From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 08:03:04 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 14:03:04 +0000
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 December 2011 05:32, Marcin Wichary <mwichary at gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting ? I personally found it disappointing on many levels. Instead
> of enumerating them all here, I strongly encourage to listen to the
> fantastic episode of the *Hypercritical* podcast, which splendidly
> enumerates the many flaws on the book (most of which I agree with):
> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42
>
> If you haven?t had enough, the next episode tells even more:
> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43

Are there transcripts available, at all? Life is too short for
listening to podcasts...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 08:41:47 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 08:41:47 -0600
Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated]
In-Reply-To: <9CBF5347-B3D2-45E5-A470-5F80D4DA04A9@gmail.com>
References: <1322244596.12850.3.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net>
 <4ED641D0.5080800@indiana.edu> <4ED6DB34.30407@gmail.com>
 <9CBF5347-B3D2-45E5-A470-5F80D4DA04A9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7922B.8020501@gmail.com>

David Riley wrote:
> On Nov 30, 2011, at 8:41 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> 
>> Brian Wheeler wrote:
>>> I've updated the list below, and I've got a question for everyone. 
>>> So, why am I not getting any bites on the machines?  Time of year?
>>> Economy?  Priced too high?  Aliens?  Everyone already has one?
>> Hmm, I did take note of the VT220, but it's absolutely the worst time
>> of year for me - several family birthdays, Christmas gifts, huge
>> winter heating bills etc.; it gets a lot better come March or April.
> 
> I haven't had to turn on the heat yet this winter because of my
> machines... don't know if that should be bothering me or not.

Hmm, we have about 15kW of electric heat in the house - I wouldn't mind 
replacing that with something vintage. The only downside is that its supply 
is load-controlled by the power company, so subject to dropping out without 
warning. I suppose I could aim for something with core memory and no 
flying-head drives :-)

cheers

Jules


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 09:05:55 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 10:05:55 -0500
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGUsO5FMKaFqYkC31g7G0PuEc3OPZVGQG8Gvf6Lc7n6WkA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 9:03 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Are there transcripts available, at all? Life is too short for
> listening to podcasts...
>

Multitask! I can write unit tests while listening to podcasts :)


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Thu Dec  1 09:23:20 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 10:23:20 -0500
Subject: Steve Jobs
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <080D9E61372147E4A1E6E443213F9080@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 9:03 AM
Subject: Re: Steve Jobs


> On 1 December 2011 05:32, Marcin Wichary <mwichary at gmail.com> wrote:
>> Interesting ? I personally found it disappointing on many levels. Instead
>> of enumerating them all here, I strongly encourage to listen to the
>> fantastic episode of the *Hypercritical* podcast, which splendidly
>> enumerates the many flaws on the book (most of which I agree with):
>> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42
>>
>> If you haven?t had enough, the next episode tells even more:
>> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43
>
> Are there transcripts available, at all? Life is too short for
> listening to podcasts...
>
>
No different then listening to the radio while you work on something.




From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  1 09:30:08 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 07:30:08 -0800
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED79D80.4000506@bitsavers.org>

On 11/30/11 9:32 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote:
> Interesting ? I personally found it disappointing on many levels.

He drank the Jobs Cool Aid. The main takeaway was he even more of an
asshole than I already knew.

It appears he never spoke to anyone at Apple below vice president
and even then I doubt he talked to Rubenstein very much. It did
explain why I hated working there after he came back, along with
what he did to Apple's corporate culture.

The whole "Apple University" thing, training young managers in the "ways
of Steve" really bothers me.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/oct/06/business/la-fi-apple-university-20111006







From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 09:41:14 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 10:41:14 -0500
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <080D9E61372147E4A1E6E443213F9080@dell8300>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <080D9E61372147E4A1E6E443213F9080@dell8300>
Message-ID: <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 10:23 AM, TeoZ wrote:

>> Are there transcripts available, at all? Life is too short for
>> listening to podcasts...
>> 
>> 
> No different then listening to the radio while you work on something.

I can't do that for the most part, actually.  Not with talk radio or anything I actually want to listen closely to (music I already know makes for fine background noise).  When I'm programming or reading, I end up getting distracted and missing whatever was on the show, so I can pretty much only do it when soldering things or driving.

My theory is that with reading and programming, the language centers of my brain are already occupied and do a rather poor job of timesharing.  I can't listen to/participate in a conversation and program at the same time (though I can occasionally fake it with my wife :-)).

- Dave


From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec  1 10:14:07 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 08:14:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <4ED79D80.4000506@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Dec 1,
 11 07:30:08 am"
Message-ID: <201112011614.pB1GE7X9013030@floodgap.com>

> It appears he never spoke to anyone at Apple below vice president
> and even then I doubt he talked to Rubenstein very much. It did
> explain why I hated working there after he came back, along with
> what he did to Apple's corporate culture.

Al, I think of you every time I pull up OpenFirmware. :D

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Condense soup, not books! --------------------------------------------------


From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec  1 10:17:32 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 08:17:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated]
In-Reply-To: <4ED7922B.8020501@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 1,
 11 08:41:47 am"
Message-ID: <201112011617.pB1GHWUg003472@floodgap.com>

> > I haven't had to turn on the heat yet this winter because of my
> > machines... don't know if that should be bothering me or not.
> 
> Hmm, we have about 15kW of electric heat in the house - I wouldn't mind 
> replacing that with something vintage. The only downside is that its supply 
> is load-controlled by the power company, so subject to dropping out without 
> warning.

That's terribly inconvenient, especially if you run home servers. On average
this house uses about 30kW/h minimum to power and cool the server room. The
problem is the house is 2400 sqft and in a very elongated L-shaped floor plan,
so it is hard to distribute the heat to other places efficiently. In my old
one-bedroom apartment, I never had to use the heater. On the other hand, this
house is about 1000' higher in elevation and closer to the mountains.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. -- H. H. Munro ----


From blkline at attglobal.net  Thu Dec  1 11:25:25 2011
From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:25:25 -0500
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <080D9E61372147E4A1E6E443213F9080@dell8300>
 <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7B885.30802@attglobal.net>

On 12/01/2011 10:41 AM, David Riley wrote:
> I can't listen to/participate in a conversation and program at the
> same time (though I can occasionally fake it with my wife :-))

I hope that she doesn't read this list!

Barry



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec  1 12:06:47 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 10:06:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <E1RVUtT-0000oR-8c@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RVUtT-0000oR-8c@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20111201100001.K16443@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011, Richard wrote:
> What's the best way to do this?
> Re: Archiving ST-506 drives
> I believe I have vintage PCs with ISA slots and ST-506 hard drive
> controllers, so that may be an option.
> However, the drives I want to archive are not from a PC system, but
> have the ST-506 electrical interface.

You might actually find it EASIER to bring up the correct machine.

PC controllers are NOT very versatile.  XT ones are ROM based, and can't
even handle 0 V 1 based sector numbering!  AT ones are better, but still
not very configuarable.

DiscFerrett should be able to read them!




From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 12:42:06 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 18:42:06 +0000
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <080D9E61372147E4A1E6E443213F9080@dell8300>
 <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEvvJQOB0KQK4xUekEcFZoq+P+doOm2qm=7MdSqDEWRfQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 1 December 2011 15:41, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 1, 2011, at 10:23 AM, TeoZ wrote:
>
>>> Are there transcripts available, at all? Life is too short for
>>> listening to podcasts...
>>>
>> No different then listening to the radio while you work on something.
>
> I can't do that for the most part, actually. ?Not with talk radio or anything I actually want to listen closely to (music I already know makes for fine background noise). ?When I'm programming or reading, I end up getting distracted and missing whatever was on the show, so I can pretty much only do it when soldering things or driving.
>
> My theory is that with reading and programming, the language centers of my brain are already occupied and do a rather poor job of timesharing. ?I can't listen to/participate in a conversation and program at the same time (though I can occasionally fake it with my wife :-)).

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to say. And the driving
part doesn't feature for me, as I don't have a car and never have had
since I got a drivers' licence at age 37. Nor, come to that, does the
wife part...


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  1 13:03:05 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:03:05 -0700
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com>
 <080D9E61372147E4A1E6E443213F9080@dell8300>
 <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RWBuU-0002LS-1w@shell.xmission.com>


In article <517EA5DC-9173-43F4-9AC1-831E388B53F0 at gmail.com>,
    David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> writes:

> My theory is that with reading and programming, the language centers of
> my brain are already occupied and do a rather poor job of timesharing.

Seconded
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec  1 13:16:52 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 19:16:52 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Storing cables
In-Reply-To: <48222C4D-040C-4F23-8E08-69BE29D30330@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Nov 30, 11 05:16:21 pm
Message-ID: <m1RWC7v-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On Nov 30, 2011, at 3:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> >> :-)  We could call you Milligna, the well-known typing errro.
> > 
> > Is a Milligan 10^-3 gans? 
> 
> No, but a milliHelen is the power required to launch one ship.
> 

I thought a helen was the unit of beauty, and that a millihelen was a the 
amounot of beauty needed to launch one ship :-)

In any case, when I was explaining the operation of a procesor (probably 
that in the HP9800) to a friemd, I pointed out that 5*10^-7 bicycles is 
one microcycle.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec  1 13:29:12 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 19:29:12 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEL0mTk2gPvgTbeCQS=ORqMZq6-YkLP-7GftwFjhPoJ4g@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 1, 11 02:03:04 pm
Message-ID: <m1RWCJq-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 1 December 2011 05:32, Marcin Wichary <mwichary at gmail.com> wrote:
> > Interesting =96 I personally found it disappointing on many levels. Ins=
> tead
> > of enumerating them all here, I strongly encourage to listen to the
> > fantastic episode of the *Hypercritical* podcast, which splendidly
> > enumerates the many flaws on the book (most of which I agree with):
> > http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42
> >
> > If you haven=92t had enough, the next episode tells even more:
> > http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43
> 
> Are there transcripts available, at all? Life is too short for
> listening to podcasts...

Or for those of us with the facilities to read test but not listen to 
podcasts...

-tony


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec  1 13:53:12 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 11:53:12 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Nov 30, at 12:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> MFM drives are not portable across controller models.  And at least
>> sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given  
>> model of
>> controller.  Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the  
>> cable
>> to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits.
>
> Actually, it's analogue in the time domain

Not really. The pulses or flux transitions from the disk are in  
discrete time slots relative to each other, albeit with some  
fluctuation due to physical reality, but that fluctuation is not part  
of the intended information content.

It is not like pulse-position-modulation or pulse-width-modulation  
where the intended information is represented by a continuous value  
('analog') of the time between two events (edges).

The disc-ferret/cat-weasel/etc. could be said to do a digitally- 
sampled-analog-interpretation of those discrete time slots for the  
sake of helping with data interpretation and recovery.

> , but only 2 voltage levels.

> The circuitry tconvert the signal from the read head toa digital  
> signal
> is in the drive (the read amplifier, comparator, monostable, etc).  
> What
> uou get at the interface conenctor is a stram of pulses, the leading
> edges of which correspond to magnetic transitions on the disk. The
> controller has to covert those pulses into parallel words, recognise
> sector markers, and the like.
>
> When writign, it's muchte same dviision. The controller takes words  
> from
> the host system and serialises them. It also controls when to start/ 
> stop
> writing on the disk. The interface, again, is a digital pulse  
> stream, the
> conversion from that to the head drive signals is done in the drive.
>
> -tony



From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Thu Dec  1 13:55:27 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 19:55:27 +0000
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>

On 01/12/11 04:03, Tom wrote:
> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote:
>> m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a
>> problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here.
>
> As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to
> what? Diff?) as well.

All this talk of SCSI has piqued my curiosity... maybe it's time for 
another product...

Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in 
hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected 
to a SCSI bus?
Perhaps even with the option of emulating SCSI CD-ROM drives (including 
those pesky 512-byte block drives), or even multiple devices at a time 
("this partition contains a CD image and is SCSI dev 5, this one is a 
1GB hard drive on dev 4, and this is a 100MB read-only HDD on dev 6").

Obviously device IDs would be fully configurable (so you could make it 
pretend to be a Quantum Bigfoot or Seagate Cheetah if you needed to). 
Multi-LUN and Multi-Device might have to be (low cost) pay-for options, 
though...

"Answers on a self-addressed email, folks!"

Cheers,
-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  1 14:04:37 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:04:37 -0800
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>

On 11/30/11 9:32 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote:

> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42

> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43


my god, do AUDIO EDITING before you put these out.

1:42 minutes with maybe 30 minutes worth listening to.




From hexsane at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 14:10:33 2011
From: hexsane at gmail.com (Matthew Hudson)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 14:10:33 -0600
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CAOegkGvDpfs9rA2_Pre5h-R7EpRan6_dKdjBLkKzXN_bnwK6hA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from-IDE-drive-converter&highlight=SCSI

-Matt

On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Philip Pemberton
<classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>wrote:

> On 01/12/11 04:03, Tom wrote:
>
>> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote:
>>
>>> m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a
>>> problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here.
>>>
>>
>> As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to
>> what? Diff?) as well.
>>
>
> All this talk of SCSI has piqued my curiosity... maybe it's time for
> another product...
>
> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in hard
> disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a
> SCSI bus?
> Perhaps even with the option of emulating SCSI CD-ROM drives (including
> those pesky 512-byte block drives), or even multiple devices at a time
> ("this partition contains a CD image and is SCSI dev 5, this one is a 1GB
> hard drive on dev 4, and this is a 100MB read-only HDD on dev 6").
>
> Obviously device IDs would be fully configurable (so you could make it
> pretend to be a Quantum Bigfoot or Seagate Cheetah if you needed to).
> Multi-LUN and Multi-Device might have to be (low cost) pay-for options,
> though...
>
> "Answers on a self-addressed email, folks!"
>
> Cheers,
> --
> Phil.
> classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 14:12:47 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 15:12:47 -0500
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:

> On 2011 Nov 30, at 12:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>> MFM drives are not portable across controller models.  And at least
>>> sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given model of
>>> controller.  Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the cable
>>> to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits.
>> 
>> Actually, it's analogue in the time domain
> 
> Not really. The pulses or flux transitions from the disk are in discrete time slots relative to each other, albeit with some fluctuation due to physical reality, but that fluctuation is not part of the intended information content.
> 
> It is not like pulse-position-modulation or pulse-width-modulation where the intended information is represented by a continuous value ('analog') of the time between two events (edges).

I'm pretty sure what Tony meant was that it's coming off an analog amplification chain that gives you flux transition outputs; it's not quantized by any digital circuitry.  Thus it's analog in the time domain and not synchronous to any discrete clock.

The one thing you *do* need to be careful about is that you oversample enough that the time domain aliasing doesn't give you wrong results (i.e. if your data rate is 30 MHz and your sampling clock is 33 MHz, you will have problems).

If the sampling hardware is running at 100MHz, you should be fine.

- Dave



- Dave




From geoffr at zipcon.net  Thu Dec  1 14:19:07 2011
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:19:07 -0800
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <CAOegkGvDpfs9rA2_Pre5h-R7EpRan6_dKdjBLkKzXN_bnwK6hA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFD213B.57819%geoffr@zipcon.net>

On 12/1/11 12:10 PM, "Matthew Hudson" <hexsane at gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from-ID
> E-drive-converter&highlight=SCSI
> 
> -Matt
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Philip Pemberton
>> <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>wrote:
>> 
-snip-
>>> 
>> 
>> All this talk of SCSI has piqued my curiosity... maybe it's time for
>> another product...
>> 
>> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in hard
>> disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a
>> SCSI bus?
>> Perhaps even with the option of emulating SCSI CD-ROM drives (including
>> those pesky 512-byte block drives), or even multiple devices at a time
>> ("this partition contains a CD image and is SCSI dev 5, this one is a 1GB
>> hard drive on dev 4, and this is a 100MB read-only HDD on dev 6").
>> 
>> Obviously device IDs would be fully configurable (so you could make it
>> pretend to be a Quantum Bigfoot or Seagate Cheetah if you needed to).
>> Multi-LUN and Multi-Device might have to be (low cost) pay-for options,
>> though...
>> 
>> "Answers on a self-addressed email, folks!"
>> 

Actually, a low cost device based on a microcontroller would be sweet.  I am
assembling one of those prototype SCSI<->IDE controllers and so far I'm into
it around $30 in parts beyond the board.




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 14:21:08 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 15:21:08 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <DE152EEC-F84B-4281-819A-9419D85BC551@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 2:55 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> On 01/12/11 04:03, Tom wrote:
>> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote:
>>> m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a
>>> problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here.
>> 
>> As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to
>> what? Diff?) as well.
> 
> All this talk of SCSI has piqued my curiosity... maybe it's time for another product...
> 
> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a SCSI bus?
> Perhaps even with the option of emulating SCSI CD-ROM drives (including those pesky 512-byte block drives), or even multiple devices at a time ("this partition contains a CD image and is SCSI dev 5, this one is a 1GB hard drive on dev 4, and this is a 100MB read-only HDD on dev 6").
> 
> Obviously device IDs would be fully configurable (so you could make it pretend to be a Quantum Bigfoot or Seagate Cheetah if you needed to). Multi-LUN and Multi-Device might have to be (low cost) pay-for options, though...

I'd be interested in it as well as interested in developing such a device; I was thinking about it just yesterday because of my dwindling stash of real SCSI hard drives, all of which are pretty noisy.

My primary "catch" with all this is the I/O, as usual; real 5v SCSI transceivers are getting hard (and expensive) to come by, and the drive requirements are 48mA, if I recall, which is a tall order for a lot of translation devices.  Some of the signals are open-collector, if recollection serves, but quite a few are actively driven.  Not impossible, certainly.

I come at it from an FPGA perspective, so something to bridge <=3.3v to 5v is necessary. I would advise against what they recommended on the vintage-computer forum, which is to use NOS or salvaged 5380, 53c90, 53c94, etc. chips; those are getting hard to find in any quantity without resorting to scrappers.

Short answer: I'm interested in developing my own solution with an FPGA and a small micro doing housekeeping and/or transaction-level logic.  If you're interested in a collaboration, I'm interested; otherwise, I'm going to make one of my own soon because my disks are all dying.

- Dave




From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Thu Dec  1 14:24:17 2011
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 12:24:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Thu, 12/1/11, Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote:

> 
> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint
> of a 3.5in hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash
> cards to be connected to a SCSI bus?

Maybe. I personally don't see the need though, as SCSI hard drives are so incredibly common that I don't see the need to make replacements for them. Maybe in ten years, but at the moment, SCSI disks are plentiful.

What *would* be incredibly useful (albeit much more complicated) would be a modern replacement for an ST506 type drive - something that is getting harder to come by.

-Ian


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  1 14:34:50 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:34:50 -0800
Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated]
In-Reply-To: <201112011617.pB1GHWUg003472@floodgap.com>
References: <201112011617.pB1GHWUg003472@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7E4EA.9050402@brouhaha.com>

Cameron Kaiser wrote:
 > On average this house uses about 30kW/h minimum to
 > power and cool the server room.

Is that 30kWh/h (i.e., 30kW)?  That seems like quite a lot for a 
residence; it's 250A at 120VAC, for heat dissipation of 102 kBTU/hr.  
30kWh/day would seem more believable.



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  1 14:40:39 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:40:39 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED7E647.5070203@brouhaha.com>

Tony Duell wrote (about the read data signals of the ST506/412 drive 
interface):
 > Actually, it's analogue in the time domain

Brent Hilpert wrote:
 > Not really. The pulses or flux transitions from the disk are in 
discrete time slots relative to each other,

When writing, sure.

 > albeit with some fluctuation due to physical reality, but that 
fluctuation is not part of the intended information content.

No, but it's part of what you actually get when you read data from the 
drive, so therefore the raw read data at the interface is not 
time-quantized, which is what Tony said.  It is part of the job of the 
data separator to time-quantize it back to discrete bit (and clock 
windows), and doing a good job of that is extremely non-trivial.

What *is* trivial is to time-quantize it to some window that is 
significantly smaller than the bit window (i.e., higher sampling 
frequency), which is what the Catweasel and Diskferret do.  At that 
point it is time-quantized but not fit into bit windows, so data 
separation is still required.



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec  1 15:04:11 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 13:04:11 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2011 Dec 1, at 12:12 PM, David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 1, 2011, at 2:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>
>> On 2011 Nov 30, at 12:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>>> MFM drives are not portable across controller models.  And at least
>>>> sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given  
>>>> model of
>>>> controller.  Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up  
>>>> the cable
>>>> to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits.
>>>
>>> Actually, it's analogue in the time domain
>>
>> Not really. The pulses or flux transitions from the disk are in  
>> discrete time slots relative to each other, albeit with some  
>> fluctuation due to physical reality, but that fluctuation is not  
>> part of the intended information content.
>>
>> It is not like pulse-position-modulation or pulse-width-modulation  
>> where the intended information is represented by a continuous  
>> value ('analog') of the time between two events (edges).
>
> I'm pretty sure what Tony meant was that it's coming off an analog  
> amplification chain that gives you flux transition outputs; it's  
> not quantized by any digital circuitry.  Thus it's analog in the  
> time domain and not synchronous to any discrete clock.

(As others have mentioned (including Tony), it is quantized in  
amplitude (to two states) by drive read circuitry.)

In time, it was quantized when it was recorded and retains that  
quantisation when read (note I said discrete time slots relative to  
each other).

You might also note the part of my message you cut in your reply:
"The disc-ferret/cat-weasel/etc. could be said to do a digitally- 
sampled-analog-interpretation of those discrete time slots for the  
sake of helping with data interpretation and recovery."

One can do an analog assessment of a digital logic voltage level  
(e.g. 3.00V vs 3.02V) but that doesn't make the signal analog.

While there is some room for a little looseness in phrasing when  
dealing with (signals from) a physical medium, it's still a stretch  
to call the disk signal 'analog in the time domain', esp. when the  
phrase has a firmer meaning in other applications.


> The one thing you *do* need to be careful about is that you  
> oversample enough that the time domain aliasing doesn't give you  
> wrong results (i.e. if your data rate is 30 MHz and your sampling  
> clock is 33 MHz, you will have problems).
> If the sampling hardware is running at 100MHz, you should be fine.
> - Dave



From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec  1 15:15:10 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 13:15:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated]
In-Reply-To: <4ED7E4EA.9050402@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Dec 1,
 11 12:34:50 pm"
Message-ID: <201112012115.pB1LFBuA015006@floodgap.com>

>  > On average this house uses about 30kW/h minimum to
>  > power and cool the server room.
> 
> Is that 30kWh/h (i.e., 30kW)?  That seems like quite a lot for a 
> residence; it's 250A at 120VAC, for heat dissipation of 102 kBTU/hr.  
> 30kWh/day would seem more believable.

Sorry, yes, 30kWh/day. *slapself* Most of that is the quad G5 and
the POWER6, which together pull around 550W (more if they are running
at full tilt).

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The world is coming to an end. Log off now. --------------------------------


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  1 15:23:18 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 13:23:18 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
 <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>

Brent Hilpert wrote:
 > In time, it was quantized when it was recorded and retains that 
quantisation when read
 > (note I said discrete time slots relative to each other).

No, it doesn't.  The drive and media shift the peaks around, such that 
they only have an approximate relation to the "discrete time slots 
relative to each other" in which they were recorded.

 > While there is some room for a little looseness in phrasing when 
dealing with (signals from)
 > a physical medium, it's still a stretch to call the disk signal 
'analog in the time domain', esp.
 > when the phrase has a firmer meaning in other applications.

It's not at all a stretch.  The flux transitions definitely do NOT have 
the same timing as the bits that were written, due to both magnetic and 
mechanical effects.  The timing is changed enough that it is actually 
quite difficult to recover the original timing.  If the flux 
transitions, and thus the read data pulse leading edges on the 
interface, were still time-quantized, this would be trivial.

The fact that there were aftermarket improved data separators sold for 
the TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface, because of the unreliability of 
the built-in data separator of the FD1771, is one indication of just how 
non-time-quantized the read data is.  A great deal of research went into 
developing data separators that could restore the time quantization with 
reasonable reliability; there are many published papers on this topic, 
and many patents.

Eric





From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  1 15:59:11 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:59:11 -0700
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1RWEet-0001Qs-TH@shell.xmission.com>


In article <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic at web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>,
    Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> writes:

> What *would* be incredibly useful (albeit much more complicated)
> would be a m odern replacement for an ST506 type drive - something that
> is getting harder to come by.

Yep, but running things from compact flash is going to be less moving
parts and less power and easier to swap around.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec  1 16:03:06 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:03:06 -0800
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>,
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7891A.6173.FCFEB9@cclist.sydex.com>

Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk

> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint  of a 
> 3.5in hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash  cards to > be connected to a SCSI bus?   

One of my customers has just such a setup on their E&S system.  I 
believe it's two adapters, SCSI-to-IDE and IDE-to-CF.

--Chuck



From alexeyt at freeshell.org  Thu Dec  1 16:20:57 2011
From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 22:20:57 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112012214050.17490@faeroes.freeshell.org>

On Thu, 1 Dec 2011, Al Kossow wrote:

> On 11/30/11 9:32 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote:
>
>> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/42
>
>> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43
>
> my god, do AUDIO EDITING before you put these out.
>
> 1:42 minutes with maybe 30 minutes worth listening to.

I'm pretty sure they're doing it on purpose, considering how much time 
they spend pausing unnaturally or talking about the show itself. I have no 
idea how this benefits them though... they're not squeezing in more 
messages from their sponsors or anything like that.

 			Alexey


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec  1 16:26:52 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 14:26:52 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
 <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <BAC714FF-DAAA-42CD-A4CD-07F545367A8B@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 1, at 1:23 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Brent Hilpert wrote:
> > In time, it was quantized when it was recorded and retains that  
> quantisation when read
> > (note I said discrete time slots relative to each other).
>
> No, it doesn't.  The drive and media shift the peaks around, such  
> that they only have an approximate relation to the "discrete time  
> slots relative to each other" in which they were recorded.
>
> > While there is some room for a little looseness in phrasing when  
> dealing with (signals from)
> > a physical medium, it's still a stretch to call the disk signal  
> 'analog in the time domain', esp.
> > when the phrase has a firmer meaning in other applications.
>
> It's not at all a stretch.  The flux transitions definitely do NOT  
> have the same timing as the bits that were written, due to both  
> magnetic and mechanical effects.  The timing is changed enough that  
> it is actually quite difficult to recover the original timing.  If  
> the flux transitions, and thus the read data pulse leading edges on  
> the interface, were still time-quantized, this would be trivial.
>
> The fact that there were aftermarket improved data separators sold  
> for the TRS-80 Model 1 Expansion Interface, because of the  
> unreliability of the built-in data separator of the FD1771, is one  
> indication of just how non-time-quantized the read data is.  A  
> great deal of research went into developing data separators that  
> could restore the time quantization with reasonable reliability;  
> there are many published papers on this topic, and many patents.

(In reply to this and your previous message)

I'd differ on that: it is still time-quantized on read even if the  
timing isn't quite the same as when it was written. The raw read data  
still comes in 'time chunks', able to be directly correlated to the  
raw written data. The data may not be quite the way you want it (it  
includes clock transitions) and you need a transformation to get it  
to the way you want, but that transformation is (or primarily is) a  
discrete process or transformation. That it is possible to produce a  
data-separator that recovers the data so reliably is exactly the point.

(Perhaps we have different concepts of what 'time-quantised' or  
simply 'quantised' means. While there are differences, one might ask  
the same question of an async serial signal for a simpler case to  
examine.)



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Thu Dec  1 16:53:39 2011
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 22:53:39 -0000
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <027c01ccb07c$12a24740$37e6d5c0$@ntlworld.com>



> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus
> Sent: 01 December 2011 20:24
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
> 
> --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote:
> 
> >
> > Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in
> > hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be
> > connected to a SCSI bus?
> 
> Maybe. I personally don't see the need though, as SCSI hard drives are so
> incredibly common that I don't see the need to make replacements for them.
> Maybe in ten years, but at the moment, SCSI disks are plentiful.
> 

That depends. I need SCSI disks that are less than 1GB, those are much
harder to find.


> What *would* be incredibly useful (albeit much more complicated) would be
> a modern replacement for an ST506 type drive - something that is getting
> harder to come by.

Definitely agree with this one. Emulating RD53 and RD54 would be great.

> 
> -Ian



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  1 16:58:36 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:58:36 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <BAC714FF-DAAA-42CD-A4CD-07F545367A8B@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
 <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>
 <BAC714FF-DAAA-42CD-A4CD-07F545367A8B@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED8069C.4090300@brouhaha.com>

On 12/01/2011 02:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
 > The data may not be quite the way you want it (it includes clock 
transitions)

I don't have an issue with that; that's the way it was written.

 > and you need a transformation to get it to the way you want, but that
 > transformation is (or primarily is) a discrete process or transformation.

That you can perform a process that takes non-time-quantized read data 
signal from the drive and by a "discrete process" produce a 
time-quantized output that is (usually) the same as the signal that was 
originally written does not in any way prove that the read data signal 
from the drive was time-quantized.

 > That it is possible to produce a data-separator that recovers the 
data so reliably is exactly the point.

That argument could be used to claim that the signal a V.32 modem 
receives over a telephone line is voltage-quantized, because you can 
sample it then apply a "discrete process" to reliably get the original 
data transmitted from the other end.

In both cases, if the channel signal was actually quantized (in the time 
domain for the magnetic disk, and in the amplitude domain for the 
modem), there wouldn't be any need for a "discrete process" the you 
describe.

 > (Perhaps we have different concepts of what 'time-quantised' or
 > simply 'quantised' means. While there are differences, one might
 > ask the same question of an async serial signal for a simpler case to 
examine.)

It appears that you've identified the reason we disagree.

I would argue that asynchronous (start/stop) serial as received is 
non-time-quantized, although the clock recovery is much simpler than 
with a magnetic disk because the channel does not distort the timing by 
more than a trivial amount in proportion to the transmit rate.  A UART 
does have to oversample the async receive data and use a decision 
process (generally based on detection of the leading edge of the start 
bit) to identify the appropriate bit cell boundaries to time-quantize 
the data.

A synchronous serial channel provided with an explicit clock signal is 
time quantized.

Eric



From a50mhzham at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 17:02:17 2011
From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 17:02:17 -0600
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <DE152EEC-F84B-4281-819A-9419D85BC551@gmail.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <DE152EEC-F84B-4281-819A-9419D85BC551@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ed8087f.8be6e70a.099a.ffffb207@mx.google.com>

SCSI drives are rare? I have a bunch. Came out of 
old Compaq servers. What am I bid?

I got 9gb, 18gb, maybe a few 36gb, maybe some 2gb 
and 4gb. I'd have to poke about.

I thought these things were common as dirt.


At 02:21 PM 12/1/2011, you wrote:
>On Dec 1, 2011, at 2:55 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>
> > On 01/12/11 04:03, Tom wrote:
> >> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote:
> >>> m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a
> >>> problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here.
> >>
> >> As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to
> >> what? Diff?) as well.
> >
> > All this talk of SCSI has piqued my 
> curiosity... maybe it's time for another product...
> >
> > Would anyone be interested in a device with 
> the footprint of a 3.5in hard disk drive, which 
> allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a SCSI bus?
> > Perhaps even with the option of emulating 
> SCSI CD-ROM drives (including those pesky 
> 512-byte block drives), or even multiple 
> devices at a time ("this partition contains a 
> CD image and is SCSI dev 5, this one is a 1GB 
> hard drive on dev 4, and this is a 100MB read-only HDD on dev 6").
> >
> > Obviously device IDs would be fully 
> configurable (so you could make it pretend to 
> be a Quantum Bigfoot or Seagate Cheetah if you 
> needed to). Multi-LUN and Multi-Device might 
> have to be (low cost) pay-for options, though...
>
>I'd be interested in it as well as interested in 
>developing such a device; I was thinking about 
>it just yesterday because of my dwindling stash 
>of real SCSI hard drives, all of which are pretty noisy.
>
>My primary "catch" with all this is the I/O, as 
>usual; real 5v SCSI transceivers are getting 
>hard (and expensive) to come by, and the drive 
>requirements are 48mA, if I recall, which is a 
>tall order for a lot of translation 
>devices.  Some of the signals are 
>open-collector, if recollection serves, but 
>quite a few are actively driven.  Not impossible, certainly.
>
>I come at it from an FPGA perspective, so 
>something to bridge <=3.3v to 5v is necessary. I 
>would advise against what they recommended on 
>the vintage-computer forum, which is to use NOS 
>or salvaged 5380, 53c90, 53c94, etc. chips; 
>those are getting hard to find in any quantity without resorting to scrappers.
>
>Short answer: I'm interested in developing my 
>own solution with an FPGA and a small micro 
>doing housekeeping and/or transaction-level 
>logic.  If you're interested in a collaboration, 
>I'm interested; otherwise, I'm going to make one 
>of my own soon because my disks are all dying.
>
>- Dave


591 . [Science] This book fills a much-needed 
gap. --Moses Hadas when he was asked to say 
something nice about a fellow scientist's new book.
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician 
? Registered Linux User 385531


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  1 17:13:36 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 15:13:36 -0800
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112012214050.17490@faeroes.freeshell.org>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112012214050.17490@faeroes.freeshell.org>
Message-ID: <4ED80A20.7080105@bitsavers.org>

On 12/1/11 2:20 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:

>>> http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43
>> 1:42 minutes with maybe 30 minutes worth listening to.
>
> I'm pretty sure they're doing it on purpose

To save others 1:42 of their time, there were only two interesting
things:

- he doesn't like Iverson as a biographer, he thought it should have
   been done by Robert Caro
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Broker

   lots of niddling points that Iverson didn't ask hard questions, didn't
   do enough original research, and the feeing that it was rushed to
   get it out before it was properly edited.

- there was a long discussion at the end about Jobs ignoring his kids
   with the justification that he was doing the world more good by spending
   the time creating 'great' products.






From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 17:16:15 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 21:16:15 -0200
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <DE152EEC-F84B-4281-819A-9419D85BC551@gmail.com>
 <4ed8087f.8be6e70a.099a.ffffb207@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <D686993CDA3F4ABB9D89CA18A64E0EDC@portajara>

>SCSI drives are rare? I have a bunch. Came out of old Compaq servers. What 
>am I bid?

    It depends on where you live. Here in Brazil, 50-pin SCSI devices have a 
big premium price because of sound equipment and old computers. 



From mwichary at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 17:37:31 2011
From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 15:37:31 -0800
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <4ED80A20.7080105@bitsavers.org>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112012214050.17490@faeroes.freeshell.org>
 <4ED80A20.7080105@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAGy1GDwggksq7sTpFmS2qJ9efN8sOiPALuo3UffN7eaNF_fWjA@mail.gmail.com>

There were more interesting points, I thought ? for example understanding
the industry being key to understanding Jobs, or ?Steve Jobs The Enemy Of
Success? ? so YMMV. The biographer?s name is Isaacson, not Iverson. It?s
true that the podcast rambles and goes back to earlier episodes in the
beginning with follow-ups, which I should?ve warned about. But the idea is
also that it?s a fun, enjoyable conversation, not an information-dense
get-to-the-point thing.

Siracusa mentioned Michael Malone?s *The Infinite Loop* which is also my
personal favourite take on Apple ? not just reporting facts, but trying to
understand the personalities of Apple?s creators, and just so much more
interesting to read as a piece of literature.

 Thu, Dec 1, 2011 at 3:13 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 12/1/11 2:20 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
>
>  http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/**43 <http://5by5.tv/hypercritical/43>
>>>>
>>> 1:42 minutes with maybe 30 minutes worth listening to.
>>>
>>
>> I'm pretty sure they're doing it on purpose
>>
>
> To save others 1:42 of their time, there were only two interesting
> things:
>
> - he doesn't like Iverson as a biographer, he thought it should have
>  been done by Robert Caro
>  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**The_Power_Broker<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_Broker>
>
>  lots of niddling points that Iverson didn't ask hard questions, didn't
>  do enough original research, and the feeing that it was rushed to
>  get it out before it was properly edited.
>
> - there was a long discussion at the end about Jobs ignoring his kids
>  with the justification that he was doing the world more good by spending
>  the time creating 'great' products.
>
>
>
>
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 17:47:45 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 18:47:45 -0500
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <4ED8069C.4090300@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
 <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>
 <BAC714FF-DAAA-42CD-A4CD-07F545367A8B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED8069C.4090300@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <A791AD1E-0567-4528-B17D-1A7A1C4F8982@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 5:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> > (Perhaps we have different concepts of what 'time-quantised' or
> > simply 'quantised' means. While there are differences, one might
> > ask the same question of an async serial signal for a simpler case to examine.)
> 
> It appears that you've identified the reason we disagree.
> 
> I would argue that asynchronous (start/stop) serial as received is non-time-quantized, although the clock recovery is much simpler than with a magnetic disk because the channel does not distort the timing by more than a trivial amount in proportion to the transmit rate.  A UART does have to oversample the async receive data and use a decision process (generally based on detection of the leading edge of the start bit) to identify the appropriate bit cell boundaries to time-quantize the data.
> 
> A synchronous serial channel provided with an explicit clock signal is time quantized.

I would second this description wholeheartedly.  What the DiscFerret and similar devices are doing is *re-quantizing* the data which has been *de-quantized* (i.e. randomly perturbed) by the drive mechanism and other random factors (including things like the differences between the controller that wrote the drive with arbitrary base frequency and drift).  After the signal has been re-quantized, it often needs significant work on it to re-align it in the time domain with the expected clock (thus the separator).

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 17:49:49 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 18:49:49 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ed8087f.8be6e70a.099a.ffffb207@mx.google.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <DE152EEC-F84B-4281-819A-9419D85BC551@gmail.com>
 <4ed8087f.8be6e70a.099a.ffffb207@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <3787736E-EB41-433C-AB74-8827FF4E4AD7@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Tom wrote:

> SCSI drives are rare? I have a bunch. Came out of old Compaq servers. What am I bid?
> 
> I got 9gb, 18gb, maybe a few 36gb, maybe some 2gb and 4gb. I'd have to poke about.
> 
> I thought these things were common as dirt.

I've had a hard time finding them cheaply even on eBay.  Are these single-ended SCSI, preferably narrow?  If so, I'll gladly pony up some cash for them.  Otherwise, the sea of adaptors I have always seems to be missing the one I need... I have one that's SCA2 to 50-pin, but I always seem to end up with SCA(1) drives that don't seem to work with it.

- Dave




From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  1 18:39:51 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 16:39:51 -0800
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <CAGy1GDwggksq7sTpFmS2qJ9efN8sOiPALuo3UffN7eaNF_fWjA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112012214050.17490@faeroes.freeshell.org>
 <4ED80A20.7080105@bitsavers.org>
 <CAGy1GDwggksq7sTpFmS2qJ9efN8sOiPALuo3UffN7eaNF_fWjA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED81E57.3010904@bitsavers.org>

On 12/1/11 3:37 PM, Marcin Wichary wrote:
> But the idea is
> also that it?s a fun, enjoyable conversation

I do radio interviews. These guys are amateurs
that are WAY too enamored with themselves.

 > The biographer?s name is Isaacson, not Iverson.

I thought so little of the biography that I've already
forgotten who the author was.



From mwichary at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 18:50:01 2011
From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 16:50:01 -0800
Subject: Steve Jobs
In-Reply-To: <4ED81E57.3010904@bitsavers.org>
References: <1494911978-1322717041-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1452276263-@b17.c15.bise6.blackberry>
 <CAGy1GDwXt9-XXJe2J_WovAkWrK+063QyzTsnTYbN=4y4__szSg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED7DDD5.6050508@bitsavers.org>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112012214050.17490@faeroes.freeshell.org>
 <4ED80A20.7080105@bitsavers.org>
 <CAGy1GDwggksq7sTpFmS2qJ9efN8sOiPALuo3UffN7eaNF_fWjA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED81E57.3010904@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAGy1GDwVWgfQW7MBH44gk5P_Hh5B+Nm70f2MZNm19Nn14o4X=g@mail.gmail.com>

>
> I do radio interviews. These guys are amateurs
> that are WAY too enamored with themselves.


I?m sure minicomputer companies thought the same way about Apple. ;?)

Marcin


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 18:59:44 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 19:59:44 -0500
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
Message-ID: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>

I've been more seriously contemplating my QBUS multi-purpose card idea now that one of my other major projects is nearly done.  I've been unable to find any official or even quasi-official mechanical specs for DEC cards (QBUS, UNIBUS, etc).  I'm obviously looking in the wrong places, since there's a wide degree of uniformity; I'm looking for things like board outlines, edge bevels, component clearances and the like.  The electrical specs are in quite a few places, so I'm not worried about that.

Interestingly enough, my Douglas CAD software for my old Mac has DEC card outline templates pre-stored.  However, I'm not even entirely sure Douglas makes PCBs anymore, and I imagine they can't beat my preferred board house on price (I'd love to be wrong).


- Dave




From brain at jbrain.com  Thu Dec  1 20:41:52 2011
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 20:41:52 -0600
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com>

On 12/1/2011 1:55 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> On 01/12/11 04:03, Tom wrote:
>> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote:
>>> m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a
>>> problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here.
>>
>> As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to
>> what? Diff?) as well.
>
> All this talk of SCSI has piqued my curiosity... maybe it's time for 
> another product...
>
> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in 
> hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be 
> connected to a SCSI bus?
> Perhaps even with the option of emulating SCSI CD-ROM drives 
> (including those pesky 512-byte block drives), or even multiple 
> devices at a time ("this partition contains a CD image and is SCSI dev 
> 5, this one is a 1GB hard drive on dev 4, and this is a 100MB 
> read-only HDD on dev 6").
>
> Obviously device IDs would be fully configurable (so you could make it 
> pretend to be a Quantum Bigfoot or Seagate Cheetah if you needed to). 
> Multi-LUN and Multi-Device might have to be (low cost) pay-for 
> options, though...
>
> "Answers on a self-addressed email, folks!"
>
> Cheers,
I was going to reply only off list, but the lemmings are all responding 
here, so I will as well (and I'll send a personal email to boot).

Sign me up.  I've been doing research for a few weeks on ways to 
accomplish this, but had not thought to post to the list.

I have working SD routines, and a nice uC option (ST32F4 series), but 
was stuck at the SCSI interface layer.

I was hoping to sidestep the need for an FPGA, just because they can 
inflate the cost of a project quite a bit.

In any event, I am extremely interested in this.  I have SD code, 
FAT12/16/32 LFN code, and code to handle some image formats, though more 
code is no doubt needed.

Jim


-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 21:38:44 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 22:38:44 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Jim Brain wrote:

> I was going to reply only off list, but the lemmings are all responding here, so I will as well (and I'll send a personal email to boot).

I guess I didn't realize that's what he meant.  Oh well.  Good discussion is good. :-)

> I have working SD routines, and a nice uC option (ST32F4 series), but was stuck at the SCSI interface layer.

The F4 series is nice.  One of my pet project desires is one that can stream images over NFS; you'd have to use an external PHY (TI's Stellaris series has a built-in PHY, but it's undesirable for a number of other reasons).

> I was hoping to sidestep the need for an FPGA, just because they can inflate the cost of a project quite a bit.

And they're not strictly necessary.  I would be interested in that aspect because it allows for a lot of hardware offload, but since a Cortex-M4 is quite a beast, it's probably not a big deal.  ST has a nice DMA engine in their F2/F4 series, too.

The FPGA doesn't help at the physical layer; they're all 3.3v and down these days.  Finding an external transceiver that is still cheaply produced in volume is the challenge.

> In any event, I am extremely interested in this.  I have SD code, FAT12/16/32 LFN code, and code to handle some image formats, though more code is no doubt needed.

Always useful.


- Dave




From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec  1 22:05:54 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 20:05:54 -0800
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>,
 <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com>, <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED7DE22.12526.249252E@cclist.sydex.com>

On 1 Dec 2011 at 22:38, David Riley wrote:

> I guess I didn't realize that's what he meant.  Oh well.  Good
> discussion is good. :-)

Don't both Acard and Addonics have something along this line already? 
I know that Addonics has a SCSI-SATA converter and I think that Acard 
still makes a SCSI-ATA converter.  The latter can connect to a 
regular SATA SSD if a high-performance solid-state soluation is 
needed.  The former can connect to an IDE-CF adapter (cheap) if a CF 
solution is needed.

I've also seen on eBay some 2.5" form factor SCSI-to-CF internal Mac-
style adapters on That Auction Site.

What am I missing?

--Chuck



From brain at jbrain.com  Thu Dec  1 22:36:45 2011
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Thu, 01 Dec 2011 22:36:45 -0600
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4ED855DD.1050509@jbrain.com>

Reading the vcforum thread mentioned earlier, Andrew noted there was a 
previous cctalk SCSI->SD discussion here, but that it died out.  What 
happened there?

JIm



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec  1 23:26:13 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 00:26:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <201112020526.AAA19281@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in
> hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be
> connected to a SCSI bus?

Tentatively, I would be, though I suspect it wouldn't be worth enough
to me to be worth making.

SATA would be worth significantly more to me.  (No, I haven't
investigated whether it exists; I haven't yet wanted it badly enough to
get past the activation energy, which is high since the only feasible
search mechanism left these days is the Web.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 23:27:18 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 00:27:18 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DE22.12526.249252E@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>,
 <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com>,
 <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
 <4ED7DE22.12526.249252E@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <570C3EFF-E9F2-476E-B29C-66CE207CC47D@gmail.com>

On Dec 1, 2011, at 11:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 1 Dec 2011 at 22:38, David Riley wrote:
> 
>> I guess I didn't realize that's what he meant.  Oh well.  Good
>> discussion is good. :-)
> 
> Don't both Acard and Addonics have something along this line already? 
> I know that Addonics has a SCSI-SATA converter and I think that Acard 
> still makes a SCSI-ATA converter.  The latter can connect to a 
> regular SATA SSD if a high-performance solid-state soluation is 
> needed.  The former can connect to an IDE-CF adapter (cheap) if a CF 
> solution is needed.
> 
> I've also seen on eBay some 2.5" form factor SCSI-to-CF internal Mac-
> style adapters on That Auction Site.
> 
> What am I missing?

Those are great for just replacing drives with something that'll function.  Probably something I might bite on for my old Macs, actually (don't know how well they'll fit in an LC case).  I'd need the Acard one for my old Macs, since they only speak single-ended (Addonics is LVD only).  They're a bit pricey, though (about $250 from my very cursory glance).

What it really comes down to for me, though, is that I want something to play with. :-)  Also, for vintage emulation, the ability to run from an image on a server is quite useful.

- Dave


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec  1 23:31:41 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 00:31:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <027c01ccb07c$12a24740$37e6d5c0$@ntlworld.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <027c01ccb07c$12a24740$37e6d5c0$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <201112020531.AAA19370@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Maybe in ten years, but at the moment, SCSI disks are plentiful.
> That depends.  I need SCSI disks that are less than 1GB, those are
> much harder to find.

Now I'm curious: what are you dealing with that fails with disks over
1G?

Perhaps a machine with a SCSI interface running in target mode (and
some other disk interface, SCSI or otherwise, to back requests) would
be an appropriate way to address this?  I don't know much about
software support for target mode, but it must exist to _some_ extent.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec  1 23:40:22 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2011 21:40:22 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <4ED8069C.4090300@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
 <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>
 <BAC714FF-DAAA-42CD-A4CD-07F545367A8B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED8069C.4090300@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <F9AF3E62-D4FF-4362-B48E-C642229653A6@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 1, at 2:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> On 12/01/2011 02:26 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> > The data may not be quite the way you want it (it includes clock  
> transitions)
>
> I don't have an issue with that; that's the way it was written.
>
> > and you need a transformation to get it to the way you want, but  
> that
> > transformation is (or primarily is) a discrete process or  
> transformation.
>
> That you can perform a process that takes non-time-quantized read  
> data signal from the drive and by a "discrete process" produce a  
> time-quantized output that is (usually) the same as the signal that  
> was originally written does not in any way prove that the read data  
> signal from the drive was time-quantized.

> > That it is possible to produce a data-separator that recovers the  
> data so reliably is exactly the point.
>
> That argument could be used to claim that the signal a V.32 modem  
> receives over a telephone line is voltage-quantized, because you  
> can sample it then apply a "discrete process" to reliably get the  
> original data transmitted from the other end.
>
> In both cases, if the channel signal was actually quantized (in the  
> time domain for the magnetic disk, and in the amplitude domain for  
> the modem), there wouldn't be any need for a "discrete process" the  
> you describe.

In the case of V.32 and such, the raw signal is by intention a  
continuously varying (analog) signal (the carrier), done for the sake  
of making it through the transmission medium. In this it is different  
from the other signals being discussed. However, once you analyse the  
AC characteristics of that signal (demodulation), you find it is  
quantised - in that AC context - in that there are a finite number of  
discrete AC amplitude levels and a finite number of discrete phase  
relations (which together produce the dibits or whatever they are  
called for multi-bit bauds).


> > (Perhaps we have different concepts of what 'time-quantised' or
> > simply 'quantised' means. While there are differences, one might
> > ask the same question of an async serial signal for a simpler  
> case to examine.)
>
> It appears that you've identified the reason we disagree.

Without meaning to put words in your mouth, I get the feeling you  
don't consider the signal quantized until it is cleaned up and in a  
form acceptable to the receiving system (appropriate voltage levels  
and synced to internal clocks).

In contrast, I consider it quantized if discrete information is  
represented in the signal in discernible 'chunks' (quanta), be they  
amplitude chunks, time chunks, or both - it is a property of the  
signal, without any need for consideration of the receiving system.  
The size of a given chunk may vary with noise/perturbations/ 
fluctuations/deformation to the signal, but none of those - within  
limits - are sufficient to de-quantize the signal (to ref Dave's  
reply). Any physical implementation of a discrete system will have  
noise and signal deformation, even TTL signals. Sending data to an  
external medium may mean a loss of reference (sometimes necessitating  
the addition of self-referencing info), that still doesn't disqualify  
the signal as being quantized.


> I would argue that asynchronous (start/stop) serial as received is  
> non-time-quantized, although the clock recovery is much simpler  
> than with a magnetic disk because the channel does not distort the  
> timing by more than a trivial amount in proportion to the transmit  
> rate.  A UART does have to oversample the async receive data and  
> use a decision process (generally based on detection of the leading  
> edge of the start bit) to identify the appropriate bit cell  
> boundaries to time-quantize the data.

And of course I argue the opposite, the signal is still time- 
quantized because the information is still in discernible chunks.  
With knowledge of the bit rate, a given event within a limited range  
allowing for noise has the same discrete meaning. (e.g. a positive  
level at [x +/-e uS] after the start bit means bit 5 is 1.)

There may be an analog relationship between the signal start bit (and  
hence following bits) and the receiver bit clock, but that does not  
mean the signal is not quantized.


> A synchronous serial channel provided with an explicit clock signal  
> is time quantized.




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  1 23:52:00 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 00:52:00 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112020531.AAA19370@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <027c01ccb07c$12a24740$37e6d5c0$@ntlworld.com>
 <201112020531.AAA19370@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <5C9AF32D-BB67-4E61-8DF9-A2075B398270@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011, at 12:31 AM, Mouse wrote:

>>> Maybe in ten years, but at the moment, SCSI disks are plentiful.
>> That depends.  I need SCSI disks that are less than 1GB, those are
>> much harder to find.
> 
> Now I'm curious: what are you dealing with that fails with disks over
> 1G?

Anything that runs only with the old 6-byte SCSI commands (pre-SCSI-2).  That includes pretty much all VAXStation 3100s as well as anything based on the 53C90 (not 53C90A), I think.  I'd have to double check the datasheet on that last one, but I remember that being the critical difference between the two.


- Dave




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec  2 00:00:52 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 01:00:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <5C9AF32D-BB67-4E61-8DF9-A2075B398270@gmail.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <027c01ccb07c$12a24740$37e6d5c0$@ntlworld.com>
 <201112020531.AAA19370@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5C9AF32D-BB67-4E61-8DF9-A2075B398270@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112020600.BAA19764@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Now I'm curious: what are you dealing with that fails with disks
>> over 1G?
> Anything that runs only with the old 6-byte SCSI commands
> (pre-SCSI-2).

Many such systems will work fine with disks over 1G; they'll just be
able to use only the first 1G of them.  (This assumes software can be
told to use only part of a drive's self-reported capacity, which of
course may not be so in your case.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From emu at e-bbes.com  Fri Dec  2 00:55:02 2011
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 07:55:02 +0100
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <5C9AF32D-BB67-4E61-8DF9-A2075B398270@gmail.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <027c01ccb07c$12a24740$37e6d5c0$@ntlworld.com>
 <201112020531.AAA19370@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <5C9AF32D-BB67-4E61-8DF9-A2075B398270@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111202075502.j97ipn2poo4gk8ko@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Zitat von David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>:

> Anything that runs only with the old 6-byte SCSI commands   
> (pre-SCSI-2).  That includes pretty much all VAXStation 3100s as   
> well as anything based on the 53C90 (not 53C90A), I think.  I'd have  
>  to double check the datasheet on that last one, but I remember that  
>  being the critical difference between the two.

There were patches out the for the PROMS to solve that.
(Not official, but somebody did that)



From arcarlini at iee.org  Fri Dec  2 01:26:45 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 07:26:45 -0000
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
In-Reply-To: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <083395875B27429087BB3FFE5DDD392C@ANTONIOPC>

David Riley [fraveydank at gmail.com] wrote:
> I've been more seriously contemplating my QBUS multi-purpose
> card idea now that one of my other major projects is nearly
> done.  I've been unable to find any official or even
> quasi-official mechanical specs for DEC cards (QBUS, UNIBUS,
> etc).  I'm obviously looking in the wrong places, since
> there's a wide degree of uniformity; I'm looking for things
> like board outlines, edge bevels, component clearances and
> the like.  The electrical specs are in quite a few places, so I'm not
> worried about that. 

EK-BA200-DG-001 BA200 Series Module Design Guide.

That may cover things you don't need (like the "S" handles etc.)
but I expect that the physical specs for the board are the same.

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



From arcarlini at iee.org  Fri Dec  2 01:35:12 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 07:35:12 -0000
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112020600.BAA19764@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <702D452EB6C642BA913B30080B0D71A9@ANTONIOPC>

Mouse [mouse at rodents-montreal.org] wrote:
> Many such systems will work fine with disks over 1G; they'll
> just be able to use only the first 1G of them.  (This assumes
> software can be told to use only part of a drive's
> self-reported capacity, which of course may not be so in your case.)

OpenVMS will not work properly on (affected) VAXstation 3100s with
a system disk over 1G in size.

OpenVMS uses the console disk driver during early boot and during a
crash (to write the crashdump file). When presented with an address
>1G the console disk driver "wraps around" (i.e. uses address MOD 1G).

That prevents a successful boot, although you can work around it by
very carefully arranging for the critical parts to be on an appropriate
part of the disk (you also need to ensure that they don't move).

If the dump file (or pagefile, depending on how you are configured)
fails to meet the restirctions, then *writes* go to the wrong place
on crash. That's somewhat worse than failing to boot ...

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec  2 02:03:49 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 03:03:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <702D452EB6C642BA913B30080B0D71A9@ANTONIOPC>
References: <702D452EB6C642BA913B30080B0D71A9@ANTONIOPC>
Message-ID: <201112020803.DAA21069@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> (This assumes software can be told to use only part of a drive's
>> self-reported capacity, which of course may not be so [...].)
> OpenVMS will [break]

I had VMS in mind.  But my VMS experience does not include any SCSI
disks, nor anything over 1G in size, so I didn't actually know whether
it can be told to do anything like the partitioning typical Unices can
do (which would make it much easier to put everything accessed with the
ROM driver below the magic 1G boundary).

All software sucks...just in different ways. :/

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Fri Dec  2 02:06:29 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 09:06:29 +0100
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
In-Reply-To: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
References: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111202090629.0edcd611.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Thu, 1 Dec 2011 19:59:44 -0500
David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've been unable to find any official or even quasi-official mechanical
> specs for DEC cards (QBUS, UNIBUS, etc).
IIRC I saw it somewhere in one of these PDFs:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/UnibusSpec1979.pdf
Here it is, page 90:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/handbooks/PDP11_BusHandbook1979.pdf
There are other interresting things hiden, like:
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/UnibusTroubleshooting.pdf
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec  2 02:08:01 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 00:08:01 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <F9AF3E62-D4FF-4362-B48E-C642229653A6@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <m1RVqkw-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca>
 <93F5551A-DCE8-40DB-9627-FF200A32C600@gmail.com>
 <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED7F046.2070203@brouhaha.com>
 <BAC714FF-DAAA-42CD-A4CD-07F545367A8B@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED8069C.4090300@brouhaha.com>
 <F9AF3E62-D4FF-4362-B48E-C642229653A6@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED88761.30303@brouhaha.com>

Brent Hilpert wrote:
 > In the case of V.32 and such, the raw signal is by intention a 
continuously
 > varying (analog) signal (the carrier), done for the sake of making it 
through
 > the transmission medium. In this it is different from the other 
signals being
 > discussed.

In terms of modulation complexity, yes.

 > However, once you analyse the AC characteristics of that signal 
(demodulation),
 > you find it is quantised - in that AC context - in that there are a 
finite number
 > of discrete AC amplitude levels and a finite number of discrete phase 
relations

At the transmit end.  Not by the time it goes through the phone system 
(including parts of the modems such as the hybrid).  Just as I've been 
saying about magnetic disk, the channel changes the nature of the signal 
dramatically, such that it is actually extremely difficult to quantize 
it correctly at the receiving end.

 > (which together produce the dibits or whatever they are called for 
multi-bit bauds).

Symbols (information-theoretic) or constellation points (modulation 
terminology).

 > Without meaning to put words in your mouth, I get the feeling you 
don't consider
 > the signal quantized until it is cleaned up and in a form acceptable 
to the receiving
 >system (appropriate voltage levels and synced to internal clocks).

Yes.  For amplitude quantization, if the transmitter and channel can 
guarantee (for example) that a signal is always under 0.8V for a zero 
and over 2.0V for a one, at the receiving end, then it is already 
quantized.  If any non-trivial processing is necessary to recover what 
the transmit amplitude was, then the signal was not amplitude-quantized 
prior to that processing.

In the time domain, if the transmitter and channel can provide the 
receiver with a simple unambiguous indication of the correct times to 
sample the data, it is time quantized.  If any non-trivial processing is 
necessary to recover that timing information, then the signal is not 
time-quantized prior to that processing.

 > In contrast, I consider it quantized if discrete information is 
represented in the
 > signal in discernible 'chunks' (quanta), be they amplitude chunks, 
time chunks,
 > or both - it is a property of the signal, without any need for 
consideration of the
 > receiving system.

I would only say that that indicates that there is encoded digital data 
present, but not that it is quantized at the point where it is 
received.  It is the job of the receiver to quantize it back into the 
original digital data.

 > The size of a given chunk may vary with 
noise/perturbations/fluctuations/deformation
 > to the signal, but none of those - within limits - are sufficient to 
de-quantize the signal
 > (to ref Dave's reply).

If there were hard, quantifiable limits, I might agree with you.  
However, that's not how it works.  For timing of magnetic disk flux 
transitions, and for all aspects of V.32 modulation, as you get further 
from the optimal conditions, there isn't an abrupt transition from a 
point where the signal was a 0 to a point where the signal was a 1.  
There is a considerable overlap region of uncertainty.  When the system 
is working well, the signal doesn't spend much time in that region.

 > Any physical implementation of a discrete system will have noise and 
signal
 > deformation, even TTL signals.

Of course.  With TTL signals, there are known simple design criteria 
which can be used to ensure that the signals make it from the driver to 
the receiver without violating the limits on logic level margins and 
without significant timing distortion.  With magnetic media and with 
V.32 modulation, the same cannot be said.

 > Sending data to an external medium may mean a loss of reference 
(sometimes
 > necessitating the addition of self-referencing info), that still 
doesn't disqualify
 > the signal as being quantized.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.  In my opinion, if it 
is quantized, there is a trivial and entirely unambiguous interpretation 
of the signal, and with complex modulations and noisy channels, that 
clearly isn't the case.

I know that the modem engineers I worked with did not consider the 
analog signal arriving at the ADC in the modem to be quantized.  They 
only considered the data to be quantized after they sampled the ADC, 
hilbert-transformed it with digital filters, and had a carrier tracking 
loop determine the times to sample the result of the filters.  Before 
that point, it was considered a noisy, non-quantized signal.



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec  2 02:09:40 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 00:09:40 -0800
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com> <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED887C4.9070309@brouhaha.com>

David Riley wrote:
 > (TI's Stellaris series has a built-in PHY, but it's undesirable for a 
number of other reasons).

I've used TI/Luminary/Stellaris parts for several projects.  What do you 
find undesirable about them?



From emu at e-bbes.com  Fri Dec  2 02:36:07 2011
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 09:36:07 +0100
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED887C4.9070309@brouhaha.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk> <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com>
 <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
 <4ED887C4.9070309@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <20111202093607.b7c1dz6msoogcksg@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Zitat von Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com>:

> David Riley wrote:
>> (TI's Stellaris series has a built-in PHY, but it's undesirable for a
> number of other reasons).
>
> I've used TI/Luminary/Stellaris parts for several projects.  What do
> you find undesirable about them?

Thanks Eric, I was wondering about the same ...
(did some commercial Luminary projects, and all worked well)


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 07:44:41 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 08:44:41 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED887C4.9070309@brouhaha.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <4ED83AF0.70209@jbrain.com> <BE523F71-E48B-40E8-9386-A95C44835145@gmail.com>
 <4ED887C4.9070309@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <26C26961-A4F6-4457-B05F-FE9592507B28@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011, at 3:09 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> David Riley wrote:
> > (TI's Stellaris series has a built-in PHY, but it's undesirable for a number of other reasons).
> 
> I've used TI/Luminary/Stellaris parts for several projects.  What do you find undesirable about them?

I don't find them generally undesirable (we've used them in projects, too), but their voltage rails aren't as flexible.  Perhaps I'm overthinking it (a result of too many projects where the rails got out of hand).

I'm actually having a hard time remembering now what in particular I was thinking about as far as problems with the Stellaris.  Their ROMed drivers are a nice feature, and the built-in PHY is pretty handy.  I guess it's probably a result of too many unfortunate interactions with TI's support on other projects.  They have a nasty habit (probably from experience, but still) of assuming that if you're asking for the datasheet for something, you're going to be calling their engineers up for support all the time.

We had an outdoor wildlife camera project where the requirement was booting from a cold start and take a picture in under a second.  Not entirely unreasonable if you're running on bare metal.  TI had one of their media processing chips with an embedded JPEG engine, and I asked for the datasheet to that part (which was unreleased).  They told me to just "use the provided Linux driver", regardless of my protestations that that wasn't really an option for something that needed to boot in a second.

Anyway, long-winded rant.  The Stellaris parts are fine, I think I just have some negative associations with TI support that color my thinking. :-)


- Dave




From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Dec  2 07:48:26 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 07:48:26 -0600
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112020526.AAA19281@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <201112020526.AAA19281@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <201112021352.pB2Dq4Jw076014@billy.ezwind.net>

At 11:26 PM 12/1/2011, Mouse wrote:
>> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in
>> hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be
>> connected to a SCSI bus?
>
>SATA would be worth significantly more to me.  (No, I haven't
>investigated whether it exists; I haven't yet wanted it badly enough to
>get past the activation energy, which is high since the only feasible
>search mechanism left these days is the Web.)

Google "sata to sd", was the second hit:

http://www.soarland.com/SATA_to_SD_Adapter-product-258.html

Says it's US $19.01:

http://www.dealextreme.com/p/sdhc-sd-card-to-sata-solid-state-hard-drive-22597

Given the speed of SD, does it matter whether it's SATA or USB?

The review there makes it sound like that adapter only delivered 10 MB /sec.

- John



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 08:23:24 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 09:23:24 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112021352.pB2Dq4Jw076014@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <201112020526.AAA19281@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <201112021352.pB2Dq4Jw076014@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <2E13BB03-0583-4376-8250-81E9252E3882@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011, at 8:48 AM, John Foust wrote:

>> SATA would be worth significantly more to me.  (No, I haven't
>> investigated whether it exists; I haven't yet wanted it badly enough to
>> get past the activation energy, which is high since the only feasible
>> search mechanism left these days is the Web.)
> 
> Google "sata to sd", was the second hit:
> 
> http://www.soarland.com/SATA_to_SD_Adapter-product-258.html
> 
> Says it's US $19.01:
> 
> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/sdhc-sd-card-to-sata-solid-state-hard-drive-22597
> 
> Given the speed of SD, does it matter whether it's SATA or USB?

Probably not for speed, but if you want it to look like a real hard drive as much as possible, it matters.  Especially on PCs, where the BIOS tricks used to make USB drives look like IDE drives can really confuse an OS once it boots and sees it as a USB device as well.


- Dave


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec  2 10:12:21 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:12:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112021352.pB2Dq4Jw076014@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <201112020526.AAA19281@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <201112021352.pB2Dq4Jw076014@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <201112021612.LAA27320@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> [...], which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a
>>> SCSI bus?
>> SATA would be worth significantly more to me.  ([haven't looked])
> Google "sata to sd", was the second hit:

No, no, I meant SATA instead of SD/CF, not SATA instead of SCSI.
That is, I was talking about putting a SATA drive on a SCSI bus.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From vrs at msn.com  Fri Dec  2 12:59:16 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 10:59:16 -0800
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
In-Reply-To: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
References: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP2769100E629061164EFCC09B2B60@phx.gbl>

From: David Riley; Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:59 PM
> I've been more seriously contemplating my QBUS multi-purpose card idea now
> that one of my other major projects is nearly done.  I've been unable to find
> any official or even quasi-official mechanical specs for DEC cards (QBUS,
> UNIBUS, etc).  I'm obviously looking in the wrong places, since there's a wide
> degree of uniformity; I'm looking for things like board outlines, edge bevels,
> component clearances and the like.  The electrical specs are in quite a few
> places, so I'm not worried about that.

Board outlines can be found at the front of various Logic Handbooks.  They
only contradict each other a little bit :-).  Likewise component clearances.
I haven't seen the edge bevel specified anywhere, but it isn't very critical
either.

> Interestingly enough, my Douglas CAD software for my old Mac has DEC card
> outline templates pre-stored.  However, I'm not even entirely sure Douglas
> makes PCBs anymore, and I imagine they can't beat my preferred board house on
> price (I'd love to be wrong).

My Eagle CAD libraries have card outlines, edge connectors, and even
many of the obsolete parts.  You can find them at:
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html

I should really try get around to updating the copies there.  If you plan to
use them (or see something important missing) let me know offlist and I'll
see what I can do.

    Vince
 



From scheefj at netscape.net  Fri Dec  2 13:04:26 2011
From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:04:26 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>

Sam,

I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure 
about 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any 
legacy code from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that 
copyright should have expired now - it been 20+ years...

Jim

On 11/30/2011 12:35 PM, Sam Onella wrote:
> Do you recall what it went for?  Version 1.1 and 1.2 are the two with Microsoft taking credit for the OS right?
>
> --- On Tue, 11/29/11, Jim Scheef<scheefj at netscape.net>  wrote:
>
>> From: Jim Scheef<scheefj at netscape.net>
>> Did anyone on the list win the
>> Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a
>> few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those
>> disks...
>>
>> Jim
>>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 13:15:32 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:15:32 -0500
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP2769100E629061164EFCC09B2B60@phx.gbl>
References: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP2769100E629061164EFCC09B2B60@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <A669E4B7-8E6B-4E1D-9815-61F5E70E41DC@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

> From: David Riley; Thursday, December 01, 2011 4:59 PM
> Board outlines can be found at the front of various Logic Handbooks.  They
> only contradict each other a little bit :-).  Likewise component clearances.
> I haven't seen the edge bevel specified anywhere, but it isn't very critical
> either.

That's a good place to look, I hadn't found those yet.  I'm assuming a standard 30 degree bevel should do.

>> Interestingly enough, my Douglas CAD software for my old Mac has DEC card
>> outline templates pre-stored.  However, I'm not even entirely sure Douglas
>> makes PCBs anymore, and I imagine they can't beat my preferred board house on
>> price (I'd love to be wrong).
> 
> My Eagle CAD libraries have card outlines, edge connectors, and even
> many of the obsolete parts.  You can find them at:
> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html

I'll take a look.  I don't use EAGLE, but I'll see if they're exportable to anything else (even something human-readable).

> I should really try get around to updating the copies there.  If you plan to
> use them (or see something important missing) let me know offlist and I'll
> see what I can do.

Thanks!  I might give you a buzz.

Thanks also to everyone else who pointed out the bits that I missed in the manuals I already looked through; perhaps maybe I just need to read slower. :-)



- Dave




From vrs at msn.com  Fri Dec  2 13:30:31 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 11:30:31 -0800
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
In-Reply-To: <A669E4B7-8E6B-4E1D-9815-61F5E70E41DC@gmail.com>
References: <4452F94B-0915-4FEB-B974-83DE3629EFD9@gmail.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP2769100E629061164EFCC09B2B60@phx.gbl>
 <A669E4B7-8E6B-4E1D-9815-61F5E70E41DC@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP290AFC38475CA6780658140B2B60@phx.gbl>

From: David Riley; Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 11:15 AM
> On Dec 2, 2011, at 1:59 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>> My Eagle CAD libraries have card outlines, edge connectors, and even
>> many of the obsolete parts.  You can find them at:
>> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html
> 
> I'll take a look.  I don't use EAGLE, but I'll see if they're exportable to 
> anything else (even something human-readable).

If you need them exported, I believe there's a way to export things as 
scripts, which when fed back to Eagle, will re-create the library.  I have 
used it to back-port stuff from Eagle 5 to Eagle 4.  Anyway, you'd end 
up with plain-text commands to draw the thing, which you could then 
massage in Perl or whatever to be what your stuff needs.

    Vince
 


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  2 13:37:19 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 11:37:19 -0800
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Dec 2011 at 14:04, Jim Scheef wrote:

> Sam,
> 
> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure
> about 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any
> legacy code from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that
> copyright should have expired now - it been 20+ years...

In the US, this may be regarded as a "collaborative corporate work" 
or whatever it's called.  130 years protection, thank you Mary Bono, 
Disney, Gershwin trust...  Otherwise, 95 years.

In 130 years, will anyone even know what a personal computer was?

--Chuck





From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 13:42:09 2011
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:42:09 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrXNt9XGKyUD0dEd5sTTienH6CMk=BGy=NGqyks8OP5AYg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote:
> Sam,
>
> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure about
> 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any legacy code
> from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that copyright should
> have expired now - it been 20+ years...

1.2 was the last truly jointly developed version, but 1.3 was the last
jointly-SOLD version (basically all of the new features 1.3 had over
12 were IBM-developed, but MS happily kept selling until they could
get NT out the door.

Mike


From scheefj at netscape.net  Fri Dec  2 13:47:44 2011
From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:47:44 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CAFBDFAF.93E2%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <CAFBDFAF.93E2%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <4ED92B60.20208@netscape.net>

Ian,

There are differences between the IBM and Microsoft versions of OS/2 
with the networking being the key difference. There was also a 3COM 
version of OS/2 that is even more rare than Microsoft's. The 3COM 
version uses DIX or "true Ethernet" (with capital E) rather than 802.3. 
Most of the code for OS/2 server came from 3COM - it was the contract 
with Microsoft that eventually cost Bob Metcalfe his job.

IBM sold LAN Server, Microsoft's was LAN Manager (as in the LANMAN 
authentication we still have today). Microsoft's was only sold to OEMs 
so most disks say Compaq.

One of the things I want to investigate is the interoperability between 
the IBM and Microsoft versions of OS/2, so I need both.

Jim

On 11/30/2011 4:28 PM, Ian King wrote:
> I have OS/2 1.0 and 1.1 and both are in IBM slipcases.
>
> You need images?  I have disks?.  -- Ian
>
> On 11/29/11 12:27 PM, "Jim Scheef"<scheefj at netscape.net>  wrote:
>
>> Did anyone on the list win the Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a
>> few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those disks...
>>
>> Jim
>>
>


From scheefj at netscape.net  Fri Dec  2 13:49:57 2011
From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:49:57 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEtzRCtnawqs6LT3tu1Zu_J++BXNU2jEWNKEbk4Oaja=g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTimcVGZSKTbcFxv+DtgsiQWKr6k7U56woygJM0Wq@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net>
 <CAMTenCEtzRCtnawqs6LT3tu1Zu_J++BXNU2jEWNKEbk4Oaja=g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED92BE5.7020801@netscape.net>

Liam,

Thanks for this pointer. Now if I can just get an account on that 
system, we might make some progress - assuming the disk images are 
really what they claim to be. My bet is they will all be the IBM version.

Jim

On 11/30/2011 8:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 29 November 2011 20:27, Jim Scheef<scheefj at netscape.net>  wrote:
>> Did anyone on the list win the Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a
>> few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those disks...
> You might find this useful:
> http://vetusware.com/download/os%202%201.0/?id=7257
> http://vetusware.com/download/OS2%201.1/?id=5954
> http://vetusware.com/download/OS2%201.2/?id=5535
> http://vetusware.com/download/OS2%201.30.1/?id=3532
>


From scheefj at netscape.net  Fri Dec  2 13:54:47 2011
From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:54:47 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
 <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4ED92D07.9010308@netscape.net>

God forbid the copyright on Sonny's songs should expire while that tree 
still stands at Heavenly Valley. ;-^)

On 12/2/2011 2:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 2 Dec 2011 at 14:04, Jim Scheef wrote:
>
>> Sam,
>>
>> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure
>> about 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any
>> legacy code from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that
>> copyright should have expired now - it been 20+ years...
> In the US, this may be regarded as a "collaborative corporate work"
> or whatever it's called.  130 years protection, thank you Mary Bono,
> Disney, Gershwin trust...  Otherwise, 95 years.
>
> In 130 years, will anyone even know what a personal computer was?
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 13:55:02 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:55:02 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <4CF5749E-4309-4837-962E-9F0AF86DDF9D@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:04 PM, Jim Scheef wrote:

> Sam,
> 
> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure about 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any legacy code from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that copyright should have expired now - it been 20+ years...

I think you're maybe thinking of patents?  US Copyrights take a lot longer to expire (and, thanks to various high-stakes interest holders like those that Chuck mentioned, probably never will at this rate).


- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 13:57:15 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:57:15 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrXNt9XGKyUD0dEd5sTTienH6CMk=BGy=NGqyks8OP5AYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
 <CAHfSdrXNt9XGKyUD0dEd5sTTienH6CMk=BGy=NGqyks8OP5AYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AE8417ED-EBF5-4503-98E7-A09156599CCF@gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011, at 2:42 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 2:04 PM, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote:
>> Sam,
>> 
>> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure about
>> 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any legacy code
>> from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that copyright should
>> have expired now - it been 20+ years...
> 
> 1.2 was the last truly jointly developed version, but 1.3 was the last
> jointly-SOLD version (basically all of the new features 1.3 had over
> 12 were IBM-developed, but MS happily kept selling until they could
> get NT out the door.

Wikipedia has this image of a Microsoft-branded 1.3 disk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MS-OS2-v1.0-diskettes.jpg

Of course, since it's Wikipedia, it's probably actually just a photoshopped image of a marmoset someone put up for yuks. :-)


- Dave




From RichA at vulcan.com  Fri Dec  2 13:58:32 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 19:58:32 +0000
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E256D@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Jim Scheef
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 11:04 AM

> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure 
> about 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any 
> legacy code from the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that 
> copyright should have expired now - it been 20+ years...

????

US Copyright for "anonymous works, pseudonymous works, and works made
for hire" lasts for 95 years from first publication or 120 years from
creation, whichever comes first, as of 1978.

Come on, people, the relevant portion of the US Copyright code is not
hard to read:  http://copyright.gov/title17/ has every chapter in PDF.
See Chapter 3, "Duration of Copyright", Section 302.


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec  2 14:31:31 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 12:31:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <20111202123044.V57042@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Jim Scheef wrote:
> copyright should have expired now - it been 20+ years...

It does not work that way.


YOU will be dead for many years before that is out of copyright.





From billdeg at degnanco.com  Fri Dec  2 14:32:25 2011
From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:32:25 -0500
Subject: Donner 3500 Manuals Posted
Message-ID: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>

I have received a few requests for the Donner 3500 instruction manual, 
which I have posted on my site, with related docs

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=421&tid=9

It appears a few of these are popping out of the woodwork lately.  There 
are now at least 8 now known to exist, maybe more.  

Bill Degnan



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec  2 14:32:59 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 12:32:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, 
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
 <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111202123227.E57042@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> In 130 years, will anyone even know what a personal computer was?

Will that machine stop downloading XP patches?





From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Fri Dec  2 14:44:13 2011
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 15:44:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Donner 3500 Manuals Posted
In-Reply-To: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>
References: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112021543490.25741@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, B. Degnan wrote:

> I have received a few requests for the Donner 3500 instruction manual,
> which I have posted on my site, with related docs
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=421&tid=9
>
> It appears a few of these are popping out of the woodwork lately.  There
> are now at least 8 now known to exist, maybe more.

    The Donner party?


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Fri Dec  2 14:47:52 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 12:47:52 -0800
Subject: Donner 3500 Manuals Posted
In-Reply-To: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>
References: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>
Message-ID: <F89700D9-BC2C-4ED7-A0B3-3B45C3FD27B4@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 2, at 12:32 PM, B. Degnan wrote:
> I have received a few requests for the Donner 3500 instruction manual,
> which I have posted on my site, with related docs
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=421&tid=9
>
> It appears a few of these are popping out of the woodwork lately.   
> There
> are now at least 8 now known to exist, maybe more.



Recalling a request from two months ago, has this made it's way to  
Higinbotham?



From geoffr at zipcon.net  Fri Dec  2 16:07:14 2011
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:07:14 -0800
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112020531.AAA19370@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAFE8C12.579BC%geoffr@zipcon.net>

On 12/1/11 9:31 PM, "Mouse" <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

>>> Maybe in ten years, but at the moment, SCSI disks are plentiful.
>> That depends.  I need SCSI disks that are less than 1GB, those are
>> much harder to find.
> 
> Now I'm curious: what are you dealing with that fails with disks over
> 1G?
> 
> Perhaps a machine with a SCSI interface running in target mode (and
> some other disk interface, SCSI or otherwise, to back requests) would
> be an appropriate way to address this?  I don't know much about
> software support for target mode, but it must exist to _some_ extent.

I know some of the ACSI<->SCSI adapters for the atari ST series don't work
with drives > 1gb.  Also some of the older CP/M and unix machines
controllers didn't support big drives.  There was a SCSI controller for the
tandy 2,12,16 & 6000 but it only supported certain SCSI removable media and
1 or 2 hard drives.




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  2 16:44:20 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 14:44:20 -0800
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED92D07.9010308@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
 <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4ED92D07.9010308@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <4ED8E444.29927.15B2B8C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Dec 2011 at 14:54, Jim Scheef wrote:

> God forbid the copyright on Sonny's songs should expire while that
> tree still stands at Heavenly Valley. ;-^)

A not-well-known tidbit is that Mary Bono thought that copyrights 
should be perpetual.  Evidently, she'd not read the US Constitution.

Apparently, neither has the Supreme Court.  They held that long 
extension of copyright was perfectly legal.  I believe it was 
Lawrence Lessig who asked if perpetual copyright could be achieved by 
multiple finite extensions of the copyright term.  The Supremes 
thought that perfectly reasonable.

I believe that Prof. Lessig has another iron in the fire currently, 
namely Golan v. Holder, arguing the unconstitutionality of "restored 
copyrights".  A decision from the Supremes is due any year now.

As Fred observed, you will be long dead by the time the copyright 
expires on OS/2.  The only question remaining is will your great-
great-great-grandhildren also be dust before the work enters the 
public domain.

--Chuck



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Dec  2 16:55:04 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 14:55:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Jim Scheef wrote:

> Sam,
>
> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure about 1.2 
> or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any legacy code from 
> the earlier versions had a joint copyright. Gee, that copyright should have 
> expired now - it been 20+ years...
>
AFAIK, Copyright expires 70 (95?) years after the death of the author. 
It's a shame Sonny Bono hit that tree AFTER helping pass the copyright 
extentions him & Hollings (The honorable Senator from Disney!) got passed.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec  2 16:38:32 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:38:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <E3D0C804-E3D2-4BD3-993B-46F4D7EA9D0C@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent
 Hilpert" at Dec 1, 11 11:53:12 am
Message-ID: <m1RWbke-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 2011 Nov 30, at 12:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> >> MFM drives are not portable across controller models.  And at least
> >> sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given  
> >> model of
> >> controller.  Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the  
> >> cable
> >> to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits.
> >
> > Actually, it's analogue in the time domain
> 
> Not really. The pulses or flux transitions from the disk are in  
> discrete time slots relative to each other, albeit with some  
> fluctuation due to physical reality, but that fluctuation is not part  
> of the intended information content.

An ST506/ST412 drive records a magnetic transsiton on the disk for every 
leading edge of a pulse on the write data line. On reading, the magnetic 
transistons on the disk cause pulses on the read data line, the leading 
edge of which corresponds to the transsition.

Now, while there is obvisouly a maximium rate that you can write such 
pulses (and expect them to be read back correctly), and there is often a 
minimum rate too (due to the design of the read amplifier/filter), there 
is almost no other restriction that I know of on the pulse rate. You can 
essentailly put pulses  where you like. And in that sense it's analogue.

Yes, the data from any normal controller has only a few differnt pulse 
spacings (and IIRC the change from MFM to RLL encoding at this level 
allows for more different spacings), and thus on reading you'd expect to 
see only those pulse spacings (apart from mechanical jitter, magnetic 
effects (that's what write precomepensation is designed to correct), 
etc. But that's a restriction of the controller and not the drive, and 
there's no reason why _every_ controller has to be the same in this 
respsct, provided that it meets the  drive's requirements for minimum and 
maximum pulse spacing under all condtions (data to be written, etc). A 
general-purpose disk reader/archiver has to take account of this.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec  2 16:53:13 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:53:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <1147A59B-7C04-4E41-BC55-06E159DE4CA2@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent
 Hilpert" at Dec 1, 11 01:04:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1RWbyq-000J49C@p850ug1>

> In time, it was quantized when it was recorded and retains that  
> quantisation when read (note I said discrete time slots relative to  
> each other).

Well, it retains it modulo various timing errors which we've already 
discussed.

Hwowever, that is not my point. Yes, if you record time-quantized data, 
then you get time=-quantized data back. But nothign i nthe drive enforces 
that time quantization, other than having minumum nad maximum pulse 
separation times. 

Think of the following system -- nothign to do with disks. Suppose you 
have 2 old-fashionerd (really old-fashioned) modems. 300 baud Bell 103 
devices, say. The data input goes to the FSK modulator and selects one of 
2 frequencies. The output of that is fed down a telephone line to the 
demodulator at the other end which switches the receive data output 
appropriateyl. 

Now, is that receive data output time-quantized or not? 

My view is that when used in the conventional way to transfer 
asynchronous seiral data, the receiver data line is time-quantized withi 
na characeter (once you have the start bit, the other bits follow at 
reugalr time intervals), but not between characters (there is no 
requiement for the start bits of successive chracters to be separated by 
an integral number of cycles of the buad clock). And of course  I don't 
haev to send any form of serial data lon that link. I could wire the 
input to a simple 2-stat sesnor (say a light barrier) and say use it to 
signal when my cat enters my machine room. In that case it's a big 
stretch to say the output of the demodulator is time-quatized.

-tony



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec  2 17:36:34 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 15:36:34 -0800
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4ED96102.10708@brouhaha.com>

Gene Buckle wrote:
 > AFAIK, Copyright expires 70 (95?) years after the death of the author.

70 years after the death of the author.

For works of corporate authorship, 95 years from publication or 120 
years from creation, whichever expires first.

For more detail:
     http://copyright.cornell.edu/resources/publicdomain.cfm



From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec  2 18:31:47 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 17:31:47 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
Message-ID: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>

I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Dec  2 18:34:46 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 16:34:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED96102.10708@brouhaha.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4ED96102.10708@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021634320.4939@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Eric Smith wrote:

> Gene Buckle wrote:
>> AFAIK, Copyright expires 70 (95?) years after the death of the author.
>
> 70 years after the death of the author.
>
> For works of corporate authorship, 95 years from publication or 120 years 
> from creation, whichever expires first.
>
Either way, it's sickening.

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  2 18:53:55 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 16:53:55 -0800
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4ED902A3.25628.1D1CF40@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Dec 2011 at 14:55, Gene Buckle wrote:

> AFAIK, Copyright expires 70 (95?) years after the death of the author.
> It's a shame Sonny Bono hit that tree AFTER helping pass the copyright
> extentions him & Hollings (The honorable Senator from Disney!) got
> passed.

There are some backwaters.  For example, works published after 1923 
but before 1978 (IIRC) retain their copyright for 95 years.  So Mr. 
Disney's mouse is safe.

The actual term is probably academic, because as sure as there will 
be a tomorrow, the term will always be extended, now that the US 
Supreme Court has given its approval to the practice and Mr. Disney's 
mouse will forever remain protected.

In other words, as far as we in the US and of this epoch are 
concerned, copyright is forever.  

--Chuck



From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 19:20:20 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 20:20:20 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGVcoB0jUET7b=epD5=TrtJzNVpaEC4OumiZK5q04v0kfg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:31 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

> I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
> home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
> are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
> initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html


Nice! What are you going to do with all those Octanes?

I think the bulk of my collection is currently sitting on those same black
wire shelves purchased at Lowes for $50 each on sale :)

What's the kitty litter for?


From a50mhzham at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 19:23:01 2011
From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 19:23:01 -0600
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
Message-ID: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>

Interesting article about the 40th anniversary of 
the progenitor of many modern operating systems. 
It even mentions our very own Al Kossow,

"One holy grail that eluded us for a long time 
was the first edition of Unix in any form, 
electronic or otherwise. Then, in 2006, Al Kossow 
from the 
<http://www.computerhistory.org/>Computer History 
Museum, in Mountain View, Calif., unearthed a 
printed study of Unix dated 1972, which not only 
covered the internal workings of Unix but also 
included a complete assembly listing of the 
kernel, the main component of this operating 
system. This was an amazing find?like discovering 
an old Ford Model T collecting dust in a corner 
of a barn. But we didn't just want to admire the 
chrome work from afar. We wanted to see the thing run again."

http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/0

I love the picture of the very first man page.




601 . [Science] All science is either physics or 
stamp collecting. --Ernest (1st Baron) Rutherford (1871-1937)
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician 
? Registered Linux User 385531


From evan at snarc.net  Fri Dec  2 19:29:38 2011
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 20:29:38 -0500
Subject: Donner 3500 Manuals Posted
In-Reply-To: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>
References: <2c6931e1$280e69a2$241f2dd2$@com>
Message-ID: <4ED97B82.20107@snarc.net>


> I have received a few requests for the Donner 3500 instruction manual, which I have posted on my site, with related docs
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=421&tid=9
>
> It appears a few of these are popping out of the woodwork lately.  There are now at least 8 now known to exist, maybe more.
>
> Bill Degnan


Here's an advertisement for the 3500:
http://snarc.net/donner3500ad.jpg


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec  2 19:36:51 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:36:51 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGVcoB0jUET7b=epD5=TrtJzNVpaEC4OumiZK5q04v0kfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVcoB0jUET7b=epD5=TrtJzNVpaEC4OumiZK5q04v0kfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RWeX5-0007Dt-Mn@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAHG8iGVcoB0jUET7b=epD5=TrtJzNVpaEC4OumiZK5q04v0kfg at mail.gmail.com>,
    Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com> writes:

> On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 7:31 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> 
> > I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
> > home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
> > are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
> > initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html
> 
> Nice! What are you going to do with all those Octanes?

The exhibits in the museum are all intended to be interactive on real
hardware with ideally 4 seats of identical hardware per exhibit.  I
got a bunch of Octanes free for pickup from a cctalk list member in
Tucson (hi Mike).  So those will all be part of an Octane exhibit.
You want 4 working seats and enough spares to keep those 4 seats in
working order for a while.

> I think the bulk of my collection is currently sitting on those same black
> wire shelves purchased at Lowes for $50 each on sale :)

You can get black (and chrome) shelving like this at WalMart for $60
regular price.  (They used to be $40 before the fed started printing
trillions of dollars.)

> What's the kitty litter for?

See the recent thread on storing cables; I use them to store power
cords, SCSI cables, RS-232 cables, hard drives, etc.  They are
durable, watertight (assuming you don't submerge them), have
resealable lids and they stack with the bottom nesting in the lids of
the bucket underneath.  I just use a sharpie to write on the lid and
bucket what's inside.  They work great and since I have 2 cats, I'm
always buying litter in these buckets anyway.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec  2 19:58:09 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 12:58:09 +1100
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4ED98231.5080803@telegraphics.com.au>

On 03/12/11 12:23 PM, Tom wrote:
> Interesting article about the 40th anniversary of the progenitor of many
> modern operating systems. It even mentions our very own Al Kossow,
>
> "One holy grail that eluded us for a long time was the first edition of
> Unix in any form, electronic or otherwise. Then, in 2006, Al Kossow from
> the <http://www.computerhistory.org/>Computer History Museum, in
> Mountain View, Calif., unearthed a printed study of Unix dated 1972,
> which not only covered the internal workings of Unix but also included a
> complete assembly listing of the kernel, the main component of this

Then there is the Lions book (Copyright 1977, a Commentary on Unix 6th 
Edition), reprinted as a modern facsimile edition by Peer-to-Peer 
Communications in 1996, with a foreword by Dennis Ritchie.

> operating system. This was an amazing find?like discovering an old Ford
> Model T collecting dust in a corner of a barn. But we didn't just want
> to admire the chrome work from afar. We wanted to see the thing run again."
>
> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/0
>
>
> I love the picture of the very first man page.

Knock yourself out:
  * http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/
  * http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man1

This is a masterpiece of concision:
http://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V1/man/man1/date.1

--Toby


>
>
>
>
> 601 . [Science] All science is either physics or stamp collecting.
> --Ernest (1st Baron) Rutherford (1871-1937)
> NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
> "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
> 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
> LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician ? Registered Linux
> User 385531
>



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec  2 20:03:21 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 21:03:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED8E444.29927.15B2B8C@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, 
 <4ED8B86F.9935.AFF3F2@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4ED92D07.9010308@netscape.net>
 <4ED8E444.29927.15B2B8C@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201112030203.VAA03968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> A not-well-known tidbit is that Mary Bono thought that copyrights
> should be perpetual.  Evidently, she'd not read the US Constitution.

Does it prohibit thinking things should be other than the way they are?

> As Fred observed, you will be long dead by the time the copyright
> expires on OS/2.

Actually, that's not really knowable, because that time is ill-defined.
Copyright expiration varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, so there
is no single "time the copyright expires on OS/2", not unless and until
it's qualified by jurisdiction - or everyone's law is changed to agree,
which I pray will never happen.  ((a) monocultures are evil; (b) I
still hold some faint hope the `intellectual property' bug will fixed
rather than spread even more widely.)

There is some commonality, under the Berne convention and its ilk, but
mercifully it does not eman the rest of the world has to suffer the
US's perpetual copyright mistake.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Fri Dec  2 20:20:27 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:20:27 -0800
Subject: Looking for Vaxstation 3100 model 30 RAM expansion
Message-ID: <4ED9876B.1000705@mail.msu.edu>

I know I kind of touched on this in my earlier diagnostic query, but I 
thought I'd send out a more obvious request:

Anyone have a memory expansion for a Vaxstation 3100 (model 30) they're 
willing to part with?  Something 8MB or larger would be wonderful.  I 
have a wide variety of DEC (and other) hardware to trade.

Thanks as always,
Josh


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Dec  2 20:16:17 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 02:16:17 +0000
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4ED98671.1050902@dunnington.plus.com>

Mr Ian Primus wrote:
> --- On Thu, 12/1/11, Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>
> wrote:
> 
>> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a
>> 3.5in hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be
>> connected to a SCSI bus?
> 
> Maybe. I personally don't see the need though, as SCSI hard drives
> are so incredibly common that I don't see the need to make
> replacements for them. Maybe in ten years, but at the moment, SCSI
> disks are plentiful.

Not small ones, though.

> What *would* be incredibly useful (albeit much more complicated)
> would be a modern replacement for an ST506 type drive - something
> that is getting harder to come by.

I'd vote for one of those.  I'd even pay for one of those :-)

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  2 20:45:56 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:45:56 -0800
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <201112030203.VAA03968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
 <4ED8E444.29927.15B2B8C@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <201112030203.VAA03968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4ED91CE4.16652.2385DC5@cclist.sydex.com>

On 2 Dec 2011 at 21:03, Mouse wrote:

> > A not-well-known tidbit is that Mary Bono thought that copyrights
> > should be perpetual.  Evidently, she'd not read the US Constitution.
> 
> Does it prohibit thinking things should be other than the way they
> are?

No, it's not contrary, but it betrays her ignorance as a legislator.  
To wit, section 8:

"To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for 
limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their 
respective Writings and Discoveries;'

Note the phrase "limited times".  I respectfully submit that "in 
perpetuity" is not "limited".  For a federal legislator to make this 
mistake just demonstrates that anyone can get elected to public 
office.

> > As Fred observed, you will be long dead by the time the copyright
> > expires on OS/2.
> 
> Actually, that's not really knowable, because that time is
> ill-defined. Copyright expiration varies from jurisdiction to
> jurisdiction,.

Since we were talking about US copyright, I feel secure in that the 
period is well-defined, barring global catastrophe.  Should that 
occur, I doubt that the rights to OS/2 will not even be remotely near 
the top of the list of topics to be considered for survival.

--Chuck



From useddec at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 20:50:11 2011
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 20:50:11 -0600
Subject: Looking for Vaxstation 3100 model 30 RAM expansion
In-Reply-To: <4ED9876B.1000705@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4ED9876B.1000705@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuNceEq=C+HSS_3sKKBNFswpojQMehejDpQuFYV6D_+mjg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Josh,

I should have some here in a box with the 5000 memory I'm looking for
for another
list member. The search hopefully resumes tomorrow.

Thanks, Paul


On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 8:20 PM, Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu> wrote:
> I know I kind of touched on this in my earlier diagnostic query, but I
> thought I'd send out a more obvious request:
>
> Anyone have a memory expansion for a Vaxstation 3100 (model 30) they're
> willing to part with? ?Something 8MB or larger would be wonderful. ?I have a
> wide variety of DEC (and other) hardware to trade.
>
> Thanks as always,
> Josh



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 20:52:41 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 02:52:41 +0000
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEpsdZeaZKg0EbHhdu7NP6Ku9fjsjqaj85j1BSJZNZ8mg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 December 2011 19:04, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote:
> Sam,
>
> I believe the IBM-Microsoft collaboration lasted thru 1.1. Not sure about
> 1.2 or 1.3. Version 2.0 and later were pure IBM, although any legacy code
> from the earlier versions had a joint copyright.

AFAIK, all OS/2 1.x versions were joint products.

OS/2 2.x was IBM alone, but contained lots of MS code, so IBM could
not open-source it or anything.

> Gee, that copyright should
> have expired now - it been 20+ years...

Ahahahaha!

As an Alan Cox T-shirt I got free from him on Red Hat's UK Geek Day
back in the '90s says:

"US Patent Office: selling monopoly rights to common sense for 205 years."

(Or somewhere in that region.)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec  2 20:52:52 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:52:52 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>

Nobody has spoken up for anything below.

All the THINK/Symantec stuff will probably go to recycling if I don't 
hear before 7 Dec. The other books will go into storage.

I also have, in binder,
  * AppleFax? Modem Developer's Guide, 112pp

--Toby


On 30/11/11 11:31 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> Macintosh Revealed - Programming with the Toolbox (Chernicoff) - Vol 2 -
> Apple Press/Hayden
>
> THINK C Object-Oriented Programming Manual - 1991
>
> THINK C Standard Libraries Reference - 1991
>
> THINK Reference - User Manual - 1991
>
> THINK Reference - User Manual - v2.0 - 1992
>
> THINK C User Manual - 1991
>
> LAN WorkPlace for Macintosh User's Guide - First Edition - Oct 1992
>
> HyperTalk Programming (Daniel G. Shafer) "includes Version 1.1" - Hayden
> Books - 1988
>
> Symantec C++ Compiler Guide v 6 - 1993
>
> THINK C for Macintosh (THINK Class Library Guide) - v 6 1993
>
> Symantec Think C for Macintosh User's Guide - v 6 1993
>
> Symantec C++ For Macintosh (Compiler Guide) - v 7 1994
>
> Symantec C++ for Macintosh (Visual Architect & THINK Class Library
> Guide) - v 7 1994
>
> Symantec THINK C for Macintosh (User's Guide) - 1994
>
> Steven Levy, Insanely Great: "The Life And Times of Macintosh, The
> Computer that Changed Everything" - with stamp "Publication/Embargo
> Date, 1 May 1995, Penguin Books Australia Ltd."
>
> Learning Cocoa (O'Reilly) - May 2001 First Edition
>
> Using the Macintosh Toolbox with C - Takatsuka/Huxham/Burnard - Sybex 1986
>
>
>
> While these are in Melbourne, Australia, if paid by PayPal I can ship
> anywhere, advise country/city/postal code/zip, and whether surface
> (60-90 days) or air, but please let me know ASAP. I can't ship anything
> after about Tuesday 6th Dec.
>
> --T
>



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 20:58:52 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 02:58:52 +0000
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED92B60.20208@netscape.net>
References: <CAFBDFAF.93E2%iank@vulcan.com>
	<4ED92B60.20208@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHk5yJBHxZk_R0JqOS9dkLRv_vKvsf4LgZy-pZVMZJ6pg@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 December 2011 19:47, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote:
> Ian,
>
> There are differences between the IBM and Microsoft versions of OS/2 with
> the networking being the key difference.


I am not sure that this was the case. I think it was just badging -
c.f. MS-DOS versus IBM PC DOS.

> There was also a 3COM version of
> OS/2 that is even more rare than Microsoft's.

Ha! I was trained in that. Still have the certification somewhere.
3Com 3+Open, the successor to 3+Share.

3+Open was OS/2 1 plus an enhanced version of LAN Manager. It was a
server-only product. Good, but only if you had OS/2 clients.

> The 3COM version uses DIX or
> "true Ethernet" (with capital E) rather than 802.3. Most of the code for
> OS/2 server came from 3COM - it was the contract with Microsoft that
> eventually cost Bob Metcalfe his job.

To quote Ben Goldacre's classic T-shirt:

http://badscience2.spreadshirt.co.uk/i-think-you-ll-find-it-s-a-bit-more-white-text-A18169089/customize/color/4

For the graphics-impaired, it says: "I think you'll find it's a bit
more complicated than that."

It's a good answer to almost /any/ asserted fact. :?)

LAN Manager was the IBM/MS networking stack, derived in part from the
IBM PC Network, as was the DOS-based 3Com 3+Share. It doesn't really
matter what the name was, AFAIK - it's always LanMan underneath.
LanMan also ran on VMS and Unix and AFAIK IBM had no hand in those
versions.

AFAIK the relationship between the server editions of OS/2 and the
clients was much the same as NT Workstation versus NT Server: same
core code, but one version is cut-down and the other enhanced.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 21:00:54 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 03:00:54 +0000
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED92BE5.7020801@netscape.net>
References: <AANLkTimcVGZSKTbcFxv+DtgsiQWKr6k7U56woygJM0Wq@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED5401B.5020400@netscape.net>
 <CAMTenCEtzRCtnawqs6LT3tu1Zu_J++BXNU2jEWNKEbk4Oaja=g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED92BE5.7020801@netscape.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEHB071bKWnKBX76cA8EPtW6AvsdTbBh_9neaj=OoFTWQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 2 December 2011 19:49, Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net> wrote:
> Liam,
>
> Thanks for this pointer. Now if I can just get an account on that system, we
> might make some progress - assuming the disk images are really what they
> claim to be. My bet is they will all be the IBM version.

Seriously, whereas I don't remember a lot *now*, in the late '80s, I
was Mr OS/2 for my company.

TTBOMK the main difference between IBM OS/2 1.x and MS OS/2 1.x is the
label on the disk and the names on the loading screen.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 21:08:36 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 03:08:36 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.

I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
longer does surface post. :(

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec  2 21:16:39 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 22:16:39 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED91CE4.16652.2385DC5@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED8E444.29927.15B2B8C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <201112030203.VAA03968@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4ED91CE4.16652.2385DC5@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201112030316.WAA04984@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> A not-well-known tidbit is that Mary Bono thought that copyrights
>>> should be perpetual.  Evidently, she'd not read the US
>>> Constitution.
>> Does it prohibit thinking things should be other than the way they
>> are?
> No, it's not contrary, but it betrays her ignorance as a legislator.

I still disagree with the original comment.

I can't see knowing what the US Constitution says as inconsistent with
saying, or even thinking, it should be otherwise.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec  2 21:36:20 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:36:20 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>

On 03/12/11 2:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>
> I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
> international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
> longer does surface post. :(
>

Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.

...they still exist, right? :/


--Toby


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec  2 21:57:02 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:57:02 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4ED99E0E.3090306@telegraphics.com.au>

On 03/12/11 1:52 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>
> All the THINK/Symantec stuff will probably go to recycling if I don't
> hear before 7 Dec. The other books will go into storage.
>
> I also have, in binder,
> * AppleFax? Modem Developer's Guide, 112pp

One more thing:

Spiral bound book,

"Installing Software with Apollo's Release and Installation Tools," 
Order No. 00860-A00
   "This manual is intended for use with Software Release 10 of the 
Domain?/OS operating system and with optional products released at or 
after SR10..."

Will post anything mentioned here.

--Toby


>
> --Toby
>
>
> On 30/11/11 11:31 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> Macintosh Revealed - Programming with the Toolbox (Chernicoff) - Vol 2 -
>> Apple Press/Hayden
>>
>> THINK C Object-Oriented Programming Manual - 1991
>>
>> THINK C Standard Libraries Reference - 1991
>>
>> THINK Reference - User Manual - 1991
>>
>> THINK Reference - User Manual - v2.0 - 1992
>>
>> THINK C User Manual - 1991
>>
>> LAN WorkPlace for Macintosh User's Guide - First Edition - Oct 1992
>>
>> HyperTalk Programming (Daniel G. Shafer) "includes Version 1.1" - Hayden
>> Books - 1988
>>
>> Symantec C++ Compiler Guide v 6 - 1993
>>
>> THINK C for Macintosh (THINK Class Library Guide) - v 6 1993
>>
>> Symantec Think C for Macintosh User's Guide - v 6 1993
>>
>> Symantec C++ For Macintosh (Compiler Guide) - v 7 1994
>>
>> Symantec C++ for Macintosh (Visual Architect & THINK Class Library
>> Guide) - v 7 1994
>>
>> Symantec THINK C for Macintosh (User's Guide) - 1994
>>
>> Steven Levy, Insanely Great: "The Life And Times of Macintosh, The
>> Computer that Changed Everything" - with stamp "Publication/Embargo
>> Date, 1 May 1995, Penguin Books Australia Ltd."
>>
>> Learning Cocoa (O'Reilly) - May 2001 First Edition
>>
>> Using the Macintosh Toolbox with C - Takatsuka/Huxham/Burnard - Sybex
>> 1986
>>
>>
>>
>> While these are in Melbourne, Australia, if paid by PayPal I can ship
>> anywhere, advise country/city/postal code/zip, and whether surface
>> (60-90 days) or air, but please let me know ASAP. I can't ship anything
>> after about Tuesday 6th Dec.
>>
>> --T
>>
>
>



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  2 22:04:59 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 20:04:59 -0800
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEpsdZeaZKg0EbHhdu7NP6Ku9fjsjqaj85j1BSJZNZ8mg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>,
 <CAMTenCEpsdZeaZKg0EbHhdu7NP6Ku9fjsjqaj85j1BSJZNZ8mg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4ED92F6B.5889.280BD5B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 3 Dec 2011 at 2:52, Liam Proven wrote:

> OS/2 2.x was IBM alone, but contained lots of MS code, so IBM could
> not open-source it or anything.

It's worthwhile perusing Section VI of the "OS/2 Notebook" from 
Microsoft Press (1990, ISBN 1-55615-316-3) that starts off on the 
subject of OS/2 2.0 with an interview with Jim Cannavino and Bill 
Gates.

It's not clear who was doing what, although Microsoft appeared to be 
involved.  Some quotes from Mr. G:

"Microsoft has not changed any of its plans for Windows.  It is 
obvious that we will not include things like threads and preemptive 
multitasking in Windows."

"After mid-1990, Microsoft will ship PM versions of applications at 
the same time or before Windows versions.  We can see the opportunity 
to create much better applications under OS/2."

"The goal for OS/2 is to be the universal operating system, 
supporting every application ever done for DOS, the Macintosh, minis, 
Unix and Windows."

"OS/2 is our top priority.  We are still in boot-strap mode.  We have 
a very aggressive goal to sell one million units."

FWIW,
Chuck
 


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Fri Dec  2 22:07:21 2011
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 23:07:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112022306420.584@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Richard wrote:

> I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
> home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
> are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
> initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html>

    I haven't seen that many HP terminals in one place since my HP 3000 
days!


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Fri Dec  2 22:22:59 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Fri, 02 Dec 2011 21:22:59 -0700
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/2/2011 8:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 03/12/11 2:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>>> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>>
>> I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
>> international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
>> longer does surface post. :(
>>
>
> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>
> ...they still exist, right? :/
>

Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
Nor do libraries.

> --Toby
>
>



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Fri Dec  2 22:26:55 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 20:26:55 -0800
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <p0624081ecaff552faa18@[192.168.1.157]>

At 5:31 PM -0700 12/2/11, Richard wrote:
>I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
>home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
>are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
>initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html>

Good Heavens!  And I thought I had storage problems! :-)

What really stands out is some very serious SGI Hardware.  I'm 
envious of those Octanes.  I only have a pair of o2's.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec  2 22:42:22 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 15:42:22 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED9A8AE.1070708@telegraphics.com.au>

On 03/12/11 3:22 PM, ben wrote:
> On 12/2/2011 8:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 03/12/11 2:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>>>> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>>>
>>> I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
>>> international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
>>> longer does surface post. :(
>>>
>>
>> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>>
>> ...they still exist, right? :/
>>
>
> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
> Nor do libraries.

Non-technical histories like Insanely Great are in a slightly different 
category, though. You can find them in bookstores.

--T

>
>> --Toby
>>
>>
>
>



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  2 22:44:40 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2011 23:44:40 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED98671.1050902@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED98671.1050902@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <45E11774-7BF2-42E8-A752-FBB5D6EF4650@gmail.com>



On Dec 2, 2011, at 21:16, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:

> Mr Ian Primus wrote:
>> 
>> What *would* be incredibly useful (albeit much more complicated)
>> would be a modern replacement for an ST506 type drive - something
>> that is getting harder to come by.
> 
> I'd vote for one of those.  I'd even pay for one of those :-)

Hm. That sounds like a fun project. I don't know if that would be all *that* complex... It would be worth looking into, though I don't have any real hardware to compare with.

-Dave


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec  2 23:46:24 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:46:24 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com>

On 12/02/2011 11:22 PM, ben wrote:
> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
> Nor do libraries.

   Huh?  I buy good computer books in used bookstores all the time.  As 
recently as last week.  Crack?

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Dec  3 02:05:27 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 01:05:27 -0700
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/2/2011 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/02/2011 11:22 PM, ben wrote:
>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>> Nor do libraries.
>
> Huh? I buy good computer books in used bookstores all the time. As
> recently as last week. Crack?

Good pick me a good book on computer hardware ... skip the intel products,
windows and unix clones. What is left in the classic department?

> -Dave
>



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sat Dec  3 02:35:01 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 00:35:01 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <m1RWbke-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RWbke-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <AECC4F0A-9255-41B2-B51A-D9C739C9FFFE@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 2, at 2:38 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>> On 2011 Nov 30, at 12:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>>> MFM drives are not portable across controller models.  And at least
>>>> sometimes, they're not even portable across examples of a given
>>>> model of
>>>> controller.  Remember that the _analog_ waveform is passed up the
>>>> cable
>>>> to the controller, where the discriminator turns it back into bits.
>>>
>>> Actually, it's analogue in the time domain
>>
>> Not really. The pulses or flux transitions from the disk are in
>> discrete time slots relative to each other, albeit with some
>> fluctuation due to physical reality, but that fluctuation is not part
>> of the intended information content.
>
> An ST506/ST412 drive records a magnetic transsiton on the disk for  
> every
> leading edge of a pulse on the write data line. On reading, the  
> magnetic
> transistons on the disk cause pulses on the read data line, the  
> leading
> edge of which corresponds to the transsition.
>
> Now, while there is obvisouly a maximium rate that you can write such
> pulses (and expect them to be read back correctly), and there is  
> often a
> minimum rate too (due to the design of the read amplifier/filter),  
> there
> is almost no other restriction that I know of on the pulse rate.  
> You can
> essentailly put pulses  where you like. And in that sense it's  
> analogue.
>
> Yes, the data from any normal controller has only a few differnt pulse
> spacings (and IIRC the change from MFM to RLL encoding at this level
> allows for more different spacings), and thus on reading you'd  
> expect to
> see only those pulse spacings (apart from mechanical jitter, magnetic
> effects (that's what write precomepensation is designed to correct),
> etc. But that's a restriction of the controller and not the drive, and
> there's no reason why _every_ controller has to be the same in this
> respsct, provided that it meets the  drive's requirements for  
> minimum and
> maximum pulse spacing under all condtions (data to be written, etc). A
> general-purpose disk reader/archiver has to take account of this.

I think we all agree that the 'analog' assessment (more accurately  
fine-grained discrete sampling) performed by a disk reader/archiver  
of the transition timing of the signal from the disk is useful. That  
one can record transitions onto the disk more or less arbitrarily in  
time, that there may be multiple recording formats, is another  
motivation - as you say - for the analog assessment.

In my response however, I was distinguishing between the assessment  
of the signal and the properties of the signal, as your response had  
alluded to the latter, although we also have the two perspectives to  
consider of the agglomeration of possible signals from all disks  
versus a given instance. Leaving aside the low probability or  
occurrence of someone using the disk for analog PWM or PPM recording,  
and other opinions notwithstanding (other thread), I do not consider  
a given instance of a (typical) amplitude-normalised (to two states)  
read signal from the disk to be analog in the time domain, but from  
your other message I think we agree on that.

In the analogy with the FSK modem in your other message then: simply  
put, whether the demodulated signal is time-quantised depends on the  
properties of the modulating signal.



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Dec  3 02:57:22 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 00:57:22 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <AECC4F0A-9255-41B2-B51A-D9C739C9FFFE@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <m1RWbke-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <AECC4F0A-9255-41B2-B51A-D9C739C9FFFE@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4ED9E472.8010800@brouhaha.com>

Brent Hilpert wrote:
 > In the analogy with the FSK modem in your other message
 > then: simply put, whether the demodulated signal is time-quantised
 > depends on the properties of the modulating signal.

I still find that I can't agree with your definition of quantization as 
applied to signals.  In particular, you seem to think that quantization 
is a characteristic of the content of the signal, while I consider it a 
characteristic of the representation of the signal.

Here are a few questions as part one of a thought experiment:

I go to a concert hall and listen to music performed on a (mechanical) 
piano.  Is the sound in the concert hall quantized?

I take my Olympus LS11 PCM audio recorder with me to the concert hall, 
and with the LS11 sticking out of my shirt pocket, record the concert 
from my seat, using stereo 96 kHz 24-bit sampling with the built-in 
microphones.

Is the PCM recording in the flash memory of the LS11 quantized?

When I get home, I play back the recording through a DAC, reconstruction 
filter, amplifier, and speaker, and listen sitting in my easy chair.  As 
I listen to the playback, is the signal from the output of the speaker 
(sound waves) quantized?

Is the signal impinging on my ears (sound waves) quantized?

Note that the sound waves at my ear are not identical to those at the 
speaker, and that it would be relatively difficult to exactly 
reconstruct those at the speaker from those at my ear.  If you were to 
say that the sound waves at the speaker are quantized, does the 
distortion introduced by the "channel" the signal passes through, 
between the speaker and my ear, make any difference to your opinion as 
to whether the signal at my ear is quantized?

I have further questions for part two of the thought experiment, after 
we've considered part one.

Eric



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 08:19:12 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 09:19:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4ED96102.10708@brouhaha.com>
References: <1322674508.51377.YahooMailClassic@web161202.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
 <4ED9213A.1070908@netscape.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112021453370.1098@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4ED96102.10708@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112030918010.6933@duo>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, Eric Smith wrote:

> Gene Buckle wrote:
>> AFAIK, Copyright expires 70 (95?) years after the death of the author.
>
> 70 years after the death of the author.
>
> For works of corporate authorship, 95 years from publication or 120 years 
> from creation, whichever expires first.

Or until Disney Corp. stops purchasing congress-critters.  When is Mickey 
Mouse coming up to copyright expiration again?



-- 



From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 07:34:48 2011
From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 06:34:48 -0700
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <CAOPi=7DqKmSmo8xdeGUJRxV96RxsBXe53vo4C5ZwS-Ukmw+ucQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 2, 2011 9:23 PM, "ben" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
>
> On 12/2/2011 8:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>
>> On 03/12/11 2:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
>>> international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
>>> longer does surface post. :(
>>>
>>
>> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>>
>> ...they still exist, right? :/
>>
>
> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
> Nor do libraries.
>
>> --Toby
>>
>>
>

My local used bookstore has an enormous selection of computer books... I
most recently picked up copies of the Amiga ROM Kernel Manuals, the
programmer manuals for the 68000, 020, and 030, and a copy of the VARM.

They also have a long wall of shelves crammed full of databooks, from TTL
to CMOS, with everything in between.

jpw


From lynchaj at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  3 09:29:50 2011
From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 07:29:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: S-100 8086 CPU boards available
Message-ID: <1322926190.38214.YahooMailClassic@web180211.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hi!  The S-100 8086 CPU boards are available for a limited time.  Most of the boards are already committed to builders but there are some extras.  They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere.  Please send a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board

http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board.htm




From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec  3 09:44:24 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>


I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems to
understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the start
address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
Can anyone please confirm this?

BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?

Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?

Kind Regards and thanks in advance,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From lynchaj at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  3 09:47:34 2011
From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 07:47:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
Message-ID: <1322927254.4460.YahooMailClassic@web180209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

>SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
>Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com 
>Thu Dec 1 22:36:45 CST 2011 
>
>Previous message: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer) 
>Next message: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer) 
>Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] 
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Reading the vcforum thread mentioned earlier, Andrew noted there was a 
>previous cctalk SCSI->SD discussion here, but that it died out.  What 
>happened there?
>
>JIm
>
>
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Hi Jim!  Thanks!  Although the SCSI to IDE/SD project is going slowly I did get about 20 PCBs earlier this year.  So far we've gotten some builds underway and at least one builder has gotten the board to run Zapple as a debug monitor as a "proof of life".

The project is quite a ways and is nearly complete.  All it needs is some community involvement to push it to completion.  In particular, it needs verification of the IDE, SD, and SCSI interfaces.  Then it will need some firmware to handle the conversion.

The main advantage of the project is that it is completely open and free.  If there is sufficient interest, I will order another batch of PCBs or try to get those builders with incomplete PCBs to swap them out.

In my opinion, this project is nearly complete and the shortest path to a working SCSI to IDE/SD converter.  All it needs is some TLC and push from the community.  As per the usual N8VEM guidelines this board uses all commonly available parts and is designed to be simple to assemble using basic tools.

Please help finish this project.  I sincerely think it will be valuable for years to come and it would be nice to discuss an actual converter during this frequent topic on CCTALK.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

PS, I recognise the microcontroller/FPGA/CPLD approach is valid but they never seem to get off the drawing board.





http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?22906-SCSI-1-to-from-IDE-drive-converter

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?25989-Another-round-of-SCSI-to-IDE-CF-SD-prototype-boards

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=MINI%20SCSI%20to%20IDE%20prototypes




From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Dec  3 11:02:22 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 09:02:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com> from Dave McGuire at "Dec 3,
 11 00:46:24 am"
Message-ID: <201112031702.pB3H2MpB013390@floodgap.com>

> Crack?

No, thanks, I had some earlier.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- A good pun is its own reword. ----------------------------------------------


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 11:29:38 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 12:29:38 -0500
Subject: Does anyone have docs for a Ventel brand MD212-plus modem?
Message-ID: <CAALmim=i3sQLm_vUTEeHxgihnDw-iQ1a2bgZ+FVwpPPnxw9vRg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi, All,

A friend of mine just returned a modem he got from me decades ago, a
Ventel MD212-plus.  It's an early-1980s non-AT-command-set
autodialling modem.  The settings are adjusted via a pair of 10-pin
DIP switches accessible from the back.  I've checked the web and
bitsavers.  So far, all I've found is some old Usenet articles and a
couple of pictures, but no manual or jumper guide.

One "feature" is that it lacks a modular jack to plug into the phone
system.  Fortunately, my friend kept the proprietary DA15 cable.  I've
never seen that choice of connectors on any other modem.

Does anyone have any Ventel docs?

Thanks,

-ethan


From jgessling at yahoo.com  Sat Dec  3 11:37:11 2011
From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 09:37:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: VT100, PDT 11/150
Message-ID: <1322933831.47113.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Looking through some pictures my sister in law had brought over.? Everyone was ooing and ahhing about the cute kids, except me.? I noticed in the background of one my old DEC PDT 11/150 and a VT100.? Circa 1982 those were the latest and with a modem allowed me to log in to the VAX at work.? Good stuff!? Also a Heathkit H19 terminal that I had built from a kit.


The PDT 11/150 was an LSI-11 single board computer stacked on top of 2 8in floppies.? That thing really clattered when I ran it.? I had bought a UCSD P-system for it from a UCSD spin off that supported that box.? The PASCAL was compatible with the Apple II so it was actually useful.? I wrote a 2D gravity modeling program for it that my boss ran on his Apple II to his hearts content without any mainframe charges.?? 


I can even remember how much it all cost.? The PASCAL system was $500, the H19 $500.? The VT100 and modem were loaners from work, the PDT 11 was free, DEC was giving them away to good customers, I suppose because they couldn't sell them.? Good times.

Regards, Jim


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 12:27:32 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 18:27:32 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG2WE6r-+Z=HC6y6UGFQhgTTRr2f=Dj2mShmRQsyArF4g@mail.gmail.com>

On 3 December 2011 03:36, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 03/12/11 2:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>>
>>
>> I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
>> international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
>> longer does surface post. :(
>>
>
> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>
> ...they still exist, right? :/

Yeah, London has a fair few. Oddly, though, the specialists are
getting quite expensive now. Charity shops are the only place for
cheap books, but they almost exclusively deal in trashy fiction,
celebrity books and coffee-table picture books.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Dec  3 12:56:37 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 10:56:37 -0800
Subject: VT100, PDT 11/150
In-Reply-To: <1322933831.47113.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <1322933831.47113.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EDA70E5.8050403@brouhaha.com>

James Gessling wrote about the PDT-11/150:
 > I had bought a UCSD P-system for it from a UCSD spin off that 
supported that box.

Do you still  have a copy of that?



From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Dec  3 13:10:20 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:10:20 -0600
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG2WE6r-+Z=HC6y6UGFQhgTTRr2f=Dj2mShmRQsyArF4g@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCG2WE6r-+Z=HC6y6UGFQhgTTRr2f=Dj2mShmRQsyArF4g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112031915.pB3JFmqq005795@billy.ezwind.net>

At 12:27 PM 12/3/2011, Liam Proven wrote:
>On 3 December 2011 03:36, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>>
>> ...they still exist, right? :/
>
>Yeah, London has a fair few. Oddly, though, the specialists are
>getting quite expensive now. Charity shops are the only place for
>cheap books, but they almost exclusively deal in trashy fiction,
>celebrity books and coffee-table picture books.


Does Hay-on-Wye, (Y Gelli Gandryll), the famous Wales book town, have 
a shop dedicated to tech or classic computing?

I've had dinner with King Richard Booth once or twice.  He had the
idea to buy up all those shipping containers of old books otherwise 
destined for the pulper, and sorting them by topic and creating
used book shops throughout that city.

I have a similar pile of old Mac Think C era books and Mac developer
program newsletters.  And then there's all the MSDN CDs and C compiler
stuffs from various PC compilers.  Not quite sure what to do with it all.

- John



From alexeyt at freeshell.org  Sat Dec  3 13:39:47 2011
From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 19:39:47 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112031931540.14800@sdf.lonestar.org>

On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, ben wrote:

> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.

In the last 6 months, I have gotten the following from used book stores:

Programming Languages: History and Fundamentals - Jean E Sammet
Software Engineering with ADA - Grady Booch
Logic System Design Handbook (1972 edition) - DIGITAL
Smalltalk-80 the language - Adele Goldberg and David Robinson
Fortran-77 for Engineers and Scientists - Larry Nyhoff and Sanford Leestma
Minicomputers: Hardware, Software and Applications - IEEE press, edited by
   James D Schoeffler and Ronald H Temple

None of these were stores specialising in engineering books - just 
perfectly ordinary second hand bookstores. You have to spend some time 
looking, but there are plenty of good used computer books out there.

 			Alexey


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 13:45:18 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 20:45:18 +0100
Subject: VT100, PDT 11/150
In-Reply-To: <4EDA70E5.8050403@brouhaha.com>
References: <1322933831.47113.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <4EDA70E5.8050403@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi-BRj_HuGQFKMpMXbBkTk1q8tkvasaWGAM3ZtsOdvJJWg@mail.gmail.com>

I'd be interested too!
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/3 Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com>

> James Gessling wrote about the PDT-11/150:
>
> > I had bought a UCSD P-system for it from a UCSD spin off that supported
> that box.
>
> Do you still  have a copy of that?
>
>


From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Dec  3 13:32:32 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 13:32:32 -0600
Subject: VT100, PDT 11/150
In-Reply-To: <4EDA70E5.8050403@brouhaha.com>
References: <1322933831.47113.YahooMailNeo@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <4EDA70E5.8050403@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <201112031947.pB3Jlmj4006259@billy.ezwind.net>

At 12:56 PM 12/3/2011, Eric Smith wrote:
>James Gessling wrote about the PDT-11/150:
>> I had bought a UCSD P-system for it from a UCSD spin off that supported that box.
>
>Do you still  have a copy of that?


And which company is he referring to?

- John




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec  3 16:41:43 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 09:41:43 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112031931540.14800@sdf.lonestar.org>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112031931540.14800@sdf.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <4EDAA5A7.4050105@telegraphics.com.au>

On 04/12/11 6:39 AM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
> On Fri, 2 Dec 2011, ben wrote:
>
>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>
> In the last 6 months, I have gotten the following from used book stores:
>
> Programming Languages: History and Fundamentals - Jean E Sammet
> Software Engineering with ADA - Grady Booch
> Logic System Design Handbook (1972 edition) - DIGITAL
> Smalltalk-80 the language - Adele Goldberg and David Robinson
> Fortran-77 for Engineers and Scientists - Larry Nyhoff and Sanford Leestma
> Minicomputers: Hardware, Software and Applications - IEEE press, edited by
> James D Schoeffler and Ronald H Temple
>

Nice haul! I'm jelly.

--Toby

> None of these were stores specialising in engineering books - just
> perfectly ordinary second hand bookstores. You have to spend some time
> looking, but there are plenty of good used computer books out there.
>
> Alexey
>



From pontus at update.uu.se  Sat Dec  3 16:50:56 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 23:50:56 +0100
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
Message-ID: <4EDAA7D0.8010705@update.uu.se>

Hi

If you live close to Gothenburg and can act within a few days I know of 
some medium sized alpha and small vax machines available for pickup. 
VT100 and VT520 terminals also.

Contact me offlist.

Regards,
Pontus.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec  3 16:52:33 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 09:52:33 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com> <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>

On 03/12/11 7:05 PM, ben wrote:
> On 12/2/2011 10:46 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>> On 12/02/2011 11:22 PM, ben wrote:
>>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>>> Nor do libraries.
>>
>> Huh? I buy good computer books in used bookstores all the time. As
>> recently as last week. Crack?
>
> Good pick me a good book on computer hardware ... skip the intel products,
> windows and unix clones. What is left in the classic department?

Anything *specific* can be found on http://abebooks.com/ for example; 
but their listing sources are all ... brick and mortar stores. Go figure. :)

--T

>
>> -Dave
>>
>
>



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec  3 16:03:56 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:03:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <AECC4F0A-9255-41B2-B51A-D9C739C9FFFE@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent
 Hilpert" at Dec 3, 11 00:35:01 am
Message-ID: <m1RWxgk-000J48C@p850ug1>

> In my response however, I was distinguishing between the assessment  
> of the signal and the properties of the signal, as your response had  
> alluded to the latter, although we also have the two perspectives to  
> consider of the agglomeration of possible signals from all disks  
> versus a given instance. Leaving aside the low probability or  
> occurrence of someone using the disk for analog PWM or PPM recording,  
> and other opinions notwithstanding (other thread), I do not consider  
> a given instance of a (typical) amplitude-normalised (to two states)  
> read signal from the disk to be analog in the time domain, but from  
> your other message I think we agree on that.

I think the difference between our approachies is that you're 
consisderign a drive and a particular controller combination, I am 
considering jus tthe drive.

I agree that the data sent from any normal controller to th edrive when 
writing (or formatting) is time-quantized. And that the data read back 
from the drive is similar, modulo a bit of jitter and the magnetic 
effects that perecompensation is designed to compensate for. 

However, sicen ST506 is a low-level 'raw' interface, you can't assume the 
time quatization is the same for all possible controllers. Sicne the 
pulse spacing could be any vlaue between given limits (although a 
particlar contoller will only use a few differnet psacings), I feel the 
drive itslef  is analogue in the time domain.


> 
> In the analogy with the FSK modem in your other message then: simply  
> put, whether the demodulated signal is time-quantised depends on the  
> properties of the modulating signal.

Are you going to argue that a piece of wire is a quantized communications 
link just becuase you can send regualrly spaced pulses down it?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec  3 16:15:26 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:15:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG2WE6r-+Z=HC6y6UGFQhgTTRr2f=Dj2mShmRQsyArF4g@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 3, 11 06:27:32 pm
Message-ID: <m1RWxrp-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> Yeah, London has a fair few. Oddly, though, the specialists are
> getting quite expensive now. Charity shops are the only place for
> cheap books, but they almost exclusively deal in trashy fiction,
> celebrity books and coffee-table picture books.

For UK readers...

If you can find one, the Oxfam Bookshops are well worth visiting. I've 
found quite a few old computer and techncial books in such shops, 
including a couple of electrical books over 100 years old. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec  3 15:54:37 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 21:54:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca> from "ben" at Dec 2, 11 09:22:59 pm
Message-ID: <m1RWxXh-000J43C@p850ug1>

> > Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
> >
> > ...they still exist, right? :/
> >
> 
> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
> Nor do libraries.

I must have been in a parallel universe when I bought assorted books on 
PDP11 programming, the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual, the Acorn Electron 
Advanced User Guide (not rare, but considerably harder to find than the 
BBC one), etc in second-hand bookshops (not all at the same time I hasten 
to add).

When are people going to realise that this is an international list, and 
what is true in one country (or even local area) is not necessarily true 
in ohters?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec  3 16:37:12 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 22:37:12 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Tandata (Tantel) Viewdata terminal configuration
Message-ID: <m1RWyCr-000J49C@p850ug1>

I've got a small Viewdate (PRestel) terminal on the bench at the momnet, a 
Tandata TD1100. 

I've made a few modifications, in particular I've removed the RF 
modualtor (which I find to be a pain), added the RGB oupt ucomponents, 
and fitted a 3 pin DIN socket in place of the redundant RF output socket 
with the pins wired to the audio signal, compostie video and ground. So I 
can now use it with compoite or RGB monitors. I've also added the printer 
port components.

[For reference, the RGB output components are the ones hidden by the 
modulator can. The IC is a 74LS364, there are 4 resistors, all 220 Ohm, 5 
picofuses to protect the telephone line agians a breakdown i nthe monitor 
wihci puts a high voltage on the input pins, 8 5.6V zener diodes and the 
5 pin DIN socket. Fit the link F-D to get TTL sync.

For the compopstie output, fit 10uF or 47uF capacitors in the 2 spaces 
hiddle by the modulator. Reduse the seires reissotr in the compostie 
signal (I think it's R9 on the PCB) from 1k to 220 Ohms. Fit a DIN socket 
in place of the RF output socket (the fibreglass insualtor of the latter 
can be drileld ot take a single-hole mountign DIN socket) and wire the 
pins to ground, the right hand hole of R5 (audio) and hole E (video).

For the pritner prot, the 3 missign chips are 74LS374, a 74LS365 and a 
74LS74. Since these have different numebrs of pins, it's obvious which 
goes where. The outptu conenctor is a DA15, you have yo cut a regtasnlge 
out of the back panel.]

anyway, it does seem to work. I've conencted it to another modem[1] -- 
neither needs any DC line 'battery' so just connecting them together was 
enough. I've discovered that from the 'dialer' screen, presing '#' 
energises the line relay and conencts the lien audio to the audio output. 
If it then detecs a carrier from the remote modem, it goes into on-line 
mode, it then disables audio fro mthe line to the audio output and turns 
on tis transmit carrier. Obviosuly trasmit ias at 75 buard, receive is at 
1200 baud, it's 7 bits, even parity (and it cares about the parity).

[1] An old Miracle WS2000, the black box with 3 knovbs on the front that 
weas commonly used with the BBC micor. It's an AM7910 and not much else, 
I like it because it can be controlled from the front paenl rotary 
swiches, and I Know exactly waht it's going to do. Since I only use it on 
a private system (my line simulator), I've eneabled the Bell modes by 
remove the pin from the rotary switch. I'd love to find the autodial and 
answer boards for it, but no chance...

So far, so good. But one thing I can''t figure out on this TD1100 is the 
dialer. The dialer scrren shows 6 telehone numbers which I beleive are 
stored in battery-backed RAM inside the unit. at this screen, typing in 
1 to 6 followed by a '#' dials that number foem the list and then goes 
itn othe on-line mode. As I said, a plain '# gopes into that mode iwthout 
dialing. Most other keys give a 'Please Try Again' error message. A 'P' 
(must be upper case, and note that caps lock is cleaered whenever you get 
to this screen) goes ota printer setup page (3 options). What I can't do 
is figure out hoe to set the numbers and/or dial an arbitrary number 
entered from the keyboard (ad since the battery in my unit is long dead 
and I've removed it, all the numbers on the lsit are strigns of zeros, 
not that useful!). I really don't want ot have to disassemble the firmware.

Another thing that would be useful, but I probably can figure this out, 
is the ppinout of the DA15 pritnr conenctor. It's clearly TTL level 
parallel. There are 2 opuptu ports, oen 8 bits (data I assume), one 2 
bits (I guess one of thsoe is strobe, what the other is I don't know) and 
3 inputs (one is conencted to a pusle-stretcher, adn is prsumably Ack/, 
one of the others is probably Busy). 

Any ideas?

-tony



From useddec at gmail.com  Sat Dec  3 18:04:44 2011
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 18:04:44 -0600
Subject: DEC 728 pwr sup and 844 pwr controller
Message-ID: <CACwhfuPtimeorv2sGUPR9G-mLxkvE5Tmq3jfrRwaXm=xWj_fvQ@mail.gmail.com>

That's right, no "H" before the number, and that means OLD. Can't
remember what they came
out of, and havn't had time to check, but I found a few of each while
digging today. If anyone is
interested, please contact me off- list.

I also have several hundred Q- bus boards I would like to find a new home for.


Thanks, Paul


From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Sun Dec  4 01:16:02 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 01:16:02 -0600
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <m1RWxXh-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RWxXh-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EDB1E32.9070900@tx.rr.com>

On 12/3/2011 3:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>>>
>>> ...they still exist, right? :/
>>>
>>
>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>> Nor do libraries.
>
> I must have been in a parallel universe when I bought assorted books on
> PDP11 programming, the Amiga Hardware Reference Manual, the Acorn Electron
> Advanced User Guide (not rare, but considerably harder to find than the
> BBC one), etc in second-hand bookshops (not all at the same time I hasten
> to add).
>
> When are people going to realise that this is an international list, and
> what is true in one country (or even local area) is not necessarily true
> in ohters?
>
> -tony
>
Heh, yes my thoughts went immediately to Half-Price Books here in 
Dallas.  The big one on Northwest Highway especially has many shelves of 
computer related books, though I'm not so sure about vintage ones.  I 
was not going to mention it though as I don't know that Half-Price Books 
even covers the whole of the USA much less any other countries.  I 
somehow doubt it.  While I do have that advantage, on the other hand I'm 
very unlikely to find e.g. a Beeb at a garage sale. :-(
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!

NASA: Give Ed Mitchell his camera back!
Freedom is in dire danger any time congress is in session...


From scheefj at netscape.net  Sun Dec  4 07:25:25 2011
From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 08:25:25 -0500
Subject: Used book sources - was: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7DqKmSmo8xdeGUJRxV96RxsBXe53vo4C5ZwS-Ukmw+ucQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <CAOPi=7DqKmSmo8xdeGUJRxV96RxsBXe53vo4C5ZwS-Ukmw+ucQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDB74C5.7070103@netscape.net>

John,

That is one exceptional used book store! The used book stores here in 
Connecticut seem to focus on rare books with leather bindings (at one 
end) or romance novel paperbacks (the low end). For computer books I use 
abebooks.com which indexes used bookstores all over the US and parts of 
Europe. When I see a book mentioned here I search for it on 
abebooks.com. Most of the time I can get it delivered to my mailbox a 
few days later for less than $6. I would bet they can ship to .au-land.

My other source is books sales run by the Friends of the <your town 
here> Public Library. I try to hit the larger sales held in my area each 
year. Last summer I picked up a copy of Steve Levy's "Insanely Great" 
for $1 (sorry Steve) along with some other "history" books on Apple, 
Xerox. I just started reading it. Some of these sales are much better 
for books on technology than others.

My review of a couple of Apple books is at 
http://dacs.org/archive/2011-12/feature2.htm.

Jim

On 12/3/2011 8:34 AM, John Willis wrote:
> On Dec 2, 2011 9:23 PM, "ben"<bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>  wrote:
>> On 12/2/2011 8:36 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> On 03/12/11 2:08 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>> On 3 December 2011 02:52, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>>>>> Nobody has spoken up for anything below.
>>>>
>>>> I'd like the Insanely Great book, but I am seriously broke and the
>>>> international shipping would be a bitch given that AIUI the USPS no
>>>> longer does surface post. :(
>>>>
>>> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you are.
>>>
>>> ...they still exist, right? :/
>>>
>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>> Nor do libraries.
>>
>>> --Toby
>>>
>>>
> My local used bookstore has an enormous selection of computer books... I
> most recently picked up copies of the Amiga ROM Kernel Manuals, the
> programmer manuals for the 68000, 020, and 030, and a copy of the VARM.
>
> They also have a long wall of shelves crammed full of databooks, from TTL
> to CMOS, with everything in between.
>
> jpw


From ohh at panix.com  Sat Dec  3 16:25:21 2011
From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp)
Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 17:25:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Need A Wyse WY-50?
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112031716480.6683@panix3.panix.com>


There's a Wyse WY-50 terminal which has been sitting in a box in a 
warehouse for nobody-really-knows-how-long which has recently come into 
my hands. I haven't tried powering it up - it probably wants a good 
checking-out first - but it looks to be in very good cosmetic condition, 
and the people who gave it to me say it was working when it was stowed. 
Keyboard, power cord and manual are all with it.

It's in Seattle.

Free if you can pick it up (Seattle Center, Opera House, we can arrange a 
time), or UPS shipping costs if you want it shipped. Slight preference to 
anyone who's willing to pick it up.  :)  E-mail ohh at panix.com if 
interested.

                   -O.-


From jlobocki at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 11:34:50 2011
From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 11:34:50 -0600
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <p0624081ecaff552faa18@192.168.1.157>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <p0624081ecaff552faa18@192.168.1.157>
Message-ID: <CAAVQg1v_fRfn9_xw_XgbJSGZT3pddiD4rt=4PTaCkuR2B4w9+w@mail.gmail.com>

Those SGIs seem to have taken quite a beating. the bigger question is, how
many of the lightbars still work in the octanes? Ive got mine modded with
"incandescent white" LEDs.

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 10:26 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> At 5:31 PM -0700 12/2/11, Richard wrote:
>
>> I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
>> home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
>> are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
>> initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/**collections/cgm/index.html<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html>
>> >
>>
>
> Good Heavens!  And I thought I had storage problems! :-)
>
> What really stands out is some very serious SGI Hardware.  I'm envious of
> those Octanes.  I only have a pair of o2's.
>
> Zane
>
>
>
> --
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
> | healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
> |                                  | Photographer               |
> +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+
> |                     My flickr Photostream                     |
> |          http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/>          |
>


From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Sun Dec  4 12:48:47 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:48:47 +0000
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
Message-ID: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk>

Hi guys,

Does anyone here have a surplus of GPIB, HPIB or IEEE488 cables (they're 
all the same thing) with metric threads? (the thumbscrews will probably 
be black -- the silver ones are AIUI usually some SAE thread type or other).

I'm after a couple of the short 1-2ft "instrument to instrument" cables, 
a 1-metre (to replace a nasty little knockoff cable which has 
excessively long thumbscrews) and a 2-metre (to replace a buggered up 
Belden cable).

These seem to be commanding utterly insane prices on Greed-Bay, and are 
basically unavailable elsewhere...

Thanks,
-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 12:54:11 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 18:54:11 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca> <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com>
 <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 3, 2011 11:07 PM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>
> On 03/12/11 7:05 PM, ben wrote:
>>
>> On 12/2/2011 10:46 PM, Dave     McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/02/2011 11:22 PM, ben wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>>>> Nor do libraries.
>>>
>>>
>>> Huh? I buy good computer books in used bookstores all the time. As
>>> recently as last week. Crack?
>>
>>
>> Good pick me a good book on computer hardware ... skip the intel
products,
>> windows and unix clones. What is left in the classic department?
>
>
> Anything *specific* can be found on http://abebooks.com/ for example; but
their listing sources are all ... brick and mortar stores. Go figure.

Not /all!/

As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mine
host is a book dealer, sells a lot on Abe, & works solely from home with no
shop.

- LP


From snhirsch at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 13:17:33 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 14:17:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112041413020.6933@duo>

On Thu, 1 Dec 2011, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> On 01/12/11 04:03, Tom wrote:
>> At 07:47 PM 11/30/2011, you wrote:
>>> m88k Systems use standard SCSI and can use anything up to 2GB without a
>>> problem. I have DG/UX 5.?? on CD and 4.?? on Tape here.
>> 
>> As far as I know, the one we have uses standard SCSI (as opposed to
>> what? Diff?) as well.
>
> All this talk of SCSI has piqued my curiosity... maybe it's time for another 
> product...
>
> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in hard 
> disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a SCSI 
> bus?

I'm sitting here looking at one at the moment.  It's an SCM PCD-P50B.  As 
recently as a month ago, they were available new from:

http://a4000t.com/

for $62.00 US.

> Perhaps even with the option of emulating SCSI CD-ROM drives (including those 
> pesky 512-byte block drives), or even multiple devices at a time ("this 
> partition contains a CD image and is SCSI dev 5, this one is a 1GB hard drive 
> on dev 4, and this is a 100MB read-only HDD on dev 6").

The SCM unit maps the various cards to LUNs, which admittedly is not 
supported by much of anything classic.

Steve


-- 



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Dec  4 13:18:17 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 11:18:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EDB1E32.9070900@tx.rr.com>
References: <m1RWxXh-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EDB1E32.9070900@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20111204111509.D33588@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote:
> Heh, yes my thoughts went immediately to Half-Price Books here in
> Dallas.  The big one on Northwest Highway especially has many shelves of
> computer related books, though I'm not so sure about vintage ones.  I
> was not going to mention it though as I don't know that Half-Price Books
> even covers the whole of the USA much less any other countries.  I
> somehow doubt it.

They have stores in this area (Berkeley, California), and I think that it
was one of their stores that I stumbled into near Seattle (near the
University) about 20 years ago.






From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec  4 13:49:20 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:49:20 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Tandata (Tantel) Viewdata terminal configuration
In-Reply-To: <m1RWyCr-000J49C@p850ug1> from "Tony Duell" at Dec 3,
 11 10:37:12 pm
Message-ID: <m1RXI3y-000J43C@p850ug1>

> For the compopsite output, fit 10uF or 47uF capacitors in the 2 spaces 
> hidden by the modulator. Reduse the series resistor in the compostie 
> signal (I think it's R9 on the PCB) from 1k to 220 Ohms. Fit a DIN socket 

Actually it's R8, I misremembered last night.

> in place of the RF output socket (the fibreglass insualtor of the latter 
> can be drilled out take a single-hole mounting DIN socket) and wire the 
> pins to ground, the right hand hole of R5 (audio) and hole E (video).

[..]

> Another thing that would be useful, but I probably can figure this out, 
> is the ppinout of the DA15 printer conenctor. It's clearly TTL level 
> parallel. There are 2 output ports, one 8 bits (data I assume), one 2 
> bits (I guess one of thsoe is strobe, what the other is I don't know) and 
> 3 inputs (one is conencted to a pusle-stretcher, adn is prsumably Ack/, 
> one of the others is probably Busy). 

I've doen a little more testing on thsi. By monitorign the 2-bitoutputs 
and groudnign the inputs (TTL, so they float high), I think the ouptus 
are Stv/ and Init/ (pulsed low briefly at the start of every printer 
operation). The inputs seem to be Ack/, Busy and some kind of Error/ 
signal (Paper Out/ perhaps).

I;ev yet to wire up a cable from a DA15 plug to a 36 pin microribbon 
plug, but that's something to do i ntyhe enar future. Then I can be sure 
my connections are OK.

I still can't figure out how to set the numbers to dial though. Any ideas?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec  4 13:58:37 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 19:58:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Used book sources - was: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <4EDB74C5.7070103@netscape.net> from "Jim Scheef" at Dec 4,
 11 08:25:25 am
Message-ID: <m1RXID3-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> My other source is books sales run by the Friends of the <your town 
> here> Public Library. I try to hit the larger sales held in my area each 

Unfortately there are very few good techncial books in the public 
libaries round here, so they don't turn up very often in the book sales. 
About 10 years ago ther were a lot being sold off, for very cheap prices. 
Not specifically computer-related ones (although I got a few on things 
like the Atari ST). I did get the ARRL Antenna handbook for 30p (say 
$0.50), the Handbook of Mathematical Functions (Dover reprint) for 20p, 
DeCarle's book on using the small lathe for 20p (I think), and so on. 
Well worth that sort of money...

I certainly never pass a library sale without popping in and looking at 
the books... Ditto a second-hand bookshop or charity shop (thrift store). 
The latter's another good source. Over the years, I've found some genuine 
antyique electrical books (meaning over 100 years old), original service 
manuals for valve televisions, volumes of Radio and Television Servicing, 
car workshop manuals (such as the Australian version of the Mini manual, 
offical factory one, for 75p or the Rover P6 factory manual, somwhat 
falling apart for 50p). 

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec  4 14:03:57 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:03:57 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
In-Reply-To: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Dec 4,
 11 06:48:47 pm
Message-ID: <m1RXIIA-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Does anyone here have a surplus of GPIB, HPIB or IEEE488 cables (they're 
> all the same thing) with metric threads? (the thumbscrews will probably 
> be black -- the silver ones are AIUI usually some SAE thread type or other).

Almost all HPIB cables, and certainly all modern ones, will have M3.5 
jackscrews. The original ones were 6-32 UNC. At one time HP sold kits to 
convert original cables or instruments to the M3.5 thread, but I doubt 
they're still avaialble.

I am actually looking for a couple of the 6-32 jackscrews. One of my HP 
instruemtns -- I think it's the 59309 clock, has the UNC jackposts, and 
I'd rather keep it original. What I'll probalbvy end up doing is 
converting a cable to the original theads (by making the jackscrews 
myself if necessary) at one end only, so I can use that to conenc the 
clock to the other HPIB stuff.

> 
> I'm after a couple of the short 1-2ft "instrument to instrument" cables, 
> a 1-metre (to replace a nasty little knockoff cable which has 
> excessively long thumbscrews) and a 2-metre (to replace a buggered up 
> Belden cable).
> 
> These seem to be commanding utterly insane prices on Greed-Bay, and are 
> basically unavailable elsewhere...

I thought they were still being made, but at even more insane prices...

I know I have a fair number, but equally, I have a lot of HPIB kit here 
so I need a lot of cables. I can see if I have the odd one 'spare' though 
if you get no other offers.

-tony


From halarewich at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 14:02:03 2011
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:02:03 -0800
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
In-Reply-To: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=izYktCOB=85u8f6Bd=AH2TQqQmZaD_PYH3FarhNfp3zg@mail.gmail.com>

here is a site out of callifornia but they ship to the uk

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10210&cs_id=1021004

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 10:48 AM, Philip Pemberton
<classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>wrote:

> Hi guys,
>
> Does anyone here have a surplus of GPIB, HPIB or IEEE488 cables (they're
> all the same thing) with metric threads? (the thumbscrews will probably be
> black -- the silver ones are AIUI usually some SAE thread type or other).
>
> I'm after a couple of the short 1-2ft "instrument to instrument" cables, a
> 1-metre (to replace a nasty little knockoff cable which has excessively
> long thumbscrews) and a 2-metre (to replace a buggered up Belden cable).
>
> These seem to be commanding utterly insane prices on Greed-Bay, and are
> basically unavailable elsewhere...
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Phil.
> classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
> http://www.philpem.me.uk/
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 14:03:00 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 15:03:00 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112041413020.6933@duo>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112041413020.6933@duo>
Message-ID: <235F43DA-E0E6-45E2-BF09-C9B1330D789B@gmail.com>

On Dec 4, 2011, at 2:17 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote:

>> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to a SCSI bus?
> 
> I'm sitting here looking at one at the moment.  It's an SCM PCD-P50B.  As recently as a month ago, they were available new from:
> 
> http://a4000t.com/
> 
> for $62.00 US.

That's pretty great.  I'd have to figure out the LUN bit (not sure if the CQD-220 plays nicely with multi-LUN devices, but I haven't looked it up.  Any clue if it supports SDHC?  I'm guessing not, but it's hard to say.


- Dave





From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 14:09:09 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 15:09:09 -0500
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
In-Reply-To: <m1RXIIA-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk>
	<m1RXIIA-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh42+eanjOSry3_L+Srh1uq7EtKn73ix3D0uJkPJn2ar_Q@mail.gmail.com>

I found
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ieee-488-gpib-bus-interface-cable-1m-length-53622
and
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ieee-488-gpib-bus-interface-cable-2m-length-51876
at what appears to be decent prices.

On Sun, Dec 4, 2011 at 3:03 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Does anyone here have a surplus of GPIB, HPIB or IEEE488 cables (they're
>> all the same thing) with metric threads? (the thumbscrews will probably
>> be black -- the silver ones are AIUI usually some SAE thread type or other).
>
> Almost all HPIB cables, and certainly all modern ones, will have M3.5
> jackscrews. The original ones were 6-32 UNC. At one time HP sold kits to
> convert original cables or instruments to the M3.5 thread, but I doubt
> they're still avaialble.
>
> I am actually looking for a couple of the 6-32 jackscrews. One of my HP
> instruemtns -- I think it's the 59309 clock, has the UNC jackposts, and
> I'd rather keep it original. What I'll probalbvy end up doing is
> converting a cable to the original theads (by making the jackscrews
> myself if necessary) at one end only, so I can use that to conenc the
> clock to the other HPIB stuff.
>
>>
>> I'm after a couple of the short 1-2ft "instrument to instrument" cables,
>> a 1-metre (to replace a nasty little knockoff cable which has
>> excessively long thumbscrews) and a 2-metre (to replace a buggered up
>> Belden cable).
>>
>> These seem to be commanding utterly insane prices on Greed-Bay, and are
>> basically unavailable elsewhere...
>
> I thought they were still being made, but at even more insane prices...
>
> I know I have a fair number, but equally, I have a lot of HPIB kit here
> so I need a lot of cables. I can see if I have the odd one 'spare' though
> if you get no other offers.
>
> -tony



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 14:09:40 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 12:09:40 -0800
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112041413020.6933@duo>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com>
 <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112041413020.6933@duo>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJLSQsEGLyjaO0SrpuPn=ckazcXkOKW-==6Cetx223Wqw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 4, 2011 11:22 AM, "Steven Hirsch" <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in
hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to
a SCSI bus?
>
>
> I'm sitting here looking at one at the moment.  It's an SCM PCD-P50B.  As
recently as a month ago, they were available new from:
>
> http://a4000t.com/
>
> for $62.00 US.
>

Looks interesting. I just ordered one. I'll see how it works with a CMD
CQD-220 on a PDP-11 system.


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Sun Dec  4 13:59:32 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:59:32 +0000
Subject: WS2000 - Re: Tandata (Tantel) Viewdata terminal configuration
In-Reply-To: <m1RWyCr-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RWyCr-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EDBD124.7020003@dunnington.plus.com>

Tony Duell wrote:

> [1] An old Miracle WS2000, the black box with 3 knovbs on the front that 
> weas commonly used with the BBC micor. It's an AM7910 and not much else, 
> I like it because it can be controlled from the front paenl rotary 
> swiches, and I Know exactly waht it's going to do. Since I only use it on 
> a private system (my line simulator), I've eneabled the Bell modes by 
> remove the pin from the rotary switch. I'd love to find the autodial and 
> answer boards for it, but no chance...

There's also a kit (SK-1) to add a few parts which allow full software 
control.  Miracle Technology used to scrape off the IC type numbers in a 
vain attempt to prevent people working out what they were, and as you 
can imagine I immediately decided to work out what they were.  Diagram 
available if required :-) along with the original MT documentation.

One problem you sometimes find when the SK-1 kit and/or 
autodial/autoanswer boards are fitted is that the internal 5V line gets 
very noisy, and the modem does odd things due to switching glitches. 
Really only a problem if you install SK1.  Thin tracks and small 
smoothing capacitors around the regulator are the problem, easy fixed 
with a little extra wire and a couple of caps.

Actually I might have a spare autodial board.  Originally there was 
supposed to be a single autodial-autoanswer (AA1) board but that was 
withdrawn because of trouble with BABT.  Later came separate autodial 
(AD2) autoanswer (AA2) boards and I remember both being quite simple. 
AD2 needed the software control kit (the older board didn't, it was 
entirely controlled by the DTR line) but the AA2 didn't.  I worked out 
schematics for some of them, but the autoanswer board I built and used 
worked in a slightly different way, using "ringback".

"Ringback" was a technique to allow use of a modem for a dial-in BBS (or 
whatever) without preventing normal use of a domestic phone line.  If 
the phone rang, the modem detected that and set a flag.  If it went on 
ringing (usually for two or more rings) the flag was cleared, and the 
modem ignored it, so mortals could call the (house) number as normal. 
If the modem detected just one ring, and then a gap (10 seconds or so), 
and then more ringing, it would answer.  So a BBS user would dial, hang 
up quickly, and redial, to get connected.  Ordinary mortals would just 
dial and let the phone ring as usual.

Can't help much with the Tantel, I'm afraid.  I did some work with 
SoftMachinery for Acorn's Prestel ROM, and although I used to have the 
source for the Tantel driver (called "tantrum" because of its 
"reliability") I can't find it now.  I used WS2000s and wrote drivers 
for those ("madam", because it could be a little m.. with some version 
of the ROM code).

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Dec  4 15:04:48 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:04:48 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <4ED9E472.8010800@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RWbke-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <AECC4F0A-9255-41B2-B51A-D9C739C9FFFE@cs.ubc.ca>
 <4ED9E472.8010800@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <DC589952-66DE-4C4E-966C-EF5C42D15C63@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 3, at 12:57 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Brent Hilpert wrote:
> > In the analogy with the FSK modem in your other message
> > then: simply put, whether the demodulated signal is time-quantised
> > depends on the properties of the modulating signal.
>
> I still find that I can't agree with your definition of  
> quantization as applied to signals.  In particular, you seem to  
> think that quantization is a characteristic of the content of the  
> signal, while I consider it a characteristic of the representation  
> of the signal.

I'm not sure what you mean by "representation of the signal",  
although I was going to posit a similar distinction to you. I presume  
you mean the phenomena - changing amplitude over time of an  
electrical 'signal' (term used loosely) for instance. However a  
'signal' (term used more strictly) is something intended to convey  
information (content), and generally there is some prior knowledge  
involved of how to interpret the phenomena to retrieve that information.

I would say that conveying discrete information through a medium or  
channel is typically done with a quantised signal. The original  
discussion was for a baseband/pulse signal though, the addition of  
modulated-carrier mediums was an additional complexity that I didn't  
feel was warranted for the discussion and brings in additional  
considerations.

This does seem like one of those discussions that would be sorted out  
in a minute of conversation in front of a blackboard, but over email  
- with slightly different understandings or ambiguous use of words -  
it ends up in an infinite regression. I'm not sure of the continuing  
relevance to the original discussion but we'll see where your thought  
experiment goes.


> I go to a concert hall and listen to music performed on a  
> (mechanical) piano.  Is the sound in the concert hall quantized?

I expect we agree it is not.


> I take my Olympus LS11 PCM audio recorder with me to the concert  
> hall, and with the LS11 sticking out of my shirt pocket, record the  
> concert from my seat, using stereo 96 kHz 24-bit sampling with the  
> built-in microphones.
>
> Is the PCM recording in the flash memory of the LS11 quantized?

It is a discretely-rendered approximation of the sound.
I expect we agree it quantised.


> When I get home, I play back the recording through a DAC,  
> reconstruction filter, amplifier, and speaker, and listen sitting  
> in my easy chair.  As I listen to the playback, is the signal from  
> the output of the speaker (sound waves) quantized?

Not likely by the time it's emanating from the speaker.

If one were looking at the output of the DAC, however, I would say it  
was quantised if the discrete steps are still discernable in both  
time and amplitude and one could precisely recreate the input to the  
DAC, for any arbitrary input sequence (assumes a good DAC).

Once it has gone through the [limited-bandwidth,distorting,noisy]  
filters, amplifier and speaker, info has been lost and you're not  
going to reliably or consistently get back to arbitrary 96KHz, 24-bit  
discrete data.


> Is the signal impinging on my ears (sound waves) quantized?

And we both know (my) answer to that, I expect we agree on this  
question.


> Note that the sound waves at my ear are not identical to those at  
> the speaker, and that it would be relatively difficult to exactly  
> reconstruct those at the speaker from those at my ear.  If you were  
> to say that the sound waves at the speaker are quantized, does the  
> distortion introduced by the "channel" the signal passes through,  
> between the speaker and my ear, make any difference to your opinion  
> as to whether the signal at my ear is quantized?
>
> I have further questions for part two of the thought experiment,  
> after we've considered part one.



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Sun Dec  4 15:07:17 2011
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 21:07:17 -0000
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJLSQsEGLyjaO0SrpuPn=ckazcXkOKW-==6Cetx223Wqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ed6d0c4.a222320a.6b52.ffffccd7@mx.google.com>
 <4ED6D9CE.7070806@gmail.com>
 <CAOegkGtVEOh3LCuPUvcXhxgzsHMsM98_jU3owt7YQ80RPstW1g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ed6fd4c.e36a320a.20c5.1a9e@mx.google.com> <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112041413020.6933@duo>
 <CAM2UOwJLSQsEGLyjaO0SrpuPn=ckazcXkOKW-==6Cetx223Wqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03d801ccb2c8$b5ffb820$21ff2860$@ntlworld.com>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick
> Sent: 04 December 2011 20:10
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
> 
> On Dec 4, 2011 11:22 AM, "Steven Hirsch" <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint of a 3.5in
> hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash cards to be connected to
a
> SCSI bus?
> >
> >
> > I'm sitting here looking at one at the moment.  It's an SCM PCD-P50B.
> > As
> recently as a month ago, they were available new from:
> >
> > http://a4000t.com/
> >
> > for $62.00 US.
> >
> 
> Looks interesting. I just ordered one. I'll see how it works with a CMD
> CQD-220 on a PDP-11 system.

It would be great if you would report back on your experiences. Keen to
understand if you can partition the storage so you can get a sub 1GB disk.

Regards

Rob



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Dec  4 15:15:03 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:15:03 -0800
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <m1RWxgk-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RWxgk-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20FCCCB8-6484-404E-AB1E-FAC8F29344A2@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 3, at 2:03 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

>> In my response however, I was distinguishing between the assessment
>> of the signal and the properties of the signal, as your response had
>> alluded to the latter, although we also have the two perspectives to
>> consider of the agglomeration of possible signals from all disks
>> versus a given instance. Leaving aside the low probability or
>> occurrence of someone using the disk for analog PWM or PPM recording,
>> and other opinions notwithstanding (other thread), I do not consider
>> a given instance of a (typical) amplitude-normalised (to two states)
>> read signal from the disk to be analog in the time domain, but from
>> your other message I think we agree on that.
>
> I think the difference between our approachies is that you're
> consisderign a drive and a particular controller combination, I am
> considering jus tthe drive.

Well, I wasn't really thinking of the controller, rather the signal  
one typically sees, which - if you like - implies a controller, as  
something wrote the original signal.

The original context of the thread was recovering digital data from  
an ST-506 drive, albeit one with unknown controller characteristics,  
"Waveforms" were mentioned. I allowed for the benefit of using an  
analog-in-the-time-domain assessment of the signal from the drive in  
my first message.


> I agree that the data sent from any normal controller to th edrive  
> when
> writing (or formatting) is time-quantized. And that the data read back
> from the drive is similar, modulo a bit of jitter and the magnetic
> effects that perecompensation is designed to compensate for.
>
> However, sicen ST506 is a low-level 'raw' interface, you can't  
> assume the
> time quatization is the same for all possible controllers. Sicne the
> pulse spacing could be any vlaue between given limits (although a
> particlar contoller will only use a few differnet psacings), I feel  
> the
> drive itslef  is analogue in the time domain.

>> In the analogy with the FSK modem in your other message then: simply
>> put, whether the demodulated signal is time-quantised depends on the
>> properties of the modulating signal.
>
> Are you going to argue that a piece of wire is a quantized  
> communications
> link just becuase you can send regualrly spaced pulses down it?

(And here I thought we would have agreed, based on your assessment of  
the async serial signal vs. cat notifier).

Why would I argue as you suggest? It is a question which does not  
follow from my statement. Your question which I was answering  
referred to the "receive data output" of the modem.

If there is a debate still it seems to be one of semantics. Is a wire  
interconnecting a gate output and gate input of two TTL ICs in a  
synchronous system analog? Or is it an analog *link*? Or is it just  
*capable* - if extracted for another use - of being an analog link?  
Or does it just have some analog characteristics? Or does it merely  
have the capability of *conveying* analog information when used in an  
other context? One could answer yes to all those, depending on the  
nuance one wishes to put on it. While it can be useful and necessary  
to analyse the signal on that wire in analog terms at times  
(prototyping, repairing), do we normally think of it or treat it as  
analog? I didn't think so: because we know something about the  
characteristics of the signal we expect to see on it.



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sun Dec  4 15:49:26 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 14:49:26 -0700
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com> <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDBEAE6.6000708@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/4/2011 11:54 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mine
> host is a book dealer, sells a lot on Abe,&  works solely from home with no
> shop.

... so you get old computer books from hyper-space. I tend to use Abe as 
well
for most of my old book buying. Like I picked up the "Art of 
electronics", new
but what I wanted was the 1st edition for the power reset circuit. Now 
it all says
use a blah blah chip from ... if I wanted that I could down load the PDF 
and read the
same thing.

> - LP
Ben.




From brain at jbrain.com  Sun Dec  4 18:45:13 2011
From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 18:45:13 -0600
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh42+eanjOSry3_L+Srh1uq7EtKn73ix3D0uJkPJn2ar_Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk> <m1RXIIA-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <CAH5WRh42+eanjOSry3_L+Srh1uq7EtKn73ix3D0uJkPJn2ar_Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDC1419.9000800@jbrain.com>

On 12/4/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote:
> I found
> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ieee-488-gpib-bus-interface-cable-1m-length-53622
>
http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-10005678-Grey+1M+IEEE-488+GPIB+Cable.html

-- 
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com



From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Sun Dec  4 19:42:34 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:42:34 -0600
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <4EDC218A.20508@tx.rr.com>

On 12/2/2011 7:23 PM, Tom wrote:
> Interesting article about the 40th anniversary of the progenitor of many
> modern operating systems. It even mentions our very own Al Kossow,
>
> "One holy grail that eluded us for a long time was the first edition of
> Unix in any form, electronic or otherwise. Then, in 2006, Al Kossow from
> the <http://www.computerhistory.org/>Computer History Museum, in
> Mountain View, Calif., unearthed a printed study of Unix dated 1972,
> which not only covered the internal workings of Unix but also included a
> complete assembly listing of the kernel, the main component of this
> operating system. This was an amazing find?like discovering an old Ford
> Model T collecting dust in a corner of a barn. But we didn't just want
> to admire the chrome work from afar. We wanted to see the thing run again."
>
> http://spectrum.ieee.org/computing/software/the-strange-birth-and-long-life-of-unix/0
>
>
> I love the picture of the very first man page.
>
That's marvelous, thanks so much for posting that link.
Later,
Charlie C.


From dave at mitton.com  Sun Dec  4 20:54:17 2011
From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 21:54:17 -0500
Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1322676009.81781.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1322676009.81781.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20111205025425.C6259EA96C@smtprelay08.hostedemail.com>

On 11/30/2011 01:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2011 15:27:07 -0500
>From: Jim Scheef <scheefj at netscape.net>
>To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>         <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>Subject: Microsoft OS/2 1.1 on eBay
>
>Did anyone on the list win the Microsoft OS/2 1.1 auction that closed a
>few weeks ago? I would dearly like to get images of those disks...
>
>Jim

I rummaged around some more and found 7 3.5" 2MB floppies
of IBM OS/2 V1.10 (c) 1988 (IBM and Microsoft)
1- Installation Diskette
4- Operating System
2 -Patches (Corrective Service XR03020)

Does someone want these?  (for postage)

I have a ton of "vintage" DOS and Windows ware.
I haven't figured out where/how to dispose of.

Dave.



From ploopster at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 21:44:00 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 03:44:00 -0000
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>	<20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>	<004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net>
Message-ID: <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>

madodel wrote:
  > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
> internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just 
> LAN networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as 
> well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a 
> full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995.  I assume Unix, Linux, 
> AppleOS or AmigaOS must have had this prior to that?  I remember all 
> those damn AOL floppy disks for all the windows users.  FORMAT A: was a 
> good use for them.

I used PPP (or it might have been SLIP) on Ultrix LONG before 1995.  And 
it also makes a difference as to what you mean by "internet access". 
UUCP could fall into that criterion, and has been built-into certain 
operating systems for a *very* long time.

Peace...  Sridhar



From ploopster at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 21:44:14 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 03:44:14 -0000
Subject: Harvard v. von Neumann
Message-ID: <4941DAC0.50101@gmail.com>


According to what I've read, the Burroughs B5000 and Manchester Atlas 
were both Harvard architecture and the GE-645 was von Neumann.  Am I 
correct in my understanding?

Peace...  Sridhar



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Dec  4 22:21:37 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:21:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>

madodel wrote:
> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
> internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just
> LAN networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as
> well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a
> full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995.  I assume Unix, Linux,
> AppleOS or AmigaOS must have had this prior to that?  I remember all
> those damn AOL floppy disks for all the windows users.  FORMAT A: was a
> good use for them.

"BUILT-IN" ?  or "BUNDLED"?

such as terminal dialup to a Unix shell account and using FTP, gopher, and
later lynx

There was a LOT of internet access long before Windows For Wankers.


You've got a very reasonable question.  But, with a subject line of
"first" computer on the internet
you will not be taken seriously.
Sorry.



Besides, everybody knows that AOL invented the internet on a Mac in HTML,
in 2000, in order to sell WWW porn, under orders from Meg Whitman.  And
then Hayes invented the modem, and DOD based arpanet on the Fry's website.
CD-ROMs were invented for the sole purpose of preventing AOL from dropping
the bottom out of the diskette market.


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Sun Dec  4 22:30:55 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:30:55 -0800
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>	<20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>	<004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EB2D0328-1B27-4BB3-9F7E-2F5EE6973B23@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2008 Jul 20, at 6:32 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:

> madodel wrote:
>  > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
>> internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that  
>> just LAN networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for  
>> IBM's ISP as well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released  
>> in 1994, but not a full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995.   
>> I assume Unix, Linux, AppleOS or AmigaOS must have had this prior  
>> to that?  I remember all those damn AOL floppy disks for all the  
>> windows users.  FORMAT A: was a good use for them.
>
> I used PPP (or it might have been SLIP) on Ultrix LONG before  
> 1995.  And it also makes a difference as to what you mean by  
> "internet access". UUCP could fall into that criterion, and has  
> been built-into certain operating systems for a *very* long time.
>
> Peace...  Sridhar


On 2008 Dec 11, at 7:30 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:

> According to what I've read, the Burroughs B5000 and Manchester  
> Atlas were both Harvard architecture and the GE-645 was von  
> Neumann.  Am I correct in my understanding?
>
> Peace...  Sridhar



That's funny, these two messages relate to threads from 2008 but they  
don't show up in the cctalk archive. Looks like they've been waiting  
3 years to get out. 


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sun Dec  4 22:48:01 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 20:48:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <EB2D0328-1B27-4BB3-9F7E-2F5EE6973B23@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <EB2D0328-1B27-4BB3-9F7E-2F5EE6973B23@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <20111204204413.R33588@shell.lmi.net>

On Sun, 4 Dec 2011, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> That's funny, these two messages relate to threads from 2008 but they
> don't show up in the cctalk archive. Looks like they've been waiting
> 3 years to get out.

Some of those PRE-internet computers didn't always send messages by the
most efficient possible route!
Never realized that there were nodes that many light-years away!

Sorry.
I didn't even notice that the message that I was commenting on was old.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec  5 00:01:25 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 22:01:25 -0800
Subject: Harvard v. von Neumann
In-Reply-To: <4941DAC0.50101@gmail.com>
References: <4941DAC0.50101@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDBEDB5.31537.2C14C94@cclist.sydex.com>

On 11 Dec 2008 at 22:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:

> According to what I've read, the Burroughs B5000 and Manchester Atlas
> were both Harvard architecture and the GE-645 was von Neumann.  Am I
> correct in my understanding?

Better 3 years late than never, I guess.

I've had this time-warp happen when I updated email clients.  Failed-
to-send messages got shunted off to a "pending" queue and forgotten 
and the updated client notices after copying over the old mail 
messages that some didn't get sent.

So it sends 'em, no matter that it's years late.

I wonder if that's what's going on here.

--Chuck



From jjacocks at mac.com  Sun Dec  4 12:50:27 2011
From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 13:50:27 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <201112020803.DAA21069@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <702D452EB6C642BA913B30080B0D71A9@ANTONIOPC>
 <201112020803.DAA21069@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAF-r0Y1fv4NpGULNkHkhdbsmwfMdb5_9bZGdguAE75O_RGUO6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 2, 2011 at 3:03 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>>> (This assumes software can be told to use only part of a drive's
>>> self-reported capacity, which of course may not be so [...].)
>> OpenVMS will [break]
>
> I had VMS in mind. ?But my VMS experience does not include any SCSI
> disks, nor anything over 1G in size, so I didn't actually know whether
> it can be told to do anything like the partitioning typical Unices can
> do (which would make it much easier to put everything accessed with the
> ROM driver below the magic 1G boundary).

Even though, as Tony says, SCSI disks are commonly available, there
are several issues.  First, shipping on SCSI disks is always high, due
to their weight.  And, a significant portion of the used disks that I
have bought (eBay, Craigslist, Hamfests, etc.) have been bad.  Also,
I've been noticing, lately, that a number of the disks that I have
stockpiled (SCSI-2 through Ultra 320) are now apparently bad, though
they've been carefully stored.  I just pitched two (a WD Enterprise
4.3gb SCA, and a Seagate 9gb Fast SCSI-2), today.

I also own a good variety of the aforementioned SCSI-IDE converters
(Acard SATA/Ultra 160, Acard IDE/UW SCSI-2, ADTX 2.5" SCSI/IDE, Artmix
CF PowerMonster II, and others), and they are uniformly expensive.
Also, different models have significant limitations (such as the ADTX
not supporting more than 8gb disks).  Also, if you can't/won't pay
retail ($200+ is more than my hobby can afford), the used pickings are
slim.

And last, quite a few of my vintage systems are thermally challenged
(especially my DEC Multia), and a flash SCSI solution would extend
their lives, significantly.

So, I would _love_ to see a good general-purpose SCSI/SCSI-2 to flash
memory adapter.  I'd also be willing to do whatever I can to help
develop such a solution.

The timing on this discussion is particularly good, as I have spent
most of the morning trying (unsuccessfully) to get a DECstation 5000
to install onto either SCA-adapted or IDE-bridged disks.

- Alex



From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie  Sun Dec  4 13:50:40 2011
From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Sun, 04 Dec 2011 19:50:40 +0000 (WET)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 01 Dec 2011 14:03:06 -0800"
 <4ED7891A.6173.FCFEB9@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <01O976V3GOAS002XYM@beyondthepale.ie>

>
>> Would anyone be interested in a device with the footprint  of a 
>> 3.5in hard disk drive, which allowed SD or CompactFlash  cards to
>> be connected to a SCSI bus?   
>
>One of my customers has just such a setup on their E&S system.  I 
>believe it's two adapters, SCSI-to-IDE and IDE-to-CF.
>

I've got a similar setup:

- an ACARD AEC7720U SCSI to IDE bridge adapter which I bought from the UK
  for approx UKP 46 including VAT, airmail postage etc.

- an IDE to CF adapter which I bought of DealExtreme, Hong Kong for about EUR5.

The ACARD adapter is connected to the narrow SCSI bus in a DEC Alpha running
VMS. I use this for reading CF cards, not for running VMS from a CF card.

The setup works but it's not ideal. The biggest problem is when I swap the
CF card, the combination sulks until I power both adapters off and on again
together. I vaguely recall that a more expensive ACARD adapter (or possibly
IDE to CF adapter - I forget which) may have offered the ability to hotswap
the card.

The mechanical arrangement is not ideal either. The IDE to CF adapter has a
40 pin IDC socket on the board for the IDE connection and the ACARD adapter
similarly has a 40 pin IDC plug. Fitting these directly together makes it
hard to get at the CF slot. I suppose I could make up a short lead...

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com  Sun Dec  4 22:46:26 2011
From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis)
Date: Sun, 4 Dec 2011 21:46:26 -0700
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 4, 2011 9:22 PM, "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>
> madodel wrote:
> > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
> > internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just
> > LAN networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as
> > well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a
> > full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995.
not quite true. OS/2 extended edition included a TCP/IP stack as early as
v1.1 iirc.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec  5 03:05:49 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 20:05:49 +1100
Subject: institutional amnesia
Message-ID: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>

I am sure many on the list will painfully recognise this scenario:
http://wrttn.in/04af1a

"I had naively hoped digitization would solve our problems forever. My 
manager was reading a dense book about it that I picked up out of 
curiosity. It had seemed persuasive.
   But, the old-fashioned phone and email tree worked a bit better. The 
old research division is still mostly intact, and their physical library 
exists. ... The paper documents tauntingly sport IDs announcing that 
they had been digitized by Big Digitization Corp at some point in the 
past. Who knows what happened to that archive."

--Toby


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 03:39:45 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 10:39:45 +0100
Subject: institutional amnesia
In-Reply-To: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi_EBWASqGQCnobdzd-7VG83DTsenf=+FvDmq=GTYgWTiA@mail.gmail.com>

You're right. I painfully recognise this scenario. It's really no fun.

But this happens even in the "best" companies...
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/5 Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au>

> I am sure many on the list will painfully recognise this scenario:
> http://wrttn.in/04af1a
>
> "I had naively hoped digitization would solve our problems forever. My
> manager was reading a dense book about it that I picked up out of
> curiosity. It had seemed persuasive.
>  But, the old-fashioned phone and email tree worked a bit better. The old
> research division is still mostly intact, and their physical library
> exists. ... The paper documents tauntingly sport IDs announcing that they
> had been digitized by Big Digitization Corp at some point in the past. Who
> knows what happened to that archive."
>
> --Toby
>


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Mon Dec  5 04:07:03 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 02:07:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Old Apple price lists
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>


Where can I find an archive of old Apple price lists, particularly from 
the 70s and 80s?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 07:30:29 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 08:30:29 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <01O976V3GOAS002XYM@beyondthepale.ie>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01O976V3GOAS002XYM@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <C4EBE3BA-9EAD-4263-A83B-D4FCA3386164@gmail.com>

On Dec 4, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:

> The setup works but it's not ideal. The biggest problem is when I swap the
> CF card, the combination sulks until I power both adapters off and on again
> together. I vaguely recall that a more expensive ACARD adapter (or possibly
> IDE to CF adapter - I forget which) may have offered the ability to hotswap
> the card.

I think you'll find that problem with most IDE<->CF adaptors; if they're using CF's native IDE mode, the card is as hotswappable as a regular disk (i.e. not at all, and you risk frying something).  I suppose someone might make an IDE<->CF bridge that uses the card's regular memory mode, but I would imagine it's unusual simply because an IDE mode adaptor can be done completely passively.


- Dave





From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 07:36:46 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 08:36:46 -0500
Subject: institutional amnesia
In-Reply-To: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <DE9513D3-4D30-4021-A44D-43CB99A9E239@gmail.com>

On Dec 5, 2011, at 4:05 AM, Toby Thain wrote:

> I am sure many on the list will painfully recognise this scenario:
> http://wrttn.in/04af1a

Some of us remember it profitably. :-)  We had a steel mill as a client a year or two ago that needed to move from a Multibus system for which they could no longer easily obtain replacement parts.  We went with a cPCI system running a Core2 from National Instruments (I wasn't on this project, but they seemed pretty pleased with it aside from an odd race condition bug in an Ethernet driver which would bring the whole things to a screeching halt, which is a bad thing for a steel mill stand controller).

They had some documentation, but we had to reverse engineer some of it as well... it ended up being a very long process, but we produced several physical binders worth of information that we made sure they stashed next to the racks so they didn't get lost.

Interestingly enough, our machines were pressed into service before we had completely finished testing them because one of the Multibus machines died in a rather permanent way while we were testing its replacement.  It worked, though!


- Dave




From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec  5 10:37:52 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 10:37:52 -0600
Subject: Big iron for sale in Milwaukee - S.E.L. 810A
In-Reply-To: <1322421081.14338.YahooMailNeo@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com
 >
References: <1322421081.14338.YahooMailNeo@web110607.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <201112051638.pB5GcZoE045564@billy.ezwind.net>

At 01:11 PM 11/27/2011, steven stengel wrote:
>Vintage "Systems Engineering Laboratories" S.E.L. 810A computer from approx. 1967 is for sale. That's all I know. Upload your pictures once you buy it.

I haven't bought it, but I did receive email and pictures from
the seller.  If anyone is interested, I'd be glad to pass them along.

I dunno...  I'd call it "rough shape".  No terminal or tape drive
in the pics.  Circuit boards are present.  Might have some value 
to the gold scrappers.

- John




From david at classiccomputing.com  Mon Dec  5 10:43:01 2011
From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 11:43:01 -0500
Subject: "The Complete Historically Brewed" book
Message-ID: <33aaa9677591de1ddeeaaca4b0c290e3.squirrel@emailmg.netfirms.com>

Almost 100 copies were pre-sold through Kickstarter, but you can still buy
a copy of this First Edition / Special Kickstarter Edition - with very
limited supplies. Please email me directly if you're interested. Thanks!

http://www.classiccomputing.com/CC/HB_Book.html

Best,

David Greelish, Computer Historian
President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society

Classic Computing
The Home of Computer History Nostalgia
http://www.classiccomputing.com

Classic Computing Blog
Retro Computing Roundtable podcast
"Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast
Classic Computing Show video podcast





From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec  5 11:29:10 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 10:29:10 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <CAAVQg1v_fRfn9_xw_XgbJSGZT3pddiD4rt=4PTaCkuR2B4w9+w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <p0624081ecaff552faa18@192.168.1.157>
 <CAAVQg1v_fRfn9_xw_XgbJSGZT3pddiD4rt=4PTaCkuR2B4w9+w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RXcLm-0001y4-Gd@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAAVQg1v_fRfn9_xw_XgbJSGZT3pddiD4rt=4PTaCkuR2B4w9+w at mail.gmail.com>,
    joe lobocki <jlobocki at gmail.com> writes:

> Those SGIs seem to have taken quite a beating.

They're SGIs.  The plastic skins get scuffed quite easily.  When the machines
are 15-20 years old, perfect skins requir that they have been treated nicely
for a very, very long time.  When they're free you don't get to bitch about
skins, either.

> the bigger question is, how
> many of the lightbars still work in the octanes? Ive got mine modded with
> "incandescent white" LEDs.

IIRC, when we did an equipment checkout of them last year, all the ones that
powered up had working lightbars.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From arcarlini at iee.org  Mon Dec  5 12:33:57 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 18:33:57 -0000
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <01O976V3GOAS002XYM@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <04A03306F3504CB7B1D935890E4FF047@ANTONIOPC>

Peter Coghlan [CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie] wrote:
> I've got a similar setup:
> 
> - an ACARD AEC7720U SCSI to IDE bridge adapter which I bought
> from the UK
>   for approx UKP 46 including VAT, airmail postage etc.
> 
> - an IDE to CF adapter which I bought of DealExtreme, Hong
> Kong for about EUR5.
> 
> The ACARD adapter is connected to the narrow SCSI bus in a
> DEC Alpha running
> VMS. I use this for reading CF cards, not for running VMS
> from a CF card.

UKP 46? Just looking on the web suggests nearer USD 249 for that
part. At UKP 46 I'd grab one (or more) for my VS4000 ...

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org




From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec  5 12:44:52 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 11:44:52 -0700
Subject: Official DEC card mechanical specs
In-Reply-To: <083395875B27429087BB3FFE5DDD392C@ANTONIOPC>
References: <083395875B27429087BB3FFE5DDD392C@ANTONIOPC>
Message-ID: <E1RXdX2-0004f3-Gw@shell.xmission.com>


In article <083395875B27429087BB3FFE5DDD392C at ANTONIOPC>,
    <arcarlini at iee.org> writes:

> EK-BA200-DG-001 BA200 Series Module Design Guide.

<http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/antonio/ek-ba200-dg-001.pdf>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec  5 12:47:35 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 11:47:35 -0700
Subject: manx mirror archive restored
Message-ID: <E1RXdZf-0005FE-FM@shell.xmission.com>

There were a bunch of documents that used to be mirrored on vt100.net.
Someone sent me a tarball with a partial backup and I found another
place on the net that had a backup copy of the mirrored documents.
I've transferred them over to manx.classiccmp.org and you can browse
them here:

<http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/>

I've also grabbed some stuff from vt100.net in case that content
disappears again.

At some point the manx database will have its URLs updated, but that
is a lower priority item at the moment.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ploopster at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 13:38:33 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:38:33 -0500
Subject: Harvard v. von Neumann
In-Reply-To: <4EDBEDB5.31537.2C14C94@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4941DAC0.50101@gmail.com>
 <4EDBEDB5.31537.2C14C94@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD1DB9.2070308@gmail.com>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 11 Dec 2008 at 22:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>
>> According to what I've read, the Burroughs B5000 and Manchester Atlas
>> were both Harvard architecture and the GE-645 was von Neumann.  Am I
>> correct in my understanding?
>
> Better 3 years late than never, I guess.
>
> I've had this time-warp happen when I updated email clients.  Failed-
> to-send messages got shunted off to a "pending" queue and forgotten
> and the updated client notices after copying over the old mail
> messages that some didn't get sent.
>
> So it sends 'em, no matter that it's years late.
>
> I wonder if that's what's going on here.

I'd bet it is.  I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.5.  Usually Seamonkey 
upgrades are pretty clean, but apparently the 2.5 mail/news upgrade 
brainfarts a bit.  Sorry for the noise.

Peace...  Sridhar


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 14:37:18 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 14:37:18 -0600
Subject: Harvard v. von Neumann
In-Reply-To: <4EDD1DB9.2070308@gmail.com>
References: <4941DAC0.50101@gmail.com>
 <4EDBEDB5.31537.2C14C94@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4EDD1DB9.2070308@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs207tKRsavtQuR7BtnaUH=ATSw3mFHa3uW23F8ppOg6egQ@mail.gmail.com>

lol

On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:

> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> On 11 Dec 2008 at 22:30, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>>
>>  According to what I've read, the Burroughs B5000 and Manchester Atlas
>>> were both Harvard architecture and the GE-645 was von Neumann.  Am I
>>> correct in my understanding?
>>>
>>
>> Better 3 years late than never, I guess.
>>
>> I've had this time-warp happen when I updated email clients.  Failed-
>> to-send messages got shunted off to a "pending" queue and forgotten
>> and the updated client notices after copying over the old mail
>> messages that some didn't get sent.
>>
>> So it sends 'em, no matter that it's years late.
>>
>> I wonder if that's what's going on here.
>>
>
> I'd bet it is.  I just upgraded to Seamonkey 2.5.  Usually Seamonkey
> upgrades are pretty clean, but apparently the 2.5 mail/news upgrade
> brainfarts a bit.  Sorry for the noise.
>
> Peace...  Sridhar
>


From neko at nekochan.net  Mon Dec  5 14:45:30 2011
From: neko at nekochan.net (Pete Plank)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 12:45:30 -0800
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>


On Dec 5, 2011, at 2:07 AM, David Griffith wrote:

> 
> Where can I find an archive of old Apple price lists, particularly from the 70s and 80s?
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

No idea on an existent archive, but I have an Apple Suggested Retail Price List, January 1, 1982 I can scan in if there's interest. 

Pete Plank




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec  5 16:35:39 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 22:35:39 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: WS2000 - Re: Tandata (Tantel) Viewdata terminal configuration
In-Reply-To: <4EDBD124.7020003@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at
 Dec 4, 11 07:59:32 pm
Message-ID: <m1RXh8V-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > [1] An old Miracle WS2000, the black box with 3 knobs on the front that 
> > weas commonly used with the BBC micro. It's an AM7910 and not much else, 
> > I like it because it can be controlled from the front paenl rotary 
> > swiches, and I Know exactly what it's going to do. Since I only use it on 
> > a private system (my line simulator), I've eneabled the Bell modes by 
> > remove the pin from the rotary switch. I'd love to find the autodial and 
> > answer boards for it, but no chance...
> 
> There's also a kit (SK-1) to add a few parts which allow full software 

I hadn't realised there was an official kit for that. I assume it alllows 
full control via the 'user port' connector on the back, which is clearly 
designed to conenct to a BBC micro user port. Incidentally, a couple of 
the lines on that connector fo to the bases of NPN transistors (emitters 
grounded) with a resistive pull-up, so you should drive them from an 
open-collector or weakly pulled-up pin. The BCC user prot should be fine, 
but take care if you're using something else.

> control.  Miracle Technology used to scrape off the IC type numbers in a 
> vain attempt to prevent people working out what they were, and as you 

Oh that stupid trick. It must delay my invesigations by at least 5 minutes...

> can imagine I immediately decided to work out what they were.  Diagram 
> available if required :-) along with the original MT documentation.

Now, I don;'t have the official odcumentaiton, nor the kit. And my modem 
didn't have the computer control ICs fitted when I got it. 

Still, here are my 'instructions'. Please tell me what I got wrong.

Remove the frotn panel/modem PCB, take off the knobs and the nuts under 
them. Separate the frotn panel (so you can see the component side of the 
PCB. Take out that silly pin fro mthe mode switch that disabled the Bell 
modes (required, I beleive, for BT approval)

Cut or desolder links J8, J9, J10, J11, J12, J13

Fit ICs : IC3 '155, IC5 '42 (Actually, isn't that needed for one of the 
split-baud-rate modes to work correctly, maybe a Bell one), and IC6 '192

Reassemble.


> One problem you sometimes find when the SK-1 kit and/or 
> autodial/autoanswer boards are fitted is that the internal 5V line gets 
> very noisy, and the modem does odd things due to switching glitches. 
> Really only a problem if you install SK1.  Thin tracks and small 

Hmm... I've foen the above mod and never had any problems. Naybe it's 
only a problem if you use the computer interface .The PSU circuit has a 
resisotr in series with the input to VR2 (77805. the +5V regulator) and 
another one ins series iwth te inptu to VR3 (79L05), I assume to reduce 
disipation in said regualtotrs. And to allow the inputs to wobble all 
over the place. I would guess adding a capacitor from the input pin of 
those 2 regualtors to grounds would be a good idea. 

> smoothing capacitors around the regulator are the problem, easy fixed 
> with a little extra wire and a couple of caps.
> 
> Actually I might have a spare autodial board.  Originally there was 
> supposed to be a single autodial-autoanswer (AA1) board but that was 
> withdrawn because of trouble with BABT.  Later came separate autodial 

Interesting. My modem has 3 sets of SIL headers inside, labelled as for a 
dialer PCB, an answewr PCB anmd a TTL converter PCB. The last carries 
power lines and the RS232 por signals, so presumably that board was a set 
of 1488s and 1489s to convert the RS232 signals to TTL.

> (AD2) autoanswer (AA2) boards and I remember both being quite simple.

They probably were simple (the rest of the modem is), and I am sure I 
could come up with something if I needed to. But for interest the 
originals would be nice.
 
> AD2 needed the software control kit (the older board didn't, it was 
> entirely controlled by the DTR line) but the AA2 didn't.  I worked out 

I ownder why... The dialer and answer PCBs connect to the port lines on 
the user port conenctors, as do the SK1 ICs, but I can't see why you need 
SK1 fitted. 

> schematics for some of them, but the autoanswer board I built and used 
> worked in a slightly different way, using "ringback".

[...]

> Can't help much with the Tantel, I'm afraid.  I did some work with 
> SoftMachinery for Acorn's Prestel ROM, and although I used to have the 
> source for the Tantel driver (called "tantrum" because of its 
> "reliability") I can't find it now.  I used WS2000s and wrote drivers 
> for those ("madam", because it could be a little m.. with some version 
> of the ROM code).

THe Tantel unit I have is a stnadalone viewdata terminal (of the type 
used for hom banking, etc before the days of the web), it doesn't conenct 
to a home micro. 

The main ICs are a 6504 (CPU, a 6502 with feew signals brought out, for
example onl 13 address lines), 2732A (4K firmware EPROM), 6810 (128 bytes
of RAM), 5101 (256 nybbles of battery-backed CMOS RAM), SAA5020 (teletext
video timing chain), SAA5050 (teletext character generator), a pair of
2114s (video RAM), TEA1002 (PAL video encoder), SAA5070 (Modem, UART, etc)
and a bit of TTL. There's a daughterbord identfied as 'filter module'
which contians the Tx andRx filters, tape loading amplifier (this thing 
can same/load viewdata scereens on tape), etc. 

Not too suprisingly, the modem coupling circuitry is simialr to that in 
the HH Tiger. The RGB socket pinout is also the same as that on the Tiger 
(only o nthis list would you find somebody comparing soemthing to the HH 
Tiger...)

I am annoyed that I cna't figure out how to configuer the dialer. I've 
worked out jsut abotu everything else. and I've shown it can work. 
Setting up the number to dial should be so easy, but I can't spot it. 
I've even dumped the firmware and looked for useful text in it, nothing.
 
-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec  5 16:44:35 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 22:44:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Archiving ST-506 drives
In-Reply-To: <20FCCCB8-6484-404E-AB1E-FAC8F29344A2@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent
 Hilpert" at Dec 4, 11 01:15:03 pm
Message-ID: <m1RXhH8-000J49C@p850ug1>

> > I think the difference between our approachies is that you're
> > consisderign a drive and a particular controller combination, I am
> > considering jus tthe drive.
> 
> Well, I wasn't really thinking of the controller, rather the signal  
> one typically sees, which - if you like - implies a controller, as  
> something wrote the original signal.
> 
> The original context of the thread was recovering digital data from  
> an ST-506 drive, albeit one with unknown controller characteristics,  
> "Waveforms" were mentioned. I allowed for the benefit of using an  
> analog-in-the-time-domain assessment of the signal from the drive in  
> my first message.

Indeed. The point being that for that data to exist, a controller must 
have formatted and written to the drive.

Now I will gladly accept that (just about?) any ST506 controller writes 
digital data ot the drive by using pulses with only a few differnet 
seaprations. Exaclty what pulse seaprations are valid, thoug, does depend 
o nthe controler that wrote the data.

So if you don;t know much about the cotnroller, it's proably best to hink 
of this as a time-analogue signal, sample it as such amd then decode it.

> If there is a debate still it seems to be one of semantics. Is a wire  
> interconnecting a gate output and gate input of two TTL ICs in a  
> synchronous system analog? Or is it an analog *link*? Or is it just  
> *capable* - if extracted for another use - of being an analog link?  

I would argure a piece of wire could be used as analosgue link, althogh 
here it's carrying a digital signal.

Suppose youy have a wire that you know is carrying a digital 2-state 
signal. It would be foolish to assume it _must_ be a TTL level signal. 
You'd start (or at leat I'd start) by looking at it as an analogue signal 
(using a 'scope, say) and then figure out what hte votlage lewves were. 
Once that's known, you'd then tread ti as a digital signal.

And I feel the ST506 problem is the same, albeit in the time domain, not 
the voltage domain. Start by treating the time as 'analuge', only afte 
you realise how the data is encoded do you try to 'digitise' the pulse 
spacings.

-tony



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec  5 17:47:32 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:47:32 +1100
Subject: institutional amnesia
In-Reply-To: <DE9513D3-4D30-4021-A44D-43CB99A9E239@gmail.com>
References: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <DE9513D3-4D30-4021-A44D-43CB99A9E239@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD5814.8030201@telegraphics.com.au>

On 06/12/11 12:36 AM, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 5, 2011, at 4:05 AM, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>> I am sure many on the list will painfully recognise this scenario:
>> http://wrttn.in/04af1a
>
> Some of us remember it profitably. :-) We had a steel mill as a
> client
a year or two ago that needed to move from a Multibus system for which
they could no longer easily obtain replacement parts. We went with a
cPCI system running a Core2 from National Instruments (I wasn't on this
project, but they seemed pretty pleased with it aside from an odd race
condition bug in an Ethernet driver which would bring the whole things
to a screeching halt, which is a bad thing for a steel mill stand
controller).

Did they know about comparable bugs in the older system? Can you 
describe the older system a bit more? What did it run? (I have three 
80386 Multibus systems, Australian Labtam brand).

--T

>
> They had some documentation, but we had to reverse engineer some of
> it
as well... it ended up being a very long process, but we produced
several physical binders worth of information that we made sure they
stashed next to the racks so they didn't get lost.
>
> Interestingly enough, our machines were pressed into service before
> we
had completely finished testing them because one of the Multibus
machines died in a rather permanent way while we were testing its
replacement. It worked, though!
>
>
> - Dave
>
>
>



From silent700 at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 18:59:36 2011
From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 18:59:36 -0600
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
Message-ID: <CAEfH1SHUxnqu9EyJhhX1hZkRbo1SWKF3LjSzv_cqbnoazpYT1Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/5/11, Pete Plank <neko at nekochan.net> wrote:
> No idea on an existent archive, but I have an Apple Suggested Retail Price
> List, January 1, 1982 I can scan in if there's interest.

I'd definitely like to see that.  I can host it at our docs archive as well:

http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec  5 20:22:55 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 02:22:55 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca> <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com>
 <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGsGW_TesObN3wT1m6XtBGVdANBxorz+h7iV2tbXhwxtA@mail.gmail.com>

On 4 December 2011 18:54, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mine
> host is a book dealer, sells a lot on Abe, & works solely from home with no
> shop.

Joys of predictive text entry on a keyboardless smartphone. Er, when
drunk. That was /meant/ to say "I am on my way home..." 8?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec  5 20:33:32 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 18:33:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGsGW_TesObN3wT1m6XtBGVdANBxorz+h7iV2tbXhwxtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com> <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGsGW_TesObN3wT1m6XtBGVdANBxorz+h7iV2tbXhwxtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111205183221.Q90163@shell.lmi.net>

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Liam Proven wrote:
> > As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mine
> Joys of predictive text entry on a keyboardless smartphone. Er, when
> drunk. That was /meant/ to say "I am on my way home..." 8?)

Damn.

I thought that it was a nice colorful idiomatic expression.



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec  5 20:41:01 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 13:41:01 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
 Australia
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGsGW_TesObN3wT1m6XtBGVdANBxorz+h7iV2tbXhwxtA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4ED62214.6070507@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4ED98F04.7030002@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE8QYjPPXjhu_+D_hpDP_MsztZhUV+DRSnH=GcrjRfmpQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4ED99934.3040103@telegraphics.com.au> <4ED9A423.60309@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4ED9B7B0.7010604@neurotica.com> <4ED9D847.6010702@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <4EDAA831.8030309@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCGERf-QFBW_b0vP+9UejS1RFxk+O0TCJO00h5zHSwwa-g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGsGW_TesObN3wT1m6XtBGVdANBxorz+h7iV2tbXhwxtA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD80BD.9070007@telegraphics.com.au>

On 06/12/11 1:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 4 December 2011 18:54, Liam Proven<lproven at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mine
>> host is a book dealer, sells a lot on Abe,&  works solely from home with no
>> shop.
>
> Joys of predictive text entry on a keyboardless smartphone. Er, when
> drunk. That was /meant/ to say "I am on my way home..." 8?)
>

I just thought it was some bizarre British idiom I hadn't heard of. :)

--T


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Dec  5 20:38:29 2011
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 21:38:29 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>

>Richard wrote:

>I've moved the collection of the Computer Graphics Museum to its new
>home in Salt Lake City and now I'm organizing the collection.  Here
>are some pics of everything sprawled out over the floor during the
>initial move: <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/index.html>
>  
>
The only thing that I easily recognize are the VT100 terminals.

Are there any PDP-11 Qbus systems?  If so, which version
of which operating system do they run?

Jerome Fine



From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Dec  5 20:39:49 2011
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 21:39:49 -0500
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: <C4EBE3BA-9EAD-4263-A83B-D4FCA3386164@gmail.com>
References: <4ED7DBAF.5000306@philpem.me.uk>
 <1322771057.4100.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
 <01O976V3GOAS002XYM@beyondthepale.ie>
 <C4EBE3BA-9EAD-4263-A83B-D4FCA3386164@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD8075.8080803@compsys.to>

>David Riley wrote:

>>On Dec 4, 2011, at 2:50 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote:
>
>>The setup works but it's not ideal. The biggest problem is when I swap the
>>CF card, the combination sulks until I power both adapters off and on again
>>together. I vaguely recall that a more expensive ACARD adapter (or possibly
>>IDE to CF adapter - I forget which) may have offered the ability to hotswap
>>the card.
>>
>I think you'll find that problem with most IDE<->CF adaptors; if they're using
>CF's native IDE mode, the card is as hotswappable as a regular disk (i.e. not
>at all, and you risk frying something).  I suppose someone might make an IDE<->CF
>bridge that uses the card's regular memory mode, but I would imagine it's unusual
>simply because an IDE mode adaptor can be done completely passively.

My son did some extensive R&D for an IDE<->CF adapter for
systems used for a bowling ally.  Initially, they would not boot
the operating system, so something special was required.

All of the hardware, including the CF card, was under $ 50
in small lots of about 10.  The cost would probably be much
less in larger lots.

As for SCSI drives, I purchased some RZ28D-E drives (just
a Seagate ST32550N drives - or 2 GB) over ten years ago.
I have not needed to use then lately since I am using 1 TB
SATA drives these days.  But I would be very surprised
if more than 10% of them were not working.

Likewise, I have a few Sony SMO S-501 drives which use
295 MB media (actually doubled sided media - but only one
side of the media can be used at any time) with a large number
of the media.  They are rather slow compared to everything
new these days, but 10 years ago they were still my primary
backup for both the PDP-11 and the PC.

Jerome Fine




From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Dec  5 20:41:04 2011
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 21:41:04 -0500
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>

 >John Willis wrote:

>>>madodel wrote:
>>    
>>
>>>And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
>>>internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just
>>>LAN networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as
>>>well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a
>>>full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995.
>>>      
>>>
>not quite true. OS/2 extended edition included a TCP/IP stack as early as
>v1.1 iirc.
>
I think that it is fair to include an operating system which has
distinct device drivers for all hardware as having built-in support
for that hardware.  For example, support for MSCP (or SCSI)
hard drives first became available under RT-11 around 1985.
Note that DEC itself did not have a SCSI host adapter at the
time - CMD produced a 3rd party Qbus host adapter.  But
SCSI hard drives could be used.  The other PDP-11 operating
systems each had their DU device drives.

Just because the DU.SYS device driver was a separate file
should not preclude fact that the operating system did not
have built-in support for SCSI hard drives - even though DEC
did not support SCSI hard drive use until the RQZX1 host
adapter many years later.

Likewise, my opinion is that the PDP-11 (and probably
other DEC systems) could be said to have internet access
via a device driver which handled ether net or in some cases
other software using dialup modems.  The question of an
TCP/IP stack is not software I am familiar with, but again,
just because that software was in a device driver (assuming
that to be the case) should still not prevent a user from saying
that there is built-in support for the internet.

I am probably wrong in making the above comments since
using the TCP/IP stack is not part of my experience.  But
how the software was implemented under the PDP-11
operating systems, especially RT-11, with separate files
for the device drivers should not have precluded making
the statement that the operating system had built-in support
for the internet - in the same manner as RT-11 first had
support for SCSI hard drives around 1983.

Zane Healy, and especially Megan Gentry, would probably
be able to comment with more authority on this question.
For my self, I used a dial-up modem to connect to the
internet on a PDP-11 about 15 years ago, but very little
more.

Jerome Fine


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec  5 21:55:29 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 5 Dec 2011 22:55:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <201112060355.WAA03205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Are there any PDP-11 Qbus systems?

Yes, for suitable values of "PDP-11".  The ones I'm familiar with were
sold labeled "LSI-11", I think, but they are real PDP-11s for any
software purpose, just Qbus instead of Unibus.  (I could be slightly
wrong, since I never was all _that_ familair with them.)

> If so, which version of which operating system do they run?

Any that isn't tied to Unibus-specific hardware, as far as I know, but,
again, I was never very familiar with them, and that was years ago
besides.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec  5 23:57:54 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 21:57:54 -0800
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EDDAEE2.3090605@brouhaha.com>

madodel wrote, apparently several years ago:
 > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
 > internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just
 > LAN networking?

WfW 3.11 didn't include Internet support, it was an addon.  Anyhow, WfW 
3.11 wasn't introduced until 1993, while BSD 4.2 included Internet 
support and was introduced in August 1983.  BSD 4.1a had Internet 
support, and was "released" in April 1982, but was not intended for wide 
distribution.  Since the IP-based Internet only came into existence on 
January 1, 1983, it is unlikely that there were too many operating 
systems with Internet support introduced earlier than BSD.

If you count support for ARPANET, the direct predecessor of the 
Internet, TOPS-20AN existed at least as early as 1980.



From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 00:12:17 2011
From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:12:17 +1100
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4EDDAEE2.3090605@brouhaha.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EDDAEE2.3090605@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CANt3_LY6nJ60pbvaoW3sC-jCDA5GrNW00PMP3otu8dbGZ3ht8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:

> If you count support for ARPANET, the direct predecessor of the Internet,
> TOPS-20AN existed at least as early as 1980.
>

Using a hasty definition of "Internet" as loosely connected machines from
different organisations which could at least pass email/files around, how
does UUCP fit into this timeline? Note the map from 1981 shows some
interesting players in the UUCP-world:

http://www.uucp.org/history/uucp-map-1981.html

UUCP was part of UNIX V7 in 1979; I couldn't find any earlier UUCP maps
other than the one from 1981 above.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec  6 00:47:38 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:47:38 +1100
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4EDDAEE2.3090605@brouhaha.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net> <4EDDAEE2.3090605@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EDDBA8A.5050503@telegraphics.com.au>

On 06/12/11 4:57 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> madodel wrote, apparently several years ago:
>  > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
>  > internet access? Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just
>  > LAN networking?
>
> WfW 3.11 didn't include Internet support, it was an addon. Anyhow, WfW
> 3.11 wasn't introduced until 1993, while BSD 4.2 included Internet
> support and was introduced in August 1983. BSD 4.1a had Internet
> support, and was "released" in April 1982, but was not intended for wide
> distribution. Since the IP-based Internet only came into existence on
> January 1, 1983, it is unlikely that there were too many operating
> systems with Internet support introduced earlier than BSD.
>
> If you count support for ARPANET, the direct predecessor of the
> Internet, TOPS-20AN existed at least as early as 1980.


Surprised it took so long for this to be mentioned, thanks!

--Toby


From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Dec  6 00:48:37 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 22:48:37 -0800
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <CAEfH1SHUxnqu9EyJhhX1hZkRbo1SWKF3LjSzv_cqbnoazpYT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
 <CAEfH1SHUxnqu9EyJhhX1hZkRbo1SWKF3LjSzv_cqbnoazpYT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDDBAC5.6010803@jwsss.com>

I hate to bring it up, but there was litigation about Apple's control of 
the pricing of their products.  Does this actually stem from that?  I 
know that at least one dealer had an ongoing lawsuit over being able to 
advertise, sell as they desired, and the law was far from settled.

as usual, the court system screwed the little guy in their 
interpretation (IMHO) and Apple and such won.  I think that if laws were 
made allowing manufacturers which are making commodity units command the 
prices they should be invalidated.  there is a hugh "channel" which has 
built up which makes a lot of money, and has moved the distribution of 
products up to larger players, rather than allow individual people to 
make deals, they force prices onto the resellers.

If all the deals were truly independent you would have retained a free 
market, rather than the bloated and largely useless "channel" 
distributors out there.  At least their business models would be way 
different, and the discounts and money would still being made by smaller 
dealers out in the areas where consumption and use is made, rather than 
by the large corporations.

This is probably is way off topic of the original poster, but the price 
list put forth by Apple was key to the litigation since the dealer in 
question refused to recognize that they had to follow it.  To this day, 
apple maintains a stranglehold over their prices, and are substantially 
higher than if dealers could sell over their costs in any way they 
wanted to.

Jim

On 12/5/2011 4:59 PM, Jason T wrote:
> On 12/5/11, Pete Plank<neko at nekochan.net>  wrote:
>> No idea on an existent archive, but I have an Apple Suggested Retail Price
>> List, January 1, 1982 I can scan in if there's interest.
> I'd definitely like to see that.  I can host it at our docs archive as well:
>
> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/
>
>


From CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie  Mon Dec  5 15:07:05 2011
From: CCTECH at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan)
Date: Mon, 05 Dec 2011 21:07:05 +0000 (WET)
Subject: SCSI replacements (was Re: Data General computer)
In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 05 Dec 2011 18:33:57 +0000"
 <04A03306F3504CB7B1D935890E4FF047@ANTONIOPC>
References: <01O976V3GOAS002XYM@beyondthepale.ie>
Message-ID: <01O98MLQXTUC002Y5P@beyondthepale.ie>

>> - an ACARD AEC7720U SCSI to IDE bridge adapter which I bought
>> from the UK
>>   for approx UKP 46 including VAT, airmail postage etc.
>> 
>> - an IDE to CF adapter which I bought of DealExtreme, Hong
>> Kong for about EUR5.
>> 
>> The ACARD adapter is connected to the narrow SCSI bus in a
>> DEC Alpha running
>> VMS. I use this for reading CF cards, not for running VMS
>> from a CF card.
>
>UKP 46? Just looking on the web suggests nearer USD 249 for that
>part. At UKP 46 I'd grab one (or more) for my VS4000 ...
>

I bought it in March 2008 from Worldspan Communications. Checking their website
http://www.span.com now, they are quoting me prices in Euro instead of UKP and
they are looking for EUR 104.73 including VAT (but excluding postage I think).

I think there was a big difference between the price of the narrow version and
the wide version at the time and that convinced me to buy the narrow version.
I don't remember but I probably did a bit of hunting to find a good price.

I briefly checked mine worked with an IDE disk when I got it but I haven't
checked to see how fast it is or whether there are any gotyas.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


From RichA at vulcan.com  Tue Dec  6 01:55:43 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 07:55:43 +0000
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Tom
Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM

> Interesting article about the 40th anniversary of 
> the progenitor of many modern operating systems. 
> It even mentions our very own Al Kossow,

> "One holy grail that eluded us for a long time 
> was the first edition of Unix in any form, 
> electronic or otherwise. Then, in 2006, Al Kossow 

_Pace_ Warren, this is *NOT* "the first edition of Unix in any form".

What Al found is the ____PDP-11____ version of Unix.  The *FIRST* edition
was written in PDP-7 assembler cross-compiled on a GE 635, and as far as
DMR could tell was completely lost.

Sorry, but as curator for the only (known) running PDP-7 on the planet,
I'd be a lot more interested in that.

("1st Edition" Unix for the PDP-11 is cool, but I'm going to insist on
 accuracy from the professionals, and Warren is very much a professional.)


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From cctech at vax-11.org  Tue Dec  6 02:37:19 2011
From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 01:37:19 -0700 (MST)
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl><a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com><BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl><18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL><BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl><20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112060125330.13462@daffy.vax-11.org>



On Sun, 20 Jul 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:

> madodel wrote:
> > And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
>> internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just LAN 
>> networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as well as 
>> a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a full TCP/IP 
>> stack until Warp Connect in 1995.  I assume Unix, Linux, AppleOS or AmigaOS 
>> must have had this prior to that?  I remember all those damn AOL floppy 
>> disks for all the windows users.  FORMAT A: was a good use for them.
>
> I used PPP (or it might have been SLIP) on Ultrix LONG before 1995.  And it 
> also makes a difference as to what you mean by "internet access". UUCP could 
> fall into that criterion, and has been built-into certain operating systems 
> for a *very* long time.
>
> Peace...  Sridhar
>

I don't think you can include UUCP as "internet access", though it is/was 
a networking system.

I would argue that the Internet was built upon the Internet Protocol which
was initial described in a research paper published in May 1974 (Cerf and 
Kahn), though it wasn't in it's current form at that time. TCP and IP were
described as a single protocol.

RCF8 describes Arpanet in 1969, but I don't have a copy of it. It is my 
understanding Arpanet was a completely different protocol, and the 
Internet was built on the wiring of Arpanet, but little else.

Of course, my memory could be completely flawed in all of this too.

Clint



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 04:52:51 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 08:52:51 -0200
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <4EDDBAC5.6010803@jwsss.com>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
 <CAEfH1SHUxnqu9EyJhhX1hZkRbo1SWKF3LjSzv_cqbnoazpYT1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDDBAC5.6010803@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <044278F6-E301-49EA-B97E-6519D5F74DE2@gmail.com>

A curiosity:
In Brazil, land of high prices and huge customs' taxes, apple prices in "authorized" shops are fixed...and equal to apple's site. And not much overprice over the USA prices. Only the iphone has a HUGE markup. Crazy.

Enviado via iPhone

Em 06/12/2011, ?s 04:48, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> escreveu:

> I hate to bring it up, but there was litigation about Apple's control of the pricing of their products.  Does this actually stem from that?  I know that at least one dealer had an ongoing lawsuit over being able to advertise, sell as they desired, and the law was far from settled.
> 
> as usual, the court system screwed the little guy in their interpretation (IMHO) and Apple and such won.  I think that if laws were made allowing manufacturers which are making commodity units command the prices they should be invalidated.  there is a hugh "channel" which has built up which makes a lot of money, and has moved the distribution of products up to larger players, rather than allow individual people to make deals, they force prices onto the resellers.
> 
> If all the deals were truly independent you would have retained a free market, rather than the bloated and largely useless "channel" distributors out there.  At least their business models would be way different, and the discounts and money would still being made by smaller dealers out in the areas where consumption and use is made, rather than by the large corporations.
> 
> This is probably is way off topic of the original poster, but the price list put forth by Apple was key to the litigation since the dealer in question refused to recognize that they had to follow it.  To this day, apple maintains a stranglehold over their prices, and are substantially higher than if dealers could sell over their costs in any way they wanted to.
> 
> Jim
> 
> On 12/5/2011 4:59 PM, Jason T wrote:
>> On 12/5/11, Pete Plank<neko at nekochan.net>  wrote:
>>> No idea on an existent archive, but I have an Apple Suggested Retail Price
>>> List, January 1, 1982 I can scan in if there's interest.
>> I'd definitely like to see that.  I can host it at our docs archive as well:
>> 
>> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/
>> 
>> 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 07:29:00 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 08:29:00 -0500
Subject: institutional amnesia
In-Reply-To: <4EDD5814.8030201@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EDC896D.1090005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <DE9513D3-4D30-4021-A44D-43CB99A9E239@gmail.com>
 <4EDD5814.8030201@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <993E69CC-EC23-4FF9-8E49-7D95EC444E80@gmail.com>

On Dec 5, 2011, at 6:47 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

> Did they know about comparable bugs in the older system? Can you describe the older system a bit more? What did it run? (I have three 80386 Multibus systems, Australian Labtam brand).

I could describe it more if I were on the project... all I know is that it was an older Multibus system that was just powerful enough to handle the load.  The NI system was completely new and unrelated to the old system (including the OS), so I don't think it would be a matter of "comparable bugs".  Our team ended up finally tracing the problem down enough that NI could find it and fix it.

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 07:40:59 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 08:40:59 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <201112060355.WAA03205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>
 <201112060355.WAA03205@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <6BDB9752-F637-459B-81FB-D4F62D764AAB@gmail.com>

On Dec 5, 2011, at 10:55 PM, Mouse wrote:

>> Are there any PDP-11 Qbus systems?
> 
> Yes, for suitable values of "PDP-11".  The ones I'm familiar with were
> sold labeled "LSI-11", I think, but they are real PDP-11s for any
> software purpose, just Qbus instead of Unibus.  (I could be slightly
> wrong, since I never was all _that_ familair with them.)

The LSI-11 is the PDP-11/03.  QBUS is actually officially named the LSI-11 bus because it appeared with the 11/03 which was the first PDP-11 implemented with LSI logic instead of discrete SSI/MSI ICs.

Though I think what Jerome was asking is "given that there are VT100s in that collection, are there also QBUS PDP-11s in the collection?".

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 10:01:43 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 11:01:43 -0500
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com>


On Dec 5, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:

> >John Willis wrote:
> 
>>>> madodel wrote:
>>>   
>>>> And what was the first operating system to have builtin support for
>>>> internet access?  Did Windows for Workgroups have this or was that just
>>>> LAN networking?  OS/2 Warp had dial up internet access for IBM's ISP as
>>>> well as a SLIP dialer for other ISPs, when released in 1994, but not a
>>>> full TCP/IP stack until Warp Connect in 1995.
>>>>     
>> not quite true. OS/2 extended edition included a TCP/IP stack as early as
>> v1.1 iirc.
>> 
> I think that it is fair to include an operating system which has
> distinct device drivers for all hardware as having built-in support
> for that hardware.  For example, support for MSCP (or SCSI)
> hard drives first became available under RT-11 around 1985.
> Note that DEC itself did not have a SCSI host adapter at the
> time - CMD produced a 3rd party Qbus host adapter.  But
> SCSI hard drives could be used.  The other PDP-11 operating
> systems each had their DU device drives.
> 
> Just because the DU.SYS device driver was a separate file
> should not preclude fact that the operating system did not
> have built-in support for SCSI hard drives - even though DEC
> did not support SCSI hard drive use until the RQZX1 host
> adapter many years later.

As far as I know, no PDP-11 operating system had support for SCSI.  They may have supported MSCP drives, and SCSI may have been a popular implementation pathway for MSCP, but the underlying operating system had no knowledge of anything to do with SCSI.  RT-11 will work with an RQDX3 (not a SCSI controller) as well as it will with a CQD-220.

I'm not as familiar with VMS, but I assume it probably had more direct interfaces with SCSI than just MSCP (totally a guess, though; VAXen and Alpha machines had built-in SCSI and it seems like it would be prohibitive to build in MSCP-serving hardware just to drive the SCSI chipsets).

> Likewise, my opinion is that the PDP-11 (and probably
> other DEC systems) could be said to have internet access
> via a device driver which handled ether net or in some cases
> other software using dialup modems.  The question of an
> TCP/IP stack is not software I am familiar with, but again,
> just because that software was in a device driver (assuming
> that to be the case) should still not prevent a user from saying
> that there is built-in support for the internet.

That's a tougher nut to crack.  If you wanted, you could call a VT100 "Internet compatible" because you could dial up a modem with it (assuming you are able to type protocols, which is something of another matter).  I think the presence of a working TCP/IP stack (whether it's an add-on or not) is probably a more appropriate definition.

Another metric is whether it was available at the time of the system's release (or within a relatively short time).  You can retrofit an IP stack onto lots of things; hell, you can do it on an Apple II if you're running Contiki, but no one is going to say the Apple II was released with Internet support.


- Dave





From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 10:29:12 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:29:12 -0600
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
 <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>

David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 5, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
> That's a tougher nut to crack.  If you wanted, you could call a VT100
> "Internet compatible" because you could dial up a modem with it
> (assuming you are able to type protocols, which is something of another
> matter).  I think the presence of a working TCP/IP stack (whether it's
> an add-on or not) is probably a more appropriate definition.

I agree - but the original post seems to have mentioned "Internet access" 
rather than the use of TCP/IP, and arguing semantics while guessing 
original intent on this list is always fun ;)

Now you've got me wondering about various old routers with console 
interfaces - can they conceivably be classed as computers and hence be 
thrown into the discussion? :-)

cheers

Jules





From mtapley at swri.edu  Tue Dec  6 10:54:49 2011
From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:54:49 -0600
Subject: Idioms (was: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa...)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.501.1323178149.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.501.1323178149.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <p06240805cb03f85a6c79@[129.162.151.118]>

At 7:29 -0600 12/6/11, <cctalk-request at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Liam Proven wrote:
>  > > As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mine
>>  Joys of predictive text entry on a keyboardless smartphone. Er, when
>>  drunk. That was /meant/ to say "I am on my way home..." 8?)
>
>Damn.
>
>I thought that it was a nice colorful idiomatic expression.

LOL. I have always wondered where all the nice colorful British 
idiomatic expressions come from. At last I know!
-- 
						- Mark     210-379-4635
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Large Asteroids headed toward planets
inhabited by beings that don't have
technology adequate to stop them:

				Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward.


From jecel at merlintec.com  Tue Dec  6 11:54:32 2011
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:54:32 -0300 
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <201112061656.pB6Gupfa073751@billy.ezwind.net>

Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Tom
> Sent: Friday, December 02, 2011 5:23 PM
> 
> > Interesting article about the 40th anniversary of 
> > the progenitor of many modern operating systems. 
> > It even mentions our very own Al Kossow,
> 
> > "One holy grail that eluded us for a long time 
> > was the first edition of Unix in any form, 
> > electronic or otherwise. Then, in 2006, Al Kossow 
> 
> _Pace_ Warren, this is *NOT* "the first edition of Unix in any form".

This paper by the same author is far more detailed:

> http://epublications.bond.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1176&context=infotech_pubs

> What Al found is the ____PDP-11____ version of Unix.  The *FIRST* edition
> was written in PDP-7 assembler cross-compiled on a GE 635, and as far as
> DMR could tell was completely lost.

The paper I indicated explains all this. But it seems that "first
edition" refers to the manual instead of the software.

> Sorry, but as curator for the only (known) running PDP-7 on the planet,
> I'd be a lot more interested in that.

I had the impression that someone had announced this about a year or so
back. I looked at the listing but didn't pay too much attention. At the
time I thought I was looking at PDP-7 assembly (I am reasonably familiar
with the PDP-1 and PDP-11 and so would be unlikely to confuse the 7 and
11 even with a quick glance) but reading the paper it sure seems like I
actually saw the PDP-11 material described there.

This is very odd. I tried to remember where I saw this, but the obvious
places don't have it:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/dmr/
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bellLabs/unix/

The link in the article doesn't seem to be what I had seen:

http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/

The link there to the scanned document goes back to the bitsavers
directory I had mentioned, so it is likely my memory is playing tricks
on me and that this was a little longer ago than I remembered and
PDP-11. Looking at the text it doesn't look familiar, specially the
extensive "man pages" section. Very odd....

> ("1st Edition" Unix for the PDP-11 is cool, but I'm going to insist on
>  accuracy from the professionals, and Warren is very much a professional.)

The difference between "first Unix" and "first edition Unix" is subtle,
but accurate. It is also misleading for the general public, so I see
your point.

-- Jecel



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Dec  6 11:52:56 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 09:52:56 -0800
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <4EDE5678.3040801@bitsavers.org>

and here is a message I posted to the TUHS mailing list when he was starting
to work on the article. I think this would have been a more interesting direction
to take than just rehashing the history of Unix.

--

On 6/27/11 5:11 PM, Warren Toomey wrote:
 > All, IEEE Spectrum have asked me to write a paper on Unix to celebrate the
 > 40th anniversary of the release of 1st Edition in November 1971. I'm after
 > ideas&  suggestions!
 >

The notion that Unix provided a good enough set of system services that people
got on with building systems with a common set of tools. This included things
like the RATFOR-based portable operating systems that came out of Georgia Tech
and Laurence Livermore Labs. It took most of the 70's to get going, but by the
80's microprocessors were powerful enough that Unix would run well on them, and
that dovetailed with Stallman's efforts to get a freely available tool chain.

Contrast this with VMS/WinNT and the dozens of proprietary systems which survived
by vendor lock in.

Having lived through the OS wars inside Apple, it became clear that there weren't
enough developer resources available to build a new system from scratch, and the
value added wasn't in the core OS and tools, but the user environment. This appears
to have occurred to almost everyone else now as well. Go for product differentiators
and leverage as much freely available system infrastructure as you can.

I was just digging through some CDC documents we just received concerning the joint
CDC/NCR developments that happened in the early 70's, and was thinking how fast the
pace of system change is now. The system they started on in 1973 was ultimately
released almost 10 years later as the CYBER 180. By the end of the 80's they were
thinking of porting Unix to it. I can't imagine anyone taking 10 years today to
develop a new computer system, or thinking of writing an operating system and tool
chain from scratch.

Building on the 40 years of experience and not reinventing wheels
is the ultimate legacy of the Unix system.




From barythrin at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  6 11:54:33 2011
From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 09:54:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <1323194073.46774.YahooMailClassic@web161203.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

My google-fu wasn't doing to well, or maybe it was the coffee but I thought that a few tech magazines have been officially online now via google docs and other services that *may* have some ads in them, I just couldn't quickly find the archives.  Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure google archived all of Popular Mechanics (well ok I see Popular Science showing up with some searches) which may have some fun articles and announcements.  (here's an example with an ugly url http://books.google.com/books?id=q0qVc8dQrpgC&lpg=PA14&dq=apple&pg=PA15#v=onepage&q=apple&f=false).

The only bad part is it might only be searching the article text and not advertisements, but that's only bad in that you get to sift through some back issues of the magazine and read some entertaining stuff while searching yourself ;-)

- John

--- On Mon, 12/5/11, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:

> From: David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
> Subject: Old Apple price lists
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Monday, December 5, 2011, 4:07 AM
> 
> Where can I find an archive of old Apple price lists,
> particularly from the 70s and 80s?


From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Dec  6 12:02:02 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:02:02 -0800
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <4EDE5678.3040801@bitsavers.org>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <4EDE5678.3040801@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EDE589A.7010801@bitsavers.org>

On 12/5/11 11:55 PM, Rich Alderson wrote:

 > Sorry, but as curator for the only (known) running PDP-7 on the planet,
 > I'd be a lot more interested in that.
 >

I tried chasing down what claimed to be a PDP-7 Unix listing that someone
in a Canadian university (Toronto, Waterloo?) years ago. There was a posting
mentioning it's existence somewhere, but I can't find the reference after a
quick search.

I did find

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.california/browse_thread/thread/1a174e2a776fc399/8709af3ac6bcb2f7?q=toronto+pdp-7+unix&pli=1

which is a better description of the early history than Warren's



[ copy of posting deleted ] for some reason I don't seem to be able to add this message with it there.



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec  6 12:37:15 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:37:15 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <E1RXztD-0008KY-R6@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EDD8025.8030109 at compsys.to>,
    "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> writes:

> The only thing that I easily recognize are the VT100 terminals.
> 
> Are there any PDP-11 Qbus systems?  If so, which version
> of which operating system do they run?

IIRC, the systems in the collection that have Qbus in them are:
- PDP-11/03 that is offsite and still needs to be moved there
- PDP-11/83
- VAXserver 4000/200.
- Terak
- I think I might have a VT103

The 11/03 is running RT-11.  I think the 11/83 had RT-11 on it as
well.  The VAXserver is running VMS.  The Terak runs its own OS, I
think.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From RichA at vulcan.com  Tue Dec  6 12:40:11 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 18:40:11 +0000
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
 <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com> <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E5158@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Jules Richardson
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:29 AM

> Now you've got me wondering about various old routers with console
> interfaces - can they conceivably be classed as computers and hence be
> thrown into the discussion? :-)

Are you talking about things like the early cisco Systems products?  Those
used SUN-1 boards as their processor, which was a re-purposing of a generic
workstation processor.  (A friend of mine designed the board and hired Andy
Bechtolsheim to build it. :-) Later boards like the CSC-2 and CSC-3 (another
friend of mine) were more specialized, but could have run something more
generic than IOS.

Just sayin'.


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec  6 12:52:14 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:52:14 -0700
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
Message-ID: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>

I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
to reverse engineer.  They are simple circuit boards with all the
tracings visible (i.e. no internal layers) and the parts are all 7400
series logic in standard DIP packaging.

If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
photographs of both sides of the board.  From the photographs, I would
try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
topology.

I'm wondering what kind of tools are out there that would assist in
this.  Could I process the photos to extract the topology of the
printed circuit traces?  Can I correlate this with image recognition
of the part packages and combine them to product a netlist?

I'd appreciate hearing any experiences from others that have reverse
engineered circuitry.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From sellam at vintagetech.com  Tue Dec  6 12:41:47 2011
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 10:41:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Paging Vince Briel
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1112061040310.11509@vintagetech.com>


Does anyone know how to get in touch with Vince Briel these days?  I've 
tried e-mail to no avail and his website is a closed loop.

If you are in contact with him please pass along that I'd like to speak 
with him.

Thanks!

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers   ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com  || at http://marketplace.vintage.org  ]


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 13:09:17 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 14:09:17 -0500
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>

On Dec 6, 2011, at 1:52 PM, Richard wrote:

> I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> to reverse engineer.  They are simple circuit boards with all the
> tracings visible (i.e. no internal layers) and the parts are all 7400
> series logic in standard DIP packaging.
> 
> If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
> photographs of both sides of the board.  From the photographs, I would
> try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
> topology.
> 
> I'm wondering what kind of tools are out there that would assist in
> this.  Could I process the photos to extract the topology of the
> printed circuit traces?  Can I correlate this with image recognition
> of the part packages and combine them to product a netlist?
> 
> I'd appreciate hearing any experiences from others that have reverse
> engineered circuitry.

You might ask the guys who did the Visual 6502 project:

http://visual6502.org/JSSim/

They said they made their own tools for polygon/netlist extraction in Python, so if you ask nicely, they might share (using said tools for PCBs might take some adaptation).

The process of reverse engineering a netlist from a photomicrograph of an IC is not that far from reverse engineering it from a PCB.  Where you'll run into problems is when the traces run underneath the chips (I'm assuming you're not interested in stripping the boards bare for this).

After you've got a netlist, of course, you'll have to do quite a bit of manual cleanup to make any resulting schematic (or textual netlist) human-readable, including both naming the nets and arranging them in an order that makes sense.  It's a little bit less fun than wading through a megabyte of disassembled code to make sense of an entire program; of course, I've only done the circuit reverse-engineering on paper, so it might be better in a specialized program environment.


- Dave





From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec  6 13:06:01 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 13:06:01 -0600
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl
In-Reply-To: <E1RXztD-0008KY-R6@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RWdW7-0007nt-7c@shell.xmission.com>
 <4EDD8025.8030109@compsys.to>
 <E1RXztD-0008KY-R6@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <201112061910.pB6J9vl5077619@billy.ezwind.net>

At 12:37 PM 12/6/2011, Richard wrote:
>The Terak runs its own OS, I think.

They most often ran UCSD Pascal, some ran RT-11 (RT-11/85A v3B), 
and there was a rare "Mini-Unix" for them.

- John



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 13:16:06 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:16:06 -0200
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
 <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <116468AB37C2475F9FA63A3C59383A87@tabajara>

>> I'm wondering what kind of tools are out there that would assist in
>> this.  Could I process the photos to extract the topology of the
>> printed circuit traces?  Can I correlate this with image recognition
>> of the part packages and combine them to product a netlist?

    Circad (and in some extent, Diptrace) has tools for loading an image 
into the pcb editor and recreating the tracks on top of that. If I were 
versed in programming, I'd sure write a simple tool for that. Load image, 
position the IC footprints, let it trace the tracks. This isn't hard for a 
skilled programmer. Unfortunately I live in the world of microcontrollers :( 



From barythrin at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  6 13:37:03 2011
From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 11:37:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Paging Vince Briel
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1112061040310.11509@vintagetech.com>
Message-ID: <1323200223.35363.YahooMailClassic@web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

He's fairly active on the vintage-computer.com forums, I shot him a quick message on there for ya.

Hope you're doing well,
- John

--- On Tue, 12/6/11, Sellam Ismail <sellam at vintagetech.com> wrote:

> From: Sellam Ismail <sellam at vintagetech.com>
> Subject: Paging Vince Briel
>  
> If you are in contact with him please pass along that I'd
> like to speak 
> with him.
> 
> Thanks!


From dgunix at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 13:39:09 2011
From: dgunix at gmail.com (Adam)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 21:39:09 +0200
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <4EDE589A.7010801@bitsavers.org>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <4EDE5678.3040801@bitsavers.org> <4EDE589A.7010801@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAO_Q6iw5=LC5Oujq77TqASWBUVTz-kzO30+R6xRxvKoeDPsGrQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I did find
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/alt.california/browse_thread/thread/1a174e2a776fc399/8709af3ac6bcb2f7?q=toronto+pdp-7+unix&pli=1
>
> which is a better description of the early history than Warren's

Thanks, very interesting. I am sure Warren went over her article a few
times, as he also linked it to his own site:
http://minnie.tuhs.org/TUHS/unixhist.html

Adam


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec  6 13:40:48 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 12:40:48 -0700
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
 <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RY0si-0004F3-A6@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6 at gmail.com>,
    David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> writes:

> You might ask the guys who did the Visual 6502 project:
> 
> http://visual6502.org/JSSim/

Not a bad idea.

> The process of reverse engineering a netlist from a photomicrograph
> of an IC is not that far from reverse engineering it from a PCB.  Where
> you'll run into problems is when the traces run underneath the chips (I'm
> assuming you're not i nterested in stripping the boards bare for this).

The boards are low density and have components on a single side only.
So I might be able to image traces under chips with appropriate
lighting and camera angles to show the traces.  At any rate, I didn't
expect the tools to be fully automatic, but just assisting with some
of the drudgery.

It's worth automating this task within a reasonable amount of effort
because I have probalby 15 or so boards to go over.

> After you've got a netlist, of course, you'll have to do quite a bit
> of manua l cleanup to make any resulting schematic (or textual netlist)
> human-readable, including both naming the nets and arranging them in an
> order that makes sense.

