a linear PSU (or at least that origianl was, I guess it could ahve been modified over the years). The original PSU does not need a dummy load. Waht I would do, due to the possible dampness problems, is to check the earth continuity and the insulation resistance (the latter with a megger, preferably 1000V) Assuming it all checks out, apply mains and check the PSU output voltages. Then set up the minimal system (CPU + text video boards, linked to a composite monitor ans see if you can ge the COS prompt (COS == Cassette Operating System, of course). Then assemble the complte machine nnd try to boot it I don't see why the PSU capacitors should be especially suspect. But then I don't subscribe to this witch-hunt against electrolyticss -tony From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 25 14:41:15 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:41:15 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D3F356B.8070702@snarc.net> > Are non-programmable "netbook"s available yet? The general public would still call those computers, even more so than a 360 ("It doesn't even have a screen or internet!") > > It would not surprise me if Steve Jobs were to release a machine that can not be programmed by anybody but HIS staff. I knew someone would eventually bring up the "appliance" variable. Sure there are always appliance-like devices that * users * can't program, but there is still * someone * would programs these, otherwise they would be silicon doorstops. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 14:54:10 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:54:10 -0500 Subject: Computing epoch (Was: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110125114205.G32377@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> <20110125114205.G32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 3:14 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> > The one thing that strikes me after reading this thread is that it >> > seems there is no precise point when computing history began. >> Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE ?:-) > > Any Unix type can tell you that history began at 00:00:00 January 1, > 1970. ? But, they do allow negative timestamps... > > Mac history began January 1, 1904... to avoid the leap year exception. VMS counts 100ns quanta (each call to get the system time is guaranteed to be unique) since November 17, 1858, coinciding with the beginning of the Modified Julian Day epoch (handy for working with some astronomical data sets). It's internally represented as a 64-bit signed number - absolute times are positive, delta times (used with batch jobs, as in "run four hours from now") are represented as negative numbers, so timestamps can't be negative, but time values _can_ (operator overloading, of a sort). VMS time fails on 31-JUL-31086, but there are comments in the source that the date formatting routines will fail on 1-Jan-10000 (the code assumes that years are always represented in four digits). So VMS is pretty robust at handling time, but has a known Y10K problem (and less than 7989 years left to fix it!) -ethan From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 25 14:58:09 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:58:09 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3F3961.9030500@snarc.net> >> For the sake of discussion, here are some incremental definitions of >> 'computer' (not to say that these are the only possible definitions): >> 1 - something that performs a computation/calculation >> 2 - something that executes a program automatically (solves an >> equation >> where the equation is more than one simple arithmetic operation) >> 3 - something that is programmable (can solve a wide variety of >> equations) >> 4 - a stored-program (/universal) machine > Waht do you call machins that contain a stored program, even a use-alterable stored progrma with loops, conditionals and subroutines (say) but which doesn't actually perform any numerical computations? I have deisgned a few such things over there years -- special-purpose programamble control systems that repond to inputs and generate outputs. Computers? Sequencers? Programamble controllers? Whatever you call them they must be related to at least part of a 'computer' Wow .... Tony and I agree!!! It's a miracle. It all goes back to my simplest possible definition .... computer = automated calculating device that runs a program. :) Everything else (analog/digital; mechanical/electronic; binary/decimal; special-purpose/general-purpose; factory-tuned/user-programmable) -- they're all just subsets. From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jan 25 15:08:38 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:08:38 -0800 Subject: PDP is not a computer (was ENIAC) In-Reply-To: References: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert"at Jan 25, 11 11:53:10 am Message-ID: Tony wrote: >(I don't think anyone here would claim the PDP8/e on my > desk was anyhting other than a computer). With tongue in cheek, I suggest that the PDP8/e is *not* a computer. PDP stood for "Programmed Data Processor". DEC specifically did not want to market their machines as computers, because they feared that the bean counters that process purchasing requests for potential customers for this machine might see the word "computer" and freak out envisioning huge glass-walled rooms with gigantic mainframes and huge air conditioning systems. The term "Programmed Data Processor" was an attempt to avoid the stigma (for lack of a better word) that executive types of the day had attached to the term computer. Before flaming, please remember...tongue is firmly pressing on cheek. Rick Bensene From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 25 15:11:00 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:11:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110125130724.I32377@shell.lmi.net> > >> Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) > I think that was a reference to CHM's "Revolution: The First 2000 Years of > Computing" which opened on Jan 13 this year :-) > > OK, I give up. What happened on the Ides of January in the year 764 AUC?[1] Was that the date when they realized that persobnal computers would be a very bad idea, and threw the Antikytheran device into the sea to get rid of it? :-) From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 25 15:14:26 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:14:26 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <20110123142313.K47428@shell.lmi.net> <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net> <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 12:33 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: ENIAC .... > > It would not surprise me if Steve Jobs were to release a machine that > can > not be programmed by anybody but HIS staff. > He did: the iPhone and iPad. IMHO, from Jobs' perspective, the people who write apps *do* work for him.... -- Ian (who owns neither device) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 15:14:40 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:14:40 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net>, <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2011 at 12:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sun, 23 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's > > subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very > > least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? > > Surprisingly, NO. A Jacquard loom is programmable and even runs loops... *I* wouldn't call it a computer. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Jan 24 19:19:52 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2011 20:19:52 -0500 Subject: SCSI hard drives of large form factors Message-ID: >Here's something I was thinking about the other day. I *know* for a fact that SCSI interface hard drives existed with 8" platters. I've never seen one, however. Does anyone know of any specific model numbers, or have any product information or pictures of such devices? I just looked in my collection of 8" drives. I have two 8" Imprimis/CDC 97201-12G PA8P1A ST81236N Sabre drives with the original style SCSI connectors on the back. There are manuals for the drive on Bitsavers at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/sabre/83325700N_PA8xx_736-1230mb_Parts_Aug90.pdf, and http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/discs/sabre/83325720F_PA8xx_736-1230mb_Maint_Feb90.pdf. The manuals say that the drives are 1.2G, 512 byte/sector drives with an HP SCSI differential interface. I can post pictures if you are interested. -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 15:19:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:19:37 -0800 Subject: CDC/MPI Wren II HH (94205-51) drive manual In-Reply-To: <4EE1E2810BE44F88BCAE6BC84FE660A5@vl420mt> References: , <4EE1E2810BE44F88BCAE6BC84FE660A5@vl420mt> Message-ID: <4D3ECDE9.2895.1066641@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2011 at 14:34, MikeS wrote: > I wouldn't think so since the WREN II manual in fact specifies > 26LS31/26LS32s > ;-) Won't just about any RS-422 receiver work? ISTR that the Segate ST506 spec said as much. --Chuck From pinball at telus.net Tue Jan 25 09:51:38 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 07:51:38 -0800 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > It seems my 386 has gone off to join the Choir Invisible. I pulled the > motherboard to clean off some battery residue and other gunk, and > replace the RTC chip socket -- now it's completely dead. I'm getting > "D-SUB: NO INPUT" on the monitor, no beeps or noise from the board, no > signs of life whatsoever. The HDD spins up, and the lights blink, but > the brain isn't doing squat. > ... > > The board I had was one of these: > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/I/INFORMTECH-INTERNATIONAL-INC-486-IT-AM33-40-DLC.html > > ... > Thanks, You might want to try replacing the Dallas Battery backed up RAM as well, they only last about ten years - perhaps the battery has shorted and this is killing the data bus? John :-#)# From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 15:23:56 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:23:56 -0500 Subject: Computing epoch (Was: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> <20110125114205.G32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > VMS time fails on 31-JUL-31086, but there are comments in the source > that the date formatting routines will fail on 1-Jan-10000 (the code > assumes that years are always represented in four digits). VMS - the cockroach of the operating system world. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 15:41:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 13:41:05 -0800 Subject: PDP is not a computer (was ENIAC) In-Reply-To: References: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca>, , Message-ID: <4D3ED2F1.9287.11A0AB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2011 at 13:08, Rick Bensene wrote: > Before flaming, please remember...tongue is firmly pressing on cheek. Neither was the IBM 704 called a "computer" in IBM's literature of the time. "Calculator" yes, and "Data Processing Machine", but not "computer". --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 25 15:44:53 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:44:53 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> <4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> Message-ID: <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk> On 25/01/11 15:51, John Robertson wrote: > You might want to try replacing the Dallas Battery backed up RAM as > well, they only last about ten years - perhaps the battery has shorted > and this is killing the data bus? Tried with the DS1687 pulled, no joy. Date on the chip is only 2002, anyway. 5V is present on the BIOS ROM, haven't checked anywhere else. Given the amount of Green Goo around the ni-cad battery, I'm thinking one of the sockets has succumbed, and the dunk-and-scrub probably finished it off. Either that or the contact cleaner I sprayed in the ISA slots is shorting the thing out... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 15:48:30 2011 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:48:30 +0000 Subject: PDP is not a computer (was ENIAC) In-Reply-To: References: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: The term computer predates all this digital stuff it is a human who calculates http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_computer So the reasons you are all mentioning for not using the term should include the common use at the time Dave Caroline On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Tony wrote: > >>(I don't think anyone here would claim the PDP8/e on my >> desk was anyhting other than a computer). > > With tongue in cheek, I suggest that the PDP8/e is *not* a computer. > > PDP stood for "Programmed Data Processor". ?DEC specifically did not > want to market their machines as computers, because they feared that the > bean counters that process purchasing requests for potential customers > for this machine might see the word "computer" and freak out envisioning > huge glass-walled rooms with gigantic mainframes and huge air > conditioning systems. ?The term "Programmed Data Processor" was an > attempt to avoid the stigma (for lack of a better word) that executive > types of the day had attached to the term computer. > > Before flaming, please remember...tongue is firmly pressing on cheek. > > Rick Bensene > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 25 15:50:19 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:50:19 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D3F459B.5000005@philpem.me.uk> On 25/01/11 19:23, Tony Duell wrote: > Hae you looked for activity on the bus lines, processor pins, SIMM > sockets, etc? It may be soemthing obvious. Not yet. If I get sufficiently bored in the not too distant future, I'll probably build up an ISA bodge-board for the HP16500B and see what's going on. > I susepct that this is the crystal for the OSC pin on the ISA bus and > nothing more. It's used as a colour subcarrier master clock by CGA cards, > as master clock for soem other boards that can use an odd frequency > like that and very little else. Fair enough. >> I have a sneaking suspicion the through-plating on the RTC socket might >> have gone iffy (I'll be breaking the plastic alignment bands on the >> socket and soldering the top-side tomorrow) but on the off-chance this > > I asusme ther are internal signal layers too, so resoldering both > surfaces may not be enough. I have a sneaking suspicion it's a 4-layer board... > A rater OT question ; Can uou buy new, at any price, a PC motherboard tht > will take ISA cards? Ive got a lot of number of special-purpose ISA cards I > have, and seen even more, but I guess if you want to use things like that > you have to keep an old machine running. You can get PICMG-compliant single-board computers which will take an ISA riser card. I've got one kicking around somewhere... if memory serves it's an AAEON SBC-675 Socket370 Celeron board. Nice little thing, essentially a full computer on a full-length board. About the same size as a Western Digital WD1003 Winchester controller card actually. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 25 15:53:34 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:53:34 +0000 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net>, <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D3F465E.2050101@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/01/2011 21:14, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 25 Jan 2011 at 12:33, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Sun, 23 Jan 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's >>> subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the very >>> least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? >> Surprisingly, NO. > > A Jacquard loom is programmable and even runs loops... > > *I* wouldn't call it a computer. Ah, but he said "at least" -- so he means it's necessary, he didn't say sufficient :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 15:57:08 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:57:08 -0200 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard References: <4D3F459B.5000005@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6F38A280D89545D18835A9AC4C26B4E3@portajara> >> A rater OT question ; Can uou buy new, at any price, a PC motherboard tht >> will take ISA cards? Ive got a lot of number of special-purpose ISA cards >> I >> have, and seen even more, but I guess if you want to use things like that >> you have to keep an old machine running. NEW I'm not sure. But certainly an used Pentium-4 board can be found. I had a Asus one, and there were others 2-3 years ago From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 25 16:03:02 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 17:03:02 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3F465E.2050101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, <4D3CAD16.1030109@snarc.net>, <20110125122320.A32377@shell.lmi.net> <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> <4D3F465E.2050101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D3F4896.4020504@snarc.net> >>>> Contrary to what you're implying, I really do 100% agree that it's >>>> subjective. BUT .... wouldn't everyone also agree that, at the >>>> very least, to be a "computer" a machine must be programmable? >>> Surprisingly, NO. >> >> A Jacquard loom is programmable and even runs loops... >> >> *I* wouldn't call it a computer. > > Ah, but he said "at least" -- so he means it's necessary, he didn't > say sufficient :-) Thank you Pete. :) I also said an automated programmable * calculating * device. A loom doesn't calculate. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 16:11:11 2011 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:11:11 +0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 25 January 2011 20:18, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Folks, >> >> Picked up one of these wee beasts today at long last, Z80 CP/M and CP/N >> machine from ~1981, complete with not-oft-spotted hi-res colour PAL boards > > The H-res board is not that rare. The PAL enocder is, if you have that. Yup, the machine has a TV-out as well as the standard monitor. The PAL board is marked as such and has a colour modulator on it. > Is this the 5.25" floppy version or the 8"? I thought the former normally 5.25". I've only ever heard talk of the 8" > had the drives in the processor box, in which case the cabel is internal > (but you say you've not dismantled it). The floppy controller is based on > a 1771, and has a standard Shugart-ish interface for the drives. Yup, hence me raiding my store of Cumanas :) > backplane/motehrboard. Other cables plug into these boards too, going to > the flppy drives and the rear panel connectotrs. ?The text video board > connects to the CPU board by a special cable (soldered to the video board) I remembered the internal layout from school. This machine has a perspex top cover so it's been dismantled and visually checked for damaged components, looks ok. > The PSU output to all the cards is carried by a tiny 10 way ribbon cable > and connecotr that plugs into the CPU board. Power between the PCBs is > carried along the bus ribbon cable. I don't like it! I guessed that, there's 2 ribbon cables that come out of the PSU as well as the separate feed for the floppy drives. > Waht I would do, due to the possible dampness problems, is to check the > earth continuity and the insulation resistance (the latter with a megger, > preferably 1000V) Assuming it all checks out, apply mains and check the > PSU output voltages. Then set up the minimal system (CPU + text video > boards, linked to a composite monitor ans see if you can ge the COS > prompt (COS == Cassette Operating System, of course). Then assemble the > complte machine nnd try to boot it I should be able to get a Megger at work. The reason I mention the caps is because the last 3 or 4 machines I've had in have all blown the mains filters. Watch this space! Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 25 16:11:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 14:11:58 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3F465E.2050101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net>, <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D3F465E.2050101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D3EDA2E.31930.13651F4@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Jan 2011 at 21:53, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Ah, but he said "at least" -- so he means it's necessary, he didn't > say sufficient :-) Yes, but all the wiggle room is in that word, isn't it? "When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less." Otherwise known as a sucker's game. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 25 17:33:46 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 18:33:46 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3F5DDA.8080909@snarc.net> > >>> wasn't a universal machine >> >> Please elaborate. > > In the Universal Turing Machine sense, from computing theory. A UTM > can compute a certain class of functions. Any machine with a certain > set of capabilities can be shown to be a UTM equivalent .... I think > it would be difficult to construe the ENIAC into a UTM equivalent. Oh. That's what I thought you meant, but I figured maybe you actually meant something else, because ENIAC * was * Turing-complete. I wouldn't normally use Wikipedia as a credible source, but since you already did .... says here in the first paragraph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC. The chart (scroll down the Wiki page) shows how, except for the limited Mark 1, * all * general-purpose programmable computers are Turing-complete. (not counting theoretical impossibilities like infinite memory.) From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 25 18:16:22 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 16:16:22 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110125130724.I32377@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> <20110125130724.I32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:11 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: ENIAC .... > > > >> Huh? I thought it began on January 13, 11 CE :-) > > I think that was a reference to CHM's "Revolution: The First 2000 > Years of > > Computing" which opened on Jan 13 this year :-) > > > OK, I give up. What happened on the Ides of January in the year > 764 AUC?[1] > > Was that the date when they realized that persobnal computers would be > a very bad idea, and threw the Antikytheran device into the sea to get > rid of it? :-) > You mean Ken Olsen had precedent?!? From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 25 18:31:26 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 19:31:26 -0500 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> <4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: WTD: 386 motherboard > On 25/01/11 15:51, John Robertson wrote: >> You might want to try replacing the Dallas Battery backed up RAM as >> well, they only last about ten years - perhaps the battery has shorted >> and this is killing the data bus? > > Tried with the DS1687 pulled, no joy. Date on the chip is only 2002, > anyway. > > 5V is present on the BIOS ROM, haven't checked anywhere else. > > Given the amount of Green Goo around the ni-cad battery, I'm thinking one > of the sockets has succumbed, and the dunk-and-scrub probably finished it > off. Either that or the contact cleaner I sprayed in the ISA slots is > shorting the thing out... > > Have you tried using one of those $5 ISA/PCI POST cards from Ebay? I was working on a Pentium motherboard a few days ago that wouldn't even beep. After checking the onboard fuse I plugged in the post card into a PCI slot and all the voltages were there (except for 3.xV which is normal) but absolutely no activity on the LED's. So I unplugged the ROM chip and plugged it back in, the unit then fired up. Most battery leaks tend to take out the keyboard lines which are in the general area. Never had an issue with washing a motherboard with soap and water and letting it dry in the basement for a day or two. If something major is shorting the AT supply should not run. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 25 19:05:19 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 01:05:19 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> <4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk> <80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> On 26/01/11 00:31, Teo Zenios wrote: > Have you tried using one of those $5 ISA/PCI POST cards from Ebay? I'm aware of them, but I did NOT know they were that cheap... *searches* OK, so for $20 I've just netted myself a set of three -- a PCIe/MiniPCIe one which should work nicely on the laptops and the spiffy new(ish) desktop, a PCI/USB/parallel one for the other laptops, and an ISA/PCI one for the 386. (Well for $6 a piece, it's hardly worth *not* having the full set...) > I was > working on a Pentium motherboard a few days ago that wouldn't even beep. ... which is pretty much what the 386 is doing (or not doing). > After checking the onboard fuse I plugged in the post card into a PCI > slot and all the voltages were there (except for 3.xV which is normal) Why would it be normal for 3.3V to be missing? Was this an old board which only supported 5V PCI? > Most battery leaks tend to take out the keyboard lines which are in the > general area. Never had an issue with washing a motherboard with soap > and water and letting it dry in the basement for a day or two. If > something major is shorting the AT supply should not run. I can't see any damage to the keyboard lines... I did resolder a resistor in the battery-charge chain, and scratch some corrosion off the battery feed track. The keyboard connector got off pretty lightly it seems. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 25 19:24:08 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 20:24:08 -0500 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk><4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk><80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 8:05 PM Subject: Re: WTD: 386 motherboard > On 26/01/11 00:31, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Have you tried using one of those $5 ISA/PCI POST cards from Ebay? > > I'm aware of them, but I did NOT know they were that cheap... > > *searches* > >> After checking the onboard fuse I plugged in the post card into a PCI >> slot and all the voltages were there (except for 3.xV which is normal) > > Why would it be normal for 3.3V to be missing? Was this an old board which > only supported 5V PCI? > > > I can't see any damage to the keyboard lines... I did resolder a resistor > in the battery-charge chain, and scratch some corrosion off the battery > feed track. The keyboard connector got off pretty lightly it seems. > > -- > Phil. Sometimes the lines look intact but they are broken, I use a multimeter to check point to point on any lines in the area of the leak, fixed a nice IBM 486slc2/66 board that way (broken keyboard line). Yea, POST cards are super cheap these days and help diagnose issues, plus the manuals tend to have all the beep codes for most BIOS makers. I have a parallel port one for older laptops and the ISA/PCI one. The original PCI slots are 5V only, forget when they went to 3.3VDC. Why did you solder a resister in the battery charge chain, that would drop voltage? I use a diode when switching to coin cell battery to keep the unit from trying to charge a battery that doesn't like that sort of thing. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 25 19:58:02 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 17:58:02 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3F5DDA.8080909@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> <4D3F5DDA.8080909@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 25, at 3:33 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> >>>> wasn't a universal machine >>> >>> Please elaborate. >> >> In the Universal Turing Machine sense, from computing theory. A UTM >> can compute a certain class of functions. Any machine with a certain >> set of capabilities can be shown to be a UTM equivalent .... I think >> it would be difficult to construe the ENIAC into a UTM equivalent. > > Oh. That's what I thought you meant, but I figured maybe you actually > meant something else, because ENIAC * was * Turing-complete. > > I wouldn't normally use Wikipedia as a credible source, but since you > already did .... says here in the first paragraph: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ENIAC. > The chart (scroll down the Wiki page) shows how, except for the > limited Mark 1, * all * general-purpose programmable computers are > Turing-complete. (not counting theoretical impossibilities like > infinite memory.) Yes, one does has to be careful about Wikipedia. To be clear, I wasn't using wikipedia as a proof or evidence source. I had never seen ENIAC characterised as Turing-complete, I thought there was some limitation to it's programmibility and addressability that would inhibit it, there are certain requirements for a machine to be Turing-complete. Although as I alluded with the Minsky ref, I'm not entirely surprised that it _might_ be possible. I will nonetheless wait for the proof or explanation to give it credence, as well as see how tortured the characterisation is (what it takes to accomplish it). I do have to wonder if whoever made the characterisation is confusing Turing-complete with a notion of programmibility or 'general-purpose' (another ambiguous phrase). The ENIAC page links to the "Turing completeness" page. There, Conway's "The Game of Life" is stated to be Turing-complete. The point being, it is interesting to look at these things from a strict or theoretical point of view, and there is a wide range of things that can be characterised as Turing-complete. So not to take away from the Turing-complete matter (I introduced it), but let me put it another way: there is a very large distinction between the architecture and practical capabilities of the ENIAC (or an ENIAC-like machine) and the stored-program machines that came after. Or let me express it a little more practically: I can reasonably imagine writing an Algol compiler or a word processor to run on the EDVAC, even without knowing the instruction set of the EDVAC. Even the lack of character handling could be worked around without much difficulty. Doing so on the ENIAC is another matter, and I'm allowing for having a large number of accumulators (data memory), as one would in a Turing-completeness assessment. If it's Turing-complete, yes, one can do it, but how tortured is it? -- There are some curious things going on in the wikipedia "Turing completeness" article. Looking at the revision history, the article starts out with no ref to ENIAC, then this is added: "The first machine known to be Turing-complete was ENIAC" Later, to account for the paper on the earlier Z3 it becomes: "Previously, the first machine known to be Turing-complete was ENIAC" Somebody changes (reverts) that to: "Globally however, the first machine known to be Turing-complete continues to be ENIAC (1946)" Whatever that means. In Feb 2010 (and currently) it becomes: "but the first machine explicitly designed to be Turing complete and widely appreciated as being universal was the 1946 ENIAC. This machine was able to solve a wide range of effective problems in the 1940s, many related to atomic bomb design." That first bit is a rather strong statement of intent. Strikes me as a little bit of revisionist history. I'd be rather surprised if Mauchly and Eckert knew what Turing-complete meant when they designed the ENIAC. The second sentence is a nice promotional statement about the ENIAC, its presence in the Turing-completeness article is questionable. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 25 19:58:01 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 01:58:01 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk><4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk><80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D3F7FA9.6050505@philpem.me.uk> On 26/01/11 01:24, Teo Zenios wrote: > Why did you solder a resister in the battery charge chain, that would > drop voltage? It's there to charge the nicad battery, and was already part of the motherboard. I desoldered one leg (which had been eaten away) and replaced it with a new part. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From evan at snarc.net Tue Jan 25 20:09:35 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:09:35 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> <4D3F5DDA.8080909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D3F825F.6020709@snarc.net> > I'd be rather surprised if Mauchly and Eckert knew what > Turing-complete meant when they designed the ENIAC. I don't have any knowledge of who wrote what and when, re: Wikipedia. As for "did M&E know about Turing" .... good question! The answer is "almost certainly yes" because von Neumann knew Turing. As for * when * von Neumann taught M&E about Turing -- if they didn't already know -- that's something I will try to find out. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jan 26 00:23:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 22:23:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D1611.9040801@brouhaha.com> <20110125130724.I32377@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110125222250.E51047@shell.lmi.net> > > > > OK, I give up. What happened on the Ides of January in the year > > 764 AUC?[1] > > > > Was that the date when they realized that persobnal computers would be > > a very bad idea, and threw the Antikytheran device into the sea to get > > rid of it? :-) > > You mean Ken Olsen had precedent?!? You certainly didn't think that he was FIRST, did you? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Jan 25 20:23:47 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 21:23:47 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration Message-ID: I am reassembling a PDP-11/44 from parts for the Rhode Island Computer Museum. I would like to try an RL01 or RL02 drive on the system, but we don't have another RL02 controller. Do any of you have a M7762 RL11 disk controller board that you could donate or sell inexpensively for this project? The RA81s won't spin up, so I suspect that I need to replace the starting capacitors. Do any of you know where to get replacement starting capacitors for the RA80 or RA81 drives? Details on the project are here: https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144 -- Michael Thompson From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 26 02:18:36 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 00:18:36 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3F825F.6020709@snarc.net> References: <4D3B733D.2000206@snarc.net> <4D3C3D2F.8000202@snarc.net> <4D3CDAEF.10209@snarc.net> <5c4d93016f97c076bda052bc53fa9970@cs.ubc.ca> <4D3D0A03.2050408@snarc.net> <4D3F5DDA.8080909@snarc.net> <4D3F825F.6020709@snarc.net> Message-ID: <961f42a661d45c9815315cd3085aee40@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 25, at 6:09 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> I'd be rather surprised if Mauchly and Eckert knew what >> Turing-complete meant when they designed the ENIAC. > > I don't have any knowledge of who wrote what and when, re: Wikipedia. > > As for "did M&E know about Turing" .... good question! The answer is > "almost certainly yes" because von Neumann knew Turing. > As for * when * von Neumann taught M&E about Turing -- if they didn't > already know -- that's something I will try to find out. We're talking about the ENIAC, not the EDVAC. TMU, ENIAC was already under design and construction when von Neumann became aware of it. The question is not did they know about Turing, rather did they know about Turing-completeness. Turing's paper "On Computable Numbers" (it's on the web) was highly abstract and in the realm of theory and the philosophy of logic at the time, a long ways from people building calculating machines. The paper was directed at other issues (note title) not characterising machine architectures. I don't know the exact history of the theoretical developments, but I suspect the notion of Turing-completeness came later, a derivation from the paper. I really don't think people were going around trying to characterise their implementations as Turing-complete at the time of the ENIAC. I really don't see E & M thinking "We must ensure the ENIAC has the functionality to make it Turing-complete." Frankly, it sounds ludicrous. One way or the other if people are going to make such claims as in w'pedia it's for them to show them, not others to disprove them. I did a search for "ENIAC Turing complete". All I've seen so far is limpid statements of claim, such as: "ENIAC also differed from earlier calculating devices in that it was designed and used to be Turing-complete - that is, a truly universal computing device" Which just from the phrasing suggests the person writing it doesn't know what they are talking about. It's been sometime since I went looking for stuff on the 'first computer'/ENIAC/ABC topic on the web. Man, there is a lot of crap out there (and it's not limited to ENIAC supporters). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 26 03:02:26 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 01:02:26 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23efa429ddec2c3936648855107af4d3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 25, at 12:35 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Actusally, like some others here, I find this 'Is it a computer or not' > argument somewhat pointless. There are things that everybody would > class > Yes, which is why I suggested at the very beginning of the thread "characterise, don't declare". >> For the sake of discussion, here are some incremental definitions of >> 'computer' (not to say that these are the only possible definitions): >> 1 - something that performs a computation/calculation >> 2 - something that executes a program automatically (solves an >> equation >> where the equation is more than one simple arithmetic >> operation) >> 3 - something that is programmable (can solve a wide variety of >> equations) >> 4 - a stored-program (/universal) machine > > Waht do you call machins that contain a stored program, even a > use-alterable stored progrma with loops, conditionals and subroutines > (say) but which doesn't actually perform any numerical computations? I > have deisgned a few such things over there years -- special-purpose > programamble control systems that repond to inputs and generate > outputs. > Computers? Sequencers? Programamble controllers? Whatever you call them > they must be related to at least part of a 'computer' > You can substitute "equation" with "a problem in symbolic logic". If I understand correctly what you describe I would say it falls in category 2. I just used equation and arithmetic as this stuff is often discussed in relation to the historic developments. