From swtpc6800 at comcast.net Tue Feb 1 00:59:08 2011 From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 22:59:08 -0800 Subject: High-Speed Computing Devices in 1950 Message-ID: <89D73616443F40AAB7C25FABF391568F@downstairs2> "High-Speed Computing Devices" is a report on the state of computing machines in the US that was published in 1950. I have first edition copy but it is also available on the Internet Archive. http://www.archive.org/details/HighSpeedComputingDevices My favorite part is "Table 10-1, Large-Scale Digital Computing-Machine Projects in the United States." It lists all nine operational machines with eleven more under construction. (Pages 214 and 215, the DJVU file is offset 14 pages so this starts on page 228.) The description of the ENIAC starts on page 194. The book describes the computing circuitry in detail. You can build your own accumulator with a handful of vacuum tubes. Michael Holley From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Feb 1 01:15:34 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 20:15:34 +1300 Subject: Lisa 2. Fully operational References: Message-ID: <48237E744193423494EAF14B57194DEB@vshack> Thanks Liam, Last Thursday a mate called by with his IDE ProFile emulator and we booted up the Lisa Office Suite on it. Nice! Progress is being made on the second Lisa, the Lisa 2/10. Another friend has located the IWD chip on an old Mac 128 board he has lying around, and he's sending it to me. Tonight I've dragged out the Mac Classic II and the 800k drive. I'm making Lisa Office Suite installation disks in anticipation of tackling the widget once we've got a good IWM in there. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 6:08 PM Subject: Re: Lisa 2. Fully operational >.... >Really nice little writeup, there, if I may say so. Well done! >>.... >> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2011-01-11-salvaging-a-lisa2.htm From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 1 02:12:59 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:12:59 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D47550E.9020703@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D46EEB7.3090405@jetnet.ab.ca> <4D47550E.9020703@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7552a61f4954a00fecc2ae03d89e5a50.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> > On 1/31/2011 1:39 PM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> >>> On 1/31/2011 12:50 AM, E. Groenenberg wrote: >>>> For an additional 'connection fee' you can get 3 phase power >>>> delivered. >>>> >>>> I have 3 phase power at home, guess why.... >>>> >>>> Ed >>> >>> Tube audio power supply ... :) >> >> Uhmm, no, it's needed for powering up my pdp-11's >> > Is that for the cpu & memory or just the I/O devices? > Ben. > For one large configuration, basically a 11/70 with full memory complement, and some peripherals (one RM03 drive, 3 RK07 drives, one PC05 paper tape, one RX02 floppy unit, one TU56 tape drive, 2 TU-80 tape drives and a Decwriter-III. Don't need to heath the garage then, this dissipates enough to keep you warm in the winter ;) -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From spedraja at ono.com Tue Feb 1 02:17:20 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 09:17:20 +0100 Subject: High-Speed Computing Devices in 1950 In-Reply-To: <89D73616443F40AAB7C25FABF391568F@downstairs2> References: <89D73616443F40AAB7C25FABF391568F@downstairs2> Message-ID: I think that I have this book in its original edition. I must check it. Sergio 2011/2/1 Michael Holley > "High-Speed Computing Devices" is a report on the state of computing > machines in the US that was published in 1950. I have first edition copy but > it is also available on the Internet Archive. > http://www.archive.org/details/HighSpeedComputingDevices > > My favorite part is "Table 10-1, Large-Scale Digital Computing-Machine > Projects in the United States." It lists all nine operational machines with > eleven more under construction. (Pages 214 and 215, the DJVU file is offset > 14 pages so this starts on page 228.) The description of the ENIAC starts on > page 194. > > The book describes the computing circuitry in detail. You can build your > own accumulator with a handful of vacuum tubes. > > Michael Holley > > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Feb 1 02:25:23 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 08:25:23 -0000 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: References: <4D4539A9.60600@bluewin.ch>, , <4D456E81.8000703@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: I have managed to remove the outer screen on a couple of DEC VR201's that had the blue spot rot. I sacrificed the outer screen and removed the soft layer beneath. It's this layer that has the problem. Breaking the glass sounds a bit drastic but there's no way to put it back. The tube goes back in the case and you can re-site the rubber stand-offs to maintain the gap that now exists around the face of the tube. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? Old |d|i|g|i|t|a|l| always wanted. ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey Sent: 30 January 2011 15:01 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: ADM3a screen rot again... > From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch > > On 01/30/2011 02:49 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Jan 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: > > > >> Had another ADM3a come in, again with severe screen rot. > >> Unlike the first time i now have successfully separated the faceplate from the CRT. > >> Question is of course how to get it back on again. > >> Anybody successfully done this ? > > > > What method did you use to remove the shield? I'd like to try this on a HP 2647A. > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > > > A thin flexible metal ruler and lots of time (2-3 hrs). > > Jos > Hi I'm told a thin piece of music wire or guitar string is what to use. Most just leave the shield off. I'm not sure if one could replace is without some heavy duty vacuum equipment. Dwight = From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Feb 1 05:14:57 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:14:57 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > is start (wye?) connected with the star point being th eneautral. Houses > get a single phase supply consisting of that neurral wire and one of the > phase wires -- to balance the load, neighbouring hosues in a road get > different phases [1]. Of coruse industral places get the full 2 phase > mains to run larger motors, etc. It's very difficult to convince the > electricity companies to run 3 phase mains into a normal house, though, Maybe in the UK, but in Germany it's very usual to have three phases. For example, our house gets three phases (fused at 63A each) which are then distributed to the individual rooms (one phase here, another phase there, and so on). The kitchen for example has in addition to the single phase for the light and outlets a three-phase line for the stove. And it's not unusual to have a red CEE outlet in some cases (we had one in the cellar until we needed this additional three-phase line for the separate oven). In France you can get three phases to your house (three-wire cable coming into the house), it depends on your choice whether you actually have three or only one phase available, e.g. you can have 1x60A (called "monophas?") or 3x20A ("triphas?"), the price is the same. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Feb 1 05:22:11 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:22:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Taht wouldn't work in Europe (since the 2 sides of the 230V mains are not > balanced about ground), and anyway AFAIK making the protecive ground wire > carry any current under normal conditions is totally forbidden. In new installations, maybe. But many older houses have just that, they use the neutral wire as protective ground (called "klassische Nullung" or TN-C system as opposed to a TN-C-S system, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system) Christian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 07:40:22 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 07:40:22 -0600 Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: References: <497198.3392.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D474AC3.5020807@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D480D46.7060204@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Though that said -- don't most CRTs have an anti-implosion band, which is >> intended to stop the glass from spreading out? Or are these CRTs too old (or >> small?) for that? > > Nearly all CRTs built past the late 1950s really are not all that > dangerous, unlike the thin walled CRTs of the World War 2 vintage. The > glass in the bell is really tough stuff, and is far thicker than it > needs to be. Even if you drop a good sized CRT, it will generally > break where the bell and neck join first, and the neck will get sucked > into the bell. If and when the glass in the bell cracks, the vacuum is > already well on its way to atmospheric pressure. > > As a kid, I tried to abuse many CRTs found in old TV sets, and was > always disappointed at how unspectacularly they break. Yes, they're pretty tough. For CRTs with a metal band around the edge, I don't think the faceplate is essential. Yes, it's additional protection if the tube does blow, and also handy to protect the tube from something thrown at it (although it'd have to be something heavy given how thick the glass at the front of the tube is!) - but I don't think the risk is made significantly higher by not having it (or not having it bonded to the CRT). I've heard that sometimes the faceplate function is more cosmetic, too - there to improve contrast, reduce glare, make the tube front seem flatter than it actually is etc. cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 1 07:54:43 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:54:43 +0000 Subject: Any error correction gurus in the audience? In-Reply-To: References: <4D462CC3.4090402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4810A3.4050705@philpem.me.uk> On 31/01/11 16:01, dwight elvey wrote: > What I mean by the error mask is that in the polynomial, there is > a span of zeros. If you play it backwards until there are zeros in > all but the center portion where the zeros are, you have found > the error mask. Shifting it until is would be at the input edge of the > polynomial would give you the offset. I noticed that Silicon Systems provided a different polynomial in the SSI 32C452 datasheet: x^32 + x^30 + x^26 + x^22 + x^15 + x^13 + x^6 + x^4 + x^0 0x14440A051 This polynomial is claimed to be capable of repairing up to an 8-bit long error burst. So what determines the longest error burst which can be corrected? > I hope this makes some sense? Enough that I managed to figure out the algorithm -- with a little help from: * Adaptec AIC-100 Winchester Controller Chip datasheet -- VERY nice description of the 5-bit error correction algorithm, but no polynomials. * SSI 32C452 datasheet -- reasonable description of how error-correction works * NatSemi AN-413 -- good description of most disk-related subjects, but out-and-out wrong in places. Do your own math, and find a secondary reference for anything you find in here! * WD 1002-05 Winchester controller OEM manual -- polynomials are listed on page 1-3 * WD 1014 Error Detection/Support Logic Device datasheet -- p. 4-19 explains what parts of the disc data are included in the CRC calculation. Note that the binary polynomial is loaded into the SSI chip shifted one bit to the right and ANDed by 0x7FFFFFFF. To get the real polynomial as you'd use for the XOR factor in a CRC32 routine, shift it one bit left and set the LSbit (OR with 0x01). Also note that AN413 has an incorrect binary value for the polynomial: x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0 is really 0x1140A0445, not 0x140A0443. This cost me quite a few hours of debugging... And yes, the A1F8 header block is included in the CRC... the IV is 0xFFFFFFFF, then the first bytes clocked in are A1 followed by F8. Data bits are clocked into the LFSR in order MSB to LSB. The CRC is stored on the track as a 4-byte big-endian value. Clock everything from A1 to the last CRC byte in exactly as it is, and you'll get a CRC remainder of zero if the track data is valid. If it's anything else, do a couple of re-reads (three or four), and if all else fails... bail out and do the ECC. That was a "fun" way to spend two days... Ah well, long code-fests aren't all bad when you've got some nice music and a big pot of tea on standby. Snow Patrol, the Dixie Chicks, Genesis, Little Big Town, Sting and The Police.... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 1 08:15:28 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:15:28 +0000 Subject: Kryoflux folks need help In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D481580.2020202@philpem.me.uk> On 28/01/11 23:59, Jason T wrote: > Seems they are willing to implement software support for hard-sectored > 5.25" disk formats if someone can provide them with some known-good > examples to work with. Preferably in the UK: If anyone's feeling generous, I could do with some 5.25in hard-sector discs to test on the DiscFerret :) (hint hint) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:11:35 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:11:35 -0600 Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D484CD7.50501@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem to > > Well, they did hide the case screws under little plastic caps, but that > is a minor problem... > > There were no schematics for the PSUs in the appropriate service manuals > either, which was also a minor problem. That seems a very common failing with various micro manufacturers - I wonder why? Despite system design being done in-house, was PSU design typically outsourced to a different company? That might explain the lack of PSU schematics. Or did micro designers consider the logic servicable, and yet somehow see the PSU side as not being so (or perhaps so bullet-proof that it could never possibly go wrong)? (I remember my +4 having a horrible epoxied brick PSU - urgh) cheers Jules From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Feb 1 12:48:09 2011 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 18:48:09 +0000 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 31/01/2011 21:24, "Tony Duell" wrote: > You have removed the seires bulb now, I hope. I doubt the machine would > run with a bulb in seires with it. OK, I've removed the bulb and checked the voltages on the floppy connector, seems like the death of the 12V circuit is what caused the mains fuse to go. +5V is reading +6.2 and +12V is dead. Looks like I'll finally have to remove the PSU from the case which will be fun as the earthing screws on the rear of the case have corroded quite badly. Anyone got a schematic for the PSU? Cheers folks, -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Feb 1 12:56:08 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 10:56:08 -0800 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D46E3C5.12967.1516395@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info>, , <4D46D570.28555.1196710@cclist.sydex.com>, , , <4D46E3C5.12967.1516395@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 31 Jan 2011 at 16:19, Rich Alderson wrote: > > > >> I always thought is would be fun to make a variable > > >> bit serial computer. Many operations only need a single bit > > >> while the single bit ALU could operate on data, like > > >> adding, one bit at a time and use any length one wanted. > > > > Notice that Dwight is talking about variable numbers of *bits* in the > > instruction (by which I think he means "op code"), and Tony and Eric > > both appear to at elast wonder if that's what he means. > > I interpreted Dwight's post as a 1-bit serial ALU operating on > variable length fields. > > As far as variable-length opcodes, again, that's a matter of opinion. > Many microcontrollers have variable length opcodes. with the > instruction packed into a fixed-length word. > > --Chuck > Hi I'll have to admit, I was mostly talking about ALU operations. One thing that I'd often though might be cool to play with is context base instruction decoding. This could make a difference in instructions based on operations just performed. This might be in packed instructions of fixed length or variable length with a serial memory. Dwight From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 13:19:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:19:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: <4D474AC3.5020807@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 31, 11 11:50:27 pm Message-ID: > > On 31/01/11 13:36, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Careful not to break the faceplate, and wear goggles (just in case something goes FOOMP!) > > Hm. I'd be more worried about flying glass shards hitting a major > artery. Death by massive blood loss can't be much fun, and AIUI survival > rates are pretty slim even with prompt first aid. Medium-low likelihood, > but very, *very* high risk. > > If I was doing this, I'd be using a nice, big metal face-shield (similar > to those used for welding), REALLY THICK clothing and similarly thick > gloves. At least then any glass shards would have to be pretty damn huge > (and flying with considerable energy at short distance) to do any major > damage. > > Though that said -- don't most CRTs have an anti-implosion band, which > is intended to stop the glass from spreading out? Or are these CRTs too > old (or small?) for that? > > Though AIUI blowing out a CRT from the front would involve significant > force... along the lines of BB guns or rifles, not small tools dropped > on the tube face... I know the DG7/32 scope tube in my spares box has a > decently thick face vs. the neck thickness (looks to be a good 1cm > thick), and that's only a 7cm round-face tube. I'd imagine a 14in or > 17in raster-scan tube would have a similarly thick face plate, if not > thicker. > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 12:53:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:53:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201101311628.23275.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Jan 31, 11 04:28:23 pm Message-ID: > > Taht wouldn't work in Europe (since the 2 sides of the 230V mains are > > not balanced about ground), and anyway AFAIK making the protecive > > ground wire carry any current under normal conditions is totally > > forbidden. > > Right. Like I said, the chassis was bonded to neutral, not neutral > bonded to ground. I guess it's the same situation as an 120V appliance > whose chassis is bonded to the neutral line in a 2-wire, non-grounded > plug. Well, 'live chassis' ('hot chassis', whatever) radios and TVs were common over here too, but it had to be impossoible to touch the chassis or anyhting electrically connected to it (e.g. fixing screws). This is reather differnet from having the metalwork of a cooker or simuilar connected to the neuatral wire, that is most definitely touchable. > > Though, ground carrying some current isn't all that uncommon. There are > plenty of things that have a non-trivial leakage current (eg, MOV or > other surge protector devices). I've seen some computer equipment with > warnings about having a "high leakage current". Yes, you're right. I am sure there;s a limit to the mazximum permitted leackage current. It's not zero, but ti's probably not that high either. Mins filters often have cpaciaotrs from the power-carrying wires to ground, and they will pass some AC current. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 13:24:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:24:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ADM3a screen rot again... In-Reply-To: from "Rod Smallwood" at Feb 1, 11 08:25:23 am Message-ID: > > > I have managed to remove the outer screen on a couple of DEC VR201's = > that > had the blue spot rot. I sacrificed the outer screen and removed the = > soft > layer beneath. It's this layer that has the problem. > > Breaking the glass sounds a bit drastic but there's no way to put it = > back.=20 > The tube goes back in the case and you can re-site the rubber stand-offs = > to > maintain the gap that now exists around the face of the tube.=20 Are you sure that that faceplate and the 'soft layer' doens't act as a support for broken glass in the event of an implosion. Certainly some CRT data books imply otherwiese... I would not want to use a VR201 that could implode in my face! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 13:03:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:03:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D472D1B.3000208@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 31, 11 03:43:55 pm Message-ID: > > I was under the impression that the US mains was in fact 220V (or 230V, > > 234V, depending on which reference you believe), centre-tapped. The > > centre-tap is the 'neutral' wire and is connected to earth ground at one > > point. The outside 2 ieres are this 110V with respect to neutral, but as > > they're in antipahse there's 220V between them. > > Yes, I think that's the basic setup, but as Chuck noted the voltage of one > half is around 120V, not 110V (I got 122.8V on a nearby outlet just now) I think the voltage will depend on various things. I've heard it quoted as 117V/234V [1] but that was some time ago, so it may well have changed... [1] Anyone else remember valves like the 117Z which was (IIRC) a double diode recrtifier with a 117V (!) filament. I think there wsa a half-wave rectifer/ooutput pentode with a 117V filament too, used in cheap record players. > > > Most devices are 110V and > > run between one live/phase wire and neutral, high-power stuff (cooking > > ovens, tumble driers, etc) run their heating elements between the 2 > > outside wires so as to reduce the current they draw. > > As mentioned though, our elderly dryer just runs the elements and the timer > from one 'hot' wire and the motor from the other - perhaps that's > unconventional, though. It does have an interesting effect in that our dryer's > hooked to a load-control setup, but when the power company send a signal to > shut the power to load-controlled devices off (which they do during periods of > peak demand) the dryer stops producing heat and the timer stops advancing, but Probably better than if (by chance) the load-control had removed the other live wire (heater carries on, but motor stops). Our washing machine has an option shown on wiring diagram to connect it for multiple phase (I can't remember if it uses 2 or 3 phases) mains. Basically add a contactor (big relay) to control the water heating elements. Motor/timer/pump runs off one phase, heaters run off other phases. Of course it doesn't require a particular angle between the phases, unlike a 3 phase motor would. > > [1] In the cases of blocks of flats, student halls of residence, etc, > > it's not unheard-of for each floor to be wired to wired to a different > > phase. This has led to studend running extension leads to the rooms above > > and below theres so as to get a 3 phase supply... > > ISTR people doing that in student halls because each room had its own breaker > with a ridiculously-low capacity, so running extensions from other rooms - > sometimes on different floors - was not unheard of. Yes, but gettign 3 phase to run an 11/780 was somewhat unconventional (no, I was not involved in this...) > > > No, if we ant 110V, we have to provide our own step-down transfoemr > > Y'know, I think I remember seeing shaver sockets in UK bathrooms with 120V > outputs (possibly in conjunction with 240V ones; long time since I've seen on > at all). Presumably those had a small step-down inside. The UKL regulations prohibit any socket outlets in bathrooms (defined as a 'room containing a fixed bath or shower') apart from shaver sockets run from an isolating transformer. Most of thse sockets have a tapped secondary winding on the transofemr, and do, indeed, provide 110V as well. The trnasofemrs are typically about 20VA, and have many other uses. I rememebr when a local 'pound shop/ had a load of such sockets, presumbly bankrupt stock from sowewhere. Yes, I bought quite a few for the isolating transformers. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 13:06:35 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:06:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Jan 31, 11 10:26:21 pm Message-ID: > > You have removed the seires bulb now, I hope. I doubt the machine would > > run with a bulb in seires with it. > > Ah. I kept it in when I reassembled the basic machine, should've > realised. Will take it out tomorrow, If for nothing else I'd like my > bedroom light back :) Well, actualyl, if the bulb is not glowing, it's not dropping much voltage, so I guess anything wired in series with it would work. I am suprised even a minimal 380Z would draw so little current, so I do wonder if you have a PSU fault and the logic is gettign no power at all. > > > You only have one multimenter? What about a 'scope? > > I have 2 multimeters, but one of them has a dead battery. I can borrow And you don't keep batteries in sotck... I guess I _am_ odd, I keep all the 'standard' size batteries in the cupboard... (That includes 'N' size celsl, needed for many of my calculators). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 14:07:16 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 20:07:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: C64 power brick [WAS: VT240A vs. VT240B] In-Reply-To: <4D484CD7.50501@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 1, 11 12:11:35 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Odd, the C128 and A500 bricks are easily opened an serviced. I seem to > > > > Well, they did hide the case screws under little plastic caps, but that > > is a minor problem... > > > > There were no schematics for the PSUs in the appropriate service manuals > > either, which was also a minor problem. > > That seems a very common failing with various micro manufacturers - I wonder > why? Despite system design being done in-house, was PSU design typically I ma pretty sure the C128 brick is a Commodore design..... But yes, Astec PSUs turned up in all sorts of machines, and often official schematics were unavialable. The TRS-80 Model 3 manuals (and I aussem the Model 4 one too, it uses the same PSU) contains a schematic which I assume has been obtained by somebody at Radio Shack reverse-engineering the Astec PSU board - an making a right mess of it. The scheamtics at drawn coudlnt do anythign useful!. On the otehr hand, there;s the Sharp MZ700 manual. The user manual for this home comptuer starts off telling you how to plug it into the mains and into a TV set. Then there's the normal introduction to BASIC with cartoons, etc. Than a section on amchine language programming. Then full schematics of the machine and options -- including the SMPSU board. And finally a commented lisitng of the monitor ROMs. Odd manual... > outsourced to a different company? That might explain the lack of PSU > schematics. Or did micro designers consider the logic servicable, and yet Posibly safety-related. It's difficult to do serious harm to you or somebody else with a 5V supply at th typical current available in a home micro. It's ratehr easier to do serious harm with the mains. On ther other hand, PSUs which start with a mains transfomer (whetehr the regualtors are linear or switchers) are pretty safe to work on. Hp did the opposite in some of their 'service manuals' They were essentially boardswapper guides with no schematics of the logic at all, but you did get full PSU schematics. Go figure. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 14:31:51 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:31:51 -0600 Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D486DB7.5070604@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > On 31/01/2011 21:24, "Tony Duell" wrote: > >> You have removed the seires bulb now, I hope. I doubt the machine would >> run with a bulb in seires with it. > > OK, I've removed the bulb and checked the voltages on the floppy connector, > seems like the death of the 12V circuit is what caused the mains fuse to go. > +5V is reading +6.2 and +12V is dead. Looks like I'll finally have to remove > the PSU from the case which will be fun as the earthing screws on the rear > of the case have corroded quite badly. > > Anyone got a schematic for the PSU? I don't remember it being too complex - i.e. "traceable in ten minutes" level of complexity. If the screws are just for earthed terminals via wires, worst-case you could always cut them close to the terminal end and re-solder them afterwards, I expect. I've never seen the schematic in any of the RML manuals. +6.2V on the +5V rail is worrying - hopefully just an unloaded reading; if it really is that much it may have caused a mess (although I managed to accidentally stick +9V into an Atom that was expecting +5V once and incredibly it survived) +12V is used by many of the boards (as is -12V, although usually not directly, but via 7905 regulators to get -5V), so you're not going to get anything without +12V running. cheers Jules From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Feb 1 14:35:17 2011 From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:35:17 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 References: Message-ID: <2B3034D4D02740ACB62EF68DFB6E425B@vl420mt> > Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 12:22:11 +0100 (CET) > From: Christian Corti > Subject: Re: OT: american vs european 220 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Taht wouldn't work in Europe (since the 2 sides of the 230V mains are not >> balanced about ground), and anyway AFAIK making the protecive ground wire >> carry any current under normal conditions is totally forbidden. > > In new installations, maybe. But many older houses have just that, they > use the neutral wire as protective ground (called "klassische Nullung" or > TN-C system as opposed to a TN-C-S system, see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system) > > Christian ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And in some places they still have the single wire distribution systems where the 'real' earth/ground is the return: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 14:24:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 20:24:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Research Machines 380Z, things to check before first powerup! In-Reply-To: from "Adrian Graham" at Feb 1, 11 06:48:09 pm Message-ID: > > On 31/01/2011 21:24, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > > You have removed the seires bulb now, I hope. I doubt the machine would > > run with a bulb in seires with it. > > OK, I've removed the bulb and checked the voltages on the floppy connector, > seems like the death of the 12V circuit is what caused the mains fuse to go. > +5V is reading +6.2 and +12V is dead. Looks like I'll finally have to remove My first worry is that 5V line. If you had the logic PCBs connected and it really is 6.2V, then you may well have damaged ICs... Most will stand up to 7V, though , but I don't like to risk it. IIRC the DRAms in a 380Z need the +12V and -5V supplies, which could expaline why nothign is working with hte 12V rail missing. Have you checked the votlages on the 10 pin connectors to the logic boards? > the PSU from the case which will be fun as the earthing screws on the rear > of the case have corroded quite badly. > > Anyone got a schematic for the PSU? Not that I know of, but I thought it was so simple (transformer + rectifiers + smoothing caps + 3 terminal regualtors) that you didn't need one. Or is there something odd about it? Getting to my 380Z would be a problem, but if necessary I will get it out and take it apart to check for you. -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 15:03:13 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 16:03:13 -0500 Subject: XT-IDE PCBs have arrived Message-ID: <4FC7389E4E72459AB090A6491E89590B@andrewdesktop> Hi! The next batch of XT-IDE PCBs have arrived! If you were waiting please contact me at LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM http://wiki.vintage-computer.com/index.php/XTIDE_project Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 1 15:16:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 13:16:46 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D472D1B.3000208@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jan 31, 11 03:43:55 pm, Message-ID: <4D4807BE.27793.E04852@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2011 at 19:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I was under the impression that the US mains was in fact 220V (or > > > 230V, 234V, depending on which reference you believe), > > > centre-tapped. The centre-tap is the 'neutral' wire and is > > > connected to earth ground at one point. The outside 2 ieres are > > > this 110V with respect to neutral, but as they're in antipahse > > > there's 220V between them. > > > > Yes, I think that's the basic setup, but as Chuck noted the voltage > > of one half is around 120V, not 110V (I got 122.8V on a nearby > > outlet just now) > > I think the voltage will depend on various things. I've heard it > quoted as 117V/234V [1] but that was some time ago, so it may well > have changed... It's been variously quoted as 110/220, 115/230, 117/234 and today, 120/240. The "standard" has crept up over the years. Japan, I believe, is still 100V, although it can be either 50 or 60 Hz. > [1] Anyone else remember valves like the 117Z which was (IIRC) a > double diode recrtifier with a 117V (!) filament. I think there wsa a > half-wave rectifer/ooutput pentode with a 117V filament too, used in > cheap record players. 117L7/M7GT if memory serves. Another combination was a 70L7 beam power tube with a 35Z5 rectifier and a 12SK7 (or other 12.6V pentode or triode). Weren't there also some European countries (or parts thereof) that used various DC voltages for lighting and small appliances? (Belgium or Italy?). Another artifact of earlier days in US industrial applications is 55/110/220/440V 25 Hz distribution. The power transformers are huge and the "hum" is more of a "rattle". --Chuck From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 15:29:23 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 15:29:23 -0600 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 9:52 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday, January 30, 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: >> In the US, two separate 110 legs are delivered to the house. ?When we >> need 220, the magic of constructive interference is applied, and we >> get 220. ?The 220 is delivered to the appliance as two separate 110 >> wires, a neutral wire, and sometimes a separate ground wire for >> safety. > > Some things don't have a separate neutral line, in which case they don't > require 120V power. > >> Because of this arrangement, sometimes appliances (I believe, maybe >> I'm wrong) will pull 110 from one of the legs to power electronics in >> the appliance. > > Yes, some do that. ?You can always wire in a 240V to 120V step-down > transformer to run the extra bits. ?It's rarely much power (timers, > clocks, etc), so you probably could get away with a 100W or so step-down > transformer, which should be pretty cheap. ok, so considering this one: http://www.cmadishmachines.com/files/8-2008/UC50e/Kromo%20Wire%20Diagram.pdf I would look at this and say that since there's no electronics, I can wire up any old 220 line (assuming the line had the appropriate current rating). Does that sound right? It looks to me like it combines the two 110 lines right at the screw terminal where the power comes in. brian From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 1 15:36:27 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:36:27 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D487CDB.9010807@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/02/2011 19:03, Tony Duell wrote: > The UKL regulations prohibit any socket outlets in bathrooms (defined as > a 'room containing a fixed bath or shower') apart from shaver sockets run > from an isolating transformer. In typical cases, effectively they do, but that's oversimplifying a bit because there are places where it is allowed (depends on distances and barriers). It just doesn't happen in a typical sized house! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 1 15:32:49 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 21:32:49 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D487C01.3020600@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/02/2011 11:22, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 31 Jan 2011, Tony Duell wrote: >> Taht wouldn't work in Europe (since the 2 sides of the 230V mains are not >> balanced about ground), and anyway AFAIK making the protecive ground wire >> carry any current under normal conditions is totally forbidden. > > In new installations, maybe. But many older houses have just that, they > use the neutral wire as protective ground (called "klassische Nullung" > or TN-C system as opposed to a TN-C-S system, see > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system) Both TN-C and TN-C-S are allowed here, but those terms refer specifically only to building wiring, and where the neutral is connected to earth (as it always is, somewhere). But Tony was writing about appliance wiring, and he's right about that; the protective conductor is not permitted to carry any load current under normal conditions, whether it's a fixed appliance or portable. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 15:49:59 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 16:49:59 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4807BE.27793.E04852@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D472D1B.3000208@gmail.com> <4D4807BE.27793.E04852@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > It's been variously quoted as 110/220, 115/230, 117/234 and today, > 120/240. ?The "standard" has crept up over the years. ?Japan, I > believe, is still 100V, although it can be either 50 or 60 Hz. It has been 120/240 for a very long time. > Another artifact of earlier days in US industrial applications is > 55/110/220/440V 25 Hz distribution. ?The power transformers are huge > and the "hum" is more of a "rattle". I think this is all finally gone, apart from the NorthEast Corridor. The only reason the NEC is still 25 Hz is due to railroad ultra-conservative engineering. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 1 15:48:56 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 21:48:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4807BE.27793.E04852@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 1, 11 01:16:46 pm Message-ID: > > [1] Anyone else remember valves like the 117Z which was (IIRC) a > > double diode recrtifier with a 117V (!) filament. I think there wsa a > > half-wave rectifer/ooutput pentode with a 117V filament too, used in > > cheap record players. > > 117L7/M7GT if memory serves. Another combination was a 70L7 beam That sounds right, but I would have to get the data books out to check. US valve numbers have absolutley no logic to them... I don;t think there was a UK version of this valve. We had a range of vavles with 100mA heters, but te rectifier (UY85) and output pentode (UL84) had heterrs around 40-50V. There was a 50mA range of valves (VY2, VCL2, ertc) but they were only used on the continent. Cheap record playes over here tended to use the turntable motor widing and an autotransformre to run the valve heaters (series string totalling around 100V) and get the HT (B+) by half-0wave rectifying the mains. > power tube with a 35Z5 rectifier and a 12SK7 (or other 12.6V pentode > or triode). Right... > > Weren't there also some European countries (or parts thereof) that > used various DC voltages for lighting and small appliances? (Belgium > or Italy?). We had DC mains in England into the 1950s in some areas. A lot of radios and TVs weew 'AC/DC',not just to save the cost of the mains transformer. I rememebr working on TVs (long after the 1950s, of coruse) with different voltage selector settings for AC and DC mains (possibly due to fact that the smoothing capacitor would charge to the peak and not the RMS votlage of AC mains). One of the Mullard books of audio amplfiier cirucits (including things like the 5-10 and 5-20) includes a circuit for an amplifier (4 valves, something like UF86, 2 * UCL82, UY85) for AC/DC mains. Of coruse it was hot-chassis which is a right pain... DC mains was somethign of a pain too. It was not smooth DC. It came from commutator-type generators and had a lot of relatively high frequency (audo band) ripple/noise on it. Non-triival to keep out of audio amplifiers! Even if the mains was AC, it wasn't necessarily 50Hz. I think all sorts of other frequencies were used in some areas at some times. Certainly Lynmouth (north Bevon) had 100Hz mains until the hydro-electric power station was destroed in the floods of 1952. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 1 16:25:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:25:03 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D472D1B.3000208@gmail.com>, <4D4807BE.27793.E04852@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D4817BF.6897.11EC9F8@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2011 at 16:49, William Donzelli wrote: > I think this is all finally gone, apart from the NorthEast Corridor. > The only reason the NEC is still 25 Hz is due to railroad > ultra-conservative engineering. In my younger days, I worked at Inland Steel in various plants and departments. There were three power distribution frequencies in use; DC, 25Hz and 60 Hz. The 25Hz was generated locally from waste heat; the 60 Hz was purchased and the DC could come from either source (via large rotary converters). The DC made sense as it was used for the overhead cranes (and electromagnets), traction motors as one might find on an ingot buggy, welding and for the large motors that powered the rolling mills. Since the 25Hz was the cheapest power source, it was used for lighting, ventilation, running various control instruments and as general utility. A side effect of this was that new equipment was being ordered at a significant premium to make use of 25Hz. My tenure occurred when the plants began shifting from incandescent to mercury vapor lighting. While the incandescent lighting had a distinct pulse to it on 25Hz, the mercury vapor flicker was probably sufficient to induce a seizure. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 1 16:29:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 14:29:56 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4807BE.27793.E04852@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 1, 11 01:16:46 pm, Message-ID: <4D4818E4.1444.12342AE@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2011 at 21:48, Tony Duell wrote: > Cheap record playes over here tended to use the turntable motor widing > and an autotransformre to run the valve heaters (series string > totalling around 100V) and get the HT (B+) by half-0wave rectifying > the mains. > > > power tube with a 35Z5 rectifier and a 12SK7 (or other 12.6V pentode > > or triode). There was a brief time when AC/DC/battery radios were offered that could be switched between line and battery operation. A 117Z3 or similar rectifier was used to power both the filaments and as a plate supply for the low-voltage tubes in the receiver section. Later versions used a selenium rectifier instead of the 117Z3. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Feb 1 16:36:33 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 22:36:33 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D488AF1.3040006@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/02/2011 18:53, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, you're right. I am sure there;s a limit to the mazximum permitted > leackage current. It's not zero, but ti's probably not that high either. > Mins filters often have cpaciaotrs from the power-carrying wires to > ground, and they will pass some AC current. The RCDs on the supplies into our data centre are settable; they can be set at least as low as 30mA but normally they're set to over an amp and can be set as high as 6.3A residual current. What's allowed depends on the context (and that includes the time they take as well as the current). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 1 16:51:11 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 14:51:11 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 1, at 1:29 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > > http://www.cmadishmachines.com/files/8-2008/UC50e/ > Kromo%20Wire%20Diagram.pdf > > I would look at this and say that since there's no electronics, I can > wire up any old 220 line (assuming the line had the appropriate > current rating). Does that sound right? It looks to me like it > combines the two 110 lines right at the screw terminal where the power > comes in. Looking at the wiring digram, to my interpretation, it's not combining two 115V lines, all the loads in the unit appear to run from 230V. The way it is labelled with 'Neutral and 230V' suggests it was meant for a European type supply or a commercial 230V supply, that is: single phase 230V relative to a 0V neutral, along with a protective ground. However, both wires (230V and Neutral) in the unit have control devices (switches, relays) in them, so it would appear to (should) be OK to run from the two hot legs of a North American residential supply 230V (split-phase 115-neutral-115 with protective ground, with no need for the neutral connection). The spec sheet also mentions 208V which is another voltage supplied in North America to commercial or light industrial consumers (2 legs of 120V 3-phase Y connection). Clear as mud? From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 1 17:53:22 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:53:22 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D470029.70203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201102011853.22484.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday, January 31, 2011, Richard wrote: > Obviously, european penises are 220cm long and american penises are > 220in long, clearly making us superior. America loves to do things > big. You mean 230cm and 240in. Geeze, get it right. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 1 17:54:49 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 18:54:49 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D488AF1.3040006@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4D488AF1.3040006@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201102011854.49960.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday, February 01, 2011, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/02/2011 18:53, Tony Duell wrote: > > Yes, you're right. I am sure there;s a limit to the mazximum > > permitted leackage current. It's not zero, but ti's probably not > > that high either. Mins filters often have cpaciaotrs from the > > power-carrying wires to ground, and they will pass some AC > > current. > > The RCDs on the supplies into our data centre are settable; they can > be set at least as low as 30mA but normally they're set to over an > amp and can be set as high as 6.3A residual current. What's allowed > depends on the context (and that includes the time they take as well > as the current). The ground fault breaker (RCD by you) on the 480V supply the work's main datacenter (which is rated at 1MVA, or 1200A currently - an upgrade to 5MW is coming this year) was tripping on us when it was set to 200-300A, and is now set higher. IIRC, the tripping was caused by current spikes to ground from "leaky" motors, and probably some capacitors or other power filter equipment. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 1 21:58:39 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:58:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102011853.22484.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Feb 1, 11 06:53:22 pm" Message-ID: <201102020358.p123wd5j013320@floodgap.com> > You mean 230cm and 240in. > > Geeze, get it right. Does it matter what colour the plug is? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Anything that can be put into a nutshell belongs there. -- F. G. Brauer ---- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 1 22:40:37 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 20:40:37 -0800 Subject: Because it's there: 5 operating systems running on a IIfx (at the same time) In-Reply-To: References: <4D2EC2E9.8040101@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D48E045.1020604@mail.msu.edu> On 1/31/2011 8:50 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > *Pauses for a minute of silent admiration* > > I am envious of your toybox. Very. :?) Aww, shucks. > All you have to do now is find a way to add A/UX onto that. ;?) > That would be a trick, definitely. Would be cool if I could run it on the Radius Rocket, but it doesn't appear to be possible. (Nor is it possible to run anything later than System 7.1 on it, unfortunately. Would be *really* nice to run System 8.1 on it. Or maybe netbsd :)) - Josh From john_finigan at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 00:44:00 2011 From: john_finigan at yahoo.com (John Finigan) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 22:44:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 Message-ID: <235651.67012.qm@web37003.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Another artifact of earlier days in US industrial applications is > 55/110/220/440V 25 Hz distribution. The power transformers are huge > and the "hum" is more of a "rattle". Here in New Orleans, I am pretty sure that we still have 25 Hz drainage pumps in service, generated by a dedicated natural gas plant. Some of them may have been destroyed in Katrina, but searching around, I found some post-2005 news articles referencing the system. Apparently it relies on 60 Hz power for natural gas pumps, so it's still dependent on the local utility. The pumps seem to date back to 1920 or so. I don't know if the NYC subway system still uses any 25 Hz power or not. According to the book "New York's Forgotten Substations" they still had a few 25 Hz to DC synchronous rotary converters in operation as late as 1999! It would be unsurprising if they kept some of the 25 Hz system in place, feeding solid state rectifiers, but I don't know if they did. The power plant in Mechanicville, NY apparently still uses motor generator sets to convert its 40 Hz power to 60 Hz power they can sell. The plant is mentioned in a couple of IEEE articles, just search Mechanicville 40 Hz. Personally I think this is more amazing than our 25 Hz pumps. John Finigan From james at machineroom.info Tue Feb 1 02:39:24 2011 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 08:39:24 +0000 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D47C6BC.2050806@machineroom.info> > The odd thing is that provide you have the right value in the (internal) > intruction register when you come to execte it, it doens't matter how you > got it there. So in genral there is no unique set of external > instrucitons for a given machine instruciton. There are various ways of > getting bit patterns in the instruciton regiaster. > > The Transputer data sheets do not give the instruciton set IIRC. You > weren't supposed to need it, but rather to use the Occam compiler from > Inmos. There is a book something like 'The Transputer Instruction Set -- > a Compilker Writer's Guide' which gives the instruciton set, etc. It's on > my bookshelf, I assume it's on a web site somwehrr... > > -tony > > You are correct - the instruction set isn't in the data sheet. The compiler writers guide (appendix E in http://www.transputer.net/iset/pdf/tis-acwg.pdf) does indeed have the opcodes listed. IIRC the processor reads one nibble of the instruction that containins the opcode, where 0..14 are frequently used instructions (pop, add, etc) and 15 is a jump out to an extended set. The instruction may be followed by immediate data. There's also the 'pfix' opcode that's used to extend the instruction or the immediate data fields by an arbitary amount. I'm tempted to dig out that JIT work now - this was all very clear at the time ;) James From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 1 06:08:52 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:08:52 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Yes, exactly. The domestic mains is nomianlly 230V now. We get a single >phase wire and a neurtal, the latter being close to ground. Everything is >designed to run off that 230V supply. There is no 'centre tap'. So our >cookers, say, have 230V elements and a timer that runs off 230V mains. > >Actually, the European mains is 3 phase. The final transformer secondary >is start (wye?) connected with the star point being th eneautral. Houses >get a single phase supply consisting of that neurral wire and one of the >phase wires -- to balance the load, neighbouring hosues in a road get >different phases [1]. Of coruse industral places get the full 2 phase >mains to run larger motors, etc. It's very difficult to convince the >electricity companies to run 3 phase mains into a normal house, though, >which is a problem for people who ant to run large disk drives ;-) > >[1] In the cases of blocks of flats, student halls of residence, etc, >it's not unheard-of for each floor to be wired to wired to a different >phase. This has led to studend running extension leads to the rooms above >and below theres so as to get a 3 phase supply... > That's sad. In Sweden houses (almost?) always have 3-phase mains (230/400V), and flats get single phase. A very large proportion of Swedish houses have electric heating, run off 3-phase. A house will have at least 16A, sometimes 25A meter fuses; Sweden is quite cold in winter. Running 3 phase into a normal house is standard. The water heater will be 3 phase, usually the kitchen stove as well, and washing machines and tumble dryers can be connected either single phase or 2, sometimes 3 phase. The lighting and power points will be distributed evenly between the three phases (obviously). Although my flat does seem to have 3 phase. I shall have to check, I only moved in 3 months ago... Jonas From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 18:44:28 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 19:44:28 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration Message-ID: >> Anyone have a manual for this drive or know how to get it work without >> connecting an OCP? > > How complex is the OCP? Is it possible to fake it? > > -tony It is actually fairly simple. It has a bunch of LEDs and START/STOP and WRITE PROTECT switches. It also has a connection to the processor for the RUN LED and the HALT switch. I tried just the OCP without connecting the cable to the processor and the drive will not spin up. There must be just a little logic on the board. I suspect that just adding a START jumper to the OCP connector on the drive will get it to spin up. I just need to figure out which pins. > Browsing the link you attached reminds me of one problem I came across > some time ago... > The drive seems to complain about the missing speed signal. > How is the speed signal generated? > Is there still an opto coupler under the drive assembly detecting the > sector impulses from a crown like mechanic coupled with the spindle? > > It is perhaps worth to check the LED / photo transistor for dust. > When done verify that a proper signal is generated and transmitted to > the disk controller assembly. > > Hope it will help, please keep us updated about your progress. > > Bernhard Wulf I will pull the HDA and look at the encoder next weekend. >> I pulled two RA70 disks from a pair of VAX-3500s that I have. By some >> miracle both drives spin up and go ready when the Operator Control >> Panel is connected. I was thinking that one of these drives would work >> nicely with the UDA50 disk controller in the 11/44 until I can get the >> RA81s sorted out. >> >> These drives are supposed to work with the Operator Control Panel. >> There is a button on the back of the drive that says Unit Number >> Accept. I pushed the button both before and after power up, but the >> RA70 does not spin up. >> >> Anyone have a manual for this drive or know how to get it work without >> connecting an OCP? > > I have used RA7x drives with a KDA50 (M7164 / M7165) without an OCP > attached to the drives. ?It has been a while now. ?I don't remember > there being anything tricky about getting it to work. ?I was probably > using either an RA72 or RA73. ?I'll have to look and see if I have an > RA70 to try. > > I don't remember if I ever found any RA7x drive manuals other than > this one on the net, which doesn't have all that much useful > information: > RA7x/SA7x Pocket Reference Guide, Order Number EK-RSA7X-PG-002 > > -Glen I have Googled for the User's Manual, but have not found anything yet. Thanks for all of the suggestions! UPS delivered the RL02 controller today. We have LOTS of RL01 and RL02 drives to try. We have XXDP on an RL01 that might make diagnosing the RA81s a little easier. -- Michael Thompson From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Feb 2 02:10:20 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 08:10:20 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102011854.49960.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4D488AF1.3040006@dunnington.plus.com> <201102011854.49960.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4D49116C.4050309@dunnington.plus.com> > The ground fault breaker (RCD by you) on the 480V supply the work's main > datacenter (which is rated at 1MVA, or 1200A currently - an upgrade to > 5MW is coming this year) was tripping on us when it was set to 200-300A, > and is now set higher. IIRC, the tripping was caused by current spikes > to ground from "leaky" motors, and probably some capacitors or other > power filter equipment. That's pretty extreme. To me, that sounds vry strange -- 200A leakage current on a total of 1200A load current is a huge proportion. Our feeds are 630A (and that's three-phase at twice your voltage) and our RCDs don't trip -- though admittedly we're not drawing nything like the full 630A. I wonder if it's something to do with the duration of switch-on surges, or something of the sort? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Feb 2 11:29:02 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 11:29:02 -0600 Subject: Variable length (in bits) instructions (was Re: ENIAC ....) In-Reply-To: <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D454EEE.6000705@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jan 30, 11 11:43:42 am, <4D46C375.32236.D329EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D49945E.70103@tx.rr.com> On 1/31/2011 4:13 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > When it comes to variable-length instructions, I'm surprised that no > one mentioned the IBM 1401, particularly in its ability to "chain" > instructions. > > --Chuck > > > I'd completely forgotten the 1401 could do instruction chaining. Now I'm going to have to go find my instruction card or something to jog my memory as to how and where that was done. :-) IIRC, the 1401 instruction lengths varied only in increments of 6 (or 7 or 8) bits, depending on whether one counts the word mark and/or parity bit as part of each instruction character. Later, Charlie C. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 2 12:38:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:38:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4818E4.1444.12342AE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 1, 11 02:29:56 pm Message-ID: > There was a brief time when AC/DC/battery radios were offered that > could be switched between line and battery operation. A 117Z3 or > similar rectifier was used to power both the filaments and as a plate > supply for the low-voltage tubes in the receiver section. Later > versions used a selenium rectifier instead of the 117Z3. Yes, we had those over here too... The battery-only radios would use 4 valves. The later series (25mA filaments) were DK96 (pentagrid frequency changer), DF96 (IF amplifier pentode), DAF96 (detecotr diopde and audio pentode) and DL96 (output pentode). The last had a pair of filaments that could be wired in series or parallel. Theser were directly heated valves, 1.4V per filament. In battery-only sets. all 5 filament secions were wiredf in parallel normally. The LT (A) supply was a 1.5V battery with 2 or 4 cells in parallel. The HT (B+) supply was a 90V (noemally) layer battery. The filaments had to be run off DC of course. So the mains/DC models put all the filaments in series for a total of 7.5V, and put baalsat resistor around bits fo the chain to compensate for the fact that in a directly heated valve the anode currnet passes through the filament (and with such low filament currents it did matter). For abttery operation, the LT supply was a 7.5V dry battery. For mains operation, the filament string was run throug ha dropping resistor from the HT+ line, and the latter was nomrally supplied from the mains via a dropping resistor and selenium rectifier. There were exceptions. I have an old Vidor battey/mains portable that does much the smae thing with the filaments (in series, run off the HT+ line in mains mode), but the HT comes from a trnasofemr and valve (EZ40 IIRC) rectifier. Tht at leat means it's not live-chassis. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 2 12:39:50 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:39:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102011854.49960.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 1, 11 06:54:49 pm Message-ID: > The ground fault breaker (RCD by you) on the 480V supply the work's main > datacenter (which is rated at 1MVA, or 1200A currently - an upgrade to > 5MW is coming this year) was tripping on us when it was set to 200-300A, Dop you mean that? 200A (not mA) of earth leakage wouldappear to be dangerously high in any installation. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 2 12:31:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:31:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 1, 11 12:08:52 pm Message-ID: > That's sad. In Sweden houses (almost?) always have 3-phase mains > (230/400V), and flats get single phase. A very large proportion of No, it;'svery difficult to get the electicity companies to run 3 phase amins into a house in the UK. People who want to run 3 phase motors (medium-size machine tools, real disk drives, etc) have to use some kind of converter, eitehr a mootr + capacitors or an electronic device. > Swedish houses have electric heating, run off 3-phase. A house will have > at least 16A, sometimes 25A meter fuses; Sweden is quite cold in winter. Ah, we may only have 1 phase, but the normal mains fuse over here is 80A. > Running 3 phase into a normal house is standard. The water heater will be > 3 phase, usually the kitchen stove as well, and washing machines and > tumble dryers can be connected either single phase or 2, sometimes 3 That might explain the 'optional' conactor and multi-phase wiring on our wanhing machine wiring diagram. Did I metion it's a Swedish machine... -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 2 15:54:34 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 16:54:34 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102021654.34426.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday, February 02, 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > The ground fault breaker (RCD by you) on the 480V supply the work's > > main datacenter (which is rated at 1MVA, or 1200A currently - an > > upgrade to 5MW is coming this year) was tripping on us when it was > > set to 200-300A, > > Dop you mean that? 200A (not mA) of earth leakage wouldappear to be > dangerously high in any installation. Yes, I mean 200A. When you're dealing with high-ish voltage (277V to ground), and lots of power being used (about 1000 amps per phase), leakages can add up quickly... And, it's most likely a spike, not a continuous leakage current, eg, a short-lived arc to ground from some worn out insulating parts. In any case a 200A short-term fault isn't all that huge. Ratings for typical US house circuit breakers are around 10,000A interrupting capability. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From alexeyt at freeshell.org Wed Feb 2 17:18:43 2011 From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 23:18:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102021654.34426.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201102021654.34426.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Feb 2011, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > In any case a 200A short-term fault isn't all that huge. Ratings for > typical US house circuit breakers are around 10,000A interrupting > capability. You appear to be confusing 2 numbers... interrupting capacity is the maximum current that the breaker is rated to interrupt, not the minimum current at which it interrupts (which is the number that it makes sense to compare to your RCD's 200A setting). For US house breakers the latter is typically 15A or 20A. Alexey From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Feb 2 17:43:58 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 23:43:58 +0000 Subject: VT330 Flyback Transformer Repair - advice please Message-ID: <4D49EC3E.90504@wickensonline.co.uk> Hi guys, I've received a replacement flyback transformer for the VT330. I'd like some advice about what other components it would be worth replacing at the same time. The transformer suffered from arcing but there doesn't appear to be any physical damage to any other components. I've got a replacement output transistor on the list, could anyone advise as to what else would be worth replacing - I'd like to get the terminal back to working condition with the best chance of a few years more use? My gut feeling is to also look at diodes and high voltage capacitors on the output side of the transformer, as well as the two large electrolytics on the input side of the power supply. I'm presuming that resistors don't normally need replacing. I have to weigh up the benefit of replacing components with the possibility that I don't get an exact replacement and balls something up. There are several high voltage (1000V+) capacitors are polypropylene. Do these typically stay stable over time? I have a circuit diagram and could put together an exact schematic if that is useful in helping. Thanks for the advice, Mark. From useddec at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 18:04:46 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 18:04:46 -0600 Subject: VT330 Flyback Transformer Repair - advice please In-Reply-To: <4D49EC3E.90504@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <4D49EC3E.90504@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Mark, If you want to chip chase, I understand, but I can send you a complete board for $25 plus postage. I will need a few days to find them. Also, the VT330 and VT330+ use different boards if I recall correctly. Thanks and Good Luck, Paul On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > Hi guys, > > I've received a replacement flyback transformer for the VT330. I'd like > some advice about what other components it would be worth replacing at the > same time. The transformer suffered from arcing but there doesn't appear to > be any physical damage to any other components. > > I've got a replacement output transistor on the list, could anyone advise > as to what else would be worth replacing - I'd like to get the terminal back > to working condition with the best chance of a few years more use? My gut > feeling is to also look at diodes and high voltage capacitors on the output > side of the transformer, as well as the two large electrolytics on the input > side of the power supply. I'm presuming that resistors don't normally need > replacing. I have to weigh up the benefit of replacing components with the > possibility that I don't get an exact replacement and balls something up. > > There are several high voltage (1000V+) capacitors are polypropylene. Do > these typically stay stable over time? > > I have a circuit diagram and could put together an exact schematic if that > is useful in helping. > > Thanks for the advice, Mark. > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 2 18:11:52 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 13:11:52 +1300 Subject: mice and old computers (was Re: ADM3A Screen Rot) References: <1114.69.95.233.6.1296477144.squirrel@newmail.core.com> Message-ID: Mice just LOVE old computers. A few years ago I was donated a whole lot of Apple II+s/Apple II+ clones/IIes which had been host to generations of mice. (see http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2008-9-04-a-load-of-old-apples.htm) There was even a mouse "mummy" to remove! I should have taken pictures of what I found. The dishwasher worked overtime but eventually I got quite a few of them working! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 1:32 AM Subject: ADM3A Screen Rot > > > I Have Three ADM3A's that sat in my Barn for Years. The Field mice made > there home in two of them. One of those has a bad motherboard that might > not be salvagable [Mouse Crap all over it] though I might soak it in warm > water come Spring then blow dry and treat with 90% Isoprpyl alcohol but > there is bound to be some Corrosion. One is still in the Barn but I plan > on bringing it in when it gets WARM and see if I can SWAP the Top W/the > CRT onto the one Unit that has a partially working M/B. It lights up my > Breakout Box but Shows no Cursor but the tube Dies down to a Spot in the > Middle when Turned off. I tried the one from the Bad M/B and it just > Buzzed. If anyone is interested in the CRT's let me Know. If I can't get > one working I can get something for the Aluminum Casings. But Maybe > someone can use the CRT's. They look OK to me but I'm not familiar with > SCREEN ROT. Shipping the whole Unit would be just to expensive. Maybe the > One M/B is still useable???? > Bob in Wisconsin > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 2 18:24:56 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 16:24:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: mice and old computers (was Re: ADM3A Screen Rot) In-Reply-To: References: <1114.69.95.233.6.1296477144.squirrel@newmail.core.com> Message-ID: <20110202162341.T46661@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, Terry Stewart wrote: > Mice just LOVE old computers. > A few years ago I was donated a whole lot of Apple II+s/Apple II+ > clones/IIes which had been host to generations of mice. > (see > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2008-9-04-a-load-of-old-apples.htm) > There was even a mouse "mummy" to remove! I should have taken pictures of > what I found. > The dishwasher worked overtime but eventually I got quite a few of them > working! Think how much worse it could have been if Apple-DOS had had built-in mouse support! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 2 19:28:14 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 01:28:14 +0000 Subject: mice and old computers (was Re: ADM3A Screen Rot) In-Reply-To: References: <1114.69.95.233.6.1296477144.squirrel@newmail.core.com> Message-ID: <4D4A04AE.50702@philpem.me.uk> On 03/02/11 00:11, Terry Stewart wrote: > There was even a mouse "mummy" to remove! I should have taken pictures > of what I found. > > The dishwasher worked overtime but eventually I got quite a few of them > working! Eeeurgh... I hope you didn't use that dishwasher for washing the pots and pans after you used it to clean mouse-muck off PCBs... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 2 19:37:37 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 14:37:37 +1300 Subject: mice and old computers (was Re: ADM3A Screen Rot) References: <1114.69.95.233.6.1296477144.squirrel@newmail.core.com> <4D4A04AE.50702@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4BBE5BDE4E2E43F8A82797042744C839@massey.ac.nz> Well, they were hosed down (and scrubbed down) outside first. The dishwasher was used again after a few rinses with very very hot water and detergents. Hey, it's healthy to challenge the immune system now and again! (-: Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 2:28 PM Subject: Re: mice and old computers (was Re: ADM3A Screen Rot) > On 03/02/11 00:11, Terry Stewart wrote: >> There was even a mouse "mummy" to remove! I should have taken pictures >> of what I found. >> >> The dishwasher worked overtime but eventually I got quite a few of them >> working! > > Eeeurgh... > > I hope you didn't use that dishwasher for washing the pots and pans after > you used it to clean mouse-muck off PCBs... > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Feb 2 19:51:28 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 19:51:28 -0600 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Looking at the wiring digram, to my interpretation, it's not combining two > 115V lines, all the loads in the unit appear to run from 230V. > > The way it is labelled with 'Neutral and 230V' suggests it was meant for a > European type supply or a commercial 230V supply, that is: single phase 230V > relative to a 0V neutral, along with a protective ground. > > However, both wires (230V and Neutral) in the unit have control devices > (switches, relays) in them, so it would appear to (should) be OK to run from > the two hot legs of a North American residential supply 230V (split-phase > 115-neutral-115 with protective ground, with no need for the neutral > connection). > > The spec sheet also mentions 208V which is another voltage supplied in North > America to commercial or light industrial consumers (2 legs of ?120V 3-phase > Y connection). > > Clear as mud? It's a commercial dish washer that's actually hooked up and running in my kitchen now. I installed a subpanel and ran a separate 30 amp 220 line. It works great. I was just wondering whether it would work on european power. brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 3 00:27:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:27:23 -0800 Subject: mice and old computers (was Re: ADM3A Screen Rot) In-Reply-To: References: <1114.69.95.233.6.1296477144.squirrel@newmail.core.com>, Message-ID: <4D49DA4B.16782.3194C4A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Feb 2011 at 13:11, Terry Stewart wrote: > The dishwasher worked overtime but eventually I got quite a few of > them working! I picked up a NEC Spinwriter from a local law office that assured me that it was working when they put it away in storage. They didn't tell me about the family of mice that built a nest in it. Unfortunately, there's a *lot* of space in a Spinwriter and the nest was huge, with the usual thick layer of droppings and Mickey's urine covering everything. Soap and water didn't make a dent, so I resorted to Easy-Off oven cleaner, which worked very nicely. Rinse again and again, use a toothbrush to get the remnants of the crud out from between the IC legs and it looks a lot better. The thing powers up with all of the right voltages coming out of the PSU, but seems to have some difficulty in determining the carriage position. I'll tackle that when I get 'round to it. If anyone has a schematic for the 7000-series Spinwriter, a scan would be useful. Cheers, Chuck From pinball at telus.net Wed Feb 2 11:40:37 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 09:40:37 -0800 Subject: Computer test equipment... Boardwalker 101/103 Message-ID: <4D499715.4060508@telus.net> Does anyone here use electronic test gear for repairing these old machines? I am trying to hunt down information (manuals, schematics, ROM images) on a device made by Micro Circuits called Boardwalker - models 101 or 103. The group of techs I keep up with have tracked down a few sets of ROM images (up to V2.50, Library V1.60), but no one has found a manual - so far. The device is handy in that it can test TTL and Eproms (up to 24 pin devices) in circuit by comparison to the built in library and it appears that you can add to the library too... Thanks! John :-#)# PS - if anyone is interested in electronic service tools I've included the link to the tech tools mail list & FTP site below -- How to subscribe or unsubscribe from TTL: http://seven.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/techtoolslist FTP site is: ftp://ftp.flippers.com/TTL/TestEquipment Archive: http://www.vectorlist.org/ From stevenm at optonline.net Wed Feb 2 22:47:12 2011 From: stevenm at optonline.net (Steven Michelsen) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 23:47:12 -0500 Subject: AVL road Runner computer Message-ID: Joe, Do you still want to know about the Road Runner? I came across your slightly old post today. Steve AVL road Runner computer Joe rigdonj at cfl.rr.com Tue Nov 4 15:22:13 CST 2003 a.. Previous message: Kaypro 2X starts up with silly display b.. Next message: Anybody know what this HP test board is for? c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last week I found an interesting looking computer in a scrap place. It was called a Road Runner and was made by AVL. I wasn't familar with it so I posted a question here on the CC list about it and no one knew exactly what it was but a number of people contacted me about it and wanted to see some pictures of it. Yesterday I went back and and bought it. I brought home and today I cleaned it up and took some photos. First, the system was made by Audio Visual Labs of Atlantic Highlands, NJ. Second, I ended up with TWO monitors, TWO floppy drives and a detachable keyboard even though the unit has a built in keyboard. After I bought the thing but before I left, I was looking around and found a bigger computer marked AVL Eagle (I THINK Eagle was the name on it). I opened it up and it looked like an S-100 chassis. It had 9 slots with 8 boards in it. Two boards had 8080 CPUs, three boards had Intersil 6204s (communications boards? and three boards had 2114 memory ICs on them. All the boards including the backplane were made by AVL. I'd already paid for my stuff and I didn't think this one was all that interesting so I left it behind. But my point is that I think I ened up with the keyboard, monitor and floppy drive from the second AVL system as well as those for the AVL Road Runner. Anyway here's the links to the pictures. The Road Runner computer and the back of it; . Note the connector on the left that connects to the expansion box. Picture of the expansion box, front and rear; and . Note the the floppy drive attachs to the expansion box and it appears that only one floppy drive can be used on the compter. Small VM-5 (5 inch?) monitor, front and back; and . Large VM-9 (9 inch?) monitor, front and back; and . The external keyboard; . The two floppy drives; and . I don't know which drive goes with which system but I don't thinkit matters since the drives appear to be very similar despite the cables coming out at different points in the box and the drives being painted different colors. Both drives are marked FD-1. It's not made by AVL but this patch panel was in the box with the AVL stuff.. From the markings on it, I'd say that it was used with the Road Runner. OK that's it. Can anyone tell me any more about it? Joe -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- a.. Previous message: Kaypro 2X starts up with silly display b.. Next message: Anybody know what this HP test board is for? c.. Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- More information about the cctech mailing list From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 3 09:22:45 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 07:22:45 -0800 Subject: AVL road Runner computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4AC845.3000007@bitsavers.org> On 2/2/11 8:47 PM, Steven Michelsen wrote: > Joe, > > Do you still want to know about the Road Runner? I came across your slightly old post today. > > Steve > > Tue Nov 4 15:22:13 CST 2003 > 7 years is "slightly old" ? I'd be curious what it was. I'm guessing it was some sort of cassette automation system. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 3 10:31:57 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 08:31:57 -0800 Subject: AVL road Runner computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4A67FD.14005.109F8D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2011 at 23:47, Steven Michelsen wrote: > Joe, > > Do you still want to know about the Road Runner? I came across your > slightly old post today. AVL was the outfit that brought out the Eagle series of systems. Once noted for holding contests to see who could get the system unpacked and running. Initially CP/M Z80 boxes, then later the Eagle PC. But AVL's main business was manufacturing equipment for audio- visual automation, for equipment such as slide projectors. --Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 11:50:22 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 09:50:22 -0800 Subject: AVL road Runner computer In-Reply-To: <4D4A67FD.14005.109F8D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4A67FD.14005.109F8D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > AVL was the outfit that brought out the Eagle series of systems. > Once noted for holding contests to see who could get the system > unpacked and running. ?Initially CP/M Z80 boxes, then later the Eagle > PC. ?But AVL's main business was manufacturing equipment for audio- > visual automation, for equipment such as slide projectors. My bet is that it is an intelligent controller for a multiple projector slideshow. AVL was one of the major suppler of equipment for large computer controlled slideshows, Do any of the boxes have the round 4 or 5 pin connectors for slide projectors? Paxton Astoria, Oregon -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From feldman.r at comcast.net Thu Feb 3 14:47:46 2011 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 20:47:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software Message-ID: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Some months ago there was a thread about setting up virtual machines on an Intel PC, where people recommended different software. I cannot locate that thread in the list archives, so I am asking once more for recommendations on virtualization software that people have found to be good. What I want to do is run multiple virtual Windows XP or Windows 7 (64-bit preferred) machines on a single Intel-based PC. TIA, Bob Feldman From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 3 14:52:17 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 12:52:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Some months ago there was a thread about setting up virtual machines on > an Intel PC, where people recommended different software. I cannot > locate that thread in the list archives, so I am asking once more for > recommendations on virtualization software that people have found to be > good. What I want to do is run multiple virtual Windows XP or Windows 7 > (64-bit preferred) machines on a single Intel-based PC. Bob, take a look at VMWare's VMWare Player product. It's free to use. You can also get VSphere free which is their hypervisor product. I use it at work with great success. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Feb 3 14:53:28 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 15:53:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Some months ago there was a thread about setting up virtual machines on an Intel PC, where people recommended different software. I cannot locate that thread in the list archives, so I am asking once more for recommendations on virtualization software that people have found to be good. What I want to do is run multiple virtual Windows XP or Windows 7 (64-bit preferred) machines on a single Intel-based PC. VirtualBox, formerly a Sun project, now owned by Oracle. Still free, for the moment. http://www.virtualbox.org/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 3 14:55:47 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 20:55:47 -0000 Subject: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <2E087FF4E1884C5089864710C8661129@ANTONIOPC> feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Some months ago there was a thread about setting up virtual > machines on an Intel PC, where people recommended different > software. I cannot locate that thread in the list archives, > so I am asking once more for recommendations on > virtualization software that people have found to be good. > What I want to do is run multiple virtual Windows XP or > Windows 7 (64-bit preferred) machines on a single Intel-based PC. I've used both VirtualBox and VMWare: both are free and both worked well for me. (I've run 32-bit XP and Debian and Ubuntu under both of those; I know people at work use VirtualBox under Debian to host W7). Antonio From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Feb 3 15:03:20 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:03:20 -0500 Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4B1818.7090203@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/03/2011 03:47 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Some months ago there was a thread about setting up virtual machines > on an Intel PC, where people recommended different software. I cannot > locate that thread in the list archives, so I am asking once more for > recommendations on virtualization software that people have found to > be good. What I want to do is run multiple virtual Windows XP or > Windows 7 (64-bit preferred) machines on a single Intel-based PC. And of course, VMWare: www.vmware.com Not free. I use the workstation version. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFNSxgYCFu3bIiwtTARAt/XAKCmECIiaVtrx1VJvQvorHx3iM0nBQCfYs0m Rx9Xczlrm5Q59D426oVExp4= =mx/B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 3 15:05:30 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:05:30 -0500 Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D4B189A.6030409@neurotica.com> On 2/3/11 3:47 PM, feldman.r at comcast.net wrote: > Some months ago there was a thread about setting up virtual machines on an Intel PC, where people recommended different software. I cannot locate that thread in the list archives, so I am asking once more for recommendations on virtualization software that people have found to be good. What I want to do is run multiple virtual Windows XP or Windows 7 (64-bit preferred) machines on a single Intel-based PC. VMware ESXi. It's free. I use it both personally and at half a dozen commercial sites, and I love it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Feb 3 15:32:45 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:32:45 -0500 Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <4D4B189A.6030409@neurotica.com> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D4B189A.6030409@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D4B1EFD.5010408@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/03/2011 04:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > VMware ESXi. It's free. I use it both personally and at half a dozen > commercial sites, and I love it. Keep in mind that this product expects to be loaded on bare metal. If you want virtualization on an existing Windows or Linux system then choose VMWare workstation or VirtualBox. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFNSx79CFu3bIiwtTARAuH7AJ0ZML+HB4pWJD7I9MQGOF1GD9psEgCcDPx9 yJ3KJi44pGo9uJ6ZwvbFRO0= =CQ9X -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 3 15:35:15 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 13:35:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <4D4B1EFD.5010408@attglobal.net> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D4B189A.6030409@neurotica.com> <4D4B1EFD.5010408@attglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, Barry L. Kline wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 02/03/2011 04:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> VMware ESXi. It's free. I use it both personally and at half a dozen >> commercial sites, and I love it. > > Keep in mind that this product expects to be loaded on bare metal. If > you want virtualization on an existing Windows or Linux system then > choose VMWare workstation or VirtualBox. > ...or VMWare Player (essentially the free version of Workstation) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 3 15:34:49 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:34:49 -0500 Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <4D4B1EFD.5010408@attglobal.net> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D4B189A.6030409@neurotica.com> <4D4B1EFD.5010408@attglobal.net> Message-ID: <4D4B1F79.8080403@neurotica.com> On 2/3/11 4:32 PM, Barry L. Kline wrote: >> VMware ESXi. It's free. I use it both personally and at half a dozen >> commercial sites, and I love it. > > Keep in mind that this product expects to be loaded on bare metal. If > you want virtualization on an existing Windows or Linux system then > choose VMWare workstation or VirtualBox. Yes, 100% correct. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 15:54:26 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 16:54:26 -0500 Subject: OT: PC Virtualization Software In-Reply-To: <4D4B1F79.8080403@neurotica.com> References: <1832470576.304942.1296766066708.JavaMail.root@sz0065a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <4D4B189A.6030409@neurotica.com> <4D4B1EFD.5010408@attglobal.net> <4D4B1F79.8080403@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 2/3/11 4:32 PM, Barry L. Kline wrote: >>> >>> ? VMware ESXi. ?It's free. ?I use it both personally and at half a dozen >>> commercial sites, and I love it. >> >> Keep in mind that this product expects to be loaded on bare metal. ?If >> you want virtualization on an existing Windows or Linux system then >> choose VMWare workstation or VirtualBox. > > ?Yes, 100% correct. One consequence of that (I use ESXi at work and love it too) is that you don't have the same access to underlying hardware with ESXi vs VMWare Workstation or Player... specifically external USB devices are accessible to the ESXi layer but *not* the guest OS. This can matter if you want to use portable hard drives or USB key drives to move data around. What we did at work for our off-site backups was to stick an eSATA card in the host and plumb it through to the guest with device pass-through. This only works for certain CPU/chipset combinations. You might also have to twiddle a virtualization-related BIOS parameter or two to make this work. Also... ESXi 3.5 _will_ work on 32-bit hosts; ESXi 4.x will not (we have a mix here). That also have implications for what emulated hardware types are supported (especially if you are loading VMs created elsewhere). Specifically, VMware hardware type 4 works on both platforms, but hardware type 7 won't work on ESXi 3.5. All that aside, I have spent a lot of time working with this platform and have a much happier experience with it compared to its immediate predecessor (VMware Server 2). It's much more stable (400+ days of uptime and counting) and with the exception of lack of USB passthrough, it's been a fabulous experience. So far, I've mostly run Linux as the guest OS on the VMs, but I know the platform supports DOS and Windows guests; we just don't have much call for that at work. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 16:01:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:01:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT330 Flyback Transformer Repair - advice please In-Reply-To: <4D49EC3E.90504@wickensonline.co.uk> from "Mark Wickens" at Feb 2, 11 11:43:58 pm Message-ID: > > Hi guys, > > I've received a replacement flyback transformer for the VT330. I'd like > some advice about what other components it would be worth replacing at > the same time. The transformer suffered from arcing but there doesn't > appear to be any physical damage to any other components. > > I've got a replacement output transistor on the list, could anyone > advise as to what else would be worth replacing - I'd like to get the > terminal back to working condition with the best chance of a few years > more use? My gut feeling is to also look at diodes and high voltage > capacitors on the output side of the transformer, as well as the two I would certainly check the rectifiers nd capacitors for the supplied derrived from the flyback. Problems here could be what damaged the flyback in the first place (I have seen this happen in VT100s). > large electrolytics on the input side of the power supply. I'm presuming Why? Do you have any reason to suspect them? > that resistors don't normally need replacing. I have to weigh up the > benefit of replacing components with the possibility that I don't get an > exact replacement and balls something up. > > There are several high voltage (1000V+) capacitors are polypropylene. Do > these typically stay stable over time? It's not so much that they may have drifted in value, but rather than they may break down when the high voltage is applied acorss them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 15:57:08 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 21:57:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102021654.34426.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 2, 11 04:54:34 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday, February 02, 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The ground fault breaker (RCD by you) on the 480V supply the work's > > > main datacenter (which is rated at 1MVA, or 1200A currently - an > > > upgrade to 5MW is coming this year) was tripping on us when it was > > > set to 200-300A, > > > > Dop you mean that? 200A (not mA) of earth leakage wouldappear to be > > dangerously high in any installation. > > Yes, I mean 200A. Ouch. I how most of that is either for a short duration (switch-on surges) on in quatrature to the supply so that no real power is being consumed. > > When you're dealing with high-ish voltage (277V to ground), and lots of > power being used (about 1000 amps per phase), leakages can add up Even so, it's high. It's around 1/15 of the total current, which, pro rata would be a leakage of 1A on a medium-sizedd PDP11, say. If my PDP11 had that sort of leak, I would be repairing it. Period. > quickly... And, it's most likely a spike, not a continuous leakage > current, eg, a short-lived arc to ground from some worn out insulating > parts. That is precisely the sort of thing I would repair and not just turn up the breakers to get round it! Worn-out isulation (whatever that may mean) is not something I am going to trust. > > In any case a 200A short-term fault isn't all that huge. Ratings for > typical US house circuit breakers are around 10,000A interrupting > capability. That is surely the maximum fault current they will safely break. Not the current they carry before they trip. Over here most decent domestic MCBs will break 16kA safely -- that is the peak current that might flow if there's a dead short across the mains. But said breakers will trip on a current of 32A, say. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 3 16:02:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 22:02:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT330 Flyback Transformer Repair - advice please In-Reply-To: from "Paul Anderson" at Feb 2, 11 06:04:46 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Mark, > > If you want to chip chase, I understand, but I can send you a complete board > for $25 plus postage. I will need a few days to find them. Also, the VT330 > and VT330+ use different boards if I recall correctly. Why should the compponets on such a board (whether ex-equipment or NOS) necessarily be more reliable than the ones on the OP's existing PCB? -tony From newyork.techie at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 17:16:05 2011 From: newyork.techie at gmail.com (John Boffemmyer IV) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 23:16:05 +0000 (UTC) Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn Message-ID: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> LinkedIn ------------ I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. - John Boffemmyer IV John Boffemmyer IV Technical Systems "Ironman" Solution - put me in the environment and I'll make it work Greater Philadelphia Area Confirm that you know John Boffemmyer IV https://www.linkedin.com/e/-silvj6-gjqabyyk-50/isd/2266969373/aJNbndpt/ -- (c) 2011, LinkedIn Corporation From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Feb 3 17:21:50 2011 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 15:21:50 -0800 Subject: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply Message-ID: You folks are the best people I know for scaring up obsolete hardware. My employer needs a power supply for an Acer Altos G510 server. He has contacted all his sources and come up empty. He says, "I really need one." Specifically, we need: STANDARD POWER SUPPLY 450W DELTA/ DPS-450DBM). Acer Part Numbers PY.45005.002 Any leads would be really appreciated. Google gets exactly four hits. Please reply p-mail. Thanks, Jim Arnott Support Services Eastern Oregon Net, Inc. La Grande, OR From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 3 17:44:02 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 15:44:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> Message-ID: <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: > LinkedIn > ------------ > I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. > - John Boffemmyer IV > John Boffemmyer IV > Technical Systems "Ironman" Solution - put me in the environment and I'll make it work > Greater Philadelphia Area > Confirm that you know John Boffemmyer IV > https://www.linkedin.com/e/-silvj6-gjqabyyk-50/isd/2266969373/aJNbndpt/ This is why it is a mistake to sign on to "services" that hijack your address book! From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Feb 3 17:48:24 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 15:48:24 -0800 Subject: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Looking at some specs I was able to find online, it looks like a fairly standard 450W atx 2.0 power-supply, it has what look to be the atx +6 connectors that plug into the power distribution board. On 2/3/11 3:21 PM, "Jim Arnott" wrote: > You folks are the best people I know for scaring up obsolete hardware. > > My employer needs a power supply for an Acer Altos G510 server. > He has contacted all his sources and come up empty. He says, "I really need > one." > > Specifically, we need: > > STANDARD POWER SUPPLY 450W DELTA/ DPS-450DBM). Acer Part Numbers PY.45005.002 > > Any leads would be really appreciated. Google gets exactly four hits. > > Please reply p-mail. > > Thanks, > > Jim Arnott > Support Services > Eastern Oregon Net, Inc. > La Grande, OR > From jrasite at eoni.com Thu Feb 3 18:07:37 2011 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 16:07:37 -0800 Subject: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1FA62997447B4A85828216540E3C5E59@jimsystem> Not really like any ATX PS I've ever seen. Dimensions: 3.25 x 3.50 x 9.0 inches. Slides in from the outside of the case. Case is designed for (2) power supplies side by side. Has a single male plug that interfaces with a power distribution module inside the case. Pins: 6 large in 3 Horiz x 2 Vert arrangement then 15 small pins on 5 H x 3 V then 5 large pins in 3 H x 2 V with bottom outside the empty location. Photos available on request. Thanks though. Jim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Geoffrey Reed" Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:48 PM To: "cctalk" Subject: Re: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply > Looking at some specs I was able to find online, it looks like a fairly > standard 450W atx 2.0 power-supply, it has what look to be the atx +6 > connectors that plug into the power distribution board. > > > On 2/3/11 3:21 PM, "Jim Arnott" wrote: > >> You folks are the best people I know for scaring up obsolete hardware. >> >> >> My employer needs a power supply for an Acer Altos G510 server. >> He has contacted all his sources and come up empty. He says, "I really >> need >> one." >> >> Specifically, we need: >> >> STANDARD POWER SUPPLY 450W DELTA/ DPS-450DBM). Acer Part Numbers >> PY.45005.002 >> >> Any leads would be really appreciated. Google gets exactly four hits. >> >> >> Please reply p-mail. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Jim Arnott >> Support Services >> Eastern Oregon Net, Inc. >> La Grande, OR >> > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 3 18:29:22 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 00:29:22 +0000 Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> On 03/02/11 23:44, Fred Cisin wrote: > This is why it is a mistake to sign on to "services" that hijack your > address book! LinkedIn especially is pretty pointless... "You need to sign up for a subscription, and buy messaging points to send a message to this user!" Riiight... Like that'll happen. Even Farce-book (for all its flaws) lets you message other users for free. Seems the clowns behind LinkedIn don't quite get the "social" part of "social networking." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 19:12:55 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:12:55 -0600 Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4B5297.5040801@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > LinkedIn especially is pretty pointless... > > "You need to sign up for a subscription, and buy messaging points to > send a message to this user!" > > Riiight... Like that'll happen. Even Farce-book (for all its flaws) lets > you message other users for free. Seems the clowns behind LinkedIn don't > quite get the "social" part of "social networking." Hmm, am I allowed to coin the term "social notworking"? Doubtless someone else got there first, anyway :-) From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 3 22:17:49 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 23:17:49 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102032317.49761.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday, February 03, 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Wednesday, February 02, 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > The ground fault breaker (RCD by you) on the 480V supply the > > > > work's main datacenter (which is rated at 1MVA, or 1200A > > > > currently - an upgrade to 5MW is coming this year) was > > > > tripping on us when it was set to 200-300A, > > > > > > Dop you mean that? 200A (not mA) of earth leakage wouldappear to > > > be dangerously high in any installation. > > > > Yes, I mean 200A. > > Ouch. I how most of that is either for a short duration (switch-on > surges) on in quatrature to the supply so that no real power is being > consumed. Yes. Things would have heated up quickly and/or blown fuses if it was long-duration. > > When you're dealing with high-ish voltage (277V to ground), and > > lots of power being used (about 1000 amps per phase), leakages can > > add up > > Even so, it's high. It's around 1/15 of the total current, which, pro > rata would be a leakage of 1A on a medium-sizedd PDP11, say. If my > PDP11 had that sort of leak, I would be repairing it. Period. Yes, it's high. > > quickly... And, it's most likely a spike, not a continuous leakage > > current, eg, a short-lived arc to ground from some worn out > > insulating parts. > > That is precisely the sort of thing I would repair and not just turn > up the breakers to get round it! Worn-out isulation (whatever that > may mean) is not something I am going to trust. I'd agree. The problem is convincing people to spend the time tracking down an intermittent fault somewhere within more than a dozen possible pieces of equipment. Sometimes it's easier to just wait for it to go BANG!, and pick up the pieces. There's nothing irreplacable or unique that it could destroy, and the equipment is generally designed to contain such a problem to avoid hurting a person who's nearby when it happens. > > In any case a 200A short-term fault isn't all that huge. Ratings > > for typical US house circuit breakers are around 10,000A > > interrupting capability. > > That is surely the maximum fault current they will safely break. Not > the current they carry before they trip. Over here most decent > domestic MCBs will break 16kA safely -- that is the peak current > that might flow if there's a dead short across the mains. But said > breakers will trip on a current of 32A, say. Yes, I do understand the difference. My point is that a fault that's 200A on a supply that can probably supply a fault current nearing 100kA, isn't that big compared to what's possible, (eg, not a "dead short"). And for whatever it's worth, unless it's a special purpose breaker, a circuit breaker doesn't trip as soon as the current crosses its rated current, where "soon" can be as long as minutes depending on the breaker if you're only overloading by 10% or so. I was amazed at how long (10-15 minutes) a particular 20A breaker sustained a 25A load before it tripped. Then again, the thermal response of a breaker tends to match the effects of wires (that it's protecting) to keep them from overheating. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 22:44:30 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 23:44:30 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102032317.49761.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201102032317.49761.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > I'd agree. ?The problem is convincing people to spend the time tracking > down an intermittent fault somewhere within more than a dozen possible > pieces of equipment. ?Sometimes it's easier to just wait for it to go > BANG!, and pick up the pieces. ?There's nothing irreplacable or unique > that it could destroy, and the equipment is generally designed to > contain such a problem to avoid hurting a person who's nearby when it > happens. Also, the machines are generally designed to avoid hurting themselves. The big higher end stuff tends to have enough protection circuitry that power supply (and environmental) failures do not end up destroying the rest of the electronics. IBM mainframe and midrange equipment has an unbelievable amount of extra stuff in the power supplies. I do not worry much at all about turning on some old bit of IBM gear - if there is a problem, the machine will give a power check (or temperature check), shut down safely, and will let me know to pull out the Big Blue Binder with the repair instructions. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 3 23:14:31 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 00:14:31 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay Message-ID: There is currently a pretty big PDP-11/44 collection on Ebay (just search for PDP-11/44). It is located in Milwaukee. Will anyone here be bidding on the pile? If so, and you win, I would be interested in one or both of the RK07 drives, but nothing else. Reply off list...we could come to terms... -- Will From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Feb 3 12:12:08 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:12:08 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4AEFF8.40002@axeside.co.uk> Hi there! I'm horribly behind on my Classiccmp e-mails - this one arrived about 5 weeks ago, and I've only just read it. On 29/12/2010 03:20, Richard wrote: > OK, I've been studying the circuit diagrams and service manuals for > the Tektronix 4014 printer interface: > > > > > I'm starting a project to create a modern printer interface for the > terminal. This involves creating the optional target signal amplifier > board for the 4010/4014 and creating a microcontroller based board > that will drive the terminal like a 4631 printer and scan out the > image from the storage tube for digitizing as a digital image. The > amplifier board is what distinguishes a 4010/4014 from a 4010/4014-1 > and provides the signals for the printer. I think that's an excellent idea. I have a 4006 terminal, and a 4052 computer, and I might want to use it on either of them. Most likely the 4052. > The original 4631 printer is a completely analog device that scans out > the storage tube and transfers the electrical signal to a dry silver > paper for printing. This design will treat the analog signal supplied > to the printer as a signal for digitizing into a raster image. I plan > on housing mine inside a 4632 video hardcopy shell with a modern printer > inside driven by the controller. Who knows, this project might make > those 4631/4632 printers useful again, considering that noone is going > to be getting a new supply of dry silver paper anytime soon. I actually have a couple of rolls of paper still in original cardboard cylinders. Probably long dead, though. However... I only have one 4631, not working. At present it is only a museum piece, but if I eviscerate it to put in a modern printer, it is not even that. In addition, while I could easily afford a modern printer to transplant into the 4631 case, why should I when I have a perfectly good printer already, plugged into my PC? I'd prefer to take the raster image and save it in a suitable file format (TIFF?) for putting on a PC and printing on any old printer. This would make it much more flexible, and I think it would be of benefit to do so. > Please reply to me off-list if you are interested in collaborating > with me on this project. Sorry, I lack the hardware expertise. But I'll be happy to copy the relevant bits of the 4050 series manuals for you if this would help. Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Feb 3 12:29:42 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:29:42 +0000 Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4AF416.2090209@axeside.co.uk> Only a week behind, now... >>> In the UK, all 'portable' power tools used industirally (for example an >>> electric dril lused ona buildingsite) must be 110V units, powered from an >>> isolating transformer with the outptu centre-tapped to ground. The idea >>> is that if there's an insulation failuer, the worst shock the user could >>> receive is 55V, which is unlikely to be fatal. >> >> So if you were to go to a store that sells routers or maybe a benchtop >> drill press with a 1hp induction motor, that would be 115 volts? > > I would think a bench drill press wouldn't be classed as a 'portable' > power tool, and thus would be 230V. Certainly small lathes have 230V > motors (and larger ones have 415V 3 phase motors). > > But routers (the woodworking tool, not the network switch :-)) would > be 110V. As are electric drills, angle grinders, etc. Well, a lot of portable tools - especially the ones you get in DIY shops - are 230V. But the good quality ones have 110 versions for industrial use. >>> Over here, portabel transformers giving 110V are quite common. They are >>> often rated at 3000VA (the maximum we can get from a UK 13A socket >>> outlet) and have a pair of 110V 16A output sockets. Or the older ones have a pair of 110V 15A outlets to BS196. Yes, that is what I have... >>> Even if you're `just' an enthusiast, scuh a transformer is worth having. >>> Some power tools, particularly, the industrial-spcification ones only >>> come in 110V versions. And although the output is centre-tapped to earth >>> rather than having one side earthed, the transformer is useful for >>> running US stuff over here, at least for testing (I made up a cable with >>> a BS4343 plug on one end and a US socket on the other). The BS4343 plugs and sockets - well, EN 60309 nowadays - are colloquially known as "commando" plugs. I have no idea why. (FWIW 60309 is an IEC standard, as are all EN standards with 6xxxx numbers. So it should be valid in the US, in theory at least.) Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Feb 3 12:53:59 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:53:59 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4AF9C7.8070209@axeside.co.uk> >> Swedish houses have electric heating, run off 3-phase. A house will have >> at least 16A, sometimes 25A meter fuses; Sweden is quite cold in winter. Are you sure? 16A 3 phase is only 11kW, 25A 18kW. I would expect 60A or 100A fuses. Back in the 1970s and '80s - oil expensive, gas not everywhere - there were a number of electric heating installations in the UK. You either had storage heaters (basically, lots of bricks with coils of nichrome wire running through them) or electric central heating - a tank of water with one or two 9.6kW immersion heaters, and radiators like any other central heating system. In the latter case, they would run two of the three phases to the house, and put one heater on each. Both immersion heaters came on during the off-peak period at night, and you could switch one of them on during the day (very expensively) if you needed extra heat. My parents' house (re-wired in 1978) has storage heaters. Lots of them. One winter we clocked the meter at 36kW during the brief period between the start of off peak and our bed time... If you haven't done the arithmetic in your heads already, that would have been 150A had we only a single phase supply. But we have three phases, with 100A fuses on the incomers. Incidentally, in some rural installations, only 2 phases of the 11kV circuit are taken to a remote village or farm. The local (usually pole mounted) transformer connects accross the two phases and gives 230V single phase, or, in very rare cases, 460V centre tapped to earth. Philip. From d_cymbal at hotmail.com Thu Feb 3 12:55:25 2011 From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 13:55:25 -0500 Subject: Visual 1050 systems for sale in Orange, CA Message-ID: Disclaimer: Not my listing and I don't know the seller.? I was a little skeptical (10 systems?) and the asking price is not realistic. http://www.pennysaverusa.com/classifieds/merchandise/computers-printers/computers/usa/california/orange/anaheim/92806/visual-1050-cpm-computers-10-with-software-300-35348221.html From nick.allen at comcast.net Thu Feb 3 16:47:53 2011 From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 16:47:53 -0600 Subject: Vintage TTL computer Message-ID: <4D4B3099.4020402@comcast.net> Anyone have any interest in purchasing this minicomputer (believe it is a Texas Instrument from 1972 used in manufacturing). It is missing the core memory box however. I have a friend who is thinking of selling it, I had no interest as it was missing the core memory, but maybe someone here will want it? http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TUswHtRykbI/AAAAAAAAB6k/1ne8IFziAUU/s640/DSC01844.JPG From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 4 04:15:11 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:15:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: Vintage TTL computer In-Reply-To: <4D4B3099.4020402@comcast.net> References: <4D4B3099.4020402@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, Nick Allen wrote: > Anyone have any interest in purchasing this minicomputer (believe it is a > Texas Instrument from 1972 used in manufacturing). It is missing the core I think it's a Raytheon, though not like a 70x. The sense switches and the rotary knob are quite distinctive. Christian PS: Using the shorter URL http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TUswHtRykbI/AAAAAAAAB6k/1ne8IFziAUU gives you the full sized picture. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Feb 4 08:50:40 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 09:50:40 -0500 Subject: Vintage TTL computer Message-ID: Nick writes: > Anyone have any interest in purchasing this minicomputer (believe it is > a Texas Instrument from 1972 used in manufacturing). It is missing the > core memory box however. I have a friend who is thinking of selling it, > I had no interest as it was missing the core memory, but maybe someone > here will want it? > http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TUswHtRykbI/AAAAAAAAB6k/1ne8IFziAUU/s640/DSC01844.JPG Wow... where does this machine fall relative to say the TI-960A or 960B? I'm guessing that each of those little cards is one or maybe two bits of ALU/register slice. The TI-960's I've seen (maybe they were "A"'s and "B"'s and not the earlier pre-A) were working at a slightly higher level of integration with moderately bigger PCB's. Tim. From jonas at otter.se Fri Feb 4 03:16:54 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 09:16:54 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >> Weren't there also some European countries (or parts thereof) that >> used various DC voltages for lighting and small appliances? (Belgium >> or Italy?). > >We had DC mains in England into the 1950s in some areas. A lot of radios Gothenburg, Sweden had 127 VDC in some parts of the town in the late 60s/early 70s, even though almost all of Sweden had 220/380 3-phase since ages. >and TVs weew 'AC/DC',not just to save the cost of the mains transformer. >I rememebr working on TVs (long after the 1950s, of coruse) with >different voltage selector settings for AC and DC mains (possibly due to >fact that the smoothing capacitor would charge to the peak and not the >RMS votlage of AC mains). One of the Mullard books of audio amplfiier >cirucits (including things like the 5-10 and 5-20) includes a circuit >for an amplifier (4 valves, something like UF86, 2 * UCL82, UY85) for >AC/DC mains. Of coruse it was hot-chassis which is a right pain... > Hmm, I shall have to have a look at my Mullard book. I seem to remember that one. Jonas From jonas at otter.se Fri Feb 4 04:25:01 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:25:01 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >That might explain the 'optional' conactor and multi-phase wiring on our >wanhing machine wiring diagram. Did I metion it's a Swedish machine... > If it's a Cylinda, it might actually be made in Sweden. If it's an Electrolux, it could be made just about anywhere. Electrolux own 50 brands or thereabouts, and I believe they make appliances in several countries in Eastern Europe as well as in Italy (Zanussi is Electrolux since ages, as well as the AEG appliances division). On the subject of power sockets in bathrooms, in Sweden sockets may be fitted in bathrooms provided they are either earthed and protected by a Ground Fault Interrupter (there is probably a requirement that the GFI be located outside the bathroom), or have an isolating step-down transfomer internally, 220/110 and about 20 VA or so. Houses built after 1994 may not have non-earthed sockets anywhere. My bathroom has a small laundry section which I am intending to use as a darkroom. My flat is from 1963 so there is no socket in there, I have bought a portable GFI and intend to run an earthed extension lead from the kitchen via the GFI into the bathroom whenever I want to use it as a darkroom. Probably illegal but it should protect me (I hope...). Jonas From tingox at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 04:48:00 2011 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:48:00 +0100 Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi, On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:44 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 3 Feb 2011, John Boffemmyer IV wrote: >> LinkedIn >> ------------ >> I'd like to add you to my professional network on LinkedIn. >> - John Boffemmyer IV >> John Boffemmyer IV >> Technical Systems "Ironman" Solution - put me in the environment and I'll make it work >> Greater Philadelphia Area >> Confirm that you know John Boffemmyer IV >> https://www.linkedin.com/e/-silvj6-gjqabyyk-50/isd/2266969373/aJNbndpt/ > > This is why it is a mistake to sign on to "services" that hijack your > address book! Said service doesn't hijack anything unless the person who signs up allows that. IMHO, letting any service "import" your existing address books and whatnot because it is "easy" is a stupid move. If you don't have time to add contacts to a service manually, perhpas you shouldn't be using that service. -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Feb 4 09:33:54 2011 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:33:54 +0100 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "William Donzelli" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 6:14 AM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay > There is currently a pretty big PDP-11/44 collection on Ebay (just > search for PDP-11/44). It is located in Milwaukee. > > Will anyone here be bidding on the pile? If so, and you win, I would > be interested in one or both of the RK07 drives, but nothing else. > > Reply off list...we could come to terms... > -- > Will I have one or two RK07 drives I could sell to get some space. ... located in The Netherlands though! - Henk From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 4 10:05:27 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:05:27 -0600 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 11:14 PM 2/3/2011, William Donzelli wrote: >There is currently a pretty big PDP-11/44 collection on Ebay (just >search for PDP-11/44). It is located in Milwaukee. Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? Nine days to go. Cheese, it would be worth that even if you ground it up for gold scrap. :-) I'm in the area but I don't know what I'd do with it or where to put it. - John From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Feb 4 10:12:52 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:12:52 -0600 (CST) Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Feb 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 11:14 PM 2/3/2011, William Donzelli wrote: > >There is currently a pretty big PDP-11/44 collection on Ebay (just > >search for PDP-11/44). It is located in Milwaukee. > > Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? Nine days to go. Cheese, > it would be worth that even if you ground it up for gold scrap. :-) > I'm in the area but I don't know what I'd do with it or where to put it. I'm fairly close, and have the space, so if the price remains acceptable (cough) I'll go for it. All the rest of my DEC gear is in New Zealand still, so having a decent load-out here would be nice. - JP From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 4 10:38:28 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:38:28 -0600 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <201102041638.p14Gcebu038405@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:12 AM 2/4/2011, JP Hindin wrote: >I'm fairly close, and have the space, so if the price remains acceptable >(cough) I'll go for it. All the rest of my DEC gear is in New Zealand >still, so having a decent load-out here would be nice. You're six+ hours away by truck in blizzard country, no? :-) - John From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Feb 4 10:42:56 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 11:42:56 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project Message-ID: > In addition, while I could easily afford a modern printer to transplant > into the 4631 case, why should I when I have a perfectly good printer > already, plugged into my PC? > I'd prefer to take the raster image and save it in a suitable file > format (TIFF?) for putting on a PC and printing on any old printer. > This would make it much more flexible, and I think it would be of > benefit to do so. If a graphics file is the end format, it seems to me the easy way out Is to use a modern PC running Tek 4010/4014 emulation software (anything >From MS-Kermit to xterm) sniffing the serial traffic and just do screen dumps from there. For the vector purists (e.g. me) making SVG or Postscript or PDF or some True vector format, would be a desirable goal. But with endpoint resolution Only 1024x768 probably overkill. I still hate seeing what I know are True vector lines, get rasterized. Tim. From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Feb 4 10:56:02 2011 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 10:56:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201102041638.p14Gcebu038405@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Feb 2011, John Foust wrote: > At 10:12 AM 2/4/2011, JP Hindin wrote: > >I'm fairly close, and have the space, so if the price remains acceptable > >(cough) I'll go for it. All the rest of my DEC gear is in New Zealand > >still, so having a decent load-out here would be nice. > > You're six+ hours away by truck in blizzard country, no? :-) True enough. But I have a big truck (phwoar) and am irrationally determined. Besides. This weather can't last much longer. Right? Right? - JP From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Feb 4 11:41:13 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 12:41:13 -0500 Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4C3A39.7060109@verizon.net> On 2/3/2011 7:29 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 03/02/11 23:44, Fred Cisin wrote: >> This is why it is a mistake to sign on to "services" that hijack your >> address book! > > LinkedIn especially is pretty pointless... I think linkedin is fantastic. The majority of the people that are in my field, in my city, have accounts. It's a small world, and having a personal contact inside other companies is absolutely invaluable when searching for a job. Not only does it give you access to information that you couldn't learn elsewhere, but just the ability of someone to hand your resume to the hiring manager is useful. Separates your resume from the pile. There are job opportunities that the companies post themselves. You can also track companies, and learn about the number of hires/departures/etc. Do research on the people you'll be interviewing with, and so on. Yes, I understand that there are associated privacy risks. Obviously you can choose how much or what to include in your profile. > "You need to sign up for a subscription, and buy messaging points to > send a message to this user!" Right. You can't message someone you don't know for free, or don't have a connection to. I think this is reasonable. They can't just have people messaging people willy nilly without turning it into a spamfest. You can pay for the ability to send someone a message (from outside your network) --- but this usage is carefully tracked, and the cost per message is way too high to be abused. You can message everyone within your network for free, and I don't know offhand how many levels (aka degrees of separation) you can do this. It's at least direct connections, and their connections. Maybe it's three levels. The point is this: no one normally pays for linkedin, and most features that most people use are free. I had a technical recruiter from a company contact me through their "paid messaging" option. She read part of my profile summary, and thought I would be a good match. I have an interview Wednesday. :) Linkedin seems valuable to me. Keith From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 4 12:36:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 10:36:14 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D4BD69E.14388.F90CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2011 at 9:16, Jonas Otter wrote: > Gothenburg, Sweden had 127 VDC in some parts of the town in the late > 60s/early 70s, even though almost all of Sweden had 220/380 3-phase > since ages. I was looking at the schematics (email me if you want the scans--I found them on a Polish site in rather ugly self-extracting form) of the 1960's Ionika EMP-1 organ (made in the DDR, but used throughout the SSRs). Interesting design in its use of neon lamps and very distinctive in tone. At any rate the power supply transformer is switchable between 220 and 125 volts. What country used 125V, 50 Hz? --Chuck From frej.drejhammar at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 13:03:18 2011 From: frej.drejhammar at gmail.com (Frej Drejhammar) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 20:03:18 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <4D4AF9C7.8070209@axeside.co.uk> (Philip Belben's message of "Thu, 03 Feb 2011 18:53:59 +0000") References: <4D4AF9C7.8070209@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: Philip Belben writes: >>> Swedish houses have electric heating, run off 3-phase. A house will have >>> at least 16A, sometimes 25A meter fuses; Sweden is quite cold in winter. > > Are you sure? 16A 3 phase is only 11kW, 25A 18kW. I would expect 60A > or 100A fuses. Remember that it's three phase with a 2pi/3 phase difference. Your calculations are only correct if we were considering three separate single-phase supplies: 3*240*16=11.5kW and 3*240*25=18kW respectively. If we consider a resistive load in a delta connection, which is the case in a typical Swedish electrically heated house with 380V (the voltage between two phases) radiators, the maximum power available is sqrt(3)*380*16*3=32kW and 49kW respectively. Regards, --Frej From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:08:37 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:08:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <4D4AEFF8.40002@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Feb 3, 11 06:12:08 pm Message-ID: > > > The original 4631 printer is a completely analog device that scans out > > the storage tube and transfers the electrical signal to a dry silver > > paper for printing. This design will treat the analog signal supplied > > to the printer as a signal for digitizing into a raster image. I plan > > on housing mine inside a 4632 video hardcopy shell with a modern printer > > inside driven by the controller. Who knows, this project might make > > those 4631/4632 printers useful again, considering that noone is going > > to be getting a new supply of dry silver paper anytime soon. > > I actually have a couple of rolls of paper still in original cardboard > cylinders. Probably long dead, though. > > However... > > I only have one 4631, not working. At present it is only a museum > piece, but if I eviscerate it to put in a modern printer, it is not even > that. I would agree. It's one thing to canibalise a spare part from an old machine to fix another one -- making one working unit out of 2 broken ones. It's quite another to strip a unit for the casing, when there's nothing really special about that casing. OK, it's likely that a 4631 wil lnever acutally be usable again, since the paper is unaviaalbe. But (a) somebody in the future may want to see how a 4631 actually owked, and (b) You never know if somebodfy will make suitable paper. Does anyone know what the paper consisted of? I beleive it was a photosensitive silver compound, somewhat akin to normal photography. And that it was developed by heating it; thre were no chemicals not in the paper that were involved (what I mean by that is that the papepr didn't pass through any liquid tanks or anything like that. > In addition, while I could easily afford a modern printer to transplant > into the 4631 case, why should I when I have a perfectly good printer > already, plugged into my PC? As I see ot, the main problem iwt hte 4631 is that the consumables (in this case spcial paper) are unavailable now. But if you design a replacement round a particular modern printer (say an inkjet), that is likely to have the same problem in a few years time. Getting consuables for older inkjet and laser printers is non-trivial. > I'd prefer to take the raster image and save it in a suitable file > format (TIFF?) for putting on a PC and printing on any old printer. > This would make it much more flexible, and I think it would be of > benefit to do so. On approach would be to have a suiable memory device (USB stick, SD card, etc) conncted to the interfce. And have it store the image on that. I can later be printed of viewed on a PC. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:13:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:13:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: step down voltage converters In-Reply-To: <4D4AF416.2090209@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Feb 3, 11 06:29:42 pm Message-ID: > The BS4343 plugs and sockets - well, EN 60309 nowadays - are > colloquially known as "commando" plugs. I have no idea why. 'Commando' is the trade name used by MK (a large manufactuer of UK electrical fittings) for that range of commectors. In the same wat that their stanard white plastic light switches and sockets are 'Logic', their consumer untis (fuseboxes...) are 'Sentry' and so on. I must admit that although I've got an MK catalogue somewhere and had come across that name, I was a little confused when I went ot an electifcal wholesaler and asked for a '110V 16A BS4343 plug' and the salesman said 'Do you mean a Commando plug?' Fortunately he showed me one amd I said 'Yes, that's what I want'/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:47:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:47:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Feb 4, 11 11:42:56 am Message-ID: > > I'd prefer to take the raster image and save it in a suitable file=20 > > format (TIFF?) for putting on a PC and printing on any old printer.=20 > > This would make it much more flexible, and I think it would be of=20 > > benefit to do so. > > If a graphics file is the end format, it seems to me the easy way out > Is to use a modern PC running Tek 4010/4014 emulation software (anything > >From MS-Kermit to xterm) sniffing the serial traffic and just do > screen dumps from there. The 4631 wsn't only used with Tekky storage terminals. Pgilip mentioned the 4051/4053 machines. And I am prerry sure my large-screen Tekky analogue XY stroage display has the 4631 connector on the back. In those cases, at lleast, the interfce would be useful. Anyway, if you take your comment to its logical (?) conclusion,you might as well emulate everythign and not run the old iron at all. I don't think some of us would go along with that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:50:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:50:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Feb 4, 11 11:42:56 am Message-ID: > For the vector purists (e.g. me) making SVG or Postscript or PDF or some > True vector format, would be a desirable goal. But with endpoint resolution > Only 1024x768 probably overkill. I still hate seeing what I know are > True vector lines, get rasterized. Actually, IIRC, the 4631 is raster, not a vector device, It scans an electro beam across the storage target in the (vecotr display) CRT and reads out what's stored. And IIRC it does it a scan line at a time and prints the image using a strange, flat, 1-axis CRT onto photosensitive paper with the other axis being achieved by the paper movement. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:30:55 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:30:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: from "William Donzelli" at Feb 3, 11 11:44:30 pm Message-ID: > Also, the machines are generally designed to avoid hurting themselves. > The big higher end stuff tends to have enough protection circuitry > that power supply (and environmental) failures do not end up > destroying the rest of the electronics. My view is that protective devices, whether to protect the machine or a person, are there to do their job if there is an unforseen failure. They are not there to protect against probably known problems. In other words, of coruse I fi a mains fuse of the correct rating in every machine I run. It will hopefully protect the rest of the machine, and maybe prevent a fire if there's a mahor PSU failure. But if I know I have PSU problems, I don;t rely on that fuse alone. I will use a series light bulb to limit the current. I wil lhappily use an RCD t protect against me touching a live part when working o nthe machine. But this doesn't mean I will be careless and work on the machine while still plguged in. > > IBM mainframe and midrange equipment has an unbelievable amount of > extra stuff in the power supplies. I do not worry much at all about > turning on some old bit of IBM gear - if there is a problem, the It's your machine, you can do what you like. But I won't go along with it. > machine will give a power check (or temperature check), shut down > safely, and will let me know to pull out the Big Blue Binder with the > repair instructions. Which if it's anything like any other IBM 'service' manual I've seen, it'll tell you to rpelace FRU from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 3, 11 11:17:49 pm Message-ID: > > > quickly... And, it's most likely a spike, not a continuous leakage > > > current, eg, a short-lived arc to ground from some worn out > > > insulating parts. > > > > That is precisely the sort of thing I would repair and not just turn > > up the breakers to get round it! Worn-out isulation (whatever that > > may mean) is not something I am going to trust. > > I'd agree. The problem is convincing people to spend the time tracking > down an intermittent fault somewhere within more than a dozen possible > pieces of equipment. Sometimes it's easier to just wait for it to go > BANG!, and pick up the pieces. There's nothing irreplacable or unique I see.. There's never time or money to do it right. nut there is time and moneyu to bodge it when things finally fail catestrophically. And youwonder wheat's wrong with the world... > that it could destroy, and the equipment is generally designed to > contain such a problem to avoid hurting a person who's nearby when it > happens. Perhaps you can explain to me the point of an earth-leakage breaker under thsoe conditions... It's nvercurent device (that is, a derive that cuts th emains if the current in the power-carying conductors exceeds a certain value). The normal reason for having them over here is to protect people in the event of an insulation breakdown, the unbalanced current flowing throughj the person to ground will trip the breaker. I doubt that 200A would flow though a person touvhing a live conductor (if it would,then there'd be no point in the RCD in most isntalations, the nromal current-operated breakers would trip). And if it fif, that person would not notice it. Ever. So I am seriosu. What fault is the 200A earth-leakage breaker protecting against? > > > > In any case a 200A short-term fault isn't all that huge. Ratings > > > for typical US house circuit breakers are around 10,000A > > > interrupting capability. > > > > That is surely the maximum fault current they will safely break. Not > > the current they carry before they trip. Over here most decent > > domestic MCBs will break 16kA safely -- that is the peak current > > that might flow if there's a dead short across the mains. But said > > breakers will trip on a current of 32A, say. > > Yes, I do understand the difference. My point is that a fault that's > 200A on a supply that can probably supply a fault current nearing 100kA, > isn't that big compared to what's possible, (eg, not a "dead short"). Ture enough. But what fault would trip this breaker nad not a current-operated one? What is it protecting against? > > And for whatever it's worth, unless it's a special purpose breaker, a > circuit breaker doesn't trip as soon as the current crosses its rated > current, where "soon" can be as long as minutes depending on the breaker > if you're only overloading by 10% or so. I was amazed at how long > (10-15 minutes) a particular 20A breaker sustained a 25A load before it > tripped. Then again, the thermal response of a breaker tends to match > the effects of wires (that it's protecting) to keep them from > overheating. The same is true of fuses, of course. A 20A fuse does not melt the instant the currnet rises over 20A. The currnet agianst time (I-t) characteristics of fuses and circuit breakers are specified i nthe data sheets (and at least over here there are British Standards giving hte ones ocmmonly used). It's often important to allow a higher-than-normal inrush current. I am sure we've all used anti-surge fuses, for example. However, I didn;t think that earth-leakage brekaers (RCDs, etc) had much of a time delay as standard. The idea being that there really shouldn't be an earth leakage current, not even fopr a faraction of a second. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:34:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:34:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 4, 11 09:16:54 am Message-ID: > >and TVs weew 'AC/DC',not just to save the cost of the mains transformer. > >I rememebr working on TVs (long after the 1950s, of coruse) with > >different voltage selector settings for AC and DC mains (possibly due to > >fact that the smoothing capacitor would charge to the peak and not the > >RMS votlage of AC mains). One of the Mullard books of audio amplfiier > >cirucits (including things like the 5-10 and 5-20) includes a circuit > >for an amplifier (4 valves, something like UF86, 2 * UCL82, UY85) for > >AC/DC mains. Of coruse it was hot-chassis which is a right pain... > > > > Hmm, I shall have to have a look at my Mullard book. I seem to remember > that one. It's in the second version of the book that I have. The book also includes the 5-10, 5-20, 3-3, several preamplifers and tape recording/playback amplifiers. It doesn't include an FM tuner design. The older book ('High Quality Sound Reproduction') includes the 5-10, 5-20, their preamps and an FM tuner. The latter was removed from the later book because apparently few home constructors could align it properly. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 4 13:43:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 19:43:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 4, 11 10:25:01 am Message-ID: > > > > >That might explain the 'optional' conactor and multi-phase wiring on our > >wanhing machine wiring diagram. Did I metion it's a Swedish machine... > > > > If it's a Cylinda, it might actually be made in Sweden. If it's an No, it;s an Asko, from the time before they were taken over. > On the subject of power sockets in bathrooms, in Sweden sockets may be > fitted in bathrooms provided they are either earthed and protected by a > Ground Fault Interrupter (there is probably a requirement that the GFI > be located outside the bathroom), or have an isolating step-down > transfomer internally, 220/110 and about 20 VA or so. Houses built after The latter sounds like hte 'shaver sockets' we get in the UK. As I mentioned, I bought a few in a pound shop and extractd the transformers form them -- 110-0-110V at 20VA will power some small valve projects and I've yet to find any other new HT transformers for a pound each :-) > 1994 may not have non-earthed sockets anywhere. I have no idea what the regualtions ontaht are over here. Virtually every new installation (since about 1948) uses the 'ring main' with 3 pin (earthed) sockets and plugs with intenral cartridge fuses. I think the only non-earthed sockets you would find now are isolated shaver sockets. > > My bathroom has a small laundry section which I am intending to use as a > darkroom. My flat is from 1963 so there is no socket in there, I have > bought a portable GFI and intend to run an earthed extension lead from > the kitchen via the GFI into the bathroom whenever I want to use it as a > darkroom. Probably illegal but it should protect me (I hope...). I would have to check the rgualtions, but in a darkroom you are working in poor light with electricla stuff and water. No way would I want to do without n RCD. -tony From frej.drejhammar at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 14:00:37 2011 From: frej.drejhammar at gmail.com (Frej Drejhammar) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 21:00:37 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: (Frej Drejhammar's message of "Fri, 04 Feb 2011 20:03:18 +0100") References: <4D4AF9C7.8070209@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: Frej Drejhammar writes: > If we consider a resistive load in a delta connection, which is the case > in a typical Swedish electrically heated house with 380V (the voltage > between two phases) radiators, the maximum power available is > sqrt(3)*380*16*3=32kW and 49kW respectively. Correction: That should be sqrt(3)^-1 * 380 * 16 * 3=11kW and 16kW respectively. --Frej From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 4 14:08:54 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:08:54 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: <4D4AF9C7.8070209@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <201102041508.54163.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday, February 04, 2011, Frej Drejhammar wrote: > Philip Belben writes: > >>> Swedish houses have electric heating, run off 3-phase. A house > >>> will have at least 16A, sometimes 25A meter fuses; Sweden is > >>> quite cold in winter. > > > > Are you sure? 16A 3 phase is only 11kW, 25A 18kW. I would expect > > 60A or 100A fuses. > > Remember that it's three phase with a 2pi/3 phase difference. Your > calculations are only correct if we were considering three separate > single-phase supplies: 3*240*16=11.5kW and 3*240*25=18kW > respectively. > > If we consider a resistive load in a delta connection, which is the > case in a typical Swedish electrically heated house with 380V (the > voltage between two phases) radiators, the maximum power available > is sqrt(3)*380*16*3=32kW and 49kW respectively. You've got an extra x3 in there... 16A, 220V to ground service would give you 16A *220V * 3 = 16A * 380V *sqrt(3) = 10.5kW. (you can treat them as 3 separate single phase circuits if you use their voltage to ground). They don't act like 3 x 380V single phase circuits, you actually get less power out of them, because the currents between each leg add up (with a phasor, so you get 1.7 x instead of 2 x the current). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Feb 4 14:12:06 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 20:12:06 -0000 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1E61FC26419D4B7F963BD2E1D2E2BC69@ANTONIOPC> > I have Googled for the User's Manual, but have not found anything yet. > > Thanks for all of the suggestions! I'm sure that when I was back at DEC I ran a BA23-from-hell with a KDA50 in it hooked up to an RA70. Assuming my memory isn't playin tricks, then I'm sure that I wouldn't have had an OCP on that! So I'm *almost* sure that you can run one without the OCP. Mind you, it might have been an RA71 or RA72 rather than an RA70. Right now I cannot put my finger on a suitable manual ... There are, I'm sure, some jumpers or switches that set the unit number. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Feb 4 14:41:01 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 15:41:01 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project Message-ID: >> For the vector purists (e.g. me) making SVG or Postscript or PDF or some >> True vector format, would be a desirable goal. But with endpoint resolution >> Only 1024x768 probably overkill. I still hate seeing what I know are >> True vector lines, get rasterized. > Actually, IIRC, the 4631 is raster, not a vector device, It scans an > electro beam across the storage target in the (vecotr display) CRT and > reads out what's stored. And IIRC it does it a scan line at a time and > prints the image using a strange, flat, 1-axis CRT onto photosensitive > paper with the other axis being achieved by the paper movement. I was using a 4631 as late as 1990 to do "real work". (OK, it was academic, but real.) Somebody in office supplies knew somebody in procurement who could get me as much of The silver paper as I wanted. Anyway, even though the 4631 was a raster device in scanning, it still managed To avoid the jaggies that most pixellated devices suffer from. I note that the Decent PDF and SVG viewers manage to smooth over much of the jagginess. Tim. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Feb 4 14:51:05 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 20:51:05 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4C66B9.6050401@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/02/2011 19:25, Tony Duell wrote: > The currnet agianst time (I-t) characteristics of fuses and circuit > breakers are specified i nthe data sheets (and at least over here there > are British Standards giving hte ones ocmmonly used). It's often > important to allow a higher-than-normal inrush current. I am sure we've > all used anti-surge fuses, for example. Yes... the standard circuit breakers used in homes, offices, etc are usually A-curve or (more often) B-curve, but for IT installations (lots of switchmode power supplies) and installations with motors, usually C-curve or D-curve to handle quite long inrush currents. And they're EN standards, so international (sorry, I don't remember the EN number). > However, I didn;t think that earth-leakage brekaers (RCDs, etc) had much > of a time delay as standard. The idea being that there really shouldn't > be an earth leakage current, not even fopr a faraction of a second. Usually l about one cycle of the mains, 20ms here (with 50Hz mains), occasionally one half-cycle, though as I may have mentioned when describing our big RCDs in the data centres, those can be set for longer times too: up to one second I think. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Feb 4 14:50:50 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 20:50:50 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4C66AA.6030700@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/02/2011 19:43, Tony Duell wrote: > I have no idea what the regualtions ontaht are over here. Virtually every > new installation (since about 1948) uses the 'ring main' with 3 pin > (earthed) sockets and plugs with intenral cartridge fuses. IIRC, since the most recent edition of the IET Wiring Regulations, all new installations of domestic/office ring mains have to have an RCD and non-earthed sockets have been forbidden (old or new circuits) for a very long time. Again IIRC, there are some exceptions to the RCD rule for workshops and the like. > I think the only non-earthed sockets you would find now are isolated > shaver sockets. > >> My bathroom has a small laundry section which I am intending to use as a >> darkroom. My flat is from 1963 so there is no socket in there, I have >> bought a portable GFI and intend to run an earthed extension lead from >> the kitchen via the GFI into the bathroom whenever I want to use it as a >> darkroom. Probably illegal but it should protect me (I hope...). > > I would have to check the rgualtions, but in a darkroom you are working > in poor light with electricla stuff and water. No way would I want to do > without n RCD. What, you don't run everything off a multiway bayonet adapter hanging off the light fitting? ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From PETER at beyondthepale.ie Fri Feb 4 10:18:06 2011 From: PETER at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:18:06 +0000 (WET) Subject: Vintage TTL computer Message-ID: <01NXFNQZSD9E0000U7@beyondthepale.ie> Hi again, Christian > >PS: Using the shorter URL >http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TUswHtRykbI/AAAAAAAAB6k/1ne8IFziAUU >gives you the full sized picture. > On further investigation, I find that if I open the full URL first, and then shorten it down to the above, I then get the full sized picture with no problems. However, if I go straight to the short URL above, it fails with the "Not found" error I mentioned in my previous mail. Google must be doing something really strange. Regards, Peter. From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Feb 4 11:47:36 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 17:47:36 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> Tim, quoting me: >> In addition, while I could easily afford a modern printer to transplant >> into the 4631 case, why should I when I have a perfectly good printer >> already, plugged into my PC? >> I'd prefer to take the raster image and save it in a suitable file >> format (TIFF?) for putting on a PC and printing on any old printer. >> This would make it much more flexible, and I think it would be of >> benefit to do so. > > If a graphics file is the end format, it seems to me the easy way out > Is to use a modern PC running Tek 4010/4014 emulation software (anything > From MS-Kermit to xterm) sniffing the serial traffic and just do > screen dumps from there. On a 4006/4010/4012/4014, you have a point. On a 4051/4052/4054, there _isn't_ a serial stream to sniff! > For the vector purists (e.g. me) making SVG or Postscript or PDF or some > True vector format, would be a desirable goal. But with endpoint resolution > Only 1024x768 probably overkill. I still hate seeing what I know are > True vector lines, get rasterized. Isn't it 4096*4096 on the 4014? It is on the 4054. More to the point, though, rasterising the vector screen is exactly what those old Tek printers did! They scanned the surface of the tube in a raster fashion, and read out what they found there. I don't know how well the analogue circuitry preserved the grey scale - my 4631 hasn't worked since I got it - but done well, this could do pretty good staircase elimination. I wonder. How about a PC that sits on the GPIB and emulates a 4662? That could indeed preserve true vectors! Just a thought, Philip. From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 12:12:36 2011 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 13:12:36 -0500 Subject: LP37 on epay Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-LP37-1200-LPM-Lines-Per-Minute-Line-Printer-/390286316597?pt=COMP_Printers&hash=item5adee09435 Virginia ... From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 4 15:37:16 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:37:16 -0500 Subject: LP37 on epay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4C718C.4020605@neurotica.com> On 2/4/11 1:12 PM, Mark Kahrs wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-LP37-1200-LPM-Lines-Per-Minute-Line-Printer-/390286316597?pt=COMP_Printers&hash=item5adee09435 > > Virginia ... Hey, I was just at their facility last week. Very nice people there. I may try to grab this. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Feb 4 15:56:04 2011 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 16:56:04 -0500 Subject: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply In-Reply-To: <1FA62997447B4A85828216540E3C5E59@jimsystem> References: <1FA62997447B4A85828216540E3C5E59@jimsystem> Message-ID: <4D4C75F4.5080309@netscape.net> The system may be in an Intel server chassis. These were quite common and used by many OEM's like Gateway, Micron, etc. Jim On 2/3/2011 7:07 PM, Jim Arnott wrote: > Not really like any ATX PS I've ever seen. Dimensions: > > 3.25 x 3.50 x 9.0 inches. > > Slides in from the outside of the case. > > Case is designed for (2) power supplies side by side. > > Has a single male plug that interfaces with a power distribution module > inside the case. Pins: 6 large in 3 Horiz x 2 Vert arrangement then 15 > small pins on 5 H x 3 V then 5 large pins in 3 H x 2 V with bottom > outside the empty location. > > Photos available on request. > > Thanks though. > > Jim > > -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Geoffrey Reed" > Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:48 PM > To: "cctalk" > Subject: Re: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply > >> Looking at some specs I was able to find online, it looks like a fairly >> standard 450W atx 2.0 power-supply, it has what look to be the atx +6 >> connectors that plug into the power distribution board. >> >> >> On 2/3/11 3:21 PM, "Jim Arnott" wrote: >> >>> You folks are the best people I know for scaring up obsolete >>> hardware. >>> >>> My employer needs a power supply for an Acer Altos G510 server. >>> He has contacted all his sources and come up empty. He says, "I >>> really need >>> one." >>> >>> Specifically, we need: >>> >>> STANDARD POWER SUPPLY 450W DELTA/ DPS-450DBM). Acer Part Numbers >>> PY.45005.002 >>> >>> Any leads would be really appreciated. Google gets exactly four hits. >>> >>> >>> Please reply p-mail. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> >>> Jim Arnott >>> Support Services >>> Eastern Oregon Net, Inc. >>> La Grande, OR >>> >> >> From jrasite at eoni.com Fri Feb 4 16:03:51 2011 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 14:03:51 -0800 Subject: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply In-Reply-To: <4D4C75F4.5080309@netscape.net> References: <1FA62997447B4A85828216540E3C5E59@jimsystem> <4D4C75F4.5080309@netscape.net> Message-ID: <80157C8E145E473280AAFA5C96810884@jimsystem> Thanks Jim, Looks like we found a couple. http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=RoS&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&q=delta+electronics+dps-450fb&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16800835059896139466&ei=Y11MTd72DYyasAPF-OWVCg&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CC4Q8wIwAg# Finally tried searching on the PS manufacturer rather than the computer manufacturer. D'oh! Thanks for your help. Jim -------------------------------------------------- From: "Jim Scheef" Sent: Friday, February 04, 2011 1:56 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply > The system may be in an Intel server chassis. These were quite common and > used by many OEM's like Gateway, Micron, etc. > > Jim > > On 2/3/2011 7:07 PM, Jim Arnott wrote: >> Not really like any ATX PS I've ever seen. Dimensions: >> >> 3.25 x 3.50 x 9.0 inches. >> >> Slides in from the outside of the case. >> >> Case is designed for (2) power supplies side by side. >> >> Has a single male plug that interfaces with a power distribution module >> inside the case. Pins: 6 large in 3 Horiz x 2 Vert arrangement then 15 >> small pins on 5 H x 3 V then 5 large pins in 3 H x 2 V with bottom >> outside the empty location. >> >> Photos available on request. >> >> Thanks though. >> >> Jim >> >> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Geoffrey Reed" >> Sent: Thursday, February 03, 2011 3:48 PM >> To: "cctalk" >> Subject: Re: Kinda off topic: searching for a PC server power supply >> >>> Looking at some specs I was able to find online, it looks like a fairly >>> standard 450W atx 2.0 power-supply, it has what look to be the atx +6 >>> connectors that plug into the power distribution board. >>> >>> >>> On 2/3/11 3:21 PM, "Jim Arnott" wrote: >>> >>>> You folks are the best people I know for scaring up obsolete >>>> hardware. >>>> >>>> My employer needs a power supply for an Acer Altos G510 server. >>>> He has contacted all his sources and come up empty. He says, "I >>>> really need >>>> one." >>>> >>>> Specifically, we need: >>>> >>>> STANDARD POWER SUPPLY 450W DELTA/ DPS-450DBM). Acer Part Numbers >>>> PY.45005.002 >>>> >>>> Any leads would be really appreciated. Google gets exactly four hits. >>>> >>>> >>>> Please reply p-mail. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> Jim Arnott >>>> Support Services >>>> Eastern Oregon Net, Inc. >>>> La Grande, OR >>>> >>> >>> From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 4 16:37:20 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 17:37:20 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102041737.20768.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 04 February 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > quickly... And, it's most likely a spike, not a continuous > > > > leakage current, eg, a short-lived arc to ground from some worn > > > > out insulating parts. > > > > > > That is precisely the sort of thing I would repair and not just > > > turn up the breakers to get round it! Worn-out isulation > > > (whatever that may mean) is not something I am going to trust. > > > > I'd agree. The problem is convincing people to spend the time > > tracking down an intermittent fault somewhere within more than a > > dozen possible pieces of equipment. Sometimes it's easier to just > > wait for it to go BANG!, and pick up the pieces. There's nothing > > irreplacable or unique > > I see.. There's never time or money to do it right. nut there is time > and moneyu to bodge it when things finally fail catestrophically. > And youwonder wheat's wrong with the world... "Do it right" is subjective. You may easily spend hundreds of man hours hunting down a problem that won't show up until there's a major fault, which costs maybe a few man-hours to fix, and is simple to find once it has gone "boom". > > that it could destroy, and the equipment is generally designed to > > contain such a problem to avoid hurting a person who's nearby when > > it happens. > > Perhaps you can explain to me the point of an earth-leakage breaker > under thsoe conditions... It's nvercurent device (that is, a derive > that cuts th emains if the current in the power-carying conductors > exceeds a certain value). The normal reason for having them over > here is to protect people in the event of an insulation breakdown, > the unbalanced current flowing throughj the person to ground will > trip the breaker. > > I doubt that 200A would flow though a person touvhing a live > conductor (if it would,then there'd be no point in the RCD in most > isntalations, the nromal current-operated breakers would trip). And > if it fif, that person would not notice it. Ever. > > So I am seriosu. What fault is the 200A earth-leakage breaker > protecting against? Basically, an equipment fault which causes current to flow to ground, but which isn't enough to trip a breaker or blow a fuse. It's actually required by the US National Electrical Code to have such a ground-fault interrupter on any power distribution system that exceeds 800A. I believe that part of the reasoning is that you can have a "dead short" that's through a thin enough conductor (or strand of multi-stranded conductor), that you won't draw enough current to blow a fuse (possibly hundreds of amps), but which you don't want to trip from 90deg out of phase loads from capacitors or inductors that are acting as power filters. > > > > In any case a 200A short-term fault isn't all that huge. > > > > Ratings for typical US house circuit breakers are around > > > > 10,000A interrupting capability. > > > > > > That is surely the maximum fault current they will safely break. > > > Not the current they carry before they trip. Over here most > > > decent domestic MCBs will break 16kA safely -- that is the peak > > > current that might flow if there's a dead short across the mains. > > > But said breakers will trip on a current of 32A, say. > > > > Yes, I do understand the difference. My point is that a fault > > that's 200A on a supply that can probably supply a fault current > > nearing 100kA, isn't that big compared to what's possible, (eg, not > > a "dead short"). > > Ture enough. But what fault would trip this breaker nad not a > current-operated one? What is it protecting against? Say you have a 18AWG or so "strand" of a thick stranded copper wire, on a circuit that's fused for 400A or more. The strand (shorted to ground) will quickly heat up to dangerous levels, and probably won't cause a high enough current draw to blow the fuse. Wire insulation that has been knicked by a metal burr in conduit can cause a similar situation. > > And for whatever it's worth, unless it's a special purpose breaker, > > a circuit breaker doesn't trip as soon as the current crosses its > > rated current, where "soon" can be as long as minutes depending on > > the breaker if you're only overloading by 10% or so. I was amazed > > at how long (10-15 minutes) a particular 20A breaker sustained a > > 25A load before it tripped. Then again, the thermal response of a > > breaker tends to match the effects of wires (that it's protecting) > > to keep them from overheating. > > The same is true of fuses, of course. A 20A fuse does not melt the > instant the currnet rises over 20A. Yes, but breakers tend to emulate "slow-blo" fuses more than "fast-blo" ones. > The currnet agianst time (I-t) characteristics of fuses and circuit > breakers are specified i nthe data sheets (and at least over here > there are British Standards giving hte ones ocmmonly used). It's > often important to allow a higher-than-normal inrush current. I am > sure we've all used anti-surge fuses, for example. > > However, I didn;t think that earth-leakage brekaers (RCDs, etc) had > much of a time delay as standard. The idea being that there really > shouldn't be an earth leakage current, not even fopr a faraction of > a second. Yes, high-current GFIs work the same way. In addition, high-current breakers usually have a magnetic trip (possibly with a settable trip point somewhere around 2-4x the rating of the breaker) that will trip with just a cycle or two of abnormally high current (eg, short circuit) in addition to the thermal breaker part, which trips on circuit overload. -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 4 18:42:14 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 16:42:14 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 2, at 5:51 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 4:51 PM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: >> Looking at the wiring digram, to my interpretation, it's not >> combining two >> 115V lines, all the loads in the unit appear to run from 230V. >> >> The way it is labelled with 'Neutral and 230V' suggests it was meant >> for a >> European type supply or a commercial 230V supply, that is: single >> phase 230V >> relative to a 0V neutral, along with a protective ground. >> >> However, both wires (230V and Neutral) in the unit have control >> devices >> (switches, relays) in them, so it would appear to (should) be OK to >> run from >> the two hot legs of a North American residential supply 230V >> (split-phase >> 115-neutral-115 with protective ground, with no need for the neutral >> connection). >> >> The spec sheet also mentions 208V which is another voltage supplied >> in North >> America to commercial or light industrial consumers (2 legs of ?120V >> 3-phase >> Y connection). >> >> Clear as mud? > > It's a commercial dish washer that's actually hooked up and running in > my kitchen now. I installed a subpanel and ran a separate 30 amp 220 > line. It works great. I was just wondering whether it would work on > european power. The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V is the maximum potential relative to ground: NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak Of course, the lower potential to ground is precisely why NA uses the split-phase 120/240: it is much safer for humans but you still have 240 for heavy loads. For equipment, in theory, there could be a problem if the insulation rating of some component (e.g. caps) could not handle the higher potential to ground. In practice, it's somewhat unlikely a manufacturer would build anything such that that would be a problem. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Feb 4 19:36:46 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:36:46 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress Message-ID: More progress, I was kindly donated a IWM chip for the Lisa 2/10 by the original seller of these Lisas I have. He extacted it from a Mac 128 board he had lying around. I'm happy to report the machine now boots up. I'm not sure how much further I'm going to be able to take it though. The widget AND the floppy drive both have issues. I feel I might be able to fix the floppy. The widget seems a pretty complicated piece of machinery, info is sparse and I think might be beyond my limited skills. Here is a description of the problem with the widget. The certainly spins and I can hear a definte clack when the break comes off. I can hear drive seeking noises and the light flashes. I then get an "Error 82". From what I can read this is a fairly generic error which just means the internal drive is not working properly. I've tried to install the Lisa Office Suite and Macworks XL 3.0 from floppy. In the former case I'm told there is no suitable hard disk to install on, and the latter throws up an error 96. I've reseated all socketed chips to no avail. It could be a case of just requiring a low-level format, but I can't find anything on the web that suggests anyone actually knows how to do this. The 400k floppy drive has a weird problem. The stepper moves a little on a disk access call but the motor to rotate the disk doesn't go? The disk ejects ok. Things have been cleaned and lubed and I am using DD disks this time. I suspect it might be a sensor problem because once I was examining the drive when the machine was accessing it and tilted the embedded disk up slightly at the front. Suddenly it whirred into life and loaded the disk and the next disk I put in. Then it stopped working again after that. It could be a sensor maybe? Interestingly my other (spare) 400k shows exactly the same problem? However, the drive from my recently fixed Lisa 2 is fine and it was that drive I used to attempt to re-install software on the widget. I'm going to persist with trying to fix the floppy drives. Given that at least one of the drives did work for a short amount of time is hopeful. If nothing comes to light on the widget, I'll either just abandon trying to fix it and be happy with just a working Lisa 2, and/or perhaps simply look at getting one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/Profile-Widget-Emulator-Board-Apple-Lisa-Apple-III-/140494480628 .It's quite expensive though and I do like to have things original. I'll have to mull on it. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:10 PM Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > Ok, for those that have been following this project of mine there has been > progress. > > I had a friend visit today who owns a Lisa 2/10. He bought some of his > Lisa ICs with him for swap-out diagnostic purposes. > > The cause of the Lisa 2/10 failing its diagnostic test was indeed one of > the two ICs under suspicion on the I/O board . It was the IWM Apple > 344-0041 (Integrated WOZ machine controller). The other suspect., the > ROM, appears OK (even though it seems a highly unusual version..I should > learn to use my new (unused) ROM burner and take a copy of the ROM for > posterity). > > However, the widget drive itself throws up an error. First things first > though. I'll source a replacement IWM chip first, then worry about the > widget drive. It might just need some exercise. > > My friend also had an IDEFile ProFile drive emulator which we hooked up to > my working Lisa 2. Whoo hoo, it was great to see the Lisa Office Suite > boot into action. It looked very cool and in 1983 it would have looked > even cooler! > > Tez From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Feb 4 20:54:15 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 02:54:15 +0000 Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files Message-ID: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm working on the configuration file format for the DiscFerret. As I might have mentioned earlier, this is based on the Lua programming language -- in fact it *is* Lua. To load the config, the DiscFerret tools fire up a Lua virtual machine, compile the config file into bytecode, then run it and pick the config values out of the VM's global state. What this gives you is an absolute ton of flexibility: you can do things like use a FOR loop to generate repeated Drive or Format specs. Something like this: for kv in { "pc35a", "pc35b" } do drivetypes[kv] = {} drivetypes[kv]['friendlyname'] = kv drivetypes[kv]['crossed_cable'] = true end In the DiscFerret implementation, you have two config files: - DriveSpec: these tell the software how to talk to a given drive. Basically, what to do with the I/O lines. - DiscSpec: these tell the software what the parameters of a given disc are. Minimum/maximum track numbers, double stepping required (or not), hard/soft sectored, and so on. ( There are also DecodeSpec files, which MagDAS uses to decode transition data into disc images -- and which I'll document when I've actually designed them! ) Here's an example DriveSpec file: --------------------8<-----------8<---------------------------- --[[ ####################### # DiscFerret Disc Drive Specification File # # PC 3.5in Drives A and B, twisted cable or CBL-01A cable kit ####################### ]] -- DriveSpec version flags drivespec_version = 1.0 -- Drive types recognised by this drivespec drivespec = { pc35a = { -- Passed to Drivespec functions drivetype = "pc35a" -- Shown to user friendlyname = "PC 3.5\", twisted cable (CBL-01A), drive A" -- Default step rate in milliseconds steprate = 3.0 -- Spin-up time in milliseconds spinup = 1000 } pc35b = { drivetype = "pc35b" friendlyname = "PC 3.5\", twisted cable (CBL-01A), drive B" steprate = 3.0 spinup = 1000 } } --[[ Given the drive type, track, head and sector, return a list of output pins which need to be set. Called once per sector on hard-sectored media, once per track on soft-sectored media --]] function getDriveOutputs(drivetype, track, head, sector) pins = 0 -- 3.5in FDD settings are really easy to set up. First start with drive selects. if drivetype == "pc35a" then -- Shugart DS0 = motor enable A, DS2 = drive select A pins = pins or PIN_DS0 or PIN_DS2 else if drivetype == "pc35b" then -- Shugart DS1 = drive select B, MOTEN = motor enable B pins = pins or PIN_DS1 or PIN_MOTEN else error("Unrecognised drive type '" .. drivetype .. "'.") end -- Handle side selection if head == 0 then -- do nothing, Head 0 is PIN_SIDESEL (p32) inactive/floating high else if head == 1 then pins = pins or PIN_SIDESEL else error("Head number " .. head .. " out of range.") end -- That's pretty much it, unless we need to provide TG46 on the DENSITY pin. return pins end --[[ Given the current drive status flags, identify whether the drive is ready for use. ]] function isDriveReady(drivetype, status) -- 3.5in drives don't generally have a working READY output, and we don't give a damn about DISK CHANGE. -- If this were a Winchester drive, we'd be checking READY and SEEK COMPLETE. return true end --------------------8<-----------8<---------------------------- So in about 70 lines of code (a fair few of which are comments), we've added full control support for two 3.5in PC floppy drives connected via a crossed cable. With a few more LOCs we could add support for 8-inch and 5.25-inch drives which require a 'TG46' signal on pin 2, or an 'IN USE' signal to mount the heads or switch on the LED. FormatSpecs are even simpler: --------------------8<-----------8<---------------------------- --[[ ############################# # DiscFerret Format Specification File # # 40/80 track generic, soft sectored ############################# ]] formatspec_version = 1.0 formatspec = { gen40ds = { -- format name friendlyname = "40 track, double-sided, soft-sectored, generic" -- minimum track number mintrack = 0 -- maximum track number maxtrack = 39 -- track stepping -- 1=singlestep, 2=doublestep trackstep = 1 -- minimum head number minhead = 0 -- maximum head number maxhead = 1 -- sectoring; 0=soft-sectored, or number of sectors if hard-sectored sectors = 0 } gen40ds = { -- format name friendlyname = "40 track double-stepped, double-sided, soft-sectored, generic" -- minimum track number mintrack = 0 -- maximum track number maxtrack = 39 -- track stepping -- 1=singlestep, 2=doublestep trackstep = 2 -- minimum head number minhead = 0 -- maximum head number maxhead = 1 -- sectoring; 0=soft-sectored, or number of sectors if hard-sectored sectors = 0 } gen80ds = { -- format name name = "80 track, double-sided, soft-sectored, generic" -- minimum track number mintrack = 0 -- maximum track number maxtrack = 79 -- track stepping -- 1=singlestep, 2=doublestep trackstep = 1 -- minimum head number minhead = 0 -- maximum head number maxhead = 1 -- sectoring; 0=soft-sectored sectors = 0 } } --------------------8<-----------8<---------------------------- In about 60 lines of code, again mostly comments, we've added support for three types of disc. Not bad. You could even go as far as generating all of these in code when the script loads. So on to the point of my message: does anyone have any comments to make on this type of config file format? Is there anything you'd like to see added, or done differently? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 20:59:41 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 21:59:41 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have one or two RK07 drives I could sell to get some space. > ... located in The Netherlands though! There are some things I would fetch from overseas, but not RK07s. As much as I like DECstuff, I am severely limiting my post-1972ish DECcollection to very, very few machines. RK07s are on the list. So is a VAX 9000, but I am not holding my breath. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 21:01:00 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 22:01:00 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201102041638.p14Gcebu038405@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <201102041638.p14Gcebu038405@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: > You're six+ hours away by truck in blizzard country, no? ?:-) To a real collector, such trivia things like Mother Nature matter not. -- Will From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 21:11:14 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 21:11:14 -0600 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not interested in the lot, but there are a few bits and pieces I could use. I'm located outside Champaign , IL, Where are you located? Thanks, Paul On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 11:14 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > There is currently a pretty big PDP-11/44 collection on Ebay (just > search for PDP-11/44). It is located in Milwaukee. > > Will anyone here be bidding on the pile? If so, and you win, I would > be interested in one or both of the RK07 drives, but nothing else. > > Reply off list...we could come to terms... > > -- > Will > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Feb 5 03:58:47 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 22:58:47 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: I've now narrowed the problem with the floppy drive. I've been exercising the drive quite a bit and the "non-spin" problem is less than it was. Rather than happening all the time it is now internittent. When the drive is not being accessed but power is on a disk is inserted the drive should spin for a while then stop. There is a switch that is triggered via light beam when the disk is inserted. I think this is the only sensor that detects the disk presence. When this switch is tripped the head ALWYAYS moves a little on the stepper but the disk platter only spins about 60% of the time?? If the platter doesn't spin, and you manually turn it a little very often the next time the switch is triggered it WILL spin. Someitmes after a no spin when you move it manually it spins forward for an instant even though the switch is open, as if there is residual roational force there. Not always though. I'm sure the problem is not with the light beam detection as the stepper always moves. Somewhere between the switch and the motor itself the signal seems to get lost, or at least isn't strong enough to start the flywheel off. It interesting that the problem has lessened with use. I thought maybe the flywheel was a bit sticky but it turns very freely. I've oiled the spindle also. Anyone else come across this problem on old 400k Mac/Lisa drives? Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > More progress, > > I was kindly donated a IWM chip for the Lisa 2/10 by the original seller > of these Lisas I have. He extacted it from a Mac 128 board he had lying > around. > > I'm happy to report the machine now boots up. I'm not sure how much > further I'm going to be able to take it though. The widget AND the floppy > drive both have issues. I feel I might be able to fix the floppy. The > widget seems a pretty complicated piece of machinery, info is sparse and I > think might be beyond my limited skills. > > Here is a description of the problem with the widget. The certainly spins > and I can hear a definte clack when the break comes off. I can hear drive > seeking noises and the light flashes. I then get an "Error 82". From > what I can read this is a fairly generic error which just means the > internal drive is not working properly. I've tried to install the Lisa > Office Suite and Macworks XL 3.0 from floppy. In the former case I'm told > there is no suitable hard disk to install on, and the latter throws up an > error 96. I've reseated all socketed chips to no avail. It could be a > case of just requiring a low-level format, but I can't find anything on > the web that suggests anyone actually knows how to do this. > > The 400k floppy drive has a weird problem. The stepper moves a little on > a disk access call but the motor to rotate the disk doesn't go? The disk > ejects ok. Things have been cleaned and lubed and I am using DD disks > this time. I suspect it might be a sensor problem because once I was > examining the drive when the machine was accessing it and tilted the > embedded disk up slightly at the front. Suddenly it whirred into life and > loaded the disk and the next disk I put in. Then it stopped working again > after that. It could be a sensor maybe? Interestingly my other (spare) > 400k shows exactly the same problem? However, the drive from my recently > fixed Lisa 2 is fine and it was that drive I used to attempt to re-install > software on the widget. > > I'm going to persist with trying to fix the floppy drives. Given that at > least one of the drives did work for a short amount of time is hopeful. > If nothing comes to light on the widget, I'll either just abandon trying > to fix it and be happy with just a working Lisa 2, and/or perhaps simply > look at getting one of these: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Profile-Widget-Emulator-Board-Apple-Lisa-Apple-III-/140494480628 > .It's quite expensive though and I do like to have things original. > > I'll have to mull on it. > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Terry Stewart" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 9:10 PM > Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > > >> Ok, for those that have been following this project of mine there has >> been progress. >> >> I had a friend visit today who owns a Lisa 2/10. He bought some of his >> Lisa ICs with him for swap-out diagnostic purposes. >> >> The cause of the Lisa 2/10 failing its diagnostic test was indeed one of >> the two ICs under suspicion on the I/O board . It was the IWM Apple >> 344-0041 (Integrated WOZ machine controller). The other suspect., the >> ROM, appears OK (even though it seems a highly unusual version..I should >> learn to use my new (unused) ROM burner and take a copy of the ROM for >> posterity). >> >> However, the widget drive itself throws up an error. First things first >> though. I'll source a replacement IWM chip first, then worry about the >> widget drive. It might just need some exercise. >> >> My friend also had an IDEFile ProFile drive emulator which we hooked up >> to my working Lisa 2. Whoo hoo, it was great to see the Lisa Office >> Suite boot into action. It looked very cool and in 1983 it would have >> looked even cooler! >> >> Tez > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3422 - Release Date: 02/04/11 > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Feb 5 04:05:34 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 10:05:34 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/02/2011 00:42, Brent Hilpert wrote: > The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V is > the maximum potential relative to ground: > NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak > Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak > > Of course, the lower potential to ground is precisely why NA uses the > split-phase 120/240: it is much safer for humans but you still have 240 > for heavy loads. I believe that's debatable. Now, I expect most of us would agree that voltage below about 70-90V peak (around 55V RMS) is much safer, on the grounds that while it might give a person an unpleasant surprise, a shock, even across the body, is unlikely to be fatal. Hence the SELV rules and our use of RLV 110V AC centre tapped to ground on building sites, giving a maximum of 55V RMS. (According to the standards bodies like IET, that means a maximum around 40V for indirect contact shock protection, well below the accepted standard safe touch voltage and therefore we don't need to limit earth loop impedances and worry about RCDs on building sites.) Nevertheless, I've often heard it argued that voltages around 230V RMS are safer than, say, 110V RMS, on the grounds that a casual brush with a 230V live conductor will cause a very rapid reaction in humans, often jerking the contact free, whereas voltages around the 100-150V range don't. I can't remember where I read supporting evidence, but it's certainly something I've often heard mentioned, and is one reason we think American voltages are actually more dangerous than ours. All that said, either can give a potentially fatal shock, as both are sufficient to overcome initial skin resistance. Actually, the main reason America uses split phase 120/240 is that given a 120V single-phase main supply, it's much easier and cheaper to provide 120/240 than an additional 240V single (non-split) phase or 3-phase. Just as in Europe, 240 is preferred over 120V mainly for reasons of efficiency rather than safety. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 5 06:50:30 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 12:50:30 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com> References: <001801cbadce$5e8eb4b0$1bac1e10$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 6, 11 06:20:14 pm <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > Sent: 30 January 2011 22:12 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell > > Sent: 06 January 2011 20:31 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working > > > > > > > > A while back I mentioned that I have a MicroVAX 3400 with one of the > > > H7868 PSUs not wanting to work (green light fails to come on). I > > > have just tried the "faulty" PSU in a MicroVAX 3500 and it works just > fine. > > > I took a PSU from the 3500 and put it in the 3400 and it does not > > > work in the 3400 either, only in the 3500. So clearly there is > > > something else that is causing the problem and I am looking for > > > suggestions, especially as the machine is in an awkward location and > > > hard to dismantle speculatively. As a reminder this machine was > > > working fine and I had not done anything at all to it prior to its > > > failure, I had not > moved > > it, changed any components or anything. > > > > My first thoguht is the obvious one, taht something in the 3400 is > > shorted and overloading one of the outputs of the PSU that isn't coming > on. > > > > Could it be something as trivial (but not trivial to find!) as a > decoupling > > capacitor that's shorted? > > > > -tony > > I found the problem was indeed the CPU board. I tested the capacitors with > a multimeter and found one to be shorted as the resistance measured zero. > While measuring other similar capacitors I found the resistance to be about > 20ohms on the rest, but one seems to be open circuit. The replacement > capacitor I bought (but have not yet fitted) also seems to be open circuit. > I tested the capacitors on a spare CPU board I have and they too were > generally about 20ohms. What values should I expect for resistance? Have I > got a load of capacitors which are all about to fail? > > Regards > > Rob I was checking the capacitors in-circuit and understand that this is not correct. However, I would have thought that a 0 ohm measurement in-circuit would indicate a shorted capacitor because there would surely not be any point designing a circuit where both ends of the capacitor are connected together? That capacitor also measured differently on a working board so it was clearly suspect. However when I de-soldered it, it turned out to be open circuit. The resistance in-circuit was not absolutely 0 though, although it had seemed negligibly close, so it must have been the surrounding load as has been suggested to me. Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would an absolutely 0 ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a shorted cap for the reason I suggest above? Thanks Rob From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 08:22:55 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 09:22:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Here's an example DriveSpec file: (snip) > In about 60 lines of code, again mostly comments, we've added support for > three types of disc. Not bad. You could even go as far as generating all of > these in code when the script loads. > > So on to the point of my message: does anyone have any comments to make on > this type of config file format? > > Is there anything you'd like to see added, or done differently? That's actually quite clear and lua is not as scary as I thought it might be (had it confused with Erlang in my head). Does the scripting language talk to a C/C++ library at the low level, or do you twiddle bits directly? IF the former (and I mentioned this in a note to you already) it should be possible to auto-generate script bindings with SWIG and offer scripting support under, e.g. Perl, Python, etc. in addition to Lua. Can you elaborate just a wee bit on how the script talks to hardware? Steve -- From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 08:39:27 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 06:39:27 -0800 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> References: <001801cbadce$5e8eb4b0$1bac1e10$@ntlworld.com> from,"Rob Jarratt" at Jan 6, 11 06:20:14 pm , <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com>, <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com ---SNIP--- > > I was checking the capacitors in-circuit and understand that this is not > correct. > > However, I would have thought that a 0 ohm measurement in-circuit would > indicate a shorted capacitor because there would surely not be any point > designing a circuit where both ends of the capacitor are connected together? > That capacitor also measured differently on a working board so it was > clearly suspect. However when I de-soldered it, it turned out to be open > circuit. The resistance in-circuit was not absolutely 0 though, although it > had seemed negligibly close, so it must have been the surrounding load as > has been suggested to me. > > Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would an absolutely 0 > ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a shorted cap for the reason I > suggest above? > > Thanks > > Rob > Hi Rob The 0 ohms indicates a short but doesn't tell you what is shorted. It could be the cap you are measuring at or one half way across the board. It may not even be a cap since there are many ICs also across the power lines. I have a method that works quite well at finding such shorts but requires a uV meter or a good 5 digit meter and a bench power supply that can be set on current limit. Alternate methods use a bench supply set on current limit and hunt around with ones funger or take a picture in the dark without the flash. Also, there is that thermal paper. The hunt and peck method of lifting one lead of each part until you find the shorted one. Some have success with a two lead ohm meter but I've not seen this work well. A 4 lead has a better chance. Dwight From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 09:16:50 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 10:16:50 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Nevertheless, I've often heard it argued that voltages around 230V RMS are > safer than, say, 110V RMS, on the grounds that a casual brush with a 230V > live conductor will cause a very rapid reaction in humans, often jerking the > contact free, whereas voltages around the 100-150V range don't. ?I can't > remember where I read supporting evidence, but it's certainly something I've > often heard mentioned, and is one reason we think American voltages are > actually more dangerous than ours. This reasoning sounds really flawed. A jolt of unexpected 120 V AC will certainly make the muscles do uncontrolled things. It is the "uncontrolled things" that cause nearly all the injuries and deaths - things like falling off ladders, whacking elbows against walls, hitting oneself in the face with tools, etc.. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:05:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:05:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Feb 4, 11 05:47:36 pm Message-ID: > I wonder. How about a PC that sits on the GPIB and emulates a 4662? > That could indeed preserve true vectors! The Tektronix terminals (as opposed to the 405x computers) don't have n GPIB interface for the 4662. And the analogue storage displays certain;y ahve no way to drive this plotter. I didn;t think that consumables for the 4662 were difficult to find. From what I remember, the pen carriage has a thereded insert, and the thread will take a standard Rotring drawing pen. It's best to remove the barrel from the ben and just fit the nib/ink cartridge, of course. I have no diea what the multi-pen version takes, I only have the single-pen one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:12:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:12:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <4D4C66AA.6030700@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Feb 4, 11 08:50:50 pm Message-ID: > > On 04/02/2011 19:43, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I have no idea what the regualtions ontaht are over here. Virtually every > > new installation (since about 1948) uses the 'ring main' with 3 pin > > (earthed) sockets and plugs with intenral cartridge fuses. > > IIRC, since the most recent edition of the IET Wiring Regulations, all > new installations of domestic/office ring mains have to have an RCD and > non-earthed sockets have been forbidden (old or new circuits) for a very > long time. Again IIRC, there are some exceptions to the RCD rule for > workshops and the like. I beileive you are right. I think 2-pin transformer-isolated shaver sockets (with no earth) are sill permitted, though. Until quite receently 2-pin non-isoalted shaver sockets were still allowed in bedrooms, etc. I have no idea if that's still the case, I've never used one, and never intend to. > > I would have to check the rgualtions, but in a darkroom you are working > > in poor light with electricla stuff and water. No way would I want to do > > without n RCD. > > What, you don't run everything off a multiway bayonet adapter hanging > off the light fitting? ;-) Err, no... Although I have at least one book which suggests using such a connector on your electronics workbench because it can't fall out... No thangs! I am suprse the bayonet lampholder is still permitted, given that it is no way touvhproof. Yes, the better brands (MK for example) have internal switches to disconnct the contacts when the blub is removed, but plenty ofo makes don't. Even more stupidly, when they came up with a new lampholder designed to ensure the use of low-energy bubls, it's the same as the BC holder just with 3 (not 2) loacting pins. They should have had a total redeisgn with touchproof contacts IMHO. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:23:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:23:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102041737.20768.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Feb 4, 11 05:37:20 pm Message-ID: > "Do it right" is subjective. You may easily spend hundreds of man hours True enough... However, I don't think that turning up circuit breakers (whether over-currnet ones or RCDs) to get over intermittant breakdown of old insulation is ever 'doing it right'. Similarly, it's hard to think of a case where increasing the currnt rating of a protective device for no good reason is 'doing it right'. If the device is trippign becauseo f a genuine current surge that yuu know about and can show is safe, then fine. But otherwise, IMHO you need to find why the deive is tripping, not just turn it up and hope the problem goes away. > hunting down a problem that won't show up until there's a major fault, > which costs maybe a few man-hours to fix, and is simple to find once it > has gone "boom". Given the sort of energies you are dealing with, I am not at all convicves it will go 'boom' safely. > > So I am seriosu. What fault is the 200A earth-leakage breaker > > protecting against? > > Basically, an equipment fault which causes current to flow to ground, > but which isn't enough to trip a breaker or blow a fuse. > > It's actually required by the US National Electrical Code to have such a > ground-fault interrupter on any power distribution system that exceeds > 800A. RCDs are requried over here too. But normally they're regarded as protection against shock -- that is against a person coming into contect wit ha live part. Overcurrnt protection is something else entirely. > I believe that part of the reasoning is that you can have a "dead short" > that's through a thin enough conductor (or strand of multi-stranded > conductor), that you won't draw enough current to blow a fuse (possibly > hundreds of amps), but which you don't want to trip from 90deg out of > phase loads from capacitors or inductors that are acting as power > filters. [...] > Say you have a 18AWG or so "strand" of a thick stranded copper wire, on > a circuit that's fused for 400A or more. The strand (shorted to ground) > will quickly heat up to dangerous levels, and probably won't cause a > high enough current draw to blow the fuse. Hang on a second. Your RCD trips at 200A or so. What if you have an earth fault that sould only carry 100A. It will not trip either breker, but it certian;y could dispate enoguh power to do a lot of damage. > Yes, but breakers tend to emulate "slow-blo" fuses more than "fast-blo" > ones. Depends a lot on the breakers and how they work. Electromagnetically-operated circuit breakers tend to be fast-tripping, thermal ones slower/ Both types are made (or were made last time I looked at them). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:27:11 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:27:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 4, 11 04:42:14 pm Message-ID: > The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V is=20= > > the maximum potential relative to ground: > NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak > Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak That's one difference. The other difference is that in the States you have a centre-tap available. > > Of course, the lower potential to ground is precisely why NA uses the=20 > split-phase 120/240: it is much safer for humans but you still have 240=20= > > for heavy loads. > > For equipment, in theory, there could be a problem if the insulation=20 > rating of some component (e.g. caps) could not handle the higher=20 > potential to ground. In practice, it's somewhat unlikely a manufacturer=20= > > would build anything such that that would be a problem. They certianly shouldn't. I don't know what your regulations require, but over here I belive it has to be able to stand at least twice the mains voltage between the current-carrying wires and ground. I test everyting at 1000V (and repair it if there's any leakage I can't justify). Note that 'everything' includes brand-new stuff too, and yus, I've had the odd faiulur (in fact classic computing equipment seems to be rahter better than new stuff in this regard). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:33:45 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:33:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 5, 11 02:36:46 pm Message-ID: > > More progress, > > I was kindly donated a IWM chip for the Lisa 2/10 by the original seller of > these Lisas I have. He extacted it from a Mac 128 board he had lying > around. > > I'm happy to report the machine now boots up. I'm not sure how much further > I'm going to be able to take it though. The widget AND the floppy drive both > have issues. I feel I might be able to fix the floppy. The widget seems a > pretty complicated piece of machinery, info is sparse and I think might be > beyond my limited skills. I seem to rememebr the Widget schematics are out there, which may be a start. On the other hand it does look complicated, and there are some custom parts in there that are presumably hard to find. > > Here is a description of the problem with the widget. The certainly spins > and I can hear a definte clack when the break comes off. I can hear drive > seeking noises and the light flashes. I then get an "Error 82". From what > I can read this is a fairly generic error which just means the internal > drive is not working properly. I've tried to install the Lisa Office Suite tThis does sound like it could a format/heads/disks problem. Or maybe an electrronic failure in the read amplifier or in the serial->parallel converter, etc. > and Macworks XL 3.0 from floppy. In the former case I'm told there is no > suitable hard disk to install on, and the latter throws up an error 96. > I've reseated all socketed chips to no avail. It could be a case of just > requiring a low-level format, but I can't find anything on the web that > suggests anyone actually knows how to do this. I am not an expert on these machines, but I seem to rememebr that at least one Apple hard drive is controlled by a COP400 series microcontorller, and to format it you need to (temporarily) fit a microcontrolelr with differnetr firmware. There is a prototyping version fo said microcontroller which takes an EPROM in a piggyback socket, but that is hard to find. And AFAIK nobody has the firmware for it anyway. > > The 400k floppy drive has a weird problem. The stepper moves a little on a > disk access call but the motor to rotate the disk doesn't go? The disk > ejects ok. Things have been cleaned and lubed and I am using DD disks this > time. I suspect it might be a sensor problem because once I was examining > the drive when the machine was accessing it and tilted the embedded disk up > slightly at the front. Suddenly it whirred into life and loaded the disk and Mybe. COuld be a bad connection that you distubed... How does the disk sensor work on this drive? Is it a mechancial switch or waht? If it is a switch, it might well be dirty contacts in the switch (Mac 800K drives were prone to this). Sometiems squiring propan-2-ol into the switch and frobbign it will get it to work again, but it's better to replac it if you can find one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:46:51 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:46:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 5, 11 10:58:47 pm Message-ID: [Spindle motor problems] > I'm sure the problem is not with the light beam detection as the stepper > always moves. Somewhere between the switch and the motor itself the signal > seems to get lost, or at least isn't strong enough to start the flywheel > off. It interesting that the problem has lessened with use. I thought > maybe the flywheel was a bit sticky but it turns very freely. I've oiled > the spindle also. These motors are so-called 'electornically commutated'. Rather than having a mechncial commutator and brushgear like the mtoros you see in many books, they have (normally) 3 sets of windigns that are electronically controleld and sequenced in the right order nad at the right freqency to get the motor to turn. The position of the rotor/flywheel is detected by hall effect devies (magnetic sensors) on the PCB. If one hall-effect sensor or the drive to one set of windings is faulty, then the motor may well stop in a place where it can'r restart (in that there will be no drive to any winding when you try to start it). Of course once the motor has got going, the intertial of the flywheel keeps it going past the 'bad bit'. The motor is probsbly cvntorlled by a semi-custom IC. If you are lucky it will only be semi-cucstom, certainly in some of the floppy drives I've repaired, I've mamanged to get the motor cotnrol ICs as spare parts. Apparently they were used in VCRs for motor control too [1]. You migth try entering the numbers of an ICs near the motor widings and hall effect devices into datasheetarchive or similar to see if you can get data sheets,. If you find a 'burshless motor control IC' or simialr, it's a fair bet you've found th espindle motor driver chip. Then you can use a 'scope to see if it's getting inputs from the hall-eddect sensors and driving the coils properly. [1] Not quite the same thing, but the motor speed control ICs in my Canon CX printer have a pin labelled '33/45' in the data sheet. They were obviosuly designed for use in record player turntables... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 09:53:57 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:53:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Feb 5, 11 12:50:30 pm Message-ID: > I was checking the capacitors in-circuit and understand that this is not > correct. > > However, I would have thought that a 0 ohm measurement in-circuit would > indicate a shorted capacitor because there would surely not be any point > designing a circuit where both ends of the capacitor are connected together? Yes and no... Firstly, there is one very common circuit (common in the world, not in classic computers) which effectively shorts out a capacitor, at least for DC tests. And that, of course, is a parallel LC (inductor/capacitor) tuned circuit. An inductor should have a very low DC resistance, of course. Secondly, the fact that 2 poitns on a PCB test as being shorted together meands that _something_ is connecting them. That something doesn't have to be the obvious compomnent between them. That capacitor is presumably conencted to other components. A short in one of those could be the problem. > Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would an absolutely 0 > ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a shorted cap for the reason I > suggest above? There's no simple way, it's easier just ot desolder at least one end and test them effectively out-of-circuit. The fact that you've found something that's shorted that shouldn't be is a clue I think. What does that capacitor connect to (it may be easier to trace this o nthe good PCB where the 2 ends don't test as being shorted together). -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Feb 5 11:45:19 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:45:19 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/02/2011 15:16, William Donzelli wrote: >> Nevertheless, I've often heard it argued that voltages around 230V RMS are >> safer than, say, 110V RMS, on the grounds that a casual brush with a 230V >> live conductor will cause a very rapid reaction in humans, often jerking the >> contact free, whereas voltages around the 100-150V range don't. I can't >> remember where I read supporting evidence, but it's certainly something I've >> often heard mentioned, and is one reason we think American voltages are >> actually more dangerous than ours. > > This reasoning sounds really flawed. A jolt of unexpected 120 V AC > will certainly make the muscles do uncontrolled things. I think there's something in it, but I agree that just about any shock will make muscles do uncontrolled things. I certainly wouldn't take less care on a 230V circuit than a 120V one, OR vice versa. OTOH I've had a shock from a slightly lower voltage that was painful (and potentially dangerous) but not sharp enough to jerk my fingers off the wire. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 12:15:13 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 10:15:13 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> References: , , <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2011 at 17:45, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I think there's something in it, but I agree that just about any shock > will make muscles do uncontrolled things. I certainly wouldn't take > less care on a 230V circuit than a 120V one, OR vice versa. OTOH I've > had a shock from a slightly lower voltage that was painful (and > potentially dangerous) but not sharp enough to jerk my fingers off the > wire. Hmm, you'd think that someone would have thought of powering "universal motor" tools, such as saws and drills used on construction sites with DC as a safety measure. The current level at which one loses muscle control is substantially higher with DC than with AC. Many power tools sold in the US have no 3rd wire for grounding at all, instead, a "double insulated" method of construction is used. What's curious is that such tools often employ the "large blade = neutra, small blade = line" polarized plugs. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Feb 5 12:27:06 2011 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 18:27:06 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com> References: , , <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D4D967A.4010608@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/02/2011 18:15, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Many power tools sold in the US have no 3rd wire for grounding at > all, instead, a "double insulated" method of construction is used. Same here (most are DI) but it doesn't stop them getting wet, or stop cables getting frayed. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 13:04:55 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:04:55 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > I think there's something in it, but I agree that just about any shock will > make muscles do uncontrolled things. The most "shocking" thing about getting shocked with house current is not the pain, nor the involuntary muscle movement, but the surprise. Most people never expect to get shocked, and the weird sensation will cause a panic, with the brain thinking "pull out!" and the muscles perhaps not following orders exactly, all with perhaps a little bit of a flash-bang effect - and then the injury happens (falling off ladders, etc.). Look at electricians, especially ones that repair old installations. They get bitten all the time, and they really don't flinch much at all. They are used to getting shocked. 120 V AC really does not hurt much at all, and 240 V is only slightly more painful - and I am not talking about whack your thumb with the hammer pain, here. A fair number of electricians actually test wires with their fingers. It is mostly just a very weird sensation. Get used to it, respect it, and it is not really an issue. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 13:06:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 11:06:02 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D967A.4010608@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D4D967A.4010608@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2011 at 18:27, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Same here (most are DI) but it doesn't stop them getting wet, or stop > cables getting frayed. That's always bothered me a bit. I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil laminations. While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. On electronic (i.e. personal computer) gear, I wonder if the role of the ever-present ground wire isn't more for RF noise than actual safety protection. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 13:10:19 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:10:19 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4D967A.4010608@dunnington.plus.com> <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > That's always bothered me a bit. ?I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a > drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil > laminations. ?While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. Get a cordless. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 13:36:26 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 11:36:26 -0800 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 10:31 AM, Michael Thompson wrote: > > There is a DIP switch on the back next to the Fault and Ready LEDs > that is labeled Unit Number Select. Next to the DIP switch is a > pushbutton labeled Unit Number Accept. I have all of the DIP switches > off, I suspect for Unit Number 0. I tried pushing the Unit Number > Select push button both after the drive was powered up and while it > was being powered up. It does not spinup. I just now connected an RA70 to an M7164/M7165 KDA50 in my 4000-700A. On powering up the RA70 by itself it does nothing. On powering up the 4000-700A the RA70 still does nothing. On doing a >>>SHOW DEV the RA70 appears in the device list as DUA0 but still does nothing. It is not until I do a >>>BOOT DUA0 that that RA70 spins up. This is with just a bare RA70 with no OCP attached. It appears that the RA70 needs to be commanded to spinup by the controller before it will do so and it will not spinup on its own. -Glen From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 5 13:45:11 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 11:45:11 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> References: <201101302252.46529.pat@computer-refuge.org> <09d0fe2577e6d9645af08efa1bd77b11@cs.ubc.ca> <4D4D20EE.2000704@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <0d361b861d82cfc019e062f73025ff09@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 5, at 2:05 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 05/02/2011 00:42, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V >> is the maximum potential relative to ground: >> NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak >> Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak >> Of course, the lower potential to ground is precisely why NA uses the >> split-phase 120/240: it is much safer for humans but you still have >> 240 for heavy loads. > > I believe that's debatable. > > Now, I expect most of us would agree that voltage below about 70-90V > peak (around 55V RMS) is much safer, on the grounds that while it > might give a person an unpleasant surprise, a shock, even across the > body, is unlikely to be fatal. Hence the SELV rules and our use of > RLV 110V AC centre tapped to ground on building sites, giving a > maximum of 55V RMS. (According to the standards bodies like IET, that > means a maximum around 40V for indirect contact shock protection, well > below the accepted standard safe touch voltage and therefore we don't > need to limit earth loop impedances and worry about RCDs on building > sites.) > > Nevertheless, I've often heard it argued that voltages around 230V RMS > are safer than, say, 110V RMS, on the grounds that a casual brush with > a 230V live conductor will cause a very rapid reaction in humans, > often jerking the contact free, whereas voltages around the 100-150V > range don't. I can't remember where I read supporting evidence, but > it's certainly something I've often heard mentioned, and is one reason > we think American voltages are actually more dangerous than ours. All > that said, either can give a potentially fatal shock, as both are > sufficient to overcome initial skin resistance. I have heard that argument too, but I'm not at all convinced by it. It strikes me more as 230V system users trying to justify why it's 'better', or 'not less safe'. As someone with direct experience working with both voltages (relative to ground), I'm not fond of being shocked by either level, but I can tell you quite quickly which level I prefer to work around and 'prefer' to come in contact with. It varies between individuals and conditions, but 120V shocks for many are quite tolerable in the sense of it being enough to warn you without producing damage (or as William was pointing out, the difference between 'shock' and 'surprise'). IME, I can't say the same thing about 240. 240 is double 120, by Ohm's law and impedance, lethal currents are more 'likely' or easily produced by the higher voltage. Yes, one always has to be careful around both levels for both shock concern and because there is a fair mount of energy behind both (slipped tools producing big sparks and damage). I'm not well acquainted with the UK/Euro rules history, but I'll put forth that the UK/Euro 110/55 building-site requirements are evidence of the point. It's nice that it actually lowers the V-to-ground to such a low level, but I expect it exists because the 240V-to-ground is considered unsafe, while in NA we get by safely enough with the 120V-to-ground on building sites. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 13:10:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 19:10:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 10:15:13 am Message-ID: > > Many power tools sold in the US have no 3rd wire for grounding at > all, instead, a "double insulated" method of construction is used. Samve over here. I guess it's safer than having a tool that should be earthed if the earth wire has fallen off, but I am not sure I trust double insulation as much as an earthed metal device. > What's curious is that such tools often employ the "large blade = > neutra, small blade = line" polarized plugs. All our plugs are polarised, and AFAIK all mains leads have different colours of insulation on the live and neutral wires whether it matters or not. I wonder if the polarisated plugs on some power tools are due to the fct that they only have single pole mains swtiches (wbich should be wired in the live wire, of coruse [1]). I prefer doubel-pole switches, but that's anothe rant... [1] I once saw an SMPSU unit -- I think for a copy of the Apple ][ (but certainly not a genuine Apple one)-- which was wired witha fuse in one wire and a single pole switch in the other. OUCH! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 5 14:42:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 20:42:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 11:06:02 am Message-ID: > On electronic (i.e. personal computer) gear, I wonder if the role of > the ever-present ground wire isn't more for RF noise than actual > safety protection. Possibly. Althoguh a lot of computer equipment is metal-cased and certainly wouldn't meet the requirements for double insulation. One consern would be the mains filter. With no ground wire the casing would flaot at half mains voltage due to a capacitive voltage divider formed from the capacitors from the power-carrying wires to the case. Yes, the source impedance would be quite high, but enough to give you a tingle. Worse than that, if you connect the machine ta an earthed device and if the logic ground wire is defective you are most likely to end up zapping driver and receiver ICs. This was, I am told, a problem with some Acorn Econet installations... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 15:11:17 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:11:17 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: , <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2011 at 14:10, William Donzelli wrote: > > That's always bothered me a bit. ?I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a > > drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil > > laminations. ?While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. > > Get a cordless. Ever have to pre-drill and drive 500 4" deck screws with a cordless? It can be done, but you'd better have a pile of charged batteries. Battery-powered circular saws are also a joke--I've yet to see one that could hold its own against my worm-drive Skilsaw. I have several cordless drills and drivers, including hammer drills and impact wrenches. They're okay for small jobs, but don't hold up under heavy use. (Much like trying to mow the meadow in front of my house with a cordless lawn mower...) I've also popped the power FETs in a couple of cordless drills after heavy use. They probably gave out because their cooling mostly consists of having a small heatsink in a confined space--but stupid design is a completely different topic. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 15:13:11 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 13:13:11 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 11:06:02 am, Message-ID: <4D4D4CE7.6534.EACCF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2011 at 20:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Possibly. Althoguh a lot of computer equipment is metal-cased and > certainly wouldn't meet the requirements for double insulation. One > consern would be the mains filter. Those metal-cased line filters are becoming increasingly rare on power supplies. Progress, I guess. --Chuck From shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 15:26:39 2011 From: shawn.t.rutledge at gmail.com (Shawn Rutledge) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 14:26:39 -0700 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260733084635 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 5 15:49:34 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 13:49:34 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D4D2331.22390.47E064@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D4D967A.4010608@dunnington.plus.com> <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 5, at 11:06 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Feb 2011 at 18:27, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> Same here (most are DI) but it doesn't stop them getting wet, or stop >> cables getting frayed. > > That's always bothered me a bit. I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a > drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil > laminations. While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. Remember old (pre ~1970) power drills? : non-polarised plug, ungrounded, and *aluminum* housing and handle. Some might think some of the safety rules these days are overkill, but when you look at the way a lot of old stuff was built you see the other side. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 16:08:44 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 17:08:44 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4D2F1A.6684.766728@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Ever have to pre-drill and drive 500 4" deck screws with a cordless? > It can be done, but you'd better have a pile of charged batteries. Two batteries and a good quality tool will do just fine. > Battery-powered circular saws are also a joke--I've yet to see one > that could hold its own against my worm-drive Skilsaw. Get a modern one. Cordless tools have changed a lot in the past ten years. Technology marches on. -- Will, who this weekend will be drill and screwing lots of things with a modern Hilti. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 16:26:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 14:26:04 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: , <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D4D5DFC.3373.12D88A0@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2011 at 17:08, William Donzelli wrote: > > Battery-powered circular saws are also a joke--I've yet to see one > > that could hold its own against my worm-drive Skilsaw. > > Get a modern one. I don't believe it. If that were the case, the contractors around here would be gobbling them up like hotcakes and nobody would own a corded saw or drill. Got any figures for how much 4x fir a modern cordless circular saw will rip (not crosscut) on a charge? I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but if a 7" cordless saw can cut a shift's worth of framing lumber on a single charge, I'll seriously consider buying one. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 16:37:40 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 17:37:40 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D5DFC.3373.12D88A0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4D5DFC.3373.12D88A0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm prepared to be proved wrong, but if a 7" cordless saw can cut a > shift's worth of framing lumber on a single charge, I'll seriously > consider buying one. Who expects any of those tools to work all day on a single charge? Go to any construction site, and you will find a bank of chargers for all the tools. Whether it is once a day or twenty times a day, the guys will simply walk over and swap out the exhausted batteries. Yes, there are still applications for corded tools on the site (big ass hammer drills, serious saws, conduit benders, etc..), but these days 95 percent of the hand work can be done nicely with cordless tools. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 5 17:05:20 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:05:20 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <92f1936aba45a1c068a650c5c826452c@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 5, at 7:27 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V >> is=20= >> >> the maximum potential relative to ground: >> NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak >> Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak > > That's one difference. The other difference is that in the States you > have a centre-tap available. ? The centre-tap is there as an outcome of the design, not innate intent. From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 5 17:32:03 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 18:32:03 -0500 Subject: Mac's and 400K diskettes In-Reply-To: <92f1936aba45a1c068a650c5c826452c@cs.ubc.ca> References: <92f1936aba45a1c068a650c5c826452c@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4D4DDDF3.5030503@atarimuseum.com> Hi, I'm working on an archive project and for the past 2 days I've gotten a Powermac 5260/100 back to life, gotten it hooked up to my network via its CS Slot Ethernet card (make not, the cable must have ALL pins connected, not just 1,2 & 3,6 - otherwise the cable isn't recognized as an active link by the Apple CS card... Got Appletalk protocol and Appleshare setup on my Win 2K3 server, now I'm connected, all is well in the universe... Oh, Mac has OS 8.1 installed... So I pop in a bunch of Corvus Mac diskettes from 84-85 so I'm assuming they are 400K ... no good, Mac won't read them, has no prob reading 800K diskettes, but won't read any of the Corvus disks... I am hoping the disks aren't bad (really hoping since they are next to impossible to find/replace) So, question is.... Does anyone know if Powermac's will read older 400K mac diskettes??? curt From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 5 17:43:38 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:43:38 -0800 Subject: Mac's and 400K diskettes In-Reply-To: <4D4DDDF3.5030503@atarimuseum.com> References: <92f1936aba45a1c068a650c5c826452c@cs.ubc.ca> <4D4DDDF3.5030503@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D4DE0AA.8000702@bitsavers.org> On 2/5/11 3:32 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Does anyone know if Powermac's will read older 400K mac diskettes??? > You can image them, but machines after OS 8 can't read the earlier MFS disk format. http://guides.macrumors.com/Mac_OS_%28Classic%29 Mac OS 8 * This was the last system to support reading from the MFS. Creating MFS disks had been dropped in System 3, when MFS was replaced with HFS. There is also a problem where early Mac apps get confused with aliases. Forget when that occured, probably when aliases were added. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 5 17:44:54 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 23:44:54 +0000 Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: References: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4DE0F6.1070301@philpem.me.uk> On 05/02/11 14:22, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does the scripting language talk to a C/C++ library at the low level, or > do you twiddle bits directly? libdiscferret (the C API) relies on bit-twiddling. The Lua scripts are used by the application software (specifically: discferret-read-disc) to handle conversion between a drive 'name' (e.g. 'pc35a-80t') and the lines which need to be made active in order to select the drive (e.g. MOTEN, DS0, ...) and pick the correct head (SIDESEL, DS1, DS2, DS3 or whatever the assignment is). The pindefs generally vary depending on how the drive has been connected. The Winchester adapter board wires HEAD_2^3 to DS3, for instance. This is why there's a script to handle drive selection: I don't want to end up recompiling loads of C code just to change a pindef! > Can you elaborate just a wee bit on how the > script talks to hardware? The script doesn't talk to hardware directly. Libdiscferret provides the hardware interface layer, in the form of bit-twiddling (actually register POKEs and PEEKs). The Lua script takes a parameter set from the application (current head, track and sector, etc.) and converts these into a pin state. The disc script tells the application what needs to be done to read the disc. That is: - Acquisition mode -- index-locked, MFM-locked, hard-sector mark, ... - Min/max track number - Min/max head number - Disc class (must match the drive's Disc Class; mainly used to stop Winchester profiles from being used with 80tk floppy drives). Does this make it any clearer? Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Feb 5 17:47:11 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:47:11 -0800 Subject: Mac's and 400K diskettes In-Reply-To: <4D4DDDF3.5030503@atarimuseum.com> References: <92f1936aba45a1c068a650c5c826452c@cs.ubc.ca> <4D4DDDF3.5030503@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D4DE17F.4010004@mail.msu.edu> On 2/5/2011 3:32 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > I'm working on an archive project and for the past 2 days I've gotten > a Powermac 5260/100 back to life, gotten it hooked up to my network > via its CS Slot Ethernet card (make not, the cable must have ALL pins > connected, not just 1,2 & 3,6 - otherwise the cable isn't recognized > as an active link by the Apple CS card... > > Got Appletalk protocol and Appleshare setup on my Win 2K3 server, now > I'm connected, all is well in the universe... > > Oh, Mac has OS 8.1 installed... > > So I pop in a bunch of Corvus Mac diskettes from 84-85 so I'm assuming > they are 400K ... no good, Mac won't read them, has no prob reading > 800K diskettes, but won't read any of the Corvus disks... I am > hoping the disks aren't bad (really hoping since they are next to > impossible to find/replace) > > So, question is.... > > Does anyone know if Powermac's will read older 400K mac diskettes??? > > curt What software are you using to read them? I would not expect that using the Finder to read these floppies would be successful, since they're going to use a pre-HFS filesystem that 8.1 is probably not going to support. I know I used a PowerMac 6100/66 a long time ago to *write* out 400K Lisa floppies, using "Disk Dup+" and "Disk Copy" but I don't recall using that same machine to read 400K floppies. One would hope that a system that can write 400K disks could also read them back, though... Josh From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Feb 5 17:49:36 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 15:49:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Mac's and 400K diskettes In-Reply-To: <4D4DDDF3.5030503@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 2/5/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Does anyone know if Powermac's will read older 400K mac > diskettes??? The PowerMac will. System 8.1 will not. They dropped support for 400K disks in System 7.6. So, you'll need to have 7.5 or older installed to read data from them. IIRC, DiskCopy will still make images of the 400K disks, even though the OS won't read them. -Ian From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Feb 5 18:36:23 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 19:36:23 -0500 Subject: Mac's and 400K diskettes References: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sounds like I'll need to install 7.5 and see what happens... Thanks everyone for the quick answers Curt -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Mr Ian Primus Sent: Sat 2/5/2011 6:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Mac's and 400K diskettes --- On Sat, 2/5/11, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Does anyone know if Powermac's will read older 400K mac > diskettes??? The PowerMac will. System 8.1 will not. They dropped support for 400K disks in System 7.6. So, you'll need to have 7.5 or older installed to read data from them. IIRC, DiskCopy will still make images of the 400K disks, even though the OS won't read them. -Ian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Feb 5 19:22:44 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:22:44 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: <4CA4BF8B9BD64A0C9D98F9514A020F62@massey.ac.nz> Thanks for that explanation Tony. The switch is part mechanical and part light sensor. A plastic pin is pushed down when the disk is first inserted (incidently, this pin is at exactly the same location as the hole in a 3.5 inch HD disk which is why the Lisa doesn't acknowledge those kinds of drives). This pin is joined at right angles to a plastic block which cuts off a light beam thereby activating the switch. I've traced the wires through from the switch to the circuit board. There are two wires carrying about 4 - 4.3 volts when the switch is off (i.e. no disk inserted). Both drop to zero when the switch is activated regardless whether the platter turns or not. I conclude from this that the switch itself is ok. I tried manually moving the platter to different starting positions before activating the switch but whether the motor fired or not seemed random. It is interesting that 2 or my 3 Lisa floppy drives have this symptom. Some fault on the circuit board for sure. My plan at this stage is to seek another drive amongst my contacts locally rather than attempt a repair. I'm seriously thinking about that Widget/Profile emulator although I think I'll need to sell some of what I've got to justifiy it to the other half. Even so, with the widget emulator, the one good floppy drive and Lisa 2/10 at least I'll have one machine that runs the Lisa Office suite and looks (if not sounds) like it did in the day. That's my aim. Getting another working drive means I could sell the other Lisa 2 as a fully working unit (albeit without the Profile drive), which means I might be able to get more for it. I probably don't need two working Lisas. These things take up a lot of room! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 4:46 AM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > [Spindle motor problems] > >> I'm sure the problem is not with the light beam detection as the stepper >> always moves. Somewhere between the switch and the motor itself the >> signal >> seems to get lost, or at least isn't strong enough to start the flywheel >> off. It interesting that the problem has lessened with use. I thought >> maybe the flywheel was a bit sticky but it turns very freely. I've oiled >> the spindle also. > > These motors are so-called 'electornically commutated'. Rather than > having a mechncial commutator and brushgear like the mtoros you see in > many books, they have (normally) 3 sets of windigns that are > electronically controleld and sequenced in the right order nad at the > right freqency to get the motor to turn. The position of the > rotor/flywheel is detected by hall effect devies (magnetic sensors) on > the PCB. > > If one hall-effect sensor or the drive to one set of windings is faulty, > then the motor may well stop in a place where it can'r restart (in that > there will be no drive to any winding when you try to start it). Of course > once the motor has got going, the intertial of the flywheel keeps it > going past the 'bad bit'. > > The motor is probsbly cvntorlled by a semi-custom IC. If you are lucky it > will only be semi-cucstom, certainly in some of the floppy drives I've > repaired, I've mamanged to get the motor cotnrol ICs as spare parts. > Apparently they were used in VCRs for motor control too [1]. > > You migth try entering the numbers of an ICs near the motor widings and > hall effect devices into datasheetarchive or similar to see if you can > get data sheets,. If you find a 'burshless motor control IC' or simialr, > it's a fair bet you've found th espindle motor driver chip. Then you can > use a 'scope to see if it's getting inputs from the hall-eddect sensors > and driving the coils properly. > > [1] Not quite the same thing, but the motor speed control ICs in my Canon > CX printer have a pin labelled '33/45' in the data sheet. They were > obviosuly designed for use in record player turntables... > > -tony > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Feb 5 19:40:01 2011 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 17:40:01 -0800 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: References: <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Feb 5, 11 12:50:30 pm, Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > > > Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would an absolutely 0 > > ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a shorted cap for the reason I > > suggest above? > > There's no simple way, it's easier just ot desolder at least one end and > test them effectively out-of-circuit. > > The fact that you've found something that's shorted that shouldn't be is > a clue I think. What does that capacitor connect to (it may be easier to > trace this o nthe good PCB where the 2 ends don't test as being shorted > together). > > -tony Hi With the correct equipment, the method I spoke of works quite well. I've never failed to locate the short and within 5 minutes. No damage to the board or components that could occur by unsoldering parts until the shorted one is found. Dwight From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 5 20:11:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 02:11:59 +0000 Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... Message-ID: <4D4E036F.1010800@philpem.me.uk> Here's one for the PC gurus (I know there are a few of you here!) I've got the 386 motherboard on the bench. It's got four 1MB 32pin SIMMs installed (it can take eight), no graphics card and my POST code display card (which arrived in the post this morning). I've set the jumpers per the manual: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/I/INFORMTECH-INTERNATIONAL-INC-486-IT-AM33-40-DLC.html The CPU on this thing is an AMD Am386DX-40. The math-coprocessor (Intel 80387DX-33) has been pulled for now. BIOS is an AMI (American Megatrends) BIOS, label on the chip says Copyright 1992. This is the BIOS which has the atrocious magenta-and-cyan setup screen. The POST card is reporting stable power, RESET inactive, and a valid I/O clock. After powering up, I get the following sequence of POST codes cur prev -- -- holds for a second (or so) 02 01 holds for ~15 seconds 06 05 holds for a second 0d 0c holds for a few minutes 00 0d holds forever The POST card has two displays: CUR and PREV, for Current and Previous code. CUR is the code most recently written to the debug port, PREV is the one before that. Now, according to http://www.postcodemaster.com/AMI91.shtml , 0D is "CMOS Shutdown Register Test to be Done Next", and 00 is "Going to Give Control to INT 19H Boot Loader". Does anyone have any clue what these error codes actually mean? Complete guess here, but it looks like the BIOS is having trouble talking to the CMOS RAM chip. Going by the Dallas datasheet, the most likely candidate is that it's writing 01X (i.e. 0,1,something) to the enable bits in CR1, then reading it back to make sure the control register was set up correctly. The readback failed (repeatedly), so it got stuck in a loop. Obviously without a disassembly of the BIOS, it's pretty hard to say for definite that this is the problem... but does what I'm saying sound at least reasonably plausible? I'm thinking my next step should be to plug a couple of Harwin pin headers into the turned-pin socket and probe it with the logic analyser... Does anyone have any other ideas? -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sat Feb 5 10:48:25 2011 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 16:48:25 -0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C66AA.6030700@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" atFeb 4, 11 08:50:50 pm Message-ID: _____ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 05 February 2011 15:12 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) > > On 04/02/2011 19:43, Tony Duell wrote: > I am suprse the bayonet lampholder is still permitted, given that it is > no way touvhproof. . I am not that surprised given that at some time (in the past 20 years?) ES lampholders appear to have become legal in the UK (I'm sure they never used to be) and they have a large _easily_touched_ metal part that could randomly be connected to live or neutral (I suspect that if Tony found himself having to install one he would make sure that the screw part went to neutral - I'm also sure that most installers don't bother) Andy From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 12:31:37 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 13:31:37 -0500 Subject: Need RL02 Controller for PDP-11/44 Restoration Message-ID: > So I'm *almost* sure that you can run one without the OCP. Mind you, it > might have been an RA71 or RA72 rather than an RA70. > > Right now I cannot put my finger on a suitable manual ... > > There are, I'm sure, some jumpers or switches that set the unit number. There is a DIP switch on the back next to the Fault and Ready LEDs that is labeled Unit Number Select. Next to the DIP switch is a pushbutton labeled Unit Number Accept. I have all of the DIP switches off, I suspect for Unit Number 0. I tried pushing the Unit Number Select push button both after the drive was powered up and while it was being powered up. It does not spinup. > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org -- Michael Thompson From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sat Feb 5 15:29:00 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 21:29:00 +0000 (WET) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 Message-ID: <01NXHCCRGYTU0000UN@beyondthepale.ie> > >> On electronic (i.e. personal computer) gear, I wonder if the role of >> the ever-present ground wire isn't more for RF noise than actual >> safety protection. > >Possibly. Althoguh a lot of computer equipment is metal-cased and >certainly wouldn't meet the requirements for double insulation. One >consern would be the mains filter. With no ground wire the casing would >flaot at half mains voltage due to a capacitive voltage divider formed >from the capacitors from the power-carrying wires to the case. Yes, the >source impedance would be quite high, but enough to give you a tingle. >Worse than that, if you connect the machine ta an earthed device and if >the logic ground wire is defective you are most likely to end up zapping >driver and receiver ICs. This was, I am told, a problem with some Acorn >Econet installations... > It's happened to me :-( I have a Vaxstation 3100 which was equipped with an SPX graphics adapter which was plugged into a very nice VR297 monitor (Sony Trinitron). I plugged out the monitor cable from the back of the Vaxstation for some reason. When I plugged it back in I felt a zap. On investigating, the earth pin in the IEC plug going into the monitor didn't seem to be making proper contact for some reason. The monitor didn't mind a bit but one of the primary colour outputs from the SPX adapter went away (red I think). I traced the connections on the graphics card and found the RGB outputs came directly out of a large, probably expensive, difficult to replace and rare looking BT459 RAMDAC :-( That was the only serious problem I ever had with them but I never liked IEC plugs and sockets much. Even when they are correctly mated, they often seem loose. I suppose on the plus side, they are more likely to pull free than cause damage when I trip over a mains lead... Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonas at otter.se Sat Feb 5 17:22:19 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 00:22:19 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <002201cbc58b$891aebc0$9b50c340$@otter.se> > > It's in the second version of the book that I have. The book also > includes the 5-10, 5-20, 3-3, several preamplifers and tape > recording/playback amplifiers. It doesn't include an FM tuner design. The > older book ('High Quality Sound Reproduction') includes the 5-10, 5-20, > their preamps and an FM tuner. The latter was removed from the later book > because apparently few home constructors could align it properly. > > -tony > That's the one I have. Published 1959. Seven-watt DC/AC Amplifier, pages 59-66, UF86, 2xUCL82, UY85. I had no idea there was another version with an FM tuner in. I wonder how I could get hold of one? Jonas From jonas at otter.se Sat Feb 5 17:40:32 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 00:40:32 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <002401cbc58e$146ce5a0$3d46b0e0$@otter.se> > No, it;s an Asko, from the time before they were taken over. > That would be Finnish then IIRC. Cylinda is Asko Cylinda since a number of years. We used to pass the Cylinda factory every time we went to see my ex-parents-in-law. It's in a little village called Jung, in the South-west of Sweden. Cylinda used to be known for being particularly high quality since the washer drums were made of stainless steel where everyone else used mild steel. Asko Cylinda was bought by Gorenje of Slovenia last year. > > On the subject of power sockets in bathrooms, in Sweden sockets may be > > fitted in bathrooms provided they are either earthed and protected by a > > Ground Fault Interrupter (there is probably a requirement that the GFI > > be located outside the bathroom), or have an isolating step-down > > transfomer internally, 220/110 and about 20 VA or so. Houses built after > > The latter sounds like hte 'shaver sockets' we get in the UK. As I > mentioned, I bought a few in a pound shop and extractd the transformers > form them -- 110-0-110V at 20VA will power some small valve projects and > I've yet to find any other new HT transformers for a pound each :-) > They are meant for shavers and usually marked as such. The advantage of having earthed sockets nowadays is of course that you can run hair dryers in the bathroom (or even use the bathroom as a darkroom, which is presumably not what those who wrote the rules had in mind). > > 1994 may not have non-earthed sockets anywhere. > > I have no idea what the regualtions ontaht are over here. Virtually every > new installation (since about 1948) uses the 'ring main' with 3 pin > (earthed) sockets and plugs with intenral cartridge fuses. > > I think the only non-earthed sockets you would find now are isolated > shaver sockets. > I have always thought that the UK system was much more sensible. Not only are all plugs and sockets earthed, fused and switched, but they are also polarised so it is impossible to switch live and neutral (provided the electrician who installed them knew what he was doing). The Swedish plugs sockets are the same as the German ones, which are symmetrical and neither switched nor fused. > > > > My bathroom has a small laundry section which I am intending to use as a > > darkroom. My flat is from 1963 so there is no socket in there, I have > > bought a portable GFI and intend to run an earthed extension lead from > > the kitchen via the GFI into the bathroom whenever I want to use it as a > > darkroom. Probably illegal but it should protect me (I hope...). > > I would have to check the rgualtions, but in a darkroom you are working > in poor light with electricla stuff and water. No way would I want to do > without n RCD. > Precisely why i bought the RCD/GFI. I know for a fact I am going to die but I don't intend to bring it about by electrocution in the bathroom. And of course the RCD goes on the end of the lead outside the bathroom. I would want one even in a dedicated darkroom. Jonas From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Feb 5 20:42:58 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 21:42:58 -0500 Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... References: <4D4E036F.1010800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: What did it do when you had a video card and keyboard installed? Was there a beep code? The Dallas chip is probably dead (battery), have you tried reworking it with a coin cell? http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/jpg/ds1287rw.gif ----- Original Message ----- From: "Philip Pemberton" To: "cctalk" Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 9:11 PM Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... > Here's one for the PC gurus (I know there are a few of you here!) > > I've got the 386 motherboard on the bench. It's got four 1MB 32pin SIMMs > installed (it can take eight), no graphics card and my POST code display > card (which arrived in the post this morning). I've set the jumpers per > the manual: > > http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/motherboards/I/INFORMTECH-INTERNATIONAL-INC-486-IT-AM33-40-DLC.html > > The CPU on this thing is an AMD Am386DX-40. The math-coprocessor (Intel > 80387DX-33) has been pulled for now. BIOS is an AMI (American Megatrends) > BIOS, label on the chip says Copyright 1992. This is the BIOS which has > the atrocious magenta-and-cyan setup screen. > > The POST card is reporting stable power, RESET inactive, and a valid I/O > clock. After powering up, I get the following sequence of POST codes > > cur prev > -- -- holds for a second (or so) > 02 01 holds for ~15 seconds > 06 05 holds for a second > 0d 0c holds for a few minutes > 00 0d holds forever > > The POST card has two displays: CUR and PREV, for Current and Previous > code. CUR is the code most recently written to the debug port, PREV is the > one before that. > > Now, according to http://www.postcodemaster.com/AMI91.shtml , 0D is "CMOS > Shutdown Register Test to be Done Next", and 00 is "Going to Give Control > to INT 19H Boot Loader". > > Does anyone have any clue what these error codes actually mean? Complete > guess here, but it looks like the BIOS is having trouble talking to the > CMOS RAM chip. Going by the Dallas datasheet, the most likely candidate is > that it's writing 01X (i.e. 0,1,something) to the enable bits in CR1, then > reading it back to make sure the control register was set up correctly. > The readback failed (repeatedly), so it got stuck in a loop. > > Obviously without a disassembly of the BIOS, it's pretty hard to say for > definite that this is the problem... but does what I'm saying sound at > least reasonably plausible? > > I'm thinking my next step should be to plug a couple of Harwin pin headers > into the turned-pin socket and probe it with the logic analyser... > > Does anyone have any other ideas? > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 5 21:01:18 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 03:01:18 +0000 Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... In-Reply-To: References: <4D4E036F.1010800@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4E0EFE.9030808@philpem.me.uk> On 06/02/11 02:42, Teo Zenios wrote: > What did it do when you had a video card and keyboard installed? Was > there a beep code? Black screen, no beeps. I get the same POST code sequence with the VGA card in as I do without it. > The Dallas chip is probably dead (battery), have you tried reworking it > with a coin cell? Not yet -- the chip isn't that old, I'd have thought it would still be good... Also, the board packed in after I cleared some corrosion (from an old, leaky nicad battery) from the PCB and replaced the old dual-wipe RTC chip socket with an Augat turned-pin socket. Now the board is DOA... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 5 21:08:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 19:08:19 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C66AA.6030700@dunnington.plus.com>, , Message-ID: <4D4DA023.13050.22FEF04@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2011 at 16:48, Andy Holt wrote: > I am not that surprised given that at some time (in the past 20 > years?) ES lampholders appear to have become legal in the UK (I'm sure > they never used to be) and they have a large _easily_touched_ metal > part that could randomly be connected to live or neutral (I suspect > that if Tony found himself having to install one he would make sure > that the screw part went to neutral - I'm also sure that most > installers don't bother) I liked the way the bayonet lamp sockets were used in British comedy skits, with the bulb popping out. In the US, there are still plenty of table lamps with non-polarized plugs wandering around. I just checked the table lamp by my bedise and it's not polarized--and it has exposed metal parts. In fact, the ES socket came before the US 2-blade receptacle. Residential electrical service initially was intended for lighting only, so early appliances were screwed into lamp sockets. I used to have one of the old connectors in my hellbox--two wires coming out of an Edison screw plug. I know I've got a couple of bakelite adapters that are inserted between a lamp and the socket and provide two ungrounded receptacles, along with a pull-chain type of on-off control for the lamp. I don't know if they are still sold. My house was constructed in 1980 and the lighting circuits (15A) are separate from those of the wall receptacles (20A). Twenty years earlier that was not the practice in residential construction. --Chuck From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 22:22:36 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 23:22:36 -0500 (EST) Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: <4D4DE0F6.1070301@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> <4D4DE0F6.1070301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Can you elaborate just a wee bit on how the >> script talks to hardware? > > The script doesn't talk to hardware directly. Libdiscferret provides the > hardware interface layer, in the form of bit-twiddling (actually register > POKEs and PEEKs). The Lua script takes a parameter set from the application > (current head, track and sector, etc.) and converts these into a pin state. I presume Lua has a C/C++ API to create the necessary bindings, though, right? -- From leaknoil at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 22:32:27 2011 From: leaknoil at gmail.com (leaknoil) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:32:27 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4E245B.60508@gmail.com> I have one of those collecting dust. Just be warned they use the infamous Keytronic foam pads in the keyboard and most keys probably don't work anymore. They do run cp/m 68k but, most of the usual cp/m stuff isn't actually installed. Just the protocol diagnostics stuff and a few other things. On 2/5/2011 1:26 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260733084635 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Feb 5 22:39:54 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:39:54 -0800 Subject: Free (in Seattle): HP 7550A Plotter Message-ID: <4D4E261A.6060802@mail.msu.edu> This is an 8-pen 8.5"x11" autofeed plotter with Serial and HP-IB interfaces. It's in good shape, and seems to be almost working, but something's gone awry with the autofeed mechanism -- it's not picking up paper from the tray. Some of the pens still have wet ink in them :). A friend of mine was tossing this out and I couldn't let that happen, but since I already *have* a working 7550A I probably don't need another. Anyone interested? This is in Seattle, drop me a line... - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Feb 5 22:52:29 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:52:29 -0800 Subject: HP 7240A plotter paper substitute? Message-ID: <4D4E290D.1030807@mail.msu.edu> I seem to have a plotter-based theme going here today... Snagged an HP 7240A (this is the RS-232 version of the 7245A) plotter today, it's in working condition. A really cool design -- a combination plotter/printer using a thermal print head. My understanding is that the special tractor-feed thermal paper for this thing is basically impossible to find. Anyone out there found a reasonable substitute? Mine came with maybe 1/4 of a roll left in it, and I guess after that's gone I'll probably never get to use it again :). Thanks, Josh From evan at snarc.net Sat Feb 5 22:57:39 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 23:57:39 -0500 Subject: Upcoming additions to MARCH Computer Museum collection Message-ID: <4D4E2A43.7050707@snarc.net> 1. DEC PDP-8e 2. IBM 1130 Come see 'em at VCF East 7.0, May 14-15, InfoAge Science Center, Wall, NJ. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Feb 5 22:58:23 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 23:58:23 -0500 Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: References: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> <4D4DE0F6.1070301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4E2A6F.8070903@neurotica.com> On 2/5/11 11:22 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: >>> Can you elaborate just a wee bit on how the >>> script talks to hardware? >> >> The script doesn't talk to hardware directly. Libdiscferret provides >> the hardware interface layer, in the form of bit-twiddling (actually >> register POKEs and PEEKs). The Lua script takes a parameter set from >> the application (current head, track and sector, etc.) and converts >> these into a pin state. > > I presume Lua has a C/C++ API to create the necessary bindings, though, > right? Lua has a nice C API, I use it a lot at work. Driving the Lua interpreter from C and collecting variable data back to C is particularly easy. (forgive me for jumping in, but I just worked in this a few days ago) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Feb 5 23:38:06 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 21:38:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: <4D4E2A6F.8070903@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 5, 11 11:58:23 pm" Message-ID: <201102060538.p165c6ll011348@floodgap.com> > > I presume Lua has a C/C++ API to create the necessary bindings, though, > > right? > > Lua has a nice C API, I use it a lot at work. Driving the Lua > interpreter from C and collecting variable data back to C is > particularly easy. (forgive me for jumping in, but I just worked in > this a few days ago) I second Lua. It is extremely easy to embed and a number of game engines exploit it as a scripting language. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- rm -rf /bin/laden ---------------------------------------------------------- From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 6 00:47:11 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 01:47:11 -0500 Subject: Corvus Mac Disks... In-Reply-To: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D4E43EF.5010007@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Just wanted to thank everyone again for the assistance. I installed System 7.5.3 and viola! I was able to read the diskettes (most).... One diskette (Corvus User Client) isn't reading for some reason... I tried Norton Disk Doctor 3.5 and it read the drive label and saw it as "Corvus User Client" but said it didn't support repair/verify of non-HFS disks so I got a little closer, but not close enough... So I'll have to find a disk repair tool that works with older 400k diskettes so I can run a repair/fix on it and get it fully readable. Well, the good news is that 4 of the 5 disks were readable, I moved them over to my server via Appleshare and just posted up a quick page (I'll clean up the disk images later on, but just posted up the scans of the disks and then linked them to .ZIP images of the contents of each diskette (no apple imaging, straight files copy and then zipped up the directories I had made) http://www.corvusmuseum.com/software/mac/ If anyone has any Corvus diskettes and wants to contribute to the archive project, please email me off-list, thanks! Curt From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 00:55:31 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 00:55:31 -0600 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260733084635 While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with a 3.5" floppy before. Who can name any others? From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Feb 6 01:07:45 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 23:07:45 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4E48C1.7060803@mail.msu.edu> On 2/5/2011 10:55 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Shawn Rutledge > wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260733084635 > While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with > a 3.5" floppy before. > > Who can name any others? > I have a Sony SMC-70G for which I have CP/M on a 3.5" disk. (I believe this machine was the -first- to use Sony's newly invented 3.5" disk/drive...) - Josh From lance.w.lyon at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 01:53:06 2011 From: lance.w.lyon at gmail.com (Lance Lyon) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 18:53:06 +1100 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4d4e5363.c8122a0a.3775.6747@mx.google.com> Commodore 128 Cheers, Lance -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T Sent: Sunday, 6 February 2011 5:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Shawn Rutledge wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260733084635 While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with a 3.5" floppy before. Who can name any others? From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 6 02:19:57 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 03:19:57 -0500 Subject: Mac 400K issue solved! Message-ID: <4D4E59AD.2050406@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Okay, found a treasure trove of files buried deep on Apple's website: http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/ Found Diskcopy 4.2 from 1991... I installed it, it took 3 passes to read in the Corvus User Disk, but finally I got a good copy and then put in a fresh diskette, make the copy and it promptly mounting on the Mac desktop and I was able to open it and all of the files were right there, so that worked like a charm. So to review: Powermac 5260/100 Mac OS 7.5.3 Diskcopy 4.2 This all worked well in finally reading the older 84-85 Mac MFS diskettes... So I just updated the Macintosh Archive section with the added Mac User Client for Corvus Omninet networks (this will not work with Appletalk or Ethernet, you need a special Corvus Interface Adapter that plugs into the Localtalk Port and then to Corvus Omninet cabling...) http://www.corvusmuseum.com/software/mac/ Curt From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 6 02:25:56 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 21:25:56 +1300 Subject: Mac 400K issue solved! References: <4D4E59AD.2050406@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <0451A742EA12486E823431315BC91C76@massey.ac.nz> I used diskcopy 4.2 to copy my Lisa 400k disk images from my Mac Classic 2 to a 400k disk (in an external 800k drive). Worked like a charm! Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 9:19 PM Subject: Mac 400K issue solved! > Hi, > > Okay, found a treasure trove of files buried deep on Apple's website: > > http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/ > > Found Diskcopy 4.2 from 1991... I installed it, it took 3 passes to > read in the Corvus User Disk, but finally I got a good copy and then put > in a fresh diskette, make the copy and it promptly mounting on the Mac > desktop and I was able to open it and all of the files were right there, > so that worked like a charm. > > So to review: > > Powermac 5260/100 > Mac OS 7.5.3 > Diskcopy 4.2 > > This all worked well in finally reading the older 84-85 Mac MFS > diskettes... > > So I just updated the Macintosh Archive section with the added Mac User > Client for Corvus Omninet networks (this will not work with Appletalk or > Ethernet, you need a special Corvus Interface Adapter that plugs into the > Localtalk Port and then to Corvus Omninet cabling...) > > http://www.corvusmuseum.com/software/mac/ > > > Curt > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 6 03:04:58 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 09:04:58 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: References: <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> from "Rob Jarratt" at Feb 5, 11 12:50:30 pm, Message-ID: <03b101cbc5dc$fe6d15f0$fb4741d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: 06 February 2011 01:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working > > > > > > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > ---snip--- > > > > > Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would an > > > absolutely 0 ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a shorted cap > > > for the reason I suggest above? > > > > There's no simple way, it's easier just ot desolder at least one end > > and test them effectively out-of-circuit. > > > > The fact that you've found something that's shorted that shouldn't be > > is a clue I think. What does that capacitor connect to (it may be > > easier to trace this o nthe good PCB where the 2 ends don't test as > > being shorted together). > > > > -tony > > Hi > With the correct equipment, the method I spoke of works quite well. I've > never failed to locate the short and within > 5 minutes. No damage to the board or components that could occur by > unsoldering parts until the shorted one is found. > Dwight > = I have to say I didn't really understand the described method . Unfortunately I don't have a bench power supply of any description and can't really justify the cost at the moment, so I will just have to go round de-soldering components until I find the bad one. Still, it would be useful to understand the method. Would you be able to elaborate? Regards Rob From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Feb 6 03:24:47 2011 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 09:24:47 +0000 Subject: VT330 Flyback Transformer Repair - advice please In-Reply-To: References: <4D49EC3E.90504@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D4E68DF.6050203@wickensonline.co.uk> On 03/02/11 00:04, Paul Anderson wrote: > Hi Mark, > > If you want to chip chase, I understand, but I can send you a complete board > for $25 plus postage. I will need a few days to find them. Also, the VT330 > and VT330+ use different boards if I recall correctly. Hi Paul, It would be really useful to have a spare board (or a working one if the flyback replacement doesn't work), thanks for the offer. I'm in the UK, would it be possible to let me know how much a board would be including shipping? I haven't seen anything on the terminal to suggest it is a VT330+, what would be the best way of determining the right board - the DEC part number on the board itself? Regards, Mark. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Feb 6 06:56:24 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:56:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Feb 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > All our plugs are polarised, and AFAIK all mains leads have different OTOH none of our plugs are polarized. The most insane plug/socket construction is the UK one, a real imposition. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Feb 6 07:10:45 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:10:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: Corvus Mac Disks... In-Reply-To: <4D4E43EF.5010007@atarimuseum.com> References: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D4E43EF.5010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > 7.5.3 and viola! I was able to read the diskettes (most).... One Why not guitar or piano? ;-) Christian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 09:49:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:49:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: from "Andy Holt" at Feb 5, 11 04:48:25 pm Message-ID: > I am not that surprised given that at some time (in the past 20 years?) ES > lampholders appear to have become legal in the UK (I'm sure they never used Weren't they? I am pretty sure I've seen reference to them in quite old (1950s) electrical engineering books over here. Maybe not used on domestic installations, thohhg > to be) and they have a large _easily_touched_ metal part that could randomly > be connected to live or neutral (I suspect that if Tony found himself having > to install one he would make sure that the screw part went to neutral - I'm Yes I would. At least one version of the wiring regualtions mentioned this (I can't remeber if it's mandatory or not). And yes, I would reweire any ES (or SES, etc) mains lampholder on anything I worked on that was wired 'backwards'. No I am not 'afraid' of the mains. I work with mains voltages most days. However, I have a healthy respect for what it can do if misused. And I try to make sure it doesn't get to do any such things :-) > also sure that most installers don't bother) Well, they darn well should... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 09:54:43 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:54:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 01:11:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Feb 2011 at 14:10, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > That's always bothered me a bit. =A0I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a > > > drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil > > > laminations. =A0While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. > > > > Get a cordless. > > Ever have to pre-drill and drive 500 4" deck screws with a cordless? > It can be done, but you'd better have a pile of charged batteries. Personally, I hate rechargeable batteries in anything. Every type I've used (including modern ones) has a ridiculously high self-discharge rate and a fairly long (hours) charging time, Which emans if you want to use something powered by such a battery that you've not used for a couple of months, if you're lucky the battery will only need charging and you'll be held up until it's charged. if you're unlucky, the battery will ned replacing. > I have several cordless drills and drivers, including hammer drills > and impact wrenches. They're okay for small jobs, but don't hold up I can;t see the point of cordless tools in my workshop. Small jobs I will do by hand, for anything larger, I don't mind having to plug the cable in. My father wanted a powered screwdriver recently. In the end he did manage to find a mains-powered one (110V). All I will say is that it's a lot nicer than any cordless one I've ever tried. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 09:56:46 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:56:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4D4CE7.6534.EACCF2@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 01:13:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Feb 2011 at 20:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Possibly. Althoguh a lot of computer equipment is metal-cased and > > certainly wouldn't meet the requirements for double insulation. One > > consern would be the mains filter. > > Those metal-cased line filters are becoming increasingly rare on > power supplies. Progress, I guess. And some things only have 2-pin mains conenctors :-(. I wonder how they comply with the EMC directives.... actually, plenty of my classic machines don't have mains filter modules. They have spearate capaxcitors and indcutors on the PCB. I prefer that -- easier to repair. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:01:13 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:01:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <01NXHCCRGYTU0000UN@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Feb 5, 11 09:29:00 pm Message-ID: > It's happened to me :-( I have a Vaxstation 3100 which was equipped with an Ouch :-( > SPX graphics adapter which was plugged into a very nice VR297 monitor (Sony > Trinitron). I plugged out the monitor cable from the back of the Vaxstation > for some reason. When I plugged it back in I felt a zap. On investigating, > the earth pin in the IEC plug going into the monitor didn't seem to be > making proper contact for some reason. The monitor didn't mind a bit but one I've neve seen that happen. Normally it's due to a wire having fallen off in one of the connectors. Of course tend to prefer the rewirable IEC sockets so I can check the wiring and make sure the contacts aren't bent open/ > of the primary colour outputs from the SPX adapter went away (red I think). > > I traced the connections on the graphics card and found the RGB outputs came > directly out of a large, probably expensive, difficult to replace and rare > looking BT459 RAMDAC :-( I asuem that's a Brooktree part from the number. They are not mormally custom chiups, you even find them (although probably not the right one) on old VGA cards. > > That was the only serious problem I ever had with them but I never liked IEC > plugs and sockets much. Even when they are correctly mated, they often seem > loose. I suppose on the plus side, they are more likely to pull free than > cause damage when I trip over a mains lead... There is a locking assembly avaialble, but few manufacturers seem to use it. And it doesn;t work with moulded scokets (see above ;-)). What mains connector do you prefer? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:02:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:02:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 5, 11 01:49:34 pm Message-ID: > > That's always bothered me a bit. I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a > > drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil > > laminations. While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. > > Remember old (pre ~1970) power drills? : non-polarised plug, > ungrounded, and *aluminum* housing and handle. No, I rememebr pre-1970 poer tools. Aluminium casing, 3 core cable, proper ground to a polarised mains plug. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:07:22 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:07:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <92f1936aba45a1c068a650c5c826452c@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 5, 11 03:05:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 2011 Feb 5, at 7:27 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > >> The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V > >> is=20= > >> > >> the maximum potential relative to ground: > >> NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak > >> Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak > > > > That's one difference. The other difference is that in the States you > > have a centre-tap available. > > ? The centre-tap is there as an outcome of the design, not innate > intent. The peak voltage from the power-carryingwires to ground is also an outcome of the design. My real point is that no device that requires 220V should care about the voltage to ground (within reason). I would certainly consider a 220V device that could not satand 220V between one of the power-carrying wires to ground ans being unsafe. But as various people have pointed out, many US 220V appliances do use 110V for something (controller, timer, etc). That's a bigger problem when running them in Europe Actualyl, I have amn instrument (I think it's my Tektronix 575 curve tracer) whic hahs sepprate wiring arrangements for 115V, 230V with the centre earthed and 230V with one side earthed. No, the last 2 are not a safety thing. Appranetly by having certain points of the transformer primary close ot ground you get slightly less noise in the instrument. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:36:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:36:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <4D4DA023.13050.22FEF04@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 07:08:19 pm Message-ID: > > On 5 Feb 2011 at 16:48, Andy Holt wrote: > > > I am not that surprised given that at some time (in the past 20 > > years?) ES lampholders appear to have become legal in the UK (I'm sure > > they never used to be) and they have a large _easily_touched_ metal > > part that could randomly be connected to live or neutral (I suspect > > that if Tony found himself having to install one he would make sure > > that the screw part went to neutral - I'm also sure that most > > installers don't bother) > > I liked the way the bayonet lamp sockets were used in British comedy > skits, with the bulb popping out. One of my madder inventions is the 'remote control lampholder'. No, I don't mean one with a remote control switch. I mean one that can eject the bulb under remote cotnrol. And yes, I've designed an ES version too ;-) I really must make them sometime. > > In the US, there are still plenty of table lamps with non-polarized > plugs wandering around. I just checked the table lamp by my bedise > and it's not polarized--and it has exposed metal parts. Oh well :-( > > In fact, the ES socket came before the US 2-blade receptacle. > Residential electrical service initially was intended for lighting > only, so early appliances were screwed into lamp sockets. I used to > have one of the old connectors in my hellbox--two wires coming out of > an Edison screw plug. I know I've got a couple of bakelite adapters I've got some rperints of old (1910-ish) American books which show the wall outlets as being ES sockets. The plug was somewhat later made in 2 parts, a part that screwed into the socket and a part tht carried the cable with 2 flat plats to fit into the first part. This esems to have developed into the normal US mains socket of today. > that are inserted between a lamp and the socket and provide two > ungrounded receptacles, along with a pull-chain type of on-off > control for the lamp. I don't know if they are still sold. I am pretty sure I have some of those for BC lampholders. No I don't use them. I also have some BC plugs which let you run non-earthed appliances from UK lampholders. I've seen those on sale in the last year or so. Again, I don't use them... > My house was constructed in 1980 and the lighting circuits (15A) are > separate from those of the wall receptacles (20A). Twenty years > earlier that was not the practice in residential construction. Ovr here, power and lighting circuits have been separate for a very long time. Our lighting circutis are typically fused at 5A, power circuits are 'ring main' ones, fused at 30A. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:12:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:12:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <002201cbc58b$891aebc0$9b50c340$@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 6, 11 00:22:19 am Message-ID: > I had no idea there was another version with an FM tuner in. I wonder how I > could get hold of one? I will have to find mine... From what I remember, it's a yellow cover and titled 'High Quality Sound Reprodcution'. It includes (I think it this order) the 5-20 (EF86, ECC83, 2*EL34, GZ32), preamp for the 5-20 (3*EF86), FM tuner (I can't remember the full line-up, I am pretty sure the IF amplifiers are EF41s, the detector an EB91 with an EM80 tuning indicator), the pre-amps for the 5-10 (EF86) and the 5-10 itself (EF86, ECC83, 2*EL84, EZ81), There were of coruse other FM tuners for the home constructor at one time, Some easier to align than others... I also have the GEC book on audio amplifiers. The _low power_ one is the Williamson (15W, 2*KT66 in the output stage). I think the highest power amplifier schematic in that book gives 1.1kW RMS into the speakers... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:21:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:21:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <002401cbc58e$146ce5a0$3d46b0e0$@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 6, 11 00:40:32 am Message-ID: > > > No, it;s an Asko, from the time before they were taken over. > > > > That would be Finnish then IIRC. Cylinda is Asko Cylinda since a number of Depends on the 'take over' :-) It certianly says 'Made in Sweden' on th front and on the rating plate, > years. We used to pass the Cylinda factory every time we went to see my > ex-parents-in-law. It's in a little village called Jung, in the South-west > of Sweden. Cylinda used to be known for being particularly high quality > since the washer drums were made of stainless steel where everyone else used > mild steel. Yes. THey arr pretty well made inside. Certainly a lot better than most domestic appliaces. > They are meant for shavers and usually marked as such. > The advantage of having earthed sockets nowadays is of course that you can > run hair dryers in the bathroom (or even use the bathroom as a darkroom, > which is presumably not what those who wrote the rules had in mind). AFAIK that is not permitted in the UK. > I have always thought that the UK system was much more sensible. Not only > are all plugs and sockets earthed, fused and switched, but they are also I am not sure what sockets are still permitted over here, but the standard one is the 13A plug to BS1363, which is indeed earthed, polaraised, and cotnains a cartridge fuse. Do socket outlets have to be switched? I would never fit one that isn't, but I thoguth unswitched ones were still available. > polarised so it is impossible to switch live and neutral (provided the > electrician who installed them knew what he was doing). The Swedish plugs Sensible people check to make sure ;-). There are plenty of so-called 'electricians' who get this wrong. > sockets are the same as the German ones, which are symmetrical and neither > switched nor fused. I am nto at all happy with some of the continental wiring systems. I beleive that some countries (Germnany?) oftn have a pair of 16A socket outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And you could plug a small appliance in to osme of those sockets with no other protecive devices in the circuit, even if the flexible cable to the devive is rated at 3A, say. No thanks! [...] > Precisely why i bought the RCD/GFI. I know for a fact I am going to die but Alas thr death rate in the UK is 'one per person' too ;-) But more seriosuly, I feel I might well die from electrocution. After all I work on mains-powered stuff most days and something could go wrong. But this doens;t mean I am not going to be sensible about it and use RCDs etc if I think they could help. > I don't intend to bring it about by electrocution in the bathroom. And of > course the RCD goes on the end of the lead outside the bathroom. I would > want one even in a dedicated darkroom. I have a dedicated darkroom (it's a little hard treating a DeVere 504 enlarger as a temporary device :-)), but I still have (and want) an RCD on the incoming mains to it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:50:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:50:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP 7240A plotter paper substitute? In-Reply-To: <4D4E290D.1030807@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Feb 5, 11 08:52:29 pm Message-ID: > > I seem to have a plotter-based theme going here today... > > Snagged an HP 7240A (this is the RS-232 version of the 7245A) plotter > today, it's in working condition. A really cool design -- a combination Nice! I have a 7245A (HPIB of course) and I think it's a very interesting design. As you probably know the printhead has 13 elements. 12 of them, in a staggered diagonal pattern are used for printign test (either horizontally or vertically). The 13th is a 'pen' used for vector plotting. The power to that one is controlleed so that all lines come out in the same intensity. Howe similar is it to the 7245? I always throught it silly that in the 7245A (at least) they didn't route the +/-12V rails to the interface PCB connector. The interface PCB slotsin from the rear, and having 12V on that connector ould have made making an RS232 board a lot easier. Perhaps the 7240 remidies this. Does it have thr interesign internal self-tests? I had great fun settign up the motro drivrrs in mine... I assume you'ge got inside it. The casing screwas are not obvious. From waht I remmeber there are 4 scres on the back holding the mains rectifier unit to the case. Take out the top 2 only. Then remvoe the front nameplate bush pushjign on the 2 pins inside and remvoe the 2 screws under it. Then the case comes off. Do not take the mechanism apart unless you have the special tools to reallign it. I made up a set, but it's not trivial... > plotter/printer using a thermal print head. My understanding is that the > special tractor-feed thermal paper for this thing is basically > impossible to find. Anyone out there found a reasonable substitute? The main problem is those holes. And that one hole per page (at least in the roll paper) is elongaged to give a top-of-form posiiton. The Australian HP museum suggests stickign sprokceted eges to fax paper, I doubt theyv'e ever tried this :-) > Mine came with maybe 1/4 of a roll left in it, and I guess after that's > gone I'll probably never get to use it again :). I was lucky enough to get half a dozen rolls with my 7245A, but I have no idea what I will do when they run out . Here are a few notes on the 7245A... PSU Fan Dismantling ------------------- Dismantle PSU. Disconnect mains input harness from 'line' switch (push-on terminals). Remove fan and harness from PSU chassis. Remove cable clip on fan housing. Undo 2 slot-head screws (under label). Feed cable through housing and remove motor/blade assembly. Recover thrust pad (inside housing. Rmmove circlip from end of spindle. Lift off waskers. Remove blade/rotor from stator. Lubricate bearings with light machine oil when reassembling X Drive Fan Dismantling ----------------------- Remove fan from X drive chassis (3 screws). Remove adapter from fan (one further screw). Remove 4 crosshead screws on fan motor plate. Lift motor assembly out of housing. Remove 2 slothead screws (under label) and take off plate. Remove circlip from spindle end WITH CARE, it is spring loaded. Take off washer, ball race, 'tophat' spacer, spring, second 'tophat' spacer. Lift out stator and remove second ball race and spacer from spindle. X Drive Chassis --------------- Anticlockwise rotation of motor -> Carriage moves to right To lock motor, apply 5V to one motor winding (e.g. between red and yellow wires at motor connnector) Fit to LH side plate : Microswitch harness (2 microswitches) Paper roll clip Y drive clip Y drive stop (shorter 'tail') Tensioner assembly Fit to RH side plate : Paper roll clip Y drive clip Y drive stop (longer 'tail') Bail spring (loop towards rear of machine) 2 idlers Motor mounting bracket Assemble chassis. Fit motor (wires on left side, nuts on front side) Fit pulley, hole at top. Lock motor (see above). Fit cable : LH cable (long end). 3 turns anticlockwise from hole, towards back. RH cable (short end) : 1+3/4 turns clockwise from hole, towards front. Y drive special tools --------------------- 1) 3 spacers, Each 30mm long, made from 1/2" brass rod, 3.5mm hole drilled centrally (along axis). Length is reasonably critical. These are used in place of the plastic motor mount when using the platten-movement tool and checking the motor coupling 2) Platten-movement tool. Brass block, 5/8" square by 3" long. Drill centrally 5mm, and tap M6 (1). Drill 3.5mm holes 1+5/16" either side of this (approximately 316" from ends of bar). All holes to be aligned along center of bar, and drilled perpendicualr to the face : Top View: Centre Line | +----------------------------+ ---- | o * o | 5/8" +----------------------------+ ---- | | | | | | | <1+5/16> | <1+5/16> | | | | | | | <----------3-------------> | Mill away ends of bar to reduce thickness to aproximately 1/8" (thickness of motor flange) for about 1/2" SIde view: +------------------------+ ---------- | | 1/2 | | +-----+ + ----+ ---------- | | 1/8 + -----------------------------------+ ---------- | | | | | | | | |<1/2>| <-------2------------> |<1/2>| The central hole is fitted with an M6 (1) bolt. Either a stnadard commercial one, or make a both from 1/4" or 5/16" brass rod, turned down to 6 mm and threaded with a die for a length of 50 mm. Knurl the 'head' end to give a suitable grip and part off. In use, this tool is fitted in place of the stepper motor, using 2 of the spacers mentioned above. The M6 screw presses on the end of the platten spindle. With the platten fixing screws hand-tight, the M6 screw is used to postion the platten to align the LH sprockets. (1) THis thrad is not critical, although obviously the hole and bolt must be the same thread. M6 is 1mm pitch. 0BA, or 1/4-28 UNF would be fine too. 3) A courved straightedge. This is fitted round the platten, in contact with the teeth on the LH sprockt. It is then used to line up those teeth with the ones on the LH drum sproket. Turn a brass cylinder 1.27" (32,3mm) diameter by 5/8" thick (approximately). Drill a 3.5mm hole along the axis, tap M4. Drill a 2.5mm hole radially, 1/4" from one face, tap M3. Drill a 4mm hole in a 6" (approx) flat metal square (e.g. 1/8" thick aluminium), aporximately 1.5" from the edges. Screw the cylinder there with an M4 screww, radial hole closer to the plate. The actaul straightedge is made from brass strip, 1/2" wide. Drill a 4mm hole on the centre line close to one end, fix to the cylinder with an M3 screw and washer. Ensure the strip contacts the plate along its full length. Bend the strip round the cylinder by hand for about 1/2 turn, keeping it in contact with the plate. Remove from the cylinder, continue forming by hand so as to fit closely round it. Y Drive Assembly ---------------- Assemble the following 6 subassemblies first. 1) Belt cover : Fit the belt spring leaf (2 screws/nuts/washers) 2) Paper clamp : Assemble the tension arms to the side rails, fit the springs. Assemble the front roller (presses against drum when machine is asembled), screw side rails to this. Fit the white plastic guide roller to the tension arms 3) Paper sensor top cover. Assmeble the magnet, metal return plate, 2 spacers to this plate with 2 screws, washers, and nuts. 4) Paper sensors : Fit the U-shaped brackets to the cross rail. The easiest way to do this is to fit the spring to the cross rail, using a thin rod (e.g. a small crosspoint or Torx srewdriver inserted through the hole on the bottom of this rail to giude it in place. Then fit the bracket to the rail alongside the sping ( top upringht (tapped hole) inside the rail), pull out the rodn amd use a small screwdriver to compress the spring a little and slide the bracket in place. Use the rod to align the spring and the holes in the rail and U-bracket. Fit the special adjusting screw from the bottom, screw into the tapped hole in the U-bracket. Fit the reflective optoswitches to the sensor PCBs, fit these to the U-brackets (PCB away from the bracket), fit the allen-head screws and tighten (Sensor pin side against the 'bumps' on the U bracket). Fit the cross rail to the left side plate (cable form under the rail), fit the fixing screw finger-tight. 5) Platten : Fit an E-circlip into the grouve on the platten spindle (this is the one with one end turned down). Fit a plain (not flanged) ball race inside the platten at each end. WIth the platten mounting face away from you and the flat (prinhead surface) towards the top, slide in the spindle from the RHS, fit a samll sprocket on the LH end, fit a clamp and tighten. Slide the other small sproket onto the RH end of the spindle, fit the coupling/belt sprocket (pin to go through hole in paper sprocket), fit clamp. Place assembly on a flat surface and alighn the pins on the 2 paper sprockets. Tighten the clamp at the RH side. Fit the mouting rail to the platten with 3 allen screws, finger tight. 6) Drum : Fit an E circlip into the grouve nearest the end of the drum spindle. Slide a large paper sprocket onto thi from the long end of the spinddle (clamp end to be towarfs the long end, fit a clamp. Slide the sprocket hard against the E-clrclip, tighten the clamp. Fit the drum tube, the metal drum onto the spindle, fit a clamp inside the latter so that the screw can be accessed via the hole in the metal drum. Fit the other large sprocket, engaging the pin on the metal drum with its hole. Alight the teeth on the paper sprokects on a flat surface as before and tighten the clamp. Fit an E-circlip into the remaing groove on the drum spindle. Slide a flanged ball race onto each end of the drum spridle, flanges towards the drum. Assembling the Y drive : Fit the platten to the left side plate, motor coupling/sprocket to the right. Fit and tighten 2 screws. Fit the drum into the left side plate, short end of the spindle to the left. Fit the right side plate, motor harness loop under the paper sensor cross rail. Screw in the the 3 screws that hold the the RH side plate in place. Leave the one in the paper sensor rail finger-tight, note that the top screw on the platten mouting on this slde is the long one and fitted with a spacer under the head (to keep the motor harness away from moving parts. Fit the hase plate under the paper sesnor, the paper senosr harness and notor harness fit into the slot on the cross rail. Screw to the cross rail with 1 screws and to the lugs on the side plates with 4 scress and hexagonal spacers. Tighten the 2 screws holding the sensor cross rail to the side plates. Fit the platten movement tool to the stepper motor mouting holes with 2 motor mouting screws and 2 of the spacers made earlier. Slide the platten all the way to the right and screw in the the bolt on the tool until it just touches the end of the shaft. Fit the curved straightedge tool round the platnen, againsts the teeth of the LH paper sprocket. Screw in the bolt of the movement tool until the straightedge contacts the teeth of the LH drum sprocket. Tighten the 3 allen screws holding the platten to the mouting rail (a ball-ended tool is useful here), remvoe the special tools. Fit the toothed belt to the platten motor coupling sproket. Fit the sproket to the drum spindle. Fit the tensioner sleeve to the tensioner, fit this to the side plate with 1 screw. Turn it to tension the belt, tighten the screw. Fit the clamp to the drum sprocket, leave untightened. Run a length of plotter paper over the sprockets on the drum and platten. Routate the latter so that all teeth enter holes on the paper and tighten the clamp on the drum sprocket. Fit the motor coupling to the motor and fit the clamp. Fit the cross piece to the platten coupling, fit the motor to the side plate with the 3 screws and the spacers made earlier. Tighten the clamp on the motor coupling. Check everything turns freely. Remove the motor and the spacers. Fit the motor to the motor mount (1 screw and nut). The motor wires are routed down the side of the motor, through a slot in the mount. Fit this assembly to the mechanism, checking that the cross piece is correctly engaged and that the cable is routed above the long screw on the platten mouning. Fit the 3 motor screws and tighten. Plug the motor cable into the motor harness and fit the connectors and cables into the grouve on the side plate. Fit the paper clamp assembly, 1 screw and large washer on one side, 1 screw and bush on the other. FIt the belt cover (2 screws), check this latches the paper clamp Fit the top cover on the paper sensor (5 screws) --------------------------- Extraced from the 7245A manuals... ------- I/O PCB ------- Thermal Head Vector Resistor Adjustment --------------------------------------- 1) Unplug Printhead ! 2) Conenct DVM (15V range) between TP1 (I/O PCB) and analogue common 3) Connect TP4 to analogue common 4) Adjust Bias (R91/RV3) to get 7.88V to 7.96V 5) Short TP2 to TP3 6) Adjust Gain (R90/RV2) to get 13.03V to 13.17V. 7) Remove jumpers Thermal Head Character Resistor Adjustment ------------------------------------------ 1) Ensure head unplugged 2) Connect DVM (15V range) between TP7 (I/O PCB) and analogue common 3) Adjust R89 (RV1) for 13.37V to 13.63V 4) Remove leads, connect head ------------ MOTOR DRIVER ------------ DAC Offset/Gain --------------- 1) Turn off X and Y motors 2) Turn 3rd Harmonic pots R89 (X) and R88 (Y) fully ccw 3) DIP switch 1,4 open; 2,3 closed 4) DVM (10V) betwen TP2 and analogue common 5) Reset 6) Adjust DAC offest (R87( for -4.48V to -4.52V 7) DIP switch 1,3,4 open; 2 closed 8) Adjust DAC Gain (R86) fro +4.48V to +4.52V 9) Repeat 3-8 to minimise interaction effects. X 3rd harmonic preliminary -------------------------- 1) DIP Swtich 1,4 open; 2,3 closed 2) Adjust R89 (X 3rd harmonic) for -5.98V to -6.02V) Y 3rd harmonic preliminary -------------------------- 1) DMM between TP9 and analogue common 2) Adjust R88 (Y 3rd harmonic) for -5.98 to -6.02V 3) DIP swtich 1 cloced; 2,3,4 open Turn on X motor X 3rd harmonic adjustment ------------------------- 1) Postion carriage within 1cm of LH side 2) Postion paper with 1 full page out, perforation ~5cm above window 3) Select test 32(8), STEP 4) Adjust X 3rd harmonic pot (R89) for minimum vibration with finger on carriage 5) Press STEP until carriage stops Driver X amplifier gain ----------------------- 1) Select test 31(8), STEP 2) Adjust X gain XG (R91) for minimum vibration 3) Press STEP until carriage stops Driver X amplifier offsets -------------------------- 1) Select test 30(8), STEP 2) Set X offset XO2 (R92) to mid position 3) Adjust X01 (R90) for minimum vibration 4) Adjust X02 (R92) for minimum vibration 5) Press STEP until carriage stops Turn off X motor, turn on Y Y 3rd harmonic adjustment ------------------------- 1) Selct test 36(8), STEP 2) Adjust Y 3rd pot (R88) for minimum vibration/noise 3) Press STEP until paper stops Driver amplifier Y gain ------------------------ 1) Select test 35(8), STEP 2) Adjust YG (R94) for minimum vibration/noise 3) Press STEP until paper stops Driver amplifier Y offset ------------------------- 1) Select test 34(8), STEP 2) Set YO2 (R95) to mid position 3) Adjust YO1 (R93) for minimum vibration/noise 4) Adjust YO2 (R95) for minimum vibration/noise 5) Press STEP until paper stops Turn on both motors Summary ------- Seq Test X Motor Y Motor Adjust 1 32(8) On Off X 3rd 2 31(8) On Off XG 3 30(8) On Off XO2 mid, adj XO1; adj XO2 4 36(8) Off On Y 3rd 5 35(8) Off On YG 6 34(8) Off On YO" mid, adj YO1; adj YO2 Test 37(8) plots lines from all 6 vector tests Test 27(8) prints characters. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:52:30 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:52:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: from "Jason T" at Feb 6, 11 00:55:31 am Message-ID: > While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with > a 3.5" floppy before. > > Who can name any others? Some of the later Amstrad PCWs HP120 (or HP125) with an HP9121 drive unit -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 10:27:24 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 16:27:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <4CA4BF8B9BD64A0C9D98F9514A020F62@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Feb 6, 11 02:22:44 pm Message-ID: > > Thanks for that explanation Tony. > > The switch is part mechanical and part light sensor. A plastic pin is > pushed down when the disk is first inserted (incidently, this pin is at > exactly the same location as the hole in a 3.5 inch HD disk which is why the > Lisa doesn't acknowledge those kinds of drives). This pin is joined at > right angles to a plastic block which cuts off a light beam thereby > activating the switch. The plastic block is probsly what's called a 'slotted optoswitch' in most catalogues. Inside is an LED (sometimes vixible red, sometimes IR) and a phototransistor. Puting something opaque in the slot cuts the light off from the phototransistor. [...] > I tried manually moving the platter to different starting positions before > activating the switch but whether the motor fired or not seemed random. It > is interesting that 2 or my 3 Lisa floppy drives have this symptom. It may be a stnadard problem... Perhaps the motor control IC was a bit underrated so it fails easil, or perhaps said IC was not particularly reliable anyway. > > Some fault on the circuit board for sure. My plan at this stage is to seek Is there just one PCB in the drive, or is the spindle motor as separate board? Can you identify the spindle motor controller IC? If not, what ICs are on the board (and we'll see if we recognise anyof them)? -tony From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Feb 6 11:31:11 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 12:31:11 -0500 Subject: trs 80 model I "i/o bus interface adapter" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102061731.p16HVJwA019806@billY.EZWIND.NET> Does anyone have a TRS 80 Model 1 with Expansion Interface and external hard drive? According to a 3rd party hard drive manufacturer (VRDATA Hard Disk III) there is a small device called the trs 80 model I "i/o bus interface adapter" that goes between the EI and the hard drive. Any clues about this? Bill From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 6 12:10:30 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 13:10:30 -0500 Subject: Corvus Mac Disks... In-Reply-To: References: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D4E43EF.5010007@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D4EE416.8060600@atarimuseum.com> Arrrrgggggggg......... okay, you got me, Voila! Though Piano does sound better ;-) Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> 7.5.3 and viola! I was able to read the diskettes (most).... One > > Why not guitar or piano? ;-) > > Christian > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 12:10:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 18:10:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: trs 80 model I "i/o bus interface adapter" In-Reply-To: <201102061731.p16HVJwA019806@billY.EZWIND.NET> from "B Degnan" at Feb 6, 11 12:31:11 pm Message-ID: > > Does anyone have a TRS 80 Model 1 with Expansion Interface and > external hard drive? According to a 3rd party hard drive > manufacturer (VRDATA Hard Disk III) there is a small device called > the trs 80 model I "i/o bus interface adapter" that goes between the > EI and the hard drive. > > Any clues about this? I don;t have one, I never had a hard disk on my M1. But I can try a few guesses The hard drive units for the M3/M4 consised of a drive, a Western Digital controller (WD1001 type thing) and a simple address decocder. The drive unit had a cable that plggued into the M3/M4 expansion bus connector. Said bus allowed you to add external I/O-port devices, and conssited of 8 addres lines, 8 data lines and a few control lines It's a 50 pin edge connector. The M1 bus has rather more signals (and fewer grounds) on a 40 pin connector. Most of the M3/M4 signals are there, just on different pins. One mino differnce is that the M3/M4 requires the peripheral device to pull a pin low o nthe connector when it's being accessed, to enable a buffer inside the computer, The M1 has nothing like this. Anyway. My first guess is that the adapter boes between the 40 pin expansion bus of the M1 (front connector on the left side of the EI) and the 50 pin cable to the hard drive controller. It simply connects the signals on the cable to the right pins on the M1 bus. Given the pinouts (and they're in the technical manuals for the M1 and M3), it shouldn't be hard to make something. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 6 13:33:23 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 11:33:23 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 5, 11 01:11:17 pm, Message-ID: <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2011 at 15:54, Tony Duell wrote: >> I can;t see the point of cordless tools in my workshop. Small jobs I > will do by hand, for anything larger, I don't mind having to plug the > cable in. On the subject of plugs and receptacles, quite a number of professional building contractors around here use 3-prong "twist- lock" aka "Hubbel" connectors for their corded tools. One advantage is that the plugs won't simply pull out. The twist-lock connectors are also quite common in things such as RV hookups and portable generators and can be had in various sizes of 3 and 4 prong versions. They were quite common in comptuer data centers, but I don't know if that's still true. --Chuck From allanh-cctalk2 at kallisti.com Sun Feb 6 13:50:43 2011 From: allanh-cctalk2 at kallisti.com (Allan Hessenflow) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 11:50:43 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110206195043.GA29682@kallisti.com> Jason T wrote: > While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with > a 3.5" floppy before. > > Who can name any others? BNW System 1. Okay, there was only one of those so it's not surprising you haven't seen one. It was dual processor, Z80 and 68000; it ran CP/M 3 on the Z80 and both CP/M and UCSD p-system on the 68K. It used the high RPM Sony 3.5" drives (600RPM?); those used the same data rate as a standard 8" floppy, so the controller could run both 8" and 3.5" without having to switch any clocking. allan -- Allan N. Hessenflow allanh at kallisti.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 6 13:52:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 11:52:52 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4D4E8B94.15822.C91EFF@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2011 at 0:55, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Shawn Rutledge > wrote: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260733084635 > > While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with > a 3.5" floppy before. > > Who can name any others? Allen-Bradley Advisor+ Amada Horizon (CNC mill) AT&T 7700 Barudan (embroidery machine) Beehive Microbee Bondwell 2 BU-60 Acraft test set Coleco ADAM Computer Dynamics (CNC) CPT Phoenix Digitech 500 D-X Designs P-112 Echo GT Electroglas/Xynetics wafer tester Various flavors of Eposn boxes (PX-10, QX-16, etc.) Eureka A4 F&G Cable Tester Hagiwara HPU-801 (CNC) Hitachi HPC-6000 Jonos Kontron (transient recorder) Marconi Midata 510 MC Machinery (CNC) Memotech (various systems) Mitsubishi (tons of CNC models) Micromint SB180 National BLC 86/12B NDR NEC PC8500(Starlet), Bungo New Brain Norsonic 830/836 OEM Screen Typist Olivetti 250, CWP1, ETV112 Olympia Olytext 20 Robotool CWM1 Sanyo MBC-1160, 1250, 4050 Siemens PG-635 Silver-Reed (WP) Sinclair ZX-Spectrum+3 Spectravideo Telcom Tokyo Electron 80W (microscope) Xerox 1800 Yasbec (at least 2 flavors) These are representative of systems using more-or-less standard modulation (FM or MFM) and straightforward encoding. There are many others. I've also omitted third-party 3.5" adapters, such as those marketed for the Amstrad boxes. --Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 13:52:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 19:52:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 6, 11 11:33:23 am Message-ID: > On the subject of plugs and receptacles, quite a number of > professional building contractors around here use 3-prong "twist- > lock" aka "Hubbel" connectors for their corded tools. One advantage Ove here, 'Hubbel connector' is used as a generic term for _any_ American-type mains connector by some people. Hubbel make a lot mroe than twist-n-lock plugs after all. I think most of the 230V plugs in my PDP11s were made by Hubbel, for example. But I guess it's like the example Philip (I think) stated of calling the BS4343 plugs 'Commando Plugs'. > is that the plugs won't simply pull out. The twist-lock connectors > are also quite common in things such as RV hookups and portable > generators and can be had in various sizes of 3 and 4 prong versions. > > They were quite common in comptuer data centers, but I don't know if > that's still true. I'e seen the odd one or two, I think. maybe one of my old paper tape units has a twist-n-lock connector for the mains input, I think some BRPE punches did, for example. That would be a 3 contact one with a central earth pin and 2 different-sized curved hooked plades for the live and neutral wires. They are certainly not commonly used in the UK. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 6 14:08:18 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 12:08:18 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <139fe3e4d93dbff8ceb1d32fb90b09e5@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 6, at 8:07 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> On 2011 Feb 5, at 7:27 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>>> The real-world difference between North American 240V and Euro 240V >>>> is=20= >>>> >>>> the maximum potential relative to ground: >>>> NA: 120 VRMS, 170V peak >>>> Euro: 240 VRMS, 340V peak >>> >>> That's one difference. The other difference is that in the States you >>> have a centre-tap available. >> >> ? The centre-tap is there as an outcome of the design, not innate >> intent. > > The peak voltage from the power-carryingwires to ground is also an > outcome of the design. You're obfuscating. The point of your comment remains a mystery other than being to find something to comment on. At this point, no, I don't want an explanation. > My real point is that no device that requires 220V should care about > the > voltage to ground (within reason). I would certainly consider a 220V > device that could not satand 220V between one of the power-carrying > wires > to ground ans being unsafe. Yes, good design would say that it shouldn't matter and I can't say that I've run across a device where it did matter. But I'm not about to tell someone working on a device I'm not acquainted with that they never will. Hence my use of the word 'unlikely' in the earlier message. > But as various people have pointed out, many US 220V appliances do use > 110V for something (controller, timer, etc). That's a bigger problem > when > running them in Europe > > Actualyl, I have amn instrument (I think it's my Tektronix 575 curve > tracer) whic hahs sepprate wiring arrangements for 115V, 230V with the > centre earthed and 230V with one side earthed. No, the last 2 are not a > safety thing. Appranetly by having certain points of the transformer > primary close ot ground you get slightly less noise in the instrument. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 6 14:09:05 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 13:09:05 -0700 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4EFFE1.8000101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/6/2011 9:12 AM, Tony Duell wrote: time, Some easier to align than others... > > I also have the GEC book on audio amplifiers. The _low power_ one is the > Williamson (15W, 2*KT66 in the output stage). I think the highest power > amplifier schematic in that book gives 1.1kW RMS into the speakers... With power like that, who needs *TRANSISTORS* > -tony Ben. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 6 14:10:14 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 12:10:14 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b46ea381e5c23429bebbb62b9f11992@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 6, at 8:02 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> That's always bothered me a bit. I've replaced the 2-wire cord in a >>> drill with a 3-wire one, attaching the ground wire to the field coil >>> laminations. While not perfect, it's probably better than nothing. >> >> Remember old (pre ~1970) power drills? : non-polarised plug, >> ungrounded, and *aluminum* housing and handle. > > No, I rememebr pre-1970 poer tools. Aluminium casing, 3 core cable, > proper ground to a polarised mains plug. > If you wish to point out that's the way it was over there, fine; that's interesting. It's not the way it was over here. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 14:11:46 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:11:46 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > On the subject of plugs and receptacles, quite a number of > professional building contractors around here use 3-prong "twist- > lock" aka "Hubbel" connectors for their corded tools. ?One advantage > is that the plugs won't simply pull out. Yes, extension cords at construction sites tend to take a tremendous amount of abuse, getting run over, yanked, chopped, abraded, and stolen. Twistlocks help. > They were quite common in comptuer data centers, but I don't know if > that's still true. Generally, yes. I think there is a move away from the older R&S style connectors of the big mainframe era. Which is good for us, because the latter are EXPENSIVE (especially the ones for 400 Hz power). -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 6 14:13:46 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 12:13:46 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 6, 11 11:33:23 am, Message-ID: <4D4E907A.10197.DC4121@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2011 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > But I guess it's like the example Philip (I think) stated of calling > the BS4343 plugs 'Commando Plugs'. Or the way 36-positon (printer) or 50-position (SCSI-I) connectors are referred to as "Centronics" connectors. Before that, when the 50- position unit saw most of its use in office key telephone systems, it was often referred to as an "Amphenol" or "Blue Ribbon" connector. I've never heard the 24-position version of the connector used for GPIB called "Centronics", however. Some names just stick, defying any reason. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 14:18:57 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:18:57 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4E907A.10197.DC4121@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4E907A.10197.DC4121@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Or the way 36-positon (printer) or 50-position (SCSI-I) connectors > are referred to as "Centronics" connectors. ?Before that, when the 50- > position unit saw most of its use in office key telephone systems, it > was often referred to as an "Amphenol" or "Blue Ribbon" connector. Blue Ribbon was the name of the product line, and covered quite a few styles of connectors. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 14:23:04 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:23:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <139fe3e4d93dbff8ceb1d32fb90b09e5@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 6, 11 12:08:18 pm Message-ID: > >> ? The centre-tap is there as an outcome of the design, not innate > >> intent. > > > > The peak voltage from the power-carryingwires to ground is also an > > outcome of the design. > > You're obfuscating. The point of your comment remains a mystery other > than being to find something to comment on. At this point, no, I don't > want an explanation. I am sorry, I really don't understnad what you are getting at. I think we are ageed on the following (and there are plenty of books to back this up ) : US 23)V mains is 115-0-115V with the centre tap connected to something close to local ground. Therefore the peak votlage between any current-carrying conductor and ground is 115*qrt(2)V UK 230V minas has one side connected to something close to local ground. Therefore the peak voltge between a current-carrying conductor and ground is 230*sqrt(2)V. This may make a difference in some cases, but _I_ feel that the number of cases where that matters is vanishingly small. But also US 230V mains has that centre-tap available, so you can wire part of your device to run from 115V (centre-tap to one outside wire) if you want to. I understnad this is commonly done to power control units, lamps, timers, etc. UK mains does not hve an avialable centre tap. if you want 10V you have to use a step-down (auto)transformer. Practically, if you want to run a US 230V device in the UK, it is much more likely you will have to provide 110V as well than that you'll ahve to worry about something breaking down due to the higher peak voltage to ground. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 14:24:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:24:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <0b46ea381e5c23429bebbb62b9f11992@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 6, 11 12:10:14 pm Message-ID: > >> Remember old (pre ~1970) power drills? : non-polarised plug, > >> ungrounded, and *aluminum* housing and handle. > > > > No, I rememebr pre-1970 poer tools. Aluminium casing, 3 core cable, > > proper ground to a polarised mains plug. > > > If you wish to point out that's the way it was over there, fine; that's > interesting. It's not the way it was over here. I don;'t dispute that for an instant. What I do disagree with is that all pre-1970 power tools in all countries wire not earthed nad wired to non-polarised plugs. This is an international list after all. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 14:28:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:28:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4E907A.10197.DC4121@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 6, 11 12:13:46 pm Message-ID: > > On 6 Feb 2011 at 19:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > > But I guess it's like the example Philip (I think) stated of calling > > the BS4343 plugs 'Commando Plugs'. > > Or the way 36-positon (printer) or 50-position (SCSI-I) connectors > are referred to as "Centronics" connectors. Before that, when the 50- And of course the well-known 'fact' that all D connectors are in a size 'B' shell :-) > position unit saw most of its use in office key telephone systems, it I've seen it called a 'Telco' connctor, even in respectable manuals like those from HP. > was often referred to as an "Amphenol" or "Blue Ribbon" connector. I thought that strictly 'Blue Ribbon' were the larger ones, like the oens used on Tektornic 1-series and letter-series plug-ins. The Centronics/SCSI-1/GPIB connectors are 'microribbon'. > I've never heard the 24-position version of the connector used for > GPIB called "Centronics", however. I have. At least one catalogue used to list 'Centronics' connectors in 14, 24, 36 and 50 way versions. Another catalogue (from a very well-knwon electronic compont distributro over here) listed 'IEEE-488' conenctors in 14, 24, 36 nad 50 way versions. Yes, they are what we're talking about... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 6 14:38:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 12:38:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110206122820.X87298@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Jason T wrote: > While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with > a 3.5" floppy before. > Who can name any others? While nowhere near as many as 5.25", there were plenty. Amacom/Amada NC tools Amstrad (3.5, not 3") AT&T WP7700 Bondwell CDI CPT Epson Geneva PX-8 HP (several models and formats) IBS Jonos Olivetti Sony M35 Sony SMC70 Xscribe How many more would you like? Do you want to count CP/M-86? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 6 14:51:10 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 12:51:10 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4E907A.10197.DC4121@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 6, 11 12:13:46 pm, Message-ID: <4D4E993E.22553.FE7E64@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2011 at 20:28, Tony Duell wrote: > And of course the well-known 'fact' that all D connectors are in a > size 'B' shell :-) Aren't PL/SO-239 coax connectors still called "UHF" connectors by some? That comes from a time when anything above about 30 MHz was "UHF"--and anything above 300 MHz was "microwave". --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 6 15:01:25 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:01:25 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 6, at 12:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > Generally, yes. I think there is a move away from the older R&S style > connectors of the big mainframe era. Which is good for us, because the > latter are EXPENSIVE (especially the ones for 400 Hz power). Are these (R&S) the threaded aviation/military connectors? My HP2116C came with a threaded-and-keyed-housing connector with 3 round pins in a triangle, one being longer than the others. One of a large family of connectors with various housing diameters and number of pins, which I've always taken to be primarily an aviation and military-use family, but never known the name of. I don't know if it was a special order on the HP2116 or standard (never seen it on other HP equip), but I replaced it rather than try to find the mate. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 6 15:07:51 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:07:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110206130645.D87298@shell.lmi.net> > While I am by no means Mr. CP/M, I have never seen a CP/M machine with > a 3.5" floppy before. > Who can name any others? But who can name a machine with the 3.25" disks that Dysan bet the company on? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 6 15:10:42 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:10:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Corvus Mac Disks... In-Reply-To: <4D4EE416.8060600@atarimuseum.com> References: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D4E43EF.5010007@atarimuseum.com> <4D4EE416.8060600@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <20110206130858.D87298@shell.lmi.net> > > 7.5.3 and viola! I was able to read the diskettes (most).... One > Why not guitar or piano? ;-) Harder to hold with your chin and use a bow on? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 6 15:14:56 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:14:56 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 6, at 12:23 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think we are ageed on the following (and there are plenty of books to > back this up ) : > > US 23)V mains is 115-0-115V with the centre tap connected to something > close to local ground. Therefore the peak votlage between any > current-carrying conductor and ground is 115*qrt(2)V > > UK 230V minas has one side connected to something close to local > ground. > Therefore the peak voltge between a current-carrying conductor and > ground > is 230*sqrt(2)V. > > This may make a difference in some cases, but _I_ feel that the number > of > cases where that matters is vanishingly small. > > But also US 230V mains has that centre-tap available, so you can wire > part of your device to run from 115V (centre-tap to one outside wire) > if > you want to. I understnad this is commonly done to power control units, > lamps, timers, etc. > > UK mains does not hve an avialable centre tap. if you want 10V you have > to use a step-down (auto)transformer. > > Practically, if you want to run a US 230V device in the UK, it is much > more likely you will have to provide 110V as well than that you'll ahve > to worry about something breaking down due to the higher peak voltage > to > ground. Yes, all of which was covered earlier in the thread. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 6 15:29:13 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 21:29:13 +0000 Subject: Acorn floppy interface question Message-ID: <4D4F12A9.7050103@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Hi all, This is going to seem like a weird question...... Does anyone know why on almost all of the Acorn machines with disk interfaces (including at least one non-Acord designed one), they gate the drive select signals with the motor on signal. e.g. drive select is inactive unless the moror is also on ? This seems to be a peculiarity of Acorn as none of the other machines I am familliar with do this (Dragon, CoCo etc), even when they use the WDxa7xx type controlers. Though I guess cirtainly with the Atom / BBC A/B it may be a requirement of the 8271, it seems odd that it was carried over to the machines that only ever had 177x controlers. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 6 16:37:41 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 14:37:41 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: <20110206130645.D87298@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20110206130645.D87298@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D4EB235.26352.1600196@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2011 at 13:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > But who can name a machine with the 3.25" disks that Dysan bet the > company on? Repeat 325 times: But if at first he minds his hits, And drinks Champaigne among the wits, Five deep he toasts the towering lasses, Repeats yon verse wrote on glasses: Is in the chair, prescribes the law, And lies with those he never saw. --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 16:53:48 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:53:48 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Are these (R&S) the threaded aviation/military connectors? No, those threaded things form a diverse family, and go under the names of AN3100s, MS connectors, and so forth. The old R&S connectors are the big "pin and sleeve" types, with older models in metal enclosures. The new ones are plastic, color coded, and in the UK are called "Commando plugs". They are often seen at marinas, as they are available in water tight enclosures. > My HP2116C came with a threaded-and-keyed-housing connector with 3 round > pins in a triangle, one being longer than the others. > One of a large family of connectors with various housing diameters and > number of pins, which I've always taken to be primarily an aviation and > military-use family, but never known the name of. Originally AN310x, with x signifying straight/angle/chassis/cable options. The system was formed around 1941 (I think), in order to standardize the US military's connector situation. > I don't know if it was a special order on the HP2116 or standard (never seen > it on other HP equip), but I replaced it rather than try to find the mate. Those three pinners in various sizes are quite common. -- Will From g-wright at att.net Sun Feb 6 17:54:49 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 15:54:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandem clx cyclone -r Seattle area Message-ID: <31419.34119.qm@web83804.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Any interest in this before it gets scrapped. Missing the drives and Drive holders. rest looks Good. Full Model number T-16 7168 Name CLX cyclone-R vintage 1991 or so - Jerry From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 6 18:17:19 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 13:17:19 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: <70B0CE48D0D04CDB84EBC56BC7344858@massey.ac.nz> If my search for a 400k drive comes up short and/or if time allows later this week I'll work on seeing if I can ID the motor controller IC. There are two PCBs in the drive, the top of the platter goes through one, and the bottom of the platter goes through another. When I open it up again, I'll take some pictures. Terry > Is there just one PCB in the drive, or is the spindle motor as separate > board? Can you identify the spindle motor controller IC? If not, what ICs > are on the board (and we'll see if we recognise anyof them)? > > -tony > > From david at classiccomputing.com Sun Feb 6 18:34:59 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 19:34:59 -0500 Subject: Historical Computer Society Message-ID: <169E157B-2A65-4A94-9AA9-CC1B52BEEBBC@classiccomputing.com> After a poor turnout at my place of work, I canceled trying to hold meetings there. Instead, I created a discussion group for the Historical Computer Society. There are a few of us there now, and we are building a grassroots organization that way. This is a group to become a lot like MARCH (http://www.marchclub.org/) for the greater Atlanta / southeast US region. A few of us had our first meeting in a restaurant yesterday, so I think that is a good start. More information is here - http://www.classiccomputing.com/CC/Meetings.html Anyone in this area, please consider becoming a part. Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From fryers at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 18:58:02 2011 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 08:58:02 +0800 Subject: DC Power Was: OT: american vs european 220 Message-ID: All, This is starting to get further off topic as this is more a few years into the future. I was reading the IEEE Spectrum for Feb and they have a couple of pages about a move to 380V DC distribution for data centres with a view to make it suitable for domestic use. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 6 19:11:34 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 17:11:34 -0800 Subject: DC Power Was: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D4ED646.22978.1ECE3DE@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2011 at 8:58, Simon Fryer wrote: > This is starting to get further off topic as this is more a few years > into the future. I was reading the IEEE Spectrum for Feb and they have > a couple of pages about a move to 380V DC distribution for data > centres with a view to make it suitable for domestic use. What with LED lighting for general illumination looming in the future, a move to DC for lighting makes sense. But I see that more as power supply(-ies) operating off the AC line. But a switching supply shouldn't care if it's running from DC or AC. If we move to plug-in electrics, DC distribution might make some sense if it's the right voltage for use by autos. I suspect though, that it's a long way off. Probably about as far off as 40Mb/sec broadband is for my locale. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 19:12:48 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:12:48 -0500 Subject: DC Power Was: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Simon Fryer wrote: > All, > > This is starting to get further off topic as this is more a few years > into the future. I was reading the IEEE Spectrum for Feb and they have > a couple of pages about a move to 380V DC distribution for data > centres with a view to make it suitable for domestic use. I've been hearing about 380VDC for data centers for years now - I have yet to work in a place that is even considering it as a long-term projection (I'm not saying that nobody is using it, but it hasn't trickled down to spaces that cost mere millions that I've seen). -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 6 20:18:36 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 18:18:36 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D4C75.7402.E91223@cclist.sydex.com> <4D4E8703.26026.B745E8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 6, at 2:53 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Are these (R&S) the threaded aviation/military connectors? > > No, those threaded things form a diverse family, and go under the > names of AN3100s, MS connectors, and so forth. > > The old R&S connectors are the big "pin and sleeve" types, with older > models in metal enclosures. The new ones are plastic, color coded, and > in the UK are called "Commando plugs". They are often seen at marinas, > as they are available in water tight enclosures. > >> My HP2116C came with a threaded-and-keyed-housing connector with 3 >> round >> pins in a triangle, one being longer than the others. >> One of a large family of connectors with various housing diameters and >> number of pins, which I've always taken to be primarily an aviation >> and >> military-use family, but never known the name of. > > Originally AN310x, with x signifying straight/angle/chassis/cable > options. The system was formed around 1941 (I think), in order to > standardize the US military's connector situation. > >> I don't know if it was a special order on the HP2116 or standard >> (never seen >> it on other HP equip), but I replaced it rather than try to find the >> mate. > > Those three pinners in various sizes are quite common. Ah-ha, I've found the Amphenol catalog for the MS3100 series and matched up the part number for the 2116 connector. Can't say I'm ready to order the plug, but it's nice to know what it is for future ref. From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:32:37 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:32:37 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: In article <201102041608.p14G80ff036949 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, John Foust writes: > Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on ebay, according to sniping advocates. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:34:07 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:34:07 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > As much as I like DECstuff, I am severely limiting my post-1972ish > DECcollection to very, very few machines. RK07s are on the list. So is > a VAX 9000, but I am not holding my breath. A VAX 9000 will probably appear before a VAXstation 8000 appears for me to check off from my list :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 6 20:35:19 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 21:35:19 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D4F5A67.1010104@neurotica.com> On 2/6/11 9:32 PM, Richard wrote: >> Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? > > Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on > ebay, according to sniping advocates. It is. This time, however, that's my bid. Another classiccmp'er and I are trying to score this one, as about 90% of the auction consists of stuff that both he and I are looking for. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:41:11 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:41:11 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <4D4AEFF8.40002@axeside.co.uk> References: <4D4AEFF8.40002@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4D4AEFF8.40002 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > Hi there! I'm horribly behind on my Classiccmp e-mails - this one > arrived about 5 weeks ago, and I've only just read it. Cool. I was beginning to think noone else was interested. > > I'm starting a project to create a modern printer interface for the > > terminal. [...] > > I think that's an excellent idea. I have a 4006 terminal, and a 4052 > computer, and I might want to use it on either of them. Most likely the > 4052. I believe the printer interface is identical for all storage tube terminals. > I actually have a couple of rolls of paper still in original cardboard > cylinders. Probably long dead, though. I have one roll of NOS paper and a printer with some paper in it. Shelf life according to the catalog was 6 months and another lister has reported that they got an image out of a printer with NOS paper, just not a very good one. > I only have one 4631, not working. At present it is only a museum > piece, but if I eviscerate it to put in a modern printer, it is not even > that. You could house the project in an electronics box if you want to leave your period printer as-is. Nothing in this project requires that you gut a 4631 (or the 4632 video hardcopy unit which is essentially the same printer but with different interface electronics). > In addition, while I could easily afford a modern printer to transplant > into the 4631 case, why should I when I have a perfectly good printer > already, plugged into my PC? As I say, there's no need to do that. I have two units: a 4631 and a 4632. I was planning on housing my replica project in the video hardcopy unit and leaving the 4631 as is. > I'd prefer to take the raster image and save it in a suitable file > format (TIFF?) for putting on a PC and printing on any old printer. > This would make it much more flexible, and I think it would be of > benefit to do so. Yes, that was always part of the plan. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Housing in the 463{1,2} cabinet was just a nice retro factor thing and not the essential part of the project. > Sorry, I lack the hardware expertise. At this point its looking like the whole project may be doable in software with an Arduino Uno microcontroller board. There will be some interface circuitry, but its looking so far like not much is needed in terms of custom hardware. A custom recreation of the 4010 printing option board would be necessary for any storage tube terminals that don't have the printer amplifier. Are your terminals 4010 or 4010-1? If you have the -1 then you already have the amplifier board in your terminal; if not, then we'd need to recreate the amplifier board for you. > But I'll be happy to copy the > relevant bits of the 4050 series manuals for you if this would help. Thanks, I've got the necessary bits from my own manual collection and bitsavers. That covers both the amplifier board in the terminal, the handshaking protocol and the circuitry inside the printer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:42:22 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:42:22 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Shoppa, Tim" writes: > If a graphics file is the end format, it seems to me the easy way out > Is to use a modern PC running Tek 4010/4014 emulation software (anything > >From MS-Kermit to xterm) sniffing the serial traffic and just do > screen dumps from there. The point is to make a hardware compatible printer interface for the existing terminal. >From the perspective you advocate, why bother obtaining the terminal at all? Just run the emulator. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:44:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:44:18 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4D4C3BB8.6000207 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > More to the point, though, rasterising the vector screen is exactly what > those old Tek printers did! They scanned the surface of the tube in a > raster fashion, and read out what they found there. I don't know how > well the analogue circuitry preserved the grey scale - my 4631 hasn't > worked since I got it - but done well, this could do pretty good > staircase elimination. There is no grayscale in a storage tube monitor. There's charge stored on the tube, or there isn't. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:46:33 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:46:33 -0700 Subject: LP37 on epay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Mark Kahrs writes: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Digital-DEC-LP37-1200-LPM-Lines-Per-Minute-Line-Printer-/ 390286316597?pt=COMP_Printers&hash=item5adee09435 > > Virginia ... > And this one's only $100 instead of the $1,165.50 (WTF? You seriously mean with that inflated price you need the damn fifty cents?!?!) from the always ridiculously priced recycledgoods.com -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:48:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:48:54 -0700 Subject: Vintage TTL computer In-Reply-To: <01NXFNQZSD9E0000U7@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01NXFNQZSD9E0000U7@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: In article <01NXFNQZSD9E0000U7 at beyondthepale.ie>, Peter Coghlan writes: > >PS: Using the shorter URL > >http://lh4.ggpht.com/_lkddKjPsPFU/TUswHtRykbI/AAAAAAAAB6k/1ne8IFziAUU > >gives you the full sized picture. > > > > On further investigation, I find that if I open the full URL first, and > then shorten it down to the above, I then get the full sized picture with > no problems. > > However, if I go straight to the short URL above, it fails with the > "Not found" error I mentioned in my previous mail. Google must be doing > something really strange. You need the trailing / -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:49:55 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:49:55 -0700 Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In article <4D4B4862.2010407 at philpem.me.uk>, Philip Pemberton writes: > "You need to sign up for a subscription, and buy messaging points to > send a message to this user!" I've sent messages to people without buying anything. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 20:51:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 21:51:16 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A VAX 9000 will probably appear before a VAXstation 8000 appears for > me to check off from my list :-) I doubt it. It is hard to lose a VAX 9000 in a closet. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:51:36 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:51:36 -0700 Subject: John Boffemmyer IV wants to stay in touch on LinkedIn In-Reply-To: <4D4C3A39.7060109@verizon.net> References: <1124473128.1555426.1296774965187.JavaMail.app@ela4-bed36.prod> <20110203153619.M83914@shell.lmi.net> <4D4B4862.2010407@philpem.me.uk> <4D4C3A39.7060109@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <4D4C3A39.7060109 at verizon.net>, Keith M writes: > Linkedin seems valuable to me. Ditto, although I haven't gotten a job from it yet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 20:56:24 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:56:24 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > A VAX 9000 will probably appear before a VAXstation 8000 appears for > > me to check off from my list :-) > > I doubt it. It is hard to lose a VAX 9000 in a closet. True, but I'm willing to bet that there were an order of magnitude more VAX 9000s sold than VAXstation 8000s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 21:02:09 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 22:02:09 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > True, but I'm willing to bet that there were an order of magnitude > more VAX 9000s sold than VAXstation 8000s. Perhaps, but less than 100 VAX 9000s were made, I think. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 6 21:17:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 20:17:42 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > True, but I'm willing to bet that there were an order of magnitude > > more VAX 9000s sold than VAXstation 8000s. > > Perhaps, but less than 100 VAX 9000s were made, I think. About 10 VS8000s sold sounds about right. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 21:21:32 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 22:21:32 -0500 Subject: VS8000 (was Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay) Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Richard wrote: > About 10 VS8000s sold sounds about right. I saw a couple at DECUS Symposia in the late 1980s - they were fun to play with, even if they didn't have good price/performance numbers. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Sun Feb 6 22:35:16 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 23:35:16 -0500 Subject: Historical Computer Society In-Reply-To: <169E157B-2A65-4A94-9AA9-CC1B52BEEBBC@classiccomputing.com> References: <169E157B-2A65-4A94-9AA9-CC1B52BEEBBC@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <4D4F7684.40808@snarc.net> > After a poor turnout at my place of work, I canceled trying to hold meetings there. Instead, I created a discussion group for the Historical Computer Society. There are a few of us there now, and we are building a grassroots organization that way. This is a group to become a lot like MARCH (http://www.marchclub.org/) We prefer http://www.midatlanticretro.org. > for the greater Atlanta / southeast US region. A few of us had our first meeting in a restaurant yesterday, so I think that is a good start. David, you're probably sick of hearing me repeat this, but I strongly suggest that you follow MARCH's lead and put something about Atlanta or at least "Southeast" in your new group name. That would help * local * people find you, rather than people thinking, "Looks like an interesting group .... oh wait they're only in some place far away from me." From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Feb 6 23:16:51 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 21:16:51 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: <4D4EB235.26352.1600196@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20110206130645.D87298@shell.lmi.net> <4D4EB235.26352.1600196@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8dd16be7aef2090da95f5b2f3d6eb4e1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 6, at 2:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Feb 2011 at 13:07, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> But who can name a machine with the 3.25" disks that Dysan bet the >> company on? > > Repeat 325 times: > > But if at first he minds his hits, > And drinks Champaigne among the wits, > Five deep he toasts the towering lasses, > Repeats yon verse wrote on glasses: > Is in the chair, prescribes the law, > And lies with those he never saw. Well, I found the source (Chameleon/Prior), and I know you guys have mentioned the 3.25" fiasco before, but my limited poetic interpretation and association skills are failing me here. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 6 23:37:29 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 21:37:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: <8dd16be7aef2090da95f5b2f3d6eb4e1@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <20110206130645.D87298@shell.lmi.net> <4D4EB235.26352.1600196@cclist.sydex.com> <8dd16be7aef2090da95f5b2f3d6eb4e1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <20110206213401.L87298@shell.lmi.net> > >> But who can name a machine with the 3.25" disks that Dysan bet the > >> company on? > > Repeat 325 times: > > But if at first he minds his hits, > > And drinks Champaigne among the wits, > > Five deep he toasts the towering lasses, > > Repeats yon verse wrote on glasses: > > Is in the chair, prescribes the law, > > And lies with those he never saw. On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, I found the source (Chameleon/Prior), and I know you guys have > mentioned the 3.25" fiasco before, but my limited poetic interpretation > and association skills are failing me here. Although there was a big push, almost successfully making most MAJOR programs available on 3.25", and trying to get "everybody" to go to 3.25, Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine that I know of that ever released a new model with a 3.25" drive. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Feb 6 23:43:42 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 21:43:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: VS8000 (was Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Richard wrote: >> About 10 VS8000s sold sounds about right. > > I saw a couple at DECUS Symposia in the late 1980s - they were fun to > play with, even if they didn't have good price/performance numbers. A previous employer had two "MicroVAX 8000s"; we got them without the graphics hardware. One was supplied to us by DEC, for whom we did some VAXBI work. We also had a couple of 3rd party interfaces we designed. The other we bought from E&S when they were getting out of the business. Nice little boxes. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Feb 6 23:45:28 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 23:45:28 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: , <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk>, Message-ID: Has it not occurred to anybody to take the 4014 serial drawing stream as the source? There are only a few commands there. I used it to plot roller coasters in a commercial program, COASTER! Embedding the tek file was much smaller than including 3d graphics, I just plotted tek 4010 to the screen. Randy > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 19:44:18 -0700 > > > In article <4D4C3BB8.6000207 at axeside.co.uk>, > Philip Belben writes: > > > More to the point, though, rasterising the vector screen is exactly what > > those old Tek printers did! They scanned the surface of the tube in a > > raster fashion, and read out what they found there. I don't know how > > well the analogue circuitry preserved the grey scale - my 4631 hasn't > > worked since I got it - but done well, this could do pretty good > > staircase elimination. > > There is no grayscale in a storage tube monitor. There's charge > stored on the tube, or there isn't. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 6 23:53:34 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 00:53:34 -0500 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: References: <4D4D8CAF.80408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <201102070053.34254.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday, February 05, 2011, William Donzelli wrote: > hammer pain, here. A fair number of electricians actually test wires > with their fingers. It is mostly just a very weird sensation. Get > used to it, respect it, and it is not really an issue. Indeed. After making sure i'm well insulated, I like to brush the terminals of the circuit I'm working with the a knuckle, to make sure it's de-energized. My fingers are very unlikely to fail at telling me if there's some voltage there... Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 7 00:15:40 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 22:15:40 -0800 Subject: CP/M based Digitech network analyzer available In-Reply-To: <20110206213401.L87298@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20110206130645.D87298@shell.lmi.net> <4D4EB235.26352.1600196@cclist.sydex.com> <8dd16be7aef2090da95f5b2f3d6eb4e1@cs.ubc.ca> <20110206213401.L87298@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 6, at 9:37 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> But who can name a machine with the 3.25" disks that Dysan bet the >>>> company on? >>> Repeat 325 times: >>> But if at first he minds his hits, >>> And drinks Champaigne among the wits, >>> Five deep he toasts the towering lasses, >>> Repeats yon verse wrote on glasses: >>> Is in the chair, prescribes the law, >>> And lies with those he never saw. > > On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Well, I found the source (Chameleon/Prior), and I know you guys have >> mentioned the 3.25" fiasco before, but my limited poetic >> interpretation >> and association skills are failing me here. > > Although there was a big push, almost successfully making most MAJOR > programs available on 3.25", and trying to get "everybody" to go to > 3.25, > Seequa Chameleon 325 was the only machine that I know of that ever > released a new model with a 3.25" drive. > Ah.. the name ..and there I was trying to interpret some meaning in the poem that commented on the story of the drive. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Feb 7 00:53:41 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 22:53:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gray scale in storage tube, was Re: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <425235.20703.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 2/6/11, Richard wrote: > There is no grayscale in a storage tube monitor.? > There's charge stored on the tube, or there isn't. This may be the case for the Tektronix storage tubes, but storage tubes that can handle grayscal have been made, e.g., the Hughes Tonotron. It could capture a television image. --Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 7 00:56:27 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 22:56:27 -0800 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <201102070053.34254.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , , <201102070053.34254.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4D4F271B.8192.328A638@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2011 at 0:53, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Indeed. After making sure i'm well insulated, I like to brush the > terminals of the circuit I'm working with the a knuckle, to make sure > it's de-energized. My fingers are very unlikely to fail at telling me > if there's some voltage there... That's not even in the "weird" ballpark. I knew a fellow once who could estimate the voltage with a fair degree of accuracy across the terminals of a used 9V PP3 "transistor radio" battery by licking the terminals. I wonder whatever happened to him. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 7 02:19:11 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 00:19:11 -0800 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> On 2/6/2011 6:32 PM, Richard wrote: > In article<201102041608.p14G80ff036949 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, > John Foust writes: > >> Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? > Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on > ebay, according to sniping advocates. Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost 7.99, but cost 16 for no reason. Jim Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.50 Feb-05-11 16:01:37 PST Member Id: 1971stephens ( 421Feedback score is 100 to 499) US $15.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.00 Feb-05-11 16:01:23 PST ( 421 ) US $14.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $14.00 Feb-05-11 16:01:11 PST ( 421 ) US $13.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $13.00 Feb-05-11 16:00:17 PST ( 421 ) US $12.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $12.00 Feb-05-11 15:59:56 PST ( 421 ) US $11.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $11.00 Feb-02-11 18:51:47 PST ( 421 ) US $10.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $9.50 Feb-02-11 18:51:29 PST ( 421 ) US $9.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $8.50 Feb-02-11 18:51:16 PST ( 421 ) US $7.99 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST Starting Price US $7.99 Jan-29-11 19:39:42 PST From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 7 02:46:02 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 00:46:02 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> References: <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <477875B3F92.0000004Cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> **THANK YOU** Sniping is the *only* way I ever bid, because of stuff like this. Bidding up only cost you money-- Now I don't have to feel like I have keep justifying why we do this. And yes, I do bid manually. Jeff > -----Original Message----- > From: jws at jwsss.com > Sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 00:19:11 -0800 > To: > Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay > > > > On 2/6/2011 6:32 PM, Richard wrote: >> In article<201102041608.p14G80ff036949 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, >> John Foust writes: >> >>> Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? >> Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on >> ebay, according to sniping advocates. > Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a > situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be > in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost > 7.99, but cost 16 for no reason. > Jim > > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.50 > Feb-05-11 16:01:37 PST > Member Id: 1971stephens ( 421Feedback score is 100 to 499) US $15.00 > Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.00 > Feb-05-11 16:01:23 PST > ( 421 ) US $14.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $14.00 > Feb-05-11 16:01:11 PST > ( 421 ) US $13.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $13.00 > Feb-05-11 16:00:17 PST > ( 421 ) US $12.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $12.00 > Feb-05-11 15:59:56 PST > ( 421 ) US $11.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $11.00 > Feb-02-11 18:51:47 PST > ( 421 ) US $10.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $9.50 > Feb-02-11 18:51:29 PST > ( 421 ) US $9.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $8.50 > Feb-02-11 18:51:16 PST > ( 421 ) US $7.99 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Starting Price US $7.99 Jan-29-11 19:39:42 PST ____________________________________________________________ Publish your photos in seconds for FREE TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if4 From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Feb 7 03:01:14 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 10:01:14 +0100 Subject: VS8000 (was Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110207090114.GA2974@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Feb 06, 2011 at 09:43:42PM -0800, Roger Ivie wrote: > Nice little boxes. Does CHM have one? /P From pinball at telus.net Sat Feb 5 22:59:47 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 20:59:47 -0800 Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... In-Reply-To: <4D4E0EFE.9030808@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D4E036F.1010800@philpem.me.uk> <4D4E0EFE.9030808@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D4E2AC3.1020104@telus.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 06/02/11 02:42, Teo Zenios wrote: >> What did it do when you had a video card and keyboard installed? Was >> there a beep code? > > Black screen, no beeps. I get the same POST code sequence with the VGA > card in as I do without it. > >> The Dallas chip is probably dead (battery), have you tried reworking it >> with a coin cell? > > Not yet -- the chip isn't that old, I'd have thought it would still be > good... > > Also, the board packed in after I cleared some corrosion (from an old, > leaky nicad battery) from the PCB and replaced the old dual-wipe RTC > chip socket with an Augat turned-pin socket. Now the board is DOA... > When you removed the old socket did you carefully examine the legs of the pins to see if you accidentally pulled out any feed through tubes? What did you do to clean off the corrosion? I hope you used a mild acid such as white vinegar to neutralize the alkaline (base) leakage then rinse off with water... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sun Feb 6 12:06:23 2011 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 19:06:23 +0100 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: References: <001801cbadce$5e8eb4b0$1bac1e10$@ntlworld.com> from, "Rob Jarratt" at Jan 6, 11 06:20:14 pm , <01b901cbc0ca$bf43f5e0$3dcbe1a0$@ntlworld.com>, <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D4EE31F.4050409@acc.umu.se> dwight elvey wrote: > > > >> From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com >> > ---SNIP--- > >> I was checking the capacitors in-circuit and understand that this is not >> correct. >> >> However, I would have thought that a 0 ohm measurement in-circuit would >> indicate a shorted capacitor because there would surely not be any point >> designing a circuit where both ends of the capacitor are connected together? >> That capacitor also measured differently on a working board so it was >> clearly suspect. However when I de-soldered it, it turned out to be open >> circuit. The resistance in-circuit was not absolutely 0 though, although it >> had seemed negligibly close, so it must have been the surrounding load as >> has been suggested to me. >> >> Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would an absolutely 0 >> ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a shorted cap for the reason I >> suggest above? >> >> Thanks >> >> Rob >> >> > > Hi Rob > The 0 ohms indicates a short but doesn't tell you what is shorted. > It could be the cap you are measuring at or one half way > across the board. It may not even be a cap since there are > many ICs also across the power lines. > I have a method that works quite well at finding such shorts > but requires a uV meter or a good 5 digit meter and a bench > power supply that can be set on current limit. > Alternate methods use a bench supply set on current limit > and hunt around with ones funger or take a picture in > the dark without the flash. > Also, there is that thermal paper. > The hunt and peck method of lifting one lead of each > part until you find the shorted one. > Some have success with a two lead ohm meter but > I've not seen this work well. A 4 lead has a better > chance. > Dwight > > I once saw an instrument that measured the potential between two points while the card was powered by a current limited supply. The twist is that it didn't presented the voltage, it made a tone which pitch got higher the lower the voltage difference between the probes was. That way you never needed to look at an instrument. This instrument was used by a contract manufacturer on a lot of faulty cards and it didn't damage the circuits. It was very quick. /G?ran From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie Sun Feb 6 12:27:26 2011 From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 18:27:26 +0000 (WET) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 Message-ID: <01NXII9SEBTY000116@beyondthepale.ie> > >> SPX graphics adapter which was plugged into a very nice VR297 monitor (Sony >> Trinitron). I plugged out the monitor cable from the back of the Vaxstation >> for some reason. When I plugged it back in I felt a zap. On investigating, >> the earth pin in the IEC plug going into the monitor didn't seem to be >> making proper contact for some reason. The monitor didn't mind a bit but one > >I've neve seen that happen. Normally it's due to a wire having fallen off >in one of the connectors. Of course tend to prefer the rewirable IEC >sockets so I can check the wiring and make sure the contacts aren't bent >open/ > After unplugging and reinserting the plug (line socket?) once, I couldn't get it to fail to make contact again. The connector was moulded but it was possible to squeeze the contacts by inserting a small flat screwdriver between the contact and the body. I decided it was better to discard the lead and use another. (I fitted a rewirable IEC connector on the vacuum cleaners lead after the cable failed near the original moulded connector. The new connectors body is too flexible and the rubber strain rellef sleeve regularly works free from it...) > >> I traced the connections on the graphics card and found the RGB outputs came >> directly out of a large, probably expensive, difficult to replace and rare >> looking BT459 RAMDAC :-( > >I asuem that's a Brooktree part from the number. They are not mormally >custom chiups, you even find them (although probably not the right one) >on old VGA cards. > Yes, it's a Brooktree part. I don't come across that many old VGA cards and any that I have come across don't use it. If anybody has an old card with a BT459 that they are willing to give/sell me, I would have a go at changing it. A quick tally shows it to have 132 pins but it looks like they are 0.1in spaced so I should have a realistic chance of dealing with it. Maybe I should put this in another posting as the people with large stashes of BT459s and think this is an off-topic discussion about mains voltages might not realise we have drifted back on topic again :-) > >There is a locking assembly avaialble, but few manufacturers seem to use >it. And it doesn;t work with moulded scokets (see above ;-)). > I've seen a simple wire retaining mechanism (on Cisco 1U high kit I think) which seems to do the job and works with almost any leads, moulded or not. However, I'd prefer something that just felt a bit more secure without needing this extra mechanism. > >What mains connector do you prefer? > Given that almost all the kit I use has IEC connectors, I don't really have any I prefer, just ones I don't like that much :-) I once bought variable bench power supply at a ham rally for a very small price. The obvious snag was that it didn't have a mains lead and the mains input connector was an oblong thing a little flatter than an IEC chassis mounted connector. I removed the original connector, made the hole a little larger and fitted a new IEC connector. There's no shortage of IEC leads and I don't want to end up needing a selection of different power leads for different items. Sometimes it's easier to put up with something I'm not than keen on. Even if they don't feel that secure, I can't argue with the sheer numbers in use and the small number of reported problems with them. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jonas at otter.se Sun Feb 6 13:14:02 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:14:02 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <002601cbc632$04405320$0cc0f960$@otter.se> > > I am not that surprised given that at some time (in the past 20 years?) ES > > lampholders appear to have become legal in the UK (I'm sure they never > used > > Weren't they? I am pretty sure I've seen reference to them in quite old > (1950s) electrical engineering books over here. Maybe not used on > domestic installations, thohhg > > > to be) and they have a large _easily_touched_ metal part that could > randomly > > be connected to live or neutral (I suspect that if Tony found himself having Not easily touched with the bulb in place, I hope? Over here (Sweden) all bulbs are ES and all holders have an insulating exterior. If you remove the bulb and poke your finger inside with the holder live, you may well get a shock, since mains sockets aren't polarised here. Most people don't usually do that however, not even the cognitively challenged. The bulbs don't wobble about in an ES holder, IIRC they do in a bayonet holder. The French use bayonet holders and that IMO says a lot about that type of holder. Jonas From jonas at otter.se Sun Feb 6 13:42:02 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:42:02 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <002801cbc635$ed974030$c8c5c090$@otter.se> > > I will have to find mine... From what I remember, it's a yellow cover and > titled 'High Quality Sound Reprodcution'. It includes (I think it this > order) the 5-20 (EF86, ECC83, 2*EL34, GZ32), preamp for the 5-20 > (3*EF86), FM tuner (I can't remember the full line-up, I am pretty sure > the IF amplifiers are EF41s, the detector an EB91 with an EM80 tuning > indicator), the pre-amps for the 5-10 (EF86) and the 5-10 itself (EF86, > ECC83, 2*EL84, EZ81), > If you could find it and give me details of it, I can start looking. That would be much appreciated. > There were of coruse other FM tuners for the home constructor at one > time, Some easier to align than others... > > I also have the GEC book on audio amplifiers. The _low power_ one is the > Williamson (15W, 2*KT66 in the output stage). I think the highest power > amplifier schematic in that book gives 1.1kW RMS into the speakers... > *Drool* Another book I shall have to try and find... Someday I must get round to building a valve amplifier. Jonas From jonas at otter.se Sun Feb 6 14:19:37 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 21:19:37 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <002d01cbc63b$2d276e00$87764a00$@otter.se> > > Depends on the 'take over' :-) It certianly says 'Made in Sweden' on th > front and on the rating plate, > Asko took over Cylinda from ASEA or ABB, don't remember if it was before or after the ASEA-Brown Boveri merger. Maybe they drop the Cylinda part overseas for marketing reasons or something. > > I have always thought that the UK system was much more sensible. Not > only > > are all plugs and sockets earthed, fused and switched, but they are also > > I am not sure what sockets are still permitted over here, but the > standard one is the 13A plug to BS1363, which is indeed earthed, > polaraised, and cotnains a cartridge fuse. > I wouldn't know, but I certainly remember that my Uncle's house in Sleaford had the old 3-pin round pin polarised and earthed sockets in the late 60s or early 70s, all of them switched IIRC, and IIRC there were no two-pin sockets at all. And the electrical installation must have been quite a few years old then. > Do socket outlets have to be switched? I would never fit one that isn't, > but I thoguth unswitched ones were still available. No switched sockets at all here, unfortunately, possibly with the exception of sockets for electric irons in communal laundries in blocks of flats etc. And coffee makers in workplaces etc are always connected through a timer, since there have been fires caused by coffee makers boiling dry and the protection device having failed closed-circuit. It is probably illegal to run a coffee maker without a timer in a workplace. > > > polarised so it is impossible to switch live and neutral (provided the > > electrician who installed them knew what he was doing). The Swedish > plugs > > Sensible people check to make sure ;-). There are plenty of so-called > 'electricians' who get this wrong. > I can well believe so. Many years ago I witnessed a very experienced electrician getting the hair dryer treatment from his boss because he had used a green/yellow piece of wire for a phase connection in an industrial installation. Here unfortunately there is no way of knowing which wire is live on the appliance, since the plug can be connected either way round. > I > beleive that some countries (Germnany?) oftn have a pair of 16A socket > outlets protected by a single 32A breaker. And you could plug a small > appliance in to osme of those sockets with no other protecive devices in > the circuit, even if the flexible cable to the devive is rated at 3A, > say. No thanks! > [...] Sockets and lighting circuits here are usually protected by a 10A fuse in the switchboard. Modern switchboards have miniature breakers for each circuit, the kind with both a magnetic and a thermal trip. Older installations only have a fuse. If you connect a shaver or something to the socket and the shaver shorts out, I suppose it is possible that the insulation on the shaver cable might melt before the fuse blew (shavers usually have a 0.5 mm2 cable). > > But more seriosuly, I feel I might well die from electrocution. After all > I work on mains-powered stuff most days and something could go wrong. > But > this doens;t mean I am not going to be sensible about it and use RCDs etc > if I think they could help. > Actually it might not be a bad way to go provided the voltage and current were high enough. > > I don't intend to bring it about by electrocution in the bathroom. And of > > course the RCD goes on the end of the lead outside the bathroom. I would > > want one even in a dedicated darkroom. > > I have a dedicated darkroom (it's a little hard treating a DeVere 504 > enlarger as a temporary device :-)), but I still have (and want) an RCD > on the incoming mains to it. > Sadly I only have a 35mm enlarger, I am hoping to modify it to take 6x6 negatives. But I also have quite a few old 6x9 negatives which would be nice to print. Happily for me, enlargers are cheap second-hand nowadays :-) (as is old audio gear, Revox A77s or B77s can be had for very reasonable prices for example. I have a very nice Marantz amplifier which I got cheap, and a Technics FM tuner which probably weighs nearly as much as the BC-312 shortwave receiver I used to have). Jonas From bub7734 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 19:57:43 2011 From: bub7734 at yahoo.com (Scott G Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:57:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: FREE in Minneapolis: RL02 drive for repair or parts Message-ID: <730952.11756.qm@web111408.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I've an RL02 drive that I need to dispose of. It mostly works, but has occasional read errors--possibly dirty heads or adjustments are needed. It is missing the two cable connectors on the back (I needed those), and the rack rails (never had those). The drive is free to anyone for pick-up in Minneapolis. And while on the RL02 subject, I'm looking for two cabinet kits for RL02 controllers. e.g. CK-RLV12 type bulkhead connectors. Does anyone have these for sale or trade? Cheers, -scott From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Feb 7 07:51:20 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 05:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: VS8000 (was Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay) In-Reply-To: <20110207090114.GA2974@Update.UU.SE> References: <20110207090114.GA2974@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 06, 2011 at 09:43:42PM -0800, Roger Ivie wrote: >> Nice little boxes. > > Does CHM have one? I have no clue. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 7 08:59:41 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 09:59:41 -0500 Subject: VS8000 Message-ID: Pontus writes: > On Sun, Feb 06, 2011 at 09:43:42PM -0800, Roger Ivie wrote: >> Nice little boxes. >Does CHM have one? Wouldn't it be better for CHM to concentrate on the truly innovative boxes that re-invented computation as we know it or defined the industry for extended periods, rather than the oddball historical footnotes? I mean as a DEC fan I understand the sweetness of a VS8000 as the odd man out (a personal workstation with BI!), but it hardly seems important in painting the broad strokes of the industry. Heck, BI in itself is nothing more than an oddball historical footnote looking backwards, I mean, there was very little third-party stuff Made for BI (present company excepted). You wouldn't know it by the front page of the Digital Review at the time! Oh Charlie Matco loved the leaks. Tim. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 7 09:57:14 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 08:57:14 -0700 Subject: OT: high powered amps In-Reply-To: <002801cbc635$ed974030$c8c5c090$@otter.se> References: <002801cbc635$ed974030$c8c5c090$@otter.se> Message-ID: <4D50165A.9080502@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/6/2011 12:42 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: >> >> I will have to find mine... From what I remember, it's a yellow cover and >> titled 'High Quality Sound Reprodcution'. It includes (I think it this >> order) the 5-20 (EF86, ECC83, 2*EL34, GZ32), preamp for the 5-20 >> (3*EF86), FM tuner (I can't remember the full line-up, I am pretty sure >> the IF amplifiers are EF41s, the detector an EB91 with an EM80 tuning >> indicator), the pre-amps for the 5-10 (EF86) and the 5-10 itself (EF86, >> ECC83, 2*EL84, EZ81), >> > > If you could find it and give me details of it, I can start looking. That > would be much appreciated. > >> There were of coruse other FM tuners for the home constructor at one >> time, Some easier to align than others... >> >> I also have the GEC book on audio amplifiers. The _low power_ one is the >> Williamson (15W, 2*KT66 in the output stage). I think the highest power >> amplifier schematic in that book gives 1.1kW RMS into the speakers... >> > > *Drool* > Another book I shall have to try and find... > Someday I must get round to building a valve amplifier. Try here for the on line version. http://www.tubebooks.org/ > Jonas > Ben. PS. A GM-70 ( $90 ) might substitute for V1505. From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Feb 7 10:33:42 2011 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:33:42 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> On 2/7/2011 3:19 AM, jim s wrote: > Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a > situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be > in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost 7.99, > but cost 16 for no reason. > Jim I've got no problem with sniping, manually, service, with your own software, whatever. Ebay sets the framework, and everything done legally within that framework is fine with me. Some auction places automatically extend the bidding time if a bid comes in last-minute, and I think this makes sense. Certainly, real physical auctions do this. Maybe you can explain why you think that the item "cost 16 for no reason?" Your maximum bid was $14.50(or $15 for 1971stephens, if that's you). You didn't want to pay more than $14.50 for it, right? 1971stephens maximum bid was $15.00. Mr. 5-score's maximum bid was $15.50. Sure, he changed his maximum bid at one dollar increments, and he's not a savvy ebayer yet. That's why we call them newbies. Even with sniping, if you set your real maximum bid to $14.50, you still would have lost. ESPECIALLY when you are not able to watch the auction, you should have bid real your maximum. If you wanted the item, and would have paid $16.00 for it, then you should have bid $16. The item was won by Mr. 5-score for $15.50 exactly and precisely because he had the maximum bid at the end of the auction. Can you please explain why the item should have went for $7.99 in the presence of higher bids at the end of the auction? Keith > > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.50 > Feb-05-11 16:01:37 PST > Member Id: 1971stephens ( 421Feedback score is 100 to 499) US $15.00 > Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $15.00 > Feb-05-11 16:01:23 PST > ( 421 ) US $14.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $14.00 > Feb-05-11 16:01:11 PST > ( 421 ) US $13.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $13.00 > Feb-05-11 16:00:17 PST > ( 421 ) US $12.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $12.00 > Feb-05-11 15:59:56 PST > ( 421 ) US $11.50 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $11.00 > Feb-02-11 18:51:47 PST > ( 421 ) US $10.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $9.50 > Feb-02-11 18:51:29 PST > ( 421 ) US $9.00 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Member Id: y***m ( 5 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days) US $8.50 > Feb-02-11 18:51:16 PST > ( 421 ) US $7.99 Feb-01-11 17:53:31 PST > Starting Price US $7.99 Jan-29-11 19:39:42 PST From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 10:48:00 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:48:00 -0500 Subject: VS8000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I mean as a DEC fan I understand the sweetness of a VS8000 as the > odd man out (a personal workstation with BI!), but it hardly seems > important in painting the broad strokes of the industry. No argument from me. > Heck, BI in itself is nothing more than an oddball historical footnote > looking backwards, I mean, there was very little third-party stuff > Made for BI (present company excepted). Having been through the process of developing a 3rd-party BI product (COMBOARD-BI), I am not shocked that few vendors felt the commercial need to jump through all the hoops. In our case, we migrated our products to the BI bus because our customers were upgrading their hardware. In the end, I'm not sure we never recouped our investment (hardware was only a portion of the total system cost), but we did get the product to market and we did sell a few. We still sold several times as many boards for Qbus machines as for BI machines, unsurprising given the ratio of the two types of machines out in the real world. > You wouldn't know it by the front page of the > Digital Review at the time! Oh Charlie Matco loved the leaks. There certainly was a lot of noise in the trade rags - the last roar of a dying species, no doubt -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 10:46:14 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 11:46:14 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> Message-ID: Yay! Its the sniping thread! -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 7 10:55:03 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:55:03 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D5023E7.501@neurotica.com> On 2/7/11 11:46 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Yay! Its the sniping thread! I've missed it; it makes for great bedtime reading. It must've been what, eight or ten months? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 11:11:00 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 09:11:00 -0800 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:46 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > Yay! Its the sniping thread! > > -- > Will What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 7 11:25:02 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 10:25:02 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D502AEE.1010508@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/7/2011 10:11 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:46 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Yay! Its the sniping thread! >> >> -- >> Will > > What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective > to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? 220V will kill the sniper quicker. I think sniping is IMMORAL and ILLEGAL regardless of what ebay thinks. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 12:58:54 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 11:58:54 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4D4FAAFF.4010101 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > Here is why I snipe, Richard. I don't care. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 13:00:05 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 12:00:05 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: , <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk>, Message-ID: In article , Randy Dawson writes: > Has it not occurred to anybody to take the 4014 serial drawing stream as the source? Yes; that's not the point. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 13:01:34 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 12:01:34 -0700 Subject: VS8000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Shoppa, Tim" writes: > Pontus writes: > > On Sun, Feb 06, 2011 at 09:43:42PM -0800, Roger Ivie wrote: > >> Nice little boxes. > >Does CHM have one? > > Wouldn't it be better for CHM to concentrate on the truly innovative > boxes that re-invented computation as we know it or defined the > industry for extended periods, rather than the oddball historical > footnotes? Yes. I think this is what they do. If they were given a VS8000, it wouldn't be discarded, but they wouldn't spend time creating an exhibit around it either. It would go into the catalog and be available if anyone wants to study it, but probably noone would. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 13:03:50 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 12:03:50 -0700 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <477875B3F92.0000004Cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <477875B3F92.0000004Cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: ...and neither does bidding straight up and early. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Feb 7 14:03:10 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 12:03:10 -0800 Subject: Corvus Mac Disks... In-Reply-To: <4D4EE416.8060600@atarimuseum.com> References: <673767.47075.qm@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4D4E43EF.5010007@atarimuseum.com> <4D4EE416.8060600@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: From: Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 10:11 AM Christian Corti wrote: >> On Sun, 6 Feb 2011, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >>> 7.5.3 and viola! I was able to read the diskettes (most).... One >> Why not guitar or piano? ;-) > Arrrrgggggggg......... okay, you got me, Voila! Though Piano does sound > better ;-) Softly, now! Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Feb 7 14:22:35 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 12:22:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: VS8000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Heck, BI in itself is nothing more than an oddball historical footnote > looking backwards, I mean, there was very little third-party stuff > Made for BI (present company excepted). During development of VAXBI, we were told (by the folks working on it) that it was A) not going to be VAX-specific (DEC was moving MIPSward at the time) and B) would be open. We were a bit startled when it was announced as "VAXBI". -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 7 14:35:53 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:35:53 -0000 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4D502AEE.1010508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> <4D502AEE.1010508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <041901cbc706$9ec31f70$dc495e50$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben > Sent: 07 February 2011 17:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay > > On 2/7/2011 10:11 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > > On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:46 AM, William Donzelli > wrote: > >> Yay! Its the sniping thread! > >> > >> -- > >> Will > > > > What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective > > to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? > > 220V will kill the sniper quicker. > I think sniping is IMMORAL and ILLEGAL regardless of what ebay thinks. The morality of sniping is somewhat subjective and certainly something that can be legitimately debated. Personally I dislike it but find that I have to do it (manually) to stand a chance. I am interested though in why you think it is illegal; that should be a more black and white matter, either it is or it isn't. Of course the legality or otherwise will also depend on which country you are in, so it would be interesting to know on what basis you think it is illegal and which country your interpretation of the law applies to. It would be surprising though to find that eBay has built an illegal service, I am sure that this would by now have attracted the attention of the legal authorities of the relevant countries (perhaps it has, I don't know). Regards Rob From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 14:51:26 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 13:51:26 -0700 Subject: minor improvements to bitsavers RSS feed Message-ID: I updated the bitsavers RSS feed with the following improvements: - filenames with special characters (#, %, &) are now properly encoded in their URLs - HTTP HEAD used to obtain last MIME content type, file size and last modification date for the RSS items. This means that the published date on the RSS item matches the last modification date on bitsavers and not the time the cron job generated the RSS feed. - files mentioned in Whatsnew.txt that don't exist on the server are not published in the RSS feed Due to the change in the pubDate for each item, you may need to unsubscribe and then resubscribe to the RSS feed for your RSS reader to make sense of it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:27:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:27:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <002801cbc635$ed974030$c8c5c090$@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 6, 11 08:42:02 pm Message-ID: > [Mullard Book] > If you could find it and give me details of it, I can start looking. That > would be much appreciated. I will keep looking for it, but it's unlikely I'll find it anytime soon. What I can remembr is the title ('High Quality Sound Reproduction'), the fact that it was published by Mullard (==Philips, of course) and it dates from about the time of the introduction of the EL34. > > > There were of coruse other FM tuners for the home constructor at one > > time, Some easier to align than others... > > > > I also have the GEC book on audio amplifiers. The _low power_ one is the > > Williamson (15W, 2*KT66 in the output stage). I think the highest power > > amplifier schematic in that book gives 1.1kW RMS into the speakers... > > > > *Drool* > Another book I shall have to try and find... No that one I could find. It's called 'An Approach to Audio Frequency Amplifier Design' and claims to be 'A Publication of the General Electric Co Ltd of England', datead 1957. It is not a construcitonal book like the Mullard one, there are no chassis layouts or anthring like that. But there are plenty of schematics, thory, etc. Designs include : A 5W junior amplifier 14W Ultra-Linear amplifier (this is the 912-Plus) 14W DC/AC (mains) amplifier Williamson KT88 30W Ultra-Linear amplifier KT55 25W DC/AC (amins) amplifier KT88 50W Ultra-Linear amplifier (the '88-50') KT55 50W Ultra-Linear amplifier KT88 100W Fixed-bias amplifier DA42 175W amplifier DA42 200W amplifier DA100 115-175W Class AB1 amplifier DA100 200-270W AB2 amplifier V1505 300-450W Class AB1 amplifier (this used KT66s in the _driver_ stage) V1505 600-1100W AB2 amplifier A couple of pre-amplifers used the Z729 (which iIRC is an EF86) 400W multiple pair amplifier (this has 10 KT88s in parallel push-pull!) Drool on! > Someday I must get round to building a valve amplifier. I must get round to buildign a secodn Williamson. A friend of mine had one and wanted to get a stereo pair but he never found a second one. He gave it to me in exachnage for repairs to his guitar amp. He also gave be some boxes of 'junk' which incuded a pair of new KT66s, other valves, valvholders, etc _and the Williamson mains and output transformers. In other words he'd got the hard to find bits to make his pair... His loss.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:02:39 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:02:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <01NXII9SEBTY000116@beyondthepale.ie> from "Peter Coghlan" at Feb 6, 11 06:27:26 pm Message-ID: > After unplugging and reinserting the plug (line socket?) once, I couldn't get > it to fail to make contact again. The connector was moulded but it was possible This is mildly worrying int that it means that I shoudl check for earth continuity every time I unplug/pulg in an IEC connector. > to squeeze the contacts by inserting a small flat screwdriver between the > contact and the body. I decided it was better to discard the lead and use > another. I susepct I;'d just have replaced the IEC connector..... > > (I fitted a rewirable IEC connector on the vacuum cleaners lead after the cable > failed near the original moulded connector. The new connectors body is too > flexible and the rubber strain rellef sleeve regularly works free from it...) Odd, the reqireable IEC socets that I've used have very rigid plastic boddies. Still, better for the sleed to pull out than the cable to come loose from the cord grip. And I've seen plenty of moulded IEC connectors where the outer cable sheath has pulled free fo the moulding. Qutie whatr is acting as a strain releif then I don't know :-( > > > > >> I traced the connections on the graphics card and found the RGB outputs came > >> directly out of a large, probably expensive, difficult to replace and rare > >> looking BT459 RAMDAC :-( > > > >I asuem that's a Brooktree part from the number. They are not mormally > >custom chiups, you even find them (although probably not the right one) > >on old VGA cards. > > > > Yes, it's a Brooktree part. I don't come across that many old VGA cards and > any that I have come across don't use it. If anybody has an old card with > a BT459 that they are willing to give/sell me, I would have a go at changing > it. A quick tally shows it to have 132 pins but it looks like they are 0.1in > spaced so I should have a realistic chance of dealing with it. Presumably a PGQ package. I assume it's not socketed though. I really do dislike conected large/expesnive/custom chips directly to external connectors. It's a lot easier to replace a simple buffer IC than a microcontroller, a CPLD or RAMDAC. This is one of the many things I dislike about Useless Serial Botch, the port connector invariably goes to some complex IC. Have you tried searching for that CI in datasheetarchive or similar? You migth be able to get a data sheet and thus see what (if anything) is odd about it. > >What mains connector do you prefer? > > > > Given that almost all the kit I use has IEC connectors, I don't really have > any I prefer, just ones I don't like that much :-) > > I once bought variable bench power supply at a ham rally for a very small > price. The obvious snag was that it didn't have a mains lead and the mains > input connector was an oblong thing a little flatter than an IEC chassis > mounted connector. I removed the original connector, made the hole a little Did it have 3 cylinderical pins? That connector was common on US equipment in the last 60's/early 70's --for example on early HP9100s. Findign calbes to fit it is non-trivial. Doing what you did and replacing the conenctor with an IEC one is the obvious workaround. but sometimes I want to keep thing as original as possible. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:07:12 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:07:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <002601cbc632$04405320$0cc0f960$@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 6, 11 08:14:02 pm Message-ID: [ES lampholders and live parts] > Not easily touched with the bulb in place, I hope? Over here (Sweden) all That does depend on the design of lampholder. > bulbs are ES and all holders have an insulating exterior. If you remove the Ove rhere were do get brass-cased lampholders, and Iv'e seen both ES and BC ones. In the former case, the housing was insulated from the lamp cap, of course. I beleive the regulatuons require the cassing of such lampholders to be earthed (certainly all the reputable makes hve earth terminals, and I always use them). However, the cap of a BC bulb fdoes not ahve to be earthed if it's used fitted in an insualted lampholder > The bulbs don't wobble about in an ES holder, IIRC they do in a bayonet True, but that is not a major problem... > holder. The French use bayonet holders and that IMO says a lot about that > type of holder. Hmmm... All I will say is that I maintained my father's Citroen car for 13 years. I therefore have a great love of (some) French engineering. IIRC the Pascaline was French.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:40:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:40:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <002d01cbc63b$2d276e00$87764a00$@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Feb 6, 11 09:19:37 pm Message-ID: > No switched sockets at all here, unfortunately, possibly with the exception If you live in a country where switched sockets are uncommon, I would recommnend making up a mains lead witha double-pole switch (and if you like a neon indictator and fuse/breaker) in the middle of it. Use that when powering up dismantled devices on your workbench. It's a lot safer to use that switch that the one i nthe unt (which may well have live terminals that are easy to touch when flipping it) and a lot easier and kinder ot the conenctors than plugging and unplugging one of the connectors. > I can well believe so. Many years ago I witnessed a very experienced > electrician getting the hair dryer treatment from his boss because he had > used a green/yellow piece of wire for a phase connection in an industrial > installation. Ouch! I am pretty sure it's a requirement over here that the 'earth' colours (green/yellow now, was green) are anot used for anything elase in installations. I almost never use green/yellow wire for anything else even inside electronic equipment. The exception would be if I have a piece of multi-core signal cable which happens ot have a green/yellow wire in it. Even then I will try to use it for protective ground if I can Until a few years ago, the phase wires in fixed installations were red, yellow and blue with black neutral. To come into line with the rest of Europe we now have black, brown, grey as the phase colours and blue as neutral. I asked 'OK, if I see a distribution board wired with blue and black wires, how do I know if it's part of the 'blue' phase of an old instation or the 'black' phase of a new one'. The answer 'Test it!'. Which actually, I would do anyway... > Here unfortunately there is no way of knowing which wire is live on the > appliance, since the plug can be connected either way round. Make sure all the sockets in your workshop are wired the same way round and lable the plugs 'top' ? > > I have a dedicated darkroom (it's a little hard treating a DeVere 504 > > enlarger as a temporary device :-)), but I still have (and want) an RCD > > on the incoming mains to it. > > > > Sadly I only have a 35mm enlarger, I am hoping to modify it to take 6x6 > negatives. But I also have quite a few old 6x9 negatives which would be nice > to print. Happily for me, enlargers are cheap second-hand nowadays :-) (as I would seriously suggest looking at a 5*4 (inch) enlarger. They tend to be a lot better made than the medium format ones, and they can be used for smaller negatives. A seocnd-hand enearger is almost certainly fine. The DeVere has adjustable gib strips on the various sliding parts to take up wear. Bellows cna be bought or made. What else is there to go wrong? > is old audio gear, Revox A77s or B77s can be had for very reasonable prices > for example. I have a very nice Marantz amplifier which I got cheap, and a Depends on what you call 'cheap' :-). Good valve audio is expensive over here... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:41:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:41:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4E993E.22553.FE7E64@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 6, 11 12:51:10 pm Message-ID: > Aren't PL/SO-239 coax connectors still called "UHF" connectors by Indeed they are, in quite a few cataloges... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:48:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:48:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Acorn floppy interface question In-Reply-To: <4D4F12A9.7050103@aurigae.demon.co.uk> from "Phill Harvey-Smith" at Feb 6, 11 09:29:13 pm Message-ID: > > Hi all, > > This is going to seem like a weird question...... > > Does anyone know why on almost all of the Acorn machines with disk > interfaces (including at least one non-Acord designed one), they gate > the drive select signals with the motor on signal. e.g. drive select is > inactive unless the moror is also on ? > > This seems to be a peculiarity of Acorn as none of the other machines I > am familliar with do this (Dragon, CoCo etc), even when they use the > WDxa7xx type controlers. Though I guess cirtainly with the Atom / BBC > A/B it may be a requirement of the 8271, it seems odd that it was > carried over to the machines that only ever had 177x controlers. I know that some Imtel disk cotnrollker ICs poll all the drives when they are idle lookinf for a change of state of the ready line, etc. The 8272 certianly does this, I've got a CP/M86 box behind me where the (8") drive LEds light dimply when disk accesses are not taking place as the 8272 polls them. The PC, of course, didn't use the drive select outputs of the 8272. probably because of this 'feature'... Whether the 8271 does the same, I don't know, but it might well do. If so, it could explain the gating of deive select lines. And I guess that once they had a design that worked, they didn't change it... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:53:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <70B0CE48D0D04CDB84EBC56BC7344858@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 7, 11 01:17:19 pm Message-ID: > > If my search for a 400k drive comes up short and/or if time allows later > this week I'll work on seeing if I can ID the motor controller IC. > > There are two PCBs in the drive, the top of the platter goes through one, Waht do you mean by 'platter'? Surely not the disk itseld? > and the bottom of the platter goes through another. When I open it up > again, I'll take some pictures. it's very possible that one of the PCBs, probably the upper one, is the spindle motor circuitry. If you are very lucky, it will be similar to the motors in other Sony drives of the period, and will have similar control circuitry. I think there are some photos of a 'standard' Sony drive (in bits) in by Flikr account (tonyduell). Do the parts look anythting like that? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:57:15 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:57:15 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DC Power Was: OT: american vs european 220 In-Reply-To: <4D4ED646.22978.1ECE3DE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 6, 11 05:11:34 pm Message-ID: > as power supply(-ies) operating off the AC line. But a switching > supply shouldn't care if it's running from DC or AC. It won't bother the powers-that-be, but to make this marginally on-topic for classiccmp, a fair number of older SMPSUs do require AC mains inputs. They have a mains frequency transfomer to provide the startup supply (and sometimes the running supply for the SMPSU control circuitry). The VT100 is one such, so is the HP7245 pritner/plotter. of course if we ever do get DC maoins, classiccmpers are going to have problem. There are a lot of linear PSUs in our machines, AC motors in disk drives, fans, etc and so on. I suspect we'll have to make DC->AC converters... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 15:01:58 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 21:01:58 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Feb 6, 11 11:45:28 pm Message-ID: > > > Has it not occurred to anybody to take the 4014 serial drawing stream as th= > e source? Where can Philip find this data stream in his 4052 and where can I find it in my analogue storage display? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 15:06:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 21:06:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Feb 7, 11 00:19:11 am Message-ID: > > > > On 2/6/2011 6:32 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article<201102041608.p14G80ff036949 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, > > John Foust writes: > > > >> Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? > > Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on > > ebay, according to sniping advocates. > Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a > situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be > in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost > 7.99, but cost 16 for no reason. Wrong! It cost you $16 for a very good reason. Namely that somebody else was prepared to pay $15 for it. Or are you saying that anybody who enters abit that does not end up exceeding the current high bid (which prssumably the new bidder doesn;t know) is a 'moron'? Was the item worth $6 to you? If so, then what are you moaning about? You got somethign you wanted at a price you were prepared to pay. if not, then why the heck did you bid more than $16 for it? -tony From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Feb 7 16:15:40 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 11:15:40 +1300 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay References: Message-ID: Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. I'm seldom around at the end of an auction to defend a bid anyway. When I bid for items I think hard to myself just how much is this thing worth to me. What is the absolute MAXIMUM I'd pay. Then I'll add a little bit more and put in a bid. I'll then ignore the auction until the system tells me if I've won or lost. If I've won, great. If I've lost, I'm disappointed but someone was simply prepared to pay more than I was. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 10:06 AM Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay >> >> >> >> On 2/6/2011 6:32 PM, Richard wrote: >> > In article<201102041608.p14G80ff036949 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, >> > John Foust writes: >> > >> >> Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? >> > Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on >> > ebay, according to sniping advocates. >> Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a >> situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be >> in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost >> 7.99, but cost 16 for no reason. > > Wrong! > It cost you $16 for a very good reason. Namely that somebody else was > prepared to pay $15 for it. Or are you saying that anybody who enters > abit that does not end up exceeding the current high bid (which > prssumably the new bidder doesn;t know) is a 'moron'? > > Was the item worth $6 to you? If so, then what are you moaning about? You > got somethign you wanted at a price you were prepared to pay. if not, > then why the heck did you bid more than $16 for it? > > -tony > From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 16:31:02 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 15:31:02 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , "Terry Stewart" writes: > Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. Its the snipers who whine about people "ruining" it for them by bidding up repeatedly during the course of the auction instead of just bidding once at the end in a crap shoot. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 7 16:46:24 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 14:46:24 -0800 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay (sniping thread) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D507640.20709@jwsss.com> On 2/7/2011 1:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> On 2/6/2011 6:32 PM, Richard wrote: >>> In article<201102041608.p14G80ff036949 at billY.EZWIND.NET>, >>> John Foust writes: >>> >>>> Item 130481622084 ? Only $500 so far? >>> Remember? "Sniping" is the only way *real* people bid on things on >>> ebay, according to sniping advocates. >> Here is why I snipe, Richard. Courtesy of a feedback 5 moron, and a >> situation where I could not snipe due to a business meeting I had to be >> in. And no, I manually snipe, not with a service. Should have cost >> 7.99, but cost 16 for no reason. > Wrong! > It cost you $16 for a very good reason. Namely that somebody else was > prepared to pay $15 for it. Or are you saying that anybody who enters > abit that does not end up exceeding the current high bid (which > prssumably the new bidder doesn;t know) is a 'moron'? > > Was the item worth $6 to you? If so, then what are you moaning about? You > got somethign you wanted at a price you were prepared to pay. if not, > then why the heck did you bid more than $16 for it? > > -tony What I'm saying is no reason is that when I have seen low numbered bidders where I snipe and do for a large enough amount to take the auction, they rarely bid over a couple of dollars over the amount asked by the seller. this little by little does not indicate a desire to buy it for $16, or they would have said hmmm.. I think 16 will take it. this clown did it a buck or two at at time, didn't bid enough to take the item ($25 would have), so I question whether it is stupidity, or in the case of fraud, a seller with a shill acount trying to make him more than his asking price. I did bid and take the auction, by the way. I lost one a few days earlier fair and square on another item where I put in what I call a guard bid for a couple of bucks over the amount, and two snipers paid nearly three times what the asking was, in that case about $36. Fair and square, and didn't waste my money. From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 7 16:46:39 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 14:46:39 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Considering that 'straight up and early' only drives up prices, you'd think it would, though. Unless of course, you're a seller. But hey, I didn't design e-pay's auction mechanism, so I'm not going to comment further. I just do what I gotta do. > -----Original Message----- > From: legalize at xmission.com > Sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 12:03:50 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! > > ...and neither does bidding straight up and early. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! ____________________________________________________________ Send any screenshot to your friends in seconds... Works in all emails, instant messengers, blogs, forums and social networks. TRY IM TOOLPACK at http://www.imtoolpack.com/default.aspx?rc=if2 for FREE From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 7 16:51:43 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 14:51:43 -0800 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay snipting thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D50777F.5050303@jwsss.com> On 2/7/2011 2:31 PM, Richard wrote: > In article, > "Terry Stewart" writes: > >> Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. > Its the snipers who whine about people "ruining" it for them by > bidding up repeatedly during the course of the auction instead of just > bidding once at the end in a crap shoot. Huh? A sniper is only whining when forced to put in an early bid (me) and am not able to snipe. It is useful as the auction goes on to give me a number to put in in the last 5 seconds, and I welcome anything that goes on during the course of the listing, as well as questions answered, etc. I can guage whether an outrageous amount will take it in the case of many questions, and several hundred views, as well as some pre end of auction bidding. Sometimes it is over my price before I do anything, and that is fine. However the only complaint I have posted here is the rats chewing on the wire taking my money when I do have to put in a fairly large number early on. In the case under discussion just bid $16, then maybe $50 (though that would have taken this) and get the item. dollar by dollar raising is either stupid or doing something illegal, both costing me more than a single snipe probably will. I can't read the mind of the iditio who bid the $16, but there is no doubt that if I was sniping and he had bid $9, I would have paid $10, because there were no other bidders. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 17:10:51 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:10:51 -0700 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: In article <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me at inbox.com>, N0body H0me writes: > Considering that 'straight up and early' > only drives up prices, you'd think it > would, though. The only person who complains about "driving up prices" are the people who aren't willing to bid enough to win the item. Sniping also "drives up prices" if you don't win. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 7 17:11:44 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:11:44 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay snipting thread In-Reply-To: <4D50777F.5050303@jwsss.com> References: <4D50777F.5050303@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <4D50777F.5050303 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > > > On 2/7/2011 2:31 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article, > > "Terry Stewart" writes: > > > >> Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. > > Its the snipers who whine about people "ruining" it for them by > > bidding up repeatedly during the course of the auction instead of just > > bidding once at the end in a crap shoot. > Huh? See post by "nobody home" and list archives for plenty of examples of snipers whining because other people outbid them early. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Feb 7 17:15:25 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 18:15:25 -0500 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net>, , <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com>, Message-ID: That makes no sense. sniping does not drive up prices like early bidding does. anyone who knows fleabay knows that bidding early has the only effect of driving the price up. there's no point in bidding early, none at all. You're not going to win, and you have no hope of winning, regardless of the outcome, unless you're going to drive the price up so high that you've priced it out of the market. I've seen guys drive the price of an old sun server worth max $1500 up to over $5000 using tactics you talk about. go ahead, keep it, I can buy 3 of them with cash left over for that price. the best time to bid is in the last 5 minutes, or if you absolutely must, the last day. > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 16:10:51 -0700 > > > In article <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me at inbox.com>, > N0body H0me writes: > > > Considering that 'straight up and early' > > only drives up prices, you'd think it > > would, though. > > The only person who complains about "driving up prices" are the people > who aren't willing to bid enough to win the item. > > Sniping also "drives up prices" if you don't win. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! From n0body.h0me at inbox.com Mon Feb 7 17:42:27 2011 From: n0body.h0me at inbox.com (N0body H0me) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 15:42:27 -0800 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay snipting thread In-Reply-To: References: <4d50777f.5050303@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4F4C22BC54C.0000070Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Ah, excuse me? Yah, I know I promised I wouldn't say anything more, but I have to address this. The only whining I see is coming from people who disapprove of the methods we're forced to use in order to win auctions on e-bay (without taking it in the shorts). You don't like it, then sorry, we just do what what we have to do. > -----Original Message----- > From: legalize at xmission.com > Sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:11:44 -0700 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay snipting thread > > > In article <4D50777F.5050303 at jwsss.com>, > jim s writes: > >> >> >> On 2/7/2011 2:31 PM, Richard wrote: >>> In article, >>> "Terry Stewart" writes: >>> >>>> Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. >>> Its the snipers who whine about people "ruining" it for them by >>> bidding up repeatedly during the course of the auction instead of just >>> bidding once at the end in a crap shoot. >> Huh? > > See post by "nobody home" and list archives for plenty of examples of > snipers whining because other people outbid them early. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for > download > > > Legalize Adulthood! ____________________________________________________________ FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 7 17:49:04 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 15:49:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Richard wrote: > > In article <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me at inbox.com>, > N0body H0me writes: > >> Considering that 'straight up and early' >> only drives up prices, you'd think it >> would, though. > > The only person who complains about "driving up prices" are the people > who aren't willing to bid enough to win the item. > > Sniping also "drives up prices" if you don't win. What a load of nonsense. With how eBay is setup the only thing that makes any sense is to snipe, and when you snipe, you put in the max you're willing to pay as you have to expect that someone else besides you will be sniping. Zane From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 7 17:58:16 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 23:58:16 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net>, , <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com>, Message-ID: <4D508718.2080204@aurigae.demon.co.uk> On 07/02/2011 23:15, Dan Gahlinger wrote: I think I decided long ago that there are two types of people involved in the sniping / no sniping debate 1) the snipers who must have the item (as cheaply as possible) and to hell with anyone else, it almost seems to me that the winning the item is more important the item itself at least to *some* snipers. 2) the non-snipers who decide what an item is worth and what they are prepared to pay and proxy bid that, if they don't get it will then well someone else thought it was worth more than them. when the two cross each other's path they are not going to see eye-to eye as they feel that the other side is doing them out of what they want. Personally I don't snipe, I may well delay bidding till the last day, but generally I'll only bid if no one else has or it's a buy it now auction. I also don't sit watching the auction I'll wait for ebay's notification emails and generally these days I'll win. Cheers. Phill. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Feb 7 17:59:09 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:59:09 -0600 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net>, , <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com>, Message-ID: <4D50874D.7090009@jbrain.com> On 2/7/2011 5:15 PM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > there's no point in bidding early, none at all. > > You're not going to win, and you have no hope of winning, regardless of the outcome, > unless you're going to drive the price up so high that you've priced it out of the market. I agree with your sentiment, but I do sometimes bid early if: * A few days have passed and there does not appear to be any interest * I am afraid I will forget to bid at the end, and I feel the item is undervalued by the community I have obtained items this way, so you can win with early bidding, but it assumes few others are interested in an item. Jim From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Feb 7 18:21:45 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:21:45 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: <3BC1EBF55A29420491A831F90125D68B@massey.ac.nz> By platter I meant the flywheel which turns the disk. Actually what I said was misleading. It doesn't go through the circuit boards. Actually the top circuit board is wrapped around the wheel while the bottom one is actually underneath is. I've taken some pictures... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-front-of-drive-800x600.jpg http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-800x600.jpg http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-circuit-board-large.jpg I've looked up the ICs on the bottom circuit board. Apart from the microprocessor(?) these are: sn74ls26n - QUAD 2 -INPUT NAND BUFFER mc3470ap- Floppy Disk Read Amplifier System UPa2003c - NPN SILICON EPITAXIAL DARLINGTON TRANSISTOR ARRAY 8402 - rectifier? 74ls05n - Hex inverters with open collector outputs 14-PDIP 0 to 70 74ls04n - Hex inverter sn75452BP - Dual Very-high Speed, High-current Peripheral Drivers ne592n - differential video amplifiers Would one of the last two be the ones controlling the motor? By snooping around I've managed to find a service manual for the OA-D32V 400k drives on bitsavers. However, this covers an earlier model. The Lisa 2 has a OA-D34V and (as far as I can see) the circuit board at the bottom is quite different. I'm not techo though, and I struggle to understand what's written there. There may be hints but I can't interpret them. The manual is at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sony/Sony_OA-D32_Microfloppy_Service_Nov83.pdf I will re-read it again and see if it points to anything I can look at. There is a troubleshooting chart but you seem to need some test equipment. I appreciate your continuing suggestions, Tony and others. They are keeping me from giving up entirely. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress >> >> If my search for a 400k drive comes up short and/or if time allows later >> this week I'll work on seeing if I can ID the motor controller IC. >> >> There are two PCBs in the drive, the top of the platter goes through one, > > Waht do you mean by 'platter'? Surely not the disk itseld? > >> and the bottom of the platter goes through another. When I open it up >> again, I'll take some pictures. > > it's very possible that one of the PCBs, probably the upper one, is the > spindle motor circuitry. If you are very lucky, it will be similar to the > motors in other Sony drives of the period, and will have similar control > circuitry. > > I think there are some photos of a 'standard' Sony drive (in bits) in by > Flikr account (tonyduell). Do the parts look anythting like that? > > -tony > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 7 18:45:00 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:45:00 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <041901cbc706$9ec31f70$dc495e50$@ntlworld.com> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> <4D502AEE.1010508@jetnet.ab.ca> <041901cbc706$9ec31f70$dc495e50$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <4D50920C.4060101@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/7/2011 1:35 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben >> Sent: 07 February 2011 17:25 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay >> >> On 2/7/2011 10:11 AM, Glen Slick wrote: >>> On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 8:46 AM, William Donzelli >> wrote: >>>> Yay! Its the sniping thread! >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Will >>> >>> What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective >>> to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? >> >> 220V will kill the sniper quicker. >> I think sniping is IMMORAL and ILLEGAL regardless of what ebay thinks. > > The morality of sniping is somewhat subjective and certainly something that > can be legitimately debated. Personally I dislike it but find that I have to > do it (manually) to stand a chance. Well I see it this way. If you bid at a country auction, you can't leave in the middle of bidding the the outhouse, and leave a sign I bid 3 cents more the last bidder. You must be there in person to finish the bid. Sniping software is doing just that. > I am interested though in why you think it is illegal; that should be a more > black and white matter, either it is or it isn't. Of course the legality or > otherwise will also depend on which country you are in, so it would be > interesting to know on what basis you think it is illegal and which country > your interpretation of the law applies to. It would be surprising though to > find that eBay has built an illegal service, I am sure that this would by > now have attracted the attention of the legal authorities of the relevant > countries (perhaps it has, I don't know). > > Regards > > Rob > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Feb 7 18:49:36 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:49:36 +1300 Subject: e-bay vrs other's insertion fee (Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification!) References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net>, , <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com>, <4D50874D.7090009@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I wonder if e-bays's policies contribute towards angst from both buyer and seller? Here in NZ e-bay has not caught on, except for overseas sales. Our local auction site is Trade Me and it's hugely popular. Unlike e-bay, with Trade Me when you list an item, there is no "insertion fee" calculated on the amount you list the item for. From memory there may be a tiny nominal flat fee for listing but Trade Me charges you on what the item actually sells FOR. If it doesn't sell, you can relist three times without a charge. With ebay there is a financial incentive for the seller to list low, hoping the bids will bring it up to the reserve. On Trade me, the common practice (99% of items) is to list your goods at a price you would be happy to receive and make the sale no reserve. Buyers then know if they bid then they have a chance at getting the item and they also have an indication of what the seller thinks it's worth. Sellers know that their goods will not disappear at a price lower than they value the goods themselves. For example, at the moment I have an Osborne 1a on TradeMe at $NZ 150 no reserve. I wouldn't let it go for anything under $150. If it doesn't sell, too bad. I'll try again later. I've only lost my nominal listing fee (about $1 or so). If I get more than $150 because the demand is there then that's a bonus. This doesn't stop the practice of sniping of course, but I do think in this regard the pricing policy of Trade Me is better, certainly from a sellers point of view. Terry From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 7 19:20:00 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 18:20:00 -0700 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D509A40.6090505@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/7/2011 1:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > [Mullard Book] > >> If you could find it and give me details of it, I can start looking. That >> would be much appreciated. > > I will keep looking for it, but it's unlikely I'll find it anytime > soon. What I can remembr is the title ('High Quality Sound > Reproduction'), the fact that it was published by Mullard (==Philips, of > course) and it dates from about the time of the introduction of the EL34. > >> >>> There were of coruse other FM tuners for the home constructor at one >>> time, Some easier to align than others... >>> >>> I also have the GEC book on audio amplifiers. The _low power_ one is the >>> Williamson (15W, 2*KT66 in the output stage). I think the highest power >>> amplifier schematic in that book gives 1.1kW RMS into the speakers... >>> >> >> *Drool* >> Another book I shall have to try and find... > > No that one I could find. > > It's called 'An Approach to Audio Frequency Amplifier Design' and claims > to be 'A Publication of the General Electric Co Ltd of England', datead > 1957. It is not a construcitonal book like the Mullard one, there are no > chassis layouts or anthring like that. But there are plenty of > schematics, thory, etc. > > Designs include : > A 5W junior amplifier > 14W Ultra-Linear amplifier (this is the 912-Plus) > 14W DC/AC (mains) amplifier > Williamson > KT88 30W Ultra-Linear amplifier > KT55 25W DC/AC (amins) amplifier > KT88 50W Ultra-Linear amplifier (the '88-50') > KT55 50W Ultra-Linear amplifier > KT88 100W Fixed-bias amplifier > DA42 175W amplifier > DA42 200W amplifier > DA100 115-175W Class AB1 amplifier > DA100 200-270W AB2 amplifier > V1505 300-450W Class AB1 amplifier (this used KT66s in the _driver_ stage) > V1505 600-1100W AB2 amplifier > A couple of pre-amplifers used the Z729 (which iIRC is an EF86) > 400W multiple pair amplifier (this has 10 KT88s in parallel push-pull!) > > Drool on! > >> Someday I must get round to building a valve amplifier. > > I must get round to buildign a secodn Williamson. A friend of mine had > one and wanted to get a stereo pair but he never found a second one. He > gave it to me in exachnage for repairs to his guitar amp. He also gave be > some boxes of 'junk' which incuded a pair of new KT66s, other valves, > valvholders, etc _and the Williamson mains and output transformers. In > other words he'd got the hard to find bits to make his pair... His loss.... > > -tony Some good PDF doc's from that era. Happy digging. http://www.pmillett.com/index.html Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 7 19:29:44 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 17:29:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective > to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? Surely you realize that it is the frequency, not the voltage that matters. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 7 19:32:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 20:32:54 -0500 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D509D46.3040508@neurotica.com> On 2/7/11 8:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: >> What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective >> to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? > > Surely you realize that it is the frequency, not the voltage that matters. EMACS!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 7 19:33:11 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 17:33:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: >> What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective >> to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? > > Surely you realize that it is the frequency, not the voltage that matters. > Go 400Hz or go home. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 7 19:35:32 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 18:35:32 -0700 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> References: <201102041608.p14G80ff036949@billY.EZWIND.NET> <4D4FAAFF.4010101@jwsss.com> <4D501EE6.6020307@verizon.net> <20110207172901.N31955@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D509DE4.6010705@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/7/2011 6:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 7 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: >> What I've been wondering about for a while now, is it more effective >> to snipe at 120VAC or 220VAC? > > Surely you realize that it is the frequency, not the voltage that matters. .001 Hz sounds right for dial up. :) From evan at snarc.net Mon Feb 7 19:43:24 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 20:43:24 -0500 Subject: Ken Olsen Message-ID: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20030941-265.html RIP. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 7 20:05:54 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 21:05:54 -0500 Subject: Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> References: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D50A502.3050301@neurotica.com> On 2/7/11 8:43 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20030941-265.html > > RIP. Oh no. :-( I had really hoped to meet him someday. I need to stop waiting so long for stuff like that. RIP, Ken Olsen. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 7 21:16:11 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 03:16:11 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4D50B57B.6070401@philpem.me.uk> On 07/02/11 23:49, Zane H. Healy wrote: > What a load of nonsense. With how eBay is setup the only thing that makes > any sense is to snipe, and when you snipe, you put in the max you're > willing > to pay as you have to expect that someone else besides you will be sniping. Seconded. What you're effectively doing with sniping is turning the thing into a sealed-bid auction. Nobody knows what anyone's bid is until the very last second, when it's too late to do a thing about it. This -- in my opinion -- levels the playing field. Think about it -- in a real auction, you have people holding up bidding cards to the beat of the auctioneer's voice. Nobody knows what anyone else's maximum is until that other person drops out (if they drop out at all). eBay's proxy bidding system is far too vulnerable to abuse. Also, I have a rotten memory. Even with the "item ending soon" reminders, I've been known to miss the end of an auction I intended to bid on. What I usually do is SSH into my server, run Esnipe, and leave it running with my max bid set. Then if I do forget, at least I'll get a bid in, and I'll have bid what I thought the item was worth. Now what really pisses me off are the whack-jobs who cancel bids without rhyme or reason, apparently to get around ebay fees, then attempt to justify this with the line: "If this goes for less than I want, I reserve the right to cancel the auction." I've had this happen several times. Hint -- stay away from the guy who's currently using the Ebay UID "rainbowwarriorplanet". He's had 14 UIDs in the past five years (like that'll help!), and is more than happy to cancel bids if he thinks the item sold for too little... So much for a "legally binding contract". Just for grins, go look at the responses he's left to the negative feedback in his profile... "I live in hope that somehow things will get better, though I've resolved myself to the fact that there's more chance of pigs spontaneously evolving the ability to fly, hell freezing over, and Satan going to work on a pink snow-mobile wearing a matching dress and mittens, all on the same day!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 7 21:56:46 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 20:56:46 -0700 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D50B57B.6070401@philpem.me.uk> References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <4D50B57B.6070401@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D50BEFE.3010607@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/7/2011 8:16 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > "I live in hope that somehow things will get better, though I've > resolved myself to the fact that there's more chance of pigs > spontaneously evolving the ability to fly, hell freezing over, and Satan > going to work on a pink snow-mobile wearing a matching dress and > mittens, all on the same day!" Well it has happend ... how do you think he keeps all the *DEMONS* in check, that love fire and brimstone. Ben. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Feb 7 22:56:27 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:56:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: seeking gutta-percha Message-ID: I was wondering if someone out there knows how to acquire smallish quantities of gutta-percha for antique-ish fiddling around with. I'm looking for sheets, blocks, or bars of the stuff; not the tiny needles sold by dental suppliers. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 23:06:37 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 00:06:37 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <3BC1EBF55A29420491A831F90125D68B@massey.ac.nz> References: <3BC1EBF55A29420491A831F90125D68B@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Terry Stewart wrote: > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-circuit-board-large.jpg > > I've looked up the ICs on the bottom circuit board. ?Apart from the > microprocessor(?) these are: > > 8402 - rectifier? What I'm reading from that one is... (MMI logo) MCI (c)1982 8402 Since it's made by MMI, I'm going to say it's a programmable device that Apple called an "MCI" with a copyright on the source file of 1982, manufactured the second week of 1984. That doesn't say what it _does_ but 20-pin PALs aren't unusual, not even ones from 1984. Perhaps you'll find a reference in a tech manual to the "MCI". I don't recognize the acronym in this context. -ethan From curt at atarimuseum.com Mon Feb 7 23:48:24 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 00:48:24 -0500 Subject: Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> References: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D50D928.6050606@atarimuseum.com> Wow... that sucks, I mean he was in his 80's, but still, its very sad to see Ken Olson pass on, we all owe a lot to DEC and him... Evan, hope maybe you can scrounge up a couple of big DEC heads and have them do some nice displays this year at VCF East as a nice farewall to Ken Olson... Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20030941-265.html > > RIP. > From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 8 01:23:31 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:23:31 +0100 Subject: e-bay vrs other's insertion fee (Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification!) In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net>, , <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com>, <4D50874D.7090009@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <53120bbc2895dfe578809fccbed2f16b.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> snip snip snip > Here in NZ e-bay has not caught on, except for overseas sales. Our local > auction site is Trade Me and it's hugely popular. > > Unlike e-bay, with Trade Me when you list an item, there is no "insertion > fee" calculated on the amount you list the item for. From memory there > may > be a tiny nominal flat fee for listing but Trade Me charges you on what > the > item actually sells FOR. If it doesn't sell, you can relist three times > without a charge. > snip snip snip Her in the Netherlands we have several 2nd hand selling sites, on which 'marktplaats' (marketplace) is the most known one. It is nowadays owned by ebay, but there is no listing fee nor there is a commission to be paid for except a few categories for high value items, like cars & motorcycles. For those categories you pay a fixed listing fee of say $4 and the ad stays there for up to 6 months (regular ones several weeks with free extension is not sold), and there is no sellers fee. Sure, they (ebay) tried to ask money for other categories over time, but found out that it did cost them more than it would bring in, people just would go to one of the other selling sites, so the fee charge was undone. Next to that, it is not an auction site, but an 'offering' (?) site, if you list an item and you are not happy with the amount people want to offer, you are not obliged to sell it, just remove the listing. Ed -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From jonas at otter.se Mon Feb 7 04:00:56 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 10:00:56 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >I don;'t dispute that for an instant. What I do disagree with is that all >pre-1970 power tools in all countries wire not earthed nad wired to >non-polarised plugs. This is an international list after all. > >-tony > They most certainly weren't. There were power tools here that had a metal casing, were earthed and wired to a non-polarised plug. That was well before 1970. And in Sweden. Jonas From bub7734 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 09:06:05 2011 From: bub7734 at yahoo.com (Scott G Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 07:06:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: GONE: FREE in Minneapolis: RL02 drive for repair or parts Message-ID: <762393.5789.qm@web111402.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> The RL02 drive has been claimed. Cheers, -scott From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:27:27 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 20:27:27 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: , <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk>, Message-ID: <4D5055AF.4000809@axeside.co.uk> > Has it not occurred to anybody to take the 4014 serial drawing stream > as the source? > > There are only a few commands there. > > I used it to plot roller coasters in a commercial program, COASTER! > > Embedding the tek file was much smaller than including 3d graphics, I > just plotted tek 4010 to the screen. Yes, Randy, it occurred to Tim Shoppa a couple of days ago. The objection is still the same as it was when he suggested it: it's a great idea, but ONLY IF you're trying to copy the screen of a serial terminal. If you're using a self-contained computer like my 4052, or an analogue storage tube, there's no serial drawing stream to take. Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Mon Feb 7 14:33:14 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 20:33:14 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> >> More to the point, though, rasterising the vector screen is exactly what >> those old Tek printers did! They scanned the surface of the tube in a >> raster fashion, and read out what they found there. I don't know how >> well the analogue circuitry preserved the grey scale - my 4631 hasn't >> worked since I got it - but done well, this could do pretty good >> staircase elimination. > > There is no grayscale in a storage tube monitor. There's charge > stored on the tube, or there isn't. Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean greyscale stored on the tube. I meant, can it read out how much of a pixel is covered by drawn lines and interpret that as greyscale? If it can, then that would help reduce the staircase effect when the drawn vector is at a shallow angle to the scan lines. For that matter, how big are the pixels? I am assuming it doesn't divide up scan lines into pixels as such at all, but just takes some sort of unclocked stream as it goes along the line. Philip. From jonas at otter.se Mon Feb 7 15:08:48 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 22:08:48 +0100 Subject: OT: high powered amps (ben) Message-ID: <005601cbc70b$37819d00$a684d700$@otter.se> > > Try here for the on line version. > http://www.tubebooks.org/ > > > Jonas > > > Ben. > PS. A GM-70 ( $90 ) might substitute for V1505. > Thanks! You just saved my weekend ;-) Jonas From doug at doughq.com Mon Feb 7 17:49:34 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 10:49:34 +1100 Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay snipting thread In-Reply-To: <4F4C22BC54C.0000070Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> References: <4d50777f.5050303@jwsss.com> <4F4C22BC54C.0000070Fn0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <4D50850E.8040307@doughq.com> As a seller, I hate it when an item is purchased by a sniper. It means that the opportunity for emotive bidding, resulting in massive profits for me is reduced. :-) Doug On 8/02/2011 10:42 AM, N0body H0me wrote: > Ah, excuse me? > > Yah, I know I promised I wouldn't say anything more, > but I have to address this. > > The only whining I see is coming from people who > disapprove of the methods we're forced to use in > order to win auctions on e-bay (without taking > it in the shorts). > > You don't like it, then sorry, we just do what > what we have to do. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: legalize at xmission.com >> Sent: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 16:11:44 -0700 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay snipting thread >> >> >> In article<4D50777F.5050303 at jwsss.com>, >> jim s writes: >> >>> >>> On 2/7/2011 2:31 PM, Richard wrote: >>>> In article, >>>> "Terry Stewart" writes: >>>> >>>>> Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. >>>> Its the snipers who whine about people "ruining" it for them by >>>> bidding up repeatedly during the course of the auction instead of just >>>> bidding once at the end in a crap shoot. >>> Huh? >> See post by "nobody home" and list archives for plenty of examples of >> snipers whining because other people outbid them early. >> -- >> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for >> download >> >> >> Legalize Adulthood! > ____________________________________________________________ > FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks& orcas on your desktop! > Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 19:15:27 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:15:27 -0500 Subject: VS8000 (was Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay) Message-ID: >A previous employer had two "MicroVAX 8000s"; we got them without the >graphics hardware. > >One was supplied to us by DEC, for whom we did some VAXBI work. We also >had a couple of 3rd party interfaces we designed. > >The other we bought from E&S when they were getting out of the business. > >Nice little boxes. >-- >roger ivie >rivie at ridgenet.net I have one without the graphics that was used for VAXELN develpment. I am looking for a KDB50 cable assembly that plugs onto the backplane so I can install a RA71 disk. I could also use a T1031 KFBTA RD disk controller and cables. -- Michael Thompson From jlobocki at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 23:04:40 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 23:04:40 -0600 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: > The only person who complains about "driving up prices" are the people >> who aren't willing to bid enough to win the item. >> >> Sniping also "drives up prices" if you don't win. >> > > What a load of nonsense. With how eBay is setup the only thing that makes > any sense is to snipe, and when you snipe, you put in the max you're > willing > to pay as you have to expect that someone else besides you will be sniping. > > Zane > > > > actually that makes good sense. it comes down to whos faster and willing to pay more, that almost seems the most fair and random. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 23:25:00 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 21:25:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D50BEFE.3010607@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <37663.38977.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 2/7/11, ben wrote: > > "I live in hope that somehow things will get better, > though I've > > resolved myself to the fact that there's more chance > of pigs > > spontaneously evolving the ability to fly, hell > freezing over, and Satan > > going to work on a pink snow-mobile wearing a matching > dress and > > mittens, all on the same day!" > > Well it has happend ...? how do you think he keeps all > the *DEMONS* > in check, that love fire and brimstone. > Ben. Once upon a time, theologians used to contemplate how many angels could dance on the head of a pin. Look how far we've come. Ah yes, imagining ol' Beelzebub riding a snowmobile and wearing dresses, etc. Needless to say, y'all are headed for fiery damnation. All of y'all and all snipers. And ANYONE that has ever worked for ePay. There's a special ring of Gehenna/Tartarus reserved for *those* offenders. Meg Whitmann will wear out her eternal stay in the maw of some unspeakable creature. A fate she so richly deserves. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Tue Feb 8 03:11:01 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 22:11:01 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: <3BC1EBF55A29420491A831F90125D68B@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <2EF0722D04F3478F8B518E950798DF21@massey.ac.nz> Another couple of images of the 400k drive in various stages of undress... http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-minus-board-800x600.jpg http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-top-of-drive-800x600.jpg Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 1:21 PM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > By platter I meant the flywheel which turns the disk. Actually what I > said was misleading. It doesn't go through the circuit boards. Actually > the top circuit board is wrapped around the wheel while the bottom one is > actually underneath is. > > I've taken some pictures... > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-front-of-drive-800x600.jpg > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-800x600.jpg > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-circuit-board-large.jpg > > I've looked up the ICs on the bottom circuit board. Apart from the > microprocessor(?) these are: > > sn74ls26n - QUAD 2 -INPUT NAND BUFFER > mc3470ap- Floppy Disk Read Amplifier System > UPa2003c - NPN SILICON EPITAXIAL DARLINGTON TRANSISTOR ARRAY > 8402 - rectifier? > 74ls05n - Hex inverters with open collector outputs 14-PDIP 0 to 70 > 74ls04n - Hex inverter > sn75452BP - Dual Very-high Speed, High-current Peripheral Drivers > ne592n - differential video amplifiers > > Would one of the last two be the ones controlling the motor? > > By snooping around I've managed to find a service manual for the OA-D32V > 400k drives on bitsavers. However, this covers an earlier model. The > Lisa 2 has a OA-D34V and (as far as I can see) the circuit board at the > bottom is quite different. I'm not techo though, and I struggle to > understand what's written there. There may be hints but I can't interpret > them. The manual is at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sony/Sony_OA-D32_Microfloppy_Service_Nov83.pdf > > I will re-read it again and see if it points to anything I can look at. > There is a troubleshooting chart but you seem to need some test equipment. > > I appreciate your continuing suggestions, Tony and others. They are > keeping me from giving up entirely. > > Terry > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 9:53 AM > Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > > >>> >>> If my search for a 400k drive comes up short and/or if time allows later >>> this week I'll work on seeing if I can ID the motor controller IC. >>> >>> There are two PCBs in the drive, the top of the platter goes through >>> one, >> >> Waht do you mean by 'platter'? Surely not the disk itseld? >> >>> and the bottom of the platter goes through another. When I open it up >>> again, I'll take some pictures. >> >> it's very possible that one of the PCBs, probably the upper one, is the >> spindle motor circuitry. If you are very lucky, it will be similar to the >> motors in other Sony drives of the period, and will have similar control >> circuitry. >> >> I think there are some photos of a 'standard' Sony drive (in bits) in by >> Flikr account (tonyduell). Do the parts look anythting like that? >> >> -tony >> > > > From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Feb 8 03:25:48 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 09:25:48 -0000 Subject: Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4D50D928.6050606@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> <4D50D928.6050606@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: I worked for DEC and met Ken on a few occasions. The one I remember was having joined DEC as a Sales Engineer in the early 1970's. The highlight of our six-week training program was "Lunch with Ken Olsen". We duly filed into the inevitable windowless conference room and stocked up our plates from the buffet. We sat down and nibbled on what we had. After about ten minutes somebody said "where's Ken Olsen?" A voice in the middle of the group said "I'm just finishing my lunch, I'll come and talk to you all shortly". He knew that being new hires we would probably not recognize him. You could see he thought it was really funny. Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Curt @ Atari Museum Sent: 08 February 2011 05:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ken Olsen Wow... that sucks, I mean he was in his 80's, but still, its very sad to see Ken Olson pass on, we all owe a lot to DEC and him... Evan, hope maybe you can scrounge up a couple of big DEC heads and have them do some nice displays this year at VCF East as a nice farewall to Ken Olson... Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20030941-265.html > > RIP. > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 8 04:02:57 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 10:02:57 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <37663.38977.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <37663.38977.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5114D1.5000008@philpem.me.uk> On 08/02/11 05:25, Chris M wrote: > Needless to say, y'all are headed for fiery damnation. All of y'all > and all snipers. And ANYONE that has ever worked for ePay. There's a > special ring of Gehenna/Tartarus reserved for *those* offenders. Don't forget the Special Hell. The one that's reserved for folks that work for ebay, and people that talk at the theatre. > Meg Whitmann will wear out her eternal stay in the maw of some > unspeakable creature. A fate she so richly deserves. Surely Sarah Palin deserves a little "recognition" too? XD -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 8 05:08:56 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 11:08:56 +0000 Subject: Anyone want an IBM/Hitachi 5.25in 2.4MB floppy drive? Message-ID: <4D512448.8040206@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I'm toying with the idea of importing a couple of Hitachi HFD532EIU 5.25in 2.4MB floppy drives from the USA. Thing is, the postage on these is rather steep -- they won't quite fit into a USPS Small flat-rate box, and the next size up is the $47.50 Medium International flat-rate box (or $65 via Priority Mail in the seller's own box... yeah, right). So here's the question. Given that each drive costs $15, plus $47.50 shipping for all three, would anyone be interested in taking one or two of these drives off my hands for the cost of the drive, plus a contribution towards the original postage fee (the $48)? (I'm also open to offers along the lines of "I have a spare you can have for less money!" -- I only need one drive, and maybe a spare) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Feb 8 06:41:25 2011 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 07:41:25 -0500 Subject: Ken Olsen In-Reply-To: <4D50A502.3050301@neurotica.com> References: <4D509FBC.5010409@snarc.net> <4D50A502.3050301@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D5139F5.2010106@verizon.net> On 02/07/2011 09:05 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 2/7/11 8:43 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> http://news.cnet.com/8301-30684_3-20030941-265.html >> >> RIP. > > Oh no. :-( I had really hoped to meet him someday. I need to stop > waiting so long for stuff like that. > > RIP, Ken Olsen. > > -Dave > You would have enjoyed he meeting. I spent 10 years in DEC and a fair portion in the Mill and not far from KOs office. I had many meeting with him all non formal. the usual thing was being in the Mill on a Saturday workin on a proect and I'd get the feeing I was not alone, sure enough Ken would pop in the office and say hi and as what the project was or in the lab. He was always interested in what people were doing, ever the engineer. Allison From david at classiccomputing.com Tue Feb 8 07:12:28 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:12:28 -0500 Subject: Historical Computer Society In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5FDC0371-4B86-43F4-8C25-B4CD61B89FF1@classiccomputing.com> On Feb 7, 2011, at 3:46 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> This is a group to become a lot like MARCH (http://www.marchclub.org/) > > We prefer http://www.midatlanticretro.org. OK, sorry, I'll start referencing that URL. >> for the greater Atlanta / southeast US region. A few of us had our first meeting in a restaurant yesterday, so I think that is a good start. > > David, you're probably sick of hearing me repeat this, but I strongly > suggest that you follow MARCH's lead and put something about Atlanta or > at least "Southeast" in your new group name. That would help * local * > people find you, rather than people thinking, "Looks like an interesting > group .... oh wait they're only in some place far away from me." No, I actually agree, and we discussed this in our first meeting on Saturday. One of the names to consider is SEARCH (pretty cool) - S = south E = east A = area R = retro C = computing H = hobbyists That's a lot like MARCH, so you guys don't mind? Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 07:30:30 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 07:30:30 -0600 Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D514576.4010900@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Hi guys, > > I'm working on the configuration file format for the DiscFerret. As I > might have mentioned earlier, this is based on the Lua programming > language -- in fact it *is* Lua. How much of that config is likely to change on a regular basis, and how much of it is a case of "set it once then forget about it" (modulo an occasional tweak)? I'm sure Lua's great and everything - but is it overkill for something like this? For anyone not familiar with the language, won't they spend far longer learning it than they would have done simply editing lines in a text file? My assumption - quite possibly incorrect - is that most folk will have several different drives hooked up to the discferret; yes there'll be some commonality in drive entries, but won't a lot of the parameters be set on a per-drive basis? For configs that are very dynamic and involve a lot of repetition, a powerful scripting language might be sensible - but does that fit this particular situation? cheers Jules From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Feb 8 07:43:58 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:43:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Historical Computer Society In-Reply-To: <5FDC0371-4B86-43F4-8C25-B4CD61B89FF1@classiccomputing.com> References: <5FDC0371-4B86-43F4-8C25-B4CD61B89FF1@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, David Greelish wrote: >> David, you're probably sick of hearing me repeat this, but I strongly >> suggest that you follow MARCH's lead and put something about Atlanta or >> at least "Southeast" in your new group name. That would help * local * >> people find you, rather than people thinking, "Looks like an interesting >> group .... oh wait they're only in some place far away from me." > > No, I actually agree, and we discussed this in our first meeting on Saturday. One of the names to consider is SEARCH (pretty cool) - > > S = south > E = east > A = area > R = retro > C = computing > H = hobbyists > > That's a lot like MARCH, so you guys don't mind? "Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery." :-) I like it (M.A.R.C.H. member). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 8 07:46:29 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 05:46:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D5114D1.5000008@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Feb 8, 11 10:02:57 am" Message-ID: <201102081346.p18DkT6r015702@floodgap.com> > > Meg Whitmann will wear out her eternal stay in the maw of some > > unspeakable creature. A fate she so richly deserves. > > Surely Sarah Palin deserves a little "recognition" too? XD Sarah Palin didn't create an auction site with easily warped rules -- but Meg Whitman did her penance, given that a solid proportion of her fortune got poured down the drain in the governor's race. (from the camp that puts down a solid bid and walks away if a sniper decides they're willing to bid more) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot have a science without measurement. -- R. W. Hamming ------------ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 8 09:12:12 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 08:12:12 -0700 Subject: VS8000 (was Re: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Michael Thompson writes: > I have one without the graphics that was used for VAXELN develpment. OK, let me be more specific regarding my "about 10 sold" comment. VS8000 with E&S graphics. About ten sold. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 8 09:16:03 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 08:16:03 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <4D50570A.7080704 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > > There is no grayscale in a storage tube monitor. There's charge > > stored on the tube, or there isn't. > > Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean greyscale stored on the tube. I > meant, can it read out how much of a pixel is covered by drawn lines and > interpret that as greyscale? Well, the whole process in the original equipment is analog. You're not going to see aliasing due to discrete sampling, because there isn't any. You will see aliasing due to the bandwidth of the analog signals, but there isn't anything changing so fast that its outside the bandwidth of the circuitry. > For that matter, how big are the pixels? There aren't any pixels. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trebor77 at execpc.com Tue Feb 8 09:40:43 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 09:40:43 -0600 Subject: MCD 800K 3.5 floppy drive for MAC Message-ID: <4D5163FB.4090609@execpc.com> I cleared out most of my MAC/APPLE Stuff awhile ago but I just found this on the Shelf MCD 800K 3.5 floppy drive for MAC. I've seen some discussions on 3.5 Floppy drives. Is this any use to anyone Bob in Wisconsin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 8 09:53:56 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 08:53:56 -0700 Subject: OT: high powered amps (ben) In-Reply-To: <005601cbc70b$37819d00$a684d700$@otter.se> References: <005601cbc70b$37819d00$a684d700$@otter.se> Message-ID: <4D516714.2020809@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/7/2011 2:08 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: >> >> Try here for the on line version. >> http://www.tubebooks.org/ >> >>> Jonas >>> >> Ben. >> PS. A GM-70 ( $90 ) might substitute for V1505. >> > > Thanks! You just saved my weekend ;-) > > Jonas Now for the speakers ... http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html If you need details on 1KW speakers, just email them for advice. Ben. PS. Remember 500 watts or more will kill small rodents. From feedle at feedle.net Tue Feb 8 10:28:06 2011 From: feedle at feedle.net (C Sullivan / A Baumann) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 08:28:06 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> Message-ID: <714CF473-896E-417B-A9FE-4D36D4B2C2D8@feedle.net> On Feb 7, 2011, at 9:04 PM, joe lobocki wrote: >> actually that makes good sense. it comes down to whos faster and willing to > pay more, that almost seems the most fair and random. Oddly enough (and I'm sure other people have different data, I'm just going off what I've observed as an infrequent eBay buyer): I've seen a much higher "failure to pay" rate on snipers. I can't tell you how many times I've gotten sniped on a bid, only to be contacted later by the seller (either unofficially, or officially through eBay's "Second Chance offer"). Sometimes I've seen the seller just relist the item, I bid again, I get sniped again. More than once: by the same non-paying buyer. In some categories (not classic computer related) this failure rate approaches 100%. The only way this is ever going to be resolved is if eBay requires bidders post a deposit for transactions over a certain dollar amount (like $20), which is forever lost if they back out of a deal and they are permanently banned. You know, like a real reputable auction house would typically require. That won't happen, which is increasingly why a lot of "normal" people are now avoiding eBay. It's so rife with fraud and "bad faith actors" (of which PayPal can be included in those descriptions) it's better off just dumping stuff at Goodwill. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 8 11:01:37 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 12:01:37 -0500 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <714CF473-896E-417B-A9FE-4D36D4B2C2D8@feedle.net> References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com> <201102041608.p14g80ff036949@billy.ezwind.net> <4ECF66BD444.000006A5n0body.h0me@inbox.com> <714CF473-896E-417B-A9FE-4D36D4B2C2D8@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4D5176F1.7020208@neurotica.com> On 2/8/11 11:28 AM, C Sullivan / A Baumann wrote: > The only way this is ever going to be resolved is if eBay requires > bidders post a deposit for transactions over a certain dollar amount > (like $20), which is forever lost if they back out of a deal and they > are permanently banned. You know, like a real reputable auction > house would typically require. Don't forget, though, that "real reputable auction houses" are a dying breed. More transactions happen on eBay in an hour than most of those places do in a year! Time is passing, and the nature of auctions is changing. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 8 11:17:48 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 09:17:48 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <714CF473-896E-417B-A9FE-4D36D4B2C2D8@feedle.net> References: <477875b3f92.0000004cn0body.h0me@inbox.com>, , <714CF473-896E-417B-A9FE-4D36D4B2C2D8@feedle.net> Message-ID: <4D510A3C.15621.4F8E55@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2011 at 8:28, C Sullivan / A Baumann wrote: > That won't happen, which is increasingly why a lot of "normal" people > are now avoiding eBay. It's so rife with fraud and "bad faith actors" > (of which PayPal can be included in those descriptions) it's better > off just dumping stuff at Goodwill. The variety and spirit of the old eBay seems to me not to be what it once was (FWIW, I started with eBay before eBay hosted photos and was unpopulated enough that your ID could just be your initials). I miss some of the other specialty auction sites, such as OnSale, where slightly out-of-date IT gear could be purchased at great savings, but that's another story--onSale's bid model--automatic closing extension probably did them in as much as competition from eBay. Nowadays however, I'm just as likely to find an item being offered through conventional retail channels at a better price for non- vintage items. eBay to me, by and large, is just another storefront with lots of "Buy It Now" and not much real auction activity (A lot of auctions start off at virtually the same price as the BIN price, so I wonder why anyone would bother to bid to save $0.50 on a $20 item and risk not getting it.) This was driven home to me the other week after I broke a piece of glass cookware from a set that I've had since 1974. I went looking for a reqplacement and found perhaps 20 offers--not a one of them an auction, but just a storefront for someone's thrift or antique shop all with BIN, no auction. And that's fine--and perhaps more profitable for eBay. I'm grateful for the view sort that says "Price + Shipping low to high", because it gives me my true cost of an item, when shipping can be very expensive--something that other retailers could learn by. So eBay by and large is just another e-storefront for me. It's particularly useful for electronic component purchases--there's nowhere local to buy a handful of TTL chips, but I can get them shipped for next to nothing from Beijing at rock-bottom prices if I'm willing to wait a bit. Mouser and DigiKey probably get the same stuff from China anyway--and their shipping costs more. And yes, on occasion, I do snipe. This originally started as a way to overcome the inequality of a 14.4Kbit internet connection over those bidders with T1 lines. At that speed, it takes a fair amount of time to reload a page just to see if you hold the current high bid. I joined eSnipe when it first started (and that was my fourth sniping package/service), so I still enjoy the original terms of service-- free for any gavel less than $25 and a $100 cap on fees no matter what the final price on expensive items. I'd be an idiot not to use it--I just set the snipe for whatever I'm willing to pay and go away. If I get the item, fine; otherwise there's always tomorrow. Bottom line--for me, sniping, when I use it, is mostly a matter of convenience. There's nothing in this world that I really need other than food, shelter and love. Everything else is negotiable. All the best, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 8 13:25:38 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:25:38 -0000 Subject: VS8000 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <95C15B8D553249DB80A9307335D4BC50@ANTONIOPC> Roger Ivie [rivie at ridgenet.net] wrote: > During development of VAXBI, we were told (by the folks > working on it) that it was A) not going to be VAX-specific > (DEC was moving MIPSward at the time) and B) would be open. > > We were a bit startled when it was announced as "VAXBI". It was never open (in the way that UNIBUS was) but it wasn't VAX-only as the DECsystem 5800 (iirc) used it too. Antonio From spc at conman.org Tue Feb 8 13:34:01 2011 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 14:34:01 -0500 Subject: RFC: DiscFerret configuration files In-Reply-To: <4D514576.4010900@gmail.com> References: <4D4CBBD7.8090402@philpem.me.uk> <4D514576.4010900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20110208193401.GF7321@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > Philip Pemberton wrote: > >Hi guys, > > > >I'm working on the configuration file format for the DiscFerret. As I > >might have mentioned earlier, this is based on the Lua programming > >language -- in fact it *is* Lua. > > I'm sure Lua's great and everything - but is it overkill for something like > this? For anyone not familiar with the language, won't they spend far > longer learning it than they would have done simply editing lines in a text > file? First off, Lua was originally designed as a configuration language, but grew. Second, it's a tiny language that's pretty straightforward in what it can do. Third, it's tiny because there aren't any batteries included (it only provides what ANSI C gives). Fourth, it's easy to embed in a larger C/C++ application. -spc (So, even *if* it's overkill, it's still small and easy) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 12:31:09 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 18:31:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Big PDP-11 pile on Ebay In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 8, 11 11:15:40 am Message-ID: > > Personally I don't see the big deal about sniping. > > I'm seldom around at the end of an auction to defend a bid anyway. When I > bid for items I think hard to myself just how much is this thing worth to > me. What is the absolute MAXIMUM I'd pay. Then I'll add a little bit more > and put in a bid. I'll then ignore the auction until the system tells me if I don't even 'add a bit more'. I just bid the maximum I am prepared to pay and that's it. Sometimes I win (meaning I've got something I want for a price I was prepared to pay), sometimes I am outbid (which means somebody else was prepared ot pay more). I don't see the problem. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:01:33 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:01:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <3BC1EBF55A29420491A831F90125D68B@massey.ac.nz> from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 8, 11 01:21:45 pm Message-ID: > > By platter I meant the flywheel which turns the disk. Actually what I said > was misleading. It doesn't go through the circuit boards. Actually the top > circuit board is wrapped around the wheel while the bottom one is actually > underneath is. > > I've taken some pictures... > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-front-of-drive-800x600.jpg > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-800x600.jpg > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-circuit-board-large.jpg OK, I've seen those, and the others you mention in a later message.. I almsot recognise that drive. It's clearly based on the full-height single-head Sony that I know and love, and of which many exmaples have passed my bnech. The main logic board is different, and there must be other changes too, but it's similar. You should download and examine 'my' scheamtics for some of the HP 3.5" disk untis, for example the HP9121 (for the single-head drive) and the 9114A (for the double-head drive). I think some bits will be relevant The spindle motor is the upper PCB. It's clearly not the stnadard spindle motor becuaswe that has a 7 pin connector to ythe logic board nad yours has 8 pins (this is the connector along the front edge fo the logic board). I think the white wire at one end is 'extra'. I see from your later photos that you've removed the disk holder assembly. THis is one of the few things I know of that when you come to reassemble it you do not tighten the screws in a diagonal pattern 'like torquing donw the cylinder head on an engine'. It's better to do up the 2 screws on one side and then the 2 on the other. Anyway, npow that you've removed the disk holder, it's easy to get the motur out. First remvoe the little plastic senort arms that detect the disk and the write-protect hole. They're held on by E-clips, but they are aalos spring loaded, so hold them in place when removing the clip. Then lfit off the arm and the spring. The motor itslef is held down by 2 screws throguh the PCB (one looks very rusty in the photo). Takt those out nad lift the motor off the chassis. Now, there seem to be 3 ICs on the motor PCB, same as the standard one. tHe 2 SIL packages (black plastic strips with 9 pins in a row along the bottom edge) are a dual op-amp and the speed control PLL. The modifed DIL package at the front labelled TA7259 is the motor controlelr I've been mentioning. I hve checked, you can get a data sheet on that from http://www.datasheetarchive.com// I don't know how different the motro is from the standard one. My guess is that the extrra wire is for speed control (the standard motor runs at 600rpm always). It owuld be interesting to know what it connects to, and if there are any track cuts or modifications to the PCB. I notice the flexible PCB coming out of the top of th mortoe can -- that is the 'FG' (freqeucny gnnerator) coil and is used to sense the speed of the motor. The stnadard motor will run at the right speed if you jsut connect 12V to the +12V anf ground connection (get it the right way round, or you will eb replacing chips). The +5V line is only need for the sensors ad nteh motor-on control is taken to be on if it's not connected. I have no idea, alas, if the modified motor beahves i nthe same way. I also don't know how easy to convince the machin eto start the motor wit hthe drive partially dismantled (disk holder remocved). If you can. and can get the motor to run by flicking it round under these conditions, I wouild look at the mtoro coil outputs of the driver IC and the hall device inputs with a 'scope. You are looking for oen that looks 'odd'. FWIW, I've had these motors toally apart, I've replaced ICs and hall devices, I've also tapped out the bearings and replaced those. it is possible. > > I've looked up the ICs on the bottom circuit board. Apart from the > microprocessor(?) these are: The PQFP (swaure, flat} IC is a 4-bit microcontroller, custmm-programemd to control this drive. > > sn74ls26n - QUAD 2 -INPUT NAND BUFFER > mc3470ap- Floppy Disk Read Amplifier System > UPa2003c - NPN SILICON EPITAXIAL DARLINGTON TRANSISTOR ARRAY > 8402 - rectifier? No, that's the data code. That's almost cvertainly a 20 pin PAL chip. > 74ls05n - Hex inverters with open collector outputs 14-PDIP 0 to 70 > 74ls04n - Hex inverter > sn75452BP - Dual Very-high Speed, High-current Peripheral Drivers > ne592n - differential video amplifiers > > Would one of the last two be the ones controlling the motor? No. The video amplifier is part of the read circuit (the head in this drive give a very low output signal, there's even a step-up transformer on the PCB -- that's the silver cylindrical can). The 75453 and UPa2003 are drives for the stepper motor, eject motor, and so on. > > By snooping around I've managed to find a service manual for the OA-D32V > 400k drives on bitsavers. However, this covers an earlier model. The Lisa Different, rather than earlier. The OA-D32V is the 'stnadard' drive running a ta constant 600 rpm and with an interface similar to a Shugart floppy drive, althpugh on a 26 pin connector with somewhat odd pinouts. > 2 has a OA-D34V and (as far as I can see) the circuit board at the bottom is > quite different. I'm not techo though, and I struggle to understand what's The PCB is different because the Apple drive interface is different to the 'standard' one. > written there. There may be hints but I can't interpret them. The manual is > at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sony/Sony_OA-D32_Microfloppy_Service_Nov83.pdf > > I will re-read it again and see if it points to anything I can look at. > There is a troubleshooting chart but you seem to need some test equipment. Yes, unfortunately, you can't sense the signals directly (or at least I can't :-)). You need test gear to see what's going on. As I've said many times, the ONLY way to truely repair something is to understand how it should work and then to make measurements on the faulty one to see what it acutally is doing. And then to comapre what ouu measure whith what should be going on and thus deduce what has failed. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 13:04:00 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:04:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <4D509A40.6090505@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 7, 11 06:20:00 pm Message-ID: > Some good PDF doc's from that era. Happy digging. > http://www.pmillett.com/index.html Thanks.. .There looks to be some interesting stuff there, including that GEC book. Alas the Mullard one isn't there/ -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 8 12:38:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 18:38:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: from "Dan Gahlinger" at Feb 7, 11 06:15:25 pm Message-ID: > > > That makes no sense. > sniping does not drive up prices like early bidding does. Of coursei it does. If I (early bid) $50 for an item with an opening bid of $5, say, and somebody snipes me at the last minute with a $20 bid, then the price I have to pay has been driven up. > > anyone who knows fleabay knows that bidding early has the only effect of dr= > iving the price up. > there's no point in bidding early=2C none at all. > > You're not going to win=2C and you have no hope of winning=2C regardless of= > the outcome=2C Strange... Obviously I have imagined all the items I've won by bidding early. > unless you're going to drive the price up so high that you've priced it out= > of the market. I don;t get this at all. If I bid early, you can't know what my high bid is (it may well be a _lot_ more tan the openning bid). So you can't be sure ot outbid me if you snipe. Nor can you possibly know how much something is worth to me, so how the heck can you say I've priced it out of the market. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 8 14:09:29 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 12:09:29 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 8, at 7:16 AM, Richard wrote: > Philip Belben writes: > >>> There is no grayscale in a storage tube monitor. There's charge >>> stored on the tube, or there isn't. >> >> Sorry, I wasn't clear. I didn't mean greyscale stored on the tube. I >> meant, can it read out how much of a pixel is covered by drawn lines >> and >> interpret that as greyscale? > > Well, the whole process in the original equipment is analog. You're > not going to see aliasing due to discrete sampling, because there > isn't any. You will see aliasing due to the bandwidth of the analog > signals, but there isn't anything changing so fast that its outside > the bandwidth of the circuitry. > >> For that matter, how big are the pixels? > > There aren't any pixels. I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were characterised in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very early days of TV. A book I have here ("Principles of Television Engineering" / Fink / McGraw-Hill/ 1940) presents the scientific and engineering background to TV systems at the time. The phrase "picture element" is used throughout. The then-current transmission standard was characterised as 441 lines by 400-600 picture elements per line, "that 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 elements must be sent in a second", etc. The characteristics of other mediums such as photographs are also presented in terms of picture elements. When "picture element" started getting abbreviated to "pixel", I don't know. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 8 14:29:45 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:29:45 -0600 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D51A7B9.4000106@jbrain.com> On 2/8/2011 12:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> That makes no sense. >> sniping does not drive up prices like early bidding does. > Of coursei it does. If I (early bid) $50 for an item with an opening bid > of $5, say, and somebody snipes me at the last minute with a $20 bid, > then the price I have to pay has been driven up. This is not a function of sniping. If the $20 bidder was an early bidder, you still would have won at the same amount. By definition, assuming snipers would have bid either way, sniping cannot push prices up more than early bidding. If every sniped bidder bid early, either the item sells for the maximum bid placed during round 1, or someone puts in a round 2-n higher maximum bid. Thus, as the time to place 2-n round bids approaches 0 (the snipe), the maximum bid settles on the maximum of round 1 bidders amounts. Jim From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 8 14:48:41 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:48:41 -0500 Subject: Historical Computer Society In-Reply-To: <5FDC0371-4B86-43F4-8C25-B4CD61B89FF1@classiccomputing.com> References: <5FDC0371-4B86-43F4-8C25-B4CD61B89FF1@classiccomputing.com> Message-ID: <4D51AC29.8040206@snarc.net> > I actually agree Smart decision. :) > One of the names to consider is SEARCH (pretty cool) - > > S = south > E = east > A = area > R = retro > C = computing > H = hobbyists > > That's a lot like MARCH, so you guys don't mind? As long as you enunciate. :) "ER" and "AR" are different sounds. Suggestion -- called it SAVE -- Southeast Area Vintage Electronics -- that's not as precise re: electronics vs. computers, but it makes a useful word, re: "saving" things. From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Tue Feb 8 15:00:13 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:00:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D51A7B9.4000106@jbrain.com> References: <4D51A7B9.4000106@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <288092.75524.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The problem as I see it (also a sniper here) is that you give people ample opportunity to bid big on an item if you bid early, thus driving the price up. You can certainly place a well-intended early bid that is in-the-money (and I have in the past), but that doesn't preclude the possibility of people who are not well-intentioned bidding up an item they had no intention of buying, whether they be an agent working on behalf of the buyer or otherwise. The other case is that people hardly ever use the proxy format of the eBay bidding process even if they bid early. They either don't trust it or don't understand it. I don't trust it personally, not because it's technically flawed, but because of the interaction of other bidders. In practice it seems that people make incremental "max" bids up to their REAL maximum (because most people understand the incremental bidding process used in live auctions), rather than placing their ultimate maximum bid right at the beginning. If you bid late, you are more likely to get the item that you want at a lesser price, simply because you significantly reduce the possibility of shill bidders or subsequent bids at the end. I don't really understand the strategy behind placing an early bid. I might well be willing to pay up to $200 for a particular item, but I'd much rather pay $50 if I can get away with it. :) If you're placing a well-intentioned max bid at the end of the auction or the beginning, the most you're willing to pay is still the same, isn't it? The only cases I can think of that it works in your favor to bid early really is if you place a bid and someone places an identical bid (assuming no subsequent bids) you are the high bidder, and the other is if you're not around to watch the end of the auction. If eBay was more like a single sealed bid that's tabulated at the end of the auction, I think it'd be a better system. The system that's in place now encourages nickel and dime bidding. Or, "man, this thing is going too cheap... hey Bob... bid $150 on this auction for me." A real auction you can see who you're bidding against, in eBay it's hard to do. ________________________________ From: Jim Brain To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 2:29:45 PM Subject: Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! On 2/8/2011 12:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> That makes no sense. >> sniping does not drive up prices like early bidding does. > Of coursei it does. If I (early bid) $50 for an item with an opening bid > of $5, say, and somebody snipes me at the last minute with a $20 bid, > then the price I have to pay has been driven up. This is not a function of sniping. If the $20 bidder was an early bidder, you still would have won at the same amount. By definition, assuming snipers would have bid either way, sniping cannot push prices up more than early bidding. If every sniped bidder bid early, either the item sells for the maximum bid placed during round 1, or someone puts in a round 2-n higher maximum bid. Thus, as the time to place 2-n round bids approaches 0 (the snipe), the maximum bid settles on the maximum of round 1 bidders amounts. Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 8 15:09:53 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:09:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <201102081346.p18DkT6r015702@floodgap.com> References: <201102081346.p18DkT6r015702@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20110208125943.Y61617@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Sarah Palin didn't create an auction site with easily warped rules -- but > Meg Whitman did her penance, given that a solid proportion of her fortune > got poured down the drain in the governor's race. > (from the camp that puts down a solid bid and walks away if a sniper decides > they're willing to bid more) eBay was already in existence, with ~30 people before Meg Whitman was hired on. That isn't MY definition of "create". Although she spent more than anyone has ever spent on any political campaign EVER, there was no B.I.N. and no opportunity to snipe, and she still couldn't buy it. And, she was putting my pension at risk! I must not be participating in auctions that are as vicious as what some of y'all are participating in. I almost always put a token bid in at the beginning, just to let "competing" bidders know that I am interested. I am not desperate enough to "need to win and keep the price down" enough to feel the need to turn it into a "sealed bid" auction (closest to the results of eBay with sniping) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Feb 8 15:17:30 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:17:30 -0500 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! References: <4D51A7B9.4000106@jbrain.com> <288092.75524.qm@web83905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have never seen a reason to snipe on ebay since I don't bid on high priced rarities ever. Sniping at the end will only save you from incremental bidders who end up bidding more then they normally would because they didn't like being outbid (same people who end up not paying at the end anyway when they come to their senses). Bidding early on commodity or super niche stuff is not a problem because their will either be another auction around the corner for the commodity, or nobody else will want it anyway for the niche. Sometimes just having a bid keeps other people from bidding. You do have to worry about shill bidders from the seller trying to feel out your max bid. Snipers have to deal with sellers who cancel an auction early because the item is going too cheap and there is no reserve, so they don't get a bid in anyway. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 9 12:48:24 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 10:48:24 -0800 Subject: Using whiteboard cleaner on floppies Message-ID: <4D52E178.2040303@bitsavers.org> I thought this was an interesting discovery if you're willing to sacrifice the media to recover some data. I've been trying to read some nasty old 360k 5" floppies circa early 80's, the kind that squeek and strip the oxide off in nice little rings. These were probably made from the same nasty stuff they made early 80's magtapes out of. Thinking this might be a dirt/lubrication issue, I tried applying whiteboard cleaner to the disk while still in its sleeve using a lint-free cloth across the slot on both sides, rotate, repeat around the whole disk, and after a few head cleanings was able to recover the data (and the squeeking stops). Weber Costello Markerboard Cleaner (from the label, after water) octylphenoxy polyethoxyethanol trisodium phosphate ethylene glycol monobutyl ether it's probably the glycol acting as a lubricant From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 9 07:01:41 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 08:01:41 -0500 Subject: Any recent posts? Message-ID: <4D529035.2080101@compsys.to> Is the list active? There were no posts this morning? Please disregard if you see this post. Jerome Fine From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Feb 9 04:17:06 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:17:06 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> For that matter, how big are the pixels? >> >> There aren't any pixels. > > I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog > process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an historical > footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were characterised in terms of > "picture elements" going back to the very early days of TV. That's exactly the point: those Tektronix terminals/computers are not raster-scan systems, you draw a line from here to there. The only "limitation" is the addressing range for the start and end point (either 10 or 12 bits). Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's the printer that determines the scanning speed and the resolution of the rasterization process. > systems at the time. The phrase "picture element" is used throughout. The > then-current transmission standard was characterised as 441 lines by 400-600 > picture elements per line, "that 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 elements must be sent ... which is not quite correct since the horizontal "resolution" depends on the bandwidth, the beam spot size and the size of the screen surface. > in a second", etc. The characteristics of other mediums such as photographs > are also presented in terms of picture elements. ?!? I know that the grain size matters, but where can I find those picture elements on a film strip? Christian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 9 02:53:01 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 21:53:01 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: Message-ID: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> I think I know what you mean now. That TA 7259 is the chip underneath the large brown clip/cover at the front of the drive. I'm not sure how to remove the latter though? I seems solidly glued in covering the pins of the chip. If I could remove this, I could measure the signals on these pins when I tap the switch (thereby fooling the drive into thinking a disk is present). Or do you need to remove the motor, switches, plugs and then slide the motor PCB out towards the rear until it's clear of that clip/cover. Thinking about it, that's probably what's needed. In that case, it won't be so easy to test as everything will be in bits. Terry > Now, there seem to be 3 ICs on the motor PCB, same as the standard one. > tHe 2 SIL packages (black plastic strips with 9 pins in a row along the > bottom edge) are a dual op-amp and the speed control PLL. The modifed DIL > package at the front labelled TA7259 is the motor controlelr I've been > mentioning. I hve checked, you can get a data sheet on that from > http://www.datasheetarchive.com// From wmaddox at pacbell.net Wed Feb 9 01:46:09 2011 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 23:46:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Gould electrostatic printer/plotter Message-ID: <959246.25374.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The weekend before last, I picked up a Gould 5010 electrostatic printer/plotter along with some PDP8 gear. The technology is interesting. It writes an electrostatic charge directly on the paper, and develops with a liquid toner "fountain" as the paper exits the machine. Mechanically, it's quite simple, with just a single stepper motor to advance the paper and a pump to recirculate the toner. According to some patents I found on the web which appear to match the configuration of the write head, the pins are activated by a clever coincident-current addressing scheme that avoids the need to dedicate a driver to each pin. The product line was eventually bought by Calcomp, which continued to manufacture electrostatic plotters into the 90's. A successor company still provides paper and toner for some models, but the 5010 is not mentioned on the website, and I have no idea whether supplies made for the newer models will work in the 5010. The printer looks reasonably good on the outside. Internally, there are a few rusted places that could use cleaning and repainting, but it doesn't look like it's structurally or functionally compromised in that respect. The vinyl tubing for the toner circulation, on the other hand, has turned brittle and most of it is missing, and it looks like there has been some toner leakage/spillage at some time in the past. Most distressingly, the electrostatic write head is gunked up and/or corroded, and I suspect it is no good. The printer is a free-standing unit, but not particularly heavy. Two guys lifted it into the back of a minivan without difficulty. Before I strip this thing for parts (it has a couple of nice power supplies, among others), is there any interest in it? Does anyone else have such a printer and need parts? --Bill From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 23:53:38 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 23:53:38 -0600 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms Message-ID: What started out as a novelty search for an old IBM COBOL coding sheet has turned into a serious-ish quest: I am now looking for any original IBM (and other) coding forms so that I might build a collection on our documents site. As for IBM, Google has helped me uncover the part/form # GX28-1464 for the COBOL form, GX09-0011 for FORTRAN and GX21-9279 for Assembler. More useful would be part # GX21-9818, which is listed as "Coding Forms Masters" and may contain these and other forms. If anyone has these and can a) scan them with high quality or b) lend/send them to me for scanning, I'd much appreciate it. Of course, if my Google-fu has failed and they're already out there, pointers to the downloads will do, too. -- jht From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Feb 8 22:13:25 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 23:13:25 -0500 Subject: New Corvus Mac Disk images... Message-ID: <4D521465.3010202@atarimuseum.com> Hi, Okay, well I was told that my original images zipped up on the PC side lost the resource forks and other nuances of the Mac Disks with which they were written to originally... So, I went back to the Powermac, it creaked and moaned a bit due to some battery issues and corrupted HD, after a reinstall of OS 8.1 (7.5.3 just didn't want to cooperate today, though I did finally did take all of the 19 damned disk images and make an Install CD image of it all finally) I got the Mac back up and running... I know, I know... Mac's after OS 7.6 can't read 400K diskettes... WRONG! They can, but with a little help from a wonderful utility I found on macgarden.org called Diskdup + 2.9.2 (the earlier 1.3.2 does NOT work)... Read all of the disks in perfectly, even allows you to save them in its diskdup format or in Apple diskcopy format... So I saved them in both, plus I made SEA images as well just for good measure. Its late, I'm tired, and I need to catch up with some CPLD design work I'm doing, so this wonderful side project was a great diversion for a couple of days, but back to work... I will revisit my Corvus website in a week or so, make the needed clean up and link changes, plus add in some great photo's of a killer Concept setup sent to my by a former Corvus engineer... so I'll be working on the Corvus site more in a week or so... in the meantime: http://www.corvusmuseum.com/software/mac/corvus_mac_disks.sitx Curt From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 8 19:46:19 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:46:19 -0800 Subject: seeking gutta-percha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 7, at 8:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I was wondering if someone out there knows how to acquire smallish > quantities of gutta-percha for antique-ish fiddling around with. I'm > looking for sheets, blocks, or bars of the stuff; not the tiny needles > sold by dental suppliers. Just for amusement, we received some at our radio-musuem: http://www3.telus.net/radiomuseum/vtour/bamfield/index.html Photo about 3/4 of the way down "cable splicer's tool chest". About a 100 years old though. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 8 17:09:50 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:09:50 -0700 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D51CD3E.9010005@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/8/2011 12:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Some good PDF doc's from that era. Happy digging. >> http://www.pmillett.com/index.html > > Thanks.. .There looks to be some interesting stuff there, including that > GEC book. Alas the Mullard one isn't there/ But it is online here. http://www.r-type.org/static/mull-cir.htm > -tony Ben. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 8 16:15:21 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:15:21 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article , Brent Hilpert writes: > On 2011 Feb 8, at 7:16 AM, Richard wrote: > > Philip Belben writes: > >> For that matter, how big are the pixels? > > > > There aren't any pixels. > > I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog > process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an > historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were characterised > in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very early days of TV. Sure, but its not a TV system. There is some limit to the resolution of a 463{1,2} printer. There is also some limit to the resolution of a DVST in a Tektronix product. The former is more limited to the printing mechanism and the latter is more limited to the electron beam width and addressability circuitry in the storage tube. The way "pixel" is used canonically these days, there aren't any in a storage tube system. Nor are there any pixels in a refresh vector display. There is the idea of the smallest addressable unit on the screen, but that's not the same as a pixel. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 9 19:23:13 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 01:23:13 +0000 Subject: 3B1 Unix PC emulator -- keyboard driver (half) done Message-ID: <4D533E01.9060307@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just finished adding a rudimentary keyboard handler to my 3B1 emulator (http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu). Problem is... it doesn't quite work. I can get into the test software, and if I hit a key it'll drop into the main menu. Problem is, when I get to the main menu, it doesn't seem to recognise the commands I'm entering. That is, I can enter a menu item number (e.g. 6 for Goto Subsystem Menu), it echoes to screen correctly, but then the screen clears and I'm thrown unceremoniously back to the main menu, instead of getting passed along to the subsystem menu... This happens with all the possible menu selections, and the "expert mode" command ("s4test"). Is anyone aware of any quirks with the test software which might cause this type of behaviour? Does anyone happen to have a 3B1 and an RS232 protocol analyser (or a logic analyser with RS232 decoding)? It'd be really handy to have some dumps of the data sent and received by the 6850 ACIA (the keyboard comms controller chip) when the keyboard is initialised, and when various keys are pressed... (If I had a 3B1 of my own, it'd be on the table downstairs with a keyboard sniffer cable and my HP logic analyser mainframe plugged in...) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 19:30:07 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:30:07 -0600 Subject: Any recent posts? In-Reply-To: <4D529035.2080101@compsys.to> References: <4D529035.2080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D533F9F.60204@gmail.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Is the list active? There were no posts this morning? > Please disregard if you see this post. Last message I saw was dated 2:48pm yesterday; three have just come through now though (one of them yours). The website for www.classiccmp.org was down earlier, as was manx and bitsavers - they all still seem to be out of action at the moment (although they're quickly giving me an "unable to establish connection" error now, where before they'd just sit there for several minutes and time out) cheers! Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 19:34:52 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:34:52 -0600 Subject: Using whiteboard cleaner on floppies In-Reply-To: <4D52E178.2040303@bitsavers.org> References: <4D52E178.2040303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D5340BC.2020300@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > I thought this was an interesting discovery if you're willing to > sacrifice the media to recover > some data. > > I've been trying to read some nasty old 360k 5" floppies circa early > 80's, the kind that squeek and > strip the oxide off in nice little rings. These were probably made from > the same nasty stuff they made > early 80's magtapes out of. [snip] Thanks - a useful tip! Last time I had that squeaking problem, it was brief - just long enough for the media to completely tear one of the heads out of the drive :-( (Parrot 5.25" media from early 80s IIRC - and not "obviously" dirty) cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 9 21:00:59 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:00:59 -0800 Subject: Using whiteboard cleaner on floppies In-Reply-To: <4D52E178.2040303@bitsavers.org> References: <4D52E178.2040303@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D52E46B.14857.1FD00FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Feb 2011 at 10:48, Al Kossow wrote: > it's probably the glycol acting as a lubricant I wonder if plain old auto antifreeze (diluted a bit) would work just as well? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 9 21:03:06 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:03:06 -0800 Subject: New Corvus Mac Disk images... In-Reply-To: <4D521465.3010202@atarimuseum.com> References: <4D521465.3010202@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D53556A.3010407@bitsavers.org> On 2/8/11 8:13 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Hi, > > photo's of a killer Concept setup sent to my by a former Corvus engineer It's good to know the stuff is still out there. I wonder if it is the same engineer that I gave all of my Concept stuff to about 15 years ago (he was also an ex Altos engineer) From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 9 21:40:14 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 22:40:14 -0500 Subject: New Corvus Mac Disk images... In-Reply-To: <4D53556A.3010407@bitsavers.org> References: <4D521465.3010202@atarimuseum.com> <4D53556A.3010407@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D535E1E.7040900@atarimuseum.com> Just got an email, apparently the link I posted yesterday with the .sitx extension isn't working, most likely the webserver just doesn't like publishing it and its giving a 404 error... I think the server doesn't like a 4 char extension. I changed it for .sit and now you can access/save the file http://www.corvusmuseum.com/software/mac/corvus_mac_disks.sit Curt Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/8/11 8:13 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Hi, >> >> photo's of a killer Concept setup sent to my by a former Corvus engineer > > It's good to know the stuff is still out there. I wonder if it is the > same > engineer that I gave all of my Concept stuff to about 15 years ago (he > was > also an ex Altos engineer) > > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 9 21:45:14 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 22:45:14 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> References: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <4D535F4A.1050804@atarimuseum.com> Its been great watching the progress of this topic... I pulled out an old photo of my room from I think 1989 when I owned a Lisa (aka Mac XL) http://www.atarimuseum.com/misc/curt-room-nov_1989.jpg Curt terry stewart wrote: > I think I know what you mean now. That TA 7259 is the chip underneath > the large brown clip/cover at the front of the drive. I'm not sure > how to remove the latter though? I seems solidly glued in covering > the pins of the chip. If I could remove this, I could measure the > signals on these pins when I tap the switch (thereby fooling the drive > into thinking a disk is present). > > Or do you need to remove the motor, switches, plugs and then slide the > motor PCB out towards the rear until it's clear of that clip/cover. > Thinking about it, that's probably what's needed. In that case, it > won't be so easy to test as everything will be in bits. > > Terry > >> Now, there seem to be 3 ICs on the motor PCB, same as the standard one. >> tHe 2 SIL packages (black plastic strips with 9 pins in a row along the >> bottom edge) are a dual op-amp and the speed control PLL. The modifed >> DIL >> package at the front labelled TA7259 is the motor controlelr I've been >> mentioning. I hve checked, you can get a data sheet on that from >> http://www.datasheetarchive.com// > > > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Feb 9 22:01:39 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:01:39 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> <4D535F4A.1050804@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: That's cool Kurt, It's a pity I don't own a Profile drive. Then I could give my Lisa 2 a "hat' like yours. I've bitten the bullet and bought an X/Profile emulator to replace my Widget drive. As I have one floppy drive that works well that will give me ONE working Lisa 2/10 which can run the Lisa Office suite. Although it won't SOUND like a genuine Lisa 2/10 did in the day, it's close enough for me (and really the only practical way forward). This means the broken floppy drive is the only remaining issue. If I can get at least ONE of my two faulty drives going I'll have two working Lisas, the Lisa 2/10 and the Lisa 2. Then I'll probably need to sell the latter to pay for what I spent on the X/Profile emulator for the former (-: Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 4:45 PM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > Its been great watching the progress of this topic... I pulled out an old > photo of my room from I think 1989 when I owned a Lisa (aka Mac XL) > > http://www.atarimuseum.com/misc/curt-room-nov_1989.jpg > > > Curt > > > > terry stewart wrote: >> I think I know what you mean now. That TA 7259 is the chip underneath >> the large brown clip/cover at the front of the drive. I'm not sure how >> to remove the latter though? I seems solidly glued in covering the pins >> of the chip. If I could remove this, I could measure the signals on >> these pins when I tap the switch (thereby fooling the drive into thinking >> a disk is present). >> >> Or do you need to remove the motor, switches, plugs and then slide the >> motor PCB out towards the rear until it's clear of that clip/cover. >> Thinking about it, that's probably what's needed. In that case, it won't >> be so easy to test as everything will be in bits. >> >> Terry >> >>> Now, there seem to be 3 ICs on the motor PCB, same as the standard one. >>> tHe 2 SIL packages (black plastic strips with 9 pins in a row along the >>> bottom edge) are a dual op-amp and the speed control PLL. The modifed >>> DIL >>> package at the front labelled TA7259 is the motor controlelr I've been >>> mentioning. I hve checked, you can get a data sheet on that from >>> http://www.datasheetarchive.com// >> >> >> > From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Feb 9 22:20:11 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 23:20:11 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: References: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> <4D535F4A.1050804@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4D53677B.5090405@atarimuseum.com> I wish I'd kept it.... There was a guy, I think in Queens that (according to him) bought out all of the Lisa parts that were headed for scrap... I kinda believed it because when I went over to his house, it was just desks with Lisa's all over them, all up and running.... (Sun Remarketing???) Not sure, its been a long time. I remember buying a bunch of Parallel cards, some localtalk connectors and the Mac/XL rom upgrade (I think) and the Mac/XL OS diskette set from him. I did a lot of desktop publishing work for a small company that did "For Sale by Owner" weekly publications, did everything in Quark Express, that was a lot of fun... I miss the old Lisa... it was a great computer and I got a lot of use out of it. Curt Terry Stewart wrote: > That's cool Kurt, > > It's a pity I don't own a Profile drive. Then I could give my Lisa 2 > a "hat' like yours. > > I've bitten the bullet and bought an X/Profile emulator to replace my > Widget drive. As I have one floppy drive that works well that will > give me ONE working Lisa 2/10 which can run the Lisa Office suite. > Although it won't SOUND like a genuine Lisa 2/10 did in the day, it's > close enough for me (and really the only practical way forward). > > This means the broken floppy drive is the only remaining issue. If I > can get at least ONE of my two faulty drives going I'll have two > working Lisas, the Lisa 2/10 and the Lisa 2. Then I'll probably need > to sell the latter to pay for what I spent on the X/Profile emulator > for the former (-: > > Terry > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 4:45 PM > Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > > >> Its been great watching the progress of this topic... I pulled out an >> old photo of my room from I think 1989 when I owned a Lisa (aka Mac XL) >> >> http://www.atarimuseum.com/misc/curt-room-nov_1989.jpg >> >> >> Curt >> >> >> >> terry stewart wrote: >>> I think I know what you mean now. That TA 7259 is the chip >>> underneath the large brown clip/cover at the front of the drive. >>> I'm not sure how to remove the latter though? I seems solidly glued >>> in covering the pins of the chip. If I could remove this, I could >>> measure the signals on these pins when I tap the switch (thereby >>> fooling the drive into thinking a disk is present). >>> >>> Or do you need to remove the motor, switches, plugs and then slide >>> the motor PCB out towards the rear until it's clear of that >>> clip/cover. Thinking about it, that's probably what's needed. In >>> that case, it won't be so easy to test as everything will be in bits. >>> >>> Terry >>> >>>> Now, there seem to be 3 ICs on the motor PCB, same as the standard >>>> one. >>>> tHe 2 SIL packages (black plastic strips with 9 pins in a row along >>>> the >>>> bottom edge) are a dual op-amp and the speed control PLL. The >>>> modifed DIL >>>> package at the front labelled TA7259 is the motor controlelr I've been >>>> mentioning. I hve checked, you can get a data sheet on that from >>>> http://www.datasheetarchive.com// >>> >>> >>> >> > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 22:21:45 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 20:21:45 -0800 Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? Message-ID: I was going to do some VAX VMS tinkering today and my hobbyist licenses have expired. I thought this is where I got the licenses last time around but now the domain name appears to have expired: http://www.openvmshobbyist.com Anyone know anything about that? Is there somewhere else to get licenses now? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 9 22:57:22 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 20:57:22 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <34b784944ba60f6a85f4400e01d82153@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 8, at 2:15 PM, Richard wrote: > Brent Hilpert writes: >> On 2011 Feb 8, at 7:16 AM, Richard wrote: >>> Philip Belben writes: >>>> For that matter, how big are the pixels? >>> >>> There aren't any pixels. >> >> I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog >> process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an >> historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were >> characterised >> in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very early days of >> TV. > > Sure, but its not a TV system. There is some limit to the resolution > of a 463{1,2} printer. There is also some limit to the resolution of > a DVST in a Tektronix product. The former is more limited to the > printing mechanism and the latter is more limited to the electron beam > width and addressability circuitry in the storage tube. > > The way "pixel" is used canonically these days, there aren't any in a > storage tube system. Nor are there any pixels in a refresh vector > display. There is the idea of the smallest addressable unit on the > screen, but that's not the same as a pixel. See next message. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 9 22:57:33 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 20:57:33 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 9, at 2:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>> For that matter, how big are the pixels? >>> There aren't any pixels. >> >> I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the >> analog process in the system under discussion, but I would like to >> add an historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were >> characterised in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very >> early days of TV. > > That's exactly the point: those Tektronix terminals/computers are not > raster-scan systems, you draw a line from here to there. The only > "limitation" is the addressing range for the start and end point > (either 10 or 12 bits). Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's the > printer that determines the scanning speed and the resolution of the > rasterization process. (And ultimately that 10 or 12 bits does place a maximum on the V*H resolution of the drawn image.) >> systems at the time. The phrase "picture element" is used throughout. >> The then-current transmission standard was characterised as 441 lines >> by 400-600 picture elements per line, "that 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 >> elements must be sent > > ... which is not quite correct since the horizontal "resolution" > depends on the bandwidth, the beam spot size and the size of the > screen surface. I don't know why you would say it's not correct. The numbers are out of the book and refer to the abilities of the then-current RMA TV Committee standards for transmission, they account for things like channel bandwidth. >> in a second", etc. The characteristics of other mediums such as >> photographs are also presented in terms of picture elements. > > ?!? I know that the grain size matters, but where can I find those > picture elements on a film strip? It is a slightly different meaning than 'pixel' today, it's a measure of resolution: that which can be resolved; rather than a fixed grid of points on the image medium. It's not an assertion by me, I'm just pointing out how these things were characterised in 1940: even for analog systems they did so in terms of a matrix or discrete count of "picture elements". There is a whole chapter in the book on image analysis and it is more complex than what I present here, it doesn't correspond 1:1 in the V dimension to the number of scan lines for example. "A single frame of 35mm motion picture film contains about 500,000 picture elements when exposed, developed and projected in the usual manner." "A fine 'contact' photographic print of 8*10in dimensions contains as many as 50,000,000 picture elements." From rivie at ridgenet.net Wed Feb 9 23:48:38 2011 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 21:48:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > > I thought this is where I got the licenses last time around but now > the domain name appears to have expired: > http://www.openvmshobbyist.com > > Anyone know anything about that? Is there somewhere else to get licenses now? There's been a bit of traffic about it over on the comp.os.vms newsgroup. As I understand it, the person who owns the domain name has gone out of touch. The domain name has expired. The people running the site have so far been unable to convince GoDaddy to let them do anything about it, as they are not the owners of the name. Have you poked about over at montagar.com? I believe the openvms hobbyist domain name was a redirect to http://montagar.com/licenses.php -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From spedraja at ono.com Thu Feb 10 01:18:37 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 08:18:37 +0100 Subject: 3B1 Unix PC emulator -- keyboard driver (half) done In-Reply-To: <4D533E01.9060307@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D533E01.9060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: In fact I got one in home, Philip, together to my workdesk. It works, but I'm not sure how could I help you. Let me know, please. Greetings Sergio 2011/2/10 Philip Pemberton > Hi guys, > > I've just finished adding a rudimentary keyboard handler to my 3B1 emulator > (http://www.philpem.me.uk/code/3b1emu). Problem is... it doesn't quite > work. > > I can get into the test software, and if I hit a key it'll drop into the > main menu. Problem is, when I get to the main menu, it doesn't seem to > recognise the commands I'm entering. That is, I can enter a menu item number > (e.g. 6 for Goto Subsystem Menu), it echoes to screen correctly, but > then the screen clears and I'm thrown unceremoniously back to the main menu, > instead of getting passed along to the subsystem menu... This happens with > all the possible menu selections, and the "expert mode" command ("s4test"). > > Is anyone aware of any quirks with the test software which might cause this > type of behaviour? > > Does anyone happen to have a 3B1 and an RS232 protocol analyser (or a logic > analyser with RS232 decoding)? It'd be really handy to have some dumps of > the data sent and received by the 6850 ACIA (the keyboard comms controller > chip) when the keyboard is initialised, and when various keys are pressed... > > (If I had a 3B1 of my own, it'd be on the table downstairs with a keyboard > sniffer cable and my HP logic analyser mainframe plugged in...) > > Thanks, > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Feb 10 02:23:34 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:23:34 +1300 Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress References: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> Message-ID: <89E15E3EB7254811AC29FED586DC0A69@vshack> Ah, I,ve figured out how to remove this motor board now. The clip-looking piece of metal at the front is indeed a clip and once the screws are undone you can unclip the clip from the casing so that the whole lot, clip,board and motor comes up all as one unit (I should take photos of this for others who might have to take these apart). The clip is attached (soldered over) two of the outer pins of the suspected TA 7259 (assuming I'm on the right track). If I can desolder the clip (so I can get to the pins), bridge the two pins it bridged then partly reassemble I might have a drive where i can activate the motor and test the signals on those pins. *heating soldering iron up* Terry (Tez) ----- Original Message ----- From: "terry stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress >I think I know what you mean now. That TA 7259 is the chip underneath the >large brown clip/cover at the front of the drive. I'm not sure how to >remove the latter though? I seems solidly glued in covering the pins of >the chip. If I could remove this, I could measure the signals on these >pins when I tap the switch (thereby fooling the drive into thinking a disk >is present). > > Or do you need to remove the motor, switches, plugs and then slide the > motor PCB out towards the rear until it's clear of that clip/cover. > Thinking about it, that's probably what's needed. In that case, it won't > be so easy to test as everything will be in bits. > > Terry From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 10 03:53:20 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:53:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> That's exactly the point: those Tektronix terminals/computers are not >> raster-scan systems, you draw a line from here to there. The only >> "limitation" is the addressing range for the start and end point (either 10 >> or 12 bits). Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's the printer that >> determines the scanning speed and the resolution of the rasterization >> process. > > (And ultimately that 10 or 12 bits does place a maximum on the V*H resolution > of the drawn image.) No, you've got that wrong. The bits only affect the starting and end point of a vector but *not* the vector itself! >>> systems at the time. The phrase "picture element" is used throughout. The >>> then-current transmission standard was characterised as 441 lines by >>> 400-600 picture elements per line, "that 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 elements >>> must be sent >> >> ... which is not quite correct since the horizontal "resolution" depends on >> the bandwidth, the beam spot size and the size of the screen surface. > > I don't know why you would say it's not correct. The numbers are out of the > book and refer to the abilities of the then-current RMA TV Committee > standards for transmission, they account for things like channel bandwidth. Sure, and the newspaper is always right ;-) Since TV is/was purely analog, the horizontal resolution only depend on the bandwith and the beam focus. >>> in a second", etc. The characteristics of other mediums such as >>> photographs are also presented in terms of picture elements. >> >> ?!? I know that the grain size matters, but where can I find those picture >> elements on a film strip? > > It is a slightly different meaning than 'pixel' today, it's a measure of > resolution: that which can be resolved; rather than a fixed grid of points on > the image medium. > > It's not an assertion by me, I'm just pointing out how these things were > characterised in 1940: even for analog systems they did so in terms of a > matrix or discrete count of "picture elements". There is a whole chapter in No, they didn't. Maybe in the US, but usually they refered to the number of scan lines ("vertical resolution" if you like) and the bandwidth (e.g. 5.5 MHz here or around 10 MHz in France). > the book on image analysis and it is more complex than what I present here, > it doesn't correspond 1:1 in the V dimension to the number of scan lines for > example. Well, the vertical dimension depends of the size of the CRT, the number of scan lines remains the same (625 lines according to the CCIR). Some of these lines are "drawn" outside the visible area of the CRT as they contain the vertical sync and the blanking period (the B and S in (C)VBS). > "A single frame of 35mm motion picture film contains about 500,000 picture > elements when exposed, developed and projected in the usual manner." > "A fine 'contact' photographic print of 8*10in dimensions contains as many as > 50,000,000 picture elements." Sounds like marketing figures... Christian From terry at webweavers.co.nz Thu Feb 10 04:28:45 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:28:45 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! References: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> <89E15E3EB7254811AC29FED586DC0A69@vshack> Message-ID: <9C4782AA634D4C1DA1CBC41AE60808D0@vshack> Ok, more progress and some interesting data.. I managed to remove the clip so I could get to the pins, partly assemble the drive and plug it into the Lisa I don't have a scope at the moment. I borrow one occasionally but right now it's with its owner. What I did then was measure the voltages on the pins when the drive was showing the following symptom.... 1. (disk detect) switch is off but drive spins when on. 2. Switch is on and drive spinning 3. switch is off, (and drive will not spin on switch on) 4. Switch was on and drive not spinning What seemed to differ between 1+2 (spin) and 3+4 (no spin) was pin 6 (c-phase drive output terminal), pin 7 (b-phase drive output terminal) and pin 9 (a phase drive output terminal). Where the motor refused to turn with the switch on, these values were almost zero (with switch on or off). When the motor DID turn on switch on these were around 12v (again with switch on and off). There is more. If I measured the voltage (switch off) and slowly rotated the wheel manually values on the three pins stayed mainly at 12v. but occasionally dropped to zero for a few degrees of turn, then quickly back to 12 as I rotated. In a 360 deg rotation, there were four of these "dead" (0V) areas at right angles to each other (approx 3, 6, 9 and 12 oclock). Whenever the wheel was positioned so the voltage was zero on these pins, switching the drive on had no effect. When it was 12v, the motor sprang into life when the disk detect switch was pressed. Certainly this would seem to fit into Tony's theory. However, I'm not sure what phase drive outputs really mean in this context.? From the data above is it enough to conclude this is a damaged chip? Or could it be the motor windings themselves? I've taken voltage readings on all of the chips, but these three drive output terminal pins are the only ones that show any difference with respect to the "spins" or "doesn't spin" status. What do you think? Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Terry Stewart" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 9:23 PM Subject: Re: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress > Ah, I,ve figured out how to remove this motor board now. The clip-looking > piece of metal at the front is indeed a clip and once the screws are > undone you can unclip the clip from the casing so that the whole lot, > clip,board and motor comes up all as one unit (I should take photos of > this for others who might have to take these apart). > > The clip is attached (soldered over) two of the outer pins of the > suspected TA 7259 (assuming I'm on the right track). If I can desolder > the clip (so I can get to the pins), bridge the two pins it bridged then > partly reassemble I might have a drive where i can activate the motor and > test the signals on those pins. > > *heating soldering iron up* From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Feb 10 05:23:11 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:23:11 +0100 (CET) Subject: Any recent posts? In-Reply-To: <4D529035.2080101@compsys.to> References: <4D529035.2080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Feb 2011, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Is the list active? There were no posts this morning? The server went down and still partially is. This is what I get right now: rsync: failed to connect to bitsavers.org: Connection refused (146) Christian From vintagecoder at aol.com Thu Feb 10 05:59:14 2011 From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 11:59:14 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 90, Issue 19 [Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102101159.p1ABxIc8024679@imr-ma01.mx.aol.com> Hi Jeff, I have found several on bitsavers.org and maybe one other place. There may be some overlap with what you found but I would be willing to email them to you if you're interested. They're whoppers, about 1M a piece. I guess that is nothing today, but this is my first post and I don't want to start sending attachments to the list. It usually takes right about a week for me to become persona non-grata and I don't want to give anybody an excuse to change the timetable. I don't like change. So the best thing is for you to get them now before I get thrown out of here. I have about 6 different coding forms that I can find at the moment. I could swear I had an RPG coding form but I cannot find it and anyway I've been trying to cut down. I have 3 assembler forms including one in German or Swiss (both Greek to me) and one for System/3. The others are for COBOL and FORTRAN and a weird print layout form for a 150 character width page. I don't know who came up with that abomination since where I come from everybody knows anything past 132 columns isn't worth reading. I am constantly trying to find a way to deal with the huge quantity of archival stuff I have and haven't succeeded until now. There may be more hidden somewhere. I would like to say "Hello" to the list members and thank the list owner for providing the list and the website owner for providing the web site. My background is large IBM systems but I am interested in just about anything that lights up, hums, smokes, or goes bang when you get the wires twisted the wrong way. I am interested in programming languages, usually the older the better although IBM (mainframe) assembler will always be my favorite. At the moment I'm on a retro computing spree trying to learn how to code in DOS assembler. I am having a hard time finding books for that online. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 10 06:49:34 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 12:49:34 +0000 Subject: 3B1 Unix PC emulator -- keyboard driver (half) done In-Reply-To: References: <4D533E01.9060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D53DEDE.1000306@philpem.me.uk> On 10/02/11 07:18, SPC wrote: > In fact I got one in home, Philip, together to my workdesk. It works, but > I'm not sure how could I help you. Let me know, please. The easiest way I can think of to get a keyboard-data dump would be something along the lines of: - Attach an RS232 protocol analyser (or a logic analyser with RS232 decoding, e.g. the Salae Logic) to the RX and TX pins on the 6850 ACIA chip. - Plug the keyboard in, insert the Diagnostics disc (Foundation set disc 1), and boot the 3B1. - Wait for the memory check screen, count to five, then press SPACE. - Pick one of the sub-menus (e.g. the Subsystem menu) -- type in its number, followed by RETURN. - Press 0 to get back to the main menu - Type p4test to get to the Expert screen - Exit the Expert screen and reboot (7 ). - Stop the logic analyser and remove the Diags floppy. This should give me more than enough information to fix the bugs in the keyboard driver... The reason I suggested the Saleae Logic was because it stores transition data to the host PC, and has onboard RS232 decoding (not to mention the fact that the Logic software will run without the hardware and still allow you to use the protocol decoders...) A HP analyser should serve the same purpose -- set it to Transitional Timing mode (so it doesn't waste all the ACQ memory on blank space), trigger on falling edge, pre-trigger buffer to 1% (which if memory serves is the minimum on the 16500B), and save the output as a CSV. I've got an app (somewhere!) which can convert a HP 16500B CSV to a VCD file which I can then load into GtkWave to analyse. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Feb 10 08:50:43 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:50:43 -0500 Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: If it's expired, someone else should be able to grab it quite easily, if anyone here is up to the task, that is > Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 21:48:38 -0800 > From: rivie at ridgenet.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > > > > I thought this is where I got the licenses last time around but now > > the domain name appears to have expired: > > http://www.openvmshobbyist.com > > > > Anyone know anything about that? Is there somewhere else to get licenses now? > > There's been a bit of traffic about it over on the comp.os.vms > newsgroup. As I understand it, the person who owns the domain name has > gone out of touch. The domain name has expired. The people running the > site have so far been unable to convince GoDaddy to let them do anything > about it, as they are not the owners of the name. > > Have you poked about over at montagar.com? I believe the openvms > hobbyist domain name was a redirect to http://montagar.com/licenses.php > -- > roger ivie > rivie at ridgenet.net From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 08:54:29 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 08:54:29 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201102101459.p1AExZDv096311@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 10:57 PM 2/9/2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >It is a slightly different meaning than 'pixel' today, it's a measure of resolution: that which can be resolved; rather than a fixed grid of points on the image medium. And when you're talking about NTSC color, the black-and-white info has a very different resolution and capability than the color. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 08:46:42 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 08:46:42 -0600 Subject: seeking gutta-percha In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102101515.p1AFF8w0097068@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:46 PM 2/8/2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >On 2011 Feb 7, at 8:56 PM, David Griffith wrote: >> >>I was wondering if someone out there knows how to acquire smallish quantities of gutta-percha for antique-ish fiddling around with. I'm looking for sheets, blocks, or bars of the stuff; not the tiny needles sold by dental suppliers. New, in retro golf balls? http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2003/12/22/356079/index.htm Bulk or dental points, on Ali Baba: http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/gutta-percha.html http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/378855535/Gutta_Percha.html Another reference says dentists have a gutta-percha gun - similar in principle to a hot-glue gun. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 09:14:49 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:14:49 -0600 Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102101515.p1AFF8k8097069@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 08:50 AM 2/10/2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >If it's expired, someone else should be able to grab it quite easily, >if anyone here is up to the task, that is I've never been able to grab an expired domain "quite easily". What's your trick? - John From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Feb 10 09:16:24 2011 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:16:24 -0600 Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2011, at 8:50 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > If it's expired, someone else should be able to grab it quite easily, > if anyone here is up to the task, that is > Not true. GoDaddy (and most registrars) have deals with domain speculators, and they get first pick of expired domains. That's why GoDaddy won't let just anyone renew the domain. From kenziem at sympatico.ca Thu Feb 10 09:37:30 2011 From: kenziem at sympatico.ca (kenziem at sympatico.ca) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:37:30 +0000 Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? In-Reply-To: References: , , , Message-ID: I just confirmed that this link works just fine http://montagar.com/licenses.php In addition to a encompass or other accepted user group membership you need the cpu type and serial number to get the license > From: dgahling at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? > Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:50:43 -0500 > > > If it's expired, someone else should be able to grab it quite easily, > if anyone here is up to the task, that is > > > Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 21:48:38 -0800 > > From: rivie at ridgenet.net > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? > > > > On Wed, 9 Feb 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > > Have you poked about over at montagar.com? I believe the openvms > > hobbyist domain name was a redirect to http://montagar.com/licenses.php > > -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 10 12:35:46 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:35:46 +0000 Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... In-Reply-To: <4D4E2AC3.1020104@telus.net> References: <4D4E036F.1010800@philpem.me.uk> <4D4E0EFE.9030808@philpem.me.uk> <4D4E2AC3.1020104@telus.net> Message-ID: <4D543002.4090800@philpem.me.uk> On 06/02/11 04:59, John Robertson wrote: > When you removed the old socket did you carefully examine the legs of > the pins to see if you accidentally pulled out any feed through tubes? I didn't see any.. although from experience they can be quite small. I'll see about pulling the socket and continuity-checking between the top and bottom sides. Interestingly there are a few areas of the board which aren't the same brown colour -- there are bits of black around the pins, which look like they're inside the PCB. > What did you do to clean off the corrosion? I hope you used a mild acid > such as white vinegar to neutralize the alkaline (base) leakage then > rinse off with water... Yup. White vinegar brushed onto all the corroded parts, left for a minute or two, rinsed with water, then a final clean with Chemtronics Flux-off to drive off any remaining water or grime. After I soldered the new socket in place, the whole board got a dunk in isopropyl, including scrubbing all the dirt out from inside and between the ISA slots, chips, etc. That thing had more dust bunnies than the Playboy mansion... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 10 12:35:46 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:35:46 +0000 Subject: Debugging a 386 motherboard... In-Reply-To: <4D4E2AC3.1020104@telus.net> References: <4D4E036F.1010800@philpem.me.uk> <4D4E0EFE.9030808@philpem.me.uk> <4D4E2AC3.1020104@telus.net> Message-ID: <4D543002.4090800@philpem.me.uk> On 06/02/11 04:59, John Robertson wrote: > When you removed the old socket did you carefully examine the legs of > the pins to see if you accidentally pulled out any feed through tubes? I didn't see any.. although from experience they can be quite small. I'll see about pulling the socket and continuity-checking between the top and bottom sides. Interestingly there are a few areas of the board which aren't the same brown colour -- there are bits of black around the pins, which look like they're inside the PCB. > What did you do to clean off the corrosion? I hope you used a mild acid > such as white vinegar to neutralize the alkaline (base) leakage then > rinse off with water... Yup. White vinegar brushed onto all the corroded parts, left for a minute or two, rinsed with water, then a final clean with Chemtronics Flux-off to drive off any remaining water or grime. After I soldered the new socket in place, the whole board got a dunk in isopropyl, including scrubbing all the dirt out from inside and between the ISA slots, chips, etc. That thing had more dust bunnies than the Playboy mansion... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 10 12:56:27 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:56:27 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6d5cbeac97ce9f496b6a8c87285104aa@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 10, at 1:53 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 9 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>> That's exactly the point: those Tektronix terminals/computers are >>> not raster-scan systems, you draw a line from here to there. The >>> only "limitation" is the addressing range for the start and end >>> point (either 10 or 12 bits). Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's >>> the printer that determines the scanning speed and the resolution of >>> the rasterization process. >> >> (And ultimately that 10 or 12 bits does place a maximum on the V*H >> resolution of the drawn image.) > > No, you've got that wrong. The bits only affect the starting and end > point of a vector but *not* the vector itself! I am well aware of how vector displays work. >>>> systems at the time. The phrase "picture element" is used >>>> throughout. The then-current transmission standard was >>>> characterised as 441 lines by 400-600 picture elements per line, >>>> "that 3,000,000 to 6,000,000 elements must be sent >>> ... which is not quite correct since the horizontal "resolution" >>> depends on the bandwidth, the beam spot size and the size of the >>> screen surface. >> >> I don't know why you would say it's not correct. The numbers are out >> of the book and refer to the abilities of the then-current RMA TV >> Committee standards for transmission, they account for things like >> channel bandwidth. > > Sure, and the newspaper is always right ;-) > Since TV is/was purely analog, the horizontal resolution only depend > on the bandwith and the beam focus. > >>>> in a second", etc. The characteristics of other mediums such as >>>> photographs are also presented in terms of picture elements. >>> ?!? I know that the grain size matters, but where can I find those >>> picture elements on a film strip? >> >> It is a slightly different meaning than 'pixel' today, it's a measure >> of resolution: that which can be resolved; rather than a fixed grid >> of points on the image medium. >> >> It's not an assertion by me, I'm just pointing out how these things >> were characterised in 1940: even for analog systems they did so in >> terms of a matrix or discrete count of "picture elements". There is a >> whole chapter in > > No, they didn't. Maybe in the US, but usually they refered to the > number of scan lines ("vertical resolution" if you like) and the > bandwidth (e.g. 5.5 MHz here or around 10 MHz in France). >> the book on image analysis and it is more complex than what I present >> here, it doesn't correspond 1:1 in the V dimension to the number of >> scan lines for example. > > Well, the vertical dimension depends of the size of the CRT, the > number of scan lines remains the same (625 lines according to the > CCIR). Some of these lines are "drawn" outside the visible area of the > CRT as they contain the vertical sync and the blanking period (the B > and S in (C)VBS). > >> "A single frame of 35mm motion picture film contains about 500,000 >> picture elements when exposed, developed and projected in the usual >> manner." >> "A fine 'contact' photographic print of 8*10in dimensions contains as >> many as 50,000,000 picture elements." > > Sounds like marketing figures... Geez. Systems here were described in terms of scan lines and bandwidth too. But the more detailed analyses being done at the time involved as I have quoted. The book was not a newspaper, nor is it a marketing brochure or paperback tract. It's a 500-page hardcover book from a reputable publisher, targeted at engineers, giving a quite thorough technical compendium of the state of the art at the time. I would be surprised if "picture element" originated with this book, not that that would obviate my point. You can lead a horse to water... From legalize at xmission.com Thu Feb 10 10:41:46 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:41:46 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article , Christian Corti writes: > [...] Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's the printer that > determines the scanning speed and the resolution of the rasterization > process. Correct. The analog ramps to scan out the tube are sent by the printer. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 14:51:43 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:51:43 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I am now looking for any original > IBM (and other) coding forms so that I might build a collection on our > documents site. Do FORTRAN coding forms count? I could probably spare a few CDC ones. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 13:58:28 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:58:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Feb 8, 11 03:15:21 pm Message-ID: > > > In article , > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > On 2011 Feb 8, at 7:16 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Philip Belben writes: > > >> For that matter, how big are the pixels? > > > > > > There aren't any pixels. > > > > I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog > > process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an > > historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were characterised > > in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very early days of TV. > > Sure, but its not a TV system. There is some limit to the resolution > of a 463{1,2} printer. There is also some limit to the resolution of Actualy, I would say the 4631 printer is very close to being a TV system. As I understnad it (and it's been some years since I looked at the schematics), the printer casues an electron beam (from the flood gun?) to be scanned over the storage target in a raster. This produces a signal indicating the charge level on the target for that point. And the printer has a 1-dimentinal CRT whic his sanned in synchronism to the raster lines, its image is recorded o nthe apepr. The vertical 'deflection' in the printer is obtained by advancing the paper. No matter how the image in the storage tube is put there, the printer is a raster devvice. There is a limited vertical resolution from the number of lines in taht readout raster. I assume the horizontal resolution is limited only by the bandwidth of the system. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 14:01:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:01:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <4D51CD3E.9010005@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Feb 8, 11 04:09:50 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/8/2011 12:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Some good PDF doc's from that era. Happy digging. > >> http://www.pmillett.com/index.html > > > > Thanks.. .There looks to be some interesting stuff there, including that > > GEC book. Alas the Mullard one isn't there/ > But it is online here. > http://www.r-type.org/static/mull-cir.htm Is it? Firstly, I could find several links to download bits of the book, but no link to download the whole thing and I don't think all sections are available to download separately. I couldn't find the series-heater-chain AC/DC mains amplidier or the tape amplifier for example. Secondly, this is not the book we are talkign about. This is the second one that the OP already has. For the time, there is an earlier book, with only 2 main amplifiers (5-10 and 5-20), their preamps and an FM tuner/. No tape amplifier, no 3-3, etc. And the FM tuner was removed from the later book which is why the OP wants to find the older one I believe. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 14:14:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:14:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Gould electrostatic printer/plotter In-Reply-To: <959246.25374.qm@web82607.mail.mud.yahoo.com> from "William Maddox" at Feb 8, 11 11:46:09 pm Message-ID: > > The weekend before last, I picked up a Gould 5010 electrostatic > printer/plotter along with some PDP8 gear. > > The technology is interesting. It writes an electrostatic charge > directly on the paper, and develops with a liquid toner "fountain" as The name I associate with that sort of thing is 'Versatec'. I have a V80 on my PERQ, itworks just like that, building up a charge image on the paper and then passing liquid toner over it. > the paper exits the machine. Mechanically, it's quite simple, with just > a single stepper motor to advance the paper and a pump to recirculate > the toner. According to some patents I found on the web which appear to > match the configuration of the write head, the pins are activated by a > clever coincident-current addressing scheme that avoids the need to It's conicident _voltage_, surely. Electrostatics tends to involve votlges rather than currnets :-). Versatec did that too, with a row of nib electrodes under the paper and a divided backing electrode above it. That way several 'nibs' could be driven from one driver stage. >From waht I rememebr the electorde drives in teh V80 are custom hybrid circutis, the same for the nibs and the back electrods. The former drives are referneces to logic ground, the latter to a -ve-few-hundred-volts rail. I seem to rememebr optoisolated between the inputs of thos drives (possibly there's a shift register involved to reduce the number odsignals that need to be passed through isolatoprs) and the rest of the logic. > dedicate a driver to each pin. > > The product line was eventually bought by Calcomp, which continued to > manufacture electrostatic plotters into the 90's. A successor company > still provides paper and toner for some models, but the 5010 is not > mentioned on the website, and I have no idea whether supplies made for > the newer models will work in the 5010. > > The printer looks reasonably good on the outside. Internally, there > are a few rusted places that could use cleaning and repainting, but it > doesn't look like it's structurally or functionally compromised in that > respect. The vinyl tubing for the toner circulation, on the other hand, > has turned brittle and most of it is missing, and it looks like there White spirit (turps substitue, etc) seems to work well for cleaning up the toner system in thse printers. I unblocked the toner pump in muy V80 by taking it apaart, soaking the tube parts in white spirit and then trying the suck-it-and-see method. I 'saw' that the toner tastes horrible... > has been some toner leakage/spillage at some time in the past. Most > distressingly, the electrostatic write head is gunked up and/or > corroded, and I suspect it is no good. The printer is a free-standing Pity it's not a V80, I actually have a spare nib PCB for that. > unit, but not particularly heavy. Two guys lifted it into the back of a > minivan without difficulty. > > Before I strip this thing for parts (it has a couple of nice power > supplies, among others), is there any interest in it? Does anyone else > have such a printer and need parts? This sort of comment botthers me. I guess it's because I am a hardware guy first and foremost that I find something like this printer to be as intersting as, a failry normal computer. If nto more so. Sure it's useless for printing, but thento be fair a PDP8 is not particularly useful for computing these days (sure, it's fun to restore, sure it's educational, but it's not a number-cruncher). I think it it were mine, I would get a lot of enjoyment geting that electrostatic printer/plotter to run again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 14:20:21 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:20:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <2189A51A0EA2461E88CB0F1249380A91@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Feb 9, 11 09:53:01 pm Message-ID: > > I think I know what you mean now. That TA 7259 is the chip underneath the > large brown clip/cover at the front of the drive. I'm not sure how to Yes. That 'clip' looks to be a piece of copper sheet acting as a heatsink. The standard drive doesn't have it, perhaps the Apple drive with its variable speed ssytem caused the driver chip to run hotter or something. Iwoudl guess it's soldered to the 2 tabs of the TA7259 chip. These tabs are the electrical ground conenctions to the chip and also connect ot a metal plate inside the backage that the silicon chip itself it mounted on, to carry heat away from the chip. Do you have the TA7259 datasheet? It's on datasheetarchive (http://www,datasheetarchive.com/), just type'TA7259' in the search box. > remove the latter though? I seems solidly glued in covering the pins of the > chip. If I could remove this, I could measure the signals on these pins > when I tap the switch (thereby fooling the drive into thinking a disk is > present). > > Or do you need to remove the motor, switches, plugs and then slide the motor > PCB out towards the rear until it's clear of that clip/cover. Thinking > about it, that's probably what's needed. In that case, it won't be so easy > to test as everything will be in bits. No, the spidnle motor certainly comes out upwards. it has to. The speindle bearing ftis in a hole in the chassis casting. I would try removing the sensor arms as I said last nigth and taking out the 2 scress. See if the mtoro is free, if not, see what is holding it. The heatsink will come out with the motor. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 14:21:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:21:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Using whiteboard cleaner on floppies In-Reply-To: <4D52E178.2040303@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Feb 9, 11 10:48:24 am Message-ID: [...] > Weber Costello Markerboard Cleaner (from the label, after water) > > octylphenoxy polyethoxyethanol > trisodium phosphate > ethylene glycol > monobutyl ether > > it's probably the glycol acting as a lubricant I am just wondering what that might do to the drive heads, though... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 14:33:17 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:33:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Apple Lisa 2/10 - Progress In-Reply-To: <89E15E3EB7254811AC29FED586DC0A69@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 10, 11 09:23:34 pm Message-ID: > > Ah, I,ve figured out how to remove this motor board now. The clip-looking > piece of metal at the front is indeed a clip and once the screws are undone Ah, so it clips under the chassis too... Was there any heat-sink compound (white gunge) between them> > you can unclip the clip from the casing so that the whole lot, clip,board > and motor comes up all as one unit (I should take photos of this for others > who might have to take these apart). > > The clip is attached (soldered over) two of the outer pins of the suspected > TA 7259 (assuming I'm on the right track). If I can desolder the clip (so I I would assume it's soldered to the tabs, If so, you don't need to link them together, they are internallty linked inside the chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 10 14:46:06 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:46:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! In-Reply-To: <9C4782AA634D4C1DA1CBC41AE60808D0@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 10, 11 11:28:45 pm Message-ID: > > Ok, more progress and some interesting data.. > > I managed to remove the clip so I could get to the pins, partly assemble the > drive and plug it into the Lisa > > I don't have a scope at the moment. I borrow one occasionally but right now > it's with its owner. What I did then was measure the voltages on the pins > when the drive was showing the following symptom.... > > 1. (disk detect) switch is off but drive spins when on. > 2. Switch is on and drive spinning > > 3. switch is off, (and drive will not spin on switch on) > 4. Switch was on and drive not spinning > > What seemed to differ between 1+2 (spin) and 3+4 (no spin) was pin 6 > (c-phase drive output terminal), pin 7 (b-phase drive output terminal) and > pin 9 (a phase drive output terminal). Where the motor refused to turn with > the switch on, these values were almost zero (with switch on or off). When > the motor DID turn on switch on these were around 12v (again with switch on > and off). > > There is more. If I measured the voltage (switch off) and slowly rotated > the wheel manually values on the three pins stayed mainly at 12v. but > occasionally dropped to zero for a few degrees of turn, then quickly back to > 12 as I rotated. In a 360 deg rotation, there were four of these "dead" > (0V) areas at right angles to each other (approx 3, 6, 9 and 12 oclock). > Whenever the wheel was positioned so the voltage was zero on these pins, > switching the drive on had no effect. When it was 12v, the motor sprang > into life when the disk detect switch was pressed. > > Certainly this would seem to fit into Tony's theory. However, I'm not sure > what phase drive outputs really mean in this context.? From the data above > is it enough to conclude this is a damaged chip? Or could it be the motor > windings themselves? It could be the chip, certainly, I doubt it's the windings. IIRC the widings are connected in a 'star' ('Wye') configuration to the 3 outputs, see the HP drive schemcatics I pointed you to for details. If I cam right, you could check the resistance between the 3 motor driver ouptus (6,7,9) with the drive power remoced, they should all appaer to be shorted to each other. However, it's also ppossibloe that one of the hall sensors has failed. Theseare little 4 terminal parts that detelct the position of the motor and cause the chip to drive the rigth coils. IIRC, they are connected to pins 15,16,1,2,3,4[1] of the chip. With the motor supposed to be stopped, connect a voltbeeter between grounf and each of those pins (if I have rememebred them right, checkl the data sheet) in turn and slowly turn the spidnle. You should see a samll change in voltage for each pin, it shoud 'flick' up and down as you turn the spindle. If one or two are not doing this, suspect the hall device. [1] Be careful with the pin mubmbering if you are working from one of my HP drive scheramtics. I said the chip has 14 pins and 2 tabs. Toshiba say th chip has 16 pins, including the tabs. So the pin numbers are different. FWWI. om all the HP drives I've repaired, I've had to rpelace one fo the TA7259 chips and one hall device (in different drives). I notce that one of the screews was badly corroded. Is there any damage to the PCB tracks in that area? An open connection could account for your problems. To get to the hall effect devices if you hae to replace one, you have to displandle the motro itslef. You will see a flexible PCB coming out of hte mtoor can with a 3 pin (?) header soldered to it and to the motor PCB. Deesolder this on the motor PCB (NOT the flexible PCB),. When it is free, benmd up the tabs on th bottom of the motor itself and then lift off the casing includign the FG coil. Then the rotor just pulls out upwards revealing the coils and the hall deivces. One question for you. Where does the white wire from thr motor connector go? Is it soldered to some point o nthe bototm of the PCB, if so, where? -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Feb 10 15:21:20 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 21:21:20 -0000 Subject: PSU for MicroVAX 3400 Not Faulty But Not Working In-Reply-To: <037701cbc533$4700f480$d502dd80$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <8E0BC3C83D3C481AB77A337567EFF3A6@ANTONIOPC> Rob Jarratt [robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] wrote: > However, I would have thought that a 0 ohm measurement > in-circuit would indicate a shorted capacitor because there > would surely not be any point designing a circuit where both > ends of the capacitor are connected together? All you know is that *something* is presenting zero ohms between those two points. Tony gave an example earlier of where that can happen while not being a fault (an LC tuned circuit). That's not likely to be the case here. However, any thing between those two points could be the culprit. So if that capacitor is sitting between ground and an IC pin and the IC is shorted internally, then the cap could easily be fine. > That capacitor > also measured differently on a working board so it was > clearly suspect. However when I de-soldered it, it turned out > to be open circuit. The resistance in-circuit was not > absolutely 0 though, although it had seemed negligibly close, > so it must have been the surrounding load as has been suggested to me. Or in removing the cap you removed an unintended solder short or your original measurement was off or ... > Is there a simple way to find shorted caps in-circuit? Would > an absolutely 0 ohm resistance while in-circuit indicate a > shorted cap for the reason I suggest above? Unless you have the tools to try the method that's been suggested a few times here, then probably not. You've removed the capacitor so now you can test it out of circuit. Many multimeters these days can measure capacitance. (The cheaper ones may well have some limitations re: accuracy and repeatability but if that's all you have they'll at least give you an indication of functionality). If you have an ESR meter, now's the time to check that too. If the cap is a cheap standard one you could try dropping in a new replacement. However, I'd be tempted to trace the path between the two points and seeing what else might be a problem. Antonio From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 15:52:52 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:52:52 -0600 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 2:51 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> I am now looking for any original >> IBM (and other) coding forms so that I might build a collection on our >> documents site. > > Do FORTRAN coding forms count? I could probably spare a few CDC ones. Totally! This has turned into a generic coding and printer and tape forms exercise, so why not? I have IBM FORTRAN but not CDC so that would be great. If you can't scan them, PM me and I'll give you an address for mailing. Thanks! -j From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 16:00:08 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:00:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <201102101459.p1AExZDv096311@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> <201102101459.p1AExZDv096311@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20110210135035.E42361@shell.lmi.net> > >It is a slightly different meaning than 'pixel' today, it's a measure > >of resolution: that which can be resolved; rather than a fixed grid of > >points on the image medium. On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, John Foust wrote: > And when you're talking about NTSC color, the black-and-white info > has a very different resolution and capability than the color. I've missed parts of this thread, but as I understand it, the argument is about using "pixels" when referring to a verctor display, with no raster. ("Vector: n. A carrier that transmits a disease from one party to another") As such, "pixels" doesn't really apply to the line segments. BUT, it is not unreasonable to use "pixels" to refer to the accuracy with which the end-point locations can be specified. And amybe even as one of several possible ways to measure the width of the line segments. Unlike in math, in the real world, "points" and "lines" DO have width (even if only as the "circle of confusion"), and not very many can dance on the point of a pin. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 10 17:27:58 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:27:58 -0800 Subject: Good new about Turbodos Message-ID: <4D54747E.5080204@bitsavers.org> From comp.os.cpm The search is on for sources, time to start turning over rocks... -- From: Per Frejvall Newsgroups: comp.os.cpm Subject: TurboDOS is now free! Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:14:52 +0100 Bearer of good news, it is good to be! Message from Mike Busch, co-founder of Software 2000 and creator of TurboDOS: "Per, Software 2000, Inc. Is no longer enforcing its copyright on TurboDOS. Have fun with it, and thanks for asking. Mike" Unfortunately, they don't have any copies of the sources. We'll have to disassemble if we want to hack it. I will, in a short while, prepare a complete download package and send it to Gaby and Peter Schorn. /per From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 10 17:33:27 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:33:27 -0800 Subject: Jay needs a ZFS expert Message-ID: <4D5475C7.6010807@bitsavers.org> Jay called me a couple of hours ago looking for some help with ZFS. The classiccmp file system is acting up, which of course effects bitsavers and the other hosted sites. I didn't know the mailing list was still working, or I would have posted sooner. From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Thu Feb 10 17:36:14 2011 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:36:14 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> Jason T wrote: > Totally! This has turned into a generic coding and printer and tape > forms exercise, so why not? I have IBM FORTRAN but not CDC so that > would be great. > Has anyone noticed that the size of IBM's coding forms (24 lines x 80 columns) was the same as the size of their terminals (e.g., 3277)? Was this coincidence or intentional? -- Dick Hadsell 203-992-6320 Fax: 203-992-6001 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 1 American Lane, Greenwich, CT 06831-2560 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 17:43:54 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:43:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <20110210154231.I44248@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Richard Hadsell wrote: > Has anyone noticed that the size of IBM's coding forms (24 lines x 80 > columns) was the same as the size of their terminals (e.g., 3277)? Was > this coincidence or intentional? 80 columns goes back to way before their terminals. From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Thu Feb 10 17:48:49 2011 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:48:49 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210154231.I44248@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210154231.I44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > 80 columns goes back to way before their terminals. > Right. I meant that the size of the coding forms might have been used to decide the size of the terminals. -- Dick Hadsell 203-992-6320 Fax: 203-992-6001 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 1 American Lane, Greenwich, CT 06831-2560 From spedraja at ono.com Thu Feb 10 17:58:03 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 00:58:03 +0100 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I did some work about this over two years ago. I took it from inside the PDF in Bitsavers plus other sources. Some items are in good shape but others are strange forms very dirty that only appeared in some old IBM manuals. I had the intention to put it in my website but it remains by now in my hard disk. It's size in storage terms is about 1,26 gb in PDF and BMPs. What do you have in mind with this ? Greetings Sergio 2011/2/9 Jason T > What started out as a novelty search for an old IBM COBOL coding sheet > has turned into a serious-ish quest: I am now looking for any original > IBM (and other) coding forms so that I might build a collection on our > documents site. > > As for IBM, Google has helped me uncover the part/form # GX28-1464 for > the COBOL form, GX09-0011 for FORTRAN and GX21-9279 for Assembler. > More useful would be part # GX21-9818, which is listed as "Coding > Forms Masters" and may contain these and other forms. > > If anyone has these and can a) scan them with high quality or b) > lend/send them to me for scanning, I'd much appreciate it. > > Of course, if my Google-fu has failed and they're already out there, > pointers to the downloads will do, too. > > -- > jht > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 17:59:21 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:59:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Richard Hadsell wrote: > Has anyone noticed that the size of IBM's coding forms (24 lines x 80 > columns) was the same as the size of their terminals (e.g., 3277)? Was > this coincidence or intentional? Absolutely NOT coincidence. First came the cards for data. Those begat coding sheets for one person to write down the content, and another to punch it onto cards. Then came the languages (COBOL, FORTRAN, VALTREP?), many of which had FIXED FORMATs, but based on 80 column cards THSN came the terminals. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 18:02:41 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 16:02:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210154231.I44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <20110210160008.K44248@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Richard Hadsell wrote: > Right. I meant that the size of the coding forms might have been used > to decide the size of the terminals. Absolutely, with a few steps in between, such as the FORTRAN language being designed with a fixed 80 columns. The cards caused a de-facto standardization throughout the Data processing industry. From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Thu Feb 10 18:08:49 2011 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:08:49 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Richard Hadsell wrote: > >> Has anyone noticed that the size of IBM's coding forms (24 lines x 80 >> columns) was the same as the size of their terminals (e.g., 3277)? Was >> this coincidence or intentional? >> > > Absolutely NOT coincidence. > > First came the cards for data. > > Those begat coding sheets for one person to write down the content, and > another to punch it onto cards. > > Then came the languages (COBOL, FORTRAN, VALTREP?), many of which had > FIXED FORMATs, but based on 80 column cards > > THSN came the terminals. > That's the chronological order, and of course the forms were for 80-column cards. But why did the terminals, which replaced cards, have to be 80 columns and, more coincidental, the same number of lines as on a coding sheet? There was never any way to transfer from forms to the terminal, other than by hand. My best guess was only that IBM also printed forms for designing what you wanted to display on the terminal, and they could use exactly the same forms as for FORTRAN, with just some relabeling. That seems lame, but there it was. -- Dick Hadsell 203-992-6320 Fax: 203-992-6001 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 1 American Lane, Greenwich, CT 06831-2560 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 18:41:46 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:41:46 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: > My best guess was only that IBM also printed forms for designing what you > wanted to display on the terminal, and they could use exactly the same forms > as for FORTRAN, with just some relabeling. ?That seems lame, but there it > was. When terminals finally hit the big time (early 1970s), there was still a huge installed base of card technology out there. Disks were very expensive, and disk packs were often in very short supply. It took until the late 1970s for cards to finally fall. During the transition, it only made sense to make the terminal standard adhere to the card standard. For example, imagine if terminals were standardized to 64 columns - what do you do with all the data entry jobs and databases that use columns 65 and up? Modify them? Programmers cost money. Or if terminals had 100 columns - the memory chips inside the tubes were damn expensive, and all those bits for the extra columns would not get used much. An extra couple hundred bucks times hundreds of terminals adds up, and looks really bad when they are not used. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 18:56:01 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 16:56:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <20110210161901.A44248@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Richard Hadsell wrote: > That's the chronological order, and of course the forms were for > 80-column cards. But why did the terminals, which replaced cards, have > to be 80 columns To replace cards, they "obviously" had to be at least 80 columns, and in the early days, any more than that was pushing the limits on screen quality. > and, more coincidental, the same number of lines as on > a coding sheet? There was never any way to transfer from forms to the > terminal, other than by hand. There was also never any PRACTICAL way to transfer from forms to CARDS, other than by hand. But, in most installations, PROGRAMMERS were not permitted to use the keypunch machines, other than for correcting a single card at a time. I had to write everything on forms, and hand them to the keypunchers to punch. The "benefit": It took me longer to hand write than to use a keyboard; there was an extra delay waiting for another department; and one more human in the chain ready and able to add addtional mistakes. > My best guess was only that IBM also printed forms for designing what > you wanted to display on the terminal, and they could use exactly the > same forms as for FORTRAN, with just some relabeling. That seems lame, > but there it was. Yes, in addition to forms for punching cards, there were ALSO forms for designing output (for 407's, printers, etc.). Those were also available for video displays, although like DATA coding forms, they weren't much more than graph paper. Why "lame"? They were designed specifically to replace cards. Why WOULDN'T they keep the existing size and format? Why did they create 80 x 24 monochrome text displays? Why didn't they go straight to 32bit multi-megabyte graphics display? in 3D? Has anybody else ever considered IBM to not be as innovative as they could have been? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 10 18:58:22 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:58:22 -0700 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/10/2011 5:41 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > For example, imagine if terminals were standardized to 64 columns - > what do you do with all the data entry jobs and databases that use > columns 65 and up? Modify them? Programmers cost money. Or if > terminals had 100 columns - the memory chips inside the tubes were > damn expensive, and all those bits for the extra columns would not get > used much. An extra couple hundred bucks times hundreds of terminals > adds up, and looks really bad when they are not used. Did anybody use 96 column terminals? > -- > Will Ben. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 10 19:18:07 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:18:07 -0600 Subject: Phantom of the Floppera Message-ID: <201102110118.p1B1IFLb021724@billY.EZWIND.NET> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmoDLyiQYKw - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 19:23:59 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:23:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, ben wrote: > Did anybody use 96 column terminals? Later - in the 1980s (in the mid to late 1980s, I had 160 x 50!) In the 1970s, anything more than 80 columns cost MONEY! Even getting 80 columns was pushing some limits. That's why early microcomputers, from the beginning, through Apple, Commodore and TRS80 ran less than 80 columns. Of course it didn't help that the bulk of the public used old TV sets. The RCA TV set that Radio Shak modified for the TRS80 model I was not very high resolution. 'round about 1980, better video started to become available. TRS80 model 4 had 80 x 24, and 80 column cards became available for Apple ][. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 10 19:32:43 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:32:43 -0500 Subject: C64 questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102102032.43469.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 20 August 2010 03:10:24 pm JP Hindin wrote: > > On Fri, 20 Aug 2010, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The C64 that I want to use is 27 years old and worked just fine when I last > > > fired it up about 10 years ago. Anyone have any experience with this type > > > of behavior? Is it worthwhile to replace the internal power supply > > > electrolytics or should I build a new power supply for it? Have lots of 5 > > > VDC supplies but don't seem to have a 9 V transformer in my junk box. > > > > If you think it's the power brick (and it might be), you could test > > things by using the 9V AC otuput from that 'brick' (that is unlikely to > > fail in an odd way, it's just the secondary wining of a transformer), > > along with a separate 5V supply connected in placeof the 5V output from > > the brick (in other words, desolder the 5V wire at the C64 conenctor and > > connect a 5V PSU to the C64). If it works, then you know ehre the problem > > lies. > > Further on this, you can also power the '64 up with only the +5VDC. The > 9VAC (as has been mentioned in past) is used primarily for TOD and > cassette port power. If the OP is needing precise timing, this probably > isn't a long-term solution - but if it comes up correctly under +5VDC > (which presumbly can be sourced with relative ease) then you know it's the > brick also. > > For what it is worth. > > - JP Coming in *way* late on this, but I worked on a heck of a lot of C64s. The 9VAC is what eventually leads to both +5V and +12V regulators internal to the 64, 9V in the last revision or two -- if it's not there you won't have proper operation of the VIC chip, and no video. Or sound. What I did with these when seeing that kind of symptom was first off to check those two supplies, easy enough at the regulators, and the +5 coming out of the brick. Then check the 3 or four pins on either side of the PLA at the end furthest from the notch with a scope -- this would be 10, 11, 12, 13, and 15, 16, 17, 18. Pin 14 is ground if I'm remembering right. I've often seen bad outputs here, that wouldn't present a valid high logic level. Or no activity at all where there should have been some. Subsequent to that check I scope the data bus at each of the RAM chips. Usually one of those two things will point to the problem. Occasionally I've run into RAM that was so hot you didn't want to touch it, I suspect that finding this would go hand-in-hand with loading down a power supply rail as well. PLA chips were the single most common failure part with those machines, giving a variety of symptoms. Blank screen was one of them. We also had quite a pile of those bricks, all bad, and sold a lot of aftermarket supplies back in those days as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 10 19:41:52 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:41:52 -0500 Subject: C64-C128 CP-M Cartridge Interest In-Reply-To: <20101224180207.P25970@shell.lmi.net> References: <20101224180207.P25970@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <201102102041.52670.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 24 December 2010 09:19:41 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 24 Dec 2010, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: > > What is needed to CREATE (and not build) a CP/M compatible computer? > > Now it got me puzzled. I have some circuit adaptations of MSX and TRS-80 > > computers, as minimal computers to run CP/M code. But what is needed - > > beyond Z80 and 64K of RAM - to run CPM? Is there any kind of doc discussing > > it? > > You don't NEED 64K. CP/M can run in 16K. But, if you want a decent sized > TPA, you can have 50+ K TPA with 64K, or even 63K TPA with 128K. > > 8080. Yeah, a Z80 is NICE. and FAST! Yes! I remember one time a guy who'd acquired an Osborne 1 with no floppies, so we assisted in his acquiring some. There was a user group that met in the building as well. He was astounded, coming from peecees, how small all those utilieis were. And as reasonably zippy as those 4 MHz machines were, it should be interesting to see how one would be with a faster part -- I remember hearing about a 20 or 25 MHz Z80 a while back, and some other implementations that ran even faster. > and some aps insist on it. I think I have a couple. > But, CP/M can run on 8080, 8085, and anything else, including emulators that > can handle 8080 code. > > > It's too bad that nobody brought up CP/M on the Kyoceras (Radio Shack > model 100, Nec 8200, etc). THAT would have been a project. > Or on the Epson RC20! That would indeed have been interesting. The Epson PX-8 that I have is the furthest I've been in that direction, a model 100 would have been interesting to play with as well. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 19:48:33 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:48:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> Somebody just left an IBM FLOWCHARTING TEMPLATE X20-8020 on the floor in the hallway. Remember when flowcharts were a REQUIRED part of documentation? So, sure enough, we wrote a program that would take a deck of FORTRAN cards and produce a flowchart. It was not a particcularly USABLE flowchart, but it met the "requirement". Perhaps we should couple a flowchart editor/creator with a code generator as our next paradigm :-? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 10 20:05:03 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:05:03 -0800 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210160008.K44248@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com>, <20110210160008.K44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D5428CF.15910.1CB90BE@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2011 at 16:02, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Richard Hadsell wrote: > > Right. I meant that the size of the coding forms might have been > > used to decide the size of the terminals. > > Absolutely, with a few steps in between, such as the FORTRAN language > being designed with a fixed 80 columns. The cards caused a de-facto > standardization throughout the Data processing industry. Actually, 72 columns. 73-80 wasn't used--that may go back to 704 hardwarware, I don't recall. And 1-5 for statement numbers and 6 for continuation, so the actual statement area was 66 columns if you didn't count the label field. The CDC 3290's standard configuration was 50 characters x 20 lines. You could get an option that would give you 80 x 13. Uppercase only, of course. The best the 6602 operator's display could do was 64 lines x 64 columns. That never stopped anyone from using O26 rather than trying to find a spare keypunch. I believe that most of MACE/Kronos was coded using O26 by Greg Mansfield using whatever systems were available on the QA floor. It was the closest thing to a real editing video terminal that most people had. Doubtless there are many other early displays that did not do 80 characters. Heck, my TV Typewriter after modification only did 64 characters (originally it was 32 characters). Cheers, Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 10 20:18:26 2011 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:18:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210154231.I44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: I don't recall who asked for them, but if you'll send me your mailing address I'll send you two full pads of coding forms. One is for COBOL, the other for FORTRAN. They're roughly 13.5" wide by 8.5" high. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 10 20:19:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 18:19:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D5428CF.15910.1CB90BE@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4D547961.8010305@blueskystudios.com>, <20110210160008.K44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D5428CF.15910.1CB90BE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20110210181033.S44248@shell.lmi.net> > > Absolutely, with a few steps in between, such as the FORTRAN language > > being designed with a fixed 80 columns. The cards caused a de-facto > > standardization throughout the Data processing industry. On Thu, 10 Feb 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Actually, 72 columns. 73-80 wasn't used--that may go back to 704 > hardwarware, I don't recall. I have to disagree. Although 73-80 were not used by the COMPILER, they were "reserved", so that you could put a sequence number on your cards. That worked a little better for putting them back into order than the diagonal felt-tip marker lines. Most? FORTRAN coding sheets explicitly included those columns, so that you could specify to the keypunchers what you wanted there. > And 1-5 for statement numbers and 6 for continuation, so the actual > statement area was 66 columns if you didn't count the label field. FORTRAN without the label field?? > The CDC 3290's standard configuration was 50 characters x 20 lines. > You could get an option that would give you 80 x 13. Uppercase only, > of course. Of course. Using lower case means that you are showing off, or trying to whisper. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 10 20:30:40 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:30:40 -0700 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D549F50.3050605@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/10/2011 6:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Somebody just left an IBM FLOWCHARTING TEMPLATE X20-8020 on the floor in > the hallway. > > Remember when flowcharts were a REQUIRED part of documentation? > So, sure enough, we wrote a program that would take a deck of FORTRAN > cards and produce a flowchart. It was not a particcularly USABLE > flowchart, but it met the "requirement". > > Perhaps we should couple a flowchart editor/creator with a code generator > as our next paradigm :-? Only if you remember to number the cards by three ... :) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 20:38:18 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:38:18 -0600 Subject: Phantom of the Floppera In-Reply-To: <201102110118.p1B1IFLb021724@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201102110118.p1B1IFLb021724@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 7:18 PM, John Foust wrote: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmoDLyiQYKw There were programs that (ab)used the 1541 drive head attached to a C64 to make music, but that's three steps beyond. Is the PC speaker helping out, too? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 10 22:26:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 20:26:33 -0800 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210181033.S44248@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4D5428CF.15910.1CB90BE@cclist.sydex.com>, <20110210181033.S44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D5449F9.29618.24D1CAE@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Feb 2011 at 18:19, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have to disagree. Although 73-80 were not used by the COMPILER, > they were "reserved", so that you could put a sequence number on your > cards. That worked a little better for putting them back into order > than the diagonal felt-tip marker lines. Most? FORTRAN coding sheets > explicitly included those columns, so that you could specify to the > keypunchers what you wanted there. Yes, but they weren't part of FORTRAN, or COBOL, or JOVIAL or GPSS; they were used for sequence numbers or dirty jokes. I didn't know of anyone who actually punched sequence numbers by hand. Remember that COBOL used 73-80, but as "program identification"; 1-6 were used for sequence numbers--and checked by most compilers. So naturally, if you had half a brain in your head, you left them blank. Realistically, you put your decks on tape as soon as you could. Most operating systems had source maintenance utilities (e.g. CDC EDITSYM, UPDATE or others), some of which extended the card image past 80 columns, so that very detailed sequence information could be added. If you had to use and keep cards, you punched and interpreted a duplicate deck using your handy-dandy mainframe or unit record gear and inserted sequence numbers automatically. At CDC, we'd use the PSR number as part of the sequence number. Since UPDATE kept all card images, both active and inactive, you could always "YANK" a correction ID set to reverse its effect. While I had several filing cabinets of cards in my office, it was mostly in case some butterfingers in Test and Integration lost the deck (this was long before Unix VCS). ...but back to my original point. The 704, on which FORTRAN was first developed could read only 72 columns of an 80 column card using the 711 reader. You could program (via plugboard) any 72 columns to be read, but that was it. There's a very practical reason why the 72-column FORTRAN statement came about. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 23:44:58 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:44:58 -0600 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 5:58 PM, SPC wrote: > I did some work about this over two years ago. I took it from inside the PDF > in Bitsavers plus other sources. Some items are in good shape but others are > strange forms very dirty that only appeared in some old IBM manuals. > > I had the intention to put it in my website but it remains by now in my hard > disk. It's size in storage terms is about 1,26 gb in PDF and BMPs. > > What do you have in mind with this ? We run a small doc archive at our site http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs. So far it holds only things we have scanned. I figured it would be a fun exercise to gather these old sheets in one place. If you'd like to contribute your scans, I can give you a place to upload them. -j From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 11 00:57:26 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 22:57:26 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <4D546550.7030702@softjar.se> References: <4D546550.7030702@softjar.se> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 10, at 2:23 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > On 02/10/11 21:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2011 Feb 9, at 2:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >>> > On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>>> >>>> For that matter, how big are the pixels? >>>>> >>> There aren't any pixels. >>>> >> >>>> >> I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the >>>> >> analog process in the system under discussion, but I would like >>>> to >>>> >> add an historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were >>>> >> characterised in terms of "picture elements" going back to the >>>> very >>>> >> early days of TV. >>> > >>> > That's exactly the point: those Tektronix terminals/computers are >>> not >>> > raster-scan systems, you draw a line from here to there. The only >>> > "limitation" is the addressing range for the start and end point >>> > (either 10 or 12 bits). Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's the >>> > printer that determines the scanning speed and the resolution of >>> the >>> > rasterization process. >> (And ultimately that 10 or 12 bits does place a maximum on the V*H >> resolution of the drawn image.) > > I hope you understand that a line drawn from one point to another > point does not form discrete points. It will be a straight line, not a > series of discrete pixels along that straight line. No kidding. > You will not the the "traditional" moiree pattern if you were to draw > lines in a spread from a certain point, as you would on a pixel based > display. > > The 12 bit resolution sets a limit to where you can place the beam, > but on a line between points, it can be at coordinates that cannot be > expressed in 12 bit coordinates. As stated in another message, I am well aware of how vector displays work, as well as the implications of that as you state above. From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Fri Feb 11 01:04:17 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 07:04:17 -0000 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Feb 8, 11 03:15:21 pm Message-ID: The picture element measurement consists of the number of horizontal lines multiplied by the horizontal resolution determined by the ability to distinguish the transitions of a square wave as it increases in frequency. Normally it was done by sweeping a square wave, increasing in frequency along each line from left to right. It's really a measure of video bandwidth. My last job as an engineer before moving to DEC was designing character based VDU's. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 10 February 2011 19:58 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project > > > In article , > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > On 2011 Feb 8, at 7:16 AM, Richard wrote: > > > Philip Belben writes: > > >> For that matter, how big are the pixels? > > > > > > There aren't any pixels. > > > > I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog > > process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an > > historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were characterised > > in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very early days of TV. > > Sure, but its not a TV system. There is some limit to the resolution > of a 463{1,2} printer. There is also some limit to the resolution of Actualy, I would say the 4631 printer is very close to being a TV system. As I understnad it (and it's been some years since I looked at the schematics), the printer casues an electron beam (from the flood gun?) to be scanned over the storage target in a raster. This produces a signal indicating the charge level on the target for that point. And the printer has a 1-dimentinal CRT whic his sanned in synchronism to the raster lines, its image is recorded o nthe apepr. The vertical 'deflection' in the printer is obtained by advancing the paper. No matter how the image in the storage tube is put there, the printer is a raster devvice. There is a limited vertical resolution from the number of lines in taht readout raster. I assume the horizontal resolution is limited only by the bandwidth of the system. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 11 01:54:28 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:54:28 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Feb 8, 11 03:15:21 pm Message-ID: <7ab9d82d8699295e15c1242ab86dc6d3@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 10, at 11:04 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > The picture element measurement consists of the number of horizontal > lines > multiplied by the horizontal resolution determined by the ability to > distinguish the transitions of a square wave as it increases in > frequency. This is the basis or principle laid out in the 1940 book for the horizontal resolution. For the vertical they give analyses that reduce the resolution by a factor relative to the number of scan lines. Various other considerations such as worthwhile H/V resolution ratios (in addition to the aspect ratio) are included. > Normally it was done by sweeping a square wave, increasing in frequency > along each line from left to right. > > It's really a measure of video bandwidth. My last job as an engineer > before > moving to DEC was designing character based VDU's. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Fri Feb 11 02:53:45 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 21:53:45 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! Message-ID: <54AFCE753B25471A802D3CB79408453D@vshack> > It could be the chip, certainly, I doubt it's the windings. IIRC the > widings are connected in a 'star' ('Wye') configuration to the 3 outputs, > see the HP drive schemcatics I pointed you to for details. If I cam > right, you could check the resistance between the 3 motor driver ouptus > (6,7,9) with the drive power remoced, they should all appaer to be > shorted to each other. Tony I've looked through past emails and can't seem to find those schematics. Can you point me to them again? The motor driver output pins are not QUITE shorted. There is about 25 ohms resistance showing which flickers between 20 and 30 as I turn the wheel? Normal? > However, it's also ppossibloe that one of the hall sensors has failed. > Theseare little 4 terminal parts that detelct the position of the motor > and cause the chip to drive the rigth coils. IIRC, they are connected to > pins 15,16,1,2,3,4[1] of the chip. With the motor supposed to be stopped, > connect a voltbeeter between grounf and each of those pins (if I have > rememebred them right, checkl the data sheet) in turn and slowly turn the > spidnle. You should see a samll change in voltage for each pin, it shoud > 'flick' up and down as you turn the spindle. If one or two are not doing > this, suspect the hall device. I've found them. On this TA7259P they are pins 1-4 and 13, 14. The voltages do show a variation as the spindle turns. But it's very small. About 0.03 volts and that variation is consistant over all 6 of them. The voltages differ. Pins 1 and 2 are 6.5, pins 3 and 4 are 4.3 and pins 13 and 14 are 8.4v > [1] Be careful with the pin mubmbering if you are working from one of my > HP drive scheramtics. I said the chip has 14 pins and 2 tabs. Toshiba say > th chip has 16 pins, including the tabs. So the pin numbers are > different. The chip I have has 14 pins. > I notce that one of the screews was badly corroded. Is there any damage > to the PCB tracks in that area? An open connection could account for your > problems. > The screw is rusty but the PCB tracks are actually in very good condition. There are no shorts. > One question for you. Where does the white wire from thr motor connector > go? Is it soldered to some point o nthe bototm of the PCB, if so, where? No not soldered to the board. The white wire joins the other wires from the two motor board connectors and goes into an 8-pin socket which plugs into the top of the bottom circuit board. The pins for this can be seen standing upright on the mid-bottom left on the board: http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/lisa2-10-bottom-of-drive-circuit-board-large.jpg The white wire goes to pin 8 which is the pin nearest the bottom (i.e south) of the picture. Well, what do you think Tony? I've found a place in HongKong I can get these TA 7259P ICs for $20 (incl shipping). The IC or the hall sensors? Are there any other tests I can do? I appreciate the detailed help you're giving me here. Terry From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 09:11:22 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:11:22 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 6:36 PM, Richard Hadsell wrote: > Has anyone noticed that the size of IBM's coding forms (24 lines x 80 > columns) was the same as the size of their terminals (e.g., 3277)? ?Was this > coincidence or intentional? As many other have asserted, the 80-column part? Yes. It's also handy for displaying part of a page to be typed at "pica" sizes (10 chars to the inch on a 8.5" page with 0.25" margins). The length, though, took a while to catch up. The VT50 (1975) was 80 columns (its predecessor, the VT05 (1970) was 72, like an ASR-33), but only 12 lines. It was the VT52 (1976) that was AFAIK, DEC's first 80x24 terminal. Over in IBM land, there's the 3277 terminal, which I always thought was 80x24, but I found a mention of a "model 1" with 40x12. There are also a couple of external factors that most likely influenced the path to 80x24 - CRT aspect ratio and memory geometry. Inexpensive CRTs were (are still) 4:3 aspect ratio. The DEC VT50 was 12 lines, but AFAIK, they were double-spaced on the screen, spread out across the horizontal axis, not crushed together (like an unenhanced VT100 in 132-column mode). They certainly didn't go out and make a custom CRT to neatly fit 80x12. Memory geometry comes into play when designing an inexpensive character buffer for the display. If there had been an arbitrary reason to support, say, 80x30, perhaps the designers of the 1970s might have taken a different path, but with 80 columns a preferred width due to previously mentioned factors, 80x12 == 960 bytes (under 1K) and 80x24 == 1920 bytes (under 2K) and further, 80x25 == 2000 bytes (still under 2K, but it was a while until the "25th status line" feature crept in). I was merely a user of terminals in the 1970s, not a designer, but this place is as good as any to find folks who might have been there at the time and can confirm/deny any speculations from their own experience. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 09:30:16 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:30:16 -0500 Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: > Over in IBM land, there's the 3277 terminal, which I always thought > was 80x24, but I found a mention of a "model 1" with 40x12. These odd ones were used as consoles for machines. -- Will From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 11 13:58:27 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 19:58:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! In-Reply-To: <54AFCE753B25471A802D3CB79408453D@vshack> from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 11, 11 09:53:45 pm Message-ID: > > > It could be the chip, certainly, I doubt it's the windings. IIRC the > > widings are connected in a 'star' ('Wye') configuration to the 3 = > outputs, > > see the HP drive schemcatics I pointed you to for details. If I cam > > right, you could check the resistance between the 3 motor driver = > ouptus > > (6,7,9) with the drive power remoced, they should all appaer to be > > shorted to each other. > > Tony I've looked through past emails and can't seem to find those = > schematics. Can you point me to them again? Sure.. Go to http://www.hpmuseum.net/ (the Australian HP msueum site). Follow the obvious links (or just follow the 'docuemtation collection' link from the homepage to find 'my' scheamtics for the HP9114A (not the -B, which uses a totally different drive mechanism), HP9121, HP9222, etc. These are not the Apple-modified drife, of course, they are the normal one I mentioend, but some parts are very similar. In partici4~ular you will find a schemaitc of the 'spindle motor' which uses the TA7259 chip and sounds similar to the one in the Apple drive. > > The motor driver output pins are not QUITE shorted. There is about 25 = > ohms resistance showing which flickers between 20 and 30 as I turn the = > wheel? Normal? That sounds about right. You are measuring the resistance of 2 motor windigns in series, When you turn the spindle, the magnets induce a voltage in the windings, and that;s confusing the ohmmeter a bit. I think th windings look fine. Thinking about it some more, it appears from the data sheet and my measurements that each of the 3 output pins of the chip can be puleld to +12V or ground by transitors in the chip. The speed control works by disabling the lower trnasistors, thuc cutting off the motor current. Which transsitors are turned on is controlled by the hall devices. Now., I _think_ that with the motor powered up but not supposed to be spinning, all the lower transistors will be off, but one of the upperones whould be on. This would mean all the outputs should appear to be close to +12V, no matter where the spindle is. One will be at +12V becasue its transistor (inside the chip) is turned on, the others because nothing is turned on iside the chip, but current will flow through the windings to drive your voltmeter. The fact that you have those 'dead spots' you mentioned suggests that one of the upper transistors is not turning on. Either becuase it's defective (that is, the TA7259 is defective) or because of hall device problems. So your measurements do confirm what I have suspected. > I've found them. On this TA7259P they are pins 1-4 and 13, 14. The = > voltages do show a variation as the spindle turns. But it's very small. = > About 0.03 volts and that variation is consistant over all 6 of them. = > The voltages differ. Pins 1 and 2 are 6.5, pins 3 and 4 are 4.3 and pins = > 13 and 14 are 8.4v That sounds right. The hall drvies have 4 conectors, 2 of them are to pass a current through the device, the other 2 are outputs. It is common to link all the 'current' terminals in series with a resistor connected to each end, and stick the lot across the power supply. That means the standing voltage from each device will be different, depending on where it is in the chain. if all sets of pins show the same sort of variation (and it will be small), I think the TA7259 chip has failed. > > I notce that one of the screews was badly corroded. Is there any = > damage > > to the PCB tracks in that area? An open connection could account for = > your > > problems. > > > > The screw is rusty but the PCB tracks are actually in very good = > condition. There are no shorts. I was more worried about open-circuit probklems (a track corroded through), but you say they look OK There are 3 capacitors connected in a start (`Wye') to the motor winding connections. Ifthey're defective, the back emf from the windings can damage the chip. If you can locate them (again, see the schematic, they might well ahve the same reference), iut would beworth changing them too. > > > One question for you. Where does the white wire from thr motor = > connector > > go? Is it soldered to some point o nthe bototm of the PCB, if so, = > where? > > > No not soldered to the board. The white wire joins the other wires from = > the two motor board connectors and goes into an 8-pin socket which plugs = > into the top of the bottom circuit board. The pins for this can be seen = > standing upright on the mid-bottom left on the board: Sure, I know that end :-). The point is that the standard motor has a 7 pin connector, this white wire is the extra onhe. I am talking about the motor PCB end. 7 of the wires are soldered to the PCB in a row of 3 and a row of 4 IIRC. I couldn't see any sign of that white wire on your photos of the top of the motor PCB, so I am wondering what happens to it. Is it soldered to some point on the underside (solder side) of the motor PCB, if so, where. [...] > Well, what do you think Tony? I've found a place in HongKong I can get = > these TA 7259P ICs for $20 (incl shipping). The IC or the hall sensors? = > Are there any other tests I can do? >From what you've said so far, I would suspect the chip. I might well be wrong, but I think if I'd got to this point I would change the TA7259 and the 3 capacitors I mentioned ans see what happens. > > I appreciate the detailed help you're giving me here. Well, it's more fun than the flamewars :-) -tony From useddec at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 15:11:36 2011 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:11:36 -0600 Subject: Micropolis1355 to 1325 (RD53) conversion Message-ID: I have a few Micropolis 1355 drives I am looking into converting into 1325 drives. Has anyone know how, tried to, or ever done this? Is the HDA the same? Can the logic board be modified, or does it have to be replaced? Any info would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 15:27:57 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:27:57 -0500 Subject: Micropolis1355 to 1325 (RD53) conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:11 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a few Micropolis 1355 drives I am looking into converting into 1325 > drives. Has anyone know how, tried to, or ever done this? > Is the HDA the same? Can the logic board be modified, or does it have to be > replaced? Any info would be greatly appreciated. AFAIK, the 1355 is a 150MB ESDI and the 1325 is a 69MB MFM drive. http://www.mfarris.com/hard_drives/micropolis/micropolis_1355.html http://www.mfarris.com/hard_drives/micropolis/micropolis_1325.html They seem to have the same physical geometry (1024 cyls, 5 platters, 8 heads), so perhaps you could move a set of boards from a 1325 a 1355 HDA, but I've never attempted such a thing. If you have a dead 1325, I would think that as long as the cables in/out of the sealed HDA matched, it would be safe to try - the heads and steppers probably aren't electrically different. In my collection, I have a small number of 1355s that came from the Sun3 era (and the SCSI-ESDI bridge cards to go with) and a larger number of 1335s that are either "real" DEC RD53s or from PCs that may eventually end up in a DEC box as an RD53 (the W7 jumper mod). I don't think I've ever seen a 1325 in the wild. I don't know why it is 2MB smaller than the 1335. -ethan P.S. - more raw data and jumper settings for the aforementioned drives http://www.4drives.com/DRIVESPECS/MICROPOLIS/2334.txt http://www.4drives.com/DRIVESPECS/MICROPOLIS/2339.txt http://www.4drives.com/DRIVESPECS/MICROPOLIS/2348.txt From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 11 15:28:41 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:28:41 -0500 Subject: Micropolis1355 to 1325 (RD53) conversion In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D55AA09.6000609@neurotica.com> On 2/11/11 4:11 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a few Micropolis 1355 drives I am looking into converting into 1325 > drives. Has anyone know how, tried to, or ever done this? > Is the HDA the same? Can the logic board be modified, or does it have to be > replaced? Any info would be greatly appreciated. I believe the drives are completely different. If memory serves, the 1355 is a 150MB ESDI drive. That'd be a different HDA and a very different board. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Fri Feb 11 17:04:10 2011 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 23:04:10 -0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000601cbca3f$ff462a90$fdd27fb0$@co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> That makes no sense. >> sniping does not drive up prices like early bidding does. >> > Of coursei it does. If I (early bid) $50 for an item with an opening bid > of $5, say, and somebody snipes me at the last minute with a $20 bid, > then the price I have to pay has been driven up. I think that's a bit contrived Tony - after all _any_ later bid would drive up the price you have to pay, this isn't a function of sniping. Bob From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Feb 11 17:11:38 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:11:38 -0500 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <000601cbca3f$ff462a90$fdd27fb0$@co.uk> References: , <000601cbca3f$ff462a90$fdd27fb0$@co.uk> Message-ID: that's not true. sniping is very limited to the last few minutes of the auction, if not the last few seconds. and a limited number of bids can happen at that point. therefore it does not equal to the same thing. it is very hard to "drive the price up" in the last few seconds the way early bidding does. early bidding serves only one purpose - drive the price up. in fact, normally early bids before the last day have driven the price up beyond full retail. there's no longer any point in bidding on the item. I've seen this happen a lot. people still buy items because 1) they're stupid and 2) they think since it's fleabay they must be getting a deal and with the tie-in to paypal and excessive fees, and lack of sellers being able to leave negative feedback for buyers, it's really gone down hill. > From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! > Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 23:04:10 +0000 > > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> That makes no sense. > >> sniping does not drive up prices like early bidding does. > >> > > Of coursei it does. If I (early bid) $50 for an item with an opening bid > > of $5, say, and somebody snipes me at the last minute with a $20 bid, > > then the price I have to pay has been driven up. > > I think that's a bit contrived Tony - after all _any_ later bid would drive > up the price you have to pay, this isn't a function of sniping. > > Bob > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 11 17:45:31 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:45:31 -0500 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! References: , <000601cbca3f$ff462a90$fdd27fb0$@co.uk> Message-ID: <8C55F1E0DF114734AC781F063E9D114D@dell8300> Ebay is trying to turn into a store and ditch the flea market format, which is why BIN is so cheap to list. Some people have no idea what retail is, so they have no clue if they are overpaying. How much does it cost for an individual to get credit card payments any other way then Payapal? Do you want to take my bad check for a $1000 laptop around Christmas, how about a fake Post Office money order? I am sure it is nice being able to do a retaliatory negative feedback on ebay for something the seller screwed up in the first place. Ebay is tilted toward the buyer just like any other store, the seller still get millions of eyeballs to offer their products but get squeezed out by the large corporate commodity sellers just like in real life. The fact is without ebay the vintage computer equipment market would crash overnight. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dan Gahlinger" To: Sent: Friday, February 11, 2011 6:11 PM Subject: RE: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! in fact, normally early bids before the last day have driven the price up beyond full retail. there's no longer any point in bidding on the item. I've seen this happen a lot. people still buy items because 1) they're stupid and 2) they think since it's fleabay they must be getting a deal and with the tie-in to paypal and excessive fees, and lack of sellers being able to leave negative feedback for buyers, it's really gone down hill. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 11 17:47:52 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:47:52 -0700 Subject: Modern Business Machines for Writing, Duplicating, Recording, etc. (1947) Message-ID: FYI, came across this film at archive.org today. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Feb 12 03:01:02 2011 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 01:01:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <8C55F1E0DF114734AC781F063E9D114D@dell8300> References: , <000601cbca3f$ff462a90$fdd27fb0$@co.uk> <8C55F1E0DF114734AC781F063E9D114D@dell8300> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Feb 2011, Teo Zenios wrote: > Ebay is trying to turn into a store and ditch the flea market format, > which is why BIN is so cheap to list. > > Some people have no idea what retail is, so they have no clue if they > are overpaying. > > How much does it cost for an individual to get credit card payments any > other way then Payapal? I accept credit cards through moneybookers.com. The customer doesn't need to sign up for anything and you never see their credit card number. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Feb 12 03:29:28 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 22:29:28 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! References: Message-ID: <4CF94758F677478C83BDC9C3B5DC37C5@massey.ac.nz> I'll order a replacement IC and let you know what happens in a week or two. Much obliged Tony! >> Well, what do you think Tony? I've found a place in HongKong I can get = >> these TA 7259P ICs for $20 (incl shipping). The IC or the hall sensors? >> = >> Are there any other tests I can do? > >>From what you've said so far, I would suspect the chip. I might well be > wrong, but I think if I'd got to this point I would change the TA7259 and > the 3 capacitors I mentioned ans see what happens. From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Feb 12 08:58:21 2011 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:58:21 -0500 Subject: Looking for Intel HEX read/write code Message-ID: All -- I?m working on making a version of TinyBASIC available on the N8VEM 80188 board (like IBM ROM BASIC) and I?m looking for generic code to read and write Intel Hex records. The plan is to use this for the file format for storing BASIC programs on cassette. I?ve done some Googling and most of what I find is complete conversion programs rather than the code fragments that I need. If anyone has any useful links on this topic I?d appreciate it. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 12:08:13 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:08:13 -0500 Subject: Unique historical S-100 68000 CPU board items for sale Message-ID: <551E79A8DA324F31920409F165CEC30C@andrewdesktop> Hi! Professor Wilcox is selling his historical S-100 68000 CPU board and associated material. Please contact him if interested. This is a unique set of boards and material. If I had the funds I would purchase these myself but cannot so hopefully someone in the classic/vintage/homebrew computer community would like these unique historical artifacts. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch -----Original Message----- From: Alan D. Wilcox [mailto:alan at wilcoxengineering.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 7:28 PM To: Andrew Lynch Subject: Re: Andrew - trying to reach you - ADVTG Hi Andrew, You're a lot more familiar than I am as to what might appeal. Perhaps if you could please place a couple postings that might read something like the following, I might find a happy home for it all. "Unique 68000 S-100 CPU board and assorted other boards and engineering notes for sale. The board is the design feature of my 68000 book published in 1987. Photos and details at http://wilcoxengineering.com/68000-microprocessor - I can provide more specifics for serious inquiries only. Will not split; this special historical collection stays together. Contact me through the site. Alan Wilcox, W3DVX." Send me links of where I can see whatever you put up. Hopefully we'll have some serious folks calling. Many thanks! Alan :) Alan D. Wilcox, W3DVX 570-321-1516 http://WilcoxEngineering.com http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/6768 ... Elecraft Client Comments http://www.eham.net/reviews/detail/8841 . Small Wonder Labs Comments http://eBookEditor.net https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/28062?ref=awilcox Williamsport, PA 17701 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 12 13:26:17 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:26:17 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret Microcode Update: V001F Message-ID: <4D56DED9.5040405@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just spent an hour or so fixing more bugs in the DiscFerret microcode. Turns out the hard-sector track mark detector I was so pleased with... didn't actually work. What's that old saying about pride coming right before a fall? Anyway -- it's fixed now, along with a few other bugs. Basically, I screwed up the logic which generates the 250us and 500us master clocks, meaning the step rates were about 2x too fast. I'm surprised my drives managed to keep up at the rate the DiscFerret was stepping them (1.5ms a step for the 3.5in drive!) I've done some tests with a 10-sector NorthStar disc, and managed to get a valid read. Next up is adding NorthStar support to the disc analyser, but that's going to have to wait until next weekend... There's also a new feature in Mcode 001F -- index speed measurement. This is essentially a frequency counter tied to the INDEX pin. With this, you can measure the rotational speed of the disc -- which could be useful for testing disc drives, and adjusting the rotational speed of the spindle motor (on drives which have such adjustments). The new registers have been added to the current 'TIP' version of the C API, and the Python API (which still lives in the firmware repository, under the 'test' directory). As always, if you have any questions, ask away -- either on Classiccmp (cctalk or cctech), discferret-l, or the Vintage Computer Forums (though you may well have to PM me to get my attention!) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 12 14:15:40 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:15:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! In-Reply-To: <4CF94758F677478C83BDC9C3B5DC37C5@massey.ac.nz> from "terry stewart" at Feb 12, 11 10:29:28 pm Message-ID: > > I'll order a replacement IC and let you know what happens in a week or two. If it's not too late, I'd order a couple of them. After all, you do have a second Lisa drive that needs repair (IIRC), and also it's possible something in the motor -- like those capacitors I mentioned -- could be damaging the chip. You check for such things of course, but it's always possible you could miss one... I am still curious about that 'extra' white wire... -tony From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 12 15:51:55 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 21:51:55 +0000 Subject: DiscFerret Microcode Update: V0020 In-Reply-To: <4D56DED9.5040405@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D56DED9.5040405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D5700FB.7050806@philpem.me.uk> On 12/02/11 19:26, Philip Pemberton wrote: > There's also a new feature in Mcode 001F -- index speed measurement. > This is essentially a frequency counter tied to the INDEX pin. With > this, you can measure the rotational speed of the disc -- which could be > useful for testing disc drives, and adjusting the rotational speed of > the spindle motor (on drives which have such adjustments). Well, it seems 250us isn't enough resolution to get a good speed reading. I've changed the clock divider, and the index frequency measurement now runs at a timing resolution of 10us. The code to do this is in Microcode 0020 and the Python API, but isn't in the C API yet. There are even two neat little functions to get the speed in RPM, and the index-to-index time in seconds. Enjoy! (again!) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sat Feb 12 18:27:51 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:27:51 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! References: Message-ID: <6E672624D92F478AB49BC57AA9BC9D54@massey.ac.nz> No, I did order two of the ICs. As you say, I have two drives with this fault. I'll have a look at the drive again tonight to see if I can see where that wire goes and also identify those caps you mention. Terry ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 9:15 AM Subject: Re: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! >> >> I'll order a replacement IC and let you know what happens in a week or >> two. > > If it's not too late, I'd order a couple of them. After all, you do have > a second Lisa drive that needs repair (IIRC), and also it's possible > something in the motor -- like those capacitors I mentioned -- could be > damaging the chip. You check for such things of course, but it's always > possible you could miss one... > > I am still curious about that 'extra' white wire... > > -tony > From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Feb 12 18:34:47 2011 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:34:47 -0600 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4C64B0B9.7010405@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> <4C64B0B9.7010405@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4D572727.4060907@brutman.com> It's alive! For those of you who don't recall a thread from six months ago, I was trying to get an old Bernoulli Box running again. This was a Model A220 - two 20MB 8" drives in an enclosure. I finally found somebody with cartridges that I could purchase and was able to get it going. Some things I learned along the way .. - The head cleaning kit is essential. The drive was ridiculously flakey until after five or six sessions with the cleaning cartridge, which basically lets you wipe a giant wet pad on the head by manipulating a lever through the cleaning cartridge. (Strictly a manual operation - they don't want you to get that cartridge loaded and start spinning it at 1500 RPM.) - The 20MB drives will read 10MB cartridges, but not write to them. - A stock XT can run with the cartridges having an interleave of 4. That gives you about a 120KB/sec data transfer rate. - The Iomega controller supports DMA and PIO modes. The PIO mode is pitifully slow. I won't mention the number here it is so bad. - The Iomega controller has an optional ROM that can boot the machine from the drive, but in read only mode only. To be able to write or do anything else you need to have a device driver loaded. The drive is truly marvelous to hear in action, and it's the most interesting drive I have in the house now. I'm finally happy that I got it working, although it's cost too much @#$#@ money. (The cartridges weren't cheap, nor were the controller cards, cleaning kit, etc.) If anybody has 20MB 8" cartridges or knows of a source, I'm still looking. There are some on ePay now for price that makes me visibly wince and consider playing with click-of-death Zip drives instead. (I'm looking for something a little more reasonable.) Mike From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 12 19:42:52 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:42:52 +0000 Subject: ANN: DiscFerret Firmware 001C released Message-ID: <4D57371C.1050509@philpem.me.uk> This is aimed at all the folks who bought a DiscFerret with 001B firmware... and has been cross-posted to classiccmp because I know there are a few DiscFerret owners who don't follow the official mailing list. There's a fairly nasty bug in the USB stack on firmware version 001B. This bug causes the DiscFerret to stop responding under some conditions: - When the power cable is plugged in before the USB cable. - When the USB cable is unplugged, then reconnected while the DiscFerret is powered up. ("hot plugging") Basically, there's a logic error in the Microchip USB stack which causes it to enter an infinite loop whenever the PIC boots without the USB cable connected, or when the USB cable is disconnected mid-way through a USB packet. In the latter case, the USB PHY/SIE module in the PIC gets out of sync with the host, and fails to re-synchronise when the host is reconnected. The solution is to upgrade to Firmware 001C. This is available from . In simple terms: - Short the BOOT jumper on the DiscFerret - Connect the power supply and USB cable (in any order) - Remove the jumper - Run mphidflash to reprogram the PIC (the exact command line to use is on the Downloads page). The whole procedure can be done in a few minutes. If you've ever reflashed a PC BIOS, you'll have no trouble upgrading the firmware on a DiscFerret. Any problems -- feel free to email me, or post on Discferret-L. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Feb 12 19:58:00 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:58:00 -0600 Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> On 2/10/2011 7:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Somebody just left an IBM FLOWCHARTING TEMPLATE X20-8020 on the floor in > the hallway. > > Remember when flowcharts were a REQUIRED part of documentation? > So, sure enough, we wrote a program that would take a deck of FORTRAN > cards and produce a flowchart. It was not a particcularly USABLE > flowchart, but it met the "requirement". > > Perhaps we should couple a flowchart editor/creator with a code generator > as our next paradigm :-? > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Something along those lines has actually occurred to me too. I keep thinking there should be *something* that could be done to revolutionize the way software is created. I'm pretty convinced the way it's currently done is not the answer. Though I still really enjoy writing C code, and though I'm careful to try to create easily understandable and maintainable code, I always seem to finish projects with the uneasy feeling that it could have been done better, maybe a lot better. BTW, I reject the idea that OO is the answer. I think when I was younger I didn't feel that way; I was just happy that the blooming thing worked! Maybe there's a penalty for spending too many years doing too many projects - you start to get all philosophical about the process... Later, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 12 20:35:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:35:25 -0800 Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> References: , <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net>, <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D56D2ED.31039.1FEEA6F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Feb 2011 at 19:58, Charlie Carothers wrote: > Something along those lines has actually occurred to me too. I keep > thinking there should be *something* that could be done to > revolutionize the way software is created. I'm pretty convinced the > way it's currently done is not the answer. Though I still really > enjoy writing C code, and though I'm careful to try to create easily > understandable and maintainable code, I always seem to finish projects > with the uneasy feeling that it could have been done better, maybe a > lot better. BTW, I reject the idea that OO is the answer. I think > when I was younger I didn't feel that way; I was just happy that the > blooming thing worked! Maybe there's a penalty for spending too many > years doing too many projects - you start to get all philosophical > about the process... Later, Charlie C. Ah, the silver bullet problem. People claiming to have The Answer have been around almost as long as electronic computing. Anyone remember the "Pride Method"? I think (google doesn't turn it up) a fellow by the name of Robert(?) Pride, who back in the 60's or early 70's ran workshops on creating (mostly business) programs that worked. His Method was fairly straightforward--start from results (reports, screens, whatever) and inputs (data, user prompts) and work backwards, coding backwards from these endpoints. Basic top-down design stuff. It was revolutionary back then, but probably wouldn't make a ripple now. OO may be *an* answer, but it's discipline and clear thinking that will get you where you're going. Where things start to get ugly is when "enhancements" are added to existing code. Pride insisted that it was necessary to start the design process all over again when enhancements that changed the fundamental nature of the prograom. That's exactly what budget-conscious development managers didn't want to hear, but it did make sense. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Feb 12 22:42:10 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:42:10 -0800 Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: On 2011 Feb 12, at 5:58 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > On 2/10/2011 7:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Somebody just left an IBM FLOWCHARTING TEMPLATE X20-8020 on the floor >> in >> the hallway. >> >> Remember when flowcharts were a REQUIRED part of documentation? >> So, sure enough, we wrote a program that would take a deck of FORTRAN >> cards and produce a flowchart. It was not a particcularly USABLE >> flowchart, but it met the "requirement". >> >> Perhaps we should couple a flowchart editor/creator with a code >> generator >> as our next paradigm :-? >> > Something along those lines has actually occurred to me too. I keep > thinking there should be *something* that could be done to > revolutionize the way software is created. I'm pretty convinced the > way it's currently done is not the answer. Though I still really > enjoy writing C code, and though I'm careful to try to create easily > understandable and maintainable code, I always seem to finish projects > with the uneasy feeling that it could have been done better, maybe a > lot better. BTW, I reject the idea that OO is the answer. I think > when I was younger I didn't feel that way; I was just happy that the > blooming thing worked! Maybe there's a penalty for spending too many > years doing too many projects - you start to get all philosophical > about the process... Decades ago I wanted to think about designing a graphical GP programming language, we (or many of us) conceptualise things in terms of flowchart-like diagrams and state diagrams and such and they tend to be considered useful descriptions, so why not program in them, and skip the intermediate procedural text-based-stream language. I suspect there have been many attempts or half-efforts over the years, I also suspect they end up being incomplete as GP languages or end up looking like hacks. Some time ago while talking with a friend about this he suggested that UML (Unified Modelling Language) is a serious effort in this direction. A cursory inspection looks interesting, but I'm not close enough to it to comment on it more than that. It's interesting that hardware logic description in the form of FPGA/CPLD configuration has taken what might be considered a backward step, from the graphical schematic diagram to procedural-like text-based-stream languages, not to say there aren't reasons for that direction, but nonetheless the text-based language gets more ingrained as the description paradigm. Way back when, there was the stumbling block of lack of graphical user interfaces, not as much of an issue these days, although an agreed-upon underlying graphical description language may be still contentious. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 12 23:09:10 2011 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 23:09:10 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: from "Richard" at Feb 8, 11 03:15:21 pm, Message-ID: Ohh god stop this discussion. Tony, I find you kinda offensive, and always brain dumb, with your replies to me. If the objective is a true printout, the digital data is available up the chain in the system. If you want a cool screen print effect, use a digital camera and shoot, permanent, make a scope camera frame out of plywood. For those of you that are serious about Tektronix equipment and resources, we are all here in Beaverton for your serious restoration efforts. Randy > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > Subject: Re: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 19:58:28 +0000 > > > > > > > In article , > > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > > > On 2011 Feb 8, at 7:16 AM, Richard wrote: > > > > Philip Belben writes: > > > >> For that matter, how big are the pixels? > > > > > > > > There aren't any pixels. > > > > > > I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the analog > > > process in the system under discussion, but I would like to add an > > > historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were characterised > > > in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very early days of TV. > > > > Sure, but its not a TV system. There is some limit to the resolution > > of a 463{1,2} printer. There is also some limit to the resolution of > > Actualy, I would say the 4631 printer is very close to being a TV system. > > As I understnad it (and it's been some years since I looked at the > schematics), the printer casues an electron beam (from the flood gun?) to > be scanned over the storage target in a raster. This produces a signal > indicating the charge level on the target for that point. And the printer > has a 1-dimentinal CRT whic his sanned in synchronism to the raster > lines, its image is recorded o nthe apepr. The vertical 'deflection' in > the printer is obtained by advancing the paper. > > No matter how the image in the storage tube is put there, the printer is > a raster devvice. There is a limited vertical resolution from the number > of lines in taht readout raster. I assume the horizontal resolution is > limited only by the bandwidth of the system. > > -tony > From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 13 00:35:45 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 01:35:45 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102130135.45381.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, February 13, 2011, Randy Dawson wrote: > Ohh god stop this discussion. > Welcome to cctalk...? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Feb 13 02:37:18 2011 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:37:18 +1100 Subject: TRS80 Model 1 Tutorials Message-ID: <004b01cbcb59$3a4cca30$aee65e90$@on.net> Posted by Ian Mavric a couple of days ago...they're quite good! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XPcqwBZ2-4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOlVgfbpETQ ++++++++++ Kevin Parker Advanced Imaging e: webmaster at advancedimaging.com.au w: www.advancedimaging.com.au m: 0418 815 527 ++++++++++ http://au.linkedin.com/in/krparker From terry at webweavers.co.nz Sun Feb 13 04:13:20 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:13:20 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! References: Message-ID: > I am talking about the motor PCB end. 7 of the wires are soldered to the > PCB in a row of 3 and a row of 4 IIRC. I couldn't see any sign of that > white wire on your photos of the top of the motor PCB, so I am wondering > what happens to it. Is it soldered to some point on the underside (solder > side) of the motor PCB, if so, where. In this drive it seems to be a row of 3 and a row of 5 rather than 4. The white wire is can be seen in that set of 3 of the left part of the board in this photo. http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/2011-02-14-400k-sony-motor-circuit.jpg >There are 3 capacitors connected in a start (`Wye') to the motor winding >connections. Ifthey're defective, the back emf from the windings can >damage the chip. Tony ..."connected in a start (`Wye') to the motor winding connections." I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is a "wye"? Pardon my ignorance in these matters. I realise we had no circuit diagram for this particular drive, but would those capacitors be obvious from their positions on the board? Can you see them in the photo under the link? BTW, you'll notice the motor board is a little dusty. It's cosmetically the worse of the two drives. I figured if I was going to cock something up during this disassembly diagnostic process I'd rather do it to the drive with the most obvious ravages of time. The second drive (same fault) is much cleaner. Terry Terry From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 10:23:54 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:23:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D56D2ED.31039.1FEEA6F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 12, 11 06:35:25 pm Message-ID: As you all know, I'm heavily biased towards the hardware side, but much of it is the same there... > OO may be *an* answer, but it's discipline and clear thinking that > will get you where you're going. Where things start to get ugly is Agreed... 