Yep, that was always assumed.  I just want to see if I can get
something basic from the images before I start incrementally improving
the schematic.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Tue Dec  6 13:44:51 2011
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 11:44:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Multiple IBM System/34 systems available in Albany, Georgia
Message-ID: <1323200691.81496.YahooMailClassic@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Some good looking, vintage systems, located in Georgia.
Contact KAY below if interested:

See photos here:
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/ibm_system34.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/5291_monitor.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/5251_monitor.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/5225_printer.jpg


Kay writes:
I have *four* IBM System/34 minicomputers from the late 1970s. 
I also have *three* 5225 Printers, monitors, instruction books.
Also 8" floppy disks to complete the sets.
Interested in selling or donating to a good cause.
Thank you,
Kay Ragan

kgragan at bellsouth.net

Flint Beverage Co., Inc.
Albany, GA







From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Tue Dec  6 14:16:39 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:16:39 +0000
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
In-Reply-To: <4EDC1419.9000800@jbrain.com>
References: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk> <m1RXIIA-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <CAH5WRh42+eanjOSry3_L+Srh1uq7EtKn73ix3D0uJkPJn2ar_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDC1419.9000800@jbrain.com>
Message-ID: <4EDE7827.1010106@philpem.me.uk>

On 05/12/11 00:45, Jim Brain wrote:
> On 12/4/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote:
>> I found
>> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ieee-488-gpib-bus-interface-cable-1m-length-53622
>>
>>
> http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-10005678-Grey+1M+IEEE-488+GPIB+Cable.html
>

Well, thanks for that guys -- I didn't realise you could get them from 
Dealextreme!

Thanks!
-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 14:56:12 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:56:12 -0500
Subject: Wanted -- cheap GPIB / HPIB / IEEE488 cables!
In-Reply-To: <4EDE7827.1010106@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4EDBC08F.70903@philpem.me.uk> <m1RXIIA-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <CAH5WRh42+eanjOSry3_L+Srh1uq7EtKn73ix3D0uJkPJn2ar_Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDC1419.9000800@jbrain.com> <4EDE7827.1010106@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <5F4C6641-16AB-4209-9480-B34B8CD6865A@gmail.com>

On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:16 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> On 05/12/11 00:45, Jim Brain wrote:
>> On 12/4/2011 2:09 PM, Gary Sparkes wrote:
>>> I found
>>> http://www.dealextreme.com/p/ieee-488-gpib-bus-interface-cable-1m-length-53622
>>> 
>>> 
>> http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-10005678-Grey+1M+IEEE-488+GPIB+Cable.html
>> 
> 
> Well, thanks for that guys -- I didn't realise you could get them from Dealextreme!

I'm continually shocked by the deals that members of this list find when Google fails to.  Like the $5 SCSI cables someone pointed me to recently on Monoprice.


- Dave




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  6 14:30:53 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:30:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGsGW_TesObN3wT1m6XtBGVdANBxorz+h7iV2tbXhwxtA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 6, 11 02:22:55 am
Message-ID: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 4 December 2011 18:54, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > As I write I am on my easy hinge from an excellent early Yule party. Mi=
> ne
> > host is a book dealer, sells a lot on Abe, & works solely from home wit=
> h no
> > shop.
> 
> Joys of predictive text entry on a keyboardless smartphone. Er, when

My 'new' (buyt still ancient) cellular teelphone has predictive texting. 
I wish I could find wome way to turn it off, it's a darn nuisance. Any 
machine that thinks it knows more than I do about what I want is 
invariably wrong...

> drunk. That was /meant/ to say "I am on my way home..." 8=AC)

I read 'hinge' as a typo for 'binge' (as in binge drinking), but I 
couldn'y make much sense of the rest.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  6 14:58:05 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 20:58:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Dec 6,
 11 11:52:14 am
Message-ID: <m1RY25d-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> to reverse engineer.  They are simple circuit boards with all the
> tracings visible (i.e. no internal layers) and the parts are all 7400
> series logic in standard DIP packaging.
> 
> If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
> photographs of both sides of the board.  From the photographs, I would
> try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
> topology.
> 
> I'm wondering what kind of tools are out there that would assist in
> this.  Could I process the photos to extract the topology of the
> printed circuit traces?  Can I correlate this with image recognition
> of the part packages and combine them to product a netlist?
> 
> I'd appreciate hearing any experiences from others that have reverse
> engineered circuitry.

I've reverse-engineered a few devices over the years. My method is 
somewhat slow, but it does work.

I don;'t use computers, CAD tools ,or anything like that. Nor do I take 
photos of the board (I really can't see the point of doing tht if you 
have the board in front of you). 

What I use is : 

Pen and Paper (lots of the latter). Draw the scheamtic freehad, don't 
waste time usign a ruler to draw thwe wires. You can always redraw ity ot 
enter it iinto  CAD system later if you really want to 

A _good_ continutiy tester. This must not be 'fooled' by diode junctiuons 
or by most resistors. A good Ohmmeter, readign down to 1 Ohm or less is 
useful for checkign that what appears to be a connection is just a 
connection and doesn't go via a 10 Ohm series trermiantion resistor

Data sheets on all the ICs, or aty least as many of them as yu can find. 
If there are custom chips, you have a lot more work to do working out 
what is going on,, but you've said this doesn't apply. You want to be 
able ot refer to several at once, I find having them on paper is the only 
way that works for me.

A good knowledtge of circuitry (yes, my old favourite the 'brain'). The 
point is that while a schematic 'just' shows the conenctions between the 
components, it is useful if it's easy to fiogure otu waht's goign on. And 
there are conventional ways to draw some circuits. A trivial example is a 
pair of NDAN gatges cross-coupled ot make an SR latch. It's easy to 
recognise if they;'re drawin one above the other with the cross 
conenctions shown. It's not hard to see if they're drawn in-lien witha 
feedabck loop. It's almsot impossible to see if the 2 gates are on 
differnt sheets with named signals linking them. This, IMHO is where a 
person does a lot better than any CAD tools

OK...

Make a list of all the 'significant compoents' on the board. Both 
'significant# and 'component' need explanation. It's probably not worth 
lisiting every last pull-up ressitor, it's certainly not worth listing 
every decoupling capacitor (it may not even be worth drawing the latter). 
WHen you come to multi-section ICs, each section si a 'comnponent'. So a 
7400 is 4 'componets' -- the 4 NAND gates. The start of such a list might 
be : 

U1 a b c d '00
U2 a b c d e F '04
U3 '138
U4 Z80A-CPU
U5 6264

Desolder anything form the board that will confuse the continuity tester. 
In particualr, switches (unless simple on/off types, in which case turn 
them off arter noting the settings if applicable), configuration wire links 
(desolder one end), low-value resistors, inductors, transformers, 
unbuffered delay lines, relays and the like. 

Now start drawing (!). Start with things you can pin down, certainly find 
the pwoer supplies (and if there are any on-board derrived lines sort 
those out now. Find the master clock oscilaltor cirucit and reset circuit 
if there are on the board.

Trace the connectiosn with the continuity tester and/or ohmmeter. It's a 
lot more accurate to do that than to try to do it visually, although 
follwign a trace will give you some idea where it goes so you have some 
idea of a set of pins to test with the continuity tester.

If you're doing an expansion board, you have a bus connector that will 
identify addres and data lines for you. If you have a large chip (like a 
microprocessor), again it will indetify signals -- but see if any are 
buffered.  

When yuou are drawing, don't be afraid to splid the circuit up into 
little blocks and anem the input and output signals -- but give them 
sensible names. That takes knoweldge of the circuit design. Often I have 
to fg oabck and rename a few signals as I get more of it worked out, or I 
leave signals un-named (but make a note of where they go) until I've 
traced out another section

As you draw out each component, cross it off the list. That way you don't 
miss anything, you don't find you're drawing the same bit twice.

The easiest boards to do are ones with large, known, ICs like 
microprocesors of complex-ish peripheral ICs because things liek address 
and data buses are known. Boards of TTL with no other knowledge are 
worse. Boards of discrete transitors with no knowledge of the design are 
even worse (I've doen all types). 

Tou govive you some idea, I find I average 5 ICs pere A4 sheet of paper 
(this is a remarkably constant value for many types of circuitry, 
obviously it fails if there's a lot of discrete transistor stuff) and 
each page takes around 1 hour to trace, draw and document. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec  6 15:24:31 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 21:24:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Tandata TD1100 printer port
Message-ID: <m1RY2V8-000J43C@p850ug1>

As I mnentioend the other night, I've added the parallel printer port to 
that TD1100 viewdata terminal. The output is a DA15 socket, and in fact 
the hardest part of adding the port was cutting the back panel of the 
unit ot allow the conenctor to come through. I had to remove the back 
panel entirely from the PCB, which invovled desoldering the line wires 
and the mains wiring....

Anyway. I then had to make a cable from the DA15 to a 36 pin Microribbon 
conenctor to conenct ot a Cnetronics-interfaced printer. As I mentioend, 
I'd gueessed as to what the signals were, so I sued those guesses for the 
initial wiring.

Connected the unit to an old Epson FX80+ and pressed the 'print' key on 
the terminal. It printed. Some garbage, some readable text. I then 
rememebred the pritner setup screen (type 'P#' at the dialer screen) and 
found it was set to 'teletext compatible' -- i.e. it would handle the 
various teletxt/viewdata controll codes and graphics. I reset it to 
'ASCII text' and tried again. This time it printed correctly -- almsot. 
It was double-spacign the lines. 

I then realsied that the pritner had previously been used with a BBC 
micro, a machine that, by default, sends only a <CR> as a newline. 
There's a DIP swithc in most old Epsons to cater for this, it foces the 
AutoFeedXT line on the inteface conenctor low. Only problem was, I didn't 
haev the printer manaul. 

Oh well, I just took it apart and traced the conenctions from the 
AutoFeedXT pin through the filter resistor to a DRIP swithc. Turnrf it 
off (so it no longer asserted the AutoFeedXT signal) and put the pritner 
together. This time it worked fine. My gueses on the printer port signals 
had probed to be correct.

In case anyoen else wants to do it, here's the wirelist (and colours) of 
the cable I made :


  1 o----D3------Or----o 5
  2 o----D6------Bu----o 8
  3 o----D7------Pu----o 9
  4 o----D0------Bk----o 2
  5 o----D4------Y-----o 6
  6 o----D5------Gn----o 7
  7 o----Err/----R/Bu--o 32
  8 o----Gnd-----Gy----o 19
  9 o----Gnd-----W-----o 30
 10 o----D1------Be----o 3
 11 o----D2------R-----o 4
 12 o----Init/---Tq----o 31
 13 o----Stb/----Pk----o 1
 14 o----Ack/----R/Y---o 10
 15 o----Busy----R/Gn--o 11

 DA15P                36 pin Microribbon

-tony




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec  6 15:58:31 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 08:58:31 +1100
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
 <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com> <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDE9007.9010200@telegraphics.com.au>

On 07/12/11 3:29 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> David Riley wrote:
>> On Dec 5, 2011, at 9:41 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
>> That's a tougher nut to crack. If you wanted, you could call a VT100
>> "Internet compatible" because you could dial up a modem with it
>> (assuming you are able to type protocols, which is something of another
>> matter). I think the presence of a working TCP/IP stack (whether it's
>> an add-on or not) is probably a more appropriate definition.
>
> I agree - but the original post seems to have mentioned "Internet
> access" rather than the use of TCP/IP, and arguing semantics while
> guessing original intent on this list is always fun ;)
>
> Now you've got me wondering about various old routers with console
> interfaces - can they conceivably be classed as computers and hence be
> thrown into the discussion? :-)

Are you thinking of BBN IMP and such?

--Toby

>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>
>
>



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 16:51:35 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:51:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112061750310.6933@duo>

On Tue, 6 Dec 2011, Richard wrote:

> I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> to reverse engineer.  They are simple circuit boards with all the
> tracings visible (i.e. no internal layers) and the parts are all 7400
> series logic in standard DIP packaging.
>
> If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
> photographs of both sides of the board.  From the photographs, I would
> try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
> topology.
>
> I'm wondering what kind of tools are out there that would assist in
> this.  Could I process the photos to extract the topology of the
> printed circuit traces?  Can I correlate this with image recognition
> of the part packages and combine them to product a netlist?

Sounds like you need the equivalent of the netlist-extractor portion of 
LVS (layout vs. schematic).


-- 



From swtpc6800 at comcast.net  Tue Dec  6 17:17:05 2011
From: swtpc6800 at comcast.net (Michael Holley)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:17:05 -0800
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <000001ccb46d$2bfc6d20$83f54760$@comcast.net>

I uploaded a 1977 price list of Apple II products from the A-Vidd
Electronics store in Long Beach, California. I used to stop by A-Vidd in the
late 1970s when I was in Los Angles visiting family. They also sold
Southwest Technical Products Corp 6800 computers.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AVIDD_Apple_price_list_1977_front.jpg

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:AVIDD_Apple_price_list_1977_back.jpg

Michael Holley
I top-post to tweak bottom-posters.

-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of David Griffith
Sent: Monday, December 05, 2011 2:07 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Old Apple price lists


Where can I find an archive of old Apple price lists, particularly from the
70s and 80s?

--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?



From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Tue Dec  6 17:32:47 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:32:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112061532160.8173@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Mon, 5 Dec 2011, Pete Plank wrote:

> On Dec 5, 2011, at 2:07 AM, David Griffith wrote:
>
>> Where can I find an archive of old Apple price lists, particularly from 
>> the 70s and 80s?
>
> No idea on an existent archive, but I have an Apple Suggested Retail 
> Price List, January 1, 1982 I can scan in if there's interest.

That would be a great start.  Please scan it.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec  6 17:38:47 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:38:47 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
Message-ID: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>

Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that 
can read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS 
documents?  The good news is that I retrieved all these files at some 
point in the past from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec  6 17:42:58 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 15:42:58 -0800
Subject: The Strange Birth and Long Life of Unix
In-Reply-To: <4EDE5678.3040801@bitsavers.org>
References: <4ed97ad2.e36a320a.20c5.5b80@mx.google.com>,
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E4B26@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
 <4EDE5678.3040801@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EDE3802.24413.8376F7@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Dec 2011 at 9:52, Al Kossow wrote:

> I was just digging through some CDC documents we just received
> concerning the joint CDC/NCR developments that happened in the early
> 70's, and was thinking how fast the pace of system change is now. The
> system they started on in 1973 was ultimately released almost 10 years
> later as the CYBER 180. By the end of the 80's they were thinking of
> porting Unix to it. I can't imagine anyone taking 10 years today to
> develop a new computer system, or thinking of writing an operating
> system and tool chain from scratch.

To be fair, you have to understand the times and the culture.  In 
1973, the dominant storage technology was still core.  Backplanes 
were still done with twisted pair and taper pins.  The Cyber 70 line 
was mostly a cosmetic rework of the old 60s 6000/7000 series.

The 170 series migrated to ECL ICs instead of discrete transistors 
and semiconductor memory.  Compared to everything that had gone 
before, it was major, even if the same old architecture (6 bit 
characters, ones' completement) and instruction set was being 
implemented.

The dual-personality Cyber 180 ws a major rework of the basic 
architecture, even if most CDC customers operated the systems in 60 
bit mode to be compatible with the old hardware.  While the 
6000/7000/Cyber 70/170 systems had a very clean simple RISC design, 
the 180 ws anything but--sort of the response to the sucker question 
"What instructions would you want for product xxx?".  For the system 
programmers, little nits such as the move to twos complement, 
hexadecimal notation and reversing the order of the bit numbering in 
a word were just icing.

The times were another factor.  Seymour Cray's going off and doing 
his thing hurt CDC's high-end sales badly.  CDC's fortunes rapidly 
declined and the 70s and 80s were marked by layoffs--one co-worker 
committed suicide when he realized that having spent his career with 
CDC, job prospects were limited at his age.

The NIH mentality of units within CDC hurt a lot.  When one of the 
Cyber 180 software architects gave a presentation of the 180's 
operating system software sometime around 1976, I was furious when 
the subject came to paging software.  He described in some detail 
what he thought the paging should be--simple demand paging.  I raised 
my hand and asked him if he'd discussed the matter any with members 
of CDC's other 64-bit virtual-memory machines already in production.

He looked at me as if I'd just informed him that he had an unknown 
twin brother.  I told him that STAR had been working with the 
technology since 1969 and that demand-paging was going to give him 
grief.  I suggested that he talk to our pager guy about working-set 
paging.  I don't think he ever did.

And finally, a lot of the talent had flown the coop.  Seymour was 
gone and had taken a bunch of key talent with him.  Jim Thornton was 
consulting and playing with a loop of coax that ran around the 
parking lots at Arden Hills.  And a lot of other talent had left to 
join the early microcomputer scene in California.

It was surprising that CDC lasted as long as it did.

BTW, in 1984, I strongly suggested to Neil Lincoln that ETA adopt 
Unix as the OS for the ETA-10.  To his credit, he agreed with me, but 
failed to convince others.  Eventually, ETA did have a Unix port done 
by an outside firm, but by then, it was too late for them.

--Chuck




From glen.slick at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 17:43:12 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:43:12 -0800
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+aUsbu=1xV7twGrEMTePWa0M98hh+ZUNq=+XPwK_TpXw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:52 AM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
> photographs of both sides of the board. ?From the photographs, I would
> try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
> topology.
>

I don't think this is exactly what you want, and you probably need to
start with a bare unpopulated printed circuit board, but Grant Stockly
has had good things to say about this service in the past:

http://www.mhtest.com/scanning.shtml

That looks to be more for recreating a circuit board than for
documenting the circuit.



From vrs at msn.com  Tue Dec  6 17:44:17 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:44:17 -0800
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP410C2D8C620219C949361F2B2BA0@phx.gbl>

From: "Richard"; Tuesday, December 06, 2011 10:52 AM
> I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> to reverse engineer.  They are simple circuit boards with all the
> tracings visible (i.e. no internal layers) and the parts are all 7400
> series logic in standard DIP packaging.
> 
> If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
> photographs of both sides of the board.  From the photographs, I would
> try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
> topology.

I've used Eagle for this -- the back-annotation feature makes things 
reasonably easy.  Assuming I have no other information about the 
board, here's what I do:

In the schematic editor, add all the components.  At each input or 
output pin, place a wire going nowhere, and add a label to identify 
the signal name.  These will start out as N$1 through N$<whatever>.

If you know the connector pin-outs, use the NAME command to 
give those signals the correct names.  Similarly, go ahead and enter 
any other information you already have,  In the Eagle board editor, 
draw some dimension lines and place the components in their 
approximate positions.

Take your (straight, flat) photographs of the top and bottom layers, 
quantize them down to two colors, rotate and scale them for, say, 
150dpi or so and the correct orientation for "from the top" view.
Save them in BMP format.

In the board editor, use import-bmp.ulp to import the bitmaps 
for the bottom layer.  You can turn on and off layers to select 
stuff and move things around until the bitmap lines up with the 
dimension lines.  Tweak the component locations, then use the 
WIRE command to trace over the traces in the image.  When 
you connect nets, Eagle will ask which name to keep, so pick 
the lowest numbered N$ name or any nice names you 
introduced earlier.

Repeat for the top layer.  If a component obscures the traces, 
you will have to measure to see where it goes.  Also, beware 
of traces that connect pairs of IC pins which lie entirely under 
the chip.  You can often detect these by the shape of the 
solder ball on top, which is often different if there is a trace 
there from when there isn't.

Use ERC when you think you are done to see if there's anything 
obvious (to Eagle, anyway) that you've missed.

Don't forget to save your work :-).

Return to the schematic editor, and "pretty it up".  A whole 
bunch of IC's with bristles sticking out of them isn't usually
the most helpful way to leave the schematic :-).

I've done this for a dual-height Qbus board and a few DEC 
flip-chips for which I had no documentation at all, and it 
isn't really very difficult.

The worst part, actually, is getting decent straight, flat images 
in as few colors as possible that accurately indicate where the 
traces are after you import them.  If the boards are small, it 
can actually be easier to skip the images and just freehand 
draw what you see.

    Vince
 


From maurice.smulders at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 17:56:04 2011
From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 16:56:04 -0700
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
Message-ID: <CALQJeen8konKFcghxbdKnVnB_eGLz0nf9O+6ZeEDBA0hQTGR+Q@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/wptoword.html

Lots of options it looks like...

OpenOffice / LibreOffice is an opensource way of doing it...

Maurice


On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 4:38 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that can
> read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS documents?  The
> good news is that I retrieved all these files at some point in the past
> from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)
>
> Zane--
>


From halarewich at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 17:57:13 2011
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 15:57:13 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>

from something I dug up

"OpenOffice Writer can read WordPerfect 5.1 documents, as can Microsoft
Word"

see

http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/reading-wordsatar-wordperfect-5-1-formatting-codes-821129/
On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that can
> read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS documents?  The
> good news is that I retrieved all these files at some point in the past
> from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)
>
> Zane
>
>
>
> --
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
> | healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
> |                                  | Photographer               |
> +-----------------------------**-----+------------------------**----+
> |                     My flickr Photostream                     |
> |          http://www.flickr.com/photos/**33848088 at N03/<http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/>          |
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec  6 17:58:43 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 15:58:43 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <4EDE3BB3.12321.91E156@cclist.sydex.com>

On 6 Dec 2011 at 15:38, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that can
> read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS documents? 
> The good news is that I retrieved all these files at some point in the
> past from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)

Don't most versions of Word have an optional filter package 
available?

--Chuck



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 18:14:11 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 19:14:11 -0500
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>

> I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> to reverse engineer.

Why "need"? Why not wait until the appropriate docs pop out of the
woodwork? ND made a fair number of those 812 minis, so there is
probably a decent chance that eventually you can use the real deal.

Of course, it is a gamble, and may take years, but the time spent
doing all the reverse engineering could perhaps be better utilized
elsewhere.

--
Will


From a50mhzham at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 18:09:35 2011
From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 18:09:35 -0600
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <4edeb04b.57c3e70a.7df2.1291@mx.google.com>

At 05:38 PM 12/6/2011, you wrote:
>Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of 
>modern software that can read Word Perfect 5.1 
>(probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS 
>documents?  The good news is that I retrieved 
>all these files at some point in the past from 
>the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)
>
>Zane

WordPerfect is still out there; believe it or not 
my company still uses it as its primary word 
processing program. Not everyone has drunk the 
microsoft kool-aid. We're moving towards 
OpenOffice; all the IT types use that but still 
have to support WP. Recent versions of 
WordPerfect can export ("SaveAs") a variety of 
formats, including RTF which should be readable 
by any given word processing program.

There are several version that cost under a hunnert bucks:
http://www.ulead.com/wordperfect/setA_wpx5.html?trkid=NASEMSPfamily
One version claims to support Microsoft Office 2007 formats, for US$99.99

As to 3.5" floppy disks, my year-old 6-core AMD 
monster machine has a drive that reads those ;-)



479 . [Philosophy] In a civilized society, it is 
the duty of all citizens to obey just laws. But 
at the same time, it is the duty of all citizens 
to disobey unjust laws. --Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, 1963
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician 
? Registered Linux User 385531


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec  6 18:17:31 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 16:17:31 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <p0624080bcb0460b845e7@[192.168.1.157]>

At 3:38 PM -0800 12/6/11, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that 
>can read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS 
>documents?  The good news is that I retrieved all these files at 
>some point in the past from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)
>
>Zane

John pointed out that modern versions of Word (such as 2007) can do 
this.  It's the Mac version of Word that can no longer read the 
documents.

Unfortunately it turns out I really need to read 4.2 doc's.  Next up 
to find one of my laptops from the early 90's, and see if I can boot 
it.

Zane





-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From neko at nekochan.net  Tue Dec  6 18:32:17 2011
From: neko at nekochan.net (Pete Plank)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 16:32:17 -0800
Subject: Old Apple price lists
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112061532160.8173@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112050206160.21547@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <7F7032C4-96FE-4DBC-AECB-F84D106B0D22@nekochan.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112061532160.8173@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <3C24BB26-D80F-4B92-94A4-D1D6918392E1@nekochan.net>


On Dec 6, 2011, at 3:32 PM, David Griffith wrote:
> That would be a great start.  Please scan it.

I've uploaded a PDF scan of the document at http://www.nekochan.net/downloads/misc/apple/Apple_SRPL_19820101.pdf

Feel free to use it as you like.

Pete Plank




From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Tue Dec  6 18:44:42 2011
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:44:42 +1300
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <59BA4D1B1DFE42DA95408D3F1EE0652D@massey.ac.nz>

My MS Word version from Office 2007 seems to support these documents.  They 
are listed on the drop down file type menu at least.

Terry Stewart (Tez)


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com>
To: <classiccmp at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 12:38 PM
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?


> Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that can 
> read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS documents?  The 
> good news is that I retrieved all these files at some point in the past 
> from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)
>
> Zane
>
>
>
> -- 
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
> | healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
> |                                  | Photographer               |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |                     My flickr Photostream                     |
> |          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |
> 




From a50mhzham at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 18:43:24 2011
From: a50mhzham at gmail.com (Tom)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 18:43:24 -0600
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>

At 05:57 PM 12/6/2011, you wrote:
>from something I dug up
>
>"OpenOffice Writer can read WordPerfect 5.1 documents, as can Microsoft
>Word"

My OpenOffice 3.3.0 doesn't explicitly say it 
will, but I think I've done it in the past, so I 
take your comment as confirming what I seem to recall.

>see
>
>http://www.linuxquestions.org/questions/linux-software-2/reading-wordsatar-wordperfect-5-1-formatting-codes-821129/
>On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Out of curiosity, what is there in the way of modern software that can
> > read Word Perfect 5.1 (probably some 5.2 as well) for DOS documents?  The
> > good news is that I retrieved all these files at some point in the past
> > from the 3.5" floppy they were on. :-)


764 . [Stupidity] Only two things are infinite, 
the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not 
sure about the former. --Albert Einstein
NEW: a50mhzham at gmail.com ? N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) ? Second Tops (Set Dancing) ? FIND ME ON FACEBOOK
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W ? Elevation 815' ? Grid Square EN53wc
LAN/Telecom Analyst ? Open-source Dude ? Musician 
? Registered Linux User 385531


From doug at blinkenlights.com  Tue Dec  6 19:43:25 2011
From: doug at blinkenlights.com (Doug Salot)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 17:43:25 -0800
Subject: House of the Rising, erhm ... TI-99/4A
Message-ID: <CAGD3MP-NAQikUWUZy5qhaR+73Lagpx7z4vrMGpse3vi5n3Wm3g@mail.gmail.com>

Not mine, but I had to post it....

http://youtu.be/w68qZ8JvBds

instruments

a. HP Scanjet 3P, Adaptec SCSI card and a computer powered by Ubuntu v9.10
OS as the Vocals. (hey, the scanner is old)
b. Atari 800XL with an EiCO Oscilloscope as the Organ
c. Texas instrument Ti-99/4A with a Tektronix Oscilloscope as the Guitar
d. Hard-drive powered by a PiC16F84A microcontroller as the bass drum and
cymbal


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec  6 20:15:11 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 18:15:11 -0800
Subject: House of the Rising, erhm ... TI-99/4A
In-Reply-To: <CAGD3MP-NAQikUWUZy5qhaR+73Lagpx7z4vrMGpse3vi5n3Wm3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAGD3MP-NAQikUWUZy5qhaR+73Lagpx7z4vrMGpse3vi5n3Wm3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080dcb047bce9f2d@[192.168.1.157]>

At 5:43 PM -0800 12/6/11, Doug Salot wrote:
>Not mine, but I had to post it....
>
>http://youtu.be/w68qZ8JvBds
>
>instruments
>
>a. HP Scanjet 3P, Adaptec SCSI card and a computer powered by Ubuntu v9.10
>OS as the Vocals. (hey, the scanner is old)
>b. Atari 800XL with an EiCO Oscilloscope as the Organ
>c. Texas instrument Ti-99/4A with a Tektronix Oscilloscope as the Guitar
>d. Hard-drive powered by a PiC16F84A microcontroller as the bass drum and
>cymbal

Okay, one question, what purpose do the O-scopes server?  Are they 
simply showing the audio signal?

It is interesting, and he is putting the TI-99/4A and Tek TDS-210 to 
better use than I am (mine are just sitting in the garage unused).

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec  6 21:16:31 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:16:31 -0700
Subject: how to: automatically combine images into a larger mosaic
Message-ID: <E1RY7zk-0001ds-1j@shell.xmission.com>

I finally found a tutorial and software to combine smaller scans of
large documents into a single mosaic of the larger sheet.

<http://hugin.sourceforge.net/tutorials/scans/en.shtml> gives a nice
tutorial of how to run hugin panorama tools to generate the mosaic.
You must change some parameters from the default and this tutorial
explains which of the many parameters you must change.

Here are some results I got from using this technique:
<http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/tmp/calcomp-schematic.png>
<http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/tmp/aesthedes-keyboard.png>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 21:41:31 2011
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 22:41:31 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>

Modern versions of WordPerfect can read 5.x files quite nicely. I
remember doing a data conversion job a couple years ago that involved
taking ancient WordPerfect files and converting them into some more
neutral format like RTF (the formatting was simple, thankfully). Word
and OpenOffice failed miseably, but a quick download of the 30 day
trial of Word Perfect X-Whatever did the trick.

Mike


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec  6 21:56:26 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 06 Dec 2011 20:56:26 -0700
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RY8cM-00062s-OK@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ at mail.gmail.com>,
    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:

> > I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> > to reverse engineer.
> 
> Why "need"? Why not wait until the appropriate docs pop out of the
> woodwork? ND made a fair number of those 812 minis, so there is
> probably a decent chance that eventually you can use the real deal.

I've been beating the bushes as best I know how and haven't turned up
anything except what's on bitsavers and the occasional "magazine
print" ad on ebay.

The "need" is to find out how the ND terminals are driven by this
system.  If I'm right, they have some sort of graphic display, which
would make this one of my earliest graphics systems in the collection.
So if it were just for teletype output, I'd be inclined to wait
around, but since there's graphics involved, I'm trying to identify
the role of the boards sooner rather than later.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 22:42:52 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 23:42:52 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>

Heck, I have a copy of WP 5.1 for dos sitting unused in a box. Perhaps
a copy of that will be easy to use for conversion? :)

On Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:41 PM, Michael Kerpan
<madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com> wrote:
> Modern versions of WordPerfect can read 5.x files quite nicely. I
> remember doing a data conversion job a couple years ago that involved
> taking ancient WordPerfect files and converting them into some more
> neutral format like RTF (the formatting was simple, thankfully). Word
> and OpenOffice failed miseably, but a quick download of the 30 day
> trial of Word Perfect X-Whatever did the trick.
>
> Mike



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec  6 23:22:40 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 21:22:40 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>

At 11:42 PM -0500 12/6/11, Gary Sparkes wrote:
>Heck, I have a copy of WP 5.1 for dos sitting unused in a box. Perhaps
>a copy of that will be easy to use for conversion? :)

If the disks are readable, I have WP 4.2, 5.1, and 5.2 for DOS.  I 
should also have a copy of WP for Windows 6.0, and WP for Mac around 
here.  I used to be big into WP before I moved to the Mac and moved 
to Word (hated WP for Mac).  The trick will be reviving a system, 
hopefully one with a version on the HD still runs.  Wasn't expecting 
4.2 data, or it to be such a pain. :-(

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From mokuba at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 00:32:19 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 01:32:19 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh6B2W1m86kcZCoKH40fTuVsxNWursSJNw+=SX_G4pCcMw@mail.gmail.com>

Well, i'll check into that once i get done rebuilding my router! :)

I'll image them and throw them online (my router, coincidentally, is the
only machine with a 3.5" floppy drive :> )

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:22 AM, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
> At 11:42 PM -0500 12/6/11, Gary Sparkes wrote:
>>
>> Heck, I have a copy of WP 5.1 for dos sitting unused in a box. Perhaps
>> a copy of that will be easy to use for conversion? :)
>
>
> If the disks are readable, I have WP 4.2, 5.1, and 5.2 for DOS.  I should
> also have a copy of WP for Windows 6.0, and WP for Mac around here.  I
used
> to be big into WP before I moved to the Mac and moved to Word (hated WP
for
> Mac).  The trick will be reviving a system, hopefully one with a version
on
> the HD still runs.  Wasn't expecting 4.2 data, or it to be such a pain.
:-(
>
>
> Zane
>
>
>
> --
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
> | healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
> |                                  | Photographer               |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |                     My flickr Photostream                     |
> |          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From dmonnens at gmail.com  Tue Dec  6 14:53:27 2011
From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens)
Date: Tue, 6 Dec 2011 13:53:27 -0700
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
Message-ID: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>

Holm,

I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
these sources to check for solutions to your problems:

http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
here or maybe here:
http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.

-Devin Monnens


> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>
>
> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems to
> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the start
> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
> Can anyone please confirm this?
>
> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
>
> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
>
> Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
>
> Holm
> --
>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>
>
-- 
Devin Monnens
www.deserthat.com

The sleep of Reason produces monsters.


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 07:39:54 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 07:39:54 -0600
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E5158@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
 <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com> <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E5158@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <4EDF6CAA.7010505@gmail.com>

Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Jules Richardson
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:29 AM
> 
>> Now you've got me wondering about various old routers with console
>> interfaces - can they conceivably be classed as computers and hence be
>> thrown into the discussion? :-)
> 
> Are you talking about things like the early cisco Systems products?

Yes, that was what immediately sprang to mind, although I'm sure there are 
others (Toby's mention of the IMPs is an interesting one).

I'm not sure what the timeline is like for the Cisco equipment though; I 
didn't really play with any of that until quite late in the game (latter 
half of the '90s).

Of course my guess is that the OP wanted a general-purpose computer running 
a non-specialised OS which came with its own TCP/IP stack built-in rather 
than as an add-on (and possibly with a suite of programs to actually make 
use of Internet connectivity), but "firsts" discussions always end up with 
a bunch of diverse answers! :-)


cheers

Jules


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 08:00:12 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 09:00:12 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:22 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> If the disks are readable, I have WP 4.2, 5.1, and 5.2 for DOS.  I 
> should also have a copy of WP for Windows 6.0, and WP for Mac around 
> here.  I used to be big into WP before I moved to the Mac and moved 
> to Word (hated WP for Mac).  The trick will be reviving a system, 
> hopefully one with a version on the HD still runs.  Wasn't expecting 
> 4.2 data, or it to be such a pain. :-(

Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.


- Dave


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 08:26:09 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 14:26:09 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG8FC60WYeT1CeofjFb=6zit4sRuGa0nue7H5cxxvv4fQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 14:00, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:22 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>> If the disks are readable, I have WP 4.2, 5.1, and 5.2 for DOS. ?I
>> should also have a copy of WP for Windows 6.0, and WP for Mac around
>> here. ?I used to be big into WP before I moved to the Mac and moved
>> to Word (hated WP for Mac). ?The trick will be reviving a system,
>> hopefully one with a version on the HD still runs. ?Wasn't expecting
>> 4.2 data, or it to be such a pain. :-(
>
> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines. ?It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.

Totally agree.

The closest you'll get, if you like the late-era MacOS experience, is
9.04 running under SheepShaver.

If you want the classic Classic, you could run 6.0.8 under Basilisk or
vMac or the like. My copy of Word 5.1 runs happily under both - but
host integration is fairly poor.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From md.benson at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 08:29:19 2011
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 14:29:19 +0000
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <4EDF6CAA.7010505@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
 <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com> <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E5158@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <4EDF6CAA.7010505@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5E8A7DF6-C263-42A8-90C2-1B9822C6541C@gmail.com>

On 7 Dec 2011, at 13:39, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:

> Of course my guess is that the OP wanted a general-purpose computer running a non-specialised OS which came with its own TCP/IP stack built-in rather than as an add-on (and possibly with a suite of programs to actually make use of Internet connectivity), but "firsts" discussions always end up with a bunch of diverse answers! :-)

If you insist on a general purpose machine with a built-in TCP/IP stack then you aren't looking at a true representation in my mind. I had been using the Internet for 2 years (on Windows 3.1) before we got a computer with a TCP/IP stack built into the OS (Windows 95) and we couldn't move our Internet machine to Win 95 until we got a working PPP/SLIP script for it.

The Amiga never did get one until OS 4.0 which came out in 2005 ish (and doesn't run on anything I'd call an Amiga unless you use the Classic PPC  version). I still have to use Miami Dx on 3.1 and 3.9. Amigas have been on the net since the year dot.

Hell, OpenVMS never has had a built-in TCP/IP stack, it's always been an optional add-on (although in 8.3 it's offered in the main install). 

Those are 3 examples I can think of, I'm sure there are more. 

My definition would be: 

- General Purpose computer
- User interactive Console
- A program or program's capable of utilising an Internet-based service be that Gopher, FTP, UseNet or WWW or anything similar.
- A TCP/ IP stack of some type connected by some means, be that a modem and PPP or SLIP or howsoever.

-- 
Mark Benson
http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 08:50:54 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 09:50:54 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG8FC60WYeT1CeofjFb=6zit4sRuGa0nue7H5cxxvv4fQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG8FC60WYeT1CeofjFb=6zit4sRuGa0nue7H5cxxvv4fQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <41ACBF43-7959-474B-A161-BA9002E65D05@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 9:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 7 December 2011 14:00, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
> 
> Totally agree.
> 
> The closest you'll get, if you like the late-era MacOS experience, is
> 9.04 running under SheepShaver.
> 
> If you want the classic Classic, you could run 6.0.8 under Basilisk or
> vMac or the like. My copy of Word 5.1 runs happily under both - but
> host integration is fairly poor.

Oh, I have plenty of perfectly functional classic Macs, too (and if you run Netatalk on a server, you can talk to everything from a brand-new machine all the way down to an SE with an Ethernet card).  The real reason I haven't used it since long before 68k emulation bit the dust is because file interchange is a huge pain.  I remember hearing something about a 5.1 plugin to save/read Word 97+ files, though...

- Dave




From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec  7 08:52:42 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 08:52:42 -0600
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>

At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.


You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
DOS in a VMware Player?

- John



From ploopster at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:06:44 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:06:44 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>

John Foust wrote:
> At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>
> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
> DOS in a VMware Player?

How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?

Peace...  Sridhar


From jon at jonworld.com  Wed Dec  7 09:08:18 2011
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:08:18 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+2HZgCF=CEHaURpiownGdyQvv4h8LTTrCTH8PsUYM3jjg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 9:52 AM, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat. ?VMware Fusion?
> DOS in a VMware Player?

Does running "strings" against the document work?

I also thought that LibreOffice supported that format, but I could be wrong.



From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec  7 09:09:00 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:09:00 -0600
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>

At 09:06 AM 12/7/2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>John Foust wrote:
>>At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>>Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>>
>>You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>>There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
>>DOS in a VMware Player?
>
>How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?


Ah, I'm sorry...  I missed the "for Mac" on that original post.

There are 680x0 emulators, right?  But no good PowerPC emulators?

- John




From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:16:55 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:16:55 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF-TxhNfPJbgteyx9jiYW0WNJDTS70aVQuuwe14Vz0qOA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 14:52, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines. ?It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>
>
> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat. ?VMware Fusion?
> DOS in a VMware Player?

Word 5.1 is a classic Mac app for 68000-based Macs.

Word for DOS came in v5.0 and v5.5 and v6.0 but I am not aware of a version 5.1.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From jon at jonworld.com  Wed Dec  7 09:17:44 2011
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:17:44 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net> <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
> How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
>
> Peace... ?Sridhar

An earlier version of OSX/x86 with Rosetta Stone? But that would run
PPC/OSX binaries, not Mac OS 9 stuff, right?



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:20:12 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:20:12 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <4edeb04b.57c3e70a.7df2.1291@mx.google.com>
 <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHsCwt1o5xLsHEeOz1_hd1ZbfT7wtP9DnbzTFEdw2c90Q@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 14:04, Nemo <cym224 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 6 December 2011 19:09, Tom <a50mhzham at gmail.com> wrote:
> [...]
>>
>> WordPerfect is still out there; believe it or not my company still uses it
>> as its primary word processing program. Not everyone has drunk the microsoft
>> kool-aid. We're moving towards OpenOffice; all the IT types use that but
>> still have to support WP. Recent versions of WordPerfect can export
>> ("SaveAs") a variety of formats, including RTF which should be readable by
>> any given word processing program.
>
> We still use WP 3.5 on PPC (which is freely available). ?We are loath
> to move to recent Macs as we would lose it or purchase Windoze
> versions). ?The "show-codes" feature has saved us a fair amount of
> grief over the years when editing large documents. ?Why do the others
> not have it? ?(Is it an IPR issue?)

You know that you can download a free trial of WordPerfect Office for Windows?

http://apps.corel.com/lp/wpo/downloads.html

You could see if that will do the job.

I used it for a while - during my 2008 experimental couple of months
of using Vista! - and it is actually a rather nice, fast, smooth
Windows wordprocessor these days. I liked it. But OpenOffice does what
I need & I can't justify the expenditure.

MS Word does not embed control codes before and after formatting, in
the manner of WordPerfect. Formatting information is at the end of the
paragraph, which is why deleting the final carriage return of a
paragraph can result in all its formatting changing. There are no
embedded codes to show, that's why it doesn't do "show codes".

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:24:50 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:24:50 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <41ACBF43-7959-474B-A161-BA9002E65D05@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG8FC60WYeT1CeofjFb=6zit4sRuGa0nue7H5cxxvv4fQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <41ACBF43-7959-474B-A161-BA9002E65D05@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEGRPnap5Fd8JSjJywM8n0ocYBebEUFu-h7p0+sjv2XHA@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 14:50, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 9:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> On 7 December 2011 14:00, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines. ?It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>>
>> Totally agree.
>>
>> The closest you'll get, if you like the late-era MacOS experience, is
>> 9.04 running under SheepShaver.
>>
>> If you want the classic Classic, you could run 6.0.8 under Basilisk or
>> vMac or the like. My copy of Word 5.1 runs happily under both - but
>> host integration is fairly poor.
>
> Oh, I have plenty of perfectly functional classic Macs, too (and if you run Netatalk on a server, you can talk to everything from a brand-new machine all the way down to an SE with an Ethernet card). ?The real reason I haven't used it since long before 68k emulation bit the dust is because file interchange is a huge pain. ?I remember hearing something about a 5.1 plugin to save/read Word 97+ files, though...

Me too, & I keep meaning to fix my Classic II, which was a lovely
little distraction-free writing machine. I am also tempted to fix up a
Beige G3 and run 9.2.2 on it - Word 5.1 runs fine on that, IIRC. I
have an old Apple portrait monitor that works on the far-newer Beige
G3s, as well. :-)

File interchange? I am fairly sure that Word for Windows includes a
Word for Mac import filter - the gotcha is that it's an optional
install. It's not there by default. But add it in and it works, IIRC.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:26:45 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:26:45 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net> <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3154798B-F4C2-4D2D-B511-7C53F42C1619@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:06 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:

> John Foust wrote:
>> At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>> 
>> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
>> DOS in a VMware Player?
> 
> How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?

Simple.  You run Linux under VMWare player, then you run PearPC under Linux, then you run Basilisk under PearPC.


- Dave




From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:31:24 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:31:24 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFMJATAS=ZZ=LdrZsWHhNuDvrai8pFRFFrp5bdHoooc-A@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 15:09, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> At 09:06 AM 12/7/2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>>John Foust wrote:
>>>At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>>>Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines. ?It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>>>
>>>You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>>>There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat. ?VMware Fusion?
>>>DOS in a VMware Player?
>>
>>How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
>
>
> Ah, I'm sorry... ?I missed the "for Mac" on that original post.
>
> There are 680x0 emulators, right? ?But no good PowerPC emulators?

I answered that bit, too. :-)

There is a PPC emulator, SheepShaver, but it's not quite up-to-date
enough to run the final versions of MacOS 9, i.e., 9.1 (last version
for NuBus machines, IIRC) or 9.2.2 (last ever version, for
NewWorld-ROM PCI Macs of G3 or above only).


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:40:26 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:40:26 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net> <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <5C455602-0124-4766-885B-BC72CA42C21B@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:09 AM, John Foust wrote:

> At 09:06 AM 12/7/2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>> John Foust wrote:
>>> At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>>> 
>>> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>>> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
>>> DOS in a VMware Player?
>> 
>> How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
> 
> 
> Ah, I'm sorry...  I missed the "for Mac" on that original post.
> 
> There are 680x0 emulators, right?  But no good PowerPC emulators?

There are plenty of both, I guess, but I'd rather have something that participated as a citizen in its native environment.  Fortunately, I have plenty of native environments for Word 5.1; I just wish it worked nicely on my newer machines.

Hm.  I wonder if it would be possible to make a VM for OS X to run old classic apps the way WINE or the JVM does (but, ideally, better than WINE does).  Probably not much of a market for it, and I don't have that much spare time anymore.


- Dave




From md.benson at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:46:17 2011
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:46:17 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF-TxhNfPJbgteyx9jiYW0WNJDTS70aVQuuwe14Vz0qOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <CAMTenCF-TxhNfPJbgteyx9jiYW0WNJDTS70aVQuuwe14Vz0qOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0BF20B86-3B7A-4571-8EE0-3BD0AC264112@gmail.com>

On 7 Dec 2011, at 15:16, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7 December 2011 14:52, John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
>> At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>> 
>> 
>> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
>> DOS in a VMware Player?
> 
> Word 5.1 is a classic Mac app for 68000-based Macs.

You could try Basilisk II. Pretty decent Mac 68k emulator last time I played with it - cant say I've used it in years though.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 09:50:30 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 10:50:30 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net> <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
>> How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
>> 
>> Peace...  Sridhar
> 
> An earlier version of OSX/x86 with Rosetta Stone? But that would run
> PPC/OSX binaries, not Mac OS 9 stuff, right?

I don't actually recall when they got rid of 68k compatibility.  My recollection is that Classic (the OS 9 environment) did away with it right out of the gate.  Classic itself was deprecated in 10.5 (and never implemented for Intel, since it was just a VM and not an emulator) and finally terminated in 10.6 (which did away with PPC native compatibility altogether, as well as the capability to read/write HFS volumes, which was quite vexing when I had to write to some floppies for older Macs).  10.7 did away with Rosetta, which seemed a bit premature to me.

By the way, Rosetta Stone is a series of language education software; Rosetta is the framework for PPC compatibility under Intel processors.  Slight difference, but I don't think any software is going to run under Rosetta Stone. :-)

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 10:03:02 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:03:02 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEGRPnap5Fd8JSjJywM8n0ocYBebEUFu-h7p0+sjv2XHA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG8FC60WYeT1CeofjFb=6zit4sRuGa0nue7H5cxxvv4fQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <41ACBF43-7959-474B-A161-BA9002E65D05@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEGRPnap5Fd8JSjJywM8n0ocYBebEUFu-h7p0+sjv2XHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <63014333-F9A6-4A3F-8E86-22A14657C03F@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:24 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> Me too, & I keep meaning to fix my Classic II, which was a lovely
> little distraction-free writing machine. I am also tempted to fix up a
> Beige G3 and run 9.2.2 on it - Word 5.1 runs fine on that, IIRC. I
> have an old Apple portrait monitor that works on the far-newer Beige
> G3s, as well. :-)

I have the SE, which also makes a lovely machine (also a nice serial terminal using ZTerm; I keep meaning to fix up MacSSH now that I have the code, but again, spare time...).  I also have several LCs, but the SE takes up a lot less space.

> File interchange? I am fairly sure that Word for Windows includes a
> Word for Mac import filter - the gotcha is that it's an optional
> install. It's not there by default. But add it in and it works, IIRC.

Well, and that's the thing; I can convert files I *receive* with no problem.  It's sending documents to other people; people with Office 2010 aren't interested in "well, this came from an old version of Word on the Mac, so can't you just install the plugin?".

Which is why I generally use TeX for documents other people don't need to edit and the loathsome Office 2008 for Mac (why would they remove the picture editing capabilities and leave it in the Windows version?  We use those a lot at work) or 2010 for Windows otherwise.

- Dave




From mokuba at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 10:03:54 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:03:54 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <3154798B-F4C2-4D2D-B511-7C53F42C1619@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <3154798B-F4C2-4D2D-B511-7C53F42C1619@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4R5qJvWfEV5kX-9kPdawKxL8uNX4OLCoZn+M3EVcFm5Q@mail.gmail.com>

But you need more layers! .....

ESXi -> Win2k3 -> VMWare Workstation -> Windows XP -> VMWare
Workstation -> Linux -> PearPC -> Basilisk......

(This is VERY similar to a setup I had to beat around with after
imaging a production server, minus the linux and plus a few more
virtualization layers and parallel VMs...)

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:26 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:06 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>
>> John Foust wrote:
>>> At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>>> Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern machines. ?It's easily the best version they ever made, and possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>>>
>>> You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>>> There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat. ?VMware Fusion?
>>> DOS in a VMware Player?
>>
>> How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
>
> Simple. ?You run Linux under VMWare player, then you run PearPC under Linux, then you run Basilisk under PearPC.
>
>
> - Dave
>
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Wed Dec  7 10:10:20 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 11:10:20 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCG8FC60WYeT1CeofjFb=6zit4sRuGa0nue7H5cxxvv4fQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <41ACBF43-7959-474B-A161-BA9002E65D05@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEGRPnap5Fd8JSjJywM8n0ocYBebEUFu-h7p0+sjv2XHA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3279FD64D5584E1CB1596AA2027EC533@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 10:24 AM
Subject: Re: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?


> Me too, & I keep meaning to fix my Classic II, which was a lovely
> little distraction-free writing machine. I am also tempted to fix up a
> Beige G3 and run 9.2.2 on it - Word 5.1 runs fine on that, IIRC. I
> have an old Apple portrait monitor that works on the far-newer Beige
> G3s, as well. :-)

I think the old word processors were made for old B&W displays. Recently got 
my hands on a SE motherboard with a Radius 030/25 CPU upgrade and a Radius 
FP display card attachment. If I ever get a spare SE and if I can find a 
cheap FP monitor I will be word processing heaven (same with DTP). Apple had 
quite a few interesting word processing apps in the 68K era.






From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  7 10:27:52 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 08:27:52 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <p06240811cb05365248df@[192.168.1.157]>

At 9:09 AM -0600 12/7/11, John Foust wrote:
>At 09:06 AM 12/7/2011, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
>>John Foust wrote:
>>>At 08:00 AM 12/7/2011, David Riley wrote:
>>>>Man, I wish I could still run Word 5.1 for Mac on modern 
>>>>machines.  It's easily the best version they ever made, and 
>>>>possibly the best word processor for the Mac.
>>>
>>>You tried running it in a DOS emulator, and it didn't work?
>>>There must be a dozen ways to skin that cat.  VMware Fusion?
>>>DOS in a VMware Player?
>>
>>How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
>
>
>Ah, I'm sorry...  I missed the "for Mac" on that original post.
>
>There are 680x0 emulators, right?  But no good PowerPC emulators?
>
>- John


I'd question the existence of *GOOD* 68k Mac emulators.  I need 
something that will run on a current Mac.  I've even gone so far as 
to research what I can run under WinXP running under Parallels 
Desktop on my Mac.

Reading Word Perfect 4.2 data files counts as a "nice to have", I can 
always scrape the raw data out of the documents.  Having access to 
ClarisDraw (reading, editing, and printing) is far more important.

Zane






-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  7 10:35:56 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 08:35:56 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CALQJeen8konKFcghxbdKnVnB_eGLz0nf9O+6ZeEDBA0hQTGR+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CALQJeen8konKFcghxbdKnVnB_eGLz0nf9O+6ZeEDBA0hQTGR+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240812cb0544cbad4d@[192.168.1.157]>

At 4:56 PM -0700 12/6/11, maurice smulders wrote:
>http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/wptoword.html
>
>Lots of options it looks like...
>
>OpenOffice / LibreOffice is an opensource way of doing it...

Wow, for everything except the 4.2 documents, this got me pointed in 
the right direction!  I've just converted all of the 5.1/5.2 doc's 
thanks to a Mac OS X tool I found there.  Drag and drop and output to 
RTF. :-)

All in all, an interesting look into my life 20+ years ago. :-)

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  7 10:46:24 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 08:46:24 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <5C455602-0124-4766-885B-BC72CA42C21B@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@[192.168.1.157]>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <201112071509.pB7F9AVi098469@billy.ezwind.net>
 <5C455602-0124-4766-885B-BC72CA42C21B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240813cb05489f930c@[192.168.1.157]>

At 10:40 AM -0500 12/7/11, David Riley wrote:
>Hm.  I wonder if it would be possible to make a VM for OS X to run 
>old classic apps the way WINE or the JVM does (but, ideally, better 
>than WINE does).  Probably not much of a market for it, and I don't 
>have that much spare time anymore.
>
>- Dave

Possible, yes.  Market, yes.  Available, no. :-(

I *REALLY* wish someone would develop and sell this!

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  7 10:51:44 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 08:51:44 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240815cb054918af36@[192.168.1.157]>

At 10:50 AM -0500 12/7/11, David Riley wrote:
>I don't actually recall when they got rid of 68k compatibility.  My 
>recollection is that Classic (the OS 9 environment) did away with it 
>right out of the gate.  Classic itself was deprecated in 10.5 (and 
>never implemented for Intel, since it was just a VM and not an 
>emulator) and finally terminated in 10.6 (which did away with PPC 
>native compatibility altogether, as well as the capability to 
>read/write HFS volumes, which was quite vexing when I had to write 
>to some floppies for older Macs).  10.7 did away with Rosetta, which 
>seemed a bit premature to me.
>
>By the way, Rosetta Stone is a series of language education 
>software; Rosetta is the framework for PPC compatibility under Intel 
>processors.  Slight difference, but I don't think any software is 
>going to run under Rosetta Stone. :-)
>
>- Dave

68k & Classic compatibility was last available in 10.4.x, which is 
why I stayed on that release as long as my dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac was 
running.  The last version with Rosetta is 10.6.x, which is why the 
Mac Pro that replaced the G5 is stuck at that version.  I like 
running Mac OS X, but I hate how every version takes away features I 
depend upon.

Zane


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec  7 11:31:16 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:31:16 -0700
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
Message-ID: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>

I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:

- it's new and on sale

- it's used and removed/reclaimed from a decomissioned data center/machine room

- it's used and sitting in the existing machine room and you come pull
  it out so they don't have to deal with it

Ideally I'd like to pick up something for free, because this is not a
high priority item for the museum.  It's more in the "nice to have"
category.  It would make it much easier to supply power to exhibits in
the middle of a large open area because I could run power and data
cabling under the floor.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 11:39:06 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:39:06 -0200
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <C3262F9823384396AB667C79193673FC@tabajara>

>I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:
> - it's new and on sale

    Is it CHEAP? :o)
 


From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 11:52:32 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 17:52:32 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFgY+_mCZ5nvU78-22RRMckQCziEi4PcOcFoLKP76yAQw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 15:50, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 10:17 AM, Jonathan Katz wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 10:06 AM, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> How does one run old Macintosh software under VMware?
>>>
>>> Peace... ?Sridhar
>>
>> An earlier version of OSX/x86 with Rosetta Stone? But that would run
>> PPC/OSX binaries, not Mac OS 9 stuff, right?
>
> I don't actually recall when they got rid of 68k compatibility. ?My recollection is that Classic (the OS 9 environment) did away with it right out of the gate.

Nope. Classic *is* MacOS 9 running in a VM, so anything MacOS 9 can
do, it can - including running MC68K code. Well, OK, not everything -
you have no real native desktop and not all drivers work, or make
sense, in a VM. But most things do.

> ?Classic itself was deprecated in 10.5

Deprecated?

TTBOMK it was not present in Leopard at all.

> By the way, Rosetta Stone is a series of language education software; Rosetta is the framework for PPC compatibility under Intel processors. ?Slight difference, but I don't think any software is going to run under Rosetta Stone. :-)

I did wonder about that!


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Dec  7 11:59:42 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:59:42 -0700
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <C3262F9823384396AB667C79193673FC@tabajara>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <C3262F9823384396AB667C79193673FC@tabajara>
Message-ID: <4EDFA98E.5070403@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/7/2011 10:39 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>> I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:
>> - it's new and on sale

> Is it CHEAP? :o)

umm cheap ... well two sticks of TNT will raise any floor.
Ben.
BTW I thought raised flooring was more for AC rather than cables.


From vintagecoder at aol.com  Wed Dec  7 12:10:25 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:10:25 +0000
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
Message-ID: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Bus and tag cables are huge. 


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 12:10:28 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:10:28 -0500
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

>
> Ideally I'd like to pick up something for free, because this is not a
> high priority item for the museum.  It's more in the "nice to have"
> category.  It would make it much easier to supply power to exhibits in
> the middle of a large open area because I could run power and data
> cabling under the floor.
>

My friend went to a design school that had a high-end 3d workstation room
(in fact, I think they were Octanes) It was simply desks spaced out with
power and network drops coming down from the unfinished ceiling. The room
was completely dark except for low power spotlights shining down on each
station (the monitors had hoods). The whole effect was really cool.

The IT guy said that dealing with overhead wiring is easier than running
everything underneath the workstations, especially if you have to shuffle
things around later on (and he had the option of doing a raised floor)  If
you need to add drops, just punch into an existing junction box and tap in
- assuming everything is wired properly.


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 12:12:27 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:12:27 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFgY+_mCZ5nvU78-22RRMckQCziEi4PcOcFoLKP76yAQw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net> <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFgY+_mCZ5nvU78-22RRMckQCziEi4PcOcFoLKP76yAQw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B1190E00-F9A0-4580-85C4-40DA95B11FC3@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Liam Proven wrote:

>> I don't actually recall when they got rid of 68k compatibility.  My recollection is that Classic (the OS 9 environment) did away with it right out of the gate.
> 
> Nope. Classic *is* MacOS 9 running in a VM, so anything MacOS 9 can
> do, it can - including running MC68K code. Well, OK, not everything -
> you have no real native desktop and not all drivers work, or make
> sense, in a VM. But most things do.

Man, my memory must be going.  I thought it was totally out; I must have imagined that.

>>  Classic itself was deprecated in 10.5
> 
> Deprecated?
> 
> TTBOMK it was not present in Leopard at all.

Maybe I'm thinking of Tiger?  I never went above 10.4 on my G4 (why bother?), so maybe I'm thinking of that; my recollection was that it wasn't wasn't easy to install unless you were upgrading.  My memory has faded on this one, too.






From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 12:16:21 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:16:21 -0500
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EDFA98E.5070403@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <C3262F9823384396AB667C79193673FC@tabajara> <4EDFA98E.5070403@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <6452FDA9-D75C-4055-A8A7-04BF3D3F7823@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:59 PM, ben wrote:

> BTW I thought raised flooring was more for AC rather than cables.

It's for everything.  Most labs I've worked in that have had raised flooring have had lots and lots of cabling running under as well as the AC; it's very useful for keeping cables out of everyone's hair.

Sometimes there are anti-static benefits as well; it's a lot easier to make raised flooring conductive than regular concrete.

In the classes I took for Cisco certification (a certification which proved to be utterly useless to me), they were constantly warning of the dangers of raised floors and dropped ceilings in re: espionage.  Apparently ninjas are a big problem in datacenters?  That was the impression they gave, anyway.


- Dave




From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Dec  7 12:26:49 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:26:49 -0700
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4EDFAFE9.1060206@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/7/2011 11:10 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:
> Bus and tag cables are huge.

The other problem with raised flooring is who's floor are you on?
With a small system, could a raised island be built, with the computing
equipment raised say a foot or so, with just false floor between the 
equipment.
Ben.




From vintagecoder at aol.com  Wed Dec  7 12:54:53 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:54:53 +0000
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
Message-ID: <924739561-1323284090-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1652979800-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>

The setups I have seen require a lot of square footage. You have printers, tape drives, and big DASD farms connecting to controllers and communications controllers and finally the mainframe which may itself be a complex consisting of more than one physical box. 

I have not seen a machine room that wasn't all raised floor. I don't know that a small setup exists with the bus and tag technology but that was years ago. The new stuff is smaller and also doesn't need raised floor. Seems like it's probably an either or situation. When you need raised floor you need a lot. When you don't, you don't.  


------Original Message------
From: ben
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
Sent: 7 Dec 2011 18:26

On 12/7/2011 11:10 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:
> Bus and tag cables are huge.

The other problem with raised flooring is who's floor are you on?
With a small system, could a raised island be built, with the computing
equipment raised say a foot or so, with just false floor between the 
equipment.
Ben.






From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 12:58:15 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 18:58:15 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <B1190E00-F9A0-4580-85C4-40DA95B11FC3@gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <CA+A6M=hgRoKVL9h2rNbvF9hv1XrOVjQUwPw4LC7d1PdNLY8Xrw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4edeb77d.ca96e70a.4306.163e@mx.google.com>
 <CAHfSdrWvfsRwS8LH2+M0qYMH_W0dGz57nC91OBiNAa3W5ZVOPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh7E5ZSwBMYzHN5b0r569w5m-NXb77WJO3=pmOGL0JX0Wg@mail.gmail.com>
 <p0624080fcb04a809fc9b@192.168.1.157>
 <119C094F-C8C7-42C6-B9FD-1115CCE9B50D@gmail.com>
 <201112071453.pB7ErcUO097895@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EDF8104.2000106@gmail.com>
 <CAEOZr+0-nFgTJ9pvdDrRDJJ6UT-yux66UptSmtrP0vQQuwqysQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <B707C8EB-C4C4-40FE-9FE9-D021BAA8AF2B@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFgY+_mCZ5nvU78-22RRMckQCziEi4PcOcFoLKP76yAQw@mail.gmail.com>
 <B1190E00-F9A0-4580-85C4-40DA95B11FC3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGggfkB6nAh=iazRG+oNQbRV9hDxaquOka8e8b1HdsRJw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 18:12, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>>> I don't actually recall when they got rid of 68k compatibility. ?My recollection is that Classic (the OS 9 environment) did away with it right out of the gate.
>>
>> Nope. Classic *is* MacOS 9 running in a VM, so anything MacOS 9 can
>> do, it can - including running MC68K code. Well, OK, not everything -
>> you have no real native desktop and not all drivers work, or make
>> sense, in a VM. But most things do.
>
> Man, my memory must be going. ?I thought it was totally out; I must have imagined that.

:-)

>>> ?Classic itself was deprecated in 10.5
>>
>> Deprecated?
>>
>> TTBOMK it was not present in Leopard at all.
>
> Maybe I'm thinking of Tiger? ?I never went above 10.4 on my G4 (why bother?), so maybe I'm thinking of that; my recollection was that it wasn't wasn't easy to install unless you were upgrading. ?My memory has faded on this one, too.

Tiger has Classic, yes. Optional install, I think, too, but once
installed works just like any previous version.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec  7 13:38:02 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:38:02 -0800
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4EDFC09A.304@brouhaha.com>

Vintage Coder wrote:
 > Bus and tag cables are huge.

Well, compared to a modern USB cable, certainly, but they aren't 
particularly big in absolute terms.  The cable diameter is less 2cm.  
Certainly nothing that necessitates raised floor.

Eric



From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec  7 13:41:13 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:41:13 -0800
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
Message-ID: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>

Does anyone have the "Unibug" ROM that was supplied with the TI 
TM990/189 University Board?  This was an educational and evaluation 
board for the TMS9980 microprocessor, an 8-bit-bus version of the TMS9900.

It's not hard to find images of the "University BASIC" ROMs on the net.  
Those ROMs replaced the Unibug ROM.

Thanks,
Eric



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec  7 13:47:28 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:47:28 -0800
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>,
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>

On 7 Dec 2011 at 13:10, Jason McBrien wrote:

> The IT guy said that dealing with overhead wiring is easier than
> running everything underneath the workstations, especially if you have
> to shuffle things around later on (and he had the option of doing a
> raised floor)  If you need to add drops, just punch into an existing
> junction box and tap in - assuming everything is wired properly.

Brings a shudder to me after many years.

Raised flooring = rats, mice and roaches and all manner of 
unspeakable stuff gunking things up, particularly spilled soft drinks 
and coffee.

Dropped ceiling = spiders, incredible amounts of dust, and the 
fiberglass insulation that filters down from the roof insulation.  
Itchy, itchy, itchy.

--Chuck





From vintagecoder at aol.com  Wed Dec  7 13:58:39 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 19:58:39 +0000
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 , <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1945322042-1323287916-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1524949962-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>

That's interesting. I read stuff like that but didn't hear it first hand. We had an operator at one place I worked who had a gourmet streak, he would keep a bottle of wine and some expensive cheese under a panel near his seat. At another place the ops manager used to keep a couple of six packs handy. The places I saw were all spotlessly clean. I guess that helped with the pest issues!

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 11:47:28 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: wanted: raised flooring for cheap

On 7 Dec 2011 at 13:10, Jason McBrien wrote:

> The IT guy said that dealing with overhead wiring is easier than
> running everything underneath the workstations, especially if you have
> to shuffle things around later on (and he had the option of doing a
> raised floor)  If you need to add drops, just punch into an existing
> junction box and tap in - assuming everything is wired properly.

Brings a shudder to me after many years.

Raised flooring = rats, mice and roaches and all manner of 
unspeakable stuff gunking things up, particularly spilled soft drinks 
and coffee.

Dropped ceiling = spiders, incredible amounts of dust, and the 
fiberglass insulation that filters down from the roof insulation.  
Itchy, itchy, itchy.

--Chuck






From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 14:02:18 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:02:18 -0500
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>,
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <2EB708EC-9FBB-464C-9D95-691B7C8A1661@gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011, at 2:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Brings a shudder to me after many years.
> 
> Raised flooring = rats, mice and roaches and all manner of 
> unspeakable stuff gunking things up, particularly spilled soft drinks 
> and coffee.
> 
> Dropped ceiling = spiders, incredible amounts of dust, and the 
> fiberglass insulation that filters down from the roof insulation.  
> Itchy, itchy, itchy.

That's why all my cables are safely strung between eye and neck height straight across the work area.  I've found it's also a strong deterrent for people who want to mess with my stuff. :-)

- Dave




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 14:08:11 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:08:11 -0500
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
> Brings a shudder to me after many years.
>
> Raised flooring = rats, mice and roaches and all manner of
> unspeakable stuff gunking things up, particularly spilled soft drinks
> and coffee.
>
> Dropped ceiling = spiders, incredible amounts of dust, and the
> fiberglass insulation that filters down from the roof insulation.
> Itchy, itchy, itchy.

You must have worked in special places.

My first personal experience crawling around a raised floor
installation was in a 500 sq ft mixed DEC and IBM machine room - a
couple of VAX-11/750s, a few PDP-11s, and an IBM 4331.  There was lots
of dust under the floor, but no goo and no vermin.  I know how dirty
it was because I (and the company owner) moved 100% of the equipment
when we changed buildings ten years later.  We built the new machine
room in the open in air-conditioned space in a 3000 sq ft warehouse -
I set the posts and built the skirt myself.  I even recovered all the
floor parts when the company closed some years later - they are
stacked in my quonset hut waiting for me to build the new building
next door.

Even the massive data centers I worked in at Lucent weren't nasty
under the floor - just dusty.

As for overhead wiring - I've only had that at places that were built
to an open plan - so lots of overhead wire management, but no dust or
spiders or insulation raining down on us, just cascades of cables.

So where have you worked that was so dirty and infested?

-ethan


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec  7 14:29:35 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 13:29:35 -0700
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>


A dozen messgaes so far and NONE of them answer the question of where
I can get me some.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec  7 14:30:38 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:30:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <B1190E00-F9A0-4580-85C4-40DA95B11FC3@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 7, 11 01:12:27 pm"
Message-ID: <201112072030.pB7KUc9Y010228@floodgap.com>

> Maybe I'm thinking of Tiger?  I never went above 10.4 on my G4 (why
> bother?), so maybe I'm thinking of that; my recollection was that it
> wasn't easy to install unless you were upgrading.  My memory has faded on
> this one, too.

Tiger was a curious dichotomy. Apple's retail boxed Tiger does not come
with the Classic support tools (at least not my boxed 10.4.6, which will
boot any Power Mac capable of 10.4), but the OS maintained support, and you
could install the Classic support files and a System Folder off any machine
restore disc set. When I installed 10.4.11 on my Luxo G4, I used the boxed
10.4.6 and the Combo update to 10.4.11, and then installed Classic from my
iBook G4's system restore discs.

In 10.5, there is no Classic. And SheepShaver, as impressive a hack as it is,
is no substitute for Classic. Many apps don't run and the VM has a tendency
to hang up randomly. I still have some Classic apps I use, so I'm Tiger
forever on my G5.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Success can eliminate as many options as failure. -- Tom Robbins -----------


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 14:46:17 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:46:17 -0800
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJJu_41iTWjdJhxi6MFNRkm0i_qysAE-R_BZBt1+Heq8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011 12:33 PM, "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>
> A dozen messgaes so far and NONE of them answer the question of where
> I can get me some.

What do you expect? This list is apparently for talking about anything and
everything except the original post.


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec  7 14:48:25 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 12:48:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: The (non)state of Mac emulation was Re: Word Perfect 5.1 documents?
In-Reply-To: <p06240811cb05365248df@[192.168.1.157]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 "Dec 7, 11 08:27:52 am"
Message-ID: <201112072048.pB7KmPbq012332@floodgap.com>

> I'd question the existence of *GOOD* 68k Mac emulators.

Mini vMac is coming along pretty well. They're starting to move to colour
support, such as the Mac IIx, and it runs on everything from Mac OS 9 (!)
to Windows 7, and, natch, Lion.

I prefer it to Basilisk, personally. It should run Word 5.1 very nicely.

I've never had good luck with SheepShaver, though. There is no good way
to run Classic Power Mac apps in anything but Classic.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: The James Bond Theme from "Dr. No" -----------------


From pontus at update.uu.se  Wed Dec  7 14:57:54 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 21:57:54 +0100
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EDFD352.6010406@update.uu.se>

On 12/07/2011 09:29 PM, Richard wrote:
> A dozen messgaes so far and NONE of them answer the question of where
> I can get me some.

I have found it once or twice on the Swedish version of craigslist. The 
trick is to know what they call it. Some use the term "installation 
floor" or "double floor" (perhaps that is just Sweden though)

And I have a story about dirty floors as well: In the computer club 
server room we had a grey water sewage pipe brake and fill the area 
under the floor. After cleaning a big load of cables and after some pros 
cleaned up the smelly mess we could use the room again. I'm glad we had 
the raised floor, imagine the damage to the Vax and PDP's.

/P


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 15:00:57 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:00:57 -0800
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
In-Reply-To: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+MWq4dTmfCmYPK64JJ0V_+5cONMQK8qp6OS9C5W7xOpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 7, 2011 11:46 AM, "Eric Smith" <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
>
> Does anyone have the "Unibug" ROM that was supplied with the TI TM990/189
University Board?  This was an educational and evaluation board for the
TMS9980 microprocessor, an 8-bit-bus version of the TMS9900.
>

I have a 990/189 with a single TMS4732 4KB ROM installed. Is there an
obvious way to know if that's the one you want? I could probably dump it's
contents without too much trouble.


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 15:08:26 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:08:26 -0500
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+deov0a=O-V7JbLd8zctePwvY7GBTKibM=S4dWTpudRokA@mail.gmail.com>

> A dozen messgaes so far and NONE of them answer the question of where
> I can get me some.

Government surplus is the best place to find it cheap, but typically
the risers are not included. Not a huge deal, as they can be
fabricated.

--
Will


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec  7 14:47:38 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 20:47:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com> from
 "William Donzelli" at Dec 6, 11 07:14:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> > I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> > to reverse engineer.
> 
> Why "need"? Why not wait until the appropriate docs pop out of the
> woodwork? ND made a fair number of those 812 minis, so there is
> probably a decent chance that eventually you can use the real deal.

Do you have these schematics, or know somebody who does? Do you _know_ 
they'restill around? If not, then your comments are (as usual) useless.

> 
> Of course, it is a gamble, and may take years, but the time spent
> doing all the reverse engineering could perhaps be better utilized
> elsewhere.

It's a hobby (I assume), in which case you can't justify the use of 
time.  I know that if I was in this postion, I'd start tracing out the 
schematics, since then I was doing _something_, and I know of no beter 
way to get the scheamtic burned into your mind than to trace it out by 
hand. You will spot all sorts of things doing that. 

> 
> --
> Will

When was the last time you actualyl posted soemthign useful to this list?

-tony


From IanK at vulcan.com  Wed Dec  7 15:24:15 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 21:24:15 +0000
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <6452FDA9-D75C-4055-A8A7-04BF3D3F7823@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB051914.9924%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/7/11 10:16 AM, "David Riley" <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:

>On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:59 PM, ben wrote:
>
>> BTW I thought raised flooring was more for AC rather than cables.
>
>It's for everything.  Most labs I've worked in that have had raised
>flooring have had lots and lots of cabling running under as well as the
>AC; it's very useful for keeping cables out of everyone's hair.
>
>Sometimes there are anti-static benefits as well; it's a lot easier to
>make raised flooring conductive than regular concrete.
>
>In the classes I took for Cisco certification (a certification which
>proved to be utterly useless to me), they were constantly warning of the
>dangers of raised floors and dropped ceilings in re: espionage.
>Apparently ninjas are a big problem in datacenters?  That was the
>impression they gave, anyway.
>

There's not a lot of clearance under there, at least not in our machine
room.  Are those ninja turtles?  (I couldn't resist.)  -- Ian 




From halarewich at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 15:39:51 2011
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 13:39:51 -0800
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <CB051914.9924%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <6452FDA9-D75C-4055-A8A7-04BF3D3F7823@gmail.com>
 <CB051914.9924%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg@mail.gmail.com>

heres one from ebay you prob already saw but anyway
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-Room-Woodcore-Floating-Raised-Flooring-System-/300556829438?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fa9542fe

242 non vented/19vented tiles 24"x24"each tile 69 agle peces and all
floorstands/brackets



On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Ian King <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:

>  On 12/7/11 10:16 AM, "David Riley" <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Dec 7, 2011, at 12:59 PM, ben wrote:
> >
> >> BTW I thought raised flooring was more for AC rather than cables.
> >
> >It's for everything.  Most labs I've worked in that have had raised
> >flooring have had lots and lots of cabling running under as well as the
> >AC; it's very useful for keeping cables out of everyone's hair.
> >
> >Sometimes there are anti-static benefits as well; it's a lot easier to
> >make raised flooring conductive than regular concrete.
> >
> >In the classes I took for Cisco certification (a certification which
> >proved to be utterly useless to me), they were constantly warning of the
> >dangers of raised floors and dropped ceilings in re: espionage.
> >Apparently ninjas are a big problem in datacenters?  That was the
> >impression they gave, anyway.
> >
>
> There's not a lot of clearance under there, at least not in our machine
> room.  Are those ninja turtles?  (I couldn't resist.)  -- Ian
>
>
>


From RichA at vulcan.com  Wed Dec  7 15:44:07 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 21:44:07 +0000
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E6542@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Richard
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 9:31 AM

> I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:

OK, I know one is "non-existent".  What are the other two?


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/




From RichA at vulcan.com  Wed Dec  7 15:44:27 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 21:44:27 +0000
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <2029171040-1323281422-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1037352933-@b27.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E6564@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Vintage Coder
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 10:10 AM

> Bus and tag cables are huge.

As are Massbi.  Original version 1", FCC-rated shielded version upwards
of 1.25".

Sure, it's all relative, but those cables are a trip hazard lying on the
floor, and the entries into the big machines are all at floor level or
internal at the bottoms of the cabinets.  Besides, who wants several hundred
pounds of cable hanging above them???


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 15:50:55 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 16:50:55 -0500
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E6542@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E6542@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkj1A2B748b1+_kF8SY3Jg2M+vYiFk9qaSTh4V2ffYCLw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 4:44 PM, Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> wrote:
> From: Richard
> Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2011 9:31 AM
>
>> I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:
>
> OK, I know one is "non-existent". ?What are the other two?

Collapsed and Non-load-bearing?

-ethan



From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec  7 16:08:34 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:08:34 -0700
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <6452FDA9-D75C-4055-A8A7-04BF3D3F7823@gmail.com>
 <CB051914.9924%iank@vulcan.com>
 <CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RYPfG-0005p8-VN@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg at mail.gmail.com>,
    Chris Halarewich <halarewich at gmail.com> writes:

> heres one from ebay you prob already saw but anyway
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-Room-Woodcore-Floating-Raised-Flooring-Syste
m-/300556829438?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fa9542fe
> 
> 242 non vented/19vented tiles 24"x24"each tile 69 agle peces and all
> floorstands/brackets

$5K?  Is that cheap?

There are SO many more important things I could do with $5K on the
museum.  If that isn't a crazy price, then I'll just put this in the
"get it if it's free" category of search.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From barythrin at yahoo.com  Wed Dec  7 16:22:32 2011
From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 14:22:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <1323296552.98908.YahooMailClassic@web161204.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I've worked in both environments with raised floors vs ceiling ventilation/cabling.  Either are fine it just depends what your real purpose is.  From what I recall most of the raised floor environments I've been in were specifically for cooling mainframes and other server equipment, cabling happened to end up going there but that wasn't the purpose behind it.  Plus you have to have to then be wary of your weight and distribution of systems with a raised floor which sorta kills the fun after a while.  New systems need new bolts and mounts under them etc.

The biggest pain was long power drops which were zigzagging between posts under the floor here from various previous moves that were "just enough" to get it where they needed next.  Finally it took a long time pulling those out and rerunning them properly, let alone finding some with frayed wire exposed.  Not a comforting experience after roughly handling them prior to that.

Ceiling runs you end up with the same stuff after years of poor management.  Cables thrown over and under certain other devices (lights, vents, mounts) that after a while are difficult to track what is where or work around it properly.  The worst story I have is at a leased office we had which had a very large scorpion problem (they warned us every time we came there).  You couldn't imagine the number of doughnut boxes and coffee cans they had full of their bodies in the break room (I guess they kept them out of boredom and as a complaint).  Working anywhere in that building was unnerving but a coworker and I had to do a cable drop to the reception area.  We're slowly pulling ceiling panels away, checking around a bit (my thinking was picturing some hive of the stupid things just waiting to be pissed off and found).  We ran the cable but as my coworker was getting off the ladder he thought he felt something on his back (of course we spent most of our
 time there feeling like that).  Either way, he threw his shirt off on the ground and was freaking out a bit when I found him but I didn't see anything.  Mostly was just something we laughed about afterwards.

So anyway, the discussion might be seemingly off topic but I think the point was debating if one was a better design than the other.  Especially when cost is a concern.

As far as finding the materials all I can think of are freecycle, craigslist free section, or habitat for humanity type stores if you're really set on doing all that work.


From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec  7 15:32:11 2011
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 21:32:11 -0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:30 PM
Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne

> My 'new' (buyt still ancient) cellular teelphone has predictive texting.
> I wish I could find wome way to turn it off, it's a darn nuisance. Any
> machine that thinks it knows more than I do about what I want is
> invariably wrong...
>
> -tony


Most mobile phones (atleast the ones I have seen) have 2 options -
predictive text (T9 mode on my 8 year old mobile phone) and ABC mode. There
should be a way to switch it to ABC mode, though some mobiles have
predictive text on as default (so you have to turn it off every time you
need to text).
I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes predictive text.


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk




From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Dec  7 16:46:58 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:46:58 -0800
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
In-Reply-To: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EDFECE2.9080000@jwsss.com>

I have a 9900 eval board a friend did himself, I'll take a look at it.  
I would probably have to get it to you, as I don't have copying capability.
Jim



On 12/7/2011 11:41 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Does anyone have the "Unibug" ROM that was supplied with the TI 
> TM990/189 University Board?  This was an educational and evaluation 
> board for the TMS9980 microprocessor, an 8-bit-bus version of the 
> TMS9900.
>
> It's not hard to find images of the "University BASIC" ROMs on the 
> net.  Those ROMs replaced the Unibug ROM.
>
> Thanks,
> Eric
>
>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec  7 16:56:29 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:56:29 -0800
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+MWq4dTmfCmYPK64JJ0V_+5cONMQK8qp6OS9C5W7xOpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
 <CAM2UOw+MWq4dTmfCmYPK64JJ0V_+5cONMQK8qp6OS9C5W7xOpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDFEF1D.2080904@brouhaha.com>

On 12/07/2011 01:00 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
 > I have a 990/189 with a single TMS4732 4KB ROM installed. Is there an
 > obvious way to know if that's the one you want? I could probably dump 
it's
 > contents without too much trouble.

If it displays "CPU READY" after power-up, it's the right one.

In addition to the image, it would be useful to know what the markings 
on the chip are, or to have a photo in which they can be seen.

If you have the optional serial port on the board, you could dump the 
ROM over the serial port without removing it from the board.

Thanks!
Eric




From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec  7 17:00:38 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:00:38 -0800
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAHG8iGVXiuCvn8djRRZMgacR194dHiL0cWEQx9+7VgpitAK9Eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RYO7T-0004lV-Ex@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EDFF016.4020904@brouhaha.com>

Richard wrote:
 > A dozen messgaes so far and NONE of them answer the question of where
 > I can get me some.

That's because there *isn't* a cheap source of it.

The people that deal in it get paid to remove it from one site, and then 
they get paid to install it in another.

A company I worked for a decade ago signed a lease on a new building.  
When us employees got our first tour, another company was there tearing 
out the raised floor.  Our company paid a lot of money to tear it out.  
I asked whether I could get any of it, and the answer was that I could 
buy it if I had a large amount of money to spend.

I was very disappointed because the management at the company I worked 
for knew that I was into old computers, and had they asked me, I would 
have removed it at no charge.



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec  7 17:10:01 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:10:01 -0800
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>,
 <4EDF5250.7854.A6F025@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <CAALmim=wN2X__6M_HOMouxOdThVG5cR5EdpGUgnN1dB=Jx+BSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EDF81C9.4544.1605F27@cclist.sydex.com>

On 7 Dec 2011 at 15:08, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> So where have you worked that was so dirty and infested?

In facility that was very close to a large body of water, drainage 
ditches and located in the middle of an onion field.  In the autumn 
crickets would invade by the thousands--they would be everywhere, not 
just under the raising flooring; or in hallways; in desk drawers; in 
that cup of coffee you left on your desk.

Of course, nothing compared to the sumps in a steel mill, but still 
not the prisitine environment one thinks of in connection with 
computers.

I wonder if installations along the Gulf Coast suffer the same 
problem.  I remember when the company put me up in some very fancy 
digs in the middle of San Antonio.  As the bellman  was carting my 
luggage to my room, strolling beside us in the hallway was a very 
large palmetto bug.  The guy showing me to my room just shrugged and 
said "we get them everywhere".

--Chuck



From pontus at update.uu.se  Wed Dec  7 17:13:12 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 00:13:12 +0100
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYPfG-0005p8-VN@shell.xmission.com>
References: <6452FDA9-D75C-4055-A8A7-04BF3D3F7823@gmail.com>
 <CB051914.9924%iank@vulcan.com>
 <CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RYPfG-0005p8-VN@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EDFF308.4080102@update.uu.se>

On 12/07/2011 11:08 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg at mail.gmail.com>,
>      Chris Halarewich<halarewich at gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> heres one from ebay you prob already saw but anyway
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-Room-Woodcore-Floating-Raised-Flooring-Syste
> m-/300556829438?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45fa9542fe
>> 242 non vented/19vented tiles 24"x24"each tile 69 agle peces and all
>> floorstands/brackets
> $5K?  Is that cheap?
>
> There are SO many more important things I could do with $5K on the
> museum.  If that isn't a crazy price, then I'll just put this in the
> "get it if it's free" category of search.

Looks to be in great condition. I wonder what they cost new. (I'm also 
in the market)

/P


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  7 17:13:09 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (healyzh at aracnet.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:13:09 -0800
Subject: The (non)state of Mac emulation was Re: Word Perfect 5.1
 documents?
In-Reply-To: <201112072048.pB7KmPbq012332@floodgap.com>
References: <201112072048.pB7KmPbq012332@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4937aba2843563f375b9548cede4cbda.squirrel@_>

>> I'd question the existence of *GOOD* 68k Mac emulators.
>
> Mini vMac is coming along pretty well. They're starting to move to colour
> support, such as the Mac IIx, and it runs on everything from Mac OS 9 (!)
> to Windows 7, and, natch, Lion.
>
> I prefer it to Basilisk, personally. It should run Word 5.1 very nicely.
>
> I've never had good luck with SheepShaver, though. There is no good way
> to run Classic Power Mac apps in anything but Classic.

I should be able to get away with no PPC support, the main apps I need to
run are all 68k.  What I do need is colour support.  I had SheepShaver
running about 4 years ago on my G5, but at the time I didn't *need* it, as
the main App I need ran under classic.  BTW, not having the ability to run
System 8 will actually be a plus, as I have some software I wrote that
prefers System 7.

While moving to Lion will cost me two apps, I can replace those.  I've not
done that as it will cost both time and money.

Zane





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec  7 17:43:00 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 15:43:00 -0800 (PST)
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimkj1A2B748b1+_kF8SY3Jg2M+vYiFk9qaSTh4V2ffYCLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E6542@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <CAALmimkj1A2B748b1+_kF8SY3Jg2M+vYiFk9qaSTh4V2ffYCLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111207154241.X69084@shell.lmi.net>

> >> I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:
> >
> > OK, I know one is "non-existent". ?What are the other two?
>
> Collapsed and Non-load-bearing?

dirty and underwater






From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Dec  7 18:02:31 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:02:31 -0800
Subject: The (non)state of Mac emulation was Re: Word Perfect 5.1
 documents?
In-Reply-To: <4937aba2843563f375b9548cede4cbda.squirrel@_>
References: <201112072048.pB7KmPbq012332@floodgap.com>
 <4937aba2843563f375b9548cede4cbda.squirrel@_>
Message-ID: <4EDFFE97.9080809@bitsavers.org>

On 12/7/11 3:13 PM, healyzh at aracnet.com wrote:
>>> I'd question the existence of *GOOD* 68k Mac emulators.
>>

MESS is currently the most accurate.



From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 18:32:16 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:32:16 -0600
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EE00590.5060809@gmail.com>

Richard wrote:
> I figure there are three classes of "cheap" for raised flooring systems:
> 
> - it's new and on sale
> 
> - it's used and removed/reclaimed from a decomissioned data center/machine room
> 
> - it's used and sitting in the existing machine room and you come pull
>   it out so they don't have to deal with it

I tried this a few years back when I was involved with NMoC; the conclusion 
was that it's really expensive to buy the parts new, decommissioned floors 
just sitting conveniently in storage free for the taking don't exist, and 
folk wanting someone to come and pull out their existing floor don't exist, 
either :-(

(I suspect it's a rare event for such a floor to be torn up, and if/when it 
does happen it's part of other refurbishment work or demolishing of a 
building by a single contractor, so it's all just ripped to pieces - with 
any metal parts potentially sent for scrap value)

> Ideally I'd like to pick up something for free, because this is not a
> high priority item for the museum.  It's more in the "nice to have"
> category.  It would make it much easier to supply power to exhibits in
> the middle of a large open area because I could run power and data
> cabling under the floor.

Are you in rented space? Do you foresee the larger/heavier exhibits moving 
around much, or will they pretty much always occupy the same spot?

cheers

Jules


From mikelee at tdh.com  Wed Dec  7 18:34:56 2011
From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 18:34:56 -0600
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EDFF308.4080102@update.uu.se>
References: <6452FDA9-D75C-4055-A8A7-04BF3D3F7823@gmail.com>
 <CB051914.9924%iank@vulcan.com>
 <CA+A6M=ib+6mP3zdb+sDuZ5kVw_Rd4wxOdAXxZwADY1_zuPO4Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RYPfG-0005p8-VN@shell.xmission.com> <4EDFF308.4080102@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <4EE00630.4060405@tdh.com>

On 12/7/2011 5:13 PM, Pontus wrote:
> Looks to be in great condition. I wonder what they cost new. (I'm also 
> in the market)


Several years back, my employer at the time was moving out of a leased 
building, which was slated for gutting.  However, the lease agreement 
was to replace any cut/damaged data center raised floor tiles, which 
amounted to about 150-200 floor tiles to be replaced.  I don't know the 
exact cost per tile was, but the estimate is somewhere around the 
$250-350 each for a total cost of $50,000+.  A year after the company 
moved out, the floor was ripped out by the building owners to make room 
for new tenants who wanted the space for offices and from what I can 
tell, most of the flooring was disposed of in aluminum/metal scrap 
dumpsters.

So my estimated new per tile cost of good quality data center raised 
flooring is somewhere around $250-350 without any of the additional 
mounting hardware.


From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Wed Dec  7 19:01:54 2011
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 19:01:54 -0600
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
In-Reply-To: <4EDFEF1D.2080904@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>,
 <CAM2UOw+MWq4dTmfCmYPK64JJ0V_+5cONMQK8qp6OS9C5W7xOpA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EDFEF1D.2080904@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <BLU145-W273570C8A0CF0A0E04D950BAB80@phx.gbl>




> Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 14:56:29 -0800
> From: eric at brouhaha.com
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
> 
> On 12/07/2011 01:00 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
>  > I have a 990/189 with a single TMS4732 4KB ROM installed. Is there an
>  > obvious way to know if that's the one you want? I could probably dump 
> it's
>  > contents without too much trouble.
> 
> If it displays "CPU READY" after power-up, it's the right one.
> 
> In addition to the image, it would be useful to know what the markings 
> on the chip are, or to have a photo in which they can be seen.
> 
> If you have the optional serial port on the board, you could dump the 
> ROM over the serial port without removing it from the board.
> 
> Thanks!
> Eric
> 
> 

Another fun thing you can add to this kit (if you can find it) is the Erying Research color graphics board. its the same graphics chip in the 99/4

The TI manual set was great, huge binder and it was a very good course on microprocessors, I really enjoyed mine!

Randy
 		 	   		  

From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 19:14:35 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 01:14:35 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>

On 7 December 2011 21:32, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 06, 2011 8:30 PM
> Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
>
>> My 'new' (buyt still ancient) cellular teelphone has predictive texting.
>> I wish I could find wome way to turn it off, it's a darn nuisance. Any
>> machine that thinks it knows more than I do about what I want is
>> invariably wrong...
>>
>> -tony
>
>
> Most mobile phones (atleast the ones I have seen) have 2 options -
> predictive text (T9 mode on my 8 year old mobile phone) and ABC mode. There
> should be a way to switch it to ABC mode, though some mobiles have
> predictive text on as default (so you have to turn it off every time you
> need to text).
> I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes predictive text.

[Waves] Hi!

It's fine once you get used to it. It really does use fewer keystrokes
- quite a lot fewer.

It's great if you learn how to use it /if/ you are a relatively light
to moderate texter. Heavy users who want the absolute maximum speed,
however, seem to favour non-predictive entry, as it is deterministic,
so you don't need to wait and see what emerges. Predictive text is
interactive: you press the keys, just once each, for each letter, then
you step through the offered words, pick the one you want and move on
- or teach the phone the new word. This means that the list of
offerings changes over time, and that means it's non-deterministic.
Some phones put the new words on the end of the list, some on the
beginning, but either way, it will be a different number of choices to
loop through the list.

I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
/vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com  Wed Dec  7 19:54:59 2011
From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman)
Date: Wed, 07 Dec 2011 19:54:59 -0600
Subject: Velleman PCS64i O-scope Software?
Message-ID: <4EE018F3.3090503@brutman.com>


I'm going to plunge into the world of slightly more advanced 
electronics, and one of my teaching tools is a Velleman PCS64i that I 
just inherited.  It's an o-scope front end that interfaces to a PC to 
provide the display.

I'm looking for the DOS software - it is not available on Velleman's web 
site any more.  I found the Windows software, but I'd rather keep it 
simple for now.  If you have the DOS software please let me know ..


Thanks,
Mike



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec  7 19:55:30 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 17:55:30 -0800
Subject: The (non)state of Mac emulation was Re: Word Perfect 5.1 
 documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EDFFE97.9080809@bitsavers.org>
References: <201112072048.pB7KmPbq012332@floodgap.com>
 <4937aba2843563f375b9548cede4cbda.squirrel@_>
 <4EDFFE97.9080809@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <p06240800cb05c8cfa270@[192.168.1.157]>

At 4:02 PM -0800 12/7/11, Al Kossow wrote:
>On 12/7/11 3:13 PM, healyzh at aracnet.com wrote:
>>>>I'd question the existence of *GOOD* 68k Mac emulators.
>>>
>
>MESS is currently the most accurate.

I didn't realize MESS was an option (though I've also never tried it out).

I managed to get SheepShaver running, with WP for Mac (it can sort of 
convert the WP 4.2/DOS documents I have).  Now I just need to find a 
backup of one of my old systems with ClarisDraw and Master of Orion, 
so I can try to get those running.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From cym224 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 08:04:28 2011
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 09:04:28 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4edeb04b.57c3e70a.7df2.1291@mx.google.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <4edeb04b.57c3e70a.7df2.1291@mx.google.com>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 6 December 2011 19:09, Tom <a50mhzham at gmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
> WordPerfect is still out there; believe it or not my company still uses it
> as its primary word processing program. Not everyone has drunk the microsoft
> kool-aid. We're moving towards OpenOffice; all the IT types use that but
> still have to support WP. Recent versions of WordPerfect can export
> ("SaveAs") a variety of formats, including RTF which should be readable by
> any given word processing program.

We still use WP 3.5 on PPC (which is freely available).  We are loath
to move to recent Macs as we would lose it or purchase Windoze
versions).  The "show-codes" feature has saved us a fair amount of
grief over the years when editing large documents.  Why do the others
not have it?  (Is it an IPR issue?)


From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com  Wed Dec  7 21:44:49 2011
From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis)
Date: Wed, 7 Dec 2011 20:44:49 -0700
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 7, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >
> > > I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
> > > to reverse engineer.
> >
> > Why "need"? Why not wait until the appropriate docs pop out of the
> > woodwork? ND made a fair number of those 812 minis, so there is
> > probably a decent chance that eventually you can use the real deal.
>
> Do you have these schematics, or know somebody who does? Do you _know_
> they'restill around? If not, then your comments are (as usual) useless.
>
> >
> > Of course, it is a gamble, and may take years, but the time spent
> > doing all the reverse engineering could perhaps be better utilized
> > elsewhere.
>
> It's a hobby (I assume), in which case you can't justify the use of
> time.  I know that if I was in this postion, I'd start tracing out the
> schematics, since then I was doing _something_, and I know of no beter
> way to get the scheamtic burned into your mind than to trace it out by
> hand. You will spot all sorts of things doing that.
>
> >
> > --
> > Will
>
> When was the last time you actualyl posted soemthign useful to this list?
>
> -tony
>

Wow, this list seems to be getting really hostile lately... I suppose I
could
jump in with a comment about the usefulness of applying a spell check
before
"actualyl" posting "soemthign" on a mailing list, at the risk of being
labeled
"useless."

Oh well... I suppose we all have our crosses to bear.


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  8 01:33:22 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 00:33:22 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum sprawl 2
Message-ID: <E1RYYTq-0007wP-UW@shell.xmission.com>

Here are photos updated with the state of things as of tonight:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/sprawl2/index.html>

Progress made:
- SGI PIs loaded into shelving
- SGI Indigo^2s loaded into shelving
- Remaining HP equipment shelved
- Beehive terminals shelved
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  8 01:37:03 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 00:37:03 -0700
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <4EE00590.5060809@gmail.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com> <4EE00590.5060809@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RYYXP-0000UL-OF@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EE00590.5060809 at gmail.com>,
    Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> writes:

> Are you in rented space? Do you foresee the larger/heavier exhibits moving 
> around much, or will they pretty much always occupy the same spot?

Yes and the larger heavier stuff is mostly on wheels, except for the
CDC console.  I've got the Aesthedes on furniture dollies, although
that's a temporary thing.

Will stuff move?  Most likely.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 08:14:17 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 09:14:17 -0500
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddKuAhi_fbxMsdCQzxdsaYwOqnbdD8pQye1GniXjKMSmA@mail.gmail.com>

> Wow, this list seems to be getting really hostile lately...

Yes, it is just Tony with his auto-insult-Will mode turned on. Dave
must have his turned off.

I want to take this time to apologize to the list for not posting
anything useful for quite a few months now. I feel like I have all let
you down. I have been up to the chin in work, specifically the vintage
computing rescue thing, and have traveled many miles and have spent
many dollars packing and moving all sorts of hardware, software, and
documentation.  Perhaps with the year coming to an end I can devote
more time to this list.

Tony, when is the last time you actualyl saved 4500 pounds of
documentation for our community?

--
Will, filtering out Tony and Dave emails for a couple of years now


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 08:33:25 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 09:33:25 -0500
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddKuAhi_fbxMsdCQzxdsaYwOqnbdD8pQye1GniXjKMSmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddKuAhi_fbxMsdCQzxdsaYwOqnbdD8pQye1GniXjKMSmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <33ADE808-3AD8-409A-B6B1-3657F6F1F7CF@gmail.com>

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:14 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

>> Wow, this list seems to be getting really hostile lately...
> 
> Yes, it is just Tony with his auto-insult-Will mode turned on. Dave
> must have his turned off.

It just seems bizarrely out of character for the list, but then I don't know the history (I'm new here) and I probably don't care to (about the only history I don't care to know).  Just seems needlessly hostile.

- Dave




From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 10:23:34 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 08:23:34 -0800
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
In-Reply-To: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwK=0=ZcsAjGwDhhhYoE1SkW2=NVN7SPSyT+LA68P_zVGA@mail.gmail.com>

Unibug ROM dump sent to Eric offlist. I can send this to anyone else that
wants it before Eric contributes this somewhere public.


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  8 10:47:29 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 09:47:29 -0700
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RYh85-0006XG-Iz@shell.xmission.com>


> [Tony Duel bitching at Will Donzelli]

For the record, I found Will's reply useful.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From brian at quarterbyte.com  Thu Dec  8 12:16:45 2011
From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:16:45 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
Message-ID: <4EE0FF0D.3404.E2BB319@brian.quarterbyte.com>

I make the bulk of my living converting documents in WordPerfect 5 and 
up, IBM DCF and Bookmaster, and Interleaf to current formats. 

Is anyone interested in hearing a bit about the problems using current 
word processors to import the old formats? It's sort of on-topic, as 
these are vintage products, even if still in use, but I won't bother 
the list if it's not of interest.

Brian
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
_| _| _|  Brian Knittel
_| _| _|  Quarterbyte Systems, Inc.
_| _| _|  Tel: 1-510-559-7930
_| _| _|  http://www.quarterbyte.com



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 12:36:07 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 13:36:07 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE0FF0D.3404.E2BB319@brian.quarterbyte.com>
References: <4EE0FF0D.3404.E2BB319@brian.quarterbyte.com>
Message-ID: <73B7F32F-ED8A-4DD7-B76C-0D557232777D@gmail.com>

On Dec 8, 2011, at 1:16 PM, Brian Knittel wrote:

> I make the bulk of my living converting documents in WordPerfect 5 and 
> up, IBM DCF and Bookmaster, and Interleaf to current formats. 
> 
> Is anyone interested in hearing a bit about the problems using current 
> word processors to import the old formats? It's sort of on-topic, as 
> these are vintage products, even if still in use, but I won't bother 
> the list if it's not of interest.

Well, I'm always interested in format conversion issues, whether it's disk images or not.  I can't speak for everyone else.

- Dave





From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Thu Dec  8 12:37:38 2011
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:37:38 +0100
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
 <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE103F2.2020104@bluewin.ch>

On Dec 6, 2011, at 1:52 PM, Richard wrote:
>> I've got a bunch of Nuclear Data peripheral circuit boards that I need
>> to reverse engineer.  They are simple circuit boards with all the
>> tracings visible (i.e. no internal layers) and the parts are all 7400
>> series logic in standard DIP packaging.
>>
>> If I were to do this manually, I would take high resolution
>> photographs of both sides of the board.  From the photographs, I would
>> try to recreate engineering drawings: part placement and circuit
>> topology.
>>
>> I'm wondering what kind of tools are out there that would assist in
>> this.  Could I process the photos to extract the topology of the
>> printed circuit traces?  Can I correlate this with image recognition
>> of the part packages and combine them to product a netlist?
>>
>> I'd appreciate hearing any experiences from others that have reverse
>> engineered circuitry.

My experience reverse engineering the ETH Lilith  :

around 10 PCB's ( omnibus size, they even share the same card edge connector )
Mostly TTL,  dual layer, ranging from not pariticular dense ( the CPU, AMD2901 ) to rather dense ( Ethernet card, in TTL)
Total number of IC's : ~ 500

Method used :  Eagle CAD program.
Enter all IC's, with correct instance names , as on the PCB.
Start measuring !
  A really good connection tester is indeed a requirement, mine has less than 20 mV output.
This ensures diodes and circuit protections are not falsely seen as connections.

Wire up the IC's in Eagle, move and group functional blocks as you see fit.

The result can be downloaded from ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/CAD/
Take a look at "magnet.sch"
This is the ethernet card and is the only schematic that is not fully done ( around 75 % finished), it gives a good idea how i worked.

Total time take 2 months, 1-2 hr /day.

Of course , a few months later I could find the original schematics at the ETH...
These are now up on bitsavers.
And I did ask before I started, but asked the wrong person.

  It did enable me to find some bugs in the original schematics though !

Jos,  whos Lilith is now running again after many fruitless hours with the oscilloscope, and 2 drops of oil on the right spot ( voice coil carrier ball bearings )









From vintagecoder at aol.com  Thu Dec  8 12:39:01 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 18:39:01 +0000
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE0FF0D.3404.E2BB319@brian.quarterbyte.com>
Message-ID: <201112081839.pB8Id6re008693@ims-m11.mx.aol.com>

From: "Brian Knittel" <brian at quarterbyte.com>

> I make the bulk of my living converting documents in WordPerfect 5 and
> up, IBM DCF and Bookmaster, and Interleaf to current formats.

I didn't know there was any non-magical way to convert Bookmanager to PDF.
Are you saying you can do that?

> Is anyone interested in hearing a bit about the problems using current
> word processors to import the old formats? It's sort of on-topic, as
> these are vintage products, even if still in use, but I won't bother the
> list if it's not of interest. 

I certainly am, since I have and have access to a bunch of Bookmanager doc
that is worthless on PCs although I love it on mainframes.

-- 
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Vintage Coder America Online          ivagntrpbqre at nby.pbz <ROT13>     |
|                                                                        |
| Collecting: DOS assemblers, compilers, & books (Z80, M68K, 6502, 808X) |
| 	      Software & doc for IBM S/360 through OS/390                |
|                                                                        |
| Wants:      Ada 95 compilers for MVS/ESA & Solaris SPARC               |
|             PL/I X Optimizing Compiler for MVS, APL/SV for MVS         |
|             Stony Brook Modula-2 for Solaris SPARC                     |
|---------------------------------------+--------------------------------|
|        Powered by Slackware 64 Intel and Solaris 10 SPARC              |
|=======================================+================================|
| PGP Key 4096R     0x1CB84BEFC73ACB32     Encrypted email preferred     |
| PGP Fingerprint   5C1C 3AEB A7B2 E6F7 34A0  2870 1CB8 4BEF C73A CB32   |
+------------------------------------------------------------------------+


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  8 12:40:17 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:40:17 -0800
Subject: Unibug ROM for TI TM990/189 University Board
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwK=0=ZcsAjGwDhhhYoE1SkW2=NVN7SPSyT+LA68P_zVGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
 <CAM2UOwK=0=ZcsAjGwDhhhYoE1SkW2=NVN7SPSyT+LA68P_zVGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE10491.70706@bitsavers.org>

On 12/8/11 8:23 AM, Glen Slick wrote:
> Unibug ROM dump sent to Eric offlist. I can send this to anyone else that
> wants it before Eric contributes this somewhere public.
>
>
Eric forwarded it to me. It has been uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/bits/TI/990/990-189/unibug.zip




From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  8 12:42:31 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 10:42:31 -0800
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddKuAhi_fbxMsdCQzxdsaYwOqnbdD8pQye1GniXjKMSmA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CANij+dfc0VdTynu1jP6GAeSzcgEnL7_A=PrF4rk-DPJ9jDPEPQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RYOP5-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <CAOPi=7D6nDJ1ZkhbDZ-rtNWDPH=BSVrHbirdOqy7x-ps4RkQZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddKuAhi_fbxMsdCQzxdsaYwOqnbdD8pQye1GniXjKMSmA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE10517.7080803@bitsavers.org>

On 12/8/11 6:14 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> Wow, this list seems to be getting really hostile lately...
>
> Yes, it is just Tony with his auto-insult-Will mode turned on. Dave
> must have his turned off.

> Tony, when is the last time you actualyl saved 4500 pounds of
> documentation for our community?
>

I added Duell to my killfile several months ago.
We know what his opinions are by now, and how little he actually
contributes vs. the bile he spews.





From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  8 13:42:14 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:42:14 -0700
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <4EE103F2.2020104@bluewin.ch>
References: <E1RY07i-0004qq-O8@shell.xmission.com>
 <4DF740DD-A525-4459-B676-B38A23C77BD6@gmail.com>
 <4EE103F2.2020104@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <E1RYjrC-0006g4-Ds@shell.xmission.com>


Thanks Vincent and Jos for very helpful replies.  I will give it a go
with Eagle and see how well I can do.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec  8 13:50:43 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 11:50:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>
 <4edeb04b.57c3e70a.7df2.1291@mx.google.com>
 <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111208114038.S97768@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 7 Dec 2011, Nemo wrote:
> We still use WP 3.5 on PPC (which is freely available).  We are loath
> to move to recent Macs as we would lose it or purchase Windoze
> versions).  The "show-codes" feature has saved us a fair amount of
> grief over the years when editing large documents.  Why do the others
> not have it?  (Is it an IPR issue?)

WYSIWYG and YAFIYGI both have their uses and benefits.
Nothing beats WYSIWYG for an amateur playing with fonts;
V "I KNOW what they look like.  I can get more DONE, putting in the codes
while working in text mode."


I have never been a fan of WordPervert (and they were "cut their
amplifier power cord at night" neighbors at Comdex!  No, I was never the
one who cut it.)
BUT, "show codes" was a major redeeming feature!
The split screen mode, with its fake cursor, posed some trivial extra
challenges when printing out screens for Sybex books.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec  8 14:24:04 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:24:04 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <20111208114038.S97768@shell.lmi.net>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>,
 <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111208114038.S97768@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Dec 2011 at 11:50, Fred Cisin wrote:

> WYSIWYG and YAFIYGI both have their uses and benefits.
> Nothing beats WYSIWYG for an amateur playing with fonts;
> V "I KNOW what they look like.  I can get more DONE, putting in the
> codes while working in text mode."

There's still much to be said for handling things with WordStar.  My 
editor-of-choice on Linux is Joe.  The other day, I was given a mass 
of text that included tables that needed to be edited, replacing 
columns and duplicating others.  WordStar column mode to the rescue.

WordStar was WYSIWYG until prop fonts came along.  I still have an 
add-on kit for WS 3.3 (CP/M) that allows for prop spaced fonts, even 
if they don't show on the screen.

There were several early text-processing packages whose formatted 
output was very different from what was being displayed on the 
screen.  Troff wasn't even remotely the first.

I find that music notation is very similar to text layout.  Actually, 
it compares more accurately to calligraphy.

It wasn't all that long ago that most music scores were produced by 
copper plate engraving by hand.  And the result was some truly 
artistic work.  Even today, the troff-type Lilypond still struggles 
to match the quality of the old hand-engraved scores.  By the same 
token, I can identify a computer-produced score from the likes of 
Sibelius and Finale in a heartbeat.  There's no "flow" or "style" to 
the output.

To see what I mean, take a look at the Lilypond essay:

http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/introduction

That being said, setting a full orchestra score by text input into 
Lilypond is unbelievably onerous.  Most of the WYSIWYG "front end" 
packages to Lilypond have been abandonded or are buggy or awkward.

--Chuck



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec  8 14:33:12 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:33:12 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: tools for reverse engineering schematics from boards?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddKuAhi_fbxMsdCQzxdsaYwOqnbdD8pQye1GniXjKMSmA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "William Donzelli" at Dec 8, 11 09:14:17 am
Message-ID: <m1RYkec-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> 
> > Wow, this list seems to be getting really hostile lately...
> 
> Yes, it is just Tony with his auto-insult-Will mode turned on. Dave
> must have his turned off.

Correction. I was making a sepcific comment. Replying to a request for 
infromation by suggesting he waits for vapourwar is not IMHO at all useful/

> 
> I want to take this time to apologize to the list for not posting
> anything useful for quite a few months now. I feel like I have all let

s/months/years/

> you down. I have been up to the chin in work, specifically the vintage
> computing rescue thing, and have traveled many miles and have spent
> many dollars packing and moving all sorts of hardware, software, and
> documentation.  Perhaps with the year coming to an end I can devote
> more time to this list.
> 
> Tony, when is the last time you actualyl saved 4500 pounds of
> documentation for our community?

And when was the last tiem you wrote a repair manual for a machine where 
hte origianl service information was never publisehd? And thewn gave it 
all away free?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec  8 14:12:53 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:12:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew
 Burton" at Dec 7, 11 09:32:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1RYkKz-000J43C@p850ug1>

> Most mobile phones (atleast the ones I have seen) have 2 options -
> predictive text (T9 mode on my 8 year old mobile phone) and ABC mode. There
> should be a way to switch it to ABC mode, though some mobiles have

I thought there should be, but I can't find it on the menus (It's a 
Nokia, I can find the model number (6210, possibly) if anyone thinks they 
can help). 

> predictive text on as default (so you have to turn it off every time you
> need to text).

Argh!. 

> I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes predictive text.

Well I absolutely hate it... Jaut as I hate software autoconfiguration 
routines that think they know more about my computer's hardware than I do...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec  8 14:23:21 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:23:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 8, 11 01:14:35 am
Message-ID: <m1RYkV6-000J49C@p850ug1>

> > I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes predictive text.
> 
> [Waves] Hi!
> 
> It's fine once you get used to it. It really does use fewer keystrokes
> - quite a lot fewer.

Maybe it does, for most messages. But it's a right pain when your message 
is full of unusual abreviations. I prefer to get what I type, and not 
have earlier characters changed when I add more letters to the word or 
whatever.

> 
> It's great if you learn how to use it /if/ you are a relatively light
> to moderate texter. Heavy users who want the absolute maximum speed,
> however, seem to favour non-predictive entry, as it is deterministic,
> so you don't need to wait and see what emerges. Predictive text is

I am not a heavy user of text messaging, but I do like my machines to be 
deterministic. That's the main reason I use an RPN calculator, for example.

> interactive: you press the keys, just once each, for each letter, then
> you step through the offered words, pick the one you want and move on
> - or teach the phone the new word. This means that the list of

I think I'd end up teaching the phone just about every possible sequence 
of letters. I've been known to send messages including assembly language 
nmemonics, signal names, etc. Things that will not be in any normal list.

[...]

> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.

The bigi difference being that unix wildcards are complicated for a 
reason - -tjhey let you do poweful things. Predicitve text just gets in 
the way! In any case, you don't _have_ to use wildcards in unix (you can 
always type the neames explicitly). On the other hand, I've not found a 
way to avoid this darn predictive text.

-tony


From brian at quarterbyte.com  Thu Dec  8 14:50:59 2011
From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:50:59 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
Message-ID: <4EE12333.24570.EB8E8E1@brian.quarterbyte.com>

vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:

> I didn't know there was any non-magical way to convert Bookmanager
> to PDF. Are you saying you can do that?  

I can work with DCF and Bookmaster _source_ documents, not compiled 
binary Bookmanager, unfortunately.

> I certainly am, since I have and have access to a bunch of
> Bookmanager doc that is worthless on PCs although I love it on
> mainframes. 

The comments I wrote yesterday (and posted to cctalk-request by 
mistake) are about the import and export filters provided with Word, 
WordPerfect, OpenOffice etc, not about DCF/Bookmaster, which really 
live in another world. I'll post those comments shortly.  

Bookmaster is pretty great, and it converts to DITA XML in a rather 
straightforward way, which is no surprise since the latter is a direct 
descendent of the former.

1978:
   :note text='Warning'.
   Don't run with scissors.
   :enote.

2011:
   <note type='warning'>
   Don't run with scissors.
   </note>

DCF (which is the IBM branch of the RUNOFF family tree, upon which 
Bookmaster is based) is another story. In the hands of documentation 
folks, it was a markup format. In the hands of engineers, it was a 
programming language. When engineers wrote documentation, it was a 
hairy mess. I've untangled some "interesting" DCF documents.

Brian



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec  8 15:03:59 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 16:03:59 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>

On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.

   UNIX shell wildcards?  A question mark matches any single character, 
an asterisk matches any number of any characters.  What's so tough about 
that?

   Regexps aren't quite that simple, but I have a hard time believing 
anyone couldn't get the general idea after maybe ten minutes.  If you 
want to learn that stuff, contact me offlist and I'll be happy to help.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From brian at quarterbyte.com  Thu Dec  8 15:26:51 2011
From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:26:51 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
Message-ID: <4EE12B9B.2056.ED9BFBD@brian.quarterbyte.com>

I wrote this note yesterday, but replied to cctalk-request by mistake. 
(The listserv engine wasn't impressed, by the way).
...  

If you're using the built-in import or export filters provided with 
Word, WordPerfect, OpenOffice, or whatever, for your own documents, 
check over the results *very carefully* on a computer that does not 
have the old word processor installed. For documents anything more 
complex than a grocery list, the conversion tools provided with 
document processing programs are not quite what you'd hope for.  

One bit of advice I have is, if you want to convert old documents, do 
it now. As each new edition of Word or Corel Office comes out, tools 
for converting the oldest formats either disappear, or they stop 
working and the vendors aren't doing the QA to know this. (The current 
version of Quattro Pro crashes trying to open many spreadsheets in the 
old .WB2 and .WB3 formats, for instance). People in this group may have 
intermediate, older software versions lying around, but most folks 
don't.

My experience is that both import and export tools do a decent job of 
getting raw text in and out. Formatting, styling, graphics, equations, 
cross references and outline numbering schemes? Not so much. But this 
is where the investment in a document lies. Text is cheap. One way of 
converting legacy formats is to have printed pages retyped in China or 
India at under a dollar a page. (This is a real industry.) But 
formatting is really expensive. Complex documents with drawings, math 
or tables can cost a business $25 to 100 a page, or more, to have 
reworked by skilled clerical or technical staff.

Word's import filters are *horrible*. The result *might* look ok at 
first, but it goes downhill fast one you start editing or try to apply 
a consistent stylesheet. Their treatment of equations and graphics is 
downright dangerous. The filter that extracts WordPerfect's WPG 
graphics only converts the basic [0,x] character set for text that 
appears in labels in graphics. Characters in the other sets turn into 
spaces. I saw a drawing that used the "1/2" symbol in a label that read 
something along the lines of "IMPORTANT: TIGHTEN THIS NUT TO 2 1/2 FOOT 
POUNDS" come out "IMPORTANT: TIGHTEN THIS NUT TO 2  FOOT POUNDS."  The 
equation importer is no better. "grad" (nabla, the upside-down 
triangle) and "Delta" both come out as an uppercase Delta. Some other 
symbols are dropped entirely. Many equations simply don't convert at 
all. This has been the state of the filters since at least Office 97. 
Microsoft has made no corrections.  

OpenOffice? I've found it crashy, especially when trying to export or 
import. Small documents, OK. Big, complex documents, no.

Export tools are typically worse than import tools. Vendors aren't 
really motivated to provide a good tool that you can use to escape from 
their product line. You can usually get away with *publishing* to 
another format, but you usually won't get a maintainable *source* 
document. (By maintainable, I mean a document with cross-references 
intact, outline numbering organized the way the new environment's 
native numbering system works, typography governed by a single 
consistent style sheet, and so on).

My experience with exporting things from WordPerfect is that equations 
are not editable, or are not converted at all. Graphics exported to any 
vector format (e.g. WMF) still use the proprietary WordPerfect fonts, 
so again, symbols beyond basic ASCII are a big problem. Once you move 
the exported document to a system that doesn't have WordPerfect 
installed, symbols disappear from the graphics. PDFs with embedded 
fonts get around this, but, PDFs are really bad format for documents 
that have to be maintained.

(A couple of years ago we lost a bid to do a conversion for a major US 
oil company. They decided to convert a huge archive of refinery 
operating manuals in-house on the cheap, by making PDFs and then 
converting the PDFs to Word. They will be losing all automatic cross 
references and numbering. After a few future edits, "Before opening 
this valve, see the critical warnings in step 3.32.4 on page 147" will 
be pointing to the wrong comments on the wrong page because these 
numbers are now just literal text. Management didn't seem to be at all 
concerned about this. If I lived next to a refinery on the Gulf Coast, 
I'd move.)

There are a lot of other details that get lost in translation by the 
native tools that won't matter as much to an individual, but do matter 
a lot to organizations that have thousands of documents to maintain. My 
business is there, so I've written converters from scratch. Keeps me 
employed!

Brian
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
_| _| _|  Brian Knittel
_| _| _|  Quarterbyte Systems, Inc.
_| _| _|  Tel: 1-510-559-7930
_| _| _|  http://www.quarterbyte.com



From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Dec  8 15:37:50 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 13:37:50 -0800
Subject: Micro one
In-Reply-To: <4EE10491.70706@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EDFC159.1000105@brouhaha.com>
 <CAM2UOwK=0=ZcsAjGwDhhhYoE1SkW2=NVN7SPSyT+LA68P_zVGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE10491.70706@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EE12E2E.5050801@jwsss.com>

any idea when the Micro one manual might creep over to the scanner and 
on to bitsavers?

thanks
Jim

On 12/8/2011 10:40 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 12/8/11 8:23 AM, Glen Slick wrote:


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec  8 18:11:58 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 16:11:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE12B9B.2056.ED9BFBD@brian.quarterbyte.com>
References: <4EE12B9B.2056.ED9BFBD@brian.quarterbyte.com>
Message-ID: <20111208160852.N9256@shell.lmi.net>

Anybody want some after-market crap about WordPerfect?

Such as Step By Step Word Perfect 6.0 for DOS
Getting Started wit WordPerfect 5.1 for the IBM PC
Mastering and Using WordPerfect 5.1 for Windows
. . . a few miscellaneous similar others

PICK UP in Berkeley.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Thu Dec  8 18:47:31 2011
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:47:31 -0500
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
Message-ID: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>

Hi All,

I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.  I'm just considering
parts now, unless someone has a really good design already set to build.
By "somewhat vintage" what I mean is that I don't want to just drop in
a modern "super chip" that will have ten (or more) times the power of the
intended host computer which, by the way, is an SWTPc 6800.  I figure the
board will have some 8-bit processor on it.  I'm leaning towards a Z-80.
It will have an EPROM, some scratch static RAM, some glue logic to manage
the communication with the SS-30 bus... and this is where I get fuzzy... a
1Kx8 dual ported static RAM and two DACs.  These last two elements (the
dual ported SRAM and the DACs) are where I don't have any experience.  A
little googling has led me to the IDT7130 for the dual ported SRAM and the
DAC0830 for the DACs.  Does anybody in cctalk land have experience with
either or both of these chips?  I have a source for the DAC0830, but I don't
have a source for the IDT7130 yet.  The basic idea of the design is for the
6800 to write a vertex list into the dual ported SRAM which the Z-80 then
reads and pushes to the DACs.  I'm hoping I can just hang these chips off of
the Z-80 address and data busses like the RAM and EPROM but I need to do
some more reading of the spec sheets.

Any help greatly appreciated,
Bill S.



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  8 19:16:55 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 17:16:55 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>

On 12/8/11 4:47 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
> intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.  I'm just considering
> parts now, unless someone has a really good design already set to build.
>

http://www.zektor.com/zvg/



From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Thu Dec  8 19:27:43 2011
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:27:43 -0500
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>

Al Kossow wrote:
> On 12/8/11 4:47 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
> > intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.  I'm just
> considering
> > parts now, unless someone has a really good design already set to
> build.
> >
> 
> http://www.zektor.com/zvg/

Thanks for the suggestion, but too expensive and too modern.



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec  8 19:43:55 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 17:43:55 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>

On 12/8/11 5:27 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
>  too expensive

typical here.

glad to see your time is worthless.



From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net  Thu Dec  8 20:05:52 2011
From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:05:52 -0500
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <0eb401ccb617$144019b0$3cc04d10$@sudbrink@verizon.net>

Al Kossow wrote:
> On 12/8/11 5:27 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> >  too expensive
> 
> typical here.
> 
> glad to see your time is worthless.

Quite the contrary, I enjoy designing and constructing digital
electronics.  I consider it a pleasant use of my time.



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Dec  8 20:06:42 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 18:06:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112081805170.24931@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, Al Kossow wrote:

> On 12/8/11 5:27 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
>>  too expensive
>
> typical here.
>
> glad to see your time is worthless.

Jeeze Al, give the guy a break.  Maybe he's like me and just can't afford 
the silly thing.  I need one to drive a 4" TEWS display for my F-15 
project and will likely have to scratch build one just because of the 
cost.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Thu Dec  8 20:14:37 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 18:14:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <0eb401ccb617$144019b0$3cc04d10$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb401ccb617$144019b0$3cc04d10$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112081813390.25258@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, Bill Sudbrink wrote:

> Al Kossow wrote:
>> On 12/8/11 5:27 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
>>>  too expensive
>>
>> typical here.
>>
>> glad to see your time is worthless.
>
> Quite the contrary, I enjoy designing and constructing digital
> electronics.  I consider it a pleasant use of my time.

Bill, are you planning on something similar to the ZVG or something more 
complex?  I'm going to need an X/Y driver myself here pretty soon.  (I 
also need to find a good 4" round vector tube...)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  8 20:25:52 2011
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:25:52 -0600
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
Message-ID: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>


On the off chance somebody here has done this:

I have 2 wireless routers, one connects to cable and I have an internet connection.  Its a wifi too.

I want to pick up that wireless signal with another router, locate it in the other part of the house to connect a wired ethernet device.  its as if I want a wireless adapter, but not having an output that is usb, but a ethernet jack.

Is this possible?

Its to avoid running a long cat 5 cable thru the house.

Randy
 		 	   		  

From nigel.d.williams at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 20:46:20 2011
From: nigel.d.williams at gmail.com (Nigel Williams)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 13:46:20 +1100
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CANt3_LaVhdUqD3ikfZvsBVX5FkNruMbkBOuuEA36o-pu7Rdfrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 1:25 PM, Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> wrote:

> Is this possible?
>

I did that using dd-wrt:

http://www.dd-wrt.com/wiki/index.php/Client_Bridged

Works very nicely.


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec  8 20:46:37 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 18:46:37 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>

On 8 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Bill Sudbrink wrote:

> I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
> intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.  

Well, if you want "vintage" (and I assume you do) there was at least 
one such project in an old issue of Byte or Kilobaud (IIRC).

Given that typical period (I'm assuming vintage all the way) o-
scope's linearity is none too wonderful, you might get away with a 
single 8255 PPI (or similar parallel chip) and a simple R-2R "ladder" 
DAC.  You can't get much cheaper than that.

--Chuck



From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Dec  8 20:48:52 2011
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:48:52 -0600
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <167F6256-70EB-4E55-A60F-0A92B297688F@classiccmp.org>


On Dec 8, 2011, at 8:25 PM, Randy Dawson wrote:

>
>
>
> Is this possible?
>
> Its to avoid running a long cat 5 cable thru the house.
>
> Randy
> 		 	   		
Depends on the router. If it supports "Bridge Mode", it will do  
exactly that. It seems less than 20% of the typical consumer wireless  
routers support bridge mode these days though. 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec  8 20:51:45 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 21:51:45 -0500
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <6B43FB85-A181-4B97-BFA8-4034FE7C89DD@gmail.com>

On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:25 PM, Randy Dawson wrote:

> 
> On the off chance somebody here has done this:
> 
> I have 2 wireless routers, one connects to cable and I have an internet connection.  Its a wifi too.
> 
> I want to pick up that wireless signal with another router, locate it in the other part of the house to connect a wired ethernet device.  its as if I want a wireless adapter, but not having an output that is usb, but a ethernet jack.
> 
> Is this possible?
> 
> Its to avoid running a long cat 5 cable thru the house.

I do this quite frequently with Apple Airports (one regular base station and one "Express" which hooks up to an Ethernet switch and the stereo).  It works seamlessly; I configure the Express as extending the network and it puts it in bridge mode.  I've never tried interoperating them with other routers, but I'm given to understand that DD-WRT has some facilities for using Apple's scheme (it's not straight WDS, as I understand it, though I've not thoroughly researched it).  I've had bad luck in the past trying to use WDS with generic off-the-shelf routers (none of which supported DD-WRT, or I would have tried it).

- Dave


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec  8 21:01:30 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 22:01:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112081813390.25258@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE16187.8090305@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb001ccb611$c051b020$40f51060$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org>
 <0eb401ccb617$144019b0$3cc04d10$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112081813390.25258@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <201112090301.WAA06152@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Quite the contrary, I enjoy designing and constructing digital
>> electronics.  I consider it a pleasant use of my time.
> I'm going to need an X/Y driver myself here pretty soon.

I ocne used a soundcard output as an X/Y display driver - stereo
output, with X in one channel and Y in the other.

It worked, but not well; the output turned out to be capacitor-coupled
(as in, the long-term DC value is always zero) and is filtered,
presumably in ways that make sense for audio signals.  Still, I managed
to get it to display some simple vector graphics.

One of my "when I win the lottery" projects is to build something
better for that.  Not because I have a use for it, but because I think
it'll be fun to build (or try to build, as the case may be).  I also
want to take a 3RP1 I have and build an oscilloscope around it, a
related but distinctly different project....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  8 21:05:26 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:05:26 -0800
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EE17AF6.6060409@brouhaha.com>

Randy Dawson wrote:
 > I want to pick up that wireless signal with another router, locate
 > it in the other part of the house to connect a wired ethernet device.
 > its as if I want a wireless adapter, but not having an output that is
 > usb, but a ethernet jack.

What you need is called a "wireless bridge".  You can buy a dedicated 
wireless bridge, such as the Linksys WET610N or D-Link DAP-1522.

If you have an extra wireless router sitting around, some of them have a 
bridge mode.  Even if it doesn't, many wireless routers can have their 
firmware replaced with open-source firmware, such as OpenWRT or DD-WRT.  
These then support bridge mode even if the factory firmware did not.  I 
personally prefer OpenWRT, but if you don't have Linux experience, 
you'll have an easier time with DD-WRT.

I use the Linksys DIR-825 simultaneous dual-band router, running 
OpenWRT.  However, it is one of the more expensive SOHO wireless routers.

Eric



From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  8 21:13:31 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:13:31 -0700
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <E1RYqtv-0006FQ-HI@shell.xmission.com>


The HP1350 and 1351 are vector generators that have no CPU, just
a state machine.  Service manuals are aon bitsavers, i.e.
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/graphics/01351-90904_1351A_svc_Jul81.pdf>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec  8 21:17:43 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 20:17:43 -0700
Subject: Nuclear Data/Lilith board photos
Message-ID: <E1RYqxz-0006jv-BD@shell.xmission.com>

<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/boards/>

Also a Lilith/Eve board in there.

Jos, is this a board you've already done?
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  8 21:18:44 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:18:44 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com>

Bill Sudbrink wrote:
>  I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
>  intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.

Chuck Guzis wrote:
>  Well, if you want "vintage" (and I assume you do) there was at least
>  one such project in an old issue of Byte or Kilobaud (IIRC).

"Build the Beer Budget Graphics Interface" by Peter Nelson, in the November 1976 Byte, is a simple point-plot display.

"Make Your Next Peripheral a Real Eye Opener" by Steve Ciarcia, in the November 1976 Byte, with errata in the March 1977 Byte, is a vector display.

"Microvec: The Other Type of Video Display" by Billy Garrett, in the November 1982 Byte, takes the Ciarcia "Eye Opener" design (completely uncredited!) and adds a Z-80 processor system to turn it into a peripheral with a parallel interface.  Apparently Garrett won third prize in an IEEE Region 3 Student Paper Contest; I wonder if the paper submitted to IEEE credited Ciarcia?

Eric




From jwest at classiccmp.org  Thu Dec  8 21:32:11 2011
From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 21:32:11 -0600
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE17AF6.6060409@brouhaha.com>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
 <4EE17AF6.6060409@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <D119692F-B128-4103-AB9D-E88B18885C34@classiccmp.org>


On Dec 8, 2011, at 9:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote:

> .......ated wireless bridge, such as the Linksys WET610N or D-Link  
> DAP-1522.
>
>
> I use the Linksys DIR-825 simultaneous dual-band router, running  
> OpenWRT.  However, it is one of the more expensive SOHO wireless  
> routers.
>

in my primary house I use a DIR-825 dual band for the main router, and  
have three DAP-1522 dual bands in the rest of the house. Odd, mine all  
say D-link on them, not linksys ;)

I prefer the dual band, as I can keep all the media (TV, audio, etc.)  
on the 5ghz band and keep the data traffic on the 2.4ghz band.

Jay




From rdawson16 at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  8 21:36:53 2011
From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 21:36:53 -0600
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>,
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <BLU145-W229E1AC180B7C5EA4C3821BAB90@phx.gbl>




> Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 19:18:44 -0800
> From: eric at brouhaha.com
> To: 
> Subject: Re: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
> 
> Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> >  I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
> >  intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.
> 
> Chuck Guzis wrote:
> >  Well, if you want "vintage" (and I assume you do) there was at least
> >  one such project in an old issue of Byte or Kilobaud (IIRC).
> 
> "Build the Beer Budget Graphics Interface" by Peter Nelson, in the November 1976 Byte, is a simple point-plot display.
> 
> "Make Your Next Peripheral a Real Eye Opener" by Steve Ciarcia, in the November 1976 Byte, with errata in the March 1977 Byte, is a vector display.
> 
> "Microvec: The Other Type of Video Display" by Billy Garrett, in the November 1982 Byte, takes the Ciarcia "Eye Opener" design (completely uncredited!) and adds a Z-80 processor system to turn it into a peripheral with a parallel interface.  Apparently Garrett won third prize in an IEEE Region 3 Student Paper Contest; I wonder if the paper submitted to IEEE credited Ciarcia?
> 
> Eric
> 
> 

You should start with this:

http://www.jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm


 		 	   		  

From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec  8 21:45:54 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 19:45:54 -0800
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <D119692F-B128-4103-AB9D-E88B18885C34@classiccmp.org>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
 <4EE17AF6.6060409@brouhaha.com>
 <D119692F-B128-4103-AB9D-E88B18885C34@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EE18472.50204@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
 > I use the Linksys DIR-825 simultaneous dual-band router, running 
OpenWRT.

Jay West wrote:
 > Odd, mine all say D-link on them, not linksys ;)

I guess mine is a collector's item!  What a rare misprint!  I'll sell it 
on eBay for big bucks, it should go for more than a 1955 Double-D 
penny!  :-)

Oh, wait.  Mine says D-Link after all.  Once again my plans to become 
wealthy beyond my wildest dreams of avarice are foiled.

Eric




From dougcoward at hotmail.com  Thu Dec  8 22:46:20 2011
From: dougcoward at hotmail.com (Doug Coward)
Date: Thu, 8 Dec 2011 20:46:20 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
Message-ID: <SNT133-W41B041C44CF7A75AF92038DAB90@phx.gbl>


 
Chuck said:
> Well, if you want "vintage" (and I assume you do) there was at least 
> one such project in an old issue of Byte or Kilobaud (IIRC).
 
 Wow, that takes me back. I built one back in late 1984 on a board to
fit into the expansion port of the C64. I believe it was Byte and I
believe the project was originally for the Apple II.
 
AFAIR
 The board had 16 buffers on the address lines feeding two precision
resistor networks. One network for the lower 8 address lines connected 
to the oscilloscope X input. The other network for the upper 8 address
lines fed the Y input. Giving you a 256 x 256 vector display of where 
the processor was accessing memory.
 
  I had a paying job to break software protection on some C64 games.
And this help alot to determine which parts of memory where pieces of 
code were being stored.
 
  For a while I toyed with the idea of writing a vector verse of Tic-Tac-Toe
by programatically putting jmp code pieces out in memory and jump from piece 
to piece in a loop create the graphics on the oscilloscope.
 
--Doug Coward Poulsbo, WA 
The new home of the
Analog Museum and History Center is 
http://www.cowardstereoview.com/analog
 		 	   		  

From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Dec  8 23:01:01 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:01:01 -0800
Subject: Looking for: "STP Connector Card" for a VT103
Message-ID: <4EE1960D.7050905@mail.msu.edu>

This is a long shot -- anyone have a spare "STP Connector Card" for a 
VT103?  This is a small paddle board that plugs into the main VT100 
circuit board (on the J3 slot).  Basically it re-routes the external 
serial port internally in order to allow it to connect to the VT-103's 
internal PDP-11.

It's a completely passive device and I have the schematic, PCB layout, 
and pinouts so it's not looking like it would be too difficult to just 
build one, but I figured I'd ask before I went through the effort.

(And for those interested, I'm finally doing something fun with the 
VT-103 I got a few years ago.  I've upgraded the backplane to 22 bits, 
and I've installed a QED 993 board (a 3rd-party 11/93 clone with 4mb 
memory onboard).  Now I just need to work out the SLU connections for 
the terminal itself (hence the STP connector) and work out some 
storage... maybe I'll just borrow the SCSI card from my MicroVAX...)

Thanks as always,
Josh


From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Fri Dec  9 02:02:22 2011
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 09:02:22 +0100
Subject: Nuclear Data/Lilith board photos
In-Reply-To: <E1RYqxz-0006jv-BD@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYqxz-0006jv-BD@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EE1C08E.1050704@bluewin.ch>

On 12/09/2011 04:17 AM, Richard wrote:
> <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/boards/>
>
> Also a Lilith/Eve board in there.
>
> Jos, is this a board you've already done?
Yes, that is a CDP  board.

Pictures of all my Lilith boards are on  ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Pictures/

Feel free to add them to you collection . Al, that is valid for you too of course .


The CDP handles RS232, mouse X/Y counters,  keyboard and some other stuff i cant remember now.
Mine is rev A, yours is rev B, can't see much changes.
Mine has no ECO's.
Strange to see U6 fitted, it is only required when you have an actual quartz crystal instead of a canned oscillator.

Yours is marked "BAD". First line  of attack are the 1488/89 RS232 drivers.
The Lilith has several identical DB25 connectors, misconnecting one will kill these drivers.


Jos



From nanoman at stny.rr.com  Thu Dec  8 20:40:18 2011
From: nanoman at stny.rr.com (N Man)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:40:18 -0500
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EE17512.8090807@stny.rr.com>

Randy,

I believe you are looking for a wireless bridge (e.g. Linksys WET54G or 
similar).

Linksys - Wireless-G - 54 Mbps - WEP Connect any Ethernet-equipped 
device to a high-speed Wireless-G Network. The versatile Wireless-G 
Ethernet Bridge can make any wired Ethernet-equipped device a part of 
your wireless network. At home, use the Bridge to connect game consoles, 
set-top boxes, or computers to your Wireless-G network and its shared 
high-speed Internet connection. In the office, convert your 
Ethernet-wired printer, scanner, camera, notebook or desktop into a 
wireless networked device. It's completely driver-free, so it works on 
any platform and under any operating system! Since there are no drivers 
to load, setup is a snap - configure the network settings through your 
PC's web



On 12/8/2011 9:25 PM, Randy Dawson wrote:
> On the off chance somebody here has done this:
>
> I have 2 wireless routers, one connects to cable and I have an internet connection.  Its a wifi too.
>
> I want to pick up that wireless signal with another router, locate it in the other part of the house to connect a wired ethernet device.  its as if I want a wireless adapter, but not having an output that is usb, but a ethernet jack.
>
> Is this possible?
>
> Its to avoid running a long cat 5 cable thru the house.
>
> Randy
>   		 	   		
>



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 06:48:52 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 07:48:52 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>,
 <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111208114038.S97768@shell.lmi.net> <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112090748000.6933@duo>

On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> WordStar was WYSIWYG until prop fonts came along.  I still have an
> add-on kit for WS 3.3 (CP/M) that allows for prop spaced fonts, even
> if they don't show on the screen.

PropStar?  I still have a copy of that somewhere.  It worked on dot-matrix 
printers, but was painful.  I couldn't afford a laser printer at the time.



-- 



From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Dec  9 10:39:35 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 10:39:35 -0600
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE17512.8090807@stny.rr.com>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
 <4EE17512.8090807@stny.rr.com>
Message-ID: <201112091640.pB9Gduj7063972@billy.ezwind.net>

At 08:40 PM 12/8/2011, N Man wrote:
>I believe you are looking for a wireless bridge (e.g. Linksys WET54G or similar).

You'll also see them as ~$80 "gaming adapters" at big-box consumer electronics 
stores.

- John



From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec  9 10:49:00 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 09:49:00 -0700
Subject: Wanted: TI 733 KSR/ASR acoustic coupler or cover plate
Message-ID: <E1RZ3d6-00025B-AP@shell.xmission.com>

Hi,

If you take a look at this photo you'll notice an acoustic coupler
attached to a mounting plate on the right hand side:
<http://user.xmission.com/~legalize/tmp/TI_733_KSR.jpg>

I'm looking for either the cover plate for this opening, or the
acoustic coupler for this opening.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec  9 10:54:10 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 08:54:10 -0800
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <201112091640.pB9Gduj7063972@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
 <4EE17512.8090807@stny.rr.com> <201112091640.pB9Gduj7063972@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EE23D32.50902@brouhaha.com>

John Foust wrote:
 > You'll also see them as ~$80 "gaming adapters" at big-box consumer 
electronics
 > stores.

Yes, but you can find a wireless bridge for $50.

It used to be the case that a gaming adapter would only work for a 
single wired ethernet device, and that you couldn't put multiple devices 
behind it.  There was a (somewhat) legitimate technical reason for this, 
as the gaming adapter did not actually work in the same way as a 
wireless bridge.  I do not know whether that is still true of gaming 
adapters sold today.

Eric



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  9 11:09:30 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 09:09:30 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112090748000.6933@duo>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>,
 <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112090748000.6933@duo>
Message-ID: <4EE1D04A.650.C4ABA@cclist.sydex.com>

On 9 Dec 2011 at 7:48, Steven Hirsch wrote:

> On Thu, 8 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> > WordStar was WYSIWYG until prop fonts came along.  I still have an
> > add-on kit for WS 3.3 (CP/M) that allows for prop spaced fonts, even
> > if they don't show on the screen.
> 
> PropStar?  I still have a copy of that somewhere.  It worked on
> dot-matrix printers, but was painful.  I couldn't afford a laser
> printer at the time.

No, this was a series of patches to WordStar.  I used mine on a 
daisywheel (Diablo).  It turned out that WS 3.3 always had the 
capability to do prop spacing, but there were errors in the 
implementation, so it was turned off.  I recall that what I purchased 
(still have it somewhere) didn't even come wih a disk--it was a 
series of instructions for patching.

When I moved to 16-bit MS-DOS, I used WS 2000 for several years.  A 
good product, but it was too strange to old WS users to get 
accustomed to, so it was much less popular.  It came with a copy of 
Star Exchange, which was very useful for converting from (and to) 
alien WP formats.  I've used it recently for some crufty old stuff 
that old conversion packages like RdocX and WordPort couldn't handle.

I have a copy of WS 7 for Windows, but have never used it.

I recall that at one time, Adobe Pagemaker was the format that nobody 
could handle in any reasable way.  Fortunately, we rarely see it any 
more.

--Chuck



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec  9 11:20:00 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 18:20:00 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

HI Devin,

In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on
a testboard and applied power and clock.
Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to
read on those sites.

Thanks,

Holm

Devin Monnens wrote:

> Holm,
> 
> I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
> Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
> these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
> 
> http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
> http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
> here or maybe here:
> http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
> - I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
> 
> -Devin Monnens
> 
> 
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 14
> > Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
> > From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> > Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> > Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> >
> > I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
> > My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems to
> > understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
> > There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
> > sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
> > It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the start
> > address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
> > Can anyone please confirm this?
> >
> > BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
> >
> > Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
> > support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
> >
> > Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
> >
> > Holm
> > --
> >      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >
> >
> -- 
> Devin Monnens
> www.deserthat.com
> 
> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec  9 12:28:34 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 13:28:34 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE12B9B.2056.ED9BFBD@brian.quarterbyte.com>
References: <4EE12B9B.2056.ED9BFBD@brian.quarterbyte.com>
Message-ID: <EB03771F-F320-4207-ABAB-7C5DF45C84AF@gmail.com>

On Dec 8, 2011, at 4:26 PM, Brian Knittel wrote:

> My experience is that both import and export tools do a decent job of 
> getting raw text in and out. Formatting, styling, graphics, equations, 
> cross references and outline numbering schemes? Not so much. But this 
> is where the investment in a document lies. Text is cheap. One way of 
> converting legacy formats is to have printed pages retyped in China or 
> India at under a dollar a page. (This is a real industry.) But 
> formatting is really expensive. Complex documents with drawings, math 
> or tables can cost a business $25 to 100 a page, or more, to have 
> reworked by skilled clerical or technical staff.

Hah, no kidding.  My dad's been doing this for well over a decade for a small linguistic journal (the Journal of Indo-European Studies).  Good money to be made in that, especially for a linguistic journal that uses all sorts of weird phonetic markings for long-dead languages.  He's even modified a font to add appropriate markings to the character set (long before Unicode was popular).

- Dave




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec  9 12:54:47 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 10:54:47 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <EB03771F-F320-4207-ABAB-7C5DF45C84AF@gmail.com>
References: <4EE12B9B.2056.ED9BFBD@brian.quarterbyte.com>,
 <EB03771F-F320-4207-ABAB-7C5DF45C84AF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE1E8F7.2993.6CAD1B@cclist.sydex.com>

On 9 Dec 2011 at 13:28, David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 8, 2011, at 4:26 PM, Brian Knittel wrote:
> 
> > My experience is that both import and export tools do a decent job
> > of getting raw text in and out. Formatting, styling, graphics,
> > equations, cross references and outline numbering schemes? Not so
> > much. But this is where the investment in a document lies. Text is
> > cheap. One way of converting legacy formats is to have printed pages
> > retyped in China or India at under a dollar a page. (This is a real
> > industry.) But formatting is really expensive. Complex documents
> > with drawings, math or tables can cost a business $25 to 100 a page,
> > or more, to have reworked by skilled clerical or technical staff.
> 
> Hah, no kidding.  My dad's been doing this for well over a decade for
> a small linguistic journal (the Journal of Indo-European Studies). 
> Good money to be made in that, especially for a linguistic journal
> that uses all sorts of weird phonetic markings for long-dead
> languages.  He's even modified a font to add appropriate markings to
> the character set (long before Unicode was popular).

I've wondered for a time if a better "universal" format than raw text 
was plain old HTML 2.0.    It's what people expect to see nowadays 
and the tough job of rendering is left to a browser.

Some years ago, I wrote a WPS 1.0 to HTML conversion package that 
produced some very nice-looking results, but never could get much 
enthusiasm going.

So for now, I stay with RTF.

Some formats require an understading of the peripherals, rather than 
the CPU unit.  Displaywriter is one such that relies on the printer 
to do the fancy formatting for much of the (EBCDIC) document.

--Chuck



From rwhyre+cctalk at picrad.com  Fri Dec  9 14:24:39 2011
From: rwhyre+cctalk at picrad.com (Ralph H)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 15:24:39 -0500
Subject: Any documentation / schematics for STEbus interfaces
Message-ID: <CAMOU0xbUMpzyFQk_DyGWC_u4GAZxR2aGMvHJL=e+asQ6SrOk-A@mail.gmail.com>

This 1980s-era bus supported multiple CPUs, and 20 bits of address space.
It was also known as IEEE-1000 (until that standard was withdrawn), and
used the DIN 41612 connector
common to VMEbus systems of that time.

I'm trying to find details on interface circuits, schematics for old
boards, etc.


From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Fri Dec  9 15:15:05 2011
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 22:15:05 +0100
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden  
Message-ID: <201112092116.pB9LG9dq072851@billy.ezwind.net>

Hi,
does anyone consider going for these already?
I can offer a home for (also just some of) that stuff in southern Germany if nobody else does, but unfortunately I can not assist with collecting and shipping right now.
Anybody able to do a store&forward please contact me. Expenses within reason will be covered.
Save The VAXen (...and their ilk)!
Yours sincerely,
Arno.
-----Original Message:-----
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 23:50:56 +0100
From: Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se>
Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>

Hi

If you live close to Gothenburg and can act within a few days I know of
some medium sized alpha and small vax machines available for pickup.
VT100 and VT520 terminals also.

Contact me offlist.

Regards,
Pontus.

Arno Kletzander
...sent from HTC Magician PDA



From jecel at merlintec.com  Fri Dec  9 16:21:36 2011
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 19:21:36 -0300 
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W229E1AC180B7C5EA4C3821BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>,
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com> <BLU145-W229E1AC180B7C5EA4C3821BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <201112092124.pB9LNw61073022@billy.ezwind.net>

The circuit from the Vectrex videogame console might be an interesting
option. It was based on the 6809 and so should be trivial to adapt for a
6800 machine. It uses analog circuits to draw lines: you set up the
initial x and y values, select the final x and y and let the circuit
interpolate between the two while the processor has time to do other
things.

The schematics are on pages 33 to 48 (and is explained in earlier pages)
of:

http://www.vectrex.nl/docs/vecman.pdf

The needed components are very cheap.

-- Jecel



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec  9 15:06:03 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:06:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net> from "Bill
 Sudbrink" at Dec 8, 11 07:47:31 pm
Message-ID: <m1RZ7dz-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> Hi All,
> 
> I'm thinking of building a "somewhat vintage" two-channel DAC board,
> intended to drive an oscilloscope as a vector display.  I'm just considering
> parts now, unless someone has a really good design already set to build.
> By "somewhat vintage" what I mean is that I don't want to just drop in
> a modern "super chip" that will have ten (or more) times the power of the
> intended host computer which, by the way, is an SWTPc 6800.  I figure the
> board will have some 8-bit processor on it.  I'm leaning towards a Z-80.
> It will have an EPROM, some scratch static RAM, some glue logic to manage
> the communication with the SS-30 bus... and this is where I get fuzzy... a
> 1Kx8 dual ported static RAM and two DACs.  These last two elements (the
> dual ported SRAM and the DACs) are where I don't have any experience.  A
> little googling has led me to the IDT7130 for the dual ported SRAM and the
> DAC0830 for the DACs.  Does anybody in cctalk land have experience with
> either or both of these chips?  I have a source for the DAC0830, but I don't
> have a source for the IDT7130 yet.  The basic idea of the design is for the
> 6800 to write a vertex list into the dual ported SRAM which the Z-80 then
> reads and pushes to the DACs.  I'm hoping I can just hang these chips off of
> the Z-80 address and data busses like the RAM and EPROM but I need to do
> some more reading of the spec sheets.
> 
> Any help greatly appreciated,

OK, some thoughts...

You first need to decide how you're going to produce the vectors It's 
obviously importnat that not only do the 2 DAC output voltages get to the 
right values (that is, the vector ends i nthe right place), but also that 
they get there along a 'straight line' from where they were. There are 2 
basic ways of doing this, the older one (which has a lower transistor 
count, but is a right pain to get working) is to do it in the analogue 
circuirty, that is the DACs 'jump' to the new valuse, the analogue 
circuitry then genreates the appropariate ramnps to mvoe the beam), the 
other is to do it digitally, calcualting stairsteps along the vector, 
moving the DAC ouptus one step at a time, and using analogue circuitry to 
smooth the result.

Unless there are good reasons not to, I would recomend the latter 
approach. 

You can porduce the stairsteps eitehr using simple logic ICs (take a look 
at things like the DEC VT11 system) or using a microprocessor. The latter 
is probably easier. Jaut about any processor would be fine, I see no 
reason not to use a Z80

Somethign to be acaefule of is the relative speed of drawing differnt 
length vectotrs. If the beam moves more slowly on some lines than on 
otehrs, the former will appaer brighter on the screen.Try to keep drawing 
speed constant.

There are then 2 other parts to the project. The first is the DACs 
themselves. I think you want more than 8 birs of resulution -- 12 bits 
would seem to be sensibe (12 bit DACs are not that expensive now). Try to 
get double-buffered DACs, which allow you to load the input regsters from 
the processor and then later transfer that registers's contents to the 
DAC iteself. The advantage of that is the processor can output the 4 values 
(high and low parts of X and Y) and then update both dacs simultaneously. 
Without that, you might get little glitches on the display.

The otehr part is communication to the host. You have suggested dual-port 
RAM, which is certianly oen way to do it. I would suggest looking at FIFO 
buffers (each side cna write to a FIFO which si read by the other side. 
Of even just a pair of ports with handshake flags. SOemthing like this : 

                        '374
                      -----------
              8      |           |        8
Data Bus 1 ---/------| D       Q |--------/--------Data Bus 2
                     |           |
                     | Clk   OE  |
                      -----------  
                       |      o 
  WrStb/------+--------+      |  
              |            +--+-----------+----RdStb/ 
              |            |              |
              |            o              |
              |        ---------          +--|\
              |       |    R    |            | >o---- Ready Flag
              |  +5V--|D       Q|o-----------|/
              |       |         |            '00
              +-------|>        |      
                      |         |  
                       ---------
                         E.g part of '74                 


The ready flag shoud lbe readable by an input port on each processor. The 
ideea is the processor 1 can write to the '374 latch, when it does so, it 
sets the D-type at the bottom, maingign the ready flag line go high. 
Processor 2 can detect this, it will then read from the '374, clearing 
the D-type and briinging the ready flag low again. Processor 1 can 
monitor the flag line too to see when processor 2 has read the data. The 
NAND means that the ready flag will remain high while proecessor 2 is 
reading (and thus asserting the reset line to the D-type) so proecessor 1 
doesn't try to writ at this thime (when it couldn't set the D-type). 

Take a look at the hP120 schematics to see how a pair of Z80z can 
communicate using this sort of circuitry.

-tony


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec  9 15:44:43 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 14:44:43 -0700
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <201112092124.pB9LNw61073022@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>,
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com> <BLU145-W229E1AC180B7C5EA4C3821BAB90@phx.gbl>
 <201112092124.pB9LNw61073022@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <E1RZ8FH-0002gT-7F@shell.xmission.com>


In article <201112092124.pB9LNw61073022 at billy.ezwind.net>,
    "Jecel Assumpcao Jr." <jecel at merlintec.com> writes:

> The circuit from the Vectrex videogame console might be an interesting
> option. It was based on the 6809 and so should be trivial to adapt for a
> 6800 machine. It uses analog circuits to draw lines: you set up the
> initial x and y values, select the final x and y and let the circuit
> interpolate between the two while the processor has time to do other
> things.

The Tektronix 401x terminals also have a similar set of analog
circuitry driven by TTL combinatorial logic that handles decoding the
escape codes.  Schematics are on bitsavers.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec  9 15:15:24 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 21:15:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Dec 8,
 11 05:43:55 pm
Message-ID: <m1RZ7mx-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/8/11 5:27 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> >  too expensive
> 
> typical here.
> 
> glad to see your time is worthless.

That's the sort of idiotic comment that's typical here too.  

The origianl suggestion of this product was entirely reasoanble, but Bill 
decided he doesn't wnat to use it. Fine, that's his choice. I don;'t 
see why that deserves a flame. 

For most people here, this is a hobby. I am quite sure that Bill is 
running his SWTP 6800 as a hobby, I can't believe he is running a 
business using such a machine. 

A hobby is somethign you do because you enjoy doing it. Personally I
enjoy designing and building circuitry. I susepct that Bill is similar.
We'd rather use out braisn than our wallets :-) As for time being
'wrothless', if I'm not building ciorcuitry, or repairing classic
computers, or any of the other things I enjoy doing, what would I be
doing? Watching TV? I know which is a bigger waste of time! FWIW, there 
are plenty of other hobbys that I don't take part in becasue I don't 
enjoy them, but I am not going to tell those that do that they must think 
their time is worthless. How they decided to spend their free time is 
entirely thier business.

I've don't know much abotu the SWTP6800, I don't think I've ever seen 
one. But from what I've read, it meets any reasonalbe defintion of 
'classic computer'. Bill wants ot make a perpipehral for his classic 
computer. That would seem to be totally on-topic for this list. 

-tony


From pontus at update.uu.se  Fri Dec  9 15:48:22 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 22:48:22 +0100
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <201112092116.pB9LG9dq072851@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112092116.pB9LG9dq072851@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EE28226.1070605@update.uu.se>

Hi.

I'm afraid that I have been unable to get a hold of the owners and by 
now it is probably to late.

I can comfort you with that there was nothing terribly unusual there.

Kind regards,
Pontus.

On 12/09/2011 10:15 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote:
> Hi,
> does anyone consider going for these already?
> I can offer a home for (also just some of) that stuff in southern Germany if nobody else does, but unfortunately I can not assist with collecting and shipping right now.
> Anybody able to do a store&forward please contact me. Expenses within reason will be covered.
> Save The VAXen (...and their ilk)!
> Yours sincerely,
> Arno.
> -----Original Message:-----
> Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
> Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 23:50:56 +0100
> From: Pontus<pontus at update.uu.se>
> Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>
> Hi
>
> If you live close to Gothenburg and can act within a few days I know of
> some medium sized alpha and small vax machines available for pickup.
> VT100 and VT520 terminals also.
>
> Contact me offlist.
>
> Regards,
> Pontus.
>
> Arno Kletzander
> ...sent from HTC Magician PDA
>



From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com  Fri Dec  9 16:24:17 2011
From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt)
Date: Fri, 9 Dec 2011 22:24:17 -0000
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <4EE28226.1070605@update.uu.se>
References: <201112092116.pB9LG9dq072851@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE28226.1070605@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <06f901ccb6c1$4b8ce510$e2a6af30$@ntlworld.com>

I would count a VT100 as unusual because they seem quite hard to find (at
least for me they are).

Regards

Rob

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
> Sent: 09 December 2011 21:48
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
> 
> Hi.
> 
> I'm afraid that I have been unable to get a hold of the owners and by now
it is
> probably to late.
> 
> I can comfort you with that there was nothing terribly unusual there.
> 
> Kind regards,
> Pontus.
> 
> On 12/09/2011 10:15 PM, Arno Kletzander wrote:
> > Hi,
> > does anyone consider going for these already?
> > I can offer a home for (also just some of) that stuff in southern
Germany if
> nobody else does, but unfortunately I can not assist with collecting and
> shipping right now.
> > Anybody able to do a store&forward please contact me. Expenses within
> reason will be covered.
> > Save The VAXen (...and their ilk)!
> > Yours sincerely,
> > Arno.
> > -----Original Message:-----
> > Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
> > Date: Sat, 03 Dec 2011 23:50:56 +0100
> > From: Pontus<pontus at update.uu.se>
> > Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> > <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> > To: cctalk<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >
> > Hi
> >
> > If you live close to Gothenburg and can act within a few days I know
> > of some medium sized alpha and small vax machines available for pickup.
> > VT100 and VT520 terminals also.
> >
> > Contact me offlist.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Pontus.
> >
> > Arno Kletzander
> > ...sent from HTC Magician PDA
> >



From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec  9 17:38:56 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 16:38:56 -0700
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <06f901ccb6c1$4b8ce510$e2a6af30$@ntlworld.com>
References: <201112092116.pB9LG9dq072851@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE28226.1070605@update.uu.se>
 <06f901ccb6c1$4b8ce510$e2a6af30$@ntlworld.com>
Message-ID: <E1RZA1o-00029g-QE@shell.xmission.com>


In article <06f901ccb6c1$4b8ce510$e2a6af30$@ntlworld.com>,
    "Rob Jarratt" <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> writes:

> I would count a VT100 as unusual because they seem quite hard to find (at
> least for me they are).

In the US they aren't yet "hard to find", but are becoming scarcer.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Fri Dec  9 18:02:14 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 00:02:14 +0000
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE2A186.30002@philpem.me.uk>

On 09/12/11 02:46, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Well, if you want "vintage" (and I assume you do) there was at least
> one such project in an old issue of Byte or Kilobaud (IIRC).

There was one in Popular Electronics way-back-when. The "Scopewriter".

-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From jonas at otter.se  Fri Dec  9 14:35:18 2011
From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter)
Date: Fri, 09 Dec 2011 21:35:18 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -,	Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1323453609.6861.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1323453609.6861.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EE27106.3000203@otter.se>


The bigi difference being that unix wildcards are complicated for a
reason - -tjhey let you do poweful things. Predicitve text just gets in
the way! In any case, you don't_have_  to use wildcards in unix (you can
always type the neames explicitly). On the other hand, I've not found a
way to avoid this darn predictive text.

-tony


Options -> Dictionary -> Dictionary off
should do the trick

/Jonas


From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Sat Dec 10 07:06:19 2011
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:06:19 +0100
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
Message-ID: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>

The collective wisdom of this list should have no problem identifying this ?c

ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/ibm_something.jpg

Jos


From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com  Sat Dec 10 04:26:12 2011
From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:26:12 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>

hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather sophisticated,here 
here is what I have found:
first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
*at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
*when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts 
immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
*DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors clears 
the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if this period 
internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
*ACLO should be low for 70 ms
*after there arre differences in the processors:
*the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by 
SEL1),the lsb of
the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is 
filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be 
physically in a small rom,
a register bank ,or in support circuit???
*for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a 74ls 
244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the T11),selected by 
SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the starting address in rom,the 
PSW is found at this addess +2
Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
poor as hours:-)))
I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei Vakulenko 
(vak.ru,page of projects)
You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those 
microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not have 
.
But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
startup procedure.
Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010 
BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
Thanks best regards
Alin Nierveze

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?


> HI Devin,
>
> In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on
> a testboard and applied power and clock.
> Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to
> read on those sites.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Holm
>
> Devin Monnens wrote:
>
>> Holm,
>>
>> I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
>> Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
>> these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
>>
>> http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
>> http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
>> here or maybe here:
>> http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
>> - I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
>>
>> -Devin Monnens
>>
>>
>> > ------------------------------
>> >
>> > Message: 14
>> > Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
>> > From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
>> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>> > Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
>> > Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> >
>> >
>> > I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
>> > My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems to
>> > understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
>> > There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
>> > sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
>> > It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the start
>> > address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
>> > Can anyone please confirm this?
>> >
>> > BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
>> >
>> > Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
>> > support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
>> >
>> > Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
>> >
>> > Holm
>> > --
>> >      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>> >     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>> >  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>> >
>> >
>> -- 
>> Devin Monnens
>> www.deserthat.com
>>
>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>
> -- 
>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> 



From aaronvaldes at rogers.com  Sat Dec 10 07:19:28 2011
From: aaronvaldes at rogers.com (Aaron Valdes)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:19:28 -0500
Subject: Docbook for Altair Manuals
Message-ID: <1323523168.3042.4.camel@debian2011>


Hello

I was just messing around with Docbook to make some documentation.  
I was also in search of Paul Allen's documentation from his Altair Basic
days.  Is it alright if I take the content from the manuals on your site
and put them in the Docbook format?

Aaron




From spedraja at ono.com  Sat Dec 10 08:05:58 2011
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:05:58 +0100
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
References: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8X0K31fHLdvKxA8Nu0885a8s2tX7QWDOpvohtuj61XKQ@mail.gmail.com>

The suitcase makes me think in some kind of testing device for use of IBM
technicians. But I didn't see one like this in all my time in the Mainframe
division of my enterprise.

SPc.

2011/12/10 Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch>

> The collective wisdom of this list should have no problem identifying this
> ?c
>
> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/**ibm_something.jpg<ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/ibm_something.jpg>
>
> Jos
>


From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sat Dec 10 08:55:59 2011
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:55:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
References: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112100950330.2972@cpumagic.137clearview.org>

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote:

> The collective wisdom of this list should have no problem identifying this ?c
>
> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/ibm_something.jpg

    Looks like a 901X-002 Maintenance Device, for testing units such as a 
3380 DASD.  I have one, but no floppy and no documentation.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 10:59:48 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:59:48 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>
> ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character, an
> asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about that?

What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
things like:

REN *.log *.old

... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
work on Unix/Linux.

In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
were and remain integral to DOS-based & Windows-based systems - i.e.
about 95% of the machines I support.

> ?Regexps aren't quite that simple, but I have a hard time believing anyone
> couldn't get the general idea after maybe ten minutes. ?If you want to learn
> that stuff, contact me offlist and I'll be happy to help.

I've been bending my brain against it since 1988. I doubt it's going
to stick now!

TBH, after 23y of supporting PCs, I am heartily sick of it and want
out. I have learned more OSs, more apps, more command-line interfaces
and GUIs and network protocols and so on than I can even enumerate any
more, and all but 2 of them are now completely obsolete and will never
earn me a penny again.

Windows knowledge has to be updated every few years as MICROS~1 change
everything, and I don't really like Windows any more anyway, even if I
know it better than anything else.

Unix knowledge helps me out on Linux but I am a bit of a Unix-hater
really, at heart, and I have never managed to truly master shell or C
or Perl or regexps or any of the core Unix toolkit. Linux has fixed
and improved lots of things, but it's still the same ugly, hostile old
system underneath.

OSs I really /liked/ at some time or for some reason included Acorn
RISC OS, BeOS, classic MacOS, OS/2, Psion EPOC, NewtonOS and Novell
Netware 2 and 3. And VMS, I suppose, but I only ever scratched the
surface. And all of them had lovely aspects that I cherished but also
terrible *terrible* problems and weaknesses as well.

All are essentially dead and gone now.

If I am lucky and I can find my way into it, I think I could be a good
technical author - explaining complex stuff to non-experts is a
speciality of mine and I've been writing professional for 16Y so I am
getting something right. However, 3Y of job applications has got me
precisely nowhere - not even an interview - so clearly journalistic
experience counts for nothing.

TBH I think it would be extremely dull, but it looks lucrative!

My current plan is to train as a TEFL teacher and spend a few years
roaming the world, learning new languages and living in exotic places.
After that, who  knows?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From IanK at vulcan.com  Sat Dec 10 11:24:33 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:24:33 +0000
Subject: Bookstores and computer books (was Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <4EDB1E32.9070900@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <CB08D373.9B4E%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/3/11 11:16 PM, "Charlie Carothers" <csquared3 at tx.rr.com> wrote:

>On 12/3/2011 3:54 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>>> Right -- you should be able to find it in used bookstores where you
>>>>are.
>>>>
>>>> ...they still exist, right? :/
>>>>
>>>
>>> Used bookstores NEVER carry computer stuff, too out of date quickly.
>>> Nor do libraries.
>>[snip\
>Heh, yes my thoughts went immediately to Half-Price Books here in
>Dallas.  The big one on Northwest Highway especially has many shelves of
>computer related books, though I'm not so sure about vintage ones.  I
>was not going to mention it though as I don't know that Half-Price Books
>even covers the whole of the USA much less any other countries.  I
>somehow doubt it.  While I do have that advantage, on the other hand I'm
>very unlikely to find e.g. a Beeb at a garage sale. :-(
>--

We have Half-Price Books here in Seattle, and yes, they do have computer
books, but I've never found anything I had to have. They tend to be too
*new* for my taste, dwelling on mid- to late-era PC topics.  But this
reminds me of a story I have to tell....

I was in a used bookstore in Port Townsend, a little fishing/boating town
in northwest Washington State.  It wasn't part of a chain, and the owners
ran it.  It's one of those places full of the sort of books that always
bring to mind the word, 'tome.'  Dark bindings fill shelves, and it almost
seems more like a museum than a place of retail sales.

I was wandering through the aisles and perusing the shelves - just because
it's a fun thing to do, not looking for anything in particular - when I
noticed a thin white volume between the Tomes.  It was 'Threaded
Interpretive Languages: Their Design and Implementation', published by
Byte Press once upon a time, and only once - long out of print.  I'd been
looking for it on and off for years, never found it on eBay, and there it
was!  ISTR it was ten bucks or so.

I like bookstores.  -- Ian

PS: since then I've discovered ABEbooks - and I see they have several
copies listed.  Oh well, I had fun finding it my way.  




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 11:29:11 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:29:11 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <73E1D176-4B83-48DA-83F6-136225373E7A@gmail.com>

On Dec 10, 2011, at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
> things like:
> 
> REN *.log *.old
> 
> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
> work on Unix/Linux.
> 
> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
> were and remain integral to DOS-based & Windows-based systems - i.e.
> about 95% of the machines I support.

"Poorly" is in the eye of the beholder; I tend to assume that the wildcard is just a literal substitution.  Unix doesn't support a many-to-many reassignment for "mv" (I suppose you could call that a deficit), so the wildcard wouldn't do anything useful in any case.

> My current plan is to train as a TEFL teacher and spend a few years
> roaming the world, learning new languages and living in exotic places.
> After that, who  knows?

Always sounded like a nice boat ticket to exotic places to me.  It's either that or the Navy, where you have to point guns at the exotic places, which wouldn't have sat well with me.


- Dave




From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 11:45:21 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:45:21 +0000
Subject: Fwd: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <73E1D176-4B83-48DA-83F6-136225373E7A@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <73E1D176-4B83-48DA-83F6-136225373E7A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF6a1k=nRS+04=+crN2KODC-HL_HEqox+PA0Xf5FFxzZg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 December 2011 17:29, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 10, 2011, at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>> things like:
>>
>> REN *.log *.old
>>
>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>
>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>> were and remain integral to DOS-based & Windows-based systems - i.e.
>> about 95% of the machines I support.
>
> "Poorly" is in the eye of the beholder; I tend to assume that the wildcard is just a literal substitution. ?Unix doesn't support a many-to-many reassignment for "mv" (I suppose you could call that a deficit), so the wildcard wouldn't do anything useful in any case.

Well, quite. In general, stuff that I actually want to do, which I did
routinely on CP/M and VMS and PC DOS/MS-DOS/DR-DOS and OS/2 and
$WINDOWS just doesn't work on *Nix, or worse still, it does something
weird which is generally disastrous.

Unix aficionadi generally at this point respond by telling me that [a]
I am clearly deeply retarded and [b] but that they can do

^ wibble !!!$<<ptang %%$&whoops_ _[[fling$42]] #{?~~} > kapow

which takes the all the logfiles of something I've never heard of in
over 2 decades in IT, finds the entries from the Thursday before the
last Easter which fell the week before a full moon, extracts all
French-speaking visitors with brown eyes, and builds a concordance of
the proper nouns they searched for in the sort order of early
Mongolian tomb script.

They then proclaim that this clearly makes shell far superior and
express bewilderment that I don't ever want to do this, but that I do
want to bulk-rename files, because that's clearly weird and obscure
and never happens.

>> My current plan is to train as a TEFL teacher and spend a few years
>> roaming the world, learning new languages and living in exotic places.
>> After that, who ?knows?
>
> Always sounded like a nice boat ticket to exotic places to me. ?It's either that or the Navy, where you have to point guns at the exotic places, which wouldn't have sat well with me.

Same here!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Dec 10 11:55:55 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:55:55 -0800
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112100950330.2972@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
References: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112100950330.2972@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
Message-ID: <4EE39D2B.4060405@jwsss.com>

The floppies and documentation go with the controllers / dasd units, not 
the suitcase.

buy a 3380 / 3880 / 3370 and you'll have one.

also there is a tape drive I think which takes the unit.

I think the document you use is the MLM if memory serves.  there is a 
ladder diagram thru the document that you follow that should lead you to 
whatever conclusion you need if you are diagnosing a problem.

Jim

On 12/10/2011 6:55 AM, Mike Loewen wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011, Jos Dreesen wrote:
>
>> The collective wisdom of this list should have no problem identifying 
>> this ?c
>>
>> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/ibm_something.jpg
>
>    Looks like a 901X-002 Maintenance Device, for testing units such as 
> a 3380 DASD.  I have one, but no floppy and no documentation.
>
>
> Mike Loewen                mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
> Old Technology          http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
>
>


From chrise at pobox.com  Sat Dec 10 12:09:43 2011
From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:09:43 -0600
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <m1RZ7mx-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <4EE167DB.8050508@bitsavers.org> <m1RZ7mx-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111210180943.GE27131@n0jcf.net>

I am interested in this thread but after two days, I still have not
seen the original posting or any of these follow-ups.  I only see Tony's
response to what others have apparently posted.   Why does much of the
traffic on this list come out in non-sequential order or not at all?

Chris

On Friday (12/09/2011 at 09:15PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote:
> > 
> > On 12/8/11 5:27 PM, Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> > >  too expensive
> > 
> > typical here.
> > 
> > glad to see your time is worthless.
> 
> That's the sort of idiotic comment that's typical here too.  
> 
> The origianl suggestion of this product was entirely reasoanble, but Bill 
> decided he doesn't wnat to use it. Fine, that's his choice. I don;'t 
> see why that deserves a flame. 
> 
> For most people here, this is a hobby. I am quite sure that Bill is 
> running his SWTP 6800 as a hobby, I can't believe he is running a 
> business using such a machine. 
> 
> A hobby is somethign you do because you enjoy doing it. Personally I
> enjoy designing and building circuitry. I susepct that Bill is similar.
> We'd rather use out braisn than our wallets :-) As for time being
> 'wrothless', if I'm not building ciorcuitry, or repairing classic
> computers, or any of the other things I enjoy doing, what would I be
> doing? Watching TV? I know which is a bigger waste of time! FWIW, there 
> are plenty of other hobbys that I don't take part in becasue I don't 
> enjoy them, but I am not going to tell those that do that they must think 
> their time is worthless. How they decided to spend their free time is 
> entirely thier business.
> 
> I've don't know much abotu the SWTP6800, I don't think I've ever seen 
> one. But from what I've read, it meets any reasonalbe defintion of 
> 'classic computer'. Bill wants ot make a perpipehral for his classic 
> computer. That would seem to be totally on-topic for this list. 
> 
> -tony

-- 
Chris Elmquist



From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 12:50:04 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 12:50:04 -0600
Subject: Any documentation / schematics for STEbus interfaces
In-Reply-To: <CAMOU0xbUMpzyFQk_DyGWC_u4GAZxR2aGMvHJL=e+asQ6SrOk-A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMOU0xbUMpzyFQk_DyGWC_u4GAZxR2aGMvHJL=e+asQ6SrOk-A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE3A9DC.10107@gmail.com>

Ralph H wrote:
> This 1980s-era bus supported multiple CPUs, and 20 bits of address space.
> It was also known as IEEE-1000 (until that standard was withdrawn), and
> used the DIN 41612 connector
> common to VMEbus systems of that time.
> 
> I'm trying to find details on interface circuits, schematics for old
> boards, etc.

I'd be interested in hearing about what folk have, too - I've got a few 
STE-bus boards (along with backplanes and enclosures) which came from 
Control Universal, and it'd be nice to make them "do something" one day; 
ISTR I have a few CPU boards which use various types of CPU, but I'm a bit 
light on peripheral controllers. I'm rather partial to vintage multi-card 
backplane-based systems :-)

cheers

Jules



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat Dec 10 12:51:47 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:51:47 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:59:48 +0000
Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
> command.
That's The Unix Paradigm:
Every part does only one thing.
It does this thing well, but nothing else. 

In the DOS way of wildcard expansion every command has to do the work
of expansion itself. You can mitigate this by using a library, but
still, every command has to do the work again, over and over. Even
worse when the commans don't use a common library, wildcard expansion
may (subtly) differ from command to command. When you wane use some
other, more powerfull wildecard syntax you have to rebuild all commands.

On Unix the commands are liberated from the wildcard expansion duties.
It is put into one single place: The shell. Wildcard expansion is easy
to change - just change the shell. You can even use more powerfull
forms of "wildcard expansion" like "$(find . -name '*.txt')"...

BTW: "REN *.log *.old" in /bin/ksh is just:
for a in *.log ; do mv $a ${a%.log}.old ; done
;-)
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 13:23:54 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:23:54 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 December 2011 18:51, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:59:48 +0000
> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>> command.
> That's The Unix Paradigm:
> Every part does only one thing.
> It does this thing well, but nothing else.
>
> In the DOS way of wildcard expansion every command has to do the work
> of expansion itself. You can mitigate this by using a library, but
> still, every command has to do the work again, over and over. Even
> worse when the commans don't use a common library, wildcard expansion
> may (subtly) differ from command to command. When you wane use some
> other, more powerfull wildecard syntax you have to rebuild all commands.
>
> On Unix the commands are liberated from the wildcard expansion duties.
> It is put into one single place: The shell. Wildcard expansion is easy
> to change - just change the shell. You can even use more powerfull
> forms of "wildcard expansion" like "$(find . -name '*.txt')"...

Yes, I understand this. I understand the arguments for it, too. But
*for me* it actually results in a less-usable tool that does not do
what I want, although it can do all manner of wonderful things that I
don't want.

> BTW: "REN *.log *.old" in /bin/ksh is just:
> for a in *.log ; do mv $a ${a%.log}.old ; done
> ;-)

O_o

I think writing a small program to do what would take a single command
on almost any other CLI OS I have ever used illustrates my point
rather well...!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 10 14:01:59 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:01:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <201112102001.PAA04990@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> BTW: "REN *.log *.old" in /bin/ksh is just:
> for a in *.log ; do mv $a ${a%.log}.old ; done

Or many other sh-family shells.

If none of the files have ".log" in any other place in their names,
there's a program I wrote long ago that could do this with

MV .log .old *.log

I don't think it's available for fetch anywhere at the moment.  I
really should clean it (and the related CP and LN programs) up,
document them, and release them.  (In the meantime, I'll be happy to
mail out copies to them as wants.)

					Mouse


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Sat Dec 10 14:05:27 2011
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:05:27 +1300
Subject: can anyone identify this RCA CDP1802 device?
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CCA5F13AD3AE4E3C90DC6857DC0FACA5@massey.ac.nz>

Hi,

Can anyone shed light on this RCA CDP1802 device I picked up at a junk sale? 
I?ve described it (with photos) on the Vintage Computer Forums here:

http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?28331-Unknown-device

Chuck?s made a comment already.

A kit based on the ELF maybe?  But what for specifically?  The circuit board 
is well labeled, and has a number of connectors to external devices as you 
can see.  The only thing that hints at a manufacture is ?Lang 1984? and the 
small word ?Commander? at the very bottom in the centre.  I don?t know if it 
was made here in New Zealand or elsewhere?

The machine actually seems to work, although I?ve noticed a couple of loose 
wires underneath one of the keypads.

Terry (Tez)



From fjkraan at xs4all.nl  Sat Dec 10 14:38:50 2011
From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 21:38:50 +0100
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1323540010.18996.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1323540010.18996.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EE3C35A.5090703@xs4all.nl>

On 2011-12-10 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
> Re: IBM something, what is it ?

A programming device for some kind of IBM network. You put the floppy
into the device only about half way for it to boot and then then you can
configure the network with the hand-held terminal part. I have seen one
working, but without the appropriate network.

Fred Jan


From jws at jwsss.com  Sat Dec 10 15:06:19 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:06:19 -0800
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE3C35A.5090703@xs4all.nl>
References: <mailman.3.1323540010.18996.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <4EE3C35A.5090703@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <4EE3C9CB.8060606@jwsss.com>



On 12/10/2011 12:38 PM, Fred Jan Kraan wrote:
> On 2011-12-10 19:00, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote:
>> Re: IBM something, what is it ?
> A programming device for some kind of IBM network. You put the floppy
> into the device only about half way for it to boot and then then you can
> configure the network with the hand-held terminal part. I have seen one
> working, but without the appropriate network.
>
Nothing to do with any network, but for controllers.  I had mainframes 
that used them and have two of these myself.  There is a controller in 
this model which talks to the microcode in the controller and allows you 
to change options as well as displaying diagnostic codes from the 
controller.

I have not see it used with any of the comms controllers, but most of 
those have control panels that I have seen, such as the 3705, etc, and 
are more complex processors than would be programmed with this.  Also 
3174's have their own diskettes and controls, and program thru attached 
terminals.

This device is early 80's and for sure on 3370's and 3380's technology 
when they were in use.  I don't know if any of the earlier 3330's or 
3350's would use this vintage of a programmer.  The handheld control was 
in a later unit.  I seem to recall one without that feature added, but 
not sure of when.
> Fred Jan
>
>


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat Dec 10 15:45:07 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:45:07 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:23:54 +0000
Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> I think writing a small program to do what would take a single command
> on almost any other CLI OS I have ever used illustrates my point
> rather well...!
Yes. And this is no surprise, given that Unix is an OS programmed by
programmes who wanted a nice environment for programming. :-)

BTW: A friend of mine knows all and everything about Windows. But he
simply can't wrap his mind around Unix. Just like you.
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 10 17:14:06 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:14:06 +1100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112102001.PAA04990@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <201112102001.PAA04990@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE3E7BE.40002@telegraphics.com.au>

To momentarily return to topic: The books are no longer available (& 
nobody spoke up for them).

Repliers to other messages: please change subject appropriately :)

--Toby



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 10 17:17:42 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:17:42 +1100
Subject: Bookstores and computer books (was Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CB08D373.9B4E%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <CB08D373.9B4E%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <4EE3E896.8090803@telegraphics.com.au>

On 11/12/11 4:24 AM, Ian King wrote:
> ...
> I was wandering through the aisles and perusing the shelves - just because
> it's a fun thing to do, not looking for anything in particular - when I
> noticed a thin white volume between the Tomes.  It was 'Threaded
> Interpretive Languages: Their Design and Implementation', published by
> Byte Press once upon a time, and only once - long out of print.  I'd been
> looking for it on and off for years, never found it on eBay, and there it
> was!  ISTR it was ten bucks or so.
>
> I like bookstores.  -- Ian
>
> PS: since then I've discovered ABEbooks - and I see they have several
> copies listed.  Oh well, I had fun finding it my way.

I don't think there has been any "rare, you won't find it" book I've 
been interested in, that *wasn't* purchasable on ABE Books for a 
reasonable price.

--Toby


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 10 17:22:58 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:22:58 +1100
Subject: Globbing/extensions/regexps just ain't hard - was Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE3E9D2.1080006@telegraphics.com.au>

On 11/12/11 3:59 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>>
>>   UNIX shell wildcards?  A question mark matches any single character, an
>> asterisk matches any number of any characters.  What's so tough about that?
>
> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
> things like:
>
> REN *.log *.old
>
> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
> work on Unix/Linux.
>
> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
> were and remain integral to DOS-based&  Windows-based systems - i.e.
> about 95% of the machines I support.

Actually, the reverse is more true. Unix just doesn't treat file 
extensions specially, which works very well, and is in keeping with 
other successful and simplifying ideas in Unix. The idea of globbing or 
regular expressions to select files fits this perfectly, since a 
filename is a string, not some weird composite object.

>
>>   Regexps aren't quite that simple, but I have a hard time believing anyone
>> couldn't get the general idea after maybe ten minutes.  If you want to learn
>> that stuff, contact me offlist and I'll be happy to help.
>
> I've been bending my brain against it since 1988. I doubt it's going
> to stick now!

Just think of them as a picture of what you want to match. That's all 
declarative syntaxes are.

>
> TBH, after 23y of supporting PCs, I am heartily sick of it and want
> out. I have learned more OSs, more apps, more command-line interfaces
> and GUIs and network protocols and so on than I can even enumerate any
> more, and all but 2 of them are now completely obsolete and will never
> earn me a penny again.
>
> Windows knowledge has to be updated every few years as MICROS~1 change
> everything, and I don't really like Windows any more anyway, even if I
> know it better than anything else.
>
> Unix knowledge helps me out on Linux but I am a bit of a Unix-hater
> really, at heart, and I have never managed to truly master shell or C
> or Perl or regexps or any of the core Unix toolkit. Linux has fixed
> and improved lots of things, but it's still the same ugly, hostile old
> system underneath.
>
> OSs I really /liked/ at some time or for some reason included Acorn
> RISC OS, BeOS, classic MacOS, OS/2, Psion EPOC, NewtonOS and Novell
> Netware 2 and 3. And VMS, I suppose, but I only ever scratched the
> surface. And all of them had lovely aspects that I cherished but also
> terrible *terrible* problems and weaknesses as well.
>
> All are essentially dead and gone now.

Why did you never try OS X? Power of Unix with ease of a modern GUI.

>
> If I am lucky and I can find my way into it, I think I could be a good
> technical author - explaining complex stuff to non-experts is a
> speciality of mine...

Which topics are you best at?

--Toby


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 10 18:10:53 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:10:53 -0500
Subject: Fwd: Desk-fax interest ?
In-Reply-To: <D7C7DC34-A114-4ACA-B535-82CCD3C92D5E@cs.ubc.ca>
References: <000301ccaaaf$6fa206b0$4ee61410$@corderoy@btinternet.com>
 <D7C7DC34-A114-4ACA-B535-82CCD3C92D5E@cs.ubc.ca>
Message-ID: <4EE3F50D.8000507@neurotica.com>

On 11/25/2011 02:36 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> Just forwarding this to the list in case there might be some interest here.
>
> These are old 1950s-era fax machines, not 1990s. Apparently they are
> similar to the ones I present here (which is why he contacted me):
> http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/deskfax/index.html

   Hey, I have one of those!  I even have docs and some paper for it. 
Neat stuff!

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 10 23:10:45 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:10:45 -0500
Subject: OT: offset printing?
Message-ID: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>


   Hey folks.  Can anyone recommend a good book (that I can find used 
via abebooks etc) that'll teach me the ins & outs of small-scale (i.e., 
sheet-fed) offset printing?  Old is fine. (I'm exploring old presses)

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Dec 10 23:39:40 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 21:39:40 -0800
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE3D19C.4363.2E5F2B8@cclist.sydex.com>

On 11 Dec 2011 at 0:10, Dave McGuire wrote:

> 
>    Hey folks.  Can anyone recommend a good book (that I can find used
> via abebooks etc) that'll teach me the ins & outs of small-scale
> (i.e., sheet-fed) offset printing?  Old is fine. (I'm exploring old
> presses)

Not exactly small-scale, but I recall that Bill Gates (he of 
"MIdnight Engineering") might know a lot about offset priting.  At 
least he made his ME subscribers suffer through blurred copy and ink 
that turned your hands black when you held his printed pages.

--Chuck


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Sat Dec 10 23:43:46 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 22:43:46 -0700
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE44312.4070306@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/10/2011 10:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
> Hey folks. Can anyone recommend a good book (that I can find used via
> abebooks etc) that'll teach me the ins & outs of small-scale (i.e.,
> sheet-fed) offset printing? Old is fine. (I'm exploring old presses)

That hobby I've heard can get fairly pricy, up there with classic computing.
A quick search at Lindsay's Books has nothing on old presses but they
may have other valuable information in repairing something or metal casting.
http://www.lindsaybks.com/

> -Dave
>
Good Luck, with your new Hobby.
Ben.



From keithvz at verizon.net  Thu Dec  8 13:08:53 2011
From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 14:08:53 -0500
Subject: semi-ot: FPGA memory arbitration methods
Message-ID: <4EE10B45.3070205@verizon.net>

I'm designing a video scan converter to connect my classic Amiga to a 
new LCD. For the journey, not the destination. Don't want to buy one off 
the shelf, etc.

I need to both read and write to my single-port freeware altera memory 
controller simultaneously(ok, not exactly at the same time) . I'm 
converting from 320x200 to 640x400, doing simple pixel doubling.

12-bit color, 4-bits per color, padded to 16-bit for ease of handling 
within the FPGA.

Write side into the memory from amiga->my converter: 1 byte every 70ns.
Read side to go from memory->LCD: 1 byte every 20ns.

Memory is 8mb, 133mhz access, 16 bits wide, wishbone memory controller 
has fixed burst size of 2.

What are some common ways of doing arbitration?

Time slots with buffering between writes? How would this be implemented?

Two-port memory controller (I can't find a free, working, easy to use 
Altera one)

Some type of synchronization method? Semaphore/Mutex concepts?

My existing setup detects horizontal sync pulse, and reads the entire 
line from DRAM -> block ram. Since I'm pixel doubling, I only need to 
read one input line for every two output lines, so I can potentially 
relax my READ times accordingly.

Any advice or recommended references would be appreciated.

My efforts are being blogged at

http://techtravels.org/?page_id=463

Thanks
Keith


From keithvz at verizon.net  Thu Dec  8 20:48:17 2011
From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan)
Date: Thu, 08 Dec 2011 21:48:17 -0500
Subject: rj45 -> wireless ->rjr5 ?
In-Reply-To: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU145-W17ACDC9B5FC9AAD6AE7C10BAB90@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EE176F1.4000100@verizon.net>

On 12/8/2011 9:25 PM, Randy Dawson wrote:
> 
> On the off chance somebody here has done this:
> 
> I have 2 wireless routers, one connects to cable and I have an
> internet connection.  Its a wifi too.
> 
> I want to pick up that wireless signal with another router, locate it
> in the other part of the house to connect a wired ethernet device.
> its as if I want a wireless adapter, but not having an output that is
> usb, but a ethernet jack.
> 
> Is this possible?
> 
> Its to avoid running a long cat 5 cable thru the house.

Randy,

If I understand your question right, yes, it's possible.

You create a wireless bridge connection between the two routers.  One
router serves up the DHCP information, performs the nat, etc.  The other
router functions basically as a traditional access point, providing
wired -> wireless connectivity.

Go look for "bridge mode" in your user manual.  If it's a relatively
full featured consumer product made by a popular company (cisco/linksys,
dlink, etc) then it's probably supported.

Keith


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Dec 11 01:22:06 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 02:22:06 -0500
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE44312.4070306@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com> <4EE44312.4070306@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <4EE45A1E.4070505@neurotica.com>

On 12/11/2011 12:43 AM, ben wrote:
>> Hey folks. Can anyone recommend a good book (that I can find used via
>> abebooks etc) that'll teach me the ins & outs of small-scale (i.e.,
>> sheet-fed) offset printing? Old is fine. (I'm exploring old presses)
>
> That hobby I've heard can get fairly pricy, up there with classic
> computing.
> A quick search at Lindsay's Books has nothing on old presses but they
> may have other valuable information in repairing something or metal
> casting.
> http://www.lindsaybks.com/

   Ahh, I'm familiar with them, I have some of their electronic-related 
books (Instruments of Amplification, Voice of the Crystal, etc) and 
should've assumed they'd cover this sort of material as well.

   Note that I'm not talking about metal type ("letterpress") printing, 
something I already have a bit of experience with.  I'm now looking at 
offset printing, which is a whole different animal.  That isn't quite so 
pricey on a hobbyist level, since it's dealing with equipment that 
production print shops often have a very hard time getting rid of.

> Good Luck, with your new Hobby.

   Thanks!  I've been peripherally associated with it for much of my 
life (the "other end" of the chain, the source material, typography, 
etc) and have always had a bit of a fetish for it.  There's a lot of 
very cheap hardware available in my new area (western PA) so I figure 
it's time to look into it a bit.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Dec 11 01:24:56 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 02:24:56 -0500
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE3D19C.4363.2E5F2B8@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
 <4EE3D19C.4363.2E5F2B8@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE45AC8.9050508@neurotica.com>

On 12/11/2011 12:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Not exactly small-scale, but I recall that Bill Gates (he of
> "MIdnight Engineering") might know a lot about offset priting.  At
> least he made his ME subscribers suffer through blurred copy and ink
> that turned your hands black when you held his printed pages.

   Oh really??  He printed it himself?

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From jws at jwsss.com  Sun Dec 11 02:15:47 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 00:15:47 -0800
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE45AC8.9050508@neurotica.com>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
 <4EE3D19C.4363.2E5F2B8@cclist.sydex.com> <4EE45AC8.9050508@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE466B3.3060201@jwsss.com>

when he said he typed the copy and hit print he was serious.  IIRC he 
went to somewhere in Massachusetts and bought a press that was out of 
business after some light experimentation and moved it to Colorado.

I wonder what happened to him, I never heard why he actually failed to 
make the last of my subscription anyway.

The registration was off, the copy was clear on my copies, but the 
colors didn't all line up.

I never noticed a problem with the ink smearing.
Jim

On 12/10/2011 11:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/11/2011 12:39 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> Not exactly small-scale, but I recall that Bill Gates (he of
>> "MIdnight Engineering") might know a lot about offset priting.  At
>> least he made his ME subscribers suffer through blurred copy and ink
>> that turned your hands black when you held his printed pages.
>
>   Oh really??  He printed it himself?
>
>          -Dave
>


From emu at e-bbes.com  Sun Dec 11 02:37:49 2011
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:37:49 +0100
Subject: semi-ot: FPGA memory arbitration methods
In-Reply-To: <4EE10B45.3070205@verizon.net>
References: <4EE10B45.3070205@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EE46BDD.3070600@e-bbes.com>

On 2011-12-08 20:08, Keith M wrote:
> I'm designing a video scan converter to connect my classic Amiga to a
> new LCD. For the journey, not the destination. Don't want to buy one off
> the shelf, etc.
> Any advice or recommended references would be appreciated.

You should also look at application notes of attaching cameras to FPGAs.
They have the same problems, and are more common as application.

> My efforts are being blogged at
> http://techtravels.org/?page_id=463

Nice. Most of the stuff you figured out already ;-)

Cheers


From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 04:01:56 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:01:56 +0000
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CALfYgtkXhg8-eQ07ynU6NP_kZ4r7nVeudM07Mn4PPVsPiZgKVg@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps
Practical printing volumes 1&2
	J. Southward 	Printers Register 	1911

(not looked in mine for relevance as not shelved properly, loose "somewhere")	

others related search terms
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=686.2

I also have a press from a UK bank note and ticket printer Waterlow & Sons

Dave Caroline


From sb at thebackend.de  Sun Dec 11 06:38:32 2011
From: sb at thebackend.de (Sebastian Brueckner)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:38:32 +0100
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EE4A448.1070402@thebackend.de>

Am 09.12.2011 04:18, schrieb Eric Smith:
> Bill Sudbrink wrote:
> "Make Your Next Peripheral a Real Eye Opener" by Steve Ciarcia, in the
> November 1976 Byte, with errata in the March 1977 Byte, is a vector
> display.

I was able to find the Nov 1976 Byte online but not the Mar 1977 issue. 
Does anyone have the errata scanned?

Thanks
Sebastian


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 08:23:14 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:23:14 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 December 2011 21:45, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:23:54 +0000
> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I think writing a small program to do what would take a single command
>> on almost any other CLI OS I have ever used illustrates my point
>> rather well...!
> Yes. And this is no surprise, given that Unix is an OS programmed by
> programmes who wanted a nice environment for programming. :-)

Yes, absolutely!

A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
non-programmers.

As this particular friend said to me: "it is only now that I am
starting to understand how /deeply/ bizarre some of this stuff must
seem to you, as a non-programmer!"

> BTW: A friend of mine knows all and everything about Windows. But he
> simply can't wrap his mind around Unix. Just like you.

:?D Hurrah! It is not just me!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 08:32:32 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:32:32 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>

On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
> to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
> queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
> idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
> alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
> programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
> non-programmers.

Or, as the saying goes: "Unix is plenty user-friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are."

- Dave





From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Sun Dec 11 09:23:03 2011
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:23:03 +0100
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
Message-ID: <20111211152303.11920@gmx.net>

Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I'm afraid that I have been unable to get a hold of the owners and by 
> now it is probably to late.

Too bad. I know some DEC-heads from N Germany and I had hoped one of them would have made for the stuff.

> I can comfort you with that there was nothing terribly unusual there.

Anything DEC is too scarce to lose in a world dominated by PeeCees!

I had hoped for e.g. a Radiator VAX (BA23 ?VAX) to complement my VSII/GPX and perhaps some tower style Alpha hardware. Also original DEC terminals. Another time, perhaps...

So long and thanks for the heads-up,
Arno Kletzander
-- 
Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Dec 11 11:51:50 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:51:50 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <4EE4A448.1070402@thebackend.de>
References: <0eac01ccb60c$22460a20$66d21e60$@sudbrink@verizon.net>
 <4EE1060D.14449.2310F2A@cclist.sydex.com> <4EE17E14.7050906@brouhaha.com>
 <4EE4A448.1070402@thebackend.de>
Message-ID: <4EE4EDB6.3000008@brouhaha.com>

Sebastian Brueckner wrote:
 > Am 09.12.2011 04:18, schrieb Eric Smith:
 >> Bill Sudbrink wrote:
 >> "Make Your Next Peripheral a Real Eye Opener" by Steve Ciarcia, in the
 >> November 1976 Byte, with errata in the March 1977 Byte, is a vector
 >> display.

Bill didn't write that, I did.

 > I was able to find the Nov 1976 Byte online but not the
 > Mar 1977 issue. Does anyone have the errata scanned?

<p><b>Why the DACs "Don't Work"</b></p>
<p>
Author Steve Ciarcia sent our way
(via his friend Chris Morgan who stopped
by one recent Saturday) the following
correction to his article "Make Your
Next Peripheral a Real Eye Opener" on
page 78 of the November 1976 BYTE. In
the schematic of pages 84 and 85 (fig-
ure 2), we (Steve or CH at BYTE? Who
knows?) omitted notation of the nega-
tive supply pin for the MC1408-L8
digital to analog converters, IC4 and IC5.
Pin 3 of each 1408 should be wired to
the -15 V supply.
</p>



From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 11:53:31 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:53:31 +0100
Subject: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
In-Reply-To: <20111211152303.11920@gmx.net>
References: <20111211152303.11920@gmx.net>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi--vh5OW2MD1j1aKBzQ_LD5xE7b34d9Y_Jwtmz0AFqskg@mail.gmail.com>

Arno,

I can offer you Store and Forward Service if you find something in Austria
/ Southern Germany you'd like to have (offer is available to others if
desired). My collection "radius" is like yours somewhat limited too, but
for at least temporary storage I could manage that...

My second offer is (as usual) a scanning service for everything up to A3.
If you are (more or less) local and having vintage documentation available
nowhere else that you'd like to have scanned in feel free to contact me.
This is a no charge offer, as I would scan in my spare-time. I have
permanent access to production scanners with reasonable image-quality (B/W
and color).

BTW: Does anyone wants to get rid of a 9track Tape or a RL02 drive in the
Area mentioned above? I don't mind restauration-project-items as
hobby-capital is a bit limited here. My 11/23 feels a bit naked without
mass storage.

Regards,
 Wolfgang

--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/11 Arno Kletzander <Arno_1983 at gmx.de>

> Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > I'm afraid that I have been unable to get a hold of the owners and by
> > now it is probably to late.
>
> Too bad. I know some DEC-heads from N Germany and I had hoped one of them
> would have made for the stuff.
>
> > I can comfort you with that there was nothing terribly unusual there.
>
> Anything DEC is too scarce to lose in a world dominated by PeeCees!
>
> I had hoped for e.g. a Radiator VAX (BA23 ?VAX) to complement my VSII/GPX
> and perhaps some tower style Alpha hardware. Also original DEC terminals.
> Another time, perhaps...
>
> So long and thanks for the heads-up,
> Arno Kletzander
> --
> Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir
> belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de
>


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 11 12:55:33 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:55:33 -0800
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE466B3.3060201@jwsss.com>
References: <4EE43B55.9030406@neurotica.com>, <4EE45AC8.9050508@neurotica.com>,
 <4EE466B3.3060201@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4EE48C25.25202.4809D5@cclist.sydex.com>

On 11 Dec 2011 at 0:15, jim s wrote:

> I never noticed a problem with the ink smearing.

Well, it was only one issue of ME that did that--and I dropped a note 
to Bill and was sent a replacement copy.   Apparently, the uniformity 
of a press run was, er, variable?

WEG's name popped into my awareness a couple of months ago after a 
report of salmonella-tainted cantaloupe originating in Rocky Ford, CO 
hit the national news (killed about 13 people).  The town name rang a 
bell, and eventually led to WEG and his Rocky Ford Printing 
operation.

If you subscribed to ME around 1995, what you got was a blow-by-blow-
as-it-happens narrative of Bill and his Press.  I recall that he 
drafted his father into the effort.

ENTCON is still held in Denver, but Bill apparently hasn't shown his 
face at one for about 5 years.

In some ways, Bill at his best reminded me a lot of  "Mr. Tinaja"--
Don Lancaster, who was a regular contributor to ME.  (BTW, if you've 
never heard of Don, visit his website at tinaja.com--it's a treasure 
trove of stuff).

I have no idea of what Mr. Gates is doing nowadays.

--Chuck



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 11 13:10:44 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 20:10:44 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
Message-ID: <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Yes, I've found this out in the meantime by struggeling trough some russian
docs, that from the K1806VM2 for example.
I've plugged the VM2 in such a white testboard where you can build small
electronics simply by putting wires in holes. (Don't know how they are
called in english, sorry).
I've build this non adress register from 7403s, in the russian MC1201.02
CPU is such a peace of schematic, pulling A14 and A15 Low to build the
start vector and additionally A0, A1 and A2 configurable trough switches.
There is an additional command for this processor that does this non adress
request too (0020 octal if i remember correctly), placing the complete bits
in R0. Otherways the switches would make no sense. I think the ODT startupo
Code in The K1801RE2-055 is looking for those bits and is configuring the
startup procedure accordingly (ODT or boot).

I'm trying to build an simple SBC with that processor, using an universal
card and CUL wire to connect the peaces. Im using two 28C64 as ROM,
programmend with the contents of the RE2-055 support chip that I've found
somwhere in the russian web. Currently I must make an Voltage Converter for
-12V, since the old Tzschech MHB1012 Uarts that I want to use as SLUs wants
that (compatible to AY-5-1013 and thats the same as the CDP6004, but the
CDP does'nt need the -12V, has a free Pin on this place)
RAM will consist of four peaces of W24C257 Cache RAMs. The ODT wants a
kilobyte at least in the hidden system memory area where the RE2-055
resides too..

I want to get the ODT working at first, later some IDE interface, lets
see...

BTW: The K1801VM2 is documented with 10Mhz Clock, which in real world
is 5Mhz CLCO on the processor. The Processor divides that by two.
The K1806VM2 is CMOS and has a maximum clock speed of 5Mhz which would work
out to 2,5Mhz real clock.

Kind Regards,

Holm


nierveze wrote:

> hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather 
> sophisticated,here here is what I have found:
> first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
> *at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
> *when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts 
> immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
> *DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors clears 
> the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if this period 
> internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
> *ACLO should be low for 70 ms
> *after there arre differences in the processors:
> *the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by 
> SEL1),the lsb of
> the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is 
> filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be 
> physically in a small rom,
> a register bank ,or in support circuit???
> *for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a 74ls 
> 244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the T11),selected 
> by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the starting address in 
> rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2
> Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
> poor as hours:-)))
> I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei Vakulenko 
> (vak.ru,page of projects)
> You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those 
> microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
> I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
> of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not have 
> .
> But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
> startup procedure.
> Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010 
> BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
> Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
> Thanks best regards
> Alin Nierveze
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> 
> 
> >HI Devin,
> >
> >In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on
> >a testboard and applied power and clock.
> >Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to
> >read on those sites.
> >
> >Thanks,
> >
> >Holm
> >
> >Devin Monnens wrote:
> >
> >>Holm,
> >>
> >>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
> >>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
> >>these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
> >>
> >>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
> >>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
> >>here or maybe here:
> >>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
> >>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
> >>
> >>-Devin Monnens
> >>
> >>
> >>> ------------------------------
> >>>
> >>> Message: 14
> >>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
> >>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> >>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> >>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
> >>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems to
> >>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
> >>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
> >>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
> >>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the start
> >>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
> >>> Can anyone please confirm this?
> >>>
> >>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
> >>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
> >>>
> >>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
> >>>
> >>> Holm
> >>> --
> >>>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >>>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >>>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >>>
> >>>
> >>-- 
> >>Devin Monnens
> >>www.deserthat.com
> >>
> >>The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> >
> >-- 
> >     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Dec 11 13:27:42 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 14:27:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <201112111927.OAA21871@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I've plugged the VM2 in such a white testboard where you can build
> small electronics simply by putting wires in holes.  (Don't know how
> they are called in english, sorry).

In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, at least
if you're talking about the things I suspect you are.  Occasionally a
brand name gets used to refer to them.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From geoffr at zipcon.net  Sun Dec 11 14:06:59 2011
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 12:06:59 -0800
Subject: Bookstores and computer books (was Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CB08D373.9B4E%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <CB0A4D63.58776%geoffr@zipcon.net>


Powells technical bookstore in portland, or.   Nuff said :)




From geneb at deltasoft.com  Sun Dec 11 15:51:20 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 13:51:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112111351060.26197@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Sun, 11 Dec 2011, David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
>> to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
>> queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
>> idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
>> alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
>> programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
>> non-programmers.
>
> Or, as the saying goes: "Unix is plenty user-friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are."
>

\o/

;)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 15:55:47 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:55:47 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112111927.OAA21871@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112111927.OAA21871@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <29B287A2-F2FF-4B68-BA97-7D659CD5F872@gmail.com>

On Dec 11, 2011, at 2:27 PM, Mouse wrote:

>> I've plugged the VM2 in such a white testboard where you can build
>> small electronics simply by putting wires in holes.  (Don't know how
>> they are called in english, sorry).
> 
> In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, at least
> if you're talking about the things I suspect you are.  Occasionally a
> brand name gets used to refer to them.

That's what I've always heard them called.  I know they're generally considered terrible, but I've had lots of luck with them for low-speed projects (especially power supplies for tube amps; I've got one that's covered with capacitor juice from various electrolytics exploding and has some melted-out holes resulting from diodes installed backwards but still manages to work just fine).

- Dave





From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us  Sun Dec 11 16:52:18 2011
From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:52:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: IMSAI 8080 Front Panel on Ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EE39D2B.4060405@jwsss.com>
References: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112100950330.2972@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <4EE39D2B.4060405@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112111750500.18376@cpumagic.137clearview.org>


    Blatant plug:

Ebay #110793243680

    Unused IMSAI 8080 Front Panel, wired for optional Memory Protect 
switch.  The former owner was going to use this for a S100 project, but 
never got around to it.


Mike Loewen				mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology	      http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 11 15:47:35 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 21:47:35 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE45A1E.4070505@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 11,
 11 02:22:06 am
Message-ID: <m1RZrFF-000J48C@p850ug1>

>    Note that I'm not talking about metal type ("letterpress") printing, 
> something I already have a bit of experience with.  I'm now looking at 
> offset printing, which is a whole different animal.  That isn't quite so 
> pricey on a hobbyist level, since it's dealing with equipment that 
> production print shops often have a very hard time getting rid of.

As an aside (and not at all relevant to the OP), I found a couple of 
semi-techncial books on the monotype nad linotype machiens in a charity 
shop a while back. Semi-techncial meaning theu included diagrams of the 
mechanism, instructiosn for dismantling and adjusting it, etc.

On the groudns i tend to buy any technical books if the price is right, 
they came home with me... I'd better not start collecting that sort of 
machine, though, classic comptuers give me enough of a (lack of) space 
problem as it is.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 11 16:08:57 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:08:57 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 11, 11 02:23:14 pm
Message-ID: <m1RZrZy-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
> to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
> queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
> idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
> alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
> programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
> non-programmers.
> 
> As this particular friend said to me: "it is only now that I am
> starting to understand how /deeply/ bizarre some of this stuff must
> seem to you, as a non-programmer!"

I still find it bizarre that anyone would buy and use a computer and 
_not_ want to program it... Mind you, I also find it strange that people 
buy electronci devices and dont remove the covers within at most 1 hour 
of gettign them home...

> 
> > BTW: A friend of mine knows all and everything about Windows. But he
> > simply can't wrap his mind around Unix. Just like you.
> 
> :=ACD Hurrah! It is not just me!

I have the reverse proble, I find unix to be very intuitive, othercommand 
lines to be genrally OK (but not as pleasant), and GUIs to be downright 
counterintuitive... Oh well.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 11 16:47:09 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:47:09 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112111927.OAA21871@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 11, 11 02:27:42 pm
Message-ID: <m1RZsAq-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> 
> > I've plugged the VM2 in such a white testboard where you can build
> > small electronics simply by putting wires in holes.  (Don't know how
> > they are called in english, sorry).
> 
> In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, at least
> if you're talking about the things I suspect you are.  Occasionally a
> brand name gets used to refer to them.

'Eurobreadboard' being one that was commnly used over here.  i have no 
idea if they're still being made.

The other common term is 'plugblock'.

Those who've had problems due to poor contacts or stray capacitance in 
these things have various other names for them which can't be repeated on 
a familiy list ;-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 11 17:02:03 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:02:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <29B287A2-F2FF-4B68-BA97-7D659CD5F872@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Dec 11, 11 04:55:47 pm
Message-ID: <m1RZsPG-000J43C@p850ug1>

> > In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, at least
> > if you're talking about the things I suspect you are.  Occasionally a
> > brand name gets used to refer to them.
> 
> That's what I've always heard them called.  I know they're generally 
> considered terrible, but I've had lots of luck with them for low-speed 
> projects (especially power supplies for tube amps; I've got one that's 
> covered with capacitor juice from various electrolytics exploding and 
> has some melted-out holes resulting from diodes installed backwards but 
> still manages to work just fine). 

They're probaly fine if used within their limitations. That is that stray 
capacitance doesn't matter too much (and be warned it can matter even 
when the system appears to be low-speed) and if the odd poor connection 
won't cause too many problems.

That said, I don't think they save much tiem. The time taken to form 
component leads to fit into one of these breadboards, or to strip a piece 
of isulated wire to go in, is not much less than soldering the components 
to stripboard (assuming your iron is already hot). And doing the latter 
will at least eliminate poor conenctions. 

-tony


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 11 17:03:43 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 15:03:43 -0800
Subject: OT (Sort of):  Programming algorithm for PALCE devices
Message-ID: <4EE4C64F.6621.12B3E23@cclist.sydex.com>

Pardon if you've heard this before, but...

I'm looking for the programming algorithm for Lattice/AMD/Cypress old 
PALCE devices.  I've got a bucketload of them (mostly PLCC) and I'd 
like to do something with them or trash them, if no luck in the 
programming department.

I've found algorithms for the PEEL devices as well as NS type plain 
GALs, but nothing on the PALCEs.

I know that programming info is usually supplied to OEMs under a NDA, 
but the technology has passed through a sufficient number of hands 
that it's hard to believe that nobody has any information.

Note, unless it's very cheap (i.e. it costs less than thowing the 
PALCEs out) I'm not interested in another programmer, but I'm not 
opposed to tinkering a bit.

Thanks for whatever help,
--Chuck



From geoffr at zipcon.net  Sun Dec 11 17:06:55 2011
From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 15:06:55 -0800
Subject: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <4EE48C25.25202.4809D5@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CB0A778F.5879D%geoffr@zipcon.net>

On 12/11/11 10:55 AM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 11 Dec 2011 at 0:15, jim s wrote:
> 
>> I never noticed a problem with the ink smearing.
> 
> Well, it was only one issue of ME that did that--and I dropped a note
> to Bill and was sent a replacement copy.   Apparently, the uniformity
> of a press run was, er, variable?
> 
> WEG's name popped into my awareness a couple of months ago after a
> report of salmonella-tainted cantaloupe originating in Rocky Ford, CO
> hit the national news (killed about 13 people).  The town name rang a
> bell, and eventually led to WEG and his Rocky Ford Printing
> operation.
> 
> If you subscribed to ME around 1995, what you got was a blow-by-blow-
> as-it-happens narrative of Bill and his Press.  I recall that he
> drafted his father into the effort.
> 
> ENTCON is still held in Denver, but Bill apparently hasn't shown his
> face at one for about 5 years.
> 
> In some ways, Bill at his best reminded me a lot of  "Mr. Tinaja"--
> Don Lancaster, who was a regular contributor to ME.  (BTW, if you've
> never heard of Don, visit his website at tinaja.com--it's a treasure
> trove of stuff).
> 
> I have no idea of what Mr. Gates is doing nowadays.
> 
> --Chuck


If you are doing 4-color printing on a one color press then registration
will always be a problem. I trained on and ran an AB-Dick 9820 (not 100%
sure on the model number) offset press and especially the faster you ran it,
the more likely you were going to have registration issues.

Also if you were not completely accurate with the placement of your
negatives on the printing plate you could mess up your registration there
also :(




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sun Dec 11 17:25:45 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:25:45 -0500
Subject: OT (Sort of):  Programming algorithm for PALCE devices
In-Reply-To: <4EE4C64F.6621.12B3E23@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EE4C64F.6621.12B3E23@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE53BF9.4090309@neurotica.com>

On 12/11/2011 06:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Pardon if you've heard this before, but...
>
> I'm looking for the programming algorithm for Lattice/AMD/Cypress old
> PALCE devices.  I've got a bucketload of them (mostly PLCC) and I'd
> like to do something with them or trash them, if no luck in the
> programming department.
>
> I've found algorithms for the PEEL devices as well as NS type plain
> GALs, but nothing on the PALCEs.
>
> I know that programming info is usually supplied to OEMs under a NDA,
> but the technology has passed through a sufficient number of hands
> that it's hard to believe that nobody has any information.
>
> Note, unless it's very cheap (i.e. it costs less than thowing the
> PALCEs out) I'm not interested in another programmer, but I'm not
> opposed to tinkering a bit.

   I don't have the programming algorithms, but I have a programmer that 
will handle them, so if you end up not doing anything with them please 
let me know.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Dec 11 18:24:57 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:24:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <29B287A2-F2FF-4B68-BA97-7D659CD5F872@gmail.com>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112111927.OAA21871@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <29B287A2-F2FF-4B68-BA97-7D659CD5F872@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112120024.TAA25974@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, [...]
> That's what I've always heard them called.  I know they're generally
> considered terrible,

They are...for some things.  They're just fine for a lot of others.

> but I've had lots of luck with them for low-speed projects

Same here.  I've even had them work OK for high speed, at least high
speed for stuff I build, which means the low megahertz, possibly even a
few tens of megahertz.  But I suspect that's more an artifact of high
gain overcoming the problems than their not being any problems - all
such stuff I've done has been digital.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Dec 11 18:34:15 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 19:34:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RZsPG-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RZsPG-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112120034.TAA26083@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, [...]
>> [...]
> That said, I don't think they save much tiem.  The time taken to form
> component leads to fit into one of these breadboards, or to strip a
> piece of isulated wire to go in, is not much less than soldering the
> components to stripboard (assuming your iron is already hot).

I find they save time.  Not so much because it's faster to build
something that way, but because it's a lot easier to do experimental
stuff that way, stuff that involves lots of test-change-retest cycles,
and that's a lot of the electronics I do.  Similarly, it's a lot easier
to rip the circuit apart and put the parts back in stock in shape
suitable for future experimentation.

It also greatly cuts down on scorched/burnt skin. :)

That said, different strokes for different folks.  If Tony, or anyone
else for that matter, finds soldering works better, I'd never try to
argue otherwise.  For me, with my skills and preferences and the kinds
of stuff I do, solderless breadboards are a huge win - but those
qualifications are important.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com  Sat Dec 10 09:25:49 2011
From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:25:49 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
Message-ID: <7F8BB8859E0E4DD49B224B226A4F06F6@Pc12>

confimation
I have just examined on a real BK0010 using Mirage the debugger
the msbyte of the address 177716 is always 100 whatever you do (as I can 
see),the lsbyte varies but not the msbyte ,so the principle that the 
starting address of the processor is made od the msbyte of address 
177716+000 for lsbyte.100+000 gives an adress of 100000,type g100000 in the 
debugger makes a good clean start of the machine.I think it is a register in 
the support circuit k1801BM1-014
best regards
a.n

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "nierveze" <nierveze at radio-astronomie.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:26 AM
Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?


> hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather 
> sophisticated,here here is what I have found:
> first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
> *at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
> *when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts 
> immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
> *DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors 
> clears the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if 
> this period internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
> *ACLO should be low for 70 ms
> *after there arre differences in the processors:
> *the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by 
> SEL1),the lsb of
> the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is 
> filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be 
> physically in a small rom,
> a register bank ,or in support circuit???
> *for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a 
> 74ls 244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the 
> T11),selected by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the starting 
> address in rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2
> Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
> poor as hours:-)))
> I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei Vakulenko 
> (vak.ru,page of projects)
> You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those 
> microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
> I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
> of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not 
> have .
> But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
> startup procedure.
> Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010 
> BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
> Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
> Thanks best regards
> Alin Nierveze
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
> Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
>
>
>> HI Devin,
>>
>> In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on
>> a testboard and applied power and clock.
>> Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to
>> read on those sites.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Holm
>>
>> Devin Monnens wrote:
>>
>>> Holm,
>>>
>>> I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
>>> Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
>>> these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
>>>
>>> http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
>>> http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
>>> here or maybe here:
>>> http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
>>> - I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
>>>
>>> -Devin Monnens
>>>
>>>
>>> > ------------------------------
>>> >
>>> > Message: 14
>>> > Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
>>> > From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
>>> > To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>>> > Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
>>> > Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
>>> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
>>> > My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems 
>>> > to
>>> > understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
>>> > There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
>>> > sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
>>> > It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the 
>>> > start
>>> > address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
>>> > Can anyone please confirm this?
>>> >
>>> > BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
>>> >
>>> > Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
>>> > support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
>>> >
>>> > Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
>>> >
>>> > Holm
>>> > --
>>> >      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>>> >     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>>> >  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>>> >
>>> >
>>> -- 
>>> Devin Monnens
>>> www.deserthat.com
>>>
>>> The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>>
>> -- 
>>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>>
> 



From dfaultersack at cox.net  Sat Dec 10 17:46:29 2011
From: dfaultersack at cox.net (Mission Planning)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:46:29 -0800
Subject: Unisys "Micro A"
Message-ID: <000001ccb795$f066f0b0$d134d210$@cox.net>

Hi,

Noticed a very old request about the Micro-A.

Still interested?

Regards,

David Faultersack

Micro-A Engineer



From cym224 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 10 19:08:48 2011
From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo)
Date: Sat, 10 Dec 2011 20:08:48 -0500
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
References: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <CAJfiPzzxTM=aeK6RTLsJRHQeYHoe=JGRDTwNt6C259Wo336vUw@mail.gmail.com>

On 10 December 2011 08:06, Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> wrote:
> The collective wisdom of this list should have no problem identifying this?
>
> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/ibm_something.jpg
>
> Jos

Were I to hazard a guess, I would say a telco tester but did IBM make
telco boxes?


From dfaultersack at cox.net  Sun Dec 11 11:32:01 2011
From: dfaultersack at cox.net (Mission Planning)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:32:01 -0800
Subject: Unisys "Micro A"
Message-ID: <000001ccb82a$cba558d0$62f00a70$@cox.net>

Hi,

Noticed an old posting.

Just have to say that this was NOT an emulator.

It was a real hardware Burroughs mainframe.

Regards,

David Faultersack

Micro-A Engineer



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 19:07:56 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 20:07:56 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112120034.TAA26083@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RZsPG-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <201112120034.TAA26083@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <C63B484A-1DE9-437D-A823-73D04990CAEF@gmail.com>

On Dec 11, 2011, at 7:34 PM, Mouse wrote:

> That said, different strokes for different folks.  If Tony, or anyone
> else for that matter, finds soldering works better, I'd never try to
> argue otherwise.  For me, with my skills and preferences and the kinds
> of stuff I do, solderless breadboards are a huge win - but those
> qualifications are important.

Well, yeah.  My preference, given an abundance of perfboard and appropriate parts (not always a given), is wire-wrap.  Much less stray capacitance, and it's at least easier to keep the rat's nest linear with wire-wrap (instead of the mass of arcs that a solderless breadboard entails).  However, while I have quite a few wire-wrap machined-pin IC sockets (which work great for discrete passives as well), I don't have any wire-wrap ports, which generally necessitates a bit of some of the very worst kind of soldering to get the data off the board. :-)

Of course, I wouldn't use solderless breadboards where any ports were required anyway, since you can't place double-wide headers on them anyway (at least, not usefully).

I tend to wire-wrap a lot more often than I solder, mostly because I don't have much stripboard at my disposal, and bare phenolic is a whole lot cheaper.  If I do anything major, I need something with proper power buses anyway.


- Dave




From alhartman at yahoo.com  Sun Dec 11 19:28:55 2011
From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:28:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1323280809.76884.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1323280809.76884.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1323653335.28760.YahooMailNeo@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Word 5.1 for the Mac runs fine under Executor (http://www.ardi.com). In fact, Executor came about as a way to run Word and Excel on NeXT systems, and was ported to Windows, DOS, and Linux.

Executor was how I ran Word for Mac on my PC until Word for Windows eventually caught up.

I also used the MagicSac on my Atari-ST with an Epson MX-80 and EPStart (to print with) to use Word on my ST. Later I got a program whose name I forget (Printworks for the Mac - Laser Version?) that was a driver for popular Laser and Dot Matrix Printers that came with a special Apple Serial to Parallel printer cable.

I have a Spectre-128 GCR now (I also have ARDI's Transporter One to read Mac GCR disks), but haven't booted my ST in ages. It has a 2.5gb RAM upgrade by AERCO that has stopped working, and I lost the documentation for it, so I can't figure out the jumper settings. Someday, I hope to find them or find someone who has it... Or even more unlikely, run into one of the principles of AERCO.

I remember that WordPerfect for the Mac 3.5 ran fine under Classic on MacOS X. Here's a webpage about it:?http://www.columbia.edu/~em36/wpdos/macintosh.html

Hope some of this is helpful...

Al



From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Sun Dec 11 19:35:55 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 01:35:55 +0000
Subject: OT (Sort of):  Programming algorithm for PALCE devices
In-Reply-To: <4EE4C64F.6621.12B3E23@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EE4C64F.6621.12B3E23@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE55A7B.4060908@philpem.me.uk>

On 11/12/11 23:03, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Pardon if you've heard this before, but...
>
> I'm looking for the programming algorithm for Lattice/AMD/Cypress old
> PALCE devices.  I've got a bucketload of them (mostly PLCC) and I'd
> like to do something with them or trash them, if no luck in the
> programming department.

I've been looking for the PALCE algorithms for ages, and found precisely 
nothing... On the off-chance you do find them, I'd love a copy...

There is a DOS PALCE programming tool floating around for one of the old 
Sunshine EPROM programmers, and I seem to recall there being 
documentation included on what the various I/O ports did. If you wanted 
a weekend project, I suppose you could reverse-engineer that...

> I've found algorithms for the PEEL devices as well as NS type plain
> GALs, but nothing on the PALCEs.

Any chance you'd be willing to share the PEEL algorithms?
I think the GAL algorithms were also documented by Manfred Winterhoff as 
part of the GALBlast project... unless you have other documentation I 
don't know about? :)

Thanks,
Phil.


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 11 19:38:34 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:38:34 -0800
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <C63B484A-1DE9-437D-A823-73D04990CAEF@gmail.com>
References: <m1RZsPG-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <201112120034.TAA26083@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>,
 <C63B484A-1DE9-437D-A823-73D04990CAEF@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE4EA9A.25587.1B9051F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 11 Dec 2011 at 20:07, David Riley wrote:

> Well, yeah.  My preference, given an abundance of perfboard and
> appropriate parts (not always a given), is wire-wrap.  Much less stray
> capacitance, and it's at least easier to keep the rat's nest linear
> with wire-wrap (instead of the mass of arcs that a solderless
> breadboard entails).  However, while I have quite a few wire-wrap
> machined-pin IC sockets (which work great for discrete passives as
> well), I don't have any wire-wrap ports, which generally necessitates
> a bit of some of the very worst kind of soldering to get the data off
> the board. :-)

If it's a device I want to keep around, I construct the one-offs with 
wirewrap, using wirewrap socket pins and blank foil-on-one side PCB 
stock.  I drill the pin holes myself with a #54 drill.

The wirewrap allows me to modify the design until it works right, 
while the foil gives me a ground plane.  +Vcc (or whatever) is run 
with bare 20 AWG wire between pins on the top side of the board with 
bypass caps spaced every so often. 

After it's all done, the thing will last for decades.  

--Chuck


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sun Dec 11 19:43:26 2011
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 20:43:26 -0500
Subject: DT2768-I Diagnostic Program and Manual
Message-ID: <4EE55C3E.5000809@compsys.to>

I need a copy of the diagnostic program for a Qbus Data Translation board:

DT2768-I

The program that I need runs under RT-11.  If there are other versions,
it may be possible to use a different operating system, so please let me
know if you have a non-RT-11 version.

I believe it is an Analog to Digital Adapter, but I am not sure.  
However, the
module number is definitely DT2768-I.

Can anyone help or suggest where it can be found.  I checked bitsavers on
both the bit and pdf sections, but there was nothing there.

Jerome Fine


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Sun Dec 11 21:27:35 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 22:27:35 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnHOaaVLkQw=a4V797ZonEpHrj7qv=Br5TZqK4O65K4+Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> For instance, I frequently need to do things like:
>
> REN *.log *.old
>
> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
> work on Unix/Linux.

On RedHat, this should work...

rename .log .old *.log

But there seems to be a different 'rename' on Ubuntu (a link to
/usr/bin/prename, a Perl script).

-ethan


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sun Dec 11 22:25:24 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 05:25:24 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 02:23:14PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 10 December 2011 21:45, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:23:54 +0000
> > Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> I think writing a small program to do what would take a single command
> >> on almost any other CLI OS I have ever used illustrates my point
> >> rather well...!
> > Yes. And this is no surprise, given that Unix is an OS programmed by
> > programmes who wanted a nice environment for programming. :-)
> 
> Yes, absolutely!
> 
> A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
> to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
> queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
> idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
> alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
> programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
> non-programmers.

Yes, Unix evolved, among other things, as a tool hacked on by the folks
that where actually using it. And in those days, those weren't exactly
graphics designers, english majors or musicians. So it was build and
improved by programmers, sysops, researchers and so on to be a useful
tool for what they were doing.
 
> As this particular friend said to me: "it is only now that I am
> starting to understand how /deeply/ bizarre some of this stuff must
> seem to you, as a non-programmer!"

Hehe. If you are in the programmer/systems engineering mindset, it is
all perfectly logical and is in fact an incredible powerful tool. If you
are not ... well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)
 
> > BTW: A friend of mine knows all and everything about Windows. But he
> > simply can't wrap his mind around Unix. Just like you.
> 
> :?D Hurrah! It is not just me!

No, it is not just you. I'm sure there are plenty of people who just can't
really grok Unix. As well as people who just love it. ;-)

Fortunately, there is room for both of them.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sun Dec 11 22:17:09 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 05:17:09 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> > On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >>
> >> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
> >> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
> >> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
> >> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
> >
> > ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character, an
> > asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about that?
> 
> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
> things like:
> 
> REN *.log *.old
> 
> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
> work on Unix/Linux.

Wrong tool.

If you want to do the above, use mmv:
mmv "*.log" "#1.old"

> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they

Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
filename. And it is perfectly happy to go and run a shell script called
"foo.cannot_be_executed" as long as the appropriate r & x bits in the
permissions are set. This is because for Unix filesystems, the name
of a file is simple a 0-terminated string of bytes with pretty much only
two rules as to its content: it cannot contain "/" (path separator)
and it cannot contain 0 (end-of-string in C). Also, there tends to be
a limit as to maximum path length. Beyond that, Unix doesn't even
pretend to care what you name your files.
(ok, "." and ".." are "magic" directory entries that cannot be used
for file names)

It is as simple as that ;-)

> were and remain integral to DOS-based & Windows-based systems - i.e.
> about 95% of the machines I support.
> 
> > ?Regexps aren't quite that simple, but I have a hard time believing anyone
> > couldn't get the general idea after maybe ten minutes. ?If you want to learn
> > that stuff, contact me offlist and I'll be happy to help.
> 
> I've been bending my brain against it since 1988. I doubt it's going
> to stick now!

Well, I first discovered Unix in 1993 and it has been revelation for me.
To each his own ;-)

> Windows knowledge has to be updated every few years as MICROS~1 change
> everything, and I don't really like Windows any more anyway, even if I
> know it better than anything else.

For the last 10+ years I pretty much only touched Windows, reluctantly,
when I got paid for it. The platform is just to damn annoying and useless
for my needs.
 
> Unix knowledge helps me out on Linux but I am a bit of a Unix-hater

Whereas I'm more of a Unix zealot, but a reasonable one ;-)

> really, at heart, and I have never managed to truly master shell or C
> or Perl or regexps or any of the core Unix toolkit.

They are very powerful tools, but admittedly, not for everyone.

> Linux has fixed
> and improved lots of things, but it's still the same ugly, hostile old
> system underneath.

Well, there is the old saw: "Unix _is_ userfriendly. It is just very
selective who its friends are." ;-)

> OSs I really /liked/ at some time or for some reason included Acorn
> RISC OS, BeOS, classic MacOS, OS/2, Psion EPOC, NewtonOS and Novell
> Netware 2 and 3. And VMS, I suppose, but I only ever scratched the
> surface. And all of them had lovely aspects that I cherished but also
> terrible *terrible* problems and weaknesses as well.
> 
> All are essentially dead and gone now.

Don't tell that to the OMP, 2 MP2100 and the emate in the shelf behind me.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 11 23:02:16 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 21:02:16 -0800
Subject: OT (Sort of):  Programming algorithm for PALCE devices
In-Reply-To: <4EE55A7B.4060908@philpem.me.uk>
References: <4EE4C64F.6621.12B3E23@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE55A7B.4060908@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4EE51A58.1000.2738226@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 1:35, Philip Pemberton wrote:

> PEEL devices?

Link sent--if anyone else needs the info, drop me an off-list note.

--Chuck




From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 00:38:34 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 23:38:34 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 3
Message-ID: <E1RZzX0-0001E1-Vo@shell.xmission.com>

<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/sprawl3/index.html>

Detail view:
- Nuclear Data ND600 terminal

Moved into shelving:
- Beehive
- Lear Siegler
- Hazeltine
- Heathkit
- Televideo
- CDC
- Wang
- Teleray
- Volker-Craig
- Terak
- Basic Four
- Data General
- NCR
- plus random items to fill holes

-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 12 01:25:44 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:25:44 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <7F8BB8859E0E4DD49B224B226A4F06F6@Pc12>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <7F8BB8859E0E4DD49B224B226A4F06F6@Pc12>
Message-ID: <20111212072544.GG110@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Hmm, The BK0010 is using an K1801VM1 CPU that don't use this way of
adressless read to start up. This is only on the K1801VM2 and the K1806VM2
so far as I know...
I think the VM1 is doing the startup using the SEL1 Line, but I haven't
read that much about this processor.
But all of them have no ODT microcode, but an external ROM with the ODT
Debugger in them. For the VM2 the code is in the K1801RE2 on the DBK
Machines.

Regards,

Holm

nierveze wrote:

> confimation
> I have just examined on a real BK0010 using Mirage the debugger
> the msbyte of the address 177716 is always 100 whatever you do (as I can 
> see),the lsbyte varies but not the msbyte ,so the principle that the 
> starting address of the processor is made od the msbyte of address 
> 177716+000 for lsbyte.100+000 gives an adress of 100000,type g100000 in the 
> debugger makes a good clean start of the machine.I think it is a register 
> in the support circuit k1801BM1-014
> best regards
> a.n
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "nierveze" <nierveze at radio-astronomie.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:26 AM
> Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> 
> 
> >hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather 
> >sophisticated,here here is what I have found:
> >first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
> >*at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
> >*when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts 
> >immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
> >*DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors 
> >clears the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if 
> >this period internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
> >*ACLO should be low for 70 ms
> >*after there arre differences in the processors:
> >*the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by 
> >SEL1),the lsb of
> >the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is 
> >filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be 
> >physically in a small rom,
> >a register bank ,or in support circuit???
> >*for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a 
> >74ls 244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the 
> >T11),selected by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the starting 
> >address in rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2
> >Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
> >poor as hours:-)))
> >I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei Vakulenko 
> >(vak.ru,page of projects)
> >You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those 
> >microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
> >I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
> >of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not 
> >have .
> >But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
> >startup procedure.
> >Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010 
> >BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
> >Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
> >Thanks best regards
> >Alin Nierveze
> >
> >----- Original Message ----- 
> >From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> ><cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
> >Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> >
> >
> >>HI Devin,
> >>
> >>In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU on
> >>a testboard and applied power and clock.
> >>Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to
> >>read on those sites.
> >>
> >>Thanks,
> >>
> >>Holm
> >>
> >>Devin Monnens wrote:
> >>
> >>>Holm,
> >>>
> >>>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
> >>>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
> >>>these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
> >>>
> >>>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
> >>>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
> >>>here or maybe here:
> >>>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
> >>>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
> >>>
> >>>-Devin Monnens
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>
> >>>> Message: 14
> >>>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
> >>>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> >>>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >>>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> >>>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
> >>>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems 
> >>>> to
> >>>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
> >>>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
> >>>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
> >>>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the 
> >>>> start
> >>>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
> >>>> Can anyone please confirm this?
> >>>>
> >>>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
> >>>>
> >>>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
> >>>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
> >>>>
> >>>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
> >>>>
> >>>> Holm
> >>>> --
> >>>>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >>>>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >>>>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>-- 
> >>>Devin Monnens
> >>>www.deserthat.com
> >>>
> >>>The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> >>
> >>-- 
> >>     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >>    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >>
> >

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 05:51:28 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:51:28 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
Message-ID: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks. 