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 03:54:56 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 07:54:56 -0200 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk><4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk><80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> <4D3F7FA9.6050505@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <6D04CD419BDF4F91883DC8B80951267D@portajara> > It's there to charge the nicad battery, and was already part of the > motherboard. I desoldered one leg (which had been eaten away) and replaced > it with a new part. And remember: Sometimes when the battery goes flat, the computer does not boot and looks dead!!! From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 07:46:06 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:46:06 +0000 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <6D04CD419BDF4F91883DC8B80951267D@portajara> References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk><4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk><80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> <4D3F7FA9.6050505@philpem.me.uk> <6D04CD419BDF4F91883DC8B80951267D@portajara> Message-ID: <4D40259E.8010203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> It's there to charge the nicad battery, and was already part of the >> motherboard. I desoldered one leg (which had been eaten away) and >> replaced it with a new part. > > And remember: Sometimes when the battery goes flat, the computer does > not boot and looks dead!!! But I have found that after removing the batery the machine will boot, though it will of course complain about the CMOS being corrupt. I seem to remember that the OP said he had de-soldered the batery. Cheers. Phill. From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 07:58:18 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 11:58:18 -0200 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk><4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk><80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> <4D3F7FA9.6050505@philpem.me.uk><6D04CD419BDF4F91883DC8B80951267D@portajara> <4D40259E.8010203@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <8CB7D169EBAC4FE5A6923E3BC38CF672@portajara> > Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> It's there to charge the nicad battery, and was already part of the >>> motherboard. I desoldered one leg (which had been eaten away) and >>> replaced it with a new part. >> And remember: Sometimes when the battery goes flat, the computer does >> not boot and looks dead!!! > But I have found that after removing the batery the machine will boot, > though it will of course complain about the CMOS being corrupt. I seem to > remember that the OP said he had de-soldered the batery. Phil, I've seen many machines that wouldn't boot WITHOUT a battery. SiS 530 (K6, Pentium 200/233MMX, etc) is one that comes to mind. If you have a dead battery OR no battery, zed is dead. From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jan 26 08:44:05 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:44:05 -0600 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D3E466E.50309@philpem.me.uk> <4D3EF18A.5010005@telus.net> <4D3F4455.5010402@philpem.me.uk> <80CEF2C96593462FB87A4D3A6C6B4486@dell8300> <4D3F734F.8020506@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <201101261450.p0QEoBwI004757@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:05 PM 1/25/2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >On 26/01/11 00:31, Teo Zenios wrote: >>Have you tried using one of those $5 ISA/PCI POST cards from Ebay? > >I'm aware of them, but I did NOT know they were that cheap... *searches* >OK, so for $20 I've just netted myself a set of three -- a PCIe/MiniPCIe one which should work nicely on the laptops and the spiffy new(ish) desktop, a PCI/USB/parallel one for the other laptops, and an ISA/PCI one for the 386. Hmm, I hadn't looked in a while. I have a PCI one I got somewhere. There's quite a variety on eBay at ridiculous prices. Which ones are the good ones? I'd rather pay $30 for a good one than 99 cents for bad one. Or for that matter, a well-documented one. See one card's eBay text below. - John This is the MINT condition PC Analyzer / debug / POST Codes tester for IBM & compatible PCs with ISA or PCI slot It is fit for desktop computer Four-bit code is displayed It can diagnose the troubles of not only the Main board, but also the card itself It can prevent the users misunderstood It is compatible with all sorts of the computers including a wide range of Intel flat, AMD flat, and so on The cause code is more accurate and reliable It cannot stop in the course of functioning The value of four-bit-code PC Analyzer's "initiative code" is specified and it is "0000" or "FFFF". Initiative code is clear at a glance Does no harm to the devise while you insert PC Analyzer in ISA slot wrongly or rightabout and make it functioned Fully compatible with any kind motherboards which has the PCI and ISA bus slot It is 100% NEW Package included 1 x PC POST diagnostic card (PCI & ISA card) 1 x English Manual From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 09:11:54 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 10:11:54 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > I am reassembling a PDP-11/44 from parts for the Rhode Island Computer... > > The RA81s won't spin up, so I suspect that I need to replace the > starting capacitors. I read through the blog - if the motors start spinning as you describe (I envision you mean for a few seconds; please correct me if this is wrong) _then_ the drive stops spinning, I doubt it's the capacitors. If the motors _don't_ start moving when you put the drive online, then that is one component to examine. RA81s were at one point, exceedingly susceptible to HDA failure. I don't recall the specific ECO levels, but some version after "E" used a different glue than its predecessors leading to particulate contamination leading to catastrophic failure. ISTR looking for "H2" or "K2" drives after that disaster. RA81 drives have a DB25 inside. You can plug a terminal in and run on-board diagnostics and monitor operations. You can run with the lid up or lid down (snaking a ribbon cable out of the drive). The molex connector next to the data connector is to power a small hand-held LED terminal (I saw one once, used with a high voltage chassis for particle physics, but the terminal was the same). Try plugging in a working VT220 and letting the drive tell you what it thinks is going on. You might find that it's starting to spin up then not liking what it sees and spinning down. Oh... just a detail - you mention locked heads - you _did_ pull the cord to retension the drive belt, right? (for safe transport, the RA81 has you locking the heads _and_ disengaging the motor from the HDA by removing belt tension). If you didn't do this step, what I think may happen is the onboard processor will start to spin the motor, sense no rotation from the HDA, then spin the motor down and emit a fault code. Maybe this is what you are seeing? > https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144 Reading through your blog, I don't think you will have success with booting 2.11BSD on your 11/44 with a TU81+ unless you have install media that knows about that tape controller. The 2.9BSD tapes I have require an "MS" device (older OSes might or might not require an "MT" device). Back in the day, there were several incompatible tape controller types, with different boot ROMs, and your install media had to match your controller and ROMs (or you had to toggle in the bootstrap). You can install 2.11BSD using vtserver and a virtual tape drive though. Also, if you do get real 2.11BSD install tapes, you'd probably want to be looking for a TU80 and, IIRC, an M7454 controller card. -ethan From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 26 12:19:14 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:19:14 -0500 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs Message-ID: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> I was hoping to share my pain with others as a coping mechanism. :) Has anyone else worked with DRAM memory controller implementations within FPGAs? I have been struggling for a couple years to find a workable solution in a hobby environment, first on Xilinx and then on Altera. Both companies seem to push the embedded microprocessor solution, MicroBlaze and Nios II, respectively, as an answer. They both offer a built-in memory controller which makes access to the DRAM much much easier, as it's memory mapped to an address region. But the problem is that there is a certain amount of overhead associated with using the processor both in terms of speed and logic utilization. The processors have a maximum speed and making a "gateway" out of the processor doesn't work for any real application. Many people push "opencores" and say there are 30 or 40 open source memory controllers without realizing that all of the limitations eliminate 99% of what's out there, including: Controllers designed for a particular memory architecture/chip type/ bus width Custom busses that aren't documented Some just don't work Require a specific vendor + FGPA because they use proprietary built-in hardware and so on. There are commercial solutions which cost way too much $$$ and often have advanced features which complicate use for the average hobbyist. I need something that has a FIFO-like(or maybe sram-like) interface on it, and that supports single data rate SDRAM. Something simple. Anyone else run into problems with getting a working memory controller for your projects? Thanks Keith From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 26 12:48:41 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:48:41 +0000 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs In-Reply-To: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> References: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D406C89.7020606@philpem.me.uk> On 26/01/11 18:19, Keith M wrote: > Has anyone else worked with DRAM memory controller implementations > within FPGAs? If you mean single-data-rate PC100 SDRAM, then yes. I used to use an OSS/FS IP core until I found out it wouldn't work on the Xilinx platform. It synthesized, but the resulting microcode wouldn't actually work... Ended up rewriting the stupid thing... I started from the ground up, eliminated the concept of caching reads/writes (I wanted this for a CPU core which already had an Icache and Dcache built in), and went for the "simplest option". Took me about three days to get it working and properly parameterise the Verilog code. You can change (at build time): Data bus width (link to CPU) Number of SDRAM column address bits Number of SDRAM row address bits Number of SDRAM bank address bits CAS latency T_rp, T_rcd, T_rfc, refresh rate, initialisation delay and time before enabling CKE None of these are adjustable at runtime; that's been on my TODO list for about six months. Ideally I want to add a control bus to it, which will allow the host to change the SDRAM timings as required. I'll probably need this if I ever want to tie it to a PC SDRAM DIMM. The hardest part is getting the timing right. Screw up the refresh timing and your data will mysteriously corrupt itself over time. Screw up T_rp, T_rcd or T_rfc and you'll have issues with missed reads and writes. Screw up the initialisation and the chip just plain won't work right. And yes, my version works on both the Xilinx and Altera platforms :) > Controllers designed for a particular memory architecture/chip type/ bus > width The solution for that is parameterisation. > Custom busses that aren't documented That's always fun. If it isn't WISHBONE or something similar, then I won't touch it with a barge pole. Building a WISHBONE-to-AVALON bus bridge is a pain, too -- I never managed to get mine to work. > Some just don't work No comment. The 16550 UART and WISHBONE CONMAX cores are pretty nice once you figure out the interface. The bit-width adapters are buggy (as in, "don't work at all") and I ended up rewriting them for my use. > Require a specific vendor + FGPA because they use proprietary built-in > hardware The LatticeMico32 core falls into this category, but I've forked it and started maintaining a "vendor independent" patch set. Still haven't got JTAG Debugging working, but that's probably more a case of "throw some time at it" than anything else. > I need something that has a FIFO-like(or maybe sram-like) interface on > it, and that supports single data rate SDRAM. Something simple. You can't really adapt SDRAM to an SRAM type interface because of the way SDRAM is addressed. If you're already in the right bank and row, then you're more or less fine. If not, then you have to do a bank select and row precharge. That takes a couple of clock cycles to kick in, so you need to tell the host to wait a little while before reading the data bus. With CPUs like the Motorola 68000 series, you just hold nDTACK high for a little while. With the 6502 you have to stop the clock... though why would you attach an 8MB or so SDRAM chip to a 6502, anyway? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 26 12:53:59 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 13:53:59 -0500 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs Message-ID: You don't say how much memory you're needing but I would hazard a guess that for many hobbyist or classiccmp-type projects that SRAM could be made to work with little effort. Not that SRAM is cheapest per bit, but in terms of results per unit effort it's hard to beat. Of course it depends on what your desired result is... if you really truly want a DRAM controller, then SRAM won't satisfy you. But in terms of least effort to desired result I think SRAM is a clear winner even if you end up paying more per bit. e.g. when in the late 90's I made a device for reading out arbitrarily formatted floppies and hard disks at MHz rates it was completely trivial to make a fast bit-buffer out of a SRAM chip and a couple of TTL counters and shift registers. Old classiccmp post: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2000-July/151774.html Tim. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 26 13:04:12 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:04:12 -0000 Subject: Computing epoch (Was: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9120039C5D444187BBAB002ABBC5283D@ANTONIOPC> > VMS time fails on 31-JUL-31086, but there are comments in the > source that the date formatting routines will fail on > 1-Jan-10000 (the code assumes that years are always represented in > four digits). There was a semi-official response somewhere that said (essentially) "we know and we'll fix it before then". Sadly I can't find my copy right now ... Antonio From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 26 13:44:32 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:44:32 -0500 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4079A0.7060201@verizon.net> On 1/26/2011 1:53 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > You don't say how much memory you're needing but I would hazard a guess that for many hobbyist or classiccmp-type projects that SRAM could be made to work with little effort. I should have more fully qualified what I was talking about.. I own a couple FPGA eval boards, and these boards have (mostly) some type of DRAM memory(xilinx has DDR, and altera has single data rate SDRAM) which gives you a fair bit of memory. There are a few boards that have SRAM, but there is often very little of it. With the FGPAs I'm using, they have integrated fast memory made up of M9Ks or Block Rams. They present a very easy to use interface. While I could plonk an SRAM on a connected protoboard, it would eat up all my spare GPIOs and then I'd have memory but nothing to do with it. :) I've never used sram, but all the associated HDL I've seen associated with using one is very easy and simple. I'd love if my boards came with 8mb or more of SRAM. :) For this particular flash-in-the-pan idea, I need a VGA frame buffer. I've got a similar idea for a scan converter which would take low-res digital video in and spit out higher-res and higher refresh rates. Thanks Keith From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 13:01:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:01:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <4D3F459B.5000005@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 25, 11 09:50:19 pm Message-ID: > > Hae you looked for activity on the bus lines, processor pins, SIMM > > sockets, etc? It may be soemthing obvious. > > Not yet. If I get sufficiently bored in the not too distant future, I'll > probably build up an ISA bodge-board for the HP16500B and see what's > going on. While a logic analyser is avery useful tool. a logic probe is useful too, just to see if anything is going on -- and it's a lot quicker to use than the anlyser. Of course a LogicDart gives you the best of both for many jobs, but just try finding one now... I would run a logic probe over the pins of the BIOS ROM, the ISA slots, etc. Basically, anything where you have some idea waht pins should be toggling... > > I asusme ther are internal signal layers too, so resoldering both > > surfaces may not be enough. > > I have a sneaking suspicion it's a 4-layer board... If the inner layers are just power and ground planes, then it's fairly easy to fix, in that the signal traces are visible. But if there are hidden signal traces too, as I'd expect, it's a lot harder if there's damaged through-plating anywhere. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 12:39:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:39:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3F3961.9030500@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Jan 25, 11 03:58:09 pm Message-ID: > Wow .... Tony and I agree!!! It's a miracle. It does happen from time to time... > > It all goes back to my simplest possible definition .... computer = > automated calculating device that runs a program. :) What do you mean by 'calculating'? Does this implky numerical computions only? > Everything else (analog/digital; mechanical/electronic; binary/decimal; > special-purpose/general-purpose; factory-tuned/user-programmable) -- > they're all just subsets. How do you define the 'program' of an analugue computer? The interconnetions betwen the suming amplifiers, integrators, etc together with the gains/functiuos of those units? If so, I guess patching together digital function blocks (registers, adders, etc) is also a program, in which case ENIAC was a programmable machine I think. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 12:50:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:50:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP is not a computer (was ENIAC) In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Jan 25, 11 01:08:38 pm Message-ID: > > Tony wrote: > > >(I don't think anyone here would claim the PDP8/e on my > > desk was anyhting other than a computer).=20 > > With tongue in cheek, I suggest that the PDP8/e is *not* a computer. Actually, I think this is the very heart of the matter... Abraham lincoln (I think) said (when arguing about a rather more serious matter) that 'calling a tail a leg does not make it one'. I would add that also calling a tail something else does not stop it from being a tail. In this case, calling something a 'computer' does not necessarily make it a computer by all definitions. It may be a computer by some definitions and not others. It may not be a computer by any sensible defition Similarly, the fact that the PDP8 was called a 'Programemd Data Processor' and that the HP9830 [1] was called a 'Model 30 Calculator' by HP, both for perfectly good marketing reasons, does not stop either of them being classed as computers by a reasonable definition of the word. [1] A desktoip machine with an alphanumeric display and BASIC in ROM. It's hard to make a sensible definition of 'computer' that excludes it. So, yes, you can, very reasoanbly, call ENIAC, Colossus, the ABC, etc, 'computers'. Equally, yuo may have a definition, such as requiring a stored program, that excludes them. Neither is 'right' or 'wrong'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 12:56:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:56:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 25, 11 01:14:40 pm Message-ID: > A Jacquard loom is programmable and even runs loops... > > *I* wouldn't call it a computer. 'A computer must be programamble' is not the same thing as 'Any programmable device is a computer'. I would class a Jacquard loom as a programamble non-computational device. Another example : Some years ago I designed and built a device that outputted various carefully-timed pulses tocontrol another device. The unit was programamble, there werecounters that you could load under program control and which then counted down, conditioanl jumps on a counter getting to 0-, or on external trigger inputs, a 4 level return stack so you could have subroutines in the control program, etc. But I wouldn't call that a computer. A programamble control system, sure... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 13:43:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:43:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <6F38A280D89545D18835A9AC4C26B4E3@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 25, 11 07:57:08 pm Message-ID: > > >> A rater OT question ; Can uou buy new, at any price, a PC motherboard tht > >> will take ISA cards? Ive got a lot of number of special-purpose ISA cards > >> I > >> have, and seen even more, but I guess if you want to use things like that > >> you have to keep an old machine running. > > NEW I'm not sure. But certainly an used Pentium-4 board can be found. I > had a Asus one, and there were others 2-3 years ago I suspect that keeping an original 5160 or 5170 running will be a lot easier than keeping such a board running. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 13:54:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:54:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 25, 11 10:11:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 25 January 2011 20:18, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> Folks, > >> > >> Picked up one of these wee beasts today at long last, Z80 CP/M and CP/N > >> machine from ~1981, complete with not-oft-spotted hi-res colour PAL boar= > ds > > > > The H-res board is not that rare. The PAL enocder is, if you have that. > > Yup, the machine has a TV-out as well as the standard monitor. The PAL > board is marked as such and has a colour modulator on it. Most of them have TV outputs, whether the PAL encoder is fitted or not. The standard configruation (at least for 40 column machines, the 80 column video card is different, and I've never seen one), is that there's a composite video output and a UHF TV output both fed from the text system. If you add the hi-res card, the UHF output remains text-only, the composite output carries text and hi-res suitably combined. There is a header plug on the high-res board that carries the output of the CLUT (8 bit), that's where the RGB board and I assume the PAL enocder are connected. What I can't rememebr is if/how the text video output ends up on those boards. > > > Is this the 5.25" floppy version or the 8"? I thought the former normally > > 5.25". I've only ever heard talk of the 8" Ditto. > > > had the drives in the processor box, in which case the cabel is internal > > (but you say you've not dismantled it). The floppy controller is based on > > a 1771, and has a standard Shugart-ish interface for the drives. > > Yup, hence me raiding my store of Cumanas :) You eman you cna't make one up in less time. I am amazed! > I should be able to get a Megger at work. The reason I mention the > caps is because the last 3 or 4 machines I've had in have all blown > the mains filters. Right.. Those are not the capacitors that most people replace without testing on old machines... Yes, mains filters can and do blow. I've replaced a few -- well, actually, most of the time I've replaced the capacitors only (seaprate components on a PCB). If there's potted filter module, I guess you replace the whole thing. I don;t think there's any way of telling if they're going to fail. One time I was using an HP machine and for no apparaent reason one of the mains filter capacitors in the monitor exploded. I removed it and carried on using the monitor untiL i got a replacement. No other problems. A failed mains filter may blow the fuse, but I doubt it'll do any more damage to anything. I wonder if it's worth put a light bulb in series with the mains live wire (that's a real light bulb, of course, not one of those CFL things) and powering up the filter/transfoemr with the secondary windings of the latter disconnected? It should catch catastrophic failures with no further damage. -tony From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 26 14:29:50 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:29:50 -0500 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs In-Reply-To: <4D406C89.7020606@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> <4D406C89.7020606@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D40843E.4020403@verizon.net> On 1/26/2011 1:48 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 26/01/11 18:19, Keith M wrote: >> Has anyone else worked with DRAM memory controller implementations >> within FPGAs? > > If you mean single-data-rate PC100 SDRAM, then yes. I guess that's what I mean. :) My chip is actually a A3V64S40ETP is organized as 4-bank x 1,048,576-word x 16-bit Synchronous DRAM with LVTTL interface. http://www.zentel.com.tw/download/A3V64S40ETP_v1.1_Zentel.zip (sorry for zipped pdf) which seems to have similar specs to a more common http://www.issi.com/pdf/42S16400.pdf > Ended up rewriting the stupid thing... I started from the ground up, > eliminated the concept of caching reads/writes (I wanted this for a CPU > core which already had an Icache and Dcache built in), and went for the > "simplest option". Took me about three days to get it working and > properly parameterise the Verilog code. > > You can change (at build time): > Data bus width (link to CPU) > Number of SDRAM column address bits > Number of SDRAM row address bits > Number of SDRAM bank address bits > CAS latency > T_rp, T_rcd, T_rfc, refresh rate, initialisation delay and time before > enabling CKE Jeez. That's pretty good if you can write a dram controller from the ground up in three days. It took me longer just to get Xilinx's MIG controller to synthesize. > None of these are adjustable at runtime; that's been on my TODO list for > about six months. Ideally I want to add a control bus to it, which will > allow the host to change the SDRAM timings as required. I'll probably > need this if I ever want to tie it to a PC SDRAM DIMM. This "high performance dram memory controller" (hpdmc) has been modified to work with my memory. https://github.com/marmolejo/zet/tree/master/cores/hpdmc_sdr16/rtl It has a control bus and a data bus based on FML("wishbone w/o the corner cases"?) http://www.milkymist.org/socdoc/hpdmc.pdf > You can't really adapt SDRAM to an SRAM type interface because of the > way SDRAM is addressed. If you're already in the right bank and row, > then you're more or less fine. If not, then you have to do a bank select > and row precharge. That takes a couple of clock cycles to kick in, so > you need to tell the host to wait a little while before reading the data > bus. Maybe not adapt per se, or directly convert, but certainly you could have an easier to use interface. Like maybe front-end a small FIFO to the memory controller. Keep checking the FIFO depth, and read when necessary. There's no requirement for instant data from the controller. I guess I should have said "present an easier to use interface" instead of an "sram-like interface." Thanks Keith From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 14:32:29 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 18:32:29 -0200 Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard References: Message-ID: <3414A23B1DB94355A675502ACFF7968F@portajara> > I suspect that keeping an original 5160 or 5170 running will be a lot > easier than keeping such a board running. Probably, but it does not run altium designer, and when I need to do a BGA design using very high-speed FPGAs, a 5160/5170 does not help me much. Maybe using smartwork for DOS, who knows? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 26 14:37:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:37:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: WTD: 386 motherboard In-Reply-To: <3414A23B1DB94355A675502ACFF7968F@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza - Listas" at Jan 26, 11 06:32:29 pm Message-ID: > > > > I suspect that keeping an original 5160 or 5170 running will be a lot > > easier than keeping such a board running. > > Probably, but it does not run altium designer, and when I need to do a > BGA design using very high-speed FPGAs, a 5160/5170 does not help me much. I wasn;'t aware that application required the use of a special-purpose ISA board... Point being, of course, that nobody stops you from having a machine to run your CAD tools and a separate machine to use the ISA cards. My original question related to som very non-standard ISA boards that have (AFAIK) not even PCI versions, let alone an equivaletn you could conencto a USB port or similar. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 15:45:20 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:45:20 -0600 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, I have the RL11 (M7762) for $ 60. If you need cables, I should have them, but need a few for myself and a list member who is getting an RL8-A from me. Domestic shipping should be around $10. Thanks, Paul On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 8:23 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > I am reassembling a PDP-11/44 from parts for the Rhode Island Computer > Museum. I would like to try an RL01 or RL02 drive on the system, but > we don't have another RL02 controller. > > Do any of you have a M7762 RL11 disk controller board that you could > donate or sell inexpensively for this project? > > The RA81s won't spin up, so I suspect that I need to replace the > starting capacitors. > > Do any of you know where to get replacement starting capacitors for > the RA80 or RA81 drives? > > Details on the project are here: > https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144 > > -- > Michael Thompson > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jan 26 16:25:30 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:25:30 -0800 Subject: Need RK8E Controller [Was: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All this talk of folks needing an RL0x controller for a Unibus machine got me to thinking - I have a PDP 8/e in nice shape, and a few known good RK05 drives, but no RK8E controller boardset. It gets tiring running the machine off of paper take or RX01 floppies. Anyone out there have one (or Plessey or other equivalents) that they might be willing to sell? I have all of the cables needed, including the paddle cards that plug into the Omnibus to connect up the drives, just need the three board set in known operational condition. Rick Bensene From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 26 16:43:42 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 14:43:42 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 25, 11 01:14:40 pm, Message-ID: <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2011 at 18:56, Tony Duell wrote: > 'A computer must be programamble' is not the same thing as 'Any > programmable device is a computer'. I would class a Jacquard loom as a > programamble non-computational device. Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? Motorola didn't term it as such (they called it an "Industrial Control Unit"), but I submit that it can be made to calculate, is programmable, and so is a computer. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 26 17:27:50 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 23:27:50 +0000 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs In-Reply-To: <4D40843E.4020403@verizon.net> References: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> <4D406C89.7020606@philpem.me.uk> <4D40843E.4020403@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D40ADF6.2000604@philpem.me.uk> On 26/01/11 20:29, Keith M wrote: > My chip is actually a > > A3V64S40ETP is organized as 4-bank x 1,048,576-word x 16-bit Synchronous > DRAM with LVTTL interface. > > http://www.zentel.com.tw/download/A3V64S40ETP_v1.1_Zentel.zip > (sorry for zipped pdf) You're using an Altera/Terasic DE1 (Cyclone II Starter Kit) developer board, aren't you? > Jeez. That's pretty good if you can write a dram controller from the > ground up in three days. It took me longer just to get Xilinx's MIG > controller to synthesize. Sometimes it's less effort to write code from scratch than to try and make someone else's code work... > This "high performance dram memory controller" (hpdmc) has been modified > to work with my memory. > > https://github.com/marmolejo/zet/tree/master/cores/hpdmc_sdr16/rtl Oh, the Milkymist SDRAM controller core... That should work quite nicely. Sebastien Bordeauducq is a frickin' good HDL coder... I didn't use it because I wanted something with a WISHBONE interface, and there was a (remote) possibility that my project (at the time) might end up as a commercial product. Hence, introducing GPL code into the HDL would be a Really Bad Idea. > Maybe not adapt per se, or directly convert, but certainly you could > have an easier to use interface. You could have an SRAM-like interface, you'd just need to have a BUSY or DTACK output to go with it. Is that close enough? Either way, you're not getting rid of the BUSY output... > Like maybe front-end a small FIFO to the memory controller. Keep > checking the FIFO depth, and read when necessary. There's no requirement > for instant data from the controller. Almost all SDRAM chips can handle page reads. Basically, you pick a row, then read a full page of data out (usually 8 words or so). You could buffer that in a dual-port RAM. It'll speed up sequential memory access, at the cost of slowing down random access. It also falls into the categories "a bit of a pig to implement" and "can't quite get my head around the logic", which is why it's still on my to-do list! Also, I haven't needed it -- the LM32 DCACHE and ICACHE work well enough for my requirements. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From evan at snarc.net Wed Jan 26 18:14:32 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:14:32 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net> > What do you mean by 'calculating'? Does this implky numerical computions only? My definition gets a tad awkward re: Colossus ... > How do you define the 'program' of an analugue computer? I was wondering the same thing. But I'm not losing sleep over it. :) From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jan 26 18:38:38 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:38:38 -0500 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs In-Reply-To: <4D40ADF6.2000604@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> <4D406C89.7020606@philpem.me.uk> <4D40843E.4020403@verizon.net> <4D40ADF6.2000604@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D40BE8E.7010504@verizon.net> On 1/26/2011 6:27 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 26/01/11 20:29, Keith M wrote: >> My chip is actually a >> >> A3V64S40ETP is organized as 4-bank x 1,048,576-word x 16-bit Synchronous >> DRAM with LVTTL interface. >> >> http://www.zentel.com.tw/download/A3V64S40ETP_v1.1_Zentel.zip >> (sorry for zipped pdf) > > You're using an Altera/Terasic DE1 (Cyclone II Starter Kit) developer > board, aren't you? Close! A DE0. It has a much more capable, but smaller Cyclone III. (15k vs 18k LEs on DE1) I like the m9k's in Cyclone III instead of m4k's. > Sometimes it's less effort to write code from scratch than to try and > make someone else's code work... > Sure. I like doing this when I've got a chance of actually succeeding. :) If I had unlimited free time then it would be on my list. Wasn't there something about time and skill being interchangeable? If you lack in one, the other makes up for it. Or something like that? > Oh, the Milkymist SDRAM controller core... That should work quite > nicely. Sebastien Bordeauducq is a frickin' good HDL coder... I've been picking his brain recently. Although he's a super-coder, and I'm still, well, closer to the beginning than the end. :) So he has a tendency to underestimate the time/skills/knowledge necessary to do something. I've been chatting with him this week. > You could have an SRAM-like interface, you'd just need to have a BUSY or > DTACK output to go with it. Is that close enough? > > Either way, you're not getting rid of the BUSY output... Yup. That's basically what I imagined. Once the data is "ready", something is asserted or cleared, and then you read the data. Definitely what I had in mind. Thanks Keith From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 26 19:35:20 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 01:35:20 +0000 Subject: OT: DRAM memory controllers within FPGAs In-Reply-To: <4D40BE8E.7010504@verizon.net> References: <4D4065A2.5080004@verizon.net> <4D406C89.7020606@philpem.me.uk> <4D40843E.4020403@verizon.net> <4D40ADF6.2000604@philpem.me.uk> <4D40BE8E.7010504@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D40CBD8.1020304@philpem.me.uk> On 27/01/11 00:38, Keith M wrote: >> You're using an Altera/Terasic DE1 (Cyclone II Starter Kit) developer >> board, aren't you? > > Close! A DE0. It has a much more capable, but smaller Cyclone III. (15k > vs 18k LEs on DE1) I like the m9k's in Cyclone III instead of m4k's. Nice. You should be able to get a full LatticeMico32 core in there without any trouble. Bolt on CONMAX, a 16550 and a Verilog ROM and you can have your own SoC processor :) > Sure. I like doing this when I've got a chance of actually succeeding. :) Oh aye, there's no fun in a project if it's likely to fail. > If I had unlimited free time then it would be on my list. I've yet to find anyone with a decent stock of Round Tuits. Apparently the Law of Equal Exchange dictates that you can't actually *make* a new Round Tuit unless you already *have* a Round Tuit... Did I just reference Fullmetal Alchemist on classiccmp? > Wasn't there something about time and skill being interchangeable? If > you lack in one, the other makes up for it. Or something like that? I suspect there are limits to that :) >> You could have an SRAM-like interface, you'd just need to have a BUSY or >> DTACK output to go with it. Is that close enough? >> >> Either way, you're not getting rid of the BUSY output... > > Yup. That's basically what I imagined. Once the data is "ready", > something is asserted or cleared, and then you read the data. > > Definitely what I had in mind. That's basically what WISHBONE is -- - DQ is the data bus - A is the address bus - CYC and STB start the transfer. CYC is the bus clock, STB is the bus enable (strobe). - R/W tells you whether it's a read (slave -> master) or write (master -> slave) transaction - ERR tells the master there was a bus error (generally speaking this would be generated by a memory mapper or MMU) - ACK tells the master that the transaction completed successfully Fairly simple. The timing diagrams in the WISHBONE spec make it very easy to understand. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 26 19:45:28 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 17:45:28 -0800 Subject: PDP is not a computer (was ENIAC) In-Reply-To: References: <09c190f74994019497df7415e04b5991@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert"at Jan 25, 11 11:53:10 am Message-ID: From: Rick Bensene Sent: Tuesday, January 25, 2011 1:09 PM > Tony wrote: >> (I don't think anyone here would claim the PDP8/e on my >> desk was anyhting other than a computer). > With tongue in cheek, I suggest that the PDP8/e is *not* a computer. > PDP stood for "Programmed Data Processor". DEC specifically did not > want to market their machines as computers, because they feared that the > bean counters that process purchasing requests for potential customers > for this machine might see the word "computer" and freak out envisioning > huge glass-walled rooms with gigantic mainframes and huge air > conditioning systems. The term "Programmed Data Processor" was an > attempt to avoid the stigma (for lack of a better word) that executive > types of the day had attached to the term computer. > Before flaming, please remember...tongue is firmly pressing on cheek. Certainly not flaming here. However... The decision by DEC to name their first entry into the computer industry the Programmed Data Processor 1, or PDP-1, was based on just such a view of the market. However, by the time of the PDP-8/e, the naming was such simply because it was DEC's trademarked designation for all of their computers, used across 3 architectures (and soon after across 4). Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jonas at otter.se Wed Jan 26 02:33:41 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 08:33:41 +0000 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Definition of "computer" from the Oxford Dictionaries Online: an electronic device which is capable of receiving information (data) in a particular form and of performing a sequence of operations in accordance with a predetermined but variable set of procedural instructions (program) to produce a result in the form of information or signals. a person who makes calculations, especially with a calculating machine. I suppose that would make ENIAC a computer, since the program is variable, even if only by moving lots of wires. /Jonas From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 26 08:37:13 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 15:37:13 +0100 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D403199.5050005@softjar.se> On 01/26/11 15:00, Michael Thompson wrote: > I am reassembling a PDP-11/44 from parts for the Rhode Island Computer > Museum. I would like to try an RL01 or RL02 drive on the system, but > we don't have another RL02 controller. > > Do any of you have a M7762 RL11 disk controller board that you could > donate or sell inexpensively for this project? Can't help on that one... > The RA81s won't spin up, so I suspect that I need to replace the > starting capacitors. > > Do any of you know where to get replacement starting capacitors for > the RA80 or RA81 drives? I assume you *are* aware of the power sequence bus of the RA8x drives. Without that one properly terminated, the drives will never spin up. Johnny From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 26 12:45:19 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 19:45:19 +0100 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D406BBF.2030403@softjar.se> On 01/26/11 19:00, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 25, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Michael Thompson > wrote: >> > I am reassembling a PDP-11/44 from parts for the Rhode Island Computer... >> > >> > The RA81s won't spin up, so I suspect that I need to replace the >> > starting capacitors. > I read through the blog - if the motors start spinning as you describe > (I envision you mean for a few seconds; please correct me if this is > wrong)_then_ the drive stops spinning, I doubt it's the capacitors. > If the motors_don't_ start moving when you put the drive online, then > that is one component to examine. Nit pick: The online operation is the "A" and "B" buttons. The "RUN" button is for spinning the drive up. It can be spinning and offline. :-) > RA81s were at one point, exceedingly susceptible to HDA failure. I > don't recall the specific ECO levels, but some version after "E" used > a different glue than its predecessors leading to particulate > contamination leading to catastrophic failure. ISTR looking for "H2" > or "K2" drives after that disaster. Yes. But I think even with the bad glue, the disk do spin up more than a couple of seconds. > RA81 drives have a DB25 inside. You can plug a terminal in and run > on-board diagnostics and monitor operations. You can run with the lid > up or lid down (snaking a ribbon cable out of the drive). The molex > connector next to the data connector is to power a small hand-held LED > terminal (I saw one once, used with a high voltage chassis for > particle physics, but the terminal was the same). Good suggestion. The terminal should be at 300 bps, if I remember right. 8N1. And data leads only is enough. > Try plugging in a working VT220 and letting the drive tell you what it > thinks is going on. You might find that it's starting to spin up then > not liking what it sees and spinning down. > > Oh... just a detail - you mention locked heads - you_did_ pull the > cord to retension the drive belt, right? (for safe transport, the > RA81 has you locking the heads_and_ disengaging the motor from the > HDA by removing belt tension). If you didn't do this step, what I > think may happen is the onboard processor will start to spin the > motor, sense no rotation from the HDA, then spin the motor down and > emit a fault code. Maybe this is what you are seeing? That was a very good suggestion. The belt can be disengaged in two ways, depending on the version of the drive. Either a cord, or else a lever on the inside of the outer wall. It should be pretty obvious when you know what you are looking for, though. With these suggestions, as well as the power control bus to check, the drives should be possible to get running... :-) >> > https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144 > Reading through your blog, I don't think you will have success with > booting 2.11BSD on your 11/44 with a TU81+ unless you have install > media that knows about that tape controller. The 2.9BSD tapes I have > require an "MS" device (older OSes might or might not require an "MT" > device). Back in the day, there were several incompatible tape > controller types, with different boot ROMs, and your install media had > to match your controller and ROMs (or you had to toggle in the > bootstrap). You can install 2.11BSD using vtserver and a virtual tape > drive though. Also, if you do get real 2.11BSD install tapes, you'd > probably want to be looking for a TU80 and, IIRC, an M7454 controller > card. 2.11 will install fine from a TU81. The biggest problem is finding booting roms for the TU81. TU81 is TMSCP, works the same as TK50. Johnny From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 19:04:13 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:04:13 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: <4D403199.5050005@softjar.se> References: <4D403199.5050005@softjar.se> Message-ID: > I assume you *are* aware of the power sequence bus of the RA8x drives. > Without that one properly terminated, the drives will never spin up. > > ? ? ? ?Johnny > You assumed correctly. The little terminator was plugged onto the power sequence connector, -- Michael Thompson From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Jan 26 19:34:42 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2011 20:34:42 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration Message-ID: > I read through the blog - if the motors start spinning as you describe > (I envision you mean for a few seconds; please correct me if this is > wrong) _then_ the drive stops spinning, I doubt it's the capacitors. > If the motors _don't_ start moving when you put the drive online, then > that is one component to examine. The motors start to spin up, accelerate for a few seconds and then stop. A few years ago I fixed and RA81 that had the same symptoms by replacing the starting capacitor. > RA81s were at one point, exceedingly susceptible to HDA failure. ?I > don't recall the specific ECO levels, but some version after "E" used > a different glue than its predecessors leading to particulate > contamination leading to catastrophic failure. ?ISTR looking for "H2" > or "K2" drives after that disaster. Two RA81s have tan colored HDAs, one has a black HDA. I think that the black HDAs are the new design that doesn't crash so often. > RA81 drives have a DB25 inside. ?You can plug a terminal in and run > on-board diagnostics and monitor operations. ?You can run with the lid > up or lid down (snaking a ribbon cable out of the drive). ?The molex > connector next to the data connector is to power a small hand-held LED > terminal (I saw one once, used with a high voltage chassis for > particle physics, but the terminal was the same). > > Try plugging in a working VT220 and letting the drive tell you what it > thinks is going on. ?You might find that it's starting to spin up then > not liking what it sees and spinning down. I forgot that I have a DEC Termiflex that plugs into the RA80/81 and the TU81 diagnostic port. I will connect it to the drives this weekend and see if I can get more details on the problem. > Oh... just a detail - you mention locked heads - you _did_ pull the > cord to retension the drive belt, right? ?