'Banning' certain things becuase they make code (or hardware) difficult to undersnd or maintian is silly IMHO. I've sene pefecrly understnadable progeams with GOTOs (or their equivalent). I've seen right messes trying to avoind them (condtionals around just about everything). I've sene right messes of hardware built with monostables all triggering each other so if one drifts a bit the whole lot falls over. And I've seen them used properly. I've seen a right mess which claimed to be a state machine too... > when "enhancements" are added to existing code. Pride insisted that Again I think it's a matter of (good) judgement. You can add small extra feautres ot hardware or software without problems. But as you said, if you want a major change, it's time tore-think the deisng from the start. > it was necessary to start the design process all over again when > enhancements that changed the fundamental nature of the prograom. > That's exactly what budget-conscious development managers didn't want > to hear, but it did make sense. I would add soemthing else that managers don't like, and that is that using 'standard solutions' is not always best. Of course subroutine libraries are a Good Thing. But over-use of them, when you mess about wit hthe problem so that you can use one library routine after another, this routine for this case, and that routine fo thtat case, often makes a less reliable solution than writing the special routine to solve that problem. Similarly in hardware, I don't like starting from a stnadard module (microcontorler PCB, etc) and somehow making it fit the problem. I find it better to actually think of the solution. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 10:40:31 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:40:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: from "Randy Dawson" at Feb 12, 11 11:09:10 pm Message-ID: > > > Ohh god stop this discussion. Who died and put you in charge of the list? No I will not stop any discussion because you (or anyone else other than the list owner) tells me to. IMHO this discussion is very much on-topic here. It is disucssing a peripheral for a classic computer system, or possibly a comptuer system itself. Nobody is forcing you to read or contribute to this discussion. If you don't like it, read something else. Actually, if you'd read the messages you would realise that one of your comments is downright wrong. > > Tony=2C I find you kinda offensive=2C and always brain dumb=2C with your re= > plies to me. I can't find anything that I would consider remotely offensive in that bit you quoted. Perhaps you can explain how my description (which I believe to be corrent, if it isn;'t then you are welcome to give factual correctlions) offends you. > > If the objective is a true printout=2C the digital data is available up the= > chain in the system. And that's the stantement which I consider to be totally wrong. In the case of a 4014 (or whatever) terminal, sure you vcan grab the incoming serial data stream. I suppose for a 405x computer you could grab the data going into the DACs, but I don;t think many 405x owners would want to make permanent modifications to their machines to do this (not if there's another solution available). But as I have mentioend, I have a Tektronix large-screen (12" or so) storage display. It has analogue X-Y inputs. It has a screen printer connector such as we are discussing. The input unit I have for this display is an 8 channel multiplexer and timebease. The thing behaves as an 8-channel storage 'scope (probbly around audip bandwidth). There is no digital stream in any part of that unit. Yes, I could replace the whole thing with an 8-input ADC, etc. But that's not the same system at all. > > If you want a cool screen print effect=2C use a digital camera and shoot=2C= > permanent=2C make a scope camera frame out of plywood. tht is one way, if you have a digital camera. But I have never believed that probkems only have one solution,. What you do one way, another person may do a differnt way. This is a hobby for most of us. We do it becuase we enjoy it. As such, its up to the individual how to spend his time and money. If somebody wants to inteface to the printer connector on a storage display, then who are you (or I) to stop them. If somevody wants to photograph the screen, ditto. Some people might claim that spending hours keeping old hardware running when there a re perfectly good emulators out there is a waste of time and money., Maybe it is. But that is not a reason for not doing it. I can think of a dozen hoobies that I don't wish to spend my time and money doing. But that certain;y doesn't mean others shouldn't do them if they so wish. > > For those of you that are serious about Tektronix equipment and resources= > =2C we are all here in Beaverton for your serious restoration efforts. Fien. Do you have a specification of the hard copy unit connector that we are discussing? Do you have details of the special paper for the 4631 printer (Is it possible to re-create it)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 13 10:58:05 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 16:58:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! In-Reply-To: from "terry stewart" at Feb 13, 11 11:13:20 pm Message-ID: > > > I am talking about the motor PCB end. 7 of the wires are soldered to the > > PCB in a row of 3 and a row of 4 IIRC. I couldn't see any sign of that > > white wire on your photos of the top of the motor PCB, so I am wondering > > what happens to it. Is it soldered to some point on the underside (solder > > side) of the motor PCB, if so, where. > > In this drive it seems to be a row of 3 and a row of 5 rather than 4. The Ah yse, I see that from your latest photo. Drat! I was hoping it was the same PCB as the strandard motor with minor changes and a speed cotnrol wire tacked on somewhere... Oh well... > white wire is can be seen in that set of 3 of the left part of the board in > this photo. > > http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/temp/2011-02-14-400k-sony-motor-circuit.jpg > > >There are 3 capacitors connected in a start (`Wye') to the motor winding > >connections. Ifthey're defective, the back emf from the windings can > >damage the chip. > > Tony ..."connected in a start (`Wye') to the motor winding connections." > I'm not sure what you mean by this. What is a "wye"? Pardon my ignorance > in these matters. Firstly, I meant 'Star (Wye)' not 'start'. Perhaps I have confused you with that typo. The terms come from 3-phase electrical engineering (which is quite cloe towhat this motor uses intenrally). If you have 3 wires (in this case the 3 motor outputs of the chip) and 3 deices to connect between them, the 2 ways it's normally doneare to connec the 3 devies in a triangle (so one goes between wires 1 and 2m one between 2 and 3, one between 3 and 1) -- this is called 'Delta' connection (the capitcla Greek letter Delta is a triangle) or to conenct the devices one from each wire to a common point (that goes nowhere else in this case). That's called 'Star' connection in the UK, and, I beleive 'Wye' connection (becuase it looks like a 'Y') in the States. I don't know what it's normally claled in New Zealand.# > I realise we had no circuit diagram for this particular drive, but would > those capacitors be obvious from their positions on the board? Can you see > them in the photo under the link? Take a look at one of those HP drive schermatics I mentioned. If you are working from one of 'my' schematics, oyu want ot look at the sheet entitled 'Sony Floppy Drive Spindle Motor Sheet (3)'. You'll see the TA7259 chip. Connected to the inputs are the 3 hall devices H1-H3. Connected ot the outpus are the 3 motor windings -- notice how the other end of these windings are all linked together, but go nowhere else -- that's the 'star' (or 'wye') configuration I was talking about. And just to the left of the widnigns are 3 capacitors C11, C12, C13 wired in another star circuit. I have no idea what the capacitors will be labelled on your PCB. They are likely to be a simular value. See if you can find 3 cpaacitors, arounf 10uF each, with the +ve side wired to a motor output connection on the chip and the 3 -ve sides all linked together. It might be the 3 capacitors cludered just to the right of the chip in the photo, it might not. You cna use the resistance range of your multimeter to check what is connected to what, of course. Alas without the PCB in front of me (and thus being able to trace connections) I don;t think I cna be more definite. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 12:26:11 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:26:11 +0000 Subject: Anyone want to buy my old Powerbook 190? Message-ID: Or is it not vintage enough? :?) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270706084705 -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From spedraja at ono.com Sun Feb 13 12:34:56 2011 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:34:56 +0100 Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: Hello. Remember when flowcharts were a REQUIRED part of documentation? >> So, sure enough, we wrote a program that would take a deck of FORTRAN >> cards and produce a flowchart. It was not a particcularly USABLE >> flowchart, but it met the "requirement". >> > A) In my company, Flowcharts are yet required. But the Architecture Unit make them. B) If I remember it correctly, IBM had something so. I've read it in one of my books. C) And, of course, it's the infamous IBM truth tables program generator referred in other of my books Sergio From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Feb 13 13:21:05 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:21:05 -0800 Subject: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net>,<4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: I've seen that. I'm not sure the folks who own it would be happy if I invoked their corporate name (it was an internal tool), but that's exactly what they built: a system that took flow charts and converted them to code. The code was nearly impossible to maintain outside the tool environment, and awkward to maintain within it. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Charlie Carothers [csquared3 at tx.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, February 12, 2011 5:58 PM To: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms On 2/10/2011 7:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Somebody just left an IBM FLOWCHARTING TEMPLATE X20-8020 on the floor in > the hallway. > > Remember when flowcharts were a REQUIRED part of documentation? > So, sure enough, we wrote a program that would take a deck of FORTRAN > cards and produce a flowchart. It was not a particcularly USABLE > flowchart, but it met the "requirement". > > Perhaps we should couple a flowchart editor/creator with a code generator > as our next paradigm :-? > > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > > Something along those lines has actually occurred to me too. I keep thinking there should be *something* that could be done to revolutionize the way software is created. I'm pretty convinced the way it's currently done is not the answer. Though I still really enjoy writing C code, and though I'm careful to try to create easily understandable and maintainable code, I always seem to finish projects with the uneasy feeling that it could have been done better, maybe a lot better. BTW, I reject the idea that OO is the answer. I think when I was younger I didn't feel that way; I was just happy that the blooming thing worked! Maybe there's a penalty for spending too many years doing too many projects - you start to get all philosophical about the process... Later, Charlie C. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 13 13:24:39 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:24:39 -0500 Subject: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: <4D54766E.3060307@blueskystudios.com> <20110210155206.J44248@shell.lmi.net> <4D547E11.6000801@blueskystudios.com> <4D5489AE.9070200@jetnet.ab.ca> <20110210170539.C44248@shell.lmi.net> <20110210173242.G44248@shell.lmi.net>, <4D573AA8.2030505@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: <4D582FF7.1090103@neurotica.com> On 2/13/11 2:21 PM, Ian King wrote: > I've seen that. I'm not sure the folks who own it would be happy if > I invoked their corporate name (it was an internal tool), but that's > exactly what they built: a system that took flow charts and converted > them to code. The code was nearly impossible to maintain outside the > tool environment, and awkward to maintain within it. -- Ian So, kinda like most code generators, then. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 13 13:49:22 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:49:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D582FF7.1090103@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 13, 11 02:24:39 pm" Message-ID: <201102131949.p1DJnMO3019192@floodgap.com> > > I've seen that. I'm not sure the folks who own it would be happy if > > I invoked their corporate name (it was an internal tool), but that's > > exactly what they built: a system that took flow charts and converted > > them to code. The code was nearly impossible to maintain outside the > > tool environment, and awkward to maintain within it. > > So, kinda like most code generators, then. Having written several code generators for various projects, I resemble that remark. :-P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dihydrogen monoxide -- it may be in your drink right now! www.dhmo.org ----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 13 14:02:31 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:02:31 -0500 Subject: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <201102131949.p1DJnMO3019192@floodgap.com> References: <201102131949.p1DJnMO3019192@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D5838D7.8060901@neurotica.com> On 2/13/11 2:49 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> I've seen that. I'm not sure the folks who own it would be happy if >>> I invoked their corporate name (it was an internal tool), but that's >>> exactly what they built: a system that took flow charts and converted >>> them to code. The code was nearly impossible to maintain outside the >>> tool environment, and awkward to maintain within it. >> >> So, kinda like most code generators, then. > > Having written several code generators for various projects, I resemble > that remark. :-P That's ok Cameron, we like you anyway. ;) -Dave (running for cover) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 13 14:11:16 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:11:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <4D5838D7.8060901@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Feb 13, 11 03:02:31 pm" Message-ID: <201102132011.p1DKBGnn019936@floodgap.com> > > Having written several code generators for various projects, I resemble > > that remark. :-P > > That's ok Cameron, we like you anyway. ;) No, I'm gloomily agreeing. Pretty much they generate crap. Q. What's the difference between a compiler and a code generator? A. Better advertising. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Logan! You renewed!" ------------------------------------------------------ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 13 16:41:04 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:41:04 -0800 Subject: OT: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: <4D56D2ED.31039.1FEEA6F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 12, 11 06:35:25 pm, Message-ID: <4D57ED80.18625.1249500@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2011 at 16:23, Tony Duell wrote: > I would add soemthing else that managers don't like, and that is that > using 'standard solutions' is not always best. Of course subroutine > libraries are a Good Thing. But over-use of them, when you mess about > wit hthe problem so that you can use one library routine after > another, this routine for this case, and that routine fo thtat case, > often makes a less reliable solution than writing the special routine > to solve that problem. Brings up an interesting side question. Was FORTRAN also the original for standard library routines, or was there something earlier that was available cross-platform? (i.e. If I code "X = MAX1F(A, B, C, E), it does the same on all platforms). --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 13 16:47:04 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:47:04 +0000 Subject: Coding revolution, was: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: <201102131949.p1DJnMO3019192@floodgap.com> References: <201102131949.p1DJnMO3019192@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4D585F68.6080002@philpem.me.uk> On 13/02/11 19:49, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> So, kinda like most code generators, then. > > Having written several code generators for various projects, I resemble > that remark. :-P I'm having to write a code generator for a UML modelling tool with aspect-oriented extensions. If it generates readable code, I'll be amused. If it generates *maintainable* code, I'll be absolutely shocked. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 18:12:32 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:12:32 -0500 Subject: DEC BC13J-08 - what equipment was this used with? Message-ID: Hi, All, I have a few DEC BC13J-08, new-in-bag, and not sure if I'd ever use any. I'm guessing there was some form of DEC Mux or terminal server that used RJ45s, but that gear would be out of the range of what I have worked with (I'm quite familiar with DZ11s, DMF32s, Emulex CS21s, etc) All the DEC-compatible modular serial gear I have is mid-1980s Nevada Western RJ11 stuff. I have more modern Cisco RJ45 serial stuff, naturally, but all I could find on the 'net about the DEC BC13J-08 was offers to sell (for about $15-$30 each!) Obviously I could open a bag and run the eight lines with a continuity checker, but it'd be nice to find some docs to save the time. Thanks for any insight as to what these were used with. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 19:21:03 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:21:03 -0800 Subject: DEC BC13J-08 - what equipment was this used with? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I have a few DEC BC13J-08, new-in-bag, and not sure if I'd ever use > any. ?I'm guessing there was some form of DEC Mux or terminal server > that used RJ45s, but that gear would be out of the range of what I > have worked with (I'm quite familiar with DZ11s, DMF32s, Emulex CS21s, > etc) > So it's something like a BC23P octopus cable but with a 25-pin connector on the head end instead of a 36-pin connector? That's not in the cable list here: http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 13 19:40:10 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:40:10 -0500 Subject: DEC BC13J-08 - what equipment was this used with? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102132040.10420.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday, February 13, 2011, Glen Slick wrote: > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hi, All, > > > > I have a few DEC BC13J-08, new-in-bag, and not sure if I'd ever use > > any. I'm guessing there was some form of DEC Mux or terminal > > server that used RJ45s, but that gear would be out of the range of > > what I have worked with (I'm quite familiar with DZ11s, DMF32s, > > Emulex CS21s, etc) > > So it's something like a BC23P octopus cable but with a 25-pin > connector on the head end instead of a 36-pin connector? And it only has one modular end, and is only intended for use with a single device.. I would expect the center 6 pins to be wired the same as an MMJ, possibly all 8 wired the same as a Xyplex 8-pin modular serial port. Modem cable would seem to indicate that it's DCE-wired. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From g-wright at att.net Sun Feb 13 23:13:39 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:13:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tektronix 4010 wiring color to numbers chart ?? Message-ID: <319527.25684.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I have been working on a 4010 and the wiring color code is listed in numbers. Do they have a standard color to number chart ?? I have the manuals just cant find anything on this. As luck would have it. I removed a 2 wire connector from the power supply then noticed there is more that 1 set of matching in the area. - Thanks, Jerry From terry at webweavers.co.nz Mon Feb 14 01:47:24 2011 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 20:47:24 +1300 Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! References: Message-ID: Found those capacitors. Yes, they were indeed the trio that were clustered together. All the -ve sides clustered together, and the +ve wired to a motor output connection just as you said. I spent tonight extracting the IC and the capactors. It went surprisingly smoothly considering this is probably the smallest circuit board I've worked on in terms of closeness of tracks. Now to just wait until the ICs arrive from Hong Kong. I hope it's not by slow boat. I've ordered and paid for the ICs but have yet to hear any kind of acknowledgement apart from the standard paypal reciept. I've also bought an X/Profile emulator. Luckily I've managed to sell one of my Osborne 1s for $340 NZ (about $255US) to help part-pay for it! So, here's hoping BOTH Lisas will be up and running 100% soon!. An ominous sign in the Lisa 2 though. Yesterday it would just suddenly switch off I was testing this drive. A little jiggling and waiting a while, then a switch on and it would suddenly go again. Could be something loose, or could be the PSU starting to give up the ghost. I have a spare working (I think) PSU, so I might have to call that into service....or attempt a repair if that's indeed the problem. Maintence/repair is an ongoing process with this old iron isn't it. Terry > Take a look at one of those HP drive schermatics I mentioned. If you are > working from one of 'my' schematics, oyu want ot look at the sheet > entitled 'Sony Floppy Drive Spindle Motor Sheet (3)'. You'll see the > TA7259 chip. Connected to the inputs are the 3 hall devices H1-H3. > Connected ot the outpus are the 3 motor windings -- notice how the other > end of these windings are all linked together, but go nowhere else -- > that's the 'star' (or 'wye') configuration I was talking about. And just > to the left of the widnigns are 3 capacitors C11, C12, C13 wired in > another star circuit. > > I have no idea what the capacitors will be labelled on your PCB. They are > likely to be a simular value. See if you can find 3 cpaacitors, arounf > 10uF each, with the +ve side wired to a motor output connection on the > chip and the 3 -ve sides all linked together. It might be the 3 > capacitors cludered just to the right of the chip in the photo, it might > not. You cna use the resistance range of your multimeter to check what is > connected to what, of course. > > Alas without the PCB in front of me (and thus being able to trace > connections) I don;t think I cna be more definite. > > -tony > > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3442 - Release Date: 02/13/11 > From info at mewgull.com Tue Feb 8 04:00:55 2011 From: info at mewgull.com (Mewgull Associates Limited) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 10:00:55 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: <4D509A40.6090505@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D509A40.6090505@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 8 Feb 2011, at 01:20, ben wrote: > On 2/7/2011 1:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> >> >> [Mullard Book] >> >>> If you could find it and give me details of it, I can start looking. That >>> would be much appreciated. >> >> I will keep looking for it, but it's unlikely I'll find it anytime >> soon. What I can remembr is the title ('High Quality Sound >> Reproduction'), the fact that it was published by Mullard (==Philips, of >> course) and it dates from about the time of the introduction of the EL34. I put a PDF if the Mullard book on the 'net a couple of years ago. It's long out of copyright.....do a google for it! Richard From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 8 08:04:48 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:04:48 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I must get round to buildign a secodn Williamson. A friend of mine had >one and wanted to get a stereo pair but he never found a second one. He >gave it to me in exachnage for repairs to his guitar amp. He also gave be >some boxes of 'junk' which incuded a pair of new KT66s, other valves, >valvholders, etc _and the Williamson mains and output transformers. In >other words he'd got the hard to find bits to make his pair... His loss.... > >-tony > I am seriously jealous... No not really, I'm glad for you. How terrific! What are you waiting for? ;-) Jonas From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 8 08:16:29 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:16:29 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > >Hmmm... All I will say is that I maintained my father's Citroen car for >13 years. I therefore have a great love of (some) French engineering. > >IIRC the Pascaline was French.... > >-tony > Ah, but there is French engineering and French domestic wiring (and French bricoleurs...) I agree that Citroens are wonderful, I had the opportunity of test driving a DS19 (or Pallas 21 or something probably) when I was 19 or thereabouts, on a French gravel road full of potholes. Absolutely fantastic suspension... French domestic wiring, on the other hand... :-O I remember getting a shock from a light switch, in my French godmother's house in a village in Charente-Maritime (same place I drove the Citroen). There was a fuseholder in the switch and the cover was broken and I happened to touch the bare metal. And I also had a look at the wiring in her Paris apartment. The previous tenant had "improved" it, using lots of "sparadrap" (sticking-plaster) to connect the extra wires... A wonder the place hadn't burst into flames. French domestic wiring is more like doll's house wiring. Flimsy 2-pin plugs where you connect the wires by jamming the bared ends under the pins, which screw into the plastic body of the plug. And so on. A Swedish inspector would probably have a heart attack merely from looking at it. Jonas From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 8 08:19:18 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:19:18 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0RcUWeAN.1297174758.8329160.jotter@howe.textdrive.com> > >Hmmm... All I will say is that I maintained my father's Citroen car for >13 years. I therefore have a great love of (some) French engineering. > >IIRC the Pascaline was French.... > >-tony And just in case anybody misunderstands, I hold French engineering in great esteem. They are brilliant in many ways, but do tend to be rather careless about personal safety. I really love France. Including their railways. And Cavaill?-Coll organs. Jonas From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 8 08:57:15 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 14:57:15 +0000 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: > Some good PDF doc's from that era. Happy digging. > http://www.pmillett.com/index.html > Ben. Thanks! Jonas From jonas at otter.se Tue Feb 8 15:23:09 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 22:23:09 +0100 Subject: OT: high powered amps (ben) Message-ID: <007601cbc7d6$62afd390$280f7ab0$@otter.se> > > Now for the speakers ... > http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html > If you need details on 1KW speakers, just email them for advice. > Ben. > PS. Remember 500 watts or more will kill small rodents. > Nice! I think I will have to stay well below 1 kW though, tempting though it may be. I live in an apartment and using that kind of gear would probably a) kill the cat b) get me tarred and feathered and run out of town ;-) Jonas From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 17:58:13 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:58:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor Message-ID: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops back out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's familiar w/it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 17:46:59 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:46:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D5114D1.5000008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <693060.37969.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Surely Sarah Palin deserves a little "recognition" too? XD What the Hell does S.P have to do w/auctions??? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 17:44:51 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:44:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone want an IBM/Hitachi 5.25in 2.4MB floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <4D512448.8040206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <569064.34027.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the only practical reason for owning one of these, AFAICed, is to have some extra *resolution* if you will for the purpose of imagine some bizarro disk (maybe I'm even way off). I really shouldn't get involved, but at least I'm open to discussion. I had a mobo shipped from the UK recently and that only cost 20$. If perhaps I had them shipped to me, I could do better on the shipping. E-mail me if you haven't gotten any other offers. --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > From: Philip Pemberton > Subject: Anyone want an IBM/Hitachi 5.25in 2.4MB floppy drive? > To: "cctalk" > Date: Tuesday, February 8, 2011, 6:08 AM > Hi guys, > > I'm toying with the idea of importing a couple of Hitachi > HFD532EIU 5.25in 2.4MB floppy drives from the USA. Thing is, > the postage on these is rather steep -- they won't quite fit > into a USPS Small flat-rate box, and the next size up is the > $47.50 Medium International flat-rate box (or $65 via > Priority Mail in the seller's own box... yeah, right). > > So here's the question. > > Given that each drive costs $15, plus $47.50 shipping for > all three, would anyone be interested in taking one or two > of these drives off my hands for the cost of the drive, plus > a contribution towards the original postage fee (the $48)? > > (I'm also open to offers along the lines of "I have a spare > you can have for less money!" -- I only need one drive, and > maybe a spare) > > Thanks, > -- Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 20:44:12 2011 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 18:44:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <341521.87058.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Jason, I have some HP printer layout forms. Has a grid for printer output of 132 columns, and a corresponding Vertical Format Control tape grid. I'd be happy to send you one if you send me your email address. Cheers, Lee Courtney Menlo Park, CA 94025 ----- Original Message ---- From: Jason T To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; chiclassiccomp at yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, February 8, 2011 9:53:38 PM Subject: Seeking: IBM Coding Forms What started out as a novelty search for an old IBM COBOL coding sheet has turned into a serious-ish quest: I am now looking for any original IBM (and other) coding forms so that I might build a collection on our documents site. As for IBM, Google has helped me uncover the part/form # GX28-1464 for the COBOL form, GX09-0011 for FORTRAN and GX21-9279 for Assembler. More useful would be part # GX21-9818, which is listed as "Coding Forms Masters" and may contain these and other forms. If anyone has these and can a) scan them with high quality or b) lend/send them to me for scanning, I'd much appreciate it. Of course, if my Google-fu has failed and they're already out there, pointers to the downloads will do, too. -- jht From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 10 16:23:12 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 23:23:12 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D546550.7030702@softjar.se> On 02/10/11 21:38, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2011 Feb 9, at 2:17 AM, Christian Corti wrote: >> > On Tue, 8 Feb 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> >>>> For that matter, how big are the pixels? >>>> >>> There aren't any pixels. >>> >> >>> >> I know what you mean here, so not to argue your point about the >>> >> analog process in the system under discussion, but I would like to >>> >> add an historical footnote: even analog raster-scan systems were >>> >> characterised in terms of "picture elements" going back to the very >>> >> early days of TV. >> > >> > That's exactly the point: those Tektronix terminals/computers are not >> > raster-scan systems, you draw a line from here to there. The only >> > "limitation" is the addressing range for the start and end point >> > (either 10 or 12 bits). Speaking of the printer, AFAIK it's the >> > printer that determines the scanning speed and the resolution of the >> > rasterization process. > (And ultimately that 10 or 12 bits does place a maximum on the V*H > resolution of the drawn image.) I hope you understand that a line drawn from one point to another point does not form discrete points. It will be a straight line, not a series of discrete pixels along that straight line. You will not the the "traditional" moiree pattern if you were to draw lines in a spread from a certain point, as you would on a pixel based display. The 12 bit resolution sets a limit to where you can place the beam, but on a line between points, it can be at coordinates that cannot be expressed in 12 bit coordinates. Johnny From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 11:28:16 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:28:16 -0500 Subject: VS8000 Message-ID: > Roger Ivie [rivie at ridgenet.net] wrote: > >> During development of VAXBI, we were told (by the folks >> working on it) that it was A) not going to be VAX-specific >> (DEC was moving MIPSward at the time) and B) would be open. >> >> We were a bit startled when it was announced as "VAXBI". > > It was never open (in the way that UNIBUS was) but it wasn't VAX-only > as the DECsystem 5800 (iirc) used it too. > > Antonio If I remember correctly there was $250,000 license fee for the "BI Corner" if you wanted to design your own BI board. That doessn't sound open to me. -- Michael Thompson From jonas at otter.se Fri Feb 11 11:57:06 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:57:06 +0100 Subject: OT: american vs european 220 (Tony Duell) Message-ID: <003c01cbca15$18f2a430$4ad7ec90$@otter.se> > > But it is online here. > > http://www.r-type.org/static/mull-cir.htm > > Is it? > > Firstly, I could find several links to download bits of the book, but no > link to download the whole thing and I don't think all sections are > available to download separately. I couldn't find the series-heater-chain > AC/DC mains amplidier or the tape amplifier for example. > > Secondly, this is not the book we are talkign about. This is the second > one that the OP already has. For the time, there is an earlier > book, with only 2 main amplifiers (5-10 and 5-20), their preamps and an > FM tuner/. No tape amplifier, no 3-3, etc. And the FM tuner was removed > from the later book which is why the OP wants to find the older one I > believe. Indeed. Sadly the link points to pages containing bits of the book I already have. It's the older one I am interested in, for the FM tuner. Jonas From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au Fri Feb 11 16:43:38 2011 From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:43:38 +1100 Subject: OpenVMS hobbyist license site expired? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3326DFBB-D51C-45C9-8BCE-D9F43C95235D@kerberos.davies.net.au> On 11/02/2011, at 2:37 AM, kenziem at sympatico.ca wrote: > > I just confirmed that this link works just fine http://montagar.com/licenses.php > > In addition to a encompass or other accepted user group membership you need the cpu type and serial number to get the license http://www.vmshobbyist.com works and I understand that the HP OpenVMS web page will be updated to reflect this change. Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From indiviniti at yahoo.com Sat Feb 12 21:02:16 2011 From: indiviniti at yahoo.com (indiviniti) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:02:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: AlphaServer 1000A Message-ID: <637473.29307.qm@web38208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> DEC AlphaServer 1000A?pedestal server, in good shape, working state unknown, but likely does.? Alpha VMS or Tru64 UNIX CD's with apps likely available as well. Let me know asap if anyone is interested.? Ths is being cleared out of an old DEC logistics site early this week. ? Dale ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Feb 13 15:24:24 2011 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:24:24 +0000 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project In-Reply-To: <20110210135035.E42361@shell.lmi.net> References: <4D4C3BB8.6000207@axeside.co.uk> <4D50570A.7080704@axeside.co.uk> <9a89c996a2e0e8522d6351fb22724792@cs.ubc.ca> <201102101459.p1AExZDv096311@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20110210135035.E42361@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4D584C08.3090701@axeside.co.uk> Fred commented: > I've missed parts of this thread, but as I understand it, the argument is > about using "pixels" when referring to a verctor display, with no raster. I've missed parts too, since I only subscribe to cctech, not cctalk; but we are actually talking about the device that scans the storage tube and prints what it finds on paper. This is a raster device, not a vector device. When I asked how big the pixels were, I seem to have opened a can of worms. Perhaps I can contain some of the worms by re-stating my question: How many scan lines does the 436x print per paper inch? How many scan lines does it read per screen shot? Does the latter figure depend on the screen being copied (i.e. does it actually scan the large screens at a higher resolution, to match the higher resolution of the vector addressing)? How many dots can it resolve in one scan line? Does this too depend on the screen it is scanning? I hope this will clear up some of the discussion about pixels. I also hope it will get me a more useful answer than "there aren't any". Philip. From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 14 11:48:15 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:48:15 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4010 wiring color to numbers chart ?? In-Reply-To: <319527.25684.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <319527.25684.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <319527.25684.qm at web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, Jerry Wright writes: > I have been working on a 4010 and the wiring color code is > listed in numbers. Do they have a standard color to number > chart ?? I have the manuals just cant find anything on this. What pages are you looking at in the service manual? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 14 13:48:08 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:48:08 -0500 Subject: Tektronix 4010/4014 terminal printer project Message-ID: > Do you have a specification of the hard copy unit connector that we > are discussing? Between page 5-30 of the 4014 Service manual, 070-2303-00, and The description of the signals related, I bet we could figure It out. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/tektronix/401x/070-2303-00_4014_4015_Service_Mar79.pdf Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 15:17:47 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:17:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Tektronix 4010 wiring color to numbers chart ?? In-Reply-To: <319527.25684.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> from "Jerry Wright" at Feb 13, 11 09:13:39 pm Message-ID: > > I have been working on a 4010 and the wiring color code is > listed in numbers. Do they have a standard color to number > chart ?? I have the manuals just cant find anything on this. Yes, and so do you :-). Actually, the same code is used by HP and Tektronix (and probalby others), and it's the obvious one that htey expected anyone working on the hardware to know. It's the resistor colour code : 0 : Black 1 : Brown 2 : Read 3 : Orange 4 : Yellow 5 : Green 6 : Blue 7 : Violet 8 : Grey 9 : White. So a wire numbered '903' on the schematic is white wih a black stripe and an orange stripe. In theory the black stripe should be wider, but I don;t think they ever required you to check this (in other words yoy won't find 903 amd 930 wires in the same instrumetn, or at least not in the same area of the instrument). Tektronicx often colour-coded their header sockets in the same way. Socket 4 would be a yellow plastic moulding, for example. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 14 15:24:34 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:24:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Faulty Apple Lisa 2/10 Drive -READINGS! In-Reply-To: from "Terry Stewart" at Feb 14, 11 08:47:24 pm Message-ID: > > Found those capacitors. Yes, they were indeed the trio that were clustered > together. All the -ve sides clustered together, and the +ve wired to a > motor output connection just as you said. Good guess on my part :-) Since electrolytic capacitors are cheap, and I doubt you have the equipemtn to test them properly (both for capacitance and ESR), I would replace them. Get replacements of the same vlaue (10uF?) and the same or slightly hight working voltage. It may save you haveing to rpelace the IC> > > I spent tonight extracting the IC and the capactors. It went surprisingly > smoothly considering this is probably the smallest circuit board I've worked > on in terms of closeness of tracks. Excelent. IIRC it's only a signle-sided PCB with no plated through holes, which amkes things a litle asier for you. > > Now to just wait until the ICs arrive from Hong Kong. I hope it's not by > slow boat. I've ordered and paid for the ICs but have yet to hear any kind > of acknowledgement apart from the standard paypal reciept. I home the ICs come and that they solce the problem. If not, I will have to think again :-) > Maintence/repair is an ongoing process with this old iron isn't it. It is, indeed. Pesronally, I enjoy trracking down faults, butI am sure I am very much in the minority. However, I would say that, actually, a lot of my old machines are very reliable and just work when I want them to.And I've not done shotgun techniques like repalcign all the electrolytics in the power supply. -tony From g-wright at att.net Mon Feb 14 16:56:43 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:56:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tektronix 4010 wiring color to numbers chart ?? In-Reply-To: <319527.25684.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <319527.25684.qm@web83806.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <84254.96232.qm@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Well I guess I will answer my own request. Looks like they use resistor color codes on most. There are a few like 2-35 or 5-12 that don't make much sense. - Jerry ________________________________ From: Jerry Wright To: cc_talk Sent: Sun, February 13, 2011 9:13:39 PM Subject: Tektronix 4010 wiring color to numbers chart ?? I have been working on a 4010 and the wiring color code is listed in numbers. Do they have a standard color to number chart ?? I have the manuals just cant find anything on this. As luck would have it. I removed a 2 wire connector from the power supply then noticed there is more that 1 set of matching in the area. - Thanks, Jerry From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 14 18:18:30 2011 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason, Sr.) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:18:30 -0500 Subject: Roman Numerals ( was Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK) In-Reply-To: References: <4BFF79AF.26181.23D21A@cclist.sydex.com> <4C02A88B.29035.230F76C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <201102141918.30855.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 01 June 2010 03:32:09 pm Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Sunday, May 30, 2010 6:04 PM > > > On 31 May 2010 at 1:27, Andrew Burton wrote: > > >> I was thinking that Roman Numerals was the first time (I knew of) > >> numbers being represented by letters, and that would have influenced > >> whoever thought up the sexadecimal system (I can't find any reference > >> to them on wiki - I'm sure it used to be there). Perhaps I was wrong. > > Is Andrew thinking of the sexagesimal (base 60) system? That arose in > Mesopotamia a millennium or more prior to the Romans. > > > You may be thinking of the way the ancient Greeks represented > > numbers. (there were at least two systems--one similar to the Roman > > and the other using letters for 1-9, 10-90, 100-900, with special > > modifiers for 1000-9000. After that the modifier for a myriad > > (10,000, quite literally) was used with each letter.) > > Which the Greeks inherited in turn from the Phoenicians; ancient Hebrew > also used such a system. > > The origin of the numeral system in Greek is in fact earlier than some of > the changes leading from the late Bronze Age dialects to the classical > ones: The letters wau (later called "digamma" for its shape F, when the > sound was long lost in all Greek dialects), qoppa, and sampi were used for > "6", "90", and "900" respectively. The Semitic languages from whom this > system was borrowed had (have) more than one s-like sound, and two k-like > sounds; Greek mixed the names of some of the Phoenician letters to yield > the names sigma and san (the "lunate sigma" used in some inscriptions and > manuscripts). > > Note that the Indo-European linguistic ancestors of the Greeks, Romans, > etc., used a decimal counting system which some daughter groups tweaked. > (The Germanic group, for example, partially adopted a 12-based system on > top of the decimal, naming the next values after "10" as "one-left" and > "two-left".) Coming in way late on an old thread, this book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0670373958 went into *way* more detail about counting systems and who did what than I ever wanted to know. :-) I had it, sold it on Amazon a while back... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 18:56:42 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:56:42 -0500 Subject: JUPITER ACE PCB Message-ID: <3A9A9A0636EE4052BB57A97E5FB4DCC1@andrewdesktop> Hi! One of the N8VEM builders is interested in making a JUPITER ACE board. He is making a PCB and assessing how many builders would be interested in the PCB. I have little information on JUPITER ACE but it appears to be a small Z80 based SBC which uses Forth. It generates its own video signal and has a keyboard interface. If you are interested in such a board please contact me or let us know on the N8VEM mailing list. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 19:21:55 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 20:21:55 -0500 Subject: JUPITER ACE PCB Message-ID: <988AB6FB8372414E9429B38EA389B757@andrewdesktop> Hi! One of the N8VEM builders is interested in making a JUPITER ACE board. He is making a PCB and assessing how many builders would be interested in the PCB. I have little information on JUPITER ACE but it appears to be a small Z80 based SBC which uses Forth. It generates its own video signal and has a keyboard interface. If you are interested in such a board please contact me or let us know on the N8VEM mailing list. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Wed Feb 16 09:57:10 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:57:10 -0600 Subject: Anyone there? Message-ID: <4D5BF3D6.8060203@tx.rr.com> This group seems strangely quiet. I hope nothing bad has happened! BTW, I realize that none of my posts are all that important. However, I do find it curious that I usually see my own posts only if someone else comments on something I said. Does anyone else have this problem and/or does anyone know of a setting I need to change to correct this? Thanks, Charlie C. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 16 20:18:25 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 18:18:25 -0800 Subject: 5 working Teletypes offered in Cleveland OH Message-ID: <4D5C14F1.7319.1DE8102@cclist.sydex.com> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?23988 FWIW, --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 17 00:37:24 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 01:37:24 -0500 Subject: additions to MARCH Computer Museum collection In-Reply-To: <4D4E2A43.7050707@snarc.net> References: <4D4E2A43.7050707@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D5CC224.9070206@snarc.net> On 02/05/2011 11:57 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > 1. DEC PDP-8e > 2. IBM 1130 > > Come see 'em at VCF East 7.0, May 14-15, InfoAge Science Center, Wall, NJ. We executed this rescue today. Filled a 16-foot box truck with the 1130 + peripherals; the 8e (only the CPU -- there wasn't anything with it); three 029 keypunches; around a dozen teletypes; and much more. Our new 1130 also came with manuals and source tape! From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Feb 17 13:11:40 2011 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 14:11:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: In search of HP 12821A Message-ID: I'm looking for a HP 12821A HP-IB board and 59310-60002 cable for my 2109E - does anyone have one for sale or trade? Crisis Computer doesn't have any. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 17 18:16:47 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 16:16:47 -0800 Subject: test Message-ID: <4D5DBA6F.8020905@bitsavers.org> checking if the list is working. From bdwheele at indiana.edu Thu Feb 17 20:44:41 2011 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:44:41 -0000 Subject: [rescue] FS: NeXT Cube Message-ID: <1259439424.4768.21.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net> I'm selling a NeXT Cube I got in a palette of stuff. I've already got a turbo color slab so I really don't need a cube :) I'm located in Bloomington, IN and I'm not going to ship this! NeXT Cube N1000A P/N: 2115 S/N: ABA0003988 * 68040 @ 25MHz * 64M RAM * Floppy * Broken 5.25 FH HD. Spins up then down. I'll supply a 2G HH Drive * Non-ADB Keyboard * Non-ADB Mouse -- damaged. It looks like someone let it sit in glue or a solvent. The ball still rolls, but I can't open it to check to see if the rollers work. * Monochrome monitor. Readable, but like all monitors of that vintage its a bit faded. I'm asking $150 Brian _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 17 20:45:28 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:45:28 -0000 Subject: [rescue] Free for pickup: Sun Ray 100 Message-ID: <201001181814.40198.pat@computer-refuge.org> I have 3 new in box, and 3 new sans-box Sun Ray 100s free for pickup in downtown Lafayette, IN. I've got some keyboards and mice for them as well. I don't want to ship them unless you want to give me much more than they're worth. :) I'd rather give them away then trash them, but if they're not claimed by Jan 25, they'll get thrown out. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 17 20:46:02 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:46:02 -0000 Subject: [rescue] Selling Calcomp 565 plotter Message-ID: <201002021239.53154.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm working on clearing out my warehouse, and I'm selling one of my Calcomp 565 plotters on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220550441602 It came with a load of DG Nova gear that I rescued, but I've never had the opportunity to test it out. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 17 20:47:13 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:47:13 -0000 Subject: [rescue] Stuff to dispense with pt 1. In-Reply-To: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <201004151839.59327.pat@computer-refuge.org> Looks like I forgot to mention, this is all in a commercial building in downtown Lafayette, IN, USA, zip 47901. Pat On Thursday 15 April 2010, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I > would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to > make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is > assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it > hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored in a > climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and > negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship > anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to be > shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email me for > more info on any of this stuff. > > For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I > leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller > (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to > transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some of > the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via scrap > or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. > > + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, > and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 > for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. > Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. + DG > Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party > Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. > + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each > + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a > Challenge XL. $100 > + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 > + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much > luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't > think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each > + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each > + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special > communications cards in them. $100 each > + AlphaServer 4100. $20 > + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them > + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving > this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. > + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the > replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so > that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. > $200. > + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, > and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. > $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front > panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some > repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless > I can get $500 or so for the both of them. > + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? > + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin > nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 > + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each > + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't > heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they > really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. > + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. > $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 > each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. > + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. > + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. > Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has > CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: > http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ > > That's all I can recall for now. > > Pat > -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 17 20:47:13 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:47:13 -0000 Subject: [rescue] Stuff to dispense with pt 1. Message-ID: <201004151725.27765.pat@computer-refuge.org> This is what I'm attempting to get rid of from my warehouse. I would like to get something for the machines, but mostly want to make sure that the stuff doesn't get scrapped. Everything is assumed to work, but I have no guarantees that it does, and it hasn't been turned on in quite a while, but it has been stored in a climate-controlled warehouse. I'm open to some trades, and negotiable on prices for most stuff. I'm not willing to ship anything myself, but may be willing to drop it off somewhere to be shipped - I mostly don't have time to pack this stuff. Email me for more info on any of this stuff. For the most part, this stuff needs to be gone by May 14th- when I leave for Dayton Hamvention. I may be able to bring smaller (desktop box) stuff with me, but larger stuff I won't be able to transport to the show with everything else I'm bringing. Some of the stuff will start disappearing at the end of next week via scrap or eBay if I don't hear anything by then. + VAX 8700 w/ TU-81+ and SA482. Haven't had a chance to power up, and will keep this if I don't get a good offer. Want around $500 for it. + DG Nova 2 w/ PERTEC 9-track tape drive and dual 8" floppy. Asking $750, this will go to eBay if I don't get any takers. + DG Nova 4. Have 3 or 4, some missing the front-panel. 3rd party Disk/QIC tape rackmount box that goes with them. + BA-11 10.5" tall UNIBUS expansion boxes. $25 each + SGI Onyx prototype machine. The same size and chassis as a Challenge XL. $100 + PDP-11/23 w/RL02s in corporate cab. $200 + RM-02 drives. I have 4, want to keep at least one. Never had much luck getting them to work with my RH-11 on my 11/84, but I don't think there's anything wrong with the drives themselves. $200 each + VAX 4000/200. I have two or 3 of these. $100 each + DEC CMR53. 2 of these. A pdp-11/53 system with some special communications cards in them. $100 each + AlphaServer 4100. $20 + Various VAXstation 3100s for whatever I can get for them + 4 tape drives from IBM 3480-B22 tape units. I've considered saving this for spares, but I'm not sure I care enough. + IBM S/390 G5 coupling facility. I'd really like to find the replacement software for the SE to make it into a "standard" CPU, so that I can at least run Linux on it, but I'm not sure that's likely. $200. + Encore Mulitmax UNIX box. 32 x NS32332 processors and 128MB ram, and a 2nd rack with a 9-track tape drive and some 8" hard disks. $250. + General Automation SPC16/40 and 16/45. Missing the front panel for one of the two, have an I/O box, and PSUs. needs some repair work. One of the PSUs needs new capacitors. Will keep unless I can get $500 or so for the both of them. + HP 1000 E-series, I think. Two of these. $200 each? + IBM RS/6000 SP. I've got one frame with quad-375MHz POWER3-II thin nodes, and one high node (16GB ram, 16 x 375MHz). $200 + DEC VT240 terminals. Probably 10. $5 each + IBM 9343-C02 DASD box. I have someone interested, but haven't heard from them in a while, and am not sure how interested they really are ... I'd like to get $100 for it. + Two Amiga 2000 Video Toaster boxes. I may end up keeping one. $100. + Various IBM UNIX desktop systems, desktop VAXes, etc. $5 each. + Altos 8000 and 8600 systems. $10 each. + Tektronix 4010 terminal. $100. + Tullamore/Victoreen SCIPP 1600 1600-channel pulse-height analyzer. Powers up, but not tested much more than that. Looks cool, and has CORE memory inside. $50. Some pics I took a while ago: http://www.flickr.com/photos/vax-o-matic/sets/72157622536984302/ That's all I can recall for now. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 17 20:47:19 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:47:19 -0000 Subject: [rescue] Stuff to dispense with pt 1. Message-ID: <201004190106.46869.pat@computer-refuge.org> It appears that there has been a lot of interest in the Tek 4010 terminal. As I don't want to pick anyone myself, I think that I'll end up putting it up for sale on eBay and let everyone settle who gets it that way. I'll see if I can get it listed early this week. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 17 20:47:49 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 02:47:49 -0000 Subject: [rescue] Tek 4010 for sale Message-ID: <201005042356.56277.pat@computer-refuge.org> I have listed my Tek 4010 on ebay (finally) http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220600550062 Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org _______________________________________________ rescue list - http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue From brianlanning at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 22:16:58 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 22:16:58 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There's a separate power button on the front. Can you just wire the switch on the back out of the circuit? On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Chris M wrote: > Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops back out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's familiar w/it. > > > > From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 17 23:53:13 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 00:53:13 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4D5DBA6F.8020905@bitsavers.org> References: <4D5DBA6F.8020905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D5E0949.8050907@snarc.net> > checking if the list is working. Works fine here. From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 17 23:56:05 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 00:56:05 -0500 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4D5E0949.8050907@snarc.net> References: <4D5DBA6F.8020905@bitsavers.org> <4D5E0949.8050907@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D5E09F5.4020208@snarc.net> >> checking if the list is working. > > Works fine here. I take it back ... messages arriving out of order. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 17 23:57:12 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 22:57:12 -0700 Subject: additions to MARCH Computer Museum collection In-Reply-To: <4D5CC224.9070206@snarc.net> References: <4D4E2A43.7050707@snarc.net> <4D5CC224.9070206@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D5E0A38.1000804@jetnet.ab.ca> On 2/16/2011 11:37 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > We executed this rescue today. Filled a 16-foot box truck with the 1130 > + peripherals; the 8e (only the CPU -- there wasn't anything with it); > three 029 keypunches; around a dozen teletypes; and much more. Our new > 1130 also came with manuals and source tape! Good work. IBM 1130's are rare. The last one I saw was sold for scrap in 1983. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Feb 18 00:00:06 2011 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:00:06 -0700 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <4D5E09F5.4020208@snarc.net> References: <4D5DBA6F.8020905@bitsavers.org> <4D5E0949.8050907@snarc.net> <4D5E09F5.4020208@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D5E0AE6.7070204@jetnet.ab.ca> On 8/29/2013 13:06 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I take it back ... messages arriving out of order. > Yup, a bug with the TEMPORAL DISPLACEMENT circuit. From mike at fenz.net Fri Feb 18 00:08:25 2011 From: mike at fenz.net (Mike van Bokhoven) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:08:25 +1300 Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: References: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5E0CD9.7080506@fenz.net> You're talking about two different kinds of 1084. The later model has the power switch on the back, and these were terribly unreliable. When I worked at a Commodore service shop, we'd get these in all the time for power switch replacements. The regular trick was to stick a matchstick down the side of the button to hold it in, and use the power switch at the wall to turn it on. These days, I just advise people to hardwire them closed and do the same, though I can't remember if the switch is a standard one (might have been like the standard AT power switch in a PC, my memory is terrible). The earlier one with the power button on the front seemed much more reliable (though they had line output transformer issues all the time, I'd opt for the power switch issue over that). Mike On 18/02/2011 5:16 p.m., Brian Lanning wrote: > There's a separate power button on the front. Can you just wire the > switch on the back out of the circuit? > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops back out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's familiar w/it. >> >> >> >> From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 00:17:07 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 01:17:07 -0500 Subject: VS8000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:28 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > If I remember correctly there was $250,000 license fee for the "BI > Corner" if you wanted to design your own BI board. > That doessn't sound open to me. I know there was a stiff fee, but I don't think it was quite that high when we got our BI license in 1988-1989. We ended up using an Augat "Unilayer" board - we sent Augat our netlist (generated from OrCAD for DOS and PADS-PCB on an IBM 5170 (PC-AT) IIRC), and they ran wee wires over the front and back of a pre-fabbed board that was 90% 0.1" holes and 10% BI Corner. We just had to plug in all the chips and go (the cheapest source of BIICs at that point was surplus 2MB BI memory boards from 8200/8300/8250/8350s). ISTR we calculated it was significantly cheaper to go that route than to have several dozen 10-layer boards made. I still have a few - we never sold our our first run. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Feb 18 03:35:49 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:35:49 +0000 Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5E3D75.60706@philpem.me.uk> On 08/02/11 23:58, Chris M wrote: > Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay > engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops > back out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # > on the switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case > anyone's familiar w/it. The Cheater's Way #1: 1. Find a cocktail stick, matchstick or similar. 2. Push the switch in 3. Jam the matchstick down the side of the switch, between the button and the switch casing. The Cheater's Way #2: 1. Solder a piece of mains cable across the switch terminals The Proper Fix: 1. Remove switch 2. Find another switch with identical size, pin spacing, etc. 3. Buy new switch 3. Replace old switch with new one I stand by the Cocktail Stick Trick. We had an old Sony Trinitron TV (screwdriver-adjusted tuning, all of ten pushbutton-selected channels!) which we had to do this with. Lasted another five years after the switch went... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From kgcallahan at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 16:09:45 2011 From: kgcallahan at gmail.com (Kevin Callahan) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:09:45 -0500 Subject: For the SGI guys: Craigslist FS: (2) SGI Origin 200 + Vault Message-ID: Do you still have the sgi vault for sale?? If so do you have a model number? Thanks, Kevin -- My new email is kgcallahan at gmail.com From whdawson at verizon.net Wed Feb 16 00:24:20 2011 From: whdawson at verizon.net (Bill Dawson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 01:24:20 -0500 Subject: HP Jamaica HASS deskside in search of a new home Message-ID: I was given this a few months ago and finally had the time this evening to look it over. I was told it was fully functional when removed from service last year. It's in outstanding clean condition and both bays are fully loaded with fast/wide differential SCSI hard drive modules. It is located in Washington, PA 15301 and is FREE for pick up. I prefer that it leaves here complete, but if there are no takers then I will consider parting it out. I found the Installation/Service Manual here http://www.dectrader.com/docs/set2/emr_na-lpg28396-1.pdf and everything you need to know about this beast is in there. The following modules are installed: Qty Item --- ---- 2 fan modules 6 2.0GB DF 7200 Disk Module (Seagate ST32171DC) 1 18.2GB DF 7200 Disk Module (Seagate ST118273WC) 2 A3538-67002 Power Module (equivalent to A3538-69002) Also included is the bay to bay SCSI cable and the SCSI wide differential terminator. Please reply to whdawson at my gmail.com address. d8^) Bill From indiviniti at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 01:03:54 2011 From: indiviniti at yahoo.com (indiviniti) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 23:03:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: AlphaServer 1000A - Taken Message-ID: <961056.71856.qm@web38201.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ? Thanks to all who have shown an interest, the Alpha has already been claimed. ? Dale --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Alan Perry wrote: From: Alan Perry Subject: Re: AlphaServer 1000A To: indiviniti at yahoo.com Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:06 AM Where is it? On 2/17/11 8:02 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Subject: AlphaServer 1000A > To:cctalk at classiccmp.org,chiclassiccomp at yahoogroups.com > Message-ID:<637473.29307.qm at web38208.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > DEC AlphaServer 1000A?pedestal server, in good shape, working state unknown, > but likely does.? Alpha VMS or Tru64 UNIX CD's with apps likely available as well. > Let me know asap if anyone is interested.? Ths is being cleared out of an old DEC > logistics site early this week. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 06:56:03 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 04:56:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <4D5E0CD9.7080506@fenz.net> Message-ID: <291740.76363.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:58 PM, Chris M > wrote: > >> Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in > the back won't stay engaged (you press, and it clicks, and > power comes on, but it pops back out, and monitor shuts > off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the switch, but > I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's > familiar w/it. Yup! That was a *really* common problem - as others have stated. Jamming the switch with a toothpick is the easiest option, or jumpering across it internally with a scrap of wire. You know those under-monitor power strip/switches that had a row of orange toggle switches, one for each outlet? You need one of those. No Commodore setup is complete without it. And, of course, if the little door that covers the controls on the 1084 is still there - better take it off. Those aren't allowed in a proper Commodore setup. Heh. -Ian From trebor77 at execpc.com Fri Feb 18 07:46:43 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 07:46:43 -0600 Subject: IBM 2.88 Floppy FOUND In-Reply-To: <4D5163FB.4090609@execpc.com> References: <4D5163FB.4090609@execpc.com> Message-ID: <4D5E7843.6090500@execpc.com> I found an IBM 2.88 Floppy I bought years ago. It has the cable and Mounting Brackets I never tried it out as didn't have a Computer it would work in Anyone Interested From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 08:03:04 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:03:04 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <693060.37969.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <4D5114D1.5000008@philpem.me.uk> <693060.37969.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Chris M wrote: > > --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> Surely Sarah Palin deserves a little "recognition" too? XD > > ?What the Hell does S.P have to do w/auctions??? Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and generally shooting to kill in a cowardly fashion from concealment - AIUI, she's all about that. ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 08:06:38 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:06:38 +0000 Subject: OT: high powered amps (ben) In-Reply-To: <007601cbc7d6$62afd390$280f7ab0$@otter.se> References: <007601cbc7d6$62afd390$280f7ab0$@otter.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 9:23 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: >> >> Now for the speakers ... >> http://www.decware.com/newsite/homepage.html >> If you need details on 1KW speakers, just email them for advice. >> Ben. >> PS. Remember 500 watts or more will kill small rodents. >> > > Nice! > I think I will have to stay well below 1 kW though, tempting though it may > be. I live in an apartment and using that kind of gear would probably a) > kill the cat b) get me tarred and feathered and run out of town ;-) You might be surprised at the positivity of the feline reaction... :?) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmRTGRbrATs http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYYQAmK9_qU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hk1c8WZtnU http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YnippQA9MA And I am sure there are many more... -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Feb 18 08:17:48 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:17:48 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <4D5114D1.5000008@philpem.me.uk> <693060.37969.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5E7F8C.8050501@philpem.me.uk> On 18/02/11 14:03, Liam Proven wrote: > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 11:46 PM, Chris M wrote: >> >> --- On Tue, 2/8/11, Philip Pemberton wrote: >> >>> Surely Sarah Palin deserves a little "recognition" too? XD >> >> What the Hell does S.P have to do w/auctions??? > > Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and generally > shooting to kill in a cowardly fashion from concealment - AIUI, she's > all about that. ;?) I was thinking more along the lines of "[wearing] out her eternal stay in the maw of some unspeakable creature," as Chris M. so eloquently put it. So that'll be the Abominable Snow Monster from SkiFree then. Or possibly the Grue (from Zork, of course). But I've just mentioned both of those, so they're not unspeakable creatures any more.... hmm. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 08:28:43 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:28:43 +0000 Subject: Anyone there? In-Reply-To: <4D5BF3D6.8060203@tx.rr.com> References: <4D5BF3D6.8060203@tx.rr.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Charlie Carothers wrote: > This group seems strangely quiet. ?I hope nothing bad has happened! > > BTW, I realize that none of my posts are all that important. ?However, I do > find it curious that I usually see my own posts only if someone else > comments on something I said. ?Does anyone else have this problem and/or > does anyone know of a setting I need to change to correct this? It's normal for Gmail, but you don't appear to be on Gmail - unless you're using it to collect mail from elsewhere, as I do myself? -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Feb 18 08:35:17 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:35:17 -0600 Subject: classiccmp server hardware Message-ID: A few of you might have noticed some recent problems with the classiccmp server ;) The machine has six 300gb hard drives. Two are PATA, and set up as a mirror that contains just the OS and mailing list. The remaining four are sata and set up as a zfs raidz pool. One of the two drives in the OS mirror failed. That did not cause downtime of course, but I noticed it when the other failure occured. One of the drives in the raidz set (websites, user data, etc.) also failed. Because it's raidz, that shouldn't have caused a problem. However, it marked the raidz set as failed and wouldn't mount it, saying there was not enough drives left in the set. I can only guess this was a bug in zfs on that system. Thanks to hard work from Ryan, the machine is back up. Basically he pulled dd images of the remaining drives in the zfs set, imported them into zfs on one of his machines and the data re-appeared. A two drive mirror was set up on the remaining working drives and then all the data copied back. This took a few days due to the volume of data and network links. I thought that was the end of the problems. But no...... Once the machine was back up, someone said websites were up but no mailing list (I had verified that it was back up after the data re-import). Checking again, now the last drive in the OS mirror is having read errors and is probably going to fail soon. No other systems in our datacenter are having issues like this, so I suspect it's not power related. Long story short, the machine is back up, all website/user data is restored, and there's no loss of data. However, I can't be sure it will stay up with an OS hard drive mirror set where one drive is dead and the remaining drive is having lots of read errors. My plan is to go buy six new sata drives for the server, probably 1tb's, plus a 4 port sata controller. I'd prefer to buy the drives new rather than take drives as donations just due to the above issues and time constraints. I found some seagate sata3 1tb 32mb cache drives for $60 each plus tax. Adaptec 1420sa controller is about $90, so the total is about $450. If anyone cares to donate to help cover the purchase, paypal jwest at classiccmp.org Now I just have to find another machine to move the list & web content off to, rebuild the classiccmp server, and move everything back :) Jay From jim at photojim.ca Fri Feb 18 10:19:05 2011 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:19:05 -0600 Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor References: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6BFB655E697341C9A369B91D0E2633D8@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "talk" Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:58 PM Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor > Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay > engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops back > out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the > switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's > familiar w/it. That's a common failure. I had one fail once, and had to get it replaced. Jim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 13:12:19 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:12:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 8, 11 03:58:13 pm Message-ID: > > Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay > engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops back > out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the > switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's > familiar w/it. Aren't trhere sevreral cersions of it? And IIRC at least some of them are based on a Philips shassis... In which case the switch is probably similar to something used in a Philips TV or CD player of the same period. That doesn't make it easy to get though... I think i'd be inlcined to short it out and put another switch on the device somewhere... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 13:20:52 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:20:52 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone there? In-Reply-To: <4D5BF3D6.8060203@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Feb 16, 11 09:57:10 am Message-ID: > > This group seems strangely quiet. I hope nothing bad has happened! I received nothing from the list for 2 days or so. I assume this was related to the filesystem (?) problems that were mentioned last week. It seems to be getting back to normal now :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 14:17:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 20:17:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <4D5E3D75.60706@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 18, 11 09:35:49 am Message-ID: > > On 08/02/11 23:58, Chris M wrote: > > Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay > > engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops > > back out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # > > on the switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case > > anyone's familiar w/it. > > The Cheater's Way #1: > 1. Find a cocktail stick, matchstick or similar. > 2. Push the switch in > 3. Jam the matchstick down the side of the switch, between the button > and the switch casing. > > The Cheater's Way #2: > 1. Solder a piece of mains cable across the switch terminals The Cheater's Way #3: 1: Remove swithc. 2: Dismantle switch and remove the return spring and locking 'staple 3: Modify the operating buton so you can drip it, not just press it 4: Refit it. 5: Push the switch to turn on, pull it to turn off. I did that with the mains switch in my Philips external CD-ROM drive. I did manage to get a replacemetn in the end (after I'd found which CD player it was based on, so I could order the switch for that. For some unkwn reason the serviec manual for the CD-ROM drive doesn't give a part number for the switch). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 18 14:41:26 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 20:41:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <291740.76363.qm@web121612.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Feb 18, 11 04:56:03 am Message-ID: > Yup! That was a *really* common problem - as others have stated. > Jamming the switch with a toothpick is the easiest option, or jumpering > across it internally with a scrap of wire. You know those under-monitor > power strip/switches that had a row of orange toggle switches, one for > each outlet? You need one of those. No Commodore setup is complete Incidnetally, if you don;t have switched mains sockets on your workbench (for exmaple if tou live in a country where swtiched wall sockets are uncommon), I recmennd making sa couple (at least) of 'switched mains leads). Just a 3-core cable with an IEC socket on one end, a mains plug on the other, and a double-pole switch, breaking live and neutral, half way along/. Add a neon indicator if you like, Of course the earth wire goes straight throguh (and to the box containing the swtich if it's metal). They are very useful for turning devices under test on/off without using the built0in swithc of said device (which may not isolate lal the circuitry from the amins, or which may be difficult to use safely when the devie is in bits. -tony From shumaker at att.net Fri Feb 18 15:23:25 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:23:25 -0800 Subject: Iomega Bernoulli Box 20+20 (A220H) In-Reply-To: <4D572727.4060907@brutman.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20100701171352.0ba34848@localhost>, <4C390EC0.5090003@brutman.com>, <4C5DD05D.9090906@brutman.com> <4C5D7B36.29751.2067603@cclist.sydex.com> <4C60E340.7090604@brutman.com> <4C60EB23.6000204@neurotica.com> <4C6158B0.9070804@brutman.com> <4C617EDD.8080106@neurotica.com> <20100810101619.45753o01sx0vgask@webmail.brutman.com> <4C64B0B9.7010405@brutman.com> <4D572727.4060907@brutman.com> Message-ID: <4D5EE34D.1070701@att.net> Weird Stuff Warehouse in Sunnyvale used to have a stack of various sizes in the back area at their retail store.... steve On 2/12/2011 4:34 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > It's alive! > > For those of you who don't recall a thread from six months ago, I was > trying to get an old Bernoulli Box running again. This was a Model > A220 - two 20MB 8" drives in an enclosure. I finally found somebody > with cartridges that I could purchase and was able to get it going. > > Some things I learned along the way .. > > - The head cleaning kit is essential. The drive was ridiculously > flakey until after five or six sessions with the cleaning cartridge, > which basically lets you wipe a giant wet pad on the head by > manipulating a lever through the cleaning cartridge. (Strictly a > manual operation - they don't want you to get that cartridge loaded > and start spinning it at 1500 RPM.) > > - The 20MB drives will read 10MB cartridges, but not write to them. > > - A stock XT can run with the cartridges having an interleave of 4. > That gives you about a 120KB/sec data transfer rate. > > - The Iomega controller supports DMA and PIO modes. The PIO mode is > pitifully slow. I won't mention the number here it is so bad. > > - The Iomega controller has an optional ROM that can boot the machine > from the drive, but in read only mode only. To be able to write or do > anything else you need to have a device driver loaded. > > > The drive is truly marvelous to hear in action, and it's the most > interesting drive I have in the house now. I'm finally happy that I > got it working, although it's cost too much @#$#@ money. (The > cartridges weren't cheap, nor were the controller cards, cleaning kit, > etc.) > > If anybody has 20MB 8" cartridges or knows of a source, I'm still > looking. There are some on ePay now for price that makes me visibly > wince and consider playing with click-of-death Zip drives instead. > (I'm looking for something a little more reasonable.) > > > Mike > > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 18 15:51:13 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:51:13 -0500 Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor References: <481449.35824.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <6BFB655E697341C9A369B91D0E2633D8@JIMM> Message-ID: The commodore monitors I have seem to use the same switch found on AT PC power supplies. I fixed a 1802 using one, and my 1084 will get fixed that way sooner or later (it is stuck in the on position and I use a surge strip to turn it on and off). ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim MacKenzie" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 11:19 AM Subject: Re: Commodore 1084S monitor > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Chris M" > To: "talk" > Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:58 PM > Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor > > >> Anyone familiar w/this unit? The power switch in the back won't stay >> engaged (you press, and it clicks, and power comes on, but it pops back >> out, and monitor shuts off). I imagine there's probably a part # on the >> switch, but I forgot to look this afternoon. Asked in case anyone's >> familiar w/it. > > That's a common failure. I had one fail once, and had to get it replaced. > > Jim > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Fri Feb 18 16:04:47 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 23:04:47 +0100 Subject: Anyone there? In-Reply-To: References: <4D5BF3D6.8060203@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Feb 16, 11 09:57:10 am Message-ID: <004101cbcfb7$de860140$9b9203c0$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: vrijdag 18 februari 2011 20:21 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Anyone there? > > This group seems strangely quiet. I hope nothing bad has happened! I received nothing from the list for 2 days or so. I assume this was related to the filesystem (?) problems that were mentioned last week. It seems to be getting back to normal now :-) -tony I am ;-P -Rik From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Feb 18 18:03:39 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 00:03:39 +0000 Subject: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B Message-ID: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> Well I certainly can't say this evening wasn't entertaining. Got the HP 16500B out of the cupboard. Powered on to a screen of random lines. Turns out the "base" (Bank0) RAM SIMM had slipped out of the mounting. Power off, all the blades out, push it back in, power on. SYSTEM SELF TEST FAILED: SEE SERVICE MANUAL System board: FAILED Touch screen: IMPAIRED Base RAM: FAILED Oh joy. Cleaning the (rather dusty) touchscreen surround sorted the touch screen. Reseating the other SIMM sorted the Sysboard failure, but the memory test kept failing. Swapped both SIMMs for a 64MB set I had kicking around -- thus giving me a 64MB HP 16500B. Powered back up, "SELF TEST PASSED, LOADING SYSTEM SOFTWARE." Now we're getting somewhere. Or not. "Corrupted LAN Board! LAN Not Functional!" So evidently the 28C16 parallel EEPROM on the 16500L LAN card has developed a case of amnesia (that's if the Random Lines Event didn't nuke it). I got to the System screen, but the 16555D isn't triggering, and trying to configure the Ethernet adapter hard-crashes the analyser. Does anyone happen to have a dump of the 28C16 EEPROM on a 16500L LAN card, or even a spare 16500H or 16500L card? Or an E2479A 16500A/B --> 16500C upgrade kit... or the bits of a 16500C needed to upgrade a 16500B... I think I'll stop there :P Apparently you need HP-specific Factory Test software to reprogram the EEPROM, which was AIUI never released outside of HP. I figure it should be possible to reprogram the chip with a couple of wires, some solder, and a 28pin turned-pin DIP socket, but I need a known-good image first. So anyway, I figured I'd try and soldier on and figure out what was wrong with the 386 motherboard. In with the POST card... yep, still dying at checkpoint code 06, which basically means the BIOS couldn't read the shutdown register in the RTC. Off with the old RTC socket, a quick clean up with Flux-off, and under the microscope it goes. I started tracing the under-chip tracks out, following them with the tip of a mechanical pencil. Until, that is, one of them crumbled... Hmm. Copper isn't supposed to do that. Out with the Xacto. Scrape off the solder resist... hmm, black fuzz, but no copper?! Apparently the battery did more damage than I thought! Eventually I found a total of three broken or damaged tracks, all on the data bus. I bridged them with Roadrunner wire (really thin enamelled copper wire, like transformer wire). In goes the new socket and.... 0d : 0c Hmm, still no go. So I pulled the RTC chip, put it dead-bug style on the desk, and started looking at the tracks again. And then I saw it, out of the corner of my eye... The VCC pin had broken off the RTC chip. So what did I do? I fixed it. I took a fresh turned-pin IC socket, and inserted a piece of 22SWG tinned copper wire into the top-right corner socket (i.e. VCC). Clipped it back to ~5mm, then put the socket to one side. Next, I used a triangular needle file to cut a notch into the plastic of the chip, right above the VCC pin stub. A bit of scratching with the Xacto got me enough Vcc pin stub to solder a wire to. Lightly tinned the VCC stub, just for good measure. RTC chip goes into the socket, and the stub was soldered to the 5mm VCC wire. Into the motherboard it goes. POST card in, speaker (on POST card) connected, power on. 0201... 0605... 0d0c... 1F1E... lots of hex numbers... 403F... *BEEP BEEP* dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit-dit So it's just passed the chipset and base hardware tests, proven that the mainboard and chipset are alive... and emitted two beeps for a fatal error, and eight error ID beeps. Quick look up... that's a Video RAM R/W Test error, which makes sense because there kinda-sorta isn't a video card plugged in... or anything besides the POST card for that matter. It's at about this point I shouted "King of the lab!". My mother poked her head around the door and gave me a very strange look.... So yeah, the 386 board is basically fixed. I need to hunt down a case for it (the K6 board is inhabiting the 386's old case). I might chuck the thing in the dishwasher to clean off the last bits of dirt and fluff, but at this point it's working and I'm happy. Or I would be if Ye Olde HP Boat Anchor hadn't picked tonight to turn its toes up... Guess you can't win all the time :( And if you question why I call it a boat-anchor, you've obviously never tried to move a 16500B... :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 18:09:19 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 22:09:19 -0200 Subject: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B References: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4E845D57E2114DEBA96645401C15CD3C@portajara> > And if you question why I call it a boat-anchor, you've obviously never > tried to move a 16500B... :) You never tried to upgrade it :) http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/16500upgrade/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Feb 18 18:16:29 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 00:16:29 +0000 Subject: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B In-Reply-To: <4E845D57E2114DEBA96645401C15CD3C@portajara> References: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> <4E845D57E2114DEBA96645401C15CD3C@portajara> Message-ID: <4D5F0BDD.1020303@philpem.me.uk> On 19/02/11 00:09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> And if you question why I call it a boat-anchor, you've obviously >> never tried to move a 16500B... :) > > You never tried to upgrade it :) > http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/16500upgrade/ I'd love to. If I had an upgrade kit :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 18 18:42:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:42:53 -0800 Subject: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI Message-ID: <4D5EA18D.21853.18E9431@cclist.sydex.com> Does anyone have a clue on how to interpret the binary (STORE format?) form of Rocky Mountain BASIC as used on an HP9826? Thanks, Chuck From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 19 07:44:30 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:44:30 +0100 Subject: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B In-Reply-To: <4D5F0BDD.1020303@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> <4E845D57E2114DEBA96645401C15CD3C@portajara> <4D5F0BDD.1020303@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <000f01cbd03b$25549860$6ffdc920$@xs4all.nl> Look at epay, I got mine (factory new) kit from epay a few month ago. Seller was: outback6, the outback company -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Philip Pemberton Verzonden: zaterdag 19 februari 2011 1:16 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B On 19/02/11 00:09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >> And if you question why I call it a boat-anchor, you've obviously >> never tried to move a 16500B... :) > > You never tried to upgrade it :) > http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/16500upgrade/ I'd love to. If I had an upgrade kit :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 19 07:55:21 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:55:21 +0100 Subject: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI In-Reply-To: <4D5EA18D.21853.18E9431@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D5EA18D.21853.18E9431@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <001001cbd03c$a94b2340$fbe169c0$@xs4all.nl> Use a HP 9000/200 series to load the program and then save it to ascii with the 'SAVE' command (lif disc). Or use a Viper board to SAVE it to DOS ASCII format. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Chuck Guzis Verzonden: zaterdag 19 februari 2011 1:43 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI Does anyone have a clue on how to interpret the binary (STORE format?) form of Rocky Mountain BASIC as used on an HP9826? Thanks, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 19 10:19:50 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 08:19:50 -0800 Subject: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI In-Reply-To: <001001cbd03c$a94b2340$fbe169c0$@xs4all.nl> References: <4D5EA18D.21853.18E9431@cclist.sydex.com>, <001001cbd03c$a94b2340$fbe169c0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4D5F7D26.8833.B51D3@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2011 at 14:55, Rik Bos wrote: > Use a HP 9000/200 series to load the program and then save it to ascii > with the 'SAVE' command (lif disc). Or use a Viper board to SAVE it to > DOS ASCII format. Am I to understand then that the internal binary format of RM/HP BASIC is undocumented and unknown? This seems strange for HP, who usually could be expected to document such stuff. The reason that I ask is that the customer has many disks full of the stuff and loading/SAVEing one file at a time is going to be a very long procedure. The best solution would be a batch conversion of both the programs and the data on the disks to PC-readable format. (And yes, he's got a 9121 3.5" drive that he's using to store them. Are there perhaps any 9826 emulators available that might be used for this in batch mode? --Chuck From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Feb 19 11:38:24 2011 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:38:24 -0600 Subject: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B In-Reply-To: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D600010.4010101@tx.rr.com> On 2/18/2011 6:03 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Well I certainly can't say this evening wasn't entertaining. > > Hmm, still no go. So I pulled the RTC chip, put it dead-bug style on the > desk, and started looking at the tracks again. And then I saw it, out of > the corner of my eye... > > The VCC pin had broken off the RTC chip. So what did I do? I fixed it. > > I took a fresh turned-pin IC socket, and inserted a piece of 22SWG > tinned copper wire into the top-right corner socket (i.e. VCC). Clipped > it back to ~5mm, then put the socket to one side. Next, I used a > triangular needle file to cut a notch into the plastic of the chip, > right above the VCC pin stub. A bit of scratching with the Xacto got me > enough Vcc pin stub to solder a wire to. Lightly tinned the VCC stub, > just for good measure. > > RTC chip goes into the socket, and the stub was soldered to the 5mm VCC > wire. Into the motherboard it goes. POST card in, speaker (on POST card) > connected, power on. > Way to go! I once did something very similar to a 386EX, except I used a Dremel tool to cut down into the rather hard material (a ceramic?) to access the pin stub. My ever funny cohort looked at me and asked, "Do you suppose we voided the warranty on that chip?" BTW, the board did continue to work for quite a while afterward with that patch. It saved us a bunch of time, and eventually wound up hanging on his office wall as "engineering art". Later, Charlie C. From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 11:40:51 2011 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:40:51 -0700 Subject: 386 motherboard debugged, and a dead HP 16500B In-Reply-To: <4D5F0BDD.1020303@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D5F08DB.2050307@philpem.me.uk> <4E845D57E2114DEBA96645401C15CD3C@portajara> <4D5F0BDD.1020303@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: They have been selling lately on epay for $99 + shipping... On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:16 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 19/02/11 00:09, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote: >>> >>> And if you question why I call it a boat-anchor, you've obviously >>> never tried to move a 16500B... :) >> >> You never tried to upgrade it :) >> http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/16500upgrade/ > > I'd love to. If I had an upgrade kit :) > > -- > Phil. > classiccmp at philpem.me.uk > http://www.philpem.me.uk/ > -- I've clicked for peace! Have you? www.tenmillionclicksforpeace.org/?sid=80760c414LJa5893tG4095162&s=1 From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 19 12:15:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:15:59 +0000 Subject: WTD: HP 16500B LAN card (16500L) EEPROM dump Message-ID: <4D6008DF.2030009@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Does anyone have a HP 16500B logic analyser with a 16500L LAN card installed? The EEPROM on my card seems to have been hosed, and now the analyser is refusing to boot, instead opting to display the message "Corrupted LAN Board! LAN not functional". The chip is a Samsung KM28C16, PLCC packaged, sitting next to the I/O connector on the LAN card. If anyone has an EPROM programmer kicking around, I could really use a dump of a known-good EEPROM, or alternatively a replacement 16500H or 16500L LAN card if someone has one in a parts-mule 16500A or 16500B mainframe. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 19 12:16:43 2011 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:16:43 +0100 Subject: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI In-Reply-To: <4D5F7D26.8833.B51D3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D5EA18D.21853.18E9431@cclist.sydex.com>, <001001cbd03c$a94b2340$fbe169c0$@xs4all.nl> <4D5F7D26.8833.B51D3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000601cbd061$2c7f81b0$857e8510$@xs4all.nl> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Chuck Guzis Verzonden: zaterdag 19 februari 2011 17:20 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: RE: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI On 19 Feb 2011 at 14:55, Rik Bos wrote: > Use a HP 9000/200 series to load the program and then save it to ascii > with the 'SAVE' command (lif disc). Or use a Viper board to SAVE it to > DOS ASCII format. Am I to understand then that the internal binary format of RM/HP BASIC is undocumented and unknown? This seems strange for HP, who usually could be expected to document such stuff. The reason that I ask is that the customer has many disks full of the stuff and loading/SAVEing one file at a time is going to be a very long procedure. The best solution would be a batch conversion of both the programs and the data on the disks to PC-readable format. (And yes, he's got a 9121 3.5" drive that he's using to store them. Are there perhaps any 9826 emulators available that might be used for this in batch mode? --Chuck For the HP-85 it's there, but it has other tokens. The commercial interest of RMB is a lot higher than for example HP-85 Basic, everything is sold to TransEra in the 90's. TAMS basic will read the files, it's now HTBasic but it costs a lot and the demo just works 30min. Otherwise try to get a viper board, you can place it in a ISA-machine and use the utils to convert the files. -Rik From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 12:52:03 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:52:03 -0800 Subject: WTD: HP 16500B LAN card (16500L) EEPROM dump In-Reply-To: <4D6008DF.2030009@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6008DF.2030009@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 10:15 AM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > The chip is a Samsung KM28C16, PLCC packaged, sitting next to the I/O > connector on the LAN card. > > If anyone has an EPROM programmer kicking around, I could really use a dump > of a known-good EEPROM, or alternatively a replacement 16500H or 16500L LAN > card if someone has one in a parts-mule 16500A or 16500B mainframe. > Is it in a PLCC socket, or soldered down? If it's in a socket I should be able to extract one from a 16500L sometime later today and dump its contents, after unstacking some equipment to get to it. (The 16500H and 16500L are 16500B only, you can't find one in a 16500A). -Glen From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Feb 19 13:56:01 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:56:01 +0000 Subject: WTD: HP 16500B LAN card (16500L) EEPROM dump In-Reply-To: References: <4D6008DF.2030009@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D602051.6020707@philpem.me.uk> On 19/02/11 18:52, Glen Slick wrote: > Is it in a PLCC socket, or soldered down? If it's in a socket I > should be able to extract one from a 16500L sometime later today and > dump its contents, after unstacking some equipment to get to it. It's soldered down in mine. If the machine has been back to HP with this fault, it may have been replaced with a socketed part. ChipQuik removes it fairly easily though, with zero damage to chip or board. Just takes a minute or two with desolder wick to clean up the board. I tried reading it in-circuit, but that failed -- the readback was all zeroes. I suspect either the address decoder for the EEPROM is on the LAN board, or the EPROM programmer was trying to power the entire LAN board through the EEPROM Vcc pin... Probably both. Reading out-of-circuit got me a fairly sane looking dump which ties in with what the analyser shows on the status screen: > philpem at cheetah:~/16500b$ hexdump -C EEPROM\ hosed\ MACaddr_00-00-00-00-00-00.bin > 00000000 00 00 00 00 00 00 c0 00 02 e6 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| > 00000010 00 00 00 00 41 6e 61 6c 79 7a 65 72 20 31 00 00 |....Analyzer 1..| > 00000020 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 2d 05 00 |.............-..| > 00000030 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > 00000040 00 00 ff ff ff 00 00 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > 00000050 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > * > 000002a0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff aa ff ff ff ff ff |................| > 000002b0 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > * > 00000400 00 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > 00000410 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > * > 00000550 ff ff ff ff ff 55 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |.....U..........| > 00000560 ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff ff |................| > * > 00000800 For reference, the LA tells me: LAN Address 000000000000 IP Address 192.0.2.230 No idea what the default gateway is set to -- that's on the Advanced Options screen, which I can't get to because the LAN card is hosed. Same story for the data transfer timeout I can't change any of these settings... that is, I can change them, but they don't persist across a power cycle. So we have: A 0xAA at 0x2AA (funny, 0x2AA is 0xAAA ANDed with 0x7FF, the eeprom's max address) A 0x55 at 0x555 The analyser name (used by XWin) from 0x014 to 0x02C (24 characters plus trailing null) The IP address at 0x006 to 0x009 (192.0.2.230 -- this seemed to be a random choice by the machine, because my LAN is 10.x.y.z). Subnet is determined on-the-fly by sending an ICMP request to the default gateway... Questions remaining to be answered: Where does the MAC address go? Is there a checksum? If so, how is it calculated and where does it go? For #1, I'm reasonably sure the answer is "in the first six bytes". The actual byte order will need to be determined... As for the checksum, the answer is "no bloody clue".... That 2D:05 at the end looks damn suspicious, though..... Without a known good EEPROM image, I'm flying blind :( -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 19 15:44:53 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 13:44:53 -0800 Subject: HP9826 Rocky Mountain BASCI In-Reply-To: <000601cbd061$2c7f81b0$857e8510$@xs4all.nl> References: <4D5EA18D.21853.18E9431@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D5F7D26.8833.B51D3@cclist.sydex.com>, <000601cbd061$2c7f81b0$857e8510$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4D5FC955.32065.134E94C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2011 at 19:16, Rik Bos wrote: > For the HP-85 it's there, but it has other tokens. > The commercial interest of RMB is a lot higher than for example HP-85 > Basic, everything is sold to TransEra in the 90's. TAMS basic will > read the files, it's now HTBasic but it costs a lot and the demo just > works 30min. Otherwise try to get a viper board, you can place it in a > ISA-machine and use the utils to convert the files. Thanks, Rik. I decided to take the coward's way out and refer him to TransEra. They claim not only to have HTBasic, but also other support services. There's a fair chance that he might find what he needs there. --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Feb 19 17:01:02 2011 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:01:02 -0600 Subject: classiccmp server hardware References: Message-ID: <7F93EEFC47C5444897D2D64C68568680@osa.local> Thanks to lots of generous donors, the hard drives & controller for classiccmp server are covered. Six 1tb 7200rpm 32mb cache sata 3gb drives, plus an adaptec 1420sa controller. I'm backing all the data off to external HD's, then I'll start planning the server upgrade. Thanks folks! J From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 14:12:29 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:12:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <443813.9332.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Teo Zenios wrote: > The commodore monitors I have seem to > use the same switch found on AT PC power supplies. I fixed a > 1802 using one, and my 1084 will get fixed that way sooner > or later (it is stuck in the on position and I use a surge > strip to turn it on and off). Do you mean generic AT p/s's? The original AT had a toggle switch (of sorts). Wouldn't scrounge an original AT p/s, it's worth more then the monitor... most of the generic AT units I have don't got no switch :( From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 14:35:17 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Texas Instruments Portable Professional (green) - eBay Message-ID: <79839.35362.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/TEXAS-INSTRUMENTS-PORTABLE-PERSONAL-COMPUTER-2238675-/230372288544?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item35a3422820 In Canada. offer him a 100$. My advice. I already have the color version. Got some s/w if anyone needs it. From ohh at panix.com Sat Feb 19 15:06:30 2011 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:06:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seattle: Looking To Borrow Assorted Apple Gear Message-ID: Hey, all, especially those in Seattle with old Apple gear: Seattle Repertory Theatre is producing "The Agony And Ecstacy Of Steve Jobs", a show by Mike Daisey about Apple's and Jobs' various trials and tribulations over the years. They're hoping to put together a lobby display of several of Apple's old hardware. To that end, they're looking for gear to borrow between mid-April and late May; and to show their appreciation they're offering free tickets for the production and "your picture hanging proudly next to your relic" (assuming you're interested in that, o'course). Their wish list includes: -an Apple II, IIe and/or IIc; -an Apple III; -a Lisa; -a Mac Classic, Mac SE/30, or similar; -Macintosh Portable (1989 vintage); -an early PowerBook, preferably 100 series; -a Quadra; -Newton MessagePad; -QuickTake, an early Apple digital camera; -20th Anniversary iMac, circa 1997; -iMac G3; -an early Apple flat panel display, circa 1998-2001-ish; -Power Mac G4 cube; -G4 Powerbook; and -a NeXT workstation (though I think a NeXTcube would work too). Though they didn't list it, I have to think that an Apple I would also be extremely welcome. In fact, I think the only reason they didn't put it on their list is because actually _finding_ one seems so unlikely. :) ...Anyway, if you're in or near Seattle and have some of this gear and want to support the arts and/or get your gear displayed publicly and/or want free theatre tickets, or if you have further questions, feel free to e-mail the Rep at . Feel free to forward or repost. -O.- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 15:31:11 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 13:31:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for a nice 5150/5160 in tri-state area Message-ID: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it doesn't have to work even. Just in good shape. Keyboard and monitor not needed either. Heck even an empty case would work. The expansion box would too in fact! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Feb 20 06:30:52 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 13:30:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: looking for a nice 5150/5160 in tri-state area In-Reply-To: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What tri-state area? France-Germany-Switzerland or Burma-Laos-Thailand? Is there also a totem-pole area? ;-)) (sorry, couldn't resist) Christian From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Sun Feb 20 07:59:36 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 07:59:36 -0600 Subject: looking for a nice 5150/5160 in tri-state area In-Reply-To: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7EAA1F5F-006F-4412-A509-91E32FB6E8F2@bellsouth.net> Which tri-state area? On Feb 19, 2011, at 3:31 PM, Chris M wrote: > it doesn't have to work even. Just in good shape. Keyboard and monitor not needed either. Heck even an empty case would work. The expansion box would too in fact! > > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 20 09:05:37 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:05:37 +0000 Subject: WTD: HP 16500B LAN card (16500L) EEPROM dump In-Reply-To: References: <4D6008DF.2030009@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D612DC1.8030705@philpem.me.uk> On 19/02/11 18:52, Glen Slick wrote: > Is it in a PLCC socket, or soldered down? If it's in a socket I > should be able to extract one from a 16500L sometime later today and > dump its contents, after unstacking some equipment to get to it. Glen -- don't worry about it, I've fixed it. What you do is desolder the old EEPROM (Chipquik to the rescue!), and set the first six bytes to the MAC address from the barcoded "LNC" sticker on the bottom of the card. Basically, if the sticker says: LNC: 1234567890AB You set bytes 0 through 5 (inclusive) to: 12 34 56 78 90 AB There isn't a checksum on the MAC address. I guess it just makes sure the assignee ID ties in with one of Hewlett-Packard's ID codes, and that the MAC address isn't filled with zeroes or ones... Still, at least it works now :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 11:21:38 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:21:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: <443813.9332.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 19, 11 12:12:29 pm Message-ID: > > The commodore monitors I have seem to > > use the same switch found on AT PC power supplies. I fixed a > > 1802 using one, and my 1084 will get fixed that way sooner > > or later (it is stuck in the on position and I use a surge > > strip to turn it on and off). > > Do you mean generic AT p/s's? The original AT had a toggle switch (of Yes, it was a genuine 'big red switch', built into the power supply. I've only ever seen them used on real IBM machines, butI am pretty sure some clone PSUs had casings cut to take such a switch, but with a blanking plte with a grommet for the switch cable fitted where the 'IBM type' switch would have been fitted. > sorts). Wouldn't scrounge an original AT p/s, it's worth more then the > monitor... I wasn;t aware that IBM PC/AT (or any other IBM PC family) PSUs were in any sense rare or valuable... > > most of the generic AT units I have don't got no switch :( Most of the ones I've see had a 4 core cabel ending in faston tabs to connect to the switch. the switch being mounted separately in the case. I suspexct it's that type of switch which the OP was suggesting as a spare of the monitor. -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 20 12:56:35 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 13:56:35 -0500 Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor References: Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:21 PM Subject: Re: Commodore 1084S monitor > Most of the ones I've see had a 4 core cabel ending in faston tabs to > connect to the switch. the switch being mounted separately in the case. I > suspexct it's that type of switch which the OP was suggesting as a spare > of the monitor. > > -tony Yea, those are the more common supplies that lasted into the Pentium era before everything was ATX. The switches can be found at any recycler and tend to be a perfect fit for commodore monitors (at least the 1802 I fixed). I think there are 2 separate contacts internally so you just need 2 of them to be soldered into the power circuit. The 120VAC rating should be as good or better then the original. I should have stocked up on those old AT supplies before the local recycler went bust... when you have things readily available and cheap you sometimes don't grab them thinking they will be around forever. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 20 13:06:02 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 11:06:02 -0800 Subject: Odd resistor failure Message-ID: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com> This may seem off-topic at first, but I realize that folks here do SMPSU repair a lot. My thought was that it might be applicable, since they're basically the same thing--the ballast runs the lamps with a 30-40KHz AC voltage. I've been going over a small stack of failed T8 bulb solid-state fluorescent lamp ballasts from about the mid 90's. They all have the same failure and it suprised me. There's a 2W 0.33 ohm carbon film resistor used as a current sensing element. In all failure cases, the resistor has failed open, with no signs of burning, but rather the outer paint flaking off. To me, this is a puzzle. At 120v, the current through an 0.33 ohm resistance in series with a 64W load is about half an amp. I2R gives less than a tenth of a watt power dissipation across the resistor. (There's also a 2A fuse in series with the whole circuit). I replaced the failed resistors with 5W composition ones of the same value, and they seem to work okay. But the original failure has left me scratching my head. Does anyone have an insight on this type of failure? --Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 13:17:15 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 13:17:15 -0600 Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D6168BB.80404@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been going over a small stack of failed T8 bulb solid-state > fluorescent lamp ballasts from about the mid 90's. They all have the > same failure and it suprised me. Are they all from a quite narrow timeframe - i.e. is it possible that it was just a bad batch with a manufacturing defect? Or maybe external heat build-up has killed them, generated by nearby components? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 14:16:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 20:16:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 20, 11 11:06:02 am Message-ID: > > This may seem off-topic at first, but I realize that folks here do > SMPSU repair a lot. My thought was that it might be applicable, > since they're basically the same thing--the ballast runs the lamps > with a 30-40KHz AC voltage. > > I've been going over a small stack of failed T8 bulb solid-state > fluorescent lamp ballasts from about the mid 90's. They all have the > same failure and it suprised me. > > There's a 2W 0.33 ohm carbon film resistor used as a current sensing > element. In all failure cases, the resistor has failed open, with no > signs of burning, but rather the outer paint flaking off. > > To me, this is a puzzle. At 120v, the current through an 0.33 ohm > resistance in series with a 64W load is about half an amp. I2R gives > less than a tenth of a watt power dissipation across the resistor. > (There's also a 2A fuse in series with the whole circuit). As I am sure you know, the '2W' rating applies if the resistor is in air at 20 degC or something like that. It derates as the surrounding air gets hotter. This is why, for example, a 1M, 1W resistor with a amximum voltage rating of 300V is not as silly as it first appears... But it would have to be in awfully hot surroundings for that to matter. Is it possible the resisotrs were defecting (e.g. the carbon film was contaminated in some way)? I can't think why it would matter, but is there a significant HF component to the current through this resistor? Any chance ofa very high peak voltage accross this resistor from time to time whoch could lead to flash-over between the 'turns' of the carbon film? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 20 13:56:18 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 19:56:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore 1084S monitor In-Reply-To: from "Teo Zenios" at Feb 20, 11 01:56:35 pm Message-ID: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tony Duell" > To: > Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 12:21 PM > Subject: Re: Commodore 1084S monitor > > > > Most of the ones I've see had a 4 core cabel ending in faston tabs to > > connect to the switch. the switch being mounted separately in the case. I > > suspexct it's that type of switch which the OP was suggesting as a spare > > of the monitor. > > > > -tony > > Yea, those are the more common supplies that lasted into the Pentium era > before everything was ATX. The switches can be found at any recycler and As ever, 'any recycler' depends on where you are. I don;t think I could get one that way over here. > tend to be a perfect fit for commodore monitors (at least the 1802 I fixed). > I think there are 2 separate contacts internally so you just need 2 of them Yes, every one I've seen was a DPST (double pole, single throw) switch. The cable to the SMPSU had black,white,brown,blue wires in it. 2 wires were the mains (after a filter, normally), the other 2 were ths input to the SMPSU. > I should have stocked up on those old AT supplies before the local recycler > went bust... when you have things readily available and cheap you sometimes > don't grab them thinking they will be around forever. There are plenty of things that I wished I'd stocked up on years ago too.... -tony From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Feb 20 16:03:42 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:03:42 -0500 Subject: where do I get a 18 pin DIP surface mount socket? Message-ID: <71BC19DE80F74CB1A1696ACCE7661EFB@dell8300> Working on my 701c Thinkpad I destroyed an 18 pin DIP socket (surface mount) that connects the modem card to the main motherboard. Anybody have something like this or know where to get one (checked ebay)? All the pads are still intact so soldering in another one will not be a problem. From ball.of.john at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 16:28:11 2011 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:28:11 -0800 Subject: ASR 43 Paper tape punch/reader needed Message-ID: <91D9F9E9FAAE49E3B6D154C44361AB9B@sparks> I have an ASR 43 teletype machine (though you could arguably call it a "classic" teletype as it uses a dot matrix print head and lacks that classic teletype sound) and I'm looking for the matching paper tape punch/reader that was made for it. There isn't much information about it online but the model for it is M42, M43, M4350, or something similar. It looks like a sophisticated Dust Buster. http://www.baudot.net/teletype/pics/M43-Paper-Tape-Unit-1.jpg What are the chances anyone might happen to have one squirreled away? I want to try a couple programs on my PDP and print out some test tapes for a reader built for a TRS-80 model 1. John From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 20 16:53:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 14:53:18 -0800 Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: References: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 20, 11 11:06:02 am, Message-ID: <4D612ADE.23210.1392FF6@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2011 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: > As I am sure you know, the '2W' rating applies if the resistor is in > air at 20 degC or something like that. It derates as the surrounding > air gets hotter. This is why, for example, a 1M, 1W resistor with a > amximum voltage rating of 300V is not as silly as it first appears... > > But it would have to be in awfully hot surroundings for that to > matter. And one would expect to see at least a little browning of the PCB underneath, but no. > Is it possible the resisotrs were defecting (e.g. the carbon film was > contaminated in some way)? > I can't think why it would matter, but is there a significant HF > component to the current through this resistor? Well, there's 40KHz at full line voltage flowing through it. I'm going to strip the paint off the body of the resistor and see if I can find what the failure mode is. It's very odd--I'm not used to seeing resistors that overrated failing. It could in fact be a manufacturing defect. The circuit follows a couple of reference designs with no apparent corners being cut--the PCB solder side has been sealed with a coat of clear lacquer of some sort. These, unlike some other T8 ballasts, are true 4-wire ones with a preheat circuit for the filaments--after they're powered on, about 5 seconds elapses before the HV is applied. A lot of cheap ones just apply HF to both ends of the lamp and not even bother about the filaments. I'll keep you posted on what I discover. It might be that there was simply a bad batch of resistors. --Chuck > > Any chance ofa very high peak voltage accross this resistor from time > to time whoch could lead to flash-over between the 'turns' of the > carbon film? > > -tony > > From jonas at otter.se Sun Feb 20 14:28:00 2011 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 21:28:00 +0100 Subject: Books available Message-ID: <007901cbd13c$ab42b630$01c82290$@otter.se> I don't know if this is totally off base for this list. If so I apologise. Anyway, it is "related to classic computers" (just) somehow. I have the following books available for the cost of postage: Oracle8i DBA Bible, with CD. IDG Books 2000, 1115 pages Oracle8.0.4 for Windows NT: Getting started Oracle7.3.4 Server for Windows NT: Getting started Oracle Designer/2000 Rel. 2.1 installation guide Oracle Network Products 2.3.4/Windows installation guide Oracle Net8 rel 8 for Windows NT, 95: Getting started They are in decent condition. The last one has some coffee stains. I live in Sweden/Gothenburg. Jonas From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 20 17:42:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:42:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: looking for a nice 5150/5160 in tri-state area In-Reply-To: <7EAA1F5F-006F-4412-A509-91E32FB6E8F2@bellsouth.net> References: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <7EAA1F5F-006F-4412-A509-91E32FB6E8F2@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <20110220153451.N42451@shell.lmi.net> What's wrong with saying, "I'm looking for a good looking 5150/5160 case (with or without contents)?" > Which tri-state area? Florida - Alaska - Hawaii? OB_OT: Thinking about the "4 color map" classic problem, . . . How many tri-state areas are there in the USA? Although it might not receive that appellation in desolate areas, any junction of three states with population probably calls it "tri-state". It is certainly less common than "crossroads", "lake area", "west side", or "bay area" (which obviously means SF bay, not Green Bay, Massachusetts, etc.) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jrasite at eoni.com Sun Feb 20 18:23:05 2011 From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 16:23:05 -0800 Subject: looking for a nice 5150/5160 in tri-state area In-Reply-To: <20110220153451.N42451@shell.lmi.net> References: <626825.98430.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><7EAA1F5F-006F-4412-A509-91E32FB6E8F2@bellsouth.net> <20110220153451.N42451@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <26EDD80F-6391-4FF1-98CE-2DEE061E7CF8@eoni.com> It's simple. Of the 62 points in the United States where three and only three states meet (each of which may be associated with its own tri-state area), 35 are on dry land. So it's one of thirty-five possibilities! I'm close to Oregon-Washington-Idaho.... But I don't have a nice 5150/5160. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-state_area Jim On Feb 20, 2011, at 3:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Florida - Alaska - Hawaii? > > > OB_OT: Thinking about the "4 color map" classic problem, . . . > How many tri-state areas are there in the USA? Although it might not > receive that appellation in desolate areas, any junction of three > states > with population probably calls it "tri-state". > > It is certainly less common than "crossroads", "lake area", "west > side", or "bay area" (which obviously means SF bay, not Green Bay, > Massachusetts, etc.) > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Feb 20 19:13:54 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:13:54 -0800 Subject: where do I get a 18 pin DIP surface mount socket? In-Reply-To: <71BC19DE80F74CB1A1696ACCE7661EFB@dell8300> References: <71BC19DE80F74CB1A1696ACCE7661EFB@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D61BC52.8080507@brouhaha.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Working on my 701c Thinkpad I destroyed an 18 pin DIP socket (surface mount) > that connects the modem card to the main motherboard. Anybody have > something like this or know where to get one (checked ebay)? All the pads are > still intact so soldering in another one will not be a problem. Digikey has them. Mill-Max 214-99-318-01-670800 or 214-44-318-01-670800 (closed frame), or OST BU180Z-178-HT (open frame). Quantity one prices from $1.70 to $2.14. Digikey has a $25 minimum order. To me it looks somewhat tricky to hand-solder, since they were intended for reflow. If you don't need machined-pin, and the pads are wide enough, you might try forming the leads of a conventional dual-wipe socket. From chrise at pobox.com Sun Feb 20 22:14:07 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 22:14:07 -0600 Subject: RL02 head numbering Message-ID: <20110221041407.GH4630@n0jcf.net> I'm trying to fix up an RL02 that throws constant errors in XXDP's ZRLMB1 test from head 1. In, http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL122-TM-001_techAug82.pdf "RL01/RL02 Technical Manual" on page 58, it shows upper head (1) and lower head (0). But, http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/RL02techDescr.pdf throughout refers to the upper head as 0 and the lower as 1. Which "1" is ZRLMB1 refering to? ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 13:53:10 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:53:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Liam Proven wrote: > Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and > generally > shooting to kill in a cowardly fashion from concealment - > AIUI, she's > all about that. ;?) *Sniping* on eBay has nothing to do w/shooting (or killing) from concealment. It's simply a term. If the person that got beat out didn't bid high enough, that's their problem. I once bid the exact amount someone else did on an item, seconds before it ended, but they were a second or two earlier. Life goes on. It's playing the game. If you were the SELLER and someone sniped your item, you'd be happy. All games have rules. If you've been playing for some period of time, you tend to play better then those who haven't. Life in the big city. It's all a function of who wants it and how bad. It's all fair game. My humble opinion anyway. Ebay really isn't a conventional auction is some respects. Ebay serves as a proxy for each and every bid. Technically even in a real auction sniping goes on. In the last seconds before an item is finalized, someone bids through the roof. It's all the same. I don't eat meat (anymore), certainly don't hunt, nor even kill a stink bug unnecessarily. Shooting wolves from helicopters does seem somewhat cowardly, but ESPECIALLY to other hunters who object to it. All or most hunting is cowardly. The animal doesn't stand a chance. But oftentimes that's how yuck-yucks are raised out in the sticks. To take enjoyment in spilling something's blood. For desperately needed food, well that's a different story. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 21 03:50:07 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:50:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: <4D612ADE.23210.1392FF6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 20, 11 11:06:02 am, <4D612ADE.23210.1392FF6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm going to strip the paint off the body of the resistor and see if > I can find what the failure mode is. It's very odd--I'm not used to > seeing resistors that overrated failing. Is that perhaps a so-called fusable resistor? They're intended to go open (with the paint coming off of a small spot) instead of catching fire. Christian From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 21 04:12:32 2011 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:12:32 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and generally >> shooting to kill in a cowardly fashion from concealment - AIUI, >> she's all about that. ;?) > > *Sniping* on eBay has nothing to do w/shooting (or killing) from > concealment. It's simply a term. If the person that got beat out > didn't bid high enough, that's their problem. I once bid the exact > amount someone else did on an item, seconds before it ended, but they > were a second or two earlier. Life goes on. Humm I think I'm going to disagree with you there, cirtainly about the 'from concealment' part. The way I see it, you are being sneaky by not revealing your interest in an item until it's too late for the other party to do anything about it. That is why people get pissed off with snipers. Someone will place a bid on an item, will have the high bid for most of the auction's run and then in the last ten seconds someone comes and snatches it out of their hands. > It's playing the game. If you were the SELLER and someone sniped your > item, you'd be happy. Humm seems to me if you are the seller you'd be hapyest with whatever got you the best price for the item you where selling, and as evryone seemed to previously agree *NOT* sniping drives the price up. > Ebay really isn't a conventional auction is some respects. Ebay > serves as a proxy for each and every bid. Technically even in a real > auction sniping goes on. In the last seconds before an item is > finalized, someone bids through the roof. It's all the same. Ah but in a 'real' auction you would get the chance to still up your bid and therefore win the auction, as the auction would go on until people stop bidding. Cheers. Phill. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 07:54:58 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 13:54:58 +0000 Subject: Books available In-Reply-To: <007901cbd13c$ab42b630$01c82290$@otter.se> References: <007901cbd13c$ab42b630$01c82290$@otter.se> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 8:28 PM, Jonas Otter wrote: > I don't know if this is totally off base for this list. If so I apologise. > Anyway, it is "related to classic computers" (just) somehow. > > I have the following books available for the cost of postage: > > Oracle8i DBA Bible, with CD. IDG Books 2000, 1115 pages > Oracle8.0.4 for Windows NT: Getting started > Oracle7.3.4 Server for Windows NT: Getting started > Oracle Designer/2000 Rel. 2.1 installation guide > Oracle Network Products 2.3.4/Windows installation guide > Oracle Net8 rel 8 for Windows NT, 95: Getting started > > They are in decent condition. The last one has some coffee stains. > > I live in Sweden/Gothenburg. > > Jonas You might want to investigate Bookmooch: http://www.bookmooch.com/ -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 07:58:25 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 13:58:25 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 10:12 AM, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Chris M wrote: >> >> --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Liam Proven wrote: >> >>> Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and generally shooting >>> to kill in a cowardly fashion from concealment - AIUI, >>> she's all about that. ;?) >> >> *Sniping* on eBay has nothing to do w/shooting (or killing) from >> concealment. It's simply a term. If the person that got beat out >> didn't bid high enough, that's their problem. I once bid the exact >> amount someone else did on an item, seconds before it ended, but they >> were a second or two earlier. Life goes on. > > Humm I think I'm going to disagree with you there, cirtainly about the 'from > concealment' part. The way I see it, you are being sneaky by not revealing > your interest in an item until it's too late for the other party to do > anything about it. That is why people get pissed off with snipers. Someone > will place a bid on an item, will have the high bid for most of the > auction's run and then in the last ten seconds someone comes and snatches it > out of their hands. What he said. I've used it, shame-facedly, but it's dishonest and it is an attempt to game the auction system. If I were running eBay or the like, I'd ban it and take measures to block it, such as blocking bidder accounts from bidding in the last minute by a random time increment, so you /have/ to place a realistic max bid earlier and hope. Sniping subverts how auctions work. While it's possible, very occasionally, I do it. Only if I am desperate for something and have reason to suspect it will go for more than I can afford. If I can afford a fair asking price, I bid it, manually. >> It's playing the game. If you were the SELLER and someone sniped your >> item, you'd be happy. > > Humm seems to me if you are the seller you'd be hapyest with whatever got > you the best price for the item you where selling, and as evryone seemed to > previously agree *NOT* sniping drives the price up. Exactly. As a seller, I am pissed off by snipers. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 08:38:35 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:38:35 -0500 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Message-ID: Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting for some interested builders to take on the project. As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I think if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM and/or other free/open software projects. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 08:38:35 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:38:35 -0500 Subject: GSX porting project Message-ID: <18B36C700BCB4C2F9CF2CF29C0B64A66@andrewdesktop> Hi! Recently on the N8VEM project we've developed an uPD7220 GDC display board. It can display 16 colors on a VGA compatible monitor in 640x480 or 800x600 resolution. The uPD7220 Graphic Display Controller is an intelligent controller peripheral for raster graphics. It was used in a variety of early microcomputers such as the NEC APC in the late 1970's and early 1980's. http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=333 http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=ECB%20uPD7220%20V2%20Prototype Now that the hardware is maturing, I would like to use it for a port of GSX to the N8VEM SBC V2 (Z80 based) and/or SBC-188 (80C188 based). GSX is a predecessor to the more widely known GEM graphical user interface operating system. I have PCBs for the project. There are both 8 bit and 16 bit versions of GSX roughly corresponding to CP/M-80 and CP/M-86 operating systems. The N8VEM SBC V2 already has CP/M 2.2 and CP/M 3.0 and the SBC-188 runs CP/M-86, FreeDOS, etc. The project would be porting the existing GSX code to the N8VEM hardware. Here are some useful information links on GSX-80 and GSX-86 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_Environment_Manager http://jba.freeshell.org/gsx-readme.html http://www.cpm.z80.de/download/gsxdrv-s.zip http://www.gaby.de/cpm/drilib.html http://www.z80.eu/gsx.html http://www.gaby.de/cpm/manuals/archive/index.htm http://www.gaby.de/cpm/roche/index.html http://www.gaby.de/cpm/roche/NCRGRAF.ASM (direct application to the uPD7220) http://www.gaby.de/cpm/binary.html If you are a software intensive builder you may enjoy working on this interesting project. The project would involve compiling and porting the legacy GSX sources to run the graphical primitive routines. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_Kernel_System Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 08:42:53 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:42:53 -0500 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Message-ID: Forgot the URL for the SCSI to IDE/SD project http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=SCSI2IDE Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 21 08:41:38 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:41:38 -0600 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <201102211448.p1LEmLcX017288@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 07:58 AM 2/21/2011, Liam Proven wrote: >Sniping subverts how auctions work. In the average real-world auction that I'm accustomed to, at best as a bidder you might need to register in advance. Once you're there, there is no requirement to notify all other bidders of your interest in an item. In fact, bidders tend to be quite subversive about their interest in an item, so as not to draw attention to themselves, the potentially more-valuable item, or their interest in it. You're free to bid "in the last second." Yes, the auction continues at that point, and that's different than eBay. You're not just wishing for an auction format where all bidders must make their presence known, and then a moment where no additional bidders can register before bidding begins. You can't seriously be wishing for an auction format where all other previous bidders and their max price be known before you bid. We can't just wave our hands and think that it would solve the problem if eBay extended the auction N minutes beyond every moment there was a bid. That would greatly encourage the demand for and use of automated bidding tools. Part of the appeal for buyers and sellers on eBay is that you are generally searching items you know will be for sale and that you can bid on immediately. Would you be happier if multiple proxy bidders all registered to bid and made some token bid just to be part of the game? - John From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 21 08:49:17 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 06:49:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <504153.39701.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> In a real auction however you generally have a finite number of people present, at the same time, and don't have people wandering in and out every second the auction is going on that may or may not be interested. That's a big difference IMO with an online auction vs live auction. ________________________________ From: Phill Harvey-Smith To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 4:12:32 AM Subject: Re: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! Chris M wrote: > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Liam Proven wrote: > >> Auctions, nothing. *Sniping,* on the other hand, and generally shooting to kill >>in a cowardly fashion from concealment - AIUI, >> she's all about that. ;?) > > *Sniping* on eBay has nothing to do w/shooting (or killing) from > concealment. It's simply a term. If the person that got beat out > didn't bid high enough, that's their problem. I once bid the exact > amount someone else did on an item, seconds before it ended, but they > were a second or two earlier. Life goes on. Humm I think I'm going to disagree with you there, cirtainly about the 'from concealment' part. The way I see it, you are being sneaky by not revealing your interest in an item until it's too late for the other party to do anything about it. That is why people get pissed off with snipers. Someone will place a bid on an item, will have the high bid for most of the auction's run and then in the last ten seconds someone comes and snatches it out of their hands. > It's playing the game. If you were the SELLER and someone sniped your > item, you'd be happy. Humm seems to me if you are the seller you'd be hapyest with whatever got you the best price for the item you where selling, and as evryone seemed to previously agree *NOT* sniping drives the price up. > Ebay really isn't a conventional auction is some respects. Ebay > serves as a proxy for each and every bid. Technically even in a real > auction sniping goes on. In the last seconds before an item is > finalized, someone bids through the roof. It's all the same. Ah but in a 'real' auction you would get the chance to still up your bid and therefore win the auction, as the auction would go on until people stop bidding. Cheers. Phill. From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Feb 21 09:42:28 2011 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:42:28 -0500 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <504153.39701.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <504153.39701.qm@web83903.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: that's a bit off-based, There's a finite # of people watching any given ebay item too. I've also been in auctions on ebay where there were multiple snipers present (you just know).it comes down to the luck of the timing, but moreso who bid the highest "max" on that last bid. sniping can be a great tool for when auctions end at say 4am, or in some other timezone andyou're not going to sit around trying to calculate when you should be online. when i started ebay, i bid early in the auction, but always lost, no matter what i did. then i started mixing that with sniping, just a single bid near the end.so an early bid and a single late bid with my "max". I still lost, almost every auction, but it helped. I've also been in some very nasty sniping wars for items, it gets ugly ebay isn't perfect, and sniping isn't the ultimate answer, but it does work, and does work well. sniping is still the way to go, if used responsibly, some of the tools are excellent. especially one I used you could set your time to start, the bid,and set a 'ceiling" (max) amount, and it would automatically move up towards that amount,by bidding the next "minimum" high bid up to the max, as time allowed. that works really well and you still get a bit of the luck of the draw. but the bottom line makes it exactly the same as normal bidding,whoever wishes to pay the most still wins. i dont see how that's unfair - someone may always want that item more than you,some moron on ebay may snipe the price up to 10x it's original retail price,so be it. they want it that badly, they can have it. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 21 11:22:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:22:16 -0800 Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: References: <4D60F59A.27149.6920C7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D612ADE.23210.1392FF6@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D622EC8.10087.6B335@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2011 at 10:50, Christian Corti wrote: > On Sun, 20 Feb 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I'm going to strip the paint off the body of the resistor and see if > > I can find what the failure mode is. It's very odd--I'm not used to > > seeing resistors that overrated failing. > > Is that perhaps a so-called fusable resistor? They're intended to go > open (with the paint coming off of a small spot) instead of catching > fire. I don't think so--the paint flaking is in several spots--and there's a fuse in series with the gizmo, in any case. Right now, I'm inclined to chalk it up to a manufacturing defect. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 21 11:32:53 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:32:53 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D62A1C5.5090407@philpem.me.uk> On 21/02/11 13:58, Liam Proven wrote: > Sniping subverts how auctions work. Seems the easiest solution would be to extend the auction by a couple of minutes every time someone snipes (up to a given maximum amount of time, say an hour). Which is almost exactly how it works in a real auction: "Going once... going twice..." "Fifty quid!" "Fifty quid to the gentleman in the middle... do I hear fifty-five... going once..." "Fifty-five!" "Would the gentleman in the middle care to counter? Going once, going twice. Sold." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From terry.stewart296a at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 12:00:31 2011 From: terry.stewart296a at gmail.com (Terry Stewart) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 07:00:31 +1300 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D62A1C5.5090407@philpem.me.uk> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <4D62A1C5.5090407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: This is how our auction site Trade me works here in New Zealand. Its called auto-extend. On 22/02/2011 6:32 AM, "Philip Pemberton" wrote: On 21/02/11 13:58, Liam Proven wrote: > > Sniping subverts how auctions work. Seems the easiest solution would be to extend the auction by a couple of minutes every time someone snipes (up to a given maximum amount of time, say an hour). Which is almost exactly how it works in a real auction: "Going once... going twice..." "Fifty quid!" "Fifty quid to the gentleman in the middle... do I hear fifty-five... going once..." "Fifty-five!" "Would the gentleman in the middle care to counter? Going once, going twice. Sold." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 21 12:15:36 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:15:36 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D62A1C5.5090407@philpem.me.uk> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , <4D62A1C5.5090407@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D623B48.24344.3786E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2011 at 17:32, Philip Pemberton wrote: > "Going once... going twice..." > "Fifty quid!" > "Fifty quid to the gentleman in the middle... do I hear fifty-five... > going once..." "Fifty-five!" "Would the gentleman in the middle care > to counter? Going once, going twice. Sold." Sure, and that's the way almost every other online auction used to be run, with the notable exception of eBay. Ubid.com still works that way, Excite! and Yahoo! auctions worked that way as did OnSale, all of which are history. I submit that the "auction ends precisely at xx:yy:zz" was one of the features that made eBay attractive to buyers. A sweaty-palms approach to auctions, with high adrenalin levels. Turns the whole affair into a sport more than a business transaction. Sniping does avoid the adrenalin rush. Occasionally, I'll get an email informing me that I won or lost and I'll say "Gee, did I bid on that? I don't remember." Some of that, could also be due to age and the ossification of grey matter also... --Chuck From technobug at comcast.net Mon Feb 21 12:19:35 2011 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:19:35 -0700 Subject: where do I get a 18 pin DIP surface mount socket? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C4964B6-E0A3-4824-81CD-CD7B800E82E0@comcast.net> On un, 20 Feb 2011 17:13:54 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: [...] > Digikey has a $25 minimum order. Digikey killed their minimum some time ago. To quote from their "Digi-Key Web Site Terms of Use and Conditions of Order" " 7. Handling Charge. There is no minimum order or handling fee." However, where something like the socket could be shipped US Mail for under a dollar, they stick the item in a box and UPS it for over US$ 6... CRC From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Feb 21 12:55:18 2011 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 13:55:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for Papertapes for PDP 11/05 Message-ID: <214b203d$695cccb0$61f47bf7$@com> I have a PDP 11/05 all dressed up and ready to go, stock config. Does anyone have or be willing to make copies PDP 11/05 or 11/10 papetape programs available? (diagnostics, assembler, editor, utilities). I have an ASR 33 and the computer has 8K core. Worst case I guess I could toggle in the code, then punch it for use next time! Bill Degnan From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 21 13:04:12 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:04:12 -0500 Subject: Odd resistor failure Message-ID: Chuck writes: > I've been going over a small stack of failed T8 bulb solid-state > fluorescent lamp ballasts from about the mid 90's. They all have the > same failure and it suprised me. > > There's a 2W 0.33 ohm carbon film resistor used as a current sensing > element. In all failure cases, the resistor has failed open, with no > signs of burning, but rather the outer paint flaking off. > > To me, this is a puzzle. At 120v, the current through an 0.33 ohm > resistance in series with a 64W load is about half an amp. I2R gives > less than a tenth of a watt power dissipation across the resistor. > (There's also a 2A fuse in series with the whole circuit). > > I replaced the failed resistors with 5W composition ones of the same > value, and they seem to work okay. > > But the original failure has left me scratching my head. Does anyone > have an insight on this type of failure? If the current is steady-state, your math works out correctly. But... electronic ballasts are switching devices and the current is not steady-state. If twice the current flows for half the time, then the power dissipation doubles (Remember, I-squared-R, you doubled I, so I squared goes up by a factor of four.) All that said, it has little to do with your electronic ballasts :-) I betcha the original resistor was a fusible resistor to begin with. SMPS 101: when you see a blown up or burnt out component, you can bet that some other component failed and took it out. Typically a fusible resistor will heat up to mildly-red-hot before it blows. Do the same with a non-fusible metal film and it'll be fine (if discolored!). Tim. From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Feb 21 13:04:43 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:04:43 -0500 Subject: where do I get a 18 pin DIP surface mount socket? References: <8C4964B6-E0A3-4824-81CD-CD7B800E82E0@comcast.net> Message-ID: I managed to find one from an old dead SCSI HD that I kept the circuit board from (lots of interesting parts on those). The system says all is well except the CMOS doesn't hold the time with a new battery installed, some days nothing goes well (must be the other battery). ----- Original Message ----- From: "CRC" To: Sent: Monday, February 21, 2011 1:19 PM Subject: Re:where do I get a 18 pin DIP surface mount socket? On un, 20 Feb 2011 17:13:54 -0800, Eric Smith wrote: [...] > Digikey has a $25 minimum order. Digikey killed their minimum some time ago. To quote from their "Digi-Key Web Site Terms of Use and Conditions of Order" " 7. Handling Charge. There is no minimum order or handling fee." However, where something like the socket could be shipped US Mail for under a dollar, they stick the item in a box and UPS it for over US$ 6... CRC= From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 21 13:37:52 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:37:52 -0800 Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D624E90.5555.82D72D@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2011 at 14:04, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > But... electronic ballasts are switching devices and the current > is not steady-state. If twice the current flows for half the time, > then the power dissipation doubles (Remember, I-squared-R, you doubled > I, so I squared goes up by a factor of four.) Let's do the math. Suppose the current went from 0.5A to 4A. Probably, the 2A fuse in series with this thing would blow. If that didn't happen, the resistor would be called on to dissipate about 5W-- on a transient basis, the resistor could handle this; on sustained basis, the resistor would overhead and discolor and the PC board would also be discolored. That didn't happen. The resistor is a plain-Jane 2W light-brown painted body with orange- orange-silver-gold markings. No letterings or other notations, no discoloring--just two paint chips missing from the body. I can post photos if you want. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 13:46:03 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 14:46:03 -0500 Subject: Looking for Papertapes for PDP 11/05 In-Reply-To: <214b203d$695cccb0$61f47bf7$@com> References: <214b203d$695cccb0$61f47bf7$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > I have a PDP 11/05 all dressed up and ready to go, stock config. Very nice. > Does > anyone have or be willing to make copies PDP 11/05 or 11/10 papetape > programs available? ?(diagnostics, assembler, editor, utilities). I don't have any papertape software for -11s, but here's a link to some of what should be out there... http://www.retrotechnology.com/pdp11/11_20_PTS.html > ?I have > an ASR 33 and the computer has 8K core. > Worst case I guess I could toggle in the code, then punch it for use next > time! If you can get binary file images, it's not hard to locate/buy/build a 20mA-EIA adapter to run your ASR-33 off of a more modern machine - you'd just need a way to set the serial port to 110 bps and set two stop bits (i.e., easier with a "real" serial port than with a USB-serial adapter) - then you could punch your own tapes. I've seen 20mA-EIA converters built into null-modem-sized packages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rscl.jpg), and the original IBM serial board is easy to use with a 20mA device http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/pc_pinout.html RS-232 SERIAL (COM) PC PORT CONNECTOR DB-25 DB-25 PIN (Male) FUNCTION ABBREVIATION 1 ---------------------------- Chassis/Frame Ground GND 2 ------------------------------ Transmitted Data TX or TD 3 -------------------------------- Receive Data RX or RD 4 ------------------------------ Request To Send RTS 5 ------------------------------- Clear To Send CTS 6 ------------------------------- Data Set Ready DSR 7 ------------------------------- Signal Ground GND 8 ---------------------------- Data Carrier Detect DCD or CD 9 ------------------------- Transmit + (Current loop) TD+ 11 ------------------------ Transmit - (Current Loop) TD- 18 ------------------------- Receive + (Current Loop) RD+ 20 --------------------------- Data Terminal Ready DTR 22 ----------------------------- Ring Indicator RI 25 ------------------------- Receive - (Current Loop) RD- NOTE!! Current loop technology was supported in the PC and XT interfaces. Current loop was discontinued when the AT interface was introduced. Transmitted and receive data are referenced from the data device and not the modem. What you don't get with the PC interface is the "reader run" circuit used by DEC consoles (that's why a lot of ASR-33s have a six-wire cable - transmit loop, receive loop, and RR) - but if you are punching tapes from a PC, you'll only need the one loop hooked up to your serial interface. -ethan From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Feb 21 17:16:54 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 18:16:54 -0500 Subject: Odd resistor failure Message-ID: >> But... electronic ballasts are switching devices and the current >> is not steady-state. If twice the current flows for half the time, >> then the power dissipation doubles (Remember, I-squared-R, you doubled >> I, so I squared goes up by a factor of four.) > Let's do the math. Suppose the current went from 0.5A to 4A. > Probably, the 2A fuse in series with this thing would blow. If that > didn't happen, the resistor would be called on to dissipate about 5W-- > on a transient basis, the resistor could handle this; on sustained > basis, the resistor would overhead and discolor and the PC board > would also be discolored. That didn't happen. > The resistor is a plain-Jane 2W light-brown painted body with orange- > orange-silver-gold markings. No letterings or other notations, no > discoloring--just two paint chips missing from the body. > I can post photos if you want. You might have heard the rule of thumb that "in the case of an overcurrent fault, the most expensive component in the circuit will burn out to protect the fuse". That rule is only slightly facetious. In reality almost any component (no matter what the $ value) will burn out to protect the fuse :-). You might think I'm being facetious but I'm not! I still suspect that, for example, bad bulbs or some other ballast failure had taken out the resistor. Fluorescent ballasts and CFL's are not known as places where manufacturers spend many dollars on high quality components to increase lifetime and decrease the possibility of failure. Resistor wattage ratings are not always mathematically related to the maximum voltage or current that you should put on/through the device. At the high ohm end (say a 22MOhm 1/2W resistor, which would imply 3300 volts) the calculated voltages are more than the bodies are rated for, and at the low ohm end (especially for lowest-bidder resistors) there can be weak spots in film resistors that become "hot spots" in transient overcurrents you might think the resistor should be able to survive. Good metal films can survive massive overload, and all they do is glow bright orange and burn off their outer coatings. But I strongly hint above, that such good components will not generally be found in ballasts or CFL's. Tim. From jws at jwsss.com Mon Feb 21 17:25:43 2011 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:25:43 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D623B48.24344.3786E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , <4D62A1C5.5090407@philpem.me.uk> <4D623B48.24344.3786E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D62F477.2080207@jwsss.com> This entire thread has been discussing ebay in terms that are simply not applicable to the way the site runs. It is more of a site for online sales, similar to Amazon (buy it now on epay) or "let's see what we can get someone to pay" rather than having auctions. With any bidding, you have to have some sort of time limit, of course, both to force the seller to make his mind up what he'll take, and to let prospective buyers know when to expect a decision. But all of the comments are thinking of the auctioneer at the front of the room type auction, and this isn't that. Sniping is a tool that has developed online, but I have seen it in haggling at such events as the TRW swap meet, though with face to face offers on the spot, you can get fist fights. I suspect this grabbing of an item from another without the chance of some recourse is what is causing all the emotion here about sniping on ebay. However, the rules are what they are, ebay hasn't changed them for legal or other reasons, and the simple fact is that if the item is for sale for a variable offer amount, there is no reason on ebay or anywhere else to disclose what you wish to pay until the last second, as it will allow others information to adjust their bidding. Noone on this thread has done anything but describe other sales methods, and still have not given any reason why the sniping is wrong on ebay bid sales. If a seller wishes to get more for an item, they can list the item like I do for a buy it now or offer, on an ongoing basis. It only costs me $0.25 / month to carry my items with asking prices I would like, and anyone is welcome to bid down to any amount they like and if I like it I'll take it. I find that to be a much better model anyway than asking a small amount and hoping someone will give me what I secretly hope to get for it as a seller. And I can immediately close out a sale that way, rather than waiting around for an auction to end. It would be nice if list something at some value and someone would want to pay me more, but the simple fact is I know what things are worth, and doubt that will happen. I'm not looking to set a value on an item in the market as far as a top value. I realize that this does not apply if you have some rare item that you wish to have the market show you what it is worth, but you can start the auction at what you think you want to get, and let an auction take place. Still not unfair to the seller. On 2/21/2011 10:15 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Feb 2011 at 17:32, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >> "Going once... going twice..." >> "Fifty quid!" >> "Fifty quid to the gentleman in the middle... do I hear fifty-five... >> going once..." "Fifty-five!" "Would the gentleman in the middle care >> to counter? Going once, going twice. Sold." > Sure, and that's the way almost every other online auction used to be > run, with the notable exception of eBay. > > Ubid.com still works that way, Excite! and Yahoo! auctions worked > that way as did OnSale, all of which are history. > > I submit that the "auction ends precisely at xx:yy:zz" was one of the > features that made eBay attractive to buyers. A sweaty-palms > approach to auctions, with high adrenalin levels. Turns the whole > affair into a sport more than a business transaction. > > Sniping does avoid the adrenalin rush. Occasionally, I'll get an > email informing me that I won or lost and I'll say "Gee, did I bid on > that? I don't remember." Some of that, could also be due to age and > the ossification of grey matter also... > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 21 17:58:56 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:58:56 -0800 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <4D62F477.2080207@jwsss.com> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D623B48.24344.3786E7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D62F477.2080207@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4D628BC0.111.171DE47@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2011 at 15:25, jim s wrote: > This entire thread has been discussing ebay in terms that are simply > not applicable to the way the site runs. It is more of a site for > online sales, similar to Amazon (buy it now on epay) or "let's see > what we can get someone to pay" rather than having auctions. I'll go a bit further and say that eBay is *very* different from any usual auction. Every in-person-sale-at-the-gavel auction I've ever attended allowed for inspection of the goods to be sold ahead of time. Most auctioneers want to avoid confrontation over misrepresentation. eBay doesn't accept responsibility for auction accuracy. The seller of the item puts his description up and eBay does nothing to check its accuracy unless it's very clearly fraudulent or illegal. eBay runs the timer, collects the bids and a listing fee and a commission. eBay is what it is. And sniping is just one part of it. Heck, we've all engaged in sniping of sorts. Some merchant selling something has a deadline to get the merchandise sold or face turning it over to a liquidator. On the last hour of the last day, you show up and offer him half of his asking price. He's motivated and sells it to you rather than face a bigger loss in liquidation. When Xerox closed down their business center retail chain, a friend and I showed up at 4:00 PM on the last day of the "going out of business sale'. The store manager was in charge of liquidating the merchandise and he would basically accept any offer. We filled up a truck with all sorts of goodies, from office furniture, a copier, daisy wheel printers and other such stuff. We probably could have gotten a pile of typewriters for a song, but we weren't interested. Had we made the same offer a day earlier, he wouldn't have bitten. --Chuck From evan at snarc.net Mon Feb 21 22:23:17 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 23:23:17 -0500 Subject: VCF East 7.0 updates Message-ID: <4D633A35.2010707@snarc.net> Some updates .... 1. VCF East 7.0 is on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vintage-Computer-Festival-East-70/127999343939478 Yes, that link stinks. Facebook says we need 25 page fans before we're entitled to a customized link. So please "like" and become a fan of our page ASAP. 2. Dan "Ragooman" Roganti will run a "Build your own transistor logic circuit" workshop. Neat! 3. Our exhibit registration is open at http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/index.php (click the 'exhibits' link on the top right), BUT, it currently only works for people who previously registered. It's not working for new registrants. We're trying to fix that. 4. So far we have lectures confirmed about UNIVAC/Unisys and about the heydey of homebrewed microcomputing in the NYC, NJ, and Philadelphia region. We're working to create lectures about Monrobot; Bell Labs' TRADIC; Electronic Associates; the IBM 1130; Jason Scott's Get Lamp; and our future museum plans. We'll announce those when they become official. 5. So far four exhibitors signed up. We expect 20-30 overall, in line with our past VCF Easts. 6. We'll also have consignment sales, a used book sale, and museum tours. 7. This year's VCF East t-shirt will be AWESOME. The only way to get one is to be there. :) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 22 00:17:33 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 22:17:33 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III Message-ID: <4D6354FD.7020405@mail.msu.edu> I'll attempt to keep a long story short here: I have over the past few years been putting together a MicroVAX III; I have a KA650-B CPU, 16MB of memory, a CMD SCSI interface and a DEQNA ethernet interface. A couple of years back I got a VCB02 and finally this week I got ahold of a BC18Z cable so that I can actually connect the VCB02 to a monitor/keyboard/mouse :). I've got everything installed and wired up this evening, the problem is, I can't seem to get it working. On powerup, the monitor syncs with the video signal the VCB02 is sending out (and I get a brief screen with some garbage on it followed by a black screen), and the keyboard emits a couple of very short beeps during the diagnostic cycle, but the MicroVAX doesn't seem to acknowledge the existence of the VCB02. All diagnostics pass. So, a few questions: - Is there a specific ROM version I need in order for the KA650 to recognize the VCB02? I have V1.2/0123 which seems pretty early (given that I've seen references to 5.3 on the 'net). If so, anyone know where I can find a dump? - What keyboards is the VCB02 compatible with? I'm using it with an LK201 from my VT220 currently, and all four LEDs are lit constantly, which starts me to wondering... - Are there any restrictions on slots/card ordering I should be concerned with? This is in a BA23 backplane (which originally housed a MicroVAX I) Thanks! Josh From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Feb 22 02:36:34 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 08:36:34 -0000 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5177DAA49B624EFD819C07F9E41EFFA8@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Hi This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM controller. Whilst your SCSI to IDE is nice I'm not short of SCSI drives. However with your experience you might like to comment on if you think a DEC MFM controller to IDE drive converter box is feasible. Regards ? Rod Smallwood ? ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 21 February 2011 14:39 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting for some interested builders to take on the project. As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I think if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM and/or other free/open software projects. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 22 03:55:54 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 01:55:54 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D6354FD.7020405@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D6354FD.7020405@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4D63882A.4040606@mail.msu.edu> On 2/21/2011 10:17 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So, a few questions: > > - Is there a specific ROM version I need in order for the KA650 to > recognize the VCB02? I have V1.2/0123 which seems pretty early (given > that I've seen references to 5.3 on the 'net). If so, anyone know > where I can find a dump? > > - What keyboards is the VCB02 compatible with? I'm using it with an > LK201 from my VT220 currently, and all four LEDs are lit constantly, > which starts me to wondering... > > - Are there any restrictions on slots/card ordering I should be > concerned with? This is in a BA23 backplane (which originally housed > a MicroVAX I) > > Thanks! > Josh I think I've answered my own question for the first one -- I found the V5.3 ROMs at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs and burned them, successfully upgrading my KA650 to 5.3. (I made copies of my V1.2 ROMs just in case) The machine now definitely sees the VCB02 (it shows up under the SHOW QBUS command) and appears to be trying to use it as a console at startup, but is failing: ?62 2 08 FF 00 0000 P1=00000000 P2=00000000 P3=00000028 P4=201406C0 P5=00000000 P6=00000000 P7=00FF2000 P8=2004E1C2 P9=00000000 P10=20051CE0 r0=00000000 r1=00000028 r2=00000062 r3=201407A0 r4=2004E128 r5=00007F90 r6=00FF2000 r7=00000000 r8=00000000 ERF=00000180 KA650-B V5.3, VMB 2.7 Performing normal system tests. 33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18.. 17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. Normal operation not possible. Based on my investigations, the ?62 test code is the console QDSS test, which would point to a failure of the VCB02 in some way. Anyone know how to decipher the test results? Thanks! Josh From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 22 07:45:32 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:45:32 -0000 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D63882A.4040606@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] wrote: > I think I've answered my own question for the first one -- I > found the > V5.3 ROMs at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs > and burned > them, successfully upgrading my KA650 to 5.3. (I made copies > of my V1.2 > ROMs just in case) > > The machine now definitely sees the VCB02 (it shows up under the SHOW > QBUS command) and appears to be trying to use it as a console at > startup, but is failing: > > ?62 2 08 FF 00 0000 > > P1=00000000 P2=00000000 P3=00000028 P4=201406C0 > P5=00000000 P6=00000000 P7=00FF2000 P8=2004E1C2 > P9=00000000 P10=20051CE0 r0=00000000 r1=00000028 > r2=00000062 r3=201407A0 r4=2004E128 r5=00007F90 > r6=00FF2000 r7=00000000 r8=00000000 ERF=00000180 > > > KA650-B V5.3, VMB 2.7 > Performing normal system tests. > 33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18.. > 17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. > Normal operation not possible. > > > Based on my investigations, the ?62 test code is the console > QDSS test, > which would point to a failure of the VCB02 in some way. Anyone know > how to decipher the test results? The VCB02 tech manual (EK-104AA-TM-001) should be available online. If you cannot find it, I'll upload it somewhere. It covers configuration and so on. Doesn't seem to include diagnostic output, but I did skim rather quickly. KA650-B suggests, to me, a VAXserver board. That would (iirc) have an effect on OpenVMS, but I've no idea what (if any) effect it would have on the console ROM working (or not) with the QDSS. You might want to see if anyone has KA650-A ROMs available. I do remember that V1.2 was the "minimum port from a KA630", early rev of the KA650 console code. I had a few in the lab at DEC and they were certainly less capable: no probing the bus or looking for devices etc. You definitely want the later version that you now have. (For historical purposes, it would be nice to feed your original ones back, just in case there is a use for V1.2!) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 22:40:40 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:40:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: GSX porting project In-Reply-To: <18B36C700BCB4C2F9CF2CF29C0B64A66@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <273577.66107.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I should have valid GSX images for the NEC APC III...if you should need them. If I'm not mistaken, that GSX (I always understood it to be a group of APIs more or less) runs under MS-DOS, although APC III MS-DOS. Didn't know it had anything to do w/Gem. I could scan the GSX manuals also. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Feb 21 23:08:09 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:08:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: I'm looking (been looking actually) for a Zenith Z-100/120 Message-ID: <289480.77283.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Preferably *not* the low profile version (which means to me the models that don't have a built in monitor). But then again maybe I'd be better off, because those models had RGB video capability, IINM. I don't know, tell me what you got. Also *still* looking for Atari ST/Mega/TT/Falcon stuff, working or not. Does anyone know of the Atari ST related machine that had a built in monitor? Saw the thing on eBay ages ago, should have bid on it. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 22 11:59:46 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 09:59:46 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D63F992.8060509@mail.msu.edu> On 2/22/2011 5:45 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] wrote: >> I think I've answered my own question for the first one -- I >> found the >> V5.3 ROMs at http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs >> and burned >> them, successfully upgrading my KA650 to 5.3. (I made copies >> of my V1.2 >> ROMs just in case) >> >> The machine now definitely sees the VCB02 (it shows up under the SHOW >> QBUS command) and appears to be trying to use it as a console at >> startup, but is failing: >> >> ?62 2 08 FF 00 0000 >> >> P1=00000000 P2=00000000 P3=00000028 P4=201406C0 >> P5=00000000 P6=00000000 P7=00FF2000 P8=2004E1C2 >> P9=00000000 P10=20051CE0 r0=00000000 r1=00000028 >> r2=00000062 r3=201407A0 r4=2004E128 r5=00007F90 >> r6=00FF2000 r7=00000000 r8=00000000 ERF=00000180 >> >> >> KA650-B V5.3, VMB 2.7 >> Performing normal system tests. >> 33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..24..23..22..21..20..19..18.. >> 17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..08..07..06..05..04..03.. >> Normal operation not possible. >> >> >> Based on my investigations, the ?62 test code is the console >> QDSS test, >> which would point to a failure of the VCB02 in some way. Anyone know >> how to decipher the test results? > The VCB02 tech manual (EK-104AA-TM-001) should be available online. If > you cannot > find it, I'll upload it somewhere. It covers configuration and so on. > Doesn't > seem to include diagnostic output, but I did skim rather quickly. Thanks -- I don't know why I didn't think to look at that in the first place. Turns out there are diagnostic LEDs on the board (helpful!) and they indicate "keyboard failure". This is the only compatible keyboard I have, and I had previously been using it with my VT220, so I was fairly sure it was working (but it's been at least a year since I last powered it on). I dug out my VT220 and sure enough, the keyboard fails there too... So... problem solved, I just need to find a working keyboard :). > KA650-B suggests, to me, a VAXserver board. That would (iirc) have an > effect > on OpenVMS, but I've no idea what (if any) effect it would have on the > console > ROM working (or not) with the QDSS. You might want to see if anyone has > KA650-A ROMs available. > > I do remember that V1.2 was the "minimum port from a KA630", early rev > of > the KA650 console code. I had a few in the lab at DEC and they were > certainly less capable: no probing the bus or looking for devices etc. > You definitely want the later version that you now have. (For historical > purposes, it would be nice to feed your original ones back, just in case > there is a use for V1.2!) I have made images, if anyone's looking :). Thanks! Josh > Antonio > arcarlini at iee.org > > > > From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 22 12:02:10 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:02:10 -0500 Subject: VCF East 7.0 updates In-Reply-To: <4D633A35.2010707@snarc.net> References: <4D633A35.2010707@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D63FA22.9000007@snarc.net> > 1. VCF East 7.0 is on Facebook: > http://www.facebook.com/pages/Vintage-Computer-Festival-East-70/127999343939478 > > > Yes, that link stinks. Facebook says we need 25 page fans before > we're entitled to a customized link. So please "like" and become a > fan of our page ASAP. We are now officially facebook.com/vcfeast7 .... although our main home is still http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/ From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 22 12:11:54 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:11:54 -0000 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D63F992.8060509@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <46EDCACD8B2A42F7BE56810A9BDFE156@ANTONIOPC> Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] wrote: > Thanks -- I don't know why I didn't think to look at that in > the first > place. Turns out there are diagnostic LEDs on the board (helpful!) > and they indicate "keyboard failure". This is the only I should have read the manual more carefully but I had something to get done on the car before it got dark. I'll pretend it was much better in the long run you get you to read it :-) I was surprised that in my quick skim I didn't see any mention of the sorts of errors you might see on the console for various errors. I think there's a way of booting the uVAX as though the graphics board were not there: some setting(s) of the various switches. Hopefully someone with a better memory will remember how that's done. If you can do that, then the OS might still initialise the graphics and you'll have at least half a workstation. That manual also covers the LK250 in some detail. Possibly not enoguh detail to fix it, but I *think* the schematics are up on bitsavers (perhaps part of another manual, I'm sure I've seen them somewhere). How hard can it be to fix a keyboard ? > I have made images, if anyone's looking :). Hopefully Pete will take them and add them to the archive. I'd take them but I'd probably lose them before needing them :-) Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 12:37:59 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:37:59 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D63F992.8060509@mail.msu.edu> References: <4D63F992.8060509@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:59 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > So... problem solved, I just need to find a working keyboard :). > Last time I was at RE-PC Tukwila they had a few LK201s in their random keyboard box for something like $5 each and I picked up one or two at the time. That was a few months back and no idea if they have any there now. -Glen From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 12:54:42 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:54:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Feb 21, 11 06:16:54 pm Message-ID: > You might have heard the rule of thumb that "in the case of an overcurrent > fault, the most expensive component in the circuit will burn out to protect > the fuse". That rule is only slightly facetious. In reality almost any comp= I always heard it as 'A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse will protect the fuse by blowing first'. However, I've always found that a transisotr protected by an expensive fast-acting fuse will always fail short-circuit, thus ensuring the fuse blows too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 13:47:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:47:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <46EDCACD8B2A42F7BE56810A9BDFE156@ANTONIOPC> from "arcarlini@iee.org" at Feb 22, 11 06:11:54 pm Message-ID: > That manual also covers the LK250 in some detail. Possibly not Is it an LK250 or an LK201? The latter goes with the VT220, etc. The former from what I refall is the PC/AT compatible keyboard with much the smae layout. > enoguh detail to fix it, but I *think* the schematics are up on > bitsavers (perhaps part of another manual, I'm sure I've seen > them somewhere). I reverse-engieered it years ago. It's very simple. An 8051 microcontrolelr, a couple of TTL decoders, RS232 level shifter and a 7805 regualtor basically. And the membrane keybaord assembly. > > How hard can it be to fix a keyboard ? Well, the mcirocontroller is custom-programmed... The membrane assembly (whcih is what normally fails) is heat-staked toether. You can unclip all the keycaps but that doens't do you a lot of good. Yes, you can cut away the heat stakes and take the whole lot apart, but how on earth do you get it to stary reassembled. There isn't enough plastic left to form the mins over for a second time -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 22 13:42:44 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:42:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D63F992.8060509@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Feb 22, 11 09:59:46 am Message-ID: > Thanks -- I don't know why I didn't think to look at that in the first > place. Turns out there are diagnostic LEDs on the board (helpful!) and > they indicate "keyboard failure". This is the only compatible keyboard > I have, and I had previously been using it with my VT220, so I was > fairly sure it was working (but it's been at least a year since I last > powered it on). I dug out my VT220 and sure enough, the keyboard fails > there too... Most of the time LK201s fail becuase of a problem with the membrane switches, not the cotnroller board. You might try taking it apart (the screws are under the push-in plastic feet), remvoig nthe unit from the bottom case (frob the clip and slidt it to release it), then removing the control PCB fixings (clip on the regulator, and 1 screw). Then bend up the tabs on the metal clamps that hold the mebrrane tails to the PCB and take them off. Try connectin the PCB alone to the VT220. If it passes, try it on the microvax too. If will at least let yoy know if the latter is likely to work with a good keybaord. Alas I have never managed to dismantle the heat-staked membane in a way taht it can be reassembled :-( -tony From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Feb 22 14:01:20 2011 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:01:20 +0000 Subject: [OT] Sunfire V880 Diagnostic Key Message-ID: <0D628B28-11C9-4EC3-B086-E7B5D17B8C90@ozpass.co.uk> I hope that you can forgive the off-topic post, but I find myself in desperate need of a "diagnostic" key for a Sun Fire V880. They're the same for all v880's but I can't get similar ones to fit. I live in the uk and will willingly send beer vouchers in exchange. -Austin. Sent from my iPhone From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Feb 22 14:02:10 2011 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:02:10 -0000 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4ECDE56F6EE843B29B6606FFF9C22D49@ANTONIOPC> Tony Duell [ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk] wrote: > Is it an LK250 or an LK201? LK201 - I mistyped/misremembered. Antonio From dundas at caltech.edu Tue Feb 22 15:05:36 2011 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:05:36 -0800 Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: <20110221041407.GH4630@n0jcf.net> References: <20110221041407.GH4630@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: At 10:14 PM -0600 2/20/11, Chris Elmquist wrote: >In, >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL122-TM-001_techAug82.pdf >"RL01/RL02 Technical Manual" > >on page 58, it shows upper head (1) and lower head (0). > >But, >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/RL02techDescr.pdf > >throughout refers to the upper head as 0 and the lower as 1. I don't know the answer, but I certainly see the confusion. A later revision (-002) of that manual updates the Figure 1-6 on page I/1-9 and explicitly labels the heads upper (1) and lower (0) while retaining the text throughout that refers to them as the opposite of that. Interesting and confusing! I guess you'll have to measure to find out. John From jlobocki at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 10:32:46 2011 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:32:46 -0600 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <5177DAA49B624EFD819C07F9E41EFFA8@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <5177DAA49B624EFD819C07F9E41EFFA8@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: hello, I'd be in on one, except for the fact that I have very little basic knowledge on how to write code that would make it function. Regards, -Joe On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 2:36 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > > Hi > This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly > different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I > need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM > controller. > > Whilst your SCSI to IDE is nice I'm not short of SCSI drives. However with > your experience you might like to comment on if you think a DEC MFM > controller to IDE drive converter box is feasible. > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: 21 February 2011 14:39 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open > SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 > with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting for > some interested builders to take on the project. > > > > As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I > think > if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real > progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if > anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me > know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM > and/or other free/open software projects. > > > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory > > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 13:53:44 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 11:53:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: IBM PC-Radio Message-ID: <537536.82954.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Hi Is me and Uncle Roger and the other dude in Italy the only ones w/these things? I have 2, but neither turn on. Anyone know what type of power it requires? I had thought these had color stn displays or something, but now I'm thinking they're just mono. Halp. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 14:00:10 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 12:00:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: an amazing device for your perusal Message-ID: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Amiga-Atari-St-Amstrad-PC-floppy-disk-drive-EMULATOR-/110648496807?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item19c32a12a7 Andrew? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 15:12:38 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 13:12:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone in Ft.Lauderdale that can do me a big flavor? Message-ID: <721990.12489.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> It involves shipping an item. I can help the same person out if they need helps up here... From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 22 17:14:48 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:14:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: an amazing device for your perusal In-Reply-To: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I honestly question the claims it can be used on all those machines, without some supporting data. If this is a "PC Floppy Emulator", you'll probably need a Catweasel board to use it on an Amiga. Zane On Tue, 22 Feb 2011, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Amiga-Atari-St-Amstrad-PC-floppy-disk-drive-EMULATOR-/110648496807?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item19c32a12a7 > > Andrew? > > > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 22 17:22:02 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:22:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about this device? http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/chameleon_e.htm Zane From doc at vaxen.net Tue Feb 22 17:42:11 2011 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 17:42:11 -0600 Subject: Books available in Santa Cruz, CA Message-ID: <4D6449D3.402@vaxen.net> Forwarded for a friend... Doc Subject: Free To Good Homes: books of datasheets in Santa Cruz, CA I've been alerted to free datasheets and other similar materials from the 1980s at UC Santa Cruz. The books are on the first floor of the Jack Baskin Engineering building at UCSC. Photos and more information are here: http://bluebox.celestrion.net/ucsc-books/ -- Jonathan Patschke From shumaker at att.net Tue Feb 22 18:06:52 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:06:52 -0800 Subject: I'm looking (been looking actually) for a Zenith Z-100/120 In-Reply-To: <289480.77283.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <289480.77283.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D644F9C.5030205@att.net> there are a couple variations of the Z121 on EPAy with BIN prices in the $100 range at the moment. steve On 2/21/2011 9:08 PM, Chris M wrote: > Preferably *not* the low profile version (which means to me the models that don't have a built in monitor). But then again maybe I'd be better off, because those models had RGB video capability, IINM. I don't know, tell me what you got. > > Also *still* looking for Atari ST/Mega/TT/Falcon stuff, working or not. > > Does anyone know of the Atari ST related machine that had a built in monitor? Saw the thing on eBay ages ago, should have bid on it. > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 22 18:08:18 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:08:18 -0800 Subject: an amazing device for your perusal In-Reply-To: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D63DF72.30815.16B48CB@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2011 at 12:00, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/Amiga-Atari-St-Amstrad-PC-floppy-disk-drive-EMULAT > OR-/110648496807?pt=AU_Computers_Vintage&hash=item19c32a12a7 > > Andrew? No, me--but it looks to be the HxC emulator, a project that's been going for at least 5 years. Read all about it here: http://www.torlus.com/floppy/ The price seems a bit high, though. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Feb 22 18:10:33 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:10:33 -0800 Subject: Odd resistor failure In-Reply-To: References: from "Shoppa, Tim" at Feb 21, 11 06:16:54 pm, Message-ID: <4D63DFF9.27235.16D592C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2011 at 18:54, Tony Duell wrote: > I always heard it as 'A transistor protected by a fast-acting fuse > will protect the fuse by blowing first'. However, I've always found > that a transisotr protected by an expensive fast-acting fuse will > always fail short-circuit, thus ensuring the fuse blows too... A friend who was a field engineer for DEC used to grumble about DEC and their "transistor-protected fuses". She worked mostly on DEC PDP- 10s. --Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 22 18:17:55 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:17:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: an amazing device for your perusal In-Reply-To: <4D63DF72.30815.16B48CB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D63DF72.30815.16B48CB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > No, me--but it looks to be the HxC emulator, a project that's been > going for at least 5 years. Read all about it here: > > http://www.torlus.com/floppy/ > > The price seems a bit high, though. > > --Chuck Wow! I guess it does work on the Amiga. Now that would be cool for my Amiga 500, as I think the floppy drive is dead. :-( Still, I don't really need it, no time to play with old computers, and the money is better spent elsewhere... :-( Zane From rogpugh at mac.com Tue Feb 22 18:35:43 2011 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:35:43 +0000 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D64565F.9020705@mac.com> On 02/22/2011 23:22, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this device? > > http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/chameleon_e.htm > Its also on here.. It has been "available soon" for about a year/ http://www.vesalia.de/e_chameleon.htm From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 22 18:43:17 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 00:43:17 +0000 Subject: Books available in Santa Cruz, CA In-Reply-To: <4D6449D3.402@vaxen.net> References: <4D6449D3.402@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4D645825.6080704@philpem.me.uk> On 22/02/11 23:42, Doc Shipley wrote: > Photos and more information are here: > http://bluebox.celestrion.net/ucsc-books/ DAMN. Wish I was nearby, I'd take just about the entire contents of that bookcase! You can never have too many databooks -- invariably the datasheet you need is in the one you don't have! -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jelynch at stny.rr.com Tue Feb 22 19:05:37 2011 From: jelynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:05:37 -0500 Subject: Books available in Santa Cruz, CA In-Reply-To: <4D645825.6080704@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D6449D3.402@vaxen.net> <4D645825.6080704@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D645D61.7040507@stny.rr.com> On 2/22/2011 7:43 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 22/02/11 23:42, Doc Shipley wrote: >> Photos and more information are here: >> http://bluebox.celestrion.net/ucsc-books/ > > DAMN. Wish I was nearby, I'd take just about the entire contents of > that bookcase! > > You can never have too many databooks -- invariably the datasheet you > need is in the one you don't have! > Man, I would like to get the DATEL Data Conversion Catalog. From brain at jbrain.com Tue Feb 22 19:21:26 2011 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:21:26 -0600 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4D646116.7020008@jbrain.com> On 2/21/2011 7:58 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> Humm seems to me if you are the seller you'd be hapyest with whatever got >> you the best price for the item you where selling, and as evryone seemed to >> previously agree *NOT* sniping drives the price up. > Exactly. As a seller, I am pissed off by snipers. Hmm, I am a seller, and I don't feel that moved by it. As I see it: * I *chose* to offer my product there. I did my research, I know how the system works. I thus agree to be bound by the "in play" rules when I list my item. * What works against me as a seller works for me as a buyer. Since I use the system both ways, I find the balance equitable. Of course, if you only sell, then this is not true. It seems to me this discussion boils down to: claims it is a , but it allows which is not allowed in a real . Thus, should be disallowed, as it ruins the experience! In this case, I think you'd have more luck starting a movement to have eBay quit referring to itself as an auction site. In fact, I am not absolutely sure if they actually do continue to refer to themselves that way, but if they do, they'd probably be willing to quit, since they now offer many more sales options. Snipe away, I say! Jim From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 21:14:31 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:14:31 -0600 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this device? > > http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/chameleon_e.htm It's supposed to be out around the first half of this year. It's basically a do-all cartridge for the c64. I want one, but they're going to be pricey, I think around $150. Here's what the site says ? VGA-output with 60 Hz refresh rate or more ? Turbo function with full 6510 processor compatibility (incl. illegal opcodes) ? Cycle-exact REU (memory expansion) with 16 MB RAM ? MMC/SD card slot with MMC64 compatibility and 1541-emulation ? Connector for PS/2 mouse and PS/2 keyboard ? Freezer (compatible with Retro Replay / MMC Replay) ? Bright yellow case with blue buttons ? Battery-backed real time clock (battery not included) ? IR receiver for CDTV remote control ? Stereo audio out for stereo SID emulation ? USB link to a PC for debugging and data transfer ? Connector for RR-Net (10 Mbit Ethernet) Jens Schoenfeld is a great guy. He's been making upgrades for the amiga for a while. I've used a couple of them. His hardware has been very high quality. My only complaint has been the software for the catweasel. But he's not really a software guy so I guess that's no surprise. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 21:15:36 2011 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:15:36 -0600 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 5:22 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Does anyone know anything about this device? >> >> http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/chameleon_e.htm > > > It's supposed to be out around the first half of this year. > > It's basically a do-all cartridge for the c64. ?I want one, but > they're going to be pricey, I think around $150. More like $250 I guess. :-/ From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Feb 22 21:42:45 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:42:45 -0800 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 9:14 PM -0600 2/22/11, Brian Lanning wrote: >Jens Schoenfeld is a great guy. He's been making upgrades for the >amiga for a while. I've used a couple of them. His hardware has been >very high quality. My only complaint has been the software for the >catweasel. But he's not really a software guy so I guess that's no >surprise. Don't even get me started on the subject of software support for the Catweasel. I bought a Zorro Catweasel back around '98, and I'm *STILL* pissed off by the false advertising! Don't tell me a product supports formats, if the software to support them doesn't exist!!! >:-( I like my Retro-Replay/MMC thing, and RR-Net. Though I prefer Jim's SD card interface that I have by far. Basically my C-64 is the only thing I've really played with in the classic computing world for the last few years. At 9:15 PM -0600 2/22/11, Brian Lanning wrote: >On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 9:14 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > > It's basically a do-all cartridge for the c64. I want one, but > > they're going to be pricey, I think around $150. > >More like $250 I guess. :-/ Yeah, I saw the 200 Euro price. I don't need the RR-Net, as it looks like I can plug my existing one in, and I like the idea of a REU & accelerator. Plus a VGA port is a nice addition. Realistically for what it is, that's not that bad of a price, and there is a good chance I'll buy it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Feb 22 22:32:58 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:32:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Feb 22, 11 07:42:45 pm" Message-ID: <201102230432.p1N4Wwqh016444@floodgap.com> > Yeah, I saw the 200 Euro price. I don't need the RR-Net, as it looks > like I can plug my existing one in, and I like the idea of a REU & > accelerator. Plus a VGA port is a nice addition. Realistically for > what it is, that's not that bad of a price, and there is a good > chance I'll buy it. I've got my pennies saved too. I think it'll be a nice little device. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 22 23:03:19 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:03:19 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <46EDCACD8B2A42F7BE56810A9BDFE156@ANTONIOPC> References: <46EDCACD8B2A42F7BE56810A9BDFE156@ANTONIOPC> Message-ID: <4D649517.8090600@mail.msu.edu> On 2/22/2011 10:11 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] wrote: >> Thanks -- I don't know why I didn't think to look at that in >> the first >> place. Turns out there are diagnostic LEDs on the board (helpful!) >> and they indicate "keyboard failure". This is the only > I should have read the manual more carefully but I had something to > get done on the car before it got dark. I'll pretend it was much better > in the long run you get you to read it :-) > > I was surprised that in my quick skim I didn't see any mention of the > sorts of errors you might see on the console for various errors. I didn't see anything about test codes/errors either, but I found the section on the diagnostic LEDs and that's fortunately all I need :). > I think there's a way of booting the uVAX as though the graphics > board were not there: some setting(s) of the various switches. > Hopefully someone with a better memory will remember how that's done. I can still get it to boot via a serial console without any issues, fortunately. > If you can do that, then the OS might still initialise the graphics > and you'll have at least half a workstation. All I have running at the moment is OpenBSD, I'm hoping to get VMS running on it shortly once I get a working keyboard. >> I have made images, if anyone's looking :). > Hopefully Pete will take them and add them to the archive. > > I'd take them but I'd probably lose them before needing them :-) Just for future reference, I've thrown them up here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/software/vax/ka650/v1.2/ Feel free to grab them :). - Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 22 23:25:51 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 21:25:51 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D649A5F.3020005@mail.msu.edu> On 2/22/2011 11:42 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Thanks -- I don't know why I didn't think to look at that in the first >> place. Turns out there are diagnostic LEDs on the board (helpful!) and >> they indicate "keyboard failure". This is the only compatible keyboard >> I have, and I had previously been using it with my VT220, so I was >> fairly sure it was working (but it's been at least a year since I last >> powered it on). I dug out my VT220 and sure enough, the keyboard fails >> there too... > Most of the time LK201s fail becuase of a problem with the membrane > switches, not the cotnroller board. > > You might try taking it apart (the screws are under the push-in plastic > feet), remvoig nthe unit from the bottom case (frob the clip and slidt it > to release it), then removing the control PCB fixings (clip on the > regulator, and 1 screw). Then bend up the tabs on the metal clamps that > hold the mebrrane tails to the PCB and take them off. > > Try connectin the PCB alone to the VT220. If it passes, try it on the > microvax too. If will at least let yoy know if the latter is likely to > work with a good keybaord. I just got done trying this. No dice, with the membrane disconnected 3 of the LEDs light up constantly and that's it (no beeps or anything else). With the membrane connected I get 4 LEDs and a few very short (shorter than I recall under normal circumstances) beeps. So perhaps the membrane isn't to blame in this case. Thanks for the suggestion, though. Maybe later this week I'll have some time to do some debugging on it... Josh > Alas I have never managed to dismantle the heat-staked membane in a way > taht it can be reassembled :-( > > -tony > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Feb 23 01:53:41 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:53:41 +0100 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110223075340.GA16455@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 03:22:02PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Does anyone know anything about this device? > > http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/chameleon_e.htm > > Zane I meet Jens a few years ago where he showed a prototype (not plugged into anything). Since then I've mailed him from time to time and asked him for status. Last time was September 24, last year and he said: > Boards are here, parts are here, cases are modded and ready - if the > whole project wouldn't be ongoing for almost five years now, I'd say > "we're on track" ;-) I also sent me some pics of a late prototype: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/chameleon/ He also said that he has added a few features and wants to stay below 200 EUR (including vat). I'll send him another email now and see whats going on :) Regards, Pontus. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Feb 23 03:31:39 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:31:39 +0100 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <20110223075340.GA16455@Update.UU.SE> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <20110223075340.GA16455@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20110223093139.GA21586@Update.UU.SE> > I'll send him another email now and see whats going on :) I mailed Jens of icomp and got a reply really fast: >We'll deliver the first units this week - extremely busy right now. >Just join the Chameleon Yahoo group to get the idea of what's working >and what's not: > >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/ Cheers, Pontus. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 06:18:49 2011 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:18:49 +0000 Subject: Sniping Does Not Require Justification! In-Reply-To: <201102211448.p1LEmLcX017288@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <71804.52383.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D623A90.8020006@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <201102211448.p1LEmLcX017288@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 2:41 PM, John Foust wrote: > At 07:58 AM 2/21/2011, Liam Proven wrote: >>Sniping subverts how auctions work. > > In the average real-world auction that I'm accustomed to, at best > as a bidder you might need to register in advance. ?Once you're there, > there is no requirement to notify all other bidders of your interest > in an item. ?In fact, bidders tend to be quite subversive about their > interest in an item, so as not to draw attention to themselves, the > potentially more-valuable item, or their interest in it. ?You're > free to bid "in the last second." ?Yes, the auction continues at > that point, and that's different than eBay. I don't know who or what you're replying to, but it doesn't appear to have anything to do with my points. > You're not just wishing for an auction format where all bidders > must make their presence known, and then a moment where no additional > bidders can register before bidding begins. Nothing I mentioned has anything to do with this. >?You can't seriously > be wishing for an auction format where all other previous bidders > and their max price be known before you bid. ?We can't just wave > our hands and think that it would solve the problem if eBay extended > the auction N minutes beyond every moment there was a bid. ?That would > greatly encourage the demand for and use of automated bidding tools. No idea. Nothing to do with me. > Part of the appeal for buyers and sellers on eBay is that you are > generally searching items you know will be for sale and that you > can bid on immediately. ?Would you be happier if multiple proxy > bidders all registered to bid and made some token bid just to > be part of the game? Again, no comment; this is not a reply to my points. I do like the auto-extend idea that others have suggested, though - a great deal. -- Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 06:25:16 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:25:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Feb 2011, Brian Lanning wrote: > Jens Schoenfeld is a great guy. He's been making upgrades for the amiga > for a while. I've used a couple of them. His hardware has been very > high quality. My only complaint has been the software for the > catweasel. But he's not really a software guy so I guess that's no > surprise. And, since there's clearly no further development for the "official" CW software, it's hightly annoying that he has not offered source code to permit others to pick up the baton. The technical documentation for the CW is a real mess and even after about 5 read-throughs is just short of incomprehensible. It's one of those documents that probably works great for the CW developer when they need a refresh on ports / bit settings, but fails to provide enough context for someone not intimate with device already. My hat is off to any third parties able to figure out how to write software against the API. I'd rather put my hard-earned $$$ behind Philip Pemberton's DiscFerret. In fact I HAVE done so. Staring at one right now. Knowning Philip's penchant for throroughness, I have no doubt that the documentation quality will be good and the API understandable and usable. Steve -- From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 23 08:30:18 2011 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 06:30:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <20110223093139.GA21586@Update.UU.SE> from Pontus Pihlgren at "Feb 23, 11 10:31:39 am" Message-ID: <201102231430.p1NEUIfV019952@floodgap.com> > I mailed Jens of icomp and got a reply really fast: > > >We'll deliver the first units this week - extremely busy right now. > >Just join the Chameleon Yahoo group to get the idea of what's working > >and what's not: > > > >http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/ Thanks for the link. It seems like there's some roughness with the turbo, though I suppose this is to be expected with v1.0. I might wait until the firmware is more settled, then grab one or two. In operation: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/9 No turbo yet: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/60 Disk image compatibility: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/chameleon_64/message/36 -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whatever it is, I'm against it. -- Groucho Marx ---------------------------- From trebor77 at execpc.com Wed Feb 23 08:33:08 2011 From: trebor77 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:33:08 -0600 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Message-ID: <4D651AA4.4040404@execpc.com> This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM controller. I concur. I have a CompuPro 816 System with a Q540 MFM 40 Meg HD that is getting shaky. Sure would like to be able to use an IDE of which I have several that would work. Lets hope others will pick up the thread and maybe Andrews Group will consider creating a MFM to IDE adapter Board that would insert between the MFM Cables and the IDE Drive. I'm sure there is a lot of Older CP/M machines out there that would benefit. Bob in Wisconsin From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Feb 23 09:05:46 2011 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 07:05:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Radius Pivot monitor help needed Message-ID: Has anyone ever worked with a Radius Pivot monitor? I'm trying to get one hooked up to a Mac IIci or IIsi but I need drivers and an appropriate video card. I'm pretty sure I have both but finding them at this point will be a major pain. If anyone has the drivers handy, and can let me know what an approproiate video card would be to interface the monitor to a Mac, I would greatly appreciate the help. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Feb 23 09:59:31 2011 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:59:31 -0500 Subject: Radius Pivot monitor help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <667CE0F2-936D-4F4F-8508-DD321A7A1DC0@colourfull.com> Sellam, What model Pivot do you have? Certain Pivot's reguired a piivot card. Rob On Feb 23, 2011, at 10:05 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Has anyone ever worked with a Radius Pivot monitor? I'm trying to get one > hooked up to a Mac IIci or IIsi but I need drivers and an appropriate > video card. > > I'm pretty sure I have both but finding them at this point will be a major > pain. If anyone has the drivers handy, and can let me know what an > approproiate video card would be to interface the monitor to a Mac, I > would greatly appreciate the help. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] Robert Borsuk rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations http://www.colourfull.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 23 10:25:42 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia Message-ID: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Hi, Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? (Also note, this is a "trick" question). Have fun. It'll be interesting to see the answers! :-) TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 23 10:35:20 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:35:20 -0500 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> On 2/23/11 11:25 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send > the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). > > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > > (Also note, this is a "trick" question). > > Have fun. It'll be interesting to see the answers! :-) With or without filesystem overhead on the HDD? If with, using what filesystem? And what size of allocation unit? For some "real" definition of TB, or some marketing garbage like TiB or whatever? For that matter, what make and model of drive? Or for a different approach...how high do you want to stack them? ;) You're a sicko for starting this. ;) *poke* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Wed Feb 23 10:38:42 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:38:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <578400.29138.qm@web83915.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The possible pedantics are endless! ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 10:35:20 AM Subject: Re: Bit of DEC Trivia On 2/23/11 11:25 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send > the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). > > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > > (Also note, this is a "trick" question). > > Have fun. It'll be interesting to see the answers! :-) With or without filesystem overhead on the HDD? If with, using what filesystem? And what size of allocation unit? For some "real" definition of TB, or some marketing garbage like TiB or whatever? For that matter, what make and model of drive? Or for a different approach...how high do you want to stack them? ;) You're a sicko for starting this. ;) *poke* -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 23 10:43:14 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:43:14 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <68C0A794-B108-4CA2-9227-63EA723A15D6@shiresoft.com> On Feb 23, 2011, at 8:35 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On 2/23/11 11:25 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send >> the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). >> >> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? >> >> (Also note, this is a "trick" question). >> >> Have fun. It'll be interesting to see the answers! :-) > > With or without filesystem overhead on the HDD? If with, using what filesystem? And what size of allocation unit? > > For some "real" definition of TB, or some marketing garbage like TiB or whatever? For that matter, what make and model of drive? > > Or for a different approach...how high do you want to stack them? ;) > > You're a sicko for starting this. ;) *poke* OK, remember that this *is* a trick question! You're over thinking this *a lot*! TTFN - Guy From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 10:52:02 2011 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 16:52:02 +0000 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On 23 February 2011 16:25, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). > > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > > (Also note, this is a "trick" question). > > Have fun. ?It'll be interesting to see the answers! ?:-) > > TTFN - Guy One? The rest might fall off. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 10:53:26 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:53:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <656260.31234.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note > I'll send the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). > > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > > (Also note, this is a "trick" question). Well, assuming that we're talking about the *data* archived from a DecTape as an image (and not, for example, photograph images of the DecTapes themselves...), then the following should be close: According to sources online, a DecTape can hold 144k of data on a PDP-10, using 18 bit words. Assuming here that they're going by the base 10 definition of "K", as most media manufacturers are want to do, then the following must be true: 144,000 * 18 = 2,592,000 bits. This of course, assumes, that the figure of 144k accounts for the error correcting nature of DecTape, and that the actual bit capacity of the spool would therefore be about double - but since only 144k 18bit words are usable from PDP-10, then that's all the data that needs to be stored to image the tape So, then we have to calculate the size of a 1TB hard disk. This, as we know, is once again using the base 10 definition of all units, (also known as HDD maker's "lying gigabytes"): 1TB = 1,000GB = 1,000,000MB = 1,000,000,000KB = 1,000,000,000,000bytes = 8,000,000,000,000 bits. So, 8,000,000,000,000 / 2,592,000 = 3086419.75ish So, I'm going to guess 3,086,419 DecTapes can be completely stored on a 1TB hard disk, assuming no file system. And quite a few more if hard disk manufacturers didn't blatently lie about the capacity of their products. -Ian From quapla at xs4all.nl Wed Feb 23 11:24:38 2011 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:24:38 +0100 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0ac1642293f04d50e6f0c2da2fcf99e7.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I guess a stack of 25 to 30. More than that makes it unstable and it will topple over. Ed > Hi, > > Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send the > answer later after seeing the "guesses"). > > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > > (Also note, this is a "trick" question). > > Have fun. It'll be interesting to see the answers! :-) > > TTFN - Guy > -- Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 11:39:14 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:39:14 -0600 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4D654642.90104@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Or for a different approach...how high do you want to stack them? ;) He said images, so you have to photograph them and print them out first. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 23 11:39:09 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:39:09 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D654642.90104@gmail.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <4D653748.2030002@neurotica.com> <4D654642.90104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <964E0DAD-3C01-4288-86EB-7D1916B5E42B@shiresoft.com> On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:39 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Or for a different approach...how high do you want to stack them? ;) > > He said images, so you have to photograph them and print them out first. > Ian's post on this was on the right track. TTFN - Guy From schoedel at kw.igs.net Wed Feb 23 11:40:01 2011 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:40:01 -0500 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? All of them? -- Kevin Schoedel VA3TCS From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Feb 23 11:46:18 2011 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:46:18 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:40 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote >> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > > All of them? YES! Finally someone got it! :-) DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. So the contents of all of the DEC Tapes ever manufactured would fit on a 1TB HDD (it's not even close so all of the issues that were brought up about file system, block size, etc are pretty much irrelevant). TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 23 11:54:37 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:54:37 -0800 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2011 at 7:25, Steven Hirsch wrote: > And, since there's clearly no further development for the "official" > CW software, it's hightly annoying that he has not offered source code > to permit others to pick up the baton. > > The technical documentation for the CW is a real mess and even after > about 5 read-throughs is just short of incomprehensible. That's strange--I've been with the CW since the first ISA model and found the card very easy to write for--much easier than, say, graphics hardware. My current version is a CW3--there wasn't anything that the CW4 would do that I can do with CW3, so I didn't bother. There are several examples of open-source code that demonstrate how the CW works. When Jens comes along with a CW with USB interface, I'll probably buy it. There are substantial differences between the way the various models structure their registers, but even so, it's not hard to write "C" code to work with either. In fact, if anyone cares, I'll volunteer my Microsoft "C" 16-bit code that runs under MS-DOS for basic access to anyone who'd like it. The rest of the process is understanding the nature of magnetic recording. In fact, you can roll your own Catweasel. Just grab a microcontroller with the capability of adding extra RAM (128K-512K) and use the "capture" timer mode to sample the data stream. Control is easy and the interface to a floppy drive is just as simple. Phil's product is interesting because it will handle MFM hard disks. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 23 11:59:42 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:59:42 -0500 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4D654B0E.7010407@neurotica.com> On 2/23/11 12:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? >> >> All of them? > > YES! Finally someone got it! :-) > > DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. So the contents of all of the DEC Tapes ever manufactured would fit on a 1TB HDD (it's not even close so all of the issues that were brought up about file system, block size, etc are pretty much irrelevant). ROFL!! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 12:03:57 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:03:57 -0500 Subject: Radius Pivot monitor help needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 10:05 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Has anyone ever worked with a Radius Pivot monitor? ?I'm trying to get one > hooked up to a Mac IIci or IIsi but I need drivers and an appropriate > video card. > > I'm pretty sure I have both but finding them at this point will be a major > pain. ?If anyone has the drivers handy, and can let me know what an > approproiate video card would be to interface the monitor to a Mac, I > would greatly appreciate the help. AFAIK, you'll probably need a Radius-brand video adapter that knows how to handle the pivot function. Here's a link to what looks like the IIsi version of the card - http://www.applefritter.com/node/4347 If anyone reading this thread has a cache of Radius materials, I'd like to hear about it too. I've had a Radius Fullpage display and card for a Mac SE for some time but ISTR the last time I tried to set it up, the firmware on the card was a couple of point-releases too old for the drivers that we found online. Essentially, long ago, when such things were used daily, my mother bought a used FPM and SE card and asked me to install them in her SE. Physical installation was easy, but we never could come up with a combination of software and firmware that worked. IIRC, the screen lit up, erased to all white or a half-tone pattern (possibly with a Radius logo) - all card-to-monitor activities - then blanked because there was nothing happening from the OS-to-card part of things, and the drivers we had either didn't recognize the card at all, or at best, threw an error about a firmware mismatch (I _think_ there may have been a mention of needing, say, 1.53 and the card was marked 1.51, but those numbers could be off by a bit). I looked around in the days before the web when everything was on ftp servers, and never came up with anything useful. Now, my hope is that someone, somewhere, archived all things Radius and I have a chance of coming up with some combination of bits that works. It's no emergency, but I would like to see this thing work at least once. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 23 12:09:22 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:09:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > When Jens comes along with a CW with USB interface, I'll probably buy > it. Is he working on one? Even as unhappy as I was with the the Zorro Catweasel I bought, I'd consider that. I also need to determine if my Zorro Catweasel includes the IDE interface. The following product he has now looks most interesting. http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/trueide_e.htm Hopefully in the next year or so I can get my Amiga 3000 up and running again. The big project my wife and I have planned for this spring is to clean up the garage, and get things under control. Part of that will be determining what hardware out there is no longer functional. Zane From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 12:37:57 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:37:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Feb 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 23 Feb 2011 at 7:25, Steven Hirsch wrote: > > >> And, since there's clearly no further development for the "official" >> CW software, it's hightly annoying that he has not offered source code >> to permit others to pick up the baton. >> >> The technical documentation for the CW is a real mess and even after >> about 5 read-throughs is just short of incomprehensible. > > That's strange--I've been with the CW since the first ISA model and > found the card very easy to write for--much easier than, say, > graphics hardware. My current version is a CW3--there wasn't > anything that the CW4 would do that I can do with CW3, so I didn't > bother. I was unable to figure how to even initialize the card. Took a bit headscratching before I realized that it required a firmware load! Unless I just plain missed it, this little fact is simply not mentioned in the header file that passes as documentation. There some other basic issues that fell into "..well, you're just supposed to know that" category. Can't recall the details now, but I never tried again. Oh, one missing item: Theory of operation. That's a rather major "supposed to know". > There are several examples of open-source code that demonstrate how > the CW works. Perhaps worth doing, but I've got such a bad taste in my mouth from CW that I think I'll focus my efforts on Philip Pemberton's device. Steve -- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 23 13:05:58 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:05:58 -0800 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Feb 2011 at 10:09, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Is he working on one? Even as unhappy as I was with the the Zorro > Catweasel I bought, I'd consider that. Probably not. The state of the art has advanced to the point where a universal floppy reader/writer is mostly a matter of software anyway, judging from the number of Chinese-origin floppy emulators based on ARM designs. Just a matter of some interface circuitry and a bit of RAM mostly. > I also need to determine if my Zorro Catweasel includes the IDE > interface. The following product he has now looks most interesting. > http://www.jschoenfeld.com/products/trueide_e.htm I don't exactly appreciate the idea behind this. I use CF-to-PATA adapers on several machines (my mail server uses a Microdrive in one) and have no problems booting or anything else--but they're running Linux or DOS. I assume that what Jens' little gadget does is to intercept the result from the IDENTIFY command and clears the "removable media" bit in the return packet (Word 0, bit 7). It might matter to Windoze systems and perhaps to a few picky BIOSes. But PATA's a dead duck. I'd like to see an SDHC-to-SATA adapter. --Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 23 13:07:29 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:07:29 -0500 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> >Guy Sotomayor wrote: >On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:40 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote: > > > >>On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote >> >> >>>Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? >>> >>> >>All of them? >> >> > >YES! Finally someone got it! :-) > >DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. So the contents of all of the DEC Tapes ever manufactured would fit on a 1TB HDD (it's not even close so all of the issues that were brought up about file system, block size, etc are pretty much irrelevant). > I have gone through 2 boxes of TU-58 tapes with about 200 tapes in each box plus other odd assorted tapes for a total of about 500 tapes in all. I know of a number of other sites which have used several thousand tapes. At one time, the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 780 used the TU58 media as distribution tapes. How many installations existed? If you are referring, in particular, to the TU-58 tape media, then it seems a bit unlikely that if I can personally be aware of between 3000 and 5000 TU-58 tape media, that my experience will not have been duplicated a few hundred times for a total of over a million TU-58 tapes. If you have exact shipping information on how many TU-58 tapes DEC ever sold and shipped, then I will agree to that limited number. Otherwise, for a quick estimate, I can probably stack 30 to 50 TU-58 tapes (in their plastic containers for better stability) on a 1 TB HDD. With a capacity of 512 blocks (of 512 bytes per block - or a normal HDD block size) for each TU-58 tape and approximately 1,000,000,000,000 divided by 512 bytes (or about 1,953,125,000 blocks) on a 1 TB HDD, my estimate would be close to 3,814,697 TU-58 tape images could fit on a raw 1 TB HDD when no additional information such as a file structure is used. RT-11 would be ideal in that case if used to access the information. If 465 files, each with exactly 2,147,483,648 bytes each holding 8192 TU-58 tape images each were allocated on a 1 TB HDD with additional room for a FAT32 file structure, that would hold 3,809,280 TU-58 tape images. RT-11 under Ersatz-11 could easily access each of the TU-58 tape images in that case without a separate file structure being required for each of the 2 GB files. This would be an actual solution that will work, aside from the practical problem if some sort of index system to keep track of the contents of the 3,809,280 TU-58 images. But then you did not say that it was necessary to keep the index system for the TU-58 tape images on the same 1 TB HDD. I believe that is a bit more than the 3,086,419 TU-58 tape images previously estimated. Jerome Fine From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 13:16:05 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:16:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > From: Jerome H. Fine > Subject: Re: Bit of DEC Trivia > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, February 23, 2011, 2:07 PM > >Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:40 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net > wrote: > > > > > >> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor > wrote > >>> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB > HDD? > >>> > >> All of them? > >> > > > > YES! Finally someone got it! :-) > > > > DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. > At one time, the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 780 used the TU58 > media > as distribution tapes. How many installations > existed? > Ah, but you're forgetting. TU58's aren't true DECTapes. The TU-58 (DECTape II) is really more of a modified DC150 format - the true DECTapes are little round reels. They were used on PDP8 and PDP12 machines primarily. -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 23 13:16:10 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:16:10 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <4D655CFA.2000505@bitsavers.org> On 2/23/11 11:07 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > If you are referring, in particular, to the TU-58 tape media He is not Media for TU-58s were called "DECTape II" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 12:49:01 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:49:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: from "John A. Dundas III" at Feb 22, 11 01:05:36 pm Message-ID: > A later revision (-002) of that manual updates the Figure 1-6 on page > I/1-9 and explicitly labels the heads upper (1) and lower (0) while > retaining the text throughout that refers to them as the opposite of > that. Interesting and confusing! > > I guess you'll have to measure to find out. I wonder if the heads were originally refered to as the 'up' and 'down' head. That would have been conventional at one time and refers to the direction that the heads face. So the 'up' head is the lower one, the 'down# haed is the upper one. If this got edited by somebody unfamiliar with the terms, the 'up' head may well have become the 'upper' head, hence the confusion -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 12:56:29 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Books available in Santa Cruz, CA In-Reply-To: <4D645825.6080704@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 23, 11 00:43:17 am Message-ID: > DAMN. Wish I was nearby, I'd take just about the entire contents of that > bookcase! As would I :-) > > You can never have too many databooks -- invariably the datasheet you > need is in the one you don't have! Agreed on both counts. I've got shelves of databooks going back many years (I think the oldest data sheets I have as originals are from 1939. But yes, there are plenty I don't have. Services like http://www.datasheetarchive/ are very useful, and I use said site a lot, but I still much prefer the real paper databook... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 23 13:02:02 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:02:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D649A5F.3020005@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Feb 22, 11 09:25:51 pm Message-ID: > > Try connectin the PCB alone to the VT220. If it passes, try it on the > > microvax too. If will at least let yoy know if the latter is likely to > > work with a good keybaord. > > I just got done trying this. No dice, with the membrane disconnected 3 > of the LEDs light up constantly and that's it (no beeps or anything You did remove the metal clips from the PCB and not just pull out the membran tails I trust. If you do the latter, said clips short all the pads togther and cause all sorts of problems. I _+think_ (but I would have to find th scheamtics) that the LED signals are connected to normally unused pads on the membrane conenctors. If you have left the xclips on, this might explain why the LEDs are misbehaving. > else). With the membrane connected I get 4 LEDs and a few very short > (shorter than I recall under normal circumstances) beeps. So perhaps > the membrane isn't to blame in this case. Thsi, AFAIK, makes no sense. A correctly working membrane assembly is open-circuit between all conenctions. So the cotnroller PCB can't tell whether it's connected or not. -tony From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 13:32:26 2011 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:32:26 -0500 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 14:05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But PATA's a dead duck. ?I'd like to see an SDHC-to-SATA adapter. > > --Chuck Can be found at various crapgadget outlets these days, for example http://www.dealextreme.com/p/sdhc-sd-card-to-sata-solid-state-hard-drive-22597 They tend to be slow though. I was considering one of those as a SSD for a netbook, but I've heard people seeing neither speed nor battery life improvement compared to spinning platters. Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 23 14:33:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:33:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> Message-ID: <20110223123307.C51313@shell.lmi.net> > Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? ONE. Any more would require alteration of the filesystem. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Feb 23 14:45:39 2011 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:45:39 -0500 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D655CFA.2000505@bitsavers.org> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> <4D655CFA.2000505@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4D6571F3.50603@compsys.to> >Al Kossow wrote: > >On 2/23/11 11:07 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> If you are referring, in particular, to the TU-58 tape media > > He is not > Media for TU-58s were called "DECTape II" Yes - you are correct. I just looked again at one of the old tapes that no longer functions. That "II" is INDEED there. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 23 14:54:47 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 20:54:47 +0000 Subject: WTD: 28C16 EEPROM in PLCC package Message-ID: <4D657417.6090405@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, Seems the EEPROM which stores the MAC address in my HP 16500B logic analyser has developed amnesia. That is to say, it forgets everything a few days after being programmed, and as of today it won't even program correctly. Does anyone have a spare PLCC-packaged 28C16 EEPROM or two knocking about? Ideally I'd like another of the original part, a Samsung KM28C16J-20, which is specced for 200ns. A Catalyst/ONsemi CAT28C16 or any of the many variants should also suffice... My local supplier lists these as "special order only" -- with a ?16+VAT charge to do so, a monstrous minimum order (something like 100 units) and a three week factory lead time. I need maybe three of these at most... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 14:49:10 2011 From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:49:10 -0300 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com><20110223173752.M23290@kw.igs.net> <20110223123307.C51313@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: >> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? > ONE. > Any more would require alteration of the filesystem. I'd love to laugh :) Can you explain the joke? :) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Feb 23 15:06:13 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 15:06:13 -0600 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <201102232108.p1NL8Lgn037486@billY.EZWIND.NET> As my contribution to the discussion, I would suggest that not all of the real-world tapes were full of data. - John From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 23 16:09:28 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:09:28 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <656260.31234.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <656260.31234.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Ian Primus Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 8:53 AM > According to sources online, a DecTape can hold 144k of data on a PDP-10, > using 18 bit words. Assuming here that they're going by the base 10 > definition of "K", as most media manufacturers are want to do, then the > following must be true: "144K" is misleading for anything other than a PDP-11. Nobody else does things in bytes, and even on -11's DECtape use is thought of in words. DECtape as used on the PDP-10 (and earlier the PDP-6) stores 578 blocks of 128 36-bit words. DECtape as used on the PDP-4/7/9/15 stores 578 blocks of 256 18-bit words; on the PDP-11, the same format stores 256 16-bit words per block, with hard zeroes in the high-order bits. On the PDP-5, PDP-8 family, and PDP-12 in PDP-8 mode, DECtape stores 1474 blocks of 129 12-bit words (with 1 word unused in some operating systems). 129 12-bit words maps to 86 18-bit words, and the overhead frames (10 per block, 5 on each end) are identical between 12- and 18-bit formats. > 144,000 * 18 = 2,592,000 bits. 578 * 128 * 36 = 2,663,424 data bits, so you're close. 1474 * 129 * 12 = 2,281,752 data bits, so your figure is in the middle. > This of course, assumes, that the figure of 144k accounts for the error > correcting nature of DecTape, and that the actual bit capacity of the > spool would therefore be about double - but since only 144k 18bit words > are usable from PDP-10, then that's all the data that needs to be stored > to image the tape DECtape is not an "error correcting" medium. It is highly resistant to data loss, which is not the same thing. Each frame of the tape contains 10 bits, laid out as T M 1 2 3 1' 2' 3' M' T' T is the timing track. M is the Mark track, which runs linearly and defines the contents of each 6 frames by unique codes which were chosen because they are complement-obverse pairs (that is, they read the same forwards and backwards). 18 bits of data is written in 6 frames. The head assignments marked with primes record the same data as the corresponding unmarked heads, so 3 bits of data per frame. The 10 overhead frames per block contribute 34,680 more bits to 18-bit format tapes, and 88,440 to 12-bit format tapes. Then there are the "landing zones", stretches of tape before block 0 and after block MAX, of a couple of thousand (I'm not going to go look up the exact number) frames to account for the mechanics of tape, and the several thousand frames marked as unusuable so that the controller can find the front end zone to get started looking for data. > So, then we have to calculate the size of a 1TB hard disk. This, as we > know, is once again using the base 10 definition of all units, (also > known as HDD maker's "lying gigabytes"): > 1TB = 1,000GB = 1,000,000MB = 1,000,000,000KB = 1,000,000,000,000bytes = > 8,000,000,000,000 bits. > So, 8,000,000,000,000 / 2,592,000 = 3086419.75ish > So, I'm going to guess 3,086,419 DecTapes can be completely stored on a > 1TB hard disk, assuming no file system. And quite a few more if hard disk > manufacturers didn't blatently lie about the capacity of their products. I already knew the answer to Guy's riddle (someone made the same joke a few months ago on one of the relevant Usenet newsgroups), but I'd not worked out the actual numbers. Thanks for doing the work. $DEITY, I know too much about the internals of DECtape! Forensics, you know? Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 23 16:19:17 2011 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:19:17 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Mr Ian Primus Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 11:16 AM > --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> From: Jerome H. Fine >> Subject: Re: Bit of DEC Trivia >>> Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:40 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net >>> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor >>>> wrote >>>>> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? >>>> All of them? >>> YES! Finally someone got it! :-) >>> DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. >> At one time, the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 780 used the TU58 media as >> distribution tapes. How many installations existed? > Ah, but you're forgetting. TU58's aren't true DECTapes. The TU-58 (DECTape > II) is really more of a modified DC150 format - the true DECTapes are > little round reels. They were used on PDP8 and PDP12 machines primarily. DECtapes (originally called "Microtapes") were invented for the PDP-4, and were used on the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-6, PDP-7, PDP-8 family, PDP-9, PDP-10, PDP-11 family, and PDP-15. They were also used on Data General systems, and the alternate format (wrapped the opposite direction around the reel) called LINCtape was used on LINC, LINC-8, and PDP-12 systems. There were three drives, the 555, the TU-55, and the TU-56; the latter two were used on 12-, 16-, 18- and 36-bit systems. Until the advent of the floppy disk, DECtape/LINCtape was common on a lot of minicomputers, and even on mainframes. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 23 21:31:54 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 03:31:54 +0000 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> On 23/02/11 12:25, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Knowning Philip's > penchant for throroughness, I have no doubt that the documentation > quality will be good and the API understandable and usable. You're welcome to take a look at the current version of the C API, though I warn you: it is mostly register POKEs and PEEKs: http://hg.discferret.com/C-API/file/acbaa0cfaf5e/include/discferret/discferret.h The whole thing uses Doxygen comments, so you can just run Doxygen over the API source code and get a full set of documentation. That and the test apps in /firmware/test/ should give you some idea what you need to do. It really boils down to setting a few acquisition parameters, then flipping the GO bit to '1' and waiting for the RUNNING status bit to go to '1', then back to '0'. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 23 21:39:59 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 03:39:59 +0000 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4D65D30F.7090307@philpem.me.uk> On 23/02/11 19:05, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't exactly appreciate the idea behind this. I use CF-to-PATA > adapers on several machines (my mail server uses a Microdrive in one) > and have no problems booting or anything else--but they're running > Linux or DOS. I've got a CF card inside my HP logic analyser (which is currently very ill and needs a PLCC32-packaged 28C16 EEPROM to fix the Ethernet card). Got sick of the 540MB Quantum Fireball whining -- that thing has had bearing whine for ages. Swapping it for a CF hasn't brought the noise level down by much though -- those 120mm Papst metal-rotor fans make a hell of a lot of noise... > But PATA's a dead duck. I'd like to see an SDHC-to-SATA adapter. Theoretically doable -- either implement a complete SATA MAC on an FPGA (and use an external PHY, though those are pretty rare), or implement PATA on an FPGA (very easy) and use one of ROHM's SATA-to-PATA bridge chips. I wanted to do an SDHC-to-PATA interface, or maybe an IDE, SDHC or CompactFlash-to-SCSI interface. The SCSI ones are pretty appealing, I'm currently "discussing" the purchase of a HP 16700A logic analyser (the PA-RISC based thing that runs HP-UX and uses an external VGA display). Those things boot off of a SCSI hard drive -- which are starting to become hard to find... Well, at least if you want *working* SCSI drives anyway... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 23 22:15:16 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 20:15:16 -0800 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D65D30F.7090307@philpem.me.uk> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com>, <4D65D30F.7090307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D656AD4.24745.2631B3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2011 at 3:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > I've got a CF card inside my HP logic analyser (which is currently > very ill and needs a PLCC32-packaged 28C16 EEPROM to fix the Ethernet > card). Got sick of the 540MB Quantum Fireball whining -- that thing > has had bearing whine for ages. Swapping it for a CF hasn't brought > the noise level down by much though -- those 120mm Papst metal-rotor > fans make a hell of a lot of noise... But they keep things ventilated... There's a US seller on eBay offering a Microchip 28C16A in PLCC32. Maybe the LittleDiode guy in the UK might have one stashed away. I hadn't realized how difficult these were to locate. --Chuck From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Feb 23 23:42:31 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 21:42:31 -0800 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D656AD4.24745.2631B3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2/23/11 8:15 PM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 24 Feb 2011 at 3:39, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > >> I've got a CF card inside my HP logic analyser (which is currently >> very ill and needs a PLCC32-packaged 28C16 EEPROM to fix the Ethernet >> card). Got sick of the 540MB Quantum Fireball whining -- that thing >> has had bearing whine for ages. Swapping it for a CF hasn't brought >> the noise level down by much though -- those 120mm Papst metal-rotor >> fans make a hell of a lot of noise... > > But they keep things ventilated... > > There's a US seller on eBay offering a Microchip 28C16A in PLCC32. > Maybe the LittleDiode guy in the UK might have one stashed away. > > I hadn't realized how difficult these were to locate. > > --Chuck > > Theres someone on ebay offering the atmel 28c16 plcc for 4.95 each. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Feb 24 01:24:49 2011 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:24:49 +0100 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D65D30F.7090307@philpem.me.uk> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D64D95D.28571.2AE090@cclist.sydex.com> <4D64EA16.20108.6C3460@cclist.sydex.com> <4D65D30F.7090307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20110224082449.0a034846.