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 07:05:21 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:05:21 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>

On 11 December 2011 14:32, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 11, 2011, at 9:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
>> to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
>> queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
>> idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
>> alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
>> programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
>> non-programmers.
>
> Or, as the saying goes: "Unix is plenty user-friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are."

Ahahaha! Well, true. But it's changing. Don't forget that Mac OS X is
officially UNIX?, as approved by the Open Group. And it's the most
widely-licensed UNIX? there has ever been, either in terms of numbers
of users or in terms of number of systems. I suspect that its sales of
several hundred million licences means that it has outsold /all/ other
commercial Unices there have ever been /put together/.

(That's excluding the rather greater number of iPhones, iPads and iPod
Touches, which run the same core OS with a different GUI.)

And yet it's very friendly. Arguably the friendliest, most accessible
modern desktop OS.

Also, it might amuse ClassicCompers to know that there is now a
community of people interested in running "classic" early versions of
OS X on older Macs, especially PowerPC Macs. Our own Cameron Kaiser
being something of a hero in this regard. ;?D


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 07:06:26 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:06:26 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnHOaaVLkQw=a4V797ZonEpHrj7qv=Br5TZqK4O65K4+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnHOaaVLkQw=a4V797ZonEpHrj7qv=Br5TZqK4O65K4+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE+oVN07wpc4eCMT+Q6G=bzvdai_wo-TFtQ8O4L_PngRA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 03:27, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> For instance, I frequently need to do things like:
>>
>> REN *.log *.old
>>
>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>> work on Unix/Linux.
>
> On RedHat, this should work...
>
> rename .log .old *.log
>
> But there seems to be a different 'rename' on Ubuntu (a link to
> /usr/bin/prename, a Perl script).

Would that not look for 2 files, called dot-log and dot-old?


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 07:18:35 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:18:35 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 04:25, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 02:23:14PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 10 December 2011 21:45, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
>> > On Sat, 10 Dec 2011 19:23:54 +0000
>> > Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think writing a small program to do what would take a single command
>> >> on almost any other CLI OS I have ever used illustrates my point
>> >> rather well...!
>> > Yes. And this is no surprise, given that Unix is an OS programmed by
>> > programmes who wanted a nice environment for programming. :-)
>>
>> Yes, absolutely!
>>
>> A friend who rented a room off me for a couple of years wa s the first
>> to say this to me. I would often go to him with Linux problems and
>> queries and it took him quite some time to wrap his head around the
>> idea that I was powerfully averse to scripting and coding. It is very
>> alien to the Unix mindset, which is, yes, by programmers for
>> programmers. This makes it sometimes very unfriendly to
>> non-programmers.
>
> Yes, Unix evolved, among other things, as a tool hacked on by the folks
> that where actually using it. And in those days, those weren't exactly
> graphics designers, english majors or musicians. So it was build and
> improved by programmers, sysops, researchers and so on to be a useful
> tool for what they were doing.

Well, that's true, but until the 1990s, it was primarily a commercial
product, no? The one that influenced everybody most, and got licensed,
was AT&T, mainly System V, not BSD, is that not so?

IIRC, Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, SCO Unix and UnixWare, OSF/1 etc. all
contained SysV code? (Even if not the kernel.)

And AT&T wasn't very cooperatively-developed!

>> As this particular friend said to me: "it is only now that I am
>> starting to understand how /deeply/ bizarre some of this stuff must
>> seem to you, as a non-programmer!"
>
> Hehe. If you are in the programmer/systems engineering mindset, it is
> all perfectly logical and is in fact an incredible powerful tool. If you
> are not ... well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
> boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)
>
>> > BTW: A friend of mine knows all and everything about Windows. But he
>> > simply can't wrap his mind around Unix. Just like you.
>>
>> :?D Hurrah! It is not just me!
>
> No, it is not just you. I'm sure there are plenty of people who just can't
> really grok Unix. As well as people who just love it. ;-)
>
> Fortunately, there is room for both of them.

Indeed!

The thing that I like - which used to cause protests, but it appears
to be fading now - is that after some 2 decades of busy, rapid
open-source Unix development, it is now getting to the point where it
is approaching the degree of user-friendliness of the best commercial
systems. In some areas, it's ahead; in some, behind. But it's getting
there, even when this is over the protesting howls of the Unix
old-timers.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 07:21:17 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:21:17 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> And yet it's very friendly. Arguably the friendliest, most accessible

modern desktop OS.
>
>
Until you try to set up things that aren't Mac/OS applications... but lower
level Darwin applications.  (;



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 07:23:48 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:23:48 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>> > On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>> >> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>> >> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>> >> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>> >
>> > ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character, an
>> > asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about that?
>>
>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>> things like:
>>
>> REN *.log *.old
>>
>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>> work on Unix/Linux.
>
> Wrong tool.
>
> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
>
>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>
> Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
> far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
> filename. And it is perfectly happy to go and run a shell script called
> "foo.cannot_be_executed" as long as the appropriate r & x bits in the
> permissions are set. This is because for Unix filesystems, the name
> of a file is simple a 0-terminated string of bytes with pretty much only
> two rules as to its content: it cannot contain "/" (path separator)
> and it cannot contain 0 (end-of-string in C). Also, there tends to be
> a limit as to maximum path length. Beyond that, Unix doesn't even
> pretend to care what you name your files.
> (ok, "." and ".." are "magic" directory entries that cannot be used
> for file names)

Yes, I know. It's not that, I have no problem with that. The thing is
that in the <ironic>wonderful world of the Web</ironic>, extensions
are once again part of the deal - stuff like .html and .jpg and .png
and whatnot all suddenly become very significant, even if the server
and client are both Unix machines.

Plus, Unixes such as Mac OS X use extensions as important metadata, as
must any Linux which interoperates with Windows - which is to say most
of them. Extensions are important to LibreOffice and so on, for
example.

>> were and remain integral to DOS-based & Windows-based systems - i.e.
>> about 95% of the machines I support.
>>
>> > ?Regexps aren't quite that simple, but I have a hard time believing anyone
>> > couldn't get the general idea after maybe ten minutes. ?If you want to learn
>> > that stuff, contact me offlist and I'll be happy to help.
>>
>> I've been bending my brain against it since 1988. I doubt it's going
>> to stick now!
>
> Well, I first discovered Unix in 1993 and it has been revelation for me.
> To each his own ;-)

I was installing commercial SCO Xenix systems half a decade before that! :?D

>> Windows knowledge has to be updated every few years as MICROS~1 change
>> everything, and I don't really like Windows any more anyway, even if I
>> know it better than anything else.
>
> For the last 10+ years I pretty much only touched Windows, reluctantly,
> when I got paid for it. The platform is just to damn annoying and useless
> for my needs.

I can relate to that. I increasingly avoid it - but sadly it is still
where most of the work is.

>> Unix knowledge helps me out on Linux but I am a bit of a Unix-hater
>
> Whereas I'm more of a Unix zealot, but a reasonable one ;-)

:?D

>> really, at heart, and I have never managed to truly master shell or C
>> or Perl or regexps or any of the core Unix toolkit.
>
> They are very powerful tools, but admittedly, not for everyone.

I kinda wish I could wrap my head around them. (I initially typoed and
wrote "warp". It seems apt.)

But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now. It's been some 30y. Enough.

>> Linux has fixed
>> and improved lots of things, but it's still the same ugly, hostile old
>> system underneath.
>
> Well, there is the old saw: "Unix _is_ userfriendly. It is just very
> selective who its friends are." ;-)
>
>> OSs I really /liked/ at some time or for some reason included Acorn
>> RISC OS, BeOS, classic MacOS, OS/2, Psion EPOC, NewtonOS and Novell
>> Netware 2 and 3. And VMS, I suppose, but I only ever scratched the
>> surface. And all of them had lovely aspects that I cherished but also
>> terrible *terrible* problems and weaknesses as well.
>>
>> All are essentially dead and gone now.
>
> Don't tell that to the OMP, 2 MP2100 and the emate in the shelf behind me.

I have an OMP and a 2100 myself. It's still a very dead platform, though, sadly.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Mon Dec 12 07:26:29 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:26:29 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:05 AM
Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne


> On 11 December 2011 14:32, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Ahahaha! Well, true. But it's changing. Don't forget that Mac OS X is
> officially UNIX?, as approved by the Open Group. And it's the most
> widely-licensed UNIX? there has ever been, either in terms of numbers
> of users or in terms of number of systems. I suspect that its sales of
> several hundred million licences means that it has outsold /all/ other
> commercial Unices there have ever been /put together/.
>
> (That's excluding the rather greater number of iPhones, iPads and iPod
> Touches, which run the same core OS with a different GUI.)
>
> And yet it's very friendly. Arguably the friendliest, most accessible
> modern desktop OS.
>
> Also, it might amuse ClassicCompers to know that there is now a
> community of people interested in running "classic" early versions of
> OS X on older Macs, especially PowerPC Macs. Our own Cameron Kaiser
> being something of a hero in this regard. ;?D
>

Well Apple put more effort into OSX then they did with their first UNIX 
(A/UX). OSX pre 10.3.x sucks.





From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 07:26:34 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:26:34 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCG1k5VPzCKXz=PFscQo2wSzUKzqeXrCAdwpbpbkz7biBQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>> > On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>> >> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>> >> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>> >> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>> >
>> > ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character, an
>> > asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about that?
>>
>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>> things like:
>>
>> REN *.log *.old
>>
>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>> work on Unix/Linux.
>
> Wrong tool.
>
> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"

Fascinating. I have installed it and will investigate - it looks interesting.

What does the #1 denote in there, though?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 07:58:23 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:58:23 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG1k5VPzCKXz=PFscQo2wSzUKzqeXrCAdwpbpbkz7biBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCG1k5VPzCKXz=PFscQo2wSzUKzqeXrCAdwpbpbkz7biBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E9533E8B-154E-4775-8ABA-FC3D767C9A39@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

>> Wrong tool.
>> 
>> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
>> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
> 
> Fascinating. I have installed it and will investigate - it looks interesting.
> 
> What does the #1 denote in there, though?

I haven't used the tool in question, but I'm assuming it's a substitution symbol (if you can bear to think about awk for a bit, it's like $1).  Presumably it uses the hash mark to avoid shell parsing of the $.

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:03:20 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:03:20 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D6A027F2-3777-4DF1-8316-D38A3FA8FB8E@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:05 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 11 December 2011 14:32, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Or, as the saying goes: "Unix is plenty user-friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are."
> 
> Ahahaha! Well, true. But it's changing. Don't forget that Mac OS X is
> officially UNIX?, as approved by the Open Group. And it's the most
> widely-licensed UNIX? there has ever been, either in terms of numbers
> of users or in terms of number of systems. I suspect that its sales of
> several hundred million licences means that it has outsold /all/ other
> commercial Unices there have ever been /put together/.

Indeed, though I would argue that the reason it's user-friendly to the "other half" is that the UNIX bits are hidden away very well if you aren't actually looking for them (with some exceptions; on Lion, I was disgusted to find that the typematic repeat had been replaced with symbol selection palettes a la iOS, and the only way to revert to normal behavior was mucking around with the config files with the terminal.  I use the terminal all the time, but I shouldn't have to to fix a major regression in the user interface).  Seeing the Terminal when I open it to do something tinkery sends most of my repair clients to the couch with the screaming meemies.

> Also, it might amuse ClassicCompers to know that there is now a
> community of people interested in running "classic" early versions of
> OS X on older Macs, especially PowerPC Macs. Our own Cameron Kaiser
> being something of a hero in this regard. ;?D

Indeed.  The funniest damn thing I ever saw, though, was someone running OS X under PearPC under Linux-m68k on a 68040.  I seem to recall they said it took close to a day to even boot.


- Dave




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 08:08:07 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:08:07 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 5:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber<als at thangorodrim.de>  wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com>  wrote:
>>>> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>>>>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>>>>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>>>>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>>>>
>>>>   UNIX shell wildcards?  A question mark matches any single character, an
>>>> asterisk matches any number of any characters.  What's so tough about that?
>>>
>>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>>> things like:
>>>
>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>
>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>
>> Wrong tool.
>>
>> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
>> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
>>
>>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>>
>> Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
>> far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
>> filename. ...
>
> Yes, I know. It's not that, I have no problem with that. The thing is
> that in the<ironic>wonderful world of the Web</ironic>, extensions
> are once again part of the deal - stuff like .html and .jpg and .png
> and whatnot all suddenly become very significant, even if the server
> and client are both Unix machines.
>

How does that show that representing extensions as part of a file name 
string is problematic?

Extensions have 2 functions in Unix:
  * aide-memoire for the user including a large set of conventions;
  * (later) compatibility with legacy systems.

The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can 
you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very 
poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is 
neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)

In the case of the web, browsers are supposed to pay attention to 
Content-Type, not sniff by extension. (Yes, I know Apache can be 
configured to sniff extensions. Again, this works just fine with Unix' 
representation.)

> Plus, Unixes such as Mac OS X use extensions as important metadata, as
> must any Linux which interoperates with Windows - which is to say most
> of them. Extensions are important to LibreOffice and so on, for
> example.

Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File 
association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many 
times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator 
codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially 
absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).

--Toby

>
>>> were and remain integral to DOS-based&  Windows-based systems - i.e.
>>> about 95% of the machines I support.
>>>...


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:08:10 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:08:10 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks. 

Decoding composite video is a hairy task that involves a lot more than a passive adaptor.  Such devices are available (sorry, long Amazon link):

http://www.amazon.com/Composite-S-Video-Converter-Adapter-SPECIALTY-AV/dp/B005CV4ZH6/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_2

Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual viewing applications get a bit ugly.  There are USB equivalents (such as EyeTV) which work nicely with the Mac as well, but they're a bit more pricy.


- Dave




From md.benson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:10:54 2011
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:10:54 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
Message-ID: <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>

On 12 Dec 2011, at 13:26, "TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:

> Well Apple put more effort into OSX then they did with their first UNIX (A/UX).

Which is a shame, A/UX was actually pretty cool.

> OSX pre 10.3.x sucks.

Hmm yes. The word 'netinfo' still strikes fear into the souls of people who tried to configure stuff like NFS exports on early OS X versions :S



-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 08:12:15 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:12:15 -0500
Subject: MacOS X - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
Message-ID: <4EE60BBF.4010204@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 5:26 AM, TeoZ wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:05 AM
> Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
>
>
>> On 11 December 2011 14:32, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ahahaha! Well, true. But it's changing. Don't forget that Mac OS X is
>> officially UNIX?, as approved by the Open Group. And it's the most
>> widely-licensed UNIX? there has ever been, either in terms of numbers
>> of users or in terms of number of systems. I suspect that its sales of
>> several hundred million licences means that it has outsold /all/ other
>> commercial Unices there have ever been /put together/.
>>
>> (That's excluding the rather greater number of iPhones, iPads and iPod
>> Touches, which run the same core OS with a different GUI.)
>>
>> And yet it's very friendly. Arguably the friendliest, most accessible
>> modern desktop OS.
>>
>> Also, it might amuse ClassicCompers to know that there is now a
>> community of people interested in running "classic" early versions of
>> OS X on older Macs, especially PowerPC Macs. Our own Cameron Kaiser
>> being something of a hero in this regard. ;?D

This is often done out of necessity - some software didn't make the 
jump, and as Cameron points out, Apple is progressively obsoleting their 
compatibility layers. I'm one of those people who keeps 10.4 around for 
Classic.

>>
>
> Well Apple put more effort into OSX then they did with their first UNIX
> (A/UX). OSX pre 10.3.x sucks.

10.2 was the first OS X we found production-ready for graphic arts and 
pre-press, but Adobe and Quark had a few years of catching up to do 
after that before they could match the stability of OS9 workflows.

--T


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 08:22:51 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:22:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 12,
 11 06:08:07 am"
Message-ID: <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>

> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File 
> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many 
> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator 
> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially 
> absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).

I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple for
removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
concern).

The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate this
consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain files to
automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a time
OS X gave you the choice.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell ---------------------------


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 08:23:51 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:23:51 -0500
Subject: Linotype/Monotype manuals - Re: OT: offset printing?
In-Reply-To: <m1RZrFF-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RZrFF-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EE60E77.70102@telegraphics.com.au>

On 11/12/11 4:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>     Note that I'm not talking about metal type ("letterpress") printing,
>> something I already have a bit of experience with.  I'm now looking at
>> offset printing, which is a whole different animal.  That isn't quite so
>> pricey on a hobbyist level, since it's dealing with equipment that
>> production print shops often have a very hard time getting rid of.
>
> As an aside (and not at all relevant to the OP), I found a couple of
> semi-techncial books on the monotype nad linotype machiens in a charity
> shop a while back. Semi-techncial meaning theu included diagrams of the
> mechanism, instructiosn for dismantling and adjusting it, etc.

Those are quite important. I just gave a Linotype Electric Pot manual 
and a Linotype Maintenance Manual to a friend who still runs Linotype 
and Monotype gear. If you ever see anything related to hot metal 
equipment, I suggest you grab it (and try to find a good home, if you 
don't want it specifically).

--Toby

>
> On the groudns i tend to buy any technical books if the price is right,
> they came home with me... I'd better not start collecting that sort of
> machine, though, classic comptuers give me enough of a (lack of) space
> problem as it is.
>
> -tony
>



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:29:49 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:29:49 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 13:21, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> And yet it's very friendly. Arguably the friendliest, most accessible
>
> modern desktop OS.
>>
> Until you try to set up things that aren't Mac/OS applications... but lower
> level Darwin applications. ?(;

I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:33:38 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:33:38 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEk=a4qaHENkRCYiuYDL2PekTSwy=U1j81_eLyBgUFkbA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 13:26, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:05 AM
>
> Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
>
>> On 11 December 2011 14:32, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Ahahaha! Well, true. But it's changing. Don't forget that Mac OS X is
>> officially UNIX?, as approved by the Open Group. And it's the most
>> widely-licensed UNIX? there has ever been, either in terms of numbers
>> of users or in terms of number of systems. I suspect that its sales of
>> several hundred million licences means that it has outsold /all/ other
>> commercial Unices there have ever been /put together/.
>>
>> (That's excluding the rather greater number of iPhones, iPads and iPod
>> Touches, which run the same core OS with a different GUI.)
>>
>> And yet it's very friendly. Arguably the friendliest, most accessible
>> modern desktop OS.
>>
>> Also, it might amuse ClassicCompers to know that there is now a
>> community of people interested in running "classic" early versions of
>> OS X on older Macs, especially PowerPC Macs. Our own Cameron Kaiser
>> being something of a hero in this regard. ;?D
>>
>
> Well Apple put more effort into OSX then they did with their first UNIX
> (A/UX).

It certainly did, yes.

Looking back, with hindsight, rather than all the time and effort and
money it wasted on Copland and "Pink" and Taligent, it should have
ported A/UX to PowerPC and updated it. The future was right there,
staring it in the face, and the company never noticed.


But A/UX was a sideline, whereas OS X was *the* bet-the-company
lifeline to the future.

> OSX pre 10.3.x sucks.

That's a bit harsh. "Jaguar" - 10.2 - was pretty decent and entirely
usable. A friend of mine ran his business on 10.2 up until 2008 or so.

10.1 was ropey and 10.0 was really just a public beta, whereas the
"Public Beta" was more like an alpha. :?)

But it was entirely usable from 10.2 and really just improved from
then until 10.4, which covers right up until the Intel transition.

It's the versions after that which, while still improving in many
ways, are also removing features that some of us find important...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:40:13 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:40:13 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 14:08, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 12/12/11 5:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber<als at thangorodrim.de>
>> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com> ?wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>>>>>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>>>>>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>>>>>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character,
>>>>> an
>>>>> asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about
>>>>> that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>>>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>>>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>>>> things like:
>>>>
>>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>>
>>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>>
>>>
>>> Wrong tool.
>>>
>>> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
>>> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
>>>
>>>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>>>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>>>
>>>
>>> Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
>>> far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
>>> filename. ...
>>
>>
>> Yes, I know. It's not that, I have no problem with that. The thing is
>> that in the<ironic>wonderful world of the Web</ironic>, extensions
>> are once again part of the deal - stuff like .html and .jpg and .png
>> and whatnot all suddenly become very significant, even if the server
>> and client are both Unix machines.
>>
>
> How does that show that representing extensions as part of a file name
> string is problematic?
>
> Extensions have 2 functions in Unix:
> ?* aide-memoire for the user including a large set of conventions;
> ?* (later) compatibility with legacy systems.
>
> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can you
> give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very poorly"? (Your
> faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is neither about Unix
> (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>
> In the case of the web, browsers are supposed to pay attention to
> Content-Type, not sniff by extension. (Yes, I know Apache can be configured
> to sniff extensions. Again, this works just fine with Unix' representation.)
>
>> Plus, Unixes such as Mac OS X use extensions as important metadata, as
>> must any Linux which interoperates with Windows - which is to say most
>> of them. Extensions are important to LibreOffice and so on, for
>> example.
>
>
> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially absent,
> though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).

They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
some text after the dot and it's a valid name.

When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
something-dot-bar.

In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
earlier post about log files, writing a short script.

But that's OK. As it is on the Mac, use of the CLI is on the wane in
modern Linux, too. I suspect many happy Ubuntu users can get by with
never using the Terminal, except occasionally to copy-and-paste some
command in from the web or from a support tech. And that's just fine
and I think that the progression will continue.

It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.

I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.



-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 12 08:35:38 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:35:38 -0600
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112121442.pBCEgg0j029545@billy.ezwind.net>

At 08:08 AM 12/12/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).

So Apple hid the four bytes of the extension in the resource fork, plus
other stuff.

Unix hides metadata about files, too - timestamp, owner, permissions - and
they certainly quickly adopted naming conventions since, oh, 'a.out'.

If someone chose to create their C source files with a '.o' extension
and their makefile made object files ending in '.c', it would be widely
recognized as a joke, right?

- John



From rmu_scada at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 12 08:48:12 2011
From: rmu_scada at yahoo.com (Joe Abbott)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 06:48:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
Message-ID: <1323701292.68413.YahooMailClassic@web45104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


http://www.jmargolin.com/vgens/vgens.htm




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 08:53:13 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:53:13 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
References: <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <15CCC67B-69BA-4032-A529-4543A689708A@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 9:22 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File 
>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many 
>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator 
>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially 
>> absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
> 
> I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple for
> removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
> concern).
> 
> The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate this
> consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
> set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain files to
> automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a time
> OS X gave you the choice.

I second the above wholeheartedly.  There was a great "Get More Info" tool that I used when I used System 7 a lot which let you very easily set type/creator codes (as well as all the other miscellaneous file control bits).  I'll have to find that one again, because it really was spectacular.  It hooked into the finder so all you had to do was Cmd-Opt-I.

- Dave





From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 12 08:57:34 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:57:34 -0600
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112121457.pBCEvkVw029987@billy.ezwind.net>

At 08:08 AM 12/12/2011, David Riley wrote:
>On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:
>
>> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks. 

The CoCo 2 has an RF output on channel 3.  You need a device that can
tune to analog channel 3, then output something your new TV can handle.

If your TV still has an analog cable tuner, did you try that?

If your TV doesn't have a tuner, a tightwad alternative is an old VCR that 
can tune to 3, then output to composite or S-Video.

- John



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 09:26:04 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:26:04 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqF_2KaJV+RHQNK9FoKTHGoMiYX8_kfEfPGnxxF_AwXReg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
> OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.
>
> I once had my BBS software running under Mac OSX, many years ago.  I tried
again recently, and no dice.

Back then it just used text files to store messages, and was very simple.
 Now it uses postgresql, Ruby 1.9, and loads of libraries.  After a week, I
gave up and put it on an old laptop with a busted display running Debian...
set up time?  Two hours. (;


-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From md.benson at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 09:31:26 2011
From: md.benson at gmail.com (Mark Benson)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:31:26 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>

On 12 Dec 2011, at 14:29, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
> OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.

Lucky. A lot of us have and it rarely ends well, or if it does the part in the middle is a nightmare.

The point was that your assertion that it's a 'friendly' OS is really only skin deep. Actually it's a awkward bastardisation of BSD UNIX with a friendly *GUI*.

I'd nominate VMS as friendly way before OS X's so-called UNIX implementation.

-- 
Mark Benson

http://markbenson.org/blog
http://twitter.com/MDBenson


From alhartman at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 12 09:32:56 2011
From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:32:56 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.532.1323699781.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.532.1323699781.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1323703976.15750.YahooMailNeo@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Somewhere I have the schematic to tap the input of the RF modulator to drive a Composite Monitor. Several of my Cocos have these. But, newer flat screen TVs may not be able to accept this signal.

You are probably going to find it easier and cheaper to get an old Color TV on Freecycle to use with the Coco than to adapt it to RGB or DVI.

Al


> From: "Vintage Coder" <vintagecoder at aol.com>
>
> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display?
> Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?? What do you call such a converter? Thanks.?




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 09:34:58 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:34:58 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.

Well yes, and that's the key, isn't it?  I think the single most infuriating part of Windows to me is that the system configuration isn't in human-readable text files, it's in inscrutable key/value pairs in a giant global registry.  It makes it impossible to have any real kind of manual control over the operation of the system unless you are a warlock.  On Linux and OS X, you can almost always edit a text file somewhere that will be vaguely understandable even if you've never seen it.

Classic Mac OS had binary preference files, but half the time they could be easily modified with ResEdit, and with very few exceptions, most applications could at least handle having their preference files deleted as basically performing a "factory reset".


- Dave




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 09:41:56 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:41:56 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE+oVN07wpc4eCMT+Q6G=bzvdai_wo-TFtQ8O4L_PngRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnHOaaVLkQw=a4V797ZonEpHrj7qv=Br5TZqK4O65K4+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE+oVN07wpc4eCMT+Q6G=bzvdai_wo-TFtQ8O4L_PngRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmNj2aT13qNoLD9g4fBV3Rfn6TVBm-_m_Y9k2=zY-=C9w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 03:27, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> For instance, I frequently need to do things like:
>>>
>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>
>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>
>> On RedHat, this should work...
>>
>> rename .log .old *.log
>>
>
> Would that not look for 2 files, called dot-log and dot-old?

Nope.  The binary 'rename' command (not the Perl script)  takes N
args, the first is what string to look for in a filename, the second
string is what to replace it with, and 3-N are filenames to change
(including a list generated by the shell expanding a wildcard).  It's
not recursive, so if you wanted to change multiple occurrences of the
search string, you'd have to run the command multiple times.  This
wouldn't affect your example of changing a dot and a three-letter
extension.

The manpage summary lists the command as "rename from to file", if
that helps.  In general, because of wildcard expansion by the shell,
UNIX commands (like "grep" to use a more common example) put fixed
args first and filenames last.  You can know, in the case of grep,
that you have one string argument for a regular expression to search
for, then a random-length list of files to search for it in.  For
'rename', it's two fixed arguments and a random-length list of
filenames to apply those arguments to.

I had thought that 'rename' was only a RedHat/CentOS command, and in a
literal sense, it is.  Under Debian-flavored distros, it's called
'rename.ul' (presumably to avoid conflicting with the "other" rename).
 It's part of the util-linux package so it's optional and may or may
not be on a given box depending on what packages you've installed.

ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/util-linux/

I'm not going to attempt to claim UNIX (and by way of inheritance,
Linux) isn't confusing, but I ran across it when my experience up to
that time was largely on the Commodore PET, C-64, and VAX/VMS.  I had
the same steep "learning cliff" as everyone else, but perhaps since I
started off as a programmer, I'm more of the target audience for it
than some.

-ethan


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 09:46:01 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:46:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <15CCC67B-69BA-4032-A529-4543A689708A@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 12, 11 09:53:13 am"
Message-ID: <201112121546.pBCFk10M013514@floodgap.com>

> There was a great "Get More Info" tool that I used when I used System 7
> a lot which let you very easily set type/creator codes (as well as all the
> other miscellaneous file control bits).  I'll have to find that one again,
> because it really was spectacular.  It hooked into the finder so all you
> had to do was Cmd-Opt-I.

Was it one of these?

	gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/7/v2/vs?get%20more%20info%20mac

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Everything is permissible, but not everything is expedient. -- 1 Cor 6:12 --


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 09:56:05 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:56:05 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks. 

I should have mentioned: if the video output is anything like the original Nintendo, it's going to look much better on a crappy old analog TV than anything else because of the lovely low-pass filter the loose tolerances and shoddy electronics provide. :-)


- Dave




From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 09:57:41 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:57:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Sympathy for the Jaguar was Re: MacOS X was Re: Mac/Mac Programming...
In-Reply-To: <4EE60BBF.4010204@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 12,
 11 09:12:15 am"
Message-ID: <201112121557.pBCFvflW013802@floodgap.com>

> > Well Apple put more effort into OSX then they did with their first UNIX
> > (A/UX). OSX pre 10.3.x sucks.
> 
> 10.2 was the first OS X we found production-ready for graphic arts and 
> pre-press, but Adobe and Quark had a few years of catching up to do 
> after that before they could match the stability of OS9 workflows.

Amusingly, one of the apps I require Classic for is QuarkXPress 4.x,
mostly because I am a tightwad and not interested in buying a new copy for
the relatively few times I use it (primarily for creating posters for
medical and research conventions). For that matter, Photoshop 7, the last
version that doesn't require Adobe's annoying registration process, won't
run on 10.5 even though it is Carbon and doesn't require Classic. I'm not
buying a new copy of that either if I don't have to.

10.2 was definitely the first OS X that was ready to go. 10.1 just had too
many gaps and Apple was still mucking with the internals (notice that a small
but significant set of technologies like docklets didn't make it to 10.2).

There are also at least two good reasons to run 10.2: its Classic is more
compatible with certain applications than 10.3 and 10.4, mostly games, because
its windows are not double buffered (the entertaining METAL BASIC crashes
with certain operations on 10.3 and 10.4 because of this, and the original
Mac port of DOOM flickers badly on 10.3+), and it could still mount classic
non-AFP-over-TCP volumes from the Classic Chooser. I used my 10.2.8 G4 to
mount the EtherTalk-based NetBSD IIci as a network share by mounting it in
the Chooser from Classic, a trick that doesn't work properly with 10.3 and
doesn't work at all with 10.4. If you are primarily working with Classic apps
and require OS X infrequently, 10.2 is probably your best bet. I'd still be
running it on my MDD except that I put a 1.8GHz G4 upgrade in it, which works
great with OS 9.2.2 but does NOT work with anything prior to 10.3.5 (!).
Strange that OS 9 supports 7447 G4s better than 10.2.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- TRUE HEADLINE: New Study of Obesity Looks for Larger Test Group ------------


From dgahling at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:07:05 2011
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:07:05 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>


> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.

I'm not sure what your point is here. that's the intended design.

> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
> something-dot-bar.

since when? and why not? Most of us have no problem with this.

> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.

you switch back and forth between how the GUI handles files and how the shell handles files,which one are you actually having a problem with?
the GUI can easily distinguish between x.foo and x.bar named files.then again, so can the shell.
a file extension is not a file "type"extensions as file types is a human fallacy, not a machine limitation.I regularly use files without any type of extension at all, quite easily.
also, which shell are we talking about? c-shell? korn shell? bash? zsh?some shells have "extensions" that can differentiate files based on what's after the dot,some refer to the system configurations on what those files are.some don't care what a file is called or what it's "extension" is.
the last type is the most correct, what comes after the dot is not truly an "extension"it's just part of the file name, and should be treated as such.
the days of the 8 dot 3 file naming and typing conventions are long gone.
> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.

perhaps you should go back to the teletype.

> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
The GUI is for people who don't know how to use a computer.These people should also be forced to use "driverless-cars"
Dan.

 		 	   		  

From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:12:26 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:12:26 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqF_2KaJV+RHQNK9FoKTHGoMiYX8_kfEfPGnxxF_AwXReg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_2KaJV+RHQNK9FoKTHGoMiYX8_kfEfPGnxxF_AwXReg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFuGVSZ_EuZsknCp6meG3eU7RiuvjLgrhqjMy0xrq=jEQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 15:26, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
>> OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.
>>
>> I once had my BBS software running under Mac OSX, many years ago. ?I tried
> again recently, and no dice.

When you say "your BBS s/w", do you mean that you wrote it, or that
it's a 3rd-party product that you just happen to choose?

> Back then it just used text files to store messages, and was very simple.
> ?Now it uses postgresql, Ruby 1.9, and loads of libraries. ?After a week, I
> gave up and put it on an old laptop with a busted display running Debian...
> set up time? ?Two hours. (;

I can well believe that Debian or the like would be a better server.
OTOH, were you using Mac OS X or OS X Server?

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:16:29 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:16:29 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFYuOiz6Ckw49VoFhg8h7HVPSpan=M_TS3Hq2N48b0zGA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 15:31, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12 Dec 2011, at 14:29, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
>> OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.
>
> Lucky. A lot of us have and it rarely ends well, or if it does the part in the middle is a nightmare.

If you need to run non-Aqua or non-OS X-native apps, then you're
probably running the wrong OS. It has been axiomatic for decades that
you choose the apps you need to fit your requirements, then pick the
best OS to support them and buy whatever hardware it needs.

I find OS X a great Internet client OS and a good solid productivity
platform. (I don't actually run it as such day-to-day, as I don't have
any current or recent Mac hardware - all mine are PowerPC or MC68K. I
won't pay the prices for new Macintel H/W.)

But if I wanted to build a firewall or an workgroup server, it would
not be on the shopping list at all.

Horses for courses, you know!

> The point was that your assertion that it's a 'friendly' OS is really only skin deep. Actually it's a awkward bastardisation of BSD UNIX with a friendly *GUI*.

It is a superbly friendly OS and I think its adoption figures, and the
users' responses, more than bear that out.

It's not your grandfather's Unix, nor is it Windows or Linux, and if
you need them, then no, it's a poor choice.

> I'd nominate VMS as friendly way before OS X's so-called UNIX implementation.

[Roars with laughter]

This must be some strange new usage of the word "friendly" that I
wasn't previously aware of. ;?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From dgahling at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:18:15 2011
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:18:15 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>,
 <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W2741E9A83FF1BCE884C601C9BC0@phx.gbl>


would this also work with a c64?
Dan

> Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
> From: fraveydank at gmail.com
> Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:08:10 -0500
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> 
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:
> 
> > I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks. 
> 
> Decoding composite video is a hairy task that involves a lot more than a passive adaptor.  Such devices are available (sorry, long Amazon link):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Composite-S-Video-Converter-Adapter-SPECIALTY-AV/dp/B005CV4ZH6/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_0_2
> 
> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual viewing applications get a bit ugly.  There are USB equivalents (such as EyeTV) which work nicely with the Mac as well, but they're a bit more pricy.
> 
> 
> - Dave
> 
> 
 		 	   		  

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 12 10:18:51 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:18:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112121618.LAA07057@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> The point was that your assertion that [OS X is] a 'friendly' OS is
> really only skin deep.

That's the layer at which "friendly" (of an OS) is usually meant.

> Actually it's a awkward bastardisation of BSD UNIX with a friendly
> *GUI*.

Well...more like Mach with a BSD emulation layer slapped on (and then
Aqua stuck on on top of that).  The degree to which it looks like Unix
corresponds roughly inversely to the depth to which you probe it.  It's
Unix to a casual "type a few basic commands" inspection, but the deeper
you scratch beneath the surface, as either admin or programmer, the
less Unixy it looks.

And, yes, Aqua is very novice-friendly (which is what most people who
use "friendly" of OSes without qualification seem to mean;
`user-friendly' is a pretty meaningless term without some indication of
what sort of user is under consideration).  But that's part of the OS,
and the part most of their users interact with almost(?) all of the
time, so I don't think it's wrong to consider that relevant here.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:21:11 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:21:11 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 14:22, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
>> absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>
> I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple for
> removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
> concern).
>
> The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate this
> consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
> set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain files to
> automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a time
> OS X gave you the choice.

Definitely. One of the many areas where OS X is poorer than "classic"
MacOS was. I also miss the old Finder, the customisable Apple menu,
Drawers and the System folder that you could productively furtle
around in.

OTOH, OS X delivers a very solid OS with great dev tools, a fantastic
array of apps, including lots of FOSS (because it's Unix underneath)
and solid networking, filesystems support and so on.

I miss a lot of the old stuff, but overall, it was worth it.

And it saved the company, too, which isn't incidental.

Even people who never use Apple S/W or H/W benefit because of the
competition it provides for the PC-compatible industry, from MICROS~1
to Ubuntu.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:23:16 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:23:16 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A24F91D7-AD9B-46E5-8FCC-06F232AC2D8B@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 10:31 AM, Mark Benson wrote:

> On 12 Dec 2011, at 14:29, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
>> OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.
> 
> Lucky. A lot of us have and it rarely ends well, or if it does the part in the middle is a nightmare.

It really depends.  It's actually a nice UNIX underneath; I use it for all my embedded development work that can use GCC.  I also write a lot in Python and use a lot of open-source tools that operate off the command line; generally I have at least four terminal windows open at any given time.  If you're not *looking* to use the console, yes, it's probably a nightmare (my typical customer response to seeing the Terminal is "what are you DOING don't you know that can BREAK the computer").

> The point was that your assertion that it's a 'friendly' OS is really only skin deep. Actually it's a awkward bastardisation of BSD UNIX with a friendly *GUI*.

It's actually a pretty straightforward userland port of BSD running on a different kernel.  Not a lot of bastardization about it.  And if you're programming in Cocoa (derived from NeXTSTEP), you seldom if ever have to deal with the UNIX layer of the userland.  I'd call it a good bit more than skin-deep.

> I'd nominate VMS as friendly way before OS X's so-called UNIX implementation.

It's all subjective in the end.  I've only just started using VMS, and there are things I like and things I don't like about it relative to UNIX.  It's all extremely foreign to me, so I'm trying hard to reserve judgement on things I don't like just because they're not what I expect.


- Dave




From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:23:08 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:23:08 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF=m3km69JCVAos054t8T-LNOqqr03QO42R3WaywJfMFg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 15:34, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
>> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
>> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
>
> Well yes, and that's the key, isn't it? ?I think the single most infuriating part of Windows to me is that the system configuration isn't in human-readable text files, it's in inscrutable key/value pairs in a giant global registry. ?It makes it impossible to have any real kind of manual control over the operation of the system unless you are a warlock. ?On Linux and OS X, you can almost always edit a text file somewhere that will be vaguely understandable even if you've never seen it.

On Linux, yes - if you can find it and then if you can parse the
format, as there is no standard at all and it ranges from INI files
(as used by Samba) to early pre-Demotic hieroglyphs transcribed in
Minoan Linear A and then written in early Sumerian cuneiform (e.g.,
Sendmail.cf).

But OS X? If it's in a file it's probably XML but the chances are it's
in netinfo somewhere...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 10:25:01 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:25:01 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFrLaTSV1n2Lwg5obYuSc0AGzT1KuP5mt6yx=0yqrarJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 3:34 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> Classic Mac OS had binary preference files, but half the time they could
> be easily modified with ResEdit, and with very few exceptions, most
> applications could at least handle having their preference files deleted as
> basically performing a "factory reset".
>
> We had a procedure for that at the Mac Shop.  We could almost always
repair a old (system 7-9 era) "clean" install, and restore all the users
settings before the System munched itself.

...and, you could usually easily work out which "extension" was knackering
the thing up...

..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think Apple
would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)


-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:25:13 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:25:13 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmNj2aT13qNoLD9g4fBV3Rfn6TVBm-_m_Y9k2=zY-=C9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimnHOaaVLkQw=a4V797ZonEpHrj7qv=Br5TZqK4O65K4+Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCE+oVN07wpc4eCMT+Q6G=bzvdai_wo-TFtQ8O4L_PngRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmNj2aT13qNoLD9g4fBV3Rfn6TVBm-_m_Y9k2=zY-=C9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCE_opAXznK_aJFGT5Q6Zr7hsYEXaCaCSpWpYBwn4cWKwA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 15:41, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 8:06 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12 December 2011 03:27, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> For instance, I frequently need to do things like:
>>>>
>>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>>
>>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>>
>>> On RedHat, this should work...
>>>
>>> rename .log .old *.log
>>>
>>
>> Would that not look for 2 files, called dot-log and dot-old?
>
> Nope. ?The binary 'rename' command (not the Perl script) ?takes N
> args, the first is what string to look for in a filename, the second
> string is what to replace it with, and 3-N are filenames to change
> (including a list generated by the shell expanding a wildcard). ?It's
> not recursive, so if you wanted to change multiple occurrences of the
> search string, you'd have to run the command multiple times. ?This
> wouldn't affect your example of changing a dot and a three-letter
> extension.
>
> The manpage summary lists the command as "rename from to file", if
> that helps. ?In general, because of wildcard expansion by the shell,
> UNIX commands (like "grep" to use a more common example) put fixed
> args first and filenames last. ?You can know, in the case of grep,
> that you have one string argument for a regular expression to search
> for, then a random-length list of files to search for it in. ?For
> 'rename', it's two fixed arguments and a random-length list of
> filenames to apply those arguments to.
>
> I had thought that 'rename' was only a RedHat/CentOS command, and in a
> literal sense, it is. ?Under Debian-flavored distros, it's called
> 'rename.ul' (presumably to avoid conflicting with the "other" rename).
> ?It's part of the util-linux package so it's optional and may or may
> not be on a given box depending on what packages you've installed.
>
> ftp://ftp.kernel.org/pub/linux/utils/util-linux/

Blimey. Well, TFTI, as they say - I shall investigate!

> I'm not going to attempt to claim UNIX (and by way of inheritance,
> Linux) isn't confusing, but I ran across it when my experience up to
> that time was largely on the Commodore PET, C-64, and VAX/VMS. ?I had
> the same steep "learning cliff" as everyone else, but perhaps since I
> started off as a programmer, I'm more of the target audience for it
> than some.

[Nod]

It's one of those things. I admire it, I love what Linux has achieved
and it's my chosen day-to-day productivity OS as well as that which I
work with.

OTOH, I still don't grok it and I think I never will. It's nearly
2012. I want a computer that reads my mind, not one whose language I
have to speak.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From IanK at vulcan.com  Mon Dec 12 10:32:28 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:32:28 +0000
Subject: Unix as a tool (was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/11/11 8:25 PM, "Alexander Schreiber" <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:

>[snip]
>Hehe. If you are in the programmer/systems engineering mindset, it is
>all perfectly logical and is in fact an incredible powerful tool. If you
>are not ... well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
>boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)

Are you accusing me of mumbling?  :-)  -- Ian




From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 10:58:11 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:58:11 -0700
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free
 - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw at mail.gmail.com>,
    Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:

> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.

Really?

Because for me, learning about new systems is about the only thing
that keeps my job interesting and keeps this hobby interesting.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 11:12:10 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:12:10 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <430731753-1323709933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1571318746-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Thanks for all the replies so far. Please note my original message, I do not have a television. I prefer to buy or build an adapter if that is possible. I looked at the amazon link but it talks about HDMI (none of my monitors support it afaik, they are all dvi and dsib) and S-video. I don't know what S-video is either. Obviously the old COCO I have is not going to be used for any demanding video, but it does support color. Thanks again.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:56:05 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

On Dec 12, 2011, at 6:51 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks. 

I should have mentioned: if the video output is anything like the original Nintendo, it's going to look much better on a crappy old analog TV than anything else because of the lovely low-pass filter the loose tolerances and shoddy electronics provide. :-)


- Dave





From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 11:15:24 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:15:24 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>

> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
> nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
> viewing applications get a bit ugly.

I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
connections?


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Dec 12 11:26:24 2011
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:26:24 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>


On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote:

> 
>> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
>> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is here. that's the intended design.

It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char] format for a file name.  Unix has no such restrictions.  I often create file names flubber.fubar.gorp.baz or sometimes just blort.  About the only thing that the various Unix shells do is that a file name starting with a '.' are treated special (actually it's 'ls' that does).  These are often looked upon as "hidden" files.  Usually because they contain configuration information for the shell or some other program.  Examples: .bashrc, .cshrc, .emacs, .ssh (for an entire directory), etc.

> 
>> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
>> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
>> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
>> something-dot-bar.
> 
> since when? and why not? Most of us have no problem with this.

I agree.  Why do I want the shell to impose something on the naming of a file?
> 
>> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
>> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
>> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
>> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
>> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
>> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.
> 
> you switch back and forth between how the GUI handles files and how the shell handles files,which one are you actually having a problem with?
> the GUI can easily distinguish between x.foo and x.bar named files.then again, so can the shell.
> a file extension is not a file "type"extensions as file types is a human fallacy, not a machine limitation.I regularly use files without any type of extension at all, quite easily.
> also, which shell are we talking about? c-shell? korn shell? bash? zsh?some shells have "extensions" that can differentiate files based on what's after the dot,some refer to the system configurations on what those files are.some don't care what a file is called or what it's "extension" is.
> the last type is the most correct, what comes after the dot is not truly an "extension"it's just part of the file name, and should be treated as such.
> the days of the 8 dot 3 file naming and typing conventions are long gone.

Actually it's just by convention and maybe not completely.  There's absolutely *no* reason that I can't name files as: jpeg.pict1, jpeg.pict2, etc.  Or even jpeg-pic1, pic2-jpeg.  To find all of the files that I've named with "jpeg", I could just reference them by "*jpeg*".  I don't even have to care what separator character (if any) was used.  About the only convention that's really imposed by the OS is '.' & '..'.

What I don't understand is the belief that the unix wildcard is difficult.  "*" is powerful and unlike in Microsoft OS's, can appear anywhere in the name for pattern matching (i.e. *foo*baz* will match any file names that have "foo" and "baz" appearing in them in that order).  Yes, to build more complex patterns you need to understand regular expressions (but even then regular expressions aren't that difficult) but I'd argue for anything you'd likely be doing in a GUI, "*" is sufficient.

>> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.

I'd argue in many cases that what some folks call progress is really a step backwards.  Many powerful concepts were developed early and what some folks call progress is a "dumbing down" and removal of features because they couldn't be explained to the masses easily.

> 
>> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
>> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
>> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
> The GUI is for people who don't know how to use a computer.These people should also be forced to use "driverless-cars"

*sigh*  OK, here's where Dan and I part company.  I use a GUI all the time.  Sometimes it's the best/easiest way to do something when I don't want to have to deal with (remembering) the intricacies of a particular feature/function.  However, a poorly implemented/thought out GUI is the devil's spawn and can make a CLI a much better alternative.  The alternative is also true, you can have CLIs that are so complex that tracking all of the options can be a job in and of itself.  Sometimes a GUI wrapper can make those cases much easier to deal with.

TTFN - Guy	 	   		  




From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Dec 12 11:32:36 2011
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:32:36 -0800
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFYuOiz6Ckw49VoFhg8h7HVPSpan=M_TS3Hq2N48b0zGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFYuOiz6Ckw49VoFhg8h7HVPSpan=M_TS3Hq2N48b0zGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BD818B37-1C46-4AD0-8CAC-89E736CD0DC9@shiresoft.com>


On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 12 December 2011 15:31, Mark Benson <md.benson at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 12 Dec 2011, at 14:29, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> I am sure you're right. I have never tried, personally, despite using
>>> OS X for a decade now. Never encountered the need.
>> 
>> Lucky. A lot of us have and it rarely ends well, or if it does the part in the middle is a nightmare.
> 
> If you need to run non-Aqua or non-OS X-native apps, then you're
> probably running the wrong OS. It has been axiomatic for decades that
> you choose the apps you need to fit your requirements, then pick the
> best OS to support them and buy whatever hardware it needs.
> 
> I find OS X a great Internet client OS and a good solid productivity
> platform. (I don't actually run it as such day-to-day, as I don't have
> any current or recent Mac hardware - all mine are PowerPC or MC68K. I
> won't pay the prices for new Macintel H/W.)
> 
> But if I wanted to build a firewall or an workgroup server, it would
> not be on the shopping list at all.
> 
> Horses for courses, you know!
> 
>> The point was that your assertion that it's a 'friendly' OS is really only skin deep. Actually it's a awkward bastardisation of BSD UNIX with a friendly *GUI*.
> 
> It is a superbly friendly OS and I think its adoption figures, and the
> users' responses, more than bear that out.
> 
> It's not your grandfather's Unix, nor is it Windows or Linux, and if
> you need them, then no, it's a poor choice.
> 
>> I'd nominate VMS as friendly way before OS X's so-called UNIX implementation.
> 
> [Roars with laughter]
> 
> This must be some strange new usage of the word "friendly" that I
> wasn't previously aware of. ;?)

OK, OS X's "so-called" UNIX implementation is actually UNIX (unlike some other OS's I can name).  It actually passed the X/Open groups UNIX standardization test suite.  You can count on one hand (and have fingers left over) for the number of Unix-like systems that have passed that.  Because of trademarking, you can't actually call an OS as UNIX unless it has passed the X/Open suite.  At best all you can say is that it's Unix-like.  That puts *all* the Linux distributions, plus all of the BSD variants into that category (i.e. not actually UNIX).

TTFN - Guy


From db at db.net  Mon Dec 12 11:36:53 2011
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:36:53 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20111212173653.GA20432@night.db.net>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:07:05AM -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> 
> > They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
> > some text after the dot and it's a valid name.
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is here. that's the intended design.

Good grief. Anyone who has ever used VMS knows how evil file extensions
are. 

- Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?


From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 11:44:02 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:44:02 -0700
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw at mail.gmail.com>,
    Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:

> OS X delivers a very solid OS with great dev tools [...]

Seriously?

If you think Xcode is "great dev tools", then you need to get out more.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 11:52:49 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:52:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqFrLaTSV1n2Lwg5obYuSc0AGzT1KuP5mt6yx=0yqrarJA@mail.gmail.com> from
 John Many Jars at "Dec 12, 11 04:25:01 pm"
Message-ID: <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>

> ..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think Apple
> would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)

So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "I ... I love you!" "Oh noo! I don't!" -- Awful movie, "Ranma 1/2" ---------


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 11:54:02 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:54:02 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W2741E9A83FF1BCE884C601C9BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>,
 <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W2741E9A83FF1BCE884C601C9BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <EDB16309-1FC1-49C3-A91F-2DAC59AED954@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote:

>> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual viewing applications get a bit ugly.  There are USB equivalents (such as EyeTV) which work nicely with the Mac as well, but they're a bit more pricy.
> 
> would this also work with a c64?

Well, yes... anything with a composite output (some modern input cards lack antenna inputs for composite, since it's basically obsolete, but try finding an older one; I've found bt848/878-based cards to work just fine for playing video games, and they work great with Linux.  CX2388x-based cards are a nice step up, and can still be found relatively cheaply.

Be warned that some newer devices (possibly including the converter box I linked, I've never tested it) may balk at the signals coming from older machines.  For example, my old roommate had an A/V receiver that wouldn't even lock on the signal from an Apple ][ or an old NES because the signals weren't strictly to spec, while my newish LCD TV sort of accepts them but with a lot of problems.  The older analog TVs have no such problem because of the loose tolerances to which they were designed (ah, the joys of analog).

If you have the option of S-Video output (SNES/N64 have this, and I think the C64's graphics chip has a luma/chroma output that could probably be adapted to S-Video, but I don't have one so I couldn't say) you will get a MUCH better picture simply because the process of combining the luma and chroma signals into a composite signal is very difficult to reverse well (especially for NTSC).

- Dave


- Dave




From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 12:05:15 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:05:15 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFYuOiz6Ckw49VoFhg8h7HVPSpan=M_TS3Hq2N48b0zGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFYuOiz6Ckw49VoFhg8h7HVPSpan=M_TS3Hq2N48b0zGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqEzgD1Tw5zBSgXDOkO9HfBEF0QYsiutYHu6aZUdG-W-=w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> If you need to run non-Aqua or non-OS X-native apps, then you're
> probably running the wrong OS. It has been axiomatic for decades that
> you choose the apps you need to fit your requirements, then pick the
> best OS to support them and buy whatever hardware it needs.
>
>
Well, yeah.  I did just that.  I used Debian instead.  It would have
been convenient if they ran on OSX, I could run one less computer.. save
power, that sort of thing.

However, I think it *should* work

I got my dad (who is 80) to buy a Mac, thinking that he could use it.  No
luck. (;

-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From snhirsch at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 12:07:50 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:07:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W2741E9A83FF1BCE884C601C9BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>,
 <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W2741E9A83FF1BCE884C601C9BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112121305400.2480@duo>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote:

>
> would this also work with a c64?

C64s already have separate chroma and luminance output.  I built an 
adapter and plug mine directly into an S-Video monitor input.


-- 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 12:23:17 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:23:17 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <430731753-1323709933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1571318746-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>
 <430731753-1323709933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1571318746-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <231BECBE-0F2B-434F-AC9A-A25A7B166DC4@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:12 PM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies so far. Please note my original message, I do not have a television. I prefer to buy or build an adapter if that is possible. I looked at the amazon link but it talks about HDMI (none of my monitors support it afaik, they are all dvi and dsib) and S-video. I don't know what S-video is either. Obviously the old COCO I have is not going to be used for any demanding video, but it does support color. Thanks again.

HDMI should be passively convertible to DVI (someone correct me if that's not true when it carries audio information; thus far, it's worked fine for me).

S-Video is the next step up from composite, with the luma (brightness) and chroma (color) information separated out.  It may not be popular in the UK (though I seem to recall the SCART connector has some pins for it).  It will give you a much better picture than composite video if you have the option.  Typically it's a round mini-DIN connector with 4 pins and a plastic alignment bit.

- Dave




From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 12:29:08 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:29:08 +0000
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

>
> In article <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=
> JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw at mail.gmail.com>,
>    Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>
> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
is fun.  Ah, the real days of low security....)
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 12:30:14 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:30:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net> from
 "vintagecoder@aol.com" at "Dec 12, 11 05:15:24 pm"
Message-ID: <201112121830.pBCIUEhX016770@floodgap.com>

> > Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
> > nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
> > viewing applications get a bit ugly.
> 
> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> connections?

Yes. Many (even most) of them have composite inputs, and some even have
S-video inputs. I used an Aurora Fuse card for this in my MDD until I got
a FireWire Canopus ADVC-300.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Everything is permissible, but not everything is expedient. -- 1 Cor 6:12 --


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 12 12:30:29 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:30:29 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <430731753-1323709933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1571318746-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <4EE5D7C5.26055.2CB2B0@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 17:12, Vintage Coder wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies so far. Please note my original message, I
> do not have a television. I prefer to buy or build an adapter if that
> is possible. I looked at the amazon link but it talks about HDMI (none
> of my monitors support it afaik, they are all dvi and dsib) and
> S-video. I don't know what S-video is either. Obviously the old COCO I
> have is not going to be used for any demanding video, but it does
> support color. Thanks again.

Probably close to 20 years ago, I expressed an interest in being able 
to view PAL VHS tapes here in NTSC-land.  A friend from the UK sent 
me a PAL VHS player and I tracked down a fellow who made PAL-to-RGB 
decoder kits.  I found that my Mitsubishi Diamond Scan monitor would 
display the RGB just fine. 

I still have the plans for the kit and can forward them on, if it 
would help.

--Chuck



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 12:38:58 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:38:58 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <3F577317-7719-4004-AC5B-BB57D3900381@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:15 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:

>> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
>> nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
>> viewing applications get a bit ugly.
> 
> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> connections?

Often enough, yes.  You just need to look for the appropriate ports; some of the REALLY cheap ones only have a tuner and nothing else.  I really liked the AVI TV Wonder that I have (CX2388x-based, red PCB); it had a little purple breakout box with the composite, S-Video and audio connections so that everything else could fit on the card bracket.

For Linux, my best luck has been with bt848/878 (almost the same chip) followed by CX2388x (the next step up after Conexant bought Brooktree; there are newer chips in the series that support e.g. PCI Express, but I don't know their level of support under Linux).  There are a handful of Philips chips supported, but I've never tried them.

The Windows viewing apps that come with the cards are almost universally terrible, but a good third-party one I've used is DScaler (it's been a while since I've fooled around with it, though, and they were going through a major project renovation, so it could be either better or worse by now).

For Linux, I always preferred fbtv, but most people don't like fooling around with the framebuffer layer any more than they have to.  I really liked the ability the framebuffer layer gave me to create custom graphics modes with weird sizes and fixed frequencies that optimized the experience; alas, none of that is likely to work well without an analog monitor anymore.  I also liked being able to just start the viewer without having to start X.  I don't know what the general favorite is for operating it under X; when I was using it, it was xawtv.  I imagine that MythTV probably has a Video4Linux backend?


- Dave





From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 12:44:49 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:44:49 -0700
Subject: Apollo Domain/OS programming?
Message-ID: <E1RaArp-0002uG-Ju@shell.xmission.com>

I was reviewing the Domain System Call Reference on bitsavers
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/apollo/007196-01_Domain_System_Call_Reference_Jan87.pdf>
and was browsing the PAD (Display Manager) section.

Has anyone here done any GUI programming on Domain/OS?  I'd like to
understand the programming model better.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 12 12:48:36 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:48:36 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE64C84.5070408@brouhaha.com>

Vintage Coder wrote:
 > I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television.
 > What are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a
 > display? Is there a device to convert the TV out from those
 > computers to D-Sub or dare to dream, DVI? What do you call
 > such a converter? Thanks.

David Riley wrote:
 > Decoding composite video is a hairy task that involves a lot
 > more than a passive adaptor. Such devices are available
 > (sorry, long Amazon link):

For the Color Computer and Color Computer 2, there's even more to it 
than that.  Those computers did not provide a baseband composite video 
output; they *only* had modulated RF out.  You would have to either 
modify them to add composite video output (not too hard), or use a 
demodulator in addition to the composite-to-VGA adapter.



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 12 12:49:38 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:49:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <201112121849.NAA08774@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

[Please don't use paragraph-length lines.]

> About the only thing that the various Unix shells do is that a file
> name starting with a '.' are treated special (actually it's 'ls' that
> does).

Most shells do too; for example, "*foo*" usually will not match a file
named ".xfooy", because of the leading dot.

> What I don't understand is the belief that the unix wildcard is
> difficult.

I don't understand why, but apparently it _is_ difficult for a lot of
people.

> Yes, to build more complex patterns you need to understand regular
> expressions

Shell glob patterns aren't regular expressions, at least not in any
shell I've ever seen.

> I'd argue in many cases that what some folks call progress is really
> a step backwards.  Many powerful concepts were developed early and
> what some folks call progress is a "dumbing down" and removal of
> features because they couldn't be explained to the masses easily.

When you're building stuf for the masses, that _is_ progress.  And
that's what a lot of people are doing.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 12:51:24 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:51:24 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <200CABB1-A4C0-4AB7-80E2-CCEF1798222F@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:26 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

>> The GUI is for people who don't know how to use a computer.These people should also be forced to use "driverless-cars"
> 
> *sigh*  OK, here's where Dan and I part company.  I use a GUI all the time.  Sometimes it's the best/easiest way to do something when I don't want to have to deal with (remembering) the intricacies of a particular feature/function.  However, a poorly implemented/thought out GUI is the devil's spawn and can make a CLI a much better alternative.  The alternative is also true, you can have CLIs that are so complex that tracking all of the options can be a job in and of itself.  Sometimes a GUI wrapper can make those cases much easier to deal with.

I'm with you on that; it's all in how you present the information.

We did a project at work a while ago for a satellite TV company making a test equipment PCI card.  I wrote the FPGA, the driver and the userland interface library, so I had to write a bunch of test programs.  Those test programs turned into the programs we used to manipulate the card in the lab to do the functional testing as well, and the client ended up using it to do day-to-day operations before the testing began.  One guy said that the command-line utilities were a lot more useful (because they were more complete and flexible) and available way quicker than the GUIs they'd gotten from most of the major manufacturers.

That's just a case of bad design on the vendors' parts, of course; I could have made a GUI layer on top of the library (and it's easier now with Python and Qt than it was 5 years ago) and made it sufficiently complete, largely because I don't assume my customers are idiots and "hide" functionality that gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot.

On the other hand, my current project involves a lot of things that need to happen continuously and in real-time, so it's a heavily multithreaded application with a large pile of buttons, knobs and text fields.  I could do the same in a CLI, and our original testbed was one, but the volume of information that needed to be conveyed rapidly expanded beyond what one could efficiently do with just a CLI.  The current interface is friendly enough for uninitiated Navy lab techs to use, but it doesn't hide anything; literally anything that can be twiddled is available to be twiddled.  There's even a tab for doing raw register reads and writes because honestly, sometimes you just need to do that and there's no reason to pretend otherwise for the sake of "simplicity".

GUIs aren't for people who don't know how to use computers, and I think that dangerous assumption is primarily what drives terrible GUI design these days.  If you assume your users are idiots and try to design around them, not even the smart people will be able to make use of your thing.


- Dave




From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 12:52:35 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:52:35 -0700
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <E1RaAzL-0004lF-5r@shell.xmission.com>


In article <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB at shiresoft.com>,
    Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> writes:

> It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
> Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [3-letter extension format]

Wait, you mean the limitation that is present on RSTS/E, RT-11,
RSX-11, TOPS-10, TOPS-20 (and probably a bunch more DEC OSes) and
CP/M?

In other words: this mental model of a 3-letter file extension was
around LONG before Microsoft.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:05:40 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:05:40 -0500
Subject: Unix as a tool (was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimngXSjEwmK3CfnXjRe7Sv1K_XugRdp8Rf=H9ZWfZNFHZA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12/11/11 8:25 PM, "Alexander Schreiber" <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
>... If you are not ...
>well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
>boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)

My cauldron does not smoke (I have a proper vent on it).

-ethan


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:07:18 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:07:18 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Richard wrote:

>> OS X delivers a very solid OS with great dev tools [...]
> 
> Seriously?
> 
> If you think Xcode is "great dev tools", then you need to get out more.

I feel like XCode used to be *better* dev tools.  Honestly, I was most fond of medium-early versions of CodeWarrior (before OS X, before OS 9, really; the early "pro" versions), though that may be nostalgia talking more than accurate recollection.  XCode, like everything else, seems to have bloated and gotten creaky with age (and I think the UI overhaul in 4.0 was a major step backwards).

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:08:46 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:08:46 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>
References: <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>> ..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think Apple
>> would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)
> 
> So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P

I always hotplugged the SCSI cable, though I'm perfectly aware that's a terrible idea (and was then, too).  I seem to recall being able to jimmy it into the system to mount using SCSIProbe after that.

- Dave




From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:22:11 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:22:11 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqEzgD1Tw5zBSgXDOkO9HfBEF0QYsiutYHu6aZUdG-W-=w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqF_aJgHBukKgEEjiCHh2SvUHgJN3CEbvbRK5iQmexgELg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFHHPUk_KyFCFm=MYXA4K23vaOQEA3GP5CR6q7+E_USDA@mail.gmail.com>
 <FCC75873-52CA-4770-A0E2-EAE3BBC8C37D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFYuOiz6Ckw49VoFhg8h7HVPSpan=M_TS3Hq2N48b0zGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEvVyqEzgD1Tw5zBSgXDOkO9HfBEF0QYsiutYHu6aZUdG-W-=w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHJ02XhBTFXbQOj0CiByF3YO-EQJ7BjByup784r1rsDTw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 18:05, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> If you need to run non-Aqua or non-OS X-native apps, then you're
>> probably running the wrong OS. It has been axiomatic for decades that
>> you choose the apps you need to fit your requirements, then pick the
>> best OS to support them and buy whatever hardware it needs.
>>
>>
> Well, yeah. ?I did just that. ?I used Debian instead. ?It would have
> been convenient if they ran on OSX, I could run one less computer.. save
> power, that sort of thing.

Depending upon what Mac you have, it's perfectly possible to
dual-boot. For instance, my Mac Mini G4 triple-boots OS X 10.4, 10.5
and MorphOS - and Ubuntu on a LiveCD.

> However, I think it *should* work
>
> I got my dad (who is 80) to buy a Mac, thinking that he could use it. ?No
> luck. (;

If you will forgive me a blatant plug:
http://www.simplicitycomputers.co.uk/

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:29:55 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:29:55 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHZGVdumoA6s4Xi3-rzFx-5Vt6w=tdXF7GemXsgruJExw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 16:07, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
>> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.
>
> I'm not sure what your point is here. that's the intended design.
>
>> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
>> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
>> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
>> something-dot-bar.
>
> since when? and why not? Most of us have no problem with this.
>
>> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
>> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
>> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
>> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
>> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
>> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.
>
> you switch back and forth between how the GUI handles files and how the shell handles files,which one are you actually having a problem with?
> the GUI can easily distinguish between x.foo and x.bar named files.then again, so can the shell.
> a file extension is not a file "type"extensions as file types is a human fallacy, not a machine limitation.I regularly use files without any type of extension at all, quite easily.
> also, which shell are we talking about? c-shell? korn shell? bash? zsh?some shells have "extensions" that can differentiate files based on what's after the dot,some refer to the system configurations on what those files are.some don't care what a file is called or what it's "extension" is.
> the last type is the most correct, what comes after the dot is not truly an "extension"it's just part of the file name, and should be treated as such.
> the days of the 8 dot 3 file naming and typing conventions are long gone.
>> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.
>
> perhaps you should go back to the teletype.
>
>> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
>> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
>> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
> The GUI is for people who don't know how to use a computer.These people should also be forced to use "driverless-cars"

I was going to start trying to reply to this until I got to the last
line, when I realised that you weren't here for the hunting, as the
saying goes. (http://www.top20fun.com/funny_jokes/1465.html for those
unfamiliar with the joke.)

I realise it's an unusual and unpopular view, but personally, I prefer
the DOS/Win9x/NT command line to the Unix one. OK, true, the Unix one
has lots more tools, many of them very useful, but the MICROS~1
actually tends to be more useful to me. I am sure Unix wildcards and
regexps are immensely useful, but generally, for the stuff I want to
do as a sysadmin and general support guy, I find the MS versions just
deliver with a lot less work.

Yes, this does imply that even after some 22y of working with Unix
boxen, I've not really grokked the shell and I probably never will -
but I think that also makes some strong points about how accessible
the Unix shell is.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:30:53 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:30:53 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <1323701292.68413.YahooMailClassic@web45104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1323701292.68413.YahooMailClassic@web45104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ0aWzpwU+f-fF7nt6V-M90oBWsJWdx0XDg0gPyCuC1zA@mail.gmail.com>

It might be difficult to build something equivalent to the AVR Scope Clock
from scratch for less than $30 by the time you're all done, if this
hardware is suitable for your needs.

http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9306

I don't have one of these myself yet but I should buy one to make use of my
Tek X-Y monitor.


From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 13:34:19 2011
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:34:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The National Museum of Computing enjoys tablet resurrection of BBC
 Domesday Proj
Message-ID: <7634.84f387d.3c17b13a@aol.com>

The National Museum of Computing enjoys tablet resurrection of BBC Domesday 
 Project | Culture24 
In 1986, to mark the 900th anniversary of the Domesday  Book, the BBC 
launched the Domesday Project, a then-pioneering campaign where  the public could 
submit pictures and insights on their local area which were  then etched 
onto immortal laserdiscs.

High costs and technological  advances meant the project was never fully 
realised in spite of its futuristic  ambitions, but last April BBC Learning 
resurrected the project by making the  archives accessible online.

_http://bit.ly/tA7ueH_ (http://bit.ly/tA7ueH) 


Thanks,

Ed Sharpe, Archivist for SMECC  

See the Museum's Web Site at _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) 



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 13:40:38 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:40:38 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqGxBcE3xOUP-_MOXXCLk1_yBSBwxgcLqYpcMjcmzA-gpA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

>
> In article <CAMTenCHj=
> KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw at mail.gmail.com>,
>    Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
>
> > OS X delivers a very solid OS with great dev tools [...]
>
> Seriously?
>
> If you think Xcode is "great dev tools", then you need to get out more.


With Objective-C.  Ick!  I think it's madness.  Madness that I'm expected
to d/l some massive thing (and expected to pay for it?  I think they've
started charging... when I can just apt-get the tools on debian.
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 13:41:24 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:41:24 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>
References: <CAEvVyqFrLaTSV1n2Lwg5obYuSc0AGzT1KuP5mt6yx=0yqrarJA@mail.gmail.com>
 <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqF8FpeqbFuEUm=+ZOM-UEpfW6rvxFXoMT+zchW5AYs6vQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 5:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>wrote:

> > ..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think
> Apple
> > would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)
>
> So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P
>

You unplug the hard drive, put the CD in ... boot up... As soon as the
happy mac face shows up, quickly (and evenly) plug in the hard drive.

(;

>
> --
> ------------------------------------ personal:
> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> ckaiser at floodgap.com
> -- "I ... I love you!" "Oh noo! I don't!" -- Awful movie, "Ranma 1/2"
> ---------
>



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:43:00 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:43:00 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 17:26, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 8:07 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
>
>>
>>> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
>>> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.
>>
>> I'm not sure what your point is here. that's the intended design.
>
> It's even more general than that. ?Many folks have fallen into the Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char] format for a file name. ?Unix has no such restrictions. ?I often create file names flubber.fubar.gorp.baz or sometimes just blort. ?About the only thing that the various Unix shells do is that a file name starting with a '.' are treated special (actually it's 'ls' that does). ?These are often looked upon as "hidden" files. ?Usually because they contain configuration information for the shell or some other program. ?Examples: .bashrc, .cshrc, .emacs, .ssh (for an entire directory), etc.
>
>>
>>> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
>>> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
>>> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
>>> something-dot-bar.
>>
>> since when? and why not? Most of us have no problem with this.
>
> I agree. ?Why do I want the shell to impose something on the naming of a file?

Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
made a comeback.

As to file extensions: well, much as I liked the classic MacOS system,
with strong, meaningful file metadata, even if hidden, the plain old
file-extension system works fairly well. Everything /isn't/ just a
stream of bytes any more and modern Unix doesn't just handle text
files, it handles HTML and XML and images and sounds and
vector-graphics and video and much more besides, in multiple languages
and writing systems.

Yes, true, the old three-letter extensions were very limiting, and
MICROS~1 itself has been trying to move away from them for years, but
it's still quite handy, and most people can readily learn what ".doc"
or ".xls" means, for instance.

They're never going to go away until storage is abstracted away
altogether and actual filesystems disappear, I think.

So, in the meantime, embrace them and work with them, that is my attitude.

>>> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
>>> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
>>> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
>>> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
>>> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
>>> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.
>>
>> you switch back and forth between how the GUI handles files and how the shell handles files,which one are you actually having a problem with?

In general, today, with bash on Linux. It's OK, it works, but for
actual file management - moving, renaming, etc. - I tend to use
Nautilus, which behaves much like any file manager on any system.
Shell doesn't.

>> the GUI can easily distinguish between x.foo and x.bar named files.then again, so can the shell.
>> a file extension is not a file "type"extensions as file types is a human fallacy, not a machine limitation.I regularly use files without any type of extension at all, quite easily.
>> also, which shell are we talking about? c-shell? korn shell? bash? zsh?some shells have "extensions" that can differentiate files based on what's after the dot,some refer to the system configurations on what those files are.some don't care what a file is called or what it's "extension" is.
>> the last type is the most correct, what comes after the dot is not truly an "extension"it's just part of the file name, and should be treated as such.
>> the days of the 8 dot 3 file naming and typing conventions are long gone.
>
> Actually it's just by convention and maybe not completely. ?There's absolutely *no* reason that I can't name files as: jpeg.pict1, jpeg.pict2, etc. ?Or even jpeg-pic1, pic2-jpeg. ?To find all of the files that I've named with "jpeg", I could just reference them by "*jpeg*". ?I don't even have to care what separator character (if any) was used. ?About the only convention that's really imposed by the OS is '.' & '..'.

Absolutely.

But then email 'em to a Windows user, or quite possibly a Mac user,
and it all falls over... :?)

> Yes, to build more complex patterns you need to understand regular expressions (but even then regular expressions aren't that difficult)

I beg to differ!

> but I'd argue for anything you'd likely be doing in a GUI, "*" is sufficient.

Go on then, tell me how, with a single command - no FOR loops, no
pipes etc. - I could, say, move all my Bittorrent seed files to a
subfolder in my home directory but all the actual resultant downloads
to a folder on a bigger partition on a different drive.

In Nautilus, I'd do it with sort-by-type, block select, drag, then
sort-by-size, block select, drag somewhere else.

>>> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.
>
> I'd argue in many cases that what some folks call progress is really a step backwards. ?Many powerful concepts were developed early and what some folks call progress is a "dumbing down" and removal of features because they couldn't be explained to the masses easily.

In many cases, yes. I think we're about to see it again as we
transition from "desktops" controlled by mice to slate-type computers
directly controlled with finger-driven multi-touch and gestural
interfaces on slate computers.

The howls of protest are already beginning, as familiar but
Microsoft-encumbered visual metaphors such as taskbars and start menus
are disappearing from the Linux desktop.

>>> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
>>> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
>>> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
>> The GUI is for people who don't know how to use a computer.These people should also be forced to use "driverless-cars"
>
> *sigh* ?OK, here's where Dan and I part company. ?I use a GUI all the time. ?Sometimes it's the best/easiest way to do something when I don't want to have to deal with (remembering) the intricacies of a particular feature/function. ?However, a poorly implemented/thought out GUI is the devil's spawn and can make a CLI a much better alternative. ?The alternative is also true, you can have CLIs that are so complex that tracking all of the options can be a job in and of itself. ?Sometimes a GUI wrapper can make those cases much easier to deal with.

True!

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 12 13:44:17 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:44:17 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>,
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <4EE5E911.10152.7044E7@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 9:26, Guy Sotomayor wrote:

> It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
> Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char]
> format for a file name.  Unix has no such restrictions. 

No, and that's a weakness.  As much as I'm not used to admitting 
Apple superiority, the resource fork has a lot going for it.

I use MS-DOS a lot, mostly because I can get direct access to one-off 
hardware on a time-critical basis without trying to squeeze an 
implementation into someone's device driver structure.

I use the underlying DOS 7 that comes with Win9x and load the DOSLFN 
driver to provide long filename support.  While the system for 
storing long filenames in a FAT is hugely inefficient, I do get to 
call my files anything I like, as long as my application makes use of 
the long filename DOS calls.

I believe that FreeDOS has long filename support built into their FAT 
filesystem also.  Essentially, then, the 8.3 DOS filename convention 
only applies to pre-1995 versions of DOS.

And if you think that 8.3 is restrictive, try ISIS-II with 6.3 
filenames and 4-character drive specifiers (e.g. ":F0:" for the first 
floppy drive).

Long filenames are a pain to deal with when all you have is a command-
line interface.  I can understand the approach of Unix and wildcards 
to make the job a bit easier--although when you're faced with 10 
files with 24-character names but for one character tucked away in 
the middle of the name, wildcards require some thought to get to a 
specific file.
------
Historical diversion:

On CDC SCOPE, files had a "local" name specific to a job and a 
"global" or "permanent" name that was unchanging.  One would "attach" 
a permanent name to a no-more than 8-character local name to allow 
job tasks access to a file.  Similarly, one could "save" a local file 
to a permanent one by specifying a (up to 30 character, IIRC) 
permanent name.  Permanent file names also included a "cycle" or 
revision number.  Said files could even exist on archive tapes and a 
job requesting such a file would be rescheduled until the appropriate 
archive was made available.

There was no protocol to create a temporary file--one simply wrote to 
one using a local name; said  name was unique to the job session and 
not visible to other jobs.  At job end, local files not associated 
with a pernament name or standard I/O device (e.g. INPUT, OUTPUT, 
PUNCH) were discarded.

I think the system was an outgrowth of the tape handling system--a 
tape was mounted during a job and associated with a local file name.

--Chuck





From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 13:47:21 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:47:21 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKWdfONdodP4ik-_zDc5gyh=bxqVQQ2t41Hbt=35Rzaew@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
>
> What I don't understand is the belief that the unix wildcard is difficult. ?"*" is powerful and unlike in Microsoft OS's, can appear anywhere in the name for pattern matching (i.e. *foo*baz* will match any file names that have "foo" and "baz" appearing in them in that order).

That's odd, pattern matching of the *foo*baz* form seems to work fine
for me on recent Microsoft OS's.



From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 14:10:40 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:10:40 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <231BECBE-0F2B-434F-AC9A-A25A7B166DC4@gmail.com>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>
 <430731753-1323709933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1571318746-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <231BECBE-0F2B-434F-AC9A-A25A7B166DC4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <384285815-1323720642-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1906781092-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

I'll have to double check my old Nec Multisync but the other monitors I have are all DVI and D-SUB only. Thanks for all the info on this. 
-----Original Message-----
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:23:17 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:12 PM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies so far. Please note my original message, I do not have a television. I prefer to buy or build an adapter if that is possible. I looked at the amazon link but it talks about HDMI (none of my monitors support it afaik, they are all dvi and dsib) and S-video. I don't know what S-video is either. Obviously the old COCO I have is not going to be used for any demanding video, but it does support color. Thanks again.

HDMI should be passively convertible to DVI (someone correct me if that's not true when it carries audio information; thus far, it's worked fine for me).

S-Video is the next step up from composite, with the luma (brightness) and chroma (color) information separated out.  It may not be popular in the UK (though I seem to recall the SCART connector has some pins for it).  It will give you a much better picture than composite video if you have the option.  Typically it's a round mini-DIN connector with 4 pins and a plastic alignment bit.

- Dave





From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 14:12:58 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:12:58 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
Message-ID: <884439231-1323720780-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1013599494-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Oh, I'll have to look at my junk pile. I seem to remember getting a TV card along with a few boxes of misc parts when I bought a desktop a few years ago. I had no use for it at the time. Maybe I will. Thanks. 

------Original Message------
From: Cameron Kaiser
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
Sent: 12 Dec 2011 18:30

> > Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
> > nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
> > viewing applications get a bit ugly.
> 
> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> connections?

Yes. Many (even most) of them have composite inputs, and some even have
S-video inputs. I used an Aurora Fuse card for this in my MDD until I got
a FireWire Canopus ADVC-300.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Everything is permissible, but not everything is expedient. -- 1 Cor 6:12 --




From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 14:14:02 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:14:02 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE5D7C5.26055.2CB2B0@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <430731753-1323709933-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1571318746-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <4EE5D7C5.26055.2CB2B0@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <2131382942-1323720844-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-40788789-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Thanks. At this point I am just lining up possibilities but I may take you up on that offer later. 

-----Original Message-----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:30:29 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

On 12 Dec 2011 at 17:12, Vintage Coder wrote:

> Thanks for all the replies so far. Please note my original message, I
> do not have a television. I prefer to buy or build an adapter if that
> is possible. I looked at the amazon link but it talks about HDMI (none
> of my monitors support it afaik, they are all dvi and dsib) and
> S-video. I don't know what S-video is either. Obviously the old COCO I
> have is not going to be used for any demanding video, but it does
> support color. Thanks again.

Probably close to 20 years ago, I expressed an interest in being able 
to view PAL VHS tapes here in NTSC-land.  A friend from the UK sent 
me a PAL VHS player and I tracked down a fellow who made PAL-to-RGB 
decoder kits.  I found that my Mitsubishi Diamond Scan monitor would 
display the RGB just fine. 

I still have the plans for the kit and can forward them on, if it 
would help.

--Chuck




From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 14:15:47 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:15:47 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <3F577317-7719-4004-AC5B-BB57D3900381@gmail.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <3F577317-7719-4004-AC5B-BB57D3900381@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <534585955-1323720949-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1019615476-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Now that you and Cameron mentioned it, I'll look through my junk pile. I am pretty sure I have at least one TV card in there. Thank you. 
-----Original Message-----
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:38:58 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:15 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:

>> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
>> nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
>> viewing applications get a bit ugly.
> 
> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> connections?

Often enough, yes.  You just need to look for the appropriate ports; some of the REALLY cheap ones only have a tuner and nothing else.  I really liked the AVI TV Wonder that I have (CX2388x-based, red PCB); it had a little purple breakout box with the composite, S-Video and audio connections so that everything else could fit on the card bracket.

For Linux, my best luck has been with bt848/878 (almost the same chip) followed by CX2388x (the next step up after Conexant bought Brooktree; there are newer chips in the series that support e.g. PCI Express, but I don't know their level of support under Linux).  There are a handful of Philips chips supported, but I've never tried them.

The Windows viewing apps that come with the cards are almost universally terrible, but a good third-party one I've used is DScaler (it's been a while since I've fooled around with it, though, and they were going through a major project renovation, so it could be either better or worse by now).

For Linux, I always preferred fbtv, but most people don't like fooling around with the framebuffer layer any more than they have to.  I really liked the ability the framebuffer layer gave me to create custom graphics modes with weird sizes and fixed frequencies that optimized the experience; alas, none of that is likely to work well without an analog monitor anymore.  I also liked being able to just start the viewer without having to start X.  I don't know what the general favorite is for operating it under X; when I was using it, it was xawtv.  I imagine that MythTV probably has a Video4Linux backend?


- Dave






From vintagecoder at aol.com  Mon Dec 12 14:17:02 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:17:02 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
Message-ID: <387547830-1323721024-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-296527566-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Thanks. Sounds pretty gruesome. 


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 14:28:49 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:28:49 +0000
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 16:58, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> In article <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw at mail.gmail.com>,
> ? ?Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>
> Really?
>
> Because for me, learning about new systems is about the only thing
> that keeps my job interesting and keeps this hobby interesting.

I quite enjoy dabbling with new Linux GUIs and so on, but TBH, no. I
stand by what I said.

I started on a PET, dabbled with a ZX81 and then got my first computer
of my own: a Sinclair ZX Spectrum.

Then I went to an Amstrad PCW9512, an odd choice of home computer
perhaps. CP/M came as a bit of a shock but I'd used VMS at university
and coped.

Then came work and I learned MS-DOS and MacOS 6 and 7 and SCO Xenix.

At home, I bought an Acorn Archimedes.

>From that I went to a PC laptop running OS/2 2, then 2.1, 3 and after
much pain with that, a switch to Windows 95.

Meanwhile for work I'd added Netware 2, 3 and 4, NT from 3.1, a bit of
VMS. Windows from 2.01 - *every* single version, TTBOMK.

I ran NT 3.51 for years at work, then NT 4, and I went from Win95 at
home to NT4 there too. A brief flirtation with Caldera OpenLinux but
back to Win2K and XP, which I abandoned to SUSE and thence Ubuntu,
while also learning Mac OS X.

Those are the main ones. I've also done jobs on System/36, PDP/11,
AMOS, something arcane called CP/M that wasn't, AS/400, AIX, HP/UX,
Cisco IOS on a PIX. I've fiddled with QNX and AmigaOS and Atari GEM
and the Sinclair QL, and with SunOS and Solaris. And then there are
the handhelds - EPOC16 and EPOC32 and Symbian, S60 and S80 and S90 and
UIQ, Newton, Android, iOS, Blackberry and so on. BeOS and Haiku.
FreeBSD and PC-BSD.

And many more I can't call to mind.

I'm tired of it.

If I had the money, to be honest, I'd run Mac OS X on a fast iMac on
the desktop and Ubuntu on an IBM Thinkpad as a portable.

Some things work these days. Others don't. Permissions and security
are a hideously complex mess on Windows and not much better on OS X.
Networking has collapsed down to SMB and HTTP over TCP/IP, more or
less, but even that is a horrid mess and that's without IPv6.

GUIs work quite well now. Windows has been going downhill since
Windows 2000 but I don't hate Win7. I choose not to use it but I could
if I had to. OS X is generally pleasant but Lion is a bit weird.

And yet, after all this time, I can't get a decent text-mode editor
for my Linux servers. Emacs is the lurking blasphemous horror it was
30y ago, vi is just so embarrassingly primitive I can't believe it's
survived, and the handful of alternatives are stone-aged. (Joe? Nano?
You're having a laugh, aren't you?)

I mean, come on, guys, CUA won the war, it was over a quarter of a
century ago. It's more than time.

At least on my desktop I can use X and Gedit. It's all right.

(SETedit -- http://setedit.sourceforge.net/ -- was lovely but it died
of lack of interest.)

I want my computers to just /work/. I expected all the complexity and
arcane crap to be banished 15 years ago. I was wrong. It's a good job
I didn't dream of ActiveDirectory; I'd have quit and gone and lived in
a cave if I knew what was coming.

Sure, I love interesting old machines from the past. My current area
of interest is Lisp Machines and Lisp itself, although I doubt I'll
ever use an actual one. I think there's a lot that could be learned
from the olden days, stuff that the kids are busily re-inventing,
badly, today.

But really? I am tired of fiddling and fettling and coaxing into
continued life. I want computers that I can just talk to, tell what I
want and that just do it, with no more maintenance than a toaster.
We're well into the 2nd decade of the 21st century. I know I'm not
going to get flying cars or jetpacks, but I did expect computers to
have got further, as opposed to just smaller, faster and more
capacious, but just as capricious.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From spc at conman.org  Mon Dec 12 14:42:35 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:42:35 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF=m3km69JCVAos054t8T-LNOqqr03QO42R3WaywJfMFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCF=m3km69JCVAos054t8T-LNOqqr03QO42R3WaywJfMFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111212204235.GA32581@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated:
> On 12 December 2011 15:34, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 12, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >
> >> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
> >> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
> >> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
> >
> > Well yes, and that's the key, isn't it? ?I think the single most infuriating part of Windows to me is that the system configuration isn't in human-readable text files, it's in inscrutable key/value pairs in a giant global registry. ?It makes it impossible to have any real kind of manual control over the operation of the system unless you are a warlock. ?On Linux and OS X, you can almost always edit a text file somewhere that will be vaguely understandable even if you've never seen it.
> 
> On Linux, yes - if you can find it and then if you can parse the
> format, as there is no standard at all and it ranges from INI files
> (as used by Samba) to early pre-Demotic hieroglyphs transcribed in
> Minoan Linear A and then written in early Sumerian cuneiform (e.g.,
> Sendmail.cf).
> 
> But OS X? If it's in a file it's probably XML but the chances are it's
> in netinfo somewhere...

  I'm running Mac OS X 10.6.8.  In order to forware syslog to my Linux box
(centalized logging, don't you know), changing /etc/syslog.conf wasn't
enough.  I had to locate a binary configuration file (it's under
/System/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.syslogd.plist), decompile it using a
tool, change the options to syslogd, recompile it back to a binary file, and
restart the system.

  I actually did that quite a while ago, but a few updates kept resetting
the /System/Library/LaunchDaemons/com.apple.syslogd.plist file and I had to
keep resetting it *back*.  Apparently, Apple got the message and the past
two or three updates haven't nuked the settings.

  -spc (It's just Unix enough to make it annoying ... )





From spc at conman.org  Mon Dec 12 14:53:36 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:53:36 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can 
> you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very 
> poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is 
> neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)

  Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:

[spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
[spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo 
gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
[spc]lucy:/tmp>

  And GCC also has trouble with extentions:

[spc]lucy:/tmp>cp hello.c hello.foo
[spc]lucy:/tmp>gcc hello.foo 
hello.foo: file not recognized: File format not recognized
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
[spc]lucy:/tmp>gcc hello.c 
[spc]lucy:/tmp>

  Those are the only ones that I can name off the top of my head, but it's
still annoying (especially the gunzip one).

  -spc (Only recently learned about libmagic ... )





From chris at mainecoon.com  Mon Dec 12 14:54:29 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:54:29 -0800
Subject: OSX devtools was: Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? -
 Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
 <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <44A83915-A1EB-4AC5-925E-54C94EA95526@mainecoon.com>


On 12 Dec 2011, at 11:07 AM, David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Richard wrote:
> 
>> 
>> If you think Xcode is "great dev tools", then you need to get out more.
> 
> I feel like XCode used to be *better* dev tools.

Agreed.

>  Honestly, I was most fond of medium-early versions of CodeWarrior (before OS X, before OS 9, really; the early "pro" versions), though that may be nostalgia talking more than accurate recollection.  XCode, like everything else, seems to have bloated and gotten creaky with age (and I think the UI overhaul in 4.0 was a major step backwards).

Technically I'd say it blows hairy goats.  I'm back to using gmake and emacs :P

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From spc at conman.org  Mon Dec 12 14:56:25 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:56:25 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com>
References: <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>
 <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111212205624.GC32581@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated:
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 12:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> 
> >> ..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think Apple
> >> would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)
> > 
> > So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P
> 
> I always hotplugged the SCSI cable, though I'm perfectly aware that's a
> terrible idea (and was then, too).  I seem to recall being able to jimmy
> it into the system to mount using SCSIProbe after that.

  Eeeeeeek!  

  It's very late 1993 (or very early 1994).  I'm working at an ISP in South
Florida who's main machine is running AIX (the ISP is owned by an ex-IBMer). 
One day he attempts to add a SCSI drive to the system, as it's still
running.

  I became *very* knowledgable in AIX logical volumes that day.

  -spc (I just loved how AIX stored the logical volume information as a
	regular file, so when I restored the system, boom!  I had to do
	everything over again ... )



From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 15:12:35 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:12:35 -0700
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
 <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RaDAp-0004dC-9Z@shell.xmission.com>


In article <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3 at gmail.com>,
    David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> writes:

> (and I think the UI overhaul in [Xcode] 4.0 was a major step backwards).

WOW.

That's really saying something considering how shitty the UI was in
Xcode 3.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Mon Dec 12 15:19:43 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:19:43 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:18:35 +0000
Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> Well, that's true, but until the 1990s, it was primarily a commercial
> product, no? The one that influenced everybody most, and got licensed,
> was AT&T, mainly System V, not BSD, is that not so?
The Unix of the 80'is was BSD. It was more advanced then SysV in many
ways. (TCP/IP networking e.g.) Only when the founding of the CSRG at
UCB and thus BSD came to an end, vendors switched to SysV. BSD heavily
influenced anything that folowed it. E.g. the socket(2) API, vi(1),
lpr(1), ...

> IIRC, Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, SCO Unix and UnixWare, OSF/1 etc. all
> contained SysV code? (Even if not the kernel.)
Solaris is a child of the early 90'is. SunOS, its predecessor, was BSD.
AIX is no real Unix at all. It just happens to look a bit like Unix. ;-)
IBMs AOS was a BSD port.
SCO, yes, SysV.
IRIX, SysV.
OSF/1 is a MACH kernel with lots of BSD on top. You can realy feel
that Ultrix, its predecessor in the 80'is, was a BSD. I am a BSD person
and I immediately felt "at home" when I touched OSF/1 first.

There isn't much difference betwen SysV and BSD these days. BSD got
things like SysV shared memory, SysV got socket(2), ...

> The thing that I like - which used to cause protests, but it appears
> to be fading now - is that after some 2 decades of busy, rapid
> open-source Unix development, it is now getting to the point where it
> is approaching the degree of user-friendliness of the best commercial
> systems. In some areas, it's ahead; in some, behind. But it's getting
> there, even when this is over the protesting howls of the Unix
> old-timers.
Well. Thats why I say: Linux evolved from a free Unix clone for Unix
lovers into a bad Windows surrogate for M$ haters. ;-)
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 15:24:17 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:24:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 12, 11 02:08:46 pm"
Message-ID: <201112122124.pBCLOHW8016002@floodgap.com>

> >> ..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think Apple
> >> would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)
> > 
> > So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P
> 
> I always hotplugged the SCSI cable, though I'm perfectly aware that's a
> terrible idea (and was then, too). 

UGH!
Well, I asked.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Perl scripting: the ultimate open source software. -------------------------


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 15:28:27 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:28:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 12, 11 02:07:18 pm"
Message-ID: <201112122128.pBCLSRrr017586@floodgap.com>

> > > OS X delivers a very solid OS with great dev tools [...]
> > 
> > Seriously?
> > 
> > If you think Xcode is "great dev tools", then you need to get out more.
> 
> I feel like XCode used to be *better* dev tools.  Honestly, I was most fond
> of medium-early versions of CodeWarrior (before OS X, before OS 9, really;
> the early "pro" versions), though that may be nostalgia talking more than
> accurate recollection.  XCode, like everything else, seems to have bloated
> and gotten creaky with age (and I think the UI overhaul in 4.0 was a major
> step backwards).

I can't stand Xcode 4, it seems to have been written by someone who doesn't
understand IDEs. I'd sooner use Eclipse. I could barely tolerate 2.x.

For that matter, Objective-C drives me crazy.

I use CodeWarrior 7 for Classilla and frankly there's no Mac development
tool that even comes close. The debugger is delightful, if "debugger" and
"delightful" can ever occur in the same utterance, and it integrates
well with MPW and all the other build tools that Jobs II Apple swept out.

The programs I create on OS X all compile from the command line. If I
absolutely have to use Xcode to build something, it's with xcodebuild, not
with GUI Xcode.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Life is too short to use anything but a Mac. -- Roger Ebert ----------------


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 15:33:31 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:33:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <231BECBE-0F2B-434F-AC9A-A25A7B166DC4@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 12, 11 01:23:17 pm"
Message-ID: <201112122133.pBCLXVml013278@floodgap.com>

> S-Video [is] a round mini-DIN connector with 4 pins and a plastic alignment
> bit.

This reminds me of a funny story (well, it wasn't funny at the time). S-video
connectors are, possibly not coincidentally, the same plug that Apple Desktop
Bus uses, and I use S-video cables as extension cables since they are cheap
and readily available.

However, what you can't use is an S-video switchbox as a cheapo K-M switch.
So here's today's trivia question: when I did this, the system kept acting
like I was pressing the power button. :)

The same principle allows you to create an "ADB boot dongle" for non-MacOS
systems. My 7300 NetBSD system had one plugged into the keyboard, since
NetBSD would ignore that, and even if the PMU was not working correctly it
would always boot it after a power failure.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Spotted on a coffee mug: "Say NO to drugs" -- Chuck Reiman, r.h.f ----------


From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 15:35:01 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:35:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com> from
 Liam Proven at "Dec 12, 11 07:43:00 pm"
Message-ID: <201112122135.pBCLZ1OJ013102@floodgap.com>

> Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
> name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
> versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
> made a comeback.

*cough*Lion*cough*

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "I'd love to go out with you, but my personalities each need therapy." -----


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 15:43:06 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 21:43:06 +0000
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFf0T+yC6Vv+KYEDSN7Kk4YQHZytqHh-9Wfd-qL4xT0Ag@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 18:29, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> In article <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=
>> JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw at mail.gmail.com>,
>> ? ?Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> > But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>>
>> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
> is fun. ?Ah, the real days of low security....)

I had to get a PDP/11 talking to a bunch of Mac SEs running MacOS 7
once. This involved ordering a tape of Kermit from the University of
Lancaster, installing it on a computer of an entire family which I had
never seen, touched or known /anything/ about ever before or since,
and getting it running and sending and receiving files.

Of all the work I have ever done, I think that is one of the single
jobs I am most proud of. Truly flying blind, but it all worked.

(The client came to use and said that they wanted OCR into their
office wordprocessor. Little did we know that some unsung hero of a
DEC salesman had sold them a PDP/11 and a bunch of dumb terminals *in
the mid-1980s* as an office WP solution. Quarter of a million quid
they paid, for something a decade out of date the day it was
delivered. Absolutely astounding.

So we replaced most of the terminals with Macs, networked over the
same cabling system. They wrote text in MS Word, OCRed with Caere
Omnipage, and then used a terminal emulator and Kermit to send it to
the "mainframe" host and print it.

Seriously Heath Robinson (er, what do they call that in the Colonies?
"Rube Goldberg", I think?) solution, but it all worked and the
customer /loved/ it. It allowed them to get a few more years of use
out of the DEC kit before we replaced it with a proper Mac network -
after I'd left the company - and LaserWriters.

It was sad that the LaserWriters mainly printed in Courier, but hey,
they were lawyers, they liked that sort of thing.

Other moments of the driving of obscure-or-unknown-systems that
rescued an employer's collective nether regions from the fire a few
times were mostly document or data transfer.

* From a Torch Bridge running CP/M 2 on a BBC Micro over to a PC. That
required the interesting combination of CP/M knowledge (good old PIP)
and Acorn MOS and ADFS knowledge.

* From a QUME hardware wordprocessor with hard-sectored disks in an
unknown format to DOS. We wired up a crossover cable, attached a PC to
the WP's serial port, worked out the baud rate by guess and by gods,
and captured printer output to disk.

Only to discover that the WP did bidirectional printing /in software./
Every other line was printed backwards: line feed, backspace,
backspace, character, backspace, backspace, character, backspace,
backspace, character, all the way to the end of the line, then
linefeed.

And of course the text might start on an odd or an even line, so you
didn't know for sure which ones were backwards. Bold was achieved by
overprinting the character twice, with 2 backspaces, and italics by
printing underscores and double backspaces.

I unravelled all that in QuickBASIC. :?)

* Getting data off an accounts system running under CCP/M
(v3.something, I think) on a Jarogate Sprite. (Which seems to be an
almost forgotten system, now. There were quite a few on the Isle of
Man in the 1980s.)

It was DOS-floppy compatible, 1.2MB ones I think, but it contained
something like 40MB of data. Floppies were quicker than the serial
ports, but still, we were looking at a *LOT* of disks.

My main contribution to this one was working out that, if limited to
certain specific commands, PKZip could actually be run successfully
under CCP/M, meaning that we could reduce the file sizes to transfer
by about 2 orders of magnitude, and a task that looked like it would
take weeks took an afternoon.

But all this weird and wonderful stuff, all this variety, is gone now.

Now, it's MS Office on Windows, or on Mac OS X, or Linux, which means
Ubuntu or a derivative.

Everything else has gone away.

And it's all very boring.

Windows is still is pig in many respects. OS X is lovely in many ways
but there is a limit to how much you can customise it. Linux contains
legions, but it's all a bit samey and increasingly it seems to me that
Ubuntu is the way to go.

(Although I am curious about GoboLinux and have some Ideas in that direction.)

But really, most of the interest has gone out of IT now, for my money.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 15:48:32 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:48:32 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E1RaAzL-0004lF-5r@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <E1RaAzL-0004lF-5r@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EE676B0.7090900@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 01:52 PM, Richard wrote:
>> It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
>> Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [3-letter extension format]
>
> Wait, you mean the limitation that is present on RSTS/E, RT-11,
> RSX-11, TOPS-10, TOPS-20 (and probably a bunch more DEC OSes) and
> CP/M?
>
> In other words: this mental model of a 3-letter file extension was
> around LONG before Microsoft.

   Even TWO letters, as in the case of OS/8!

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 15:50:25 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:50:25 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 12:15 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
>> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
>> nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
>> viewing applications get a bit ugly.
>
> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> connections?

   Indeed, those are the SAME signals!  Think about it. :)

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 15:50:59 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:50:59 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 01:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
>>> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>>
>> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
> is fun.  Ah, the real days of low security....)

   Same here, and learning new things in general.  The day I stop 
learning, and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 14:55:03 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:55:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112120034.TAA26083@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 11, 11 07:34:15 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaCty-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> 
> >>> In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, [...]
> >> [...]
> > That said, I don't think they save much tiem.  The time taken to form
> > component leads to fit into one of these breadboards, or to strip a
> > piece of isulated wire to go in, is not much less than soldering the
> > components to stripboard (assuming your iron is already hot).
> 
> I find they save time.  Not so much because it's faster to build
> something that way, but because it's a lot easier to do experimental
> stuff that way, stuff that involves lots of test-change-retest cycles,

That actualyl is one of my dislikes of them. They encourage 'fiddle until 
it seems to work' designing, which is not IMHO a good way to make a solid 
design. It's the same as twaekign code and recompliling until the bugs 
seem tovanish rathe htna actually thinking avout the problem and writing 
a program that works.

> and that's a lot of the electronics I do.  Similarly, it's a lot easier
> to rip the circuit apart and put the parts back in stock in shape
> suitable for future experimentation.

Actually, I don't find they save much time. When I am 
designing/prototyping, I put all the ICs (even TTL) in sockets (turned 
pin sockets, I've never had a bad contact from one of those), so I cna 
easilly pull those for testing or reuse. Most passives haev jsut 2 leads, 
it's easy to tak-solder those in place nad replace them with another 
value if you want. And yes, they go back into 'stock' aftwewards, a 
little solder otneh ends of the leads doesn't make much differentce (and 
I've not found any signifcant change in relibility from reusing such parts).

And of coruse when I'm doign experiement awork, I want everything to be 
as certain as it can be, so that I know that problemns are due to bad 
design (or less likely faulty components) and notdue to a poor conentuion 
somewhere.

> 
> It also greatly cuts down on scorched/burnt skin. :)

As does using a soldering iron properly ;-)
 
> That said, different strokes for different folks.  If Tony, or anyone
> else for that matter, finds soldering works better, I'd never try to
> argue otherwise.  For me, with my skills and preferences and the kinds
> of stuff I do, solderless breadboards are a huge win - but those
> qualifications are important.

The big problem comes when you use modern-ish high-speed ICs (F TTL, 
etc). Even if you're clcoking them quite slowly, the signals still have 
fast rise-times and the impedance of the breadboard conenctions is often 
enoguh to cause problems when powering such ICs. 

If it works for you, then use it, but do rememebr they can cause 
problems, so if your design doesn't work and you've checked everything 
else, try soldering it up.

-tony


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 15:55:24 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:55:24 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6784C.4090306@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 02:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
> name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
> versioning.

   And that's not even half of a fully-qualified VMS filename!

   NODE::DDnn:[dir.subdir.subdir...]filename.extension;version

   It cares even less about abstraction than Windows, but it still 
manages to be nice anyway.

> Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
> made a comeback.

   Agreed 100%!

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 15:30:51 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 21:30:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 from "Vintage Coder" at Dec 12, 11 11:51:28 am
Message-ID: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What 
> are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there 

I normally pick of the compostie signal before the RF modulator (if there 
isn't a composite video ouptu socket anyway, there isn't on the CoCo II, 
there is on the 3) and feed it to a composite-input CRT-based monitor. 

> a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to 

at least over here, most moder n TVs (inlducing LCD and plasma ones) have 
analogue TV tuner/demodulation circuitry (as well as digital) which seems 
ot work with old home compoters. And composite (and manye analogue RGB) 
inputs on RCA phono or SCART socketxs. 

> dream, DVI?  What do you call such a conv erter? Thanks. 

I beleive composite to HDMI converters esixt (may work with DVI too, I 
can't see why they'd need the decryption key from the TV set). Over here
they are often called 'SCART to HDMI converters', since the composite 
input is on a SCART socket. Of course sucvh things only work if oyu have 
a compostie video output from your home computer, not just the an RF output.

Not cheap, though (getting on for $100). an old CRT monitor is cheaper 
and probalbly more repairable if you have the space for it.

-tony


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 16:01:15 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:01:15 +0000
Subject: Unix as a tool (was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimngXSjEwmK3CfnXjRe7Sv1K_XugRdp8Rf=H9ZWfZNFHZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
 <CAALmimngXSjEwmK3CfnXjRe7Sv1K_XugRdp8Rf=H9ZWfZNFHZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFRSagrYezQnL-tJT2=nXxCMjXaXrWLDEzE8iBSyeonmA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 19:05, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/11/11 8:25 PM, "Alexander Schreiber" <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
>>... If you are not ...
>>well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
>>boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)
>
> My cauldron does not smoke (I have a proper vent on it).

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning or in rain?"
"Well, I can do next Tuesday."

(/Wyrd Sisters/, T Pratchett)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 16:12:24 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:12:24 -0500
Subject: NetInfo, was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 09:10 AM, Mark Benson wrote:
> Hmm yes. The word 'netinfo' still strikes fear into the souls of
> people who tried to configure stuff like NFS exports on early OS X
> versions :S

   It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP.  Apparently Netinfo had 
a hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just 
Would Not Let It Go for way too long.

   It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X.  Good 
riddance.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 12 16:23:29 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:23:29 -0600
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.g
 mail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112122227.pBCMRbHu042670@billy.ezwind.net>

At 01:43 PM 12/12/2011, Liam Proven wrote:
>Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
>name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
>versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
>made a comeback.

It's Time Machine in OS X, it's "previous versions" in Windows 7.

- John



From brian at quarterbyte.com  Mon Dec 12 16:33:55 2011
From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:33:55 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
Message-ID: <4EE68153.2463.23B0BB0D@brian.quarterbyte.com>

For the "very poorly" category, I'd like to nominate the DOS & Windows
command line globbing semantics, where ? matches one character OR 
NOTHING. Likewise, ?? matches zero, one or two characters. And ??? 
matches zero, one, two or three characters.

So,

   del *.?

will not delete just "file.a", it will delete "file" as well.
This sort of sets the gold standard for poor behavior.

Even Microsoft is at odds with itself about what ? means. In the 
Windows world, the command shell doesn't expand wildcards. Applications 
have to do it for themselves. The Visual Studio C runtime library 
globbing routine incorrectly states that '?' matches "exactly one 
char". So even some of their own developers aren't aware of this.

Brian









From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 12 16:39:22 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:39:22 -0700
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE5E911.10152.7044E7@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>,
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <4EE5E911.10152.7044E7@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <E1RaEWo-0000p9-Q8@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EE5E911.10152.7044E7 at cclist.sydex.com>,
    "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:

> No, and that's a weakness.  As much as I'm not used to admitting 
> Apple superiority, the resource fork has a lot going for it.

Good dog, no.  The resource fork is horrible IMO.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 12 16:43:14 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:43:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> There are certain commands I've come across that handles extentions
> poorly.  Like gunzip:

> [spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo 
> gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>

Yes.  Annoying, but understandable - without the .gz on there, how is
it to know what file to put the result in?  Of course, we could get
into the upsides and downsides of filesystem version numbers, but
that's a separate bikeshed.  (Workaround, moderately specific to gzip,
and good for only a single file: gunzip < x-grey.tar.foo > whatever)

> And GCC also has trouble with extentions:

> [spc]lucy:/tmp>cp hello.c hello.foo
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gcc hello.foo 
> hello.foo: file not recognized: File format not recognized
> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gcc hello.c 
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>

Yes.  Read the documentation.  gcc has options to specify what's in a
file; the guesses based on .c, .s, .i, etc are just heuristics,
overridable with the appropriate options.  (At least in the version of
gcc whose documentation I was reading when I stumbled across that; I
don't know how ubiquitous it is.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Dec 12 16:48:10 2011
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:48:10 -0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008201ccb921$2d1df8a0$d1fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 1:14 AM
Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne


> On 7 December 2011 21:32, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Most mobile phones (atleast the ones I have seen) have 2 options -
> > predictive text (T9 mode on my 8 year old mobile phone) and ABC mode.
There
> > should be a way to switch it to ABC mode, though some mobiles have
> > predictive text on as default (so you have to turn it off every time you
> > need to text).
> > I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes predictive text.
>
> [Waves] Hi!


I asked for that didn't I... :)


>
> It's fine once you get used to it. It really does use fewer keystrokes
> - quite a lot fewer.
>
> It's great if you learn how to use it /if/ you are a relatively light
> to moderate texter. Heavy users who want the absolute maximum speed,
> however, seem to favour non-predictive entry, as it is deterministic,
> so you don't need to wait and see what emerges. Predictive text is
> interactive: you press the keys, just once each, for each letter, then
> you step through the offered words, pick the one you want and move on
> - or teach the phone the new word. This means that the list of
> offerings changes over time, and that means it's non-deterministic.
> Some phones put the new words on the end of the list, some on the
> beginning, but either way, it will be a different number of choices to
> loop through the list.
>

Admittedly, I have never really used predictive text that much. I am a
creature of habit and much prefer doing it the way I have always done.
It's a bit like programming on the Spectrum... I learnt programming by
typing out each command. It wasn't until later that I discovered the 48K
method (one key for each instruction) and (as with predictive text) my
instant reaction was that I didn't like it. But that's just me...


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk





From sellam at vintagetech.com  Mon Dec 12 16:40:47 2011
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 14:40:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Seeking HP Vectra models for purchase
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1112121438470.11509@vintagetech.com>


Hello folks.

I need any one of the following models of HP Vectras:

  - HP Vectra VL2 4/33se
  - HP Vectra VL2 4/66
  - HP Vectra M2 4/50
  - HP Vectra VL2 4/50
  - HP Vectra VL2 4/50 CD
  - HP Vectra XM2 4/66i

Bonus points (in increasing value) if:

1. They are original (i.e. no upgrades)
2. Complete
3. Have original OS and software installation
4. Come with original software install disks, manuals and paperwork.

If you have any one of these models, please contact me ASAP.  I am looking 
to purchase them.

Thanks!

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers   ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com  || at http://marketplace.vintage.org  ]


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 12 17:05:02 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:05:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112121457.pBCEvkVw029987@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <BC3A6373-FB9C-4771-A89C-6C43E28F966D@gmail.com>
 <201112121457.pBCEvkVw029987@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20111212150025.S62271@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, John Foust wrote:
> The CoCo 2 has an RF output on channel 3.  You need a device that can
> tune to analog channel 3, then output something your new TV can handle.

Like the Coco 1, it should be TRIVIAL to tap a composite video signal
(almost-NTSC)

> If your TV still has an analog cable tuner, did you try that?
> If your TV doesn't have a tuner, a tightwad alternative is an old VCR that
> can tune to 3, then output to composite or S-Video.

output into a DVD RECORDER, write DVDs, carry them over to a PC, and play
them there :-)


There ARE cheap TVs available, that DO have analog tuners.


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:06:00 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:06:00 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E1RaDAp-0004dC-9Z@shell.xmission.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <CAMTenCHj=KT3L_1oEAOk9k5O-awPMd9sZFMq1J85KV8S4Ht3uw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9v0-0005cE-Ud@shell.xmission.com>
 <9BB9AF30-C693-4AC2-A248-35ACABD268F3@gmail.com>
 <E1RaDAp-0004dC-9Z@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <82A5C8F7-CB57-4F98-958D-235DEC9C9017@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:12 PM, Richard wrote:

> WOW.
> 
> That's really saying something considering how shitty the UI was in
> Xcode 3.

I could at least tolerate 3.  It didn't try to shove *everything* (including the Interface Builder) into one window.  We're not programming on an iPad, and it's not Visual Studio (the pane interface is actually what I hate most about VS).  There's no reason for everything to be in one effing window.  It's the worst.  I want my debugger separate from my build log separate from my code separate from my source tree.

I think I basically liked Project Builder until its interfaces diverged significantly enough from Codewarrior's ideas that they changed the name.  I think I maybe even liked the first few versions of XCode, but it's been long enough that I don't quite recall.


- Dave


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:10:10 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:10:10 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112122124.pBCLOHW8016002@floodgap.com>
References: <201112122124.pBCLOHW8016002@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <6F86BD57-9C80-4068-AB3F-5783EFDD1986@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:24 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>> I always hotplugged the SCSI cable, though I'm perfectly aware that's a
>> terrible idea (and was then, too). 
> 
> UGH!
> Well, I asked.

Like I said, terrible idea.  I've never blown a disk/controller doing it, but I'm not interested in discovering the odds and I only ever had to do it once or twice (perhaps "always" was the wrong word, it was a rather unusual occurrence).

Switching the power on for an external SCSI enclosure after booting was a bit preferable, and I think it avoids *most* of the hotplugging hazards (but I don't pretend to understand the mechanics of hotplugging hazards well; TI has a great app note on it that I only skimmed).

- Dave






From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 17:14:31 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:14:31 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112122124.pBCLOHW8016002@floodgap.com>
References: <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com>
 <201112122124.pBCLOHW8016002@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqG3yrwwee0OZhOhsi-wrtj+ZLD5QQDBe133WoxbJRwE5w@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>wrote:

> > >> ..and, you could mount an unbootable volume easily (although I think
> Apple
> > >> would have freaked if they knew what we did to do that...)
> > >
> > > So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P
> >
> > I always hotplugged the SCSI cable, though I'm perfectly aware that's a
> > terrible idea (and was then, too).
>
> UGH!
> Well, I asked.
>
>
It was better than not recovering their data, we did it hundreds of times,
without incident.
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:18:04 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:18:04 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112122128.pBCLSRrr017586@floodgap.com>
References: <201112122128.pBCLSRrr017586@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <9C144A17-1532-4F05-95C8-623B92357538@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:28 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> For that matter, Objective-C drives me crazy.

I actually like it, but I'm weird.  I feel like they did a lot of things right under the hood that C++ sacrificed in the name of efficiency, but of course, there's a good reason to do that, too.  There's a reason IOKit drivers are done in Embedded C++ and not Obj-C (well, there are lots of reasons, but that's one of them).

> I use CodeWarrior 7 for Classilla and frankly there's no Mac development
> tool that even comes close. The debugger is delightful, if "debugger" and
> "delightful" can ever occur in the same utterance, and it integrates
> well with MPW and all the other build tools that Jobs II Apple swept out.

7 or Pro 7?  I could never keep them straight and I have no recollection why they rebooted the numbers.  Was it a Carbon thing?

In any case, I'm pretty sure there's a stack of Codewarrior media all the way back to something like 3 at my parents' house (I remember installing it on my father's 660av with the 80 MB "Programmer's Heaven" full install set because we had just bought a brand-new drive for the thing; how times have changed).

> The programs I create on OS X all compile from the command line. If I
> absolutely have to use Xcode to build something, it's with xcodebuild, not
> with GUI Xcode.

I'm probably going to have to look into how to do that efficiently, because I'm getting really fed up with XCode to the point where it's not fun to program with it anymore.  I obviously don't use it for the command-line apps.  Are there easily-available guides to the command-line tools (i.e. not Apple's rather difficult-to-work-with docs)?


- Dave







From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 12 17:25:33 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:25:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20111212151930.B64360@shell.lmi.net>

> > Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
> > nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
> > viewing applications get a bit ugly.

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> connections?

MANY have composite video imupts.  Watch for that, even though that isn't
needed for THIS - you'll want it for Apple][, TRS80 model 1, C64, Amiga,
CGA, etc.

For those that don't, cable the RF output of the Coco to the analog TV
antenna input of the TV card.  Tell the Coco that it is connected to a TV
(as if it cares); tell the TV card and connected computer that it is
receiving an over-the-air broadcast on channel 3.  If you can't do cables,
connect an antenna [and maybe a linear amp] to the RF output of the Coco,
Tune the TV card to cvhannel 3, and keep an eye over your shoulder for FCC
broadcast enforcement.


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:28:39 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:28:39 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112122135.pBCLZ1OJ013102@floodgap.com>
References: <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <201112122135.pBCLZ1OJ013102@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEyjM_Rs=1MK4dkAg5UhDju2hB5QiaLCBZh81g8irtsrw@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 21:35, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
>> Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
>> name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
>> versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
>> made a comeback.
>
> *cough*Lion*cough*

Well, all right, yes, true - but it's not quite the same, is it? :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:30:39 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:30:39 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGvE6K0jRBJBkV_fDPY2=02gApfoNeX90vUbuLD97dNBA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 21:19, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:18:35 +0000
> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Well, that's true, but until the 1990s, it was primarily a commercial
>> product, no? The one that influenced everybody most, and got licensed,
>> was AT&T, mainly System V, not BSD, is that not so?
> The Unix of the 80'is was BSD. It was more advanced then SysV in many
> ways. (TCP/IP networking e.g.) Only when the founding of the CSRG at
> UCB and thus BSD came to an end, vendors switched to SysV. BSD heavily
> influenced anything that folowed it. E.g. the socket(2) API, vi(1),
> lpr(1), ...

OK, fair enough. Before my time!

>> IIRC, Solaris, HP/UX, AIX, SCO Unix and UnixWare, OSF/1 etc. all
>> contained SysV code? (Even if not the kernel.)
> Solaris is a child of the early 90'is. SunOS, its predecessor, was BSD.
> AIX is no real Unix at all. It just happens to look a bit like Unix. ;-)
> IBMs AOS was a BSD port.
> SCO, yes, SysV.
> IRIX, SysV.

Right... so far, so good... :?)

> OSF/1 is a MACH kernel

I knew that...

> with lots of BSD on top. You can realy feel
> that Ultrix, its predecessor in the 80'is, was a BSD. I am a BSD person
> and I immediately felt "at home" when I touched OSF/1 first.

Ah. This I did not know.

> There isn't much difference betwen SysV and BSD these days. BSD got
> things like SysV shared memory, SysV got socket(2), ...

[Nod]

>> The thing that I like - which used to cause protests, but it appears
>> to be fading now - is that after some 2 decades of busy, rapid
>> open-source Unix development, it is now getting to the point where it
>> is approaching the degree of user-friendliness of the best commercial
>> systems. In some areas, it's ahead; in some, behind. But it's getting
>> there, even when this is over the protesting howls of the Unix
>> old-timers.
> Well. Thats why I say: Linux evolved from a free Unix clone for Unix
> lovers into a bad Windows surrogate for M$ haters. ;-)

Ahahaha! Excellent!


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 12 17:38:17 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:38:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <387547830-1323721024-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-296527566-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <387547830-1323721024-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-296527566-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <20111212152935.G64360@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Vintage Coder wrote:
> Thanks. Sounds pretty gruesome.

Thanks for trimming
BUT, could use a LITTLE context.  WHICH "solution" is gruesome?

To summarize, . . .
Coco has RF channel 3 output, with almost-NTSC available with trivial
mods.
You need anything that can display composite almost-NTSC,
OR
anything that can tune analog channel 3 (USA spec) foloowed by whatever
can display what you get.  A "TV card" is a TV tuner - you just need one
that can do analog channel 3.  OR the tuner of a VCR OR the tuner of a DVD
recorder OR some cable boxes OR some closed caption external boxes.
OR any TV that has analog input - look at Digital Prism 7" for about $50






From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 12 17:41:22 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:41:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111212154018.F64360@shell.lmi.net>

> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals.

What does your Coco output?





From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 12 17:44:39 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:44:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <693F15D6-7F90-4D64-A804-1F1579E65363@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111212154249.V64360@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, David Riley wrote:
> I should have mentioned: if the video output is anything like the
> original Nintendo, it's going to look much better on a crappy old analog
> TV than anything else because of the lovely low-pass filter the loose
> tolerances and shoddy electronics provide. :-)

To get peak performance, use unshielded wires and twist them together
loosely instead of connectors.  If it isn't a signal-hostile environment,
the machine won't feel at-home.








From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:44:51 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:44:51 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <3B37E806-A96B-4C93-8545-28D8128B8256@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/12/2011 12:15 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
>>> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
>>> nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
>>> viewing applications get a bit ugly.
>> 
>> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
>> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
>> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
>> connections?
> 
>  Indeed, those are the SAME signals!  Think about it. :)

Oh, I realized he meant the modulated outputs from a computer/console.  Yeah, same signal, less propagation loss over coax.  And it's really just the composite video signal modulated by a carrier; normally, if something only provides the RF out (like the CoCo, as folks have mentioned), you can tap the composite signal somewhere further up the chain if you need the baseband signal.

- Dave




From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 12 17:53:34 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:53:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> from Jochen
 Kunz at "Dec 12, 11 10:19:43 pm"
Message-ID: <201112122353.pBCNrY2r008154@floodgap.com>

> AIX is no real Unix at all. It just happens to look a bit like Unix. ;-)

It's an interesting dichotomy: internally, AIX is nothing like Unix, yet it
is part of that handful of commercial operating systems certified as UNIX(tm)
03 (with Solaris, HP/UX and, yes, Mac OS X).

Allegedly the earliest versions were SVR1 and -2 derivatives, but 3.2.5 was
already diverging and I don't think there's any of that code left in the
kernel now.

I liked OSF/1 a lot.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Architecture is the art of how to waste space. -- Philip Johnson -----------


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 17:53:39 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 18:53:39 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <34F0D0B5-38F2-42EA-B6CA-E3FA374086B7@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/12/2011 01:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
>>>> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>>> 
>>> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
>> is fun.  Ah, the real days of low security....)
> 
>  Same here, and learning new things in general.  The day I stop learning, and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.

I suppose the difference, and what Liam is getting at, is that he's tired of learning new OSes.  I'm tired of learning new math, and I don't intend to get further than I already have unless there's a pressing need (linear algebra has served me well enough, and I know enough multivariable calculus to get by).  We all have things that we're tired of learning, but I think there's a stark difference from being tired of learning *something* and being tired of learning.

- Dave




From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 12 18:04:30 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:04:30 -0800
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 16:50, Dave McGuire wrote:

>    Same here, and learning new things in general.  The day I stop
> learning, and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.

A habit I've had since childhood is not going to bed without having 
learned at least one new thing every day.  Most of the time the item 
learned  has nothing to do with electronics or computers.

In the entire history of the human race, it's never been easier.

Stay curious,
Chuck



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:15:47 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:15:47 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112122128.pBCLSRrr017586@floodgap.com>
References: <201112122128.pBCLSRrr017586@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EE69933.2030903@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 4:28 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>>> OS X delivers a very solid OS with great dev tools [...]
>>>
>>> Seriously?
>>>
>>> If you think Xcode is "great dev tools", then you need to get out more.
>>
>> I feel like XCode used to be *better* dev tools.  Honestly, I was most fond
>> of medium-early versions of CodeWarrior (before OS X, before OS 9, really;
>> the early "pro" versions), though that may be nostalgia talking more than
>> accurate recollection.  XCode, like everything else, seems to have bloated
>> and gotten creaky with age (and I think the UI overhaul in 4.0 was a major
>> step backwards).
>
> I can't stand Xcode 4, it seems to have been written by someone who doesn't
> understand IDEs. I'd sooner use Eclipse. I could barely tolerate 2.x.
>
> For that matter, Objective-C drives me crazy.
>
> I use CodeWarrior 7 for Classilla and frankly there's no Mac development
> tool that even comes close. The debugger is delightful, if "debugger" and
> "delightful" can ever occur in the same utterance, and it integrates
> well with MPW and all the other build tools that Jobs II Apple swept out.
>
> The programs I create on OS X all compile from the command line. If I
> absolutely have to use Xcode to build something, it's with xcodebuild, not
> with GUI Xcode.
>

Same here. One important thing I keep 10.4+Classic around for is MPW...

--T



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:16:53 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:16:53 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 3:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can
>> you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very
>> poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is
>> neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>
>    Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
> commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:
>
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo
> gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>
>
>    And GCC also has trouble with extentions:
>
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>cp hello.c hello.foo
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gcc hello.foo
> hello.foo: file not recognized: File format not recognized
> collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gcc hello.c
> [spc]lucy:/tmp>
>
>    Those are the only ones that I can name off the top of my head, but it's
> still annoying (especially the gunzip one).

Errr... again, these are *programs*, not Unix...

--Toby

>
>    -spc (Only recently learned about libmagic ... )
>
>
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:20:07 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:20:07 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E1RaAzL-0004lF-5r@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <E1RaAzL-0004lF-5r@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EE69A37.3080102@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 1:52 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB at shiresoft.com>,
>      Guy Sotomayor<ggs at shiresoft.com>  writes:
>
>> It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
>> Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [3-letter extension format]
>
> Wait, you mean the limitation that is present on RSTS/E, RT-11,
> RSX-11, TOPS-10, TOPS-20 (and probably a bunch more DEC OSes) and
> CP/M?
>
> In other words: this mental model of a 3-letter file extension was
> around LONG before Microsoft.

A modern system with this limitation would be very awkward indeed, as 
many extensions are now specified with more than 3 characters.

--Toby


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:25:35 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:25:35 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE69B7F.5090107@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 14:08, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>> On 12/12/11 5:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber<als at thangorodrim.de>
>>>   wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com>    wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>>>>>>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>>>>>>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>>>>>>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   UNIX shell wildcards?  A question mark matches any single character,
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> asterisk matches any number of any characters.  What's so tough about
>>>>>> that?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>>>>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>>>>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>>>>> things like:
>>>>>
>>>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>>>
>>>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Wrong tool.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
>>>> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
>>>>
>>>>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>>>>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
>>>> far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
>>>> filename. ...
>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, I know. It's not that, I have no problem with that. The thing is
>>> that in the<ironic>wonderful world of the Web</ironic>, extensions
>>> are once again part of the deal - stuff like .html and .jpg and .png
>>> and whatnot all suddenly become very significant, even if the server
>>> and client are both Unix machines.
>>>
>>
>> How does that show that representing extensions as part of a file name
>> string is problematic?
>>
>> Extensions have 2 functions in Unix:
>>   * aide-memoire for the user including a large set of conventions;
>>   * (later) compatibility with legacy systems.
>>
>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can you
>> give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very poorly"? (Your
>> faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is neither about Unix
>> (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>
>> In the case of the web, browsers are supposed to pay attention to
>> Content-Type, not sniff by extension. (Yes, I know Apache can be configured
>> to sniff extensions. Again, this works just fine with Unix' representation.)
>>
>>> Plus, Unixes such as Mac OS X use extensions as important metadata, as
>>> must any Linux which interoperates with Windows - which is to say most
>>> of them. Extensions are important to LibreOffice and so on, for
>>> example.
>>
>>
>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially absent,
>> though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>
> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.

And this is wonderful. Do you really want filenames with multiple 
fields?! Can you then imagine how you could use the powerful tools 
available on such names, with equal ease? Such needless complication 
would be much harder to implement and learn. Next you'll be saying we 
should write and store documents in XML! ;-)

>
> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
> something-dot-bar.

I think this thread started with mentions of the endless Unix-based 
facilities for doing this.

>
> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.
>
> But that's OK. As it is on the Mac, use of the CLI is on the wane in
> modern Linux, too. I suspect many happy Ubuntu users can get by with
> never using the Terminal, except occasionally to copy-and-paste some
> command in from the web or from a support tech. And that's just fine
> and I think that the progression will continue.
>
> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.
>
> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
> never, ever use it.

That would be accurate, in my experience.

 > If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
>
>
>

I think Linux needs to get to that point; I've argued so for at least 10 
years. But I am not sure Ubuntu will be the vehicle.

--Toby


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:26:27 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:26:27 -0500
Subject: HTTP Content-Type - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <201112121442.pBCEgg0j029545@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121442.pBCEgg0j029545@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EE69BB3.7040401@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 9:35 AM, John Foust wrote:
> At 08:08 AM 12/12/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>
> So Apple hid the four bytes of the extension in the resource fork, plus
> other stuff.
>
> Unix hides metadata about files, too - timestamp, owner, permissions - and
> they certainly quickly adopted naming conventions since, oh, 'a.out'.
>
> If someone chose to create their C source files with a '.o' extension
> and their makefile made object files ending in '.c', it would be widely
> recognized as a joke, right?

See: HTTP Content-Type. It's frequently wrong, out there on the intertubes.

--Toby


>
> - John
>
>



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 18:26:53 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:26:53 -0500
Subject: NetInfo,
 was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <E754EEE4-8BC8-467C-AF07-0FE1E76F8162@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 5:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/12/2011 09:10 AM, Mark Benson wrote:
>> Hmm yes. The word 'netinfo' still strikes fear into the souls of
>> people who tried to configure stuff like NFS exports on early OS X
>> versions :S
> 
>  It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP.  Apparently Netinfo had a hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just Would Not Let It Go for way too long.
> 
>  It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X.  Good riddance.

I think my biggest problem with it was that it reminded me too much of Windows' registry.  There are apparently a lot of people who think that's a good idea, too.


- Dave


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:31:33 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:31:33 -0500
Subject: Versioning files =?windows-1252?Q?=E0_la_VMS_-_Re=3A_U?=
 =?windows-1252?Q?nix_handles_file_extensions_=22very_poorly=22?=
 =?windows-1252?Q?=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 2:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> ...
> Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
> name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
> versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
> made a comeback.

It's not as if Unix doesn't offer sophisticated versioning systems - and 
several flavours of versioning filesystems if you are so inclined. I do 
not think it need be an overloading of filenames, though. Version 
control has moved on significantly since 1980...

--T

>
> As to file extensions: well, much as I liked the classic MacOS
> system, with strong, meaningful file metadata, even if hidden, the
> plain old file-extension system works fairly well....


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:34:05 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:34:05 -0500
Subject: NetInfo, was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free
 - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 5:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/12/2011 09:10 AM, Mark Benson wrote:
>> Hmm yes. The word 'netinfo' still strikes fear into the souls of
>> people who tried to configure stuff like NFS exports on early OS X
>> versions :S
>
> It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP. Apparently Netinfo had a
> hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just Would
> Not Let It Go for way too long.
>

I always assumed it was Steve. Or, wild-ass guess: Tevanian?



> It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X. Good
> riddance.


Is it really worse than NIS/YP (in fact NetInfo gives me the impression 
it was meant to supersede it?)

--Toby


>
> -Dave
>



From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net  Mon Dec 12 18:36:36 2011
From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:36:36 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EE68153.2463.23B0BB0D@brian.quarterbyte.com>
References: <4EE68153.2463.23B0BB0D@brian.quarterbyte.com>
Message-ID: <CAEvVyqFywtassV1c+s1_Jd14J3K1U4YW01rrXBbDZkU8E5YfgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:33 PM, Brian Knittel <brian at quarterbyte.com>wrote:

> For the "very poorly" category, I'd like to nominate the DOS & Windows
> command line globbing semantics, where ? matches one character OR
> NOTHING. Likewise, ?? matches zero, one or two characters. And ???
> matches zero, one, two or three characters.
>
> So,
>
>   del *.?
>
> will not delete just "file.a", it will delete "file" as well.
> This sort of sets the gold standard for poor behavior.
>
> Even Microsoft is at odds with itself about what ? means. In the
> Windows world, the command shell doesn't expand wildcards. Applications
> have to do it for themselves. The Visual Studio C runtime library
> globbing routine incorrectly states that '?' matches "exactly one
> char". So even some of their own developers aren't aware of this.
>
> Brian
>
> In UNIX the shell instead of the application expands *.  That has all sort
of fun effects... like you can type rm * .foo instead of rm *.foo

Fun fun fun... been there, done that.



-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net

--------

The barman says "sorry we dont serve faster than light particles in here",
a neutrino walks into a bar!


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 12 18:44:34 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:44:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>, 
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>, 
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
Message-ID: <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
> Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char]
> format for a file name.

char[char][char][char][char][char][char][char](.)[char][char][char]

There MUST be at least one character at the beginning of the filename. The
remaining 7 positions, and the three of the "extension" are padded out
with spaces  if not used, and no non-space character can FOLLOW a space in
either field ("undefined" behavior results from embedded spaces (F 3.C)),
although the command line parser will treat any spaces in the command
line as delimiters. (It will assume that FILENAM .C or F 3.C are each two
items, not single names.)

Microsoft (Patterson) lifted THAT directly from CP/M.


Who did Gary Kildall lift it from?




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 12 18:51:30 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:51:30 -0500
Subject: "Resource" and other file forks - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <E1RaEWo-0000p9-Q8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>,
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <4EE5E911.10152.7044E7@cclist.sydex.com>
 <E1RaEWo-0000p9-Q8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6A192.2020508@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 5:39 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<4EE5E911.10152.7044E7 at cclist.sydex.com>,
>      "Chuck Guzis"<cclist at sydex.com>  writes:
>
>> No, and that's a weakness.  As much as I'm not used to admitting
>> Apple superiority, the resource fork has a lot going for it.
>
> Good dog, no.  The resource fork is horrible IMO.

What about general forks? (No dog in the race, just curious.)

--T



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 12 18:55:34 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:55:34 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E1RaEWo-0000p9-Q8@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>, <4EE5E911.10152.7044E7@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <E1RaEWo-0000p9-Q8@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EE63206.30635.18D4182@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 15:39, Richard wrote:

> Good dog, no.  The resource fork is horrible IMO.

Granted, it's not perfect.  But it's better than no hint at all as to 
what a file might represent.  The DOS/whatever convention of filename-
extension-dictating-content-type is nearly useless as the number of 
applications balloons.   It's a free-for-all out there, so an 
extension of XPZ, for example, can mean anything and gives no hint of 
what might have created the file.

While there are web sites such as http://www.fileextension.org/ that 
offer suggestions, there are plenty of applications using similar 
extensions that bear no relation to those applications itemized.

If this were a better world, each file would be preceded by an ID 
block that identified the program creating the file; the name of the 
last program to modify the file and other such useful information.   
User applications would be locked out from modifying that 
information, although they could freely interrogate it.

--Chuck


From halarewich at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 19:03:52 2011
From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:03:52 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <1032421104-1323690691-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1679957025-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <CA+A6M=j9=mJVaZfJkFJ5PMWnEEWRu6LGWo03t5Uc4VDAr8_8Zg@mail.gmail.com>

here are some composite~hdmi and composite~dvi converters


http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=composite+dvi

http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=composite+hdmi

chris

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 3:51 AM, Vintage Coder <vintagecoder at aol.com> wrote:

> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What are
> you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there a
> device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to
> dream, DVI?  What do you call such a converter? Thanks.
>


From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 19:25:36 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:25:36 +0000
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEvdqYEu_g8z8apLVPrY5NKHAFSaMzuAspvMtKjXKeXkg@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 21:50, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> On 12/12/2011 01:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>>>
>>>
>>> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
>>
>> is fun. ?Ah, the real days of low security....)
>
> ?Same here, and learning new things in general. ?The day I stop learning,
> and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.

Ahh, but learning what?

I am quite passionate about learning new languages. I speak a tiny
smattering of half a dozen; I would like to get them all to fluency
and add a few more. I am vaguely considering doing a degree in it.

I would love to learn to surf, to snowboard, to hang-glide, to fly a
helicopter, to play several musical instruments and many other things.

It's the arcana of the next generation of Windows, or of this year's
Linux desktop, that I am growing tired of.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 19:32:54 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:32:54 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <008201ccb921$2d1df8a0$d1fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <008201ccb921$2d1df8a0$d1fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGwkJjOa9BiHJqbnuMCuGLYBnG3k8EMrK6oxm-V06KvsA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 22:48, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 08, 2011 1:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
>
>
>> On 7 December 2011 21:32, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Most mobile phones (atleast the ones I have seen) have 2 options -
>> > predictive text (T9 mode on my 8 year old mobile phone) and ABC mode.
> There
>> > should be a way to switch it to ABC mode, though some mobiles have
>> > predictive text on as default (so you have to turn it off every time you
>> > need to text).
>> > I have yet to meet anyone that actually likes predictive text.
>>
>> [Waves] Hi!
>
>
> I asked for that didn't I... :)

Well... yup. :?)

>> It's fine once you get used to it. It really does use fewer keystrokes
>> - quite a lot fewer.
>>
>> It's great if you learn how to use it /if/ you are a relatively light
>> to moderate texter. Heavy users who want the absolute maximum speed,
>> however, seem to favour non-predictive entry, as it is deterministic,
>> so you don't need to wait and see what emerges. Predictive text is
>> interactive: you press the keys, just once each, for each letter, then
>> you step through the offered words, pick the one you want and move on
>> - or teach the phone the new word. This means that the list of
>> offerings changes over time, and that means it's non-deterministic.
>> Some phones put the new words on the end of the list, some on the
>> beginning, but either way, it will be a different number of choices to
>> loop through the list.
>>
>
> Admittedly, I have never really used predictive text that much. I am a
> creature of habit and much prefer doing it the way I have always done.

Ah, well, this is the thing.

T9 is a little intimidating if you very rarely text, and if you text a
huge amount at very high speed, it's obstructive. (Like touch-typing
*for me.* I am pretty fast with 3-4 fingers (40wpm sustained, 80 in
bursts), very slow with 10 - so I have not improved in decades.)

But for the majority of texters, from fairly low volume to the dozens
a day bracket, it's actually a timesaver - /if/ you take the time to
learn it.

Many of my 40something friends could not do it. Several I goaded into
learning with gentle mockery. Those that have learned now really like
it - especially once they've taught their phones their personal
vocabulary.

An it reducs or elimin8s "txt spk" which is smthg tht prsnlly I
absltly h8 n Dtest.

I *loathe* the clipped, abbreviated style of English that many
non-predictive-texters use. T9 works with words and encourages you to
use whole ones. This is a Very Good Thing.

> It's a bit like programming on the Spectrum... I learnt programming by
> typing out each command. It wasn't until later that I discovered the 48K
> method (one key for each instruction) and (as with predictive text) my
> instant reaction was that I didn't like it. But that's just me...

So you started on a 128, then? ;?)

Those of us who started on 48s didn't have a choice. (Until I bought
Beta BASIC from Dr Andy Wright, which is still one of my very
favourite programming languages 30y later.)


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 19:35:27 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:35:27 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>

On 12 December 2011 22:43, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>> There are certain commands I've come across that handles extentions
>> poorly. ?Like gunzip:
>
>> [spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
>> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo
>> gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
>> [spc]lucy:/tmp>
>
> Yes. ?Annoying, but understandable - without the .gz on there, how is
> it to know what file to put the result in?

*Shudder*

Your acceptable peculiarity is my hated misfeature.

> ?Of course, we could get
> into the upsides and downsides of filesystem version numbers, but
> that's a separate bikeshed. ?(Workaround, moderately specific to gzip,
> and good for only a single file: gunzip < x-grey.tar.foo > whatever)

True. Or, as I usually do these days, use File-roller. :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From jgessling at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 12 19:38:06 2011
From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:38:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Follow up on the PDT 11/150 recent posting
Message-ID: <1323740286.81811.YahooMailNeo@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

I got the picture scanned in that triggered my previous post so I include the link for your enjoyment.
http://uaskies.blogspot.com/2011/12/pdt-11150-and-kids.html

Regards, Jim


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 19:47:10 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 17:47:10 -0800
Subject: Craigslist Wang - Seattle, WA
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+G=yRV1xcL+RCMQJC89X9OsFWLvBkRjX5mf75uZjtOxw@mail.gmail.com>

Can anyone id this Wang system? Looks like maybe a box on a desk with
another box in the desk with maybe an 8" floppy?

http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/sys/2746923849.html

Also, a Tek 4051 system and accessories asking $550.

(No connection to this listing other than it being local to me.)


From RichA at vulcan.com  Mon Dec 12 19:52:14 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:52:14 +0000
Subject: Unix as a tool (was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E82F9@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Ian King
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:32 AM

On 12/11/11 8:25 PM, "Alexander Schreiber" <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:

>> Hehe. If you are in the programmer/systems engineering mindset, it is
>> all perfectly logical and is in fact an incredible powerful tool. If you
>> are not ... well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
>> boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)

> Are you accusing me of mumbling?  :-)  -- Ian

You've been known to. ;->  --rma






From lproven at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 20:51:41 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 02:51:41 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE69B7F.5090107@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69B7F.5090107@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFcrd_ueeZ3Vr6twvWmzAGx6+=P51Q+DNWo_6N-RcbhaQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 December 2011 00:25, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 12/12/11 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> On 12 December 2011 14:08, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au> ?wrote:
>>> On 12/12/11 5:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>> On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber<als at thangorodrim.de>
>>>> ?wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com>
>>>>>> ?wrote:
>>>>>>> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>>>>>>>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>>>>>>>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>>>>>>>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character,
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about
>>>>>>> that?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>>>>>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>>>>>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>>>>>> things like:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>>>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>>>>
>>>>> Wrong tool.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
>>>>> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
>>>>>
>>>>>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>>>>>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>>>>>
>>>>> Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
>>>>> far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
>>>>> filename. ...
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I know. It's not that, I have no problem with that. The thing is
>>>> that in the<ironic>wonderful world of the Web</ironic>, extensions
>>>> are once again part of the deal - stuff like .html and .jpg and .png
>>>> and whatnot all suddenly become very significant, even if the server
>>>> and client are both Unix machines.
>>>
>>> How does that show that representing extensions as part of a file name
>>> string is problematic?
>>>
>>> Extensions have 2 functions in Unix:
>>> ?* aide-memoire for the user including a large set of conventions;
>>> ?* (later) compatibility with legacy systems.
>>>
>>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can
>>> you
>>> give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very poorly"?
>>> (Your
>>> faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is neither about Unix
>>> (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>>
>>> In the case of the web, browsers are supposed to pay attention to
>>> Content-Type, not sniff by extension. (Yes, I know Apache can be
>>> configured
>>> to sniff extensions. Again, this works just fine with Unix'
>>> representation.)
>>>
>>>> Plus, Unixes such as Mac OS X use extensions as important metadata, as
>>>> must any Linux which interoperates with Windows - which is to say most
>>>> of them. Extensions are important to LibreOffice and so on, for
>>>> example.
>>>
>>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
>>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
>>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
>>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
>>> absent,
>>> though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>>
>> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
>> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.
>
> And this is wonderful. Do you really want filenames with multiple fields?!
> Can you then imagine how you could use the powerful tools available on such
> names, with equal ease? Such needless complication would be much harder to
> implement and learn. Next you'll be saying we should write and store
> documents in XML! ;-)

Now let's not get carried away here! ;?)

>> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
>> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
>> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
>> something-dot-bar.
>
> I think this thread started with mentions of the endless Unix-based
> facilities for doing this.

There are, yes, but they are, IME, *significantly* more complex to use
(and therefore to learn to use) than DOS' or CMD.EXE's.

Another issue is that they are not always very portable across
different implementations of Unix, e.g. Linux versus Mac OS X.

>> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
>> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
>> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
>> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
>> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
>> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.
>>
>> But that's OK. As it is on the Mac, use of the CLI is on the wane in
>> modern Linux, too. I suspect many happy Ubuntu users can get by with
>> never using the Terminal, except occasionally to copy-and-paste some
>> command in from the web or from a support tech. And that's just fine
>> and I think that the progression will continue.
>>
>> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.
>>
>> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
>> never, ever use it.
>
> That would be accurate, in my experience.

That's good to know. Do you think it is a problem (or at least a
shame) or that it's absolutely fine?
>
>> If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
>>
>> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
>>
> I think Linux needs to get to that point; I've argued so for at least 10
> years. But I am not sure Ubuntu will be the vehicle.

Well, perhaps not - but it's closer than anything else has ever come.

Well, except Android, I guess, but it's playing in a different game.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Mon Dec 12 21:05:02 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:05:02 -0800
Subject: Versioning files =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E0_la_VMS_=2D_Re?= : U nix
 handles file extensions "very poorly"  ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>

At 7:31 PM -0500 12/12/11, Toby Thain wrote:
>On 12/12/11 2:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>...
>>Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
>>name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
>>versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
>>made a comeback.
>
>It's not as if Unix doesn't offer sophisticated versioning systems - 
>and several flavours of versioning filesystems if you are so 
>inclined. I do not think it need be an overloading of filenames, 
>though. Version control has moved on significantly since 1980...

I for one would love a proper versioning filesystem like the VMS 
ODS-2 filesystem!  It's one of the many reasons VMS is my favorite OS.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 12 21:12:53 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:12:53 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 10:19:43PM +0100, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:18:35 +0000
> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > The thing that I like - which used to cause protests, but it appears
> > to be fading now - is that after some 2 decades of busy, rapid
> > open-source Unix development, it is now getting to the point where it
> > is approaching the degree of user-friendliness of the best commercial
> > systems. In some areas, it's ahead; in some, behind. But it's getting
> > there, even when this is over the protesting howls of the Unix
> > old-timers.
> Well. Thats why I say: Linux evolved from a free Unix clone for Unix
> lovers into a bad Windows surrogate for M$ haters. ;-)

Ah, I disagree. One certainly _can_ run whatever crap Ubuntu decides to
call the default graphics interface today, but one doesn't _have_ to.

There are plenty of more useful and usable (from my POV) alternatives.
I've been using pretty much the same UI for the last 12+ years: Windowmaker
WM[0], a metric ton of xterms (20-50, X is a _great_ graphical terminal
multiplexer, especially with the right window manager) and a graphical web
browser with a couple windows open, all of it on plain Debian. Most of what
I want to do gets done inside an xterm anyway.

I've actually tried to use a Mac (Mac Notebook) a year or two ago at work.
Couldn't get any work done and gave it back after a month, returning to the
Thinkpad running Linux and a variant of the above (mostly, fewer xterms *g*).

That's what I like about (reasonably modern) Unix systems: you can set them
up any kind of way to fit the user, they are extremly flexible.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
[0] Big plus for WindowMaker in my book: it can be very easily controlled
    via the keyboard only, mouse only needed to move windows (due to laziness)
    and it has a pretty nice virtual desktop model.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From ggs at shiresoft.com  Mon Dec 12 21:27:46 2011
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:27:46 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <B8A321B2-A2F9-4F27-BCE2-98B2792F287C@shiresoft.com>


On Dec 12, 2011, at 4:44 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
>> Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char]
>> format for a file name.
> 
> char[char][char][char][char][char][char][char](.)[char][char][char]

That's just ugly (and I believe not correct)!  ;-)

What I meant to type was:
([char])+[.[char][char][char]]

However, in the shell to match only 8.3 format names would be:
+(?)?(.?(???))

> 
> There MUST be at least one character at the beginning of the filename. The
> remaining 7 positions, and the three of the "extension" are padded out
> with spaces  if not used, and no non-space character can FOLLOW a space in
> either field ("undefined" behavior results from embedded spaces (F 3.C)),
> although the command line parser will treat any spaces in the command
> line as delimiters. (It will assume that FILENAM .C or F 3.C are each two
> items, not single names.)

That's the "on-disk" representation not what would be specified on the command line.

TTFN - Guy




From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 12 21:15:18 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:15:18 +0100
Subject: Unix as a tool (was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne)
In-Reply-To: <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CB0B6AEF.9BF8%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <20111213031518.GD15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 04:32:28PM +0000, Ian King wrote:
> On 12/11/11 8:25 PM, "Alexander Schreiber" <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> 
> >[snip]
> >Hehe. If you are in the programmer/systems engineering mindset, it is
> >all perfectly logical and is in fact an incredible powerful tool. If you
> >are not ... well, old, bearded men mumbling incomprehensible things over
> >boiling and smoking cauldrons come to mind ;-)
> 
> Are you accusing me of mumbling?  :-)  -- Ian

Who, me? *scratches beard*
No, I didn't hear anybody ;-)

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 12 21:20:02 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:20:02 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF=m3km69JCVAos054t8T-LNOqqr03QO42R3WaywJfMFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCF=m3km69JCVAos054t8T-LNOqqr03QO42R3WaywJfMFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111213032002.GE15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 04:23:08PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 15:34, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Dec 12, 2011, at 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >
> >> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
> >> never, ever use it. If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
> >> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
> >
> > Well yes, and that's the key, isn't it? ?I think the single most infuriating part of Windows to me is that the system configuration isn't in human-readable text files, it's in inscrutable key/value pairs in a giant global registry. ?It makes it impossible to have any real kind of manual control over the operation of the system unless you are a warlock. ?On Linux and OS X, you can almost always edit a text file somewhere that will be vaguely understandable even if you've never seen it.
> 
> On Linux, yes - if you can find it and then if you can parse the
> format, as there is no standard at all and it ranges from INI files
> (as used by Samba) to early pre-Demotic hieroglyphs transcribed in
> Minoan Linear A and then written in early Sumerian cuneiform (e.g.,
> Sendmail.cf).
> 
> But OS X? If it's in a file it's probably XML but the chances are it's
> in netinfo somewhere...

*urrrggg* netinfo? That ... thing _still_ hasn't died? I remember
people cursing it quite colorfully during the NextStep days ...

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 21:30:55 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:30:55 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6C6EF.8040902@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 07:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>     Same here, and learning new things in general.  The day I stop
>> learning, and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.
>
> A habit I've had since childhood is not going to bed without having
> learned at least one new thing every day.  Most of the time the item
> learned  has nothing to do with electronics or computers.

   I do a similar thing; at the end of the day I look back and remember 
what I learned.  This determines, to a large extent, whether I consider 
the day to have been a success or a failure.

   My stuff almost always has to do with electronics or computers, though.

> In the entire history of the human race, it's never been easier.

   This is true, we are very lucky!

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From eric at brouhaha.com  Mon Dec 12 21:31:19 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:31:19 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>,
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>,
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE6C707.20300@brouhaha.com>

Fred Cisin wrote:
 > Who did Gary Kildall lift it from?

It seems to me that some of Kildall's major sources of inspiration were 
DEC operating systems such as TOPS-10, RT11, and OS/8.  However, CP/M 
doesn't exactly match any of those.

"Monitor", the predecessor of TOPS-10, used filespecs with (up to) six 
character filenames and three character extensions, starting in 1964 on 
DECtape.  (Disk support arrived in 1967.)  Were there any earlier 
operating systems that had similar filespecs?



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 21:32:46 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:32:46 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <3B37E806-A96B-4C93-8545-28D8128B8256@gmail.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
 <3B37E806-A96B-4C93-8545-28D8128B8256@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 06:44 PM, David Riley wrote:
>>>> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them
>>>> work nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows,
>>>> though the actual viewing applications get a bit ugly.
>>>
>>> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I
>>> thought it would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals.
>>> Are you saying they have input jacks that would work with old
>>> computers that had TV output connections?
>>
>> Indeed, those are the SAME signals!  Think about it. :)
>
> Oh, I realized he meant the modulated outputs from a
> computer/console.  Yeah, same signal, less propagation loss over
> coax.

   The RF?  More propagation loss, not less.

> And it's really just the composite video signal modulated by a
> carrier;

   Carrier modulated by the composite video signal, actually. (sorry)

> normally, if something only provides the RF out (like the
> CoCo, as folks have mentioned), you can tap the composite signal
> somewhere further up the chain if you need the baseband signal.

   Yes.  The first time I did this was with a Timex/Sinclair 1000.  That 
wasn't the first mod, though...the first thing it got was a reset 
button, as I was doing lots of assembler hacking on it. ;)

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 21:33:42 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:33:42 -0500
Subject: NetInfo, was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free
 - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <E754EEE4-8BC8-467C-AF07-0FE1E76F8162@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>
 <E754EEE4-8BC8-467C-AF07-0FE1E76F8162@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6C796.2020604@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 07:26 PM, David Riley wrote:
>>   It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP.  Apparently Netinfo had a hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just Would Not Let It Go for way too long.
>>
>>   It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X.  Good riddance.
>
> I think my biggest problem with it was that it reminded me too much of Windows' registry.  There are apparently a lot of people who think that's a good idea, too.

   Whew, that's a real head-shaker.  To steal a phrase from my friend 
Jon...there are lots of people in this industry who would be better 
suited to making sure my burger is cooked thoroughly.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 21:35:21 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:35:21 -0500
Subject: NetInfo, was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free
 - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 07:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> Hmm yes. The word 'netinfo' still strikes fear into the souls of
>>> people who tried to configure stuff like NFS exports on early OS X
>>> versions :S
>>
>> It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP. Apparently Netinfo had a
>> hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just Would
>> Not Let It Go for way too long.
>
> I always assumed it was Steve. Or, wild-ass guess: Tevanian?

   Yes, Avi Tevanian!  I'm almost positive it was him.

>> It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X. Good
>> riddance.
>
> Is it really worse than NIS/YP (in fact NetInfo gives me the impression
> it was meant to supersede it?)

   Nope, but it's just as bad.

   It wasn't meant to supersede it, though.  It was written only for use 
in NeXTSTEP; only later was it ported to other platforms, and only then 
(if memory serves) by a different company, not NeXT Computer.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 12 21:32:13 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:32:13 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCG1k5VPzCKXz=PFscQo2wSzUKzqeXrCAdwpbpbkz7biBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCG1k5VPzCKXz=PFscQo2wSzUKzqeXrCAdwpbpbkz7biBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111213033213.GF15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 01:26:34PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> >> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
> >> > On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
> >> >> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
> >> >> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
> >> >> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
> >> >
> >> > ?UNIX shell wildcards? ?A question mark matches any single character, an
> >> > asterisk matches any number of any characters. ?What's so tough about that?
> >>
> >> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
> >> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
> >> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
> >> things like:
> >>
> >> REN *.log *.old
> >>
> >> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
> >> work on Unix/Linux.
> >
> > Wrong tool.
> >
> > If you want to do the above, use mmv:
> > mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
> 
> Fascinating. I have installed it and will investigate - it looks interesting.
> 
> What does the #1 denote in there, though?

Substitution symbol for whatever the first wildcard matched. The same goes
for #2, #3, ... mmv is a _very_ useful tool.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 12 21:49:14 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 19:49:14 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>,
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 16:44, Fred Cisin wrote:

> There MUST be at least one character at the beginning of the filename.
> The remaining 7 positions, and the three of the "extension" are padded
> out with spaces  if not used, and no non-space character can FOLLOW a
> space in either field ("undefined" behavior results from embedded
> spaces (F 3.C)), although the command line parser will treat any
> spaces in the command line as delimiters. (It will assume that FILENAM
> .C or F 3.C are each two items, not single names.)
> 
> Microsoft (Patterson) lifted THAT directly from CP/M.
> 
> Who did Gary Kildall lift it from?

ISIS :)

>From the ISIS-II user's guide:

"Some ISIS-II commands allow you to specify filenames using a wild 
card construct. This means you can use an asterisk (*) or a question 
mark (?)  to replace some or all of  the  characters  in  a  name  or 
 extension.  These  special  characters  mean  match anything when 
searching a directory for a filename. For example,  

name.  * - means match  any  filename  with  name  and  any  
extension  or without  an extension.  

* .  extension - means match any filename with extension and any 
name."  

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 12 22:01:38 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:01:38 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>,
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE65DA2.4181.2379842@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 16:44, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> > It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
> > Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char]
> > format for a file name.
> 
> char[char][char][char][char][char][char][char](.)[char][char][char]
> 
> There MUST be at least one character at the beginning of the filename.

The rules for asterisk wildcards are very different in the command 
mode of Win XP--and perhaps useless.

Suppose I create two long filenames, arglebargle2 and arglebargle3 
and I DIR arg*2.  The listing shows both files, but if I DIR arg*3, 
only arglebargle3 shows.  It seems that the DIR command in XP is 
incapable of differentiating between short and long names and 
consideres them both in file searches.

Also, the asterisk operates differently in XP; I*M*P*S matches 
IBMCOMPUTERS.  and ren I*M*P*S W*X*Y*Z results in a file name of 
WBMCOMPUTERSXYZ.  

So in XP command mode, you've got to be careful--it doesn't work the 
same as say, Windows 9x.

--Chuck



From chris at mainecoon.com  Mon Dec 12 22:15:43 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 20:15:43 -0800
Subject: NetInfo,
 was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <5FD07A99-73E4-46E3-A86E-1C0E239A1DBE@mainecoon.com>


On 12 Dec 2011, at 4:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

> 
> Is it really worse than NIS/YP (in fact NetInfo gives me the impression it was meant to supersede it?)

Incredibly, yes.  I still get a nervous tic when I think about it.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 22:41:06 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:41:06 -0500
Subject: NetInfo,
 was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <6E25DB10-D737-4702-8320-A7C53386229F@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 7:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

>> It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X. Good
>> riddance.
> 
> 
> Is it really worse than NIS/YP (in fact NetInfo gives me the impression it was meant to supersede it?)

It probably wouldn't have been a terrible idea if it had been used like NIS/YP, i.e. mostly in a networked workgroup context.  I think it's terrible as a local machine config repository.  Can't see the damned forest for the abstraction.

- Dave


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 22:47:22 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 23:47:22 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 7:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> A habit I've had since childhood is not going to bed without having 
> learned at least one new thing every day.  Most of the time the item 
> learned  has nothing to do with electronics or computers.
> 
> In the entire history of the human race, it's never been easier.

Or more dangerous; I've lost days on Wikipedia when I was meant to be getting contractually obligated things done. On the bright side, I now know all about the history of hand grenades and I know exactly how a Hammond organ works.  Both of these are worth knowing, but I would rather have come upon them at a more opportune time. :-)

- Dave





From spc at conman.org  Mon Dec 12 23:13:16 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:13:16 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
> On 12/12/11 3:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> >It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
> >>The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can
> >>you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very
> >>poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is
> >>neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
> >
> >   Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
> >commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:
> >
> >   And GCC also has trouble with extentions:
> >
> Errr... again, these are *programs*, not Unix...

  Again, what is *your* definition of Unix?  The Unix *kernel* only cares
that a filename does not contain '/' or a NUL byte (given that a NUL byte
terminates the filename) be less than N bytes in size (N varies, but is at
least 14).  

  The *rest* of the system, what the user interacts with, may care a bit
more about filenames and may make it a pain to use certain characters
(shells make it difficult to use spaces and some punctuation, certain
programs like gcc and gunzip care about extentions).  

  So I take it from your reply that you are talking about the *kernel* and
not the rest of the system.

  -spc (Sure, I could restrict myself to using just a Unix kernel, but I
	won't be very productive ... )


From spc at conman.org  Mon Dec 12 23:22:58 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:22:58 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated:
> On 12 December 2011 22:43, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
> >> There are certain commands I've come across that handles extentions
> >> poorly. ?Like gunzip:
> >
> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo
> >> gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>
> >
> > Yes. ?Annoying, but understandable - without the .gz on there, how is
> > it to know what file to put the result in?
> 
> *Shudder*
> 
> Your acceptable peculiarity is my hated misfeature.

  gunzip will create a file based on the filename but without the ".gz"
extension.  There are only a few choices I see for gunzip handing this:

  * extract to a temporary file, then replace the original contents of the
    given file with the extracted contents (expand "x-grey.tar.foo" and
    place the results in "x-grey.tar.foo")

  * extract to a file in another directory (say "/tmp") with the same name
    as the original.  Problem: What to do if the original file is already in
    "/tmp"?

  * extract to stdout.  Problem:  binary data to a tty could leave the tty
    with odd settings (or could crash it).

  * bitch, which is the current method.

  Assuming the Principle of Least Astonishment [1], that last option is the
best.  I could live with the first option, but that could be surprising to
some people.

  -spc (Still likes his command line ... )

[1]	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_astonishment


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 12 23:24:16 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:24:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com>
References: <201112121752.pBCHqnP0014958@floodgap.com>
 <EBDDDB45-3686-47E0-9282-29C27E8CFFFB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112130524.AAA01828@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> So, since you mentioned it, what DID you to do to do that? :P
> I always hotplugged the SCSI cable, though I'm perfectly aware that's
> a terrible idea (and was then, too).

Is it?

I've done it often enough on various systems.  As far as I've been able
to tell, provided the bus is quiescent throughout the operation, and
the device starts out grounded to the same ground as the rest of the
system, there's no risk to anything.  Am I missing something?

Of course, arranging for the bus to be quiescent can be mildly
difficult.  On Suns I typically use L1-A to drop to ddb or the console,
Ctl-Alt-Esc on x86 to break to ddb, that sort of thing.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 23:25:12 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:25:12 -0500
Subject: Craigslist Wang - Seattle, WA
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+G=yRV1xcL+RCMQJC89X9OsFWLvBkRjX5mf75uZjtOxw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM2UOw+G=yRV1xcL+RCMQJC89X9OsFWLvBkRjX5mf75uZjtOxw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6E1B8.5070107@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 08:47 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> Can anyone id this Wang system? Looks like maybe a box on a desk with
> another box in the desk with maybe an 8" floppy?
>
> http://seattle.craigslist.org/est/sys/2746923849.html

   Looks like a Wang OIS 140.

> Also, a Tek 4051 system and accessories asking $550.

   OOH!  *BOING!*

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 12 23:32:41 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:32:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaCty-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaCty-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112130532.AAA01996@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I find they [solderless breadboards] save time.  Not so much because
>> it's faster to build something that way, but because it's a lot
>> easier to do experimental stuff that way, stuff that involves lots
>> of test-change-retest cycles,
> That actualyl is one of my dislikes of them.  They encourage 'fiddle
> until it seems to work' designing,

That's not what I'm talking about.  Any tool can be misused, and that
is a misuse of this one - nor is someone who engages in that sort of
design likely to be deterred by having to solder and re-solder.

I'm talking about actual experimental stuff, of the "let's see what
interesting tricks I can make this chip do" sort.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 12 23:57:51 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 00:57:51 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111213032002.GE15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <A768FAB0-6EE1-4856-B6A1-060CEB48A433@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCF=m3km69JCVAos054t8T-LNOqqr03QO42R3WaywJfMFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213032002.GE15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EE6E95F.4000007@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 10:20 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>> But OS X? If it's in a file it's probably XML but the chances are it's
>> in netinfo somewhere...
>
> *urrrggg* netinfo? That ... thing _still_ hasn't died? I remember
> people cursing it quite colorfully during the NextStep days ...

   Nono, don't worry, it got purged from OS X as of 10.5.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 00:40:40 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 01:40:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
 <3B37E806-A96B-4C93-8545-28D8128B8256@gmail.com>
 <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112130640.BAA02933@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Yeah, same signal, less propagation loss over coax.
> The RF?  More propagation loss, not less.

Well, I didn't write that, but, as I read it, "less" there is the sense
which could just as well be written "minus".

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 13 00:51:09 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 22:51:09 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>,
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6F5DD.30003@brouhaha.com>

Fred Cisin wrote:
>  Who did Gary Kildall lift it from?

Chuck Guzis wrote:
 > ISIS :)

Gary wrote ISIS, so if he "lifted" it from somewhere, it's further back 
than that.



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 01:00:55 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 02:00:55 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
 <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE6F827.7080403@neurotica.com>

On 12/12/2011 11:47 PM, David Riley wrote:
>> A habit I've had since childhood is not going to bed without
>> having learned at least one new thing every day.  Most of the time
>> the item learned  has nothing to do with electronics or computers.
>>
>> In the entire history of the human race, it's never been easier.
>
> Or more dangerous; I've lost days on Wikipedia when I was meant to be
> getting contractually obligated things done. On the bright side, I
> now know all about the history of hand grenades and I know exactly
> how a Hammond organ works.  Both of these are worth knowing, but I
> would rather have come upon them at a more opportune time. :-)

   Ohhhh yes, I feel your pain. :-(

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com  Mon Dec 12 03:55:29 2011
From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 10:55:29 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <FBCF5766B83446648FEBD2D9D310C5D0@Pc12>

hello thanks for your precisions,I am also doing the same
a few ideas:for the dc inverter what not use icl7660 ,they can give 
you -12v,
you can get free samples from Maxim,just register on their site,I frequently 
use those circuits for gaasfet lnas (I am a ham also)
for odt the problem is that those processors do not have odt in microcrode
(contrary of dec's processors),so we will have to make our own program,I
think of using the console of the 11/34 that is here:
http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/
you will find the source,it can be modified to fill the need of the russian 
processors ,that need the psw at adress of start+2,and recompiled.
but a problem is if we use dec 's program we must comply to dec's standards 
that reques that the processor has a dl11 (or dlv11)compatible board.
as console,not only a uart.
Is the soviet serie there are circuits that make this they are the
KR1801VM1-35 and the KR1801VM1-65
you can find examples of its use here:
http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/DVK/docs/
file
MicroEVM_Book_2.djvu
can you say me where you found the file that you use for your eproms?what 
computer does it come from:bk,dvk,uknc??
and where are you,maybe we are not too far??
best regards
good luck alain nierveze

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2011 8:10 PM
Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?


> Yes, I've found this out in the meantime by struggeling trough some 
> russian
> docs, that from the K1806VM2 for example.
> I've plugged the VM2 in such a white testboard where you can build small
> electronics simply by putting wires in holes. (Don't know how they are
> called in english, sorry).
> I've build this non adress register from 7403s, in the russian MC1201.02
> CPU is such a peace of schematic, pulling A14 and A15 Low to build the
> start vector and additionally A0, A1 and A2 configurable trough switches.
> There is an additional command for this processor that does this non 
> adress
> request too (0020 octal if i remember correctly), placing the complete 
> bits
> in R0. Otherways the switches would make no sense. I think the ODT 
> startupo
> Code in The K1801RE2-055 is looking for those bits and is configuring the
> startup procedure accordingly (ODT or boot).
>
> I'm trying to build an simple SBC with that processor, using an universal
> card and CUL wire to connect the peaces. Im using two 28C64 as ROM,
> programmend with the contents of the RE2-055 support chip that I've found
> somwhere in the russian web. Currently I must make an Voltage Converter 
> for
> -12V, since the old Tzschech MHB1012 Uarts that I want to use as SLUs 
> wants
> that (compatible to AY-5-1013 and thats the same as the CDP6004, but the
> CDP does'nt need the -12V, has a free Pin on this place)
> RAM will consist of four peaces of W24C257 Cache RAMs. The ODT wants a
> kilobyte at least in the hidden system memory area where the RE2-055
> resides too..
>
> I want to get the ODT working at first, later some IDE interface, lets
> see...
>
> BTW: The K1801VM2 is documented with 10Mhz Clock, which in real world
> is 5Mhz CLCO on the processor. The Processor divides that by two.
> The K1806VM2 is CMOS and has a maximum clock speed of 5Mhz which would 
> work
> out to 2,5Mhz real clock.
>
> Kind Regards,
>
> Holm
>
>
> nierveze wrote:
>
>> hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather
>> sophisticated,here here is what I have found:
>> first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
>> *at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
>> *when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts
>> immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
>> *DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors 
>> clears
>> the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if this 
>> period
>> internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
>> *ACLO should be low for 70 ms
>> *after there arre differences in the processors:
>> *the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by
>> SEL1),the lsb of
>> the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is
>> filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be
>> physically in a small rom,
>> a register bank ,or in support circuit???
>> *for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a 
>> 74ls
>> 244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the T11),selected
>> by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the starting address in
>> rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2
>> Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
>> poor as hours:-)))
>> I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei Vakulenko
>> (vak.ru,page of projects)
>> You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those
>> microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
>> I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
>> of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not 
>> have
>> .
>> But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
>> startup procedure.
>> Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010
>> BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
>> Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
>> Thanks best regards
>> Alin Nierveze
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
>> Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
>> address?
>>
>>
>> >HI Devin,
>> >
>> >In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU 
>> >on
>> >a testboard and applied power and clock.
>> >Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads to
>> >read on those sites.
>> >
>> >Thanks,
>> >
>> >Holm
>> >
>> >Devin Monnens wrote:
>> >
>> >>Holm,
>> >>
>> >>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
>> >>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but provided
>> >>these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
>> >>
>> >>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
>> >>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
>> >>here or maybe here:
>> >>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
>> >>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
>> >>
>> >>-Devin Monnens
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> ------------------------------
>> >>>
>> >>> Message: 14
>> >>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
>> >>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
>> >>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>> >>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
>> >>> address?
>> >>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
>> >>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems 
>> >>> to
>> >>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
>> >>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
>> >>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
>> >>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the 
>> >>> start
>> >>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
>> >>> Can anyone please confirm this?
>> >>>
>> >>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
>> >>>
>> >>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o special
>> >>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
>> >>>
>> >>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
>> >>>
>> >>> Holm
>> >>> --
>> >>>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>> >>>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>> >>>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>-- 
>> >>Devin Monnens
>> >>www.deserthat.com
>> >>
>> >>The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>> >
>> >-- 
>> >     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>> >    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>> > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>> >
>
> -- 
>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> 



From jonas at otter.se  Mon Dec 12 04:13:04 2011
From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:13:04 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o
 =?UTF-8?Q?address=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.529.1323673648.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.529.1323673648.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <0a0bc296ede0818f8eec1950b24dc04b@otter.se>

>> > In my experience, "solderless breadboard" is the usual term, at 
>> least
>> > if you're talking about the things I suspect you are.  
>> Occasionally a
>> > brand name gets used to refer to them.
>>
>> That's what I've always heard them called.  I know they're generally
>> considered terrible, but I've had lots of luck with them for 
>> low-speed
>> projects (especially power supplies for tube amps; I've got one 
>> that's
>> covered with capacitor juice from various electrolytics exploding 
>> and
>> has some melted-out holes resulting from diodes installed backwards 
>> but
>> still manages to work just fine).
>
> They're probaly fine if used within their limitations. That is that 
> stray
> capacitance doesn't matter too much (and be warned it can matter even
> when the system appears to be low-speed) and if the odd poor 
> connection
> won't cause too many problems.
>
> That said, I don't think they save much tiem. The time taken to form
> component leads to fit into one of these breadboards, or to strip a 
> piece
> of isulated wire to go in, is not much less than soldering the 
> components
> to stripboard (assuming your iron is already hot). And doing the 
> latter
> will at least eliminate poor conenctions.
>
> -tony

 Around 1980-1981 I was working for Volvo Cars. At one time I was given 
 the task of evaluating the optimum location for a knock sensor. I had an 
 engine fitted with a number of knock sensors in various locations on a 
 dynamometer test bench, and a device connected to the ignition which 
 allowed me to advance the ignition from TDC in increments of a few 
 degrees. This thing was provided as an official test device from a large 
 US manufacturer, I have forgotten which one - RCA? GE? GM? It was built 
 with CMOS 4000-series ICs IIRC, and constructed on - solderless 
 plugboard... Changing the amount of ignition advance was done by moving 
 a wire between different holes in the plugboard.

 Using this kind of thing in an engine test cell, with an engine running 
 under heavy load close by and me standing next to it, struck me as 
 rather shaky to say the least. Especially as a bad connection, or 
 plugging the wire in the wrong hole, could make the engine produce 
 "interesting" noises. Had something serious happened to the engine there 
 might well have suddenly been large parts of metal flying around and 
 plenty of hot oil and water spraying about. It did actually work OK 
 though.

 /Jonas


From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com  Mon Dec 12 08:00:12 2011
From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 15:00:12 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <7F8BB8859E0E4DD49B224B226A4F06F6@Pc12>
 <20111212072544.GG110@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <D469E0F463F84FE299125131961B3311@Pc12>

hello,yes you are right the processors are different,
I have both of them
here I found the source listing for odt for bk/dvk
the differences are starting address and the fact that the bk  has a video
integrated not a terminal console
http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4113
it will be easier to understand and modify in case of need
alain
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:25 AM
Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?


> Hmm, The BK0010 is using an K1801VM1 CPU that don't use this way of
> adressless read to start up. This is only on the K1801VM2 and the K1806VM2
> so far as I know...
> I think the VM1 is doing the startup using the SEL1 Line, but I haven't
> read that much about this processor.
> But all of them have no ODT microcode, but an external ROM with the ODT
> Debugger in them. For the VM2 the code is in the K1801RE2 on the DBK
> Machines.
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>
> nierveze wrote:
>
>> confimation
>> I have just examined on a real BK0010 using Mirage the debugger
>> the msbyte of the address 177716 is always 100 whatever you do (as I can
>> see),the lsbyte varies but not the msbyte ,so the principle that the
>> starting address of the processor is made od the msbyte of address
>> 177716+000 for lsbyte.100+000 gives an adress of 100000,type g100000 in 
>> the
>> debugger makes a good clean start of the machine.I think it is a register
>> in the support circuit k1801BM1-014
>> best regards
>> a.n
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "nierveze" <nierveze at radio-astronomie.com>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:26 AM
>> Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
>> address?
>>
>>
>> >hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather
>> >sophisticated,here here is what I have found:
>> >first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
>> >*at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
>> >*when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts
>> >immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
>> >*DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors
>> >clears the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if
>> >this period internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
>> >*ACLO should be low for 70 ms
>> >*after there arre differences in the processors:
>> >*the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by
>> >SEL1),the lsb of
>> >the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is
>> >filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be
>> >physically in a small rom,
>> >a register bank ,or in support circuit???
>> >*for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a
>> >74ls 244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the
>> >T11),selected by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the 
>> >starting
>> >address in rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2
>> >Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
>> >poor as hours:-)))
>> >I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei 
>> >Vakulenko
>> >(vak.ru,page of projects)
>> >You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those
>> >microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
>> >I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
>> >of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not
>> >have .
>> >But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
>> >startup procedure.
>> >Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010
>> >BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
>> >Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
>> >Thanks best regards
>> >Alin Nierveze
>> >
>> >----- Original Message ----- 
>> >From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
>> >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>> ><cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> >Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
>> >Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
>> >address?
>> >
>> >
>> >>HI Devin,
>> >>
>> >>In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU 
>> >>on
>> >>a testboard and applied power and clock.
>> >>Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads 
>> >>to
>> >>read on those sites.
>> >>
>> >>Thanks,
>> >>
>> >>Holm
>> >>
>> >>Devin Monnens wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>Holm,
>> >>>
>> >>>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
>> >>>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but 
>> >>>provided
>> >>>these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
>> >>>
>> >>>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
>> >>>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
>> >>>here or maybe here:
>> >>>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
>> >>>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
>> >>>
>> >>>-Devin Monnens
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>> ------------------------------
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Message: 14
>> >>>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
>> >>>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
>> >>>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
>> >>>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
>> >>>> address?
>> >>>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
>> >>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
>> >>>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems
>> >>>> to
>> >>>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
>> >>>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
>> >>>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
>> >>>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the
>> >>>> start
>> >>>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
>> >>>> Can anyone please confirm this?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o 
>> >>>> special
>> >>>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Holm
>> >>>> --
>> >>>>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>> >>>>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>> >>>>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>-- 
>> >>>Devin Monnens
>> >>>www.deserthat.com
>> >>>
>> >>>The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
>> >>
>> >>-- 
>> >>     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>> >>    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>> >> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
>> >>
>> >
>
> -- 
>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> 



From mark.kahrs at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 10:57:11 2011
From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 11:57:11 -0500
Subject: HP 1000 boards on epay (I think)
Message-ID: <CAEokdfctgZNipxAHKkxSM0Mi04S1=zOgAkH32FjwMCz+6jq+Fg@mail.gmail.com>

These are not listed as such, so I'm taking a guess:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-13197-60001-1K-WCS-Board-Assembly-/160697064802
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-12897-60004-DCPC-Board-Assembly-/160697070776
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-12892-60003-Memory-Protector-Board-Assembly-/160697077430
http://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-Agilent-02102-60001-Memory-Controller-board-Assembly-/160697092244


From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 12 22:05:07 2011
From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis)
Date: Mon, 12 Dec 2011 21:05:07 -0700
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAOPi=7AH7Fp9yF_7MNR2wwh_wXE523kQu0P9jkkzxaEQbayodg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> > It's even more general than that.  Many folks have fallen into the
> > Microsoft (FAT) limitation that a file is [char]+.[char][char][char]
> > format for a file name.
>
> char[char][char][char][char][char][char][char](.)[char][char][char]
>
> There MUST be at least one character at the beginning of the filename. The
> remaining 7 positions, and the three of the "extension" are padded out
> with spaces  if not used, and no non-space character can FOLLOW a space in
> either field ("undefined" behavior results from embedded spaces (F 3.C)),
> although the command line parser will treat any spaces in the command
> line as delimiters. (It will assume that FILENAM .C or F 3.C are each two
> items, not single names.)
>
> Microsoft (Patterson) lifted THAT directly from CP/M.
>
>
> Who did Gary Kildall lift it from?
>
>
> I'm reminded of an old trick from the days of DOS 3.2... keep
people from tampering with a file by embedding an 0xFF character in the
name... perfectly legal name, but appears in a DIR listing as a space.

One of those security-through-obscurity things.


From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 05:57:18 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:57:18 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111212152935.G64360@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201112131157.pBDBvM6i024195@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com>

>From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Dec 13 11:50:12 2011

> Thanks for trimming
> BUT, could use a LITTLE context.  WHICH "solution" is gruesome?

I thought it was you since my newsreader preserves the threading, but I see
my phone I posted from doesn't include an In-Reply-To: header or perhaps it
was filtered somewhere. I will try not to trim from my phone any more.

> To summarize, . . .
> Coco has RF channel 3 output, with almost-NTSC available with trivial mods.
> You need anything that can display composite almost-NTSC, OR anything
> that can tune analog channel 3 (USA spec) foloowed by whatever can
> display what you get.  A "TV card" is a TV tuner - you just need one that
> can do analog channel 3.  OR the tuner of a VCR OR the tuner of a DVD
> recorder OR some cable boxes OR some closed caption external boxes. OR
> any TV that has analog input - look at Digital Prism 7" for about $50 

Thank you.

I don't have any TV or video gear. I want to be able to display this on a
monitor and the TV card id sounds like it would be ok. I rememberd the COCO
had RF output and an adapter to go right onto the antenna terminals of a
TV. I just did not know since I don't have the TV card where I can get to
it right now, whether there was any obvious way to connect a signal, or if
those cards were designed with built-in antennas and no jacks (as I believe
Cameron said the cheap ones have no jacks). 









From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 06:04:15 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:04:15 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>

>>
>> I have an old COCO II somewhere but I don't have a television. What
>> are you guys who have similar old systems doing for a display? Is there
>

Tony said:

>I normally pick of the compostie signal before the RF modulator (if there
>isn't a composite video ouptu socket anyway, there isn't on the CoCo II,
>there is on the 3) and feed it to a composite-input CRT-based monitor.

I've been away from my tools too long (don't ask) and I wasn't thinking of
doing any surgery on the COCO since it's pristine. The whole deal is I
don't have a TV, don't have a need for it or really any room for one, but I
do have plenty of monitors. If I can't get a TV card to work or anything
else becomes an issue I'll ask again, when I actually have everything in
front of me so I can ask quasi intelligently instead of based on what I
remember from the 1980s sometime which was when I bought it and put it back
in the box after not using it much.

>> a device to convert the TV out from those computers to D-Sub or dare to

> at least over here, most moder n TVs (inlducing LCD and plasma ones) have
> analogue TV tuner/demodulation circuitry (as well as digital) which seems
> ot work with old home compoters. And composite (and manye analogue RGB)
> inputs on RCA phono or SCART socketxs.

Yeah but I don't have a TV!

>> dream, DVI?  What do you call such a conv erter? Thanks.

> I beleive composite to HDMI converters esixt (may work with DVI too, I
> can't see why they'd need the decryption key from the TV set). Over here
> they are often called 'SCART to HDMI converters', since the composite
> input is on a SCART socket. Of course sucvh things only work if oyu have
> a compostie video output from your home computer, not just the an RF
> output.

I think somebody said the COCO doesn't have composite output.

>> Not cheap, though (getting on for $100). an old CRT monitor is cheaper
>> and probalbly more repairable if you have the space for it. 

Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can
scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.
Was hoping to avoid the CRT death rays though since I did enough of that
for decades. The newer flat screens seem much healthier.

Thank you and everyone. I guess we can let this thread die for now.


From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 06:06:56 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:06:56 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112131207.pBDC70w1025081@imr-da01.mx.aol.com>

>From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Dec 13 11:50:25 2011

>> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
>> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
>> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
>> connections?
>
>   Indeed, those are the SAME signals!  Think about it. :)

Hello Dave!

Well yeah I knew that much! Not having the card in front of me, I just
didn't know whether they used a built in antenna and I would have no way to
connect to it or whether they have actual input jacks to make life easy. I
think Cameron said the cheap ones don't have jacks. I'll have to check my
bins when I can get to them and see what I actually have.



From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 06:08:11 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:08:11 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <CA+A6M=j9=mJVaZfJkFJ5PMWnEEWRu6LGWo03t5Uc4VDAr8_8Zg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112131208.pBDC8FGO000944@imr-db03.mx.aol.com>

>From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 11:52:15 2011

> here are some composite~hdmi and composite~dvi converters
>
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=composite+dvi
> http://www.monoprice.com/products/search.asp?keyword=composite+hdmi

Thank you.



From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 06:11:09 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (vintagecoder at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:11:09 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <3F577317-7719-4004-AC5B-BB57D3900381@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201112131211.pBDCBDVf028516@imr-da01.mx.aol.com>

>From fraveydank at gmail.com Tue Dec 13 12:09:25 2011

>> I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
>> would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
>> have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
>> connections?

> Often enough, yes.  You just need to look for the appropriate ports; some
> of the REALLY cheap ones only have a tuner and nothing else.  I really
> liked the AVI TV Wonder that I have (CX2388x-based, red PCB); it had a
> little purple breakout box with the composite, S-Video and audio
> connections so that everything else could fit on the card bracket. 

Oh, it was David who gave this helpful info, I wrongly attributed to
Cameron. Thanks to everyone for the help and info.



From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 06:24:45 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 07:24:45 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>

Looking for NeXT mono cables (DB19 -> DB19 ) and Y cables (13W3 ->
13W3 and DB-19) as well as NeXT Mice (broken or working).

Anyone got any for sale or swap?

-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From blkline at attglobal.net  Tue Dec 13 07:34:49 2011
From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:34:49 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
 <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE75479.2050104@attglobal.net>

On 12/12/2011 11:47 PM, David Riley wrote:
> Or more dangerous; I've lost days on Wikipedia when I was meant to be
> getting contractually obligated things done. On the bright side, I
> now know all about the history of hand grenades and I know exactly
> how a Hammond organ works.  Both of these are worth knowing, but I
> would rather have come upon them at a more opportune time. :-)

But you know -- I had these same issues when doing research in a library
and going through the encyclopedia.   It's just so much easier to have
"lost time" episodes now that everything is at your fingertips; literally!

Barry


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 08:29:48 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:29:48 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE75479.2050104@attglobal.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
 <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
 <4EE75479.2050104@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <402204F2-D94C-482F-92D6-E06502D3FDB4@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 8:34 AM, Barry L. Kline wrote:

> On 12/12/2011 11:47 PM, David Riley wrote:
>> Or more dangerous; I've lost days on Wikipedia when I was meant to be
>> getting contractually obligated things done. On the bright side, I
>> now know all about the history of hand grenades and I know exactly
>> how a Hammond organ works.  Both of these are worth knowing, but I
>> would rather have come upon them at a more opportune time. :-)
> 
> But you know -- I had these same issues when doing research in a library
> and going through the encyclopedia.   It's just so much easier to have
> "lost time" episodes now that everything is at your fingertips; literally!

Related: http://xkcd.com/214/

I think the worst is the combination of Wikipedia with tabbed browsers.  It makes it way too easy to just push the "ooh, that looks interesting" topic onto the stack instead of just following it; by the time an hour is through, I can accumulate 20 tabs.

- Dave


From jfoust at threedee.com  Tue Dec 13 08:11:28 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:11:28 -0600
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>

At 06:04 AM 12/13/2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
>Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can
>scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.


Oh, no, this thread has so much miscommunication in it, we have to keep
it going.

I assume you're not in the USA?  So when you buy the average LCD TV
in Europe, does it not include the same threaded "F" connector for
an RF input, that would be able to tune this "channel 3" (61.25 MHz)?

- John



From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 08:32:10 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:32:10 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>

I may have more mice than I need. I'll check my stash tonight. What length
DB19 do you need? I may have a surplus of the slab cables as well (only a
foot long)

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> Looking for NeXT mono cables (DB19 -> DB19 ) and Y cables (13W3 ->
> 13W3 and DB-19) as well as NeXT Mice (broken or working).
>
> Anyone got any for sale or swap?
>
> --
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 08:34:19 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:34:19 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
 <3B37E806-A96B-4C93-8545-28D8128B8256@gmail.com>
 <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <EB459F11-AEF4-4393-BE91-BB59BEAE0B93@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 10:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/12/2011 06:44 PM, David Riley wrote:
>> Oh, I realized he meant the modulated outputs from a
>> computer/console.  Yeah, same signal, less propagation loss over
>> coax.
> 
>  The RF?  More propagation loss, not less.

Really? Vs. over the air over any appreciable distance?  Seems unlikely to me, but I'm not really an RF guy.

>> And it's really just the composite video signal modulated by a
>> carrier;
> 
>  Carrier modulated by the composite video signal, actually. (sorry)

Haha, yes, the difference is important.  I knew that, but it came out backwards.


- Dave





From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 08:38:04 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:38:04 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
References: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <3BA28891-4CBC-4C34-915D-F9C133D6307F@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 7:04 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:

>>> Not cheap, though (getting on for $100). an old CRT monitor is cheaper
>>> and probalbly more repairable if you have the space for it. 
> 
> Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can
> scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.
> Was hoping to avoid the CRT death rays though since I did enough of that
> for decades. The newer flat screens seem much healthier.

Not to resuscitate the thread unnecessarily, but you do still need something to take the composite video (modulated by an RF carrier or not) and turn it into RGB + sync for the monitor (not the simplest of processes, but as mentioned, there are quite a few devices to do so).  Not sure if that's what you meant or not.

- Dave




From jon at jonworld.com  Tue Dec 13 08:38:15 2011
From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:38:15 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <402204F2-D94C-482F-92D6-E06502D3FDB4@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
 <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
 <4EE75479.2050104@attglobal.net>
 <402204F2-D94C-482F-92D6-E06502D3FDB4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEOZr+0mgY0i3Z2+OhYkhAxBgm-gxHFSfDNjf9KLjUzNm5zvvg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:29 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>> But you know -- I had these same issues when doing research in a library
>> and going through the encyclopedia. ? It's just so much easier to have
>> "lost time" episodes now that everything is at your fingertips; literally!
>
> Related: http://xkcd.com/214/
>
> I think the worst is the combination of Wikipedia with tabbed browsers. ?It makes it way too easy to just push the "ooh, that looks interesting" topic onto the stack instead of just following it; by the time an hour is through, I can accumulate 20 tabs.

I also suffer from a similar affliction regarding youtube. Oh, one
pretty video. Then there is the related videos scroll that pops up.
Oh, that looks interesting. And the next one. And the next one. And
each new video displays a new "related" tab showing more videos.



From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 08:42:51 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:42:51 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
Message-ID: <1743613386-1323787372-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1644288792-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

I don't know, I don't have a TV. 

------Original Message------
From: John Foust
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
Sent: 13 Dec 2011 14:11

At 06:04 AM 12/13/2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
>Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can
>scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.


Oh, no, this thread has so much miscommunication in it, we have to keep
it going.

I assume you're not in the USA?  So when you buy the average LCD TV
in Europe, does it not include the same threaded "F" connector for
an RF input, that would be able to tune this "channel 3" (61.25 MHz)?

- John




From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 08:51:04 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:51:04 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4_bfwyzHwtsuzjY7jhv4XXwkNGr6_w31t=7=qQLdFN2Q@mail.gmail.com>

Length is not too important, more important is being able to use the
hardware. ;)

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:32 AM, Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> I may have more mice than I need. I'll check my stash tonight. What length
> DB19 do you need? I may have a surplus of the slab cables as well (only a
> foot long)
>
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 7:24 AM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Looking for NeXT mono cables (DB19 -> DB19 ) and Y cables (13W3 ->
>> 13W3 and DB-19) as well as NeXT Mice (broken or working).
>>
>> Anyone got any for sale or swap?
>>
>> --
>> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
>> KB3HAG
>>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 08:52:50 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:52:50 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <0a0bc296ede0818f8eec1950b24dc04b@otter.se>
References: <mailman.529.1323673648.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <0a0bc296ede0818f8eec1950b24dc04b@otter.se>
Message-ID: <95D1ACBE-B155-41E6-B8F7-7A7A47490859@gmail.com>

On Dec 12, 2011, at 5:13 AM, jonas at otter.se wrote:

> Around 1980-1981 I was working for Volvo Cars. At one time I was given the task of evaluating the optimum location for a knock sensor. I had an engine fitted with a number of knock sensors in various locations on a dynamometer test bench, and a device connected to the ignition which allowed me to advance the ignition from TDC in increments of a few degrees. This thing was provided as an official test device from a large US manufacturer, I have forgotten which one - RCA? GE? GM? It was built with CMOS 4000-series ICs IIRC, and constructed on - solderless plugboard... Changing the amount of ignition advance was done by moving a wire between different holes in the plugboard.
> 
> Using this kind of thing in an engine test cell, with an engine running under heavy load close by and me standing next to it, struck me as rather shaky to say the least. Especially as a bad connection, or plugging the wire in the wrong hole, could make the engine produce "interesting" noises. Had something serious happened to the engine there might well have suddenly been large parts of metal flying around and plenty of hot oil and water spraying about. It did actually work OK though.

Oh lord, I can't imagine.  When we do automotive boards at work, we have to glue down the large power supply caps for vibration safety.  I can't imagine running a plugboard in a critical part, much less near the main source of vibration.

- Dave





From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 08:58:46 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:58:46 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <3BA28891-4CBC-4C34-915D-F9C133D6307F@gmail.com>
References: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <3BA28891-4CBC-4C34-915D-F9C133D6307F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <769056615-1323788327-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120292069-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

I understood from Tony a CRT monitor should just work. I was asking him if I understood him correctly. From your post, it seems I didn't! 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:38:04 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

On Dec 13, 2011, at 7:04 AM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:

>>> Not cheap, though (getting on for $100). an old CRT monitor is cheaper
>>> and probalbly more repairable if you have the space for it. 
> 
> Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can
> scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.
> Was hoping to avoid the CRT death rays though since I did enough of that
> for decades. The newer flat screens seem much healthier.

Not to resuscitate the thread unnecessarily, but you do still need something to take the composite video (modulated by an RF carrier or not) and turn it into RGB + sync for the monitor (not the simplest of processes, but as mentioned, there are quite a few devices to do so).  Not sure if that's what you meant or not.

- Dave





From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 09:28:55 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:28:55 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh4_bfwyzHwtsuzjY7jhv4XXwkNGr6_w31t=7=qQLdFN2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4_bfwyzHwtsuzjY7jhv4XXwkNGr6_w31t=7=qQLdFN2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGVROrP3iDHnDQ3XfOEZisDQ_6NMiZ-0RpYgVYZ20shwVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> Length is not too important, more important is being able to use the
> hardware. ;)
>

Length is important if you are trying to connect a monitor to a cube and
you've only got 12 inches of cord - it doesn't work so well :)


From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 10:02:31 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:02:31 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGVROrP3iDHnDQ3XfOEZisDQ_6NMiZ-0RpYgVYZ20shwVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4_bfwyzHwtsuzjY7jhv4XXwkNGr6_w31t=7=qQLdFN2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGVROrP3iDHnDQ3XfOEZisDQ_6NMiZ-0RpYgVYZ20shwVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh70nVV6mYPp=zd=t8_3jWawscdnku8gNt0CR31utsy2Rg@mail.gmail.com>

The cube can be beside the monitor, can it not? ;)

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 10:28 AM, Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Length is not too important, more important is being able to use the
>> hardware. ;)
>>
>
> Length is important if you are trying to connect a monitor to a cube and
> you've only got 12 inches of cord - it doesn't work so well :)



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 10:07:25 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:07:25 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <769056615-1323788327-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120292069-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
References: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <3BA28891-4CBC-4C34-915D-F9C133D6307F@gmail.com>
 <769056615-1323788327-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120292069-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
Message-ID: <BA0D9856-B101-4CDB-BC26-91A525DB506F@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> I understood from Tony a CRT monitor should just work. I was asking him if I understood him correctly. From your post, it seems I didn't! 

I think he probably meant once you'd converted it from RF/composite, it would work.  A composite signal is a mashed-up luma/chroma (brightness/color) signal, which is in turn a mashed-up YPbPr (brightness/difference from blue/difference from red) signal.  Once you get back to YPbPr, you need to do a transform to turn that into RGB values, which is what a CRT monitor will understand.  You also need to separate out the vertical and horizontal sync signals, because a CRT expects to get them separately (well, most do; there are monitors which expect it to be superimposed on the green signal).

It's a non-trivial job to turn a composite signal into RGB, which is what a CRT (or a DVI monitor, which expects the same thing but digitally) wants to see.  A TV card will do that for you and DMA the RGB data straight into your computer's RAM, or you can get a converter box that does it all and blasts it out to VGA or HDMI (which should convert to HDMI through a very cheap passive adaptor, since HDMI is inter-compatible with DVI).  Either way, there's going to need to be something in between.

I'm also not familiar with the CoCo line; did they ever make a PAL version?  If not, it wouldn't be useful to you to have a TV (well, not a UK TV, anyway) because it wouldn't work.  Most TV cards (especially if you're not using the god-awful manufacturer's provided software) will tune to NTSC, PAL and SECAM and successfully decode all three (though SECAM is left out often enough).  You'll want to make sure you get a card that can tune to US frequencies, though; the tuners are often a bolt-on thing which can vary by manufacturer.

I can highly recommend the ATI Tv Wonder Pro (http://www.amazon.com/ATI-Technologies-Wonder-PCI-NTSC-100-703138/dp/B0000C0COH; it may be available in your flavor of Amazon for a similar price).  This particular one tunes NTSC, so it will pick up an NTSC CoCo just fine.  From my recollection, only the tuner is restricted to NTSC (the frequency bands tend to be the issue there), so you should be able to take in PAL/SECAM input sources on the other input connector if you should ever need to do so.

- Dave




From vintagecoder at aol.com  Tue Dec 13 10:15:28 2011
From: vintagecoder at aol.com (Vintage Coder)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:15:28 +0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <BA0D9856-B101-4CDB-BC26-91A525DB506F@gmail.com>
References: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <3BA28891-4CBC-4C34-915D-F9C133D6307F@gmail.com>
 <769056615-1323788327-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-120292069-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>
 <BA0D9856-B101-4CDB-BC26-91A525DB506F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <459269888-1323792929-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1778569465-@b15.c1.bise3.blackberry>

Thanks a lot. I can't answer your question on PAL on the COCO II since mine is in storage. Appreciate all the good info, I'll ask again when I have the equipment handy. 

-----Original Message-----
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:07:25 
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
 <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

On Dec 13, 2011, at 9:58 AM, Vintage Coder wrote:

> I understood from Tony a CRT monitor should just work. I was asking him if I understood him correctly. From your post, it seems I didn't! 

I think he probably meant once you'd converted it from RF/composite, it would work.  A composite signal is a mashed-up luma/chroma (brightness/color) signal, which is in turn a mashed-up YPbPr (brightness/difference from blue/difference from red) signal.  Once you get back to YPbPr, you need to do a transform to turn that into RGB values, which is what a CRT monitor will understand.  You also need to separate out the vertical and horizontal sync signals, because a CRT expects to get them separately (well, most do; there are monitors which expect it to be superimposed on the green signal).

It's a non-trivial job to turn a composite signal into RGB, which is what a CRT (or a DVI monitor, which expects the same thing but digitally) wants to see.  A TV card will do that for you and DMA the RGB data straight into your computer's RAM, or you can get a converter box that does it all and blasts it out to VGA or HDMI (which should convert to HDMI through a very cheap passive adaptor, since HDMI is inter-compatible with DVI).  Either way, there's going to need to be something in between.

I'm also not familiar with the CoCo line; did they ever make a PAL version?  If not, it wouldn't be useful to you to have a TV (well, not a UK TV, anyway) because it wouldn't work.  Most TV cards (especially if you're not using the god-awful manufacturer's provided software) will tune to NTSC, PAL and SECAM and successfully decode all three (though SECAM is left out often enough).  You'll want to make sure you get a card that can tune to US frequencies, though; the tuners are often a bolt-on thing which can vary by manufacturer.

I can highly recommend the ATI Tv Wonder Pro (http://www.amazon.com/ATI-Technologies-Wonder-PCI-NTSC-100-703138/dp/B0000C0COH; it may be available in your flavor of Amazon for a similar price).  This particular one tunes NTSC, so it will pick up an NTSC CoCo just fine.  From my recollection, only the tuner is restricted to NTSC (the frequency bands tend to be the issue there), so you should be able to take in PAL/SECAM input sources on the other input connector if you should ever need to do so.

- Dave





From alanp at snowmoose.com  Tue Dec 13 10:23:52 2011
From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 08:23:52 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac,
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <mailman.553.1323762027.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.553.1323762027.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EE77C18.5000604@snowmoose.com>

On 12/12/11 11:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> Microsoft (Patterson) lifted THAT directly from CP/M.
It is Paterson, not Patterson.

alan



From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 10:26:08 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:26:08 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh70nVV6mYPp=zd=t8_3jWawscdnku8gNt0CR31utsy2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4_bfwyzHwtsuzjY7jhv4XXwkNGr6_w31t=7=qQLdFN2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGVROrP3iDHnDQ3XfOEZisDQ_6NMiZ-0RpYgVYZ20shwVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh70nVV6mYPp=zd=t8_3jWawscdnku8gNt0CR31utsy2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGWiKXmQFa6EFB=h7yO+vAOC4E92o5XjbKB99nasaJVitg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> The cube can be beside the monitor, can it not? ;)
>


Not with the short slab cables - you can *just barely* have the monitor on
top of the cube - if you can manage to prop it up with something - it's
still precarious. They are really very short cables, designed to fit
precisely between the monitor port on the slab to a monitor sitting on top
of it.


From blkline at attglobal.net  Tue Dec 13 10:35:13 2011
From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:35:13 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <402204F2-D94C-482F-92D6-E06502D3FDB4@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> <4EE6260E.23204.15E7D57@cclist.sydex.com>
 <D2C71D59-A2F3-41E3-A2A5-DDF7323347D5@gmail.com>
 <4EE75479.2050104@attglobal.net>
 <402204F2-D94C-482F-92D6-E06502D3FDB4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE77EC1.4020006@attglobal.net>

On 12/13/2011 09:29 AM, David Riley wrote:
> Related: http://xkcd.com/214/

<me>Wipes coffee from computer screen</me>

I'm starting to worry that the artist must have some malware monitoring
my wikipedia habits.

Barry



From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 10:58:22 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:58:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGWiKXmQFa6EFB=h7yO+vAOC4E92o5XjbKB99nasaJVitg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAH5WRh79QfM64sttxr-=0w+4tj2TXd3g1hbXE3x0hqb-WtpHJg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGUpm2TmDbVzxdhueyu-m+g05GSFcE_Jan_n=g4Ot=P2cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh4_bfwyzHwtsuzjY7jhv4XXwkNGr6_w31t=7=qQLdFN2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGVROrP3iDHnDQ3XfOEZisDQ_6NMiZ-0RpYgVYZ20shwVw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh70nVV6mYPp=zd=t8_3jWawscdnku8gNt0CR31utsy2Rg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGWiKXmQFa6EFB=h7yO+vAOC4E92o5XjbKB99nasaJVitg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh6Z271ZZB1=mAFKPzNssB01CH7umZ=7Dkpdi9AGb4=kNw@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, wel, I have mono slabs too, so that works, as well. ;) Right now
i'm stuck with a pile of gear, a ton of keyboards, ton of montiors,
but only two soundboxes and y cables, and no mono cables :(

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:26 AM, Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 11:02 AM, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> The cube can be beside the monitor, can it not? ;)
>>
>
>
> Not with the short slab cables - you can *just barely* have the monitor on
> top of the cube - if you can manage to prop it up with something - it's
> still precarious. They are really very short cables, designed to fit
> precisely between the monitor port on the slab to a monitor sitting on top
> of it.



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Dec 13 11:18:18 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:18:18 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:12:53 +0100
Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:

> > Well. Thats why I say: Linux evolved from a free Unix clone for Unix
> > lovers into a bad Windows surrogate for M$ haters. ;-)
> Ah, I disagree. One certainly _can_ run whatever crap Ubuntu decides to
> call the default graphics interface today, but one doesn't _have_ to.
Sure, you can replace GNOME / KDE with twm...
But that is not what I am talking about. It's the way Linux even feels
from the command line. All too often shell scripts start with #!/bin/sh
where #!/bin/bash would fit better... Mysterious "configuration
wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files, poor
man-pages, aliases like rm='rm -i' in the default .profile, locked out
root-accounts, so that you can't log into the machine even on the text
console to fix a broken X11 or NIS, no real single user mode, ^C not
working at boot time, ...
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 13 11:44:41 2011
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:44:41 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh6Z271ZZB1=mAFKPzNssB01CH7umZ=7Dkpdi9AGb4=kNw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 12/13/11, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:

> Ah, wel, I have mono slabs too, so
> that works, as well. ;) Right now
> i'm stuck with a pile of gear, a ton of keyboards, ton of
> montiors,
> but only two soundboxes and y cables, and no mono cables
> :(

At least if you have a short 19 pin cable, you can always cut it in the middle and splice/extend it if you really had to. Sure, it would be ugly, but 19 pin connectors are hard to get.

I have a similar problem - I have a couple slabs (one color, one mono) and a cube. I have a color monitor, and a sound box. I do NOT have the stupid Y cable to hook the color monitor to the sound box and the computer. I also don't have a monochrome monitor.

-Ian


From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net  Tue Dec 13 11:45:05 2011
From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 11:45:05 -0600
Subject: IBM something, what is it ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE39D2B.4060405@jwsss.com>
References: <4EE3594B.5060304@bluewin.ch>
 <alpine.LFD.2.02.1112100950330.2972@cpumagic.137clearview.org>
 <4EE39D2B.4060405@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <20111213174505.GA10554@RawFedDogs.net>

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 09:55:55AM -0800, jim s wrote:

> The floppies and documentation go with the controllers / dasd units,
> not the suitcase.
> 
> buy a 3380 / 3880 / 3370 and you'll have one.
> 
> also there is a tape drive I think which takes the unit.

Where I work our 3480 drive controllers had an MD like that.  The drives and
controllers are gone, but the MD is still in the CE room.  Unfortunately at
some point someone left the disk in it and closed the lid, which folded the
disk in half.  :-(


-- 

Kevin
http://www.RawFedDogs.net
http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org
Bruceville, TX

What's the definition of a legacy system?  One that works! 
Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum.


From ian_primus at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 13 11:54:39 2011
From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:54:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1323798879.44809.YahooMailClassic@web121608.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

--- On Tue, 12/13/11, vintagecoder at aol.com <vintagecoder at aol.com> wrote:

> Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded
> to see if I can
> scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it
> would be a problem.

If you're willing to go get a CRT monitor for some kind of RF->composite->VGA kludge nightmare, why not just go get a television set? They're just as common and free. Besides, if you collect old home microcomputers or video games, you should really have at least one real TV.

> Was hoping to avoid the CRT death rays though since I did
> enough of that
> for decades. The newer flat screens seem much healthier.

I am unfamiliar with these "CRT death rays" of which you speak. If you're referring to the old wives' tale about X-radiation, then stop worrying. You're exposed to FAR more radiation aboard a commercial flight than you are from sitting in front of a CRT.

-Ian


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 11:59:09 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:59:09 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <08F6FA2C-7BA4-4B66-BB0B-1AA0B8C7CDBA@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 12:44 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote:

> --- On Tue, 12/13/11, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> Ah, wel, I have mono slabs too, so
>> that works, as well. ;) Right now
>> i'm stuck with a pile of gear, a ton of keyboards, ton of
>> montiors,
>> but only two soundboxes and y cables, and no mono cables
>> :(
> 
> At least if you have a short 19 pin cable, you can always cut it in the middle and splice/extend it if you really had to. Sure, it would be ugly, but 19 pin connectors are hard to get.

Well.

http://www.connectworld.net/cgi-bin/ccc/05MPartDB19.html

Not super-cheap, and you still have to get the multi-conductor cable, but probably a more elegant solution than hacking up an existing cable.  There are probably cheaper places, as well as ones that will sell cable assemblies.

- Dave




From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 11:59:22 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:59:22 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAH5WRh6Z271ZZB1=mAFKPzNssB01CH7umZ=7Dkpdi9AGb4=kNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4VhMxfzm=QjJnb2D3LZ2bBEgL2wyKnM_c=DNns46Fs7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Would you like to inquire about purchasing a monochrome monitor? ;)

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- On Tue, 12/13/11, Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah, wel, I have mono slabs too, so
>> that works, as well. ;) Right now
>> i'm stuck with a pile of gear, a ton of keyboards, ton of
>> montiors,
>> but only two soundboxes and y cables, and no mono cables
>> :(
>
> At least if you have a short 19 pin cable, you can always cut it in the middle and splice/extend it if you really had to. Sure, it would be ugly, but 19 pin connectors are hard to get.
>
> I have a similar problem - I have a couple slabs (one color, one mono) and a cube. I have a color monitor, and a sound box. I do NOT have the stupid Y cable to hook the color monitor to the sound box and the computer. I also don't have a monochrome monitor.
>
> -Ian



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG



From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec 13 12:03:26 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:03:26 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE6F5DD.30003@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE6F5DD.30003@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EE722EE.590.27F56E@cclist.sydex.com>

On 12 Dec 2011 at 22:51, Eric Smith wrote:

> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>  > ISIS :)
> 
> Gary wrote ISIS, so if he "lifted" it from somewhere, it's further
> back than that.

Hence my smilie.  But ISIS *did* precede CP/M.




From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Dec 13 12:04:43 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:04:43 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <200CABB1-A4C0-4AB7-80E2-CCEF1798222F@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <200CABB1-A4C0-4AB7-80E2-CCEF1798222F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111213190443.6115fcbc.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Mon, 12 Dec 2011 13:51:24 -0500
David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:

> GUIs aren't for people who don't know how to use computers, and I think
> that dangerous assumption is primarily what drives terrible GUI design
> these days.  If you assume your users are idiots and try to design
> around them, not even the smart people will be able to make use of your
> thing.
Windows was build to simplify the user interface for lusers.
X11 was build to give an engineer, using an expensive workstation,
a powerfull GUI.

Windows is a idiot compatibility layer.
X11 is a power tool for experts.
;-)
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 13:00:55 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:00:55 -0500
Subject: Looking for NeXT cables
In-Reply-To: <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <CAH5WRh6Z271ZZB1=mAFKPzNssB01CH7umZ=7Dkpdi9AGb4=kNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <1323798281.82547.YahooMailClassic@web121615.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=Mk2T1X9fOaZfJcBENSFzk17E4q7kQMzpHO=eZ_=GiCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 12:44 PM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote:
> At least if you have a short 19 pin cable, you can always cut it in the middle and splice/extend it if you really had to. Sure, it would be ugly, but 19 pin connectors are hard to get.

I have a bag of them, but then I used to fiddle with Amigas.  They
weren't common then, and they are surely less common now.

I've got a working Cube setup and a couple of mono slabs.  The last
time I checked, I had enough cables and peripherals for everything,
but no spares.  I should go tidy up that corner anyway - good time to
take an inventory.

If I find I'm a mouse or keyboard short, it's good to know a source.

-ethan


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 14:40:25 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:40:25 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <EB459F11-AEF4-4393-BE91-BB59BEAE0B93@gmail.com>
References: <201112121725.pBCHPeGg034741@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com>
 <3B37E806-A96B-4C93-8545-28D8128B8256@gmail.com>
 <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com>
 <EB459F11-AEF4-4393-BE91-BB59BEAE0B93@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7B839.4070609@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 09:34 AM, David Riley wrote:
>>> Oh, I realized he meant the modulated outputs from a
>>> computer/console.  Yeah, same signal, less propagation loss over
>>> coax.
>>
>>   The RF?  More propagation loss, not less.
>
> Really? Vs. over the air over any appreciable distance?  Seems unlikely to me, but I'm not really an RF guy.

   Oh you're absolutely right; I thought you were saying RF had less 
propagation loss over coax than video over coax.  My apologies for my 
misinterpretation of what you said.

>>> And it's really just the composite video signal modulated by a
>>> carrier;
>>
>>   Carrier modulated by the composite video signal, actually. (sorry)
>
> Haha, yes, the difference is important.  I knew that, but it came out backwards.

   I figured as much; just mentioning it for the sake of our 
frequently-searched archives.  I'm well aware that you Know Your 
Stuff(tm). :)

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From pontus at update.uu.se  Tue Dec 13 14:53:32 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:53:32 +0100
Subject: CPU Wars card game
Message-ID: <4EE7BB4C.8040001@update.uu.se>

Hi all

I just found this little card game which looks kind of neat:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/harrymylo/cpu-wars-volume-10-the-card-game

Quite x86 centric, I think the J11 would fit pretty nicely in there. 
What CPU would you add?

/P


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Dec 13 14:58:58 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:58:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131157.pBDBvM6i024195@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com>
References: <201112131157.pBDBvM6i024195@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20111213125127.F97781@shell.lmi.net>

> > Thanks for trimming
> > BUT, could use a LITTLE context.  WHICH "solution" is gruesome?
On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
> I thought it was you since my newsreader preserves the threading, but I see
> my phone I posted from doesn't include an In-Reply-To: header or perhaps it
> was filtered somewhere. I will try not to trim from my phone any more.

Naah.  Keep trimming.  We tend to leave an amazing amount of irrelevant
transcript in posts!

> I don't have any TV or video gear. I want to be able to display this on a
> monitor and the TV card id sounds like it would be ok. I rememberd the COCO
> had RF output and an adapter to go right onto the antenna terminals of a
> TV. I just did not know since I don't have the TV card where I can get to
> it right now, whether there was any obvious way to connect a signal, or if
> those cards were designed with built-in antennas and no jacks (as I believe
> Cameron said the cheap ones have no jacks).

Yes, you will need to be selective about TV cards.  Look for ones with
composite inputs, and with detachable antennas (hence an antenna
connector).   Composite out for Coco should be readily researched; if not,
Doctor Marty should still remember.

I find it hard to accept that the seemingly infinite supply of used
composite monitors is finally gone.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 15:04:53 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:04:53 -0500
Subject: CPU Wars card game
In-Reply-To: <4EE7BB4C.8040001@update.uu.se>
References: <4EE7BB4C.8040001@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <82BF6E60-E1C8-4A4A-991F-80B45DA3AF06@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 3:53 PM, Pontus wrote:

> Quite x86 centric, I think the J11 would fit pretty nicely in there. What CPU would you add?

KL10, IBM 704.


- Dave




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 15:09:06 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:09:06 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111213125127.F97781@shell.lmi.net>
References: <201112131157.pBDBvM6i024195@imr-ma03.mx.aol.com>
 <20111213125127.F97781@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE7BEF2.4060502@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 03:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> I find it hard to accept that the seemingly infinite supply of used
> composite monitors is finally gone.

   They're still around, but they're drying up fast.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Dec 13 16:20:36 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:20:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAOPi=7AH7Fp9yF_7MNR2wwh_wXE523kQu0P9jkkzxaEQbayodg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <20111212155454.W64360@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7AH7Fp9yF_7MNR2wwh_wXE523kQu0P9jkkzxaEQbayodg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111213134628.J97781@shell.lmi.net>

> > char[char][char][char][char][char][char][char](.)[char][char][char]
On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, John Willis wrote:
> > I'm reminded of an old trick from the days of DOS 3.2... keep
> people from tampering with a file by embedding an 0xFF character in the
> name... perfectly legal name, but appears in a DIR listing as a space.
> One of those security-through-obscurity things.

Since we are talking about the ACTUAL filenames, as present in the disk
DIRectory and as used in the File Control Blocks in memory, as opposed to
the REPRESENTATIONS used in communication with the user by the CLI (which
resulted in some well-intentioned person thinking that I had gotten the
structure wrong), it is certainly easy to break many of the "rules" of the
DOS filenames, at the risk of "undefined" (but FUN) results.

Character 127 is another one, as are many (most?) of the "extended"
characters.

If you go in and step on the DIRectory on the disk, you can do all sorts
of fun things.

Such as:
creating a file named "*.*", or "????????.???"
or creating a subdirectory entry for one's own parent, grandparent, or
further directory, putting CHKDSK /V and "find-next" into a loop
or creating a file with a -2147483648 byte file size (unfortunately,
copying such a file to an almost full disk does NOT increase the free
space)
or marking a DIRectory entry as "never used", thus hiding subsequent
entries
or marking the boot sector as SS on a DS diskette (the trivial copy
protection on XenoCopy-PC that completely unprotects once somebody has
given their name to be stored in the title screen of the program)
or creating a filename that will confuse the handling of Long File
NICKnames.
or '\' in a DOS 1.xx disk
or '/', '-' etc, that will confuse some CLI operations and/or programs
('+' confuses the hell out of COPY, but doesn't bother most other
operations)
or '/' in a filename on a machine on WWW (which uses Unix subdir
separators)



From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 16:23:46 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:23:46 -0500
Subject: CPU Wars card game
In-Reply-To: <4EE7BB4C.8040001@update.uu.se>
References: <4EE7BB4C.8040001@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGVRqNm63EMc219safSObVHDu0xe_uO3CmmkZQmsACfv=Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:

> Quite x86 centric, I think the J11 would fit pretty nicely in there. What
> CPU would you add?
>

It does say "Battle of the Desktops"

Sooo..

6502. 68000. uVax. PowerPC. Sparc. Alpha.


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec 13 16:39:52 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 14:39:52 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111213134628.J97781@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAOPi=7AH7Fp9yF_7MNR2wwh_wXE523kQu0P9jkkzxaEQbayodg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111213134628.J97781@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE763B8.32029.1250C43@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Dec 2011 at 14:20, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Since we are talking about the ACTUAL filenames, as present in the
> disk DIRectory and as used in the File Control Blocks in memory, as
> opposed to the REPRESENTATIONS used in communication with the user by
> the CLI (which resulted in some well-intentioned person thinking that
> I had gotten the structure wrong), it is certainly easy to break many
> of the "rules" of the DOS filenames, at the risk of "undefined" (but
> FUN) results.

Some people are surprised to find that creating a DOS file name using 
hex E5 characters is perfectly legit (DOS changes them to 05 hex).

In the bad old CP/M days, characters in filenames were pretty much 
policed only by the CLI/CCP.  A program could create a file named 
with almost anything in it, including control characters (backspace 
is fun).

But even today, I'm surprised by some Windows utilities that will 
choke on a filename made up of Cyrillic characters, for example--or 
not know how to display it.

--Chuck
 




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 16:54:19 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:54:19 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE763B8.32029.1250C43@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <CAOPi=7AH7Fp9yF_7MNR2wwh_wXE523kQu0P9jkkzxaEQbayodg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111213134628.J97781@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EE763B8.32029.1250C43@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <42A433DE-FB42-4BBB-8828-EE0EED0D29C5@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 5:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> But even today, I'm surprised by some Windows utilities that will 
> choke on a filename made up of Cyrillic characters, for example--or 
> not know how to display it.

Bah, and the number of tools that won't cope with pathnames with spaces in them, especially on Windows.  Up until a year or so ago, the Xilinx tools wouldn't even install if the installer was located in a path with a space in it (such as "C:\Documents and Settings\...").  It would actually just silently fail to launch the installer, which made me think I had a corrupt installer file or something.  It's especially irritating because it worked better before that.

I realize this is a somewhat different issue, but it's a pain.  A more related one was that Photoshop 7 on OS X would fail in a bizarre way if the volume it was launched from had non-ASCII characters in the name (in my case, it was "Se?or Disk").

- Dave


From chrism3667 at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 13 15:54:04 2011
From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:54:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: last call for AT & T 7300 UNIX PC docs
Message-ID: <1323813244.86169.YahooMailClassic@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

big box but cheap via media mail.

Philip expressed interest in the tech manual. I'll joyfully send it to him if he still wants it. Let me know Phillip. I'll just chuck the rest I guess. Have the Wordstar manual/s too, but no disks.


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 15:41:12 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:41:12 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111212150025.S62271@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 12,
 11 03:05:02 pm
Message-ID: <m1Raa67-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Mon, 12 Dec 2011, John Foust wrote:
> > The CoCo 2 has an RF output on channel 3.  You need a device that can
> > tune to analog channel 3, then output something your new TV can handle.
> 
> Like the Coco 1, it should be TRIVIAL to tap a composite video signal
> (almost-NTSC)

WHgen I was using a UK CoCo 2, I found it tirivial to take the composite 
signal at the input to the modulator module and send it to a composite 
monitor. 

> 
> > If your TV still has an analog cable tuner, did you try that?
> > If your TV doesn't have a tuner, a tightwad alternative is an old VCR that
> > can tune to 3, then output to composite or S-Video.
> 
> output into a DVD RECORDER, write DVDs, carry them over to a PC, and play
> them there :-)
> 
> 
> There ARE cheap TVs available, that DO have analog tuners.

A couiple of of years ago we bought a Sony LCD TV. This thing has a wide 
variety of inputs (one of the reasons we bought it) and both analogue and 
digitial tuner/dcoder circuits (so it will handle the RF output of UK 
home computers). Apart fro ma few HDMI inputs, it also has a pair of 
SCART sockets (giving composite video, S video and analogue RGB inputs), 
a DE15 socket (VGA input, although not that many different scan rates), 
composite input on an RCA socketand ;component video'. I assume soemthing 
simialr exists now.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 15:50:05 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:50:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEvdqYEu_g8z8apLVPrY5NKHAFSaMzuAspvMtKjXKeXkg@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 13, 11 01:25:36 am
Message-ID: <m1RaaEi-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> Ahh, but learning what?
> 
> I am quite passionate about learning new languages. I speak a tiny
> smattering of half a dozen; I would like to get them all to fluency
> and add a few more. I am vaguely considering doing a degree in it.
> 
> I would love to learn to surf, to snowboard, to hang-glide, to fly a
> helicopter, to play several musical instruments and many other things.

In my case, the only things I _want_ to learn releate to 
electronics/computing/enginering/etc. I'd learn other stuff if I had to dor 
soem reason, but I probably wound't do it for fun.

So I'll happily read about differnt ways to design a particular circuit, 
or how to use machine tools, or OS internals. Or optical design, clock 
escapements, camera shtuter dseign. But I am not going to take up 
hang-gliding....

> It's the arcana of the next generation of Windows, or of this year's
> Linux desktop, that I am growing tired of.

Now thatI can fully understnad :-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 15:56:19 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:56:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE6C75E.3010408@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 12,
 11 10:32:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaaKk-000J4PC@p850ug1>

> > And it's really just the composite video signal modulated by a
> > carrier;
> 
>    Carrier modulated by the composite video signal, actually. (sorry)

A  lot of modul;aotr circutis are symmetircal betwene the signal and 
carrier inputs I think. So isn't it just a matter of convention as to 
what is modulating what?

> 
> > normally, if something only provides the RF out (like the
> > CoCo, as folks have mentioned), you can tap the composite signal
> > somewhere further up the chain if you need the baseband signal.
> 
>    Yes.  The first time I did this was with a Timex/Sinclair 1000.  That 
> wasn't the first mod, though...the first thing it got was a reset 
> button, as I was doing lots of assembler hacking on it. ;)

IThat was the first mod I did to my CoCo 2. Remember we have TV licences 
over here and at the time I was a student away from home. Rahter than 
eitehr buyign a license or doing battle with the authorities (it would 
have bene perfectly legal not to have a licence, since I had no 
intentnion of watching broadcast TV...), I modifeid the CoOC 2 to output 
composite video and fet it into a monitor. I think I added a 1 transistor 
audo amplifier and spekaer inside the CoCo to get sound.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 16:01:24 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:01:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112130532.AAA01996@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 13, 11 00:32:41 am
Message-ID: <m1RaaPf-000J4SC@p850ug1>

> 
> >> I find they [solderless breadboards] save time.  Not so much because
> >> it's faster to build something that way, but because it's a lot
> >> easier to do experimental stuff that way, stuff that involves lots
> >> of test-change-retest cycles,
> > That actually is one of my dislikes of them.  They encourage 'fiddle
> > until it seems to work' designing,
> 
> That's not what I'm talking about.  Any tool can be misused, and that

My apologies. Actually, I didn;'t think you would do something like that...

But I've certainly met so-called 'designers' who change things until the 
circuit seems ot work with no really understandign fo hy. They're akin to 
'rogramms' who change loop limits, fiddle iwth conditional tests (invert 
them, change AND to OR, etc until the progam seems to work. I am sure 
many of use have met such people :-(

> is a misuse of this one - nor is someone who engages in that sort of

True... And the fact that a tool can be misueed is no reason not to
ever consider using it.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 16:44:28 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:44:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com> from
 "vintagecoder@aol.com" at Dec 13, 11 12:04:15 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rab5L-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> Tony said:
> 
> >I normally pick of the compostie signal before the RF modulator (if there
> >isn't a composite video ouptu socket anyway, there isn't on the CoCo II,
> >there is on the 3) and feed it to a composite-input CRT-based monitor.
> 
> I've been away from my tools too long (don't ask) and I wasn't thinking of

I thought your original message did vie the option of 'building' the 
converters

> doing any surgery on the COCO since it's pristine. The whole deal is I

Ah, OK... It's up to you. The mod should be reversable, but it wil 
involve opening the case which would damage the sticekr over one of the 
screws. You may not wnat to do that.
> >> dream, DVI?  What do you call such a conv erter? Thanks.
> 
> > I beleive composite to HDMI converters esixt (may work with DVI too, I
> > can't see why they'd need the decryption key from the TV set). Over here
> > they are often called 'SCART to HDMI converters', since the composite
> > input is on a SCART socket. Of course sucvh things only work if oyu have
> > a compostie video output from your home computer, not just the an RF
> > output.
> 
> I think somebody said the COCO doesn't have composite output.

No, the CoCO 2 (and origianl CoCo) do not haev composite outputs. The 
CoCo 3 does, BTW. I was suggestign modifying the CoCo to extract the 
compositie signal.

> 
> >> Not cheap, though (getting on for $100). an old CRT monitor is cheaper
> >> and probalbly more repairable if you have the space for it. 
> 
> Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can

No. As I said in another message tonight, the most important thing is the 
scan rate, If you haev a CRT monitor that can do TV rates (not a 
workstation monitor or a VGA monitor or..) then you can probably get it 
to work with the CoCo, but it might involve modifying one or both devices.

> scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.
> Was hoping to avoid the CRT death rays though since I did enough of that

What 'death rays'???

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 16:49:06 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:49:06 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust"
 at Dec 13, 11 08:11:28 am
Message-ID: <m1Rab9o-000J4ZC@p850ug1>

> 
> At 06:04 AM 12/13/2011, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
> >Hmmm, will any old CRT monitor work? I might be pursuaded to see if I can
> >scrounge one of those even though finding a home for it would be a problem.
> 
> 
> Oh, no, this thread has so much miscommunication in it, we have to keep
> it going.
> 
> I assume you're not in the USA?  So when you buy the average LCD TV
> in Europe, does it not include the same threaded "F" connector for

F connectors are only really used for satellite1st IF connections over 
here (output of the LNB, etc). The TV aerial plug is a push-in thing 
commonly called a 'coax plug' over here.

> an RF input, that would be able to tune this "channel 3" (61.25 MHz)?

UK(onlt) TVs often do not cover the VHF channels (continental European 
ones often do). 

But then what sort of CoCo 2 is it? There is a UK vertsion of the CoCo 2 
which outpuys PAL encoded video and has a UHF mnodulator outputting on 
our TV channel 36. UK TVs with analogue tuner/decoder circuits can tuen 
to that. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 14:42:31 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:42:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 12, 11 08:28:49 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaZBP-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12 December 2011 16:58, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> >
> > In article <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=3DJPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw at mail.=
> gmail.com>,
> > =A0 =A0Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
> >
> >> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
> >
> > Really?
> >
> > Because for me, learning about new systems is about the only thing
> > that keeps my job interesting and keeps this hobby interesting.
> 
> I quite enjoy dabbling with new Linux GUIs and so on, but TBH, no. I
> stand by what I said.
[List of machines deleted]

> And many more I can't call to mind.
> 
> I'm tired of it.

I find this a somewhat curious attitude for a regualr on this list (Note, 
to avoid the flamage, I am saying that _I_ find it curious, not that 
you're in any way wrong). One of the things about classic computers is 
that they're not all the same, they run differnet OSes with vatious 
command lines and GUIs. So learning obscurew OSes is certain;y one reason 
to get invovled with classic computers.

> I want my computers to just /work/. I expected all the complexity and

That's whay I run classic machiens (Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but only 
somewhat).

[..]

> want and that just do it, with no more maintenance than a toaster.

Now leetys see... That means you want to take the case off and lcean out 
the crumbs every couple of months and replace an element and adjust the 
control mechanism about once a year... Or at least that's my experience 
of toasters.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 14:47:32 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:47:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112122133.pBCLXVml013278@floodgap.com> from "Cameron Kaiser"
 at Dec 12, 11 01:33:31 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaZGE-000J49C@p850ug1>

> However, what you can't use is an S-video switchbox as a cheapo K-M switch.
> So here's today's trivia question: when I did this, the system kept acting
> like I was pressing the power button. :)

I'll make a guess at this... The S-video conenctor has 2 ground pins, 
which are normally strapped together inside devices like switchboxes. I 
am assuming that on the ADB conenctor, one is ground, the other is the 
power-on line. So when you connect ths ADB cable to n S-video switchbox,, 
you get the power-on pin groudned al lthe time.

> 
> The same principle allows you to create an "ADB boot dongle" for non-MacOS
> systems. My 7300 NetBSD system had one plugged into the keyboard, since
> NetBSD would ignore that, and even if the PMU was not working correctly it
> would always boot it after a power failure.

I'm guessing this is a 4 pin mini-DIN with the appopriate 2 pins wired 
together. Or a bent paperclip stick into the correct 2 contacts of the 
socket ;-)

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 15:32:21 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:32:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE67721.20301@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 12,
 11 04:50:25 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaZxZ-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/12/2011 12:15 PM, vintagecoder at aol.com wrote:
> >> Or you can get a TV card for a PC for under $20.  Most of them work
> >> nicely with Linux and all of them work with Windows, though the actual
> >> viewing applications get a bit ugly.
> >
> > I meant to ask about this since I have no idea what it is, I thought it
> > would be used for receiving over-the-air TV signals. Are you saying they
> > have input jacks that would work with old computers that had TV output
> > connections?
> 
>    Indeed, those are the SAME signals!  Think about it. :)

I am going to try to expalin the various types of video signal... Let's 
start with monochrome.

We all know that in a CRT monitor the electron beam scans the screen one 
line at a time. The main part of the analogue monochrome signal controls 
the intenstiy of this be am, and thus the brightness of that point on the 
screen. We also need to synchronise the scanning of the electron beam in 
the monitor with the source of the signal, to do this it's conventiaonal 
to hae a pair of signals, one to mean 'start a new line' (horizontal, or 
'line' sync)  the other to mean 'start a new screen (vertical or 'frame' 
sync). 

If the monitor is near the video source, you van send these 3 signals 
over 3 seaprate wires. Or you can combine the 2 sync signals into one to 
make something called 'composite sync' and send that over one wire and 
the video infortmation over another wire.

Or you can put it all into one signal, this is known as 'composite 
video', 

Of course a major use of such signals is television. You cna't send a 
cposite video signal directly by radio, jsut as you can't send the audio 
output of a microphone driectly. In both cases you have to use that 
signal to modulate an radio frequency carrier. The receiving set 
demodulates the signal, gettting back the original composite video or 
audio signal and then outputs that. 

Now in the 'home computer' era, monitors were expensive, and most TV sets 
did not have composite video input sockets, they just had sockets to 
conenct an aerial. Therefore, many home omputers inculded a device called 
an 'RF modulator' which is bnasically a very low power TV transmitter, It 
produces an RF signal and modualtes it wit hthe composite video signal 
fro mthe computer's video circuitry. The result can be fed to thraerial 
input of a TV set, as it's similalr electrically to the signal you'd get 
froma TV aerial. The TV set then demodulates it back to composite video 
and displays it. 

Now for colour. It is a quirk of the uman eye that you can get the visual 
effect of any paritcular colour by seeing the appropriate amounts of red, 
green, and blue light. So you could have 3 separate signals, one for each 
or red, green, and blue along with the synchronisation signals. This is 
the RGB video system (for example VGA and its derivatives). Or you coudl 
combine the syncs with one of the colour signals to make a composite 
signal, and have hte pther 2 colours separate (for soem reason, the green 
signal is nearly alwyas used to make the composite signal -- this is the 
'sync on green#' system ).One vey obscure method is to combine one of the 
syncs iwth one colour and the other sync with a different colour, again 
ending up withe 3 signals. I think Tektronix ddi this at one point, you 
are not likely to come across it.

However, having RGB separate is not suitable for television. One of the 
requiremetns for a colour television system is that is has to be 
compatible -- both ways -- with monochrome TV. What I mean by that is 
that a colour TV must display a monochrome TV signal (with no colour 
information in it) as a black and white picture. And a monochrom TV set 
-- even one designed before the colour system was introduced -- must 
display a colour TV signal as a good  monochrome picture. 

FOr tht reason, the 3 colour signals have to be processed to form other 
signals. One of this is the luminance (or 'Y') signal, which is a 
weifgthed sum of the R,G, and B signals. This, if turned into composite 
video by adding the syncs will display correctly as a monochrome signal. 

The colour information can be encoded in various ways. The NTSC system 
has a 'colour suubcarrier' sgianl which is modulated to carry this 
information/. At the start of each line, a short burst of the subcarrier 
is sent to give the scoder circuit a phase reference. Then throughout the 
line, the phhase of this subcarrier determiens the hue (colour) of that 
part of the picture, the amplitude of the subcarrier determines hte 
saturation (who far the colour is from what -- for example red and pink 
could be the same hue, but red has a higher saturation than pink). 

PAL is much the same except that the phase of the burst and the 
subcarriar is fillped on every other line, so that phase errors in the 
system just cause slight desaturation of the colours rather than a change 
in hue (which is much more noticeable). 

Once you have combined the colour and luminance information, you have a 
composite colour video signal. This can then be modualted onto an RF 
carrier and transmitted. Or in the case of a home computer it can be fed 
to the RF modualtor circuit and set to the aerial input of a colour TV 
set. Of course sure ot the compatibility requirements I've mentioend, a 
home computer that doesn't output colour information (say a ZX81) will 
work with a monochorme or colour TV set (and display a black and white 
picture), a home computer that outputs colour information (say the CoCo) 
will work with a monochrome TV, you just don't get to ser the colours. 