(for safe transport, the > RA81 has you locking the heads _and_ disengaging the motor from the > HDA by removing belt tension). ?If you didn't do this step, what I > think may happen is the onboard processor will start to spin the > motor, sense no rotation from the HDA, then spin the motor down and > emit a fault code. ?Maybe this is what you are seeing? I saw the pull cable on the right side of the drive. I have used those in the past to replace HDAs or motors. I will make sure that it was not in a position to release tension on the drive. > >> https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144 > > Reading through your blog, I don't think you will have success with > booting 2.11BSD on your 11/44 with a TU81+ unless you have install > media that knows about that tape controller. ?The 2.9BSD tapes I have > require an "MS" device (older OSes might or might not require an "MT" > device). ?Back in the day, there were several incompatible tape > controller types, with different boot ROMs, and your install media had > to match your controller and ROMs (or you had to toggle in the > bootstrap). ?You can install 2.11BSD using vtserver and a virtual tape > drive though. ?Also, if you do get real 2.11BSD install tapes, you'd > probably want to be looking for a TU80 and, IIRC, an M7454 controller > card. > > -ethan I looked at the 2.11BSD setup document and it says that the TU81+ is a supported tape drive. There are two of those drives at RICM, but no TU80. The M8739 KLESI-UA interface for the TU81+ doesn't seem to be common or inexpensive. I think that the RCS/RI guys have one that I could borrow for an installation. It might be simpler to just use vtserver. Thanks for all of the comments. -- Michael Thompson From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jan 27 02:10:05 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:10:05 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: <4D0387B0.8080902@arachelian.com> <97D88E62585D4D6D845A0BFEC76D5F15@portajara><262DE34E5261428BAC8C356D1E96A5B8@massey.ac.nz> <4D126B6D.6040608@arachelian.com><446951A77ABB47F8B5AE5083B0C30142@massey.ac.nz> <4D13A67F.1030908@arachelian.com><2F962B08827043D48625681EFF2328F9@vshack> <4D13F710.3080206@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <39065CB919D64E238583DFD9147EFEAF@vshack> Ok, for those that have been following this project of mine there has been progress. I had a friend visit today who owns a Lisa 2/10. He bought some of his Lisa ICs with him for swap-out diagnostic purposes. The cause of the Lisa 2/10 failing its diagnostic test was indeed one of the two ICs under suspicion on the I/O board . It was the IWM Apple 344-0041 (Integrated WOZ machine controller). The other suspect., the ROM, appears OK (even though it seems a highly unusual version..I should learn to use my new (unused) ROM burner and take a copy of the ROM for posterity). However, the widget drive itself throws up an error. First things first though. I'll source a replacement IWM chip first, then worry about the widget drive. It might just need some exercise. My friend also had an IDEFile ProFile drive emulator which we hooked up to my working Lisa 2. Whoo hoo, it was great to see the Lisa Office Suite boot into action. It looked very cool and in 1983 it would have looked even cooler! Tez From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 27 03:46:43 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:46:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: Need RK8E Controller [Was: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011, Rick Bensene wrote: > Anyone out there have one (or Plessey or other equivalents) that they > might be willing to sell? I have all of the cables needed, including > the paddle cards that plug into the Omnibus to connect up the drives, > just need the three board set in known operational condition. Ehm, there are no paddle cards in the Omnibus... The controller is a three board set which also includes the one-cycle data break interface. The drive cables directly plug into one of the controller boards. Or do you mean the "Unibus" (BC11) cables to connect one drive to the next one? You may ask Philipp Hachtmann for a controller, he may be able to help you. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jan 27 03:51:23 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:51:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 26 Jan 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: > Definition of "computer" from the Oxford Dictionaries Online: > > an electronic device which is capable of receiving information (data) in ^^^^^^^^^^ [...] Aha, so Oxford's dictionary is as trustworthy as Wikipedia ;-) Everyone knows that the Z3 is a computer, too. Christian From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 27 03:51:55 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:51:55 +0100 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: <4D403199.5050005@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4D41403B.3080404@softjar.se> On 2011-01-27 02:04, Michael Thompson wrote: >> I assume you *are* aware of the power sequence bus of the RA8x drives. >> Without that one properly terminated, the drives will never spin up. >> >> Johnny >> > > You assumed correctly. The little terminator was plugged onto the > power sequence connector, On the right side, I hope... The terminator must be on the in-side. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 27 05:27:48 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 03:27:48 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 25, 11 01:14:40 pm, <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D4156B4.9050302@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? Motorola didn't > term it as such (they called it an "Industrial Control Unit"), but I > submit that it can be made to calculate, is programmable, and so is a > computer. In fact, the MC14500B architecture is very similar to that of the PDP-14. I suspect that is not a coincidence, as they were intended for essentially the same market. Eric From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Thu Jan 27 07:32:51 2011 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 13:32:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: AW: SCSI hard drives of large form factors In-Reply-To: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <715214.63455.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54248.85334.qm@web29103.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Fujitsu made SCSI-variants aside from their long-lasting 8-inch disk drives. They basically hat an SMD-E to SCSI bridge added. I am in posession of a M2333K-drive with such a bridge-board made by Fujitsu. The drive has the model-number M2333KS and has a capacity of 330MB. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers : http://classic-computing.dyndns.org/ ________________________________ Von: Mr Ian Primus An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Montag, den 24. Januar 2011, 17:38:00 Uhr Betreff: SCSI hard drives of large form factors Here's something I was thinking about the other day. I *know* for a fact that SCSI interface hard drives existed with 8" platters. I've never seen one, however. Does anyone know of any specific model numbers, or have any product information or pictures of such devices? Along the same lines, did SCSI interface devices exist with 14" platters? An option for the venerable Fujitsu Eagle, perhaps? I know that Adaptec made a standalone SCSI-SMD bridge board. I have one, although I've never been able to get it to work. I got as far as hand-crafting SCSI commands to try to get it to format the drive, and it would sit there, device active, but the drive never stepped or seeked off the first cylinder. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 09:34:30 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 10:34:30 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 26, 2011 at 8:34 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > The motors start to spin up, accelerate for a few seconds and then > stop. A few years ago I fixed and RA81 that had the same symptoms by > replacing the starting capacitor. OK. I presented alternatives because in all the years I've been working with RA81s, that wasn't a component I've ever had to replace (but I've seen _plenty_ of RA81 faults). >> RA81s were at one point, exceedingly susceptible to HDA failure... > > Two RA81s have tan colored HDAs, one has a black HDA. I think that the > black HDAs are the new design that doesn't crash so often. The tan ones might or might not be susceptible, but I think you are right that the black housings are newer and manufactured past that point (I've never owned one that new). >> RA81 drives have a DB25 inside. ?You can plug a terminal in and run >> on-board diagnostics and monitor operations... > > I forgot that I have a DEC Termiflex that plugs into the RA80/81 and > the TU81 diagnostic port. I will connect it to the drives this weekend > and see if I can get more details on the problem. My recollection of observing RA81 data is that it generates enough traffic that it's worth having 80x25 if you have room for a full-sized terminal. >> Oh... just a detail - you mention locked heads - you _did_ pull the >> cord to retension the drive belt, right? > > I saw the pull cable on the right side of the drive. I have used those > in the past to replace HDAs or motors. I will make sure that it was > not in a position to release tension on the drive. A quick check, but important. > I looked at the 2.11BSD setup document and it says that the TU81+ is a > supported tape drive. Handy. > The M8739 KLESI-UA interface for the TU81+ doesn't seem to be > common or inexpensive. I think that the RCS/RI guys have one that I > could borrow for an installation. The M8739 KLESI is the same as the one in a VAX-11/725, if you happen to have one of those lying around. > It might be simpler to just use vtserver. It most likely will be. > Thanks for all of the comments. Happy to help. I've got my own 11/44 that I haven't done anything with yet (it was a rescue) so it's a learning experience for me, too. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 27 10:42:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 08:42:36 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D4156B4.9050302@brouhaha.com> References: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D4156B4.9050302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D412FFC.18096.A76C5A@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2011 at 3:27, Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? Motorola didn't > > term it as such (they called it an "Industrial Control Unit"), but > I > submit that it can be made to calculate, is programmable, and so > is a > computer. > > In fact, the MC14500B architecture is very similar to that of the > PDP-14. I suspect that is not a coincidence, as they were intended > for essentially the same market. Okay, let's drop down one step. Is a PLC a computer? (basically not much more than a latch and an EPROM)? It's programmable, and it can, after a fashion, be made to calculate, given the right feedback terms. Basically a state machine. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 27 12:11:19 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 12:11:19 -0600 Subject: Passing of Bill Mayberry, Terak co-founder Message-ID: <201101271813.p0RID1EM064910@billY.EZWIND.NET> Today I learned that William Mayberry, one of the cofounders of Terak, passed away in August 2010. He started as an EE at University of Illinois where he worked on the ILLIAC. He worked at Sperry Flight Systems. He designed the Space Shuttle MDM system, then went to Boeing and worked on the electronics of the 747, then the flight control and weapon systems of the Apache helicopter. In 1975, he cofounded Terak Computer and became its CEO. He'd always kept me in mind to help preserve his Terak history, and I'm glad to say his family is helping with that. I'm working with his widow to help preserve the materials she has. One of his nephews has an interest in preserving the Terak. Contact me if you could assist with physical rescue in the Phoenix area. - John From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 27 13:52:59 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 14:52:59 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D4156B4.9050302@brouhaha.com> References: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 25, 11 01:14:40 pm, <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4156B4.9050302@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D41CD1B.9020501@neurotica.com> On 1/27/11 6:27 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? Motorola didn't > > term it as such (they called it an "Industrial Control Unit"), but I > > submit that it can be made to calculate, is programmable, and so is a > > computer. > > In fact, the MC14500B architecture is very similar to that of the > PDP-14. I suspect that is not a coincidence, as they were intended for > essentially the same market. How tough are those MC14500B chips to find these days? I'd love to mess with one. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 27 14:02:30 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:02:30 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D41CF56.6060601@snarc.net> > Everyone knows that the Z3 is a computer, too I agree (non-sarcastic.) It's an electromechanical one. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 27 14:40:36 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:40:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <39065CB919D64E238583DFD9147EFEAF@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Jan 27, 11 09:10:05 pm Message-ID: > However, the widget drive itself throws up an error. First things first > though. I'll source a replacement IWM chip first, then worry about the > widget drive. It might just need some exercise. Is this the same IWM that was used in the earlier Macs? That might be a source of one. As for the drive, this is the strange 5.25" drive, isn't it? I would love to see insdie one. Hwoever, my first comment is going to be that I suspect an alignment disk for that is even harder to find than alignment disks for standard drives, so whatrver you do, don't disturb the head alignment! I don't think there are schematics of the Widget out there, so you may be somwhat on your own. A drive typically consists of several subsystems -- the spindle motore, the haed positoner (and track 0 sensor), the index sensor, write protect sensor, etcm and the read/write chain. Apple may well have oden without some of the sensors, though. Does the eror you get give any more information? Does thre drive try to spin? Does it move the heads? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 27 14:46:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:46:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: from "Christian Corti" at Jan 27, 11 10:51:23 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, 26 Jan 2011, Jonas Otter wrote: > > Definition of "computer" from the Oxford Dictionaries Online: > > > > an electronic device which is capable of receiving information (data) in > ^^^^^^^^^^ > [...] > > Aha, so Oxford's dictionary is as trustworthy as Wikipedia ;-) Everyone > knows that the Z3 is a computer, too. Although I use a printed OED a lot, I don't necessarily trust an English dictionary for the precise techncial definition of a term. In general, certianly the smaller versios of the OED define the word as it's commonly used (which, to be fair, is what most people need to know). I have hoever, often been pleasantly suprised by techncial terms in the OED, the drfinitons are a lot more acurate than in some other reference books. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 27 14:22:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:22:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need RK8E Controller [Was: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Jan 26, 11 02:25:30 pm Message-ID: > > All this talk of folks needing an RL0x controller for a Unibus machine > got me to thinking - I have a PDP 8/e in nice shape, and a few known > good RK05 drives, but no RK8E controller boardset. It gets tiring > running the machine off of paper take or RX01 floppies. =20 Youdo realise, I assupe, that an RK05 used with a PDP8 needs 16 sector packs, which are a lot harder to find than the 12 sector ones used with PDP11s. There are har dectored packs, the number of sectors is determined by the number of slits in a ring on the hub. Good luck if you want to try re-making that ;-) > > Anyone out there have one (or Plessey or other equivalents) that they > might be willing to sell? I have all of the cables needed, including > the paddle cards that plug into the Omnibus to connect up the drives, > just need the three board set in known operational condition. I am a little confused here... The I/O connecotrs on the RK05 are the normal DEC connector blocks, a dual-height slot, actualy, You interconnect multiple drives using Unibus cables amnd put na M930 terminator (original Unibus terminator) in the last drive. On a PDP8/e, the drives are not dirrectly connected ot the Omnibus backplane/ There's a cable consisting of 2 ribbon cables with BERG connecotrs at one end and a dual-height DEC board at the otther. The board plugs into the first drive, the BERGs plug into one of the boards o nthe RK8e. IIRC, there are actually several versions of that cables with different (if any) circuitry on the PCB, but I think it's possible to convert one to another. Is that the cable you have? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 27 14:30:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:30:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 26, 11 02:43:42 pm Message-ID: > > On 26 Jan 2011 at 18:56, Tony Duell wrote: > > > 'A computer must be programamble' is not the same thing as 'Any > > programmable device is a computer'. I would class a Jacquard loom as a > > programamble non-computational device. > > Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? Motorola didn't > term it as such (they called it an "Industrial Control Unit"), but I > submit that it can be made to calculate, is programmable, and so is a > computer. I can weasel my way out of that one by claiming that a chip -- on its own -- is never a computer. It needs power, possibly a clock signal, etc before it does anything. More seriously, from what you say, I think I would consider it a computer in some applications but maybe not in all. To give you another example, is a Z80-based machine a compouter? Well, jasut behind me is a TRS-80 Model 4 which uses the Z80 as its processor,. I think most, if not all, of us would call that a computer/ But next to it is an HP terminal that uses a Z80 as its controller. It is not user programamble, it can only ever runs the firmware. So I'd probably call that a terminal, not a computer, at least when I'm using it (when I am repairing it, of course, I have to know how the Z80 executes code, what the Z80 opcodes are, etc). -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jan 27 15:49:31 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:49:31 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: <1CCB72941D9440F08B4DB5E03BE1969A@massey.ac.nz> Hi Tony, No, the widget is the hard drive in the Lisa 2/10. You are thinking of the twiggy drives in the original Lisa 1. I only had the "working" IWD chip in for a moment, just to see if the system would pass it's internal checks hence prove mine was faulty. I didn't pay too much attention to the widget error itself (error 75 from memory..which means the machine thinks the system files are corrupt). Once I get my own IWD I'll resume the diagnostic process. The widget spins up and I can hear the "clunk" which releases the brake (a good sign). The floppy drive on the Lisa 2/10 couldn't boot my Lisa boot disk so that needs some attention also. Yes, I think you are right. From my reading it seems the IWD chip was used in the early Macs and the Apple IIGS. The part shouldn't be that uncommon then. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:40 AM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress >> However, the widget drive itself throws up an error. First things first >> though. I'll source a replacement IWM chip first, then worry about the >> widget drive. It might just need some exercise. > > Is this the same IWM that was used in the earlier Macs? That might be a > source of one. > > As for the drive, this is the strange 5.25" drive, isn't it? I would love > to see insdie one. Hwoever, my first comment is going to be that I > suspect an alignment disk for that is even harder to find than alignment > disks for standard drives, so whatrver you do, don't disturb the head > alignment! > > I don't think there are schematics of the Widget out there, so you may be > somwhat on your own. A drive typically consists of several subsystems -- > the spindle motore, the haed positoner (and track 0 sensor), the index > sensor, write protect sensor, etcm and the read/write chain. Apple may > well have oden without some of the sensors, though. > > Does the eror you get give any more information? Does thre drive try to > spin? Does it move the heads? > > -tony > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 27 16:22:54 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 14:22:54 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: from "Christian Corti" at Jan 27, 11 10:51:23 am, Message-ID: <4D417FBE.9556.1DEF8C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2011 at 20:46, Tony Duell wrote: > Although I use a printed OED a lot, I don't necessarily trust an > English dictionary for the precise techncial definition of a term. In > general, certianly the smaller versios of the OED define the word as > it's commonly used (which, to be fair, is what most people need to > know). I have hoever, often been pleasantly suprised by techncial > terms in the OED, the drfinitons are a lot more acurate than in some > other reference books. I use the OED to tell me how a word has been used, not necessarily for its definition (which can vary dramatically with time and location). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 27 16:26:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 14:26:16 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 26, 11 02:43:42 pm, Message-ID: <4D418088.13227.1E20E9D@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2011 at 20:30, Tony Duell wrote: > More seriously, from what you say, I think I would consider it a > computer in some applications but maybe not in all. To give you > another example, is a Z80-based machine a compouter? Well, jasut > behind me is a TRS-80 Model 4 which uses the Z80 as its processor,. I > think most, if not all, of us would call that a computer/ But next to > it is an HP terminal that uses a Z80 as its controller. It is not user > programamble, it can only ever runs the firmware. So I'd probably call > that a terminal, not a computer, at least when I'm using it (when I am > repairing it, of course, I have to know how the Z80 executes code, > what the Z80 opcodes are, etc). In fact, quite a number of "computers" (particularly microcontrollers) are used for non-computational (and often non- programmable) applications. (e.g. a simple timer). Does that mean that a thing being a "computer" must also be used in an application that requires it to act as such? Or is a computer independent of the application and must merely be "capable" (whatever that means) of being programmed? --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 27 16:29:24 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 14:29:24 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D41F1C4.8060609@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? Tony wrote: > More seriously, from what you say, I think I would consider it a computer > in some applications but maybe not in all. Note that the MC14500B did not contain a program counter. It was really just a one-bit ALU with a small amount of logic to interface to an external sequencer. That sequencer could simply be a binary counter, if you didn't need branching, or it could be something elaborate with a subroutine stack. The MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook gives an example using three Fairchild Macrologic CMOS 34706 control sequencer bit slices, which are conceptually similar to the Am2909/2911. (Motorola doesn't mention Fairchild by name, and it took me a while to figure out what they were, because at some point Fairchild changed the part number from 34706 to just 4706.) Eric From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 16:34:27 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 16:34:27 -0600 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D41F2F3.1010809@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> On 25 January 2011 20:18, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Folks, >>>> >>>> Picked up one of these wee beasts today at long last, Z80 CP/M and CP/N >>>> machine from ~1981, complete with not-oft-spotted hi-res colour PAL boar= >> ds >>> The H-res board is not that rare. The PAL enocder is, if you have that. >> Yup, the machine has a TV-out as well as the standard monitor. The PAL >> board is marked as such and has a colour modulator on it. > > Most of them have TV outputs, whether the PAL encoder is fitted or not. > > The standard configruation (at least for 40 column machines, the 80 > column video card is different, and I've never seen one), is that there's > a composite video output and a UHF TV output both fed from the text > system. If you add the hi-res card, the UHF output remains text-only, > the composite output carries text and hi-res suitably combined. There is > a header plug on the high-res board that carries the output of the CLUT > (8 bit), that's where the RGB board and I assume the PAL enocder are > connected. What I can't rememebr is if/how the text video output ends up > on those boards. Looking at photos of my system (physical hardware is in storage), it has 6 boards: 32K CPU/ROM/RAM, FDC/serial, 32K RAM, VDU #1 (keyboard, modulator, composite out, 1KB RAM), VDU #2 (composite out, 16KB RAM, 26-way header) Bus terminator ... plus an "RGB board" mounted on the back panel, which has RGBS BNC outputs and hooks to the 26-way header on VDU #2. VDU #1 and VDU #2 are connected together via 16-way DIL headers on the boards. I *think* what I've labelled as "VDU #1" is the standard 40-column board (1KB RAM isn't enough to do 80x25 text), and "VDU #2" is a hi-res board. From memory, there's not a lot on the little rear-panel RGB output board; just a few passives and transistors - I certainly don't remember it having a modulator, so I don't think my machine does hi-res PAL output (if it does it'd have to be via the UM1111 modulator on VDU #1) >>> Is this the 5.25" floppy version or the 8"? I thought the former normally >> 5.25". I've only ever heard talk of the 8" > > Ditto. Sadly, I've seen one at Bletchley in a very poor state, which I think had a black bezel around the drives. I do know of one other person who has an 8" setup in private hands; IIRC that has an aluminium bezel around the drives (although the case tops and sides are still "380Z black"). >> I should be able to get a Megger at work. The reason I mention the >> caps is because the last 3 or 4 machines I've had in have all blown >> the mains filters. > > Right.. Those are not the capacitors that most people replace without > testing on old machines... > > Yes, mains filters can and do blow. I've replaced a few -- well, > actually, most of the time I've replaced the capacitors only (seaprate > components on a PCB). If there's potted filter module, I guess you > replace the whole thing. Are we talking X/Y-class filters here, or primary smoothing caps just downstream of the bridge rectifier? I've had many ones of the former fail, but I can't think of a single machine I've worked on where I've needed to replace the latter. I've *seen* older equipment - 60s and early 70s - where they've been replaced, but it's not something I've had to do on the age of machine I normally work on. I seem to recall a small tantalum capacitor somewhere in the PSUs of one of the 380Zs that I've had letting go after a short while of use after being in storage - big bang and a lot of smoke. That's the only time I've had that happen to me, but it was a bit unnerving at the time :-) > A failed mains filter may blow the fuse, but I doubt it'll do any more > damage to anything. I wonder if it's worth put a light bulb in series > with the mains live wire (that's a real light bulb, of course, not one of > those CFL things) and powering up the filter/transfoemr with the > secondary windings of the latter disconnected? It should catch > catastrophic failures with no further damage. Yes... and if there's a chance of damp, it's probably worth stripping the whole system and checking for corroded connectors, IC legs etc. and then testing the PSU under a dummy load anyway. cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jan 27 16:34:27 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 14:34:27 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D41CD1B.9020501@neurotica.com> References: <4D3ECCC0.24761.101DE57@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 25, 11 01:14:40 pm, <4D40331E.30169.128ECB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4156B4.9050302@brouhaha.com> <4D41CD1B.9020501@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D41F2F3.7050400@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > How tough are those MC14500B chips to find these days? I'd love to mess with one. The only way I was able to get my hands on any was to buy some of the DS14500A demonstration systems (consisting of the DS14500B demonstration unit and DS14500C I/O simulator) on eBay. I think there are only eight flip-flops in the chip, with only a small amount of gating logic. I believe it might fit in a 22V10; there should be no problem fitting it into a larger CPLD. There an untested VHDL model on my web page: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/motorola/mc14500b/ Eric From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 27 16:55:42 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 17:55:42 -0500 Subject: Favor to ask .... Message-ID: <4D41F7EE.5020307@snarc.net> If anyone in the Silicon Valley area is going to Jane Smiley's lecture @ CHM tonight, and if you * AGREE * with my recent posts about ABC vs. ENIAC, then please e-mail me privately. I have a favor to ask. Thanks. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 27 17:54:57 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:54:57 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net> References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Jan 26, at 4:14 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> What do you mean by 'calculating'? Does this implky numerical >> computions only? > > My definition gets a tad awkward re: Colossus ... > >> How do you define the 'program' of an analugue computer? > > I was wondering the same thing. But I'm not losing sleep over it. :) Suppose we wish to solve the equation: z=xy+5 On a programmable analog computer, we program it by: - plugging a cable from A to B - plugging a cable from C to D - setting switch K to 5 On the ENIAC, we program it by: - plugging a cable from A to B - plugging a cable from C to D - setting switch K to 5 The difference is how the machine *executes* the program (.. just an implementation detail). So the analog computer solves it simultaneously rather than sequentially - is it any less a program? Would be interesting to look into when the word began being used with computing machinery. Was it used for the differential analysers?, the Analytical engine (in the period)?, what about early mechanical automatons? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jan 27 19:55:32 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:55:32 -0600 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net>, Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > Subject: Re: ENIAC .... > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 15:54:57 -0800 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On 2011 Jan 26, at 4:14 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > > >> What do you mean by 'calculating'? Does this implky numerical > >> computions only? > > > > My definition gets a tad awkward re: Colossus ... > > > >> How do you define the 'program' of an analugue computer? > > > > I was wondering the same thing. But I'm not losing sleep over it. :) > > Suppose we wish to solve the equation: z=xy+5 > > On a programmable analog computer, we program it by: > - plugging a cable from A to B > - plugging a cable from C to D > - setting switch K to 5 > > On the ENIAC, we program it by: > - plugging a cable from A to B > - plugging a cable from C to D > - setting switch K to 5 > > The difference is how the machine *executes* the program (.. just an > implementation detail). > > So the analog computer solves it simultaneously rather than > sequentially - is it any less a program? > > Would be interesting to look into when the word began being used with > computing machinery. Was it used for the differential analysers?, the > Analytical engine (in the period)?, what about early mechanical > automatons? > The Antikithera astronomical calculator 2K years ago, but there are probably calculating and computing machines even before that. A control system to regulate water for irrigation comes to mind, with a flow/level measurement and balance to regulate water diversion into ditches. That probably goes back 500 - 1K years earlier. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 20:30:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:30:50 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net> Message-ID: > A control system to regulate water for irrigation comes to mind, with a flow/level measurement and balance to regulate water diversion into ditches. ?That probably goes back 500 - 1K years earlier. Well, you could say a caveman with a fire is also a feedback control system - Og is cold, so he adds more wood. Og is warm, so he relaxes. History is just one big grey area. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 27 20:53:50 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:53:50 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D422FBE.2050905@snarc.net> > you could say a caveman with a fire is also a feedback control system - Og is cold, so he adds more wood. Og is warm, so he relaxes. Possibly the funniest cctalk post I've ever read! :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 27 20:56:18 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 18:56:18 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net>, Message-ID: <16a40eb9f44c9cffe171cb16a002fd8d@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 27, at 5:55 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: >> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >> On 2011 Jan 26, at 4:14 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> >>>> ... >>>> How do you define the 'program' of an analugue computer? >>> >>> I was wondering the same thing. But I'm not losing sleep over it. >>> :) >> >> Suppose we wish to solve the equation: z=xy+5 >> >> On a programmable analog computer, we program it by: >> - plugging a cable from A to B >> - plugging a cable from C to D >> - setting switch K to 5 >> >> On the ENIAC, we program it by: >> - plugging a cable from A to B >> - plugging a cable from C to D >> - setting switch K to 5 >> >> The difference is how the machine *executes* the program (.. just an >> implementation detail). >> >> So the analog computer solves it simultaneously rather than >> sequentially - is it any less a program? >> >> Would be interesting to look into when the word began being used with >> computing machinery. Was it used for the differential analysers?, the >> Analytical engine (in the period)?, what about early mechanical >> automatons? >> > > The Antikithera astronomical calculator 2K years ago, but there are > probably calculating and computing machines even before that. > > A control system to regulate water for irrigation comes to mind, with > a flow/level measurement and balance to regulate water diversion into > ditches. That probably goes back 500 - 1K years earlier. > I guess my phrasing was a little ambiguous, I was trying to ask (poorly) when the word "program" was first applied to computing machinery, e.g. Did Charles and Ada use the word when talking about the Analytical engine? Did Vannevar Bush use the word when talking about setting up the Differential Analyser? ... From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 27 21:03:40 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 22:03:40 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <16a40eb9f44c9cffe171cb16a002fd8d@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net>, <16a40eb9f44c9cffe171cb16a002fd8d@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D42320C.7020206@snarc.net> >> I guess my phrasing was a little ambiguous, I was trying to ask >> (poorly) when the word "program" was first applied to computing machinery http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/freesrchabstract.jsp?navigation=no&arnumber=476561 From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jan 27 21:25:24 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:25:24 -0600 Subject: Computers & Chess Message-ID: A local museum wants me to see if an exhibit can be put together pertaining to Computers in Chess. We wouldn't be looking for just "a row of microcomputers playing chess", we'd be looking for items of historical significance, firsts, etc. That being said, we need items of interest to novices as well as experts. The duration of the exhibit would be somewhere between 3 and 6 months, definitely not a permanent exhibit. The museum would of course pay for professional shipping of items and insurance. The floor space available for the exhibit could be up to 4000 sq/ft if need be. Anyone have parts of Deep Blue? ;) Would any listmembers have items of significance/interest to Computers in Chess, and be willing to loan them to the museum for this exhibit? If so, please email me off-list and if we can use it, I'll send you a copy of the museum's facility report (which details security, environmental controls, professional handling, etc.). I'd also appreciate any ideas/pointers for exhibits or places to check for items of interest. Thanks in advance! Jay From leaknoil at gmail.com Thu Jan 27 21:26:43 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:26:43 -0800 Subject: IBM Centennial Film In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D423773.3020609@gmail.com> Its a big long commercial but, some may get a kick out of it here. They quickly skip over WW2 of course. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jtNUGgmd4 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 27 21:28:28 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 19:28:28 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D42320C.7020206@snarc.net> References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net>, <16a40eb9f44c9cffe171cb16a002fd8d@cs.ubc.ca> <4D42320C.7020206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <7eae28dae625a27beec7b210397bceb0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 27, at 7:03 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> I guess my phrasing was a little ambiguous, I was trying to ask >>> (poorly) when the word "program" was first applied to computing >>> machinery > > http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/search/freesrchabstract.jsp? > navigation=no&arnumber=476561 That's nice, unfortunately the meat of it is behind the ieee access walls. As the abstract says: "in the context of the ENIAC". That does not preclude its use prior. There were programmable calculating machines before the ENIAC. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Jan 27 22:10:50 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:10:50 +1300 Subject: English definitions (was ENIAC..) References: <4D40B8E8.903@snarc.net> Message-ID: <3CDD39A7A3AF4B98AF90371E18565028@massey.ac.nz> I've been observing the discussion on the definition of "computer" and other computer related words over the last few days/weeks. I've been involved in forums for a number of years now and the most heated arguments seem to take place regarding the definitions of particular words. Often they go along the lines of who invented the first (widget/technique/concept) then evolve into vigourous debates as to the precise definition of the said widget/technique/concept etc. I'm all for precise definitions. You need them for clarity of communication. But the English language itself and the way it evolves is a problem here. It can lead to an unavoidable fuzziness and drifting of definitions over time. In my opinion it's hard (and in some cases pointless) to be too pedantic about these things. The meaning of terms do drift. Unlike French, there is no "authorised" version of English. The various dictionaries we use do not actually define words but rather just reflect their common usage and meanings at the time of publication. This is both the strength of English (it's adaptable and dynamic) and it's weakness (it can be ambiguous). Anyway, just my two cents worth. I never lose much sleep over the percieved sloppiness of a definition unless it's clearly out of that grey area that seems to surround them all. Terry (Tez) From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jan 27 22:28:50 2011 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:28:50 -0800 Subject: Need RK8E Controller [Was: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 In-Reply-To: References: from"Rick Bensene" at Jan 26, 11 02:25:30 pm Message-ID: Tony (understandably so) wrote that he was confused by my statement about paddle boards for the RK8E. Sorry for the confusion. I was mentally confusing the RK controller for the Unibus PDP 11 with the RK8E. I do have the correct cables for the RK8E/RK05. I also have a ton (OK, maybe tens of pounds) of 16-sector packs for the RK05/RK8E. Rick Bensene From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 27 22:49:08 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 20:49:08 -0800 Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0356e29a624a72f96157811a973af748@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 27, at 7:25 PM, Jay West wrote: > A local museum wants me to see if an exhibit can be put together > pertaining to Computers in Chess. > > We wouldn't be looking for just "a row of microcomputers playing > chess", we'd be looking for items of historical significance, firsts, > etc. That being said, we need items of interest to novices as well as > experts. > > The duration of the exhibit would be somewhere between 3 and 6 months, > definitely not a permanent exhibit. The museum would of course pay for > professional shipping of items and insurance. The floor space > available for the exhibit could be up to 4000 sq/ft if need be. Anyone > have parts of Deep Blue? ;) > > Would any listmembers have items of significance/interest to Computers > in Chess, and be willing to loan them to the museum for this exhibit? > If so, please email me off-list and if we can use it, I'll send you a > copy of the museum's facility report (which details security, > environmental controls, professional handling, etc.). > > I'd also appreciate any ideas/pointers for exhibits or places to check > for items of interest. Reminded me of the 1960s Time-Life book "Mathematics" from my childhood, which has a nice colour photo of two guys at an IBM 704 console with a chessboard and printout of positions, and thought it might make a nice display photo. But I imagine you already know, as it is well-remembered: Alex Bernstein / IBM 704 / computer chess program / 1957 http://chessprogramming.wikispaces.com/IBM+704 And apprarently there is film: http://chessforallages.blogspot.com/2009/03/chess-on-ibm-704-1958.html http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/102645434 CHM has a whole "Computer Chess" collection. Even neater: paper by Shannon / 1949: http://www.pi.infn.it/%7Ecarosi/chess/shannon.txt From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 27 23:15:29 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:15:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: from Jay West at "Jan 27, 11 09:25:24 pm" Message-ID: <201101280515.p0S5FThu018416@floodgap.com> > We wouldn't be looking for just "a row of microcomputers playing chess", > we'd be looking for items of historical significance, firsts, etc. That > being said, we need items of interest to novices as well as experts. I bet a Commodore KIM-1 playing MicroChess would be an eye-catcher (assuming you couldn't get a Commodore Chessmate). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I am an unmitigated Macintosh bigot. So there. ----------------------------- From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 27 23:25:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:25:10 -0800 Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: <201101280515.p0S5FThu018416@floodgap.com> References: from Jay West at "Jan 27, 11 09:25:24 pm", <201101280515.p0S5FThu018416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D41E2B6.11745.3619144@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2011 at 21:15, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I bet a Commodore KIM-1 playing MicroChess would be an eye-catcher > (assuming you couldn't get a Commodore Chessmate). ...not as much of an eyecatcher as a CDC 6600 playing Chess 3.0! --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 27 23:35:10 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:35:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: <4D41E2B6.11745.3619144@cclist.sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis at "Jan 27, 11 09:25:10 pm" Message-ID: <201101280535.p0S5ZAOg020726@floodgap.com> > > I bet a Commodore KIM-1 playing MicroChess would be an eye-catcher > > (assuming you couldn't get a Commodore Chessmate). > > ...not as much of an eyecatcher as a CDC 6600 playing Chess 3.0! Now, now, no winning arguments by volume! (In this case, the cubic variety.) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Prostitutes Appeal to Pope ---------------------------------- From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Jan 27 23:37:58 2011 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:37:58 -0800 Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02c501cbbead$86efc030$94cf4090$@com> As Brent mentioned the CHM has a whole Chess exhibit up now. This is just a guess, but I suspect they will be rotating that out now that Revolution is up and running. Perhaps a museum to museum loan? They DO have Deep Blue and a holy host of other Chess stuff. Just a thought... -- ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Computers & Chess A local museum wants me to see if an exhibit can be put together pertaining to Computers in Chess. We wouldn't be looking for just "a row of microcomputers playing chess", we'd be looking for items of historical significance, firsts, etc. That being said, we need items of interest to novices as well as experts. The duration of the exhibit would be somewhere between 3 and 6 months, definitely not a permanent exhibit. The museum would of course pay for professional shipping of items and insurance. The floor space available for the exhibit could be up to 4000 sq/ft if need be. Anyone have parts of Deep Blue? ;) Would any listmembers have items of significance/interest to Computers in Chess, and be willing to loan them to the museum for this exhibit? If so, please email me off-list and if we can use it, I'll send you a copy of the museum's facility report (which details security, environmental controls, professional handling, etc.). I'd also appreciate any ideas/pointers for exhibits or places to check for items of interest. Thanks in advance! Jay From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 28 00:29:31 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 22:29:31 -0800 Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: <201101280515.p0S5FThu018416@floodgap.com> References: <201101280515.p0S5FThu018416@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D42624B.7030200@mail.msu.edu> On 1/27/2011 9:15 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> We wouldn't be looking for just "a row of microcomputers playing chess", >> we'd be looking for items of historical significance, firsts, etc. That >> being said, we need items of interest to novices as well as experts. > I bet a Commodore KIM-1 playing MicroChess would be an eye-catcher (assuming > you couldn't get a Commodore Chessmate). > I've always been pretty impressed with the 1979 Atari VCS "Video Chess" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Chess). A fairly capable chess opponent (even if it does cheat at higher skill levels :)) written in 4K rom, with access to only 128 bytes of RAM. Not sure if it's a great museum exhibit, but it's pretty easy to track down & set up... - Josh From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 28 01:00:09 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 23:00:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: <4D42624B.7030200@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Jan 27, 11 10:29:31 pm" Message-ID: <201101280700.p0S709rs015184@floodgap.com> > > I bet a Commodore KIM-1 playing MicroChess would be an eye-catcher (assuming > > you couldn't get a Commodore Chessmate). > > I've always been pretty impressed with the 1979 Atari VCS "Video Chess" > (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Chess). A fairly capable chess > opponent (even if it does cheat at higher skill levels :)) written in 4K > rom, with access to only 128 bytes of RAM. Not sure if it's a great > museum exhibit, but it's pretty easy to track down & set up... Oh, that *is* a neat little game as well. My favourite "not sure why but it's neat" cart on the VCS, though, is BASIC Programming. Neat. Not practical, but neat. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You told me to get a life. May I take yours? -- "Scream V" ----------------- From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 02:49:27 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 06:49:27 -0200 Subject: Computers & Chess References: <201101280515.p0S5FThu018416@floodgap.com> <4D42624B.7030200@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <82212F38236541A39F9D9DA4D57B08AD@portajara> > opponent (even if it does cheat at higher skill levels :)) written in 4K How does it cheat? Impossible movings? :) From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 28 08:01:04 2011 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:01:04 -0600 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> While I generally prefer the real McCoy to an eBook reader, it dawned on me this morning (ok maybe I'm slow) that something like the Amazon Kindle might be a good way to store/view the collection of documents on bitsavers? So, with this in mind, here are some questions (please forgive me if simple research would answer any of these - I guess I'm really just trying to start a discussion about this): - how much of the archive would fit onto one of these devices? - is there an easy way to load/shuffle these documents onto the device? - are the documents in a format which is presentable on these devices? - can large foldout schematics and such be viewed on these devices? - how much of an advantage would one of these devices hold over a laptop? --tom From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Jan 28 08:34:57 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:34:57 -0600 (CST) Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, Tom Uban wrote: > While I generally prefer the real McCoy to an eBook reader, it dawned > on me this morning (ok maybe I'm slow) that something like the Amazon > Kindle might be a good way to store/view the collection of documents on > bitsavers? So, with this in mind, here are some questions (please forgive > me if simple research would answer any of these - I guess I'm really just > trying to start a discussion about this): > > - how much of the archive would fit onto one of these devices? > - is there an easy way to load/shuffle these documents onto the device? > - are the documents in a format which is presentable on these devices? > - can large foldout schematics and such be viewed on these devices? > - how much of an advantage would one of these devices hold over a laptop? Hey Tom; I received a Kindle for Christmas and have been hitting up against the same sorts of things. I refuse to purchase books from Amazon through this thing (why pay $5 less for a book you could physically own that they can't "take back"?), so reading manuals is pretty much all I've done with it. Mine (a standard current-gen Kindle) has 4G of space. I don't know how big the full archive is, but I'm guessing somewhat larger than 4G ;) The Kindle has a mini-USB port which is used to charge it. When you plug it into a host, however, it will appear as a regular storage device. Amazon has its own file format that they like to use with the Kindle. However it will read standard PDFs after you drop them onto it. I've yet to find one it can't read. You _can_ eMail your PDFs to various Amazon addresses and it will automatically convert it to their proprietary format. One address will WiFi/3G it direct onto your device "magically" fopr a fee, the other will eMail it back to you, and you have to manually copy it over to the device (no charge). The device will automatically scale the image to fit, but you can zoom in. The standard Kindle screen is a tad small, the larger "DX" Kindle has a 9.7" screen which I imagine would make viewing these sorts of things much, much easier. But it's $120 more. I'm thoroughly enjoying the portability of packing manuals onto it. I've come across two detractors which has made me wishy-washy over the future of using it - firstly, with the standard Kindle, the screen is just too damned small. My eyesight isn't so hot, so having to hover my nose three inches above it is getting annoying (especially when you're trying to read the labels on pins, or worse, from an old scanned manual). The other is that it just isn't as nice to flip around as a physical book. The Kindle has a 'bookmarking' system, but when you want to jump ahead or back between pages, you find yourself memorising the number of page-clicks to get there, because using the bookmarks is kind of clumsy (something I find is often easier with a laptop because most PDF readers provide a 'thumbnail' view of all the pages that you can more easily flick between... if they're in relative proximity). So. For what it's worth, I think it's a great little device, the screen quality (eInk) is really quite stunning, and it is feather-light. But sometimes I wish I had the real thing ;) (Two month owner) - JP From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 28 08:48:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 06:48:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, JP Hindin wrote: > Hey Tom; > > I received a Kindle for Christmas and have been hitting up against the > same sorts of things. I refuse to purchase books from Amazon through this > thing (why pay $5 less for a book you could physically own that they can't > "take back"?), so reading manuals is pretty much all I've done with it. > Head over to the Baen books website (http://www.webscription.net if memory serves). You can buy a "month" of books for $15 (typically 5 books), no DRM and they offer (among many) the Mobi book format that the Kindle will read. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 09:01:37 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:01:37 -0800 Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi I'd think the Sargon book would be desired. Dwight > From: jwest at classiccmp.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Computers & Chess > Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 21:25:24 -0600 > > A local museum wants me to see if an exhibit can be put together pertaining to Computers in Chess. > > We wouldn't be looking for just "a row of microcomputers playing chess", we'd be looking for items of historical significance, firsts, etc. That being said, we need items of interest to novices as well as experts. > > The duration of the exhibit would be somewhere between 3 and 6 months, definitely not a permanent exhibit. The museum would of course pay for professional shipping of items and insurance. The floor space available for the exhibit could be up to 4000 sq/ft if need be. Anyone have parts of Deep Blue? ;) > > Would any listmembers have items of significance/interest to Computers in Chess, and be willing to loan them to the museum for this exhibit? If so, please email me off-list and if we can use it, I'll send you a copy of the museum's facility report (which details security, environmental controls, professional handling, etc.). > > I'd also appreciate any ideas/pointers for exhibits or places to check for items of interest. > > Thanks in advance! > > Jay > From rivie at ridgenet.net Fri Jan 28 09:50:18 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 07:50:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 28 Jan 2011, JP Hindin wrote: > The device will automatically scale the image to fit, but you can zoom in. One problem I've had with PDFs on the Kindle is that when it zooms it tends to go for the width of the document. Sometimes the last line or two of text get zoomed off the screen, with no indication that it's done so. There is another PDF-reading mode that involves panning a window around the document. In that mode, you can find the bits lost during the zoom, but it's kind of annoying. For your own documents or things for which you have text, it's possible to find software to convert the file into the .MOBI text format understood natively by the Kindle (a book you buy from Amazon is, as I understand it, a .MOBI that's been encrypted with your Kindle's serial number). I've been using Calibre when I go that route. I've had good luck making .MOBIs with Calibre, but the .MOBI format doesn't seem to handle combining Unicode diacritical marks (well, at least Calibre's .MOBI reader doesn't; I haven't actully pushed one down to the Kindle to look at it, although I have seen the Kindle botch diacritics in book titles and author names), so I still have to go the .PDF route when I need those. I've had the best luck making .PDFs for the Kindle on a 3x4 page, but even then I run into cases where a line gets lost on the bottom if there are a lot of long words leaving the right margin especially ragged. I guess I need to find a word processor that does a better job of hyphenating things... I find that my Kindle either crashes or I have to reset it about once a month. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 09:52:49 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:52:49 -0500 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 09:01, Tom Uban wrote: > - are the documents in a format which is presentable on these devices? I have a 6-inch Kindle; while it does read PDFs well, the small screen makes reading standard Letter sized documents a bit of a hassle to read. Either it's eye-killingly small or you have to scroll all over the place. I don't know if any of the documents on Bitsavers are in a format that can be easily converted, but any document that is fairly simple HTML with inline pictures can easily be converted using various tools (Calibre) into .mobi, which the Kindle accepts natively, and you can read it as any e-book with your preference of font, orientation, etc etc. For my own documents, I have played a little with reformatting my LaTeX documents to generate PDFs with smaller page size (ebooks do not display math as far as I can tell). > - can large foldout schematics and such be viewed on these devices? ISTR that decoding a large page in a PDF can be quite slow and slow to scroll, too. I think (non-e) paper still wins on this one. > - how much of an advantage would one of these devices hold over a laptop? The kindle can be propped up against something on your workbench and not take up space for a keyboard. But the small screen is a challenge. The DX is one solution. Maybe the various pads will be better for these tasks; faster cpus and touchscreens will help. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 10:33:13 2011 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:33:13 -0500 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: I've also got a Kindle for Christmas. I haven't bought any books for it, I just download free/public domain ones and transfer via USB. I use Calibre for ebook management - it converts between formats pretty well, so if PDF isn't working so well for viewing you can convert it to a MOBI or whatever. If the PDF is just a bunch of images, you could try converting them all to TIFFs and viewing them that way - might work a bit better/faster. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 28 10:39:17 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 08:39:17 -0800 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com>, Message-ID: Instead of going the Kindle route, I purchased a 7" Android tablet through Merimobiles (mine is a "generation" old, but the closest comparison is at http://www.merimobiles.com/Moonse_APAD_E7001_Aluminium_Version_APP_Market_p/meri0396.htm). It bears some of the limitations of the Kindle: small screen, relatively slow rendering. But it does include a micro-SD slot, which makes it easier to have a lot of content. The app Documents To Go (it's $5 or $10, and definitely worth it) includes a pretty good PDF reader - it hasn't choked on anything I've offered it, including scanned papers and large PDF engineering drawings. (It reads *and writes* MS-Office docs, too.) It does have a touchscreen, making panning easier. It does WiFi, but not Bluetooth. And it's $145. There is a site (www.slatedroid.com) that supports a vibrant community around these things, including a guy (Roger Braun) who creates new flash images for them. I upgraded mine with one of his images and it was not only easier to use (the stock image contains several apps in Chinese, that did me no good) but it seems faster. There is an app store, although one caveat: the device I bought is Android 1.6, and some newer apps just won't run on it (but they don't appear in its app store, either.) USB will either support an external device such as a keyboard or mount the device as a USB function-based storage device on your desktop/laptop, making it dead easy to get things on and off the device. Did I mention the screen is color! While I think the eInk is well done and nice to look at, it's a plus to have the color screen, especially when I'm reading the Sunday paper and get to the comics. (I don't buy the newspaper anymore - there's an app for that.) I am not associated with Merimobiles other than as a satisfied customer -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Joachim Thiemann [joachim.thiemann at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 7:52 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Kindle and bitsavers? On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 09:01, Tom Uban wrote: > - are the documents in a format which is presentable on these devices? I have a 6-inch Kindle; while it does read PDFs well, the small screen makes reading standard Letter sized documents a bit of a hassle to read. Either it's eye-killingly small or you have to scroll all over the place. I don't know if any of the documents on Bitsavers are in a format that can be easily converted, but any document that is fairly simple HTML with inline pictures can easily be converted using various tools (Calibre) into .mobi, which the Kindle accepts natively, and you can read it as any e-book with your preference of font, orientation, etc etc. For my own documents, I have played a little with reformatting my LaTeX documents to generate PDFs with smaller page size (ebooks do not display math as far as I can tell). > - can large foldout schematics and such be viewed on these devices? ISTR that decoding a large page in a PDF can be quite slow and slow to scroll, too. I think (non-e) paper still wins on this one. > - how much of an advantage would one of these devices hold over a laptop? The kindle can be propped up against something on your workbench and not take up space for a keyboard. But the small screen is a challenge. The DX is one solution. Maybe the various pads will be better for these tasks; faster cpus and touchscreens will help. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 28 11:22:34 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:22:34 -0500 Subject: No subject Message-ID: > how much of the archive would fit onto one of these devices? Bitsavers is well over 120 Gbytes last time I checked, most of it PDF's. Depending on generation of Kindle you get 1.4 to 4 Gbytes of user storage. Last time I made a DVD-R set of bitsavers content it filled circa 28 DVD's. Tim. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Jan 28 11:34:16 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:34:16 -0500 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers Message-ID: > how much of the archive would fit onto one of these devices? Bitsavers is well over 120 Gbytes last time I checked, most of it PDF's. Depending on generation of Kindle you get 1.4 to 3.3 Gbytes of user storage. Last time I made a DVD-R set of bitsavers content it filled circa 28 DVD's. > how much of an advantage would one of these devices hold over a laptop? The Kindle screen is smaller than most laptops but the portrait orientation is a better match to typical printed text than a laptop's landscape orientation so the screen real estate is way better utilized. Kindle displays by do not include ornamentation and all that other crap around the edge of the window and that's a true win for screen real estate usage too. I can't believe it's 2011 and most typical laptop and desktop display usage is devoted to crap like borders and icons and buttons. Toolbars are the crappiest idea in the world. When I see someone who has installed so many toolbars in their browser that half of the screen is taken up with them I just want to scream. Pixels per inch on the kindle is on the high end of current consumer displays but the same is true for many laptop displays too. Power consumption is way lower on the kindle. ("digital paper" vs LCD technology) Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 11:46:28 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:46:28 -0500 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 09:01, Tom Uban wrote: >> - are the documents in a format which is presentable on these devices? > > I have a 6-inch Kindle; while it does read PDFs well, the small screen > makes reading standard Letter sized documents a bit of a hassle to > read. Either it's eye-killingly small or you have to scroll all over > the place. I have that problem with letter-sized scans on my 7" Android tablet - I'm trying to read Byte magazines, and the 800x480 resolution just can't render the text legibly in full-page mode. It's a bit better with half-pages in landscape orientation, but for page-at-a-time, I can only really read headline text and the banners on advertisements. Of course I can zoom in, but then I'm scrolling all over the page to read columnar text the articles are set in, and the little 750MHz ARM processor is not swift at manipulating 80MB-300MB PDFs. I'm sure it would do a much better job at rendering its own text from OCRed material or from clean (non-bitmapped) textual PDFs. > ISTR that decoding a large page in a PDF can be quite slow and slow to > scroll, too. ?I think (non-e) paper still wins on this one. It's not just the ePaper - I have slow decodes and scrolling on an LCD attached to a "mobile" processor. > Maybe the various pads will be > better for these tasks; faster cpus and touchscreens will help. Perhaps an iPad has enough horsepower and real estate and resolution, but a cheap (sub-$200) Android tablet is not quite good enough, unfortunately. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 11:53:42 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 12:53:42 -0500 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Ian King wrote: > Instead of going the Kindle route, I purchased a 7" Android tablet through Merimobiles (mine is a "generation" old, but the closest comparison is at http://www.merimobiles.com/Moonse_APAD_E7001_Aluminium_Version_APP_Market_p/meri0396.htm). Based on Ian's experiences and recommendation, I purchased a successor product from Merimobiles (a Haipad M701R, about $25 more than the E7001, faster CPU, Android 2.1, double the RAM, HDMI out, IR remote control for the media player...) >?It bears some of the limitations of the Kindle: small screen, relatively slow rendering. ?But it does include a micro-SD slot, which makes it easier to have a lot of content. The micro-SD slot is a very nice feature. I've got 8GB dropped into mine (came with the tablet for free as a promotional) > ?The app Documents To Go (it's $5 or $10, and definitely worth it) includes a pretty good PDF reader - it hasn't choked on anything I've offered it, including scanned papers and large PDF engineering drawings. ?(It reads *and writes* MS-Office docs, too.) I haven't tried that PDF reader - I'm using the free one from Adobe. I'm also using it to view *large* PDFs with mixed results. >?It does have a touchscreen, making panning easier. ?It does WiFi, but not Bluetooth. ?And it's $145. Mine was $169 plus postage from Shanghai. > Did I mention the screen is color! ?While I think the eInk is well done and nice to look at, it's a plus to have the color screen, especially when I'm reading the Sunday paper and get to the comics. ?(I don't buy the newspaper anymore - there's an app for that.) I'm still interested in ePaper as a technology, but the E702R is a full-on tablet computer, not "merely" an eBook reader, so it naturally has an LCD screen, and that means color (whether I wanted it or not). > I am not associated with Merimobiles other than as a satisfied customer -- Ian Ditto. My issues are with the limitations of an inexpensive device. I am satisfied with my experiences with Merimobiles. -ethan From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 12:34:17 2011 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:34:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <152808.13358.qm@web114602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> All of my relatives have gone with Nooks rather than Kindles for themselves and their children, primary reasons being that the Nook supports the ePub open ebook format and Barnes and Noble ebooks are cheaper than Amazon's. Less important is the capacitive touchscreen. Early firmware for the Nook had issues, new versions are fine. This is what they tell me anyway since I don't own one myself nor have I paid much attention to ebooks. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Jan 28 12:40:13 2011 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:40:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? Message-ID: <709627.77767.qm@web114617.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Did a little research myself and it appears that the Nook has a micro-SD slot whereas the latest Kindles no longer have SD slots. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 28 12:49:38 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 10:49:38 -0800 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: <152808.13358.qm@web114602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: , <152808.13358.qm@web114602.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D429F42.3162.761A50@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2011 at 10:34, William Blair wrote: > All of my relatives have gone with Nooks rather than Kindles for > themselves and their children, primary reasons being that the Nook > supports the ePub open ebook format and Barnes and Noble ebooks are > cheaper than Amazon's. Less important is the capacitive touchscreen. > Early firmware for the Nook had issues, new versions are fine. This > is what they tell me anyway since I don't own one myself nor have I > paid much attention to ebooks. With my failing eyesight, I can't imagine trying to read something that was printed on A4 or 8.5x11 paper on a 6-inch (is that diagonal measurement?) screen. For me, it'd be like reading the micrographic edition of the OED without a magnifier. --Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jan 28 13:27:47 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 11:27:47 -0800 Subject: Computers & Chess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Jay West Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:25 PM > A local museum wants me to see if an exhibit can be put together > pertaining to Computers in Chess. [snip] > I'd also appreciate any ideas/pointers for exhibits or places to check > for items of interest. There is a chess program for the PDP-10 available in the DECUS archives which is a linear descendant[1] of Richard Greenblatt's MACHACK, the first chess program to obtain a USCF/FIDE Master rating. Access to appropriate hardware can be arranged if desired. [1] The late Richard Gruen translated the MIT version to a Tops-10 variant which was later moved to TOPS-20. The DECUS library has both versions. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Jan 28 13:53:28 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:53:28 +0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: <4D41F2F3.1010809@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 27/01/2011 22:34, "Jules Richardson" wrote: > Looking at photos of my system (physical hardware is in storage), it has 6 > boards: > > 32K CPU/ROM/RAM, > FDC/serial, > 32K RAM, > VDU #1 (keyboard, modulator, composite out, 1KB RAM), > VDU #2 (composite out, 16KB RAM, 26-way header) > Bus terminator Obviously the order isn't that important. Mine is (R to L): 32K cpu/rom/ram VDU #1 32K RAM VDU #2 FDC/serial Colour PAL board - modulator goes to TV out and composite plugs into this too instead of VDU #1 > ... plus an "RGB board" mounted on the back panel, which has RGBS BNC outputs > and hooks to the 26-way header on VDU #2. VDU #1 and VDU #2 are connected > together via 16-way DIL headers on the boards. I don't have that. >>> I should be able to get a Megger at work. The reason I mention the >>> caps is because the last 3 or 4 machines I've had in have all blown >>> the mains filters. >> >> Right.. Those are not the capacitors that most people replace without >> testing on old machines... And this machine doesn't have them anyway, it's a brick transformer. > I seem to recall a small tantalum capacitor somewhere in the PSUs of one of > the 380Zs that I've had letting go after a short while of use after being in > storage - big bang and a lot of smoke. That's the only time I've had that > happen to me, but it was a bit unnerving at the time :-) There's a few tantalum caps in there. I had one blow on me in my Sharp MZ80K, THAT was a fright :) > Yes... and if there's a chance of damp, it's probably worth stripping the > whole system and checking for corroded connectors, IC legs etc. and then > testing the PSU under a dummy load anyway. Done all that, the boards are in great condition as is the PSU internals. Problem is the glass fuse has blown and I don't have a spare at home, bah. It needs 250V/1A and all I have easy access to are PETs which are 250V/.75A. Hey ho, I'll get some at work on Monday :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:15:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:15:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D418088.13227.1E20E9D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 27, 11 02:26:16 pm Message-ID: > > More seriously, from what you say, I think I would consider it a > > computer in some applications but maybe not in all. To give you > > another example, is a Z80-based machine a compouter? Well, jasut > > behind me is a TRS-80 Model 4 which uses the Z80 as its processor,. I > > think most, if not all, of us would call that a computer/ But next to > > it is an HP terminal that uses a Z80 as its controller. It is not user > > programamble, it can only ever runs the firmware. So I'd probably call > > that a terminal, not a computer, at least when I'm using it (when I am > > repairing it, of course, I have to know how the Z80 executes code, > > what the Z80 opcodes are, etc). > > In fact, quite a number of "computers" (particularly > microcontrollers) are used for non-computational (and often non- > programmable) applications. (e.g. a simple timer). Indeed. And I am not sure those should be called 'computers'. Is an IBM PC keyboard a 'computer' (ther's an 8048 microcontrolelr inside)? Is the dot matrix printer next to me a 'computer' (it's got a pair of Z8s and a Z80 in it). And so on. I think that to some extent whether I consider something as a computer depends on what I am doing with it. If I am printing something out, I don't think of said Sanders 700 printer as a computer. When it doesn't print properly, and I have to conenct a logic analyser to it, then of course I debug it as any other microprocessor system, and I then start to think of it as a computer. Even less clear examples that I can see from where I am sitting are the Apple Laserwriter II and the Commodere 8250LP. Most people, myself included, call those a 'printer' and a 'disk drive'. But both contain microprocessors and both can run user programs (the formerm of course, includes a Postscript interpretter, the latter has commands to read and write the intenral RAM memory and execute from a given location). They miught be computers.... I think it comse back to soemthing I said a few days ago. Some things are classed by just about everybody who knows what they are as 'computers' (e.g. my PFP8/e). Some things are clearly not computers by any reasoanble defintiion (e.g the Exakta Varex camera in front of me). Some things might be computers or not depending on the exact defition you use (ENIAC, Colossus) or how you are regarding them at the time (an embedded microproccessor control system, many printers, etc). This does not mean the word 'computer' is useless. It just means that claims of the 'first computer' need to be interpretted with care. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:18:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:18:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D41F1C4.8060609@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 27, 11 02:29:24 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck wrote: > > Would you consider the MC14500 to be a "computer"? > > Tony wrote: > > More seriously, from what you say, I think I would consider it a computer > > in some applications but maybe not in all. > > Note that the MC14500B did not contain a program counter. It was really > just a one-bit ALU with a small amount of logic to interface to an > external sequencer. That sequencer could simply be a binary counter, if I don;t think I would consider the 14500 on its own as a 'computer'. But I don't see why a computer can't be built using one or more of them. FWIW, I don't think the Z80 (replace with your vavourit MPU) is a computer. But it can certaiuly be used as the processor in something I would call a computer. > you didn't need branching, or it could be something elaborate with a > subroutine stack. The MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook gives Is this book on-line anywhere? I've not checked the obvious places, so if it's on bitsavers or datasheetarchive or similar, don't flame too hard ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:03:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:03:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <1CCB72941D9440F08B4DB5E03BE1969A@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Jan 28, 11 10:49:31 am Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > No, the widget is the hard drive in the Lisa 2/10. You are thinking of the > twiggy drives in the original Lisa 1. Oh yes, of course. I've never actually seen a Lisa. let alone been inside one -- and that is not likely to change. I seem to remember that the Widget schematics are out there, if you need them. I also seem to remember a few custom devices in that drive :-(. > > I only had the "working" IWD chip in for a moment, just to see if the system > would pass it's internal checks hence prove mine was faulty. I didn't pay > too much attention to the widget error itself (error 75 from memory..which > means the machine thinks the system files are corrupt). Once I get my own > IWD I'll resume the diagnostic process. It may be nothing more htan a corrupted disk, of course. Or it may be a problem wit hthe drive. Was the HDA a 'stadnard' one for the time? Surely Apple didn't make that themselves. Was it, for example, the HDA from an ST412 or something. > > The widget spins up and I can hear the "clunk" which releases the brake (a > good sign). Does it try to move the heads? This drive probably uses a stepper motor postioner, and often there's a metal 'flag' on the end of the motor spindle outside the HDA which activates a slotted optoswitch for the track 0 sensor. YOu can seee if this is moving when the machine accesses the drive. > Yes, I think you are right. From my reading it seems the IWD chip was used > in the early Macs and the Apple IIGS. The part shouldn't be that uncommon > then. IWM = 'Integrated Woz Machibne', I believe. Does anybody know if there's only one form of it, or several? I was under the impression it was sort-of a single-chip version of the logic on the Disk II controller board -- buty how close is it ot that logic? Is it the same state machine, for example? COuld you make a replacement using the know schematics and ROM dump from a Disk II? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:33:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:33:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: <4D41F2F3.1010809@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 27, 11 04:34:27 pm Message-ID: > Looking at photos of my system (physical hardware is in storage), it has 6 boards: > > 32K CPU/ROM/RAM, > FDC/serial, > 32K RAM, > VDU #1 (keyboard, modulator, composite out, 1KB RAM), > VDU #2 (composite out, 16KB RAM, 26-way header) > Bus terminator > > ... plus an "RGB board" mounted on the back panel, which has RGBS BNC outputs > and hooks to the 26-way header on VDU #2. VDU #1 and VDU #2 are connected > together via 16-way DIL headers on the boards. > > I *think* what I've labelled as "VDU #1" is the standard 40-column board (1KB The text VDU board (which I suspect is 'VDU #1') is connected directly to the CPU board, it does not connect to the bus ribbo ncable. That's one way to qucikly recognise it. As an aside, IIRC, the 40 column VDU has the cassette interface circuitry, the 80 column one deosn't (80 comlumn machines had to have disk drives). Aotehr aside, the 32K RAM expansion board is the same PCB as the CPU board, with may compoennts not fitted and different address decoder PROMs. > RAM isn't enough to do 80x25 text), and "VDU #2" is a hi-res board. From > memory, there's not a lot on the little rear-panel RGB output board; just a > few passives and transistors - I certainly don't remember it having a > modulator, so I don't think my machine does hi-res PAL output (if it does it'd > have to be via the UM1111 modulator on VDU #1) The RGB output PCB doesn't do PAL as well. The PAL encoder connects to the same 26 pin ehader on the hi-res board -- IIRC there's a header plug fitted on the RGB board cable to connec the PAL encoder to. The modulator on the text video board handels the text video _only_. It doesn't even carry a mono version o the hi-res video. IIRC the composite outptu socket o nthe back plane has a cable ending in a min coax plug which is connected to the text video PCB in non-hi-res machines, but to the hi-res board when that's fitted. IIRC that 16 wire cable between the video boards carries the text video and sync signals so the hi-res board output is a combination of its own image and the output of the text video board. > > Yes, mains filters can and do blow. I've replaced a few -- well, > > actually, most of the time I've replaced the capacitors only (seaprate > > components on a PCB). If there's potted filter module, I guess you > > replace the whole thing. > > Are we talking X/Y-class filters here, or primary smoothing caps just > downstream of the bridge rectifier? I was talking of the X/Y filter capacitors directly across the mains input wiring... The capacitors after the bridge rectifiers I normally call 'smoothing capacitors'. They may well be smoothing rectrified mains -- in an SMPSU. But the 380Z PSU is a linear one. > > I've had many ones of the former fail, but I can't think of a single machine I've had a few fail. But unpredicably. As I said, I was uing an HP monitor and suddenly one of the filter capacitors (separate components on the PCB, not a module, in this unit) exploded. It had been running for a hour when it failed, and I'd used the machine before that with no problems. I don;t think any test would have shown that it was likely to fail > I've worked on where I've needed to replace the latter. I've *seen* older I id replace the mains smoothing capacitors in the SMPSU in my HP120. They hadn;t failed, but one had a somewhat domed top, as if there had been pressure build-up at some point. They are located so they point straight at the CRT neck (!) and if one had blown its top, I think I would have been looking for a new CRT too. A pair of new capacitors seemed sensible. > equipment - 60s and early 70s - where they've been replaced, but it's not > something I've had to do on the age of machine I normally work on. I've changed a few, but certainly not all in the machines I own and use. Many of my DEC and HP machines from the 1970s still have all their original capacitors, for example/ > > I seem to recall a small tantalum capacitor somewhere in the PSUs of one of > the 380Zs that I've had letting go after a short while of use after being in > storage - big bang and a lot of smoke. That's the only time I've had that > happen to me, but it was a bit unnerving at the time :-) Yes, it happnes. And I know of now way to predict it or test for it. They just fail. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:37:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:37:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 27, 11 09:30:50 pm Message-ID: > Well, you could say a caveman with a fire is also a feedback control > system - Og is cold, so he adds more wood. Og is warm, so he relaxes. Surely there wre feedback control systems in biological organisms long before homo sapiens evolved. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 14:48:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:48:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: English definitions (was ENIAC..) In-Reply-To: <3CDD39A7A3AF4B98AF90371E18565028@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Jan 28, 11 05:10:50 pm Message-ID: > > I've been observing the discussion on the definition of "computer" and other > computer related words over the last few days/weeks. I've been involved in > forums for a number of years now and the most heated arguments seem to take > place regarding the definitions of particular words. Often they go along > the lines of who invented the first (widget/technique/concept) then evolve > into vigourous debates as to the precise definition of the said > widget/technique/concept etc. > > I'm all for precise definitions. You need them for clarity of > communication. But the English language itself and the way it evolves is a > problem here. It can lead to an unavoidable fuzziness and drifting of I think it was Martin Gardner who pointed out that many terms lie at opposite ends ofa contimuum, but that does not make them worthless. For example, nobody can give a precise wavelenght that separates 'blue' from 'green'. But this deosn't mean it's meaningless to say that the phospohr on the IBM5151 monitor I am using knw emits green light. Or that the Intellec MCS8i is blue. When we come ot 'first computer', how you define 'computer' clearly makes a differnece to the answer. But I think we all know that whatever you class as the 'first computer'. it was developed from earlier machiens that you don't class as computers, but others might. What is important, really, is to describe the machines accurately giving their mathod of operation, etc. Then others can decider whehter or not _they_ want to class them as computers, and more importantly can see how they fit into the overall history. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 28 15:20:25 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 21:20:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 28, 11 07:53:28 pm Message-ID: > Colour PAL board - modulator goes to TV out and composite plugs into this > too instead of VDU #1 Is this a normal sized board in one of the card guides? As Jules said, the RGB output board isn't, it's a little board an an L-brackt fixed ot the rear panel. I assume you also havea modulator on the text video board (VDU #1). The TV output socket cable is connected to that if you don't have the PAL board. Incidnetlaly, I've just rememberd I ahve a somwaht odd RML380Z board soemwhere. It's got a bit off address deocding logic on it, interconnected by PCB tracks. And 3 (I think) Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC in wire-wrap sockets. The Z80 bus linesare are connected to the 380Z bus connector, etc. the port lines and the counter/timer signals go nowhere. There's also a little prototyping area on the board and space to fit some header plugs. The idea is that you make your own custom interfce by adding the logic you need and wire-wrapping it to the PIO and CTC pins. Ans wire-wrap it to a header plug to connect a cable to the peripheral. I would love to find some of the other board too. There was rumoured to be an GPIB board. And an Econet interface. Oh, and a scheamtic of the cassette control box would be intreresting. > > Done all that, the boards are in great condition as is the PSU internals. > Problem is the glass fuse has blown and I don't have a spare at home, bah. > It needs 250V/1A and all I have easy access to are PETs which are 250V/.75A. Fuses generally blow for a reason. I asusme this is a mains fuse (in series with the live side of the mains), in which case the problem could be a short on the primary side (e.g. a filter capacitor, if they're after the fuse), or a short on the seondary side (redtifer diode, smoothing capacitor, etc0. I really would try the series light bulb trick in this case. Start with all the secoadary wires disconnected from teh trransfoerm, and power up wit ha ligth bulb in series with the mains live wire. It should be dark. If it glos, there's a short somwhwere. Power-down, reconnect the secondary wiring, but have the PSU unplugged from the rest of the machine. Power up a gain with the bulb in series. It will probabyl flash at power-on as the smoothing capacitors charge, and it may stay glowing, but dimly. If it's bright, I think you have a shorted rectifier or smoothing capacitor or similar. Of course findign a 100W bulb these days is a problem :-( -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 28 15:41:11 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 13:41:11 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4337F7.4090506@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook gives Tony Duell wrote: > Is this book on-line anywhere? http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/motorola/mc14500b/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 28 16:27:39 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 14:27:39 -0800 Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D4337F7.4090506@brouhaha.com> References: <4D4337F7.4090506@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2d749868f6ed32256402a05aab1b167c@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 28, at 1:41 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: >> The MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook gives > > Tony Duell wrote: >> Is this book on-line anywhere? > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/motorola/mc14500b/ Are there any known examples of real-world products or equipment that used the 14500 ? (Leaving aside evaluation boards & such.) I had the impression of it as a bit of a stillborn product, like the Fairchild CMOS Macrologic series (34700/4700 ICs), of limited cost-effectiveness or benefit by the time it was introduced. Anyone know when was it introduced? Earliest ref I have is 1979 in a Motorola full-line catalog. From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Fri Jan 28 16:46:14 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 16:46:14 -0600 Subject: IBM Centennial Film In-Reply-To: <4D423773.3020609@gmail.com> References: <4D423773.3020609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4D434736.1010500@tx.rr.com> On 1/27/2011 9:26 PM, leaknoil wrote: > Its a big long commercial but, some may get a kick out of it here. They > quickly skip over WW2 of course. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39jtNUGgmd4 > I just found it curious that the artwork at the 1401 introduction contains a good bit of punched paper tape. Later, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 28 17:06:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:06:10 -0800 Subject: English definitions (was ENIAC..) In-Reply-To: References: <3CDD39A7A3AF4B98AF90371E18565028@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Jan 28, 11 05:10:50 pm, Message-ID: <4D42DB62.9042.160F7FC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2011 at 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: >> I think it was Martin Gardner who pointed out that many terms lie at > opposite ends ofa contimuum, but that does not make them worthless. And the same words can mean something and its opposite. The verb "to dust" for example. If I dust the furniture, I (hopefully) am removing something from the surface of the coffee table. On the other hand, if I dust my toast with powdered cinnamon, I'm putting something on the surface of my Wonder Bread. Yet, we don't seem to get the two meanings confused... --Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 28 17:16:28 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:16:28 -0800 Subject: Kindle and bitsavers? In-Reply-To: References: <4D2F27AE.6070900@bitsavers.org> <4D42CC20.7010109@ubanproductions.com> , Message-ID: FWIW, I'm writing this email on my Android tablet, using a USB keyboard (Fellowes Stowaway) and my finger as the pointing device - I've found that the apps tend to get confused by a mouse pointer, since it represents a state and the pointer metaphor of the Android touchscreen is effectively stateless. The tablet is propped up on the brim of my hat - I have yet to find a sufficiently portable stand or easel for the device when I'm using it this way. But having it supported by my "Indiana Jones" leather hat is sufficiently non sequitur that I'm enjoying the dissonance.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks [ethan.dicks at gmail.com] Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 9:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Kindle and bitsavers? On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Ian King wrote: > Instead of going the Kindle route, I purchased a 7" Android tablet through Merimobiles (mine is a "generation" old, but the closest comparison is at http://www.merimobiles.com/Moonse_APAD_E7001_Aluminium_Version_APP_Market_p/meri0396.htm). Based on Ian's experiences and recommendation, I purchased a successor product from Merimobiles (a Haipad M701R, about $25 more than the E7001, faster CPU, Android 2.1, double the RAM, HDMI out, IR remote control for the media player...) >?It bears some of the limitations of the Kindle: small screen, relatively slow rendering. But it does include a micro-SD slot, which makes it easier to have a lot of content. The micro-SD slot is a very nice feature. I've got 8GB dropped into mine (came with the tablet for free as a promotional) > The app Documents To Go (it's $5 or $10, and definitely worth it) includes a pretty good PDF reader - it hasn't choked on anything I've offered it, including scanned papers and large PDF engineering drawings. (It reads *and writes* MS-Office docs, too.) I haven't tried that PDF reader - I'm using the free one from Adobe. I'm also using it to view *large* PDFs with mixed results. >?It does have a touchscreen, making panning easier. It does WiFi, but not Bluetooth. And it's $145. Mine was $169 plus postage from Shanghai. > Did I mention the screen is color! While I think the eInk is well done and nice to look at, it's a plus to have the color screen, especially when I'm reading the Sunday paper and get to the comics. (I don't buy the newspaper anymore - there's an app for that.) I'm still interested in ePaper as a technology, but the E702R is a full-on tablet computer, not "merely" an eBook reader, so it naturally has an LCD screen, and that means color (whether I wanted it or not). > I am not associated with Merimobiles other than as a satisfied customer -- Ian Ditto. My issues are with the limitations of an inexpensive device. I am satisfied with my experiences with Merimobiles. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 28 17:33:04 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 15:33:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jan 28, 11 08:37:02 pm" Message-ID: <201101282333.p0SNX4bE012016@floodgap.com> > > Well, you could say a caveman with a fire is also a feedback control > > system - Og is cold, so he adds more wood. Og is warm, so he relaxes. > > Surely there wre feedback control systems in biological organisms long > before homo sapiens evolved. Bacterial iron homeostasis comes to mind. Some iron is needed, but not too much. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- Juan Ramon Jimenez --- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 17:39:43 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:39:43 -0500 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <201101282333.p0SNX4bE012016@floodgap.com> References: <201101282333.p0SNX4bE012016@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Bacterial iron homeostasis comes to mind. Some iron is needed, but not too > much. Well, life itself is one helluva feedback control system. But Og in his cave with a fire is a man-made invention. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 28 17:59:51 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 17:59:51 -0600 Subject: Kryoflux folks need help Message-ID: Seems they are willing to implement software support for hard-sectored 5.25" disk formats if someone can provide them with some known-good examples to work with. Preferably in the UK: http://forum.kryoflux.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=117 -- jht From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jan 28 20:39:58 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 18:39:58 -0800 Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <2d749868f6ed32256402a05aab1b167c@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D4337F7.4090506@brouhaha.com> <2d749868f6ed32256402a05aab1b167c@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D437DFE.7050009@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote about the MC14500B: > Anyone know when was it introduced? Earliest ref I have is 1979 in a Motorola full-line catalog. The date of the second printing of the MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook is December 1977. I don't have the first printing. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 28 21:50:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 19:50:50 -0800 Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D437DFE.7050009@brouhaha.com> References: , <2d749868f6ed32256402a05aab1b167c@cs.ubc.ca>, <4D437DFE.7050009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D431E1A.23028.265962F@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2011 at 18:39, Eric Smith wrote: > Brent Hilpert wrote about the MC14500B: > > Anyone know when was it introduced? Earliest ref I have is 1979 in > a > Motorola full-line catalog. > > The date of the second printing of the MC14500B Industrial Control > Unit Handbook is December 1977. I don't have the first printing. It's also worth noting that the thing does not appear in the 1981 Motorola Microprocessor Databook. So it's obvious that Motorola did not consider it to be a microprocessor. (duh!) --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 28 22:54:16 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 20:54:16 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D41F1C4.8060609@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 27, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > I don;t think I would consider the 14500 on its own as a 'computer'. But > I don't see why a computer can't be built using one or more of them. > Hi Tony I always thought is would be fun to make a variable bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. Dwight From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 29 00:46:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2011 22:46:41 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: <4D41F1C4.8060609@brouhaha.com>, , Message-ID: <4D434751.7722.30696CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2011 at 20:54, dwight elvey wrote: > I always thought is would be fun to make a variable > bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit > while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like > adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. How about instead of bits, 4-bit digits (perhaps with a programmable switch between BCD and binary math)? I suspect that it wouldn't be much more complicated than 1-bit serial design. Add an extra bit to each digit as a flag and you've got yourself a 1620. :) --Chuck From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Jan 29 02:16:05 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 21:16:05 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: <47C1451A33B14490A6BAC05945932A3A@massey.ac.nz> > Was the HDA a 'stadnard' one for the time? Surely Apple didn't make that > themselves. Was it, for example, the HDA from an ST412 or something. Not sure Tony. I haven't explored it to this level yet. > IWM = 'Integrated Woz Machibne', I believe. Does anybody know if there's > only one form of it, or several? Not sure about this either, but I'll probably soon find out. > I was under the impression it was sort-of a single-chip version of the > logic on the Disk II controller board -- buty how close is it ot that > logic? Is it the same state machine, for example? COuld you make a > replacement using the know schematics and ROM dump from a Disk II? Maybe. But seeking a direct replacement will be my preferred option. Terry From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 02:32:03 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 00:32:03 -0800 Subject: bit-serial processors (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D434751.7722.30696CC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D41F1C4.8060609@brouhaha.com>, , <4D434751.7722.30696CC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D43D083.1020708@brouhaha.com> Dwight wrote: > I always thought is would be fun to make a variable > bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit > while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like > adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about instead of bits, 4-bit digits (perhaps with a programmable > switch between BCD and binary math)? I suspect that it wouldn't be > much more complicated than 1-bit serial design. You've just described the architecture of the proprietary processors used in Hewlett-Packard calculator models released between 1972 and 1999. There were four versions of the architecture that were bit-serial but did arithmetic one decimal digit at a time, or four binary bits. The word size was 48, 56, or 64 bits, and arithmetic operations could work on any range of digits (or aligned four-bit binary groups) of a word. Classic: 56-bit, BCD only, strict Harvard architecture (10-bit ROM words in separate address space) Woodstock/Spice/Topcat: 56-bit, selectable BCD/binary, strict Harvard architecture, 10-bit ROM Cricket: 48-bit, selectable BCD/binary, strict Harvard architecture, 10-bit ROM Nut: 56-bit, BCD/binary, 10-bit ROM, but with instructions to read ROM words as data (modified Harvard Architecture) Saturn: 64-bit, nibble serial (rather than bit-serial), von Neuman architecture (unified address space, instructions encoded in variable length of consecutive 4-bit nibbles) Starting in the 1990s, HP replaced the custom architecture(s) with commercial microcontrollers and microprocessors, including the Hitachi H8, SunPlus/GeneralPlus 6502 derivatives, Samsung S3C2410 ARM920T (graphing calculators), and most recently the Atmel AT91SAM7L128 ARM7. The graphing calculators still run a simulation of the Saturn architecture for legacy code. The use of the Atmel part in recent models (HP 12c, HP 20b, HP 30b) is nice because it is a flash-based part, so you can write your own replacement firmware for it, something that was not previously possible in entry to midrange HP calculators. Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 29 02:52:17 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 00:52:17 -0800 Subject: How many ICs does it take to put a man on the moon Message-ID: <02de26110dfe4eef0585bf3206f76417@cs.ubc.ca> Here's a funny story. Margaret Atwood, famous Canadian woman of letters (writer, novelist, "The Handmaid's Tale", "Oryx & Crake", etc.) was heard in an interview on a high-school radio program to be questioning the Apollo moon landings. It's not quite clear whether she believes it was a hoax, whether she was hoaxing the hoax, just encouraging kids to question things, or later backpedalled to avoid embarrassment. One version: http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/09/23/margaret-atwoods-just- wondering-about-that-silly-moon-landing-hoax/ What makes this topical to the list though, is one of reasons she gave to question the landings: The question about the moon landing is why haven?t we been back. And it was done in an age where computers were as big as a couple of rooms. If you even look at the Space Odyssey 2001 HAL the computer, and I think that movie came out in the late 60s, HAL the computer is huge. We didn?t yet have microchips. So I just wonder, how did they do that? Why they haven?t done it again if it was so easy? Later, after backpedalling a bit, she still says: But the questions about the computer technology needed to do something this complex remain with us? what were they using, in those days before microchips? How heavy was it? Apparently it only takes 40 years, not 2000 (Antikythera), to start questioning whether our 'forebears' were able to do things without the tools we have today. And she was publishing in the 60s, it's not like it was all before her time. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 03:03:10 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 01:03:10 -0800 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D43D7CE.4000701@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote about hard drives on the Lisa: > Was the HDA a 'stadnard' one for the time? Surely Apple didn't make that > themselves. Was it, for example, the HDA from an ST412 or something. The original 5MB Apple "Profile" drive used an HDA from an external vendor. I'm not sure which one. I've never seen the innards of the later 10MB Profile. I've got a prototype of an internal 5MB hard drive for the Lisa, which was just a repackaging of the 5MB Profile into the appropriate form factor for internal use. This never shipped as a product. Having not yet learned from the Twiggy floppy drive fiasco that they were not competent to design everything in house, Apple made their own 10MB hard drive for the Lisa 2/10 (later Macintosh XL), the Widget. The HDA was either made by Apple, or by a vendor based on an Apple design. It doesn't physically resemble any other 5.25-inch HDA I've ever seen. > IWM = 'Integrated Woz Machibne', I believe. Does anybody know if there's > only one form of it, or several? Aside from being made in either a DIP or a PLCC, I don't think there are any significant variants to it. > I was under the impression it was sort-of a single-chip version of the > logic on the Disk II controller board -- buty how close is it ot that > logic? It has some added features and modes, but if you don't enable those, it is mostly compatible with the Disk II controller. > Is it the same state machine, for example? Probably. > Could you make a replacement using the know schematics and ROM dump from a Disk II? No, because you wouldn't have the extra features and modes. Apple never provided good documentation on the IWM to customers. Since it is used in the Apple IIc and Apple IIgs, there is a little bit of docs in the hardware reference manuals and firmware listings for those machines. Information is also available in US patent 4,742,448. The later SWIM disk controller chip was an IWM with an added IBM-compatible MFM controller. There is even less published documentation for that, other than US patent 4,916,556. Actually, it appears that a fair bit of internal docs have leaked out relatively recently: ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/IWM-Device_Specification_Rev19-1982.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 198205.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 19820531.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 19831129.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 1984-01.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 19840228.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 19840510.pdf ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM INFO 19840524.pdf This explains how to switch a SWIM chip between IWM mode and ISM (MFM) mode, but unfortunately doesn't include the ISM mode documentation: ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 SWIM SPEC 19870929.pdf This one is not an Apple document, but may be very helpful in understanding how to use the IWM: ftp://public.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/documentation/hardware/storage/APPLE 2 IWM PARKER 1994-02.pdf From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 03:23:40 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 01:23:40 -0800 Subject: How many ICs does it take to put a man on the moon In-Reply-To: <02de26110dfe4eef0585bf3206f76417@cs.ubc.ca> References: <02de26110dfe4eef0585bf3206f76417@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D43DC9C.5090207@brouhaha.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > What makes this topical to the list though, is one of reasons she gave to question the landings: > The question about the moon landing is why haven?t we been back. > And it was done in an age where computers were as big as a couple of rooms. Did anyone point out to her: 1) The Apollo Guidance Computer occupied less two cubic feet. If she doesn't believe that, there are AGCs on Earth that could be examined by experts to evaluate their capabilities and confirm their age. Though if she won't believe it based on the wealth of published information, it's not likely that anything would convince her. 2) Mission planning was done on Earth using room-size computers. 3) It doesn't matter what size the computer was. We don't go back because the Apollo program cost $170 billion (in 2005 dollars) according to NASA figures. In 2009 dollars, that is about $31 billion dollars per successful moon landing. We clearly *could* go to the moon again. It still wouldn't be easy. The reason we don't do it is simple. We don't have the will to do it, so we're averse to spending $31 billion dollars for another trip. Eventually another human will set foot on the moon. It seems highly unlikely that he or she will be a US citizen, unless it is a privately funded mission. From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 29 07:18:02 2011 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 08:18:02 -0500 Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... Message-ID: <20110129131802.32D4A1E00D9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Brent asks: > Are there any known examples of real-world products or equipment that > used the 14500 ? > (Leaving aside evaluation boards & such.) I've seen it used in railway interlocking control panels and HVAC applications from the early 80's... places where PDP-14's had previously been used and it's pretty obvious the design was done from ladder logic principles. Interestingly, a certain generation of GRS interlocking control panels used PC boards and backplanes exactly matching the format of quad-height DEC modules. I never traced out the backplane wiring but at first glance it was nothing like Q-bus or Omnibus. > I had the impression of it as a bit of a stillborn product, like the > Fairchild CMOS Macrologic series (34700/4700 ICs), of limited > cost-effectiveness or benefit by the time it was introduced. There were many bitslice families out there that never saw wide use or maybe only existed in databooks. After the 2901 everyone tried to jump in. The MC14500B at least was obviously not a 2901 clone :-) Tim. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 08:30:43 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 09:30:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <4D43D7CE.4000701@brouhaha.com> References: <4D43D7CE.4000701@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 29 Jan 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote about hard drives on the Lisa: >> Was the HDA a 'stadnard' one for the time? Surely Apple didn't make that >> themselves. Was it, for example, the HDA from an ST412 or something. > > The original 5MB Apple "Profile" drive used an HDA from an external vendor. > I'm not sure which one. I've never seen the innards of the later 10MB > Profile. Seagate ST506 and ST412 respectively for 5 and 10MB. At least in all the ones I've seen. I'm told that the 10MB model had a custom stepper motor a pitch 2x finer than normal, i.e. 2 pulses were required between tracks. This appears correct, since my attempts at using an ST412 mechanism for a 10MB unit yielded only 5MB of storage capacity (it was skipping every other track). When I get time and energy, I'm going to tack on a simple divide-by-two circuit (single flip-flop) and see if that does the trick. Steve -- From trebor77 at execpc.com Sat Jan 29 08:56:47 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (trebor77 at execpc.com) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 09:56:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: The Ultimate Computer Message-ID: <1163.69.95.232.201.1296313007.squirrel@newmail.core.com> Imaging an Alien Being totally non-Physical but infinite in Nature capable of Computing. Aren't our Brains Computers of a sort.??? They take in Inputs from all the Parts of our bodies. Process that information and act on it. Producing Output to our Optical Part of our "BRAIN" in response to sensory Input from our Optical Sensors ;"EYES",? If we see Food we eat it if we are "HUNGRY". The same can be said for all of Nature. It reacts to Sensory Input and outputs a Response. Birds can sense the Magnetic Field of the Earth and Guide themselves accordingly They also can sense the Position of the Stars and Navigate from them. The Monarch Butterfly must have a Built in Programmable ROM as when One generation flies South to Mexico in the Fall the same Individual does not make the Return trip but instead Produces Offspring along the way but those Offspring find there way back to there "HOME" Port unfailingly as does the Fingerling Salmon who traveled down the Columbia River. In Essence every thing that "MAN" has Discovered or Invented already existed in the Natural World in some Form or the Other "Food For Thought" Now theres a handy "Thought" And in closing "All Computers Need a Programmer" even a light switch. Pair up 3 and you have a "3-Way Circuit" which when activated turns on the Appropriate light. I even had a Four Way installed in my Basement. I Just added an "X" Crossover in the Circuit at the bottom of the Stairs. Works great. Turn it ON at the Top of the Stairs and you can either Turn it OFF at the Bottom or Turn it OFF over by the Sink in the Laundry Room then turn it back ON from the Bottom of the stairs for the return trip. If one used Motion Sensing Switches then One would not have to even Streach out his Hand to flip the switch. Start with 256 Switches and a Diode Matrix and you have the Makings for a Home Brew Computer. Just add circuits to each Output of the Matrix and you can control up to 255 Devices. CRUDE but effective. Replace the Devices with Logic Circuits and before you know it your Computing. Now that's Computing. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:22:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:22:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 28, 11 08:54:16 pm Message-ID: > > > > =20 > > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > > I don=3Bt think I would consider the 14500 on its own as a 'computer'. Bu= > t=20 > > I don't see why a computer can't be built using one or more of them. > >=20 > > Hi Tony > I always thought is would be fun to make a variable > bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit Are you implying that the data registers should be variable length, or that a variable number of bits should be used in each instruction? Perhaps I can be clearer. The operation of reading a bit from a register on a bit-serial machine normally inplies a rotation of that register, so that repeating the operation reads the next bit, and so on. Now if the register is, say, 16 bits long, do you want a '7 bit' operation to roatate the whole register by 7 bits (so that it's different at the end of the operation), or a rotation of the bottom 7 bits only (which would leave the register unchanged at the end of the operation)? Incidentally, I have the schematics for a bit-serial processor in front of me at the moment... The HP9800. That's mostly [1] bit serial, and the microcode clock circuitry alows a given bit operation to be repeated 1 to 16 times. So that an add of 2 16 bit reigsters is one microinstruciton, and an increment takes 2 microinstruction (add 1 once, and 0 15 times). [1] Yes, mostly. There are a couple of BCD operations between the A accumator and the T memory data register that oeprate a nybble at a time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:25:32 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:25:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <47C1451A33B14490A6BAC05945932A3A@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Jan 29, 11 09:16:05 pm Message-ID: > > I was under the impression it was sort-of a single-chip version of the > > logic on the Disk II controller board -- buty how close is it ot that > > logic? Is it the same state machine, for example? COuld you make a > > replacement using the know schematics and ROM dump from a Disk II? > > Maybe. But seeking a direct replacement will be my preferred option. Sure, and I can;t beleive that early Macs (Mac Plus, for example) are that hard to find. However, the IWM was a custom part, and it may well have been that the chip was never sold on its own (Apple went in for board-swapping :-(). The supply of them is going to dry up at some point, so it's worth thinking about a possigle replacement made from standard parts. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:02:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:02:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D4337F7.4090506@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 28, 11 01:41:11 pm Message-ID: > > I wrote: > > The MC14500B Industrial Control Unit Handbook gives > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Is this book on-line anywhere? > > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/motorola/mc14500b/ THnaks... I've had a quickj look and will look at it more carefully when I hae some spare time. From what I've seen, I certainly wouldn't call this chip on its own a 'computer', but I don't see why it could't be part of one. It's a curious device though. Even at the time it was made it didn't replace that many IC packages, and if you're not careful, using something like this means the solution to the real problem becomes a kludge so as to use said chip. I am not at all suprsied it wasn't that popular. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:32:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:32:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: bit-serial processors (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D43D083.1020708@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 29, 11 00:32:03 am Message-ID: > > Dwight wrote: > > I always thought is would be fun to make a variable > > bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit > > while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like > > adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > How about instead of bits, 4-bit digits (perhaps with a programmable > > switch between BCD and binary math)? I suspect that it wouldn't be > > much more complicated than 1-bit serial design. > > You've just described the architecture of the proprietary processors > used in Hewlett-Packard calculator models released between 1972 and 1999. My first thoguht was of a slightly larger HP calculator, the 9800 series. [...] > Classic: 56-bit, BCD only, strict Harvard architecture (10-bit ROM > words in separate address space) > Woodstock/Spice/Topcat: 56-bit, selectable BCD/binary, strict Harvard > architecture, 10-bit ROM The HP919C must be in this group too (same ACT processor), what about the other Sting model, the 10A? And of course the 67 uses an ACT too, even though it's sometimes clased as a 'classic series' by people who think the case is nor interesting than the procesor :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:07:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:07:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: English definitions (was ENIAC..) In-Reply-To: <4D42DB62.9042.160F7FC@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 28, 11 03:06:10 pm Message-ID: > > On 28 Jan 2011 at 20:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> I think it was Martin Gardner who pointed out that many terms lie > at > > opposite ends ofa contimuum, but that does not make them worthless. > > And the same words can mean something and its opposite. The verb "to > dust" for example. If I dust the furniture, I (hopefully) am > removing something from the surface of the coffee table. On the Actually, at least how 'dustiong' is normally down over here, it means getting the dust from the coffee table into the air, so that it lands somewhere else. Personally, I'd rather have dust on the coffee table than inside one of my comptuers :-) > other hand, if I dust my toast with powdered cinnamon, I'm putting > something on the surface of my Wonder Bread. > > Yet, we don't seem to get the two meanings confused... I remember reading some chains of words where each word and the next were almost synonyms, but the ends of the chain had completely opposite meanings. Of coruse the meanings of words also vaires with context. A 'bus driver' might be the man who was sitting just in front and to the right of me on a Routemaster about 4 hours ago. Or it might be a 74LS244 on a PCB in the comptuer I was fixing. Again, we don't seem to get confused by this., -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:13:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:13:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D431E1A.23028.265962F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 28, 11 07:50:50 pm Message-ID: > It's also worth noting that the thing does not appear in the 1981 > Motorola Microprocessor Databook. So it's obvious that Motorola did > not consider it to be a microprocessor. (duh!) My experience, however, is that manufacturers didn't always put chips in the 'obvious' databooks, possibly make customers buy several books to get all the data sheets they needed. IIRC, my Motoroal 8-bit microiprocessor databook (some years later than that) doesn't include things like the 6803 or 6805, there was a sepatate 'microcontrolelr' databook I think. Perhaps the most annoyine one is that the Intel microprocessor and peripherals databook in the early 1990s didn't include the 8250 or 8251 (it did include the 8253, 8255, etc). There was a 'communciatons' databook that inlcuded thye seiral chips. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 08:45:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:45:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <4D43D7CE.4000701@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 29, 11 01:03:10 am Message-ID: > Having not yet learned from the Twiggy floppy drive fiasco that they > were not competent to design everything in house, Apple made their own > 10MB hard drive for the Lisa 2/10 (later Macintosh XL), the Widget. The > HDA was either made by Apple, or by a vendor based on an Apple design. > It doesn't physically resemble any other 5.25-inch HDA I've ever seen. That suprises me. I knew the elecrtronics was an Apple design, but I had assumed they'ed used a standard HDA (much as the (floppy drive) Disk II was claerly a Shughart chassis with an Apple PCB on it). > > > IWM = 'Integrated Woz Machibne', I believe. Does anybody know if there's > > only one form of it, or several? > > Aside from being made in either a DIP or a PLCC, I don't think there are > any significant variants to it. Right, so to regurt to the OP's problem, an IWM chip form a Mac Plus (which is in a DIP package) is very likely to work in his Lisa. > > > I was under the impression it was sort-of a single-chip version of the > > logic on the Disk II controller board -- buty how close is it ot that > > logic? > > It has some added features and modes, but if you don't enable those, it > is mostly compatible with the Disk II controller. > > > Is it the same state machine, for example? > > Probably. > > > Could you make a replacement using the know schematics and ROM dump > from a Disk II? > > No, because you wouldn't have the extra features and modes. I didn;t mean trying to conenct a Disk II controller board to a Lisa I/O board :-). What I meant was if you had a dump of the P6A PROM, the schematics of the Disk II interface board and the spec of the IWM (which you reference below), could you make a repalcement with not too much work? The main problem would be if the state machine was different, figuring out the new data from the ROM is a lot of work... -tony From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 29 09:56:40 2011 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 10:56:40 -0500 Subject: How many ICs does it take to put a man on the moon Message-ID: <20110129155640.B97AD1E00E2@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Brent mentions Atwood saying: > The question about the moon landing is why haven?t we been back. > And it was done in an age where computers were as big as a couple of rooms. > If you even look at the Space Odyssey 2001 HAL the computer, and I think > that movie came out in the late 60s, HAL the computer is huge. > We didn?t yet have microchips. So I just wonder, how did they do that? > Why they haven?t done it again if it was so easy? My day job is a computer that has a $10 Billion (1980's dollars) peripheral. In other words the computer isn't the end goal :-). To think that the computer is the peripheral, sometimes trips up even the senior execs. Really the computer only exists to help the peripheral :-). Getting back to Atwood's babbling, I don't remember JFK promising to land a computer on the moon by the end of the decade. And BTW, we have sent computers to the moon, and landed them on Mars, many times since then, all in the goal of space science, not in the goal of sending computers there :-) Tim. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jan 29 11:08:41 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 09:08:41 -0800 Subject: The Ultimate Computer In-Reply-To: <1163.69.95.232.201.1296313007.squirrel@newmail.core.com> References: <1163.69.95.232.201.1296313007.squirrel@newmail.core.com> Message-ID: <4D444999.1070500@bitsavers.org> On 1/29/11 6:56 AM, trebor77 at execpc.com wrote: > > Aren't our Brains Computers of a sort.??? That was a theory about 50 years ago. One theory now is we are more like a distributed pattern matching system and that there is a great deal of preprocessing done outside of the mass in our skulls, meaning there is no deterministic 'program' as we think of most computers working today. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 29 11:47:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 09:47:03 -0800 Subject: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: References: from "dwight elvey" at Jan 28, 11 08:54:16 pm, Message-ID: <4D43E217.22850.101946@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2011 at 14:22, Tony Duell wrote: > Are you implying that the data registers should be variable length, or > that a variable number of bits should be used in each instruction? Why any (visible) registers at all? Memory-to-memory was the basis for several IBM computers. The aforementioned 1620 was a 2-address machine with variable word length with no visible registers (the P- counter was not readable by a program). Word length was essentially limited by the size of a bank of memory (about 20K decimal digits). Word length was at least 2 digits, with an extra bit serving the dual purpose of a sign (if set on the low-order digit of a word) or a demarcator (if set on the high-order digit). While it's true that the 1620 used 5 digit address registers for memory access and the P-counter, none was readable by a program. It sounds like it was clumsy, but the architecture was very friendly to hordes of early 1960s students. Being decimal, it was a system whose learning curve was not steep. The usual unit record interfaces, in addition to a console typewriter and an optional disk interface (to the 1311) were present. Arithmetic was performed by table lookup, with the addition and multiplication tables located in low memory and alterable by user programs. Dijkstra hated the machine, but it was popular and as the 1710, was one of IBM's first industrial process control computers. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 14:17:17 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 14:17:17 -0600 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4475CD.7020805@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 27/01/2011 22:34, "Jules Richardson" > wrote: > >> Looking at photos of my system (physical hardware is in storage), it has 6 >> boards: >> >> 32K CPU/ROM/RAM, >> FDC/serial, >> 32K RAM, >> VDU #1 (keyboard, modulator, composite out, 1KB RAM), >> VDU #2 (composite out, 16KB RAM, 26-way header) >> Bus terminator > > Obviously the order isn't that important. Mine is (R to L): > > 32K cpu/rom/ram > VDU #1 > 32K RAM > VDU #2 > FDC/serial > Colour PAL board - modulator goes to TV out and composite plugs into this > too instead of VDU #1 Interesting - presumably the colour PAL board also does the bus termination (my bus terminator card's also labelled as being for black and white video, although components for that aspect aren't fitted - presumably it was used on 40x25 systems without the hi-res option) >> ... plus an "RGB board" mounted on the back panel, which has RGBS BNC outputs >> and hooks to the 26-way header on VDU #2. VDU #1 and VDU #2 are connected >> together via 16-way DIL headers on the boards. > > I don't have that. Odd, I always assumed it was a standard part of hi-res functionality. Any chance of some board photos of the VDU boards sometime? >>>> I should be able to get a Megger at work. The reason I mention the >>>> caps is because the last 3 or 4 machines I've had in have all blown >>>> the mains filters. >>> Right.. Those are not the capacitors that most people replace without >>> testing on old machines... > > And this machine doesn't have them anyway, it's a brick transformer. Does it have a case fan? What about voltage regulators mounted on the rear of the case? The latter were early machines I think and quite uncommon. Typical machines have the voltage regs internally and a chassis fan fitted, although I know there's at least one machine out there with internal regs and no forced-air cooling. > Done all that, the boards are in great condition as is the PSU internals. Good news! > Problem is the glass fuse has blown and I don't have a spare at home, bah. > It needs 250V/1A and all I have easy access to are PETs which are 250V/.75A. I'm not sure how close to the limit the systems typically run - .75A might work I suppose, just for testing (and at least for soak-testing the PSU under a dummy load, if you decide to do that) cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 14:22:19 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:22:19 -0800 Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <20110129131802.32D4A1E00D9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20110129131802.32D4A1E00D9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4D4476FB.8070802@brouhaha.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: > There were many bitslice families out there that never saw wide use > or maybe only existed in databooks. After the 2901 everyone tried > to jump in. The MC14500B at least was obviously not a 2901 clone :-) The Am2901 is an improved clone of the MMI 6701! AMD and Raytheon succeeded in getting the 2901 into mass production before MMI did that with the 6701, reportedly because MMI had a lot of technical issues early on. The Fairchild Macrologic parts also appear to have been inspired by the MMI parts, and by Fairchild's 3800 MOS 8-bit ALU from 1969. The TTL versions of the Fairchild Macrologic parts might have even shipped prior to the Am2901, though I can't find definitive information on that. The CMOS Macrologic parts probably shipped after the Am2901. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 14:30:00 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:30:00 -0800 Subject: databooks (was Re: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > My experience, however, is that manufacturers didn't always put chips in > the 'obvious' databooks, possibly make customers buy several books to get > all the data sheets they needed. Despite there being prices printed on the covers of some databooks, customers didn't buy them. The sales reps and distributors all but forced them onto customers. The prices were what other people such as hobbyists paid. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 14:31:43 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:31:43 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D44792F.4080806@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Are you implying that the data registers should be variable length, or > that a variable number of bits should be used in each instruction? The only processor I've ever seen for which instructions are a variable number of bits (not bytes or words) is the Intel iAPX 432. For the release 1 GDP, instructions ranged from 6 to 344 bits long. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jan 29 14:34:46 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:34:46 -0800 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4479E6.5030703@brouhaha.