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 24 Feb 2011 03:39:59 +0000 Philip Pemberton wrote: > > But PATA's a dead duck. I'd like to see an SDHC-to-SATA adapter. > Theoretically doable It already exists: http://www.dealextreme.com/p/sdhc-sd-card-to-sata-solid-state-hard-drive-22597 Acard makes various SCSI to SATA bridges, though expensive: http://www.acard.com/english/fb0101.jsp?type1_title=SCSIDE%20II%20Bridge&type1_idno=11 -- \end{Jochen} \ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/} From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 24 01:39:17 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:39:17 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: I did not realize the DECtape/Minitape format was used by Data General. Might you have model/part numbers? I'd like to know more about that. Thanks -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson [RichA at vulcan.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 2:19 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bit of DEC Trivia From: Mr Ian Primus Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 11:16 AM > --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> From: Jerome H. Fine >> Subject: Re: Bit of DEC Trivia >>> Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:40 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net >>> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor >>>> wrote >>>>> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? >>>> All of them? >>> YES! Finally someone got it! :-) >>> DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. >> At one time, the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 780 used the TU58 media as >> distribution tapes. How many installations existed? > Ah, but you're forgetting. TU58's aren't true DECTapes. The TU-58 (DECTape > II) is really more of a modified DC150 format - the true DECTapes are > little round reels. They were used on PDP8 and PDP12 machines primarily. DECtapes (originally called "Microtapes") were invented for the PDP-4, and were used on the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-6, PDP-7, PDP-8 family, PDP-9, PDP-10, PDP-11 family, and PDP-15. They were also used on Data General systems, and the alternate format (wrapped the opposite direction around the reel) called LINCtape was used on LINC, LINC-8, and PDP-12 systems. There were three drives, the 555, the TU-55, and the TU-56; the latter two were used on 12-, 16-, 18- and 36-bit systems. Until the advent of the floppy disk, DECtape/LINCtape was common on a lot of minicomputers, and even on mainframes. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 01:47:10 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:47:10 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to> <438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D660CFE.5030506@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > DECtapes (originally called "Microtapes") were invented for the PDP-4, Really? Do you have a citation? All of the information I've seen is that LINCtape was invented for the LINC, and modified into Microtape/DECtape by DEC for their machines, so I wouldn't think one could really say that it was invented for the PDP-4. I suppose one could say that the relatively minor differences between LINCtape and Microtape/DECtape (mostly to support reverse transfers) were invented for the PDP-4, if that was in fact the first DEC machine to use it, and I'm not entirely convinced of that. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Feb 24 01:51:29 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 23:51:29 -0800 Subject: WTD: 28C16 EEPROM in PLCC package In-Reply-To: <4D657417.6090405@philpem.me.uk> References: <4D657417.6090405@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D660E01.9030201@brouhaha.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Does anyone have a spare PLCC-packaged 28C16 EEPROM or two knocking about? > Ideally I'd like another of the original part, a Samsung KM28C16J-20, which is > specced for 200ns. A Catalyst/ONsemi CAT28C16 or any of the many variants > should also suffice... Mouser has 268 pieces of the ON CAT28C16AG20 in stock for $5.46 in quantity one. Mouser's part number is 698-CAT28C16AG-20. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Feb 23 11:01:30 2011 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:01:30 -0000 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0B51FFFF4CB2400AB5F583EF89743E80@xp32vm> A non-trick answer is probably every distinct one that ever was recorded (with some space to spare) . capacity is some 3 million odd without compression. Andy _____ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor Sent: 23 February 2011 16:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia Hi, Found this out and thought I'd share it with the list (note I'll send the answer later after seeing the "guesses"). Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? (Also note, this is a "trick" question). Have fun. It'll be interesting to see the answers! :-) TTFN - Guy= _____ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3462 - Release Date: 02/23/11 From pinball at telus.net Wed Feb 23 11:45:27 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:45:27 -0800 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6547B7.90202@telus.net> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Forgot the URL for the SCSI to IDE/SD project > > > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder > > ¶m=SCSI2IDE > > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > Hi Andrew, That link is a bit broken... This project would be nice for my Fluke 9100s I suspect. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From pinball at telus.net Wed Feb 23 14:01:11 2011 From: pinball at telus.net (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 12:01:11 -0800 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <4D6547B7.90202@telus.net> References: <4D6547B7.90202@telus.net> Message-ID: <4D656787.9050109@telus.net> John Robertson wrote: > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Forgot the URL for the SCSI to IDE/SD project >> >> >> >> http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder >> >> ¶m=SCSI2IDE >> >> >> >> Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch >> >> >> > Hi Andrew, > > That link is a bit broken... > > This project would be nice for my Fluke 9100s I suspect. > > John :-#)# > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=SCSI%20to%20IDE-SD This link works properly... John :-#)# From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 19:20:31 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 17:20:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Egads! Message-ID: <555444.59033.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/INTEL-P4040-D4040-C4040-PROLOG-MICROPROCESSOR-BOARD-/300527828879?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f8dabf8f From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 22:17:15 2011 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 20:17:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Radius Pivot monitor help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <441289.10006.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's no emergency, but I would like to see this thing work > at least once. > > -ethan I'm not claiming to come to the rescue here, but what are the particulars of the monitor? Many mac monitors operate on a fixed frequency, typically ~64 khz. If it's color especially, I can't imagine it not working w/ most any high resolution card (I've seen many on eBay this week). My old IIcx has a card (the name and man. escapes me - Futura? Not sure if it was Radius or Emachines) that has the ability to dial up probably a dozen different frequencies. My original Mac II also had a bizarro b&w monitor. Can't remember if it had a dedicated card (I think it must have). Had considerable screen burn, but was still as sharp as a tack! Love those old monsters. Heh heh. I've been looking for a b&w "2 page" monitor for some time (actually I found a good sized HP unit which would have run on an early 90s UX box). If you ever get tired of waiting for the right setup... From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Feb 24 02:36:37 2011 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 09:36:37 +0100 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <656260.31234.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110224083637.GA13996@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 02:09:28PM -0800, Rich Alderson wrote: > > 144,000 * 18 = 2,592,000 bits. > > 578 * 128 * 36 = 2,663,424 data bits, so you're close. > 1474 * 129 * 12 = 2,281,752 data bits, so your figure is in the middle. Also, I've been told that you could "compact" the tape by breaking the reel with your finger while formatting (writing timing and mark tracks). I'm guessing that electromechanical differences between drives would influence the actual speed of the reel and therefore the usable size of the tape. Regards, Pontus From hachti at hachti.de Thu Feb 24 04:58:40 2011 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:58:40 +0100 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <20110224083637.GA13996@Update.UU.SE> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <656260.31234.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110224083637.GA13996@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4D6639E0.6000102@hachti.de> Hi, > Also, I've been told that you could "compact" the tape by breaking the > reel with your finger while formatting (writing timing and mark tracks). > I'm guessing that electromechanical differences between drives would > influence the actual speed of the reel and therefore the usable size of > the tape. The reel speed is determined by a 40Hz timing circuit in the drive. The motors run with synthesized AC. The timer is adjustable. For me it sounds quite more interesting to format a tape on a normal drive - and then use it on a drive which has been adjusted to spin faster... :-) Regards, Philipp From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 06:56:42 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 07:56:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 23/02/11 12:25, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Knowning Philip's >> penchant for throroughness, I have no doubt that the documentation >> quality will be good and the API understandable and usable. > > You're welcome to take a look at the current version of the C API, though I > warn you: it is mostly register POKEs and PEEKs: > > http://hg.discferret.com/C-API/file/acbaa0cfaf5e/include/discferret/discferret.h > > The whole thing uses Doxygen comments, so you can just run Doxygen over the > API source code and get a full set of documentation. That and the test apps > in /firmware/test/ should give you some idea what you need to do. It really > boils down to setting a few acquisition parameters, then flipping the GO bit > to '1' and waiting for the RUNNING status bit to go to '1', then back to '0'. The acquisition is raw flux transitions, correct? Do you have any examples of how to decode into the original sector-by-sector data? Or, have you not reached that point in development as of yet? Steve -- From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 24 07:32:23 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:32:23 +0000 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D665DE7.4020208@philpem.me.uk> On 24/02/11 12:56, Steven Hirsch wrote: > The acquisition is raw flux transitions, correct? Almost -- it's actually the timing between the flux transitions. > Do you have any > examples of how to decode into the original sector-by-sector data? If memory serves, there are a few in the /firmware/test source code repository. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 24 10:27:33 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 08:27:33 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D6639E0.6000102@hachti.de> References: <9300D219-169C-4556-A207-E7F8E43BC231@shiresoft.com> <656260.31234.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <20110224083637.GA13996@Update.UU.SE> <4D6639E0.6000102@hachti.de> Message-ID: <4D6686F5.2000600@bitsavers.org> On 2/24/11 2:58 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > For me it sounds quite more interesting to format a tape on a normal drive - and then use it on a drive which has been adjusted to spin faster... :-) > It shouldn't matter over the range that the G888A can decode it. DECtape uses Manchester encoding, so it is self-clocking. Head skew relative to the timing tracks becomes more of an issue, but even that was mitigated by putting redundant tracks on different parts of the tape and or-ing the heads together. The trick with holding your thumb on the reel became necessary when DEC started shipping less tape on the reel than certain PDP-8 operating systems expected. G888's are odd beasts. They expect the head amplifier to oscillate when the tape isn't moving. That is needed for the up to speed circuit to work in the TC-11 (and probably in the TC-08) A while back, I added some background information on the Wikipedia entry for DECtape, going back to the Raytheon tape drives used on Whirlwind. The direct ancestor to LINCtape was the TX-2 high speed tape system designed by Tom Stockebrand. DEC patented the encoding used on DECtape, so the earlier LINC Tape was copied by a couple of other companies, in particular Computer Operations, Inc. in Beltsville, MD and sold interfaces for DEC, HP, and DG. Sept, 69 Datamation: minicomputer tape deck The C0600 LINC Tape System, a minitape system for minicomputers, was named in deference to the MIT computer project called LINC which first defined a need for such a peripheral. The C0600 consists of two tape drives, each with 150 feet of ~4 inch tape, which hooks up with a mini-cpu. Each reel of tape is capable of storing over 100,000 16-bit words in blocks of 256. The data transfer rate for the device is roughly 4.2KC, and the time required for a pass of a full tape is listed as 27 sec. The system approximates a random access storage device. It is not used as a standard tape deck, but more as a disc. The 256-word blocks are given permanent, pre-recorded numbers. The numbers are used to retrieve the 256-word data elements as though they were recorded on addressable disc tracks. Each block is given a checksum, and tape searching may be done moving the tape forward or backward. Two models are available, an "A" model which uses an I/O channel of a Varian 620/i and costs $9,950, and a "B" model which uses 620/i direct memory access, transfers through a double buffer on a cycle stealing interrupt basis, and costs $10,500. Software issued includes utilities, a loader, assembler, FORTRAN with math and I/O routines, and bootstrap. Although the Varian-compatible version is ready, models for the Honeywell 516 and 316 and the General Automation SPC 12 are expected. COMPUTER OPERATONS, INC., Silver Spring, Md. The photo in the announcement looks identical to the drives on the LINC There is a later single transport version which is shorter and the tape path is "S" shaped. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 24 11:37:23 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 11:37:23 -0600 Subject: Identify core board? Message-ID: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> I recently acquired: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320652132954&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123 but I don't know enough about 70s minis to recognize which sort of system it came from... - John From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 12:01:09 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:01:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D665DE7.4020208@philpem.me.uk> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> <4D665DE7.4020208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 24/02/11 12:56, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> The acquisition is raw flux transitions, correct? > > Almost -- it's actually the timing between the flux transitions. - Yes, that's what I meant. :-) >> Do you have any >> examples of how to decode into the original sector-by-sector data? > > If memory serves, there are a few in the /firmware/test source code > repository. I will look into it. Thinking out loud: I wonder if the data format is compatible with any of the open-source Catweasel code, or could be converted in such a manner. BTW, an 8" diskette written in M2FM (for Intellec Isis) and two SD N* 10-sector diskettes are on their way to you. Steve -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Feb 24 12:25:54 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 10:25:54 -0800 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <78bb32baee2c22be1524d061840f8094@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 24, at 9:37 AM, John Foust wrote: > > I recently acquired: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll? > ViewItem&item=320652132954&ssPageName=ADME:L:OU:US:1123 > > but I don't know enough about 70s minis to recognize which > sort of system it came from... Looks like there are 12 bit-arrays, perhaps it was for a PDP-8. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 24 12:40:11 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 12:40:11 -0600 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <78bb32baee2c22be1524d061840f8094@cs.ubc.ca> References: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <78bb32baee2c22be1524d061840f8094@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <201102241840.p1OIeNd6081343@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 12:25 PM 2/24/2011, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Looks like there are 12 bit-arrays, perhaps it was for a PDP-8. Does a PDP-8 edge connector look like that? Blue metal? It looks like this is two boards of what was a three-board sandwich. The top one probably went to the melt, judging by the seller's ID. - John From jdr_use at bluewin.ch Thu Feb 24 14:24:01 2011 From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:24:01 +0100 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> And another strange core memory board...... Ebay 180628933361 I suspect that it is some sort of rom, but if anyone has a better explanation I would be interested. Jos From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 24 14:44:20 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 20:44:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Egads! In-Reply-To: <555444.59033.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Feb 22, 11 05:20:31 pm Message-ID: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/INTEL-P4040-D4040-C4040-PROLOG-MICROPROCESSOR-BOARD-/300527828879?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f8dabf8f What is so odd about that? It seems to be just a normal 4040-based controller board. The 4002s are the special RAMs for this processor, the 4289 is an interface from the strange 4040 bus to conventional memory devices, presumably to link up the 1702 EPROMs. -tony From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Thu Feb 24 10:33:35 2011 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 09:33:35 -0700 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia References: <4D655AF1.8000709@compsys.to><438341.11253.qm@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: <01a701cbd440$96652e80$6801a8c0@linksys> To clarify, Data General did not use/supply DECtape/Linc Tape drives, rather the company Computer Operations, Inc. in Beltsville Maryland supplied "Linc Tape" drives and software for Data General systems in the 1970s (starting in 1971). The drives were initially the standard side-by-side DECtape format, and l. The "alternate format (wrapped the opposite direction around the reel)" drive format that Rich referred to was introduced later in that decade by Computer Operations for the DG systems. COI also created a minimalist LincTape Operating System (LTOS) for DG along with a tape driver library. The National Weather Service (NWS) and some military systems used these systems with Novas in the 1970s, and at least one electronics manufacturing plant in Mexico used Nova 2s with COI LincTape drives through 2001(!). Bruce Ray ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ian King" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 12:39 AM Subject: RE: Bit of DEC Trivia I did not realize the DECtape/Minitape format was used by Data General. Might you have model/part numbers? I'd like to know more about that. Thanks -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson [RichA at vulcan.com] Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 2:19 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Bit of DEC Trivia From: Mr Ian Primus Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2011 11:16 AM > --- On Wed, 2/23/11, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> From: Jerome H. Fine >> Subject: Re: Bit of DEC Trivia >>> Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> On Feb 23, 2011, at 9:40 AM, schoedel at kw.igs.net >>> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2011 08:25:42 -0800, Guy Sotomayor >>>> wrote >>>>> Q: How many DECTapes (images) can fit on a 1TB HDD? >>>> All of them? >>> YES! Finally someone got it! :-) >>> DEC never shipped millions of DEC Tapes. >> At one time, the PDP-11/44 and the VAX 780 used the TU58 media as >> distribution tapes. How many installations existed? > Ah, but you're forgetting. TU58's aren't true DECTapes. The TU-58 (DECTape > II) is really more of a modified DC150 format - the true DECTapes are > little round reels. They were used on PDP8 and PDP12 machines primarily. DECtapes (originally called "Microtapes") were invented for the PDP-4, and were used on the PDP-4, PDP-5, PDP-6, PDP-7, PDP-8 family, PDP-9, PDP-10, PDP-11 family, and PDP-15. They were also used on Data General systems, and the alternate format (wrapped the opposite direction around the reel) called LINCtape was used on LINC, LINC-8, and PDP-12 systems. There were three drives, the 555, the TU-55, and the TU-56; the latter two were used on 12-, 16-, 18- and 36-bit systems. Until the advent of the floppy disk, DECtape/LINCtape was common on a lot of minicomputers, and even on mainframes. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/= From lee_courtney at acm.org Thu Feb 24 11:02:18 2011 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 09:02:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: Historical Mainframe Security Docs Available Message-ID: <67470.79685.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi all, I'm cleaning out my library and have the following set of IBM mainframe security documentation free for 20lbs shipping from 94025. Sorry, all or nothing - I only want to make one trip to ship these. These manuals cover the period from early to late-1980s. They go to the first person to accept the lot. Will get recycled if not claimed by 2/2. Have already offered to Bitsavers, and have scanned in case Al wants later. Lee Courtney lee_courtney at acm.org Auditing Top Secret Overview MVS Secured using CA-ACF2 RACF Overview MAJOR COMPONENTS OF AN ACF2-PROTECTED SYSTEM ACF2 Training Class Access Control Facility Auditor's Guide Access Control Facility IMPLEMENTATION PLANNING GUIDE The Access Control Facility General Information Manual The Access Control Facility Overview Access Control Facility UTILITIES MANUAL ACF2 Composite Index ACF2 Release 4 Enhancement Summary The Access Control Facility Administrators Guide VM Secure Users Guide VM CMS User Guide and Reference Manual VMSECURE Quick Reference ACF2 Reporting System Reference Card CA-ACF2 Audit Overview What About VM Security VM Software Fee Schedule VM Software Newsletter AUTOMATING THE AUDIT OF RACF PROFILES CONSUL Mainframe Security Overview CONSUL RACF Sample Output CONSUL RACF User Reference Manual BoKS Administration BoKs Release Notes and Getting Started Guide From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Thu Feb 24 13:57:42 2011 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:57:42 -0000 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> References: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <35220CFD495B45E8B55742D8FC96A5AB@xp32vm> >>>>> I recently acquired: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320652132954&ssPageName=A DME:L:OU:US:1123 but I don't know enough about 70s minis to recognize which sort of system it came from... <<<<< Interesting. 16-bit planes (no parity). Yet by mid 1976 (from date on driver chips) most minis would be using semiconductor memory - reliable versions of dynamic RAM had been out for 5 years. I'd think military or other high reliability, but then where is the parity? Andy From bqt at softjar.se Thu Feb 24 14:14:50 2011 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:14:50 +0100 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D66BC3A.9010704@softjar.se> On 02/24/11 19:00, Al Kossow wrote: > On 2/24/11 2:58 AM, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: >> > For me it sounds quite more interesting to format a tape on a normal drive - and then use it on a drive which has been adjusted to spin faster...:-) >> > > It shouldn't matter over the range that the G888A can decode it. DECtape uses Manchester encoding, so it is self-clocking. Yes, but you need the clock track in order to write. So, read is self-timed, and write is done with the help of the timing track. And yes, the speed of the motor will affect how fast data comes in/out, but only indirectly, since it's the clocking off the data from the tape that matters. Tricks to increase speed would be to run an already formatted tape faster or to format a tape at a slower speed. Formatting a tape at a slower speed will also make it possible to fit more data onto the tape (obviously). > Head skew relative to the timing tracks becomes more of an issue, but even that was mitigated by putting redundant tracks > on different parts of the tape and or-ing the heads together. I'm not sure how much head skew could happen. The data from the tape is read by just one head, with 10 tracks. So, the timing track is read at the same point as the data. You could possibly get some kind of skew if the signal was delayed through the electronics. > The trick with holding your thumb on the reel became necessary when DEC started shipping less tape on the reel than > certain PDP-8 operating systems expected. Yes... Johnny From shumaker at att.net Thu Feb 24 17:05:34 2011 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:05:34 -0800 Subject: Historical Mainframe Security Docs Available In-Reply-To: <67470.79685.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <67470.79685.qm@web35301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D66E43E.5010501@att.net> Lee I'll let someone else jump in and claim the hardcopy docs... But a digital set?... . Any chance a copy of that would be available? Steve Shumaker On 2/24/2011 9:02 AM, Lee Courtney (ACM) wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm cleaning out my library and have the following set of IBM mainframe security > documentation free for 20lbs shipping from 94025. Sorry, all or nothing - I only > want to make one trip to ship these. These manuals cover the period from early > to late-1980s. > > They go to the first person to accept the lot. Will get recycled if not claimed > by 2/2. Have already offered to Bitsavers, and have scanned in case Al wants > later. > > Lee Courtney > lee_courtney at acm.org > > Auditing Top Secret Overview > MVS Secured using CA-ACF2 > RACF Overview > MAJOR COMPONENTS OF AN ACF2-PROTECTED SYSTEM > ACF2 Training Class > Access Control Facility Auditor's Guide > Access Control Facility IMPLEMENTATION PLANNING GUIDE > The Access Control Facility General Information Manual > The Access Control Facility Overview > Access Control Facility UTILITIES MANUAL > ACF2 Composite Index > ACF2 Release 4 Enhancement Summary > The Access Control Facility Administrators Guide > VM Secure Users Guide > VM CMS User Guide and Reference Manual > VMSECURE Quick Reference > ACF2 Reporting System Reference Card > CA-ACF2 Audit Overview > What About VM Security > VM Software Fee Schedule > VM Software Newsletter > AUTOMATING THE AUDIT OF RACF PROFILES > CONSUL Mainframe Security Overview > CONSUL RACF Sample Output > CONSUL RACF User Reference Manual > BoKS Administration > BoKs Release Notes and Getting Started Guide > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 24 17:27:14 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 15:27:14 -0800 Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D66BC3A.9010704@softjar.se> References: , <4D66BC3A.9010704@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4D6678D2.11031.1017889@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Feb 2011 at 21:14, Johnny Billquist wrote: > And yes, the speed of the motor will affect how fast data comes > in/out, but only indirectly, since it's the clocking off the data from > the tape that matters. Tricks to increase speed would be to run an > already formatted tape faster or to format a tape at a slower speed. I'd always assumed that the reason a relative shallow spool was used is because the tape is reel-driven, sans capstans to assure a more-or- less constant speed. Some sort of clocking mechanism (either with a clock track or by modulation methods) would seem to be a necessity. And it's also why you don't see 2400' DECtape reels... Cheap Japanese portable tape recorders of about the same time also used reel-drive; some even had rheostats to tweak the motor speed. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 24 18:18:48 2011 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 00:18:48 +0000 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> <4D665DE7.4020208@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D66F568.50301@philpem.me.uk> On 24/02/11 18:01, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I will look into it. Thinking out loud: I wonder if the data format is > compatible with any of the open-source Catweasel code, or could be > converted in such a manner. It could be, but you'd have to resample the data. Basically, it's one floating-point multiply operation per transition. CatweaselValue = DiscferretValue * (CatweaselClock / DiscferretClock) CatweaselClock -- Catweasel acquisition clock rate, in Hz DiscferretClock -- 100e6 (for the latest firmware) DiscferretValue -- timing value from the DiscFerret CatweaselValue -- equivalent value from a Catweasel You'll be throwing away a fair amount of timing resolution, and you need to be careful about timing overflows. Use the appropriate CatweaselClock value to get the most resolution without the value clipping to 127. If memory serves, the Catweasel starts counting from 0, in which case you'll need a -1 on the end of that. The DiscFerret uses a stored byte of '0' as a special value -- "the counter overflowed, add 127 to the next count value". It actually counts from 1, i.e. "there was a 10ns gap between the last two transitions". Bit 7 is still used for the state of the INDEX bit, though if the group wishes, a config bit could be added to use the entire 8 bits for timing data... > BTW, an 8" diskette written in M2FM (for Intellec Isis) and two SD N* > 10-sector diskettes are on their way to you. Thanks for that -- I'll take a look at them when they arrive. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 24 18:33:36 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 19:33:36 -0500 Subject: Egads! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D66F8E0.80908@neurotica.com> On 2/24/11 3:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/INTEL-P4040-D4040-C4040-PROLOG-MICROPROCESSOR-BOARD-/300527828879?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f8dabf8f > > What is so odd about that? It seems to be just a normal 4040-based > controller board. The 4002s are the special RAMs for this processor, the > 4289 is an interface from the strange 4040 bus to conventional memory > devices, presumably to link up the 1702 EPROMs. In my experience, 4040-based equipment is even rarer than 4004-based designs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 24 19:47:19 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 17:47:19 -0800 Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D66F568.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, , <4D66F568.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4D6699A7.987.181B5D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 25 Feb 2011 at 0:18, Philip Pemberton wrote: > You'll be throwing away a fair amount of timing resolution, and you > need to be careful about timing overflows. Use the appropriate > CatweaselClock value to get the most resolution without the value > clipping to 127. Floating-point isn't necessary, I think. The CW's sample count is a max of 127, which gives a quantization error of about 1%. Since ISV and other variations are larger than that for most disk drives. A fixed-point fractional multiply using 16 bits is more than sufficient. In fact, CW software must leave some headroom for speed variation, so the clock rate used is usually considerably lower than that needed for a full-range sample. In MFM disks, counts of 30, 45 and 60 (decimal) are fairly typical for the CW. > If memory serves, the Catweasel starts counting from 0, in which case > you'll need a -1 on the end of that. The DiscFerret uses a stored byte > of '0' as a special value -- "the counter overflowed, add 127 to the > next count value". It actually counts from 1, i.e. "there was a 10ns > gap between the last two transitions". Bit 7 is still used for the > state of the INDEX bit, though if the group wishes, a config bit could > be added to use the entire 8 bits for timing data... The Catweasel never records a 00 count. It's used by some software as an end-of-sample marker (by writing into the sample buffer) and, in some CW boards, a value of 128 is used to halt writing. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 24 20:21:45 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 20:21:45 -0600 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <35220CFD495B45E8B55742D8FC96A5AB@xp32vm> References: <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <35220CFD495B45E8B55742D8FC96A5AB@xp32vm> Message-ID: <201102250223.p1P2NB9v096655@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 01:57 PM 2/24/2011, Andy Holt wrote: >Interesting. 16-bit planes (no parity). Yet by mid 1976 (from date on driver >chips) most minis would be using semiconductor memory - reliable versions of >dynamic RAM had been out for 5 years. >I'd think military or other high reliability, but then where is the parity? Seller tells me it came from a "Lockheed or Raytheon - scrap back room". - John From drb at msu.edu Thu Feb 24 21:06:13 2011 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 22:06:13 -0500 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:24:01 +0100.) <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> References: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> Message-ID: <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I suspect that it is some sort of rom, but if anyone has a better > explanation I would be interested. It's marked as containing microcode. The seller describes "specially wound ceramic rods", so I'd guess it's conceptually similar to rope memory. Looks like this is one of at least two such units to make a full word, as the bit planes are numbered 16-31. Other markings on the cards suggest it's from a Siemens System 4004. Teh internetz say a 4004 is a rebadged Spectra 70 (IBM 360 clone) they bought from RCA. De From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 21:46:41 2011 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:46:41 -0600 Subject: Microsoft Online Message-ID: OK, does anyone know what this is?? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140474798391 Google fails me on this, other than to find that a guy once wrote a manual for it. My (uninformed) guess is that it's an early TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.x. I'm almost tempted to buy it to find out, were it not for the Canadian shipping. -- jht From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 24 22:02:33 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 23:02:33 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview Message-ID: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> Starts at 41:35 here: http://www.awakemedia.com/DrFuture/DrF37_Feb222011_TedNel.mp3 From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 22:37:46 2011 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 20:37:46 -0800 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Jason T wrote: > OK, does anyone know what this is?? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140474798391 > > Google fails me on this, other than to find that a guy once wrote a > manual for it. > > My (uninformed) guess is that it's an early TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.x. > I have a vague recollection that it was something like a BBS client sort of thing, something like CompuServe CIM of the same era. If it is the thing I am thinking it was, one use of it at the time was to post questions to Microsoft product support engineers. -Glen From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Feb 24 23:17:00 2011 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:17:00 -0800 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 8:37 PM -0800 2/24/11, Glen Slick wrote: >On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Jason T wrote: >> OK, does anyone know what this is?? >> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140474798391 >> >> Google fails me on this, other than to find that a guy once wrote a >> manual for it. >> >> My (uninformed) guess is that it's an early TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.x. >> > >I have a vague recollection that it was something like a BBS client >sort of thing, something like CompuServe CIM of the same era. > >If it is the thing I am thinking it was, one use of it at the time was >to post questions to Microsoft product support engineers. > >-Glen Seems likely that it was a client for some online service. Though I don't remember it. I was big into Prodigy at the time, but also had accounts on CompuServe & GEnie, as well as some Washington DC area BBS's. That's what people thought of back then when you said "online". It's old enough that it's unlikely it's anything even remotely TCP/IP related. In '91 as far as MS was concerned the Internet and TCP/IP didn't exist. In '92 it was *almost* impossible to find a commercial ISP. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Feb 24 23:59:11 2011 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:59:11 -0800 Subject: Fwd: FS. SETI Radio Astronomy Ground Station Message-ID: <201102242159.12047.lbickley@bickleywest.com> FYI Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: [TekScopes2] OT: FS. SETI Radio Astronomy Ground Station Date: Thursday 24 February 2011, 20:43:17 From: "J. Forster" To: hp_agilent_equipment at yahoogroups.com, Tekscopes2 at yahoogroups.com, Vintage-Military-RADAR at yahoogroups.com, AILtech at yahoogroups.com CC: EIP_Microwave at yahoogroups.com, Watkins-Johnson at yahoogroups.com, ArmyRadios at yahoogroup.com, Milsurplus at mailman.qth.net, "Rachel Tortolini" >From another list, -John ================= ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: For Sale Ground station. From: "Rachel Tortolini" Date: Thu, February 24, 2011 8:07 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Greetings: I have a radio astronomy/seti/ground station for sale minus the antenna. The equipment covers microwave to baseband and fft signal processing. the equipment fills 12 six foot racks. (It covers 10 by 30 foot storage locker. Must sell as I have Parkinson's Disease and must retire. Anyone sincerely interested may contact me and a database can be sent with pictures, etc. Location is Hawaii. You will need a mover but it is all packed and ready to go. I am willing to negotiate price compensation for your shipping cost. Please contact me off-list. Rachel ================= ----------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley, AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From doug at doughq.com Thu Feb 24 17:13:16 2011 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:13:16 +1100 Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D66E60C.3090902@doughq.com> On 24/02/2011 5:49 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> A later revision (-002) of that manual updates the Figure 1-6 on page >> I/1-9 and explicitly labels the heads upper (1) and lower (0) while >> retaining the text throughout that refers to them as the opposite of >> that. Interesting and confusing! >> >> I guess you'll have to measure to find out. > I wonder if the heads were originally refered to as the 'up' and 'down' > head. That would have been conventional at one time and refers to the > direction that the heads face. So the 'up' head is the lower one, the > 'down# haed is the upper one. > > If this got edited by somebody unfamiliar with the terms, the 'up' head > may well have become the 'upper' head, hence the confusion > > -tony What hapens when a RL02 is installed upside down :-) From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Feb 25 02:04:53 2011 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 00:04:53 -0800 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Yes, Windows 95 was the first product to incorporate TCP/IP - and I remember the panic it caused. :-) I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network - but Bill Gates (quite correctly) saw that TCP/IP was going to quickly replace the telco-based POPs. We made the change to include TCP/IP "in the box" *in 1995*. We worked a lot.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2011 9:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Microsoft Online At 8:37 PM -0800 2/24/11, Glen Slick wrote: >On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Jason T wrote: >> OK, does anyone know what this is?? >> > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140474798391 >> >> Google fails me on this, other than to find that a guy once wrote a >> manual for it. >> >> My (uninformed) guess is that it's an early TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.x. >> > >I have a vague recollection that it was something like a BBS client >sort of thing, something like CompuServe CIM of the same era. > >If it is the thing I am thinking it was, one use of it at the time was >to post questions to Microsoft product support engineers. > >-Glen Seems likely that it was a client for some online service. Though I don't remember it. I was big into Prodigy at the time, but also had accounts on CompuServe & GEnie, as well as some Washington DC area BBS's. That's what people thought of back then when you said "online". It's old enough that it's unlikely it's anything even remotely TCP/IP related. In '91 as far as MS was concerned the Internet and TCP/IP didn't exist. In '92 it was *almost* impossible to find a commercial ISP. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | | Photographer | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | My flickr Photostream | | http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ | From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 25 03:38:29 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 10:38:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Feb 2011, Dennis Boone wrote: > > I suspect that it is some sort of rom, but if anyone has a better > > explanation I would be interested. > > It's marked as containing microcode. The seller describes "specially > wound ceramic rods", so I'd guess it's conceptually similar to rope No, he doesn't say that. > memory. Looks like this is one of at least two such units to make a > full word, as the bit planes are numbered 16-31. Other markings on the > cards suggest it's from a Siemens System 4004. Teh internetz say a > 4004 is a rebadged Spectra 70 (IBM 360 clone) they bought from RCA. What are you talking about?!? The page sais "Ampex Copper Core Memory Board 1976" and there are no numbered planes, no markings from Siemens or the like, and it is clearly not a rom containing microcode, it's just a plain "standard" memory board. (Remember, this discussion is about Epay no. 320652132954) Christian From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 06:43:41 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 07:43:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: Chameleon Cartridge for C-64 In-Reply-To: <4D66F568.50301@philpem.me.uk> References: <445986.23148.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <4D65D12A.2020508@philpem.me.uk> <4D665DE7.4020208@philpem.me.uk> <4D66F568.50301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Feb 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote: > On 24/02/11 18:01, Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I will look into it. Thinking out loud: I wonder if the data format is >> compatible with any of the open-source Catweasel code, or could be >> converted in such a manner. > > It could be, but you'd have to resample the data. Basically, it's one > floating-point multiply operation per transition. > > CatweaselValue = DiscferretValue * (CatweaselClock / DiscferretClock) > > CatweaselClock -- Catweasel acquisition clock rate, in Hz > DiscferretClock -- 100e6 (for the latest firmware) > DiscferretValue -- timing value from the DiscFerret > CatweaselValue -- equivalent value from a Catweasel > > You'll be throwing away a fair amount of timing resolution, and you need to > be careful about timing overflows. Use the appropriate CatweaselClock value > to get the most resolution without the value clipping to 127. > > If memory serves, the Catweasel starts counting from 0, in which case you'll > need a -1 on the end of that. The DiscFerret uses a stored byte of '0' as a > special value -- "the counter overflowed, add 127 to the next count value". > It actually counts from 1, i.e. "there was a 10ns gap between the last two > transitions". Bit 7 is still used for the state of the INDEX bit, though if > the group wishes, a config bit could be added to use the entire 8 bits for > timing data... That's quite clear, thanks! Depending upon license specifics, bolting the DiscFerret's acquisition feature to existing CW decode logic may be a cheap and dirty way to get started. Long term, I have some ideas for a software framework that would be relatively simple to build decoders on. More when I've had a chance to think about it. Steve -- From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 25 08:43:29 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:43:29 -0500 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: References: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201102250943.29866.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday, February 25, 2011, Christian Corti wrote: > > memory. Looks like this is one of at least two such units to make > > a full word, as the bit planes are numbered 16-31. Other markings > > on the cards suggest it's from a Siemens System 4004. Teh > > internetz say a 4004 is a rebadged Spectra 70 (IBM 360 clone) they > > bought from RCA. > > What are you talking about?!? The message he replied to: On Thursday, February 24, 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: > And another strange core memory board...... > > Ebay 180628933361 > > I suspect that it is some sort of rom, but if anyone has a better > explanation I would be interested. > > Jos Perhaps you should get a mail client that does threading correctly? :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 25 08:46:55 2011 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:46:55 -0500 Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: <4D66E60C.3090902@doughq.com> References: <4D66E60C.3090902@doughq.com> Message-ID: <201102250946.55223.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday, February 24, 2011, Doug Jackson wrote: > On 24/02/2011 5:49 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I wonder if the heads were originally refered to as the 'up' and > > 'down' head. That would have been conventional at one time and > > refers to the direction that the heads face. So the 'up' head is > > the lower one, the 'down# haed is the upper one. > > > > If this got edited by somebody unfamiliar with the terms, the 'up' > > head may well have become the 'upper' head, hence the confusion > > > > -tony > > What hapens when a RL02 is installed upside down :-) All of the bits fall off of the platters. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 25 08:43:54 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:43:54 -0600 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: References: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> <201102241748.p1OHmQ59079196@billY.EZWIND.NET> <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <201102251452.p1PEqRBO020873@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 03:38 AM 2/25/2011, Christian Corti wrote: >What are you talking about?!? >The page sais "Ampex Copper Core Memory Board 1976" and there are no numbered planes, no markings from Siemens or the like, and it is clearly not a rom containing microcode, it's just a plain "standard" memory board. >(Remember, this discussion is about Epay no. 320652132954) No, someone thread-hijacked before I saw a definitive answer: At 02:24 PM 2/24/2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: >And another strange core memory board...... >Ebay 180628933361 I'm not sure why I haven't had an answer yet. I've made a blood sacrifice. Those prongs are sharp. I thought it would work like SCSI troubles. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Feb 25 08:52:41 2011 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 08:52:41 -0600 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201102251455.p1PEtf9V021044@billY.EZWIND.NET> At 09:46 PM 2/24/2011, Jason T wrote: >OK, does anyone know what this is?? > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140474798391 > >Google fails me on this, other than to find that a guy once wrote a >manual for it. A 1991 press release that says the OLE 1.0 spec can be downloaded from Compuserve and Windows Online: http://www.accessmylibrary.com/article-1G1-11124989/ole-microsoft-object-linking.html - John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 09:04:50 2011 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:04:50 -0600 Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <201102250943.29866.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201102250943.29866.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4D67C512.8070200@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> What are you talking about?!? > > The message he replied to: > > On Thursday, February 24, 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> And another strange core memory board...... >> >> Ebay 180628933361 > > Perhaps you should get a mail client that does threading correctly? :) Hmm, Thunderbird doesn't know how to handle it (and I consistently see that with Chuck's messages on this list, too, which TB always displays as though they were a reply to the first message in a thread, just like Dennis' one did for me here). There was enough unsnipped message to know who was replying to what, but TB frustrates the heck out of me when it does it. Anyway, Thunderbird rant over... :-) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 10:19:39 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:19:39 -0500 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 3:04 AM, Ian King wrote: > Yes, Windows 95 was the first product to incorporate TCP/IP - and I remember the panic it caused. ?:-) ?I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network - but Bill Gates (quite correctly) saw that TCP/IP was going to quickly replace the telco-based POPs. ?We made the change to include TCP/IP "in the box" *in 1995*. ?We worked a lot.... ?-- Ian I remember that transition. In 1994 and early 1995, I installed Trumpet Winsock on a lot of Windows 3.1 machines. Unfortunately, even up to the August release of Win95, the typical desktop for our users was (admittedly obsolete by that time) a 386SX16 (Dell 316 or some variety of Compaq box) with 2MB of RAM, no hard disk, a 10Mbit Ethernet card, and booting off of a floppy to attach to a Novell Netware server to load apps (Lotus 1-2-3, Word Perfect, e-mail (DaVinci!), etc). The Novell servers, handling hundreds of users each, were high-end Compaq 486 boxes with up to 64MB of memory and a gig or two of disk. If you were blessed by the Network Engineer, your login could be permitted to load the seat-license-locked TCP stack for DOS/Novell and use Telnet and FTP. I had a lot more fun in the science lab where the standard machine was a Mac IIci or one of the SPARCstations (which had TCP/IP set up by default). But thank you, Ian, for your work. I did enjoy setting up TCP/IP out of the box when Win95 came out, vs having to go get bits and have grudging support from our Network guys about getting addresses, etc. (they used to be *very* stingy with assigning out blocks of IP addresses before the days of NAT Firewalls and private address space - the proliferation of TCP/IP to every desk pushed that change). -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 25 11:46:49 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:46:49 -0800 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D67EB09.9030206@bitsavers.org> > I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network Have you read "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" ? What a mess. Apple was no better, though (eWorld, etc.) I don't remember much push for broadband as mentioned in "Barbarians" From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 25 12:32:42 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:32:42 -0700 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: <4D67EB09.9030206@bitsavers.org> References: <4D67EB09.9030206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <4D67EB09.9030206 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network > > Have you read "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" ? I wonder about books where the star spread on amazon's customer reviews is evenly distributed in every bucket: 5: 13 4: 11 3: 15 2: 10 1: 14 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 25 12:34:40 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:34:40 -0700 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4D6729D9.3000407 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > Starts at 41:35 here: > http://www.awakemedia.com/DrFuture/DrF37_Feb222011_TedNel.mp3 Transcript summary: I invented everything and I awesome? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 12:38:56 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:38:56 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> Message-ID: > Transcript summary: I invented everything and I awesome? No, that title belongs to Ray Kurzweil. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 12:44:13 2011 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:44:13 -0500 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: References: <4D67EB09.9030206@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I wonder about books where the star spread on amazon's customer > reviews is evenly distributed in every bucket: > > 5: 13 > 4: 11 > 3: 15 > 2: 10 > 1: 14 That is the Fanboy normal distribution. -- Will From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Feb 25 12:50:31 2011 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:50:31 -0500 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) Message-ID: >> I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network > Have you read "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" ? > What a mess. Apple was no better, though (eWorld, etc.) I don't > remember much push for broadband as mentioned in "Barbarians" I came from the academic side where Ethernet networking had been standard for some time by the mid-90's and getting networks of VAXen and Suns to interoperate was a breeze. In contrast the mid-90's era focus by consumer OS's (read that as "Windows and bolt on products") on the modem as the lynchpin in networking, was simply bizarre to me. By that time on PC-clones with MS-DOS we had been using the NCSA stack for Telnet and FTP and all the other good stuff, for many years. Completely stable and just worked. I was especially fond of a simple configuration of MS-DOS Kermit. I was completely stumped by Windows 95 networking and Trumpet Winsock. They made it a zillion times harder. To this day whenever I have to configure Windows networking and am forced to click on all the variations of "No I don't have an ISP but I can still connect to the internet" I still become enraged. Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 13:12:40 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:12:40 -0500 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 1:50 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > I came from the academic side where Ethernet networking had been standard for some time by the mid-90's and getting networks of VAXen and Suns to interoperate was a breeze. When you were doing that, I was in an environment of VAXes running VMS and Ultrix linked with async lines (lots of Kermit going on ;-) and sync lines (some DDCMP/DECnet and *lots* of Bisync/HASP) since we manufactured Bisync products and had a shelf of sync modem eliminators in our comms rack. When the company flared out in 1993, there wasn't a single Ethernet NIC nor an inch of coax or twisted pair anywhere to be seen. Coming from that, I was happy to jump into an environment where TCP/IP could be found. > In contrast the mid-90's era focus by consumer OS's (read that as "Windows and bolt on products") on the modem as the lynchpin in networking, was simply bizarre to me. Yeah... in the late 1980s, my modem was busy pumping UUCP up and down to my Amiga (I helped debug one of the issues with the HDB UUCP port). By the mid-1990s, I had my first TCP/IP network going between the Amiga (via A2065 Zorro-II Ethernet NIC) and a surplussed SPARCstation 1. The modem was still doing UUCP duties until 1996 when I found a device driver for AmigaDOS (telser.device) that emulated a modem over a TCP/IP socket (we had a local "club" that had set up a UUCP calling pyramid, and it was still handy to be a part of that). A very different networking world from the stuff that Byte magazine was covering. -ethan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 25 13:38:38 2011 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:38:38 -0800 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a31b638451e2ec2a2c30a921be80426@cs.ubc.ca> On 2011 Feb 25, at 10:50 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >>> I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network > >> Have you read "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" ? >> What a mess. Apple was no better, though (eWorld, etc.) I don't >> remember much push for broadband as mentioned in "Barbarians" > > I came from the academic side where Ethernet networking had been > standard for some time by the mid-90's and getting networks of VAXen > and Suns to interoperate was a breeze. Yes, IME that was a/the standard going back to pre-1985. In a sense, http/www is the only thing new since then, everything else has been 'more of the same', minus the distraction of proprietary protocols. > In contrast the mid-90's era focus by consumer OS's (read that as > "Windows and bolt on products") on the modem as the lynchpin in > networking, was simply bizarre to me. > > By that time on PC-clones with MS-DOS we had been using the NCSA stack > for Telnet and FTP and all the other good stuff, for many years. > Completely stable and just worked. I was especially fond of a simple > configuration of MS-DOS Kermit. > > I was completely stumped by Windows 95 networking and Trumpet Winsock. > They made it a zillion times harder. To this day whenever I have to > configure Windows networking and am forced to click on all the > variations of "No I don't have an ISP but I can still connect to the > internet" I still become enraged. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 25 14:02:23 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:02:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: <4D66E60C.3090902@doughq.com> from "Doug Jackson" at Feb 25, 11 10:13:16 am Message-ID: > > What hapens when a RL02 is installed upside down :-) You have a devil of a job getting the pack and pack cover in. The latter is likely to fall out before you can close the cover. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 25 14:08:48 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:08:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Bit of DEC Trivia In-Reply-To: <4D6678D2.11031.1017889@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 24, 11 03:27:14 pm Message-ID: > I'd always assumed that the reason a relative shallow spool was used > is because the tape is reel-driven, sans capstans to assure a more-or- > less constant speed. Some sort of clocking mechanism (either with a > clock track or by modulation methods) would seem to be a necessity. > > And it's also why you don't see 2400' DECtape reels... > > Cheap Japanese portable tape recorders of about the same time also > used reel-drive; some even had rheostats to tweak the motor speed. The HP9865 (I assume), internal cassette drive of the HP9830 (and I asusme 9821) and other machines using a simialr mechanism (such as the Racal P72 Digideck) were spool-drive only. The Racal manual claims this is a beneifit since it reduces tape wear. Hmmm... Anyway, these units use something called BMS encoding (Bit-Mark Sequence, I believe). There are 2 tacks on the tape. A '1' bit is a pulse on one of the tracks. A '0' bit is a pulse on the other track, A byte marker is a pusle on the 2 tracks simultaneuosly. Obviously this is self-clocking, so tape speed doesn't matter too mach. AFIk, HP put a marker at the start of every (9 bit) word on the tape, Racal put one on the start and end of every word. So words on a Racal tape have 2 markers between htme, on an HP tape only one. Th 9 bit words is the 8 bits of the'user byte, and a flag bit. The latter is in the middle of the worf, and is set to indciate file markes and the like. Putting it in the middle means it's in the same position relative to the amrkers no matter which way yhr tape is movign, so you can scan for file markers in either direction. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 25 14:11:14 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:11:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Egads! In-Reply-To: <4D66F8E0.80908@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 24, 11 07:33:36 pm Message-ID: > > What is so odd about that? It seems to be just a normal 4040-based > > controller board. The 4002s are the special RAMs for this processor, the > > 4289 is an interface from the strange 4040 bus to conventional memory > > devices, presumably to link up the 1702 EPROMs. > > In my experience, 4040-based equipment is even rarer than 4004-based > designs. Ah, my expeirence is the opposite. I have never seen a 4004 'in the flesh' (do I mean 'in the silicon' :-)), but I have 2 devices using 40404s here, one of them cotnaisn 2 of said CPUs. Namely an Intel Univerl Prom Porgrammer and a Fluke 2240 data logger. -tony From chrise at pobox.com Fri Feb 25 14:49:59 2011 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:49:59 -0600 Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: References: <4D66E60C.3090902@doughq.com> Message-ID: <20110225204959.GF4057@n0jcf.net> On Friday (02/25/2011 at 08:02PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > What hapens when a RL02 is installed upside down :-) > > You have a devil of a job getting the pack and pack cover in. The latter > is likely to fall out before you can close the cover. But maybe this would keep the (normally) upward facing head from crashing then?? :-) I still don't know which head is which but I have determined that neither head is completely borked in the drive I am working on. I don't start getting errors until out around cylinder 490 or so... before that, it reads without error. So, that is much more hopeful. Just need to run through the cal / adjustment procedures and see if I can't bring it back into line. Part of that process will reveal to me which head is which... as I will see the results of the head the software selects on a scope. Thanks for the input on the issue though. It is appreciated. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 25 15:11:00 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:11:00 -0500 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) References: Message-ID: <1DE6C436370D40A7A06C976B88869582@dell8300> Where I worked in the early 90's we used Win 3.x and Novell Netware for networking. My first home network (and that of my friends) was playing DOOM over coax using Novel Personally Netware. It was a while before everyone I knew went to TCP/IP networking at home. Once NT 4 came out everyone was using TCP/IP at companies for networking and started dumping Novell. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shoppa, Tim" To: Sent: Friday, February 25, 2011 1:50 PM Subject: Re: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) >> I was on the MSN team and we were building an AX.25 network > Have you read "Barbarians Led by Bill Gates" ? > What a mess. Apple was no better, though (eWorld, etc.) I don't > remember much push for broadband as mentioned in "Barbarians" I came from the academic side where Ethernet networking had been standard for some time by the mid-90's and getting networks of VAXen and Suns to interoperate was a breeze. In contrast the mid-90's era focus by consumer OS's (read that as "Windows and bolt on products") on the modem as the lynchpin in networking, was simply bizarre to me. By that time on PC-clones with MS-DOS we had been using the NCSA stack for Telnet and FTP and all the other good stuff, for many years. Completely stable and just worked. I was especially fond of a simple configuration of MS-DOS Kermit. I was completely stumped by Windows 95 networking and Trumpet Winsock. They made it a zillion times harder. To this day whenever I have to configure Windows networking and am forced to click on all the variations of "No I don't have an ISP but I can still connect to the internet" I still become enraged. Tim. From geoffr at zipcon.net Fri Feb 25 16:17:07 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:17:07 -0800 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: <1DE6C436370D40A7A06C976B88869582@dell8300> Message-ID: On 2/25/11 1:11 PM, "Teo Zenios" wrote: > Where I worked in the early 90's we used Win 3.x and Novell Netware for > networking. My first home network (and that of my friends) was playing DOOM > over coax using Novel Personally Netware. It was a while before everyone I > knew went to TCP/IP networking at home. Once NT 4 came out everyone was > using TCP/IP at companies for networking and started dumping Novell. > Ah ipx/spx IIRC :) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 17:06:04 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:06:04 -0500 Subject: Early days of TCP/IP on the desk (was Re: Microsoft Online) In-Reply-To: References: <1DE6C436370D40A7A06C976B88869582@dell8300> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Geoffrey Reed wrote: > On 2/25/11 1:11 PM, "Teo Zenios" wrote: > ... playing DOOM over coax... > > Ah ipx/spx IIRC :) We did multi-player DOOM via IPX over ARCNET for LAN parties for a long time - until Quake over Broadband pushed DOOM to the side. -ethan From evan at snarc.net Fri Feb 25 17:52:52 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:52:52 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> >> Starts at 41:35 here: http://www.awakemedia.com/DrFuture/DrF37_Feb222011_TedNel.mp3 > Transcript summary: I invented everything and I awesome? Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Feb 25 22:17:11 2011 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 20:17:11 -0800 Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D687EC7.1010406@mail.msu.edu> On 2/23/2011 11:02 AM, Tony Duell wrote: >> I just got done trying this. No dice, with the membrane disconnected 3 >> of the LEDs light up constantly and that's it (no beeps or anything > You did remove the metal clips from the PCB and not just pull out the > membran tails I trust. If you do the latter, said clips short all the > pads togther and cause all sorts of problems. Affirmative. Clips removed, etc. >> else). With the membrane connected I get 4 LEDs and a few very short >> (shorter than I recall under normal circumstances) beeps. So perhaps >> the membrane isn't to blame in this case. > Thsi, AFAIK, makes no sense. A correctly working membrane assembly is > open-circuit between all conenctions. So the cotnroller PCB can't tell > whether it's connected or not. Hey, just reporting on what I'm seeing :). Perhaps both the controller and the membrane have got something wrong with them. At any rate, I dropped by a local recycler (RE-PC in Tukwila, WA) and they had a box of LK201s for $5 each. I picked up a few just to be on the safe side :). Everything seems to be working fine now, just need to get VMS up and running... Thanks all for the help! Josh From evan at snarc.net Sat Feb 26 00:03:53 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:03:53 -0500 Subject: VCF East 7.0 updates In-Reply-To: <4D633A35.2010707@snarc.net> References: <4D633A35.2010707@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D6897C9.8040507@snarc.net> > 3. Our exhibit registration is open at > http://www.vintage.org/2011/east/index.php (click the 'exhibits' link > on the top right), BUT, it currently only works for people who > previously registered. It's not working for new registrants. We're > trying to fix that. I think it's fixed now, but I'm not 100% sure .... go ahead and try, and let me know (evan-at-snarc-dot-net) if you have problems. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Feb 26 03:39:41 2011 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 10:39:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: Identify core board? In-Reply-To: <201102250943.29866.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4D66BE61.8080207@bluewin.ch> <20110225030613.650E9A5825F@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <201102250943.29866.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 25 Feb 2011, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday, February 25, 2011, Christian Corti wrote: >> What are you talking about?!? > The message he replied to: > > On Thursday, February 24, 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote: Well, this line above was missing, so I couldn't see who wrote what... Perhaps people should learn to quote correctly? ;-) > Perhaps you should get a mail client that does threading correctly? :) I'm using Pine and Alpine; do you know any other good text-mode email clients (apart from Mutt which I don't like)? If OTOH classiccmp was a usenet group instead of a mailing list, there would be no such problems. Christian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 10:19:41 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 16:19:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Feb 25, 11 06:52:52 pm Message-ID: > > > >> Starts at 41:35 here: http://www.awakemedia.com/DrFuture/DrF37_Feb222011_TedNel.mp3 > > Transcript summary: I invented everything and I awesome? > > Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important > figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. Actually, I've neer heard of him. This is my fault, of course, but could somebofy enlighten me as to what he was involved with. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 09:53:07 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:53:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: RL02 head numbering In-Reply-To: <20110225204959.GF4057@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Feb 25, 11 02:49:59 pm Message-ID: > > On Friday (02/25/2011 at 08:02PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > What hapens when a RL02 is installed upside down :-) > > > > You have a devil of a job getting the pack and pack cover in. The latter > > is likely to fall out before you can close the cover. > > But maybe this would keep the (normally) upward facing head from > crashing then?? :-) Alas not, the head load springs easily overcome any force of gravity. > > I still don't know which head is which but I have determined that neither > head is completely borked in the drive I am working on. I don't start Can't you work this out from the schematics? Trace the head sleect signal from the cotnroller (through shift registers IIRC) to the drive and then see which of the 2 heads it selectes in each state. 'All' you have ot do then is dtermine which head is plugged into whcih connector on the R/W PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 26 10:27:03 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 16:27:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VCB02 woes in a MicroVAX III In-Reply-To: <4D687EC7.1010406@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Feb 25, 11 08:17:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 2/23/2011 11:02 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I just got done trying this. No dice, with the membrane disconnected 3 > >> of the LEDs light up constantly and that's it (no beeps or anything > > You did remove the metal clips from the PCB and not just pull out the > > membran tails I trust. If you do the latter, said clips short all the > > pads togther and cause all sorts of problems. > > Affirmative. Clips removed, etc. OK.. One thing I have learnt from years of 'remote fault finding' is the qurstion that Iforget to ask is the one that gives the real clue to what is going on :-) > > >> else). With the membrane connected I get 4 LEDs and a few very short > >> (shorter than I recall under normal circumstances) beeps. So perhaps > >> the membrane isn't to blame in this case. > > Thsi, AFAIK, makes no sense. A correctly working membrane assembly is > > open-circuit between all conenctions. So the cotnroller PCB can't tell > > whether it's connected or not. > > Hey, just reporting on what I'm seeing :). Perhaps both the controller > and the membrane have got something wrong with them. Sure, I understnad. I am trying to work out what on earth could be going on I cna't see how disconnecting open-circuits from a drvice can change things. Perhaps you are right. Perhaps there are short-circuits in the membrane, and perhaps also there's a problem wit hthe controller board. I assime you've checked this unconnected controlelr board on the VT220, where you know it once worked, just in case there's a porblem with the microVAX gaphics board. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 11:58:18 2011 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 09:58:18 -0800 Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer Message-ID: Looked at the Microsoft package mentioned and then looked at the rest of their items for sale. Noticed a couple of interesting pieces. 140486117150 Vintage Oasys 30 AFII Japanese luggable computer Cheap Altos V terminal if you can pick it up. shipping expensive 140517031868 Altos V-H Serial ASCII terminal 130491138458 Altos x086 Multibus Adapter Board with Tapemaster card They have a bunch of PS2 computers also at the moment. No connection with The Hackery in Vancouver BC, Canada other than as a customer. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Feb 26 12:14:12 2011 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 13:14:12 -0500 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6942F4.5010405@hawkmountain.net> Not familiar with Microsoft Online... but the TCP/IP stack IIRC for Windows (might only be for W4WG) was called Wolverine (which might might be the project name) and was a free download from MS. I had a cd burning system (with Phillips CDD-521) running W4WG with Wolverine. Who knows if Wolverine is still available for download from MS though. -- Curt Glen Slick wrote: > On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 7:46 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> OK, does anyone know what this is?? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140474798391 >> >> Google fails me on this, other than to find that a guy once wrote a >> manual for it. >> >> My (uninformed) guess is that it's an early TCP/IP stack for Windows 3.x. >> >> > > I have a vague recollection that it was something like a BBS client > sort of thing, something like CompuServe CIM of the same era. > > If it is the thing I am thinking it was, one use of it at the time was > to post questions to Microsoft product support engineers. > > -Glen > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Feb 26 13:25:13 2011 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:25:13 -0800 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D695399.5080901@brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > Actually, I've neer heard of him. He invented hypertext in 1963. (Or at least hypertext in a recognizable "modern" form; Vannevar Bush arguably may have invented hypertext in 1945.) Although Nelson built a hypertext system in the 1960s (as did Doug Engelbart), and various other small-scale systems were built over the next few decades, it generally took the world until the 1990s to catch up. Nelson would claim that we actually still haven't caught up, because HTML has many serious deficiencies compared to what he invented. Nelson is also famous for writing _Computer Lib/Dream Machines_. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Feb 26 13:57:35 2011 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:57:35 -0800 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D695399.5080901@brouhaha.com> References: <4D695399.5080901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4D695B2F.2040302@bitsavers.org> On 2/26/11 11:25 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > various other small-scale systems were built over the next few decades Wired had a fairly long article in June, 1995 about this called "The Curse of Xanadu" From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 26 14:27:52 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:27:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20110226122248.I69755@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Tony Duell wrote: > Actually, I've neer heard of him. This is my fault, of course, but could > somebofy enlighten me as to what he was involved with. He developed the concept and term of "hypertext". He wrote extensively (his writing style is a bit hard to follow), and headed project "Xanadu". A small subset of which became www. (He considers www to be grossly inadequate compared to his grandiose plans) Find (or download (Google)) "Hyperland". It was a BBC special in 1991 (before www), with Ted Nelson, Douglas Adams, and Tom Baker (Dr. Who). It is an amazing and entertaining prediction of what the internet would become. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From geoffr at zipcon.net Sat Feb 26 14:38:26 2011 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:38:26 -0800 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: <4D6942F4.5010405@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On 2/26/11 10:14 AM, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." wrote: > > Not familiar with Microsoft Online... but the TCP/IP stack IIRC for > Windows (might only be for W4WG) was called Wolverine (which might > might be the project name) and was a free download from MS. > > I had a cd burning system (with Phillips CDD-521) running W4WG with > Wolverine. Who knows if Wolverine is still available for download from > MS though. > > -- Curt > > > Glen Slick wrote: Don't think so, but there is woofwoof 3.2 available which IIRC had the TCP/IP stack in it.... From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Feb 26 16:09:19 2011 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 17:09:19 -0500 Subject: Microsoft Online References: Message-ID: <61CF7F5EB0A04AC0A55BD0E95082E72F@dell8300> You mean this: http://support.microsoft.com/kb/111682 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Reed" To: "cctalk" Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 3:38 PM Subject: Re: Microsoft Online > > > > On 2/26/11 10:14 AM, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." > wrote: > >> >> Not familiar with Microsoft Online... but the TCP/IP stack IIRC for >> Windows (might only be for W4WG) was called Wolverine (which might >> might be the project name) and was a free download from MS. >> >> I had a cd burning system (with Phillips CDD-521) running W4WG with >> Wolverine. Who knows if Wolverine is still available for download from >> MS though. >> >> -- Curt >> >> >> Glen Slick wrote: > > Don't think so, but there is woofwoof 3.2 available which IIRC had the > TCP/IP stack in it.... > > From evan at snarc.net Sat Feb 26 16:40:27 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 17:40:27 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D69815A.2090903@snarc.net> >>>> Starts at 41:35 here: http://www.awakemedia.com/DrFuture/DrF37_Feb222011_TedNel.mp3 >>> Transcript summary: I invented everything and I awesome? >> Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. > Actually, I've neer heard of him. This is my fault, of course, but could somebofy enlighten me as to what he was involved with. I don't understand, Tony. I mean, you spent the past several years trying to convince us all that you * everything *. :) (Sorry, couldn't help myself. Let's please try to keep this thread about Ted Nelson.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 26 17:22:46 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:22:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D69815A.2090903@snarc.net> References: <4D69815A.2090903@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110226152045.H69755@shell.lmi.net> > > Actually, I've neer heard of him. This is my fault, of course, but > > could somebofy enlighten me as to what he was involved with. On Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Evan Koblentz wrote: > I don't understand, Tony. I mean, you spent the past several years > trying to convince us all that you * everything *. :) > (Sorry, couldn't help myself. Let's please try to keep this thread > about Ted Nelson.) As far as I know, Ted never designed any HARDWARE. That could be why Tony ne'er heard of him. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 26 17:36:24 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:36:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D695399.5080901@brouhaha.com> References: <4D695399.5080901@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20110226152532.B69755@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 26 Feb 2011, Eric Smith wrote: > He invented hypertext in 1963. (Or at least hypertext in a recognizable > "modern" form; Vannevar Bush arguably may have invented hypertext in > 1945.) Ted explicitly gave credit to Vannevar Bush. (Vannevar Bush did NOT give credit to those whose work HE built on (Emmanual Godberg, etc.)) Bush never built a Memex to the full specs that he described, but people still argue over whether "As We May Think" was a future vision or describing his existing work. Even the flash tubes were not yet commercially available that could do what Bush claimed. > Although Nelson built a hypertext system in the 1960s (as did > Doug Engelbart), and various other small-scale systems were built over > the next few decades, it generally took the world until the 1990s to > catch up. Nelson would claim that we actually still haven't caught up, > because HTML has many serious deficiencies compared to what he invented. I think that HTML was an ESSENTIAL, needed, intermediate step. Without it, or its equivalent, we would still be enjoying gopher-space. Some great programmers, such as Roger Gregory, worked on Xanadu. I think that we have many decades before the world can catch up to Ted's "vision". (or even if it SHOULD). > Nelson is also famous for writing _Computer Lib/Dream Machines_. I can't find the VHS tape of his pilot for a Silicon Valley soap opera. But, "Hyperland" IS on the web! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Feb 26 21:31:49 2011 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 22:31:49 -0500 Subject: Microsoft Online In-Reply-To: <61CF7F5EB0A04AC0A55BD0E95082E72F@dell8300> References: <61CF7F5EB0A04AC0A55BD0E95082E72F@dell8300> Message-ID: <4D69C5A5.4020507@hawkmountain.net> I believe that is it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_3.1x mentions and indicates that Wolverine was the project name. It is termed an "add-on package", so maybe Microsoft never gave it a "product" name. Wolverine was the code name. It worked fine for my 10Mbit LAN at the time :-) -- Curt Teo Zenios wrote: > You mean this: > > http://support.microsoft.com/kb/111682 > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Geoffrey Reed" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: Microsoft Online > > >> >> >> >> On 2/26/11 10:14 AM, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Not familiar with Microsoft Online... but the TCP/IP stack IIRC for >>> Windows (might only be for W4WG) was called Wolverine (which might >>> might be the project name) and was a free download from MS. >>> >>> I had a cd burning system (with Phillips CDD-521) running W4WG with >>> Wolverine. Who knows if Wolverine is still available for download from >>> MS though. >>> >>> -- Curt >>> >>> >>> Glen Slick wrote: >> >> Don't think so, but there is woofwoof 3.2 available which IIRC had the >> TCP/IP stack in it.... >> >> > From evan at snarc.net Sun Feb 27 01:33:36 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 02:33:36 -0500 Subject: VCF East -- early GUIs exhibit Message-ID: <4D69FE50.5000008@snarc.net> Whoever registered an exhibit about early GUIs, you need to contact me, there's a problem with your registration -- for starters it lacks your name! From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 27 10:02:09 2011 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 11:02:09 -0500 Subject: VCF East -- early GUIs exhibit In-Reply-To: <4D69FE50.5000008@snarc.net> References: <4D69FE50.5000008@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D6A7581.3010702@atarimuseum.com> Evan - went onto the vintage.org site - where is the link for the VCF 7 exhibitor registration, can you just repost it here in the cctalk thread to directly get to it... Curt Evan Koblentz wrote: > Whoever registered an exhibit about early GUIs, you need to contact > me, there's a problem with your registration -- for starters it lacks > your name! > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 11:34:03 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:34:03 -0500 Subject: FW: eHam.net ad [homebrew S-100 68K CPU board] Message-ID: <1DD2C79E9C3B40DF80DE8BF3DC4E14AA@andrewdesktop> > > The following is a ad from eHam.net: > > Title: Motorola 68000 System > > Description: Unique 68000 S-100 CPU board and assorted other boards and > engineering notes for sale. The board is the design feature of my 68000 > book published in 1987. Photos and details at > http://wilcoxengineering.com/68000-microprocessor - I can provide more > specifics for serious inquiries only. > > The MR-8 concept and the communication-stack C code could form the basis > of a modern co-processor product for data collection, radio control > control, etc. All the code and papers are part of the collection. A > possible business opportunity growing out of an older processor - or an > engaging hobbyist project! > > Will not split; this special historical collection stays together. Contact > me through the site. > > ----- end of message ----- > > > You can see this ad in full at: > > http://eham.net/classifieds/detail/338428 > > > This email was sent to you from Alan D. Wilcox (W3DVX) through a > notification > system on eHam.net. > [AJL>] FYI anyone interested in a famous S-100 68K CPU board prototype. This is the board Prof Wilcox used in his book on 68000 system design and troubleshooting. A real historical piece! Thanks! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 27 11:34:59 2011 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:34:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D69815A.2090903@snarc.net> from "Evan Koblentz" at Feb 26, 11 05:40:27 pm Message-ID: > I don't understand, Tony. I mean, you spent the past several years > trying to convince us all that you * everything *. :) I beg your pardon... I have repeatedly said that I am not an expert on _anything_. And that there are many, many, things that I do not know, and cannot do. And I sill stick to that BTW, thanks to everyone who enlightened me as to what Ted Nelson did. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 14:38:17 2011 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:38:17 -0500 Subject: DEC Current Loop Connectors Message-ID: Who is the manufacturer and what are the part numbers for the male & female 20mA current loop connectors and contacts that are commonly used on DEC equipment? -- Michael Thompson From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 17:48:22 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 18:48:22 -0500 Subject: S-100 4MB SRAM PCBs Message-ID: Hi! I did a recent reorder of the S-100 4MB SRAM boards and have a few left over. If you would like one they are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US or $6 elsewhere. These boards were very popular last year and many builders requested for another batch. I got some extra PCBs anticipating there would be others coming along later. These boards have no known defects AFAIK and dozens builders have gotten them since last year. They can use either SRAM or Flash memory chips and are all DIP/PTH construction for easy assembly. Please contact me if you would like one or more. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS I set up a Google Group for announcements on the S100computers and N8VEM S-100 projects called N8VEM-S100 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 18:18:00 2011 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 19:18:00 -0500 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Message-ID: Hi Rod, I do not think an MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) to IDE bridge board is feasible. The SCSI-1 and IDE interfaces are purely digital and the drives are intelligent enough to abstract much of the realtime complexities of communicating with the hard drive itself. As a result the bridge board between the SCSI-1 and IDE is relatively simple and a basic Z80 embedded controller is able to accomplish the data transfer relatively easily. It is well suited for a community hobbyist project like the SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board we are working on at Vintage-Computer.com forums. MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) interfaces are a high speed extension of the Shugart floppy drive interface with some additional signals. It is a hard realtime interface and low level way to communicate with the hard drive. As a result it would require an extremely sophisticated high speed controller to interpret the signals to and from the MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412). A simple Z80 or microcontroller based controller would not be able to accomplish the task in my opinion. It may be possible but I believe it would be an expensive commercial device and probably quite rare. The SCSI-1 to/from IDE/SD project is a hobbyist community project and I think would be quite helpful to the wide array of legacy/vintage/classic devices which use SCSI-1 drives. So far, I have heard from owners of the obvious microcomputers like Atari, Amiga, Apple Mac, Sun workstations, DEC, etc. However many other devices used SCSI-1 devices such as synthesizers, a variety of test and lab equipment (?), sewing machines (?), photocopiers (?), and other devices I would have never suspected used SCSI-1 drives. At the moment, there are 6 builders with the prototype PCBs but none have reported a working build yet. The parts are very common and the design uses only "hobbyist friendly" construction for easy assembly. However, the software still needs to be written which should be largely reuse of existing Z80 code from existing N8VEM projects. If you or anyone else is interested in working on the project please contact me. I still have 4 remaining prototype PCBs. My goal is to get this project up and running before the SCSI-1 drives become difficult to obtain such as 100 TPI floppy drives, MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) hard drives, and other uncommon storage medias. All of the technical information on the project is available at the N8VEM wiki. It will be free/open and publicly posted for community benefit like the rest of the N8VEM boards. Please read the existing technical documentation before critiquing the design. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20to%20IDE%20prototypes Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Rod Smallwood rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Feb 22 02:36:34 CST 2011 * Previous message: GSX porting project * Next message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Hi This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM controller. Whilst your SCSI to IDE is nice I'm not short of SCSI drives. However with your experience you might like to comment on if you think a DEC MFM controller to IDE drive converter box is feasible. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org ] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 21 February 2011 14:39 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting for some interested builders to take on the project. As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I think if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM and/or other free/open software projects. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> * Previous message: GSX porting project * Next message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 19:42:05 2011 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 20:42:05 -0500 Subject: DEC Current Loop Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Who is the manufacturer and what are the part numbers for the male & > female 20mA current loop connectors and contacts that are commonly > used on DEC equipment? First Google hit for "DEC 20mA TTY connectors mate-n-lok": http://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/chapter1.html M = 8 contact, male plug. Manufacturer's Part No.: Mate-N-Lock 1-480460-0, DEC Part No. 12-09340-00. F = 8 contact, female receptacle, DEC Part No. 12-09340-01. Tyco appears to own the AMP brand right now. The pins are rather ordinary, but I don't know where to get the shells these days. Long ago, I hacked two male Molex 4-pin power connectors into a bastardized 8-pin shell to hook my PDP-8/L to a VT220 - it was ugly, but it mostly worked. -ethan From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 20:05:35 2011 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:05:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: FW: eHam.net ad [homebrew S-100 68K CPU board] In-Reply-To: <1DD2C79E9C3B40DF80DE8BF3DC4E14AA@andrewdesktop> References: <1DD2C79E9C3B40DF80DE8BF3DC4E14AA@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: On Sun, 27 Feb 2011, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> >> The following is a ad from eHam.net: >> >> Title: Motorola 68000 System >> >> Description: Unique 68000 S-100 CPU board and assorted other boards and >> engineering notes for sale. The board is the design feature of my 68000 >> book published in 1987. Photos and details at >> http://wilcoxengineering.com/68000-microprocessor - I can provide more >> specifics for serious inquiries only. >> >> The MR-8 concept and the communication-stack C code could form the basis >> of a modern co-processor product for data collection, radio control >> control, etc. All the code and papers are part of the collection. A >> possible business opportunity growing out of an older processor - or an >> engaging hobbyist project! >> >> Will not split; this special historical collection stays together. Contact >> me through the site. >> >> ----- end of message ----- >> >> >> You can see this ad in full at: >> >> http://eham.net/classifieds/detail/338428 >> >> >> This email was sent to you from Alan D. Wilcox (W3DVX) through a >> notification >> system on eHam.net. >> > > [AJL>] > FYI anyone interested in a famous S-100 68K CPU board prototype. This is > the board Prof Wilcox used in his book on 68000 system design and > troubleshooting. A real historical piece! Definitely of interest, but I have a feeling the price tag would be beyond my means. -- From david_comley at yahoo.com Sun Feb 27 21:39:09 2011 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 19:39:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Using tu58em to boot standalone backup on 11/750 ? Message-ID: <200456.64752.qm@web30608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Has anyone ever tried using the tu58em program to boot a VMS 5.2 install standalone backup on an 11/750 ? I ask because I am attempting to do so, and I keep encountering mount verify errors when I get to the fourth tape in the set. I see a lot of web references to using tu58em in the PDP-11 world, but not so much on the VAX. I suspect some sort of protocol error caused by an invalid response from the emulator. Same problem with the VMS 5.3 install, by the way. Before I pursue this approach to installing the OS any further I thought I'd see whether there's a known issue trying to do this. -Dave From vrs at msn.com Mon Feb 28 02:29:29 2011 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 00:29:29 -0800 Subject: DEC Current Loop Connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks": Sunday, February 27, 2011 5:42 PM > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> Who is the manufacturer and what are the part numbers for the male & >> female 20mA current loop connectors and contacts that are commonly >> used on DEC equipment? > > First Google hit for "DEC 20mA TTY connectors mate-n-lok": > > http://vt100.net/docs/vt05-rm/chapter1.html > > M = 8 contact, male plug. Manufacturer's Part No.: Mate-N-Lock > 1-480460-0, DEC Part No. 12-09340-00. > F = 8 contact, female receptacle, DEC Part No. 12-09340-01. > > Tyco appears to own the AMP brand right now. Ebay 220677788717, 230533546043, and 220677788699 (shipping is high, unless you get more than one). I also have some of these in my parts bins. Do you need both the male and female? Vince From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Feb 28 02:50:47 2011 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:50:47 -0000 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FE0577E0E24736A51AFB7B561E7808@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Hi Thank you for a most interesting reply. Despite having been around when the transitions between interface types happened, there was a lot I did not know. The fact that the ST506 interface was derived from 8" floppy technology was news to me. I collect DEC equipment and all of the MFM drives DEC sold were OEM badge jobs. There were three DEC RQDX MFM controllers I know of. I have a RQDX-1 and a couple of RQDX-3's. I have never seen a RQDX-2. All three are for the Q-bus. I have a few RD-53's but only one is reliable. The main logic board in an RD-53(Micropolis 1325) has a 8051 and a bunch of other stuff. I can't see how an interface board with an 8051 is regarded as dumb. I am not short of SCSI drives in assorted physical sizes, capacities and interface types. I also have a couple of third party Q-Bus SCSI controllers. Stating the obvious the above only applies to PDP11's. Yes I know you can put a Q-bus controller in a Q-bus VAX. So what's my problem? As with many collectors my goal is to get the systems back to the state they were in when they left the factory. I start with the model designation on the box label and try to restore back to what that defined. I'll stretch a point insofar as I'll use any MFM drive that DEC bought the OEM version of regardless of if came from DEC. Even allowing for that MFM drives that RQDX controllers can handle are getting scarce. So the problem is how the make an RQDX controller think its talking to an RD series MFM drive when it isn't. ? Rod Smallwood (G8DGR) ? -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 28 February 2011 00:18 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Hi Rod, I do not think an MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) to IDE bridge board is feasible. The SCSI-1 and IDE interfaces are purely digital and the drives are intelligent enough to abstract much of the realtime complexities of communicating with the hard drive itself. As a result the bridge board between the SCSI-1 and IDE is relatively simple and a basic Z80 embedded controller is able to accomplish the data transfer relatively easily. It is well suited for a community hobbyist project like the SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board we are working on at Vintage-Computer.com forums. MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) interfaces are a high speed extension of the Shugart floppy drive interface with some additional signals. It is a hard realtime interface and low level way to communicate with the hard drive. As a result it would require an extremely sophisticated high speed controller to interpret the signals to and from the MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412). A simple Z80 or microcontroller based controller would not be able to accomplish the task in my opinion. It may be possible but I believe it would be an expensive commercial device and probably quite rare. The SCSI-1 to/from IDE/SD project is a hobbyist community project and I think would be quite helpful to the wide array of legacy/vintage/classic devices which use SCSI-1 drives. So far, I have heard from owners of the obvious microcomputers like Atari, Amiga, Apple Mac, Sun workstations, DEC, etc. However many other devices used SCSI-1 devices such as synthesizers, a variety of test and lab equipment (?), sewing machines (?), photocopiers (?), and other devices I would have never suspected used SCSI-1 drives. At the moment, there are 6 builders with the prototype PCBs but none have reported a working build yet. The parts are very common and the design uses only "hobbyist friendly" construction for easy assembly. However, the software still needs to be written which should be largely reuse of existing Z80 code from existing N8VEM projects. If you or anyone else is interested in working on the project please contact me. I still have 4 remaining prototype PCBs. My goal is to get this project up and running before the SCSI-1 drives become difficult to obtain such as 100 TPI floppy drives, MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) hard drives, and other uncommon storage medias. All of the technical information on the project is available at the N8VEM wiki. It will be free/open and publicly posted for community benefit like the rest of the N8VEM boards. Please read the existing technical documentation before critiquing the design. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder ¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20to%20IDE%20prototypes Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Rod Smallwood rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Tue Feb 22 02:36:34 CST 2011 * Previous message: GSX porting project * Next message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Hi This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM controller. Whilst your SCSI to IDE is nice I'm not short of SCSI drives. However with your experience you might like to comment on if you think a DEC MFM controller to IDE drive converter box is feasible. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org ] On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch Sent: 21 February 2011 14:39 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting for some interested builders to take on the project. As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I think if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM and/or other free/open software projects. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> * Previous message: GSX porting project * Next message: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ From ken at seefried.com Mon Feb 28 09:59:34 2011 From: ken at seefried.com (KJ Seefried) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:59:34 -0500 Subject: Fujitsu Etherstar 86950B Doc Message-ID: <4D6BC666.2030609@seefried.com> Does anyone have a manual/datasheet/doc the for the Fujitsu Etherstar 86950B Ethernet controller? My Google-Fu has failed. I'm writing a driver for an old VMEBus card and there are a few things that I'd like to understand better. KJ From david at classiccomputing.com Mon Feb 28 13:33:12 2011 From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:33:12 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E5CB294-7B30-4436-9956-A828D34908AE@classiccomputing.com> > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 17:34:59 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Ted Nelson interview > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > >> I don't understand, Tony. I mean, you spent the past several years >> trying to convince us all that you * everything *. :) > > I beg your pardon... > > I have repeatedly said that I am not an expert on _anything_. And that > there are many, many, things that I do not know, and cannot do. And I > sill stick to that > > BTW, thanks to everyone who enlightened me as to what Ted Nelson did. Tony and everyone, You can also see Ted Nelson here - http://www.viddler.com/explore/waxpancake/videos/6/1.964/ Starting at 6:17. If anyone has never watched this documentary before, I highly recommend it! It's my favorite. Best, David Greelish, Computer Historian Classic Computing The Home of Computer History Nostalgia http://www.classiccomputing.com Classic Computing Blog Classic Computing Show video podcast "Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast Retro Computing Roundtable podcast Historical Computer Society Classic Computing Expo 1.0 - planning for sometime late 2011! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 28 13:42:18 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:42:18 -0700 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4D6840D4.8010002 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important > figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. Importance aside, people earn respect, they don't get to demand it. I don't care how damned important you are if you're an ass. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 28 13:49:12 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:49:12 -0700 Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In article , Paxton Hoag writes: > Cheap Altos V terminal if you can pick it up. shipping expensive > > 140517031868 > Altos V-H Serial ASCII terminal Anything interesting about this terminal? Its late enough in the game that its enclosure is really standard (just barely bigger than the tube). Does it do any graphics or anything else interesting? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Mon Feb 28 13:54:12 2011 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:54:12 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D6BFD64.3070107@snarc.net> >> Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. > Importance aside, people earn respect, they don't get to demand it. I don't care how damned important you are if you're an ass. That's ridiculous. There are many people in the history of the world and the history of tech whose work I respect even if they're jerks. Won't get very far in life if you only deal with the "nice" people. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 28 13:54:10 2011 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:54:10 -0500 Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6BFD62.9050506@neurotica.com> On 2/28/11 2:49 PM, Richard wrote: >> Cheap Altos V terminal if you can pick it up. shipping expensive >> >> 140517031868 >> Altos V-H Serial ASCII terminal > > Anything interesting about this terminal? Its late enough in the game > that its enclosure is really standard (just barely bigger than the > tube). Does it do any graphics or anything else interesting? It looks to me like a rebadged Wyse 50 or 60. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From legalize at xmission.com Mon Feb 28 14:01:37 2011 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:01:37 -0700 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: <4D6BFD64.3070107@snarc.net> References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> <4D6BFD64.3070107@snarc.net> Message-ID: In article <4D6BFD64.3070107 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > > >> Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important figur e in computer history, and he should be respected by us. > > Importance aside, people earn respect, they don't get to demand it. I don' t care how damned important you are if you're an ass. > > That's ridiculous. Not really. I'm not requried to respect anyone just because they're an important ass. As I say, respect is earned from the person who gives it. Noone gets to demand respect, regardless of their accomplishments. You may decide to give your respect to an ass, but that is still your choice, not a result of the demand from the ass. > There are many people in the history of the world > and the history of tech whose work I respect even if they're jerks. That's your choice. > Won't get very far in life if you only deal with the "nice" people. Non sequitor. There's not requirement that I respect everyone that I have to deal with. There are people I deal with routinely and producctively but I still don't respect them. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From oltmansg at bellsouth.net Mon Feb 28 14:08:30 2011 From: oltmansg at bellsouth.net (geoffrey oltmans) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:08:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> Message-ID: <118472.63619.qm@web83910.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Tell that to Charlie Sheen! ;) ________________________________ From: Richard To: cctalk Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 1:42:18 PM Subject: Re: Ted Nelson interview In article <4D6840D4.8010002 at snarc.net>, Evan Koblentz writes: > Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important > figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. Importance aside, people earn respect, they don't get to demand it. I don't care how damned important you are if you're an ass. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 14:09:50 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:09:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <57254.1397.qm@web121613.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 2/28/11, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer > To: "cctalk" > Date: Monday, February 28, 2011, 2:49 PM > > In article , > Paxton Hoag > writes: > > > Cheap Altos V terminal if you can pick it up. shipping > expensive > > > > 140517031868 > > Altos V-H Serial ASCII terminal > > Anything interesting about this terminal? Its late > enough in the game > that its enclosure is really standard (just barely bigger > than the > tube). Does it do any graphics or anything else > interesting? I have one. It's a rebadged Wyse. Nice terminal, but nothing outstanding about it. I don't remember if the firmware is different or not. -Ian From g-wright at att.net Mon Feb 28 14:13:09 2011 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:13:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer In-Reply-To: <4D6BFD62.9050506@neurotica.com> References: <4D6BFD62.9050506@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <77294.71071.qm@web83811.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ From: Dave McGuire To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 11:54:10 AM Subject: Re: Altos terminal on ebay and an odd japanese computer On 2/28/11 2:49 PM, Richard wrote: >> Cheap Altos V terminal if you can pick it up. shipping expensive >> >> 140517031868 >> Altos V-H Serial ASCII terminal > > Anything interesting about this terminal? Its late enough in the game > that its enclosure is really standard (just barely bigger than the > tube). Does it do any graphics or anything else interesting? It looks to me like a rebadged Wyse 50 or 60. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL - That is what they are. I have 2, both Wyse 50 is think. They have Altos logo on both the Keyboard and terminal and are Altos Tan in color. - Jerry From blkline at attglobal.net Mon Feb 28 14:26:47 2011 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:26:47 -0500 Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> <4D6BFD64.3070107@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4D6C0507.2070603@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/28/2011 03:01 PM, Richard wrote: >> There are many people in the history of the world >> and the history of tech whose work I respect even if they're jerks. > > That's your choice. You have to separate the work from the person. There are many people whose WORK I respect but who I have no respect for as a person. Take one of my cardiac surgeons, for example. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFNbAUHCFu3bIiwtTARAqioAKCJCy64wsA4ctJ2vaP16MsPk50v0gCeNcvB KgTAh40EJPigsSsg9ExkHv8= =jD01 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Feb 28 14:51:59 2011 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:51:59 -0000 Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <56FE0577E0E24736A51AFB7B561E7808@RODSDEVSYSTEM> References: <56FE0577E0E24736A51AFB7B561E7808@RODSDEVSYSTEM> Message-ID: <02a601cbd789$59743330$0c5c9990$@ntlworld.com> There has been talk on and off of producing a QBus board with an FPGA and an SD interface to make an RQDX-3 emulator (or anything else I suppose). That is something that would be really interesting to do, but perhaps it would be possible to create an FPGA board that implemented the ST506 interface instead. Either would be great projects as I too suffer from a dearth of RD53s and RD54s. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood > Sent: 28 February 2011 08:51 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' > Subject: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > Hi > Thank you for a most interesting reply. Despite having been around when > the transitions between interface types happened, there was a lot I did not > know. The fact that the ST506 interface was derived from 8" floppy > technology was news to me. > > I collect DEC equipment and all of the MFM drives DEC sold were OEM > badge jobs. There were three DEC RQDX MFM controllers I know of. I have a > RQDX-1 and a couple of RQDX-3's. I have never seen a RQDX-2. All three are > for the Q-bus. > > I have a few RD-53's but only one is reliable. The main logic board in an RD- > 53(Micropolis 1325) has a 8051 and a bunch of other stuff. I can't see how > an interface board with an 8051 is regarded as dumb. > > I am not short of SCSI drives in assorted physical sizes, capacities and > interface types. I also have a couple of third party Q-Bus SCSI controllers. > > Stating the obvious the above only applies to PDP11's. Yes I know you can > put a Q-bus controller in a Q-bus VAX. > > So what's my problem? As with many collectors my goal is to get the > systems back to the state they were in when they left the factory. I start > with the model designation on the box label and try to restore back to what > that defined. > > I'll stretch a point insofar as I'll use any MFM drive that DEC bought the OEM > version of regardless of if came from DEC. Even allowing for that MFM > drives that RQDX controllers can handle are getting scarce. > > So the problem is how the make an RQDX controller think its talking to an > RD series MFM drive when it isn't. > > > > Rod Smallwood (G8DGR) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Andrew Lynch > Sent: 28 February 2011 00:18 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > > Hi Rod, > > > I do not think an MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) to IDE bridge board is feasible. > The SCSI-1 and IDE interfaces are purely digital and the drives are intelligent > enough to abstract much of the realtime complexities of communicating > with the hard drive itself. As a result the bridge board between the SCSI-1 > and IDE is relatively simple and a basic Z80 embedded controller is able to > accomplish the data transfer relatively easily. It is well suited for a > community hobbyist project like the SCSI to IDE/SD bridge board we are > working on at Vintage-Computer.com forums. > > > MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) interfaces are a high speed extension of the > Shugart floppy drive interface with some additional signals. It is a hard > realtime interface and low level way to communicate with the hard drive. > As a result it would require an extremely sophisticated high speed controller > to interpret the signals to and from the MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412). A simple > Z80 or microcontroller based controller would not be able to accomplish the > task in my opinion. It may be possible but I believe it would be an expensive > commercial device and probably quite rare. > > > The SCSI-1 to/from IDE/SD project is a hobbyist community project and I > think would be quite helpful to the wide array of legacy/vintage/classic > devices which use SCSI-1 drives. So far, I have heard from owners of the > obvious microcomputers like Atari, Amiga, Apple Mac, Sun workstations, > DEC, etc. However many other devices used SCSI-1 devices such as > synthesizers, a variety of test and lab equipment (?), sewing machines (?), > photocopiers (?), and other devices I would have never suspected used SCSI- > 1 drives. > > > At the moment, there are 6 builders with the prototype PCBs but none have > reported a working build yet. The parts are very common and the design > uses only "hobbyist friendly" construction for easy assembly. However, the > software still needs to be written which should be largely reuse of existing > Z80 code from existing N8VEM projects. If you or anyone else is interested > in working on the project please contact me. I still have 4 remaining > prototype PCBs. My goal is to get this project up and running before the > SCSI-1 drives become difficult to obtain such as 100 TPI floppy drives, > MFM/RLL (ST506/ST412) hard drives, and other uncommon storage medias. > > > All of the technical information on the project is available at the N8VEM > wiki. It will be free/open and publicly posted for community benefit like the > rest of the N8VEM boards. Please read the existing technical documentation > before critiquing the design. > > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder > sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20 > to%20IDE%20prototypes> > ¶m=MINI%20SCSI%20to%20IDE%20prototypes > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > > > > > > SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > > Rod Smallwood rodsmallwood at btconnect.com > 1%20to%20IDE%20and%2 > 0SD%20project&In-Reply- > To=%3C5177DAA49B624EFD819C07F9E41EFFA8%40RODSDEVSYSTE > M%3E> > Tue Feb 22 02:36:34 CST 2011 > > * Previous message: GSX > > porting project > * Next message: SCSI -1 to > IDE > and SD project > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] > > [ February/thread.html#297263> > thread ] [ subject ] > February/subject.html#297263> > [ author ] > February/author.html#297263> > > _____ > > > Hi > This looks interesting. As collector of DEC systems my need is slightly > different insofar as due to the rapid disappearance of ST506 (MFM) drives I > need to make say an IDE drive look like a an ST506 drive to a DEC MFM > controller. > > Whilst your SCSI to IDE is nice I'm not short of SCSI drives. However with > your experience you might like to comment on if you think a DEC MFM > controller to IDE drive converter box is feasible. > > > Regards > > Rod Smallwood > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech- > bounces at classiccmp.org > ] On Behalf Of > Andrew Lynch > Sent: 21 February 2011 14:39 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project > > Hi! Several weeks ago there was a discussion on CCTALK about a free/open > SCSI to IDE and SD project. I designed a PCB using the Z53C80 and a Z80 > with RAM/ROM/UART/IDE and SD. There is a prototype available waiting > for some interested builders to take on the project. > > > > As far as I know none of the builders have a completed unit although I think > if we had at least one working unit the project would make some real > progress. I have four remaining SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards so if > anyone would like to join the project as a software developer please let me > know. I believe much of the software can be reused from previous N8VEM > and/or other free/open software projects. > > > > http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/page/35044530/PCB-Inventory > > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > _____ > > size=2 width="100%" align=center> > > * Previous message: GSX > > porting project > * Next message: SCSI -1 to > IDE > and SD project > * Messages sorted by: [ date ] > > [ thread ] February/thread.html#297263> [ > February/subject.html#297263> > subject ] [ author ] > February/author.html#297263> > > _____ > > More information > about the cctalk mailing list > > > > > > > > _____ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 15:05:22 2011 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:05:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <02a601cbd789$59743330$0c5c9990$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <511826.97503.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> On the subject of disk interface converters, I do believe an MFM to IDE bridge to be possible. Philip Pemberton has already proven it's possible to interface an MFM type device to a modern microcontroller - albiet the other way around, with his DiskFerret project. The MFM interface is very different from SCSI and IDE, true, but with modern microcontrollers, the data rate should be achievable. Sure, the MFM interface is primitive. You've got the analog-ish data stream from the disk and some stepper motor drive signals, but you can translate those with a microcontroller, have it request the block from the IDE device, buffer it, and stream it out to the host. I think it's doable. Just, more complicated than, say, SCSI to IDE. SCSI to IDE is a great project, but at least, for me, I've got plenty of SCSI drives. In fact, I probably have more SCSI disks than IDE. MFM, not so much. -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 28 15:32:16 2011 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:32:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ted Nelson interview In-Reply-To: References: <4D6729D9.3000407@snarc.net> <4D6840D4.8010002@snarc.net> Message-ID: <20110228132856.J41614@shell.lmi.net> > > Granted, he came off as a bit arrogant. But he's still an important > > figure in computer history, and he should be respected by us. On Mon, 28 Feb 2011, Richard wrote: > Importance aside, people earn respect, they don't get to demand it. I > don't care how damned important you are if you're an ass. It is possible to respect or be impressed by the WORK or ACCOMPLISHMENTS, without needing to like or respect the person. Many of the greatest geniuses are asses. Yes, Ted has a large ego. But, once you get him to talk about something other than himself, he is amazing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 28 17:21:05 2011 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:21:05 -0800 Subject: MFM to IDE was: RE: SCSI -1 to IDE and SD project In-Reply-To: <511826.97503.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <02a601cbd789$59743330$0c5c9990$@ntlworld.com>, <511826.97503.qm@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6BBD61.9810.138D236@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Feb 2011 at 13:05, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > On the subject of disk interface converters, I do believe an MFM to > IDE bridge to be possible. Philip Pemberton has already proven it's > possible to interface an MFM type device to a modern microcontroller - > albiet the other way around, with his DiskFerret project. The MFM > interface is very different from SCSI and IDE, true, but with modern > microcontrollers, the data rate should be achievable. > > Sure, the MFM interface is primitive. You've got the analog-ish data > stream from the disk and some stepper motor drive signals, but you can > translate those with a microcontroller, have it request the block from > the IDE device, buffer it, and stream it out to the host. I think it's > doable. Just, more complicated than, say, SCSI to IDE. There already exist floppy drive emulators that take an SD card (or other storage device) and interact with the floppy controller. Heck, a FlashPath drive does this quite handily with little more than some SRAM, an AVR and a CPLD, conversing with with the floppy drive head via a small coil. You could certainly simulate an MFM hard drive running at 10x the clock rate, using more horsepower (perhaps a DSP or even an FPGA?). The hardware shouldn't be too difficult; the programming will probably be the bulk of the effort. But what would someone pay for such a beast and how many could be sold? FWIW, --Chuck From bdamer at digitalspace.com Mon Feb 28 11:27:36 2011 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:27:36 -0500 Subject: Giant Mac collection available... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LHC00FUD8I08HR0@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> Folks there is a fellow offering a giant Mac collection which he hopes to find a buyer for: http://web.me.com/macabbott/macabb.com/Mac_Museum_Photos.html anyone have any recommendations here? Bruce From bdamer at digitalspace.com Mon Feb 28 12:36:30 2011 From: bdamer at digitalspace.com (Bruce Damer) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:36:30 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z-100 sought In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0LHC00FUZBOU0240@mta3.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> CC team, Martin Howard is putting together a display for the Pentagon and seeks (to purchase) a Zenith Z-100, like the following: http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/zenith-100-original/index.html If anyone has a source for this please contact him directly at: martinhoward at sympatico.ca 416-690-7432 Bruce