S video is a conenctor carrying 2 signals. One is the lumninance 
information (only), the other is the colour information encoded using 
NTSC or PAL or whatever. The recent-ish system of 'component video' is 3 
signals. I beleive (please correct me), that despite the colours of the 
plugsand sockets uses, these are not separate RGB signals. They are the 
luminance signal and 2 'colour difference' signals (I suspect R-Y and B-Y).

SO far I've said nothign aobtu the scan rates. Home computes, designed to 
work with TV sets, wll use the same scan atss as the applicable TV 
ssytem. The horixzontal scan is around 15kHz, the vertical scan is very 
close ot the mains frequency. Other machiens, particularly workstations 
can have just about any scan rate immaginable. 

Interconmverting between composite video, RF-modulated video, 
adding/decoding the colour, etc are relatively simple compared to 
converting the scan rate (which often invovles storing the image in a 
memory deivce nad reading it out at a different rate). For that reason, 
if toy have to convert a monitor to use with a strange machine, pick one 
with the same scan rates and encode/decode the video signal appropriately.

In geneeral, it is easier to modifiy a monitor to handle a differnt 
vertical scan rate htan a differnet horizontal scan rate. The European 
and US TV hjorizotnal san rates are close enough that most monitors that 
will work with one will wrok with the other, and often a tweak of the 
vertical hold control will get the vertical to lock as well. If not, it's 
a fairly simple modification if you have the schematic. 

A few practical hints...

Most home computes have an RF modualtoe module inside. This is a metal 
box on the PCB, the cable to the TV aerial socket plugs into it. There 
are 3, 4 or 5 conenctions to this unit, including the metal case (which is 
systme ground). The other connections are a poer input (often 5V or 12V), 
compostie video in, audio in (if the =comptue sends sound otthe TV) and 
maybe a tuning or channel select input. The compostie signal will often 
tive a composite monitor directly, sometimes you need a simple transistor 
buffer circuit. I would recoment bypassign the modualtor (and thus the 
demodualtor circuit in the TV set) if your display device has composite 
inputs, you get better quality and there's less to go wrong.

If you want to strt makniong your own PAL or NTSC to RGB decoders, I 
would look at hte Philips chips from the 1990s. Philips published data 
sheets on them (which is a good start...) and you can use the scheamtics 
of their TVs as an 'application circuit'. Be warned that settign up a 
colour decoder is not that easy. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 13 15:33:54 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:33:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 12,
 11 04:50:59 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaZz3-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/12/2011 01:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
> >>> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
> >>
> >> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
> > is fun.  Ah, the real days of low security....)
> 
>    Same here, and learning new things in general.  The day I stop 
> learning, and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.

\begin{AOL}
Me too
\end{AOL}

I've said befoer that the day I stop learning is the day I am put in a  
pine box/ Which is the cause and which the effect remains to be seen :-)

-tony



From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 13 17:01:45 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:01:45 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE722EE.590.27F56E@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE6F5DD.30003@brouhaha.com> <4EE722EE.590.27F56E@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
 > But ISIS *did* precede CP/M.

I don't think that's the case, at least in terms of when they were 
written.  As I understand it, Kildall tried to sell CP/M to Intel, and 
Intel didn't buy it, apparently because Kildall didn't want to sell them 
exclusive rights.  That resulted in the creation of ISIS as an Intel 
exclusive.

Possibly CP/M wasn't offered for sale to the public until after 
shipments of ISIS started, but I don't really know the first ship dates 
of either.

Eric



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 17:09:10 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:09:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: last call for AT & T 7300 UNIX PC docs
In-Reply-To: <1323813244.86169.YahooMailClassic@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1323813244.86169.YahooMailClassic@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112131807550.2480@duo>

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Chris M wrote:

> big box but cheap via media mail.
>
> Philip expressed interest in the tech manual. I'll joyfully send it to 
> him if he still wants it. Let me know Phillip. I'll just chuck the rest 
> I guess. Have the Wordstar manual/s too, but no disks.

Wordstar for Unix PC?  I would very much like to get my hands on the 
diskettes for that.  Don't need manuals - Wordstar is Wordstar and I have 
manuals for a couple of other platforms.

Steve



-- 



From alhartman at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 13 18:03:20 2011
From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:03:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.563.1323798289.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.563.1323798289.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1323821000.78770.YahooMailNeo@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Listen fellows...

I worked for two of the major hardware/software suppliers for the Radio Shack Color Computers. I have 10 of them in the next room, as well as a Tano Dragon 64k.

A stock Color Computer or Color Computer 2 has no Composite output. It only has an RF Modulator that tunes to channels 3 or 4 VHF (U.S. Models, I have no experience with other versions).

You cannot GET a composite signal without cracking the case and soldering a few wires to a simple circuit to clean up the signal. Several companies sold a tiny board with a few components that provided composite video and standard audio for use with a regular composite monitor (Mark Data Products, Dennis Bathory Kitsz, and a few others. I liked the MDP product best as it used little spring loaded clips and was basically solderless.). You can easily build one with parts in your junk box, or maybe $5 in parts from a local Radio Shack.

I will track down the schematic and find a way to post it.

The next best solution is the idea of using a VHS Player to capture the RF signal and convert it to Composite internally.

There are several Coco Emulators that one could just use on a PC and bypass the whole thing. Jeff Vavasour's (?http://www.vavasour.ca/jeff/trs80.html#coco2?) is supposed to be one of the best.

I really like the Coco system, and I wish I had room to set one of mine up.

I co-wrote The Coco Greeting Card Designer, which was similar to the greeting card version of Print Shop. I have the rights to sell the follow-on, The Coco Graphics Designer which has all the different things with a Mac-like GUI frontend. I just need to make the manuals up and duplicate the disks from my master copies.

I also have the rights to the Car Sign Designer on the IBM-PC (DOS), C-64, and Coco. I have the disks, manuals, and car sign holders but need a working C-64 to test the disks. I got a c64 AND 1541 in trade, but the 1541 doesn't work and I haven't fixed it yet.

Al



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 18:18:05 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:18:05 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaaPf-000J4SC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaaPf-000J4SC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112140018.TAA15333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> [Solderless breadboards] encourage 'fiddle until it seems to work'
>>> designing,
>> That's not what I'm talking about.  [...]
> My apologies.  Actually, I didn;'t think you would do something like
> that...

I have done it, actually, though I think without the "no real
understanding of why" part.  For example, I once built a phase-shift
oscillator out of three RC phase-shift stages and an op-amp.  But I
wanted something as close as feasible to a sine wave.  So I put a
variable resistor in the op-amp fedback, to control the gain.  Then I
fiddled with that.  Crank the gain up and I got a severely clipped
waveform; crank it down and it wouldn't oscillate (neither of which was
surprising in the least).  I fiddled with it until I found a setting
that made the amplitude just barely grow, growing until it just barely
clipped, at which point it stabilized.  (It grew fairly slowly; it took
multiple seconds to reach the point of clipping and stabilizing.)
Finding the exact resistor value theoretically would have required
knowing precise values for the components in the R-C network, the other
resistor in the op-amp feedback, loading from parasitic capacitance
(actually, the frequency - something in the audio range, I think - was
low enough that one might have been ignorable), etc.

I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never
actually got the round tuits for that.

It fits the "fiddle until it seems to work" words you used, but I don't
think it's the kind of design-without-understanding you appear to have
meant to be (correctly, IMO) castigating.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 18:27:47 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:27:47 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaZGE-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaZGE-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <F80C0032-A47E-44C3-AD02-4257407B00B8@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 3:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

>> However, what you can't use is an S-video switchbox as a cheapo K-M switch.
>> So here's today's trivia question: when I did this, the system kept acting
>> like I was pressing the power button. :)
> 
> I'll make a guess at this... The S-video conenctor has 2 ground pins, 
> which are normally strapped together inside devices like switchboxes. I 
> am assuming that on the ADB conenctor, one is ground, the other is the 
> power-on line. So when you connect ths ADB cable to n S-video switchbox,, 
> you get the power-on pin groudned al lthe time.

Yeah, ADB had 4 pins in a Mini-DIN (exact same connector as standard S-Video): +5v, ground, serial and power-switch.  The keyboard's power key is hard-wired to pull down the power switch pin.  S-Video has two video signals and a signal ground, so I guess the switch-box grounded those instead of tying them to the input (or opening the circuit when deselected).

- Dave




From mokuba at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 18:35:25 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:35:25 -0500
Subject: last call for AT & T 7300 UNIX PC docs
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112131807550.2480@duo>
References: <1323813244.86169.YahooMailClassic@web65515.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112131807550.2480@duo>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh4ipJ0C8MR28GUKowqFdyChAR7yDg7tcEZkkTX8fBEgAA@mail.gmail.com>

If no one else, ill take the manuals and whatnot. Got some room and hate to
see docs go to waste!
On Dec 13, 2011 7:11 PM, "Steven Hirsch" <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, Chris M wrote:
>
>  big box but cheap via media mail.
>>
>> Philip expressed interest in the tech manual. I'll joyfully send it to
>> him if he still wants it. Let me know Phillip. I'll just chuck the rest I
>> guess. Have the Wordstar manual/s too, but no disks.
>>
>
> Wordstar for Unix PC?  I would very much like to get my hands on the
> diskettes for that.  Don't need manuals - Wordstar is Wordstar and I have
> manuals for a couple of other platforms.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> --
>
>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 18:45:06 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 19:45:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaZxZ-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaZxZ-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112140045.TAA15630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Now for colour. It is a quirk of the uman eye that you can get the
> visual effect of any paritcular colour by seeing the appropriate
> amounts of red, green, and blue light.

This is only approximately true.  There are two reasons it's only
approximate.

One is the likely existence of human tetrachromats.  There are two
viable alleles known for one of the colour receptor pigments; a woman
(it's on the X chromosome) may have both of them, presumably leading to
a richer experience of colour than men or other women.

The other is that it's (almost) certain there are light spectra that
produce retinal excitation patterns not recreatable by RGB triples.
This is because the retinal pigments' sensitivities overlap somewhat;
for example, green light stimulates the red and blue receptors to some
minor extent.  The sensitivity curves are not very complex, each being
a fairly broad single hump from what I can tell, but, especially at the
ends of the spectrum, there can be colour experiences that cannot be
reproduced with three-spike RGB spectra.  (Example, using made-up
numbers: consider light in the high violet which produces stimulation
ratios R=1 G=10 B=100, while the light produced by blue phosphor - or
blue LCD filter component - cannot reach B=100 with G less than 25.  As
I said, the numbers are made up, but I'm confident the basic idea is
valid.  I have certainly had colour percepts from objects that do not
exist anywhere in the computer-display RGB cube.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 18:48:15 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:48:15 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 December 2011 17:18, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:12:53 +0100
> Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:
>
>> > Well. Thats why I say: Linux evolved from a free Unix clone for Unix
>> > lovers into a bad Windows surrogate for M$ haters. ;-)
>> Ah, I disagree. One certainly _can_ run whatever crap Ubuntu decides to
>> call the default graphics interface today, but one doesn't _have_ to.
> Sure, you can replace GNOME / KDE with twm...
> But that is not what I am talking about. It's the way Linux even feels
> from the command line. All too often shell scripts start with #!/bin/sh
> where #!/bin/bash would fit better...

But the default shell /is/ bash in almost every distro I've seen...?

> Mysterious "configuration
> wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files,

Not seen that.

> poor
> man-pages

Also a problem on real commercial Unix sometimes.

> , aliases like rm='rm -i' in the default .profile,

Very good safety net for newbies.

> locked out
> root-accounts, so that you can't log into the machine even on the text
> console to fix a broken X11 or NIS,

Ditto, and a decent security measure too.

> no real single user mode,

A Debian issue not an Ubuntu one, no?

>  ^C not
> working at boot time, ...

What would you have it do?

Do remember that Ubuntu is "Linux for human beings" - for newbies and
Windows users, *not* for Linux experts. There are *lots* of distros
for them.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 18:51:52 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:51:52 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>

On 13 December 2011 05:22, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated:
>> On 12 December 2011 22:43, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>> >> There are certain commands I've come across that handles extentions
>> >> poorly. ?Like gunzip:
>> >
>> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
>> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo
>> >> gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
>> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>
>> >
>> > Yes. ?Annoying, but understandable - without the .gz on there, how is
>> > it to know what file to put the result in?
>>
>> *Shudder*
>>
>> Your acceptable peculiarity is my hated misfeature.
>
> ?gunzip will create a file based on the filename but without the ".gz"
> extension. ?There are only a few choices I see for gunzip handing this:

What I expect, want and demand:

It unpacks to the name(s) of the file(s) [and folders] in the archive
and leaves the original archive the fsck alone.

In my early Linux days, I was /very/ annoyed several times when Gunzip
cheerfully *removed the archive I told it to unpack*. This is
*absolutely* unacceptable to my mind.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From alhartman at yahoo.com  Tue Dec 13 18:55:38 2011
From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 16:55:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 34
In-Reply-To: <mailman.567.1323821010.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.567.1323821010.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1323824138.94306.YahooMailNeo@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Ok, I dug up the schematic. This is for the Video Only. You'll have to get a copy of the Coco Schematics to find out where to tap the audio (Probably at the input to the RF Modulator, but I don' t know what you'd have to do to make it sound good)...

http://img190.imageshack.us/img190/8801/23fa5940.gif

(The "New Board" mentioned in the GIF means the Coco 2 logic board)

Here is a link to a repository that has the service manuals:

http://goyim.dyndns.org:8080/coco/Documents/Manuals/Hardware/

That's the best I can do now, as my Cocos are on a top shelf I can't reach anymore and can't pull one down to look at the installed adapter.

Hope this helps.

Al


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 19:03:24 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:03:24 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7F5DC.3020903@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 07:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> , aliases like rm='rm -i' in the default .profile,
>
> Very good safety net for newbies.

   That's fighting Darwin.  People will burn themselves on a hot stove 
ONCE, then they'll pay attention.

> Do remember that Ubuntu is "Linux for human beings" - for newbies and
> Windows users, *not* for Linux experts. There are *lots* of distros
> for them.

   I consider myself a UNIX expert (and a Linux one by extension) and 
I'm quite happy with Ubuntu as my primary desktop OS.  It does nothing 
to keep people who know what they're doing from doing whatever they want 
to do.

   Just FYI.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 19:05:24 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:05:24 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112140018.TAA15333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RaaPf-000J4SC@p850ug1>
 <201112140018.TAA15333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE7F654.1070407@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 07:18 PM, Mouse wrote:
> I once built a phase-shift
> oscillator out of three RC phase-shift stages and an op-amp.  But I
> wanted something as close as feasible to a sine wave.  So I put a
> variable resistor in the op-amp fedback, to control the gain.  Then I
> fiddled with that.  Crank the gain up and I got a severely clipped
> waveform; crank it down and it wouldn't oscillate (neither of which was
> surprising in the least).  I fiddled with it until I found a setting
> that made the amplitude just barely grow, growing until it just barely
> clipped, at which point it stabilized.  (It grew fairly slowly; it took
> multiple seconds to reach the point of clipping and stabilizing.)
> Finding the exact resistor value theoretically would have required
> knowing precise values for the components in the R-C network, the other
> resistor in the op-amp feedback, loading from parasitic capacitance
> (actually, the frequency - something in the audio range, I think - was
> low enough that one might have been ignorable), etc.
>
> I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never
> actually got the round tuits for that.

   Perhaps an incandescent light bulb might help out there. =)

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 13 19:08:32 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:08:32 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112140045.TAA15630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RaZxZ-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <201112140045.TAA15630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE7F710.1050206@brouhaha.com>

Someone wrote:
>  Now for colour. It is a quirk of the uman eye that you can get the
>  visual effect of any paritcular colour by seeing the appropriate
>  amounts of red, green, and blue light.

Mouse wrote:
 > This is only approximately true. There are two reasons it's only
 > approximate.

 > One is the likely existence of human tetrachromats. There are two
 > viable alleles known for one of the colour receptor pigments;

There are *many* alleles for the green pigment, and at least a few for 
red.  The genes are long and it is common for them to get transcribed 
wrong, i.e., to have a gene for the green pigment that partway through 
turns into a copy of the tail of the gene for the red pigment.  This 
usually results in a pigment with a frequency response peak close to the 
linear interpolation of the fraction of the green and red gene components.

That still means that any color perceptible by that person could be 
produced as the sum of three primaries, though the necessary primaries 
may be different than those necessary for another person.

 > a woman
 > (it's on the X chromosome) may have both of them, presumably leading to
 > a richer experience of colour than men or other women.

No one has been able to demonstrate that this has any effect; it is 
possible that the brain is unable to distinguish red1 from red2, which 
would then effectively be just a slightly wider peak for red.

 > The other is that it's (almost) certain there are light spectra that
 > produce retinal excitation patterns not recreatable by RGB triples.
 > This is because the retinal pigments' sensitivities overlap somewhat;
 > for example, green light stimulates the red and blue receptors to some
 > minor extent. The sensitivity curves are not very complex, each being
 > a fairly broad single hump from what I can tell, but, especially at the
 > ends of the spectrum, there can be colour experiences that cannot be
 > reproduced with three-spike RGB spectra. (Example, using made-up
 > numbers: consider light in the high violet which produces stimulation
 > ratios R=1 G=10 B=100, while the light produced by blue phosphor - or
 > blue LCD filter component - cannot reach B=100 with G less than 25.

It's certainly possible to create B=100 with G=0.  It's not surprising 
that CRTs and LCDs do not have sharp enough spectral lines to do this.  
There are laser-based display systems that do.  With the right three 
primaries for an individual (possibly four for a tetrachromat), with 
sufficiently sharp spectral lines, it is quite possible to produce the 
equivalent to any other perceptual color.




From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 13 19:16:29 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:16:29 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <F80C0032-A47E-44C3-AD02-4257407B00B8@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 13, 11 07:27:47 pm"
Message-ID: <201112140116.pBE1GUEH010162@floodgap.com>

> > > However, what you can't use is an S-video switchbox as a cheapo KM switch.
> > > So here's today's trivia question: when I did this, the system kept acting
> > > like I was pressing the power button. :)
> > 
> > I'll make a guess at this... The S-video conenctor has 2 ground pins, 
> > which are normally strapped together inside devices like switchboxes. I 
> > am assuming that on the ADB conenctor, one is ground, the other is the 
> > power-on line. So when you connect ths ADB cable to n S-video switchbox,, 
> > you get the power-on pin groudned al lthe time.
> 
> Yeah, ADB had 4 pins in a Mini-DIN (exact same connector as standard
> S-Video): +5v, ground, serial and power-switch.  The keyboard's power key is
> hard-wired to pull down the power switch pin.  S-Video has two video signals
> and a signal ground, so I guess the switch-box grounded those instead of
> tying them to the input (or opening the circuit when deselected).

A point for each of you.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. -- Bertrand Russell ---------


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 19:16:29 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:16:29 -0500
Subject: gzip's behavior, was Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 07:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> What I expect, want and demand:
>
> It unpacks to the name(s) of the file(s) [and folders] in the archive
> and leaves the original archive the fsck alone.
>
> In my early Linux days, I was /very/ annoyed several times when Gunzip
> cheerfully *removed the archive I told it to unpack*. This is
> *absolutely* unacceptable to my mind.

   Why?  Because it differs from another tool that you may have been 
accustomed to?  If that's why, be aware that gzip's user interface is 
patterned after a tool that far predates pkzip/pkarc/arc/etc, and that 
behavior has been the accepted one that has been considered logical and 
good since the 1970s.

   Also be advised that you didn't tell it to unpack an archive 
(something gzip doesn't do), you told it to decompress a compressed 
file.  Tar (say) doesn't remove a tar file after extracting its 
contents, because...well, cheerfully removing the archive you told it to 
unpack would be absolutely unacceptable.

   Decompressing a compressed file is a whole different animal; you can 
get things right back where they were (if you need to) with a single 
command.  The only possible difference is the original user's 
compression setting, and I respectfully submit that the loss of that 
information isn't frequently a big deal.

   File compression is something that you "do" to a single file.  Should 
"undoing" it result in two copies of the file, one with it "done" and 
the other with it "undone"?  THAT seems ridiculous to me.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec 13 19:19:28 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:19:28 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>, <4EE722EE.590.27F56E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EE78920.1336.1B72999@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Dec 2011 at 15:01, Eric Smith wrote:

> I don't think that's the case, at least in terms of when they were
> written.  As I understand it, Kildall tried to sell CP/M to Intel, and
> Intel didn't buy it, apparently because Kildall didn't want to sell
> them exclusive rights.  That resulted in the creation of ISIS as an
> Intel exclusive.

It would be interesting to find a definitive timeline.  The first 
CP/M version I ever saw was 1.3, bundled with the IMSAI disk setup.  
But I'd already been using ISIS on an MDS by then.  It's an 
interesting subject.  PL/M certainly precedes them both, as Gary 
wrote most of ISIS and great swatches of CP/M in it--but it started 
life as a cross-compiler.

But Gary's naming conventions, use of colons to denote physical 
devices, were certainly DEC, but which particular product is a 
thornier issue as DEC (as well as other manufacturers) product lines 
borrowed extensively from one another.

Where the DEC conventions came from is another question.  Certainly, 
the use of asterisk meaning "don't care" or "default" very old.

Which OS was the first to allow for execution of both system and user-
created program files by the simple mention of the program name with 
an optional argument list?

--Chuck



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:35:22 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:35:22 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 12:13 AM, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>> On 12/12/11 3:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can
>>>> you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very
>>>> poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is
>>>> neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>>
>>>    Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
>>> commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:
>>>
>>>    And GCC also has trouble with extentions:
>>>
>> Errr... again, these are *programs*, not Unix...
>
>    Again, what is *your* definition of Unix?  The Unix *kernel* only cares

Easy. You can make the program behave how you like regarding extensions, 
but it will still run on Unix.

It's not necessary to change the operating system to fix this. But 
perhaps Liam misspoke in the heat of the moment, and meant "*shell* 
handles file extensions very poorly". I haven't seen a correction in 
this vein yet, so this is only a theory.


> that a filename does not contain '/' or a NUL byte (given that a NUL byte
> terminates the filename) be less than N bytes in size (N varies, but is at
> least 14).
>
>    The *rest* of the system, what the user interacts with, may care a bit
> more about filenames and may make it a pain to use certain characters
> (shells make it difficult to use spaces and some punctuation, certain
> programs like gcc and gunzip care about extentions).

Yes. That's my point.

--Toby

>
>    So I take it from your reply that you are talking about the *kernel* and
> not the rest of the system.
>
>    -spc (Sure, I could restrict myself to using just a Unix kernel, but I
> 	won't be very productive ... )
>



From spc at conman.org  Tue Dec 13 19:36:49 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:36:49 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated:
> On 13 December 2011 05:22, Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote:
> > It was thus said that the Great Liam Proven once stated:
> >> On 12 December 2011 22:43, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
> >> >> There are certain commands I've come across that handles extentions
> >> >> poorly. ?Like gunzip:
> >> >
> >> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>mv x-grey.tar.gz x-grey.tar.foo
> >> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>gunzip x-grey.tar.foo
> >> >> gunzip: x-grey.tar.foo: unknown suffix -- ignored
> >> >> [spc]lucy:/tmp>
> >> >
> >> > Yes. ?Annoying, but understandable - without the .gz on there, how is
> >> > it to know what file to put the result in?
> >>
> >> *Shudder*
> >>
> >> Your acceptable peculiarity is my hated misfeature.
> >
> > ?gunzip will create a file based on the filename but without the ".gz"
> > extension. ?There are only a few choices I see for gunzip handing this:
> 
> What I expect, want and demand:
> 
> It unpacks to the name(s) of the file(s) [and folders] in the archive
> and leaves the original archive the fsck alone.
> 
> In my early Linux days, I was /very/ annoyed several times when Gunzip
> cheerfully *removed the archive I told it to unpack*. This is
> *absolutely* unacceptable to my mind.

  gzip (and gunzip) does not make an archive; it just compresses
(decompresses) a given file and that's all it does.  Given some files (and
this is a Color Computer simulator I'm working with here that was mentioned
in another recent thread):

[spc]lucy:/tmp/coco/src>ll
total 604
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  48079 Oct 30  2001 6809.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc    418 Oct 29  2001 build5.bat
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc    347 Oct 29  2001 build6.bat
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   7834 Oct 29  2001 cas2rom.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  16350 Oct 29  2001 casin.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  18878 Oct 29  2001 casout.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc 161718 Oct 29  2001 coco.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  14983 Oct 29  2001 disk.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  10003 Oct 29  2001 dskini.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  35476 Oct 29  2001 hardware.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  16514 Oct 29  2001 keyboard.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  16982 Oct 29  2001 keydata.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  76297 Oct 29  2001 port.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  14296 Oct 29  2001 portmask.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   1389 Oct 30  2001 readme.txt
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   9503 Oct 29  2001 retrieve.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  94834 Oct 29  2001 stack.asm
drwxr-xr-x  2 spc spc   4096 Oct 28  2001 ver13rd
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  18313 Oct 29  2001 vgacheck.asm
[spc]lucy:/tmp/coco/src>gzip *.asm
[spc]lucy:/tmp/coco/src>ll
total 156
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  8128 Oct 30  2001 6809.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   418 Oct 29  2001 build5.bat
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   347 Oct 29  2001 build6.bat
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  2328 Oct 29  2001 cas2rom.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  4958 Oct 29  2001 casin.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  5656 Oct 29  2001 casout.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc 37158 Oct 29  2001 coco.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  3380 Oct 29  2001 disk.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  3157 Oct 29  2001 dskini.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  8513 Oct 29  2001 hardware.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  3912 Oct 29  2001 keyboard.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  2555 Oct 29  2001 keydata.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc 17986 Oct 29  2001 port.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  1341 Oct 29  2001 portmask.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  1389 Oct 30  2001 readme.txt
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  2929 Oct 29  2001 retrieve.asm.gz
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  8061 Oct 29  2001 stack.asm.gz
drwxr-xr-x  2 spc spc  4096 Oct 28  2001 ver13rd
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  4348 Oct 29  2001 vgacheck.asm.gz
[spc]lucy:/tmp/coco/src>gunzip *.gz
[spc]lucy:/tmp/coco/src>ll
total 604
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  48079 Oct 30  2001 6809.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc    418 Oct 29  2001 build5.bat
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc    347 Oct 29  2001 build6.bat
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   7834 Oct 29  2001 cas2rom.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  16350 Oct 29  2001 casin.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  18878 Oct 29  2001 casout.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc 161718 Oct 29  2001 coco.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  14983 Oct 29  2001 disk.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  10003 Oct 29  2001 dskini.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  35476 Oct 29  2001 hardware.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  16514 Oct 29  2001 keyboard.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  16982 Oct 29  2001 keydata.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  76297 Oct 29  2001 port.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  14296 Oct 29  2001 portmask.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   1389 Oct 30  2001 readme.txt
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc   9503 Oct 29  2001 retrieve.asm
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  94834 Oct 29  2001 stack.asm
drwxr-xr-x  2 spc spc   4096 Oct 28  2001 ver13rd
-rw-r--r--  1 spc spc  18313 Oct 29  2001 vgacheck.asm
[spc]lucy:/tmp/coco/src>

  Okay, you can argue about whether it should leave the original around or
not, but as you can see, the timestamps are kept at least.  

  Archives (i.e., a collection of files) is the domain of tar (originally
"Tape ARchive").  tar and gzip are orthogonal to each other, and typically,
one makes a tar file, which is then compressed by gzip (or conversely, you
gunzip a .tar.gz file, then use tar to extract the files).  GNU tar
understands the gzip format and it can do the compression/uncompression in
addition to the archiving it does.  And in this case, tar *will* keep the
original around when you decompress/extract the files:

	tar xzvf sometarball.tar.gz

  In the past ten years, my use of gzip/gunzip has been very minimal and is
usually restricted to compressing huge text files (say, log files) for
transmission across the net.  Most of the time, I'm working with compressed
tar files and GNU tar can handle those without the use of gzip/gunzip.  

  Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the current
directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
(usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called foobar
that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory).  

  -spc (Now Windows, on the other hand, I find incomprehensible ... )

 


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:37:07 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:37:07 -0500
Subject: NetInfo, was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free
 - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <6E25DB10-D737-4702-8320-A7C53386229F@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <6E25DB10-D737-4702-8320-A7C53386229F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7FDC3.8040706@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 11:41 PM, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 12, 2011, at 7:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>>> It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X. Good
>>> riddance.
>>
>>
>> Is it really worse than NIS/YP (in fact NetInfo gives me the impression it was meant to supersede it?)
>
> It probably wouldn't have been a terrible idea if it had been used
like NIS/YP, i.e. mostly in a networked workgroup context. I think it's
terrible as a local machine config repository. Can't see the damned
forest for the abstraction.

There's no doubt that this was NetInfo's intended purpose. But 
"workgroups" and thin clients of the '90s barely got off the ground and 
declined in relevance while the "thick" desktop PC metastasised.

--Toby

>
> - Dave
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:40:07 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:40:07 -0500
Subject: NeXT =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_alles_-_Re=3A_NetInfo=2C_wa?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_Re=3A_Mac/Mac_Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk_Books?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_free_-_Melbourne?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 10:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/12/2011 07:34 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>> Hmm yes. The word 'netinfo' still strikes fear into the souls of
>>>> people who tried to configure stuff like NFS exports on early OS X
>>>> versions :S
>>>
>>> It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP. Apparently Netinfo had a
>>> hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just Would
>>> Not Let It Go for way too long.
>>
>> I always assumed it was Steve. Or, wild-ass guess: Tevanian?
>
> Yes, Avi Tevanian! I'm almost positive it was him.
>
>>> It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X. Good
>>> riddance.
>>
>> Is it really worse than NIS/YP (in fact NetInfo gives me the impression
>> it was meant to supersede it?)
>
> Nope, but it's just as bad.
>
> It wasn't meant to supersede it, though. It was written only for use in
> NeXTSTEP;


That doesn't mean it wasn't meant to supersede it :)

NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before it. 
Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations. It 
probably deserved to. Imagine if it had succeeded :)

--T


 > only later was it ported to other platforms, and only then (if
> memory serves) by a different company, not NeXT Computer.
>
> -Dave
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:40:47 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:40:47 -0500
Subject: NetInfo, was Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free
 - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE6C796.2020604@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com>
 <E754EEE4-8BC8-467C-AF07-0FE1E76F8162@gmail.com>
 <4EE6C796.2020604@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7FE9F.7050102@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 10:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/12/2011 07:26 PM, David Riley wrote:
>>> It was even a horrible pain back in NeXTSTEP. Apparently Netinfo had
>>> a hardcore devotee (I don't recall who it was) within Apple who just
>>> Would Not Let It Go for way too long.
>>>
>>> It was a bad idea in NeXTSTEP, and an even worse idea in OS X. Good
>>> riddance.
>>
>> I think my biggest problem with it was that it reminded me too much of
>> Windows' registry. There are apparently a lot of people who think
>> that's a good idea, too.
>
> Whew, that's a real head-shaker. To steal a phrase from my friend
> Jon...there are lots of people in this industry who would be better
> suited to making sure my burger is cooked thoroughly.

I tried to compose a reply, but had to give up. Incoherence begets 
incoherence. :)

--T

>
> -Dave
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:42:56 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:42:56 -0500
Subject: ODS-2, Re: Versioning files =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E0_la_VMS_-_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Re_=3A_U_nix_handles_file_extensions_=22ver?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?y_poorly=22__=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 10:05 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> At 7:31 PM -0500 12/12/11, Toby Thain wrote:
>> On 12/12/11 2:43 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> ...
>>> Perhaps it's just me, but I really quite /liked/ the VMS system:
>>> name.extension;version. Saved my bacon a few times, did file
>>> versioning. Given how cheap disk space is now, I'm saddened it's not
>>> made a comeback.
>>
>> It's not as if Unix doesn't offer sophisticated versioning systems -
>> and several flavours of versioning filesystems if you are so inclined.
>> I do not think it need be an overloading of filenames, though. Version
>> control has moved on significantly since 1980...
>
> I for one would love a proper versioning filesystem like the VMS ODS-2
> filesystem! It's one of the many reasons VMS is my favorite OS.

You could always implement it yourself under FUSE. But wouldn't you want 
some of the more advanced features of an industrial strength versioning 
system, sooner or later?

--T

>
> Zane
>
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:45:19 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:45:19 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFcrd_ueeZ3Vr6twvWmzAGx6+=P51Q+DNWo_6N-RcbhaQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69B7F.5090107@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFcrd_ueeZ3Vr6twvWmzAGx6+=P51Q+DNWo_6N-RcbhaQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7FFAF.6040604@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 9:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 13 December 2011 00:25, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>> On 12/12/11 9:40 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> On 12 December 2011 14:08, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>    wrote:
>>>> On 12/12/11 5:23 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>> On 12 December 2011 04:17, Alexander Schreiber<als at thangorodrim.de>
>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 04:59:48PM +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>>> On 8 December 2011 21:03, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com>
>>>>>>>   wrote:
>>>>>>>> On 12/07/2011 08:14 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I don't really understand why any techie dislikes it, TBH. It is
>>>>>>>>> /vastly/ easier than, say, learning to understand how Unix wildcards
>>>>>>>>> work, let alone regular expressions or something - both things which
>>>>>>>>> I've not yet mastered after more than 20y of effort.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>   UNIX shell wildcards?  A question mark matches any single character,
>>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>>> asterisk matches any number of any characters.  What's so tough about
>>>>>>>> that?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What is so tough is the way that the shell expands them, not the
>>>>>>> command. I am assured this is wonderfully useful for many people but
>>>>>>> for me it's a complete PITA. For instance, I frequently need to do
>>>>>>> things like:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> REN *.log *.old
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ... which works fine on DOS, Windows and most other OSs but doesn't
>>>>>>> work on Unix/Linux.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Wrong tool.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you want to do the above, use mmv:
>>>>>> mmv "*.log" "#1.old"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In general, because file extensions are a sort of grafted-on
>>>>>>> afterthought on Unix, I find it handles them very poorly, whereas they
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Unix actually doesn't give a damn about so-called file extensions. As
>>>>>> far as Unix cares, ".log", ".png", ".whatever" is just a part of the
>>>>>> filename. ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I know. It's not that, I have no problem with that. The thing is
>>>>> that in the<ironic>wonderful world of the Web</ironic>, extensions
>>>>> are once again part of the deal - stuff like .html and .jpg and .png
>>>>> and whatnot all suddenly become very significant, even if the server
>>>>> and client are both Unix machines.
>>>>
>>>> How does that show that representing extensions as part of a file name
>>>> string is problematic?
>>>>
>>>> Extensions have 2 functions in Unix:
>>>>   * aide-memoire for the user including a large set of conventions;
>>>>   * (later) compatibility with legacy systems.
>>>>
>>>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases. Can
>>>> you
>>>> give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very poorly"?
>>>> (Your
>>>> faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is neither about Unix
>>>> (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>>>
>>>> In the case of the web, browsers are supposed to pay attention to
>>>> Content-Type, not sniff by extension. (Yes, I know Apache can be
>>>> configured
>>>> to sniff extensions. Again, this works just fine with Unix'
>>>> representation.)
>>>>
>>>>> Plus, Unixes such as Mac OS X use extensions as important metadata, as
>>>>> must any Linux which interoperates with Windows - which is to say most
>>>>> of them. Extensions are important to LibreOffice and so on, for
>>>>> example.
>>>>
>>>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
>>>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
>>>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
>>>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
>>>> absent,
>>>> though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>>>
>>> They work inasmuch as you can give files a name with a dot in it and
>>> some text after the dot and it's a valid name.
>>
>> And this is wonderful. Do you really want filenames with multiple fields?!
>> Can you then imagine how you could use the powerful tools available on such
>> names, with equal ease? Such needless complication would be much harder to
>> implement and learn. Next you'll be saying we should write and store
>> documents in XML! ;-)
>
> Now let's not get carried away here! ;?)
>
>>> When I'm saying it handles it poorly is that, from the POV of the
>>> shell, it's just a filename, it contains no information. Files called
>>> something-dot-foo can't readily be handled separately from
>>> something-dot-bar.
>>
>> I think this thread started with mentions of the endless Unix-based
>> facilities for doing this.
>
> There are, yes, but they are, IME, *significantly* more complex to use
> (and therefore to learn to use) than DOS' or CMD.EXE's.

I'm still not sure why shell globbing is "significantly more complex" 
than DOS globbing (some would aver the contrary).

>
> Another issue is that they are not always very portable across
> different implementations of Unix, e.g. Linux versus Mac OS X.

Both have bash as the default shell; can't get more portable than that.

>
>>> In most modern Unix GUIs, you can sort by file type, grab all the
>>> JPEGs and move them to another folder, say - or even all the image
>>> files, all the JPEGs and PNGs and BMPs or whetever. In the shell,
>>> that's harder, requiring a serious understanding of the Unix wildcard
>>> mechanisms and possibly, as illustrated by some of the replies to my
>>> earlier post about log files, writing a short script.
>>>
>>> But that's OK. As it is on the Mac, use of the CLI is on the wane in
>>> modern Linux, too. I suspect many happy Ubuntu users can get by with
>>> never using the Terminal, except occasionally to copy-and-paste some
>>> command in from the web or from a support tech. And that's just fine
>>> and I think that the progression will continue.
>>>
>>> It might outrage or dismay the old hands, but progress often does.
>>>
>>> I suspect most Mac users barely know their machines have a shell and
>>> never, ever use it.
>>
>> That would be accurate, in my experience.
>
> That's good to know. Do you think it is a problem (or at least a
> shame) or that it's absolutely fine?

Works for my mother, my wife, and millions of other non-technical OS X 
users :)

>>
>>> If Ubuntu gets to that point as well, that will be
>>>
>>> just fine - so long as people can do what they want and need to do.
>>>
>> I think Linux needs to get to that point; I've argued so for at least 10
>> years. But I am not sure Ubuntu will be the vehicle.
>
> Well, perhaps not - but it's closer than anything else has ever come.

I haven't lost all hope. Sugar is probably the best Linux-based attempt 
I know of. Radical thinking is needed, in my opinion (and yeah, more 
radical than OS X, though the latter is highly usable).

>
> Well, except Android, I guess, but it's playing in a different game.
>

--Toby


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:46:50 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:46:50 -0500
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEvdqYEu_g8z8apLVPrY5NKHAFSaMzuAspvMtKjXKeXkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Ra9Cd-0002Ri-QN@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAEvVyqGkxbNGDY+bw_M3ZdegATcQx8Hc8sNCH2N1M3EAJ8c6Hg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE67743.4080108@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCEvdqYEu_g8z8apLVPrY5NKHAFSaMzuAspvMtKjXKeXkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8000A.5050708@telegraphics.com.au>

On 12/12/11 8:25 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 12 December 2011 21:50, Dave McGuire<mcguire at neurotica.com>  wrote:
>> On 12/12/2011 01:29 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I like learning old systems... (and remember how to mess about with RSTS
>>>
>>> is fun.  Ah, the real days of low security....)
>>
>>   Same here, and learning new things in general.  The day I stop learning,
>> and WANTING to learn, is the day I stop breathing.
>
> Ahh, but learning what?
>
> I am quite passionate about learning new languages. I speak a tiny
> smattering of half a dozen; I would like to get them all to fluency
> and add a few more. I am vaguely considering doing a degree in it.

That is highly admirable. I only speak one fluently, one half-assedly 
(Portuguese) and can fumble my way through READING (not speaking) some 
of its Latin siblings. On the other hand, my wife is perfectly fluent in 
three.

--T

>
> I would love to learn to surf, to snowboard, to hang-glide, to fly a
> helicopter, to play several musical instruments and many other things.
>
> It's the arcana of the next generation of Windows, or of this year's
> Linux desktop, that I am growing tired of.
>
>



From jws at jwsss.com  Tue Dec 13 19:47:42 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 17:47:42 -0800
Subject: gzip's behavior,
 was Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8003E.3040009@jwsss.com>



On 12/13/2011 5:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 07:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> What I expect, want and demand:
>>
>> It unpacks to the name(s) of the file(s) [and folders] in the archive
>> and leaves the original archive the fsck alone.
>>
>> In my early Linux days, I was /very/ annoyed several times when Gunzip
>> cheerfully *removed the archive I told it to unpack*. This is
>> *absolutely* unacceptable to my mind.
>
>   Why?  Because it differs from another tool that you may have been 
> accustomed to?  If that's why, be aware that gzip's user interface is 
> patterned after a tool that far predates pkzip/pkarc/arc/etc, and that 
> behavior has been the accepted one that has been considered logical 
> and good since the 1970s.
>
>   Also be advised that you didn't tell it to unpack an archive 
> (something gzip doesn't do), you told it to decompress a compressed 
> file.  Tar (say) doesn't remove a tar file after extracting its 
> contents, because...well, cheerfully removing the archive you told it 
> to unpack would be absolutely unacceptable.
>
>   Decompressing a compressed file is a whole different animal; you can 
> get things right back where they were (if you need to) with a single 
> command.  The only possible difference is the original user's 
> compression setting, and I respectfully submit that the loss of that 
> information isn't frequently a big deal.
>
>   File compression is something that you "do" to a single file.  
> Should "undoing" it result in two copies of the file, one with it 
> "done" and the other with it "undone"?  THAT seems ridiculous to me.
>
>             -Dave
>
Dave,
In applications where traceability is required keeping the original 
goods, and probably md5sums or sha256sums around to verify them is 
probably a necessity.  The complaint here seems to be something you get 
around once then remember it does this and deal with it.

We use tar gz for the reason that it does keep the original around, and 
also because tar will verify if you use the right incantation, so you 
don't have to gen up something to verify you have a package in a tar 
file installed as far having to extract and diff the results.

However we did have some number of issues getting a tool which creates 
SD card images (sorry, new tech, but old method) working so we not only 
did the verify with tar, but also had a tool which would do a full 
md5sum of all the files (not for traceability, but for diagnosing why 
the image was getting damaged).  It was  a big pain to do what tar does 
for you as far as verifying.

There are lots of things that the unix tools do, but if you use things 
for enough years you remember either the specific warts you don't like, 
or that they are there and look them up.  I have a blog I log all my 
gripes to so I don't have to google forever and have the notes for 
various tricks handy.
Jim


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 19:51:25 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:51:25 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 7:48 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 13 December 2011 17:18, Jochen Kunz<jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>  wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:12:53 +0100
>> Alexander Schreiber<als at thangorodrim.de>  wrote:
>>
>>>> Well. Thats why I say: Linux evolved from a free Unix clone for Unix
>>>> lovers into a bad Windows surrogate for M$ haters. ;-)
>>> Ah, I disagree. One certainly _can_ run whatever crap Ubuntu decides to
>>> call the default graphics interface today, but one doesn't _have_ to.
>> Sure, you can replace GNOME / KDE with twm...
>> But that is not what I am talking about. It's the way Linux even feels
>> from the command line. All too often shell scripts start with #!/bin/sh
>> where #!/bin/bash would fit better...
>
> But the default shell /is/ bash in almost every distro I've seen...?

Debian has bloody dash. Can't imagine the breakage that decision has 
caused. Certainly cost at least one of my projects a lot of hassle.

>
>> Mysterious "configuration
>> wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files,
>
> Not seen that.
>
>> poor
>> man-pages
>
> Also a problem on real commercial Unix sometimes.

Most Linux distros I've seen have very good man page sets. And even 
better: Texinfo!

(Yes, I proudly fly the Team Texinfo flag...)


>
>> , aliases like rm='rm -i' in the default .profile,
>
> Very good safety net for newbies.
>
>> locked out
>> root-accounts, so that you can't log into the machine even on the text
>> console to fix a broken X11 or NIS,
>
> Ditto, and a decent security measure too.
>
>> no real single user mode,
>
> A Debian issue not an Ubuntu one, no?

Just out of interest, what exactly comprises a "real single user mode"? 
I'm guessing that BSD (say, SunOS 4) is some kind of benchmark here?

--T

>
>>   ^C not
>> working at boot time, ...
>
> What would you have it do?
>
> Do remember that Ubuntu is "Linux for human beings" - for newbies and
> Windows users, *not* for Linux experts. There are *lots* of distros
> for them.
>
>



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 19:58:54 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:58:54 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org>
References: <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <9C3F89F6-4083-4015-8F6F-5FCE8FFBE2EB@gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011, at 8:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

>  Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the current
> directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
> (usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called foobar
> that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory).

YES.  I believe they're properly called "tarbombs", which is particularly apt.  A "tar tf <foo.tar> | xargs rm -rf" will clean it up, assuming the contents of the archive didn't blow away anything that was already there.

- Dave


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 20:05:55 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:05:55 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org>
References: <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE80483.9010203@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 08:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> GNU tar
> understands the gzip format and it can do the compression/uncompression in
> addition to the archiving it does.  And in this case, tar *will* keep the
> original around when you decompress/extract the files:
>
> 	tar xzvf sometarball.tar.gz

   To be pedantic here...tar itself doesn't understand gzip-compressed 
files at all, but in fact it spawns a gzip process from the standard 
gzip executable and pipes the data through it.  (It'll do the same with 
bzip2 if you use a 'j' instead of a 'z')

>    Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the current
> directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
> (usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called foobar
> that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory).

   Ugh, yes, that's infuriating.  It's the supreme mark of "clueless" on 
the part of the tar file creator.

>    -spc (Now Windows, on the other hand, I find incomprehensible ... )

   Same here!

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 20:08:13 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:08:13 -0500
Subject: NeXT =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_alles_-_Re=3A_NetInfo=2C_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?was_Re=3A_Mac/Mac_Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk_Boo?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ks_free_-_Melbourne?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com> <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE8050D.8010204@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 08:40 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before it.
> Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations. It
> probably deserved to. Imagine if it had succeeded :)

   Ugh.  It was never a server-grade OS, but it could possibly have been 
with multiprocessor support and some tuning of the VM system.  But then, 
NeXT never made any server-class hardware...there was never any chance 
of it competing with, say, Sun of the other-than-workstation variety.

   Porting software to NeXTSTEP was a cast-iron mofo.  I lost a lot of 
hair in those days.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 20:19:38 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:19:38 -0500
Subject: ODS-2, Re: Versioning files =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E0_la_VMS_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-_Re_=3A_U_nix_handles_file_extensions_=22?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?very_poorly=22__=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
 <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE807BA.5060802@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 08:42 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> I for one would love a proper versioning filesystem like the VMS ODS-2
>> filesystem! It's one of the many reasons VMS is my favorite OS.
>
> You could always implement it yourself under FUSE. But wouldn't you want
> some of the more advanced features of an industrial strength versioning
> system, sooner or later?

   Back In The Day(tm), Postgres (when it was called that) had a 
facility called the "Inversion file system".  It was a filesystem built 
atop the RDBMS.

   Postgres also had a facility called "time travel", in which you could 
specify within brackets a textual date/time spec (Postgres' original 
query language was not SQL) and it'd give you the results of your query 
as if it had been executed at that date and time.

   Powerful stuff.  I never tried to use them together, but it'd be 
interesting to see what such a combination would've been capable of.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 20:36:06 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:36:06 -0500
Subject: gzip's behavior,
 was Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EE8003E.3040009@jwsss.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com> <4EE8003E.3040009@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4EE80B96.1000900@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 08:47 PM, jim s wrote:
> In applications where traceability is required keeping the original
> goods, and probably md5sums or sha256sums around to verify them is
> probably a necessity. The complaint here seems to be something you get
> around once then remember it does this and deal with it.
>
> We use tar gz for the reason that it does keep the original around, and
> also because tar will verify if you use the right incantation, so you
> don't have to gen up something to verify you have a package in a tar
> file installed as far having to extract and diff the results.

   If the "preserve the original compressed file" behavior is required 
for some reason, all one need do is:

gunzip -c filename.gz > filename

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Tue Dec 13 20:42:17 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:42:17 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE6F5DD.30003@brouhaha.com> <4EE722EE.590.27F56E@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EE80D09.2050605@verizon.net>

On 12/13/2011 06:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Chuck Guzis wrote:
> > But ISIS *did* precede CP/M.
>
> I don't think that's the case, at least in terms of when they were 
> written.  As I understand it, Kildall tried to sell CP/M to Intel, and 
> Intel didn't buy it, apparently because Kildall didn't want to sell 
> them exclusive rights.  That resulted in the creation of ISIS as an 
> Intel exclusive.
>

I think you re hybridizing what happened with Intel and later with 
Microsoft.


> Possibly CP/M wasn't offered for sale to the public until after 
> shipments of ISIS started, but I don't really know the first ship 
> dates of either.
>

I saw v1.3 in 1975 down in Atlantic city (PCC).  ISIS was definately later.


Allison

> Eric
>
>



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 20:42:23 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:42:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112140242.VAA17293@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Most Linux distros I've seen have very good man page sets.  And even
> better: Texinfo!

The only advantage texinfo has over nroff -mandoc is slightly more
readable source code.

(And now that my trolling quota for the week is satisfied.... :)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 13 20:43:32 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:43:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 13,
 11 08:51:25 pm"
Message-ID: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>

> > But the default shell /is/ bash in almost every distro I've seen...?
> 
> Debian has bloody dash. Can't imagine the breakage that decision has 
> caused. Certainly cost at least one of my projects a lot of hassle.

I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh. On a new system
it's the first thing I install if it isn't there.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The world will end at 3 p.m. today, to be followed by a brief symposium. ---


From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 13 20:44:12 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:44:12 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <9C3F89F6-4083-4015-8F6F-5FCE8FFBE2EB@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 13, 11 08:58:54 pm"
Message-ID: <201112140244.pBE2iDOO014818@floodgap.com>

> >  Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the current
> > directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
> > (usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called foobar
> > that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory).
> 
> YES.

A thousand times YES. I always tar tvf a tarchive before I tar xf it.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Quote for the day: " -------------------------------------------------------


From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 13 20:46:36 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:46:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: NeXT [_ber alles - Re: NetInfo,
 wa][s Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books][ free -
 Melbourne]
In-Reply-To: <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 13,
 11 08:40:07 pm"
Message-ID: <201112140246.pBE2kaF4012404@floodgap.com>

> That doesn't mean it wasn't meant to supersede it :)
> 
> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before it. 
> Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations. It 
> probably deserved to. Imagine if it had succeeded :)

For one thing, we wouldn't have Macs anymore, just NeXT workstations.





Wait a minute ...

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- FORTUNE: You can overcome any obstacle. Try a steeplechase. ----------------


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 20:47:50 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:47:50 -0500 (EST)
Subject: NeXT =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_alles_-_Re=3A_NetInfo=2C_wa?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?s_Re=3A_Mac/Mac_Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk_Books?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?_free_-_Melbourne?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com>
 <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112140247.VAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before
> it.  Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations.

I doubt sweeping aside anything based on its being proprietary[%] was
part of the intent, especially since NeXTen included undocumented
hardware, notably the blitter, and NextStep included closed-source
components, notably the DPS server.

[%] Not _quite_ what you said, but your wording seems to indicate, to
    me, that this is what you intended.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 20:54:43 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:54:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EE7F654.1070407@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RaaPf-000J4SC@p850ug1>
 <201112140018.TAA15333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EE7F654.1070407@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112140254.VAA17446@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I once built a phase-shift oscillator [...]

>> I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never
>> actually got the round tuits for that.

> Perhaps an incandescent light bulb might help out there. =)

Perhaps.  But it requires enough current flowing in the feedback
divider to warm the bulb's filament significantly.  I'd rather avoid
dissipating that much power - not to mention that I'm not sure the
op-amp I was using was capable of it.

It also requires the bulb.  I have very few incandescent bulbs that are
neither mains-voltage bulbs designed for illumination nor embedded into
devices that (a) are not easy to extract them from and (b) are not
devices I'd want to rob for parts.  (Not that my lack of suitable parts
means there's anything inherently wrong with the technique, of course.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 21:14:39 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:14:39 -0500
Subject: NeXT =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_alles_-_Re=3A_NetInfo=2C_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?was_Re=3A_Mac/Mac_Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk_Boo?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ks_free_-_Melbourne?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE8050D.8010204@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com> <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE8050D.8010204@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8149F.8070004@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 9:08 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 08:40 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before it.
>> Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations. It
>> probably deserved to. Imagine if it had succeeded :)
>
> Ugh. It was never a server-grade OS, but it could possibly have been
> with multiprocessor support and some tuning of the VM system. But then,
> NeXT never made any server-class hardware...there was never any chance
> of it competing with, say, Sun of the other-than-workstation variety.

I meant workstations, of course.
--T

>
> Porting software to NeXTSTEP was a cast-iron mofo. I lost a lot of hair
> in those days.
>
> -Dave
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 21:16:27 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:16:27 -0500
Subject: ODS-2, Re: Versioning files =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E0_la_VMS_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-_Re_=3A_U_nix_handles_file_extensions_=22?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?very_poorly=22__=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE807BA.5060802@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
 <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au> <4EE807BA.5060802@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8150B.6000803@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 9:19 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 08:42 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> I for one would love a proper versioning filesystem like the VMS ODS-2
>>> filesystem! It's one of the many reasons VMS is my favorite OS.
>>
>> You could always implement it yourself under FUSE. But wouldn't you want
>> some of the more advanced features of an industrial strength versioning
>> system, sooner or later?
>
> Back In The Day(tm), Postgres (when it was called that) had a facility
> called the "Inversion file system". It was a filesystem built atop the
> RDBMS.

What did it do?

These days we have filesystems built on Subversion and other 
transactional systems, ZFS, etc, ad nauseam. A few years ago I looked up 
every paper and such that I could find about versioning file systems. I 
am sure there is much more today...

--T


>
> Postgres also had a facility called "time travel", in which you could
> specify within brackets a textual date/time spec (Postgres' original
> query language was not SQL) and it'd give you the results of your query
> as if it had been executed at that date and time.
>
> Powerful stuff. I never tried to use them together, but it'd be
> interesting to see what such a combination would've been capable of.
>
> -Dave
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 21:26:36 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:26:36 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140242.VAA17293@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112140242.VAA17293@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE8176C.5020304@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 9:42 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> Most Linux distros I've seen have very good man page sets.  And even
>> better: Texinfo!
>
> The only advantage texinfo has over nroff -mandoc is slightly more
> readable source code.

What, you don't like hyperlinks? :)

>
> (And now that my trolling quota for the week is satisfied.... :)
>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 21:31:31 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:31:31 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 9:43 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> But the default shell /is/ bash in almost every distro I've seen...?
>>
>> Debian has bloody dash. Can't imagine the breakage that decision has
>> caused. Certainly cost at least one of my projects a lot of hassle.
>
> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh. On a new system
> it's the first thing I install if it isn't there.
>

You're WEIRD. ;-)

But seriously: Did you gain this habit from 10.0 and 10.1?

--T




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 21:52:34 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:52:34 -0500
Subject: NeXT =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_alles_-_Re=3A_NetInfo=2C_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?was_Re=3A_Mac/Mac_Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk_Boo?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ks_free_-_Melbourne?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE8149F.8070004@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com> <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE8050D.8010204@neurotica.com> <4EE8149F.8070004@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE81D82.8070803@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 10:14 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before it.
>>> Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations. It
>>> probably deserved to. Imagine if it had succeeded :)
>>
>> Ugh. It was never a server-grade OS, but it could possibly have been
>> with multiprocessor support and some tuning of the VM system. But then,
>> NeXT never made any server-class hardware...there was never any chance
>> of it competing with, say, Sun of the other-than-workstation variety.
>
> I meant workstations, of course.

   Oh ok, gotcha.

   I really liked NeXTs as workstations.  Porting software to them 
sucked, but for general *use*, man, they were great.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 21:56:03 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:56:03 -0500
Subject: NeXT =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=FCber_alles_-_Re=3A_NetInfo=2C_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?was_Re=3A_Mac/Mac_Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk_Boo?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?ks_free_-_Melbourne?=
In-Reply-To: <201112140247.VAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1BE63F80-52B6-443C-B8DA-964F5E959F2D@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCEFuStG0vmGFuyYkcj1e_cQS7CqdoGY5vWxC+wi6pQ3Yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <68908883B9F34429A6F10C168E9E296A@dell8300>
 <1F8644BE-92DC-4D39-87B3-0BE55142583D@gmail.com>
 <4EE67C48.9000306@neurotica.com> <4EE69D7D.4080405@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE6C7F9.5090504@neurotica.com> <4EE7FE77.4000808@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112140247.VAA17353@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE81E53.8030109@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 9:47 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before
>> it.  Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations.
>
> I doubt sweeping aside anything based on its being proprietary[%] was
> part of the intent, especially since NeXTen included undocumented
> hardware, notably the blitter, and NextStep included closed-source
> components, notably the DPS server.

At the time, they were *all* proprietary! I am pretty sure Steve meant 
the NeXT to outrun, outcompute, outsexy the rest of the workstation market.

While other decisions may have been farsighted, his timing to have built 
the system on 68K fell right on the sunset of the CISC workstation's 
lifespan. I saw my first SPARCstation with megapixel monitor in 1989 
iirc. (And as previously on this list, OpenWindows/X11/NeWS; so perhaps 
NeXT was concretely influential, at least temporarily...)

--T

>
> [%] Not _quite_ what you said, but your wording seems to indicate, to
>      me, that this is what you intended.
>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 21:58:50 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:58:50 -0500
Subject: NeXT [_ber alles - Re: NetInfo,
 wa][s Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books][ free - Melbourne]
In-Reply-To: <201112140246.pBE2kaF4012404@floodgap.com>
References: <201112140246.pBE2kaF4012404@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EE81EFA.8000403@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 9:46 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> That doesn't mean it wasn't meant to supersede it :)
>>
>> NEXTSTEP and the NeXT workstation was "intended" to sweep all before it.
>> Including SunOS, Sun and other proprietary Unix workstations. It
>> probably deserved to. Imagine if it had succeeded :)
>
> For one thing, we wouldn't have Macs anymore, just NeXT workstations.
>
>
>
>
>
> Wait a minute ...
>



Maybe it suffered from "Lisa-Newton" syndrome.
http://cheerfulsw.com/2010/ipad-a-staggering-work-of-obvious/

--T


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Tue Dec 13 22:03:04 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:03:04 -0800
Subject: ODS-2, Re: Versioning files =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E0_la_VMS_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-_Re_=3A_U_nix_handles_file_extensions_=22?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?very_poorly=22__=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE8150B.6000803@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
 <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au> <4EE807BA.5060802@neurotica.com>
 <4EE8150B.6000803@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE81FF8.2080606@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/13/2011 7:16 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>
> These days we have filesystems built on Subversion and other 
> transactional systems, ZFS, etc, ad nauseam. A few years ago I looked 
> up every paper and such that I could find about versioning file 
> systems. I am sure there is much more today...
>
> --T

I did a quick search last night, but I wasn't able to find any (recent) 
versioning filesystems that are beyond the experimental/research stage.  
Are there any specific ones you know of that you'd trust your data to?

- Josh



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 13 22:04:46 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:04:46 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <8135945E-19F9-4638-9A29-B2903DBD811B@gmail.com>



On Dec 13, 2011, at 20:51, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:

> Most Linux distros I've seen have very good man page sets. And even better: Texinfo!
> 
> (Yes, I proudly fly the Team Texinfo flag...)

I mean, it's OK. I think I prefer well-written, concise man pages (like OpenBSD's, which are quite good.

- Dave


From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 13 22:12:54 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 20:12:54 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 13,
 11 10:31:31 pm"
Message-ID: <201112140412.pBE4Cs4p016254@floodgap.com>

> > I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh. On a new system
> > it's the first thing I install if it isn't there.
>
> You're WEIRD. ;-)
> But seriously: Did you gain this habit from 10.0 and 10.1?

No, I gained it from BSD/386. (After all, I'm a product of the University of
California.)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Careful with that Axe, Eugene. -- Pink Floyd -------------------------------


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Tue Dec 13 22:14:54 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:14:54 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
 <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.

> You're WEIRD. ;-)

Not to try to outweird anyone, but I have my own shell, a BSD csh with
substantial hackery, mostly a command-line editor.

But the answer to "Am I the only one who..." is "no", so there must be
someone else who carries around a private shell based on patches
applied to a widespread shell....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 22:17:05 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:17:05 -0500
Subject: ODS-2, Re: Versioning files =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E0_la_VMS_?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?-_Re_=3A_U_nix_handles_file_extensions_=22?=
 =?ISO-8859-1?Q?very_poorly=22__=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <4EE8150B.6000803@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
 <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au> <4EE807BA.5060802@neurotica.com>
 <4EE8150B.6000803@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE82341.3060700@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 10:16 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>> I for one would love a proper versioning filesystem like the VMS ODS-2
>>>> filesystem! It's one of the many reasons VMS is my favorite OS.
>>>
>>> You could always implement it yourself under FUSE. But wouldn't you want
>>> some of the more advanced features of an industrial strength versioning
>>> system, sooner or later?
>>
>> Back In The Day(tm), Postgres (when it was called that) had a facility
>> called the "Inversion file system". It was a filesystem built atop the
>> RDBMS.
>
> What did it do?

   I don't recall the details (this was twenty years ago), but it gave 
you basic "your files are in an RDBMS" functionality.  Something VMS 
people always sort of took for granted with RMS, at least to a degree. 
It was neat to mess with from a research standpoint.

> These days we have filesystems built on Subversion and other
> transactional systems, ZFS, etc, ad nauseam. A few years ago I looked up
> every paper and such that I could find about versioning file systems. I
> am sure there is much more today...

   Yes.  Filesystems really are "growing up".  I truly adore ZFS in 
particular.

   I've not tried a filesystem based on SVN.  Is it a FUSE layer or 
something?

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 22:49:44 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:49:44 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
 <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE82AE8.1090906@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 11:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
>>> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.
>
>> You're WEIRD. ;-)
>
> Not to try to outweird anyone, but I have my own shell, a BSD csh with
> substantial hackery, mostly a command-line editor.
>
> But the answer to "Am I the only one who..." is "no", so there must be
> someone else who carries around a private shell based on patches
> applied to a widespread shell....

   Hats off to you.  "These tools are inadequate, so I shall make my 
own."  Most excellent.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 22:54:58 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:54:58 -0500
Subject: well-written,
 concise man pages - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <8135945E-19F9-4638-9A29-B2903DBD811B@gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <8135945E-19F9-4638-9A29-B2903DBD811B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 11:04 PM, David Riley wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 13, 2011, at 20:51, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>
>> Most Linux distros I've seen have very good man page sets. And even better: Texinfo!
>>
>> (Yes, I proudly fly the Team Texinfo flag...)
>
> I mean, it's OK. I think I prefer well-written, concise man pages (like OpenBSD's, which are quite good.
>

That's odd. I thought you'd prefer turgid, rambling, incorrect crud! :)

But, programmers don't need to be able to write well*, according to some 
on this list. So be grateful for anything you get.

--T

* - E.W. Dijkstra, Peter Norvig, C.J. Date, and others have disagreed... 
in print. But what would they know! Bunch of effete WRITERS who never 
knew a day's work...

> - Dave
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 13 23:02:03 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:02:03 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
 <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE82DCB.3010400@telegraphics.com.au>

On 13/12/11 11:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
>>> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.
>
>> You're WEIRD. ;-)
>
> Not to try to outweird anyone, but I have my own shell, a BSD csh with
> substantial hackery, mostly a command-line editor.
>
> But the answer to "Am I the only one who..." is "no", so there must be
> someone else who carries around a private shell based on patches
> applied to a widespread shell....

I ... think you're the first I've heard of in recent decades.

That said, anyone on the list use scsh? http://www.scsh.net/

--T


>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>



From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Tue Dec 13 23:08:14 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:08:14 -0800
Subject: well-written,
 concise man pages - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <8135945E-19F9-4638-9A29-B2903DBD811B@gmail.com>
 <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE82F3E.4020701@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/13/2011 8:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 13/12/11 11:04 PM, David Riley wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Dec 13, 2011, at 20:51, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>>
>>> Most Linux distros I've seen have very good man page sets. And even 
>>> better: Texinfo!
>>>
>>> (Yes, I proudly fly the Team Texinfo flag...)
>>
>> I mean, it's OK. I think I prefer well-written, concise man pages 
>> (like OpenBSD's, which are quite good.
>>
>
> That's odd. I thought you'd prefer turgid, rambling, incorrect crud! :)

I just wish UNIX man pages were as well written and as all-encompassing 
as the online documentation available on my Lisp machine.  Basically 
three or four feet worth of the printed manual set available at a 
keypress (or mouse click) or two, thoroughly indexed and 
cross-referenced, viewable directly at the command prompt (even while in 
the middle of typing a command -- invaluable when you've forgotten how 
something works halfway through) from within the editor, or inside the 
Document Examiner, with hypertext, formatting, diagrams, etc... a lovely 
system and well ahead of its time.

- Josh




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 23:08:32 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:08:32 -0500
Subject: well-written,
 concise man pages - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <8135945E-19F9-4638-9A29-B2903DBD811B@gmail.com>
 <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE82F50.1040104@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 11:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> But, programmers don't need to be able to write well*, according to some
> on this list. So be grateful for anything you get.
>
> --T
>
> * - E.W. Dijkstra, Peter Norvig, C.J. Date, and others have disagreed...
> in print. But what would they know! Bunch of effete WRITERS who never
> knew a day's work...

   [falls over]

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 13 23:10:13 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:10:13 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE80D09.2050605@verizon.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>,
 <4EE65ABA.25389.22C3E02@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE6F5DD.30003@brouhaha.com> <4EE722EE.590.27F56E@cclist.sydex.com>
 <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com> <4EE80D09.2050605@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EE82FB5.1080707@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
 > Kildall tried to sell CP/M to Intel, and Intel didn't buy it,
 > apparently because Kildall didn't want to sell them exclusive
 > rights.  That resulted in the creation of ISIS as an Intel
 > exclusive.

allison wrote:
 > I think you re hybridizing what happened with Intel and later with 
Microsoft.

I don't think so.  AFAIK, Microsoft never had anything to do with PL/M.  
Certainly they had nothing to do with the creation of either ISIS or CP/M.

I wrote:
 > Possibly CP/M wasn't offered for sale to the public until after
 > shipments of ISIS started, but I don't really know the first
 > ship dates of either.

allison wrote:
 > I saw v1.3 in 1975 down in Atlantic city (PCC).  ISIS was definately 
later.

ISIS-II was later.  It is not clear that the original ISIS was later.  
ISIS ran on the MDS-800, and probably on the 8080-equipped Intellec 8/80 
before that.




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 13 23:19:19 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:19:19 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE82DCB.3010400@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
 <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EE82DCB.3010400@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE831D7.8040208@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 12:02 AM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.
>>
>>> You're WEIRD. ;-)
>>
>> Not to try to outweird anyone, but I have my own shell, a BSD csh with
>> substantial hackery, mostly a command-line editor.
>>
>> But the answer to "Am I the only one who..." is "no", so there must be
>> someone else who carries around a private shell based on patches
>> applied to a widespread shell....
>
> I ... think you're the first I've heard of in recent decades.
>
> That said, anyone on the list use scsh? http://www.scsh.net/

   [eyebrows shoot up]

   Oh MY!!

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Tue Dec 13 23:22:27 2011
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 06:22:27 +0100
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <m1RaaEi-000J4MC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaaEi-000J4MC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EE83293.308@bluewin.ch>


> So I'll happily read about differnt ways to design a particular circuit,
> or how to use machine tools, or OS internals. Or optical design, clock
> escapements, camera shtuter dseign. But I am not going to take up
> hang-gliding....

Out of personal experience I can only recommend that particular activity.
Beats flying in any plane hands down.
That kind of outdoor activity complements very good with techical thinkering, at least in
my experience.

Currently hacking Lilith's microcode so it uses  an IDE disk...

Jos


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec 13 23:26:42 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 21:26:42 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE80D09.2050605@verizon.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>, <4EE7D959.7000109@brouhaha.com>,
 <4EE80D09.2050605@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EE7C312.23110.162520@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Dec 2011 at 21:42, allison wrote:

> I saw v1.3 in 1975 down in Atlantic city (PCC).  ISIS was definately
> later.

If so, not much later.   Grab an ISIS-II floppy and take a look at 
the boot track--(C) 1975... Intel.    I wouldn't be surprised at all 
to discover that ISIS and CP/M were being developed somewhat 
simultaneously.  I was definitely using both (according to my disk 
collection) in 1976.  ISIS for work and CP/M for home--and parallel 
versions of the same program.

I definitely found ISIS more cumbersome to use than CP/M.  EVERTYHING 
was on disk with ISIS--even the DIR command.  Because of the way disk 
allocation works, fragmentation can become a real issue very quickly. 
 The command language was more clumsy-- COPY :F0: TO :F1:  for ISIS, 
but PIP B:=A:  for CP/M.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 14 00:08:12 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:08:12 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE82FB5.1080707@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>, <4EE80D09.2050605@verizon.net>,
 <4EE82FB5.1080707@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EE7CCCC.19156.3C23A1@cclist.sydex.com>

On 13 Dec 2011 at 21:10, Eric Smith wrote:

> ISIS-II was later.  It is not clear that the original ISIS was later. 
> ISIS ran on the MDS-800, and probably on the 8080-equipped Intellec
> 8/80 before that.

The Intellec boxes definitely ran ISIS. 

So, what was the first 8080 disk operating system?  I remember the 
guys at Diablo had put together in the early 70s a system that used 
one of the Diablo cartridge hard disks with an 8080.  They called it 
the "Merchant", but the Xerox acquisition was happening around then, 
so I'm not sure that it ever saw the production line.  The 
application language was supposed to be Diablo's own dialect of 
DIBOL.

I did use the assembler they wrote for the system, however (ported to 
run on our own OS).  I still have a listing of an assembly from it 
somewhere.

--Chuck


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 00:13:27 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 22:13:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE82DCB.3010400@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 14,
 11 00:02:03 am"
Message-ID: <201112140613.pBE6DRTH008758@floodgap.com>

> That said, anyone on the list use scsh? http://www.scsh.net/

I have used it before, briefly. Briefly, because it made my head hurt and
I've never been a Lisp dweeb, so I went back to tcsh. I'm sure the emacs
addicts here will go nuts for it, though.

I'm still waiting for a Prolog shell.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If guns are outlawed, what will we shoot liberals with? -- Sam Midkiff -----


From IanK at vulcan.com  Wed Dec 14 00:16:11 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 06:16:11 +0000
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE77EC1.4020006@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <CB0D7ECB.9DD1%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/13/11 8:35 AM, "Barry L. Kline" <blkline at attglobal.net> wrote:

>On 12/13/2011 09:29 AM, David Riley wrote:
>> Related: http://xkcd.com/214/
>
><me>Wipes coffee from computer screen</me>
>
>I'm starting to worry that the artist must have some malware monitoring
>my wikipedia habits.
>
>Barry

You are not alone.  What's really bad is when you do it with research
papers - start backtracking through the references section in what often
seems to be an endless recursion of ideas.  Not that I'm saying this is a
*bad* thing, just a very time consuming thing?.  I find that Wikipedia et
al. terminate much sooner than scientific literature.  -- Ian 




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Dec 14 01:05:10 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 02:05:10 -0500
Subject: Lilith hacking - Re: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE83293.308@bluewin.ch>
References: <m1RaaEi-000J4MC@p850ug1> <4EE83293.308@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <4EE84AA6.20306@telegraphics.com.au>

On 14/12/11 12:22 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote:
>
>> So I'll happily read about differnt ways to design a particular circuit,
>> or how to use machine tools, or OS internals. Or optical design, clock
>> escapements, camera shtuter dseign. But I am not going to take up
>> hang-gliding....
>
> Out of personal experience I can only recommend that particular activity.
> Beats flying in any plane hands down.
> That kind of outdoor activity complements very good with techical
> thinkering, at least in
> my experience.
>
> Currently hacking Lilith's microcode so it uses an IDE disk...

Oooh! Nice. Blog? Pictures?

--Toby


>
> Jos
>



From arcarlini at iee.org  Wed Dec 14 01:32:51 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 07:32:51 -0000
Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?RE:_Versioning_files_=E0_la_VMS_-_Re_:_U_nix_handles_file_?=
 =?iso-8859-1?Q?extensions_=22very_poorly=22__=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
Message-ID: <E96CBB8E0CB74F1EA092B8483BCFB91D@ANTONIOPC>

At 7:31 PM -0500 12/12/11, Toby Thain wrote:
> It's not as if Unix doesn't offer sophisticated versioning systems -
> and several flavours of versioning filesystems if you are so
> inclined. I do not think it need be an overloading of filenames,
> though. Version control has moved on significantly since 1980...

Automatically having multiple versions of a file isn't a substitue
for CVS/mercurial/git/whatever, it just makes it much easier to
recover from those "Oh no!" moments ...

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



From emu at e-bbes.com  Wed Dec 14 02:19:10 2011
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:19:10 +0100
Subject: CPU Wars card game
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGVRqNm63EMc219safSObVHDu0xe_uO3CmmkZQmsACfv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE7BB4C.8040001@update.uu.se>
 <CAHG8iGVRqNm63EMc219safSObVHDu0xe_uO3CmmkZQmsACfv=Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111214091910.lj8q7pa8sg00gckc@webmail.opentransfer.com>

Zitat von Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com>:

> On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 3:53 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>
>> Quite x86 centric, I think the J11 would fit pretty nicely in there. What
>> CPU would you add?
>>
>
> It does say "Battle of the Desktops"
Professional 380?




From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Wed Dec 14 04:18:23 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:18:23 +0100 (CET)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011, John Foust wrote:
> I assume you're not in the USA?  So when you buy the average LCD TV
> in Europe, does it not include the same threaded "F" connector for
> an RF input, that would be able to tune this "channel 3" (61.25 MHz)?

Except for satellite receivers, we don't use F connectors for TV (neither 
analog nor digital). Instead, we use IEC 169 connectors.
And the frequency for channel 3 depends from the country and broadcasting 
system. In Germany it's at 55.25 MHz (video), in France at 60,50 MHz.

Christian


From holm at freibergnet.de  Wed Dec 14 05:26:20 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:26:20 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <D469E0F463F84FE299125131961B3311@Pc12>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <7F8BB8859E0E4DD49B224B226A4F06F6@Pc12>
 <20111212072544.GG110@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <D469E0F463F84FE299125131961B3311@Pc12>
Message-ID: <20111214112620.GO9786@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

nierveze wrote:

> hello,yes you are right the processors are different,
> I have both of them
> here I found the source listing for odt for bk/dvk
> the differences are starting address and the fact that the bk  has a video
> integrated not a terminal console
> http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4113
> it will be easier to understand and modify in case of need
> alain


Ok, Thanks, thats very interresting!

There are many bootloaders in there, maybe I can use something...


Regards

Holm
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Monday, December 12, 2011 8:25 AM
> Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
> 
> 
> >Hmm, The BK0010 is using an K1801VM1 CPU that don't use this way of
> >adressless read to start up. This is only on the K1801VM2 and the K1806VM2
> >so far as I know...
> >I think the VM1 is doing the startup using the SEL1 Line, but I haven't
> >read that much about this processor.
> >But all of them have no ODT microcode, but an external ROM with the ODT
> >Debugger in them. For the VM2 the code is in the K1801RE2 on the DBK
> >Machines.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Holm
> >
> >nierveze wrote:
> >
> >>confimation
> >>I have just examined on a real BK0010 using Mirage the debugger
> >>the msbyte of the address 177716 is always 100 whatever you do (as I can
> >>see),the lsbyte varies but not the msbyte ,so the principle that the
> >>starting address of the processor is made od the msbyte of address
> >>177716+000 for lsbyte.100+000 gives an adress of 100000,type g100000 in 
> >>the
> >>debugger makes a good clean start of the machine.I think it is a register
> >>in the support circuit k1801BM1-014
> >>best regards
> >>a.n
> >>
> >>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>From: "nierveze" <nierveze at radio-astronomie.com>
> >>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> >>Sent: Saturday, December 10, 2011 11:26 AM
> >>Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
> >>address?
> >>
> >>
> >>>hello,the startup procedure of those processors is rather
> >>>sophisticated,here here is what I have found:
> >>>first it is for the k1801BM1 and BM2:
> >>>*at beginning if times everything is at zero....(DCLO,ACLO are low)
> >>>*when you apply power to the processor and the clock the clock starts
> >>>immediatly and the processor begins to count clock states also
> >>>*DCLO must be low for 5 ms at least ,during this time the processors
> >>>clears the registers,that contain random data at powerup,at the end if
> >>>this period internal INIT goes hight ,the processor begins to work
> >>>*ACLO should be low for 70 ms
> >>>*after there arre differences in the processors:
> >>>*the 1801BM1 find the msb of the pc  from address 177716(selected by
> >>>SEL1),the lsb of
> >>>the pc is filled with zeroes,this forms the starting address .Ths PSW is
> >>>filled with value 340.This addres is in the I/O page,maybe it can be
> >>>physically in a small rom,
> >>>a register bank ,or in support circuit???
> >>>*for the1801BM2 the msb of the pc from a non address register (maybe a
> >>>74ls 244 programmed by a bank of switches  as in the case of the
> >>>T11),selected by SEL ,the lsb is filled by zeros ,this fixes the 
> >>>starting
> >>>address in rom,the PSW is found at this addess +2
> >>>Here is what I have found ,my russian knowledge is maybe more
> >>>poor as hours:-)))
> >>>I have understood this from a file found on the site of Serguei 
> >>>Vakulenko
> >>>(vak.ru,page of projects)
> >>>You can find here also the pdf of the 1806 ,the successor of those
> >>>microprocessors that use  a similar startup procedure.
> >>>I was not able to understand where those registers are from schematics
> >>>of BK0010 or BK0011 because they use support chips whose docs I do not
> >>>have .
> >>>But the clock of those computers may be used with the timings for the
> >>>startup procedure.
> >>>Timing and reset circuits can be found in  'personal computers BK -0010
> >>>BK-0011 5/95 ' in the archives of BK
> >>>Can you please explain more precisely what you have done???
> >>>Thanks best regards
> >>>Alin Nierveze
> >>>
> >>>----- Original Message ----- 
> >>>From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> >>>To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> >>><cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >>>Sent: Friday, December 09, 2011 6:20 PM
> >>>Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
> >>>address?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>HI Devin,
> >>>>
> >>>>In the meantime I've found out whats going on there, I've put that CPU 
> >>>>on
> >>>>a testboard and applied power and clock.
> >>>>Nevertheless your links are very interesting, still have many threads 
> >>>>to
> >>>>read on those sites.
> >>>>
> >>>>Thanks,
> >>>>
> >>>>Holm
> >>>>
> >>>>Devin Monnens wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>Holm,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I asked one of my colleagues who is working on computer research in
> >>>>>Ukraine. He did not have a direct answer to your question, but 
> >>>>>provided
> >>>>>these sources to check for solutions to your problems:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4599 - look here
> >>>>>http://ramlamyammambam.livejournal.com/149983.html?format=light - ask
> >>>>>here or maybe here:
> >>>>>http://ru-radio-electr.livejournal.com/229706.html?thread=3609418&format=light#t3609418
> >>>>>- I know user suvorow_ as a good specialist.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>-Devin Monnens
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> ------------------------------
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Message: 14
> >>>>>> Date: Sat, 3 Dec 2011 16:44:24 +0100
> >>>>>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> >>>>>> To: cctech at classiccmp.org
> >>>>>> Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o 
> >>>>>> address?
> >>>>>> Message-ID: <20111203154424.GA56131 at pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
> >>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I want to play with a russian K1801BM2 CPU (K1801VM2).
> >>>>>> My russian from the school is very very rusty and so I have problems
> >>>>>> to
> >>>>>> understand what's going on with this CPU while startup.
> >>>>>> There is some "besadresnoe tschtanie", a read from the bus w/o
> >>>>>> sending out an address before w/o active SYNC.
> >>>>>> It is right, that this read is building the upper 8 bits from the
> >>>>>> start
> >>>>>> address in the rom area with Systemu Mode (Halt Mode) = 1?
> >>>>>> Can anyone please confirm this?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> BTW: how is this external register to be done in HW?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Does anyone know if there are schematics of SBCs existing w/o 
> >>>>>> special
> >>>>>> support ICs like The K1801VP1-55 or so?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Kind Regards and thanks in advance,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Holm
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >>>>>>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >>>>>>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>-- 
> >>>>>Devin Monnens
> >>>>>www.deserthat.com
> >>>>>
> >>>>>The sleep of Reason produces monsters.
> >>>>
> >>>>-- 
> >>>>     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >>>>    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> >>>> www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >>>>
> >>>
> >
> >-- 
> >     Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
> >    Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
> > www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> >

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From gyorpb at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 06:29:16 2011
From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:29:16 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8969C.6090902@gmail.com>

On 2011-12-14 3:43, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.

Nope: tcsh lover here, too.

.tsooJ


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 08:16:55 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 06:16:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8969C.6090902@gmail.com> from Joost van de Griek at "Dec 14,
 11 01:29:16 pm"
Message-ID: <201112141416.pBEEGtcH014870@floodgap.com>

> > I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.
> 
> Nope: tcsh lover here, too.

Oh good :)

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The only thing to fear is fearlessness -- R. E. M. -------------------------


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 08:18:33 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:18:33 -0500
Subject: well-written,
 concise man pages - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
 free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8011D.70602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <8135945E-19F9-4638-9A29-B2903DBD811B@gmail.com>
 <4EE82C22.2050109@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <1B1110C6-0EC6-497B-AF2B-803F829FA45B@gmail.com>


On Dec 13, 2011, at 11:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

>> I mean, it's OK. I think I prefer well-written, concise man pages (like OpenBSD's, which are quite good.
>> 
> 
> That's odd. I thought you'd prefer turgid, rambling, incorrect crud! :)

Well, that's how I feel about a lot of Texinfo docs (not usually incorrect, but the rest...)  There are cases when it's useful, e.g. describing all the operators in Bash.  What irritates me is when I'm directed to a Texinfo document for something that could have been done shorter in a man page if they had bothered to edit it down.

Just because all *my* writing is turgid, rambling and often incorrect, it doesn't mean it's what I'm looking for. :-)


- Dave




From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 08:19:02 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 06:19:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [RE: Versioning files _ la VMS - Re : U nix handles file
 ][extensions "very poorly" ?]
In-Reply-To: <E96CBB8E0CB74F1EA092B8483BCFB91D@ANTONIOPC> from
 "arcarlini@iee.org" at "Dec 14, 11 07:32:51 am"
Message-ID: <201112141419.pBEEJ2pO008908@floodgap.com>

> > It's not as if Unix doesn't offer sophisticated versioning systems -
> > and several flavours of versioning filesystems if you are so
> > inclined. I do not think it need be an overloading of filenames,
> > though. Version control has moved on significantly since 1980...
> 
> Automatically having multiple versions of a file isn't a substitue
> for CVS/mercurial/git/whatever, it just makes it much easier to
> recover from those "Oh no!" moments ...

I used to do version control with a strict technique of checkpoints and
aliases so I'd always keep a version trail. Cumbersome but portable.

However, now that I have had to become fluent in Mercurial to work with
Mozilla trees, I have to confess that I'm rather enamoured with it. It
seems to "click" with me in a way git does not.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Conscience makes egotists of us all. -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------


From ploopster at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 08:35:26 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 09:35:26 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8B42E.8090601@gmail.com>

Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> But the default shell /is/ bash in almost every distro I've seen...?
>>
>> Debian has bloody dash. Can't imagine the breakage that decision has
>> caused. Certainly cost at least one of my projects a lot of hassle.
>
> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh. On a new system
> it's the first thing I install if it isn't there.

I held out for quite some time, but I eventually switched to zsh.

Peace...  Sridhar


From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 14 08:44:07 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:44:07 -0600
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <201112141445.pBEEjNQu091928@billy.ezwind.net>

At 04:18 AM 12/14/2011, Christian Corti wrote:
>Except for satellite receivers, we don't use F connectors for TV (neither analog nor digital). Instead, we use IEC 169 connectors.
>And the frequency for channel 3 depends from the country and broadcasting system. In Germany it's at 55.25 MHz (video), in France at 60,50 MHz.

Yes, I understood the panoply of standards, and certainly the TV companies do, too.
It's perfectly possible they ship a TV that can handle the standards of a
few countries.  After all, the frequencies aren't that different, and
the decoding is largely done in software these days.  Inside your average
CD TV today are two boards, one the power supply, another whose chips
look pretty much like a PC motherboard.

- John



From gyorpb at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 09:53:09 2011
From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:53:09 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112141416.pBEEGtcH014870@floodgap.com>
References: <201112141416.pBEEGtcH014870@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8C665.7060507@gmail.com>

On 2011-12-14 15:16, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>>> I must be the last person on earth who uses and adores tcsh.
>>
>> Nope: tcsh lover here, too.
>
> Oh good :)

Cut my teeth on NetBSD and I don't like things that are different, so it 
stuck. (Used to be the standard shell on Mac OS X, I believe? Now I just 
change it when I encounter a fresh install.)

.tsooJ


From aek at bitsavers.org  Wed Dec 14 10:10:19 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:10:19 -0800
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
Message-ID: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>

http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm



From ggs at shiresoft.com  Wed Dec 14 10:21:12 2011
From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 08:21:12 -0800
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CD6780F0-E557-44D5-8B27-19CA7F9B3A84@shiresoft.com>

Very cool!

TTFN - Guy

On Dec 14, 2011, at 8:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm
> 




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 10:21:57 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:21:57 -0500
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <50EBED1E-AF09-4769-81E2-4B34F6A961E2@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm

Major congratulations!  Good to know that Google still knows what's important sometimes, too. :-)


- Dave




From COURYHOUSE at aol.com  Wed Dec 14 10:38:15 2011
From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:38:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: BBC News - Apple founding papers sold at auction for nearly $1.6m
Message-ID: <1f7df.300419ba.3c1a2af7@aol.com>

BBC News - Apple founding papers sold at auction for nearly $1.6m 

Apple's founding papers have been sold at auction for $1,594,500  (?1.03m). 
Sotheby's had estimated the three typed partnership agreements would sell 
for  between $100,000 and $150,000.

_http://bbc.in/rJJ3q5_ (http://bbc.in/rJJ3q5) 

Source: _http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16170953_ 
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-16170953) 
See if people  are clicking on this link: _http://bbc.in/rJJ3q5+_ 
(http://bbc.in/rJJ3q5+) 
Try the  _bitly.com_ (http://bitly.com/)   sidebar to see who is talking 
about a page on the web: _http://bitly.com/pages/sidebar_ 
(http://bitly.com/pages/sidebar)  



Thanks,

Ed Sharpe, Archivist for SMECC  

See the Museum's Web Site at _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 




From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 10:49:43 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 11:49:43 -0500
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CANij+dd5zmvrtLr5En9r-HLZHe32xYGW7GjsOWAjhtn5Pr25bQ@mail.gmail.com>

First order of business:

Give Al a raise.

--
Will


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 14 11:15:18 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:15:18 -0700
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dd5zmvrtLr5En9r-HLZHe32xYGW7GjsOWAjhtn5Pr25bQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
 <CANij+dd5zmvrtLr5En9r-HLZHe32xYGW7GjsOWAjhtn5Pr25bQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RasQI-0004hG-17@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CANij+dd5zmvrtLr5En9r-HLZHe32xYGW7GjsOWAjhtn5Pr25bQ at mail.gmail.com>,
    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:

> First order of business:
> 
> Give Al a raise.

I second that!
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 12:23:42 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:23:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Dec 14,
 11 08:10:19 am"
Message-ID: <201112141823.pBEINgwN008928@floodgap.com>

> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm

Excellent!

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Quote me as saying I was misquoted. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------


From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Wed Dec 14 12:51:58 2011
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 10:51:58 -0800
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <201112141051.58636.lbickley@bickleywest.com>

On Wednesday 14 December 2011, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm

Terrific news, Al.

Cheers,
Lyle

-- 
Lyle Bickley, AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"


From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Dec 14 13:11:54 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:11:54 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:48:15 +0000
Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> But the default shell /is/ bash in almost every distro I've seen...?
Yes. And that is the problem. /bin/sh should be a simple POSIX Bourne
shell. /bin/sh -> /bin/bash is an evil Linuxism.

> > Mysterious "configuration
> > wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files,
> Not seen that.
I get them all the time at "apt-get install" and the like on my Debian
box at work.

> > poor
> > man-pages
> Also a problem on real commercial Unix sometimes.
Seconded. But I wane nuke someone to hell if the man page contains
somthing like "Look in info(1) for the information you need."
Unfortunately info(1) is an evil GNUism and I find it quite unusable.
Similar for HTML-only documentation. Fortunately there are lynx(1) and
friends...

> > , aliases like rm='rm -i' in the default .profile,
> Very good safety net for newbies.
Pure idiot compatibility and very dangerous for newbies. They get used
to the -i behaviour and take it for normal. Until they get to a
properly configured machine...

> > locked out
> > root-accounts, so that you can't log into the machine even on the text
> > console to fix a broken X11 or NIS,
> Ditto, and a decent security measure too.
It would be acceptable as a security measure to restrict root login to
the local text console. This prevents "missuse" of the root account but
makes the system accessible in the event of a failure. If e.g. NIS
breaks you can't get into a Ubuntu machine to fix the problem. All you
can do in that situation is to hit the reset button and boot single
user. But that is an other story...

> > no real single user mode,
> A Debian issue not an Ubuntu one, no?
In 18 years of Unix I still have to see a proper implemented Linux
single user mode on any distribution. Single user mode is:
1. Execute kernel.
2. Kernel mounts / read-only.
3. Kernel creates /sbin/init process with PID 1.
4. init(8) invokes /bin/sh on /dev/console.
5. root prompt and _nothing_ more. Especially no mount of any file
systems other then /-read-only.

> >  ^C not
> > working at boot time, ...
> What would you have it do?
To interrupt e.g. dhclient(8) or ypbind(8) in case of a network
failure. ^C works perfectly on *BSD...
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From spc at conman.org  Wed Dec 14 13:16:17 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:16:17 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Jochen Kunz once stated:
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:48:15 +0000
> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Ditto, and a decent security measure too.
> It would be acceptable as a security measure to restrict root login to
> the local text console. This prevents "missuse" of the root account but
> makes the system accessible in the event of a failure. If e.g. NIS
> breaks you can't get into a Ubuntu machine to fix the problem. All you
> can do in that situation is to hit the reset button and boot single
> user. But that is an other story...

GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi

(while in vi)

:shell

Have fun.

  -spc (Has had to do that a few times on fresh Ubuntu installs)



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 14 13:21:44 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:21:44 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 02:11 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
>>> Mysterious "configuration
>>> wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files,
>> Not seen that.
> I get them all the time at "apt-get install" and the like on my Debian
> box at work.

   Then don't run Debian. ;)  I run Ubuntu (yes I know, Debian-based) 
and I've NEVER seen such a "wizard" pop up, in probably two hundred runs 
of "apt-get install".

>>> no real single user mode,
>> A Debian issue not an Ubuntu one, no?
> In 18 years of Unix I still have to see a proper implemented Linux
> single user mode on any distribution. Single user mode is:
> 1. Execute kernel.
> 2. Kernel mounts / read-only.
> 3. Kernel creates /sbin/init process with PID 1.
> 4. init(8) invokes /bin/sh on /dev/console.
> 5. root prompt and _nothing_ more. Especially no mount of any file
> systems other then /-read-only.

   Oh hell, SunOS4 (the BSD-based one!) doesn't even do that!  It mounts 
the filesystems before giving you a single-user shell.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 13:26:58 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:26:58 -0500
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
Message-ID: <85007F01-8505-43B7-AEDB-7F99F8F546A0@gmail.com>

Here's a rather esoteric question that I suspect at least one person may be able to answer better than the collective urban legendry found on Google.

I have a Mac LC475 (same machine as Quadra 605), and I'm looking to max out the memory.  None of Apple's tech notes mention anything about EDO memory, and people tend to generally think that it can handle it, but I've been bitten before.  Does anyone have a good idea about whether the memory controller can handle it?  Also whether it can actually take advantage of it?  My gut feeling is yes to the first and no to the second.

Secondly, does anyone have experience with Micro Memory Bank?  They seem to be offloading piles of newly-manufactured vintage-compatible (5V FPM and EDO) DIMMs and SIMMs on Ebay. The collective common wisdom for the LC475 is that 128MB SIMMs will work, but only if they're single-ranked.  The salespeople for the vendor don't seem to know what I'm talking about when I ask, and I'm having a hard time getting photos of the board from them (which should at least let me look at the traces).  Anyone know about their 128 MB EDO/FPM SIMMs?

Relevant auction number is 350478815002.

- Dave


From RichA at vulcan.com  Wed Dec 14 13:36:55 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:36:55 +0000
Subject: well-written, concise man pages
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D3C@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Josh Dersch
Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:08 PM

> I just wish UNIX man pages were as well written and as
> all-encompassing as the online documentation available on my
> Lisp machine.  Basically three or four feet worth of the
> printed manual set available at a keypress (or mouse click)
> or two, thoroughly indexed and cross-referenced, viewable
> directly at the command prompt (even while in the middle of
> typing a command -- invaluable when you've forgotten how
> something works halfway through) from within the editor, or
> inside the Document Examiner, with hypertext, formatting,
> diagrams, etc... a lovely system and well ahead of its time.

Yes, the Lisp Machines were, like the TOPS-20 operating system,
"a great improvement on [their] successors."


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 14 13:36:58 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:36:58 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE8FADA.40102@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 02:16 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>> It would be acceptable as a security measure to restrict root login to
>> the local text console. This prevents "missuse" of the root account but
>> makes the system accessible in the event of a failure. If e.g. NIS
>> breaks you can't get into a Ubuntu machine to fix the problem. All you
>> can do in that situation is to hit the reset button and boot single
>> user. But that is an other story...
>
> GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi
>
> (while in vi)
>
> :shell
>
> Have fun.
>
>    -spc (Has had to do that a few times on fresh Ubuntu installs)

   Urrr?

% sudo bash

   Much easier.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From RichA at vulcan.com  Wed Dec 14 13:43:29 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:43:29 +0000
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D64@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Al Kossow
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 8:10 AM

> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm

Congratulations, Al!


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 13:45:57 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:45:57 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <B8B781A7-0FCC-4F01-9116-DD97B670199A@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

> GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi
> 
> (while in vi)
> 
> :shell

What's wrong with "sudo bash", "sudo su" or even "sudo -s"?  Or does it lock those out?

- Dave





From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 13:47:51 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:47:51 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <3916FAD9-677B-45EE-B366-EA0C6342F2E9@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 2:21 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>> In 18 years of Unix I still have to see a proper implemented Linux
>> single user mode on any distribution. Single user mode is:
>> 1. Execute kernel.
>> 2. Kernel mounts / read-only.
>> 3. Kernel creates /sbin/init process with PID 1.
>> 4. init(8) invokes /bin/sh on /dev/console.
>> 5. root prompt and _nothing_ more. Especially no mount of any file
>> systems other then /-read-only.
> 
>  Oh hell, SunOS4 (the BSD-based one!) doesn't even do that!  It mounts the filesystems before giving you a single-user shell.

I mean, I've always just used "init=/bin/sh" as a kernel flag for the single-user boot.  It does all of that except for actually running /sbin/init.  You have to reboot to get back into multi-user mode, but that's a small price to pay.

- Dave




From RichA at vulcan.com  Wed Dec 14 13:49:39 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:49:39 +0000
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Sean Conner
Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:16 AM

> It was thus said that the Great Jochen Kunz once stated:

>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:48:15 +0000
>> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>> wrote:

>>> Ditto, and a decent security measure too.

>> It would be acceptable as a security measure to restrict root login to
>> the local text console. This prevents "missuse" of the root account but
>> makes the system accessible in the event of a failure. If e.g. NIS
>> breaks you can't get into a Ubuntu machine to fix the problem. All you
>> can do in that situation is to hit the reset button and boot single
>> user. But that is an other story...

> GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi

> (while in vi)

> :shell

> Have fun.

>   -spc (Has had to do that a few times on fresh Ubuntu installs)

That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple

    GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash

will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 14 14:13:26 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 12:13:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Christian Corti wrote:
> Except for satellite receivers, we don't use F connectors for TV (neither
> analog nor digital). Instead, we use IEC 169 connectors.
> And the frequency for channel 3 depends from the country and broadcasting
> system. In Germany it's at 55.25 MHz (video), in France at 60,50 MHz.

Very useful information

But, at the moment, all that we care about is whether we can cable from an
"RCA jack" and whether it can tune in the almost-NTSC USA "channel 3" put
out by the RF modulator in a Coco.

(I am assuming that info is correct.  Although I am hardware incompetent,
I never even connected to the RF output of my Cocos, nor the 5 pin DIN
of my TRS80s.)



From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Wed Dec 14 14:16:50 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:16:50 -0600
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>,
 <CAJfiPzwdQxKkPA=szuZH0EcYPyPmd=2U82E9Yx0Z8vqmvEBEuQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111208114038.S97768@shell.lmi.net> <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>

On 12/8/2011 2:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 8 Dec 2011 at 11:50, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> WYSIWYG and YAFIYGI both have their uses and benefits.
>> Nothing beats WYSIWYG for an amateur playing with fonts;
>> V "I KNOW what they look like.  I can get more DONE, putting in the
>> codes while working in text mode."
>
> There's still much to be said for handling things with WordStar.  My
> editor-of-choice on Linux is Joe.  The other day, I was given a mass
> of text that included tables that needed to be edited, replacing
> columns and duplicating others.  WordStar column mode to the rescue.
>
> WordStar was WYSIWYG until prop fonts came along.  I still have an
> add-on kit for WS 3.3 (CP/M) that allows for prop spaced fonts, even
> if they don't show on the screen.
>
> There were several early text-processing packages whose formatted
> output was very different from what was being displayed on the
> screen.  Troff wasn't even remotely the first.
>
> I find that music notation is very similar to text layout.  Actually,
> it compares more accurately to calligraphy.
>
> It wasn't all that long ago that most music scores were produced by
> copper plate engraving by hand.  And the result was some truly
> artistic work.  Even today, the troff-type Lilypond still struggles
> to match the quality of the old hand-engraved scores.  By the same
> token, I can identify a computer-produced score from the likes of
> Sibelius and Finale in a heartbeat.  There's no "flow" or "style" to
> the output.
>
> To see what I mean, take a look at the Lilypond essay:
>
> http://lilypond.org/web/about/automated-engraving/introduction
>
> That being said, setting a full orchestra score by text input into
> Lilypond is unbelievably onerous.  Most of the WYSIWYG "front end"
> packages to Lilypond have been abandonded or are buggy or awkward.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
I guess we're straying pretty far OT here, but I just couldn't resist 
responding since music is one of the other loves of my life.  Though I 
read music rather slowly and poorly, I was able to detect the monotonic 
spacing in the first examples before I scrolled down and read the rest. 
  I have a rather old copy of MusicTime I still use occasionally, and 
IIRC I can go back and adjust the horizontal note spacing as I please. 
I usually do that - for one thing to make the notes fit the words 
better, as most things I use it for have words.  I'm less sure about bar 
location and bar tilt - which I find very attractive in expressing the 
flow of the piece.

Mandatory computer related content: Software appearance matters - a lot!!!
(BTW, I agree that WordStar is still very useful at times.  I think mine 
is 4.0 and I use it under DOS or in a sorta-DOS window.)
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!

Freedom is in dire danger any time the US congress is in session...
Want to fix the post office? How about a "do not mail" list!



From ploopster at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 14:28:26 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:28:26 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE831D7.8040208@neurotica.com>
References: <201112140243.pBE2hWXR010940@floodgap.com>
 <4EE81893.8060502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112140414.XAA18328@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EE82DCB.3010400@telegraphics.com.au> <4EE831D7.8040208@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE906EA.7000504@gmail.com>

Dave McGuire wrote:
>> That said, anyone on the list use scsh? http://www.scsh.net/
>
> [eyebrows shoot up]
>
> Oh MY!!

Interesting!

Peace...  Sridhar


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 14 14:47:14 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:47:14 -0700
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>


In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
    Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:

> That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> 
>     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> 
> will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)

Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Wed Dec 14 14:53:24 2011
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:53:24 +0100
Subject: Lilith hacking - Re: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE84AA6.20306@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RaaEi-000J4MC@p850ug1> <4EE83293.308@bluewin.ch>
 <4EE84AA6.20306@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE90CC4.8010705@bluewin.ch>


>> Currently hacking Lilith's microcode so it uses an IDE disk...
>
> Oooh! Nice. Blog? Pictures?
>
Sorry, no blog, not enough spare cycles....
And  its anyhow a software only show for the moment.
( using a software model for both the Lilith and the IDE disk )
When it works then we can adapt the actual hardware.
Safer, and quicker.

             Jos


From spc at conman.org  Wed Dec 14 15:14:58 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:14:58 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <B8B781A7-0FCC-4F01-9116-DD97B670199A@gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <B8B781A7-0FCC-4F01-9116-DD97B670199A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111214211457.GC1343@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated:
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> 
> > GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi
> > 
> > (while in vi)
> > 
> > :shell
> 
> What's wrong with "sudo bash", "sudo su" or even "sudo -s"?  Or does it
> lock those out?

  I never tried, figuring that they just might lock those out.

  -spc


From spc at conman.org  Wed Dec 14 15:21:12 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:21:12 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> 
> In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
>     Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
> 
> > That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> > 
> >     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> > 
> > will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> 
> Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?

  Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]  

  -spc (sudo this, sudo that, sudo something else ... for more than one
	command, sudo is an annoyance ... )

[1]	It doesn't protect the system at *all*.  Or rather, to prevent shell
	access via sudo [2], you need to go to insane lengths in tightening
	down the system.  @#$@#$ that!  I'll su, thank you very much.

[2]	Because root shell access can cause a great amount of damage.  [3]

[3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Dec 14 15:25:34 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:25:34 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20111214222534.a5dfa404.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:16:17 -0500
Sean Conner <spc at conman.org> wrote:

> GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi
> 
> (while in vi)
> 
> :shell
As I said: I could not log in as normal user at all. The machine sat
there and refused _any_ login due to a borken NIS configuration. There
was no way to get into the machine. There wasn't even a way to perform
a clean shutdown. (ACPI powerbutton events didn't work etc.) Power
cycling and booting with "init=/bin/bash" due to the non-existing singe
user mode was the only way out of the deadlock.

Though: It was the machine and the borken NIS configuration of a
colleague. He asked for my help because he didn't know any way out
other then reinstall. (Typical Windows wimp. ;-) I got the problem
fixed within minutes, increaseing my reputation as a Linux Guru.
Hehehe. ;-)
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Wed Dec 14 15:29:36 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:29:36 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111214222936.a054ac3c.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:21:44 -0500
Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:

>    Oh hell, SunOS4 (the BSD-based one!) doesn't even do that!  It mounts 
> the filesystems before giving you a single-user shell.
Read-write or read-only? Because when you need to run fsck(8) you want
a read-only mount, or no mount at all.
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 15:33:20 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:33:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <85007F01-8505-43B7-AEDB-7F99F8F546A0@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 14, 11 02:26:58 pm"
Message-ID: <201112142133.pBELXKhI015534@floodgap.com>

> I have a Mac LC475 (same machine as Quadra 605), and I'm looking to max out
> the memory.  None of Apple's tech notes mention anything about EDO memory,
> and people tend to generally think that it can handle it, but I've been
> bitten before.  Does anyone have a good idea about whether the memory
> controller can handle it?  Also whether it can actually take advantage of
> it?  My gut feeling is yes to the first and no to the second.

I am pretty sure you are correct, and I *think* my Q605 actually does have
EDO in it, but I would have to check it (it's not easily accessible at the
moment after I retired it from active duty).

There is some dispute over total memory. LowEndMac, which I tend to believe
more, says that 128MB SIMMs have been used up to a maximum of 132MB. However,
it is known that double-banked 64MB SIMMs won't work, and I would be very
cautious about 128MB SIMMs. My unit has 32MB in it for a total of 36, which
is the stated maximum (and the maximum for the LCIII that preceded it, for
that matter) and the maximum that EveryMac says. So I'd be careful about
going higher or you may be buying duds.

The Q605 is an underappreciated gem, especially with a full '040. Mine ran
NetBSD exceptionally well until I merged its functions into the POWER6. Now
my only '040 left is the Mystic Color Classic.

I get my old RAM from MemoryX. They're not the cheapest, but I've never got
a bad one from them, and they're relatively local (Santa Clara Valley).

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- /etc/motd: /earth is 98% full. please delete anyone you can. ---------------


From bdwheele at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 14 15:32:01 2011
From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:32:01 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE915D1.4020008@indiana.edu>



On 12/14/2011 04:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
>> In article<539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
>>      Rich Alderson<RichA at vulcan.com>  writes:
>>
>>> That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
>>>
>>>      GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
>>>
>>> will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
>> Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
>    Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]
>
>    -spc (sudo this, sudo that, sudo something else ... for more than one
> 	command, sudo is an annoyance ... )
>
> [1]	It doesn't protect the system at *all*.  Or rather, to prevent shell
> 	access via sudo [2], you need to go to insane lengths in tightening
> 	down the system.  @#$@#$ that!  I'll su, thank you very much.
>
> [2]	Because root shell access can cause a great amount of damage.  [3]
>
> [3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
> 	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
> 	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?

We use a common root password on our machines but we don't want to give 
some of the people who do admin things on those machine the common 
password -- so we give them sudo access on the machines they need to do 
admin on and don't really restrict what they can do with it because we 
"trust" them :)

Brian



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 15:40:44 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:40:44 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <7054C367-6BBE-4DBE-A552-A0A6AFE58B6F@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
>> 
>> In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
>>    Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
>> 
>>> That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
>>> 
>>>    GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
>>> 
>>> will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
>> 
>> Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> 
>  Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]  

The point is so you don't do something stupid accidentally, like "chmod -R 666 /".  It's just a safety; it's not meant to lock people out of having root shells, it's just to prevent them from doing it routinely.  It's been useful to me in that respect, as it has prevented me from doing stupid things accidentally because I wasn't in a root shell.

It also has the alternate function of granting limited admin powers to non-superusers, but I would argue that anything other than a whitelist of commands is asking for trouble in that regard (and it's probably just not a great idea in general, given how many programs have doors out the side, like vi).

- Dave




From sttaylor at charter.net  Wed Dec 14 15:44:34 2011
From: sttaylor at charter.net (ST Taylor_Charter)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 13:44:34 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
Message-ID: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>

Any body know where I can find a PDF of the SC/MP Kit User's Manual or 
the Actual Manual
National Semiconductor Pub# 4200113A


SteveInSoCal



From spc at conman.org  Wed Dec 14 15:57:15 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:57:15 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <4EE915D1.4020008@indiana.edu>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org> <4EE915D1.4020008@indiana.edu>
Message-ID: <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Brian Wheeler once stated:
> 
> 
> On 12/14/2011 04:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> >It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> >>In article<539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> >>     Rich Alderson<RichA at vulcan.com>  writes:
> >>
> >>>That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> >>>
> >>>     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> >>>
> >>>will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> >>Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> >   Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> >better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> >commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> >of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]
> >
> >   -spc (sudo this, sudo that, sudo something else ... for more than one
> >	command, sudo is an annoyance ... )
> >
> >[1]	It doesn't protect the system at *all*.  Or rather, to prevent shell
> >	access via sudo [2], you need to go to insane lengths in tightening
> >	down the system.  @#$@#$ that!  I'll su, thank you very much.
> >
> >[2]	Because root shell access can cause a great amount of damage.  [3]
> >
> >[3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
> >	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
> >	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?
> 
> We use a common root password on our machines but we don't want to give 
> some of the people who do admin things on those machine the common 
> password -- so we give them sudo access on the machines they need to do 
> admin on and don't really restrict what they can do with it because we 
> "trust" them :)

  You don't trust some users with the root password, but you allow them a
root shell via sudo and trust them not to install back doors.  

  -spc (My head a splode ... )



From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Wed Dec 14 16:02:00 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:02:00 +0000
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE91CD8.9080401@philpem.me.uk>

On 14/12/11 21:21, Sean Conner wrote:
> [3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
> 	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
> 	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?

It makes it easier to administer the 'right to run commands as root' 
privilege:

* If all you have is 'su', you have to give the root password to 
everyone who needs to run commands as root. If that password changes, 
you now need to give it to all the other admins / root users.

* If the root password is compromised, you have to change it... and give 
the new one out again.

* The user doesn't need to remember two passwords (their logon password 
and the root password). Convenience factor.

* If a user only needs to run one command as root (say, mksquashfs) then 
you add that to 'sudoers' as an explicit-allow rule.

-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 14 16:03:48 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:03:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <201112142203.RAA01691@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> [3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but
> 	*not* to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users
> 	root access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?

With sudo, it's a lot easier to revoke one person's ability to do stuff
without needing to distribute a new password to everyone else, as
compared to traditional su.

Of course, that's not always of much value.  On a personal machine, on
a machine on which only a tiny number of people should ahve privileged
access of any sort, that doesn't matter so much.

And, yes, some uses of sudo _are_ supposed to prevent shell access by
some people while still allowing them to do certain other things.
Presumably such people aren't going to be running full-fleged vi (or
various other programs) through sudo, of course, because of exactly
this possibility.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 16:07:25 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:07:25 -0500
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <201112142133.pBELXKhI015534@floodgap.com>
References: <201112142133.pBELXKhI015534@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <D3D78102-61DE-4693-BECF-7883C3D3D51F@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 4:33 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> There is some dispute over total memory. LowEndMac, which I tend to believe
> more, says that 128MB SIMMs have been used up to a maximum of 132MB. However,
> it is known that double-banked 64MB SIMMs won't work, and I would be very
> cautious about 128MB SIMMs. My unit has 32MB in it for a total of 36, which
> is the stated maximum (and the maximum for the LCIII that preceded it, for
> that matter) and the maximum that EveryMac says. So I'd be careful about
> going higher or you may be buying duds.

Well, I gave it some thought.  You really can't do 128MB in a 72-pin SIMM without double-banking it; there are only 12 address lines on the SIMM, which gives you 24 bits of address space (16Mx32 = 64MB) per bank.  It may be that the 64MB double-banked ones don't work right because they'd need memory parts with a non-square array or some such; might be worth disassembling the ROM and seeing what the diagnostic is trying to do one of these days.

In any case, it's only $20 with free shipping on Ebay, so it's not a very expensive experiment.

> The Q605 is an underappreciated gem, especially with a full '040. Mine ran
> NetBSD exceptionally well until I merged its functions into the POWER6. Now
> my only '040 left is the Mystic Color Classic.

The LC475/Quadra 605 is probably my favorite machine from the '040 era (the SE/30 and IIsi vie for my '030 affections).  I wish I had one with a Q605 case, because I think it looks a bit nicer; as it is, the fellow who sold me his 475 very nicely included an ImageWriter II, but didn't bother to pack it very well.  ImageWriter IIs are HEAVY.  So the case is almost perfunctory at this point.  Always wanted to make a rackmount case for it some day... All the LCs (the normal ones, anyway) have a very similar form factor, so it's the sort of thing that would be useful across the line.

> I get my old RAM from MemoryX. They're not the cheapest, but I've never got
> a bad one from them, and they're relatively local (Santa Clara Valley).

The one on WeLoveMacs indicated for the Q605 is definitely a double-ranked one (look at the picture, which looks to be a picture of the actual item): http://www.welovemacs.com/apple-memory-performa-performa-578-128mb-72pin-mac-simm.html

I guess I'm not terribly worried about it.


- Dave





From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 14 16:29:21 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:29:21 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>,
 <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Dec 2011 at 14:16, Charlie Carothers wrote:

> I guess we're straying pretty far OT here, but I just couldn't resist
> responding since music is one of the other loves of my life.  Though I
> read music rather slowly and poorly, I was able to detect the
> monotonic spacing in the first examples before I scrolled down and
> read the rest. 

Not so far, IMOHO.  The subject of TeX was broached somewhere in this 
thread, IIRC, which brought up the comparison of composition problems 
in both music notation and text.  Text is easy when compared to music 
and it's such that handwritten music scores still abound even in new 
compositions.   It's also the case that writing a score by hand 
ttends to take less time than punching it into a computer, 
particularly if it's a complex one. 

I don't think that Knuth ever brought up the subject of musical 
notation, however.  If he has, it would make interesting reading.

Cheers,
Chuck





From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 15:42:51 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:42:51 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
In-Reply-To: <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org> from "Sean Conner" at
 Dec 13, 11 08:36:49 pm
Message-ID: <m1RawbG-000J4AC@p850ug1>

>   Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the curr=
> ent
> directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
> (usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called fooba=
> r
> that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory). =20

Actually, I prefer tarfiles that put their files in the current 
directory. I normalyl start by creating a suitable directory somewhere, 
copying the tarfile to it and extracting it. I don't want ot used up with 
my directory containing just hte tarfile and another diesctory that is 
the start of the tree for the files I've extracted. 

The safexst thing to do (and what I always do now) is to tar -tvf it 
first Then you can see what it's goign to do and act accordingly.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 15:22:28 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:22:28 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <1323821000.78770.YahooMailNeo@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> from
 "Al Hartman" at Dec 13, 11 04:03:20 pm
Message-ID: <m1RawHY-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> Listen fellows...
> 
> I worked for two of the major hardware/software suppliers for the Radio S=
> hack Color Computers. I have 10 of them in the next room, as well as a Ta=
> no Dragon 64k.
> 
> A stock Color Computer or Color Computer 2 has no Composite output. It on=

I don't think anybody disagrees with that. I certain;y don't. I've only 
seen the UK model of the CoCo2, which has a PAL-encoded modulated UHF 
output(on our channel 36), but still no composite output.

However, as you said in another message, it is very easy to modiy a CoCo1 
or CoCo 2 (which have essentialyl the same video circuit) to extract the 
compostie video signal. At the time this discussion started, the OP 
hadn't stated that he didn't want to modify his CoCo, and that he wasn't 
happy making things (in fact, I thought his original message said 'buy or 
build), so it was, IMHO, reasonable to suggest doing this. Of coure the 
OP ican do what he likes with his own machines.

> ly has an RF Modulator that tunes to channels 3 or 4 VHF (U.S. Models, I =
> have no experience with other versions).
> 
> You cannot GET a composite signal without cracking the case and soldering=
>  a few wires to a simple circuit to clean up the signal. Several companie=

My experience is that if uyou simply conenct the video input pin of the 
modualtor to a compostie TV-rate monitor (with no otehr circuitry), 
you'll get a useable picture. The cotnrast will be a bit low (it helps if 
you turn off the termination i tneh monitor to increas its input 
impedanec, reflections o nthe cable are not a problem for short cables) 
Addign the buffer is a good idea, of course.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 15:50:13 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:50:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112140254.VAA17446@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 13, 11 09:54:43 pm
Message-ID: <m1RawiP-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> >> I once built a phase-shift oscillator [...]
> 
> >> I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never
> >> actually got the round tuits for that.
> 
> > Perhaps an incandescent light bulb might help out there. =)
> 
> Perhaps.  But it requires enough current flowing in the feedback

Plese don't tell you you didn't get the reference.

> divider to warm the bulb's filament significantly.  I'd rather avoid
> dissipating that much power - not to mention that I'm not sure the
> op-amp I was using was capable of it.

There are some pretty low current light bulbs (such as ones that glow to 
their specified intenisty at 20ma (with 6V across them). You can drive 
thoee from most nroaml op-amps. I've got 6V 50mA wire-ended bulbs in my junk 
box, I suspect htey would be suitable too (you don't need it to be 
glowing that brightly.  

> It also requires the bulb.  I have very few incandescent bulbs that are

And the Op-amp, nd R's and C's, and a power supply and... If you are 
goign to order those, ording the ligth bulb is not a big problem. Of 
course you might have sall the other bits in your junk box, in whcih case 
it is a pain having to order just one part...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 15:54:01 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:54:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <4EE83293.308@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Dec 14,
 11 06:22:27 am
Message-ID: <m1Rawm6-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> > So I'll happily read about differnt ways to design a particular circuit,
> > or how to use machine tools, or OS internals. Or optical design, clock
> > escapements, camera shtuter dseign. But I am not going to take up
> > hang-gliding....
> 
> Out of personal experience I can only recommend that particular activity.
> Beats flying in any plane hands down.

Did I say I wanted to fly in a plane either :-)

More seriously, if yuo enjoy it, great. I am not goign to be the one to 
tell you you shouldn't. But equally, I know the sort fo things I enjoy, 
and hang gliding would nt be among them,

> That kind of outdoor activity complements very good with techical thinkering, at least in
> my experience.
> 
> Currently hacking Lilith's microcode so it uses  an IDE disk...

O nthe other hand, that sounds very enjoyable...

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 15:30:59 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:30:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112140018.TAA15333@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 13, 11 07:18:05 pm
Message-ID: <m1RawPp-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> >>> [Solderless breadboards] encourage 'fiddle until it seems to work'
> >>> designing,
> >> That's not what I'm talking about.  [...]
> > My apologies.  Actually, I didn;'t think you would do something like
> > that...
> 
> I have done it, actually, though I think without the "no real
> understanding of why" part.  For example, I once built a phase-shift
> oscillator out of three RC phase-shift stages and an op-amp.  But I
> wanted something as close as feasible to a sine wave.  So I put a
> variable resistor in the op-amp fedback, to control the gain.  Then I
> fiddled with that.  Crank the gain up and I got a severely clipped
> waveform; crank it down and it wouldn't oscillate (neither of which was
> surprising in the least).  I fiddled with it until I found a setting
> that made the amplitude just barely grow, growing until it just barely
> clipped, at which point it stabilized.  (It grew fairly slowly; it took
> multiple seconds to reach the point of clipping and stabilizing.)
> Finding the exact resistor value theoretically would have required
> knowing precise values for the components in the R-C network, the other
> resistor in the op-amp feedback, loading from parasitic capacitance
> (actually, the frequency - something in the audio range, I think - was
> low enough that one might have been ignorable), etc.

I feele this is actually a poor deisgn, in that the gain from the op-amp
(and thus the exact value of the resistor you are tweking) that you need
depends on Wein bridge network components how well balanaced they are, for
example). 

It may work on the breadboard while you're watching it, but it could 
drift one way or the other with temperature changes, etc. It's not 
somethign I'd do in anything I wxpected to keep on working.
 
> I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, but never
> actually got the round tuits for that.

The normal trick is a light bulb (or a suitable vacuum-encased 
thermistor) to act as a non-linear element. IIRC mo purely linear system 
can produce stable oscillations (any small change will either cause said 
oscilaltiosn to colalpse to zero or to grow ithout limit (or more 
practically untyil the signal hits the supply rails). 

I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain research 
student.

> 
> It fits the "fiddle until it seems to work" words you used, but I don't
> think it's the kind of design-without-understanding you appear to have
> meant to be (correctly, IMO) castigating.

It is and it isn't. You certainly knew what uou were doing annd why 
(settign the gai nof the amplifier correctly yto just compensate for the 
loss in the RC network), but for the reasons given aboove, I don't think 
this a good design practice.

For simialr reasons I am wary about the uses of resistor and capacitor 
substitution boxes 9essentially boxes  with all the prefered values of 
R's or C's in them with switches to seleect them). The have 'proper' uses 
(e.g. to see how a circuit's behaviour is canged when a componnet is 
varied, they have an 'improper' use ('Lets fiddle with this component and 
see if we can get it to work). But then all tools can be misused.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 16:00:03 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:00:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112141445.pBEEjNQu091928@billy.ezwind.net> from "John Foust"
 at Dec 14, 11 08:44:07 am
Message-ID: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1>

> Yes, I understood the panoply of standards, and certainly the TV companies do, too.
> It's perfectly possible they ship a TV that can handle the standards of a
> few countries.  After all, the frequencies aren't that different, and
> the decoding is largely done in software these days.  Inside your average
> CD TV today are two boards, one the power supply, another whose chips
> look pretty much like a PC motherboard.

Indeed.

Amazingly the service manual for our LCD TV doesn't contain a schematic 
of the PSU board (it's unclear why not, one page says for 'safety reasosn 
the pSU must not be field-repaired', another page says that the PSU is a 
bought-in module, and no schematics are available), but you are expected 
to repair the signal PCB to component levbel armed only with a schematic 
(no real signal information is given). And IIRC at least one of the ICs 
is a BGA pacakge. Not fun...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 15:33:33 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:33:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112140045.TAA15630@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 13, 11 07:45:06 pm
Message-ID: <m1RawSG-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> > Now for colour. It is a quirk of the uman eye that you can get the
> > visual effect of any paritcular colour by seeing the appropriate
> > amounts of red, green, and blue light.
> 
> This is only approximately true.  There are two reasons it's only

Actually, quite a bit of what I wrote was a simplification :-)

> approximate.

I think you're right. However, most, if not all, video monitors mix red, 
green and blue light for each pixel, so you need essentially 3 signals to 
control the intensities of those.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 14 16:31:50 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:31:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 14,
 11 12:13:26 pm
Message-ID: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>

> But, at the moment, all that we care about is whether we can cable from an
> "RCA jack" and whether it can tune in the almost-NTSC USA "channel 3" put
> out by the RF modulator in a Coco.

We don't actually know what version of the CoCo 2 the OP has/ We're 
assuming it's the US version. There was a version sold over here (UK) with 
PAL encoded video and a UHF modulator on channel 36 (I forget the 
carrier frequency). There may well be other national versions though (it 
wouldn't suprise me at all if a PAL versio nwitha Aa VHF modualtor was made).

The CoCo 3 was never sold over here, but according to the service manual 
there was an Australian version with PAL encoded video (but a VHF 
modulator). This machine hs a composite output of coruse.

AFAIK from reading hte manuals, the US CoCOs have a VHF modulator 
switchable (esternal swithc on the rear of the machine) to channel 3 or 
4.. The outptu is an RCA phone socket. 


> (I am assuming that info is correct.  Although I am hardware incompetent,
> I never even connected to the RF output of my Cocos, nor the 5 pin DIN
> of my TRS80s.)

If you made no conenction to the RF output socket of a CoCo or the 5 pin 
DIN vidoe ouptu (composite video and +5V) of a model 1, how ever did you 
vieww the output of these machines?

-tony


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 14 17:07:09 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:07:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20111214150548.X48542@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Sean Conner wrote:
>  run a @#$@ shell,
How does @#$@ shell compare with the others being discussed?







From glen.slick at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 17:40:12 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 15:40:12 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011 2:06 PM, "ST Taylor_Charter" <sttaylor at charter.net> wrote:
>
> Any body know where I can find a PDF of the SC/MP Kit User's Manual or
the Actual Manual
> National Semiconductor Pub# 4200113A
>

I have a physical copy of the SC/MP Kit Users Manual, Publication Number
4200113A, March 1976. If no one has this scanned I could put scanning it on
my todo list. It's less than 40 pages total.

I also have a copy of the SC/MP-II Microprocessor Retrofit Kit Users
Manual,  Publication Number 420305365-001A, January 1977, which is about 20
pages.


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 17:49:16 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:49:16 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote:

> AFAIK from reading hte manuals, the US CoCOs have a VHF modulator 
> switchable (esternal swithc on the rear of the machine) to channel 3 or 
> 4.. The outptu is an RCA phone socket. 

This was pretty common practice over here in the '80s; Most game consoles, computers which could connect over RF and VCRs had a choice of channel 3 or 4.  The RCA jack usually cabled to a coupling box with an F-connector input and output to pass the other signals through; my experience was that they did a rather poor job of spectral isolation, though, so channel 3 would leak into channel 4 a lot.  I suppose the switch was in case you had local broadcasts occurring on channel 3 or 4, which we certainly didn't in Baltimore; anyone know the story behind that?

I also recall that the VCR made a much better modulator than the one built into most game consoles (the ones that had composite output, anyway), interestingly enough.

Our VHF channels go from 2 to 13 (I don't remember the story behind why channel 1 is missing) and UHF covers 4 to... 68?  Most of time the 3 major networks ran on VHF, because it reached further; we always had a harder time receiving the UHF channels at home when I was growing up.

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 17:49:50 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:49:50 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214150548.X48542@shell.lmi.net>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <20111214150548.X48542@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <E99DFF04-05F6-4CDD-A480-1581D83F30A6@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 6:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Sean Conner wrote:
>> run a @#$@ shell,
> How does @#$@ shell compare with the others being discussed?

I don't know, but it seems to have rather few reserved characters.


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Wed Dec 14 17:50:10 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:50:10 -0700
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214150548.X48542@shell.lmi.net>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <20111214150548.X48542@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE93632.6060003@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/14/2011 4:07 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Sean Conner wrote:
>>   run a @#$@ shell,
> How does @#$@ shell compare with the others being discussed?
>
>

" /dev/NULL is stdin"




From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:05:57 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:05:57 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111214211457.GC1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <B8B781A7-0FCC-4F01-9116-DD97B670199A@gmail.com>
 <20111214211457.GC1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20111215000557.GA20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 04:14:58PM -0500, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated:
> > On Dec 14, 2011, at 2:16 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> > 
> > > GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi
> > > 
> > > (while in vi)
> > > 
> > > :shell
> > 
> > What's wrong with "sudo bash", "sudo su" or even "sudo -s"?  Or does it
> > lock those out?
> 
>   I never tried, figuring that they just might lock those out.

They don't, at least not in the default config.

At looks like they want to simply but up a noticeable, but not hard barrier
before the inexperienced user takes careful aim at his foot ;-)

And yes, I've known (clueless about Unix, obviously) people who used
root as their normal user account. And boasted about it "I'm so awesome!1".

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:12:32 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:12:32 +0100
Subject: ODS-2, Re: Versioning =?utf-8?Q?files_?= =?utf-8?Q?=C3=A0_l?=
 =?utf-8?Q?a?= VMS - Re : U nix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"  ?
In-Reply-To: <4EE81FF8.2080606@mail.msu.edu>
References: <CAMTenCE5oaNxyBx1KHEFaCNX3VXyLBEk170Jqev0KiFJ4h0w4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W276A055E179B68E1A143AC9BC0@phx.gbl>
 <F43ABB87-4611-4D9F-81F1-8ACA238D99BB@shiresoft.com>
 <CAMTenCEaQG7WLtniuD+7NN_HJ4mUZFY8N5whfBoWdUSWA1QVXg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE69CE5.5080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <p06240828cb0c71298bef@[192.168.1.157]>
 <4EE7FF20.8080508@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE807BA.5060802@neurotica.com>
 <4EE8150B.6000803@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE81FF8.2080606@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111215001232.GC20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 08:03:04PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 12/13/2011 7:16 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> >
> >
> >These days we have filesystems built on Subversion and other
> >transactional systems, ZFS, etc, ad nauseam. A few years ago I
> >looked up every paper and such that I could find about versioning
> >file systems. I am sure there is much more today...
> >
> >--T
> 
> I did a quick search last night, but I wasn't able to find any
> (recent) versioning filesystems that are beyond the
> experimental/research stage.  Are there any specific ones you know
> of that you'd trust your data to?

I didn't look into versioning filesystems, but a simple solution would be
to put your working directory/$HOME in git and run the relevant add/commit
commands from time to time, maybe even from cron. That would give you not
only versioned files, but other neat things like atomic commit ($DIRECTORY
in it's entirety as of $DATE), branches ...

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 14 18:21:57 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:21:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111214154553.D48542@shell.lmi.net>

> > (I am assuming that info is correct.  Although I am hardware incompetent,
> > I never even connected to the RF output of my Cocos, nor the 5 pin DIN
> > of my TRS80s.)

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
> If you made no conenction to the RF output socket of a CoCo or the 5 pin
> DIN vidoe ouptu (composite video and +5V) of a model 1, how ever did you
> vieww the output of these machines?

When I bought my first TRS80, it was available for $600 with monitor and
cassette, or $400 without monitor nor cassette.  The store manager, in
spite of it being the first one that had come in, was willing to commit
that if I were to be unsuccessful, then I could but the monitor by itself
for $200 (I would still be short the cassette (another $50)).  I had a
Sony 11" TV/monitor (same as sold for use with both CV and AV series
VTRs), with UHF connectors, a "Honda" connector, and both UHF and VHF
knobs broken off - I have no idea whether the tuner in it worked.

In both cases, I WAITED UNTIL I GOT HOME before I opened the computer
case.   (I'm not a hardware person)

Then I connected clip leads from where I thought the composite video was
to a composite monitor.  Once I confirmed that there was, indeed, usable
composite there, I drilled a hole, and soldered in an RCA jack.
Therefore, the original CONNECTORS (but not the signals nor case) were
virgin when I eventually parted with the machines.


Later, Joe Garner (Elcompco) used my machine for testing the prototypes of
his mod board for reverse video (controlled by port 254)

Later, I was given another TRS80, WITH the stock monitor.  There was an
aweful lot of empty space where the tuner would have been in that RCA
based TV turned monitor.  (One of THAT model RCA TVs was appropriately in
the background on Al Bundy's kitchen counter)  So, I cut a large
rectangular hole in the front of the monitor case and mounted a full
height 5.25" (Tandon TM100-1) drive and power supply to the right of the
CRT.  I added some mu-metal (sp?)  around it.


But the MOST important modification that I made to my model I was putting
some nut-serts into the base and bolting the CPU and EI (and an outlet
strip) to a piece of plywood so that the cable didn't flex (and a small
notch in the front of the EI for the CPU power cord without excess cables
flopping around)   I never got around to mounting a DB25 and solidly
mounting the RS232 (_RADIO_ _SHACK_ 232).

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:08:39 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:08:39 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
References: <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111215000839.GB20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 02:21:44PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/14/2011 02:11 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> >>>Mysterious "configuration
> >>>wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files,
> >>Not seen that.
> >I get them all the time at "apt-get install" and the like on my Debian
> >box at work.
> 
>   Then don't run Debian. ;)  I run Ubuntu (yes I know, Debian-based)
> and I've NEVER seen such a "wizard" pop up, in probably two hundred
> runs of "apt-get install".

Neither have I in probably 10 years of running Debian. You get prompted
by the occasional config frontend that drops a basic configuration on
install time depending on your choices (standard example: postfix, there
are a couple of reasonable defaults), but obviously one later wades in
with vi(m) and adjusts them appropriately.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 14 18:29:25 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:29:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org> <4EE915D1.4020008@indiana.edu>
 <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <201112150029.TAA03628@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> You don't trust some users with the root password, but you allow them
> a root shell via sudo and trust them not to install back doors.

> -spc (My head a splode ... )

Yes.  Trust is not a single-dimensioned thing.

The set of users trusted to be non-malicious is quite often very far
from the same set as the set of users trusted to not make disastrous
mistakes by accident when handed a full-powered root shell.  sudo used
as described (in text I cut) is entirely appropriate for those who are
in the former set but not the latter set.  (Well, to the extent that
sudo is appropriate for anything at all; after trying to install it at
work, I don't really consider it so.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:17:27 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:17:27 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112140244.pBE2iDOO014818@floodgap.com>
References: <9C3F89F6-4083-4015-8F6F-5FCE8FFBE2EB@gmail.com>
 <201112140244.pBE2iDOO014818@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <20111215001727.GD20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Tue, Dec 13, 2011 at 06:44:12PM -0800, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> > >  Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the current
> > > directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
> > > (usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called foobar
> > > that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory).
> > 
> > YES.
> 
> A thousand times YES. I always tar tvf a tarchive before I tar xf it.

Amen, brother.

Because while most people get it right, there are the occasional idiots
who fuck it up. And beware of the blue air you'll be causing because
you didn't check before blindly untarring ...

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:18:58 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:18:58 +0100
Subject: learning burnout
In-Reply-To: <CB0D7ECB.9DD1%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <4EE77EC1.4020006@attglobal.net>
 <CB0D7ECB.9DD1%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <20111215001858.GE20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 06:16:11AM +0000, Ian King wrote:
> On 12/13/11 8:35 AM, "Barry L. Kline" <blkline at attglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> >On 12/13/2011 09:29 AM, David Riley wrote:
> >> Related: http://xkcd.com/214/
> >
> ><me>Wipes coffee from computer screen</me>
> >
> >I'm starting to worry that the artist must have some malware monitoring
> >my wikipedia habits.
> >
> >Barry
> 
> You are not alone.  What's really bad is when you do it with research
> papers - start backtracking through the references section in what often
> seems to be an endless recursion of ideas.  Not that I'm saying this is a
> *bad* thing, just a very time consuming thing?.  I find that Wikipedia et
> al. terminate much sooner than scientific literature.  -- Ian 

Only if you make the canonical mistake of following only the wikipedia
links. If you do it right and actually go to the cited references you'll
easily find enough to keep you busy for whoever long you want. ;-)

HTH,
   Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From shumaker at att.net  Wed Dec 14 18:33:25 2011
From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:33:25 -0800
Subject: shipping options for Columbus OH
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EE94055.5040007@att.net>

HELP!   I'm now (or at least soon to be) the proud owner of 2! HP 2100S 
computers.    The units are part of a govliquidation lot in Columbus 
OH.    The question for this august group is simple:  It appears that 
both Fast Track Logistics and Craters and Freighters are available at 
the location.   I'm seeking opinions and experience with these two 
shippers in shipping vintage equipment (or other options for Columbus if 
anyone has one).  I've seen occasional mentions on here in the past and 
would welcome opinions and experiences as info for making a decision.

thanks

steve


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:27:12 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:27:12 +0100
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <20111215002711.GG20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 07:49:39PM +0000, Rich Alderson wrote:
> From: Sean Conner
> Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:16 AM
> 
> > It was thus said that the Great Jochen Kunz once stated:
> 
> >> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011 00:48:15 +0000
> >> Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>> wrote:
> 
> >>> Ditto, and a decent security measure too.
> 
> >> It would be acceptable as a security measure to restrict root login to
> >> the local text console. This prevents "missuse" of the root account but
> >> makes the system accessible in the event of a failure. If e.g. NIS
> >> breaks you can't get into a Ubuntu machine to fix the problem. All you
> >> can do in that situation is to hit the reset button and boot single
> >> user. But that is an other story...
> 
> > GenericUbuntuNonRootUserPrompt% sudo vi
> 
> > (while in vi)
> 
> > :shell
> 
> > Have fun.
> 
> >   -spc (Has had to do that a few times on fresh Ubuntu installs)
> 
> That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> 
>     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash

Too much typing: "sudo -s" ;-)

Kind regards,
          Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:23:12 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:23:12 +0100
Subject: CHM Digital Repository Grant Press Release
In-Reply-To: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EE8CA6B.2040004@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <20111215002312.GF20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 08:10:19AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/computer-history-museum-receives-googleorg-grant-for-digital-repository-1598242.htm

Yes!

Very good to see that.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 14 18:39:18 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:39:18 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RawiP-000J4BC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RawiP-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112150039.TAA03776@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>>> I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, [...]
>>> Perhaps an incandescent light bulb might help out there. =)
>> Perhaps.
> Plese don't tell you you didn't get the reference.

Okay.

>> But it requires enough current flowing in the feedback divider to
>> warm the bulb's filament significantly.  I'd rather avoid
>> dissipating that much power - not to mention that I'm not sure the
>> op-amp I was using was capable of it.
> There are some pretty low current light bulbs (such as ones that glow
> to their specified intenisty at 20ma (with 6V across them).

120 mW is more power than the whole circuit was drawing, I think (this
was quite a while ago).

>> It also requires the bulb.  I have very few incandescent bulbs [...]
> And the Op-amp, nd R's and C's, and a power supply and...

True.

> If you are goign to order those, ording the ligth bulb is not a big
> problem.  Of course you might have sall the other bits in your junk
> box, in whcih case it is a pain having to order just one part...

Yes, I already had all the other parts.

I wouldn't, though, call my parts stock a "junk box"; that conjures up
images of a container with an unsorted mishmash of salvaged parts all
dumped in it together, and most of my parts are not salvaged scrap and
are not all jumbled together.  I do have _some_ salvaged parts, but
with only a few exceptions they are kept together with any new
instances I have of the same part.  And most parts are kept well
sorted, but there are some exceptions; for example, my LED stock is all
kept in the same drawer, and, except for about five values which I
bought a thousand each of which I keep in their own drawers, my
resistors are sorted by power rating (with ?W and above kept separate
from <?W), then floor(log(value)) ("third band colour"), but not sorted
beyond that.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From chris at mainecoon.com  Wed Dec 14 18:40:40 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:40:40 -0800
Subject: What became of US Channel One (was: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?)
In-Reply-To: <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5A064889-BC31-4128-9F99-96AA53A7AEA4@mainecoon.com>


On 14 Dec 2011, at 3:49 PM, David Riley wrote:

> Our VHF channels go from 2 to 13 (I don't remember the story behind why channel 1 is missing) and UHF covers 4 to... 68?  Most of time the 3 major networks ran on VHF, because it reached further; we always had a harder time receiving the UHF channels at home when I was growing up.

The original (1938 - 1940) allocation was 18 channels with channel one at 44-50MHz and 19 at 288-294MHz.  Channel 19 vanished in the 1940-1946 allocation with the remaining frequencies shifting around; channels 14 and up vanished in the 1946-1948 allocation (which again saw frequencies juggled about).  In the '46-'48 period things started to go sideways; the existing channels (save for channel six) were shared with fixed and land mobile services; to mitigate interference the  FCC had depended on VHF frequencies not propagating over the horizon but in practice they did so readily; in addition responding to pressure for more stations the FCC had reduced the separation distance between stations to 80 miles.   In May 1949 the FCC ruled that television could no longer share frequencies with fixed and mobile services and that the 72 to 76 MHz band could be used only for fixed radio services, all of which lead to the issue of where the mobile services could go -- which ended up being one of the existing television channels.  

While the television industry was none to thrilled to lose a channel they felt that 12 clear channels were preferable to 12 shared channels.  The ARRL had actually proposed that channel two be dropped so that the second harmonic of the 28-29.7MHz amateur band wouldn't cause interference, but the industry elected to ditch channel one because FCC regs held that channel one could only be used for community service with a 1KW restriction while other channels were permitted 50KW.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:33:19 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:33:19 +0100
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20111215003318.GH20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 04:21:12PM -0500, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> > 
> > In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> >     Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
> > 
> > > That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> > > 
> > >     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> > > 
> > > will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> > 
> > Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> 
>   Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]  

To put up a conscious barrier before being handed a loaded shotgun that
helpfully already points at your foot and has the safety disabled ;-)

Also, in true multiuser environments, to limit who is allowed to destroy the
system when - not if - he fucks up. For instance, for corporate workstations
you might grant everybody in the team/group login access, but only the
official "owner" and the workstation support team gets root access via sudo.

Kind regards,
          Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:35:49 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:35:49 +0100
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE915D1.4020008@indiana.edu>
 <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20111215003549.GI20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 04:57:15PM -0500, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Brian Wheeler once stated:
> > 
> > 
> > On 12/14/2011 04:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> > >It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> > >>In article<539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> > >>     Rich Alderson<RichA at vulcan.com>  writes:
> > >>
> > >>>That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> > >>>
> > >>>     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> > >>>
> > >>>will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> > >>Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> > >   Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> > >better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> > >commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> > >of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]
> > >
> > >   -spc (sudo this, sudo that, sudo something else ... for more than one
> > >	command, sudo is an annoyance ... )
> > >
> > >[1]	It doesn't protect the system at *all*.  Or rather, to prevent shell
> > >	access via sudo [2], you need to go to insane lengths in tightening
> > >	down the system.  @#$@#$ that!  I'll su, thank you very much.
> > >
> > >[2]	Because root shell access can cause a great amount of damage.  [3]
> > >
> > >[3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
> > >	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
> > >	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?
> > 
> > We use a common root password on our machines but we don't want to give 
> > some of the people who do admin things on those machine the common 
> > password -- so we give them sudo access on the machines they need to do 
> > admin on and don't really restrict what they can do with it because we 
> > "trust" them :)
> 
>   You don't trust some users with the root password, but you allow them a
> root shell via sudo and trust them not to install back doors.  

Makes perfect sense. If you are afraid of them installing backdoors,
you shouldn't grant them _any_ shell access to the system at all.

The "common" root password probably is also used for machines those guys
are not supposed to have root on.

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 14 18:47:03 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:47:03 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111214162504.K48542@shell.lmi.net>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, David Riley wrote:
> This was pretty common practice over here in the '80s; Most game
> consoles, computers which could connect over RF and VCRs had a choice of
> channel 3 or 4.  The RCA jack usually cabled to a coupling box with an
> F-connector input and output to pass the other signals through; my
> experience was that they did a rather poor job of spectral isolation,
> though, so channel 3 would leak into channel 4 a lot.  I suppose the
> switch was in case you had local broadcasts occurring on channel 3 or 4,
> which we certainly didn't in Baltimore; anyone know the story behind
> that?

DC had a chennel 4, didn't they?
Some areas have a channel 3.
The switch was so that you could use whichever was clear[er] in your area.

In addition, damn near everything came with a crappy inline switch box,
that served as a balun (sp?), as well as let you leave your connectors
hooked up and switch your TV back and forth between your antenna and
Coco/game/etc.   Just connecting your Coco in parallel with the antenna on
the TV made it easier for your neighbors and FCC to see your signals.

> I also recall that the VCR made a much better modulator than the one
> built into most game consoles (the ones that had composite output,
> anyway), interestingly enough.

In those days VCRs ALSO had better tuners than TVs did.  You could
sometimes receive some stations better by tuning them with the VCR, and
then RE-broadcasting from the VCR to the TV (on channel 3)

> Our VHF channels go from 2 to 13 (I don't remember the story behind why
> channel 1 is missing) and UHF covers 4 to... 68?
14 to 83

> Most of time the 3 major networks ran on VHF, because it reached
> further; we always had a harder time receiving the UHF channels at home
> when I was growing up.
"premium" over the air.  UHF was where you would find PBS, and 'B'-level
stations.   Half a century ago, UHF on a TV was OPTIONAL, and added almost
$50 to a $100 B&W Philco 17" "portable".  My brother and I were fed up
with my father's thrift store [almost working] TVs, and bought a new one;
my father chipped in the money to add UHF.  I remember watching Kennedy's
Cuban missile crisis speeches on it, and my father saying, "The son of a
bitch has gotten us into war." - and the traffic on Massachesetts Avenue
("embassy row") was bad all night for a week.

In the 1970s, there was one very popular UHF RF modulator ("SupRMod"??) on
channel 34?, but KICU was (is?) on 36, and there was some deranged
speed-freak preacher dude on 38? 24 hours a day.    THAT RF mod'lator was
probably responsible for the standardizatioon on a 4 pin on Berg, with one
pin out as a key, on Apple][ and eventually on CGA.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 18:47:07 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:47:07 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddGcDXgGhasSBKOssK1zjzKVa6u23f2Uygz8MGdEVUZ3g@mail.gmail.com>

> Our VHF channels go from 2 to 13 (I don't remember the story behind why channel 1 is missing)

It was reallocated to another service (I think mobile FM), as were
many bands right after World War 2.

--
Will


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:40:21 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:40:21 +0100
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <7054C367-6BBE-4DBE-A552-A0A6AFE58B6F@gmail.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <7054C367-6BBE-4DBE-A552-A0A6AFE58B6F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111215004021.GJ20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 04:40:44PM -0500, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> 
> > It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> >> 
> >> In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> >>    Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
> >> 
> >>> That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> >>> 
> >>>    GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> >>> 
> >>> will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> >> 
> >> Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> > 
> >  Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> > better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> > commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> > of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]  
> 
> The point is so you don't do something stupid accidentally, like "chmod -R
> 666 /".  It's just a safety; it's not meant to lock people out of having root
> shells, it's just to prevent them from doing it routinely.  It's been useful
> to me in that respect, as it has prevented me from doing stupid things
> accidentally because I wasn't in a root shell.
> 
> It also has the alternate function of granting limited admin powers to
> non-superusers, but I would argue that anything other than a whitelist of
> commands is asking for trouble in that regard (and it's probably just not a
> great idea in general, given how many programs have doors out the side, like
> vi).

It depends. For instance on workstations you might grant the official
user of the machine unlimited sudo access, using it just as a conscious
barrier: "cross this line and you can _really_ break stuff". Backstop
that with a standard configuration management system (like cfengine) to
keep the machine automagically within the standard setup.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Wed Dec 14 18:42:22 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:42:22 +0100
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <201112142203.RAA01691@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112142203.RAA01691@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111215004222.GK20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 05:03:48PM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> > [3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but
> > 	*not* to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users
> > 	root access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?
> 
> With sudo, it's a lot easier to revoke one person's ability to do stuff
> without needing to distribute a new password to everyone else, as
> compared to traditional su.
> 
> Of course, that's not always of much value.  On a personal machine, on
> a machine on which only a tiny number of people should ahve privileged
> access of any sort, that doesn't matter so much.
> 
> And, yes, some uses of sudo _are_ supposed to prevent shell access by
> some people while still allowing them to do certain other things.
> Presumably such people aren't going to be running full-fleged vi (or
> various other programs) through sudo, of course, because of exactly
> this possibility.

Well, if you want to use sudo to allow people _some_ privileged actions
while keeping them away from unlimited root, you _really_ have to very
carefully audit what you give them access to. The shell escape in the
editor being an eternal classic ;-)

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From sttaylor at charter.net  Wed Dec 14 18:54:45 2011
From: sttaylor at charter.net (ST Taylor_Charter)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:54:45 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
Message-ID: <4EE94555.9020908@charter.net>

Thanks for the offer Glen.
I didn't know about the retrofit kit Doc.
If nothing shows up, would you add the second Doc to the "todo list"

SteveInSoCal

------------------------------------------------------------------------

> I have a physical copy of the SC/MP Kit Users Manual, Publication Number
> 4200113A, March 1976. If no one has this scanned I could put scanning it on
> my todo list. It's less than 40 pages total.
>
> I also have a copy of the SC/MP-II Microprocessor Retrofit Kit Users
> Manual,  Publication Number 420305365-001A, January 1977, which is about 20
> pages.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/14/2011 1:44 PM, ST Taylor_Charter wrote:
> Any body know where I can find a PDF of the SC/MP Kit User's Manual or 
> the Actual Manual
> National Semiconductor Pub# 4200113A
>
>
> SteveInSoCal
>



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 14 19:14:23 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:14:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RawPp-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RawPp-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>>>> 'fiddle until it seems to work' designing,
>>>> That's not what I'm talking about.  [...]
>>> [...], I didn;'t think you would do something like that...
>> I have done it, actually, though I think without the "no real
>> understanding of why" part.  For example, [...manually tweaking gain
>> until an RC phase-shift oscillator just barely oscillates...]
> I feele this is actually a poor deisgn, in that the gain from the
> op-amp (and thus the exact value of the resistor you are tweking)
> that you need depends on Wein bridge network components how well
> balanaced they are, for example).

Exactly why I used a variable resistor there.  I don't see how this
makes it a poor design.

> It may work on the breadboard while you're watching it, but it could
> drift one way or the other with temperature changes, etc.  It's not
> somethign I'd do in anything I wxpected to keep on working.

Ah.  It's a poor design under certain assumptions about its intended
(anticipated, whatever) use.

Yes, it is.  Fortunately, the kind of use you appear to be assuming was
not the kind of use I put it to.  Indeed, it would almost be fair to
say I didn't put it to _any_ use per se; it was not done because I
needed an oscillator for some other use, but rather was done as an
experiment, to see if I understood RC phase-shift oscillators well
enough to toss one together and have it work.  As such, it did a good
job in its intended use: because of it, I (think I) have a
significantly better handle on the benefits and problems of such things
than I did before I built and played with it.  (I doubtless could have
even better knowledge if I'd muddled about with it and its kin more.
If I seemed likely to need such knowledge, I would; what I did has, for
now at least, satisfied the desire that led me to do it.)

> IIRC mo purely linear system can produce stable oscillations (any
> small change will either cause said oscilaltiosn to colalpse to zero
> or to grow ithout limit (or more practically untyil the signal hits
> the supply rails).

On the one hand, that feels right.

On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
running class A).

> I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain research
> student.

Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 19:24:49 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 17:24:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <D3D78102-61DE-4693-BECF-7883C3D3D51F@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 14, 11 05:07:25 pm"
Message-ID: <201112150124.pBF1Onmq017248@floodgap.com>

> In any case, it's only $20 with free shipping on Ebay, so it's not a very
> expensive experiment.

I'd like to hear how (if?) it works, because more RAM in mine may make it
a good candidate for other tasks.

> The LC475/Quadra 605 is probably my favorite machine from the '040 era (the
> SE/30 and IIsi vie for my '030 affections).  I wish I had one with a Q605
> case, because I think it looks a bit nicer; as it is, the fellow who sold me
> his 475 very nicely included an ImageWriter II, but didn't bother to pack it
> very well.

Eeeek!

I am not as enamoured of the Q605 case, though. My Q605 got an LC III case,
which *almost* fits (the auto-inject floppy doesn't *quite* work because the
LC 3 top case floppy slot doesn't *quite* line up with the Q605 bottom).

I am torn on '030s. The Color Classic is cute, but wimpy (the Mystic update
helped mine tremendously). The IIsi was my first Mac I ever personally owned,
and I have a lot of nostalgia for it, but suffers from a dearth of expansion
options (at best you can cough up a single NuBus slot). So I'd have to say
my favourites are the SE/30, of course, but also the IIci, which is stackable,
expandable and plentiful.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm watching the cat litter clump." ------


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Dec 14 19:26:26 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:26:26 -0500
Subject: Professor Knuth, music notation - Re: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <p06240809cb0455218e7f@192.168.1.157>,
 <4EE0AC64.3856.D2D2F2@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com> <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EE94CC2.6090909@telegraphics.com.au>

On 14/12/11 5:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 14 Dec 2011 at 14:16, Charlie Carothers wrote:
>
>> I guess we're straying pretty far OT here, but I just couldn't resist
>> responding since music is one of the other loves of my life.  Though I
>> read music rather slowly and poorly, I was able to detect the
>> monotonic spacing in the first examples before I scrolled down and
>> read the rest.
>
> Not so far, IMOHO.  The subject of TeX was broached somewhere in this
> thread, IIRC, which brought up the comparison of composition problems
> in both music notation and text.  Text is easy when compared to music
> and it's such that handwritten music scores still abound even in new
> compositions.   It's also the case that writing a score by hand
> ttends to take less time than punching it into a computer,
> particularly if it's a complex one.
>
> I don't think that Knuth ever brought up the subject of musical
> notation, however.  If he has, it would make interesting reading.

Being an accomplished organist, he probably has a bundle of opinions, 
but would need another lifetime to tackle musical setting the way he 
pioneered digital typesetting. :)

--Toby


>
> Cheers,
> Chuck
>
>
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Dec 14 19:29:52 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:29:52 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>

On 14/12/11 5:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> Yes, I understood the panoply of standards, and certainly the TV companies do, too.
>> It's perfectly possible they ship a TV that can handle the standards of a
>> few countries.  After all, the frequencies aren't that different, and
>> the decoding is largely done in software these days.  Inside your average
>> CD TV today are two boards, one the power supply, another whose chips
>> look pretty much like a PC motherboard.
>
> Indeed.
>
> Amazingly the service manual for our LCD TV doesn't contain a schematic
> of the PSU board (it's unclear why not, one page says for 'safety reasosn
> the pSU must not be field-repaired',

That is because they want you to buy a whole new monitor when the crappy 
Chinese electrolytics swell up and die.

I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a 
happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the 
stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a 
crime that puts people behind bars.

--Toby

 > another page says that the PSU is a
> bought-in module, and no schematics are available), but you are expected
> to repair the signal PCB to component levbel armed only with a schematic
> (no real signal information is given). And IIRC at least one of the ICs
> is a BGA pacakge. Not fun...
>
> -tony
>



From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Wed Dec 14 19:30:12 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:30:12 -0500
Subject: S-100 CPU board PCBs
Message-ID: <00dd01ccbac9$17bf2f20$473d8d60$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi!  I have some excess S-100 8086 CPU board PCBs.  These are leftover from
the recent S100computers.com and N8VEM group buy.

 

They are $20 each plus $3 shipping in the US and $6 elsewhere.  Please send
a PayPal to LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM and I will send your boards right away.

 

Build and test of these boards has verified they work and the hardware is
correct although there is a minor top silkscreen error.

 

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder
<http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=S-100%208086%2
0CPU%20board> &param=S-100%208086%20CPU%20board

 

http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board
.htm

 

Also, if you are interested in an S-100 6502 CPU board, I am getting ready
to make a PCB manufacturing order.  So far there are 17 boards for builders
signed up and I need another 3 to make it economical.  Please contact me if
interested.

 

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder
<http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=S-100%206502%2
0CPU%20board> &param=S-100%206502%20CPU%20board

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

 

Andrew Lynch

 

PS, there are some remaining S-100 Serial IO and S-100 buffered prototyping
board PCBs left too.  



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 14 19:30:28 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:30:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111215000557.GA20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111214191616.GB1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <B8B781A7-0FCC-4F01-9116-DD97B670199A@gmail.com>
 <20111214211457.GC1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <20111215000557.GA20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <201112150130.UAA04612@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> And yes, I've known (clueless about Unix, obviously) people who used
> root as their normal user account.  And boasted about it "I'm so
> awesome!1".

I don't recall boasting about it, but I did this.  (Well, assuming you
mean they used uid-0 accounts.  I didn't actually use the one called
"root" as my usual login; I used "mouse", but its UID was 0.)

For a while - some years, I think.

What actually drove me away from it, near as I can remember, was all
the software that blindly assumed there's at most one user with any
given UID.  (I made a few mistakes that destroyed things, but they all
fell into two categories: (1) mistakes that destroyed my own stuff and
which would have still destroyed my own stuff if I hadn't been root,
and (2) mistakes that destroyed other stuff, but made when I would have
been running as root even if my login weren't root.  So, in a sense, I
got away with it with respect to that particular danger.)

But, since then, I've changed the opinions that led me to make that
choice.  Even if the various software that kept confusing me with root
and eventually drove me to stop doing that were fixed, I wouldn't do it
now.

I'm not sure how fair it would be to call then-me "clueless about
Unix".  Yes, I was lacking clue, but I think it wasn't Unix clue I was
lacking so much as clue about privilege and how it interacts with
human-layer phenomena more generally, independent of the system this is
taking place in.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 14 19:48:37 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:48:37 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111215003318.GH20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <20111215003318.GH20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EE951F5.3000202@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 07:33 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> Also, in true multiuser environments, to limit who is allowed to destroy the
> system when - not if - he fucks up. For instance, for corporate workstations
> you might grant everybody in the team/group login access, but only the
> official "owner" and the workstation support team gets root access via sudo.

   Kerberos is wonderful for this sort of thing; I've used it with great 
success.  Each user has *their own* root password (or "become root" 
password, if you will) in each administrative "realm" (a Kerberos term), 
it only works for that user, and on what machine it works is 
controllable on a machine-by-machine basis.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 14 20:18:17 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:18:17 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RawPp-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EE958E9.7010408@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 08:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
> but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
> where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
> running class A).

   Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb 
outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)

   That's a fascinating read; I'll try to find a pointer if you're 
interested. (I have the saga in a paper book, "Analog Circuit Design: 
Art, Science, and Personalites", one of my favorite books)

>> I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain research
>> student.
>
> Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.

   I'll let Tony wax poetic about that. :)  That was my reference to the 
incandescent bulb.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 14 20:32:19 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 21:32:19 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 08:29 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> Amazingly the service manual for our LCD TV doesn't contain a schematic
>> of the PSU board (it's unclear why not, one page says for 'safety reasosn
>> the pSU must not be field-repaired',
>
> That is because they want you to buy a whole new monitor when the crappy
> Chinese electrolytics swell up and die.
>
> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
> happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the
> stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a
> crime that puts people behind bars.

   Agreed 100%.

   Furthermore:
   http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 14 20:36:16 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:36:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112141445.pBEEjNQu091928@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <201112141445.pBEEjNQu091928@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20111214183537.O48542@shell.lmi.net>

Assistive Listening Suystems are ALSO 72MHz FM, although many of them are
now moving to 216MHz





From eric at brouhaha.com  Wed Dec 14 20:50:41 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 18:50:41 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111214162504.K48542@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
 <20111214162504.K48542@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE96081.5080005@brouhaha.com>

Fred Cisin wrote:
 > In the 1970s, there was one very popular UHF RF
 > modulator ("SupRMod"??) on
 > channel 34?
[...]
 > THAT RF mod'lator was probably responsible for
 > the standardizatioon on a 4 pin on Berg, with one
 > pin out as a key, on Apple][ and eventually on CGA.

That could be, although I thought it was the other way around, with the 
four-pin header of the Apple leading to the use of four pin connectors 
on modulators for home computers.



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 14 21:01:03 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:01:03 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddGcDXgGhasSBKOssK1zjzKVa6u23f2Uygz8MGdEVUZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>,
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>,
 <CANij+ddGcDXgGhasSBKOssK1zjzKVa6u23f2Uygz8MGdEVUZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8F26F.22807.1ED1658@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Dec 2011 at 19:47, William Donzelli wrote:

> > Our VHF channels go from 2 to 13 (I don't remember the story behind
> > why channel 1 is missing)
> 
> It was reallocated to another service (I think mobile FM), as were
> many bands right after World War 2.

A very ugly story goes along with this.  Edwin Armstrong had started 
his Yankee FM radio netowrk just before WWII  and FM broadcasters had 
been allocated use of the 42-50MHz band for their use.  (You can 
still find the occasional rare pre-war FM receiver with those 
frequencies).

"General" David Sarnoff of RCA at first didn't understand what FM was 
(he thought it was some sort of a filter on an AM radio) and then 
became alarmed when the relatively noise- and interference-free FM 
radio began gathering popularity.

Sarnoff decided (and got the FCC to approve) that  using FM as the 
audio portion of the NTSC signal was best for the fledgling TV 
industry.  Sarnoff offered Armstrong $1 million for non-exclusive 
license for FM.  When Armstrong refused, Sarnoff got angry and 
refused to pay any fees at all, and got other broadcasters to go 
along with RCA.  Armstrong, initially a wealthy man, was worn down by 
RCA's bevy of lawyers and endless appeals and broken financially.  He 
committed suicide and Sarnoff offered his widow $1 million to settle 
claims.

Largely due to  Sarnoff's vindictiveness and influence with the 
postwar FCC, the prewar FM band was moved to 88-108 MHz and TV 
channel 1 designated as the new owner of the old FM band.  This, of 
course, made all of the receivers sold by Armstrong useless.

Channel 1 proved to be less desirable than other higher-frequency 
channels, due in part to the better long-distance propogation 
characteristics, resulting in more interference.

Technical innovation the American way--racketeering, legal maneuvers 
and dirty tricks.

My uncle used to have an old Stromberg-Carlson set with the two-band 
continuous tuner that would tune Channel 1.

--Chuck



From bdwheele at indiana.edu  Wed Dec 14 21:03:37 2011
From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:03:37 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org> <4EE915D1.4020008@indiana.edu>
 <20111214215715.GA2031@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <1323918217.32080.1.camel@pazuzu.kittytangles.net>

On Wed, 2011-12-14 at 16:57 -0500, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Brian Wheeler once stated:
> > 
> > 
> > On 12/14/2011 04:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> > >It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> > >>In article<539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> > >>     Rich Alderson<RichA at vulcan.com>  writes:
> > >>
> > >>>That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> > >>>
> > >>>     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> > >>>
> > >>>will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> > >>Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> > >   Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> > >better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> > >commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> > >of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]
> > >
> > >   -spc (sudo this, sudo that, sudo something else ... for more than one
> > >	command, sudo is an annoyance ... )
> > >
> > >[1]	It doesn't protect the system at *all*.  Or rather, to prevent shell
> > >	access via sudo [2], you need to go to insane lengths in tightening
> > >	down the system.  @#$@#$ that!  I'll su, thank you very much.
> > >
> > >[2]	Because root shell access can cause a great amount of damage.  [3]
> > >
> > >[3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
> > >	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
> > >	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?
> > 
> > We use a common root password on our machines but we don't want to give 
> > some of the people who do admin things on those machine the common 
> > password -- so we give them sudo access on the machines they need to do 
> > admin on and don't really restrict what they can do with it because we 
> > "trust" them :)
> 
>   You don't trust some users with the root password, but you allow them a
> root shell via sudo and trust them not to install back doors.  
> 
>   -spc (My head a splode ... )
> 

We don't trust them on all of the machines, just a small subset.  Since
we're all in the same department, its mostly a sanity check thing rather
than a lockdown.



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 14 21:47:05 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 19:47:05 -0800
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1>, <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EE8FD39.19761.2173CB0@cclist.sydex.com>

On 14 Dec 2011 at 21:32, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/14/2011 08:29 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> > I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
> > happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the
> > stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a
> > crime that puts people behind bars.
> 
>    Agreed 100%.

I absolutely *love* the idiots who design CCFL inverter supplies for 
those monitors with 85C-rated electrolytics hot-glued to heatsinks.  
It's almost as if they're designing the thing to fail.

--Chuck



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 21:52:15 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 22:52:15 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 9:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>  http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg

Almost laughed out loud at that one.  Seems like it would cost more to make the fake if it weren't done by the millions.


- Dave




From chris at mainecoon.com  Wed Dec 14 22:06:39 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:06:39 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE8F26F.22807.1ED1658@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>,
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>,
 <CANij+ddGcDXgGhasSBKOssK1zjzKVa6u23f2Uygz8MGdEVUZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8F26F.22807.1ED1658@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <0FD9ED18-982D-4E1F-BAAF-1F04945F0FAB@mainecoon.com>


On 14 Dec 2011, at 7:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Largely due to  Sarnoff's vindictiveness and influence with the 
> postwar FCC, the prewar FM band was moved to 88-108 MHz and TV 
> channel 1 designated as the new owner of the old FM band.  This, of 
> course, made all of the receivers sold by Armstrong useless.

Eh, close, but not quite.  The 42-50MHz FM band wasn't actually created until March 1940; prior to that it was an experimental service confined to 42.6 to 43.4 MHz. The 1940 allocation did indeed overlap with the prewar allocation for Channel One; in fact none of the pre-1948/49 allocations were clear channel; they were all shared allocations.  What really happened post-war is that channel one got dropped back to its pre-war allocation:

Channel one, 1938-1940: 44-50 MHz
Channel one, 1940-1946: 50-56 MHz 
Channel one, 1946-1948: 44-50 MHz

It's interesting to note that the FCC didn't just screw with channel one, between 1939 and 1946 they changed the frequency slots for the lower 13 channels and in a stepwise fashion dropped channels 14-19. The major rejiggering of the television and FM allocations became effective in July 1940 with commercial FM broadcasting authorize to begin January 1941.  

When the FCC initially moved the 42-50 MHz FM band to 88-108MHz Armstrong, who still had some juice, had a fit and managed to get the FCC to re-establish the old 42-50MHz band to help with the transition.  The Big Four Armstrong licensees (Zenith, Magnavox, GE and Stromberg Carlson) all made FM radios with both bands until 1949.  The final disposition of the 42-50MHz slot was to fixed and land mobile services.  

> 
> Channel 1 proved to be less desirable than other higher-frequency 
> channels, due in part to the better long-distance propogation 
> characteristics, resulting in more interference.

And the fact that it was limited to "community" programming and a power output of 1KW rather than the 50KW allowed the other channels.  The television broadcasters were none too thrilled about having to give up yet another channel (they had 19 in the 1938-1940 period) but decided it was far better to have 12 clear channels than 13 shared ones.

> Technical innovation the American way--racketeering, legal maneuvers 
> and dirty tricks.

No argument there.

> 
> My uncle used to have an old Stromberg-Carlson set with the two-band 
> continuous tuner that would tune Channel 1.

A lot of 1946-1948 radios were dual band and would have been able to do so, since the 42-50MHz band overlapped with the 44-50MHz slot assigned post-war to channel one.
--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 22:41:06 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 23:41:06 -0500
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <201112150124.pBF1Onmq017248@floodgap.com>
References: <201112150124.pBF1Onmq017248@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <57676E71-5F1A-4B18-9C41-6D053618E603@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 8:24 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

>> In any case, it's only $20 with free shipping on Ebay, so it's not a very
>> expensive experiment.
> 
> I'd like to hear how (if?) it works, because more RAM in mine may make it
> a good candidate for other tasks.

If I get it, I'll let you know.  It'd be a load off everyone's mind if most 128MB SIMMs work (I haven't actually heard any reports of any not working, but maybe I haven't been looking hard enough).

>> The LC475/Quadra 605 is probably my favorite machine from the '040 era (the
>> SE/30 and IIsi vie for my '030 affections).  I wish I had one with a Q605
>> case, because I think it looks a bit nicer; as it is, the fellow who sold me
>> his 475 very nicely included an ImageWriter II, but didn't bother to pack it
>> very well.
> 
> Eeeek!
> 
> I am not as enamoured of the Q605 case, though. My Q605 got an LC III case,
> which *almost* fits (the auto-inject floppy doesn't *quite* work because the
> LC 3 top case floppy slot doesn't *quite* line up with the Q605 bottom).

Well, it's subjective, I guess.  I liked the flat profile better than the slanted one.  I like the simple slot of the older floppy drives a lot better than the manual inject ones, though.  The LC 475 case I have is a manual inject one, though it's so badly damaged it's almost not worth keeping the top on anyway.

> I am torn on '030s. The Color Classic is cute, but wimpy (the Mystic update
> helped mine tremendously). The IIsi was my first Mac I ever personally owned,
> and I have a lot of nostalgia for it, but suffers from a dearth of expansion
> options (at best you can cough up a single NuBus slot). So I'd have to say
> my favourites are the SE/30, of course, but also the IIci, which is stackable,
> expandable and plentiful.

Oh, right.  The IIci is my favorite.  Forgot about that.  That said, doesn't the SE/30 have the same PDS slot as the IIsi?  The manual for my SE Ethernet card has instructions on installing the IIsi + SE/30 card as well.

- Dave


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 22:47:01 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 23:47:01 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <0FD9ED18-982D-4E1F-BAAF-1F04945F0FAB@mainecoon.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>
 <CANij+ddGcDXgGhasSBKOssK1zjzKVa6u23f2Uygz8MGdEVUZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8F26F.22807.1ED1658@cclist.sydex.com>
 <0FD9ED18-982D-4E1F-BAAF-1F04945F0FAB@mainecoon.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddqCuq_b-sKiPQEfPM_47sNm90ctG0nx4m-w+U21YCQGg@mail.gmail.com>

> The final disposition of the 42-50MHz slot was to fixed and land mobile services.

The military also could use the 42-50 Mhz band, as part of their VHF
FM squad radio band, as seen in the zillions of AN/PRC-6 and AN/PRC-10
sets. They pretty much grabbed the band during World War 2, when their
really was no commercial television, and they did not want to give it
back.

--
Will


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 22:48:50 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 23:48:50 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EE958E9.7010408@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RawPp-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EE958E9.7010408@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <55FFFA79-A8E4-4CFA-8363-979558897D97@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 9:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/14/2011 08:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
>> but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
>> where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
>> running class A).
> 
>  Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)
> 
>  That's a fascinating read; I'll try to find a pointer if you're interested. (I have the saga in a paper book, "Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science, and Personalites", one of my favorite books)

Fun fact about other contemporaneously-deceased electronics personalities: I have a signed copy of Bob Pease's "Debugging Analog Circuits" (won it as the door prize when he came to speak at a neighboring company).  He signed it "May all your problems be medium-sized (so you can find 'em!)".  It's absolutely a book worth having if you're dealing with finicky analog things.

- Dave




From spectre at floodgap.com  Wed Dec 14 22:59:58 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 20:59:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <57676E71-5F1A-4B18-9C41-6D053618E603@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 14, 11 11:41:06 pm"
Message-ID: <201112150459.pBF4xwSS014724@floodgap.com>

> > I'd like to hear how (if?) it works, because more RAM in mine may make it
> > a good candidate for other tasks.
> 
> If I get it, I'll let you know.

Please do.

> That said, doesn't the SE/30 have the same PDS slot as the IIsi?

Yes. In fact, allegedly, if you find a IIsi ROM SIMM it will make an SE/30
32-bit clean. Allegedly, because they are apparently as rare as golden
hen's teeth in honest Congresscritters.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION! ------------------------------------


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 23:26:15 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:26:15 -0500
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <201112150459.pBF4xwSS014724@floodgap.com>
References: <201112150459.pBF4xwSS014724@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <D847F014-C451-45DC-8661-C6F8BFBBAE0C@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:59 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> Yes. In fact, allegedly, if you find a IIsi ROM SIMM it will make an SE/30
> 32-bit clean. Allegedly, because they are apparently as rare as golden
> hen's teeth in honest Congresscritters.

Sounds like a job for an engineer! Though if one were to make a replacement, one would have to have blank PROMs/flash on the replacement board, because last I remember, Apple still viciously defends the Mac ROM copyright (as they probably should).

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 23:30:06 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:30:06 -0500
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <201112150459.pBF4xwSS014724@floodgap.com>
References: <201112150459.pBF4xwSS014724@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <7FD47858-2C90-4A23-8366-5B17F35B109F@gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:59 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> Yes. In fact, allegedly, if you find a IIsi ROM SIMM it will make an SE/30
> 32-bit clean. Allegedly, because they are apparently as rare as golden
> hen's teeth in honest Congresscritters.

Eesh.  Looks like it's no picnic actually running the thing, though:

http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/os8_se30.html#lbrd


Though why you'd run 8.1 on an '030 is beyond me.  Reminds me of the time I bootstrapped an early OS X onto my (unmodified) 7300; I learned before I even got halfway through the installer why Apple chose a minimum of a G3.


- Dave





From spc at conman.org  Wed Dec 14 23:51:43 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 00:51:43 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <7054C367-6BBE-4DBE-A552-A0A6AFE58B6F@gmail.com>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <7054C367-6BBE-4DBE-A552-A0A6AFE58B6F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111215055143.GB2031@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great David Riley once stated:
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 4:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
> 
> > It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> >> 
> >> In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> >>    Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
> >> 
> >>> That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> >>> 
> >>>    GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> >>> 
> >>> will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> >> 
> >> Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> > 
> >  Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> > better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> > commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> > of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]  
> 
> The point is so you don't do something stupid accidentally, like "chmod -R
> 666 /".  It's just a safety; it's not meant to lock people out of having
> root shells, it's just to prevent them from doing it routinely.  It's been
> useful to me in that respect, as it has prevented me from doing stupid
> things accidentally because I wasn't in a root shell.

  So far, the only difference I see between "su -" and "sudo -s" is what
password I type.  I've helped other admins set up sudo.  That's why I don't
bother with it, becuase it's a freaking pain to set up to allow "limited"
access.

  When I beome root, it's to run a series of commands, and to become root, I
have to type in a command.  And in fact, I can't remember the last time I
ran only *one* command as root.  And frankly, I don't become root very often
(just to install software (compiled from the tarball, or maybe the package
system du jour) or restart a downed or non-functioning daemon).

  Have I accidentally deleted files?  Yeah, but I've done that as a non-root
user with disasterous results.  Those using sudo because "it's more secure"
are deluding themselves, in my opinion.

> It also has the alternate function of granting limited admin powers to
> non-superusers, but I would argue that anything other than a whitelist of
> commands is asking for trouble in that regard (and it's probably just not
> a great idea in general, given how many programs have doors out the side,
> like vi).

  I can't think of many commands that 1) won't give you root access via some
method, or 2) are very useful by themselves as a one-off in root.

  -spc (But I can see I'm in a very small minority ... )



From spc at conman.org  Thu Dec 15 00:00:07 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:00:07 -0500
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>
 <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
> 
> I don't think that Knuth ever brought up the subject of musical 
> notation, however.  If he has, it would make interesting reading.

  In both _Metamagical Themas_ and _Godel, Escher, Bach_, Douglas Hofstadter
used a program called SMUT to layout and print musical scores.  SMUT was
written by Donald Byrd at Indiana University.  And from the examples given,
it does an incredible job.

  -spc



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 15 00:07:35 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 01:07:35 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RaaKk-000J4PC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RaaKk-000J4PC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EE98EA7.9010709@neurotica.com>

On 12/13/2011 04:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>> And it's really just the composite video signal modulated by a
>>> carrier;
>>
>>     Carrier modulated by the composite video signal, actually. (sorry)
>
> A  lot of modul;aotr circutis are symmetircal betwene the signal and
> carrier inputs I think. So isn't it just a matter of convention as to
> what is modulating what?

   Of course, for the strictest case of just the modulator.  But those 
filters on the outputs select what we were really after. ;)

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Dec 15 01:02:24 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:02:24 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <FBCF5766B83446648FEBD2D9D310C5D0@Pc12>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FBCF5766B83446648FEBD2D9D310C5D0@Pc12>
Message-ID: <20111215070224.GA21181@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

nierveze wrote:

> hello thanks for your precisions,I am also doing the same
> a few ideas:for the dc inverter what not use icl7660 ,they can give 
> you -12v,
> you can get free samples from Maxim,just register on their site,I 
> frequently use those circuits for gaasfet lnas (I am a ham also)

Ok, have som 7660 already, but I have to investigate first if they can give
the required current. http://katalogy.ic.cz/MHB1012.html means that I need
14mA for one IC, want to use 2 of them.

> for odt the problem is that those processors do not have odt in microcrode
> (contrary of dec's processors),so we will have to make our own program,I
> think of using the console of the 11/34 that is here:
> http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/
> you will find the source,it can be modified to fill the need of the russian 
> processors ,that need the psw at adress of start+2,and recompiled.
> but a problem is if we use dec 's program we must comply to dec's standards 
> that reques that the processor has a dl11 (or dlv11)compatible board.
> as console,not only a uart.

Yes know. I (we?) have to build the entire register structure of the DL11.
There is the DEC DC319 (and an russian equivalent) what should do most of
that already, but currently I have no source for that parts.

> Is the soviet serie there are circuits that make this they are the
> KR1801VM1-35 and the KR1801VM1-65
> you can find examples of its use here:
> http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/DVK/docs/
> file
> MicroEVM_Book_2.djvu
> can you say me where you found the file that you use for your eproms?what 
> computer does it come from:bk,dvk,uknc??

Don't know where I found it, but this rom resides on the DBK-2 board.
(MC1201.02).

> and where are you,maybe we are not too far??
> best regards
> good luck alain nierveze
[..]

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From wmaddox at pacbell.net  Thu Dec 15 01:19:28 2011
From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 23:19:28 -0800 (PST)
Subject: shipping options for Columbus OH
In-Reply-To: <4EE94055.5040007@att.net>
Message-ID: <1323933568.41324.YahooMailClassic@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

--- On Wed, 12/14/11, steve shumaker <shumaker at att.net> wrote:

> The question
> for this august group is simple:? It appears that both
> Fast Track Logistics and Craters and Freighters are
> available at the location.???I'm seeking
> opinions and experience with these two shippers in shipping
> vintage equipment (or other options for Columbus if anyone
> has one).? I've seen occasional mentions on here in the
> past and would welcome opinions and experiences as info for
> making a decision.

I had an ASR-33 shipped succesfully from Columbus.  The seller
had secured the internal chassis, but the shipper had to crate
and palletize it.  I believe that the local pickup and crating
was actually done by Craters and Freighters, though they were
subcontracted through CTS (now moveit.com) and the transport to
California was via DB Schenker.

--Bill





From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 15 01:27:27 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 23:27:27 -0800
Subject: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>
References: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>,
 <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EE930DF.26788.2E0FBF8@cclist.sydex.com>

On 15 Dec 2011 at 1:00, Sean Conner wrote:

> used a program called SMUT to layout and print musical scores.  SMUT
> was written by Donald Byrd at Indiana University.  And from the
> examples given, it does an incredible job.

SMUT evolved to Nightingale (Mac only and even for Classic Mac OS), 
but it looks as if nothing has happened since 2007.  I've never used 
it, but maybe I'll pull out the appropriately-aged beige G3 and give 
his freeware version a try just to see.  There's virtually no 
discussion of this package on the online fora, from what I can tell.

http://www.ngale.com/index_04.html

--Chuck



From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 14 15:29:15 2011
From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis)
Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 14:29:15 -0700
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <85007F01-8505-43B7-AEDB-7F99F8F546A0@gmail.com>
References: <85007F01-8505-43B7-AEDB-7F99F8F546A0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAOPi=7AENdLvy+c30fV_vFaDE=axnSv3RjaOPgS=N_tEUZHcCg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a rather esoteric question that I suspect at least one person may
> be able to answer better than the collective urban legendry found on Google.
>
> I have a Mac LC475 (same machine as Quadra 605), and I'm looking to max
> out the memory.  None of Apple's tech notes mention anything about EDO
> memory, and people tend to generally think that it can handle it, but I've
> been bitten before.  Does anyone have a good idea about whether the memory
> controller can handle it?  Also whether it can actually take advantage of
> it?  My gut feeling is yes to the first and no to the second.
>
> Secondly, does anyone have experience with Micro Memory Bank?  They seem
> to be offloading piles of newly-manufactured vintage-compatible (5V FPM and
> EDO) DIMMs and SIMMs on Ebay. The collective common wisdom for the LC475 is
> that 128MB SIMMs will work, but only if they're single-ranked.  The
> salespeople for the vendor don't seem to know what I'm talking about when I
> ask, and I'm having a hard time getting photos of the board from them
> (which should at least let me look at the traces).  Anyone know about their
> 128 MB EDO/FPM SIMMs?
>
> Relevant auction number is 350478815002.
>
> - Dave
>

Dave,

I have successfully used EDO memory in a Performa 475 (same as the LC
475/Quadra 605), but some of the EDO boards I tried only showed up as 96MB.
Haven't dealt with Micro Memory Bank.

John


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Dec 15 02:23:01 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:23:01 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <20111215070224.GA21181@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FBCF5766B83446648FEBD2D9D310C5D0@Pc12>
 <20111215070224.GA21181@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111215082301.GA21255@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Holm Tiffe wrote:

> nierveze wrote:
> 
> > hello thanks for your precisions,I am also doing the same
> > a few ideas:for the dc inverter what not use icl7660 ,they can give 
> > you -12v,
> > you can get free samples from Maxim,just register on their site,I 
> > frequently use those circuits for gaasfet lnas (I am a ham also)
> 
> Ok, have som 7660 already, but I have to investigate first if they can give
> the required current. http://katalogy.ic.cz/MHB1012.html means that I need
> 14mA for one IC, want to use 2 of them.

Ok, I've found some peaces of VA12-12 DC/DC Converters from reliability
inc in my "stock". They make +-12V out of 5V, used them already for an 2708 Eprom
Programmer that works well. The 7660 gives a to small output current, read
the datasheets minutes before.. Now I can use 1488/1489 as V.24
Transceivers :-)

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Dec 15 04:07:09 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:07:09 +0100 (CET)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
> But, at the moment, all that we care about is whether we can cable from an
> "RCA jack" and whether it can tune in the almost-NTSC USA "channel 3" put
> out by the RF modulator in a Coco.

You can cable anything you like. If that will work is another question ;-)
Seriously, the OP should just a VCR as a receiver/demodulator and feed the 
(C)VBS signal into an appropriate monitor (some modern flat panel displays 
have an RCA and/or S-Video input; or just use a video monitor, or 
better: just buy (or get for free) an old TV).
The whole discussion is on the niveau of saying "I don't need electricity, 
but I want to use my electric toaster. What can I do?".

BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV 
channel frequencies.

Christian


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Dec 15 04:38:32 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:38:32 +0100 (CET)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE8F26F.22807.1ED1658@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RaxMg-000J4YC@p850ug1>,
 <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com>,
 <CANij+ddGcDXgGhasSBKOssK1zjzKVa6u23f2Uygz8MGdEVUZ3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE8F26F.22807.1ED1658@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151127520.8132@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> Largely due to  Sarnoff's vindictiveness and influence with the
> postwar FCC, the prewar FM band was moved to 88-108 MHz and TV

IIRC the "FM band" (broadcasting band II, VHF) was 87,50-100,00 MHz 
initially since 1946. Somewhere around 1970 it was expanded to 104,00 MHz 
and later (around 1980?) to 108,00 MHz.

... just found the following table:

1937	41-44 MHz	USA: Festlegung durch die FCC f?r "Apex-Radio"
20.05.1940	42-50 MHz	USA: Erweiterung wegen erwarteter Kapazit?tsengp?sse
25.02.1946	88-106 MHz	USA: Verlegung wegen vermeintlicher St?ranf?lligkeit
1947	87,5-100 MHz	Int. Rundfunkkonferenz Atlantic City: Festlegung f?r Europa
1948	88-108 MHz	USA: Erweiterung durch die FCC
1955	88-94,6 MHz	UK und Irland: Erste Festlegung
1960	68-73,1 MHz	Osteuropa: Neufestlegung in Genf
1961	65,9-73,1 MHz	Eur. VHF/UHF-Konferenz Stockholm: Erweiterung f?r Osteuropa
1961	87,5-100 MHz	Eur. VHF/UHF-Konferenz Stockholm: Definitive Festlegung
1967	88-97,6 MHz	UK und Irland: Erweiterung
1979	87,5-108 MHz	Int. Rundfunkkonferenz Genf: Beschluss Erweiterung f?r Europa
1979(*)	87,5-104 MHz	Diverse europ?ische Staaten: Vorl?ufige Erweiterung
1984	87,5-108 MHz	Eur. VHF/UHF-Rundfunkkonferenz Genf: G?ltigkeit Erweiterung

(*) that must be wrong, because I have much earlier 70s FM radios with 
that range.

Christian

From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 04:45:14 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:45:14 +0000
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011 7:37 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/14/2011 02:11 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
>>>>,
>>>> Mysterious "configuration
>>>> wizards" layered on top of standard Unix configuration files,
>>>
>>> Not seen that.
>>
>> I get them all the time at "apt-get install" and the like on my Debian
>> box at work.
>
>
>  Then don't run Debian. ;)  I run Ubuntu (yes I know, Debian-based) and
I've NEVER seen such a "wizard" pop up, in probably two hundred runs of
"apt-get install".

Oh yes, there are quite a few of those (now that I understand what he
means). Examples:
- msttcorefonts
- Sun JVM
- gdm, lightdm or other change of dm

- LGHP


From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 15 05:36:44 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 03:36:44 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <4EE9DBCC.8050808@brouhaha.com>

Christian Corti wrote:
 > You can cable anything you like. If that will work is another 
question ;-)

Brings to mind Tom Payne's song "Please, Mr. Compatibility":

     http://lyrics.wikia.com/Tom_Payne:Please,_Mr._Compatibility



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 06:52:34 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 07:52:34 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1>
	<4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112151252.HAA13438@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> (it's unclear why not, one page says for 'safety reasosn the pSU
>> must not be field-repaired',
> That is because they want you to buy a whole new monitor when the
> crappy Chinese electrolytics swell up and die.

I suspect it's also partly ass-covering by the maker; there may also be
regulatory reasons for it in some jurisdictions.  (The Litigous States
of America comes to mind.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From holm at freibergnet.de  Thu Dec 15 07:21:07 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:21:07 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 14, 2011, at 9:32 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> 
> >  http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg
> 
> Almost laughed out loud at that one.  Seems like it would cost more to make the fake if it weren't done by the millions.
> 
> 
> - Dave
> 

Don't think that this one is real. It is on the web for years now and still
reappearing from time to time.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 07:53:54 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:53:54 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <6BA27DD7-6D34-4609-8ABD-FB218C01EF7E@gmail.com>

On Dec 15, 2011, at 5:07 AM, Christian Corti wrote:

> BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV channel frequencies.

Indeed, though it is often used (somewhat coloquially, I guess) to refer to the various frequency allocations per country, a la http://hamradio.arc.nasa.gov/ntscfreq.html.  Perhaps that's incorrect usage.

- Dave




From barythrin at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 15 08:02:52 2011
From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 06:02:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111215003549.GI20776@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <1323957772.61331.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

One reason to use/require sudo of root commands that I've seen was for auditing the use of root access/commands.  It wasn't for security purposes other than yes to give approved people access to priviledged commands using their password and not reveal the root password, however it nicely logs to your logging server that user ran x command.  It was a pain yes I wouldn't argue that and the change of habit from admins sudoing to su takes a bit to get out of autopilot mode but it worked out in the end.

The other comment was no of course it isn't a security measure or preventing a non-admin from creating an account, however every employer/employee should be getting a nice little motd or security message indicating proper authorized use of the system and lack of expectation to privacy.  Creating an administrative account/backdoor would be good grounds to be fired.  It's just a security control.


--- On Wed, 12/14/11, Alexander Schreiber <als at thangorodrim.de> wrote:

> > > >???-spc (sudo this, sudo that,
> sudo something else ... for more than one
> > > >??? command, sudo is an
> annoyance ... )
> >???You don't trust some users with the
> root password, but you allow them a
> > root shell via sudo and trust them not to install back
> doors.? 




From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 08:16:53 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:16:53 +0000
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011 1:47 AM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>
> On 13/12/11 12:13 AM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>
>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>
>>> On 12/12/11 3:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>>>
>>>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>>>
>>>>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases.
Can
>>>>> you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very
>>>>> poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is
>>>>> neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
>>>> commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:
>>>>
>>>>   And GCC also has trouble with extentions:
>>>>
>>> Errr... again, these are *programs*, not Unix...
>>
>>
>>   Again, what is *your* definition of Unix?  The Unix *kernel* only cares
>
>
> Easy. You can make the program behave how you like regarding extensions,
but it will still run on Unix.
>
> It's not necessary to change the operating system to fix this. But
perhaps Liam misspoke in the heat of the moment, and meant "*shell* handles
file extensions very poorly". I haven't seen a correction in this vein yet,
so this is only a theory.
>
Well, /strictly/, yes, but since I have never seen or heard of a single
UNIX or Linux shell that does what I consider to be the sane or right
thing, I think it's fair to say that it's an attribute of the OS as a whole.


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 08:27:56 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:27:56 -0500
Subject: Typesetting musical scores - Re: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>
References: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>
 <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <4EEA03EC.4010706@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 1:00 AM, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
>>
>> I don't think that Knuth ever brought up the subject of musical
>> notation, however.  If he has, it would make interesting reading.
>
>    In both _Metamagical Themas_ and _Godel, Escher, Bach_, Douglas Hofstadter
> used a program called SMUT to layout and print musical scores.  SMUT was
> written by Donald Byrd at Indiana University.  And from the examples given,
> it does an incredible job.

There's also LilyPond. http://lilypond.org/

--Toby

>
>    -spc
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 08:36:17 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:36:17 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 9:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2011 1:47 AM, "Toby Thain"<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>>
>> On 13/12/11 12:13 AM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>>
>>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/12/11 3:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases.
> Can
>>>>>> you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very
>>>>>> poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is
>>>>>> neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
>>>>> commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:
>>>>>
>>>>>    And GCC also has trouble with extentions:
>>>>>
>>>> Errr... again, these are *programs*, not Unix...
>>>
>>>
>>>    Again, what is *your* definition of Unix?  The Unix *kernel* only cares
>>
>>
>> Easy. You can make the program behave how you like regarding extensions,
> but it will still run on Unix.
>>
>> It's not necessary to change the operating system to fix this. But
> perhaps Liam misspoke in the heat of the moment, and meant "*shell* handles
> file extensions very poorly". I haven't seen a correction in this vein yet,
> so this is only a theory.
>>
> Well, /strictly/, yes, but since I have never seen or heard of a single
> UNIX or Linux shell that does what I consider to be the sane or right
> thing, I think it's fair to say that it's an attribute of the OS as a whole.
>

But that's a nonsensical conclusion, by the reasoning I gave above. You 
don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever defective 
behaviour you've found in shells (still unclear what that is, unless we 
are still talking about the faux-DOS command that failed to DWIM).

--T


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 08:39:15 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:39:15 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE8FD39.19761.2173CB0@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1>, <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <4EE8FD39.19761.2173CB0@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EEA0693.2000001@telegraphics.com.au>

On 14/12/11 10:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 14 Dec 2011 at 21:32, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
>> On 12/14/2011 08:29 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
>>> happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the
>>> stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a
>>> crime that puts people behind bars.
>>
>>     Agreed 100%.
>
> I absolutely *love* the idiots who design CCFL inverter supplies for
> those monitors with 85C-rated electrolytics hot-glued to heatsinks.
> It's almost as if they're designing the thing to fail.

Why on Earth would they do that?? Well, I think we know. If a typical 
PC's life is 3 years (!!), the monitor manufacturer is not going to 
build a screen that lasts for 10 or more. Think of the missed future 
sales when the whole system is turned over to upgrade!

Part of the China phenomenon is this destructive reinforcement loop. And 
now most people have been trained to accept that everything breaks after 
a short while and you just buy another one.

--Toby

>
> --Chuck
>
>



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 08:52:27 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:52:27 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> [41 lines of unnecessary history cut - *please* trim your quotes,
> people!]

> [...]  You don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever
> defective behaviour you've found in shells

To the extent that the shell is part of the OS, you do.  And that's not
a totally unfair position; shells ship with OSes and are maintained as
part of OSes...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let
users change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding
peeve of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 09:04:40 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:04:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EE958E9.7010408@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RawPp-000J48C@p850ug1>
 <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EE958E9.7010408@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112151504.KAA15582@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> [...], I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb, but
>> instead uses a FET as a variable resistor,
> Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb
> outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)

That's not surprising - where the bulb actually works.  But if the
period of the oscillator is long compared to the bulb's warmup/cooldown
time, it won't work.  It also won't work if the response time required
from the AGC is fast compared to the bulb's warmup/cooldown time.

Also, if the bulb's filament is coiled, as many are, its inductance may
prove to be significant at high oscillator frequencies - I don't know
how much inductance the typical bulb's filament has, but I doubt it's a
characteristic usually controlled for in bulb design.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From alexeyt at freeshell.org  Thu Dec 15 09:10:56 2011
From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:10:56 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: LC475 and EDO RAM
In-Reply-To: <7FD47858-2C90-4A23-8366-5B17F35B109F@gmail.com>
References: <201112150459.pBF4xwSS014724@floodgap.com>
 <7FD47858-2C90-4A23-8366-5B17F35B109F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112151509590.12368@otaku.freeshell.org>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 14, 2011, at 11:59 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>
>> Yes. In fact, allegedly, if you find a IIsi ROM SIMM it will make an SE/30
>> 32-bit clean. Allegedly, because they are apparently as rare as golden
>> hen's teeth in honest Congresscritters.
>
> Eesh.  Looks like it's no picnic actually running the thing, though:
>
> http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/os8_se30.html#lbrd
>
> Though why you'd run 8.1 on an '030 is beyond me.  Reminds me of the 
> time I bootstrapped an early OS X onto my (unmodified) 7300; I learned 
> before I even got halfway through the installer why Apple chose a 
> minimum of a G3.

I thought the point of making an SE/30 32-bit clean was for running A/UX 
on it?

 			Alexey


From tshoppa at wmata.com  Thu Dec 15 09:12:27 2011
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:12:27 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>

On 12/14/2011 08:29 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
> happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the
> stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a
> crime that puts people behind bars.

If they had successfully built in obsolescence, then all the parts would fail at the same time.

The US big 3 automakers to their credit did a pretty good job with this for a long time. Yeah, cars in crashes still had good parts to pick over in a junkyard, but by the end of a cars natural life there really wasn't an awful lot left to pick over.

Not that I'd wish a 1974 Dodge Monaco on just anyone :-)

Tim.



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 09:16:07 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:16:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111215055143.GB2031@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
 <7054C367-6BBE-4DBE-A552-A0A6AFE58B6F@gmail.com>
 <20111215055143.GB2031@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <201112151516.KAA15714@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> So far, the only difference I see between "su -" and "sudo -s" is
> what password I type.

I _think_ "su -" uses root's shell and "sudo -s" uses your shell.

> Those using sudo because "it's more secure" are deluding themselves,
> in my opinion.

Actually, there are threats it's more secure against than simple su.
(Not to say that all, or even most, of those espousing the "It's More
Secure" theory have bothered with threat modeling, or even know the
concept; Sturgeon's Law applies.)

> I can't think of many commands that 1) won't give you root access via
> some method, or 2) are very useful by themselves as a one-off in
> root.

(1) doesn't matter unless you are dealing with malicious attackers.
While I don't have enough information to say anything about how common
they are among sudo users, there _are_ plenty of potential sudo uses
that do not have to worry about them.

As for (2), there are lots of commands that are useful as one-offs when
run as root.  At least a few of them have fairly low "pervert to obtain
root access" potential; for example, the desire that led me to muck
about with sudo most recently was the desire to give someone tcpdump
access on a particular interface of a particular machine - not
particularly dangerous, especially since it's also a case of a user
who's trusted to be non-malicious, just not trusted with the mistake
potential a full root shell carries.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec 15 09:49:51 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 07:49:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from Mouse
 at "Dec 15, 11 09:52:27 am"
Message-ID: <201112151549.pBFFnpAf006242@floodgap.com>

> > [...]  You don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever
> > defective behaviour you've found in shells
> 
> To the extent that the shell is part of the OS, you do.  And that's not
> a totally unfair position; shells ship with OSes and are maintained as
> part of OSes...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let
> users change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding
> peeve of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).

I agree that this is a ridiculous limitation and I've personally been
bitten by it.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Never eat more than you can lift. -- Miss Piggy ----------------------------


From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com  Thu Dec 15 10:00:30 2011
From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:00:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Looking for powerpc and decent graphics card for Apple Quadra 950
Message-ID: <1323964830.35037.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I'm dusting off my Quadra 950 and thought it might be good to try and 

upgrade it a bit if I can.

I have a fairly slow TrueColour graphics card installed at the moment, so
I'm looking for a better quality/faster NuBus card.

I'd also like to put in a PowerPC upgrade if I can find one. I used to have
one of these years ago, and it used to work pretty well. The Quadra has
a PDS type slot.

Anyway - anything considered. I'm in the UK - but shipping this weight of
item from overseas wouldnt be too much I think.

Contact me off list if you have anything. 


Thanks Ian. :)


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Thu Dec 15 10:05:19 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:05:19 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Shoppa, Tim" <tshoppa at wmata.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub 
converter possible?


> On 12/14/2011 08:29 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
>> happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the
>> stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a
>> crime that puts people behind bars.
>
> If they had successfully built in obsolescence, then all the parts would 
> fail at the same time.
>
> The US big 3 automakers to their credit did a pretty good job with this 
> for a long time. Yeah, cars in crashes still had good parts to pick over 
> in a junkyard, but by the end of a cars natural life there really wasn't 
> an awful lot left to pick over.
>
> Not that I'd wish a 1974 Dodge Monaco on just anyone :-)
>
> Tim.
>

The problem is engineering tools got better and better so the fudge factor 
needed to make sure the part lasted as long as it was designed for got lower 
and lower. Metal use dropped as plastics got stronger, so parts get brittle 
with age instead of lasting forever. Things like this are done to make parts 
cheaper to compete better (basically to squeeze more profit out of 
something), so we have items designed to fail after the warranty expires. 
The cheaper something is sold for the shorter the warranty needed so by 
design things become cheaper and disposable.








From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com  Thu Dec 15 02:58:59 2011
From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:58:59 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FBCF5766B83446648FEBD2D9D310C5D0@Pc12>
 <20111215070224.GA21181@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <5997CD33F99D4EB38591BD2E316FD218@Pc12>

hello,I found roms here:
http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4118
in the zip archive there several images,
here is the translation of the documentation:
000.DAT - monitor MS1201.0, starting address 0160000
013.DAT - ROM BASIC for MS1201.0, starting address 0140000,
 inputoutput on PR/PP/PC11 (punched tape!)
055.DAT - monitor MS1201.2, starting address 0140000
091.DAT - ROM [KMD] is original, addr=0, OZU to 1809RU1, controller of 
1801VP1-097
092.DAT - PZU [KMD], addr=0, RAM to 537RU11, controller of 1801VP1-128
093.DAT - PZU [KMD], addr=0, RAM to 1809[RU]1, controller of 1801VP1-128
134.DAT - monitor MS1201.3, addr=0
134e.DAT - monitor MS1201.3, addr=0, for the work with the firm terminals
 (without the Russian in the communications, charger RR instead of DX)
181.DAT - ROM [KTSGD], addr=0100000, original version, the instruction 
system of vt102
182.DAT - ROM [KTSGD], addr=0100000, many bugfix[ov], the instruction system 
of
 vt220, the graphic programs, written under 181, no longer go = (
255.DAT - ROM [KMD], addr=0, OZU to 537RU8/RU10 is fixed with
 addresses 020000..027777, controller of 1801VP1-128
For the components I bought them from platan
http://www.platan.ru/
,or chip dip
http://www.chipdip.ru/
as they never anwered to my emails,I asked a friend (the ebay seller
ru seller
http://stores.ebay.com/Soviet-Souvenirs?_trksid=p4340.l2563)
I have bought several computers and lots of circuits by his help,
ask him.He bought them from me in russian,and sent them to me ,I paid by 
paypal.
I hope this helps
alain
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 8:02 AM
Subject: Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?


> nierveze wrote:
>
>> hello thanks for your precisions,I am also doing the same
>> a few ideas:for the dc inverter what not use icl7660 ,they can give
>> you -12v,
>> you can get free samples from Maxim,just register on their site,I
>> frequently use those circuits for gaasfet lnas (I am a ham also)
>
> Ok, have som 7660 already, but I have to investigate first if they can 
> give
> the required current. http://katalogy.ic.cz/MHB1012.html means that I need
> 14mA for one IC, want to use 2 of them.
>
>> for odt the problem is that those processors do not have odt in 
>> microcrode
>> (contrary of dec's processors),so we will have to make our own program,I
>> think of using the console of the 11/34 that is here:
>> http://www.ak6dn.dyndns.org/PDP-11/M9312/
>> you will find the source,it can be modified to fill the need of the 
>> russian
>> processors ,that need the psw at adress of start+2,and recompiled.
>> but a problem is if we use dec 's program we must comply to dec's 
>> standards
>> that reques that the processor has a dl11 (or dlv11)compatible board.
>> as console,not only a uart.
>
> Yes know. I (we?) have to build the entire register structure of the DL11.
> There is the DEC DC319 (and an russian equivalent) what should do most of
> that already, but currently I have no source for that parts.
>
>> Is the soviet serie there are circuits that make this they are the
>> KR1801VM1-35 and the KR1801VM1-65
>> you can find examples of its use here:
>> http://www.emuverse.ru/downloads/computers/DVK/docs/
>> file
>> MicroEVM_Book_2.djvu
>> can you say me where you found the file that you use for your eproms?what
>> computer does it come from:bk,dvk,uknc??
>
> Don't know where I found it, but this rom resides on the DBK-2 board.
> (MC1201.02).
>
>> and where are you,maybe we are not too far??
>> best regards
>> good luck alain nierveze
> [..]
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
> -- 
>      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe,
>     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
>  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741
> 



From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 06:33:49 2011
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:33:49 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
In-Reply-To: <m1RawbG-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <20111214013648.GA11554@brevard.conman.org>
 <m1RawbG-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAL1Jhhw2RDYfF6gWXj1-t5_Y1cYKV-Pc4diNRna_yWLuaN4L1w@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 22:42, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> ? Now, a major annoyance I find are tarballs that vomit files in the curr=
>> ent
>> directory instead of a subdirectory based off the name of the tar file
>> (usually foobar.tar will, when extracted, create a directory called fooba=
>> r
>> that contains the files; but that's a *convention* not mandatory). =20
>
> Actually, I prefer tarfiles that put their files in the current
> directory. I normalyl start by creating a suitable directory somewhere,
> copying the tarfile to it and extracting it. I don't want ot used up with
> my directory containing just hte tarfile and another diesctory that is
> the start of the tree for the files I've extracted.
>
> The safexst thing to do (and what I always do now) is to tar -tvf it
> first Then you can see what it's goign to do and act accordingly.

If a tar-file unpacked its content in a subdirectory based on the name
of the tar file there would be a lot of hassle and trouble. As one
example, just imagine a backup of a full system disk. When unpacking
it it should end up in /, not in /some-tar-file-name/. And what if you
have, say, 30 different tar files that you want to unpack somewhere to
build up a tree of the files you need? If they all ended up in some
subdirectory you would have to go in afterwards and clean up. Major
job  and lots of hassle.
In any case, the tar file name may not even be known, consider 'cat
some-tar-file.tar | tar xvf  -', or 'tar xvf - < some-tar-file.tar'.

No, the way it works is the right way. And use tar tvf, as was suggested.

-Tor



From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec 15 10:21:31 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:21:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Looking for powerpc and decent graphics card for Apple Quadra 950
In-Reply-To: <1323964830.35037.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from
 silvercreekvalley at "Dec 15, 11 08:00:30 am"
Message-ID: <201112151621.pBFGLVbm017336@floodgap.com>

> I'm dusting off my Quadra 950 and thought it might be good to try and 
> upgrade it a bit if I can.
> 
> I have a fairly slow TrueColour graphics card installed at the moment, so
> I'm looking for a better quality/faster NuBus card.
> 
> I'd also like to put in a PowerPC upgrade if I can find one. I used to have
> one of these years ago, and it used to work pretty well. The Quadra has
> a PDS type slot.

For the video card, I'd look into a Thunder-class or PrecisionColor-class
NuBus card. I personally love the 8*24*GC, but acceleration doesn't work on
an '040 and performance is pretty pedestrian without the accelerator. I
have used the PrecisionColor Pro 24XK and while accelerated performance is
still a bit slower than the GC, it can be accelerated on an '040 and is still
a zippy card. People also swear by the Thunder GT.

Still, motherboard video on the Q950 is pretty fast and reasonably good
unless you need 24-bit colour.

The PPC card is where the wheels fall off. I've never been particularly
impressed with the available 601 cards, and they are a very expensive
value-for-money proposition. You can still run 8.1 on the Quadra without a
PPC upgrade, unless you want the PPC card just for yuks.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Bugs of a feather flock together. -- Russell Nelson ------------------------


From spc at conman.org  Thu Dec 15 10:36:14 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:36:14 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111215163613.GA5207@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated:
> > [41 lines of unnecessary history cut - *please* trim your quotes,
> > people!]
> 
> > [...]  You don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever
> > defective behaviour you've found in shells
> 
> To the extent that the shell is part of the OS, you do.  And that's not
> a totally unfair position; shells ship with OSes and are maintained as
> part of OSes...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let
> users change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding
> peeve of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).

  Really?  There are OSes that don't let you change the shell?  Which ones?  

  -spc (So I can avoid them ... )



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 15 11:43:02 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 09:43:02 -0800
Subject: Typesetting musical scores - Re: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA03EC.4010706@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>,
 <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>,
 <4EEA03EC.4010706@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EE9C126.20980.139FAE@cclist.sydex.com>

On 15 Dec 2011 at 9:27, Toby Thain wrote:

> There's also LilyPond. http://lilypond.org/

I believe I mentioned that one when the thread was started.  The 
problem with Lilypond is that it's like troff--straight text input.  
Straight text is usable for applications such as troff, as you're 
essentially going from text-to-text.  Try that with an orchestra 
score where you have piccolo, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, cor anglais, 3 
clarinets, 2 bassoons, 4 horns, 2 trumpets, 3 trombones, tuba, 
percussion, harp, celesta, divisi first and second violins, violas, 
'celli and double-basses--all with parallel scoring (e.g. take a look 
at the full score for "The Nutcracker"). "Cumbersome"  doesn't even 
come close to describing the situation, particularly where there are 
a lot of graphical elements involved.  There's a reason that musical 
notation is complicated.

To be sure, there are front-ends such as Rosegarden, but most are 
either in abandonment status or not ready for prime-time.  There's 
been a slight move toward using MusicXML as an interchange medium, so 
you could use your favorite WYSIWYG notation package, but MusicXML is 
not exactly an "open" standard.

--Chuck



From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 15 12:07:01 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:07:01 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <6BA27DD7-6D34-4609-8ABD-FB218C01EF7E@gmail.com>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>,
 <6BA27DD7-6D34-4609-8ABD-FB218C01EF7E@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com>

On 15 Dec 2011 at 8:53, David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 15, 2011, at 5:07 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
> 
> > BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV
> > channel frequencies.
> 
> Indeed, though it is often used (somewhat coloquially, I guess) to
> refer to the various frequency allocations per country, a la
> http://hamradio.arc.nasa.gov/ntscfreq.html.  Perhaps that's incorrect
> usage.

NTSC = National Television Systems Committee, established in 1940 
with the purpose of codifying the US national television system.    
Broadcast color TV was perhaps only a glimmer in some inventor's eye 
back then.

What NTSC were you referring to?

--Chuck



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 15 12:07:07 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:07:07 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
 <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEA374B.4000506@neurotica.com>

On 12/15/2011 08:21 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>>   http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg
>>
>> Almost laughed out loud at that one.  Seems like it would cost more to make the fake if it weren't done by the millions.
>
> Don't think that this one is real. It is on the web for years now and still
> reappearing from time to time.

   While I can't speak to the provenance of this particular one, Chinese 
component clones are a very real, very large problem in the electronics 
industry, making it into the industry news media each and every week. 
Given the state of the industry at this point, there's no reason at all 
to suspect it to be a hoax.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 12:19:34 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:19:34 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmhvG8SXERa_eaC-ALvUbyzT95GEks4NCkbzi4foGosrg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> I've NEVER seen such a "wizard" pop up, in probably two hundred runs of
>>> "apt-get install".
>
> Oh yes, there are quite a few of those (now that I understand what he
> means). Examples:
> - msttcorefonts
> - Sun JVM
> - gdm, lightdm or other change of dm

My reaction the first time I tried to install the Sun JVM and it
popped up this interactive thing was a loud and resounding WTF?

I'm wrestling right now with a scripted JVM install (for a server) and
lack of examples for doing that exact thing for the 32-bit version of
the JRE on a 64-bit machine (required because of the needs of the Java
app).

I love UNIX.  This is not one of the fun parts of it, but I'd rather
be doing this than what most of the IT world does everyday.

-ethan


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 15 12:46:45 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:46:45 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEA4095.6010402@neurotica.com>

On 12/15/2011 05:45 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> I get them all the time at "apt-get install" and the like on my Debian
>>> box at work.
>>
>>
>>   Then don't run Debian. ;)  I run Ubuntu (yes I know, Debian-based) and
> I've NEVER seen such a "wizard" pop up, in probably two hundred runs of
> "apt-get install".
>
> Oh yes, there are quite a few of those (now that I understand what he
> means). Examples:
> - msttcorefonts
> - Sun JVM
> - gdm, lightdm or other change of dm
> - LGHP

   Interesting, I've installed none of these packages, except Sun's JVM, 
and I didn't install that via the repository. :)

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 15 12:47:09 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:47:09 -0500
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEA40AD.8040100@neurotica.com>

On 12/15/2011 09:52 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> [41 lines of unnecessary history cut - *please* trim your quotes,
>> people!]
>
>> [...]  You don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever
>> defective behaviour you've found in shells
>
> To the extent that the shell is part of the OS, you do.  And that's not
> a totally unfair position; shells ship with OSes and are maintained as
> part of OSes...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let
> users change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding
> peeve of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).

   Urr?  Do you mean the whole /etc/shells thing?  That has been around 
for a very long time.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec 15 12:48:53 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:48:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>, 
 <6BA27DD7-6D34-4609-8ABD-FB218C01EF7E@gmail.com>
 <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111215103419.O75444@shell.lmi.net>

> > > BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV
> > > channel frequencies.
> > Indeed, though it is often used (somewhat coloquially, I guess) to
> > refer to the various frequency allocations per country, a la
> > http://hamradio.arc.nasa.gov/ntscfreq.html.  Perhaps that's incorrect
> > usage.

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> NTSC = National Television Systems Committee, established in 1940
> with the purpose of codifying the US national television system.
> Broadcast color TV was perhaps only a glimmer in some inventor's eye
> back then.
> What NTSC were you referring to?

Never Twice the Same Color
(as opposed to Picture Always Lousy, and what DOES SECAM stand for?)


I've been using "almost-NTSC" to refer to the not-quite-meeting-standards
entire TV encoding protocol used by USA "home" computers' output for
display by ordinary USA analog TV sets. Sometimes subdivided into
"almost-NTSC RF" and "almost-NTSC composite" (should be called
"baseband"?)
Such usage is presumably wrong, and probably almost as offensive to those
who know better as calling ST506/ST412 compatible drives, "MFM drives".
What SHOULD such be called?  (any answer that calls for an appellation
using a complete description longer than a line of text will be
thoroughly ignored :-)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Dec 15 12:49:59 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:49:59 -0800
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
Message-ID: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>

Not affiliated with the seller... Looks interesting but in rough shape.  Anyone know more about this thing?

260917141380

Josh


From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca  Thu Dec 15 12:51:21 2011
From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:51:21 -0700
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
Message-ID: <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>

On 12/15/2011 9:05 AM, TeoZ wrote:

> The problem is engineering tools got better and better so the fudge
> factor needed to make sure the part lasted as long as it was designed
> for got lower and lower. Metal use dropped as plastics got stronger, so
> parts get brittle with age instead of lasting forever. Things like this
> are done to make parts cheaper to compete better (basically to squeeze
> more profit out of something), so we have items designed to fail after
> the warranty expires. The cheaper something is sold for the shorter the
> warranty needed so by design things become cheaper and disposable.
>

Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
Ben.




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 15 12:54:43 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:54:43 -0500
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmhvG8SXERa_eaC-ALvUbyzT95GEks4NCkbzi4foGosrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210195147.bdb91c21.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCEwtyhqPoOKkwG-o19EREgYa5smcwxsSbLGat8m_7jaOg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111210224507.734dc944.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCGnKi-OF7zX-GPyyW6uHcOa40Evgz+jHjR21SPVZcyHdg@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmhvG8SXERa_eaC-ALvUbyzT95GEks4NCkbzi4foGosrg@mail.gmai
 l.com>
Message-ID: <4EEA4273.1070000@neurotica.com>

On 12/15/2011 01:19 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> I'm wrestling right now with a scripted JVM install (for a server) and
> lack of examples for doing that exact thing for the 32-bit version of
> the JRE on a 64-bit machine (required because of the needs of the Java
> app).
>
> I love UNIX.  This is not one of the fun parts of it, but I'd rather
> be doing this than what most of the IT world does everyday.

   "fdisk, format, reinstall, do-dah, do-dah..."

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec 15 13:07:53 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:07:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20111215105543.H75444@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Christian Corti wrote:
> You can cable anything you like. If that will work is another question ;-)

BTDT

> Seriously, the OP should just a VCR as a receiver/demodulator and feed the
> (C)VBS signal into an appropriate monitor (some modern flat panel displays
> have an RCA and/or S-Video input; or just use a video monitor, or
> better: just buy (or get for free) an old TV).

My recommendation is/was the "Digital Prism" (~$50 7" HDTV that can do
analog, (and has very good CC display))  THAT, and my new Philips 19" are
the first TVs that I have ever owned with working internal tuners - I
ALWAYS used VCRs and/or cable boxes, and in the case of a cable box with
RF out, followed by a CC converter that included RF in and "composite"
out.


> The whole discussion is on the niveau of saying "I don't need electricity,
> but I want to use my electric toaster. What can I do?".

But, to THIS group, that is just a "challenge"
Howzbout: heat ceramic tiles in a fire, then put them into the crumb tray?


> BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV
> channel frequencies.

I conflated NTSC with the entire signal, but did NOT use that to refer to
the channel/frequency.  i.e. "almost-NTSC on USA channel 3"
I was under the [mis]impression that color encoding was but one part of
the standard.  Sorry.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec 15 13:10:47 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:10:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20111215110821.S75444@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Christian Corti wrote:
> You can cable anything you like. If that will work is another question ;-)

Should I admit that my first 5.25" drive interface to 8" drive cabling
was based on a solderless plug-board?




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec 15 13:26:09 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 11:26:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111215111548.R75444@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
> But that's a nonsensical conclusion, by the reasoning I gave above. You
> don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever defective
> behaviour you've found in shells (still unclear what that is, unless we
> are still talking about the faux-DOS command that failed to DWIM).

In MS-DOS, . . .
PC-DOS 1.xx, as one of the appendices in the manual included a [somewhat
oversimplified] description of the requirements for a replacement CLI to
use in place of COMMAND.COM   30 years ago, they explicitly made provision
for replacing COMMAND.COM with alternative CLIs or even GUIs!
Instead of doing exactly that, the replacements, even those from MICROS~1,
were all just layered on top of COMMAND.COM

It becomes necessary to differentiate which intolerable issues (such as
those involving filenames) are part of the CLI, and which are built into
the "File Manager" (IBMDOS.COM/MSDOS.SYS), such as the FCB structure, and
which are in the "hardware interface" (IBMBIO.COM/IO.SYS, ROM BIOS)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 13:30:00 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:30:00 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111215103419.O75444@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>,
 <6BA27DD7-6D34-4609-8ABD-FB218C01EF7E@gmail.com>
 <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111215103419.O75444@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4AEC7196-808D-47CC-B4C8-D9AE6B7830B6@gmail.com>


On Dec 15, 2011, at 1:48 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> Never Twice the Same Color
> (as opposed to Picture Always Lousy, and what DOES SECAM stand for?)

Smelly Europeans Can Access Me? (apologies for the horrible stereotype)

- Dave



From jfoust at threedee.com  Thu Dec 15 14:01:03 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:01:03 -0600
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111215103419.O75444@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
 <6BA27DD7-6D34-4609-8ABD-FB218C01EF7E@gmail.com>
 <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111215103419.O75444@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201112152001.pBFK148R030924@billy.ezwind.net>

At 12:48 PM 12/15/2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
>I've been using "almost-NTSC" to refer to the not-quite-meeting-standards
>entire TV encoding protocol used by USA "home" computers' output for
>display by ordinary USA analog TV sets. Sometimes subdivided into
>"almost-NTSC RF" and "almost-NTSC composite" (should be called
>"baseband"?)

Those terms sound pretty good to me.  I've tried to think of what
else it might've been called informally...  certainly just "RF"
but maybe "RF composite"?  Wikipedia didn't offer any suggestions.

- John



From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec 15 14:22:50 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:22:50 -0700
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
In-Reply-To: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <E1RbHpK-0007NK-VX@shell.xmission.com>


In article <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003 at billy.ezwind.net>,
    Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu> writes:

> Not affiliated with the seller... Looks interesting but in rough shape.  Anyo
ne know more about this thing?
> 
> 260917141380

Looks like it's an older version of the CompuTyper described on bitsavers
<http://bitsavers.org/pdf/friden/74-204_Friden_Computyper_Brochure.pdf>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 14:23:10 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:23:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EEA40AD.8040100@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEA40AD.8040100@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112152023.PAA20162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> ...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let users
>> change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding peeve
>> of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).
> Urr?  Do you mean the whole /etc/shells thing?

Yes.  /etc/shells isn't all that catastrophic, but getusershell() is,
and the two are far too closely tied together in practice.

> That has been around for a very long time.

Not all that long.  I think it was post-4.3, wasn't it?  Maybe even
post-4.4Lite, though I'm fuzzier on that, since I never used anything
post-4.4 until I first got involved with NetBSD.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 15 14:27:21 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 12:27:21 -0800
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111215111548.R75444@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>, <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <20111215111548.R75444@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EE9E7A9.24193.AA0FB4@cclist.sydex.com>

On 15 Dec 2011 at 11:26, Fred Cisin wrote:

 In MS-DOS, . . .
> PC-DOS 1.xx, as one of the appendices in the manual included a
> [somewhat oversimplified] description of the requirements for a
> replacement CLI to use in place of COMMAND.COM   30 years ago, they
> explicitly made provision for replacing COMMAND.COM with alternative
> CLIs or even GUIs! Instead of doing exactly that, the replacements,
> even those from MICROS~1, were all just layered on top of COMMAND.COM

JP Software is still at it, having started with CLI replacements for 
DOS (4DOS), WinNT (4NT) and OS/2 (4OS2).  Their current offering for 
Windows is called (more flashy) Take Command and is well worth 
investigating, if you're like me and spend a lot of your time staring 
at a command prompt.

--Chuck



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 14:29:31 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:29:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111215163613.GA5207@brevard.conman.org>
References: <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111215163613.GA5207@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <201112152029.PAA20258@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> ...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let users
>> change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding peeve
>> of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).
> Really?  There are OSes that don't let you change the shell?  Which
> ones?

Most of them, by this time.  Check the documentation for
getusershell(3); if it exists, the OS is part of the precipitate.

New shells have to be specifically blessed by the admin.  (Hmm,
actually, by someone who can write /etc/shells.  I suppose an admin
could chmod 666 /etc/shells, which would fix much of the problem it was
supposedly invented to fix and still let people use shells of their
choosing.  The problem then becomes all the external software written
by people who don't realize what a horrible idea getusershell() is....)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Thu Dec 15 15:02:02 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 13:02:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Typesetting musical scores - Re: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA03EC.4010706@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>
 <4EE8B2C1.7241.F4588D@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111215060006.GC2031@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EEA03EC.4010706@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112151301430.15918@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Toby Thain wrote:

> On 15/12/11 1:00 AM, Sean Conner wrote:
>> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated:
>>> 
>>> I don't think that Knuth ever brought up the subject of musical
>>> notation, however.  If he has, it would make interesting reading.
>>
>>    In both _Metamagical Themas_ and _Godel, Escher, Bach_, Douglas 
>> Hofstadter
>> used a program called SMUT to layout and print musical scores.  SMUT was
>> written by Donald Byrd at Indiana University.  And from the examples given,
>> it does an incredible job.
>
> There's also LilyPond. http://lilypond.org/

No mention of MusixTeX?


-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From als at thangorodrim.de  Thu Dec 15 15:42:59 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:42:59 +0100
Subject: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmhvG8SXERa_eaC-ALvUbyzT95GEks4NCkbzi4foGosrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20111212042524.GF12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCE1S=i99Jcb+R526i2utq_2nCQr40erADbZDPSo+AcGXQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212221943.3f45f4c4.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <20111213031253.GC15005@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <20111213181818.fd4801fb.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <CAMTenCERY3Tv--1QsYExx3hGm+UdSwKRQNANrqG+qRS=vE5wcQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111214201154.e9b0ed52.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <4EE8F748.1070109@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCFi05cr0+J99dB0vy8QexF6xGtODw5N3OFyuFXfw82yHw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmimmhvG8SXERa_eaC-ALvUbyzT95GEks4NCkbzi4foGosrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111215214259.GA24040@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 01:19:34PM -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 5:45 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> I've NEVER seen such a "wizard" pop up, in probably two hundred runs of
> >>> "apt-get install".
> >
> > Oh yes, there are quite a few of those (now that I understand what he
> > means). Examples:
> > - msttcorefonts
> > - Sun JVM
> > - gdm, lightdm or other change of dm
> 
> My reaction the first time I tried to install the Sun JVM and it
> popped up this interactive thing was a loud and resounding WTF?

You can thank Sun (and now Orrible) for that.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Thu Dec 15 15:54:17 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:54:17 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112152023.PAA20162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEA40AD.8040100@neurotica.com>
 <201112152023.PAA20162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111215215417.GC24040@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 03:23:10PM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> >> ...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let users
> >> change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding peeve
> >> of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).
> > Urr?  Do you mean the whole /etc/shells thing?
> 
> Yes.  /etc/shells isn't all that catastrophic, but getusershell() is,
> and the two are far too closely tied together in practice.
> 
> > That has been around for a very long time.
> 
> Not all that long.  I think it was post-4.3, wasn't it?  Maybe even
> post-4.4Lite, though I'm fuzzier on that, since I never used anything
> post-4.4 until I first got involved with NetBSD.

Quoting getusershell(3): "The getusershell() function appeared in 4.3BSD."

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Thu Dec 15 15:52:22 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:52:22 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111215163613.GA5207@brevard.conman.org>
References: <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA05E1.5070500@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112151452.JAA15428@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111215163613.GA5207@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <20111215215222.GB24040@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 11:36:14AM -0500, Sean Conner wrote:
> It was thus said that the Great Mouse once stated:
> > > [41 lines of unnecessary history cut - *please* trim your quotes,
> > > people!]
> > 
> > > [...]  You don't have to change the operating system to fix whatever
> > > defective behaviour you've found in shells
> > 
> > To the extent that the shell is part of the OS, you do.  And that's not
> > a totally unfair position; shells ship with OSes and are maintained as
> > part of OSes...and, in recent years, OSes have strated refusing to let
> > users change their shells to user-provided programs (a longstanding
> > peeve of mine, exacerbated by the broken design of the API behind it).
> 
>   Really?  There are OSes that don't let you change the shell?  Which ones?  

Well, the standard setup on NetBSD and typical Linux (tested on Debian)
at least. Limiting the users shell choice to whatever is in /etc/shells
is, however, not that uncommon.

Of course root can always attack /etc/passwd with vi ...

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 15 16:12:21 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:12:21 -0800
Subject: Typesetting musical scores - Re: Word Perfect 5.1 Documents?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112151301430.15918@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <4EE90432.5080208@tx.rr.com>,
 <4EEA03EC.4010706@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112151301430.15918@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <4EEA0045.23533.10A2FFB@cclist.sydex.com>

On 15 Dec 2011 at 13:02, David Griffith wrote:

> > There's also LilyPond. http://lilypond.org/
> 
> No mention of MusixTeX?

The last place I saw MusixTeX used was in the Werner Icking archive.  
While much of the archive's library started out with MT-trascribed 
music, almost none of the later stuff did, particularly after Werner 
died.  Now that the WIMA contents are shared with IMSLP, I suspect 
that WIMA itself may go by the wayside eventually.

I looked at MusiXTeX a long time ago and it did not seem easy to use--
and would require almost superhuman effort to support a full 
orchestra score.  Maybe my memory is faulty, however.

--Chuck



From eric at brouhaha.com  Thu Dec 15 16:42:32 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 14:42:32 -0800
Subject: "first" computer on the internet
In-Reply-To: <5E8A7DF6-C263-42A8-90C2-1B9822C6541C@gmail.com>
References: <BLU139-W3607C4B814B1B78E53289BC9890@phx.gbl>
 <a7fd63fa0807172038g77880b6ah16061538ede22cec@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU139-W20D9EE639576FF6E383694C9890@phx.gbl>
 <18560.57014.880230.788336@gargle.gargle.HOWL>
 <BLU139-W454FAA9139E99142E645E1C98B0@phx.gbl>
 <20080720161349.GA32554@brevard.conman.org>
 <20080720095629.D54554@shell.lmi.net>
 <004001c8ea8e$1e8fdf20$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>
 <48838CDA.90205@ptdprolog.net> <4883E716.5050505@gmail.com>
 <20111204200343.U33588@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAOPi=7C=8JAtX9RSo=HA40A1hhjaHyK9tB-O-EZf85__4JoLRA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EDD80C0.4030808@compsys.to>
 <CAED7072-D2D1-426B-ABA6-21A820AF05DD@gmail.com> <4EDE42D8.9030105@gmail.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E5158@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <4EDF6CAA.7010505@gmail.com> <5E8A7DF6-C263-42A8-90C2-1B9822C6541C@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEA77D8.1010602@brouhaha.com>

Jules Richardson wrote:
>  Of course my guess is that the OP wanted a general-purpose
>  computer running a non-specialised OS which came with its
>  own TCP/IP stack built-in rather than as an add-on

Mark Benson wrote:
 > If you insist on a general purpose machine with a built-in
 > TCP/IP stack then you aren't looking at a true representation
 > in my mind.

A true representation of what?

The idea Jules describes, of "a non-specialized OS which came with its 
own TCP/IP stack built-in", existed at least as early as August 1983, in 
the form of BSD 4.2.  Since the TCP/IP internet only came into existence 
on January 1. 1983, there aren't likely to be too many that were 
earlier.  (BSD 4.1a had TCP/IP in April 1982, but was not intended for 
public distribution.)

If you include NCP, the predecessor of TCP/IP, then TOPS-20AN qualifies 
and was released before 1978.

>  I had been using the Internet for 2 years (on Windows 3.1) before
>  we got a computer with a TCP/IP stack built into the OS (Windows 95)

There was certainly not any non-specialized OS for PCs (or other 
microcomputers)  with bulit-in TCP/IP until *much* later than BSD 4.2.  
Microsoft need not apply.




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 16:13:05 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:13:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EE958E9.7010408@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 14,
 11 09:18:17 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbJY5-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/14/2011 08:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
> > On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
> > but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
> > where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
> > running class A).
> 
>    Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb 
> outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)

I thoguht in the end he amanged ot get the FET cirucit to be better than 
the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it). 

> 
>    That's a fascinating read; I'll try to find a pointer if you're 
> interested. (I have the saga in a paper book, "Analog Circuit Design: 
> Art, Science, and Personalites", one of my favorite books)

YEs, a great book. Along with Bob Pease's book ('Analog circuit 
troubleshooting' or soemthign like that). Well worth reading.

> 
> >> I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain research
> >> student.
> >
> > Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.
> 
>    I'll let Tony wax poetic about that. :)  That was my reference to the 
> incandescent bulb.

YEs, I guessed as much....

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 15:39:50 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:39:50 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <D37BF0B0-BEF7-4871-B425-558B4BF68E8F@gmail.com> from "David
 Riley" at Dec 14, 11 06:49:16 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbJ21-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On Dec 14, 2011, at 5:31 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > AFAIK from reading hte manuals, the US CoCOs have a VHF modulator 
> > switchable (esternal swithc on the rear of the machine) to channel 3 or 
> > 4.. The outptu is an RCA phone socket. 
> 
> This was pretty common practice over here in the '80s; Most game 
> consoles, computers which could connect over RF and VCRs had a choice of 

In most cases the modulator was a bought-in module (one popular brand, at 
least over here was Astec). IIRC there was a pin on the modulator to 
select channel 3 of 4 (it was tied to one of the supply lines for one of 
the channels, left open for the other I think), It's not supring that 
many devices that used such modualtors also had the swithc connected to 
this pin.

Over here, the common modualtors did not have a channel select input. 
They were noramlly pre-tuned for our UHF channel 36,. It was possible to 
tweak them onto other channels by adjusting one of the cores. 

This is OK for comptuer and the like, where the computer is the only 
thing conencted to the TV aerial input at the tiem ,but VCRs, of course, 
also pass on the bradcast channels. So the output of a VCR had to be 
tunable to avoid interfering with said boradcast channels, often there 
was n external tweaker for this. THe later VCRs ,adn things like DVD 
recorders (if they support RF output) have this configurable on a setup 
menu.

> channel 3 or 4.  The RCA jack usually cabled to a coupling box with an 
> F-connector input and output to pass the other signals through; my 

I sem ot rememebr that some US TVs have a balanced 300 ohm aerial input, 
and that this boc is also a Balun (the modulator output is always 
unbalanced, 75 Ohm). 

> Our VHF channels go from 2 to 13 (I don't remember the story behind 
> why channel 1 is missing) and UHF covers 4 to... 68?  Most of time the 3 
> major networks ran on VHF, because it reached further; we always had a 
> harder time receiving the UHF channels at home when I was growing up.
>

We used ot haev VHF television channels, they were used for the alas 
long-dead System A 405 line system. Channels 1-5 were 'band 1' and were 
used for the BBC transmitters (there was only one BBC programme at a 
given tume, all the transmitters transmitted the smae thing). Channels 6 
to 13 (IRIC) were Band 3, used for the independant television (again, 
only one programme -- that's right, you had a choice of 2 things to 
wath). 

Band 2 was the FM radio broadcast band (88 to 108MHz ro so). 

The UHF channels are (soon to be 'were') used for the 625 lin Sysmte I 
transm,issions. Originally, the only thing here weas a second BBC channel 
(different programmes), the 405 line programems were not duplciared here. 
This led to 'dual standard' TV sets, whcih could be switched ot receive 
either. On the groudns that the line frequency was differnet, the 
transmisison frequency was differnet (UHF or VHF), the video moulation 
polarity was reversed, and that the sound o nthe VHF transmissions was AM 
and on the UHF transmisison FM, this meant a lot of switching!

LAter on, the 405 line tranmssions were duplciated on 625 lines, so all 
you needed asa 625 line set. 

Ther never was colour on the 405 line broadcasts. This meand that for a 
time, only BBC2 was in colour. Of course osme of the early colour TVs 
could receive 405 line transmissions (in monochrome, of course). Those 
sets were nto simple...