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I didn;t mean trying to conenct a Disk II controller board to a Lisa I/O > board :-). What I meant was if you had a dump of the P6A PROM, the > schematics of the Disk II interface board and the spec of the IWM (which > you reference below), could you make a repalcement with not too much > work? The main problem would be if the state machine was different, > figuring out the new data from the ROM is a lot of work... Presumably in 7 MHz mode the state machine is identical or very similar to that of the Disk II controller. In 8 MHz mode, it must have additional states. Eric From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 29 14:49:16 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 12:49:16 -0800 Subject: databooks (was Re: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> References: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <6232455b41c4af276b67032f2c99047f@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 29, at 12:30 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > My experience, however, is that manufacturers didn't always put > chips in > > the 'obvious' databooks, possibly make customers buy several books > to get > > all the data sheets they needed. > > Despite there being prices printed on the covers of some databooks, > customers didn't buy them. The sales reps and distributors all but > forced them onto customers. > > The prices were what other people such as hobbyists paid. I must have been lucky as a kid, I don't think I was ever charged for a databook at the industrial/commercial component sellers. I think I did pay for a couple at Radio Shack where they sold Nat Semi reprints. - In the 1979 Motorola catalog, the 14500 is listed both with "CMOS Processors" (6805,141000,141200..) and in the standard CMOS 4xxx SSI/MSI section. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 29 15:20:15 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:20:15 -0800 Subject: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC .... In-Reply-To: <4D4476FB.8070802@brouhaha.com> References: <20110129131802.32D4A1E00D9@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <4D4476FB.8070802@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <0b6ea105e1f7d0e8e2922a4ca45e9db9@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Jan 29, at 12:22 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Tim Shoppa wrote: > > There were many bitslice families out there that never saw wide use > > or maybe only existed in databooks. After the 2901 everyone tried > > to jump in. The MC14500B at least was obviously not a 2901 clone :-) > > The Am2901 is an improved clone of the MMI 6701! AMD and Raytheon > succeeded in getting the 2901 into mass production before MMI did that > with the 6701, reportedly because MMI had a lot of technical issues > early on. The Fairchild Macrologic parts also appear to have been > inspired by the MMI parts, and by Fairchild's 3800 MOS 8-bit ALU from > 1969. The TTL versions of the Fairchild Macrologic parts might have > even shipped prior to the Am2901, though I can't find definitive > information on that. The CMOS Macrologic parts probably shipped after > the Am2901. I first saw the CMOS Macrologic ICs (347xx) in the Fairchild 1975 CMOS databook, where the info is presented as "PRELIMINARY (products planned for 1975)". I wasn't aware of the TTL versions until you mentioned them, but I see now they are listed briefly in the 1975 full-line catalog (94xx numbers). Fairchild had the hybrid DTL SH8080 ("4-bit Arithmetic Unit" - 4-bit adder and accumulator/register) in 1966. From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jan 29 15:20:39 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 13:20:39 -0800 Subject: databooks (was Re: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <6232455b41c4af276b67032f2c99047f@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> <6232455b41c4af276b67032f2c99047f@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D4484A7.3060703@jwsss.com> It is a requirement of the publishing and book business that if you are going to put a product on the shelf you need a price and other bits of info. Even if a book was never sold, some manufacturers always put the extra on the book just in case. and sometimes I'm sure it was the contractor who did the book for the chip people who routinely did that on their product as well. Reps were always the best ones to get to, followed by a distributor from who you purchased a reasonable amount of product. Hamilton was always nice as was Avnet before they merged. They would let you go into their library and just load up here in Irvine. Sometimes they would ask questions because they wanted to track the projects at your company, and if you were loading up on weird stuff you'd tell them it was for your own research. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 15:37:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 21:37:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D44792F.4080806@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jan 29, 11 12:31:43 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Are you implying that the data registers should be variable length, or > > that a variable number of bits should be used in each instruction? > > The only processor I've ever seen for which instructions are a variable > number of bits (not bytes or words) is the Intel iAPX 432. For the > release 1 GDP, instructions ranged from 6 to 344 bits long. IIRC, the Transputer is just plain weird here. You have to build up the instruction in an internal register before you exexute it (there are opcodes that modify this instruction register in various ways). I think the most common instructions can be loaded in 1 byte. It's rather different to the multi-byte instructions on otehr processor anyway. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 29 15:43:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 21:43:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: <4D4475CD.7020805@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 29, 11 02:17:17 pm Message-ID: > Interesting - presumably the colour PAL board also does the bus termination > (my bus terminator card's also labelled as being for black and white video, > although components for that aspect aren't fitted - presumably it was used on > 40x25 systems without the hi-res option) I am a little puzzled. AFAIK you can make a minimal system with no bus cable or termiantor atall -- just the CPU board linked ot the 40 column VDU. Video output comes from the VDU card. Do you have any idea waht sort of components could be fitted on the terminator bord? Are there spaces for (DIL) ICs, or jsut discretes? > > >> ... plus an "RGB board" mounted on the back panel, which has RGBS BNC outputs > >> and hooks to the 26-way header on VDU #2. VDU #1 and VDU #2 are connected > >> together via 16-way DIL headers on the boards. > > > > I don't have that. > > Odd, I always assumed it was a standard part of hi-res functionality. Any > chance of some board photos of the VDU boards sometime? The 16 wire cable is part of the hi-res system, and the machine can't run properly without it. I wonder if the OP was refering to the RGB output module -- it's quite possible to have a hi-res machine without that fitted. > Does it have a case fan? What about voltage regulators mounted on the rear of > the case? The latter were early machines I think and quite uncommon. Typical > machines have the voltage regs internally and a chassis fan fitted, although I > know there's at least one machine out there with internal regs and no > forced-air cooling. I am pretty sure my 380Z (and all the ones I used at school) has the voltage reguatlors mounted internally (on the metal cover over the PSU area) and a fan. There are at least 2 versions ofthe 5.25" machine. One has a pair offull-heigfht drives fitted horizotnally, the otehr has a pair of 2/3 height (!) drives mounted vertically. The latter seems more common. > I'm not sure how close to the limit the systems typically run - .75A might > work I suppose, just for testing (and at least for soak-testing the PSU under > a dummy load, if you decide to do that) I am pretty sure the PSU will draw less than 750mA with no load. I don't know about the switch-on surge though a 750mA anti-surge fuse would probably be OL< a quick blow one may not be. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 15:57:13 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 16:57:13 -0500 Subject: databooks (was Re: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> References: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Despite there being prices printed on the covers of some databooks, > customers didn't buy them. ?The sales reps and distributors all but forced > them onto customers. > > The prices were what other people such as hobbyists paid. I doubt there were many hobbyists that actually purchased those databooks. Everyone I knew back in the databook era would make up a phony company name, and then get flooded with databooks, industrial periodicals, and best of all, samples! Yes, all those tech reps knew that they were phony companies, and most of what they were handing out for free would yield nothing, but they also knew that a few of those freebies might pay back in a big way. I still get junkmail with the company name I came up with 28 years ago! Basically, only fools paid the cover price for databooks or the industrial rags. -- Will From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jan 29 20:26:00 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 02:26:00 +0000 Subject: ANN: DiscFerret speaks ST506! Message-ID: <4D44CC38.2080705@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys... I've just this second got my DiscFerret talking to an ST506 hard drive. Specifically, a Control Data / Magnetic Peripherals 94205-51 "Wren IIHH", apparently also known as the Seagate ST253. 989 cylinders, 5 heads, 17 sectors. It also seems to bear an uncanny shape-and-weight resemblance to a breezeblock... But anyway, I digress. First, the pretty pictures: Linear histogram: http://www.discferret.com/temp/st506/dat.lin_histogram.png Logarithmic histogram: http://www.discferret.com/temp/st506/dat.log_histogram.png Scatter graph: http://www.discferret.com/temp/st506/dat.scatter.png The log-histogram shows a very distinctive MFM timing pattern (three peaks at 1T, 1.5T and 2T), and the scatter-graph shows that the timing data is split into 17 distinctive segments: the sectors. So what's the catch? 1) The DiscFerret PSU doesn't have enough grunt to run a Winchester drive (or at least a 5.25 half-height like the Wren) and a 3.5in floppy drive at the same time. This is an academic point, because you need an adapter board to hook the 'Ferret up to the ST506 drive, and you can't have both a floppy drive and the adapter plugged in at the same time. 2) I haven't got the software decoder working. Yet. I need to play with the sync-word scanner -- the WD2010 controller chip does strange things to the IDENT flag byte. Adding a few don't-care bits to the mask and implementing a 16bit CRC should sort this out. The data looks good, but I can't prove it until I make MagScan read it. I've made a few modifications to the Microcode too: - The acquisition and RAM Write clocks have been increased to 100MHz. This provides a bit more timing resolution, and makes it a little easier to convert from a timing count to an absolute time (especially if you're reading a timing histogram and don't have a calculator). - The data separator has been partly re-implemented. I've ditched the shift-register counter in the DPLL and replaced it with a parameterised binary counter. Now the sync-word detector can run from almost any reasonable input clock rate. I've got it running at 40MHz at the moment (it used to run at 32MHz). - A FIFO has been added between the data sources (acquisition module and parallel port) and the memory write controller. I did this because there was a risk that a timing value could be lost if a transition occurred within 5 or 6 clocks of a RAM write (the previous transition, or a counter overflow). Still to do: - Make the current acquisition abort if the FIFO overflows - Decouple the acquisition and memory-write clocks. The RAM has a 10ns access time (i.e. 100MHz), and I'd like to see if the acquisition engine can be made to go faster. This should work as long as it doesn't get hit with more than 256 fast transitions in a burst... The DPLL change came about because the FPGA I'm using only allows the on-chip PLLs to be driven from a global clock input, and only one PLL can use the GCK. So for each PLL you want to use, you have to provide a separate GCK... This is a fairly easy board tweak (you bridge two pins on the FPGA with wire or solder), but it'll break backwards compatibility... :( So a good day was had by all, it seems :) The new Microcode is in the usual place (the Mercurial repository). I'll push a compiled version into the Firmware repository in the next couple of minutes. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 23:32:33 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 00:32:33 -0500 Subject: databooks (was Re: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4D4478C8.9070702@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 4:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > ... Everyone I knew back in the databook era would make up a > phony company name, and then get flooded with databooks, industrial > periodicals, and best of all, samples! I figured that one out when I was about 16. I needed a fake company name or I couldn't ever get datasheets, etc. After I invented one, the stuff all flooded in (mostly, I was interested in RCA COSMAC stuff and Synertek/Rockwell 6502-family stuff, though the preliminary 68000 datasheet I latched onto held specs beyond my wildest 8-bit dreams). > I still get junkmail with the company name I came up with 28 years ago! Me too. -ethan From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 23:49:14 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 23:49:14 -0600 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters (part deux) Message-ID: Can some of you EE types talk about the (in)efficiency of stepdown transformers? Like say a 2000 watt 220 to 110 transformer. How bad are they? brian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 00:08:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 01:08:30 -0500 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters (part deux) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ?Can some of you EE types talk about the (in)efficiency of stepdown > transformers? ?Like say a 2000 watt 220 to 110 transformer. How bad > are they? Not bad enough to worry about it. -- Will From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Sun Jan 30 00:54:57 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 22:54:57 -0800 Subject: HP-85 Thermal Paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anybody need this? I have a box here, w/ two rolls. $6 plus postage North America only. Jeff ____________________________________________________________ TRY FREE IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if5 Capture screenshots, upload images, edit and send them to your friends through IMs, post on Twitter?, Facebook?, MySpace?, LinkedIn? ? FAST! From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 30 04:12:57 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:12:57 +0100 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... Message-ID: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch> Had another ADM3a come in, again with severe screen rot. Unlike the first time i now have successfully separated the faceplate from the CRT. Question is of course how to get it back on again. Anybody successfully done this ? I know screenrot has come up often here, but I do not believe someone presented a working solution yet. Jos Dreesen From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 30 07:49:11 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 08:49:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch> References: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jan 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Had another ADM3a come in, again with severe screen rot. > Unlike the first time i now have successfully separated the faceplate from > the CRT. > Question is of course how to get it back on again. > Anybody successfully done this ? What method did you use to remove the shield? I'd like to try this on a HP 2647A. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Sun Jan 30 07:58:25 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 14:58:25 +0100 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: References: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4D456E81.8000703@bluewin.ch> On 01/30/2011 02:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 30 Jan 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: > >> Had another ADM3a come in, again with severe screen rot. >> Unlike the first time i now have successfully separated the faceplate from the CRT. >> Question is of course how to get it back on again. >> Anybody successfully done this ? > > What method did you use to remove the shield? I'd like to try this on a HP 2647A. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > A thin flexible metal ruler and lots of time (2-3 hrs). Jos From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 30 08:44:35 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 06:44:35 -0800 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters (part deux) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > From: brianlanning at gmail.com > > Can some of you EE types talk about the (in)efficiency of stepdown > transformers? Like say a 2000 watt 220 to 110 transformer. How bad > are they? > > brian Transformers have several sources of loss. One is core eddy currents. This is controlled by the size of the wire. Another is from the resistance of the wire. The last is a combination of the primary wire resistance and the phase current. This is related to the inductance of the windings. Dwight From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 30 09:01:05 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 07:01:05 -0800 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: <4D456E81.8000703@bluewin.ch> References: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch>, , <4D456E81.8000703@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: > From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch > > On 01/30/2011 02:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > >> Had another ADM3a come in, again with severe screen rot. > >> Unlike the first time i now have successfully separated the faceplate from the CRT. > >> Question is of course how to get it back on again. > >> Anybody successfully done this ? > > > > What method did you use to remove the shield? I'd like to try this on a HP 2647A. > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > > > A thin flexible metal ruler and lots of time (2-3 hrs). > > Jos > Hi I'm told a thin piece of music wire or guitar string is what to use. Most just leave the shield off. I'm not sure if one could replace is without some heavy duty vacuum equipment. Dwight From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 30 09:24:14 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:24:14 -0500 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters (part deux) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201101301024.14606.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, January 30, 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > Can some of you EE types talk about the (in)efficiency of stepdown > transformers? Like say a 2000 watt 220 to 110 transformer. How bad > are they? More or less, what Will said. Typical is 95% efficiency. At low loadings, they'll have a crappy power factor (as they'll have a relatively high inductive load compared to real power being used), but unless you're a large-scale energy user (ie, use Megawatts of power), you don't care, and the utility won't be billing you for anything but the real power. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 30 09:08:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 15:08:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: databooks (was Re: MC14500 / was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Jan 29, 11 04:57:13 pm Message-ID: > > > Despite there being prices printed on the covers of some databooks, > > customers didn't buy them. =A0The sales reps and distributors all but for= > ced > > them onto customers. > > > > The prices were what other people such as hobbyists paid. > > I doubt there were many hobbyists that actually purchased those > databooks. Everyone I knew back in the databook era would make up a > phony company name, and then get flooded with databooks, industrial > periodicals, and best of all, samples! Yes, all those tech reps knew > that they were phony companies, and most of what they were handing out > for free would yield nothing, but they also knew that a few of those > freebies might pay back in a big way. > > I still get junkmail with the company name I came up with 28 years ago! > > Basically, only fools paid the cover price for databooks or the industrial = > rags. If you don't stop calling me a fool, I am liable to LART you... I think thisis something that (as ever) varies by country. Over here it was much harder to get free copies of databooks. I know that uniersity departments didn't get them for free in many cases (because I had to justify wanting to spend money on some). I also know they were not given out free to all companies (my father, who worked for a large UK company, albeit nothing to do with electronics, tried to get databooks for me when I was still at school (and thus when \pounds 20 or whatever was a significant amount of money) only to be told -- on several occasions -- that the company he worked for was not an electronics company, so databooks would not be supplied free of charge). Its also worth noting that the large trade elecrtronc component suppliers, who at the time didn't sell to hobbyists, sold databooks in their catalogues. Presumably enough people bought them to make them worth stocking. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 10:57:30 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 10:57:30 -0600 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D45987A.5010209@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Interesting - presumably the colour PAL board also does the bus termination >> (my bus terminator card's also labelled as being for black and white video, >> although components for that aspect aren't fitted - presumably it was used on >> 40x25 systems without the hi-res option) > > I am a little puzzled. AFAIK you can make a minimal system with no bus > cable or termiantor atall -- just the CPU board linked ot the 40 column > VDU. Video output comes from the VDU card. Actually yes, that would likely make sense, if the video's all running via the connector on the CPU board - the system bus therefore wouldn't be hooked to anything and so might not need termination. > Do you have any idea waht sort of components could be fitted on the > terminator bord? Are there spaces for (DIL) ICs, or jsut discretes? For the video portion: modulator, "video in" and "video out" sockets (two ground pins on each and one for signal), and then a handful of discretes. For the termination portion: 4 capacitors, 1 resistor, 3 diodes, a 16-pin IC that's likely a resistor network, and two 18-pin ICs that have had their markings ground off (bastards!). It actually says "Black and white modulator / bus terminator board" and then "BWM 1/1" on the PCB which for RML is unusual - I don't think any of their other boards list their purpose like that. Copyright date is 1981, so it's not like it's a very early board or anything. (the PCB itself is a pale green and quite transparent - in my photo I can see PCB traces for the reverse side - which is different to all the other RML boards that I've seen, too) I wonder if it hints at there being another variant of the 40x25 video board around which doesn't have the modulator on-board? Or maybe the terminator board that I have was a low production run for some bespoke RML client, and they had some existing video equipment that wouldn't work with the stock setup? >>>> ... plus an "RGB board" mounted on the back panel, which has RGBS BNC outputs >>>> and hooks to the 26-way header on VDU #2. VDU #1 and VDU #2 are connected >>>> together via 16-way DIL headers on the boards. >>> I don't have that. >> Odd, I always assumed it was a standard part of hi-res functionality. Any >> chance of some board photos of the VDU boards sometime? > > The 16 wire cable is part of the hi-res system, and the machine can't run > properly without it. I wonder if the OP was refering to the RGB output > module -- it's quite possible to have a hi-res machine without that fitted. Yes, that was my assumption, that Adrian just doesn't have the RGB board. I thought that all machines with hi-res had that output board too, but that's just from observation of surviving machines, and RML seemed very good at churning out systems tailored to the customer's individual needs. (I actually run my machine without the RGB output board plugged in because it has a short somewhere and I've never got the tuits together to fix it) >>> Does it have a case fan? What about voltage regulators mounted on the rear of >> the case? The latter were early machines I think and quite uncommon. Typical >> machines have the voltage regs internally and a chassis fan fitted, although I >> know there's at least one machine out there with internal regs and no >> forced-air cooling. > > I am pretty sure my 380Z (and all the ones I used at school) has the > voltage reguatlors mounted internally (on the metal cover over the PSU > area) and a fan. Yes, those are by far the most common. Someone popped up on the RML mailing list a few weeks back with a system with internal regs that appeared to have never had a chassis fan fitted, though (maybe it's possible to get away with that with a minimal-config, cassette-only system). > There are at least 2 versions ofthe 5.25" machine. One has a pair > offull-heigfht drives fitted horizotnally, the otehr has a pair of 2/3 > height (!) drives mounted vertically. The latter seems more common. That's interesting. Mine has the horizontal drives, and I always thought of those as being the most common :-) I think I did a detailed inventory of the systems at Bletchley and emailed it to someone many moons ago - I'll have to see if I can dig that out. Of the five or six systems they had, I don't think any two were quite alike. >> I'm not sure how close to the limit the systems typically run - .75A might >> work I suppose, just for testing (and at least for soak-testing the PSU under >> a dummy load, if you decide to do that) > > I am pretty sure the PSU will draw less than 750mA with no load. I don't > know about the switch-on surge though a 750mA anti-surge fuse would > probably be OL< a quick blow one may not be. I suppose we're only a day away from Adrian being able to get the correct fuse now, so maybe he can handle waiting :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 11:10:56 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:10:56 -0600 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D459BA0.6030005@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > Incidnetlaly, I've just rememberd I ahve a somwaht odd RML380Z board > soemwhere. It's got a bit off address deocding logic on it, > interconnected by PCB tracks. And 3 (I think) Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC in > wire-wrap sockets. The Z80 bus linesare are connected to the 380Z bus > connector, etc. the port lines and the counter/timer signals go nowhere. > There's also a little prototyping area on the board and space to fit some > header plugs. The idea is that you make your own custom interfce by > adding the logic you need and wire-wrapping it to the PIO and CTC pins. > Ans wire-wrap it to a header plug to connect a cable to the peripheral. Hmm, is there any way you can get a scan/photo to me? I'd love to see that. I've seen another system with an analogue board inside, and enough guts for six serial ports. My fileserver system had a Z-net board fitted for networking to the 480Z clients, and a SASI interface board. > I would love to find some of the other board too. There was rumoured to > be an GPIB board. And an Econet interface. Oh, and a scheamtic of the > cassette control box would be intreresting. GPIB I can imagine - I've never heard of an Econet interface, though; that would be an interesting find (as would any software to make use of it). I wonder if that was a commercial offering (I'm surprised that RML would be allowed without Acorn getting upset - maybe via a third party, though?) or if it was someone's homebrew... > Fuses generally blow for a reason. I asusme this is a mains fuse (in > series with the live side of the mains), in which case the problem could > be a short on the primary side (e.g. a filter capacitor, if they're after > the fuse), or a short on the seondary side (redtifer diode, smoothing > capacitor, etc0. That's true - I was thinking that Adrian had a fault somewhere in one of the boards, but I suppose it could just as easily be in the PSU itself (and easy to determine as I'm pretty sure the RML supplies are simple enough to run with no load connected) > Of course findign a 100W bulb these days is a problem :-( Yes, getting that way here, too! Maybe it's possible to get a heat lamp bulb of the right wattage, though. The one I have here (to stop the dogs freezing at night) is 250W, but I suspect they do lower-wattage ones, too. As they're intended to release lots of "wasteful" heat, I don't think there are any plans to ban them... cheers Jules From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jan 30 12:16:59 2011 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 12:16:59 -0600 Subject: FS: 1200 baud external modem Message-ID: FS: one "BSR 1207" external modem. New in the (very old) box. I assume it's 1200 baud. Runs on 120 vac. Can send pic to interested parties. $4.99 plus shipping (probably around $3-4, it's light) from US zip 65775. There's one on that auction place right now 220714815493 for the same price, but he wants $16 shipping! thanks Charles From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 30 12:06:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:06:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: <4D45987A.5010209@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 30, 11 10:57:30 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Interesting - presumably the colour PAL board also does the bus termination > >> (my bus terminator card's also labelled as being for black and white video, > >> although components for that aspect aren't fitted - presumably it was used on > >> 40x25 systems without the hi-res option) > > > > I am a little puzzled. AFAIK you can make a minimal system with no bus > > cable or termiantor atall -- just the CPU board linked ot the 40 column > > VDU. Video output comes from the VDU card. > > Actually yes, that would likely make sense, if the video's all running via the > connector on the CPU board - the system bus therefore wouldn't be hooked to > anything and so might not need termination. Indeed.. I have an idea you can make a cassette-based system that way. > > > Do you have any idea waht sort of components could be fitted on the > > terminator bord? Are there spaces for (DIL) ICs, or jsut discretes? > > For the video portion: modulator, "video in" and "video out" sockets (two > ground pins on each and one for signal), and then a handful of discretes. > > For the termination portion: 4 capacitors, 1 resistor, 3 diodes, a 16-pin IC > that's likely a resistor network, and two 18-pin ICs that have had their > markings ground off (bastards!). Hmm.. I would want to trce this out. The 18 pin ICs don't sound like resistor networks (strange number of pins), but perhaps theyr'e active termiantors or something like that. I can't think of any other 18 pin IC that would be used on a termiantor. I wonder if the modualtor section is to add UHF outptu to the hi-res board. In other words you loop the composite output from the hi-res board throug hthe modualtor board and then to the composite output on the back, and the board picks off the signal and feeds it to the modualtor. > > It actually says "Black and white modulator / bus terminator board" and then > "BWM 1/1" on the PCB which for RML is unusual - I don't think any of their > other boards list their purpose like that. Copyright date is 1981, so it's not > like it's a very early board or anything. (the PCB itself is a pale green and > quite transparent - in my photo I can see PCB traces for the reverse side - > which is different to all the other RML boards that I've seen, too) Maybe third-party? > > I wonder if it hints at there being another variant of the 40x25 video board > around which doesn't have the modulator on-board? Or maybe the terminator Not that I know of. The 80 column one doenst' ahve a modulator AFAIK, but then 80 column text ona TV is likely to be unreadable anyway. My guess is that it's for the hi-res output. > Yes, that was my assumption, that Adrian just doesn't have the RGB board. I > thought that all machines with hi-res had that output board too, but that's No. We had 380Z when I was at school, and they all had hi-res, mono monitors (litlte 9" Hitachi ones) and no RGB boards. I remeber in my final year at school converting the school's Barco monitor to have RGB inputs and fitting the RGB output board in one of the 380Zs. The 380Z I picked up at a radio rally had the RGB board in it. > > There are at least 2 versions ofthe 5.25" machine. One has a pair > > offull-heigfht drives fitted horizotnally, the otehr has a pair of 2/3 > > height (!) drives mounted vertically. The latter seems more common. > > That's interesting. Mine has the horizontal drives, and I always thought of > those as being the most common :-) I think I did a detailed inventory of the I have no real data. Only that at school we had 4 machines (IIRC), 3 had the vertical drives ,the other had horizontal drives. The one I got at the rally has vertical drives. I have no real idea how many of each were made, or how many survive. > systems at Bletchley and emailed it to someone many moons ago - I'll have to > see if I can dig that out. Of the five or six systems they had, I don't think > any two were quite alike. That sounds like RML :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 30 12:46:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 18:46:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: <4D459BA0.6030005@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 30, 11 11:10:56 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Incidnetlaly, I've just rememberd I ahve a somwaht odd RML380Z board > > soemwhere. It's got a bit off address deocding logic on it, > > interconnected by PCB tracks. And 3 (I think) Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC in > > wire-wrap sockets. The Z80 bus linesare are connected to the 380Z bus > > connector, etc. the port lines and the counter/timer signals go nowhere. > > There's also a little prototyping area on the board and space to fit some > > header plugs. The idea is that you make your own custom interfce by > > adding the logic you need and wire-wrapping it to the PIO and CTC pins. > > Ans wire-wrap it to a header plug to connect a cable to the peripheral. > > Hmm, is there any way you can get a scan/photo to me? I'd love to see that. Well, I've not got a digital camera yet :-). I wonder if I could convince an HPCC member to photograph it for me at a meeting. Of course this means finding the darn board... > I've seen another system with an analogue board inside, and enough guts for > six serial ports. IIRC, at least one of the serial port boards was a disk cotnroller/serial board with the former circuitry not fitted. There was also an 'intellegent' disk cotnroller/serial board which had a Z80 on it, I think that was used, with different ROMs, as the controller in the 480Z disk unit (which had a synchronous RS232 interface to the host). What I have never seen are any of the currnet loop serial options which were supposed to exist. > > I would love to find some of the other board too. There was rumoured to > > be an GPIB board. And an Econet interface. Oh, and a scheamtic of the > > cassette control box would be intreresting. > > GPIB I can imagine - I've never heard of an Econet interface, though; that IIRC most, if not all, of the 380Zhs have rear panel cutouts for the GPIB connecotr and the 'system controller enable/disable' switch. Whether the board ever made it into production I don't know. > would be an interesting find (as would any software to make use of it). I > wonder if that was a commercial offering (I'm surprised that RML would be > allowed without Acorn getting upset - maybe via a third party, though?) or if > it was someone's homebrew... I haev never seen it, but 'The Econet Micro Guide' by C. Dawkins says : 'Econet hardware has been impleemnted for the Apple ][, the Nascoms 1 and 2, the Research Machins 380Z and 480Z, S100 bus machines and all Acorn computers, but only the last 4 are commecially available.' A little later it says 'The 380Z/480Z/S100 interfaces have the same driver, receiver, collision and idle detect circuiry as the BBC -- which at least ensures electrical compatibility -- but the ADLC functions are performed by the SIO chip. Only aobut half the hardware on the 380Z board is required for the Econet ; the rest is a 64K RAM expansion and a ROM socket, with the necessary decoding for the RAM to be paged as required. One important use for this paged RAM is when the 380Z is acting as a fileserver -- the RAM on the Econet board then provides cache memory which considerably speeds up opeeration.' The 'ADLC' is the 6854 of course, the 'SIO' is a Z80-SIO chip. > > > Fuses generally blow for a reason. I asusme this is a mains fuse (in > > series with the live side of the mains), in which case the problem could > > be a short on the primary side (e.g. a filter capacitor, if they're after > > the fuse), or a short on the seondary side (redtifer diode, smoothing > > capacitor, etc0. > > That's true - I was thinking that Adrian had a fault somewhere in one of the > boards, but I suppose it could just as easily be in the PSU itself (and easy Does a short on a power rail in a 380Z blow the mains fuse? It'll cause the apporopraite regulator to fold back and limit the output current, but that current may well not be enough to blow the mains fuse. My first guess is that the fuse blows whenre there's a major fault in the PSU (rectifiers or smoothing capacitors, possibly). > to determine as I'm pretty sure the RML supplies are simple enough to run with > no load connected) Indeed they are. > > > Of course findign a 100W bulb these days is a problem :-( > > Yes, getting that way here, too! Maybe it's possible to get a heat lamp bulb > of the right wattage, though. The one I have here (to stop the dogs freezing The advnatage of a normal light bulb is the positive temprature coefficient of the filament, and the fact that it will get hot enoguh for that to make a different. I am not sure if that applies to heat bulbs, though. It should apply to tungsten-halogen bulbs, and AFAIK those hve not been banned. I also believe the ban only applies to using bubls for domestic lighting, so it's quite legal to use one as a current limiter -- if you can get one. -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Jan 30 13:22:19 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:22:19 -0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <7861AEC943C34BFEBF8FAB4ACD5A4148@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > banned. I also believe the ban only applies to using bubls > for domestic > lighting, so it's quite legal to use one as a current limiter -- if > you can get one. If you can get one, I'm almost certain you can use it for anything you like, including domestic lighting. The ban is on *selling* them for domestic use. When this last cropped up I checked and the local electrical "trade suppliers" had rough service bulbs that would do quite nicely I think. If you're thinking of stocking up, do so soon: I noticed that that the local B&Q are phasing out (no pun etc. ...) filament bulbs. I presume the other "sheds" are doing so too (or have already done so). Antonio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Jan 30 16:12:10 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:12:10 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: References: <001801cbadce$5e8eb4b0$1bac1e10$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 6, 11 06:20:14 pm Message-ID: <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 06 January 2011 20:31 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working > > > > > A while back I mentioned that I have a MicroVAX 3400 with one of the > > H7868 PSUs not wanting to work (green light fails to come on). I have > > just tried the "faulty" PSU in a MicroVAX 3500 and it works just fine. > > I took a PSU from the 3500 and put it in the 3400 and it does not work > > in the 3400 either, only in the 3500. So clearly there is something > > else that is causing the problem and I am looking for suggestions, > > especially as the machine is in an awkward location and hard to > > dismantle speculatively. As a reminder this machine was working fine > > and I had not done anything at all to it prior to its failure, I had not moved > it, changed any components or anything. > > My first thoguht is the obvious one, taht something in the 3400 is shorted > and overloading one of the outputs of the PSU that isn't coming on. > > Could it be something as trivial (but not trivial to find!) as a decoupling > capacitor that's shorted? > > -tony I found the problem was indeed the CPU board. I tested the capacitors with a multimeter and found one to be shorted as the resistance measured zero. While measuring other similar capacitors I found the resistance to be about 20ohms on the rest, but one seems to be open circuit. The replacement capacitor I bought (but have not yet fitted) also seems to be open circuit. I tested the capacitors on a spare CPU board I have and they too were generally about 20ohms. What values should I expect for resistance? Have I got a load of capacitors which are all about to fail? Regards Rob From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jan 30 21:01:12 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:01:12 -0500 Subject: Usenet Message-ID: <4D4625F8.3070203@compsys.to> I assume that a few of the list members still follow specific Usenet sites. A few days ago, I became aware of an additional free server for many TEXT ONLY sites. I don't want to flood them with subscriptions, so if you are a list member send me a post privately. At present, I subscribe to 2 such servers. At least one, probably both, accept posts via the Netscape browser under W98 SE which is what I use. I can't vouch for anything else, but likely IE is also acceptable. Jerome Fine From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 30 21:30:11 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 03:30:11 +0000 Subject: Any error correction gurus in the audience? Message-ID: <4D462CC3.4090402@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, As the subject says: are there any EDC/ECC code experts hanging around on the list? I'm working on implementing the 4-byte (32-bit) ECC code Western Digital used on the WD2010 Winchester HDD Controller IC. This appears to be an implementation of the ECC scheme explained in section 7.6 of National Semiconductor's "Disk Interface Design Guide and User's Manual" (appnote AN-413). It looks like the ECC scheme is based on running a CRC forwards over the data to produce a 32-bit CRC, which is used to validate the data in the same way the 16-bit CRC validates the IDAM. Error correction apparently operates by running the CRC in reverse using an "inverse polynomial". I can't see how this could work -- isn't a CRC by its very nature a one-way operation? The application note calls this a "Glover 140A0443" code, but doesn't bother to reference any papers, books or similar on the subject. There's an example on how to program NSC's controller chips to use the code, but nothing on the mathematical background behind it. For instance: how does it work, and why is the maximum correctable error burst 5 bits long? Does anyone recognise this polynomial? x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + 1 aka. x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0 or: 0x140A0443 It's not a standard CRC32 polynomial (according to Das Wiki), and I don't *think* it's a Fire code... though I've been looking for the original paper on those (P. Fire, "A class of multiple-error-correcting binary codes for non-independent errors". Sylvania Reports RSL-E-2, Sylvania Reconnaissance Systems, Mountain View, California, 1959) and haven't had any success -- a few hits on Citeseer, but it appears all copies of the paper have vanished into thin air. What I'd really like to find out is more about how this algorithm works... a model implementation (e.g. in C, Python or similar) would be extremely useful, but at this point even a basic worked example ("here's a chunk of data, now watch what happens if we flip some bits, and here's how we fix it") would be extremely useful... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 21:38:56 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 21:38:56 -0600 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 Message-ID: In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When we need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for safety. Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in the appliance. But I think european 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those two 110 lines? If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be impossible to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european 220. Is this right? brian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 30 21:43:44 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 19:43:44 -0800 Subject: Any error correction gurus in the audience? In-Reply-To: <4D462CC3.4090402@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D462CC3.4090402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D45BF70.6613.24D3B52@cclist.sydex.com> The "Glover" is almost certainly Neal Glover, he of Cirrus Logic and the disk drive ECC codes. I don't know if his stuff would be used in an old WD controller, but at least you have a start with a name. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 30 21:52:46 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 22:52:46 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, January 30, 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When we > need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we > get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 > wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for > safety. Some things don't have a separate neutral line, in which case they don't require 120V power. > Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe > I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in > the appliance. Yes, some do that. You can always wire in a 240V to 120V step-down transformer to run the extra bits. It's rarely much power (timers, clocks, etc), so you probably could get away with a 100W or so step-down transformer, which should be pretty cheap. > But I think european 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg > delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? > Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those > two 110 lines? Right, it's ~240V to ground instead of ~120V to ground. As I understand it, you're a lot more likely to run into 3 phase power (415/240V) than split-phase single phase power (480/240V), because of how power is usually distributed. > If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be > impossible to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european > 220. Is this right? No, usually at most you need a small step-down transformer. OTOH, it may not be legal to connect such an appliance to european power, for safety reasons, so check your local codes. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 22:05:46 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:05:46 +0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, On 31/01/2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When we > need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we > get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 > wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for > safety. This doesn't look quite right to me, but it is probably close enough for most applications. > Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe > I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in > the appliance. > > But I think european 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg > delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? > Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those > two 110 lines? In Europe, a typical property is supplied with a single 230V RMS AC single phase and neutral supply. If you pay enough money and/or are small industrial etc, you can get a three phase and neutral supply. Each phase is 230V RMS AC phase to neutral, 400V RMS AC phase to phase. The only way to get 110V RMS AC is through a stepdown transformer. > If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be impossible > to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european 220. Is this > right? I don't know enough about american 220V applicances. Many switch mode power supplies will work happliy with both 230V and 110V. The 110/230 switch only ever seemed to switch in a secondary capacitor after the bridge rectifier for the HV DC supply to the switching circuitry. I guess it was difficult to get 300VDC+ capacitors for a while. Adding a second capacitor (in series) meant that each capacitor only ever saw about 1/2 the DC voltage, and hence kept the smoke in. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 31 01:50:25 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:50:25 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: H, > > But I think European 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg > delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? > Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those > two 110 lines? Here in the Netherlands, most domestic houses do have a single leg 240V power. For an additional 'connection fee' you can get 3 phase power delivered. I have 3 phase power at home, guess why.... Ed > > If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be impossible > to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european 220. Is this > right? > > brian > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 31 03:18:17 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:18:17 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000901cbc127$d10852a0$7318f7e0$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens E. Groenenberg Verzonden: maandag 31 januari 2011 8:50 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: OT: american vs european 220 H, > > But I think European 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg > delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? > Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those > two 110 lines? Here in the Netherlands, most domestic houses do have a single leg 240V power. For an additional 'connection fee' you can get 3 phase power delivered. I have 3 phase power at home, guess why.... Ed > > If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be impossible > to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european 220. Is this > right? > > brian > In most western Europe countries the power systems are 3-fase 230V with a 180 degrees phase-shift. Neutral is earthed at the distribution (10kV ->230V) transformer . So only the phase(brown) wire has a voltage potential to earth. The voltage between earth, neutral and the other legs is always 230V AC and between the 3 phase legs 400V AC. Most new houses in NL are wired for a 3 phase-system but at the power inlet just one leg is fused so the owner sees a 1 phase-system, but it easy (for the power company) to upgrade to a 3 phase-system ( 2 fuses and a new powermeter). And yes I do have a 3-phase system with also a separate earth system for measurement systems. -Rik -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From trebor77 at execpc.com Mon Jan 31 06:32:24 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (trebor77 at execpc.com) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:32:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: ADM3A Screen Rot Message-ID: <1114.69.95.233.6.1296477144.squirrel@newmail.core.com> I Have Three ADM3A's that sat in my Barn for Years. The Field mice made there home in two of them. One of those has a bad motherboard that might not be salvagable [Mouse Crap all over it] though I might soak it in warm water come Spring then blow dry and treat with 90% Isoprpyl alcohol but there is bound to be some Corrosion. One is still in the Barn but I plan on bringing it in when it gets WARM and see if I can SWAP the Top W/the CRT onto the one Unit that has a partially working M/B. It lights up my Breakout Box but Shows no Cursor but the tube Dies down to a Spot in the Middle when Turned off. I tried the one from the Bad M/B and it just Buzzed. If anyone is interested in the CRT's let me Know. If I can't get one working I can get something for the Aluminum Casings. But Maybe someone can use the CRT's. They look OK to me but I'm not familiar with SCREEN ROT. Shipping the whole Unit would be just to expensive. Maybe the One M/B is still useable???? Bob in Wisconsin From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jan 31 06:48:30 2011 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 07:48:30 -0500 Subject: RSTS V7.0 source in any form? In-Reply-To: (sfid-20110126_022333_696838_A2BF3B43) References: (sfid-20110126_022333_696838_A2BF3B43) Message-ID: <4D46AF9E.3050605@heeltoe.com> I was searching the web for any sort of RSTS source and I could not find any. Does anyone have sources (in any form) for RSTS V7.0? I'd like to look a the first part of the boot, basically the code which runs right after the boot sector (which I think is init.sys) Was this often distributed as hard copy printouts or microfiche? If so, anyone have any scans? thanks -brad From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 31 07:36:51 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 05:36:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <497198.3392.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 1/30/11, Jos Dreesen wrote: > Had another ADM3a come in, again with > severe screen rot. > Unlike the first time i now have successfully separated the > faceplate from the CRT. > Question is of course how to get it back on again. > Anybody successfully done this ? > > I know screenrot has come up often here, but I do not > believe someone presented a working solution yet. > I'm pretty sure I've posted about it before. But, basically, once you've cleaned all the gunky PVA compound off the face of the tube and the back of the faceplate, you just stick the faceplate back on with packing tape around the edges. The "screen rot" problem is real common with those of us that collect old TV sets - the same thing happens to old color picture tubes (21FJP22, etc). It's frequently called "cataracts". To remove the faceplate on those tubes, take the tube out and put it in a bucket or something that supports it by the bell, protecting the neck and allowing you to work on the face. Then, heat the faceplate with a heat gun to soften the PVA. Sometimes you can get it to just fall off, other times it takes prodding. Careful not to break the faceplate, and wear goggles (just in case something goes FOOMP!) There are different kinds of PVA compound - Zenith made tubes have one that does not soften with heat. That you have to slice off with wire - I know some people use a nichrome wire powered by a car battery. Another trick I've heard of is to simply let the tube sit face down in water for a few weeks. Never tried it though. In the ADM3's I have done, the PVA was already so bad that the faceplate practically fell off. Once you have it all clean, just put the faceplate back on, secured at the edges with packing tape or similar. It's tinted, and improves contrast. Technically, the faceplate is bonded as a means to help hold the faceplate together in the event of implosion, and I don't have any idea if just having it taped over the front will do any good. In any event, I don't expect a modern tube like the ADM3's to simply go FOOMP for no good reason. Also, if the tube is really bad, you can replace it with one from a black and white television set. Same pinout. -Ian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 31 07:56:15 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 13:56:15 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <000901cbc127$d10852a0$7318f7e0$@xs4all.nl> References: <000901cbc127$d10852a0$7318f7e0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4D46BF7F.8070202@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2011 09:18, Rik Bos wrote: > In most western Europe countries the power systems are 3-fase 230V with a > 180 degrees phase-shift. 120-degree phase difference, not 180 :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 09:28:01 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:28:01 -0600 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D46D501.7010302@gmail.com> Brian Lanning wrote: > Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe > I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in > the appliance. Our clothes dryer runs the drum motor from one leg and the heaters / timer from the other - there's not really any "electronics" (the timer's a simple switch/cam thing driven by a small motor) but it seems sensible that other high-draw appliances might run different parts via different 110V legs, too. > But I think european 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg > delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? > Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those > two 110 lines? In the UK it was typically three 220V [1] phases to the street, I believe - but only one of those would then make it as far as the house (resulting in certain faults causing just part of the street to go dead as a phase was lost :-) [1] or 230V, or 240V... I can never remember exactly. Historically the UK was on 240V, but they harmonised with the rest of Europe which, IIRC, is 230V. > If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be impossible > to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european 220. Is this > right? As others said, a step-down would work - but the number of 220V US appliances are relatively few IME, and those that are may not require the split-power arrangement to function. One gotcha is that US power is 60Hz and Europe 50Hz, which might have an effect on anything that relies on line frequency for timing. cheers Jules From gyorpb at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 09:43:38 2011 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:43:38 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D46D501.7010302@gmail.com> References: <4D46D501.7010302@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 31 January 2011 16:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > [1] or 230V, or 240V... I can never remember exactly. Historically the UK > was on 240V, but they harmonised with the rest of Europe which, IIRC, is > 230V. Historically, the Britain was 240V, while mainland Europe was (predominantly) 220V, as were Ireland and Northern Ireland. EU regulation harmonised that to 230V. Not that it makes much of a difference, really. .tsooJ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 31 10:01:30 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:01:30 -0800 Subject: Any error correction gurus in the audience? In-Reply-To: <4D462CC3.4090402@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D462CC3.4090402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 03:30:11 +0000 > From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Any error correction gurus in the audience? > > Hi guys, > > As the subject says: are there any EDC/ECC code experts hanging around > on the list? > > I'm working on implementing the 4-byte (32-bit) ECC code Western Digital > used on the WD2010 Winchester HDD Controller IC. This appears to be an > implementation of the ECC scheme explained in section 7.6 of National > Semiconductor's "Disk Interface Design Guide and User's Manual" (appnote > AN-413). > > It looks like the ECC scheme is based on running a CRC forwards over the > data to produce a 32-bit CRC, which is used to validate the data in the > same way the 16-bit CRC validates the IDAM. Error correction apparently > operates by running the CRC in reverse using an "inverse polynomial". I > can't see how this could work -- isn't a CRC by its very nature a > one-way operation? > ---snip--- Hi The CRC operation is deterministic. That means one can play it forwards and backward. The are two main ways of doing the corrections. One is to break it into its prime factors and use the part with the largest span of zeros in the polynomial to determine the error mask and the other partials to determine the offset, based on the Chinese remainder theorum. It is a little complicated to describe but is what most of the crc chips used. The other method is what you are seeing, playing the crc backwards with no data coming in ( zeros for the data ) until the eror mask is seen. the applying that mask to the data. What I mean by the error mask is that in the polynomial, there is a span of zeros. If you play it backwards until there are zeros in all but the center portion where the zeros are, you have found the error mask. Shifting it until is would be at the input edge of the polynomial would give you the offset. When playing backwards, you are only un-inputting zeros. To tell you how to do it, you do the shift and xor in reverse order. Run a CRC with some data in the sum, with zeros as input data forwardwards and you'll see how on one can run it backwards by shift and xor to get the same values going backwards. If you go beyond the data size backwards without finding an error mask, the error burst was too large and could not be corrected. I hope this makes some sense? Dwight From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 10:33:32 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:33:32 -0600 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D46E45C.6090202@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Incidnetlaly, I've just rememberd I ahve a somwaht odd RML380Z board >>> soemwhere. It's got a bit off address deocding logic on it, >>> interconnected by PCB tracks. And 3 (I think) Z80-PIOs and a Z80-CTC in >>> wire-wrap sockets. The Z80 bus linesare are connected to the 380Z bus >>> connector, etc. the port lines and the counter/timer signals go nowhere. >>> There's also a little prototyping area on the board and space to fit some >>> header plugs. The idea is that you make your own custom interfce by >>> adding the logic you need and wire-wrapping it to the PIO and CTC pins. >>> Ans wire-wrap it to a header plug to connect a cable to the peripheral. >> Hmm, is there any way you can get a scan/photo to me? I'd love to see that. > > Well, I've not got a digital camera yet :-). I wonder if I could convince > an HPCC member to photograph it for me at a meeting. Of course this means > finding the darn board... That'd be great if you could at some point (or find someone with a scanner - even a potentially-blurry scan is more interesting than nothing :-) This thread's rather making me want to try to put together some form of guide to RML bits and bobs and perhaps build up a better picture of what's what. >> I've seen another system with an analogue board inside, and enough guts for >> six serial ports. > > IIRC, at least one of the serial port boards was a disk cotnroller/serial > board with the former circuitry not fitted. There was also an > 'intellegent' disk cotnroller/serial board which had a Z80 on it, I think > that was used, with different ROMs, as the controller in the 480Z disk > unit (which had a synchronous RS232 interface to the host). Yes, that's true - I've got one of the 480Z disk units and it very much looks like a 380Z board, with PCB traces / pads for a 380Z bus connector (although the connector and associated bus logic/buffers aren't fitted). It has ROM, RAM (2KB SRAM), Z80 CPU, Z80 CTC, Z80 SIO and an 8877 FDC on board. (oh, further point that I forgot to mention elsewhere - the network board in my 380Z server was a mostly-blank 380Z board with a 480Z-style network interface grafted onto it. I'm not sure if they were all like that, or if there were earlier boards - prior to the 480Z's existence - which didn't share any hardware) > What I have never seen are any of the currnet loop serial options which > were supposed to exist. > >>> I would love to find some of the other board too. There was rumoured to >>> be an GPIB board. And an Econet interface. Oh, and a scheamtic of the >>> cassette control box would be intreresting. >> GPIB I can imagine - I've never heard of an Econet interface, though; that > > IIRC most, if not all, of the 380Zhs have rear panel cutouts for the GPIB > connecotr and the 'system controller enable/disable' switch. Whether the > board ever made it into production I don't know. True, they do. I'd forgotten that GPIB is the same as IEEE-488 (all the 380Zs I recall have the port labelled on the back as the latter). > I haev never seen it, but 'The Econet Micro Guide' by C. Dawkins says : > 'Econet hardware has been impleemnted for the Apple ][, the Nascoms 1 and > 2, the Research Machins 380Z and 480Z, S100 bus machines and all Acorn > computers, but only the last 4 are commecially available.' > > A little later it says > > 'The 380Z/480Z/S100 interfaces have the same driver, receiver, collision > and idle detect circuiry as the BBC -- which at least ensures electrical > compatibility -- but the ADLC functions are performed by the SIO chip. > Only aobut half the hardware on the 380Z board is required for the > Econet ; the rest is a 64K RAM expansion and a ROM socket, with the > necessary decoding for the RAM to be paged as required. One important use > for this paged RAM is when the 380Z is acting as a fileserver -- the RAM > on the Econet board then provides cache memory which considerably speeds > up opeeration.' > > The 'ADLC' is the 6854 of course, the 'SIO' is a Z80-SIO chip. Wow, thanks for quoting that - interesting. I wonder if it was "commercially available" for long... I think companies had to licence the use of Econet technology from Acorn, and I've never seen mention on the Acorn side of RML doing that. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but I'm surprised it's not more known about, or that there isn't any apparent surviving hardware perhaps schools were either with RML or with Acorn, but rarely both) > The advnatage of a normal light bulb is the positive temprature > coefficient of the filament, and the fact that it will get hot enoguh > for that to make a different. I am not sure if that applies to heat > bulbs, though. > > It should apply to tungsten-halogen bulbs, and AFAIK those hve not been > banned. I also believe the ban only applies to using bubls for domestic > lighting, so it's quite legal to use one as a current limiter -- if you > can get one. It's frustrating - I've not seen many 'good' CFLs; they all have nasty colour-cast, take ages to come on to full brightness, and never seem to achieve nearly what the manufacturer claims in output or longevity. They won't work outdoors here (too cold in winter), and are complicated (and hence "costly") to manufacture and dispose of. Energy savings are even a bit dubious for where I live - we run the heating for 6 months of the year, much of it via resistive electric heat, so anything that incandescents lose as heat is still doing useful work. Someone, somewhere, decided that they tick a nice little 'green' box and will save the world, though. Grumble! :-) cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 31 11:17:43 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 10:17:43 -0700 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D46EEB7.3090405@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/31/2011 12:50 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > For an additional 'connection fee' you can get 3 phase power delivered. > > I have 3 phase power at home, guess why.... > > Ed Tube audio power supply ... :) From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Jan 31 11:59:42 2011 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:59:42 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D46D501.7010302@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110131175942.GE13251@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 04:43:38PM +0100, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On 31 January 2011 16:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > [1] or 230V, or 240V... I can never remember exactly. Historically the UK > > was on 240V, but they harmonised with the rest of Europe which, IIRC, is > > 230V. > > Historically, the Britain was 240V, while mainland Europe was > (predominantly) 220V, as were Ireland and Northern Ireland. EU > regulation harmonised that to 230V. Not that it makes much of a > difference, really. IIRC the trick was that the "harmonized standard" defined 230 V as the standard voltage with the tolerances large enough to cover pretty much all the voltages (220 ... 240 V) that were mostly in use at that time.a Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 31 12:32:09 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:32:09 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <20110131175942.GE13251@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <4D46D501.7010302@gmail.com> <20110131175942.GE13251@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <4D470029.70203@dunnington.plus.com> On 31/01/2011 17:59, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > IIRC the trick was that the "harmonized standard" defined 230 V as the > standard voltage with the tolerances large enough to cover pretty much all > the voltages (220 ... 240 V) that were mostly in use at that time.a Correct, in the UK it's officially 230V +10%/-6% instead of 240V +/-6%, but in practice it's generally close to 240V. At least it is for the "average" consumer; someone close to the supply transformer might actually get up to 253V and someone further down the line where the voltage has dropped might only get 216V, and still both would be within the limits. Something similar is true in other parts of Europe, of course. It makes calculations and specifications of power in water heaters and the like rather interesting: P=V^2/R so for a resistive heater the difference can be quite large. Likewise, people here often refer to 3-phase as 415V, but the standard says 400V plus/minus something. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 12:45:00 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:45:00 -0600 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: References: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch>, , <4D456E81.8000703@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <4D47032C.2060806@gmail.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I'm told a thin piece of music wire or guitar string > is what to use. > Most just leave the shield off. I'm not sure if one > could replace is without some heavy duty vacuum > equipment. > Dwight For an HP, I used some suitable resistance wire and a 12V DC power supply - it ran hot enough to assist with 'sawing' through the bond between faceplate and CRT, but not *too* hot (that being a subjective thing, but doubtless I could have used something with more power and done the job far more quickly, but I didn't want to put too much localised heat into the tube) Faceplate was reattached with just an air gap and some clear caulk around the very edges. cheers Jules From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Jan 29 14:45:41 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 29 Jan 2011 15:45:41 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration Message-ID: I pulled two RA70 disks from a pair of VAX-3500s that I have. By some miracle both drives spin up and go ready when the Operator Control Panel is connected. I was thinking that one of these drives would work nicely with the UDA50 disk controller in the 11/44 until I can get the RA81s sorted out. These drives are supposed to work with the Operator Control Panel. There is a button on the back of the drive that says Unit Number Accept. I pushed the button both before and after power up, but the RA70 does not spin up. Anyone have a manual for this drive or know how to get it work without connecting an OCP? -- Michael Thompson From james at machineroom.info Sun Jan 30 05:43:42 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 11:43:42 +0000 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info> On 29/01/2011 21:37, Tony Duell wrote: > IIRC, the Transputer is just plain weird here. You have to build up the > instruction in an internal register before you exexute it (there are > opcodes that modify this instruction register in various ways). I think > the most common instructions can be loaded in 1 byte. > > It's rather different to the multi-byte instructions on otehr processor > anyway. > > -tony > A long time ago I wrote a Java JIT compiler for the Transputer and IIRC the instructions are variable length in mutiples of 4 bits, with as Tony points out the smallest being 8 bits. It also has 3 general purpose registers (A, B & C) organised as a stack. A colleague did look at creating the code generator for a recent GCC and left the company shortly after ;) A kind soul has uploaded the ISR here if anyone is _really_ interested : http://www.transputer.net/iset/pdf/tis-acwg.pdf James From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jan 30 19:44:36 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 30 Jan 2011 20:44:36 -0500 Subject: RA81 Disks Will Not Spin up at the RICM. Message-ID: So far we have tried 5 RA81 and 1 RA80 disk at the RICM. They all have the same symptom, when you push the RUN button. The drive starts to spin up for just a few seconds, then stops and lights the FAULT light. We ran diags on one of the drives. The details are here: https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144/pdp-11-44-restoration We made sure that the heads were unlocked and the drive belt was engauged. Debug suggestions would be appreciated. -- Michael Thompson From thollowell at designdata.com Mon Jan 31 12:41:32 2011 From: thollowell at designdata.com (Thomas Hollowell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 13:41:32 -0500 Subject: Most used toys, was Re: The late, great TRS-80 Message-ID: Hey Peter, Do you still have your MV7800? If so, do you want to sell it? Thanks, Tom From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 13:15:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 11:15:56 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D4699EC.1939.30EC89@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2011 at 12:05, Simon Fryer wrote: > On 31/01/2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When > > we need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and > > we get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate > > 110 wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for > > safety. > > This doesn't look quite right to me, but it is probably close enough > for most applications. It's been 240/120 V in the USA for years. The voltmeter on the outlet next to my system here says that the line voltage at this outlet is 122 volts. Consider the light inside an electric kitchen oven. It's always a 120V item, even though the oven elements themselves run from 240V. Strictly speaking, a US "crowfoot" outlet used for appliances is not a grounded one--there should be no continuity between the third (neutral) leg and the chassis of the appliance. It's a "grandfathered" situation--a current-carrying supply line should not also serve the purpose of protection. Some local codes require that a separate grounding wire be installed for safety. There are applications where a 3+ground outlet is required by code, mostly in outdoor applications, such as RV hookups and generators. > In Europe, a typical property is supplied with a single 230V RMS AC > single phase and neutral supply. If you pay enough money and/or are > small industrial etc, you can get a three phase and neutral supply. > Each phase is 230V RMS AC phase to neutral, 400V RMS AC phase to > phase. In the USA, some locales do not allow 3-phase service to be installed on a residential property. For 3-phase shop equiment, a rotary converter (really a 3-phase motor with a large capacitor hooked between two legs) is often used for the home shop owner who wants to run his South Bend lathe with a 5HP 3-phase motor. I'm out in the country, so my service is still single-phase with a buried 6600V supply drop going to a pad-mounted transformer in my front yard. I'm sure I could get 3-phase service, but it'd cost a fortune to install, what with the trenching and all. I was surprised to see the size of the wire going to my transformer. It must be something like 3/0 AWG copper--it's heavy. I was told that the same wire was used for the buried "loop" servicing the neighborhood as well as all the drops. Seems like a waste of money to me. If you want to run heavy appliances however, keep in mind the line frequency issues. While there are lots of appliances that will accept 50 or 60 Hz line current, it's not universally true. --Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 31 14:39:40 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:39:40 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D46EEB7.3090405@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D46EEB7.3090405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On 1/31/2011 12:50 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> For an additional 'connection fee' you can get 3 phase power delivered. >> >> I have 3 phase power at home, guess why.... >> >> Ed > > Tube audio power supply ... :) > Uhmm, no, it's needed for powering up my pdp-11's -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 14:43:03 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:43:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: ANN: DiscFerret speaks ST506! In-Reply-To: <4D44CC38.2080705@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D44CC38.2080705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, 30 Jan 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys... > > I've just this second got my DiscFerret talking to an ST506 hard drive. > Specifically, a Control Data / Magnetic Peripherals 94205-51 "Wren IIHH", > apparently also known as the Seagate ST253. 989 cylinders, 5 heads, 17 > sectors. It also seems to bear an uncanny shape-and-weight resemblance to a > breezeblock... > > But anyway, I digress. First, the pretty pictures: > > Linear histogram: > http://www.discferret.com/temp/st506/dat.lin_histogram.png > Logarithmic histogram: > http://www.discferret.com/temp/st506/dat.log_histogram.png > Scatter graph: > http://www.discferret.com/temp/st506/dat.scatter.png > > The log-histogram shows a very distinctive MFM timing pattern (three peaks at > 1T, 1.5T and 2T), and the scatter-graph shows that the timing data is split > into 17 distinctive segments: the sectors. Very kewl.. A serious milestone is reached! > So what's the catch? > 1) The DiscFerret PSU doesn't have enough grunt to run a Winchester drive > (or at least a 5.25 half-height like the Wren) and a 3.5in floppy drive at > the same time. This is an academic point, because you need an adapter board > to hook the 'Ferret up to the ST506 drive, and you can't have both a floppy > drive and the adapter plugged in at the same time. If the PS has problems with the MPI drive, wait until you attach a real manly drive like a Priam V185 or Maxtor 2790 :-). Those beasts just about dim the room lights with the inrush! Steve -- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 14:01:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:01:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 30, 11 10:12:10 pm Message-ID: > I found the problem was indeed the CPU board. I tested the capacitors with a > multimeter and found one to be shorted as the resistance measured zero. > While measuring other similar capacitors I found the resistance to be about > 20ohms on the rest, but one seems to be open circuit. The replacement > capacitor I bought (but have not yet fitted) also seems to be open circuit. > I tested the capacitors on a spare CPU board I have and they too were > generally about 20ohms. What values should I expect for resistance? Have I > got a load of capacitors which are all about to fail? A capacitor should, in theory, test as open-circuit. It has no DC path through it. Some cpacitors are polarised, and may test lower in the 'wrong' direction. On most digital metes, the red probe is, indeed, positive on the resistance ranges, on most analogue meters the red probe is -ve. Hwoever, any capacitor which tests as low as 20Ohms is defective. I assume you were testign them out of circuit. If they're on the PCB, there are all sorts of other things in parallel with them (like the chips, if they;re supply line decoupling capacitors) so you can't measure just the resistance of one capacitor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 14:14:10 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: from "Brian Lanning" at Jan 30, 11 09:38:56 pm Message-ID: > > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When we > need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we > get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 > wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for > safety. I was under the impression that the US mains was in fact 220V (or 230V, 234V, depending on which reference you believe), centre-tapped. The centre-tap is the 'neutral' wire and is connected to earth ground at one point. The outside 2 ieres are this 110V with respect to neutral, but as they're in antipahse there's 220V between them. Most devices are 110V and run between one live/phase wire and neutral, high-power stuff (cooking ovens, tumble driers, etc) run their heating elements between the 2 outside wires so as to reduce the current they draw. > Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe > I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in > the appliance. I beleive you are corrrect. IIRC the timer of a cooker or tumble drier, possibly the motor of the latter is run from 110V -- between one phase wire and neutral. > > But I think european 220 doesn't work this way. Is one 220 leg > delivered to the house? And the electronics work off that 220 leg? Yes, exactly. The domestic mains is nomianlly 230V now. We get a single phase wire and a neurtal, the latter being close to ground. Everything is designed to run off that 230V supply. There is no 'centre tap'. So our cookers, say, have 230V elements and a timer that runs off 230V mains. Actually, the European mains is 3 phase. The final transformer secondary is start (wye?) connected with the star point being th eneautral. Houses get a single phase supply consisting of that neurral wire and one of the phase wires -- to balance the load, neighbouring hosues in a road get different phases [1]. Of coruse industral places get the full 2 phase mains to run larger motors, etc. It's very difficult to convince the electricity companies to run 3 phase mains into a normal house, though, which is a problem for people who ant to run large disk drives ;-) [1] In the cases of blocks of flats, student halls of residence, etc, it's not unheard-of for each floor to be wired to wired to a different phase. This has led to studend running extension leads to the rooms above and below theres so as to get a 3 phase supply... > Or are two 110 lines delivered and every outlet gets the sum of those > two 110 lines? No, if we ant 110V, we have to provide our own step-down transfoemr > > If it's not two separate legs, I'm thinking that it will be impossible > to wire an american 220 appliance to work with european 220. Is this > right? It depends on what yuou are trying to do. Certainly a US appliance that needs 110V for any function is not going to work on European mains without modifications. That may be as simple as providing a small step-down transofrmer for the control unit supply. Waht are you trying to do? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 14:43:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:43:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: from "Joost van de Griek" at Jan 31, 11 04:43:38 pm Message-ID: > > On 31 January 2011 16:28, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > [1] or 230V, or 240V... I can never remember exactly. Historically the UK > > was on 240V, but they harmonised with the rest of Europe which, IIRC, is > > 230V. > > Historically, the Britain was 240V, while mainland Europe was > (predominantly) 220V, as were Ireland and Northern Ireland. EU > regulation harmonised that to 230V. Not that it makes much of a > difference, really. IIRC, the oigianl spec was that mainland Euriope was 220V +/- something-or-orhter, and the UK was 240V +/-somethingelse. The 'harmonisation; was to call mainland Europena mans '230V +alitle/-alot' and UK mains '230V+alt/-alittle'. In other words they fiddled with the tolerances and didn't actually change the voltages :-).. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 14:26:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:26:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jan 30, 11 10:52:46 pm Message-ID: > > On Sunday, January 30, 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When we > > need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we > > get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 > > wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for > > safety. > > Some things don't have a separate neutral line, in which case they don't > require 120V power. I thought there used to be an (IMHO dangerous) bit in the US elcectircal regualtiosns which allowed cookers to have a 3 wire mains cable (the 2 phases and protective gorund., the last being wired ot the metal frame of the cooker) but they coulsd still have a 110V timer wired from one phase to the _protective ground_ wire. Taht wouldn't work in Europe (since the 2 sides of the 230V mains are not balanced about ground), and anyway AFAIK making the protecive ground wire carry any current under normal conditions is totally forbidden. > > > Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe > > I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in > > the appliance. > > Yes, some do that. You can always wire in a 240V to 120V step-down > transformer to run the extra bits. It's rarely much power (timers, > clocks, etc), so you probably could get away with a 100W or so step-down > transformer, which should be pretty cheap. One thing to watch for is that clocks, etc, may well use the mains freuqency as a timing refernece (electromechanical clocks almost certainly use xsynchronous motors, electronci ones may well use the mains as the timing input). US mains is 60Hz, European mains is 50Hz. Such clocks, fed froma step-down transofmrmer, will run slow in Europe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 14:57:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:57:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: <4D46E45C.6090202@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 31, 11 10:33:32 am Message-ID: [PIO board] > > Well, I've not got a digital camera yet :-). I wonder if I could convince > > an HPCC member to photograph it for me at a meeting. Of course this means > > finding the darn board... > > That'd be great if you could at some point (or find someone with a scanner - > even a potentially-blurry scan is more interesting than nothing :-) This means I have to find said board :-)... If I do, I think ti's going to be easier to get an HPCC member to brign along a digital camera (even a cellualr phone camera?) than a scanner + laptop. And rememerb this board is not flat on eiather side (socketed compontens on one side, wire-wrap ins on the otehr) so a scan is not likely to be very useful. > > This thread's rather making me want to try to put together some form of guide > to RML bits and bobs and perhaps build up a better picture of what's what. I would like to find soem of the more unusual bits :-) > Yes, that's true - I've got one of the 480Z disk units and it very much looks > like a 380Z board, with PCB traces / pads for a 380Z bus connector (although > the connector and associated bus logic/buffers aren't fitted). It has ROM, RAM > (2KB SRAM), Z80 CPU, Z80 CTC, Z80 SIO and an 8877 FDC on board. I have an idea the firmware ROM is different between the 2 uses, though. The 8877 is very similar to one of the Western Digital controllers (WD179x series). It may be that it doesn't need anythign bu 5V though. HP used this chip in some of their disk units. > (oh, further point that I forgot to mention elsewhere - the network board in > my 380Z server was a mostly-blank 380Z board with a 480Z-style network > interface grafted onto it. I'm not sure if they were all like that, or if > there were earlier boards - prior to the 480Z's existence - which didn't share > any hardware) I don;t think Iv'e seen any RML network hardware... > > IIRC most, if not all, of the 380Zhs have rear panel cutouts for the GPIB > > connecotr and the 'system controller enable/disable' switch. Whether the > > board ever made it into production I don't know. > > True, they do. I'd forgotten that GPIB is the same as IEEE-488 (all the 380Zs > I recall have the port labelled on the back as the latter). I can never rememebr which manufacturers called it what. GPIB/HPIB/IEEE-488/IEC625 are all very similar (IIRC the last uses a B25 connecto wired in a stupid way!). ALL I remember is that HP always called it HPIB... [RML on Econet] > Wow, thanks for quoting that - interesting. I wonder if it was "commercially > available" for long... I think companies had to licence the use of Econet I have no idea, Iv'e never actually seen it. > technology from Acorn, and I've never seen mention on the Acorn side of RML > doing that. Doesn't mean that it didn't happen, but I'm surprised it's not > more known about, or that there isn't any apparent surviving hardware perhaps > schools were either with RML or with Acorn, but rarely both) We had 380Zz when I started at the shcool, and got BBC micros when they came out (and kept the 380Zs) But apart from people like me linking them via RS232 links, there was no communications betwene the machines when I was at school, not even an Econet for the Beebs. > > It should apply to tungsten-halogen bulbs, and AFAIK those hve not been > > banned. I also believe the ban only applies to using bubls for domestic > > lighting, so it's quite legal to use one as a current limiter -- if you > > can get one. > > It's frustrating - I've not seen many 'good' CFLs; they all have nasty > colour-cast, take ages to come on to full brightness, and never seem to Now have I... I can tolerate them for most uses, but they are useless for photgraphic lighting, and they are useless in a darkroom (they take too long to turn off, they will fog film for several minutes after turning the mains off). > achieve nearly what the manufacturer claims in output or longevity. They won't > work outdoors here (too cold in winter), and are complicated (and hence > "costly") to manufacture and dispose of. Energy savings are even a bit dubious > for where I live - we run the heating for 6 months of the year, much of it via > resistive electric heat, so anything that incandescents lose as heat is still > doing useful work. The most useless energy-saving bulb I've seen, I saw today in Maplin. It's a CFL replacemnt for the 500W tungsten halgoen tubular lamp used in floodlighs. The CFL version is anything but comact, BTW... And the small print on the box aid 'equivalent light output to a 125W tungsten halogen bulb'. Do I really want to reduce my floodligth output to 25% of what it was? > > Someone, somewhere, decided that they tick a nice little 'green' box and will > save the world, though. Grumble! :-) This is why I've declared myself to be 'magenta' (which is, of course, anti-green). No, I am not infavour of polution, or wasting resources. But I am also not in favour of stupd measures which do a lot more harm than good. No filament lamps and lead-free solder are just 2 of these... -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 31 15:08:23 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:08:23 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D46BF7F.8070202@dunnington.plus.com> References: <000901cbc127$d10852a0$7318f7e0$@xs4all.nl> <4D46BF7F.8070202@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <000b01cbc18b$0227aa80$0676ff80$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Pete Turnbull Verzonden: maandag 31 januari 2011 14:56 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: OT: american vs european 220 On 31/01/2011 09:18, Rik Bos wrote: > In most western Europe countries the power systems are 3-fase 230V with a > 180 degrees phase-shift. 