Somewher I ahve a list of the UK channel numbers and their frequencies...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 15:50:05 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:50:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111214154553.D48542@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 14,
 11 04:21:57 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbJBt-000J49C@p850ug1>

> > If you made no conenction to the RF output socket of a CoCo or the 5 pin
> > DIN video ouput (composite video and +5V) of a model 1, how ever did you
> > view the output of these machines?
> 
> When I bought my first TRS80, it was available for $600 with monitor and
> cassette, or $400 without monitor nor cassette.  The store manager, in
> spite of it being the first one that had come in, was willing to commit
> that if I were to be unsuccessful, then I could but the monitor by itself
> for $200 (I would still be short the cassette (another $50)).  I had a
> Sony 11" TV/monitor (same as sold for use with both CV and AV series
> VTRs), with UHF connectors, a "Honda" connector, and both UHF and VHF
> knobs broken off - I have no idea whether the tuner in it worked.
> 
> In both cases, I WAITED UNTIL I GOT HOME before I opened the computer
> case.   (I'm not a hardware person)
>

Err, yes... I think I've only ever once dismantled a computer on the way 
home, and that was a DECmate II (whcih cna be taken apart without tools...)
 
> Then I connected clip leads from where I thought the composite video was
> to a composite monitor.  Once I confirmed that there was, indeed, usable
> composite there, I drilled a hole, and soldered in an RCA jack

Sinec there s composite output on one of hte pins of hte DIN socket (and 
a techncial manual giving the pinout was availagble i nthe Radio Shack 
shops over here -- the service manual for the monitor had to be ordered 
though), I wonder why you voided the wwrranty just for that. Why not 
solder the wires to a 5 pin DIN plug and stick it in the right hole?

> Later, I was given another TRS80, WITH the stock monitor.  There was an
> aweful lot of empty space where the tuner would have been in that RCA
> based TV turned monitor.  (One of THAT model RCA TVs was appropriately in

Indeed. It's a modified portable TV. I the states (110V mains), it's a 
hot chassis, hence the opto-isolator on the modification boatd plugged in 
place of the IF strip (and the need for a 5V supply fed over th DIN plug 
from the TRS-80  to power the LED driver on the 'computer' side fo the 
isolation barrleir. Sicne the chassis couldn't easily be modified for 
230V mains, in Euripe they fitted a step-down transofmrer inside the 
monitor case to probvide 110V -- and they used an isolating transformer. 
Over here, the mointor chassis is not conencted ot the mains, and the 
interfacew board is just a transisotr buffer. It doesn't ened a 5V input 
-- that wire from the DIN plug ends up on an unconnected pad on the PCB.

> the background on Al Bundy's kitchen counter)  So, I cut a large
> rectangular hole in the front of the monitor case and mounted a full
> height 5.25" (Tandon TM100-1) drive and power supply to the right of the
> CRT.  I added some mu-metal (sp?)  around it.

Hmmm.. I am not sure I'd want a disk drive that close to the monitor 
electornics...

Whad did you do with the CoCo? tap of the composite signal inside?

> 
> 
> But the MOST important modification that I made to my model I was putting
> some nut-serts into the base and bolting the CPU and EI (and an outlet
> strip) to a piece of plywood so that the cable didn't flex (and a small
> notch in the front of the EI for the CPU power cord without excess cables
> flopping around)   I never got around to mounting a DB25 and solidly
> mounting the RS232 (_RADIO_ _SHACK_ 232).

Thsi was even more inportant with the CoCo and a Multpak interface. If 
those moved relative to each other and some contacts opened 
intermittantly, you had a system crash. If you were unlucky, you fried a 
few chips...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 16:19:25 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:19:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home> from
 "Christian Corti" at Dec 15, 11 11:07:09 am
Message-ID: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>

> 
> On Wed, 14 Dec 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > But, at the moment, all that we care about is whether we can cable from an
> > "RCA jack" and whether it can tune in the almost-NTSC USA "channel 3" put
> > out by the RF modulator in a Coco.
> 
> You can cable anything you like. If that will work is another question ;-)
> Seriously, the OP should just a VCR as a receiver/demodulator and feed the 
> (C)VBS signal into an appropriate monitor (some modern flat panel displays 
> have an RCA and/or S-Video input; or just use a video monitor, or 
> better: just buy (or get for free) an old TV).
> The whole discussion is on the niveau of saying "I don't need electricity, 
> but I want to use my electric toaster. What can I do?".

I am inlcuned to agree wit hthat. The OP doesn't want to modify his CoCo 
(that's up to him, and he doesn;t have a TV. But a thing that receives 
and demodulates VHF TV signals amd then displays them has the 
functionality of a TV, and might as well be called one. And that's what 
he actualyl needs. Whether it's a TV set (sold as such), a VCR tuner 
followed by a composite monitor,m or a TV card in a PC.
 
> BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV 
> channel frequencies.

I thought 'NTSC' was 'National Television Standerds Committee'. If so, I 
would be suprised if the only thing they ever standardised was a colour 
encoding system. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 15:54:33 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:54:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112150039.TAA03776@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 14, 11 07:39:18 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbJGA-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> 
> >>>> I considered trying to build some kind of AGC for it, [...]
> >>> Perhaps an incandescent light bulb might help out there. =3D)
> >> Perhaps.
> > Plese don't tell you you didn't get the reference.
> 
> Okay.
> 
> >> But it requires enough current flowing in the feedback divider to
> >> warm the bulb's filament significantly.  I'd rather avoid
> >> dissipating that much power - not to mention that I'm not sure the
> >> op-amp I was using was capable of it.
> > There are some pretty low current light bulbs (such as ones that glow
> > to their specified intenisty at 20ma (with 6V across them).
> 
> 120 mW is more power than the whole circuit was drawing, I think (this
> was quite a while ago).

Yes, but you certainly don't ahve the bulb running at full brightness. I 
woudl think arund 50mW would be more like it.

If this is an experimental 1-off circuit, the power consumed is not that 
important (probided your bench PSU cna handle the current, I've yet to se 
oen that couldn't handle that!). If it's a 'permanent' or production 
device, you need some way of stabilisign the amplitude.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 16:05:36 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:05:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 14, 11 08:14:23 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbJQt-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> > IIRC mo purely linear system can produce stable oscillations (any
> > small change will either cause said oscilaltiosn to colalpse to zero
> > or to grow ithout limit (or more practically untyil the signal hits
> > the supply rails).
> 
> On the one hand, that feels right.
> 
> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
> but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
> where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
> running class A).

I was using 'linear' in its mathemtical sense. A linear sysnmte is one 
such that if input A gives oputput B, then input kA (k a constant 
multiplier) gives output kB (same k). And if input C gives outptu D, then 
input A+C must give output B+D.

It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not 
linear. If we increase the input signal (multiply it by a suffiicenlty 
large 'k'), the gain drops, so the output is less that you might expect. 

 
> > I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain research
> > student.
> 
> Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.

Oh dear, oh dear...

We need to think back to the early 1930s. The problem was to produce an 
adjustable audio oscilaltor. LC oscillators were impractical because 
the L and C needed were large, and it's difficult to make a 1uF variable 
capacitor (say). And the indcutoir is likle to be iron-cored, which is 
likely to be non-linear.

The normal way it was done at the time was to have 2 RF oscillators 
(such thigns couple be made adjustable fairly easily) -- one fied, the 
other variable. The outputs were mixed and the differnvee frequency 
extrcted. That was the audio output. One big problem was that if the 2 
oscilators were at similar frequencies (to get a low freqeuncy otuput), 
they had a habit ot interfering with each other. THis either led to them 
jumping into lcok (so the output frequency became 0), or at least 
producing a very distorted differnce signal. 

The solution was to make an RC oscilaltor. Large adjustable resisotrs are 
perfectly possible, and can be used in such a cirucit with fixed capacitors.

Fred Terman was a professor of electrical engineerign at Stanford (IIRC). 
He had a research student working on this, and said student made an RC 
oscilaltor using a Wein bridge network as the frequency-dependant part, 
the gai nwas stailbied by having a small filamanet bulb as one of the 
gian-control resistors in the amplifier. It worked well, in fact it 
backame a commercial product.

The name of this student was William Hewlett. The product was the model 
200A audio oscillator.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 16:34:56 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:34:56 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 15, 11 10:07:01 am
Message-ID: <m1RbJtD-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> NTSC = National Television Systems Committee, established in 1940 
> with the purpose of codifying the US national television system.    
> Broadcast color TV was perhaps only a glimmer in some inventor's eye 
> back then.

This reminds me of a related question that I dont know the answer to.

The terms'PAL' and 'SECAM' refer to the method used ot encode the colour 
information, they do not say who designed it, or the scan rates/ number 
of lines used. It is, AFIAK, perfectly correct ot talk about a 525 line 
PAL signal, IIRC that's PAL-N

But an NTSC colour signal implies not only the colour encoding, but also 
the scan rates (60Hz vertical, 2 way inerlacesd, 525 lines) etc. 

So my question is : If you use ''NTSC-like' colour encoding (phase angle 
is the hue, amplitude is the saturation -- think of it as being PAL 
without the altehrnate line flip) on a 625 line 50Hz vertical svideo 
signal, what do you call it? Coloquially it's often called 'NTSC 50Hz, or 
even NTSC-I (or NTSC-B/G) but those names are clearly wrogn if you're 
being pedantic about it. What is the right neam?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 16:09:33 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:09:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Dec
 14, 11 08:29:52 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbJUk-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> > Amazingly the service manual for our LCD TV doesn't contain a schematic
> > of the PSU board (it's unclear why not, one page says for 'safety reasosn
> > the pSU must not be field-repaired',
> 
> That is because they want you to buy a whole new monitor when the crappy 
> Chinese electrolytics swell up and die.

Although they do expect me to repair the signal-prpocessing PCB... 

In any case I regard the information in service manuals ot be jsut that 
-- information. I don't follow it blindly. Of course I read the service 
manual, but sometimes I don't do what it suggests. As here. If the PSU 
failed, you cna be sure I'd have a go at fixing it (and lack of a 
scheamtic doens't always make repari impossible...)

[In much the same way, while I reer to many modern service manauls as 
'boardswapepr guides', I do read them if theyr'e available. I am not 
going to start swapping boards, but I might was sell get all the 
informatio nI can before I dive in with the 'scope.

> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a 

Right...

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 15 16:38:41 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:38:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111215103419.O75444@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 15,
 11 10:48:53 am
Message-ID: <m1RbJwr-000J4WC@p850ug1>

> > What NTSC were you referring to?
> 
> Never Twice the Same Color
> (as opposed to Picture Always Lousy, and what DOES SECAM stand for?)

_Some_British engineers expand PAL as 'Perfection At Last' :-)

SECAM == System Essentially Contrary to American Methods

-tony



From legalize at xmission.com  Thu Dec 15 16:50:10 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:50:10 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
Message-ID: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>

Moved into shelving:
- DEC terminals
- X terminals (NCD, Tektronix, HP)
- AT&T 5620 terminals
- TEC desktop terminal
- Nuclear Data ND600 and ND6600 terminals
- Personal Iris

Moved into rack:
- DLT tape drives
- HP X-Y display
- TEC rackmount terminals

Nuclear Data gear (rack plus terminals) was relocated adjacnet to each
other.

<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/sprawl4/index.html>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec 15 17:11:32 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:11:32 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111215105543.H75444@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RaDSY-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112131204.pBDC4JZp023609@imr-ma06.mx.aol.com>
 <201112131431.pBDEVIm9059679@billy.ezwind.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112141109530.10473@linuxserv.home>
 <20111214120836.H42043@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112151059440.8132@linuxserv.home>
 <20111215105543.H75444@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <74A8E776-321E-4062-B2B3-DA1D50C49798@cs.ubc.ca>


On 2011 Dec 15, at 11:07 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Christian Corti wrote:
>> You can cable anything you like. If that will work is another  
>> question ;-)
>
> BTDT
>
>> Seriously, the OP should just a VCR as a receiver/demodulator and  
>> feed the
>> (C)VBS signal into an appropriate monitor (some modern flat panel  
>> displays
>> have an RCA and/or S-Video input; or just use a video monitor, or
>> better: just buy (or get for free) an old TV).
>
> My recommendation is/was the "Digital Prism" (~$50 7" HDTV that can do
> analog, (and has very good CC display))  THAT, and my new Philips  
> 19" are
> the first TVs that I have ever owned with working internal tuners - I
> ALWAYS used VCRs and/or cable boxes, and in the case of a cable box  
> with
> RF out, followed by a CC converter that included RF in and "composite"
> out.
>
>
>> The whole discussion is on the niveau of saying "I don't need  
>> electricity,
>> but I want to use my electric toaster. What can I do?".
>
> But, to THIS group, that is just a "challenge"
> Howzbout: heat ceramic tiles in a fire, then put them into the  
> crumb tray?
>
>
>> BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV
>> channel frequencies.
>
> I conflated NTSC with the entire signal, but did NOT use that to  
> refer to
> the channel/frequency.  i.e. "almost-NTSC on USA channel 3"
> I was under the [mis]impression that color encoding was but one  
> part of
> the standard.  Sorry.

There seems to be some confusion/debate about what the "NTSC  
standard" defines. I've seen it asserted by others/elsewhere that the  
"NTSC standard" refers to only the colour-encoding or colour-encoded  
video signal, and does not refer to the (earlier) B&W-only signal. I  
always understood it to include the latter and predate the colour spec.

There are 4 'standards' being discussed/specified:

1. the baseband B&W video signal (encoding of sync timing and luminance)
2. how to modulate an RF carrier with that video signal (mod type,  
channel width, audio mod and carrier, etc.)
3. the addition of colour information to (1)
4. the broadcast channel frequencies on which to transmit (2)

My understanding is the NTSC agreed upon and specified (1) & (2) in  
1940.
The FCC accepted this for (US) national broadcast TV.
The FCC dictated (4), albeit with some lobbying and influences.
The NTSC specified (3) in 1953 and the FCC accepted this also.

RS-170 also figures in this, but I understand RS-170 came quite a bit  
later and really just takes (1) and adds the specification of voltage  
levels, for the interconnection of equipment using that type of  
signal (baseband, no RF). Without looking it up, I think the NTSC  
standard only specified relative levels in (1) as it was only  
concerned with broadcast requirements when developed.

Here's one history of the channel frequencies and NTSC standards:
   http://www.tech-notes.tv/History&Trivia/Channel%20One/Channel_1.htm



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 15 17:24:44 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:24:44 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJY5-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RbJY5-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEA81BC.8090007@neurotica.com>

On 12/15/2011 05:13 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
>>> but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
>>> where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
>>> running class A).
>>
>>     Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb
>> outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)
>
> I thoguht in the end he amanged ot get the FET cirucit to be better than
> the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).

   No.  His initial attempt with a FET didn't perform all that well (if 
memory serves), but in the end his very complex circuit with (I think) 
three high-end opamps and an LED-driven photocell did end up 
outperforming the incandescent lamp design.

>>     That's a fascinating read; I'll try to find a pointer if you're
>> interested. (I have the saga in a paper book, "Analog Circuit Design:
>> Art, Science, and Personalites", one of my favorite books)
>
> YEs, a great book. Along with Bob Pease's book ('Analog circuit
> troubleshooting' or soemthign like that). Well worth reading.

   I shall have to obtain a copy of this book.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec 15 17:26:35 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:26:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJBt-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RbJBt-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111215151031.Y84160@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
> Sinec there s composite output on one of hte pins of hte DIN socket (and
> a techncial manual giving the pinout was availagble i nthe Radio Shack
> shops over here -- the service manual for the monitor had to be ordered
> though), I wonder why you voided the wwrranty just for that.

Because I had some Glyptol (tamper-evident paint), to re-instate the
warranty :-)   Later, in order to get some of the free "upgrades" (mostly
related to CPU/EI cabling), I repainted the screw.  So long as we
provided him with schematics of the mods, the local RS "tech" was willing
to look at the paint on the screw and declare the machine to have "never
been tampered with", in spite of after market numeric pad, add-in board
for reverse video, lower case, a few additional keys, etc.  "Since the
screw was painted, any mods must have been done "boat in a bottle" style,
which is not prohibited by twe warranty"


> Why not
> solder the wires to a 5 pin DIN plug and stick it in the right hole?

I wanted to see what I was connecting to, didn't have the manual yet,
I didn't have any 5-pin DINs, the local electronics surplus "Electronics
Etc" was out of them!, and by that time, I was committed, and I knew that
I wanted UHF or RCA for the connector.

I did poke wires into the cassette 5 pin DIN


> > the background on Al Bundy's kitchen counter)  So, I cut a large
> > rectangular hole in the front of the monitor case and mounted a full
> > height 5.25" (Tandon TM100-1) drive and power supply to the right of the
> > CRT.  I added some mu-metal (sp?)  around it.
> Hmmm.. I am not sure I'd want a disk drive that close to the monitor
> electornics...

probably not one of my best ideas, but it did seem to work reliably!


> Whad did you do with the CoCo? tap of the composite signal inside?

yes


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From tshoppa at wmata.com  Thu Dec 15 17:37:46 2011
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:37:46 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
Message-ID: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C6116F6@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>

Tony writes:
>> On 12/14/2011 08:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> > On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
>> > but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
>> > where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
>> > running class A).
>>
>>    Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb
>> outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)

> I thoguht in the end he amanged ot get the FET cirucit to be better than
> the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).

Good reference: AN-43: http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an43f.pdf

I'm sure Jim Williams thought it was worth it and I really enjoyed reading about it so it was worth it to me for sure :-)

A highlight was Note 5: "What else should be expected when trying to replace a single light bulb with a bunch of electronic components? I can hear Figure 39?s #327  lamp laughing."

I had previously met Sir Denys Wilkinson and he had mentioned something to me about his pioneering days in nuclear instrumentation (including pinball machine multichannel analyzers). When he had told me that he had invented the D/A converter I didn't really believe him but kinda nodded along. Then I read it in Jim Williams' application note - with an actual reference - I felt a little sheepish in retrospect!

Tim.


From IanK at vulcan.com  Thu Dec 15 18:03:23 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:03:23 +0000
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <1323957772.61331.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CB0FCA20.9F93%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/15/11 6:02 AM, "Sam Onella" <barythrin at yahoo.com> wrote:

>One reason to use/require sudo of root commands that I've seen was for
>auditing the use of root access/commands.  It wasn't for security
>purposes other than yes to give approved people access to priviledged
>commands using their password and not reveal the root password, however
>it nicely logs to your logging server that user ran x command.  It was a
>pain yes I wouldn't argue that and the change of habit from admins
>sudoing to su takes a bit to get out of autopilot mode but it worked out
>in the end.
>
>The other comment was no of course it isn't a security measure or
>preventing a non-admin from creating an account, however every
>employer/employee should be getting a nice little motd or security
>message indicating proper authorized use of the system and lack of
>expectation to privacy.  Creating an administrative account/backdoor
>would be good grounds to be fired.  It's just a security control.
>

Yeah, locks keep honest people honest.  The purpose of security measures
is to raise the price too high to make it worth stealing.  (Example: "If
you value your life as much as I value this motorcycle, don't [action
verb] with it!")  -- Ian 




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 18:12:20 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:12:20 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJQt-000J4BC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RbJQt-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112160012.TAA23067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> IIRC mo purely linear system can produce stable oscillations [...]

>> On the one hand, that feels right.

>> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that [...] uses a FET
>> as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out where it's got
>> anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is running class
>> A).

> I was using 'linear' in its mathemtical sense.

So was I.

> It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not
> linear.

Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in the
FET-based version.  I'm probably just missing something.  (Does a FET,
modeled as a voltage-controlled resistor, count as nonlinear, assuming
it stays in the region where the model is reasonably accurate and
linear?  Seems linear to me, but perhaps I'm missing something there
too.)

>>> I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain
>>> research student.
>> Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.
> [...]

Ah!  Okay.  Thank you.

> The name of this student was William Hewlett.  The product was the
> model 200A audio oscillator.

Hm, I have some very old (steel case with, I think, brown speckle
finish, all-valve construction, land-anchor weight) HP electronics.
I should check model numbers; I might even have a 200A.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 15 18:22:53 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 16:22:53 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJtD-000J4TC@p850ug1>
References: <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec
 15, 11 10:07:01 am, <m1RbJtD-000J4TC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com>

On 15 Dec 2011 at 22:34, Tony Duell wrote:

> So my question is : If you use ''NTSC-like' colour encoding (phase
> angle is the hue, amplitude is the saturation -- think of it as being
> PAL without the altehrnate line flip) on a 625 line 50Hz vertical
> svideo signal, what do you call it? Coloquially it's often called
> 'NTSC 50Hz, or even NTSC-I (or NTSC-B/G) but those names are clearly
> wrogn if you're being pedantic about it. What is the right neam?

"Obsolete".

Well, perhaps "obsolescent".  A quick check of the old UHF TV 
broadcast band on my 5" portable Emerson TV/AM/FM box turns up a 
Bible-thumper station that still has NTSC color broadcast on a 
repeater on one of the nosebleed channels.  I can also get an NBC 
repeater, but with a very faint signal.

I wonder how many NTSC repeaters are still in operation east of the 
Mississippi...

--Chuck


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 18:52:24 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:52:24 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJUk-000J4MC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RbJUk-000J4MC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEA9648.8050603@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 5:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>> Amazingly the service manual for our LCD TV doesn't contain a schematic
>>> of the PSU board (it's unclear why not, one page says for 'safety reasosn
>>> the pSU must not be field-repaired',
>>
>> That is because they want you to buy a whole new monitor when the crappy
>> Chinese electrolytics swell up and die.
>
> Although they do expect me to repair the signal-prpocessing PCB...

Which has a much longer expected lifespan, something that is irrelevant, 
because by the time it fails, the little cylindrical time bombs have 
already gained the manufacturer another sale.

--T

>
> In any case I regard the information in service manuals ot be jsut that
> -- information. I don't follow it blindly. Of course I read the service
> manual, but sometimes I don't do what it suggests. As here. If the PSU
> failed, you cna be sure I'd have a go at fixing it (and lack of a
> scheamtic doens't always make repari impossible...)
>
> [In much the same way, while I reer to many modern service manauls as
> 'boardswapepr guides', I do read them if theyr'e available. I am not
> going to start swapping boards, but I might was sell get all the
> informatio nI can before I dive in with the 'scope.
>
>> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
>
> Right...
>
> -tony
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 18:58:33 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 19:58:33 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
Message-ID: <4EEA97B9.2050604@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 11:05 AM, TeoZ wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shoppa, Tim" <tshoppa at wmata.com>
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 10:12 AM
> Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
> converter possible?
>
>
>> On 12/14/2011 08:29 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> I've "field repaired" at least five units in this way, giving them a
>>> happy rebirth - The rest of the monitor lasts a lot longer than the
>>> stupid capacitors do. Building in obsolescence like this should be a
>>> crime that puts people behind bars.
>>
>> If they had successfully built in obsolescence, then all the parts
>> would fail at the same time.

That was the ideal of Henry Ford, I believe. But it is very hard to 
achieve, and evil, really. There was a time, not so long ago, when 
things were built to work well, endure, and be repaired.

Then China happened.

--T

>>
>> The US big 3 automakers to their credit did a pretty good job with
>> this for a long time. Yeah, cars in crashes still had good parts to
>> pick over in a junkyard, but by the end of a cars natural life there
>> really wasn't an awful lot left to pick over.
>>
>> Not that I'd wish a 1974 Dodge Monaco on just anyone :-)
>>
>> Tim.
>>
>
> The problem is engineering tools got better and better so the fudge
> factor needed to make sure the part lasted as long as it was designed
> for got lower and lower. Metal use dropped as plastics got stronger, so
> parts get brittle with age instead of lasting forever. Things like this
> are done to make parts cheaper to compete better (basically to squeeze
> more profit out of something), so we have items designed to fail after
> the warranty expires. The cheaper something is sold for the shorter the
> warranty needed so by design things become cheaper and disposable.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 19:21:26 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 20:21:26 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 9:16 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2011 1:47 AM, "Toby Thain"<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>>
>> On 13/12/11 12:13 AM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>>
>>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>>
>>>> On 12/12/11 3:53 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The representation that Unix uses is effective for these use cases.
> Can
>>>>>> you give an actual example of where Unix handles extensions "very
>>>>>> poorly"? (Your faux-DOS command doesn't seem to qualify, as it is
>>>>>> neither about Unix (rather, shell), nor a valid use of mv.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    Well, it depends upon your definition of "Unix".  There are certain
>>>>> commands I've come across that handles extentions poorly.  Like gunzip:
>>>>>
>>>>>    And GCC also has trouble with extentions:
>>>>>
>>>> Errr... again, these are *programs*, not Unix...
>>>
>>>
>>>    Again, what is *your* definition of Unix?  The Unix *kernel* only cares
>>
>>
>> Easy. You can make the program behave how you like regarding extensions,
> but it will still run on Unix.
>>
>> It's not necessary to change the operating system to fix this. But
> perhaps Liam misspoke in the heat of the moment, and meant "*shell* handles
> file extensions very poorly". I haven't seen a correction in this vein yet,
> so this is only a theory.
>>
> Well, /strictly/, yes, but since I have never seen or heard of a single
> UNIX or Linux shell that does what I consider to be the sane or right
> thing, I think it's fair to say that it's an attribute of the OS as a whole.
>

I said this was a shell problem, but it's not necessarily even that 
(assuming we are STILL talking about that rename example).

It's really an issue at the level of the rename *program* (not 'mv' 
which has different semantics - as the example underlines) and a good 
solution was hinted at by you:

   $ ren @.log @.old

Where @ is a globbing operator that has the desired 'zip' semantics (not 
*'s semantics, as we have so laboriously hammered to death). Such a 
'ren' could be a 1-line Perl script...

But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:

   $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'

Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).

Insisting it's a "Unix" problem is like saying mammals have prickly 
feathers.

--T


From rickb at bensene.com  Thu Dec 15 19:51:21 2011
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 17:51:21 -0800
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
In-Reply-To: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E37@mail.bensene.com>




> Not affiliated with the seller... Looks interesting but in rough
shape.
> Anyone know more about this thing?
> 
> 260917141380
> 

It's missing major pieces...the special Friden Flexowriter (a regular
Flexowriter won't work...the Computypers had specially adapted
Flexowriters) that is used for I/O, and probably one or two auxiliary
paper tape readers.  That's what the cables are for on the "desktop"
part.  Without those, it's just a bunch of electronics.  Still cool,
though.  

It likely uses a small magnetic drum memory for numeric storage.  Not
sure what type of circuitry this machine would have used...probably
transistor based on the size, but it could be tube, or some kind of
hybrid.    Main use of these machines was invoicing and statement
generation.   My guess is that it's from the late 50's to early 60's.

Programming was through a combination of punched tape (or edge-punched
cards), a plugboard, and a format control rack in the Flexowriter that
set things like tab locations, numeric formatting, locations where user
input was needed on a form.  This wasn't a stored-program machine.

Friden made a bunch of different machines they called Computypers.  The
first machine from the mid-1950's was made by  Benson-Lehner.  Friden
acquired the rights to it when Benson-Lenher decided it wasn't  the kind
of equipment they wanted to sell.  The Benson-Lehner machine used a
Friden electromechanical calculator with modifications to allow the
calculation results to be electrically communicated to a typewriter, and
solenoids hooked to the keyboards (Friden calculators of the era had two
numeric keyboards - a special 10-key for entering multipliers, and a
full keyboard (columns of 1 through 9) for everything else) for entering
numeric data into the calculator, and other solenoids to activate the
math functions.

Over time, the electromechanical calculator was replaced with
electronics, with technology advances continually increasing the
capabilities and shrinking the size.  My Godparents had a Friden 5005
Computyper (the last of the breed) that they used for their business.
This machine used small-scale IC technology and magnetostrictive delay
lines to cram all of what the earlier Computypers did, plus more, into
an oversized, modernized Flexowriter-sized desktop machine.   Friden
engineers in Holland (most of the later Computyper development was done
in Nijmegen, Holland) had a heck of a time programming their application
for the machine (dairy tank calibration)...they had to use every trick
in the book to get it to fit. 

I hope someone rescues the eBay machine, in spite of the missing pieces.
There aren't many of these left anymore, and it'd be a shame to have it
end up scrap.

Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalcultormuseum.com



From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Dec 15 20:34:53 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:34:53 -0800
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>
> But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
>
>   $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'
>
> Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).

Wow, that's so elegant.  It only requires spawning two processes, piping 
to a general purpose programming language, and using regexps to make it 
work!

Wait, is elegant the word I want to use here?  Hmm.

- Josh

>
> Insisting it's a "Unix" problem is like saying mammals have prickly 
> feathers.
>
> --T
>


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 15 20:44:38 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:44:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112160244.VAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

[Please trim your quotes!]

> But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:

>    $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'

I think using perl hardly counts as "any [] Unix system".

Or is that what your "ahem" is there for?

Also, that's going to misbehave, one way or another, on names
containing newlines, and possibly (I'm not entirely clear what "chomp"
does) names containing other characters.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From chris at mainecoon.com  Thu Dec 15 20:50:29 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 18:50:29 -0800
Subject: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <1403E2AC-C1C4-44B2-B965-4F231729BDB8@mainecoon.com>


On 15 Dec 2011, at 6:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

[snip]

> 
> Wow, that's so elegant.  It only requires spawning two processes, piping to a general purpose programming language, and using regexps to make it work!

At least you *can*.  It's also completely consistent with the usage model for Unix dating back to the 70s.

> Wait, is elegant the word I want to use here?  Hmm.

It's probably a matter of taste and what you're used to.  From a command line standpoint I prefer the Unix usage model over that of, say, Windows, and DCL makes me think that VMS stands for "Vomit Making System" -- yet I know people who swear using DCL is a near orgasmic experience.

Don't we need an emacs vs. vi[m] digression to make this thread complete?

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 21:08:41 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:08:41 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EEAB639.2060103@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 9:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>
> On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>
>>
>> But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
>>
>> $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'
>>
>> Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).
>
> Wow, that's so elegant. It only requires spawning two processes, piping
> to a general purpose programming language, and using regexps to make it
> work!
>
> Wait, is elegant the word I want to use here? Hmm.
>

It was obviously not meant to be elegant but to get the job done.

--T


> - Josh
>
>>
>> Insisting it's a "Unix" problem is like saying mammals have prickly
>> feathers.
>>
>> --T
>>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 21:09:24 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:09:24 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <201112160244.VAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112160244.VAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEAB664.4090502@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 9:44 PM, Mouse wrote:
> [Please trim your quotes!]
>
>> But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
>
>>     $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/&&  rename($_, "$1.old");'
>
> I think using perl hardly counts as "any [] Unix system".
>
> Or is that what your "ahem" is there for?
>
> Also, that's going to misbehave, one way or another, on names
> containing newlines, and possibly (I'm not entirely clear what "chomp"
> does) names containing other characters.

I have a lot of files containing newlines, so yes, this is a serious 
problem. What does DOS do with files containing newlines...

--T

>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 21:21:23 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:21:23 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EEAB933.3010500@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 9:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>
> On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>
>>
>> But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
>>
>> $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'
>>
>> Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).
>
> Wow, that's so elegant. It only requires spawning two processes, piping
> to a general purpose programming language, and using regexps to make it
> work!

What is a glob but a regexp? And what is shell but a general purpose 
programming language? And why have processes if you're not going to use 
them?

For elegance, maybe you should write it all in C... Not to mention that 
the 'elegant' solution (a 'ren' tool) was already given.

>
> Wait, is elegant the word I want to use here? Hmm.

Since the thread started with the premise "DOS can do this but Unix 
can't!!", elegance was going to be an unlikely theme.

And I'm pretty sure 'ad hoc' doesn't mean 'oh my god look at the 
crystalline perfection of this'.

--T

>
> - Josh
>
>>
>> Insisting it's a "Unix" problem is like saying mammals have prickly
>> feathers.
>>
>> --T
>>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 21:33:22 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 22:33:22 -0500
Subject: Filenames containing newlines - Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames
 - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAB664.4090502@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112160244.VAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEAB664.4090502@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EEABC02.2000903@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 10:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 15/12/11 9:44 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> [Please trim your quotes!]
>>
>>> But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
>>
>>> $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/&& rename($_, "$1.old");'
>>
>> I think using perl hardly counts as "any [] Unix system".
>>
>> Or is that what your "ahem" is there for?
>>
>> Also, that's going to misbehave, one way or another, on names
>> containing newlines, and possibly (I'm not entirely clear what "chomp"
>> does) names containing other characters.
>
> I have a lot of files containing newlines, so yes, this is a serious
> problem. What does DOS do with files containing newlines...
>

I mean file /names/ containing newlines. Of which I see a lot!

You guys want titanium screws where duct tape does just fine; and in the 
heat of the moment I don't really want to have to write or pore over the 
C code that would not have that issue. Cost/benefit. But if I *did* have 
files with newlines, maybe Unix could handle that too. Who knows?

--T

> --T
>
>>
>> /~\ The ASCII Mouse
>> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
>> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>>
>
>



From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Dec 15 22:28:54 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 20:28:54 -0800
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAB933.3010500@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEAB933.3010500@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EEAC906.9010409@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/15/2011 7:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 15/12/11 9:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>> Wow, that's so elegant. It only requires spawning two processes, piping
>> to a general purpose programming language, and using regexps to make it
>> work!
>
> What is a glob but a regexp? And what is shell but a general purpose 
> programming language? And why have processes if you're not going to 
> use them?

Well, why limit yourself to just two processes, then? :)


>
> For elegance, maybe you should write it all in C... Not to mention 
> that the 'elegant' solution (a 'ren' tool) was already given.

The "ren" tool suggested earlier in a different thread requires using a 
different wildcard syntax (using '@' instead of '*') due to a 
fundamental design choice in Unix wherein the shell must expand 
wildcards on behalf of the programs it execs.  I think consistency is 
pretty important so I still don't see this as being elegant.  
("Remember, use "*" for globbing, except for this one utility over 
here...")


>
>>
>> Wait, is elegant the word I want to use here? Hmm.
>
> Since the thread started with the premise "DOS can do this but Unix 
> can't!!", elegance was going to be an unlikely theme.

Yeah, once you start involving Unix, elegance goes right out the window :).

>
> And I'm pretty sure 'ad hoc' doesn't mean 'oh my god look at the 
> crystalline perfection of this'.

Yes, you're right.  It's been a long day and my desire to say something 
snarky overcame my ability to hold it in.  Apologies :).

- Josh



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 15 22:46:26 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 23:46:26 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAC906.9010409@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEAB933.3010500@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAC906.9010409@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EEACD22.8070909@telegraphics.com.au>

On 15/12/11 11:28 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
> ...
> Yes, you're right. It's been a long day and my desire to say something
> snarky overcame my ability to hold it in. Apologies :).
>

No worries. You still have more restraint in reserve than I do. :)

--Toby

> - Josh
>
>



From spc at conman.org  Thu Dec 15 23:00:16 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:00:16 -0500
Subject: Filenames containing newlines - Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEABC02.2000903@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112160244.VAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEAB664.4090502@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEABC02.2000903@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111216050016.GA5458@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Toby Thain once stated:
> On 15/12/11 10:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> >On 15/12/11 9:44 PM, Mouse wrote:
> >>[Please trim your quotes!]
> >>
> >>>But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
> >>
> >>>$ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/&& rename($_, "$1.old");'
> >>
> >>I think using perl hardly counts as "any [] Unix system".
> >>
> >>Or is that what your "ahem" is there for?
> >>
> >>Also, that's going to misbehave, one way or another, on names
> >>containing newlines, and possibly (I'm not entirely clear what "chomp"
> >>does) names containing other characters.
> >
> >I have a lot of files containing newlines, so yes, this is a serious
> >problem. What does DOS do with files containing newlines...
> >
> 
> I mean file /names/ containing newlines. Of which I see a lot!
> 
> You guys want titanium screws where duct tape does just fine; and in the 
> heat of the moment I don't really want to have to write or pore over the 
> C code that would not have that issue. Cost/benefit. But if I *did* have 
> files with newlines, maybe Unix could handle that too. Who knows?

  Do you mean a Unix program, or at the command line?  A Unix program, yes
(two examples below).  The command line?  Um ... probably not with embedded
newlines in the filenames.

  The C code isn't *that* bad, but really, any language on Unix that allows
you to interate over the entries in a directory will work and be a bit
easier than in C.  In perl:

	opendir(DIR,".");
	while($file = readdir(DIR))
	{
	  # handle file
	  print($file,"\n");
	}

  In Lua (not stock, granted, but with the right modules):

	require "posix"

	for file in posix.files(".") do
	  -- handle file
	  print(file) -- print adds "\n"
	end

  -spc



From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Thu Dec 15 23:12:26 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 00:12:26 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>

Where are you going to put all those IBM 3270 terminals?

--
Will


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Dec 15 23:19:05 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 15 Dec 2011 21:19:05 -0800
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E37@mail.bensene.com>
References: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E37@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <4EEAD4C9.6070108@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/15/2011 5:51 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
>
>
>> Not affiliated with the seller... Looks interesting but in rough
> shape.
>> Anyone know more about this thing?
>>
>> 260917141380
>>
> It's missing major pieces...the special Friden Flexowriter (a regular
> Flexowriter won't work...the Computypers had specially adapted
> Flexowriters) that is used for I/O, and probably one or two auxiliary
> paper tape readers.  That's what the cables are for on the "desktop"
> part.  Without those, it's just a bunch of electronics.  Still cool,
> though.

Yeah, a shame that that's all that's left, but it's better than 
nothing.  Can't be too many of these left anywhere.  I'd love to see 
what's inside the cabinet.

>
> It likely uses a small magnetic drum memory for numeric storage.  Not
> sure what type of circuitry this machine would have used...probably
> transistor based on the size, but it could be tube, or some kind of
> hybrid.    Main use of these machines was invoicing and statement
> generation.   My guess is that it's from the late 50's to early 60's.
>
> Programming was through a combination of punched tape (or edge-punched
> cards), a plugboard, and a format control rack in the Flexowriter that
> set things like tab locations, numeric formatting, locations where user
> input was needed on a form.  This wasn't a stored-program machine.
>
> Friden made a bunch of different machines they called Computypers.  The
> first machine from the mid-1950's was made by  Benson-Lehner.  Friden
> acquired the rights to it when Benson-Lenher decided it wasn't  the kind
> of equipment they wanted to sell.  The Benson-Lehner machine used a
> Friden electromechanical calculator with modifications to allow the
> calculation results to be electrically communicated to a typewriter, and
> solenoids hooked to the keyboards (Friden calculators of the era had two
> numeric keyboards - a special 10-key for entering multipliers, and a
> full keyboard (columns of 1 through 9) for everything else) for entering
> numeric data into the calculator, and other solenoids to activate the
> math functions.
>
> Over time, the electromechanical calculator was replaced with
> electronics, with technology advances continually increasing the
> capabilities and shrinking the size.  My Godparents had a Friden 5005
> Computyper (the last of the breed) that they used for their business.
> This machine used small-scale IC technology and magnetostrictive delay
> lines to cram all of what the earlier Computypers did, plus more, into
> an oversized, modernized Flexowriter-sized desktop machine.   Friden
> engineers in Holland (most of the later Computyper development was done
> in Nijmegen, Holland) had a heck of a time programming their application
> for the machine (dairy tank calibration)...they had to use every trick
> in the book to get it to fit.

Thanks for the information!  Sounds like these were interesting devices.

>
> I hope someone rescues the eBay machine, in spite of the missing pieces.
> There aren't many of these left anymore, and it'd be a shame to have it
> end up scrap.

Well, the auction's ended, so it looks like someone must have picked it 
up.  Hope it went to a good home...

- Josh

>
> Rick Bensene
> The Old Calculator Museum
> http://oldcalcultormuseum.com
>
>


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Dec 16 02:57:15 2011
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:57:15 +0100
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>

Hi

It is a very impressive collection you have there. I spot a DG dasher (I 
think) and an Informer (I have one of those: 
http://www.pdp8.se/slask/Informer_front.jpg).

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 03:50:10PM -0700, Richard wrote:
> Moved into shelving:
> - Nuclear Data ND600 and ND6600 terminals

Hmm, I think I have, or used to have, a board for an ND600 terminal.

> Moved into rack:
> - DLT tape drives
> - HP X-Y display
> - TEC rackmount terminals

I'm curious about the small thing at the bottom of the shelf next to 
this rack. A small box with a keyboard on top, what is that?

And finaly, what is that we se the backside of in picture dsc_0604.jpg, 
is it a lisp machine?

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,
Pontus.


From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 16 03:16:51 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 01:16:51 -0800
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>

Josh Dersch wrote:
 > Wow, that's so elegant.  It only requires spawning two
 > processes, piping to a general purpose programming
 > language, and using regexps to make it work!

Bear in mind that a big part of the Unix philosophy is that rather than 
providing tools that directly do anything you might need, Unix (and 
associated software) are intended to give you simple tools that you can 
combine, such that you can easily get more expressive power than can be 
provided by a single complex tool.  That includes considering the shell 
as one of the tools.  It isn't intended that the shell alone do 
everything you might want; it is fully expected that you will have tasks 
that require piping commands together.

Whether that philosophy is appropriate for the average user, and whether 
Unix and related software actually adhere to that philosophy any more 
are debatable points.  Whether the shell should have any easy way to 
rename all the files *.foo to *.bar is an interesting question.  The 
fact that it is easy to do on DEC-like command parsers doesn't imply 
that it's such a common operation that the shell should offer it.  I 
would actually argue the opposite; since Unix shells have been around 
for many years without anyone being convinced that that capability is 
necessary, it is clear that it is not a common operation for most 
people, and that it's OK to have to combine a few tools to do it.

However, I'll have to agree with you that the given solution is 
inelegant.  I would say that anything that involves the use of Perl is 
by definition inelegant.  That's spoken by someone who has once written 
a non-trivial piece of software in Perl, and lived to regret it.

Personally I use a shell for loop with mv and basename, like:

         for f in *.foo; do mv $f `basename $f .foo`.bar; done

That won't work when you want to change something other than the suffix 
of a file, so knowledge of other Unix tools is helpful.  For more 
complex mass renamings, which I do even less frequently, I do tend to 
use sed for filename manipulation.  It's more powerful, but not as easy 
to use.  On the other hand, it's less powerful than Perl.  I don't view 
that as a disadvantage.  I don't want a ten pound sledge when I need to 
drive a finishing nail.

Eric



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Dec 16 04:18:38 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:18:38 +0100 (CET)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
>> BTW: NTSC is a colour encoding system and has nothing to do with TV
>> channel frequencies.
>
> I thought 'NTSC' was 'National Television Standerds Committee'. If so, I
> would be suprised if the only thing they ever standardised was a colour
> encoding system.

Probably I'm wrong. I was under the impression that the only purpose of 
the NTSC was to define a new colour standard (Never The Same Colour). 
Whatever, I don't know of anything they did afterwards.

Christian


From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 05:36:26 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:36:26 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <5997CD33F99D4EB38591BD2E316FD218@Pc12>
References: <CAC-a2O+JU--1y5u1E3dB72uD3Ly8KOAyZV7u0g_CJ9iReu6zzA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111209172000.GE88451@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <ABC623327EA14E178C836F4551610B48@Pc12>
 <20111211191044.GB99616@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FBCF5766B83446648FEBD2D9D310C5D0@Pc12>
 <20111215070224.GA21181@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <5997CD33F99D4EB38591BD2E316FD218@Pc12>
Message-ID: <20111216113626.GB28467@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

nierveze wrote:

> hello,I found roms here:
> http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=4118
> in the zip archive there several images,
> here is the translation of the documentation:
> 000.DAT - monitor MS1201.0, starting address 0160000
> 013.DAT - ROM BASIC for MS1201.0, starting address 0140000,
> inputoutput on PR/PP/PC11 (punched tape!)
> 055.DAT - monitor MS1201.2, starting address 0140000
> 091.DAT - ROM [KMD] is original, addr=0, OZU to 1809RU1, controller of 
> 1801VP1-097
> 092.DAT - PZU [KMD], addr=0, RAM to 537RU11, controller of 1801VP1-128
> 093.DAT - PZU [KMD], addr=0, RAM to 1809[RU]1, controller of 1801VP1-128
> 134.DAT - monitor MS1201.3, addr=0
> 134e.DAT - monitor MS1201.3, addr=0, for the work with the firm terminals
> (without the Russian in the communications, charger RR instead of DX)
> 181.DAT - ROM [KTSGD], addr=0100000, original version, the instruction 
> system of vt102
> 182.DAT - ROM [KTSGD], addr=0100000, many bugfix[ov], the instruction 
> system of
> vt220, the graphic programs, written under 181, no longer go = (
> 255.DAT - ROM [KMD], addr=0, OZU to 537RU8/RU10 is fixed with
> addresses 020000..027777, controller of 1801VP1-128


Ok, downloaded it, thanks.

> For the components I bought them from platan
> http://www.platan.ru/
> ,or chip dip
> http://www.chipdip.ru/
> as they never anwered to my emails,I asked a friend (the ebay seller
> ru seller
> http://stores.ebay.com/Soviet-Souvenirs?_trksid=p4340.l2563)
> I have bought several computers and lots of circuits by his help,
> ask him.He bought them from me in russian,and sent them to me ,I paid by 
> paypal.
> I hope this helps
> alain

Ok, I'm currently have 2 people there that I can ask too.
One of them is sovtube at ebay, the other one responded of a mail from me
to an adress in a russian forum.

I know of this Store you mentioned, it appears if you seach worldwide for
PDP11 at ebay :-)) He has the K1801 CPUs regularly in his shop.
He had an BK0010 (or 11?) one time but I tought that the price was a little
high...


Hope that I have the time this weekend to use the soldering iron again..

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 05:39:59 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:39:59 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C6116F6@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C6116F6@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <20111216113959.GC28467@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Shoppa, Tim wrote:

> Tony writes:
> >> On 12/14/2011 08:14 PM, Mouse wrote:
> >> > On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
> >> > but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
> >> > where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
> >> > running class A).
> >>
> >>    Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb
> >> outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)
> 
> > I thoguht in the end he amanged ot get the FET cirucit to be better than
> > the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).
> 
> Good reference: AN-43: http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an43f.pdf
> 
> I'm sure Jim Williams thought it was worth it and I really enjoyed reading about it so it was worth it to me for sure :-)
> 
> A highlight was Note 5: "What else should be expected when trying to replace a single light bulb with a bunch of electronic components? I can hear Figure 39?s #327  lamp laughing."
> 
> I had previously met Sir Denys Wilkinson and he had mentioned something to me about his pioneering days in nuclear instrumentation (including pinball machine multichannel analyzers). When he had told me that he had invented the D/A converter I didn't really believe him but kinda nodded along. Then I read it in Jim Williams' application note - with an actual reference - I felt a little sheepish in retrospect!
> 
> Tim.

Sorry that I'm asking, but what the heck has this todo with my question
above?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 05:41:05 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:41:05 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112160012.TAA23067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RbJQt-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112160012.TAA23067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111216114105.GD28467@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Mouse wrote:

> >>> IIRC mo purely linear system can produce stable oscillations [...]
> 
> >> On the one hand, that feels right.
> 
> >> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that [...] uses a FET
> >> as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out where it's got
> >> anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is running class
> >> A).
> 
> > I was using 'linear' in its mathemtical sense.
> 
> So was I.
> 
> > It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not
> > linear.
> 
> Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in the
> FET-based version.  I'm probably just missing something.  (Does a FET,
> modeled as a voltage-controlled resistor, count as nonlinear, assuming
> it stays in the region where the model is reasonably accurate and
> linear?  Seems linear to me, but perhaps I'm missing something there
> too.)
> 
> >>> I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain
> >>> research student.
> >> Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.
> > [...]
> 
> Ah!  Okay.  Thank you.
> 
> > The name of this student was William Hewlett.  The product was the
> > model 200A audio oscillator.
> 
> Hm, I have some very old (steel case with, I think, brown speckle
> finish, all-valve construction, land-anchor weight) HP electronics.
> I should check model numbers; I might even have a 200A.
> 
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


Hey Guys, maybe it's possible that you get an other headline for your
discussion? 

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From jdr_use at bluewin.ch  Fri Dec 16 07:34:42 2011
From: jdr_use at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:34:42 +0100
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <4EEB48F2.20700@bluewin.ch>

On 12/16/2011 09:57 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
>
> - TEC rackmount terminals
> I'm curious about the small thing at the bottom of the shelf next to
> this rack. A small box with a keyboard on top, what is that?
>
> And finaly, what is that we se the backside of in picture dsc_0604.jpg,
> is it a lisp machine?
>

A Diser Lilith Modula-2 machine.
Or is it an Eve ?
.... in which  case they share the same cabinet.


Seriously rare beast in any case,  and of which I would love to  see PCB pictures !


             Jos




From gyorpb at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 07:42:39 2011
From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:42:39 +0100
Subject: Looking for powerpc and decent graphics card for Apple Quadra 950
In-Reply-To: <1323964830.35037.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1323964830.35037.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EEB4ACF.90200@gmail.com>

On 2011-12-15 17:00, silvercreekvalley wrote:

> I'd also like to put in a PowerPC upgrade if I can find one. I used to have
> one of these years ago, and it used to work pretty well. The Quadra has
> a PDS type slot.

That slot will take a SCSI accellerator card, which will essentially 
transforn your 950 into a WGS95.

Please don't disgrace this beautiful 68K machine with PPC upgrades. It 
is pretty much begging for an A/UX install.

.tsooJ


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 07:47:09 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:47:09 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EEB4BDD.7060901@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 4:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Josh Dersch wrote:
>  > Wow, that's so elegant. It only requires spawning two
>  > processes, piping to a general purpose programming
>  > language, and using regexps to make it work!
>
> Bear in mind that a big part of the Unix philosophy is that rather than
> providing tools that directly do anything you might need, Unix (and
> associated software) are intended to give you simple tools that you can
> combine, ...
 > I'll have to agree with you that the given solution is
> inelegant. I would say that anything that involves the use of Perl is by
> definition inelegant. That's spoken by someone who has once written a
> non-trivial piece of software in Perl, and lived to regret it.
>
> Personally I use a shell for loop with mv and basename, like:
>
> for f in *.foo; do mv $f `basename $f .foo`.bar; done

That's better. If I had to do this kind of operation more than once 
every four years I'd have a better chance of arriving at it :)

--Toby

>
> That won't work when you want to change something other than the suffix
> of a file, ...
>
> Eric
>
>



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 08:01:56 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:01:56 +0000
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <m1RaZBP-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RaZBP-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFukbbOgVcBgdcSJr+ujazBb3kMrWKjoxBRG+6Whq=FqQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 13, 2011 11:42 PM, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >
> > On 12 December 2011 16:58, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > In article
<CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=3DJPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw at mail.=
> > gmail.com>,
> > > =A0 =A0Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> writes:
> > >
> > >> But I am frankly sick of learning new systems now.
> > >
> > > Really?
> > >
> > > Because for me, learning about new systems is about the only thing
> > > that keeps my job interesting and keeps this hobby interesting.
> >
> > I quite enjoy dabbling with new Linux GUIs and so on, but TBH, no. I
> > stand by what I said.
> [List of machines deleted]
>
> > And many more I can't call to mind.
> >
> > I'm tired of it.
>
> I find this a somewhat curious attitude for a regualr on this list (Note,
> to avoid the flamage, I am saying that _I_ find it curious, not that
> you're in any way wrong). One of the things about classic computers is
> that they're not all the same, they run differnet OSes with vatious
> command lines and GUIs. So learning obscurew OSes is certain;y one reason
> to get invovled with classic computers.
>
> > I want my computers to just /work/. I expected all the complexity and
>
> That's whay I run classic machiens (Somewhat tongue-in-cheek, but only
> somewhat).
>
> [..]
>
> > want and that just do it, with no more maintenance than a toaster.
>
> Now leetys see... That means you want to take the case off and lcean out
> the crumbs every couple of months and replace an element and adjust the
> control mechanism about once a year... Or at least that's my experience
> of toasters.

Working on & playing with are different things.

As for toasters: occasionally I turn it upside down over the compost bin &
tap it a few times to get the crumbs out. Anything else stops working, I
recycle it & get a new one.

That's more maintenance than I'd be willing to do to a TV set or landline
phone  too...


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 08:07:40 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:07:40 +0000
Subject: gzip's behavior,
 was Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCER5VT-DowmVtAXUS-yu2JENY+5MjiqMNuSBZWnqonuPQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 14, 2011 1:37 AM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/13/2011 07:51 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> What I expect, want and demand:
>>
>> It unpacks to the name(s) of the file(s) [and folders] in the archive
>> and leaves the original archive the fsck alone.
>>
>> In my early Linux days, I was /very/ annoyed several times when Gunzip
>> cheerfully *removed the archive I told it to unpack*. This is
>> *absolutely* unacceptable to my mind.
>
>
>  Why?  Because it differs from another tool that you may have been
accustomed to?  If that's why, be aware that gzip's user interface is
patterned after a tool that far predates pkzip/pkarc/arc/etc, and that
behavior has been the accepted one that has been considered logical and
good since the 1970s.
>
>  Also be advised that you didn't tell it to unpack an archive (something
gzip doesn't do), you told it to decompress a compressed file.  Tar (say)
doesn't remove a tar file after extracting its contents, because...well,
cheerfully removing the archive you told it to unpack would be absolutely
unacceptable.
>
>  Decompressing a compressed file is a whole different animal; you can get
things right back where they were (if you need to) with a single command.
 The only possible difference is the original user's compression setting,
and I respectfully submit that the loss of that information isn't
frequently a big deal.
>
>  File compression is something that you "do" to a single file.  Should
"undoing" it result in two copies of the file, one with it "done" and the
other with it "undone"?  THAT seems ridiculous to me.

To each their own. Decompression if a file is, to me, a process of reading
the compressed file & wiring an uncompressed one. That the UNIX tradition
appears to be "oh yeah, do that & feel free to tamper with the source as
well" does not wash.

I am no respecter or admirer of tradition. Tradition is often wrong.

I am of course prepared to be educated & told why this is wrong, but I will
only be persuaded if the reasons are really remarkably good ives.


From alhartman at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 16 08:33:20 2011
From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 06:33:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.589.1324005693.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.589.1324005693.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1324046000.83477.YahooMailNeo@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

When I bought my TRS-80 Model I Expansion Interface, I worked for Radio Shack and had put the unit on layaway.

I bought the RAM mail-order because it was MUCH cheaper than what Radio Shack charged. The day before I was going to pay it off and take it home for good, I brought the unit home, cracked the case, installed the RAM, tested it, and then brought it back to the store.

I paid it off the following day, and brought it home.

I'm the only person I know who voided their warranty before it went into effect.

>>  In both cases, I WAITED UNTIL I GOT HOME before I opened the computer
>>  case.?  (I'm not a hardware person)
>> 
> 
> Err, yes... I think I've only ever once dismantled a computer on the way 
> home, and that was a DECmate II (whcih cna be taken apart without tools...)


Al



From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Dec 16 10:21:57 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:21:57 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <FE7D2ABD-5B4D-44FE-9907-79616DEF06EF@mainecoon.com>


On 16 Dec 2011, at 2:18 AM, Christian Corti wrote:

> 
> Probably I'm wrong. I was under the impression that the only purpose of the NTSC was to define a new colour standard (Never The Same Colour). Whatever, I don't know of anything they did afterwards.
> 

No.  The NTSC was originally created under the RMA's sponsorship and held it's first meeting on 31 July 1940 for the purpose of sorting out the competing broadcast standards that had resulted in the FCC rescinding its previous authorization for limited commercialization.  In the end the NTSC  proposed the 1938 RMA standard with two changes: audio was to be FM and the line count was to be increased from 441 to 525 lines; hearings on that were held on 20 March 1941 with adoption in April and an effective date of 1 July 1941 (it's interesting to note that 525 was a compromise between RCA's 441 lines and the Philco-DuMont faction that wanted either 605 or 800).

The NTSC committee was reassembled in 1950 in order to address color television; in 1953 it approved what later became known as RS-170a. 

So, in the end the NTSC was responsible for two entirely different but related systems:  A television signal standard and a color encoding standard.  RS-170a was referred to as "compatible" because in theory it didn't modify the definition of the television system but it actually did with the field refresh frequency being changed from 60Hz to 59.94Hz in order to avoid stationary dot patterns that could result from the difference frequency between the existing sound and new color carriers.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 16 10:22:02 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:22:02 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <4EEB702A.2060408@brouhaha.com>

Christian Corti wrote:
 > Probably I'm wrong. I was under the impression that the
 > only purpose of the NTSC was to define a new colour standard
 > (Never The Same Colour).

That was the second NTSC, in the early 1950s.  The first one, in the 
1940s, did the monochrome standard, and probably was involved in every 
aspect of defining the way television broadcasting worked, including 
both baseband and modulation.

 > Whatever, I don't know of anything they did afterwards.

I don't think they did anything afterwards, but I could be wrong.

Apparently the two NTSCs published many volumes of reports, but I 
haven't been able to track down copies of any of them.  There is a book 
published recently that reprints some of the highlights.

Eric



From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Dec 16 10:34:45 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:34:45 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EE9C6C5.16351.299478@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec
 15, 11 10:07:01 am,
 <m1RbJtD-000J4TC@p850ug1> <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <05F6332E-C22D-468C-9E79-29B75B1719A4@mainecoon.com>


On 15 Dec 2011, at 4:22 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> Well, perhaps "obsolescent".  A quick check of the old UHF TV 
> broadcast band on my 5" portable Emerson TV/AM/FM box turns up a 
> Bible-thumper station that still has NTSC color broadcast on a 
> repeater on one of the nosebleed channels.  I can also get an NBC 
> repeater, but with a very faint signal.

Technically it's not obsolete; translators, low power stations and class A stations are still authorized to broadcast analog; I don't believe the FCC has specified a cut-off date for such stations.

> I wonder how many NTSC repeaters are still in operation east of the 
> Mississippi...

A quick look at the FCC says that there's 439 class A UHF, 76 class A VHF, 3043 UHF translators, 1411 VHF translators, 1656 UHF low power and 516 VHF low power stations currently licensed for broadcast service.  Some of those may be digital and some may not currently be on the air.  If I try to refine it much more I'll end up spending half the day lost in the ULS :P

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 10:43:10 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:43:10 +0100
Subject: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Cameron Kaiser wrote:

> > Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File 
> > association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many 
> > times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator 
> > codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially 
> > absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
> 
> I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple for
> removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
> concern).
> 
> The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate this
> consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
> set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain files to
> automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a time
> OS X gave you the choice.
> 
> -- 
> ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
> -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell ---------------------------

OS X is not Unix in this case and Unix never ever decided what to do with a
file by its extension but t does by its magic number (look for /etc/magic).

BTW:
touch what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
$ ls -l what*
-rw-r--r--  1 holm  holm  0 16 Dez 17:40 what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
$ rm what*
$

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 16 10:45:15 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 08:45:15 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <FE7D2ABD-5B4D-44FE-9907-79616DEF06EF@mainecoon.com>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
 <FE7D2ABD-5B4D-44FE-9907-79616DEF06EF@mainecoon.com>
Message-ID: <4EEB759B.8030301@brouhaha.com>

Christian Kennedy wrote:
 > RS-170a was referred to as "compatible" because in theory it
 > didn't modify the definition of the television system but it actually
 > did with the field refresh frequency being changed from 60Hz to
 > 59.94Hz in order to avoid stationary dot patterns that could result
 > from the difference frequency between the existing sound and new
 > color carriers.

It would have been better (IMHO) to shift the sound subcarrier frequency 
by 0.1%, and keep the scan rate the same.  None of the existing 
receiving equipment (televisions) of the day had a precise enough sound 
demodulator that this would have made any difference whatsoever.  I told 
that the FCC wouldn't let them shift the sound carrier, but I have no 
idea why.  The result is the 0.1% shift in the scan rate, which resulted 
in the need for really awkward and inconvenient stuff like drop-frame 
time code.

Nevertheless, I think that RCA and the second NTSC did some of the most 
amazing and underappreciated engineering of the twentieth century.

Eric



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 10:50:05 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:50:05 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA374B.4000506@neurotica.com>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
 <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEA374B.4000506@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111216165005.GE28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/15/2011 08:21 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >>>  http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg
> >>
> >>Almost laughed out loud at that one.  Seems like it would cost more to 
> >>make the fake if it weren't done by the millions.
> >
> >Don't think that this one is real. It is on the web for years now and still
> >reappearing from time to time.
> 
>   While I can't speak to the provenance of this particular one, Chinese 
> component clones are a very real, very large problem in the electronics 
> industry, making it into the industry news media each and every week. 
> Given the state of the industry at this point, there's no reason at all 
> to suspect it to be a hoax.
> 
>              -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire
> New Kensington, PA

May be Dave, I had Problems with some Transistors in the past,
but they are made from automatic fabrics.
That thing on the picture can't be made this way, and producing this as a
mass product would be more expansive than making the entire electrolytic
capacitor itself. This thing for sure is a hoax.
I have no problem when you say, that there may be Rubicon lookalikes on
the market that doesn't hold the specs, but not such a thing.
Remeber: Chineses are making cheap things, but they aren't idiots for sure.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 10:54:52 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:54:52 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
Message-ID: <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

ben wrote:

> On 12/15/2011 9:05 AM, TeoZ wrote:
> 
> >The problem is engineering tools got better and better so the fudge
> >factor needed to make sure the part lasted as long as it was designed
> >for got lower and lower. Metal use dropped as plastics got stronger, so
> >parts get brittle with age instead of lasting forever. Things like this
> >are done to make parts cheaper to compete better (basically to squeeze
> >more profit out of something), so we have items designed to fail after
> >the warranty expires. The cheaper something is sold for the shorter the
> >warranty needed so by design things become cheaper and disposable.
> >
> 
> Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
> electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
> few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
> Ben.
> 

So we all now have no problems with that, or what?

We are all buying things day for day that while not lasting long gonig to
the waste disposal. We are wasting the resources of our children...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Fri Dec 16 11:08:48 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 18:08:48 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbJQt-000J4BC@p850ug1>
References: <201112150114.UAA04350@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <m1RbJQt-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111216170848.GH28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Tony Duell wrote:

> > > IIRC mo purely linear system can produce stable oscillations (any
> > > small change will either cause said oscilaltiosn to colalpse to zero
> > > or to grow ithout limit (or more practically untyil the signal hits
> > > the supply rails).
> > 
> > On the one hand, that feels right.
> > 
> > On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a bulb,
> > but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out
> > where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is
> > running class A).
> 
> I was using 'linear' in its mathemtical sense. A linear sysnmte is one 
> such that if input A gives oputput B, then input kA (k a constant 
> multiplier) gives output kB (same k). And if input C gives outptu D, then 
> input A+C must give output B+D.
> 
> It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not 
> linear. If we increase the input signal (multiply it by a suffiicenlty 
> large 'k'), the gain drops, so the output is less that you might expect. 
> 
>  
> > > I am sure we all know the stroy of Fred Terman and a certain research
> > > student.
> > 
> > Doesn't sound familiar to me, for what that may be worth.
> 
> Oh dear, oh dear...
> 
> We need to think back to the early 1930s. The problem was to produce an 
> adjustable audio oscilaltor. LC oscillators were impractical because 
> the L and C needed were large, and it's difficult to make a 1uF variable 
> capacitor (say). And the indcutoir is likle to be iron-cored, which is 
> likely to be non-linear.
> 
> The normal way it was done at the time was to have 2 RF oscillators 
> (such thigns couple be made adjustable fairly easily) -- one fied, the 
> other variable. The outputs were mixed and the differnvee frequency 
> extrcted. That was the audio output. One big problem was that if the 2 
> oscilators were at similar frequencies (to get a low freqeuncy otuput), 
> they had a habit ot interfering with each other. THis either led to them 
> jumping into lcok (so the output frequency became 0), or at least 
> producing a very distorted differnce signal. 
> 
> The solution was to make an RC oscilaltor. Large adjustable resisotrs are 
> perfectly possible, and can be used in such a cirucit with fixed capacitors.
> 
> Fred Terman was a professor of electrical engineerign at Stanford (IIRC). 
> He had a research student working on this, and said student made an RC 
> oscilaltor using a Wein bridge network as the frequency-dependant part, 
> the gai nwas stailbied by having a small filamanet bulb as one of the 
> gian-control resistors in the amplifier. It worked well, in fact it 
> backame a commercial product.
> 
> The name of this student was William Hewlett. The product was the model 
> 200A audio oscillator.
> 
> -tony

"Wein" is somthing that you can drink, it's called Wine in your language.
Did you mean an Wien Bridge?
Wehre in the 200A is The K1801BM2 russian PDP11 CPU?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 16 11:43:44 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? 
In-Reply-To: <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>

I have THE definitive solution for the original poster:

WRITE A NEW SHELL.  It would be the easiest way to get DOS-like filename
handling capabilities with Unix.

Let's call it "CP.M"  (sorry, but '/' creates a few complications)
It needs to have built-in commands of
TYPE
ERASE
REN
DIR
USER
and you will also need to write a few programs to go with it, such as
PIP.COM and DDT.COM
and optionally WS.COM and SC.COM


Once it is well established, then you can write ANOTHER one called
"COMMAND.COM"  It has a longer list of internal commands, including some
that are not well known, such as "TRUENAME".  It also needs to [MIS]name
the bundled programs as "External Commands"!


Once THAT is well established, then it will be time to write the
definitive Unix GUI, called "WINDOZE"


For those who don't like this idea, howzbout porting LDOS?


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 16 11:50:46 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:50:46 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <20111216094752.I18703@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Christian Corti wrote:
> Probably I'm wrong. I was under the impression that the only purpose of
> the NTSC was to define a new colour standard (Never The Same Colour).
> Whatever, I don't know of anything they did afterwards.

It's certainly what they are best known for.


SO,  . . .
is "RS-170" the RIGHT name to describe the USA TV signal?

(NB: as there was with RS232, there will end up being a corrupted not
quite compatible version called RADIO-SHACK 170)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Fri Dec 16 11:53:27 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:53:27 -0800
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/16/2011 1:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Josh Dersch wrote:
> > Wow, that's so elegant.  It only requires spawning two
> > processes, piping to a general purpose programming
> > language, and using regexps to make it work!
>
> Bear in mind that a big part of the Unix philosophy is that rather 
> than providing tools that directly do anything you might need, Unix 
> (and associated software) are intended to give you simple tools that 
> you can combine, such that you can easily get more expressive power 
> than can be provided by a single complex tool.  That includes 
> considering the shell as one of the tools.  It isn't intended that the 
> shell alone do everything you might want; it is fully expected that 
> you will have tasks that require piping commands together.

Absolutely, I'm well aware of the Unix "many small tools" philosophy.


>
> Whether that philosophy is appropriate for the average user, and 
> whether Unix and related software actually adhere to that philosophy 
> any more are debatable points.  Whether the shell should have any easy 
> way to rename all the files *.foo to *.bar is an interesting 
> question.  The fact that it is easy to do on DEC-like command parsers 
> doesn't imply that it's such a common operation that the shell should 
> offer it.  I would actually argue the opposite; since Unix shells have 
> been around for many years without anyone being convinced that that 
> capability is necessary, it is clear that it is not a common operation 
> for most people, and that it's OK to have to combine a few tools to do 
> it.

I don't agree with this general position (that because Unix doesn't have 
it, it's obvious that no one wants the behavior), actually (in general 
-- not necessarily in this specific case) but it's mostly a matter of 
opinion and I don't think we need yet another rathole on this mailing 
list about it :).

I -will- add that due to Unix's shell design (namely the decision that 
the shell expands wildcards on behalf of the tools it executes) that it 
does make it impossible (at least in a consistent manner) to enable some 
operations that I think *would* be useful in the general case.

For a basic example, if "rm" could know it was passed "*" as an argument 
it could (if not disabled with another flag of course) protect the user 
from purging his/her home directory with a friendly ("hey, you sure 
about this?") prompt?  (I know, I know -- Unix being friendly, what am I 
thinking, restrain yourselves.)

I know there are other ad hoc ways to solve the above problem, but the 
issue with the ad hoc methods is that they aren't consistent from one 
machine to another so you can't rely on them being present.

I realize this goes against another, unwritten, Unix philosophy: "Unix 
makes it easy to screw yourself to the wall, and that's a good thing 
because I'm l33t."  Remember that the next time you type "rm * .o" 
instead of "rm *.o" by mistake. :)

(Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)

- Josh




From dgahling at hotmail.com  Fri Dec 16 12:01:48 2011
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:01:48 -0500
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>,
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>,
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W460DE9315E701AE86D466EC9A00@phx.gbl>


Doesn't dosbox do most of this?
or how about the ms-dos utilities such as the mtools package?this provides mdir, mcopy, etc using standard dos file naming/usage
in the end, if you want to keep using dos, then use it, un*x isn't dos!
Dan.

> Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 09:43:44 -0800
> From: cisin at xenosoft.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? 
> 
> I have THE definitive solution for the original poster:
> 
> WRITE A NEW SHELL.  It would be the easiest way to get DOS-like filename
> handling capabilities with Unix.
> 
> Let's call it "CP.M"  (sorry, but '/' creates a few complications)
> It needs to have built-in commands of
> TYPE
> ERASE
> REN
> DIR
> USER
> and you will also need to write a few programs to go with it, such as
> PIP.COM and DDT.COM
> and optionally WS.COM and SC.COM
> 
> 
> Once it is well established, then you can write ANOTHER one called
> "COMMAND.COM"  It has a longer list of internal commands, including some
> that are not well known, such as "TRUENAME".  It also needs to [MIS]name
> the bundled programs as "External Commands"!
> 
> 
> Once THAT is well established, then it will be time to write the
> definitive Unix GUI, called "WINDOZE"
> 
> 
> For those who don't like this idea, howzbout porting LDOS?
> 
> 
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com
 		 	   		  

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 16 12:07:31 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 10:07:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Toaster analogy (Was: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFukbbOgVcBgdcSJr+ujazBb3kMrWKjoxBRG+6Whq=FqQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1RaZBP-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <CAMTenCFukbbOgVcBgdcSJr+ujazBb3kMrWKjoxBRG+6Whq=FqQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111216095828.P18703@shell.lmi.net>

> > > want and that just do it, with no more maintenance than a toaster.
> > Now leetys see... That means you want to take the case off and lcean out
> > the crumbs every couple of months and replace an element and adjust the
> > control mechanism about once a year... Or at least that's my experience
> > of toasters.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Liam Proven wrote:
> Working on & playing with are different things.
> As for toasters: occasionally I turn it upside down over the compost bin &
> tap it a few times to get the crumbs out. Anything else stops working, I
> recycle it & get a new one.
> That's more maintenance than I'd be willing to do to a TV set or landline
> phone  too...

In the early days of the Mac, it was often compared to a toaster.

The first time that I heard Stroustrup's telephone remark:
"I have always wished for my computer to be as easy to use as my
telephone;  my wish has come true because I can no longer figure out how
to use my telephone. "
my toaster jammed and incinerated the last two slices of rye bread in the
house.


From teoz at neo.rr.com  Fri Dec 16 12:40:51 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:40:51 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub 
converter possible?


> ben wrote:
>
>> Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
>> electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
>> few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
>> Ben.
>>
>
> So we all now have no problems with that, or what?
>
> We are all buying things day for day that while not lasting long gonig to
> the waste disposal. We are wasting the resources of our children...
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
> -- 

Depending how fast (and how much) the junk is recycled it could keep strip 
mining for new materials down. How much of that old stuff that lasted 
forever just ended up in the dump to rot and leach poisons into the ground? 
There will eventually be some kind of compromise for longer life and cleaner 
99% recycling.




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec 16 12:55:43 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:55:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> I -will- add that due to Unix's shell design (namely the decision
> that the shell expands wildcards on behalf of the tools it executes)
> that it does make it impossible (at least in a consistent manner) to
> enable some operations that I think *would* be useful in the general
> case.

> For a basic example, if "rm" could know it was passed "*" as an
> argument it could [] protect the user [...]

I think it's no coincidence that most Lisp systems provide a way to
write not only functions that eval their arguments, but `functions'
that get passed their arguments unevaled.

Some of the reasons for this have no analog here.  But some are fairly
closely analogous.

If we could invent some way for a program to indicate, pre-exec, that
it wants unglobbed (`unevaled') arguments, this might be doable.

Or, perhaps, programs always get globbed arguments, but there's some
way for them to obtain the arglist in its pre-globbing form.
main(argc,argv,envp,preglobargv)?

> (I know, I know -- Unix being friendly, what am I thinking, restrain
> yourselves.)

I know, I know...but there's some truth here.  Two different truths, in
fact.  One truth is that there is strong pressure against "friendly" in
Unix.  The other is that, as consistent and predictable as the Unix
mechanisms are, and as valuable as that consistency is, they do have
downsides.

I think there are major parts of the pressure against "friendly" -
which, as it is usually used, really means "novice-friendly".

One is that novice-friendly correlates remarkably well with
expert-hostile.  This is somewhat inevitable, since part of being
novice-friendly is preventing self-foot-shooting - but expert-friendly
means not preventing stupid things because that also prevents clever
things.  Not surprisingly, the experts who would have to implement
novice-friendliness are rather, um, hostile, to expert-hostile things.

The other is that novice-friendly also means logically inconsistent
special cases.  I'm not sure why this is; I speculate that it's because
humans are not logical creatures, so working the way a human, at least
a na?ve human, expects involves accurately matching a bunch of messy
heuristics.  This means that it's difficult to do at all, _extremely_
difficult to get right, and possibly even completely impossible to get
right for more than one person at a time.

This is why I'm not looking for a way to "fix" rm.  I'm looking for a
generalized facility that can be used to "fix" rm as a special case.
It is much more in keeping with the Unix philosophy to introduce a new
pattern than to introduce a special case.

> I realize this goes against another, unwritten, Unix philosophy:
> "Unix makes it easy to screw yourself to the wall, and that's a good
> thing because I'm l33t."

That's not the Unix philosophy.  That's a the philosophy of a wannabe
who doesn't yet understand.  The Unix philsophy leading to many of the
same observed effects as that one is actually "don't prevent stupid
things because doing so also prevents clever things".  To the extent
that stupid things can be prevented without also preventing clever
things, it's often done, and rarely objected to.

> Remember that the next time you type "rm * .o" instead of "rm *.o" by
> mistake. :)

I don't think I've ever done that.  I _have_ done "rm *>o" (actually,
I'm not sure I've done it with rm; I've certainly done the same thing,
mutatis mutandis of course, with other commands).

> (Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)

Har.  Anyone who thinks Unix gurus never make typos is clearly not a
Unix guru.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 13:12:20 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:12:20 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg at mail.gmail.com>,
    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:

> Where are you going to put all those IBM 3270 terminals?

...in your collection :-)
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 13:13:10 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:13:10 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <E1RbdDS-0005nl-Lg@shell.xmission.com>


In article <20111216085714.GA18042 at Update.UU.SE>,
    Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> writes:

> It is a very impressive collection you have there. I spot a DG dasher (I 
> think) and an Informer (I have one of those: 
> http://www.pdp8.se/slask/Informer_front.jpg).

Yes on both.  There are two Dashers, actually.  The nicer one I got
from another listmember.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 16 13:16:35 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:16:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W460DE9315E701AE86D466EC9A00@phx.gbl>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>, 
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>,
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
 <BLU166-W460DE9315E701AE86D466EC9A00@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <20111216111540.X18703@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Dan Gahlinger wrote:
> Doesn't dosbox do most of this?
> or how about the ms-dos utilities such as the mtools package?this provides mdir, mcopy, etc using standard dos file naming/usage
> in the end, if you want to keep using dos, then use it, un*x isn't dos!
> Dan.

Thank you!

Dan understands what I am saying!




From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 13:18:25 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:18:25 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE>
Message-ID: <E1RbdIX-0006IE-CN@shell.xmission.com>


In article <20111216085714.GA18042 at Update.UU.SE>,
    Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> writes:

> On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 03:50:10PM -0700, Richard wrote:
> > Moved into shelving:
> > - Nuclear Data ND600 and ND6600 terminals
> 
> Hmm, I think I have, or used to have, a board for an ND600 terminal.

I'd like to see a pic of that if you still have it.  The boards *in*
the terminal are just the high voltage drive of the CRT and the
keyboard switch encoder.  There really is nothing else in there.  In
the rack with the ND812 are some peripheral card cages with a number
of cards in them.  I'm hoping that one or more of those cards are the
interface to the terminals; I don't have any docs on the peripheral
boxes that go with the ND812.

I know that Nuclear Data provided graphical output as an option to
their machines.  I'm hoping that the peripheral control boards for
these terminals provide some sort of graphics display.  If so, it
would be the oldest graphics machine that I have in the collection.

> I'm curious about the small thing at the bottom of the shelf next to 
> this rack. A small box with a keyboard on top, what is that?

It's an RTTY terminal that uses a composite monitor for a display,
IIRC.

> And finaly, what is that we se the backside of in picture dsc_0604.jpg, 
> is it a lisp machine?

That's the back of an Eve (successor to the Lilith Modula-2 machine).
Now that things are roomier at the new location, I should be able to
get Jos Dreesen some pics of the boards so he can compare them to the
Lilith.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Dec 16 13:19:14 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:19:14 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB759B.8030301@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
 <FE7D2ABD-5B4D-44FE-9907-79616DEF06EF@mainecoon.com>
 <4EEB759B.8030301@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4FA06829-1DDE-460D-AE7E-992ACF5B4181@mainecoon.com>


On 16 Dec 2011, at 8:45 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> It would have been better (IMHO) to shift the sound subcarrier frequency by 0.1%, and keep the scan rate the same.

Without a doubt.

>  None of the existing receiving equipment (televisions) of the day had a precise enough sound demodulator that this would have made any difference whatsoever.  I told that the FCC wouldn't let them shift the sound carrier, but I have no idea why.  

I find it particularly odd given that the first NTSC committee was happy to radically change the deviation on the audio carrier (from 75kHz to 25kHz).  I've heard claims that NTSC 1950 chose to tinker with the rate in the holy name of compatibility (i.e., that existing B&W receivers would not have been able to properly recover audio) and that because NTSC 1940 includes the horizontal and vertical sync information that the video portion of the receiver was inherently more accommodating to the change.  I'm skeptical, and as a kid in the 1960s I think I would have preferred slightly poorer audio to having to randomly tweak the vertical hold.

> The result is the 0.1% shift in the scan rate, which resulted in the need for really awkward and inconvenient stuff like drop-frame time code.

As well as borking the original genius of the 525 line number vis. the divider chain and control of the master oscillator by reference to line frequency.

> Nevertheless, I think that RCA and the second NTSC did some of the most amazing and underappreciated engineering of the twentieth century.

Absolutely; these guys did amazing things with a relatively small number of vacuum tubes that were subject to aging and thermal drift.  Valensi's luminance-chrominance encoding system dates to 1938 and the use of it to maintain compatibility with existing B&W receivers was both a brilliant move and a demanding piece of engineering.  While NTSC sometime gets bashed as an inferior system because of problems due to differential phase distortion, it's also the coding system for S-Video; since S-Video eliminates phase distortion NTSC color encoding results in the highest picture resolution on the horizontal axis and the highest frame rate of the three systems.

Then there's the political angle; if RCA hadn't sued to stop deployment of the CBS system we might have all grown up with spinning color wheels :P

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 13:19:32 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:19:32 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <4EEB48F2.20700@bluewin.ch>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <20111216085714.GA18042@Update.UU.SE> <4EEB48F2.20700@bluewin.ch>
Message-ID: <E1RbdJc-0006Lw-KP@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EEB48F2.20700 at bluewin.ch>,
    Jos Dreesen <jdr_use at bluewin.ch> writes:

> A Diser Lilith Modula-2 machine.
> Or is it an Eve ?
> .... in which  case they share the same cabinet.

AFAIK, they are all Eves.

> Seriously rare beast in any case,  and of which I would love to  see
> PCB pictures !

Now that there is more room for me to work, I might be able to get
those pictures taken in Q1 of 2012.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 13:21:41 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:21:41 -0700
Subject: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <E1RbdLh-0006X4-Hf@shell.xmission.com>


On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>   $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'
>
> Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).

for %f in (*) do ren %f %f.old

Seriously, this isn't difficult in DOS.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Dec 16 13:23:05 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:23:05 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111216094752.I18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112161102380.4714@linuxserv.home>
 <20111216094752.I18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <1547BD7D-01C7-475B-9342-05BFB5171F66@mainecoon.com>


On 16 Dec 2011, at 9:50 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:

> 
> is "RS-170" the RIGHT name to describe the USA TV signal?

If you say RS-170a most people will know what you're trying to say; if you want to be pedantic it's System M with NTSC color or more simply NTSC-M.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 13:25:46 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:25:46 -0700
Subject: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <E1RbdPe-0006si-7P@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EEAAE4D.7070609 at mail.msu.edu>,
    Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu> writes:

> On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> >
> >
> > But in any ahem Unix system, you can already do, ad hoc:
> >
> >   $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/ && rename($_, "$1.old");'
> >
> > Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).
> 
> Wow, that's so elegant.  It only requires spawning two processes, piping 
> to a general purpose programming language, and using regexps to make it 
> work!
> 
> Wait, is elegant the word I want to use here?  Hmm.

I would have done (csh)

foreach f (*.log)
mv $f `basename $f .log`.old
end

sh variants work as well.  I think using basename is much more
readable than piping into perl and using perl to do the rename.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 16 13:26:13 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 11:26:13 -0800
Subject: Toaster analogy (Was: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <20111216095828.P18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAMTenCFukbbOgVcBgdcSJr+ujazBb3kMrWKjoxBRG+6Whq=FqQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111216095828.P18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EEB2AD5.15550.71F305@cclist.sydex.com>

My current toaster, a 2-slice Hamilton-Beach in white enamel, cost $5 
new--I recently saw it for $7.  I'll pop the bottom and dump the 
crumbs, but not much more than that, given the price.

And that's me, who hates throwing anything away.  But there are 
limits.

Make computers/mobile phones/tablets cheap enough and there's no 
reason to repair them, assuming that you could (which is not a given 
today).

--Chuck




From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Dec 16 14:00:00 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:00:00 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddZ_An-4LMXFHxS1g8LfVYu3rJnWR60qZRxzH6sbz6-AQ@mail.gmail.com>

>> Where are you going to put all those IBM 3270 terminals?
>
> ...in your collection :-)

You do not have to like them, but you do have to embrace them.

--
Will


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 16 14:11:03 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:11:03 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111216165005.GE28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
 <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEA374B.4000506@neurotica.com>
 <20111216165005.GE28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEBA5D7.8030200@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 11:50 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>>>>   http://www.neurotica.com/misc/chinese_capacitor.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Almost laughed out loud at that one.  Seems like it would cost more to
>>>> make the fake if it weren't done by the millions.
>>>
>>> Don't think that this one is real. It is on the web for years now and still
>>> reappearing from time to time.
>>
>>    While I can't speak to the provenance of this particular one, Chinese
>> component clones are a very real, very large problem in the electronics
>> industry, making it into the industry news media each and every week.
>> Given the state of the industry at this point, there's no reason at all
>> to suspect it to be a hoax.
>
> May be Dave, I had Problems with some Transistors in the past,
> but they are made from automatic fabrics.
> That thing on the picture can't be made this way, and producing this as a
> mass product would be more expansive than making the entire electrolytic
> capacitor itself. This thing for sure is a hoax.

   I don't agree.  It certainly *may* be, but there's no compelling 
reason to say so "for sure".  I work in the electronics industry; 
counterfeit components are a very real, very big, very current problem 
here.  That's not me guessing, wondering, or saying it may be so; this 
is a well known thing throughout the industry...a simple verifiable 
fact.  There was another big article about it in a weekly trade rag just 
yesterday, and there's lots of new legislation happening to try to curb it.

   As far as the capacitor-within-a-capacitor in the picture, don't 
underestimate the cheapness of Chinese labor.  I'm sure they have 
children cranking those out by the hundred every day.  With bigger 
capacitors costing several dollars apiece, especially high-temp and 
low-ESR capacitors, the demand for which is skyrocketing now, it's 
probably even more profitable than relabeling cheap chips as expensive 
ones and flooding them onto the market.

> I have no problem when you say, that there may be Rubicon lookalikes on
> the market that doesn't hold the specs, but not such a thing.
> Remeber: Chineses are making cheap things, but they aren't idiots for sure.

   They're certainly quite smart; a lot smarter than the rest of us it 
seems.  So, since they're making and exporting counterfeit components by 
the container load, they must see quite a profit from it.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 16 14:14:46 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 12:14:46 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4FA06829-1DDE-460D-AE7E-992ACF5B4181@mainecoon.com>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>, <4EEB759B.8030301@brouhaha.com>,
 <4FA06829-1DDE-460D-AE7E-992ACF5B4181@mainecoon.com>
Message-ID: <4EEB3636.32609.9E67D1@cclist.sydex.com>

On 16 Dec 2011 at 11:19, Christian Kennedy wrote:

> Then there's the political angle; if RCA hadn't sued to stop
> deployment of the CBS system we might have all grown up with spinning
> color wheels :P

Why?  Do you think that development of the tri-color CRT would have 
been prevented by adoption of the field-sequential color system?

Instead, we had to put up with terrible color for decades.  I 
remember the CBS color system--some CBS-branded sets of the time even 
had octal (or dodecar) sockets at the back of the chassis for the 
colorwheel adapter.

Compared to the green skin tones of the RCA system, the CBS color 
rendition was superb.  Europe had the right idea--instead of rushing 
something half-baked to market.

Granted, I saw only demonstrations of the CBS color system, but I  
remember that the local electronics surplus dealer had big wooden 
crates full of now-useless color wheels.  I'm sorry that I didn't 
pick up a few.

--Chuck





From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 16 14:23:10 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:23:10 -0700
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <CANij+ddZ_An-4LMXFHxS1g8LfVYu3rJnWR60qZRxzH6sbz6-AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+ddZ_An-4LMXFHxS1g8LfVYu3rJnWR60qZRxzH6sbz6-AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RbeJC-0003J3-UK@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CANij+ddZ_An-4LMXFHxS1g8LfVYu3rJnWR60qZRxzH6sbz6-AQ at mail.gmail.com>,
    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:

> >> Where are you going to put all those IBM 3270 terminals?
> >
> > ...in your collection :-)
> 
> You do not have to like them, but you do have to embrace them.

....but they smell icky.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 16 14:28:31 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:28:31 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBA9EF.7070101@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 02:12 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg at mail.gmail.com>,
>      William Donzelli<wdonzelli at gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> Where are you going to put all those IBM 3270 terminals?
>
> ...in your collection :-)

   You know (though I think you both have my mail filtered) I could 
really use a handful of those, and will happily take them off your hands 
if they're in your way.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 16 14:28:55 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:28:55 -0500
Subject: Computer Graphics Museum Sprawl 4
In-Reply-To: <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RbK7u-0002XN-Os@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RbdCe-0005kR-TH@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBAA07.9050407@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 02:12 PM, Richard wrote:
> In article<CANij+ddPTbGcp7jsn4OQ707=6wPq-rNUwVm64HDkJdhU5ncySg at mail.gmail.com>,
>      William Donzelli<wdonzelli at gmail.com>  writes:
>
>> Where are you going to put all those IBM 3270 terminals?
>
> ...in your collection :-)

   You know (though I think you both have my mail filtered) I could 
really use a handful of those, and will happily take them off your hands 
if they're in your way.  Assuming they have keyboards of course.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From db at db.net  Fri Dec 16 14:32:36 2011
From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:32:36 -0500
Subject: Filenames containing newlines - Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEABC02.2000903@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112160244.VAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEAB664.4090502@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEABC02.2000903@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111216203236.GC86374@night.db.net>

On Thu, Dec 15, 2011 at 10:33:22PM -0500, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 15/12/11 10:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> >On 15/12/11 9:44 PM, Mouse wrote:
> >>[Please trim your quotes!]

eep My favourite story was at BNR years ago. There were unix (SUN) systems
ending up with files with '/' embedded in the filename itself. Of course
removing or renaming such a filename was impossible without fsdb.
It turned out MAC users on the appletalk<->NFS gateway were using '/'
as a separation character in dates. That misfeature was corrected  finally
in the software.

- Diane
-- 
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
  Why leave money to our children if we don't leave them the Earth?


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 16 14:58:51 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 15:58:51 -0500
Subject: gzip's behavior,
 was Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCER5VT-DowmVtAXUS-yu2JENY+5MjiqMNuSBZWnqonuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <201112122243.RAA12947@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCEON0Vo--nv01hjdqW0EEAvN0kxacptK5FjPOdpVOCYAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111213052258.GE32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <CAMTenCHo=poewvs7Md6A=_6Q6CSQQnxafSDY=KD1-N8mArr9Cg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE7F8ED.6040903@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCER5VT-DowmVtAXUS-yu2JENY+5MjiqMNuSBZWnqonuPQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBB10B.70800@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 09:07 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>> It unpacks to the name(s) of the file(s) [and folders] in the archive
>>> and leaves the original archive the fsck alone.
>>>
>>> In my early Linux days, I was /very/ annoyed several times when Gunzip
>>> cheerfully *removed the archive I told it to unpack*. This is
>>> *absolutely* unacceptable to my mind.
>>
>>   Why?  Because it differs from another tool that you may have been
> accustomed to?  If that's why, be aware that gzip's user interface is
> patterned after a tool that far predates pkzip/pkarc/arc/etc, and that
> behavior has been the accepted one that has been considered logical and
> good since the 1970s.
>>
>>   Also be advised that you didn't tell it to unpack an archive (something
> gzip doesn't do), you told it to decompress a compressed file.  Tar (say)
> doesn't remove a tar file after extracting its contents, because...well,
> cheerfully removing the archive you told it to unpack would be absolutely
> unacceptable.
>>
>>   Decompressing a compressed file is a whole different animal; you can get
> things right back where they were (if you need to) with a single command.
>   The only possible difference is the original user's compression setting,
> and I respectfully submit that the loss of that information isn't
> frequently a big deal.
>>
>>   File compression is something that you "do" to a single file.  Should
> "undoing" it result in two copies of the file, one with it "done" and the
> other with it "undone"?  THAT seems ridiculous to me.
>
> To each their own. Decompression if a file is, to me, a process of reading
> the compressed file&  wiring an uncompressed one. That the UNIX tradition
> appears to be "oh yeah, do that&  feel free to tamper with the source as
> well" does not wash.
>
> I am no respecter or admirer of tradition. Tradition is often wrong.

   With this I agree 100%...

> I am of course prepared to be educated&  told why this is wrong, but I will
> only be persuaded if the reasons are really remarkably good ives.

   ...however, having first executed "compress" pushing thirty years 
ago, and working exclusively in the UNIX world (except for some VMS) 
since not too long after that, this is the first and only time I've ever 
heard it suggested that this behavior is somehow a bad idea.

   I'm not saying you're wrong, just saying you're in a vanishingly 
small minority in that opinion.  Not saying that *means* anything, just 
pointing it out.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From RichA at vulcan.com  Fri Dec 16 14:59:35 2011
From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:59:35 +0000
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file
 extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E9F22@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>

From: Eric Smith
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 1:17 AM

> Personally I use a shell for loop with mv and basename, like:

>     for f in *.foo; do mv $f `basename $f .foo`.bar; done

> That won't work when you want to change something other than the suffix 
> of a file, so knowledge of other Unix tools is helpful.  For more 
> complex mass renamings, which I do even less frequently, I do tend to 
> use sed for filename manipulation.  It's more powerful, but not as easy 
> to use.  On the other hand, it's less powerful than Perl.  I don't view 
> that as a disadvantage.  I don't want a ten pound sledge when I need to 
> drive a finishing nail.

For this kind of thing, I revert to tcsh (explicitly invoked from the bash
prompt):

	% foreach F (*.foo)
	> set R=$F:r
	> mv $F $R.bar
	> end

All kinds of editing can be accomplished with :h, :t, :r, and :e, so it's
easy to change things other than the suffix.  (I have been using ksh and
bash for 20 years, and still can't remember the equivalents of tcsh's
editing modifiers.  My guilty secret.)


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104

mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/



From eric at brouhaha.com  Fri Dec 16 15:51:49 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:51:49 -0800
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E9F22@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E9F22@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBBD75.7030101@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:
 > ersonally I use a shell for loop with mv and basename, like:
 >       for f in *.foo; do mv $f `basename $f .foo`.bar; done
 > That won't work when you want to change something other
 > than the suffix of a file,

Rich Alderson wrote:
 > For this kind of thing, I revert to tcsh (explicitly invoked
 > from the bash prompt):
 >         % foreach F (*.foo)
 > > set R=$F:r
 > > mv $F $R.bar
 > > end
 > All kinds of editing can be accomplished with :h, :t, :r,
 > and :e, so it's easy to change things other than the suffix.
 > (I have been using ksh and bash for 20 years, and still
 > can't remember the equivalents of tcsh's editing modifiers.

Bash does have pattern matching in variable expansion.  Changing the 
suffix can be done by:

         for f in *.foo; do mv $f ${f/%.foo/.bar}; done

Which is arguably simpler than my earlier example using command 
substitution (backtick) with basename.  The part between the slashes is 
the "pattern", and the part after the second slash is the replacement 
string.  Patterns are not full regular expressions, but just the usual 
shell globbing characters.  The '%' at the beginning of the pattern 
means to match the pattern only at the end of the string; you can use a 
'#' to match at the beginning, or neither to match anywhere.

I also sometimes have to rename files from mixed case or all caps to all 
lower case, and bash has an expansion feature useful for that, too:

         for f in *; do mv $f ${f,,}; done

',,' means convert all characters to lower case.  '^^' would convert to 
all upper case.

There's obviously a lot more that bash can do than what I've described.  
For the fancier stuff I always wind up RingTFM.

Eric



From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Dec 16 15:51:33 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 13:51:33 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB3636.32609.9E67D1@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <m1RbJeD-000J4PC@p850ug1>, <4EEB759B.8030301@brouhaha.com>,
 <4FA06829-1DDE-460D-AE7E-992ACF5B4181@mainecoon.com>
 <4EEB3636.32609.9E67D1@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <C1C78AFF-61F5-4327-8E46-DC91F68D56ED@mainecoon.com>


On 16 Dec 2011, at 12:14 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 16 Dec 2011 at 11:19, Christian Kennedy wrote:
> 
>> Then there's the political angle; if RCA hadn't sued to stop
>> deployment of the CBS system we might have all grown up with spinning
>> color wheels :P
> 
> Why?  Do you think that development of the tri-color CRT would have 
> been prevented by adoption of the field-sequential color system?

I don't think that development of the *CRT* would have been prevented but the deployment of a *television system* that used them to advantage probably would have been.  The CBS system was incompatible with the existing NTSC system, reduced line count from 525 to 405 and while it increased the field rate to 144 it had an effective rate of only 24 frames per second.  In some respects RCA's lawsuit and the National Production Authority order were clearly designed to make the CBS system non-viable thanks to the growing installed base of B&W NTSC receivers, but that doesn't mean that the much more complex NTSC system wasn't in the end technically superior to the CBS field sequential system.  Seriously, the Columbia 12CC2 receiver was an impressive kludge, but a kludge nevertheless, and one that pointed up a problem with the color wheel system with respect to larger screen sizes (although the subsequent drum receivers somewhat addressed that problem).

Note that I'm not arguing that field-sequential is inherently inferior, only that the NTSC solution was a highly serviceable one that preserved the installed base.  Many modern DLP projectors use color wheels running at some multiple of the frame rate.

Then there was the whole colordaptor thing:  NTSC color signals converted to field-sequential in order to drive a color wheel placed in front of an existing NTSC B&W television.  These things were both homebrewed and available from some television manufacturers, but the consumer saw them as a kludge.

> Instead, we had to put up with terrible color for decades.

In part that's due to the difference between the original NTSC (1953) colorimetry and the response curves of the phosphors that manufacturers ended up using. The phosphors originally specified had better color (probably better than modern CRTs) but were inefficient and slow (to the point that images smeared); receiver manufacturers responded by changing the phosphors in their tubes and then doing parlor tricks with the signals to try to map from the 1953 colorimetry to the response curves of their chosen phosphors.  Given that the transmitted signals are gamma corrected it's hard (or perhaps impossible) to accurately perform this mapping in analog space so the results were always a manufacturer-specific approximation of the broadcast colors.  Somewhere in 68 or 69 RCA and Conrac proposed a new set of control phosphors for use in broadcast video monitors that became the SMPTE C spec, in 1987 (this dragged on for a while) it was adopted into SMPTE 170M. Of course both PAL and SECAM used the original NTSC colorimetry as well, at least until 1970, but rather than allowing color correction in the receiver the EBU directly encoded signals for EBU colorimetry values.  That's what NTSC should have done from the outset, but going back and taking the covers off the spec to add that was a non-starter.

The other source of crappy color in early NTSC was the fact that the color burst phase would tend to drift when you changed the channel, hence the dreaded "tint" control (both NTSC and PAL sets had hue controls, but in the case of PAL sets it was usually buried in the set and only touched at the factory or during repair). The problem largely resolved itself when vacuum devices were replaced by solid state devices. 
 

>  I 
> remember the CBS color system--some CBS-branded sets of the time even 
> had octal (or dodecar) sockets at the back of the chassis for the 
> colorwheel adapter.

True CBS-compatible sets also had a "color/monochrome" switch that changed the behavior of the vertical oscillator and horizontal sync circuits as well as the gook to sync the color wheel to the vertical sync pulse and to brake the wheel and then position it to "clear" segments when viewing B&W programming.

> 
> Compared to the green skin tones of the RCA system, the CBS color 
> rendition was superb.  Europe had the right idea--instead of rushing 
> something half-baked to market.

CBS had great color because it didn't use phosphors.  PAL and SECAM have great color because they wedged correction factors into the signal.  NTSC had crappy colors because they assumed that they knew what the phosphors would look like but they were wrong; the analog would be the CBS system with each manufacturer using differing hues on the color wheel.  How fabulous would that color rendition have been?

> 
> Granted, I saw only demonstrations of the CBS color system, but I  
> remember that the local electronics surplus dealer had big wooden 
> crates full of now-useless color wheels.  I'm sorry that I didn't 
> pick up a few.

They weren't useless, since it was possible to obtain (or build) aftermarket adapters to allow NTSC color to be rendered on a NTSC B&W set using a color wheel -- the consumer just didn't want them.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:07:24 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:07:24 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA81BC.8090007@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 15,
 11 06:24:44 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rbfw6-000J43C@p850ug1>

> > I thoguht in the end he managed to get the FET circuit to be better than
> > the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).
> 
>    No.  His initial attempt with a FET didn't perform all that well (if 
> memory serves), but in the end his very complex circuit with (I think) 
> three high-end opamps and an LED-driven photocell did end up 
> outperforming the incandescent lamp design.

Isn't that basically what I said?

I didn't; realise he used an LED + LDR in the cirucit. It's a long time 
sinc eI read the book, so I must have forgotten that. I'd sort-of assumed 
it used only purely electronic (as opposed to optoelectornic) parts

> 
> >>     That's a fascinating read; I'll try to find a pointer if you're
> >> interested. (I have the saga in a paper book, "Analog Circuit Design:
> >> Art, Science, and Personalites", one of my favorite books)
> >
> > YEs, a great book. Along with Bob Pease's book ('Analog circuit
> > troubleshooting' or soemthign like that). Well worth reading.
> 
>    I shall have to obtain a copy of this book.

I will try to dgi out my copy and post the exact title, ISBN, etc if you 
like. I maye have misrememebered the title above, but _anything_ by Bob 
Pease is IMHO worth reading (ditto Jim Williams) [1], and if you find a 
book with those sorts of words in the title, it's probably the one.

[1] I don't necessarily agree with everythign they write, but it's all 
worth reading. To be abvle to disagree with it you have to understand it, 
and you'll learn a lot by so doing...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:13:41 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:13:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111215151031.Y84160@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 15,
 11 03:26:35 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rbg2C-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> On Thu, 15 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
> > Sinec there s composite output on one of hte pins of hte DIN socket (and
> > a techncial manual giving the pinout was availagble i nthe Radio Shack
> > shops over here -- the service manual for the monitor had to be ordered
> > though), I wonder why you voided the wwrranty just for that.
> 
> Because I had some Glyptol (tamper-evident paint), to re-instate the

I got quite good at peelign the lable over the screw off CoCos 
non-destructively. I then would stick it on a piece of rub-down-lettering 
backing paper and put it back o nthe case if I ever needed to return the 
machine. Actually, I nver did. IO probably still ahve the labels somewhere...

> warranty :-)   Later, in order to get some of the free "upgrades" (mostly
> related to CPU/EI cabling), I repainted the screw.  So long as we
> provided him with schematics of the mods, the local RS "tech" was willing
> to look at the paint on the screw and declare the machine to have "never
> been tampered with", in spite of after market numeric pad, add-in board
> for reverse video, lower case, a few additional keys, etc.  "Since the
> screw was painted, any mods must have been done "boat in a bottle" style,
> which is not prohibited by twe warranty"

:-) To be fair, most techs (as opposed to jobsworths and salesdroids) 
would regard you as clueful if you could do such mods, and would 
therefore assume that the fualt was not due to you wreckign the machine. 

> 
> 
> > Why not
> > solder the wires to a 5 pin DIN plug and stick it in the right hole?
> 
> I wanted to see what I was connecting to, didn't have the manual yet,

You mananged to find the composite output, and didn't trace it to the DIN 
socket?

> I didn't have any 5-pin DINs, the local electronics surplus "Electronics
> Etc" was out of them!, and by that time, I was committed, and I knew that
> I wanted UHF or RCA for the connector.

I guess DIN plugs are much more commopnly used over here. Some of the 
more obscure ones are hard to find , but the 5 pin type A is very common...

> 
> I did poke wires into the cassette 5 pin DIN

You mean you didn't buy the ofifical cable (the one that IBM wanted you 
to buy for hte 5150)? I must have a fair number of those around.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:17:53 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:17:53 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C6116F6@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local> from
 "Shoppa, Tim" at Dec 15, 11 06:37:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rbg6G-000J49C@p850ug1>

> I had previously met Sir Denys Wilkinson and he had mentioned something t=
> o me about his pioneering days in nuclear instrumentation (including pinb=
> all machine multichannel analyzers). When he had told me that he had inve=
> nted the D/A converter I didn't really believe him but kinda nodded along=

Depends on what you mean by D-A i guess...

In one of my old books on electric lighting they suggest lighting a large 
room by 15 light bulbs in a 3*5 array o nthe ceiling and controllign them 
by 4 switches, thus giving 15 levels of illumination (I guess 'all off' 
is not illumination :-)). THye even give the best way to arrange the 
light bubls controleld by each switch, so as to get fairly evnn 
illumination in all cases. I consdier that ot be a D-A.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:22:44 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:22:44 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112160012.TAA23067@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 15, 11 07:12:20 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbgAy-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> 
> >>> IIRC mo purely linear system can produce stable oscillations [...]
> 
> >> On the one hand, that feels right.
> 
> >> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that [...] uses a FET
> >> as a variable resistor, and trying to figure out where it's got
> >> anything nonlinear in it (assuming the amplifier is running class
> >> A).
> 
> > I was using 'linear' in its mathemtical sense.
> 
> So was I.
> 
> > It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not
> > linear.
> 
> Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in the
> FET-based version.  I'm probably just missing something.  (Does a FET,
> modeled as a voltage-controlled resistor, count as nonlinear, assuming
> it stays in the region where the model is reasonably accurate and
> linear?  Seems linear to me, but perhaps I'm missing something there
> too.)

Any amplifierr with AGC, n matter how it's designed, is non-linear.

The acion of the AGC reduces the amplifer gain as the input signal
amplitued increases. If you give it an input signal A, you get out B
(=(gain_for_this_signa)*A).  But if you put in a signal 2*A, the output 
is _less_ than 2*B because the larger input signal has caused the AGC to 
reduce the amplifier gian. That instantly makes it non-linear.

> > The name of this student was William Hewlett.  The product was the
> > model 200A audio oscillator.
> 
> Hm, I have some very old (steel case with, I think, brown speckle
> finish, all-valve construction, land-anchor weight) HP electronics.
> I should check model numbers; I might even have a 200A.

That would be fun. The later models in the renge (similar circuitry) are 
not thast rare (they turn up on Ebay quite often), but shipping one 
across the Pond would be rather expensice, and while I'd like a model 200 o
o some flavour it's probably not worth that much to me.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:51:49 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:51:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <05F6332E-C22D-468C-9E79-29B75B1719A4@mainecoon.com> from
 "Christian Kennedy" at Dec 16, 11 08:34:45 am
Message-ID: <m1Rbgd6-000J4WC@p850ug1>

[NTSC colour encoding, analogue video, etc]

> Technically it's not obsolete; translators, low power stations and 
> class A stations are still authorized to broadcast analog; I don't 
> believe the FCC has specified a cut-off date for such stations. 

Is there anything to stop radio amateurs transmitting such signal after 
it's no longer used by the broadcasters? (on appropraite amateur bands, 
of course). Over here, the regualtions only relay prohibit 'secret codes 
and ciphers', I don;'t see how a publsihed video standard would come 
under that, and I know that a few such enthuiasts over here have 
transmitted 405 lien System A signals to each other (totally legally). 

If you made such a transissionm using 625 line/ 50Hz verticla video 
timing but NTSC-like colour encoding (PAL-without-the-filp)  what do you 
call it?

I also beleive that ther were a few tests done over here using 
BNTSC-liencolour encoding on 405 line System A (before it was decided to 
use 625 lines and PAL). and that there is one of the experiemental 
receivers in a msueum collection over here. Whad do you clal that signal?

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:25:17 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:25:17 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 15, 11 04:22:53 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbgDR-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 15 Dec 2011 at 22:34, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > So my question is : If you use ''NTSC-like' colour encoding (phase
> > angle is the hue, amplitude is the saturation -- think of it as being
> > PAL without the altehrnate line flip) on a 625 line 50Hz vertical
> > svideo signal, what do you call it? Coloquially it's often called
> > 'NTSC 50Hz, or even NTSC-I (or NTSC-B/G) but those names are clearly
> > wrogn if you're being pedantic about it. What is the right neam?
> 
> "Obsolete".
> 
> Well, perhaps "obsolescent".  A quick check of the old UHF TV 

Yes, OK, it may be obsolete _for broadcasting_, but there must sitll be 
stuff around that uses iy. This is classiccmp after all, I am sure there 
are similar people who messaround with old TV and video equipment (I know 
for a fact there are people ove rhere to run 405 line System A sets, for 
all there have been no system A broadcasts for 30 years or so).

In any case, I feel there should be a way of describing such a signal, 
even if nobody is currently using it.

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 16 16:42:58 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:42:58 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFukbbOgVcBgdcSJr+ujazBb3kMrWKjoxBRG+6Whq=FqQ@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 16, 11 02:01:56 pm
Message-ID: <m1RbgUZ-000J4SC@p850ug1>

[TOaster repairs]

> Working on & playing with are different things.

I can assure you I have many more interesting things to work on that 
toasters... But I have to keep it working...

> 
> As for toasters: occasionally I turn it upside down over the compost bin &
> tap it a few times to get the crumbs out. Anything else stops working, I
> recycle it & get a new one.

Oh well... The otster here has 2 elements in series, you get the complete 
assemnbly as a spare part. Of  ocurse I  relaised that you cvould cut the 
interconnecitng iwere of the old pair nad keep the good element. After 2 
such replaceements you had a good pair of elements which could go back 
in (the connecting wire gets soldered together and insulated by a bit of 
Pyrex tubing), which would keep it goign for a bit longer...

> 
> That's more maintenance than I'd be willing to do to a TV set or landline
> phone  too...
>

You are psekaign to the chap who rebuilt a Dial 54...

Let me eplain. The rotary dial telephones from the GPO era had a variety 
of dial mechanisms fiteds. The Dial 54 was the last and cheapest one, 
made mostly of plastic. It weas not designed ot be repaired. There is 
also IMH Oad design fault. The mainspring that returns the dial to the 
'normal' postion has its inner end fitted into a slot cut in tn the 
breaing tubbe for the central spindle, this is all integrally moulded 
with the plastic dial chassis. In time the plastic cracs and the spring 
is no logner anchiored. Of coruse then the dial doesn;r work, 

I have such a dial in the 740 telehone on to pof my Modem 13A (so this is 
jsut about on-topic). It failed as above. I tottally dismantled it, cut 
away the repamisn of the old bearing and made a new part from brass with 
a flange to lcoate on the plastic chassis. I fitted that in place with 3 
small screes. The mainspring fits into a slot in the brass part which is 
a lot stronger than the origianl. 

Yes, I do repair telehones. I even repair modern landline telehones...

-tony

 



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 16 17:13:33 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 18:13:33 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1Rbfw6-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rbfw6-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEBD09D.6080403@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 05:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>> I thoguht in the end he managed to get the FET circuit to be better than
>>> the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).
>>
>>     No.  His initial attempt with a FET didn't perform all that well (if
>> memory serves), but in the end his very complex circuit with (I think)
>> three high-end opamps and an LED-driven photocell did end up
>> outperforming the incandescent lamp design.
>
> Isn't that basically what I said?

   Nope.  His final circuit didn't use the FET.

> I didn't; realise he used an LED + LDR in the cirucit. It's a long time
> sinc eI read the book, so I must have forgotten that. I'd sort-of assumed
> it used only purely electronic (as opposed to optoelectornic) parts

   Yup.  Those Vactrol analog optoisolators sure are neat.

>>> YEs, a great book. Along with Bob Pease's book ('Analog circuit
>>> troubleshooting' or soemthign like that). Well worth reading.
>>
>>     I shall have to obtain a copy of this book.
>
> I will try to dgi out my copy and post the exact title, ISBN, etc if you
> like. I maye have misrememebered the title above, but _anything_ by Bob
> Pease is IMHO worth reading (ditto Jim Williams) [1], and if you find a
> book with those sorts of words in the title, it's probably the one.

   Don't bother; I've already found it.  It's "Troubleshooting Analog 
Circuits", ISBN 0750694998.

> [1] I don't necessarily agree with everythign they write, but it's all
> worth reading. To be abvle to disagree with it you have to understand it,
> and you'll learn a lot by so doing...

   That's good thinking.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 16 17:21:46 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 18:21:46 -0500
Subject: D/As,
 Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1Rbg6G-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rbg6G-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEBD28A.2030909@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 05:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> I had previously met Sir Denys Wilkinson and he had mentioned something t=
>> o me about his pioneering days in nuclear instrumentation (including pinb=
>> all machine multichannel analyzers). When he had told me that he had inve=
>> nted the D/A converter I didn't really believe him but kinda nodded along=
>
> Depends on what you mean by D-A i guess...
>
> In one of my old books on electric lighting they suggest lighting a large
> room by 15 light bulbs in a 3*5 array o nthe ceiling and controllign them
> by 4 switches, thus giving 15 levels of illumination (I guess 'all off'
> is not illumination :-)). THye even give the best way to arrange the
> light bubls controleld by each switch, so as to get fairly evnn
> illumination in all cases. I consdier that ot be a D-A.

   With the combination of the room and your eyeballs acting as a 
(spatial) low-pass filter? ;)

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 16 18:20:21 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 16:20:21 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbgDR-000J4BC@p850ug1>
References: <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 15, 11 04:22:53 pm, <m1RbgDR-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEB6FC5.21904.17F3E4A@cclist.sydex.com>

On 16 Dec 2011 at 22:25, Tony Duell wrote:

> Yes, OK, it may be obsolete _for broadcasting_, but there must sitll
> be stuff around that uses iy. This is classiccmp after all, I am sure
> there are similar people who messaround with old TV and video
> equipment (I know for a fact there are people ove rhere to run 405
> line System A sets, for all there have been no system A broadcasts for
> 30 years or so).

I don't imagine that it will be too many decades before 
*broadcasting*  in the sense of off-the-air local radio/TV 
transmissions will be obsolete, at least in the US.

The economic model has changed so that networks tend to put more 
capital into cable/satellite TV because they realize a dual stream of 
revenue--by advertising and also by cable license fees.  The result 
is that the normal commercial networks (NBC, ABC, CBS, FOX) are 
broadcasting what is largely garbage.    (A look at OTA broadcast 
programs will be more than adequate to illustrate that).

Although DTV is generally better color-wise, compression artifacts 
really ruin things.   OTA reception during windy or rainy periods 
reall suffers.

It's strange, but from here it looks as if broadcast radio will 
outlast broadcast TV.  And my opinion of OTA radio here in the US is 
even worse than that of OTA TV.

--Chuck







From chris at mainecoon.com  Fri Dec 16 18:26:50 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 16:26:50 -0800
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB6FC5.21904.17F3E4A@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 15, 11 04:22:53 pm,
 <m1RbgDR-000J4BC@p850ug1> <4EEB6FC5.21904.17F3E4A@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <B1B59EDB-B359-482A-8B68-56E3B6865FF0@mainecoon.com>


On 16 Dec 2011, at 4:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

[snip]

> 
> It's strange, but from here it looks as if broadcast radio will 
> outlast broadcast TV.

I suspect you're right about that.

>  And my opinion of OTA radio here in the US is 
> even worse than that of OTA TV.

Amen to that, brother.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."





From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:24:29 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:24:29 -0500
Subject: obscure but useful bash-isms - Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames
 - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEBBD75.7030101@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E9F22@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <4EEBBD75.7030101@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBEF4D.7080807@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 4:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I wrote:
>  > ersonally I use a shell for loop with mv and basename, like:
>  > for f in *.foo; do mv $f `basename $f .foo`.bar; done
>  > That won't work when you want to change something other
>  > than the suffix of a file,
>
> Rich Alderson wrote:
>  > For this kind of thing, I revert to tcsh ...
>
> Bash does have pattern matching in variable expansion. Changing the
> suffix can be done by:
>
> for f in *.foo; do mv $f ${f/%.foo/.bar}; done
>
> Which is arguably simpler than my earlier example ...
>
> I also sometimes have to rename files from mixed case or all caps to all
> lower case, and bash has an expansion feature useful for that, too:
>
> for f in *; do mv $f ${f,,}; done
>
> ',,' means convert all characters to lower case. '^^' would convert to
> all upper case.

Thanks! I've read/skimmed the bash manual many times but somehow these 
never took root in my brain.

--Toby

>
> There's obviously a lot more that bash can do than what I've described.
> For the fancier stuff I always wind up RingTFM.
>
> Eric
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:26:33 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:26:33 -0500
Subject: Toaster analogy (Was: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <4EEB2AD5.15550.71F305@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAMTenCFukbbOgVcBgdcSJr+ujazBb3kMrWKjoxBRG+6Whq=FqQ@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111216095828.P18703@shell.lmi.net> <4EEB2AD5.15550.71F305@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBEFC9.5090709@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 2:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> My current toaster, a 2-slice Hamilton-Beach in white enamel, cost $5
> new--I recently saw it for $7.  I'll pop the bottom and dump the
> crumbs, but not much more than that, given the price.
>
> And that's me, who hates throwing anything away.  But there are
> limits.
>
> Make computers/mobile phones/tablets cheap enough and there's no
> reason to repair them, assuming that you could (which is not a given
> today).

We are already decades past the point of no repair.

--Toby

>
> --Chuck
>
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:28:10 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:28:10 -0500
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <E1RbdLh-0006X4-Hf@shell.xmission.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <E1RbdLh-0006X4-Hf@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EEBF02A.3090102@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 2:21 PM, Richard wrote:
> On 12/15/2011 5:21 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
>>    $ ls | perl -n -e 'chomp; m/(.*)\.log$/&&  rename($_, "$1.old");'
>>
>> Use 'find' to do it recursively, of course (try doing *that* in DOS).
>
> for %f in (*) do ren %f %f.old
>
> Seriously, this isn't difficult in DOS.

I suspected someone would come up with a neat answer, thanks.

I like the way this thread is winkling out arcana of all kinds.

--T


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:40:06 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:40:06 -0500
Subject: rm * .o - Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file
 extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EEBF2F6.2060009@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 12:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> ... Remember that the next time you type "rm * .o"
> instead of "rm *.o" by mistake. :)
>
> (Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)

Well, I'm probably not a 'guru', but I've certainly made THAT particular 
typo once that I recall. :)

--Toby

>
> - Josh
>
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:43:10 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:43:10 -0500
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EEBF3AE.30804@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 12:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> I have THE definitive solution for the original poster:
>
> WRITE A NEW SHELL.  It would be the easiest way to get DOS-like filename
> handling capabilities with Unix.
>


No, no. It's something Unix *cannot do*. You have to change the 
operating system.

--T


From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net  Fri Dec 16 19:45:11 2011
From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:45:11 -0500
Subject: Classic Picture
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>

I was looking on ebay at pictures of Balltimore.  Lo and behold I saw 
something the Classic Computer folks would appreciate.

See ebay item 260916992297

It is a picture of an actor, but who cares, it's the background that 
caught my eye.



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:50:16 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:50:16 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 11:43 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>
>>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
>>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
>>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
>>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
>>> absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>>
>> I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple for
>> removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
>> concern).
>>
>> The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate this
>> consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
>> set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain files to
>> automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a time
>> OS X gave you the choice.
>>
>> --
>> ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>>    Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
>> -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell ---------------------------
>
> OS X is not Unix in this case and Unix never ever decided what to do with a
> file by its extension but t does by its magic number (look for /etc/magic).

Unix traditionally *doesn't* do that either.

Automatic file associations are a post-GUI idea, in general, to my 
recollection. Traditionally in Unix you can apply any program to any 
file. It may or may not sniff! It may or may not crash. etc. :)

It is pretty hard on the traditional Unix command line to say: "open 
this file with whatever program can deal with it". [OS X has such a 
command; I think GNOME does; but again: post-GUI.]

(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're suggesting.)


>
> BTW:
> touch what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
> $ ls -l what*
> -rw-r--r--  1 holm  holm  0 16 Dez 17:40 what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
> $ rm what*
> $

I'm not sure what this is meant to illustrate?

--Toby

>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 16 19:52:50 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:52:50 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au>

On 16/12/11 11:54 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> ben wrote:
>
>> On 12/15/2011 9:05 AM, TeoZ wrote:
>>
>>> The problem is engineering tools got better and better so the fudge
>>> factor needed to make sure the part lasted as long as it was designed
>>> for got lower and lower. Metal use dropped as plastics got stronger, so
>>> parts get brittle with age instead of lasting forever. Things like this
>>> are done to make parts cheaper to compete better (basically to squeeze
>>> more profit out of something), so we have items designed to fail after
>>> the warranty expires. The cheaper something is sold for the shorter the
>>> warranty needed so by design things become cheaper and disposable.
>>>
>>
>> Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
>> electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
>> few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.

Not really true. There is apparently little attention to thermal design 
or component quality. Ergo: Built-in obsolescence. If we ask "who 
benefits?" we get a useful answer, too.

>> Ben.
>>
>
> So we all now have no problems with that, or what?

I have a big problem with it!!!

>
> We are all buying things day for day that while not lasting long gonig to
> the waste disposal. We are wasting the resources of our children...

Absolutely. But who THINKS about this?

--T


>
> Regards,
>
> Holm



From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Dec 16 19:58:01 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 17:58:01 -0800
Subject: rm * .o - Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles
 file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEBF2F6.2060009@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEBF2F6.2060009@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EEBF729.5010007@jwsss.com>

I have taken to a new habit (as in for the last few years) of doing the 
following when I actually remove things with wild card:

mv <toberemoved> <some random string name>
rm -rf (or whatever> random string from above.

this solves two things I don't want to have happen under my fingers, due 
to bash recalling things.  I don't ever routinely type rm * in any form, 
which my fingers may do on their own if I were to use that routinely.

I also don't have any rm * strings backup in my shell history to jump in 
and surprise me later.

This has saved me a few times, or potentially saved me from the history 
standpoint, so I guess it is worth it.

I also like the mv command because anything that doesn't move gracefully 
probably will have issues being rm'ed and finding the problem before the 
directory vanishes, or is partly destroyed is good as well.

I have watched rm * and so forth being typed while observing others, and 
recall a few huge "oopses" as far back as early interactive unix days 
for me.

Multics had this issue as well as its syntax would allow recursive 
deletion and had the same problems (which is where I came from before Unix).

TSO didn't have this as I recall since it didn't have much of a file 
system.  It was also another interactive system I had early experience 
on but was more akin to CP/M as far as files than *ix type systems.

Jim

On 12/16/2011 5:40 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
> On 16/12/11 12:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> ... Remember that the next time you type "rm * .o"
>> instead of "rm *.o" by mistake. :)
>>
>> (Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)
>
> Well, I'm probably not a 'guru', but I've certainly made THAT 
> particular typo once that I recall. :)
>
> --Toby
>
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>>
>>
>
>


From jfoust at threedee.com  Fri Dec 16 20:10:39 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:10:39 -0600
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file
 extensions "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
 Books free - Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>

At 07:50 PM 12/16/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're suggesting.)

Most of the magic and usefulness of 'file' is due to the fact that many 
commonly used files were in standard formats and did contain fixed magic 
identifying bytes in their headers.  It's metadata inside the file.
Extensions put the metadata in the filename, and look at all the tools
that assume filename extensions are standard (.sh, .c, .h, .m, .o).

- John



From phil+ccmp at ultimate.com  Fri Dec 16 20:19:35 2011
From: phil+ccmp at ultimate.com (phil+ccmp at ultimate.com)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 21:19:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: H200 series ID?
Message-ID: <201112170219.pBH2JZI6051674@ultimate.com>

I looked at the wikipedia entry for the Honeywell H200 series today,
and when I came to the "Pupular Culture" section I remembered that
when I was in High School (and our Computer Club got to use my school
district's H1200 stand alone one night every week) Lily Tomlin did a
"We don't care, we don't have to, we're the phone company" bit that I
could swear included an H200 series system.

I found the video at:
http://vimeo.com/16175616
http://www.movieweb.com/tv/TEbXhcfhdjEkec/HUOVvPTWha0QSW

It still looks like a Honeywell to me.  Can any one make a solid
identifcation of what model?

http://snltranscripts.jt.org/76/76aphonecompany.phtml
says the skit aired 9/18/76.

H200's were over ten years old at the time..
That's 5 computer generations these days!

The wikipedia page has some H200 photos:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honeywell_200

And more at:
http://www.feb-patrimoine.com/PROJET/honeywell200/h-200.htm

http://starringthecomputer.com/computer.php?c=48 says H200's appeared
in several movies, including the original Casino Royale!  There's a
good still of the programmer's panel from the "Billion Dollar Brain".

I still remember the boot sequence:
4 4 BOOTSTRAP RUN


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Fri Dec 16 21:22:02 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 19:22:02 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/16/2011 10:55 AM, Mouse wrote:
>> I -will- add that due to Unix's shell design (namely the decision
>> that the shell expands wildcards on behalf of the tools it executes)
>> that it does make it impossible (at least in a consistent manner) to
>> enable some operations that I think *would* be useful in the general
>> case.
>> For a basic example, if "rm" could know it was passed "*" as an
>> argument it could [] protect the user [...]
> I think it's no coincidence that most Lisp systems provide a way to
> write not only functions that eval their arguments, but `functions'
> that get passed their arguments unevaled.
>
> Some of the reasons for this have no analog here.  But some are fairly
> closely analogous.
>
> If we could invent some way for a program to indicate, pre-exec, that
> it wants unglobbed (`unevaled') arguments, this might be doable.
>
> Or, perhaps, programs always get globbed arguments, but there's some
> way for them to obtain the arglist in its pre-globbing form.
> main(argc,argv,envp,preglobargv)?
>
>> (I know, I know -- Unix being friendly, what am I thinking, restrain
>> yourselves.)
> I know, I know...but there's some truth here.  Two different truths, in
> fact.  One truth is that there is strong pressure against "friendly" in
> Unix.  The other is that, as consistent and predictable as the Unix
> mechanisms are, and as valuable as that consistency is, they do have
> downsides.
>
> I think there are major parts of the pressure against "friendly" -
> which, as it is usually used, really means "novice-friendly".
>
> One is that novice-friendly correlates remarkably well with
> expert-hostile.  This is somewhat inevitable, since part of being
> novice-friendly is preventing self-foot-shooting - but expert-friendly
> means not preventing stupid things because that also prevents clever
> things.  Not surprisingly, the experts who would have to implement
> novice-friendliness are rather, um, hostile, to expert-hostile things.
>
> The other is that novice-friendly also means logically inconsistent
> special cases.  I'm not sure why this is; I speculate that it's because
> humans are not logical creatures, so working the way a human, at least
> a na?ve human, expects involves accurately matching a bunch of messy
> heuristics.  This means that it's difficult to do at all, _extremely_
> difficult to get right, and possibly even completely impossible to get
> right for more than one person at a time.
>
> This is why I'm not looking for a way to "fix" rm.  I'm looking for a
> generalized facility that can be used to "fix" rm as a special case.
> It is much more in keeping with the Unix philosophy to introduce a new
> pattern than to introduce a special case.

I'm not sure I agree with your two points here.  Specifically, I don't 
agree that making a commandline user friendly necessarily makes it 
"expert-hostile" as you put it, or makes it impossible for said 
commandline to be consistent.   I'm not saying it's *easy* to make a 
tool satisfy both worlds, but I know it's possible -- it just takes 
careful design.

Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular invokation 
of rm that isn't commonly used -- it's an exceptional case that someone 
really wants to delete all files in a particular directory.  Is it 
annoying to anyone to either answer "y" to an "Are you sure?" prompt or 
type in "rm -y *" to autoconfirm in these few cases?  Even if it is 
slightly more work, think of the tradeoff that's being made: you're 
saving every Unix user the pain of accidentally screwing themselves via 
a typo -- and just as evidenced by responses on this list, *everyone* 
(well, mostly everyone) has managed to do this at least once or knows 
someone who has.

That's one example of the kind of thing I mean when I talk about being 
more friendly -- not hand-holding, but preventing screw cases.

Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a fair 
amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener has a few 
wonderful features which manage to be both powerful *and* helpful at the 
same time.  (It also has a few warts, but I believe the ideas present in 
it are something worthy of being brought back).

First of all, commands are verbose and self-descriptive -- for example, 
the command to copy a file is:

:Copy File

That's a lot of typing (especially for more lengthy commands like "Show 
Machine Configuration".  Fortunately this has been dealt with by only 
requiring the user to type as much of a command needed to disambiguate 
it -- "S Mac" works for the latter case, "Cop F" is enough for the former.

Once you've finished typing "Copy File" the listener immediately appends 
some simple context-sensitive information hinting at the arguments, so 
you end up the below on your screen:

:Copy File (pathnames of files) _

What if you've forgotten the name of the file you want to copy?  Hit 
Ctrl-/ and it'll give you a list of files in the most recently accessed 
directory, or will show files that start with a path you've partially 
completed.  You can then either type one in from the list and hit the 
"Complete" key or click on one of the filenames listed.  (The 
commandline is mouse-sensitive as well.)

At this point the command prompt helps you again with the second 
argument (hinting that you need to type in the "to" portion of the 
copy), and you have:

:Copy file (pathnames of files) FOO:>bar>baz.lisp;4 (to [default <most 
recently used path>]) _

And you type in the destination, and again are prompted:

:Copy file (pathnames of files) FOO:>bar>baz.lisp;4 (to [default <most 
recently used path>]) FOO:>bar>quux.lisp (keywords) _

It's now hinting that "Copy File" takes optional keywords.  If you don't 
need them, hit "Return" to execute the command, otherwise you can hit 
"Ctrl-/" (consistency!) to see a list of possible keyword arguments and 
a brief documentation string for each, as seen (excerpted) below:

These are the possible keyword arguments:
:Byte Size              Byte size in which to do copy operation
:Copy Properties        Properties of the file to be duplicated
:Create Directories     What to do if a destination directory does not exist
:If Exists              What to do if asked to copy to an existing file
.
.
.
:Copy file (pathnames of files) FOO:>bar>baz.lisp;4 (to [default <most 
recently used path>]) FOO:>bar>quux.lisp (keywords) _

Like the commands themselves, only what's needed to disambiguate the 
arguments from each other needs to be typed.  And like the commands, 
"Ctrl-/" will show all possible values for the argument, again, with 
short documentation.

And I'll stress that the above does not get in your way, it's fast and 
unobtrusive (once you get used to the idea of the commandline inserting 
text for you) and it means that you rarely need to consult the *actual* 
online documentation (which is excellent, btw :)).  For commonly used 
commands you can speed right through them using just a few characters 
(cop f foo:>bar>baz.lisp;4 foo:>bar>quux.lisp :b s 8 :co p :au) and for 
commands you haven't used in months, the commandline itself helps you 
remember how to use them.

And of course, this being a Lisp machine, if the above commands are just 
too easy for you, you can always directly invoke Lisp forms from the 
same commandline :).

(And in the "rm *" case here -- Genera has both a versioned filesystem 
(so you can recover clobbered files) and a system wherein deleted files 
are merely marked as deleted -- they are not actually cleaned up until 
either someone manually "expunges" them or the auto-expunge time for the 
directory expires.  So you have to try -really- hard to accidentally 
delete a file :).  )

Really, if you have the means I really recommend playing with Genera, 
even if you aren't a Lisp guy.  It was eye-opening for me.  (Open Genera 
is out there if you look, and Brad Parker wrote a usable Linux version a 
few years back for running it on amd64 systems (or you can run it on an 
Alpha box on TRU64...))


One other example of power + user friendliness is from Windows 
PowerShell (which again is far from perfect but contains some 
interesting ideas).  All commands (called "cmdlets") that affect system 
state (deleting files, reconfiguring network adapters, restarting 
services, etc) take a "-whatif" parameter which effectively does a dry 
run of the command, telling you what the command *would* do if it were 
to run without actually doing it.

This is useful when writing scripts -- for example imagine you wanted to 
write a script that would rename a subset of files (sounds familiar...) 
but wanted to make sure you got it right before running it on an actual 
set of files.

This is a feature which helps out both novices and experts without 
getting in the way of either.


>
>> I realize this goes against another, unwritten, Unix philosophy:
>> "Unix makes it easy to screw yourself to the wall, and that's a good
>> thing because I'm l33t."
> That's not the Unix philosophy.  That's a the philosophy of a wannabe
> who doesn't yet understand.  The Unix philsophy leading to many of the
> same observed effects as that one is actually "don't prevent stupid
> things because doing so also prevents clever things".  To the extent
> that stupid things can be prevented without also preventing clever
> things, it's often done, and rarely objected to.

Never said it was "the" Unix philosophy, just one I've picked up on over 
the years.  It's really more of an attitude than anything else.  I've 
literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting your files 
is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to which I disagree 
with this idea :).

>
>> Remember that the next time you type "rm * .o" instead of "rm *.o" by
>> mistake. :)
> I don't think I've ever done that.  I _have_ done "rm *>o" (actually,
> I'm not sure I've done it with rm; I've certainly done the same thing,
> mutatis mutandis of course, with other commands).

Exactly :).

- Josh



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 16 22:31:11 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:31:11 -0800
Subject: Toaster analogy (Was: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac
 Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books
In-Reply-To: <4EEBEFC9.5090709@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCHOadfFWMKPAGzX7sQWfY3MXqw_TD3uYC_JM0PsW4aFvg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EEB2AD5.15550.71F305@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EEBEFC9.5090709@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <4EEBAA8F.18592.264E379@cclist.sydex.com>

On 16 Dec 2011 at 20:26, Toby Thain wrote:

> We are already decades past the point of no repair.
> 
> --Toby

Not quite yet, but close.  I recently repaired an automatic coffee 
maker--the main PCB had a bunch of cold-solder joints.  Apparently, 
the Chinese still have a few things to learn about lead-free solder.

But on high-tech gear, yes, you're right--attempting to repair most 
failures in them is frustrating and a waste of time.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 16 22:55:50 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 20:55:50 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <m1Rbg2C-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rbg2C-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111216205124.L18703@shell.lmi.net>

> > I did poke wires into the cassette 5 pin DIN
On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
> You mean you didn't buy the ofifical cable (the one that IBM wanted you
> to buy for hte 5150)? I must have a fair number of those around.

Couldn't get it separately until months later.

Around here, IBM didn't sell that cable!

26-1401?    (Or was that my highschool gym locker?)


From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Fri Dec 16 23:08:59 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:08:59 -0600
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1Rbg6G-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rbg6G-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEC23EB.5090806@tx.rr.com>

On 12/16/2011 4:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> I had previously met Sir Denys Wilkinson and he had mentioned something t=
>> o me about his pioneering days in nuclear instrumentation (including pinb=
>> all machine multichannel analyzers). When he had told me that he had inve=
>> nted the D/A converter I didn't really believe him but kinda nodded along=
>
> Depends on what you mean by D-A i guess...
>
> In one of my old books on electric lighting they suggest lighting a large
> room by 15 light bulbs in a 3*5 array o nthe ceiling and controllign them
> by 4 switches, thus giving 15 levels of illumination (I guess 'all off'
> is not illumination :-)). THye even give the best way to arrange the
> light bubls controleld by each switch, so as to get fairly evnn
> illumination in all cases. I consdier that ot be a D-A.
>
> -tony
>

That's very cool!  I can't help imagining the switches sitting side by 
side on the wall with 8, 4, 2, and 1 labels above them.  (Set the 
lighting to level 11, please.  That's rather bright, could we try level 
9?  Thanks very much... that's perfect.)  Of course 2^3, 2^2, 2^1, and 
2^0 labeling would be more devious and a lot more fun. ;-)
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!

Freedom is in dire danger any time the US congress is in session...
Want to fix the post office? How about a "do not mail" list!



From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Fri Dec 16 23:19:39 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 23:19:39 -0600
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111216205124.L18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <m1Rbg2C-000J48C@p850ug1> <20111216205124.L18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EEC266B.2060306@tx.rr.com>

On 12/16/2011 10:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> I did poke wires into the cassette 5 pin DIN
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
>> You mean you didn't buy the ofifical cable (the one that IBM wanted you
>> to buy for hte 5150)? I must have a fair number of those around.
>
> Couldn't get it separately until months later.
>
> Around here, IBM didn't sell that cable!
>
> 26-1401?    (Or was that my highschool gym locker?)
>
Or a printing keypunch interfaced to a discrete germanium transistor 
CPU? ;-)
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!

Freedom is in dire danger any time the US congress is in session...
Want to fix the post office? How about a "do not mail" list!



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec 16 23:40:19 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 00:40:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1RbgAy-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <m1RbgAy-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112170540.AAA16517@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not
>>> linear.
>> Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in
>> the FET-based version.  [...]
> Any amplifierr with AGC, n matter how it's designed, is non-linear.

Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in the
FET-based version.

>> I should check model numbers; I might even have a 200A.
> That would be fun.

It would.

I'll probably be able to check sometime early next week; that's the
next time I expect to be within easy reach of those things.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 00:09:36 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 01:09:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I think there are major parts of the pressure against "friendly" -
>> which, as it is usually used, really means "novice-friendly".

>> One is that novice-friendly correlates remarkably well with
>> expert-hostile.  [...]

>> The other is that novice-friendly also means logically inconsistent
>> special cases.

> I'm not sure I agree with your two points here.  Specifically, I
> don't agree that making a commandline user friendly necessarily makes
> it "expert-hostile" as you put it,

No, it doesn't necessarily make it so.  But they do correlate
remarkably well, at least in my experience.

> or makes it impossible for said commandline to be consistent.

Hm, yes, I overstated the case.  "The other is that novice-friendly
usually means logically inconsistent special cases."

> Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular
> invokation of rm that isn't commonly used -- [...]

The problem is not what the interface looks like, or should look like.
The problem is implementing it.  As it stands, the only entity that can
tell whether I typed "rm *" instead of "rm Makefile a.c a.o b.c b.o
etc" (or whatever) is the shell, so this requires a very ugly special
case in the shell.

That's why I was trying to design a general mechanism that supports the
desired effect without resorting to a special case - in this case,
knowing that the command spelled "rm" should have magic treatment for a
* on its command line (worse, it only sometimes should, if it supports
your -y suggestion).  Something like my idea would permit moving the
code into rm, which is where it belongs; that way, the test is kept
with the program, so it's performed only when it should be.

> Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a
> fair amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener has
> a few wonderful features [...]

Perhaps _you_ like them.  I remember when they came in and I really
wished I could turn them off entirely.  If I'm typing to a lisp
listener, I want everything I type to be taken as Lisp code, never
(mis)interpreted as some kind of funky non-Lispy CLI.

But there's little reason to do a point-by-point reply to your example;
it's all a question of who finds what intrusive, helpful, whatever.

> Really, if you have the means I really recommend playing with Genera,

Indeed.  Even if you never use it for anything else, even if you find
it stunningly inconvenient, it is valuable as one of the very few
examples of a (live today) system that is severely non-POSIX.  It also
gives some ideas for alternatives to things that people used to
traditional systems never even question, like, "do we need
filesystems?".

And getting your head around Lisp, whether on a Lisp Machine or not, is
something I can't see as bad in any case.

> I've literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting
> your files is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to
> which I disagree with this idea :).

I think there is a little truth lurking in it, though.  While it
doesn't have to take the form of a bad experience with rm, I think that
learning that Unix is an extremely YAFIYGI system is very important,
even to the point where it might be fair to call it a rite of passage.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Dec 17 00:30:37 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:30:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEBF3AE.30804@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EEBF3AE.30804@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111216221119.Y18703@shell.lmi.net>

> > I have THE definitive solution for the original poster:
> > WRITE A NEW SHELL.  It would be the easiest way to get DOS-like filename
> > handling capabilities with Unix.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
> No, no. It's something Unix *cannot do*. You have to change the
> operating system.

No, no. It's something Unix *can do*.  What do YOU mean "have to
change the operating system"??  All of the file manipulation crap that you
are talking about, such as renaming and wildcards can be done by a program
running on Unix.  Parsing and DOING  "RENAME *.LOG *.OLD" is NOT a big
deal.

I could write a program, called COMMAND.COM that runs on Unix that YOU
could NOT tell me whether the machineWHILE AT THE COMMAND PROMPT was
running MS-DOS or Unix.

NB: I am saying that I COULD.  (and I am NOT a great programmer)
I am NOT saying that I SHOULD.
I am NOT saying that I WOULD.  (I would want to get PAID for such idiocy!)


Past the command line, It would absolutely NOT be worth the effort to
emulate the full system, such as memory mapped I/O.
But creating a Unix command line interface indistinguishable from MS-DOS
command line interface IS doable.

It would not be structured the way Unix shells are usually structured.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Dec 17 00:47:58 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 22:47:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEC266B.2060306@tx.rr.com>
References: <m1Rbg2C-000J48C@p850ug1> <20111216205124.L18703@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EEC266B.2060306@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <20111216223603.X18703@shell.lmi.net>

> > 26-1401?
[suspect remembrance of RS part number for cassette cable for TRS80 (also
IBM 5150]

On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Charlie Carothers wrote:
> Or a printing keypunch interfaced to a discrete germanium transistor
> CPU? ;-)

or an 026 interfaced to a IBM 1401 (or the 1401 emulator on a 1620)  :-)


40 years ago, at NASA GSFC NSSDC (Bldg 26), I spent some time toiling over
a Gerber data digitizer.  Line up the crosshairs using the big
etch-a-sketch knobs, stomp on the foot pedal, and the 026 would punch two
3 digit numbers.  I have NO idea what the interface actually consisted of.
At the other end of the room, and probably NOT connected to it, were a
7094 and a 360/30; in other buildings were several 360/9x





From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 02:03:33 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 00:03:33 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/16/2011 10:09 PM, Mouse wrote:
>
>> I'm not sure I agree with your two points here.  Specifically, I
>> don't agree that making a commandline user friendly necessarily makes
>> it "expert-hostile" as you put it,
> No, it doesn't necessarily make it so.  But they do correlate
> remarkably well, at least in my experience.
>
>> or makes it impossible for said commandline to be consistent.
> Hm, yes, I overstated the case.  "The other is that novice-friendly
> usually means logically inconsistent special cases."
>
>> Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular
>> invokation of rm that isn't commonly used -- [...]
> The problem is not what the interface looks like, or should look like.
> The problem is implementing it.  As it stands, the only entity that can
> tell whether I typed "rm *" instead of "rm Makefile a.c a.o b.c b.o
> etc" (or whatever) is the shell, so this requires a very ugly special
> case in the shell.
>
> That's why I was trying to design a general mechanism that supports the
> desired effect without resorting to a special case - in this case,
> knowing that the command spelled "rm" should have magic treatment for a
> * on its command line (worse, it only sometimes should, if it supports
> your -y suggestion).  Something like my idea would permit moving the
> code into rm, which is where it belongs; that way, the test is kept
> with the program, so it's performed only when it should be.

I never implied (or meant to imply) that this had to be special-cased by 
anything at all -- on the contrary, to do it right would require changes 
to Unix shell behavior, as you have suggested.


>
>> Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a
>> fair amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener has
>> a few wonderful features [...]
> Perhaps _you_ like them.  I remember when they came in and I really
> wished I could turn them off entirely.  If I'm typing to a lisp
> listener, I want everything I type to be taken as Lisp code, never
> (mis)interpreted as some kind of funky non-Lispy CLI.

Perhaps I haven't used it enough, but I've never ever had a problem with 
the Genera listener mis-interpreting a lisp form as a command or 
vice-versa... do you recall specific examples?


>
> But there's little reason to do a point-by-point reply to your example;
> it's all a question of who finds what intrusive, helpful, whatever.

I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be interactive 
and helpful, rather than simply passive.  (And I believe it can be done 
in a way that makes both experts and novices happy.)  Perhaps not in the 
way Genera does it, but my point is -there is room for improvement-.  
Today we have gazillions of cycles sitting idle, displays with millions 
of pixels and our primary interface to the CLI is not much more advanced 
than an ASR 33.  (At least we have lowercase characters.)  The CLI 
itself hasn't really evolved at all since Unix c. the 70s.

But there seems to be this mindset that what Unix has is perfect and 
cannot be improved upon.  I happen to think that it has some good ideas 
but there is room for improvement.  But being the realist I am, I doubt 
anything will change much, things are too ingrained in terms of 
backwards compatibility (both of software and of wetware.)  It would 
take a lot of work, but I think the most major effort would be to 
convince people that it's worthwhile.  I seem to be in the minority on 
this, I should just learn to accept it, I suppose :).


>
>> Really, if you have the means I really recommend playing with Genera,
> Indeed.  Even if you never use it for anything else, even if you find
> it stunningly inconvenient, it is valuable as one of the very few
> examples of a (live today) system that is severely non-POSIX.  It also
> gives some ideas for alternatives to things that people used to
> traditional systems never even question, like, "do we need
> filesystems?".

If you do find it "stunningly inconvenient" I'd like to hear from you 
:).  Honestly, i find Genera an amazing programming environment, and I'm 
still a novice with it.  Everything is extensible, everything is 
debuggable, everything is explorable.  Want to see how a program works?  
Just jump into the debugger, view the source.  Change a few things, 
recompile it on the fly, keep following "who-calls" lists until you find 
what you're looking for, etc.  (And yes, you can quite easily wedge the 
machine if you're not careful.  Any OS that lets you rewrite the process 
scheduler while it's running can't help but allow that to happen :)).  
And the thing that gets me the most about it is how *friendly* it is 
while at the same time being immensely powerful.  It's very inviting, it 
just feels comfortable.

I just wish more people could experience it.

(And I don't want to give anyone the idea that it's perfect -- it hasn't 
really been updated since the early 90s and there are many things that 
are rough around the edges.  There are concepts here, though, that seem 
to have been completely forgotten and not necessarily for good reasons.)

>
> And getting your head around Lisp, whether on a Lisp Machine or not, is
> something I can't see as bad in any case.

Definitely.

>
>> I've literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting
>> your files is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to
>> which I disagree with this idea :).
> I think there is a little truth lurking in it, though.  While it
> doesn't have to take the form of a bad experience with rm, I think that
> learning that Unix is an extremely YAFIYGI system is very important,
> even to the point where it might be fair to call it a rite of passage.

And a rite of passage you'll experience again, and again, and again... 
it's the gift that keeps on giving :).

- Josh


>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>


From pontus at update.uu.se  Sat Dec 17 02:40:04 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 09:40:04 +0100
Subject: Classic Picture
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EEC5564.8080202@update.uu.se>

On 12/17/2011 02:45 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> I was looking on ebay at pictures of Balltimore.  Lo and behold I saw 
> something the Classic Computer folks would appreciate.
>
> See ebay item 260916992297
>
> It is a picture of an actor, but who cares, it's the background that 
> caught my eye.
>

Neat. I guess those are PDP-11/34 ? It could be 8/a but i looks like he 
is standing in front of a set of RK drives.

/P


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 03:01:58 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 04:01:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a
>>> fair amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener
>>> has a few wonderful features [...]
>> Perhaps _you_ like them.  I remember when they came in and I really
>> wished I could turn them off entirely.  If I'm typing to a lisp
>> listener, I want everything I type to be taken as Lisp code, never
>> (mis)interpreted as some kind of funky non-Lispy CLI.
> Perhaps I haven't used it enough, but I've never ever had a problem
> with the Genera listener mis-interpreting a lisp form as a command or
> vice-versa... do you recall specific examples?

Well, take the example you gave: "copy file".  If I type "copy" to a
lisp listener, I want - expect - to have it taken as Lisp code, giving
me the current global value of the symbol copy, not have it taken for
some kind of CLI command.

> I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be interactive
> and helpful, rather than simply passive.

I'm inclined to agree.  Difficult to do under Unix, but that says more
about Unix than it does about what makes a good CLI.

> But there seems to be this mindset that what Unix has is perfect and
> cannot be improved upon.

Har!  The closest you'll find _me_ getting to that is "Unix is the
worst OS in the world except for all the others peopl ehave tried", and
even that is putting it way too strongly.  I much prefer VMS's
privilege model, for example, and, while I don't recall it being done
this way back when I worked on Lisp Machines, I really think
filesystems could be eliminated in favour of other ways of addressing
the needs filesystems satisfy.

> [...], I doubt anything will change much, things are too ingrained in
> terms of backwards compatibility (both of software and of wetware.)

Yes, I suspect it will take revolution, not evolution.

In recent years, I've come to the conclusion that POSIX, for all the
good it's done, is not an unmixed blessing; anything that can't be
twisted and bent into a POSIX framework sort of "can't be done".  For
example, in 2002 I worked with an experimental encrypted storage
paradigm that really fit the POSIX model very poorly, something I was
very aware of because what I was doing was building a glue layer to
make it mountable as a Unix filesystem.

> If you do find [Genera] "stunningly inconvenient" I'd like to hear
> from you :).

Heh.  I don't.  At least not as of the most recent version I used; I
expect it to have gotten worse (in my opinion, of course), but it's
highly unlikely to have got to the point of "stunningly inconvenient".

> Honestly, i find Genera an amazing programming environment,

Indeed.  Me too.

You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?
My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
impression the "Open" part is a misnomer, so I don't know whether
they're giving me an incorrect impression or whether someone mislabeled
a non-open product as open (presumably in an attempt to - fradulently,
I would tend to say, if so - ride the "Open" bandwagon).

If there really is an open Lisp Machine OS, I think I'd just _have_ to
build a Lisp Machine emulator....

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 03:12:56 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 04:12:56 -0500
Subject: Classic Picture
In-Reply-To: <4EEC5564.8080202@update.uu.se>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
 <4EEC5564.8080202@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CE103ADE-974F-43EE-A5B1-8895D7F17904@neurotica.com>

On Dec 17, 2011, at 3:40 AM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 12/17/2011 02:45 AM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
>> I was looking on ebay at pictures of Balltimore.  Lo and behold I saw something the Classic Computer folks would appreciate.
>> 
>> See ebay item 260916992297
>> 
>> It is a picture of an actor, but who cares, it's the background that caught my eye.
>> 
> 
> Neat. I guess those are PDP-11/34 ? It could be 8/a but i looks like he is standing in front of a set of RK drives.

  One can certainly put an RK8E in a PDP-8/a.  In betting they're 11/34s though.

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 03:48:29 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 01:48:29 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEC656D.6090001@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/17/2011 1:01 AM, Mouse wrote:
>>>> Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a
>>>> fair amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener
>>>> has a few wonderful features [...]
>>> Perhaps _you_ like them.  I remember when they came in and I really
>>> wished I could turn them off entirely.  If I'm typing to a lisp
>>> listener, I want everything I type to be taken as Lisp code, never
>>> (mis)interpreted as some kind of funky non-Lispy CLI.
>> Perhaps I haven't used it enough, but I've never ever had a problem
>> with the Genera listener mis-interpreting a lisp form as a command or
>> vice-versa... do you recall specific examples?
> Well, take the example you gave: "copy file".  If I type "copy" to a
> lisp listener, I want - expect - to have it taken as Lisp code, giving
> me the current global value of the symbol copy, not have it taken for
> some kind of CLI command.

Fair enough, though there is a way to tell the command prompt "no 
really, eval this as lisp" -- just put a comma before the symbol 
(",copy") and it'll treat it as a lisp symbol).  Not a huge hassle 
though I could see it getting annoying if you happen to have a lot of 
globals with the same name as Commands :).


>
>> I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be interactive
>> and helpful, rather than simply passive.
> I'm inclined to agree.  Difficult to do under Unix, but that says more
> about Unix than it does about what makes a good CLI.
>
>> But there seems to be this mindset that what Unix has is perfect and
>> cannot be improved upon.
> Har!  The closest you'll find _me_ getting to that is "Unix is the
> worst OS in the world except for all the others peopl ehave tried", and
> even that is putting it way too strongly.

:).  That's been my philosophy for awhile.

> I much prefer VMS's
> privilege model, for example, and, while I don't recall it being done
> this way back when I worked on Lisp Machines, I really think
> filesystems could be eliminated in favour of other ways of addressing
> the needs filesystems satisfy.

Yeah, the LispM has an interesting balance between filesystem and the 
Lisp state in the "world".  I suppose filesystems as we know them could 
be eliminated, but they'd have to be replaced by something to store, 
manage and protect user data... which would probably just evolve into a 
filesystem again :).

(
As a random aside, historically, LispMs had no native local filesystem 
at all.  The machines would read in the OS (a "lisp world") either over 
the network or possibly stored on a local disk and use other machines -- 
MIT had DECSystem 10s running ITS, for example, for file stores.  
(Genera 8.3 still talks the CHAOS protocol and knows how to deal with 
ITS pathnames in the namespace.  Anyone have a DECSystem they're looking 
to get rid of? :))

Genera 8.3 can still run without a local filesystem (in fact, the 
Symbolics UX Lisp machines which are VME cards hosted in a Sun-3 machine 
generally have their files stored on the host Sun, mounted over NFS.).  
I don't know when the LMFS (Lisp Machine File System, go figure) was 
introduced but it's fairly full featured and robust with ACLs, support 
for arbitrary file metadata, versioning and the ability to extend the 
filesystem dynamically.
)


>
>> [...], I doubt anything will change much, things are too ingrained in
>> terms of backwards compatibility (both of software and of wetware.)
> Yes, I suspect it will take revolution, not evolution.
>
> In recent years, I've come to the conclusion that POSIX, for all the
> good it's done, is not an unmixed blessing; anything that can't be
> twisted and bent into a POSIX framework sort of "can't be done".  For
> example, in 2002 I worked with an experimental encrypted storage
> paradigm that really fit the POSIX model very poorly, something I was
> very aware of because what I was doing was building a glue layer to
> make it mountable as a Unix filesystem.
>
>> If you do find [Genera] "stunningly inconvenient" I'd like to hear
>> from you :).
> Heh.  I don't.  At least not as of the most recent version I used; I
> expect it to have gotten worse (in my opinion, of course), but it's
> highly unlikely to have got to the point of "stunningly inconvenient".
>
>> Honestly, i find Genera an amazing programming environment,
> Indeed.  Me too.
>
> You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?
> My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
> impression the "Open" part is a misnomer, so I don't know whether
> they're giving me an incorrect impression or whether someone mislabeled
> a non-open product as open (presumably in an attempt to - fradulently,
> I would tend to say, if so - ride the "Open" bandwagon).

No, it's not open source.  It's one of those odd/misleading/meaningless 
uses of "Open" from the 90s (like "Open VMS") which does not imply that 
the source is available for free.  (Though you do get a copy of most of 
the sources with Genera anyway, it's obviously not an open license.)

Open Genera is basically the last gasp of the LispM -- Symbolics, having 
reached a point where it couldn't survive in the hardware world, 
basically made a virtual lisp machine that ran on the Alpha.  (They 
basically implemented a software subset of the Ivory processor.)  It 
runs on Tru64 Unix.  I had it running on a PWS 533u for awhile, and it's 
very snappy.  Brad Parker (who may still be on this mailing list) took 
the original VLM code and modified it to emit C rather than Alpha 
assembly and made a rough port of it to amd64 Linux.  It works fairly 
well though it's not trivial to configure properly.

Hopefully, one day the source to Genera will be released to the world, 
but I'm not holding my breath that it'll happen soon...


>
> If there really is an open Lisp Machine OS, I think I'd just _have_ to
> build a Lisp Machine emulator....

Best of luck to you on that :).  I know of a few people who are working 
on emulations for the 'bolix machines (both the Ivory and the 36xx 
series) but there hasn't been progress in a long time.  They're very 
complicated machines :).  Brad Parker did a nice emulation of the MIT 
CADR, which is very fun to play with.

- Josh


>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>


From pontus at update.uu.se  Sat Dec 17 04:17:19 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:17:19 +0100
Subject: Classic Picture
In-Reply-To: <CE103ADE-974F-43EE-A5B1-8895D7F17904@neurotica.com>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
 <4EEC5564.8080202@update.uu.se>
 <CE103ADE-974F-43EE-A5B1-8895D7F17904@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EEC6C2F.6030206@update.uu.se>

On 12/17/2011 10:12 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
>> Neat. I guess those are PDP-11/34 ? It could be 8/a but i looks like he is standing in front of a set of RK drives.
>    One can certainly put an RK8E in a PDP-8/a.  In betting they're 11/34s though.
>
>             -Dave
>

Ah, a bit ambiguous of me, I should have said RK07 which is what I meant.

/P


From jtpinch-treiff at usa.net  Fri Dec 16 06:27:51 2011
From: jtpinch-treiff at usa.net (Tom Reiff)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 07:27:51 -0500
Subject: Microcode on Floppy for MV-2000dc Mod II
Message-ID: <A1BA5D00BCEB4BD49E9BCBD83CFD147E@p4>

Hello,
    We have a MV-2000 Mod II that we still use to manage our business. As time goes by, more and more of our tapes (DC-1000 21mb cartridges) are failing. I do have a copy of microcode (ver 10) from tape that has been saved to a hard drive as a disk image. As tapes fail, I've been able to make "new" copies, but I'm running out of tape cartridges. 
    Would anyone know where I could find microcode for our MV-2000 mod II on 5.25 floppies? Our MV has an internal 5.25 (720kb) diskette dive that could load microcode at boot time. I've already tried copying the tape image to floppy, but it appears not to be enough. I'm guessing DG organized microcode on floppy a little differently then on tape. Does anyone have any ideas?? Thanks for your time.

Tom
jtpinch-treiff at usa.net


From jjacocks at mac.com  Fri Dec 16 13:52:46 2011
From: jjacocks at mac.com (J. Alexander Jacocks)
Date: Fri, 16 Dec 2011 14:52:46 -0500
Subject: Solaris Sparc ZFS sun4u to sun4v migration
Message-ID: <CAF-r0Y1c19cyTd41Rk6ethcf1haOj4e-EVoryxiFQHeSeWgCag@mail.gmail.com>

Has anyone successfully migrated a ZFS-hosted Solaris 10 sparc host
from one arch (sun4u) to another (sun4v)?  I have found all kinds of
docs on how to do it, if your source is UFS-rooted, but nothing, if
you're ZFS-rooted.  This seems like a _huge_ oversight, to me, but I
lost my faith in Oracle, a long time ago.

I've tried:
1) root pool regeneration from "zfs send -r" snapshot backups
2) flar/jumpstart (add sun4v arch to flar, when creating)
3) liveupgrade
4) ldomp2v tool

None of these have been successful.  The closest that I have gotten
was by doing a ZFS root pool restore, on the new host, and then
manually installing the ".v" versions of all of the missing packages.
That got the system booting, but there were a _lot_ of broken
libraries.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
- Alex


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 05:38:44 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:38:44 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217113844.GB30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 01:09:36AM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> 
> > I've literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting
> > your files is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to
> > which I disagree with this idea :).
> 
> I think there is a little truth lurking in it, though.  While it
> doesn't have to take the form of a bad experience with rm, I think that
> learning that Unix is an extremely YAFIYGI system is very important,
> even to the point where it might be fair to call it a rite of passage.

ACK. Until you truly understand that Unix _is_ YAFIYGI, you will end up
getting in avoidable trouble. To quote from past discussions:

I'm perfectly willing to admit that Unix not only lets you shoot yourself
in the foot, it gives you an assortment of guns already loaded and pointed
in the proper direction.
     -- Michael Wojcik <michael.wojcik at merant.com> in alt.folklore.computer

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 05:33:58 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:33:58 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 07:22:02PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular
> invokation of rm that isn't commonly used -- it's an exceptional
> case that someone really wants to delete all files in a particular
> directory.  Is it annoying to anyone to either answer "y" to an "Are
> you sure?" prompt or type in "rm -y *" to autoconfirm in these few
> cases?

Bad idea, breaks the generic user interface assumption that the machine
just goes and does what it is being told instead of nagging you with
"are you really sure?" prompts in the default case.

Unix standard: the training wheels are off, the user is assumed to know WTF
he/she/it is doing. If you want the training wheels, switch them on
explicitly, but don't annoy the experts all the time. ;-)

In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already available, just
use "rm -i".

>  Even if it is slightly more work, think of the tradeoff
> that's being made: you're saving every Unix user the pain of
> accidentally screwing themselves via a typo -- and just as evidenced
> by responses on this list, *everyone* (well, mostly everyone) has
> managed to do this at least once or knows someone who has.

Live and learn. And pain is a very powerful mnemonic fixative ;-)

> Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a
> fair amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener
> has a few wonderful features which manage to be both powerful *and*
> helpful at the same time.  (It also has a few warts, but I believe
> the ideas present in it are something worthy of being brought back).
> 
> First of all, commands are verbose and self-descriptive -- for
> example, the command to copy a file is:
> 
> :Copy File
> 
> That's a lot of typing (especially for more lengthy commands like
> "Show Machine Configuration".  Fortunately this has been dealt with
> by only requiring the user to type as much of a command needed to
> disambiguate it -- "S Mac" works for the latter case, "Cop F" is
> enough for the former.

Whereas in Unix it is just "cp". Clearly superior. *tongue-firmly-in-cheek*

> Once you've finished typing "Copy File" the listener immediately
> appends some simple context-sensitive information hinting at the
> arguments, so you end up the below on your screen:
> 
> :Copy File (pathnames of files) _
> 
> What if you've forgotten the name of the file you want to copy?  Hit
> Ctrl-/ and it'll give you a list of files in the most recently
> accessed directory, or will show files that start with a path you've
> partially completed.  You can then either type one in from the list
> and hit the "Complete" key or click on one of the filenames listed.
> (The commandline is mouse-sensitive as well.)
> 
> At this point the command prompt helps you again with the second
> argument (hinting that you need to type in the "to" portion of the
> copy), and you have:
> 
> :Copy file (pathnames of files) FOO:>bar>baz.lisp;4 (to [default
> <most recently used path>]) _
> 
> And you type in the destination, and again are prompted:
> 
> :Copy file (pathnames of files) FOO:>bar>baz.lisp;4 (to [default
> <most recently used path>]) FOO:>bar>quux.lisp (keywords) _
> 
> It's now hinting that "Copy File" takes optional keywords.  If you
> don't need them, hit "Return" to execute the command, otherwise you
> can hit "Ctrl-/" (consistency!) to see a list of possible keyword
> arguments and a brief documentation string for each, as seen
> (excerpted) below:
> 
> These are the possible keyword arguments:
> :Byte Size              Byte size in which to do copy operation
> :Copy Properties        Properties of the file to be duplicated
> :Create Directories     What to do if a destination directory does not exist
> :If Exists              What to do if asked to copy to an existing file

Well, if you want that, just write a shell implementing that. It is probably
easiest for that to build on some existing implementation, like the scsh.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 05:43:50 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:43:50 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111217114350.GC30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 12:03:33AM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 12/16/2011 10:09 PM, Mouse wrote:
> >
> >>I'm not sure I agree with your two points here.  Specifically, I
> >>don't agree that making a commandline user friendly necessarily makes
> >>it "expert-hostile" as you put it,
> >No, it doesn't necessarily make it so.  But they do correlate
> >remarkably well, at least in my experience.
> >
> >>or makes it impossible for said commandline to be consistent.
> >Hm, yes, I overstated the case.  "The other is that novice-friendly
> >usually means logically inconsistent special cases."
> >
> >>Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular
> >>invokation of rm that isn't commonly used -- [...]
> >The problem is not what the interface looks like, or should look like.
> >The problem is implementing it.  As it stands, the only entity that can
> >tell whether I typed "rm *" instead of "rm Makefile a.c a.o b.c b.o
> >etc" (or whatever) is the shell, so this requires a very ugly special
> >case in the shell.
> >
> >That's why I was trying to design a general mechanism that supports the
> >desired effect without resorting to a special case - in this case,
> >knowing that the command spelled "rm" should have magic treatment for a
> >* on its command line (worse, it only sometimes should, if it supports
> >your -y suggestion).  Something like my idea would permit moving the
> >code into rm, which is where it belongs; that way, the test is kept
> >with the program, so it's performed only when it should be.
> 
> I never implied (or meant to imply) that this had to be
> special-cased by anything at all -- on the contrary, to do it right
> would require changes to Unix shell behavior, as you have suggested.
> 
> 
> >
> >>Another example, from Symbolics Genera (which I've been spending a
> >>fair amount of time with).  The Command line in the Lisp Listener has
> >>a few wonderful features [...]
> >Perhaps _you_ like them.  I remember when they came in and I really
> >wished I could turn them off entirely.  If I'm typing to a lisp
> >listener, I want everything I type to be taken as Lisp code, never
> >(mis)interpreted as some kind of funky non-Lispy CLI.
> 
> Perhaps I haven't used it enough, but I've never ever had a problem
> with the Genera listener mis-interpreting a lisp form as a command
> or vice-versa... do you recall specific examples?
> 
> 
> >
> >But there's little reason to do a point-by-point reply to your example;
> >it's all a question of who finds what intrusive, helpful, whatever.
> 
> I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be
> interactive and helpful, rather than simply passive.  (And I believe
> it can be done in a way that makes both experts and novices happy.)
> Perhaps not in the way Genera does it, but my point is -there is
> room for improvement-.  Today we have gazillions of cycles sitting
> idle, displays with millions of pixels and our primary interface to
> the CLI is not much more advanced than an ASR 33.  (At least we have
> lowercase characters.)  The CLI itself hasn't really evolved at all
> since Unix c. the 70s.

Because it simply works. Oh, there have been improvements since the early
days, like tab-completion (which is very handy) or programmable completion
(which tries to be smart and ends up being very annoying, so I quickly
get rid of it where it is installed by default).
 
> >>I've literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting
> >>your files is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to
> >>which I disagree with this idea :).
> >I think there is a little truth lurking in it, though.  While it
> >doesn't have to take the form of a bad experience with rm, I think that
> >learning that Unix is an extremely YAFIYGI system is very important,
> >even to the point where it might be fair to call it a rite of passage.
> 
> And a rite of passage you'll experience again, and again, and
> again... it's the gift that keeps on giving :).

Well, some people _are_ capably of learning from past mistakes. Not all
people, unfortunately, but some ;-)

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 05:49:42 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:49:42 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217114941.GD30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 04:01:58AM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> 
> > But there seems to be this mindset that what Unix has is perfect and
> > cannot be improved upon.
> 
> Har!  The closest you'll find _me_ getting to that is "Unix is the
> worst OS in the world except for all the others peopl ehave tried", and
> even that is putting it way too strongly.  I much prefer VMS's
> privilege model, for example, and, while I don't recall it being done
> this way back when I worked on Lisp Machines, I really think
> filesystems could be eliminated in favour of other ways of addressing
> the needs filesystems satisfy.

Did you look at the single level store as implemented in the AS/400?
 
> > [...], I doubt anything will change much, things are too ingrained in
> > terms of backwards compatibility (both of software and of wetware.)
> 
> Yes, I suspect it will take revolution, not evolution.
> 
> In recent years, I've come to the conclusion that POSIX, for all the
> good it's done, is not an unmixed blessing; anything that can't be
> twisted and bent into a POSIX framework sort of "can't be done".  For
> example, in 2002 I worked with an experimental encrypted storage
> paradigm that really fit the POSIX model very poorly, something I was
> very aware of because what I was doing was building a glue layer to
> make it mountable as a Unix filesystem.

Hmm, care to elaborate? Because so far I've seen two basic approached to
encrypted storage: block level (like dm-crypt) and file level (like encfs,
where you can use any sane filesystem, including NFS, as backing store).
 
> > If you do find [Genera] "stunningly inconvenient" I'd like to hear
> > from you :).
> 
> Heh.  I don't.  At least not as of the most recent version I used; I
> expect it to have gotten worse (in my opinion, of course), but it's
> highly unlikely to have got to the point of "stunningly inconvenient".
> 
> > Honestly, i find Genera an amazing programming environment,
> 
> Indeed.  Me too.
> 
> You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?
> My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
> impression the "Open" part is a misnomer, so I don't know whether
> they're giving me an incorrect impression or whether someone mislabeled
> a non-open product as open (presumably in an attempt to - fradulently,
> I would tend to say, if so - ride the "Open" bandwagon).

IIRC it is the old meaning of Open from commercial vendors: "Open" as
in "Open your wallet".

> If there really is an open Lisp Machine OS, I think I'd just _have_ to
> build a Lisp Machine emulator....

You are not the first, there are IIRC a few projects that aim to do that
and at least one of them got pretty far.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 06:50:55 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:50:55 +0000
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2011 09:01, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
>
> You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?

Er, no.

AFAICT - and I am not an expert at all - Genera ran on Lisp Machine
hardware and OpenGenera ran on top of Unix - specifically, on top of
DEC Tru64, but now this version can also be run on 64-bit Linux.

> My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
> impression the "Open" part is a misnomer,

Kinda, yes. It certainly doesn't mean what it normally tends to.

>  so I don't know whether
> they're giving me an incorrect impression or whether someone mislabeled
> a non-open product as open (presumably in an attempt to - fradulently,
> I would tend to say, if so - ride the "Open" bandwagon).
>
> If there really is an open Lisp Machine OS, I think I'd just _have_ to
> build a Lisp Machine emulator....

As close as it has got:
http://common-lisp.net/project/movitz/


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 07:00:26 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:00:26 +0000
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 December 2011 17:43, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> I have THE definitive solution for the original poster:
>
> WRITE A NEW SHELL. ?It would be the easiest way to get DOS-like filename
> handling capabilities with Unix.
>
> Let's call it "CP.M" ?(sorry, but '/' creates a few complications)

Ahahaha! :?)

> It needs to have built-in commands of
> TYPE
> ERASE
> REN
> DIR
> USER
> and you will also need to write a few programs to go with it, such as
> PIP.COM and DDT.COM

Steady on, old chap. Pop a few more dried frog pills and calm down.

Joking aside, I have considered it. I honestly think a decent
Win9x/NT-style DOS shell for Linux would help its adoption by Windows
techies moving across. The main snag being that C21 Windows techies
barely use the CLI at all and are not really skilled in it, whereas
1990s or even 1980s MS techies probably know Unix already.

I did start, in the early 1990s, a COMMAND-COM compatible shell for
Acorn RISC OS. Its native CLI is deeply odd, as it dates back to the
late '70s/early '80s and owes nothing to anything - it was all
original.

(Examples: directories are called Catalogues and are listed with CAT;
their names are separated in paths with dots, rooted at
filesystemname::devicenumber:$.; there are no native file extensions
but when needed they are simulated with slashes, so an MS-DOS file
called C:\DOS\COUNTRY.SYS would be something like
dosfs::4:$.DOS.COUNTRY/SYS (allowing for ::0 to ::3 being 4 floppy
drives). It was... weird.)

I only got as far as DIR, COPY, DEL and TREE and got distracted and moved on.

But I'd love a DOS shell for Linux, yes. If I had the skills, I'd try to do it.

Partly for the convenience, partly for fun, partly for the sheer joy
of outraging traditional old-time Unix-heads. :?)


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From dgahling at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 17 07:28:48 2011
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 08:28:48 -0500
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>,
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>,
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>,
 <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W27C7B0FAE0516C1297A6FBC9A10@phx.gbl>


Have you tried:

mtools
dosbox

or even (dare I suggest) - dosemu ?

and seriously this is like saying un*x is crap because it doesn't have the exact CLI for:

Vax/VMS, Cyber/Prime, Cray, Commodore C64, Amiga, Atari, Sentry/70 or any other ancient CLI we might have used.

or, even better, why can't windows have a full decent uni*x CLI? cygwin/etc is close but not close enough.

As you say, typical windows users never touch the CLI or even know it exists, M$ tried to kill the CLI with the "powershell"
and attempt to keep users away from it at all costs.

have you ever had a user spell "DIR" incorrectly?... (sadly, not a joke)
I've had users (recently!) who can't even enter a URL! (they didn't know what "www" was - yet somehow use the web every day)

point is, your average user isn't going to touch the CLI, they're too busy having the GUI tell them where to click
the rest will use the CLI that was designed for it, because that's its purpose

Dan.


> 
> Joking aside, I have considered it. I honestly think a decent
> Win9x/NT-style DOS shell for Linux would help its adoption by Windows
> techies moving across. The main snag being that C21 Windows techies
> barely use the CLI at all and are not really skilled in it, whereas
> 1990s or even 1980s MS techies probably know Unix already.
> 
> I did start, in the early 1990s, a COMMAND-COM compatible shell for
> Acorn RISC OS. Its native CLI is deeply odd, as it dates back to the
> late '70s/early '80s and owes nothing to anything - it was all
> original.
> 
> (Examples: directories are called Catalogues and are listed with CAT;
> their names are separated in paths with dots, rooted at
> filesystemname::devicenumber:$.; there are no native file extensions
> but when needed they are simulated with slashes, so an MS-DOS file
> called C:\DOS\COUNTRY.SYS would be something like
> dosfs::4:$.DOS.COUNTRY/SYS (allowing for ::0 to ::3 being 4 floppy
> drives). It was... weird.)
> 
> I only got as far as DIR, COPY, DEL and TREE and got distracted and moved on.
> 
> But I'd love a DOS shell for Linux, yes. If I had the skills, I'd try to do it.
> 
> Partly for the convenience, partly for fun, partly for the sheer joy
> of outraging traditional old-time Unix-heads. :?)
> 
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
> AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
> 
 		 	   		  

From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 07:34:52 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:34:52 +0000
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFRxwhbyOeqYArm+gXqbWWj+Cd-L3T=QgCULsFkr9h55g@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2011 2:15 AM, "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
>
> At 07:50 PM 12/16/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
> >(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're
suggesting.)
>
> Most of the magic and usefulness of 'file' is due to the fact that many
> commonly used files were in standard formats and did contain fixed magic
> identifying bytes in their headers.  It's metadata inside the file.
> Extensions put the metadata in the filename, and look at all the tools
> that assume filename extensions are standard (.sh, .c, .h, .m, .o).

Exactly my point. Well, one of them. UNIX /does/ have and use and even
depends upon file extensions, and yet, the shell does not really understand
them as a separate entity from the file's /name/... & it is poorer than the
admittedly far less powerful or capable Microsoft shell at manipulating
files /by extension/ a opposed to /by name/.

When I do "ren *.log *.log.old" I am manipulating a /collection/ of files
by their shared /extension/ and *not* by their name. No UNIX shell I am
aware of can do this. Sure, you can kludge around it with loops or scripts
or little Perl programs but that is more effort, more work and I would
argue less elegant.


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 08:16:05 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:16:05 +0000
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W27C7B0FAE0516C1297A6FBC9A10@phx.gbl>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W27C7B0FAE0516C1297A6FBC9A10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF9uBEGq417=j+feBdD1jvO84VKoR1gJHzQjoM=uzsumg@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2011 13:28, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> Have you tried:
>
> mtools
> dosbox
>
> or even (dare I suggest) - dosemu ?

Yes, of course. For manipulating DOS floppies, or for running DOS apps.

But they are, obviously, *not shells.* So, no, I do not use them for
attempting to manipulate Unix files.

Look, Unix/Linux has replaceable shells and comes with a choice of
them: bash, zsh, tcsh, csh, etc. etc. This is well-known.

What I am arguing for is another one, but one that uses a CLI that is
approximately syntax-compatible with that of the industry-leading OS,
the OS that runs on approximately 95% of the desktop, laptop and
server computers in the world and has done for 25y now.

I know that this CLI is less powerful and less flexible and less
capable than the Unix one. I am not arguing that.

What I am arguing is that the Unix one is hard work. It's complex, it
takes time to learn - and, I'd say, a certain mindset, too - and it's
also quite dangerous if you're not careful. It is, as all these "rm *.
o" examples illustrate, very easy to accidentally do things you didn't
mean to because it's so terse and the commands can do so much.

It can do many brilliant and wonderful things that I don't want to do. :?)

But it is often notably poor at /easily/ and /simply/ doing the stuff
I do on a daily or weekly basis, like, say, searching recursively
through users' home directories, finding, moving then later erasing
all the temporary files abandoned by MS Office because it's too crap
to clean up its own detritus after itself or even keep its temp files
in the designate temp-files directory.

If I can specify *.foo as the source of a command then I damned well
want to specify *.foo as the /destination/ of a command as well. I do
not /care/ about how the shell is implemented, I want it to work in a
simple and obvious fashion. If *.foo matches all files called
(something)(full stop)('foo') in one position in the command then it
is natural and obvious that it should /also/ match (something)(full
stop)('foo') in /any other position in the command as well/. It does
on almost every other CLI OS I have ever seen, from RSTS to VMS to
CP/M to DOS to Windows 7. /Pace/ different wildcard operators and
things it does on AmigaOS and Acorn RISC OS and so on as well.

On every Unix shell I've seen (i.e. since the late 1980s), it doesn't.
Because Unix doesn't work that way. It's special. It does things
differently.

Well, that's fine. I am not arguing for the removal of all other
shells except my notional DOS-like one. Good gods no.

I'm just saying that, for all its limitations, the DOS-type method
does actually have its uses and indeed its *benefits*. I honestly
think it's easier - easier to learn, easier to use.

And given that DOS-type systems run on 95% of x86 hardware, and that
most people in IT only use DOS-type x86 systems and know nothing else,
then there's a fairly strong case to be made that this way works and
is good enough.

Perhaps it's another instance of the "worse is better" argument.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better

> and seriously this is like saying un*x is crap

I'm not saying it's crap. I'm saying it's more difficult, yes.

>  because it doesn't have the exact CLI for:
>
> Vax/VMS, Cyber/Prime, Cray, Commodore C64, Amiga, Atari, Sentry/70 or any other ancient CLI we might have used.

Ah, but none of those sell roughly ten times more than all the Unixes
in the world ever put together, do they? None of those utterly
dominate commercial, charitable and governmental computing. None of
those are the de facto standard, so overwhelming that even the
surviving RISC UNIX boxes today use the buses and the interface
connectors and the video and networking standards, and the storage
media, and the disks and the RAM, *set by the x86 PC.*


> or, even better, why can't windows have a full decent uni*x CLI? cygwin/etc is close but not close enough.

Sure, if that's what you want, fine.

> As you say, typical windows users never touch the CLI or even know it exists, M$ tried to kill the CLI with the "powershell"
> and attempt to keep users away from it at all costs.

Users? Yes, in large part. Admins? No, actually, that is changing,
fast. Modern versions of MS server tools are graphical wrappers around
command lines, and when you perform an operation, they show you the
command line first so that you can learn to do it yourself.

The big new thing in Windows servers is the massive engineering effort
to separate out the kernel and the GUI, the server application layers
from the presentation layers. There are now CLI-only versions of
Windows Server (although they retain the windowing system, thus far),
and CLI-only versions of the big server apps, so that you can run them
on headless boxes hosted in VMs and manage them remotely.

Yes, it means MS is trying hard to catch up with where Unix has been
for decades, yes yes. We know.

But still, it's happening. Finally, MS is learning some stuff from the
way things are done on the older OSs, the ones in long trousers that
were established before Tim Paterson even wrote QDOS.

> have you ever had a user spell "DIR" incorrectly?... (sadly, not a joke)

Nope. But I've done it myself. :?)

> I've had users (recently!) who can't even enter a URL! (they didn't know what "www" was - yet somehow use the web every day)

Oh, yes, absolutely. But they're happy with their GUIs; leave them to
it. I'm talking about a tool to make life easy for the legions of
Windows techies out there to adapt to the proliferation of free
Unixes.

Well, a bit. That's just a thought experiment. Mostly I am trying to
justify my own preferences. :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 08:34:42 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:34:42 +0000
Subject: Looking for powerpc and decent graphics card for Apple Quadra 950
In-Reply-To: <4EEB4ACF.90200@gmail.com>
References: <1323964830.35037.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
 <4EEB4ACF.90200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHNjUSzP4TJCVkt38H0YJa7zGL_GgOmWKHZribN9+BHqg@mail.gmail.com>

On 16 December 2011 13:42, Joost van de Griek <gyorpb at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2011-12-15 17:00, silvercreekvalley wrote:
>
>> I'd also like to put in a PowerPC upgrade if I can find one. I used to
>> have
>> one of these years ago, and it used to work pretty well. The Quadra has
>> a PDS type slot.
>
> That slot will take a SCSI accellerator card, which will essentially
> transforn your 950 into a WGS95.
>
> Please don't disgrace this beautiful 68K machine with PPC upgrades. It is
> pretty much begging for an A/UX install.

What Joost said, pretty much!

That's one of the last and among the most powerful 68K Macs ever. Why
turn it into an underpowered, poorly-performing PowerPC machine?

It would be a lovely machine to run MacOS 8.1 on - and having that
dual-booting with A/UX would also be very cool indeed. With relatively
easy-to-find and inexpensive 4MB SIMMs, you could fit it with 64MB
RAM, which is plenty for OS8 and would get you up and running with
A/UX.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec 17 09:08:03 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:08:03 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
Message-ID: <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

TeoZ wrote:

> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:54 AM
> Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub 
> converter possible?
> 
> 
> >ben wrote:
> >
> >>Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
> >>electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
> >>few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
> >>Ben.
> >>
> >
> >So we all now have no problems with that, or what?
> >
> >We are all buying things day for day that while not lasting long gonig to
> >the waste disposal. We are wasting the resources of our children...
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Holm
> >-- 
> 
> Depending how fast (and how much) the junk is recycled it could keep strip 
> mining for new materials down. How much of that old stuff that lasted 
> forever just ended up in the dump to rot and leach poisons into the ground? 
> There will eventually be some kind of compromise for longer life and 
> cleaner 99% recycling.
> 

Did you men recycling in nigeria or something that actually happens?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From teoz at neo.rr.com  Sat Dec 17 09:11:13 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:11:13 -0500
Subject: Looking for powerpc and decent graphics card for Apple Quadra 950
References: <1323964830.35037.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
 <4EEB4ACF.90200@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCHNjUSzP4TJCVkt38H0YJa7zGL_GgOmWKHZribN9+BHqg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <38289BCD655B48459520F8EE05E352C7@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: Looking for powerpc and decent graphics card for Apple Quadra 
950


> On 16 December 2011 13:42, Joost van de Griek <gyorpb at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2011-12-15 17:00, silvercreekvalley wrote:
>>
>>> I'd also like to put in a PowerPC upgrade if I can find one. I used to
>>> have
>>> one of these years ago, and it used to work pretty well. The Quadra has
>>> a PDS type slot.
>>
>> That slot will take a SCSI accellerator card, which will essentially
>> transforn your 950 into a WGS95.
>>
>> Please don't disgrace this beautiful 68K machine with PPC upgrades. It is
>> pretty much begging for an A/UX install.
>
> What Joost said, pretty much!
>
> That's one of the last and among the most powerful 68K Macs ever. Why
> turn it into an underpowered, poorly-performing PowerPC machine?
>
> It would be a lovely machine to run MacOS 8.1 on - and having that
> dual-booting with A/UX would also be very cool indeed. With relatively
> easy-to-find and inexpensive 4MB SIMMs, you could fit it with 64MB
> RAM, which is plenty for OS8 and would get you up and running with
> A/UX.
>

The 950 is one of my favorite Macs, I have 5 of them (one original mint 
WGS95, 4 normal 950's). Nothing runs A/UX as well as a WGS95 with the full 
512Kb cache installed on the PDS SCSI card (for a server anyway). There are 
68K upgrades for the 950's I have one clocked at 50Mhz with cache: 
https://picasaweb.google.com/107784270771159898725/MiscComputerGear#5067911244577461506

The 601 PPC upgrade cards are not that bad, I use one in a 950 because it is 
an AVID video editing setup and requires it (you need more then 3 Nubus 
slots for all the cards involved). There is a cool PDS SCSI card for the 950 
: 
https://picasaweb.google.com/107784270771159898725/NubusCards#5687111181166812674 
and of course the coolest PDS upgrade the Daystar 601-80 with 4 x 72 pin 
SIMMs and 1MB cache the 68K side can also use. So if you max out the 950 
with 256MB of 16MB 30 pin SIMMs and get the Daystar card with another 128MB 
of RAM you have a 68K Mac that can use 384MB of RAM! You can boot with or 
without the accelerator running by using the Daystar control panel so you 
don't really ruin anything unless you need that Nubus/PDS slot for something 
else.

Mostly I like the 950's because of all the cool upgrade cards I can stick in 
them. It used to be you couldn't give those models away but one recently 
sold for $200 + expensive shipping so somebody must have wised up about 
their collectability.








From teoz at neo.rr.com  Sat Dec 17 09:18:55 2011
From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:18:55 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 10:08 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub 
converter possible?


> TeoZ wrote:
>
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:54 AM
>> Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
>> converter possible?
>>
>>
>> >ben wrote:
>> >
>> >>Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
>> >>electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for 
>> >>a
>> >>few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
>> >>Ben.
>> >>
>> >
>> >So we all now have no problems with that, or what?
>> >
>> >We are all buying things day for day that while not lasting long gonig 
>> >to
>> >the waste disposal. We are wasting the resources of our children...
>> >
>> >Regards,
>> >
>> >Holm
>> >-- 
>>
>> Depending how fast (and how much) the junk is recycled it could keep 
>> strip
>> mining for new materials down. How much of that old stuff that lasted
>> forever just ended up in the dump to rot and leach poisons into the 
>> ground?
>> There will eventually be some kind of compromise for longer life and
>> cleaner 99% recycling.
>>
>
> Did you men recycling in nigeria or something that actually happens?
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>
Before ewaste was cheaper to ship overseas I am sure quite a bit of it ended 
up in US landfills. Sooner or later those landfills will be dug up and 
recycled since it will be cheaper then digging 5 miles into the earth 
looking for it, plus anything currently junked will go straight to be 
recycled and reused.




From dgahling at hotmail.com  Sat Dec 17 09:26:42 2011
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:26:42 -0500
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCF9uBEGq417=j+feBdD1jvO84VKoR1gJHzQjoM=uzsumg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>,
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>,
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>,
 <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>,
 <BLU166-W27C7B0FAE0516C1297A6FBC9A10@phx.gbl>,
 <CAMTenCF9uBEGq417=j+feBdD1jvO84VKoR1gJHzQjoM=uzsumg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W2606445CCE37D8111EE439C9A10@phx.gbl>


I think you're misleading people.
It doesn't make the transition easier at all, in fact, it probably makes it worse.

and btw the mtools and such allow you to work with un*x files just as much as non.

in the end, if they're going to use un*x, they have to learn. there is no other way.

Do you now want to "dumb down" things like:

perl, python, and C? or awk and sed?

How about dumbing-down regular expressions, I mean, after all, those are horribly complicated.

I know. let's make a "basic" (programming language) to regular expression conversion kit!
Why not, I mean, these people are too stupid to figure out that "ls" does dir and "mv" is rename/move.

The best way to learn a foreign language is through immersion.

Linux for the desktop is a fallacy. You don't want the desktop to look and work like windows.
(BTW theres already a distro for that - Linspire or Xandros for example)

You think people switched to Mac because the Mac CLI can run all DOS commands? it can't.
or that the GUI is identical? it's not.

the point of a distro is not to make it look and feel or work like something else.
it's to -BE- something else.

> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:16:05 +0000
> Subject: Re: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
> From: lproven at gmail.com
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> 
> On 17 December 2011 13:28, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > Have you tried:
> >
> > mtools
> > dosbox
> >
> > or even (dare I suggest) - dosemu ?
> 
> Yes, of course. For manipulating DOS floppies, or for running DOS apps.
> 
> But they are, obviously, *not shells.* So, no, I do not use them for
> attempting to manipulate Unix files.
> 
> Look, Unix/Linux has replaceable shells and comes with a choice of
> them: bash, zsh, tcsh, csh, etc. etc. This is well-known.
> 
> What I am arguing for is another one, but one that uses a CLI that is
> approximately syntax-compatible with that of the industry-leading OS,
> the OS that runs on approximately 95% of the desktop, laptop and
> server computers in the world and has done for 25y now.
> 
> I know that this CLI is less powerful and less flexible and less
> capable than the Unix one. I am not arguing that.
> 
> What I am arguing is that the Unix one is hard work. It's complex, it
> takes time to learn - and, I'd say, a certain mindset, too - and it's
> also quite dangerous if you're not careful. It is, as all these "rm *.
> o" examples illustrate, very easy to accidentally do things you didn't
> mean to because it's so terse and the commands can do so much.
> 
> It can do many brilliant and wonderful things that I don't want to do. :?)
> 
> But it is often notably poor at /easily/ and /simply/ doing the stuff
> I do on a daily or weekly basis, like, say, searching recursively
> through users' home directories, finding, moving then later erasing
> all the temporary files abandoned by MS Office because it's too crap
> to clean up its own detritus after itself or even keep its temp files
> in the designate temp-files directory.
> 
> If I can specify *.foo as the source of a command then I damned well
> want to specify *.foo as the /destination/ of a command as well. I do
> not /care/ about how the shell is implemented, I want it to work in a
> simple and obvious fashion. If *.foo matches all files called
> (something)(full stop)('foo') in one position in the command then it
> is natural and obvious that it should /also/ match (something)(full
> stop)('foo') in /any other position in the command as well/. It does
> on almost every other CLI OS I have ever seen, from RSTS to VMS to
> CP/M to DOS to Windows 7. /Pace/ different wildcard operators and
> things it does on AmigaOS and Acorn RISC OS and so on as well.
> 
> On every Unix shell I've seen (i.e. since the late 1980s), it doesn't.
> Because Unix doesn't work that way. It's special. It does things
> differently.
> 
> Well, that's fine. I am not arguing for the removal of all other
> shells except my notional DOS-like one. Good gods no.
> 
> I'm just saying that, for all its limitations, the DOS-type method
> does actually have its uses and indeed its *benefits*. I honestly
> think it's easier - easier to learn, easier to use.
> 
> And given that DOS-type systems run on 95% of x86 hardware, and that
> most people in IT only use DOS-type x86 systems and know nothing else,
> then there's a fairly strong case to be made that this way works and
> is good enough.
> 
> Perhaps it's another instance of the "worse is better" argument.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worse_is_better
> 
> > and seriously this is like saying un*x is crap
> 
> I'm not saying it's crap. I'm saying it's more difficult, yes.
> 
> >  because it doesn't have the exact CLI for:
> >
> > Vax/VMS, Cyber/Prime, Cray, Commodore C64, Amiga, Atari, Sentry/70 or any other ancient CLI we might have used.
> 
> Ah, but none of those sell roughly ten times more than all the Unixes
> in the world ever put together, do they? None of those utterly
> dominate commercial, charitable and governmental computing. None of
> those are the de facto standard, so overwhelming that even the
> surviving RISC UNIX boxes today use the buses and the interface
> connectors and the video and networking standards, and the storage
> media, and the disks and the RAM, *set by the x86 PC.*
> 
> 
> > or, even better, why can't windows have a full decent uni*x CLI? cygwin/etc is close but not close enough.
> 
> Sure, if that's what you want, fine.
> 
> > As you say, typical windows users never touch the CLI or even know it exists, M$ tried to kill the CLI with the "powershell"
> > and attempt to keep users away from it at all costs.
> 
> Users? Yes, in large part. Admins? No, actually, that is changing,
> fast. Modern versions of MS server tools are graphical wrappers around
> command lines, and when you perform an operation, they show you the
> command line first so that you can learn to do it yourself.
> 
> The big new thing in Windows servers is the massive engineering effort
> to separate out the kernel and the GUI, the server application layers
> from the presentation layers. There are now CLI-only versions of
> Windows Server (although they retain the windowing system, thus far),
> and CLI-only versions of the big server apps, so that you can run them
> on headless boxes hosted in VMs and manage them remotely.
> 
> Yes, it means MS is trying hard to catch up with where Unix has been
> for decades, yes yes. We know.
> 
> But still, it's happening. Finally, MS is learning some stuff from the
> way things are done on the older OSs, the ones in long trousers that
> were established before Tim Paterson even wrote QDOS.
> 
> > have you ever had a user spell "DIR" incorrectly?... (sadly, not a joke)
> 
> Nope. But I've done it myself. :?)
> 
> > I've had users (recently!) who can't even enter a URL! (they didn't know what "www" was - yet somehow use the web every day)
> 
> Oh, yes, absolutely. But they're happy with their GUIs; leave them to
> it. I'm talking about a tool to make life easy for the legions of
> Windows techies out there to adapt to the proliferation of free
> Unixes.
> 
> Well, a bit. That's just a thought experiment. Mostly I am trying to
> justify my own preferences. :?)
> 
> -- 
> Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
> Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
> AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
> 
 		 	   		  

From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec 17 10:13:38 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Toby Thain wrote:

> On 16/12/11 11:43 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> >
> >>>Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
> >>>association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
> >>>times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
> >>>codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
> >>>absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
> >>
> >>I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple 
> >>for
> >>removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
> >>concern).
> >>
> >>The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate 
> >>this
> >>consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
> >>set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain 
> >>files to
> >>automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a 
> >>time
> >>OS X gave you the choice.
> >>
> >>--
> >>------------------------------------ personal: 
> >>http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
> >>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * 
> >>   ckaiser at floodgap.com
> >>-- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell 
> >>---------------------------
> >
> >OS X is not Unix in this case and Unix never ever decided what to do with a
> >file by its extension but t does by its magic number (look for /etc/magic).
> 
> Unix traditionally *doesn't* do that either.

How do you think an unix shell is starting an excecutable file and trough
wich mechanism it knows what todo with an perl script, an shell script, an
C-shell scipt, and different kinds of executable binary formats?
It looks in the file for its header and is starting the correct command
interpreter for running that file or set up the environment for executing a
binary executable.

In unix a shell is doing this, so the guy above with it's CP/M hint is
really right here.

> 
> Automatic file associations are a post-GUI idea, in general, to my 
> recollection. Traditionally in Unix you can apply any program to any 
> file. It may or may not sniff! It may or may not crash. etc. :)
> 
> It is pretty hard on the traditional Unix command line to say: "open 
> this file with whatever program can deal with it". [OS X has such a 
> command; I think GNOME does; but again: post-GUI.]
> 
> (I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're suggesting.)
> 
> 
> >
> >BTW:
> >touch what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
> >$ ls -l what*
> >-rw-r--r--  1 holm  holm  0 16 Dez 17:40 
> >what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
> >$ rm what*
> >$
> 
> I'm not sure what this is meant to illustrate?

Where is the file extension of this file and which one is to be used for
that what you want?

Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
represents. An Handler in the OS or one of the user shells (if Gui or not)
could decide this way what todo with it regarding the capabilities that the
concrete environment actually has.

This is exactly what the /etc/magic mechanism is doing.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec 17 10:15:18 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:15:18 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <20111217161518.GB36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

John Foust wrote:

> At 07:50 PM 12/16/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
> >(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're suggesting.)
> 
> Most of the magic and usefulness of 'file' is due to the fact that many 
> commonly used files were in standard formats and did contain fixed magic 
> identifying bytes in their headers.  It's metadata inside the file.
> Extensions put the metadata in the filename, and look at all the tools
> that assume filename extensions are standard (.sh, .c, .h, .m, .o).
> 
> - John

I think the above example is more meant for humans.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec 17 10:26:26 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:26:26 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFRxwhbyOeqYArm+gXqbWWj+Cd-L3T=QgCULsFkr9h55g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>
 <CAMTenCFRxwhbyOeqYArm+gXqbWWj+Cd-L3T=QgCULsFkr9h55g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111217162626.GC36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Liam Proven wrote:

> On Dec 17, 2011 2:15 AM, "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> >
> > At 07:50 PM 12/16/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
> > >(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're
> suggesting.)
> >
> > Most of the magic and usefulness of 'file' is due to the fact that many
> > commonly used files were in standard formats and did contain fixed magic
> > identifying bytes in their headers.  It's metadata inside the file.
> > Extensions put the metadata in the filename, and look at all the tools
> > that assume filename extensions are standard (.sh, .c, .h, .m, .o).
> 
> Exactly my point. Well, one of them. UNIX /does/ have and use and even
> depends upon file extensions, and yet, the shell does not really understand
> them as a separate entity from the file's /name/... & it is poorer than the
> admittedly far less powerful or capable Microsoft shell at manipulating

No, you are really wrong. The above example has absolutly nothing todo with
unix. No one is rejecting you to write a shell that doing things in an
other way. .sh is not neccessary for an shellscript. .c .h .m .o are only
interesting for make or for the  compiler, which can be an cross compiler
on a entirely different platform. The compiler and make are not neccessarly
parts of the distribution of an unix system.


> files /by extension/ a opposed to /by name/.
> 
> When I do "ren *.log *.log.old" I am manipulating a /collection/ of files
> by their shared /extension/ and *not* by their name. No UNIX shell I am
> aware of can do this. Sure, you can kludge around it with loops or scripts
> or little Perl programs but that is more effort, more work and I would
> argue less elegant.

This is a shell thing and depends of the file expansion with wildcards that
the shell is doing.
Again, nobody rejects that you can write a shell that is doing thinks in an
other way. This has nothing todo with unix. In unix are standard shells
that are following standards how to do this filename expansion. But there
is more than one shell available, many of them, even ascii windowed
versions where you have no chance to give you ren command this way.
Even an NC-clone on unix is a shell to the user.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 10:34:46 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:34:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <201112171634.LAA24601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Is it annoying to anyone to either answer "y" to an "Are you sure?"
>> prompt or type in "rm -y *" to autoconfirm in these few cases?

> Bad idea, breaks the generic user interface assumption that the
> machine just goes and does what it is being told instead of nagging
> you with "are you really sure?" prompts in the default case.

> Unix standard: the training wheels are off, the user is assumed to
> know WTF he/she/it is doing.  If you want the training wheels, switch
> them on explicitly, but don't annoy the experts all the time. ;-)

There is some truth to this; it would be defensible to instead make rm
grow a -warn-about-* option (presumably not spelled quite that way :)
rather than warning by default and having a -don't-warn-about-* option
(spelled -y in the above strawman).

> In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already
> available, just use "rm -i".

This is completely misunderstanding the point.  rm -i warns about every
removal, even the completely innocuous ones.  That may be what you
want, but it's not what we ("we" = "me and, IIUC, Josh") want.  We want
a mode of operation in which most rm commands do exactly what you say,
just go off and work, but in the case where the arglist as typed
contains a bare *, it requires confirmation.

You may not want that.  Fine; you don't have to use it.  Even the
strawman above doesn't make it impossible, nor even very difficult, to
get that; you just alias rm to rm -y, or in the variant I sketched
above, you don't alias rm to rm -warn-about-* while we do.

>> [Genera "command-line"]
> Well, if you want that, just write a shell implementing that.

This is actually missing much of the point, I think.  It is somewhere
between difficult and impossible to do that in Unix, because the Unix
design enforces a fairly hard separation between the shell and the
commands it runs.  Doing this requires inventing some way to -
interactively - get information flowing between the shell and the
command that might be getting run without/before actually pulling the
trigger on the command in question.  This is a lot easier to do in a
Lisp world, because everything is in the same Lisp world, so, for
example, "commands" can be decorated with advice and properties and
such explaining to the CLI how to do this.

I'm not sure what tack I'd take to build such a thing in Unix.  But I
think it is a very productive idea to think about it; even though I
don't like that style of interaction on a Lisp Machine, the reasons
apply somewhere between far less and not at all to Unix, and the
infrastructure necessary to support it in Unix would enable a lot of
other interesting stuff - unless you do it all as a huge collection of
special cases in the wrong places, which, in the case of rm, is where
we came in.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 10:46:44 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:46:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111217114941.GD30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217114941.GD30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <201112171646.LAA24732@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> [...], while I don't recall it being done this way back when I
>> worked on Lisp Machines, I really think filesystems could be
>> eliminated in favour of other ways of addressing the needs
>> filesystems satisfy.
> Did you look at the single level store as implemented in the AS/400?

Not per se, but upon looking into it, something like that is one of the
possibilities I've been turning over in my thoughts.  I'd prefer
something more radical, though.

>> Forexample, in 2002 I worked with an experimental encrypted storage
>> paradigm that really fit the POSIX model very poorly, something I
>> was very aware of because what I was doing was building a glue layer
>> to make it mountable as a Unix filesystem.
> Hmm, care to elaborate?  Because so far I've seen two basic
> approached to encrypted storage: block level (like dm-crypt) and file
> level (like encfs, where you can use any sane filesystem, including
> NFS, as backing store).

That's less "encrypted storage" and more "encrypted storage in a way
friendly to the Unix storage model".

This thing did not fix the Unix model at all well.  To pick the thing
that gave me the most trouble, you couldn't modify a file after
creation; you had to create a new file, which might (or might not) be
almost identical to the former version.  Storage was separated fairly
hard from use; it was designed for distributed storage, and the entity
that stores the file need not have the crypto key(s) necessary to
decrypt its contents.  There was also no delete operation; they
recognized, correctly, that there is no way to force another node to
delete anything, so they didn't even try - to "delete" something you
throw away the crypto keys necessary to decrypt its contents.  (I
forget whether there was an advisory "I don't care any longer about
this content you have" operation.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Dec 17 10:47:32 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 08:47:32 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>

Mouse wrote:
>  You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?
[...]
>  My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
>  impression the "Open" part is a misnomer,

Liam Proven wrote:
 > Kinda, yes. It certainly doesn't mean what it normally tends to.

Like OpenVMS.

Shortly after the name change to OpenVMS was announced, I received in 
the mail a brochure for training classes DEC offered.  One of the 
classes was on the subject of writing OpenVMS device drivers.  It was 
noted that a signed nondisclosure agreement was required to take the 
class.  That's an even less "open" operating system than Microsoft Windows.

DEC marketing was usurping the word "Open" because they noticed that 
customers were starting to want open things. They apparently thought 
(probably correctly) that putting "Open" in the name would trick 
potential customers and bring in more sales.  Other companies did the 
same thing, but I can't think of any others where the oxymoronic name 
has lasted as long.

Someone suggested that in this usage, "Open" isn't an adjective, but 
rather a verb, and the direct object isn't "VMS" but rather your wallet.



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 10:52:45 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:52:45 +0000
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <BLU166-W2606445CCE37D8111EE439C9A10@phx.gbl>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W27C7B0FAE0516C1297A6FBC9A10@phx.gbl>
 <CAMTenCF9uBEGq417=j+feBdD1jvO84VKoR1gJHzQjoM=uzsumg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BLU166-W2606445CCE37D8111EE439C9A10@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHNQCvRbbuQY4SUxp6WC62co0gMWDgMuAr6uE8P-TkyhA@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2011 15:26, Dan Gahlinger <dgahling at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think you're misleading people.
> It doesn't make the transition easier at all, in fact, it probably makes it worse.

Perhaps; perhaps not. I "transitioned" to Linux as my desktop a decade
ago. I still don't like the shell much.

> and btw the mtools and such allow you to work with un*x files just as much as non.
>
> in the end, if they're going to use un*x, they have to learn. there is no other way.

I disagree, and I think that products such as Mac OS X and Ubuntu
abundantly disprove this.

> Do you now want to "dumb down" things like:
>
> perl, python, and C? or awk and sed?

No. I don't care. I never use them. Nor do 99.9% of MICROS~1 users.
They can remain as cryptic as they wish; it makes no difference to me.

> How about dumbing-down regular expressions, I mean, after all, those are horribly complicated.

I never use them, either, so I don't care. Leave them be.

> I know. let's make a "basic" (programming language) to regular expression conversion kit!
> Why not, I mean, these people are too stupid to figure out that "ls" does dir and "mv" is rename/move.

And why not?

> The best way to learn a foreign language is through immersion.

Sure, true. But this is not a language - it's an option, one that the
vast majority of commercial Unix users don't even know is there. (That
means Apple users: all Mac OS X and all iPhones and iPads are UNIX?.)

> Linux for the desktop is a fallacy.

It's already here. I'm using it, as are tens of millions of others.

Then there are the 100? as many Android phone users...

> You don't want the desktop to look and work like windows.

Who said anything about that?

> (BTW theres already a distro for that - Linspire or Xandros for example)

Both long dead.

> You think people switched to Mac because the Mac CLI can run all DOS commands? it can't.
> or that the GUI is identical? it's not.
>
> the point of a distro is not to make it look and feel or work like something else.
> it's to -BE- something else.

Sure, that's fine. No argument.

But the point that I am making that you are ignoring is the ways in
which, for some common tasks, the DOS way is *better.*

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 10:54:36 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:54:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> [...] Unix never ever decided what to do with a file by its
>>> extension but t does by its magic number [...]
>> Unix traditionally *doesn't* do that either.
> How do you think an unix shell is starting an excecutable file and
> trough wich mechanism it knows what todo with an perl script, an
> shell script, an C-shell scipt, and different kinds of executable
> binary formats?  It looks in the file for its header and is starting
> the correct command interpreter for running that file or set up the
> environment for executing a binary executable.

> In unix a shell is doing this,

Actually, in the Unices I know well enough to know where that is done,
it's the kernel that does that, not the shell.

As for the whole "determine what to do based on content" idea, it's a
reasonable default, but it really needs to be overridable.  To pick the
example that coems to mind most readily, I have not infrequently wanted
to take a file and print it twice, once treating it as text and once
treating it as PostScript code.  (PostScript code can be, and often is,
plain text.)

I usually have to end up running it through a text-to-PS filter because
the printing subsystem insists on treating everything that looks enough
like PostScript as PostScript. :(

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 11:05:12 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:05:12 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EECCBC8.3010905@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 11:13 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Toby Thain wrote:
>
>> On 16/12/11 11:43 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>>> Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
>>>>> association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
>>>>> times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its type/creator
>>>>> codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
>>>>> absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
>>>>
>>>> I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple
>>>> for
>>>> removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really my
>>>> concern).
>>>>
>>>> The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate
>>>> this
>>>> consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) to
>>>> set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain
>>>> files to
>>>> automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a
>>>> time
>>>> OS X gave you the choice.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ------------------------------------ personal:
>>>> http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
>>>>    Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
>>>>    ckaiser at floodgap.com
>>>> -- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell
>>>> ---------------------------
>>>
>>> OS X is not Unix in this case and Unix never ever decided what to do with a
>>> file by its extension but t does by its magic number (look for /etc/magic).
>>
>> Unix traditionally *doesn't* do that either.
>
> How do you think an unix shell is starting an excecutable file and trough
> wich mechanism it knows what todo with an perl script, an shell script, an
> C-shell scipt, and different kinds of executable binary formats?
> It looks in the file for its header and is starting the correct command
> interpreter for running that file or set up the environment for executing a
> binary executable.
>
> In unix a shell is doing this, so the guy above with it's CP/M hint is
> really right here.

You are right about that mechanism in shell, for executables.

But I was thinking about user files. There's no corresponding mechanism 
in traditional non-GUI Unix (GUIs usually add one).

>
>>
>> Automatic file associations are a post-GUI idea, in general, to my
>> recollection. Traditionally in Unix you can apply any program to any
>> file. It may or may not sniff! It may or may not crash. etc. :)
>>
>> It is pretty hard on the traditional Unix command line to say: "open
>> this file with whatever program can deal with it". [OS X has such a
>> command; I think GNOME does; but again: post-GUI.]
>>
>> (I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're suggesting.)
>>
>>
>>>
>>> BTW:
>>> touch what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
>>> $ ls -l what*
>>> -rw-r--r--  1 holm  holm  0 16 Dez 17:40
>>> what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
>>> $ rm what*
>>> $
>>
>> I'm not sure what this is meant to illustrate?
>
> Where is the file extension of this file and which one is to be used for
> that what you want?
>
> Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> represents. An Handler in the OS or one of the user shells (if Gui or not)
> could decide this way what todo with it regarding the capabilities that the
> concrete environment actually has.

Yes, that more-or-less happens in those cases (GUIs and executables run 
from shell).

But it *doesn't* happen elsewhere in Unix (e.g. for non-executable files).

--T

>
> This is exactly what the /etc/magic mechanism is doing.
>
> Regards,
>
> Holm



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 11:06:01 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:06:01 +0000
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGPostqqtPDdv3H_ZcDZhF0Z=g-9Hw6H_fVcKH=0RQyeQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2011 16:47, Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> wrote:
> Mouse wrote:
>>
>> ?You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?
>
> [...]
>
>> ?My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
>> ?impression the "Open" part is a misnomer,
>
>
> Liam Proven wrote:
>> Kinda, yes. It certainly doesn't mean what it normally tends to.
>
> Like OpenVMS.
>
> Shortly after the name change to OpenVMS was announced, I received in the
> mail a brochure for training classes DEC offered. ?One of the classes was on
> the subject of writing OpenVMS device drivers. ?It was noted that a signed
> nondisclosure agreement was required to take the class. ?That's an even less
> "open" operating system than Microsoft Windows.
>
> DEC marketing was usurping the word "Open" because they noticed that
> customers were starting to want open things. They apparently thought
> (probably correctly) that putting "Open" in the name would trick potential
> customers and bring in more sales. ?Other companies did the same thing, but
> I can't think of any others where the oxymoronic name has lasted as long.
>
> Someone suggested that in this usage, "Open" isn't an adjective, but rather
> a verb, and the direct object isn't "VMS" but rather your wallet.

:?D Very well put!


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 11:06:36 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:06:36 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
Message-ID: <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 10:18 AM, TeoZ wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Saturday, December 17, 2011 10:08 AM
> Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
> converter possible?
>
>
>> TeoZ wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Holm Tiffe" <holm at freibergnet.de>
>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 11:54 AM
>>> Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
>>> converter possible?
>>>
>>>
>>> >ben wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>Fine Print. Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
>>> >>electric current this product. I think standard caps are only good
>>> for >>a
>>> >>few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
>>> >>Ben.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >So we all now have no problems with that, or what?
>>> >
>>> >We are all buying things day for day that while not lasting long
>>> gonig >to
>>> >the waste disposal. We are wasting the resources of our children...
>>> >
>>> >Regards,
>>> >
>>> >Holm
>>> >--
>>> Depending how fast (and how much) the junk is recycled it could keep
>>> strip
>>> mining for new materials down. How much of that old stuff that lasted
>>> forever just ended up in the dump to rot and leach poisons into the
>>> ground?
>>> There will eventually be some kind of compromise for longer life and
>>> cleaner 99% recycling.
>>>
>>
>> Did you men recycling in nigeria or something that actually happens?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Holm
>>
> Before ewaste was cheaper to ship overseas I am sure quite a bit of it
> ended up in US landfills. Sooner or later those landfills will be dug up
> and recycled since it will be cheaper then digging 5 miles into the
> earth looking for it, plus anything currently junked will go straight to
> be recycled and reused.
>
>
>

What an astonishingly inefficient process. It's much harder to get 
non-renewable materials out of unmarked landfills with random contents 
than it was to get them out of the earth in the first place.

Why. Not. Recycle. Properly.

--Toby



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Dec 17 11:09:20 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 09:09:20 -0800
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>,
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net>,
 <CAMTenCH7v83VZBVeAjJT7DmU1kEhJ_m+=w6-0tpQ4JG3X2O=eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEC5C40.25524.1A567E@cclist.sydex.com>

On 17 Dec 2011 at 13:00, Liam Proven wrote:

> Joking aside, I have considered it. I honestly think a decent
> Win9x/NT-style DOS shell for Linux would help its adoption by Windows
> techies moving across. The main snag being that C21 Windows techies
> barely use the CLI at all and are not really skilled in it, whereas
> 1990s or even 1980s MS techies probably know Unix already.

Has anyone here used CENVID--an interpreted C-- type of shell on DOS, 
OS/2 or NT?  It's in the SIMTEL collection from about 1995 or so.  
There are 16 bit real, protected and Win32 versions.

I found it to be quite handy when taking files from other systems 
with strange names and converting them into something that most 
DOS/Windows apps would be comfortable with.

It was sold by Nombas, which seems to have long gone bye-bye.

--Chuck



From doc at vaxen.net  Sat Dec 17 11:25:34 2011
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:25:34 -0600
Subject: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <4EEBBD75.7030101@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E9F22@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>
 <4EEBBD75.7030101@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EECD08E.2040409@vaxen.net>

On 12/16/11 3:51 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> I wrote:
>  > ersonally I use a shell for loop with mv and basename, like:
>  > for f in *.foo; do mv $f `basename $f .foo`.bar; done
>  > That won't work when you want to change something other
>  > than the suffix of a file,
>
> Rich Alderson wrote:
> I also sometimes have to rename files from mixed case or all caps to all
> lower case, and bash has an expansion feature useful for that, too:
>
> for f in *; do mv $f ${f,,}; done
>
> ',,' means convert all characters to lower case. '^^' would convert to
> all upper case.

   This uppercase/lowercase feature is specific to bash v4.x...

Not Directed At Eric:
   This is one of my big gripes about shell-scripting.  It seems that a 
lot of people write scripts with the intent of distribution, but also 
with built-in assumptions that the target user and system will be 
version- and filesystem-identical to the development environment.

   ASSuming that "#!/bin/sh" will execute bash is a very common example. 
  Doing flaoting-point math in ksh is another - to this day most systems 
execute ksh88 by default.

   Granted you can't provide for every possible target environment, but 
a little error checking and problem reporting, along with a lot of 
commenting, sure goes a long way.


	Doc


From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Dec 17 11:48:31 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 09:48:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Dec 17,
 11 08:47:32 am"
Message-ID: <201112171748.pBHHmVEx012026@floodgap.com>

> Someone suggested that in this usage, "Open" isn't an adjective, but 
> rather a verb, and the direct object isn't "VMS" but rather your wallet.

An Object-Verb-Subject product name with an implied direct object? No wonder
it's cognitively difficult.
</linguisthumour>

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- In memory of Werner Klemperer ----------------------------------------------


From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Dec 17 11:51:13 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:51:13 -0600
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
 <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>

At 11:06 AM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>What an astonishingly inefficient process. It's much harder to get non-renewable materials out of unmarked landfills with random contents than it was to get them out of the earth in the first place. Why. Not. Recycle. Properly.


Usually because people don't want to pay to make it easy to recycle.

Although mining landfills sounds like fun, I can't help but think that
they'll run into things they wish they hadn't found, and then will be
asked to clean up those old messes, too.  A landfill from the 1990s
is a different beast compared to a "dump" in the 1940s.  I might want
to go mining for tantalum and gold, but I might still dig into an
acre of paint residues.

Speaking of bursting electrolytics, hasn't anyone developed a quick
test to detect the ones with the chemicals?  When it first started
happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe.  Now it
sounds like it's done as a cost savings.

- John



From robert at irrelevant.com  Sat Dec 17 12:00:54 2011
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:00:54 +0000
Subject: Tandy Videotex and Office Information System
Message-ID: <CAApARtv8_E33eXuF7Go5hb=mwAFJ5Hirett+cJ_qFf8fxP=62Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All.

sorry about the quoting - only just re-enabled emails from the list;
pasting this out of the web archive:

Back in October Kelly Leavitt wrote:
>>>In July of 1983 Tandy announced the "Tandy Videotex and Office
Information System" that ran under Xenix. It was an early attempt at a
hypertext system. It used dialup lines and was hosted on Tandy Model 16b
(and later 6000) computers.

An 8 port and 16 port multiplexor (that's how they spelled it) were
announced. I don't know if either ever shipped.

There is some information available in the July 25, 1983 issue of
InfoWorld. There is also an article in "TRS-80 Microcomputer News" V5,I
11 (#54 ).

I used to run one of these for a local company (that I still work for).
Does anyone have the manuals or software from one of these systems? I
still have the hardware (not the mux, just the 16b and hard drive).

Kelly
<<<<

One of my standard searches on eBay brought up item 270408833511
"Tandy TRS-80 - Model 2000 - Videotex Plus (1983)"

Looks like a complete set - manual in binder and software diskette.
I'veNo connection to seller, etc..

I'm now firmly into collecting Prestel/Videdata/Videotex hardware and
software, which is fairly easy on the pocket as not much exists, and
nobody else seams interested in it. This one is borderline, but way
too expensive for me!   oh, I also run www.videdata.org.uk. (Hi Tony!)

Rob.


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 12:16:21 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:16:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
 <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <201112171816.NAA25860@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> When it first started happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of
> industrial espionage gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of
> the recipe.  Now it sounds like it's done as a cost savings.

Industrial espionage _is_ cost savings: it's cheaper to swipe something
from a competitor than to develop it yourself - or, at least, when it
isn't then industrial espionage is a stupid thing to do. :)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 12:27:23 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:27:23 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111217114350.GC30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217114350.GC30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EECDF0B.7080203@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/17/2011 3:43 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>> I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be
>> interactive and helpful, rather than simply passive.  (And I believe
>> it can be done in a way that makes both experts and novices happy.)
>> Perhaps not in the way Genera does it, but my point is -there is
>> room for improvement-.  Today we have gazillions of cycles sitting
>> idle, displays with millions of pixels and our primary interface to
>> the CLI is not much more advanced than an ASR 33.  (At least we have
>> lowercase characters.)  The CLI itself hasn't really evolved at all
>> since Unix c. the 70s.
> Because it simply works. Oh, there have been improvements since the early
> days, like tab-completion (which is very handy) or programmable completion
> (which tries to be smart and ends up being very annoying, so I quickly
> get rid of it where it is installed by default).

Gotcha.  The CLI sprang forth from the mind of DMR complete and perfect 
and it is the end-all, be-all of operating system interfaces.  Nothing 
can improve upon it (except maybe tab completion).


>
>>>> I've literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting
>>>> your files is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to
>>>> which I disagree with this idea :).
>>> I think there is a little truth lurking in it, though.  While it
>>> doesn't have to take the form of a bad experience with rm, I think that
>>> learning that Unix is an extremely YAFIYGI system is very important,
>>> even to the point where it might be fair to call it a rite of passage.
>> And a rite of passage you'll experience again, and again, and
>> again... it's the gift that keeps on giving :).
> Well, some people _are_ capably of learning from past mistakes. Not all
> people, unfortunately, but some ;-)

Again, the "real Unix gurus never make mistakes, and screw everyone 
else" mentality.  Gotcha.

- Josh


>
> Kind regards,
>              Alex.


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 12:32:06 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:32:06 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/17/2011 3:33 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 07:22:02PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular
>> invokation of rm that isn't commonly used -- it's an exceptional
>> case that someone really wants to delete all files in a particular
>> directory.  Is it annoying to anyone to either answer "y" to an "Are
>> you sure?" prompt or type in "rm -y *" to autoconfirm in these few
>> cases?
> Bad idea, breaks the generic user interface assumption that the machine
> just goes and does what it is being told instead of nagging you with
> "are you really sure?" prompts in the default case.

Yeah, that was kind of the point.  I honestly don't care about people's 
attitude about "nagging" in edge cases and I'm happy to change Unix 
behavior for these cases.

>
> Unix standard: the training wheels are off, the user is assumed to know WTF
> he/she/it is doing. If you want the training wheels, switch them on
> explicitly, but don't annoy the experts all the time. ;-)

Again, I disagree with this.  *EVERYONE* gets screwed by this behavior 
from time to time.  "Experts" don't get annoyed "all the time" by this 
(quick question -- how often in a given week do you run "rm *" ?  How 
much longer would it take you to append "-y" to those invocations?)


>
> In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already available, just
> use "rm -i".
>
>>   Even if it is slightly more work, think of the tradeoff
>> that's being made: you're saving every Unix user the pain of
>> accidentally screwing themselves via a typo -- and just as evidenced
>> by responses on this list, *everyone* (well, mostly everyone) has
>> managed to do this at least once or knows someone who has.
> Live and learn. And pain is a very powerful mnemonic fixative ;-)

I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm 
talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that "real" 
Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve* it.  It's 
computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm concerned...

- Josh




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 12:34:43 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:34:43 -0500
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <20111216221119.Y18703@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111216091925.F18703@shell.lmi.net> <4EEBF3AE.30804@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111216221119.Y18703@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EECE0C3.80102@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 1:30 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>> I have THE definitive solution for the original poster:
>>> WRITE A NEW SHELL.  It would be the easiest way to get DOS-like filename
>>> handling capabilities with Unix.
>
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> No, no. It's something Unix *cannot do*. You have to change the
>> operating system.
>
> No, no. It's something Unix *can do*.  What do YOU mean "have to
> change the operating system"??  All of the file manipulation crap that you
> are talking about, such as renaming and wildcards can be done by a program
> running on Unix.  Parsing and DOING  "RENAME *.LOG *.OLD" is NOT a big
> deal.

Don't tell _me_. My whole side of the thread has been arguing the same 
thing, and what you replied to was mild sarcasm. Because Liam wrote:

 > Well, /strictly/, yes, but since I have never seen or heard of
 > a single UNIX or Linux shell that does what I consider to be the
 > sane or right thing, I think it's fair to say that it's an
 > attribute of the OS as a whole.

and

 > I think writing a small program to do what would take a single command
 > on almost any other CLI OS I have ever used illustrates my point
 > rather well...!

(!!) Actually it illustrates that Unix can be made to do exactly what 
you want, instead of having to rely forever on what came in the box. But 
that was probably already addressed in remote parts of this thread.

--T



From ajp166 at verizon.net  Sat Dec 17 12:39:43 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:39:43 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>

On 12/17/2011 11:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> Mouse wrote:
>>  You mentioned OpenGenera; is this an open-source version or something?
> [...]
>>  My (rudimentary) web-search skillz end up at pages that give the
>>  impression the "Open" part is a misnomer,
>
> Liam Proven wrote:
> > Kinda, yes. It certainly doesn't mean what it normally tends to.
>
> Like OpenVMS.
>
> Shortly after the name change to OpenVMS was announced, I received in 
> the mail a brochure for training classes DEC offered.  One of the 
> classes was on the subject of writing OpenVMS device drivers.  It was 
> noted that a signed nondisclosure agreement was required to take the 
> class.  That's an even less "open" operating system than Microsoft 
> Windows.
>

If you took the course you got to see DEC developed drivers in the 
flesh.   Hence NDA.    OVMS was propritory but the interfaces to the OS
matched the open concept so developers could work with it without NDA.  
M$ did and still does have interfaces that are both undocumented
they also use backdoor interfaces, never minding the interfaces that 
were poorly documented or didn't work as described or would change
with updates.

 >DEC marketing was usurping the word "Open" because they noticed that 
customers were starting to want open things. They apparently thought 
(probably correctly) that putting "Open" in the name would trick 
potential customers and bring in more sales.  Other companies did the 
same thing, but I can't think of any others where the oxymoronic name 
has lasted as long.

One may feel that way but during a time of OSs that were so locked up 
you needed NDA and developers kit from that vendor before you
could start it was the right direction.

>
> Someone suggested that in this usage, "Open" isn't an adjective, but 
> rather a verb, and the direct object isn't "VMS" but rather your wallet.
>
>

 From the hobby perspective Open always meant Free, and Sources.  The 
professionals it meant access to what was needed and
good documentation and training as the OS code was not their job nor 
anything they wanted to mess with unless broken and
for that they expected  a level of support that could resolve that.

On the other hand VMS was/is trying to maintain a reputation of 24x365 
and M$ was reboot often and keep the reset switch on the
front of the machine.  To have a machine that can do 24x365 you need 
good hardware and all along there were PCs up to the task
but the OSs common were not so robust.  From my perspecive at one time I 
had the luck of running VMS, One of the sorta unix (on pC)
servers and NT4.51, VMS the biggest job was keeping the power supplied 
to the box and occasion new product additions, The unix PC
was fairly stable but would suffer from disk and IO issues, the NT3.51 
box was same hardware and added BSOD and memory leaks
requiring reboots every week or application hangs never minding keeping 
at it to insure security.   Also the VMS machine I could
develop and deploy often without neededing to write a line of compiled 
code as DCL was usually more than enough.

The other side of the argument was DEC licenses VMS and with that 
purchase you got a wall of documentation.  The level of
documentation runs from user level and system administrator to outright 
this is what you need to write an app for VMS with
all the supporting information. M% and even LINUX does not match that.  
Granted Linux you can just find the module and
read the code but your subject to the writing style of the author and 
the available documentation and there is the little issue
of what was intended vs what it actually did.  In the end many 
programmer do not have the time to wade through hundreds
or even thousands of lines of code for a OS bug or misfeature.

In the end there was a unix core OS for PCs that was good but who 
remembers them and what ever happened to them.
hint the protocol for networking was IPX because they didn't do IP or 
DECnet natively.  Then there was OS2, SCO Unix
and so on.  The only PC (WINTEL) based OS that has made inroads on the 
WINTEL world is Linux and I'd bet 85% of the
users cannot compile anything on it, nor wish too, as they use it as 
applications platform.


Allison


From spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 17 12:40:30 2011
From: spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com (spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:40:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 52
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1324147230.90770.YahooMailRC@web82406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

...When it first started
happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe...

at the time I heard 3 guys from the factory got together and stole 3 parts of 
the formula from a tiawanese factory and defected to mainland china for a $1M 
bounty. But they didn't know of a 4th part; the corrosion inhibitor. Without the 
4th part the caps were supposed to little time bombs, slowly eating away at 
their aluminum cases. I do know I woke up one night after having a dream of 
popcorn popping only to find a ATX p/s with caps going off like popcorn in the 
room next door. I unplugged the PC and put it in the bath tub and went back to 
sleep. Changed out the p/s the next day and it worked fine.


From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 12:42:49 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:42:49 +0000
Subject: Tandy Videotex and Office Information System
In-Reply-To: <CAApARtv8_E33eXuF7Go5hb=mwAFJ5Hirett+cJ_qFf8fxP=62Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAApARtv8_E33eXuF7Go5hb=mwAFJ5Hirett+cJ_qFf8fxP=62Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALfYgtmRfGVwfsaFva0Oc2JH5h7vLy-Vvrw1FW9Y6ypFer1uSQ@mail.gmail.com>

> too expensive for me! ? oh, I also run www.videdata.org.uk. (Hi Tony!)

spelling of the url or its broke ?

Dave Caroline (had his finger in the uk videotex pie)



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 12:47:31 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:47:31 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECDF0B.7080203@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217114350.GC30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECDF0B.7080203@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EECE3C3.3020208@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 1:27 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>
> On 12/17/2011 3:43 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
>>> I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be
>>> interactive and helpful, rather than simply passive. (And I believe
>>> it can be done in a way that makes both experts and novices happy.)
>>> Perhaps not in the way Genera does it, but my point is -there is
>>> room for improvement-. Today we have gazillions of cycles sitting
>>> idle, displays with millions of pixels and our primary interface to
>>> the CLI is not much more advanced than an ASR 33. (At least we have
>>> lowercase characters.) The CLI itself hasn't really evolved at all
>>> since Unix c. the 70s.
>> Because it simply works. Oh, there have been improvements since the early
>> days, like tab-completion (which is very handy) or programmable
>> completion
>> (which tries to be smart and ends up being very annoying, so I quickly
>> get rid of it where it is installed by default).
>
> Gotcha. The CLI sprang forth from the mind of DMR complete and perfect
> and it is the end-all, be-all of operating system interfaces. Nothing
> can improve upon it (except maybe tab completion).
>

The Bourne shell isn't named for Ritchie :)

--Toby


From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Dec 17 12:36:35 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:36:35 -0600
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112171816.NAA25860@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
 <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <201112171816.NAA25860@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <201112171848.pBHImQiP083341@billy.ezwind.net>


When I first saw that cap-inside-cap pic, I thought some classic
collector had done that on purpose in order to retain the appearance
of the original cans.  I thought I'd heard of radio collectors doing
that.  Then I saw the value of the cap didn't match.

- John



From schoedel at kw.igs.net  Sat Dec 17 12:48:26 2011
From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:48:26 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re:  Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>

At 10:32 am -0800 2011/12/17, Josh Dersch wrote:
>(quick question -- how often in a given week do you run "rm *" ?  How
>much longer would it take you to append "-y" to those invocations?)

How much longer would it take to 'fix' all the scripts that use rm, and how
much longer would it take to clean up after the damage caused by the bugs
introduced? Unix commands are part of a programming system; standalone
interactive use is a minority use case. If you want a new command, write a
new command. You can even call it "del".

-- 
Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 12:50:58 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:50:58 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
 possible?
In-Reply-To: <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 12:51 PM, John Foust wrote:
> At 11:06 AM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> What an astonishingly inefficient process. It's much harder to get non-renewable materials out of unmarked landfills with random contents than it was to get them out of the earth in the first place. Why. Not. Recycle. Properly.
>
>
> Usually because people don't want to pay to make it easy to recycle.
>
> Although mining landfills sounds like fun, I can't help but think that

But it *doesn't* sound like fun! It sounds like the worst possible way 
to do things.

1) first find the landfill
2) what's in it? usually nothing of interest
3) ugh, imagine what you'd have to wade throug to find any recyclable metal
...


> they'll run into things they wish they hadn't found, and then will be
> asked to clean up those old messes, too.

Yes. So you'd have to be prepared in advance for every kind of toxic 
event. Expensive, slow and difficult.

 >  A landfill from the 1990s
> is a different beast compared to a "dump" in the 1940s.  I might want
> to go mining for tantalum and gold, but I might still dig into an
> acre of paint residues.
>
> Speaking of bursting electrolytics, hasn't anyone developed a quick
> test to detect the ones with the chemicals?  When it first started
> happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
> gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe.  Now it
> sounds like it's done as a cost savings.

It looks to me like these are just very cheap (= poorly made) parts, 
combined with inattention to things like thermal design. But since the 
designer benefits from all this corner-cutting, we have the status quo.

--Toby

>
> - John
>
>



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec 17 12:59:06 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:59:06 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Mouse wrote:

> >>> [...] Unix never ever decided what to do with a file by its
> >>> extension but t does by its magic number [...]
> >> Unix traditionally *doesn't* do that either.
> > How do you think an unix shell is starting an excecutable file and
> > trough wich mechanism it knows what todo with an perl script, an
> > shell script, an C-shell scipt, and different kinds of executable
> > binary formats?  It looks in the file for its header and is starting
> > the correct command interpreter for running that file or set up the
> > environment for executing a binary executable.
> 
> > In unix a shell is doing this,
> 
> Actually, in the Unices I know well enough to know where that is done,
> it's the kernel that does that, not the shell.

Yes, the shell is doing this trough the system calls. The mechanism is only
existent once in the system but the system call is not using any naming
conventions of file extensions to do this.
> 
> As for the whole "determine what to do based on content" idea, it's a
> reasonable default, but it really needs to be overridable.  To pick the
> example that coems to mind most readily, I have not infrequently wanted
> to take a file and print it twice, once treating it as text and once
> treating it as PostScript code.  (PostScript code can be, and often is,
> plain text.)
> 
> I usually have to end up running it through a text-to-PS filter because
> the printing subsystem insists on treating everything that looks enough
> like PostScript as PostScript. :(

Oh man. Could you please take a look to the print filters in the printing
system? This again has nothing todo wit unix as such.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sat Dec 17 13:01:44 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:01:44 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <4EECCBC8.3010905@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EECCBC8.3010905@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111217190144.GE36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Toby Thain wrote:

> On 17/12/11 11:13 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >Toby Thain wrote:
> >
> >>On 16/12/11 11:43 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >>>Cameron Kaiser wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>Extensions are extensions. All the above is just interpretation. File
> >>>>>association is not rocket science (though it's been reinvented too many
> >>>>>times). The interesting exception is classic MacOS with its 
> >>>>>type/creator
> >>>>>codes independent of extension (and where extensions were initially
> >>>>>absent, though like Unix, supported as part of the file name).
> >>>>
> >>>>I have always loved type/creator codes, and was very unhappy with Apple
> >>>>for
> >>>>removing them in 10.6 (but I'm 10.4 forever, so I guess it's not really 
> >>>>my
> >>>>concern).
> >>>>
> >>>>The gap was that the core OS did not provide an easy way to manipulate
> >>>>this
> >>>>consistently, requiring a cavalcade of minitools (or a trip to ResEdit) 
> >>>>to
> >>>>set them the way you wanted. But I loved being able to force certain
> >>>>files to
> >>>>automatically open in different apps if I wanted to, and at least for a
> >>>>time
> >>>>OS X gave you the choice.
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>------------------------------------ personal:
> >>>>http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
> >>>>   Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
> >>>>   ckaiser at floodgap.com
> >>>>-- Nothing recedes like success. -- Walter Winchell
> >>>>---------------------------
> >>>
> >>>OS X is not Unix in this case and Unix never ever decided what to do 
> >>>with a
> >>>file by its extension but t does by its magic number (look for 
> >>>/etc/magic).
> >>
> >>Unix traditionally *doesn't* do that either.
> >
> >How do you think an unix shell is starting an excecutable file and trough
> >wich mechanism it knows what todo with an perl script, an shell script, an
> >C-shell scipt, and different kinds of executable binary formats?
> >It looks in the file for its header and is starting the correct command
> >interpreter for running that file or set up the environment for executing a
> >binary executable.
> >
> >In unix a shell is doing this, so the guy above with it's CP/M hint is
> >really right here.
> 
> You are right about that mechanism in shell, for executables.
> 
> But I was thinking about user files. There's no corresponding mechanism 
> in traditional non-GUI Unix (GUIs usually add one).
> 
> >
> >>
> >>Automatic file associations are a post-GUI idea, in general, to my
> >>recollection. Traditionally in Unix you can apply any program to any
> >>file. It may or may not sniff! It may or may not crash. etc. :)
> >>
> >>It is pretty hard on the traditional Unix command line to say: "open
> >>this file with whatever program can deal with it". [OS X has such a
> >>command; I think GNOME does; but again: post-GUI.]
> >>
> >>(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're 
> >>suggesting.)
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>BTW:
> >>>touch what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
> >>>$ ls -l what*
> >>>-rw-r--r--  1 holm  holm  0 16 Dez 17:40
> >>>what.the.heck.for.an.ext.tension.do.you.mean.?
> >>>$ rm what*
> >>>$
> >>
> >>I'm not sure what this is meant to illustrate?
> >
> >Where is the file extension of this file and which one is to be used for
> >that what you want?
> >
> >Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> >represents. An Handler in the OS or one of the user shells (if Gui or not)
> >could decide this way what todo with it regarding the capabilities that the
> >concrete environment actually has.
> 
> Yes, that more-or-less happens in those cases (GUIs and executables run 
> from shell).
> 
> But it *doesn't* happen elsewhere in Unix (e.g. for non-executable files).
> 
> --T
> 
> >
> >This is exactly what the /etc/magic mechanism is doing.
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Holm

...and how you think thats done in Windoze? Ever tried to execute an .tex
or an .dvi file?

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 13:04:34 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:04:34 -0500
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 52
In-Reply-To: <1324147230.90770.YahooMailRC@web82406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1324147230.90770.YahooMailRC@web82406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EECE7C2.8010909@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 1:40 PM, spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote:
> ...When it first started
> happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
> gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe...
>
> at the time I heard 3 guys from the factory got together and stole 3 parts of
> the formula from a tiawanese factory and defected to mainland china for a $1M
> bounty. But they didn't know of a 4th part; the corrosion inhibitor. Without the
> 4th part the caps were supposed to little time bombs, slowly eating away at
> their aluminum cases. I do know I woke up one night after having a dream of
> popcorn popping only to find a ATX p/s with caps going off like popcorn in the
> room next door. I unplugged the PC and put it in the bath tub and went back to
> sleep. Changed out the p/s the next day and it worked fine.
>

Right, but the problem I'm talking about is the systemic crime, not some 
particular heist. Same kind of mentality and people is responsible, though.

--T


From robert at irrelevant.com  Sat Dec 17 13:05:51 2011
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:05:51 +0000
Subject: Tandy Videotex and Office Information System
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmRfGVwfsaFva0Oc2JH5h7vLy-Vvrw1FW9Y6ypFer1uSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAApARtv8_E33eXuF7Go5hb=mwAFJ5Hirett+cJ_qFf8fxP=62Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgtmRfGVwfsaFva0Oc2JH5h7vLy-Vvrw1FW9Y6ypFer1uSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAApARtvS--DPMwgx7Gwnc5n2K55Kx6Q8W_0OgYi0LRWwvJ3EKA@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2011 18:42, Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> wrote:
>> too expensive for me! ? oh, I also run www.videdata.org.uk. (Hi Tony!)
>
> spelling of the url or its broke ?
>
> Dave Caroline (had his finger in the uk videotex pie)
>

Sigh... I'm tired!!  http://www.viewdata.org.uk/
(must try and find some time to get my major update finished off...)



From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Dec 17 13:14:05 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:14:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]> from Kevin Schoedel at
 "Dec 17, 11 01:48:26 pm"
Message-ID: <201112171914.pBHJE5H6005120@floodgap.com>

> How much longer would it take to 'fix' all the scripts that use rm, and how
> much longer would it take to clean up after the damage caused by the bugs
> introduced? Unix commands are part of a programming system; standalone
> interactive use is a minority use case. If you want a new command, write a
> new command. You can even call it "del".

Dibs on ERA.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- FORTUNE: Today is an excellent day to have a totally rotten day. -----------


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 13:21:39 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 11:21:39 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu> <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
Message-ID: <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/17/2011 10:48 AM, Kevin Schoedel wrote:
> At 10:32 am -0800 2011/12/17, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> (quick question -- how often in a given week do you run "rm *" ?  How
>> much longer would it take you to append "-y" to those invocations?)
> How much longer would it take to 'fix' all the scripts that use rm, and how
> much longer would it take to clean up after the damage caused by the bugs
> introduced? Unix commands are part of a programming system; standalone
> interactive use is a minority use case. If you want a new command, write a
> new command. You can even call it "del".

Well, that and the fact that getting "rm" (or del) to behave the way I 
suggest actually requires low-level changes to the shell's wildcard 
expansion (*and* thus would require a change to all all tools) mean 
it'll never work.

I'm aware of this.  I started out suggesting things I'd fix in a perfect 
world -- my hypothesis was "it's possible to make a user-friendly CLI 
that helps both novices and experts" and I used the 
earlier-bandied-about "rm *" issue as one thing that could be improved 
upon.  I don't think Unix can realistically be fixed in this regard -- 
as you've stated (and I also stated in an earlier mail) the backwards 
compatibility problems are insurmountable.

- Josh



From dm561 at torfree.net  Sat Dec 17 13:19:23 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:19:23 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <ACBB62823CC84827929DFF78ED3B8149@vl420mt>

---- Original Message:
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 10:18:55 -0500
From: "TeoZ" <teoz at neo.rr.com>

> Before ewaste was cheaper to ship overseas I am sure quite a bit of it
> ended up in US landfills. Sooner or later those landfills will be dug up
> and recycled since it will be cheaper then digging 5 miles into the earth
> looking for it, plus anything currently junked will go straight to be
> recycled and reused.

Your optimism is truly refreshing!

m






From dm561 at torfree.net  Sat Dec 17 13:20:14 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:20:14 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>

---- Original message:
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>

> Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> represents.

Why?

What is so terribly wrong with using the file's _name_ to describe the type
of data a file represents, so that those "humans" that you seem to disdain
elsewhere can also know and work with its type, not just the computer?

Always sad to see that in a community one would expect to be eager and open
to explore different and perhaps even better ways of doing things, this
sort of discussion so often is mostly just defending the status quo and
_arguing_ over DOS *versus* UNIX, Win vs. Linux, Apple vs. PC etc., even
sometimes to the point of insulting and name-calling, not to mention the
all-pervasive disdain and contempt for those unwashed [L]users 'out there'
whom all this is ultimately actually for and who indirectly pay most of our
salaries.

We are all in the same business/hobby after all and surely there are better
ways to spend our precious time...

But alas, it has ever been thus...

BTW, I think this quote from Ritchie himself sums it up perfectly:
"Unix is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."

m



From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Dec 17 13:38:40 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:38:40 -0600
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
 <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>

At 12:50 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>But it *doesn't* sound like fun! It sounds like the worst possible way to do things.
>1) first find the landfill
>2) what's in it? usually nothing of interest
>3) ugh, imagine what you'd have to wade throug to find any recyclable metal

As evidenced by what we see in many parts of the world, there are people
who will now do that picking.  Maybe robots will do it more easily and
humanely.  Similarly, your average waste pick-up company (at least here
in the States) is already harvesting as much as is easily picked out
by machine or human.  After all, they're charged to put it in a landfill,
and they're paid to deliver a bundle of cardboard or plastic or scrap iron.

In your average modern anaerobic landfill, they're already harvesting 
the methane from the decomposition of the organics.  When you did hit 
something plastic or metal, you know it is more concentrated than your 
average strip-mine ore.  It might not be what you really wanted to find.
Sure, it would be nifty if we could reduce it all to plasma and sort 
by atomic weight, but I don't think energy will ever be that cheap.

Around here, the scrappers and recyclers are always eager when I tell them
I'm giving away a few big boxes of motherboards and power supplies.

- John



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 13:53:30 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:53:30 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112171914.pBHJE5H6005120@floodgap.com>
References: <201112171914.pBHJE5H6005120@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EECF33A.5070000@neurotica.com>

On 12/17/2011 02:14 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> How much longer would it take to 'fix' all the scripts that use rm, and how
>> much longer would it take to clean up after the damage caused by the bugs
>> introduced? Unix commands are part of a programming system; standalone
>> interactive use is a minority use case. If you want a new command, write a
>> new command. You can even call it "del".
>
> Dibs on ERA.

   ROFL!  Nicely done.

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 13:58:14 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:58:14 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <p06210204cb1293200822@192.168.0.16>
 <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <CANij+de+E-ooR9OhHOxQ=BsEPo-u40ZcnHAxnfbB43NzLxAooA@mail.gmail.com>

> the backwards compatibility problems are insurmountable.

No, the attitudes are insurmountable.

--
Will


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 14:16:37 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:16:37 -0500
Subject: Classic Picture
In-Reply-To: <4EEC6C2F.6030206@update.uu.se>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
 <4EEC5564.8080202@update.uu.se>
 <CE103ADE-974F-43EE-A5B1-8895D7F17904@neurotica.com>
 <4EEC6C2F.6030206@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <4EECF8A5.5090908@neurotica.com>

On 12/17/2011 05:17 AM, Pontus wrote:
>>> Neat. I guess those are PDP-11/34 ? It could be 8/a but i looks like
>>> he is standing in front of a set of RK drives.
>> One can certainly put an RK8E in a PDP-8/a. In betting they're 11/34s
>> though.
>>
>> -Dave
>>
>
> Ah, a bit ambiguous of me, I should have said RK07 which is what I meant.

   OH!!  I just went back and looked; I had initially only looked at the 
racks behind the guy, I didn't see the RK07s he was leaning on.

   Yes, given RK07s and the looks of the spooler burst pages on the 
printouts he's looking at, I'd guess RSX-11, or possibly RSTS/E.

   And now looking closer (I looked at the pic on my cell phone 
yesterday) the front panel on the right is definitely that of an 11/34. 
  Technically it could also be an 11/04 but it'd be almost pointless to 
put that much mass storage on an 11/04 in a business application.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 14:24:20 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 12:24:20 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <CANij+de+E-ooR9OhHOxQ=BsEPo-u40ZcnHAxnfbB43NzLxAooA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu> <p06210204cb1293200822@192.168.0.16>
 <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
 <CANij+de+E-ooR9OhHOxQ=BsEPo-u40ZcnHAxnfbB43NzLxAooA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EECFA74.8010908@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/17/2011 11:58 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>> the backwards compatibility problems are insurmountable.
> No, the attitudes are insurmountable.

That's a form of "backwards (in)compatibility" :)

- Josh


>
> --
> Will
>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 14:34:21 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:34:21 -0500
Subject: Oscillators, was Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading
 w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C6116F6@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C6116F6@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <4EECFCCD.5060703@neurotica.com>

On 12/15/2011 06:37 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
>>>> On the other, I'm considering an AGC circuit that doesn't use a
>>>> bulb, but instead uses a FET as a variable resistor, and trying
>>>> to figure out where it's got anything nonlinear in it (assuming
>>>> the amplifier is running class A).
>>>
>>> Jim Williams (RIP) did a LOT of research on this.  The bulb
>>> outperformed the FET by a gigantic margin. (just sayin'..)
>
>> I thoguht in the end he amanged ot get the FET cirucit to be better
>> than the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't
>> worth it).
>
> Good reference: AN-43:
> http://cds.linear.com/docs/Application%20Note/an43f.pdf

   Good heavens, I'd forgotten all about that appnote, and there it was 
sitting in my archives.  I really need to get cracking on this document 
management and indexing system.  The biological one I've been using 
isn't working very well.

> I'm sure Jim Williams thought it was worth it and I really enjoyed
> reading about it so it was worth it to me for sure :-)

   Oh yes. :-)

> A highlight was Note 5: "What else should be expected when trying to
> replace a single light bulb with a bunch of electronic components? I
> can hear Figure 39?s #327  lamp laughing."

   :-)

> I had previously met Sir Denys Wilkinson and he had mentioned
> something to me about his pioneering days in nuclear instrumentation
> (including pinball machine multichannel analyzers). When he had told
> me that he had invented the D/A converter I didn't really believe him
> but kinda nodded along. Then I read it in Jim Williams' application
> note - with an actual reference - I felt a little sheepish in
> retrospect!

   Oops!!

                    -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 14:38:34 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:38:34 -0500
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4EEAD4C9.6070108@mail.msu.edu>
References: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E37@mail.bensene.com>
 <4EEAD4C9.6070108@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EECFDCA.2060504@neurotica.com>

On 12/16/2011 12:19 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Well, the auction's ended, so it looks like someone must have picked it
> up. Hope it went to a good home...

   I got it.  He sold it to me for a song.  I will be picking it up soon 
and will provide a full report and pics.

   I'm going to try to track down the Flexo that went with this machine. 
  I don't hold out much hope there, but I will try.

   Anyone wishing to go over it in person is welcome to come here to do so.

   (that applies to everything I have here of course, even though the 
actual museum probably won't be open to the public for at least a year)

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 12:36:59 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:36:59 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EEBD09D.6080403@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 16,
 11 06:13:33 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rbz89-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/16/2011 05:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> >>> I thoguht in the end he managed to get the FET circuit to be better than
> >>> the light bulb, but it took a lot of work (and probably wasn't worth it).
> >>
> >>     No.  His initial attempt with a FET didn't perform all that well (if
> >> memory serves), but in the end his very complex circuit with (I think)
> >> three high-end opamps and an LED-driven photocell did end up
> >> outperforming the incandescent lamp design.
> >
> > Isn't that basically what I said?
> 
>    Nope.  His final circuit didn't use the FET.

Ah yes, of course. I guess the fact that the channel reisstance of a FET 
is not quite constant casued enough distortion to make it worse than the 
good old filament lamp.

> 
> > I didn't; realise he used an LED + LDR in the cirucit. It's a long time
> > sinc eI read the book, so I must have forgotten that. I'd sort-of assumed
> > it used only purely electronic (as opposed to optoelectornic) parts
> 
>    Yup.  Those Vactrol analog optoisolators sure are neat.

I rememebr reading about a Mullard (Philips) device that consisted of a 
filament and a numbero LDRs in a B(A-baed bottle (about the size of an 
ECC83/12AX7). I think the number was RPY13. It appears to have been a 
predecessor of the optoisolator. I've never seen one.

What do they use for LDRs nowadays? cThe ones I used were cadmium 
sulphide (CdS), but I beleive cadmium is frowned upon now :-(

>    Don't bother; I've already found it.  It's "Troubleshooting Analog 
> Circuits", ISBN 0750694998.

THat sounds right.

> 
> > [1] I don't necessarily agree with everything they write, but it's all
> > worth reading. To be abvle to disagree with it you have to understand it,
> > and you'll learn a lot by so doing...
> 
>    That's good thinking.

There arew very few people (if any) that I totally agree with. Ofte nit's 
a matter of personal preference ('I prefer to think of it that way / 
design it using that device / etc). One of my criteria for a book that's 
worth redading, therefore, is not 'Do I agree with everything in it' 
(actually, if I did, I'd probalby not consider that book to be worth 
reading because I already know it), but rather 'Does this book make me 
think about what I am doing and analyse the design (or whatever) more 
carefully' If it does, it's werth reading.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 14:23:14 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:23:14 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Dec
 16, 11 08:52:50 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> >> Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
> >> electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
> >> few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
> 
> Not really true. There is apparently little attention to thermal design 
> or component quality. Ergo: Built-in obsolescence. If we ask "who 

I reas really suprised earlier today. I have a very cheap small, (5.5" 
CRT) B&W protable TV/monitor that I use on my workbench for displayiug 
the output of home computers, etc. It's handy becuase it's so small. 

Anyway, althoug it was very cheap, it's not too badly made. I am not 
suggesting it's like a Barco. but at least all the component positons are 
labelled _on both sides of the PCB_. Connections and presets are 
labelled, that sort of thing. The only thoign I didn;'t like was that the 
components were not 'formed' nicely, they had long wires, not fitted down 
to the PCB (I know, of course, that it's a good idea to space components 
that disipate a lot of power off the PCB, but not things like disc 
ceramic capacitors). 

Anyway, today I had to crack open the wall-wart that powers it, a simple 
13.5V (nominal) thing. Crack open being right, it's gleud together. 
Anyway, I had 2 suprised : 

1) The trnasformer hs an internal thermal fuse in series with the primary 
-- this thing is safer than a lot of wall warts out there

2) The smoothing capacitor in the wall wart (which is a linear thing, 
tranformer + bridge rectifier + smoothing capacitor) was labeled 105 
degreeC. Better than I'd have expected.

On the other hanmd they saved all of a penny by not fitting a bleeder 
resistor, for all there's space on the wall wart PCB for one. I've 
remedieed this...

> benefits?" we get a useful answer, too.
> 
> >> Ben.
> >>
> >
> > So we all now have no problems with that, or what?
> 
> I have a big problem with it!!!

As do I/ I also have a problem wit h the fact that many of the so-clled 
'green' measures do more harm than good. For example leded solderwould 
not be a polution problem if things werer repaired, and thus didn't go to 
landfill until they were at least 50 years old...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 13:58:26 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 19:58:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: D/As,
In-Reply-To: <4EEBD28A.2030909@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 16,
 11 06:21:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rc0Or-000J48C@p850ug1>

> > In one of my old books on electric lighting they suggest lighting a large
> > room by 15 light bulbs in a 3*5 array o nthe ceiling and controllign them
> > by 4 switches, thus giving 15 levels of illumination (I guess 'all off'
> > is not illumination :-)). THye even give the best way to arrange the
> > light bubls controleld by each switch, so as to get fairly evnn
> > illumination in all cases. I consdier that ot be a D-A.
> 
>    With the combination of the room and your eyeballs acting as a 
> (spatial) low-pass filter? ;)

I've found it. The book is 'Bennnett College : "Electricity" '. Bennett 
College was a corresondence college based in Sheffield. The appropriate 
bit is as follows : 

'Another arrangement, suitable for very large drawing-rooms, or for 
restaurants, halles, schoolrooms, etc is indicated in Fig 201. The whole 
odf the lightig is controlled by two "Twinob" switches the ha;ves of whic 
hare numbered 2 and 4 and 1 and 8 respectively. Therse numbers show which 
of the numbered circles representing lamps, or groups of lamps, are 
controlled by them. Thuys when the half of the No 2 swithc marekd 1 is 
put on, the lamp market 1 (in what we nay take to be the centre of the 
ceiling) is lighted. When the 2 half of No 1 switch is put on, the 2 
lamps marked 2 at each end of the room are lighted up..."

This is a simplified vesion of Fig 201, showing the lamp positones, but 
not the wiring (which is obbious!) :

  (8)  (4)  (8)  (4)  (8)
  (2)  (8)  (1)  (8)  (2)
  (8)  (4)  (8)  (4)  (8)

" There are two ponts about this arragement that should be noted. 

Firstly, whichecer half or halves of the swtichs are put on, the lighting 
will be symmetircal. Thus one is in the centre, the twos are in line, one 
at each end of the room, and 1nad 2 together form a line down the centre. 
The fours form a square and the eights a sort of rectangle. The one anf 
d the fours make a start, and the one, twos, adn foues an elongated star, 
and so on. This arrangement of lights points ot the necessity of securing 
synmmetry in similar groupings. 

Secondly the arragment provides for no less that 15 degrees of light as 
tablulated below."

I refuse to type out the table, everybody here knows what it will say. 

A 'Twinob' switch was simply 2 toggle switches on one base, with 2 
actuators (Twin Knob -? 'Twinob'). Nothing electrically odd about it.

I can't find a copyright dae in the book unfortunately. I would think 
it's pre World War 2, though.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 14:25:38 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:25:38 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Toaster analogy (Was: learning burnout (was: Mac/Mac
In-Reply-To: <4EEBAA8F.18592.264E379@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 16, 11 08:31:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rc0pA-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> But on high-tech gear, yes, you're right--attempting to repair most 
> failures in them is frustrating and a waste of time.

It seems to me that there are 2 courses of action, both of which involve 
frustration :-(

1) Stick ot the old stuff, keep it going, but be frustrated that you 
can't (alwyas) do what people with the modern things do

2) Get the modern stuff, and be frustrated when it breaks and you can't 
fix it.

For me, (1) is less frustrating than (2). I susepct I am in the minority...

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 14:29:04 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:29:04 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111216205124.L18703@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Dec 16,
 11 08:55:50 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rc0sV-000J4PC@p850ug1>

> 
> > > I did poke wires into the cassette 5 pin DIN
> On Fri, 16 Dec 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
> > You mean you didn't buy the ofifical cable (the one that IBM wanted you
> > to buy for hte 5150)? I must have a fair number of those around.
> 
> Couldn't get it separately until months later.

Are you sure? It may bot have been a stock item, but surely it was 
avaialbe as a psare for the Model 1 from National Parts?

Incidentlasly, somwwhere I have a 3rd paerty versio nof that cable. Not a 
Radio Shack one, or one suppleid with the Dragon machines (which IIRC use 
the same cassette cable). I wonder waht it was designed for?

> Around here, IBM didn't sell that cable!

Did they ever? I thought IBM told you to go down to the nearest Radio 
Shack and buy a cable.
 
> 
> 26-1401?    (Or was that my highschool gym locker?)

THat's the one.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 14:30:42 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:30:42 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EEC23EB.5090806@tx.rr.com> from "Charlie Carothers" at Dec 16,
 11 11:08:59 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rc0u5-000J4SC@p850ug1>

> That's very cool!  I can't help imagining the switches sitting side by 
> side on the wall with 8, 4, 2, and 1 labels above them.  (Set the 
> lighting to level 11, please.  That's rather bright, could we try level 


For some reason the book suggests usinf a pair of double switches and 
numbering them in the order 2 4 1 8. I cna't think of any good reason for 
this...

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 14:33:19 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:33:19 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112170540.AAA16517@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 17, 11 00:40:19 am
Message-ID: <m1Rc0wd-000J4TC@p850ug1>

> 
> >>> It is clear form this that any aplifier iwth any form of AGC is not
> >>> linear.
> >> Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in
> >> the FET-based version.  [...]
> > Any amplifierr with AGC, n matter how it's designed, is non-linear.
> 
> Right.  What's puzzling me is where the nonlinearity comes from in the
> FET-based version.

I dont think it comes from any one component, but from how they're arranged.

Rather like the fact that a spring (ideally)( has a linear 
force-extension chracteristc, but you ac anrrange it in a linkage which 
adds positive feedback to make the quick make break action of a toggle 
switch.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 17 14:07:03 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:07:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: rm * .o - Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file
In-Reply-To: <4EEBF2F6.2060009@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Dec
 16, 11 08:40:06 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rc0XC-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> 
> On 16/12/11 12:53 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> > ... Remember that the next time you type "rm * .o"
> > instead of "rm *.o" by mistake. :)
> >
> > (Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)
> 
> Well, I'm probably not a 'guru', but I've certainly made THAT particular 
> typo once that I recall. :)

There is a probably apocryphal story (I think in the Jargon File) about 
one of the lisp machine OSes which had  a DWIM 'feature'. Said OS also 
saved the origianl file when editing in a file of the same bame with a 
'$' appeneded to it. Apparently somebody wanted to clean up their files 
by deleting all such backup files and typed del *$ (or whatever the 
delete command was called). Unfortunately there were no backup files and 
DWIM helpfuflly came back with 'cannot finds *$, assuming you meant *' 
and started deleting all his files. 

-tony


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 15:10:24 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:10:24 -0500
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers - Re: Cheap Chinese
 electrolytics - a plague
In-Reply-To: <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 2:38 PM, John Foust wrote:
> At 12:50 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> But it *doesn't* sound like fun! It sounds like the worst possible way to do things.
>> 1) first find the landfill
>> 2) what's in it? usually nothing of interest
>> 3) ugh, imagine what you'd have to wade throug to find any recyclable metal
>
> As evidenced by what we see in many parts of the world, there are people
> who will now do that picking.

That's before it gets into a landfill. I'm referring to the insanity of 
digging it up later when we run out of extractive materials. (Even 
artificially, as in the example of China now controlling nearly all rare 
earth resources.)

 > Maybe robots will do it more easily and
> humanely.  Similarly, your average waste pick-up company (at least here
> in the States) is already harvesting as much as is easily picked out
> by machine or human.  After all, they're charged to put it in a landfill,
> and they're paid to deliver a bundle of cardboard or plastic or scrap iron.
>
> In your average modern anaerobic landfill, they're already harvesting
> the methane from the decomposition of the organics.  When you did hit
> something plastic or metal, you know it is more concentrated than your
> average strip-mine ore.  It might not be what you really wanted to find.
> Sure, it would be nifty if we could reduce it all to plasma and sort
> by atomic weight, but I don't think energy will ever be that cheap.
>
> Around here, the scrappers and recyclers are always eager when I tell them
> I'm giving away a few big boxes of motherboards and power supplies.

Again, that's pre-landfill, and relatively efficient.

But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who 
are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in 
landfill by default? That's the unsolved part. Commodity prices may have 
changed scrapper behaviour but haven't changed household behaviour yet.

About 60-70% of our household waste by volume goes into a recycling 
pickup. I don't know what happens to it after that, but I am betting 
that this percentage is higher than most of North America. At work, we 
have an e-waste pickup. Unfortunately 90% (or more, I guess) of what is 
dumped there is still serviceable (a whole other topic).

--T

>
> - John
>
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 17 15:12:04 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:12:04 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111217190144.GE36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EECCBC8.3010905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217190144.GE36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EED05A4.4080306@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 2:01 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> ...
> ...and how you think thats done in Windoze? Ever tried to execute an .tex
> or an .dvi file?

I know GUIs implement automatic associations for user files, but the 
topic was what non-GUI Unix does. (i.e. Nothing.)

--T


>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 15:13:44 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:13:44 -0500
Subject: Mouse's parts stocks, was Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup
 reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <201112150039.TAA03776@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RawiP-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112150039.TAA03776@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EED0608.3010002@neurotica.com>

On 12/14/2011 07:39 PM, Mouse wrote:
> I wouldn't, though, call my parts stock a "junk box"; that conjures up
> images of a container with an unsorted mishmash of salvaged parts all
> dumped in it together, and most of my parts are not salvaged scrap and
> are not all jumbled together.

   I don't think Tony meant any insult here.  Anybody who has been doing 
electronics stuff for more than about a week typically has such a box 
(in my case it's dozens of large plastic crates), and people who are 
more serious about it, myself include, ALSO have "parts stocks" as you 
describe.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From billdeg at degnanco.com  Sat Dec 17 15:24:46 2011
From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:24:46 -0500
Subject: Classic Picture (PDP 11/x Newspaper Printing System)
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1324144809.16826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1324144809.16826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <201112172125.pBHLP3T6085787@billy.ezwind.net>


>
>
>I was looking on ebay at pictures of Balltimore.  Lo and behold I saw
>something the Classic Computer folks would appreciate.
>
>See ebay item 260916992297
>
>It is a picture of an actor, but who cares, it's the background that
>caught my eye.

We just rescued a system just like this from another news paper, this 
one in central New Jersey.
A  gentleman somehow affiliated with the paper had been holding onto 
it all these years.  It's presently at our museum in Wall, NJ 
(Mid-Atlantic Retro).  I don't know if anyone from our group took any 
photos, but many of the same components.

Bill 




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 15:33:19 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:33:19 -0500
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <m1Rbz89-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rbz89-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EED0A9F.3060803@neurotica.com>

On 12/17/2011 01:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> I rememebr reading about a Mullard (Philips) device that consisted of a
> filament and a numbero LDRs in a B(A-baed bottle (about the size of an
> ECC83/12AX7). I think the number was RPY13. It appears to have been a
> predecessor of the optoisolator. I've never seen one.

   Oh wow, that sounds like fun!

> What do they use for LDRs nowadays? cThe ones I used were cadmium
> sulphide (CdS), but I beleive cadmium is frowned upon now :-(

   It may be, but CdS cells abound, and I don't see them going away 
anytime soon.  There's so little cadmium in them that I really don't see 
it ever being a problem.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com  Sat Dec 17 15:34:22 2011
From: spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com (spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 13:34:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <1324157662.99694.YahooMailRC@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

From: John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
    converter possible?
Message-ID: <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368 at billy.ezwind.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:

..."When it first started
happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe..."


at the time I heard 3 guys from the factory got together and stole 3  parts of 
the formula from a tiawanese factory and defected to mainland  china for a $1M 
bounty. But they didn't know of a 4th part; the  corrosion inhibitor. Without 
the 4th part the caps were supposed to  little time bombs, slowly eating away at 
their aluminum cases. I do know  I woke up one night after having a dream of 
popcorn popping only to  find a ATX p/s with caps going off like popcorn in the 
room next door. I  unplugged the PC and put it in the bath tub and went back to 
sleep.  Changed out the p/s the next day and it worked fine.


________________________________

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 15:54:17 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:54:17 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com> <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <201112172154.QAA28569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> The other side of the argument was DEC licenses VMS and with that
> purchase you got a wall of documentation.

Some of it was even correct!

Okay, that's unfair.  DEC documentation was actually quite good, at
least back in the '80s when I worked with DEC-produced doc.  Sometimes
it even called out where things were specifically undefined, which I
wish more interface specs these days did.

But I was responsible for our lab generating something like five SPRs
(that's what DEC called bug reports in those days) and the only one we
ever got any response at all to was one which was my own mistake.  As
an example of one of the others, I created an extensive patch to add
line editing to DCL.  It broke PATCH; I had to split it into two
patches, and linking them together was..awkward.  We submitted an SPR
about this undocumented limit in PATCH.  (I could patch DCL because we
had source...on microfiche.  I spent about a week poring over the
'fiche and constructing that patch.)

Never heard a word back about that bug.  Not even a FITNR or a "this is
actually a doc bug, the limit should be documented".

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 15:58:28 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:58:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re:  Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
Message-ID: <201112172158.QAA28635@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> (quick question -- how often in a given week do you run "rm *" ?
>> How much longer would it take you to append "-y" to those
>> invocations?)

> How much longer would it take to 'fix' all the scripts that use rm,
> and how much longer would it take to clean up after the damage caused
> by the bugs introduced?

This is a good reason - much better than anyone's personal preference -
to make it an option that defaults off but can be added for interactive
use through a shell alias (the option I, admittedly rather frivolously,
called -warn-about-* upthread).

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 16:07:21 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:07:21 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> How do you think an unix shell is starting an excecutable file and
>>> trough wich mechanism it knows what todo with an perl script, an
>>> shell script, an C-shell scipt, [...]

>>> In unix a shell is doing this,

>> Actually, in the Unices I know well enough to know where that is
>> done, it's the kernel that does that, not the shell.

> Yes, the shell is doing this trough the system calls.

No, I mean the kernel is doing it inside execve().  On the Unices I
know well enough to talk about in this regard, recognition of #!, of
ELF vs a.out vs whatever, etc, is done entirely in the kernel as part
of execing the executable.  The shell is totally out of the loop.

> [...] but the system call is not using any naming conventions of file
> extensions to do this.

True.  It's entirely driven off file contents.  I don't know of any OS
where execve() pays any attention to what's in the pathname beyond
handing it to the filesystem layer to locate the relevant file.

>> I usually have to end up running it through a text-to-PS filter
>> because the printing subsystem insists on treating everything that
>> looks enough like PostScript as PostScript. :(
> Oh man.  Could you please take a look to the print filters in the
> printing system?  This again has nothing todo wit unix as such.

It's only code that is maintained as part of the system, shipped as
part of the system, and is the default unless the admin goes to some
minor (or sometimes major) trouble to install something else.

Where do _you_ draw the "this is part of Unix" line?

As for print filters, I hvae yet to find any documented option that
allows me to tell it whether I want to print a particular piece of text
as text or as PostScript code.  (Because the content is exactly
identical, it cannot even in principle tell on its own.)  I haven't run
into this problem on more than a half-dozen systems, though; I don't
print very much, and even less on systems other than my own.  But the
details of the issue are not my point; my point is that the content is
not always enough to tell.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From arcarlini at iee.org  Sat Dec 17 16:14:44 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:14:44 -0000
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <0618434C08C14646AA5A820887678356@ANTONIOPC>

allison [ajp166 at verizon.net] wrote:
> If you took the course you got to see DEC developed drivers in the
> flesh.   Hence NDA.

As a customer I took the internals class(es) - that had more stuff
in than the driver course. I never signed an NDA. I have no idea what
they might have thought they were protecting as the driver listings
were pretty much available on fiche (and, later, on CD).

Antonio



From arcarlini at iee.org  Sat Dec 17 16:21:23 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:21:23 -0000
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <B1F032C752D44CDCBA984A0D68832F89@ANTONIOPC>

Josh Dersch [derschjo at mail.msu.edu] wrote:
> Well, that and the fact that getting "rm" (or del) to behave
> the way I
> suggest actually requires low-level changes to the shell's wildcard
> expansion (*and* thus would require a change to all all tools) mean
> it'll never work. 

You could make the shell look for a variable and not expand bare
wildcards
for programs in that variable.

 export THINGS_THAT_DO_NOT_WANT_BARE_GLOB_EXPANDED=/bin/era

and you are done. Nothing other than your new command would be
affected. If "era" only implemented the new behaviour when
run interactively, you'd have the best of both worlds?


Antonio




From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 16:25:12 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 14:25:12 -0800
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4EECFDCA.2060504@neurotica.com>
References: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E37@mail.bensene.com>
 <4EEAD4C9.6070108@mail.msu.edu> <4EECFDCA.2060504@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EED16C8.10505@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/17/2011 12:38 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/16/2011 12:19 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Well, the auction's ended, so it looks like someone must have picked it
>> up. Hope it went to a good home...
>
>   I got it.  He sold it to me for a song.  I will be picking it up 
> soon and will provide a full report and pics.
>
>   I'm going to try to track down the Flexo that went with this 
> machine.  I don't hold out much hope there, but I will try.
>
>   Anyone wishing to go over it in person is welcome to come here to do 
> so.
>
>   (that applies to everything I have here of course, even though the 
> actual museum probably won't be open to the public for at least a year)

Awesome!  I'd love to see what's inside that thing, can't wait for the 
photos.  And I hope you find the Flexowriter, best of luck...

- Josh

>
>              -Dave
>


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 16:21:21 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 23:21:21 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECDF0B.7080203@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217114350.GC30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECDF0B.7080203@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111217222121.GA31271@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 10:27:23AM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> 
> On 12/17/2011 3:43 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> >>I'm trying to say that I think that a command-line can be
> >>interactive and helpful, rather than simply passive.  (And I believe
> >>it can be done in a way that makes both experts and novices happy.)
> >>Perhaps not in the way Genera does it, but my point is -there is
> >>room for improvement-.  Today we have gazillions of cycles sitting
> >>idle, displays with millions of pixels and our primary interface to
> >>the CLI is not much more advanced than an ASR 33.  (At least we have
> >>lowercase characters.)  The CLI itself hasn't really evolved at all
> >>since Unix c. the 70s.
> >Because it simply works. Oh, there have been improvements since the early
> >days, like tab-completion (which is very handy) or programmable completion
> >(which tries to be smart and ends up being very annoying, so I quickly
> >get rid of it where it is installed by default).
> 
> Gotcha.  The CLI sprang forth from the mind of DMR complete and
> perfect and it is the end-all, be-all of operating system
> interfaces.  Nothing can improve upon it (except maybe tab
> completion).

That's not what I wrote. There are certainly enough other perfectly fine
ways to interact with the OS. Some ways work better for some people than
others. Some people are happy with a GUI only system and - to exaggerate -
abhor the CLI. Some are the other way around then there is plenty of middle
ground.

But if you really want to interact with a Unix system as such and not some
fancy, colorful abstraction layered ontop of it, IMHO there is nothing
better than the shell. 

> >>>>I've literally had people tell me that "oh, accidentally deleting
> >>>>your files is a 'rite of passage'".  I cannot express the level to
> >>>>which I disagree with this idea :).
> >>>I think there is a little truth lurking in it, though.  While it
> >>>doesn't have to take the form of a bad experience with rm, I think that
> >>>learning that Unix is an extremely YAFIYGI system is very important,
> >>>even to the point where it might be fair to call it a rite of passage.
> >>And a rite of passage you'll experience again, and again, and
> >>again... it's the gift that keeps on giving :).
> >Well, some people _are_ capably of learning from past mistakes. Not all
> >people, unfortunately, but some ;-)
> 
> Again, the "real Unix gurus never make mistakes, and screw everyone
> else" mentality.  Gotcha.

Pure unadultered Unix is not for everybody *shrug*. So what? I'm not
aware of people being forced at gun point to use straight Unix machines.
There is plenty of choice: from putting various layers on top of it to
other operating systems. And btw: currently _every_ _day_ people buy
more than half a _million_ devices running Unix (and some abstraction
layer on top of it) and carry them around in their pockets pretty much
whereever they are - and they _like_ it. Yes, I'm speaking of Android ;-)
Of course, almost none of them interacts directly with the Unix running
at the heart of their phones, they interact with a higher level abstraction,
the Android system & user interface.

Kind regards,
            Alex.

-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 16:36:58 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:36:58 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu> <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
 <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <201112172236.RAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Well, that and the fact that getting "rm" (or del) to behave the way
> I suggest actually requires low-level changes to the shell's wildcard
> expansion

Yes.

> (*and* thus would require a change to all all tools)

No.

There is no reason this couldn't be done by expanding wildcards as
normal, but providing some way - which doesn't affect tools that don't
choose to call it - for a program to get hold of its pre-globbing
arglist, if its execer provided one.

Then rm could use the new facility to see if any args were "*", or if
there was only one arg and it's "*", or whatever.  Programs that don't
know about the new way or don't want to muck with it continue to work
the way they always have.  Of course it would need to be designed
carefully so that execers that don't know about it don't break programs
that try to use it, but that's doable.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 16:31:09 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 23:31:09 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112171634.LAA24601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <201112171634.LAA24601@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217223109.GB31271@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:34:46AM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> >> Is it annoying to anyone to either answer "y" to an "Are you sure?"
> >> prompt or type in "rm -y *" to autoconfirm in these few cases?
> 
> > Bad idea, breaks the generic user interface assumption that the
> > machine just goes and does what it is being told instead of nagging
> > you with "are you really sure?" prompts in the default case.
> 
> > Unix standard: the training wheels are off, the user is assumed to
> > know WTF he/she/it is doing.  If you want the training wheels, switch
> > them on explicitly, but don't annoy the experts all the time. ;-)
> 
> There is some truth to this; it would be defensible to instead make rm
> grow a -warn-about-* option (presumably not spelled quite that way :)
> rather than warning by default and having a -don't-warn-about-* option
> (spelled -y in the above strawman).

And how is rm supposed to know which file deletions are ok and which ones
are dangerous? It is just a dumb machine, it can't read your mind ...
 
> > In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already
> > available, just use "rm -i".
> 
> This is completely misunderstanding the point.  rm -i warns about every
> removal, even the completely innocuous ones.  That may be what you
> want, but it's not what we ("we" = "me and, IIUC, Josh") want.  We want
> a mode of operation in which most rm commands do exactly what you say,
> just go off and work, but in the case where the arglist as typed
> contains a bare *, it requires confirmation.

Cannot be done as part of the rm program, impossible for the obvious
reason. What you can do is patch $SHELL_OF_CHOICE to insert some well-
meaning do-what-I-say logic for this case.

> >> [Genera "command-line"]
> > Well, if you want that, just write a shell implementing that.
> 
> This is actually missing much of the point, I think.  It is somewhere
> between difficult and impossible to do that in Unix, because the Unix
> design enforces a fairly hard separation between the shell and the
> commands it runs.  Doing this requires inventing some way to -
> interactively - get information flowing between the shell and the
> command that might be getting run without/before actually pulling the
> trigger on the command in question.  This is a lot easier to do in a
> Lisp world, because everything is in the same Lisp world, so, for
> example, "commands" can be decorated with advice and properties and
> such explaining to the CLI how to do this.
> 
> I'm not sure what tack I'd take to build such a thing in Unix.  But I
> think it is a very productive idea to think about it; even though I
> don't like that style of interaction on a Lisp Machine, the reasons
> apply somewhere between far less and not at all to Unix, and the
> infrastructure necessary to support it in Unix would enable a lot of
> other interesting stuff - unless you do it all as a huge collection of
> special cases in the wrong places, which, in the case of rm, is where
> we came in.

Well, you can still do it the way it probably was done on the Lisp
machines: just build most of the functionality into the command
interpreter and only run external programs when explicitly ordered
to do so ("run firefox", "run gimp").

Kind regards,
          Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 16:47:57 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:47:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Mouse's parts stocks,
 was Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EED0608.3010002@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RawiP-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <201112150039.TAA03776@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EED0608.3010002@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112172247.RAA29343@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I wouldn't, though, call my parts stock a "junk box"; that conjures
>> up images of a container with an unsorted mishmash of salvaged parts
>> all dumped in it together, and most of my parts are not salvaged
>> scrap and are not all jumbled together.
> I don't think Tony meant any insult here.

Then it's probably just as well that I took none. :)

I do have a junk box in something rather like the sense I sketched, but
it's a comparatively small fraction of my parts stock.  Most of the
stuff I have that I would call a junk box is parts still in their
original circuits; the box is labeled "FIX OR STRIP FOR PARTS".  I'm
not doing either at any significant rate. :(

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Dec 17 17:03:26 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:03:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217144904.R2406@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011, Mouse wrote:
> True.  It's entirely driven off file contents.  I don't know of any OS
> where execve() pays any attention to what's in the pathname beyond
> handing it to the filesystem layer to locate the relevant file.

In MS-DOS,
COMMAND.COM compares what was input to the list of internal commands, if
it matches, it executes that;

if no match to internal commands, then it checks current DIRectory for
.COM;
if no .COM, then it checks for .EXE;

if either .COM or .EXE was found, then it IGNORES the extension and looks
for "MZ" as the first two bytes of the file.  If there IS "MZ", then it
processes it as a .EXE file even if the extension is .COM  If there is no
"MZ", then it sets up a PSP etc. copies the content of the file to
location 100h and jumps there.  Thus, the 'M' 'Z' code
sequence can not be used in .COM files.  Stories of the origin of the
choice for "MZ"?  "Mark Zbikowski"?

if neither .COM nor .EXE were found, then it looks for .BAT.  If found,
that is processed as a batch file

if no .COM, .EXE, nor .BAT are found, then it repeats the process in the
next DIRectory of the PATH.

If it exhasusts the PATH with no .COM .EXE .BAT, then it says, "Bad
Command or Filename".

Thus, an internal command can not be replaced by a user program (without
stepping on the COMMAND.COM file), and files named .COM are processed
before files named .EXE. indisunirregardless of whether the .COM V .EXE
structure matches the extension.


> Where do _you_ draw the "this is part of Unix" line?

THAT may be part of the ongoing arguments.



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 17 17:05:37 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:05:37 -0500
Subject: Computyper (friden?) on eBay
In-Reply-To: <4EED16C8.10505@mail.msu.edu>
References: <201112151850.pBFIo0ra029003@billy.ezwind.net>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E37@mail.bensene.com>
 <4EEAD4C9.6070108@mail.msu.edu> <4EECFDCA.2060504@neurotica.com>
 <4EED16C8.10505@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EED2041.7030809@neurotica.com>

On 12/17/2011 05:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>> Well, the auction's ended, so it looks like someone must have picked it
>>> up. Hope it went to a good home...
>>
>> I got it. He sold it to me for a song. I will be picking it up soon
>> and will provide a full report and pics.
>>
>> I'm going to try to track down the Flexo that went with this machine.
>> I don't hold out much hope there, but I will try.
>>
>> Anyone wishing to go over it in person is welcome to come here to do so.
>>
>> (that applies to everything I have here of course, even though the
>> actual museum probably won't be open to the public for at least a year)
>
> Awesome! I'd love to see what's inside that thing, can't wait for the
> photos. And I hope you find the Flexowriter, best of luck...

   Thank you!  I will do my best.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 17:20:09 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 00:20:09 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
 <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111217232008.GD31271@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 11:21:39AM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 12/17/2011 10:48 AM, Kevin Schoedel wrote:
> >At 10:32 am -0800 2011/12/17, Josh Dersch wrote:
> >>(quick question -- how often in a given week do you run "rm *" ?  How
> >>much longer would it take you to append "-y" to those invocations?)
> >How much longer would it take to 'fix' all the scripts that use rm, and how
> >much longer would it take to clean up after the damage caused by the bugs
> >introduced? Unix commands are part of a programming system; standalone
> >interactive use is a minority use case. If you want a new command, write a
> >new command. You can even call it "del".
> 
> Well, that and the fact that getting "rm" (or del) to behave the way
> I suggest actually requires low-level changes to the shell's
> wildcard expansion (*and* thus would require a change to all all
> tools) mean it'll never work.
> 
> I'm aware of this.  I started out suggesting things I'd fix in a
> perfect world -- my hypothesis was "it's possible to make a
> user-friendly CLI that helps both novices and experts" and I used
> the earlier-bandied-about "rm *" issue as one thing that could be
> improved upon.  I don't think Unix can realistically be fixed in
> this regard -- as you've stated (and I also stated in an earlier
> mail) the backwards compatibility problems are insurmountable.

Just write a safe and cuddly shell for novices and call it the i-shell.
The users might associate it with ipad, iphone and other ... "userfriendly"
devices and the experts can quietly snicker at alternative interpretations
of the name.

Unfortunately, the trademark landsharks of a certain fruity company would
probably scuttle such a name ...

SCNR,
   Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 17:16:37 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 00:16:37 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111217231637.GC31271@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 10:32:06AM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> On 12/17/2011 3:33 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> >On Fri, Dec 16, 2011 at 07:22:02PM -0800, Josh Dersch wrote:
> >>Let's start with the "rm *" example.  "rm *" is a particular
> >>invokation of rm that isn't commonly used -- it's an exceptional
> >>case that someone really wants to delete all files in a particular
> >>directory.  Is it annoying to anyone to either answer "y" to an "Are
> >>you sure?" prompt or type in "rm -y *" to autoconfirm in these few
> >>cases?
> >Bad idea, breaks the generic user interface assumption that the machine
> >just goes and does what it is being told instead of nagging you with
> >"are you really sure?" prompts in the default case.
> 
> Yeah, that was kind of the point.  I honestly don't care about
> people's attitude about "nagging" in edge cases and I'm happy to
> change Unix behavior for these cases.

And I don't care about people who want to pad all the sharp corners in the
world with something soft. You are, of course, free to change your system
and offer the changes to others, but I know a lot of people who won't
find many polite words for something like that ;-)

But again, that is the power of Unix systems: it isn't cast in stone
and can accomodate a wide range of needs.

> >Unix standard: the training wheels are off, the user is assumed to know WTF
> >he/she/it is doing. If you want the training wheels, switch them on
> >explicitly, but don't annoy the experts all the time. ;-)
> 
> Again, I disagree with this.  *EVERYONE* gets screwed by this
> behavior from time to time.  "Experts" don't get annoyed "all the
> time" by this (quick question -- how often in a given week do you
> run "rm *" ?

I don't really keep track of stuff like that, but I guess a few times.

>  How much longer would it take you to append "-y" to
> those invocations?)

Too long. And .aliases isn't any help because I work on dozens of systems
a week, usually as root. And those _don't_ get personalized for obvious
reasons.

> >In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already available, just
> >use "rm -i".
> >
> >>  Even if it is slightly more work, think of the tradeoff
> >>that's being made: you're saving every Unix user the pain of
> >>accidentally screwing themselves via a typo -- and just as evidenced
> >>by responses on this list, *everyone* (well, mostly everyone) has
> >>managed to do this at least once or knows someone who has.
> >Live and learn. And pain is a very powerful mnemonic fixative ;-)
> 
> I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm
> talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that
> "real" Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve*
> it.

Of course "real" Unix users make mistakes, because only nobody is perfect
and he is currently on vacation, the lazy bastard. But lulling users into
the belief that everything safe and rounded and padded and they can bang
their head against anything without pain ... bad idea IMHO.

Cue the story of the Linux admins using killall as root on a Solaris box ;-)

>  It's computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm
> concerned...

Hey, no calling names!

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 17 17:40:22 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 15:40:22 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112172236.RAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu> <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
 <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112172236.RAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EED2866.4080303@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/17/2011 2:36 PM, Mouse wrote:
>
>> (*and* thus would require a change to all all tools)
> No.
>
> There is no reason this couldn't be done by expanding wildcards as
> normal, but providing some way - which doesn't affect tools that don't
> choose to call it - for a program to get hold of its pre-globbing
> arglist, if its execer provided one.
>

True, I hadn't looked at it that way.  But it still requires a change to 
all shells that want to be able to work with tools that know about it.  
And it's just to support edge cases like this or to enable features that 
can be hacked up in a line of perl -- it'll probably never happen.

As the philosopher once said: "Good Enough is the enemy of Great."  The 
Unix shell is "good enough."

(And "Worse is Better" (http://www.jwz.org/doc/worse-is-better.htm))

- Josh

>
> /~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>   X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
>


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 17 17:38:30 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 00:38:30 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217233830.GE31271@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 17, 2011 at 05:07:21PM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> 
> As for print filters, I hvae yet to find any documented option that
> allows me to tell it whether I want to print a particular piece of text
> as text or as PostScript code.  (Because the content is exactly
> identical, it cannot even in principle tell on its own.)  I haven't run
> into this problem on more than a half-dozen systems, though; I don't
> print very much, and even less on systems other than my own.  But the
> details of the issue are not my point; my point is that the content is
> not always enough to tell.

The printer queues are only one part of it. You could solve that by
setting up a raw queue, i.e. not filters at all, dump whatever is handed
to lp straight to the printer. However, if you shelled out for a printer
that actually supports PostScript, then the printer will most likely go
"Hey, this is PostScript, I know how to interpret that!" ;-)

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sat Dec 17 17:54:09 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:54:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111217144904.R2406@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217144904.R2406@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201112172354.SAA00421@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I don't know of any OS where execve() pays any attention to what's
>> in the pathname beyond handing it to the filesystem layer to locate
>> the relevant file.
> In MS-DOS,

Seredipity!

I actually meant Unixy OS, and I don't really consider MS-DOS very
Unixy - AIUI it doesn't have multiple processes, for one thing.

But as a result of that mistake, I now know more than I did before
about MS-DOS.  (I'm tempted to say, more than I ever wanted to know,
but such knowledge is never wasted....)  Thank you.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From technobug at comcast.net  Sat Dec 17 18:13:51 2011
From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:51 -0700
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very 	poorly"?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <F1B20069-6603-4886-BD56-388B9E7164E8@comcast.net>

On  Sat, 17 Dec 2011 09:09:20 -0800,  "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> Has anyone here used CENVID--an interpreted C-- type of shell on DOS, 
> OS/2 or NT?  It's in the SIMTEL collection from about 1995 or so.  
> There are 16 bit real, protected and Win32 versions.
> 
> I found it to be quite handy when taking files from other systems 
> with strange names and converting them into something that most 
> DOS/Windows apps would be comfortable with.
> 
> It was sold by Nombas, which seems to have long gone bye-bye.

I remember we used something of that ilk in the late '80s or early '90s to support one of our products. However, specifics have fallen off the rear of the table of my mind.

Currently, I've been using SoftIntegration's "Ch" <http://www.softintegration.com/products/chstandard/>, an interpreted, C-enhanced, scripting language which works quite well across the OSs I use.

	-> CRC

From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Dec 17 18:14:11 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 16:14:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <201112172354.SAA00421@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111217161338.GA36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112171654.LAA24834@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217185906.GD36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <201112172207.RAA28773@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217144904.R2406@shell.lmi.net>
 <201112172354.SAA00421@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111217161202.S2406@shell.lmi.net>

On Sat, 17 Dec 2011, Mouse wrote:
> I actually meant Unixy OS,

I wondered about that, but you DID say "any OS"

> But as a result of that mistake, I now know more than I did before
> about MS-DOS.  (I'm tempted to say, more than I ever wanted to know,
> but such knowledge is never wasted....)  Thank you.

OK, short version with less unwanted info: MS-DOS provides for extensions;
.COM, .EXE, and .BAT have meaning to the CLI.  ALL other extensions are
for user or transient programs.




From jonas at otter.se  Sat Dec 17 15:10:20 2011
From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:10:20 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o, address?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1324144809.16826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1324144809.16826.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EED053C.2020707@otter.se>


>>> YEs, a great book. Along with Bob Pease's book ('Analog circuit
>>> >  >  troubleshooting' or soemthign like that). Well worth reading.
>> >  
>> >      I shall have to obtain a copy of this book.
> I will try to dgi out my copy and post the exact title, ISBN, etc if you
> like.

Troubleshooting Analog Circuits
Robert A. Pease (author)
ISBN-10: 0750694998
ISBN-13: 978-0750694995
Publisher: Newnes; New edition edition (17 Jun 1991)

/Jonas



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Dec 17 20:32:23 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 18:32:23 -0800
Subject: ISO:  Binary editor with bit shift/complement, etc.
Message-ID: <4EECE037.6098.21DD49E@cclist.sydex.com>

I'm looking for a binary editor (platform doesn't really matter) that 
can take blocks of bytes (or bits), shift them right (extended shift, 
 carrying bits throughout the entire block, not just shifting things 
on a byte or word basis), XOR, AND, OR with a repeated value (i.e. 12 
means 12 12 12 ...), modulo add or subtract, etc.  

Anyone know of such a thing?  Most binary editors I've seen are very 
weak in the area of binary data manipulation.  

--Chuck



From scanning.cc at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 22:01:30 2011
From: scanning.cc at gmail.com (alan canning)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:01:30 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJ0aWzpwU+f-fF7nt6V-M90oBWsJWdx0XDg0gPyCuC1zA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1323701292.68413.YahooMailClassic@web45104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ0aWzpwU+f-fF7nt6V-M90oBWsJWdx0XDg0gPyCuC1zA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANe-fkWUohmcdDUqhE5TigfH+wBKHQe-qhm09xf5BkN5sY8kCg@mail.gmail.com>

The scopewriter isn?t really a vector display. It generated a sideways ( 90
degree ) raster that scans from bottom to top of the display by virtue of a
ramp voltage. It creates ASCII characters from a character generator ROM
that turns the ramp on and off without using Z axis. It is a kind of return
to zero ( voltage ) display when the modulator (character generator ) says
to turn off the transmission gate ( 4066 ) to blank that section of the
character. Very cool idea for it?s time. Mine is somewhere in storage hell.



Best regards, Steven, KJ6STF


On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:30 AM, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:

> It might be difficult to build something equivalent to the AVR Scope Clock
> from scratch for less than $30 by the time you're all done, if this
> hardware is suitable for your needs.
>
> http://www.sparkfun.com/products/9306
>
> I don't have one of these myself yet but I should buy one to make use of my
> Tek X-Y monitor.
>


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sat Dec 17 22:25:18 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:25:18 -0800
Subject: Oscilloscope vector display driver...
In-Reply-To: <CANe-fkWUohmcdDUqhE5TigfH+wBKHQe-qhm09xf5BkN5sY8kCg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1323701292.68413.YahooMailClassic@web45104.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <CAM2UOwJ0aWzpwU+f-fF7nt6V-M90oBWsJWdx0XDg0gPyCuC1zA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANe-fkWUohmcdDUqhE5TigfH+wBKHQe-qhm09xf5BkN5sY8kCg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJMtwN=hr2CUuHcpZ3pNaeLr91tWBbrbCj5uUAO4o4wMw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2011 8:05 PM, "alan canning" <scanning.cc at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The scopewriter isn?t really a vector display. It generated a sideways (
90
> degree ) raster that scans from bottom to top of the display by virtue of
a
> ramp voltage. It creates ASCII characters from a character generator ROM
> that turns the ramp on and off without using Z axis. It is a kind of
return
> to zero ( voltage ) display when the modulator (character generator ) says
> to turn off the transmission gate ( 4066 ) to blank that section of the
> character.

Is that anything similar to the scope display built into the SYM-1 board? I
have looked at that in the manual in the past but have never tried hooking
a SYM-1 up to a scope. Has anyone on the list experimented with that?


From jfoust at threedee.com  Sat Dec 17 22:23:15 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:23:15 -0600
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300>
 <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>

At 03:10 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in landfill by default? That's the unsolved part. 

Some countries and states have enacted laws to require it.  In Japan, for
example, you pre-pay a recycling fee when you buy an appliance, and retailers
and manufacturers are required to accept used appliances.  In my state,
Wisconsin, you can't put e-waste in the trash any longer.  It has to go to
a special e-waste collection site.  My waste management company doesn't
seem to care if I put a bare metal PC case in the trash.  If it showed any
wires or circuit boards, I don't think they'd take it.

>About 60-70% of our household waste by volume goes into a recycling pickup. I don't know what happens to it after that, but I am betting that this percentage is higher than most of North America. At work, we have an e-waste pickup. Unfortunately 90% (or more, I guess) of what is dumped there is still serviceable (a whole other topic).

I don't think this topic is too far afield from classic computer collecting.
What if a government begins to charge a fee to dispose of old computers,
for example?  Any hoarder / collector with a pre-existing pile of dozens 
of computers has a significant liability on their hands.  Of course, who
would ever get rid of their classic beauties?  

What would happen if a government instituted a bounty on old computers, 
so the pile suddenly has more value as recyclables than as classic computers?  
The price of gold may have already done that.

There are many people in the USA who regard any recycling as a direct 
affront on their way of life and who deeply resent any requirements
to sort their waste.

- John



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sat Dec 17 22:28:55 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:28:55 -0800
Subject: ISO:  Binary editor with bit shift/complement, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4EECE037.6098.21DD49E@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EECE037.6098.21DD49E@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EED6C07.5010504@brouhaha.com>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
 > Anyone know of such a thing? Most binary editors I've seen are very
 > weak in the area of binary data manipulation.

Yes, I've got one, though it's not very user friendly.  It's called 
"C".  :-(



From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Dec 17 22:51:08 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 20:51:08 -0800
Subject: ISO:  Binary editor with bit shift/complement, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4EED6C07.5010504@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EECE037.6098.21DD49E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EED6C07.5010504@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EED00BC.26549.29CD9D4@cclist.sydex.com>

On 17 Dec 2011 at 20:28, Eric Smith wrote:

> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>  > Anyone know of such a thing? Most binary editors I've seen are very
>  > weak in the area of binary data manipulation.
> 
> Yes, I've got one, though it's not very user friendly.  It's called
> "C".  :-(

Very funny.  

I guess if I want one, I've got to do one myself.  Sigh.

--Chuck



From eric at brouhaha.com  Sun Dec 18 00:07:00 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 22:07:00 -0800
Subject: ISO:  Binary editor with bit shift/complement, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4EED00BC.26549.29CD9D4@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <4EECE037.6098.21DD49E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EED6C07.5010504@brouhaha.com>
 <4EED00BC.26549.29CD9D4@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EED8304.9050402@brouhaha.com>

Chuck Guzis wrote:
 > I guess if I want one, I've got to do one myself. Sigh.

If you use Emacs and have experience hacking Emacs Lisp, you could add 
it to hexl mode.



From shadoooo at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 05:13:03 2011
From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:13:03 +0100
Subject: Data General One: searching manuals and disk images
Message-ID: <4EEDCABF.20202@gmail.com>

Hello.
I have a nice DG One portable computer; it's the 2T version, and appears 
to be fully working.
I doesn't have however manuals nor original OS disks for it, so I'm 
asking if someone has something to share.
It would be very interesting to find also copies of the CPM OS disks.
Thanks
Andrea


From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Sun Dec 18 05:55:45 2011
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:55:45 +0100
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 22
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1323626409.31119.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1323626409.31119.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20111218115545.16340@gmx.net>

Hallo Herr Eichberger,

vielen Dank f?r Ihre Nachricht und Ihre Angebote.
Ich merke das vor und melde mich gegebenenfalls.

Selbstverst?ndlich stehe im Gegenzug auch ich zur Verf?gung, wenn sich in meinem Einzugsbereich etwas anfindet, was f?r Sie von Interesse ist.

Im ?brigen trifft sich das sehr gut, denn wir besuchen etwa einmal im Jahr Freunde und Verwandte in ?sterreich und Tschechien und fahren dabei die Strecke Passau - Linz - Wien - Drasenhofen oder umgekehrt - da l?sst sich ein Treffen bestimmt einmal einplanen.

Die Computersammlung am Universit?ts-Rechenzentrum in Erlangen, wo ich einige Zeit gearbeitet habe, besitzt ?brigens einige pdp-11 Rechner und hat evtl. vor, einen davon wieder in Betrieb zu setzen. D?rfen wir in diesem Fall auf Sie zur?ckkommen, wenn wir dann auf der Softwareseite einige Fragen haben? 

In meiner eigenen Sammlung habe ich bisher von DEC ?brigens "nur" zwei microVAXen und einen alpha-Rechner, die auch noch auf ihre betriebsf?hige Wiederherstellung warten.

Mit freundlichen Gr??en
Arno Kletzander // Vy 73 de DO 4 NAK


-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Date: Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:53:31 +0100
> From: Wolfgang Eichberger <oe5ewl at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> 	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Alpha, VAX available in Sweden
> Message-ID:
> 	<CANJYbi--vh5OW2MD1j1aKBzQ_LD5xE7b34d9Y_Jwtmz0AFqskg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> Arno,
> 
> I can offer you Store and Forward Service if you find something in Austria
> / Southern Germany you'd like to have (offer is available to others if
> desired). My collection "radius" is like yours somewhat limited too, but
> for at least temporary storage I could manage that...
> 
> My second offer is (as usual) a scanning service for everything up to A3.
> If you are (more or less) local and having vintage documentation available
> nowhere else that you'd like to have scanned in feel free to contact me.
> This is a no charge offer, as I would scan in my spare-time. I have
> permanent access to production scanners with reasonable image-quality (B/W
> and color).
> 
> BTW: Does anyone wants to get rid of a 9track Tape or a RL02 drive in the
> Area mentioned above? I don't mind restauration-project-items as
> hobby-capital is a bit limited here. My 11/23 feels a bit naked without
> mass storage.
> 
> Regards,
>  Wolfgang
> 
> --
> Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
> Operating System Collector
> Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
> Homepage: www.eichberger.org

-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie!		
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone


From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Sun Dec 18 05:56:54 2011
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 12:56:54 +0100
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 22
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1323626409.31119.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1323626409.31119.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <20111218115654.16360@gmx.net>

Sorry for the lapse, was meant to go privately of course...

> Hallo Herr Eichberger,
> 
> vielen Dank f?r Ihre Nachricht und Ihre Angebote.
> Ich merke das vor und melde mich gegebenenfalls...


-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie!		
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone


From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 08:46:33 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:46:33 +0000
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk Books free -
 Melbourne
In-Reply-To: <20111217162626.GC36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112121422.pBCEMpO1013888@floodgap.com>
 <20111216164310.GD28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBF558.5070602@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112170212.pBH2C85q070423@billy.ezwind.net>
 <CAMTenCFRxwhbyOeqYArm+gXqbWWj+Cd-L3T=QgCULsFkr9h55g@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111217162626.GC36456@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGHqB8zsHEAnD9E_SqW2HW3RVMEQAjLYBTCNJpEgYfBcA@mail.gmail.com>

On 17 December 2011 16:26, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> Liam Proven wrote:
>
>> On Dec 17, 2011 2:15 AM, "John Foust" <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > At 07:50 PM 12/16/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> > >(I am aware of 'file', but that doesn't, to me, do what you're
>> suggesting.)
>> >
>> > Most of the magic and usefulness of 'file' is due to the fact that many
>> > commonly used files were in standard formats and did contain fixed magic
>> > identifying bytes in their headers. ?It's metadata inside the file.
>> > Extensions put the metadata in the filename, and look at all the tools
>> > that assume filename extensions are standard (.sh, .c, .h, .m, .o).
>>
>> Exactly my point. Well, one of them. UNIX /does/ have and use and even
>> depends upon file extensions, and yet, the shell does not really understand
>> them as a separate entity from the file's /name/... & it is poorer than the
>> admittedly far less powerful or capable Microsoft shell at manipulating
>
> No, you are really wrong. The above example has absolutly nothing todo with
> unix. No one is rejecting you to write a shell that doing things in an
> other way. .sh is not neccessary for an shellscript. .c .h .m .o are only
> interesting for make or for the ?compiler, which can be an cross compiler
> on a entirely different platform. The compiler and make are not neccessarly
> parts of the distribution of an unix system.
>
>> files /by extension/ a opposed to /by name/.
>>
>> When I do "ren *.log *.log.old" I am manipulating a /collection/ of files
>> by their shared /extension/ and *not* by their name. No UNIX shell I am
>> aware of can do this. Sure, you can kludge around it with loops or scripts
>> or little Perl programs but that is more effort, more work and I would
>> argue less elegant.
>
> This is a shell thing and depends of the file expansion with wildcards that
> the shell is doing.
> Again, nobody rejects that you can write a shell that is doing thinks in an
> other way. This has nothing todo with unix. In unix are standard shells
> that are following standards how to do this filename expansion. But there
> is more than one shell available, many of them, even ascii windowed
> versions where you have no chance to give you ren command this way.
> Even an NC-clone on unix is a shell to the user.

>From your discussion with others as well as me, it seems that you have
a /very/ strict or pure interpretation of what is a "Unix" attribute
as opposed to what is an attribute of the shell or of some other
program.

This might be arguably correct, in a formal sense, but I do not think
that it is helpful in this case. If you have examples of shells that
behave like Unix shells on non-Unix systems, or of shells that emulate
non-Unix like behaviour on Unix systems, then OK, I will concede the
point.

But otherwise - if the behaviour is due to some part of the Unix
system, be that shell or kernel or compiler or linker or make - and it
always happens on Unix boxes and it does not happen on non-Unix boxes,
then I think it is perfectly fair to say that this is an attribute of
Unix systems.

Sure, it won't happen on a Unix system with no compiler or no shell,
but if all the parts are there, and it does it, then I would say it's
a Unix attribute.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Sun Dec 18 09:22:43 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:22:43 -0500
Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD bridge project
Message-ID: <010e01ccbd98$f18e1140$d4aa33c0$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi,

 

I ordered some additional SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards.  

 

The project has a working design (so far) and some preliminary software.

 

If you are interested in a helping to develop a completely free and open
design please contact me.

 

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder
<http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=MINI%20SCSI%20
to%20IDE%20prototypes> &param=MINI%20SCSI%20to%20IDE%20prototypes

 

This project uses the older style technology consistent with the rest of the
N8VEM style boards for easy construction and customization.

 

While I concede there are many paths to designing a SCSI-1 drive replacement
this approach has merit and has shown some real progress.

 

What we need is some additional help to get the project finished so it can
be offered to the vintage/hobbyist community as a means to preserve
computers or other devices which rely on SCSI-1 drives.

 

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch



From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Sun Dec 18 09:47:37 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:47:37 -0500
Subject: SCSI to IDE/SD bridge project
Message-ID: <011b01ccbd9c$6c5f8950$451e9bf0$@YAHOO.COM>

[resending message as ASCII only due to severe HTML mangling of URL]

Hi,

I ordered some additional SCSI to IDE/SD prototype boards.? 

The project has a working design (so far) and some preliminary software.

If you are interested in a helping to develop a completely free and open
design please contact me.

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=MINI%20SCSI%20t
o%20IDE%20prototypes

This project uses the older style technology consistent with the rest of the
N8VEM style boards for easy construction and customization.

While I concede there are many paths to designing a SCSI-1 drive replacement
this approach has merit and has shown some real progress.

What we need is some additional help to get the project finished so it can
be offered to the vintage/hobbyist community as a means to preserve
computers or other devices which rely on SCSI-1 drives.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Dec 18 10:15:58 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:15:58 -0500
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <4EEE11BE.2070306@telegraphics.com.au>

On 17/12/11 11:23 PM, John Foust wrote:
> At 03:10 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in landfill by default? That's the unsolved part.
>
> Some countries and states have enacted laws to require it.

I was going to be sarcastic, but instead I'll just admit that I already 
thought of this answer.

What's holding up such laws in the West?

 > In Japan, for
> example, you pre-pay a recycling fee when you buy an appliance, and retailers
> and manufacturers are required to accept used appliances.  In my state,
> Wisconsin, you can't put e-waste in the trash any longer.  It has to go to
> a special e-waste collection site.

Yet as mentioned earlier on the list, ordinary consumers put toxic CFLs 
(and everything else) in ordinary trash. There's no proper-disposal 
surcharge, is there?

 > My waste management company doesn't
> seem to care if I put a bare metal PC case in the trash.  If it showed any
> wires or circuit boards, I don't think they'd take it.
>
>> About 60-70% of our household waste by volume goes into a recycling pickup. I don't know what happens to it after that, but I am betting that this percentage is higher than most of North America. At work, we have an e-waste pickup. Unfortunately 90% (or more, I guess) of what is dumped there is still serviceable (a whole other topic).
>
> I don't think this topic is too far afield from classic computer collecting.

Oh, it's not. :)

> What if a government begins to charge a fee to dispose of old computers,
> for example?  Any hoarder / collector with a pre-existing pile of dozens
> of computers has a significant liability on their hands.  Of course, who
> would ever get rid of their classic beauties?
>
> What would happen if a government instituted a bounty on old computers,
> so the pile suddenly has more value as recyclables than as classic computers?
> The price of gold may have already done that.
>
> There are many people in the USA who regard any recycling as a direct
> affront on their way of life and who deeply resent any requirements
> to sort their waste.

Bingo. Why should they care? It's their descendants who'll pay.

--Toby

>
> - John
>
>



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 18 12:19:17 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 10:19:17 -0800
Subject: ISO:  Binary editor with bit shift/complement, etc.
In-Reply-To: <4EED8304.9050402@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EECE037.6098.21DD49E@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <4EED00BC.26549.29CD9D4@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EED8304.9050402@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EEDBE25.17090.9D9E9@cclist.sydex.com>

On 17 Dec 2011 at 22:07, Eric Smith wrote:

> Chuck Guzis wrote:
>  > I guess if I want one, I've got to do one myself. Sigh.
> 
> If you use Emacs and have experience hacking Emacs Lisp, you could add
> it to hexl mode.

I've probably got the pieces of one kicking around in my code 
hellbox; just was hoping I didn't have to write another one-off tool. 
 I thought that perhaps the crypto people might have something like 
that.

Thanks,
Chuck



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 12:46:24 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 19:46:24 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <1324157662.99694.YahooMailRC@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1324157662.99694.YahooMailRC@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <20111218184624.GA41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote:

> From: John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com>
> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
>     converter possible?
> Message-ID: <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368 at billy.ezwind.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> 
> John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> wrote:
> 
> ..."When it first started
> happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
> gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe..."
> 
> 
> at the time I heard 3 guys from the factory got together and stole 3  parts of 
> the formula from a tiawanese factory and defected to mainland  china for a $1M 
> bounty. But they didn't know of a 4th part; the  corrosion inhibitor. Without 
> the 4th part the caps were supposed to  little time bombs, slowly eating away at 
> their aluminum cases. I do know  I woke up one night after having a dream of 
> popcorn popping only to  find a ATX p/s with caps going off like popcorn in the 
> room next door. I  unplugged the PC and put it in the bath tub and went back to 
> sleep.  Changed out the p/s the next day and it worked fine.
> 
> 
> ________________________________

Hmm, one of my customers is Frolyt in Freiberg Germany.
(http://www.frolyt.de/)
The old QM manager (pensioned now) that was in is 2nd function
responsible to some IT related things, contactet me on the phone
and mailed me an pdf that described the problem related to
"forgotten" ingredencies that inhibits the build of H2 in the
condenser trough electrolyse effects.
He was loughing loudly, Frolyt builds electrolytics here since ages..
The recipe of the electrolyte is top secret.

Kind Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 12:49:30 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 19:49:30 +0100
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 52
In-Reply-To: <4EECE7C2.8010909@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1324147230.90770.YahooMailRC@web82406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <4EECE7C2.8010909@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <20111218184930.GB41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Toby Thain wrote:

> On 17/12/11 1:40 PM, spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote:
> >...When it first started
> >happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
> >gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe...
> >
> >at the time I heard 3 guys from the factory got together and stole 3 parts 
> >of
> >the formula from a tiawanese factory and defected to mainland china for a 
> >$1M
> >bounty. But they didn't know of a 4th part; the corrosion inhibitor. 
> >Without the
> >4th part the caps were supposed to little time bombs, slowly eating away at
> >their aluminum cases. I do know I woke up one night after having a dream of
> >popcorn popping only to find a ATX p/s with caps going off like popcorn in 
> >the
> >room next door. I unplugged the PC and put it in the bath tub and went 
> >back to
> >sleep. Changed out the p/s the next day and it worked fine.
> >
> 
> Right, but the problem I'm talking about is the systemic crime, not some 
> particular heist. Same kind of mentality and people is responsible, though.
> 
> --T

You may take a look to an actual mainboard. Mostly there are unused
Places for capacitors in the CPU Voltage Converters.
They know that the condensers will fail and optimizing the time until that
by not solderin all caps in. The ripple will kill them short after the
warranty is over.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 18 13:14:22 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:14:22 -0800
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <20111218184624.GA41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <1324157662.99694.YahooMailRC@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
 <20111218184624.GA41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>

On 18 Dec 2011 at 19:46, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> He was loughing loudly, Frolyt builds electrolytics here since ages..
> The recipe of the electrolyte is top secret.

It's amazing to me that in my entire life, I have never run across a 
Frolyt capacitor.  Until the rise of China and Japan, it has been 
brands such as Sprague, Cornell-Duplier, Electrovox, Mallory, etc.  
Afterwards, Nichicon, Elna and the other usual suspects.

Frolyt must be very specialized.

--Chuck



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 13:21:50 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:21:50 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>
References: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au> <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Tony Duell wrote:

> > >> Fine Print.  Warranty may be void under the condition the user applies
> > >> electric current this product.  I think standard caps are only good for a
> > >> few 1000 hours. You get what you pay for.
> > 
> > Not really true. There is apparently little attention to thermal design 
> > or component quality. Ergo: Built-in obsolescence. If we ask "who 
> 
> I reas really suprised earlier today. I have a very cheap small, (5.5" 
> CRT) B&W protable TV/monitor that I use on my workbench for displayiug 
> the output of home computers, etc. It's handy becuase it's so small. 
> 
> Anyway, althoug it was very cheap, it's not too badly made. I am not 
> suggesting it's like a Barco. but at least all the component positons are 
> labelled _on both sides of the PCB_. Connections and presets are 
> labelled, that sort of thing. The only thoign I didn;'t like was that the 
> components were not 'formed' nicely, they had long wires, not fitted down 
> to the PCB (I know, of course, that it's a good idea to space components 
> that disipate a lot of power off the PCB, but not things like disc 
> ceramic capacitors). 
> 
> Anyway, today I had to crack open the wall-wart that powers it, a simple 
> 13.5V (nominal) thing. Crack open being right, it's gleud together. 
> Anyway, I had 2 suprised : 
> 
> 1) The trnasformer hs an internal thermal fuse in series with the primary 
> -- this thing is safer than a lot of wall warts out there

Hmm, most of them that gets imported here are build this way.
Secially the cheap chargers for electric tools that are build out of
a wall wart and an external current limiting resistor in the accu receptacle
and nothing else. People where overcharging the former used Nicad cells for
sure this way, some time a single cell fails with an internal short,
the current gets to high and the thermo fuse in the primary is blowing up
the entire shit to waste.
Had such problems often in the past.
There was a german company that build wall warts with changeable thermo
fuses in the past. You could get the fuses for small money but I don't
think that they still make such "expensive" things.

> 
> 2) The smoothing capacitor in the wall wart (which is a linear thing, 
> tranformer + bridge rectifier + smoothing capacitor) was labeled 105 
> degreeC. Better than I'd have expected.
> 
> On the other hanmd they saved all of a penny by not fitting a bleeder 
> resistor, for all there's space on the wall wart PCB for one. I've 
> remedieed this...
> 
> > benefits?" we get a useful answer, too.
> > 
> > >> Ben.
> > >>
> > >
> > > So we all now have no problems with that, or what?
> > 
> > I have a big problem with it!!!
> 
> As do I/ I also have a problem wit h the fact that many of the so-clled 
> 'green' measures do more harm than good. For example leded solderwould 
> not be a polution problem if things werer repaired, and thus didn't go to 
> landfill until they were at least 50 years old...
> 
> -tony

Some sayed that the lead that gets trough the bullets of hunters and
as plummet of fishing rods into the environment is much more than that from
solder in electric waste...

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 18 13:50:31 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 11:50:31 -0800
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au>, <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>,
 <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEDD387.7509.5D5D9C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 18 Dec 2011 at 20:21, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Some sayed that the lead that gets trough the bullets of hunters and
> as plummet of fishing rods into the environment is much more than that
> from solder in electric waste...

That could be true.  Old electronics solder is mostly tin by volume, 
which is relatively more valuable than lead.  Reclamation of the bulk 
of solder from electronics trash would seem to be fairly simple.

On the other hand, we still have tons of lead buried along highways 
because of years of use of tetraehyl lead as a gasoline additive.  In 
his later years, Charles Kettering as president of Ethyl Corporation 
spent large amounts of money blocking investigation into harmful 
effects of organic lead.   Since General Motors was a partner in this 
venture, it's likely that hey're sitting on old documents that could 
be very embarrassing.  

For years, bridges and battleships were painted with lead-bearing 
paints; the water line connecting my childhood home to the street 
main was constructed of lead.  Lead is still being used for roof 
flashing, fishing sinkers and auto batteries.  Simply responsibly 
processing electronic waste would eliminate the need for RoHS-type 
solder, I'd think.

--Chuck





From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 13:52:03 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:52:03 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

MikeS wrote:

> ---- Original message:
> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> 
> >Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> >represents.
> 
> Why?
> 
> What is so terribly wrong with using the file's _name_ to describe the type
> of data a file represents, so that those "humans" that you seem to disdain
> elsewhere can also know and work with its type, not just the computer?

You ask me what's wrong? Never heard of a file called "your_win.jpg.exe" for
example and was most Windoze users are doning with such a file and how its
name is displayed on most windoze machines?
Wasn't Windoze NT DOD certified for security with the included restriction
that the computer has to stand in a closed room without any network connected to
itand without access from people to his Console?
Nobody has read the footnotes it seems, it was certified, so what..

Or read about the Navy smartship project and the USS Yorktown...
The solgan was "Why you need a Saiddam when you have a Bill?"

:-)

Do you think there was change in their Quality of Software since then?
How many percent of compute power world wide is used for virus scanners
only now? There are many older computers that are unusable now only
because of the compute power that the virus scanner is needing, slowing
down the entire thing.
Programs are really bloatware now, Gigabytes of RAM are neccessary to yust
run the OS with his sick features. Programs for Financial accounting
doesn't install if you don't have at least a Gig of RAM... ??!!!??
Sorry, I love the UNIX KISS way. Small rpogramms that are doing only one
thing, butthis really good and the possibility to concatenate them.

On the desk next to me is currently an 8" double floppy drive, an the floor
nearby stands the card cage of an russian PDP-11 Clone (w/o MMU), an
Elektronika 60. This thing runs FODOS, the russian RT-11 Clone where you
really can do neat things. This machine has 32KW of RAM and is clocked
around 3Mhz...

> 
> Always sad to see that in a community one would expect to be eager and open
> to explore different and perhaps even better ways of doing things, this
> sort of discussion so often is mostly just defending the status quo and
> _arguing_ over DOS *versus* UNIX, Win vs. Linux, Apple vs. PC etc., even
> sometimes to the point of insulting and name-calling, not to mention the
> all-pervasive disdain and contempt for those unwashed [L]users 'out there'
> whom all this is ultimately actually for and who indirectly pay most of our
> salaries.
> 
> We are all in the same business/hobby after all and surely there are better
> ways to spend our precious time...

I make a big peace of my living out of fixing Windoze problems for customers,
so I have absolutly nothing against mikeysoft and their shit called
"Operating System" or  "Word Processing Software" for example.
(Maybe Word sometimes, if it ever gets finished is then called "Text".
Maybe you can do better things then with it as wirting letters to your
grandma and watching this ugly animated dog.)

> 
> But alas, it has ever been thus...
> 
> BTW, I think this quote from Ritchie himself sums it up perfectly:
> "Unix is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."
> 
> m

Hmm, wasn't it "Unix IS user friendly, but it is a little restrictive what
his friends are.."

Regards,

Holm

PS:
Sorry for my broken english, never learned it in a shool or so, it's
entirely from using unixoid OS's and communicateing with people like you
over the net. Proably it's still better as your german :-)
I had russian in the shool but had never to use it so I forgot most of
it.

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 14:05:49 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:05:49 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <4EEBA5D7.8030200@neurotica.com>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
 <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEA374B.4000506@neurotica.com>
 <20111216165005.GE28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBA5D7.8030200@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111218200549.GE41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Dave McGuire wrote:

[..]
> 
>   I don't agree.  It certainly *may* be, but there's no compelling 
> reason to say so "for sure".  I work in the electronics industry; 
> counterfeit components are a very real, very big, very current problem 
> here.  That's not me guessing, wondering, or saying it may be so; this 
> is a well known thing throughout the industry...a simple verifiable 
> fact.  There was another big article about it in a weekly trade rag just 
> yesterday, and there's lots of new legislation happening to try to curb it.
> 
>   As far as the capacitor-within-a-capacitor in the picture, don't 
> underestimate the cheapness of Chinese labor.  I'm sure they have 
> children cranking those out by the hundred every day.  With bigger 
> capacitors costing several dollars apiece, especially high-temp and 
> low-ESR capacitors, the demand for which is skyrocketing now, it's 
> probably even more profitable than relabeling cheap chips as expensive 
> ones and flooding them onto the market.

I agree with most of what you sayed, and I'm woring for the electronic
industry too, for my own company in this special case :-)

Again, yes, there are counterfied products with poor quality all over the
world. Almost nobody can tell you what aou will get when you order audio
Transistors from Sanken for example, there are masses of them.

It was only this single Part on the picture about that I've sayd this can't
be made econmically even for a chinese. The price difference between the
original part and the small noname cap and the additional used parts
(Housing, tube, print, bottom and contacts plus the needed work) will
really be to small, even for an chinese worker.
> 
> >I have no problem when you say, that there may be Rubicon lookalikes on
> >the market that doesn't hold the specs, but not such a thing.
> >Remeber: Chineses are making cheap things, but they aren't idiots for sure.
> 
>   They're certainly quite smart; a lot smarter than the rest of us it 
> seems.  So, since they're making and exporting counterfeit components by 
> the container load, they must see quite a profit from it.
> 
>              -Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave McGuire
> New Kensington, PA

Proably you are right.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 14:11:38 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:11:38 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <4EEDD387.7509.5D5D9C@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEDD387.7509.5D5D9C@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111218201138.GF41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2011 at 20:21, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > Some sayed that the lead that gets trough the bullets of hunters and
> > as plummet of fishing rods into the environment is much more than that
> > from solder in electric waste...
> 
> That could be true.  Old electronics solder is mostly tin by volume, 
> which is relatively more valuable than lead.  Reclamation of the bulk 
> of solder from electronics trash would seem to be fairly simple.
> 
> On the other hand, we still have tons of lead buried along highways 
> because of years of use of tetraehyl lead as a gasoline additive.  In 
> his later years, Charles Kettering as president of Ethyl Corporation 
> spent large amounts of money blocking investigation into harmful 
> effects of organic lead.   Since General Motors was a partner in this 
> venture, it's likely that hey're sitting on old documents that could 
> be very embarrassing.  
> 
> For years, bridges and battleships were painted with lead-bearing 
> paints; the water line connecting my childhood home to the street 
> main was constructed of lead.  Lead is still being used for roof 
> flashing, fishing sinkers and auto batteries.  Simply responsibly 
> processing electronic waste would eliminate the need for RoHS-type 
> solder, I'd think.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> 

Fully agree.
There are many laws here now that are simple made from idiots.
RoHS in it's current form is one of that. An other thing is
that simple light bulbs above 60 Watts are denied now here..
Modern energy saver lamps (don't know the american term for that)
must be made from "Flower smell" and not with Hg.


Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From lproven at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 14:21:13 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:21:13 +0000
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>
 <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCF_0yw7VYeVio1owdoUPVza5cyf+y_KthjwBxoABA8Anw@mail.gmail.com>

On 18 December 2011 19:52, Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:
> MikeS wrote:
>
>> ---- Original message:
>> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
>> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
>>
>> >Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
>> >represents.
>>
>> Why?
>>
>> What is so terribly wrong with using the file's _name_ to describe the type
>> of data a file represents, so that those "humans" that you seem to disdain
>> elsewhere can also know and work with its type, not just the computer?
>
> You ask me what's wrong? Never heard of a file called "your_win.jpg.exe" for
> example and was most Windoze users are doning with such a file and how its
> name is displayed on most windoze machines?

That's a good, fair point. I suspect that actually the Unix approach -
of an attribute denoting runnability - is the better way there.

Or the Acorn RISC OS and NeXTStep/Mac OS X approach layered on top,
which is that GUI "applications" - as opposed to mere executable - are
a specially-formatted directory. (Why? Because you can open one up and
look inside, without using special tools.)

> PS:
> Sorry for my broken english, never learned it in a shool or so, it's
> entirely from using unixoid OS's and communicateing with people like you
> over the net. Proably it's still better as your german :-)
> I had russian in the shool but had never to use it so I forgot most of
> it.

Kein problem. Es ist gut. Ich wei?e nicht ?ber die Amerikaneren, aber
hier in Gro?brittanien, wir haben uns ein bi?chen Deutsch...

(Cameron, Rich A, entschuldigung!)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 14:22:25 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:22:25 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20111218184624.GA41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111218202225.GA42577@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 18 Dec 2011 at 19:46, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > He was loughing loudly, Frolyt builds electrolytics here since ages..
> > The recipe of the electrolyte is top secret.
> 
> It's amazing to me that in my entire life, I have never run across a 
> Frolyt capacitor.  Until the rise of China and Japan, it has been 
> brands such as Sprague, Cornell-Duplier, Electrovox, Mallory, etc.  
> Afterwards, Nichicon, Elna and the other usual suspects.
> 
> Frolyt must be very specialized.
> 
> --Chuck

That is'nt much suprise for me :-)

I live in the former eastern part of germany and I don't think that the
former GDR exported many of electronics to the US.
Now they are smaller as before too, most of their parts are going in to
automotive they say. Again, I don't think that you have much todo with
german cars, BMW and Mercedes making most of their products for the US
marked in the US.
You can find many of the frolyt caps in electronics from the former
communist countries. Nevertheless, their caps where and still are very
good with the exeption of some mid seventy series of electrolytics with
an white polystyrol or polyvinylchloride housing (they where white, named
Schneem?nner" (Snow Man)here in slang). The electrolyt simple
evaporated trough the housing.

http://forum2.magnetofon.de/bildupload/rk7_drei-Schneemaenner.png

Regards,

Holm


-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 13:52:37 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 19:52:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Mouse's parts stocks,
 was Re: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup
In-Reply-To: <4EED0608.3010002@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 17,
 11 04:13:44 pm
Message-ID: <m1RcMmq-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/14/2011 07:39 PM, Mouse wrote:
> > I wouldn't, though, call my parts stock a "junk box"; that conjures up
> > images of a container with an unsorted mishmash of salvaged parts all
> > dumped in it together, and most of my parts are not salvaged scrap and
> > are not all jumbled together.
> 
>    I don't think Tony meant any insult here.  Anybody who has been doing 

Absolutely not. 

> electronics stuff for more than about a week typically has such a box 
> (in my case it's dozens of large plastic crates), and people who are 
> more serious about it, myself include, ALSO have "parts stocks" as you 
> describe.

Indeed. There is a third class of 'stock' which consists of surplus 
componets. Often new, and high quality, but in some sense non-stnadard. 
And these might be called 'junk box' too.
 
For example, a packet of new 1k 1% resistors is 'parts stock', some 
salveged body-tip-sport resistors probably go in the 'junk box', but an 
assortment of 0.1% resistors obtaineed as surplus components is possibly 
also called 'junk box' for all they're very good components.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 14:07:03 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:07:03 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o address?
In-Reply-To: <4EED0A9F.3060803@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Dec 17,
 11 04:33:19 pm
Message-ID: <m1RcN0r-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 12/17/2011 01:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> > I rememebr reading about a Mullard (Philips) device that consisted of a
> > filament and a number of LDRs in a B(A-baed bottle (about the size of an
                                       ^^^
That should have been B9A (Noval, 9 pin miniature), of course.

> > ECC83/12AX7). I think the number was RPY13. It appears to have been a
> > predecessor of the optoisolator. I've never seen one.
> 
>    Oh wow, that sounds like fun!

I did remepeber the number correclty. A google search for RPY13 turns up 
several pages with pinouts, photos, etc.

> > What do they use for LDRs nowadays? cThe ones I used were cadmium
> > sulphide (CdS), but I beleive cadmium is frowned upon now :-(
> 
>    It may be, but CdS cells abound, and I don't see them going away 
> anytime soon.  There's so little cadmium in them that I really don't see 
> it ever being a problem.

You and I know it's not a problem,. but that is hargly going to satisfy 
the non-scientific idiots we have in charge. I beleive that all CdS LDRs 
are not RoHS compliant ;-(. This doesn;'t affect home constructios (at 
least not in the UK), it does matter if you're going to use them commerially.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 14:32:46 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:32:46 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 18, 11 11:14:22 am
Message-ID: <m1RcNPj-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> On 18 Dec 2011 at 19:46, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > He was loughing loudly, Frolyt builds electrolytics here since ages..
> > The recipe of the electrolyte is top secret.

Is that a challenge for somebody to cut oepn a acpacitor and anaylse the 
electrolyte?

> 
> It's amazing to me that in my entire life, I have never run across a 
> Frolyt capacitor.  Until the rise of China and Japan, it has been 

Now hae I. And like you I must have seen thousands of electrolytics in my 
lifetime.

> brands such as Sprague, Cornell-Duplier, Electrovox, Mallory, etc.  

Over here ther were also TCC (which IIRC was 'Telephone|Telegraph 
Condenser Company' and LCR (who at one time had a serios reliability 
problem with the rivits on the connecting tags. TV repairers who've fixed 
Philis G11 sets will know that one). 

> Afterwards, Nichicon, Elna and the other usual suspects.
> 
> Frolyt must be very specialized.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 14:39:13 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:39:13 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> from "Holm
 Tiffe" at Dec 18, 11 08:21:50 pm
Message-ID: <m1RcNVt-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> > Anyway, today I had to crack open the wall-wart that powers it, a simpl=
> e=20
> > 13.5V (nominal) thing. Crack open being right, it's gleud together.=20
> > Anyway, I had 2 suprised :=20
> >=20
> > 1) The trnasformer hs an internal thermal fuse in series with the prima=
> ry=20
> > -- this thing is safer than a lot of wall warts out there
> 
> Hmm, most of them that gets imported here are build this way.

Yo uare lucky. Most of the well-warts we get in the UK have no intenral 
protectio nt all, they rely on the 30A ring main fuse.... I am told that 
the transformer is supposed ot burn out in a safe way if overlaoded, mu 
expeirencie si that this does not happen, at least not until the thing 
has got hot enough to melt the case and emit a lot of magic smoke. 

It was fiding the thermal fuse that I regarded as a suprise on such a 
cheap product.

> There was a german company that build wall warts with changeable thermo

I can rememebr the Philips radios and tape recorders with thermal fuses 
slotted into the intenral mains transofmer, and instructions in the 
service manual for yanking it out nad replacing it if it failed.

The PSU for my Philis G7000 video game (not strictly a wall wart, it's got
 a short mains input lead on it) has both mains nad output-side fuses and 
a thermal fuse inside. And in a screwed-together case so it can be 
repaired. The wall wart for my LogicDart also has a separate (and thus 
replaceable) thermal fuse on thge PCB, in a screwed-together case. But 
such things are vey much i nthe minority now.


-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 14:45:42 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:45:42 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <4EEDD387.7509.5D5D9C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Dec
 18, 11 11:50:31 am
Message-ID: <m1RcNc8-000J43C@p850ug1>

> flashing, fishing sinkers and auto batteries.  Simply responsibly 
> processing electronic waste would eliminate the need for RoHS-type 
> solder, I'd think.

I've heard it said that the exxtra energy required becuase of hte higher 
temperature needed to relaibly (?) use lead-free solder negates the 
evironmental beneifits of it....

Perhaps I am cynical, but I feel that the use of lead free solder has 
more to do with making stuff that breaks after a short time and less to 
do with saving the plaent. Of course if you do the former and claim to be 
doing hte latter, it's a win-win for the manufactuer.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 18 14:52:49 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:52:49 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <20111218201138.GF41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> from "Holm
 Tiffe" at Dec 18, 11 09:11:38 pm
Message-ID: <m1RcNj2-000J43C@p850ug1>

> There are many laws here now that are simple made from idiots.

Alas yes. Perhaps 'idiots' is too strong a term, but it's certainly the 
case that ther e are very few people with scientific/engineering 
knowledge making laws. This doesn't make them 'idiots',but it dows mean, 
IKHO, they whould take advice from people who understnad such subjects.

> RoHS in it's current form is one of that. An other thing is
> that simple light bulbs above 60 Watts are denied now here..

The;'re difficutl to goet over here, for sure. 

Problem is, there are soem applciations where the replacements are not 
acceptable. Current limiting resistors being the obvious one...

> Modern energy saver lamps (don't know the american term for that)

'CFL' is a common one (Compact Fluorescent Lamp).

> must be made from "Flower smell" and not with Hg.
>

:-).

-tony


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 15:52:05 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 16:52:05 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub
 converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <20111218200549.GE41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <m1Rawrt-000J4PC@p850ug1> <4EE94D90.6050905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EE95C33.1060401@neurotica.com>
 <D9C434EF-9BEB-4CCF-8842-365FEED4979B@gmail.com>
 <20111215132107.GA22313@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEA374B.4000506@neurotica.com>
 <20111216165005.GE28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEBA5D7.8030200@neurotica.com>
 <20111218200549.GE41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <CANij+df8kUaEU9Sg6r9BDMqaCquDugu-DsHVBLjqvdm=bKQN+w@mail.gmail.com>

> Again, yes, there are counterfied products with poor quality all over the
> world. Almost nobody can tell you what aou will get when you order audio
> Transistors from Sanken for example, there are masses of them.

It should be noted that counterfeit electronic components are
absolutely nothing new. Back in both the 1920s and the 1950s, there
were huge rashes of bogus tubes, and even in the 1970s, there were
scads of crap semiconductors.

--
Will


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 18 16:08:41 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 14:08:41 -0800
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <m1RcNVt-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de> from "Holm Tiffe"
 at Dec 18, 11 08:21:50 pm, <m1RcNVt-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EEDF3E9.26236.DBDDE3@cclist.sydex.com>

On 18 Dec 2011 at 20:39, Tony Duell wrote:

> Anyway, today I had to crack open the wall-wart that powers it, a
> simple 13.5V (nominal) thing. Crack open being right, it's gleud
> together. Anyway, I had 2 suprised :  1) The trnasformer hs an
> internal thermal fuse in series with the primary-- this thing is
> safer than a lot of wall warts out there .

My experience of Chinese goods before 1990 was that they were roughly 
finished, but that they were fairly accurate reproductions of Western 
gear.

The slide toward cheapness at any cost is relatively recent.  I think 
it's less endemic to Chinese way of thinking than it's more of an 
economic tool.   Sort of an anti-Deming approach.

--Chuck




From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 16:19:48 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 17:19:48 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <4EEDF3E9.26236.DBDDE3@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <m1RcNVt-000J4AC@p850ug1> <4EEDF3E9.26236.DBDDE3@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcQZZEooB7t3pHeJk7ybs==gCG3k0GP0=3=A_58LweO7g@mail.gmail.com>

> My experience of Chinese goods before 1990 was that they were roughly
> finished, but that they were fairly accurate reproductions of Western
> gear.
>
> The slide toward cheapness at any cost is relatively recent. ?I think
> it's less endemic to Chinese way of thinking than it's more of an
> economic tool. ? Sort of an anti-Deming approach.

Yes, it is all about economics, and the way the Yuan is related to the
Dollar (*very* lopsided - the two do not exchange like other
currencies). The cost of labor has little to do in the big picture, as
their productivity is quite low compared to the US, and mostly cancels
out the advantage.

--
Will



From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Sun Dec 18 16:25:05 2011
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 23:25:05 +0100
Subject: recreating C source from binary
Message-ID: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>


Hi,

I'm trying to re-create the source files for the Z8000 UNIX I have
on my Z8000 system (it is a S8000+ZEUS clone).
Easy programs like sync.c where easy. But when argc/argv is involved,
I'm not able to generate 1:1 matching binary code.

I'm working on /etc/unlink for now.

I tried the following C file:

char whatstr[] = "@[$]unlink.c  2.1  07/23/82 21:19:30 - 87wega3.2";

main(argc, argv)
int argc;
char **argv;
{
         if(argc!=2) {
                 write(2, "Usage: /etc/unlink name\n", 24);
                 exit(1);
         }
         unlink(argv[1]);
         exit(0);
}

The original ASM code for the beginning of main() until the argc
check is:

0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
0044             5df60000  ldl     %0000(r15),rr6
0048             0b070002  cp      r7,#%0002


The ASM code my C file generates is:

0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
0044                 1df6  ldl     @r15,rr6
0046             0b070002  cp      r7,#%0002

keep in mine, that r15 is considered as the "stack pointer".

I wonder how to get the ldl from the original binary.
I also tried to declare argv with "char *argv[]" which
resulted in the same code. Forcing the compiler to store
argv into a register by using the "register" keyword results
in completly different code:

(sp = stack pointer = r15)

#17 adb unlink
ADB: P8000 1.6
? 0x0042/i
%0042:          dec     sp,#6
?
%0044:          ld      %0004(sp),r14
?
%0048:          ld      %0002(sp),r7
?
%004c:          ld      r14,r6
?
%004e:          cp      r7,#%0002
? $q
#18


Maybe  the C compiler used to compile /etc/unlink differs from
the C compiler shipped with the system (maybe an older version)
but I don't want this to be true for now ;)

Anyone with deeper ASM and C knowledge than me sees what could
be done here?

Before someone asks - yes I'm sure the source file was in C
and not ASM based on the whatstr. Symboltable of the original
/etc/unlink is empty as well (striped binary).

Regards, Oliver


From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 16:47:04 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 23:47:04 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <m1RcNPj-000J4MC@p850ug1>
References: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com> <m1RcNPj-000J4MC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <20111218224704.GA42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Tony Duell wrote:

> > On 18 Dec 2011 at 19:46, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > 
> > > He was loughing loudly, Frolyt builds electrolytics here since ages..
> > > The recipe of the electrolyte is top secret.
> 
> Is that a challenge for somebody to cut oepn a acpacitor and anaylse the 
> electrolyte?
> 
> > 
> > It's amazing to me that in my entire life, I have never run across a 
> > Frolyt capacitor.  Until the rise of China and Japan, it has been 
> 
> Now hae I. And like you I must have seen thousands of electrolytics in my 
> lifetime.

Don't know really.

There where two Elko Caps manufacturers in eastern germany, one in Gera
(Company was named Koweg = Kondensatorenwerk Gera) and the other was
Frolyt (Freiberger Elektrolytkondensatoren) in my Hometown Freiberg.
(The city with the first mining academy of the world, and the cithy where
the Linux Penguin Plushy came from, try to translate this:
http://www.freibergnet.de/linux-tux-story.html) :-))
Koweg and an Company in G?rlitz made PIO and other Foil Condensers,
Ceramics came from Keramische Werke Hermsdorf (KWH).

We had a trainfold "Praktische Arbeit"i (practical work) in the school
when I was around 14-15 years old.
Every 2nd week there where some work hours in workshops where parts are
made for the local industry. In my case we made some length rulers for
woodworkers (The man in the forrests), Parts for vinyl record players
under the hood of the "Freiberger Pr?zisionsmechanik" a part of The
Carl Zeiss Jena combinate (conzern) and I spot weldet the kathode foil
of axial electrolytic caps into the aluminum housing of caps for frolyt
to this time.
We had to make an test if the hand sweat contained chlor, If yes, the
condensers where bad after handling the inside parts, such boys and girls
got other jobs.

So far as I know there is nothing really special on the recipe for the
electrolyte, but it seems, that Chinese companies failed to get a working
recipe. Don't ask me why, tought the would copy better such things.
But I know that the manufacturers use different soups in ther condensers.
You can smell different things when the condensers are bad, some really
stinking fishy, Frolyts and  others not, they have a different technical
smell..(couldn't explain).

I've seen thousends of elektrolytics too, still curios about bad sprague caps
in TEK 7000 PSUs (5V raw rail). Since they had a ugly footprint I've opened the
can and inserted other condensers. The wound part inside the spragues was
still wet and ok, but the Anode connection was corroded in two halves?!?

There are other companies where I don't have good experiences, Roederstein
from Western Germany for Example, I had many many bad caps from them in the
past.  Such condensers where mounted from time to time in east german products,
others where Tesla and some polish and russian types.
Since this, I think the production put out of Frolyt wasn't big enough to
satify the needs of the local industry, which in the other way explains why
you don't evers seen one. :-)

Wan't to buy an old east-german radio?

I don't have such bad experiences with Frolyts, I still have some from before
the fall of the iron curtain and I still use them for repair old devices (after
checking the ESR).


Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 18 16:57:38 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 23:57:38 +0100
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
Message-ID: <20111218225738.GB42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Oliver Lehmann wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm trying to re-create the source files for the Z8000 UNIX I have
> on my Z8000 system (it is a S8000+ZEUS clone).
> Easy programs like sync.c where easy. But when argc/argv is involved,
> I'm not able to generate 1:1 matching binary code.
> 
> I'm working on /etc/unlink for now.
> 
> I tried the following C file:
> 
> char whatstr[] = "@[$]unlink.c  2.1  07/23/82 21:19:30 - 87wega3.2";
> 
> main(argc, argv)
> int argc;
> char **argv;
> {
>         if(argc!=2) {
>                 write(2, "Usage: /etc/unlink name\n", 24);
>                 exit(1);
>         }
>         unlink(argv[1]);
>         exit(0);
> }
> 
> The original ASM code for the beginning of main() until the argc
> check is:
> 
> 0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
> 0044             5df60000  ldl     %0000(r15),rr6
> 0048             0b070002  cp      r7,#%0002
> 
> 
> The ASM code my C file generates is:
> 
> 0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
> 0044                 1df6  ldl     @r15,rr6
> 0046             0b070002  cp      r7,#%0002
> 
> keep in mine, that r15 is considered as the "stack pointer".
> 
> I wonder how to get the ldl from the original binary.
> I also tried to declare argv with "char *argv[]" which
> resulted in the same code. Forcing the compiler to store
> argv into a register by using the "register" keyword results
> in completly different code:
> 
> (sp = stack pointer = r15)
> 
> #17 adb unlink
> ADB: P8000 1.6
> ? 0x0042/i
> %0042:          dec     sp,#6
> ?
> %0044:          ld      %0004(sp),r14
> ?
> %0048:          ld      %0002(sp),r7
> ?
> %004c:          ld      r14,r6
> ?
> %004e:          cp      r7,#%0002
> ? $q
> #18
> 
> 
> Maybe  the C compiler used to compile /etc/unlink differs from
> the C compiler shipped with the system (maybe an older version)
> but I don't want this to be true for now ;)
> 
> Anyone with deeper ASM and C knowledge than me sees what could
> be done here?
> 
> Before someone asks - yes I'm sure the source file was in C
> and not ASM based on the whatstr. Symboltable of the original
> /etc/unlink is empty as well (striped binary).
> 
> Regards, Oliver

I don't tought that you are still trying on this problem Olli :-)
My opinion is, that they really used an earlier compiler version
for compiling some of the files..
BTW: Is the C-development package identically over the different WEGA
versions? Maybe an older Wega will compile this like you want?
We both know that the compiler stuff is still very green on those
systems (Wega/Zeus), it isn't unlikly that there changes in the code
generator stuff.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Sun Dec 18 17:25:50 2011
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 00:25:50 +0100
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <20111218225738.GB42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <20111218225738.GB42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219002550.Horde.0nFtWaQd9PdO7nZ_MWely-A@avocado.salatschuessel.net>



Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de> wrote:

> I don't tought that you are still trying on this problem Olli :-)

I found http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72 some days ago which gave
me a feeling of "lets try again" ;)

> My opinion is, that they really used an earlier compiler version
> for compiling some of the files..

Might be the case. Especially when you look through the disassembled
programms and you see that the programs are compiled with different
startup routines (crt0.s). Some programs are compiled using a PLZ/ASM
startup routine, some are compiled using a C-Assembler module. Some
modules containing a *whatstr[] some dont... really looks like Zilog
just recompiled programs when something changed and not recompiled
everything for a new version of ZEUS (what this WEGA is). This sucks
man ;) I want to get a 1:1 compilation result :/
With different crt0.s I can cope - with compilers generating different
ASM code I can't.

sync(M) was easy ;)

   #81 cas -u -o compat1crt.o compat1crt.s
   #82 cc -O -c sync.c
   #83 ld -o sync -e start compat1crt.o sync.o -lc
   #84 strip sync
   #85 cmp sync /bin/sync
   #86


> BTW: Is the C-development package identically over the different WEGA
> versions? Maybe an older Wega will compile this like you want?

I'm not sure about WEGA versions < 3.0 but 3.0 and 3.1 have the same
C-Compiler. I'm pretty sure The WEGA-crew didn't had any sourcefiles
to their operating system. I talked once to Peter Hoge (The Kernel
developer of WEGA) and he told me all they did was disassembling
stuff they needed to change and then re-inventing the wheel
(basically doing what I'm doing now). They had no sources. Just
access to a S8000 system where they stole.... err.... "adjusted"
the operating system from ;)

   Regards, Oliver



From als at thangorodrim.de  Sun Dec 18 19:22:06 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:22:06 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>
 <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219012206.GB1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 08:52:03PM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> MikeS wrote:
> 
> > ---- Original message:
> > Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
> > From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> > 
> > >Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> > >represents.
> > 
> > Why?
> > 
> > What is so terribly wrong with using the file's _name_ to describe the type
> > of data a file represents, so that those "humans" that you seem to disdain
> > elsewhere can also know and work with its type, not just the computer?
> 
> You ask me what's wrong? Never heard of a file called "your_win.jpg.exe" for
> example and was most Windoze users are doning with such a file and how its
> name is displayed on most windoze machines?
> Wasn't Windoze NT DOD certified for security with the included restriction
> that the computer has to stand in a closed room without any network connected to
> itand without access from people to his Console?
> Nobody has read the footnotes it seems, it was certified, so what..

Well, that one was a particularly silly joke, IIRC:
 - Windows NT 4.0
 - on a specific Compaq machine that is now long out of production (yes,
   the certification was for the entire setup)
 - no network
 - no printer
 - no removable media (i.e. CDROM, floppy)
 - only keyboard, mouse and monitor attach
 - %SYSTEMROOT% write-only, therefore
   - the printer spool system doesn't work (fine, there is no printer
     attached anyway)
   - you cannot, for instance, install Microsoft Office since it
     want to drop files there
 - What _can_ you do with it? Log in, smile at the auditors, log out.

> Or read about the Navy smartship project and the USS Yorktown...
> The solgan was "Why you need a Saiddam when you have a Bill?"

Alternatively, since around that time the CGI work for the Titanic movie
was done on Linux renderfarms: "Linux renders ships. Windows renders
ships useless." ;-)

> Do you think there was change in their Quality of Software since then?
> How many percent of compute power world wide is used for virus scanners
> only now? There are many older computers that are unusable now only
> because of the compute power that the virus scanner is needing, slowing
> down the entire thing.

And then there are silly requirements from "above" to run online virus
scanners on Unix servers ... BTST.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From als at thangorodrim.de  Sun Dec 18 19:30:03 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 02:30:03 +0100
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1324157662.99694.YahooMailRC@web82401.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <20111218184624.GA41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111219013003.GC1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:14:22AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 18 Dec 2011 at 19:46, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > He was loughing loudly, Frolyt builds electrolytics here since ages..
> > The recipe of the electrolyte is top secret.
> 
> It's amazing to me that in my entire life, I have never run across a 
> Frolyt capacitor.  Until the rise of China and Japan, it has been 
> brands such as Sprague, Cornell-Duplier, Electrovox, Mallory, etc.  

Hmm, from the names I'd guess that's pure american.

> Afterwards, Nichicon, Elna and the other usual suspects.

Sure. How many made-in-the-eastern-bloc capacitors did you see at all?
Probably very, very few ;-)

> Frolyt must be very specialized.

Well, according to their website, only 30% of their revenue is from export,
so they mostly sell to customers in germany (and, at a guess, probably mostly
industrial customers at that). Founded in 1947 in what was then east germany,
I would not be surprised if a significant fraction of their foreign customers
was to be found toward the east (eastern europe and russia).

As a general rule, those east german companies that survived the 1989
re-unification as an independent company tended to be very, very good
at what they were doing.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 20:02:02 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:02:02 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>
 <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <395FEF96-4388-4C25-BB3F-793ECE91B566@gmail.com>

On Dec 18, 2011, at 2:52 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Sorry for my broken english, never learned it in a shool or so, it's
> entirely from using unixoid OS's and communicateing with people like you
> over the net. Proably it's still better as your german :-)
> I had russian in the shool but had never to use it so I forgot most of
> it.

Well.  It's still better than the written English of most American university students (I should know, I've had to grade their papers relatively recently; they seem to think that commas are a kind of condiment for words).  I wouldn't worry much about it.

Incidentally, I have a wonderful book on the history of semiconductor engineering (eponymously titled) by Bo Lojek and published by Springer.  It very clearly never got the attention of a native English-speaking editor, but I found that if I read it with a Russian (or other Slavic) accent in my head, it made things a lot clearer.  For you, if I read your text with a German accent, it makes perfect sense. :-)

- Dave




From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 18 20:07:07 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 18:07:07 -0800
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <20111219013003.GC1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111219013003.GC1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EEE2BCB.8965.1B62A1A@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Dec 2011 at 2:30, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> Well, according to their website, only 30% of their revenue is from
> export, so they mostly sell to customers in germany (and, at a guess,
> probably mostly industrial customers at that). Founded in 1947 in what
> was then east germany, I would not be surprised if a significant
> fraction of their foreign customers was to be found toward the east
> (eastern europe and russia).

In general, the US shunned a lot of DDR trade, but there were 
exceptions.  Photo equipment, particularly lenses and Exakta cameras 
from the 1960s were readily available as well as musical instruments 
(for example, B&S tubas from that time still have a legendary 
reputation). I think a lot of the products made in the DDR using 
1930's and 1940's designs and manufacturing techniques were valued 
quite highly.  (The same might be said of post-1945 Sudeten-based 
Czech goods--for decades, they went on using the old German designs 
and techniques while the rest of the world moved on.

I was thinking about the amount of Telefunken, Grundig, Siemens and 
Bosch gear that I've seen over the years and never having seen a 
Prolyt capacitor.  I suspect that before 1990, very few GDR firms 
used DDR components.

--Chuck



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 20:09:49 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:09:49 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111219012206.GB1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <mailman.602.1324141521.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <92DE4E7308AF44EA8D720E729B4209D9@vl420mt>
 <20111218195203.GD41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219012206.GB1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <7ADE1387-75D7-49E2-A56D-C29D45A736BE@gmail.com>

On Dec 18, 2011, at 8:22 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

>> Wasn't Windoze NT DOD certified for security with the included restriction
>> that the computer has to stand in a closed room without any network connected to
>> itand without access from people to his Console?
>> Nobody has read the footnotes it seems, it was certified, so what..
> 
> Well, that one was a particularly silly joke, IIRC:
> - Windows NT 4.0
> - on a specific Compaq machine that is now long out of production (yes,
>   the certification was for the entire setup)

(see the discussion a few weeks ago about why a VAXStation 4000/96 goes for thousands of dollars on Ebay when a 4000/90 is lucky to fetch $300)

> - no network
> - no printer
> - no removable media (i.e. CDROM, floppy)
> - only keyboard, mouse and monitor attach
> - %SYSTEMROOT% write-only, therefore
>   - the printer spool system doesn't work (fine, there is no printer
>     attached anyway)
>   - you cannot, for instance, install Microsoft Office since it
>     want to drop files there
> - What _can_ you do with it? Log in, smile at the auditors, log out.

We're doing a project for a Navy contractor right now.  This is supposed to be a real-time system that assists in the instrument landing of planes on carriers, so its realtime performance is kind of important.  One of their few competent software people asked for Green Hills Integrity and got told that they'd be using Windows XP Embedded instead.

He managed to talk them down to at least Red Hat (not that that's real-time in any sense, but still...)  We still can't put any Linux machines on the internal network because the auditing requirements for Linux systems pretty much don't exist (or where they do, the goalposts move weekly so it's impossible to keep up).  You're also not allowed to have USB flash drives on base, though curiously there are some exceptions for USB hard drives (because those are less likely to walk off with sensitive documents?).  We have to transfer files between machines via CD now on balky CD writers which have about a 30% yield.

My tax dollars at work...


- Dave




From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Dec 18 20:32:39 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:32:39 -0500
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 52
In-Reply-To: <20111218184930.GB41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <1324147230.90770.YahooMailRC@web82406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
 <4EECE7C2.8010909@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111218184930.GB41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEEA247.3070002@telegraphics.com.au>

On 18/12/11 1:49 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Toby Thain wrote:
>
>> On 17/12/11 1:40 PM, spasticcolin-cctalk at yahoo.com wrote:
>>> ...When it first started
>>> happening, I heard the excuse it was a case of industrial espionage
>>> gone wrong where an ingredient was left out of the recipe...
>>>
>>> at the time I heard 3 guys from the factory got together and stole 3 parts
>>> of
>>> the formula from a tiawanese factory and defected to mainland china for a
>>> $1M
>>> bounty. But they didn't know of a 4th part; the corrosion inhibitor.
>>> Without the
>>> 4th part the caps were supposed to little time bombs, slowly eating away at
>>> their aluminum cases. I do know I woke up one night after having a dream of
>>> popcorn popping only to find a ATX p/s with caps going off like popcorn in
>>> the
>>> room next door. I unplugged the PC and put it in the bath tub and went
>>> back to
>>> sleep. Changed out the p/s the next day and it worked fine.
>>>
>>
>> Right, but the problem I'm talking about is the systemic crime, not some
>> particular heist. Same kind of mentality and people is responsible, though.
>>
>> --T
>
> You may take a look to an actual mainboard. Mostly there are unused
> Places for capacitors in the CPU Voltage Converters.
> They know that the condensers will fail and optimizing the time until that
> by not solderin all caps in. The ripple will kill them short after the
> warranty is over.

Yes, an excellent example. Built to fail.

--Toby

>
> Regards,
>
> Holm
>



From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com  Sun Dec 18 22:32:19 2011
From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:32:19 -0700
Subject: recreating C source from binary
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
Message-ID: <0B5434C7F0CF4BCE9DC6708873131970@RANGER1>

Nothing new to add, except a link for those of us that have
interest, but not enough Zilog experience.

(Assembler manual)
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/zilog/z8000/Z8000Tech.pdf

>
> char whatstr[] = "@[$]unlink.c  2.1  07/23/82 21:19:30 - 87wega3.2";
>
> main(argc, argv)
> int argc;
> char **argv;
> {
>         if(argc!=2) {
>                 write(2, "Usage: /etc/unlink name\n", 24);
>                 exit(1);
>         }
>         unlink(argv[1]);
>         exit(0);
> }
>
> The original ASM code for the beginning of main() until the argc
> check is:
>
> 0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
> 0044             5df60000  ldl     %0000(r15),rr6     ;Keven-X mode 
> Indexed
> 0048             0b070002  cp      r7,#%0002
>
>
> The ASM code my C file generates is:
>
> 0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
> 0044                 1df6  ldl     @r15,rr6                   ;Keven-IR 
> mode Indirect Register
> 0046             0b070002  cp      r7,#%0002

Since the 1st C code is the  "cp r7,#%0002",
I say the line before comes from the definition of argv.

trying      main ( int argc, char *argv[] )      might be an option.
using "register" is another - but you explored that.
long shot  in using static
  main (argc, argv)
   int argc;
   static char** argv;
{
Other modifiers "volatile", "const", "auto" might be possible.

hmm - const might be another good choice -
with argv being placed onto the stack - as in a "fixed" location.

Keven Miller




From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 23:18:02 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 23:18:02 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>

spoted this under the miss labeled as rlo2 instead of rl02 anyhow i nabbed
2 theres 8 left of the 10 avail for 9.50 each

ebay auction number
330656553200


thought u guys like to know


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 23:26:48 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:26:48 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>

they're really cheap. good find!
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/19 Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>

> spoted this under the miss labeled as rlo2 instead of rl02 anyhow i nabbed
> 2 theres 8 left of the 10 avail for 9.50 each
>
> ebay auction number
> 330656553200
>
>
> thought u guys like to know
>


From mokuba at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 23:32:38 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 00:32:38 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>

And they're all gone. DAMN that was quick!

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger <oe5ewl at gmail.com> wrote:
> they're really cheap. good find!
> --
> Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
> Operating System Collector
> Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
> Homepage: www.eichberger.org
>
>
>
> 2011/12/19 Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>
>> spoted this under the miss labeled as rlo2 instead of rl02 anyhow i nabbed
>> 2 theres 8 left of the 10 avail for 9.50 each
>>
>> ebay auction number
>> 330656553200
>>
>>
>> thought u guys like to know
>>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From spc at conman.org  Sun Dec 18 23:37:05 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 00:37:05 -0500
Subject: Data General One: searching manuals and disk images
In-Reply-To: <4EEDCABF.20202@gmail.com>
References: <4EEDCABF.20202@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111219053705.GG5458@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great shadoooo once stated:
> Hello.
> I have a nice DG One portable computer; it's the 2T version, and appears 
> to be fully working.
> I doesn't have however manuals nor original OS disks for it, so I'm 
> asking if someone has something to share.
> It would be very interesting to find also copies of the CPM OS disks.
> Thanks
> Andrea

  I've got a Data General One, with manuals (both MS-DOS and techincal).  In
fact, it's a pretty complete package with an external floppy (5.25") and
thermal printer.  It's been at least ten years since I last fired it all up
though.

  -spc 


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 23:40:04 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:40:04 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi-_6aSW1hz7eeKoBXyRVGfBx6xiXRhtsd-N1yiDWN24fg@mail.gmail.com>

I considered buying one or two. But I thought too long, now they're in
another good home.,

But I didn't think that the sale would be _that_ quick.

--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/19 Gary Sparkes <mokuba at gmail.com>

> And they're all gone. DAMN that was quick!
>
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:26 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger <oe5ewl at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > they're really cheap. good find!
> > --
> > Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
> > Operating System Collector
> > Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
> > Homepage: www.eichberger.org
> >
> >
> >
> > 2011/12/19 Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> >
> >> spoted this under the miss labeled as rlo2 instead of rl02 anyhow i
> nabbed
> >> 2 theres 8 left of the 10 avail for 9.50 each
> >>
> >> ebay auction number
> >> 330656553200
> >>
> >>
> >> thought u guys like to know
> >>
>
>
>
> --
> Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
> KB3HAG
>


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Sun Dec 18 23:56:02 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 21:56:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au> <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112182155370.30890@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> Some sayed that the lead that gets trough the bullets of hunters and
> as plummet of fishing rods into the environment is much more than that from
> solder in electric waste...

Even then, that lead is not soluble.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 23:56:12 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 23:56:12 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>

figured you guys would like to know :)

anyhow now i need to find a drive for them and a card so i can atach it to
my 8a


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Sun Dec 18 23:59:38 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 23:59:38 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>

i bet the seller was shocked how fast they went

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 11:56 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>wrote:

> figured you guys would like to know :)
>
> anyhow now i need to find a drive for them and a card so i can atach it to
> my 8a
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 00:11:30 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 01:11:30 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2011, at 12:59 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote:

> i bet the seller was shocked how fast they went

Yes, considering that the auction still had 22+ days left on it. :-)

You can find some amazing things for amazing prices at estate sales.


- Dave



From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au  Mon Dec 19 00:36:05 2011
From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:36:05 +1100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <48810BE4-8AFF-4721-A0B8-97F3EFCF7CC0@kerberos.davies.net.au>


On 18/12/2011, at 3:47 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
> 
> DEC marketing was usurping the word "Open" because they noticed that customers were starting to want open things. They apparently thought (probably correctly) that putting "Open" in the name would trick potential customers and bring in more sales.  Other companies did the same thing, but I can't think of any others where the oxymoronic name has lasted as long.
> 
> Someone suggested that in this usage, "Open" isn't an adjective, but rather a verb, and the direct object isn't "VMS" but rather your wallet.
> 


DEC changed the name of VMS to OpenVMS to reflect its X/Open branding, compliance with Posix and X/Open Portability Guide 3.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 




From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 19 01:57:06 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:57:06 +0100
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <4EEE2BCB.8965.1B62A1A@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111219013003.GC1268@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EEE2BCB.8965.1B62A1A@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111219075706.GA12927@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sun, Dec 18, 2011 at 06:07:07PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> On 19 Dec 2011 at 2:30, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> 
> > Well, according to their website, only 30% of their revenue is from
> > export, so they mostly sell to customers in germany (and, at a guess,
> > probably mostly industrial customers at that). Founded in 1947 in what
> > was then east germany, I would not be surprised if a significant
> > fraction of their foreign customers was to be found toward the east
> > (eastern europe and russia).
> 
> In general, the US shunned a lot of DDR trade, but there were 
> exceptions.  Photo equipment, particularly lenses and Exakta cameras 
> from the 1960s were readily available as well as musical instruments 
> (for example, B&S tubas from that time still have a legendary 
> reputation). I think a lot of the products made in the DDR using 
> 1930's and 1940's designs and manufacturing techniques were valued 
> quite highly.  (The same might be said of post-1945 Sudeten-based 
> Czech goods--for decades, they went on using the old German designs 
> and techniques while the rest of the world moved on.
> 
> I was thinking about the amount of Telefunken, Grundig, Siemens and 
> Bosch gear that I've seen over the years and never having seen a 
> Prolyt capacitor.  I suspect that before 1990, very few GDR firms 
> used DDR components.

I'm pretty sure that basically all of them did, because DDR = GDR ;-)
DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik == GDR = German Democratic Republic.

Yes, having two countries calling them themselves "german republic" just
confused everybody so we did away with that in 1989.

But the above mentioned companies (Telefunken, Grundig, Siemens, Bosch)
were all west-german companies (FDR = Federal Republic of Germany) back
then. They may, however, have used some omponents from the GDR as quite
a bit of OEM production for west german companies was done in east germany,
which was important to bring in convertible currency (for some odd reason,
very few countries in the world accepted payment in transfer rubles *g*).

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Mon Dec 19 03:36:03 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:36:03 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <20111218224704.GA42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com> <m1RcNPj-000J4MC@p850ug1>
 <20111218224704.GA42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112191020010.29281@linuxserv.home>

On Sun, 18 Dec 2011, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> There are other companies where I don't have good experiences, Roederstein
> from Western Germany for Example, I had many many bad caps from them in the

Also known as ERO, short form for Ernst Roederstein.
Then there is Frako, Frankfurter Kondensatorenfabrik.
And WIMA (I think it's the short form of WIlhelm WesterMAnn)

Other brands like Hydra-Werk, Siemens or Bosch either don't exist or 
don't produce "ordinary" capacitors any more.

All of them still manufacture capacitors.

> I don't have such bad experiences with Frolyts, I still have some from 
> before the fall of the iron curtain and I still use them for repair old 
> devices (after checking the ESR).

And I buy them new to repair SMPS (PC and other ones). Buerklin has a 
rather good sortiment of Frolyts.

Christian


From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Mon Dec 19 03:51:15 2011
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:51:15 +0100
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <0B5434C7F0CF4BCE9DC6708873131970@RANGER1>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <0B5434C7F0CF4BCE9DC6708873131970@RANGER1>
Message-ID: <20111219105115.Horde.69gpAqQd9PdO7wkTaic68jA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>



Keven Miller <kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com> wrote:

>   static char** argv;

While the Compiler knows the keyword static, it is not allowed in the
paramter declaration it seems.

unlink.c":6: compiler error: bad argument
Compiler error in file unlink.c: Compiler error.

> Other modifiers "volatile", "const", "auto" might be possible.

all 3 keywords are unknown to this C-Compiler.

"unlink.c":5: syntax error
Error in file unlink.c: Error.  No assembly.

The C Compiler dates back to 1982 so it is kinda old ;)



From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 19 06:25:01 2011
From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 04:25:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FS. PDP 11/35 + RK05 units in Yorkshire
Message-ID: <1324297501.54207.YahooMailNeo@web65905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

I'm thinking of thinning down my PDP 11 collection a bit and have a nice PDP 11/35
unit which may be of interest. This is a collection only item in Yorkshire. This is in
good condition and fully functional. It is fitted with the max memory 128KW I think,
and the MMU. I also have the incredibly rare FPU for this unit, but its not fitted or
tested. Also available with the unit, three RK05 drives with disks, cables and the
driver cards (which are fitted to the 11/35). Other spares, parts available too including
a spare CPU set (minus the MMU and FPU).

This is a very tidy unit and as I say its fully functional, powers up cleanly, and even
has its original key. Fitted with a UK plug (European voltage) and can be powered from
regular mains.

Email if interested. Sorry no postage on these units, I cant even lift them never mind 
post them :)

From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 19 07:04:45 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:04:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <0B5434C7F0CF4BCE9DC6708873131970@RANGER1>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <0B5434C7F0CF4BCE9DC6708873131970@RANGER1>
Message-ID: <201112191304.IAA03466@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> 0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
>> 0044             5df60000  ldl     %0000(r15),rr6

>> 0042                 abf3  dec     r15,#4
>> 0044                 1df6  ldl     @r15,rr6

Is there any semantic difference between those two?  They look like two
different ways of writing the same operation.

> Since the 1st C code is the  "cp r7,#%0002",
> I say the line before comes from the definition of argv.

I doubt it can be pinned down that precisely.  The code I quoted above
is doubtless function prologue code, but I'd be surprised if there were
really a well-defined mapping at the "this instruction comes from this
variable, that instruction from that one" level of detail.

> trying      main ( int argc, char *argv[] )      might be an option.

That shouldn't help; as a function formal, char *argv[] is semantically
identical to char **argv.  (If the compiler doesn't have const, it's
almost certainly not going to have new-style arglists, if you're
talking about the new-style arglist rather than the change of spelling
of the type).  That's not to say it won't, though; compilers can be
surprising in what causes them to produce different code.

Optimization options might affect this; turning optimization off, or on
at various levels, might produce the assembly code you're looking for.
If none of that helps, all I can think of is the version difference
that's already been suggested.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 19 07:13:12 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:13:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112182155370.30890@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au> <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112182155370.30890@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <201112191313.IAA03642@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Some sayed that the lead that gets trough the bullets of hunters and
>> as plummet of fishing rods into the environment is much more than
>> that from solder in electric waste...
> Even then, that lead is not soluble.

About as soluble as the lead in solder, no?  Or does the presence of
the tin make the lead more soluble?

In any case, it's soluble enough to be a problem.  That's why they
don't make water pipes out of lead any longer.  Not much dissolves, but
it doesn't take much.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From spedraja at ono.com  Mon Dec 19 07:24:30 2011
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:24:30 +0100
Subject: FS. PDP 11/35 + RK05 units in Yorkshire
In-Reply-To: <1324297501.54207.YahooMailNeo@web65905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
References: <1324297501.54207.YahooMailNeo@web65905.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACytpF9RaehXsQ4HOb9scC3u+mTJCuSXQ6vV3k_EkyTdKJMfgw@mail.gmail.com>

2011/12/19 silvercreekvalley <silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com>

>
> Email if interested. Sorry no postage on these units, I cant even lift
> them never mind
> post them :)
>

This put me out. I live in Spain (iin one place connected by Ferry Boat
with the UK) :-(

Regards
SPc


From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com  Mon Dec 19 07:58:23 2011
From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 06:58:23 -0700
Subject: recreating C source from binary
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
Message-ID: <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>

One other thing I've noticed is that if your C compiler
has optimization switches  "-O", 
that will generate different code as well.

Something else to try.

Keven Miller




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 08:08:44 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:08:44 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <D8F7F095-4BB3-4933-91F7-FD22556B4544@gmail.com>

On Dec 16, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Mouse wrote:

>> For a basic example, if "rm" could know it was passed "*" as an
>> argument it could [] protect the user [...]
> 
> I think it's no coincidence that most Lisp systems provide a way to
> write not only functions that eval their arguments, but `functions'
> that get passed their arguments unevaled.
> 
> Some of the reasons for this have no analog here.  But some are fairly
> closely analogous.
> 
> If we could invent some way for a program to indicate, pre-exec, that
> it wants unglobbed (`unevaled') arguments, this might be doable.

You can; I certainly have to pass that to "find" often enough.  Just encase your argument in quotes, e.g.:

find . -name "*.tar.gz"

That's actually how I discovered that the shell was expanding the arguments rather than the program.

Of course, that doesn't "fix" programs that aren't expecting to expand wildcards, because they'll just try to operate on a file called "*.tar.gz" (which is a valid filename; if I do a 'touch "*.foo"', a file called "*.foo" exists in my directory).  And it doesn't change the default behavior of programs if the arguments are passed unprotected.

>> (Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)
> 
> Har.  Anyone who thinks Unix gurus never make typos is clearly not a
> Unix guru.

That's why Unix commands are mostly two characters; it's either to minimize the possibility of a typo, or maximize the fun when you make one (for example, when I'm off by one, "fg" becomes "df", which is fairly innocuous, but one could feasibly accidentally do an "rm" or something by mistake).

- Dave


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 08:11:17 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:11:17 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111217113844.GB30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217113844.GB30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4D1848D4-FFF7-459C-8224-4C9EB55E3BE1@gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2011, at 6:38 AM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

> I'm perfectly willing to admit that Unix not only lets you shoot yourself
> in the foot, it gives you an assortment of guns already loaded and pointed
> in the proper direction.
>     -- Michael Wojcik <michael.wojcik at merant.com> in alt.folklore.computer

The one I'd always heard (though it's not 100% identical in spirit) was "Unix gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot".

- Dave


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 08:19:04 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:19:04 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

>> In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already available, just
>> use "rm -i".
>> 
>>>  Even if it is slightly more work, think of the tradeoff
>>> that's being made: you're saving every Unix user the pain of
>>> accidentally screwing themselves via a typo -- and just as evidenced
>>> by responses on this list, *everyone* (well, mostly everyone) has
>>> managed to do this at least once or knows someone who has.
>> Live and learn. And pain is a very powerful mnemonic fixative ;-)
> 
> I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that "real" Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve* it.  It's computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm concerned...

I don't think the idea is that "real Unix users never make mistakes", it's that they learn from their mistakes.  I've certainly burned and/or cut myself pretty badly in the kitchen with hot objects and very sharp knives that I've learned to be more careful.  So far I haven't lost any fingers.  In Unix, the knives are out and they're sharp enough that you won't notice you've cut off your files until they're gone.

- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 08:21:36 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:21:36 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouh! aha.com> <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:39 PM, allison wrote:

> On the other hand VMS was/is trying to maintain a reputation of 24x365 and M$ was reboot often and keep the reset switch on the
> front of the machine.  To have a machine that can do 24x365 you need good hardware and all along there were PCs up to the task
> but the OSs common were not so robust.  From my perspecive at one time I had the luck of running VMS, One of the sorta unix (on pC)
> servers and NT4.51, VMS the biggest job was keeping the power supplied to the box and occasion new product additions, The unix PC
> was fairly stable but would suffer from disk and IO issues, the NT3.51 box was same hardware and added BSOD and memory leaks
> requiring reboots every week or application hangs never minding keeping at it to insure security.   Also the VMS machine I could
> develop and deploy often without neededing to write a line of compiled code as DCL was usually more than enough.

Ironic, considering Dave Cutler was the chief NT architect.




From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 10:37:15 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:37:15 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
> >> In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already available, just
> >> use "rm -i".
> >> 
> >>>  Even if it is slightly more work, think of the tradeoff
> >>> that's being made: you're saving every Unix user the pain of
> >>> accidentally screwing themselves via a typo -- and just as evidenced
> >>> by responses on this list, *everyone* (well, mostly everyone) has
> >>> managed to do this at least once or knows someone who has.
> >> Live and learn. And pain is a very powerful mnemonic fixative ;-)
> > 
> > I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that "real" Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve* it.  It's computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm concerned...
> 
> I don't think the idea is that "real Unix users never make mistakes", it's that they learn from their mistakes.  I've certainly burned and/or cut myself pretty badly in the kitchen with hot objects and very sharp knives that I've learned to be more careful.  So far I haven't lost any fingers.  In Unix, the knives are out and they're sharp enough that you won't notice you've cut off your files until they're gone.
> 
> - Dave
> 

That's only one half of the story: Everyone knows that backups of
data are urgently nececcary...... after the first HD crash.
Your knifes aren't a problem if you ahve backups.

Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 19 10:26:35 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 08:26:35 -0800
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <20111219075706.GA12927@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <mailman.1.1324144809.16826.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <4EEE2BCB.8965.1B62A1A@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111219075706.GA12927@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EEEF53B.19354.F8999@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Dec 2011 at 8:57, Alexander Schreiber wrote:

>> I'm pretty sure that basically all of them did, because DDR = GDR 
;-)
> DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik == GDR = German Democratic
> Republic.

Only 20 years and I forget the alphabet soup that divided East and 
West. :(  I must be slipping.  FRG or BRD for the West it is then.  
My apologies; I do not know what I must have been thinking.

--Chuck

P.S. Speaking of alphabet soup, I notice that the DPRK has themselves 
a new head dumpling...


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 10:51:29 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:51:29 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <FE1609EC-9FD2-4C19-9DE0-88F4F84C21D9@gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> That's only one half of the story: Everyone knows that backups of
> data are urgently nececcary...... after the first HD crash.
> Your knifes aren't a problem if you ahve backups.

I actually only *really* caught the backup bug about two years ago, after an errant third-party script meant to apply patches to GCC for AVR compilation ended up doing an "rm -rf ~/*" or something similar.  I only realized when it started spitting out permissions errors for some root-owned files in there.

I actually had backups, but they were through Mozy, which was terrible; pulling 80 gigs of data through a 1 MB/sec or less connection was painful, especially since it was my laptop which meant I had to do it piecemeal.  Never again.

> 
> Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
> in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
> 1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
> on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
> impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...

I've heard very good things about CrashPlan.  They let you run on local disks or LAN machines for free, but they also have a pretty attractive offsite solution.  Never used them, but Neil Gaiman does. :-)

On OS X, TIme Machine is fantastic.  It's actually brilliantly simple; it just makes hard links to the files for each iteration (except the modified ones, which it copies) so that you have a working image for each backup that is indistinguishable from a non-incremental backup (and the hard links only take up the space of an inode each).  It's so simple that I'm surprised I'd never seen it anywhere else.


- Dave




From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Mon Dec 19 11:50:16 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:50:16 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/19/2011 8:37 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> David Riley wrote:
>
>> On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>>> I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that "real" Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve* it.  It's computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm concerned...
>> I don't think the idea is that "real Unix users never make mistakes", it's that they learn from their mistakes.  I've certainly burned and/or cut myself pretty badly in the kitchen with hot objects and very sharp knives that I've learned to be more careful.  So far I haven't lost any fingers.  In Unix, the knives are out and they're sharp enough that you won't notice you've cut off your files until they're gone.
>>
>> - Dave
>>
> That's only one half of the story: Everyone knows that backups of
> data are urgently nececcary...... after the first HD crash.
> Your knifes aren't a problem if you ahve backups.

So I should backup my files before I do anything on UNIX, just in case I 
make a typo.

>
> Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
> in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
> 1,44MB Disk please).

You... uh, do realize that PC hardware is capable of running tape 
drives, and various other large-capacity writable media, right?  It's 
not 1987.  (Oh wait, you could use tape drives on PCs in 1987 as well.)


> Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
> on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
> impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...

This is so incorrect I'm not even going to bother bringing you up to 
date. (I get the feeling you wouldn't listen anyway.)

- Josh


>
> Regards,
>
> Holm


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Mon Dec 19 11:52:10 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:52:10 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <D8F7F095-4BB3-4933-91F7-FD22556B4544@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <00cf01ccb52f$0b5a7630$13fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCF1GiNLsMSoL9P+nrV9xonCMNRNRJE61ArpOK_p+UrvLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE1263F.6060207@neurotica.com>
 <CAMTenCH3vT-w3SvDKh5CK03skX9XUrC7=Bduzcac0aHcnhORHQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <D8F7F095-4BB3-4933-91F7-FD22556B4544@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF79CA.6030300@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/19/2011 6:08 AM, David Riley wrote:
>
>>> (Yes I know Unix gurus never make typos, it's purely hypothetical.)
>> Har.  Anyone who thinks Unix gurus never make typos is clearly not a
>> Unix guru.
> That's why Unix commands are mostly two characters; it's either to minimize the possibility of a typo, or maximize the fun when you make one (for example, when I'm off by one, "fg" becomes "df", which is fairly innocuous, but one could feasibly accidentally do an "rm" or something by mistake).

If every command was as short as possible it would maximize the 
possibility of a typo actually having unintended behavior (rather than 
"a 'not found' error).  Sounds great to me!

- Josh




From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Mon Dec 19 11:55:49 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 09:55:49 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF7AA5.4090802@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/19/2011 6:19 AM, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>>> In that case of rm, the "training wheels on" mode is already available, just
>>> use "rm -i".
>>>
>>>>   Even if it is slightly more work, think of the tradeoff
>>>> that's being made: you're saving every Unix user the pain of
>>>> accidentally screwing themselves via a typo -- and just as evidenced
>>>> by responses on this list, *everyone* (well, mostly everyone) has
>>>> managed to do this at least once or knows someone who has.
>>> Live and learn. And pain is a very powerful mnemonic fixative ;-)
>> I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that "real" Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve* it.  It's computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm concerned...
> I don't think the idea is that "real Unix users never make mistakes", it's that they learn from their mistakes.  I've certainly burned and/or cut myself pretty badly in the kitchen with hot objects and very sharp knives that I've learned to be more careful.  So far I haven't lost any fingers.  In Unix, the knives are out and they're sharp enough that you won't notice you've cut off your files until they're gone.

You've just reiterated what Alexander said, only using Knives as an 
example.  I still don't buy it.  Cutting off your fingers would just 
make typos more prevalent anyway :).

- Josh

>
> - Dave
>
>
>


From kseiner at tele2.at  Mon Dec 19 11:56:50 2011
From: kseiner at tele2.at (Klaus Seiner)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:56:50 +0100
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
Message-ID: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>

Maybe someone has a spare pair of mounting rails for a DEC RK05 drive, so
that I can finally mount it into my H950 rack?

Offers from all over the world accepted :)        (I'm located in
Austria/Europe)

- Klaus




From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 11:59:44 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:59:44 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <FE1609EC-9FD2-4C19-9DE0-88F4F84C21D9@gmail.com>
References: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FE1609EC-9FD2-4C19-9DE0-88F4F84C21D9@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111219175944.GC48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > That's only one half of the story: Everyone knows that backups of
> > data are urgently nececcary...... after the first HD crash.
> > Your knifes aren't a problem if you ahve backups.
> 
> I actually only *really* caught the backup bug about two years ago, after an errant third-party script meant to apply patches to GCC for AVR compilation ended up doing an "rm -rf ~/*" or something similar.  I only realized when it started spitting out permissions errors for some root-owned files in there.
> 
> I actually had backups, but they were through Mozy, which was terrible; pulling 80 gigs of data through a 1 MB/sec or less connection was painful, especially since it was my laptop which meant I had to do it piecemeal.  Never again.


Yea, which one doesn't know a story like this :-)
...but still better than nothing at all.
> 
> > 
> > Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
> > in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
> > 1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
> > on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
> > impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...
> 
> I've heard very good things about CrashPlan.  They let you run on local disks or LAN machines for free, but they also have a pretty attractive offsite solution.  Never used them, but Neil Gaiman does. :-)
> 
> On OS X, TIme Machine is fantastic.  It's actually brilliantly simple; it just makes hard links to the files for each iteration (except the modified ones, which it copies) so that you have a working image for each backup that is indistinguishable from a non-incremental backup (and the hard links only take up the space of an inode each).  It's so simple that I'm surprised I'd never seen it anywhere else.
> 
> 
> - Dave
> 

Hmm, but it doesn't save your ass on harddisk failures. :-|

It is still a nice feature.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 12:04:55 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:04:55 +0100
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <4EEEF53B.19354.F8999@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20111219075706.GA12927@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EEEF53B.19354.F8999@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2011 at 8:57, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> 
> >> I'm pretty sure that basically all of them did, because DDR = GDR 
> ;-)
> > DDR = Deutsche Demokratische Republik == GDR = German Democratic
> > Republic.
> 
> Only 20 years and I forget the alphabet soup that divided East and 
> West. :(  I must be slipping.  FRG or BRD for the West it is then.  
> My apologies; I do not know what I must have been thinking.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> P.S. Speaking of alphabet soup, I notice that the DPRK has themselves 
> a new head dumpling...


:-)

No problem, we are all here to explain this again and again to you.

:-)

This remembers me to PCMCIA ...aka: People Can't Memorize Computer
Industries Acronyms...

That's what I can remember, not the original meaning.

DPRK .. Kim Yong Il....?

Saw a picture of his son that now is "The Guy" there...doesn't look funny
at all.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 12:06:03 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:06:03 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <20111219180603.GE48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Josh Dersch wrote:

> On 12/19/2011 8:37 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> >David Riley wrote:
> >
> >>On Dec 17, 2011, at 1:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> >>
> >>>I don't think it works that way.  Honestly, this is the attitude I'm 
> >>>talking about that I think needs correction -- the attitude that "real" 
> >>>Unix users never make mistakes and if they do, they *deserve* it.  It's 
> >>>computer-based Stockholm Syndrome as far as I'm concerned...
> >>I don't think the idea is that "real Unix users never make mistakes", 
> >>it's that they learn from their mistakes.  I've certainly burned and/or 
> >>cut myself pretty badly in the kitchen with hot objects and very sharp 
> >>knives that I've learned to be more careful.  So far I haven't lost any 
> >>fingers.  In Unix, the knives are out and they're sharp enough that you 
> >>won't notice you've cut off your files until they're gone.
> >>
> >>- Dave
> >>
> >That's only one half of the story: Everyone knows that backups of
> >data are urgently nececcary...... after the first HD crash.
> >Your knifes aren't a problem if you ahve backups.
> 
> So I should backup my files before I do anything on UNIX, just in case I 
> make a typo.

You got it. I think you get an car insurance too...before you drive.

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Dec 19 12:28:18 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:28:18 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>

I'm curious how many sectors / track these packs were supposed to have.  
The photo of the bottom clearly showed it was > 12 which is what I 
thought DEC used.

the Microdata systems always used 24 / track with 256 byte sectors.
Jim

On 12/18/2011 10:11 PM, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 19, 2011, at 12:59 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>
>> i bet the seller was shocked how fast they went
> Yes, considering that the auction still had 22+ days left on it. :-)
>
> You can find some amazing things for amazing prices at estate sales.
>
>
> - Dave
>
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 12:29:50 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:29:50 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111219175944.GC48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FE1609EC-9FD2-4C19-9DE0-88F4F84C21D9@gmail.com>
 <20111219175944.GC48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <53623A93-BCDE-4657-97C5-C952C641DA51@gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:

>> On OS X, TIme Machine is fantastic.  It's actually brilliantly simple; it just makes hard links to the files for each iteration (except the modified ones, which it copies) so that you have a working image for each backup that is indistinguishable from a non-incremental backup (and the hard links only take up the space of an inode each).  It's so simple that I'm surprised I'd never seen it anywhere else.
>> 
>> 
>> - Dave
>> 
> 
> Hmm, but it doesn't save your ass on harddisk failures. :-|
> 
> It is still a nice feature.

It does if you're using a separate disk. :-)  It doesn't, of course, cover the case in which both disks fail at once, e.g. if a fire or a meteor hits.  I'm not sure why there's no support for multiple, redundant backup disks.

- Dave




From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 12:52:11 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:52:11 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=i_H7itg0kzU4drBuDSO9ghs6=YQSoG6qP-u9oGDcM7g@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:56 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
> figured you guys would like to know :)
>
> anyhow now i need to find a drive for them and a card so i can atach it to
> my 8a

RL02 drives were common at DEC sites (more common in my experience
than RL01s, for example), but RL8A cards were somewhat unusual.  I
bought mine in the early 1980s for $600 to use with an RL01 (the
availability of which dried up right after I got it).

I have not seen an RL8A listed as available (for any price, even
"$CALL") on reseller sites since about 1997 (from the same sites that
_do_ have CPUs and MOS memory cards and other "common" OMNIBUS parts
for sale).

-ethan


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 19 13:00:12 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:00:12 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <201112191900.OAA13252@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> So I should backup my files before I do anything on UNIX, just in
> case I make a typo.

Sure.  But that's equally true on any other OS: backups always
recommended.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 13:00:25 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:00:25 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:28 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> I'm curious how many sectors / track these packs were supposed to have. ?The
> photo of the bottom clearly showed it was > 12 which is what I thought DEC
> used.

Are you perhaps thinking of RK05 cartridges?  Those have visible
notches on the hub and come in 12-sector versions for 16-bit hosts and
16-sector versions for 12-bit hosts (same number of bits per track,
just grouped differently).

The RL01 and RL02 use embedded servo data (with no way to restore that
in the field, so bulk-erased packs are useless in DEC drives).  The
stickers and handles are color coded (brown vs blue).  All other
external indicators are the same between the two types of packs.

http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html

> the Microdata systems always used 24 / track with 256 byte sectors.
> Jim

40 sectors per track, 256 byte sectors.  RL01s have 256 tracks per
surface, RL02s have 512 tracks per surface (different heads, and
either different boards inside, or same boards but different jumper
settings depending on the revision).  As a result, one can rig RL02s
to (safely) read RL01 packs, but I've never done it myself).

-ethan



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 19 13:04:13 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:04:13 -0800
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <20111219075706.GA12927@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>,
 <4EEEF53B.19354.F8999@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEF1A2D.21546.9FDBF3@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Dec 2011 at 19:04, Holm Tiffe wrote:

> DPRK .. Kim Yong Il....?

Is that the way it's pronouced in Germany?  As far as I know, the "J" 
in Kin Jong-il is a hard, English-like one in Korean, sort of a dzh 
sound.

--Chuck



From dm561 at torfree.net  Mon Dec 19 13:14:31 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:14:31 -0500
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
References: <mailman.610.1324250759.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <28BC7ABB771E4740BC6CDE59A7EA90C7@vl420mt>

Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:52:03 +0100
From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>

MikeS wrote:
> ---- Original message:
> Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
>
> > >Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> > >represents.
>
> > Why?
>
> > What is so terribly wrong with using the file's _name_ to describe the
> > type
> > of data a file represents, so that those "humans" that you seem to
> > disdain
> > elsewhere can also know and work with its type, not just the computer?

> You ask me what's wrong? Never heard of a file called "your_win.jpg.exe"
> for example and was most Windoze users are doning with such a file and how
> its name is displayed on most windoze machines?

I'm not a UNIX expert so I must have misunderstood; you mean UNIX cares
about file extensions after all and I can't name a UNIX executable
"your_win.jpg" ?

At least the modern DOS equivalent (which is what we're talking about,
remember?) *does* show the all-important .EXE in the file name, as will
Windows if you've enabled it. How does UNIX warn me at a quick glance?

...
<Half a dozen paragraphs of the traditional redundant and totally irrelevant
Microsoft-bashing drivel removed for readability>
...

> > BTW, I think this quote from Ritchie himself sums it up perfectly:
> > "Unix is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."
>
> > m

> Hmm, wasn't it "Unix IS user friendly, but it is a little restrictive what
> his friends are.."

Look it up! I think you'll find dozens of references, as well as to your
quote, e.g.
http://inagist.com/CodeWisdom/146592721312817153/
or
http://quotes.prolix.nu/Technology/Computers/

> PS:
> Sorry for my broken english, never learned it in a shool or so, it's
> entirely from using unixoid OS's and communicateing with people like you
> over the net.
> Proably it's still better as your german :-)

I doubt it; born and raised in Hamburg my German's actually pretty good.

m



From IanK at vulcan.com  Mon Dec 19 13:29:54 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:29:54 +0000
Subject: Anyone heard from/of Curt@atarimuseum.com? 
Message-ID: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B902CBBB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>

He and I were engaged in an email exchange that suddenly stopped, and I hope nothing unpleasant has befallen him.  Thanks -- Ian



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 13:42:21 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:42:21 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112191900.OAA13252@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112191900.OAA13252@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4E68003D-95CA-4279-9FD3-85E337EEB44C@gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2011, at 2:00 PM, Mouse wrote:

>> So I should backup my files before I do anything on UNIX, just in
>> case I make a typo.
> 
> Sure.  But that's equally true on any other OS: backups always
> recommended.

Right.  I've accidentally deleted the wrong files in an unfortunately permanent way on every GUI-driven OS I've ever used.  I don't think it's unique to Unix.

- Dave


From doc at vaxen.net  Mon Dec 19 13:46:06 2011
From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:46:06 -0600
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112172236.RAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu> <p06210204cb1293200822@[192.168.0.16]>
 <4EECEBC3.1090501@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112172236.RAA29162@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEF947E.3030107@vaxen.net>

On 12/17/11 4:36 PM, Mouse wrote:
>> Well, that and the fact that getting "rm" (or del) to behave the way
>> I suggest actually requires low-level changes to the shell's wildcard
>> expansion
>
> Yes.
>
>> (*and* thus would require a change to all all tools)
>
> No.
>
> There is no reason this couldn't be done by expanding wildcards as
> normal, but providing some way - which doesn't affect tools that don't
> choose to call it - for a program to get hold of its pre-globbing
> arglist, if its execer provided one.

   I hesitate to get into this discussion.

   Not only is there no reason it can't be done - for a program to have 
its own list of wildcards - but it has been done, and it's common. 
Simply write the regular expressions into the command itself.

   Running "grep" in a bash shell, for example, involves 2 levels of 
wildcard.  The shell's '?' and '*', and then grep's own list of regular 
expressions, which includes the wildcards '.' and '.*'.

> Then rm could use the new facility to see if any args were "*", or if
> there was only one arg and it's "*", or whatever.  Programs that don't
> know about the new way or don't want to muck with it continue to work
> the way they always have.  Of course it would need to be designed
> carefully so that execers that don't know about it don't break programs
> that try to use it, but that's doable.

   Using grep as an example again, one must escape special characters to 
be evaluated by grep so that the shell doesn't parse them, but it's very 
simple to do so.  *IFF* you understand what both the shell and grep are 
doing.


	Doc


From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Dec 19 13:46:09 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:46:09 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com>



On 12/19/2011 11:00 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:28 PM, jim s<jws at jwsss.com>  wrote:
>> I'm curious how many sectors / track these packs were supposed to have.  The
>> photo of the bottom clearly showed it was>  12 which is what I thought DEC
>> used.
> Are you perhaps thinking of RK05 cartridges?  Those have visible
> notches on the hub and come in 12-sector versions for 16-bit hosts and
> 16-sector versions for 12-bit hosts (same number of bits per track,
> just grouped differently).
I'm looking at the auction on epay

330656553200

which calls them out as RL02K packs and has a photo of the bottom of one of the packs.  The packs hub has what appears to be sector notches.

I didn't know that these 14" drives ever used the embedded servo technology.  I only encountered that on the 8" and 5" hard drive disks, and of course winchesters began being built with that technology rather than using a servo surface.

I though these were either 2311 or 2315 IBM type technology, but one could use the embedded technology, I suppose with 14" drives, though the real estate at the arial density would be as large or larger than the data fields with the oxides they were using.

As I said the comment was primarily on a photo on the above auction, which you probably need to look at and comment on while the pictures are up.  I'm not sure how to pass a photo along on this list.  I'll grab them off in case the epay poster is hosting them on their own servers.


> The RL01 and RL02 use embedded servo data (with no way to restore that
> in the field, so bulk-erased packs are useless in DEC drives).  The
> stickers and handles are color coded (brown vs blue).  All other
> external indicators are the same between the two types of packs.
>
> http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html
>
>> the Microdata systems always used 24 / track with 256 byte sectors.
>> Jim
> 40 sectors per track, 256 byte sectors.  RL01s have 256 tracks per
> surface, RL02s have 512 tracks per surface (different heads, and
> either different boards inside, or same boards but different jumper
> settings depending on the revision).  As a result, one can rig RL02s
> to (safely) read RL01 packs, but I've never done it myself).
>
> -ethan
thanks for the reply
JIm
>


From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Dec 19 14:02:00 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:02:00 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF9838.3060601@jwsss.com>



On 12/19/2011 11:00 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 1:28 PM, jim s<jws at jwsss.com>  wrote:
>> I'm curious how many sectors / track these packs were supposed to have.  The
>> photo of the bottom clearly showed it was>  12 which is what I thought DEC
>> used.
> Are you perhaps thinking of RK05 cartridges?  Those have visible
> notches on the hub and come in 12-sector versions for 16-bit hosts and
> 16-sector versions for 12-bit hosts (same number of bits per track,
> just grouped differently).
Here are the photos from the auction

http://photobucket.com/rl02

picture "data02" and "data04" have the hub in view.  Way more than 
either 12 or 16 sectors.  The 40 mentioned elsewhere in your reply, but 
not for RL02 seems to fit, but I'm not sure I can count how many notches 
are there.
Jim


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 14:12:27 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:12:27 -0500
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>
Message-ID: <4EEF9AAB.9040509@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 08:58 AM, Keven Miller wrote:
> One other thing I've noticed is that if your C compiler
> has optimization switches "-O", that will generate different code as well.

   I sure hope so, as that's kinda the point! ;)

           -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 14:14:36 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:14:36 -0500
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112191020010.29281@linuxserv.home>
References: <4EEDCB0E.22902.3C4513@cclist.sydex.com> <m1RcNPj-000J4MC@p850ug1>
 <20111218224704.GA42689@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112191020010.29281@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <4EEF9B2C.9060200@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 04:36 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
> Also known as ERO, short form for Ernst Roederstein.
> Then there is Frako, Frankfurter Kondensatorenfabrik.
> And WIMA (I think it's the short form of WIlhelm WesterMAnn)

   I've seen WIMA capacitors all my life; they are pretty common here.

          -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 14:20:59 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:20:59 +0100
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Klaus,

never seen a RK05 in the wild, but what are the HUGE differences to
the moderner Rack-Reels. I could supply this ones (HP or IBM, you
choose). Even a small workshop is available here if mechanical
corrections are to be made.

If you could provide a picture, I could search my project-boxes if I
find something suitable which could serve your needs until you find
the original ones.

Regards,
 Wolfgang

PS: I'm in Austria too. Located in Linz. There's Gerhard from
http://www.compuseum.at/ reading here too. He has also a nice
collection of '11 and '8 stuff.

2011/12/19, Klaus Seiner <kseiner at tele2.at>:
> Maybe someone has a spare pair of mounting rails for a DEC RK05 drive, so
> that I can finally mount it into my H950 rack?
>
> Offers from all over the world accepted :)        (I'm located in
> Austria/Europe)
>
> - Klaus
>
>
>


-- 
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 14:23:44 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:23:44 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouh! aha.com> <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
 <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF9D50.9030006@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 09:21 AM, David Riley wrote:
>> On the other hand VMS was/is trying to maintain a reputation of 24x365 and M$ was reboot often and keep the reset switch on the
>> front of the machine.  To have a machine that can do 24x365 you need good hardware and all along there were PCs up to the task
>> but the OSs common were not so robust.  From my perspecive at one time I had the luck of running VMS, One of the sorta unix (on pC)
>> servers and NT4.51, VMS the biggest job was keeping the power supplied to the box and occasion new product additions, The unix PC
>> was fairly stable but would suffer from disk and IO issues, the NT3.51 box was same hardware and added BSOD and memory leaks
>> requiring reboots every week or application hangs never minding keeping at it to insure security.   Also the VMS machine I could
>> develop and deploy often without neededing to write a line of compiled code as DCL was usually more than enough.
>
> Ironic, considering Dave Cutler was the chief NT architect.

   From what I'm told, current NT-based Windows bears little resemblance 
to what Dave Cutler actually intended, though.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Dec 19 14:25:29 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:25:29 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>

On 12/19/11 11:46 AM, jim s wrote:

> I though these were either 2311 or 2315 IBM type technology, but one could use the embedded technology

They are actually IBM 5440 physical packaging, first used on System/3.
The cylinder positioning uses an embedded servo, on track is hard sectored.




From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 19 14:42:21 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:42:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Backup is too hard"  (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can 
In-Reply-To: <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>

> Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
> in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
> 1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
> on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
> impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...

Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
hardware and software?



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Dec 19 14:46:00 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:46:00 -0800
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFA288.1070303@bitsavers.org>

On 12/19/11 12:20 PM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote:
> Klaus,
>
> never seen a RK05 in the wild, but what are the HUGE differences to
> the moderner Rack-Reels.

Chassis-Trak still exists.

http://generaldevices.thomasnet.com/viewitems/solid-bearing-slides/model-cthrs-br-non-pivoting-slide?





From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 14:54:20 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:54:20 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EEF9838.3060601@jwsss.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9838.3060601@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=MH1tNDrb2oQjr9EBOsTd82AZ9-hPA7EAAhMWOtE8hig@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:02 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>>> photo of the bottom clearly showed it was 12 which is what I thought
>>> DEC used.
>>
>> Are you perhaps thinking of RK05 cartridges? ?Those have visible
>> notches on the hub and come in 12-sector versions.. and
>> 16-sector versions
>
> Here are the photos from the auction
>
> http://photobucket.com/rl02

Ah, gotcha.  With 40 being such a large amount over 12, I had
incorrectly guessed you were looking at a different picture.

> picture "data02" and "data04" have the hub in view. ?Way more than either 12
> or 16 sectors. ?The 40 mentioned elsewhere in your reply, but not for RL02
> seems to fit, but I'm not sure I can count how many notches are there.

I counted 40 from data4.jpg (and I said 40 for both RL01 and RL02 but
perhaps my statement was insufficiently unambiguous - those drives
have different numbers of *tracks* but the identical number of sectors
per track).

-ethan



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 15:01:47 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:01:47 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
> On 12/19/11 11:46 AM, jim s wrote:
>
>> I though these were either 2311 or 2315 IBM type technology, but one could
>> use the embedded technology
>
> They are actually IBM 5440 physical packaging, first used on System/3.
> The cylinder positioning uses an embedded servo, on track is hard sectored.

Interesting.  I'm not surprised to learn the form factor came from an
IBM drive, but I'm now wondering how many other drives used the same
physical pack types and if they were all embedded servo or if any
could be formatted in the field (i.e. - if one has a degaussed pack,
_can_ it be re-used anywhere).

I don't have it anymore, but 20-ish years ago, someone gave me a drive
set that I _think_ was Plessy-badged, with one fixed platter and one
RL02-type top-loading pack.  If I'm right in remembering it took an
IBM 5440-style pack, I think I'm also right in remembering that you
could *not* put a DEC RL01 or RL02 pack inside and expect it to work -
you had to use packs formatted for that drive.  I don't think there
was a risk of damage, just a lack of successful functionality.

-ethan


From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Mon Dec 19 15:06:41 2011
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:06:41 +0100
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>
Message-ID: <20111219220641.Horde.tWTUJ6Qd9PdO76dhG0YBGS0@avocado.salatschuessel.net>



Keven Miller <kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com> wrote:

> One other thing I've noticed is that if your C compiler
> has optimization switches  "-O", that will generate different code as well.
>
> Something else to try.

Yeah - optimization has to be turned on. Otherwise completly different
code is generated. There are not much options

-Ol optimize loops
-Or optimize registers and loops
-O simple optimizsations

-O Levels like in modern compilers are not supported.

I tried all three -O switches if I'm not mistaken... no differences.

Finding someone with a ZEUS installation being able to send me the C-Compiler
from the system could help but... yeah - finding someone with ZEUS is like
believing in Santa Claus ;)


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 15:22:57 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:22:57 -0500
Subject: "Backup is too hard" (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can
In-Reply-To: <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGW138rETz+44koScEe=YnS7W7L3m2vVorTYuQ_GFv-sQQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:

> Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
> hardware and software?
>

VMWare ESX makes OS recovery kinda moot. We do a complete OS/App snapshot
every week, with user data mirroring. If an ESX box goes down, we just pull
up the images that went down on another machine, copy the user data over
from the mirror, and you're good. The whole operation takes a few minutes,
and can be completely automated.

Of course, you can do the same thing with Linux and Xen, but it isn't any
more difficult in Windows.


From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 19 15:48:35 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 13:48:35 -0800
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112191900.OAA13252@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EEF7958.1000305@mail.msu.edu>,
 <201112191900.OAA13252@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EEF40B3.26992.1365540@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Dec 2011 at 14:00, Mouse wrote:

> > So I should backup my files before I do anything on UNIX, just in
> > case I make a typo.
> 
> Sure.  But that's equally true on any other OS: backups always
> recommended.

Not backup, but sort of "sandbox" related--does anyone recall the 
little add-on gizmo for IDE drives that diverted writes to a 
different area of the disk and allowed you to commit them (or not)?

They were pretty handy, particularly on low-level platforms (such as 
MS-DOS) where access to I/O ports was not blocked by the hardware.

Do SATA versions of these things exist?

--Chuck


From useddec at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 15:52:25 2011
From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:52:25 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=MH1tNDrb2oQjr9EBOsTd82AZ9-hPA7EAAhMWOtE8hig@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9838.3060601@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmim=MH1tNDrb2oQjr9EBOsTd82AZ9-hPA7EAAhMWOtE8hig@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACwhfuM0xNZAKR39examQLQDTuNuitDcxLs0Nc8hWAM9s2OSzw@mail.gmail.com>

I have one or two of the RL8-A controllers left. I even know where
they are , but I can't get to them very easily right now.

They are getting hard to find, unlike  the Uni-bus and both Q-bus versions.

Paul

On 12/19/11, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:02 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>>>> photo of the bottom clearly showed it was 12 which is what I thought
>>>> DEC used.
>>>
>>> Are you perhaps thinking of RK05 cartridges? ?Those have visible
>>> notches on the hub and come in 12-sector versions.. and
>>> 16-sector versions
>>
>> Here are the photos from the auction
>>
>> http://photobucket.com/rl02
>
> Ah, gotcha.  With 40 being such a large amount over 12, I had
> incorrectly guessed you were looking at a different picture.
>
>> picture "data02" and "data04" have the hub in view. ?Way more than either
>> 12
>> or 16 sectors. ?The 40 mentioned elsewhere in your reply, but not for RL02
>> seems to fit, but I'm not sure I can count how many notches are there.
>
> I counted 40 from data4.jpg (and I said 40 for both RL01 and RL02 but
> perhaps my statement was insufficiently unambiguous - those drives
> have different numbers of *tracks* but the identical number of sectors
> per track).
>
> -ethan
>
>



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 19 15:57:17 2011
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:57:17 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>

From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, December 19, 2011 10:01 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>> On 12/19/11 11:46 AM, jim s wrote:
>>
>>> I though these were either 2311 or 2315 IBM type technology, but one 
>>> could
>>> use the embedded technology
>>
>> They are actually IBM 5440 physical packaging, first used on System/3.
>> The cylinder positioning uses an embedded servo, on track is hard 
>> sectored.
>
> Interesting.  I'm not surprised to learn the form factor came from an
> IBM drive, but I'm now wondering how many other drives used the same
> physical pack types and if they were all embedded servo or if any
> could be formatted in the field (i.e. - if one has a degaussed pack,
> _can_ it be re-used anywhere).
>
> I don't have it anymore, but 20-ish years ago, someone gave me a drive
> set that I _think_ was Plessy-badged, with one fixed platter and one
> RL02-type top-loading pack.  If I'm right in remembering it took an
> IBM 5440-style pack, I think I'm also right in remembering that you
> could *not* put a DEC RL01 or RL02 pack inside and expect it to work -
> you had to use packs formatted for that drive.  I don't think there
> was a risk of damage, just a lack of successful functionality.
>
> -ethan

I have an 11/05 which has a Perkin-Elmer drive just like the one you 
describe.
In the bottom is a fixed (non-removable platter) and in the top you can load 
an
"RL-style" cartridge. This is from memory, the system is in the old house 
...

The DG Nova3 that I have has also such a similar drive. I have "RL-style"
cartridges for it, so I could check the hub if there is interest.
So, it seems more manufactures used this concept and style disk. How the
interchangeability is ...? I don't know.

- Henk.

PS. RL01 cartridges are not brown, but grey. RL02 are as you said blue.
 



From nick.allen at comcast.net  Mon Dec 19 10:16:53 2011
From: nick.allen at comcast.net (Nick Allen)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 10:16:53 -0600
Subject: wanted: raised flooring for cheap
In-Reply-To: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RYLKu-0006be-LY@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF6375.5090809@comcast.net>

Found some raised flooring on craigslist, hope this helps:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/nby/bfs/2750119704.html


From jonas at otter.se  Mon Dec 19 13:49:01 2011
From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:49:01 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o, address?
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1324317609.38838.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1324317609.38838.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EEF952D.800@otter.se>


>> >      It may be, but CdS cells abound, and I don't see them going away
>> >  anytime soon.  There's so little cadmium in them that I really don't see
>> >  it ever being a problem.
> You and I know it's not a problem,. but that is hargly going to satisfy
> the non-scientific idiots we have in charge. I beleive that all CdS LDRs
> are not RoHS compliant ;-(. This doesn;'t affect home constructios (at
> least not in the UK), it does matter if you're going to use them commerially.
CdS cells have quite a few problems that have made them obsolete for 
photographic purposes: temperature dependence, slow response and memory 
effect. They need a significant time to adjust to a different level of 
illumination to give a normal response. The response becoming non-linear 
with age has also been reported. For a long time cameras have been using 
silicon photodiodes instead.

As an example of the memory effect, the manual for a Durst darkroom 
exposure meter, which I have just been given and which uses a CdS cell, 
says to illuminate the CdS cell immediately beneath the lens of the 
enlarger for 15-20 seconds before making a measurement.

They do work well all the same, most of my cameras that actually have an 
exposure meter use CdS cells. And they seem to be easily available.

/Jonas


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 16:01:44 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:01:44 -0500
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <20111219220641.Horde.tWTUJ6Qd9PdO76dhG0YBGS0@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>
 <20111219220641.Horde.tWTUJ6Qd9PdO76dhG0YBGS0@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
Message-ID: <4EEFB448.2020400@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 04:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:
> Finding someone with a ZEUS installation being able to send me the
> C-Compiler
> from the system could help but... yeah - finding someone with ZEUS is like
> believing in Santa Claus ;)

   I'm still kicking myself for selling my old System 8000 model 31.  It 
was a great system; I miss it a lot.  There wasn't really any such thing 
as "classic computing" then...it was just "my old machine", which I 
replaced with "my new machine". :-(

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Mon Dec 19 16:07:13 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:07:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Backup is too hard"  (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix
 can 
In-Reply-To: <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112191406050.22329@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:

>> Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
>> in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
>> 1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
>> on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
>> impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...
>
> Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
> hardware and software?

I don't know about older editions, but Win7 has this spiffy little "backup 
and recovery wizard" that not only backs up all your goodies to an 
external device, network share, etc, but it also will burn a bootable DVD 
in order to facilitate the recovery.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:11:37 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:11:37 -0500
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <B1B59EDB-B359-482A-8B68-56E3B6865FF0@mainecoon.com>
References: <4EEA1EDD.13369.181B296@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at
 Dec 15, 11 04:22:53 pm,
 <m1RbgDR-000J4BC@p850ug1> <4EEB6FC5.21904.17F3E4A@cclist.sydex.com>
 <B1B59EDB-B359-482A-8B68-56E3B6865FF0@mainecoon.com>
Message-ID: <66346FA7-A254-477A-8BA6-4AA977599620@gmail.com>

On Dec 16, 2011, at 7:26 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote:

>> And my opinion of OTA radio here in the US is 
>> even worse than that of OTA TV.
> 
> Amen to that, brother.

I haven't listened to OTA radio except for public radio for well over 3 years (unless it was in someone else's car) and I don't miss it at all.  I can't decide whether the music or the commercials were worse.

- Dave




From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Dec 19 16:14:23 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:14:23 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFB73F.1080700@jwsss.com>

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow<aek at bitsavers.org>  wrote:
>> On 12/19/11 11:46 AM, jim s wrote:
>>
>>> I though these were either 2311 or 2315 IBM type technology, but one could
>>> use the embedded technology
>> They are actually IBM 5440 physical packaging, first used on System/3.
>> The cylinder positioning uses an embedded servo, on track is hard sectored.
> Interesting.  I'm not surprised to learn the form factor came from an
> IBM drive, but I'm now wondering how many other drives used the same
> physical pack types and if they were all embedded servo or if any
> could be formatted in the field (i.e. - if one has a degaussed pack,
> _can_ it be re-used anywhere).
>
> I don't have it anymore, but 20-ish years ago, someone gave me a drive
> set that I _think_ was Plessy-badged, with one fixed platter and one
> RL02-type top-loading pack.  If I'm right in remembering it took an
> IBM 5440-style pack, I think I'm also right in remembering that you
> could *not* put a DEC RL01 or RL02 pack inside and expect it to work -
> you had to use packs formatted for that drive.  I don't think there
> was a risk of damage, just a lack of successful functionality.
>
> -ethan
>
>
Is this the drive that is about 20mb or so on the platter?  CDC had a 
drive that had one platter like this over 2 or 3 fixed and was 80mb 
total.  It used winchester heads, I think.  since the platter on top was 
spun by the same spindle as the fixed ones there had to be some 
different method of finding the data for the removable packs.  I never 
looked at the pack for sector marks.

I vaguely recall one of the CDC drives having a physical index, but the 
use of it in formatting data was optional.  We had a controller that 
would get on track when formatting and lay down the sectors with 0 data 
payload, and when we would do our verification, we would first re-record 
the format aligned with the index mark, then precess by 1/2 sector for 
each retry.  The dropouts were guaranteed to be permanent write splice 
errors, so we didn't worry about anything but getting a good track laid 
down if the first guess failed.

The controller interface and drive was SMD in that case.
Jim


From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Dec 19 16:15:44 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:15:44 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFB790.8050204@bitsavers.org>

On 12/19/11 1:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> I'm now wondering how many other drives used the same
> physical pack types and if they were all embedded servo

The RL0x were one of the few designs that used embedded servo.
I'm pretty sure they patented their design. #4390912 appears
to be the patent.

Pertec, Wango, etc. that had top-loading pack drives used the
same optical positioners that the front-loaders used. Diablo's
40 series used the rotary actuators like the 30 series did, but
they came out well before the DEC RL drives.

I'd have to do some digging to find out what the CDC Hawk used
for cylinder positioning.




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:23:19 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:23:19 -0500
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>

On Dec 17, 2011, at 11:23 PM, John Foust wrote:

> At 03:10 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>> But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in landfill by default? That's the unsolved part. 
> 
> Some countries and states have enacted laws to require it.  In Japan, for
> example, you pre-pay a recycling fee when you buy an appliance, and retailers
> and manufacturers are required to accept used appliances.  In my state,
> Wisconsin, you can't put e-waste in the trash any longer.  It has to go to
> a special e-waste collection site.  My waste management company doesn't
> seem to care if I put a bare metal PC case in the trash.  If it showed any
> wires or circuit boards, I don't think they'd take it.

Every time I've bought tires here, I've paid a per-tire recycling fee.

We're supposed to deliver our e-waste to special collection facilities that are open at various locations about once a month; you can specially request a pamphlet from the garbage authority in Philadelphia that tells you when and where the e-waste events are.  It's hardly a surprise that no one deals with their electronic waste properly; I have a whole bucket full of alkaline batteries that I haven't disposed of properly because I can never remember when the damned events are.

At least when I lived in Baltimore, I could take it to the county dump any day I pleased and drop it in the appropriate bin.  They also had bins for car batteries, air conditioners, refrigerators fluorescent lamps, motor oil and other things that are better dealt with out of the waste stream, and they were all out in the main recycling dump area.  I don't see why Philadelphia can't do the same; perhaps I should check to see if there's an alternate solution involving the county instead of the city.



- Dave




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:27:20 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:27:20 -0500
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <4EEE11BE.2070306@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EEE11BE.2070306@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <A2ECD005-EA3D-46C0-89DA-722CB40CD952@gmail.com>

On Dec 18, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Toby Thain wrote:

>> What if a government begins to charge a fee to dispose of old computers,
>> for example?  Any hoarder / collector with a pre-existing pile of dozens
>> of computers has a significant liability on their hands.  Of course, who
>> would ever get rid of their classic beauties?
>> 
>> What would happen if a government instituted a bounty on old computers,
>> so the pile suddenly has more value as recyclables than as classic computers?
>> The price of gold may have already done that.
>> 
>> There are many people in the USA who regard any recycling as a direct
>> affront on their way of life and who deeply resent any requirements
>> to sort their waste.
> 
> Bingo. Why should they care? It's their descendants who'll pay.

It's interesting to see the whole thing framed as a reward/punishment experiment.  I don't know how much the grumbling was in the EU when places started charging a Euro for every grocery bag (something I could get behind), but Washington DC practically threw a tantrum when they started charging $0.05 per bag.  It wasn't enough to actually change behavior, though; just enough to make people irrationally upset.

On the other hand, Whole Foods offers a $0.05 discount if you use your own bag.  In the grand scheme of things, it's the same as having a $0.05 fee for providing a bag, but people seem to find it a lot more palatable (on the other hand, they are also all Whole Foods customers, so there's a pretty significant selection bias).

- Dave




From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 16:28:32 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:28:32 +0100
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <28BC7ABB771E4740BC6CDE59A7EA90C7@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.610.1324250759.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <28BC7ABB771E4740BC6CDE59A7EA90C7@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <20111219222832.GC48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

MikeS wrote:

> Date: Sun, 18 Dec 2011 20:52:03 +0100
> From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> 
> MikeS wrote:
> >---- Original message:
> >Date: Sat, 17 Dec 2011 17:13:38 +0100
> >From: Holm Tiffe <holm at freibergnet.de>
> >
> >> >Files should have an header wich describes what type of data the file
> >> >represents.
> >
> >> Why?
> >
> >> What is so terribly wrong with using the file's _name_ to describe the
> >> type
> >> of data a file represents, so that those "humans" that you seem to
> >> disdain
> >> elsewhere can also know and work with its type, not just the computer?
> 
> >You ask me what's wrong? Never heard of a file called "your_win.jpg.exe"
> >for example and was most Windoze users are doning with such a file and how
> >its name is displayed on most windoze machines?
> 
> I'm not a UNIX expert so I must have misunderstood; you mean UNIX cares
> about file extensions after all and I can't name a UNIX executable
> "your_win.jpg" ?

No. There are other mechanisms that differentiate what file can be executed
and wich not, not dependign on the file name. The long directoy listing
shows what is executable:

here is the entry for /bin/ls on my machine:

-r-xr-xr-x  1 root  wheel   26112 30 Sep 14:58 ls

and that's a jpg:

-rw-------  1 holm  holm   200804  7 Aug 20:01 llll2.jpg

Where is your problem?

Windows is hiding the extension by default, for what is this good for?
For viruses? Seems to be so, this feature is mostly used by them.

> 
> At least the modern DOS equivalent (which is what we're talking about,
> remember?) *does* show the all-important .EXE in the file name, as will
> Windows if you've enabled it. How does UNIX warn me at a quick glance?

     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That's the point.
> 
> ...
> <Half a dozen paragraphs of the traditional redundant and totally irrelevant
> Microsoft-bashing drivel removed for readability>

Maybe I have to reinsert them..
> ...
> 
> >> BTW, I think this quote from Ritchie himself sums it up perfectly:
> >> "Unix is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."
> >
> >> m
> 
> >Hmm, wasn't it "Unix IS user friendly, but it is a little restrictive what
> >his friends are.."
> 
> Look it up! I think you'll find dozens of references, as well as to your
> quote, e.g.
> http://inagist.com/CodeWisdom/146592721312817153/
> or
> http://quotes.prolix.nu/Technology/Computers/

What for? I haven't quoted this from somewhere, this was from memory.
> 
> >PS:
> >Sorry for my broken english, never learned it in a shool or so, it's
> >entirely from using unixoid OS's and communicateing with people like you
> >over the net.
> >Proably it's still better as your german :-)
> 
> I doubt it; born and raised in Hamburg my German's actually pretty good.
> 
> m

Ok,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 16:31:52 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:31:52 +0100
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <4EEF1A2D.21546.9FDBF3@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <4EEF1A2D.21546.9FDBF3@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111219223152.GD48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 19 Dec 2011 at 19:04, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> > DPRK .. Kim Yong Il....?
> 
> Is that the way it's pronouced in Germany?  As far as I know, the "J" 
> in Kin Jong-il is a hard, English-like one in Korean, sort of a dzh 
> sound.
> 
> --Chuck

Hmm..no, so far as I know this should be sound like the english young.
We had North corean workers in the mid eighties in our company..
but don't nail me on this...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:32:06 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:32:06 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEF9D50.9030006@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <20111212041709.GE12764@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <CAMTenCGU61QfE9ARQBQ=JPZoy+x8dyvU_ywrPb_67GMoeWhdNw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouh! aha.com> <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
 <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com> <4EEF9D50.9!
 030006@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <C167055B-FD15-4C4E-8AD8-8DDA802086E0@gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2011, at 3:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

> On 12/19/2011 09:21 AM, David Riley wrote:
>> 
>> Ironic, considering Dave Cutler was the chief NT architect.
> 
>  From what I'm told, current NT-based Windows bears little resemblance to what Dave Cutler actually intended, though.

I wouldn't be surprised.  I hear he's one of the chief architects of Windows Azure, though, which should be interesting.  I still don't quite get the gist of modern "cloud computing", though I suspect the problem is taxonomy pollution (similar to how Microsoft destroyed any meaning ".NET" would have had if they hadn't applied it to everything).


- Dave





From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 16:35:11 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:35:11 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <53623A93-BCDE-4657-97C5-C952C641DA51@gmail.com>
References: <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FE1609EC-9FD2-4C19-9DE0-88F4F84C21D9@gmail.com>
 <20111219175944.GC48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53623A93-BCDE-4657-97C5-C952C641DA51@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111219223511.GE48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

David Riley wrote:

> On Dec 19, 2011, at 12:59 PM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> 
> >> On OS X, TIme Machine is fantastic.  It's actually brilliantly simple; it just makes hard links to the files for each iteration (except the modified ones, which it copies) so that you have a working image for each backup that is indistinguishable from a non-incremental backup (and the hard links only take up the space of an inode each).  It's so simple that I'm surprised I'd never seen it anywhere else.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> - Dave
> >> 
> > 
> > Hmm, but it doesn't save your ass on harddisk failures. :-|
> > 
> > It is still a nice feature.
> 
> It does if you're using a separate disk. :-)  It doesn't, of course, cover the case in which both disks fail at once, e.g. if a fire or a meteor hits.  I'm not sure why there's no support for multiple, redundant backup disks.
> 
> - Dave
> 

An ugly PSU failure will be sufficient to kill the entire machine,
maybe a lightning flash...
In the GDR, Computer PSUs had SCR Crossbars at the Outputs, but they where
not cheap, more the opposite of cheap...

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 16:37:00 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:37:00 +0100
Subject: "Backup is too hard"  (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can
In-Reply-To: <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
References: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <20111219223700.GF48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Fred Cisin wrote:

> > Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
> > in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
> > 1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
> > on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
> > impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...
> 
> Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
> hardware and software?

Which Windoze Backup Software?

:-)

Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From holm at freibergnet.de  Mon Dec 19 16:41:53 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:41:53 +0100
Subject: "Backup is too hard" (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGW138rETz+44koScEe=YnS7W7L3m2vVorTYuQ_GFv-sQQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAHG8iGW138rETz+44koScEe=YnS7W7L3m2vVorTYuQ_GFv-sQQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111219224153.GG48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

Jason McBrien wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> 
> > Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
> > hardware and software?
> >
> 
> VMWare ESX makes OS recovery kinda moot. We do a complete OS/App snapshot
> every week, with user data mirroring. If an ESX box goes down, we just pull
> up the images that went down on another machine, copy the user data over
> from the mirror, and you're good. The whole operation takes a few minutes,
> and can be completely automated.
> 
> Of course, you can do the same thing with Linux and Xen, but it isn't any
> more difficult in Windows.

Yes, yes. I've meant more for home users. They don't have such things
available and a mainboard failure (cheap capacitors) ist the next bad thing
if you can't get one with the same chipset.
I don't know what mickeysoft is doing, but in most cases you can't even
boot anymore, where most of the *nixes can boot with the new hardware.
It where cool to have an really workning CLI console in such cases on
Windoze.

Regards,

Holm

-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 19 16:43:22 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:43:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <20111219105115.Horde.69gpAqQd9PdO7wkTaic68jA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <0B5434C7F0CF4BCE9DC6708873131970@RANGER1>
 <20111219105115.Horde.69gpAqQd9PdO7wkTaic68jA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
Message-ID: <20111219143448.U76876@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Oliver Lehmann wrote:
> >   static char** argv;
> While the Compiler knows the keyword static, it is not allowed in the
> paramter declaration it seems.

Is it NEEDED?
Are you talking about the argv in the incoming parameters to main()?


> > Other modifiers "volatile", "const", "auto" might be possible.
> all 3 keywords are unknown to this C-Compiler.

My assumption is that "volatile" was created entirtely and specifically
for "optimizing" compilers to tell them to keep their grubby mitts off,
and NOT eliminate code such as
while(
{ x = *p;
  . . .
}
by moving
x = *p;
out of the loop.

It was a right PITA creating polling loops with optimizing compilers until
the "volatile" keyword was added.

Compiler authors are very proud of their optimizations; but the SECOND
version of such comilers always has to add in code to over-ride the
optimizer.



From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com  Mon Dec 19 16:48:05 2011
From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:48:05 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FS. PDP 11/35 + RK05 units in Yorkshire
Message-ID: <1324334885.85171.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>

All gone now. Thanks for the interest.


From hadsell at blueskystudios.com  Mon Dec 19 16:48:11 2011
From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:48:11 -0500
Subject: Classic Picture
In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
References: <7.0.1.0.2.20111216204046.02513580@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EEFBF2B.8020404@blueskystudios.com>

On 12/16/2011 08:45 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> I was looking on ebay at pictures of Balltimore.  Lo and behold I saw something the Classic Computer folks would appreciate.
>
> See ebay item 260916992297
>
> It is a picture of an actor, but who cares, it's the background that caught my eye.
>
>
I think the title on the ebay entry is wrong -- it doesn't look like Howard Keel or make any sense.  The item says that it is Donald Grempler, who apparently computerized his real estate business in the 60's and made it the major firm in Baltimore.  His 
obit mentions a Mark V: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2001-03-02/news/0103020208_1_grempler-estate-world-real-estate.

-- 
Dick Hadsell			203-992-6320  Fax: 203-992-6001
Reply-to:			hadsell at blueskystudios.com
Blue Sky Studios                http://www.blueskystudios.com
1 American Lane, Greenwich, CT 06831-2560



From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 19 16:50:12 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:50:12 +0100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames -
 Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <20111219175944.GC48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <FE1609EC-9FD2-4C19-9DE0-88F4F84C21D9@gmail.com>
 <20111219175944.GC48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219225012.GB13794@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 06:59:44PM +0100, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> David Riley wrote:
> 
> > On Dec 19, 2011, at 11:37 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> > 
> > > Wintel decided that they don't process relevant data at all since the user
> > > in most cases has noc chance to backup his data to something useful (no
> > > 1,44MB Disk please). Backing up a Windows so that it can be reinstalled
> > > on a possibly different hard disk or machine is another story. Almost
> > > impossible. No Problem on Linux or *BSD...
> > 
> > I've heard very good things about CrashPlan.  They let you run on local disks or LAN machines for free, but they also have a pretty attractive offsite solution.  Never used them, but Neil Gaiman does. :-)
> > 
> > On OS X, TIme Machine is fantastic.  It's actually brilliantly simple; it just makes hard links to the files for each iteration (except the modified ones, which it copies) so that you have a working image for each backup that is indistinguishable from a non-incremental backup (and the hard links only take up the space of an inode each).  It's so simple that I'm surprised I'd never seen it anywhere else.
> > 
> > 
> > - Dave
> > 
> 
> Hmm, but it doesn't save your ass on harddisk failures. :-|

Which is why my backups are 
 - distributed over several machines on disk
 - also going out to tape (DLT, nowadays LTO)
 - there also also offsite copies

Kind regards,
          Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 17:08:58 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:08:58 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EEFC40A.5030405@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 04:57 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> PS. RL01 cartridges are not brown, but grey. RL02 are as you said blue.

   My RL01s are brown.

            -Dave


-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 19 17:00:23 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 00:00:23 +0100
Subject: Cheap Chinese electrolytics - a plague - Re: TV -> D-Sub converter
In-Reply-To: <201112191313.IAA03642@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <4EEBF5F2.4050702@telegraphics.com.au> <m1Rc0ms-000J4BC@p850ug1>
 <20111218192150.GC41884@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112182155370.30890@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <201112191313.IAA03642@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111219230023.GC13794@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 08:13:12AM -0500, Mouse wrote:
> >> Some sayed that the lead that gets trough the bullets of hunters and
> >> as plummet of fishing rods into the environment is much more than
> >> that from solder in electric waste...
> > Even then, that lead is not soluble.
> 
> About as soluble as the lead in solder, no?  Or does the presence of
> the tin make the lead more soluble?
> 
> In any case, it's soluble enough to be a problem.  That's why they
> don't make water pipes out of lead any longer.  Not much dissolves, but
> it doesn't take much.

And there was a nice mystery death a couple decades back in Germany.
Man dies, the coroner finds as cause of death: chronic lead poisoning.
No obvious suspect ... finally the investigation finds the cause: habit.

Every morning, he drank a glas of water. The water pipes in the house
were lead. With the water sitting in the pipes all night, a measurable
amount of lead compounds ended up being dissolved in the first few liters
out of the faucet in the morning. Over a few years ... enough to do him in.

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 19 17:17:54 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:17:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o, address?
In-Reply-To: <4EEF952D.800@otter.se> from "Jonas Otter" at Dec 19,
 11 08:49:01 pm
Message-ID: <m1RcmSz-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> 
> >> >      It may be, but CdS cells abound, and I don't see them going away
> >> >  anytime soon.  There's so little cadmium in them that I really don't see
> >> >  it ever being a problem.
> > You and I know it's not a problem,. but that is hargly going to satisfy
> > the non-scientific idiots we have in charge. I beleive that all CdS LDRs
> > are not RoHS compliant ;-(. This doesn;'t affect home constructios (at
> > least not in the UK), it does matter if you're going to use them commerially.
> CdS cells have quite a few problems that have made them obsolete for 

I don;t disagree that there are other devices that have advantages in 
many applciaitons, and it's entirely reasonable to then use said other 
devices. But thee CdS photoresisto also has an advantage -- it's a 
resistor. At a constnat ligjht level, the I-V characteristic is pretty 
darn lienar. That makes it ideal for the sort of amplitude-control 
application that we've been discussisng 

> photographic purposes: temperature dependence, slow response and memory 
> effect. They need a significant time to adjust to a different level of 
> illumination to give a normal response. The response becoming non-linear 
> with age has also been reported. For a long time cameras have been using 
> silicon photodiodes instead.

Some also use GaAs and related photodiodes...

I think i cna see cameras with photovoltaic selenium cells, CdS 
photoresisotrs and silicon photodiodes without geting up... 

-tony


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 17:47:34 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:47:34 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> wrote:
> I have an 11/05 which has a Perkin-Elmer drive just like the one you
> describe.
> In the bottom is a fixed (non-removable platter) and in the top you can load
> an "RL-style" cartridge. This is from memory, the system is in the old house

It's been over 10 years since I gave the drive I had a new home.  It's entirely
possible that it was badged Perkin-Elmer (both starting with "P", after all.  I
got it from a friend who was moving and never did anything with it, so about
all I remember for certain is that it was at least as large as an RL02 (there's
a chance it was taller or had an external PSU), and the body was black-painted
steel (not brushed aluminum or plated steel).  I don't even recall if
the faceplate
was white or black or what.

> PS. RL01 cartridges are not brown, but grey. RL02 are as you said blue.

I hate to disagree with you, but mine look just like the ones at the
bottom of this page...

  http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html

In person (i.e., with better lighting), the accent parts are a dark,
chocolate brown.

-ethan


From jfoust at threedee.com  Mon Dec 19 17:47:47 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:47:47 -0600
Subject: "Backup is too hard"  (Was: Unix shell design [was Re:
 Yes, Unix can 
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112191406050.22329@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112191406050.22329@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <201112192351.pBJNpSUB032841@billy.ezwind.net>

At 04:07 PM 12/19/2011, Gene Buckle wrote:
>I don't know about older editions, but Win7 has this spiffy little "backup and recovery wizard" that not only backs up all your goodies to an external device, network share, etc, but it also will burn a bootable DVD in order to facilitate the recovery.

It depends on how you look at it.  Unless you've restored to cold iron, 
you only think you have backups.

You can't expect to take an image of one Windows machine and restore it on 
different hardware, as would be the most likely case if a fire or tornado 
destroyed your computer.  You need to verify that your applications are 
truly in concert with the backup software and that you are writing usable files.  

With an external backup, you might be able to restore the user's personally-created 
files.  Windows itself, at the HAL level, doesn't like to be moved around.  
Sometimes it might work on different hardware, but mostly not.  Applications 
aren't easily moved.  The monolithic registry stands in the way.  Licensing 
mechanisms stand in the way, from Microsoft on down.  

A proper Windows backup and restore strategy has to jump all these hurdles.  

- John



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 19 18:06:03 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:06:03 -0800
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>,
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>,
 <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEF60EB.15469.1B42F44@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Dec 2011 at 17:23, David Riley wrote:

> Every time I've bought tires here, I've paid a per-tire recycling fee.

Here in Oregon, if you buy a lead-acid battery (down to motorcycle 
size), you pay a $15 "core charge".  If you return an old battery to 
a retailer, they generally issue a credit slip that can be applied 
toward the core charge on a new battery.  But I believe, by law, they 
must reimburse the core charge in cash if you decide not to purchase 
another battery.

I'd like to investigate running my UPS from nickel-iron batteries, 
since they have very long lifetimes and space isn't an issue, but 
don't know where to start looking for them...

--Chuck
 




From sttaylor at charter.net  Mon Dec 19 18:11:36 2011
From: sttaylor at charter.net (ST Taylor_Charter)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:11:36 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>

Glen,

Looks like nobody has a copy of the Original Document they can spare.
So, would you please scan to PDF both the Users Manual and the Retrofit 
Kit Manual


Thanks in advance,

Steve

sttaylor at earthlink.net


------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 12/14/2011 3:40 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Dec 14, 2011 2:06 PM, "ST Taylor_Charter"<sttaylor at charter.net>  wrote:
>> Any body know where I can find a PDF of the SC/MP Kit User's Manual or
> the Actual Manual
>> National Semiconductor Pub# 4200113A
>>
> I have a physical copy of the SC/MP Kit Users Manual, Publication Number
> 4200113A, March 1976. If no one has this scanned I could put scanning it on
> my todo list. It's less than 40 pages total.
>
> I also have a copy of the SC/MP-II Microprocessor Retrofit Kit Users
> Manual,  Publication Number 420305365-001A, January 1977, which is about 20
> pages.



From jws at jwsss.com  Mon Dec 19 18:13:42 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:13:42 -0800
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
 <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFD336.8070308@jwsss.com>

> On Dec 17, 2011, at 11:23 PM, John Foust wrote:
>
>> At 03:10 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>>> But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in landfill by default? That's the unsolved part.
>> Some countries and states have enacted laws to require it.  In Japan, for
>> example, you pre-pay a recycling fee when you buy an appliance, and retailers
>> and manufacturers are required to accept used appliances.  In my state,
>> Wisconsin, you can't put e-waste in the trash any longer.  It has to go to
>> a special e-waste collection site.  My waste management company doesn't
>> seem to care if I put a bare metal PC case in the trash.  If it showed any
>> wires or circuit boards, I don't think they'd take it.
> Every time I've bought tires here, I've paid a per-tire recycling fee.
>
> We're supposed to deliver our e-waste to special collection facilities that are open at various locations about once a month; you can specially request a pamphlet from the garbage authority in Philadelphia that tells you when and where the e-waste events are.  It's hardly a surprise that no one deals with their electronic waste properly; I have a whole bucket full of alkaline batteries that I haven't disposed of properly because I can never remember when the damned events are.
>
> At least when I lived in Baltimore, I could take it to the county dump any day I pleased and drop it in the appropriate bin.  They also had bins for car batteries, air conditioners, refrigerators fluorescent lamps, motor oil and other things that are better dealt with out of the waste stream, and they were all out in the main recycling dump area.  I don't see why Philadelphia can't do the same; perhaps I should check to see if there's an alternate solution involving the county instead of the city.
>
>
sounds like baltimore has the correct attitude, which matches the one 
here in Orange County, Ca.  If you make up arbitrary rules about how to 
treat things and make it difficult to follow people will take the waste 
out in the countryside and just pitch it.

That is what happens in Kansas City where they banned not only all the 
usual disposal, but have outragous fees on it, and if you can believe it 
in a fairly fertile region, the ban lawn clippings.  It is a total mess.

Here we can take our junk to two places in the county and they operate 
reasonable hours 7 days a week.  All waste, paint, displays, mystery 
chemical, just bring it in and it goes away.  There is a limit on the 
daily amounts, but it is fairly large, and usually waived.

I also recycle all CFLs and old style fluorescent tubes as well, though 
the original reason, mercury is no longer a problem, there are things in 
those that don't need to go in the landfill.

I'd be interested if anyone has any pointers to how to break open and 
recycle CFL electronics.  I see a lot of articles on how useful the 
switching bits are in those, but I'm not up to speed enough to make use 
of them, and just toss them.
> - Dave
>
>
>


From vrs at msn.com  Mon Dec 19 18:26:36 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:26:36 -0800
Subject: "Backup is too hard"  (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can 
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112191406050.22329@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112191406050.22329@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP386542E3A8B47C519D53189B2A40@phx.gbl>

From: Gene Buckle; Monday, December 19, 2011 2:07 PM
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
>> hardware and software?

I count myself among those who could use some schooling on Windoze
backup solutions that actually work, and don't require me to become an
expert on virtual machines or some other new-fangled crap.  Off-list, of
course.

> I don't know about older editions, but Win7 has this spiffy little "backup and 
> recovery wizard" that not only backs up all your goodies to an external 
> device, network share, etc, but it also will burn a bootable DVD in order to 
> facilitate the recovery.

But does it work??  My own system has been pretty robust (knock wood),
but my Dad used to crash his every week or so.  (Could not resist downloading
the latest malware crap, rest his soul.)  I never once saw him able to recover
anything useful with any Windows backup solution (this was XP).  Closest we
ever got was to periodically drag and drop the contents of "My Documents"
onto his second drive.

Which was pretty F-ing lame.  It meant re-installing all his apps and 
re-configuring
all their profile information, etc. etc.  Over and over again.  (Same problem 
with
upgrades, like my recent upgrade to W7.)

None of this has much to do with classic computers.

    Vince
 



From cclist at sydex.com  Mon Dec 19 18:38:49 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:38:49 -0800
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <20111219223152.GD48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>,
 <4EEF1A2D.21546.9FDBF3@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111219223152.GD48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <4EEF6899.27619.1D22FEE@cclist.sydex.com>

On 19 Dec 2011 at 23:31, Holm Tiffe wrote:

>> Hmm..no, so far as I know this should be sound like the english 
young.
> We had North corean workers in the mid eighties in our company.. but
> don't nail me on this...

I'm going by the BBC World Service and NHK English-language service, 
so maybe the late Mr. Kim has a European twin... :)

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 19 18:40:42 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 16:40:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "Backup is too hard"  (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix
 can
In-Reply-To: <20111219223700.GF48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
 <20111219223700.GF48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219163023.X76876@shell.lmi.net>

> > Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
> > hardware and software?
On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> Which Windoze Backup Software?
> :-)

First, let me apologize for possible misinterpretation - it was NOT
wholely rhetorical, nor intended as in insult.  I needed help finding
Windoze backup software that would work ansd do what I wanted.

I'm currently using Acronis.

As an example:
I have severl OQOs.  I bought an additional one cheap on eBay, because the
previous owner had a bunch of them, and in an attempt to clean the drives,
wiped them out, and was unable to reinstall the OS (XP).  Sure enough, it
would not boot from an install CD!  But, it would boot from the Acronis
CD, and I was able to easily "clone" the drive from another OQO, even
though the models were different (01 and 01+) and the drives were 30G V
20G.  Because of the model difference, I had to re-install the drivers,
but it is now fully functional.  I was especially pleased that it had
options in case the replacement drive was a different size.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com





From als at thangorodrim.de  Mon Dec 19 18:38:59 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 01:38:59 +0100
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
References: <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
 <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111220003859.GD13794@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 05:23:19PM -0500, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 17, 2011, at 11:23 PM, John Foust wrote:
> 
> > At 03:10 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
> >> But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who
> >> are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in
> >> landfill by default? That's the unsolved part. 
> > 
> > Some countries and states have enacted laws to require it.  In Japan, for
> > example, you pre-pay a recycling fee when you buy an appliance, and
> > retailers and manufacturers are required to accept used appliances.  In my
> > state, Wisconsin, you can't put e-waste in the trash any longer.  It has to
> > go to a special e-waste collection site.  My waste management company
> > doesn't seem to care if I put a bare metal PC case in the trash.  If it
> > showed any wires or circuit boards, I don't think they'd take it.
> 
> Every time I've bought tires here, I've paid a per-tire recycling fee.
> 
> We're supposed to deliver our e-waste to special collection facilities that
> are open at various locations about once a month; you can specially request a
> pamphlet from the garbage authority in Philadelphia that tells you when and
> where the e-waste events are.  It's hardly a surprise that no one deals with
> their electronic waste properly; I have a whole bucket full of alkaline
> batteries that I haven't disposed of properly because I can never remember
> when the damned events are.
> 
> At least when I lived in Baltimore, I could take it to the county dump any
> day I pleased and drop it in the appropriate bin.  They also had bins for car
> batteries, air conditioners, refrigerators fluorescent lamps, motor oil and
> other things that are better dealt with out of the waste stream, and they
> were all out in the main recycling dump area.  I don't see why Philadelphia
> can't do the same; perhaps I should check to see if there's an alternate
> solution involving the county instead of the city.

Here (next door to to Zurich, Switzerland) it is very simple: show up at the
city recycling yard and drop off your stuff (cardboard, paper, glas, anything
electric/electronic, plastic bottles, cans (drink or otherwise)) for free in
the appropriate bins. Random other crap has appropriate bins too, but costs
around 40 cents/kg, which is considered cheap (this being Switzerland after
all).

Seems to work pretty well.

Kind regards,
           Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 18:50:10 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:50:10 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=i_H7itg0kzU4drBuDSO9ghs6=YQSoG6qP-u9oGDcM7g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=i_H7itg0kzU4drBuDSO9ghs6=YQSoG6qP-u9oGDcM7g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21BVOG4eGHcT8YNWgQrCtCvyrMx8MGAbyXhFfDg6jA-nw@mail.gmail.com>

there was a rl8a on ebay for 150 few months back saw it but didn't know
what it was till 2 weeks ago in the irc channel had a convo man i smacked
myself

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 12:56 AM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > figured you guys would like to know :)
> >
> > anyhow now i need to find a drive for them and a card so i can atach it
> to
> > my 8a
>
> RL02 drives were common at DEC sites (more common in my experience
> than RL01s, for example), but RL8A cards were somewhat unusual.  I
> bought mine in the early 1980s for $600 to use with an RL01 (the
> availability of which dried up right after I got it).
>
> I have not seen an RL8A listed as available (for any price, even
> "$CALL") on reseller sites since about 1997 (from the same sites that
> _do_ have CPUs and MOS memory cards and other "common" OMNIBUS parts
> for sale).
>
> -ethan
>


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 18:51:30 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:51:30 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CACwhfuM0xNZAKR39examQLQDTuNuitDcxLs0Nc8hWAM9s2OSzw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9838.3060601@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmim=MH1tNDrb2oQjr9EBOsTd82AZ9-hPA7EAAhMWOtE8hig@mail.gmail.com>
 <CACwhfuM0xNZAKR39examQLQDTuNuitDcxLs0Nc8hWAM9s2OSzw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23fFAqEG4qbBDztbk3q1DgBham9Cy1_+vKZidcY2Zt88w@mail.gmail.com>

really?

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have one or two of the RL8-A controllers left. I even know where
> they are , but I can't get to them very easily right now.
>
> They are getting hard to find, unlike  the Uni-bus and both Q-bus versions.
>
> Paul
>
> On 12/19/11, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 3:02 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> >>>> photo of the bottom clearly showed it was 12 which is what I thought
> >>>> DEC used.
> >>>
> >>> Are you perhaps thinking of RK05 cartridges?  Those have visible
> >>> notches on the hub and come in 12-sector versions.. and
> >>> 16-sector versions
> >>
> >> Here are the photos from the auction
> >>
> >> http://photobucket.com/rl02
> >
> > Ah, gotcha.  With 40 being such a large amount over 12, I had
> > incorrectly guessed you were looking at a different picture.
> >
> >> picture "data02" and "data04" have the hub in view.  Way more than
> either
> >> 12
> >> or 16 sectors.  The 40 mentioned elsewhere in your reply, but not for
> RL02
> >> seems to fit, but I'm not sure I can count how many notches are there.
> >
> > I counted 40 from data4.jpg (and I said 40 for both RL01 and RL02 but
> > perhaps my statement was insufficiently unambiguous - those drives
> > have different numbers of *tracks* but the identical number of sectors
> > per track).
> >
> > -ethan
> >
> >
>
>


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 19 19:00:23 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:00:23 -0500
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <A2ECD005-EA3D-46C0-89DA-722CB40CD952@gmail.com>
References: <mailman.584.1323959963.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245104C890B00@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
 <79D8D9B99EA24B0D88F4786EBBF3D63D@dell8300> <4EEA41A9.7080905@jetnet.ab.ca>
 <20111216165452.GF28813@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EEE11BE.2070306@telegraphics.com.au>
 <A2ECD005-EA3D-46C0-89DA-722CB40CD952@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFDE27.50400@telegraphics.com.au>

On 19/12/11 5:27 PM, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 18, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Toby Thain wrote:
>
>>> What if a government begins to charge a fee to dispose of old computers,
>>> for example?  Any hoarder / collector with a pre-existing pile of dozens
>>> of computers has a significant liability on their hands.  Of course, who
>>> would ever get rid of their classic beauties?
>>>
>>> What would happen if a government instituted a bounty on old computers,
>>> so the pile suddenly has more value as recyclables than as classic computers?
>>> The price of gold may have already done that.
>>>
>>> There are many people in the USA who regard any recycling as a direct
>>> affront on their way of life and who deeply resent any requirements
>>> to sort their waste.
>>
>> Bingo. Why should they care? It's their descendants who'll pay.
>
> It's interesting to see the whole thing framed as a reward/punishment experiment.

I'm using the word "pay" quite broadly.

--Toby

 > I don't know how much the grumbling was in the EU when places started 
charging a Euro for every grocery bag (something I could get behind), 
but Washington DC practically threw a tantrum when they started charging 
$0.05 per bag.  It wasn't enough to actually change behavior, though; 
just enough to make people irrationally upset.
>
> On the other hand, Whole Foods offers a $0.05 discount if you use your own bag.  In the grand scheme of things, it's the same as having a $0.05 fee for providing a bag, but people seem to find it a lot more palatable (on the other hand, they are also all Whole Foods customers, so there's a pretty significant selection bias).
>
> - Dave
>
>
>



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 19 19:02:21 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:02:21 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111219222832.GC48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <mailman.610.1324250759.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <28BC7ABB771E4740BC6CDE59A7EA90C7@vl420mt>
 <20111219222832.GC48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219164159.N76876@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> No. There are other mechanisms that differentiate what file can be executed
> and wich not, not dependign on the file name. The long directoy listing
> shows what is executable:

MS-DOS has a byte for "attribute";
it is too bad that they didn't use one of those bits for "executable"!

> Windows is hiding the extension by default, for what is this good for?
because some asshole declared it to be more "friendly" with the extension
not displayed!

> > At least the modern DOS equivalent (which is what we're talking about,
> > remember?) *does* show the all-important .EXE in the file name, as will
> > Windows if you've enabled it. How does UNIX warn me at a quick glance?
>           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> That's the point.
EXACTLY!
The default is to hide the extensions, and give an extra boost for viruses
to trick the unwary newbies.

Just as the default for their web products is to execute incoming code, so
as to facilitate an emphasys on WWW of dancing kangaroos and yodelling
jellyfish.

I have to constantly remind myself that _I_ am not the target user for
MICRO~1 products.  Many of their most obnoxiously unpleasant and annoying
design decisions are actually probably the right ones for who they are
aiming at!

> > <Half a dozen paragraphs of the traditional redundant and totally irrelevant
> > Microsoft-bashing drivel removed for readability>
> Maybe I have to reinsert them..

OK, if you have to.  But delete everything that you don't agree with that
isn't needed.  If enough people deleted extraneous content, then we
wouldn't have 15K for 3 line messages!

> > >> BTW, I think this quote from Ritchie himself sums it up perfectly:
> > >> "Unix is simple. It just takes a genius to understand its simplicity."
> > >Hmm, wasn't it "Unix IS user friendly, but it is a little restrictive what
> > >his friends are.."
> > Look it up! I think you'll find dozens of references, as well as to your
> > quote, e.g.
> > http://inagist.com/CodeWisdom/146592721312817153/
> > or
> > http://quotes.prolix.nu/Technology/Computers/
> What for? I haven't quoted this from somewhere, this was from memory.

Thet are BOTH valid quotes.  There is no need for an "is it this V is it
that" argument!

> > >PS:
> > >Sorry for my broken english, never learned it in a shool or so, it's
> > >entirely from using unixoid OS's and communicateing with people like you
> > >over the net.
> > >Proably it's still better as your german :-)

I have been part of the faculty of a college for more than 30 years.  Your
"broken" English is substatially better than the average of our students,
and even staff.  Over our "Information Desk", there is a sign that says,
"Question Ask Here".  As a comment about college illiteracy, I got license
plate frames that say, "UC Berkeley Aluminum"; nobody notices the
misspelling.   Note to Tony: I also got one that says, "UC Berkeley
Aluminium" that I will give to my [British] PhD advisor.
Sorry, I don't know German.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 19:28:29 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:28:29 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <C167055B-FD15-4C4E-8AD8-8DDA802086E0@gmail.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouh! aha.com> <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
 <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com> <4EEF9D50.9!
 030006@neurotica.com> <C167055B-FD15-4C4E-8AD8-8DDA802086E0@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EEFE4BD.3080808@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 05:32 PM, David Riley wrote:
> I still don't
> quite get the gist of modern "cloud computing", though I suspect the
> problem is taxonomy pollution (similar to how Microsoft destroyed any
> meaning ".NET" would have had if they hadn't applied it to
> everything).

   You don't get the gist of cloud computing because you know enough 
about computers to understand why it (what they're pushing anyway) is a 
terrible idea.

   I'm reminded of the femtocell offerings by cell phone carriers who 
spend so much on executive compensation that they don't have the money 
to build out their infrastructure enough to support their customer base.

   For those who don't know, a femtocell is basically a tiny "cell 
tower" in a box about the size of a wireless router.  You connect it to 
your home network, and when you're at home, your calls go out over your 
Internet connection, instead of via the cell carrier's nearest tower. 
This has the effect of offloading their network, to make it cheaper to 
operate, at the expense of a different service that you're already 
paying money for to do something else.

   It's unbelievably sleazy.

   But anyway, they market these infernal devices with a strange 
technique.  They say glowingly, "...and when you're at home, you'll be 
able to use VOICE OVER IP!!!", and that's it.  As if that, in and of 
itself, is some wonderful thing that will make you extremely cool, help 
you lose weight, and enhance your sexual performance all in one fell swoop.

   All it basically does is compensate for shortfalls in their 
infrastructure that they could easily fix if they weren't so cheap.  And 
on top of this, they CHARGE YOU fox the box, and they CHARGE YOU a 
monthly fee to use it!  When using it SAVES THEM MONEY!!  Unbelievable!!

   Non-US folk: If you travel to the US, and you walk past a man wearing 
a tie, check to see if you still have your wallet!

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 19 19:36:44 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:36:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4D1848D4-FFF7-459C-8224-4C9EB55E3BE1@gmail.com>
References: <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <20111217113844.GB30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4D1848D4-FFF7-459C-8224-4C9EB55E3BE1@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111219173538.D76876@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, David Riley wrote:
> The one I'd always heard (though it's not 100% identical in spirit) was
> "Unix gives you enough rope to shoot yourself in the foot".

Holub based the title of his C oddities book on that.


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 19 20:46:36 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:46:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Mitbringen
In-Reply-To: <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
References: <20111219075706.GA12927@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EEEF53B.19354.F8999@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111219180455.GD48531@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
Message-ID: <20111219183401.D76876@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Holm Tiffe wrote:
> This remembers me to PCMCIA ...aka: People Can't Memorize Computer
> Industries Acronyms...
> That's what I can remember, not the original meaning.

That is correct.
Ignore the jerks who try to tell you that it stands for
Personal Computer Memory Card Industry Association
They were such jerks that when PCMCIA didn't catch on as a name, they
changed it to "PC CARD"!
Now, THAT takes a real jerk to not realize how BAD that name is!


They are far from unique.  Consider "COM", "CPM", "8mm movie"



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Mon Dec 19 20:54:51 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 18:54:51 -0800
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111219164159.N76876@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.610.1324250759.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <28BC7ABB771E4740BC6CDE59A7EA90C7@vl420mt>
 <20111219222832.GC48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219164159.N76876@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EEFF8FB.70508@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/19/2011 5:02 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Holm Tiffe wrote:
>> No. There are other mechanisms that differentiate what file can be executed
>> and wich not, not dependign on the file name. The long directoy listing
>> shows what is executable:
> MS-DOS has a byte for "attribute";
> it is too bad that they didn't use one of those bits for "executable"!

In my experience in a previous job as a sysadmin of NT 4.0 boxes (around 
1998), I can say that having an "Exec" bit for Windows binaries would 
have slowed virus spread, but only just.

You would not -believe- the lengths some of our users would go through 
to (manually!) install malware.  Users would get an e-mail with a 
password-protected ZIP file as an attachment ("ElfBowling.zip" or 
"NakedWomen.zip"), and the e-mail itself would contain detailed 
instructions for installing the damned thing since you couldn't just 
double-click on the attachment.

Disregarding all advice we'd repeated about not running stuff that came 
in e-mail, our users would faithfully follow the e-mail instructions to 
the letter and get their machines infected (well, no, the virus scanner 
would catch it, thankfully).

If Windows had an "Exec" bit the instructions in the e-mail would have 
been just be one line longer.

- Josh


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 20:58:25 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 21:58:25 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEFE4BD.3080808@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECC7A4.8070205@brouh! aha.com> <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
 <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com> <4EEF9D50.9!
 030006@neurotica.com> <C167055B-FD15-4C4E-8AD8-8DDA802086E0@gmail.com>
 <4EEFE4BD.3080808@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1B2A0704-00CC-4537-BBE6-848C11280F30@gmail.com>

On Dec 19, 2011, at 8:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>  I'm reminded of the femtocell offerings by cell phone carriers who spend so much on executive compensation that they don't have the money to build out their infrastructure enough to support their customer base.
> 
>  For those who don't know, a femtocell is basically a tiny "cell tower" in a box about the size of a wireless router.  You connect it to your home network, and when you're at home, your calls go out over your Internet connection, instead of via the cell carrier's nearest tower. This has the effect of offloading their network, to make it cheaper to operate, at the expense of a different service that you're already paying money for to do something else.
> 
>  It's unbelievably sleazy.

I have a friend who lives in an area with enough rich people that they can't deploy the cell phone masts ("It looks so ugly!  Don't put that in my backyard!  Now why can't I get a signal out here?").  He had to buy a femtocell just to be able to use his cell phone in his house.  It's absurd.

Of course, they don't install the masts in areas where there are too many poor people, either.  I suppose there's an inverse bathtub curve of income vs. cell tower density...


- Dave




From alexeyt at freeshell.org  Mon Dec 19 21:25:19 2011
From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 03:25:19 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Anyone collect "electronic organizer"s?
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112200324340.16796@miku.sdf.org>


I've got a Sharp YO-470 here that worked last time it had batteries in it.
Free to a good home; if you live outside the US I'll ask that you pay
shipping. Please reply off list.

 			Alexey


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 19 21:37:33 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:37:33 -0500
Subject: Recycling/landfill/scrappers/garbage pickers
In-Reply-To: <20111220003859.GD13794@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <F4B690E723EB42B483E5963477530FE4@dell8300>
 <20111217150803.GB35125@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <53C7DDDD5327446B970AF620E4D33E6B@dell8300>
 <4EECCC1C.1070609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171752.pBHHptS8082368@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EECE492.2090502@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112171938.pBHJcgMm084271@billy.ezwind.net>
 <4EED0540.5040601@telegraphics.com.au>
 <201112180426.pBI4QE87090179@billy.ezwind.net>
 <223040CE-2632-4E4D-84C4-4A322A495CC4@gmail.com>
 <20111220003859.GD13794@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <4EF002FD.80006@telegraphics.com.au>

On 19/12/11 7:38 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 05:23:19PM -0500, David Riley wrote:
>> On Dec 17, 2011, at 11:23 PM, John Foust wrote:
>>
>>> At 03:10 PM 12/17/2011, Toby Thain wrote:
>>>> But how do we direct e-waste (for example) into the hands of people who
>>>> are picking it apart for non-renewables, rather than it ending up in
>>>> landfill by default? That's the unsolved part.
>>>
>>> Some countries and states have enacted laws to require it.  In Japan, for
>>> example, you pre-pay a recycling fee when you buy an appliance, and
>>> retailers and manufacturers are required to accept used appliances.  In my
>>> state, Wisconsin, you can't put e-waste in the trash any longer.  It has to
>>> go to a special e-waste collection site. ...
>>
>> Every time I've bought tires here, I've paid a per-tire recycling fee.
>>
>> We're supposed to deliver our e-waste to special collection facilities that
>> are open at various locations about once a month; ...
>
> Here (next door to to Zurich, Switzerland) it is very simple: show up at the
> city recycling yard and drop off your stuff...

If I had to name one country that was doing a good job of this, I'd 
first think of Switzerland (having visited :)

--Toby

>
> Seems to work pretty well.
>
> Kind regards,
>             Alex.



From spectre at floodgap.com  Mon Dec 19 22:16:20 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:16:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very
 poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <1B2A0704-00CC-4537-BBE6-848C11280F30@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 19, 11 09:58:25 pm"
Message-ID: <201112200416.pBK4GKKZ010638@floodgap.com>

> I'm reminded of the femtocell offerings by cell phone carriers

I don't have a femtocell, I have a repeater. I stuck a mast on my own roof
and ran it to an 3G amplifier I purchased off the shelf. Supposedly it has
the ability to detect when the repeated signal is not in phase and reduce
its power to avoid interfering with the master signal. Seems to work well
as I'm getting three to four bars through the house, whereas before I had
several dead areas.

And the best part is, I'm not having to sacrifice any of my T1 for that.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Never refuse a breath mint. -- Daniel Handler ------------------------------


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Mon Dec 19 22:31:49 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:31:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Automatic file associations - Re: Unix handles file extensions
 "very poorly"? - Re: Mac/Mac Programming/Cocoa/HyperTalk
In-Reply-To: <20111219164159.N76876@shell.lmi.net>
References: <mailman.610.1324250759.1079.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <28BC7ABB771E4740BC6CDE59A7EA90C7@vl420mt>
 <20111219222832.GC48834@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219164159.N76876@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201112200431.XAA24516@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> As a comment about college illiteracy, I got license plate frames
> that say, "UC Berkeley Aluminum"; nobody notices the misspelling.

How do you tell the difference between not noticing and noticing but
not telling you?  If I saw such a thing, especially if the car were
parked or in traffic (ie, I couldn't easily talk with its person at the
time), I'd just get a chuckle out of it but no more; the owner would
have no reason to think I'd noticed.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From mokuba at gmail.com  Mon Dec 19 22:47:16 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 23:47:16 -0500
Subject: "Backup is too hard" (Was: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP386542E3A8B47C519D53189B2A40@phx.gbl>
References: <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au>
 <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu> <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com>
 <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <20111217113358.GA30389@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
 <4EECE026.3000800@mail.msu.edu>
 <D17EA7D6-D5C0-4467-8E80-1BB3DE6D83B1@gmail.com>
 <20111219163715.GE46825@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>
 <20111219123856.C76876@shell.lmi.net>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112191406050.22329@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP386542E3A8B47C519D53189B2A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh5PTg=Mn9iV0WcEj5syv7QXK-ZyMTegCsrpYhjqzOKaaw@mail.gmail.com>

This hearkens back to at least windows 2000, iirc ASR (automated system
recovery) would blast a backup image of windows with. Adjusted/recreated
HAL and all your data when engaged. From the windows boot cd. As said
above, if win7 generates a bootable recovery setup, it probably stages a
new HAL as well... should recover to other hardware easily. (All of this is
if I recall correctly, I'm dipping back into windows server/exchange/client
os after at least 5 years of absence !)
On Dec 19, 2011 9:00 PM, "Vincent Slyngstad" <vrs at msn.com> wrote:

> From: Gene Buckle; Monday, December 19, 2011 2:07 PM
>
>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>
>>> Do you need some help learning how to select and use Windoze backup
>>> hardware and software?
>>>
>>
> I count myself among those who could use some schooling on Windoze
> backup solutions that actually work, and don't require me to become an
> expert on virtual machines or some other new-fangled crap.  Off-list, of
> course.
>
>  I don't know about older editions, but Win7 has this spiffy little
>> "backup and recovery wizard" that not only backs up all your goodies to an
>> external device, network share, etc, but it also will burn a bootable DVD
>> in order to facilitate the recovery.
>>
>
> But does it work??  My own system has been pretty robust (knock wood),
> but my Dad used to crash his every week or so.  (Could not resist
> downloading
> the latest malware crap, rest his soul.)  I never once saw him able to
> recover
> anything useful with any Windows backup solution (this was XP).  Closest we
> ever got was to periodically drag and drop the contents of "My Documents"
> onto his second drive.
>
> Which was pretty F-ing lame.  It meant re-installing all his apps and
> re-configuring
> all their profile information, etc. etc.  Over and over again.  (Same
> problem with
> upgrades, like my recent upgrade to W7.)
>
> None of this has much to do with classic computers.
>
>   Vince
>
>
>


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Mon Dec 19 23:52:28 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 00:52:28 -0500
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes, Unix can do batch renames - Re:
 Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <201112200416.pBK4GKKZ010638@floodgap.com>
References: <201112200416.pBK4GKKZ010638@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <4EF0229C.1090507@neurotica.com>

On 12/19/2011 11:16 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> I'm reminded of the femtocell offerings by cell phone carriers
>
> I don't have a femtocell, I have a repeater. I stuck a mast on my own roof
> and ran it to an 3G amplifier I purchased off the shelf. Supposedly it has
> the ability to detect when the repeated signal is not in phase and reduce
> its power to avoid interfering with the master signal. Seems to work well
> as I'm getting three to four bars through the house, whereas before I had
> several dead areas.
>
> And the best part is, I'm not having to sacrifice any of my T1 for that.

   That is *awesome*.  Can you send me a URL for what you have?  I'm 
doing lots of M2M development now, and this would be extremely handy.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From d_cymbal at hotmail.com  Mon Dec 19 16:30:51 2011
From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 17:30:51 -0500
Subject: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
Message-ID: <BLU159-W58CB4D711C5D3D3BA2771AECA70@phx.gbl>


Does anybody have a Visual 1050 with hard drive setup?  I am looking for any doc/pointers on how to get a hard drive configured under CP/M for this system.

Thanks.

 		 	   		  

From jks at jksq.com  Mon Dec 19 21:35:38 2011
From: jks at jksq.com (jim sweeney)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:35:38 -0800
Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation?
Message-ID: <FBBC418FBDBA49899252A18EB41DC8F9@JKSJKS>

I founded CMC in 1968 assuming we're talking of the same Los Angeles based
firm.  If you want any information about it, contact me and I'll try to fill
you in.

 

Jim Sweeney 

 

Law Offices of James K. Sweeney

2001 Wilshire Blvd.; Ste. 200

Santa Monica  CA  90403

Tel:  310-477-0272     

Fax: 310-496-0122

e-mail:   jks at jksq.com

website: www.jksq.com

 



From jks at jksq.com  Mon Dec 19 21:35:38 2011
From: jks at jksq.com (jim sweeney)
Date: Mon, 19 Dec 2011 19:35:38 -0800
Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation?
Message-ID: <9C728F651D6C441CAE675132CE781D5A@JKSJKS>

I just saw your message about CMC which was the company I founded in 1968.
I had no idea people other than I ever thought about it anymore.  I can help
with information with anyone who is interested.

 

 Jim Sweeney

 

Law Offices of James K. Sweeney

2001 Wilshire Blvd.; Ste. 200

Santa Monica  CA  90403

Tel:  310-477-0272     

Fax: 310-496-0122

e-mail:   jks at jksq.com

website: www.jksq.com

 



From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au  Mon Dec 19 22:46:49 2011
From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:46:49 +1100
Subject: Unix shell design [was Re: Yes,
 Unix can do batch renames - Re: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"?]
In-Reply-To: <4EEFE4BD.3080808@neurotica.com>
References: <m1RY1fM-000J43C@p850ug1> <4EE60AC7.1010605@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111212205336.GB32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE69975.9000600@telegraphics.com.au>
 <20111213051316.GD32581@brevard.conman.org>
 <4EE7FD5A.3020000@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCH=iamjtM63myZFPog0x7LtMSRp+m98w18UuaG2dqu4qw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEA9D16.8030905@telegraphics.com.au> <4EEAAE4D.7070609@mail.msu.edu>
 <4EEB0C83.9090200@brouhaha.com> <4EEB8597.9080803@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112161855.NAA07487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC0ADA.6010804@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170609.BAA16878@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EEC4CD5.2000603@mail.msu.edu>
 <201112170901.EAA18965@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <CAMTenCHgyB8LzALU7LuXd8U+sCLaet5Mv_cS=M4vGUrjCPwmpA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EECE1EF.3070209@verizon.net>
 <A3DF41D9-5E82-4ACE-BA55-902F39D5C08A@gmail.com>
 <C167055B-FD15-4C4E-8AD8-8DDA802086E0@gmail.com>
 <4EEFE4BD.3080808@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <CB6F3A0C-59C6-430C-9082-523264A63156@kerberos.davies.net.au>


On 20/12/2011, at 12:28 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>  But anyway, they market these infernal devices with a strange technique.  They say glowingly, "...and when you're at home, you'll be able to use VOICE OVER IP!!!", and that's it.  As if that, in and of itself, is some wonderful thing that will make you extremely cool, help you lose weight, and enhance your sexual performance all in one fell swoop.

My telco promised Vestal Virgins as well ?

Still they do offer different call rates (basically untimed anywhere in Australia) for a fixed price (can't recall if it's 15c or 20c) so it's worth the $5 a month it costs me.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 




From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com  Tue Dec 20 02:07:23 2011
From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 08:07:23 -0000
Subject: Computer Machinery Corporation?
In-Reply-To: <FBBC418FBDBA49899252A18EB41DC8F9@JKSJKS>
References: <FBBC418FBDBA49899252A18EB41DC8F9@JKSJKS>
Message-ID: <B126E96419044CAF82179ACDD7EF55DB@Edicons.local>

CMC Key to disk/tape systems? I'm sure we had some in the uk

Regards 
?
Rod Smallwood
?
?


-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of jim sweeney
Sent: 20 December 2011 03:36
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Computer Machinery Corporation?

I founded CMC in 1968 assuming we're talking of the same Los Angeles based
firm.  If you want any information about it, contact me and I'll try to fill
you in.

 

Jim Sweeney 

 

Law Offices of James K. Sweeney

2001 Wilshire Blvd.; Ste. 200

Santa Monica  CA  90403

Tel:  310-477-0272     

Fax: 310-496-0122

e-mail:   jks at jksq.com

website: www.jksq.com

 






From jzg22 at drexel.edu  Tue Dec 20 02:30:57 2011
From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 03:30:57 -0500
Subject: rl02 and other disks from ebay
Message-ID: <4EF047C1.70200@drexel.edu>

If anyone bought any of those rl02 or other dec or classic disk packs 
and media from ebay, please PLEASE read the contents out before 
overwriting them!
I recently found a bunch of lost unix v5-era source code on erased space 
on an image of a disk pack image from dennis ritchie, archived 
unknowingly at tuhs, so who knows what other gems may be on those disks 
in erased space?
dump them with dd, not with dump, since dump ignores or zeroes out blank 
space. Tar obviously ignores blank space as well.

-- 
Jonathan Gevaryahu
jzg22 at drexel.edu



From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Tue Dec 20 03:56:26 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 10:56:26 +0100 (CET)
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>

On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote:
> never seen a RK05 in the wild, but what are the HUGE differences to
> the moderner Rack-Reels. I could supply this ones (HP or IBM, you
> choose). Even a small workshop is available here if mechanical

If you have to ask this question, then you clearly haven't seen old DEC 
equipment ;-)

Christian


From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 20 04:42:35 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 02:42:35 -0800
Subject: scan of manual for Processor Tech. 16KRA?
Message-ID: <4EF0669B.9010806@brouhaha.com>

Does anyone happen to have a scan of the manual for the Processor 
Technology 16KRA card?  Google isn't turning up anything.

Thanks!
Eric



From ajp166 at verizon.net  Tue Dec 20 06:37:48 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 07:37:48 -0500
Subject: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
In-Reply-To: <BLU159-W58CB4D711C5D3D3BA2771AECA70@phx.gbl>
References: <BLU159-W58CB4D711C5D3D3BA2771AECA70@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EF0819C.9070804@verizon.net>

On 12/19/2011 05:30 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
> Does anybody have a Visual 1050 with hard drive setup?  I am looking for any doc/pointers on how to get a hard drive configured under CP/M for this system.
>
> Thanks.
>
>   		 	   		
>
I do have two of them with HD, haven't powered it for a little while so 
memory is fuzzy.