120-degree phase difference, not 180 :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York Yes, sometimes I'm just to quick.....;-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 14:39:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 20:39:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: from "Simon Fryer" at Jan 31, 11 12:05:46 pm Message-ID: > Many switch mode power supplies will work happliy with both 230V and > 110V. The 110/230 switch only ever seemed to switch in a secondary > capacitor after the bridge rectifier for the HV DC supply to the > switching circuitry. I guess it was difficult to get 300VDC+ > capacitors for a while. Adding a second capacitor (in series) meant > that each capacitor only ever saw about 1/2 the DC voltage, and hence > kept the smoke in. Not at all!. The adjustable SMPUS are designed so that the chopper cirucit works correctly with a DC inpout of around 350V. This can be obtained in 2 ways : a) By full0-wave rectifiying a 230V mains supply b) By voltage-doubling a 115V mains supply The first uses a bridge rectifier (normally) and a smoothing capacitor. The second uses a pair of diodes and a pair of capacitors. It turns out you can use 4 diodes (in a normal bridge configuration) and 2 capacitors, along with a couple of resistors to get the 2 capacitors to charge to approximatle the same voltage if you want to use the series combination as a single cacpaitror) to make a cirucit that can aci as either of those simply by adding a link for (b). That;s what happens in every dual-voltage SMPUS I've worked on. -tony From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Jan 31 15:11:02 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:11:02 +0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > Is this a normal sized board in one of the card guides? As Jules said, > the RGB output board isn't, it's a little board an an L-brackt fixed ot > the rear panel. It's the left-most card next to the floppies. It has a colour modulator on it which goes direct to tv-out on the back panel, also composite which goes to the monitor connector. > I assume you also havea modulator on the text video board (VDU #1). The > TV output socket cable is connected to that if you don't have the PAL board. Nope. No modulator on VDU #1. > I really would try the series light bulb trick in this case. Start with > all the secoadary wires disconnected from teh trransfoerm, and power up > wit ha ligth bulb in series with the mains live wire. It should be dark. It was. Fan action too. > If it glos, there's a short somwhwere. Power-down, reconnect the secondary > wiring, but have the PSU unplugged from the rest of the machine. Power up > a gain with the bulb in series. It will probabyl flash at power-on as the > smoothing capacitors charge, and it may stay glowing, but dimly. If it's > bright, I think you have a shorted rectifier or smoothing capacitor or > similar. It didn't. The power light stayed on and the fan kept spinning - it's a 240v fan. This encouraged me to refit CPU, VDU#1 and the 80 column board. Both CPU and 80col need power and the 80col is permanently wired to VDU#1. However, while the power light stay on and the fan keeps running I get no display on my Hitachi 9" monitor (the one you remember from school). I know the monitor works because it came with my homebrew NASCOMII which is fine. What I don't have (gah) is a multimeter to check the voltages on the floppy connectors....I left it at work. More tomorrow! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 15:09:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:09:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jan 30, 11 11:43:42 am Message-ID: > > On 29/01/2011 21:37, Tony Duell wrote: > > IIRC, the Transputer is just plain weird here. You have to build up the > > instruction in an internal register before you exexute it (there are > > opcodes that modify this instruction register in various ways). I think > > the most common instructions can be loaded in 1 byte. > > > > It's rather different to the multi-byte instructions on otehr processor > > anyway. > > > > -tony > > > A long time ago I wrote a Java JIT compiler for the Transputer and IIRC > the instructions are variable length in mutiples of 4 bits, with as Tony > points out the smallest being 8 bits. It also has 3 general purpose The odd thing is that provide you have the right value in the (internal) intruction register when you come to execte it, it doens't matter how you got it there. So in genral there is no unique set of external instrucitons for a given machine instruciton. There are various ways of getting bit patterns in the instruciton regiaster. The Transputer data sheets do not give the instruciton set IIRC. You weren't supposed to need it, but rather to use the Occam compiler from Inmos. There is a book something like 'The Transputer Instruction Set -- a Compilker Writer's Guide' which gives the instruciton set, etc. It's on my bookshelf, I assume it's on a web site somwehrr... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 15:10:53 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:10:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: from "Michael Thompson" at Jan 29, 11 03:45:41 pm Message-ID: > Anyone have a manual for this drive or know how to get it work without > connecting an OCP? How complex is the OCP? Is it possible to fake it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 31 15:24:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:24:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 31, 11 09:11:02 pm Message-ID: > > > Is this a normal sized board in one of the card guides? As Jules said, > > the RGB output board isn't, it's a little board an an L-brackt fixed ot > > the rear panel. > > It's the left-most card next to the floppies. It has a colour modulator on > it which goes direct to tv-out on the back panel, also composite which goes > to the monitor connector. Rioght... > > > I assume you also havea modulator on the text video board (VDU #1). The > > TV output socket cable is connected to that if you don't have the PAL board. > > Nope. No modulator on VDU #1. > I was going to say that this sounds like an 80 column VDU, but I see later you tell me it is. That manes you don't have a cassette interface. The syutrm firmware ROMs are also different, I don;t know if they requrie an FDC (or other boards) to be rpesent. > > I really would try the series light bulb trick in this case. Start with > > all the secoadary wires disconnected from teh trransfoerm, and power up > > wit ha ligth bulb in series with the mains live wire. It should be dark. > > It was. Fan action too. Excellent. When I was testing out my HP9826, which arrived with a blown mains fuse, I used the seris lightbub trick with the PSU regutlor PCB removed. As with you, I had the fan running (its a 120V fan running off the maisn tranformer primary as an autotransformer), but it drew enough current to get the light bulb filament lowing a very dull red... > > > If it glos, there's a short somwhwere. Power-down, reconnect the secondary > > wiring, but have the PSU unplugged from the rest of the machine. Power up > > a gain with the bulb in series. It will probabyl flash at power-on as the > > smoothing capacitors charge, and it may stay glowing, but dimly. If it's > > bright, I think you have a shorted rectifier or smoothing capacitor or > > similar. > > It didn't. The power light stayed on and the fan kept spinning - it's a 240v > fan. > > This encouraged me to refit CPU, VDU#1 and the 80 column board. Both CPU and > 80col need power and the 80col is permanently wired to VDU#1. However, while > the power light stay on and the fan keeps running I get no display on my > Hitachi 9" monitor (the one you remember from school). I know the monitor > works because it came with my homebrew NASCOMII which is fine. You have removed the seires bulb now, I hope. I doubt the machine would run with a bulb in seires with it. > What I don't have (gah) is a multimeter to check the voltages on the floppy > connectors....I left it at work. More tomorrow! You only have one multimenter? What about a 'scope? -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 31 15:28:23 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:28:23 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201101311628.23275.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 31 January 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Sunday, January 30, 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > > > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. > > > When we need 220, the magic of constructive interference is > > > applied, and we get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance > > > as two separate 110 wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a > > > separate ground wire for safety. > > > > Some things don't have a separate neutral line, in which case they > > don't require 120V power. > > I thought there used to be an (IMHO dangerous) bit in the US > elcectircal regualtiosns which allowed cookers to have a 3 wire > mains cable (the 2 phases and protective gorund., the last being > wired ot the metal frame of the cooker) but they coulsd still have a > 110V timer wired from one phase to the _protective ground_ wire. Sort of. Technically, there was no "ground" wire, and the appliance chassis (if connected) was connected to the neutral line. This is no longer allowed. As long as there's no electrical faults, neutral and ground should be at the same potential (but obviously for safety reasons, one shouldn't assume this). They're usually bonded together at the service entrance - wherever the main circuit breaker (which may actually be up to 6 breakers for separate loads) is. In any case, that's not allowed in new construction or appliances anymore, only grandfathered in, in existing situations. > Taht wouldn't work in Europe (since the 2 sides of the 230V mains are > not balanced about ground), and anyway AFAIK making the protecive > ground wire carry any current under normal conditions is totally > forbidden. Right. Like I said, the chassis was bonded to neutral, not neutral bonded to ground. I guess it's the same situation as an 120V appliance whose chassis is bonded to the neutral line in a 2-wire, non-grounded plug. Though, ground carrying some current isn't all that uncommon. There are plenty of things that have a non-trivial leakage current (eg, MOV or other surge protector devices). I've seen some computer equipment with warnings about having a "high leakage current". > > > Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, > > > maybe I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power > > > electronics in the appliance. > > > > Yes, some do that. You can always wire in a 240V to 120V step-down > > transformer to run the extra bits. It's rarely much power (timers, > > clocks, etc), so you probably could get away with a 100W or so > > step-down transformer, which should be pretty cheap. > > One thing to watch for is that clocks, etc, may well use the mains > freuqency as a timing refernece (electromechanical clocks almost > certainly use xsynchronous motors, electronci ones may well use the > mains as the timing input). US mains is 60Hz, European mains is > 50Hz. Such clocks, fed froma step-down transofmrmer, will run slow > in Europe. > > -tony > -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Jan 31 15:38:11 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 21:38:11 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: References: <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 30, 11 10:12:10 pm Message-ID: <020d01cbc18f$29f72d20$7de58760$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > Sent: 31 January 2011 20:02 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working > > > I found the problem was indeed the CPU board. I tested the capacitors > > with a multimeter and found one to be shorted as the resistance > measured zero. > > While measuring other similar capacitors I found the resistance to be > > about 20ohms on the rest, but one seems to be open circuit. The > > replacement capacitor I bought (but have not yet fitted) also seems to be > open circuit. > > I tested the capacitors on a spare CPU board I have and they too were > > generally about 20ohms. What values should I expect for resistance? > > Have I got a load of capacitors which are all about to fail? > > A capacitor should, in theory, test as open-circuit. It has no DC path through > it. > > Some cpacitors are polarised, and may test lower in the 'wrong' > direction. On most digital metes, the red probe is, indeed, positive on the > resistance ranges, on most analogue meters the red probe is -ve. > Hwoever, any capacitor which tests as low as 20Ohms is defective. > > I assume you were testign them out of circuit. If they're on the PCB, there > are all sorts of other things in parallel with them (like the chips, if they;re > supply line decoupling capacitors) so you can't measure just the resistance > of one capacitor. > > -tony I did not test out of circuit so I will desolder the suspect capacitor and test it again as it certainly measures differently to the same one on a working board. Regards Rob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 15:43:55 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:43:55 -0600 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D472D1B.3000208@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When we >> need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we >> get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 >> wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for >> safety. > > I was under the impression that the US mains was in fact 220V (or 230V, > 234V, depending on which reference you believe), centre-tapped. The > centre-tap is the 'neutral' wire and is connected to earth ground at one > point. The outside 2 ieres are this 110V with respect to neutral, but as > they're in antipahse there's 220V between them. Yes, I think that's the basic setup, but as Chuck noted the voltage of one half is around 120V, not 110V (I got 122.8V on a nearby outlet just now) > Most devices are 110V and > run between one live/phase wire and neutral, high-power stuff (cooking > ovens, tumble driers, etc) run their heating elements between the 2 > outside wires so as to reduce the current they draw. As mentioned though, our elderly dryer just runs the elements and the timer from one 'hot' wire and the motor from the other - perhaps that's unconventional, though. It does have an interesting effect in that our dryer's hooked to a load-control setup, but when the power company send a signal to shut the power to load-controlled devices off (which they do during periods of peak demand) the dryer stops producing heat and the timer stops advancing, but the drum motor continues to turn. (it took me a while to diagnose that - I wasted a few hours looking for a non-existent intermittent dryer fault :-) >> Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe >> I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in >> the appliance. > > I beleive you are corrrect. IIRC the timer of a cooker or tumble drier, > possibly the motor of the latter is run from 110V -- between one phase > wire and neutral. I'd always assumed US cooker timers to be 240V/60Hz, but as Chuck pointed out the bulbs are still 120V and so need a split supply - so they probably just use commodity 120V timer motors, too... > [1] In the cases of blocks of flats, student halls of residence, etc, > it's not unheard-of for each floor to be wired to wired to a different > phase. This has led to studend running extension leads to the rooms above > and below theres so as to get a 3 phase supply... ISTR people doing that in student halls because each room had its own breaker with a ridiculously-low capacity, so running extensions from other rooms - sometimes on different floors - was not unheard of. > No, if we ant 110V, we have to provide our own step-down transfoemr Y'know, I think I remember seeing shaver sockets in UK bathrooms with 120V outputs (possibly in conjunction with 240V ones; long time since I've seen on at all). Presumably those had a small step-down inside. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 16:13:09 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:13:09 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jan 30, 11 11:43:42 am, Message-ID: <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com> When it comes to variable-length instructions, I'm surprised that no one mentioned the IBM 1401, particularly in its ability to "chain" instructions. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 31 16:22:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:22:21 -0700 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D470029.70203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D46D501.7010302@gmail.com> <20110131175942.GE13251@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <4D470029.70203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Obviously, european penises are 220cm long and american penises are 220in long, clearly making us superior. America loves to do things big. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 16:26:21 2011 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:26:21 +0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 31 January 2011 21:24, Tony Duell wrote: > I was going to say that this sounds like an 80 column VDU, but I see > later you tell me it is. That manes you don't have a cassette interface. > The syutrm firmware ROMs are also different, I don;t know if they requrie > an FDC (or other boards) to be rpesent. If I get a voltage from the floppy connector I'l reassemble the whole machine as was when I photographed it. > You have removed the seires bulb now, I hope. I doubt the machine would > run with a bulb in seires with it. Ah. I kept it in when I reassembled the basic machine, should've realised. Will take it out tomorrow, If for nothing else I'd like my bedroom light back :) > You only have one multimenter? What about a 'scope? I have 2 multimeters, but one of them has a dead battery. I can borrow a scope from work if needs be. I also have a logic probe and pulse generator that I'm teaching myself to use (slowly) with a working and non-working PET2001... Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 31 16:30:29 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 14:30:29 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jan 30, 11 11:43:42 am, <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:13 PM > When it comes to variable-length instructions, I'm surprised that no > one mentioned the IBM 1401, particularly in its ability to "chain" > instructions. The instructions on the 1401 are 1 character long, that is, 6 bits. Or have I misunderstood the discussion so far. I thought we were talking about different operations being effected by different lengths of bits as the op codes.[1] [1] Note that "e", as opposed to "a". Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com Mon Jan 31 17:28:42 2011 From: Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com (Bernhard.Wulf at shell.com) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 07:28:42 +0800 Subject: RA81 Disks Will Not Spin up at the RICM. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Michael, Browsing the link you attached reminds me of one problem I came across some time ago... The drive seems to complain about the missing speed signal. How is the speed signal generated? Is there still an opto coupler under the drive assembly detecting the sector impulses from a crown like mechanic coupled with the spindle? It is perhaps worth to check the LED / photo transistor for dust. When done verify that a proper signal is generated and transmitted to the disk controller assembly. Hope it will help, please keep us updated about your progress. Bernhard Wulf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Thompson Sent: 31 January 2011 09:45 To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: RA81 Disks Will Not Spin up at the RICM. So far we have tried 5 RA81 and 1 RA80 disk at the RICM. They all have the same symptom, when you push the RUN button. The drive starts to spin up for just a few seconds, then stops and lights the FAULT light. We ran diags on one of the drives. The details are here: https://sites.google.com/site/ricmwarehouse/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-1144/ pdp-11-44-restoration We made sure that the heads were unlocked and the drive belt was engauged. Debug suggestions would be appreciated. -- Michael Thompson From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 17:29:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 15:29:52 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info>, <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D46D570.28555.1196710@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2011 at 14:30, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:13 PM > > > When it comes to variable-length instructions, I'm surprised that no > > one mentioned the IBM 1401, particularly in its ability to "chain" > > instructions. > > The instructions on the 1401 are 1 character long, that is, 6 bits. > > Or have I misunderstood the discussion so far. I thought we were > talking about different operations being effected by different lengths > of bits as the op codes.[1] Are we talking about instructions themselves, or their operands? In either case, the 1401 qualifies--it's a variable word-length machine and instruction length is dependent on the presence or absence of operands. So, there is only one opcode for the "ADD" instruction, but I can write: A 123 456 Causing the (variable-length) number whose low-order digit is addressed by 123 to be added to the (variable-length) number whose low-order digit is addressed by 456. I can also write: A 123 Same opcode--but this indicates that the number addressed by 123 is added to itself. Or I can write: A Which adds two numbers preceding (in memory) the pair last addressed by an A or other instruction. Similarly, the "unconditional branch" and the "conditional branch" instructions use a common opcode, but the conditional branch appends a digit that specifies the condition. The "trick" behind all of this is that the instruction execution logic locates the opcode by scanning until it finds a character with the word mark set. While it's scanning, operands are shifted through the operand regsters. So, I submit that the 1401 is a variable length machine (it's decimal, by the way) both in the sense of data that's being manipulated and the instructions themselves. Have I missed a third category of "variable length"? --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 31 17:35:52 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:35:52 +0000 Subject: ANN: DiscFerret speaks ST506! In-Reply-To: References: <4D44CC38.2080705@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D474758.8000501@philpem.me.uk> On 31/01/11 20:43, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> The log-histogram shows a very distinctive MFM timing pattern (three >> peaks at 1T, 1.5T and 2T), and the scatter-graph shows that the timing >> data is split into 17 distinctive segments: the sectors. > > Very kewl.. A serious milestone is reached! Indeed! Hitting 100MHz timing rate was another nice milestone. The next one is to decouple the pulse-timer clock and the memory controller clock, which means I'll be able to push the thing a little bit faster. From memory, the Fmax for the timing counter is about 133MHz. Although, to be honest, I like having a 100MHz acq clock. The 10ns steps make it really easy to interpret the timing graphs -- count of 100, one microsecond. Simples! > If the PS has problems with the MPI drive, wait until you attach a real > manly drive like a Priam V185 or Maxtor 2790 :-). Those beasts just > about dim the room lights with the inrush! It doesn't have problems with the MPI drive, it has problems when you run the MPI drive and a 3.5in floppy at the same time :) As I said, that's an impossible combination -- without some form of multiplexer, you can't have both wired to the controller port at the same time. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Jan 31 17:50:27 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:50:27 +0000 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: <497198.3392.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <497198.3392.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D474AC3.5020807@philpem.me.uk> On 31/01/11 13:36, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Careful not to break the faceplate, and wear goggles (just in case something goes FOOMP!) Hm. I'd be more worried about flying glass shards hitting a major artery. Death by massive blood loss can't be much fun, and AIUI survival rates are pretty slim even with prompt first aid. Medium-low likelihood, but very, *very* high risk. If I was doing this, I'd be using a nice, big metal face-shield (similar to those used for welding), REALLY THICK clothing and similarly thick gloves. At least then any glass shards would have to be pretty damn huge (and flying with considerable energy at short distance) to do any major damage. Though that said -- don't most CRTs have an anti-implosion band, which is intended to stop the glass from spreading out? Or are these CRTs too old (or small?) for that? Though AIUI blowing out a CRT from the front would involve significant force... along the lines of BB guns or rifles, not small tools dropped on the tube face... I know the DG7/32 scope tube in my spares box has a decently thick face vs. the neck thickness (looks to be a good 1cm thick), and that's only a 7cm round-face tube. I'd imagine a 14in or 17in raster-scan tube would have a similarly thick face plate, if not thicker. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jan 31 18:02:19 2011 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 18:02:19 -0600 Subject: PIC18LF4620 code decompiler? In-Reply-To: <4D474758.8000501@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D44CC38.2080705@philpem.me.uk> <4D474758.8000501@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D474D8B.3070805@ubanproductions.com> I have a friend who is trying to reverse engineer a board with a PIC18LF4620. It has a bit less than 64K of code which I assume was produced with a C compiler. Does anyone know if there are good decompilers for these PICs? --tnx --tom From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 18:16:51 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:16:51 -0800 Subject: RA70 use with the OCP / Operator Control Panel Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 29, 2011 at 12:45 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > I pulled two RA70 disks from a pair of VAX-3500s that I have. By some > miracle both drives spin up and go ready when the Operator Control > Panel is connected. I was thinking that one of these drives would work > nicely with the UDA50 disk controller in the 11/44 until I can get the > RA81s sorted out. > > These drives are supposed to work with the Operator Control Panel. > There is a button on the back of the drive that says Unit Number > Accept. I pushed the button both before and after power up, but the > RA70 does not spin up. > > Anyone have a manual for this drive or know how to get it work without > connecting an OCP? I have used RA7x drives with a KDA50 (M7164 / M7165) without an OCP attached to the drives. It has been a while now. I don't remember there being anything tricky about getting it to work. I was probably using either an RA72 or RA73. I'll have to look and see if I have an RA70 to try. I don't remember if I ever found any RA7x drive manuals other than this one on the net, which doesn't have all that much useful information: RA7x/SA7x Pocket Reference Guide, Order Number EK-RSA7X-PG-002 -Glen From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 31 18:19:38 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:19:38 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D46D570.28555.1196710@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info>, <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D46D570.28555.1196710@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 3:30 PM On 31 Jan 2011 at 14:30, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Chuck Guzis >> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 2:13 PM >>> When it comes to variable-length instructions, I'm surprised that no >>> one mentioned the IBM 1401, particularly in its ability to "chain" >>> instructions. >> The instructions on the 1401 are 1 character long, that is, 6 bits. >> Or have I misunderstood the discussion so far. I thought we were >> talking about different operations being effected by different lengths >> of bits as the op codes.[1] > Are we talking about instructions themselves, or their operands? [snip long discussion of 1401, which was my first computer 42 years ago] > Have I missed a third category of "variable length"? I don't know. Have you? Eric Smith wrote the following: > From: Eric Smith > Sent: Saturday, January 29, 2011 12:32 PM > Tony Duell wrote: >> Are you implying that the data registers should be variable length, or >> that a variable number of bits should be used in each instruction? > The only processor I've ever seen for which instructions are a variable > number of bits (not bytes or words) is the Intel iAPX 432. For the > release 1 GDP, instructions ranged from 6 to 344 bits long. commenting on Tony Duell's followup to Dwight Elvey's message: >> From: dwight elvey >> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:54 PM >> I always thought is would be fun to make a variable >> bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit >> while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like >> adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. Notice that Dwight is talking about variable numbers of *bits* in the instruction (by which I think he means "op code"), and Tony and Eric both appear to at elast wonder if that's what he means. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From fryers at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 18:21:41 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 08:21:41 +0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, On 01/02/2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Many switch mode power supplies will work happliy with both 230V and >> 110V. The 110/230 switch only ever seemed to switch in a secondary >> capacitor after the bridge rectifier for the HV DC supply to the >> switching circuitry. I guess it was difficult to get 300VDC+ >> capacitors for a while. Adding a second capacitor (in series) meant >> that each capacitor only ever saw about 1/2 the DC voltage, and hence >> kept the smoke in. > > Not at all!. The adjustable SMPUS are designed so that the chopper > cirucit works correctly with a DC inpout of around 350V. This can be > obtained in 2 ways : I stand corrected. I can say that I have learnt something today. > a) By full0-wave rectifiying a 230V mains supply > > b) By voltage-doubling a 115V mains supply > > The first uses a bridge rectifier (normally) and a smoothing capacitor. > The second uses a pair of diodes and a pair of capacitors. It turns out > you can use 4 diodes (in a normal bridge configuration) and 2 capacitors, > along with a couple of resistors to get the 2 capacitors to charge to > approximatle the same voltage if you want to use the series combination > as a single cacpaitror) to make a cirucit that can aci as either of those > simply by adding a link for (b). > > That;s what happens in every dual-voltage SMPUS I've worked on. Ahhh. That makes much more sense. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 18:26:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:26:59 -0500 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: <4D474AC3.5020807@philpem.me.uk> References: <497198.3392.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D474AC3.5020807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > Though that said -- don't most CRTs have an anti-implosion band, which is > intended to stop the glass from spreading out? Or are these CRTs too old (or > small?) for that? Nearly all CRTs built past the late 1950s really are not all that dangerous, unlike the thin walled CRTs of the World War 2 vintage. The glass in the bell is really tough stuff, and is far thicker than it needs to be. Even if you drop a good sized CRT, it will generally break where the bell and neck join first, and the neck will get sucked into the bell. If and when the glass in the bell cracks, the vacuum is already well on its way to atmospheric pressure. As a kid, I tried to abuse many CRTs found in old TV sets, and was always disappointed at how unspectacularly they break. Really, use caution when handling the things, but don't go overboard. -- Will From fryers at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 18:29:41 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 08:29:41 +0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4699EC.1939.30EC89@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4699EC.1939.30EC89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: All, On 01/02/2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Jan 2011 at 12:05, Simon Fryer wrote: > >> On 31/01/2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > >> > In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. When >> > we need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and >> > we get 220. The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate >> > 110 wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for >> > safety. >> >> This doesn't look quite right to me, but it is probably close enough >> for most applications. > > It's been 240/120 V in the USA for years. The voltmeter on the > outlet next to my system here says that the line voltage at this > outlet is 122 volts. I was assuming you were getting two phases from a three phase system. Tony seems to indicate that the two legs in the US are from a centre tapped transformer, so you would be getting 220/240V. [more scary US distribution wiring] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 18:31:01 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:31:01 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info>, <4D46D570.28555.1196710@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D46E3C5.12967.1516395@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2011 at 16:19, Rich Alderson wrote: > >> I always thought is would be fun to make a variable > >> bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit > >> while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like > >> adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. > > Notice that Dwight is talking about variable numbers of *bits* in the > instruction (by which I think he means "op code"), and Tony and Eric > both appear to at elast wonder if that's what he means. I interpreted Dwight's post as a 1-bit serial ALU operating on variable length fields. As far as variable-length opcodes, again, that's a matter of opinion. Many microcontrollers have variable length opcodes. with the instruction packed into a fixed-length word. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 31 18:34:22 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 17:34:22 -0700 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D46EEB7.3090405@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4D47550E.9020703@jetnet.ab.ca> On 1/31/2011 1:39 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: > >> On 1/31/2011 12:50 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>> For an additional 'connection fee' you can get 3 phase power delivered. >>> >>> I have 3 phase power at home, guess why.... >>> >>> Ed >> >> Tube audio power supply ... :) >> > > Uhmm, no, it's needed for powering up my pdp-11's > Is that for the cpu & memory or just the I/O devices? Ben. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 31 18:35:35 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 16:35:35 -0800 Subject: PIC18LF4620 code decompiler? In-Reply-To: <4D474D8B.3070805@ubanproductions.com> References: <4D44CC38.2080705@philpem.me.uk>, <4D474758.8000501@philpem.me.uk>, <4D474D8B.3070805@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <4D46E4D7.7660.15590DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2011 at 18:02, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a friend who is trying to reverse engineer a board > with a PIC18LF4620. It has a bit less than 64K of code which > I assume was produced with a C compiler. Does anyone know if > there are good decompilers for these PICs? I've used IDA for just about everything; it's a great product. There is a disassembly module for PIC12/16 and 18. There is also a C decompiler module, but I don't know if it extends to PIC. --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 19:50:13 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 19:50:13 -0600 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4699EC.1939.30EC89@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D4766D5.3080508@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > I was assuming you were getting two phases from a three phase system. > Tony seems to indicate that the two legs in the US are from a centre > tapped transformer, so you would be getting 220/240V. > > [more scary US distribution wiring] There's some reasonable text about various AC systems at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-phase_electric_power cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 22:50:05 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 04:50:05 +0000 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at the same time) In-Reply-To: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > A random thought popped into my head this evening, and having nothing better > to do (well, ok, I have quite a few things better to do to be honest) I > decided to go with the impulse. > > The idea? ?I have a number of nubus Mac coprocessors and accelerators, > amongst them: > > - An Orange386 PC coprocessor (16Mhz 80386, 4MB ram, CGA graphics) > - A Radius Rocket Stage II (Basically a Quadra on a 12" nubus card, complete > with 40Mhz CPU and 32mb of RAM) > - A Symbolics MacIvory III (The coolest coprocessor ever -- a lisp machine > on a card!) > > Could I run these all at the same time in my trusty Macintosh IIfx? > > The answer: Yes. (warning, 1600x1200 image): > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/random/5OS.png > > That's a 40Mhz 68030 IIfx running System 7.6.1, the Radius Rocket running > System 7.1, the Orange386 running DOS 5.0, the MacIvory running Genera 8.3, > and just for good measure the IIfx is also running Tenon's MachTEN (BSD 4.3 > running as a Mac OS process). > > I didn't leave it running like that for very long, as it's probably more > than a bit stressful on the poor IIfx's power supply. ?But I just had to try > it, thought you guys might get a kick out of it... *Pauses for a minute of silent admiration* I am envious of your toybox. Very. :?) All you have to do now is find a way to add A/UX onto that. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 22:51:16 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 04:51:16 +0000 Subject: need Num Lock keycap for IBM Model M In-Reply-To: <4D31FF13.9060707@hawkmountain.net> References: <4D31FF13.9060707@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 15, 2011 at 8:09 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > Anyone have a dead model M or some keycaps around. > > I rescued this one from a recycle pile and it works fine.... a few key caps > were off it > and I found them, but missed the fact the num lock cap was missing, and now > the > pile has been hauled off.... so no looking for it now. > > Let me know if you have a Num Lock key cap. Can't help, but Unicomp do sell spares, AFAICR. I'm in the UK - the keycaps were cheap, shipping was horrendous. (10x the cost of the keycap I need.) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jan 31 23:08:11 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 05:08:11 +0000 Subject: Lisa 2. Fully operational In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 11:10 PM, terry stewart wrote: > Hi, > > The Lisa 2 is now fully operational. ?In the end I took the easy way out and > simply ordered replacement keyboard pads from Erik. ?I'm going to have to > make them eventually though, because I've still got the Lisa 2/10 (and its > keyboard) to go. > > I usually write these projects up when I'm finished. ?They are not detailed > technical articles but rather narratives on what I did for those interested. > If anyone wants to have a look, the article is at the URL below. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm > > Thanks to the people that helped with this. ?The local guy who owns a Lisa > 2/10 hasn't yet got it out of storage yet so there has been no progress on > that front at this time. > > Terry (Tez) Really nice little writeup, there, if I may say so. Well done! -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508