As I remember it used a different copy of the bios (boot disk) to 
configure as the bios had to be aware of the hard drive.
I can look at docs but powering it up would take weeks to get to as 
other projects are in the forefront.


Allison


From lehmann at ans-netz.de  Tue Dec 20 06:52:05 2011
From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:52:05 +0100
Subject: recreating C source from binary
In-Reply-To: <4EEFB448.2020400@neurotica.com>
References: <20111218232505.Horde.hL38RaQd9PdO7mhBfqDEVcA@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <3FC3345D340143568B48DC5A9ED5607E@RANGER1>
 <20111219220641.Horde.tWTUJ6Qd9PdO76dhG0YBGS0@avocado.salatschuessel.net>
 <4EEFB448.2020400@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111220135205.Horde.MoQebaQd9PdO8IT1i0dRd38@avocado.salatschuessel.net>



Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:

> On 12/19/2011 04:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:
>> Finding someone with a ZEUS installation being able to send me the
>> C-Compiler
>> from the system could help but... yeah - finding someone with ZEUS is like
>> believing in Santa Claus ;)
>
>   I'm still kicking myself for selling my old System 8000 model 31.   
> It was a great system; I miss it a lot.  There wasn't really any  
> such thing as "classic computing" then...it was just "my old  
> machine", which I replaced with "my new machine". :-(

Shame on you ;)
Beside my eastern (as in communism) copy of the S8000 I also have a real
System 8000/21 but with so many missing party (tape drive, harddisk,
OS+Diagnostic tapes) that I really doubt that it will work one day...
the parts are just no longer available....


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 06:55:43 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:55:43 +0100
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hehe. I've seen that kind of equipment quite a few times. But the RackRails
were never that interesting ;)

Just tried to help out with items in stock.
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/20 Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>

> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote:
>
>> never seen a RK05 in the wild, but what are the HUGE differences to
>> the moderner Rack-Reels. I could supply this ones (HP or IBM, you
>> choose). Even a small workshop is available here if mechanical
>>
>
> If you have to ask this question, then you clearly haven't seen old DEC
> equipment ;-)
>
> Christian
>


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 06:56:54 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 13:56:54 +0100
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
 <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>

BTW: What Rails do I need for a 11/23+ CPU Box?



--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org



2011/12/20 Wolfgang Eichberger <oe5ewl at gmail.com>

> Hehe. I've seen that kind of equipment quite a few times. But the
> RackRails were never that interesting ;)
>
> Just tried to help out with items in stock.
>  --
> Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
> Operating System Collector
> Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
> Homepage: www.eichberger.org
>
>
>
>  2011/12/20 Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de>
>
>> On Mon, 19 Dec 2011, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote:
>>
>>> never seen a RK05 in the wild, but what are the HUGE differences to
>>> the moderner Rack-Reels. I could supply this ones (HP or IBM, you
>>> choose). Even a small workshop is available here if mechanical
>>>
>>
>> If you have to ask this question, then you clearly haven't seen old DEC
>> equipment ;-)
>>
>> Christian
>>
>
>


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 08:03:53 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:03:53 -0500
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
 <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2C05F490-4FF7-430A-B6B7-0C6515B7BC84@gmail.com>

On Dec 20, 2011, at 7:56 AM, Wolfgang Eichberger wrote:

> BTW: What Rails do I need for a 11/23+ CPU Box?

Assuming it's a BA11 (which I think was the original CPU box for the 11/23, but I could be mistaken), it's probably in the manual for the case.  The rails come in several parts (with brackets, etc), which the scrappers seem to sell almost universally for about $30 (US) each.

The BA23 (which I'm on the lookout for, if anyone has a spare; also looking for BA123) is in a similar boat.  I don't think any /23 or /23+s came in a BA23, though.

- Dave


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 09:19:18 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 09:19:18 -0600
Subject: rl02 and other disks from ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF047C1.70200@drexel.edu>
References: <4EF047C1.70200@drexel.edu>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs230LytE5D+MthqnLCx5UGht1vwrTdnkbZM7F4D8vRhT7g@mail.gmail.com>

if i can find a drive i will definatly make a image of the 2 i snaged


From jonas at otter.se  Tue Dec 20 05:16:22 2011
From: jonas at otter.se (jonas at otter.se)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:16:22 +0100
Subject: russian PDP-11 like K1801BM2 CPU Startup reading w/o,
 =?UTF-8?Q?address=3F?=
In-Reply-To: <mailman.623.1324366893.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.623.1324366893.1079.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <2044c57b950846c68c1f8ae5fdaa9e5f@otter.se>

>> CdS cells have quite a few problems that have made them obsolete for
>
> I don;t disagree that there are other devices that have advantages in
> many applciaitons, and it's entirely reasonable to then use said 
> other
> devices. But thee CdS photoresisto also has an advantage -- it's a
> resistor. At a constnat ligjht level, the I-V characteristic is 
> pretty
> darn lienar. That makes it ideal for the sort of amplitude-control
> application that we've been discussisng
>

 Indeed. They are probably perfectly good for photometric applications 
 too, where it doesn't matter if it takes some time for the cell to 
 adjust to the illumination.

 And as far as environmental issues are concerned, it would certainly be 
 much better to get rid of CFLs. There has actually been some coverage in 
 the news here about CFLs being thrown in glass recycling containers 
 instead of being handed in as toxic waste (there are reasonably easily 
 accessible places that accept toxic waste everyhere here as well, but 
 nowhere near as many or as accessible as glass recycling containers) and 
 causing problems at the recycling plants. LED lighting is being promoted 
 instead. So far, there has been no discussion about environmental issues 
 with semiconductor manufacturing...

 /Jonas


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 20 09:43:36 2011
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:43:36 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>

From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 12:47 AM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay

> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> 
> wrote:
>> I have an 11/05 which has a Perkin-Elmer drive just like the one you
>> describe.
>> In the bottom is a fixed (non-removable platter) and in the top you can 
>> load
>> an "RL-style" cartridge. This is from memory, the system is in the old 
>> house
>
>> PS. RL01 cartridges are not brown, but grey. RL02 are as you said blue.
>
> I hate to disagree with you, but mine look just like the ones at the
> bottom of this page...
>
>  http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html
>
> In person (i.e., with better lighting), the accent parts are a dark,
> chocolate brown.
>
> -ethan

That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have those 
packs :-)
I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?

greetz,
- Henk. 



From blkline at attglobal.net  Tue Dec 20 10:43:16 2011
From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 11:43:16 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EF0BB24.1010806@attglobal.net>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 12/20/2011 10:43 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have
> those packs :-)

Henk...

I just visited your site for the first time.  It's spectacular!  I
have some DEC stuff in my storage lockers that someday will be brought
out and reconditioned.  Your site really is an excellent resource.

Best regards,

Barry

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)

iD8DBQFO8LskCFu3bIiwtTARAg6cAJ0THrg1aFJxik1clQrs1+V+qzVE/ACgiihq
Cy19Gj3gNAgOmULIoTXOze0=
=gI35
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 11:09:34 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 15:09:34 -0200
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF0BB24.1010806@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <021b01ccbf3a$aae89780$6500a8c0@tababook>

> I just visited your site for the first time.  It's spectacular!  I
> have some DEC stuff in my storage lockers that someday will be brought
> out and reconditioned.  Your site really is an excellent resource.

    The site is incredible, but I liked the call sign PA8PDP :oD 

    73 de PU1BZZ Alexandre :o)

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Tue Dec 20 11:18:06 2011
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 18:18:06 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF0BB24.1010806@attglobal.net>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF0BB24.1010806@attglobal.net>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds2ADB655667B028852EB0486A40@phx.gbl>

Hello Barry,

thanks for the kind words. I hope the storage lockers are dry ...!
I have spent very little time on my site the last 2 years :-/
I plan to do better next year!  Still to be added to my website are my last
active "acquisitions": a PDP-11/20, the famous VT05 and the CMS11-K!
The CMS11-K is the DIGITAL card reader, not the M200 (?) Datamation
card reader rebadged by DIGITAL.

kind regards, and Happy Season's days!
- Henk.



--------------------------------------------------
From: "Barry L. Kline" <blkline at attglobal.net>
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 5:43 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay

> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> On 12/20/2011 10:43 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have
>> those packs :-)
>
> Henk...
>
> I just visited your site for the first time.  It's spectacular!  I
> have some DEC stuff in my storage lockers that someday will be brought
> out and reconditioned.  Your site really is an excellent resource.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Barry
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iD8DBQFO8LskCFu3bIiwtTARAg6cAJ0THrg1aFJxik1clQrs1+V+qzVE/ACgiihq
> Cy19Gj3gNAgOmULIoTXOze0=
> =gI35
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 


From billdeg at degnanco.com  Tue Dec 20 13:53:12 2011
From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:53:12 -0500
Subject: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
Message-ID: <67dc0768$4650eaa1$4d9bb215$@com>

> 
> On 12/19/2011 05:30 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
> > Does anybody have a Visual 1050 with hard drive setup?  I am looking 
for any doc/pointers on how to get a hard drive configured under CP/M for 
this system.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> >   		 	   		
> >
> I do have two of them with HD, haven't powered it for a little while so 
> memory is fuzzy.
> 
> As I remember it used a different copy of the bios (boot disk) to 
> configure as the bios had to be aware of the hard drive.
> I can look at docs but powering it up would take weeks to get to as 
> other projects are in the forefront.
> 
> 

That's correct.  There is a special disk to set up the hard drive.   I 
think you have to have this disk in drive A in order to read the hard 
drive, I don't think one can simply boot a 1050 to harddrive.  I plan to 
work on this system over the next few months, I will document the process 
on my site when I do.  I also am knee-deep in projects at the moment.
Bill




From IanK at vulcan.com  Tue Dec 20 14:15:06 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 20:15:06 +0000
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <021b01ccbf3a$aae89780$6500a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <CB162C4F.A297%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/20/11 9:09 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com>
wrote:

>> I just visited your site for the first time.  It's spectacular!  I
>> have some DEC stuff in my storage lockers that someday will be brought
>> out and reconditioned.  Your site really is an excellent resource.
>
>    The site is incredible, but I liked the call sign PA8PDP :oD
>
>    73 de PU1BZZ Alexandre :o)
>
That is a pretty cool call sign, if I say so myself - Ian K7PDP ;-)
>




From paco.linux at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 14:26:37 2011
From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:26:37 +0100
Subject: unknown machine
Message-ID: <CALL4=N4naE+RNWTcRjd0xP_iHrOKG9fOmCqXjsZqS4iBkVzXLg@mail.gmail.com>

Any Idea ? (located in San Diego Supercomputer Center, fujitsu machines)


http://oi39.tinypic.com/255pcn4.jpg

-- 
|_|0|_|
|_|_|0|           ???
|0|0|0|



From aek at bitsavers.org  Tue Dec 20 14:42:03 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 12:42:03 -0800
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <CALL4=N4naE+RNWTcRjd0xP_iHrOKG9fOmCqXjsZqS4iBkVzXLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALL4=N4naE+RNWTcRjd0xP_iHrOKG9fOmCqXjsZqS4iBkVzXLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF0F31B.5020100@bitsavers.org>

On 12/20/11 12:26 PM, Paco Linux wrote:
> Any Idea ? (located in San Diego Supercomputer Center, fujitsu machines)
>

23xx 8" disk drives, sitting on their sides.




From eric at brouhaha.com  Tue Dec 20 18:11:13 2011
From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:11:13 -0800
Subject: PT 32KRA (was Re: scan of manual for Processor Tech. 16KRA?)
In-Reply-To: <4EF0669B.9010806@brouhaha.com>
References: <4EF0669B.9010806@brouhaha.com>
Message-ID: <4EF12421.5050708@brouhaha.com>

I wrote:

 > Does anyone happen to have a scan of the manual for the
 > Processor Technology 16KRA card?  Google isn't turning up anything.

Oops!  I meant 32KRA.  Someone was kind enough to send me a 16KRA, but 
the cards I have are 32KRA.

Thanks!
Eric



From chris at mainecoon.com  Tue Dec 20 18:53:11 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 16:53:11 -0800
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <CALL4=N4naE+RNWTcRjd0xP_iHrOKG9fOmCqXjsZqS4iBkVzXLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALL4=N4naE+RNWTcRjd0xP_iHrOKG9fOmCqXjsZqS4iBkVzXLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E2CDF84A-71E9-4572-A52B-A8CD1DCC6CE8@mainecoon.com>


On 20 Dec 2011, at 12:26 PM, Paco Linux wrote:

> Any Idea ? (located in San Diego Supercomputer Center, fujitsu machines)

They look like 8" Fujitsu SMD drives, 2322-ish.  About 100 years ago I had one of those connected to MacPlus via an Emulex SCSI/SMD adapter.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec 20 22:45:45 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 21:45:45 -0700
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
Message-ID: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>

<http://www.collectiveaccess.org/news/?p=230>

-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 22:51:01 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:51:01 -0600
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>

?


On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:45 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:

> <http://www.collectiveaccess.org/news/?p=230>
>
> --
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for
> download
>  <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
>
>      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
>


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 21 00:24:17 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:24:17 -0700
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
    Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes:

> ?

!
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From IanK at vulcan.com  Wed Dec 21 00:29:10 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 06:29:10 +0000
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <E2CDF84A-71E9-4572-A52B-A8CD1DCC6CE8@mainecoon.com>
Message-ID: <CB16BC6B.A32D%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/20/11 4:53 PM, "Christian Kennedy" <chris at mainecoon.com> wrote:

>
>On 20 Dec 2011, at 12:26 PM, Paco Linux wrote:
>
>> Any Idea ? (located in San Diego Supercomputer Center, fujitsu machines)
>
>They look like 8" Fujitsu SMD drives, 2322-ish.  About 100 years ago I
>had one of those connected to MacPlus via an Emulex SCSI/SMD adapter.
>
>--

Really?!?  That's very cool.  Was there enough Mac software in the world
at the time to fill the drive?   :-)  




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 21 00:29:10 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:29:10 -0500
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <2C05F490-4FF7-430A-B6B7-0C6515B7BC84@gmail.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
 <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C05F490-4FF7-430A-B6B7-0C6515B7BC84@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <26A29D65-7752-48F6-99B2-201D00C27E24@neurotica.com>

On Dec 20, 2011, at 9:03 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
> The BA23 (which I'm on the lookout for, if anyone has a spare; also looking for BA123) is in a similar boat.  I don't think any /23 or /23+s came in a BA23, though.

  They did; a lab I worked in many years ago had a direct-from-DEC 11/23 in a BA23 chassis.  It was rackmounted with an expansion chassis, running RSX.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 21 00:30:40 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 01:30:40 -0500
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>

On Dec 21, 2011, at 1:24 AM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> In article <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
>    Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> ?
> 
> !

  You...you...you PUNCTUATORS, you! ;)

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From healyzh at aracnet.com  Wed Dec 21 00:40:31 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:40:31 -0800
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <p06240818cb172f8688b4@[192.168.1.199]>

At 11:24 PM -0700 12/20/11, Richard wrote:
>In article 
><CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
>     Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes:
>
>  > ?
>
>!

Well, that was helpful.  I rather thought Adrian asked a legit question.

Clicking on that URL doesn't offer much in the way of an explanation. 
For example, is it MARC database compatible?

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 15:17:03 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:17:03 +0100
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <4EF0F31B.5020100@bitsavers.org>
References: <CALL4=N4naE+RNWTcRjd0xP_iHrOKG9fOmCqXjsZqS4iBkVzXLg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EF0F31B.5020100@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <78FAB4A3-4AB8-4999-96D8-8222716F477D@gmail.com>

Hi all, I'm new to the classic computing hobby, but I recently  
purchased a DEC rack with exactly this thing it. Heavy stuff, but  
mine's a lot less 'minty'. Not running on anything yet. Scared to turn  
it on, to be honest. At least holding it off until I've cleaned it :)

Regards,

Sander Reiche

On Dec 20, 2011, at 21:42, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> On 12/20/11 12:26 PM, Paco Linux wrote:
>> Any Idea ? (located in San Diego Supercomputer Center, fujitsu  
>> machines)
>>
>
> 23xx 8" disk drives, sitting on their sides.
>
>


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Tue Dec 20 15:24:19 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 22:24:19 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds2ADB655667B028852EB0486A40@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF0BB24.1010806@attglobal.net>
 <BAY155-ds2ADB655667B028852EB0486A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <17E6C32A-1356-469E-9F8A-173CD187FF10@gmail.com>

Oeh, VT05! Prachtding lijkt me dat..

groet,

Sander Reiche

On Dec 20, 2011, at 18:18, "Henk Gooijen" <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com>  
wrote:

> Hello Barry,
>
> thanks for the kind words. I hope the storage lockers are dry ...!
> I have spent very little time on my site the last 2 years :-/
> I plan to do better next year!  Still to be added to my website are  
> my last
> active "acquisitions": a PDP-11/20, the famous VT05 and the CMS11-K!
> The CMS11-K is the DIGITAL card reader, not the M200 (?) Datamation
> card reader rebadged by DIGITAL.
>
> kind regards, and Happy Season's days!
> - Henk.
>
>
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "Barry L. Kline" <blkline at attglobal.net>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 5:43 PM
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org 
> >
> Subject: Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> On 12/20/2011 10:43 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
>>> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have
>>> those packs :-)
>>
>> Henk...
>>
>> I just visited your site for the first time.  It's spectacular!  I
>> have some DEC stuff in my storage lockers that someday will be  
>> brought
>> out and reconditioned.  Your site really is an excellent resource.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Barry
>>
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
>> Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux)
>>
>> iD8DBQFO8LskCFu3bIiwtTARAg6cAJ0THrg1aFJxik1clQrs1+V+qzVE/ACgiihq
>> Cy19Gj3gNAgOmULIoTXOze0=
>> =gI35
>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Wed Dec 21 01:11:53 2011
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 08:11:53 +0100
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <p06240818cb172f8688b4@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <p06240818cb172f8688b4@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <20111221071153.GA4161@Update.UU.SE>

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 10:40:31PM -0800, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Clicking on that URL doesn't offer much in the way of an
> explanation. For example, is it MARC database compatible?

I think Richard assumed we would know what CollectiveAccess is since it 
has been discussed here before:

http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2011-March/110553.html

Also, clickin "about" in the link gives you some basic info:

http://www.collectiveaccess.org/about/overview

And they have a wiki which goes into more detail:

http://wiki.collectiveaccess.org/index.php?title=Main_Page

/P


From jws at jwsss.com  Wed Dec 21 01:36:59 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 23:36:59 -0800
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>

On 12/20/2011 10:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2011, at 1:24 AM, Richard<legalize at xmission.com>  wrote:
>> In article<CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>     Adrian Stoness<tdk.knight at gmail.com>  writes:
>>
>>> ?
>> !
>    You...you...you PUNCTUATORS, you! ;)
>
when he opens his museum the same special characters will be used for 
the signage.

Dec VT100 !
Hazeltine 1500 *
IBM 3270 ?

I suspect the topic is pretty high on his list, actually, since he is 
pretty well organized from his photographs.  I didn't post anything till 
now, but do want to compliment his space and collection.  It is nice to 
see such an extensive collection, and hopefully when he gets it into 
some tool like this, we can see what he has in detail.

Jim


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Dec 21 03:38:27 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:38:27 +0000
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>

Henk Gooijen wrote:

> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have those 
> packs :-)
> I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?

No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Dec 21 03:38:25 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:38:25 +0000
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <26A29D65-7752-48F6-99B2-201D00C27E24@neurotica.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
 <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C05F490-4FF7-430A-B6B7-0C6515B7BC84@gmail.com>
 <26A29D65-7752-48F6-99B2-201D00C27E24@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EF1A911.9020909@dunnington.plus.com>

Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Dec 20, 2011, at 9:03 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>> The BA23 (which I'm on the lookout for, if anyone has a spare; also looking for BA123) is in a similar boat.  I don't think any /23 or /23+s came in a BA23, though.
> 
>   They did; a lab I worked in many years ago had a direct-from-DEC 11/23 in a BA23 chassis.  It was rackmounted with an expansion chassis, running RSX.

The microPDP-11/23plus came in a BA23, usually the "storage heater" 
deskside style, but occasionally as a rackmount, which is the same box 
but without the skins.

The PDP-11/23 and 11/23+ came in a BA11N or BA11S, and those don't have 
conventional rails.  Instead they have a wrap-around black steel cover 
which is bolted into the rack.  It covers the top and the sides, with 
two front flanges that bolt to the front uprights of the rack, and 
adjustable panels at the rear of the sides which bolt to the rear 
uprights.  The sides each have a small lip  bent under the body which 
the BA11N/S box slides onto.  From the front it looks a bit like this 
(if you have a fixed-width font!):

      __________________________________
   |o|                                  |o|
   | |                                  | |
   |o|_                                _|o|


-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From dgahling at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 21 08:58:03 2011
From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:58:03 -0500
Subject: breaking out of *n*x jails
In-Reply-To: <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75@505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
 <E1RavjO-0000jX-9d@shell.xmission.com>,
 <20111214212112.GD1343@brevard.conman.org>
Message-ID: <BLU166-W169AE3762C0905CB7737C2C9A50@phx.gbl>


then don't let them sudo bash.restrict sudo to the actual binary they need to run.simple.
and don't forget: sudo make me a sandwich
Dan.

> Date: Wed, 14 Dec 2011 16:21:12 -0500
> From: spc at conman.org
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: breaking out of *n*x jails
> 
> It was thus said that the Great Richard once stated:
> > 
> > In article <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA4D7E8D75 at 505MBX1.corp.vnw.com>,
> >     Rich Alderson <RichA at vulcan.com> writes:
> > 
> > > That's an awful lot of schratzing around to accomplish what a simple
> > > 
> > >     GUNRUP% sudo /bin/bash
> > > 
> > > will do for you.  (I use this frequently on my Snow Leopard system.)
> > 
> > Is there some reason you don't do 'sudo -i'?
> 
>   Basically, yes.  I *loathe* sudo [1], so the less I have to use it, the
> better.  I made the assumption that sudo bash (or any other number of
> commands that have been presented) were locked, because what's the *point*
> of sudo if you can just simply do "sudo bash"?  [3]  
> 
>   -spc (sudo this, sudo that, sudo something else ... for more than one
> 	command, sudo is an annoyance ... )
> 
> [1]	It doesn't protect the system at *all*.  Or rather, to prevent shell
> 	access via sudo [2], you need to go to insane lengths in tightening
> 	down the system.  @#$@#$ that!  I'll su, thank you very much.
> 
> [2]	Because root shell access can cause a great amount of damage.  [3]
> 
> [3]	Sudo was to allow non-root users to do root-like things, but *not*
> 	to run a @#$@ shell, or else, why not just give the users root
> 	access?  I mean---hello!  Am I missing something?
> 
 		 	   		  

From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 21 09:28:51 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:28:51 -0500
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <4EF1A911.9020909@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
 <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C05F490-4FF7-430A-B6B7-0C6515B7BC84@gmail.com>
 <26A29D65-7752-48F6-99B2-201D00C27E24@neurotica.com>
 <4EF1A911.9020909@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <7BEC37C3-B5D8-4A06-9576-50D70ED8AE3F@neurotica.com>

On Dec 21, 2011, at 4:38 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
> Dave McGuire wrote:
>> On Dec 20, 2011, at 9:03 AM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The BA23 (which I'm on the lookout for, if anyone has a spare; also looking for BA123) is in a similar boat.  I don't think any /23 or /23+s came in a BA23, though.
>>  They did; a lab I worked in many years ago had a direct-from-DEC 11/23 in a BA23 chassis.  It was rackmounted with an expansion chassis, running RSX.
> 
> The microPDP-11/23plus came in a BA23, usually the "storage heater" deskside style, but occasionally as a rackmount, which is the same box but without the skins.
> 
> The PDP-11/23 and 11/23+ came in a BA11N or BA11S, and those don't have conventional rails.

  ...both very much PDP-11/23s, regardless of the sticker on the front. ;)

> Instead they have a wrap-around black steel cover which is bolted into the rack.  It covers the top and the sides, with two front flanges that bolt to the front uprights of the rack, and adjustable panels at the rear of the sides which bolt to the rear uprights.  The sides each have a small lip  bent under the body which the BA11N/S box slides onto.  From the front it looks a bit like this (if you have a fixed-width font!):
> 
>     __________________________________
>  |o|                                  |o|
>  | |                                  | |

  ...and I'm looking for one or two sets of the rear flanges, if anyone has spares.

               -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 21 10:56:33 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:56:33 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>

On 12/21/2011 04:38 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> Henk Gooijen wrote:
>
>> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have
>> those packs :-)
>> I'd swear it is grey, not brown. Are my eyes really getting that bad?
>
> No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!

   My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement about Cray J90 
racks.  We'll both be standing in front of one, I'll say "this is 
brown!" and she'll say "you're nuts, that's gray!"

   I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a few packs here; 
they look distinctly brown to me.  I will ask my fiancee' what color she 
thinks they are the next time an opportunity arises.

   Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From blstuart at bellsouth.net  Wed Dec 21 11:02:13 2011
From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:02:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <1324486933.70530.YahooMailClassic@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

> > No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
> 
> ? My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement
> about Cray J90 racks.? We'll both be standing in front
> of one, I'll say "this is brown!" and she'll say "you're
> nuts, that's gray!"
> 
> ? I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a
> few packs here; they look distinctly brown to me.? I
> will ask my fiancee' what color she thinks they are the next
> time an opportunity arises.
> 
> ? Is there some difference in visual perception going
> on here?

Must be.  I've always thought they were grey.

BLS




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 21 11:11:09 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:11:09 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <1324486933.70530.YahooMailClassic@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1324486933.70530.YahooMailClassic@web83909.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EF2132D.6000807@neurotica.com>

On 12/21/2011 12:02 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote:
>>> No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
>>
>>    My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement
>> about Cray J90 racks.  We'll both be standing in front
>> of one, I'll say "this is brown!" and she'll say "you're
>> nuts, that's gray!"
>>
>>    I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a
>> few packs here; they look distinctly brown to me.  I
>> will ask my fiancee' what color she thinks they are the next
>> time an opportunity arises.
>>
>>    Is there some difference in visual perception going
>> on here?
>
> Must be.  I've always thought they were grey.

   This is the strangest thing.

   Have you seen any of the earlier 8000-series VAXen (8700, 8800, etc) 
with the dark bar up to and the raised light-colored lettering?  If so, 
what color do you perceive for that dark bar?

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 21 11:26:49 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:26:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <201112211726.MAA18304@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement about Cray J90
> racks.  We'll both be standing in front of one, I'll say "this is
> brown!" and she'll say "you're nuts, that's gray!"

> Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?

There very well could be.  There are multiple alleles for many of the
genes behind colour perception, and at least one of them is on the X
chromosome and thus a woman may have two different copies (though it's
not entirely clear whether that would actually give her tetrachromatic
vision).  But yes, it is entirely plausible that the same incoming
spectrum produces clearly different percepts in different people - and
of course it's also possible that different people have learned to use
different words even when the percepts are as similar as they can be.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 21 11:36:35 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:36:35 -0700
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
 <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <E1RdQ5j-0006Rl-Bt@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EF18C9B.6080606 at jwsss.com>,
    Jim Stephens <jws at jwsss.com> writes:

> I suspect the topic is pretty high on his list, actually, since he is 
> pretty well organized from his photographs.  I didn't post anything till 
> now, but do want to compliment his space and collection.

Thanks, it's been a lot of work since Sept. to prep this space (it was
amazingly filthy and needed paint), move everything from the old space
and start organizing it.  I hope to finish organizing the collection
into "visible storage" by the end of the year.

> It is nice to 
> see such an extensive collection, and hopefully when he gets it into 
> some tool like this, we can see what he has in detail.

Bingo!  That's exactly the idea.  Jay West has kindly offered me
hosting space for the CA implementation.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From spc at conman.org  Wed Dec 21 11:37:58 2011
From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:37:58 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
References: <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111221173758.GB3689@brevard.conman.org>

It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated:
> 
>   My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement about Cray J90 
> racks.  We'll both be standing in front of one, I'll say "this is 
> brown!" and she'll say "you're nuts, that's gray!"
> 
>   Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?

  Could be.  I know that I see slightly different hues out each eye.  It's
only noticable in bright light though.  I attribute this oddity to stupidity
on my part [1] as a kid.

  -spc (And I find that M.A.S.H. looks funny [2] in color)

[1]	I had a telescope as a kid, and there was this huge warning not to
	look directly at the sun through it.  Yup, there's a good reason for
	that warning.

[2]	I had a small B&W television set as a kid.  M.A.S.H. was one of my
	favorite shows and thus, I always saw it in B&W.  So now, it just
	looks "odd" to me in color.  I don't have this issue with any other
	show.


From vrs at msn.com  Wed Dec 21 11:50:22 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 09:50:22 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl>

From: Pete Turnbull; Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:38 AM
> Henk Gooijen wrote:
>> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have those 
>> packs :-)
>> I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?
> 
> No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!

I'm afraid my wife and I agree with Ethan that the color is more brown 
than grey.  Maybe it's a European thing :-)?

I do have to admit that in some light the brownish tint is much more 
noticeable than otherwise.  "Cool blue" light makes it look greyer to me.

(Hey, it beats editor wars!)

On an unrelated note, I finally finished a website update that I have been 
working on and off on for over a year (www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8).

    Vince
 


From schoedel at kw.igs.net  Wed Dec 21 11:55:39 2011
From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (schoedel at kw.igs.net)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:55:39 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:56:33 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote
>    I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a few packs here;
> they look distinctly brown to me.  I will ask my fiancee' what color 
> she thinks they are the next time an opportunity arises.
> 
>    Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?

Were they *always* brown? Age-related yellowing of the eye's lens could be a factor.

Surely someone here owns a vintage spectrophotometer, or at least a camera and
grey card.

-- 
Kevin Schoedel <schoedel at kw.igs.net> VA3TCS



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 12:09:47 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:09:47 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com> <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
Message-ID: <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:55 PM,  <schoedel at kw.igs.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:56:33 -0500, Dave McGuire wrote
>> ? ?I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a few packs here;
>> they look distinctly brown to me. ?I will ask my fiancee' what color
>> she thinks they are the next time an opportunity arises.
>>
>> ? ?Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?
>
> Were they *always* brown? Age-related yellowing of the eye's lens could be a factor.

Not in my case - I've owned RL01 packs since I was 19.  I thought they
looked dark brown then and look dark brown now.

And I know (i.e., have been tested) I am not colorblind.

It's also possible that since I run them at home (under incandescent
light and sunlight) and some may have only seen them in data centers
(cool white florescent) there's a perception difference based on input
spectrum.

> Surely someone here owns a vintage spectrophotometer, or at least a camera and
> grey card.

I do not own a spectrophotometer, but a gray card wouldn't be hard to score.

-ethan



From jfoust at threedee.com  Wed Dec 21 12:11:21 2011
From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:11:21 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com> <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
Message-ID: <201112211811.pBLIBT8i095090@billy.ezwind.net>

At 11:55 AM 12/21/2011, schoedel at kw.igs.net wrote:
>Were they *always* brown? Age-related yellowing of the eye's lens could be a factor.

Plastics can change color over time, depending on what sun and chemicals
they were exposed to, and different batches of plastic can change differently.

- John
 



From vrs at msn.com  Wed Dec 21 12:36:27 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 10:36:27 -0800
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
 <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP31867F669508AD743448CDDB2A50@phx.gbl>

From: Ethan Dicks; Wednesday, December 21, 2011 10:09 AM
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 12:55 PM,  <schoedel at kw.igs.net> wrote:
>> Surely someone here owns a vintage spectrophotometer, or at least a camera 
>> and
>> grey card.
>
> I do not own a spectrophotometer, but a gray card wouldn't be hard to score.

I went to Henk's site, downloaded the picture, cropped a brown/grey area, 
quantized
to 256 colors, and the colors I got (that are actually used) are
36, 28, 28
52, 36, 36
36, 44, 36
36, 36, 36
44, 28, 28
44, 36, 20
36, 36, 28
44, 44, 36
44, 36, 36
44, 36, 28

So, there's a hint of red/brown there, even in Henk's example, and it shows 
through
even through the lossy medium of the web :-).  But it isn't much.

    Vince
 



From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 12:54:52 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 12:54:52 -0600
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EF22B7C.9040703@gmail.com>

Richard wrote:
> In article <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
>     Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes:
> 
>> ?
> 
> !

#!/bin/google




From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 21 13:17:25 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:17:25 -0500
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
 <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF230C5.5000504@neurotica.com>

On 12/21/2011 01:09 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>>>     I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a few packs here;
>>> they look distinctly brown to me.  I will ask my fiancee' what color
>>> she thinks they are the next time an opportunity arises.
>>>
>>>     Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?
>>
>> Were they *always* brown? Age-related yellowing of the eye's lens could be a factor.
>
> Not in my case - I've owned RL01 packs since I was 19.  I thought they
> looked dark brown then and look dark brown now.
>
> And I know (i.e., have been tested) I am not colorblind.

   Same response here.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From colineby at isallthat.com  Wed Dec 21 13:20:12 2011
From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 19:20:12 +0000
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
 <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>

The National Museum of Computing at Bletchely Park is using Collective Access. As the server's current keeper I can heartily recommend it.
-- Colin

Jim Stephens <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

On 12/20/2011 10:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2011, at 1:24 AM, Richard<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>> In article<CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
>> Adrian Stoness<tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> ?
>> !
> You...you...you PUNCTUATORS, you! ;)
>
when he opens his museum the same special characters will be used for 
the signage.

Dec VT100 !
Hazeltine 1500 *
IBM 3270 ?

I suspect the topic is pretty high on his list, actually, since he is 
pretty well organized from his photographs. I didn't post anything till 
now, but do want to compliment his space and collection. It is nice to 
see such an extensive collection, and hopefully when he gets it into 
some tool like this, we can see what he has in detail.

Jim



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 21 13:33:36 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 11:33:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com> <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
 <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111221113214.F61131@shell.lmi.net>

> > Surely someone here owns a vintage spectrophotometer, or at least a camera and
> > grey card.
> I do not own a spectrophotometer, but a gray card wouldn't be hard to score.

Who has access to Pantone?



From curt at atarimuseum.com  Wed Dec 21 13:38:35 2011
From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:38:35 -0500
Subject: Shameless Plug....
In-Reply-To: <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
 <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
 <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <4EF235BB.5090500@atarimuseum.com>

FYI....

Shameless (shameful?) hey - its a plug....

:-)


Book Project on the history of Atari from its beginnings to 1984 has 
been launched, please pass the word around and thank you...


http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ataribook/atari-history-book-volume-1-beginnings-to-1984



Curt




From mokuba at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 13:44:19 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:44:19 -0500
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
 <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
 <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh6TOw-9j0GNeSMFJCJpW_qY-=wpWny1Rj5vGCFjPqyfTg@mail.gmail.com>

This almost looks like exactly what I need for a ~home~ inventory
system. Or is there anything better out there?

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Colin Eby <colineby at isallthat.com> wrote:
> The National Museum of Computing at Bletchely Park is using Collective Access. As the server's current keeper I can heartily recommend it.
> -- Colin
>
> Jim Stephens <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
>
> On 12/20/2011 10:30 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>> On Dec 21, 2011, at 1:24 AM, Richard<legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>>> In article<CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> Adrian Stoness<tdk.knight at gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> ?
>>> !
>> You...you...you PUNCTUATORS, you! ;)
>>
> when he opens his museum the same special characters will be used for
> the signage.
>
> Dec VT100 !
> Hazeltine 1500 *
> IBM 3270 ?
>
> I suspect the topic is pretty high on his list, actually, since he is
> pretty well organized from his photographs. I didn't post anything till
> now, but do want to compliment his space and collection. It is nice to
> see such an extensive collection, and hopefully when he gets it into
> some tool like this, we can see what he has in detail.
>
> Jim
>



-- 
Gary G. Sparkes Jr.
KB3HAG


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 14:02:36 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 15:02:36 -0500
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
 <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
 <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGX3yaUV6-93t7rPDxXd=uxFeP_ktwF+v6J1v_qu5+=hgA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Colin Eby <colineby at isallthat.com> wrote:

> The National Museum of Computing at Bletchely Park is using Collective
> Access. As the server's current keeper I can heartily recommend it.
> -- Colin
>

So when I set up CA for my personal collection, how do I configure it so I
can get an intra-collection loan of a Bombe from you guys? :)


From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 21 14:17:09 2011
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:17:09 +0100
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
 <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111221113214.F61131@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <20111221175026.M88349@kw.igs.net>
 <CAALmimnj6JcS6adKYCS_s1PtdtnsfJhPLJYxWc7qYwVzXeNDSw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20111221113214.F61131@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds12B21B887ADCC56153B89286A50@phx.gbl>

From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 8:33 PM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay

>> > Surely someone here owns a vintage spectrophotometer, or at least a 
>> > camera and
>> > grey card.
>> I do not own a spectrophotometer, but a gray card wouldn't be hard to 
>> score.
>
> Who has access to Pantone?
>
I *had* color measuring capabilities available to me, but I left Oc? 4 years 
ago.
Since then I have not scanned any document either. Gee, I miss the Oc?3165
(scanning A4 and A3 at 256 grey levels).
Vince did a nice try, but I have to say that those pictures are taken back 
then
when I used a Hi-8 with "still picture" capability (digital camera's were 
expensive
in 1999). Ok, the brownish may be present, but (perhaps) I will take new 
pictures
this month. Still, to me the RL01 cartridge label is grey ... :-)

greetz,
- Henk. 



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 14:38:24 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:38:24 -0600
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20we=U65r36J4mxKN2i-6t+m9K1AJ9YuocijDcd=va=Ww@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote:

> From: Pete Turnbull; Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:38 AM
>
>  Henk Gooijen wrote:
>>
>>> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have those
>>> packs :-)
>>> I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?
>>>
>>
>> No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
>>
>
> I'm afraid my wife and I agree with Ethan that the color is more brown
> than grey.  Maybe it's a European thing :-)?
>
> I do have to admit that in some light the brownish tint is much more
> noticeable than otherwise.  "Cool blue" light makes it look greyer to me.
>
> (Hey, it beats editor wars!)
>
> On an unrelated note, I finally finished a website update that I have been
> working on and off on for over a year (www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8).
>
>   Vince
>
>

nice site


From colineby at isallthat.com  Wed Dec 21 14:42:30 2011
From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 20:42:30 +0000
Subject: FYI: CollectiveAccess 1.1 released
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGX3yaUV6-93t7rPDxXd=uxFeP_ktwF+v6J1v_qu5+=hgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <E1RdE3l-0001zO-H2@shell.xmission.com>
 <CAA3rs23B-6s2BpQwh2Kw6iWdV=gpYBCYDhE3G9zumWQyNNg25A@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RdFb8-0000tY-0S@shell.xmission.com>
 <FC921FD8-42C6-4725-BC32-78B28A1CACCA@neurotica.com>
 <4EF18C9B.6080606@jwsss.com>
 <1c19542c-172d-4204-a7a1-ad39495789a4@email.android.com>
 <CAHG8iGX3yaUV6-93t7rPDxXd=uxFeP_ktwF+v6J1v_qu5+=hgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1324500150.6139.8.camel@hp0>

Ah.... sadly the Bombe rebuild is owned by Bletchley Park itself. The
National Museum of Computing is a tenant of the park.  We have lots of
organisational ties. Regrettably none of them involve BP sharing their
recent largess from Google.  If you look closely you will find a hint
there!

On the other hand, we do have Colossus, Tunny, the Harwich Dekatron (aka
WITCH), a veritable family reunion of Elliotts, plus loads of other
goodies. I often joke that we have enough Sinclair ZX81s to re-tile my
bathroom, kitchen and front hall. All these public treasures cry out for
appreciation, love, support, and (less subtle hint) money! Visit!
Donate! Volunteer! 

www.tnmoc.org

That's enough plugging and exclamation marks for now.

On Wed, 2011-12-21 at 15:02 -0500, Jason McBrien wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 2:20 PM, Colin Eby <colineby at isallthat.com> wrote:
> 
> > The National Museum of Computing at Bletchely Park is using Collective
> > Access. As the server's current keeper I can heartily recommend it.
> > -- Colin
> >
> 
> So when I set up CA for my personal collection, how do I configure it so I
> can get an intra-collection loan of a Bombe from you guys? :)
> 


-- Colin


From vrs at msn.com  Wed Dec 21 15:19:12 2011
From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:19:12 -0800
Subject: website (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20we=U65r36J4mxKN2i-6t+m9K1AJ9YuocijDcd=va=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl>
 <CAA3rs20we=U65r36J4mxKN2i-6t+m9K1AJ9YuocijDcd=va=Ww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLU0-SMTP298855B46D84C8D84653F55B2A50@phx.gbl>

From: Adrian Stoness; Wednesday, December 21, 2011 12:38 PM
> On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 11:50 AM, Vincent Slyngstad <vrs at msn.com> wrote:
>> On an unrelated note, I finally finished a website update that I have been
>> working on and off on for over a year (www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8).
>
> nice site

Thanks!  Much of it ended up being just a "nickel tour" of the more important
pieces that I have, but I'm fairly proud of the work I'm doing on flip-chip and
other schematics.  A couple of the project pages are OK, too.

I still need to create pages for the 8/S and for the SBC6120/IOB6120...
and maybe someday something about software besides the paper tape
collection.

I'm loving the SVN backing store behind it, too.

    Vince
 



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 21 15:35:31 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:35:31 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl> from "Vincent
 Slyngstad" at Dec 21, 11 09:50:22 am
Message-ID: <m1RdTp2-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> From: Pete Turnbull; Wednesday, December 21, 2011 1:38 AM
> > Henk Gooijen wrote:
> >> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have those 
> >> packs :-)
> >> I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?
> > 
> > No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
> 
> I'm afraid my wife and I agree with Ethan that the color is more brown 
> than grey.  Maybe it's a European thing :-)?

Maybe it is. To me the handles on RL01 (and RK06) packs are distinctly 
brown (those on RL02s and RK07s are blue).

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 21 15:12:21 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 21:12:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <78FAB4A3-4AB8-4999-96D8-8222716F477D@gmail.com> from "Sander
 Reiche" at Dec 20, 11 10:17:03 pm
Message-ID: <m1RdTSe-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> Hi all, I'm new to the classic computing hobby, but I recently  
> purchased a DEC rack with exactly this thing it. Heavy stuff, but  
> mine's a lot less 'minty'. Not running on anything yet. Scared to turn  
> it on, to be honest. At least holding it off until I've cleaned it :)

IMHO, it;'s a very good idea not to just plug things inot the mains nsee 
what happens.

What I do is : 

1) Take ebverything apaart that it is reasonable to dismantle. Obviously 
I don;'t open up HDAs, But I would remvoe the logic board from the 
outside of a hard disk unit at htis point. Make lots of notes as to what 
oes where, and how everything is conencted.

2) A complete visual inspection. Look for damaged or burnt parts, odd 
screws, etc that are waitring to find somethign to short out, things like 
that. Check that any fuses are the correct rating, and are not wrapped in 
aluminium foil or similar (!). 

3) Cheack the mains earthing (preferebly at a fairly high test current) 
and, if you have an insulation tester, check the earth leakage. 

4) The bit I get flaemd for soemtimes. Connect a summy load to the PSU 
(car bulbs -- 6V and 12V -- are useful for this) and run the power supply 
on its onw. Check the output voltages, Check for excessinve ripple if you 
have a 'scope. 

5) Reassamble, power up, and see what needs fixing. At this point you may 
have genuine faults to find, but you won't have done any more daamge to 
the machine.

-tony


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 21 16:01:49 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 17:01:49 -0500 (EST)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <m1RdTSe-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RdTSe-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112212201.RAA22555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> 4) The bit I get flaemd for soemtimes.  Connect a summy load to the
> PSU (car bulbs -- 6V and 12V -- are useful for this) and run the
> power supply on its onw.  Check the output voltages, Check for
> excessinve ripple if you have a 'scope.

Now I'm curious.  Why would anyone flame you for doing, or suggesting,
that?  (I don't recall seeing such flamage on the list; perhaps I
missed it, or forgot....)

(One note.  I doubt tony needs to be told this, for two different
reasons, but it might not have occurred to others. If you don't have a
'scope handy, you can often get a decent idea of the amount of ripple
present by using an AC voltmeter in series with a moderately large
capaci-- um, condenser, for DC isolation.  If your meter is known to
correctly display just the AC component even in the presence of DC
bias, you don't even need the DC isolation....)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Wed Dec 21 16:52:54 2011
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:52:54 -0000
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
References: <m1RbJ21-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <013c01ccc03c$8ac79c50$84fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, December 15, 2011 9:39 PM
Subject: Re: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?

>
> Somewher I ahve a list of the UK channel numbers and their frequencies...
>

I presume you are talking about the old analogue signal ones - which aren't
broadcasting in my area anymore.

My (Bush) Freeview box that allows me to watch digital (freeview) channels
on my non-digital TV. (Aerial into back of box, scart lead from box into
back of scart socket on my TV). I can view the UHF frequency for each
channel by simply going to the "channel organiser" menu (it allows me to
switch the order in which the channels are listed). What I find quite weird
is that despite multiple channels being able to broadcast on the same UHF
frequency, it varies from 29 (ITV3, 5* and 5 USA) to 61 (BBC1 and BBC2).
Admittedly, I'm only getting "118 installed channels" (including radio
stations), but surely it could have organised it much better?

Even worse is that I have to re-tune on a regular basis (e.g. once a month)
to receive new channels (not so surprising), ones that have moved (what
the?!) or shut down completely (clearly not popular enough to make money for
the channel provider).


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk




From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Dec 21 19:01:19 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 01:01:19 +0000
Subject: DEC RK05 mounting rails needed
In-Reply-To: <7BEC37C3-B5D8-4A06-9576-50D70ED8AE3F@neurotica.com>
References: <001601ccbe77$96e334c0$c4a99e40$@tele2.at>
 <CANJYbi9wB1cJaA18D8=czGXBMFpkb-J1u6g1UKBz4zab6wvjxQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112201055050.29653@linuxserv.home>
 <CANJYbi8Ecm=SOuBQVg4Gd9=bGHeYzqr15=YYqCoxMw=bpXjduQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8MTtK8GQfjoPmk59KCVTEYM9aBnZe7_O=aoL2Ymch-mQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <2C05F490-4FF7-430A-B6B7-0C6515B7BC84@gmail.com>
 <26A29D65-7752-48F6-99B2-201D00C27E24@neurotica.com>
 <4EF1A911.9020909@dunnington.plus.com>
 <7BEC37C3-B5D8-4A06-9576-50D70ED8AE3F@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EF2815F.3010201@dunnington.plus.com>

Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Dec 21, 2011, at 4:38 AM, Pete Turnbull <pete at dunnington.plus.com> wrote:
>> The microPDP-11/23plus came in a BA23, usually the "storage heater" deskside style, but occasionally as a rackmount, which is the same box but without the skins.
>>
>> The PDP-11/23 and 11/23+ came in a BA11N or BA11S, and those don't have conventional rails.
> 
>   ...both very much PDP-11/23s, regardless of the sticker on the front. ;)

The biggest obvious difference is just the boot ROMs, 2K x 8 in the 
PDP-11/23 and 23+ but 8K x 8 in the microPDP-11/23plus, with additional 
diagnostics and stuff.  And they tended to have different peripherals, 
of course, but the CPU is essentially the same.

>   ...and I'm looking for one or two sets of the rear flanges, if anyone has spares.

I just made some out of sheet metal.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Wed Dec 21 19:01:17 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 01:01:17 +0000
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EF2815D.2010800@dunnington.plus.com>

Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/21/2011 04:38 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>> Henk Gooijen wrote:
>>
>>> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have
>>> those packs :-)
>>> I'd swear it is grey, not brown. Are my eyes really getting that bad?
>>
>> No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
> 
>   My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement about Cray J90 
> racks.  We'll both be standing in front of one, I'll say "this is 
> brown!" and she'll say "you're nuts, that's gray!"
> 
>   I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a few packs here; 
> they look distinctly brown to me.  I will ask my fiancee' what color she 
> thinks they are the next time an opportunity arises.
> 
>   Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?

Very probably.  Different people /do/ perceive many colours differently. 
  And FWIW I've had my colour vision tested quite thoroughly (for 
photographic processing reasons) and it's "normal" -- whatever that 
means ;-)

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 21 20:49:07 2011
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 18:49:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Tons of manual and literature from the 1960s+ in Irvine, CA
Message-ID: <1324522147.17901.YahooMailClassic@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Hundreds of computer manuals and literature from the 1960s mostly, the golden age of the minicomputer.
Most in excellent condition - many probably never opened.
Located in Irvine, CA (Orange County)

Includes Univac, HP, lots of minicomputer time-share.
No list of contents available - there's more literature than manuals.

See a few pictures here.

http://oldcomputers.net/temp/manuals1.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/manuals3.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/manuals4.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/manuals5.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/manuals6.jpg
http://oldcomputers.net/temp/manuals2.jpg

Last photo is misleading - only about 12 boxes contain this material.

Contact Chuck if interested:
Chuck.Hobbs at gmail.com




From evan at snarc.net  Wed Dec 21 21:00:08 2011
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:00:08 -0500
Subject: Tons of manual and literature from the 1960s+ in Irvine, CA
In-Reply-To: <1324522147.17901.YahooMailClassic@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1324522147.17901.YahooMailClassic@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4EF29D38.3020103@snarc.net>


> Hundreds of computer manuals and literature from the 1960s mostly, the golden age of the minicomputer.
> Most in excellent condition - many probably never opened.
> Located in Irvine, CA (Orange County)
>
> Includes Univac, HP, lots of minicomputer time-share.

Our museum here in NJ has a UNIVAC 1219. Dibs on the relevant UNIVAC 
manuals!

I emailed Chuck about it....


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 21:04:09 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:04:09 -0500
Subject: Tons of manual and literature from the 1960s+ in Irvine, CA
In-Reply-To: <1324522147.17901.YahooMailClassic@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1324522147.17901.YahooMailClassic@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dcRZg5QGYtv_fEsJaqqix9UaP9E4iyeF2haJ1o28uon_g@mail.gmail.com>

> Hundreds of computer manuals and literature from the 1960s mostly, the golden age of the minicomputer.
> Most in excellent condition - many probably never opened.

I call dibs for Al.

--
Will


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Wed Dec 21 21:17:01 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:17:01 -0500
Subject: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
In-Reply-To: <BLU159-W3058361627AC2E0A75301ECA50@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.3.1324490408.74418.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <BLU159-W3058361627AC2E0A75301ECA50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EF2A12D.2040905@verizon.net>

On 12/21/2011 01:31 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:53:12 -0500
>> From: "B. Degnan"<billdeg at degnanco.com>
>> To:<cctech at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
>>> On 12/19/2011 05:30 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
>>>> Does anybody have a Visual 1050 with hard drive setup?  I am looking
>>>> for any doc/pointers on how to get a hard drive configured under
>>>> CP/M for this system.
>>>>
>>> I do have two of them with HD, haven't powered it for a little while so
>>> memory is fuzzy.
>>>
>>> As I remember it used a different copy of the bios (boot disk) to configure
>>> as the bios had to be aware of the hard drive. I can look at docs but
>>> powering it up would take weeks to get to as other projects are in the
>>> forefront.
>>>
>> That's correct.  There is a special disk to set up the hard drive.   I think you
>> have to have this disk in drive A in order to read the hard drive, I don't think
>> one can simply boot a 1050 to harddrive.  I plan to work on this system over
>> the next few months, I will document the process on my site when I do.  I
>> also am knee-deep in projects at the moment.
>> Bill
> Thanks for the initial responses Allison and Bill.
>
> Here's a summary of what I have been able to cull together so far:
>
> (1) The Z80 BOOT PROM code (version 1.2 at least, which is the source listing
> I have) appears to probe the Winchester, for boot e.g.
>      - try to read Winchester
>      - check result
>      - if error, try floppy
>      - if OK, check Winchester label
>      - if bad label, try floppy
>      - if good label load system and boot??? (this part is unclear to me)
>
Looks at sector first sector on the drive is it has the next stage boot 
it loads that
or fails to floppy.

> (2) Not all of the v1050 CP/M BIOS versions appear to support the Winchester.
> Versions up to 1.1 do not appear to contain the WINCH.ASM module which I
> am assuming is required for support.  I do not have access to version 1.2, but
> I see this module showing up starting in version 1.3.
>
> I would assume that with the 1.2 BOOT PROM and the 1.4 CP/M BIOS I could
> support the Winchester (barring any bugginess - Bill I believe you have v2.0
> of the CP/M BIOS and not sure on the BOOT PROM).
>
> What isn't clear to me at this point is how to install CP/M onto the Winchester
> and get the label setup so that the PROM would boot directly from the hard drive

I have a deep set of docs for it and I'll look.  May take a bit.

Also winchester is a SASI to Adaptec or Xybec SASI/SCSI controller to 
MFM drive.

Supporting software includes formatter, partition tool and installer.
I forget if the installer was a variant of movcpm or sysgen.

I have full software for mine but I'd have to dig it out as well.


Allison






From ajp166 at verizon.net  Wed Dec 21 21:41:06 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 22:41:06 -0500
Subject: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
In-Reply-To: <BLU159-W3058361627AC2E0A75301ECA50@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.3.1324490408.74418.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <BLU159-W3058361627AC2E0A75301ECA50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <4EF2A6D2.2090504@verizon.net>

On 12/21/2011 01:31 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:53:12 -0500
>> From: "B. Degnan"<billdeg at degnanco.com>
>> To:<cctech at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
>>> On 12/19/2011 05:30 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
>>>> Does anybody have a Visual 1050 with hard drive setup?  I am looking
>>>> for any doc/pointers on how to get a hard drive configured under
>>>> CP/M for this system.
>>>>
>>> I do have two of them with HD, haven't powered it for a little while so
>>> memory is fuzzy.
>>>
>>> As I remember it used a different copy of the bios (boot disk) to configure
>>> as the bios had to be aware of the hard drive. I can look at docs but
>>> powering it up would take weeks to get to as other projects are in the
>>> forefront.
>>>
>> That's correct.  There is a special disk to set up the hard drive.   I think you
>> have to have this disk in drive A in order to read the hard drive, I don't think
>> one can simply boot a 1050 to harddrive.  I plan to work on this system over
>> the next few months, I will document the process on my site when I do.  I
>> also am knee-deep in projects at the moment.
>> Bill
> Thanks for the initial responses Allison and Bill.
>
> Here's a summary of what I have been able to cull together so far:
>
> (1) The Z80 BOOT PROM code (version 1.2 at least, which is the source listing
> I have) appears to probe the Winchester, for boot e.g.
>      - try to read Winchester
>      - check result
>      - if error, try floppy
>      - if OK, check Winchester label
>      - if bad label, try floppy
>      - if good label load system and boot??? (this part is unclear to me)
>
> (2) Not all of the v1050 CP/M BIOS versions appear to support the Winchester.
> Versions up to 1.1 do not appear to contain the WINCH.ASM module which I
> am assuming is required for support.  I do not have access to version 1.2, but
> I see this module showing up starting in version 1.3.
>
> I would assume that with the 1.2 BOOT PROM and the 1.4 CP/M BIOS I could
> support the Winchester (barring any bugginess - Bill I believe you have v2.0
> of the CP/M BIOS and not sure on the BOOT PROM).
>
> What isn't clear to me at this point is how to install CP/M onto the Winchester
> and get the label setup so that the PROM would boot directly from the hard drive.
>
>   		 	   		
>

Quick look, Xebec S1410 and a CMI 10mb disk.  The OS is CP/M+ not CP/M80.


Allison



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 22 00:31:28 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 01:31:28 -0500
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
Message-ID: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com>


   Hey folks.  Is there anyone here that'd be willing to pick up a DEC 
LA180 printer for me in Cambridge, MA, and sit on it for me for a little 
while?

               -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Wed Dec 21 06:12:10 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:12:10 +0100
Subject: Christmas cleanup!
Message-ID: <CACStewYbhJEVfEZ5RiFSm7o7RP0E0JOJt48VTQSEp7jrWMSoRQ@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Brian.

I just got on the list and I'm working backwards through the archives.
Couldn't reply on one of the existing ones. You did update the list,
so I'm guessing the vt220 and the 8" floppies actually are already
gone?

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From d_cymbal at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 21 12:31:33 2011
From: d_cymbal at hotmail.com (Damien Cymbal)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:31:33 -0500
Subject: Visual 1050 hard drive setup
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1324490408.74418.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1324490408.74418.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU159-W3058361627AC2E0A75301ECA50@phx.gbl>



> Date: Tue, 20 Dec 2011 14:53:12 -0500
> From: "B. Degnan" <billdeg at degnanco.com>
> To: <cctech at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Visual 1050 hard drive setup

> > On 12/19/2011 05:30 PM, Damien Cymbal wrote:
> > > Does anybody have a Visual 1050 with hard drive setup?  I am looking
> > > for any doc/pointers on how to get a hard drive configured under
> > > CP/M for this system.
> > >
> > I do have two of them with HD, haven't powered it for a little while so
> > memory is fuzzy.
> > 
> > As I remember it used a different copy of the bios (boot disk) to configure
> > as the bios had to be aware of the hard drive. I can look at docs but
> > powering it up would take weeks to get to as other projects are in the
> > forefront.
> > 
>
> That's correct.  There is a special disk to set up the hard drive.   I think you
> have to have this disk in drive A in order to read the hard drive, I don't think
> one can simply boot a 1050 to harddrive.  I plan to work on this system over
> the next few months, I will document the process on my site when I do.  I
> also am knee-deep in projects at the moment.
> Bill

Thanks for the initial responses Allison and Bill.

Here's a summary of what I have been able to cull together so far:

(1) The Z80 BOOT PROM code (version 1.2 at least, which is the source listing
I have) appears to probe the Winchester, for boot e.g.
    - try to read Winchester
    - check result
    - if error, try floppy
    - if OK, check Winchester label
    - if bad label, try floppy
    - if good label load system and boot??? (this part is unclear to me)

(2) Not all of the v1050 CP/M BIOS versions appear to support the Winchester.
Versions up to 1.1 do not appear to contain the WINCH.ASM module which I
am assuming is required for support.  I do not have access to version 1.2, but
I see this module showing up starting in version 1.3.

I would assume that with the 1.2 BOOT PROM and the 1.4 CP/M BIOS I could
support the Winchester (barring any bugginess - Bill I believe you have v2.0
of the CP/M BIOS and not sure on the BOOT PROM).

What isn't clear to me at this point is how to install CP/M onto the Winchester
and get the label setup so that the PROM would boot directly from the hard drive.

 		 	   		  

From tpresence at hotmail.com  Wed Dec 21 14:41:22 2011
From: tpresence at hotmail.com (The Presence)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 13:41:22 -0700
Subject: Christmas cleanup! [Updated]
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1324490408.74418.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1324490408.74418.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <BLU157-W44B2F984F52C3423916A4EA2A50@phx.gbl>


> From: Brian Wheeler <bdwheele at indiana.edu>
> Subject: Re: Christmas cleanup! [Updated]
> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
> Date: Wednesday, November 30, 2011, 8:46 AM
> I've updated the list below, and I've
> got a question for everyone.<snip>> > * DECserver 200/MC ($25, will ship)
> >    8 db25 portsDoes the DECserver 200/MC support DDCMP for system interconnects?  Im reasonably new to the DECnet Phase IV protocol, and was looking to do some learning.  If so, I'm interested.Kevin
 		 	   		  

From chrism3667 at yahoo.com  Wed Dec 21 16:34:11 2011
From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M)
Date: Wed, 21 Dec 2011 14:34:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HP color crt oscilloscopes
Message-ID: <1324506851.35691.YahooMailNeo@web164501.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

is anyone knowledgeable enough of their product line to give me (us) a rundown of these models, and characteristics (roughly) since their inception (1989 AFAIK).

I'm in the market for one, probably an older model, any condition, but not too shabby w/regards to sampling rate (let's say starting at 100mhz, they may not have gone any lower anyway).


From sellam at vintagetech.com  Thu Dec 22 02:43:26 2011
From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 00:43:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Seeking Dell 316LT laptop ($$$)
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.1112220042240.11509@vintagetech.com>


I am in need of a Dell 316LT laptop.  This would be from the late 1980s.  
Ideally it works.  If you've got one and you want to make a deal, please 
contact me directly.

Thanks!

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers   ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com  || at http://marketplace.vintage.org  ]


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Dec 22 04:08:39 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:08:39 +0100 (CET)
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112221102510.25430@linuxserv.home>

On Tue, 20 Dec 2011, Henk Gooijen wrote:
> From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Henk Gooijen <henk.gooijen at hotmail.com> 
>> wrote:
>>> PS. RL01 cartridges are not brown, but grey. RL02 are as you said blue.
>> 
>> I hate to disagree with you, but mine look just like the ones at the
>> bottom of this page...
>>
>>  http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html
>> 
>> In person (i.e., with better lighting), the accent parts are a dark,
>> chocolate brown.
>> 
> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have those 
> packs :-)
> I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?

The colour of the RL01 on that page is clearly dark brown in my opinion, 
the same colour as that of our RL01 packs.

Christian


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Dec 22 04:10:56 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:10:56 +0100 (CET)
Subject: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay
In-Reply-To: <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <BLU0-SMTP37563AD52843062522CE929B2A50@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112221100330.25430@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
>>> packs :-)
>>> I'd swear it is grey, not brown.  Are my eyes really getting that bad?
>> 
>> No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
>
> I'm afraid my wife and I agree with Ethan that the color is more brown than 
> grey.  Maybe it's a European thing :-)?

Our "European" RL01s are brown too (it's more a grey-brown like umber, not 
chocolate-brown).

Christian


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Thu Dec 22 04:24:37 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:24:37 +0100 (CET)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <013c01ccc03c$8ac79c50$84fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
References: <m1RbJ21-000J43C@p850ug1>
 <013c01ccc03c$8ac79c50$84fdf93e@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112221120000.25430@linuxserv.home>

On Wed, 21 Dec 2011, Andrew Burton wrote:
>> Somewher I ahve a list of the UK channel numbers and their frequencies...
>>
>
> I presume you are talking about the old analogue signal ones - which aren't
> broadcasting in my area anymore.

IMO the channels and their frequencies are the same, at least on the 
continent ;-)

> My (Bush) Freeview box that allows me to watch digital (freeview) channels
> on my non-digital TV. (Aerial into back of box, scart lead from box into

That's nothing but a simple DVB-T receiver, isn't it?

Christian


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Thu Dec 22 11:23:24 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:23:24 -0500
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>

On 12/22/2011 01:31 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
>   Hey folks.  Is there anyone here that'd be willing to pick up a DEC 
> LA180 printer for me in Cambridge, MA, and sit on it for me for a 
> little while?
>
>               -Dave
>
Nominally I'd be up for that save for I have absolutely no storage 
left.  I had to haul a few
BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.

I'm surprised I'm the only one up this way (eastern MA).


Allison




From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 11:46:40 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 09:46:40 -0800
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
Message-ID: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>

Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look "pretty"

http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205



From ploopster at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 11:47:18 2011
From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:47:18 -0500
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EF36D26.7070804@gmail.com>

allison wrote:
>> Hey folks. Is there anyone here that'd be willing to pick up a DEC
>> LA180 printer for me in Cambridge, MA, and sit on it for me for a
>> little while?
>>
> Nominally I'd be up for that save for I have absolutely no storage left.
> I had to haul a few
> BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.
>
> I'm surprised I'm the only one up this way (eastern MA).

If someone can get it to Poughkeepsie, NY, I'd be happy to store it.

Peace...  Sridhar


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 22 12:36:30 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:36:30 -0500
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <4EF36D26.7070804@gmail.com>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
 <4EF36D26.7070804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF378AE.1060905@neurotica.com>

On 12/22/2011 12:47 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
> allison wrote:
>>> Hey folks. Is there anyone here that'd be willing to pick up a DEC
>>> LA180 printer for me in Cambridge, MA, and sit on it for me for a
>>> little while?
>>>
>> Nominally I'd be up for that save for I have absolutely no storage left.
>> I had to haul a few
>> BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.
>>
>> I'm surprised I'm the only one up this way (eastern MA).
>
> If someone can get it to Poughkeepsie, NY, I'd be happy to store it.

   I think I've got this handled (Sridhar, it's by one of our friends up 
there).  Will confirm shortly.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Thu Dec 22 12:38:33 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:38:33 -0500
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EF37929.5050909@neurotica.com>

On 12/22/2011 12:23 PM, allison wrote:
> Nominally I'd be up for that save for I have absolutely no storage left.

   Perfectly understandable; thank you for the thought anyway.  I 
believe I have this handled now, as of just a moment ago.

> I had to haul a few
> BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.

   Oh goodness...I'd have driven up there to save those.

             -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 12:46:45 2011
From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 12:46:45 -0600
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EF37B15.2020101@gmail.com>

Al Kossow wrote:
> Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look "pretty"
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205

Interesting item; anyone have a reference to what the intact unit looked 
like? I don't think I've ever seen rotating platter-type storage with so 
many fixed heads (it seems like an evolutionary step between drum stores 
and modern drives).

Although... is it even computer-related? It just struck me that it might 
have had applications elsewhere (telecoms, TV etc.) rather than computing.

cheers

Jules



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 13:12:17 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:12:17 -0800
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF37B15.2020101@gmail.com>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org> <4EF37B15.2020101@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF38111.9090901@bitsavers.org>

On 12/22/11 10:46 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:
> Al Kossow wrote:
>> Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look "pretty"
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205
>
> Interesting item; anyone have a reference to what the intact unit looked like?

It is the disk for the Autonetics D-17B

you can the the bottom of it in

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Autonetics_D-17.JPG

they've cut every wire going to the 37 pin connectors.



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 13:19:11 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:19:11 -0800
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF38111.9090901@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org> <4EF37B15.2020101@gmail.com>
 <4EF38111.9090901@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EF382AF.1020703@bitsavers.org>

On 12/22/11 11:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> It is the disk for the Autonetics D-17B
>

my mistake, I dug out some D-17 pictures and it more heads than is shown.

the part number in the auction is 55300-304-31, the D-17 is 55380-304

It may be from a Recomp-II, will have to dig some more in the docs I have
since it is earlier than the D-17 based on part number



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 13:26:12 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 11:26:12 -0800
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF382AF.1020703@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org> <4EF37B15.2020101@gmail.com>
 <4EF38111.9090901@bitsavers.org> <4EF382AF.1020703@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EF38454.2030400@bitsavers.org>

On 12/22/11 11:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:

> It may be from a Recomp-II

sigh.. it is.

555-A-14_RECOMP_Theory_Of_Operation_May62.pdf page 6-47 matches the head layout in the picture

I'll upload the pictures to the recomp section on bitsavers.



From pontus at update.uu.se  Thu Dec 22 13:37:40 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 20:37:40 +0100
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EF38704.7090708@update.uu.se>

On 12/22/2011 06:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look "pretty"
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205
>

What disk is that? DF32 or some kind of RK?

/P


From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Thu Dec 22 14:04:21 2011
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:04:21 +0100
Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 100, Issue 51
Message-ID: <201112222005.pBMK5Y1d024400@billy.ezwind.net>

Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> (in reply to a message from  Fred Cisin) wrote:
>Steady on, old chap. Pop a few more dried frog pills and calm down.

Hah! Then I probably need some too ;-) Are those already on sale in the drugstore in Treacle Mine Road or do you still have to get them from the pharmaceutical institute of the Unseen University?
(Another appreciator of TP humor outs himself...)

>Joking aside, I have considered it. I honestly think a decent
>Win9x/NT-style DOS shell for Linux would help its adoption by Windows
> techies moving across. 

This is somewhat akin to the ideas I've been pushing around for some years now. I'm thinking that porting a familiar OS to some 'obscure' (to the average DOS/Wintel user) vintage architecture could serve to keep lots of these machines in active service with the general public. (But then there wouldn't be so many around for us to hoard - so that's perhaps why it isn't done...)
Of course there would be a need for software portability as well, so you might want to include some sort of cross assembler or how-you'd-call-it in the package that, llke, takes a win32-x86 executable and turns out a win32-sparc (or whatever) executable.  No idea if that's even remotely possible without excessive manual intervention...

> The main snag being that C21 Windows techies
>barely use the CLI at all and are not really skilled in it, whereas
>1990s or even 1980s MS techies probably know Unix already.

So don't contend yourself with just the CLI - you don't have to. There is an ongoing effort to create a  FOSS Windows 2k/XP workalike named ReactOS. Currently that is targeted at x86 only but I'm holding high hopes that its code base will inspire such portery. "Windows" for all those systems that pack the horsepower to run it, including but not limited to those that once were NT's target platforms - Alpha, RS/6k (Siemens RM400), PPC (PowerStack) and Clipper (Intergraph) springing to mind immediately.

>But I'd love a DOS shell for Linux, yes. If I had the skills, I'd try to do it. Partly for the convenience, partly for fun, partly for the sheer joy
>of outraging traditional old-time Unix-heads. :?)

Well put. Any of these on ist own would make enough of a reason methinks ;-) Add the conservation and ongoing practical utility of vintage hardware to that and let's see where it goes.

Arno Kletzander
...sent from my HTC Magician PDA



From Arno_1983 at gmx.de  Thu Dec 22 14:11:16 2011
From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:11:16 +0100
Subject: SOLUTION (Was: Unix handles file extensions "very poorly"? 
Message-ID: <20111222201116.72330@gmx.net>

[Resend with corrected Subject:]

Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> (in reply to a message from  Fred Cisin) wrote:
>Steady on, old chap. Pop a few more dried frog pills and calm down.

Hah! Then I probably need some too ;-) Are those already on sale in the drugstore in Treacle Mine Road or do you still have to get them from the pharmaceutical institute of the Unseen University?
(Another appreciator of TP humor outs himself...)

>Joking aside, I have considered it. I honestly think a decent
>Win9x/NT-style DOS shell for Linux would help its adoption by Windows
> techies moving across. 

This is somewhat akin to the ideas I've been pushing around for some years now. I'm thinking that porting a familiar OS to some 'obscure' (to the average DOS/Wintel user) vintage architecture could serve to keep lots of these machines in active service with the general public. (But then there wouldn't be so many around for us to hoard - so that's perhaps why it isn't done...)
Of course there would be a need for software portability as well, so you might want to include some sort of cross assembler or how-you'd-call-it in the package that, llke, takes a win32-x86 executable and turns out a win32-sparc (or whatever) executable.  No idea if that's even remotely possible without excessive manual intervention...

> The main snag being that C21 Windows techies
>barely use the CLI at all and are not really skilled in it, whereas
>1990s or even 1980s MS techies probably know Unix already.

So don't contend yourself with just the CLI - you don't have to. There is an ongoing effort to create a  FOSS Windows 2k/XP workalike named ReactOS. Currently that is targeted at x86 only but I'm holding high hopes that its code base will inspire such portery. "Windows" for all those systems that pack the horsepower to run it, including but not limited to those that once were NT's target platforms - Alpha, RS/6k (Siemens RM400), PPC (PowerStack) and Clipper (Intergraph) springing to mind immediately.

>But I'd love a DOS shell for Linux, yes. If I had the skills, I'd try to do it. Partly for the convenience, partly for fun, partly for the sheer joy
>of outraging traditional old-time Unix-heads. :?)

Well put. Any of these on ist own would make enough of a reason methinks ;-) Add the conservation and ongoing practical utility of vintage hardware to that and let's see where it goes.

Arno Kletzander
...sent from my HTC Magician PDA


-- 
NEU: FreePhone - 0ct/min Handyspartarif mit Geld-zur?ck-Garantie!		
Jetzt informieren: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freephone


From pontus at update.uu.se  Thu Dec 22 14:36:57 2011
From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:36:57 +0100
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <4EF37929.5050909@neurotica.com>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
 <4EF37929.5050909@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EF394E9.5060806@update.uu.se>

On 12/22/2011 07:38 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/22/2011 12:23 PM, allison wrote:
>> Nominally I'd be up for that save for I have absolutely no storage left.
>
>   Perfectly understandable; thank you for the thought anyway.  I 
> believe I have this handled now, as of just a moment ago.
>
>> I had to haul a few
>> BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.
>
>   Oh goodness...I'd have driven up there to save those.
>
>             -Dave
>

Poor BA123. If anyone in Sweden has a spare..

/P


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 22 13:31:05 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:31:05 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <201112212201.RAA22555@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 21, 11 05:01:49 pm
Message-ID: <m1RdoME-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> > 4) The bit I get flaemd for soemtimes.  Connect a summy load to the
> > PSU (car bulbs -- 6V and 12V -- are useful for this) and run the
> > power supply on its onw.  Check the output voltages, Check for
> > excessinve ripple if you have a 'scope.
> 
> Now I'm curious.  Why would anyone flame you for doing, or suggesting,
> that?  (I don't recall seeing such flamage on the list; perhaps I
> missed it, or forgot....)

There are some who just feel it's fun to flame, I guess (or at least 
that's the only exxplanation I can find...). But htere have been more 
serious reasons for not doing it :

It takes time (but not half as much time as rebuidlign a machine where 
the PSU has gone crazy!), you have to get some parts (the dummy load 
bulbs nd a multimeter, at least), and there's the possibility of damaging 
the machine by taking it apart (all I can say to that is that I've 
dismantled a couple of hundred classic computers in my time, and haven't 
don't permeanent damage to any of them).

Probably most fo the time it _is_ safe to just power up and see what 
happens, just as mosto f the itme you don't need dual-circuit brakes in a 
car, you don't need seat belts, you don't need a tension band or an 
implopsion screeen on a CRT, etc. It's the other times that you're glad 
of them.

And yes I have had PSUs that were faulty. Most recently was one of the 
cable PSUs in an HP11305 disk cotnroller, the 723 regualtor was defective 
and the output was sittign at about 12V. I don;t know what would have 
happened if tyhe crowbar had been connected (it's on a separate PCB, 
along with some of the logic), and I certainly wasn't goign to find out. 
Most likely it would have just been another burnt resisotr and a blown 
mains fuse. But it could have been worse...


> 
> (One note.  I doubt tony needs to be told this, for two different
> reasons, but it might not have occurred to others. If you don't have a

THe 2 reasons being (a) I haev a 'scope and (b) I know the trick anyway?

> 'scope handy, you can often get a decent idea of the amount of ripple
> present by using an AC voltmeter in series with a moderately large
> capaci-- um, condenser, for DC isolation.  If your meter is known to

Sure, I do that soemtimes, it's quite handy if you are working on a large 
machien and can't eaily get the 'scope to it. 

What you need is that the impedance of the capacitor at the mains 
frequency is small compared ot the input resistnace of the meter. Most 
DMMs are 10M Ohms (but soem are less o nthe AC ranges -- check the 
manual). Aanlogue meters are considerably lower. 

A 1uF capacitor should be fine for most cases. Even if you cna't get an 
accrate measure of the ripply, you cna at least see if it's higher than 
you might expect.

One advantage the 'scope has though, is that it lets yo see the ripple 
frequency. On linear PSUs, ripple at twice the mains frequency is likely 
to be dried-up smoothing capacitors (jsut about all PSUs have full-wave 
rectifiers). Ripple at the mains frequency often means a defective diode 
in the rectifier. 

For SMPUSs, ripple at twice mains frequency leads you to the smoothing 
capcitors o nthe mians side. Ripplye at the stiching frequency (10's of 
kHz), particulalt sharp spikes, leads you to the output capacitors.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Thu Dec 22 13:33:02 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:33:02 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: TV -> D-Sub converter possible?
In-Reply-To: <013c01ccc03c$8ac79c50$84fdf93e@user8459cef6fa> from "Andrew
 Burton" at Dec 21, 11 10:52:54 pm
Message-ID: <m1RdoO7-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> >
> > Somewher I ahve a list of the UK channel numbers and their frequencies...
> >
> 
> I presume you are talking about the old analogue signal ones - which aren't
> broadcasting in my area anymore.

Indeed I am. This discussion stared with the VHF/UHF modulators found in 
1980s home computers which not suprisingly output an analogue TV signal. 

-tony



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 22 15:40:12 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 13:40:12 -0800
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <4EF37929.5050909@neurotica.com>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com>
 <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net> <4EF37929.5050909@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <p0624082bcb195249810c@[192.168.1.199]>

At 1:38 PM -0500 12/22/11, Dave McGuire wrote:
>On 12/22/2011 12:23 PM, allison wrote:
>>I had to haul a few
>>BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.
>
>   Oh goodness...I'd have driven up there to save those.

Ouch, that hurts!  I'm not collecting any new hardware, and if I was 
in the area I would have as well. :-(

Zane




-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 22 15:57:46 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:57:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <m1RdoME-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RdoME-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112222157.QAA26404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> I doubt tony needs to be told this, for two different reasons, [...]
> THe 2 reasons being (a) I haev a 'scope and (b) I know the trick anyway?

Exactly!

>> [...] an AC voltmeter in series with a moderately large capaci-- um,
>> condenser, for DC isolation.  [...]
> What you need is that the impedance of the capacitor at the mains
> frequency is small compared ot the input resistnace of the meter.

Well, at the putative ripple frequency.  As you point out below, on a
SMPSU one of the possible ripple frequencies is the switching
frequency (and if that's not well above mains frequency you've got a
broken, or at least seriously weird, SMPSU...or something unusual for
mains power; ISTR something somewhere that had a mains power frequency
in the kHz, or at least hundreds of Hz....)

> A 1uF capacitor should be fine for most cases.  [...]  One advantage
> the 'scope has though, is that it lets yo see the ripple frequency.

Actually, if you don't have a 'scope, you can get _some_ idea of the
ripple spectrum by trying multiple different cap values, with known
resistors in parallel across your meter if it's particularly high
impedance (like the >10M tony mentioned).  You likely will have to do
some arithmetic, though.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From eivinde at terraplane.org  Thu Dec 22 16:05:16 2011
From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:05:16 +0100
Subject: Broken Amiga keyboard
Message-ID: <20111222220516.GA71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>

I have an Amiga keyboard (pcb says A3000) where the four
keys 1, q, a and z doesn't work. The rest of the keyboard
functions well.

This happened after a longer period where I didn't use the keyboard.

Does anybody have any ideas of things to check out to try
to get this working again?

Regards Eivind


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Thu Dec 22 16:11:38 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:11:38 -0500
Subject: pickup in the Boston area?
In-Reply-To: <p0624082bcb195249810c@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <4EF2CEC0.1020800@neurotica.com> <4EF3678C.8090202@verizon.net>
 <4EF37929.5050909@neurotica.com> <p0624082bcb195249810c@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4EF3AB1A.3080201@verizon.net>

On 12/22/2011 04:40 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> At 1:38 PM -0500 12/22/11, Dave McGuire wrote:
>> On 12/22/2011 12:23 PM, allison wrote:
>>> I had to haul a few
>>> BA23 and BA123s I'd had for spares to the dump I needed space so bad.
>>
>>   Oh goodness...I'd have driven up there to save those.
>
> Ouch, that hurts!  I'm not collecting any new hardware, and if I was 
> in the area I would have as well. :-(
>
> Zane
>

It was posted here twice over the course of two years and like I said 
crickets.

I didn't want to dump it but the next place to store it was the shed and 
mice
would have made that home fast.


Allison



>
>
>



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 16:21:43 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 14:21:43 -0800
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
Message-ID: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>

the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 16:34:48 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:34:48 -0500
Subject: Broken Amiga keyboard
In-Reply-To: <20111222220516.GA71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
References: <20111222220516.GA71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
Message-ID: <A9FAA608-4F6F-40E2-9908-99EE6B684BCA@gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Eivind Evensen wrote:

> I have an Amiga keyboard (pcb says A3000) where the four
> keys 1, q, a and z doesn't work. The rest of the keyboard
> functions well.
> 
> This happened after a longer period where I didn't use the keyboard.
> 
> Does anybody have any ideas of things to check out to try
> to get this working again?

Could be one of the outgoing or incoming matrix lines being broken.  Try seeing if you can ohm them out.  You should be able to determine which line is a likely candidate by checking which one goes to those keys (they're all in a column, so it should be relatively obvious looking at the PCB).

I've not seen the internals of that keyboard, but most keyboards I've seen have an internal ribbon cable connecting the matrix PCB to a separate controller PCB; you might do well to try (carefully) reseating that cable, as long-term exposure to humidity can corrode the contacts, making them more resistive.

- Dave






From spedraja at ono.com  Thu Dec 22 16:44:21 2011
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:44:21 +0100
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF_tBzCFQWHxaoHu-QR_U3=x2MhGsPg717eo5Zst1X8kAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Great news.

SPc

2011/12/22 Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>

> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/**UniversityOfMichigan/mts/<http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/>
>
>


From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 17:10:42 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 18:10:42 -0500
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF38704.7090708@update.uu.se>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
	<4EF38704.7090708@update.uu.se>
Message-ID: <CAALmimk6r3J3gPc03zU=wu+ayKZVfZKSg6ox-SLmm1az8ayb6g@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
> On 12/22/2011 06:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>
>> Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look "pretty"
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205
>>
>
> What disk is that? DF32 or some kind of RK?

Neither.  Others here have been discussing that it's a Recomp disk (a
system I know nothing about).  A DEC DF32 would have many fewer heads
and a very thick (6mm?  8mm?) platter.  AFAIK, all RK disks have a
linear positioner.

-ethan


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 18:17:18 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:17:18 -0500
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGV7W66M0Uz_caEG5WieuaJAq2FPnMdpJzSRarTAL7=dKg@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/
>

Outstanding! I cut my teeth on MTS at Wayne State University in Detroit,
they were still chugging away on an old Amdahl for Email and SPSS. I
believe it was the last running mainframe implementation of SPSS, until
SPSS cranked up the licensing fee so much the university relented and
bought a (more expensive) site-license for Windows.

Time to fire up Hercules!


From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 18:27:59 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:27:59 -0800
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
Message-ID: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>

J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the past ten years.
The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement between CHM and HP.
A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time to organize it.
There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading later tonight.

http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection



From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec 22 18:36:45 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:36:45 -0800
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <CAALmimk6r3J3gPc03zU=wu+ayKZVfZKSg6ox-SLmm1az8ayb6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org> <4EF38704.7090708@update.uu.se>
 <CAALmimk6r3J3gPc03zU=wu+ayKZVfZKSg6ox-SLmm1az8ayb6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <89123D85-D660-4FCE-863A-C56EA3734C84@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 22, at 3:10 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
>> On 12/22/2011 06:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>>
>>> Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look  
>>> "pretty"
>>>
>>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205
>>>
>>
>> What disk is that? DF32 or some kind of RK?
>
> Neither.  Others here have been discussing that it's a Recomp disk (a
> system I know nothing about).  A DEC DF32 would have many fewer heads
> and a very thick (6mm?  8mm?) platter.  AFAIK, all RK disks have a
> linear positioner.


I didn't know anything about the Recomp-II before either. There is a  
brochure in the bitsavers directory:
   http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/recomp/
that presents an overview of the machine, and the pics directory has  
some great photos showing the internals.

Desk size, solid-state, disk-based-memory, targetted at engineering- 
type problems. In a class kind of like the vacuum-tube, drum-memory  
Bendix G15, I'd say.

I wonder how much design influence the Recomp-II may have had on the  
Minuteman GC (D-17B), looks like there could have been some  
continuance there.


From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca  Thu Dec 22 18:42:47 2011
From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:42:47 -0800
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGV7W66M0Uz_caEG5WieuaJAq2FPnMdpJzSRarTAL7=dKg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
 <CAHG8iGV7W66M0Uz_caEG5WieuaJAq2FPnMdpJzSRarTAL7=dKg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <519CB122-59C2-40EE-B544-2081556F8AE2@cs.ubc.ca>

On 2011 Dec 22, at 4:17 PM, Jason McBrien wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 5:21 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
>
>> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
>> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/
>>
> Outstanding! I cut my teeth on MTS at Wayne State University in  
> Detroit,
> they were still chugging away on an old Amdahl for Email and SPSS. I
> believe it was the last running mainframe implementation of SPSS,  
> until
> SPSS cranked up the licensing fee so much the university relented and
> bought a (more expensive) site-license for Windows.

Indeed; Wow! MTS was the big campus timesharing system from the 70's  
to 90's at UBC.

Never expected to see it available like this.


> Time to fire up Hercules!



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 18:47:40 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 16:47:40 -0800
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EF3CFAC.601@bitsavers.org>

On 12/22/11 2:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/
>

I fixed the line wrap on the readme and copyright files, and noticed the
path was specifed, so I had to move it to
http://bitsavers.org/bits/univOfMichigan/mts/



From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Thu Dec 22 19:00:26 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:00:26 -0800
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <4EF3D2AA.3000902@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/22/2011 2:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/
>
>

Very cool!  I have a set of MTS-related manuals from 1979, would they be 
of any interest to you for archival purposes, assuming you don't already 
have copies?

(They are:  "Digital Computing, FORTRAN IV, WATFIV, and MTS (with *FTN 
and *WATFIV)"  Parts 1 & 2 by Brice Carnahan and James O. Wilkes.)

- Josh


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 19:15:12 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 17:15:12 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, ST Taylor_Charter <sttaylor at charter.net> wrote:
> Glen,
>
> Looks like nobody has a copy of the Original Document they can spare.
> So, would you please scan to PDF both the Users Manual and the Retrofit Kit
> Manual
>

Grab copies of the scans here while these links are still good.  Feel
free to host on bitsavers if there aren't any better quality copies
available.


SC/MP Kit Users Manual
Publication Number 4200113A
March 1976

4200113A.pdf, 12MB
https://docs.google.com/open?id=1xTw49h3kxcZoyOSNqlTXeliexaauo6wuyuUtwko7jlQmhZPu7JStJuhNjeXR


SC/MP-II Microprocessor Retrofit Kit Users Manual
Publication Number 420305365-001A
January 1997

420305365-001A.pdf, 14MB
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8Vwo-hnhVM5NjRlMzJkYzMtNGUxNi00NDM2LWE5MmItNmFmMGNiYjg0ZThm


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 20:18:06 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 20:18:06 -0600
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs22P-59UUC4PeGW=d0xEdVt=00J1kDQW8FV175-rYqkMZw@mail.gmail.com>

amazing

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:

> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the
> past ten years.
> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement
> between CHM and HP.
> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time
> to organize it.
> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading
> later tonight.
>
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/**HP_1000_software_collection<http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection>
>
>


From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 20:33:54 2011
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:33:54 -0500
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs22P-59UUC4PeGW=d0xEdVt=00J1kDQW8FV175-rYqkMZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA3rs22P-59UUC4PeGW=d0xEdVt=00J1kDQW8FV175-rYqkMZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrU1OkTUjNiTHmJZBWr9LE=ETU6c2rAWR0zfV+AKNPAn5g@mail.gmail.com>

Wow. This and MTS on the same day? It's like Christmas but a few days early!

Mike


From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 20:45:36 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:45:36 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
Message-ID: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>

I have a 712/60 in fine working condition, but the top case is darn near
splitting in half.  If anyone happens to have a spare case in good shape,
I'd love to replace the cover on mine.  Secondary to that, I also wouldn't
mind upgrading the memory to something bigger than the 32 MB that's in it
now.  I'm in Indianapolis, IN.

Thanks!
James



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 21:07:46 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 01:07:46 -0200
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>

>I have a 712/60 in fine working condition, but the top case is darn near
> splitting in half.  If anyone happens to have a spare case in good shape,
> I'd love to replace the cover on mine.  Secondary to that, I also wouldn't
> mind upgrading the memory to something bigger than the 32 MB that's in it
> now.  I'm in Indianapolis, IN.

    James, AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory, I just don't 
know if EDO or FPM. I can test some in mine if you feel like. Mine is topped 
with 192 (?) MB. 



From chris at mainecoon.com  Thu Dec 22 21:11:48 2011
From: chris at mainecoon.com (Christian Kennedy)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:11:48 -0800
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <CAHfSdrU1OkTUjNiTHmJZBWr9LE=ETU6c2rAWR0zfV+AKNPAn5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
 <CAA3rs22P-59UUC4PeGW=d0xEdVt=00J1kDQW8FV175-rYqkMZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHfSdrU1OkTUjNiTHmJZBWr9LE=ETU6c2rAWR0zfV+AKNPAn5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AD3DC198-9D3A-41F0-A9E4-D020FF74B785@mainecoon.com>


On 22 Dec 2011, at 6:33 PM, Michael Kerpan wrote:

> Wow. This and MTS on the same day? It's like Christmas but a few days early!

You're not wrong about that.  Seriously amazing work by all involved.

--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com               AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com        PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685  6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97
"Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..."






From IanK at vulcan.com  Thu Dec 22 21:25:23 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:25:23 +0000
Subject: Tons of manual and literature from the 1960s+ in Irvine, CA
In-Reply-To: <CANij+dcRZg5QGYtv_fEsJaqqix9UaP9E4iyeF2haJ1o28uon_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB193484.A462%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/21/11 7:04 PM, "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:

>> Hundreds of computer manuals and literature from the 1960s mostly, the
>>golden age of the minicomputer.
>> Most in excellent condition - many probably never opened.
>
>I call dibs for Al.
>
>--
>Will

Seconded.  -- Ian 




From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 21:43:27 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:43:27 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
Message-ID: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>

I have a DEC VXT 2000 that I would like to try out, but I don't have the
software to host for it to load up the X environment across the network.
Anyone know where I might still obtain the bits?  Looks like the last
version *may* have been v2.1g?

Thanks!
James



From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 21:49:36 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:49:36 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>

> >I have a 712/60 in fine working condition, but the top case is darn
> >near  splitting in half.  If anyone happens to have a spare case in
> >good shape,  I'd love to replace the cover on mine.  Secondary to that,
> >I also wouldn't  mind upgrading the memory to something bigger than the
> >32 MB that's in it  now.  I'm in Indianapolis, IN.
> 
>     James, AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory, I just don't
> know if EDO or FPM. I can test some in mine if you feel like. Mine is
topped
> with 192 (?) MB.

Interesting - I guess I just assumed it was a special config.  I'm pretty
sure I have some 72-pins lying around here that I can try out.  A quick
search says it needs ECC, so hopefully I have some of those...

Thanks



From aek at bitsavers.org  Thu Dec 22 21:50:15 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:50:15 -0800
Subject: Tons of manual and literature from the 1960s+ in Irvine, CA
In-Reply-To: <CB193484.A462%iank@vulcan.com>
References: <CB193484.A462%iank@vulcan.com>
Message-ID: <4EF3FA77.10603@bitsavers.org>

On 12/22/11 7:25 PM, Ian King wrote:
> On 12/21/11 7:04 PM, "William Donzelli"<wdonzelli at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>>> Hundreds of computer manuals and literature from the 1960s mostly, the
>>> golden age of the minicomputer.
>>> Most in excellent condition - many probably never opened.
>>
>> I call dibs for Al.
>>
>> --
>> Will
>
> Seconded.  -- Ian
>

Well hopefully we can get the logistics worked out. Jim and John are in Orange
County and are willing to shuttle the stuff up here.



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 21:55:04 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 19:55:04 -0800
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>

I also have a VXT 2000+. I think I got the software images for it here as a
CD-ROM image in the InfoServer software:

ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver/freeware_readme.txt
ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver/infoserver.zip

VTX Software V2.1 InfoServer/VMS ag-pjjhh-be.img


From evan at snarc.net  Thu Dec 22 21:58:14 2011
From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 22:58:14 -0500
Subject: Tons of manual and literature from the 1960s+ in Irvine, CA
In-Reply-To: <4EF29D38.3020103@snarc.net>
References: <1324522147.17901.YahooMailClassic@web110605.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
 <4EF29D38.3020103@snarc.net>
Message-ID: <4EF3FC56.9000609@snarc.net>


>
>> Hundreds of computer manuals and literature from the 1960s mostly, 
>> the golden age of the minicomputer.
>> Most in excellent condition - many probably never opened.
>> Located in Irvine, CA (Orange County)
>>
>> Includes Univac, HP, lots of minicomputer time-share.
>
> Our museum here in NJ has a UNIVAC 1219. Dibs on the relevant UNIVAC 
> manuals!


< conscience clearing > I don't know if anybody was wondering, but just 
in case: Please know that I checked Bitsavers * before * posting about 
the 1219 documents. It already has the documents in question. I wouldn't 
want to prevent it from getting anything important. I wholly support 
Al's mission. < / conscience clearing >

Thank you.  :)


From rickb at bensene.com  Thu Dec 22 22:02:03 2011
From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 20:02:03 -0800
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E66@mail.bensene.com>



> 
> Someone did an impressive job of destroying this to make it look
> "pretty"
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/300640339205



Absolutely disgusting.  I wonder what became of the rest of it.  So sad.

Rick



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 22:15:09 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:15:09 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2011, at 10:49 PM, James wrote:

> Interesting - I guess I just assumed it was a special config.  I'm pretty
> sure I have some 72-pins lying around here that I can try out.  A quick
> search says it needs ECC, so hopefully I have some of those...

72-pin SIMMs of all sizes (both FPM and EDO) seem to be going dirt cheap on Ebay these days; apparently someone has found some value in the vintage computer maintenance market and started manufacturing them.  I can get 128 MB SIMMs of both types for $20 (128MB is as large as a 72-pin SIMM can get, and not widely supported; I'm assuming the 9000 only does up to 32 MB per SIMM, which is a common limit).

- Dave


From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 22:17:13 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:17:13 -0500
Subject: Recomp disk assembly
In-Reply-To: <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E66@mail.bensene.com>
References: <4EF36D00.9040700@bitsavers.org>
 <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D3E66@mail.bensene.com>
Message-ID: <E14844CC-9EC9-4A83-BDB6-534FE9B7B41D@gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2011, at 11:02 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:

> Absolutely disgusting.  I wonder what became of the rest of it.  So sad.

And it doesn't look nearly as good as the mosaic I made with fragments of those Ming vases and cuneiform tablets I used for target practice.

- Dave




From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 22:21:13 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:21:13 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <006101ccc12a$4f3f2fb0$edbd8f10$@slor.net>

Well shoot - tried every matched pair of 72-pin SIMMs I have and no dice.
Looks like the 712 takes FPM ECC.  Must be none of my spare are that.

James

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza - Listas
> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2011 10:08 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
> 
> >I have a 712/60 in fine working condition, but the top case is darn
> >near  splitting in half.  If anyone happens to have a spare case in
> >good shape,  I'd love to replace the cover on mine.  Secondary to that,
> >I also wouldn't  mind upgrading the memory to something bigger than the
> >32 MB that's in it  now.  I'm in Indianapolis, IN.
> 
>     James, AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory, I just don't
> know if EDO or FPM. I can test some in mine if you feel like. Mine is
topped
> with 192 (?) MB.



From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 22:23:32 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:23:32 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006201ccc12a$a2278d30$e676a790$@slor.net>

> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver/freeware_readme.txt
> ftp://ftp.hp.com/pub/openvms/freeware/infoserver/infoserver.zip
> 
> VTX Software V2.1 InfoServer/VMS ag-pjjhh-be.img

Awesome - thanks Glen!  Will give it a shot.

James



From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 22:32:32 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:32:32 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>

> 72-pin SIMMs of all sizes (both FPM and EDO) seem to be going dirt cheap
on
> Ebay these days; apparently someone has found some value in the vintage
> computer maintenance market and started manufacturing them.  I can get
> 128 MB SIMMs of both types for $20 (128MB is as large as a 72-pin SIMM can
> get, and not widely supported; I'm assuming the 9000 only does up to 32 MB
> per SIMM, which is a common limit).
> 

>From what I've read, that looks correct.  The 712/60, at least, has 4 slots
and is listed with a max of 128 MB.  Guess I'll be hitting the Bay and doing
my best to get compatible SIMMs.





From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 22:41:15 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:41:15 -0200
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <005501ccc12d$77833b80$6400a8c0@tababook>

> From what I've read, that looks correct.  The 712/60, at least, has 4 
> slots
> and is listed with a max of 128 MB.  Guess I'll be hitting the Bay and 
> doing
> my best to get compatible SIMMs.

    For the price of the SIMMs, better get another 712/100 with 6 memory 
slots ;o) 



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 22:46:34 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 20:46:34 -0800
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKSAASr=aE9P00fkAf47K0is3AxjVooZO3kcLLGX3pGFQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2011 8:38 PM, "James" <james at slor.net> wrote:
>
> From what I've read, that looks correct.  The 712/60, at least, has 4
slots
> and is listed with a max of 128 MB.  Guess I'll be hitting the Bay and
doing
> my best to get compatible SIMMs.
>

The 712/60 and /80 have basically the same 4 slot motherboard with 128MB
max. The 712/100 motherboard has 6 slots for 192MB max. I have one or more
of each. A couple have the 16505A badge.

-Glen


From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 22:57:03 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:57:03 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <005501ccc12d$77833b80$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
 <005501ccc12d$77833b80$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <007501ccc12f$510a6080$f31f2180$@slor.net>

>     For the price of the SIMMs, better get another 712/100 with 6 memory
> slots ;o)

Heh - if someone wants to send me one cheap, I'm game. :)
Just ordered 4 32MB FPM Parity modules from eBay, so hopefully the /60 will
be maxed out soon...




From james at slor.net  Thu Dec 22 22:59:28 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 23:59:28 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKSAASr=aE9P00fkAf47K0is3AxjVooZO3kcLLGX3pGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKSAASr=aE9P00fkAf47K0is3AxjVooZO3kcLLGX3pGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <007601ccc12f$a74cbe70$f5e63b50$@slor.net>

> The 712/60 and /80 have basically the same 4 slot motherboard with 128MB
> max. The 712/100 motherboard has 6 slots for 192MB max. I have one or
> more of each. A couple have the 16505A badge.
> 

How many of yours have broken rear tabs or massive cracks in the cases?  Or
is that just me...




From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 23:01:02 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 00:01:02 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <3AC17C16-B380-4811-8FC6-F6EDBDA8E563@gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2011, at 11:32 PM, James wrote:

> From what I've read, that looks correct.  The 712/60, at least, has 4 slots
> and is listed with a max of 128 MB.  Guess I'll be hitting the Bay and doing
> my best to get compatible SIMMs.

Auction 350478815109 should do the trick; if 10 is to many (but for $4 each, who really cares?), there's 300621930749 ($5 each in pairs).

To the best of my knowledge, "parity" and "ECC" SIMMS should be the same, since it's really just an extra 4 bits (and ECC is really a parity scheme when you come down to it).  The memory controller should be doing the heavy lifting, the SIMM is just storage.  Someone should definitely correct me if I'm wrong.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the parity/ECC modules should work fine in standard motherboards which will just ignore the extra 4 bits.  I've not tried it, so I certainly wouldn't vouch for it, but if you wind up with extra SIMMs, it might be a worthy experiment.



- Dave




From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 23:16:09 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:16:09 -0200
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKSAASr=aE9P00fkAf47K0is3AxjVooZO3kcLLGX3pGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601ccc12f$a74cbe70$f5e63b50$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <007701ccc132$21187bc0$6400a8c0@tababook>


    Mine has just the cover, no tabs, security lock, whatsoever :) It
already came this way, and doesn't affect me since I always use it closed,
with a monitor on top.

    http://tabalabs.com.br/eletronica/16505/index.htm

    (I had a nerdy photo here, but I dunno where it is)
    Ah, here :D
    http://www.tabajara-labs.blogspot.com/2011/10/hp16500c-hp16505a-e-oitocentesimo-post.html

---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James" <james at slor.net>
To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 2:59 AM
Subject: RE: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60


>> The 712/60 and /80 have basically the same 4 slot motherboard with 128MB
>> max. The 712/100 motherboard has 6 slots for 192MB max. I have one or
>> more of each. A couple have the 16505A badge.
>>
>
> How many of yours have broken rear tabs or massive cracks in the cases?
> Or
> is that just me...
>
>



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 23:20:38 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Thu, 22 Dec 2011 21:20:38 -0800
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <007601ccc12f$a74cbe70$f5e63b50$@slor.net>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKSAASr=aE9P00fkAf47K0is3AxjVooZO3kcLLGX3pGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601ccc12f$a74cbe70$f5e63b50$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwLN2-e_WvySXc-QfcGp0V0gqd-cwHX3Jr=TJZQ5bpWrWw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 22, 2011 9:11 PM, "James" <james at slor.net> wrote:
>
> How many of yours have broken rear tabs or massive cracks in the cases?
 Or
> is that just me...
>

Most have at least one broken rear tab. Some are missing the floppy cutout
cover, or the cover is there but won't stay in place. No cracked tops
though.

I think these were designed for low cost and aren't as robust as other HP
systems of similar vintage.


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Thu Dec 22 23:34:40 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 03:34:40 -0200
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <005d01ccc125$e47c64d0$ad752e70$@slor.net>
 <3A858FB4-C825-4F77-8FC4-90F4E0D4C8E7@gmail.com>
 <006401ccc12b$e3aea5d0$ab0bf170$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKSAASr=aE9P00fkAf47K0is3AxjVooZO3kcLLGX3pGFQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <007601ccc12f$a74cbe70$f5e63b50$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwLN2-e_WvySXc-QfcGp0V0gqd-cwHX3Jr=TJZQ5bpWrWw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <009301ccc134$969d4090$6400a8c0@tababook>

> Most have at least one broken rear tab. Some are missing the floppy cutout
> cover, or the cover is there but won't stay in place. No cracked tops
> though.
> I think these were designed for low cost and aren't as robust as other HP
> systems of similar vintage.

    For me it seems as sturdy as anything HP (older) I have. BUT it is made 
of plastic, and plastic breaks...Old plastic breaks easier... :o)

    I do love my 712 :D So bad mine isn't the 100MHz model, but I can live 
with that :D

    Now, If I could learn to use the inverse assembler... :oP 



From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at  Fri Dec 23 02:41:57 2011
From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:41:57 +0100
Subject: 17. Michigan Timesharing System (Al Kossow)
Message-ID: <96638997F110484BA26D822CC4BBF658@mars>

Hi Al,
 
please can you check the link, because it doesnt work out here. Thanks.
 
With best regards
 
Gerhard


From pontus at Update.UU.SE  Fri Dec 23 03:04:49 2011
From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:04:49 +0100
Subject: 17. Michigan Timesharing System (Al Kossow)
In-Reply-To: <96638997F110484BA26D822CC4BBF658@mars>
References: <96638997F110484BA26D822CC4BBF658@mars>
Message-ID: <20111223090449.GA7440@Update.UU.SE>

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 09:41:57AM +0100, Gerhard Kreuzer wrote:
> Hi Al,
>  
> please can you check the link, because it doesnt work out here. Thanks.
>  
> With best regards
>  
> Gerhard


He moved them:

> On 12/22/11 2:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
>> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/ 

> I fixed the line wrap on the readme and copyright files, and noticed 
> the path was specifed, so I had to move it to 
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/univOfMichigan/mts/


/P


From eivinde at terraplane.org  Fri Dec 23 03:34:48 2011
From: eivinde at terraplane.org (Eivind Evensen)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:34:48 +0100
Subject: Broken Amiga keyboard
In-Reply-To: <A9FAA608-4F6F-40E2-9908-99EE6B684BCA@gmail.com>
References: <20111222220516.GA71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
 <A9FAA608-4F6F-40E2-9908-99EE6B684BCA@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111223093448.GB71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>

On Thu, Dec 22, 2011 at 05:34:48PM -0500, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 22, 2011, at 5:05 PM, Eivind Evensen wrote:
> 
> > I have an Amiga keyboard (pcb says A3000) where the four
> > keys 1, q, a and z doesn't work. The rest of the keyboard
> > functions well.
> > 
> > This happened after a longer period where I didn't use the keyboard.
> > 
> > Does anybody have any ideas of things to check out to try
> > to get this working again?
> 
> Could be one of the outgoing or incoming matrix lines being broken.  Try
> seeing if you can ohm them out.  You should be able to determine which line
> is a likely candidate by checking which one goes to those keys (they're all
> in a column, so it should be relatively obvious looking at the PCB).
> 
> I've not seen the internals of that keyboard, but most keyboards I've seen
> have an internal ribbon cable connecting the matrix PCB to a separate
> controller PCB; you might do well to try (carefully) reseating that cable, as
> long-term exposure to humidity can corrode the contacts, making them more
> resistive.

Thanks for tips. I'll report back for the archives if I get it working.

Regards Eivind


From spedraja at ono.com  Fri Dec 23 03:51:29 2011
From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:51:29 +0100
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <CACytpF8O9ziAm1D=q-d32uBvFeLuGBW-C+hmhTQ4oYf+6CDjdQ@mail.gmail.com>

*Wew*

Santa exists at last :-)

SPc.

2011/12/23 Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org>

> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the
> past ten years.
> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement
> between CHM and HP.
> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time
> to organize it.
> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading
> later tonight.
>
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/**HP_1000_software_collection<http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection>
>
>


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Dec 23 04:29:42 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 11:29:42 +0100 (CET)
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112231118350.14422@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011, Al Kossow wrote:
> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over 
> the past ten years. The software is available for non-commercial use 
> under an agreement between CHM and HP. A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for 
> doing this, since I haven't had the time to organize it. There are over 
> 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading later tonight.
>
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection

Outstanding! That makes HP2100/HP1000 probably more interesting than 
e.g. PDP11, at least from the SW point of view.

Christian


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Dec 23 04:32:16 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 02:32:16 -0800
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <CACytpF8O9ziAm1D=q-d32uBvFeLuGBW-C+hmhTQ4oYf+6CDjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
 <CACytpF8O9ziAm1D=q-d32uBvFeLuGBW-C+hmhTQ4oYf+6CDjdQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF458B0.4060902@jwsss.com>

I bought the boards consisting of the HP-1000 WCS and memory protect 
recently.  I hope there is more info on those boards in that data.

It looks like there was a fortran package that allowed one to load 
writable control store to boost the math performance from what I read.

I'm a sucker for WCS anyway, so hopefully these will somehow fit in the 
1000 that I have.

Jim

On 12/23/2011 1:51 AM, SPC wrote:
> *Wew*
>
> Santa exists at last :-)
>
> SPc.
>
> 2011/12/23 Al Kossow<aek at bitsavers.org>
>
>> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the
>> past ten years.
>> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement
>> between CHM and HP.
>> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time
>> to organize it.
>> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading
>> later tonight.
>>
>> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/**HP_1000_software_collection<http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection>
>>
>>
>


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Dec 23 05:35:58 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:35:58 +0100 (CET)
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112231234110.19080@linuxserv.home>

On Thu, 22 Dec 2011, Al Kossow wrote:
> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/

That's great!
Is there anywhere a list of supported hardware? I'm not very comfortable 
with the idea of simulator-only software.  I'd be interested to try it 
some day on our 4331.

Christian


From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 07:22:18 2011
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:22:18 -0000
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay


> On 12/21/2011 04:38 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> > Henk Gooijen wrote:
> >
> >> That page is from my website, I took those pictures and still have
> >> those packs :-)
> >> I'd swear it is grey, not brown. Are my eyes really getting that bad?
> >
> > No, I agree, those labels are grey (same as mine)!
>
>    My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement about Cray J90
> racks.  We'll both be standing in front of one, I'll say "this is
> brown!" and she'll say "you're nuts, that's gray!"
>
>    I've used RL01s for most of my life, I have quite a few packs here;
> they look distinctly brown to me.  I will ask my fiancee' what color she
> thinks they are the next time an opportunity arises.
>
>    Is there some difference in visual perception going on here?
>
>               -Dave
>

Going OT, but there have been studies about colour. For example, IIRC, blue
causes us to wake up and/or stay awake. So if you are out at a
restaurant/club at night and it's lit in blue, don't be surprised if you
feel wide awake and very energetic.
On the other hand red (or was it purple?) causes us to perceive a period of
time to be quicker than it is (up to 1/3 quicker).

It is my personal belief that whilst we all know about the rods and cones in
our eyes,
that we each have a variation in the number of each. Thus what I see as red,
may be
interpreted by someone else as a slightly darker red.
Along those lines there has been atleast one study, where a computer screen
displayed something like 12 cubes all in a circle (like the face of a
clock). 11 of the squares were the same colour and one was a different
colour. They then surveyed lots of people (including one remote tribe) and
the results were interesting.
For example on one occasion the 11 squares were green and the different
coloured one was blue. However, alot of the tribesmen (and women) struggled
to tell the difference. The theory was that if you have never been exposed
to a particular colour before (or not very often), then the brain would
never learn to recognise and/or interpret it.

Plus, regardless of the cones/rods idea, the data from our eyes may be
interpreted slightly differently by our brains.

FYI, I know all this because I watched a documentary (Horizon on the BBC?)
about it around half a year ago.


On a slightly relevant note, consider 2 colour photocopiers. If you
photocopy the same colour image on both, do both copiers give exactly the
same output colourwise?


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk




From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 07:57:32 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:57:32 +0000
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
In-Reply-To: <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <CALfYgtmS0nmRL6yhjpO2310f9SOVfYOx0K8gQP_X+P-Be2t=Yg@mail.gmail.com>

A higher percentage of males have colour sight deficiencies than
female. better not argue :).

The colour balance of the illuminating light will also effect your
perception of colour.

I have had to take a number of colour sight tests due to my work in the past.

and as for

"On a slightly relevant note, consider 2 colour photocopiers. If you
photocopy the same colour image on both, do both copiers give exactly the
same output colourwise?"

unlikely as the setup can be different and the makeup of the inks
needs calibrating.

Transforming from one colour set to another including is fraught with
difficulties due to
 the actual values (hue,luminace) of red,green,blue (for additive mixing)
and cyan,magenta,yellow) (subtractive mixing) and the fact that the
colour triangle of a
subtractive print system cannot print all the colours that a monitor
can display.
It is not a simple inversion as some think, one has to calibrate and
use the measured values in conversion routines.

For fun display a grey scale on the monitor, print it, look for off
grey in places (no cheating by using black)
this is one of the reasons why better printers have a black and more
than 3 colour inks.

Dave Caroline


From ragooman at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 09:14:57 2011
From: ragooman at gmail.com (Dan Roganti)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 10:14:57 -0500
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
In-Reply-To: <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <CADo=F9HhgjwT8U1fW8FdF_F+_x+_8iRV6341Dxw+pkZHHWuOOg@mail.gmail.com>

> From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> >    My fiancee' and I have the exact same disagreement
> >about Cray J90 racks.  We'll both be standing in front of
> >one, I'll say "this is brown!" and she'll say "you're nuts,
>> that's gray!"
> >

Sorry, but it's gray.......

Dan


From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Fri Dec 23 09:44:20 2011
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:44:20 +0100
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <003c01ccc189$c021c260$40654720$@xs4all.nl>



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> Namens Al Kossow
> Verzonden: vrijdag 23 december 2011 1:28
> Aan: classiccmp at classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: HP 1000 software collection
> 
> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the
past
> ten years.
> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement
between
> CHM and HP.
> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time
to
> organize it.
> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading
later
> tonight.
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection

Great work !

Thanks,
-Rik



From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Fri Dec 23 09:50:27 2011
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:50:27 +0100
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112231118350.14422@linuxserv.home>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112231118350.14422@linuxserv.home>
Message-ID: <003d01ccc18a$9b0d75e0$d12861a0$@xs4all.nl>



> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
> Van: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
> Namens Christian Corti
> Verzonden: vrijdag 23 december 2011 11:30
> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Onderwerp: Re: HP 1000 software collection
> 
> On Thu, 22 Dec 2011, Al Kossow wrote:
> > J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over
> > the past ten years. The software is available for non-commercial use
> > under an agreement between CHM and HP. A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan
> > for doing this, since I haven't had the time to organize it. There are
> > over
> > 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading later tonight.
> >
> > http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection
> 
> Outstanding! That makes HP2100/HP1000 probably more interesting than e.g.
> PDP11, at least from the SW point of view.
> 
> Christian

Christian I've to correct you..
HP always was more interesting, they made the best build an engineered
machines.
Well until they started with PC's ..;-)
I love it, this is great, play time arrived just in time for the Holidays
;-)

-Rik




From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Fri Dec 23 10:12:17 2011
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 08:12:17 -0800
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CFAC.601@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org> <4EF3CFAC.601@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <201112230812.17669.lbickley@bickleywest.com>

On Thursday 22 December 2011, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 12/22/11 2:21 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> > the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> > http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/
> >
> 
> I fixed the line wrap on the readme and copyright files, and noticed the
> path was specified, so I had to move it to
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/univOfMichigan/mts/

This is great news! While I was working at IBM's Poughkeepsie Dev. Lab. in the 60's and early 70's, Bernard Galler (U of M) used to be a regular guest at the Lab. He lectured us on the MAD programming language and, of course, "The Michigan Terminal System" (MTS). His lectures ranged from the internals to the practical uses of MTS.

He was very critical of IBM's lack of direction with regards to time sharing - and hence tried to "convert" as many of us development folks as possible into becoming timeshare advocates! After months of attending his lectures - he would get huge ovations when he would chastise IBM for not moving in the direction of "real" time sharing ;-)

According to Wikipedia, MTS "still runs using IBM S/370 emulators such as Hercules, Sim390, and FLEX-ES".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System

I'll certainly give a shot at getting it running :-)

Cheers,
Lyle
-- 
Lyle Bickley, AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"


From barythrin at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 23 11:23:24 2011
From: barythrin at yahoo.com (Sam Onella)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 09:23:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Broken Amiga keyboard
In-Reply-To: <20111223093448.GB71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett>
Message-ID: <1324661004.53704.YahooMailClassic@web161206.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Probably check the traces for dust/dirt or corrosion along that key area.  If it's been in a clean environment (i.e no rat diseases)  ..and you can do it while your wife's away you might try throwing it in the dishwasher and letting it dry after that before using.  Sometimes that cleans older keyboards pretty well if it's just a gunk issue.


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Fri Dec 23 11:27:12 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 18:27:12 +0100 (CET)
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <003d01ccc18a$9b0d75e0$d12861a0$@xs4all.nl>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
 <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112231118350.14422@linuxserv.home>
 <003d01ccc18a$9b0d75e0$d12861a0$@xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112231819040.10499@linuxserv.home>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Rik Bos wrote:
> Christian I've to correct you..
> HP always was more interesting, they made the best build an engineered
> machines.

True, they're very well engineered and built machines, although they're 
only PDP-8s on steroids... but I really like them.

> Well until they started with PC's ..;-)

At least they're still building PCs and (other) computers today ;-)

> I love it, this is great, play time arrived just in time for the Holidays
> ;-)

I'll have to wait until next year before I can play with our HPs at the 
museum. And then there are so many other projects.

Christian


From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 13:11:41 2011
From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:11:41 -0500
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <201112230812.17669.lbickley@bickleywest.com>
References: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org> <4EF3CFAC.601@bitsavers.org>
 <201112230812.17669.lbickley@bickleywest.com>
Message-ID: <CAHfSdrViCi-YBCc5QNvCt1L7U_Rz-D1UThn7X3-ocyMZVUvU-g@mail.gmail.com>

Just a quick question: besides various post-6.0 bug fixes, what
difference will the forthcoming ready-to-run distribution have a
compared to a system built according to the instructions in
D6.0-NEWSYS.txt? Is it worth installing a 6.0 system or would it be
best for new users to wait for a ready-to-run solution?

Mike


From elazzerini at interfree.it  Fri Dec 23 12:47:00 2011
From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:47:00 +0100
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
Message-ID: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>

Hi all,

after i finally resurrected my BIGBOARD and I made ??the boot of the operating system CP/M, are struggling with reading old diskettes. Before i comes out completely my mind in the counting of all parameters to pass to the program 22disk, someone knows a comprehensive guide on how to decode the disc formats? I am very close to the identification of parameters, but frankly it is extremely stressful. I'll try to list where I am keeping in mind that the format Bigboard 1 has 77 tracks x 26 sectors / track each with 128byte single-density single-sided.

 

1) almost every disk CP/M in the first 2 tracks the format is 77 tracks x 26 sectors / track each from 128byte.

2) then starts the data portion that would be double-sided and i need to remove from this portion the sectors used for the FAT whose number is to be calculated as a function of the total number of sectors to be managed;

3) i'm able to reconstruct the sequence of sectors on the disk for the first 2 tracks with the CP/M and for the remain data area;

4) then takes over a parameter which is the allocation unit size that means how fields are grouped together to determine the parameters DRM

5) the allocation unit size determines all the other parameters BSH, BLM, DSM

6) Finally, AL0 and AL0 that the  22disk's document did not clarify well to me.

 

SO: that it is a bit hard for me... 

Is out there anyone who can help me?

 

Excuse for my poor english.

 

Enrico -Pisa - Italy



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 23 14:30:23 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 12:30:23 -0800
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
Message-ID: <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>

On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:

> Hi all,
... 

The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.

'nuff said.

--Chuck



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Fri Dec 23 15:30:34 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 13:30:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks 
In-Reply-To: <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Andrew Burton wrote:
> Going OT, but there have been studies about colour. For example, IIRC, blue

Gotta URL?

> causes us to wake up and/or stay awake. So if you are out at a
> restaurant/club at night and it's lit in blue, don't be surprised if you
> feel wide awake and very energetic.

Vegas casinos are about the only ones who've acted on any such
information.  They have NOT repainted blue.

> On the other hand red (or was it purple?) causes us to perceive a period of
> time to be quicker than it is (up to 1/3 quicker).

Have you EVER seen a hospital "Waiting Room" that was red?
"up to" must be VERY significant, if that is not several orders of
magnitude exaggerated.

> It is my personal belief that whilst we all know about the rods and
> cones in our eyes, that we each have a variation in the number of each.
> Thus what I see as red, may be interpreted by someone else as a slightly
> darker red.

Absolutely!

I used to have a BLUE Ford Falcon.  Almost Navy Blue.  Yet, a significant
number of people referred to it as "green"!

I am buying a Prius V.  It is "Blue Ribbon Metallic", which to me seems a
little more purplish than Navy Blue.
They tried to interest me in one that they insisted was "Sky Blue".  "Ice
Blue" perhaps.  Nobody could call it "SKY BLUE" who lives anywhere that
ever gets a non-overcast day.  I told them that if my skies weren't bluer
than that, then I would move to a sunnier climate.
("Sky blue" IS an established color name, and is included in X11)

> Along those lines there has been atleast one study, where a
> computer screen displayed something like 12 cubes all in a circle (like
> the face of a clock). 11 of the squares were the same colour and one was
> a different colour. They then surveyed lots of people (including one
> remote tribe) and the results were interesting. For example on one
> occasion the 11 squares were green and the different coloured one was
> blue. However, alot of the tribesmen (and women) struggled to tell the
> difference. The theory was that if you have never been exposed to a
> particular colour before (or not very often), then the brain would never
> learn to recognise and/or interpret it.

Hence somebody from Seattle might not recognize "sky blue"

> Plus, regardless of the cones/rods idea, the data from our eyes may be
> interpreted slightly differently by our brains.
> FYI, I know all this because I watched a documentary (Horizon on the BBC?)
> about it around half a year ago.

Difficult to obtain here.
Even Hyperland (pre WWW BBC documetary about the future of the internet,
done by Douglas Adams, Tom Baker, and Ted Nelson!) has only been available
here as a mediocre quality pirated version :-(

> On a slightly relevant note, consider 2 colour photocopiers. If you
> photocopy the same colour image on both, do both copiers give exactly the
> same output colourwise?

In color REPRODUCTION, it's a little easier.  "Copy" an "18% Neutral Gray"
card (available from professional photgraphy supply houses).  The result
provides a visual (and quantifiably measurable!) referrent to exactly how
much and in what ways the color was altered/corrupted.
NB: Kodak sells "18% Gray"; British suppliers have "18% Grey".  Those look
visually as though they are both the same color AND colour.
There are also readily available color patches to use.

Back when I was an "Environmental Systems Analyst" (needs to be in
quotes), I solved a problem for the Michigan water pollution authorities
by giving them one of my copies of the "Kodak Color Dataguide" (Sorry, no
ISBN), so that they could leave it open to page 10 and 11 in the corenr of
the pictures that their field agents took.  The inclusion of 18% GRAY,
Grayscale, and "Color Control Patches" in the pictures enabled them to
prevent the automatic processing form "correcting" the colors in the
pictures.
NB: I would not have parted with it if I didn't have a spare!  It is FUN!

Also, read through "Color As Seen And Photographed".

Here's another puzzle for you:
Your screen (computer, NTSC/PAL/SECAM, etc.) simulates colors by mixing
varying amounts of Red, Green, and Blue.  That method works, even if the
spectrum used has extremely sharp peaks!  It can produce orange, yellow,
indigo, and violet, even though there is NO light of those exact specific
frequencies!


For X11 color names and specs,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X11_color_names
is adequate for non-critical use, and check out the links!

Pantone is the acknowledged form of color matching for any serious usage.
"What color is it?  Specify the Pantone number."

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec 23 16:02:42 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:02:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks
In-Reply-To: <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201112232202.RAA27857@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Here's another puzzle for you:
> Your screen (computer, NTSC/PAL/SECAM, etc.) simulates colors by
> mixing varying amounts of Red, Green, and Blue.  That method works,
> even if the spectrum used has extremely sharp peaks!  It can produce
> orange, yellow, indigo, and violet, even though there is NO light of
> those exact specific frequencies!

Not quite.  It can cause the human visual system to produce perceptions
which match fairly closely those produced by orange, yellow, etc light.
It can't actually produce orange, yellow, etc, light, nor is it likely
to fool a visual system (organic or electronic) that doesn't have
response curves reasonably close to those of the human visual system.
(With suitable recalibration it might be able to fool some of them.)

> Pantone is the acknowledged form of color matching for any serious
> usage.  "What color is it?  Specify the Pantone number."

Only for things where it's human perception that matters.  For certain
other things you may have to actually describe the whole spectrum,
which, even aside from the degree of approximation involved, is a lot
more information than is contained in a Pantone number.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Dec 23 16:25:51 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:25:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
 <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231425240.8577@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
> ...
>
> The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.
>
No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it) on 
the Sydex homepage. :)

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 16:32:50 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:32:50 -0200
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
 <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231425240.8577@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <037101ccc1c2$d3dd3e90$6400a8c0@tababook>

> No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it) on 
> the Sydex homepage. :)|

    BTW, was this page made in 1987? :o)


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 23 16:34:16 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:34:16 -0800
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231425240.8577@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231425240.8577@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>

On 23 Dec 2011 at 14:25, Gene Buckle wrote:

> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 
> > On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
> >
> >> Hi all,
> > ...
> >
> > The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.
> >
> No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
> on the Sydex homepage. :)

We have an email address.

--Chuck



From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 16:22:13 2011
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:22:13 -0000
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CALfYgtmS0nmRL6yhjpO2310f9SOVfYOx0K8gQP_X+P-Be2t=Yg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <024d01ccc1c3$09557240$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Dave Caroline" <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:57 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on
ebay)


> A higher percentage of males have colour sight deficiencies than
> female. better not argue :).
>

No arguing here :)
I wear glasses (and so did a mate at school), but I can't think of any women
I know (or have known) that wear glasses.


> For fun display a grey scale on the monitor, print it, look for off
> grey in places (no cheating by using black)
> this is one of the reasons why better printers have a black and more
> than 3 colour inks.
>

Ahh, I see :)


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk




From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 23 16:35:24 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:35:24 -0800
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks
In-Reply-To: <201112232202.RAA27857@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>,
 <201112232202.RAA27857@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <4EF491AC.28252.EEDE83@cclist.sydex.com>

On 23 Dec 2011 at 17:02, Mouse wrote:

> Not quite.  It can cause the human visual system to produce
> perceptions which match fairly closely those produced by orange,
> yellow, etc light. It can't actually produce orange, yellow, etc,
> light, nor is it likely to fool a visual system (organic or
> electronic) that doesn't have response curves reasonably close to
> those of the human visual system. (With suitable recalibration it
> might be able to fool some of them.)

This brings to mind the Land color system using white and red light.

--Chuck



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Fri Dec 23 16:47:32 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:47:32 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231425240.8577@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231444390.9379@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 23 Dec 2011 at 14:25, Gene Buckle wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>>
>>> On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>> ...
>>>
>>> The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.
>>>
>> No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
>> on the Sydex homepage. :)
>
> We have an email address.
>
I'm happy for you.  It still doesn't lead anyone to think that 22disk is 
available any longer.  You might want to go out on a limb and do something 
wild and crazy like mention somewhere on the homepage that 22disk is still 
available.  I know, I know - crazy talk.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 23 16:49:20 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 14:49:20 -0800
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <037101ccc1c2$d3dd3e90$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <037101ccc1c2$d3dd3e90$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4EF494F0.21865.FBA013@cclist.sydex.com>

On 23 Dec 2011 at 20:32, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:

> > No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
> > on the Sydex homepage. :)|
> 
>     BTW, was this page made in 1987? :o)

You want to redesign it, be my guest.

--Chuck





From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Fri Dec 23 17:09:57 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 21:09:57 -0200
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <037101ccc1c2$d3dd3e90$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <4EF494F0.21865.FBA013@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <039a01ccc1c8$0c905fb0$6400a8c0@tababook>

>>     BTW, was this page made in 1987? :o)
> You want to redesign it, be my guest.

    I'd be glad to, but take a look here: 
    http://www.tabalabs.com.br

    Are you SURE you want me to do that? ;oD


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 15:48:37 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 21:48:37 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <201112222157.QAA26404@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 22, 11 04:57:46 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReCyr-000J43C@p850ug1>

> >> [...] an AC voltmeter in series with a moderately large capaci-- um,
> >> condenser, for DC isolation.  [...]
> > What you need is that the impedance of the capacitor at the mains
> > frequency is small compared ot the input resistnace of the meter.
> 
> Well, at the putative ripple frequency.  As you point out below, on a

True. However, the impedance of a capacitor decreases with freqeucny, so 
if it's low enough at a given freqeucy, it'll be even better at higher 
frequencies.

The lowest freqeucny ripple you are going to get from any normal PSU is 
at the mains freqeuncy. A linear PSU may well have ripple at twice the 
mains freqeucny, an SMPSU at the switching frequency or multiples thereof. 
So having a low enough impedance at mains frequency should be enough.

> SMPSU one of the possible ripple frequencies is the switching
> frequency (and if that's not well above mains frequency you've got a
> broken, or at least seriously weird, SMPSU...or something unusual for

I would be _very_ suprised if any SMPU was deisgned to switch at a 
frequency lower than mains. One advantage of SMPSus is that, since they 
run at higherr freqeuencies, you can use smaller transformers and 
smoothing capacitors. Adding complexxity (by making it a switcher) and 
then having to use a larger transformer and smoothing capacitors than if 
it was a simple mains transformer-based supply (possibly with 
swithcing-type voltage regualtors to impove the efficiency over a purely 
linear supply) would make no sense.

[There are, of course, choppers that run at lest then mains freqeuncy to 
generate lower-frequency _AC_ outputs from the supply, perhaps to run an 
indcution motor at a lower speed, or for telephone ringing, But that's 
not applicable here]


> mains power; ISTR something somewhere that had a mains power frequency
> in the kHz, or at least hundreds of Hz....)

IIIRC, power line losses increas with frequency, so this would be unusual 
to say the least.

At one time various areas of England had their own power stations, not 
linked by the national grid. And they were most certainly nor all 50Hz. I 
think the highest was 100Hz, though, the last place to have that was 
Lynton/Lynmouth in North Devon.

> 
> > A 1uF capacitor should be fine for most cases.  [...]  One advantage
> > the 'scope has though, is that it lets yo see the ripple frequency.
> 
> Actually, if you don't have a 'scope, you can get _some_ idea of the
> ripple spectrum by trying multiple different cap values, with known
> resistors in parallel across your meter if it's particularly high
> impedance (like the >10M tony mentioned).  You likely will have to do
> some arithmetic, though.

I would think making an adjustable (active) filter would eb simpler here. 
But if you are serious enough about electroncis to want to do soemthing 
like that, you are also serious enough to want to get a 'scope I think.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 16:03:32 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:03:32 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Broken Amiga keyboard
In-Reply-To: <20111222220516.GA71270@klump.hjerdalen.lokalnett> from "Eivind
 Evensen" at Dec 22, 11 11:05:16 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReDDF-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> I have an Amiga keyboard (pcb says A3000) where the four
> keys 1, q, a and z doesn't work. The rest of the keyboard
> functions well.
> 
> This happened after a longer period where I didn't use the keyboard.
> 
> Does anybody have any ideas of things to check out to try
> to get this working again?

Most keyboards I know of one exception [1]) have the keyswithcs arranged 
in a rectangualr matrix. The 'column' lines are scanned (each one is 
driven in turn), and the row lines are tested by the keyboard cotnrolelr 
to see if any swithces are closed

[1] The kleyboard for the hP9816.

In gneral,. individual keys that have failed mean a problem with those 
swithces. A comlete row or column of the matrixx not working oftne 
indicates a problem with the logic circuitry associateds with that row or 
column.

Now 4 rows is rather too few (8 is more common), so perhaps an eitrie
column isn't missning. but of course you don't have to ahve a swithc at
every possiton. Perhaps the matrix is electrically 16*8, giving places for
128 keys, but only, say 101 are used. That could result in a column with 
only 4 switches in it.

Needless t osay a schematic, including a matrix layout, is very useufl, 
but I assume you don't ahve one, and have no chance of getting it.

Do you know how thw keyboard works mechanically, If there are individual 
keyswitchs solder to the PCB, you can use an ohmmeter to test each switch 
and see if it closes in the obviosu way. You can also trace the PCB 
tracks between the switchs and back to the control electronics to see if 
there are any breaks. If you can identify what drives the columns (it may 
an putput poert on a microcontrolelr, or a separate TTL decoder IC to 
save pins on the microcontrolelr), you can see if each column is being 
driven using a 'scope or logic analyuser.

If it's a membrane keyboard, identfuable by flexible plastic 'tails' with 
conductive traces on them plugged into sockets on the control pCB, then 
first make sure those are seated properly. Some mambrane assemblies are 
held together by lots of small screws, others are heat-staked. If the 
former, you could caefully take it apart (make a diagram of where the keys 
go, jsut in case things come loose), and inspect the membrane sheets. 
Maybe the defective keys need cleaning, maybe there's a break in one of 
the traces (the _condcutive_ silver paint sold for repairing traces, etc 
is useful for reparing this. 

If it's a Keytronics capacitive unit, identified by the PCB under hte 
keys with apparanetly nothing soldered to it in that area, remove the PCB by 
taking out all the scresws. You can now inspect the foam/mylar pad 
assemblies. Perhaps you have some decayed foma, or the meralisation ahs 
disappearsd from the faulty keys.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 16:15:16 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:15:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
In-Reply-To: <4EF3AD77.1090402@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Dec 22,
 11 02:21:43 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReDOc-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> the sources and binaries for MTS are now available under
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/UniversityOfMichigan/mts/
> 
> 

That's excellent. Great preservation

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 16:17:21 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:17:21 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Dec 22,
 11 04:27:59 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReDQe-000J4MC@p850ug1>

> 
> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the past ten years.
> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement between CHM and HP.
> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time to organize it.
> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading later tonight.
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection

That's excellent too (and probably of more practical use, there being 
more HP1000s around than machines that can run MTS). I must take a look.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 23 16:59:54 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 22:59:54 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <003d01ccc18a$9b0d75e0$d12861a0$@xs4all.nl> from "Rik Bos" at Dec
 23, 11 04:50:27 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReE5m-000J4SC@p850ug1>

> Christian I've to correct you..
> HP always was more interesting, they made the best build an engineered
> machines.


Ooh... That's going to start a Holy War :-)

HP stuff (real, HP stuff, before the PC era) was beautifully built. It 
was also well-designend and often very clever (I've said that I consider 
the HP9100 to be the nost elegant piece of electronics I've ever had the 
pleasure of working on). 

On the other hand, PDP8s and PDP11s are well made, well engineered, and 
interesting. It's impoissible to red the PDP11/45 CPU and floating point 
microcode and not admire it. 

And for anotehr manufacturer, the PERQ CPU is an interesting design too.

Can we agree to get on, and preserve _all_ these fine machines and their 
software, please...

-tony


From jecel at merlintec.com  Fri Dec 23 18:29:05 2011
From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 21:29:05 -0300 
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks
In-Reply-To: <4EF491AC.28252.EEDE83@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>,
 <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>,
 <201112232202.RAA27857@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
 <4EF491AC.28252.EEDE83@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201112232331.pBNNVW7O052512@billy.ezwind.net>

Chuck wrote:
> On 23 Dec 2011 at 17:02, Mouse wrote:
> 
> > Not quite.  It can cause the human visual system to produce
> > perceptions which match fairly closely those produced by orange,
> > yellow, etc light. It can't actually produce orange, yellow, etc,
> > light, nor is it likely to fool a visual system (organic or
> > electronic) that doesn't have response curves reasonably close to
> > those of the human visual system. (With suitable recalibration it
> > might be able to fool some of them.)
> 
> This brings to mind the Land color system using white and red light.

http://www.wendycarlos.com/colorvis/color.html has more information
about this.

And here is an interesting claim that humans have four kinds of cones,
with the fourth being for ultraviolet. But they have little effect due
to all the transparent parts of the eye blocking that light range.
Little effect isn't the same as no effect, however.

http://www.neuronresearch.net/vision/files/tetrachromat.htm

-- Jecel



From IanK at vulcan.com  Fri Dec 23 17:52:17 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 23:52:17 +0000
Subject: Anyone heard from/of Curt@atarimuseum.com? 
In-Reply-To: <2F25BE3D5F64F342B56139F31854C9B902CBBB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com>
Message-ID: <CB1A53CA.A513%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/19/11 11:29 AM, "Ian King" <IanK at vulcan.com> wrote:

>He and I were engaged in an email exchange that suddenly stopped, and I
>hope nothing unpleasant has befallen him.  Thanks -- Ian

FYI, Curt got in touch with me, all is well.  -- Ian 




From IanK at vulcan.com  Fri Dec 23 17:59:18 2011
From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 23:59:18 +0000
Subject: FS. PDP 11/35 + RK05 units in Yorkshire
In-Reply-To: <1324334885.85171.YahooMailNeo@web65906.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CB1A55B8.A52A%iank@vulcan.com>

On 12/19/11 2:48 PM, "silvercreekvalley" <silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com>
wrote:

>All gone now. Thanks for the interest.

I'm glad it found a home.  I'm in Seattle?.  -- Ian 




From ajp166 at verizon.net  Fri Dec 23 18:04:33 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 19:04:33 -0500
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
Message-ID: <4EF51711.4050401@verizon.net>

On 12/23/2011 01:47 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> after i finally resurrected my BIGBOARD and I made ??the boot of the operating system CP/M, are struggling with reading old diskettes. Before i comes out completely my mind in the counting of all parameters to pass to the program 22disk, someone knows a comprehensive guide on how to decode the disc formats? I am very close to the identification of parameters, but frankly it is extremely stressful. I'll try to list where I am keeping in mind that the format Bigboard 1 has 77 tracks x 26 sectors / track each with 128byte single-density single-sided.
>
>
>
> 1) almost every disk CP/M in the first 2 tracks the format is 77 tracks x 26 sectors / track each from 128byte.
Only if 8" single density, which was a standard for CP/m If you had 8 
inch.  It's referred to as 8" SSSD.

Most of my systems the disk is 5.25 and either 16 sectors of 256 or 9 
sectors of 512 (both DD) or the oddball
18 sector single density.  Once the users left 8" single density single 
sided there were very few standards
but a few were frequently used.


> 2) then starts the data portion that would be double-sided and i need to remove from this portion the sectors used for the FAT whose number is to be calculated as a function of the total number of sectors to be managed;
>

FAT??  CP/M never used FAT as the allocation scheme was considerably 
different.

More completely the FAT does not exist in the CP/M file structures.

A peek inside the CP/M file system:

CPM uses the directory as a block of data the first 16 bytes are the 
file data like name and extension.  The
second 16 bytes are the allocation block numbers (as byte values for 
small disks or word values for large
disks) allocated to the file.  If the file has more allocation blocks 
than fit in a directory extent there will mean
additional directory entries (called extents) for that file and 
additional block allocations.  Directory areas are
reserved in the current allocation block size for that media 
(1/2/4/8/16k)  and remain fixed in size.  From a
programmers view the extents (each entry) carried additional information 
about the file in first 16 bytes
11 of which were for the file name and extension (8.3) and the remaining 
bytes told if it was erased or in
use (relative byte 0),and the last 4 bytes (relative bytes 12,13,14,15) 
had data on the file and the actual
extent number if there was more than one.

File directory was a list of file names with a linkage for files of more 
than one extent.

What this means is CP/M has to read the entire directory to "log in" a 
disk and establish the used and available
file space and those values are stored temporarily as bit strings in 
variables called ALLOC0 and ALLOC1.

This is where FAT and CP/M are different the FAT scheme has a reserved 
block on disk saying whats used
and unused, where CP/M the file extents contain the block number of the 
used areas to get a FAT like table
you read the directory and using the block numbers (and BIOS specific 
data) you create a list of used
and available allocation areas.  There are other differences ut that one 
is where the two diverge the most.


Its important to note that CP/M V2 and up was deigned to allow an 
experienced programmer to build their own
BIOS for a new machine or extend/improve it to allow for new storage 
media and other I/O.   All of the format
on the media decisions were variables available to the programmer.   
This allowed great flexibility in media
used with only one restrictions that being the media must be block 
addressable and that CP/M could only
address  large devices in logical blocks of 8mb maximum though a large 
disk could be sliced up into
multiple logical disks.    This allowed it to be used with block 
addressable tape, floppies
of all sizes, hard disks, Ram disks, ROMdisks, Bubble memory, even 
modern IDE, CF and SD.

Note the concept of a partition table is also not par of CP/M though the 
BIOS could accommodate that
using an offset into the media.


With all that said..  THE 8"SSSD CP/M standard.

First sector number are 1,,26 there is no 0.  Tracks are numbered 0 to 76.

CP/M used a logical sector of 128 bytes and SSSD was also a physical 
sector of 128 bytes.   Larger sectors can
be used but then deblocking is the responsibility of the BIOS to manage 
and the OS has the cues to help.  For
the 8" SSSD case we do not have to worry about deblocking.

The first two tracks of 26 x 128 were reserved for system with first 
sector having a boot file and the remaining ones used
to store the image of CPM (complete CCP, BDOS and BIOS).   These do not 
exist in the file system and the BIOS has these
as an offset into the media.  There is an actual BIOS pararmeter called 
offset and it is used by the OS to calculate the
file position on the disk.

The actual file system starts at track 2 sector 1 (first sector of track 
2) and continues to track 76 sector 26.  It is for all
intents the logical 0 point of the disk.

Space on the disk is allocated in 1K block (groups of 8 128 byte 
sectors) per 8"SSSD standard.  There are 1950
128 byte sectors available but they are used as 1K blocks so there are 
243kbytes (1K=1024 bytes) of
allocatable space.  Yes, there are six unused sectors at the end of the 
disk because the smallest block
the OS can allocate is 1K (8 sectors) it's unusable.

The first two blocks of 1K is preallocated as directory and can hold 64 
directory entries of 32bytes each.
thsi reduces the available space by 2K so there are 241K bytes of space 
on an empty disk.  The ALV0 and ALV1
parameters in the BIOS preallocate these.  ALV1=11000000b and 
ALV1=00000000b (again for SSSD 8").
The ALV parameter is a bit map of used allocation blocks and for the 
8"SSSD case is typically a reserved
area in ram of 31 bytes total (one bit for every Allocation block of the 
media).  This is stored in the BIOS
and reflected in the medias file system organization and format.

A file can be a be 1 byte ( but one 1K allocation block will be 
consumed) or can be as large as 16Kbytes
for a file extent, and using multiple extents the file can be as large 
as 241K (again for the SSSD 8" case).
A file can be scattered across the disk as the OS allocates blocks on an 
available basis with a bias to
sequential blocks they exist.  So file fragmentation is expected after 
multiple create and delete cycles.

The sectors used to create a allocation block may not be sequential.  
There is a parameter to allow
skewing sectors to allow for rotation of media for better access time.  
The 8" SSSD was a skew of 6
was used based on the 8080 CPU speed and current floppy controllers.  
This is also both optional
and the skew value is up to the system programmer writing the BIOS.  For 
example for most hard
disks th rotation rate was so high that skew is never used.

> 3) i'm able to reconstruct the sequence of sectors on the disk for the first 2 tracks with the CP/M and for the remain data area;

The first two tracks of a cpm disk are the system tracks and are for 
loading the OS itself.  They are prior to the directory
block and the general storage (called data) area after that.  They are 
reserved by the BIOS but there is no on disk table
of that allocation.

> 4) then takes over a parameter which is the allocation unit size that means how fields are grouped together to determine the parameters DRM
>
> 5) the allocation unit size determines all the other parameters BSH, BLM, DSM
>

Correct this establish the disk size in storage units or allocation 
blocks in the range of 1k,2k,4k, rarely larger for floppies but can be 
larger
for hard disks.

This establishes things like skew and other file system geometry.  They 
are programmable and the BIOS designer can
as they wish select them values that suit their system.

> 6) Finally, AL0 and AL0 that the  22disk's document did not clarify well to me.
>
AL0 and AL1 are storage areas to accounting information in the BIOS area 
(in ram) for tracking what allocation blocks
are in use.  Important to the BIOS programmer but not part of the on 
disk structure.
This is meaningless to 22disk which read disks as foreign but requires 
knowledge of the foreign disks organization.

Do not confuse this with ALV which 22disk needs to know so it used the 
directory correctly and of the correct size.

> SO: that it is a bit hard for me...
>

S0??  I need context for that to mean any thing.


> Is out there anyone who can help me?
>

I hope this is a help.  I've written many a BIOS for CP/M systems and 
even rewrote portions of the internal code
for my own entertainment.  If your used to DOS or Windoes based OS then 
this will look very foreign as they
are different in how they used disks.

>
>
> Excuse for my poor english.
>

Seems good to me.  But I only speak one language and I admire those that 
can speak many.

Allison

>
>
> Enrico -Pisa - Italy
>
>



From cclist at sydex.com  Fri Dec 23 18:20:51 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 16:20:51 -0800
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231444390.9379@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231444390.9379@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>

On 23 Dec 2011 at 14:47, Gene Buckle wrote:

> I'm happy for you.  It still doesn't lead anyone to think that 22disk
> is available any longer.  You might want to go out on a limb and do
> something wild and crazy like mention somewhere on the homepage that
> 22disk is still available.  I know, I know - crazy talk.

Sigh.  We quit advertising because quite honestly, people now lack 
the *hardware* to do for themselves.  Sample questions:

1)  Can I use my PC with Windows 7 64-bit and a USB floppy drive?
2)  I found a floppy drive on Craigslist, how do I hook it to my 
laptop so I can use your software?
3)  I ordered 22Disk from you people and it won't read my Brother 
typewriter floppies.
4)  Is MS-DOS the same as Windows?

You get the idea.  

I've worked out two "re-do" versions of 22Disk since the one everyone 
seems to know.  One deals with really oddball formats (differently-
sized sectors, weird skews, etc.) and the other is a Win32 product 
with a kernel-mode floppy driver.  But now, even floppy interfaces 
are dead, so aside from a couple of OEM sales, we've let them drop.

We'd just as soon encourage people to send us their media and have us 
do the work for them.  Very often, what they think they've got isn't 
what they really have.

It's better that they should contact us rather than be bitterly 
disappointed.

It seems that most CP/M stuff is finally really dead, but for a few 
industrial exceptions.  In the last two weeks, not one job was 
related to CP/M.  Word processors and oddly, two ISIS-II jobs (one 
from an MDS-800 (MMFM) and the other from an iPDS (MFM)).

Now, if someone can help to design a web page for me that addresses 
that aspect, I'd be grateful.  I might even show my gratitude.  I am 
NOT a visually-oriented person--most flashy web sites are horrible 
muddles to me.

Thanks,
Chuck





From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Dec 23 19:22:34 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 17:22:34 -0800
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <m1ReDQe-000J4MC@p850ug1>
References: <m1ReDQe-000J4MC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EF5295A.3060008@jwsss.com>



On 12/23/2011 2:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the past ten years.
>> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement between CHM and HP.
>> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time to organize it.
>> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading later tonight.
>>
>> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection
> That's excellent too (and probably of more practical use, there being
> more HP1000s around than machines that can run MTS). I must take a look.
>
> -tony
>
>
most pc's and even PDA's will be able to run MTS as soon as they work 
thru the sources.  There has been a lot of work put into that, and it is 
good the release has finally come through.

I have an HP-1000 of the iron type, and would love to run the soft 
type.  There are usually so many fewer problems with exploding old power 
supply caps with software emulations, and the software is actually the 
final payoff anyway.

Jim


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Fri Dec 23 19:33:37 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:33:37 -0500
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF5295A.3060008@jwsss.com>
References: <m1ReDQe-000J4MC@p850ug1> <4EF5295A.3060008@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <9C6D9190-761A-4D5E-94C3-39CEFB24AE7F@neurotica.com>

On Dec 23, 2011, at 8:22 PM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
> I have an HP-1000 of the iron type, and would love to run the soft type.  There are usually so many fewer problems with exploding old power supply caps with software emulations, and the software is actually the final payoff anyway.

  Not for everyone.  Wanna part with your HP-1000? ;)

         -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec 23 19:48:06 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:48:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <m1ReCyr-000J43C@p850ug1>
References: <m1ReCyr-000J43C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <201112240148.UAA01497@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> What you need is that the impedance of the capacitor at the mains
>>> frequency is small compared ot the input resistnace of the meter.
>> Well, at the putative ripple frequency.  [...]
> True.  However, the impedance of a capacitor decreases with
> freqeucny, so if it's low enough at a given freqeucy, it'll be even
> better at higher frequencies.  [and mains is the lowest frequency you
> are likely to care about for ripple]

Yes.  I realized this myself...about three hours after sending my note
to the list.

>> SMPSU [...] the switching frequency (and if that's not well above
>> mains frequency you've got a broken, or at least seriously weird,
>> SMPSU...
> I would be _very_ suprised if any SMPU was deisgned to switch at a
> frequency lower than mains.

So would I - hence the "broken" possibility.  But I also know I don't
know everything, and there just might be some SMPSU out there that
switches at a frequency lower than mains for some bizarre reason.
(Maybe it does FM instead of PWM to control the output voltage, and
under low-to-zero load the switching frequency ratchets way back?)

>> or something unusual for mains power; ISTR something somewhere that
>> had a mains power frequency in the kHz, or at least hundreds of
>> Hz....)
> IIIRC, power line losses increas with frequency, so this would be
> unusual to say the least.

I think it was something that, like a boat or airplane, is not part of
the large-scale power grid but which does have enough of a power
distribution system for it to be fair to call it "mains".

But that memory is pretty fuzzy; I could be just plain misremembering.

>>> A 1uF capacitor should be fine for most cases.
>> Actually, if you don't have a 'scope, you can get _some_ idea of the
>> ripple spectrum by trying multiple different cap values, with known
>> resistors in parallel across your meter if it's particularly high
>> impedance (like the >10M tony mentioned).  You likely will have to
>> do some arithmetic, though.
> I would think making an adjustable (active) filter would eb simpler
> here.

Possibly, in many cases.  But see below.

> But if you are serious enough about electroncis to want to do
> soemthing like that, you are also serious enough to want to get a
> 'scope I think.

In general, I would agree.  The scenario I had in mind was less the
"let's build the tools I'm going to use routinely" one and more the
"okay, I'm stuck here with minimal equipment and parts, what can I
improvise to find out the information I want?" one.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From tosteve at yahoo.com  Fri Dec 23 22:10:09 2011
From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel)
Date: Fri, 23 Dec 2011 20:10:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: IBM 5120, Datamaster (system 23) in FLA
Message-ID: <1324699809.51889.YahooMailClassic@web110615.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Neal wrote to me:

>> I was a developer way back when and still have my 5120 & Sys 23.  
>> 
>> I'd like to find these relics a nice home instead of the landfill.  
>> They were painted funky colors (they look great - not the ugly grey) 
>> and were used back to back with a glass top for a coffee table.
>> 
>> Neal Lebar
>> nlebar at innovatefocus.com
>> 




From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Sat Dec 24 01:52:32 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:52:32 +0100
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 01:07:46 -0200
"Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:

> AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory
No. The HP9000/7xx SIMMs look, smell, taste like PeeCee RAM, but they
are different. You need the very special, propriatary HP9000 SIMMs for
that machine.

BTW: I know where half a dozend 712/64 with 128 MB or 256 MB RAM and
HCRX24 are sitting in a shelf. They will hit the dumpster some time
next year. We are trying to get rid of them for qite some time.
Maybe I'll try to sell them at the VCFe flea market... again...
If you want one: Come and get it. Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany.
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 05:45:50 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 09:45:50 -0200
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <00b801ccc231$c0cd7c60$05000100@tababook>

> BTW: I know where half a dozend 712/64 with 128 MB or 256 MB RAM and
> HCRX24 are sitting in a shelf. They will hit the dumpster some time
> next year. We are trying to get rid of them for qite some time.
> Maybe I'll try to sell them at the VCFe flea market... again...
> If you want one: Come and get it. Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany.

    Thanks Jochen, but I'm in the other side of the globe, in Brazil :)


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 06:13:39 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 12:13:39 +0000
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
In-Reply-To: <024d01ccc1c3$09557240$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CALfYgtmS0nmRL6yhjpO2310f9SOVfYOx0K8gQP_X+P-Be2t=Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <024d01ccc1c3$09557240$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHgY-MRH2-jwR7fyDkRMv4idQvbYVRYrNtDrB_mD7QfsA@mail.gmail.com>

On 23 December 2011 22:22, Andrew Burton <aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Dave Caroline" <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 23, 2011 1:57 PM
> Subject: Re: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on
> ebay)
>
>
>> A higher percentage of males have colour sight deficiencies than
>> female. better not argue :).
>>
>
> No arguing here :)
> I wear glasses (and so did a mate at school), but I can't think of any women
> I know (or have known) that wear glasses.

What? Really? Seriously?

I find that an /amazing/ comment.

Firstly, because glasses cannot help with colour blindness.

Secondly, because the entirely separate disorders of myopia
(short-sightedness), presbyopia (long-sightedness) and astigmatism
affect both genders equally and many many women suffer from them. I
know loads of spectacle-wearing women; if you do not, I can only
assume that you don't know many women.

Of course, prevailing standards of physical appearance mean that many
women wear contact lenses rather than spectacles, or even submit to
radial keratotomy ("laser eye surgery") to avoid the "stigma" of
wearing specs. "Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses," and
crap like that.

Thirdly, colour blindness is mainly a disorder of men. Traditional
red/green colour blindness is a sex-linked condition, meaning that it
involves genes on the sex chromosomes. Males have XY, females XX.
Males are missing one arm of one chromosome. That means that a
defective gene on the other chromosome can not be "balanced out" by a
good one, so males are far more likely to be affected.

This does not apply to different visual disorders such as achromatopsia.


-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 06:22:15 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:22:15 -0200
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CALfYgtmS0nmRL6yhjpO2310f9SOVfYOx0K8gQP_X+P-Be2t=Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <024d01ccc1c3$09557240$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCHgY-MRH2-jwR7fyDkRMv4idQvbYVRYrNtDrB_mD7QfsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <00eb01ccc236$dcbe18d0$05000100@tababook>

> wearing specs. "Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses," and
> crap like that.

    I do find it to be sexy :) I love glasses-wearing girls ;)


From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 07:20:33 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:20:33 +0000
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
In-Reply-To: <00eb01ccc236$dcbe18d0$05000100@tababook>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CALfYgtmS0nmRL6yhjpO2310f9SOVfYOx0K8gQP_X+P-Be2t=Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <024d01ccc1c3$09557240$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCHgY-MRH2-jwR7fyDkRMv4idQvbYVRYrNtDrB_mD7QfsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00eb01ccc236$dcbe18d0$05000100@tababook>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEKFUPgnNr9S7DL_Zf+SLnZ_6eJ-dL7W7i+2c3UiMm12A@mail.gmail.com>

On 24 December 2011 12:22, Alexandre Souza - Listas
<pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> wearing specs. "Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses," and
>> crap like that.
>
>
> ? I do find it to be sexy :) I love glasses-wearing girls ;)

I agree! :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 24 09:05:43 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:05:43 -0500
Subject: Need PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 - Re: Anyone have a case or memory
 for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <4EF5EA47.8060405@telegraphics.com.au>

On 24/12/11 2:52 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 01:07:46 -0200
> "Alexandre Souza - Listas"<pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory
> No. The HP9000/7xx SIMMs look, smell, taste like PeeCee RAM, but they
> are different. You need the very special, propriatary HP9000 SIMMs for
> that machine.
>
> BTW: I know where half a dozend 712/64 with 128 MB or 256 MB RAM and
> HCRX24 are sitting in a shelf. They will hit the dumpster some time
> next year. We are trying to get rid of them for qite some time.
> Maybe I'll try to sell them at the VCFe flea market... again...
> If you want one: Come and get it. Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany.

I need a power supply for an HP Apollo 735/125. What are the chances 
somebody on this list has one parted out? :/

--Toby


From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 09:38:36 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 15:38:36 +0000
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
Message-ID: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>

We on IRC want to know how rare/what this is

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-like-no-other-unique-/150724230097


Although the salesmanship is depressingly common!

Dave Caroline


From james at slor.net  Sat Dec 24 09:55:51 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:55:51 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
Message-ID: <008501ccc254$84039350$8c0ab9f0$@slor.net>

> > AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory
> No. The HP9000/7xx SIMMs look, smell, taste like PeeCee RAM, but they are
> different. You need the very special, propriatary HP9000 SIMMs for that
> machine.

Sounds like I'll be disappointed when my eBay purchase shows up.

> 
> BTW: I know where half a dozend 712/64 with 128 MB or 256 MB RAM and
> HCRX24 are sitting in a shelf. They will hit the dumpster some time next
year.
> We are trying to get rid of them for qite some time.
> Maybe I'll try to sell them at the VCFe flea market... again...
> If you want one: Come and get it. Location: Kaiserslautern, Germany.

Drop me a line directly if you'd consider shipping some RAM and/or an
unbroken case to the USA.

thanks



From james at slor.net  Sat Dec 24 09:58:13 2011
From: james at slor.net (James)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 10:58:13 -0500
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <008601ccc254$d8300990$88901cb0$@slor.net>

> We on IRC want to know how rare/what this is
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-like-no-other-unique-/150724230097
> 

Judging by the picture, there's likely also someone buried alive just meters
from the storage building, and the computer being used for the ransom
demands is completely untraceable...




From lbickley at bickleywest.com  Sat Dec 24 10:37:04 2011
From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:37:04 -0800
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
References: <4EF3CB0F.9000304@bitsavers.org>
Message-ID: <201112240837.04549.lbickley@bickleywest.com>

On Thursday 22 December 2011, Al Kossow wrote:
> J David Bryan organized the contents of the tapes that I've read over the past ten years.
> The software is available for non-commercial use under an agreement between CHM and HP.
> A huge thank you to Mr. Bryan for doing this, since I haven't had the time to organize it.
> There are over 75,000 files, around 2gb. It should be finished uploading later tonight.
> 
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection

This is terrific!!! Simply incredible. My 21xx systems (incl. HP1000s) will be VERY happy!

A huge thanks to J David Bryan and Al (and HP) for this!!!

Cheers,
Lyle

-- 
Lyle Bickley, AF6WS
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 12:14:35 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:14:35 -0500
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGWroy7y-EkWTRuhHCjgcZDD-3dQj_SkMjGw+EdSj2i-gg@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 10:38 AM, Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com
> wrote:

> We on IRC want to know how rare/what this is
>
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-like-no-other-unique-/150724230097
>
>
> Although the salesmanship is depressingly common!


Amazing how lazy people are at selling things. Half of the local Craigslist
ads for computer hardware usually read "Dell computer, four years old,
includes software, runs good, $300"


From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Sat Dec 24 12:24:42 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 12:24:42 -0600
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <037101ccc1c2$d3dd3e90$6400a8c0@tababook>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>
 <4EF4745F.20442.7C667F@cclist.sydex.com>
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231425240.8577@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <037101ccc1c2$d3dd3e90$6400a8c0@tababook>
Message-ID: <4EF618EA.1050604@tx.rr.com>

On 12/23/2011 4:32 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
>> No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
>> on the Sydex homepage. :)|
>
> BTW, was this page made in 1987? :o)
>

CSS???  We don't need no steenking CSS!  ;-)

-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Sat Dec 24 12:48:22 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:48:22 -0500
Subject: OT: Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks for cheap on ebay)
In-Reply-To: <00eb01ccc236$dcbe18d0$05000100@tababook>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CALfYgtmS0nmRL6yhjpO2310f9SOVfYOx0K8gQP_X+P-Be2t=Yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <024d01ccc1c3$09557240$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <CAMTenCHgY-MRH2-jwR7fyDkRMv4idQvbYVRYrNtDrB_mD7QfsA@mail.gmail.com>
 <00eb01ccc236$dcbe18d0$050 00100@tababook>
Message-ID: <56AC5272-E38E-4D6B-A6CB-581DD3EFC293@neurotica.com>

On Dec 24, 2011, at 7:22 AM, "Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:
>> wearing specs. "Men don't make passes at girls who wear glasses," and
>> crap like that.
> 
>   I do find it to be sexy :) I love glasses-wearing girls ;)

  Ohhhh yes, same here. :)

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 12:45:01 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 18:45:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Need PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 - Re: Anyone have a case or memory
In-Reply-To: <4EF5EA47.8060405@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Dec
 24, 11 10:05:43 am
Message-ID: <m1ReWag-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> I need a power supply for an HP Apollo 735/125. What are the chances 
> somebody on this list has one parted out? :/

I shall ask the obvious question : Do you have the old, defective PSU?

If you do, it's very possible that it could be repaired.

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 12:27:25 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 18:27:25 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <4EF5295A.3060008@jwsss.com> from "jim s" at Dec 23,
 11 05:22:34 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReWJb-000J48C@p850ug1>

> > That's excellent too (and probably of more practical use, there being
> > more HP1000s around than machines that can run MTS). I must take a look.

> most pc's and even PDA's will be able to run MTS as soon as they work 

I am darn sure none of my PCs can. And I am absolutley shrue I don't have 
a PDA that could run it. And actually, why would I want to? 

> thru the sources.  There has been a lot of work put into that, and it is 
> good the release has finally come through.

Sure

> 
> I have an HP-1000 of the iron type, and would love to run the soft 
> type.  There are usually so many fewer problems with exploding old power 
> supply caps with software emulations, and the software is actually the 
> final payoff anyway.

I disagree with both of those asseritons... In reverse order : 

You may be interested i nthe software rather than the hardware, but I can 
assue you that's not universal. I am interested in fixxing nad running 
the real hardwere. This is very much a personal choice, and I am very 
happy to accept that everybody is in this hobby for different reasons. 

As regards the capcxtiros,  having heard of the problems of 'fake' 
capacitors on PC motherboards, and having seen the 'quality' of some 
modern electrolytics, I woudl think that a PC is more likely to have 
capacitor problems than a quality classic computer (and if nothing else, 
HP stuff from that time doesnt' have poor-qualtiy components in it). I've 
got many HP machines and instrum,ents here, some a lot older than any 
HP1000, and most are sitill on all their original capacitors. I think I 
had _one_ capacitor fail in an HP9810, and I changed a couple in my HP120 
CP/M machine because the results of them blowign their tops (and they 
were bulging) could have meant a new CRT. But that's about all. I do not 
understnad this witch-hunt on old capacitors. 

-tony


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 12:40:41 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 18:40:41 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <201112240148.UAA01497@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "Mouse"
 at Dec 23, 11 08:48:06 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReWWT-000J49C@p850ug1>

> >> SMPSU [...] the switching frequency (and if that's not well above
> >> mains frequency you've got a broken, or at least seriously weird,
> >> SMPSU...
> > I would be _very_ suprised if any SMPU was deisgned to switch at a
> > frequency lower than mains.
> 
> So would I - hence the "broken" possibility.  But I also know I don't

If an SMPSU ithat should be running at several 10's of kHz is actually 
running aobut 1000 times slower, you would know about it. By the chopper 
transisotrs hittlign the ceiling for a start. The transformer would 
certianly saturate, the drive currents would go sky-high. 

> know everything, and there just might be some SMPSU out there that
> switches at a frequency lower than mains for some bizarre reason.

OK, you might be right. It's _possible_ there's one (I certainly don't 
know everythign, and it's entirely possible somebody di do this for a 
special reason that none of us have thought of). 

However, 1 uF capcitror has  reactance of about 160k Ohms  at 1Hz
 (Xc = 1/(2*\pi*f*C). Use that as a blocking capacitor for a 10M Ohm 
input impedance DVM, and you would still detect the ripple at close ot 
the correct level. and if the ripple freqeuncy isd slower than 1Hz, you 
could see the needle flickering on an analogue voltmeter ;-). 

> (Maybe it does FM instead of PWM to control the output voltage, and
> under low-to-zero load the switching frequency ratchets way back?)

I don;t think any supply would get a slow as that. And in any case, we've 
put a dummy load on it, right?

> 
> >> or something unusual for mains power; ISTR something somewhere that
> >> had a mains power frequency in the kHz, or at least hundreds of
> >> Hz....)
> > IIIRC, power line losses increas with frequency, so this would be
> > unusual to say the least.
> 
> I think it was something that, like a boat or airplane, is not part of
> the large-scale power grid but which does have enough of a power
> distribution system for it to be fair to call it "mains".

Aircraft supplies are often 400Hz since that leads to smaller/ligher 
power trnasformers running direectly off the supply, as was done before 
the common use of SMPSUs. 

> > But if you are serious enough about electronics to want to do
> > soemthing like that, you are also serious enough to want to get a
> > 'scope I think.
> 
> In general, I would agree.  The scenario I had in mind was less the
> "let's build the tools I'm going to use routinely" one and more the
> "okay, I'm stuck here with minimal equipment and parts, what can I
> improvise to find out the information I want?" one.

Sure. What I would do in my workshop (where I have decent test gear) is 
differnet to what I'd do at a remote site (given only the instrueltns I'd 
brought with me). Whether I would build an active filte would also depend 
on waht components I had available (which depends on whether there would 
be time to do an order to Farnell, say, whether there's a local 
electroncis shop (or company stores) that at least has common R's and C's 
and op-amps, or whether I have to manage with what I've got or could 
'borrow' fro mother parts of the device).

However, I think the OP was planning on doing this repair at home, and 
that time weas ntot too critical. In which case I think my comment 
applies that while you can produce workarounds (and while it's certainly 
good to understnad enough to think up said methods), a 'scope would 
probalhy be a sensible thing to obtain if you anre going to take 
electronics that seriously.

-tony


From dm561 at torfree.net  Sat Dec 24 13:18:55 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 14:18:55 -0500
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
References: <mailman.1.1324749606.74653.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <89D3108C76104B9AB7F6109C5856832D@vl420mt>

---------Original message:

Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:52:32 +0100
From: Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 01:07:46 -0200
"Alexandre Souza - Listas" <pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com> wrote:

>> AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory

> No. The HP9000/7xx SIMMs look, smell, taste like PeeCee RAM, but they are
> different. You need the very special, propriatary HP9000 SIMMs for that
> machine.

Sometimes you just have to cut a trace or two and/or add a jumper or two;
for example here's how to convert a standard SIMM for use in an HP LJ:

www.keycruncher.com/blog/2003/12/14/making-standard-simm-s-work-memory-upgrade-on-the-hp-laserjet-6mp-5mp

I did the same sort of mod to use standard SIMMs to expand memory in my
Toshiba T3100e.



From ajp166 at verizon.net  Sat Dec 24 13:35:10 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 14:35:10 -0500
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <m1ReWWT-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <m1ReWWT-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EF6296E.3070205@verizon.net>

On 12/24/2011 01:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>>> SMPSU [...] the switching frequency (and if that's not well above
>>>> mains frequency you've got a broken, or at least seriously weird,
>>>> SMPSU...
>>> I would be _very_ suprised if any SMPU was deisgned to switch at a
>>> frequency lower than mains.
>> So would I - hence the "broken" possibility.  But I also know I don't
> If an SMPSU ithat should be running at several 10's of kHz is actually
> running aobut 1000 times slower, you would know about it. By the chopper
> transisotrs hittlign the ceiling for a start. The transformer would
> certianly saturate, the drive currents would go sky-high.
>

If it's lower than the mains it's running in shutdown mode where it 
tries to start
and then shuts down.  As a result it sounds like a very slow click.

The likely reason for that is NO LOAD, most older switchers have to be 
loaded
to about 10% of total load to start and run correctly.  The other fault 
could be
overload where the load is a short of other fault.  If those things are 
ok then
the issue is likely SMPSU internall issue with startup, regulation or 
other failure.

FYIL DEC H780 SMPSU and those of that ear had the most annoying mid audio
range (6-12khz) scream.  They didn't switch at much more than 10khz.


>> know everything, and there just might be some SMPSU out there that
>> switches at a frequency lower than mains for some bizarre reason.
> OK, you might be right. It's _possible_ there's one (I certainly don't
> know everythign, and it's entirely possible somebody di do this for a
> special reason that none of us have thought of).
>
> However, 1 uF capcitror has  reactance of about 160k Ohms  at 1Hz
>   (Xc = 1/(2*\pi*f*C). Use that as a blocking capacitor for a 10M Ohm
> input impedance DVM, and you would still detect the ripple at close ot
> the correct level. and if the ripple freqeuncy isd slower than 1Hz, you
> could see the needle flickering on an analogue voltmeter ;-).
>
>> (Maybe it does FM instead of PWM to control the output voltage, and
>> under low-to-zero load the switching frequency ratchets way back?)
> I don;t think any supply would get a slow as that. And in any case, we've
> put a dummy load on it, right?
>
>>>> or something unusual for mains power; ISTR something somewhere that
>>>> had a mains power frequency in the kHz, or at least hundreds of
>>>> Hz....)
>>> IIIRC, power line losses increas with frequency, so this would be
>>> unusual to say the least.
>> I think it was something that, like a boat or airplane, is not part of
>> the large-scale power grid but which does have enough of a power
>> distribution system for it to be fair to call it "mains".
> Aircraft supplies are often 400Hz since that leads to smaller/ligher
> power trnasformers running direectly off the supply, as was done before
> the common use of SMPSUs.
>

Not always, many are 14V or 28V DC and run linear or even switch mode 
power supplies.
The older tube radios used vibrators and dynamotors for the nigh 
voltages neeeded.

Most large aircraft have DC buses as well as 400hz (where present).


Allison

>>> But if you are serious enough about electronics to want to do
>>> soemthing like that, you are also serious enough to want to get a
>>> 'scope I think.
>> In general, I would agree.  The scenario I had in mind was less the
>> "let's build the tools I'm going to use routinely" one and more the
>> "okay, I'm stuck here with minimal equipment and parts, what can I
>> improvise to find out the information I want?" one.
> Sure. What I would do in my workshop (where I have decent test gear) is
> differnet to what I'd do at a remote site (given only the instrueltns I'd
> brought with me). Whether I would build an active filte would also depend
> on waht components I had available (which depends on whether there would
> be time to do an order to Farnell, say, whether there's a local
> electroncis shop (or company stores) that at least has common R's and C's
> and op-amps, or whether I have to manage with what I've got or could
> 'borrow' fro mother parts of the device).
>
> However, I think the OP was planning on doing this repair at home, and
> that time weas ntot too critical. In which case I think my comment
> applies that while you can produce workarounds (and while it's certainly
> good to understnad enough to think up said methods), a 'scope would
> probalhy be a sensible thing to obtain if you anre going to take
> electronics that seriously.
>
> -tony
>



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 14:51:58 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:51:58 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <4EF6296E.3070205@verizon.net> from "allison" at Dec 24,
 11 02:35:10 pm
Message-ID: <m1ReYZX-000J43C@p850ug1>

> If it's lower than the mains it's running in shutdown mode where it 
> tries to start
> and then shuts down.  As a result it sounds like a very slow click.

With some SMPSUs you get a burst of oscillations driving the chopper (at 
the normal switching freqeuncy) for each click.

> 
> The likely reason for that is NO LOAD, most older switchers have to be 
> loaded
> to about 10% of total load to start and run correctly.  The other fault 
> could be
> overload where the load is a short of other fault.  If those things are 

In many cases, the reason why the PSU shuts down with no load is that you 
get a spike on the output which causes the crowbar to fire, effectively 
short-circuitng the supply. It then shuts down and tries again.

_Never_ disable the crowbar or overcurrent protection circuits in any PSU 
unless you really know what you are doing. The results caan be exxpensive 
an unpleasat. I rememrbr disabling the overcurrent protection in a DEC 
H754 -15V regulator brick (which is a switching regualtor, of course), 
only for find that the crowbar was firing. WIthout the overcurrent 
proteciton, I ended up with most of the transsitors dead (several of them 
blown off the board), resistors burnt out, the 723 useless, and so on. 
Yes, I did get it going again...

-tony



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Sat Dec 24 15:32:31 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:32:31 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>, 
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231444390.9379@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111224132023.F44006@shell.lmi.net>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> 1)  Can I use my PC with Windows 7 64-bit and a USB floppy drive?
> 2)  I found a floppy drive on Craigslist, how do I hook it to my
> laptop so I can use your software?
> 3)  I ordered 22Disk from you people and it won't read my Brother
> typewriter floppies.
> 4)  Is MS-DOS the same as Windows?

. . . and the "What option do I select to read Apple][ diskettes?  I KNOW
that it can be done, because they both turn at 300RPM." hasn't stopped,
either.

"After I copy my diskettes, can I return it and get my money back?"

"I copied the files, but something is wrong with your program; Office 2014
won't open them!"


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 15:44:16 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 21:44:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Merry Newtonsday
Message-ID: <m1ReZO7-000J43C@p850ug1>

Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Winter Solstice, Yule, and anything else you 
chose to celebrate [1] to members of this list and their families. I hope 
you have a pleasant holiday and still maange to get some classic 
computing done.

[1] And Halloween for those of you who can't remember if you're missing 2 
fingers.

-tony



From spectre at floodgap.com  Sat Dec 24 16:05:04 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 14:05:04 -0800 (PST)
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <4EF618EA.1050604@tx.rr.com> from Charlie Carothers at "Dec 24,
 11 12:24:42 pm"
Message-ID: <201112242205.pBOM544B012796@floodgap.com>

> CSS???  We don't need no steenking CSS!  ;-)

I don't generally use CSS on most of my info pages, even now. It's
unnecessary to simply informing someone.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words -


From cclist at sydex.com  Sat Dec 24 16:34:43 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 14:34:43 -0800
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <20111224132023.F44006@shell.lmi.net>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111224132023.F44006@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EF5E303.24972.F95940@cclist.sydex.com>

On 24 Dec 2011 at 13:32, Fred Cisin wrote:

> "I copied the files, but something is wrong with your program; Office
> 2014 won't open them!"

Or the one that taught me to limit free support to nonpaying callers:

"Thanks, I've got what I need, so I won't be buying your product."

So offering the service instead of the product is the way to go.  
Customers are happier and delighted that you even copied that Mac 
400K floppy stuck in a pile of NEC Bungo floppies.

--Chuck





From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 24 19:28:29 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:28:29 -0500
Subject: Need PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 - Re: Anyone have a case or memory
In-Reply-To: <m1ReWag-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <m1ReWag-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EF67C3D.2060101@telegraphics.com.au>

On 24/12/11 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> I need a power supply for an HP Apollo 735/125. What are the chances
>> somebody on this list has one parted out? :/
>
> I shall ask the obvious question : Do you have the old, defective PSU?
>
> If you do, it's very possible that it could be repaired.

Yes, I do. But no schematic. Apparently the soft power logic on these is 
a bit quirky...

--Toby

>
> -tony
>



From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Dec 24 21:42:44 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:42:44 -0700
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w at mail.gmail.com>,
    Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes:

> I also have a VXT 2000+.

How is this different from VT1300?  I have one of those, but hadn't
heard of the VXT 2000 until today.

X terminals, like terminals, are getting hard to find these days.

PEX terminals are *very* rare.  If anyone would like to donate one to
the computer graphics history museum, I'd love to have one :-)
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Dec 24 21:46:04 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:46:04 -0700
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Ref2C-0001Ia-Ee@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA at mail.gmail.com>,
    Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> writes:

> We on IRC want to know how rare/what this is
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-like-no-other-unique-/150724230097

The box on the left looks like it might have Data General styling, but
I'm no expert there.  There clearly is a brand name on the left box
with the 8" floppy drive.

The monitor/keyboard combination looks to be a serial terminal for the
system but I don't recognize the keyboard layout or key coloring.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From pcw at mesanet.com  Sat Dec 24 21:55:34 2011
From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 19:55:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011, Richard wrote:

> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:42:44 -0700
> From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com>
> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?
> 
>
> In article <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w at mail.gmail.com>,
>    Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I also have a VXT 2000+.
>
> How is this different from VT1300?  I have one of those, but hadn't
> heard of the VXT 2000 until today.


IICRC, the VXT2000 is a small pizza box Xterm only system, while the vt1300 is 
just a VAXStation 3100 with no SCSI card.

>
> X terminals, like terminals, are getting hard to find these days.
>
> PEX terminals are *very* rare.  If anyone would like to donate one to
> the computer graphics history museum, I'd love to have one :-)
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
> <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
>
>      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
>

Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



From innfoclassics at gmail.com  Sat Dec 24 22:44:04 2011
From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:44:04 -0800
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>

> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Computer-like-no-other-unique-/150724230097


I wrote the guy asking for more information.

I had a couple of these go through my hands in the mid-early 1990s. I
believe I sold them to a person in Texas who did support for the line.

ISTR they were an early 8 bit business system and ran a proprietary
OS. However I have been racking my brain for the name.

I also think the seller is suspicious. The last feedback was 2007 and
had never sold anything, only bought, so I would be surprised if I got
an answer.

Pax

-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA


From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Sun Dec 25 00:28:18 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:28:18 -0600
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231444390.9379@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <4EF6C282.2050600@tx.rr.com>

On 12/23/2011 6:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
<snip>
>
> Now, if someone can help to design a web page for me that addresses
> that aspect, I'd be grateful.  I might even show my gratitude.  I am
> NOT a visually-oriented person--most flashy web sites are horrible
> muddles to me.
>
> Thanks,
> Chuck
>
I couldn't agree more about the flashy web sites.  I just looked at an 
"improved" web site this week that belongs to a friend of mine, and all 
the new animation that had been added almost made me dizzy.

BTW, I certainly hope you don't take my feeble attempt at humor re. CSS 
earlier as a criticism of your web site.  Actually, I find clean, 
relatively simple sites very appealing.  For one example, why would one 
ever fundamentally change Craigslist?  Yes, it's all or mostly text, but 
it certainly gets the job done.  (I'm afraid my weak attempts at humor 
have gotten me in a bit of trouble in the past...)
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!


From cclist at sydex.com  Sun Dec 25 01:12:48 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 23:12:48 -0800
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
In-Reply-To: <4EF6C282.2050600@tx.rr.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EF6C282.2050600@tx.rr.com>
Message-ID: <4EF65C70.30077.2D3AB85@cclist.sydex.com>

On 25 Dec 2011 at 0:28, Charlie Carothers wrote:

> BTW, I certainly hope you don't take my feeble attempt at humor re.
> CSS earlier as a criticism of your web site.  Actually, I find clean,
> relatively simple sites very appealing.  For one example, why would
> one ever fundamentally change Craigslist?  Yes, it's all or mostly
> text, but it certainly gets the job done.  (I'm afraid my weak
> attempts at humor have gotten me in a bit of trouble in the past...)

Nah, I'm just miserable with visual stuff.  I can code HTML pretty 
well, but I just don't know what appeals to the eye.

At least I don't have a flashy site with a bunch of 404 links.  I 
seem to be running into a lot of those lately.

Nor do I know if it would do any good.

Merry Happy Season!
Chuck



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Sun Dec 25 02:16:15 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 03:16:15 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CSS [was Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes]
In-Reply-To: <4EF65C70.30077.2D3AB85@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>, <4EF6C282.2050600@tx.rr.com>
 <4EF65C70.30077.2D3AB85@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <201112250816.DAA28989@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Actually, I find clean, relatively simple sites very appealing.

Personally, I have nothing against CSS.  (Actually, not quite nothing;
it's a waste of perfectly good bandwidth, but usually to a minor extent
at worst.)  What I do find horrid is pages that do not fall back
gracefully when the CSS, images, embedded Flash, and the like get
ignored and everything's rendered as text.  I use lynx, y'see.

> Nah, I'm just miserable with visual stuff.  I can code HTML pretty
> well, but I just don't know what appeals to the eye.

That's not surprising, because "what appeals to the eye" is
ill-defined, unless you are talking about a particular viewer.  (Or
group of viewers, which, if sufficiently similar, can cut the
ill-definedness down to the point where it vanishes for practical
purposes.)  Many of the things that enhance usability in general - or
at least appear to be widely believed to do so - severely cripple
usability for me.  For example, I will not tolerate dark-on-light for
routine text; large areas of bright are anathema to me.  But, even on
the rare occasions when I use Firefox (which I do every once in a
while, at work), it's the depressingly rare page that actually renders
decently with background overridden to black and foreground overridden
to white.

The _real_ problem with CSS, though, is that it's on the wrong end of
the HTTP link.  Content providers should not be presentation imposers.

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sun Dec 25 02:40:58 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:40:58 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Need PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 - Re: Anyone have a case or memory
In-Reply-To: <4EF67C3D.2060101@telegraphics.com.au> from "Toby Thain" at Dec
 24, 11 08:28:29 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rejdj-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> On 24/12/11 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> >> I need a power supply for an HP Apollo 735/125. What are the chances
> >> somebody on this list has one parted out? :/
> >
> > I shall ask the obvious question : Do you have the old, defective PSU?
> >
> > If you do, it's very possible that it could be repaired.
> 
> Yes, I do. But no schematic. Apparently the soft power logic on these is 
> a bit quirky...

Now I'll admit I've never seen one, but I cna't believe it's impossible 
to figure out how it works, given enough time. But maybe that's more time 
than you want to spend on it...

I asusme it's giving no outputs at all. Have you checked the obvious 
things, such as the input rectifiers, chopper transistors, etc?

-tony



From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com  Sun Dec 25 03:17:35 2011
From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:17:35 +0100
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <BAY155-ds212BF141C2D02E9C014FA486A90@phx.gbl>

From: "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 4:55 AM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?

> On Sat, 24 Dec 2011, Richard wrote:
>
>> Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 20:42:44 -0700
>> From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com>
>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> To: cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?
>>
>> In article 
>> <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w at mail.gmail.com>,
>>    Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> I also have a VXT 2000+.
>>
>> How is this different from VT1300?  I have one of those, but hadn't
>> heard of the VXT 2000 until today.
>
>
> IICRC, the VXT2000 is a small pizza box Xterm only system, while the 
> vt1300 is just a VAXStation 3100 with no SCSI card.
>
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics

Yeah, I once had a VXT2000, but had no use for it ... DOH!
It is nowaday somewhere in Spain, IIRC.
The dimensions were sort of a square box, each side (guessing) some 40 cm.
The height of the box was just about 5 cm.
I can't remember the connections, besides the 230 VAC 3-pin "kettle" socket.

- Henk. 



From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Sun Dec 25 07:05:52 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:05:52 +0100
Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide
Message-ID: <CACStewZJYrb831Gtt4cvCXUQz+wetqqFpTGZfrmuohOoZyQ+ZA@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

Regarding the above topic from November this year, I was wondering if
the mentioned guide (EK-MIC11-SG-001) was indeed uploaded to bitsavers
eventually? If so, where can I find it?

regards,

Sander Reiche

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From colineby at isallthat.com  Sun Dec 25 09:16:44 2011
From: colineby at isallthat.com (Colin Eby)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 15:16:44 +0000
Subject: HP 1000 software collection
In-Reply-To: <m1ReWJb-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1ReWJb-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <f5cc0054-5b44-4041-ba80-d1e0c1bed879@email.android.com>

I'd like to add my congratulations and thanks. The 2116 restoration we're working on for display will benefit greatly from not having to run only the poor fortran dogerel I'd be able to come up with. Great stuff!
-- Colin

ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:

> > That's excellent too (and probably of more practical use, there being
> > more HP1000s around than machines that can run MTS). I must take a look.

> most pc's and even PDA's will be able to run MTS as soon as they work 

I am darn sure none of my PCs can. And I am absolutley shrue I don't have 
a PDA that could run it. And actually, why would I want to? 

> thru the sources. There has been a lot of work put into that, and it is 
> good the release has finally come through.

Sure

> 
> I have an HP-1000 of the iron type, and would love to run the soft 
> type. There are usually so many fewer problems with exploding old power 
> supply caps with software emulations, and the software is actually the 
> final payoff anyway.

I disagree with both of those asseritons... In reverse order : 

You may be interested i nthe software rather than the hardware, but I can 
assue you that's not universal. I am interested in fixxing nad running 
the real hardwere. This is very much a personal choice, and I am very 
happy to accept that everybody is in this hobby for different reasons. 

As regards the capcxtiros, having heard of the problems of 'fake' 
capacitors on PC motherboards, and having seen the 'quality' of some 
modern electrolytics, I woudl think that a PC is more likely to have 
capacitor problems than a quality classic computer (and if nothing else, 
HP stuff from that time doesnt' have poor-qualtiy components in it). I've 
got many HP machines and instrum,ents here, some a lot older than any 
HP1000, and most are sitill on all their original capacitors. I think I 
had _one_ capacitor fail in an HP9810, and I changed a couple in my HP120 
CP/M machine because the results of them blowign their tops (and they 
were bulging) could have meant a new CRT. But that's about all. I do not 
understnad this witch-hunt on old capacitors. 

-tony



From arcarlini at iee.org  Sun Dec 25 09:51:26 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 15:51:26 -0000
Subject: Looking for a copy of MicroPDP-11 Systems Maintenance Guide
In-Reply-To: <CACStewZJYrb831Gtt4cvCXUQz+wetqqFpTGZfrmuohOoZyQ+ZA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <B8D33B3D65F548CCB22B96B4A875AE44@ANTONIOPC>

> 
> Regarding the above topic from November this year, I was 
> wondering if the mentioned guide (EK-MIC11-SG-001) was indeed 
> uploaded to bitsavers eventually? If so, where can I find it?

Not sure if it is on bitsavers, but (thanks to Richard) it is on new
manx:

http://manx.classiccmp.org/mirror/antonio/ek-mic11-sg-001.pdf

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org



From emu at e-bbes.com  Sun Dec 25 09:52:42 2011
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:52:42 -0700
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>

On 2011-12-24 20:55, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> IICRC, the VXT2000 is a small pizza box Xterm only system, while the
> vt1300 is just a VAXStation 3100 with no SCSI card.

IIRC, vt1300, vxt2000 and 4000/vlc were all pretty much the same size.
the vt1300 was tms34010 based, vxt2000 & vlc vaxen.


From pcw at mesanet.com  Sun Dec 25 10:25:55 2011
From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:25:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, emanuel stiebler wrote:

> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:52:42 -0700
> From: emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com>
> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> To: General Discussion:  On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>     ;
> Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?
> 
> On 2011-12-24 20:55, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>> IICRC, the VXT2000 is a small pizza box Xterm only system, while the
>> vt1300 is just a VAXStation 3100 with no SCSI card.
>
> IIRC, vt1300, vxt2000 and 4000/vlc were all pretty much the same size.
> the vt1300 was tms34010 based, vxt2000 & vlc vaxen.
>
Pretty sure the VT1200 is TMS34010 based, the VT1300 is just rebadged 
VAXStation 3100



Peter Wallace
Mesa Electronics

(\__/)
(='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
(")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.



From holm at freibergnet.de  Sun Dec 25 11:38:45 2011
From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 18:38:45 +0100
Subject: S: schematics for russian I12 (MC4601) Interace Board
Message-ID: <20111225173845.GA90108@pegasus.freiberg-net.de>

searching schematics od russian PDP-11 Interface I12
Reply-To: holm at freibergnet.de
Organization:       FreibergNet Internet Services, TSHT
Priority:           normal
X-Phone:            +49-3731-74222
X-Mobile:           +49-172-8790741
X-Fax:              +49-3731-74200

Hope you all had a merry christmas with and santa bought nice things?

Guys Im searching for the schematics of the russian I12 (MC4601) Interface
board for their metric PDP11 Q-Bus machines.
This card is something like an MXV11 w/o the memory, just 2 SLUs on this board.

I have such a board here that must be repaired and I want to look to the
schematics to steel parts of them for my K1801VM2 SBC...

Can someone help please?

I konw, that the shematics where postet on the russian narod.ru site but
the link is dead now...

Kind Regards,

Holm
-- 
      Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, 
     Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583
  www.tsht.de, info at tsht.de, Fax +49 3731 74200, Mobil: 0172 8790 741



From emu at e-bbes.com  Sun Dec 25 11:56:55 2011
From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:56:55 -0700
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <4EF763E7.3080002@e-bbes.com>

On 2011-12-25 09:25, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
> On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, emanuel stiebler wrote:

>> IIRC, vt1300, vxt2000 and 4000/vlc were all pretty much the same size.
>> the vt1300 was tms34010 based, vxt2000 & vlc vaxen.
>>
> Pretty sure the VT1200 is TMS34010 based, the VT1300 is just rebadged
> VAXStation 3100

Oh, OK, I didn't think of the vt1200. I knew one had the tms34010 in it, 
so probably I mixed it up. And to much snow between me and the barn to 
check ;-)


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sun Dec 25 12:53:38 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:53:38 -0500
Subject: Need PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 - Re: Anyone have a case or memory
In-Reply-To: <m1Rejdj-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rejdj-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EF77132.90802@telegraphics.com.au>

On 25/12/11 3:40 AM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>> On 24/12/11 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>>> I need a power supply for an HP Apollo 735/125. What are the chances
>>>> somebody on this list has one parted out? :/
>>>
>>> I shall ask the obvious question : Do you have the old, defective PSU?
>>>
>>> If you do, it's very possible that it could be repaired.
>>
>> Yes, I do. But no schematic. Apparently the soft power logic on these is
>> a bit quirky...
>
> Now I'll admit I've never seen one, but I cna't believe it's impossible
> to figure out how it works, given enough time. But maybe that's more time
> than you want to spend on it...
>
> I asusme it's giving no outputs at all. Have you checked the obvious
> things, such as the input rectifiers, chopper transistors, etc?
>

I don't have the skills or equipment to troubleshoot it myself. I'd be 
relying on the kindness of strangers. My ex-boss (a real EE) had a look 
but ended up putting it in the too hard basket. With a schematic, he 
might have had a chance...

--T


> -tony
>
>



From sttaylor at charter.net  Sun Dec 25 14:31:59 2011
From: sttaylor at charter.net (ST Taylor_Charter)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 12:31:59 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF7883F.2050600@charter.net>

Glen,

Thank you very much for making these documents available to me.
I've been trying to get a copy of the SC/MP Kit manual for some time now.
Having you go out of your way to do this for me is such an expeditious 
manner mean a great deal to me.

Please have a Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year.

Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/22/2011 5:15 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 19, 2011 at 4:11 PM, ST Taylor_Charter<sttaylor at charter.net>  wrote:
>> Glen,
>>
>> Looks like nobody has a copy of the Original Document they can spare.
>> So, would you please scan to PDF both the Users Manual and the Retrofit Kit
>> Manual
>>
> Grab copies of the scans here while these links are still good.  Feel
> free to host on bitsavers if there aren't any better quality copies
> available.
>
>
> SC/MP Kit Users Manual
> Publication Number 4200113A
> March 1976
>
> 4200113A.pdf, 12MB
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=1xTw49h3kxcZoyOSNqlTXeliexaauo6wuyuUtwko7jlQmhZPu7JStJuhNjeXR
>
>
> SC/MP-II Microprocessor Retrofit Kit Users Manual
> Publication Number 420305365-001A
> January 1997
>
> 420305365-001A.pdf, 14MB
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8Vwo-hnhVM5NjRlMzJkYzMtNGUxNi00NDM2LWE5MmItNmFmMGNiYjg0ZThm



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Sun Dec 25 16:44:28 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:44:28 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <4EF7883F.2050600@charter.net>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EF7883F.2050600@charter.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOw+K8zuASq2r5qAN0WSug60m_hjOE-dDXHCzo-4Vj8vbYg@mail.gmail.com>

Steve, it wasn't too much work. Not as bad as scanning the SDK-51 manuals
with my manual feed flatbed scanner.

What is your interest in this? Do you have a board without the manual? I
have the manuals without a board. It probably wouldn't be too much work to
wire up an equivalent board from scratch.

-Glen


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Mon Dec 26 07:29:37 2011
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 08:29:37 -0500
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
Message-ID: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>

Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 07:35:27 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 14:35:27 +0100
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
In-Reply-To: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
References: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CACStewZ7FYWdrCNFs4JEhWE2U-Gdbk4+Go2t6mBCVZYf+qgamw@mail.gmail.com>

Heh. It is a bit slow here today indeed :)

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive



-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From mokuba at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 07:37:37 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 08:37:37 -0500
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
In-Reply-To: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
References: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh7yQeHTr=HtBdFozh3_xoBAzia1gG8Tzn0Q5Rw6PgSpHw@mail.gmail.com>

Yup, just mute ;)
On Dec 26, 2011 8:34 AM, "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:

> Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
>


From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 07:39:39 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 14:39:39 +0100
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
In-Reply-To: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
References: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi9ZqzkfTf8oGETbG=0PZGujHthY94zUibCDD14jL-qJBA@mail.gmail.com>

It is alive as usual ...
Am 26.12.2011 14:34 schrieb "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to>:

> Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
>


From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 07:42:10 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 13:42:10 +0000
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
In-Reply-To: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
References: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <CALfYgt=aGS=kff-o7RaS5+XwA4qau21CrbUKYXhZkkYN227saw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
> Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive

He's dead Jim


Dave


From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Mon Dec 26 09:46:16 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:46:16 -0500
Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing
In-Reply-To: <fe4e2c4a-d965-4271-91b7-2c2577c6bdec@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
References: <fe4e2c4a-d965-4271-91b7-2c2577c6bdec@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
Message-ID: <00e901ccc3e5$9d532220$d7f96660$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi,

Good news on the S-100 8086 CPU board.  

First confirmed working installation "in the field" AFAIK.

If we've gotten this far, I think demonstrating a working CP/M-86 will be
along shortly.

John already has CP/M-86+ running in the lab.

http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board
.htm

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

-----Original Message-----
From: n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem-s100 at googlegroups.com] On
Behalf Of Elsid
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2011 5:43 AM
To: N8VEM-S100
Subject: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing

Hi and Seasons Greatings.
All the best to everyone and their families.

I've just completed my S-100 8086 board.
See photos at:
http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=8086
Everything went smoothly except a missing K8 jumper 1-2 gave me some grief
for a while.
I have a V30 CPU and a 24MHz oscillator (8MHz clock) without any problems.
I'll try  10MHz next when I get a crystal.
Next step is to get CPM86 and MSDOS going.
Thanks for another great board John and Andrew.

Leon



From mokuba at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 09:51:31 2011
From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:51:31 -0500
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgt=aGS=kff-o7RaS5+XwA4qau21CrbUKYXhZkkYN227saw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
 <CALfYgt=aGS=kff-o7RaS5+XwA4qau21CrbUKYXhZkkYN227saw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAH5WRh5k_0VHu8sRYDWRMnYqUF6vcsz6f0-Bg6VKgo0m5SYvQA@mail.gmail.com>

It's as alive as my imaginary PDP-8 is.... ;)
On Dec 26, 2011 9:00 AM, "Dave Caroline" <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2011 at 1:29 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to>
> wrote:
> > Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
>
> He's dead Jim
>
>
> Dave
>


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 09:57:36 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:57:36 +0100
Subject: Imaging a TK50 across the network
Message-ID: <CACStewbL6dVHVN-btwCdU49qD0npZWWYpYmzsqswsyZxNE0m_A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi all,

It is probably asked before, but I can't seem to find it in the archives.
I have a MicroPDP up & running 2.11BSD but no spare TK50 tapes to make
a backup of it, before I f*ck it all up :)
I do have a lot of TK50s which weren't mine and they have data on it
of which I do not know the status. They came with a MV3100 with VMS on
it, which I am going to use eventually as well. So I'm not really
willing to just scrap the data on those tapes. I'd like to make a
backup-image of those across the LAN before I write anything else on
it.

How do you guys usually do it?
# tcopy /dev/rmt0
to see what's on it
# dd if=/dev/rmt0 bs=??? | rsh
other_current_bsdmachine_with_lots_of_diskspace -l <user> dd
of=vms_tape_file?.img bs=???
for every file on there?

I didn't even know `dd' wouldn't cross EOF boundaries tbh (wasted my
youth on C64s and Amigas :)).

-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From aek at bitsavers.org  Mon Dec 26 10:19:50 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 08:19:50 -0800
Subject: Imaging a TK50 across the network
In-Reply-To: <CACStewbL6dVHVN-btwCdU49qD0npZWWYpYmzsqswsyZxNE0m_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACStewbL6dVHVN-btwCdU49qD0npZWWYpYmzsqswsyZxNE0m_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EF89EA6.6060206@bitsavers.org>

On 12/26/11 7:57 AM, Sander Reiche wrote:

> How do you guys usually do it?
>

I use a program that generates SIMH .tap images on a Linux box with
a SCSI TZ30. The TZ30 is pretty easy to disassemble to clean the heads,
which WILL foul attempting to read TK50 tapes. At this point, most
of these tapes have become sticky, and you are unlikely to be able to
read them without having the tape stick to the head when the tape
direction reverses.

I took a quick look and there are TZ30's on eBay.
One particularly "interesting" "refurbished" one is
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350417605846



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 10:29:01 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 11:29:01 -0500
Subject: Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive
In-Reply-To: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
References: <4EF876C1.6060400@compsys.to>
Message-ID: <C72D470C-30FF-4EA3-9AF9-37EA697A89E7@gmail.com>

On Dec 26, 2011, at 8:29, "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:

> Test Message - Just to see if Classiccmp is alive

Just sleeping off the egg nog. :-)


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Mon Dec 26 11:24:00 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 12:24:00 -0500
Subject: Need PSU for HP Apollo 735/125 - Re: Anyone have a case or memory
In-Reply-To: <m1ReWag-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <m1ReWag-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EF8ADB0.1060901@telegraphics.com.au>

On 24/12/11 1:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>> I need a power supply for an HP Apollo 735/125. What are the chances
>> somebody on this list has one parted out? :/
>
> I shall ask the obvious question : Do you have the old, defective PSU?
>
> If you do, it's very possible that it could be repaired.

Of course I'd pay something for such a repair. I think with a schematic 
in hand, I could get it done for around $100 here.

--Toby

>
> -tony
>



From g-wright at att.net  Mon Dec 26 12:35:40 2011
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 10:35:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Software wish list
Message-ID: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>



Hi, All   I'm back at the grind trying to find a few old OS's  The first is for 
my TEK  DPO  (WP 1210 Digital processing 

scope )  this is a 7704a scope with a  P7001  Digital 
processor that connects to a DEC PDP 11/05 .  It runs on 
TEK Basic (8" floppy or  DEC tape}.. The official  name is "TEK SPS Basic  V02"  
There is also a system test 

disk. This uses a  TEK  4010  Terminal  for a display. 
The second is a   Pertec  Mini ??   coax system  4010  
Don't know much about it other than it used coax to the
dumb terminals instead of  Serial..  (1/4 "  Tape)  The third is a OMS Zues 4   
I beleive it ran cpm or mpm 

 (5 1/4 disk)  The forth is a Tek 4051. looking for the Tape images. 

The fifth is a Tek 4404 computer.   Looking for the disks
(5 1/4 floppy)

 I can handle most image files.  Or  would gladly pay for
 a Disk or tape. If I missed somewhere online, point me 
in the right direction  Thanks, for reading this  Jerry  Jerry Wright JLC inc 
g-wright at att.net  

From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Mon Dec 26 14:21:55 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 20:21:55 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Tandata TD1100 dialer
Message-ID: <m1RfH3W-000J48C@p850ug1>

It took me a lot of work to discover this information, and I am not sure 
why it's so cryptic. But anyway...

Some time ago I mentioned I had a Tandata TD1100 viewdata set on the 
bench. At power-on you get a dialing menu, the numbers for which are 
clearly stored in the battery-backed RAM. Dialing a number from the menu 
was easy (<menu number>#,  for example 2#). But I could not find out how 
to stroe numbers in the menu, everything I tried got 'Please Try Again'.

I am not suprised I didn't find the right sequesnce by trial and error. 
It is clearly designed to be impossible to get by accident. I fianlly 
found it by readign otu the firmware ROM (it is socketed, but I can 
assure you that desolderign a 24 pin DIL chip would have been trivial 
compared to the rest of it), writing a quick-and-dirty disassmbler for 
6502 code (soemthing that took me most of yesterday (Newtonsday) 
afternoon [1]), and then going through the lisitng. 

[1] This would ahev been a lot easier if the 6502 data sheet I'd been 
workign from handn't been written by a boatie. There's a nice 16*16 table 
of the nmemonics, the rows and columns being numbered from 0-F. It turns 
out that the _rows_ are the most significant nybble, in other words you 
read it across, not down. The lables indicating this are in tiny type in 
one corner, and I missed them. So I had to move my table of mnemonics 
aroudn a bit. ARGH!

My first guess, which turned out to be correct, is that it would use CMP 
instructions to identify wheter a typed character was 'acceptable' or 
not. So I searched the listing for these, and found a sequence of CMPs 
which seemed to do the right thing. I then spent some time figuring out 
what that routine does, and I finally got the sequence to load a number 
into the dialer menu. It is : 

Turn on 'program mode' with the switch on the back first and type : 

<menu position>*****<Number to dial>#

For exxaple 2*****123456# will store 123456 into the second position of 
the menu. Note that it's 5 '*'s. No fewer (or you get an error), no more 
(or you get spaces at the start of the number in the menu.

If you do not turn on program mode, the entry is ignroed -- no error 
message. 

-tony



From legalize at xmission.com  Mon Dec 26 14:44:43 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 13:44:43 -0700
Subject: Software wish list
In-Reply-To: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1RfHPX-0003bt-N6@shell.xmission.com>


In article <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC at web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>,
    Jerry Wright <g-wright at att.net> writes:

> The forth is a Tek 4051. looking for the Tape images. 
 
There is no OS for the 4051; it has basic in ROM and a 6800 that can
be programmed in assembly with ROM cartridges.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 26 15:07:40 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 13:07:40 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Software wish list
In-Reply-To: <E1RfHPX-0003bt-N6@shell.xmission.com>
References: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <E1RfHPX-0003bt-N6@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <20111226130604.G26479@shell.lmi.net>

> > The forth is a Tek 4051. looking for the Tape images.
> There is no OS for the 4051; it has basic in ROM and a 6800 that can
> be programmed in assembly with ROM cartridges.

Is there a Forth ROM cartridge for it?

(Is the the fourth time that has been asked?)



From snhirsch at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 15:41:29 2011
From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:41:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: QPro-4 for CP/M-80?
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112261640280.2480@duo>

I had this years ago and found only the manuals in my archives.  Does 
anyone have the diskettes or images for this program?

I found an MS-DOS version on the web, but turned up nothing for CP/M.

Steve


-- 



From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Mon Dec 26 16:10:02 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:10:02 -0600
Subject: Tandata TD1100 dialer
In-Reply-To: <m1RfH3W-000J48C@p850ug1>
References: <m1RfH3W-000J48C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EF8F0BA.9050907@tx.rr.com>

On 12/26/2011 2:21 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
> It took me a lot of work to discover this information, and I am not sure
> why it's so cryptic. But anyway...
>
> Some time ago I mentioned I had a Tandata TD1100 viewdata set on the
> bench. At power-on you get a dialing menu, the numbers for which are
> clearly stored in the battery-backed RAM. Dialing a number from the menu
> was easy (<menu number>#,  for example 2#). But I could not find out how
> to stroe numbers in the menu, everything I tried got 'Please Try Again'.
>
> I am not suprised I didn't find the right sequesnce by trial and error.
> It is clearly designed to be impossible to get by accident. I fianlly
> found it by readign otu the firmware ROM (it is socketed, but I can
> assure you that desolderign a 24 pin DIL chip would have been trivial
> compared to the rest of it), writing a quick-and-dirty disassmbler for
> 6502 code (soemthing that took me most of yesterday (Newtonsday)
> afternoon [1]), and then going through the lisitng.
>
> [1] This would ahev been a lot easier if the 6502 data sheet I'd been
> workign from handn't been written by a boatie. There's a nice 16*16 table
> of the nmemonics, the rows and columns being numbered from 0-F. It turns
> out that the _rows_ are the most significant nybble, in other words you
> read it across, not down. The lables indicating this are in tiny type in
> one corner, and I missed them. So I had to move my table of mnemonics
> aroudn a bit. ARGH!
>
> My first guess, which turned out to be correct, is that it would use CMP
> instructions to identify wheter a typed character was 'acceptable' or
> not. So I searched the listing for these, and found a sequence of CMPs
> which seemed to do the right thing. I then spent some time figuring out
> what that routine does, and I finally got the sequence to load a number
> into the dialer menu. It is :
>
> Turn on 'program mode' with the switch on the back first and type :
>
> <menu position>*****<Number to dial>#
>
> For exxaple 2*****123456# will store 123456 into the second position of
> the menu. Note that it's 5 '*'s. No fewer (or you get an error), no more
> (or you get spaces at the start of the number in the menu.
>
> If you do not turn on program mode, the entry is ignroed -- no error
> message.
>
> -tony
>
>
That is some great detective work, congratulations!

I sort of collect idioms, both from the USA and elsewhere, so if you 
don't mind my asking what is your definition of a "boatie"?  (I did 
search for the definition a good bit, but I doubt anything I found 
matches your intent.)
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!

Freedom is in dire danger any time the US congress is in session...
Want to fix the post office? How about a "do not mail" list!



From jeff.ogden at umich.edu  Sat Dec 24 17:06:19 2011
From: jeff.ogden at umich.edu (Jeff Ogden)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 18:06:19 -0500
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
Message-ID: <C22A22DF-E7B4-4021-A9A2-2A0E429465FB@umich.edu>

On Thu 22 Dec 2011 at 19:00:26 CST, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Very cool!  I have a set of MTS-related manuals from 1979, would they be 
> of any interest to you for archival purposes, assuming you don't already 
> have copies?
> 
> (They are:  "Digital Computing, FORTRAN IV, WATFIV, and MTS (with *FTN 
> and *WATFIV)"  Parts 1 & 2 by Brice Carnahan and James O. Wilkes.)
> 
> - Josh


Al might like a copy to scan for the PDF archive at Bitsavers, but he can speak for himself.

Scanned versions of the Caranahan and Wilkes book and a number of others related to 
the Michigan Terminal System (MTS) are already available online in the Hathi Trust Digital 
Library:

   http://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/mb?a=listis;c=1889583521 

A more limited set of PDF documents that doesn't include the Caranahan and Wilkes book is available from U-M's Deep Blue digital archive and the PDF Archive at Bitsavers:

   http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/handle/2027.42/79570 

   http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/univOfMichigan/

The MTS PDFs in Deep Blue and at Bitsavers tend to be of a higher quality since they aren't scans of physical books.

  -Jeff











From jeff.ogden at umich.edu  Sat Dec 24 17:30:15 2011
From: jeff.ogden at umich.edu (Jeff Ogden)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 18:30:15 -0500
Subject: Michigan Timesharing System
Message-ID: <1D368812-7695-423D-9930-BCE1C5A547AB@umich.edu>

On Fri, 23 Dec 2011 at 05:35:58 CST, Christian Corti wrote:
> That's great!
> Is there anywhere a list of supported hardware? I'm not very comfortable 
> with the idea of simulator-only software.  I'd be interested to try it 
> some day on our 4331.

MTS should work on a 4331.

>From the MTS Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan_Terminal_System#Hardware_used):

In theory MTS will run on the IBM S/360-67, any of the IBM S/370 series, and its successors. MTS has been 
run on the following computers in production, benchmarking, or trial configurations:

		? IBM: S/360-67, S/370-148, S/370-168, 3033U, 4341, 4361, 4381, 3081D, 3081GX, 
                          3083B, 3090-200, 3090-400, 3090-600, and ES/9000-720
		? Amdahl: 470V/6, 470V/7, 470V/8, 5860, 5870, 5990
		? Hitachi: NAS 9060
		? Various S/370 emulators

All of the information that follows is included in the tar.gz archives available at Bitsavers.org. The D6.0 
documentation has also been combined in a single PDF that is available on the MTS Archive at: 
   http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/documentation/documents/MTSD6Doc-April1988.pdf 

Among other things the file D6.0-MTS-DOC.txt from April 1987 (a year prior to the release of D6.0) says:

MTS  is currently being run on the following computing systems:  Amdahl  5860,  
5870,  470V/8,  IBM 3090-400  (with vector facility), 3081G, 3081D, 3033N, and 4361. 
In addition MTS has been tested on or was used for production on the following 
machines: Amdahl 470V/6, 470V/7, 5890, IBM  3033U, 370/148, 370/168, 370/158, 
4341, and NAS 9060, and XL.

The same file goes on to say:

Machine Requirements

MTS requires an IBM 370 compatible machine  (including  the 30xx  machines)  with  at  
least two megabytes of memory and the following features:

       Floating Point
       Universal Instruction Set
       CPU-timer and Clock-Comparator
       Translation with 1M segments and 4K pages
       Conditional-Swapping
       PSW-Key-Handling
       Channel Indirect Addressing on all channels
       Clear I/O on all channels

It  will  make  use  of  the  following  features  if  they  are available:

       Extended precision floating point
       Vector facility
       Direct control (limited use)
       Branch and Save
       Fast release on channels
       Invalidate Page Table Entry
       Common Segment Facility

Other  features  are  not used, unless user programs make use of
   them.  

The MTS file system normally  uses  IBM  3330  and/or  3350
   compatible  disks  in  any combination although it also supports
   older types of disks.  

MTS also provides support for the Xerox 9700 page  printer,
   the  Autologic  APS-5 phototypesetter, and for both IBM and ANSI
   standard magnetic tape labeling/blocking and the normal IBM unit
   record equipment.

>From D6.0-NEWSYS.txt:

1.   The starter system requires a minimum of one 3270 terminal,
        one 3380 disk drive, and  one  9-track  tape  drive.

>From the D6.0-NOTES.txt:

   MTS  can  run under the 370 and 370-XA architectures.  Under 370-XA, each
   task is limited to an address space of sixteen megabytes,  but  all  real
   storage on the machine will be used to support virtual storage.  MTS does
   not (yet) run run under IBM's ESA-370 architecture.

   MTS   provides   Named  Address  spaces,  a  facility  similar  to  IBM's
   Discontiguous Saved Segment support under VM, to  allow  tasks  to  share
   preloaded  programs  and  data.   A  program  may  be loaded into a Named
   Address Space (or NAS) at system IPL-time and then added  to  or  deleted
   from a task's virtual storage as needed.

   MTS  will  use  expanded  storage  as a high-speed cache to minimize I/O to
   DASDI.  The cache is store-through; all writes go  immediately  to  disk.
   However, disk reads will be satisfied from the cache if possible, thereby
   cutting down the number of real disk I operations required.

   Changed  DASDI  [in D6.0] to use "Read Device Characteristics" command to 
   determine the size of the disk being formated.  This gives us support for any  disk
   supporting this command including:
        3380s  (Ds  and  Es have been tested; Js and Ks should work but have
        never been tested)
        CMS minidisks (untested)
   The old FBA disk support has been rejuvenated.

   MTS now supports internal 9370 disks (9335s have been tested; we have not
   tested 9332 support).




From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Sat Dec 24 20:38:54 2011
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Sat, 24 Dec 2011 21:38:54 -0500
Subject: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
References: <006201ccc1a3$426977e0$c73c67a0$@it>,
 <4EF49168.19022.EDD560@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112231444390.9379@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4EF4AA63.23363.14F6748@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111224132023.F44006@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <3844BBD48DEA4545BEC16F5A237DC13D@OptiplexGX620>

I feel your pain...

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes


> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>> 1)  Can I use my PC with Windows 7 64-bit and a USB floppy drive?
>> 2)  I found a floppy drive on Craigslist, how do I hook it to my
>> laptop so I can use your software?
>> 3)  I ordered 22Disk from you people and it won't read my Brother
>> typewriter floppies.
>> 4)  Is MS-DOS the same as Windows?
>
> . . . and the "What option do I select to read Apple][ diskettes?  I KNOW
> that it can be done, because they both turn at 300RPM." hasn't stopped,
> either.
>
> "After I copy my diskettes, can I return it and get my money back?"
>
> "I copied the files, but something is wrong with your program; Office 2014
> won't open them!"
> 



From kspt.tor at gmail.com  Sun Dec 25 06:47:34 2011
From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 13:47:34 +0100
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks
In-Reply-To: <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CANJYbi8bhZC09KhbvStFK1_B9k8ggssZ5p_k+bz2_Q8PpoDbvw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com>
 <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <CAL1Jhhw7gDfPUq0NtYLQp=QR6Ro=nc=JdRUnz4JUS9YCW1P3Sw@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 22:30, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Andrew Burton wrote:
>> Going OT, but there have been studies about colour. For example, IIRC, blue
>
> Gotta URL?

Look up 'melatonin' and blue light via the Famous Web Search Engine
and there's lots of stuff. One is here:
http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/bluelightandmelatonin.htm
and there are others, but it's maybe a good idea to not only read the
popular-press versions.. it's more complicated than that. There are a
number of studies which show that it's not as easy as 'see some blue
light = your nocturnal period is disrupted' as would be the conclusion
from the popular press articles. This paper
http://www.mendeley.com/research/indirect-blue-light-does-not-suppress-nocturnal-salivary-melatonin-in-humans-in-an-automobile-setting/
says something about that, and the papers it refers also seem to (from
a casual glance) to say that it's not as simple as 'blue=awake'.
The interesting thing though is the discovery that there are indeed
blue-sensitive receptors in the eye which are independent of the other
three receptors and is only about detecting the existence of bluish
light, and its purpose seems to about resetting/syncing the bodyclock
cycle.

-Tor


From jonas at otter.se  Sun Dec 25 09:59:29 2011
From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 16:59:29 +0100
Subject: unknown machine
In-Reply-To: <mailman.15.1324718879.1045.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.15.1324718879.1045.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4EF74861.5040905@otter.se>


or something unusual for mains power; ISTR something somewhere that
>>  had a mains power frequency in the kHz, or at least hundreds of
>>  Hz....)

>> >  IIIRC, power line losses increas with frequency, so this would be
>> >  unusual to say the least.
> I think it was something that, like a boat or airplane, is not part of
> the large-scale power grid but which does have enough of a power
> distribution system for it to be fair to call it "mains".
>
> But that memory is pretty fuzzy; I could be just plain misremembering.
>
Planes use 400 Hz. US Navy ships seem to use 450 and 120V 400 Hz for 
electronics and weapons systems and servicing aircraft. Presumably any 
other country's aircraft carriers also provide 400Hz power for the aircraft.

/Jonas


From elazzerini at interfree.it  Mon Dec 26 10:09:00 2011
From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 17:09:00 +0100
Subject: CP/M: How to use old dischette? 
Message-ID: <005c01ccc3e8$ae4de030$0ae9a090$@it>

Hi all,
The reason why I'm interested in this topic is that I recently restored a
Ferguson Bigboard I with its CP/M 60K. 

I'd like to try different programs that are contained in third parts
diskettes, but they are of course in a different formats.
I am using ANADISK to identify the format and sequence of sectors on disks
and 22disk133 to try to read them correctly.
Despite having read the definitions of the FCB manual on CP / M, I am
finding difficulty in :
1) to determine the block size chosen for different disks;
2) Identify the value AL0
Unfortunately it seems that any further calculation is dependent on the size
of the block that would seem a prior undetectable, and i'd need to try
different values (starting from 1024,2048,4096 and 8192). Is it in this way?


Some format i'd like to determinate:

A xerox SWP diskette: SSDD 9,1024 sectors sequence 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
A MK-83 diskette: DSDD 8,1024 sectors sequence 1,4,7,2,5,8,3,6

Thanks for any helpful hint.
Enrico - Pisa - Italy



From alex at cheltscum.co.uk  Sat Dec 24 18:32:20 2011
From: alex at cheltscum.co.uk (Alex Melt)
Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 00:32:20 +0000
Subject: Merry Newtonsday
Message-ID: <lgwwsfwh99a4i3o5vrq3vk90.1324773140284@email.android.com>

Merry Christmas tony. May all you capacitors be within tolerance. 

ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote:

>Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Winter Solstice, Yule, and anything else you 
>chose to celebrate [1] to members of this list and their families. I hope 
>you have a pleasant holiday and still maange to get some classic 
>computing done.
>
>[1] And Halloween for those of you who can't remember if you're missing 2 
>fingers.
>
>-tony
>



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Mon Dec 26 17:29:53 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 15:29:53 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP/M: How to use old dischette? 
In-Reply-To: <005c01ccc3e8$ae4de030$0ae9a090$@it>
References: <005c01ccc3e8$ae4de030$0ae9a090$@it>
Message-ID: <20111226151235.M26479@shell.lmi.net>

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
> Despite having read the definitions of the FCB manual on CP / M, I am
> finding difficulty in :
> 1) to determine the block size chosen for different disks;

Find a file directory entry that has only one extent (not strictly
necessary, but takes out some complications), for a file larger than a
few K.  Determine the file size (stored as number of 128 byte rcords in
byte 15)
Look at the last 16 bytes of the directory entry, and count how many
entries there are (how many blocks).  On a format with less than 256
blocks on the disk, each block number occupies one byte.  On a format with
more than 256 blocks on the disk, each block number occupies 2 bytes (and
therefore every other byte of the block list is likely to be 00 until the
disk gets mostly full)



From glen.slick at gmail.com  Mon Dec 26 19:10:02 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 17:10:02 -0800
Subject: Anyone have a case or memory for an HP 9000 712/60
In-Reply-To: <008501ccc254$84039350$8c0ab9f0$@slor.net>
References: <004e01ccc11c$f461d8c0$dd258a40$@slor.net>
 <002f01ccc120$108c5bd0$6400a8c0@tababook>
 <20111224085232.35264459.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>
 <008501ccc254$84039350$8c0ab9f0$@slor.net>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwJ1RbD7734FSwxhAEdaLoDFByHAiRb1Sh1ex-T43t7_PQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 24, 2011 at 7:55 AM, James <james at slor.net> wrote:
>> > AFAIK, the 712 uses common 486 (simm-72) memory
>> No. The HP9000/7xx SIMMs look, smell, taste like PeeCee RAM, but they are
>> different. You need the very special, propriatary HP9000 SIMMs for that
>> machine.
>
> Sounds like I'll be disappointed when my eBay purchase shows up.
>

I was just looking at one of my 712/60's to see what the part number
is on the DRAM modules.  It is A2575-60001 on the 32MB modules.

If you haven't already found a cheaper source, here's the cheapest I
found on a quick look today:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/150636102804
HP A2575-60001 2x32MB SIMM Memory HP9000 E35
P/N: A2575-60001
Two (2) 32MB ECC 72-pin Simms 4K refresh
$18.95 free shipping

Or max out your 712/60 with 128MB for less than $40.


From g-wright at att.net  Tue Dec 27 01:24:57 2011
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Mon, 26 Dec 2011 23:24:57 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Software wish list
In-Reply-To: <E1RfHPX-0003bt-N6@shell.xmission.com>
References: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <E1RfHPX-0003bt-N6@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <1324970697.24911.YahooMailRC@web83810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>






________________________________
    Jerry Wright <g-wright at att.net> writes:

> The forth is a Tek 4051. looking for the Tape images. 

There is no OS for the 4051; it has basic in ROM and a 6800 that can
be programmed in assembly with ROM cartridges.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

I understand the built in Basic in the 4051 and the floppy has a bunch of
 Rom's in it also with it's own 6800. 

 This came with tapes for testing the  optional Floppy and  tapes 
called "Plot 50 software".  I have 3 copies but can't get anything 
to read them including the 4051.  

The biggest thing with the plot 50 software in the 4051 does not test anything
during Boot.   There is software on the tape to test the Rom, Memory, tape 
and IO.
      
The manual says the later machines do test some things on Boot.  (4052 and up)

- Jerry

From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de  Tue Dec 27 06:11:02 2011
From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:11:02 +0100
Subject: Imaging a TK50 across the network
In-Reply-To: <CACStewbL6dVHVN-btwCdU49qD0npZWWYpYmzsqswsyZxNE0m_A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACStewbL6dVHVN-btwCdU49qD0npZWWYpYmzsqswsyZxNE0m_A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20111227131102.b1217b32.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de>

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 16:57:36 +0100
Sander Reiche <sander.reiche at gmail.com> wrote:

> How do you guys usually do it?
Don't do it at all. Some months ago I tried to write a TK50 using a
TZ30. It was a mess. All tapes suffered from the the sticky tape
problem. If you try it, you will ruin the tape. :-(
-- 


\end{Jochen}

\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}



From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 06:13:51 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:13:51 -0200
Subject: Merry Newtonsday
References: <lgwwsfwh99a4i3o5vrq3vk90.1324773140284@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <0b1501ccc491$1e027000$05000100@tababook>

>>Merry Newtonsday, Christmas, Winter Solstice, Yule, and anything else you
>>chose to celebrate [1] to members of this list and their families. I hope
>>you have a pleasant holiday and still maange to get some classic
>>computing done.

    For me, it is "merry slavework day" :o( 



From hp-fix at xs4all.nl  Tue Dec 27 06:58:27 2011
From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:58:27 +0100
Subject: FS: HP-85 + HP9121 and more
Message-ID: <002e01ccc497$3d24a7e0$b76df7a0$@xs4all.nl>

Before I put it on the auction site.

 

I've for sale a HP-85 with a QIC40/80 modified tape drive including: 

ROM drawer with :

1 Matrix ROM

1 Mass Storage ROM

1 Input/Output ROM

1 Printer/Plotter ROM

1 Advance programming ROM

16 K RAM module

HP-IB module

HP 9121 double 3.5 disc drive

2 QIC40/80 tapes (1 empty, 1 containing the Standard software)

2 3.5 inch disc's (NOS)

1 Carrying box (brown skai)

If necessary a complete manual set on CD/DVD

 

It is a complete set for who wants to start with the HP-85.

I acquired the HP-85 a few weeks ago checked it and converted the tape drive
to QIC40/80 replaced the printer timing belts and some elco's.

The computer is clean but a bit yellowed, the HP 9121 drive is cleaned and
all hardened grease is removed so it is fully functional. 

I'm open for offers, the items are located in the Netherlands but I ship
worldwide, local pickup is also possible.

I'm not doing this to get big money but I want to earn a little to acquire
other HP-stuff for my collection and find it fun to restore old HP
equipment.

Please react off-list at hp-fix_at_xs4all_dot_nl

 

-Rik

 



From rborsuk at colourfull.com  Tue Dec 27 09:26:16 2011
From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:26:16 -0500
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4BC0ABEC-499B-4083-987E-EC592C302B65@colourfull.com>


On Dec 22, 2011, at 8:15 PM, Glen Slick wrote:

> 
> Grab copies of the scans here while these links are still good.  Feel
> free to host on bitsavers if there aren't any better quality copies
> available.


Thanks for sharing Glen.

Rob


Robert Borsuk
rborsuk at colourfull.com

Colourfull Creations
http://www.colourfull.com





From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk  Tue Dec 27 07:45:44 2011
From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:45:44 -0000
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAH5WRh5T8P4v-LyNOkMvQG-qu6jhX8_Qfi+77EfDjf=Y8b_0VQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com> <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAL1Jhhw7gDfPUq0NtYLQp=QR6Ro=nc=JdRUnz4JUS9YCW1P3Sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <006101ccc4ad$1cc439f0$d4695b0a@user8459cef6fa>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tor Arntsen" <kspt.tor at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks


> On Fri, Dec 23, 2011 at 22:30, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Andrew Burton wrote:
> >> Going OT, but there have been studies about colour. For example, IIRC,
blue
> >
> > Gotta URL?
>
> Look up 'melatonin' and blue light via the Famous Web Search Engine
> and there's lots of stuff. One is here:
> http://www.denvernaturopathic.com/bluelightandmelatonin.htm
> and there are others, but it's maybe a good idea to not only read the
> popular-press versions.. it's more complicated than that. There are a
> number of studies which show that it's not as easy as 'see some blue
> light = your nocturnal period is disrupted' as would be the conclusion
> from the popular press articles. This paper
>
http://www.mendeley.com/research/indirect-blue-light-does-not-suppress-nocturnal-salivary-melatonin-in-humans-in-an-automobile-setting/
> says something about that, and the papers it refers also seem to (from
> a casual glance) to say that it's not as simple as 'blue=awake'.
> The interesting thing though is the discovery that there are indeed
> blue-sensitive receptors in the eye which are independent of the other
> three receptors and is only about detecting the existence of bluish
> light, and its purpose seems to about resetting/syncing the bodyclock
> cycle.
>
> -Tor

Thanks for the links. I was going to post some, but had to wait until the
Christmas celebrations had finished (e.g. everything had gone back to normal
here). I'll see if I can find some links for the program I watched too
though.


Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk




From innfoclassics at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 10:50:51 2011
From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:50:51 -0600
Subject: Software wish list
In-Reply-To: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAL2B=mG1Y38_FGtRJyGSrmpPWH1XpQFV6=63LTsLR4fC6yZqbQ@mail.gmail.com>

> The fifth is a Tek 4404 computer. ? Looking for the disks
> (5 1/4 floppy)


Jerry,

I think I have the original Tek disks for this. I am a little loath to
loan them out till they are imaged.

At the moment I am in Mexico at the dentist and will return the end of
January. Send me a private message at the end of January and I will
see what I have and what we can arrange.

I would like to get my 4404 running also.

Nice to hear from you,
Paxton
-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA



From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec 27 11:39:16 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:39:16 -0700
Subject: Software wish list
In-Reply-To: <1324970697.24911.YahooMailRC@web83810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1324924540.98830.YahooMailRC@web83813.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
 <E1RfHPX-0003bt-N6@shell.xmission.com>
 <1324970697.24911.YahooMailRC@web83810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E1Rfazc-0007Ph-7K@shell.xmission.com>


In article <1324970697.24911.YahooMailRC at web83810.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>,
    Jerry Wright <g-wright at att.net> writes:

> I understand the built in Basic in the 4051 and the floppy has a bunch of
>  Rom's in it also with it's own 6800. 

I have a 4051 and a 4052.  I *might* have some cartridge software for
them somewhere.  However, I'm not aware of how to image the cartridges
and make them available.  It's a hardware project on my list, but I
haven't gotten that far yet.

It's more likely that I'll be able to dump PROMs/ROMs before I can
dump these cartridges.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Tue Dec 27 12:11:20 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 10:11:20 -0800 (PST)
Subject: OT: Colors and Colours, perception of (was Re: rl02 disks
In-Reply-To: <006101ccc4ad$1cc439f0$d4695b0a@user8459cef6fa>
References: <CAA3rs21EKGzNBwRng4f_xPfnsDL=_j6R315ESJTJV2iS7TEqow@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs23gGVfM87JZ5-89F9ZES2ujuus0XGME0_8bNtvBWkso2Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs20PEUJ_=PFNhW0--N=OF75yHSb2m-KKP60WwWuBW-1BMQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <C65ADCBA-2668-4C04-8671-5D9355E89B42@gmail.com> <4EEF8242.9040901@jwsss.com>
 <CAALmimmuWrSBKmPSQCMdGJunGcSHOKc_mygqikanyUChHOP=ZA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEF9481.4030807@jwsss.com> <4EEF9DB9.9020606@bitsavers.org>
 <CAALmimm4EoUDXOJjT+47A7ZDYPDDyCw0DM890JQpVDYcDPB8yg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds5FEF0D65AFC15A6C9530586A70@phx.gbl>
 <CAALmimkfmZONMa4sTTWXnd8heVgD3u8_QQ0m7eYHxkVBM3NEsg@mail.gmail.com>
 <BAY155-ds946517E17F9975A1FC5D786A40@phx.gbl>
 <4EF1A913.7040501@dunnington.plus.com>
 <4EF20FC1.9090903@neurotica.com>
 <012801ccc176$cc16a6c0$bd355d0a@user8459cef6fa>
 <20111223122607.M78940@shell.lmi.net>
 <CAL1Jhhw7gDfPUq0NtYLQp=QR6Ro=nc=JdRUnz4JUS9YCW1P3Sw@mail.gmail.com>
 <006101ccc4ad$1cc439f0$d4695b0a@user8459cef6fa>
Message-ID: <20111227100751.A69100@shell.lmi.net>

> number of studies which show that it's not as easy as 'see some blue
> light = your nocturnal period is disrupted' as would be the conclusion
> from the popular press articles. This paper

. . . and a simple experiment, . . .
if you see a driver of a car who seems to be drowsy and a bit out of it,
shining a flashing blue light in their back window will wake him up and
raise his heartrate!
(that might not be entirely due to "blue receptors")




From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Tue Dec 27 13:26:43 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 11:26:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing
In-Reply-To: <00e901ccc3e5$9d532220$d7f96660$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <fe4e2c4a-d965-4271-91b7-2c2577c6bdec@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
 <00e901ccc3e5$9d532220$d7f96660$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271126010.3991@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011, Andrew Lynch wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Good news on the S-100 8086 CPU board.
>
> First confirmed working installation "in the field" AFAIK.
>
> If we've gotten this far, I think demonstrating a working CP/M-86 will be
> along shortly.
>
> John already has CP/M-86+ running in the lab.
>
> http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%20CPU%20Board
> .htm

What are the possibilities of running DOS of some sort and a homebrewed 
VGA board?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Tue Dec 27 13:35:26 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:35:26 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Merry Newtonsday
In-Reply-To: <lgwwsfwh99a4i3o5vrq3vk90.1324773140284@email.android.com> from
 "Alex Melt" at Dec 25, 11 00:32:20 am
Message-ID: <m1RfcoB-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> Merry Christmas tony. May all you capacitors be within tolerance. 

Thank you. Alyhogh somewhat oddly for me, my antics on Newtonsday didn't 
really involve much hardware... On Newtonsday itself I figured out the 
mcirocode for the HP11305 disk controller, and on Boxing day I figured 
out the Tandata terminal. 

What? You didn't expect me to not do somethign with classic computers did 
you?

Back to hardware soon...

-tony


From lproven at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 14:42:54 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:42:54 +0000
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>

Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.

The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
expect most modern websites to work...

I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(

-- 
Liam Proven ? Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508



From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 14:59:49 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:59:49 -0500
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGUdL=4rpRoB7JP9eMXFk8BN61-5NxeKsjCVdN8=rMOBTw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 27, 2011 at 3:42 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
> vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>

I'd take one. It's the last PowerPC Macintosh - if nothing else it's
interesting for that. They have plenty of horsepower for running a server,
too. You could run FreeBSD or Debian on it, too.


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 15:08:31 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 13:08:31 -0800
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <p06240804cb1fe29c51c1@[192.168.1.199]>

Its usefulness depends on if you have Mac OS X 
software that will only run on PPC.  I know I 
loose a couple apps once I upgrade to 10.7, since 
10.7 doesn't have Rosetta (I can buy a new 
version of FileMaker, but I can't buy a new 
version of Eudora, though I've found a usable 
replacement).  From my standpoint something like 
a 9500 running System 7.6 would probably be more 
useful (I've been thinking seriously of seeing if 
my 8500/180 will still run).  My choice though 
comes from the fact I have software of that 
vintage I'd like to use that won't work on newer 
OS's (some doesn't work right on System 8), and 
one app that I require that started on System 7, 
and was usable through Mac OS X 10.4 (ClarisDraw).

My Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac made the choice for me, it's mostly dead.

Zane




At 8:42 PM +0000 12/27/11, Liam Proven wrote:
>Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
>vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>
>The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
>like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
>very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
>only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
>a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
>it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
>expect most modern websites to work...
>
>I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
>and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(
>
>--
>Liam Proven * Info & profile: http://www.google.com/profiles/lproven
>Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
>Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884 * Fax: + 44 870-9151419
>AIM/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven * MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * ICQ: 73187508


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |



From rogpugh at mac.com  Tue Dec 27 15:08:52 2011
From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:08:52 +0000
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFA33E4.1060108@mac.com>

On 12/27/2011 20:42, Liam Proven wrote:
> The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs.
Liam

If you have a G5 going spare i would be interested..  i need a media 
server and my G4 500 doesn't really cut it with iTune$ anymore..

Roger


From ajp166 at verizon.net  Tue Dec 27 15:13:55 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 16:13:55 -0500
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <4EFA3513.8080502@verizon.net>

On 12/27/2011 01:40 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
> Well this is all i know:
>
> 8"
>
> STAT d:DSK:
>
>
> 9600
>
> r:  128  Byte  Record  Capacity
>
>
Thats 1.28mb!  Not many system used that and some like DEC RX02, Intel 
MDS DD
were not MFM ( both were unique oddbal that most FDCs do not read).

> 1200
>
> k:  Kilobyte  Drive  Capacity
>
>
> 128
>
> d:  32  Byte  Directory  Entries
>
>
> 128
>
> c:  Checked  Directory  Entries
>
>
> 128
>
> e:  Records/  Extent
>
>
> 16
>
> b:  Records/  Block
>
>
> 64
>
> s:  Sectors/  Track
>
>

What format are you trying to achieve??   Looks vaguely like Morrow DD.

> 2
>
> t:  Reserved  'rracks
>
> 2
>
> SIDES
> 				
>
> This is that I calculate:
>
> BEGIN SCO2 (1024 bytes/sector) - DSDD 8"
>
>
> DENSITY MFM ,HIGH
>
>
> CYLINDERS 77 SIDES 1 SECTORS 8,1024
>
>
> SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
>
>
> SIDE2 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
>
Likely does not start with sector 0, that is unlikely due to the bit 
pattern and how DD controllers work.

Besides 0 though 9 enumerates 10 objects, not 8.

> ORDER CYLINDERS
>
>
> BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 3 DSM 599 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2
>
Looks about right.

There is no skew applied as you show it.

If skew is wrong reading the directory is impossible and you get trash 
if anything at all.

Allison
> END
>
>
>
> Here what 22disk tell me:
>
>
>
> http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg
>
>
>
> Where I'm wrong?
>
>
>
> Thanks for any suggestion.
>
> Enrico
>
>



From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 27 16:52:01 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 14:52:01 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGUdL=4rpRoB7JP9eMXFk8BN61-5NxeKsjCVdN8=rMOBTw@mail.gmail.com> from
 Jason McBrien at "Dec 27, 11 03:59:49 pm"
Message-ID: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>

> > Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
> > vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
> 
> I'd take one. It's the last PowerPC Macintosh -

Strictly speaking, the last Power Mac was the quad G5, which was a dual-CPU,
dual-core 2.5GHz machine (and my daily driver: I bought it new in 2006, just
shortly before the Intel transition was announced). Not only is it
collectable from that standpoint, it's also a not unreasonably beefy machine
even by current standards (and the beefiest you'll ever get that can run
Classic). Probably for this reason they still fetch as much as a grand on
the used market.

Meanwhile, TenFourFox evolves. I got the last bugs out of JavaScript JIT
type inference over Christmas, and there should be test builds up tonight
for those here who are interested (see the TenFourFox development blog).

I still think there is a lot of life in Power Macs. My two main desktop
machines and my main laptop are all PowerPC (G5, iMac G4 and late iBook G4).
I plan to get at least 10 years out of my quad, and I have a spare unit
identically configured, just in case.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Never trust a computer you can't lift. -- Mac rollout, 24 January 1984 -----


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 17:07:11 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:07:11 -0800
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>

At 2:52 PM -0800 12/27/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>I still think there is a lot of life in Power Macs. My two main desktop
>machines and my main laptop are all PowerPC (G5, iMac G4 and late iBook G4).
>I plan to get at least 10 years out of my quad, and I have a spare unit
>identically configured, just in case.

Depending on your requirements, that sounds reasonable.  I managed to 
get nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac, and I'm a 
heavy Photoshop user.  Granted I was ready to replace it at about 5 
years, but limped on for a couple more.  My primary problem was I 
needed more RAM (I had 7 of the 8Gb possible).  The hardware finally 
gave out on me (the onboard ethernet died about 3 years before the 
rest of the system).

Interestingly enough I now have a late-2010 8-core Mac Pro, and with 
only 6Gb of RAM, it was slower than the G5.  With 24Gb of RAM it's 
normally pretty speedy and I can't put a load on it, though I must 
confess I've started pricing what it will take to get to 48Gb.

Right now it's running Adobe Bridge, Photoshop, Lightroom, InDesign, 
and Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other 
things.  My performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk 
I/O.  Actually the main performance problem is these **** HD's that 
go to sleep on their own when not being used, and there doesn't seem 
to be a way to turn off that behavior!

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From sttaylor at charter.net  Tue Dec 27 17:19:46 2011
From: sttaylor at charter.net (ST Taylor_Charter)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:19:46 -0800
Subject: SC/MP kit PDF
In-Reply-To: <CAM2UOw+K8zuASq2r5qAN0WSug60m_hjOE-dDXHCzo-4Vj8vbYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EE918C2.8040509@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOwJ3+SaweP+Pysztb69WJkcVGcX6cptJz994hGkX-=2tPA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EEFD2B8.2070301@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOw+i2gLhHdE-GRbzFsrJp5kTExz7B=s1=83Mm9HhLMi5AQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EF7883F.2050600@charter.net>
 <CAM2UOw+K8zuASq2r5qAN0WSug60m_hjOE-dDXHCzo-4Vj8vbYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFA5292.50009@charter.net>

Glen,
I had 2 sets of kits but only 1 set of Documents.
The 1st set was a project for College in 1975. I gave that kit and a 
teletype to a neighbor kid (13 yr old) when I moved.
I kept the second kit and have been able to find several docs about the 
SC/MP Kit but not the original Kit Doc. I also found the Retrofit kit 
but no Docs for it.
The Original Kit document had a addendum that contained instructions for 
retrofitting the original 1 Mhz processor with the 2 Mhz.
Now thanks to you I have both missing Docs.

Steve

------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 12/25/2011 2:44 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
> Steve, it wasn't too much work. Not as bad as scanning the SDK-51 manuals
> with my manual feed flatbed scanner.
>
> What is your interest in this? Do you have a board without the manual? I
> have the manuals without a board. It probably wouldn't be too much work to
> wire up an equivalent board from scratch.
>
> -Glen



From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 27 17:24:11 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:24:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 "Dec 27, 11 03:07:11 pm"
Message-ID: <201112272324.pBRNOBWZ005502@floodgap.com>

> >I still think there is a lot of life in Power Macs. My two main desktop
> >machines and my main laptop are all PowerPC (G5, iMac G4 and late iBook G4).
> >I plan to get at least 10 years out of my quad, and I have a spare unit
> >identically configured, just in case.
> 
> Depending on your requirements, that sounds reasonable.  I managed to 
> get nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac, and I'm a 
> heavy Photoshop user.  Granted I was ready to replace it at about 5 
> years, but limped on for a couple more.  My primary problem was I 
> needed more RAM (I had 7 of the 8Gb possible).  The hardware finally 
> gave out on me (the onboard ethernet died about 3 years before the 
> rest of the system).

Really, for my purposes all I need is a current web browser (heheheh). I'm
pretty insulated against hardware failure and I keep cloned spares ready to
go just in case.

With 8GB of RAM, the quad runs Photoshop (7, because I hate product
activation), Final Cut Express HD, TenFourFox, Office v.X (I have 2008, but
v.X works just fine for my purposes), GarageBand and a smattering of Classic
apps including QuarkXPress 4 quite nicely. I stuck some Caviar Black drives
in it which yielded a minor but appreciated throughput increase, and I
usually run the system in Reduced mode to save power and wear and tear (a
convenient MenuExtra I found lets you flip to Automatic/Highest on the
fly without a trip to System Preferences, so I can turn on turbo only when
I need it).

My next "computer" will probably be an ARM netbook of some kind anyway; I
really don't need another desktop system since I have my own server room.
As long as I can get an xterm and a basic browser, I can run everything else
off the POWER6. But I'm doing fine on what I've got.

The only thing I don't like is because of Mozilla rapid release, I spend
way more time on TenFourFox than I'd like to. Classilla is getting neglected.

> I/O.  Actually the main performance problem is these **** HD's that 
> go to sleep on their own when not being used, and there doesn't seem 
> to be a way to turn off that behavior!

That is super annoying. Another win for old "stupid" hardware.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Architecture is the art of how to waste space. -- Philip Johnson -----------


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 27 18:25:45 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:25:45 -0500
Subject: WTB: PSU for dual 2.5GHz Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <4EFA6209.7060808@telegraphics.com.au>

On 27/12/11 6:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> At 2:52 PM -0800 12/27/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> I still think there is a lot of life in Power Macs. My two main desktop
>> machines and my main laptop are all PowerPC (G5, iMac G4 and late
>> iBook G4).
>> I plan to get at least 10 years out of my quad, and I have a spare unit
>> identically configured, just in case.
>
> Depending on your requirements, that sounds reasonable. I managed to get
> nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac, and I'm a heavy
> Photoshop user. Granted I was ready to replace it at about 5 years, but
> limped on for a couple more. My primary problem was I needed more RAM (I
> had 7 of the 8Gb possible). The hardware finally gave out on me (the
> onboard ethernet died about 3 years before the rest of the system).

I need a PSU for a dual 2.5GHz G5 (my main home machine). If somebody 
has one with other dead parts maybe they could sell me the PSU :)

>
> Interestingly enough I now have a late-2010 8-core Mac Pro, and with
> only 6Gb of RAM, it was slower than the G5....

I went with an 8 core Mac Pro to use at work (as is often the fashion 
nowadays, developers supply their own hardware). But really, a G4 or G5 
would be enough for what I do.

--Toby


From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 27 18:38:59 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:38:59 -0500
Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271126010.3991@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <fe4e2c4a-d965-4271-91b7-2c2577c6bdec@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
 <00e901ccc3e5$9d532220$d7f96660$@YAHOO.COM>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271126010.3991@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <001c01ccc4f9$196f3100$4c4d9300$@YAHOO.COM>

> -----Original Message-----
> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2011 2:27 PM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: FW: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing
> 
> On Mon, 26 Dec 2011, Andrew Lynch wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > Good news on the S-100 8086 CPU board.
> >
> > First confirmed working installation "in the field" AFAIK.
> >
> > If we've gotten this far, I think demonstrating a working CP/M-86 will
> > be along shortly.
> >
> > John already has CP/M-86+ running in the lab.
> >
> >
> http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/8086%20Board/8086%2
> 0CPU%2
> > 0Board
> > .htm
> 
> What are the possibilities of running DOS of some sort and a homebrewed
> VGA board?
> 
> --
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
> 

Hi Dave!  Thanks!  The possibilities are pretty good if you are patient.
John and I are developing two new boards to address this very issue.

The current S-100 8086 CPU board runs CP/M-86+ and MSDOS 4.01.  I imagine it
could run FreeDOS as well if someone were to port it.

However for really good PC like compatibility you'll want these two boards
we are working on:

1.  S-100 MS-DOS Support board

Adds the essential guts of a PC/AT motherboard minus CPU and RAM to the
S-100 bus.  In development and approaching initial "production" status in
probably 6-8 weeks.

http://s100computers.com/My%20System%20Pages/MSDOS%20Board/MSDOS%20Board.htm

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=S-100%20MS-DOS%
20Support%20Board



2.  S-100 VGA

Adds a GD5420 Super VGA chip to S-100 bus.  Has just started development.
John has the initial prototype for build and test -- no ETA.

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=S-100%20VGA



In theory, with the above boards with a S-100 8086 CPU board and S-100 4MB
SRAM you could build a more or less PC/AT compatible S-100 system.

This should dramatically add to the amount of available software for your
system.

There is also a S-100 80286 CPU board in development.  All the S-100 CPU
boards are or will be TMI compatible to allow multiple CPU bus masters.

Apparently at least one N8VEM builder has a system which is demonstrating
S-100 8086 CPU and S-100 Z80 CPU dual masters.

http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem-s100/browse_thread/thread/235e20227d03f
046

This is not the only example but the most recent and has readily available
information online.

It is an all S100computers.com/N8VEM system except for the motherboard.   

Unfortunately the number of S-100 boards we've got now (24) greatly exceeds
the number of slots (8) on the S-100 backplane PCB.

I guess that means a larger S-100 backplane PCB is forcing its way into the
job queue.  ;-)

Hope this helps.  Please let me know if you have any questions.  Thanks and
have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch




From cctech at vax-11.org  Tue Dec 27 19:11:37 2011
From: cctech at vax-11.org (cctech at vax-11.org)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:11:37 -0700 (MST)
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>



On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> At 2:52 PM -0800 12/27/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>> I still think there is a lot of life in Power Macs. My two main desktop
>> machines and my main laptop are all PowerPC (G5, iMac G4 and late iBook 
>> G4).
>> I plan to get at least 10 years out of my quad, and I have a spare unit
>> identically configured, just in case.
>
> Depending on your requirements, that sounds reasonable.  I managed to get 
> nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac, and I'm a heavy 
> Photoshop user.  Granted I was ready to replace it at about 5 years, but 
> limped on for a couple more.  My primary problem was I needed more RAM (I had 
> 7 of the 8Gb possible).  The hardware finally gave out on me (the onboard 
> ethernet died about 3 years before the rest of the system).
>
> Interestingly enough I now have a late-2010 8-core Mac Pro, and with only 6Gb 
> of RAM, it was slower than the G5.  With 24Gb of RAM it's normally pretty 
> speedy and I can't put a load on it, though I must confess I've started 
> pricing what it will take to get to 48Gb.
>
> Right now it's running Adobe Bridge, Photoshop, Lightroom, InDesign, and 
> Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other things.  My 
> performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk I/O.  Actually the 
> main performance problem is these **** HD's that go to sleep on their own 
> when not being used, and there doesn't seem to be a way to turn off that 
> behavior!
>
> Zane
>
>
>
> -- 
> | Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
> | healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
> |                                  | Photographer               |
> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+
> |                     My flickr Photostream                     |
> |          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |
>

You could always switch to SSDs, but it may cost more to get a SCSI 
SSD than a new computer would cost....

Clint



From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Tue Dec 27 19:11:43 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:11:43 -0800 (PST)
Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing
In-Reply-To: <001c01ccc4f9$196f3100$4c4d9300$@YAHOO.COM>
References: <fe4e2c4a-d965-4271-91b7-2c2577c6bdec@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
 <00e901ccc3e5$9d532220$d7f96660$@YAHOO.COM>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271126010.3991@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <001c01ccc4f9$196f3100$4c4d9300$@YAHOO.COM>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271706250.19975@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Andrew Lynch wrote:

>> What are the possibilities of running DOS of some sort and a homebrewed
>> VGA board?
>
> Hi Dave!  Thanks!  The possibilities are pretty good if you are patient.
> John and I are developing two new boards to address this very issue.
>
> The current S-100 8086 CPU board runs CP/M-86+ and MSDOS 4.01.  I imagine it
> could run FreeDOS as well if someone were to port it.
>
> However for really good PC like compatibility you'll want these two boards
> we are working on:
>
> 1.  S-100 MS-DOS Support board
>
> 2.  S-100 VGA

I was about to ask if anything else would be necessary to assure hardware 
compatibility with the 5150.  It looks like the MS-DOS support board is 
what I was thinking of.  Does the RTC include a battery in the package? 
I don't see it elsewhere on the board. That might be a cause of trouble 
later on (see Sun workstations).

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 27 19:31:52 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:31:52 -0800 (PST)
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org> from
 "cctech@vax-11.org" at "Dec 27, 11 06:11:37 pm"
Message-ID: <201112280131.pBS1VrWT010070@floodgap.com>

> You could always switch to SSDs, but it may cost more to get a SCSI 
> SSD than a new computer would cost....

All Power Macs from the G3 on up use PATA or (in the case of the G5) SATA,
and bootable SATA PCI cards are still relatively easy to source.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Today's Internal Revenue Service: We got what it takes to take what you got!


From jrasite at eoni.com  Tue Dec 27 19:33:54 2011
From: jrasite at eoni.com (Jim Arnott)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:33:54 -0800
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com><p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
Message-ID: <1F66A062-2C0C-4B4F-A5D3-E99EBD1F5FE8@eoni.com>

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:

>  I managed to get nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5  
> PowerMac, and I'm a heavy Photoshop user.  Granted I was ready to  
> replace it at about 5 years, but limped on for a couple more.  My  
> primary problem was I needed more RAM (I had 7 of the 8Gb  
> possible).  The hardware finally gave out on me (the onboard  
> ethernet died about 3 years before the rest of the system).

Did you reload the OS after the Ethernet failed? An archive and  
install has fixed that very problem on a handful of Macs I've had that  
failure on. Stumbled on the fix by accident. Was cleaning up a  
princess leia makeup mirror G4 iMac that I'd switched to wireless  
years earlier due to the E-net failure. Plugged it into the network  
and magically the Software updates started loading. No airport  
configured.

You might give it a try if you still have the box.

Jim



From alexeyt at freeshell.org  Tue Dec 27 19:36:08 2011
From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 01:36:08 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: HDD tuning Was: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112280128480.4813@sdf.lonestar.org>

On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other things.  My 
> performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk I/O.  Actually the 
> main performance problem is these **** HD's that go to sleep on their own 
> when not being used, and there doesn't seem to be a way to turn off that 
> behavior!

Don't know if it works on OSX, but on linux the hdparm utility lets you 
turn that off. The -B, -S and -Z switches are relevant.

 			Alexey


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Tue Dec 27 19:45:20 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:45:20 -0500
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
Message-ID: <4EFA74B0.50401@telegraphics.com.au>

On 27/12/11 8:11 PM, cctech at vax-11.org wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>> At 2:52 PM -0800 12/27/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>>> I still think there is a lot of life in Power Macs. My two main desktop
>>> machines and my main laptop are all PowerPC (G5, iMac G4 and late
>>> iBook G4).
>>> I plan to get at least 10 years out of my quad, and I have a spare unit
>>> identically configured, just in case.
>>
>> Depending on your requirements, that sounds reasonable. I managed to
>> get nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 PowerMac, and I'm a
>> heavy Photoshop user. Granted I was ready to replace it at about 5
>> years, but limped on for a couple more. My primary problem was I
>> needed more RAM (I had 7 of the 8Gb possible). The hardware finally
>> gave out on me (the onboard ethernet died about 3 years before the
>> rest of the system).
>>
>> Interestingly enough I now have a late-2010 8-core Mac Pro, and with
>> only 6Gb of RAM, it was slower than the G5. With 24Gb of RAM it's
>> normally pretty speedy and I can't put a load on it, though I must
>> confess I've started pricing what it will take to get to 48Gb.
>>...
> You could always switch to SSDs, but it may cost more to get a SCSI SSD
> than a new computer would cost....

Why SCSI? G5 tower & Mac Pro are SATA. I put an Intel SSD in my G5.

--Toby

>
> Clint
>
>



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 19:47:54 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:47:54 -0800
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
Message-ID: <p06240809cb202095d7f6@[192.168.1.199]>

At 6:11 PM -0700 12/27/11, cctech at vax-11.org wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>>Right now it's running Adobe Bridge, Photoshop, Lightroom, 
>>InDesign, and Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few 
>>other things.  My performance issues are strictly related to RAM 
>>and Disk I/O.  Actually the main performance problem is these **** 
>>HD's that go to sleep on their own when not being used, and there 
>>doesn't seem to be a way to turn off that behavior!
>>
>>Zane
>
>You could always switch to SSDs, but it may cost more to get a SCSI 
>SSD than a new computer would cost....
>
>Clint

My system is SATA rather than SAS, though the RAID stripe my Photo 
Library sits on is eSATA.  I wish I could afford to move the Photo 
Library RAID and Photoshop swap RAID to SSD RAIDs!  At some point I 
suspect I'll need to include a small SSD RAID as temporary work space 
where photo's are worked on, and then copied to the main Library RAID.

Actually a quick price check shows that I could afford to move the 
Photoshop Swap to SSD.  The downside being I'd need a new FW800 
external enclosure for the static data that is on the rest of that 
RAID stripe.  Moving the whole Photo Library to SSD on the other hand 
isn't practical at this time, as it would cost well over $3k.  The 
worst part is that wouldn't leave much room for growth, to get an SSD 
RAID the size of my current Library RAID would be closer to $8k 
(ouch!).

Zane




-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 19:55:22 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:55:22 -0800
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <1F66A062-2C0C-4B4F-A5D3-E99EBD1F5FE8@eoni.com>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com><p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.
 1.199]> <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271810490.10444@daffy.vax-11.org>
 <1F66A062-2C0C-4B4F-A5D3-E99EBD1F5FE8@eoni.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080acb2025f0194c@[192.168.1.199]>

At 5:33 PM -0800 12/27/11, Jim Arnott wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>>  I managed to get nearly 7 years out of my Rev.0 Dual 2Ghz G5 
>>PowerMac, and I'm a heavy Photoshop user.  Granted I was ready to 
>>replace it at about 5 years, but limped on for a couple more.  My 
>>primary problem was I needed more RAM (I had 7 of the 8Gb 
>>possible).  The hardware finally gave out on me (the onboard 
>>ethernet died about 3 years before the rest of the system).
>
>Did you reload the OS after the Ethernet failed? An archive and 
>install has fixed that very problem on a handful of Macs I've had 
>that failure on. Stumbled on the fix by accident. Was cleaning up a 
>princess leia makeup mirror G4 iMac that I'd switched to wireless 
>years earlier due to the E-net failure. Plugged it into the network 
>and magically the Software updates started loading. No airport 
>configured.
>
>You might give it a try if you still have the box.

I ended up putting an Intel GigE PCI-X card in it, *thankfully* that 
worked.  Finally it got to the point where it wouldn't boot normally 
(reloading the OS did nothing at that point).  This happened right 
after the late-2010 models were announced and I was able to limp 
along until they were available.  For some reason while a fresh OS 
install didn't help, it was able to boot into safe mode under 10.4.

And of course I still have it. ;-)  I wouldn't mind being able to revive it.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 19:56:47 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 17:56:47 -0800
Subject: HDD tuning Was: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112280128480.4813@sdf.lonestar.org>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112280128480.4813@sdf.lonestar.org>
Message-ID: <p0624080bcb2027a57fc1@[192.168.1.199]>

At 1:36 AM +0000 12/28/11, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>
>>Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other things. 
>>My performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk I/O. 
>>Actually the main performance problem is these **** HD's that go to 
>>sleep on their own when not being used, and there doesn't seem to 
>>be a way to turn off that behavior!
>
>Don't know if it works on OSX, but on linux the hdparm utility lets 
>you turn that off. The -B, -S and -Z switches are relevant.
>
>			Alexey

hdparam: command not found.

I'll do some googling, this might be enough to figure it out!

Thanks!

Zane


-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Tue Dec 27 20:13:58 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:13:58 -0500
Subject: FW: [N8VEM-S100:575] S-100 8086 Up and Runing
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271706250.19975@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <fe4e2c4a-d965-4271-91b7-2c2577c6bdec@n22g2000prh.googlegroups.com>
 <00e901ccc3e5$9d532220$d7f96660$@YAHOO.COM>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271126010.3991@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <001c01ccc4f9$196f3100$4c4d9300$@YAHOO.COM>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112271706250.19975@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <001b01ccc506$757d18b0$60774a10$@YAHOO.COM>

> 
> I was about to ask if anything else would be necessary to assure hardware
> compatibility with the 5150.  It looks like the MS-DOS support board is
what I
> was thinking of.  Does the RTC include a battery in the package?
> I don't see it elsewhere on the board. That might be a cause of trouble
later
> on (see Sun workstations).
> 
> --
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
> 
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Hi Dave!  Thanks!  The S-100 MS-DOS Support Board uses a DS12887 RTC which
contains an internal battery.

They last about 10 years or so.  Please a socket the chip and if it runs out
of backup power just replace it.

I suppose it would be easy enough to add a connector for an external
battery.  Let's discuss with John.

We are open to requests on the design but if you have input we should
probably discuss it on N8VEM-S100 mailing list since it would be off-topic
here.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch



From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 20:23:42 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:23:42 -0800
Subject: HDD tuning Was: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p0624080bcb2027a57fc1@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112280128480.4813@sdf.lonestar.org>
 <p0624080bcb2027a57fc1@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <p0624080ecb202d9ee62d@[192.168.1.199]>

At 5:56 PM -0800 12/27/11, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>At 1:36 AM +0000 12/28/11, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
>>On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Zane H. Healy wrote:
>>
>>>Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other 
>>>things. My performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk 
>>>I/O. Actually the main performance problem is these **** HD's that 
>>>go to sleep on their own when not being used, and there doesn't 
>>>seem to be a way to turn off that behavior!
>>
>>Don't know if it works on OSX, but on linux the hdparm utility lets 
>>you turn that off. The -B, -S and -Z switches are relevant.
>>
>>			Alexey
>
>hdparam: command not found.
>
>I'll do some googling, this might be enough to figure it out!

I think the answer to the problem is in the CHUD tools for 
Developers.  It's called SpindownHD.app and I'm not trying to find 
info on exactly how it works.  The other solution is a 'cron job' 
(whatever replaced cron) that touches a file every few minutes.

I like the idea of being able to turn this on just when I'm doing 
photo editing.

Zane




-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From spectre at floodgap.com  Tue Dec 27 20:44:24 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 18:44:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: HDD tuning Was: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p0624080ecb202d9ee62d@[192.168.1.199]> from "Zane H. Healy" at
 "Dec 27, 11 06:23:42 pm"
Message-ID: <201112280244.pBS2iOYL019124@floodgap.com>

> I think the answer to the problem is in the CHUD tools for 
> Developers.  It's called SpindownHD.app and I'm not trying to find 
> info on exactly how it works.  The other solution is a 'cron job' 
> (whatever replaced cron) that touches a file every few minutes.

I assume "NOW trying ..." ;)

On my quad, there is a checkbox in SpindownHD for "Disks sleep after
___ minutes idle" (and of course I have it unchecked).

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Watch your mouth, kid, or you'll find yourself floating home. -- Han Solo --


From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 21:54:25 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 03:54:25 +0000
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>

I got an answer from the seller!

A rare 20MB Novell CPM computer built on or about 1985. It works, has
an image printer, and cable. In addition to working software, has
Wordstar, Datastar, complete set of books for the operating system,
and all software in addition to disk to restore all software. This
system is for the collector who wishes to posses this original system.
The operating system was used as the basis for current operating
systems. Cases included. This is indeed a rare find. This computer is
a collecters item not available anywhere, it
was purchased by an employee of novell an is in working order, this
computer is sure to increase in value very rapidly as it is only
available through this offering. serious offers only all cons or
persons trying to engage in online scams will be reported to ebay as
well as law enforment officers. shipping is extra as the cases vary in
weight and are quite heavy. Dont let this oportunity to own this
memorabilia that is at the forefront of the internet age


>From the style could it be earlier and from Novell Data Systems which
the company started as and were a computer manufacturer.

Dave Caroline


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Tue Dec 27 22:04:02 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 23:04:02 -0500
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+dfMdNQKREKS8GyVkB8qH29cN791Kbb_qP1KNp9fgwr7Mg@mail.gmail.com>

> I got an answer from the seller!

My answer from him was just about the same.

--
Will


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Tue Dec 27 22:13:54 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 20:13:54 -0800
Subject: HDD tuning Was: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <201112280244.pBS2iOYL019124@floodgap.com>
References: <201112280244.pBS2iOYL019124@floodgap.com>
Message-ID: <p0624080fcb2046089eef@[192.168.1.199]>

At 6:44 PM -0800 12/27/11, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
>  > I think the answer to the problem is in the CHUD tools for
>>  Developers.  It's called SpindownHD.app and I'm not trying to find
>>  info on exactly how it works.  The other solution is a 'cron job'
>>  (whatever replaced cron) that touches a file every few minutes.
>
>I assume "NOW trying ..." ;)
>
>On my quad, there is a checkbox in SpindownHD for "Disks sleep after
>___ minutes idle" (and of course I have it unchecked).

LOL!!!  Yeah, that's what I meant.

I have the same setting.  That would explain why after coming back to 
my computer after having been away for an hour, Capture One responded 
immediately! :-)

I just set them to sleep after 5 minutes idle, so I can finish 
verifying that it works how I think it does.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From legalize at xmission.com  Tue Dec 27 22:48:02 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:48:02 -0700
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RflQo-0000Ko-SR@shell.xmission.com>


> [ebay seller writes...] , this
> computer is sure to increase in value very rapidly as it is only
> available through this offering.

Whoop-dee-freakin'-doo

If these things really did appreciate the way people describe them,
then scrappers would never get old computers.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Tue Dec 27 23:24:47 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 21:24:47 -0800
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Dec 2011 at 3:54, Dave Caroline wrote:

> I got an answer from the seller!
> 
> A rare 20MB Novell CPM computer built on or about 1985. It works, has
> an image printer, and cable. In addition to working software, has
> Wordstar, Datastar, complete set of books for the operating system,
> and all software in addition to disk to restore all software. 

Didn't Televideo also have a CP/M model that worked with the old 
Novell RS-422 linkup?   I may have a boot disk for one somehwere...

The TVI verson probably isn't going for 10K, however.

--Chuck



From mcguire at neurotica.com  Tue Dec 27 23:44:35 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 00:44:35 -0500
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <E1RflQo-0000Ko-SR@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1RflQo-0000Ko-SR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <8AA9891B-763E-4196-8BD3-4D5E41926073@neurotica.com>

On Dec 27, 2011, at 11:48 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
> 
>> [ebay seller writes...] , this
>> computer is sure to increase in value very rapidly as it is only
>> available through this offering.
> 
> Whoop-dee-freakin'-doo
> 
> If these things really did appreciate the way people describe them,

  Trouble is, they often do.  Check some prices sometime.

> then scrappers would never get old computers.

  The mechanisms by which most scrappers usually get hardware are rarely if ever affected by its resale value on the secondary market.

              -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA




From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Tue Dec 27 08:13:41 2011
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:13:41 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <467519DC6F54457F8C826E634B642169@OptiplexGX620>

The VT1200 and the VXT2000(+) seem to share the same case although I'm
sure the contents are different. I posted photos of the VXT2000 on my 
Picassa
page (search Google images for VXT2000). As has been posted before the 
software
to drive this is in OpenVMS freeware. I recently saw a VXT1300 for sale on 
ebay
by one of this groups members. It did look like a VAXstation 3100.

Dan Snyder
Butler, PA

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?


> On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>
>> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:52:42 -0700
>> From: emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com>
>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> To: General Discussion:  On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>     ;
>> Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?
>>
>> On 2011-12-24 20:55, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>>> IICRC, the VXT2000 is a small pizza box Xterm only system, while the
>>> vt1300 is just a VAXStation 3100 with no SCSI card.
>>
>> IIRC, vt1300, vxt2000 and 4000/vlc were all pretty much the same size.
>> the vt1300 was tms34010 based, vxt2000 & vlc vaxen.
>>
> Pretty sure the VT1200 is TMS34010 based, the VT1300 is just rebadged 
> VAXStation 3100
>
>
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
> 



From enrico.lazzerini at tiscali.it  Tue Dec 27 12:40:49 2011
From: enrico.lazzerini at tiscali.it (Enrico Lazzerini)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 19:40:49 +0100
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
Message-ID: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>

Well this is all i know:

 


8"

STAT d:DSK:

 


9600

r:  128  Byte  Record  Capacity 


1200

k:  Kilobyte  Drive  Capacity 


128

d:  32  Byte  Directory  Entries 


128

c:  Checked  Directory  Entries 


128

e:  Records/  Extent 

 


16

b:  Records/  Block 

 


64

s:  Sectors/  Track 

 


2

t:  Reserved  'rracks 

 


2

SIDES

 

 

				

 

This is that I calculate:

 


BEGIN SCO2 (1024 bytes/sector) - DSDD 8"


DENSITY MFM ,HIGH 


CYLINDERS 77 SIDES 1 SECTORS 8,1024


SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9


SIDE2 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9


ORDER CYLINDERS


BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 3 DSM 599 DRM 127 AL0 0C0H AL1 0 OFS 2


END

 

Here what 22disk tell me:

 

http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg

 

Where I'm wrong?

 

Thanks for any suggestion.

Enrico



From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Tue Dec 27 15:14:00 2011
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 16:14:00 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
Message-ID: <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>

Goto:
http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol3num4/vol3num4art2.txt

for a summary of differences for VXT1000, 1200, 1300 and 2000.

Dan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Peter C. Wallace" <pcw at mesanet.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 25, 2011 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?


> On Sun, 25 Dec 2011, emanuel stiebler wrote:
>
>> Date: Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:52:42 -0700
>> From: emanuel stiebler <emu at e-bbes.com>
>> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>>     <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> To: General Discussion:  On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
>> <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>     ;
>> Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?
>>
>> On 2011-12-24 20:55, Peter C. Wallace wrote:
>>> IICRC, the VXT2000 is a small pizza box Xterm only system, while the
>>> vt1300 is just a VAXStation 3100 with no SCSI card.
>>
>> IIRC, vt1300, vxt2000 and 4000/vlc were all pretty much the same size.
>> the vt1300 was tms34010 based, vxt2000 & vlc vaxen.
>>
> Pretty sure the VT1200 is TMS34010 based, the VT1300 is just rebadged 
> VAXStation 3100
>
>
>
> Peter Wallace
> Mesa Electronics
>
> (\__/)
> (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your
> (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.
>
> 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 06:41:10 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 07:41:10 -0500
Subject: HDD tuning Was: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <p0624080bcb2027a57fc1@[192.168.1.199]>
References: <201112272252.pBRMq12o019702@floodgap.com>
 <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112280128480.4813@sdf.lonestar.org>
 <p0624080bcb2027a57fc1@[192.168.1.199]>
Message-ID: <AD7FE39C-4AE9-4DC7-89C2-6F5993B94F3D@gmail.com>

On Dec 27, 2011, at 20:56, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:

>> Don't know if it works on OSX, but on linux the hdparm utility lets you turn that off. The -B, -S and -Z switches are relevant.
>> 
>>            Alexey
> 
> hdparam: command not found.
> 
> I'll do some googling, this might be enough to figure it out!

Pretty sure hdparm is Linux-specific (I'm out of town and away from my computers, though, so it's hard to check), but I'd at least note that it's not spelled like you expect (the above is not a typo).

- Dave


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Dec 28 08:31:45 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 09:31:45 -0500
Subject: ebay/419/R@RE!/G0LD!/desperation - Re: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFB2851.7020104@telegraphics.com.au>

On 27/12/11 10:54 PM, Dave Caroline wrote:
> I got an answer from the seller!
>
> A rare 20MB Novell CPM computer built on or about 1985. It works, has
> an image printer, and cable. In addition to working software, has
> Wordstar, Datastar, complete set of books for the operating system,
> and all software in addition to disk to restore all software. This
> system is for the collector who wishes to posses this original system.
> The operating system was used as the basis for current operating
> systems. Cases included. This is indeed a rare find. This computer is
> a collecters item not available anywhere, it
> was purchased by an employee of novell an is in working order, this
> computer is sure to increase in value very rapidly as it is only
> available through this offering. serious offers only all cons or
> persons trying to engage in online scams will be reported to ebay as
> well as law enforment officers. shipping is extra as the cases vary in
> weight and are quite heavy. Dont let this oportunity to own this
> memorabilia that is at the forefront of the internet age

This sounds like a similar brand of English to your typical 419 scam.

:D

>
>
>> From the style could it be earlier and from Novell Data Systems which
> the company started as and were a computer manufacturer.
>
> Dave Caroline
>



From innfoclassics at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 09:19:36 2011
From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 09:19:36 -0600
Subject: ebay/419/R@RE!/G0LD!/desperation - Re: Computer like no other,
 unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFB2851.7020104@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB2851.7020104@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAL2B=mH9G4oomirmHKZ0fZDrrUDO1xNH1uQTxhnafBRAsBnEFg@mail.gmail.com>

>> I got an answer from the seller!
>>
>> A rare 20MB Novell CPM computer built on or about 1985. It works,

I got the same message and have written back asking for more
information. I don't think Novell made computers but put their name on
other manufacturers systems.

I also asked if the Head latch is locked on the HD. If it is a 20 meg
like he says it is probably a Quantum 2020.

I also asked what the labels on the diskettes for the OS say.

We will see...it is going to get no bids because of the ridiculous
price. I do like the travel cases.

I am very suspicious but if ti is a scam I don't mind playing along.

Paxton

-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA


From mcguire at neurotica.com  Wed Dec 28 10:22:39 2011
From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 11:22:39 -0500
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>

On 12/27/2011 03:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
> vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>
> The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
> like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
> very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
> only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
> a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
> it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
> expect most modern websites to work...
>
> I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
> and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(

   Linux runs quite well on that hardware, quite zippily too.  That'd 
get you current browsers and everything else, along with a whole lot of 
CPU performance.

            -Dave

-- 
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 28 10:52:23 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 09:52:23 -0700
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>


In article <4EFA379F.21337.84436 at cclist.sydex.com>,
    "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:

> Didn't Televideo also have a CP/M model that worked with the old 
> Novell RS-422 linkup?   I may have a boot disk for one somehwere...

Not sure about the RS-422/Novell part of it, but yes Televideo did
make a number of CP/M machines.  The TS-803 is interesting because it
was one of the few CP/M machines to come with graphics out of the box.
Plus it has a cool looking case!  You can see one on the top shelf
left-hand side of this picture:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/sprawl4/dsc_0611.jpg.jpg>
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 11:07:16 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:07:16 -0500
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>
 <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <CANij+df-Bt91dtE4MjeB7RhOcoi-bD0myJ5Hc3jXA1KhZBxpiA@mail.gmail.com>

> Plus it has a cool looking case!

After a few beers.

--
Will


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 28 11:11:09 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:11:09 -0700
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
Message-ID: <E1Rfx1x-00059x-FR@shell.xmission.com>


In article <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8 at OptiplexGX620>,
    "Daniel Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> writes:

> Goto:
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol3num4/vol3num4art2.txt
> 
> for a summary of differences for VXT1000, 1200, 1300 and 2000.

Nice!

Looks like I need to find that "VAXELN operating system" for my VT1300.

Any ideas where I can find it?  Since this is loaded over the network,
presumably there was some sort of software distribution tape that goes
with the VT1300 that supplies this OS image over tftp when the VT1300
boots up.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 28 11:28:34 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 10:28:34 -0700
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CANij+df-Bt91dtE4MjeB7RhOcoi-bD0myJ5Hc3jXA1KhZBxpiA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAL2B=mGQGkKQxtYxhb9wqc9pKcL_rbcSnKvMwRhq9HSv4KdGLA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CALfYgt=RPTROJJJ7eaE+kSLn=Y-bKbnCf5KS6uK7WhRp61WNXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>
 <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
 <CANij+df-Bt91dtE4MjeB7RhOcoi-bD0myJ5Hc3jXA1KhZBxpiA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1RfxIo-0006l4-F0@shell.xmission.com>


I wrote:
> > Plus it has a cool looking case!

In article <CANij+df-Bt91dtE4MjeB7RhOcoi-bD0myJ5Hc3jXA1KhZBxpiA at mail.gmail.com>,
    William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
> 
> After a few beers.

Well, it's all subjective, but the case is more interesting than most
CP/M boxes I've seen.  Actually it's more interesting than *any* other
CP/M box I've seen.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 28 11:44:39 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 09:44:39 -0800
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Dec 2011 at 9:52, Richard wrote:


> Not sure about the RS-422/Novell part of it, but yes Televideo did
> make a number of CP/M machines.  The TS-803 is interesting because it
> was one of the few CP/M machines to come with graphics out of the box.
> Plus it has a cool looking case!  You can see one on the top shelf
> left-hand side of this picture:

I knew that--I have a collection of TVI CP/M diskettes and some 
manuals that starts with the TS-800 and goes through the 8/16 bit 
combo units.   All looking like TVI terminals., all vaguely 
resembling the 2 color scheme of the VT-100.

No, early on, Novell had an RS-422 based network--and I believe it 
was their first network offering--and hosted on TVI hardware.  I'll 
have to find my boot disk...

--Chuck







From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 12:00:34 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 18:00:34 +0000
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>
 <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
 <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFM414a2Y+0vJTMpAZwLGuvQb7X6TRsdA7d+719k+Tx+A@mail.gmail.com>

On 28 December 2011 17:44, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
>
> No, early on, Novell had an RS-422 based network--and I believe it
> was their first network offering--and hosted on TVI hardware. ?I'll
> have to find my boot disk...
I am guessing this is before the Netware 1.0 days? IIRC, Novell
started out making 68000 machines - a server and diskless
workstations. When they realised that PC-compatibles were taking over,
they dropped the workstations, wrote a client for DOS & revamped the
server OS to support DOS clients. Then, subsequently, wrote a
68K-to-x86 cross-compiler to move the 68000-based server OS to the
80286. This was later rewritten to create Netware 2.x and again to
create Netware 3.x and 4.x, before being replaced with essentially a
new OS with a new filesystem plus a plug-in Netware Core FS module to
support disks from the old OS for Netware 5 and 6.

AIUI, the main netware core FS was one giant lump of x86 assembly code
that was carted from NW2 to 3 to 4 essentially intact, then moved into
a module on NW5 and NW6. After its author left, they were too scared
to attempt anything more than trivial changes...

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 28 14:25:42 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 12:25:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
Message-ID: <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>

WHAT brand and model computer are you talking about?


On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
> Well this is all i know:
> 8"
> STAT d:DSK:
> 9600 r:  128  Byte  Record  Capacity
> 1200 k:  Kilobyte  Drive  Capacity
> 128  d:  32  Byte  Directory  Entries
> 128  c:  Checked  Directory  Entries
> 128  e:  Records/  Extent
> 16   b:  Records/  Block
> 64   s:  Sectors/  Track
> 2    t:  Reserved  Tracks
> 2        SIDES

> This is that I calculate:
> BEGIN SCO2 (1024 bytes/sector) - DSDD 8"
> DENSITY MFM ,HIGH

1200K disk capacity is close to maximum for an 8" diskette.
It is what you expect from 8" DSDD.  "High" would be incorrect usage, but
from a 5.25" perspective, it fits.

> CYLINDERS 77 SIDES 1 SECTORS 8,1024
NO.
You can not get 1200K disk capacity from single sided.

> SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
> SIDE2 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
Those are 10 sectors per side.  You said 8
Are you sure that that is the sector sequence?

> Here what 22disk tell me:
> http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg
> Where I'm wrong?

1) Instead of transcribing some text, you sent a URL to a picture that is
more than 2 MEGAbytes.  (a photograph of your screen?)
THANK YOU for sending the URL instead of attaching it!
	A) Not everybody reads their mail in a web browser.  Sending a URL
	requires cut and paste to get it TO the web browser.
	B) Believe it or not, some of us use dial-up!  2M takes too long.
	C) Surely that file could be MUCH smaller.  Thats a kilobyte for
	each character on the screen.
Was it an error message?   That would only call for a few lines of text.
Was it a scrambled display, such as non-ASCII characters in filenames?


2) You are posting asking for technical support for an unregistered copy
of a program on a forum where the author is an active participant!  If you
REGISTER the program, then he will provide support, maybe even an updated
copy of the program, etc. (It may have additional formats now!)


You didn't tell us the name of the format.
You didn't tell us the form of your calculations.  Were they a wild
guess? or did you look at sectors on the disk to determine them?
What "side-pattern" is it?  Does it alternate sides before incrementing
cylinder, or does it increment cylinder first, and use the first side
before starting on the second?  Does it then go UP the second side, or
DOWN?
You didn't provide us with hex dumps of the directory sectors.  NO, DO NOT
SEND US MORE PHOTOGRAPHS!   If the problem is in the directory, then
let's see THAT!   It's 32 bytes per directory entry/extent - depending on
what the problem is, it might not take more than a few.


From quapla at xs4all.nl  Wed Dec 28 16:11:21 2011
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:11:21 +0100
Subject: diskpacks available
Message-ID: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


As I'm reducing my stash of DEC items I have the
following diskpacks available :

 8x RA60 @ Eur  5/piece
20x RL02 @ Eur 25/piece
 3x RL02 @ Eur  5/piece
 2x RK06 @ Eur 10/piece

They are all in the Netherlands, pick-up is preferred.

Ed
-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.



From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 16:23:11 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:23:11 +0100
Subject: diskpacks available
In-Reply-To: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi_dOSL+AO6nk0so=Csq8AV8yGMiGjpfUGQtQLuFjBZgCg@mail.gmail.com>

hi ed,

I would take the  3x RL02 @ Eur  5/piece. Funds are somewhat limited
here, but If transport is not too expensive I'd love to take care of
them.

Regards,
 Wolfgang

PS: I hope you did make images of the original contents?

2011/12/28, E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl>:
>
> As I'm reducing my stash of DEC items I have the
> following diskpacks available :
>
>  8x RA60 @ Eur  5/piece
> 20x RL02 @ Eur 25/piece
>  3x RL02 @ Eur  5/piece
>  2x RK06 @ Eur 10/piece
>
> They are all in the Netherlands, pick-up is preferred.
>
> Ed
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>
>


-- 
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 28 16:24:36 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:24:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>, 
 <4EFA379F.21337.84436@cclist.sydex.com>, <E1Rfwjn-0003X4-9E@shell.xmission.com>
 <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111228141828.L16996@shell.lmi.net>

> but yes Televideo did make a number of CP/M machines

In my shed, I have a "Diskon"
It's a CP/M computer that was marketed specifically for interchanging
files between CP/M disk formats.

It consists of a bunch of external drives, and a motherbnoard (NOT
Televideo) jammed into a Televideo terminal.
It gives a BDOS error on boot attempt (from 8")

WANT IT?
(pickup in Berkeley)


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com



From quapla at xs4all.nl  Wed Dec 28 16:32:55 2011
From: quapla at xs4all.nl (E. Groenenberg)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:32:55 +0100
Subject: diskpacks available
In-Reply-To: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <a4b0e4949761df877c64bca473b17184.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>


Argggh, must have been blind.... should have been

  8x RA60 @ Eur 25/piece
 20x RL02 @ Eur  5/piece
  3x RL01 @ Eur  5/piece
  2x RK06 @ Eur 10/piece

Ed

>
> As I'm reducing my stash of DEC items I have the
> following diskpacks available :
>
>
> They are all in the Netherlands, pick-up is preferred.
>
> Ed
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>
>


-- 
Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 28 16:39:01 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:39:01 -0800
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <20111228141828.L16996@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111228141828.L16996@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Dec 2011 at 14:24, Fred Cisin wrote:


> It consists of a bunch of external drives, and a motherbnoard (NOT
> Televideo) jammed into a Televideo terminal. It gives a BDOS error on
> boot attempt (from 8")
> 
> WANT IT?
> (pickup in Berkeley)

How many USB ports does it have?  Can I boot Windows 7 on it?

--Chuck



From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 16:42:05 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:42:05 +0100
Subject: diskpacks available
In-Reply-To: <a4b0e4949761df877c64bca473b17184.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
 <a4b0e4949761df877c64bca473b17184.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CANJYbi-jij+Awn+bLs8AxUTnP_GH_6VsFM2CkFUwOL_RenLA9g@mail.gmail.com>

okay, I'd need RL02s. 3 would be nice, than I'd have 4 in total.
That's enough. Contact me privately if you can ship them...

regards,
 Wolfgang.

PS: I'm searching for a RL02 drive for quite some time now. Maybe one
wants to get rid of such a drive. I'd take nearly everything,
restoration is only a matter of time ;) Same for a 9track Drive...

2011/12/28, E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl>:
>
> Argggh, must have been blind.... should have been
>
>   8x RA60 @ Eur 25/piece
>  20x RL02 @ Eur  5/piece
>   3x RL01 @ Eur  5/piece
>   2x RK06 @ Eur 10/piece
>
> Ed
>
>>
>> As I'm reducing my stash of DEC items I have the
>> following diskpacks available :
>>
>>
>> They are all in the Netherlands, pick-up is preferred.
>>
>> Ed
>> --
>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>
>


-- 
--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 28 16:44:11 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:44:11 -0700
Subject: Wanted: X/PEX terminals
Message-ID: <E1Rg2EF-0006O4-W3@shell.xmission.com>

The recent discussion of VXT2000 reminded me of X/PEX terminals.

I'm looking for X Window System terminals, particularly early NCD
models before they switched to using PC keyboards.  I have several NCD
19s, see right hand side of this photo:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/cgm/sprawl4/dsc_0608.jpg>

However, I don't have any of the color X terminals from NCD for that
period.

Also, I have *no* PEX terminals and this would be a very welcome
addition to the collection of the computer graphics history museum.

I have a number of small box type X terminals from NCD, Tektronix and
IIRC even an HP branded one.  They are from late in the X terminal
marketplace where they all had become fairly identical: small
rectangular boxes to which you attached a PS/2 keyboard and mouse and
a VGA monitor.  I can post a list of the exact inventory in the
museum's collection if that will help avoid duplicates.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 16:48:11 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 23:48:11 +0100
Subject: diskpacks available
In-Reply-To: <a4b0e4949761df877c64bca473b17184.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
References: <0f15a00e5623a4fdf7af2d60c39f26a0.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
 <a4b0e4949761df877c64bca473b17184.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl>
Message-ID: <CACStewa9EsJSB-R4Hq9yg8Go3N-9VsSNOS64SmxRCKcf3m3A_A@mail.gmail.com>

Hi Ed,

5xRL02 please for me. I'll pick it up when you want to.

regards,

Sander

On Wed, Dec 28, 2011 at 11:32 PM, E. Groenenberg <quapla at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
> Argggh, must have been blind.... should have been
>
> ?8x RA60 @ Eur 25/piece
> ?20x RL02 @ Eur ?5/piece
> ?3x RL01 @ Eur ?5/piece
> ?2x RK06 @ Eur 10/piece
>
> Ed
>
>>
>> As I'm reducing my stash of DEC items I have the
>> following diskpacks available :
>>
>>
>> They are all in the Netherlands, pick-up is preferred.
>>
>> Ed
>> --
>> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dit is een HTML vrije email / This is an HTML free email.
>



-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From cisin at xenosoft.com  Wed Dec 28 17:00:10 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:00:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>, 
 <4EFAE507.29829.63098@cclist.sydex.com>, <20111228141828.L16996@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>

> > It consists of a bunch of external drives, and a motherbnoard (NOT
> > Televideo) jammed into a Televideo terminal. It gives a BDOS error on
> > boot attempt (from 8")
> > WANT IT?
> > (pickup in Berkeley)

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
> How many USB ports does it have?

No internal ones, you'd probably have to buy an adapter.
But Fry's sells a USB <-> RS232 adapter.  That might work.

> Can I boot Windows 7 on it?
The boot disk that is with it is CP/M.
You'd have to contact Microsoft to get the right version of Windows 7 on
8" disk, or connect a DVD drive (to the USB port that is connected to the
RS232 port?)
But the video is 80 characters per line, so you'd need to get a USB hub,
in order to connect VGA video.

But, once you get it going, you could get rich by transferring files for
people!


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred     		cisin at xenosoft.com



From huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au  Wed Dec 28 07:29:32 2011
From: huw.davies at mail.vsm.com.au (Huw Davies)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:29:32 +1100
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
Message-ID: <655D0A6A-93A1-4302-BACA-281B350298C8@kerberos.davies.net.au>


On 28/12/2011, at 8:14 AM, Daniel Snyder wrote:

> Goto:
> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol3num4/vol3num4art2.txt
> 
> for a summary of differences for VXT1000, 1200, 1300 and 2000.


Thanks for the pointer (to this and other DTJ issues). Good to see them preserved after the two 'mergers'?

Disclaimer: HP pay my wages

Huw Davies           | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green" 




From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Wed Dec 28 12:44:41 2011
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 13:44:41 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
 <E1Rfx1x-00059x-FR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <134B1346756A4C3D8A82907B83B08115@OptiplexGX620>

I believe all that is required is to install the VXT v2.1 distribution on an 
VMS
system, configure and go. I powered up my VXT2000 today and tried it.

The VXT MOP loads from the VMS host:

%%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  28-DEC-2011 11:38:58.19  %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user DECNET on V4705A
DECnet event 0.3, automatic line service
>From node 1.13 (V4705A), 28-DEC-2011 11:38:58.19
Circuit ISA-0, Load, Successful, Node = 1.909 (VXT1)
File = MOM$SYSTEM:VXT021.SYS, Operating system
Ethernet address = 08-00-2B-2B-6F-FF

>From my notes, once I installed the kit on my VAX, I had some hand 
configuration
that was required:

! Example, configure some DECnet objects
$  MCR NCP DEFINE OBJECT VXT$SERVER NUMBER 0
$  MCR NCP DEFINE OBJECT VXT$SERVER FILE 
SYS$SYSDEVICE:[VXT$SERVER]VXT$SERVER.COM
$  MCR NCP DEFINE OBJECT VXT$SERVER PROXY NONE
$  MCR NCP DEFINE OBJECT VXT$SERVER USER VXT$SERVER PASSWORD VXT$SRV_PWD
$  MCR NCP SET KNOWN OBJECTS ALL
! I set the DECnet node address on the VXT
$  MCR NCP DEFINE NODE 1.909 NAME VXT1
$  MCR NCP DEFINE NODE VXT1 LOAD FILE MOM$SYSTEM:VXT021.SYS
! Define the ethernet port for MOP loads
$  MCR NCP DEFINE NODE VXT1 SERVICE CIRCUIT ISA-0
! MAC address of VXT
$  MCR NCP DEFINE NODE VXT1 HARDWARE ADDRESS 08-00-2B-2B-6F-FF
$  MCR SET KNOWN NODES ALL

$  MCR NCP DEFINE CIRCUIT ISA-0 SERVICE ENABLED
$  MCR NCP SET KNOWN CIRCUITS ALL

VAXELN, I "think" is in firmware or is embedded in the load file, when my 
VXT boots,
the dialog looks as though I'm booting a MicroVAX.

If you would like I could email the log file generated by the
install for the VXT software from OpenVMS Freeware V5.0 disk 2.
The log file and my embedded note provides a bit of insight.

email to d.d.s.n.y.d.e.r-:at:-z.o.o.m.i.n.t.e.r.n.e.t.-:dot:-n.e.t.

Dan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com>
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?


>
> In article <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8 at OptiplexGX620>,
>    "Daniel Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> writes:
>
>> Goto:
>> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol3num4/vol3num4art2.txt
>>
>> for a summary of differences for VXT1000, 1200, 1300 and 2000.
>
> Nice!
>
> Looks like I need to find that "VAXELN operating system" for my VT1300.
>
> Any ideas where I can find it?  Since this is loaded over the network,
> presumably there was some sort of software distribution tape that goes
> with the VT1300 that supplies this OS image over tftp when the VT1300
> boots up.
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for 
> download
> <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
>
>      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
> 



From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Wed Dec 28 13:24:59 2011
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:24:59 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
 <E1Rfx1x-00059x-FR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <EFF286ABC1ED497FA9519623DE10DFD2@OptiplexGX620>

Looking at the OPCOM message:

%%%%%%%%%%%  OPCOM  28-DEC-2011 11:38:58.19  %%%%%%%%%%%
Message from user DECNET on V4705A
DECnet event 0.3, automatic line service
>From node 1.13 (V4705A), 28-DEC-2011 11:38:58.19
Circuit ISA-0, Load, Successful, Node = 1.909 (VXT1)
File = MOM$SYSTEM:VXT021.SYS, Operating system
Ethernet address = 08-00-2B-2B-6F-FF

Note the message calls the file VXT021.sys, the operating system. Maybe
it is VAXELN embedded..

Dan
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com>
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?


>
> In article <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8 at OptiplexGX620>,
>    "Daniel Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> writes:
>
>> Goto:
>> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol3num4/vol3num4art2.txt
>>
>> for a summary of differences for VXT1000, 1200, 1300 and 2000.
>
> Nice!
>
> Looks like I need to find that "VAXELN operating system" for my VT1300.
>
> Any ideas where I can find it?  Since this is loaded over the network,
> presumably there was some sort of software distribution tape that goes
> with the VT1300 that supplies this OS image over tftp when the VT1300
> boots up.
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for 
> download
> <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
>
>      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
> 



From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net  Wed Dec 28 14:25:29 2011
From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:25:29 -0500
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
 <E1Rfx1x-00059x-FR@shell.xmission.com>
Message-ID: <48AAA16E302C4EC2A1E1FFC2BF1300C4@OptiplexGX620>

Go to:
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/919

Good reading.

Dan

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard" <legalize at xmission.com>
To: "cctalk" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2011 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: Where to get VXT software?


>
> In article <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8 at OptiplexGX620>,
>    "Daniel Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> writes:
>
>> Goto:
>> http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol3num4/vol3num4art2.txt
>>
>> for a summary of differences for VXT1000, 1200, 1300 and 2000.
>
> Nice!
>
> Looks like I need to find that "VAXELN operating system" for my VT1300.
>
> Any ideas where I can find it?  Since this is loaded over the network,
> presumably there was some sort of software distribution tape that goes
> with the VT1300 that supplies this OS image over tftp when the VT1300
> boots up.
> -- 
> "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for 
> download
> <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
>
>      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
> 



From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 28 17:28:32 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:28:32 -0800
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>,
 <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EFB35A0.26487.14103A0@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Dec 2011 at 15:00, Fred Cisin wrote:

> No internal ones, you'd probably have to buy an adapter.
> But Fry's sells a USB <-> RS232 adapter.  That might work.

I did something like that with an old Macintosh--I used a SCSI-to-USB 
adapter to get my USB DVD drive going on it.  Finding the right cable 
was a big problem, though.

> You'd have to contact Microsoft to get the right version of Windows 7
> on 8" disk, or connect a DVD drive (to the USB port that is connected
> to the RS232 port?) 

Maybe I could install Windows 2.0 twice and then Windows 3.0.  That 
makes 7, doesn't it?

--Chuck



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed Dec 28 18:02:22 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:02:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
 <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281601400.9532@grumble.deltasoft.com>

>
> 2) You are posting asking for technical support for an unregistered copy
> of a program on a forum where the author is an active participant!  If you
> REGISTER the program, then he will provide support, maybe even an updated
> copy of the program, etc. (It may have additional formats now!)

...who has made it plain that he has no interest in letting people know 
that it's even POSSIBLE to register....

g.

-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From legalize at xmission.com  Wed Dec 28 18:11:27 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 17:11:27 -0700
Subject: Where to get VXT software?
In-Reply-To: <48AAA16E302C4EC2A1E1FFC2BF1300C4@OptiplexGX620>
References: <005b01ccc125$08889020$1999b060$@slor.net>
 <CAM2UOwKO7e6G-kn=c6-oUzoY0OikyuqnciD39P4u4Xu1e3728w@mail.gmail.com>
 <E1Reeyy-000124-Hn@shell.xmission.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112241952100.24343@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <4EF746CA.9050403@e-bbes.com>
 <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112250824001.9233@freeby.mesanet.com>
 <3A93C0D11BD049F4A64C6110E7FE5FB8@OptiplexGX620>
 <E1Rfx1x-00059x-FR@shell.xmission.com>
 <48AAA16E302C4EC2A1E1FFC2BF1300C4@OptiplexGX620>
Message-ID: <E1Rg3ai-0004zr-0B@shell.xmission.com>


In article <48AAA16E302C4EC2A1E1FFC2BF1300C4 at OptiplexGX620>,
    "Daniel Snyder" <ddsnyder at zoominternet.net> writes:

> Go to:
> http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/919

Thanks!
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 28 18:13:36 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:13:36 -0800
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281601400.9532@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>,
 <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281601400.9532@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4EFB4030.2190.16A47A7@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Dec 2011 at 16:02, Gene Buckle wrote:


> ...who has made it plain that he has no interest in letting people
> know that it's even POSSIBLE to register....

Doesn't anyone think it's odd that the OP didn't even attempt to 
CONTACT Sydex?

--Chuck



From geneb at deltasoft.com  Wed Dec 28 18:25:13 2011
From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:25:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <4EFB4030.2190.16A47A7@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>,
 <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281601400.9532@grumble.deltasoft.com>
 <4EFB4030.2190.16A47A7@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281621100.10387@grumble.deltasoft.com>

On Wed, 28 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:

> On 28 Dec 2011 at 16:02, Gene Buckle wrote:
>
>
>> ...who has made it plain that he has no interest in letting people
>> know that it's even POSSIBLE to register....
>
> Doesn't anyone think it's odd that the OP didn't even attempt to
> CONTACT Sydex?

How?  Does the phone number still work that's listed in the shareware 
version (if there even is one listed).  How's he supposed to know what 
website to go to in order to find a contact address?  Even if he guesses 
right, there's NO indication whatsoever that there is still a tie between 
the sydex.com site and the 22disk shareware application.

Either put up a notice saying that the software is still registerable, or 
quit bitching when people stumble around in the dark.

g.


-- 
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!

Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.


From cclist at sydex.com  Wed Dec 28 18:46:18 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:46:18 -0800
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281621100.10387@grumble.deltasoft.com>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>,
 <4EFB4030.2190.16A47A7@cclist.sydex.com>,
 <alpine.LFD.2.00.1112281621100.10387@grumble.deltasoft.com>
Message-ID: <4EFB47DA.17587.18836DC@cclist.sydex.com>

On 28 Dec 2011 at 16:25, Gene Buckle wrote:

> How?  Does the phone number still work that's listed in the shareware
> version (if there even is one listed).  How's he supposed to know what
> website to go to in order to find a contact address?  Even if he
> guesses right, there's NO indication whatsoever that there is still a
> tie between the sydex.com site and the 22disk shareware application.

How do you figure?  

Our address and phone number, as well as email (when the internet 
came out) is present in the documentation, README, and the "reminder" 
screen.  Since 1990, our phone number and mailing address hasn't 
changed; since 1996 or thereabouts (I can check), our email hasn't 
changed.  By now the OP should have figured out the connection, 
anyway.

Or perhaps one of the many people on this list who used 22Disk and 
have registered copies will share the information with him...

--Chuck



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Dec 28 19:15:07 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 20:15:07 -0500
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
Message-ID: <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>

On 28/12/11 11:22 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 12/27/2011 03:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>> Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
>> vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>>
>> The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
>> like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
>> very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
>> only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
>> a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
>> it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
>> expect most modern websites to work...
>>
>> I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
>> and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(
>
> Linux runs quite well on that hardware, quite zippily too. That'd get
> you current browsers and everything else, along with a whole lot of CPU
> performance.

Hmm, when my dual 2.5 is fixed I'll have a spare dual 1.8 to experiment 
on. Is dual boot possible, and what distribution have you tried (I'm a 
Gentoo man)?

--Toby

>
> -Dave
>



From lproven at gmail.com  Wed Dec 28 20:54:15 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 02:54:15 +0000
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 29, 2011 1:18 AM, "Toby Thain" <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>
> On 28/12/11 11:22 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>
>> On 12/27/2011 03:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
>>> vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>>>
>>> The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
>>> like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
>>> very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
>>> only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
>>> a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
>>> it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
>>> expect most modern websites to work...
>>>
>>> I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
>>> and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(
>>
>>
>> Linux runs quite well on that hardware, quite zippily too. That'd get
>> you current browsers and everything else, along with a whole lot of CPU
>> performance.
>
>
> Hmm, when my dual 2.5 is fixed I'll have a spare dual 1.8 to experiment
on. Is dual boot possible, and what distribution have you tried (I'm a
Gentoo man)?

Yes, dual-booting is perfectly possible. My Mac mini G4 triple-boots
between OS X 10.4, 10.5 and an Amiga OS called MorphOS - and I used an
Ubuntu 10.04 PPC boot CD to get it working.

Gentoo is somewhat moribund note, AFAICT, but if you really like your Linux
1995 style then you might B4R able to find a build of Arch or something. Or
a BSD.

Me, I'd probably suggest Debian.

But if I want to run Linux, I'd probably just use a PC, myself. More
drivers, plugins and so on. A large part of the reason to use a Mac for me
is Mac OS.

- LP


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Wed Dec 28 21:11:02 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:11:02 -0500
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>

On 28/12/11 9:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On Dec 29, 2011 1:18 AM, "Toby Thain"<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>>
>> On 28/12/11 11:22 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/27/2011 03:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
>>>> vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>>>>
>>>> The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
>>>> like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
>>>> very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
>>>> only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
>>>> a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
>>>> it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
>>>> expect most modern websites to work...
>>>>
>>>> I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
>>>> and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(
>>>
>>>
>>> Linux runs quite well on that hardware, quite zippily too. That'd get
>>> you current browsers and everything else, along with a whole lot of CPU
>>> performance.
>>
>>
>> Hmm, when my dual 2.5 is fixed I'll have a spare dual 1.8 to experiment
> on. Is dual boot possible, and what distribution have you tried (I'm a
> Gentoo man)?
>
> Yes, dual-booting is perfectly possible. My Mac mini G4 triple-boots
> between OS X 10.4, 10.5 and an Amiga OS called MorphOS - and I used an
> Ubuntu 10.04 PPC boot CD to get it working.
>
> Gentoo is somewhat moribund note, AFAICT, but if you really like your Linux
> 1995 style then you might B4R able to find a build of Arch or something. Or
> a BSD.

Hm, if so, that's sad. The binary distributions don't really cut it, 
though Arch should. Maybe I don't have time for this adventure after all. :)

>
> Me, I'd probably suggest Debian.
>
> But if I want to run Linux, I'd probably just use a PC, myself. More
> drivers, plugins and so on. A large part of the reason to use a Mac for me
> is Mac OS.

Yes, I already run (Gentoo) Linux on an x86, and OS X on my Macs. This 
would be a spare G5 only; the main one would be OS X.

--Toby


>
> - LP
>



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Wed Dec 28 23:39:36 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:39:36 -0500 (EST)
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
 <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <201112290539.AAA15251@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>> Here what 22disk tell me:
>> http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg
>> Where I'm wrong?
> 1) Instead of transcribing some text, you sent a URL to a picture
> that is more than 2 MEGAbytes.  (a photograph of your screen?)

Yes.  (Well, not _my_ screen, but I can easily handle fetching a
two-plus-meg picture and looking at it.)

Here's a transcription of the display.  This is a ten-finger copy and
thus may include errors.  There is what looks like reflection of a
flash preventing part of the screen from being readable; I'm filling my
guess at the relevant area with ***s.  (By playing with contrast
enhancement - severely stretching the brightest 1/40th or so of the
histogram - I managed to read a few characters more than are apparent
at first sight.)

|                             DISPLAY A CP/M DIRECTORY
| 
| Enter CP/M file name.  If you specify a diskette drive (user
| number is optional), it will override the selected CP/M drive.
| You may include 'wild card' characters (* and ?) in the name.
| ENTER will cause all files to be displayed:                      *****
|                                                                 *******
|                                                                 *******
| CDIR Ver. 1.44-Oct 21 1996, Copyright 1996, Sydex.  All rights re*****d.
| THIS IS AN UNREGIETERED COPY--SEE DOCUMENTATION FOR DETAILS.
| Fabio Marverti Format
| 
|  * WARNING! * Out-of-range block number in directory.
|            -- You may be using the wrong disk definition
| Block: 5000, FILE: PROG.COM
| 
| A0:B               A0:COPIA.COM       A0:EXEC.COM        A0:FCOPY.COM
| A0:MAGLIA.HLP      A0:MINSTALL.DAT    A0:PACK.COM        A0:PIP.COM
| A0:PROG.COM        A0:PROG.COM        A0:PROG.COM        A0:PROVA1.MMM
| A0:PROVA1.MMM      A0:PROVA1.MMM      A0:STAT.COM        A0:VERDSK.COM
| 
| 1062K free on drive A:
| Press any key to continue...
| 

I'm actually not sure of the e and d on the "CDIR Ver..." line next to
the obscured area; what I can see is consistent with the letters given,
and it seems highly likely the partially obscured text is "reserved",
but that e and d actually could for all I can tell be o and u or some
such instead.

> 	C) Surely that file could be MUCH smaller.

It could.  The picture is 3264x2448 pixels and shows not only the
screen but the monitor's frame, a camera (or something like it) mounted
on top of the monitor, and assorted miscellany in background - the only
thing there that looks easily readable to me is the name "BON JOVI",
but there are fragments of other things; none of the lot looks to me
likely to be relevant to the thread.

There is approximately no important loss of legibility in scaling it
down by a factor of 4 in each dimension.

A picture taken square-on without flash would have been substantially
easier to read - hint, hint, for anyone taking such pictures.  (If your
camera doesn't know how to shut off flash, put something opaque in
front of the flash - there's no point using flash when taking a picture
of something self-luminant but not reflective.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From cisin at xenosoft.com  Thu Dec 29 00:24:23 2011
From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 22:24:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <201112290539.AAA15251@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
 <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
 <201112290539.AAA15251@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Message-ID: <20111228221005.W37416@shell.lmi.net>

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011, Mouse wrote:
> Yes.  (Well, not _my_ screen, but I can easily handle fetching a
> two-plus-meg picture and looking at it.)
> Here's a transcription of the display.  This is a ten-finger copy and

Thanks!

> | CDIR Ver. 1.44-Oct 21 1996, Copyright 1996, Sydex.  All rights re*****d.
> | THIS IS AN UNREGIETERED COPY--SEE DOCUMENTATION FOR DETAILS.
> | Fabio Marverti Format
> |  * WARNING! * Out-of-range block number in directory.
> |            -- You may be using the wrong disk definition
> | Block: 5000, FILE: PROG.COM
> | A0:B               A0:COPIA.COM       A0:EXEC.COM        A0:FCOPY.COM
> | A0:MAGLIA.HLP      A0:MINSTALL.DAT    A0:PACK.COM        A0:PIP.COM
> | A0:PROG.COM        A0:PROG.COM        A0:PROG.COM        A0:PROVA1.MMM
> | A0:PROVA1.MMM      A0:PROVA1.MMM      A0:STAT.COM        A0:VERDSK.COM
> | 1062K free on drive A:

I'm not familiar with Fabio Marverti.
If that's the machine that the STAT DSK: was done on, then it should have
600 blocks.

Before we speculate much further, we need an explanation for why he said
that it is 1 sided, and why he siad that the 8 sectors are numbered 0 - 9




From system11 at bigpond.com  Thu Dec 29 00:48:07 2011
From: system11 at bigpond.com (JENNY & ROYCE SMITH)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 17:48:07 +1100
Subject: Can you read rx02 or rl02 disks ??
Message-ID: <2733042AB3C245DCA68AD961E7E82023@roycemain>

To all, 
 
Happy New Year and good luck in 2011.
 
Being new to this site, I have some requests for help.
Question 1. Anyone with a working pdp-11 with rx02, I have some
diskettes I wish to recover data and programs from for use with Robert
Supnik's pdp-11 emulator, can you make a disk image suitable for above
to email me. I am happy to pay you to do this and return the floppies to
me.
Question 2. As above but 4x RL02 cartridges, but if you can get the
images, you can keep the disks.
 
If you have both rx02 and rl02 would save time and postage.
For those fussy about copyrights I have valid licenses and full
documentation for RT-11, TSX+ and S&H Cobol, but unfortunately no longer
have a machine to read them. (Hindsight is marvellous) 
 
Thanks in anticipation,
 
Royce Smith
Southern Highlands, New South Wales
Australia
system11 at bigbond.com
 
 
 


From james at attfield.co.uk  Thu Dec 29 06:31:25 2011
From: james at attfield.co.uk (James Attfield)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:31:25 -0000
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1325095201.25517.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.3.1325095201.25517.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <000a01ccc625$c82f1480$588d3d80$@co.uk>

> Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2011 15:07:11 -0800
> From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>	<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: A Yuletide dilemma
> Message-ID: <p06240807cb1ffde2b64a@[192.168.1.199]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"

--- 8< ---
> Right now it's running Adobe Bridge, Photoshop, Lightroom, InDesign, 
> and Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other 
> things.  My performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk 
> I/O.  Actually the main performance problem is these **** HD's that 
> go to sleep on their own when not being used, and there doesn't seem 
> to be a way to turn off that behavior!
>
> Zane
--- 8< ---

Presumably un-checking 'Put the hard disk(s) to sleep when possible' in the
'Energy Saver' control panel doesn't have the desire effect?

Jim




From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 06:39:57 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:39:57 +0000
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 December 2011 03:11, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 28/12/11 9:54 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> On Dec 29, 2011 1:18 AM, "Toby Thain"<toby at telegraphics.com.au> ?wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 28/12/11 11:22 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 12/27/2011 03:42 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Over Yule dinner, a friend offered me a free computer. Not really
>>>>> vintage by CCtalk standards, I guess. A dual-core 2GHz G5 Mac Pro.
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing is, I am considering getting rid of my PowerPC OS X Macs. I
>>>>> like OS X very much, but despite Cameron's valiant efforts with the
>>>>> very nifty TenFourFox, it's running out of current browsers and it
>>>>> only runs a version of Mac OS X that's now 2 releases out of date. As
>>>>> a writing tool, a G3 with MacOS 9.2 on it would almost be more use, as
>>>>> it makes no pretence of being a current machine and one wouldn't
>>>>> expect most modern websites to work...
>>>>>
>>>>> I am torn. I'd love it, but I'm not sure I really have any use for it,
>>>>> and I'm short on space and already paring back the collection... :?(
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Linux runs quite well on that hardware, quite zippily too. That'd get
>>>> you current browsers and everything else, along with a whole lot of CPU
>>>> performance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Hmm, when my dual 2.5 is fixed I'll have a spare dual 1.8 to experiment
>>
>> on. Is dual boot possible, and what distribution have you tried (I'm a
>> Gentoo man)?
>>
>> Yes, dual-booting is perfectly possible. My Mac mini G4 triple-boots
>> between OS X 10.4, 10.5 and an Amiga OS called MorphOS - and I used an
>> Ubuntu 10.04 PPC boot CD to get it working.
>>
>> Gentoo is somewhat moribund note, AFAICT, but if you really like your
>> Linux
>> 1995 style then you might B4R able to find a build of Arch or something.
>> Or
>> a BSD.
>
>
> Hm, if so, that's sad. The binary distributions don't really cut it, though
> Arch should. Maybe I don't have time for this adventure after all. :)

I am curious; why not?

I tried Gentoo myself. I spent about 3 days building a system which
wouldn't boot as a result.

But overall, I read all the notes and the (very detailed, if
poorly-written) Handbook, and came away utterly unconvinced. I do not
see any real benefit in compiling your own distro and the notes and
FAQs and so on did not convince me. I don't believe that a few
optimisation tweaks can make that much difference, frankly. It all
seemed like a colossal amount of work, and wasted time, for a
percent's benefit if you're lucky.

The clincher for me, though, was that this ultimately-customisable,
build-your-own distro didn't support the customisation I wanted.
Specifically, that of the init system. I really don't like the System
V init; I find it to me a maze of twisty little shell scripts, all
alike. I wanted a BSD-style init, like Slackware.

You can't. I asked on the fora and mailing lists. I got the ASCII
equivalent of a blank stare. Most of the contributors didn't know
there was a choice of init systems, or what an init was. Those that
did, didn't see why one would want to change it. Those few that
understood that there were differences said "but we've chosen the best
one; deal with it." Which *completely* misses the point of a
"completely-customisable" compile-your-own distro, if you can't make
the one customisation you really want.

I decided at this point that Gentoo was a complete waste of time and
walked away.

Nothing I've ever read has convinced me otherwise, frankly. Although I
met a few smart people, in its time - 5-6Y or more ago - that could
argue why it was a good thing, frankly, all the most professional
Linux types I've met use Debian. A few corporate wage-slaves favour
RHEL. Anything else seems to be just being different for the sake of
it, which is not what I would choose if I were hiring a Linux
sysadmin, personally.

Desktops are slightly different, but not massively. If you like to
play, Arch seems to be the modern choice. If you just want it to work,
Ubuntu. If you want something more Free or with your own choice of
desktop, Debian. If you want to be a corporate wage-slave, CentOS.

Other choices, frankly, are either simple boosterism, like the
overclockers building AMD PCs because they're AMD supporters, even
though Intel comprehensively won the performance race 5Y or more ago
and AMD will never come back again.

Distro choice in the 2nd decade of the 21st century seems to me to be:

Noob? Ubuntu. Expert?

Server:
Is someone else paying? Run RHEL. Otherwise, run Debian, unless you're
after a toy not a tool.

Desktop:
Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.

>> Me, I'd probably suggest Debian.
>>
>> But if I want to run Linux, I'd probably just use a PC, myself. More
>> drivers, plugins and so on. A large part of the reason to use a Mac for me
>> is Mac OS.
>
> Yes, I already run (Gentoo) Linux on an x86, and OS X on my Macs. This would
> be a spare G5 only; the main one would be OS X.

Ahh, fair enough!


-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 29 07:47:16 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:47:16 -0500
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>

On 29/12/11 7:39 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> ...
> Distro choice in the 2nd decade of the 21st century seems to me to be:
>
> Noob? Ubuntu. Expert?
>
> Server:
> Is someone else paying? Run RHEL. Otherwise, run Debian, unless you're
> after a toy not a tool.
>
> Desktop:
> Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
> If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.
>

Thanks. Maybe others will find the summary useful.

For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few 
regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging), Gentoo's 
far and away the one I prefer, especially for any non trivial server 
configuration. Binary distributions don't work for me (I use these as 
well when I don't have a choice); as far as I am concerned the concept 
is almost obsolete. I should try Arch though.

The pattern here is very familiar (it pertains to programming languages 
as well); the industry is frozen into anachronistic defaults and refuses 
to learn from anything that doesn't happen to be the most popular 
choice. This is probably not a huge issue for most/desktop Linux users, 
but some of us who configure servers or development systems need more 
flexibility.

I would ask what distro supports PowerPC best, but ... as I said ... 
maybe I don't even have time for that experiment.

--Toby

>>> Me, I'd probably suggest Debian.
>>>
>>> But if I want to run Linux, I'd probably just use a PC, myself. More
>>> drivers, plugins and so on. A large part of the reason to use a Mac for me
>>> is Mac OS.
>>
>> Yes, I already run (Gentoo) Linux on an x86, and OS X on my Macs. This would
>> be a spare G5 only; the main one would be OS X.
>
> Ahh, fair enough!
>
>



From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec 29 08:15:19 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 06:15:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au> from Toby Thain at "Dec 29,
 11 08:47:16 am"
Message-ID: <201112291415.pBTEFJBb015962@floodgap.com>

> I would ask what distro supports PowerPC best, but ... as I said ... 
> maybe I don't even have time for that experiment.

I "hear" from my Power Mac friends who have jumped ship from OS X that
MintPPC works best on the desktop, and CRUX PPC for servers.

But, if I had a spare mini G4, I'd probably put MorphOS on it. I'm hoping
they support the iBook G4s soon.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The son becomes the father, the father becomes the son, the uncle has a beer.


From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 09:35:14 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:35:14 +0000
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>

On 29 December 2011 13:47, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 29/12/11 7:39 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> ...
>>
>> Distro choice in the 2nd decade of the 21st century seems to me to be:
>>
>> Noob? Ubuntu. Expert?
>>
>> Server:
>> Is someone else paying? Run RHEL. Otherwise, run Debian, unless you're
>> after a toy not a tool.
>>
>> Desktop:
>> Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
>> If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.
>>
>
> Thanks. Maybe others will find the summary useful.

Ahahahaha! Well played! :?D

But there was a question in there, perhaps implicit: why source-based
distros? What do you consider obsolete about them?

> For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few
> regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging),


(?)

What do you dislike about .Deb? TTBOMK apt-get is /the/ most mature,
stable and reliable packaging tool there is.

> Gentoo's far
> and away the one I prefer, especially for any non trivial server
> configuration. Binary distributions don't work for me (I use these as well
> when I don't have a choice); as far as I am concerned the concept is almost
> obsolete. I should try Arch though.

[*Boggle*] I would require a quite spectacular justification if I were
hiring a sysadmin as to why to use Gentoo. I mean really Earth-shaking
stuff.

> The pattern here is very familiar (it pertains to programming languages as
> well); the industry is frozen into anachronistic defaults and refuses to
> learn from anything that doesn't happen to be the most popular choice. This
> is probably not a huge issue for most/desktop Linux users, but some of us
> who configure servers or development systems need more flexibility.

Oddly, I agree - but I'm not aware of anything better than
Debian/Ubuntu in this particular area. The most /interesting/ Linux is
GoboLinux but it's going nowhere fast in recent years, sadly.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From alexeyt at freeshell.org  Thu Dec 29 09:44:10 2011
From: alexeyt at freeshell.org (Alexey Toptygin)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:44:10 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <Pine.NEB.4.64.1112291542260.27930@faeroes.freeshell.org>

On Thu, 29 Dec 2011, Liam Proven wrote:

> On 29 December 2011 13:47, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
>> For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few
>> regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging),
>
> (?)
>
> What do you dislike about .Deb? TTBOMK apt-get is /the/ most mature,
> stable and reliable packaging tool there is.

I don't think he's complaining about the packaging tools, but the pace 
(and politics) of the Debian packaging process.

 			Alexey


From healyzh at aracnet.com  Thu Dec 29 10:10:56 2011
From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 08:10:56 -0800
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <000a01ccc625$c82f1480$588d3d80$@co.uk>
References: <mailman.3.1325095201.25517.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <000a01ccc625$c82f1480$588d3d80$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <p06240819cb22412bc041@[192.168.1.199]>

At 12:31 PM +0000 12/29/11, James Attfield wrote:
>--- 8< ---
>>  Right now it's running Adobe Bridge, Photoshop, Lightroom, InDesign,
>>  and Acrobat as well as Phase One's Capture One, and a few other
>>  things.  My performance issues are strictly related to RAM and Disk
>>  I/O.  Actually the main performance problem is these **** HD's that
>>  go to sleep on their own when not being used, and there doesn't seem
>>  to be a way to turn off that behavior!
>>
>>  Zane
>--- 8< ---
>
>Presumably un-checking 'Put the hard disk(s) to sleep when possible' in the
>'Energy Saver' control panel doesn't have the desire effect?
>
>Jim

Correct, however, since writing that I've learned that running one of 
the Developer Tools "SpindownHD" will stop this behavior if 
configured right.  As long as you don't set a number of minutes for 
it to spin them down after, they'll happily keep running as long as 
the app is running.  A near perfect solution.

Zane



-- 
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com              | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Photographer               |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|                     My flickr Photostream                     |
|          http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/           |


From dm561 at torfree.net  Thu Dec 29 10:27:25 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:27:25 -0500
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
References: <mailman.23.1325139876.1045.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <C98B10680A194E42B5CDCF53B77C356E@vl420mt>

----- Original Message:
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 00:39:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: CP/M disk format: need help
Message-ID: <201112290539.AAA15251 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

>> Here what 22disk tell me:
>> http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg

>A picture taken square-on without flash would have been substantially 
>easier to read - hint, hint, for anyone taking such pictures.

----------------
Capturing the text with a terminal program and pasting it into the email 
would be even easier...

Sheesh...

m 



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 10:59:01 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 11:59:01 -0500
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <23E54B5A-794D-446D-95FB-C0C65F22C182@gmail.com>

On Dec 29, 2011, at 8:47, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:

> For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging), Gentoo's far and away the one I prefer, especially for any non trivial server configuration. Binary distributions don't work for me (I use these as well when I don't have a choice); as far as I am concerned the concept is almost obsolete. I should try Arch though.

I like Debian when I need to bring up something small quickly (precisely because of the binary packages; on embedded machines, it just takes forever to compile things).

For my own server, I like Gentoo because of the flexibility of package configuration (especially when it comes
to IPv6, which is in flux here); way back when, I got it running fine on PowerPC, but that was probably also around 2002.

I've found Ubuntu to be nice for desktop use, thought only because it has the easiest time keeping up with my AMD graphics drivers. I've had to use Red Hat and its derivatives at work simply because we have customers who require it because someone wrote down that it was required long ago. I left Red Hat as a distro for my own use long ago, mostly because of RPM.

Of course, I mostly run NetBSD on my power macs these days, though I'm increasingly questioning why; it's gotten abysmally slow on my OldWorld machines. I don't think they ever got ppc64 working very well, either, so Linux would probably be the clear winner for a G5.

- Dave


From spectre at floodgap.com  Thu Dec 29 11:15:02 2011
From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 09:15:02 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <23E54B5A-794D-446D-95FB-C0C65F22C182@gmail.com> from David Riley
 at "Dec 29, 11 11:59:01 am"
Message-ID: <201112291715.pBTHF265012466@floodgap.com>

> Of course, I mostly run NetBSD on my power macs these days, though I'm
> increasingly questioning why; it's gotten abysmally slow on my OldWorld
> machines. I don't think they ever got ppc64 working very well, either, so
> Linux would probably be the clear winner for a G5.

NetBSD has gotten uncomfortably fat. My remaining NetBSD machines all run
1.6 with my own patches, and I've never heard of NetBSD or any *BSD other
than OS X itself running well on a G5.

-- 
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Are we not men? We are Klingons! -- Klingon-Devo Mix Masters, Inc. ---------


From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Thu Dec 29 11:20:46 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 12:20:46 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Capturing/quoting output [was Re: CP/M disk format: need help]
In-Reply-To: <C98B10680A194E42B5CDCF53B77C356E@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.23.1325139876.1045.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <C98B10680A194E42B5CDCF53B77C356E@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <201112291720.MAA25421@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

>>> Here what 22disk tell me:
>>> http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg
>> A picture taken square-on without flash would have been
>> substantially easier to read - hint, hint, for anyone taking such
>> pictures.
> Capturing the text with a terminal program and pasting it into the
> email would be even easier...

Agreed - when that's practical.  But it isn't always; as a simple
example, if it wasn't sent over a serial line, "capturing [it] with a
terminal program" doesn't even really make sense.  (Not to say anything
about this particular case; I don't have enough information to.  By
this point, I'm talking generalities.)

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Wed Dec 28 15:47:33 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed, 28 Dec 2011 21:47:33 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Wanted: X/PEX terminals
In-Reply-To: <E1Rg2EF-0006O4-W3@shell.xmission.com> from "Richard" at Dec 28,
 11 03:44:11 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rg1LU-000J43C@p850ug1>

> 
> The recent discussion of VXT2000 reminded me of X/PEX terminals.
> 
> I'm looking for X Window System terminals, particularly early NCD

Do you know anythign about a unit called a Princeton Ultra-X?

It's a pizza-box sized unit. It conencts toa VGA monitor (DE15 socket), I 
think it uses plain VGA rates only. The keyboard interface is a 5 pi nDI 
Nsocket, same low-level spec as a PC/AT keyboard, but from what I 
rememebr, the scan codes are different. There's a DE9 connector for a 
serial mouse (I seem to remember a setup option for Logitec or Microsoft).

Inside a 4 PCBs, oen of which is the PSU. The I/O board (ethernet, 
keybaord interface, mouse interface, etc) uses an 80188 prorcessor. The 
video board has a TMS34010 video processor, the X server runs on that. 
There's a fair amount of video RAM and a RAMDAC on thsi board, and not 
much else. There's a duaghterboard full of ROMs that contain the X server 
and the fonts.

I only have the base unit. And while I suspect I could obtain a suitable 
monitor and mouse, finding a keyboard is more of a problem. One day I'll 
reporgram the 8048 in a normal PC clone keyboard to work, or something...

-tony


From jws at jwsss.com  Thu Dec 29 17:08:57 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (Jim Stephens)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:08:57 -0800
Subject: Compaq Portable III
Message-ID: <4EFCF309.2050902@jwsss.com>

I just spotted a Compaq portable 3 in a 1980 "flashback" scene of 
Psych.  A useless observation, it had the expansion bay on the back.

"Psych" High Top Fade Out (2009)  Season 4 episode 7

There appeared to be something like a Commodore 64 driving a display on 
camera.  the CP3 was not powered on.

Not sure if anyone here had anything to do with a loan or elsewhere, or 
if the film company owned it.

Jim


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 17:34:49 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 17:34:49 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>

found a mint looking osborne 1 today local computer recyler they had not
even looked at it yet so i managed to get it for decent price got it home
opened it up found some cpm disks nice little bonus and a mint looking
interior
http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4927/osborn.jpg

i tried firing it up and it powers up for fraction of a second when it trys
to do its power on beep and dies.

http://youtu.be/WXzI-FIr50w << see here what its doing   (my ipod tuch sure
is usefull)

i'm guesing its the power supply but want to make sure befor i tare it
apart. i've got another one that does weird things that also needs
servicing but one of the face plate screws is striped so unable to get it
open to look..


From cclist at sydex.com  Thu Dec 29 18:01:09 2011
From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:01:09 -0800
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>

On 29 Dec 2011 at 17:34, Adrian Stoness wrote:

> i'm guesing its the power supply but want to make sure befor i tare it
> apart. i've got another one that does weird things that also needs
> servicing but one of the face plate screws is striped so unable to get
> it open to look.. 

Probably a power supply issue.  I'd start with the electrolytics--
given the age of the machine, they're probably candidates anyway.

--Chuck





From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 18:10:02 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 18:10:02 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>

turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've come
to a new issue.

when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
read the disk

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:01 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:

> On 29 Dec 2011 at 17:34, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>
> > i'm guesing its the power supply but want to make sure befor i tare it
> > apart. i've got another one that does weird things that also needs
> > servicing but one of the face plate screws is striped so unable to get
> > it open to look..
>
> Probably a power supply issue.  I'd start with the electrolytics--
> given the age of the machine, they're probably candidates anyway.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>


From lproven at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 18:23:55 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 00:23:55 +0000
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 30, 2011 12:13 AM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've come
> to a new issue.
>
> when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
> read the disk

The firmware in a CP/M machine I'd much simpler then you are probably used
to, but I would think you'd want to get a boot disk in there as soon as you
can after it's turned on. It may not boot up after it's tried & couldn't
find one.

- LP


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 18:42:37 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 18:42:37 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Dec 30, 2011 12:13 AM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've
> come
> > to a new issue.
> >
> > when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
> > read the disk
>
> The firmware in a CP/M machine I'd much simpler then you are probably used
> to, but I would think you'd want to get a boot disk in there as soon as you
> can after it's turned on. It may not boot up after it's tried & couldn't
> find one.
>
> - LP
>

it does not even try to turn the floppy drive on so i duno


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Thu Dec 29 19:09:35 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:09:35 -0500
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>

On 29/12/11 10:35 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 29 December 2011 13:47, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>> On 29/12/11 7:39 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Distro choice in the 2nd decade of the 21st century seems to me to be:
>>>
>>> Noob? Ubuntu. Expert?
>>>
>>> Server:
>>> Is someone else paying? Run RHEL. Otherwise, run Debian, unless you're
>>> after a toy not a tool.
>>>
>>> Desktop:
>>> Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
>>> If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.
>>>
>>
>> Thanks. Maybe others will find the summary useful.
>
> Ahahahaha! Well played! :?D
>
> But there was a question in there, perhaps implicit: why source-based
> distros? What do you consider obsolete about them?
>

It's more difficult to get non-trivial setups working - unless it was 
anticipated by the builder. Dependencies are very hard and unforgiving 
in rpm/apt, while Gentoo releases many constraints by encoding 
dependencies at a very fine grain level. After you've used it long 
enough, it's something you miss. We use Fedora based servers at work, 
and my ISP required me to use Centos, and pretty much any task is 
complicated relative to Gentoo. And it *inevitably* results in packages 
being more out of date then they should be, for a host of reasons, 
either dependency related, or the age of packages in the particular 
"frozen in time" repository. Rolling upgrades (Gentoo and, I believe, 
Arch) don't have this infuriating time capsule quality.

Of course I am talking about servers, mainly. A lot of this stuff 
doesn't matter much on the average desktop.

>> For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few
>> regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging),
>
>
> (?)
>
> What do you dislike about .Deb? TTBOMK apt-get is /the/ most mature,
> stable and reliable packaging tool there is.

I'm not complaining about the package format, exactly; more their policy 
of twisting packages into the "Debian way". A good example would be Apache.

>
>> Gentoo's far
>> and away the one I prefer, especially for any non trivial server
>> configuration. Binary distributions don't work for me (I use these as well
>> when I don't have a choice); as far as I am concerned the concept is almost
>> obsolete. I should try Arch though.
>
> [*Boggle*] I would require a quite spectacular justification if I were
> hiring a sysadmin as to why to use Gentoo. I mean really Earth-shaking
> stuff.

This pervasive fear in the industry of any tool that's not #1 or #2 in 
popularity is what I was referring to earlier. It might be related to 
the idea of "default thinking" referenced in this post:
http://designmind.frogdesign.com/blog/the-coming-zombie-apocalypse-small-cheap-devices-will-disrupt-our-old-school-ux-assumptions.htm

As a sysadmin I would choose Gentoo over the frustrations of a system 
that regularly blocks me from getting things done.

>
>> The pattern here is very familiar (it pertains to programming languages as
>> well); the industry is frozen into anachronistic defaults and refuses to
>> learn from anything that doesn't happen to be the most popular choice. This
>> is probably not a huge issue for most/desktop Linux users, but some of us
>> who configure servers or development systems need more flexibility.
>
> Oddly, I agree - but I'm not aware of anything better than
> Debian/Ubuntu in this particular area.

It's only possible to make that statement if you haven't learned what is 
different about Gentoo, which introduces a variety of *new* tools and 
capabilities (see above re fine grained package descriptions). The 
binary world - with the exception of Arch, I suspect - has hardly moved 
an inch in the past 15 years, apparently assuming they are the last 
word, and learning nothing. How can that be good for us?

--Toby



 > The most /interesting/ Linux is
> GoboLinux but it's going nowhere fast in recent years, sadly.
>



From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Dec 29 19:58:02 2011
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:58:02 +1300
Subject: osborne 1
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>

Yes, my guess would be a PSU issue too.

They are a bit of a pain to disassemble but the PSU is a self contained unit 
and relatively easy to work on.

Tez

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:42 PM
Subject: Re: osborne 1


> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Dec 30, 2011 12:13 AM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've
>> come
>> > to a new issue.
>> >
>> > when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
>> > read the disk
>>
>> The firmware in a CP/M machine I'd much simpler then you are probably 
>> used
>> to, but I would think you'd want to get a boot disk in there as soon as 
>> you
>> can after it's turned on. It may not boot up after it's tried & couldn't
>> find one.
>>
>> - LP
>>
>
> it does not even try to turn the floppy drive on so i duno
> 



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 20:13:59 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:13:59 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>

whats the best way to take the 2 brightnes dials off their pins?


On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:58 PM, terry stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>wrote:

> Yes, my guess would be a PSU issue too.
>
> They are a bit of a pain to disassemble but the PSU is a self contained
> unit and relatively easy to work on.
>
> Tez
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:42 PM
> Subject: Re: osborne 1
>
>
>
>  On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>  On Dec 30, 2011 12:13 AM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've
>>> come
>>> > to a new issue.
>>> >
>>> > when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
>>> > read the disk
>>>
>>> The firmware in a CP/M machine I'd much simpler then you are probably
>>> used
>>> to, but I would think you'd want to get a boot disk in there as soon as
>>> you
>>> can after it's turned on. It may not boot up after it's tried & couldn't
>>> find one.
>>>
>>> - LP
>>>
>>>
>> it does not even try to turn the floppy drive on so i duno
>>
>>
>


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Thu Dec 29 20:31:49 2011
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (terry stewart)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:31:49 +1300
Subject: osborne 1
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>

Just a steady hard consistant pull.  Don't jerk them off but try to get your 
fingers round the back of them and ease them off.  It's just friction 
holding them on.

Sometimes it's a hell of a lot of friction though.

You've found a manual for disassembly, yes?  They are a little complicated 
to take apart.  In particular it's easy to forget which way up things went 
and where they were plugged in.  Take photos as you go.

Tez

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 3:13 PM
Subject: Re: osborne 1


> whats the best way to take the 2 brightnes dials off their pins?
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:58 PM, terry stewart 
> <terry at webweavers.co.nz>wrote:
>
>> Yes, my guess would be a PSU issue too.
>>
>> They are a bit of a pain to disassemble but the PSU is a self contained
>> unit and relatively easy to work on.
>>
>> Tez
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" 
>> <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: osborne 1
>>
>>
>>
>>  On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>  On Dec 30, 2011 12:13 AM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com> 
>>> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've
>>>> come
>>>> > to a new issue.
>>>> >
>>>> > when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try 
>>>> > to
>>>> > read the disk
>>>>
>>>> The firmware in a CP/M machine I'd much simpler then you are probably
>>>> used
>>>> to, but I would think you'd want to get a boot disk in there as soon as
>>>> you
>>>> can after it's turned on. It may not boot up after it's tried & 
>>>> couldn't
>>>> find one.
>>>>
>>>> - LP
>>>>
>>>>
>>> it does not even try to turn the floppy drive on so i duno
>>>
>>>
>>
> 



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Thu Dec 29 20:50:24 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 20:50:24 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20ALYQK+8k_ZoJWqp+9-XrbobONSiTfxBN30TqNwBgw6g@mail.gmail.com>

txs got the covers off

http://youtu.be/NrIe7iyvtjc



On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 8:31 PM, terry stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz>wrote:

> Just a steady hard consistant pull.  Don't jerk them off but try to get
> your fingers round the back of them and ease them off.  It's just friction
> holding them on.
>
> Sometimes it's a hell of a lot of friction though.
>
> You've found a manual for disassembly, yes?  They are a little complicated
> to take apart.  In particular it's easy to forget which way up things went
> and where they were plugged in.  Take photos as you go.
>
>
> Tez
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 3:13 PM
>
> Subject: Re: osborne 1
>
>
>  whats the best way to take the 2 brightnes dials off their pins?
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 7:58 PM, terry stewart <terry at webweavers.co.nz
>> >wrote:
>>
>>  Yes, my guess would be a PSU issue too.
>>>
>>> They are a bit of a pain to disassemble but the PSU is a self contained
>>> unit and relatively easy to work on.
>>>
>>> Tez
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Stoness" <
>>> tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <
>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org>
>>> Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 1:42 PM
>>> Subject: Re: osborne 1
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  On Thu, Dec 29, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  On Dec 30, 2011 12:13 AM, "Adrian Stoness" <tdk.knight at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've
>>>>> come
>>>>> > to a new issue.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try
>>>>> > to
>>>>> > read the disk
>>>>>
>>>>> The firmware in a CP/M machine I'd much simpler then you are probably
>>>>> used
>>>>> to, but I would think you'd want to get a boot disk in there as soon as
>>>>> you
>>>>> can after it's turned on. It may not boot up after it's tried &
>>>>> couldn't
>>>>> find one.
>>>>>
>>>>> - LP
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>  it does not even try to turn the floppy drive on so i duno
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>


From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Thu Dec 29 21:56:52 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 03:56:52 +0000
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20ALYQK+8k_ZoJWqp+9-XrbobONSiTfxBN30TqNwBgw6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs20ALYQK+8k_ZoJWqp+9-XrbobONSiTfxBN30TqNwBgw6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFD3684.8040203@philpem.me.uk>

On 30/12/11 02:50, Adrian Stoness wrote:
> txs got the covers off
> 
> http://youtu.be/NrIe7iyvtjc

I'd be looking at --

  - Power supply
  - Keyboard
  - Cabling (remove and reseat connectors)
  - Disc controller

-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/


From jws at jwsss.com  Fri Dec 30 00:18:39 2011
From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s)
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2011 22:18:39 -0800
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <4EFD3684.8040203@philpem.me.uk>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs20ALYQK+8k_ZoJWqp+9-XrbobONSiTfxBN30TqNwBgw6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD3684.8040203@philpem.me.uk>
Message-ID: <4EFD57BF.7050909@jwsss.com>

youtube video shows "inserf floppy and hit enter" message on video, so 
would it no be possibly a floppy problem, or maybe the keyboard isn't 
getting the "enter" through?

The original video had a lot of clicking noises, which I didn't place 
the source of.  If the floppies spin / actuate that would be a clue.

The floppy drives quite often spin when you insert a disk so if that is 
happening you'd know the motor voltage on the floppy drive is working.

I don't know if there are head load solenoids for 5 1/4" drives anymore, 
so that may not be a clue.

Jim

On 12/29/2011 7:56 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
> On 30/12/11 02:50, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>> txs got the covers off
>>
>> http://youtu.be/NrIe7iyvtjc
> I'd be looking at --
>
>    - Power supply
>    - Keyboard
>    - Cabling (remove and reseat connectors)
>    - Disc controller
>


From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 01:00:54 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 01:00:54 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <4EFD57BF.7050909@jwsss.com>
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs20ALYQK+8k_ZoJWqp+9-XrbobONSiTfxBN30TqNwBgw6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD3684.8040203@philpem.me.uk> <4EFD57BF.7050909@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs21q7ogmm7rE_aDaDS6VfWd-1KwG9QBdpbq+d_-+6S+tPw@mail.gmail.com>

the noise u hear

first one

is me turning it on

the rest are the keyboard

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 12:18 AM, jim s <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:

> youtube video shows "inserf floppy and hit enter" message on video, so
> would it no be possibly a floppy problem, or maybe the keyboard isn't
> getting the "enter" through?
>
> The original video had a lot of clicking noises, which I didn't place the
> source of.  If the floppies spin / actuate that would be a clue.
>
> The floppy drives quite often spin when you insert a disk so if that is
> happening you'd know the motor voltage on the floppy drive is working.
>
> I don't know if there are head load solenoids for 5 1/4" drives anymore,
> so that may not be a clue.
>
> Jim
>
>
> On 12/29/2011 7:56 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>
>> On 30/12/11 02:50, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>>
>>> txs got the covers off
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/NrIe7iyvtjc
>>>
>> I'd be looking at --
>>
>>   - Power supply
>>   - Keyboard
>>   - Cabling (remove and reseat connectors)
>>   - Disc controller
>>
>>


From terry at webweavers.co.nz  Fri Dec 30 01:24:32 2011
From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:24:32 +1300
Subject: osborne 1
References: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC8EC5.15844.162C76C@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCGU1Q=st4U1hfj47BVDGoT_BZt96+DZQfBow6G0=Tz8Rw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA3rs21t4zXfA5bdA_CaO6FahH6AOn8vM1MQs7q72hKUK33iwA@mail.gmail.com>
 <6D64D7A348D64EDD88E39C3F21D4D2FD@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs210rh9n535MBRt7FrFmiMgOMdDObNkTF+u8aAqWSudD-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <F1B3ED899CA042CA9FDC8ADBD98DD1FF@massey.ac.nz>
 <CAA3rs20ALYQK+8k_ZoJWqp+9-XrbobONSiTfxBN30TqNwBgw6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD3684.8040203@philpem.me.uk> <4EFD57BF.7050909@jwsss.com>
Message-ID: <757F73953B32415D814A848AA53B7456@vshack>

Yes, could well be a keyboard issue.

Tez
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "jim s" <jws at jwsss.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2011 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: osborne 1


> youtube video shows "inserf floppy and hit enter" message on video, so 
> would it no be possibly a floppy problem, or maybe the keyboard isn't 
> getting the "enter" through?
>
> The original video had a lot of clicking noises, which I didn't place the 
> source of.  If the floppies spin / actuate that would be a clue.
>
> The floppy drives quite often spin when you insert a disk so if that is 
> happening you'd know the motor voltage on the floppy drive is working.
>
> I don't know if there are head load solenoids for 5 1/4" drives anymore, 
> so that may not be a clue.
>
> Jim
>
> On 12/29/2011 7:56 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
>> On 30/12/11 02:50, Adrian Stoness wrote:
>>> txs got the covers off
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/NrIe7iyvtjc
>> I'd be looking at --
>>
>>    - Power supply
>>    - Keyboard
>>    - Cabling (remove and reseat connectors)
>>    - Disc controller
>>
>
>
> -----
> No virus found in this message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 2012.0.1901 / Virus Database: 2109/4711 - Release Date: 12/29/11
> 



From etienne at tlabs.ac.za  Fri Dec 30 03:56:37 2011
From: etienne at tlabs.ac.za (Etienne Vermeulen)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:56:37 +0200
Subject: HP1000 Tape Drive Interface
Message-ID: <02c501ccc6d9$525d7080$f7185180$@tlabs.ac.za>

Hi All,

 

In light of the wonderful cache of HP1000 software available now, and not
having any way to load it onto the machine I have to put my request in
again. I need a 13181B interface set for the tape drive. I'm happy to pay
and cover shipping to South Africa. I also have  a 13183 set to swap if
someone is interested.

 

Etienne Vermeulen



From wrm at retro.co.za  Fri Dec 30 00:15:30 2011
From: wrm at retro.co.za (Wouter)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:15:30 +0200
Subject: Was SC/MP kit PDF, now SDK-51 manuals.
Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20111230081529.01c46e10@wheresmymailserver.com>

Hi all

>From: Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com>
>
>Steve, it wasn't too much work. Not as bad as scanning the SDK-51 manuals
>with my manual feed flatbed scanner.

I have here the SDK-51 Assembly Manual, which I was planning to scan since

http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/47,13105

says it's not online.

If it is actually online, save me the trouble?

Also, the actual document is available for postage (from South Africa).

W



From ray at arachelian.com  Fri Dec 30 05:05:57 2011
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 06:05:57 -0500
Subject: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <000a01ccc625$c82f1480$588d3d80$@co.uk>
References: <mailman.3.1325095201.25517.cctech@classiccmp.org>
 <000a01ccc625$c82f1480$588d3d80$@co.uk>
Message-ID: <4EFD9B15.60700@arachelian.com>

On 12/29/2011 07:31 AM, James Attfield wrote:
> Presumably un-checking 'Put the hard disk(s) to sleep when possible'
> in the 'Energy Saver' control panel doesn't have the desire effect? Jim 

I just picked up a dual G5 off ebay for under $200 including shipping as
I still want to be able to code on PPC, and this beastie also allows for
64 bit code.  It's surprisingly fast and can be upgraded to 8G of RAM
for about $100.  The gigabit ethernet interface is a godsend too.  I
don't find Leopard unusable at all, it's not that far a stretch from
Lion, unless there's very new software that you need to run.

There's two SATA drive slots, so if disk access is too slow you can
certainly replace them with 7200rpm ones, or better yet, get an SD drive
or two, at least a single SD drive for the OS/swap and use the 2nd drive
for data.  60G SD drives are becoming relatively cheap these days at
almost $1/gig, and a lot of them come with 3.5" drive bay adapters.

I set mine up to dual boot with Tiger, but maybe I'll squeeze in a Linux
distro on there too.  If I can get my hands on 10.3.4, I might throw
that on there too.



From ray at arachelian.com  Fri Dec 30 05:10:15 2011
From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 06:10:15 -0500
Subject: Linux on Power Mac G5 - Re: A Yuletide dilemma
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFD9C17.6080300@arachelian.com>

On 12/29/2011 07:39 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> Desktop:
> Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
> If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.
>

How well does Ubuntu 11.10 run on G5s? 
https://help.ubuntu.com/community/Installation/MinimalCD#A32-bit_PowerPC.2A.2A
seems to indicate that the latest 11.10 is available althought as a
"mini" ISO, whatever that is.  Presumably it's enough to run an
installer over the net from?  If so that's a fairly modern OS.

Might be worth playing with, but I think I'll need to move up from the
40G and 80G SATA drives mine came with to something like a 2TB drive for
all the OS's I'm after. :)


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 05:55:20 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:55:20 +0000
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 December 2011 01:09, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
> On 29/12/11 10:35 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>
>> On 29 December 2011 13:47, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au> ?wrote:
>>>
>>> On 29/12/11 7:39 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ...
>>>>
>>>> Distro choice in the 2nd decade of the 21st century seems to me to be:
>>>>
>>>> Noob? Ubuntu. Expert?
>>>>
>>>> Server:
>>>> Is someone else paying? Run RHEL. Otherwise, run Debian, unless you're
>>>> after a toy not a tool.
>>>>
>>>> Desktop:
>>>> Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
>>>> If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks. Maybe others will find the summary useful.
>>
>>
>> Ahahahaha! Well played! :?D
>>
>> But there was a question in there, perhaps implicit: why source-based
>> distros? What do you consider obsolete about them?
>>
>
> It's more difficult to get non-trivial setups working - unless it was
> anticipated by the builder.

I really want to understand this. Could you give me any examples, at all?

> Dependencies are very hard and unforgiving in
> rpm/apt, while Gentoo releases many constraints by encoding dependencies at
> a very fine grain level.

Part of me wants to say "a dependency is a dependency; if you need a
library for something to work, then you need it, end of story" and
point out that disk space, even now after the Thai floods, is about 7?
pence per *gigabyte* and that you can fit an awful lot of OS into a
gig of disk. If you installed every single package in the Debian
repositories onto a single machine, the amount of disk space consumed
would cost roughly the same as a can of Coca-cola.

But by the same token, OK, I do sometimes get annoyed at packages
bringing in stuff that I don't want, and unnecessary software does
mean marginally increasing the attack surface of an OS, as well as a
slight increase in complexity. But really, I regard this as a very
trivial problem indeed, overall.

Occasionally it is annoying that Ubuntu does not include the latest
version of a program, although the problem is shrinking all the time -
for instance it now keeps up with Mozilla's new rapid release
schedule, which was for a while a real nuisance. But you only have to
wait 6mth between releases, and on a server, I am typically /very/
conservative with my update schedule, in any case. I only want stable,
well-tested software on my servers.

The idea of *custom-compiled binaries* with system-specific
optimisations that will almost certainly be subtly different from
every other user's out there, thus offering a myriad of potential
differences in behaviour or tiny incompatibilities with 3rd-party
vendors' binaries, drivers, or whatever, on a server, gives me the
screaming heebie-jeebies. It is the /absolute *last* thing I'd want/
on a server - it is very, *very* undesirable indeed, from my POV,
which is why I am, to say the least, curious as to why someone would
see this as something they /wanted/!

Gentoo's original argument was for performance. If a server is
suffering from poor performance, I'd put some more RAM in it, not
tweak the compiler switches and make new binaries! That is not merely
the last thing I'd do, it would be a sackable offence for any server
admin I was paying!

>  After you've used it long enough, it's something
> you miss.

I can, I suppose, believe that, although frankly, I prefer an approach
that maybe installs some stuff you don't need but just gets you a
working package with the minimum amount of mucking around.

> We use Fedora based servers at work,

[*Recoils in shock*]

/Fedora/?! On a /server/?! Seriously? It's a sort of periodic alpha
release, it's not even meant to be stable!

> and my ISP required me to use
> Centos,

That seems very odd to me, but OK, as the free equivalent of RHEL, it
makes a vague sort of sense. I do see it on webservers and things.

> and pretty much any task is complicated relative to Gentoo.

I am not very familiar with modern RH-derived distros - I abandoned
RPM with a song of joy as soon as Ubuntu came out. Suddenly here was
an easy, quite accessible distro that delivered the powerful packaging
system that all my egghead boffin Debian-running friends had been
being superior about for nearly a decade. I never looked back and
would need to be crow-barred back into using RPM these days.

I do understand that it tends to dominate in the US and very
US-dominated areas, though, and in the commercial paid-support sphere.

If I was working as a Linux sysadmin, I expect I'd have to learn RHEL
or Centos and use it.

Happily, I'm not.

> And it
> *inevitably* results in packages being more out of date then they should be,
> for a host of reasons, either dependency related, or the age of packages in
> the particular "frozen in time" repository.

Sometimes by whole months, yes. Can be a niggling irritation on a
desktop; actively desirable on a server.

> Rolling upgrades (Gentoo and, I
> believe, Arch) don't have this infuriating time capsule quality.

Or Debian Testing.

> Of course I am talking about servers, mainly. A lot of this stuff doesn't
> matter much on the average desktop.

I've tried to address that.

>>> For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few
>>> regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging),

Again, could I ask for examples of what you mean? I actively want to
understand this - I always want to understand more about why and how
people use Linux and FOSS, along with other practices and habits and
so on.

>> (?)
>>
>> What do you dislike about .Deb? TTBOMK apt-get is /the/ most mature,
>> stable and reliable packaging tool there is.
>
> I'm not complaining about the package format, exactly; more their policy of
> twisting packages into the "Debian way". A good example would be Apache.

I was typing on my phone, so was going for brevity. It might have been
better to say apt-get than .deb.

>>> Gentoo's far
>>> and away the one I prefer, especially for any non trivial server
>>> configuration. Binary distributions don't work for me (I use these as
>>> well
>>> when I don't have a choice); as far as I am concerned the concept is
>>> almost
>>> obsolete. I should try Arch though.
>>
>> [*Boggle*] I would require a quite spectacular justification if I were
>> hiring a sysadmin as to why to use Gentoo. I mean really Earth-shaking
>> stuff.
>
> This pervasive fear in the industry of any tool that's not #1 or #2 in
> popularity is what I was referring to earlier.

If I wanted the most popular, I'd be running Windows!

No, it's not that, although 3rd-party support is an issue. No, it's
more that I want something stable, conservative, highly consistent
across different systems, that only changes gradually when it
absolutely needs to.

That to me seems the /reverse/ of Gentoo.

> It might be related to the
> idea of "default thinking" referenced in this post:
> http://designmind.frogdesign.com/blog/the-coming-zombie-apocalypse-small-cheap-devices-will-disrupt-our-old-school-ux-assumptions.htm

I am running out of surfing time! I'll read that and come back.

> As a sysadmin I would choose Gentoo over the frustrations of a system that
> regularly blocks me from getting things done.

Again, I'd point at Windows or Mac OS X if you want easy. The reasons
for Linux are stability, power, software, resources and support, ISTM.
Customisability is very low on the list on a server. So long as one
can remove stuff one doesn't want.

>>> The pattern here is very familiar (it pertains to programming languages
>>> as
>>> well); the industry is frozen into anachronistic defaults and refuses to
>>> learn from anything that doesn't happen to be the most popular choice.
>>> This
>>> is probably not a huge issue for most/desktop Linux users, but some of us
>>> who configure servers or development systems need more flexibility.
>>
>> Oddly, I agree - but I'm not aware of anything better than
>> Debian/Ubuntu in this particular area.
>
> It's only possible to make that statement if you haven't learned what is
> different about Gentoo, which introduces a variety of *new* tools and
> capabilities (see above re fine grained package descriptions). The binary
> world - with the exception of Arch, I suspect - has hardly moved an inch in
> the past 15 years, apparently assuming they are the last word, and learning
> nothing. How can that be good for us?

Ubuntu came out 7Y ago - in October 2004 - and has turned the desktop
distro world on its head. It is rapidly driving other desktop distros
to extinction and several of the more interesting rival desktop
distros are Ubuntu remixes.

(E.g. Bodhi, the most significant Enlightenment-based distro in a long
time. Mint, which is doing more with GNOME 3 than anyone. Xubuntu, a
big booster for Xfce. Lubuntu, an interesting attempt at a modern
distro for low-end kit. Even Puppy Linux, the lightest-weight desktop
distro there is, has moved to an Ubuntu base. Damn Small Linux is
dead, sadly.)

It is the biggest thing to /ever/ happen to desktop/server Linux, has
massively increased Linux adoption and use, and it came half way
through your cited period of no change.

Meanwhile Ubuntu Server is making headway, too, although it is
technologically very conservative. I know people who prefer it to
Debian for servers, although I admit, not many.)

So, er, I have to disagree, markedly!

Now this is not to say that I think Ubuntu is perfect - it's not - but
your statement is demonstrably false, I think.

You do know the #1 site for Gentoo advocacy, don't you? :?)

http://funroll-loops.info/

;?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From fraveydank at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 07:24:25 2011
From: fraveydank at gmail.com (David Riley)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:24:25 -0500
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <718C5A02-2D92-4000-B051-EE2B0A527D01@gmail.com>

On Dec 30, 2011, at 6:55, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

> The idea of *custom-compiled binaries* with system-specific
> optimisations that will almost certainly be subtly different from
> every other user's out there, thus offering a myriad of potential
> differences in behaviour or tiny incompatibilities with 3rd-party
> vendors' binaries, drivers, or whatever, on a server, gives me the
> screaming heebie-jeebies. It is the /absolute *last* thing I'd want/
> on a server - it is very, *very* undesirable indeed, from my POV,
> which is why I am, to say the least, curious as to why someone would
> see this as something they /wanted/!

That may have been the original intent behind Gentoo, and it's probably why I originally started using it, but I think the real benefit these days is comfigurability of options. It's nice to be able to specify (on a global or package level) what options I want to build with. For example, netatalk for the longest time did not have DHX2 on Debian/Ubuntu unless youanually downloaded the source RPM and built it with the crypto. In Gentoo, that sort of thing is generally in a USE flag.

The system is not without its problems, of course; I recently had to spend quite a while on my home server cleaning out old dependencies that had accumulated for a long time because I had been unaware of the magical incantations to do so (because their documentation is rather non-obvious).

- Dave


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 30 08:01:32 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:01:32 -0500
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac
 G5
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFDC43C.80409@telegraphics.com.au>

On 30/12/11 6:55 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 30 December 2011 01:09, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>  wrote:
>> On 29/12/11 10:35 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>
>>> On 29 December 2011 13:47, Toby Thain<toby at telegraphics.com.au>    wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On 29/12/11 7:39 AM, Liam Proven wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ...
>>>>>
>>>>> Distro choice in the 2nd decade of the 21st century seems to me to be:
>>>>>
>>>>> Noob? Ubuntu. Expert?
>>>>>
>>>>> Server:
>>>>> Is someone else paying? Run RHEL. Otherwise, run Debian, unless you're
>>>>> after a toy not a tool.
>>>>>
>>>>> Desktop:
>>>>> Ubuntu, unless you're really seriously opposed, in which case, Debian.
>>>>> If you're not man enough for Debian (and I'm not), Xubuntu or Mint.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. Maybe others will find the summary useful.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ahahahaha! Well played! :?D
>>>
>>> But there was a question in there, perhaps implicit: why source-based
>>> distros? What do you consider obsolete about them?
>>>
>>
>> It's more difficult to get non-trivial setups working - unless it was
>> anticipated by the builder.
>
> I really want to understand this. Could you give me any examples, at all?

Yeah, pretty much every week turns up a new example. Right now, we can't 
get a recent Glusterfs on our application servers. Dig deep enough 
you'll find that this is a conceptual package manager problem and not 
any real block. It's not an isolated example; the problem is part of the 
antique insistence on Big Bang point zero releases instead of rolling 
upgrades.

>
>> Dependencies are very hard and unforgiving in
>> rpm/apt, while Gentoo releases many constraints by encoding dependencies at
>> a very fine grain level.
>
> Part of me wants to say "a dependency is a dependency; if you need a
> library for something to work, then you need it, end of story" and

Dependencies are a lot more complex than "X needs Y". The first step 
beyond is extension and plugin systems (even PHP has extensions), and a 
series of refinements beyond that. If nobody thought to build the 
extension you need, and encode its dependency in just the right way for 
the binaries that are in your database, what next?

"At worst I can try a source build..." -- But building from source is 
batshit crazy!

> point out that disk space, even now after the Thai floods, is about 7?
> pence per *gigabyte* and that you can fit an awful lot of OS into a
> gig of disk. If you installed every single package in the Debian
> repositories onto a single machine, the amount of disk space consumed
> would cost roughly the same as a can of Coca-cola.
>
> But by the same token, OK, I do sometimes get annoyed at packages
> bringing in stuff that I don't want, and unnecessary software does
> mean marginally increasing the attack surface of an OS, as well as a
> slight increase in complexity. But really, I regard this as a very
> trivial problem indeed, overall.

It's not just packages bringing in what you don't want. It's also 
packages not bringing in what you DO want (because something wasn't 
packaged exactly how the binary manager expected). But if you've never 
hit this problem, how could you see what I mean?

>
> Occasionally it is annoying that Ubuntu does not include the latest
> version of a program, although the problem is shrinking all the time -
> for instance it now keeps up with Mozilla's new rapid release
> schedule, which was for a while a real nuisance. But you only have to
> wait 6mth between releases, and on a server, I am typically /very/
> conservative with my update schedule, in any case. I only want stable,
> well-tested software on my servers.

Solaris 10. Before it went to the dark side.

>
> The idea of *custom-compiled binaries* with system-specific
> optimisations that will almost certainly be subtly different from
> every other user's out there, thus offering a myriad of potential
> differences in behaviour or tiny incompatibilities with 3rd-party
> vendors' binaries, drivers, or whatever, on a server, gives me the
> screaming heebie-jeebies. It is the /absolute *last* thing I'd want/
> on a server - it is very, *very* undesirable indeed, from my POV,
> which is why I am, to say the least, curious as to why someone would
> see this as something they /wanted/!

Then you don't really understand what Gentoo packaging is about.

>
> Gentoo's original argument was for performance. If a server is
> suffering from poor performance, I'd put some more RAM in it, not
> tweak the compiler switches and make new binaries! That is not merely
> the last thing I'd do, it would be a sackable offence for any server
> admin I was paying!

For me performance has practically zero to do with it. And I'm not in 
the least bit interested in ricing. If you reduce Gentoo down to "the 
ricer's distribution" then you are missing a great deal of the picture.

Again: Default thinking. The same thinking that makes Lisp the butt of 
jokes at parties where nobody speaking has ever used it.

>
>>   After you've used it long enough, it's something
>> you miss.
>
> I can, I suppose, believe that, although frankly, I prefer an approach
> that maybe installs some stuff you don't need but just gets you a
> working package with the minimum amount of mucking around.

Yes! Exactly! For *simple* installations, it usually works! Now try to 
do something that isn't "out of the box".

>
>> We use Fedora based servers at work,
>
> [*Recoils in shock*]
>
> /Fedora/?! On a /server/?! Seriously? It's a sort of periodic alpha
> release, it's not even meant to be stable!

Eh.... there's nothing wrong with Fedora for production.

>
>> and my ISP required me to use
>> Centos,
>
> That seems very odd to me, but OK, as the free equivalent of RHEL, it
> makes a vague sort of sense. I do see it on webservers and things.
>
>> and pretty much any task is complicated relative to Gentoo.
>
> I am not very familiar with modern RH-derived distros - I abandoned
> RPM with a song of joy as soon as Ubuntu came out. Suddenly here was
> an easy, quite accessible distro that delivered the powerful packaging
> system that all my egghead boffin Debian-running friends had been
> being superior about for nearly a decade. I never looked back and
> would need to be crow-barred back into using RPM these days.

So you know approximately how I feel.

>
> I do understand that it tends to dominate in the US and very
> US-dominated areas, though, and in the commercial paid-support sphere.
>
> If I was working as a Linux sysadmin, I expect I'd have to learn RHEL
> or Centos and use it.
>
> Happily, I'm not.
>
>> And it
>> *inevitably* results in packages being more out of date then they should be,
>> for a host of reasons, either dependency related, or the age of packages in
>> the particular "frozen in time" repository.
>
> Sometimes by whole months, yes. Can be a niggling irritation on a
> desktop; actively desirable on a server.

Yes and no. I can make Gentoo as stable as I want. Last setup I did had 
four year uptimes (and the one before that); for all I know, it's five 
years now. But I wasn't just referring to that: I mean that it's easier 
to get the configuration you want in the first place.

>
>> Rolling upgrades (Gentoo and, I
>> believe, Arch) don't have this infuriating time capsule quality.
>
> Or Debian Testing.
>
>> Of course I am talking about servers, mainly. A lot of this stuff doesn't
>> matter much on the average desktop.
>
> I've tried to address that.
>
>>>> For myself: I've tried various. Since abandoning Debian ~ 2002 (with few
>>>> regrets, judging by their Procrustean approach to packaging),
>
> Again, could I ask for examples of what you mean? I actively want to
> understand this - I always want to understand more about why and how
> people use Linux and FOSS, along with other practices and habits and
> so on.
>

Do you know what I mean, though? The Debian makeover is so pervasive 
that it means administration and support knowledge essentially does not 
transfer. Ironic, eh? (You can demonstrate this to yourself by sitting 
in #mysql or #httpd for long enough.)

>>> (?)
>>>
>>> What do you dislike about .Deb? TTBOMK apt-get is /the/ most mature,
>>> stable and reliable packaging tool there is.
>>
>> I'm not complaining about the package format, exactly; more their policy of
>> twisting packages into the "Debian way". A good example would be Apache.
>
> I was typing on my phone, so was going for brevity. It might have been
> better to say apt-get than .deb.



>
>>>> Gentoo's far
>>>> and away the one I prefer, especially for any non trivial server
>>>> configuration. Binary distributions don't work for me (I use these as
>>>> well
>>>> when I don't have a choice); as far as I am concerned the concept is
>>>> almost
>>>> obsolete. I should try Arch though.
>>>
>>> [*Boggle*] I would require a quite spectacular justification if I were
>>> hiring a sysadmin as to why to use Gentoo. I mean really Earth-shaking
>>> stuff.
>>
>> This pervasive fear in the industry of any tool that's not #1 or #2 in
>> popularity is what I was referring to earlier.
>
> If I wanted the most popular, I'd be running Windows!

The principle manifests itself recursively. "I'll take the most popular 
Linux, thanks! The rest can't be relevant to me!"

>
> No, it's not that, although 3rd-party support is an issue. No, it's
> more that I want something stable, conservative, highly consistent
> across different systems, that only changes gradually when it
> absolutely needs to.
>
> That to me seems the /reverse/ of Gentoo.
>
>> It might be related to the
>> idea of "default thinking" referenced in this post:
>> http://designmind.frogdesign.com/blog/the-coming-zombie-apocalypse-small-cheap-devices-will-disrupt-our-old-school-ux-assumptions.htm
>
> I am running out of surfing time! I'll read that and come back.
>
>> As a sysadmin I would choose Gentoo over the frustrations of a system that
>> regularly blocks me from getting things done.
>
> Again, I'd point at Windows or Mac OS X if you want easy. The reasons

OS X has an even worse packaging problem, but I am sure you're familiar 
with it. (Just for the record I neither use or endorse 3rd party PMs on 
OS X. If you're going to have a package manager then it needs to include 
system packages.)

> for Linux are stability, power, software, resources and support, ISTM.
> Customisability is very low on the list on a server. So long as one
> can remove stuff one doesn't want.
>
>>>> The pattern here is very familiar (it pertains to programming languages
>>>> as
>>>> well); the industry is frozen into anachronistic defaults and refuses to
>>>> learn from anything that doesn't happen to be the most popular choice.
>>>> This
>>>> is probably not a huge issue for most/desktop Linux users, but some of us
>>>> who configure servers or development systems need more flexibility.
>>>
>>> Oddly, I agree - but I'm not aware of anything better than
>>> Debian/Ubuntu in this particular area.
>>
>> It's only possible to make that statement if you haven't learned what is
>> different about Gentoo, which introduces a variety of *new* tools and
>> capabilities (see above re fine grained package descriptions). The binary
>> world - with the exception of Arch, I suspect - has hardly moved an inch in
>> the past 15 years, apparently assuming they are the last word, and learning
>> nothing. How can that be good for us?
>
> Ubuntu came out 7Y ago - in October 2004 - and has turned the desktop
> distro world on its head. It is rapidly driving other desktop distros
> to extinction and several of the more interesting rival desktop
> distros are Ubuntu remixes.

Yeah, that's great, but it's not really relevant to my points.

I don't want to run Ubuntu or Fedora or RHEL or Centos on servers if I 
can avoid it -- because I've tried it. Mind you, it can't always be 
avoided. As I say, I walked into a Fedora environment at present place 
of employment, and my VPS provider won't give me FreeBSD.

>
> (E.g. Bodhi, the most significant Enlightenment-based distro in a long
> time. Mint, which is doing more with GNOME 3 than anyone. Xubuntu, a
> big booster for Xfce. Lubuntu, an interesting attempt at a modern
> distro for low-end kit. Even Puppy Linux, the lightest-weight desktop
> distro there is, has moved to an Ubuntu base. Damn Small Linux is
> dead, sadly.)
>
> It is the biggest thing to /ever/ happen to desktop/server Linux, has
> massively increased Linux adoption and use, and it came half way
> through your cited period of no change.

The "no change" was in things like packaging sophistication.

>
> Meanwhile Ubuntu Server is making headway, too, although it is
> technologically very conservative. I know people who prefer it to
> Debian for servers, although I admit, not many.)
>
> So, er, I have to disagree, markedly!
>
> Now this is not to say that I think Ubuntu is perfect - it's not - but
> your statement is demonstrably false, I think.

If you don't understand the differences between it and Ubuntu, I guess 
you just never got to know Gentoo well enough.

--T

>
> You do know the #1 site for Gentoo advocacy, don't you? :?)
>
> http://funroll-loops.info/
>
> ;?)
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 30 08:05:26 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:05:26 -0500
Subject: Only weirdos & crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on
 Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <718C5A02-2D92-4000-B051-EE2B0A527D01@gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <718C5A02-2D92-4000-B051-EE2B0A527D01@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFDC526.2000405@telegraphics.com.au>

On 30/12/11 8:24 AM, David Riley wrote:
> On Dec 30, 2011, at 6:55, Liam Proven<lproven at gmail.com>  wrote:
>
>> The idea of *custom-compiled binaries* with system-specific
>> optimisations that will almost certainly be subtly different from
>> every other user's out there, thus offering a myriad of potential
>> differences in behaviour or tiny incompatibilities with 3rd-party
>> vendors' binaries, drivers, or whatever, on a server, gives me the
>> screaming heebie-jeebies. It is the /absolute *last* thing I'd want/
>> on a server - it is very, *very* undesirable indeed, from my POV,
>> which is why I am, to say the least, curious as to why someone would
>> see this as something they /wanted/!
>
> That may have been the original intent behind Gentoo, and it's
probably why I originally started using it, but I think the real benefit
these days is comfigurability of options. It's nice to be able to
specify (on a global or package level) what options I want to build
with. For example, netatalk for the longest time did not have DHX2 on
Debian/Ubuntu unless youanually downloaded the source RPM and built it
with the crypto. In Gentoo, that sort of thing is generally in a USE flag.

Yes. And the sophistication (and constraint system and solver) has 
improved noticeably over the years. I notice the FreeBSD ports system 
has a little of this flexibility too; to a Gentoo admin it sure felt 
more comfortable to set up than binary Linux. (I had the opportunity to 
compare directly last year, as my VPS provider unfortunately shunted me 
from FreeBSD to Centos. Everything was MUCH more painful in the latter.)

>
> The system is not without its problems, of course; I recently had to
spend quite a while on my home server cleaning out old dependencies that
had accumulated for a long time because I had been unaware of the
magical incantations to do so (because their documentation is rather
non-obvious).

Having used Gentoo on servers and desktops, I agree that it *is* more 
difficult to administer on desktops. But that's what those other 
distributions are for ;-)

--Toby


> - Dave
>



From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de  Fri Dec 30 05:08:15 2011
From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 12:08:15 +0100
Subject: HP1000 Tape Drive Interface
In-Reply-To: <02c501ccc6d9$525d7080$f7185180$@tlabs.ac.za>
References: <02c501ccc6d9$525d7080$f7185180$@tlabs.ac.za>
Message-ID: <4EFD9B9F.60709@iais.fraunhofer.de>

Am 30.12.2011 10:56, schrieb Etienne Vermeulen:
> Hi All,
>
>
>
> In light of the wonderful cache of HP1000 software available now, and not
> having any way to load it onto the machine I have to put my request in
> again. I need a 13181B interface set for the tape drive. I'm happy to pay
> and cover shipping to South Africa. I also have  a 13183 set to swap if
> someone is interested.
>
>
>
> Etienne Vermeulen
>
Considered installing Kermit on both the HP1000 and a PC running simh 
and transferring files through this way?

-- 
Holger


From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 09:48:01 2011
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 16:48:01 +0100
Subject: IBM 360 model 65 docs wanted
Message-ID: <02dc01ccc70a$6a067430$3e135c90$@gmail.com>

A friend of mine who was a software engineer at Digital Equipment
Corporation gave me a console panel for a System/360 model 65 that they had
in their office (the console panel, not the system).

 

I am restoring the console panel, and I'm creating an interface to a PC to
make all the lights and switches work as originally intended. I'm keeping a
blog of my progress at  <http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com>
http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com.

 

I'm now looking for field engineering documentation (hardcopy or scans/pdfs)
in order to make the emulation as faithful as possible to the original.
These are some of the document titles I'm looking for:

 

System/360 Model 65, 2065 Processing Unit, Field Engineering Maintenance
Manual

System/360 Model 65, 2065 Processing Unit, Field Engineering Diagrams Manual

 

System/360 Model 65 Field Engineering Manual of Instruction

System/360 Model 65 Field Engineering Theory of Operation Manual

System/360 Model 65 CPU and Channels Training, Field Engineering Education
Supplementary Course Material

 

The same material for the model 60, 62 or 67 instead of the 65 would help
too, given the similarities between these machines.

 

One thing in particular that I'm looking for that would help a lot is a data
flow diagram showing the register and bus names. Another thing that would be
very useful is a listing of the BCROS microcode.

 

The functional characteristics manual (which is available on Bitsavers)
doesn't offer the level of detail I'd like.

 

Cheers,

 

Camiel

 

 



From ethan.dicks at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 09:54:59 2011
From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 10:54:59 -0500
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
> I do understand that it tends to dominate in the US and very
> US-dominated areas, though, and in the commercial paid-support sphere.

Quite so.

> If I was working as a Linux sysadmin, I expect I'd have to learn RHEL
> or Centos and use it.

>From 2003 through 2010, I used an RHEL or CentOS desktop/laptop every
day to maintain a pile of RHEL or CentOS servers (physical and
virtual).  I bet on RedHat, professionally, starting with RH5.1, and
that made me a lot of money (plus it got me to the South Pole).  My
most recent gig, however, is Ubuntu-Server-centric (there's some RHEL
and CentOS still, but more Solaris than those two combined).  My
present position aside, I see many, many job postings here looking for
RHEL and/or CentOS skills and a much smaller number of posting seeking
Suse experience, and almost nothing else.

I'm not trying to claim RedHat is better, just the most commonly
sought skill-set for Linux admins in the States.  I've had my share of
frustration (especially with trying to use recent versions as a
workstation OS and most especially on laptops), but I think back to
how much "fun" we used to have trying to add hardware to monolithic
4BSD kernels that took 2-4 hours to recompile and how bad it was
trying to port applications and games from a SYSV world into the BSD
world, and modern Linux problems don't seem so hard anymore.

I started with 4BSD on a 2MB VAX-11/750 and Ultrix 1.1 on a 3MB
VAX-11/730.  Lots of improvements since then, but unlike my
compatriots who were fiddling with MS-DOS, the commands and languages
and skills I learned 26 years ago are still relevant to my day-to-day
job (though it's nice to be doing it on hardware that costs hundreds
of dollars rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars - that's a
handy consequence of Moore's Law).

-ethan


From jbmcb1 at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 10:15:18 2011
From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:15:18 -0500
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHG8iGVxN0BuecCWecGEa5cR_LgNkzHMN0Rr3ghK_BGS5Y2gXw@mail.gmail.com>

Gentoo is a great system. I use it on my "Rosetta" machine - a late model
P4 with nearly every type of port and drive - SCSI DATs, Firewire, external
SATA and IDE, ZIP and Jaz, GPIB, Token Ring and ATM cards - with a custom
kernel compiled to access pretty much anything you can plug into it. The
system has a huge chain of dependencies set as I want to support
everything, and everything compiles and works just fine. I even have a
crazy dual-toolchain setup where some libraries are compiled with the Intel
compiler (for a nice 20-40% speed boost on media transcoding) no problems
there either.

I also use regular Ubuntu to play around with, Mythbuntu on a PVR and
Debian on a small file server. I can't say I have any more problems with
Gentoo than on any of my other systems.


From glen.slick at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 10:22:16 2011
From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:22:16 -0800
Subject: Was SC/MP kit PDF, now SDK-51 manuals.
In-Reply-To: <5.0.0.25.2.20111230081529.01c46e10@wheresmymailserver.com>
References: <5.0.0.25.2.20111230081529.01c46e10@wheresmymailserver.com>
Message-ID: <CAM2UOwKna4HyurrJT50rpkkcYk58h__seokZB8b0Hnxz4u2-8Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 30, 2011 2:14 AM, "Wouter" <wrm at retro.co.za> wrote:
>
> I have here the SDK-51 Assembly Manual, which I was planning to scan since
>
> http://manx.classiccmp.org/details.php/47,13105
>
> says it's not online.
>
> If it is actually online, save me the trouble?
>

The scans have been on bitsavers for a couple of years now:

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/8051/SDK-51/

The manx archive died a while back. Richard did some work to restore a
version of the archive files that were lost, but I don't know if any work
was put into updating the index to reflect new content that has become
available online in the last few years.

-Glen


From rickthornquist at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 10:28:24 2011
From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:28:24 -0800
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
Message-ID: <CAL6A5QatP2DLae0KwFK_yeNPsKuY-mOezozZUtqimUA_CS+GTg@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All -

I'm writing a book about Infocom and I'm looking for your help finding
something.

Way back in 1980, Infocom posted an ad in the September 1980 issue of
the DECUS Mini-Tasker (the DECUS RT-11 SIG newsletter). This was the
first ad the Infocom ever produced and I'd like to get a scan of it
for the book.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anyone who kept this
newsletter.  I've contacted a number of people in the DEC community
but still no luck.  Someone pointed me to this forum and said there
might be someone here who could help.

Does anyone here have this newsletter? If not, do you know of someone
who might? If anyone could help me out with this I'd very much
appreciate it.

Thanks!

- Rick Thornquist


From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 12:47:43 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:47:43 +0000
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFY+k1-gTCRACZFW68+MGKakjPR0rV0s0kXaD1h8oEEzA@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 December 2011 15:54, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I do understand that it tends to dominate in the US and very
>> US-dominated areas, though, and in the commercial paid-support sphere.
>
> Quite so.
>
>> If I was working as a Linux sysadmin, I expect I'd have to learn RHEL
>> or Centos and use it.
>
> From 2003 through 2010, I used an RHEL or CentOS desktop/laptop every
> day to maintain a pile of RHEL or CentOS servers (physical and
> virtual). ?I bet on RedHat, professionally, starting with RH5.1, and
> that made me a lot of money (plus it got me to the South Pole).

Those are certainly both good reasons!

I must confess, I have been meaning to try to bring my RH 4-5-6 era
skills back up to date. Every test box I've tried Fedora on it's
failed to install, though (except VMs) and whereas CentOS installed
cleanly it didn't boot. As my motivation is just idle curiosity,
though, I've not really pursued or tried to troubleshoot this. I ought
to.

> My
> most recent gig, however, is Ubuntu-Server-centric (there's some RHEL
> and CentOS still, but more Solaris than those two combined). ?My
> present position aside, I see many, many job postings here looking for
> RHEL and/or CentOS skills and a much smaller number of posting seeking
> Suse experience, and almost nothing else.

Matches what I see in business in the UK, TBH. But then, as my
sysadmin skills are not up to scratch for the modern world - I don't
speak Perl, Python or any other scripting language, I don't know
Nagios or Puppet or anything, and I don't really want to learn any
more - I am not gunning for Linux sysadmin work.

> I'm not trying to claim RedHat is better, just the most commonly
> sought skill-set for Linux admins in the States. ?I've had my share of
> frustration (especially with trying to use recent versions as a
> workstation OS and most especially on laptops), but I think back to
> how much "fun" we used to have trying to add hardware to monolithic
> 4BSD kernels that took 2-4 hours to recompile and how bad it was
> trying to port applications and games from a SYSV world into the BSD
> world, and modern Linux problems don't seem so hard anymore.

I started on SCO Xenix on 286s and later 386s, and on Linux with
Slackware in '95. You're definitely right there, even my that, weedier
comparison!

> I started with 4BSD on a 2MB VAX-11/750 and Ultrix 1.1 on a 3MB
> VAX-11/730. ?Lots of improvements since then, but unlike my
> compatriots who were fiddling with MS-DOS, the commands and languages
> and skills I learned 26 years ago are still relevant to my day-to-day
> job (though it's nice to be doing it on hardware that costs hundreds
> of dollars rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars - that's a
> handy consequence of Moore's Law).

True! I do rather wish I had spent more effort on Unix back then,
myself, I must admit.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 12:49:35 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:49:35 +0000
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac G5
In-Reply-To: <CAHG8iGVxN0BuecCWecGEa5cR_LgNkzHMN0Rr3ghK_BGS5Y2gXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com>
 <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHG8iGVxN0BuecCWecGEa5cR_LgNkzHMN0Rr3ghK_BGS5Y2gXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCHmkmuOZ6NVNigPJ46WfCm+xN4kjqh+E7dD=E4px2qMwQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 December 2011 16:15, Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com> wrote:
> Gentoo is a great system. I use it on my "Rosetta" machine - a late model
> P4 with nearly every type of port and drive - SCSI DATs, Firewire, external
> SATA and IDE, ZIP and Jaz, GPIB, Token Ring and ATM cards - with a custom
> kernel compiled to access pretty much anything you can plug into it. The
> system has a huge chain of dependencies set as I want to support
> everything, and everything compiles and works just fine. I even have a
> crazy dual-toolchain setup where some libraries are compiled with the Intel
> compiler (for a nice 20-40% speed boost on media transcoding) no problems
> there either.
>
> I also use regular Ubuntu to play around with, Mythbuntu on a PVR and
> Debian on a small file server. I can't say I have any more problems with
> Gentoo than on any of my other systems.

I'm not saying it's a /problem/ as such, but I found it fiddly, a lot
of work and the benefits that I have heard about were
performance-related and nothing I'd want myself. My tiny bit of
experience with "emerge" did not impress or appeal to me, and I found
"use" flags a poorly-documented mess of no perceptible benefit.

I can see from comments here that there are non-performance-related
benefits for some people, though.

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From lproven at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 12:53:32 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:53:32 +0000
Subject: IBM 360 model 65 docs wanted
In-Reply-To: <02dc01ccc70a$6a067430$3e135c90$@gmail.com>
References: <02dc01ccc70a$6a067430$3e135c90$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCFC9UpK3myx30Sr-GK_QJKz9seZgcBmKy62Y7n8q6KHuA@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 December 2011 15:48, Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
> A friend of mine who was a software engineer at Digital Equipment
> Corporation gave me a console panel for a System/360 model 65 that they had
> in their office (the console panel, not the system).
>
> I am restoring the console panel, and I'm creating an interface to a PC to
> make all the lights and switches work as originally intended. I'm keeping a
> blog of my progress at ?<http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com>
> http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com.
>
> I'm now looking for field engineering documentation (hardcopy or scans/pdfs)
> in order to make the emulation as faithful as possible to the original.
> These are some of the document titles I'm looking for:
>
>
>
> System/360 Model 65, 2065 Processing Unit, Field Engineering Maintenance
> Manual
>
> System/360 Model 65, 2065 Processing Unit, Field Engineering Diagrams Manual
>
>
>
> System/360 Model 65 Field Engineering Manual of Instruction
>
> System/360 Model 65 Field Engineering Theory of Operation Manual
>
> System/360 Model 65 CPU and Channels Training, Field Engineering Education
> Supplementary Course Material
>
>
>
> The same material for the model 60, 62 or 67 instead of the 65 would help
> too, given the similarities between these machines.
>
> One thing in particular that I'm looking for that would help a lot is a data
> flow diagram showing the register and bus names. Another thing that would be
> very useful is a listing of the BCROS microcode.
>
> The functional characteristics manual (which is available on Bitsavers)
> doesn't offer the level of detail I'd like.

Wow! That is quite some project - and lavishly documented, as well.
Good work so far and good luck with it!

You should talk to Lawrence Wilkinson (ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk) who is
building an FPGA emulation of an early S/360 - a model 30, I think.
Perhaps once he has that working, you could cooperate on a Model 65
version and interface actual hardware to your control panel! :?)

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From tshoppa at wmata.com  Fri Dec 30 13:46:44 2011
From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:46:44 -0500
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
Message-ID: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245117F09C8AA@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>

> Way back in 1980, Infocom posted an ad in the September 1980 issue of
> the DECUS Mini-Tasker (the DECUS RT-11 SIG newsletter). This was the
> first ad the Infocom ever produced and I'd like to get a scan of it
> for the book.
> Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anyone who kept this
> newsletter.  I've contacted a number of people in the DEC community
> but still no luck.  Someone pointed me to this forum and said there
> might be someone here who could help.

John Dundas has this up on the web at:

http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/DEC%20Docs/DECUS/mini-tasker/mt06-4.pdf

You want the bottom of page 47.

Tim.


From rickthornquist at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 13:54:26 2011
From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 11:54:26 -0800
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245117F09C8AA@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
References: <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB87245117F09C8AA@EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>
Message-ID: <CAL6A5QZbXhQLzfsJmPMDK0tcAAV43bv477HO1NOUBXBG3VNLYg@mail.gmail.com>

Tim -

Wow, that's great!  That's exactly what I'm looking for.

Thanks!

- Rick

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Shoppa, Tim <tshoppa at wmata.com> wrote:
>> Way back in 1980, Infocom posted an ad in the September 1980 issue of
>> the DECUS Mini-Tasker (the DECUS RT-11 SIG newsletter). This was the
>> first ad the Infocom ever produced and I'd like to get a scan of it
>> for the book.
>> Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find anyone who kept this
>> newsletter. ?I've contacted a number of people in the DEC community
>> but still no luck. ?Someone pointed me to this forum and said there
>> might be someone here who could help.
>
> John Dundas has this up on the web at:
>
> http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/retro/DEC%20Docs/DECUS/mini-tasker/mt06-4.pdf
>
> You want the bottom of page 47.
>
> Tim.



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 30 14:21:01 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:21:01 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs20Zgr6L+njmcF3muriraqqF--8GKyP57TvoX8g3GqQnhw@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Adrian Stoness" at Dec 29, 11 05:34:49 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rgiwv-000J48C@p850ug1>

> 
> found a mint looking osborne 1 today local computer recyler they had not
> even looked at it yet so i managed to get it for decent price got it home
> opened it up found some cpm disks nice little bonus and a mint looking
> interior
> http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/4927/osborn.jpg
> 
> i tried firing it up and it powers up for fraction of a second when it trys
> to do its power on beep and dies.
> 
> http://youtu.be/WXzI-FIr50w << see here what its doing   (my ipod tuch sure
> is usefull)
> 
> i'm guesing its the power supply but want to make sure befor i tare it
> apart. i've got another one that does weird things that also needs

The only way to know if the PSU it OK is to cvheck the output voltages. 
You may find soem of them on external connectors (for exxample the 
keyboard connector), but it's often easier to take the machine apart and 
chack at the PSU connectors.

Personally, I would never power up an unkopwn machine without taking it 
apart and doing a visaul inspaction of the insides followed by chekcign 
the PSU on dummy load But anyway...

> servicing but one of the face plate screws is striped so unable to get it
> open to look..

That's what drills are for :-)

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Fri Dec 30 14:25:11 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:25:11 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Adrian Stoness" at Dec 29, 11 06:10:02 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rgj0v-000J49C@p850ug1>

> 
> turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've come
> to a new issue.
> 
> when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
> read the disk

Now I don;t know this machine at all, but do I conclude from that that 
you are getting soemthing useful on the screen amd that therefore the 
processor/video is working?

I think I would start at the floppy drive interface connector, simply 
becuase it's a standar, known, plinout. You want to see if the the 
machine is trying to start the floppy drive motor (look at the drive 
select and motor on signals with a logic probe). I'd also check the power 
supply rails. I suspect the 12V rail, needed for the drive motors, is 
also used by the video monitor, but it's not unheard-of for the latter to 
be a separate supply. A voltmeter on the drive power connector will tell 
you for sure.

Could it be the keyboard? You mention pressign the return key. Do you 
know if this is actually doing anything? Could it be keyswitch problems?

-tony


From arcarlini at iee.org  Fri Dec 30 16:00:02 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:00:02 -0000
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <CAL6A5QZbXhQLzfsJmPMDK0tcAAV43bv477HO1NOUBXBG3VNLYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>

Rick Thornquist [rickthornquist at gmail.com] wrote:
> Tim -
> 
> Wow, that's great!  That's exactly what I'm looking for.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> - Rick
> 
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Shoppa, Tim
> <tshoppa at wmata.com> wrote:
>>> Way back in 1980, Infocom posted an ad in the September 1980 issue
>>> of the DECUS Mini-Tasker (the DECUS RT-11 SIG newsletter). This was
>>> the first ad the Infocom ever produced and I'd like to get a scan
>>> of it for the book. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find
>>> anyone who kept this newsletter. ?I've contacted a number of people
>>> in the DEC community but still no luck. ?Someone pointed me to this
>>> forum and said there might be someone here who could help.
>> 
>> John Dundas has this up on the web at:
>> 
>> 
> http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/>
> ~dundas/retro/DEC%20Docs/DECUS/mini-task 
>> er/mt06-4.pdf
>> 
>> You want the bottom of page 47.
>> 


I've tried to reach that site before and failed: it?s still failing for
me now,
although I assume it must have worked for Rick (and presumably Tim).

I assume that I'm in a range of blocked IP addresses: does it work for
anyone else in the UK? (Does anyone have a mirror?)

Thanks

Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org




From sander.reiche at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 16:49:26 2011
From: sander.reiche at gmail.com (Sander Reiche)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:49:26 +0100
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>
References: <CAL6A5QZbXhQLzfsJmPMDK0tcAAV43bv477HO1NOUBXBG3VNLYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>
Message-ID: <CACStewZtjHsD9VKeNMQ=1Cf=4PQLq6_5ziD7QWr6qGdhfVRQ4Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:00 PM,  <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote:
> Rick Thornquist [rickthornquist at gmail.com] wrote:
>> Tim -
>>
>> Wow, that's great! ?That's exactly what I'm looking for.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> - Rick
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 11:46 AM, Shoppa, Tim
>> <tshoppa at wmata.com> wrote:
>>>> Way back in 1980, Infocom posted an ad in the September 1980 issue
>>>> of the DECUS Mini-Tasker (the DECUS RT-11 SIG newsletter). This was
>>>> the first ad the Infocom ever produced and I'd like to get a scan
>>>> of it for the book. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to find
>>>> anyone who kept this newsletter. ?I've contacted a number of people
>>>> in the DEC community but still no luck. ?Someone pointed me to this
>>>> forum and said there might be someone here who could help.
>>>
>>> John Dundas has this up on the web at:
>>>
>>>
>> http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/>
>> ~dundas/retro/DEC%20Docs/DECUS/mini-task
>>> er/mt06-4.pdf
>>>
>>> You want the bottom of page 47.
>>>
>
>
> I've tried to reach that site before and failed: it?s still failing for
> me now,
> although I assume it must have worked for Rick (and presumably Tim).
>
> I assume that I'm in a range of blocked IP addresses: does it work for
> anyone else in the UK? (Does anyone have a mirror?)
>
> Thanks
>
> Antonio
> arcarlini at iee.org
>
>
Doesn't work for the Netherlands as well. It's an .edu right? Why
would it block anything at all?

Kind regards,

Sander Reiche
-- 
~ UNIX is basically a simple operating system,
? ? ? ? ? ?but you have to be a genius to understand its simplicity. ~ dmr



From robert at irrelevant.com  Fri Dec 30 17:18:28 2011
From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:18:28 +0000
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>
References: <CAL6A5QZbXhQLzfsJmPMDK0tcAAV43bv477HO1NOUBXBG3VNLYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>
Message-ID: <CAApARttoRWF1kE2hWd1kxtjc73v=nXHVEMN-Y_c9nL6G16kdgA@mail.gmail.com>

On 30 December 2011 22:00,  <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote:
> I've tried to reach that site before and failed: it?s still failing for
> me now,
> although I assume it must have worked for Rick (and presumably Tim).
>
> I assume that I'm in a range of blocked IP addresses: does it work for
> anyone else in the UK? (Does anyone have a mirror?)

Confirmed that it fails for me in the UK too, just sits there and
eventually times out.  But it loads up fine via a US VPN.  (Or at
least that particular link does.)   Why block anybody?  Not even a
redirect to an explanation.

Rob



From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk  Fri Dec 30 17:33:09 2011
From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:33:09 +0000
Subject: IBM 360 model 65 docs wanted
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCFC9UpK3myx30Sr-GK_QJKz9seZgcBmKy62Y7n8q6KHuA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <02dc01ccc70a$6a067430$3e135c90$@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFC9UpK3myx30Sr-GK_QJKz9seZgcBmKy62Y7n8q6KHuA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1325287989.31824.35.camel@entasis>

On Fri, 2011-12-30 at 18:53 +0000, Liam Proven wrote:
> On 30 December 2011 15:48, Camiel Vanderhoeven <iamcamiel at gmail.com> wrote:
> > A friend of mine who was a software engineer at Digital Equipment
> > Corporation gave me a console panel for a System/360 model 65 that they had
> > in their office (the console panel, not the system).
> >
> > I am restoring the console panel, and I'm creating an interface to a PC to
> > make all the lights and switches work as originally intended. I'm keeping a
> > blog of my progress at  <http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com>
> > http://ibm360-console.blogspot.com.
> >
> <snip>
> > One thing in particular that I'm looking for that would help a lot is a data
> > flow diagram showing the register and bus names. Another thing that would be
> > very useful is a listing of the BCROS microcode.
> >
> > The functional characteristics manual (which is available on Bitsavers)
> > doesn't offer the level of detail I'd like.
> 
> Wow! That is quite some project - and lavishly documented, as well.
> Good work so far and good luck with it!
> 
> You should talk to Lawrence Wilkinson (ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk) who is
> building an FPGA emulation of an early S/360 - a model 30, I think.
> Perhaps once he has that working, you could cooperate on a Model 65
> version and interface actual hardware to your control panel! :?)
> 
(Thanks Liam)

Well done for getting this far!

I was lucky to get microcode listings for the /30, and the internal
dataflow is documented in the manuals available on BitSavers.

It's one of these things where you have to decide how faithful you want
your re-creation to be.  Are you going to attempt to model the
multi-function lights, so you can flip the rollers around?  Do you want
an entire CPU hiding behind that panel, or just something to flicker the
lights appropriately?  Some of the lights would be for the channels -
are you going to model those, and if so, what about the peripherals?
And so on....!

Another possible source of info:
http://www.glennsmuseum.com/ibm/ibm.html

[Coincidentally, I have been doing some work on my emulator today, and
have got the initialise-storage-from-platform-flash working.  That,
together with using 64k external RAM rather than the FPGA's internal
RAM, makes it a bit more useful as it is now possible to build FPGA
images containing an initial RAM image without recompiling all the
VHDL.]

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                                 lawrence at ljw.me.uk
The IBM 360/30 page                       http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360



From tdk.knight at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 17:59:55 2011
From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:59:55 -0600
Subject: osborne 1
In-Reply-To: <m1Rgj0v-000J49C@p850ug1>
References: <CAA3rs21u4-xERgr0q70NgV0xhvv_xKcUi52D7ys0pvuRncGJUA@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1Rgj0v-000J49C@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAA3rs20JZtiVKQO+bjRFQFghRqqW77v+YX-pf=KiYHvFV3uSmw@mail.gmail.com>

no idea i need to pull my spare keyboard outa storeage though this project
is about to get put aside for next 18days as i will be taking off to work
earlyer then expected txs for the suggestions

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 2:25 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> >
> > turns out it does power up i just didn't wait long enough though i've
> come
> > to a new issue.
> >
> > when i hit return once i put the floppy in the drive it does not try to
> > read the disk
>
> Now I don;t know this machine at all, but do I conclude from that that
> you are getting soemthing useful on the screen amd that therefore the
> processor/video is working?
>
> I think I would start at the floppy drive interface connector, simply
> becuase it's a standar, known, plinout. You want to see if the the
> machine is trying to start the floppy drive motor (look at the drive
> select and motor on signals with a logic probe). I'd also check the power
> supply rails. I suspect the 12V rail, needed for the drive motors, is
> also used by the video monitor, but it's not unheard-of for the latter to
> be a separate supply. A voltmeter on the drive power connector will tell
> you for sure.
>
> Could it be the keyboard? You mention pressign the return key. Do you
> know if this is actually doing anything? Could it be keyswitch problems?
>
> -tony
>


From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Fri Dec 30 18:48:03 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 19:48:03 -0500
Subject: Only crazy people would pick Gentoo - Re: Linux on Power Mac
 G5
In-Reply-To: <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAMTenCHHDiRzDerTCZXZ8+feUm-W1pfrHUhps-B51RBZgT3tVA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB424F.9030308@neurotica.com> <4EFBBF1B.8010700@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEoHSa7Qh508yrV2KjmR9D+sGi6aexM_JwmKUt4CrFU3g@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFBDA46.5030609@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCFSZyqYbSvRe5haK9_s6N+6BRKcwyuj65vf5T3Lqaymfg@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFC6F64.4030005@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCEDw0cqVXb3DJkSLc_5VQbVsQBH3o1FNw5a23aETGjQng@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFD0F4F.6080509@telegraphics.com.au>
 <CAMTenCES8kOG=sZgvpKNkNTb4mkS1YoWu_nnt0J=T249V6ecFg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAALmim=eZWB8OtuJ+2728xcZ-QDDdpu0bZ9vmqTKDHNiXXmBzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFE5BC3.3090301@telegraphics.com.au>

On 30/12/11 10:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 6:55 AM, Liam Proven<lproven at gmail.com>  wrote:
>> I do understand that it tends to dominate in the US and very
>> US-dominated areas, though, and in the commercial paid-support sphere.
>
> Quite so.
>
>> If I was working as a Linux sysadmin, I expect I'd have to learn RHEL
>> or Centos and use it.
>
>> From 2003 through 2010, I used an RHEL or CentOS desktop/laptop every
> day to maintain a pile of RHEL or CentOS servers (physical and
> virtual).  ...
>
> I'm not trying to claim RedHat is better, just the most commonly
> sought skill-set for Linux admins in the States.

Yes, that may be true, but says little about the relative sophistication 
of the systems (as I've been laboriously trying to show :)

It says something about the lack of imagination and insecurity of hiring 
mentality that insists on hiring PHP devs when what they need are 
software engineers. Any decent sysadmin can move between systems fairly 
easily.

 > ...
>
> I started with 4BSD on a 2MB VAX-11/750 and Ultrix 1.1 on a 3MB
> VAX-11/730.  Lots of improvements since then, but unlike my
> compatriots who were fiddling with MS-DOS, the commands and languages
> and skills I learned 26 years ago are still relevant to my day-to-day
> job

That is an under-appreciated fact about Unix :)

What next -- people will say programming and century-old math are related?!

--Toby

 > (though it's nice to be doing it on hardware that costs hundreds
> of dollars rather than hundreds of thousands of dollars - that's a
> handy consequence of Moore's Law).
>
> -ethan
>



From pete at dunnington.plus.com  Fri Dec 30 19:06:05 2011
From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 01:06:05 +0000
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <CAApARttoRWF1kE2hWd1kxtjc73v=nXHVEMN-Y_c9nL6G16kdgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL6A5QZbXhQLzfsJmPMDK0tcAAV43bv477HO1NOUBXBG3VNLYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>
 <CAApARttoRWF1kE2hWd1kxtjc73v=nXHVEMN-Y_c9nL6G16kdgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFE5FFD.3020400@dunnington.plus.com>

Rob wrote:
> On 30 December 2011 22:00,  <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote:
>> I've tried to reach that site before and failed: it?s still failing for
>> me now,
>> although I assume it must have worked for Rick (and presumably Tim).
>>
>> I assume that I'm in a range of blocked IP addresses: does it work for
>> anyone else in the UK? (Does anyone have a mirror?)
> 
> Confirmed that it fails for me in the UK too, just sits there and
> eventually times out.  But it loads up fine via a US VPN.  (Or at
> least that particular link does.)   Why block anybody?  Not even a
> redirect to an explanation.

I can't get to it from home, but I can from york.ac.uk
I wonder if it's an unofficial server with restriction to academic 
sites?  At York, we often put restrictions in place on web servers other 
than the official one, as a matter of curse.

Anyway, for a short while, you can grab it from
http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/tmp/mt06-4.pdf

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Fri Dec 30 19:26:33 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:26:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <CAL6A5QatP2DLae0KwFK_yeNPsKuY-mOezozZUtqimUA_CS+GTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL6A5QatP2DLae0KwFK_yeNPsKuY-mOezozZUtqimUA_CS+GTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112301724530.1771@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011, Rick Thornquist wrote:

> Hi All -
>
> I'm writing a book about Infocom and I'm looking for your help finding
> something.

I see you've already located that newsletter.  Have you posted to 
rec.arts.int-fiction, rec.games.int-fiction, and infiction.org about your 
book effort?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From david at classiccomputing.com  Fri Dec 30 19:26:50 2011
From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:26:50 -0500
Subject: John Sculley interview part 1 posted
Message-ID: <CC627707-B4D6-4844-9BD0-7A43766ACA84@classiccomputing.com>

Everyone,

Please have a listen when you can. I'm working on part 2 this evening.

Let me know what you think of the interview, and hope you'll check out the whole thing!

http://bit.ly/tmoDTL

Best,

David Greelish, Computer Historian
President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society

Classic Computing
The Home of Computer History Nostalgia
http://www.classiccomputing.com

Classic Computing Blog
Retro Computing Roundtable podcast
"Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast
Classic Computing Show video podcast



From rickthornquist at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 19:37:15 2011
From: rickthornquist at gmail.com (Rick Thornquist)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:37:15 -0800
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112301724530.1771@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <CAL6A5QatP2DLae0KwFK_yeNPsKuY-mOezozZUtqimUA_CS+GTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112301724530.1771@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <CAL6A5QZb3wi382imkT0=vq1rZ3rLczMre49HkV=rsM34Dkwefg@mail.gmail.com>

David -

Re: The Brian Moriarty emails.  I'd love to see them.  I'm trying to
accumulate as research as possible for the book and every bit help.

I did find the newsletter.  Yay!

Besides requests for assistance with one thing or another, I really
haven't posted publicly about the book.  I want to wait until it's
pretty much done before I make a big public announcement.

- Rick

On Fri, Dec 30, 2011 at 5:26 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
> On Fri, 30 Dec 2011, Rick Thornquist wrote:
>
>> Hi All -
>>
>> I'm writing a book about Infocom and I'm looking for your help finding
>> something.
>
>
> I see you've already located that newsletter. ?Have you posted to
> rec.arts.int-fiction, rec.games.int-fiction, and infiction.org about your
> book effort?
>
>
> --
> David Griffith
> dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
>
> A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
> Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
> A: Top-posting.
> Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?



From billdeg at degnanco.com  Fri Dec 30 20:05:23 2011
From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:05:23 -0500
Subject: 4x16K Datacraft core memory rack units available
Message-ID: <201112310205.pBV25eqC037667@billy.ezwind.net>


4x16K Datacraft core memory rack units available (the 5th slot in the 
rack is for the controller) with Datacraft DC-38 Core and associated 
power supply, contact me privately if interested.

Photos: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/datacraft/

(I believe I have it right that they're 4 x16K cores.)

These are general purpose core that can be used in more than just the 
Burroughs minis they came from.  I know for example that a rack like 
this could be used with an S-100 computer or 8008 system.

The photo of the individual core card with the cover removed is an 
extra, not part of the populated racks.

I am located in Landenberg, PA USA roughly between Baltimore and Philadelphia.

Bill




From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Fri Dec 30 20:13:23 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:13:23 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <CAL6A5QZb3wi382imkT0=vq1rZ3rLczMre49HkV=rsM34Dkwefg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAL6A5QatP2DLae0KwFK_yeNPsKuY-mOezozZUtqimUA_CS+GTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112301724530.1771@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <CAL6A5QZb3wi382imkT0=vq1rZ3rLczMre49HkV=rsM34Dkwefg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112301805390.1771@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011, Rick Thornquist wrote:

> David -
>
> Re: The Brian Moriarty emails.  I'd love to see them.  I'm trying to
> accumulate as research as possible for the book and every bit help.
>
> I did find the newsletter.  Yay!
>
> Besides requests for assistance with one thing or another, I really
> haven't posted publicly about the book.  I want to wait until it's
> pretty much done before I make a big public announcement.

I forgot to add that the Moriarty emails are available for anyone to see 
at the bottom of the PORTING file in the Unix Frotz 2.43 tarball.  Debian 
puts the file at /usr/share/doc/frotz/PORTING.gz.  If you require the 
whole headers for some reason, please email me privately.

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu


From wdonzelli at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 21:10:36 2011
From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:10:36 -0500
Subject: 4x16K Datacraft core memory rack units available
In-Reply-To: <201112310205.pBV25eqC037667@billy.ezwind.net>
References: <201112310205.pBV25eqC037667@billy.ezwind.net>
Message-ID: <CANij+ddRGAEoeCvuaBe950vE4ayy5JH7C2+vmeGUReAbgXLdYQ@mail.gmail.com>

> These are general purpose core that can be used in more than just the
> Burroughs minis they came from. ?I know for example that a rack like this
> could be used with an S-100 computer or 8008 system.

What Burroughs minis?

--
Will



From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG  Fri Dec 30 21:14:48 2011
From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:14:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: John Sculley interview part 1 posted
In-Reply-To: <CC627707-B4D6-4844-9BD0-7A43766ACA84@classiccomputing.com>
References: <CC627707-B4D6-4844-9BD0-7A43766ACA84@classiccomputing.com>
Message-ID: <201112310314.WAA25242@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>

> Please have a listen when you can.  [...]

> http://bit.ly/tmoDTL

I had a look, but lynx didn't show me anything useful.  Manually
fetching and looking at it, I don't see anything amid the blizzard of
HTML that I recognize as a reference to a soundfile - y'know, something
listenable on classic computers (many of which, eg, my SPARCs, do have
sound output hardware).  But I'm probably missing something, because I
also see some things that look like errors to my minimal knowledge of
HTML, things like <a href='$manage-app-url$'>.

So, where's the soundfile hiding?

/~\ The ASCII				  Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTML		mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!	     7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B


From innfoclassics at gmail.com  Fri Dec 30 21:41:14 2011
From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:41:14 -0600
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFB35A0.26487.14103A0@cclist.sydex.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EFB35A0.26487.14103A0@cclist.sydex.com>
Message-ID: <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA@mail.gmail.com>

The seller sent me this info.

Hi the info i have is a Quantum Q2000 model #Q2020 serial# 6074 dated 2-9-82
scanner#1
cyclinder head drive is error free
the printer has a plate that says novell data systems
model 800S
serial # 2141
vac115
hertz60
made in USA
i havent gotten to the manuels and floppys yet i will try to send you
some pictures. thanks stan


I ask for info off the disks....

Enclosed is the info off the manuals and diskettes the pictures will
follow.thanks stan


Novell 2010 system operators manual preliminary
dated dec. 7 1981
first in its class of desktop computers
15 inch display winchester drive and cp/m operating system

Supercale manual, diskette unopened by sorcim
licenced fmt IBM 3740 serial 100-801 ver 1.04
dated 7-1981 plus registration card

Micropro Datastar unopened
Datastar 1.101 diskette and manual
DS7307KS plus registration card dated 9-23-80

Supersort 1.6 Operators Handbook and programmers guide
Dated 9-30-81
wordstar for Nexus 1 installation manual

I am beginning to think he is a real seller, misguided about the price.

Paxton
-- 
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA


From legalize at xmission.com  Fri Dec 30 21:59:33 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 20:59:33 -0700
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EFB35A0.26487.14103A0@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1Rgq6X-0003dd-7v@shell.xmission.com>


In article <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA at mail.gmail.com>,
    Paxton Hoag <innfoclassics at gmail.com> writes:

> I am beginning to think he is a real seller, misguided about the price.

That's what I always thought.  People think that just because
something is old and rare and was once expensive, that it must still
be worth a lot of money.

I used to see this all the time when people brought in their beat-up
comic books to the comic store where I worked.  Them: "But it's old!
It's from the 60s!" Me: "But it's beat to hell and not worth that much
in mint condition."  At least then I could refer them to the
Overstreet price guide to back up my opinion.  There isn't enouhg of a
market for vintage computers to have a reliable price guide.  There's
that one vintage computer book that has prices in it, but they're all
the prices of "here at MIT we are tripping over VT100s in the gutter
on every corner" variety.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From g-wright at att.net  Fri Dec 30 23:46:59 2011
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 21:46:59 -0800 (PST)
Subject: SD 8" Altos disk writing problems
Message-ID: <1325310419.12700.YahooMailRC@web83803.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Well I got around  to setting up another computer with a
Buslogic Bt-542B SCSI controller. It uses a DP 8473 floppy
controller.  Using  Image Disk,  it reads the Altos disk with out
errors, but chokes on writing one.  I get write Error No Sector  on
every sector. Drive is a Tandon  TM848 E, tried another 
of the same drives with the same results.  Of coarse I tried
a few new floppies.  The SD test program says the controller
can work with SD disks.

Any Ideas ??

- Jerry

Jerry Wright
g-wright @att.net


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 31 00:43:21 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:43:21 -0800
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
Message-ID: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>

Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80 
BASIC?

What I've got running at the moment is a mongrel IMSAI 8080 with a Z80, 
48K of working memory and a serial port.  My eventual goal is to get 
CP/M running on it (I have a Cromemco 64FDC -- anyone know of either an 
official CP/M for this or know of a BIOS that supports this controller 
before I start writing my own?) but for the time being I thought it 
would be fun to get a BASIC running on it.

The catch is I need something I can adapt to the serial I/O on the 
Cromemco controller -- so something that I can pretty easily modify is 
of course preferable.  (I'm not opposed to manually hacking up a binary 
but having an official source listing to start with would save time :))

I started looking at the IMSAI 8K basic listing but there's a fair 
amount of hardware-specific I/O code in it scattered throughout so I'm 
not thrilled about modifying it... (and the only source listing I can 
find is in a PDF, which doesn't help any...)

Thanks,
Josh


From pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 02:40:41 2011
From: pu1bzz.listas at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza - Listas)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 06:40:41 -0200
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <063401ccc798$04caae90$020a14ac@tababook>

> I started looking at the IMSAI 8K basic listing but there's a fair 
> amount of hardware-specific I/O code in it scattered throughout so I'm 
> not thrilled about modifying it... (and the only source listing I can 
> find is in a PDF, which doesn't help any...)

    Adobe Acrobat X can OCR it and may help


From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org  Sat Dec 31 03:38:07 2011
From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis Kotlowy)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:08:07 +1030
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <201112312008.08018.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org>

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 05:13:21 PM Josh Dersch wrote:
> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80
> BASIC?
> 
> What I've got running at the moment is a mongrel IMSAI 8080 with a Z80,
> 48K of working memory and a serial port.  My eventual goal is to get
> CP/M running on it (I have a Cromemco 64FDC -- anyone know of either an
> official CP/M for this or know of a BIOS that supports this controller
> before I start writing my own?) but for the time being I thought it
> would be fun to get a BASIC running on it.
> 
> The catch is I need something I can adapt to the serial I/O on the
> Cromemco controller -- so something that I can pretty easily modify is
> of course preferable.  (I'm not opposed to manually hacking up a binary
> but having an official source listing to start with would save time :))
> 
> I started looking at the IMSAI 8K basic listing but there's a fair
> amount of hardware-specific I/O code in it scattered throughout so I'm
> not thrilled about modifying it... (and the only source listing I can
> find is in a PDF, which doesn't help any...)
> 
> Thanks,
> Josh

You could probably modify some of the the initialisation code from Microsoft 
BASIC: http://www.schorn.ch/cpm/zip/altsw.zip

Looking at a z80dasm disassembly, it's a bit of a mess (naturally), but there 
is a commented disassembled version of 4k BASIC:
http://web.archive.org/web/20011211233332/www.rjh.org.uk/altair/4k/index2.html

Which serial card are you using? Perhaps it could be modified a little to 
behave more like an Altair SIO card.

Alexis.


From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de  Sat Dec 31 03:41:33 2011
From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:41:33 +0100 (CET)
Subject: HP1000 Tape Drive Interface
In-Reply-To: <4EFD9B9F.60709@iais.fraunhofer.de>
References: <02c501ccc6d9$525d7080$f7185180$@tlabs.ac.za>
 <4EFD9B9F.60709@iais.fraunhofer.de>
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.02.1112311036390.19311@linuxserv.home>

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011, Holger Veit wrote:
> Considered installing Kermit on both the HP1000 and a PC running simh and 
> transferring files through this way?

There's only one Kermit (AFAIK) for the HP1000, and it runs only under 
RTE6/VM and probably needs a CI filesystem. At least it requires a 
well-equipped machine with enough memory and disc space to store the 
images and to unpack the archives (in case of TF/tar or FST files).

Christian


From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu  Sat Dec 31 03:50:58 2011
From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 01:50:58 -0800 (PST)
Subject: scanning and conversion questions
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>


Since several people here do this kind of thing, I figured I'd ask here.

I'm trying my hand at scanning stuff to PDF.  The only thing I seem to 
find for doing this in Linux is Simple Simple Scan.  I'm scanning in photo 
mode because text mode is unacceptably grainy.  My problem now is 
converting the resulting jpg into a pdf.  ImageMagick is the obvious tool 
for this, but no matter what I do, the resulting pdf is grainy.  How can I 
tell ImageMagick to not diddle with the quality?

-- 
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu

A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?


From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 05:18:52 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:18:52 +0000
Subject: John Sculley interview part 1 posted
In-Reply-To: <CC627707-B4D6-4844-9BD0-7A43766ACA84@classiccomputing.com>
References: <CC627707-B4D6-4844-9BD0-7A43766ACA84@classiccomputing.com>
Message-ID: <CALfYgtkHYGfkLtKNyeqNPgPb-3nNt2n4cr3jSj4fBgZ06EYQxQ@mail.gmail.com>

I listened for the first 5 minutes I got bored,
Did it need music with interruptions at the lead in.
At 5 minutes the guest has still not had chance to say anything the
interviewer needs to get the guest to speak and not provide all the
history up front that has been in public domain for a long time.

44 minutes looks a long time to sit and listen to something, perhaps
some editing is required.

Dave Caroline


From arcarlini at iee.org  Sat Dec 31 05:35:57 2011
From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:35:57 -0000
Subject: scanning and conversion questions
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <9586467B685849F792CA0C405FECF717@ANTONIOPC>

David Griffith [dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu] wrote:
> Since several people here do this kind of thing, I figured
> I'd ask here.
> 
> I'm trying my hand at scanning stuff to PDF.  The only thing
> I seem to
> find for doing this in Linux is Simple Simple Scan.  I'm scanning in
> photo mode because text mode is unacceptably grainy.  My problem now
> is converting the resulting jpg into a pdf.  ImageMagick is the
> obvious tool for this, but no matter what I do, the resulting pdf is
> grainy.  How can I
> tell ImageMagick to not diddle with the quality?

The first thing to say id that if you are scanning text JPEG is not what
you want.
You probably want TIFF, specifically G4 encoded bi-level (i.e. B&W
rather than
grey scale). If there are photographs then you might want 8-bit grey
scale
(although I've very rarely found it to make any difference, other than
to
file size).

I tend to scan @ 600dpi but anything above 400dpi seems visually
acceptable
(to me, I've no idea what anyone else thinks).

If you have colour photographs then you probably want JPEG, but only for
those
pages. For DEC manuals, I've mostly found that only the covers need
colour
scanning. There are some software manuals that have mostly black text
with the
occasional smattering of colour (or worse, blocks of text with a
background colour)
but I've never found a good way of handling those and preserving the
colour.

As for the actual scanning, I'm afraid I cannot help: my scanner
delivers the
resulting TIFF-wrapped-in-PDF via FTP :-)

Antonio





From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 06:32:50 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:32:50 +0000
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <c70bb4abd281fc9186f148d3fb7f8f87@mdfs.net>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
 <c70bb4abd281fc9186f148d3fb7f8f87@mdfs.net>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCH-F8vRqXdTh8e3QJEzJtLG=wyv4gZO3pnbR2-rgKd=-w@mail.gmail.com>

On 31 December 2011 10:33, J.G.Harston <jgh at mdfs.net> wrote:
> Josh Dersch wrote:
>>
>> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80
>> BASIC?
>
>
> BBC BASIC: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/Z80/

Certainly that's what *I* was going to recommend, but I didn't know if
source was available.

BBC BASIC was far & away the best BASIC of the 1980s and one of the
best BASIC interpreters ever. Those who condemn BASIC as a crappy or
crippled language merely show that they've never seen the good ones.

There were other BASICs worthy of attention - I retain a soft spot for
Beta BASIC on the ZX Spectrum, and thus MasterBASIC on the SAM Coup?,
and some of the "big computer" BASICs such as MICROS~1 QuickBASIC were
actually pretty good - but BBC BASIC wasn't a late-period product, it
was there right at the start in the very early 1980s and it runs on
almost anything: BBC Micro, Archimedes, Sinclair Z88, Amstrad
NC100/150/200, 6502, Z80, CP/M, Spectrum, MS-DOS, Windows, etc.

There's a compatible FOSS interpreter, too, Brandy BASIC, but it's not
as quick - BBC BASIC is also one of the fastest, if not *the* fastest,
interpreted BASICs ever. Possibly one of the fastest interpreters
ever.

The ARM chip was originally simulated, and its instruction set worked
out, in the form of a BBC BASIC program, although this is probably old
news to CCmpers.

</fanboy>

-- 
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884



From ajp166 at verizon.net  Sat Dec 31 08:11:13 2011
From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:11:13 -0500
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EFF1801.9050709@verizon.net>

On 12/31/2011 01:43 AM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80 
> BASIC?
>
> What I've got running at the moment is a mongrel IMSAI 8080 with a 
> Z80, 48K of working memory and a serial port.  My eventual goal is to 
> get CP/M running on it (I have a Cromemco 64FDC -- anyone know of 
> either an official CP/M for this or know of a BIOS that supports this 
> controller before I start writing my own?) but for the time being I 
> thought it would be fun to get a BASIC running on it.
>
The only bios that would work with a 64FDC is a Bios from a Cormemco S80 
system.  You might need the boot rom too unless it's
part of the 64FDC.

Just a reminder..  The CP/M BIOS _IS_NOT_ the same as PC bios.  There is 
no assumed BIOS on S100 crates.  The BIOS is interated into CP/M
after its developed for the hardware in question (specifically FDC and 
terminal IO).  If you do not have the hardware exactly the same as a
Known system your in the business of writing your or or if you lucky and 
have sources modifying to match what you have.

To make life easy you need the Comemco standard IO Card and FDC.  Whos 
Z80 board and what ram are not critical unless you are running
CP/M+ (AKA CP/M3) with the banked memory option then it gets more 
complicated.

> The catch is I need something I can adapt to the serial I/O on the 
> Cromemco controller -- so something that I can pretty easily modify is 
> of course preferable.  (I'm not opposed to manually hacking up a 
> binary but having an official source listing to start with would save 
> time :))
>

Find CP/M for the Cormemco, thats easiest.


> I started looking at the IMSAI 8K basic listing but there's a fair 
> amount of hardware-specific I/O code in it scattered throughout so I'm 
> not thrilled about modifying it... (and the only source listing I can 
> find is in a PDF, which doesn't help any...)
>

there isn't that much code to fix it's all centered around the terminal 
IO and the routines are conin, conout, and CtrlC and they are trivial.
Load the code, use the front panel to see where it's looping and look 
for the IN and OUT instructions. hand disassemble the 20 or so bytes
and you have the routine(s) to be fixed.  Usual fix is topoint to the 
right status register, Data port and test the right bits for ready.


Allison


> Thanks,
> Josh
>



From jgh at mdfs.net  Sat Dec 31 04:33:14 2011
From: jgh at mdfs.net (J.G.Harston)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:33:14 +0000
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <c70bb4abd281fc9186f148d3fb7f8f87@mdfs.net>

Josh Dersch wrote:
> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80 
> BASIC?

BBC BASIC: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/Z80/

-- 
J.G.Harston - jgh at mdfs.net - mdfs.net/jgh


From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de  Sat Dec 31 05:44:22 2011
From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:44:22 +0100
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <4EFEF596.2070109@iais.fraunhofer.de>

Am 31.12.2011 07:43, schrieb Josh Dersch:
> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80 
> BASIC?
>
> What I've got running at the moment is a mongrel IMSAI 8080 with a 
> Z80, 48K of working memory and a serial port.  My eventual goal is to 
> get CP/M running on it (I have a Cromemco 64FDC -- anyone know of 
> either an official CP/M for this or know of a BIOS that supports this 
> controller before I start writing my own?) but for the time being I 
> thought it would be fun to get a BASIC running on it.
>
> The catch is I need something I can adapt to the serial I/O on the 
> Cromemco controller -- so something that I can pretty easily modify is 
> of course preferable.  (I'm not opposed to manually hacking up a 
> binary but having an official source listing to start with would save 
> time :))
>
> I started looking at the IMSAI 8K basic listing but there's a fair 
> amount of hardware-specific I/O code in it scattered throughout so I'm 
> not thrilled about modifying it... (and the only source listing I can 
> find is in a PDF, which doesn't help any...)
You might look at TDL 12K Zapple Basic, which has a small jump table at 
the beginning to call the standard CON/RDR/PUN-Routines of CP/M. 
Originally this talked to the Z80 Zapple monitor, but it can be easily 
adapted to anything. There is IIRC no I/O handling scattered through the 
code.

-- 
Holger



From rich.cini at verizon.net  Sat Dec 31 08:35:44 2011
From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:35:44 -0500
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH-F8vRqXdTh8e3QJEzJtLG=wyv4gZO3pnbR2-rgKd=-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB248623.3E39%rich.cini@verizon.net>

Josh --

	There are a few BASICS that I can think of: TinyBASIC, Denver BASIC,
Lawrence Livermore BASIC, and MINOL TinyBASIC. Some require working disk
drives to load/save (and thus, CP/M), but if you get them working you can
just use your laptop to capture a listing (the "save") and re-upload it
(like typing it in, the "load").Not 100% elegant, but it works.

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.altair32.com
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini




On 12/31/11 7:32 AM, "Liam Proven" <lproven at gmail.com> wrote:

>On 31 December 2011 10:33, J.G.Harston <jgh at mdfs.net> wrote:
>> Josh Dersch wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80
>>> BASIC?
>>
>>
>> BBC BASIC: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/Z80/
>
>Certainly that's what *I* was going to recommend, but I didn't know if
>source was available.
>
>BBC BASIC was far & away the best BASIC of the 1980s and one of the
>best BASIC interpreters ever. Those who condemn BASIC as a crappy or
>crippled language merely show that they've never seen the good ones.
>
>There were other BASICs worthy of attention - I retain a soft spot for
>Beta BASIC on the ZX Spectrum, and thus MasterBASIC on the SAM Coup?,
>and some of the "big computer" BASICs such as MICROS~1 QuickBASIC were
>actually pretty good - but BBC BASIC wasn't a late-period product, it
>was there right at the start in the very early 1980s and it runs on
>almost anything: BBC Micro, Archimedes, Sinclair Z88, Amstrad
>NC100/150/200, 6502, Z80, CP/M, Spectrum, MS-DOS, Windows, etc.
>
>There's a compatible FOSS interpreter, too, Brandy BASIC, but it's not
>as quick - BBC BASIC is also one of the fastest, if not *the* fastest,
>interpreted BASICs ever. Possibly one of the fastest interpreters
>ever.
>
>The ARM chip was originally simulated, and its instruction set worked
>out, in the form of a BBC BASIC program, although this is probably old
>news to CCmpers.
>
></fanboy>
>
>-- 
>Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
>Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
>MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
>Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
>





From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 31 08:56:01 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:56:01 -0500
Subject: TIFF bilevel G4, 200-400dpi - Re: scanning and conversion questions
In-Reply-To: <9586467B685849F792CA0C405FECF717@ANTONIOPC>
References: <9586467B685849F792CA0C405FECF717@ANTONIOPC>
Message-ID: <4EFF2281.2040700@telegraphics.com.au>

On 31/12/11 6:35 AM, arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
> David Griffith [dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu] wrote:
>> Since several people here do this kind of thing, I figured
>> I'd ask here.
>>
>> I'm trying my hand at scanning stuff to PDF.  The only thing
>> I seem to
>> find for doing this in Linux is Simple Simple Scan.  I'm scanning in
>> photo mode because text mode is unacceptably grainy.  My problem now
>> is converting the resulting jpg into a pdf.  ImageMagick is the
>> obvious tool for this, but no matter what I do, the resulting pdf is
>> grainy.  How can I
>> tell ImageMagick to not diddle with the quality?
>
> The first thing to say id that if you are scanning text JPEG is not what
> you want.
> You probably want TIFF, specifically G4 encoded bi-level (i.e. B&W
> rather than
> grey scale).

Good advice. Most people know by now that PDF can encode this directly too.

 > If there are photographs then you might want 8-bit grey
> scale
> (although I've very rarely found it to make any difference, other than
> to
> file size).
>
> I tend to scan @ 600dpi but anything above 400dpi seems visually
> acceptable
> (to me, I've no idea what anyone else thinks).

I agree. Diminishing returns, 400dpi is fully adequate for text. Any 
more and the resulting files become cumbersome to store and especially 
read (relatively slow e-readers are becoming commonplace!)

Pay attention to diagrams with fine lines. In tricky cases, changing the 
black/white threshold might be necessary to prevent dropouts. For this 
reason it can be good to scan in grey scale for later processing based 
on evaluating some pages (possible resolution reduction, thresholding, 
and compression).

--Toby

>
> If you have colour photographs then you probably want JPEG, but only for
> those
> pages. For DEC manuals, I've mostly found that only the covers need
> colour
> scanning. There are some software manuals that have mostly black text
> with the
> occasional smattering of colour (or worse, blocks of text with a
> background colour)
> but I've never found a good way of handling those and preserving the
> colour.
>
> As for the actual scanning, I'm afraid I cannot help: my scanner
> delivers the
> resulting TIFF-wrapped-in-PDF via FTP :-)
>
> Antonio
>
>
>
>



From csquared3 at tx.rr.com  Sat Dec 31 09:05:25 2011
From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (Charlie Carothers)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:05:25 -0600
Subject: Infocom and DECUS Mini-Tasker
In-Reply-To: <4EFE5FFD.3020400@dunnington.plus.com>
References: <CAL6A5QZbXhQLzfsJmPMDK0tcAAV43bv477HO1NOUBXBG3VNLYg@mail.gmail.com>
 <951872ED3FDB40538705CA7CF7D9C6B1@ANTONIOPC>
 <CAApARttoRWF1kE2hWd1kxtjc73v=nXHVEMN-Y_c9nL6G16kdgA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFE5FFD.3020400@dunnington.plus.com>
Message-ID: <4EFF24B5.9050802@tx.rr.com>

On 12/30/2011 7:06 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> Rob wrote:
>> On 30 December 2011 22:00, <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote:
>>> I've tried to reach that site before and failed: it?s still failing for
>>> me now,
>>> although I assume it must have worked for Rick (and presumably Tim).
>>>
>>> I assume that I'm in a range of blocked IP addresses: does it work for
>>> anyone else in the UK? (Does anyone have a mirror?)
>>
>> Confirmed that it fails for me in the UK too, just sits there and
>> eventually times out. But it loads up fine via a US VPN. (Or at
>> least that particular link does.) Why block anybody? Not even a
>> redirect to an explanation.
>
> I can't get to it from home, but I can from york.ac.uk
> I wonder if it's an unofficial server with restriction to academic
> sites? At York, we often put restrictions in place on web servers other
> than the official one, as a matter of curse.

For what it's worth, I had no problem accessing it from my home here in 
the USA with RoadRunner as my ISP, so it's apparently not an academic 
restriction.
-- 
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!


From billdeg at degnanco.com  Sat Dec 31 09:16:50 2011
From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:16:50 -0500
Subject: 4x16K Datacraft core memory rack units available
In-Reply-To: <mailman.29.1325336183.1045.cctech@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.29.1325336183.1045.cctech@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <201112311517.pBVFH8TB047885@billy.ezwind.net>


> > These are general purpose core that can be used in more than just the
> > Burroughs minis they came from. ?I know for example that a rack like this
> > could be used with an S-100 computer or 8008 system.
>
>What Burroughs minis?

6000 series I assume, specifically I was told these came from a 
prototype system (?) from the early 1970's, and were then surplused 
after light use.  I don't have confirmation on that.  They could be 
used in a PDP 11/45 (?), IBM 3179, and I know first-hand that they 
can be adapted for use in a microprocessor system as others of this 
same model were used in a 8008 system (I think) homebrew project or 
two that I have seen.  Late core-era adaptable memory. If I get more 
info I will let you know.

I still have at least one partial rack available if anyone is 
interested contact me directly.

Bill 




From jeff.ogden at umich.edu  Sat Dec 31 09:42:05 2011
From: jeff.ogden at umich.edu (Jeff Ogden)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:42:05 -0500
Subject: scanning and conversion questions
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <F5FF0884-06DE-42AF-9D95-2E1F9DC77D35@umich.edu>

On Dec 31, 2011, at 4:50 AM, David Griffith wrote:
> Since several people here do this kind of thing, I figured I'd ask here.
> 
> I'm trying my hand at scanning stuff to PDF.  The only thing I seem to find for doing this in Linux is Simple Simple Scan.  I'm scanning in photo mode because text mode is unacceptably grainy.  My problem now is converting the resulting jpg into a pdf.  ImageMagick is the obvious tool for this, but no matter what I do, the resulting pdf is grainy.  How can I tell ImageMagick to not diddle with the quality?
> 
> -- 
> David Griffith

There are some notes about this on the home page of bitsavers.org.  Among other things they say:

Post-processing is done using Lemkesoft's Graphic Converter
TIFF to PDF conversion is done using Eric Smith's tumble

The preferred form for any contributed text scan is as a collection of lossless
Group 4 fax compression (ITU-T recommendation T.6) images saved as TIFF
files with a minium scan resolution of 400 dpi.

Lower scan resolutions produce noticable artifacts if a page needs to be
straightened in post-processing.

Lossy compression formats, such as JPEG, should NEVER be used to save pages
of text, since the compression format destroys edge resolution and contrast
would make it difficult to OCR in the future. 

 -Jeff




From oe5ewl at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 10:52:37 2011
From: oe5ewl at gmail.com (Wolfgang Eichberger)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 17:52:37 +0100
Subject: (OT) New Years greetings
Message-ID: <CANJYbi_t74w6Ek3rvn+iM+jt3dFv7nnbfsyVbmjxhtyS=0QWbg@mail.gmail.com>

My best wishes for the new year 2012 fly out to all subscribers of this
nice list! Time to say thank you to all who contributed and helped out with
the questions I had!

Have a nice new-years celebration and day,
 Regards,
 Wolfgang


--
Wolfgang Eichberger - OE5EWL
Operating System Collector
Blog: 5ewl.blogspot.com
Homepage: www.eichberger.org


From aek at bitsavers.org  Sat Dec 31 11:54:41 2011
From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:54:41 -0800
Subject: John Sculley interview part 1 posted
In-Reply-To: <CALfYgtkHYGfkLtKNyeqNPgPb-3nNt2n4cr3jSj4fBgZ06EYQxQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CC627707-B4D6-4844-9BD0-7A43766ACA84@classiccomputing.com>
 <CALfYgtkHYGfkLtKNyeqNPgPb-3nNt2n4cr3jSj4fBgZ06EYQxQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFF4C61.2020801@bitsavers.org>

On 12/31/11 3:18 AM, Dave Caroline wrote:

> At 5 minutes the guest has still not had chance to say anything the
> interviewer needs to get the guest to speak

I got as far as when he started with "all I thought you ever did was fire Steve Jobs and ruin Apple"

I don't care what you think of the guy, but that was just insulting.

--al (who was there from 1986-2005)




From als at thangorodrim.de  Sat Dec 31 11:56:29 2011
From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:56:29 +0100
Subject: scanning and conversion questions
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
Message-ID: <20111231175628.GA11632@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 01:50:58AM -0800, David Griffith wrote:
> 
> Since several people here do this kind of thing, I figured I'd ask here.
> 
> I'm trying my hand at scanning stuff to PDF.  The only thing I seem
> to find for doing this in Linux is Simple Simple Scan.  I'm scanning
> in photo mode because text mode is unacceptably grainy.  My problem
> now is converting the resulting jpg into a pdf.  ImageMagick is the
> obvious tool for this, but no matter what I do, the resulting pdf is
> grainy.  How can I tell ImageMagick to not diddle with the quality?

For my archive, the scan workflow is:
 - use scanimage to get a (set of) 600 dpi bilevel (monochrome) scan(s) at
   A4 size
 - deskew the scans using tiff_findskew, gm convert and pnmrotate
 - convert tiff(s) to Fax G4 compression
 - build a tar archive of the tiff(s) in case I need it later (e.g. OCR)
 - use tumble to produce a (multipage) pdf from the tiff file(s)
 - use cjb2 and djvm to create djvu a file
 - dump the resulting tar, pdf and djvu files into a git repository
   that is replicated over several machines (and also goes out to tape)

The above has, of course, been scripted appropriately since I'm lazy ;-)
Scripts available on request.

Kind regards,
            Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison


From g-wright at att.net  Sat Dec 31 12:02:11 2011
From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:02:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
Message-ID: <1325354531.86657.YahooMailRC@web83814.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Josh,   I would love to get your 64FDC for my Cromemco 
68020 machine that is missing one.  I have 16 FDC and 
other Croemeco Z-80 Boards to go along with it.  

- Jerry

  





________________________________
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu>
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Fri, December 30, 2011 10:43:21 PM
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC

Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80 BASIC?

What I've got running at the moment is a mongrel IMSAI 8080 with a Z80, 48K of 
working memory and a serial port.  My eventual goal is to get CP/M running on it 
(I have a Cromemco 64FDC -- anyone know of either an official CP/M for this or 
know of a BIOS that supports this controller before I start writing my own?) but 
for the time being I thought it would be fun to get a BASIC running on it.

The catch is I need something I can adapt to the serial I/O on the Cromemco 
controller -- so something that I can pretty easily modify is of course 
preferable.  (I'm not opposed to manually hacking up a binary but having an 
official source listing to start with would save time :))

I started looking at the IMSAI 8K basic listing but there's a fair amount of 
hardware-specific I/O code in it scattered throughout so I'm not thrilled about 
modifying it... (and the only source listing I can find is in a PDF, which 
doesn't help any...)

Thanks,
Josh


From david at classiccomputing.com  Sat Dec 31 12:34:02 2011
From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:34:02 -0500
Subject: John Sculley interview part 1 posted
In-Reply-To: <mailman.27.1325320911.1045.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.27.1325320911.1045.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <813788C2-67D4-46D0-92A4-0D92FD8F4368@classiccomputing.com>


>> Please have a listen when you can.  [...]
> 
>> http://bit.ly/tmoDTL
> 
> I had a look, but lynx didn't show me anything useful.  Manually
> fetching and looking at it, I don't see anything amid the blizzard of
> HTML that I recognize as a reference to a soundfile - y'know, something
> listenable on classic computers (many of which, eg, my SPARCs, do have
> sound output hardware).  But I'm probably missing something, because I
> also see some things that look like errors to my minimal knowledge of
> HTML, things like <a href='$manage-app-url$'>.
> 
> So, where's the soundfile hiding?

Hi Mouse,

Sorry, I'm not so good at the tech of RSS and so on . . . that's why I use a Mac and iWeb, etc. But . . . I also post the files somewhere so they can be directly downloaded, so please try here - https://public.me.com/dgreelish

Best,

David Greelish, Computer Historian
President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society

Classic Computing
The Home of Computer History Nostalgia
http://www.classiccomputing.com

Classic Computing Blog
Retro Computing Roundtable podcast
"Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast
Classic Computing Show video podcast




From david at classiccomputing.com  Sat Dec 31 12:41:57 2011
From: david at classiccomputing.com (David Greelish)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:41:57 -0500
Subject: John Sculley interview part 1 posted
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1325354400.74599.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
References: <mailman.1.1325354400.74599.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <41FE618D-70B4-43C3-A8FA-D4B86B446209@classiccomputing.com>

>> At 5 minutes the guest has still not had chance to say anything the
>> interviewer needs to get the guest to speak

After the long introduction, I almost don't speak at all! The interview isn't just for hard core computer history enthusiasts, but also for a mainstream audience.

> I got as far as when he started with "all I thought you ever did was fire Steve Jobs and ruin Apple"
> 
> I don't care what you think of the guy, but that was just insulting.

It was a joke, and John laughed at it. I then made sure to say to both the audience and John that I was joking. If you had listened to the introduction then you would have heard where I made it clear that I was a fan of John Sculley's and etc. Also, that I thought he was getting a bad rap. These are exactly the two main misconceptions which the interview addresses.

Best,

David Greelish, Computer Historian
President, Atlanta Historical Computing Society

Classic Computing
The Home of Computer History Nostalgia
http://www.classiccomputing.com

Classic Computing Blog
Retro Computing Roundtable podcast
"Stan Veit's History of the Personal Computer" audiobook podcast
Classic Computing Show video podcast






From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 12:58:44 2011
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:58:44 +0000
Subject: scanning and conversion questions
In-Reply-To: <20111231175628.GA11632@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.00.1112310142290.30205@sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>
 <20111231175628.GA11632@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de>
Message-ID: <CALfYgt=PrC40o8NrbBRQwoQ02LHMGxP=rr+y9eZBM5QFLbj_dg@mail.gmail.com>

I feel the loss of detail by scanning bilevel can throw information
away, this is especially important with
circuit diagrams and images, while automation may speed up the work
some attention to detail is required else the end product will be less
than useful. I currently stay with manual scanning and greyscale . and
dont squeeze a quart into a pint pot.
As for PDF and and slow memory hog PDF readers/display programs I
think it may be time to wean users away asap.

I have recently tried diva as an online display tool
the following manual is incomplete, all I have, source is a poor
photocopy but the diagrams are just about readable
http://www.collection.archivist.info/diva/systrondonner1626.html

direct link to part of the diagram

http://www.collection.archivist.info/diva/systrondonner1626.html#p=138&z=4

another complete with colour
http://www.collection.archivist.info/diva/lucastp1.html

The system uses tiled tiff
https://github.com/DDMAL/diva.js/wiki

Main advantage is no need to download a full pdf, light load on the
server, fast viewing.
can give direct links to a page and zoom
option can have two panels to view setup and diagram at the same time.

btw the above demos are hosted on an ADSL line 7.65meg down .35meg up
(long way to the exchange)

Dave Caroline


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 31 13:54:29 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:54:29 -0800
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <c70bb4abd281fc9186f148d3fb7f8f87@mdfs.net>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
 <c70bb4abd281fc9186f148d3fb7f8f87@mdfs.net>
Message-ID: <4EFF6875.7070300@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/31/2011 2:33 AM, J.G.Harston wrote:
> Josh Dersch wrote:
>> Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80 
>> BASIC?
>
> BBC BASIC: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/Z80/
>

Very cool, I had no idea BBC basic was freely available (and easily 
portable :)).  Thanks for the suggestion!

- Josh


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 31 13:57:54 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:57:54 -0800
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <CB248623.3E39%rich.cini@verizon.net>
References: <CB248623.3E39%rich.cini@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <4EFF6942.6020904@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/31/2011 6:35 AM, Richard Cini wrote:
> Josh --
>
> 	There are a few BASICS that I can think of: TinyBASIC, Denver BASIC,
> Lawrence Livermore BASIC, and MINOL TinyBASIC. Some require working disk
> drives to load/save (and thus, CP/M), but if you get them working you can
> just use your laptop to capture a listing (the "save") and re-upload it
> (like typing it in, the "load").Not 100% elegant, but it works.
>
> Rich

Thanks!  I'll look into those as well.

- Josh



From dm561 at torfree.net  Sat Dec 31 14:15:03 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:15:03 -0500
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
References: <mailman.27.1325320911.1045.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <F837B2EBCB584E6884D31E43848DCC56@vl420mt>

----- Original Messsage:
Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:43:21 -0800
From: Josh Dersch <derschjo at mail.msu.edu>

Anyone have any recommendations for a reasonably featured 8080 or Z80
BASIC?

What I've got running at the moment is a mongrel IMSAI 8080 with a Z80,
48K of working memory and a serial port.  My eventual goal is to get
CP/M running on it (I have a Cromemco 64FDC -- anyone know of either an
official CP/M for this or know of a BIOS that supports this controller
before I start writing my own?) but for the time being I thought it
would be fun to get a BASIC running on it.

<snip>
Thanks,
Josh
----- Reply:

Just curious:
Does your memory configuration support swapping out the RDOS boot/monitor 
ROM?
And what drive(s) do you have connected? As you probably know, the FDC 
supports 5.25"DD as well as 8" and the 3.5 and 5.25" HD equivalents.

I haven't seen any standalone BASIC versions for the FDC; there are at least 
two versions of BASIC for the Cromemco, but AFAIK they both require a 
bootable CDOS disk. However, unless they use any of the extra calls in CDOS 
I wouldn't be surprised if they worked just as well with CP/M.

In addition to Cromemco's CDOS CP/M equivalent AFAIK there were also at 
least two official third-party CP/M implementations for the FDC and one or 
two hacked BIOSes, but there may be compatibility issues among the three 
different versions of the FDC.

Interesting though; I'll have to look around...






From dm561 at torfree.net  Sat Dec 31 14:15:37 2011
From: dm561 at torfree.net (MikeS)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:15:37 -0500
Subject: 4x16K Datacraft core memory rack units available
References: <mailman.1.1325354400.74599.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Message-ID: <4E8A6BD8B76F4742819AB48FDAD384AB@vl420mt>

----- Original message:
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:16:50 -0500
From: B Degnan <billdeg at degnanco.com>
To: cctech at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: 4x16K Datacraft core memory rack units available
Message-ID: <201112311517.pBVFH8TB047885 at billy.ezwind.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed


> > These are general purpose core that can be used in more than just the
> > Burroughs minis they came from. ?I know for example that a rack like
> > this
> > could be used with an S-100 computer or 8008 system.
>
>What Burroughs minis?

6000 series I assume, specifically I was told these came from a
prototype system (?) from the early 1970's, and were then surplused
after light use.

-------------
I'd hardly call a Burroughs 6x00 a "mini"...

http://www.retrocomputingtasmania.com/home/projects/burroughs-b6700-mainframe



From legalize at xmission.com  Sat Dec 31 14:33:18 2011
From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:33:18 -0700
Subject: scanning and conversion questions
In-Reply-To: <9586467B685849F792CA0C405FECF717@ANTONIOPC>
References: <9586467B685849F792CA0C405FECF717@ANTONIOPC>
Message-ID: <E1Rh5cE-0001nD-0v@shell.xmission.com>


In article <9586467B685849F792CA0C405FECF717 at ANTONIOPC>,
    <arcarlini at iee.org> writes:

> grey scale). If there are photographs then you might want 8-bit grey
> scale
> (although I've very rarely found it to make any difference, other than
> to
> file size).

In my experience, scanning in grayscale or color for photographs is
essential to making the photographs useful.  On the other hand,
scanning in B&W is essential for good text representation for OCR, so
if you're looking at documents that mix lots of text and photos,
you're in a quandary about which to do.  What I do is scan such pages
twice.  My intention is to have a PDF that layers the grayscale photo
on top of the B&W text page, but I haven't figured out the best way to
do that yet.
-- 
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
 <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>

      Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>


From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 31 14:19:36 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:19:36 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH-F8vRqXdTh8e3QJEzJtLG=wyv4gZO3pnbR2-rgKd=-w@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Liam Proven" at Dec 31, 11 12:32:50 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rh5P1-000J4AC@p850ug1>

> BBC BASIC was far & away the best BASIC of the 1980s and one of the

Was it? I would claim Microware's BASIC-09 would give it serious competition.

Both had named subprograms (procedures, whatvery you want to call them), 
formal parameters and local variables. 

BBC BASIC gaisn by being interpretted (so it's 'interactive', you can 
try things out at the keybaord), and by having the built-in assembler

BASIC-09 gains by having user-defined types, but not requiring line 
numbewrs and by being able ot call routines from other BASIC-09 files, or 
from other languages.

I like them both (and they are way ahead of Microsoft's interpretted 
BASIC of the time, I'll grant that).

-tony



From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk  Sat Dec 31 14:25:00 2011
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:25:00 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: (OT) New Years greetings
In-Reply-To: <CANJYbi_t74w6Ek3rvn+iM+jt3dFv7nnbfsyVbmjxhtyS=0QWbg@mail.gmail.com> from
 "Wolfgang Eichberger" at Dec 31, 11 05:52:37 pm
Message-ID: <m1Rh5UG-000J4BC@p850ug1>

> 
> My best wishes for the new year 2012 fly out to all subscribers of this
> nice list! Time to say thank you to all who contributed and helped out with
> the questions I had!
> 
> Have a nice new-years celebration and day,

Thank you.

I must say I find it strange to celebrate a particular carry in a rather 
odd way of numbering periods of time, but that said, may I also wish all 
memebrs of this list a happy new year, and that 2012 brings yet more 
classic computing.

For those of you with HP59309 clocks, don't forget to flip the little 
swithc to '366' for next year :-)



-tony


From radioengr at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 15:05:59 2011
From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:05:59 -0700
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EFB35A0.26487.14103A0@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFF7937.4030200@gmail.com>

On 12/30/2011 8:41 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote:
> The seller sent me this info.
>
> Hi the info i have is a Quantum Q2000 model #Q2020 serial# 6074 dated 2-9-82
> scanner#1
> cyclinder head drive is error free
> the printer has a plate that says novell data systems
> model 800S
> serial # 2141
> vac115
> hertz60
> made in USA
> i havent gotten to the manuels and floppys yet i will try to send you
> some pictures. thanks stan
>
>
> I ask for info off the disks....
>
> Enclosed is the info off the manuals and diskettes the pictures will
> follow.thanks stan
>
>
> Novell 2010 system operators manual preliminary
> dated dec. 7 1981
> first in its class of desktop computers
> 15 inch display winchester drive and cp/m operating system
>
> Supercale manual, diskette unopened by sorcim
> licenced fmt IBM 3740 serial 100-801 ver 1.04
> dated 7-1981 plus registration card
>
> Micropro Datastar unopened
> Datastar 1.101 diskette and manual
> DS7307KS plus registration card dated 9-23-80
>
> Supersort 1.6 Operators Handbook and programmers guide
> Dated 9-30-81
> wordstar for Nexus 1 installation manual
>
> I am beginning to think he is a real seller, misguided about the price.
>
> Paxton

As my daddy used to say, "Don't ascribe to malice what can as easily be
ascribed to ignorance..." (or incompetence - depending on the situation)

Rob.


From LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM  Sat Dec 31 15:07:43 2011
From: LYNCHAJ at YAHOO.COM (Andrew Lynch)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:07:43 -0500
Subject: XT-IDE V2 PCBs
Message-ID: <000d01ccc800$4a3193a0$de94bae0$@YAHOO.COM>

Hi!? I just received an email from the PCB manufacturer and they?ve shipped
the XT-IDE V2 PCBs.? 

These PCBs allow you to use parallel IDE drives (or CF with adapters) on 8
bit ISA bus legacy PC/XT or similar computers.

Generally speaking, the XT-IDE with parallel IDE drives and/or CF adapters
are more reliable and readily available than legacy ST506/ST412 MFM/RLL hard
drive subsystems.

As before, these PCBs will be $12 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5
elsewhere.

These are the Do-It-Yourself PCBs based on the plain TTL chip technology
like the XT-IDE V1 boards.? 

More information can be found here

http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/w/browse/#view=ViewFolder&param=XT-IDE%20V2

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch




From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 31 15:24:36 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:24:36 -0800
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <F837B2EBCB584E6884D31E43848DCC56@vl420mt>
References: <mailman.27.1325320911.1045.cctalk@classiccmp.org>
 <F837B2EBCB584E6884D31E43848DCC56@vl420mt>
Message-ID: <4EFF7D94.20309@mail.msu.edu>



On 12/31/2011 12:15 PM, MikeS wrote:
>
> ----- Reply:
>
> Just curious:
> Does your memory configuration support swapping out the RDOS 
> boot/monitor ROM?

Not at the moment, I haven't quite worked out if this can be made to 
work properly with non-Cromemco memory boards.  The 64FDC manual 
suggests "Set[ting] the switches on the RAM board(s) so that memory from 
8000h to FFFFh is disabled..." which implies that the boards must 
support some way of re-enabling the memory via software (for when the 
FDC's ROM is disabled via a write to port 40h).

I'm wondering if this board isn't really optimal for this setup -- it 
seems very geared toward having a complete Cromemco setup, which I do 
not have.

I do have an IMSAI MIO and a Tarbell 1011D, which seem more 
period-appropriate for the era.  The MIO has got to be the most 
difficult to configure board I have ever seen.  I've modified wire-wrap 
backplanes with less hassle than this thing.  There must be 50 or more 
(poorly labeled) jumpers on this board and the manual is not the most 
friendly I've ever seen (it doesn't help that the PDF I have has the 
pages in the wrong order).  (Anyone out there have experience with this 
board?  I don't really care much about getting the Cassette I/O or 
parallel I/O working, I just want a serial port for the time being...)  
I just need to spend more time studying the manual, I'm sure :).


> And what drive(s) do you have connected? As you probably know, the FDC 
> supports 5.25"DD as well as 8" and the 3.5 and 5.25" HD equivalents.

None at the moment, but I'm planning on connecting a 5.25" drive in the 
near future.


>
> I haven't seen any standalone BASIC versions for the FDC; there are at 
> least two versions of BASIC for the Cromemco, but AFAIK they both 
> require a bootable CDOS disk. However, unless they use any of the 
> extra calls in CDOS I wouldn't be surprised if they worked just as 
> well with CP/M.

For right now, I was just planning on assembling a raw binary image and 
using a PC (with a bit of hacked together software) to push the image 
into the IMSAI's memory via the 64FDC's serial port, using the onboard 
monitor commands.  Just for fun :).


>
> In addition to Cromemco's CDOS CP/M equivalent AFAIK there were also 
> at least two official third-party CP/M implementations for the FDC and 
> one or two hacked BIOSes, but there may be compatibility issues among 
> the three different versions of the FDC.

If you know of a source for images of these third-party CP/Ms, let me 
know.  Dave Dunfield's site has a CP/M for the 16FDC, which as far as I 
can tell (from a cursory glance at the manuals) has identical I/O port 
behavior to the 64FDC so I may just be able to use that, assuming I can 
write the 8" image to a 5.25" floppy.

>
> Interesting though; I'll have to look around...
>
>

Thanks!
Josh


From derschjo at mail.msu.edu  Sat Dec 31 15:25:44 2011
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 13:25:44 -0800
Subject: (OT) New Years greetings
In-Reply-To: <m1Rh5UG-000J4BC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rh5UG-000J4BC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <4EFF7DD8.3030307@mail.msu.edu>

On 12/31/2011 12:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>> For those of you with HP59309 clocks, don't forget to flip the little
>> swithc to '366' for next year :-)

Thanks for the reminder :).  I have one on my desk at work...

(And happy new year to you all as well.  May all your hacks be righteous.)

- Josh

>
>
>
> -tony
>


From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk  Sat Dec 31 15:48:56 2011
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 21:48:56 +0000
Subject: DiscFerret: It just keeps getting better...!
Message-ID: <4EFF8348.8050101@philpem.me.uk>

Hello, folks!

Hope you all had a very merry Christmas, happy Hanukkah, or whatever you
celebrated! Also, best wishes for the New Year, which will be... in
around two and a quarter hours in my neck of the woods :)

It's been a while since I posted anything related to DiscFerret. Rest
assured, I have not been resting on my laurels (Balrog and Lord
Nightmare have made certain of that!). In fact, I've just released a
shiny new toy for all you DiscFerret owners... Well, two actually!


Microcode Release 0026 and C-API 1.3!


New in these releases...:

  - Microcode:
    - Added a clock divider to the Data Acquisition core. Now you can
specify how much timing resolution you need -- 80ns (12.5MHz), 40ns
(25MHz), 20ns (50MHz) or the full 10ns (100MHz). When set to 40ns, the
DiscFerret matches the Kryoflux for read speed (84 tracks double-sided
in one minute and 45 seconds). At full resolution, it still only takes
three minutes and 25 seconds to image the same disc.

    - Completely rewrote the data sync-word detector. All the ripple
clocks and clock-domain crossings are gone, and the data separator is
FAR more reliable. The capture and lock range is about 20% of the
nominal data rate (!), which is more than adequate for most disc drives.
The sync word may be up to 16 bits long, and can also include "don't
care" bits!

    - Miscellaneous fixes to the data separator configuration (it was
set for a 16MHz clock, but provided with a 20MHz clock. Despite this, it
still worked fine!)


  - C/C++ API
    - Support added for the new clock divider register.


Files are all downloadable from the usual place --
  http://www.discferret.com/
(or more specifically:)
  http://www.discferret.com/wiki/DiscFerret:Downloads

And you can, as always, browse the source code here --
  http://hg.discferret.com/


On the cards for the New Year --
  - Work has started on a new, simplified API. This will make its grand
d?but some time in the new year.
  - I'm working on improving the accuracy of the INDEX pulse storage
logic. When finished, this will improve the accuracy of INDEX timing
measurements to match the data timing measurements!  (This is a minimum
of a factor of 8 improvement over the KryoFlux analyser, and a factor of
128 improvement over the current microcode release!)


Special thanks for this release are due to:
  Rich Thomson,
  Karsten Scheibler,
  Sarayan,
  Balrog,
  Lord_Nightmare,
  ... and anyone else I've forgotten!


Thanks!
-- 
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/



From lproven at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 17:04:14 2011
From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 23:04:14 +0000
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <m1Rh5P1-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <CAMTenCH-F8vRqXdTh8e3QJEzJtLG=wyv4gZO3pnbR2-rgKd=-w@mail.gmail.com>
 <m1Rh5P1-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <CAMTenCEXqMpbL5_OhwJaxxL_Deo1XrfuH+WnpoCwzYTzXCZeRg@mail.gmail.com>

On Dec 31, 2011 8:39 PM, "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > BBC BASIC was far & away the best BASIC of the 1980s and one of the
>
> Was it? I would claim Microware's BASIC-09 would give it serious
competition.
>
> Both had named subprograms (procedures, whatvery you want to call them),
> formal parameters and local variables.
>
> BBC BASIC gaisn by being interpretted (so it's 'interactive', you can
> try things out at the keybaord), and by having the built-in assembler
>
> BASIC-09 gains by having user-defined types, but not requiring line
> numbewrs and by being able ot call routines from other BASIC-09 files, or
> from other languages.
>
> I like them both (and they are way ahead of Microsoft's interpretted
> BASIC of the time, I'll grant that).

Never even heard of that one, but then, I've never seen or used OS/9 I'm my
life. Never owned a Dragon or any other 6809 box.

I know it runs on later kit, but I fear that by the 1980s I was working
with x86 & the occasional Mac. (A tiny bit of VAX, and single one-off jobs
on a single PDP/11, a single AS/400, a single S/36, a single RTPC, etc.)

Any excursions into SPARC or anything else have been me seizing the chance
to play with something unusual... And OS/9 is just too rare. Never come
across it.


From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to  Sat Dec 31 18:07:48 2011
From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:07:48 -0500
Subject: CP/M disk format: need help
In-Reply-To: <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
References: <009401ccc4c7$0e5095c0$2af1c140$@lazzerini@tiscali.it>
 <20111228113143.W16996@shell.lmi.net>
Message-ID: <4EFFA3D4.8030903@compsys.to>

 >Fred Cisin wrote:

>WHAT brand and model computer are you talking about?
>
>
>On Tue, 27 Dec 2011, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
>  
>
>>Well this is all i know:
>>8"
>>STAT d:DSK:
>>9600 r:  128  Byte  Record  Capacity
>>1200 k:  Kilobyte  Drive  Capacity
>>128  d:  32  Byte  Directory  Entries
>>128  c:  Checked  Directory  Entries
>>128  e:  Records/  Extent
>>16   b:  Records/  Block
>>64   s:  Sectors/  Track
>>2    t:  Reserved  Tracks
>>2        SIDES
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>This is that I calculate:
>>BEGIN SCO2 (1024 bytes/sector) - DSDD 8"
>>DENSITY MFM ,HIGH
>>    
>>
>
>1200K disk capacity is close to maximum for an 8" diskette.
>It is what you expect from 8" DSDD.  "High" would be incorrect usage, but
>from a 5.25" perspective, it fits.
>  
>
The DEC  RX02 8" SSDD floppy held 988 data blocks of 512 bytes or
505,856 bytes.  While DEC never supported the RX03, the extra code
was included in V04.00 of RT-11, but was removed in V05.00 of RT-11.

The DSD 880/30 had a single functional RX03 floppy drive which could
be used as equivalent to the RX02 drive under RT-11.  The RX03 drive
supported the use of a DSDD 8" floppy with 1976 data blocks of
512 bytes or 1,011,712 bytes.

Under DSDD, I believe that each sector was 256 bytes and that
2 sectors were required for each block.  The interleave was every
other sector to allow the silo in the controller to be unloaded into
the user buffer.  Unfortunately, the DEC  RX02 Qbus controller
never supported 22 bit user buffer addresses.  However, it was
possible to have a bounce buffer available to the device driver
which could hold the contents of the silo after which the bounce
buffer could be transferred to the user buffer while the silo was
being filled again - during read operations of course.

I presume that larger sectors with fewer inter sector gaps would
have allowed higher capacity.  However, the DEC RX02 controllers
had silos of 256 bytes which required the sectors to be the same size.

>  
>
>>CYLINDERS 77 SIDES 1 SECTORS 8,1024
>>    
>>
>NO.
>You can not get 1200K disk capacity from single sided.
>
>  
>
>>SIDE1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
>>SIDE2 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9
>>    
>>
>Those are 10 sectors per side.  You said 8
>Are you sure that that is the sector sequence?
>
>  
>
>>Here what 22disk tell me:
>>http://elazzerini.interfree.it/Foto2982.jpg
>>Where I'm wrong?
>>    
>>
>
>1) Instead of transcribing some text, you sent a URL to a picture that is
>more than 2 MEGAbytes.  (a photograph of your screen?)
>THANK YOU for sending the URL instead of attaching it!
>	A) Not everybody reads their mail in a web browser.  Sending a URL
>	requires cut and paste to get it TO the web browser.
>	B) Believe it or not, some of us use dial-up!  2M takes too long.
>	C) Surely that file could be MUCH smaller.  Thats a kilobyte for
>	each character on the screen.
>Was it an error message?   That would only call for a few lines of text.
>Was it a scrambled display, such as non-ASCII characters in filenames?
>
>
>2) You are posting asking for technical support for an unregistered copy
>of a program on a forum where the author is an active participant!  If you
>REGISTER the program, then he will provide support, maybe even an updated
>copy of the program, etc. (It may have additional formats now!)
>
>
>You didn't tell us the name of the format.
>You didn't tell us the form of your calculations.  Were they a wild
>guess? or did you look at sectors on the disk to determine them?
>What "side-pattern" is it?  Does it alternate sides before incrementing
>cylinder, or does it increment cylinder first, and use the first side
>before starting on the second?  Does it then go UP the second side, or
>DOWN?
>You didn't provide us with hex dumps of the directory sectors.  NO, DO NOT
>SEND US MORE PHOTOGRAPHS!   If the problem is in the directory, then
>let's see THAT!   It's 32 bytes per directory entry/extent - depending on
>what the problem is, it might not take more than a few.
>



From toby at telegraphics.com.au  Sat Dec 31 19:27:37 2011
From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 20:27:37 -0500
Subject: Computer like no other,unique
In-Reply-To: <4EFF7937.4030200@gmail.com>
References: <CALfYgtmqt8EK0uJdU5+HcCp2ht9Baqhy0=hC1Na4o8QPrjYYGA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFB2A05.25063.113ADBB@cclist.sydex.com>
 <20111228145144.E16996@shell.lmi.net>
 <4EFB35A0.26487.14103A0@cclist.sydex.com>
 <CAL2B=mH422MSu3-EZagsPhV2ZgQHOsg4+VSGr7bFX+3QyrXCXA@mail.gmail.com>
 <4EFF7937.4030200@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EFFB689.6060307@telegraphics.com.au>

On 31/12/11 4:05 PM, Rob Doyle wrote:
> On 12/30/2011 8:41 PM, Paxton Hoag wrote:
>> The seller sent me this info.
>>...
>> I am beginning to think he is a real seller, misguided about the price.
>>
>> Paxton
>
> As my daddy used to say, "Don't ascribe to malice what can as easily be
> ascribed to ignorance..." (or incompetence - depending on the situation)

I never meant to imply that the auction wasn't genuine. Just that the 
language is disturbingly reminiscent of 419s. It may just be the 
seller's personality coming through, even if this one is a real listing.

--T

>
> Rob.
>



From iamcamiel at gmail.com  Sat Dec 31 12:22:34 2011
From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:22:34 +0100
Subject: IBM 360 model 65 docs wanted
In-Reply-To: <1325287989.31824.35.camel@entasis>
References: <02dc01ccc70a$6a067430$3e135c90$@gmail.com>
 <CAMTenCFC9UpK3myx30Sr-GK_QJKz9seZgcBmKy62Y7n8q6KHuA@mail.gmail.com>
 <1325287989.31824.35.camel@entasis>
Message-ID: <CA+0-H5THtcWbzdbayLwoA0eZOEvMds2njvCA-anyk6k=RFXQPA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sat, Dec 31, 2011 at 12:33 AM, Lawrence Wilkinson
<ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk> wrote:
> I was lucky to get microcode listings for the /30, and the internal
> dataflow is documented in the manuals available on BitSavers.
>
> It's one of these things where you have to decide how faithful you want
> your re-creation to be. ?Are you going to attempt to model the
> multi-function lights, so you can flip the rollers around? ?Do you want
> an entire CPU hiding behind that panel, or just something to flicker the
> lights appropriately? ?Some of the lights would be for the channels -
> are you going to model those, and if so, what about the peripherals?
> And so on....!

Hi Liam, Lawrence,

Thanks for the encouragements. It seems to me that you've come quite a
way with the FPGA implementation. I've taken the liberty of posting a
link to it on my blog.

I'd like the implementation to be as faithful as I can, but without
the model 65 specific info, I can only make it faithful to the 360
architecture. I definitely want to be able to flip the rollers around
to look at different registers. I'm hoping to get access to ROS (BCROS
in the case of the '65) listings, together with the data flow diagrams
that's probably enough to figure things out (CPU wise, channels are
step 2). If not the listings, then some scans or photographs of each
plane of BCROS should do the trick too. Of course, the easiest to
decipher would be to get access to the whole set of field docs
(maintenance and diagrams manual) and the listings (annotated, while
we're on the subject of what would make life easier).

I am planning to do everything in software (hence the USB interface to
control the lamps and switches). I think my approach would be to take
a working emulator (Hercules) and replace it's cpu implementation with
a new one that matches the model 65's microarchitecture. That should
make it possible to execute instructions one ROS-step at a time. If I
can find the docs, I can also replace the channel implementation in
Hercules. I could hook up a serial terminal as the console ( I don't
have a 2260, and I'm not sure if my wife'd appreciate it if I spent
the next few weeks worth of evenings in my attic creating an interface
for it). For the visibility of tapes, disks, printers and such, I
guess an LCD panel showing some graphics wil have to do.

Incdentally, I've just completed the hardware part of the project;
I've put the new electronics kit together, mounted it inside the panel
and hooked it up to the pc; the hardware bit works perfectly. Need to
update the blog.

Cheers,

Camiel

P.S. I'll make sure to check the museum site you mentioned.



From jgh at mdfs.net  Sat Dec 31 13:25:56 2011
From: jgh at mdfs.net (J.G.Harston)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:25:56 +0000
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <CAMTenCH-F8vRqXdTh8e3QJEzJtLG=wyv4gZO3pnbR2-rgKd=-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4EFEAF09.8040604@mail.msu.edu>
 <c70bb4abd281fc9186f148d3fb7f8f87@mdfs.net>
 <CAMTenCH-F8vRqXdTh8e3QJEzJtLG=wyv4gZO3pnbR2-rgKd=-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8677c5fa22b346887d331f25085774c3@mdfs.net>

Liam Proven wrote:
> J.G.Harston wrote:
>> BBC BASIC: http://mdfs.net/Software/BBCBasic/Z80/
>
> Certainly that's what *I* was going to recommend, but I didn't
> know if source was available.

Why do you need the source? It does everything by calling the
standard CPM entry point at &0005.

If you want a more fully-featured version, there's the BBC Tube
version that calls a jump block at &FFxx for the non-filing
functions, you just need to implement the code that jump block
jumps to.

-- 
J.G.Harston - jgh at mdfs.net - mdfs.net/jgh



From elazzerini at interfree.it  Sat Dec 31 16:37:17 2011
From: elazzerini at interfree.it (Enrico Lazzerini)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 23:37:17 +0100
Subject: CP/M FCB structure (was 22disk & CP/M's diskettes )
Message-ID: <00b501ccc80c$c11fef00$435fcd00$@it>

Hi all,

Some days ago I posted a request to identify the FCB parameters to read
correctly a 8" disk CP/M. 
I know that i was wrong in the subject so I would like to summarize and i
thank you for the suggestions and criticisms.

 

The data obtained directly with the STAT command DSK: are the following:

 

9600: 128 Byte Record Capacity

1200: Kilobyte Drive Capacity

128: 32 Byte Directory Entries

128: Checked Directory Entries

128: Records / Extent

16: Records / Block

64: Sectors / Track

2: Reserved tracks

2 SIDES

 

After further investigation the parameters for the correct reading would
appear as follows:

BEGIN SCO2 (1024 bytes/sector) - 8 DSDD "

MFM DENSITY, HIGH

CYLINDERS 77 SIDES 2 SECTORS 8,1024

Side1 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

Side2 0 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8

ORDER CYLINDERS

BSH 4 BLM 15 EXM 0 DSM 300 DRM 127 AL0 SFO 00H 11110000B AL1 2

END

 

The following additional information which I hope can clarify or help:

 

The inclusion of incorrect data was due to a misreading of my screen on the
console CP/M in the data down the email. The calculations were performed by
acquiring more information from the operating system CP/M manuals which
shows how to derive the parameters needed to compose and then subsequently
identified by extrapolating the FCB. The stat command dsk: when possible on
a working machine that is able to read the disk whose parameters are to be
identified can be useful, but if you can not read the disc seems to have
realized that the only way is to use anadisk and 22disk.

 

Anadisk reports:

Tracks 0 and 1 = single density 26x128byte with OS CP/M that points to a
resident BIOS involved in F800H entry points;

Tracks 2-76 = 8x1024byte double density with directory consists of 2 blocks
2048Byte for a total of 128 entries and the remaining space for data

 

SCO2 means disk2 SCOMAR machine (in Italy there was a PCB derived from the
Ferguson Bigboard I with a different 1797 FDC controller and BIOS and it has
been used to drive a knitting machine now discontinued and no longer
supported)

 

The diskette was created from a friend using software IMD of Dave Dunfield
and myself played on floppy 3.5 "1.44MB respecting the original features (or
almost I hope)

 

With these parameters i was able to read and write to the disk even it
remains some doubt as for example by adding the file to disk MBASIC.COM this
does not seem to properly turn on the machine that uses this disk format

 

Infact the main problem was that probabily the EXM value not make me able to
write files greater than 16KB and the picture visualized the 3 times the
same filename.

 

So any kind of suggestion to understand betfer the FCB structure and
parameters of CP/M will be welcome.

 

 

I would like to thank:

 

- For suggestions

 

allison for the valuable explanations and clarifications which go beyond the
simple description inherent in any textbook

 

Cisin Fred for the tip to detect the possible size of the FCB parameter BLS
analyzing the disk

 

About received criticism may i ask for:

- Could anybody give me the name of sw to reduce the size of a photo?

- And what used to convert it into text easily? (I have not had a chance to
do a dump from the screen)

- Where can I buy the registered version of 22disk or is no longer available
or supported?

 

I apologize again for my poor English that puts me in trouble to fully
understand the criticism received.

 

Have an happy new year 2012 to all.

 

Enrico - Pisa - ITaly



From jgh at mdfs.net  Sat Dec 31 16:51:12 2011
From: jgh at mdfs.net (J.G.Harston)
Date: Sat, 31 Dec 2011 22:51:12 +0000
Subject: Looking for 8080/Z80 BASIC
In-Reply-To: <m1Rh5P1-000J4AC@p850ug1>
References: <m1Rh5P1-000J4AC@p850ug1>
Message-ID: <f0e03928940a5db99b0dfe8085341aec@mdfs.net>

ard wrote:
> BASIC-09 gains by having user-defined types, but not requiring line
> numbewrs

You don't need line numbers in BBC BASIC either if you don't use
GOTO, GOSUB or RESTORE nnnn.

JGH

-- 
J.G.Harston - jgh at mdfs.net - mdfs.net/jgh